# The beautiful welds thread



## einstein (Jan 13, 2004)

I don't know about you but nothing on a bike is more sexy than the roll of nickles that are perfectly spaced. Pure art. Here's a bike a found on ebay that has some of the nicest i've ever seen. https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=220079046802&rd=1&rd=1


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## soulrida (Nov 27, 2006)

Are you kidding me???

I think the sexiest things about carbon frames is there weldlessness. Everything flows together so nicely.


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## mibrady2 (Oct 26, 2006)

yeah, I dig the titanium motolites. too lazy to post a picture though.


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## C24C (Oct 22, 2006)

Some pretty nice looking welds on a custom Scandium road frame from Intense.


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## mibrady2 (Oct 26, 2006)

Except when you can see the glue coming out from where they butt them together.


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## einstein (Jan 13, 2004)

Oh come one, you have to at least appreciate the craftsmanship it takes to produce these incredible welds. Ya titanium done right can make extremely nice tight beaded welds. The huge dallop beads of aluminum look awesome to me.


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## snowjnky (Oct 7, 2005)

*Old skool & New skool*

When talking about weld you must mention Tom













\
sorry best I could find

But you must also mention Mr. Potts


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

Welds are a necessary ugly.


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## hizzity (Mar 2, 2006)

snowjnky said:


> When talking about weld you must mention Tom
> View attachment 233936
> 
> View attachment 233934
> ...


Mr Potts just made my pants a lot tighter


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## snowjnky (Oct 7, 2005)

hizzity said:


> Mr Potts just made my pants a lot tighter


I thought I was the only one


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## LIFECYCLE (Mar 8, 2006)

I am not 100% sure but i think that planet x frame is hydroformed tubing and that so called gusset isnt what it seems.Fake welds!!!


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## dnlwthrn (Jan 26, 2006)

Paulmtb4, it looks like the upper joint in your picture had too much heat and not enough fill. The undercutting you see is NOT good, as it reduces the weld strength. Not saying I could do a better job... The bottom joint looks much better.

I will agree with some of you here. A good TIG welder is really an artist as well as a builder. And my experience tells me that its not easy becoming an amazing welder...


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Welder Chris Moore at Eriksen ( used to be the man at Moots) is the king.


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## AteMrYeats (Oct 26, 2004)

Carl Strong has welded many many frames of all types, and I particularly like this photo. My steel bike has welds which are mostly invisible under the powdercoat.


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## DanB (Jul 10, 2004)

AteMrYeats said:


> Carl Strong has welded many many frames of all types, and I particularly like this photo. My steel bike has welds which are mostly invisible under the powdercoat.


I second Carl Strong's welds. They are a work of art!!!


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## rickthescot (Feb 11, 2005)

Somtimens I just stare at the beautiful puddles that comprise my Ellsworth ISIS. It's stunning.


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## exvitermini (Aug 11, 2006)

dnlwthrn said:


> Paulmtb4, it looks like the upper joint in your picture had too much heat and not enough fill. The undercutting you see is NOT good, as it reduces the weld strength. Not saying I could do a better job... The bottom joint looks much better.
> 
> I will agree with some of you here. A good TIG welder is really an artist as well as a builder. And my experience tells me that its not easy becoming an amazing welder...


i have to agree undercuttings not good and is ugly as hell!


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## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

It's tough to top my Moots stem.


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## dirtdrop (Dec 29, 2003)

IF welds.


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

Paulmtb4 said:


>


If I welded like that, I'd get fired.


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## Horus (Oct 21, 2006)

Even the pranciest art welds are butt-ug compared to proper fillet brazing.

Bob B wrote up a nice little example: (https://bobbrowncycles.blogspot.com/2006_03_01_bobbrowncycles_archive.html):

...The best part about doing repaints is getting to see naked frames! Seriously, I love seeing how other builders or companies do things and you can't tell that through layers of paint and putty. I've got a unique batch of frames in right which include an Original Tom Ritchey fillet brazed bike (Ritchey Annapurna), an 80's Pinnarello, a 70's Falcon, and a few other regionally made handbuilts by several builders who shall remain nameless. They really represent a variety of construction methods and quality levels.



The Ritchey 1s probably my favorite in terms of the sheer amount of time Tom must have put in to this thing. It's a unique design that Tom used with "pseudo-lugs" at the head-tube and seat-tube. He made tubing sleeves to slip over the tube, then layed down huge fillets over those to make the appearance of lugs, but they're not exactly lugs. The seatlug shown here is the closest thing to a lug as it had sleeves on both tubes. The finish work on the fillets is amazing, they're huge and flowing and hardly a pinhole anywhere.

The shape is great (if you like huge fillets) and very even.
​
The headtube is pretty neat too. With paint on it, this looked pretty close to being lugged, but in reality, the bands on the ends of the headtube were machined in place. Yup, he turned down the headtube from a thicker tube just to get those reinforcing bands on the ends. Again, the huge fillets give a very unique look to the joints, and the "lug" points are filed very thin and even. Very clan brazing on them as well, especially for using brass. To be honest, these are the best shaped (in terms of not needing any filler to look like a perfect radius) that I've seen on any bare frame.
​
The brake bosses are impressive as well. No need to worry about those suckers coming off! this is the largest build up of brass I've seen on a boss, but he sculpted it very well. This is purly an artisan touch, no functional value at all. Probably not something I would do as I don't like the look, but the execution is fantastic.

Overall, nice work Tom.

 
Then compare that to this early 70's Falcon. There really isn't much comparison. This thing has filler material all over the place, especially in places that there really shouldn't be filler. There's brass all over the shell, and lots of copper showing. The copper is a direct indicator of overheating during brazing. When you overheat the brass filler to the point that it boils, the zinc is boiled off leaving the copper. In reality this is very typical for English made bikes of the 70's & 80's, tons of heat applied, sloppily throw some brass at it and call it good. Functionally this fairly sloppy construction method wasn't much of a problem because the tubing used was pretty thick walled and gave them a big margin of error.
​
This next one is a mid 80's Pinarello. I've done a few Pinnarello repaints and I have to say I'm consistently impressed with the quality on these. Most Italian frames of this era were constructed similarly to the Falcon shown above; overheated and sloppy. Pinnarello seemed to actually care about build quality though and really hit the details. This frame was actually silver brazed which is quite unusual due to the higher cost of silver. The lugs, shell, crown and dropouts were all investment cast specifically for Pinnarello (which is a huge investment). All the cast part shave detail engravings, and all the brazing is clean and well done. The lug shorelines are pretty crisp and there isn't any extra filler material floating around. I've seen far worse work from some fairly "high end" US custom builders.
​ 

Honestly these are the only Italian made frames I've come across that really impress me. Most of them historically have been pretty shoddy.


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## Ross W. (Jul 3, 2006)

Doesn't really show much of the welds, but..


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## BillT (Dec 24, 2003)

LIFECYCLE said:


> I am not 100% sure but i think that planet x frame is hydroformed tubing and that so called gusset isnt what it seems.Fake welds!!!


I have that exact frame and you are correct...the welds are fake, they were put in to look 'pretty' on the hydroformed tube.


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

As good as any welds are they're still fugly.

My '55 Peugeot's headtube with it's cut lugs and silver soldered joints.


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

edoz said:


> If I welded like that, I'd get fired.


Everyone have new accounts these days?

And what are you doing these days eric, welding?


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

lidarman said:


> Everyone have new accounts these days?
> 
> And what are you doing these days eric, welding?


Yup. The shop where I work has a laser, and I've been taking a drafting class, so I have had some single speed chainrings made and some brake rotors as well. Right now I'm building a frame jig.


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## the Inbred (Jan 13, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> It's tough to top my Moots stem.


damn...


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Mike T. said:


> It's tough to top my Moots stem.


Anybody that says welds are butt ugly or fugly after looking at these is a damn fool.


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

edoz said:


> If I welded like that, I'd get fired.


These look more like Pete's roll cage photos than a bike frame.


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

radair said:


> These look more like Pete's roll cage photos than a bike frame.


Exacty what they are..

They have held up so long cuz he hasn't rolled the sucker.










I'm starting to wonder how many accounts he has on MTBR.

(photo stolen from Pete's hosting account)


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

I'm no fool but grew up in a time when the best frames were constructed from beautiful lugs and marvelous tube sets.

Some of these welds are beautifully done but they're still open welds and making a weld look like a lug just seems foolish.


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## HUGH (Jan 7, 2004)




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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

I'm most impressed by Ritchey's fillet brazes. Best welds in this thread (IMO) go to Moots, IF, and Intense. Those are purely subjective, cosmetic judgements.


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## Horus (Oct 21, 2006)

Sixty Fiver said:


> I'm no fool but ... making a weld look like a lug just seems foolish.


You say you're no fool, but then you go and finish with that.

Perhaps fillet brazing is completely new and unfamiliar to you. That would explain why you lack all the basic information you would need to lack in order to:

1. Call fillet brazing welding
2. Assume that making fillets look like a lug was actually the goal
3. Have no idea what the advantages and disadvantages of lugged construction, welding, and FB are, and therefore why a builder would combine all the most difficult and labor-intensive aspects by FBing the sleeved, "faux lug" construction method.
4. Think that silver & brass with an investment-cast lug is still a good idea with modern thin-walled tubesets.


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## BikeMojo (Jan 6, 2005)

the Inbred said:


> damn...


-dustin, talk to Wes....










BTW, didn't we just cover all this in the General Forum not too long ago...


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## dirtdrop (Dec 29, 2003)

HUGH said:


>


Is that mine


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

Horus,

You should be careful when you call people fools lest you end up looking like one yourself and I'll give you point for even knowing what a lug is..

1. In some circles it's called filet braze *welding* which differentiates it from brazing / silver soldering which is a different process.

2. If making the filets look like lugs wasn't the goal, then why do it ? Faux means fake.

3. I am well versed in the advantages and disadvantages of different construction types, especially lugged construction.

4. You know nothing about lugged frames.

A few benefits of a lugged frame...

Thin walled tubing can be used throughout a lugged frame wheareas a tig welded frame requires the tube ends and headtube walls to be thicker to withstand the higher heat used in tig welding. Distortion is a major issue with tig welded frames where this is not a problem with a lugged frame as silver soldering does not create enough heat to distort or stress the materials..

Lugged joints are stronger and far more resistant to fatigue than lugless joints and a lugged frame will outlast a lugless frame. Repairing a lugged frame is far easier than repairing a tig welded frame.

I've been riding and wrenching on bikes for many decades and have a shop full of beautifully lugged frames that are elegant, lightweight, great to ride, and have stood the test of time and am in the process of tooling up my shop to start producing my own frames and components and yes... there will be lugs.

When I'm not doing that I'll keep working toward my journeyman certification as a machinist and welder.


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## HUGH (Jan 7, 2004)

uno-speedo said:


> Is that mine


Yup!
I took the picture this Saturday afternoon for ya. It looks so nice I thought I would post it a few times. I don't know the overall picture just does it for me!!

HUGH


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## Horus (Oct 21, 2006)

Sixty Fiver said:


> Horus


What do I know? I musta heard it on the radio somewhere...

Anonymity is interesting.


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## Burtonrider250 (Aug 31, 2006)

:thumbsup:


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

*Some not so pretty welds*

1989 Rocky Mountain Stratos. RM's first production aluminum bike I belive. Welded in Japan using 7000 series Yamakuni Al tubing.


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## DanB (Jul 10, 2004)

*Carl Strong*

Here are some of my Strong's welds. They are very tasty.


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## SlowSSer (Dec 19, 2003)

HUGH said:


>


hey welderboy- howz about showing us some of your fine welds? or is this your handiwork?!?!?!?!?!

and, no, I dont want to see your spokes.


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## MK_ (Nov 15, 2004)

*Nicolai*

It's hard to get much prettier than these as far as aluminum goes.

_MK


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Sixty Fiver said:


> Horus,
> 
> You should be careful when you call people fools lest you end up looking like one yourself ........... When I'm not doing that I'll keep working toward my journeyman certification as a machinist and welder.


With all due respect, the title of this thread is "beautiful welds". To call all welds "fugly" just because you prefer lugged frames is a bit short-sighted, wouldn't you agree? IMO, a better response would have been to start a "beautiful lugs" thread (and I'm sure you'd get some very worthy replies). I stand by my statement, directed toward you and Horus, regarding the Moots welds.

BTW, filet is associated with fish. Fine brazing is associated with fillets.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2007)

the welds on that nicolai look ROBUST. nice stuff.

the Willits stem looks finished. if it is, it can't be compared to unfinished welds. that is like comparing a cobbed and finished fillet braze to something like the Ti artists at Moots, Eriksen, Strong, etc produce. not the same thing.

i still hope to buy a decent tig welder and do some more welding. about two years ago the company i worked at needed an aluminum space frame welded up for a project i was working on and they weren't going to be able to get a vendor to weld it fast enough. i threw down and taught myself how to tig aluminum in about 4hrs and did all the welding myself. the welds weren't perfect, but by the end of the project i was laying pretty good beads (finished it in about 3 days). it is always fun to get the hands dirty and create stuff. most enginerds prefer to stay clean.


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

Radair... Some of us don't find exposed welds to be all that beautiful and to some of us, welding encompasses a broader range ot techniques from fillet braze welds, silver soldering or brazing, and fine lugwork.

Of all the work I have seen here, the Potts and Strong welds are most impressive in their craftsmanship and while some may get all wet over the Nicolai I don't find them to be at all attractive. 

The one thing that many people don't realize when they are looking at a pretty weld is that it's what's inside that counts and improper penetration or inadequate fusion can lead to catastrophic failures.

With brazed and lugged frames (and this also meets the definition of "weld") the risks of deformation, improper penetration, or insufficient fusion are minimized if not eliminated.

Once upon a time a bunch of marketting folks told us that Aluminum was superior to steel and that tig welded frames were superior to lugged frames... I see a strong trend where folks are realizing that steel is real and a few of us remember when bike frames had this little joints called lugs that held everything together. 

My belief in steel has never wavered and I was never convinced that a lugless frame was superior to a lugged frame... I own Aluminum bikes but know that their frames won't last as long as the luggged steel frames that have already been in service for 20, 30, 40, and 50 years.


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## cocheese (Jan 12, 2004)

My Eriksen and Pereira 29ers.


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

Sixty Fiver said:


> = I own Aluminum bikes but know that their frames won't last as long as the luggged steel frames that have already been in service for 20, 30, 40, and 50 years.


What a bummer for a frame to last way longer than one's desire for something new and different...gosh, 50 years might exceed someone's riding lifetime even.

That said, I have a ten year old schwinn Aluminum Homegrown Factory with 15,000 miles that hasn't cracked (knock on wood). I rarely ride it now but used to beat the crap out of it.

It is one of those those frames welded in Durango by the yeti folks...sure, cool welds but I just see welds as just the thing that holds the tubes together...rather not have em if I was into the look, but hey, whatever works to hold those tubes together.


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## Horus (Oct 21, 2006)

Sixty Fiver said:


> Blather blather blather...


You sure have a lot of hot opinions (and quite an ego) for a beginner framebuilder. If you think you're going to... nah knock yourself out. Good luck with your traditional steel framebuilding business.

I always enjoy scavenging extra fixtures and tubesets from builders in their third and final year.

See ya on ebay!


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## Ross W. (Jul 3, 2006)

Sixty Fiver said:


> it's what's inside that counts and improper penetration can lead to catastrophic failures.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Sixty Fiver said:


> Radair... Some of us don't find exposed welds to be all that beautiful and to some of us, welding encompasses a broader range ot techniques from fillet braze welds, silver soldering or brazing, and fine lugwork.
> 
> Of all the work I have seen here, the Potts and Strong welds are most impressive in their craftsmanship and while some may get all wet over the Nicolai I don't find them to be at all attractive.
> 
> ...


I think you are confusing the material properties with the construction methods. I could use aluminium lugs and braze and aluminium frame to look as good as a lugged steel frame but the lugged steel frame will still last longer. The aluminium frame will be lighter and stiffer though and therefore a better frame i think, however if you want something that's really going to last then you'd want a titanium frame, but that would be welded. At least it wouldn't have the corrosion problems that steel frames have (although it's not a major issue) and it would be lighter. Steel was a good material for it's time but other materials have surpassed it. Add to that to get a steel frame to be fairly light you have to have exceptionally thin walls on the tubing. 853 frames don't last forever if they are raced by a strong rider and other stuff like Aermet 100 never got off the ground for a number of reasons.

Steel frame construction is not difficult at all and lugged steel frame construction is probably the easiet form of framebuilding. I've made lugged steel frames, fillet brazed steel frames and TIG welded alumium frames and i don't see why the framebuilders hype up the craftsmanship involved in lugged construction, especially if they don't modify the lugs at all.

Lugged construction has the similar problems to welded frames if the lugs and tubes aren't cleaned properly. You don't want inclusions in lugs as much as you don't want them in welds. You don't want dry spots where brass or silver solder hasn't entered a lugged joint either. Every construction method has it's pros and cons. At the moment i think aluminium has the right balance of cost/weight/strength/design opportunities/etc.


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

Horus said:


> You sure have a lot of hot opinions (and quite an ego) for a beginner framebuilder. If you think you're going to... nah knock yourself out. Good luck with your traditional steel framebuilding business.
> 
> I always enjoy scavenging extra fixtures and tubesets from builders in their third and final year.
> 
> See ya on ebay!


Horus,

Funny, I don't recall ever saying "blather blather blather".

We all have our own opinions and when one disagrees with those opinions (as you do with mine) they should state why they disagree and perhaps even present some facts to support those opinions.

Try that will ya ?

Cheers!


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## dash (Mar 23, 2006)

That looks bad a$$



MK_ said:


> It's hard to get much prettier than these as far as aluminum goes.
> 
> _MK


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

crank, 

I appreciate your reasoned response although I suffer from no confusion when it comes to differentiating between materials and the various methods involved in construction. 

I would disagree when you say that steel has had it's day although it has been surpassed by aluminum for quite some time... the increase in demand for quality steel frames might herald a reversal to this trend as people look for bikes that offer great rideability and performance along with a durability and service life that aluminum cannot match.

The guys at Columbus and Reynolds must be pretty happy as their sales must be on the upswing.

Titanium is a marvelous material but is prohibitively expensive to manufacture and Ti bikes will always be the realm of those people with very deep pockets.  

It goes without saying that without proper preparation of the materials and skilled workmanship the end product will be prone to premature failure.

The custom builders who use lugs do so because they know a lugged frame, even if it's plain, is superior to a lugless steel frame. With custom cut lugs the final product becomes something of a work of art and something I see as much more attractive than open welds... some of which are quite good but again, are often the stuff of custom builders too.

You can make a good riding bike out of any of the materials we've discussed and although I flirt with aluminum bikes and will never buy a Ti bike, I will alway maintain a love affair with steel bikes...with lugs.


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## highrevs (Oct 10, 2005)




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## Ridin'Dirty (Jun 4, 2004)

einstein said:


> I don't know about you but nothing on a bike is more sexy than the roll of nickles that are perfectly spaced. Pure art. Here's a bike a found on ebay that has some of the nicest i've ever seen. https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=220079046802&rd=1&rd=1


:skep: Troll?


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

For you frame builders... Is fatigue an issue with frames? I assume it would be, but I'd guess some steel and Ti frames might be beyond the endurance limit, where aluminum has no limit, and thus will break eventually.


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## WillitsBrand.com (Jan 15, 2006)

Willits welds are never finished. Those are the welds of a master who has built thousands and thousands of top-quality bikes.

-steven












mechmann_mtb said:


> the Willits stem looks finished. if it is, it can't be compared to unfinished welds. that is like comparing a cobbed and finished fillet braze to something like the Ti artists at Moots, Eriksen, Strong, etc produce. not the same thing.


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## tibug (Dec 5, 2006)

These welds totally school all your guys pics!








JK, I know they're just average. Oh well, I can feel good a little at the fact that I paid 70$ for it and the welds are as good as they are, except for the fact that the headtube gusset is a little off center...


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## einstein (Jan 13, 2004)

What's with all that tape tho???


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## tibug (Dec 5, 2006)

The tape is to fix a crack in the frame...











JK, it is a temporary cable rub shield.


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## benja55 (Aug 10, 2005)

*Wes's work is top shelf...*



WillitsBrand.com said:


> Those are the welds of a master who has built thousands and thousands of top-quality bikes.


I'll second that emotion. After all, he taught me! :thumbsup:

I'll get around to posting some of mine soon...


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

cocheese said:


> My Eriksen and Pereira 29ers.


26" conti verts on a 29" bike?


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

Paulmtb4 said:


>


Why didnt you bother to clean or prep your material before welding it ?
Also there are 3 very nice Tungstun inclusions that I can see from that pic . 
Beads look decent though , did you use a pulser to help keep them even or as this straight pedal ?


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## Chewieez (Oct 10, 2004)

I'm suprised no one has posted any Ventana's on this thread YET. I think their welds are some of the best in the industry!

I hope some others come on here soon and post up some more Ventana welds! (Fo?!?)

I don't have any personal pics but I found these two in a quick search.

Larry's (Ventanarama) new El Ciclon:










Bayareamtbiker's blue X-5:


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## Jeroen (Jan 12, 2004)

Darren Crisp's signature;

Double pass weld on my Ti singlespeed's front traingle:










www.crisptitanium.com


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## holden (Jul 27, 2004)

random questions: 

i like fillet brazed welds but isn't that simply building up enough material to smooth out later? 

for the welds shown in this thread, which unfinished "look" is harder to attain? the larger niccolai/american arcs or the finer arcs like potts/willits? given equal consistency ...

also, why do some unfinshed welds appear to bulge-like and others smoothed to the tube?


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## noshortcuts (Nov 29, 2005)

tibug said:


> The tape is to fix a crack in the frame...
> 
> JK, it is a temporary cable rub shield.


And here I thought you were hiding the brand name, HUFFY..........

Just kidding, but it was the first word that came to mind when I saw (what looks to be) the letter "F" to the left of the tape.


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

holden said:


> random questions:
> 
> i like fillet brazed welds but isn't that simply building up enough material to smooth out later?
> Yes
> ...


I hope that helps.


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## holden (Jul 27, 2004)

edoz said:


> I hope that helps.


sweet.


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## portnoy (Jan 19, 2004)

*Strong Frames Ti Weld...*

I think this is pretty nice, and have a Strong Frame with a bunch of welds just like it! Very tight, even, and properly sized for the joint!


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## todd_freeride (Aug 9, 2005)

there are some amazing welds here. only problem, most of the frames cost tons of cash. like the nickolai.

so here, not a very expensive bike. but some really sweet welds! (05 Ibex Zone)


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## Call_me_Clyde (Oct 27, 2004)

*More Ibex welds*

From my '07 Atlas Expert. Like Todd said, not comparable to what you pay for in a custom, hand built frame, but certainly some nice beads.


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## dtrek4500 (May 7, 2004)

I am suprised that no one said anything about turner. Here is a pic of the weilds on my burner. Also here is one of the gusset on my redine monocog.


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## konut (Mar 25, 2006)

sorry but you jus cant beat rocky mountain :thumbsup: .

and its not even my bike.


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## xy9ine (Feb 2, 2005)

interestingly enough, this isn't actually a weld bead, but a hydroformed tube made to look like the bulge was welded on (it's actually a single tube):


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## bigpedaler (Jan 29, 2007)

yep -- there's a lot of beauty welds out there, and i appreciate 'em as well. but i won't ever dismiss lugs, either. both have their uses and their place in the bike world. it's a bit of a fantasy of mine to own a sweet lugged steel road bike (won't ride alu on the road, sorry).

BTW, cannondale doesn't agree w/ you -- they grind their weld joints down.


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## shredder111 (Jul 8, 2005)

Most of these welds look fantastic! Hopefully I will be good enough to shred like this one day=) 

Shredder111=)


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## ryancycle (Mar 5, 2004)

*clean, curtlo welding*


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

With all the pictures of robotic aluminum welds in this thread , I thought contribute some hand welded steel to show people humans can still weld as nice as a robot 

These are our standard "production " welds at Nemesis Project and these were grabbed from our latest production run of bikes :thumbsup:

Steel is Real !


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## shredder111 (Jul 8, 2005)

Hey dudes, sweet welds! I was just wondering, what makes steel so gosh darned hard to weld I keep wondering about this and always forget to ask.


Shredder111=)


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## benja55 (Aug 10, 2005)

*Steel isn't that hard to weld...*



shredder111 said:


> Hey dudes, sweet welds! I was just wondering, what makes steel so gosh darned hard to weld I keep wondering about this and always forget to ask.


Once you're familiar with it. Maybe the question should be, hard to weld compared to what? If you've spent time with each, you'll find they each have their own idiosyncracies and peculiarities.

Having spent the least amount of time on Al, I've always found it to be the hardest. Or maybe just most annoying as I hate the sound of the AC arc. Steel and Ti were much easier IMHO, with Ti being an absolute pleasure.


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## GreenLightGo (Oct 24, 2006)

here is some love for K2


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## geoffss (Mar 23, 2004)

"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder""

That being said, some of these welds look butt-ugly to me. 
Tight bead, uniform width and spacing make a "pretty" weld to me.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

If you're going to bring up Al Welds, you have to include Klein. Even after the Trek buyout and after leaving Washington, they still know what they are doing.


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## mtbhermit (Mar 8, 2007)

Well I don't know about beautiful, but I find the welds on my '06 Trance 3 (Aussie model) seem to be of a decent quality and of a nice finish. My photo quality on the other hand well...

Top tube to seat tube brace









Head Tube









Seat tube to shock basket









Disc tab


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)




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## rewarder (Nov 23, 2006)

I like the welds KAVIK posted. What frame is that? Is that your handiwork?


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

rewarder said:


> I like the welds KAVIK posted. What frame is that? Is that your handiwork?


One of many I built when I was in the game...


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## rewarder (Nov 23, 2006)

Are you going to get back in the game? I see your from Phoenix. Do you remember Conejo mountain bikes? My real good friend owned that company. (I don't know why anyone would care to know that info). Maybe I should just go to bed..........


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

rewarder said:


> Are you going to get back in the game? I see your from Phoenix. Do you remember Conejo mountain bikes? My real good friend owned that company. (I don't know why anyone would care to know that info). Maybe I should just go to bed..........


I met Glen Evans when he was building Conejo's. I can't remember who ended up whith the Co. Was it the Ragland's? I think I recall building some monocoque prototypes later for Ron (I can remember his last name) that he was taking to interbike.

My bike career is a long story. Search for "kavik" on MTBR and you will get a taste for why I left it behind...


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## rewarder (Nov 23, 2006)

Yeah, Chad Ragland is my good friend (He's running a off-road race team right now in San Diego) Called T-Force motorsports. Trophy Trucks for racing the Baja 500 and 1000. Then our other friend Lon Brammer took it over before it was sold to some airplane guy. I'll search for the Kaviks. Good Times.


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## rewarder (Nov 23, 2006)

I know this is off topic but I'll ask anyway. Does 7000 series aluminum require heat treatment? Or could it age naturally at room temp for a week or so. Also, does it need to stay in the jig while this happens?


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

rewarder said:


> I know this is off topic but I'll ask anyway. Does 7000 series aluminum require heat treatment? Or could it age naturally at room temp for a week or so. Also, does it need to stay in the jig while this happens?


Aluminum tubing suppliers have a recipe for artificially aging 7000 series. We found that the "soak" temperatures were very close to our powdercoating process. So we killed 2 birds w/ one stone.

To answer your original question, yes it will harden over time. The thicker it is and the larger the heat effected area will require longer aging times. Also, it does not need to be fixtured during this process, assuming it does not have built in stress. 6000 series is annealed before aging and will sometimes warp from welding tension or improper quenching technique. 7000 needs only heat and/or time.

To give you an idea of time...We tried to align(cold set) all of our frames the same day they were welded. Anything over a week old was significantly harder to make "yield". On a different note. Post machining the frame before aging was difficult, as the HT and BB were quite soft. After aging or a week or 2 at room temperature, and they would ream/thread quite nicely.

Note - Disclaimer -Always follow the tubing mfg recommended aging process. Nothing is worse than destroying a brand new frame because it is too soft to machine/ride/punish/etc.


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## PaMtnBkr (Feb 28, 2005)

*Conejo Bikes!*



rewarder said:


> Are you going to get back in the game? I see your from Phoenix. Do you remember Conejo mountain bikes? My real good friend owned that company. (I don't know why anyone would care to know that info). Maybe I should just go to bed..........


Whatever did happen to Conejo? A friend of mine has one and has had it FOREVER, 
thing just keeps going and going! Too bad they are not around anymore. Got to love small 
companies making tight product.


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## wreckedrex (May 2, 2007)

This guy is good: LINK Scroll down a bit for the pics. No bike stuff, but the guy can weld.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

*OK, I'll play*

Here are a few beads from a while back.

Hey Brian! Good to have you around. Those aluminum welds look fantastic; love filleted weld beads. Talked to you a long time ago at Interbike and appreciated your insights. Hope you're making huge bank off the Felt license.


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

D.F.L. said:


> Here are a few beads from a while back.
> 
> Hey Brian! Good to have you around. Those aluminum welds look fantastic; love filleted weld beads. Talked to you a long time ago at Interbike and appreciated your insights. Hope you're making huge bank off the Felt license.


Where'd you get that pic!? Gotta love 853. Love to weld it, hate to machine it.

There's a invisible link in my signature to some more pics.

Equilink revenues have been slow. Felt must not have gotten my memo?:lol:


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## Furrner (Jun 10, 2004)

Titus Locomoto.


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## rewarder (Nov 23, 2006)

PaMtnBkr said:


> Whatever did happen to Conejo? A friend of mine has one and has had it FOREVER,
> thing just keeps going and going! Too bad they are not around anymore. Got to love small
> companies making tight product.


Don't know!! After Chad and Lon got rid of Conejo it went to Califonia. A machinist owned it I think. Now it has just disappeared. I'll post a pic of my Conejo soon. It was a great company.

KAVIK - I found your hidden link. NICE NICE NICE. The dropouts are trick. Good job. Have any old Kaviks laying around?


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## bbbr (Nov 6, 2005)

Not bike related by any means but pretty to me as a laser welder in the aerospace industry.


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

Welding is NOT the same as brazing or soldering. Absolutely not.

_"Welding is a fabrication process that joins materials, usually metals or thermoplastics, by causing coalescence. This is often done by *melting the workpieces *and adding a filler material to form a pool of molten material (the weld puddle) that cools to become a strong joint, with pressure sometimes used in conjunction with heat, or by itself, to produce the weld. This is in contrast with soldering and brazing, which involve melting a lower-melting-point material between the workpieces to form a bond between them, *without melting the workpieces*."_​
Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welding

Call the american welding society and ask them if you don't beleive me.

BM


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## kuksul08 (Oct 8, 2006)

Does anyone know if Santa Cruz bikes are hand welded or robot welded?


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

You know, I was under the assumption that all aluminum frames were hand welded. Does anyone KNOW for a fact of any aluminum frames were robot tig welded?

BM


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

I think it was mentioned before, the Merida factory has robotic welding.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

I've yet to see a bike that was completely robot welded (well, except maybe for Mig-welded Wal-Bikes). Look at a Specialized Stumpjumper and you'll see that the clamshell parts are robot welded where they join, but the rest looks hand-done. The beads on the robot stuff are PERFECT, but I imagine it's still too difficult or expensive to set up a machine to do the hard-to-reach areas on most bikes.

As soon as the A.I. folk develop personality for robots, customers can pick their favorite eccentric, unreliable custom framebuilder robot to build a frame for them. I suppose wait time could even be programmed in for added realism... ;-P


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

In my mind, the quantaties would have to be enormous to be able to offset the costs of robotic cells that could do a complete bike frame. The one advantage robots have that any man could never do, is have 1, 2 or 3 axis controls on the jig, so the part can rotate in any direction, and since the robot has more reach and far greater felxibility, complex curves can be welded in a single continous weld. A man would have to weld a short distance, reposition, weld, reposition, etc. I'm still skeptcial and I guess I would just have to see it for myself.

BM


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

bmadau said:


> In my mind, the quantaties would have to be enormous to be able to offset the costs of robotic cells that could do a complete bike frame. The one advantage robots have that any man could never do, is have 1, 2 or 3 axis controls on the jig, so the part can rotate in any direction, and since the robot has more reach and far greater felxibility, complex curves can be welded in a single continous weld. A man would have to weld a short distance, reposition, weld, reposition, etc. I'm still skeptcial and I guess I would just have to see it for myself.
> 
> BM


You need to have 3-axis control on the head and 4-axis control of the frame (or vice versa). 
Automated/robotic welding is very common in the bike industry. Most robotics use GMAW (mig welding) and you can see this in the welds. GTAW is also used but is more complicated for robotics and much slower.

Here's a pic of a robotic/automated GMAW system from Bike Machinery:


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

bmadau said:


> The one advantage robots have that any man could never do, is have 1, 2 or 3 axis controls on the jig, so the part can rotate in any direction, and since the robot has more reach and far greater felxibility, complex curves can be welded in a single continous weld. /QUOTE]
> 
> Could a frame be welded all the way around like that if it were possible to reach so far? Doesn`t it tweak everything out of plumb to weld long beads without balancing the other side? Maybe it would work OK with aluminum.


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## rewarder (Nov 23, 2006)

Mr Kavik, did you have some influence on these dropouts?
Some of the trickest I've seen plus beautiful welds.


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

I'm not familiar the frame in your picture, but it has a similar profile to the dropout system on our frames. Who's is it?



rewarder said:


> Mr Kavik, did you have some influence on these dropouts?
> Some of the trickest I've seen plus beautiful welds.


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## rewarder (Nov 23, 2006)

Kavik said:


> I'm not familiar the frame in your picture, but it has a similar profile to the dropout system on our frames. Who's is it?


Woody Woodruff for Works Devolopment. He makes sick frame and forks. Hard to get though.:thumbsup:


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

rewarder said:


> Woody Woodruff for Works Devolopment. He makes sick frame and forks. Hard to get though.:thumbsup:


We worked out of the same shop. So, they are officially endorsed by Kavik Bicycles.:thumbsup:


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Here's my submission. 98 Merlin XLM, 'nuff said.


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## brontotx (Apr 5, 2006)

*Black Sheep*

James at Black Sheep lays down some nice welds...


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2007)

while we are on the titanium kick... here's my Seven Verve.


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