# Kid specific Wheel Build for 40lb rider NEED HELP



## Jordan300 (Jul 26, 2008)

So I just got the Rims powdercoated and I'd like to lace up the wheels. I've got 32h Hubs and 32h rims. But I'd like to use less spokes. Possibly 16 spokes. This would save 1/2 pound per wheel. Does anyone have a lace pattern?

Or wanna talk me out of it?


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

I have just done this exact thing. You've got two options - skip every second hole in rim and hub or use a paired lacing approach. I like the paired lacing as it means the spokes go into the rim at the angle the rim holes expect.

I've got all the info on paired lacing and how to do the spoke calculations here. The 24" wheel I built with 16 ti spokes ended up weighing 595g.


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

Looks great Tig. Using high end Ti spokes but only need 16 so the cost is half - very nice.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

For a non-disk front wheel you can also do radial lacing instead of crossed. I wouldn't hesitate to use 16 spokes on a 20" wheel for a kids bike, should hold up fine. 

One other interesting lacing pattern that works well for 32 spoke hubs/rims is to lace them with 24 spokes in a crows-foot pattern, each side has 4 clusters of three spokes, two crossed and one radial with every 4th rim/hub hole empty. 

Another possibility for the rear is to use all 16 spokes crossed on the drive side, counter-balanced by 8 radial spokes on the non-drive side for a total of 24 spokes. It is probably overkill but builds a fairly strong wheel with the tension fairly equal between both sides since each NDS spoke gets tensioned twice as much as usual for the NDS.


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Replacing 32 2.0mm/14g straight gauge spokes with 16 Ti 2.0mm spokes saved a bit over 150g on one wheel alone. It's a pity I don't have any more of those Ti spokes. I picked up a packet of 18 on clearance for $2 a spoke. I would have bought more but that was the last packet available. They were 297mm long so I shortened them.

As GrayJay says, radial lacing for non disk wheels is good too, but you need to make sure that the hub flanges can take the strain. In a 2x or higher wheel, spoke pull across the circumference of the hub flange, when radial laced the pull directly away from the hub. With hubs not meant for radial lacing, this can lead to the flange breaking or the hub stretching and bearings becoming sloppy. Your average kid's bike front hub will probably be of fairly low quality, so exercise a fair degree of caution when doing any lacing pattern that involves a radial component (eg. this includes crows-foot).

Crows-foot is a cool pattern as well, but there are a couple of small gotchas. Firstly, you may need up to 4 different length spokes because for each side you have both a radial (shorter) spoke and the crossed (longer spokes). For a disc wheel, each side will probably require different lengths spokes, so you're faced with ordering 4 lengths. Secondly, there's the radial spoking/hub flange issue.


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## Jordan300 (Jul 26, 2008)

Wow, thanks for the great responses. Tig, I wanna do exactly what you pictured. What spoke length Calculator do you use? 

I figured out that the Rim ERD is 389mm.
Hubs are front and rear disc Shimano M525's

It looks like with a 3 cross pattern if found the Rear NDS would take 187mm and DS 185mm.
The Front would take NDS 185mm and DS 187mm

So how do I convert that to the 16 spoke pattern?


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

I use the Spocalc spreadsheet. Major advantage is that it allows you to save the parameters for a particular set of wheels for future reference, something you don't get with the online calculators. - Spocalc, by Damon Rinard. A free Excel spoke length calculator.

For each hub you need to measure (or lookup) the width from center to left flange and right flange, and the left and right flange diameters at the spoke holes. Put this data into spocalc with 16 for the total number of spokes and either 1.25 for a 1x pattern or 2.25 for a 2x pattern. Note, 1.25x for 16 spokes gives you about the same spoke angles as 2x for 32 spokes. The fewer spokes you have, the lower the cross number you can get away with. Either 1.25x or 2.25x should work for you, but if the hub flanges are large and the rim ERD small then 1.25x may be the only workable option.

When lacing the wheel, make sure the "paired" spokes start at adjacent holes in a flange and go away from each other (see my close up pics).


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## Jordan300 (Jul 26, 2008)

This is great. So I got 180.9 179.2 179.8 181.4 for the four lengths. Would I be ok buying a box 180's? Or would you recommend a combination?


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

You likely could build everything with 180mm length if you are buying a box instead of individual spokes. If any of them are a bit long and stick up above the spoke nipple then you can grind the protruding spoke down with a dremmel. It is more problematic to deal with spokes that are too short when wheelbuilding.


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

+1. A box of 180mm's should do the trick.


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Caution! I just attempted a 2x pair spoke 24" rear wheel (so 2.25 fractional cross) with 16 spokes (out of 32) and its all but impossible. The spokes are interfering at the hub flange and the entry angles on the rim are far from satisfactory. Build 1x (1.25x fractional build).


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## Jordan300 (Jul 26, 2008)

I am using 20" rims. Currently searching for some spokes. any recommendations?


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Straight gauge spokes in that length should be available from the BMX guys like Dan's Comp. For a lighter weight option, you may be able to get some 15g (1.8mm) straight gauge spokes. I think wheelsmith make some.


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## Jordan300 (Jul 26, 2008)

Tig, do you have any more pics of your wheel build. I am struggling a bit.


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

I can take some more pics from some different angles. What do you need exactly and what spoke pattern did you go with? 16 spoke paired?


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## Jordan300 (Jul 26, 2008)

OK I that's perfect Thanks. I did that exact pattern. 16 spokes on a 32hole rim/hub. So I laced them but do I need to put the inner spoke over top of the outside spoke when they cross?


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

I've updated my article on paired lacing with the step-by-step way I go about it. As for interlacing the spokes, it depends. Take a look down the bottom of the article and there are two example pics of interlaced and non-interlaced. I'd interlace if you can, but it probably doesn't matter unless you need the clearance. If its too hard to interlace then don't.


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## Jordan300 (Jul 26, 2008)

Wow, thanks so much. I would have been lost without this. This is great. I interlaced a few and the spokes really have to bend around each other so I probably won't interlace them.

This has been so good. Thanks Thanks Thanks.


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

No worries. That was the first set of paired spoke wheels that I have done. I was staggered by the lack of information on the internet about how to do it. There were only throw-away lines here and there about what to do and most of that was in relation to paired spoke rims and hubs (as opposed to taking a paired spoke approach to reducing spoke numbers using non-paired spoke hubs and rims). I even experimented with a half radial / half 1x 18 spoke build with 36 hole components (thanks to GrayJay for the idea behind this) before deciding on the paired lacing for the final wheelset.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

half radial / half 1x 18 lacing probably works best on a rear wheel where there is otherwise more side-to-side imbalance of the spoke tension due to the more severe dish found on rear wheels, this pattern avoids having the radial NDS spokes so loose in comparison to the dished dive side spokes. 
I also like the idea of using 36 spoke hubs/rims laced as a 12 spoke kids wheel. I did my 12 spoke as a radial front rim brake wheel but it might also work to 1X the spokes into three pairs per side, I just have not checked to make sure that the spoke/rim angle is not excessively acute. When I did my radial 24" wheel, I lucked out and found that the spokes from a 20" (406mm BSD) 3X wheel were the perfect length for radial lacing with a 24" rim, saved having to order short spokes.


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## Jordan300 (Jul 26, 2008)

I got them pretty much done. I having a little trouble getting them True. I might have to have my LBS tension and true them for me.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

GrayJay said:


> I also like the idea of using 36 spoke hubs/rims laced as a 12 spoke kids wheel. I did my 12 spoke as a radial front rim brake wheel but it might also work to 1X the spokes into three pairs per side, I just have not checked to make sure that the spoke/rim angle is not excessively acute.











Answering my own question posed above, I tried re-lacing a 36 hole, 20" wheel to 12 spoke 1x pattern. Rather than source new shorter spokes for a radial pattern, I just re-used the original spokes from the 36 spoke 3x pattern. To go from 36 to 12 spokes, you remove 2/3 of the spokes and it is also necessary to widen each of the 1x crossed pairs by moving each remaining spoke over by 2 rim holes, so there are 5 holes between each 1x pair instead of just one hole (from the other side). I also took the opportunity to upgrade from the original junky steel body nutted hub to an aluminum quick release hub with smoother bearings. Weight for the wheel went from 807gr (330gr alex singlewall rim), 36 spokes and steel hub) down to 555gr (without QR skewer), still a nice savings of nearly 200gr rotational weight once the skewer weight is added back in. 
The wider spoke crossing pairs might normally need slightly longer spokes, original spokes might be slightly too short if orginal hub were re-used but my replacement hub had a slightly larger spoke circle hole diameter (couple mm) so the re-used spokes were perfect length.

As in Tig's wheel, the crossing location for each pair was too close to the hub flange to try interlacing the paired spokes.

Resulting 12 spoke wheel seems plenty strong for the abuse my 60 lbd daughter will give it. Nice thing about 12 spokes on 36 holes is that the side-to-side orientation of the spokes in the rim holes is correct (unlike an unpaired 18 spoke on 36 hole wheel).


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## Jordan300 (Jul 26, 2008)

Just for reference.
Finished product.

Just got some brand new IRC Siren race tires.
20x1.75 Rear 12oz
20z2.125 Front 15.5oz


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## Venturewest (Jul 13, 2007)

TigWorld said:


> I have just done this exact thing. You've got two options - skip every second hole in rim and hub or use a paired lacing approach. I like the paired lacing as it means the spokes go into the rim at the angle the rim holes expect.
> 
> I've got all the info on paired lacing and how to do the spoke calculations here. The 24" wheel I built with 16 ti spokes ended up weighing 595g.


I have a question for you. I am trying to do this same thing with a 24 Hole front hub. I figured 16 hole with the 24 hole would be no problem, but as I was messing with initial lacing tonight with my old spokes, I ran into a possible problem.

You were able to skip 2 holes, every 2 holes, but the since there are only 12H per side on my hub, I will only be able to have one blank hole for every 2 holes that are spoked. Is there a way to account for this in spocalc? Do you think it will even affect the spoke length?

If it is not a problem, how do I decide which hole to skip as I start to lace according to your article?

Thanks!


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Unfortunately, the paired hole spoke lacing only works when you're halving the number of spokes. It's primary benefit is matching the spoke hole drilling in the rim with the spoke angle coming from the hub.

To work out what's possible, you need to think about how many degrees your hub holes are apart and how this compares to the rim's holes.

24h hub has a spoke hole every 360/24 = 15 degrees
32h rim has a spoke hole every 360/32 = 11.25 degrees

My gut feel is that its do-able, but you may need as many as 4 different spoke lengths to get it to work, and how you calculate those lengths is beyond me on a Friday afternoon.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

So in this case using 16 holes of a 24 hole hub along with a 32 hole rim and paired lacing, then every-other spoke on each side (all the leading spokes or all the trailing spokes) would exactly synch with a rim hole, and the other leading or trialing hub holes used on that flange would be offset from the rim hole used by 7.5 degrees. On a crossed spoke pattern, I think this imballance in the hub hole alignment would average out so that all of the hub holes are offset from the rim holes by 3.75 degrees and thus all the spokes on each side of the wheel would be same length. Different length spokes should only be needed for each side if the hub flanges are different diameter. The 3.75 degree offset between the hub and rim holes probably is not enough to need longer spokes, but might be safe to go +1mm over the length calculated for a 16 paired spoke wheel using 32 hole hub?


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## Venturewest (Jul 13, 2007)

*Here is my 16 Hole Paired Lacing 1X.*

View attachment 872171








Thanks TigWorld.

If I can do this, anyone can do this.


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## Jordan300 (Jul 26, 2008)

YES! That looks badass


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

Nice touch with the black/white spokes, came out great.

I was rummaging through local bike co-op last week and they were throwing out a cheap set of 24" wheels (steel nutted hubs packed with gravel instead of ball bearings, 36 spokes). I couldn't resist rescuing the free wheelset to tinker with and picked up a set of aluminum 36 hole hubs for the re-build for $5 ea.








I was not expecting much from this wheel but made the exciting find once I unlaced it that the rim has a low weight of 373gr for a 24mm wide x 507mm (24") MTB rim. This is around 25gr lighter than the 400gr singlewall Alex rim I last used and around 40-50 grams lighter than the other 24" rim choices on Tig's FAQ FAQLoad - Lightweight 24" rims. I have not found any other 24" MTB rim with a lower listed weight. 
This rim has a faint logo stamped in the rim that looks a bit like a stylized "HF" but I dont know who the manufacturer actually is. Finish is raw brushed aluminum, no anodizing.








I re-laced the 36 spokes using just 12 spokes in a 1x pattern. Nice thing about a 36 to 12 spoke build is that the spokes are all evenly spaced around the rim and the rim holes used are properly oriented toward the correct hub flange. Unsupported rim span between two spokes is actually slightly less than that needed for a paired 16 spoke lacing of a 32 hole rim. I used a nice smooth 148gr aluminum shell suntour QR hub on this front wheel. Each same side spoke crossing pair is laced with 5 of the 36 rim holes between the spoke pair, the 3rd middle hole of these 5 is occupied by a spoke from opposite side of the wheel so there are 2 unused rim holes between each occupied rim hole. I did not interlace the 2 spokes to actually cross over each other as the crossing is so close to the hub it would create a sharp bend in the spokes. This pattern would normally require longer spokes (maybe equivalent to a 5x pattern??) but if you are rebuilding on same hub or simply transferring the rim and 12 spokes to another hub of same flange diameter, the original length (3x pattern) spokes can be re-used if you adjust for the spoke the length at the hub by lacing with only 2 empty hub spoke holes between each crossed pair (instead of 4 hub holes between each crossed pair as is normal for 3X pattern).








Final wheel weight (less skewer) was exactly 599gr for a total cash outlay of $5 for the co-op sourced hub. Smashed the 600gr barrier and came in 1gr lower than Tig's 24" aeroheat front build using 16 spokes and lightweight hubs! (Admittedly, more spokes (16) and a heavier rim will make a stronger wheel but I suspect that my wheel build is still overkill strong for an 8-year old).
FAQLoad - SuperLight 79 / Velocity Aeroheat 24" front wheel 
And just 4gr more than Tig's Aeroheat + titanium spoke build;
FAQLoad - Circus Monkey, Marwi Ti, Velocity Aeroheat 24" Front Wheel


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Wow! Good to see you guys stepping it up on the wheel-building front.

Venturewest - the white/black spokes look killer.

GrayJay - you just can't beat a sub 600g wheel for $5. That Ti/Circus Monkey/Aeroheat wheel cost 20x that to build.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

I did a bit of daydreaming, pondering just how lightweight of a 24" kids wheel it might be possible to build. Chinese carbon rim vendors are already currently producing rims for 406mm and 451mm 20" wheel sizes (BMX racing) and of course also 559mm 26" MTB clinchers. Interpolating from the weight of the available sizes, it should be entirely possible to manufacture a 300gr carbon rim in 507mm 24" MTB size, it just does not look like there is yet any available source for carbon 24" MTB rims. Taking some hope from the availability of 20" wheel size carbon rims and proliferation of Chinese rim manufacturers, it might not be too crazy to think that such a wheel might be available in the near future. Probably would be easily available in two weeks time for anyone willing to place a custom order for 1000 rims! Match the hypothetical 300gr rim with a 66gr ultra-light road hub ( UltraLight Front Road Hub - 66 grams )and 12x butted radial spokes with alloy nipples (should weigh around 60gr), it would then be possible to build a front 24" kids MTB wheel weighing 426gr around a 50% weight reduction over typical 36 spoke nutted steel hub wheel that most mid-grade kids bikes come with.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

To keep this wheelbuild thread rolling along, I would refere to thread http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/lightest-24-kids-mountain-bike-910719.html#post11166571 which brought to my attention that stans now has 24" crest tubless aluminim rims available that weights a mere 310gr, available in 24,28,32 spoke drilling.


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## primooz (May 20, 2010)

GrayJay said:


> View attachment 860589
> 
> 
> Answering my own question posed above, I tried re-lacing a 36 hole, 20" wheel to 12 spoke 1x pattern. Rather than source new shorter spokes for a radial pattern, I just re-used the original spokes from the 36 spoke 3x pattern. To go from 36 to 12 spokes, you remove 2/3 of the spokes and it is also necessary to widen each of the 1x crossed pairs by moving each remaining spoke over by 2 rim holes, so there are 5 holes between each 1x pair instead of just one hole (from the other side). I also took the opportunity to upgrade from the original junky steel body nutted hub to an aluminum quick release hub with smoother bearings. Weight for the wheel went from 807gr (330gr alex singlewall rim), 36 spokes and steel hub) down to 555gr (without QR skewer), still a nice savings of nearly 200gr rotational weight once the skewer weight is added back in.
> ...


Can you please share more detailed pictures for lacing 12>36, specially on both sides of wheel? I am trying to do the same... first 6 spokes on one side are visible and easy to follow but I am lost on the other hub side. Probably there should be 3 holes offset but I am not sure ...
Thanks!


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

For another view, look clioserat the second photo in post # 29 above. This was a 24" wheel but exact same concept applies. Starting on left side, lace three outbound spokes in every 6th hub flange hole, then lace the three inbound spokes so that they are 3 hub flange holes away from the outboard spokes (leaving two empty hub holes between each occupied hub hole). Form three crossed spoke pairs, each with an inbound and outbound spoke and lace them to the rim such that there are 5 empty rim holes between each crossed pair of inboard/outbound spokes. The crossed pair will not actually interlace as the crossing point is too close to the hub flange, this crossing is equivalent to the second crossing of a standard 3x pattern (the first and last crossing are just missing because those spokes are gone). 
Note that the alignment of the hub holes is 10° different side-to-side, the hub spoke holes are not directly across from the holes on opposite flange. To start lacing the opposite side, find the hub hole on the right flange that is directly between two unoccupied spoke holes on the left flange. Put an inbound spoke in this right flange hole (head facing out) and lace it into the rim hole that is centered three rim holes away from the spokes on the left side. The inbound/outbound spokes and the forward/backwards angles of both sides of the wheel can either form a slightly twisted mirror image to each other or they can be identical, functionally it does not really matter but I like to shoot for mirror image where the inbound spokes for both sides (heads out) both angle in same for/aft direction instead of having two spokes from left/right side angled in same direction but with one heads in, one heads out. Once you get first spoke in the hub and angled on the right side, put in the other two inboard spokes following the spacing established on left side. If your rims are drilled to angle the spoke heads left/right, these should all be occupied by spokes going to correct side.


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## primooz (May 20, 2010)

Thanks a lot for instrucitons, it worked 
Front wheel went from 820gr -> 519 gr (without skewer). Using old Shimano XT HB-M730 hub - 139 gr.
Rim is Jalco 20 inch (340 gr).



I need to find hyperglide 36H hub now to continue with rear wheel. I only have 32H which is not usable for 36h rim.


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## Garasaki (Apr 7, 2010)

Very terriffic thread!

I'm wondering what are some good parts, particularly hub, sources?

I'm contemplating a wheel build for my daughters 20" hotrock, and I'd probably keep it single speed. I'd rather not drop $150 or so on a hub for this application...


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

Garasaki said:


> Very terriffic thread!
> 
> I'm wondering what are some good parts, particularly hub, sources?
> 
> I'm contemplating a wheel build for my daughters 20" hotrock, and I'd probably keep it single speed. I'd rather not drop $150 or so on a hub for this application...


To narrow down your hub selection, measure the frames rear dropout width and determine if you are keeping existing freewheel or upgrading to cassette system. Some kids bikes are 130mm width instead of 135mm. Re-using an old freewheel hub can work fine on kids bike to add a quick release if you are re-using stock freewheel and not interested in upgrading shifting to 8/9/10 cog casette.


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## bearback (Aug 1, 2006)

TigWorld said:


> I've updated my article on paired lacing with the step-by-step way I go about it. As for interlacing the spokes, it depends. Take a look down the bottom of the article and there are two example pics of interlaced and non-interlaced. I'd interlace if you can, but it probably doesn't matter unless you need the clearance. If its too hard to interlace then don't.


This is awesome.. I'm following step by step.. however, I think it needs correcting?


> Lacing the wheel
> The only real trick is to get two vacant spoke holes either side of the valve hole (this gives you maximum space around the valve hole for tyre inflation). You do this as follows:
> 
> hold hub so drive side is facing towards you;
> ...


At least I think thats how it needs to be for my 16" 32/16 paired spoek build that I'm doing


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## oren_hershco (Mar 11, 2006)

Wow! Great thread for techno-geeks like me! Still not relevant for my kids, but might be useful in a few years.


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## dcp_nz (Apr 16, 2009)

Anyone tried Weinmann 519 rims for a 24" build??
They seem to be readily available, not too expensive and unless I'm mistaken have a rim brake track, are around 400grams and have correct MTB ERD of 507


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## Viva Borracho (Aug 8, 2007)

I am going to be building up a 24" Fat Front wheel (Disc) with the following rim. The rim has dual spokes holes. Will this present a problem when building it with a 16 Paired Spoke lacing?


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

dcp_nz said:


> Anyone tried Weinmann 519 rims for a 24" build??
> They seem to be readily available, not too expensive and unless I'm mistaken have a rim brake track, are around 400grams and have correct MTB ERD of 507


519s should be very similar to the generic singlewall rims I built up into a 12(f), 18(r) wheelset in post #29 above, they should work fine as a low-spoke count wheel, singlewall rims work fine for kid-weight riders. No compelling reason to go to heavier, studier doublewall rims for a kid. The non-eyelet design is easy to modify (with a drillbit) to reduce the spoke angularity if you are lacing with a pattern that does not follow the intended rim drilling pattern (such as an evenly spaced 16 spokes on 32 hole or an 18 spoke on 36 hole wheel).


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

Viva Borracho said:


> I am going to be building up a 24" Fat Front wheel (Disc) with the following rim. The rim has dual spokes holes. Will this present a problem when building it with a 16 Paired Spoke lacing?


No link was included, not sure what rim... 
The primary reason to use paired lacing on a rim with 32 holes is to keep the spokes aligned in the angled holes correctly. In any case, if the fat rim was drilled with 32 spoke holes on both sides (64 holes total), then there is no compelling reason to use paired lacing. You should be able to evenly lace it with 16 spokes which will better distribute the load around the rim and makes it easier to true. Only other downside to even lacing of a 16 spoke wheel (or 18 on 36 hole) is that because the spoke holes in the two hub flanges are rotationally offset from each other by 1/32 of 360 degrees (11.25 degree), the effective spoke lengths will be slightly longer for one side, shorter for the other to accommodate the 5.625 degree wind-up on each side. For this reason, I really like building 12 spoke kid wheels on 36 hole hubs and rims, it produces a completely symmetrical wheel with all the spokes correctly oriented in the rim holes and no rotational offset at the hub.


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## dcp_nz (Apr 16, 2009)

Anyone know of a 24" 28h rim brake compatible rim - MTB ISO not BMX?
Trying to use an existing hub cos it free but only seeing 36h rim brake rims.

Sure theres the crest available in 28h but thats disc only and the frame is not.

Alternatively any suggestions for lacing 36h rim to 28h hub?? 67lb rider.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

dcp_nz said:


> Anyone know of a 24" 28h rim brake compatible rim - MTB ISO not BMX? Trying to use an existing hub cos it free but only seeing 36h rim brake rims.Alternatively any suggestions for lacing 36h rim to 28h hub?? 67lb rider.


If you use a singlewall rim, it is fairly easy to re-drill the 36H rim to evenly accommodate a different number of spokes. Comparing a 36H and 28H rim pattern, you have 4 holes in identical positions for both patterns at 12:00,3:00,6:00 & 9:00. The 36H pattern then has 8 spokes between each of these shared 4, while the 28h pattern has 6 holes between the shared 4. I have sucessfuly re-drilled rims to reduce spoke count by 4 spokes (28 to 24), in your case dropping the rim pattern by 8 spokes should be even easier because the new holes needed will be even further away from the old holes. You could build a 14-spoke radial front wheel using your 28 hole hub, start with a 36 hole hub and re-use the two spoke holes at 12:00 and 6:00, drill 6 new holes evenly spaced on both the 3:00 and 9:00 sides of the rim so you wind up with 14 evenly spaced rim holes (and 34 unused hole from the original 36h pattern). Note that a 14 spoke wheel must be radial laced, you cannot do a crossed 14 spoke wheel since each flange has an odd number of spokes (7). 
For the rear wheel, probably best option is to completely re-drill a 36H rim to 28 holes, re-use the 4 existing spoke holes at 12,3,6&9:00, then drill 6 evenly spaced holes between each of the 4 re-used holes. As a slight variant to 28H, you could also build it as a 21H rear wheel with 14 (crossed) spokes on the drive side, 7 radial spokes on the non-drive side.


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## Fat & Skinny (Mar 4, 2016)

There's some great information on this thread. 

I just bought my 6 year son a used MT60 that I'm tyring to improve and lighten up without spending much on it. Can I achieve the 16 spoke lacing with the current spokes? Is it possible to achieve the 16 spoke lacing without removing all of the spokes, just the 16 that I don't want anymore? From the pictures, I think I can do this by removing 2 spokes and leaving the next 2, removing the next 2... Am I missing anything?

Thanks for the help.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

Starting from a standard 3x 32 spoke wheel, you cannot do paired lacing by simply removing 1/2 the spokes. With paired lacing, you want two occupied rim holes, followed by two unoccupied rim holes. Problem is that if you tried to produce this pattern at the rim by simply removing spokes, you would remove all of the spokes from one direction of each crossed spoke pair and the remaining spokes would no longer be tension balanced, extremely loose. What you want to achieve instead is to remove every-other crossed spoke pair from each side of the wheel and also widen the separation at the rim between the remaining pair of crossed spokes so that the resulting wheel is still tension balanced and also minimizes the gaps between unused spoke holes on the rim. Read Tigs description of fractional lacing spoke length calculation to get the correct spoke length for paired lacing pattern.
If you started with a 3x 32 spoke rim and simply removed every-other spoke pair, this would result in a pattern at the rim of 4 occupied spoke holes, then a large gap of 4 unoccupied holes before the next set of 2 spoke pairs.

It would only work to produce a radial laced paired spoke lacing pattern removing 1/2 the spokes if you started with a 32 spoke radial laced wheel since there are no same-side crossed spoke pairs to worry about.

You probably stand a better chance of being able to re-use existing spokes if you skip the paired lacing pattern and instead lace the wheel using every-other hole on the rim, putting the spokes from one of the 2 hub flanges into rim holes oriented the wrong direction. You will still need to widen the separation between the same side spoke pairs so there are 3 rim spoke holes between each pair of crossed spokes, going from pattern of having 1 (opposite side) spoke hole between each same side crossed pair. The spokes will need to be slightly longer to do this but you can likely compensate by changing the pattern of which hub flange spoke holes are occupied by the remaining spokes in order to compensate. It you were also changing to a better hub for the re-build, then you could also select a new hub with slightly wider flange diameter to compensate for the difference in effective spoke length.



Fat & Skinny said:


> There's some great information on this thread.
> 
> I just bought my 6 year son a used MT60 that I'm tyring to improve and lighten up without spending much on it. Can I achieve the 16 spoke lacing with the current spokes? Is it possible to achieve the 16 spoke lacing without removing all of the spokes, just the 16 that I don't want anymore? From the pictures, I think I can do this by removing 2 spokes and leaving the next 2, removing the next 2... Am I missing anything?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


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## Fat & Skinny (Mar 4, 2016)

Thanks for the info GrayJay. I'm glad I asked before I started tearing into these wheels. I'm going to hold off on any spoke change until I update the hubs. 

Thanks again.


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## Gilgo (Jul 15, 2011)

I am building a bike for my 8 year old daughter. Right now I am trying to order the last things needed. My plan is pair spoked wheels with 18 spokes based on a Alienation Deviant rim. But I am not sure that I have calculated the right length.

The rim has an ERD of 489mm, the spoke holes are somewhat offset. Don't know how much. The hubs are probably going to be Deore CL hubs. HB-M615 and FH-M615 with 36 holes.

My calculations says that I can use 248mm spokes everywhere but it doesn't feel right. Can someone help me to verify or tell me i'm wrong?

Would it work if I just built it like a 36 spoke wheel but without 18 of the spokes? Could I just use "normal" length spokes then?


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

Gilgo said:


> I am building a bike for my 8 year old daughter. Right now I am trying to order the last things needed. My plan is pair spoked wheels with 18 spokes based on a Alienation Deviant rim. But I am not sure that I have calculated the right length.
> 
> The rim has an ERD of 489mm, the spoke holes are somewhat offset. Don't know how much. The hubs are probably going to be Deore CL hubs. HB-M615 and FH-M615 with 36 holes.
> 
> ...


Gilco- I do not think you can do paired lacing of a 18 spoke wheel using 36 hole rim & hub. You would have 9 spokes on each side of the wheel but 9 is an odd number so you then cannot pair those 9 spokes into same-side crossed pairs. (Paired lacing works for 32 hole parts because 1/4 of 32 is an even number producing 8 crossed spoke pairs for the wheel.) 
The entire reason to do paired lacing on a 32 hole wheel is to keep the spokes placed in rim holes with the correct offset. I suppose you could do paired lacing on a rim-brake 18 spoke front wheel if you radial lace instead of using same-side crossed pair pattern since radial lacing is insensitive to the number of spoke crosses (0).

Using 36 hole hubs and rims, you are better off building with 12 evenly spaced spokes, 6 per side laced in three crossed pairs. I think that 12 spokes rear wheel would still be fine for a kid on a 20" size, the small rim diameter moves the spoke holes closer together as compared to larger rims. If you do still want to built the rear with more than 12 spokes, instead do an 18 spoke wheel with 12 spokes drive side, 6 NDS or else do a 24 spoke wheel using all 18 of the crossed spokes on DS, 9 spokes on the NDS that are radial laced (since 9 is an odd number) or else crows foot lacing (3X3=9) on the NDS if you want to go crazy with ordering different spoke lengths.


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## Gilgo (Jul 15, 2011)

Could i lace it with 24 spokes? It is for disc brakes.

I tried to make a visual picture of my thoughts.









Pink is one side and yellow the other. It looks good but I haven't built so many wheels so I am far from an expert  I have no idea how to calculate the spoke length either.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

The pattern you show has four rim holes occupied, then 2 empty holes. I think this is essentially a standard 3X pattern with 1/3 of the crossed pairs removed.
I think it would work better to have a wider separation between the same-side crossed spoke pairs so that at the rim you have 2 occupied holes, followed by 1 empty hole (repeating). This would be easier to true if you don't have such large, uneven gaps. 
I am not sure on the spoke lengths, it might need a calculation of a fractional cross number, 36-24 Spoking, by Damon Rinard.


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## Gilgo (Jul 15, 2011)

I dont think it would work with 2 occupied 1 empty since the rim has offset holes. Maybe I should go for 12 spokes then? I looked at the rim earlier today and the distance between the spoke holes is very small. If it is laced with 12 spokes, the distance between the spokes would be 132mm if they were evenly placed.

The rim is 507x25 double wall, 415gr. So it should be a pretty sturdy rim for a 25kg kid even with 12 spokes.

If laced with 12 spokes evenly spaced, would the spoke length be the same as with 36 spoke 3 cross?

Thanks GrayJay for your support and knowledge


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## Will Fisher (May 12, 2015)

Guys, I have a question: my kids' bikes have 36h and 32h wheels. Can I just remove half of the spokes? I would do the two spokes, two empty holes, two spokes....

The wheels are already built. Is it as simple as just removing half of the spokes?

These are 20" wheels for a six year old and a four year old. Scott Spark Jr 20 and Hot Rock Pro 20. 

Thanks!


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

Will Fisher said:


> Guys, I have a question: my kids' bikes have 36h and 32h wheels. Can I just remove half of the spokes? I would do the two spokes, two empty holes, two spokes....


No, see prior explanation back in post #47 of this thread...


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## SpuTTer (Jan 19, 2004)

I finally got all my parts in and went to lace my wheels up. I did the front wheel following TigWorlds guide. I think I got it laced properly, but when going to tension, it appears that my spokes may be a little bit long, as they arent super tight, and some are starting to become flush with the nipple already. I could try to tighten using my spoke wrench instead of my nipple wrench. I'm considering ordering some eyelet washers to give myself a little extra room. Before I do much else, can you guys check my pictures and make sure that my lacing looks accurate. These are the stock rims on a Giant XTC Jr 24", I measured ERD at 495mm. Left side is 232mm spokes, 237mm on right. 722g with skewer if I can get it setup right.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

sputter- if your spokes are excessively long, you could re-lace them at the hub so that there are 4 hub spoke holes between each spoke pair and they cross 2X (instead of the 2 holes, 1X crossing you currently have). However, I somewhat doubt that your current spokes would be long enough to reach with the revised hub lacing pattern, effectively "shortens" the spokes by at least 5mm or more. You might fist try swapping the shorter set of 232mm spokes to the opposite side of the wheel keeping the same hub lacing, and use the longer 237mm set on the disk side of the wheel but with the widened hub lacing spacing to compensate for the extra length.
If you can get the existing pattern tensioned sufficiently but the spokes protrude beyond the nipples, it works OK to use a dremmel & stone grinder to shorten the spokes in-place so they don't stick out and pop the tube. You just do not want to have the spoke threaded so far into the nipple that the threads are binding. Test with an uninstalled spoke and nipple to see how far the spoke can protrude before it runs out of threads. 
Washers beneath the nipples would help a tiny bit, perhaps not enough to justify the effort unless the washers were thick.


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## SpuTTer (Jan 19, 2004)

Ok cool, I didn't want to proceed until I had more info, I may be able to tighten them enough and grind off the top, or use your other idea as a backup. I'll try to get it close to true and see how much extra spoke I having coming over the top, before I do anything dratstic. Thank you!


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## SpuTTer (Jan 19, 2004)

Update, I just built up the rear wheel too, spokes seem perfect. I guess my calculations were right. For the front, once I actually put them under tension and dished and everything, I think the spokes are going to work. There are a few, that are a hair over right now. I will grind those if needed but I went ahead and ordered some washers (which are apparently a good idea anyway) and I'm going to go ahead and add washers to the rims on both front and rear before I really cinch them down, but I have them laced and tightened pretty well right now and I think I'm going to be good! Exciting!

Front is 722g, rear is 842g, both with skewers, plus nipple weight (very light I understand). 

So I'm around 1564g, using the stock rims from the bike, so that seems pretty sweet!


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Nice job SpuTTer.


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## mindaugas (Dec 31, 2010)

*lacing*

Hi, would the simetrical 12 spoke pattern on 24" single wall rim be strong enough for a light XC use, for a 20-30kg rider? Using disc brakes. I whant to use some generic 36 single wall rim and 36h hubs. Or should I go with 18spokes and something like crowsfoot pattern.

thanks


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## LeonOfBristol (Oct 4, 2006)

This is a great thread. I'm trying to build up an awesome 24" bike on the cheap, based around a Kona Hula I rescued, and a bunch of old stuff I have lying around. Wheels are proving to be the biggest issue. I don't want to spend too much on the wheels, but I'm going disc brake on the bike (I have spare discs, don't have spare vees). The existing wheels have single wall 36h rims, which to be honest look just fine (if a little boring!). I've got a rear 36h centrelock rm66 hub. I have a 32h front DT hub kicking about. I'm wondering if I can do something there?


Anyway, enough of the preamble. I was wondering how the reduced spoke count wheels are going on the disc brake equipped bikes? I suppose I run 28h wheels 2x/3x on my cross bike, and they don't collapse, so I assume even the 12 spoke wheels are probably just fine for a 7 year old...


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## LeonOfBristol (Oct 4, 2006)

wow...disappointment sets in fast. Enthused by this thread, I took apart the junk wheels that were on the bike, and weighed a rim...494g for a single wall aluminium rim!

Looks like I'm going to be spending money anyway :-(

Thinking if I'm buying rims, I'll go 12 spoke paired on the front, re-suing my 32h dt hub, and on the back I'll go 18 (12/6). I'm thinking to go 6 spokes on the NDS, as that is normally under lower tension, so that should equalize a bit - does that make sense?


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

LoB-
12 spoke pattern is only viable from a 36 (or 24) hole rim & hub. Even if using 36 hole rims/hub I wouldnt do a 12 spokes wheel as a paired lacing, the distance along the rim between spoke pairs would be extreme, difficult to true. 12 spokes on 36 hole dont need to be paired, an even spaced pattern fits the existing holes fine. 
If you have 32 hole hubs, no comparable x(1/3) low count pattern is available since 32 is not divisible by 3. For a 32 hole front wheel, a 16 paired spoke pattern is probably the best available low spoke count choice.

Similar story for the back wheel, you cannot evenly lace 18 spokes to a 32 spoke hub and no 2:1 DS:NDS pattern will work for a 16 spoke wheel since 16 is not divisible by 3. Use same 16 spoke paired pattern (1:1 DS:NDS) or for a 2:1 pattern do a 24 spoke wheel that is 16:8.



LeonOfBristol said:


> Thinking if I'm buying rims, I'll go 12 spoke paired on the front, re-suing my 32h dt hub, and on the back I'll go 18 (12/6). I'm thinking to go 6 spokes on the NDS, as that is normally under lower tension, so that should equalize a bit - does that make sense?


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## LeonOfBristol (Oct 4, 2006)

Thanks GrayJay,

Not sure what was in my head when I was typing last night. Front will be a 16 paired on 32/32 (inspiration above!). Rear is a 36h hub, so was going to find a 36h rim and go 2:1. sorry for the confusion!

best I can find for a 32h reasonably priced rim is a Kinlin xm250. 25mm wide and deep, 440g, but I can get for under £30. Still seems very heavy, but i guess it's going to be very stiff, which is good for the low spoke count. it's proving hard to come by reasonable 24" rims here in the UK. there are the crests, but they are too pricey



GrayJay said:


> LoB-
> 12 spoke pattern is only viable from a 36 (or 24) hole rim & hub. Even if using 36 hole rims/hub I wouldnt do a 12 spokes wheel as a paired lacing, the distance along the rim between spoke pairs would be extreme, difficult to true. 12 spokes on 36 hole dont need to be paired, an even spaced pattern fits the existing holes fine.
> If you have 32 hole hubs, no comparable x(1/3) low count pattern is available since 32 is not divisible by 3. For a 32 hole front wheel, a 16 paired spoke pattern is probably the best available low spoke count choice.
> 
> Similar story for the back wheel, you cannot evenly lace 18 spokes to a 32 spoke hub and no 2:1 DS:NDS pattern will work for a 16 spoke wheel since 16 is not divisible by 3. Use same 16 spoke paired pattern (1:1 DS:NDS) or for a 2:1 pattern do a 24 spoke wheel that is 16:8.


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## gooey1 (Jun 5, 2017)

Regarding 36 hole rim options. I keep seeing 12 holes being referenced as the best option, but haven't seen a clear answer about whether this is okay on disc hubs? Personally I am building 2 mischief 20" 36 hole rims. My initial plan was to do 18 spokes on the rear, and 12 on the front, but decided to order 36 spokes so I had the option to do 18 and 18 if I felt 12 on the front was not sturdy enough. It is for a 25KG kid on a spawn Kotori 10 speed, with discs in front and the rear. If there was a viable option I think I would prefer 18 in the front and 18 at the rear for a balanced look and maybe an added sense of safety. What is the simplest safest solution here?


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

I wouldn't have any concerns about a 25kg rider on a 20", 12-spoke disk wheel. The braking force that each spoke is subject to is still less than that of a large adult rider on a 32 spoke wheel. 
As my kids grew, I eventually built a 12-spoke front wheel for their first small 26" wheel bike and it still held up fine even at their heavier weight. I even tried test riding the 12-spoke 26" wheel myself at 90+kg and while it was too laterally flimsy feeling for my weight, it stayed true and did not taco.

If you are still worried about durability, an 18 spoke 2:1 asymetrical lacing (12/6 spokes) would also work well for a 36 hole rim and hub.


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## gooey1 (Jun 5, 2017)

GrayJay said:


> I wouldn't have any concerns about a 25kg rider on a 20", 12-spoke disk wheel. The braking force that each spoke is subject to is still less than that of a large adult rider on a 32 spoke wheel.
> As my kids grew, I eventually built a 12-spoke front wheel for their first small 26" wheel bike and it still held up fine even at their heavier weight. I even tried test riding the 12-spoke 26" wheel myself at 90+kg and while it was too laterally flimsy feeling for my weight, it stayed true and did not taco.
> 
> If you are still worried about durability, an 18 spoke 2:1 asymetrical lacing (12/6 spokes) would also work well for a 36 hole rim and hub.


Thanks for this. Any chance you know where some color coded diagrams are for either of those patterns? Or videos. I am a visual learner.


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## gooey1 (Jun 5, 2017)

Egh, so unfortunately it seems I made a mistake with the spoke calculator and ordered spoke lengths for a radial wheel. Would it be asking for trouble to lace them 18 spoke radial for a 25kg rider on disc brakes? Hoping maybe it would be okay till he hits weight X and then I could re-lace them to something stronger. They are titanium spokes on an Alienation mischief rim which has an off center hole pattern. I used Kstoerz spoke calculator based on a spank 20" rim since they were nearly identical dimentions.. I'm thinking / hoping because the spokes are so short at 170mm and 172mm combined with the lightweight bike (less than 20lbs) and lightweight rider it may negate the usual torque issues.


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## gooey1 (Jun 5, 2017)

Also, I'm using a Shimano XT HB-8010 hub in the front, andXT FH-M8000 hub in the rear for what it's worth.


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## gooey1 (Jun 5, 2017)

Hearing only crickets, how about this? It is based on a 36h 1x0 cross pattern on freespoke. so 6 radial on the drive side, and 12 crossed on
the disc side. Spokes are supposed to be 172.8mm disc side and 173 on drive side. My spokes are 170mm and 172mm . Is it doable/safe?


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

Just never use all radial spoke pattern for disk brakes where the braking forces would result in extreme high spoke tension due to hub wind-up in relation to rim and so are likely to crack the hub flage, all radial lacing is only for use with rim brakes. I would suspect that having 6 trailing spokes from the crossed pairs will be fine for a kid since the trailing spoke angle allows for transmission of torque between hub and rim without spoke wind-up. 
-2mm spoke length is probably OK if you can get all the spokes/nipples threaded together and there is not an excessive amount of the spoke thread protruding from the nipple.


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## gooey1 (Jun 5, 2017)

GrayJay said:


> Just never use all radial spoke pattern for disk brakes where the braking forces would result in extreme high spoke tension due to hub wind-up in relation to rim and so are likely to crack the hub flage, all radial lacing is only for use with rim brakes. I would suspect that having 6 trailing spokes from the crossed pairs will be fine for a kid since the trailing spoke angle allows for transmission of torque between hub and rim without spoke wind-up.
> -2mm spoke length is probably OK if you can get all the spokes/nipples threaded together and there is not an excessive amount of the spoke thread protruding from the nipple.


My Sincere thanks for this. I did the front the same except with the radials spaced in between the crossed pairs for a bit more even look. I plan to change the rear to this as I think it just looks nicer and I assume will function essentially the same.. I will keep a close eye on the hubs. Thanks again!


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