# Death of the XC SS?



## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Long blog post, but serious question. Are all single speeds either gonna be or long-forked brapping machines or heavy but versatile steel tanks built with a lean towards possible bike packing?

Nothing left in between for those of us that don't fall in line with those two schools of thought?

Anyone else concerned about all the disappearing stock XC SS options?

Bad Idea Racing: Putting the SS back in "induSStry"


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## Raybum (Apr 16, 2009)

Here in AZ, there is quite a number of us on Vassago SS's (VerHauen's, Jabbers, Opti's,Mooseknuckles). Can't imagine SS going away but definitely more of a niche which is why the big names got out of the game.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Raybum said:


> Here in AZ, there is quite a number of us on Vassago SS's (VerHauen's, Jabbers, Opti's,Mooseknuckles). Can't imagine SS going away but definitely more of a niche which is why the big names got out of the game.


I'd love to see any images of the Optimus Ti's internal dropper cable routing.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Yep, not on board with new geo either. The bike industry force feeds us the latest trends and "standards" and wonders why they are in trouble. A nice, svelte SS with traditional XC geometry will sell, just not enough for a dozen manufacturers to offer one. Thank Dog for the few ti/boutique offerings cause that's becoming the only viable option. In a few years one or two of the manufacturers will drop one into their respective lineups but they will be overweight, under specced pigs. Might be time to crowdfund a SS lineup (said only half in jest). Flame suit donned, take your best shot.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Raybum said:


> Here in AZ, there is quite a number of us on Vassago SS's (VerHauen's, Jabbers, Opti's,Mooseknuckles). Can't imagine SS going away but definitely more of a niche which is why the big names got out of the game.


And the current gen OpTi, (my current ride), is slacker, at 68.5, than the first gen OpTi, at 71, (which I also have, and rode for years), and is designed around a 120mm fork (first gen was around 100mm), with Boost geo and three bottle cage mounts. So more "trail-ish" and very suitable for bikepacking. To me, it's a "do-everything" bike, and I have two different wheelsets for it, and three setups (race, trail and plus).

That said, some of the guys are running them as light as possible (rigid, carbon wheels and parts) and are very fast XC racers on them.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> I'd love to see any images of the Optimus Ti's internal dropper cable routing.


I don't run a dropper, and am not quite sure where it would be routed. There is a hole in the top of the downtube; however, for internal cable routing, so I'm assuming it would go there?


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

waltaz said:


> I don't run a dropper, and am not quite sure where it would be routed. There is a hole in the top of the downtube; however, for internal cable routing, so I'm assuming it would go there?


Dunno.

That's why I wanna see it. There's only one shot of the whole frame on the Vassago site.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

I prefer to build my own SS anyways. The vision that most companies have for a complete bike is far out in left field in my opinion. Your options are generally between something that is stiff and race-y like an AIR9, or something extremely entry level with awful components like the Kona Unit. There are too many requirements when considering a rigid SS, and most completes miss the mark. I want a nice fork that doesn't jar me to death (bye bye Karate Monkey), something with good hub engagement (see ya later Kona Unit), and a frame that rides nice (later, AIR9).


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> Dunno.
> 
> That's why I wanna see it. There's only one shot of the whole frame on the Vassago site.


Here's the hole...









And a shot of the frame/bike:









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> Dunno.
> 
> That's why I wanna see it. There's only one shot of the whole frame on the Vassago site.


And loaded up...









I've got a zillion pics of whatever if you're interested.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

waltaz said:


> Here's the hole...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, that's certainly a place for it to go, but from there... where?

No exit hole?

That DT/BB/ST junction is too tight of a bend for a cable (like way too tight).


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## MudderNutter (Oct 23, 2014)

What about the TI timberjack? Too Long low slack?


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

I think the stock specced SS like the EL Mar and Carve for example, were a great way for beginners to try SS out without investing a lot of money. Most people I know who primarily ride SS though prefer to just start with a bare frame and build it the way they want.

Personally, I love the stability of a slightly slacker rigid SS. I've experienced no downsides with it, even on tight twisty trails. You do have to adapt your cornering technique, and at first the bikes will feel like they handle slow, but once figured out the "slower" handling and stability can be used as an advantage. I also like being able to take a hand off the bike and grab a drink while being in full control, even if it's a little bumpy. 

I don't need a "burly" bike though, and feel the extra weight isn't needed on rigid bikes. I had a ROS 9 and it was a great handling fun bike, but it was just too heavy for XC.

I've tried droppers on SS, and it just seems to counter the simplicity of a rigid SS, so much so that it takes away from the enjoyment.

2 water bottles are also a must have for me.

While big brands aren't offering as many SS, there does seem to be a few brands like Chumba and Vassago offering frames with good geo and features with pricing significantly less than what a custom frame would cost.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

MudderNutter said:


> What about the TI timberjack? Too Long low slack?


It's pretty close, and I almost bought one. The one water bottle in the front triangle killed it for me (small and medium frames). That and there's not a Boost rigid fork out there I'd be willing to use with it (wart-free).

Bad Idea Racing: Bottle Rocket Science


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## Tyrone Shoelaces (Nov 6, 2006)

I've been SS-ing for ~10 years or so and I got into it probably for reasons that many others here have as well i.e. Got bored with regular bikes, and thought a simple SS on my local trails would be a great way to make them feel 'new' again and it sure did. 

My first SS was one of those fairly inexpensive Bianchi SASS's that were around back then. Rigid and steel and cheap...was a great gateway drug to get into it and let me to the typical Ventana El Commandante's, Niner Air 9 Carbons that many here have had and then finally a custom Indy Fab Ti Deluxe 29er that I had built in 2011 and still ride the snot out of today. Such a great bike...

But my Indy Fab was built in 2011 and is nearly 8 year old "dated" (?) geometry. Definitely a bit steeper, not long, not slack (lol)...and definintely not too much clearance in the rear for anything wider than a 2.2 tire on a modern day wide rim if I have the sliders sucked all the way in depending on the gear ratio I am running. When it was built originally, 12x142 was just baaaarely starting to becoming a thing (it does have a 1.5 headtube though) so it was actually built with 135mm spacing, but luckily, through Paragon Machine Works, I was able to purchase some updated slider doo-hicky's from them, swap out my old sliders, and 'modernize' the frame to 142x12 and direct mount brake. No way it can get all boosty though...and yeah, 27.2 seatpost and no internal route anything (which is kinda nice especially with a Ti Erickson Sweetpost).

Anyway, that is likely a frame I'll never get up...but I did get the SS race bug again and recently picked up a caboniumiimmmuminim Pivot LES...room for bigger tires, boost, internal routing for dropper and still a XC geo but definitely slacker and longer than my IF is pretty nice. I'm digging it. Would love an updated Ti IF frame, and this more modern geo spec for sure......

The dissapearance of bikes like that cheap Bianchi makes me wonder how people will 'find' SS again so easily.....


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## MudderNutter (Oct 23, 2014)

Ah, yeah i didn't realize they only had one bottle mount in those sizes. Bummer.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

While definitely not lightweight.....I was bummed when I broke my last Highball Al....since Santa Cruz discontinued it. To stay with SC, I had to up myself to a Chameleon. While overall the bike only gained .50 lbs.....it is way more trail oriented.

Perhaps when the Carbon version of the Chameleon is released, it'll bring the bike back down to XC weights.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Raybum said:


> Here in AZ, there is quite a number of us on Vassago SS's (VerHauen's, Jabbers, Opti's,Mooseknuckles). Can't imagine SS going away but definitely more of a niche which is why the big names got out of the game.


I ride and race a Vassago Verhauen Steel singlespeed. I feel there is no need for any of the big names to get into this market. Just locally here in Phoenix we have Vassago and Roca Roja making Ti singlespeeds. They will put gears on them for you, but only after they give you "that look". These are in fact all they make.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

teamdicky said:


> Well, that's certainly a place for it to go, but from there... where?
> 
> No exit hole?
> 
> That DT/BB/ST junction is too tight of a bend for a cable (like way too tight).


That hole is for a cable for the rear shifter. If you want inter routing for dropper I bet Tom can make that happen on custom basis. Tom added under the down tube mounts to my Verhauen this past fall. Nice to be able to carry 3 water bottles. I ride a small frame. My frame is actually a plus frame as rear will fit a 29x3.0, but spacing is 135 or 142 depending on dropouts. I have 135 in there now and perfer to run a 2.2 rear and 2.35 front.


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## igno-mtb (Jul 18, 2014)

teamdicky said:


> It's pretty close, and I almost bought one. The one water bottle in the front triangle killed it for me (small and medium frames). That and there's not a Boost rigid fork out there I'd be willing to use with it (wart-free).
> 
> Bad Idea Racing: Bottle Rocket Science


You can get the Niner fork now. Boost and 29x3.00 capable. I have it and used to have the older one. This one is a bit more rough


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## jdg (Sep 18, 2007)

I built up a pretty nice Salsa Horsethief last year but really find I like the single speed the most. I don't want a slack bike for most of the riding I do nor do I want the super long wheelbase.
The industry is following the bikepacking and enduro(bro) waves right now.
Ironically the most xc-like offerings are drop-bar bikes.

Would like to see Carver make something moe traditional.
Reeb has some nice looking stuff.
Chumba
Vassago as mentioned 
Is the Stache still ss-able?
Wanted an aluminum Timberjack frame but they don't seem to exist.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

IME I had a hard time finding a frame that was long, low, slack, big travel enough. It'll go down anything here and handles the boringish stuff as well.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

igno-mtb said:


> You can get the Niner fork now. Boost and 29x3.00 capable. I have it and used to have the older one. This one is a bit more rough


That's the Wartfork™ I was referring too. I just can't get over the bike-packing orientated trend to put warts all over everything. I want a bike, not rolling luggage.

I had a couple of the OG Niner carbons before tho. I prefer the ride of the ENVE over them.


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## jbell (Oct 2, 2009)

I have been on a lot of SS frames over the years, but up until my latest they have all been very XC. Short front centers, steep HT, that kind of stuff. The end of last race season I sold my Tranny 29 and built a Kona Raijin and honestly it is the BEST geometry I have ever ridden. I have it set up with a 100mm Step Cast so it retained the 69* HT angle, I did not want to go any slacker and really don't need 120mm.

Coming from the more traditional frame geometries I immediately noticed the difference, in a very good way. I suppose you can say it tracks better in rough terrain, just holds a line better with less effort.

I too have lamented over the lack of XC oriented single speed specific factory frame offerings. The Raijin, the Les, the Optimus Ti, and one or two other smaller boutique brands are about it. I have thought about the Salsa Woodsmoke but it seems to be more bikepacker oriented, maybe with a 100mm fork to steepen the HT a little.


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## economatic (Apr 18, 2006)

While I don't like the lack of SS frames on the market I get why the big manufacturers are not offering them. Why design and market something to a small group of potential buyers when someone can slap on a tensioner or EBB adapter to turn any bike into a SS? Those solutions perform the same function as a sliding dropout, right? I'm sure that logic makes sense to an executive making product line decisions who doesn't ride SS.

FWIW, Lynskey still makes a Ridgeline SS.


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## sennaster (Sep 21, 2006)

teamdicky said:


> Well, that's certainly a place for it to go, but from there... where?
> 
> No exit hole?
> 
> That DT/BB/ST junction is too tight of a bend for a cable (like way too tight).


Mebbe out the bottom of downtube, route under the BB, then back in on the back of the seat tube?

I have a Nukeproof hardtail with that configuration, which i'd never seen before.


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## jake2185 (May 31, 2010)

I’m sure SS will come back in time , kind of like how PBR was $8 for a case in college and now you pay $8 for a tall boy at hipster bar. 

I’ve also noticed less XC races, and I do very few, that even offer an SS category at all. A promoter I emailed said they struggle to get a decent SS field so they just dropped it altogether. 

This one bike for everything idea is great in theory but it can’t last forever. You can pound nails with a jelly donut but a hammer (e-bikers, replace hammer with “pneumatic nail gun”) is always going to be the best tool for the job.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Shinkers (Feb 5, 2014)

Stock SS builds usually suck pretty hard IMO so I'd rather build one up or buy a geared bike and sell off the drivetrain. 

I'd agree with what Travis is saying that it can be hard to find a hardtail frame that's slack enough. However, I think that's finally changing and I think that's a good thing. 

I get the impression that hardtails in general are on the decline but maybe that's just my perception. 

After riding my Rohloff tensioner, I'd never let a lack of sliding dropouts prevent me form SS'ing a frame again. It's fantastic.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't think it's so much the lack of SS options as a lack of conventional XC options. I understand the benefits of some of the newer generation of mtbs in many situations, but it's just not appropriate for every rider.

I had a Niner ROS9 very briefly. I regretted selling my Soma Juice to buy that, and soon replaced it with a Jabberwocky. the Jabber has a nice mix of XC with a nod toward modern geometry trends.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

No.


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## HEMIjer (Jul 17, 2008)

Definitely a shame you cannot but a SS from a major mfg. Giant was on to something with the XTC 27.5 plus carbon SS now discontinued walked pass it many times at the shop thinking I would eventaully pull the tirgger.

Edit: Just realized Superfly with Treks Sliding dropouts also no longer in the lineup...Dickey is right starting to be a dieing breed, will come back at somepoint


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

JoePAz said:


> That hole is for a cable for the rear shifter.


From the description of the Optimus ti on the Vassago site:

"Internal Dropper post routing"

The steel 2018 VerHauen does not have that option.

That and Tom V PM'ed me on FB about it.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

jbell said:


> I have been on a lot of SS frames over the years, but up until my latest they have all been very XC. Short front centers, steep HT, that kind of stuff. The end of last race season I sold my Tranny 29 and built a Kona Raijin and honestly it is the BEST geometry I have ever ridden.


FYI: Kona has killed off the Raijin.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

economatic said:


> Why design and market something to a small group of potential buyers when someone can slap on a tensioner or EBB adapter to turn any bike into a SS? Those solutions perform the same function as a sliding dropout, right?


As far as carbon frames go, you're sticking an EBB adapter in there at your own risk. The BB shells weren't designed to handle the clamping forces, aside from the current AIR 9 RDO. If you can remember back to when Niner introduced the original RDO carbon frame, they were sure to tell people NOT TO STICK AN EBB IN THE FRAME or else void the warranty.

Further, my buddy bought a carbon frame and showed me the build list. I asked him if he was really going to stick an EBB adapter in the frame because it didn't have an aluminum shell (most carbon frames no longer have them).  He did it anyways. The frame cracked in the work stand.

I'm not saying that nobody has had success doing this. I'm just saying good luck with the warranty if you have an issue.

If you toss an Exzentriker into a threaded BB, it only has +/-3mm of throw and will more than likely require the use of the included half link to get an assortment of gear options. That means no narrow/wide rings... which makes it hard if you're using a lot of the modern, spiderless crank arms. Also, you're limited to 24mm spindles, so maybe that doesn't matter as much to you.










And as far as adding a tensioner, anyone who has ridden in muddy conditions can tell you how that works out. I'd just rather not do that again.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

A place for the SS.

Feel your pain OP. Here is why...


There is an honest, practical application for the SS. Now bear with me. Many mountain bikers are best served, and own, your typical FS trail bike. For every day riding I've found this to be the most fun, practical mountain bike to own and travel with.

But, many of us would like to do a race every now and then. Way back when there was the Super D, which "devolved" into modern day Enduro. The Super D was a race where the biker could show up on their solidly built, everyday, trail bike, and do well, and heck - even maybe win. Enduro is now mini-DH. Despite most enduro bike owners refusing to accept they are "over-biked" on everyday trail rides those who able to make an honest appraisal of the situation know better.

So, that leaves the realistic rider who as already sunk $5000 plus into their everyday trailbike in a bad spot should he want to enter a race and do well. Either drop another $5000 plus on an enduro bike or a light weight xc bike.

Well, that pickle can be circumvented by building up a light weight, relatively inexpensive SS, and entering the SS class at the race. That is what I did for quite a few years and it worked well.

But, like you've alluded to, race-able SS frames are becoming harder to find.

They are becoming slacker, over-forked, heavy... basically, they are trying to become trail bikes. And that is ok, except for someone looking to find a race-able SS frame.


A reasonably priced, light weight, aluminum, SS frame with reasonable angles, and built around a fork say 80 to 100mm would be nice. I do admit I'd like it to be able to handle 2.4" tires out back.


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## economatic (Apr 18, 2006)

teamdicky said:


> As far as carbon frames go, you're sticking an EBB adapter in there at your own risk. The BB shells weren't designed to handle the clamping forces, aside from the current AIR 9 RDO. If you can remember back to when Niner introduced the original RDO carbon frame, they were sure to tell people NOT TO STICK AN EBB IN THE FRAME or else void the warranty.
> 
> Further, my buddy bought a carbon frame and showed me the build list. I asked him if he was really going to stick an EBB adapter in the frame because it didn't have an aluminum shell (most carbon frames no longer have them). He did it anyways. The frame cracked in the work stand.
> 
> ...


I was being facetious about tensioners and EBB adapters performing as well as an actual SS frame. They're hacks that are suboptimal at best, catastrophic on the other end of the scale and your anecdote about the cracked frame is a perfect example. Just like the frame designs that eliminate the second convenient bottle mount in the triangle. Reaching to grab a bottle mounted in an odd place can simply be inconvenient or disastrously covered in cow or horse ****...the latter happened to me both in ND and in WY. Gross.

My cynical point was that the large bike companies are profit machines and if a bike doesn't make enough money they'll kill it. They might test the waters and see if there's a market or jump on current trends which I'm sure is why we had so many options for a few years. Trek and Specialized come to mind here. At least we have more independent frame builders than ever to give us other options at a premium.


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## Driverfound337 (Sep 1, 2008)

Ahhhh rigid SS, I have had a few nice steel rides over the years, two from a local frame builder and a few from big manufacturers such as Raleigh XXIX, Kona Unit, Trek Superfly. That Trek Superfly really is my love of them all, steel is great, but something about aluminum and carbon of that machine that just feels precise and rips. I have put about 8,000 miles on it and has no sign of stopping, I take it on everything from smooth XC to jumps to double blacks. I really wish Trek would build another and not make it PLUS but that will NEVER happen. I picked up another Superfly for backup so I never have to be without one  Almost got another Steel build finished. I have almost bought a Chameleon last year a few times but can't get anytime on dirt to make sure it's really what I want. Agree options are limited and I guess that's just the way it is. 
IMG_4608 by driverfound337, on Flickr
IMG_5171 by driverfound337, on Flickr


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## joshhan (Apr 1, 2011)

Sounds like the Scandium Niner One9.  

If you can still find one in good shape.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Tyrone Shoelaces said:


> I've been SS-ing for ~10 years or so and I got into it probably for reasons that many others here have as well i.e. Got bored with regular bikes, and thought a simple SS on my local trails would be a great way to make them feel 'new' again and it sure did.


This is exactly how I got into it 13-14 years ago, and now I just prefer the challenge and simplicity.

Reminds me of this quote from Apocalypse Now:
"Every minute I stay in this room I get weaker. And every minute Charlie squats in the bush he gets stronger. Each time I look around the walls move in a little tighter..."

That's how it feels, to me, to choose your geared bike over your SS...LOL


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

economatic said:


> I was being facetious about tensioners and EBB adapters performing as well as an actual SS frame.
> 
> Trek and Specialized come to mind here. At least we have more independent frame builders than ever to give us other options at a premium.


Sorry. I've already had to banter over those issues on social media from serious responses.

What was really strange about the Trek and Specialized SS bikes was that they were selling out in bike shops pretty quick. Then they dropped them. Just like that.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Driverfound337 said:


> Ahhhh rigid SS, I have had a few nice steel rides over the years, two from a local frame builder and a few from big manufacturers such as Raleigh XXIX, Kona Unit, Trek Superfly. That Trek Superfly really is my love of them all, steel is great, but something about aluminum and carbon of that machine that just feels precise and rips.


I sold my beloved rigid aluminum bike because we were moving into a smaller house, and owning three single speeds was seeming excessive.


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## blaklabl (Mar 14, 2011)

Try being a SS rider that prefers 26" wheels, that ship has definitely sailed and has a big hole in the hull. Thank dog for craigslist and ENO hubs.


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## Joe_Re (Jan 10, 2011)

Driverfound337 said:


> Ahhhh rigid SS, I have had a few nice steel rides over the years, two from a local frame builder and a few from big manufacturers such as Raleigh XXIX, Kona Unit, Trek Superfly. That Trek Superfly really is my love of them all, steel is great, but something about aluminum and carbon of that machine that just feels precise and rips. I have put about 8,000 miles on it and has no sign of stopping, I take it on everything from smooth XC to jumps to double blacks. I really wish Trek would build another and not make it PLUS but that will NEVER happen. I picked up another Superfly for backup so I never have to be without one  Almost got another Steel build finished. I have almost bought a Chameleon last year a few times but can't get anytime on dirt to make sure it's really what I want. Agree options are limited and I guess that's just the way it is.
> IMG_4608 by driverfound337, on Flickr


I freaking love my Superfly SS. It's stupid fast and loves to get rowdy. I for one like the new school geometry. We have a good mix of old school and new school trails and it handles well on both. I will truly be disappointed when that frame wears out.



teamdicky said:


> What was really strange about the Trek and Specialized SS bikes was that they were selling out in bike shops pretty quick. Then they dropped them. Just like that.


I know... We've watched virtually all the big brands drop the SS models in favour of 10 different gravel bikes or whatever the latest trend is. I'm sure the number of SS bikes is smaller than probably anything in their lines except maybe full blown DH bikes, but they weren't sitting around collecting sale price-tags.

While I'd have no problem buying a smaller brand or custom, when the time comes to replace, I've always liked Trek. My first shop quality bike was was a made in the USA Trek.


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

I'm curious what you picked up to replace your ROS? I have a ROS, and pretty much feel the same way about it: I like the geo, but it's just overbuilt for me.



coke said:


> I think the stock specced SS like the EL Mar and Carve for example, were a great way for beginners to try SS out without investing a lot of money. Most people I know who primarily ride SS though prefer to just start with a bare frame and build it the way they want.
> 
> Personally, I love the stability of a slightly slacker rigid SS. I've experienced no downsides with it, even on tight twisty trails. You do have to adapt your cornering technique, and at first the bikes will feel like they handle slow, but once figured out the "slower" handling and stability can be used as an advantage. I also like being able to take a hand off the bike and grab a drink while being in full control, even if it's a little bumpy.
> 
> ...


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Not a question for me specifically, but my ROS9 had a very short reach for its size. I am 5'9" and I had to put at least a 110mm slammed stem on it to get the fit long and low enough. Anything shorter or higher put my lower back in so much agony that I could ride for one hour, the I was off the bike for a week. However, that long stem made it handle like ass.

If you look at the stack and reach numbers on the ROS9, it's almost a square. I replaced it with a Jabberwocky because it's much longer. I don't have to fold my body in half to ride it.


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

I like the high stack of the ROS, I don't have to run quite so many spacers to get the bars about level with the saddle. The reach is OK (XL frame). It's just a bit too stiff for me.



mack_turtle said:


> Not a question for me specifically, but my ROS9 had a very short reach for its size. I am 5'9" and I had to put at least a 110mm slammed stem on it to get the fit long and low enough. Anything shorter or higher put my lower back in so much agony that I could ride for one hour, the I was off the bike for a week. However, that long stem made it handle like ass.
> 
> If you look at the stack and reach numbers on the ROS9, it's almost a square. I replaced it with a Jabberwocky because it's much longer. I don't have to fold my body in half to ride it.


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## Tyrone Shoelaces (Nov 6, 2006)

teamdicky said:


> As far as carbon frames go, you're sticking an EBB adapter in there at your own risk. The BB shells weren't designed to handle the clamping forces, aside from the current AIR 9 RDO. If you can remember back to when Niner introduced the original RDO carbon frame, they were sure to tell people NOT TO STICK AN EBB IN THE FRAME or else void the warranty.
> 
> Further, my buddy bought a carbon frame and showed me the build list. I asked him if he was really going to stick an EBB adapter in the frame because it didn't have an aluminum shell (most carbon frames no longer have them). He did it anyways. The frame cracked in the work stand.
> 
> I'm not saying that nobody has had success doing this. I'm just saying good luck with the warranty if you have an issue.


Wow! What kind of frame was it that cracked in the workstand when your buddy tried to put an EBB in there? That is a frame I wouldn't want to ride...period...no matter what kind of BB is there as it just seems way too fragile.

Chalk me up to one of the guys that has had great success with an EBB (a BEER eccentric) in an all carbon frame with no metal insert in it's BB shell. This is my SSCX build...a Felt F1X that was Felt's top of the line carbon shizz when it came out a few years ago (before their Textreme or whatever it's called weave frames). Anyway, I day 2 after getting the frame, I slammed an EBB into that bare naked shell and smashed the heck out of it for years. No issues at all. Won a handful of local overall season titles in Elite SS CX with the setup, and wailed on it big time in many gravel events and training rides. (Pics of the set-up and EBB are here: https://www.cxmagazine.com/ron-shevock-felt-f1x-gravel-singlespeed-lost-and-found)

Anyway, I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. At least with a Felt given my experiences with it. Really curious to what kind of frame would crack in a workstand :eekster:


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## rbags68 (Apr 8, 2014)

I have two ss built up from cheaper bikes. One is a 2000 Trek 6000 26” and a 2015 Trek Marlin 6 29”, I would prefer to drop this one to a 27.5. Both bikes fit my riding style which is old and slow


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

seat_boy said:


> I'm curious what you picked up to replace your ROS? I have a ROS, and pretty much feel the same way about it: I like the geo, but it's just overbuilt for me.


I went with titanium and custom geo. Picked some of the things I liked about the ROS, but made some changes such as slightly longer reach.


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## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

I wanted to re-visit SS again a year ago so I bought a Trek/Fisher Marlin SS on C/L for $300. Replaced almost everything except for the saddle with mostly used parts for about $400-ish more and have a great bike. Aside from 135QR I'm impressed with how progressive this thing was for 2011. 68.5 h/a (@ 120mm Reba), 44mm h/t, rear tire clearance for 2.3", 27.2 s/p. The dropouts blow but I can live with 'em for the money. If I was going to upgrade, I might look at a Carver Ti frame.









Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


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## solo-x (Feb 16, 2010)

blaklabl said:


> Try being a SS rider that prefers 26" wheels, that ship has definitely sailed and has a big hole in the hull. Thank dog for craigslist and ENO hubs.


Speaking of which, a friend just posted an SS 26" bike for sale on the SSOD FB page.


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## blaklabl (Mar 14, 2011)

No FB, got a link by chance?


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Tyrone Shoelaces said:


> Really curious to what kind of frame would crack in a workstand :eekster:


China carbon 29+ frame. Kinda hard to say "yeah, it cracked because it was cheap crap" or "it was heavy and a bit overbuilt, so shoulda been okay."

It was being assembled by an experienced mechanic with a torque wrench tho.


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## joshhan (Apr 1, 2011)

teamdicky said:


> China carbon 29+ frame. Kinda hard to say "yeah, it cracked because it was cheap crap" or "it was heavy and a bit overbuilt, so shoulda been okay."
> 
> It was being assembled by an experienced mechanic with a torque wrench tho.


That's a shame, I tried out a cheap Chinese carbon frame with an EBB just for kicks and it works great! But it does have an alloy tube inside.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

joshhan said:


> That's a shame, I tried out a cheap Chinese carbon frame with an EBB just for kicks and it works great! But it does have an alloy tube inside.


He had already ordered the frame, but I did point out to him that it was available with the alloy shell. Meh.


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## a a r o n (May 22, 2009)

Here's how I see it:

Single speed is cyclical for major manufacturers. Release one every now and then and let it sell until it cleans up most of the pent up demand from that brand's loyal/local following. Then let it die and bring it back some time down the road. 

Giant TCX, XTC come to mind. Cannondale had an alloy SS a few years ago... My local shop is a dealer for both among other smaller brands and I don't get the feeling of being under-represented if you look at it over time. 

Currently I've got a Pivot Les, Salsa Timberjack, and Giant XTC. Those gives me the opportunity to have about any setup I want. Suspension, Rigid, steep, slack, big tires, gears or SS, threaded bb or not, dropper or not.... The fleet is full.


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## BrianRidesBikes (Mar 16, 2018)

teamdicky said:


> Long blog post, but serious question. Are all single speeds either gonna be or long-forked brapping machines or heavy but versatile steel tanks built with a lean towards possible bike packing?
> 
> Nothing left in between for those of us that don't fall in line with those two schools of thought?
> 
> ...


I don't think so and feel like we have more "good" options now than ever.

Sure, the biggest of bike companies have since moved on after realizing SSing is truly a niche market and couldn't (profitably) be extended to the masses. But think of all of the other boutique companies that have sprung up during this time. Not only can you get a custom SS made to your liking, but most of these companies now offer "production" versions at a reasonable price.

As far as SS entry points, it's the same as it's ever been. Old XC bikes previously dismissed to the rafters will continue to find their way back into rotation as singlespeeds and decorated with ever improving chain tensioners, EBBs, magic gears, etc. The only difference is now they will be made of carbon!


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## Jack Burns (Nov 18, 2005)

"The death of the XC SS!"

We only hear this proclamation from single speeders. Everyone else doesn't care. 

At least that's how I see it. It's fine. I'm fine with it. 

My personality is such that if everyone rode unicycles, I would ride a bicycle. If everyone rode single speeds, I'd have to ride a multi-speed unicycle. Perhaps I exaggerate.

Today's and tomorrow's bikes are amazing. They really do make difficult terrain rideable. I am elated for all of this. I'm not ungrateful for these technical achievements.

If the single speeder feels they are being left behind and ignored by the industry, that just exactly what the single speeder wants. 

Speaking only for myself, if there's a chip on my phoney shoulder, I put it there, and I want it. It's me. It's good to be ignored. If it is motivation and underdog anger, I'll use it.

But my mood doesn't feel like that. I just like the climbs, trying to make it, and resting and not crashing on the way down.

Amongst my cadre I'm the eccentric SS rider. They call me out, for having to let everyone know that I did such and such on my SS, being an SS prick. Whatever. They probably wish they could be me. I don't brag. I can't help it if Strava shows what bike I ride and track.

I won't wear hydration pack if I can help it on the SS...

I figure on riding these SS bikes until I can't no more. Old geometry is fine. 


Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


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## TahoeSS (Jun 1, 2009)

I have used a one speed bike as my main ride for the last 16 years. I only bought a specific frame/fork from Specialized 3 years ago and built it up myself. I have done this with all of my previous one speed bikes. The frames I used in the past were all old hard tails with the ENO hub. I still have the same hub only now it is converted into a ss specific hub. The Specialized frame was one of two left as they had all sold out and no more were produced. They have no problem selling mass produced carbon ss specific frames obviously. I raced my home built ss bikes for years and did very well against the fancy frames of the blinglespeeders I used to race with. I even had a full suspension Intense Spyder single speed for a couple of years with thousands of miles on her. I believe the big companies could do just fine building factory frames.


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## Andy R (Nov 26, 2008)

Jack Burns said:


> Speaking only for myself, if there's a chip on my phoney shoulder, I put it there, and I want it. I just like the climbs, trying to make it, and resting and not crashing on the way down.
> 
> Amongst my cadre I'm the eccentric SS rider. They call me out, for having to let everyone know that I did such and such on my SS, being an SS prick. Whatever. They probably wish they could be me. I don't brag.
> 
> I figure on riding these SS bikes until I can't no more. Old geometry is fine.


Are you sure that you're not me??


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## backcountryeti (May 21, 2004)

SS XC options will come back around when the industry gets tired of enduro bikepacking single speeds. Single speeds are still found in the Cross world, its just a matter of time before some company unveils some "new" geometry thats "optimized" for tight XC trails and long days in the saddle. It'll probably have a new wheel size too... I heard 26" is good...


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

backcountryeti said:


> SS XC options will come back around when the industry gets tired of enduro bikepacking single speeds. Single speeds are still found in the Cross world, its just a matter of time before some company unveils some "new" geometry thats "optimized" for tight XC trails and long days in the saddle. It'll probably have a new wheel size too... I heard 26" is good...


26" wheel size ? how novel, I wonder if anyone has thought of it already

could be a game changer. gonna re-evaluate my quiver and see if I can convert my 27.5 dropouts now...can't wait for the quickness 26 inch promises


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## the_riddler (Jun 21, 2017)

I helped make SSXC less ded this weekend at Dark Mtn. It sucked, but like the "lets do that again" sucked...


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## N10S (Sep 27, 2004)

It's just my opinion but, I think the need for a simple ss xc bike flies in the face of what the manufactures are pushing with the overbuilt DH type bikes for all uses.

Here is what I purchased recently in my attempt to reclaim my sanity in a world of long travel forks, tapered head tubes and through axles.


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## Jack Burns (Nov 18, 2005)

Yesterday i had SS experience. Raced solo on my old rigid steel forked ti 26" SS Magura Marta front and V-brake rear. 

It was the Wente 8 hour. I was able to ride 8 laps. Came in 8th.

Most riders enjoyed very fine gears and suspension.

Still, the old fashioned SS bike held her own, and was getting it done, not only in SS style, but really riding all the **** as well.

SS is not dead. This was a big class at this race.

I've never raced SS until now. It's great. The course was perfect for it though.

I did flat the front tire on a rock in the 4th lap, and that's the price I paid for the steel fork. 

Well, it's got me scheming on trying again next year, with a better bike for the course.

Still, there was nothing wrong with running an old steep ST and long CS rim brake frame. 

No one complained, except for my hands a few times.

SS lives. 

Screw it. 

If we really want SS bikes, we'll find them.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


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## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

You have to reach a different enlighten level of mountain biking to realise that SS is the purest form of riding. It is about being challenged by the element and how we handle it.


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## Jack Burns (Nov 18, 2005)

One may arrive at single speeding by being forced to ride the best bang for the buck with simultaneous applications of logic and aesthetics.

One may arrive at single speeding by simply wishing one's self into a bad ass condition.

One may become a single speeder by getting a DUI and buying a cheap bike to get around.

Someone is out there who rides a single speed because they have to.

I ride a single speed because of the epic struggle it brings to any ride. It never fails to create the conditions of challenge, even on the simplest trails and shortest rides, upon which my fondest mountain bike adventures are predicated upon.

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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I ride a single speed because I enjoy it.
Also, instead of finishing in the back 3rd of the pack at races, I finish almost last and get congratulated and called a hard man


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

blizzardpapa said:


> You have to reach a different enlighten level of mountain biking to realise that SS is the purest form of riding. It is about being challenged by the element and how we handle it.


there are levels beyond that.

step 13: brakeless, fixed gear, with solid tires, blindfolded. The Force guides you.

step 14: muni, replace your Nuun or whatever you used to drink with absinthe.

step infinity: you are the ride and the ride is you. you go there in your mind and collapse time and space into a single dimension within the Atman and ride your bike across the universe in a single moment, then douse yourself in DOT fluid and set your body on fire, having fulfilled your dharma.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I don't know if I was really riding faster, but it sure felt like it! I'm sure I was a times as I was really getting up and charging into the climbs.


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## TallChris (Oct 16, 2008)

Way late to the discussion but I'm in the market for my next SS, upgrading from the entry level steel pig I've been riding the last 6 years, and facing some challenging choices. Am I a fool to want an '09 superfly SS?


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## jake2185 (May 31, 2010)

TallChris said:


> Way late to the discussion but I'm in the market for my next SS, upgrading from the entry level steel pig I've been riding the last 6 years, and facing some challenging choices. Am I a fool to want an '09 superfly SS?


So, when you say SS "steel pig" what are we talking for weight? What has you drawn to a 10 year old frame? I'm not saying it's a bad choice but there are a lot of options floating around. Some nice steel frames that build up pretty light.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TallChris (Oct 16, 2008)

30 lbs. 
My two choices are driven by price point. There is a local Moots YBB for $1500 or the Superfly for $1k. Both are admittedly old. I can't justify $3500 for a used Pivot Les. I'm going to look into vassago based on other posts in this thread.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

TallChris said:


> 30 lbs.
> My two choices are driven by price point. There is a local Moots YBB for $1500 or the Superfly for $1k. Both are admittedly old. I can't justify $3500 for a used Pivot Les. I'm going to look into vassago based on other posts in this thread.


New superfly for 800-1k. They were discontinued a few years ago


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## jake2185 (May 31, 2010)

TallChris said:


> 30 lbs.
> My two choices are driven by price point. There is a local Moots YBB for $1500 or the Superfly for $1k. Both are admittedly old. I can't justify $3500 for a used Pivot Les. I'm going to look into vassago based on other posts in this thread.


I think the pivots are over priced myself. As for used, I think you can find some complete Niner SIRs, Vassago Jabberwockys, Kona Units, Soma Juice and Salsa El Mariachis for your budget if you'd like to stay with steel.

For example, there is a 2016 Kona Unit on eBay with a set of I9s, medium and set up SS for $950obo plus shipping. Jabbers and Juices are a little harder to find. Good luck with your search.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

the frames mentioned in the last few comments are very different frames that will fit and handle differently. I would focus on the _reach_ of each frame to see how it will fit you, then consider the front-enter and rear-center to understand a bit about how it handles.

The ROS9 has a very short reach, tall stack, and short chainstay. I had one for a bit and didn't like it because it was super heavy and I didn't like the upright position. it has a tall headtube in addition to the 120-140mm fork, so it was hard to get the bars low enough. my back started hurting badly when I bought that frame and I blamed the frame, but I think it was more due to a lack of core strength.

The Jabber and Honzo are at the other end of the spectrum with an extremely long reach. If you're going for one of those, plan on running a short stem (which is the way to go anyway) or "size down" on the frame, or both. I am becoming more and more skeptical of these super-long frames these days.

I am 5'9" on a medium Jabber with a 50mm stem and 760mm bars with 12 degree backsweep. the handlebar makes the reach on the bike a lot less. that seems to work well, but I think a frame with a little less reach would suit me better in the end.

If someone stole my bike today, I'd probably get a Karate Monkey, perhaps a Unit. I had a Juice and liked it, but saw too many cracked ones and heard all the stories of Soma's utter lack of customer service when it comes to these things. the new Juice looks burly though.

Vassagos are nice, but I have heard of several riders with broken Verhauens, although I hear that was a bad batch. Their customer service is hit-and-miss as well.

The ROS9 (if you can still find one) doesn't seem to suit a XC style very well, but a SIR9 would. I haven't ridden a SIR9 but by the numbers, it might fit the bill. too bad Niner beefed that bike up so much that it's no longer really an XC bike at all.

I really think Salsa is missing out by not making a steel hardtail anymore. I came very close to buying a El Mar on a few occasions and I wish I had.


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## IPA Rider (Aug 24, 2008)

backcountryeti said:


> SS XC options will come back around when the industry gets tired of enduro bikepacking single speeds. Single speeds are still found in the Cross world, its just a matter of time before some company unveils some "new" geometry thats "optimized" for tight XC trails and long days in the saddle. It'll probably have a new wheel size too... I heard 26" is good...


well...fanny packs and oval rings are back...it is the 80's all over again...


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

*Giant XTC Advanced*



TallChris said:


> 30 lbs.
> My two choices are driven by price point. There is a local Moots YBB for $1500 or the Superfly for $1k. Both are admittedly old. I can't justify $3500 for a used Pivot Les. I'm going to look into vassago based on other posts in this thread.


I rode a Vassago Jabberwocky for 9 years. I loved/love the bike. 4 months ago, or so, I found a new 2017 Giant XTC Advanced 1 29er for $3000. I sold the shock and gears and put a Niner Carbon RDO fork on it.

I sold the Jabber to a friend who promised me I could buy it back if and when I chose. I do not miss the Jabber yet. I love the new bike.

PS. With only the fork change, the bike weighs 19.2 lbs with egg-beaters.


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## North of Flag (Jun 9, 2013)

Remember Rock Lobster Cycles? Innovators...


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

Happy that others have mentioned the Pivot LES. Yes it's $$, but it's light, has an awesome tensioning system and allows you go from full lightweight XC mode 29er with a rigid fork, or all the way the other way to AM style with 27.5+, fox 34 130mm, dropper.

I had it in the lighter mode for a 3000 ft climb XC ride, then a few weeks later with the plus tires in the bike park and some blacks in the local shred area.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

I was never a fan of the cheap factory built singlespeed bikes. I've always started with a frame I already had, or sourced one that plays well as a singlespeed, ie has some way to tension the chain. Then again, I'm very particular on how my bikes are set up.

I do not miss the old school XC geometry at all. As far as I'm concerned, the short rear & slack HTA bikes do everything better. The only thing I don't like about the newer geometry is the low BB. The slack HTA can be a pain when climbing in the saddle, but on a SS, you are out of the saddle most of the time anyway, so it doesn't matter. 2 of my 3 singlespeedable frames are custom and one an off the shelf Carver 99er. One has an EBB, one has sliders, and one has telescoping chainstays. Actually, my road bike has rocker dropouts too!

It's actually a great time to be a singlespeeder. More frames than ever have a way to tension the chain without resorting to a crappy add on tensioner. Lots of smaller companies making a big variety of frames.

I do agree about the water bottle issue though! I'm never buy a frame that can only fit one bottle inside the front triangle.


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

I just completed the HC100 ... SS. I had a great day. Of note, the SS class was only 17 riders. It is a shrinking crowd ... down from 22 last year.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

maybe this has been addressed, but what makes some people want to stick to old-school geometry when they have the opportunity to upgrade? I briefly owned a ROS 9, which has moderate new-school geometry and I thought it handled like a pile of **** compared the the Juice and Jabberwocky that I rode before and after it. does the older approach to bike geometry handle better for certain riders, on certain terrain, or for any particular riding style?










I can't afford to own more than one mountain bike at a time. I fund most of my new purchases by selling my old stuff, so getting stuck with something I hate sounds inconvenient.

where does Vassago's geometry on the current Jabberwocky fit in the old/new school paradigm? it seems steep by today's standards but the front end is fairly long.


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

Been SSing 9 years now after first converting a '90 RockHopper that I had purchased when new. I've had a VooDoo Dambala SS, a SIR9 SS, a Nimble 9 SS, and an ICT set up as a 29+ SS.
None hold a candle to the Jones Plus SS I built up and have been riding for the past 3 years.
Granted some may see it as a bit portly at 29lbs and you either love or hate the look of the truss fork but it is my favorite bike for XC SS. It handles the tight stuff with aplomb, is extremely stable in low speed techy stuff, excellent at high speed, climbs extremely well and descends with confidence.


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

SeaBass_ said:


> Been SSing 9 years now after first converting a '90 RockHopper that I had purchased when new. I've had a VooDoo Dambala SS, a SIR9 SS, a Nimble 9 SS, and an ICT set up as a 29+ SS.
> None hold a candle to the Jones Plus SS I built up and have been riding for the past 3 years.
> Granted some may see it as a bit portly at 29lbs and you either love or hate the look of the truss fork but it is my favorite bike for XC SS. It handles the tight stuff with aplomb, is extremely stable in low speed techy stuff, excellent at high speed, climbs extremely well and descends with confidence.


Were you able to ride one and loved it so much you had to have one? Or did you just see them online and had to have one? I'm always curious about the cult following style bikes like that.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

That cult following for the Jones has me curious as well. I'll have to try one some time.


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

WARNING! LONG ANSWER- I had always had an eye for the original Jones Spaceframe and did a lot of reading up on it but at the time it only came in one size and I’m 6’2 with real long arms and legs so I felt it was too risky to build one to find it was too small for my liking. You rarely ever see them in the wild so I was never able to throw a leg over one. At the time I was riding an XL Krampus SS and while the 29+ bug had bitten me, I wasn’t enamored with the rest of the bike. In early 2015, I then learned that Jeff Jones was releasing the Plus and that it would be available in a Large size. I pored over his blog and watched a few videos of his prototypes in action and then called Jeff Jones on the phone numerous times with questions. I liked that he always had time to speak to me directly. My mind made up, I sold the Krampus and a bunch of other stuff and put a deposit down and got on the waiting list. The frame arrived in March 2015 and I built it up. Since then, it’s been my favorite bike in over 28 years of riding. I’ve put gears on it a couple times but they always come off after a short time. The bike just shines as an SS. The Bushnell EBB has always been flawless. My only complaint is the oddball 135/142 front hub specced on the first gen. The new forks are spaced at 150mm.


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## A1an (Jun 3, 2007)

SS is, and always will be, a novelty for the mainstream. Really sucks with bikes like the Superfly that hit the market a few years back offering stupid light and super fun XC options for not a whole lot of cash.


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## Enoch (Jun 12, 2004)

Looks like the Giant XTC is a viable option for a SS. Anyone have experience with the new frame? Only bad I have been able to find is creaking from seat post clamp. I have heard of some cracking????? But can't find anything. 

I'm looking for some real world experience on the XTC, otherwise might end up with a Chumba Stella Ti.


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## Driverfound337 (Sep 1, 2008)

I hear you Enoch, I too have been eyeballing the XTC for a year now, came close to a chameleon and other bikes but Love the lightness of my 15' Trek Sueperfly SS and find that XTC the closest comparison. Not alot of intel out there on the giant..... I am sure if I threw a leg over it I'd want to buy it, just none of this plus tire garbage. I wish Trek would bring back a rigid ss 29r and no I am not interested in Stache


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## chairthruster (Dec 17, 2004)

Tyrone Shoelaces said:


> I've been SS-ing for ~10 years or so and I got into it probably for reasons that many others here have as well i.e. Got bored with regular bikes, and thought a simple SS on my local trails would be a great way to make them feel 'new' again and it sure did.
> 
> My first SS was one of those fairly inexpensive Bianchi SASS's that were around back then. Rigid and steel and cheap...was a great gateway drug to get into it and let me to the typical Ventana El Commandante's, Niner Air 9 Carbons that many here have had and then finally a custom Indy Fab Ti Deluxe 29er that I had built in 2011 and still ride the snot out of today. Such a great bike...
> 
> ...


heh heh&#8230; I suppose you could have just pointed my email questions to this post. too funny. #SASS4Life


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

Enoch said:


> Looks like the Giant XTC is a viable option for a SS. Anyone have experience with the new frame? Only bad I have been able to find is creaking from seat post clamp. I have heard of some cracking????? But can't find anything.
> 
> I'm looking for some real world experience on the XTC, otherwise might end up with a Chumba Stella Ti.


I bought the 2017 XTC 29 1, and sold the gears and fork to buy an RDO fork. Sub-20 lb $3k ... basically it is stock. I have not had seat post problems, but I have had a little slippage in the drive-train. I love the frame. It is a very comfortable frame for me. Climbs very well. Descends well.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Death of XC SS indeed. I don't think a frame that I would want to buy is on the market anymore. All this boost bullshit is being forced on the market such that you can't fit your old parts on many new frames. Start hoarding your ancient 142mm hubs now!


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I'm still running QR front and rear and straight steerers.
4 bikes with them.
Next will be a tapered steerer. On a rigid single speed.


mack_turtle said:


> Death of XC SS indeed. I don't think a frame that I would want to buy is on the market anymore. All this boost bullshit is being forced on the market such that you can't fit your old parts on many new frames. Start hoarding your ancient 142mm hubs now!


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## The STIG (May 20, 2011)

teamdicky said:


> From the description of the Optimus ti on the Vassago site:
> 
> "Internal Dropper post routing"
> 
> ...


So how did you end up routing the dropper? I've got a new transfer sitting in a box, considering putting it on my optigrab. Looks like a super sharp turn at the bb.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

part of the problem we have here is that most of the market is geared toward complete bikes and people building new custom bikes from the frame up.

the part of the market who buys a frame and cobbles together a bike with their old parts is a tiny niche that very few companies have time for. we are used to and familiar with how a bike with "steep" angles and "narrow" tires rides and fits, so we don't desire to gamble thousands of dollars on some newfangled chubby tire bike when what we have works OK. we make small, slow changes and the market is moving at mach 6, leaving me behind. Surly is one of the few that really makes frames for people like "us" and Problem Solvers bridges the gap most of the time.

the result is that new frames and bikes are built with new standards and features that make older parts essentially useless because, why not? the industry is not benefiting from the purchases of penny-pinching seasoned retrogrouches, so why cater to them? you can make a lot more money selling to new riders and dentists who buy disposable bikes every year.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> part of the problem we have here is that most of the market is geared toward complete bikes and people building new custom bikes from the frame up.
> 
> the part of the market who buys a frame and cobbles together a bike with their old parts is a tiny niche that very few companies have time for. we are used to and familiar with how a bike with "steep" angles and "narrow" tires rides and fits, so we don't desire to gamble thousands of dollars on some newfangled chubby tire bike when what we have works OK. we make small, slow changes and the market is moving at mach 6, leaving me behind. Surly is one of the few that really makes frames for people like "us" and Problem Solvers bridges the gap most of the time.
> 
> the result is that new frames and bikes are built with new standards and features that make older parts essentially useless because, why not? the industry is not benefiting from the purchases of penny-pinching seasoned retrogrouches, so why cater to them? you can make a lot more money selling to new riders and dentists who buy disposable bikes every year.


You do realize the technology isn't changing just to sell people more bikes, right? There are technical and performance reasons why things change. Newer bikes are actually an improvement.

The good news is more frames than ever are coming with sliders, rockers, etc. and can easily be turned into singlespeeds. Go ride a modern hardtail and see for yourself.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

bikeny said:


> The good news is more frames than ever are coming with sliders, rockers, etc. and can easily be turned into singlespeeds. Go ride a modern hardtail and see for yourself.


I believe you, I just pause and wait for something to be proven. by the time I have blinked once, it seems like the hub I saved every penny I could to buy a year ago is now "obsolete." having a moderate income and not being reckless with bike part purchases means you get left in the dust.

I'd love to ride a "modern" hardtail, but it's hard to find someplace to do so. the closest thing I have had was a Niner ROS9 and I absolutely hated that bike. some local bike shops have rentals and demos come through now and then, but no one demos a singlespeed bike at the trails. genuinely curious- are there demos of bikes like that where you live? maybe I am missing something, because it's all $6K endurobro bikes at those events.

the problem for people like me - people who never buy a complete bike buy carefully maintain a constantly-evolving bike by changing one part at a time - is that riding a new modern bike means I can't just buy a new frame and a bit or two to get it working. I would have to buy 90% of a new bike, which is a ****-ton of money for the average blue collar joe, or it does not work at all. it just feels like bikes are becoming basically disposable. maybe that's nothing new and I have only been in the mtb world long enough to notice it now.

edit: meh, f- it. I need to stop being motivated by fear of what happens when ___ breaks and I need to magically pull a ton of cash out of my ass to keep going and just ride my bike. if the dentist and programmer bros at the trails all have a garage full of expensive bikes with new **** on them but they don't know how to ride or maintain their bikes, that's not my problem.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

I have never ridden an SS but I recently built a Jones Plus SS for a friend/ customer. 
He trail rides it and I learned a lot trying to keep up with him. I may have to try it on my Krampus.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> I believe you, I just pause and wait for something to be proven. by the time I have blinked once, it seems like the hub I saved every penny I could to buy a year ago is now "obsolete." having a moderate income and not being reckless with bike part purchases means you get left in the dust.
> 
> I'd love to ride a "modern" hardtail, but it's hard to find someplace to do so. the closest thing I have had was a Niner ROS9 and I absolutely hated that bike. some local bike shops have rentals and demos come through now and then, but no one demos a singlespeed bike at the trails. genuinely curious- are there demos of bikes like that where you live? maybe I am missing something, because it's all $6K endurobro bikes at those events.
> 
> ...


All of that makes perfect sense. No, I've never demoed a SS, you just have to leave that hardtail in one gear!

Totally understand about upgrading peace meal. I haven't bought a complete bike in probably 15 years. I am constantly on the lookout for deals on stuff I 'may' need down the road. Somebody selling a cheap Boost rear wheel or hub because they are upgrading? Grab it so you're ready when you decide to splurge on a new frame. Somebody upgrading to suspension, grab their modern rigid fork. You can usually still use your whole drivetrain and cockpit though.


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## heartland (Oct 1, 2009)

Has anyone checked out the new Soma Juice? I just picked one up after breaking my second Vassago. 

It's a sorta strange blend of modern (internal dropper routing) and old-school: reasonable HTA, 100-120mm forks, and sliding 135mm qr rear drop outs come standard, though they can be swapped for 142mm through axels. CS is not short, but not too long either. (17.3? I think.)

Will build it up tonight, and I'm excited to see how it rides. Anyway, seems like a good candidate for a steel SS with a few little modern touches.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I had the previous Juice and always hated ridiculously long (to me) chainstays. too bad they didn't tighten them up for this version. otherwise it's a great frame. for tall riders and bikepacking, 17"+ is fine, but for average/short sized riders and trail shreddin, make em short!


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

bikeny said:


> All of that makes perfect sense. No, I've never demoed a SS, you just have to leave that hardtail in one gear!


Of the demos I have seen, there are never any hardtails either. on that note, I picked up a mountain bike magazine the other day and scanned every page. not a single hardtail in the whole magazine. I guess we're not really getting any "mountain bike action" after all.


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

New stuff is cool, progress is cool, I bet your bike rides just fine and is still fun anyway.

I don't think you need to hoard 142mm hubs, you can still buy 8 speed drivetrains after all. 

BTW-I'm a techie bro. If you think most of the people riding $$ bikes can't shred or wrench, c'mon up to western WA and ride. I think it'd be an eye opening experience. What would you do if you liked bikes and you were making $250k+ a year? I bet you'd buy a garage full of nice bikes and it wouldn't make you worse at riding. 

You're right though, no one demos SS. You gotta rent a hardtail and leave it in your chosen gear.



mack_turtle said:


> I believe you, I just pause and wait for something to be proven. by the time I have blinked once, it seems like the hub I saved every penny I could to buy a year ago is now "obsolete." having a moderate income and not being reckless with bike part purchases means you get left in the dust.
> 
> I'd love to ride a "modern" hardtail, but it's hard to find someplace to do so. the closest thing I have had was a Niner ROS9 and I absolutely hated that bike. some local bike shops have rentals and demos come through now and then, but no one demos a singlespeed bike at the trails. genuinely curious- are there demos of bikes like that where you live? maybe I am missing something, because it's all $6K endurobro bikes at those events.
> 
> ...


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> Of the demos I have seen, there are never any hardtails either. on that note, I picked up a mountain bike magazine the other day and scanned every page. not a single hardtail in the whole magazine. I guess we're not really getting any "mountain bike action" after all.


The only mountain bike magazine I read these days is DirtRag. I got a lifetime subscription when it was offered many years ago...

They routinely test hardtails, and even singlespeed bikes sometimes!


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## dwnhlldav (Feb 2, 2006)

blaklabl said:


> Try being a SS rider that prefers 26" wheels, that ship has definitely sailed and has a big hole in the hull. Thank dog for craigslist and ENO hubs.


I ran a 27.5 frame with 26" wheels for a couple years. I was running 2.5" tires and didn't notice the slightly lower bb.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jct (Mar 26, 2004)

Jack Burns said:


> Yesterday i had SS experience. Raced solo on my old rigid steel forked ti 26" SS Magura Marta front and V-brake rear.
> 
> It was the Wente 8 hour. I was able to ride 8 laps. Came in 8th.
> 
> ...


Wente is a great SS course. what ratio did you end up running?


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Blasphemy! lol

I still ride two (rigid) XC-ish SS 29er mountain bikes: Chris King Cielo (w/Paragon rockers) and a TwinSix Ti (EBB). Both are a lot of fun for my 50+ year old bones to hammer away on. No desire to get something more slacked out/modern/boosted/Trail-oriented.


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## mr_chrome (Jan 17, 2005)

edubfromktown said:


> Blasphemy! lol
> 
> I still ride two (rigid) XC-ish SS 29er mountain bikes: Chris King Cielo (w/Paragon rockers) and a TwinSix Ti (EBB). Both are a lot of fun for my 50+ year old bones to hammer away on. No desire to get something more slacked out/modern/boosted/Trail-oriented.


- same here; got an old steel KHS Solo One 29er and a converted Motobecane Fly Ti 29er converted to an SS, love 'em both but tend to ride the Ti SS a bit more since my 50+ old bones find the frame material better than steel and it can take bigger tires sizes........


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

Just had this super sweet Vassago Optimus built up. Comes in just a tick over 20lbs.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Most of this thread:


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

Steel, slack 29er and overforked with a Fox36. The bike doesn’t make any sense to most people that see it. I do miss the old xc agility, but not as much as I love the bike once the trail opens up a bit. It’s the bike that makes me train to be able to push a harder gear...


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

It is a shame Trek and Specialized discontinued their XC rigid SS, but they are definitely a niche bike. My local trails are perfect for them. I was hoping the new specialized fuse would have more of a XC geo, but in the LLS geo days, XC just doesn't sell even if it would be better for east coast trails


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## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

Most people, specially the new riders, want easy to ride bike. They want to be suspended both sides and gears. Rigid SS is a hard sale to lots of them.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Bacon Fat said:


> It is a shame Trek and Specialized discontinued their XC rigid SS, but they are definitely a niche bike. My local trails are perfect for them.





blizzardpapa said:


> Most people, specially the new riders, want easy to ride an easy bike. They want to be suspended both sides and gears. Rigid SS is a hard sale to lots of them.


This is why it is getting harder and harder to find these bikes or we find sliders or dropouts that can work for SS or gears. It's a niche bike and most people don't want to ignore 100 years of technology. As we can see above, some of us are still buying these bikes, but it's not profitable enough for large companies to mass produce SS bikes.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Rod said:


> ... it's not profitable enough for large companies to mass produce SS bikes *year after year*.


Many of the big manufacturers make a SS bike once in a while. Cannondale SS Caffeine, Trek Rig, Spec Carve SS, Bianchi SASS, etc. Hell, Surly doesn't have a SS Karate Monkey complete right now, but they probably will.

There's hope: lots of companies are making bikes with "adjustable chainstay length" because that adjustment can tune the ride of a geared bike or optimize it for four wheel sizes. It also makes SS easy.

I would like to see better EBB options for this reason; sure, you can tension a SS chain with an EBB, but you can also effectively adjust the reach, stack, STA, BB drop/ height, and chainstay length with an EBB. That's a selling point that anyone can appreciate.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

mack_turtle said:


> Many of the big manufacturers make a SS bike once in a while. Cannondale SS Caffeine, Trek Rig, Spec Carve SS, Bianchi SASS, etc. Hell, Surly doesn't have a SS Karate Monkey complete right now, but they probably will.
> 
> There's hope: lots of companies are making bikes with "adjustable chainstay length" because that adjustment can tune the ride of a geared bike or optimize it for four wheel sizes. It also makes SS easy.
> 
> I would like to see better EBB options for this reason; sure, you can tension a SS chain with an EBB, but you can also effectively adjust the reach, stack, STA, BB drop/ height, and chainstay length with an EBB. That's a selling point that anyone can appreciate.


Mack,

Adjustable chainstay length has been the latest trend. I hope manufacturers continue making SS bikes, but it's been roughly 4-5 years since Trek has released the Superfly SS and roughly a decade since the carbon rig. It's been 9 since the Specialized S-Works SS. We still have the niche covered by some other companies and bikes that have sliding or swinging droputs. Pivot, Giant, Vassago, Surly, Kona, etc.

You couldn't give me an EBB bike though. I completely avoided while shopping for my last bike. I change gears way too much.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Rod said:


> You couldn't give me an EBB bike though. I completely avoided while shopping for my last bike. I change gears way too much.


Is that because existing EBBs on the market suck at what they are supposed to do, or because you just don't like the idea of an eccentric bottom bracket at all?

If the former, that's why I said "better options" for EBBs. Like better design that don't slip and creak all the time.

If the latter, what about the idea of an EBB that actually works is unappealing to you?


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

mack_turtle said:


> Is that because existing EBBs on the market suck at what they are supposed to do, or because you just don't like the idea of an eccentric bottom bracket at all?
> 
> If the former, that's why I said "better options" for EBBs. Like better design that don't slip and creak all the time.
> 
> If the latter, what about the idea of an EBB that actually works is unappealing to you?


I think I'm somewhat in the both camp if I had to choose. I do agree they need to be greatly improved. We've all read about the creaking, slipping, and horror stories.

I personally don't want to adjust my cockpit when I change my gearing. I'm a set and forget type of person.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

mack_turtle said:


> Many of the big manufacturers make a SS bike once in a while. Cannondale SS Caffeine, Trek Rig, Spec Carve SS, Bianchi SASS, etc. Hell, Surly doesn't have a SS Karate Monkey complete right now, but they probably will.
> 
> There's hope: lots of companies are making bikes with "adjustable chainstay length" because that adjustment can tune the ride of a geared bike or optimize it for four wheel sizes. It also makes SS easy.
> 
> I would like to see better EBB options for this reason; sure, you can tension a SS chain with an EBB, but you can also effectively adjust the reach, stack, STA, BB drop/ height, and chainstay length with an EBB. That's a selling point that anyone can appreciate.


Good point- one potential drawback is that overall BB height can still end up on the low side.

If you have BB-30 or PF-30, Wheels Manufacturing makes an EBB that fits those BB shells. It has been bombproof on my single speed along with using their BB86/92 thread together angular contact bottom bracket.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

mack_turtle said:


> Most of this thread:
> 
> View attachment 1305473


Awesome.

I'm definitely old and the day job has lots to do with large-scale cloud stuff. So maybe I have even more retrogrouch super powers haha


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Old school geo XC SS, with some modern touches: https://www.voodoocycles.com/dambala


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Old school geo XC SS, with some modern touches: https://www.voodoocycles.com/dambala


I looked at one of those for a while, but the headtube is only 105 on the large. I could have run headset spacers or riser bars, but opted for the longer headtube found on Vassago frames.


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## azmoto694 (Nov 11, 2008)

*SS Full Suspension*

I just got into the XC SS game. Started racing this year in Arizona. No prior SS experience, but knew going into it, I can't ride a hardtail. Too many back issues to mess with it. So got a new Giant Anthem Advanced Pro 1 geared AXS bike and then took my 2018 Giant geared bike and converted it to SS. Chose the PS XD Driver SS conversion and used Paul Components chain tensioner. Took me a bit to get it dialed, but it hauls ass, climbs like a champ and you can bomb descents. Its about 22 lbs now but could get it into the higher 20 lbs range with my race wheels. Its an XL.

Could of my buddies I race say a SS isn't supposed to be full suspension. I just laugh.


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## AbnInf (Dec 1, 2010)

I just ordered a 2018 Jamis Dragonslayer Pro 26+ from Jensen. They have the Pro and Sport for 50% off. After a $75 oversize charge I got a $2500 bike for $1324. I'm going to run it geared with light 27.5 wheels for racing, but for trail riding I'm converting it to a single speed with the 26x3 tires, which is about the same diameter as a regular 27.5 but better traction. My nearest trails are pretty sandy. It has sliding dropouts so it's ready to go.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

azmoto694 said:


> I just got into the XC SS game. Started racing this year in Arizona. No prior SS experience, but knew going into it, I can't ride a hardtail. Too many back issues to mess with it. So got a new Giant Anthem Advanced Pro 1 geared AXS bike and then took my 2018 Giant geared bike and converted it to SS. Chose the PS XD Driver SS conversion and used Paul Components chain tensioner. Took me a bit to get it dialed, but it hauls ass, climbs like a champ and you can bomb descents. Its about 22 lbs now but could get it into the higher 20 lbs range with my race wheels. Its an XL.


If I hadn't just converted my 2012 Anthem to 1x9, it'd be running 32/22 with a modified Zee rear mech


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

AbnInf said:


> I just ordered a 2018 Jamis Dragonslayer Pro 26+ from Jensen. They have the Pro and Sport for 50% off. After a $75 oversize charge I got a $2500 bike for $1324. I'm going to run it geared with light 27.5 wheels for racing, but for trail riding I'm converting it to a single speed with the 26x3 tires, which is about the same diameter as a regular 27.5 but better traction. My nearest trails are pretty sandy. It has sliding dropouts so it's ready to go.


I've never ridden the dragonslayer, but i loved my dragon back in the day. I think you will love it

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## AbnInf (Dec 1, 2010)

Rod said:


> I've never ridden the dragonslayer, but i loved my dragon back in the day. I think you will love it
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


The Dragon's were nice bikes. But I guess mine will slay them haha


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## azmoto694 (Nov 11, 2008)

NordieBoy said:


> If I hadn't just converted my 2012 Anthem to 1x9, it'd be running 32/22 with a modified Zee rear mech


That's cool. I wonder what the best chain tensioner is for this setup. So far it works flawless. So maybe I shouldn't even wonder, if ain't broke don't fix it mentality.


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## Weinerts (Feb 3, 2011)

I always have a single speed set up ready to ride. 
I have a Trek Stashe - that is really amazing - but I let my son ride it now that he is tall enough. I am a huge fan of plus tires- but ride my Pugsley at lot more than the Trek.

For the last year my 2008/9 (?) Jabberwocky was the bike I chose to ride. We have a lot of steep trails in San Diego and I have the power - but on our last ride I stripped the crank arm off of the left side (stronger leg?) . Not sure if bolt was loose or what - but it has never happened before. 

So the Pugsley donated it gears and front derailleur (sorry Vassago purists) mount thingie - to get the bike rolling again. (the Pugs is going through an IGH transformation just waiting on a bmx chain to finish the job). I converted it to a 3 X 9 and my wife has now adopted it as her bike.. (she was out in the mud Sunday wearing lulu crap and having a blast!) IF she wants to ride - it is hers!!! 


The moral of the story is - single speed is so much fun. It is a great way to make a bike roll again and get on the trails. 

I think that it is fine that we do not see more MonoCogs - the Jabber is my top all time favorite bikes - long live the single speed!


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## rob1035 (Apr 20, 2007)

So bringing this old thread back. What is currently out there that is decently SS-able (sliders, swingers, EBB I guess), that doesn't require a 130mm+ fork?

Air 9 RDO
??????


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

rob1035 said:


> So bringing this old thread back. What is currently out there that is decently SS-able (sliders, swingers, EBB I guess), that doesn't require a 130mm+ fork?
> 
> Air 9 RDO
> ??????


I was thinking about this today. I don't think there's a single SS frame out there, sub $1,200, that I would buy right now. Even the more expensive options seem to miss the geometry mark, or they use EBB, or something.

Hang on, I'm going to go do a search.

Edit:

Meh, nothing. Anything above $1,200 puts you within a stones throw of a custom frame. That's the only option I would consider at this point. I'll pay a little extra to get what I want and have a frame that fits me well and I 'probably' won't break.


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## rob1035 (Apr 20, 2007)

That’s what I found as well. Kind of a bummer, but oh well.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

*Seven Singlespeed 120mm Braap....*

It still weighs 21 pounds, as-is. I'm not strong enough - but in the right hands...(and legs) this full ti beast can slay XC0 courses:


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

*OneSpeed* said:


> I was thinking about this today. I don't think there's a single SS frame out there, sub $1,200, that I would buy right now. Even the more expensive options seem to miss the geometry mark, or they use EBB, or something.
> 
> Hang on, I'm going to go do a search.
> 
> ...


Esker Hayduke? They spec it with a 120mm fork, and has a 67.6 deg HTA at 30% sag. Not much in the way of lightweight steel being built any longer since Ritchey hung up the P29er, but also not a bad deal at $750.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

https://surlybikes.com/bikes/karate_monkey


*OneSpeed* said:


> I was thinking about this today. I don't think there's a single SS frame out there, sub $1,200, that I would buy right now. Even the more expensive options seem to miss the geometry mark, or they use EBB, or something.


what is the subjective "geometry mark" you are trying to hit?

in case this is what you're looking for, here are some bikes with slightly older-style geometry:
Voodoo Dambala

Kona Unit

Surly Karate Monkey

Milwaukee Grit


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## Intramural (Nov 6, 2016)

I just bought a new epic hardtail frame from specialized (I work in a spec shop). I'm super excited about the modern geo and light weight.

I'm giving the trickstuff exzentriker a shot. We'll see how that goes. Philcentric seems viable as well.

I had the Pivot LES and raced it to a 62nd overall and 1st place ss at leadville. I just couldn't get the damn dropouts to stop creaking.

SS is by no means dead! Does anyone here read the radavist? Plus, I'm willing to bet the covid-19 cycling craze will add some breadth to the market that will benefit SS. Not to mention a wide variety of companies that still make ss specific free hub body's and shells (i-9 CK paul white DT etc.).

The Santa Cruz Chameleon looks cool, but no boost?!









Sent from my S48c using Tapatalk


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## jumpman (Jul 16, 2008)

What about the new Spot Rocker carbon?


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## ghood (Dec 26, 2011)

jumpman said:


> What about the new Spot Rocker carbon?


The new Rocker caught my eye too. But spending that kind of money on a bike with a belt drive gives me pause, just because I am not familiar with how they hold up under consistent hard riding. Anyone that's ridden a belt drive hard over a period of months or years care to compare their durability and maintenance compared to a traditional chain setup? I posted this question on the manufacturer's forum a while back with no responses.


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## jumpman (Jul 16, 2008)

My thought was to ride until the belt required some annoying amount of maintenance, then switch to a chain.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

jumpman said:


> My thought was to ride until the belt required some annoying amount of maintenance, then switch to a chain.


You'd be surprised how robust the Gates Carbon belt drive has become. If a car timing belt can withstand 100,000 miles of high revolutions inside a constantly hot engine - then 10,000 mile bike belt change intervals is nothing, by comparison.

Here is my Bamboo belt drive Singlespeed messenger/commuter, for attention:









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Intramural said:


> I just bought a new epic hardtail frame from specialized (I work in a spec shop). I'm super excited about the modern geo and light weight.
> 
> I'm giving the trickstuff exzentriker a shot. We'll see how that goes. Philcentric seems viable as well.
> 
> ...


I have a friend who races the epic hardtail. He's a big guy and if he can do it successfully then I think most of us mortals can.

Congrats at Leadville. That's quiet an accomplishment, especially with one gear.

As you mentioned, there are quiet a lot of nice SS frames out today. There's the LES, XTC, Chameleon, Timberjack or you could convert the Epic hardtail. That's ignoring all the smaller manufactures such as Vassago, Chumba, etc. who also make extremely good or better products than the ones I listed earlier. If you want a SS that you can race there should be plenty on the market. The landscape has really changed since this post was originally made.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

ghood said:


> The new Rocker caught my eye too. But spending that kind of money on a bike with a belt drive gives me pause, just because I am not familiar with how they hold up under consistent hard riding. Anyone that's ridden a belt drive hard over a period of months or years care to compare their durability and maintenance compared to a traditional chain setup? I posted this question on the manufacturer's forum a while back with no responses.


A buddy of mine is on the last version steel Rocker that Spot made, and he just switched from belt back to chain. Sounded like he had a problem killing belts with rock hits and such.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

Do think make Oval Gates rings?


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## Intramural (Nov 6, 2016)

ghood said:


> The new Rocker caught my eye too. But spending that kind of money on a bike with a belt drive gives me pause, just because I am not familiar with how they hold up under consistent hard riding. Anyone that's ridden a belt drive hard over a period of months or years care to compare their durability and maintenance compared to a traditional chain setup? I posted this question on the manufacturer's forum a while back with no responses.


I installed belt drive on a Spot probably 3 years ago at the shop I work in and I have to say, if they are improperly tensioned they can make a horrific amount of noise. The customer who I did the install for was not good at tensioning either so I did it quite a bit. I wasn't too impressed.

My biggest problem with the belt drive is the split frame. It just sounds like it could lead to all sorts of issues and noise.

All that said... I'd still be interested in trying it ? and the new spot looks badass. Just one more great SS option!

Perhaps I need to accept that no bike is perfect, although I would really like to try a vassago if my epic and exzentriker don't meet my needs... ?


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## Intramural (Nov 6, 2016)

Rod said:


> I have a friend who races the epic hardtail. He's a big guy and if he can do it successfully then I think most of us mortals can.
> 
> Congrats at Leadville. That's quiet an accomplishment, especially with one gear.
> 
> As you mentioned, there are quiet a lot of nice SS frames out today. There's the LES, XTC, Chameleon, Timberjack or you could convert the Epic hardtail. That's ignoring all the smaller manufactures such as Vassago, Chumba, etc. who also make extremely good or better products than the ones I listed earlier. If you want a SS that you can race there should be plenty on the market. The landscape has really changed since this post was originally made.


Thanks on Leadville. Its an absolutely awful single speed course. Lots of pancake flat and lots of steep climbing. At the end of the day you just gotta pick the biggest gear you can manage for columbine and then hack it through the rest.

Regardless, the LES is a seriously fast xcss. And worthy of consideration. Its pretty seamless. The swingers just always creaked for me.

That's good to hear about you buddy on the Epic HT because durability is a big concern for me with a 800g frame hopefully I don't brake it.

I just don't see single speeding going away. Its always been a niche part of a niche sport. But, let's not forget a lot of bike geeks work for bike companies which is why we see bikes like the LES or the Chameleon being designed. Some of these guys get it. Single speeding will just never be as financially lucrative as selling $3000 electric cruiser bikes


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Rod said:


> The landscape has really changed since this post was originally made.


I can't say I fully agree with this. Yes there are more trail hardtail options with 130-150mm forks, but the Op was talking about XC SS's. To me that means 120mm or less by modern standards.

The carbon options are fine for racing, but I'm not interested if it's not steel. Still very few options out there.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

*OneSpeed* said:


> I can't say I fully agree with this. Yes there are more trail hardtail options with 130-150mm forks, but the Op was talking about XC SS's. To me that means 120mm or less by modern standards.
> 
> The carbon options are fine for racing, but I'm not interested if it's not steel. Still very few options out there.


I completely agree with the lack of a nice XC steel single speed that's mass produced. The options that are mass produced are heavier frames.


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## Klainmeister (Apr 14, 2012)

If Ritchey would just add sliders or a ebb to their HT it would sell like hot cakes, methinks. My buddy has the older P29 and it comes in at 20lbs. Quality ride, beautiful bike.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

The Chumba Stella is still probably exactly what most of you are looking for. it just doesn't have that "mass produced" price tag. the cheaper alternatives are often overbuilt and heavy.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Klainmeister said:


> If Ritchey would just add sliders or a ebb to their HT it would sell like hot cakes, methinks. My buddy has the older P29 and it comes in at 20lbs. Quality ride, beautiful bike.


They actually did make a version of the P29 with sliders. I think they only made it for like one year though. Probably impossible to get your hands on one.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Klainmeister said:


> If Ritchey would just add sliders or a ebb to their HT it would sell like hot cakes, methinks. My buddy has the older P29 and it comes in at 20lbs. Quality ride, beautiful bike.


Or if Niner just replaced the EBB with sliders and added a threaded BB...


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> They actually did make a version of the P29 with sliders. I think they only made it for like one year though. Probably impossible to get your hands on one.


Hence, this thread.


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## Intramural (Nov 6, 2016)

Okay. But here is the thing. Its not about if "lightweight affordable non custom builder hardtail steel xc geometry single speeding" is dead 

That's 100% dead. 

XC single speeding is 100% NOT dead.


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## jumpman (Jul 16, 2008)

Intramural said:


> My biggest problem with the belt drive is the split frame. It just sounds like it could lead to all sorts of issues and noise.


The same could probably be said about sliders though. If they aren't tightened properly, slipping and noise definitely occurs.


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## Intramural (Nov 6, 2016)

jumpman said:


> The same could probably be said about sliders though. If they aren't tightened properly, slipping and noise definitely occurs.


That's fair. I like surlys dropout system the most. The sliding chips are not great. But it's not like if you have a split frame you don't have to somehow tension the belt still. Plus you can't lengthen or shorten belts. You have to own multiple of them.


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

*OneSpeed* said:


> I can't say I fully agree with this. Yes there are more trail hardtail options with 130-150mm forks, but the Op was talking about XC SS's. To me that means 120mm or less by modern standards.
> 
> The carbon options are fine for racing, but I'm not interested if it's not steel. Still very few options out there.


Agree. And I am sure that in his original post, Dicky was also referencing production dedicated SS frames. Pretty much every frame that someone has posted here to to counter his issue, is also setup to run gears. Find me a steel frame that is not custom, or a near custom price, that is not overbuilt, setup to also run gears, has rack mounts and screws sticking out of it everywhere to carry bike packing equipment. A person can make any bike a SS, but one of the great things about a dedicated SS frame is how sleek and clean it looks. Or at least it should.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

_dedicated_ SS frames that have no derailer hanger whatsoever have always been a tiny niche. even the Flight version of the Redline Monocog had a hanger and guides for shift cables. are we looking to a mythical past when there were a bunch of bikes existed there were:
•mass-producted/cheap
•lightweight
•singlespeed-specific?

I might have missed it. what year was this Golden Age? what bikes fit these criteria?

it makes zero sense for a manufacturer to make a bike that precludes the option of putting gears on it for such a tiny sliver of the market that would want such a thing. if you think that kind of product can be mass-produced in quantities that would would be sold enough to make any money, you're dreaming. how do I know this? because the market doesn't make such a thing often. when they do, they sell a bunch and then move on to making stuff that the other 99% of the market actually wants.

do any of you actually consider the presence of a derailer hanger to be a deal-breaker?


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

BrianU said:


> Agree. And I am sure that in his original post, Dicky was also referencing production dedicated SS frames. Pretty much every frame that someone has posted here to to counter his issue, is also setup to run gears. Find me a steel frame that is not custom, or a near custom price, that is not overbuilt, setup to also run gears, has rack mounts and screws sticking out of it everywhere to carry bike packing equipment. A person can make any bike a SS, but one of the great things about a dedicated SS frame is how sleek and clean it looks. Or at least it should.


Versatility is not a bad thing, especially from a manufacture's point of view. One bike can serve many purposes and please many users. The XC SS is not dead. The people who would like a 853 steel, new school XC geo, 5 pounds, without rack mounts, mass produced, threaded bb, and an affordable price is dead. They simply couldn't sell enough of those bikes. We are a niche group. That's why we have the versatile carbon or steel bikes with warts. If you can look past the warts, I really like the new monkey.

All of the carbon bikes I mentioned make some very nice SS machines.


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## Klainmeister (Apr 14, 2012)

New Monkey is nice, but at 6' i find that stack height pretty atrocious.

Whats the verdict on the Soma Juice? Other than the frame warts, it seems to check _most_ the boxes.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

mack_turtle said:


> The Chumba Stella is still probably exactly what most of you are looking for. it just doesn't have that "mass produced" price tag. the cheaper alternatives are often overbuilt and heavy.


I'm sorry, but this bike is too old school in the geometry department for me. I'm sure it's a nice frame but it honestly amazes me anyone is still making a frame with these geo numbers. With the exception of tire clearance, it's literally right out of 2009. Not good.

In my size (XL) it has a 70.5 HTA, 72.5 STA, Long chainstays, and a *443mm Reach!?* That's insanely short. I would need a 130mm stem, maybe more.

I know they have other frames available with more modern geometry but the Stella totally misses the mark for me. If I wanted a frame from 2009 I'd just buy one.

At $1,550 you can have your pick of most any steel frame available, including entry level custom frames.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

443 mm reach in size XL is comical.....

There are size small bikes with longer reaches these days...


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## Klainmeister (Apr 14, 2012)

I agree with this sentiment. I hopped on an XL and it felt rather cramped for me. I'd hope for at least 460ish reach on a L, let a lone an XL.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I'm happy with 380mm reach on my large Kona Unit.


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

Rod said:


> Versatility is not a bad thing, especially from a manufacture's point of view. One bike can serve many purposes and please many users. The XC SS is not dead. The people who would like a 853 steel, new school XC geo, 5 pounds, without rack mounts, mass produced, threaded bb, and an affordable price is dead. They simply couldn't sell enough of those bikes. We are a niche group. That's why we have the versatile carbon or steel bikes with warts. If you can look past the warts, I really like the new monkey.
> 
> All of the carbon bikes I mentioned make some very nice SS machines.


I definitely get what you are saying about the high-end steel, new school geometry SS bikes without all the versatility doo dads and unfortunately, I think this is what Dicky was talking about. I got into SSing when Surly and Bianchi were the standard and both were dedicated singlespeeds. My first SS frame was a Fort Onyx, made in the Czech Republic. It was a steel beast and eventually replaced it with a 2008 Jabberwocky. Screws for two water bottle cages, routing only for a rear brake and even with Vassago's version of 4130 cro-moly, it weighed 24 pounds without me getting too concerned about light components. For me, it was and is what a SS should look like. Loved that bike and rode it for 9 years before cracking the frame.

This past May, was talking to the owner of a LBS and he mentioned that he had a new, old stock 2017 purple Karate Monkey frame in stock. Bought it on the spot. I can deal with rack mounts and derailleur hanger, but that fork with all those warts is a real eye sore and bought a Salsa Grande CroMoto thru-axle fork for it. I too am also really liking this bike.


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> _dedicated_ SS frames that have no derailer hanger whatsoever have always been a tiny niche. even the Flight version of the Redline Monocog had a hanger and guides for shift cables. are we looking to a mythical past when there were a bunch of bikes existed there were:
> •mass-producted/cheap
> •lightweight
> •singlespeed-specific?
> ...


In the early 2000's, single speeding was seen as extreme and rad. I can remember this one guy showing up to local races, lots of tatoos and wearing cut down farmer overalls. He was a sight to behold. The wallpaper on my phone is the score sheet from a time trial that was part of a local race I attended in 2002. This was an open event and the fastest time was also the point lead for his age group in the state series XC expert class. Second was a guy on a rigid Surly 1X1. 6th was a guy on a steel Bianchi. At one time or another, Bianchi, Surly, Vassago, Salsa, Kona, Redline, OnOne, GT, Niner, and Cannondale made dedicated single speeds. These were all mass produced, some were cheap and some were actually fairly light weight. This lasted I would estimate for about 5-6 years and the mountain biker community is a trendy crowd. They then moved on to the next latest and greatest and like you said, the industry moved on to what the other 99% thought they wanted.

Given the option, I would opt for no derailleur hanger. Until I win the lotto or inherit a large sum of cash from some unknown relative and can have Walt build exactly what I want with no damn rack mounts and for me, excess baggage for running gears, I'll live with a purple KM. Despite the rack mounts and hanger, it is a cool bike.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

BrianU said:


> I definitely get what you are saying about the high-end steel, new school geometry SS bikes without all the versatility doo dads and unfortunately, I think this is what Dicky was talking about. I got into SSing when Surly and Bianchi were the standard and both were dedicated singlespeeds. My first SS frame was a Fort Onyx, made in the Czech Republic. It was a steel beast and eventually replaced it with a 2008 Jabberwocky. Screws for two water bottle cages, routing only for a rear brake and even with Vassago's version of 4130 cro-moly, it weighed 24 pounds without me getting too concerned about light components. For me, it was and is what a SS should look like. Loved that bike and rode it for 9 years before cracking the frame.
> 
> This past May, was talking to the owner of a LBS and he mentioned that he had a new, old stock 2017 purple Karate Monkey frame in stock. Bought it on the spot. I can deal with rack mounts and derailleur hanger, but that fork with all those warts is a real eye sore and bought a Salsa Grande CroMoto thru-axle fork for it. I too am also really liking this bike.


I remember this era. I went to a race in ohio and a guy showed up who was easily 6'6 or 6'8 on his SS. He put down the best time at the event.

I never installed the surly rigid fork on my bike. I completely agree with everything you said about it.

As with everything, I'm sure it will come back in style. I hope it's soon so I can buy that frame I described earlier.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

BrianU said:


> In the early 2000's, single speeding was seen as extreme and rad. I can remember this one guy showing up to local races, lots of tatoos and wearing cut down farmer overalls. He was a sight to behold. The wallpaper on my phone is the score sheet from a time trial that was part of a local race I attended in 2002. This was an open event and the fastest time was also the point lead for his age group in the state series XC expert class. Second was a guy on a rigid Surly 1X1. 6th was a guy on a steel Bianchi. At one time or another, Bianchi, Surly, Vassago, Salsa, Kona, Redline, OnOne, GT, Niner, and Cannondale made dedicated single speeds. These were all mass produced, some were cheap and some were actually fairly light weight. This lasted I would estimate for about 5-6 years and the mountain biker community is a trendy crowd. They then moved on to the next latest and greatest and like you said, the industry moved on to what the other 99% thought they wanted.
> 
> Given the option, I would opt for no derailleur hanger. Until I win the lotto or inherit a large sum of cash from some unknown relative and can have Walt build exactly what I want with no damn rack mounts and for me, excess baggage for running gears, I'll live with a purple KM. Despite the rack mounts and hanger, it is a cool bike.


Jamis also had the Exile Singlespeed, first in 26 and later in 29. Reynolds 631. I still have my 2003 Jamis Dakota XC, which I believe is pretty much the geared version, though mine is converted to be SS with the magic gear ratio.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Klainmeister said:


> Whats the verdict on the Soma Juice? Other than the frame warts, it seems to check _most_ the boxes.


I would do your research on the Juice. I have multiple friends that have broken Soma frames. I've seen a broken Juice and multiple broken B-Sides. The Wolverine was also notorious for breaking (which they claim to have fixed).

I will say that all of those friends who broke frames got new ones. Their warranty process was pretty good. Just depends on how often you want to deal with that sort of thing.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

BrianU said:


> In the early 2000's, single speeding was seen as extreme and rad.


I see. so this trend had faded by nearly a decade and a half at the time this discussion came up. I don't think it's coming back. if there was enough market demand for this sort of bike, those companies would be making and selling these bikes. trends come and go, and, as much as I'd like to see rad, affordable SS-specific XC bikes come back, it's unlikely. the trend is going to opposite way. hardtails are "obsolete" according to many bike snobs who think "underbiking" is a novelty joke, cassette ranges keep getting bigger as if riders are seeking a bike that can Spider-man up vertical walls, and bikes are getting electric motors. I am not holding my breath waiting to Make Singlespeeding Great Again. good options are out there, we just have to pay more or lower expectations.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

BushwackerinPA said:


> 443 mm reach in size XL is comical.....
> 
> There are size small bikes with longer reaches these days...





Klainmeister said:


> I agree with this sentiment. I hopped on an XL and it felt rather cramped for me. I'd hope for at least 460ish reach on a L, let a lone an XL.


it's not for people like you. it's an old-school bike for people who want a long stem and narrower tires. the fastest rider i know-on any bike, bar none-rides a Stella with a 100mm Sid, 2.2 tires and a "long" stem. it's not the bike that matters, but it's what he's used to so it works for him.

The Sendero has conservative geometry for what it is, but it's more progressive than the Stella. it seems to be a bike for people who want a more progressive bike, but aren't interested in going full enduro-bro. spend some time riding the home terrain where this bike was designed and you'd understand.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

mack_turtle said:


> The Sendero has conservative geometry for what it is, but it's more progressive than the Stella. it seems to be a bike for people who want a more progressive bike, but aren't interested in going full enduro-bro. spend some time riding the home terrain where this bike was designed and you'd understand.


I personally feel like the Sendero fills a pretty big gap in the market at this point. I don't hate new school geo's, but most of them are certainly way too far for what I enjoy (at least as far as hardtails are concerned). The only thing that really competes with the Sendero at the moment is the Karate Monkey. As much as I love Surly, I'd say the Sendero probably perfects what the Monkey is trying to accomplish, and without being a boat anchor.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> As much as I love Surly, I'd say the Sendero probably perfects what the Monkey is trying to accomplish, and without being a boat anchor.


conversely, the Karate Monkey accomplished what the Sendero does, but without being a financial boat anchor to people with limited budgets. (which is why I ride a Surly and not a Chumba.) don't get me wrong, I understand why some things cost more than others. it's just a matter of income level and responsible spending on a hobby for me. I'd spend more to get a better product if I could justify it.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

mack_turtle said:


> conversely, the Karate Monkey accomplished what the Sendero does, but without being a financial boat anchor to people with limited budgets. (which is why I ride a Surly and not a Chumba.) don't get me wrong, I understand why some things cost more than others. it's just a matter of income level and responsible spending on a hobby for me. I'd spend more to get a better product if I could justify it.


Definitely, and if you're looking at it from a purely monetary standpoint the Monkey makes way more sense. I don't want to see Chumba get ripped off, but it seems like it would be a really smart move for larger companies to start jumping on this bandwagon and throttling back the geo for maybe one or two models.

I think Specialized was trying to dip their toes in with the updated Fuse, but it still kind of missed the mark. It's still a bit low slung to compare to the Sendero.

Edit: When I say missed the mark I mean for coming up with something that does what the Sendero does. It definitely didn't miss the mark when it comes to getting people excited. That bike sold like hot cakes.


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> I see. so this trend had faded by nearly a decade and a half at the time this discussion came up. I don't think it's coming back. if there was enough market demand for this sort of bike, those companies would be making and selling these bikes. trends come and go, and, as much as I'd like to see rad, affordable SS-specific XC bikes come back, it's unlikely. the trend is going to opposite way. hardtails are "obsolete" according to many bike snobs who think "underbiking" is a novelty joke, cassette ranges keep getting bigger as if riders are seeking a bike that can Spider-man up vertical walls, and bikes are getting electric motors. I am not holding my breath waiting to Make Singlespeeding Great Again. good options are out there, we just have to pay more or lower expectations.


LOL! Yep, that sounds about right.


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## rob1035 (Apr 20, 2007)

Damn, the stella looks pretty spot on!


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

mack_turtle said:


> it's not for people like you. it's an old-school bike for people who want a long stem and narrower tires. the fastest rider i know-on any bike, bar none-rides a Stella with a 100mm Sid, 2.2 tires and a "long" stem. it's not the bike that matters, but it's what he's used to so it works for him.
> 
> The Sendero has conservative geometry for what it is, but it's more progressive than the Stella. it seems to be a bike for people who want a more progressive bike, but aren't interested in going full enduro-bro. spend some time riding the home terrain where this bike was designed and you'd understand.


using what you are used to is kind of dumb, especially if you could be faster by changing...


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

BushwackerinPA said:


> using what you are used to is kind of dumb, especially if you could be faster by changing...


And some of us have tried changing, found it was slower and went back to to what we were were comfortable with.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

what did you change to?


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## serious (Jan 25, 2005)

BrianU said:


> Agree. And I am sure that in his original post, Dicky was also referencing production dedicated SS frames. Pretty much every frame that someone has posted here to to counter his issue, is also setup to run gears. Find me a steel frame that is not custom, or a near custom price, that is not overbuilt, setup to also run gears, has rack mounts and screws sticking out of it everywhere to carry bike packing equipment. A person can make any bike a SS, but one of the great things about a dedicated SS frame is how sleek and clean it looks. Or at least it should.


Here is a dedicated SS bike. The frame is now 8 years old and has seen tons of races, including over 25 solo 8 hour races. Everything has been replaced on this frame, this year new drivetrain and tires.

Started as 34:19, then 32:19 and now I switched to 30:19, because I am 58 years old and this year's 8 hour solo (covid version time trial style) killed me.

I will probably never sell it. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## asphaltdude (Sep 17, 2008)

nvm


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## ghood (Dec 26, 2011)

I sure wish salsa would re-issue an updated Selma.


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## KonaSS (Sep 29, 2004)

ghood said:


> I sure wish salsa would re-issue an updated Selma.


I have a Ti Salsa Timberjack that I run with a 100mm fork. Imho - brings the geometry right into modern hardtail range - pretty much an updated Selma.


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## ghood (Dec 26, 2011)

KonaSS said:


> I have a Ti Salsa Timberjack that I run with a 100mm fork. Imho - brings the geometry right into modern hardtail range - pretty much an updated Selma.


If they sold a complete for under $3500 I'd buy it.


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