# Charlie Cunningham's 1986 Indian - S/N CBC



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Charlie built this bike for himself around 1986 as a mid-length Indian, with shorter than normal stays. It was an unusual frame setup in that it got a tall 7" headtube with the intention from the start that the bike would be used with drop handlebars, thus minimizing the height of the stem. Being a personal bike for someone that is a finesse rider, the frame was built with a lightweight tube set normally found on the Cunningham race bikes. It is likely the only bike Charlie ever set up for himself with WTB/Specialized RM-2 drop bars, as he preferred bars with a lot less flare.

This bike appears to have been used in some promotional material.









Charlie did use this bike a fair amount for extended riding, and in fact took a trip or two to Baja using the bike. Our good friend Mike of Black Mountain Cycles was on such a trip and snapped this photo of Charlie near Laguna Hansen in the Sierra Juarez mountains.









The bike was advertised in the 1989 Cunningham Infopac as being for sale on page 25.

1989 Infopac at Cunninghambikes.com

The bike had several owners over the years and did not accumulate a lot of miles. I am the fourth owner of the bike since Charlie sold it. Believe it or not, the bike appeared briefly on eBay back in the early 2000's, but many of us didn't know what we were looking at and the auction ended early. Many of you will recognize this bike as being on the 43bikes.com website for many years.

The bike shows a lot of personal details and special modifications, both large (prototype shifters) and small (bolt heads trimmed for clearance). The frame features finish work not found on customer bikes. Those special features that I have found include,

1.	Lightweight tubeset, reserved for team bikes and personal bikes
2.	7 inch headtube specifically for short LD and drop bars
3.	Mid-length Indian geometry, evolving toward Racer geometry
4.	Short rise LD stem
5.	Extensive shaping and smoothing of headtube gussets
6.	Water bottle mount on bottom of downtube
7.	Custom relief work and inlay on the rear dropouts
8.	Brake lever reach shortened with welded tabs
9.	Brake lever pivots drilled out
10.	Brake lever green strain relief for cable housing
11.	Prototype shifter Multi-Mounts
12.	Modified thumbshifter levers with welded tab and Bondo shaping
13.	Suntour shifter mounts shortened, on the bar side with internal filing
14.	Perhaps his only bike with RM-2 bars, "to support the product."
15.	Flare reduced on the RM-2 bar
16.	Ends of RM-2 bar reduced
17.	Edco Competition headset drilled for grease ports
18.	Alignment arrows on upper cup, not sure why
19.	Roller end of from brake arms bent to align with cam
20.	Front cam profile modified
21.	Brake pad hardware on front trimmed for extra clearance
22.	Brake pad eye bolts drilled out to save weight
23.	Front Slo-Release has added aluminum washer on left side, unknown reason
24.	Bottom bracket grease port on top of the shell
25.	Rear derailleur cable fixing bolt slotted
26.	Rear derailleur cable doubled back under fixing bolt
27.	Front derailleur cage cut, shortened, and welded
28.	External coil spring added to front derailleur cable
29.	Front derailleur cable fixing bolt slotted
30.	Shark fin trimmed and bonded to chainstay
31.	"New Chain 12-24-88" written on bottom of chainstay
32.	Nylon plug added to top of fork steerer inside stem
33.	Toe straps wired to pedals (not his personal pedals)
34.	Inside of right crankarm and pedal spindle ground down for clearance
35.	Different BB spindles used to optimize chainline for triple with 119 going to 116 mm
36.	Custom Suntour Super-7 12-32 cogset
37.	Tooth profiling on cogset: alternate teeth lowered, shark toothprofile
38.	Chainrings profiled with lowered sections of teeth
39.	44T large chainring made from reversing and counter-boring a road chainring
40.	Reversed and counterbored middle chainring
41.	Trimmed chainring bolts
42.	Trimmed granny chainring bolts
43.	Custom (prototype?) rear brake booster
44.	Custom rear cam profile
45.	Bent cam plate to optimize cable pull
46.	Rubber boot seal for lower headset cup (removed)


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

*Detail Photos*


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

*More Details*


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

*And More Details*

















"new chain 12 / 24 / 88"


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

*Better Image Quality*

Not so happy with the compressed image quality, so here is better resolution.


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

*The Brake Booster*


----------



## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

Crude or refined? Whatever--I love it.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Drool.


----------



## misterdangerpants (Oct 10, 2007)

Excellent thread and fantastic bike. Really digging the shorter stays.


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Great detail photo's. Awesome write up on a beautiful bike......Thanks T....


----------



## datasurfer (Nov 24, 2006)

Greatest post ever. Super rich in detail, but I couldn't tear my eyes away. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## xy9ine (Feb 2, 2005)

amazing. love the multitude of subtle custom tweaks. bespoke.


----------



## flyingcloud (Jul 7, 2012)

Awesome...that is a true work of art! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Guest (Jul 17, 2012)

What a beautiful bike, and such rich history. You are one lucky fella.

wanted Specialized X 26 Rim


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Look at all the big beautiful pictures! I love it, I love it, I love it! It may even be nicer than a Schwinn MOS but I'm undecided at the moment. And a personal Ham to boot! Goodness gracious, I can't imagine a greater treasure. 

jjjusstt teasing you good buddy. 

Seriously, I love it but then again, I love everything that CC has done except the cross through the front triangle cable routing and the steering limiter.

p.s. can you not move your pictures around so I'm not saddened at a later time when I go back to your old threads just to find empty picture frames?


----------



## blilrat (Oct 27, 2011)

That's really incredible. You'll keep yourself busy pondering the reason behind all those tweaks.


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Thanks everyone and GOB. Just trying to add good content and hopefully not wasting bandwidth in the process.



girlonbike said:


> I love everything that CC has done except the cross through the front triangle cable routing and the steering limiter.


Ha ha, that cable routing. Now that sound nutty. 

And then there is his special bike with the 5/8" tubular brace that goes from the middle of the DT to the middle of the right chainstay...


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

blilrat said:


> You'll keep yourself busy pondering the reason behind all those tweaks.


Exactly. Some are obvious, some not so much. At first I thought the front rollercam arm was damaged, only to realize that the other side is the same way. That had me shaking my head for a while.


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

DoubleCentury said:


> Just trying to add good content and hopefully not wasting bandwidth in the process.


Quite honestly, you've never ever been guilty of that.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Thats kinda cool...if you're into that sort of thing.


----------



## trailville (Jul 24, 2006)

For all the thought and work and personalization of that bike, he didn't seem to hold on to it that long. Do you think it's one of those cases where you get exactly what you thought you wanted only to find you don't really like riding it?


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

trailville said:


> For all the thought and work and personalization of that bike, he didn't seem to hold on to it that long. Do you think it's one of those cases where you get exactly what you thought you wanted only to find you don't really like riding it?


Charlie has said that "Indians" are good for extended riding, like the multi-day trips to Baja. But as many people know, he doesn't stray far from Marin very often, and his favorite trails are narrow and twisty. For that the Racer geometry has become his preference, and in fact this bike was heading in that direction with the "mid-length" stays.

He sold this bike in 1991, so he had it for 5 years.


----------



## Guest (Jul 17, 2012)

Rumpfy said:


> Thats kinda cool...if you're into that sort of thing.


I'm always open to that sort of thing 

Wanted Specialized 36 hole X 26 rim

Thanks anyway GOB, just not enough holes.


----------



## Austin Dave (Jul 7, 2010)

Wow. What a treat. Thanks for posting as always, DC.


----------



## trailville (Jul 24, 2006)

DoubleCentury said:


> He sold this bike in 1991, so he had it for 5 years.


I was referring to him having it up for sale already in 89. That seemed really soon for a bike that was so specific. I'm sure he knows he can have more than one bike


----------



## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

trailville said:


> For all the thought and work and personalization of that bike...





trailville said:


> ...That seemed really soon for a bike that was so specific....


Most all of Charlie's personal bikes had/have this kind of "personalization". This one isn't particularly extreme in that regard. Well, it IS extreme -- just not in comparison to the rest of the motor(less) pool.

DC: Great pics and great writeup as always. Congrats on the new addition.


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

trailville said:


> I was referring to him having it up for sale already in 89.


Good point. I don't have a complete answer, and it's mostly been conjecture even on his part. I suppose there might have been a piece of shop equipment that he wanted to buy and this bike being fairly new had better curb appeal. Just a guess.


----------



## nightshade_rider (Apr 18, 2007)

DoubleCentury said:


> Exactly. Some are obvious, some not so much. At first I thought the front rollercam arm was damaged, only to realize that the other side is the same way. That had me shaking my head for a while.


Fantastic bike and thread DC!

Not sure if its the angle of the photo but the front rollercam arm tweak looks like it skewed the angle between the pull of the cam and roller. Leaving the arms straight and repositioning the arms on the brass pivot bushings might have been a better solution? Would that have caused other clearance issues?

The rear rollercam bushings look like they are seated at the extreme position (necessitating the bend in the cam) but the front...?

Hopefully 43bikes came down from the firm $49,050 asking price (I told him the bike was not worth a penny more than $43,000)! 

Thanks again for the great writeup and photos. Enjoy!


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

nightshade_rider said:


> Not sure if its the angle of the photo but the front rollercam arm tweak looks like it skewed the angle between the pull of the cam and roller. Leaving the arms straight and repositioning the arms on the brass pivot bushings might have been a better solution? Would that have caused other clearance issues?
> 
> Hopefully 43bikes came down from the firm $49,050 asking price (I told him the bike was not worth a penny more than $43,000)!


I would agree with your observations. I think it is likely that various adjustments were made over the years. For example the stem in the promotional literature is silver, although the cable line looks about the same. If anything I would say the bosses are at the wrong angle...

Putting values on bikes, I don't know...


----------



## trailville (Jul 24, 2006)

DoubleCentury said:


> Good point. I don't have a complete answer, and it's mostly been conjecture even on his part. I suppose there might have been a piece of shop equipment that he wanted to buy and this bike being fairly new had better curb appeal. Just a guess.


I just mentioned because that would be my biggest fear if I ever got a truly custom frame built (doubt I ever will). You get exactly what you asked for , go out for a ride, and it just ain't doin for you. I ordered and built up a new frame (not custom) some years back for a specific purpose. Not my first build and I felt pretty confident I knew what I was doing. Never liked the ride of that bike. I still have it and have made various adjustments over the years improving things, but it's still a bit of a disappointment and I'm not exactly sure why.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

$4.100 ... THEN!
that's a lot of cash.


----------



## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

DoubleCentury said:


> this bike being fairly new had better curb appeal.


It certainly has that, very cool pics DC! CBC has to be one of the coolest hams along with the proto bike and Otto so it's nice to know it's in good hands. It also looks like you've done a good job of documenting the history which is cool to see! Thanks for sharing the photos and info :thumbsup:


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

*"Wait, You Actually Rode It?"*


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Nice to see it on dirt. Great pix!


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Is it true Rumpfy is outlaw racing it on Repack tomorrow?


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

colker1 said:


> Is it true Rumpfy is outlaw racing it on Repack tomorrow?


Ugh, not till I heal. But then OK!


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Thrilled to see it being ridden DC! I'd have been more upset had you not.

Now....can you compare and contrast the two drop bar C'Hams you have in terms of ride and performance? Thanks.


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Now....can you compare and contrast the two drop bar C'Hams you have in terms of ride and performance? Thanks.


Um, both are worth keeping.

I might need some more ride time. This bike is very well behaved. The drop bars have been modified and set up such that there is only one usable hand position.

The 8C racer is a rocket for sure and easy to throw around because of the smaller size.

Sorry, that's not much to go on, yet.


----------



## Major (Jul 8, 2008)

Not much more to add to what others have said - great, great bike!


----------



## Guest (Aug 12, 2012)

What are the odds of you bringing this beauty next time you come to Nor Cal for a ride?
Also, thank your lovely wife for pacing us up those climbs:thumbsup:


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

shawnw said:


> What are the odds of you bringing this beauty next time you come to Nor Cal for a ride?
> Also, thank your lovely wife for pacing us up those climbs:thumbsup:


Haha, he doesn't have to. There's a line of people ready to loan him their Ham instead!


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

what's the deal w/ cassette and rear derr.? custom all over.


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

colker1 said:


> what's the deal w/ cassette and rear derr.? custom all over.


Not that much going on with the RD, but the freewheel and chainrings got the full tooth profile treatment for faster shifting.



shawnw said:


> What are the odds of you bringing this beauty next time you come to Nor Cal for a ride?
> Also, thank your lovely wife for pacing us up those climbs:thumbsup:


It would a pleasant surprise to meet you as well, and my wife was glad to have the company. Overall, we were really thrilled to fit in all of those activities in a 24 hours span.

Given the number of Hams in your neck of the woods, it's not likely that this bike would make that trip out west. But you never know.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

DoubleCentury said:


> Not that much going on with the RD, but the freewheel and chainrings got the full tooth profile treatment for faster shifting.
> 
> .


I see a big cog back there and a shimano 600 short cage.. is it?


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

colker1 said:


> I see a big cog back there and a shimano 600 short cage.. is it?


That's right. It works, at the expense of slack in the small-small combination.


----------

