# folding frames suggestion - Montague VS Surly



## dmas (Feb 23, 2016)

Hello from Switzerland, I'm looking for my first long travel bike, the main requirement is a folding / demountable ability, so I restricted my choice on these two frames, both with 29er and gravel-style in mind: 

1) Montague FIT
2) Surly Travelers Check

1)
- the folding system is my first choice, but the biggest frame size is only 21" (53cm) and I think it might be too small for my 6" (183cm) height, I'm waiting for more size informations from Montague.
- Is the cheapest solution
- Widely less strong than Surly 
- Aluminium 7005 with carbon fork
- max tyres 32.

2) Surly is specifically designed for long and heavy bikepacking, the 4031 steel frame is very interesting.
- I have the right choice of frames,
- More expensive 
- It seems impossible to find a store with this frame in Europe, is very frustrating.

- Second hand will be fine, but both models and even the old Surly Long Haul Deluxe model are unaivailable in the hand market.

Any suggestions are welcome and sorry for my English!


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## BikesFloat (Jul 27, 2015)

I once owned a Montague Paratrooper (also with a 7005 series aluminum frame), so I can comment on it. I am your same height and the 21" Paratrooper fit me just fine. I wouldn't have wanted a larger frame, in fact, but fit is a very personal matter, of course. The folding system on the Paratrooper is very robust, but the frame and stock front suspension fork would have to be considered "entry level" (not so great), but I see you are considering a model with a carbon fork. Even with the suspension fork, I found the ride extremely rigid on singletrack. It was OK on more groomed surfaces and I really enjoyed the ride on gravel with the proper tires. I replaced the handlebars with longer riser bars mainly for fit, but also because the stock handlebars are only 580 mm long. I think the riser bars were 640 mm and I still would have liked them longer to help stabilize the ride. The component set is also entry level, but was not a problem for me - possibly because I didn't own the bike for very long.

I sold the Paratrooper after only a year and would be hesitant to recommend it to anyone who wants to ride long and hard. Some of the more experienced riders may be able to suggest upgrades to the Montague model that you are considering which might be a compromise if you are unable to find a Surly locally.

One other consideration ... I attempted to contact Montague for information on two different occasions and never received a reply. Make sure you have a knowledgeable shop/dealer who can help you if you do buy a Montague.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

dmas said:


> 2) Surly is specifically designed for long and heavy bikepacking, the 4031 steel frame is very interesting.
> - I have the right choice of frames,
> - More expensive
> - It seems impossible to find a store with this frame in Europe, is very frustrating.


The Surly TC is not a purpose built heavy duty touring frame. It's a travel friendly cyclocross frame. If you want to load it up with a lightweight set of gear and you aren't a super heavy rider yourself you will be fine. If you want to load it up like a pack mule and/or you are a heavy rider you'll find the limits of the frame.

I have both a Surly LHT and a Surly Straggler [the disc brake version of the Cross Check]. The Straggler is noticeably lighter duty.

Note that you can have S&S couplers installed on almost any steel touring frame. So if you found a non-S&S frame you like you can just have it converted.

Bilenky Cycle Works

^^^ these folks can get any frame that's available in the US. Modify it and ship it to you in Switzerland.


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

vikb said:


> Note that you can have S&S couplers installed on almost any steel touring frame. So if you found a non-S&S frame you like you can just have it converted.
> 
> Bilenky Cycle Works
> 
> ^^^ these folks can get any frame that's available in the US. Modify it and ship it to you in Switzerland.


+1. I got my World Troller because it came with couplers. It also has a good reputation as an all-terrain touring bike, and I have no regrets about getting it.

But, in course of deciding on and making that purchase, I found that the cost of buying a frame with couplers versus the cost of adding couplers after the fact was not hugely different. The biggest deterrent, cost-wise, would be getting the frame repainted. For me, the Troll fit my needs, and came with couplers, so it was an easy choice. But if the Troll had not been the perfect bike for me, then it would not have made sense to buy it just because of the couplers. It would have been worth a little more to get the bike I wanted and have the couplers added.

Also, it seems like maybe the Montague and S & S Coupler bikes serve different purposes.

Does the Montague fold up small enough to fly as regular, checked baggage? it seems that's an advantage of coupler bikes: they are cheaper to fly with.

On the other hand, the Montague looks like it folds rather quickly and easily. So if the goal is a quick fold/unfold and go, the Montague has the advantage. I have split my bike to get it into smaller spaces, but it's not a quick process. It's not too difficult, but not as fast as a folding bike. But getting the bike packed for shipping involves a lot of disassembling, so that's worth considering, too.


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## rifraf (Dec 22, 2012)

Wouldn't a 26er like the Surly World Troller be more suitcase friendly, as well as being up to more "rigorous" use than the Travellerscheck.
More choice of racks, fenders etc with the plethora of threaded "warts" for said duty as well as special threaded dropout holes for trailer mounts. The ability to accomodate a you name it drivetrain from single speed to derailleur to internal gear hub.
I'll finish by pointing out its ability to accept tire widths up to 2.75 from memory.
A staggeringly versatile machine that looks to fit in a large suitcase that alas my Ogre wouldn't due to its larger rims. If it was a multi surface international travel tourer I was considering, the World Troller would be in my consideration box for sure.

Closely followed would be the Thorn Nomad. Only second place as my preference is disk brakes due to usually touring with a trailer. 

Vikb has beaten me to point out Bilenky who custom fit S&S couplers as an option but they are not the only ones.
I think in the Surly section of the forum, in the main ECR thread there is pics of such a customised frame.


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## dmas (Feb 23, 2016)

thank you for the Bilenky suggestion, is very interesting! 

If the Montague FIT frame will be too small for me, I'll probably customized a steel frame and then send for the S&S Bilenky retrofit. 
I also definitley prefer 29er than 26": just folding but not too extreme.

The Folding/demountable requirement is much more related to bus, train and car easy transports, than a small fly suite. Rapidity is also not as important as a trusty strenght of both systems (I just read about some possible loosening about the surly s&s, but I don't know how much these words could be trustworthy).


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

dmas said:


> Rapidity is also not as important as a trusty strenght of both systems (I just read about some possible loosening about the surly s&s, but I don't know how much these words could be trustworthy).


Surly's S & S couplers are no different than any other S & S couplers. The couplers are from S & S, same as any other bike with S&S couplers. Only the frames are from Surly. I found that if I didn't tighten them enough at first, they came loose over time. Once their were properly tightened, they stayed tight.


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## dh024 (Dec 11, 2010)

I have a Montague Crosstown folder that uses the same frame design as the FIT. As much as I love that bike for urban commuting, I have had little success at fitting racks and bags on it and the frame geometry is such that you won't be able to fit a frame bag in the front triangle (doesn't really have one). Also, if it has the same proprietary, adjustable stem/steerer tube setup to raise or lower the height of the bars, you might find that it is not sturdy enough to mount a handlebar bag. That potentially limits how much gear you can carry on the bike in a significant way. Also, on my frame, I would be hard pressed to fit a tire wider than about 700 x 35c in the rear (may not be an issue with the disc brake version). Finally, the overall build quality on the Montague bikes is quite a bit lower than the price suggests (I guess you pay a premium for the folding ability), so I might be worried about the strength, resilience, and reliability of the frame, wheels (especially), and drive train components on a long, off-road, loaded tour. Perhaps I wouldn't have this concern if it were a paved route, but I do think it should be a consideration for off-road/dirt road touring.

If I were deciding between the two, I would choose the Surly hands down -- well worth the extra money, IMO.


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## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Framebuilder List For S and S Machine Bicycle Torque Couplings (BTCs)
I see they have frame builders in Switzerland and Germany.
You can contact them about getting S&S couplers instaled on a steel or titanium frame, before you buy the bike.

S&S coupled bikes take time to fold. 15, 30, 120 minutes. A new case is $500 usd. I paid $250 usd for a used one. It took a couple of years to find a used one. For air travel this is the way to go. The case is 61.9 liner inches, within the allowed size, buy 1 mm.

The Montague folds in 15, 30, 120 seconds. Better for bus or train. bad for flying.


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## jcaino (May 26, 2007)

If you were considering the Traveler's Check, there's also the Salsa Vaya Travel.


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## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Do not forget about Ritchey break away system. Last summer I got a frame for $499 usd. In 2009 it was $1,100, in 2011 $900, 2013 $700,
2015 $499 usd. It is a mountain bike with 26 inch wheels. After 2,000 (?) miles, no problems to report. It fits in the S&S case.

The makers of S$S couplers have stiff guide lines on who can install them. They will not sell the couplers to just any old shop. Do not send your frame across the ocean, choose the shop closest to your house. 

My bike with S&S couplers is 6 years old. It has been through every type of weather there is. Snow covered mountains to deserts. The couplers will most likely out last the bike. They are expensive, I paid $600 usd plus another $100 to powder coat, (required), the bike after instilation.

For ferry boats and busses I sewed a soft sided bag. This is much faster than the hard case for the air port. Unscrew the couplers, and undo 2 cable breaks, and remove both wheels. Under 15 minutes to break down or put together. For the hard case it takes time.

You must check the couplers for tightness each morning before you ride. They can come loose. If they do you will notice and tighten them. Or follow the instructions and check them each morning before you ride. This is not a problem with the couplers. It is a problem with being to lazy to check as you were supposed to. Mine came loose 1 time, About 100 miles after a ferry crossing. I noticed a vibration and tightened the couplers. End of problem. I may have failed to tighten them properly after the ferry ride.

S&S couplers are the best, most reliable option if you plan to ride many thousands of miles, and want to keep the bike for 10 years.

Why Surly? The Germans make some nice bikes.


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## dmas (Feb 23, 2016)

thanks! I also saw a couple of UK custom frame builder such as Bob Jackson Cycles and Mercian Cycles, both are offering the S&S couplers on their custom frame. Especially the first has a very interesting price on the frameset (World Tour model is interesting), but as you said the s&s mod is very expensive, almost the same price of the frame!


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