# Entry Level Bike Pricing, What Am I getting For $___?



## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

*For the first time buyer. Entry Level Bike Pricing, What Am I getting For $___?*

*Disclaimer: I have my entry level bike. I lucked out with a good one I picked up at a yard sale. I recently started using it on trail rides, and my interest in learning more, lead me to this forum. I began to question why made a good first bike, and how would someone that wanted to get into off road riding, would go about choosing a good bike, and justifying the price tag. I think that the information that follows, is some of the best information that a new guy could use to get into riding, but didn't know enough to ask.*

What would be the average price for an introductory mountain bike,
What do you get in a $500 bike, that you're not getting in a $200.
What is better about a $1000 bike, over that $500 bike.
Why would someone pay more than $1000 for a first bike, when there's ones at the lower price points?
What are the advantages to a new rider, who may or may not know better, or be able to recognize the differences at the various price points? 
What benefits would the new rider be getting, that they would actually notice?

*Edit*

So a day later, and 36+ (more, since I'll end up adding comments that I think are too valuable to be lost in the pages that follow.) replies later, I have a better understanding of why the "pay more get more" advice is relevant to a first time bike buyer.

*The Basics: The beginner's dilemma*

jlmuncie really cut to the point with a few comments. One that stood out as part of why I wanted some advice, is that...



jlmuncie said:


> A new person isn't going to really be able to tell differences between a low and high end bike except for maybe weight or cosmetics.


zebrahum pointed out that my list was somewhat vague, (understandable, I didn't know enough, to know what to ask), and he offered these suggestions



zebrahum said:


> I'm just rambling on and on now, but here's what I think would be helpful to everyone:
> 
> Budget (getting the hint?)
> Where do you ride? Or where do you see yourself riding most?
> ...


*Buy cheap, vs The Higher Price Tag.*

So, why, as a first time buyer should I pay more for a higher end bike, over something I can get at Walmart, or the cheapest one at the local bike shop?



jlmuncie said:


> Lower end components often work well initially but because they are manufactured with less precise tolerances they will come out of adjustment relatively quickly and won't stand up as well to hard use.





zebrahum said:


> More expensive parts have better tolerances, are made from better materials, have better technology associated with them, and that means that you will get a better experience from them whether you're a beginner or expert. While it's true that a beginner might not immediately notice a difference between the two, in the long run inexpensive parts will show their faults. Does that mean you should avoid a bike with _______ part on it? Well no, not if your budget doesn't allow it. But if you can spend the money up front without causing a strain to your life then by all means spend the money up front.





jlmuncie said:


> Lower end bikes also use lower grades of everything, tires, seats, grips, even cables and housings are cheaper parts.


*What's the value to me as the buyer?*

Well, this makes sense. And gives a reason to pay more up front, instead of more later. A good quality bike will need less maintenance because the parts fit together better, and won't come out of adjustment as easily. There won't be as many issues that you'll need to pay a bike mechanic to work on, thus saving you time and money.

*Buy low end now, up grade later?*

Ok, so why wouldn't I just buy a cheaper bike, and upgrade it? Or even a frame, and build it myself? (Provided I was capable of making all the adjustments to cables, shifters etc myself...)



GOTA said:


> The other pricing factor to consider is the cost of upgrading. Bike manufacturers can get components cheaper than you can. That means the complete bike they sell for $500 would probably cost you $750 if you bought all the parts and put it together. That means that it's cheaper to buy a higher end bike than it will be to buy a lower pricepoint bike and then later upgrade the components.





zebrahum said:


> Bike manufacturers are able to negotiate great bulk pricing which means that the bikes they put together as (what we call) "completes" carry more value per part than if you were to buy those parts individually and add them to a frame. This value from buying a complete is why people rarely suggest that you buy a bike if your intention is to upgrade a bunch of parts on it.


*What does the "been there, done that" guys have to say?*

So what kinds advice would someone who's been through this experience have for someone just starting out, and looking for a good bike?



GOTA said:


> The entry level frames are all pretty close in quality and by entry level I don't mean department store bikes. The real difference is which one feels better for your body type when you ride it. I for example have short legs and a long torso so certain frames are just not comfortable. *Try a lot to see what fits your body.*





zebrahum said:


> There are so many little things people learn through experience with products like why cheap forks turn into pogo sticks and why low end shifters don't work as well as high end ones do but I think your assessment of the advice as "because" is the most accurate. To some extent the board is trying to say "hey, we've been there so take our word on it".





AndrwSwitch;9225326I said:


> see people saying that a lot of this stuff doesn't make a difference to a beginning rider, and I don't get it. Nobody likes missed shifts and screwing around with components that don't work or come out of adjustment mid-ride. Nobody likes the feeling of grabbing some brake on a descent and having nothing happen (actually even the $500 LBS bike should be fine as far as this is concerned.) Nobody likes trying to ride through a root bed and having the front wheel go every which way but forward. Nobody likes having to replace entire large-ticket components because a single element has worn out. (non-standard BCD and riveted cranks, I'm looking at you!) Nobody likes breaking something and finding out that the only way to repair it is just as fragile as they start to ride harder.


*Getting into the details of the bike, components*
Are there any particular components that are more important than the others when searching for a first time bike?



GOTA said:


> Most of the entry forks are heavy, aren't very adjustable and use older technology. After getting all banged up going down a hill covered in roots and rocks you're probably going to wish for a better suspension that would have an easier time absorbing those bumps.





AndrwSwitch said:


> So for someone who can afford it upfront, I think it's well worth spending more to get a bike with a Deore or better drivetrain, "real" suspension fork, wheels with decent hubs, and good brakes. For someone who can't... every time one of my friends buys a used bike, I kick myself again for buying mine retail.





GOTA said:


> Derailer is something that you're not going to notice starting out unless you are racing. All the Shimano and SRAM stuff is pretty good these days and that's what they all use.





Reverend_Maynard said:


> Specifically, between the 500 range and 1000 range, which I think is of particular interest to noobs, some of the main differences that mean the difference between a bike capable of being ridden a few times a month ($500) and one capable of being ridden a few times a week ($1000):


(I'm reading here, the differences might be for someone who is weekend riding, and someone who's going out every day before or after work. If you're spending that much time on the bike, it's worth it to spend the extra money on it. Both short and long term...)



Reverend_Maynard said:


> Fork: The 500 bike will generally come with a "pogo stick" fork. A cheap, coil spring, with little damping, and little or no adjust-ability. These are less capable of doing their job well, even when new, and often break quickly if ridden on real off road trails. The 1000 bike will usually have an entry level air fork that actually provides adequate damping, usually has pre-load and damping rate adjustments, as well as a lock out function. Well maintained, these forks are capable of withstanding frequent cross country, light all mountain riding.
> 
> Brakes: The 500 bike will usually have mechanical disk. While there's nothing wrong with these, and many folks swear they would rather have mechanical over hydraulic, they're generally considered to be not quite as nice as hydros. Lesser stopping power, lesser modulation, more finicky with adjustments as the pads wear, more prone to noise, etc. The 1000 bike will usually have hydros, usually either shimanos (if you're lucky) or at least not the very lowest level Avids. When they are functioning properly, hydros will give the best stopping power, and the least maintenance, as they are pretty much set and forget until you need new pads.
> 
> ...





AndrwSwitch said:


> Actually, I think that some information about the different forks could be really helpful. They can be a pretty expensive item to replace, and have a huge effect on how a bike rides.
> 
> Many RS forks are best thought of as a chassis that can accept different internals. So without getting too far into technical details, one can break them down into forks that are unacceptably flexy, marginal, and stiff enough for an aggressive, heavy rider, and forks that ship with disposable internals not worth replacing, disposable internals but replaceable with something better, or the something better already in place.
> 
> ...


*But I'm on a budget.*

Ok, so on the question of price, should I risk my marriage, my savings, and my kid's (if I had one...) college tuition buying the best bike out there?



nachomc said:


> You should never buy a bike out of your price range. They lose value faster than cars when you roll them out of the LBS and riding is supposed to be fun, not something you do to justify having spent the money you didn't have to buy a sweet bike. Buy what you can afford, and what you are comfortable spending. Then go out and have some _fun_. That's what mountain biking should be.


*The most important thing to remember is...*

Alright, what would be the one short sweet bit of advice that as a noob, I should remember when trying to my first mountain bike?



GOTA said:


> Most people here will probably tell you that they under-bought the first time and wish they hadn't because you really don't know what you want until you've been out there 20 times. My advice is to try everything you can before you buy and then by the top of the range for the model you like.





zebrahum said:


> Fit and feel are the most important parts of choosing a bike, everything else is just icing.





nachomc said:


> So basically, just go buy something you can afford, go ride it, see if you like the sport, ride it more if you do, and go from there.


I'd like to thank everyone who participated in this thread, both for the answers you gave, and the questions you asked me that helped me figure out what questions I should have been asking. An extra big thanks to everyone quoted in this post, I hope this information is as helpful to others, as it has been to me.


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## jlmuncie (Sep 10, 2010)

Up to about $2000-3000 you are paying for better quality and reliability. Above that you are generally paying for lighter weight and even better quality. Advantages for a new rider to pay more than $200 is that the bike will be lighter, require less maintenance, and have a better suspension. You can certainly get a solid well built bike for $500, especially if you buy used, so it basically comes down to what is your expected use? If you only ride on the weekends $500 will probably get you by, if you ride 4-5 times a week or are into a lot of downhill the $500 bike may not be the best thing for you. I think as a new rider you need to identify how you'll be using the bike f=before you can deceide how much money you need to spend to find a suitable bike.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

These are things you will come to understand as you dive into MTBing and learn about components, component levels, weight, and their effects. 

I bought a 500 dollar bike and wish i bought a 900-1000 dollar one.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

I know that you're getting "better" components from one price range to the next, what I'm wondering is what is better about each "jump" in price/performance.

So I have a $500 and a $1000 dollar bike sitting next to each other. What components are there to be improved? I know there's forks and derailers. jlmuncie mentioned that there's less maintenance, but what about one level of bike, would have less maintenance than the next?

zephxiii, you wish you had a higher ranged bike, now that you've got some experience. Other than the wow factor, bling factor, or keeping up with the joneses, (not that any of these apply to you, but I've been in other hobbies, and know that these things can play a part) what do you like about the higher price point bike?


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## GOTA (Apr 21, 2011)

The first thing you need to do is think about where you are going to be riding your bike. We're talking about mountain bikes which means the bike has to be capable of going off roads, on dirt, mud, rocks, roots etc... Usually mountain biking also involves hills. So you need something that can hold your weight plus gear going up and down hills at speed while riding on and uneven and rough trail.

The rock bottom end bikes found at department stores will fall apart doing that. Even worse is that they can fall apart while you are riding on them and you can go flying into the rocks and seriously hurt yourself. If you are going on pavement or on a paved bike path they should be safe but not on a real mountain bike trail.

The bottom end bikes, up to around $500, will at least be safe. They won't perform great due to heavy components and limited suspension but they are certainly usable.

The mid-level hardtails, around $1,000 to $1,500. have much better components and should be fine to have a great time on trails but won't be as good if you are looking to race. Weight now becomes a factor and the more grams you want to shave off the more expensive it is.

Full suspension bikes are a lot more complicated with sophisticated suspensions which means instead of their bottom end being $500 like a hardtail they are around $1,500.

The other pricing factor to consider is the cost of upgrading. Bike manufacturers can get components cheaper than you can. That means the complete bike they sell for $500 would probably cost you $750 if you bought all the parts and put it together. That means that it's cheaper to buy a higher end bike than it will be to buy a lower pricepoint bike and then later upgrade the components.

Hope that helps.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Flying-Monkey said:


> Other than the wow factor, bling factor, or keeping up with the joneses, (not that any of these apply to you, but I've been in other hobbies, and know that these things can play a part)


Its the same as any other hobby. Minute increases in quality, durability, fit, and finish. You choose what level to play at.


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## Reverend_Maynard (Mar 16, 2012)

Specifically, between the 500 range and 1000 range, which I think is of particular interest to noobs, some of the main differences that mean the difference between a bike capable of being ridden a few times a month (500) and one capable of being ridden a few times a week (1000):

Fork: The 500 bike will generally come with a "pogo stick" fork. A cheap, coil spring, with little damping, and little or no adjust-ability. These are less capable of doing their job well, even when new, and often break quickly if ridden on real off road trails. The 1000 bike will usually have an entry level air fork that actually provides adequate damping, usually has pre-load and damping rate adjustments, as well as a lock out function. Well maintained, these forks are capable of withstanding frequent cross country, light all mountain riding.

Brakes: The 500 bike will usually have mechanical disk. While there's nothing wrong with these, and many folks swear they would rather have mechanical over hydraulic, they're generally considered to be not quite as nice as hydros. Lesser stopping power, lesser modulation, more finicky with adjustments as the pads wear, more prone to noise, etc. The 1000 bike will usually have hydros, usually either shimanos (if you're lucky) or at least not the very lowest level Avids. When they are functioning properly, hydros will give the best stopping power, and the least maintenance, as they are pretty much set and forget until you need new pads.

Wheelset: The 500 bike will usually come with single walled rims, many times with the rim braking surface so that the same rim is used for the disk version and the v brake version. They also have the lowest quality hubs. These are not going to last long through repeated rough riding, needing frequent truing, and eventually needing repairs that cost more than the wheels are worth. The 1000 bike will usually come with double walled, disk specific rims that will be stronger and lighter, as well as having heavier duty hubs.

Keep in mind that when it come to upgrading, you generally have to completely remove the existing component and replace with a whole new component. So, if you upgrade the cheap, $30 a set mechanical disk brakes with $100 hydros, you pay the full $100, not the $70 difference, so buying a cheaper bike and upgrading the components will usually ending up costing you at least twice as much as just buying the higher level bike to begin with.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

Spend more - get parts that work better for longer and weigh less.


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## jlmuncie (Sep 10, 2010)

Flying-Monkey said:


> I know that you're getting "better" components from one price range to the next, what I'm wondering is what is better about each "jump" in price/performance.
> 
> So I have a $500 and a $1000 dollar bike sitting next to each other. What components are there to be improved? I know there's forks and derailers. jlmuncie mentioned that there's less maintenance, but what about one level of bike, would have less maintenance than the next?
> 
> zephxiii, you wish you had a higher ranged bike, now that you've got some experience. Other than the wow factor, bling factor, or keeping up with the joneses, (not that any of these apply to you, but I've been in other hobbies, and know that these things can play a part) what do you like about the higher price point bike?


Monkey
A new person isn't going to really be able to tell differences between a low and high end bike except for maybe weight or cosmetics. Mechanics between the two will be deifferent although both bikes may very well work equally good while on a parking lot test ride. Lower end components often work well initially but because they are manufactured with less precise tolerances they will come out of adjustment relatively quickly and won't stand up as well to hard use. Lower end bikes also use lower grades of everything, tires, seats, grips, even cables and housings are cheaper parts. There isnt really any bling factor on a $1000 or $2000 bike, most seasoned users would consider that price range "entry level".


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## Larry_K (Jul 10, 2010)

.....


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## junior1210 (Sep 9, 2011)

FWIW I would suggest going to BikesDirect and checkout the Fantom 29 series of bikes to see a very clear demo of what Larry K is describing. I think he's right and it's real easy to see there as opposed to other mfg's or sites.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

GOTA said:


> The other pricing factor to consider is the cost of upgrading. Bike manufacturers can get components cheaper than you can. That means the complete bike they sell for $500 would probably cost you $750 if you bought all the parts and put it together. That means that it's cheaper to buy a higher end bike than it will be to buy a lower pricepoint bike and then later upgrade the components.
> 
> Hope that helps.


Thanks. This partly answers/leads to the next question I was going to ask.

Is there an "entry level" frame that's better than others, that a beginner could/should look for that they could upgrade as they went?

What components are upgradable, and why? What difference would the beginner be able to detect from one level of component to the next?

I understand that in general, you get more when you pay more. But what "more" does the average rider need starting out. What is worth buying with the anticipation of staying with the activity, vs, what's overbuying, because it's "the best"?

For example, why buy a derailer from brand X, made from unobtanium, instead of from brand Y that has one made with eludium, versus buying the stock one made with more terrestrial materials?

As a beginner, just telling me it "is made of better materials" doesn't tell me a whole lot. I'm a two wheeled weekend warrior, I'm not para-biking from a helicopter onto a mountain slope, dodging bullets from cold war era Soviet spies who accidentally confused me with a British agent.

I imagine that as an intro bike, its something that one would be planning to get a few years out of it, with the thought of learning what their style/level/amount of riding will be. Some of the more "frugal" might intend to buy up on the frame (since that seems to be the central part of the bike" and worry about component improvement later, even if it costs more in the long run.

So,(changing directions somewhat, let's call this a question within the question...) with this in mind, how would one go about choosing a good frame that might be worthy of upgrades, without just buying a good frame and building the bike from scratch?


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

zebrahum said:


> Spend more - get parts that work better for longer and weigh less.


While I "know" what you're saying, pretend I'm stupid... (It's not hard, my wife will tell you this. )

What you're saying, is heard by the beginner as... "because." Since we're here in the beginner section, remember it's the brand new, first time to see a bike ever, beginner I'm aiming my questions/answers to. I know some, but I also want to know the "why".

Why as a beginner, who thinks the shiny white Iron Horse bike at Walmart looked "just snazzy, hey, it has disc brakes, how cool is that?!?" Why spend the higher price, when I don't even know what I'm looking for, would be interested in, nor know why it would help me be happier in my riding to upgrade at initial purchase.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

jlmuncie, this is much more like what I'm looking for in an answer, do you mind if I break it down to the highlightable points?



jlmuncie said:


> A new person isn't going to really be able to tell differences between a low and high end bike except for maybe weight or cosmetics.


Perfect (pre)answer, thank you!



jlmuncie said:


> Mechanics between the two will be different although both bikes may very well work equally good while on a parking lot test ride.


A great point.



jlmuncie said:


> Lower end components often work well initially but because they are manufactured with less precise tolerances they will come out of adjustment relatively quickly and won't stand up as well to hard use.


Ok, so this is a great point as well. THIS means something to me, as a beginner. I don't know what my settings should be, nor do I want to keep fiddling with them. So the idea that a better quality component will hold an adjusted setting, has value to me.



jlmuncie said:


> Lower end bikes also use lower grades of everything, tires, seats, grips, even cables and housings are cheaper parts.


The tires is not a selling point. I imagine, as a beginner, I wouldn't mind that they'll wear out faster. Chances are, the stock tire won't be a good match for whatever terrain the bike will be ridden in, and it's an upgrade that the new rider can make, and feel good about. The seat is another thing that will likely be upgraded to personal taste, so a "disposable" one might not matter as much to the new guy. Grips, cables and housings on the other hand are things the beginner doesn't want to have to think about for a long time. Chances are they will be things he expects his bike mechanic will work on, which means mechanic fees, so the longer they last, the more long term value they hold.



jlmuncie said:


> There isnt really any bling factor on a $1000 or $2000 bike, most seasoned users would consider that price range "entry level".


Of course, it all depends on the level of "seasoned" rider, and what their base salaries are.  Looking at my bank account statement, a $2000 dollar bike, will likely be an out of reach high end investment for a while.

Thank you for your reply!


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

Thanks all for your input, I have to get to work, but I intend to address all of your comments when I can. Thanks to Larry and Reverend_Maynard, you had some excellent points I want to revisit.

Ugh... it's tough, but someone has to do it...


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## GOTA (Apr 21, 2011)

The entry level frames are all pretty close in quality and by entry level I don't mean department store bikes. The real difference is which one feels better for your body type when you ride it. I for example have short legs and a long torso so certain frames are just not comfortable. Try a lot to see what fits your body.

Pretty much everything besides the frame can be upgraded. The reason is weight, strength and technology. Heavier riders for example often need stronger wheels and hubs. Rotational weight is also the most noticeable on a bike which means you're going to feel a very heavy wheel set.

The heavier the bike the more effort it takes to pedal up a hill so those cheap heavy handlebars and seatposts that come with entry level bikes are often replaced with much lighter aluminum. 

Most of the entry forks are heavy, aren't very adjustable and use older technology. After getting all banged up going down a hill covered in roots and rocks you're probably going to wish for a better suspension that would have an easier time absorbing those bumps.

Derailer is something that you're not going to notice starting out unless you are racing. All the Shimano and SRAM stuff is pretty good these days and that's what they all use. 

Most people here will probably tell you that they under-bought the first time and wish they hadn't because you really don't know what you want until you've been out there 20 times. My advice is to try everything you can before you buy and then by the top of the range for the model you like. For example if you decide a Trek 3 series I'd pay the $620 for the Trek 3900 instead of $480 for the Trek 3500. That price difference is cheap for the better components that you get.


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## akacoke (May 11, 2011)

everyone else pretty much got everything. 

i think the most important thing is the suspension . definitely get a better fork and shock. it will be much much easier on your joint like wrist and elbow. 

do you want a huge medical bill and chronic pain. or you want spend some money on nice fork just once a few yrs?


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

zebrahum said:


> Spend more - get parts that work better for longer and weigh less.


This.

Big differences up to around $1500. At $1500, you should be getting a suspension fork that you can adjust to work for your weight and that doesn't either pack up when you ride through a series of bumps or kick back after a bigger hit, a Deore or better (or SRAM equivalent) drivetrain that should be fairly set-and-forget as far as tuning and have a decent enough crank not to just throw it out and replace in its entirety when you wear out a chainring, maybe even wheels with decent hubs, either nicer mechanical or acceptably good hydraulic disc brakes.

I see people saying that a lot of this stuff doesn't make a difference to a beginning rider, and I don't get it. Nobody likes missed shifts and screwing around with components that don't work or come out of adjustment mid-ride. Nobody likes the feeling of grabbing some brake on a descent and having nothing happen (actually even the $500 LBS bike should be fine as far as this is concerned.) Nobody likes trying to ride through a root bed and having the front wheel go every which way but forward. Nobody likes having to replace entire large-ticket components because a single element has worn out. (non-standard BCD and riveted cranks, I'm looking at you!) Nobody likes breaking something and finding out that the only way to repair it is just as fragile as they start to ride harder.

Depending on the manufacturer, sometimes there's still some big improvements in suspension performance for one or two pricepoints. Felt, for example, goes from giving you a Recon TK out of the box to a Reba RL, which is supposed to be a pretty significant improvement in damping. But I think that somewhere between $1500 and $2000 is where the diminishing returns start to really kick in - you get to have a lighter bike, but it's not that important. Everything works, but everything worked on the lower-level bike. The finishing touches - tires, etc - are nicer, but a lot of people swap that stuff out within a week or two anyway.

So for someone who can afford it upfront, I think it's well worth spending more to get a bike with a Deore or better drivetrain, "real" suspension fork, wheels with decent hubs, and good brakes. For someone who can't... every time one of my friends buys a used bike, I kick myself again for buying mine retail.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

Flying-Monkey said:


> While I "know" what you're saying, pretend I'm stupid... (It's not hard, my wife will tell you this. )
> 
> What you're saying, is heard by the beginner as... "because." Since we're here in the beginner section, remember it's the brand new, first time to see a bike ever, beginner I'm aiming my questions/answers to. I know some, but I also want to know the "why".
> 
> Why as a beginner, who thinks the shiny white Iron Horse bike at Walmart looked "just snazzy, hey, it has disc brakes, how cool is that?!?" Why spend the higher price, when I don't even know what I'm looking for, would be interested in, nor know why it would help me be happier in my riding to upgrade at initial purchase.


It's tough because expanding the answer doesn't mean that the question has been better addressed. If you spend some time reading advice given to first time or inexperienced bike buyers then the trend of suggesting spending as much money up front is always suggested. There are a lot of reasons for this, but my comment is the distilled version of why.

More expensive parts have better tolerances, are made from better materials, have better technology associated with them, and that means that you will get a better experience from them whether you're a beginner or expert. While it's true that a beginner might not immediately notice a difference between the two, in the long run inexpensive parts will show their faults. Does that mean you should avoid a bike with _______ part on it? Well no, not if your budget doesn't allow it. But if you can spend the money up front without causing a strain to your life then by all means spend the money up front.

Bike manufacturers are able to negotiate great bulk pricing which means that the bikes they put together as (what we call) "completes" carry more value per part than if you were to buy those parts individually and add them to a frame. This value from buying a complete is why people rarely suggest that you buy a bike if your intention is to upgrade a bunch of parts on it.

There are so many little things people learn through experience with products like why cheap forks turn into pogo sticks and why low end shifters don't work as well as high end ones do but I think your assessment of the advice as "because" is the most accurate. To some extent the board is trying to say "hey, we've been there so take our word on it".

No offence but it is very time consuming to explain every nuance of why every different component on a bike that is more expensive than another makes for a more worthwhile riding experience. Perhaps if you had a specific question or example that has you hung up then it would be much easier to give you a straight answer. And when it comes down to it, the only thing that truly matters is that you're happy riding the thing. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: it doesn't matter what parts are attached to your bike as long as you like riding it.

Fit and feel are the most important parts of choosing a bike, everything else is just icing.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

flying-monkey said:


> i'm a two wheeled weekend warrior, i'm not para-biking from a helicopter onto a mountain slope, dodging bullets from cold war era soviet spies who accidentally confused me with a british agent.


htfu


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

Flying-Monkey said:


> What would be the average price for an introductory mountain bike,
> 
> What do you get in a $500 bike, that you're not getting in a $200.
> 
> ...


I second going to bikedirect (bd) and looking at their price list and components. very straightforward. All of the below is based on the highest value/$, which imho is bikesdirect. You are saving on marketing and sponsorship budget to get a better bike for the same amount shopping htere.

A $200 is bad value since it's really a $80 bike after considering shipping cost from China and to your home. It's a false economy if you're going to be really using your bike with any decent use since at this level components are really cheap and break more readily.

A $370-500 bike (check out the final 600ht motobecane right now) will get you much better front and rear derailleur (alivio or worse > deore), better shock (suntour > rockshox dart2), better wheels, crankset, and wheels. All of these things are substantial upgrade and worth the money. 
You will not get more bang/buck anywhere else 
Mountain Bikes - MTB - Motobecane 600HT

You are not getting added durability beyond this point

A $1000 bike
componets deore > XT. I think deore is just as reliable, just heavier. Deore is a sweet spots in performance for price.
Shock: you can reba fork in this price range. This valuable and much higher fork compared to dart2. This is the sweet spot in performance/price on forks. In fact, sell the $400 reba fork on an $800 reba equipped bike, buy a $80 dart and you get $800-400+100 = $500 x9 equipped bike. 
Brakes, you get tektro hydraulic (can't comment on the quality of these) . going from a dart2 fork > reba fork gives you substantial weight savings.

Beyond this is your paying for a lighter bike faster bike. Don't discount the difference between a 
from $1000>$2000
In 29ers, ~32lb > 23 lbs
26ers ~30 > 21 lbs

The reason on paying more depends on how serious you are. If you can, ride a friends bike on a few trail rides for awhile. See if it's your thing. The reason is, alway buy as much bike as you can initially as you'll never be able to upgrade without spending twice is much. The pricing in individual components is %200 what it cost vs buying it all on the bike.

over $1000 you, better lighter cranksets. In the $2000 range you get lighter wheels and lighter frame. at $2100 you can get a titanium frame, which is more flexy than aluminum. Since titanium is durable some consider this an investment. The frame could last 15 years on a hardtail without getting outdated too much since the design doesn't change compared to aluminum and carbon frames.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Now that catalog bikes have been dragged into the thread in the conversation, I'd encourage the OP, or anyone looking at bikes, to consider a couple other things in figuring out what "value" means.

Bikes don't all fit and ride the same. You need to ride it to figure it out. You may need a new stem, or an entirely different size. Getting the right size is a big deal for me. If you have a reference bike to compare to and know how to read a geometry chart, fine.

Catalog bikes don't come fully assembled. They're (typically) mostly assembled, but need finishing and tuning. None of this stuff is rocket science, but if you're not going to do it yourself, it's an extra cost. If you haven't done it before, IMO it's easier to learn to maintain a working bike than to figure out one that's not, to begin with.

I'd consider BD, or catalogs like them, for a second bike. I thought a poster on another thread was right to order from Airborne the other day. But I don't think it's a great idea for someone who's just ordering a size based on height and hoping that they turn out to agree with whoever made up the chart, and that person's assumptions about the buyer's needs.

I was even thinking about a catalog bike fairly seriously this winter, since I wanted to get a track bike. Ended up finding one locally for a lot less, and the woman who sold it to me even gave me some spare cogs with it.


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## junior1210 (Sep 9, 2011)

When I suggested looking at BikesDirect I was referring to the improvement in parts per price jump. While I do think they are a great value, I wasn't trying to hawk their products (this time). Bob13Bob explained my point far better than I did.


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## Brycentron (Apr 7, 2012)

I went through this a bit but I knew I wanted a full susp entry level bike. I realized I could hardly touch one for under 2k new so I went and found a couple year old Rocky Mountain that hardly saw trails. 2k new. got it for 1k. Ive noticed through researching the bike after the purchase that a lot of the components are not quite up to snuff. Even things down to the seat post and bars/stem. Ive upgraded all that already and I have more plans. Thats the route I went to get a bike that was a little out of my price range new.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

zebrahum said:


> It's tough because expanding the answer doesn't mean that the question has been better addressed. If you spend some time reading advice given to first time or inexperienced bike buyers then the trend of suggesting spending as much money up front is always suggested. There are a lot of reasons for this, but my comment is the distilled version of why.
> 
> More expensive parts have better tolerances, are made from better materials, have better technology associated with them, and that means that you will get a better experience from them whether you're a beginner or expert. While it's true that a beginner might not immediately notice a difference between the two, in the long run inexpensive parts will show their faults. Does that mean you should avoid a bike with _______ part on it? Well no, not if your budget doesn't allow it. But if you can spend the money up front without causing a strain to your life then by all means spend the money up front.
> 
> ...


Well said...

To add further confusion to the subject, not all manufacturers give you the same level of components at the same price point. The OP's question is very hard to answer without getting caught up in all the nuances. I think the best way to look at it is as if you were buying a computer. A $300 computer may give you an i3 processor but it wont come with a dedicated video card. If you want the dedicated video card then you may have to spend extra for a computer that has an i5 processor... unless you decide to buy the i3 computer and add a video card later. Of course then you might find another manufacturer that does offer an i3 with a dedicated video card but they use an ugly case. I mean, it could go on forever.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Now that catalog bikes have been dragged into the thread in the conversation, I'd encourage the OP, or anyone looking at bikes, to consider a couple other things in figuring out what "value" means.


I was surprised it took as long as it did, frankly.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

^^^
LOL. Too true.


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## bob7 (Apr 18, 2012)

junior1210 said:


> When I suggested looking at BikesDirect I was referring to the improvement in parts per price jump. While I do think they are a great value, I wasn't trying to hawk their products (this time).


I have to agree with this. I am complete green to part name vs quality. that site helps understand the hierarchy of Shimano parts. or at least leads that impression to me.

in my circumstance, looking at used models, it helps to understand what general consensus is for each type, I.e. suntour vs dart


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## bob7 (Apr 18, 2012)

and thanks to this forum and mostly this thread and those like it, I have a good understanding of what is considered quality parts. It also raised excellent points about maintenance/ tune ups and upgrades. which pushes me to get something new (or last year models) from a LBS for close to $400 instead of something 10 yrs old from CL for $150 and then you need a tune, maybe some parts, tires, etc. you can easily be rack up cpl hundred bucks b/c you dont know what to look for as far as wear and tear in a used bike.


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## Guerdonian (Sep 4, 2008)

For those who are into cars, sports cars are a perfect example to a similar market as a bike. Large jumps in performance at lower prices, slight increases at the supercar range, for large jumps in $$

Kudo's to Aswitch and Muncie, very good points on both accounts :thumbsup:

Here is a ghetto graph of whats going on for funzies:


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

Ok, I'm back. I have to say thanks to everyone (well, most everyone... ) that posted while I was away. I'll start addressing the posts I found to be the most informative in just a moment.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

Thanks GOTA.



GOTA said:


> The entry level frames are all pretty close in quality and by entry level I don't mean department store bikes. The real difference is which one feels better for your body type when you ride it. I for example have short legs and a long torso so certain frames are just not comfortable. *Try a lot to see what fits your body.*


This is like so many other things. It doesn't matter how great the product is, if it's not comfortable for YOU, then it's not the best one for you.



GOTA said:


> Pretty much everything besides the frame can be upgraded. The reason is weight, strength and technology. Heavier riders for example often need stronger wheels and hubs. Rotational weight is also the most noticeable on a bike which means you're going to feel a very heavy wheel set.


So what I'm getting from this, like mentioned before, the frame is the core product you're buying, and the rest of the parts are essentially, the accessories. Of course that's a topic for a whole different thread... 



GOTA said:


> The heavier the bike the more effort it takes to pedal up a hill so those cheap heavy handlebars and seatposts that come with entry level bikes are often replaced with much lighter aluminum.


I understand the appeal of shedding weight. Not something that a complete beginner would grasp just getting into biking. Since we don't have as many hills here in FL, it's not as much on our minds, but who wants to haul more weight than they have to?



GOTA said:


> Most of the entry forks are heavy, aren't very adjustable and use older technology. After getting all banged up going down a hill covered in roots and rocks you're probably going to wish for a better suspension that would have an easier time absorbing those bumps.


So, other than asking a guy, who doesn't know the difference between a walmart bike, and a $1000 "entry level" system to buy something outside of his price range, what's the solution to this? Ride the entry level shocks for a while, then upgrade? Look for a bike with a good frame, at a good price, and ditch the shocks right away? From what I've seen, just the price of shocks, can easily be more than the beginner rider would want to pay for the whole bike.



GOTA said:


> Derailer is something that you're not going to notice starting out unless you are racing. All the Shimano and SRAM stuff is pretty good these days and that's what they all use.


Ok, I wondered about this. I wasn't sure how much room there was for improvement in the shifting systems. Other than as was mentioned before, a higher quality system, will have higher tolerances, and will stay adjusted better.



GOTA said:


> Most people here will probably tell you that they under-bought the first time and wish they hadn't because you really don't know what you want until you've been out there 20 times. My advice is to try everything you can before you buy and then by the top of the range for the model you like.


The only problem with this, is again, as mentioned elsewhere, there's things you'll learn about a bike, that you can't learn while doing circles in a LBS parking lot. Other than the general fit/feel of the frame. Is there a solution to this? (My LBS is within a 1/4 mile of a trail. One of the employees there offered to let me try some of the rental/demo bikes out on the trail if I was interested. I count myself fortunate to have them right down the road from me.)



GOTA said:


> For example if you decide a Trek 3 series I'd pay the $620 for the Trek 3900 instead of $480 for the Trek 3500. That price difference is cheap for the better components that you get.


I have a feeling that this is an awesome example, but I don't know those products well enough to grasp what you're trying to share. I'll go look it up, and see if I can understand the example better. Thank you for the time you put into this reply.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Guerdonian said:


> For those who are into cars, sports cars are a perfect example to a similar market as a bike. Large jumps in performance at lower prices, slight increases at the supercar range, for large jumps in $$
> 
> Kudo's to Aswitch and Muncie, very good points on both accounts :thumbsup:
> 
> Here is a ghetto graph of whats going on for funzies:


+rep on the ghetto graph.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Big differences up to around $1500. At $1500, you should be getting a suspension fork that you can adjust to work for your weight and that doesn't either pack up when you ride through a series of bumps or kick back after a bigger hit, a Deore or better (or SRAM equivalent) drivetrain that should be fairly set-and-forget as far as tuning and have a decent enough crank not to just throw it out and replace in its entirety when you wear out a chainring, maybe even wheels with decent hubs, either nicer mechanical or acceptably good hydraulic disc brakes.


Here's how I look at this, the average guy, who was told about, or saw something on single track cycling, isn't likely to drop $1500 on a piece of equipment. Especially one that could end up just being another thing keeping his car from fitting into the garage. I'm able to grasp, in concept, if not yet in practice, the importance of a good shock system. I don't think there's the justification level in the new guy's mind, to spend an extra $1000 over what they're likely to be willing to shell out, and $1300 more than the bike they saw at Walmart, that might have been what sparked their interest.



AndrwSwitch;9225326I said:


> see people saying that a lot of this stuff doesn't make a difference to a beginning rider, and I don't get it. Nobody likes missed shifts and screwing around with components that don't work or come out of adjustment mid-ride. Nobody likes the feeling of grabbing some brake on a descent and having nothing happen (actually even the $500 LBS bike should be fine as far as this is concerned.) Nobody likes trying to ride through a root bed and having the front wheel go every which way but forward. Nobody likes having to replace entire large-ticket components because a single element has worn out. (non-standard BCD and riveted cranks, I'm looking at you!) Nobody likes breaking something and finding out that the only way to repair it is just as fragile as they start to ride harder.


You're talking about the "beginning" rider that's already experienced those things. I'm trying to ask these questioned from the viewpoint of the guy who has never been out on a trail. Maybe he's seen some footage on youtube, and it didn't look that hard to him. The quality of the bikes in the video wasn't apparent, just the cool factor of the speed and apparent ease that the rider's skill lulled him into believing was within the reach of a new rider.



AndrwSwitch said:


> Depending on the manufacturer, sometimes there's still some big improvements in suspension performance for one or two pricepoints. Felt, for example, goes from giving you a Recon TK out of the box to a Reba RL, which is supposed to be a pretty significant improvement in damping. But I think that somewhere between $1500 and $2000 is where the diminishing returns start to really kick in - you get to have a lighter bike, but it's not that important. Everything works, but everything worked on the lower-level bike. The finishing touches - tires, etc - are nicer, but a lot of people swap that stuff out within a week or two anyway.


Again, we're at a price point beyond what I think the guy who use wants to "see if it's for him" will make him poop his britches, and run away. While I'm not arguing your assessment that the equipment at that dollar amount is where you get the most bang for your buck, I don't think it's really the price range that the average beginner will be willing to try to justify to the wife.



AndrwSwitch said:


> So for someone who can afford it upfront, I think it's well worth spending more to get a bike with a Deore or better drivetrain, "real" suspension fork, wheels with decent hubs, and good brakes. For someone who can't... every time one of my friends buys a used bike, I kick myself again for buying mine retail.


I think there will have to be a thread (if there isn't already) where the different components can be divided, and the value assessments can be assigned. My goal here, is to assemble the info you guys have given to me and make it understandable and easily available to other new riders.

Thank you Andrw.


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## Larry_K (Jul 10, 2010)

Flying-Monkey said:


> While I "know" what you're saying, pretend I'm stupid... (It's not hard, my wife will tell you this. )
> 
> What you're saying, is heard by the beginner as... "because." Since we're here in the beginner section, remember it's the brand new, first time to see a bike ever, beginner I'm aiming my questions/answers to. I know some, but I also want to know the "why".
> 
> Why as a beginner, who thinks the shiny white Iron Horse bike at Walmart looked "just snazzy, hey, it has disc brakes, how cool is that?!?" Why spend the higher price, when I don't even know what I'm looking for, would be interested in, nor know why it would help me be happier in my riding to upgrade at initial purchase.


I see exactly where you're coming from, but like I do in many cases I think you're kind of overthinking it (not meant as an insult, so please don't take it that way). If you really break it down as basic as possible, as a new rider you will likely see little difference between a $500 bike and one at $1000 if both bikes are *perfectly* setup by the bike shop. I know everybody's answers as to "why spend more?" seem extremely vague but the "because it's built better and will require less fiddling" answer is about as accurate as we can get.

It's not that there's a single item on the bike that's way better, it's all a matter of a bunch of minor "upgrades" adding up to the price difference. The best way to answer "Why?" would be to check out a few local bike shops and check out a $500 bike and compare it to something out of your price range. Just as an example, if there's a Specialized dealer try out a Hardrock Disc compared to a Stumpjumper Comp. You'll be comparing a $580 bike to a $2050 bike but it will show you an extreme example of what "better parts" means. Just riding around a parking lot isn't much of a test but you should notice a huge difference in shifting, the smoothness of the fork, how well the brakes work, etc. The one huge downside with the comparison though is that the Stumpjumper will be MUCH lighter but this might give you a sense of everyone means by "more $$ equals better parts". A good salesman at a bike shop will be able to show you what makes part B better than part A, which is the question your ultimately trying to answer.

Also, see if they have either a rental program or if any mfg will be doing a demo day somewhere nearby. Trek, Felt & Giant have all done demos in our area and you get to ride a huge selection of their bikes on real trails so you get an idea of what you get for more money.

Even though it's quite confusing to choose a "perfect" first bike I don't think you can really go wrong with almost anything that's $500 and up. Just make sure it has double walled rims and if it's a 7sp rear make sure it's a cassette instead of just a threaded freewheel. I wouldn't initially worry about the upgradability of the frame, the bike that fits you perfectly now may be holding you back if you get serious and start riding all the time. The most important thing is to start logging some miles on the bike that feels best to you now that's in your price range and see where it goes from there.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Flying-Monkey said:


> So, other than asking a guy, who doesn't know the difference between a walmart bike, and a $1000 "entry level" system to buy something outside of his price range, what's the solution to this?


You should never buy a bike out of your price range. They lose value faster than cars when you roll them out of the LBS and riding is supposed to be fun, not something you do to justify having spent the money you didn't have to buy a sweet bike. Buy what you can afford, and what you are comfortable spending. Then go out and have some _fun_. That's what mountain biking should be.



Flying-Monkey said:


> The only problem with this, is again, as mentioned elsewhere, there's things you'll learn about a bike, that you can't learn while doing circles in a LBS parking lot. Other than the general fit/feel of the frame. Is there a solution to this?


Find a bike that feels comfortable and go ride it. Lots. Know that a lot of the fit can be adjusted - different bars, different stem, different saddle, maybe a set back seat post if you need it, etc. Just make sure the frame is the 'right' size and you have the saddle/stem adjusted right; your LBS should assist you with this with a basic fit as part of the purchase, and it should include swapping the stem if it's too short/long at no charge.

Then go ride. Ride flat trails, steep trails, fire road, some technical stuff, etc. And while you're doing that, read the forums, or other sources. Before too long you'll probably learn what you do/don't like about your bike, why you do/don't like those things and how the fit/geometry of the frame affect the way you're riding. If you do some group rides with locals, you'll probably also find that many are friendly, helpful, and stoked to let another rider take a short spin on their bike to see how it feels. Over time you'll learn what you do and don't like, and then you can spend the money to get the components you like. And don't be surprised if what you love to ride changes over time. I started with a hard tail, then got a full suspension bike and it was the best thing ever, rode it a bunch and a couple other full suspension bikes, and now I ride rigid steel framed bikes. My buddy rode a Proflex for YEARS, bought a carbon Titus full suspension bike, loved it, and now rides a steel frame hard tail and swears he'll never go back to FS.

So basically, just go buy something you can afford, go ride it, see if you like the sport, ride it more if you do, and go from there.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

zebrahum said:


> It's tough because expanding the answer doesn't mean that the question has been better addressed. If you spend some time reading advice given to first time or inexperienced bike buyers then the trend of suggesting spending as much money up front is always suggested. There are a lot of reasons for this, but my comment is the distilled version of why.


I also fly RC aircraft. I've got quite a bit of time on the forums related to that hobby. We see the same things there. New people wanting to get into the hobby as inexpensively as they can. They see cheap combo packages, with the transmitter included, and think that this is a good deal. Simply telling them to buy a good radio upfront is the best investment they can make, is just going to go over their heads, unless you can make them realize the value of that piece of equipment.

I see the same thing here. Telling someone that they should spend as much as possible on a hobby/sport that they might drop in a few weeks or even months, is going to go in one ear and out the other. What I'm aiming for here, is the framework for a good justification of spending a little more money to get something worth buying. At the same time, there's no point in over buying on a first bike, when a good mid level system is all the rider might ever need.



zebrahum said:


> More expensive parts have better tolerances, are made from better materials, have better technology associated with them, and that means that you will get a better experience from them whether you're a beginner or expert. While it's true that a beginner might not immediately notice a difference between the two, in the long run inexpensive parts will show their faults. Does that mean you should avoid a bike with _______ part on it? Well no, not if your budget doesn't allow it. But if you can spend the money up front without causing a strain to your life then by all means spend the money up front.


I grasp the concept, but I also realize the reality (as you mentioned here) that there's often a budget that is dictating the purchase, not some reluctance to get the best product possible. So far I've seen some really good replies that help make that budget driven decision a little easier. Information that might help a prudent shopper justify spending a little outside his intended price range, to save himself some money down the road. That's really part of what my goal is with this thread.



zebrahum said:


> Bike manufacturers are able to negotiate great bulk pricing which means that the bikes they put together as (what we call) "completes" carry more value per part than if you were to buy those parts individually and add them to a frame. This value from buying a complete is why people rarely suggest that you buy a bike if your intention is to upgrade a bunch of parts on it.


This is pretty much the exact opposite of the RC aircraft hobby. Certainly at the lower price points, at least. In those cases, they might have a good airframe, but they install some of the cheapest parts possible, and it's not uncommon to have to replace them. In those cases, you're better off buying just the airframe, and install your own components. You'll spend more in the long run, but you'll have a better all around experience.



zebrahum said:


> There are so many little things people learn through experience with products like why cheap forks turn into pogo sticks and why low end shifters don't work as well as high end ones do but I think your assessment of the advice as "because" is the most accurate. To some extent the board is trying to say "hey, we've been there so take our word on it".


This is one of those endless cycles, and without a better, ready made argument than "because" you'll keep seeing new riders balking at the experienced riders attempts at assistance, because the new guy wants to know "why". Why should I spend more of MY money, just because YOU tell me to. I think with the information in this thread, some of it extracted in a process not entirely unlike pulling teeth, the help the experienced riders want to give, can be better grasped by the new people coming here for help.



zebrahum said:


> No offence but it is very time consuming to explain every nuance of why every different component on a bike that is more expensive than another makes for a more worthwhile riding experience. Perhaps if you had a specific question or example that has you hung up then it would be much easier to give you a straight answer. And when it comes down to it, the only thing that truly matters is that you're happy riding the thing. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: it doesn't matter what parts are attached to your bike as long as you like riding it.


Oh snap, you broke out the "no offense" clause. Now you can tell me my mom is ugly, and she dresses me funny, and I can't be offended... 

I'll turn it back on you and say, no offense, but if it's a bother, then don't do it. Simple. I don't mean to "make" you answer these questions. I promise, I will not start randomly PMing board members, insisting they give me assistance in my quest for knowledge. Give what you can, and I'll appreciate the time you do invest. If you choose to skip a question of mine by, I would still share trail with you, and even a cold brew at the favorite watering hole at the end of the day.



zebrahum said:


> Fit and feel are the most important parts of choosing a bike, everything else is just icing.


This is a reoccurring sentiment, that I agree with wholly. Something you can't get from a catalog selection, or someone else's opinion. Everything else posted in this thread, and elsewhere in the forum is just bits of data to take into consideration when choosing a bike, available for the reader to use or not use. As a lawyer once said, if the bike don't fit, you're gonna quit. Or something like that...


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

nachomc said:


> htfu


I think, letter for letter, this posting had the most bang for it's buck.

The Big Lebowski would call this "deep man!"

Dig deep, push yourself as hard as you can, and you deserve the best equipment to help you reach those lofty goals. Don't make the job harder by using inferior tools. Spend large, and live large. You only live once.

Thank you nachomc for your insight into this thread. Much green rep thingies to you!


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

Larry_K said:


> The best way to answer "Why?" would be to check out a few local bike shops and check out a $500 bike and compare it to something out of your price range. Just as an example, if there's a Specialized dealer try out a Hardrock Disc compared to a Stumpjumper Comp. You'll be comparing a $580 bike to a $2050 bike but it will show you an extreme example of what "better parts" means.


YES! You're about to cut to the chase of why I was looking for in this thread...



Larry_K said:


> Just riding around a parking lot isn't much of a test but you should notice a huge difference in shifting,


Ok...



Larry_K said:


> the smoothness of the fork,


good...



Larry_K said:


> how well the brakes work, etc.


awesome, this is info that a beginner might not know to even look for.



Larry_K said:


> A good salesman at a bike shop will be able to show you what makes part B better than part A, which is the question your ultimately trying to answer.


The key words here is "good salesman". The information you guys are supplying here, is the stuff a total noob wouldn't even think to think about, never mind ask, or call a bad salesman out on. So yes, that does cut to the heart of what I was trying to ask and have answered.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

You said you have a dealer down the street who'll let you demo some bikes on some trails. Do it.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you can make a thread that's a good resource for others. Even if you did, they wouldn't read it. Just get your own questions answered; people who understand the concept of Google probably already found the same information elsewhere. 

I picked up the beginning of my current mountain bike on a semi-whim five years ago. I was actually pretty impressed by the fork in the showroom, and even on the first ride. It took a couple rides to seize, although it always tracked pretty badly. Looking at my "information" page, it looks like I didn't join the site until I'd had the bike for a few months. My bad.  It might have motivated me to buy a used bike, my "broken record" advice to others who don't want to spend any more than I did.

So to some extent, you may have to take this stuff on faith. Or, talk to a cycling friend. My only cycling friend when I picked up my current bike was my girlfriend at the time, and I think she still has the '90s rigid Cannondale that she had as her mountain bike when we were dating. I doubt it's seen many miles in a few years, though. Now I seem to be a lot of my friends' cycling friend, or at least mountain biker friend, when they decide to buy bikes. I'm 30, they're mostly my age, and they don't want to throw $1500 at a bike any more than you do, or I did. So I tell them to get a used bike, cross my fingers that they don't get hosed and get mad at me for it, and then, so far, I kick myself for having bought retail myself.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I'm 30


HAHA you're old!!!

Aw, crap, I turn 31 this weekend


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> You said you have a dealer down the street who'll let you demo some bikes on some trails. Do it.


I intend to, eventually...

I don't need any more bike envy. I have an older (read 1998) Giant Sedona SE. It's got a set of Indy RoxShocks front suspension, I replaced all the cables, chain, rear cassette, grips and seat. It's getting me out on the trails, and I'm having a total blast with it.



AndrwSwitch said:


> Don't fool yourself into thinking you can make a thread that's a good resource for others. Even if you did, they wouldn't read it. Just get your own questions answered; people who understand the concept of Google probably already found the same information elsewhere.


I've done it in the past...  Heck, I've even helped get an entire forum started, set up the lay out, and it's still going strong.

I like helping people, I like learning things, and I really like figuring out how to figure out what to ask, to help me learn things that allow me to help people. This isn't some sort of altruistic pursuit. I get enjoyment out of it. I'm a sort of self serving good Samaritan. I don't know if google would get these answers. The folks here have been awesome, and supplied a list of great ideas, and suggestions. Now I have to wade through it, and put it where it's easily available to those who might use it.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

nachomc said:


> HAHA you're old!!!
> 
> Aw, crap, I turn 31 this weekend


LOL, happy birthday.


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## Fuglio (Jul 15, 2011)

Ill make this easy. Most people on this board spend what most others would consider "too much" on bikes. You can get a perfectly fine bike for $300. ... i dont know why you keep pushing the issue. The first three or four replies covered everthing. You come back to proclaim who had the best response and is worthy of your never ending follow up questions. Your either trolling or an idiot.


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## crewjones (Aug 24, 2007)

is this a test?


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## Larry_K (Jul 10, 2010)

Flying-Monkey said:


> I think there will have to be a thread (if there isn't already) where the different components can be divided, and the value assessments can be assigned. My goal here, is to assemble the info you guys have given to me and make it understandable and easily available to other new riders.


I like what you're shooting for and it's great in theory but there are so many different possible component mixes on an entry level bike that it would likely throw most beginners into an information overload and could easily end up being counterproductive as to what you're trying to do.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Fuglio said:


> Ill make this easy. Most people on this board spend what most others would consider "too much" on bikes. You can get a perfectly fine bike for $300. ... i dont know why you keep pushing the issue. The first three or four replies covered everthing. You come back to proclaim who had the best response and is worthy of your never ending follow up questions. Your either trolling or an idiot.


He's compiling information to make a full beginners guide.


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## Larry_K (Jul 10, 2010)

nachomc said:


> He's compiling information to make a full beginners guide.


Now it makes sense, my responses could have been much more helpful had I known the true purpose.


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

I think more specific advice would be more useful and helpful if you're making a newbie guide.

Might want to ask in the specific forums about the different tiers. eg. a breakdown of dart > tora > recon > reba etc. which ones are coil, air, etc. Or link to a breakdown.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

Fuglio said:


> Ill make this easy. Most people on this board spend what most others would consider "too much" on bikes. You can get a perfectly fine bike for $300. ... i dont know why you keep pushing the issue. The first three or four replies covered everthing. You come back to proclaim who had the best response and is worthy of your never ending follow up questions. Your either trolling or an idiot.


While I appreciate your input, and it's added value to all who read this thread, I have to point out, it's not that I kept pushing the issue. I merely responded to the people who took the time to add their views to the question.

Trolling is usually done by someone posting an initial question, and sitting back to watch the turmoil that ensues. Or they try to add controversy to keep, or intensify said turmoil. I have done neither. I have been rather positive to both the friendly, and less than friendly contributions here.

As to idiot. You could be very correct, at least according to my wife.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

Larry_K said:


> I like what you're shooting for and it's great in theory but there are so many different possible component mixes on an entry level bike that it would likely throw most beginners into an information overload and could easily end up being counterproductive as to what you're trying to do.


I fully agree. I do not see that as a conversation that would be well suited to the beginner's area.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

nachomc said:


> He's compiling information to make a full beginners guide.


Full beginner's guide! Ha. I am far from that ambitious. A few pages, a chapter at best. But nothing as lofty as the full guide.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

bob13bob said:


> I think more specific advice would be more useful and helpful if you're making a newbie guide.
> 
> Might want to ask in the specific forums about the different tiers. eg. a breakdown of dart > tora > recon > reba etc. which ones are coil, air, etc. Or link to a breakdown.


I wasn't aiming for anything quite as extensive as that. I was wanting some advice on how to pick a bike beyond the "pay more get more" answer.

I wanted to know what exactly is a more expensive bike going to give a new rider that a budget one wouldn't while they were learning what they liked, why they liked it, and most importantly IF they liked riding at all. Not many will be willing to spend a grand on a hobby they might not stick with.

I will try to consolidate the answers (back in the first post) I thought best answered the questions I had in mind, even if I didn't articulate the well enough in my postings.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

Flying-Monkey said:


> I wasn't aiming for anything quite as extensive as that. I was wanting some advice on how to pick a bike beyond the "pay more get more" answer.


I can understand your frustration. The bike industry tends to focus on hype and emotional appeal in differentiating their products. Hard facts can be hard to find. Bike shop sales people often aren't able to articulate differences between products, and why one might be better suited than another for a given application.

Here, from SRAM's website, are the descriptions for two forks:

Reba: "Bike shops love Reba. And everybody else, too. Reba is super consistent, durable and easy to service. ... "

XC: "... The XC series is a new line of entry level forks - stiff, performance-oriented and available with TurnKey lockout and travel up to 120mm. ..."

No help whatsoever here. If I want a stiff and performance-oriented fork, I should buy the XC, right? But if I want to make the bike shop happy (why?), then I should buy the Reba. Heck, it almost sounds like the XC might be the better fork. We all want performance, right? The XC's got it. The Reba does not.

So I understand, I think, some of the frustration behind the original post.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

Flying-Monkey said:


> Simply telling them to buy a good radio upfront is the best investment they can make, is just going to go over their heads, unless you can make them realize the value of that piece of equipment.


Ha, I recently built my first foamie and against even my own advice I bought a cheap radio to get me in the air until I could afford a Spectrum and I certainly regret it. The plane is fun but I've spent tenfold more time on the ground and in my basement trying to "program" the damn radio than I have flying. So I understand your point quite well, but you must see the difficulty of explaining value for parts. You can only say "it's field programmable, has model memory, and dual rates" so many different ways. If someone can't link these features to how it relates to their experience then there comes a point where it is difficult to explain why any further.

I'd like to help you, I really would; but with such vague and open ended questions it's hard to give a straight answer. Think of posing your questions such that we can really pin down what you might be asking. Think of suggesting that someone upgrade their radio to one with dual rates then that person follows up with "why would I want dual rates?". That's the sort of question that can be answered very accurately.

I don't agree with anyone who says that you can't learn anything about a bike from a parking lot ride. You learn an infinite amount more about a bike from riding it then you will from reading about it on the internet. Steering precision and speed, weight, geometry, functionality of the components (keeping in mind that new bikes usually need a tune-up not long after assembly), and the ability to compare and contrast to other bikes in back to back rides are all great things that can be learned through a simple test ride. You have a fantastic opportunity if the shop is letting you take some bikes on dirt and you should take as much advantage as you can.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect to my advice and what you're probably looking to get from advice here. Personally, I would function a bit better (as I'm sure everyone else here would) if we had an idea of a rough budget. I know it shouldn't matter as the advice would be universal, but there truly is a big difference (as that rad chart showed) between a $300 entry level bike and a $1K+ bike. If we're talking differences in the damping circuits of forks equipped on $300 vs a $500 then it's an awful small difference which probably won't create any differences in the long term riding experience. The fork will be harsh, create more chatter through your upper body, and make the wheel track less true as it bounces.and the fork flexes. While if you step up to a more expensive fork you will have stiffer fork legs which track more true, more adjustment options for your weight and preferences (often through air pressure instead of nearly useless preload adjustment) and will be easily rebuildable to keep it working well longer.



Flying-Monkey said:


> This is pretty much the exact opposite of the RC aircraft hobby. Certainly at the lower price points, at least. In those cases, they might have a good airframe, but they install some of the cheapest parts possible, and it's not uncommon to have to replace them. In those cases, you're better off buying just the airframe, and install your own components. You'll spend more in the long run, but you'll have a better all around experience.


Here I was getting sucked into the assumption that you were interested in an entry level bike. If you're not afraid of spending money and doing some serious bargain hunting then you can do exactly the same thing with a bike as you can with a RC plane. You'll never build a bike as inexpensively as the manufacturers can but you can really get into the details by spec'ing it yourself and end up with exactly what you want. The trick here is knowing exactly what you want in the first place and not getting sucked into the trap of buying things that you don't absolutely need.

For my current bike, I was planning on buying new cranks and all sorts of stuff straight away before it even arrived at my door. I convinced myself not to do that because I could just replace things as they broke and here I am entering its third year of life with nothing having been replaced on it yet (well, except tires, chain, and grips). Moral of the story? We here as residents of the internet have a tendency to recommend very nice stuff when average stuff will do just fine. I didn't need the e13 crank because my SLX crank rocks the house; but would I ride a Deore crank? Nope, completely different technology that comes at a different price point. So once again, we hit the budget issue. If you have e13 money but don't want to spend it all then you should get an SLX crank but if you don't have SLX money then putting something less expensive than even Deore would be appropriate.

I'm just rambling on and on now, but here's what I think would be helpful to everyone:

Budget (getting the hint?)
Where do you ride? Or where do you see yourself riding most?
What do you see as your upper limit of riding? Do you think you'll be doing trips with that bike to meccas like Moab or riding DH at your local ski hill?
What is your favoirte kind of riding/place to ride? 

I spent a decade as a ski instructor and while I really like helping people learn (if you notice, almost all of my posts are made in the beginner's forum) I also have a tendency to try and steer people to their goals instead of just making chit-chat. The way I see it, your goal is to get a bike and my goal is to help you understand everything you feel you need to understand to do that. If you would prefer to continue on the winding path then you can ignore my questions; it won't bother me. I understand not everyone is looking for the answer, many just enjoy the journey. I'm not usually that person. If you'd like to start narrowing your focus so we can start discussing exactly what each part will bring to the table at a higher or lower price then we need some more information. If you're a bike path rider then discussing the benefits of high and low speed compression circuits won't be of any use to you and if you're an aggressive technical rider then talking about the benefits of lockout on low end Suntour forks is equally useless. That sort of focus is important for every part of the bicycle from the frame to the brakes and each has its own important details to discuss.

Example: let's say you're an aggressive trail rider who likes technical challenges. Looking only at the frame of the bike you would want a more slack head angle to slow the steering down and make steep approaches more manageable without risking OTB, the ability to run a longer travel fork, and you may or may not like short chainstays (another personal preference thing which can easily be discussed with pros and cons). If you were to buy a bike made for XC racing well it might be made of the same materials and cost the same but it would be completely different to the frame we discussed before (we would probably call that an AM HT or All Mountain Hard Tail). But when different people start suggesting a frame to you it might be an XC bike or maybe an AM bike depending on what they think you want to do or even what they prefer to do (my propensity to suggesting AM bikes comes out a lot for that reason). If you are steering us toward what you want instead of the other way around it will lead to better information for you to make some decisions.

Good luck on your search!


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Actually, I think that some information about the different forks could be really helpful. They can be a pretty expensive item to replace, and have a huge effect on how a bike rides.

Many RS forks are best thought of as a chassis that can accept different internals. So without getting too far into technical details, one can break them down into forks that are unacceptably flexy, marginal, and stiff enough for an aggressive, heavy rider, and forks that ship with disposable internals not worth replacing, disposable internals but replaceable with something better, or the something better already in place.

If I was to buy a new fork aftermarket, I'd try to choose the model that already has the right spring and damper for me. But the bike companies don't always see it my way, and even pretty high-end bikes sometimes ship with a lower-level damper than I'd prefer. That's a good piece of information, because it would be worth something to me to get a bike that comes out of the box with a fork that I can tune up, maintain, and not worry about for the life of the bike vs. a fork that's going to need an upgrade later or a fork that I'll have to throw out later.

Aside from SRAM vs. Shimano and 9-speed vs. 10-speed, drivetrain parts can be replaced piecemeal and their individual costs are a lot more reasonable. I guess brakes can be somewhat on par with forks if it's relatively more expensive brakes and relatively more mid-range or inexpensive forks.

Hub types are another biggie where there's some variability between companies and the degree of "worth keeping" is all over the place. When a hub goes, it's time for a new wheel and that often snowballs into a new set. $$$ So they're worth mentioning, and starting off with either Shimanos or another brand's sealed bearing hubs means a longer service life.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

JonathanGennick said:


> I can understand your frustration. The bike industry tends to focus on hype and emotional appeal in differentiating their products. Hard facts can be hard to find. Bike shop sales people often aren't able to articulate differences between products, and why one might be better suited than another for a given application.
> 
> Here, from SRAM's website, are the descriptions for two forks:
> 
> ...


I promise, I had no frustration at the time... 

I have my entry level bike. I will be looking for my "next level" bike to replace it, at some point not too far away. Many of the questions I asked, I feel are relevant to that next step as well. Why pay 1K plus, when a $500 to $700 bike will do.

I was talking to the bike mechanic at the LBS. I've had a chance to talk to him a bit, and even get a ride in with him once. He actually said the suspension is the most important element of the whole bike system, for ride enjoyment. It makes sense, you have two main contact points, your hands and your feet (ok, 4, but you get what I mean, 5 if you ride from the seat a lot.) Your legs are made to take some shock and abuse, but your hands, wrists, elbows and shoulders aren't. Also the front wheel is the first point of contact with whatever terrain you're on. A good suspension system takes (some, lot, all of) the shock and jarring out of the rough spots.

Weight and ride seems to be the two points that will make a difference when out on the trail. A lighter bike will help you get back up to speed without the strain on your legs, allowing you to ride longer. This applies to flat riding, not just places with hills. So, with this in mind, I can see (and feel) the benefit of a little more money spent for a lighter system.

I apologize if I came off as frustrated in my posts. I promise, I was not. I can be a little detail oriented, and while I'm still a beginner, I'd like to try to ask the questions I can from this view point, and get the most accurate and helpful answers I can, so the next guy who might look for the information, will have it more readily available. With some of the replies threads like this can generate, the short, rough responses ("Because, more money means better product, why are you asking so many questions, are you a troll or an idiot, use the search feature, RTFM, etc), are more than enough to intimidate someone who doesn't like to ask for help to begin with, to wander off and make a bad buying choice, because they happened across the wrong person on a forum.

Fortunately I am comfortable enough in my ignorance, and have enough time on forums, to not let such things bother me.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

Flying-Monkey said:


> I have my entry level bike. I will be looking for my "next level" bike to replace it, at some point not too far away. Many of the questions I asked, I feel are relevant to that next step as well. Why pay 1K plus, when a $500 to $700 bike will do.


Why will you be looking for your next bike if you your current bike will do? Now if there is some reason you feel you want to buy the "next level", then that reason is the answer to your original question -- it is why you would choose to spend more.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

zebrahum said:


> Ha, I recently built my first foamie and against even my own advice I bought a cheap radio to get me in the air until I could afford a Spectrum and I certainly regret it. The plane is fun but I've spent tenfold more time on the ground and in my basement trying to "program" the damn radio than I have flying. So I understand your point quite well, but you must see the difficulty of explaining value for parts. You can only say "it's field programmable, has model memory, and dual rates" so many different ways. If someone can't link these features to how it relates to their experience then there comes a point where it is difficult to explain why any further.


Are you on the Flite Test forums? If you haven't checked those guys out, you really should. They are an awesome group/show that is super beginner friendly, while fun and interesting enough for the experienced pilot.



zebrahum said:


> I'd like to help you, I really would; but with such vague and open ended questions it's hard to give a straight answer. Think of posing your questions such that we can really pin down what you might be asking. Think of suggesting that someone upgrade their radio to one with dual rates then that person follows up with "why would I want dual rates?". That's the sort of question that can be answered very accurately.


I think I was able to use some of your comments in the first post. If you haven't gone back and read it, please do. Let me know if I missed anything.

Link... http://forums.mtbr.com/9224248-post1.html



zebrahum said:


> I don't agree with anyone who says that you can't learn anything about a bike from a parking lot ride. You learn an infinite amount more about a bike from riding it then you will from reading about it on the internet. Steering precision and speed, weight, geometry, functionality of the components (keeping in mind that new bikes usually need a tune-up not long after assembly), and the ability to compare and contrast to other bikes in back to back rides are all great things that can be learned through a simple test ride. You have a fantastic opportunity if the shop is letting you take some bikes on dirt and you should take as much advantage as you can.


I agree, you can get a feel for it. But how it's going to handle soft sand, roots, rocks, tight turns, spreads of pine needle cast, etc., can't be done on asphalt.



zebrahum said:


> I think there's a bit of a disconnect to my advice and what you're probably looking to get from advice here. Personally, I would function a bit better (as I'm sure everyone else here would) if we had an idea of a rough budget. I know it shouldn't matter as the advice would be universal, but there truly is a big difference (as that rad chart showed) between a $300 entry level bike and a $1K+ bike. If we're talking differences in the damping circuits of forks equipped on $300 vs a $500 then it's an awful small difference which probably won't create any differences in the long term riding experience. The fork will be harsh, create more chatter through your upper body, and make the wheel track less true as it bounces.and the fork flexes. While if you step up to a more expensive fork you will have stiffer fork legs which track more true, more adjustment options for your weight and preferences (often through air pressure instead of nearly useless preload adjustment) and will be easily rebuildable to keep it working well longer.
> 
> 
> > I think the rough budget is hard to pin down. I bet there's lots of people (from college students, to working dads with a family to take care of) that look at that $200 Walmart bike and say, "that's about as much as I'm willing to spend to try this out."
> ...


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

JonathanGennick said:


> Why will you be looking for your next bike if you your current bike will do? Now if there is some reason you feel you want to buy the "next level", then that reason is the answer to your original question -- it is why you would choose to spend more.


I love my Giant Sedona. It's a great 14 year old+ bike. It's also a 14 year old+ bike, that I guiltily left in the rain the first year or so I had it. The cables were shot, and I used it as a beater get around bike, with the front derailer wedged to keep me in the largest gear.

I recently decided to spruce it up, all new cables, replaced the tires, cleaned, polished, and painted where needed. I replaced the chain and the rear cassette, and it's riding pretty good. It's not shifting perfect, and it's not a "perfect" fit for me But it's an awesome entry level bike, and I'm learning what I like and don't like.

Why am I looking now? Because, as pointed out, there's a lot to learn. I am asking from the beginner's point, and working my way up. I don't want to be one of those who tries to jump in mid stream, or advance too quickly. I figure getting the basics, and the "why's" of it makes for a better foundation, for when I am ready to take the next step.

Also, I'm a pay in cash kind of guy. I want to be sure about my choice before I make that financial commitment. It will take me a little while to rebuild the hole in my "fun things" bank account, so I can use that savings to buy a bike, and I'm using that time to learn what I can.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Flying-Monkey said:


> Weight and ride seems to be the two points that will make a difference when out on the trail. A lighter bike will help you get back up to speed without the strain on your legs, allowing you to ride longer. This applies to flat riding, not just places with hills. So, with this in mind, I can see (and feel) the benefit of a little more money spent for a lighter system.


Actually lightening a bike is a highly overrated pursuit.

When you accelerate or climb, you accelerate the entire system. I don't know what you weigh. I'm around 155 lb right now.  I'm not sure what my bike weighs, probably a bit under thirty. But I don't ride naked, and I have tools and water with me. So let's call the whole system 190 lb. In the units of the people who care about weight, that's 86,182.6 g. Extra figures left in because even though I know that I can only justify the first one significant figure with my guesstimate, or two significant figures if I were less lazy about getting weights on things, people get obsessive about 40 g here and there and weigh things down to tenths of a gram.

If my bike does indeed come in a little under 30 lb, with a fair application of money, I can knock 5 lb off. From a 190 lb system - BFD. The difference it will make in my climbs is going to be smaller than my normal deviation on those climbs depending on how I'm feeling that day.

Now I'm going to contradict myself a little. There's a definite difference in handling a heavy bike and a light bike. I think there's even a special difference from rims and tires, which is what people are referring to when they talk about rotating weight. Frankly, I don't think I can tell when I'm going slowly. So on a climb - bfd. But I do notice it when I'm flowing on turny singletrack, and I could swear it was easier for me to keep my bike under control at higher speed when I was doing one of my favorite descents last weekend, having recently arrived at a wheels/tubes/tires combination that I think comes in a little lighter, and definitely has better grip. (another piece of compromise - grippy tires are usually heavier; light tires often make some compromises in width and tread depth.)

I think the reason it matters in terms of handling is that while I'm trying to keep the center of mass of the whole system going on as smooth a path as possible, if I need to turn, I need to move the entire bike relative to myself to get the tires in the right place to turn me. So while I may not be moving or accelerating my 155 lb self very much, I'm putting the bike a lot of different places. The more quickly I can do that and the more quickly I can restabilize it, the more quickly I can ride a piece of trail while staying in control. This is one of the motivators for the stiffness obsession too - it's very easy to move something very light and very stiff, and very easy to stop it. It's not so easy to get something heavy and floppy moving, and once it's going, it's difficult to make it stop.

Ironically, the people who stand to gain the most in terms of their riding experience from taking weight off the bike may be the people who use ski lifts and pickup trucks to do all their climbing.


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## bob7 (Apr 18, 2012)

I want to say thank you for this thread. (I started to in an earlier post but I was on my phone and something happened). 

I am that new guy you speak of. I as looking for a bike simply to ride around town. started passing by the bikes at the two "x"marts while shopping. super tight budget, no intention of purchasing anything for a few months. a few weeks went by, I was looking on craigslist at stuff, saw all these bikes at $300 and up as way over my head. but started getting intrigued by the mtb style and offroad-ness. I talked to my LBS on facebook about used models. and he was helpful and I will likely stop in there soon.

back to my point though... I feel like most new comers will either have a dept store bike or buy a dept store bike as a commuter and find themself wanting to get offroad. 
which is where I initially started, I ended up getting for free, a very old dept store bike that is claimed to be for offroad use but is clearly not worthy of even the simply unpaved obstacle. its super heavy, terrible brakes, 15 speeds, super heavy (yea I needed to say it twice). I cleaned it up, changed the cables, and just started riding it. but it is very clear at the first sign of uneven pavement, I am deeply in need of something better suited for offroad.

the local guys here welcome any bike and skill level. the trails here are flat and forgiving. but still, a "good" dept store bike wont last much longer than a year with moderate use (twice a month)

so by then they will have some real time experience with trails, see what other people are riding, and hopefully talked to them, or tired stuff out, and know what to look for or need to buy a better made bike. 

a person prepared to jump into the sport full force would be expecting to spend $300-500 on a entry level bike. which I understand now after heavy forum use for the past week. but without the knowledge of the sport and equipment, a total green rider isnt even aware of the equipment levels and understand the necessity of a bike store services for tune ups and new parts. 

i hope that wasnt too long.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

bob13bob said:


> I think more specific advice would be more useful and helpful if you're making a newbie guide.
> 
> Might want to ask in the specific forums about the different tiers. eg. a breakdown of dart > tora > recon > reba etc. which ones are coil, air, etc. Or link to a breakdown.


Hi bob, thanks.

Yeah, that would be helpful, for someone who was THOROUGHLY researching their first bike.

I wanted to get more of the general idea of what to look for over all, and what to avoid. Why one price point was better than another. To me, if I was starting from scratch, I would hope that a $500 bicycle would be a good quality machine. So what benefits would a beginner see from jumping to almost double what they thought was a "high" price to start with.

I am sure that a first time "real" bike buyer, who hadn't done any online, or magazine research would do a double take or two, at the "low end" price ranges of bikes in a shop.

I know I did. But, with some research, and the information here and from the guy at the shop, I am starting to see the benefits of the higher priced equipment.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

Ok, off to work, but I leave you with a shot from this morning's ride...


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## austanian (Jun 15, 2011)

Going into forks will be very difficult for a beginners guide. I was recently at the bike shop looking for a bike for my wife and you generally have to get out of entry level prices to get a bike with a decent fork. 

Suntour-> Dart/XC And now we have crossed the 1200 dollar range... 

Now I am a bigger and very strangely balanced guy when it comes to mtn biking, but those forks don't do their job for me. I am now looking for a recon - silver solo air. 

I am not sure it isn't better to just buy a 700 dollar bike knowing you will drop 250 on a new fork immediately. Oppose to spending a grand to get a better drive train with the same sh*tty fork. I think most people would rather have an acera drive train with a Recon fork, then a Alivo drive train with a dart. 

Consider that almost every part in the drive train can be replaced for around 50 bucks a piece for deore level components. This can be done slowly as stuff breaks. bb5s and bb7 breaks are cheap and are more then enough for most people.

Personally in some price ranges I think it is better to take a chance on an online bike and send it back if needed. (Even as a noob) In the sub 500 dollar range you can get deore level components online and in most lbs you have 1 bike to choose from with altus or tourney level components. The next big jump comes at 800 dollars from BD you can purchase a bike with x.9 derailers and a reba fork. I really think for those specs it might be worth it. You will not see a bike with those specs for under 1500 at an lbs.


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## junior1210 (Sep 9, 2011)

austanian said:


> Personally in some price ranges I think it is better to take a chance on an online bike and send it back if needed. (Even as a noob) In the sub 500 dollar range you can get deore level components online and in most lbs you have 1 bike to choose from with altus or tourney level components. The next big jump comes at 800 dollars from BD you can purchase a bike with x.9 derailers and a reba fork. I really think for those specs it might be worth it. You will not see a bike with those specs for under 1500 at an lbs.


As somebody who bought and currently ride a BD bike (Fantom 29 X-9), I'd agree with you except for one point, and that is the 90%/10% theory (most performance in a given sport is 90% person and 10% equipment). I bring this up because it's easy for people to get sucked into the "I'll ride better if I but X level parts", before even knowing what they are really doing and not sure of their actual starting level.

I've seen a lot of people saying, (in my short time on the forum), that one of the reasons they are getting back into riding is for fitness/weight loss (myself included), but where some people in late 20's-early 30's and are looking to lose 25-30 pounds but in generally good shape are starting at a higher than someone like me in their mid 40's and was looking to drop more than 100 #'s (which I did). The entry level bike for me needed to be a better bike than for the younger fitter guy's only if to survive my massive girth until I got to a more normal size . It's true that better specs are a factor in choosing a bike but if you're buying you first entry level bike, with little or no recent riding experience (like me), weather it's Altus level or XX level parts, you will still be huffing and puffing at the back of the pack 20 min into your first trail ride and you will stay there for immediate future. That's why I think it's incumbent on us as those who are (trying to) helping and giving advise to those who are newer in the sport ( in my case all 3 of them) to remind them that this will only be their first bike, and to use this bike to learn to ride, then after a while (6-9 months) decide if better parts will increase proficiency on the trails.

Buying online to get those better parts isn't a bad idea, and it certainly worked out for me, but I'm not gonna say that it's for everybody since I knew from the get go that I wanted to do most of my own work, and the other benefits of buying from LBS weren't a factor. So the upgrade in parts on my bike were a bonus, where some other new rider might need that LBS support far more than than they need better parts, even if it means they'll spend more money later, since if they have to buy a better fork will cost real cash but, not as much as finding out the type of riding they really enjoy the most requires a different type bike so will need to spend far more after dropping big cash up front for a "good" entry level bike.

What I'm trying to say (short version) is while better parts are important in a entry level bike, it's good to remember that it is an "entry level" bike, and going too far to get a great parts list isn't as important as getting a parts list that will allow the rider to learn and grow into their skills, and then give them a direction as to what to buy for a more long term enjoyment of the sport.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I think that looking only at the group of beginners who pay under $1000 and buy in a LBS is a very limiting perception. A lot of beginners spend the same on a used bike, and a lot of beginners are comfortable spending a lot more. So getting a nicer fork can be relevant.

I notice that some Konas and Fishers go to nicer forks a little faster than nicer drivetrains.


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## austanian (Jun 15, 2011)

Well what I was trying to say is that I would not buy online for a better drive train... I would buy for a better fork. A Reba is a 400 dollar fork and will make a huge difference on any bike entry level bike. Especially when compared to A suntour that you will get at an LBS.


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## Fuglio (Jul 15, 2011)

austanian said:


> Well what I was trying to say is that I would not buy online for a better drive train... I would buy for a better fork. A Reba is a 400 dollar fork and will make a huge difference on any bike entry level bike. Especially when compared to A suntour that you will get at an LBS.


Lets be nice to sr suntour. They seem to be coming out with decent products at prices that cant be beat. Give thier website a look.


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

austanian said:


> Going into forks will be very difficult for a beginners guide. I was recently at the bike shop looking for a bike for my wife and you generally have to get out of entry level prices to get a bike with a decent fork.
> 
> Suntour-> Dart/XC And now we have crossed the 1200 dollar range...
> 
> ...


Yep. I think "fit" can be adjusted with stem, handlebar, and seat post setback. Also. Riding around the block on a lbs bike is not thorough. I think its better to pay a premium to rent different bikes and hit trails with em, that way ppl know what diff lvl comp mean, and ht vs fs. With the money saved on going with an online bike, you can buy different cockpit afjustments.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I think that looking only at the group of beginners who pay under $1000 and buy in a LBS is a very limiting perception. A lot of beginners spend the same on a used bike, and a lot of beginners are comfortable spending a lot more. So getting a nicer fork can be relevant.
> 
> I notice that some Konas and Fishers go to nicer forks a little faster than nicer drivetrains.


You say limiting, while I agree it's limited, I doubt that there's that sizable percentage of pure newb that has done extensive research, and is willing to drop more than a grand on their first bike. I will admit having no statistics or data to back my upcoming statement, but... I bet the majority of the people who are just starting out don't know the difference between a box store bike or one of better but still "entry level" quality. I have done a little research, and I felt that the box store bike can't be as good, but then you see something like that Iron Horse selling walmart, with 29 inch wheels and disc breaks, and you think "wow, that looks nice".

Maybe this is a "rich man's sport" or this forum caters to folks of a higher income, and I accidentally snuck in an open service door, or something . But speaking from my own experience, a $1000 is a lot of money for a "bike." At least until educated in what you're buying and why. Then it's easy to see that this price just gets you a really good piece of equipment (not top of the line, but all that the average entry level rider will really need).


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

The title "Entry Level Bike Pricing, What Am I getting For $__" does not mention this is towards first time bike buyers. Having a write-up of different tiers and prices would be beneficial to more than just beginners.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

bob13bob said:


> The title "Entry Level Bike Pricing, What Am I getting For $__" does not mention this is towards first time bike buyers. Having a write-up of different tiers and prices would be beneficial to more than just beginners.


Touche... 

Yeah, and I think that would be a great thread. I'll have to look to see if there's one written already, or if there isn't, you guys can help me make one with more detail in a new thread.

For now, I'll try to keep it "simple" and make the corrections you suggested to the title.


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## junior1210 (Sep 9, 2011)

Oh I'll readily admit that a nicer fork can be a real sell point (the reason I bought the bike I have is because of having the Reba RL fork, which I was sure could handle my weight), I just would hate to see people who are not sure which way is up yet get hammered in the wallet buying a parts list a pro racer would envy, when lower level parts would be more than enough for them eg: buying XX group parts when X9 is plenty good for non racing weekend warrior stuff and far less expensive.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2012)

I am trying to buy a new bike, bike buy is so difficult. I never realized there where so many options.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

haylo921 said:


> I am trying to buy a new bike, bike buy is so difficult. I never realized there where so many options.


zebrahum did a great job making a list of the first things you should ask yourself before looking for a bike.

I've paraphrased/edited it down a little to three simple questions.

What is your budget?
What kind of terrain do you expect to do most of your riding in? Are you in hilly rocky country, flat sandy spots, mixed terrain with paved bike paths and mowed service roads?
What are your riding goals? Is it just for fitness? Are you wanting to move on to more difficult levels of riding? Do you have dreams of being a sponsored racer?

It can be found with more info here...
http://forums.mtbr.com/9224248-post1.html

Knowing the answers to these questions, will make it easier for other people either online, or at the LBS to help you with the rest.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2012)

Thank you, these are the types of questions I have been asking myself. I know I don't want anyting to pricey becuse I am just starting and I eventually would like to also get a road bike. I am looking at 3 options right now:
1) Raleigh Eva 4.0 $499 rides nice, fits well, have to raise the sit a bit but I think that will be the case for me on most bikes.
2) Jamis Trail X2: rides nice, I don't think the gears changed as well as they did on the Raleigh but since it's a 2011 i can get it for $420
3) Specialized Myca HT: going to try it out today, the bike store offers a great price $475 below typical MSRP of 520.

I guess my thing is I just want to make sure I am getting a good bike for the money. I know there are much more pricer bikes, but I think this is where I want to start off. In terms of where I will ride there are some awesome trails here in San Antonio that are a mixture of paved and unpaved. I don't see myself going to crazy on the trails but I want to be able to go on them if I want to.


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## runnyeggsham (Apr 3, 2012)

Some examples of bikes would be nice. For example, if someone asks me what a dependable all around car or which companies are known for good cars.I'd say Toyota or Honda. For good cars, I'd say the Civic, Accord, Camry, and Corolla, and go for price and function there.

Anyway, that's my 0.02. Being a newbie with bikes, this is what I would like to see and probably would be helpful to others. So more than price, I think the examples that people give are way more helpful.

Like this thread.
http://forums.mtbr.com/beginners-corner/your-entry-level-mtb-pics-upgrades-446424-73.html


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2012)

After riding the specialized I went with that one. It felt the best and seemed to fit me the best. Thanks for all the helpful information that is here.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

That's great haylo, make sure to post some images of that bike with some mud on it!


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## virus (Apr 1, 2012)

If time is on your side, then experience is the best ally. Before getting an entry-level MTB, I bought myself a department store MTB ($115), which lasted for 6 years. One thing became relevant for me. Front suspension. Even with a hardtail, a decent suspended fork goes a long way in improving ride comfort (along with seats and general fit of the bike). Hence, the fork was replaced with a Suntour M8040 75mm travel. Now, I've got a Hardrock with a 100mm Fox Float. What I'm saying is, get a dept. store bike (if cost is an issue), build some experience about maybe a year ( a beginner right? so ride lightly and safely or you'll build scars too). By that time, you'll have some more or less idea of what you'll want in a ride. (Just my 1 peso)


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## chosos (Apr 20, 2012)

its too bad we couldn't put together a guide stating what you should expect to get at a certain price point and even have some "fair" used prices listed with some of the bikes too. 

For example - I picked up a 2003 Rockhopper FSR Comp last week for $275. That is has an A1 Stumpjumper frame. I feel like that bike is fairly solid, and I am more than happy rocking out the V-Brakes.


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## Flying-Monkey (Apr 15, 2012)

I've thought about it chosos. I haven't learned enough to do it myself. I have been picking up some good info on what are the differences and why they would matter to someone like me.


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## HawkGX (May 24, 2012)

As a noob to MTB, this has been an interesting thread to follow. Like a lot of forum threads though, it seems to have gotten off-track (awful pun intended) from the OP's original questions/intent at times.

If I read the OP hypothetical scenario correctly, I'd say my current situation is a close fit. I'm about 3 months into the sport (sort of fell into it one day... going "off-road" from one of the paved paths into the woods at a local park). Hadn't really ridden for a couple years prior to getting started, and only had a cheap Wally bike (Mongoose XR-75, I'm embarrassed to admit). So now I'm hooked on new sport (at 44-years-old) with my 15-year-old son catching the bug along with me. We ride as often as as my schedule allows, trying out different local trails and attempting to build some skills as we go. We kept telling ourselves that we'd stick out this season with the Wally bikes and look to buy our first real MTB rides next year. We're both pretty dedicated to doing as much research as possible before making significant purchases so we figured we'd use this riding season to figure out what to buy next year.

Well, it's 3 months later... we absolutely love riding trail, and have beaten the tar out of the Wally bikes so much that we broke down and ordered our 2013 Trek Mambas from the LBS this afternoon! Don't know if our entry-level experience will help shed light on this thread our not, but here's a breakdown of our thinking and the buying process:

(keep in mind that all these considerations were complicated a bit by the fact that we intended to buy TWO entry-level bikes at the same time)

*#1 Consideration: Budget (too obvious???)*
• Was initially locked into a $500 to $700 per bike budget; given that we're both new to the sport
• After Consideration #2 (see below), my budget got bumped up a bit once I had a better idea of the kinds of trails we'd be riding and what I was learning about various component levels (mostly in terms of the forks and brakes)

*#2 Consideration: What to Buy?*
• Here where we live, Trek and Specialized are, IMHO, the most recognized names, so I think it was natural for us, as newcomers, to gravitate toward those two brands.
• There are a couple of LBS I found that carry Giant and Cannondale, but I have a few friends that own Trek and/or Specialized so their experiences definitely influenced me, and I didn't really strongly consider those 2 bikes in the end.
• Also a couple of big box stores around that carried other brands (like Diamondback, for instance), but it seemed easier to find feedback on the "bigger" name bikes in our case. I like being able to get as much info as I can to make a significant buy.
• 26 vs. 29er: after our initial visits to a couple of LBS, where we first learned about 29ers, and even lot-tested a few, we would stop and pick the brains of different bikers on the trails we rode. Between the test rides, these first-hand rider opinions, and what I picked up on forums like this, I felt confident that I'd be pursuing a 29er for my entry-level bike. My son wasn't so sure, but he drank the Kool-aid eventually.
• I think what helped a lot in deciding WHAT to buy was that we rode a bunch of different trails here in our area. That gave us an idea of the kinds of trails we enjoyed riding, which helped us dial in to what kind of bikes (26 vs. 29er) and what level of components made the most sense for WHERE we'd be riding.
• It seemed the prevailing online opinion, is that it usually makes more sense to spend more
up-front for a bike, vs. buying "down" a level and putting money into upgrades later. I'm a guy who generally likes to "buy high" (i.e., spend a little more $$$ for a higher-quality product up-front), knowing that I tend to hang onto them as they are for awhile. I consider what the longevity of my purchase is likely to be, and so may spend more initially.
• So what did we seriously look at? In Specialized, we considered the Hardrock Sport Disc 29 and the Rockhopper 29. In the Trek line, our first thought was the GF Marlin. We lot-tested each of these bikes at a couple of different LBS. But we saw a lot of comments on the Suntour forks offered in these bikes as being more "recreational" in quality. Not necessarily that they were bad forks, but given the trails we'd been riding, that they might not be the optimal choice. But in lot-testing rides, we both just liked the ride and "feel" of the Trek Marlin better than the Specialized models we rode. The Trek geometry seemed to make the bikes ride lighter than the Specialized. 
• All that lead us to zeroing in on the Trek 29ers. Between the test ride results, and after playing component bingo among all those models, it seemed that we got more bike for the $$$ in the Trek line than we could in the Specialized line. So we liked the Marlin a lot, but were kind of hung up on the Suntour fork issue. The LBS rep suggested the Mamba: RockShox XC32 fork AND hydro brakes, being (relevant) upgrades from the Marlin. Test rode a couple of Mambas that day and felt we had finally found made our entry-level bike decision. Just glad we didn't take the next step up and test ride a Cobia!!!

#3 Consideration: Where to Buy?
• Our first couple of stops were a couple LBS around town; wanted to actually be able
to see and handle a range of bike models, plus have a rep pitch the bikes/brands and
answer our initial questions right away. Then we did a few parking lot rides to get a feel
between different options: 26 vs. 29er, V-brake vs. mech vs. hydro, travel distance, 
geometry, etc.
• The idea of having my LBS handle warranty work, offering the free break-in adjustments, plus
1-year or lifetime tune-ups had some definite value to me, as I'm not comfortable with doing
those things myself.
• I'm pretty comfortable with online purchasing in general , so the idea of BikesDirect, Nashbar, etc.
didn't bother me initially. However, I'm not a mechanically inclined guy so the thought
of either handling the final assembly/setup myself, or paying an LBS to do it made me back off
the online idea fairly quickly.
• There were 2 overriding factors in buying from the LBS that I ended up at: (1) free lifetime tune-ups
and (2) monetary incentives (they offered some store gift cards/credit; plus 20 percent accessory
discount on day of purchase, plus 10 percent off accessory purchases for life. Notice that I list
the free lifetime tune-ups first! That may not carry as much value to others, but for me, I think
it definitely carries enough value to take my business to the LBS.

Sorry for the long post... a lot of the hot air above can be boiled down to:
1. Knowing yourself (mechanically-inclined or not... in need of LBS mech services?)
2. Knowing where you like to ride (what type of trails are you going to spend the MOST time on? The "bang for your buck" argument won't hold much water if you're NOT going to be using the full capabilities of your higher-end components on a REGULAR basis)
3. Know your budgetary limits (kind of hard to really enjoy that killer new bike if you find yourself having to work a lot of overtime hours to try & pay for it).

Can't wait for the new bikes to arrive, to put all the above speculation to the test!


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## Sickmak90 (May 27, 2012)

Buying a new bike can be a little overweening at first. I did a ton of research before buying my last bike. After it was all over I was set on a mamba...until I found a good deal on a cannondale rush used on c-list. 

Try not to get caught up with your gear and just have a good time. The mamba is a very good bike.


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## sjhiker (Apr 25, 2008)

GOTA said:


> Most people here will probably tell you that they under-bought the first time and wish they hadn't because you really don't know what you want until you've been out there 20 times. My advice is to try everything you can before you buy and then by the top of the range for the model you like. For example if you decide a Trek 3 series I'd pay the $620 for the Trek 3900 instead of $480 for the Trek 3500. That price difference is cheap for the better components that you get.


Gota,

While I agree there's plenty of people that after deciding that riding is something they want to seriously pursue, there's an equally large number of people that have "garage queens". Meaning, they plunked down $1000 for their first bike and then went out for a few rides and for whatever reason, the bike now sits in the garage collecting dust. This is no different than exercise equipment, guitars or whatever that takes time to get good at (building cardio for example), or getting back on the bike after taking a nasty DH fall.


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