# Completed Bafang BBSHD kit install



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

I posted a couple of weeks ago that I was looking to convert my full suspension MTB to electric. It's completed and I'm very pleased with the results.

Order the BBSHD kit from Bafang Direct USA. Selected the 48v 11.7 ampHour ultraslim pack as it was the only one that appeared it would fit in my main triangle. There were two items that required substantial modification.

The first was battery pack fitment. The battery has a bracket that mounts to the water bottle bosses. Problem is the whole on the battery bracket require water bottle bosses that are half way up the down tube. Most bikes have the bottle bosses relatively close to the bottom bracket. I had to fabricate a mounting adapter plate made of 1/8 inch aluminum. Plate was 1.25 by 16 inch. Water bottle bosses bolt to one end of the aluminum, the battery bracket bolts to the other end of the aluminum plate.

The other problem involved mounting the brake sensors. The MTB i used has hydraulic brakes. Some hydraulic brakes are relatively easy to bond the sensor magnet to the brake lever and bond the sensor to the brake lever assembly. My Elixir brakes had no where to effectively mount the sensors. I ended up taking a section of road tire tube and wrapping around the brake lever assembly to properly place the brake sensor in close enough proximity to the magnet. Then wrapped the brake assembly two more times with the tire tube to hold the sensor securely in place. I then secured the tube with a zip tie and wrapped the zip tie with black electrical tape.

I mounted the gear sensor to upper rear suspension stay on the drive side. Speed sensor on lower suspension stay on non-drive side. I used an old tire sock mounted right above the bottom bracket in main triangle to store excess cabling in a single central location.

Taking the bike out a couple of times, I noticed the motor seemed to be bogging down a little on the steeper sections of a few local hills. There are brief sections on these that are 13%. The stock chainring is 46 tooth and doesn't hold the chain under very much chain angle. No way can it accomodate the full range of the cassette. It could handle three or four cogs in the middle of the cassette at max before jumping. For those two reasons, I ordered a Lekkie 42 ring that uses a wide/narrow chainring design (should hold chain better). I'm also going to mount a chain guide where the front derailleur would typically be located. Once the 42 chainring and chain holder are installed it should be easily capable of running the 14 -24 cogs that represent the middle five cogs on my 9spd cassette. That gives a gear ratio range of 3.0 to 1.75. The 1.75 should be enough to handle anything not over 15%. I don't really plan on using it on anything really steep or long, so it should be adequate for my needs. It's possible that it'll run the 28 cog as well which would give it a 1.5 ratio gear.

I'm very satisfied with how it's turned out. A couple of people with ebikes saw it and were suprised at how clean the final result looked.


----------



## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Nice work on your project. I am thinking you may also need a clutch derailleur, unless of course you only ride the road or smooth trails. Please elaborate on your chainline issue. Are you saying you can only run 42 front/14-24 rear? That seems rather limiting, especially with 26" wheels etc.


----------



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

Jack7782, I don't ride on rough terraiin. Smooth trails and roads. My days on technical trails are long over. I've heard from numerous other Bafang mid-mount owners that the stock Bafang chainring is horrible about chain coming off. They don't handle much of a chain angle at all. The chainline right now centers on the fourth largest cog. As the bike is right now I can run the third largest cog, fourth, fifth and sixth without the chain coming off. A chain holder would help with the issue and give a couple of extra gears. The thing is, these Bafang units like to run at high rpms. I've been running it pretty much in the 46x21 constantly. I wouldn't think of running the thing in much more than a 2.5:1 gear ratio. It seems to be more at home running a 2:1 ratio. I don't use the pedal assist, so having a chainring that is turning over 120 rpm isn't a problem for me.


----------



## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

OldRoady said:


> Jack7782, I don't ride on rough terraiin. Smooth trails and roads. My days on technical trails are long over. I've heard from numerous other Bafang mid-mount owners that the stock Bafang chainring is horrible about chain coming off. They don't handle much of a chain angle at all. The chainline right now centers on the fourth largest cog. As the bike is right now I can run the third largest cog, fourth, fifth and sixth without the chain coming off. A chain holder would help with the issue and give a couple of extra gears. The thing is, these Bafang units like to run at high rpms. I've been running it pretty much in the 46x21 constantly. I wouldn't think of running the thing in much more than a 2.5:1 gear ratio. It seems to be more at home running a 2:1 ratio. I don't use the pedal assist, so having a chainring that is turning over 120 rpm isn't a problem for me.


No pedal assist sensors and/or no pedal assist at all? On a mid-drive bike, with the throttle, I assume you must "spin" 120rpm too. Is that how it works? Are you going to clip in? Might be the way to go. Can you send close up picture of the throttle?


----------



## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

Hare you figured out what kind of range you have yet??


----------



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

I took the bike over to a local park for a walk. A few steep hills between the park and home. 9 miles total on the bike and it had a full charge when I left home. The base display for the Bafang units doesn't show a numeric %, but a battery graphic in 20% increments. It was showing 60-80% remaining charge upon completion. My guess is that the range is probably around 25 miles, throttle only running at roughly 50% max power. That's plenty of range for me. I don't plan on going out on this thing for 3 hours at a stretch like I use to when I did a lot of road and off-road riding.


----------



## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

That is awesome. Longer range than I would think for that battery. Thanks for the info.


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

The throttle on a BBSHD is not very refined although its programable to a more manageable level. I flat out don't use it. Range sucks with just the throttle. 25 miles is generous on flat terrain for your bike with throttle only. 

The pedal assist is quite refined. I have mine programed at lower power levels on each step, closer together and lower than the factory levels. As it stands with 9 levels, you probably would seldom get above level 3 without reprograming. 
The stock chainring sucks. Buy an aftermarket like the Lieke or Luna. There are several aftermarket makers out there. 42 tooth minimum for a decent chain line. You will never lose your chain again and your chains will last. 

You will have to get creative with some silicone if you want it to be functionally waterproof. Not submersible waterproof. They operate erratic with water in them. other than water, they are pretty bullet proof for what you want to do.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

OldRoady said:


>


My that's tight! I see you reversed the shock for more clearance, I thought that might be an option. Is the plastic battery case touching or distorted? Do you charge on the bike or remove the battery to charge?

Keep us posted on your project.


----------



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

Old & Slow said:


> My that's tight! I see you reversed the shock for more clearance, I thought that might be an option. Is the plastic battery case touching or distorted? Do you charge on the bike or remove the battery to charge?
> 
> Keep us posted on your project.


THanks O&S. I didn't switch the shock. It came that way stock. The shock doesn't touch at all. But there is very little clearance. And it is so tight I cannot remove the battery from battery bracket as it sits. I have to remove the bottom water bottle bolt, then pivot the aluminum bracket on the remaining water bottle bolt to swing the fabricated aluminum bracket out to remove the battery. That one took a little brainstorming on my part to come up with. I sat and thought about it for a while and then it hit me. So simple. I charge the batterry on the bike. I figure that in the dead of winter, I will remove the battery so it isn't out in the garage during our Missouri winter.


----------



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

PierreR said:


> The throttle on a BBSHD is not very refined although its programable to a more manageable level. I flat out don't use it. Range sucks with just the throttle. 25 miles is generous on flat terrain for your bike with throttle only.
> 
> The pedal assist is quite refined. I have mine programed at lower power levels on each step, closer together and lower than the factory levels. As it stands with 9 levels, you probably would seldom get above level 3 without reprograming.
> The stock chainring sucks. Buy an aftermarket like the Lieke or Luna. There are several aftermarket makers out there. 42 tooth minimum for a decent chain line. You will never lose your chain again and your chains will last.
> ...


Pierre, thanks for the input on the chainring and sealing the battery. I can't peddle the bike. It causes to much inflamation in my back. I can walk 2 or 3 miles at a brisk pace, but if I pedal a bike that far, I'm in agony. I wish I could use the pedal assist, believe me. I've noticed throttle is pretty jerky unless you use a feather touch. Maybe I will look into the programming options after I get things settled in with the bike? I have already ordered a 42 Lekkie Bling Ring. I wanted something with a little lower gear ratio than the stock 46 and I read that the 42 maintains a good chain line. Thanks for reassuring me that I made the right choice. I won't be riding it in the rain, so I won't be worried too much about moisture.


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

OldRoady said:


> I've noticed throttle is pretty jerky unless you use a feather touch. Maybe I will look into the programming options after I get things settled in with the bike?


 My throttle is programed to mimic my level 5 out of 9 assist. Max watts on throttle is 430 watts. I also programed it so that I have to activate it through 20 % of its range before it will work. To easy to hit it at a stop light talking and end up out in traffic. I consider the unprogrammed throttle to be too dangerous. If I need more than 430 watts I get to pedal for it. I have the speed on throttle programed to 17 mph but was thinking of changing it to 20. At 17 mph the power falls back to something around 250 watts or so and doesn't kill the battery.

You will like the Bling Ring. I calculate with your 560 watt hour battery that you can pull about 430 Wh from it charged up. That should get you around 22 miles at 18-20 mph. Don't believe the battery gauge on Bafang. It will have you pedaling sooner or later.

You may also find out that the BBSHD system allows you to do some pedaling, not so much for assist but to gain range of motion. Being as the BBSHD is a PAS cadence system and not a torque system the less you pedal the more assist you get not the other way around. Perfect for someone that cannot put much power into the pedals or whom cannot pedal hard. I just takes over when you pedal softer. You can literally set it up the just be tracing with the pedals like you were in PT. Play with it, you may find out it helps your back. I call the cadence sensed bikes, health bikes because they work so well for physically challenged people.

You can also get shorter cranks for it so the range of motion is not as great through your back.

Think about an Infinity Seat Saddle. The only saddle I have ever sat on that gets more comfortable the longer I sit on it. That saddle has done wonders for my back and hips. I have a devil of a time getting off the bike after riding it for a while. A dropper post is most handy for dismounting. 
Get rid of those flat bars and get something with more rise and sweep.

If you can walk, there has to be a way to set up pain free to pedal. Especially with the Bafang mid drive.


----------



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

Pierre, thanks for programming tips. I'll have to dig into that bit by bit. I've seen some pretty decent programming info on the web without really going to far into the details. Hopefully I'll be able to use the pedal assist functions after a little fiddling. I've considered a dropper seat post for exactly the reasons you pointed out.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

PierreR said:


> If you can walk, there has to be a way to set up pain free to pedal. Especially with the Bafang mid drive.


That was my thought too. I just went through an episode of severe low back pain and beside the initial steroid prescription, walking and daily low back stretches have really helped.

Pierre, you are clearly a Bafang guru. Wonder if you noticed my questions in the picture thread?

I've been wanting a Bafang for the throttle and the programming. To the best of my knowledge none of the major eMTB brands offer a throttle even as a user install.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

AFAICT, they don't offer it because they want the bikes to adhere to Class 1 standards being adopted in the US (about half of the states adopted the three-tiered designations), and because their similar (but 15 mph, instead of 20 mph) EU models don't have them.


----------



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

Old & Slow said:


> Pierre, you are clearly a Bafang guru. Wonder if you noticed my questions in the picture thread?
> 
> I've been wanting a Bafang for the throttle and the programming. To the best of my knowledge none of the major eMTB brands offer a throttle even as a user install.


Pierre, if you know a really good Bafang programming resource on the web, could you share it with us?

Thanks,
Phil


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

OldRoady said:


> Pierre, if you know a really good Bafang programming resource on the web, could you share it with us?
> 
> Thanks,
> Phil


I just use the programing that was available on Luna's web site from 4 years ago when I built the first E bike. I have just learned a lot about what changes do what in a practical sense based on needs. I have now built 10 and will soon build four more. I can pretty well trouble shoot and repair any problem with the Bafang's

I tend to reprogram as needs change. As the season progresses I drop power from levels and shift power percentages as people gain or lose fitness. It only takes me 5 minutes to change a Bafang. Most of everything I do is for physically challenged people. I haven't built and e bike for any one under 58 yet.


----------



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

PierreR said:


> I just use the programing that was available on Luna's web site from 4 years ago when I built the first E bike. I have just learned a lot about what changes do what in a practical sense based on needs. I have now built 10 and will soon build four more. I can pretty well trouble shoot and repair any problem with the Bafang's
> 
> I tend to reprogram as needs change. As the season progresses I drop power from levels and shift power percentages as people gain or lose fitness. It only takes me 5 minutes to change a Bafang. Most of everything I do is for physically challenged people. I haven't built and e bike for any one under 58 yet.


Very commendable!


----------



## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

PierreR said:


> My throttle is programed to mimic my level 5 out of 9 assist. Max watts on throttle is 430 watts. I also programed it so that I have to activate it through 20 % of its range before it will work. To easy to hit it at a stop light talking and end up out in traffic. I consider the unprogrammed throttle to be too dangerous. If I need more than 430 watts I get to pedal for it. I have the speed on throttle programed to 17 mph but was thinking of changing it to 20. At 17 mph the power falls back to something around 250 watts or so and doesn't kill the battery.
> 
> You will like the Bling Ring. I calculate with your 560 watt hour battery that you can pull about 430 Wh from it charged up. That should get you around 22 miles at 18-20 mph. Don't believe the battery gauge on Bafang. It will have you pedaling sooner or later.
> 
> ...


So if you drop the power why not save a couple bucks and go with theBafang 750W BBS02? I realize the BBSHD is more robust, but I haven't heard any horror stories about the 02.


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

ironbrewer said:


> So if you drop the power why not save a couple bucks and go with theBafang 750W BBS02? I realize the BBSHD is more robust, but I haven't heard any horror stories about the 02.


If you want to save a little weight and don't have a fat bike you can go with the BBSO2. You will save some dollars and a pound or two.
Pluses for the SO2 are lighter, cheaper, smaller diameter. That may be enough to justify the SO2 over the BBSHD.

Pluses for the BBSHD are, more robust, 10% more energy efficient 69% vs 63%. Range is 10% more. Throttle programing option, not as great of risk of overheating. Better controller- quiet vs a slight whine for the SO2.


----------



## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

PierreR said:


> If you want to save a little weight and don't have a fat bike you can go with the BBSO2. You will save some dollars and a pound or two.
> Pluses for the SO2 are lighter, cheaper, smaller diameter. That may be enough to justify the SO2 over the BBSHD.
> 
> Pluses for the BBSHD are, more robust, 10% more energy efficient 69% vs 63%. Range is 10% more. Throttle programing option, not as great of risk of overheating. Better controller- quiet vs a slight whine for the SO2.


Thanks for the info. sounds like the BBSHD is probably worth the extra cash. The 10% gain in efficiency is big. The other things sound like a bonus.


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

ironbrewer said:


> Thanks for the info. sounds like the BBSHD is probably worth the extra cash. The 10% gain in efficiency is big. The other things sound like a bonus.


All pros for the BBSHD, but the throttle programing, are related. I believe the BBSHD is a sine wave controller and the SO2 is a modified square sine wave controller. The loss in efficiency is in the form of heat and the modified sine wave controller has some noise. The noise of the SO2 is not loud but it takes a little bit away from the whole bike experience.


----------



## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

My one advice for HD motor install is to secure the motor well, with Luna bracket or similar, and wrap the frame where it could touch. The motor is heavy and that lockring can come loose, if the motor is able to move it can cause frame damage.


----------



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

Installed the Lekkie 42 Blingring on the bike. Had it out for about 15 miles since. No problems shifting, I've only needed the 16 - 24 cogs so far (11-32 9spd cassette). The short local hills I have to get over max out a little over 10% and are less 1/4 mile in length. Changing from the 46 stock chainring is definite improvement. No real complaints with the bike so far. Pedal assist works nicely, brake and shift sensors are working as intended. I'm not using anywhere close to even half of the battery range, rides are typically less than 9 miles.


----------



## Jake January (Sep 12, 2014)

ironbrewer said:


> So if you drop the power why not save a couple bucks and go with theBafang 750W BBS02? I realize the BBSHD is more robust, but I haven't heard any horror stories about the 02.


I got an old MTB with the BBS02. It's been great, close to 4000 kms. Replaced, chain and cassette at 3500kms. 
My display read 999W when running #5 PAS.

I'd love to do a BBSHD kit an another old bike... But the BBS02 is just fine for now


----------



## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

I have both BBS02 and BBSHD and you can't go wrong with either. For comparison I can go 5mph faster on the street with the HD, which is significant at higher speeds. It's more moped-like.

The 02 is still pretty powerful and being smaller, lighter and cheaper is nice too.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

OldRoady said:


> Taking the bike out a couple of times, I noticed the motor seemed to be bogging down a little on the steeper sections of a few local hills. There are brief sections on these that are 13%. The stock chainring is 46 tooth and doesn't hold the chain under very much chain angle. No way can it accomodate the full range of the cassette. It could handle three or four cogs in the middle of the cassette at max before jumping. For those two reasons, I ordered a Lekkie 42 ring that uses a wide/narrow chainring design (should hold chain better). I'm also going to mount a chain guide where the front derailleur would typically be located. Once the 42 chainring and chain holder are installed it should be easily capable of running the 14 -24 cogs that represent the middle five cogs on my 9spd cassette. That gives a gear ratio range of 3.0 to 1.75. The 1.75 should be enough to handle anything not over 15%. I don't really plan on using it on anything really steep or long, so it should be adequate for my needs. It's possible that it'll run the 28 cog as well which would give it a 1.5 ratio gear.


Looks like your rig is very similar to mine.
Old FS 26" tires with 3x9 gearing. Bought an excellent old Intense Spider which I measured before purchase for the battery. I'll be able to fit a 48V 17AH after I install some bottle holder threads higher on the downtube.

Curious about the chain angle comments and your use of only the middle of the cassette. My motor is coming with the 42T but I can fit as small as 32T with an aftermarket chainring. I have multiple 20% grades which are rough 4WD roads, so slow is in order.

Appreciate your thoughts on problems I might encounter.


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

O&S, problem is the reduction housing that causes the bad chainline. The only way I have found to decent chainline is with an offset chainring like the Lekkie. Unfortunately due to the diameter of the housing the smallest ring available is a 42t. The lowest gearing you can get is with a 50t rear cassette. I use the Box one with a wolf link to drop my SRAM derailleur. Only 9spd. but I find it all one needs on an eBike, a trail oriented one anyway.

The 32t ring will not provide good chainline to the lower cassette cogs as it sits outside the housing.


----------



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

I've had the 42T Lekkie installed for a couple of months now. I don't put anywhere near the miles on this thing as I did when I was road riding. Less than 200 miles going over to the local park. The Lekkie holds the chain extremely well. The stock Bafang chainring was horrible about dumping the chain when shifing or even hitting a decent bump in the road.

With the 42, it lines up really well with my 24 and 21 cogs. It's a 9spd 11x32. I don't ride off road and haven't had the bike on anything really steep. The hills near home are only 1/8 to 1/4 mile long and max out around 15%. From what you describe a 32 chainring is probably the way to go. I never really use anything lower than the 42x28 on my local roads. I've never used a smaller cog than the 16. Typically I'm comfortable cruising the bike at 16-18 mph and a 2x1 gear will easily give you that speed at 50% power on the BBSHD.

From my experience, you'll want to have your chainline utilizing your most used gear. The more chain deflection, chain and cog wear will increase dramaticallly. Unfortunately, most situations there is a limit to how much you can actually alter the chainline.

Yes, you will most likely have to install bottle holder threads higher up on the down tube. The bottle bosses on my Ibex would not accommodate the battery bracket. I fabricated a bracket utilizing the stock bottle bosses. But if you can get the bosses installed exactly where you want, that would be a cleaner look. The battery fit on my Ibex Astra is extremely tight. You may need to consider that you will need an extra 1/2 inch clearance in height to get the battery out of the bracket.

Best of luck with your build.

Phil,



Old & Slow said:


> Looks like your rig is very similar to mine.
> Old FS 26" tires with 3x9 gearing. Bought an excellent old Intense Spider which I measured before purchase for the battery. I'll be able to fit a 48V 17AH after I install some bottle holder threads higher on the downtube.
> 
> Curious about the chain angle comments and your use of only the middle of the cassette. My motor is coming with the 42T but I can fit as small as 32T with an aftermarket chainring. I have multiple 20% grades which are rough 4WD roads, so slow is in order.
> ...


----------



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

Good comment Bigwheel. I had forgetten that the 32T Lekkie puts your chainline on the smallest cogs.



Bigwheel said:


> O&S, problem is the reduction housing that causes the bad chainline. The only way I have found to decent chainline is with an offset chainring like the Lekkie. Unfortunately due to the diameter of the housing the smallest ring available is a 42t. The lowest gearing you can get is with a 50t rear cassette. I use the Box one with a wolf link to drop my SRAM derailleur. Only 9spd. but I find it all one needs on an eBike, a trail oriented one anyway.
> 
> The 32t ring will not provide good chainline to the lower cassette cogs as it sits outside the housing.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

Bigwheel said:


> O&S, problem is the reduction housing that causes the bad chainline. The only way I have found to decent chainline is with an offset chainring like the Lekkie. Unfortunately due to the diameter of the housing the smallest ring available is a 42t. The lowest gearing you can get is with a 50t rear cassette. I use the Box one with a wolf link to drop my SRAM derailleur. Only 9spd. but I find it all one needs on an eBike, a trail oriented one anyway.
> 
> The 32t ring will not provide good chainline to the lower cassette cogs as it sits outside the housing.


Thanks for that explanation. I found a number of 9 speed Cassettes 11-50t on Amazon. If I have the concave 42T chainring and a 11-50t, will the chain line allow use of the 50T inner cog?

There are even more cassettes in 10 or 11 speed, would any of those work?


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

OldRoady said:


> With the 42, it lines up really well with my 24 and 21 cogs. It's a 9spd 11x32. I don't ride off road and haven't had the bike on anything really steep. The hills near home are only 1/8 to 1/4 mile long and max out around 15%. From what you describe a 32 chainring is probably the way to go. I never really use anything lower than the 42x28 on my local roads. I've never used a smaller cog than the 16. Typically I'm comfortable cruising the bike at 16-18 mph and a 2x1 gear will easily give you that speed at 50% power on the BBSHD.
> 
> Best of luck with your build.
> 
> Phil,


Thanks Phil.

Here's a somewhat typical ride:








Try to keep under 10-12 mph for the dog. Those 20% grades killed me and the Lectric hub motor. Went through two which failed then Lectric refund the purchase price. No more hub motor for me . . . BBSHD all the way.


----------



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

If that 42t is stock Bafang, my guess is no, it won't hold the chain. The 42t Lekkie is probably your best bet. Lekkie uses a wide/narrow chainring design that is far superior for holding the chain.

I think going with a Lekkie 42t and a 9spd cassette that has a 50t is going to be the way to go. You can't use a 10 or 11 speed chain with your current rear derailleur. If your chainline sits straight to your 3rd of 4th largest cog, you should be fine. That's were my chainline is with the 42t chainring and it'll get to my largest cog (32).

If you go with the 50 cassette, you will likely need to add a few links into your chain. You will have to eyeball it when put things back together before go back out on the road.



Old & Slow said:


> Thanks for that explanation. I found a number of 9 speed Cassettes 11-50t on Amazon. If I have the concave 42T chainring and a 11-50t, will the chain line allow use of the 50T inner cog?
> 
> There are even more cassettes in 10 or 11 speed, would any of those work?


----------



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

Jesus, that's rarified air you are riding in. I think if I tried pedalling that even back in the day when I was really fit, I'd be gassed in no time!

Take an O2 tank for your dog.

With the type of terrain you are dealing with a BBSHD is likely the best way to go. 


Old & Slow said:


> Thanks Phil.
> 
> Here's a somewhat typical ride:
> 
> ...


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

Thanks Phil



OldRoady said:


> If that 42t is stock Bafang, my guess is no, it won't hold the chain. The 42t Lekkie is probably your best bet. Lekkie uses a wide/narrow chainring design that is far superior for holding the chain.


My Google searches seems to bear this out. Stock 42T: chains off, Lekkie 42T chain stays on.



> I think going with a Lekkie 42t and a 9spd cassette that has a 50t is going to be the way to go. You can't use a 10 or 11 speed chain with your current rear derailleur. If your chainline sits straight to your 3rd of 4th largest cog, you should be fine. That's were my chainline is with the 42t chainring and it'll get to my largest cog (32).


Okay, so you can get to your 32. I also have an 11-32. Things sure have changed these past years.



> If you go with the 50 cassette, you will likely need to add a few links into your chain. You will have to eyeball it when put things back together before go back out on the road.


Looks like the 11-50 will wait to spring, already snowed once, no telling how much longer.


----------



## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Bigwheel
i want to do a BBSHD but am concerned about getting a decent chain line with low enough gearing for my style of riding.

I am interested in the details of your post #28.
You mentioned the "lowest gearing you can get is with a 50t cassette", that you use a 
9 spd, Box One, and wolf link to drop the SRAM derailleur.

1. Are you using a 50t on your cassette and since it is a 9 speed does that move the 50t outboard enough to get a decent chain line?
2. Does Box One offer a 1x9 cassette with a 50t?

Thanks
Highroad


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

highroad 2 said:


> Bigwheel
> i want to do a BBSHD but am concerned about getting a decent chain line with low enough gearing for my style of riding.
> 
> I am interested in the details of your post #28.
> ...


Actually I have a Box 2 11-50 going on but I got blocked by not having the extra chain I thought I had and am awaiting Amazon....









It looks like stock is low/OOS across the board though but my guy in PDX had one on the shelf that he traded me for straightening out a rear wheel for a customer that was on a BBSHD bike.

Not for sure yet about the chainline in the 50t but it centers on the cassette same as it does with the 11-46t I am replacing it with. I am not sure about what you mention in #1 but I'll eyeball that tomo.









I use TSDZ2 motors and the off set type rings are made for BBSHD so you won't have to go through the steps I did, drill new holes and figure out spacers, to mount one to the stock spider but I couldn't get it any closer to the housing for sure.









I've never seen on mounted on a BBSHD so I would have to guess that at least it will be as good a chain line as you can get.

I like the 9spd on my eMTB's and feel it's all I need to keep it on the pipe so to speak. The 42/46 was just a bit hard to navigate uphill switch backs and this hopefully will at least give some relief.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

Has anyone tried a chain guide to keep the chain on the Bafang stamped steel ring?

This one on Amazon has great reviews and several photos to show mounting. 
https://smile.amazon.com/Quintessen...07GC858GP/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

It mounts to the lower chainstay and you don't have to break the chain to install. Cheap too: $12.

Would be cool if it would allow a 32T chainring.


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Old & Slow said:


> Thanks for that explanation. I found a number of 9 speed Cassettes 11-50t on Amazon. If I have the concave 42T chainring and a 11-50t, will the chain line allow use of the 50T inner cog?
> 
> There are even more cassettes in 10 or 11 speed, would any of those work?


I now have more than 10k miles on my bike with BBSHD, Liekie 42 ring and SRAM 11 speed 11-46 Cassette. Chainline is perfect, no busted chains in 10k miles. Chain life 2000+ miles. never dropped a chain. 52V

I have never had a problem climbing grade slowly except keeping the front of the bike planted. I have 9 levels. BBSHD comes from the factory with 10% jumps in power. Ditch that and reprogram the BBSHD to lower then wider settings. 
My jumps are the following % of 30 amps. 5,3,5,5,12,15,15,15,U My speed settings are in mph 20,20,20,20,20,20,24,28,28. First 6 level are class 1 and following 2 are class 3. 
For those of you whom think I can't do math, remember, power being pulled from the battery is not the same as power being delivered by the motor. The BBSO2 is roughly 65% and the BBSHD is roughly 71% efficient. Yeah I know, that is not what is advertised. So a BBSO2 putting out 750 watts is pulling 1,200 watts of battery and a BBSHD putting out 750 watts is pulling 1,060 watts of battery.

To put that into perspective my first jump is 5% of 30 amps at 52V so a draw of 1.5 amps or 78 watts, my next jump is 3% so that level is 2.4 amps or 125 watts, My next jump is 5% or a jump to 3.9 amps or 203 watts. You can do the rest.

I find these low levels to be perfect most of the time. Off road I am mostly in level 3-4 with steep grades at level 6. These low levels provide decent jumps without being punchy. Since the BBSHD has torque values in the 120+ NM range, low values plus 46 tooth big ring in the back provides decent climbing power for very steep grades. The upper levels beyond level 6 are really road settings. On roads I seldom use them because the suck so much battery but we have some 17% grades around here where the cars try to pass with at hundred yards at best visibility so the less time I am on them the less time I have for that exposure. Yesterdays rides found me off the road with two passes like that. 
On conversion to a 11-46 tooth rear cassette, a lifesaver is the wolf tooth Roadlink. You can generally use your same derailleur and fewer added links to accommodate the larger cassette. This is especially true for Shimano 10 and 11 speed setups.


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Take the stock Bafang chainring and pitch it off a bridge so you are not temped to use it. Get yourself the Liekie or the Luna offset replacement and be done with it.

The stock chain ring was meant for a three speed bike with someone sitting on the handle bars and another on the bike rack rolling down the road in Guangdong China.


----------



## OldRoady (Jun 5, 2020)

PierreR, thanks for the programming tips. Haven't picked up the programming cable yet, but it's on my short list.



PierreR said:


> I now have more than 10k miles on my bike with BBSHD, Liekie 42 ring and SRAM 11 speed 11-46 Cassette. Chainline is perfect, no busted chains in 10k miles. Chain life 2000+ miles. never dropped a chain. 52V
> 
> I have never had a problem climbing grade slowly except keeping the front of the bike planted. I have 9 levels. BBSHD comes from the factory with 10% jumps in power. Ditch that and reprogram the BBSHD to lower then wider settings.
> My jumps are the following % of 30 amps. 5,3,5,5,12,15,15,15,U My speed settings are in mph 20,20,20,20,20,20,24,28,28. First 6 level are class 1 and following 2 are class 3.
> ...


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

PierreR said:


> I now have more than 10k miles on my bike with BBSHD, Liekie 42 ring and SRAM 11 speed 11-46 Cassette. Chainline is perfect, no busted chains in 10k miles. Chain life 2000+ miles. never dropped a chain. 52V
> 
> Take the stock Bafang chainring and pitch it off a bridge so you are not temped to use it. Get yourself the Liekie or the Luna offset replacement and be done with it.


Excellent info, good to know there is a fallback option.

Initially, I plan to take the old friction front derailleur off my ghetto bike and see if I can't cobble up an upper chain retainer. My post in #38, lower retainer, perhaps solves the wrong problem.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

PierreR said:


> I have never had a problem climbing grade slowly except keeping the front of the bike planted.


Does that suggest I'll have to stand on the pedals and lean over the handlebars for a 20% grade?

No problem with the Lectric, that wennie hub motor couldn't get up the 20% grade, I had to walk it. 



> I have 9 levels. BBSHD comes from the factory with 10% jumps in power. Ditch that and reprogram the BBSHD to lower then wider settings.
> My jumps are the following % of 30 amps. 5,3,5,5,12,15,15,15,U My speed settings are in mph 20,20,20,20,20,20,24,28,28.


Nice, I'll use those numbers as my starting point. I ordered the cable with the motor. Now they have to ship it.


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Old & Slow said:


> Excellent info, good to know there is a fallback option.
> 
> Initially, I plan to take the old friction front derailleur off my ghetto bike and see if I can't cobble up an upper chain retainer. My post in #38, lower retainer, perhaps solves the wrong problem.


No mater what you do or what you use its an exercise in futility and you will not be satisfied until you go with an aftermarket narrow wide ring. You will spend the difference in price on chains within a few thousand miles. Do yourself a favor, order the Liekie ring or the luna ring and have a good experience.

If you don't, know that you are setting yourself up for another order and wait for parts. I have built ten bikes and been involved in others whom had difficulties. No one has kept the bafang ring.


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Old & Slow said:


> Does that suggest I'll have to stand on the pedals and lean over the handlebars for a 20% grade?
> 
> Nice, I'll use those numbers as my starting point. I ordered the cable with the motor. Now they have to ship it.


Getting over the front depends on the bike. A short bike with short chainstays and big tires is a possibility. I don't have to do that with my bike.

Those numbers are the most natural feeling that I have come up with. The stock programing power increases are to much at the lowest settings. You end up with not enough power or the next step is too much. Stock programing is okay for commuting and road riding but lacks everywhere else including group rides.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

PierreR said:


> Those numbers are the most natural feeling that I have come up with. The stock programing power increases are to much at the lowest settings. You end up with not enough power or the next step is too much. Stock programing is okay for commuting and road riding but lacks everywhere else including group rides.


That was exactly the problem with the Lectric XP, PAS 1 was fine, But 2 was supercharged, and 3 & 4 were hardly noticeable. It only had 5 levels and not programable.

https://lectricebikes.com/collections/ebikes

It had so many failures I sent it back TWICE, full refund. That ebike is intended for pavement, not 20% 4WD roads.

Here's a view from the top of the first 20% grade:









You can see why I want an ebike that'll carry me, rather than me it.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

PierreR said:


> No mater what you do or what you use its an exercise in futility and you will not be satisfied until you go with an aftermarket narrow wide ring. You will spend the difference in price on chains within a few thousand miles. Do yourself a favor, order the Liekie ring or the luna ring and have a good experience.
> 
> If you don't, know that you are setting yourself up for another order and wait for parts. I have built ten bikes and been involved in others whom had difficulties. No one has kept the bafang ring.


Loud and Clear . . . Thanks!

I put both in my BBSHD folder for reference. The Lekkie is N-W is the Luna?


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Old & Slow said:


> Loud and Clear . . . Thanks!
> 
> I put both in my BBSHD folder for reference. The Lekkie is N-W is the Luna?


Luna is in Southern California just south of LA. They have their own ring design that has the feature of being able to change rings when the wear gets too much. I have over 10k miles on my Liekie ring and its still fine but I change chains when wear gets to 75%


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

PierreR said:


> Luna is in Southern California just south of LA. They have their own ring design that has the feature of being able to change rings when the wear gets too much. I have over 10k miles on my Liekie ring and its still fine but I change chains when wear gets to 75%


Sorry for that confusing question, whenever you use an abbreviation you risk confusing the message.

I was surprised that Luna does not mention narrow wide tooth profile anywhere in their text. However, close examination of their photo shows vastly different alternating teeth.

So follow up, how do you know when a chain has worn 75%? Stretch? Eyeball? Other?

Your mileage numbers vastly exceed anything I'm likely to attain. That GPS screenshot is one of the longer rides so far. More elevation, less distance.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

Double post because the forum was acting flaky. Instead of seeing my post, I got a web message apparently from the web host to try again later. Not the first time.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

PierreR said:


> Take the stock Bafang chainring and pitch it off a bridge so you are not temped to use it. Get yourself the Liekie or the Luna offset replacement and be done with it.


Are you sure? I got my motor today and the chainring in the box exceeded my expectations.

I was expecting a stamped steel 42T like the 46T rings, not so. It has an aluminum spider with a machined steel narrow-wide ring. So other than steel, unlike the aluminum rings of Lekkie and Luna I'm expecting the narrow-wide to perform equally well to the high priced spread. Time will tell. Need to go 42 front to 32 rear to test the chain retention.

Need to do some soldering first, got 3-male gold plated connectors, battery to motor, with no matching female connectors. Only two wires, so not a huge project.


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Old & Slow said:


> Are you sure? I got my motor today and the chainring in the box exceeded my expectations.


I am unfamiliar with any kind of a chainring like you are describing from Bafang.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

"1000 words"









Here's the chainline, 42T to 32T:


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Your 42/32 doesn't really reach what I call granny range. At a minimum, especially looking at your local terrain, you should have a 42/42 for a 1:1 or 26" gear and right now your combo is more like a 34" ratio. Front chainring/rear chain ring x wheel diameter is an easy way to figure gear ratio btw. 

I have 29" wheels on my bike with a 42/50 and that calcs out to a little less than a 25" gear. But my motor is not as high powered as yours either....but I do have some steep stuff that I need it on.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

Bigwheel said:


> Your 42/32 doesn't really reach what I call granny range.


Nor to I. The photo was posted to show the extreme (to me) kink in the chainline. The Shimano XTR derailleur M960 has a max of 34T so in order to go to 42 or 50 rear I'd have to replace it. Besides, you're using a less torquey motor. Need to do some test rides before I replace anything.

I rode a 10% grade for 200 yards at PAS 2 of 5 and the chain didn't come off, that's good.

Thanks for the post.


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

It is possible to keep your derailleur, the XTR M960 is a good candidate as it is a long cage to start with, and use a Wolf Link https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/products/roadlink'

It is what I use with my older SRAM derailleur to allow for using a larger low gear. Switched to it when I got a 46t and now allows for using a 50t although the b tension screw is at it's max. For $22 it is alot cheaper than a new derailleur for sure.

As far as your chainline it still doesn't look optimal but probably as good as you are going to get and the narrow/wide chainring will certainly help. If you look back to my post above I added a pic of the chainline I have after installing the 50t and it isn't as bad as yours. There is no more clearance available at the chain stay for the ring to be any closer so it is the best I am going to get on this bike.

I also gauge chainline more with the chain in the middle gear and see how straight it is as that sets the tone for both low and high gear chain line.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

I looked at your photos in #37 above, none show the same bottom perspective. The derailleur on the bottom chainline creates and abnormal kink in order to feed the cassette a straight chain. Look and my photo again and you can see both the bottom and top chainlines. The top is more gradual.

What do you think of this 9-speed 11-50T, it has the drop link included:
https://smile.amazon.com/BOLANY-8-9...&sprefix=wolftooth+road+,aps,1183&sr=8-8&th=1


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

That is a good deal on the complete package of all you'll need. Except you will probably need to add a few links to your chain or get another one. Maybe count your current chain links and add at least 4 more for the conversion.

I'll try and get a pic of mine compared to yours in the same position and add it to my post.


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Old & Slow said:


> I looked at your photos in #37 above, none show the same bottom perspective. The derailleur on the bottom chainline creates and abnormal kink in order to feed the cassette a straight chain. Look and my photo again and you can see both the bottom and top chainlines. The top is more gradual.
> 
> What do you think of this 9-speed 11-50T, it has the drop link included:
> https://smile.amazon.com/BOLANY-8-9...&sprefix=wolftooth+road+,aps,1183&sr=8-8&th=1


Ahh Yes, The extreme chainline is caused by the design of the Stock Chainring. The Liekie Bling Ring or the Luna ring 42 tooth corrects the chainline.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

Bigwheel said:


> That is a good deal on the complete package of all you'll need. Except you will probably need to add a few links to your chain or get another one. Maybe count your current chain links and add at least 4 more for the conversion.


Perhaps time for a new chain.

Just did a 3-mile loop, roughly 350 ft elevation gain, in 8 or 9 with no chain problems. Was struck by how quiet the bafang was. Never heard the motor over the tires. The hub motor Lectric was singing constantly under load.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

Here's a pic of the chainline in the middle, gear 5. A little bend but not nearly as kinked as gear 9.









If I got that 11-50T, I'd be closer to the middle most of the time. Using the 50T for extreme grades.


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

PierreR said:


> Ahh Yes, The extreme chainline is caused by the design of the Stock Chainring. The Liekie Bling Ring or the Luna ring 42 tooth corrects the chainline.


Can you provide a photo of the Luna/Lekkie 42T chainline in the largest rear gear for comparison? My suspicion is the inward offset is no more than the width of the chain. Hope I'm wrong.

Thanks


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Old & Slow said:


> Can you provide a photo of the Luna/Lekkie 42T chainline in the largest rear gear for comparison? My suspicion is the inward offset is no more than the width of the chain. Hope I'm wrong.
> 
> Thanks


I will try, I am not very good at pictures but I can tell you that the Liekie ring will nearly cover all the black you see between the frame and your current chainring. The Liekie rings sets just inside your frame.


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

With the 42 tooth Liekie ring matted to my BBSHD, I have more than 10k miles on it and it still runs perfect. My 11 speed chains are lasting between 2k and 3k miles before replacement. the Liekie ring provides a near perfect chainline.


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

This is a Lekkie ring, pretty obvious how much more offset it has over yours


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

Bigwheel said:


> I use TSDZ2 motors and the off set type rings are made for BBSHD so you won't have to go through the steps I did, drill new holes and figure out spacers, to mount one to the stock spider but I couldn't get it any closer to the housing for sure.


That is indeed impressive. I speculated the offset was less than a chain width, your photo suggests more like 3-chain widths . . . a significant difference. That's 3 cogs on the cassette or more?

So why are you using TSDZ2 motors? Is their a cost difference? Do they preform differently? You must like them or you'd use Bafang.

Should be noted . . . you like dirt.


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Prime reason I use the TSDZ2 is the torque sensing PAS vs cadence sensing of the Bafang kits and has a throttle which I find useful for starting off and as a walk assist. Decent enough power output for my needs and gets me where I want to go at a price I can live with.









As far as the dirt goes let's just say I don't spend alot of time toothbrushing my bikes. I get lots of miles out of a drivetrain though


----------



## Old & Slow (May 3, 2020)

Awesome!!! I'm envious, tried to do an above the timber ride in July, got to the trailhead and it was posted "No Bikes".



Bigwheel said:


>


So where is this pass? I'd guess not Colorado, because even a these elevations some grass is growing. Totally barren in your photo.


----------

