# Which shifters XT (M750) or XTR (M952)?



## petchia (Oct 18, 2004)

Ok, so I recently built up my bike from scratch and went with all new XTR (M960) stuff and used the M960 VBrake shifter/lever combo. I hate it!!!! The damn thing ghost shifts and plain and simple I want my rapidfire back. So anyway....on to what I really want to know...

I am going to get an older style set of 9spd rapidfire shifter lever combo for the bike. My question is whether to get the XT (M750) version or the XTR (M952) version. The XTs run $100 and the XTR $160. Their weights seem to be about the same (410 grams).

Help me decide on which to get.

1.) Do they shift the same?
2.) Can you remove the shift indicators from both (and they still look and function ok) and save about the same amount of weight?
3.) Do they both work with the new M960 XTR drivetrain?
4.) What are most people out their using? I saw about 1/2 and 1/2 on light-bikes.com profiles.

-Bill


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## aussie_yeti (Apr 27, 2004)

petchia said:


> 1.) Do they shift the same?
> 2.) Can you remove the shift indicators from both (and they still look and function ok) and save about the same amount of weight?
> 3.) Do they both work with the new M960 XTR drivetrain?
> 4.) What are most people out their using? I saw about 1/2 and 1/2 on light-bikes.com profiles.


Do they shift the same - YES, the quality of shift is the same.
Removable shift indicators - YES, you can also buy the xtr ones without indicators in the first place but are very rare. They just have a nice plastic cover.
Compatible with M960 - YES but the rear derailleur may be rapid rise so the direction in which each lever shifts will be reversed
What are most people using - SRAM, get some rocket triggers or twisters.

The only difference between xtr and xt is the way the are designed. XT use two bearings and a ratchet inside and the ratchet system eventually fails, snaps. XTR use 4 bearings and so instead of snapping a little plastic ratchet you have to crush a ball bearing in order for the shifter to fail. This is also why they are 4 grams heavier. You pay for durability, after a few years of decent use you will start to notice better shift quality with xtr. When they're both new there is no difference.

In my opinion if you really want to stay with shimano get the xtr's, they're not made anymore and where a really nice bit of kit that you won't be disappointed with. You'll have them for a long time.

Brake lever wise old xtr are much nicer, in function and in looks.

One things for certain, you're doing the right thing ditching the dual control.

Cya, John.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*agree...*

i'd also ditch dualcontrol and get some old-style rapidrise shifters.

BUT as stated above you will get reverse shifting when paired to the M-960 XTR derailleur. so best would be to replace that derailleur too and get an older M-952 XTR instead.

but i would go for a set of XT shifters and pair them to some lightweight brakelevers. that way you not only get back your preferred style of shifting but save also some weight at about the same cost a set of XTRs .
XT shifter pods are ca. 3g lighter than XTR, shift equally as good but cost 1/2 the price. get some light brakelevers like Pauls or FRM which both weigh about 120g. so together you get a combo which weighs 340g and don't spend more than with lets say a XTR STI combo.

pictured below an older setup of my bike with XT shifters (221g with removed gear display) and FRM DP-3 levers (108g with Al-bolts): 329g combo.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

*I have some XT pods I would part with*

haven't been on a bike in over a year
PM me if you are interested


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## petchia (Oct 18, 2004)

*pod covers??*

Hey Nino,

What did you cover your shifter pods with after removing the shift indicators? It looks like some kind of carbon fiber insert.

For Everyone: What is underneath the shift indicator? An open hole? What do you cover it with?

-Bill



nino said:


> i'd also ditch dualcontrol and get some old-style rapidrise shifters.
> 
> BUT as stated above you will get reverse shifting when paired to the M-960 XTR derailleur. so best would be to replace that derailleur too and get an older M-952 XTR instead.
> 
> ...


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## MD Bullit (Feb 14, 2004)

It's a ratcheting wheel with a hole in it, which matches with a pin on the indicator which makes it indicate. I covered the hole on my XT shifters with a small strip of electrical tape. Adheres very well, conforms to the shape of the shifter, and looks fine as long as both strips are oriented in the same direction. I have a set of XT shifters for sale, no indicators and have electrical tape pre-applied. Want them? PM me. $36.50 shipped


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*fake carbon sticker...*



petchia said:


> Hey Nino,
> 
> What did you cover your shifter pods with after removing the shift indicators? It looks like some kind of carbon fiber insert.
> 
> ...


yes, there's a hole underneath leaving the shift-mechanism open. i cover it with some fake carbon sticker.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

*some numbers*

There is some weight advantage getting integrated brake lever and shifters. My XTR 952 integrated brake/shifters weigh 197g each. I also have XT shifter pods and they weigh 124g each. To equal the XTR weight if using XT pods the levers would have to weigh 73g each - which is very light by lever standards and expensive (i.e Avid Ultimates, FRM, etc.). Also I think the XTR shifts just a tiny bit better when new but maintains performance much better and has been more durable than the XT pods.

On the flip side the brake levers in XTR integrated set are not quite as good as higher end Avid stuff and there is very little adjustment. The lever actually works great for me though - I have large hands. Also, if you ever want hydraulic brakes down the road you will have to get new shifters.

My suggestion is XTR shifter pods and some lightweight brake levers. Hopefully that won't cost much different than what you sell the 960 stuff for.



petchia said:


> Ok, so I recently built up my bike from scratch and went with all new XTR (M960) stuff and used the M960 VBrake shifter/lever combo. I hate it!!!! The damn thing ghost shifts and plain and simple I want my rapidfire back. So anyway....on to what I really want to know...
> 
> I am going to get an older style set of 9spd rapidfire shifter lever combo for the bike. My question is whether to get the XT (M750) version or the XTR (M952) version. The XTs run $100 and the XTR $160. Their weights seem to be about the same (410 grams).
> 
> ...


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## Bike Nazi (Apr 3, 2004)

*Motivated is right about*



Motivated said:


> There is some weight advantage getting integrated brake lever and shifters. My XTR 952 integrated brake/shifters weigh 197g each. I also have XT shifter pods and they weigh 124g each. To equal the XTR weight if using XT pods the levers would have to weigh 73g each - which is very light by lever standards and expensive (i.e Avid Ultimates, FRM, etc.). Also I think the XTR shifts just a tiny bit better when new but maintains performance much better and has been more durable than the XT pods.
> 
> On the flip side the brake levers in XTR integrated set are not quite as good as higher end Avid stuff and there is very little adjustment. The lever actually works great for me though - I have large hands. Also, if you ever want hydraulic brakes down the road you will have to get new shifters.
> 
> My suggestion is XTR shifter pods and some lightweight brake levers. Hopefully that won't cost much different than what you sell the 960 stuff for.


The XT triggers working almost as well as XTRs in the begining but with time and crashes XTs require a lot more effort to shift than the XTRs,
I went from 9 speed XTR trigger shifter pods (less than 2 years old)
to 4 year old XTR 8 speed trigger/brake levers and have to say both shift real smooth.
Never used the SRAM stuff but have heard only good things about their new high line triggers and rear derailluers, which is a good thing being the braniacs at Shimano seem to be handing the trigger shifting market over to them on a silver platter.

Anyone else loath rapid rise rear derailluers?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*don't agree...*



Bike Nazi said:


> The XT triggers working almost as well as XTRs in the begining but with time and crashes XTs require a lot more effort to shift than the XTRs,
> I went from 9 speed XTR trigger shifter pods (less than 2 years old)
> to 4 year old XTR 8 speed trigger/brake levers and have to say both shift real smooth.
> Never used the SRAM stuff but have heard only good things about their new high line triggers and rear derailluers, which is a good thing being the braniacs at Shimano seem to be handing the trigger shifting market over to them on a silver platter.
> ...


my XTs are as smooth as on day 1 after 2 hard years.it's the CABLES that need replacement, not the shifters if they start to run rough. i don't see why you should spend twice as much for XTR.
i had XTRs and sold them!


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## Bike Nazi (Apr 3, 2004)

*Any impact damage to the XT's?*



nino said:


> my XTs are as smooth as on day 1 after 2 hard years.it's the CABLES that need replacement, not the shifters if they start to run rough. i don't see why you should spend twice as much for XTR.
> i had XTRs and sold them!


Both my XT's and XTRs have suffered mild to moderate impacts, hard to judge which ones took the bigger hits but after re-cable & housings of the XT's they where still hard to shift but I can appreciate the fact that most XT stuff is as good or almost as good as XTR for half the price.

Nino, looking at your bike, I did not think price was an object in your set up?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*why pay more if it's the same..*



Bike Nazi said:


> Both my XT's and XTRs have suffered mild to moderate impacts, hard to judge which ones took the bigger hits but after re-cable & housings of the XT's they where still hard to shift but I can appreciate the fact that most XT stuff is as good or almost as good as XTR for half the price.
> 
> Nino, looking at your bike, I did not think price was an object in your set up?


hey, i do have to pay for my parts so why pay more if it's the same?
i don't have a Schmolke handlebar or fancy Extralite hubs.for me it's not worth all the money for a couple of grams.
and i never had any impact on the shifters. they are perfectly hidden where they are...


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

*XTR is more $$, but not double the price*



nino said:


> my XTs are as smooth as on day 1 after 2 hard years.it's the CABLES that need replacement, not the shifters if they start to run rough. i don't see why you should spend twice as much for XTR.
> i had XTRs and sold them!


From JensonUSA:
XTR 952 shifters: $149
XTR 950 shifter/levers: $190

From Supergo:
XT 751 shifters: $113

So XTR shifters are 32% more than XT (or $36). I imagine better prices could be found for both those components, but the difference will likely stay about the same. And really, at $190 for shifters/levers the XTR set looks like a great deal. Speaking purely of money vs. weight that is actually the best choice.

I'm currently servicing a set of XT shifters to be ready for installation on my race bike and there is no way the internals are as nice as in XTR.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*not bad, but...*



Motivated said:


> From JensonUSA:
> XTR 952 shifters: $149
> XTR 950 shifter/levers: $190
> 
> ...


i just bought a spare set of new XT shifters on sale from the swiss distributor for 65$. not bad, right?


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

*yeah, and it's a good thing . . .*



nino said:


> i just bought a spare set of new XT shifters on sale from the swiss distributor for 65$. not bad, right?


It's good you get those for such a deal because they wear out twice as fast as XTR. Sorry, you soooo walked into that I couldn't resist! (Shimanolock will get your money one way or another).

BTW, what is your price for XTR shifters?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*more...*



Motivated said:


> It's good you get those for such a deal because they wear out twice as fast as XTR. Sorry, you soooo walked into that I couldn't resist! (Shimanolock will get your money one way or another).
> 
> BTW, what is your price for XTR shifters?


more than the prices above


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2005)

*aside*

from the weight why dont you guys like dual control? i thought it was weird
for a couple of weeks, but once you get used to it, it is just so much easier
to use. i would prefer a non rapid rise rear der. though.


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## Hecubus (Jan 12, 2004)

petchia said:


> Ok, so I recently built up my bike from scratch and went with all new XTR (M960) stuff and used the M960 VBrake shifter/lever combo. I hate it!!!! The damn thing ghost shifts and plain and simple I want my rapidfire back.
> -Bill


Why don't you actually try ADJUSTING THEM RIGHT. Why would the 960 shifters ghost shift and changing to pods solve the problem? They use the very same mechanism as the shift pods actuated a different way. If your drivetrain is skipping changing to shifter pods of any kind will not fix anything.


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## petchia (Oct 18, 2004)

*Not exactly ghost shifting...*

Well they weren't exactly ghost shifting in the sense that you are inferring. Basically whenever I went down hill and I squeezed the left brake, I would shift the front derailleur down. This was my fault, but it would never happen with rapidfire plain and simple. I also don't like the feel the brakes have with the ability of the levers to move up and down. With normal brakes, the levers don't have vertical play, just horizontal. I guess it's like the difference between pedals with lots of float (i.e Speedplay Frogs) and those that are fixed (SPD).



Hecubus said:


> Why don't you actually try ADJUSTING THEM RIGHT. Why would the 960 shifters ghost shift and changing to pods solve the problem? They use the very same mechanism as the shift pods actuated a different way. If your drivetrain is skipping changing to shifter pods of any kind will not fix anything.


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## milroy (Jan 15, 2004)

petchia said:


> Well they weren't exactly ghost shifting in the sense that you are inferring. Basically whenever I went down hill and I squeezed the left brake, I would shift the front derailleur down. This was my fault, but it would never happen with rapidfire plain and simple. I also don't like the feel the brakes have with the ability of the levers to move up and down. With normal brakes, the levers don't have vertical play, just horizontal. I guess it's like the difference between pedals with lots of float (i.e Speedplay Frogs) and those that are fixed (SPD).


Just give them a chance for a bit. I didn't take to them at first but after a while i got used to them and now way prefer them over triggers.

You may also want to play with the angle the lever is set at. If you are shifting down acidentally when braking, maybe try rotating the lever down a little.


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## Hecubus (Jan 12, 2004)

Rotate the levers down a little bit more than you would normally run them and set them 20 to 30mm inwards from the end of the grip. I find the most common problem people have with these shifters is they place them with the mentality of the older shifter pod systems which had a much shorter lever.


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