# Ringle Hubs Self Destruct!



## outside! (Mar 15, 2006)

Back in the day (~1991-2) I built up my first custom bike, and as was the fashion at the time, I tried to use as little Shimano as possible. I still haven't forgiven them for discontinuing thumb shifters, and at that time I was truly angry. The new bike would do double duty as my NORBA racer and my commuting bike, so I got two sets of wheels, one with knobbies, and one with Conti Grand Canyons. For the front wheels, I chose the then new and ultra-cool Ringle hubs and had them laced up to Campy Contax rims by Clark Rasmussen at Mission Bay Wheel Company.

Sometime last year, I noticed my front wheel had a loose spoke. Upon inspection, it turned out that the spoke flange had broken and let two spokes pull free from the hub. Kind of a bummer, but that bike is now my VRC MTB, so mainly gets used for beer runs. I installed the other wheel and kept riding it once in a while. Last week I was tuning up the bike so I could ride it up Mt. Palomar to watch the TOC and noticed the other hub doing the same. The last two pics show the latest hub to fail. The first pic shows that the first hub to fail has continued to self destruct while hanging in the rafters. (How do you control the order that the pictures are posted?)These are the first run of Ringle hubs, before the Bubba and Super Bubba. If you have these hubs, you may want to carefully inspect them prior to riding on them. Metal fatique and the early CNC parts sometimes don't get along very well.


----------



## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Bummer. I have a rear Hugi hub that did the same thing. Best I can tell, mine happened while the bike was sitting in my house.


----------



## kpomtb (Feb 2, 2006)

I had an old Hugi that did that too. It had been in service for quite some time when I noticed the cracks. It never did let go completely, but I stopped riding it once I noticed.


----------



## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

Yup those hubs didn't last long but they sure were pretty and expensive!


----------



## -Anomie- (Jan 16, 2005)

To be honest, you're lucky they lasted as long as they did. Ringle hubs are notorious for failing at the flange, at least in my experience. Great for a season or two, but long term you're better off with Suntour or Shimano.


----------



## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

The ratchet ring on the Super 8s tended to crack too. I've been lucky so far, knock on wood. I have several wheel sets built up with Ringle hubs and so far none has self destructed.


----------



## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

Yeow! Scary. Veloculture shared with us a Yeti that had Ringle wheels with the same problem. I have two sets of Ringle wheels................Guess I better go check 'em.


----------



## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

Add me to the list. 

Just pulled this out of the cobwebs. other Ringle products I broke: Water bottle holder, seatpost clamp. 

Still going strong: Seatpost binder, original skewer (rods fully threaded), Chain suck thing, matching back wheel to pictured front wheel, has a freewheel hub.


----------



## sithlord3 (Aug 12, 2007)

*.*

this exploded this past summer on me....after its first and only season of use...haha....
blurry but you get picture....


----------



## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

KDXdog said:


> Add me to the list.
> 
> Just pulled this out of the cobwebs. other Ringle products I broke: Water bottle holder, seatpost clamp.
> 
> Still going strong: Seatpost binder, original skewer (rods fully threaded), Chain suck thing, matching back wheel to pictured front wheel, has a freewheel hub.


Haven't broken a cage yet, but I have scraped the sh!t out of my arm on one.

The posts always seemed to develope a small crack the would start at the hole where the clevis passed through the post and spread up to the top of the post. My 3DV post has that. The crack is only on the outer tube, not the inner reinforcement. The other problem with the posts was that if the saddle clamp ever slipped it would mess up the grooves in the post and the clamp would always tend to slip thereafter.

The upper clamp part of the anti chainsuck thing tended to break too if you got a little crazy tightening things down.

Anybody had a flange let go while riding or have you all been lucky and they blew up will in you garage or whatever?


----------



## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

When riding. Medium speed Single track, heard a "twang", click click clkil, stopped immediately and saw the damage. Actually rode back to my car on it. Slowly.

Could have been worse! 

I forgot, I also have a Ringle seatpost on my Bonty, but I believe it's second generation, under "Sun". So far, so good.


----------



## sithlord3 (Aug 12, 2007)

mine also went while moving at a medium speed....I just rode it back...wheel actualy stayed pretty true .......


----------



## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Wow, I guess it's a darn good thing it didn't totally unzip, huh?


----------



## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

At least it wasn't during a race. Back then I may have cared!


----------



## hairstream (Apr 20, 2008)

A few really good threads with pictures of the Ringle prototype stuff in Reader's kit on Retrobike. 

If you haven't seen them already it is worth the trip.


----------



## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

Link?


----------



## dirtdrop (Dec 29, 2003)

uphiller said:


> Link?


Let me Google that for you!


----------



## hairstream (Apr 20, 2008)

uno-speedo said:


> Let me Google that for you!


http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52987

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52990

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=53041

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52988


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Its because they always used 7075T6 for the hubs shell/flange. The alloy is so strong it tends to build up stress fractures and cracks instead of simply flexing a bit in usage from the spoke loads. Lots of other hub manufacturers found that out the same way using that particular alloy. Nukeproof had LOTS of their original design hubs failing that way so the mid-90s redesign changed to 6061T6 for the flanges.


----------



## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

I searched on their site. It gave no results. Point taken.


----------



## p.doering (Aug 1, 2008)

chefmiguel said:


> those hubs didn't last long


20 years?


----------



## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

p.doering said:


> 20 years?


Haha, yeah I was thinking the same thing. They did break much more quickly than that, though I don't recall personally seeing many broken flanges, just seat clamps, Anti Chainsuck Thing clamps and ratchet rings.


----------



## outside! (Mar 15, 2006)

p.doering said:


> 20 years?


I purchased those wheels in either 1991 or 92. I rode them for commuting, some racing and then one of them while touring Switzerland and Italy in 96. I got a new bike in 1998, so the bike with these wheels became my beer run and trailer towing bike. What has amazed me is the way the hubs have continued to self destruct while hanging in the rafters of my shop. I will keep them around until I figure out how to salvage the Campagnolo Contax rims. Thanks for the replies everyone.


----------



## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Just by the amount of oxidation in that fracture I would say the flange had been cracked for quite some time and finally just let go. It looks like there is a tiny bit of bright metal where the last little section final broke free.


----------



## disease (Nov 27, 2007)

DeeEight said:


> Its because they always used 7075T6 for the hubs shell/flange. The alloy is so strong it tends to build up stress fractures and cracks instead of simply flexing a bit in usage from the spoke loads. Lots of other hub manufacturers found that out the same way using that particular alloy. Nukeproof had LOTS of their original design hubs failing that way so the mid-90s redesign changed to 6061T6 for the flanges.


I have often wondered if hubs are just machined from raw bar stock, or if they are machined into a basic hub shape and then forged to improve strength on the flanges before final shaping and drilling.


----------



## bucktruck (Jan 8, 2006)

disease said:


> I have often wondered if hubs are just machined from raw bar stock, or if they are machined into a basic hub shape and then forged to improve strength on the flanges before final shaping and drilling.


I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you :nono:

Seriously, if one were to use a combination of machining and forging, the forging would be the first step. Cranks are a good example of this manufacturing method. I can't imagine machining a hub first, forging, and then machining again to final specs. The cost would be astronomical.

The 7075 theory might have some merit, though I'm a manufacturing engineer, not a materials or mechanical engineer. In my experience, well designed 6061 hubs machined from bar stock have a very low failure rate.


----------



## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

I don't recall exact timeline, but mine lasted maybe 3 years. No way near 20. 

Makes a nice home for the spiders in my basement though. Paid so much for the wheelset, I just had to keep them.


----------



## disease (Nov 27, 2007)

bucktruck said:


> I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you :nono:
> 
> Seriously, if one were to use a combination of machining and forging, the forging would be the first step. Cranks are a good example of this manufacturing method. I can't imagine machining a hub first, forging, and then machining again to final specs. The cost would be astronomical.
> 
> The 7075 theory might have some merit, though I'm a manufacturing engineer, not a materials or mechanical engineer. In my experience, well designed 6061 hubs machined from bar stock have a very low failure rate.


You would have to machine the bar stock down first to at least a basic hub shape before forging, and final machining. That is obviously how RaceFace does it on cranks like the Atlas and the old Turbine. It would not be expensive to crudely hog out material from bar stock to get a basic hub shape prior to forging.

Looking at hubs, I can't help but suspect that many of them are forged. The flanges are too smooth and irregular to be machined. Correct me if I am wrong please, because I really would like to know.


----------



## bucktruck (Jan 8, 2006)

disease said:


> You would have to machine the bar stock down first to at least a basic hub shape before forging, and final machining. That is obviously how RaceFace does it on cranks like the Atlas and the old Turbine. It would not be expensive to crudely hog out material from bar stock to get a basic hub shape prior to forging.
> 
> Looking at hubs, I can't help but suspect that many of them are forged. The flanges are too smooth and irregular to be machined. Correct me if I am wrong please, because I really would like to know.


disease, you may have some good points, and I can't say exactly how all hubs are made. It'd be nice if someone from Race Face or another hub manufacturer would chime in.

I just Googled some images of the Race Face cranks you mentioned, and I'm still willing to bet that they were forged first and machined second, with no machining before the original forging. While you are correct that rough machining to a basic shape before forging might not be that expensive, the cost of transferring the part between the different manufacturing operations would get prohibitive. A general rule is that the more steps in the manufacturing process, the more expensive it gets. Even moving the part from the lathe to the mill costs money, and bicycle parts just don't have the ROI that say, a jet engine impeller might have.

Getting back to hubs, I've never seen one that I couldn't reproduce on modern CNC equipment. Smooth and irregular flanges can be done quite easily, especially with 4 and 5 axis machines.

FWIW, your questions suggest you might have some experience in this area, so I am doing my best trying to further the discussion. (Us engineers aren't known for their social graces, if you haven't heard  )

Take care,
bucktruck


----------



## disease (Nov 27, 2007)

KDXdog said:


> I don't recall exact timeline, but mine lasted maybe 3 years. No way near 20.
> 
> Makes a nice home for the spiders in my basement though. Paid so much for the wheelset, I just had to keep them.


Make salt and pepper shakers out of them!


----------



## datawhacker (Dec 23, 2004)

Dave (Dave's Wheel Designs) built some Ringle wheels for me. The front had radial spokes, and the flange failed while riding. Kudos to Dave for rebuilding it for free with a replacement that he obtained from Ringle. I don't recall if he backed off from radial spokes on the replacement, but it has lasted for well over 10 years.


----------



## rhett101 (Apr 17, 2004)

*My contribution...*

They were radially laced which was just asking for it! Note: Each pic is a side...

Last set I will own.


----------



## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

While it is obvious these hubs have some strength issues, it was stated in the note that came with the hub that you must not use radial lacing. I think most of the Ano era hubs specify so much. Actually I think Shimano states so much about some (all?) of their hubs.


----------



## Maida7 (Apr 29, 2005)

A long time ago when I spent summers as a mechanic, I had a customers Ringle hub snap like that as I was truing the wheel. It was a real Oh @#$%! moment for me. 

I have a front Ringle front hub that has several seasons of riding on it and still works fine. So it's hit and miss.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

I have a first generation rear hub that is freewheel that blew up in storage sometime in the last two years. It lasted from '92 or so, so I am not too disappointed. The front is a slightly newer SuperBubba that is still going strong.....albeit now in single-speed cruiser mode.

I replaced the rear hub with a NukeProof job......I suppose I should still be worried.


----------



## haaki (Sep 15, 2008)

*for an MTB radial lacing is just dumb*

you wind up with a wheel that is more prone to failure
is stiffer in a vertical plane and flexier in side and diagonal planes

so the wheel absorbs less bump and will flex in hard cornering, it is also easier to knock it out of true.

on a road bike in hard cornering I can actually feel a radial wheel dishing and pushing me wide


----------



## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

outside! said:


> Back in the day (~1991-2) I built up my first custom bike, and as was the fashion at the time, I tried to use as little Shimano as possible. I still haven't forgiven them for discontinuing thumb shifters, and at that time I was truly angry.


:???:

Shimano made 8 speed thumbies well into 1994 IIRC, my 1993 Kilauea had them stock.


----------



## outside! (Mar 15, 2006)

mechagouki said:


> :???:
> 
> Shimano made 8 speed thumbies well into 1994 IIRC, my 1993 Kilauea had them stock.


It is well known that the Deore XT 7speed thumbshifters had an extra click that allowed them to work with 8 speed clusters. My RM Element TO has been running that setup since 1997. I didn't know that there were manufacturers spec'd that set up. Good for Kona if they did. If you have any Deore XT 8 speed thumbshifters, they would be worth a lot of money. I personally would give more than a PowerBar wrapper for them (old VRC joke).


----------



## ae111black (Dec 27, 2008)

rhett101 said:


> They were radially laced which was just asking for it! Note: Each pic is a side...
> 
> Last set I will own.


Interesting way you had these laced they look backwards.... never seen them done like that (spokes pulled from the inside!)


----------



## rhett101 (Apr 17, 2004)

This is a good article on radial laced wheels...

http://www.geocities.com/spokeanwheel/lacingrl.htm

But like I said before it was my own damn fault the hub failed...


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Another crack in the bucket.

The front SuperBubba is still just fine....(erm, I haven't over-heard any microcracking?)
And the seat collar and binder and anti-chain suck thing of a similar vintage are all fine.

This hub was (I think) the first gen freewheel version what I had been using with DA cogs. 
The Mavic 231's have held up wonderfully tho


----------



## bigkraut (Mar 20, 2009)

Those of you that had flanges break, how many holes? Are they all 32 hole?

Just curious as I have been running a 28 hole Bubba(not supper) since late 93. It has been on a rigid fork, been on my Manitous, used for xcountry, some downhill, dabled in trials, playe MTB polo with it and it is still in once piece. 

Just wondering if 28 hole is less likely to break or did I just get lucky?


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Luck? 28 might be a marginally greater amount of hole-less flange....
My broken rear hub is a slightly earlier product that my front hub which is, incidentally, still going strong after lots of use rigid and suspended for 15+ years.


----------



## sithlord3 (Aug 12, 2007)

mine was 32h.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Another crack in the bucket.
> 
> The front SuperBubba is still just fine....(erm, I haven't over-heard any microcracking?)
> *And the seat collar and binder *and anti-chain suck thing of a similar vintage are all fine.


Scratch that, the seat collar cracked too.


----------



## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks for the update Nate!

It's funny, I just yesterday posted a link to this thread over on RBUK in reply to someone's question about the durability of Ringle parts, the very next day the thread hauls itself out of the grave!


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Coincidence? ...I think not


----------



## banks (Feb 2, 2004)

Specy Sworks late 1990s front hubs will let go of their spoke flanges, while riding and even brand new on a hook in the shop!


----------

