# Why no love for riser bars?



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Riser bars are uncool. Riser bars are like kryptonite to a mountain biker! What I do not understand is why.

I have a hard-tail and a full-sus with very similar reach and geometry. The hard-tail is a LOT more comfortable though and after taking the measuring tape to them the main difference is the 60mm riser bar on the hard-tail. 

I've ridden the same trails on both bikes many times. Steep climbs, berms, drop-offs etc and I don't think the extra 40mm rise on the hard-tail bars holds it back at all. 

So here's the thing. With higher bars you can sit more upright yet still sit lower when you want to, due to the clever feature designed into your arms that lets them bend in the middle! With lower bars you have less possible positions, you cannot sit as upright, it's not possible.

So why aren't riser bars more popular? Personally I think it's purely a fashion thing. If you look back at MTB history you can see all sorts of bar/stem combinations which we now think of as very compromised but which were must-have standards at the time. Will we look at low bars that way in a few years? And if not, why not?


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## mlevinson (Mar 17, 2010)

I don't know if they are or are not popular. I use them and I see lots of others using them. I hurt my back a few years ago and am so much more comfortable with the riser. If you like it better, to hell with what anyone else says!


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## peterk123 (Oct 10, 2005)

I use a flat bar because I ride a medium frame, even though I am six feet tall. I like the smaller frame under me to help me deal with the technical crap I like to ride through. I also make matters worse by using a short stem. So, I use a negative rise stem, and wide flat bars to "stretch me out" (I'm still fairly upright). When I need the bars higher for downhill or jumps/drops, I drop the seatpost. It just works well for me. Pete


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## padrefan1982 (Mar 2, 2005)

Ummm... I feel like I'm missing something in translation here. It seems like any bike not in the pure "XC" world's got risers. If feel like they are super popular here in the USA. I like them a lot personally, as they tend to have more adjustment to me than flat bars. 

What does seem unpopular or uncool is the riser bar + bar ends. It doesn't look right to me, but I've run that very combo in the past. But as bars get wider and gain sweep, the bar ends became more of tree/bush catchers... No fun.

With all that said, flat bar, riser bar, drop bar... They're all just ways to get you into the right position.


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## OLx6 (Feb 5, 2011)

My bike is a pure XC race 29er hard tail. I replaced the stock flat bars with 20 mm riser bars and happy with this choice. Mr. Pig, oddly enough my arms bend in the middle as well, maybe we are related some how!:eekster:

I like XC hardtails, but my handle bars need to be wide and have a little rise for me to feel confident on corners and descents.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Must be a Scottish thing, riser bars are pretty cool in my neighborhood.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Lo-rise 15mm bars have 9* sweep and 5* upsweep. That gives different adjustment than flat bars with just 9* sweep. I see almost all rise bars.


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## 779334 (Oct 10, 2014)

Harley Davidson riders have a 500mm riser bars. They're too cool. I wish I was that cool...


I ride with a 3/4" riser. The bars came stock with my bike. I'm planning to buy a carbon bar, also with 3/4" rise. I don't think popular vs non-popular is an issue in riser bars at the moment, at least here in the U.S.


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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

AshevilleMtBiker said:


> Harley Davidson riders have a 500mm riser bars. They're too cool. I wish I was that cool...
> 
> I ride with a 3/4" riser. The bars came stock with my bike. I'm planning to buy a carbon bar, also with 3/4" rise. I don't think popular vs non-popular is an issue in riser bars at the moment, at least here in the U.S.


 I have 46 mm enve riser bars as I like to ride more upright...FYI I have 16 inch riser bars on my Harley Davidson and it has nothing to do with looking cool . Bikes are bikes and each individual searches for a different feel..


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## FullBladdy (Aug 26, 2011)

I run riser bars on my Epic FS 29er and like them. I will admit I have been eyeing a flatbar setup with 30% performance and 70% vanity as it just seems to fit the look of the bike better. I know it is silly and few things get me this way so I did chuckle when I saw this thread. Maybe it has something to do with the shorter stems that people seem to love. With my bike I have the stem reversed so with the riser bar it is in close range to what it would feel with the stem flipped the other way with a flat bar. 

I remember when flat bars were a thing of the past and risers were the standard unless you were a hadrcore racer. In the end it is the feel and fit that should be the main motivator. That being said my brother has an epic with the same risers along with bar ends and I call him out on it pretty much every ride lol.


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## Barman1 (Jan 8, 2014)

If there were no riser bars, extended stems, setback posts, etc, I would need to have frames custom built to fit.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Riser bars good...too high HT for intended weight balance bad


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## 779334 (Oct 10, 2014)

blacksheep5150 said:


> I have 16 inch riser bars on my Harley Davidson and it has nothing to do with looking cool.


Enjoy riding it. That was sarcasm. I have no problem with them, though I think some are very uncomfortable.


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## cadoretteboat (Aug 27, 2011)

Easy way to length your cockpit.


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

...


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

Riser bars shorten the cockpit. 
I preferred the feel and handling of a flat bar and lower stem, but my back insisted that a 20mm riser with an extra 10mm of stem height was far superior. My back always wins when we disagree. It's very temperamental...


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

J.B. Weld said:


> Must be a Scottish thing, riser bars are pretty cool in my neighborhood.


I was about to say that. Well not really but it's spot on in my neighborhood as well.


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## cadoretteboat (Aug 27, 2011)

OwenM said:


> Riser bars shorten the cockpit.


I had the impression that it's lengthen it. I have 35mm riser handlebar with no spacer vs 25mm of spacers with minimum rise bar. They should be at around the same height but because of the HA effect , the handlebar with the spacers should be closer to me ?
edit: plus you can rotate it.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

I have 38mm rise bars on both of my bikes, do what works for you


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

cadoretteboat said:


> I have 35mm riser handlebar with no spacer vs 25mm of spacers with minimum rise bar. They should be at around the same height


Exactly!


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2016)

AshevilleMtBiker said:


> Enjoy riding it. That was sarcasm. I have no problem with them, though I think some are very uncomfortable.


nothing but fashion for those into farm equip, function has long passed.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

My 29r HT has a flatbar and my 26r FS has a riser. :yawn:


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm 6 ft with a 35+ inch inseam. Even on a large frame my seat is up there. To get the grips to the level of the saddle, risers and 25-30 degree stems are a necessity for me.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

The rise on a bar pretty much serves the only purpose of increasing the distance between your teeth and the headset top cup :eekster: And of course bar height influences your asset: you might not be able to use a riser if you adopt an aggressive cross-country racing posture and the other way around it is nice to have a riser instead of tons of headset spacers when adopting a more upright posture.

Around here all bikes with 4-6" travel have risers. I make of course a sample size of 1, but I have been on a riser since mid nineties ... the time of my gloriously inefficient GT STS.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

mlevinson said:


> I hurt my back a few years ago and am so much more comfortable with the riser. If you like it better, to hell with what anyone else says!


This is my take on it but I think I need to clarify what I mean.

By riser bar I don't really mean a 20mm rise or slight up-sweep. Bars like that are the norm these days, my bike came with 20mm 'riser' bar, but that's just the equivalent of an extra stem spacer.

I'm talking about bars with 50, 60mm rise or more. My hard-tail has 60mm risers on it and it looks odd because you just don't see bars like that on mountain bikes. Jump bikes, BMX bikes yeah, but not mountain bikes.

I reckon that people get an idea of what a 'modern' bike looks like in their heads and manufacturers try to make bikes that fit that picture. Like when oversized bars came in. Suddenly the bikes with 25.4 bars looked very last week, despite these bars working perfectly well for years.

So most bikes roll out of the shop with similar 'low-rise' bars of between 20 and 30mm. These bars conform to what buyers think looks 'right'. I don't think I've ever ridden a bike with the stock stem/bars but I think that most people do. And if they do change the bars they'll typically not deviate from the 'correct' look too much.

So I'm kinda answering my own question but what I really want to know is do these low-rise bars (20mm) have any advantage over higher bars? Having ridden both over many years I honestly can't find one.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

I got sasquatch length arms. No need.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2016)

Whats a riser bar??


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## Krause (Jun 21, 2006)

Did something recently change? It seems like just yesterday (though probably 15 years ago) when riser bars became the new fad and all bike manufacturers jumped on it and ditched flat bars seemingly overnight.

[edit]
Never mind, seems you're talking about bars with way more of a rise then I was thinking.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> This is my take on it but I think I need to clarify what I mean.
> 
> By riser bar I don't really mean a 20mm rise or slight up-sweep. Bars like that are the norm these days, my bike came with 20mm 'riser' bar, but that's just the equivalent of an extra stem spacer.
> 
> I'm talking about bars with 50, 60mm rise or more. My hard-tail has 60mm risers on it and it looks odd because you just don't see bars like that on mountain bikes. Jump bikes, BMX bikes yeah, but not mountain bikes.


Thanks for the clarification, because my first thought was that you've lost your mind because riser bars are everywhere, and still spec'd on most new bikes except some 29ers (I just checked websites for Fuel EX, Camber, Trance, Stumpy, Bronson, Hightower, and all have risers except the hightower).

I remember riding in Sedona in the 90's and the guys at Absolute bikes were rocking BMX bars on their bikes when the mountain bikes of the day were still rigid with flat bars. They were way ahead of the game.



> So most bikes roll out of the shop with similar 'low-rise' bars of between 20 and 30mm. These bars conform to what buyers think looks 'right'. I don't think I've ever ridden a bike with the stock stem/bars but I think that most people do. And if they do change the bars they'll typically not deviate from the 'correct' look too much.
> 
> So I'm kinda answering my own question but what I really want to know is do these low-rise bars (20mm) have any advantage over higher bars? Having ridden both over many years I honestly can't find one.


I think what "looks right" is what most people consider the best athletic position on a bike, which is bar somewhere around even with the saddle.

New bikes = longer travel + bigger wheels = higher front ends, so bar rise has decreased on average in recent years get to optimal position. Niner even has negative rise bars for small framed 29ers.

You can ride at whatever bar height you want, but I've found that going much above saddle height unweights the front too much, emphasizing comfort but detrimental to handling.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Pig already knows the answer. It's fashion. Mass production frame builders design frames with head tubes that suit the bar rise fashion of the moment.

For the custom frame builder it's about getting the right front end stiffness and appropriate range of adjustment with common parts. Fashion matters too.

For scottzg he's got some 60mm bars on his hardtail cuz he can slam his stem, invert it as necessary, and have tons of space for his dick in a mishap, all while getting his hands in the right spot. He's rather tall and highly unfashionable.


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## Jorgemonkey (Mar 10, 2004)

RS VR6 said:


> My 29r HT has a flatbar and my 26r FS has a riser. :yawn:


Same here. Except my 29er is a FS along with my 26er


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

smilinsteve said:


> I've found that going much above saddle height unweights the front too much, emphasizing comfort but detrimental to handling.


I see the logic in that but my point is that in practice that's not how it works.

Irrespective of the hight of the bars, you can bend your arms to put your weight forward if you want. I've climbed the same steep gavel tracks on my bikes with 20 and 60mm rise bars and the only difference is bending your arm slightly more! You don't even notice you're doing it. You're not locked in an upright position because you have higher bars.

The flip-side is that you cannot make your arms any longer than they are. Lower bars force you to stay bent/low all of the time which can be very tiresome on long cross country rides.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Haha...there is no way I can run a 60mm riser bar. I'm not a tall guy and if used a 60mm rise bar...that would put the bar way above my saddle. I'm using a flat bar with a slammed Flatforce stem on my 29r. My bar is barely below (possibly level) my saddle. A 60mm would put the bar Harley high. It would be high no matter how much I bend my elbows.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> I see the logic in that but my point is that in practice that's not how it works.
> 
> Irrespective of the hight of the bars, you can bend your arms to put your weight forward if you want. I've climbed the same steep gavel tracks on my bikes with 20 and 60mm rise bars and the only difference is bending your arm slightly more! You don't even notice you're doing it. You're not locked in an upright position because you have higher bars.
> 
> The flip-side is that you cannot make your arms any longer than they are. Lower bars force you to stay bent/low all of the time which can be very tiresome on long cross country rides.


Not sure about that^

Most people who put in a lot of miles and appreciate performance ride in the conventional bent over position for good reason. IME it's a way more athletic stance that enables optimal handling, also for most people it's far and away the most comfortable in the long run because you're distributing your weight more equally between your arms, feet, and ass.

I enjoy a leisurely ride through the park on a bike with "cruiser bars" but no way would I want to contort my arms and body to them to accommodate anything serious.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*Neutral position for climbing/dh...*

Proper suspension a2c/weight balance at the bottom headset bearing is FAR more important on a mtb ime...vs trying to artificially "weight" the front end by hand all the time through the bars


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> I see the logic in that but my point is that in practice that's not how it works.
> 
> Irrespective of the hight of the bars, you can bend your arms to put your weight forward if you want. I've climbed the same steep gavel tracks on my bikes with 20 and 60mm rise bars and the only difference is bending your arm slightly more! You don't even notice you're doing it. You're not locked in an upright position because you have higher bars.
> 
> The flip-side is that you cannot make your arms any longer than they are. Lower bars force you to stay bent/low all of the time which can be very tiresome on long cross country rides.


20 vs 60mm rise is less than 2 inches difference, so I can see how both might work for you. 
But in general if you have to bend your arms too much to get your weight forward, it effects how you can use your arms. A rocky downhill curve for example, you need weight on the front for traction, but your arms also have to resist the forces trying to turn your wheel from impacts, and you need to lift the wheel at times as well.

Holding the wheel straight and steady is best done with straighter arms, and tall bars require you to move weight even father back to lift the front.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> I see the logic in that but my point is that in practice that's not how it works.
> 
> Irrespective of the hight of the bars, you can bend your arms to put your weight forward if you want. I've climbed the same steep gavel tracks on my bikes with 20 and 60mm rise bars and the only difference is bending your arm slightly more! You don't even notice you're doing it. You're not locked in an upright position because you have higher bars.
> 
> The flip-side is that you cannot make your arms any longer than they are. Lower bars force you to stay bent/low all of the time which can be very tiresome on long cross country rides.


Running your hands super high isn't necessarily related to running riser bars. They're just one way to raise the grips.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Gasp4Air said:


> I'm 6 ft with a 35+ inch inseam. Even on a large frame my seat is up there. To get the grips to the level of the saddle, risers and 25-30 degree stems are a necessity for me.


^ My twin brother I never knew about.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

With a 150mm fork, 6mm rise stem and maybe 10mm rise on the bars, im already bending my arms a lot to keep weight on the front wheel going up.

Its not about fashion.... But it does look better.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I miss my Onza bar ends.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

My old mtb had ~45mm more stack height than my new one so I threw the 46mm risers ENVE's on there to get it the same.


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

I usually try to set my xc bikes up so I can be a little lazy and not have to think too much about shifting my weight forward in corners, while still being able to lift the front end without too much effort. On several of my recently owned bikes, this has resulted in a bar position lower than would be possible with riser bars unless used with a negative rise stem. 

On my full suspension bikes that I typically ride for fun and not speed, a higher bar position is preferred. I usually have more energy since I'm not riding at a race pace and can afford to be a lot more dynamic with lots of body movement when needed to set up for corners. The higher position also helps me get further back on technical downhills, and makes manuals and bunny hops much easier.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> ^ My twin brother I never knew about.


scary


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

nvphatty said:


> scary


Hey, I resemble that remark.


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## _rich_ (Jan 22, 2004)

Deity Cam Zink 38 special for me..
my back does not like flat bars...


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Obviously w/ super high stack heights due to longer travel front suspension - the general trend has been to take out the height via lower bar rise / no spacers / zero stack hs. 

Anyway - a practical reason to go with a 15mm to 25mm rise vs. a 40mm is you can adjust 'up' via spacers to gain height that you cannot lose if you 'guess wrong' and are stuck, spacer-less on a ZeroStack HS and the bar isn't going to get lower than 40mm or whatever.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2016)

Gasp4Air said:


> Hey, I resemble that remark.


....


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## love_that_flow (Nov 23, 2015)

I run 40mm rise on my 160 /130 trail bike. I do ride a lot of steepish to steep terrain and The additional height in the front end allows me to still keep the front end weighted and not have a feeling of being too far forward. I try to ride in a very aggressive position (chin above top cap) and always try to bend at the hips into the bike. This allows me to keep my arms bent. The advantage there is I can push the bike down into terrain or pull it up without my core moving much. 
On my last bike (granted it is still current model year) 160 / 165 with 20mm rise bars and a similar stack height (slightly lower) I felt I was loading up the front end too much in steep corners, thus leaning back on the bike and unweighting the front end.

On the contrary, on flat single track or flatish flowy terrain i wish the bars we lower sometimes. 

Horses for courses.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Why are we whining so much about something that's essentially a fit issue, and depends on your body dimensions and the specific bike you have?

Plus, there's more than one way to put the grips in a comfy spot. Boy, it's sure cheaper to get there with spacers under the stem than to play around with handlebars with a different rise.

I like a bar with lots of backsweep. Current one has 20deg, with 20mm rise. To put the height of the grips where I wanted them, I used spacers under the stem. My bike is incredibly comfortable. No fashion about it.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2016)

Harold said:


> Why are we whining so much about something that's essentially a fit issue, and depends on your body dimensions and the specific bike you have?
> 
> Plus, there's more than one way to put the grips in a comfy spot. Boy, it's sure cheaper to get there with spacers under the stem than to play around with handlebars with a different rise.
> 
> I like a bar with lots of backsweep. Current one has 20deg, with 20mm rise. To put the height of the grips where I wanted them, I used spacers under the stem. My bike is incredibly comfortable. No fashion about it.


so it's fashionably comfortable??


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

nvphatty said:


> so it's fashionably comfortable??


If you want to call it that, go ahead. Show me a 40-60mm riser with 20deg sweep, as an alternative, and I MIGHT jump on Mr. Pig's bandwagon. But I'd honestly rather have a little more steerer on my fork for the larger resale market.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

smilinsteve said:


> But in general if you have to bend your arms too much to get your weight forward, it effects how you can use your arms. A rocky downhill curve for example, you need weight on the front for traction, but your arms also have to resist the forces trying to turn your wheel from impacts, and you need to lift the wheel at times as well.


Ehh, have you never seen a down-hill bike?! ;0) If having high handlebars is a bad thing going down hill these guys are doing it so wrong.











Harold said:


> There's more than one way to put the grips in a comfy spot. Boy, it's sure cheaper to get there with spacers under the stem than to play around with handlebars with a different rise.


I'm talking about raising the bars above what headset spacers will typically allow. My bars are pretty much level with my saddle right now and spacers could only give me another centimetre or so. The new bars will give me close to two-inches! I'll post pictures, the bars should be here any day. I expect it to look rather silly...


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Mr Pig said:


> I'm talking about raising the bars above what headset spacers will typically allow. My bars are pretty much level with my saddle right now and spacers could only give me another centimetre or so. The new bars will give me close to two-inches! I'll post pictures, the bars should be here any day. I expect it to look rather silly...


Like I said in my first post. It's a fit thing. If you need that for proper fitment, then what's the problem? I don't need bars with that much rise to get close to even with my saddle. And I don't think most folks do. But I know a few people with crazy long legs and a mile of seatpost. They would benefit from getting their handlebars higher, but most of these guys that I know are used to road bikes with aggressive fitting and they only ride xc stuff on their mtb's, so they're happy with the fitment that they get. Different strokes.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

_rich_ said:


> Deity Cam Zink 38 special for me..
> my back does not like flat bars...











Love the way you've dressed those cables, very elegant work.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Mr Pig said:


> Ehh, have you never seen a down-hill bike?! ;0) If having high handlebars is a bad thing going down hill these guys are doing it so wrong.
> 
> View attachment 1058690
> 
> ...


So what is your point? Everybody should ride high rise bars...even if it puts you in a compromised position?

Like Harold said...it's a fit thing...if you need a higher bar to get your body in the correct position...then so be it.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2016)

Harold said:


> If you want to call it that, go ahead. Show me a 40-60mm riser with 20deg sweep, as an alternative, and I MIGHT jump on Mr. Pig's bandwagon. But I'd honestly rather have a little more steerer on my fork for the larger resale market.


there was much sarcasm within my last post.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

nvphatty said:


> there was much sarcasm within my last post.


appropriately detected, and so responded with the comment that I'd jump on Mr. Pig's bandwagon.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

RS VR6 said:


> So what is your point? Everybody should ride high rise bars...even if it puts you in a compromised position?


I think my point is, does it?

Most people buy bikes and ride them, without significantly altering the hight of the bars. Virtually none of the guys I ride with would think about it. The assumption seems to be that the bike is designed to be correct out of the box and however it fits you must be the right way to ride it.

So how many people have even tried riding with the bars higher? Probably not very many. My guess is that if they did, a high percentage of them might prefer it.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

What makes you think they didn't? If the bar was too low...it would be pretty obvious...right? Neck/shoulder/lower back issues...OTB feeling. Hence people coming onto MTBR and asking for higher rise stems or bars.

What I can tell you from running a bar too high is that it made steering sketchy, front wandered on climbs, and it also put more pressure on my ass bones when seated.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

My bike fits perfectly w/out a riser bar but it's a custom frame. Part of the spec to the builder was "no riser bar. make it fit right from the ground up." I also don't like riser bars as some don't mount a light well. I'm not into wide bars at all and some risers are cramped for a light or where the light does fit, a cable interferes.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> View attachment 1058690


That bar is not particularly high, the seat is just really low. Obviously there is a difference in optimal downhill geo vs. good all around performance.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

nvphatty said:


> scary


Why? Because our physiques, weight and height are the same? I can think of way more scarier things in life. A mirror for instance.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Why? Because our physiques, weight and height are the same? I can think of way more scarier things in life. A mirror for instance.


i can't speak to that but it's still scary.


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## _rich_ (Jan 22, 2004)

Mr Pig said:


> View attachment 1058694
> 
> 
> Love the way you've dressed those cables, very elegant work.


thanks 
the extra dropper cable really made it look like spaghetti...
I had to do something


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Harold said:


> I like a bar with lots of backsweep. Current one has 20deg, with 20mm rise.


I also like backsweep. I currently run the Answer 20/20 and Ragley Carnegies on my bikes, and have also tried Clarance, Mary, and Fleegle bars at various times.

Is the bar you're describing the Answer 20/20? If not, I'd like to know what it is.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Maybe the real question is why don't people ride with high bars (relative to saddle height). How you get there (bar stem spacers) doesn't matter. 

A flat bar for one guy could put the grips in the same relative position as a 60mm rise bar for another guy.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> I think my point is, does it?
> 
> Most people buy bikes and ride them, without significantly altering the hight of the bars. Virtually none of the guys I ride with would think about it. The assumption seems to be that the bike is designed to be correct out of the box and however it fits you must be the right way to ride it.
> 
> So how many people have even tried riding with the bars higher? Probably not very many. My guess is that if they did, a high percentage of them might prefer it.


I don't know anyone who doesn't adjust bar height. It's part of dialing in bike's handling.

I know one guy who has raised them, but it was done for handling. He's got some other interesting ideas about how a bike should handle. He's also faster on demo bikes, heh.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2016)

_rich_ said:


> thanks
> the extra dropper cable really made it look like spaghetti...
> I had to do something


what was used to bound them together??


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Gasp4Air said:


> I also like backsweep. I currently run the Answer 20/20 and Ragley Carnegies on my bikes, and have also tried Clarance, Mary, and Fleegle bars at various times.
> 
> Is the bar you're describing the Answer 20/20? If not, I'd like to know what it is.


It is the 20/20.


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## _rich_ (Jan 22, 2004)

nvphatty said:


> what was used to bound them together??


just some of this two sided velco wrap....
and took my time making sure each cable was the right length when building it...
http://www.amazon.com/VELCRO-1801-O...8&qid=1458754216&sr=8-34&keywords=velcro+tape


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Mr Pig said:


> I think my point is, does it?
> 
> Most people buy bikes and ride them, without significantly altering the hight of the bars. Virtually none of the guys I ride with would think about it. The assumption seems to be that the bike is designed to be correct out of the box and however it fits you must be the right way to ride it.
> 
> So how many people have even tried riding with the bars higher? Probably not very many. My guess is that if they did, a high percentage of them might prefer it.


The question is why would they prefer it? Comfort?

Bar height below the seat is better for power production....but, bars that low make you feel like you're too pitch sensitive.

Enter the dropper post, exit the need for high bars...as in numerous spacers plus riser bars. Lower bars put your head in a lower position, and since your body follows your head, the rest of your body ends up lower (because the saddle is no longer limiting body position), resulting in a lower center of gravity.

Ritchie Rude's EWS (championship winning) bike:


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## cup (Sep 22, 2007)

I'm just curious Here. I have a 40mm riser bar now and I love it. I'm currently considering enve bars. But the closest they have to 40mm will be the downhill riser bar at 46mm. Else it will be the normal riser bar at 26 mm. I don't have he lixury of trying this is I'm seeking opinions on this issue. Thank you


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## love_that_flow (Nov 23, 2015)

cup said:


> I'm just curious Here. I have a 40mm riser bar now and I love it. I'm currently considering enve bars. But the closest they have to 40mm will be the downhill riser bar at 46mm. Else it will be the normal riser bar at 26 mm. I don't have he lixury of trying this is I'm seeking opinions on this issue. Thank you


Go Renthals my friend.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

cup said:


> I'm just curious Here. I have a 40mm riser bar now and I love it. I'm currently considering enve bars. But the closest they have to 40mm will be the downhill riser bar at 46mm. Else it will be the normal riser bar at 26 mm. I don't have he lixury of trying this is I'm seeking opinions on this issue. Thank you


Just move a headset spacer up/down as necessary.


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## Rock Surf (Aug 28, 2010)

In ten years all the kids will be riding risers, and they'll say flat bars looks dumb.


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## love_that_flow (Nov 23, 2015)

Rock Surf said:


> In ten years all the kids will be riding risers, and they'll say flat bars looks dumb.


But wasn't that 15 years ago??

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

cup said:


> I'm just curious Here. I have a 40mm riser bar now and I love it. I'm currently considering enve bars. But the closest they have to 40mm will be the downhill riser bar at 46mm. Else it will be the normal riser bar at 26 mm. I don't have he lixury of trying this is I'm seeking opinions on this issue. Thank you


I have the enve 46 mm bars and love them , when I started riding where my body positioning changed I did exactly what scottzg said and took a spacer from under the bar and put it on top of stem .at 6-3.5 didn't like flat bars . I had the renthals also , they are great bars . Stem spacers allowed me tho get the feel I was after . My wife has had multiple back surgeries and flat bars put to much pressure on her lower back , put the renthals on there and a 7 degree rise stem and she can ride without back issues now .


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

richde said:


> Bar height below the seat is better for power production....but, bars that low make you feel like you're too pitch sensitive.
> 
> Enter the dropper post, exit the need for high bars...as in numerous spacers plus riser bars. Lower bars put your head in a lower position, and since your body follows your head, the rest of your body ends up lower (because the saddle is no longer limiting body position), resulting in a lower centre of gravity.


Droppers are not really relevant because when dropped, which puts the bars higher relative to the saddle, you are too low to pedal efficiently. I'm sure they are great for the riding they are designed for but don't effect bar hight.



Rock Surf said:


> In ten years all the kids will be riding risers, and they'll say flat bars looks dumb.


I found very few bars available with a 60+mm rise and the ones I bought were designated as jump bars.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

So I got my new bars on a few days ago and they got their first proper run out today. Twelve-mile hill route that included just about everything except jumps and drops. Steep, loose switchback climbs, fire-road, very loose fast gravel descents, rocky single-track with some very steep rocky descents.

To recap, this is what my original bars and stem looked like, pretty typical of what you get on most bikes today. I think the stem was about 70mm and the bars are a 20mm rise.









The stem got switched to a shorter one last year but here are the new bars, 65mm rise.









Yeah, I know, why red! Hardly a nice colour scheme but they didn't have them in black and they go with the new rims, which I only got in red because they were cheap!









Anyway, how are the new bars working out? Very good is the short answer. Sitting on fire-road for miles is much more comfortable. Yes, the front end wants to lift on very steep climbs but not really more than usual and it's just as easy to deal with. Going down, they don't seem to effect the balance of the bike much at all, not that I can tell. I could still get right behind the bike easily and move my weight to wherever I wanted it.

I couldn't detect any downsides to the higher bars at all. They are even 50g lighter than the ones I took off ;0) If you're totally comfortable on your bike then great, stay as you are. If, like me, you find longer rides hurt your back or you feel cramped over then I'd encourage you to give higher bars a try. Even just an extra 45mm makes a noticeable difference to your comfort.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

I recently learned that riser bars give you a little more adjustability. All of my bikes have low or mini rise bars (5-20%). 

These days, even more flat bars have a little bit of ride.

So, riser bars are not dead.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Mr Pig said:


> Droppers are not really relevant because when dropped, which puts the bars higher relative to the saddle, you are too low to pedal efficiently. I'm sure they are great for the riding they are designed for but don't effect bar hight.


I'm having difficulty in believing this is not sarcasm.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

richde said:


> I'm having difficulty in believing this is not sarcasm.


I think the Pig is actually being serious here. I understand what he is saying.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Hawg said:


> I think the Pig is actually being serious here. I understand what he is saying.


The great thing about a dropper post is that you raise it when you pedal, so the bars are lower than the saddle for better power production, and you can lower it for descending (or if you see something you'd like to lower it for), so that you can have a lower overall body position with lower bars for better overall stability.

The lower your cg is, the less you'll have that feeling of being pitched forward.

If you want to pedal again, you just.....raise the dropper post! It's like magic.

It allows your bike setup to be less of a compromise, like the compromise of having a more upright riding position so that you'll be more confident on steeper terrain.


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## cerebroside (Jun 25, 2011)

richde said:


> The great thing about a dropper post is that you raise it when you pedal, so the bars are lower than the saddle for better power production, and you can lower it for descending (or if you see something you'd like to lower it for), so that you can have a lower overall body position with lower bars for better overall stability.
> 
> The lower your cg is, the less you'll have that feeling of being pitched forward.
> 
> ...





Mr Pig said:


> Droppers are not really relevant *to seated pedaling* because when dropped, which puts the bars higher relative to the saddle, you are too low to pedal efficiently. I'm sure they are great for the riding they are designed for but don't effect bar hight...


Guessing this was more the intent.

Personally if I wasn't running risers (Edit: ~30 mm so not really fitting with the definition in this thread I guess) I'd either have a fat whack of stem spacers, or I'd look like I was riding drops. Note that head tube lengths only increase about 25 mm from size S to XL...


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## cup (Sep 22, 2007)

blacksheep5150 said:


> I have the enve 46 mm bars and love them , when I started riding where my body positioning changed I did exactly what scottzg said and took a spacer from under the bar and put it on top of stem .at 6-3.5 didn't like flat bars .


hi, do you have a picture of how it looks like now with the bar and stem combo? thank you


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

cerebroside said:


> Personally if I wasn't running risers (Edit: ~30 mm so not really fitting with the definition in this thread I guess) I'd either have a fat whack of stem spacers, or I'd look like I was riding drops. Note that head tube lengths only increase about 25 mm from size S to XL...


I had some shop employee cracking jokes and pressuring me to buy some envy bars for literally 15 minutes because he saw my 60mm risers on my car in the parking lot. Then i realized he was 8" shorter than me and he couldn't possibly understand. Yah dude, i have >3" of bar drop with these things and no stem spacers. I CAN'T lower them further.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

cerebroside said:


> Guessing this was more the intent.
> 
> Personally if I wasn't running risers (Edit: ~30 mm so not really fitting with the definition in this thread I guess) I'd either have a fat whack of stem spacers, or I'd look like I was riding drops. Note that head tube lengths only increase about 25 mm from size S to XL...


Assuming that you're somewhere near average size:

The reason for having higher bars (relative to seat height) doesn't really apply for seated pedaling, other than for comfort...and I'm not sure it even works for that either.

What do you mean by looking like you're riding drops? Because you're that tall, or because people have gone from one extreme to another as far as the bar/saddle height relationship?


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2016)

Hawg said:


> I understand what he is saying.


right


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

richde said:


> I'm having difficulty in believing this is not sarcasm.


It's not. Lifting the bars and lowering the seat relative to your optimum efficient pedalling position are not remotely the same thing.

Riser bars, and by riser I'm talking about around 60mm, let you raise the grips while maintaining your seat-pedal distance. Droppers change_ both_ at the same time, the effective rise in the bars is accompanied by shortening of your pedal stroke length, which is not desirable for the very riding risers bars are meant for.

I don't race, I just enjoy riding in the countryside. Comfort is more important than absolute speed, and I'm sure that is true for a lot of riders. Even having said that, riser bars do not effect speed very much at all. Sure, pedal to seat geometry is very important to power delivery but bar hight is far less so. An upright riding position is a disaster aerodynamic but we're not talking about road here. Few of us get up the sort of speeds where that matters on the dirt, although headwinds can be a drag, and apart from wind resistance a small rise in bar hight makes very little difference to pedalling efficiency at all.

Overall, it just makes riding your bike a more pleasurable experience. If you feel crunched up on the bike and stiff and sore when you step off you're less likely to want to ride it again the next day. And_ that_ is what it is all about. It doesn't matter what your bike set-up is, as long as you love riding the bike, and that has always been my focus. Every bike I've ever had has been changed to make it into a place I feel comfortable and want to be, and every bike has needed change.

And that's my point. With most bikes arriving with lo-rise, 20mm or so, bars I worry that many riders assume they should be sticking to what the fashion of the day is saying is correct. What I want is for people to think about how they are using the bike and be open to the idea of not following the herd. Changing the bike to make it as comfortable for them as possible so that they enjoy the bike more, which will hopefully mean they ride the bike more. Because more people out on their bikes is good :0)


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> Overall, it just makes riding your bike a more pleasurable experience.


You mean it makes _your_ riding experience more pleasurable. It can also be an improvement for some others but for many it isn't.

I think you might underestimate how many people alter their bike setups. Nearly every bike we sold underwent cockpit alterations and many of those changes involved raising the handlebars, sometimes a lot. We used a combination of upright stems, high rise bars, and different sweeps to accomplish that task. Keep in mind that raising the relative bar/saddle position can also requires a wider and differently shaped saddle.

I do believe body position affects power output and that leg muscles aren't as effective when in a very upright position, you just don't seem to use all your muscles effectively, especially your back. Anyway I agree that it's a trade off for some but for most people I've known having the bars even or lower than the saddle is actually more comfortable in the long run. It definitely is for me.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> You mean it makes _your_ riding experience more pleasurable. It can also be an improvement for some others but for many it isn't.


Yes, I agree. Of course if level bars is more comfortable for you then great but I don't think as many people consider riser bars as you think. I don't recall seeing any bikes with riser bars at the trail centres, I would have noticed them, and I must have seen hundreds of bikes. Perhaps they've tried them any found flatter bars to be preferable but I doubt it. Seems far more likely that they've never considered the option.

The next time I go to a busy trail centre I'm going to ask a few people.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> You mean it makes _your_ riding experience more pleasurable. It can also be an improvement for some others but for many it isn't.


if your able to object to mr pigs use of *your* how can you speak for *others* and state it isn't??


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## cerebroside (Jun 25, 2011)

richde said:


> Assuming that you're somewhere near average size:
> 
> The reason for having higher bars (relative to seat height) doesn't really apply for seated pedaling, other than for comfort...and I'm not sure it even works for that either.
> 
> What do you mean by looking like you're riding drops? Because you're that tall, or because people have gone from one extreme to another as far as the bar/saddle height relationship?


I'd say I'm reasonably close to average (6'2"). My saddle is about equal to my stem height when dropped (125 mm drop) on my trail bike, so I have a pretty reasonable saddle-bar drop from seated pedaling height, even with the rise on my bars (20 mm on that bike, 35 mm on my park bike).


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Mr Pig said:


> Yes, I agree. Of course if level bars is more comfortable for you then great but I don't think as many people consider riser bars as you think. I don't recall seeing any bikes with riser bars at the trail centres, I would have noticed them, and I must have seen hundreds of bikes. Perhaps they've tried them any found flatter bars to be preferable but I doubt it. Seems far more likely that they've never considered the option.
> 
> The next time I go to a busy trail centre I'm going to ask a few people.


Maybe they're all right and you're the one who's wrong.

The only benefit of your bmx bars is the assumption of increased comfort.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

richde said:


> The only benefit of your bmx bars is the assumption of increased comfort.


Assumption?


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

cerebroside said:


> I'd say I'm reasonably close to average (6'2"). My saddle is about equal to my stem height when dropped (125 mm drop) on my trail bike, so I have a pretty reasonable saddle-bar drop from seated pedaling height, even with the rise on my bars (20 mm on that bike, 35 mm on my park bike).


You're four inches taller than average, taller than ~95% of American adult males. Guess what, like almost everything else in life, bikes are generally designed around the average user. A 25mm difference in head tube length between the smallest and largest sizes isn't typical either. 25mm between M and XL seems a little more normal and far easier to deal with for riders of varying sizes within the typically sized people that bikes can be expected to fit well without going to extremes.

I'm 5'10" and ride a medium Pivot M6, with one 10mm spacer under the stem, low rise bars and still end up with bars that look lower, but are equal to or slightly above the saddle at the tips of the bars. Not that it's an easy measurement to make. At the stem, the bars are about an inch lower than the saddle...again, I don't have the kind of stand required to make super accurate measurements, but it's close.

Not that I go measuring everybody's bike, But unless your stem is slammed, I don't see how your bars could end up so low while using typical mid-rise bars unless you have unusually long legs...which is again, more of a personal problem not indicating any sort of a trend. But just looking at the numbers, it would seem the typical 40mm rise bars are made for people like you and should put you in an appropriate position.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Mr Pig said:


> Assumption?


Yes, assumption.

Regardless of where your bars are, the vast majority of your weight is going to be on the saddle, whether it's through the support of your core or not doesn't change that. You're just taking the load off of your core.

Think you're supporting any significant weight with your hands? Try lying down and holding up a 50lb barbell for an hour, or even a 30lb barbell.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

richde said:


> Yes, assumption.


Sorry but I am not imagining I'm more comfortable with higher bars. I know I am. I don't think it has anything to do with the weight on my hands, it is the angle of my back.

If the angle of your back is not right, either too low or too high, it's not a happy place to be. Years ago I had a hardtail that hurt my back so much that long rides were agony. After maybe fifteen or so miles my back was so tight it was a struggle to keep going.

If that's not you then I'm happy for you but I know when I am comfortable and when I'm not. And after messing about with stems, bars and seatposts for many years I know why.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Mr Pig said:


> Sorry but I am not imagining I'm more comfortable with higher bars. I know I am. I don't think it has anything to do with the weight on my hands, it is the angle of my back.
> 
> If the angle of your back is not right, either too low or too high, it's not a happy place to be. Years ago I had a hardtail that hurt my back so much that long rides were agony. After maybe fifteen or so miles my back was so tight it was a struggle to keep going.
> 
> If that's not you then I'm happy for you but I know when I am comfortable and when I'm not. And after messing about with stems, bars and seatposts for many years I know why.


So do more situps, it'll help with more than just cycling. The pain you feel from riding will slowly spread to the rest of your life and the high bars are just a bandaid.

You sound like a special case, as in not the norm here, that battles back pain with even a standard riding position...and not a position to suggest a trend.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

richde said:


> So do more situps, it'll help with more than just cycling. The pain you feel from riding will slowly spread to the rest of your life and the high bars are just a bandaid.


Now that's a good point and I agree with you. Right now I am overweight and I always carry any extra weight around my waist. I am certain that you are correct and the extra weight is contributing to the back issues. Hopefully as the miles increase over the summer I can get the weight off but I know from past experience it's not just the weight. Even when I was not overweight I've had to be careful to avoid back pain but you are right, poor core strength is pretty unhelpful generally.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> Yes, I agree. Of course if level bars is more comfortable for you then great but I don't think as many people consider riser bars as you think.


After selling and setting up hundreds of bikes over the years I _know_ that a significant percentage of riders not only consider riser bars but have the change made at the time of the sale. High bar mods were very common place at our shop but I can't speak for your side of the world.

I think the reason you don't see many unusually high bar setups at the trailhead is because IME the majority of the folks who prefer very upright riding postures are more casual riders, while the more performance oriented ones seem to naturally gravitate towards more traditional setups over time because that's usually what works best. In the end comfort, control, and personal preference is paramount.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

nvphatty said:


> if your able to object to mr pigs use of *your* how can you speak for *others* and state it isn't??


Because I wasn't speaking for everyone else, just stating a simple fact that it works for some but for many it doesn't.

I'm not trying to come off like a know-it-all nitpicker and apologize if I did, I was just countering Pig's notion that most people don't consider higher bars because IME an awful lot of people do.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think the reason you don't see many unusually high bar setups at the trailhead is because IME the majority of the folks who prefer very upright riding postures are more casual riders.


I know what you're saying but even with the 65mm riser bars it's not a 'very' upright position. It's only 40mm higher than the bars I was using.

The trail centre we go to most often is one called Glentress near Peebles in the borders. It's a great place with trails to suit everyone, from kids to black runs, and you see all sorts in the car parks. Families to dirt-rats. I've even seen guys on cross-bikes! It's not a place for just hard-core riders. Some of the centres are just red-runs and above but GT's got the lot.

When I've bought bikes here, changing the bars has never been mentioned. I've done it myself later, I have quite a few bars and stems in the shed, but shops just sell stock bikes. I would say that's the norm for most shops here. Your model is better.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> I know what you're saying but even with the 65mm riser bars it's not a 'very' upright position. It's only 40mm higher than the bars I was using.


40mm higher than the 'right' height and the bike is a fkn mess. I can't comfortably bend my elbows enough to scale steep ascents and maintain balance, and my focus is on getting my weight forward in corners, not on weighting the bike and managing traction. There's no more comfort, either, since my ass is carrying more weight and i'm forced to hold my upper body in position with my torso for grip and tracking on climbs, rather than just letting bike position hold me. I struggle a bit with drops, too, since i can under-weight the front end pretty easily- when the bar is the right height i just shift my weight a bit at the end of my natural extension.

It's cool it works for you, but most people who mess with this stuff find a super tall front end is uncomfortable and difficult to handle, so you don't see it often.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

scottzg said:


> people who mess with this stuff find a super tall front end is uncomfortable and difficult to handle, so you don't see it often.


+1. Just wanted to clarify that riding an upright version of my own bikes doesn't make it "uncomfortable" in a poor ergonomics way (my butt or wrists don't ache suddenly). It's more like I'm not comfortable with riding with my usual techniques, confidence, style, etc., impeding my ability to handle the bike well. I mean, I tried such a bike on pavement, and was not comfortable turning around 180 between the wide space between parked cars even at low speed (at least 30' of space). Pretty much what Scott's context implied, with the ability to get weight on the front being hampered.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I find this thread very comforting.


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

i do like this bar...


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

singlesprocket said:


> i do like this bar...


Jones H-Bar...:thumbsup:


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

singlesprocket said:


> i do like this bar...


My dentist has something that looks like that.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> My dentist has something that looks like that.


it's a back scratcher


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Mr Pig said:


> Riser bars are uncool. Riser bars are like kryptonite to a mountain biker! What I do not understand is why.
> 
> I have a hard-tail and a full-sus with very similar reach and geometry. The hard-tail is a LOT more comfortable though and after taking the measuring tape to them the main difference is the 60mm riser bar on the hard-tail.
> 
> ...


Alright there has been a lot of mumbo jumbo theories spoke in this thread. 
Here's my take on it: You Pig live on the other side of the pond from the USA. On this side many ride rise bars and find them to be very comfortable. Many ride flat bars as well. I think it is because you are on the other side of the equator. The way the earths rotational masses and magential field lines work. A riser bar on your side of the equator would obviously put your center of gravity too high. In return the magnetic field would force you to rotate to the left forcing the rider flat on his face. Working against the rotation of the cranks. Therefore riser bars were dismissed as fast as they were introduced over there. On this side of the equator [the USA] a riser bar works the opposite way. The magnetic fields force you to stay upright and on point dead center on the bike. Working with the rotation of the cranks. It's similar to flushing a toilet on each side of the equator. The water rotational spins clockwise over here and counter clockwise over there.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Alright there has been a lot of mumbo jumbo theories spoke in this thread. Here's my take on it: You Pig live on the other side of the pond from the USA. On this side many ride rise bars and find them to be very comfortable. Many ride flat bars as well. I think it is because you are on the other side of the equator. The way the earths rotational masses and magential field lines work. A riser bar on your side of the equator would obviously put your center of gravity too high. In return the magnetic field would force you to rotate to the left forcing the rider flat on his face. Working against the rotation of the cranks. Therefore riser bars were dismissed as fast as they were introduced over there. On this side of the equator [the USA] a riser bar works the opposite way. The magnetic fields force you to stay upright and on point dead center on the bike. Working with the rotation of the cranks. It's similar to flushing a toilet on each side of the equator. The water rotational spins clockwise over here and counter clockwise over there.


LMFAO!!! :lol::lol::lol:

How many glasses of wine have you had now DJ???

Pig is on the same of side of the Equator as we are! :lol:


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Hawg said:


> LMFAO!!! :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> How many glasses of wine have you had now DJ???
> 
> Pig is on the same of side of the Equator as we are! :lol:


Well if that's true how do explain this rotational issue?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Hawg said:


> Pig is on the same of side of the Equator as we are! :lol:


We have two things in common?


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Well if that's true how do explain this rotational issue?


There's nothing to explain. You're hallucinating.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Mr Pig said:


> We have two things in common?


Just trying to help a brother out.

Have you fixed the rotational issue? Just stick with flat bars and that issue should go away.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Have you fixed the rotational issue? Just stick with flat bars and that issue should go away.


What if you made the bar on one side longer than the other, to compensate? That way you could enjoy the riseriness and still straighten yourself up!


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Mr Pig said:


> What if you made the bar on one side longer than the other, to compensate? That way you could enjoy the riseriness and still straighten yourself up!


Hmmm this could be the next big thing. Right next to 27.5 / 29'er / new geometry / carbon / dropper / 10 speed / 11 speed / fat bike / plus size wheel fiasco.

For that side of the Equator of course.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Hmmm this could be the next big thing. Right next to 27.5 / 29'er / new geometry / carbon / dropper / 10 speed / 11 speed / fat bike / plus size wheel fiasco.
> 
> For that side of the Equator of course.


Yes, you would need left and right handed versions for the different hemispheres.

The people in the middle can feck off! :0)


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Lol


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## Rock Surf (Aug 28, 2010)

love_that_flow said:


> But wasn't that 15 years ago??
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


Yup, and ten years after that kids will think risers look dumb again and flat bars will be the trend.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Lol


Yeah, middle-people can miss out on the cool new trend. It will give us someone to look down on. We can call them... middi-diddies.



Rock Surf said:


> Yup, and ten years after that kids will think risers look dumb again and flat bars will be the trend.


I really do wonder how much of it is just fashion. I've listened to the arguments about how bars level with the seat give you a more balanced position, better weight distribution etc....then I look at a jump bike! These guys seem to be able to manage their weight distribution pretty well to me.

I'm just heading to Glentress, first time with the new bars. That will be instructive as I've ridden the trails and features there many times so it should be easy to feel what difference the riser bars make.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> I really do wonder how much of it is just fashion. I've listened to the arguments about how bars level with the seat give you a more balanced position, better weight distribution etc....then I look at a jump bike! These guys seem to be able to manage their weight distribution pretty well to me.


But just like the DH bike those bars aren't really high, if the seatpost was in a position where he had full leg extension the saddle would be higher than the handlebars.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

The riser bars still seem to be working! ;0)

On climbs yes, I did notice the front end being a little more eager to lift but it's no big deal. You just put your weight forward as always, I guess bending your arms fractionally more, and it's business as usual.

The rest of the time I actually think it's better, not just rolling along on fire roads etc but on descents and quick single-track, berms etc. It's hard to explain. Because you're in a more 'neutral' position to begin with it seem easier to move your weight around. I found it easier to move around the bike because the natural position I was in when I just relaxed was a more comfortable position. I felt better balanced and felt like I was using less energy.

Sorry ;0)


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Given lengths and weights of a riders body parts, strengths of muscle groups, the geometry of the bike, the flexibility, coordination and reaction times of the rider and the typical trail forces upon the wheels, a super computer would need a month to figure out optimal grip location. And that's only if you knew how to program the computer to to that, which nobody does.

As always, it comes down to this: experiment, do what works for you. And what works this week on this trail may not be so great next week or on the next trail. Ah well, life (and fiddling) go on.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Gasp4Air said:


> Given lengths and weights of a riders body parts, strengths of muscle groups, the geometry of the bike, the flexibility, coordination and reaction times of the rider and the typical trail forces upon the wheels, a super computer would need a month to figure out optimal grip location.


Actually, your kids have probably got an app that does it in three-seconds...


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> Actually, your kids have probably got an app that does it in three-seconds...


You mean on those messaging thingies they always got their puss in?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Gasp4Air said:


> You mean on those messaging thingies they always got their puss in?


Yes. They can perform so many functions that one of these days a manufacturer will forget to include the ability to make phone calls.

And no one will notice...


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> Yes. They can perform so many functions that one of these days a manufacturer will forget to include the ability to make phone calls.
> 
> And no one will notice...


I kid you not - I read about an app that converts your spoken words into text and sends a message for you. The recipient can use the same app to convert the text back to speech. That way, you avoid the hassle of typing, and can still avoid having to actually talk to someone. I expect those under 30 will not detect any irony in this.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Gasp4Air said:


> I expect those under 30 will not detect any irony in this.


My eighteen-year-old son came with us on the ride on Friday. Every two minutes he was stopping to take a picture, I was constantly waiting for him, and at one point he came rolling down the trail one hand on the bars, videoing with the other! I yelled at him:

"For goodness sake will you get with the program? Put the phone away and just ride the damned bike! Flippin youtube generation, if it's not on video it didn't happen."


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## enjoi525 (Oct 11, 2013)

I have recently switched from a 35mm stem to a 50mm stem, the reason being 35mm stem felt as though it had twitchy steering and as though I was steering from behind the fork. I also broke my 20mm rise sixc bars and decided to replace them with 10mm sixc bars. These changes have left me feeling much more forward on the bike which is fine for flatter terrain where it now feels more aggressive, however, I don't like it overall because I don't feel within the center of the bike when I'm on steep terrain. Also, I think it's important for the stem length to be close to the fork rake, in my case that's 44mm for a 27.5 fox 36. I would also like to remove as much spacers as possible to still maintain front end traction, I'm currently running 7.5mm of spacers and am feeling a bit hunched over. From my understanding, for every 10mm of handlebar rise, reach will change by 4mm. What I don't know is how much every 10mm of spacers affects reach. I know the bikes head angle will have an effect on this, my bike is 65 degrees. Does anyone have a rough estimate for this number?? I think my solution is to run a 40mm stem, 2.5mm spacer, and a 27.5mm rise handlebar. I'm hoping this will give me a similar reach to the 35mm stem, 7.5mm spacer, and 20mm rise bar I was previously running. What are people's thoughts on this??


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

enjoi525 said:


> I think it's important for the stem length to be close to the fork rake, in my case that's 44mm for a 27.5 fox 36.


This is the first I've ever heard this before. Is it your own theory? Science? Guess?


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## enjoi525 (Oct 11, 2013)

From this article in addition to my own experience using both the 35mm and 50mm stems. My DH bike has a 52mm rake and I use 50mm stem which feels perfect. This is why I'd like to give the 40mm stem a go. Also, I'm using a zero rise stem.

"After extensive testing during his years on the old Honda G-Cross team, Greg [Minnaar] intimately understood the relationship between fork offset and stem length, "Greg convinced me that you don't want a stem any longer than the offset of your fork," says Marshy. Greg didn't want a stem length too different to the offset of his fork," says Marshy."

Behind the Bike: Developing the XXL Santa Cruz V10 - Pinkbike


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Interesting article, maybe I need to try some more stems. I've got 50s on my bikes right now, 35 was too cramped, but fun. My fork offsets are 42 & 44mm. Also I think it doesn't really matter for the grips get to their position, it's the final grip position that counts. Too many variables for my head, stem length, rise, head tube length, spacers, bar height, sweep, and width. On second thought I sticking with the 50s for now.


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## enjoi525 (Oct 11, 2013)

Travis Bickle said:


> Interesting article, maybe I need to try some more stems. I've got 50s on my bikes right now, 35 was too cramped, but fun. My fork offsets are 42 & 44mm. Also I think it doesn't really matter for the grips get to their position, it's the final grip position that counts. Too many variables for my head, stem length, rise, head tube length, spacers, bar height, sweep, and width. On second thought I sticking with the 50s for now.


I agree that where the grips are positioned gives you a ride feel that is comfortable and balanced within the bike. This topic seems to come up often and the generic response is that there are multiple ways to skin a cat. I think that if you're the average rider, that is fair. However, I have different thoughts on this topic if you are rider who tries to eek out every bit of performance from your ride. I think as you ride more and more aggressive, give more effort into the fork to compress it and ultimately create traction, you look at the stem as a leverage point to the fork. It's hard to find decent info on this, and I'm no engineer, but I do know that fork rake has a greater impact on steering than things like stem length and head angle. But if fork rake was designed to give a certain steering characteristic, why wouldn't you try to match the stem length to the fork rake and then choose the ideal riser bar to achieve hand position, comfort and balance on the bike?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I know where my grips need to be. I could put 30mm spacers under my stem and ride flat bars.

Or I could just use riser bars. And even with the riser bars, my grips are several inches beneath my saddle when the dropper is extended. So... not exactly sitting upright.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

I was trying out wheels on an old '05 XC SS bike that I was going to shelve for a while and focus on other bikes. After the wheels went on I threw a leg over and really had to lean forward to reach the bars, I knew it wasn't going to work, so it was settled that it'd be put away... until I saw my BMX cruiser's bars looking at the SASS, "Try me" they said, well, this is what happened next:










I'm just a set of SS spacers and a couple tire changes away from having it completed! I've ridden it in the yard and out front on the street and it seems completely familiar and functional, no weird steering or anything. I measured all the contact points from the ground and they're all within an inch of my 29'er, so I feel like I'm in about the same position on both.

Now I'm thinking of trying some risers for my 26" squishy bike in the 40mm variety, so not quite as tall as Mr Pig's. I haven't done any measurements on that bike yet, maybe I'll put the wheels back and see what the numbers are, I'm kinda curious now.

Here's the bars I'm interested in: Chromag Bikes - Chromag FU40 bars. All Mountain / Freeride.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Cornfield, I don't know why but that bike looks incredibly cool.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Travis Bickle said:


> Cornfield, I don't know why but that bike looks incredibly cool.


Thanks! I think the same exact thing every time I look at it! 

I'll try to finish it up in the next couple days and see how it does on the trail.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cornfield said:


> Here's the bars I'm interested in: Chromag Bikes - Chromag FU40 bars. All Mountain / Freeride.


I thought we finalized our discussion yesterday on these bars not being carbon. :nono:

Anybody that has ridden carbon bars will vouch for the huge difference in vibration damping you get from them over any other material.

Once you go carbon you .......


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

DJ, I already have carbon bars on my Yelli... I know what they're like... if I get another carbon bar it'll be an Answer 20/20.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cornfield said:


> DJ, I already have carbon bars on my Yelli... I know what they're like... if I get another carbon bar it'll be an Answer 20/20.


Answer this: Easton?


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Answer this: Easton?


That's not important right now, this discussion is about riser bars.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cornfield said:


> That's not important right now, this discussion is about riser bars.


Easton / Riser / Carbon, does that help? 
You can't have one without the other. It's like a Snickers bar, you wouldn't want them to leave out the nougat would you?


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Easton / Riser / Carbon, does that help?
> You can't have one without the other. It's like a Snickers bar, you wouldn't want them to leave out the nougat would you?


yer such a nougat


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

enjoi525 said:


> From my understanding, for every 10mm of handlebar rise, reach will change by 4mm. What I don't know is how much every 10mm of spacers affects reach. I know the bikes head angle will have an effect on this, my bike is 65 degrees. Does anyone have a rough estimate for this number??


For a 65 degree head angle, 10mm of spacers moves the grips back 4.2mm.
Cos65 = x/10
x=4.2

Raising the bar with bar rise or with stem spacers does the same thing, assuming the bars are oriented so that the rise is in the direction of the head angle.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Easton / Riser / Carbon, does that help?
> You can't have one without the other. It's like a Snickers bar, you wouldn't want them to leave out the nougat would you?


This is an experiment. I may not like them, so why would I drop coin on carbon? I also want to try more width, Easton stops at 750 wide with their Havoks, FU40 is 780.

Does anyone know of a riser bar with more than 5° of up sweep? Loaded has one, but only 25mm rise: Loaded USA :: Loaded Precision Components :: Products


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## bmied31 (Oct 26, 2017)

Gasp4Air said:


> I'm 6 ft with a 35+ inch inseam. Even on a large frame my seat is up there. To get the grips to the level of the saddle, risers and 25-30 degree stems are a necessity for me.


Did that seem to resolve things for you. I am the exact same height and inseam riding a large Diamondback Release 1. With the large I have about a half inch before the seatpost is maxed out and the bars are about a inch below my saddle and I get lower back pain when I ride.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

The Patrol has 35mm clamp area stem & bars and I'm not finding any 50mm+ risers in this range with 35.0mm instead of 31.8.

RaceFace bars on Transition Patrol (Large)









Atomlab pimplite 3" bars on my Black Market Killswitch. 









80mm fork and 4" bars on a Black Market Mob. Similar in height to 8" bars on a 24" BMX.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

cmc4130 said:


> Atomlab pimplite 3" bars on my Black Market Killswitch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Subtract the height of the BB from those and they might effectively be different. When you ride a bike, you stand on the pedals, not on the ground. I'm just curious how that works out.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

mack_turtle said:


> Subtract the height of the BB from those and they might effectively be different. When you ride a bike, you stand on the pedals, not on the ground. I'm just curious how that works out.


Yes, good point. I've thought of stuff like that! I don't try to get the stance height (feet up to hands) exactly the same on all my bikes, but I do consider it. One thing I've also noticed is that longer-reach bikes sometimes feel like they need taller stance height (feet up to hands) because when you're leaned forward and down there is more strain than when you're holding something low close to you.

The Liquid Feedback 24" BMX on the left has a bb height of 12.7". (I know it's pictured here with a front load stem, but I ended up raising that front end a bit with a top load). I discussed the geometry with the designer before he made them. The idea was to have the bottom bracket more above axle level (0.7") than a typical BMX race cruiser, but not as high as on 20" BMX (where the bb is 1.75" above axle level). https://cruiserrevolution.com/tag/liquid-feedback-frame/

On the Black Market Mob, the bottom bracket drop was 0.75", for a 12.25" bb height, if I remember correctly (although it was never quite clear if it was based on an 80mm or 100mm fork).


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Two words: Dropper stems.


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## Ghstklr1 (May 13, 2021)

My 50 year old back loves a little rise.


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