# Guide RS Levers not Returning: Replaced Under Warranty



## dusadus (May 21, 2014)

For those having issues with Guide brake levers not returning, my LBS got SRAM to warranty them and also upgraded them (RS to RSC). Anecdotally they had 3 warranty repairs including mine that week. So far they feel great. Not certain if it's a redesign or a recall, but if you are having similar issues take it to your LBS. My brakes started to act up ~9 months since I bought them. Bleeding and brake pad replacement and piston cleaning did nothing.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Interesting! My left RSC lever just started to develop the same. Sometimes after leaving the (cold) bike in direct sunlight for a few minutes the lever gets stuck or will only return very slowly. It usually gets better after a few minutes, so seems to be a weather/temperature related issue


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

It's an O ring issue in the lever they are aware of. Had mine replaced under warranty without question. Temperature does seem to exacerbate the issue, pouring ice cold water on mine would momentarily fix it.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

maybe Sram is gonna supply me with a thermosbottle to carry ice cold water with me


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## nauc (Sep 9, 2009)

my Juicy 3s did this when it was hot outside. ill never use Sram brakes again. theyld lock up when it was hot outside, and wouldnt release until it cooled down at night

lame


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## young116 (Apr 18, 2011)

dusadus said:


> For those having issues with Guide brake levers not returning, my LBS got SRAM to warranty them and also upgraded them (RS to RSC). Anecdotally they had 3 warranty repairs including mine that week. So far they feel great. Not certain if it's a redesign or a recall, but if you are having similar issues take it to your LBS. My brakes started to act up ~9 months since I bought them. Bleeding and brake pad replacement and piston cleaning did nothing.


The same thing is happening to me. Sounds very common after reading up on it. I have a few questions...

How long did the warranty process take?
Did they warranty both brakes or just the one?
Did they also upgrade the rotors to fit the new brakes?

Thanks for the post!


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## young116 (Apr 18, 2011)

Incase anyone else is having the same problem. 

Mine was definitely caused by heat. When the bike was stored in the AC there was no problem at all. In the bike shop the brake would act perfect. However, by the time I would get to the trail the rear brake is back to being stuck closed with no spring back from the lever. Sometimes leaving the brake locked in place. Fun! Especially when it happens halfway on a there and back trail!

Just dropped mine off at a LBS for a warranty claim. Hope they can handle mine too!


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## EABiker (Jun 24, 2004)

Has anyone been able to have this problem resolved without going through a LBS? My new, (400 miles), Guide R's will stick if left out in the sun. Pouring cool water on the lever fixes it every time. I would rather not be without my bike while going through the warranty process, plus I got my bike from Bikes Direct, so I am sure that the LBS won't put me on their priority list! What is the actual problem/fix? Is it just O rings, or is the piston/housing faulty? I did properly bleed it with no change in it's symptoms.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Yes I do carry two bottles now. One for me, the other for my Guide. Like me, she is very thirsty when it's hot outside


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## socalntv (Jan 26, 2010)

Interesting I found this thread -- I just had an issue yesterday. Brakes Guide R's pretty much completely failed in a dangerous defect kind of way. Modulation was way off, front lever stuck to bars, and the adjuster rotated to lock it in -- I went over the bars and smashed into the crunchy sagebrush -- which thank God it was there, it broke my fall and I only have scrapes, bruises and a little whiplash.

This is a design defect! If all Avid has to do is replace, they are getting out ahead -- some people may get more injured and sue. NEVER had an issue like this with Shimanos, been mountainbiking for 25 years.

If you look at the photo, you'll see the adjuster has rotated to lock the lever in place -- It's locked in place, I can't get it out without prying it, and the brake is hydrolocked.


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## abroadaw (Dec 1, 2005)

I'm so glad I found this thread! I am having the same issue with my Guide RS brakes on my one-year-old YT Capra. I started to notice it last fall (when it was still warm in TX), but assumed that I just needed to rebleed and clean the caliper. I did just that this winter (completely replaced the fluid and followed the service manual), and it seemed to be a bit better, though never as good as new. As the season has progressed, I've noticed it more and more, and, of course, it is strongly correlated to the increasing temperatures. Particularly after a ride on the roof rack, in the sun. 

I'm in Austin, TX and just had my first 90+ degree ride of the season, and the levers were super slow on the return. Much worse on the rear brake than the front, but noticeable on both. After seeing this thread, I took my bike inside to the air conditioning. Checked this morning, and the levers felt perfectly normal. So strange. I don't think I ever would have diagnosed it as heat related until I found this thread. I'm certain no LBS around here would have figured that out either. I have a long, hot summer ahead of me and am not happy about this defect!

I've written to YT tech support and hope they help me out. I've already had two other SRAM products replaced under warranty: Reverb with blown seal and Pike with premature stanchion wear due to insufficient oil from the factory.


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## L3_jok3r (Feb 11, 2016)

Same thing here, 20 C slow return 25C et + very slow return and the levers get stuck. Send it to Sram got it back 10 days later, change parts in the front lever, now it worst, slow return at every temperatures and rear lever no change. Very disapointed, think about trow them in fire and dance around it for conjuring the bad luck...


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## eicca (May 9, 2014)

Just when I'm considering switching from Shimano, something like this comes up. Sorry SRAM.

Tested this out on a handful of demo bikes on display at a shop. Almost all of them had the sticky lever.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

I've encountered the issue too but it doesn't seem a widespread problem like the bite point glitch of the M8000 XT brakes.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

L3_jok3r said:


> Very disapointed, think about trow them in fire and dance around it for conjuring the bad luck...


you wouldn't be the first...


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## D396 (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm having the same issue with a set of DB5s. Took them apart to find the master cylinder was rubbing on the lever body and wearing down. Had to push the cylinder out with fluid, it wouldn't just pull out like it should.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

D396 said:


> I'm having the same issue with a set of DB5s. Took them apart to find the master cylinder was rubbing on the lever body and wearing down. Had to push the cylinder out with fluid, it wouldn't just pull out like it should.


interesting but not sure what you mean,
how can the cylinder rub against the lever body?
please elaborate


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## D396 (Aug 13, 2014)

Steel Calf said:


> interesting but not sure what you mean,
> how can the cylinder rub against the lever body?
> please elaborate


Next time I pull it apart to replace it I will take pictures. But basically the cylinder is fitted into a hole in the lever body and is moved up and down by the lever. When I took the cylinder out it had rub marks all over it matching the color of the body. There was also plastic shavings inside from the cylinder that I had to clean out. It was very hard to remove the cylinder from the body and put it back in. However I did all this work in the warm, and I'm facing exactly what is described above, the brakes work fine in the cold. I'm also very confused how this would happen especially with that looks like permanent damage to the cylinder. Brakes are 10 months old and just started acting up when it got warm. Overnight in the cold they work fine though...


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

socalntv said:


> Interesting I found this thread -- I just had an issue yesterday. Brakes Guide R's pretty much completely failed in a dangerous defect kind of way. Modulation was way off, front lever stuck to bars, and the adjuster rotated to lock it in -- I went over the bars and smashed into the crunchy sagebrush -- which thank God it was there, it broke my fall and I only have scrapes, bruises and a little whiplash.
> 
> This is a design defect! If all Avid has to do is replace, they are getting out ahead -- some people may get more injured and sue. NEVER had an issue like this with Shimanos, been mountainbiking for 25 years.
> 
> ...


I've just received my RSC replacement and they redesigned the levers, now it's theoretically possible for the above to happen if you're unlucky. The original levers were better in this regard...


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## EABiker (Jun 24, 2004)

I ordered and installed the Sram lever internal parts kit; 100% cured the problem! I found that rubber from the piston seal was rubbing off inside the bore. I guess the rubber they used would swell from the brake fluid, and the tolerances were so close that the slight expansion from heat would cause too much friction and binding. Cheap DIY fix, ($17), but the snap ring is a pain in the butt to get out, (in one piece, anyway!).


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

pictures or it didn't happen


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## D396 (Aug 13, 2014)

Steel Calf said:


> pictures or it didn't happen


I will be doing the exact same thing when my replacement internals get here tomorrow and will post some pics.


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## EABiker (Jun 24, 2004)

D396 said:


> I will be doing the exact same thing when my replacement internals get here tomorrow and will post some pics.


Do you have long nosed snap ring pliers? I bought some and even had to grind the crap out of those in order to even reach the snap ring!


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## D396 (Aug 13, 2014)

EABiker said:


> Do you have long nosed snap ring pliers? I bought some and even had to grind the crap out of those in order to even reach the snap ring!


I did order some. I originally disassembled the brakes at a bike park to diagnose the issue, and it took the mechanic quite a while to get the ring off. I'm hoping it'll be easier now that it's been done once... We'll see though.


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## D396 (Aug 13, 2014)

As promised here are pics from the old master cylinder. The rub marks can clearly be seen. It seemed to have 100% fixed the problem when I replaced it, but time will tell. I also gave the internals of the lever a good cleaning. As mentioned above the snap ring was a b!tch to get off.


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## Loch (Apr 29, 2011)

Is it the rubber or the plastic that is making it stick? Looks like a lot of rubbing on the plastic.

Mine has the same issues described. I decided to go with the rebuild kit. Can never find the time to go the bike shop and anticipating the hassle of dealing with a SRAM dealer where I didn't purchase the bike (no confidence in my LBS either).

So I disassembled mine today. The snap ring was removed with moderate aggravation. However the piston (not sure of the proper name) was completely seized. Usually it would work just fine at room temp, but this time it was stuck. I think dirt/sand got in there (it is somewhat exposed). 

Anyway, I decided to remove the piston with a shot of compressed air. Well this worked really well. Too well. The piston shot across the room and, I think into another dimension, because I have not been able to find it. I did find the spring. I was hoping to be able to take a look at my piston to see why it was sticking, well maybe it will show up in a couple of years, when I've forgot about it.

Will report back when I get the new parts assembled.


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## D396 (Aug 13, 2014)

My piston was also seized, pushed it out with an Allen key from the other side. I think it's a combination of the plastic and seals. I did the other one today and the rub marks were much worse.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Thanks a lot for the pictures.

Kudos to these few brave who take matters into their own hands!


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## Loch (Apr 29, 2011)

D396 said:


> My piston was also seized, pushed it out with an Allen key from the other side. I think it's a combination of the plastic and seals. I did the other one today and the rub marks were much worse.
> View attachment 1079780


An Allen key??  How anticlimactic! :idea: I think I'll try packing the next one with gunpowder!:ihih:


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## Loch (Apr 29, 2011)

UPDATE: The Dog found the lost piston. She had it in her mouth. Not sure how the dog found it. We searched for hours for that thing.

Anyway, it looks just like the others with lots of rub marks etc.

I clean it off really good and tried inserting it back into the lever. It was still stuck tight (yes, this time I removed it with an allen key, no drama ).

So my question is, should this piston move freely with just the spring tension, or does it need fluid in there?

Still waiting for my parts to arrive.


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## D396 (Aug 13, 2014)

Loch said:


> UPDATE: The Dog found the lost piston. She had it in her mouth. Not sure how the dog found it. We searched for hours for that thing.
> 
> Anyway, it looks just like the others with lots of rub marks etc.
> 
> ...


The new piston I put in moves very freely with only spring tension. Soaking it in brake fluid as recommended loosened it up even more.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Are we talking about some isolated issues here or will a larger number of Guide brakes develop this sticky lever syndrome over time?

If the ruber seal inside "swells" from the brake fluid that sounds very much like another faulty design/inferior materials in the first place


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## homey (May 24, 2004)

Holy crap balls this is old news. I've worked on a bunch of old sram/avid brakes that have this problem and they used the same (similar) white piston. What happens is that the brake fluid combined with heat causes that white piston to expand which causes the brake lever to stop working. What we did at the shop was remove all the rubber rings, put the skinny end into a power drill, find some fine sandpaper and sand down the fatter part of the cylinder until it goes back into the housing without any friction.

The good news is that once you've done this a couple times it only takes about a half hour, including a bleed, to restore the brake to be fully functional and it lasts for a long time. 

I can't believe SRAM is still using that plastic piston after all these years...


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2016)

Steel Calf said:


> If the ruber seal inside "swells" from the brake fluid that sounds very much like another faulty design/inferior materials in the first place


nice troll and guess, but not.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

nvphatty said:


> nice troll and guess, but not.


you wanna read post #21 before calling me names here because that is what I was refering to. I encountered the problems described here but didn't disassemble the levers myself as both got exchanged under warranty.


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## ideapix (Jul 7, 2016)

If you want to get this white part, it is necessary to lower the lever into the cold water. It freed, if it sufficiently cooled .

If you want to fix the lever. It is enough to gently whittle away some fiber with small projections in this white part


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

ideapix said:


> If you want to get this white part, it is necessary to lower the lever into the cold water. It freed, if it sufficiently cooled .
> 
> If you want to fix the lever. It is enough to gently whittle away some fiber with small projections in this white part


excellent fix. glad to see folks not just give in to the 'ahh hell it's broke throw it away and buy new' mentality as there's much satisfaction in improvising when successful.

Glad to see the ignore list function work it's magic :thumbsup:


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## ideapix (Jul 7, 2016)

nvphatty said:


> excellent fix. glad to see folks not just give in to the 'ahh hell it's broke throw it away and buy new' mentality as there's much satisfaction in improvising when successful.
> 
> Glad to see the ignore list function work it's magic :thumbsup:


Thank you! This is possible by the fact that I'm from Russia 

Here I have problems with the warranty on such products, or can not buy the necessary spare parts.

But I bought two brake GuideRS and they both stopped working a year later.
Now they are working perfectly, even in the +32C.

This fix is working for me!


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Are these the correct instructions?https://www.canyon.com/download/manuals/Manual_Guide_Brakes.pdf

My levers are getting sticky, the back's the worst and I wonder if it's necessary to get the lever parts kit or if I can just clean, trim the piston and reinstall? Nearly new bike from Bikes Direct, so I'll be doing any work myself.....


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## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

nvphatty said:


> nice troll and guess, but not.


 In most of the brake upgrade threads there is someone that pipes in with "you haven't tried guides yet, SRAM fixed it, they are great". At least now there is a thread proving that the Guides are just as bad as the rest.

Hopefully adding something more constructive to the thread, I replaced my wife's DB5 (absolutely not an Avid!, lol) brakes tonight with SLX's. This was on her newest bike, a Trek Stache. Same crap as my Avids from 2011, stuck on when hot. My point is, the issues seem to impact those that level too to add another data point to the one already mentioned.

On another note, concerning the concern about it being widespread. I was shopping for a bike for one of my kids. I expressed by discontent with the Guide brakes on the bike. The salesman at the LBS gave me the "they are all the same, those are sweet brakes" speech, and a story about a leaking Shimano caliper. It was probably true, but whatever. In the mean time we are messing around in the parking lot with the bike on a test ride. Its 88 degrees (F) and to no surprise of mine the front brake lever starts to stick causing the brake to drag. In the end we bought the bike that didn't have SRAM brakes, and I'm so thankful I don't have to deal with another set.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2016)

adaycj said:


> In most of the brake upgrade threads there is someone that pipes in with "you haven't tried guides yet, SRAM fixed it, they are great". At least now there is a thread proving that the Guides are just as bad as the rest.
> 
> Hopefully adding something more constructive to the thread, I replaced my wife's DB5 (absolutely not an Avid!, lol) brakes tonight with SLX's. This was on her newest bike, a Trek Stache. Same crap as my Avids from 2011, stuck on when hot. My point is, the issues seem to impact those that level too to add another data point to the one already mentioned.


What's most important is what ever brand warranty's are in effect and being addressed via replacement updated versions, kudos to them. 10's of thousands per series are manufactured each year just as with ANY other mass produced product around the world! some of each will be bad/lemons and again what matters is how the manufacture steps up to rectify said product. Hydros, mechanical, v-brakes, rim brakes will all have some glitch just as PC's do.

I have a set of juicy 5's on my older bike and a combo of ZEE/deore on another new bike, both setups work flawlessly from the get go, lucky perhaps, but then again perhaps not.


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## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

nvphatty said:


> What's most important is what ever brand warranty's are in effect and being addressed via replacement updated versions, kudos to them. 10's of thousands per series are manufactured each year just as with ANY other mass produced product around the world! some of each will be bad/lemons and again what matters is how the manufacture steps up to rectify said product. Hydros, mechanical, v-brakes, rim brakes will all have some glitch just as PC's do.
> 
> I have a set of juicy 5's on my older bike and a combo of ZEE/deore on another new bike, both setups work flawlessly from the get go, lucky perhaps, but then again perhaps not.


You have a better attitude about it than I do. Maybe its the roughly $600 Ive spent so far in my life I've spent on brake "upgrades" I should have never needed. This is caused by the fact that bikes I want and can afford almost always have Avid/SRAM speced. Maybe its the sting of failure I felt when the LBS and I both tried to "bleed" our way out of this. Or maybe the botched rides. I just can't let it go. I am sick to death of the defective brakes from Avid/SRAM. For me its not one, or an isolated incidence, its every set. My friends also claimed it was just me, or bad luck. But one by one they all died. The BB7s are the only ones left. And I'm to blame too, I don't even try to fix them anymore. There are just too many hours wasted in my life. This sand the piston thing might be the hot ticket, but no way am I going there. I hope it works for every person that tries it.

I can only hope that someone somewhere gets something out of the posts I make in these threads. Maybe some good can come from it, and I don't just sound like a mad man. I literally walked on a new 29+ at a LBS this week because they wouldn't swap out the SRAM brakes for a reasonable price. My kid got a 27+ from another dealer two cities away that has knockoff brakes. I'll bet the knockoffs workout just fine, just like the last set and the set before that. And it isn't even that I don't like SRAM. My bikes are covered in their other parts. Anyway, I hear what you are saying about isolated failures and such. From my perspecive it is an isolated case that they work for more than a season before the nonsense starts.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2016)

adaycj said:


> You have a better attitude about it than I do. Maybe its the roughly $600 Ive spent so far in my life I've spent on brake "upgrades" I should have never needed. This is caused by the fact that bikes I want and can afford almost always have Avid/SRAM speced. Maybe its the sting of failure I felt when the LBS and I both tried to "bleed" our way out of this. Or maybe the botched rides. I just can't let it go. I am sick to death of the defective brakes from Avid/SRAM. For me its not one, or an isolated incidence, its every set. My friends also claimed it was just me, or bad luck. But one by one they all died. The BB7s are the only ones left. And I'm to blame too, I don't even try to fix them anymore. There are just too many hours wasted in my life. This sand the piston thing might be the hot ticket, but no way am I going there. I hope it works for every person that tries it.


I can appreciate and respect your position given product failure multiple times...which brings you to 'i'm done' I can also appreciate the sentiment of fixes, replacements for $$$ that should not be, new or near new products. Being a self advocate type the proverbial **** would hit the fan if it were me.

Wish you well in the future.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

FWIW, this thread brings me back to the first 'sweet' Avid brake I bought--an '08 Code.
Ironically enough, not only do they look very similar on the outside, I'm already familiar with the magical thermal properties of that white plastic.

At least the bite point doesn't leak on these. :thumbsup:


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## EABiker (Jun 24, 2004)

D396: 

Could you be so kind as to post the brand, (and model), if possible, of the snap ring pliers you used? I modded, then killed the ones I bought, not to mention breaking the snap ring itself. I want to try to mod my old piston to see whether that is a valid permanent fix or not.


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## D396 (Aug 13, 2014)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000...1468597315&sr=1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65

Unfortunately I had to mod these also, took a dremel grinder, so I would not recommend them.


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## EABiker (Jun 24, 2004)

Lol, those are the exact ones I had! 

Oh well!


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## Loch (Apr 29, 2011)

EABiker said:


> D396:
> 
> Could you be so kind as to post the brand, (and model), if possible, of the snap ring pliers you used? I modded, then killed the ones I bought, not to mention breaking the snap ring itself. I want to try to mod my old piston to see whether that is a valid permanent fix or not.


Would love to find some that worked good. I had better luck using two jewelers screwdrivers to remove the snap ring. I modded a very cheap harbor freight pair to get the new one in, which worked so so, but was clearly the hardest part of the job.

Anyway my brakes are working great now (just have to do the rear brakes now)!

I can also confirm, that the new parts kit is not needed. Removing the material from the old piston as indicated, frees it right up.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Just like my Pike fork that goes back over your few months for warranty it's put me off SRAM. Yes their warranty is great buy what's the point in owning a product that is away for weeks at a time on a regular basis? I'd rather be out riding.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2016)

GRPABT1 said:


> Just like my Pike fork that goes back over your few months for warranty it's put me off SRAM. Yes their warranty is great buy what's the point in owning a product that is away for weeks at a time on a regular basis? I'd rather be out riding.


I can sympathize with your sentiment.


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## nickcarll (Sep 4, 2007)

So I am having same issue on my ice cream truck. What's the time frame on warranty replacement? Roughly. And no one has had luck simply bleeding system?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mtnbkrdr98 (May 27, 2004)

Wow, this is not good to hear all this.
Just yesterday on brand new bike, new levers the Guide R rear lever LOCKED and so I had no rear brakes at all. The rear brake was not on.
the shop knew what it was right away and fixed it and said should not happen again - I guess some kind of adjustment knob or something inside the lever was misaligned?
But, I'm not sure if I trust these brakes now.

The poster above who said he was sent over the bars - that's unnerving. What if that happens to someone going super fast, over a rock garden? something like that.

I hate to "bug" my bike shop; and don't want tospend more money after buying brand new bike where everything SHOULD work and be reliable.
not sure what to do now.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

My bleed kit arrived today so I jumped into my sticky levers. The online instructions were great, I had a bit of trouble with the snap ring until I filed a bit of metal away on my pliers and it took shop air to pop the piston out. Just as our Russian friend posted earlier, the problem is in the piston. The two bands that he indicates were about .04mm larger in diameter than the rest of the piston, once I filed it a bit with a jewelers file it moved freely again. 

After a good cleaning, reassembly and two bleeding sessions an hour apart I now have great brakes again and I didn't need to buy any parts! I consider the bleed kit to be a tool, not a part......


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## L3_jok3r (Feb 11, 2016)

Get an update Guide R to Ultimate for 200$, I hope I won't regret...


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## jpaulo007 (Apr 14, 2015)

Same problem with my SRAM guide brakes. When the temperatures get up to ~30ºC, the levers start to get stuck. Yesterday almoust had a crash!!! This is critical part they should recall all the parts and solve the problem.

I will send them now to the warranty.


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## redrhino (Dec 2, 2015)

This is happening on my RSC levers... I would imagine the same issue is causing it as on the RS?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

redrhino said:


> This is happening on my RSC levers... I would imagine the same issue is causing it as on the RS?


 It looks like the same piston.........


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## redrhino (Dec 2, 2015)

Yeah, I confirmed it is the same issue. The bike is in my hot garage and the lever will barely return. I rubbed ice cubes on it for a minute and it went right back to being smooth and normal. Sram must be having a swell summer.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

ideapix said:


> If you want to get this white part, it is necessary to lower the lever into the cold water. It freed, if it sufficiently cooled .
> 
> If you want to fix the lever. It is enough to gently whittle away some fiber with small projections in this white part
> 
> View attachment 1080609


Our Russian friend is correct. Just ran into this issue last week while working on my bike out on the deck, had it in the stand in the hot sun and both levers seized up. I love that I can just walk inside to the computer, spend 2 minutes on Google and instantly know what the problem is. Being North American instead of Russian I ordered the new parts instead  Sure enough, the new pistons have a slightly smaller diameter on the flanges, and the flanges are slightly shorter in length too. I'm sure a few swipes with a bit of sandpaper would have done the trick but now I have extra parts for the entire levers.


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## 274898 (Nov 29, 2005)

I have the same problem with Guide RSC brakes. Both of the levers won't return. The weather has been warmer in my area plus being in my hot garage. Sounds reasonable that it is the piston in the lever with the problems. Talked with SRAM two times and one guy said it was a known problem and SRAM would most likely fix it and the other guy was pretty evasive about the problem. 

My Avid Elixirs X0s are on another bike of mine in the same hot garage and absolutely no problems with the levers. They are snappy and smooth. It is just a problem with the Guide brakes.


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## EABiker (Jun 24, 2004)

annnddd.... the lever rebuild kits are out of stock; everywhere! grrrrrr....


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## ban (Jul 24, 2004)

I have a pair of Guide Ultimates and just the front brake is giving me this problem (it's going to be warrantied) ...the funny thing is that I bought each brake separately in different shops....so maybe the rear one is a newer version in which it has already been solved this problem?


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## 274898 (Nov 29, 2005)

D396 said:


> My piston was also seized, pushed it out with an Allen key from the other side. I think it's a combination of the plastic and seals. I did the other one today and the rub marks were much worse.
> View attachment 1079780











This is the Guide RSC Lever Internals Rebuild Kit. The Lever piston looks totally different than the one you show in your picture. The piston in the parts rebuild kit picture, shows the piston is much shorter and does not have the extension.

What is weird, SRAM told me that they don't have a new piston for it, yet. They are in the process of redesigning the piston. However, this clearly shows a different piston unless my picture is the wrong parts for the Guide RSC Lever which I don't think it is.


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## redrhino (Dec 2, 2015)

The guide RS and Guide RSC seem to have slightly different internals. I have the RSC and took mine apart today. It matches the picture you show. The same issue exists even though they are a bit different. I sanded down the three ridges shown in this image. So far it seems to be moving nice and smoothly, but I need to get a few rides in with it on a hot day.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2016)

Please correct if i'm mistaken but to date it seems as though the tolerances of internals and bore are a fraction too tight when heat is added?? hence the reason for material being sanded/removed by owners yes??


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## redrhino (Dec 2, 2015)

nvphatty said:


> Please correct if i'm mistaken but to date it seems as though the tolerances of internals and bore are a fraction too tight when heat is added?? hence the reason for material being sanded/removed by owners yes??


Yes, some people are sanding/filing them and some are buying the lever parts kit and replacing the problem piece. I don't think it is clear whether or not the parts kit actually has a revised part, intended to solve this problem, or if it is just a roll of the dice. Sanding/filing is a bit of a crap shoot too, it would seem that if you take too much material off it could cause other issues.

I'm also not sure why only some levers have this issue. Only one of my two levers does. Maybe it is just manufacturing differences that are enough to cause it? Or maybe the issue will pop up with the other lever eventually.


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## EABiker (Jun 24, 2004)

I had the issue on my front, and fixed that with the rebuild kit, (for now). The rear was fine, but now has the same issue.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2016)

EABiker said:


> I had the issue on my front, and fixed that with the rebuild kit, (for now). The rear was fine, but now has the same issue.


By chance did you eye the parts and see any diff? Or better yet take any measurements to compare??


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## L3_jok3r (Feb 11, 2016)

http://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/how-convert-sram-brakes-ice-tech-1019378.html


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

L3_jok3r said:


> http://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/how-convert-sram-brakes-ice-tech-1019378.html


:lol:


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

redrhino said:


> I don't think it is clear whether or not the parts kit actually has a revised part, intended to solve this problem, or if it is just a roll of the dice.


The pistons from the parts kit for my RSCs were most definitely different than the ones that came out of there. Whether or not they are different specifically to fix this issue or for some other reason is unknown, but they * have * changed. So far so good.


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## abroadaw (Dec 1, 2005)

A follow-up to my earlier post: YT sent me a new RSC on one side and a RS off of a demo bike. Due to unforeseen circumstances, I didn't have a chance to do much riding after getting them installed. Went out for a couple rides in Austin this weekend; temps 95-105F. Both new brakes were doing the same dang thing! Spray down with ice water, levers would return. Out in the sun, they'd stick something awful. I've let YT know and asked that they get in touch with SRAM. Since it's over 90 for a third of the year in Texas, my bike is basically unrideable until October when it finally cools down. Unacceptable. I do love the brakes when they are working. But my wife's XT's are working just fine in this heat...


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## redrhino (Dec 2, 2015)

FWIW I also have a pair of fairly new Guide Ultimates on my second bike. I rode it in 85+ degree conditions over the weekend and the levers got noticeably stickier. They did return ok, but knowing what was going on with my RSCs made me more aware, and I could feel it starting to happen in these as well. It seems that this is an issue across the board. Sigh.


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## dusadus (May 21, 2014)

Just an update that my brakes have been working perfectly since the replacement. I keep my Bike in the garage where it's been over 110* the last month here in SoCal. Hopefully it'll continue to hold up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

abroadaw said:


> A follow-up to my earlier post: YT sent me a new RSC on one side and a RS off of a demo bike. Due to unforeseen circumstances, I didn't have a chance to do much riding after getting them installed. Went out for a couple rides in Austin this weekend; temps 95-105F. Both new brakes were doing the same dang thing! Spray down with ice water, levers would return. Out in the sun, they'd stick something awful. I've let YT know and asked that they get in touch with SRAM. Since it's over 90 for a third of the year in Texas, my bike is basically unrideable until October when it finally cools down. Unacceptable. I do love the brakes when they are working. But my wife's XT's are working just fine in this heat...


Ahhhhhhh. Just got my replacements from YT that Sram sent. YT has been great about dealing with it, just wish Sram could make products that work.


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## EABiker (Jun 24, 2004)

I received my latest replacement kit, and there has been a redesign on the piston:










The one with the spring is the new one, Note the extra groove on the opposite end; this may be where the binding occurs. ( I removed one of the seals on the old one). Also, when I measured the diameter of the two, the new one was .07mm smaller. The date code on the bag was 6-16, so these are brand new. Hopefully, this is all good now! Other info for DIY'ers: The snap ring is 14mm; I killed every one I removed, and even though you get a new one in the kit , you may loose it. Also, when installing things, the washer and the piston can be pushed into the bore with a deep well socket, (I used a 12mm), and the washer will slip into the snap ring groove to hold them in place. I also used the same socket to push the snap ring down the bore; you need to tap the socket with something to get it to move, but you can drive it down until it snaps into it's slot. Good luck!


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

abroadaw said:


> Since it's over 90 for a third of the year in Texas, my bike is basically unrideable until October when it finally cools down. Unacceptable. I do love the brakes when they are working. But my wife's XT's are working just fine in this heat...


Swap brakes with your wife's bike till a more permanent fix arrives.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I wonder, is this issue only with the 2015 Guide Ultimate and the 2016 all models, which have the S4 caliper? Is this new variant called 'B1'?

I know it's not the caliper, but let me explain my question - more of a theory, actually.

I bought a set of Guide RSCs from Universal Cycles a few months ago. I am pretty sure they are the original ones, not B1. (Whatever B1 indicates - honestly not sure.) I have ridden them in serious heat. Right now it's relatively mild in Kansas, upper 80s, but I did several rides in full sun at 95+ and no issues at all. Zero.

...So, what do you all think?


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## johnny5jz (Sep 15, 2015)

I just tried sanding the plastic plunger on my Guide R front brake. I used 320 grit wet sandpaper and sanded until the scratches were gone. It feels better than it ever has. I am going on a vacation tomorrow where there are some great trails. I was pretty bummed since I couldn't get parts on time. I will post back on how it works. It was really bad timing since my bluto has a bad bushing on my On One Fatty trail and it is out for warranty. I was almost bikeless at the worst time.


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## Joel Fitzgerald (Feb 4, 2014)

EABiker said:


> I received my latest replacement kit, and there has been a redesign on the piston:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where did you obtain the kit from? I want to make sure I get the latest..
Cheers
Joel


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## EABiker (Jun 24, 2004)

I ordered it from Tree Fort Bikes, on Amazon.


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

I first had this problem with a pair of Juicy Ultimates I bought with a Superfly back in 2008. They were good brakes, but one hot day was about to pre ride a race course and one seized. Drove an hour to the nearest bike store, bought the only brakes they had at full retail. (XT 785). I guess I'm a glutton, but I like the SRAM feel, and the DB5's were cheap from Merlin for a while. I have two pairs of DB5s, and four pairs of Guides. (Wife and kids bikes + one of mine...). One of the DB5's was becoming slow to return. This last weekend at a race it was getting bad enough that I grabbed a Guide that I had in my tool box to replace it, and it started doing the same thing. Finally took a brake off another bike to get it rolling for the race. When I got home this Monday both brakes, that worked all weekend, were not returning. Bike had been on the roof rack in TX sun... Since I have so many of these buggers, I'm glad to have found this thread and am hoping to have some luck sanding.


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

I took one of my DB5 levers apart. It has the older cylinder with the solid top. Sanded it down from about .36" dia. to ~.35" dia. Reassembled, not sticking anymore. Made a snap ring plier out of long nosed pliers. Ground the tips down. Need to leave it in the TX sun tomorrow to see if sticking comes back, but the brake was pretty much seized prior to this. Fingers crossed then I'll tackle the other DB5 and Guide RS's I have.


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## Shmitty (Mar 24, 2015)

My 2015 guides have been slow to return for a while. Put an ice pack on them and they work great again, for a while. However, I had my bike on the rack in the AZ sun for the a couple of hours and the brakes completely seized until the tire wouldn't rotate. They are in the shop now, hopefully getting warrantied. Really disappointed because I like the brakes.... When they work. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

Put the bike out in the TX sun today. Brake that I sanded the cylinder down stayed fine, no perceptible difference. The other one locked up, but returned to functional after sitting in the shade for a while. I'm convinced the sanding works, so off to do a few more.

My snap ring pliers do not reach far enough to be useful on the brakes, so I took a pair of 1.99 harbor freight long nose pliers and ground the ends down to points. Works great.


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## taz_mtb (Sep 19, 2016)

Glad to see this issue out in the open...

Trek EX8 2008 came with Avid Juicy 5... I got this bike 2013 and since then have overhauled major components myself. These brakes worked one season (OCT to FEB) the for the second season I had to rebuild therm (Avid lever rebuild kit) but when I got it out last weekend for third season (~95F morning) the front lever (piston) went stuck. I called SRAM and they told me "like anything old you should invest in new brakes", that is such a load of ****, a proper overhaul replaces all parts that are "consumables". 

It is nothing but bad design. I was close to replacing them with SLX M675s when I read this (with brakes already dismantled on the bench) for sure the white piston core was rubbing against the lever bore even without the o-ring and plunger. I sanded it down and it goes in and out easily. I think the right thing is to put the core in very hot water and see how much it expands and then whittle it accordingly to free moving size. Then put new o-ring/plunger and use some "red rubber grease" on these rubber parts to lubricate and protect them somewhat from the expansion effect of the 5.1 fluid.

Shimanos are still on the cards but I'll give this a try first...


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## Joel Fitzgerald (Feb 4, 2014)

So just confirming, are you sanding down the cylinder or the piston?


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## taz_mtb (Sep 19, 2016)

I sanded the "ridges" on the white piston core as mentioned by our Russian friend and others several posts ago. The white part should never touch the cylinder cavity ever, its the job of the o-ring and the plunger to maintain a good seal.


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## 274898 (Nov 29, 2005)

nilswalk said:


> The pistons from the parts kit for my RSCs were most definitely different than the ones that came out of there. Whether or not they are different specifically to fix this issue or for some other reason is unknown, but they * have * changed. So far so good.


SRAM told me that during manufacturing there was a problem and it affected only some of the Guide brakes. Not sure if this is true, but that is what I was told. Regardless, those with the lemons do have bad brakes that need to be warrantied.


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## 274898 (Nov 29, 2005)

EABiker said:


> I received my latest replacement kit, and there has been a redesign on the piston:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Totally different piston. Well looks like SRAM knew of the problem and are addressing it. I just got my levers warrantied and it took 6 weeks. Ugh. Took me 15 minutes to install and re-bleed and they work good right now. Hopefully they have the new piston in them and have no problems, but won't know again until it gets hot outside.


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm sanding the whole outside diameter of the white piston. Using 600 grit now. I have completed 4 of the 8 brakes I own with the issue. 2 sets are DB5, the other 2 sets are guideRS. The pistons are all alike, and the old style. I'm pretty fast at doing the job now, and since it has been high 90's here I have been able to leave them in the sun and test that the fix works. They feel better after the fix too, but that could just be the fresh bleed. I bought the DB5's from Merlin, one set of guides from CL (guy said they were fine, I didn't know about this issue, they were messed up first time I installed) and other guides from Jenson. I'd rather fix them myself and know them inside and out. Plus I'd rather brush my teeth with Comet than go mess with a LBS regarding warranty, much less anything else.


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## taz_mtb (Sep 19, 2016)

It is bad design and reading here I can confidently say it is a not just one product line. 

The white piston cores are just too tight to begin with (they do not slide easily in the cylinder even without any seals) and they do get swollen by temperature. I measured the one in 07 Avid Juicy 5s at 9.42mm, I sanded it down to 9.32mm (yup 0.1mm shaved) and piston cores would fall right into the cylinder hole freely. The thing is that the white core has no business being this tight, it should move freely at any ambient temperature and the supple seals (o-ring and plunger) should keep the system liquid tight. I would advise however to use the SRAM Brake Seal Grease (or Castrol Red Rubber Grease) to protect the seals from long term negative effects of DOT fluid and also help them slide easily in the chamber.

I just finished working on my fronts and have a backup set of seals waiting for the rears to fail (which they will soon...!!!)

As for the SRAM customer support, well no amount of convincing from me made them even acknowledge that there was an issue in their design. Had these brakes been failing in disengaged state they would have recalled every single one of them... VERY VERY disappointed by their attitude...


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## Joel Fitzgerald (Feb 4, 2014)

How do you get the piston out of the lever!? I've pulled as much out as I can but see no way to get piston out. Thanks

Sent from my XT1092 using Tapatalk


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

This is just unbelievable!

Year after year Avid put out unreliable brakes that countless people had issues with. So SRAM take over and all the fan-boys are saying the dark days are over, the new brakes are a different animal. 

Now it turns out that the exact same issues, some of them anyway, are still present? Still not fixed!!! 

It boggles the mind it really does. Firstly, why the heck they cannot sort out these fundamental issues with the darn brakes and secondly, why any rational person would still buy them! What does it take?


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## Mike232 (Mar 14, 2015)

Joel Fitzgerald said:


> How do you get the piston out of the lever!? I've pulled as much out as I can but see no way to get piston out. Thanks
> 
> Sent from my XT1092 using Tapatalk


I followed this manual:

https://sram-cdn-pull-zone-gsdesign...v_b_guide_ultimate_service_manual_english.pdf

I use Avid DOT grease on piston.

Use of the "SRAM Guide Lever Internals Assembly Tool" makes things easier. It only cost about 6 bucks.

SRAM Tool Internals Guide Lever https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00TQ43B3Y/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_HXQ5xb9SC2M68


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> and secondly, why any rational person would still buy them! What does it take?


Google "Stockholm syndrome"

I'm affected too. I love my Guides even though I had them already replaced once. When they showed the sticky lever snydrome it was like a family member got sick. On the day I drove them to the LBS I shed some tears.

Knowing that the new pair can fail any moment just makes the little time we've got together more precious for me.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Joel Fitzgerald said:


> How do you get the piston out of the lever!? I've pulled as much out as I can but see no way to get piston out. Thanks
> 
> Sent from my XT1092 using Tapatalk


If the design is as similar as it looks, I used a small allen wrench to push it gently out from the hose side. On the older 'Avid' MC's I've worked on it's a straight shot from the hose through the other end.



Mr Pig said:


> This is just unbelievable!
> 
> Year after year Avid put out unreliable brakes that countless people had issues with. So SRAM take over and all the fan-boys are saying the dark days are over, the new brakes are a different animal.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure they can sort out those fundamental issues, the question is why year after year they choose not to. Maybe we're underestimating how many completes live out their lives as ornamentation in garages.


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## taz_mtb (Sep 19, 2016)

"Stockholm Syndrome" exactly... lol


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## taz_mtb (Sep 19, 2016)

Joel Fitzgerald said:


> How do you get the piston out of the lever!? I've pulled as much out as I can but see no way to get piston out. Thanks
> 
> Sent from my XT1092 using Tapatalk


Any thin, blunt and sturdy poking object (Allen Key as mentioned before) can be inserted from the brake line end of the lever assembly and push the piston out... That is what I had to use otherwise it was impossible... Just be careful when you do that since you will be axially going through the spring before you touch the piston's inner end...


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Zowie said:


> I'm pretty sure they can sort out those fundamental issues, the question is why year after year they choose not to.


That's what I don't understand.

I had a think about it have a theory. Let's say the rubber washer in question has to be a very specific material and specification. What if the Chinese manufacturing plant sometimes sources washers that are the wrong type, either because they are cheaper and they think it'll be ok or because the washer supplier lies about the composition of the washer to meet the price and get the deal?

That would explain why it has not been fixed. SRAM know the design is sound if the correct washers are used so there is no need to change the design. They just need to make sure the manufacturing plant get it right. They think they have it all sorted but the quality control Chinese side is not tight enough and they keep stuffing up.

Whether it is something like that or just a bad design, doesn't really matter. Either way it's not acceptable, especially from an outfit as big as SRAM.


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## taz_mtb (Sep 19, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> That's what I don't understand.
> ...
> Whether it is something like that or just a bad design, doesn't really matter. Either way it's not acceptable, especially from an outfit as big as SRAM.


If the brakes were getting stuck "disengaged" they would have recalled all the units (massive safety issue) and fixed... PERIOD... The tolerances are all off... it is not the rubber o-rings/plunger that has the issue it is the freakin white piston itself that seizes in the chamber when hot! that is a case of bad tolerance, if I can whittle it by 0.1mm and make it work in all conditions then so should they, just make a new mold, that's it...


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## Joel Fitzgerald (Feb 4, 2014)

Yeah why haven't the brakes been recalled? Yesterday after a long ride in the sun on hot day my front brake got locked on. Seems dangerous enough to deem a recall?

Sent from my XT1092 using Tapatalk


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Pardon me, but is this the "Official SRAM Guide Sticky Lever Mega-Thread"?


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## Joel Fitzgerald (Feb 4, 2014)

Welcome!

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## Joel Fitzgerald (Feb 4, 2014)

I pulled my guide RSC lever apart last night, it has the newer style piston already it serms (one with the smaller sections of white). No rub marks that I could see on the white bits. 
Just put some brake safe grease on it and reassembled. Doubt this will last for long?

Sent from my XT1092 using Tapatalk


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

taz_mtb said:


> The tolerances are all off... it is not the rubber o-rings/plunger that has the issue it is the freakin white piston itself that seizes in the chamber when hot! that is a case of bad tolerance, if I can whittle it by 0.1mm and make it work in all conditions then so should they, just make a new mold, that's it...


It could still be sloppy QC in China. Years ago I had a Nissan/Infinity car that started to rust in the top-rear corner of the front window frame. The corner of the glass was not as rounded as it clearly should have been and had gone through the rubber. I reckon it was the job of some kid in the glass factory to round those corners, but he was a bit lazy!

Maybe the piston is supposed to get a finishing off after it comes out of the mould and either that step is being missed or just not done properly.


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## Joel Fitzgerald (Feb 4, 2014)

So I tried removing the piston from the sticky lever, cleaned it up, bit of dot/rubber safe grease on the seals and reassembled. Felt find for a bit, then left bike in sun for 30mins. Lever would not return at all after that.
So pulled apart again, this time with some verniers I measured each of the raised sections along the piston, 2x of them were a bit larger than the 3rd. So I sanded those down with some real fine wet n dry paper. Got them all the same size. Reassembled, left bike in sun. So far so good!


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Maybe SRAM could include sand paper and instructions in the box?


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Careful: Only use original Sram sandpaper to sand down your sticky Guide pistons!


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

I think Srams engineers have a too slack working attitude. They're lacking discipline and respect for their customers.

To straighten things out they should apprehend the engineer responsible for this mess at Sram headquarter and make him suffer like us by immersing into a barrel full of boiling DOT 5.1

It'll set a deterring example for future employes in case they [email protected]#$ up again.









alternative option if there isn't enough DOT available to carry out above pubishment:


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

I put a bleed block in the caliper, then put a syringe on the caliper and push the piston out. Edit: Sorry, forgot to quote the post I was responding too. See next one...


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

Joel Fitzgerald said:


> How do you get the piston out of the lever!? I've pulled as much out as I can but see no way to get piston out. Thanks
> 
> Sent from my XT1092 using Tapatalk


I put a bleed block in the caliper, then put a syringe on the caliper and push the piston out.


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

Mike232 said:


> I followed this manual:
> 
> https://sram-cdn-pull-zone-gsdesign...v_b_guide_ultimate_service_manual_english.pdf
> 
> ...


That's cool for the Ultimates, no snap ring it looks like. On the DB5 and Guide R and RS with a stuck piston it won't move after the snap ring is removed. If you stick an allen wrench in the other side of the lever then you have to remove the hose, which means one then has to put a new hose end and olive on, plus shorten the hose by a 1/4" or so. If you put a bleed block in the caliper and then push it out with a syringe at the caliper then one doesn't need to mess with the hose.

The lever parts are simpler on the DB5, R, and RS, but it is still a bit of a pain getting the little spring back in correctly. Does the Guide assembly tool help with these as well?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Asmodeus2112 said:


> I put a bleed block in the calliper, then put a syringe on the calliper and push the piston out.


I put the brakes on eBay, then buy Shimano ones.


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> I put the brakes on eBay, then buy Shimano ones.


Haha, yep that's an option. I bought a pair of Guide R's for cheap from CL, wish the guy would have told me they had this problem, but now with 20 minutes of work and sandpaper they are working great! (For now at least...)


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## Mike232 (Mar 14, 2015)

Asmodeus2112 said:


> That's cool for the Ultimates, no snap ring it looks like. On the DB5 and Guide R and RS with a stuck piston it won't move after the snap ring is removed. If you stick an allen wrench in the other side of the lever then you have to remove the hose, which means one then has to put a new hose end and olive on, plus shorten the hose by a 1/4" or so. If you put a bleed block in the caliper and then push it out with a syringe at the caliper then one doesn't need to mess with the hose.
> 
> The lever parts are simpler on the DB5, R, and RS, but it is still a bit of a pain getting the little spring back in correctly. Does the Guide assembly tool help with these as well?


I didn't have any problem removing hose and re-inserting. No cutting required. Also used the Allen key technique described by others. Did this on a set of Guide RSCs. I had a sticky piston on one lever. Went ahead and did a rebuild on both. Haven't had any problem since. Live in Florida, pretty darn warm. I really think the use of grease was the key. Good luck with yours.


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## Joel Fitzgerald (Feb 4, 2014)

Yeah I did find the RSC has no clips to remove the piston.. I ended up using the air compressor and blowing some air into where the hose goes in which popped the piston out.


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## Rival (Feb 23, 2012)

Just took apart my lever. The end of the white plunger (snap ring side), has micro-gouges in it, likely the part that was seizing up.... this is ridiculous. The snap ring was a pain in the arse.


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## Joel Fitzgerald (Feb 4, 2014)

Glad at least the RSC doesn't have a snap ring to remove..


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## Rival (Feb 23, 2012)

So what does the piston feel like for those of you that have sanded it down a bit? Does it slide into the housing easily? Does the lever easily snap back?

i'm not sure if i sanded mine down enough.....


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## Joel Fitzgerald (Feb 4, 2014)

Yeah my lever snaps back pretty quickly now. May be not quite as fast as the other lever that SRAM replaced under warranty. 
Would be good to get some digital verniers and measure up a new piston, then compare that with an old one?


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## Scottie5150 (Mar 10, 2004)

Rival said:


> So what does the piston feel like for those of you that have sanded it down a bit? Does it slide into the housing easily? Does the lever easily snap back?
> 
> i'm not sure if i sanded mine down enough.....


Snappy!

Sent from the UnderWorld via Nexus 6P ?


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## DNav1 (Jan 9, 2010)

*Made these to keep em working in the heat until I "fix" them.*

Cut up shammy camp towel with velcro. Pour/ spit cold water on and they act as swamp coolers.


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## DNav1 (Jan 9, 2010)

SRAMP Coolers !!!


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

Started making new aluminium pistons. As best as I can tell, the bore is 9.45mm diameter.


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

Finally got around to turning up a piston.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

link1896 said:


> Finally got around to turning up a piston. [/IMG]


Bang goes your weight-weeny status right there ;0)


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

Mr Pig said:


> Bang goes your weight-weeny status right there ;0)


Yep by three grams, and now they might work as intended


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## Trek Ninja (Dec 4, 2015)

I have a set of brand new Level ULT's with the same exact problem. Strange I have never had any issues with XT or XTR's. I can see these things happening on older brakes but brand new out of the box?

Update, I contacted Sram and the are sending a new set out priority. I have to say, they do have great customer service. And when working, their brakes are as good as any.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

DNav1 said:


> Cut up shammy camp towel with velcro. Pour/ spit cold water on and they act as swamp coolers.





link1896 said:


> Started making new aluminium pistons. As best as I can tell, the bore is 9.45mm diameter.


holy **** what's going on here!

Now that it seems that the new Level brakes are also affected maybe Sram should pull the plug and shut down brake division?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

link1896 said:


> Finally got around to turning up a piston.


I like your attitude .

You can still shave around around 0.5g from them 
I think you should anodize the piston, this way they will not corrode, and the friction will go down as well, and I would anodize it in gold, just for the bling factor .


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## 410sprint (Oct 19, 2012)

Aglo said:


> I like your attitude .
> 
> You can still shave around around 0.5g from them
> I think you should anodize the piston, this way they will not corrode, and the friction will go down as well, and I would anodize it in gold, just for the bling factor .


No- it needs Kashima

All kidding aside, its a bad lever design. I gave up on a set of Guide R's on my wife bike. We changed to SLX and never looked back.


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

I might anodise my pistons but the lever body itself isn't anodised and it doesn't seem to oxidise the dot fluid. I'll have the master cylinder bore properly lubed, don't think the factory assembly involved lube.

I've also work out a seal arrangement to go around the push rod to keep junk out of the piston seals. A little ring with tube expoxied to both sides for the pushrod to slip thru.


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

Rod seal idea works


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

Mike232 said:


> I didn't have any problem removing hose and re-inserting. No cutting required. Also used the Allen key technique described by others. Did this on a set of Guide RSCs. I had a sticky piston on one lever. Went ahead and did a rebuild on both. Haven't had any problem since. Live in Florida, pretty darn warm. I really think the use of grease was the key. Good luck with yours.


I guess I've always assumed one should put a new olive on, but that appears to be a bad assumption. Still need to do a bleed afterwards, so the syringe is going to go on the caliper anyway, and then you do not need to disconnect the hose etc.


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

Rival said:


> So what does the piston feel like for those of you that have sanded it down a bit? Does it slide into the housing easily? Does the lever easily snap back?
> 
> i'm not sure if i sanded mine down enough.....


Mine snap back nicely, feel great. I'm not sure there is a penalty for sanding slightly too far.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

link1896 said:


>


Isn't that rather uncomfortable?


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## DH40 (Jan 14, 2004)

Does anyone know if this affects the B spec RSCs?


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## Crooked Cop (May 28, 2014)

DH40 said:


> Does anyone know if this affects the B spec RSCs?


I'm wondering about this too. About to pull the plug on a new set of RSC's


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Crooked Cop said:


> About to pull the plug on a new set of RSC's


Why?


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## Crooked Cop (May 28, 2014)

Mr Pig said:


> Why?


So I stop wearing out the soles of my shoes.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Crooked Cop said:


> So I stop wearing out the soles of my shoes.


It's just that I find it mystifying that people still buy SRAM brakes when Shimano ones exist.


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## Crooked Cop (May 28, 2014)

Mr Pig said:


> It's just that I find it mystifying that people still buy SRAM brakes when Shimano ones exist.


From all the reviews I've read and shop mechanics I've talked to, SRAM Guide Ultimate and RSC with the S4 calipers have better modulation than Shimano. And I'm all about the modulation. Also with the matchmaker clamp, I can put my SRAM shifter in the optimal position for my setup.


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## charlatan (Aug 14, 2010)

Alright, so this is now causing me to consider my build again.

I won't be riding until Feb/March, when my bike is built, but I am putting together a parts list for it. If I were to consider these brakes, is there a newer date / part number I should look for? I won't be able to open them up and check the piston before I get them. And if I were to pull them apart without ever installing them, would I be able to return them?

I wonder if the Magura MT 5 (made in Germany?) have a plastic piston? Any sets built with a different design?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Crooked Cop said:


> From all the reviews I've read and shop mechanics I've talked to, SRAM Guide Ultimate and RSC with the S4 calipers have better modulation than Shimano.


Not when they're stuck fast they don't.

Have you tried Shimano ZEE brakes? I haven't but they are supposed to offer nice modulation with the even nicer Shimano reliability. I'm fine with XT/Deore brakes. Once you're used to the way they work it's not a problem.


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## Crooked Cop (May 28, 2014)

Mr Pig said:


> Not when they're stuck fast they don't.
> 
> Have you tried Shimano ZEE brakes? I haven't but they are supposed to offer nice modulation with the even nicer Shimano reliability. I'm fine with XT/Deore brakes. Once you're used to the way they work it's not a problem.


Well that's why I'm making sure I get the newly designed pistons that don't stick.
Havent tried the ZEE brakes but they look pretty good also. This article and the comments don't bode well for Shimano's reputation. Not All of Shimano?s 2016 Deore XT M8000 Brakes Provide the Reliability the Brand Is Known For ? A Long Term Review | Singletracks Mountain Bike News


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

Crooked Cop said:


> Well that's why I'm making sure I get the newly designed pistons that don't stick.
> Havent tried the ZEE brakes but they look pretty good also. This article and the comments don't bode well for Shimano's reputation. Not All of Shimano?s 2016 Deore XT M8000 Brakes Provide the Reliability the Brand Is Known For ? A Long Term Review | Singletracks Mountain Bike News


You want Hope brakes. Amazing reliability due to great solid engineering. Matchmaker mounts too.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Crooked Cop said:


> Well that's why I'm making sure I get the newly designed pistons that don't stick.


The difference between Avid/Sram and Shimano is that issues with Shimano brakes are rare. With Avid/Sram problems are typical. Over the years I've seen personally and heard of so many problems with Avid/Sram brakes that there is no way I'd buy them. Anyone can have the odd issue but with Avid/Sram it's the same, or similar issues over and over again, year after year. There is clearly something not right at the highest level when they cannot sort it out. Either redesign the brake, bin the design and start again or sort out the manufacturing if that's where the problem lies.

Every time a new range of Sram brakes comes out it's the same story. 'All fixed now, these brakes are good', then the forum posts about sticking pistons start popping up. Frankly, I don't think they deserve the business and I'm not giving them my money. I couldn't care less if the brakes are ok now or not. I've had ruined rides because friends brakes have jammed on, another guy who sold year-old Juices to escape the grief. No thanks. There are plenty of people making good brakes, Sram can shove it.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Shimano's current brakes are poor. M98x and M785 were good but not without problems, leaking hose crimps, leaking piston seals, failing levers. The new ones are very poor by shimano standards. Even saints have issues, cracking pistons in the calipers, inconsistent lever feel, failing levers. No brake is 100%.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Rick Draper said:


> Shimano's current brakes are poor. M98x and M785 were good but not without problems, leaking hose crimps, leaking piston seals, failing levers. The new ones are very poor by shimano standards. Even saints have issues, cracking pistons in the calipers, inconsistent lever feel, failing levers. No brake is 100%.


I agree that no one makes perfect products at all times but I think saying Shimano brakes are poor is stretching it. The problems you describe on M785 for instance are news to me. If they happen they must be rare as just about everyone I've heard of with those brakes sings their praises. Mine are faultless.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

So, anybody have a part number and US source for the update plastic piece?


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

Went ahead and ordered these: Sram/Avid Lever Internals Parts Kit for GUIDE R/RE/DB5 Qty 1 | eBay

It's the only seller anywhere I've been able to find with confirmed pictures of the new beveled cylinder.

I've got RS brakes, but it appears the white piece is the same across R and RS models.

Now just have to wait for the slow boat.


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## kolja (May 5, 2016)

I'm having the same problem of the levers sticking/slowing down when in the sun. Does anyone know if JENSON USA has the updated modle? as I just ordered two internal part sets. And what are the results long term after the upgrade?

Thanks


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Just to but in, I don't have Guides and don't have nothing against them, but isn't the stiky piston thing covered by warranty?
Why is everyone trying to buy a pair of pistons instead of send them to SRAM?


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

Because I ride a lot, and would rather pay the $20 to fix, than have to wait weeks for a warranty replacement.


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## rijndael (Sep 19, 2016)

Weeks? I got my warranty replacements in less than 5 business days.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

That's best cast, and for me, 1 week ride time is worth >> than $20


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Ok, that's fair.
Personally, I would just use a backup set, but I'm sure not everyone would be willing to bother with swapping brakes that many times in that short amount of time, or have a backup set.


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

Aglo said:


> Just to but in, I don't have Guides and don't have nothing against them, but isn't the stiky piston thing covered by warranty?
> Why is everyone trying to buy a pair of pistons instead of send them to SRAM?


Because I bought them ultra cheap when Merlin was selling them, plus a couple sets from CL, and another from EBay. Not going to mess with trying to warranty. I can do the sanding method in about 15 minutes now, and so far that fix is working well.


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## useport80 (Mar 6, 2008)

i just bought a new 2017 bike that will come with guide rs brakes. is there any way for me to determine if i have an old or newly designed brake lever?


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

useport80 said:


> i just bought a new 2017 bike that will come with guide rs brakes. is there any way for me to determine if i have an old or newly designed brake lever?


Post up a picture of the calipers


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

useport80 said:


> I just bought a new 2017 bike that will come with guide rs brakes. is there any way for me to determine if i have an old or newly designed brake lever?


If they stick after a few months, it's the old ones. If it takes a year, the new!


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

useport80 said:


> i just bought a new 2017 bike that will come with guide rs brakes. is there any way for me to determine if i have an old or newly designed brake lever?


Perhaps they have changed the part number on the levers? Maybe you could post the part number on you brakes and we can compare. Other than that I think you would have to put them in the sun or pull the lever piston out and look at it to see if it is the old or the new.


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## useport80 (Mar 6, 2008)

link1896 said:


> Post up a picture of the calipers





Asmodeus2112 said:


> Perhaps they have changed the part number on the levers? Maybe you could post the part number on you brakes and we can compare. Other than that I think you would have to put them in the sun or pull the lever piston out and look at it to see if it is the old or the new.


i dont have the new bike yet. but i'll take a few pictures when it get delivered. can i capture the part numbers without taking the brake lever apart?

i would hate to crash or go OTB due to faulty brakes that i can't avoid, especially on a new bike


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

useport80 said:


> i dont have the new bike yet. but i'll take a few pictures when it get delivered. can i capture the part numbers without taking the brake lever apart?
> 
> i would hate to crash or go OTB due to faulty brakes that i can't avoid, especially on a new bike


This "failure" isn't one that will put you OTB or cause you to crash unless it just makes you panic and lose your mind. Don't sweat it too much. If something happens, get the bike back to the shop and they should warranty the levers for you. SRAM is really good about that. Just enjoy your new bike.


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

Cotharyus said:


> This "failure" isn't one that will put you OTB or cause you to crash unless it just makes you panic and lose your mind. Don't sweat it too much. If something happens, get the bike back to the shop and they should warranty the levers for you. SRAM is really good about that. Just enjoy your new bike.


I agree. Plus if it is a new bike there is probably a high chance it has the new piston. Leave it out in the sun on a 90 degree day and you will know. Until it's ~90 degrees there isn't the potential of a problem anyway.


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## 410sprint (Oct 19, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> If they stick after a few months, it's the old ones. If it takes a year, the new!


Exactly.


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## EBG 18T (Dec 31, 2005)

Just this happen today in a new set fresh out of the package. Rear is fine, front not so much. I'll be calling SRAM Monday. So disappointing. Glad my Magura MT Trail Carbons will be here shortly.


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## socalntv (Jan 26, 2010)

Steel Calf said:


> you wouldn't be the first...
> View attachment 1077955


This is classic, if I spent more time online I wouldn't have missed it!


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## V8Interceptor (Aug 24, 2014)

Jeez, reading this thread makes me think twice. The 2017 bike model (Fuel EX9) I want come with Guide RS, but the model below it (EX8) runs Shimano. I guess I could just bite the bullet, and get the bike I want that comes with the RS knowing that my other bikes in the garage have Shimano. Sounds like I'll be using those bikes while my new bike is waiting for warranty.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

V8Interceptor said:


> Jeez, reading this thread makes me think twice. The 2017 bike model (Fuel EX9) I want come with Guide RS..


Just take them off as soon as you get the bike and put Shimano on. I did this myself, removed the Formula brakes and put on XT. Part of the reason I did that was all my other bikes being Shimano. I didn't want two sets of service stuff; oil, pads, tools etc and the Formula had a reputation for leaking and sticking.

I can't imagine why Sram brakes have poor resale value ;0)


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> Just take them off as soon as you get the bike and put Shimano on. I did this myself, removed the Formula brakes and put on XT. Part of the reason I did that was all my other bikes being Shimano. I didn't want two sets of service stuff; oil, pads, tools etc and the Formula had a reputation for leaking and sticking.
> 
> I can't imagine why Sram brakes have poor resale value ;0)


Right. And since the resale value is so low, just box them up and ship them to me, it'll keep them from cluttering up your bike shed.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Cotharyus said:


> Right. And since the resale value is so low, just box them up and ship them to me..


I have never owned Avid/SRAM brakes, but know a lot of guys who used to ;0)


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## V8Interceptor (Aug 24, 2014)

I'd like to run full Shimano vs X1 with XT Brakes. I guess I'll either get the EX8, or wait until the summer to see when the new models come out.


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

FWIW, my LBS got a guide RS lever with this issue replaced under warranty for me. The shop owner didn't know about it but said he'd check into it. I guess one of his other customers had this issue out in the desert last year, so I think they get some replacements too!


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## V8Interceptor (Aug 24, 2014)

Too many stories about these brakes for me, however it does seem that Guides are being putting on most builds out there in the marketplace (Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz, etc). They've either hammered out these issues or SRAM is selling them so cheap to the OEM that they can't help themselves to put them on their bikes. Wondering if Guides have the same quality as OE Wheelsets.


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## JCWages (Jan 26, 2015)

V8Interceptor said:


> Jeez, reading this thread makes me think twice. The 2017 bike model (Fuel EX9) I want come with Guide RS, but the model below it (EX8) runs Shimano. I guess I could just bite the bullet, and get the bike I want that comes with the RS knowing that my other bikes in the garage have Shimano. Sounds like I'll be using those bikes while my new bike is waiting for warranty.


The last 4 bikes I have used long term have had Guide RS brakes and all of them worked perfectly. I liked them so much I spec'd my newest bike with the RSC. On the flip side, my GF's Recluse came equipped with the RS and her front brake is having this issue. Good to know it is an easy fix and warrantied in most cases.


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## Dahoos78 (Nov 22, 2016)

Here is my story so that it may help someone out there having issues. Guide RSCs here. I just started having the sticking lever problem this past winter after having the bike/brakes for a year. It occurred on a warmer winter day, then returned to proper position the next day when it was colder. After reading this thread I heated the lever area up with a hairdryer and sure enough, the sticking occurred. To those who ordered bikes with Guides not through LBS... I ordered my bike direct from OnOne (built and shipped out of UK) and did not want to deal with any nightmare scenario of returning brakes via original company/shipping/etc. BUT I went into LBS and they were great. Contacted Sram and Sram sent new brakes to shop. A solid LBS will help you out. And SRAM usually has great CS. Anyway, as I'm told issue with lever is during a small run, the part manufacturer in China used a different material to make the white piston everyone is sanding down. Material is very susceptible to temp changes. Whether true or not, thats the story I got. The fault of either material or design, there is no doubt temperature is the culprit.


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## Dahoos78 (Nov 22, 2016)

You'll be fine. And if not, your shop/SRAM will take care of it. At this point it is a known issue with a small production run of the lever components. Don't let it stop you from buying the bike you like.


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## EBG 18T (Dec 31, 2005)

Dahoos78 said:


> Don't let it stop you from buying the bike you like.


I agree, just have the shop swap out the brakes to something else. Shimano, Hope or Magura (my new favorite).


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

My 2016 Devinci Troy Carbon SX (Guide R brakes)is experiencing a similar issue. I haven't even ridden the bike yet. The brakes were fine for a few months when I first got the bike, no rubbing, levers felt great, but now both front and rear brakes are rubbing and the levers don't return all the way. This is indoors around 68F. Is the current SRAM brake problem only with the levers or with pistons too? I bought the bike online. I'm hoping my LBS can service the warranty.
Update: I exposed the lever to to a hair drier on low for 30 seconds and it locked up solid.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Aglo said:


> Just to but in, I don't have Guides and don't have nothing against them, but isn't the stiky piston thing covered by warranty?
> Why is everyone trying to buy a pair of pistons instead of send them to SRAM?


It's gets annoying sending **** to Sram every 7 days 


useport80 said:


> i just bought a new 2017 bike that will come with guide rs brakes. is there any way for me to determine if i have an old or newly designed brake lever?


My wife has a 2016 Salsa Mukluk with Guide R's 
She has about 60 miles on it. Temp hit 90 this weekend. Rear brake started to have problems


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## RU4REAL (Dec 30, 2008)

Holy cow, it's sad to hear that SRAM still cant figure out how to build brakes. I'm shopping for a new bike that comes with Guide RS brakes, and just doing some research to see if they were any improvement to the old Avids. Sounds like I should plan on budgeting for a pair of XT brakes on top of the bike purchase


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

RU4REAL said:


> Sounds like I should plan on budgeting for a pair of XT brakes on top of the bike purchase


If you put the SRAMs on ebay someone will buy them.

I know, beats me too :0)


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## RU4REAL (Dec 30, 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> If you put the SRAMs on ebay someone will buy them.
> 
> I know, beats me too :0)


Yup, that's what I did with my other bike's Avid brakes


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## Shmitty (Mar 24, 2015)

Another SRAM failure: I posted earlier in the thread about my Guide RSC and they were warranty replaced and working well. Since then I bought a new Tallboy and it came with SRAM Level brakes. Worked great for about 5 months now doing the EXACT SAME THING. Levers not returning, and I left the bike on the car rack in the sun for about 15 minutes and they locked up. After I get these warrantied, I think I'm going to be an XT guy

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Shmitty said:


> After I get these warrantied, I think I'm going to be an XT guy.


Learning by your mistakes, smart.
Learning by other people's, smarter. 
Still running SRAM brakes? Not the full bag of rabbits.


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

My bike shop said SRAM never covers their labor costs for warranty work.


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## EBG 18T (Dec 31, 2005)

Shmitty said:


> After I get these warrantied, I think I'm going to be an XT guy
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Or look at the new Magura stuff. I am currently replacing customers SRAM brakes with Magura's. Personally I removed my failed SRAM RS's and installed Magura MT Trail Carbons. Much better, great modulation and so easy to bleed.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

Never bothered reading this thread, because my levers never stuck. I was fortunate that this happened today on a short local loop trail, rather than on a 35-40 mile ride day after tomorrow, and I only had to ride with just a front brake for a couple of miles.
Said loop trail is also less than 2 miles from the LBS. They were aware of the issue, said SRAM was great to deal with, and would replace/possibly upgrade with no hassle. Good to know you're covered!
Actually remembered seeing this thread's title, pulled it up and skimmed it at the TH. Pouring cold water from my cooler indeed freed up the lever. Crazy that it happened after ~14 months. Those brakes are fantastic; hope they have the problem all sorted out.
I wonder if they'd send replacements, but let me keep these, and fix them(?). Apparently having a spare set wouldn't be a bad thing!
Guess I'm gonna be riding a blacked out bike with white Hayes Dyno Comps that came on a Trek Cobia Wednesday


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

My mate who keeps buying SRAM/Avid brakes came round this evening for a ride. He has SRAM Guide brakes now. I lifted the front wheel and gave it a spin, or rather I tried to! Moved about a foot and stopped. Pulled the brake lever, let it go, same thing. 

I said to him 'Isn't this bit supposed to go round?'.


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## DM-SC (Jan 12, 2004)

Since I bought a 2016 Niner RKT with DB5's back in February, I have been wondering how long it'd take for one or both levers to act up.

Sure enough, as soon as the temps reached the mid 70's here, the rear isn't returning. 

My LBS ordered a replacement from SRAM today.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Mr Pig said:


> My mate who keeps buying SRAM/Avid brakes came round this evening for a ride. He has SRAM Guide brakes now. I lifted the front wheel and gave it a spin, or rather I tried to! Moved about a foot and stopped. Pulled the brake lever, let it go, same thing.
> 
> I said to him 'Isn't this bit supposed to go round?'.


Seriously, do you have anything useful to contribute other then "I hate Sram"?

Go away, we get it.

I've beat the **** out of my Guides for two years, my rear seems to be sticking now. I'll fix them and keep going, non of the Shimano brakes I have tried performed nearly as well with my riding especially the XTR. I was okay with the Deore brakes I tried, but still not the lever feel I get on the guide.

On top, my LBS always complains about Shimano's business practice, but Sram has always been easy to deal with.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Sidewalk said:


> Seriously, do you have anything useful to contribute other then "I hate Sram"?


I don't hate SRAM. No one is forcing me to buy SRAM brakes so they have no impact on my life whatsoever and I am perfectly happy with the SRAM products that work. We'll see how chirpy _you _are when your brakes jam on miles away from home. See how much you love the 'feel' that day ;0)

So SRAM after-sales is good? Well they are getting a lot of practice I suppose.

And by the way, this is the internet. It's not some private club of yours and anyone is free to post an opinion. I happen to think that letting people know how unreliable SRAM can be is potentially useful information. If you don't like my opinion feel free to go back to your safe-space but don't expect me to be going anywhere.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Mr Pig said:


> safe-space but don't expect me to be going anywhere.


Oh, sweetheart, you just proved you aren't worth my time.

That said, I need to go feed my horses and clean the pasture. Because cleaning manure is a WAY better use of time then talking to anyone pathetic enough to use "safe space" to talk tough.

l'll just add you to my ignore list later, since you will clearly never provide useful information.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Someone has their panties in a bunch. Seeing as Sram brake failures are multiple mega threads the facts speak for themselves.

Sram has always had reliability issues with their brakes from the times of Avid (why they changed the name, no one wanted avid hydraulic brake anything).

Shimano has had minimal issues. They just work. May not have the lever feel or modulation that some people want but they work and work reliably.

I don't hate Sram, have their drivetrain on now 2 of my 3 bikes. They make great forks too (Rock Shox) but they still haven't gotten their mid level brakes figured out yet. Getting better though compared to the Avids of old.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## DM-SC (Jan 12, 2004)

Well, my replacement DB5 rear lever is at my LBS. Two days to get it is pretty good CS.

I'll give the DB5's a while longer before switching.

Sent from my VK810 4G using Tapatalk


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

RAKC Ind said:


> Someone has their panties in a bunch. Seeing as Sram brake failures are multiple mega threads the facts speak for themselves.
> 
> Sram has always had reliability issues with their brakes from the times of Avid (why they changed the name, no one wanted avid hydraulic brake anything).
> 
> ...


The whole lever feel is simple to solve, get the race levers- no servo wave.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Ive only ridden xt on down to the lower brakes that don't have servo wave. I've noticed on ones with servo wave they bite a little harder at first but can't find a difference when I'm on the brakes hard. Not sure what to expect out of race levers but I'm considering just going Zee brakes. Being a big guy and limited to 180mm front rotors has some limitations.

Edit:. I just googled the race levers...With is the difference between those and the lower grade brake levers without it? Except obviously quality and weight?

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

RAKC Ind said:


> Ive only ridden xt on down to the lower brakes that don't have servo wave. I've noticed on ones with servo wave they bite a little harder at first but can't find a difference when I'm on the brakes hard. Not sure what to expect out of race levers but I'm considering just going Zee brakes. Being a big guy and limited to 180mm front rotors has some limitations.
> 
> Edit:. I just googled the race levers...With is the difference between those and the lower grade brake levers without it? Except obviously quality and weight?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


I can't say as I haven't ridden non servo wave brakes. I like them and they work for me. Somewhere else I've read about a lot of guys mixing race lever for the feel/weight with saint calipers for the 4 pots.

Obviously do some reason if that intrigues you before going down that path.

I'd love to try a bike with race brakes on my trails to see if I can feel a difference, but I doubt that opportunity will present itself.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I've been looking more closely. The lever ratio to master cylinder piston movement looks to be different compared to Shimano a entry brakes without servo-wave.

I may get "crazy" and just buy a zee caliper and hook up my entry lever and see what happens. I'd like more braking power so I can push deeper before braking but the initial hard bite point of servo wave may be a bit of a problem for me.

I would give new Sram brakes a try but DOT fluid is too much maintanence and its nasty crap (dealt with the crap for decades with vehicles, hate the crap) though I have fluid always on hand lol. On thing I love about Shimano. Set up and done. Don't touch the brakes for a couple years at least.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

RAKC Ind said:


> I've been looking more closely. The lever ratio to master cylinder piston movement looks to be different compared to Shimano a entry brakes without servo-wave.
> 
> I may get "crazy" and just buy a zee caliper and hook up my entry lever and see what happens. I'd like more braking power so I can push deeper before braking but the initial hard bite point of servo wave may be a bit of a problem for me.
> 
> ...


That's why I won't switch. Converted my 2000 SWorks FSR to XT 4 pot brakes in 2001. Those brakes have been on several bikes since and are currently on my wife's bike. Never bled, working as good as when I first got them. Mineral Oil lasts forever on your shelf, DOT doesn't.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

RAKC Ind said:


> I may get "crazy" and just buy a zee caliper and hook up my entry lever and see what happens.


Why not just buy complete ZEE brakes? Most users seem to like them. Not all Shimano levers and callipers will play nice as they can have different 'pull' ratios and use different inner diameter brake lines. I'm not saying that mixing won't work but.

Servo-wave is not terrible, it's just different. I ride bikes with both servo and non-servo Shimano brakes and it doesn't bother me. I'm happy with either. You just use them slightly differently.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm used to it from my 29er. But having noticed the initial bite that others don't like (I did) I have been in a mental debate as I know I need more brakes these days. But the initial bite has me concerned.

Probably just going to go for it.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

RAKC Ind said:


> I'm used to it from my 29er. But having noticed the initial bite that others don't like (I did) I have been in a mental debate as I know I need more brakes these days. But the initial bite has me concerned.
> 
> Probably just going to go for it.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Good Read

http://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/saint-m820-calipers-xtr-race-m9000-levers-possible-994897.html


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

^^ thanks.

Seems the zee/saint brakes don't bite as hard. And running other levers work but can be headache inducing.

Think I'll just dive in an go ZEEs. Having brakes that I not cranking on the levers with all 1 finger has when I need to stop hard and fast will be a welcome change now. Progressing as a rider is a pain sometimes, especially as a clyde 

Thanks guys, sorry I spun the thread off onto shimanos.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

I noticed a difference when I went to 203F and 180R rotors


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

The biggest problem with these manufacturers(be it SRAM, Shimano, or anyone else) who you have to go through a dealer with is that you're dependent on that dealer or LBS. Since a week had gone by, I called the shop. My LBS has multiple locations and pretty much dominates the bike trade around here. They are also about the worst business I have ever dealt with in my 30yrs as an employed and independent consumer.
Should have known-they hadn't done a thing. Called SRAM after I checked in yesterday, but never called me back. I drove over and got my brakes today, and am going to fix them myself. Have two of the cheaper Guide/DB5 kits with new pistons on the way(no need to buy the RS kit, this doesn't concern the swingarm). Turns out it's a fairly simple job, except for that freaking snapring. Soon as I get some pliers ground down to fit in there, actually changing out the pistons is a <10min job.
After seeing all the crap built up in there, disassembly and cleaning should probably be done as yearly maintenance, anyway.

btw, I talked to one of SRAM's warranty guys today. He was messing with a Guide RS lever, and told me he was filing down some snapring pliers to use, because the one in the levers is such a PITA to get hold of. At least I don't feel alone in my frustration about having to buy new pliers and immediatel take a Dremel to them...
He also checked my serial #s to confirm they were in the same date range as the others with problems. Aside from my obvious issue with not being able to get personal service on any of their products, I wouldn't hesitate to buy, or worry over, more recent Guides, since they should be free of this problem.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

OwenM said:


> The biggest problem with these manufacturers(be it SRAM, Shimano, or anyone else) who you have to go through a dealer with is that you're dependent on that dealer or LBS. Since a week had gone by, I called the shop. My LBS has multiple locations and pretty much dominates the bike trade around here. They are also about the worst business I have ever dealt with in my 30yrs as an employed and independent consumer.
> Should have known-they hadn't done a thing. Called SRAM after I checked in yesterday, but never called me back. I drove over and got my brakes today, and am going to fix them myself. Have two of the cheaper Guide/DB5 kits with new pistons on the way(no need to buy the RS kit, this doesn't concern the swingarm). Turns out it's a fairly simple job, except for that freaking snapring. Soon as I get some pliers ground down to fit in there, actually changing out the pistons is a <10min job.
> After seeing all the crap built up in there, disassembly and cleaning should probably be done as yearly maintenance, anyway.
> 
> ...


You don't have to go through a dealer for Shimano unlike Sram.


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## DM-SC (Jan 12, 2004)

OwenM said:


> My LBS has multiple locations and pretty much dominates the bike trade around here. They are also about the worst business I have ever dealt with in my 30yrs as an employed and independent consumer.
> Should have known-they hadn't done a thing.


We used to have a LBS like that here. Always saying we should buy from them but they didn't keep much in stock. They'd say 'We can order it for you!'. Get them to order then three weeks later, still nothing.

Thankfully, they are gone and the other shops are great!

They had my new lever in 2 days and had it installed the same day I took it in.


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## Shmitty (Mar 24, 2015)

Shmitty said:


> Another SRAM failure: I posted earlier in the thread about my Guide RSC and they were warranty replaced and working well. Since then I bought a new Tallboy and it came with SRAM Level brakes. Worked great for about 5 months now doing the EXACT SAME THING. Levers not returning, and I left the bike on the car rack in the sun for about 15 minutes and they locked up. After I get these warrantied, I think I'm going to be an XT guy
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Well I made the switch XT on my Tallboy. The LBS was only going to give me $50 for the SRAM brakes once they come back for warranty. If anybody wants these you can PM me. The shop had about 20 boxes of warrantied SRAM brakes they had swapped out.

Still have my Guide RSC on my other bike. Working well after the warranty (for now)

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Well, I think I might be another 'victim' of the defective Guide RS levers. I picked up a brand new Salsa Bucksaw carbon this past Wednesday. Thursday I piddled around getting seat height and brake and shift lever angles just to my liking, and took a short (street) ride locally just to get a feel for the bike. 

Friday I played around with suspension settings. It was our first day with temperatures in the 70s so I brought the bike out onto my deck to enjoy the fine weather. A neighbor dropped by and we chatted for about 30 minutes; when he left I went to move the bike and the front wheel was practically locked up. The bike had been in direct sunlight aimed at the front of the bike for about 45 minutes. Of course I was ignorant of this thread and this apparently widespread problem at the time, but a quick google search led me here.

As others have reported, once the levers cooled off when I brought the bike back inside the lever started functioning more normally, but not quite as well as the rear lever which remained unaffected. By morning the front lever was even closer to normal but the travel before pad contact seemed less compared to the rear whereas before the overheating event they seemed the same.

Okay, so sorry for that long-winded recap. It seems like most people have had problems with their levers after some time, not almost immediately as in my case. This is a (brand new out of the box) leftover 2016 Bucksaw so no doubt it has the non-updated levers, and I wonder if them sitting for so long unused aggravated the problem with the defective piston? Maybe not but the thought did cross my mind...

For anyone who's interested here are the serial numbers from the calipers (I don't believe the levers have serial numbers, correct?):
Front: 17T59002388
Rear: 34T49000631
The numbers seem to be pretty far apart, so maybe my rear lever is from a 'good' batch, if there is such a thing. I am new to SRAM's part number system, but I would guess the rear is from a later batch due to the higher initial numbers/letter i.e. 17T vs. 34T. Maybe others could post their serial numbers if they wanted to.

I called LBS where I bought bike on Friday and he (owner/mechanic) said he was unaware of the problem with these brakes. In his defense his shop is fairly new, is in Bismarck, N. Dakota, and sells mostly entry to mid-level bikes as there is not much market for high-end bikes in Bismarck, so he may not have sold many bikes with these brakes. He assured me he would take care of me and I have no doubt he will. He also owns a Bucksaw exactly like mine, but has converted it to Eagle already, so am not sure if that included different brakes and/or levers. 
Shop owner said he called SRAM on Friday late in the day, but everyone had already bailed for the weekend. In any case, he said he would call SRAM first thing Monday morning, and I'll let y'all know what happens.

The bummer is that I'm heading down to Colorado and Wyoming on Wednesday and was pretty excited about taking the new bike. But, I have lived long enough to know that sometimes these things happen, and a guy can make himself pretty miserable banging his head against a wall in frustration. I guess if they replace the lever(s) I'll just run 'em 'til they fail (again?) and then just go Shimano as I've always liked them and their trouble-free nature. Too bad really as I was pretty impressed with the Guides -- until they were so cruelly defeated by minor exposure to a hot flaming ball in the sky some 93 million miles away.


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

Let us know how it goes. My LBS made me pay for labor for both levers. Said SRAM wouldn't pay for it. Ridiculous!


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Scottyman said:


> Let us know how it goes. My LBS made me pay for labor for both levers. Said SRAM wouldn't pay for it. Ridiculous!


I'll be sure to let every one know how it turns out. I can't believe your LBS made you pay the labor, that's BS. I can't imagine SRAM (or my shop's owner) will try to make me pay labor on a brand new bike. They really don't want to get to know my persuasive side I assure you, but I really don't think it will go there.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Shmitty said:


> The shop had about 20 boxes of warrantied SRAM brakes they had swapped out.


Twenty boxes, in one shop? Gulp! :0.


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Scottyman said:


> Let us know how it goes. My LBS made me pay for labor for both levers. Said SRAM wouldn't pay for it. Ridiculous!


I thought some more about this Scottyman, and thought I'd reply as you made this statement I believe twice in this thread now and nobody responded. You didn't state whether the bike and/or brakes were still under warranty which could influence how SRAM handles the labor angle, but conversely there's a whole bunch of anectodal and other evidence out there that this is a known problem with these brakes which should somewhat mitigate their in-or-out of warranty status.

In most all cases like this the smart, responsive thing for a company to do would be to perform a goodwill replacement of the part along with covering the labor. In other words, or, in the words of product liability attorneys, do you feel like you've been 'made whole' by SRAM's resolution of the problem? Or not?

Really it's up to them what taste gets left in your mouth by the experience. Will it be sweet and forgiving? Or will it be bitter and long lasting with commensurate damage to their reputation?

Myself, I've never had to deal with a SRAM warranty issue before, so I'm keeping an open mind at this point.


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

Maxeymum said:


> I thought some more about this Scottyman, and thought I'd reply as you made this statement I believe twice in this thread now and nobody responded. You didn't state whether the bike and/or brakes were still under warranty which could influence how SRAM handles the labor angle, but conversely there's a whole bunch of anectodal and other evidence out there that this is a known problem with these brakes which should somewhat mitigate their in-or-out of warranty status.
> 
> In most all cases like this the smart, responsive thing for a company to do would be to perform a goodwill replacement of the part along with covering the labor. In other words, or, in the words of product liability attorneys, do you feel like you've been 'made whole' by SRAM's resolution of the problem? Or not?
> 
> ...


Yes, the brakes were under warranty. Otherwise, I would have simply gone XT.


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Scottyman said:


> Yes, the brakes were under warranty. Otherwise, I would have simply gone XT.


Man, it almost sounds like your shop just didn't want to be bothered with what I assume would be some paperwork required to have SRAM reimburse them for the labor. Maybe someone more intimately acquainted with how these claims work in a shop can chime in as I can't claim to have any expertise on those procedures. I just know that when any part still under warranty has failed on any motorcycle or car I've ever owned labor was always covered by the dealer/manufacturer. As a matter of fact, the question of who would pay labor never even came up. This is why I suspect your dealer is just lazy, incompetent, ineffective or all of the above.


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

Maxeymum said:


> Man, it almost sounds like your shop just didn't want to be bothered with what I assume would be some paperwork required to have SRAM reimburse them for the labor. Maybe someone more intimately acquainted with how these claims work in a shop can chime in as I can't claim to have any expertise on those procedures. I just know that when any part still under warranty has failed on any motorcycle or car I've ever owned labor was always covered by the dealer/manufacturer. As a matter of fact, the question of who would pay labor never even came up. This is why I suspect your dealer is just lazy, incompetent, ineffective or all of the above.


You left out dishonest.


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Scottyman said:


> You left out dishonest.


Indeed I did -- I absolutely should've mentioned that. Myself, I'm not one to let people get away with things so easily. I'd call SRAM and recap the whole sordid story of how your dealer treated your warranty claim. The dealer will either get their act together which will benefit fellow consumers, or their reputation will one day catch up to them. And you might even get reimbursed for the labor after all.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

Maxeymum said:


> This is why I suspect your dealer is just lazy, incompetent, ineffective or all of the above.





Scottyman said:


> You left out dishonest.


Y'all have my LBS pegged! Knew better than to get them involved. They're the reason I have so many tools, and have learned to do everything bike-related except build wheels.

My lever internals kits and Knipex 4811J1 pliers(edit for the sake of anyone who might read this later and consider the 4811J1 for the same use: these did require a few minutes with a file on the top/bottom/outside edges of the prongs to fit the snapring) are both coming tomorrow. I may be out another $40, but it beats having to deal with other people.
Just paid ~$9ea for the kits + $4 shipping. DIY may be a good option for anyone who doesn't mind a few minutes' work and a brake bleed.
Beautiful weather all week, so hopefully I'll be up and running tomorrow:thumbsup:


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

OwenM said:


> Y'all have my LBS pegged! Knew better than to get them involved. They're the reason I have so many tools, and have learned to do everything bike-related except build wheels.
> 
> My lever internals kits and Knipex 4811J1 pliers(which should be perfect-I hope, I hope!) are both coming tomorrow. I may be out another $40, but it beats having to deal with other people.
> Just paid ~$9ea for the kits + $4 shipping. DIY may be a good option for anyone who doesn't mind a few minutes' work and a brake bleed.
> Beautiful weather all week, so hopefully I'll be up and running tomorrow:thumbsup:


Yes, sir, agreed. Same here with my LMS (local motorcycle shop). I'm much better at maintaining and repairing my motorcycles than I was 10 years ago. Their incompetence forced me to up my game.

I'll get this set warrantied as it's a new bike, but if I don't decide to switch to Shimano at some point, I'll try the rebuild kit as you are.


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

I even talked to SRAM directly and they said they go "by a case by case basis" (about labor costs) which doesn't make any sense to me because the brakes were under warranty and labor SHOULD be included for repairing their damn defective product. I don't know who's being the #ssholes, SRAM or my LBS.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

SRAM said what!!?
It's not their choice to do so, their product is defective, so it's their obligation to make right by you, it's not an option.
And your LBS is full of ****, if my LBS tried to extort me money to repair anything under warranty you can be sure I would be calling the cops.


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Well, that is surprising, and disappointing, Scottyman. Apparently they aren't required under all warranty conditions to cover the labor (I just looked up some Fed. Trade Commission regulations) for a warrantied part, but, wow, is it stupid of them not to, especially, as you say, if they're replacing a defective design part. It's called goodwill -- and can in all cases be exercised at their discretion. As I said previously, it's up to them what kind of taste they leave in your mouth regarding their company.

I will object strenuously, and I mean STRENUOUSLY, if they try this in my case. Is it really worth it to SRAM to cheap out on a warranty repair if that customer in future goes out of their way to avoid their product, not to mention bad mouths them to whoever will listen? I would say nope, not even close to worth it...


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I'll chime in on something here:

Did through SRAMs warranty policy. There is usually a part of it specifying time frame from purchase that labor is included. Like in most products there is a limited time frame before say a customer is required to pay the shipping back to the company for warranty repair/replacement.

If you take your car to a shop and have a part replaced, the part itself is warranties, labor is not. Depending on how labor intensive the replacement is determines how much labor the shop may be gracious and not charge for. But NO manufacturer (outside of the actual car manufacturers) of parts in the auto industry or pretty much any other covers labor charges. If labor is covered in a warranty matter, then that's because the shop (or whatever industry independent service center) charges you a lot higher rates up front to offset the costs of eating labor on something they have no control over.

Now of you bought your bike at said shop and spend more there than just the bike, then I too would expect labor to be covered on something as simple as fixing brakes. If not then can't expect them to eat the charge. Its in every brands warranty policy that installed parts are governed by that companies warranty policy. In this case SRAM.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

OK, warranty must be different in different countries, because if something brakes under warranty, I don't have to pay nothing in my country, if I bought it online at most I have to pay shippings, and that's it.
Make you pay for repairs for something that you bought new and is defective is, without a better word, extortion.
If he bought the brakes and the bike as a whole, why should he pay for them to repair it. It doesn't make sense.


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

RAKC Ind said:


> I'll chime in on something here:
> 
> Did through SRAMs warranty policy. There is usually a part of it specifying time frame from purchase that labor is included. Like in most products there is a limited time frame before say a customer is required to pay the shipping back to the company for warranty repair/replacement.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if what you assert in the second paragraph operates here. It sounds like you're describing a shop that is not an official dealer's shop, but in either case you need to be more specific about it. I'm talking about OEM parts still under warranty whereas the scenario you describe could be either in or out of warranty or could be an official dealer's shop or a independent shop. Not trying to bust your chops, I'm just saying your scenario is a little too vague to be of much help here. If a part fails on your say, Honda or Toyota, while the vehicle is still under warranty, parts AND labor will be covered by the manufacturer. Also, and this might address your assertion in the second paragraph -- if your OEM Kayaba struts on your Honda fail, or the OEM Nippondenso ignition components on your Toyota fail, Honda and Toyota will still cover labor even though they were not the manufacturer of the parts, but merely purchased them from an official supplier. In my case, SRAM is in effect an official supplier to Salsa bicycles. However, I acknowledge that the arrangement in the bicycle industry may be treated somewhat differently than what I above described for the typical automobile. If it is I have to wonder why. Are the margins so thin in the bicycle business that they will fight harder for the labor costs? Could be, and if that's the case, I have some empathy. But again, at least in my case, I don't feel obligated whatsoever to cover the labor costs to replace a part on a brand new bike. I'd call it PR suicide to start pissing off people with a new bike, especially in the case of these brakes with the known and widely acknowledged defective pistons.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Actually yes my response was broad (and mistyped a couple words).

There is a HUGE difference there though that your missing.

Honda holds the legal rights to those struts. They are Honda specific. They are made by say Kayaba but Honda owns the rights too them and it's a specific contract. Struts are made specifically off Honda's design requirements. Kayaba cannot produce those exact same shocks for ANYONE. (I spent the last few years in manufacturing, and my entire adult life as an automotive technician, learn a lot more than I excepted would be of any use). Same with Toyotas ignition. It's designed and manufactured specifically for Toyota. Toyota owns the rights and everything (including any specialized tooling required). This goes for ALL major automotive brands. Hell even applies to things like your weed trimmer. 

That way of thinking is the same as saying Giant should warranty a Trek frame because Giant owned factories build the Trek frames.

Sram DOES NOT make brakes specific to brand of bikes so there is no intellectual property contract. Like ALMOST all of the products Sram or Shimano makes, they are more or less universal between bikes. So they are then classified as "aftermarket" in a basic sense. Only exception is the case where a components company makes a brand bike/frame specific component.

Like I said, read ANY major brands warranty policy. Like Trek for instance because it's widely known. They have their own brand of wheels, tires and such. Those are covered under Treks warranty, clearly posted on their warranty over view all other non-trek/bontrager branded components are subject to "fill in fox, Sram, Shimano, etc here" warranty policies. Since the brakes are made for all bikes that except hydraulic disc with straight bars, they are not bike/brand specific and subject to SRAMs warranty.

So if the failure of the brakes was in the first couple rides, chances are brand will cover labor. If it's several months down the road Sram has no way (not making an excuse here as it's well documented of these specific brake failures, typical Sram/avid brake BS) of knowing if the brakes were truly a manufacturing/design defect or some outside condition caused the failure.

All that said, OPs bike was bought at said Lbs new and so on, the LBS under normal circumstances should cover the labor (it takes less than 20 minutes to swap out brakes) but we only know what's posted here. 

SRAM should be covering labor in this sense due to the fact it's a known issue but they may be stopping due to the huge losses their taking as some shops likely charge far more than what they would charge a regular customer to install. Just like doctor's charge insurance almost twice to insurance companies than they charge to a person who is or will be paying cash. We don't know LBS - Sram relationship and likely a cause for hesitation to cover labor. They should take some info from.the automotive industry on this. They time their fastest and most skilled engineer to swap out brakes. That amount of time (warranty flat rate) or flat dollar amount to all shops for labor and done.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

RAKC Ind, thanks for your educational and informed answer. I understand what you're saying about Kayaba struts etc. being proprietary to Honda and even to specific models in their lineup, and I can now more clearly see how the supplier relationship is different in the automotive and bicycle industries.

As to the comment about some bicycle shops charging SRAM much more than others for warranty labor, I guess I'd say SRAM ought to establish some standard rates, but that's ultimately their problem alone, and it shouldn't make it more likely that the shop will require the customer to eat warranty labor costs.

I also think SRAM have put themselves in this position with their quality control failure to ensure an erroneous size variance in this cheap nylon piston didn't set off the chain reaction that has led to who-knows-how-big of a warranty claim. No doubt it's eating into their bottom line, but again, I would posit that it's wrong, unethical even, if SRAM has in mind to mitigate the cost by passing some of the labor costs along to the customer. Excepting of course those cases as you mentioned where the product has been in service for a certain amount of time and it becomes harder to determine if there are other factors now in play.

Anyways, all very interesting and educational. Now I'm even more curious to see what my outcome is come tomorrow morning. I don't really expect any trouble as the bike has been ridden twice and not even off road yet, but I think our conversation is more concerned with people who are in a different circumstance with brakes still, however, under warranty. Cheers.


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## DM-SC (Jan 12, 2004)

I paid my LBS labor to replace my rear DB5 lever. They didn't sell me the bike (that LBS closed) so it wasn't a big deal.

As to covering the labor on a warranty claim, it varies quite a bit from company to company. It's normally covered by the original seller/installer.

For example, my wife and I bought a new house 3 years ago. The HVAC system crapped out. The original installer was out of business so I had to call another HVAC dealer for the repairs. The manufacturer covered the cost of the parts under the warranty but I had to pay the new HVAC dealer for their labor to install.

The auto industry is set up differently in that they cover both parts and labor for warranty repairs made under the original vehicle warranty. They usually only cover the part and not the labor on replacement parts installed after the original vehicle warranty has expired.

Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

UPDATE: Just spoke to my bike shop. New updated levers front and rear on the way from SRAM. Only my front was locking up in the heat, but to recap I submitted the serial# for both front and rear in case both fell into the serial# range of defective levers (whatever that may be as I don't think the public has any idea).

If they arrive tomorrow and get installed ASAP I'll be able to take the bike with me on my CO/WY trip I have coming up on Wednesday. I texted owner to ask if they're overnighting them, but all he said was that they are coming from Chicago so they might get here in time.

We didn't discuss who will pay for labor as I am not going to mention it and am going to operate on the assumption that it won't be me.

Will give more updates as I get them. Cheers.


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## Johnsonad11 (Sep 7, 2015)

I've had a dozen Avid brakes over the years and despite all my friends and my LBS having all sorts of issues, I never had one. Never even had to bleed any of them. Well, my luck has finally caught up - I have two sets of Guide RSCs, and both are junk. One set I got from a friend a couple years ago so I'm sure SRAM won't do crap for those, the other set is just over a year old. This should be a recall, this is not an isolated issue it's a bad design. It's a shame to pay this much for a brake to have these issues - a cheap, low end model would be more expected and I'd be more ok if I had issues with a set of Elixir 1s - but over $200 each and after a year they're junk... I'll be doing the sandpaper trick but these will be the last (especially higher end) SRAM brakes I buy. Shame because I did like them when they work.


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## spin4spin (Aug 27, 2015)

this is the information i received from SRAM regarding my faulty brakes... this should be a recalled item. My brakes failed while out on the trail... dangerous situation for sure.

ank you for your message. We’d be happy to assist you through our warranty and service process. SRAM has a two year from purchase date warranty policy on all products. We facilitate all of our warranties and service evaluations via local bicycle dealers at your original point of purchase. Please bring your brakes and your original proof of purchase to the bike dealer you've bought it through, and they will be able to contact our affiliate service center in their area for a warranty claim assessment. While not a recalled item (which is heavily regulated by the CPSC) we do have an updated brake internals kit for this issue and are covering these items under warranty. 

The manufacture date on the spares package does mean something- what we mean is that we don't have visibility if a part has been installed into a brake or fork after it has left the factory. We don't have a way of tracking your modifications once they have been completed outside of our system.

That being said, we updated the piston kit on week 26 of 2016. Your kits look to be the updated versions. If you are continuing to have issues with your brakes, please have your local dealer contact our Dealer Service warranty center. We are aware of this issue, and are working to fix or replace levers with any dealer that contacts us with this concern.


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## ban (Jul 24, 2004)

Ok good to know. Is there a way to know the date of the brakes?? Is there somewhere in the serial number?


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Quick Update on my Guide RS situation: As related earlier, my front lever was not returning on a brand new bike so my bike shop called SRAM which agreed to send new Fr. & Rr. levers. I was heading down to CO & WY to do some riding and wanted to take the new bike but was concerned about the front brake locking in the sunlight and out on the trail. Picture attached of my temporary solution, which did, in fact, allow me to ride trouble-free for three days. Insulated foam tape covering top two sides of master, wrapped in white athletic tape to keep everything cool. Custom 'Ouch' graphic applied via Sharpie. BTW, bike shop called while I was on trip and new levers have arrived. Bringing bike in Friday to get levers replaced.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

I'm waiting for my Guides to lock up as it heats up this spring, and it makes me wonder why they didn't stop painting them black as one of the first steps to remedy the situation.


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

richde said:


> I'm waiting for my Guides to lock up as it heats up this spring, and it makes me wonder why they didn't stop painting them black as one of the first steps to remedy the situation.


I think the black color certainly doesn't help, but think that even if they were silver like the RSCs they would still 'overheat' the pistons once the air temp got above a certain level, like, say, 85 or 90 degrees and up. Just a suspicion mind you.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Maxeymum said:


> I think the black color certainly doesn't help, but think that even if they were silver like the RSCs they would still 'overheat' the pistons once the air temp got above a certain level, like, say, 85 or 90 degrees and up. Just a suspicion mind you.


Yep, the color won't save you.

The white Codes were doing the exact same thing nearly ten years ago.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Maxeymum said:


> I think the black color certainly doesn't help, but think that even if they were silver like the RSCs they would still 'overheat' the pistons once the air temp got above a certain level, like, say, 85 or 90 degrees and up. Just a suspicion mind you.


it's the combination of direct sunlight + black casing that causes the issue to appear. Go outside and touch a black and a white car to feel the difference it makes.

If the casing was white there wouldn't be nearly as many problems reported. My brakes worked fine till I rode them in direct sunlight on a hot day. I think just putting white tape on the lever casing alone would remedy the issue for most people. Unfortunately I already got mine swapped so I cannot try that out myself.


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## Shmitty (Mar 24, 2015)

Maxeymum said:


> Quick Update on my Guide RS situation: As related earlier, my front lever was not returning on a brand new bike so my bike shop called SRAM which agreed to send new Fr. & Rr. levers. I was heading down to CO & WY to do some riding and wanted to take the new bike but was concerned about the front brake locking in the sunlight and out on the trail. Picture attached of my temporary solution, which did, in fact, allow me to ride trouble-free for three days. Insulated foam tape covering top two sides of master, wrapped in white athletic tape to keep everything cool. Custom 'Ouch' graphic applied via Sharpie. BTW, bike shop called while I was on trip and new levers have arrived. Bringing bike in Friday to get levers replaced.


Maybe try taping an ice pack to them when it heats up this summer....

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## zendo (Aug 29, 2015)

ban said:


> Ok good to know. Is there a way to know the date of the brakes?? Is there somewhere in the serial number?


Yes my serial number was 7APR15A which means manufactured in april of 2015. My LBS which I didn't buy the bike from, got a new set of guide ultimate levers from SRAM covered under warranty at no charge. I did the parts swap myself but they would've charged me $25 for a bleed if they had done it.


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

zendo said:


> Yes my serial number was 7APR15A which means manufactured in april of 2015. My LBS which I didn't buy the bike from, got a new set of guide ultimate levers from SRAM covered under warranty at no charge. I did the parts swap myself but they would've charged me $25 for a bleed if they had done it.


Hmmm...that's part of the serial number, with the date of manufacture? Did you get that from the caliper?

My numbers from the caliper were: Front: 17T59002388
Rear: 34T49000631


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## zendo (Aug 29, 2015)

Maxeymum said:


> Hmmm...that's part of the serial number, with the date of manufacture? Did you get that from the caliper?
> 
> My numbers from the caliper were: Front: 17T59002388
> Rear: 34T49000631


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Steel Calf said:


> it's the combination of direct sunlight + black casing that causes the issue...


Nope. It's buying the darn things in the first place! How long is it that Avid/SRAM brakes have been known to be unreliable? A decade maybe? So the issue is why people still buy them.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Mr Pig said:


> Nope. It's buying the darn things in the first place! How long is it that Avid/SRAM brakes have been known to be unreliable? A decade maybe? So the issue is why people still buy them.


Well the name changed, doesn't that make a difference?:thumbsup:


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> Nope. It's buying the darn things in the first place! How long is it that Avid/SRAM brakes have been known to be unreliable? A decade maybe? So the issue is why people still buy them.


I know some people with Avid brakes that have had years of reliable, trouble-free service, so it's not like every single one is bad. As to the Guides, I didn't buy them 'in the first place' -- they came on the bike, will be replaced under warranty free of cost, so at this point it would IMHO be stupid (and expensive) to replace them with something else. There's no evidence I believe that the upgraded levers are having the same issue. Rest assured if they become a pain in my A** once the warranty period is up (2 years hence) I'll be swapping them for something else, most likely Shimano, but to say all Avid are unreliable --which is what you implied -- is at best a stretch and also a wildly general statement.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Maxeymum said:


> ..to say all Avid are unreliable --which is what you implied -- is at best a stretch..


All of the people I know who have or used to have Avid/SRAM brakes have had problems with them. I first became aware of the issues through friend's bikes, not the internet. Of course no every brake is going to feck up but even if it's fifty-percent, twenty-percent, it's still far too likely for me.


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> All of the people I know who have or used to have Avid/SRAM brakes have had problems with them. I first became aware of the issues through friend's bikes, not the internet. Of course no every brake is going to feck up but even if it's fifty-percent, twenty-percent, it's still far too likely for me.


Fair enough, Mr. Pig. I gotta say though, I'm pretty new to the forum, and am already well aware of your aversion to Avid/SRAM brakes -- I mean I don't know if you think you're doing the world a public service by alerting us over-and-over-and-over again about these brakes, but seriously, and I'm not trying to offend you, don't you think you're getting into beating-a-dead-horse-to-death-territory-here?


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> Nope. It's buying the darn things in the first place! How long is it that Avid/SRAM brakes have been known to be unreliable? A decade maybe? So the issue is why people still buy them.


people don't buy them - they come stock on their bikes. I offered a quick fix for the only major Guide issue out there.

The new Shimano brakes have a huge bite point changing issue which can only be remedied by changing to a 3rd party mineral oil. And Maguras MT5 are quite good as long as you've hand size 12.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Maxeymum said:


> I don't know if you think you're doing the world a public service by alerting us over-and-over-and-over again about these brakes...


Actually I do. I don't hate SRAM, perfectly happy with RockShox forks, but why the heck should I not call them out on a poor product?

I can't think of any other brand of brake that is as unreliable as Avid/SRAM, can you? Formula don't seem to be brilliant but I don't think they're as bad as SRAM. Even the cheaper brands are fine. Most people don't seem to have difficulty in making brakes that work. What the deal is with the people behind the SRAM/Avid brakes I do not know but yes, I do feel that users and potential buyers should be warned that this is almost certainly the most unreliable brand of brake available. If I was the head of SRAM I'd sack the whole design department.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Steel Calf said:


> People don't buy them - they come stock on their bikes.


And? I have a bike that came with Formula brakes. I read up about them, got the impression that they were likely to be temperamental so took them off and sold them.

Sure, other companies have the odd issue with their brakes but it's nothing like Avid/SRAM. I could easily forgive them if they had a problem, sorted it out and that was the end of it but no. Year after year it's the same tired story, 'my SRAM/Avid brakes have stuck'. When is it going to end? When are they going to fix them properly?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Maxeymum said:


> I know some people with Avid brakes that have had years of reliable, trouble-free service, so it's not like every single one is bad. As to the Guides, I didn't buy them 'in the first place' -- they came on the bike, will be replaced under warranty free of cost, so at this point it would IMHO be stupid (and expensive) to replace them with something else. There's no evidence I believe that the upgraded levers are having the same issue. Rest assured if they become a pain in my A** once the warranty period is up (2 years hence) I'll be swapping them for something else, most likely Shimano, but to say all Avid are unreliable --which is what you implied -- is at best a stretch and also a wildly general statement.


It's really simple, why do you think Sram dropped the Avid name? Avid was synonymous with horrible brakes.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Actually the Guide brake is half "Avid" (the caliper from the Avid Trail) half "Sram" (completely the new lever)

funnily enough the Sram part is the one causing troubles

I still love the Guide though. For me it's the best brake on the market. Raw power is enough with 200mm discs front while modulation and ergonomics are top notch.

I don't like Maguras huge levers or Shimanos Servo Wave on / off like modulation, I don't bother with overpriced Hope stuff or brakes from a looser companies like Hayes or Tektro.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

TwoTone said:


> It's really simple, why do you think Sram dropped the Avid name? Avid was synonymous with horrible brakes.


Because they want the name SRAM to be synonymous with horrible brakes?


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Maxeymum said:


> Fair enough, Mr. Pig. I gotta say though, I'm pretty new to the forum, and am already well aware of your aversion to Avid/SRAM brakes -- I mean I don't know if you think you're doing the world a public service by alerting us over-and-over-and-over again about these brakes, but seriously, and I'm not trying to offend you, don't you think you're getting into beating-a-dead-horse-to-death-territory-here?


SRAM brakes are ****.

I have one set not last more than a month. Sent back for Warranty and they upgraded them. Sold as soon as I got them.

Wife's bike, 2016 Salsa Mukluk. rear brakes is failing. Need to do a warranty replacement already. bike is 2 months old.

My stache 9.6 came with Guides. Rode them one time. Replaced with XT's

For some they work. for others they do not. The problem is the O-rings in the cylinder along with heat. In AZ it's supposed to be 100 degs this weekend already.

No one needs a seasonal set of brakes when my XT's and XTR's have workED without any problems,

When they do work and have been broken in correctly. They feel good and have awesome stopping power. They aren't very reliable, moreso in my area.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Steel Calf said:


> Actually the Guide brake is half "Avid" (the caliper from the Avid Trail) half "Sram" (completely the new lever)
> 
> funnily enough the Sram part is the one causing troubles
> 
> ...


Have you tried Shimano Race levers? No servo wave.


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Anyone else care to join in? :eekster: Please click image for some really nifty animation!


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Maxeymum said:


> Anyone else care to join in? :eekster: Please click image for some really nifty animation!


So you've never seen a CCW thread here, huh? :lol:


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Zowie said:


> So you've never seen a CCW thread here, huh? :lol:


CCW? Sorry, don't get the reference...


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Maxeymum said:


> Anyone else care to join in? :eekster: Please click image for some really nifty animation!


You're missing the point. Yes, I am saying exactly the same thing as I've been saying for years but the problems are not over. Shimano has had leaking callipers but that was years ago, the issue was fixed and it no longer applies so there is no point in mentioning it unless someone pops up with an old effected set of brakes.

Every time SRAM/Avid bring out new brakes the story is that they are fixed now, nothing to worry about, and every time it's not very long before the forum posts start popping up. My new SRAM brakes are stuck. It's a joke. I honestly don't know how a company the size of SRAM can muck products up this badly.

So the point is that it's an ongoing problem. If two or three years pass and no one has any problems with new SRAM brakes then ok, maybe it's safe to give them the benefit of the doubt but as yet it hasn't happened. And until they can prove that their brakes are reliable I think it's only fair to warn people of the trouble they could be buying.

It's not for my benefit. I wouldn't touch SRAM brakes with a ten-foot pole, with you tied to the end of it! ;0) I am genuinely just trying to help fellow bikers avoid grief. I have had rides ruined by friend's brakes seizing on and it's rubbish. If I can help one person avoid that then cool.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Yes Avid / Sram made some mistakes in the past but it's all forgiven and the Guide working now in 2017


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Steel Calf said:


> Yes Avid / Sram made some mistakes in the past but it's all forgiven and the Guide working now in 2017


No, if they are still working in two years? Then we can talk.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> No, if they are still working in two years? Then we can talk.


But they're working fine since I got them swapped last year so nothing to worry.

I think they'll continue going strong (...forever) and if not I'll have them repaired in secret (and open thread for help in other Internet forum) to escape public embarrassment.


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Quick Update: Had both my Guide RS levers replaced with the updated levers under warranty yesterday even though only the front was overheating. I didn't have to pay any labor charges in case anyone is wondering, but as mentioned previously the bike (a 2016 Salsa Bucksaw carbon) was only a few days old when the front lever 'overheated.' I guess the new levers will still be under SRAM's two year warranty so I will give them that long to prove themselves. Or not. I understand some of the pent up frustration and disgust some of you out there have with Avid/SRAM brakes, but I'm new to the brand and am keeping a (cautiously) open mind for now. I will also admit it is an economic decision at this point -- I simply can't justify dropping $200-300 for new brakes when it was a bit of a stretch to buy the bike in the first place and the brakes I DO HAVE will be under warranty for two years, and, as we speak, are functioning perfectly (and quite powerfully I might add). 

If any problems do crop up from this day forward, I will offer full and honest disclosure. I do enjoy seeing a dead horse being beaten. :madman:


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

I wouldn't call this beating a dead horse. Give it a year or so w/o any new problems and it will be.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Maxeymum said:


> the bike (a 2016 Salsa Bucksaw carbon) was only a few days old





Maxeymum said:


> I will also admit it is an economic decision at this point -- I simply can't justify dropping $200-300 for new brakes when it was a bit of a stretch to buy the bike in the first place


cmon that's almost like saying "I just bought a Porsche but cannot afford the fuel". You obviously overstretched your budget and are now stuck with mediocre brakes on a great bike (hey I'm stuck with great brakes on a mediocre bike)

If you buy an Avid/Sram brakes equipped bike always leave enough funds on the table to be ready for a full brake swap (ask Mr. Pig for confirmation)



Maxeymum said:


> I understand some of the pent up frustration and disgust some of you out there have with Avid/SRAM brakes, but I'm new to the brand and am keeping a (cautiously) open mind for now.


I sometimes leave my bike standing outside in the rain just to "give the brakes a lesson"



Maxeymum said:


> If any problems do crop up from this day forward, I will offer full and honest disclosure.


Nooo!! Keep it a secret or Mr. Pig will be all over you! If he just knew what suffering I went through the last two years...


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

I don't understand why people continue to use poor brakes, the older avids we known to have issues, sounds like the new ones aren't much better, so many warranty claims.

Could be a hospital trip having a brake fail at the wrong time... No thanks.


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Well, Mr. Steel Calf, it's pretty obvious you've been traumatized by whatever you went through with your Avid/SRAM brakes, but just because you react one way doesn't mean the rest of us should.

I think your analogies are more than a little overblown, not to mention pretty off base. Seriously? A $100k Porsche you can't buy fuel for? It wasn't so much of a stretch for me to buy the bike in a financial sense, I should clarify and say it was a bit of a stretch to justify it when I already had a pretty high-end bike. As far as I'm concerned, the only reason for me to buy different brakes at this point is by justifying it through some mental gymnastics I don't feel compelled to perform. Could I go buy new brakes if I wanted? Yes. Will I? Not at this point. Please understand this is my decision, not yours, and you shouldn't lose any sleep over it. I do hope you someday recover from your Avid/SRAM trauma and can move on with your life. Have you and Mr. Pig ever considered starting a Avid/SRAM support group? It could do you and maybe a lot of other people a real service. Ha.

Not sure what your statement about leaving the bike out in the rain means, but I can only assume you are unjustifiably punishing the entire bike for the sins of the brakes. Seems very unfair to me.

Oh, and please take my reply in the spirit of good fun it is intended. Rock on, brother.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Well the difference is I'm running Guide RSCs since 2014 and love them while Mr. Pig is not running any Guides but still joining every Sram Guide thread to educate people on how bad they're.

The only major issue with the Guide is the sticky lever syndrome which can be remedied on the fly by cooling down the lever housing (just carry some cold water for you AND the lever...)


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Steel Calf said:


> Well the difference is I'm running Guide RSCs since 2014 and love them while Mr. Pig is not running any Guides but still joining every Sram Guide thread to educate people on how bad they're.


That is true. It is also true that I have never been hit by a train. I did however have a friend who was hit by a train. Are you suggesting that unless I get hit by a train myself, I am not qualified to tell you that it's a bad idea?

Carrying extra water to keep your brakes functioning, that's a good idea though. If you were doing a long ride in hot weather, how much water would it be sensible to carry? And how do you keep the water cold? Maybe ice would be better. You could carry an ice bucket and a strap to hold ice on the lever?


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> Carrying extra water to keep your brakes functioning, that's a good idea though. If you were doing a long ride in hot weather, how much water would it be sensible to carry? And how do you keep the water cold? Maybe ice would be better. You could carry an ice bucket and a strap to hold ice on the lever?


Yes, you'd have to ration your water between yourself and the brakes.
Too little water for you -> dehydration
Too little water for the lever -> sticky lever

Newbies often struggle to find a balance between these two demands, but if you drank too much water you could still piss on the brakes...

Note: The water doesn't have to be ice cold to work (google evaporation chill)

+ the cold water is only meant as a quick fix. I recommend simply white tape as it equally keeps the lever housing cool (and thieves away from a bike that looks broken)

As you can see pointing out the problem is not enough. You've to offer a solution.

I hope your friend wasn't hit by a train because his Avid/Sram brakes failed?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Steel Calf said:


> I hope your friend wasn't hit by a train because his Avid/Sram brakes failed?


No, just an idiot.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Steel Calf said:


> Well the difference is I'm running Guide RSCs since 2014 and love them while Mr. Pig is not running any Guides but still joining every Sram Guide thread to educate people on how bad they're.
> 
> The only major issue with the Guide is the sticky lever syndrome which can be remedied on the fly by cooling down the lever housing (just carry some cold water for you AND the lever...)


LMAO, really. 
SO what is one to do when its over 100 outside? Make a water drip system to keep the brake system cool?

screw that. Brakes need to work 100% of the time. No cool them off when they feel odd. At that point they need to be replaced. Hell my Wife's brake locked up today at a MTB clinic along with 2 other riders who have new bikes with Guide brakes.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

brent701 said:


> Hell my Wife's brake locked up today at a MTB clinic along with 2 other riders who have new bikes with Guide brakes.


As stated many times in the history of mankind, women and engineering do not mix.

And no one knows at that MTB clinic how to cool down a Guide brake? That should be common knowledge by now!


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Steel Calf said:


> As stated many times in the history of mankind, women and engineering do not mix.
> 
> And no one knows at that MTB clinic how to cool down a Guide brake? That should be common knowledge by now!


As I said. Brakes should not need to be cooled down to work. 
Reason I run XT's

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Every human needs to be cooled down to work which makes the Guides human in some sense.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Steel Calf said:


> As stated many times in the history of mankind, women and engineering do not mix.
> 
> And no one knows at that MTB clinic how to cool down a Guide brake? That should be common knowledge by now!


I bet you there are more than a couple women who could have engineered that MC properly. It's obvious whoever they hired couldn't pull it off.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Zowie said:


> I bet you there are more than a couple women who could have engineered that MC properly. It's obvious whoever they hired couldn't pull it off.


Probably a man?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Mr Pig said:


> Probably a man?


Most definitely a man, no woman would be dumb enough to try to develop a brake for Avid that would work.


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## JackieTreehorn8 (Mar 12, 2016)

Count me in as another pledge to not use SRAM brakes. Having your wheel seize/rub in middle of a 50 mile ride (hot day) due to levers not retracting gets to you. Also seems like careless management when the problem is known so long and not fixed.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

JackieTreehorn8 said:


> Count me in as another pledge to not use SRAM brakes. Having your wheel seize/rub in middle of a 50 mile ride (hot day) due to levers not retracting gets to you. Also seems like careless management when the problem is known so long and not fixed.


Hello, Sram Guide lover here.

It's user error. Either put some white tape on the lever housing so it cannot heat up in direct sunlight or use cold water to cool it down. With these measures in place, the brakes should last you for a long time (at least a year, maybe even longer) till they need replacement for sudden failure.


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## rcharrette (Dec 14, 2005)

I've got the Guide RSC levers on my bike. They started sticking and just got progressively worse. I ordered 2 internals repair kits as I did not want to lose my bike for a week or more. The kits arrived and the job was SIMPLE! I hear other levers have a snap ring that's a pain, not on the RSC lever. Took me about 15 minutes per lever.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Positive note. SRAM fixed my wife's Guides while I was out racing Whiskey Off Road this weekend. Dudes were really cool. charged us nothing. Explained the whole reason they problem is even there. 
Brakes work amazing she said. 
Real test is when its over 90. which will be by this weekend if not tomorrow.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Steel Calf said:


> Hello, Sram Guide lover here.
> 
> It's user error. Either put some white tape on the lever housing so it cannot heat up in direct sunlight or use cold water to cool it down. With these measures in place, the brakes should last you for a long time (at least a year, maybe even longer) till they need replacement for sudden failure.


There should never be any measures in place to allow a brake system to work correctly above them working within the factory standards. No cooling down. No running anything over them to get hot. l

In AZ its over 100 already. Putting some tape on them to keep the sun off them isn't going to work.

only two fixes. 
Send them back in to have the pistons replaced, or replace them with a different set, like XT's


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

brent701 said:


> SRAM fixed my wife's Guides
> Explained the whole reason they problem is even there.


please elaborate. What did they say is the "whole reason" ... ?

My bet is a member of the development team is secretly working for Shimano


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

brent701 said:


> In AZ its over 100 already. Putting some tape on them to keep the sun off them isn't going to work.


Yes it does. Use some common sense. A white surface doesn't get as hot as a black one. Just buy some white tape from the pharmacy or electrical tape from a hardware store.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Steel Calf said:


> please elaborate. What did they say is the "whole reason" ... ?
> 
> My bet is a member of the development team is secretly working for Shimano


3rd party makes the pistons. They made the pistons too large and used a old mold for the brakes. They know they piston o-rings well swell a little with heat. but when the pistons are already made too large. You get the problem we all are having now. He had a big ass bag full of pistons.



Steel Calf said:


> Yes it does. Use some common sense. A white surface doesn't get as hot as a black one. Just buy some white tape from the pharmacy or electrical tape from a hardware store.


White, pink, blue colored tape. It's not the point.

Her brakes work ( for now), XT's will be going on and these going away.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

brent701 said:


> 3rd party makes the pistons. They made the pistons too large and used a old mold for the brakes. They know they piston o-rings well swell a little with heat. but when the pistons are already made too large. You get the problem we all are having now. He had a big ass bag full of pistons.
> 
> White, pink, blue colored tape. It's not the point.
> 
> Her brakes work ( for now), XT's will be going on and these going away.


I already got my brakes swapped last year. Good for Sram to know what the problem is, now how about a recall?

And the WHITE!! tape method does work as it's direct sunlight on the black lever housing that is causing heat to build up and thus leading to the issue. What's so hard to understand here? I always carry a little tape with me should the problem ever emerge again on the new brakes.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Steel Calf said:


> I already got my brakes swapped last year. Good for Sram to know what the problem is, now how about a recall?
> 
> And the WHITE!! tape method does work as it's direct sunlight on the black lever housing that is causing heat to build up and thus leading to the issue. What's so hard to understand here? I always carry a little tape with me should the problem ever emerge again on the new brakes.


Nothing hard at all to understand, I also know for a fact that doesn't work here in AZ, If it's 100+ outside, It's over 90 in my garage. The bike can't leave the garage. the brakes will not work. and NO sunlight has touched them. Has nothing to do with sun light. Here in AZ during our summer's it will be over 100 at night. Can't ride, brakes no work. and there is no sun..

If you wanna run tape on your brakes, go for it. Won't fix **** here in AZ

They work, for now. lets see how long.


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## tankhead10 (Dec 6, 2014)

My local bike shop just quoted me $150.00 for replacing the warrantied guide brakes that locked up this weekend (and then cooled down and worked and then heated up and did not again)....and then said they are back ordered and would be ten days to get there.... I laughed on the phone and told I will pick up my bike after work..... and hung up...

$150.00 to change two brake levers.... hahahahahahahahahahhahahahah.
What a joke...


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

tankhead10 said:


> (...)
> $150.00 to change two brake levers.... hahahahahahahahahahhahahahah.
> What a joke...


And you have people insisting that we should support our LBS...


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## tankhead10 (Dec 6, 2014)

Just contacted another bike shop 45 minutes away (where my mom lives) and they said they charge about $20.00 per lever..... I guess I have my answer of who I will "support"

I will be sure to let the first shop know where I will be going and that I don't appreciate the ******** extortion techniques...


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

tankhead10 said:


> Just contacted another bike shop 45 minutes away (where my mom lives) and they said they *charge about $20.00 per lever.*.... I guess I have my answer of who I will "support"
> 
> I will be sure to let the first shop know where I will be going and that I don't appreciate the ******** extortion techniques...





Aglo said:


> And you have people insisting that we should support our LBS...


Like anything else in life, not all LBS are the same.


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

Just wanted to give a quick update on the replacement levers installed on my bike about 10 days ago. They haven't overheated yet. Will provide more updates at a later date.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

brent701 said:


> Nothing hard at all to understand, I also know for a fact that doesn't work here in AZ, If it's 100+ outside, It's over 90 in my garage. The bike can't leave the garage. the brakes will not work. and NO sunlight has touched them. Has nothing to do with sun light. Here in AZ during our summer's it will be over 100 at night. Can't ride, brakes no work. and there is no sun..
> 
> If you wanna run tape on your brakes, go for it. Won't fix **** here in AZ
> 
> They work, for now. lets see how long.


if it's that hot in your area that your brakes are not working how can you even go riding?

I think maybe these Guide brakes are a good indicator to help you determine optimal riding conditions:

brakes not working = too hot outside, danger of dehydration. Riding not recommended. Brakes will lock up for your own safety.

brakes working = good riding conditions

brakes stopped working during ride = brakes/human have overheated. Give water to brakes+human to solve issue.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Steel Calf said:


> if it's that hot in your area that your brakes are not working how can you even go riding?
> 
> I think maybe these Guide brakes are a good indicator to help you determine optimal riding conditions:
> 
> ...


Ya missed the point, 
The guides don't work. ( This whole thread is about guides not working when hot) 
My XT's work just fine, my son's Formula's work just fine. Again, It's the Guides that stop working. I don't need to cool those brakes off. In the years I have raced MX, Sportbikes and now MTB's. I have never had to use anything to cool brakes off like putting water on them to make them work. They either work or they don't. If they don't, you find a brand that does in the conditions you ride in. 
Guides aren't those currently. but like I said, Let's see how long they last with the new pistons.

And guides helping with optimal riding conditions?, Nah. We ride year around, just need to change the times. Either very early to try to stay in the 90's or at night to try to stay in the 90's, anything during the day it's too hot outside. regardless of when though. The Guides have still failed.


----------



## 274898 (Nov 29, 2005)

brent701 said:


> Nothing hard at all to understand, I also know for a fact that doesn't work here in AZ, If it's 100+ outside, It's over 90 in my garage. The bike can't leave the garage. the brakes will not work. and NO sunlight has touched them. Has nothing to do with sun light. Here in AZ during our summer's it will be over 100 at night. Can't ride, brakes no work. and there is no sun..
> 
> If you wanna run tape on your brakes, go for it. Won't fix **** here in AZ
> 
> They work, for now. lets see how long.


SRAM replaced my Guide RSC levers last year. It took three months but they are better. I had to pay a processing fee but then just rebuilt the brakes myself. They are working fine now. It is just the lever piston that is expanding in warm weather making the brakes stick.

SRAM brakes are good but it is all in the bleed. If you bleed them well, they will work well. They are not the easiest to get a good bleed. However, I think I may have some technical strategies to get really good bleed.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

brent701 said:


> Ya missed the point,
> The guides don't work.


...just put some cold water on them. Damn you're stubborn!


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

nvphatty said:


> I can sympathize with your sentiment.


...


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Steel Calf said:


> ...just put some cold water on them. Damn you're stubborn!


At this point. Trying to have a adult conversation with you is pointless. 
No need to be calling anyone names.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

brent701 said:


> At this point. Trying to have a adult conversation with you is pointless. No need to be calling anyone names.


Chill out dude, he's just taking the piss.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> Chill out dude, he's just taking the piss.


I know. 
I just don't see a point to keep trying to spark fire over this crap.

Her brakes got fixed by sram for nothing. 
The problem is known and adds up

They work for now. Temps have dropped the last week back to the 80's. Only a few more weeks till we will know if the fix they say is the fix works or not lol

Till then. We just gonna ride our bikes. 
Lots of racing coming up

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

brent701 said:


> They work for now. Temps have dropped the last week back to the 80's. Only a few more weeks till we will know if the fix they say is the fix works or not lol


How about heating up the brake lever with a hairdryer right now to know for sure? If you honestly concerned take matters into your own hands instead of pinning it on god to send you hot weather.

Pro Tip: There this cooling spray from the pharmacy. They usually use it on soccer players. Works equally well here!


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## tankhead10 (Dec 6, 2014)

So the owner of the bike shop just called me to let me know that the SRAM parts came in and they wanted to know if I changed my mind because SRAM next day aired them (even though they told me they would be 10 days out). I told them that I was going to go to MOJO, (a shop in a near by town that the owner used to work for them back in the 90's-early 2000's) and told him that Scott was going to charge me about $20.00 a side and said goodbye.
Strange 'cause I used to ride with the team on Saturdays and spent some money over the years. But I told him that was just too steep a cost. "Well that is what we charge for a brake bleed," he said.

Shouldn't there be industry standards like auto/motorcycle shop have? Guess not. Oh well.


----------



## zendo (Aug 29, 2015)

Sram replaced my entire guide ultimate lever units for no charge, the LBS was looking to charge me $25 to install and do a brake bleed but I just took the levers and did that myself. So far they have been flawless with the new internals.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

tankhead10 said:


> Shouldn't there be industry standards like auto/motorcycle shop have? Guess not. Oh well.


No because a bike techs would starve on a flat rate system.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

TwoTone said:


> No because a bike techs would starve on a flat rate system.


True

Wife was able to take the bike out for a test ride today. all working good so far. 
High was 109 out on the trail and they still worked.

Maybe this is the fix.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

tankhead10 said:


> But I told him that was just too steep a cost. "Well that is what we charge for a brake bleed," he said.


150$ for a brake bleed?
Maybe they're using human blood, and the mechanic is the poor sucker who's gonna take the plunge.

With that kind of price it would actually be cheaper to buy a new set of Shimano SLX brakes. Industry standard is 20-30€ here in Europe, and that's already quite steep as you can get the pro bleed kit for less.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

brent701 said:


> Maybe this is the fix.


SRAM's new brake slogan right there. I can see it now, big red letters on the side of the boxes...


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## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

Steel Calf said:


> Well the difference is I'm running Guide RSCs since 2014 and love them while Mr. Pig is not running any Guides but still joining every Sram Guide thread to educate people on how bad they're.
> 
> The only major issue with the Guide is the sticky lever syndrome which can be remedied on the fly by cooling down the lever housing (just carry some cold water for you AND the lever...)


No, that didn't work when I was riding my Stache on a hot day. As far as the financials, it really doesn't matter. Anyone can fix defective SRAM brakes for less than $50 all in from nothing if they buy cheap tools and do the labor. I paid $450 to upgrade my fleet with Shimano. My neighbor found Tektro brakes for less than $100. My racing friend warrantied all three of his sets, one set twice.

Thank you to Mr Pig and others. It's not me, it's not just my friends. It's not a bad batch that was filling cardboard boxes at a local shop. I bought a new bike last week. I settled in a price with Shimano brakes already installed. This thread saved me $150.

I told the shop owner that SRAM brakes suck. He said he knows, and that I had no idea what it had cost him. He said he wished he had the resources to rip them off every new MTB before the sale and send them back. I feel for him. The shop is new (two years) and it was the most honest conversation I'd had in decades in an LBS. Typically they just act like it is all normal, or they have never heard of it.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> SRAM's new brake slogan right there. I can see it now, big red letters on the side of the boxes...


lol. They need to add it to the droppers also


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## La Nada (Mar 1, 2017)

Had this very thing happen on my one week old bike last weekend. Got to carry the front tire in my right hand and drag the bike by the back tire in my left hand for 5 miles in the 95 degree desert. Not an awesome day. Lbs is working on the warranty claim as we speak.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

If I was basically living in the desert I'd just move to a place with a more moderate climate to make the Guides feel @home


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## La Nada (Mar 1, 2017)

Steel Calf said:


> If I was basically living in the desert I'd just move to a place with a more moderate climate to make the Guides feel @home


I've been avoiding it, but I think I'm just gonna have to be honest with my significant other and my employer. As much as I value them, I feel like I have to do what's in the best interest of my guides and move. I mean when you have guides your priorities change. It's not all about you anymore.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

No wonder your Guides were working so poorly when you always put yourself first.


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## Johnsonad11 (Sep 7, 2015)

Hey all, loving the commentary here. Good chuckle all the way through. That said, don't move just because of your guides. The truth is, they still won't work. I lived in the farthest north reaches of Michigan (Houghton, MI up in da UP) and still had sticking issues.

That said I would never swap my guides for Shimano - at least not XTs or XTRs. I'd gladly take rebuilding these things yearly over running those brakes - I've ridden a lot of XTs and XTRs, and there is no comparison in modulation to the Guides. Yes they have tons of stopping power, but it's on or off. No, I'll likely be bucking up more money to go with some high end brakes. Need to play on a friend's Hopes and see what I think. But just saying, I'm seeing a lot of "swap over to Shimano" but to me that's a big down grade in feel. Upgrade in reliability no doubt. Someone did mention a Shimano with better modulation though, might have to scroll back through and find the name and check them out.

Just some more things to think about, it's not as easy as just swapping to Shimano because the feel is totally different.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Johnsonad11 said:


> I've ridden a lot of XTs and XTRs, and there is no comparison in modulation to the Guides.


Fair enough. It's a recurring complaint about Shimano vs...just about any other brake but it doesn't bother me. I don't find Shimano bad, just different and I'm so used to them I don't think about it. In fact I like the gentle touch of Shimano brakes. Fingertip control.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Johnsonad11 said:


> Hey all, loving the commentary here. Good chuckle all the way through. That said, don't move just because of your guides. The truth is, they still won't work. I lived in the farthest north reaches of Michigan (Houghton, MI up in da UP) and still had sticking issues.
> 
> That said I would never swap my guides for Shimano - at least not XTs or XTRs. I'd gladly take rebuilding these things yearly over running those brakes - I've ridden a lot of XTs and XTRs, and there is no comparison in modulation to the Guides. Yes they have tons of stopping power, but it's on or off. No, I'll likely be bucking up more money to go with some high end brakes. Need to play on a friend's Hopes and see what I think. But just saying, I'm seeing a lot of "swap over to Shimano" but to me that's a big down grade in feel. Upgrade in reliability no doubt. Someone did mention a Shimano with better modulation though, might have to scroll back through and find the name and check them out.
> 
> Just some more things to think about, it's not as easy as just swapping to Shimano because the feel is totally different.


Have to ask, ever try the Race levers?


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## Johnsonad11 (Sep 7, 2015)

Mr Pig said:


> Fair enough. It's a recurring complaint about Shimano vs...just about any other brake but it doesn't bother me. I don't find Shimano bad, just different and I'm so used to them I don't think about it. In fact I like the gentle touch of Shimano brakes. Fingertip control.


One finger braking is the only way it should be done  wish I could do that on my dirtbike!


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## Johnsonad11 (Sep 7, 2015)

TwoTone said:


> Have to ask, ever try the Race levers?


No I think those were the ones mentioned earlier I need to try - I've only used the XT and XTR (well and SLX) so I'll put the Race in my notes. Definitely looking for a replacement at some point in time so if the Race are cheaper than Hope, it might be a good one!


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Last night I had a dream that @Mr Pig went into my garage to sabotage my beloved Sram Guide brakes. I would report the failure right away in the forums on the next day just to read @Mr Pig response "told you so!"

Put the bike in the bedroom for now.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Steel Calf said:


> Last night I had a dream that Mr Pig went into my garage to sabotage my beloved Sram Guide brakes.


They don't need the help.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Johnsonad11 said:


> No I think those were the ones mentioned earlier I need to try - I've only used the XT and XTR (well and SLX) so I'll put the Race in my notes. Definitely looking for a replacement at some point in time so if the Race are cheaper than Hope, it might be a good one!


Which XTR's? The trails are different than the race. 100% different feel.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Traitor, how dare you poisoning Sram Guide thread with dirty Shimano stuff. Shimano brakes are for cowards!

We gonna fix our Guides now and go riding before it gets real hot outside!


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## Johnsonad11 (Sep 7, 2015)

brent701 said:


> Which XTR's? The trails are different than the race. 100% different feel.


Hm awfully good question. Did some shuttle laps with a friend's bike, so I'm not 100% sure. They look very similar from a quick Google search, and I believe it was the Trails because it looks like the race has a carbon lever? Another friend of ours ended up with one of the carbon levers imbeded in his shin (unfortunate accident) so the friends bike that I did use was aluminum levers - I'd assume he had bought the trail brakes instead of the race, but there's a chance he just swapped the levers over (if that's even possible) I'll have to ask next time we're out.

But I do see some reviews saying the race has much better modulation, so definitely worth checking out.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Steel Calf said:


> Traitor, how dare you poisoning Sram Guide thread with dirty Shimano stuff. Shimano brakes are for cowards!
> 
> We gonna fix our Guides now and go riding before it gets real hot outside!


Too late. It's 105 outside right now


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## Johnsonad11 (Sep 7, 2015)

brent701 said:


> Too late. It's 105 outside right now


Ok I take back what I said, move. Even if it doesn't fix your guides, 105 sounds terrible. It's a nice comfortable 56° here :-D


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Johnsonad11 said:


> Hm awfully good question. Did some shuttle laps with a friend's bike, so I'm not 100% sure. They look very similar from a quick Google search, and I believe it was the Trails because it looks like the race has a carbon lever? Another friend of ours ended up with one of the carbon levers imbeded in his shin (unfortunate accident) so the friends bike that I did use was aluminum levers - I'd assume he had bought the trail brakes instead of the race, but there's a chance he just swapped the levers over (if that's even possible) I'll have to ask next time we're out.
> 
> But I do see some reviews saying the race has much better modulation, so definitely worth checking out.


The race have a tool adjustment for reach and the trail have tool-less adjustment. They look like the XT's.

The XTR trails have the servo wave action like the XT's but the XTR race do not have it. which give it a different feel. I personally hate my XTR race brakes. Do not have the stopping power my XT's do even with using metal pads


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Johnsonad11 said:


> Ok I take back what I said, move. Even if it doesn't fix your guides, 105 sounds terrible. It's a nice comfortable 56° here :-D


lol, As of now they have been working. 
She went riding the other day and my sons Garmin read 109.. We are heading at in about 2 hours to go riding. Shall see if they still work. lol

The Guides feel and work great, when they work. I give them that. Great feel and stopping power Just a toss up if they are going to work or not when it gets hot outside. With Summer here in AZ. It's always hot


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

brent701 said:


> Too late. It's 105 outside right now


oh oh - season is over for you my friend.
No Guides, no bikes.
Better luck in autumn!


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## Johnsonad11 (Sep 7, 2015)

brent701 said:


> lol, As of now they have been working.
> She went riding the other day and my sons Garmin read 109.. We are heading at in about 2 hours to go riding. Shall see if they still work. lol
> 
> The Guides feel and work great, when they work. I give them that. Great feel and stopping power Just a toss up if they are going to work or not when it gets hot outside. With Summer here in AZ. It's always hot


I die when it hits 80°....


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Steel Calf said:


> oh oh - season is over for you my friend.
> No Guides, no bikes.
> Better luck in autumn!


lol, not for me. XT's and XTR's. 
But the race season is over in 2 weeks.. then the longer races start. woohoo


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

brent701 said:


> I personally hate my XTR race brakes.


That's modulation everyone seems to love.

I have no problem with servo wave brakes personally.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Too much Shimano talk here. Why is it there's always Shimano mentioned when brakes from a different brand don't work?

Nevermind. Some admin shall quickly clean the thread before everyone succumbs the temptation and switches over to Shimano. I don't want Sram to go bankrupt!


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Johnsonad11 said:


> Did some shuttle laps with a friend's bike, so I'm not 100% sure. They look very similar from a quick Google search, and I believe it was the Trails because it looks like the race has a carbon lever?


The feel of Shimano brakes is just something you get used to. If they were terrible, I doubt they would be so popular. Coming from another type is bound to feel wrong but once you're used to them it's fine.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> The feel of Shimano brakes is just something you get used to. If they were terrible, I doubt they would be so popular. Coming from another type is bound to feel wrong but once you're used to them it's fine.


Shimano brakes are like cigarettes.
They also taste like **** in the beginning but after some time addiction kicks in and you start to like them.

The Sram Guide is like a cigarette that tastes great from the start but kills you off with cancer soon after.


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## tankhead10 (Dec 6, 2014)

Well i talked to SRAM. I asked them if the second shop contacted them about the warrantied brakes. They were very helpful and apologized about the problem. I told them about the $150.00 charge from the one shop and Jason told me that since it has been warrantied through one shop he will have to contact that shop to verify that they did not install and sent back. He called them and had some words about the $150.00 charge but would not divulge the convo specifics.... which I appreciated.
and then I called the second shop to tell them to call Jason at ext. xxxx and they would send the brakes out pronto....
He said he would call that day... that was two days ago. I called SRAM to see if he called. They said NO. Wonderful. Next step is to have them ship them to me. Got a trip planned soon...


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## NRP (Sep 8, 2015)

I'm a little confused as to the actual "fix" for the sticking brake issue - is it a replacement piston/o-rings or a replacement lever? 

It's hard to tell based on the conversation from the last several pages.


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## DM-SC (Jan 12, 2004)

When SRAM sends a warranty replacement, it's the complete lever.

Some have bypassed the warranty process and just purchased/installed the newer version of the lever rebuild kit.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## NRP (Sep 8, 2015)

When you say it's the "complete lever", do you mean the entire master cylinder + lever assembly that mounts on the handlebars?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

DM-SC said:


> When SRAM sends a warranty replacement, it's the complete lever.


When Shimano warranted my leaking brakes they sent out full brakes, bled, hoses the correct length, ready to fit. That's complete.


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## DM-SC (Jan 12, 2004)

NRP said:


> When you say it's the "complete lever", do you mean the entire master cylinder + lever assembly that mounts on the handlebars?


Yes.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> When Shimano warranted my leaking brakes they sent out full brakes, bled, hoses the correct length, ready to fit. That's complete.


Hey Shimano lover,

you're not running any Sram brakes so what are you still doing in this thread apart from not missing any opportunity to spread glee in others people's faces who have issues with their Sram brakes.

Good to know that Shimano send you a complete brake kit but what is this information good for in a Sram Guide thread?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Steel Calf said:


> Good to know that Shimano send you a complete brake kit but what is this information good for in a Sram Guide thread?


I thought people wanted to know the solution for the problem of SRAM brakes?


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Goddamn it pig, the thread says "...replaced under warranty"

What's so hard to understand ?

If people were looking for an alternative product to replace their Sram Guide brakes they wouldn't come here in the first place.

You can open a thread and advise people about Shimano brakes there but coming here and pointing fingers to anyone who's got a problem saying "I told you so...!" is just immature


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Steel Calf said:


> What's so hard to understand ?


That I have the freedom to say what I like? :0)


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> That I have the freedom to say what I like? :0)


Look this is silly. You don't even own Sram Guide brakes!

Just open a thread with a meaningful title called "Shimano brakes are better than Sram brakes" and lay down all your arguments there.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Steel Calf said:


> Just open a thread with a meaningful title called "Shimano brakes are better than Sram brakes" and lay down all your arguments there.


Who gave you a badge and a gun?


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> Who gave you a badge and a gun?


I'm starting to believe that your name and avatar picture have some deeper meaning behind it


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Steel Calf said:


> I'm starting to believe that your name and avatar picture have some deeper meaning behind it


I am starting to not care what you beleive :0)


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

So lately I'm having an issue with my Guide RS brakes and I'm not sure if it is the SAME issue in this thread. It didn't appear to have anything to do with heat. I basically put my bike away in the basement for the winter and when I pulled it out this spring it has had this issue:

The brakes have no feel or modulation. They almost feel "gritty". The wheels easily lock up. The levers don't seem to return when I let go. I mean, the pads release, but the levers don't really "go out".

ac


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

Hard to say, as many of us have had similar, but different, experiences.
Something's obviously wrong with yours, though, and it does sound consistent with the piston sticking. When mine "locked up", they would release enough to ride the bike, meaning they were either completely on or off, with no in between. Fairly similar to what yours have started doing.
I'd take that as a blessing in disguise, as opposed to having them lock up on a long ride, and not delay getting them warrantied or repaired.

btw, my brakes had been on the bike for 14 months, and were fine through a whole summer in Alabama before displaying this issue at <80F this spring, so it's not just about outside temp.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

OwenM said:


> ..so it's not just about outside temp.


My mate's Avid/SRAM brakes have been terrible and we live in Scotland, where you don't get temperature!


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

avc8130 said:


> So lately I'm having an issue with my Guide RS brakes and I'm not sure if it is the SAME issue in this thread. It didn't appear to have anything to do with heat. I basically put my bike away in the basement for the winter and when I pulled it out this spring it has had this issue:
> 
> The brakes have no feel or modulation. They almost feel "gritty". The wheels easily lock up. The levers don't seem to return when I let go. I mean, the pads release, but the levers don't really "go out".
> 
> ac


This fits the description. I've been a bit confused looking at the "locked up" bit of this problem, because the only time I've ever seen that in heat it was because of water in the brake fluid, and a flush and bleed typically cured it. But a year or so ago my front lever did exactly what you're describing. When it was hot, it had no "return" - it would move just far enough to let the wheel spin, touch them and they were on. Felt like Shimano brakes at that point, little or no modulation. When cooler, the lever moved the right amount, but it was a little sluggish about it. Not visibly so, it was something you more had to feel. You could compare it to the rear brake, which worked fine, and feel the difference. The front lever was warrantied, no questions asked. Recently, the rear lever started to exhibit that sluggish feel. I took the bike to the shop straight away, and they called SRAM and the rear lever has now been warrantied as well. It's worth mentioning, these brakes are part of the original Guide R run, so they're working on being 3 years old, well past when SRAM was obligated to do anything about this under warranty.


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

OwenM said:


> Hard to say, as many of us have had similar, but different, experiences.
> Something's obviously wrong with yours, though, and it does sound consistent with the piston sticking. When mine "locked up", they would release enough to ride the bike, meaning they were either completely on or off, with no in between. Fairly similar to what yours have started doing.
> I'd take that as a blessing in disguise, as opposed to having them lock up on a long ride, and not delay getting them warrantied or repaired.
> 
> btw, my brakes had been on the bike for 14 months, and were fine through a whole summer in Alabama before displaying this issue at <80F this spring, so it's not just about outside temp.


That's what threw me off. They were fine until they sat un-used over winter. They woke up from hibernation like this.

Do replacement piston kits fix it? I don't really have an LBS, so I just assume fix it myself.

Sram Brake Lever Internals Parts Kit for GUIDE RS Qty 1 | eBay

ac


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Add my friend to the list with failed Guides. 6 month old bike, weather just started getting warm here, lever stuck and brake was dragging so bad he had to remove the wheel, pry the pads apart, and finish the ride without touching the front brake.

His old bike has SLX brakes, so I swapped the front brake to SLX for him. We ought to go ahead and swap the rear as well just to prevent a repeat. I expect the Guides will go into the trash bin.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

JACKL said:


> Add my friend to the list with failed Guides...I expect the Guides will go into the trash bin.


Yeah, the ones with the faulty piston are all going to fail. SRAM will replace them for him for free, though. 
I'll pay shipping plus a little extra if you want to send them to me, instead of throwing them out. 
They're much better brakes than the SLX, just need a little plastic part that wasn't to spec and a bleed to work like new.



avc8130 said:


> Do replacement piston kits fix it? I don't really have an LBS, so I just assume fix it myself.
> 
> Sram Brake Lever Internals Parts Kit for GUIDE RS Qty 1 | eBay
> 
> ac


Replacing the pistons fixed mine. You just need the piston and snapring(in case you damage the stock one removing it), though, so you can use the cheaper kit for the Guide R/DB5 that doesn't include a swinglink. 
Here, this is $12.57/ea shipped. Got mine $9/ea+$4 shipping from Niagara Cycles through Amazon, but they're showing out of stock. 
SRAM Guide R, Avid DB5 Lever Internals Parts Kit Qty 1 | 365 Cycles

Read the comments here, too:
http://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/sram-guide-lever-rebuild-1043768.html
The first one was a PITA for me getting my pliers filed to fit,and lining everything up repeatedly(maybe standing there looking at it like "duh" a few times), but after doing it, the second one was a breeze.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> My mate's Avid/SRAM brakes have been terrible


liar


----------



## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

avc8130 said:


> So lately I'm having an issue with my Guide RS brakes
> 
> I basically put my bike away in the basement for the winter and when I pulled it out this spring it has had this issue


that's why I always pull the brake levers at least once a day in winter time to make sure the brakes don't fall apart from boredom.


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

OwenM said:


> Yeah, the ones with the faulty piston are all going to fail. SRAM will replace them for him for free, though.
> I'll pay shipping plus a little extra if you want to send them to me, instead of throwing them out.
> They're much better brakes than the SLX, just need a little plastic part that wasn't to spec and a bleed to work like new.
> 
> ...


I was wondering about that. The internals kit comes with so many extra parts it just seems silly.

For $25 for both sets I can't be bothered waiting for warranty and trying to convince some self-righteous LBS to actually HELP me.

ac


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

OwenM said:


> Yeah, the ones with the faulty piston are all going to fail. SRAM will replace them for him for free, though.
> I'll pay shipping plus a little extra if you want to send them to me, instead of throwing them out.
> They're much better brakes than the SLX, just need a little plastic part that wasn't to spec and a bleed to work like new.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'll PM you if that is the case, might be a few weeks before I know. I mentioned that he could warranty them and he seemed to have zero interest in that. He works a lot and just wants the bike to work when he gets a chance to ride. I saw the procedure to fix them, and even though I do my own work and some DIY stuff, I'm just not in the mood to mess with that right now.

Unfortunately the SLX is squeaking a bit. Either it doesn't like the SRAM rotor, or sitting for 6 months allowed some fluid seepage. It was dead quiet on his old bike.

After riding his bike and testing both brakes, I do like the feel of the Guides better. I have XTs and don't like the initial hit. Zees are progressive; didn't know that back in 2014 when I bought XTs.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

JACKL said:


> Thanks, I'll PM you if that is the case, might be a few weeks before I know. I mentioned that he could warranty them and he seemed to have zero interest in that. He works a lot and just wants the bike to work when he gets a chance to ride. I saw the procedure to fix them, and even though I do my own work and some DIY stuff, I'm just not in the mood to mess with that right now.


I can understand that. I work a lot, too, but equate the cost of my toys to overtime hours. $20-30 in parts and an hour or so spent messing with them to revive a set of $300 retail brakes is a pretty good investment.
If they're RS or higher, I'd love to have them for spares or to go on a new bike I might get next year. You may want to fix and keep them yourself, though, if your mood changes!


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## impatient (Jan 30, 2004)

Here's my dilemma. model RSC's, bought new June 2015 a la carte, not part of bike build. Has temp-related issue as described throughout this thread. That bike shop says they no longer work with SRAM, so won't involve themselves with warranty claim. But 2 yr warranty about to expire. Took to different local shop in March. Backordered, but was given 5/5/17 delivery date for internals kit, but no mention of warranty help. Now ship date has slipped to July (4 f-in months). I leave for big summer trip (with bike I hope) in less than 3 weeks. Is there a complaint hotline at SRAM anyone can point me to? I probably need to buy something, but IMHO, SRAM owes me a lever. 

2nd question: would a SRAM brake with S4 caliper necessarily have the upgraded internal piston, in case I can buy a complete brake at decent price.

Just in case someone wants to suggest Shimano, SLX-XTR has inferior fit given rear frame configuration. Possibly Deore would be better, but still inferior. SRAM Guide fits perfectly. Issue is with front brake. But not sure of ergonomics with SRAM shifter (yes, I have front derailleur) or mixing front Shimano with rear SRAM brake.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

impatient said:


> Here's my dilemma. model RSC's, bought new June 2015 a la carte, not part of bike build. Has temp-related issue as described throughout this thread. That bike shop says they no longer work with SRAM, so won't involve themselves with warranty claim. But 2 yr warranty about to expire. Took to different local shop in March. Backordered, but was given 5/5/17 delivery date for internals kit, but no mention of warranty help. Now ship date has slipped to July (4 f-in months). I leave for big summer trip (with bike I hope) in less than 3 weeks. Is there a complaint hotline at SRAM anyone can point me to? I probably need to buy something, but IMHO, SRAM owes me a lever.
> 
> 2nd question: would a SRAM brake with S4 caliper necessarily have the upgraded internal piston, in case I can buy a complete brake at decent price.
> 
> Just in case someone wants to suggest Shimano, SLX-XTR has inferior fit given rear frame configuration. Possibly Deore would be better, but still inferior. SRAM Guide fits perfectly. Issue is with front brake. But not sure of ergonomics with SRAM shifter (yes, I have front derailleur) or mixing front Shimano with rear SRAM brake.


You are getting screwed by shops. You need to find a shop that will simply call SRAM and submit a warranty claim for the lever based on its behavior, and SRAM will cover it. Again, it's a simple matter of the shop taking care of a customer and taking care of business. Unfortunately, to the best of knowledge, SRAM does not deal with customers directly, their support runs to a shop level only to control volume and contact points. Let me be clear: Any shop worth spending money at will contact SRAM for you and this lever would be warrantied. My last lever warranty arrived at the shop in 9 days. Not 9 business days. Nine days from when I took my bike to the shop for the mechanic to look at.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

impatient said:


> Here's my dilemma. model RSC's, bought new June 2015 a la carte, not part of bike build. Has temp-related issue as described throughout this thread. That bike shop says they no longer work with SRAM, so won't involve themselves with warranty claim. But 2 yr warranty about to expire. Took to different local shop in March. Backordered, but was given 5/5/17 delivery date for internals kit, but no mention of warranty help. Now ship date has slipped to July (4 f-in months). I leave for big summer trip (with bike I hope) in less than 3 weeks. Is there a complaint hotline at SRAM anyone can point me to? I probably need to buy something, but IMHO, SRAM owes me a lever.
> 
> 2nd question: would a SRAM brake with S4 caliper necessarily have the upgraded internal piston, in case I can buy a complete brake at decent price.
> 
> Just in case someone wants to suggest Shimano, SLX-XTR has inferior fit given rear frame configuration. Possibly Deore would be better, but still inferior. SRAM Guide fits perfectly. Issue is with front brake. But not sure of ergonomics with SRAM shifter (yes, I have front derailleur) or mixing front Shimano with rear SRAM brake.


I have to ask- what frame and what makes it an inferior fit? It either fits or it doesn't. If it does and works, what's the problem?


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## impatient (Jan 30, 2004)

Turner Dw link. Adjustable banjo, on "inside" of caliper is the key. XT etc have banjo on "outside." Deore, on inside but points in awkward direction, with no banjo. It's a cable routing issue. Plus I have 2 SRAM shifters so new brackets and/matchmakers needed on the handlebar, if switching to Shimano. I'm willing to give SRAM another chance if I can get an RSC lever, or the internals to rebuild in time. Of course, free (under warranty) sure beats $150-200 for new front brake, plus cable shortening, plus bleed. 

Can I repeat my 2nd question: if I find some take-offs at a local shop, or wherever, and they have the S4 calipers, could I assume they have the upgraded master cylinder piston? Or did SRAM upgrade to S4 before they upgraded the piston?

In other words, how can I know I am getting a lever with latest piston?


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## socalntv (Jan 26, 2010)

I switched to Shimano XT. Not looking back. The Guide RS warranty replacements were fine, but I wanted an all Shimano cockpit.

That being said, the entire SRAM organization customer service model sucks. I was trying to track down the right service kit for a Rockshox fork. SRAM uses dealer networks for their customer service and tech support, so I had to deal with a bit of LBS b.s. "oh, you don't want to rebuild that yourself, we'll do it for $150 crap" until I spoke with Worldwide Cyclery who gave me the right kit. 

If you can't do Shimano, what about Hayes, Magura, Formula? I have no experience with them, I am in Shimano's camp now.


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## Klainmeister (Apr 14, 2012)

Hope and Magura have both been excellent in terms of CS for me. Accidentally put Mineral Oil in some Hopes (wrong syringes in the garage) and they immediately explained the procedure and sent us the correct seals. Magura has been super fast and friendly when I was trying to get a reach and bleed right on a new set.

BTW, running MT6 on a XC bike and MT Trails on two enduro bikes right now. Yeah, never going back to Guides. Night and day difference.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

impatient said:


> Turner Dw link. Adjustable banjo, on "inside" of caliper is the key. XT etc have banjo on "outside." Deore, on inside but points in awkward direction, with no banjo. It's a cable routing issue. Plus I have 2 SRAM shifters so new brackets and/matchmakers needed on the handlebar, if switching to Shimano. I'm willing to give SRAM another chance if I can get an RSC lever, or the internals to rebuild in time. Of course, free (under warranty) sure beats $150-200 for new front brake, plus cable shortening, plus bleed.
> 
> Can I repeat my 2nd question: if I find some take-offs at a local shop, or wherever, and they have the S4 calipers, could I assume they have the upgraded master cylinder piston? Or did SRAM upgrade to S4 before they upgraded the piston?
> 
> In other words, how can I know I am getting a lever with latest piston?


I can't answer how you know you're getting a lever with the latest piston. I can tell you that even the bad pistons will potentially last as much as 2 years.


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## maleonardphi (May 19, 2006)

I just dealt with this same issue. Fortunately my local shop (Big Swingin' Cycles in San Francisco) has excellent customer service and are all around great people. They were immediately aware of the problem and had spare sets of internals at the shop. I did the work myself, and my only pointers are to get a small set of snap ring pliers with long tips. I bought a pair at Lowes, but they were too fat. Fortunately my dad had an old set I was able to grind down and make work. Second tip, if the piston is stuck in the lever body, stick it in the freezer for 10 minutes or so and the piston will shrink and pop right out. To get the snap ring back in, I put the lever in a vice, and with the snap ring pliers in one hand and a long skinny flathead screwdriver in the other, I pushed down on the snap ring/washer/piston/spring and used the screwdriver to make sure the snap ring was fully seated before releasing the snap ring pliers.


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## mmc (Feb 23, 2016)

Maybe slightly OT but hopefully this is helpful to some folks... I just did this rebuild on a pair of Guide RSC levers. I built my bike from parts and I didn't want to deal with the SRAM dealer network issues, etc. so I ordered the internals kits on eBay. They were about $30. They shipped from China but they got here (Northern CA) in less than a week.









The RSCs have a caliper adjustment wheel I believe _instead of_ the snap ring discussed elsewhere in this thread. I didn't have to deal with any snap rings. The caliper adjustment on my early gen (late 2015 maybe?) RSCs was problematic. It was a plastic part that seized up and I wound up stripping the threads trying to free it. It's been completely redesigned in these rebuild kits and replaced with an aluminum part. Old one is on top, new one on the bottom:









I can personally vouch for the "put it in the freezer for a while" method of freeing the piston. Worked great. I put it in a little plastic baggie (one of the ones that came with the kit) and I'm glad I did because it puked a little bit of DOT 5.1 fluid when it popped free.









Here are the problematic pistons (old one is on top). They _look_ quite similar at first glance. Subjectively, the spring on the new one feels stiffer, but that could be due to the old one having been used for a while.









I put a micrometer on the each of the three rings of the old and redesigned pistons. The new ones were measurably smaller.









Here are the measurements. These may be good target diameters for folks who are looking to mod their existing pistons instead of ordering new ones.

First ring (closest to spring):
Old: 9.48mm
New: 9.36mm

Second ring:
Old: 9.44mm
New: 9.34mm

Third ring (closest to plunger):
Old: 9.42mm
New: 9.32mm

It seems pretty likely that this'll resolve my stuck piston issues but I guess time will tell. In any case, hopefully this info is helpful to some RSC owners who aren't looking to jump ship just yet


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## Hawseman (Jun 1, 2007)

Informative, thanks. August '15 purchased bike with Guide RSC.

My RSC's are on way to SRAM for both caliper adjustment wheel (rear) and sticky lever pistons in warm weather (front and rear). Approximately 3-4 week turnaround I'm told. Did not have this piston issue until this spring.

I would have rebuilt myself, if I didn't have an old set of Juicy 7's to get me through one of the better riding months in the Northeast U.S.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

Oh, yuck. Hope my "new pistons" are actually the newest pistons. That center section was solid on mine(edit: my original, faulty pistons) and that relieved part on your new one has a groove around the middle. Not 100%, but pretty sure my replacements did not...


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

Had one of these yesterday. One call to Sram and a new lever is on the way to the shop. Not sure why people are rebuilding these if Sram will just replace the lever.


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

BIke N Gear said:


> Had one of these yesterday. One call to Sram and a new lever is on the way to the shop. Not sure why people are rebuilding these if Sram will just replace the lever.


Because you HAVE to use a shop. Some of us don't have one local worth a crap.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

avc8130 said:


> Because you HAVE to use a shop. Some of us don't have one local worth a crap.


Another reason to give Shimano your money over Sram.


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## xblitzkriegx (Jul 29, 2016)

This happened to me this morning, here's what happened and how I fixed it. I'm spending 2 weeks in CO. My sram DB5s worked great for a year up until I got here. Twice when the temp went over 80 degrees the brakes locked up solid. On the start of the second ride, I could not physically move the rear tire with my bare hand.

So here I am in CO with a bike with frozen brakes. Thanks SRAM. What to do?...

Saturday morning at 9am I start calling shops. 4 out of 4 shops acknowledged the sticking piston issue. 1 shop told me he's warrantied 3 in 2 days. All 4 shops offered to warranty them but I can't do that since I dont live here. I'll be damned if I'm staying in Colorado springs and staring at a useless bike for a week. 

I bought XT brakes at 9:34am and the shop installed them on the spot. I was out of the shop in an hour and out on the trails at 11:10am. The shop shortened the hoses and bled the brakes, then they burnished them in. They even had 2 ppl at once working on my bike while I watched leogang footage on their tv. Kinda felt like a pro with 2 ppl working on my bike lol. I still have the old brakes, I'll rma them when I get home and just have a spare set of brakes. They were great until they werent.

Thank you ProCycling in Colorado springs for taking care of my sram brake issue by turning them into Shimano XTs instead. 

TL;DR: sram brakes failed, found local shop and replaced them with XTs, because F sram.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

xblitzkriegx said:


> I still have the old brakes...


Put them on eBay and claw back some money. Someone will buy them, you have no idea how many stupid people there are in the world!

The thing about Shimano brakes is that you don't really need spare ones. Unless you crash them. My levers are scratched and I have a chunk out of the reservoir cover from tumbles but the brakes still work. I do still have a couple of spare brakes but I've never used them.


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

I dropped my bike off yesterday at an LBS for SRAM warranty replacement of both my front and rear Guide RS. Hopefully the "one week" is accurate...


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## mfiles (Sep 19, 2007)

It took 10 days to get my Salsa Mukluk w/Sram Guide R brakes warranty replaced at local bike shop where I purchased it. No charges.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

It looks like the Guide RS and Guide R rebuild kits are on backorder. Anyone know of a source? I'm half tempted to just get a set of Deores and be done with these terrible things.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

car_nut said:


> It looks like the Guide RS and Guide R rebuild kits are on backorder. Anyone know of a source? I'm half tempted to just get a set of Deores and be done with these terrible things.


Find a large event near you that SRAM will be at. 
Had the wife's done at Whiskey off road. 
So far so good. been tested in as hot has 108degs and they still return. I would personally still just order the Deores or some SLX/XT's though


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

brent701 said:


> Find a large event near you that SRAM will be at.
> Had the wife's done at Whiskey off road.
> So far so good. been tested in as hot has 108degs and they still return. I would personally still just order the Deores or some SLX/XT's though


No real big events coming to my neighborhood soon. Even if there was, I'm not spending my time at such an event dealing with SRAM warranty. Yeah, I think I'll bin these things. Just annoyed since I was skeptical of these brakes from the beginning but finally caved after all the great reviews and bought a higher spec'd bike just to get these over Deores. Now they're useless, can't source parts, the pads are all rusted and binding, and I'm ready to dump $120 to undo my choice of spending more money to get them in the first place. My relationship with SRAM is running very similar to Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Why not just have the levers warrantied? You don't need to take the time or effort to rebuild them yourself or find someplace SRAM will be. Take it to a shop that knows what's up. My shop looked at my caliper to get the serial number, let me take the bike, got the lever in, and let me pick it up and change it out myself, then I took them the old parts, and they sent it back. Look at it this way. At least if you get the levers warrantied, you can sell some working brakes instead of just throwing them away.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

Spending yet more money to get brakes that may or may not perform as well, and have their own set of potential issues(search for Hope, Shimano, Magura, Formula, all of them) hardly strikes me as a "good solution". A lot of us bought these specific brakes for good reason. The fact that they have this problem is unfortunate and disappointing, but whichever route we go, getting it straightened out is far and away the cheapest and simplest for most of us-and that's what I'd encourage people to do. 
Complaining about it doesn't fix anything, but I do feel for anybody trying to get parts right now(or having the problem at all) or that has a crappy LBS, 'cause I already know how much it sucks having to screw with these things, and just wanting them to work the way they're supposed to.


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## bbqmike (Jan 5, 2016)

Wow, glad I found this thread, been having issues with these for over 2 years, I was just getting cheap db5s off chain when they were cheap to fix it. I sanded 2 levers and both work very good now. I'm going to get the offical parts for the set of TLMs I got, it would be nice to have drop ins that work. Even if I have to overhaul them once a year, its not that hard, and the matchmaker puts my levers where I like them, combining the sram/shimano always annoys me..


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

car_nut said:


> My relationship with SRAM is running very similar to Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football.


No one company is perfect. I think the quality and value of SRAM/RockShox forks is good and a lot of the other stuff they market is fine too. Just taking over Avid was a mistake in my opinion.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> No one company is perfect. I think the quality and value of SRAM/RockShox forks is good and a lot of the other stuff they market is fine too. Just taking over Avid was a mistake in my opinion.


Yeah, as a whole I think they're pretty good. I've just had a string of bad luck with them starting with mis-machined Reba lowers up to this.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

car_nut said:


> Yeah, as a whole I think they're pretty good. I've just had a string of bad luck with them starting with mis-machined Reba lowers up to this.


I bought my son a new bike a few years ago that had an XC32 fork with squint brake posts. I had to file the faces in order to align the calliper properly. Someone told me, I can't remember who, that one of the reason Avid/SRAM brakes were popular with manufacturers was that the dome washers they use makes it easy to align the brakes on frames and forks that aren't straight. I don't know if that's true or not.

Anyway, I still think Rock Shox forks are good value and generally good quality. The SRAM transmission on my full-sus is still working ok too and the rear dérailleur took a whack off a rock today and lived so happy days :0)


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## Ftchmup (Jul 6, 2015)

Well it happened to me,85 and bike in the sun. Brakes quit running. Put it in the shade and they come right back to life.My LBS rocks!!!! Quick pics, let me keep the bike 68 today, they run perfect. He is gonna call when the new ones show and install NC to me! Shouldn't happen, but SRAM and my LBS are handling it right.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Ftchmup said:


> Well it happened to me,85 and bike in the sun. Brakes quit running. Put it in the shade and they come right back to life.My LBS rocks!!!! Quick pics, let me keep the bike 68 today, they run perfect. He is gonna call when the new ones show and install NC to me! Shouldn't happen, but SRAM and my LBS are handling it right.


I would disagree Sram is handling it right. It will take someone breaking their neck or worse for Sram to handle it right. Not everyone that owns these brakes are on forums.  There should be a recall.

Anything less is bean counters playing odds with people's health. No different than GM and the ignition fiasco.

The way Sram is handling this puts them in a worse light than Specialized in my book. I for one will never buy one of their products after this.


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## Jim_D. (May 5, 2011)

*DB Lever*



dusadus said:


> For those having issues with Guide brake levers not returning, my LBS got SRAM to warranty them and also upgraded them (RS to RSC). Anecdotally they had 3 warranty repairs including mine that week. So far they feel great. Not certain if it's a redesign or a recall, but if you are having similar issues take it to your LBS. My brakes started to act up ~9 months since I bought them. Bleeding and brake pad replacement and piston cleaning did nothing.


I'm having similar issues with my DB levers. Noticed it last Saturday. they are really slow to return. Kind of worries me while descending. I'm planning on taking my bike in for a tune up in the next couple of weeks and I'll ask the shop to see if they are aware of such issues.


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## bbqmike (Jan 5, 2016)

chiito said:


> I'm having similar issues with my DB levers. Noticed it last Saturday. they are really slow to return. Kind of worries me while descending. I'm planning on taking my bike in for a tune up in the next couple of weeks and I'll ask the shop to see if they are aware of such issues.


They all have a similar design and problem. I have a few sets of DB5s around, but I haven't verified if sram has updated the part for that or not, it is a different piston setup than a RSC, no sure if the RS is the same.


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## Crooked Cop (May 28, 2014)

If you bought RSC's after Nov. 2016 direct from factory, you're good to go. Rode yesterday in 90+ degree heat with no problems at all.


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## xblitzkriegx (Jul 29, 2016)

its sucks too cause i enjoyed my DB5s. i chose a different brand not because they failed, but because people are getting defective brakes in return and multiple times to boot. why on earth would i waste my time on replacing a second or third time, especially when sram wont pay for their installation. on top of all of it, everyone in the industry seems to be aware of it but its not acknowledged by sram. thats low.

i picked shimano XTs mainly cause they were in stock and are a good reliable brake. there were problems at first but shimano openly acknowledged that they had an early production run issue. 

if magura had been in stock, or trickstuff, or w/e...it may have been a diff brake on my bike but i went with what was available and they happened to not try to hide defective parts.


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## puckdaddy (May 28, 2009)

Ive read this entire thread, am Im still wondering this. The only rebuild kits I have found have been on Ebay. The picture of the piston in the kit doesnt look correct. Will this work, and how do I know if the kit is post malfunction?


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Me and a buddy both recently bought Motobecane Fantom Plus's with SRAM Guide R's from Bikes Direct both started have the aforementioned problems at about the same time which happened to coincide with last week's heat wave. Nearly locked-up wheels = no fun. I had this problem once before with Avid Elixers and bleeding the brakes cured it.

Not this time with the Guide brakes; we bled both our bike's brakes and the problem came right back. Obviously something sinister afoot so a search brings me to this thread. BTW I figured out the cooling "off the brakes" trick on my own this time around; the previous time only my rear brake was affected so I disabled it to get back to my truck. Risky business...

These are new bikes; how in the f*ck is SRAM getting away with this??? Where's the CPSC when needed?

I think it's a combination of faults; perhaps contaminated brake fluid from the factory, perhaps plastic that swells over time when in contact with brakes fluid, crappy manufacturing QC (injection molds tend to wear larger over time) and just poor design in the first place. (easy for dirt to accumulate in the outer master cylinder bore; mine was quite dirty)


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## xblitzkriegx (Jul 29, 2016)

The plastic piston is too large for the bore. Nothing more.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

xblitzkriegx said:


> The plastic piston is too large for the bore. Nothing more.


Or the aluminum bore is too small for the plastic piston. Most likely the problem with my Guide R's.

Took a couple of other Avid master cylinders apart and measured the components.

Quite a spread in micrometer terms. Couple of thou'.

Junk.


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## 6thElement (Jul 17, 2006)

The RSC kit is suddenly out of stock everywhere, I had it in my basket at two different places this morning! :/


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## bbqmike (Jan 5, 2016)

I've sanded down a few pistons now that I found this thread, and getting the seals off without damaging has been the only annoying part. I need batteries for my digital caliper, so I have been sanding them until I can drop them in the lever and they move freely again, this might be a bit more than needed, but it seems like the seals really center the piston, we just need to make sure its not contacting the bore. My 2016 level tlm still needed this, I want to order a new set to have, but want to make sure I can an updated version.

The new level pin to hold the lever on is also a PITA to center and re-press into place, the guide style with the rocker lines up easier, I assume the change was to save a few grams.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

I love how SRAM fixed this last spring, but yet the guides that came on my son's new bike are having the issue. I wish he like the levers on Maguras so I could throw the guides in the trash where they belong. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

bbqmike said:


> I assume the change was to save a few grams.


To save a few something..


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

I got my sets back, RS and RSC's, and even though they've been serviced at SRAM command, there ain't no way they're going back on any of my mountain bikes. I might put them back on the fatbikes that only see snow and non-summer use, so at least there will be frozen water around to get them to work again WHEN they crap the bed again...which they will.


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## Crooked Cop (May 28, 2014)

Just came back from riding in 95 degree heat in Ashland Oregon. No problems with my black RSC's locking up which were bought straight from the factory Nov. 2016. Have to also mention that the modulation on these brakes is incredible even with a 200mm rotor up front.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

It's a combination of the piston increasing in size after long-term exposure to brake fluid and temperature. Mine were perfectly fine in hot temps when new. Now they're locked up solid at room temp.


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## Crooked Cop (May 28, 2014)

You must have go the of style pistons.


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

car_nut said:


> It's a combination of the piston increasing in size after long-term exposure to brake fluid and temperature. Mine were perfectly fine in hot temps when new. Now they're locked up solid at room temp.


Pretty much what I think was happening with mine. They worked great all last year, the best MTB brakes I've ever experienced. I put the bike in the basement for the winter and when I took it out in the spring both brakes felt "dead". I don't know how else to describe it. The levers felt like squeezing wood. The brakes still "worked" but they had no feel and would basically just lock up.

I don't think it's JUST heat that causes the issue. I do think that plastic piston isn't liking long term exposure to brake fluids.

ac


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## mitch. (Jun 21, 2017)

This happened to me on a set of guide ultimates. I bought the bike second-hand. LBS was able to warranty and get a new set of levers installed no questions asked.


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

I got my bike back after a month. LBS said SRAM is really dragging ass getting replacement parts to him, so he claims he put a set of "take-off" Guide R that they had at the shop on it to get me riding. The bike originally came with Guide RS components which have some fancy linkage that's supposed to reduce take-up in the lever before the pads actuate. I'm not really clear if he plans to let me ride these until SRAM wakes up, or if he just plans on keeping the "better" brakes when they come in.

I guess time will tell, but at least I'm back to riding?

ac


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

I don't think we can help you there, avc; best to clarify with your LBS, eh?


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## phidauex (Apr 17, 2013)

The DB5s on my 2016 Specialized Fuse (bought in March of 2017) are back to the shop for the 2nd time. The first time one of the levers locked up because the reach adjust screw broke off inside and jammed. This time is more like the issues described here - hot day, pulled the bike out of the garage, rear lever went from feeling a bit odd to being fully jammed over a few minutes.

Limped it to the shop, and they are replacing both levers under warranty. Not terribly impressed yet, since they implied that SRAM was replacing my brakes as a favor (rather than an obligation) and that somehow lack of maintenance was to blame (even though I had only owned the bike for 4 months, most of which I was out of town and not riding it). I'll see how they do, and hopefully the new levers being shipped now solve the problem.


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## Oxidizer (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm also having major heat problems with my SRAM Guide RS brakes. My Guide RS's were purchased in August 2015 with my new 2016 model Stumpjumper. I never had problems with these brakes before because I usually ride in the early morning or late afternoon in Santa Cruz (weather is rarely over 75F during those times). I recently started noticing the sticky leaver feel on the front brake when I rode during the day ~80-85F. Then I rode in Jacksonville and Ashland Oregon last week >90F. The brakes were terrible in the heat! In the morning the brakes were okay but by 11AM (>90F), the front was completely locked and the rear was sticking. Both brakes would completely lock up in direct sunlight and when transporting the bike on the car rack in 95F heat. I had to ice the reservoirs down to get the levers to move again. I really hope my LBS can do a warrantee repair. If not, I'm ditching the Guides for XT's.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

Bought a lightly used bike w/ Guide R's on board.

The rear left brake is working a treat...

The right front is working, but on closer inspection - there's something funky going on!?

One set of pistons are stuck in the central position. The other side/pistons are moving in/out as they should.

After reading many anecdotal accounts of Guide brakes locking up... I don't want to take an OTB trip to A&E!

Could my lbs remedy the issue?

Or, should I just save my skin/time etc & get a new front brake?

Sent from my kltedv using Tapatalk


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

1) wrong thread

2) better go to your LBS, you sound like someone with two left hands


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

targnik said:


> I don't want to take an OTB trip to A&E!


Not very likely. Imagine riding with the brakes on at all times, that's what happens.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

Mr Pig said:


> Not very likely. Imagine riding with the brakes on at all times, that's what happens.


Contradict yourself much?

Ignored/blocked the other troll 

Sent from my kltedv using Tapatalk


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## eicca (May 9, 2014)

Poor SRAM, tried so hard to make good brakes and erase the nightmares of the Avid days, and look. We get Guides in our shops ALL THE TIME with sticking levers.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Prediction: Guide brakes will be to SRAM what airbags are to Takata.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Moe Ped said:


> Prediction: Guide brakes will be to SRAM what airbags are to Takata.


I doubt it, Sram would have to step up and do the right thing and recall them. Right now they are just sitting back playing stupid and waiting for people to have a problem,

Reactive instead of proactive- sign of a shitty company to me.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

TwoTone said:


> I doubt it, Sram would have to step up and do the right thing and recall them. Right now they are just sitting back playing stupid and waiting for people to have a problem,
> 
> Reactive instead of proactive- sign of a shitty company to me.


I mean that the airbag problem took Takata into bankruptcy; if the CPSC gets involved and makes SRAM recall every hydraulic brake (including Avid) they ever made it could be a financial disaster for them. From my perspective the Guide brake problem is a QC problem; I know some Avids are bad too. "When did this start?" is the million-dollar question.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

eicca said:


> Poor SRAM, tried so hard to make good brakes and erase the nightmares of the Avid days, and look. We get Guides in our shops ALL THE TIME with sticking levers.


Says a crackandfail rider LOL


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

eicca said:


> Poor SRAM, tried so hard to make good brakes and erase the nightmares of the Avid days, and look. We get Guides in our shops ALL THE TIME with sticking levers.


agreed. When I got my new bike with Sram Guides 2014 the mechanic called me stupid for keeping them but I trusted Sram to make a clean cut and abandon the Avid moniker. One year later my brake got stuck during holiday...

That being said the exchanged Guides run flawlessly since then and are still my favorite brakes...


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Question is, when Sram + Brakes = Avid + Brakes what name to they go with then? Maybe Rockshox brakes?


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Just call them "AVD"

looser companies likes TRP usually have a 3 letter brand name, their employees probably can't remember a longer one


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## eicca (May 9, 2014)

Rick Draper said:


> Says a crackandfail rider LOL


Ok, now let's see you back up your point.


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## phidauex (Apr 17, 2013)

phidauex said:


> The DB5s on my 2016 Specialized Fuse (bought in March of 2017) are back to the shop for the 2nd time. The first time one of the levers locked up because the reach adjust screw broke off inside and jammed. This time is more like the issues described here - hot day, pulled the bike out of the garage, rear lever went from feeling a bit odd to being fully jammed over a few minutes.
> 
> Limped it to the shop, and they are replacing both levers under warranty. Not terribly impressed yet, since they implied that SRAM was replacing my brakes as a favor (rather than an obligation) and that somehow lack of maintenance was to blame (even though I had only owned the bike for 4 months, most of which I was out of town and not riding it). I'll see how they do, and hopefully the new levers being shipped now solve the problem.


Update to my situation here - the shop replaced the brakes with more DB5s. I pushed for another brake, but they wouldn't give me anything else unless I straight up paid for an "upgrade".

New brakes work fine, so far one really hot day riding without issues. I was told that the problem was in the master cylinder bore, and that it was being bored too tight at the previous manufacturer, and that the problem is now resolved across the board. Hopefully that is true! I'll keep riding in the meantime - aside from reliability, I like the DB5 modulation and feel, and there seems to be plenty of power.


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## Oxidizer (Oct 27, 2015)

phidauex said:


> Update to my situation here - the shop replaced the brakes with more DB5s. I pushed for another brake, but they wouldn't give me anything else unless I straight up paid for an "upgrade".
> 
> New brakes work fine, so far one really hot day riding without issues. I was told that the problem was in the master cylinder bore, and that it was being bored too tight at the previous manufacturer, and that the problem is now resolved across the board. Hopefully that is true! I'll keep riding in the meantime - aside from reliability, I like the DB5 modulation and feel, and there seems to be plenty of power.


It's good to know your new brakes worked in some hot weather. I'm waiting to hear back from my LBS about my warranty replacement.


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## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

phidauex said:


> Update to my situation here - the shop replaced the brakes with more DB5s. I pushed for another brake, but they wouldn't give me anything else unless I straight up paid for an "upgrade".
> 
> New brakes work fine, so far one really hot day riding without issues. I was told that the problem was in the master cylinder bore, and that it was being bored too tight at the previous manufacturer, and that the problem is now resolved across the board. Hopefully that is true! I'll keep riding in the meantime - aside from reliability, I like the DB5 modulation and feel, and there seems to be plenty of power.


It's a common theme around my locale to blame the customer for everything and pretend like any warranty of a defective part is a gift. I wonder how much of these experiences are really SRAM and how many are LBS BS. The things are defective, the warranty issue should be known and instant at this point.


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## 6foot4 (Jul 9, 2017)

I just purchased a brand new 2018 Hightower LT bike with SRAM Guide Brakes on them...bike arrives a few days ago but isn't "ready" because the SRAM Guide Brakes are getting sent back already on warranty. LBS claims they have had to do this on multiple bikes over just the past month alone. 

WOW. 

Shoulda got the bike with Shimano components.


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## apuking (Mar 3, 2015)

SRAM BRAKES / GUIDE & LEVEL SLOW LEVER RETURN 
We are aware that some Guide and Level brakes have not achieved the durability levels SRAM and our customers expect. We designed Guide and Level brakes as best-in-class products that should function flawlessly and feel smooth every time you ride them. Anything less than this is unacceptable. 
There are reports that some brakes can develop a sluggish lever feel over time. The rate of this performance degradation varies based on usage and is increased by heat and humidity. We completed a re-engineering of the master piston and main seal to eliminate the possibility of interference. These design changes began production on July 3, 2017. And we are continually improving our design and manufacturing quality systems to deliver the best product possible. 
If you feel that your properly installed and serviced SRAM brakes are performing poorly, we ask that you please contact your dealer to arrange an evaluation with their local SRAM service center, so that we can get you the appropriate replacement parts and service.
The entire SRAM family is passionate about riding bikes, and we know that you value your riding time as much as we value ours. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this issue might cause you. All of us at SRAM are dedicated to doing whatever it takes to get your SRAM brakes feeling and working perfectly. 
We are continually improving our design and manufacturing quality systems to deliver the best product possible. 
Thank you for being a SRAM rider. 

Ron Ritzler
Vice President of product - components 

SRAM.COM


























.




1000 W Fulton Market 4th Floor, Chicago, IL 60607 USA
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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

apuking said:


> SRAM BRAKES / GUIDE & LEVEL SLOW LEVER RETURN
> We are aware that some Guide and Level brakes have not achieved the durability levels SRAM and our customers expect. We designed Guide and Level brakes as best-in-class products that should function flawlessly and feel smooth every time you ride them. Anything less than this is unacceptable.
> There are reports that some brakes can develop a sluggish lever feel over time. The rate of this performance degradation varies based on usage and is increased by heat and humidity. We completed a re-engineering of the master piston and main seal to eliminate the possibility of interference. These design changes began production on July 3, 2017. And we are continually improving our design and manufacturing quality systems to deliver the best product possible.
> If you feel that your properly installed and serviced SRAM brakes are performing poorly, we ask that you please contact your dealer to arrange an evaluation with their local SRAM service center, so that we can get you the appropriate replacement parts and service.
> ...


The design change began July 3, 2017??!! This issue has been known for at least 2 years! Way to get right on it! not

Sounds like maybe a lawyer got involved and warned of a class-action suit or something to me...


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## Oxidizer (Oct 27, 2015)

My LBS confirmed that Sram will do a warranty replacement of my Guide RS's. I hope the replacements will be from the new batch. Glad to see Sram is finally stepping up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Oxidizer said:


> My LBS confirmed that Sram will do a warranty replacement of my Guide RS's. I hope the replacements will be from the new batch. Glad to see Sram is finally stepping up. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Funny how standards have dropped to the point that allowing people to ride with defective brakes that could literally kill them, leave them paralyzed etc.. is stepping up.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Oxidizer said:


> My LBS confirmed that Sram will do a warranty replacement of my Guide RS's. I hope the replacements will be from the new batch. Glad to see Sram is finally stepping up.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you'd read the whole thread you'd realize this isn't new or an isolated case.


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## Oxidizer (Oct 27, 2015)

Zowie said:


> If you'd read the whole thread you'd realize this isn't new or an isolated case.


I know this. Just passing along my experience and giving props to my LBS for their help.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Oxidizer said:


> I know this. Just passing along my experience and giving props to my LBS for their help.


Fair enough. Glad it worked out for you.


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## jumphish (Aug 16, 2017)

Picked up a new bike on a closeout deal (2015 model) that had been sitting in a box for almost 2 years. This listing said it was supposed to show up with some old avids, but it shipped with DB5's. Even at room temperature with zero wear/use the levers had zero rebound even after a bleed. This kind of confirms that the issue also occurs just by having the pistons sit in DOT5.1 juice for long enough.

On the support side, my LBS called in the warranty for me and SRAM isn't just replacing the lever internals, instead the are replacing the entire set,, but since the DB5's are discontinued they are sending me a newer model as well. Not sure which model yet, but I am assuming they will be the equivalent Level's.

The real question is whether or not I will get something from before or after those 7/3/2017 production changes..

Kind of a bummer that I am writing this post instead of riding a bike, but kind of hard to complain about going from Avid Elixer 3's to DB5's to Level's without paying and I'm pretty happy with the SRAM warranty and their customer support.


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## valenjimeno (Oct 23, 2006)

apuking said:


> SRAM BRAKES / GUIDE & LEVEL SLOW LEVER RETURN
> We are aware that some Guide and Level brakes have not achieved the durability levels SRAM and our customers expect. We designed Guide and Level brakes as best-in-class products that should function flawlessly and feel smooth every time you ride them. Anything less than this is unacceptable.
> There are reports that some brakes can develop a sluggish lever feel over time. The rate of this performance degradation varies based on usage and is increased by heat and humidity. We completed a re-engineering of the master piston and main seal to eliminate the possibility of interference. These design changes began production on July 3, 2017. And we are continually improving our design and manufacturing quality systems to deliver the best product possible.
> If you feel that your properly installed and serviced SRAM brakes are performing poorly, we ask that you please contact your dealer to arrange an evaluation with their local SRAM service center, so that we can get you the appropriate replacement parts and service.
> ...


Could you please tell me the link to the original statement? It would help me with YT to get the brakes service under warranty.

Thanks


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## apuking (Mar 3, 2015)

It was just an E-Mail that a colleague was showing me. He works in a bike shop.
He told me that every bike dealer who deals with SRAM got this E-Mail


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## lucky73 (Jun 14, 2007)

SRAM is garbage. Had to replace 4 pairs of brand new 2017 SRAM Level Ultimates with XTs. Complete fail and no one should spec this garbage on their builds - the worst part is SRAM knowingly ships out unsafe gear - I do love my gold eagle stuff though. SRAM is rotten when it comes to brakes.


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## valenjimeno (Oct 23, 2006)

apuking said:


> It was just an E-Mail that a colleague was showing me. He works in a bike shop.
> He told me that every bike dealer who deals with SRAM got this E-Mail


Thanks a lot. YT has respond and I'm sending the brake to be service under warranty.


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## someoldfart (Mar 14, 2013)

I had to send my RSC brakes back as they had a wandering bite point and slow lever return. Got a new set yesterday and put them on. We will see if they are any better. I had not sold the XT brakes these replaced so I had brakes to use for the two weeks it took for replacement. The XT felt stronger but have that ever changing bite point. I did a big descent on Friday on the new Sproat alpine trail here in Whistler. I think the total descent was around 10 km. I hated how the XT brakes pumped up and returned then didn't then did. Consistently inconsistent. That is why I got the Guide brakes in the first place. One more chance.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

someoldfart said:


> I hated how the XT brakes pumped up and returned then didn't then did. Consistently inconsistent.


I think people must use their brakes differently and expect different things from them. I understand what people dislike about XT/Deore brakes but it doesn't bother me. The levers are loose and rattly, compared to Hope etc anyway, and you've got that free play before anything happens but in use I don't even notice it.

I never grab the brakes. Even when you need to brake hard they come on in slow-motion and force on the lever is increased until you get to the level of braking you want. Where the bite point is, I have no idea, or if it's different from the time before. With suitable technique you get the braking you want and they are utterly reliable so I'm happy. I've used Shimano brakes for a long time though so I can see how it might be hard to adapt if you're used to better modulating brakes.


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## someoldfart (Mar 14, 2013)

I expect my brake levers to be the same distance from the grip as they were at the end the ride the day before. I don't expect the brakes levers to need a reach or pad contact adjustment every ride.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

someoldfart said:


> I expect my brake levers to be the same distance from the grip as they were at the end the ride the day before. I don't expect the brakes levers to need a reach or pad contact adjustment every ride.


Is that what you experienced with your XT brakes? If so that odd. I've never known that on mine. I never touch them. Once they're solidly bled you never need to do anything else. The pads on Shimano brakes reset every time the lever is released, or at least they should.


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## someoldfart (Mar 14, 2013)

Mr Pig said:


> Is that what you experienced with your XT brakes? If so that odd. I've never known that on mine. I never touch them. Once they're solidly bled you never need to do anything else. The pads on Shimano brakes reset every time the lever is released, or at least they should.


Yes. A previous pair didn't do it to the same extent nor did the XTR on another bike. My wife's are fine too. The discs on my cross bike are XT calipers and the DI2 levers and they are consistent. I have heard of a number of people with similar complaints about XT A
and XTR brakes.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

someoldfart said:


> I have heard of a number of people with similar complaints about XT and XTR brakes.


Wonder what the cause is? I know Shimano had problems with the 8000-series brakes, is it that? They sorted it out but there must be loads of those iffy ones still in circulation.


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## someoldfart (Mar 14, 2013)

No the older 785. Well into their third season, probably over 400 rides on them mostly on steep Whistler, Squamish and North Vancouver trails. It may be age related which was why I had retired them. Just finished a short ride on the replacement Guide brakes. So far so good. Time will tell.


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## gate (Jan 27, 2015)

It's weird how this devolves into "Shimano vs SRAM" - I'm always suspicious of anyone's judgment when they have extreme brand loyalty. How can you judge any product when you go into it with expectation of success or failure? My first set of hydros were Avid Elixirs and they seemed great until I rode XT 785 which had much better power and reliability. I've had a couple of sets of flawless Shimano XT 785 since then, but then had a set of XTR 9020 that had the terrible pump up problem. Warrantied them (yes Shimano accepted them for warranty for this problem). Replacements were no better. Switched to XT 8000 and pump up was still there. Mid 2016 I would go into my several LBSs and pull Shimano levers and most of them would pump up. Despite Shimano warrantying brakes for this problem and it being a safety issue (yes I've read reports of people crashing because of the pump up problem), I don't believe they never issued a statement about it like SRAM did. What's weird is that this varying bite point doesn't seem to bother some people. A new bike in 2016 came with Guide Ultimates and I was lucky enough to not have the piston failure despite lots of time in 100 degree temps. I like the feel of the Guides (yes, a personal preference) and wanted to switch my other bike from the faulty XTs but waited until this summer when I was confident SRAM had things sorted. Switched one bike to Guides and the other to Codes. No problems. Anyways, I'm just judging each brake model independently. Each company has hits and misses. I respect the public statement that SRAM made whereas Shimano really gave my LBS the runaround when we were working on the warranty.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

gate said:


> It's weird how this devolves into "Shimano vs SRAM" - I'm always suspicious of anyone's judgment when they have extreme brand loyalty.


I don't think it's weird at all as are the dominant manufacturers, not just of brakes but of bike components generally, and are typically competing in the same market areas.

I fully agree that each has hits misses and issues. To an extent they are victims of their own success. I think they have both managed to grow to a size where dealing with recall/fault issues of the type we're talking about here is almost impossible. The supply chain has grown beyond a level they can fully control and the service network to reach all buyers simply does not exist.

The will on their part to fund such support is lacking and buyers don't help when they fail to hold them to account. It's like getting bad food in a restaurant and not complaining, all you do is encourage their complacency. To a large extent, we get the products we deserve.


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

Is it even POSSIBLE to contact SRAM? I'm not 100% happy with how my LBS has handled my warranty process. They took my RS's and put R's on...claiming they took them from an in-house bike because SRAM was being non-responsive. I actually don't like the R's compared to my old RS's and I'm not sure what to do now. I think the LBS feels like they "helped me out", but I feel like I got gypped down to a lower spec product. 

ac


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

You can, but they just tell you to call LBS. Swap the brakes back and go elsewhere.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

avc8130 said:


> I think the LBS feels like they "helped me out", but I feel like I got gypped down to a lower spec product.
> ac


agreed. Time to stand up for your rights as a consumer:


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## Oxidizer (Oct 27, 2015)

avc8130 said:


> Is it even POSSIBLE to contact SRAM? I'm not 100% happy with how my LBS has handled my warranty process. They took my RS's and put R's on...claiming they took them from an in-house bike because SRAM was being non-responsive. I actually don't like the R's compared to my old RS's and I'm not sure what to do now. I think the LBS feels like they "helped me out", but I feel like I got gypped down to a lower spec product.
> 
> ac


Sorry to hear about your situation. My LBS was really accommodating and was able to get the parts from SRAM to do the brake lever replacement on my RS's. It took a long time, 2-3 weeks. I think you should just go back to your LBS and tell them how you feel about the R's (just like you said in your post) that you're bummed that you didn't get the RS's fixed under the SRAM warranty. Maybe ask to talk with the owner instead of the mechanic. No need to take up arms or anything like that. Good luck.


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## handsomehwang (Jun 22, 2015)

If they only started revising it in production brakes starting July 3rd, how am I supposed to tell if I get one that it won't have that problem. Kind of scummy SRAM and makes me want to stay away.


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## Oxidizer (Oct 27, 2015)

handsomehwang said:


> If they only started revising it in production brakes starting July 3rd, how am I supposed to tell if I get one that it won't have that problem. Kind of scummy SRAM and makes me want to stay away.


That's going to be a big problem and why SRAM should do a recall on Guides. My LBS mechanic said that the problem doesn't really manifest itself until 1-2 years down the road, which is true in my case. You could bring in your bike to your LBS and have them check your caliper serial numbers. They should be able to tell if your brakes qualify for the "fix".


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## handsomehwang (Jun 22, 2015)

Oxidizer said:


> That's going to be a big problem and why SRAM should do a recall on Guides. My LBS mechanic said that the problem doesn't really manifest itself until 1-2 years down the road, which is true in my case. You could bring in your bike to your LBS and have them check your caliper serial numbers. They should be able to tell if your brakes qualify for the "fix".


I have some Guide RS's that are starting to exhibit it front brake>rear brake. Basically the lever doesn't go back much further than the contact point but it hasn't seized up yet. I'm thinking of getting some Hopes and getting rid of the Guides even though I do like them when they work.


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

Dealers are getting boxes of updated internals. 3 of my LBSs have enough to go around. One of them even had a crew of SRAM techs spend a day swapping levers on the whole store's inventory. They had bikes with Guides on the floor next to a window with sunlight and the brake that was in the sun would lock up, lol.
I ripped off all my SRAMs the last few days and went brand new XTs. Much prefer the Shimano 'experience' - from maintenance to performance. YMMV?


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## Oxidizer (Oct 27, 2015)

handsomehwang said:


> I have some Guide RS's that are starting to exhibit it front brake>rear brake. Basically the lever doesn't go back much further than the contact point but it hasn't seized up yet. I'm thinking of getting some Hopes and getting rid of the Guides even though I do like them when they work.


You should try to stick it out. It should shouldn't cost you anything but a couple days without the bike. FWIW, I am really happy with how my "fixed" Guides (RS) work. I thought they were pretty good to begin with (minus the heat-induced stickiness). However, after the "fix", braking is SOOOO much better now and no heat-induced lever stickiness. The levers are super smooth.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

handsomehwang said:


> If they only started revising it in production brakes starting July 3rd, how am I supposed to tell if I get one that it won't have that problem. Kind of scummy SRAM and makes me want to stay away.


To be fair, most other big manufacturers would do exactly the same thing.


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## spartan_msu (May 8, 2008)

Does anyone know for certain that SRAM only revised the pistons for this "fix"? Is the reason they are replacing the levers due to the time required/ difficulty to repair the pistons? I have a pair that I bought used, and I feel bad asking my LBS to do another replacement request. But if they also changed something other than the piston, I would obviously want to get the whole lever replaced.


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## DerrickT (Jun 10, 2004)

So what do the new pistons look like? I have four Guides sitting around because all levers have seized. I had to take a 2mm allen key to "punch" out the pistons.


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## Maxeymum (Mar 2, 2017)

DerrickT said:


> So what do the new pistons look like? I have four Guides sitting around because all levers have seized. I had to take a 2mm allen key to "punch" out the pistons.


I think there are pictures of new vs. old somewhere in this thread.


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## someoldfart (Mar 14, 2013)

So I go ride today and levers both go within a half a centimetre from the grip. The previous ride was two days ago and I did adjust the bite point a bit that morning as the brakes felt a bit off. I adjusted this morning and I got them to where I like them but I am at the end of the bite point adjust on the rear lever. I am back to where I was with the previous pair that were replaced under warranty. I am sure I had a good bleed. I had no air coming out at all and I followed the instructions properly. I could see maybe a bad bleed on one but not both brakes. Plus the previous pair were bled numerous times too. I'm going to town shortly to see what other brakes are available.


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## handsomehwang (Jun 22, 2015)

someoldfart said:


> So I go ride today and levers both go within a half a centimetre from the grip. The previous ride was two days ago and I did adjust the bite point a bit that morning as the brakes felt a bit off. I adjusted this morning and I got them to where I like them but I am at the end of the bite point adjust on the rear lever. I am back to where I was with the previous pair that were replaced under warranty. I am sure I had a good bleed. I had no air coming out at all and I followed the instructions properly. I could see maybe a bad bleed on one but not both brakes. Plus the previous pair were bled numerous times too. I'm going to town shortly to see what other brakes are available.


Did you replace it before July by chance? Cause that's the 'official' fix. The way they have handled this, no one is willingly going to try to buy them anymore at this rate


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## someoldfart (Mar 14, 2013)

handsomehwang said:


> Did you replace it before July by chance? Cause that's the 'official' fix. The way they have handled this, no one is willingly going to try to buy them anymore at this rate


They have been on the bike for two weeks. I sent the old pair, which were a few months old, back near the beginning of August.


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## handsomehwang (Jun 22, 2015)

someoldfart said:


> They have been on the bike for two weeks. I sent the old pair, which were a few months old, back near the beginning of August.


That really sucks. That's what I'm scared of. Selling them I have no idea how much I can get too. I might return them to bike nashbar since they have a satisfaction guaranteed.


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## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

My Guide RS were installed Sept 2016 and I they felt sticky and I was never happy and wish I went XT. I was off my bike from 2-17 to 6-17 for surgery. Late April my front brake locked up sitting in my garage heat, so I had my LBS replace the levers under warranty in May/June. They were replaced before the so called official 7-3 fix and they are night and day different. The levers have the updated metal clip surrounding the adjuster, so I'm not sure if they are the new batch or not. The feel is smooth, the lever has a quick spring back and they function how a good brake is supposed to work. I have about 8 rides since they were replaced, it's been 95+ in my garage for the past month and the function hasn't changed a bit. Do any of the levers you guys are having issues with have the metal clip aroung the adjuster knob?


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## sn1ck (Apr 15, 2016)

Update here from Canada, I had the same issue with my guide R's being useless after being in the hot sun for a day. Was able to warranty them through my lbs but instead of sending them away my LBS just updated the internals with the repair kit and billed the internals/bleed etc to Sram.

So anyone who is having an issue with their LBS charging for labour they should be able to bill all labour costs to their distributor.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

sn1ck said:


> Update here from Canada, I had the same issue with my guide R's being useless after being in the hot sun for a day. Was able to warranty them through my lbs but instead of sending them away my LBS just updated the internals with the repair kit and billed the internals/bleed etc to Sram.
> 
> So anyone who is having an issue with their LBS charging for labour they should be able to bill all labour costs to their distributor.


Warranty regulations might be different in the USA; this how my continuing saga with Guide brakes reads:



> Subject: Guide R brakes on Motobecane Fantoms
> Sirs,
> Within the last year I purchased 2 Motobecane Fantom Plus bikes with the defective Guide R brakes. We cannot ride the bikes on a warm sunny day without the brakes locking up.
> 
> ...





> Subject: Re: Guide R brakes on Motobecane Fantoms
> 
> I'm sorry to hear that there's a problem with your brakes. I'll be glad to help you with this.
> 
> ...





> Subject: RE: Guide R brakes on Motobecane Fantoms
> Hi Larry,
> Yes my local shop will do this for $45 a brake. (Flat rate for a brake bleed necessary because the warrantee replacements are shipped dry) That works out to $180 for the 2 bikes. Will you reimburse me these fees?
> 
> ...





> Hello again,
> I am sorry but since Sram makes the brakes, they make the rules and are responsible for the warranty on there products. Motobecanes warranty unfortunately does not cover labor or shipping charges.
> Best regards,
> Larry @ Bikes Direct


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Moe Ped said:


> Warranty regulations might be different in the USA; this how my continuing saga with Guide brakes reads:


I'm on good terms with my LBS and I've actually had them get the warranty levers in and swap/bleed them myself. Also, SRAM has, on other occasions, sent them rotors (that they can sell) to comp them for the mechanic's time, resulting in no charges to me for lever swaps. Maybe go talk to the shops again?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Call Sram or find another shop. You're contacting the wrong person. Bikes Direct isn't going to do anything and honestly has no obligation to. They buy parts and put them on a bike, those parts come with the manufacturer's warranty.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

But SRAM will only deal with the shop or dealer, per their policy, which really sucks for us, as customers.
I have a hard time believing people that say they can't contact SRAM, though. They're never been more than a phone call away for me. I talked to their warranty/tech people this past spring when I replaced my pistons, and again today. Have a different piston issue than before, and am getting replacement levers through the dealer they were originally purchased from this time. When I had problems before, jensonusa, where I bought the brakes, was "remodeling our warranty dept office" or something like that(if timing is everything, I got nothin'!). My sorry LBS took the brakes, and sat on them, saying they were "waiting to hear back from SRAM", who it turns out they never even contacted. I went back and got those brakes, and replaced the pistons myself.
Now 7-8 months later, there's apparently fluid getting past a seal on my rear brake's lever, presumably at the piston. One of the guys at SRAM talked me through a host of possibilities, most of which I'd already confirmed were not the problem. He even went and consulted whoever else, and called me back. Since I still didn't have the most recent pistons in my lever, I finally said screw it, I'll just warranty them. Thankfully, Jenson's done remodeling 

So both of my problems with these brakes have been with one brake lever that could and would have been replaced already if I'd been more patient, and SRAM's tech support has gone above and beyond in each instance. The brakes' performance has also been flawless for the 22 of 23 months they were working properly.
It's that other month, and the lack of a warranty process exclusive of a dealer that's been really frustrating, and will likely have me shopping elsewhere in the future. Figure I've suffered enough at this point! 
Hopefully it'll be a few years before I need more brakes, and it's a shame SRAM's policies have made this such a love/hate relationship...


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

OwenM said:


> But SRAM will only deal with the shop or dealer, per their policy, which really sucks for us, as customers.
> 
> it's a shame SRAM's policies have made this such a love/hate relationship...


However, this is part of what allows SRAM to be so responsive, unlike Shimano, who will "deal" (which means say piss off to) any Tom, Dick, or Harry who calls. Imagine the difference in the volume of contacts and contact points if they allowed everyone to call them directly. Lets face it, it's a win some lose some policy with a company that's willing to go above and beyond. If you have an outstanding LBS, it's win win. If you're LBS sucks, it's a pain, I get it. This is one reason I totally support my LBS - they basically rock. It's never taken more than a week for a warranty issue to be resolved through them.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

OwenM said:


> But SRAM will only deal with the shop or dealer, per their policy, which really sucks for us, as customers.





Cotharyus said:


> However, this is part of what allows SRAM to be so responsive...


What makes them so responsive is their unwillingness to respond to you?


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Zowie said:


> What makes them so responsive is their unwillingness to respond to you?


I think you've missed the point. Lets evaluate this differently. Assume you've made a part that everyone either has or wants on their bike. Just think about your local area. Will it be easier for you to keep up with contacts about questions, orders, returns, replacements, and service if you accept contacts from every individual rider in your area, or if you just accept contacts from the bike shops in your area? It's really not a hard concept. You can probably keep up with all the phone calls from the shops yourself. You'd probably need a secretary to keep up with calls from every rider. It's about scale.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Not sure how Shimano pisses people that call them up. The few times I've called- nothing but great service. I bought a 2009 Felt Compulsion off Ebay.
When it arrived the front hub was toast. Called Shimano, shipped the wheel to them and they sent me a new one.

All without having to deal with an LBS hoping they were on top of it.


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

Pretty sure a $650M/yr, 3,000 employee company can affor a few phone/email support folks.
Just sayin’. SRAM is a juggernaut.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

Don't know where the stuff about not being able to call them comes from.
It IS a line intended for dealers, but the number is listed on their site where anyone can see it. They do seem a bit rushed, and are very direct, pointed in their questions, and my impression is they want to be on to the next call ASAP. I've little doubt using that number as the crybaby hotline won't get you far, but they didn't leave me hanging when there wasn't an immediately obvious solution to the problem with my brakes, seemed determined to cover all possibilities, and called me back within minutes after saying they would do so. No complaints here about their tech support; I think it's great.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

TwoTone said:


> Not sure how Shimano pisses people that call them up. The few times I've called- nothing but great service. I bought a 2009 Felt Compulsion off Ebay.
> When it arrived the front hub was toast. Called Shimano, shipped the wheel to them and they sent me a new one.
> 
> All without having to deal with an LBS hoping they were on top of it.


I'm not saying it happens to everyone, but will say that from the perspective of shops, every single one I know would rather deal with SRAM's warranty/service department than Shimano's. It's universal (and pay attention to this part) IN MY EXPERIENCE that shops get fast turn around and appropriate responses from SRAM, while they get much less prompt and predictable service from Shimano. You might say it's the opposite of their reputation for brakes.....


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

Stuck early 2016 era RSC levers. I need to replace the seal on one of the pistons which got torn.
Do I want the:
a) Lever overhaul kit or the [pn# 11.5018.005.005] 
b) 2nd Gen lever overhaul kit [pn# 11.5018.005.010] ?


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

I'd say the 11.5018.005.005 is the correct one since you're having a 2016 Guide but I'd better double check that because I'd be worried about buying myself a "sticky lever kit"

the question is what is the actual difference between a 2015-2017 A1 and a 2017 onwards B1 Guide? Does it rever to new internals that can equally be fitted on the 1st Gen Guise or is there something else?


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

Steel Calf said:


> I'd say the 11.5018.005.005 is the correct one since you're having a 2016 Guide but I'd better double check that because I'd be worried about buying myself a "sticky lever kit"
> 
> the question is what is the actual difference between a 2015-2017 A1 and a 2017 onwards B1 Guide? Does it rever to new internals that can equally be fitted on the 1st Gen Guise or is there something else?


Exactly my thoughts. Don't want to intentionally buy a sticky kit. On the other hand, why would they still be selling the bad parts? (But of course can you really apply logic to these things)


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

bme107 said:


> Stuck early 2016 era RSC levers. I need to replace the seal on one of the pistons which got torn.
> Do I want the:
> a) Lever overhaul kit or the [pn# 11.5018.005.005]
> b) 2nd Gen lever overhaul kit [pn# 11.5018.005.010] ?


You want 11.5018.005.010, this is the gen2 kit that won't bind up from being too big. Works in all variants.


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

Thanks much!


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

Guys, I'm seeing the new pistons/lever parts kits at online dealers now.
Make sure you get "generation 2". Per a SRAM tech guy, the seals on the piston have been upgraded, as well as the bore diameter reduced. Apparently they could "roll over", as I think he put it, causing a loss of pressure at the lever. What a coincidence, as that is consistent with my current issue.
As I've now been lied to repeatedly by Jenson's warranty guy, and can't get service anywhere I turn, I'm going to get another set of lever parts for the new pistons, and then I'm done.
Next sign of trouble, they go in the trash. In the meantime, I'm using a Level TL for a rear brake, so it's kinda like having the Magura MT Trail Sports that I was eyeing(and would have already ordered if I didn't have all this SRAM stuff that I don't want to be wasted-parts, pads, bleed kit, etc).


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Interestingly there's a whole bunch of Guide R brake sets showing up on e-Bay from China; all in the $20 range with free shipping. Most claim to be take-offs; some as new and some used. Just for laughs I ordered a pair (a fool and his money will soon be parted?) that allegedly have already had the Gen 2 re-work done by a shop.

In regards to my own bike I've switched to Shimano XT's (M785) and they work fine; not quite as nice as the Guides IMHO for all the reasons mentioned previously but I don't have to worry about riding on a hot sunny day.

(Maybe now that winter's coming on I won't have to bother with my wife's bike until spring?)

In other e-Bay news also from China are aluminum master cylinder pistons ("spools"?) for Guide brakes at $10 a pop; they were out of the "R" version but still had the "RSC" listed. When/if they get back in stock I might try a couple.


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

For those of you going the DIY route, a tip on sanding: After removing the seals and pulling off the spring, lightly chuck the piston in a drill by the spring end. Spin it up and and lightly touch the sandpaper to it. If you're careful you can get a pretty consistent diameter rather than a hex/octagon shape if you were to rub the piston along sandpaper on the bench top. Poor man's lathe.



OwenM said:


> .... "generation 2". Per a SRAM tech guy, the seals on the piston have been upgraded, as well as the bore diameter reduced. Apparently they could "roll over", as I think he put it, causing a loss of pressure at the lever. What a coincidence, as that is consistent with my current issue....


I had them side by side last night and nothing jumped out as different with the seals. Have to take their word for it. The new piston was slightly smaller diameter than my sanded version.



Moe Ped said:


> (Maybe now that winter's coming on I won't have to bother with my wife's bike until spring?)


Mine wouldn't release at 75*F or in my basement at 65*F. After applying an icepack and testing with IR thermometer they were still stuck at 50*F and I gave up. Once removing the pistons from the bodies i doubt any temperature variance in the metal would have solved how stuck they were. At least for me anyway.


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## wenna (Jul 7, 2016)

Are the 2017 brakes also affected by this? Before I purchased my 2017 Guide RSCs I asked the shop about the sticky lever. They came back to me a few days later and said the 2017 brakes were unaffected, so I purchased them.

Today I had a look in the 2017 and 2018 sram spare parts catalog and noticed that in the 2018 catalog the parts number for the lever internals was changed from 11.5018.005.005 to 11.5018.005.010 and named 2nd generation.
This makes me believe I might not have the 2nd generation internals. Or maby sram started upgrading them in 2017 but the parts catalog still did not have the new parts number?

I just built the bike and it will sit unused until summer. I don´t want summer to come around only to notice the brakes has to be warrantied. So is there some way to know for sure if my 2017 brakes have the updated internals?


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

wenna said:


> Are the 2017 brakes also affected by this? Before I purchased my 2017 Guide RSCs I asked the shop about the sticky lever. They came back to me a few days later and said the 2017 brakes were unaffected, so I purchased them.
> 
> Today I had a look in the 2017 and 2018 sram spare parts catalog and noticed that in the 2018 catalog the parts number for the lever internals was changed from 11.5018.005.005 to 11.5018.005.010 and named 2nd generation.
> This makes me believe I might not have the 2nd generation internals. Or maby sram started upgrading them in 2017 but the parts catalog still did not have the new parts number?
> ...


Probably NOT fixed. But no one is going to warranty them until they exhibit symptoms of the problem. If it's a huge deal to think about the bike a little early and check the brakes and see if they're working, just go get some new brakes. Otherwise, it's taken a week or less for both sets of levers I've had warrantied. It wasn't the end of the world either time.


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

Yes, almost all 2017 model year bikes are affected. Keep in mind parts are sourced many months in advance of a bike hitting the LBS.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

COMTBR said:


> Yes, almost all 2017 model year bikes are affected. Keep in mind parts are sourced many months in advance of a bike hitting the LBS.


I have ridden my guide Rs on a 2017 bronson and so far, no issues after 50+ hours of riding all summer... knock on wood.


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

The fixed parts only started shipping in like June 2017 or something (the date is earlier in this thread on the actual SRAM statement.) So just do the math.
If you took delivery of you 2017 model year bike even in July, you’ve got the bad parts. Most bikes are built pretty quick in the model year and what continues to ship throughout the season is built up warehouse inventory. Mostly. 
That’s why I say, if you have a 2017 MY bike, it’s probably got the bad parts.


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## wenna (Jul 7, 2016)

COMTBR said:


> The fixed parts only started shipping in like June 2017 or something (the date is earlier in this thread on the actual SRAM statement.) So just do the math.
> If you took delivery of you 2017 model year bike even in July, you've got the bad parts. Most bikes are built pretty quick in the model year and what continues to ship throughout the season is built up warehouse inventory. Mostly.
> That's why I say, if you have a 2017 MY bike, it's probably got the bad parts.


I built my bike just now and purchased the brakes last week. On the boxes of the brakes it says week 23 2017. Was in contact with Sram and they are going to check my serial numbers. Apparently only early production 2017 brakes are not updated.

Checked the photos of the gen2 internals compared to gen1. Gen2 has red internals for the contact point adjuster. If you remove the lever you can see if it's red or black. Mine are red so probably gen2.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

kpdemello said:


> I have ridden my guide Rs on a 2017 bronson and so far, no issues after 50+ hours of riding all summer... knock on wood.


I'm afraid that doesn't mean much. I originally swapped the pistons in both my levers when the rear brake stuck. They'd been fine for 14 months, and living in the South I ride year-round. 8 months went by before the next issue-whatever is going on with the rear brake this time.
Better to do it when you can plan it, not after the fact. My front brake has worked perfectly through it all, and I've got a spare brake on the rear right now, so it's no emergency. Generation 2 pistons arriving today, and hopefully going in tomorrow, though.


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## wenna (Jul 7, 2016)

wenna said:


> I built my bike just now and purchased the brakes last week. On the boxes of the brakes it says week 23 2017. Was in contact with Sram and they are going to check my serial numbers. Apparently only early production 2017 brakes are not updated.
> 
> Checked the photos of the gen2 internals compared to gen1. Gen2 has red internals for the contact point adjuster. If you remove the lever you can see if it's red or black. Mine are red so probably gen2.


Edit:
Just received news from Sram that one of my brakes has 1st generation and the CPA parts still are red.....so red CPA internals is not a sign of 2nd generation.

If the serial number of your brake starts with 26T7 or higher you have 2nd generation. Lower like 21T7 and its 1st generation.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

So here's the S/N of a Guide R I know to be bad; whether there's a date code hidden herein or they're just numbered sequentially IDK:









Would it be too easy for SRAM to make public a range of serial numbers likely to be bad?


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## wenna (Jul 7, 2016)

Moe Ped said:


> So here's the S/N of a Guide R I know to be bad; whether there's a date code hidden herein or they're just numbered sequentially IDK:
> 
> View attachment 1166770
> 
> ...


I agree with you, they should make it public. But to their credit they are really fast to reply on e-mail and they told me the range. But yeah... you shouldn´t have to ask for it.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

wenna said:


> I agree with you, they should make it public. But to their credit they are really fast to reply on e-mail and they told me the range. But yeah... you shouldn´t have to ask for it.


Care to share that range with us?


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## wenna (Jul 7, 2016)

Moe Ped said:


> Care to share that range with us?


Already did



wenna said:


> Edit:
> If the serial number of your brake starts with 26T7 or higher you have 2nd generation. Lower like 21T7 and its 1st generation.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

wenna said:


> Already did


Now I remember! Thanks


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## wenna (Jul 7, 2016)

Funny thing though is that out of my two brakes, one of them feels sticky when indoor in my apartment. BUT.... the one that feels sticky in room temperature is the one with the caliper serial suggesting its 2nd generation. The other one that according to serial nr is 1st generation feels snappy and good in room temperature.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

wenna said:


> I agree with you, they should make it public. But to their credit they are really fast to reply on e-mail and they told me the range. But yeah... you shouldn´t have to ask for it.


No, they really should do a recall, but I'm sure that would be expensive.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

wenna said:


> Are the 2017 brakes also affected by this?


Look, they can't fix this. Have you any idea how long this nonsense has been going on? I was pulling stuck brakes off bikes years ago, and we're still talking about it?


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

wenna said:


> Edit:
> Just received news from Sram that one of my brakes has 1st generation and the CPA parts still are red.....so red CPA internals is not a sign of 2nd generation.
> 
> If the serial number of your brake starts with 26T7 or higher you have 2nd generation. Lower like 21T7 and its 1st generation.


Crap.. based on this I have the 1st gen. Well, I was thinking about replacing them anyway. Might make a good winter project.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> Look, they can't fix this. Have you any idea how long this nonsense has been going on? I was pulling stuck brakes off bikes years ago, and we're still talking about it?


Has shimano been able to fix the wandering bite point problem? That's actually a serious question.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

OwenM said:


> Now 7-8 months later, there's apparently fluid getting past a seal on my rear brake's lever, presumably at the piston. One of the guys at SRAM talked me through a host of possibilities, most of which I'd already confirmed were not the problem. He even went and consulted whoever else, and called me back months they were working properly.


Ok, this was my fault, not the brake's. Why it took months, why it's only the rear brake and how the brake was losing pressure without a noticeable fluid leak, I don't know. I suppose whatever tiny amount of fluid leaked out was chalked up to removing the syringe after bleeding(plus I spray down the caliper immediately due to the DOT fluid).
Anyway, after swapping pistons again, the problem with my rear brake persisted. I got the bright idea of hooking a Guide lever to a Level caliper, having read their valving was the same. And it worked, my lever was good to go. That narrowed things down to the Guide caliper. I kept wondering why everything was fine during the bleed, but not afterward, and that made it pretty obvious, especially when I'd had some nagging thought about the bleed screw bottoming out not feeling right. And that was it. Those extra o-rings in my stainless caliper hardware kit weren't extras, and I didn't have an o-ring under the bleed screws. Duh.

Stupid stainless bolts. They look pretty sharp, though, and go ok with the ti mounting bolts. There's an OEM ti set(Guide Ultimate?), too, but I wasn't willing to pay for it.







I feel like an idiot over that o-ring, but *am* glad I got the new pistons swapped in. I can swap lever pistons and get a perfect bleed blindfolded at this point, too


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## wenna (Jul 7, 2016)

wenna said:


> Edit:
> Just received news from Sram that one of my brakes has 1st generation and the CPA parts still are red.....so red CPA internals is not a sign of 2nd generation.
> 
> If the serial number of your brake starts with 26T7 or higher you have 2nd generation. Lower like 21T7 and its 1st generation.


So I got the option from the shop to return my brake and get a new one sent to me. This is just too much of a hassle as I have to remove the brake, package it, send it, whait for new one, install new one, cut brake line, bleed the brake.

Ended up with them sending me the updated internals kit including a bottle of dot fluid and some dot grease and I´ll change the internals myself.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

OwenM said:


> I feel like an idiot over that o-ring, but *am* glad I got the new pistons swapped in. I can swap lever pistons and get a perfect bleed blindfolded at this point, too


Funny I posted that, and when I went to ride, the rear brake "pumped up", and the lever became rock hard with no free movement. I ended up bleeding it again, even draining fluid, squeezing the lever with the caliper bleed screw out, to see if that would relieve pressure in the system. Something, anything. Lever would loosen up and go to the bar, but then pump up again the next time it was squeezed. I kept trying, and the brake actually works perfectly right now(but...why, how?), just firmer at the lever and faster engaging than the front, so it has to be feathered more lightly to modulate. All my problems have been with that same brake, while the front is still fine. I've run out of patience with trying to fix it, being lied to by both my LBS and internet dealer when trying to warranty it, and now having it inexplicably working, yet wondering what it will do next. Don't know, don't care, done with it. Figure it's best to replace them while they're still working, and spent almost $400 getting a set of Maguras with rotors, extra pads, fluid, bleed kit, etc. headed my way this morning. If they're all they're cracked up to be, it will be well worth it not to have to fool with these Guides any more.
I hope for everyone else that the warranty replacements and Generation 2 versions are free of issues, but that'll be for someone else to discover...


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

Can't help but keep brainstorming. My job is basically keeping problems from happening within multiple contained systems, fixing them when they do, and then keeping them from happening again...
Since I temporarily used a Level with the same brake line, I cut a bit of excess length off, and switched the barb and olive to the newer "Stealthamajig" ones that are supposed to be backwards compatible. I'd be interested to hear if anyone is using them with older Guides, and am actually kind of tempted to try again with the old style fittings just to see. I tend not to quit plugging away at a mystery problem until there are no stones left unturned


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

kpdemello said:


> Has shimano been able to fix the wandering bite point problem? That's actually a serious question.


You'll probably find that all manufacturers have had issues with their brakes. What makes Avid/SRAM special is that they have had more or less exactly the same issue from day one and it still keeps reoccurring. Some balloon neg-reped me for saying that they cannot fix this but I've yet to see the evidence that says otherwise. They have yet to produce a series of brakes that has no seizing issues.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> You'll probably find that all manufacturers have had issues with their brakes. What makes Avid/SRAM special is that they have had more or less exactly the same issue from day one and it still keeps reoccurring. Some balloon neg-reped me for saying that they cannot fix this but I've yet to see the evidence that says otherwise. They have yet to produce a series of brakes that has no seizing issues.


Some balloon? Now that's funny. I'm picturing some troll face painted on a red balloon floating away in panic. You've made my day.

To their credit, you have to admit, with the Guides SRAM found a completely NEW way to cause the brakes to seize, it's a completely different problem than the Elixirs, which nearly the same result. I mean, ultimately, that takes a certain amount of talent, does it not? Either that, or a room full of engineers that don't know how to balance a differential equation.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Cotharyus said:


> Some balloon? Now that's funny.


Well, I don't mind getting neg-rep if I say something horrible or stupid but kinda pisses you off when you get it for saying something that's patently true. I would've neg-repped him back but I've already pos-repped him so I can't... yet ;0)

That's what I mean about them not being able to fix it. There is clearly some defect in the design department when they keep making the same sort of mistakes. I just don't see any reason to trust these people.


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

bme107 said:


> For those of you going the DIY route, a tip on sanding: After removing the seals and pulling off the spring, lightly chuck the piston in a drill by the spring end. Spin it up and and lightly touch the sandpaper to it. If you're careful you can get a pretty consistent diameter rather than a hex/octagon shape if you were to rub the piston along sandpaper on the bench top. Poor man's lathe.
> 
> I had them side by side last night and nothing jumped out as different with the seals. Have to take their word for it. The new piston was slightly smaller diameter than my sanded version.
> 
> Mine wouldn't release at 75*F or in my basement at 65*F. After applying an icepack and testing with IR thermometer they were still stuck at 50*F and I gave up. Once removing the pistons from the bodies i doubt any temperature variance in the metal would have solved how stuck they were. At least for me anyway.


Hi, I have a lot of guides and DB5's, all gen 1. Sanding has worked great, but it would be nice to know what dia. to sand down to. Did you measure gen 2 dia. by any chance. If not, I'll probably buy a new set to measure. I do the same trick with inserting the piston into a drill. I have done about 7 pairs now, all working great and they all got trhough the Texas summer. Knock on wood.


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

Asmodeus2112 said:


> Hi, I have a lot of guides and DB5's, all gen 1. Sanding has worked great, but it would be nice to know what dia. to sand down to. Did you measure gen 2 dia. by any chance. If not, I'll probably buy a new set to measure. I do the same trick with inserting the piston into a drill. I have done about 7 pairs now, all working great and they all got trhough the Texas summer. Knock on wood.


9.38mm is what I've made all mine to.

The bore is 9.50mm as best I can tell.


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## subspd (Jan 24, 2007)

I went through two sets of these brakes with both sets failing. Ended up ditching them for XTs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

link1896 said:


> 9.38mm is what I've made all mine to.
> 
> The bore is 9.50mm as best I can tell.


No claims as to the accuracy of my calipers, but in inches, the ones I just removed were .369(which is 9.38mm)-.371", and the newest ones were .363(9.22mm)-.364". While lacking certainty about the absolute accuracy, I suppose the difference is what's important. So .006-.007"/~.16mm smaller than the previous rendition.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

OwenM said:


> No claims as to the accuracy of my calipers, but in inches, the ones I just removed were .369(which is 9.38mm)-.371", and the newest ones were .363(9.22mm)-.364". While lacking certainty about the absolute accuracy, I suppose the difference is what's important. So .006-.007"/~.16mm smaller than the previous rendition.


FWIW I think a big part of the problem with Avid/Guide brakes is the lack of QC with the manufacture of the lever housings; as said they appear to be of a nominal 9.50mm bore dimension but those that I have measured are always a little undersized even though with wear one would expect them to be slightly oversized.

I just checked an old Juicy I had laying around and the smallest part of the bore was 9.47mm and the largest part on the piston was 9.50mm or in other words a 0.03mm interference fit. Of course when in position it had positive clearance (brake wasn't sticking) but I could feel the tight spots when removing/installing the piston.

I had measured the sticking Guide R I had pulled apart and noticed similar discrepancies. Since I originally was getting no help from my LBS I ordered a Gen2 kit to do the work myself and the lands on the G2 spool measured L to R 9.24mm, 9.13mm, 9.13mm, 9.24mm.









For my next experiment I'm going measure one of these pistons after putting it in boiling water to see what the thermal expansion is. Stay tuned.

But the happy ending to my Guide R story is that a friend of a friend who knows somebody was able to get me warranty replacement lever assemblies for both of my bikes no charge. Of course I have to do the swap/bleed myself but that's OK. I heard that the "somebody" requested an "herbal" tip for their trouble. Not exactly good for SRAM's warranty service reputation not that I really care.


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

It's very hard to measure the bore accurately. I sure don't have a bore gauge that can get down to ~9.5mm in a hole this deep.

I turned up a dummy plug in the lathe, wiping off 0.02mm a time, and tested fit. I found about 5 levers all to be accurately machined to 9.50mm, suggesting the levers were all machined properly with carbide tipped tooling and the fault lies with the nylon pistons. 

I was making my own aluminium pistons for a while. I was machining to 9.40-9.43mm and lubricating with red rubber grease.

Need to pull my main XC bikes levers apart and look at wear of the lever body. My fear is dirt will get in and score up the bore. 

I'm using calibrated external micrometers to measure, I don't trust my mitutoyo verniers beyond +/- 0.1mm, they just don't have the repeatability.


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

Moe Ped said:


> Interestingly there's a whole bunch of Guide R brake sets showing up on e-Bay from China; all in the $20 range with free shipping. Most claim to be take-offs; some as new and some used. Just for laughs I ordered a pair (a fool and his money will soon be parted?) that allegedly have already had the Gen 2 re-work done by a shop.
> 
> In regards to my own bike I've switched to Shimano XT's (M785) and they work fine; not quite as nice as the Guides IMHO for all the reasons mentioned previously but I don't have to worry about riding on a hot sunny day.
> 
> ...


Did they come in? Verdict?


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

avc8130 said:


> Did they come in? Verdict?


In regards to the cheap used Guide R brakes they're not due in yet; literally being shipped (allegedly) via the "slow boat from China"---no notice of shipment yet either which worries me. As soon as they're past their due date I'll try contacting the seller and see if I've been gypped.

In regards to the aluminum internals they've only recently become available again for the R/RS/etc models; I did order a pair but don't expect to see them until around Christmas.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Moe Ped said:


> In regards to the cheap used Guide R brakes they're not due in yet; literally being shipped (allegedly) via the "slow boat from China"---no notice of shipment yet either which worries me. As soon as they're past their due date I'll try contacting the seller and see if I've been gypped.
> 
> In regards to the aluminum internals they've only recently become available again for the R/RS/etc models; I did order a pair but don't expect to see them until around Christmas.


In regards to the cheap used Guide R brakes from China/Germany both sets were scams and the sellers vaporized. (Maybe the same D-bag with different ID's)

EBay good to their satisfaction guarantee immediately refunded my money once made aware these crooks.

In regards to the the aluminum internals I received a set and they are as advertised. Came with the seals, cheaper than buying a plastic OEM SRAM rebuild kit. I no longer have any Guide R brakes to try them in though.

Maybe someday.


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## k1ng (Aug 4, 2008)

wenna said:


> Edit:
> Just received news from Sram that one of my brakes has 1st generation and the CPA parts still are red.....so red CPA internals is not a sign of 2nd generation.
> 
> If the serial number of your brake starts with 26T7 or higher you have 2nd generation. Lower like 21T7 and its 1st generation.


So I was looking at 2017 Guide RS Carbon brake set for sale and the serial numbers are 41T6. Does the 6 indicate they are from 2016 and would definitely be 1st gen??


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## k1ng (Aug 4, 2008)

k1ng said:


> So I was looking at 2017 Guide RS Carbon brake set for sale and the serial numbers are 41T6. Does the 6 indicate they are from 2016 and would definitely be 1st gen??


So I emailed SRAM and this is what the numbers mean:

"41T6 would be 2016 production. 41 would be the week of the year, so they would have been the 41st week of 2016."


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

I ordered a pair on Knipex 4811J0 Internal Straight Precision Retaining Ring Pliers 5.5-Inch and they work great. Guide R and DB5 are the most difficult to get the snap ring out of, these really help. Just use a pick to push the ring around to the best position and these pliers are perfect.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003UHUD5M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## CORTH (May 13, 2015)

For a few months my Guide RSC levers have had “poor return”. I found this thread and ordered the rebuild kits, but since the bike was still rideable, rebuilding the levers wasn’t essential—until today. The first warm day of the year was today, and in the heat, the levers became stuck locking the wheels. Tonight, I rebuilt the levers. The first lever took an hour, and the second lever took 15 minutes. Once you know what you are doing, the rebuild is quite easy. Back to smooth goodness. SRAM should do a campagne to get these bad levers out of the hands of users. It could be a safety issue for an unsuspecting rider.


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## Bong_Crosby (Oct 10, 2006)

So glad I found this thread. My brakes have been acting weird since last fall. They were dragging intermittently and I couldn't figure out what the deal was. Finally, this past week down in Southern Utah, they locked up completely and the temps were only in the 70s Fahrenheit (sorry rest of the world, I have no idea what that is in Celsius).

Just got off chat with Trek and they refuse to even acknowledge the issue.

I'm thinking about getting a battery powered hair dryer, starting at the top of our bomber hill, obtain terminal velocity and then firing up the hair dryer point blank at my front lever and sendin' meself OTB. There's got to be a lawsuit somewhere in there.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Did you buy direct from trek? (can you even do that?) If not, go to the place you bought the bike from. Or, go talk to SRAM directly.

Or just buy the $20 rebuild kit and do it yourself.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Yeah, if the bike is still under warranty just take it back and let them deal with it.


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## Bong_Crosby (Oct 10, 2006)

I took it to the shop I purchased it from and they took it in right away. It was obvious I wasn't the first person coming to their shop with this problem. So, it's in the shop waiting for parts as I type this.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

I was in Moab last weekend and my Avid Guide model R brakes froze up on two bikes on the same ride. I wasn't aware of this thread and my one bike has 1900 miles on it with no problems. Anyway, took my bikes to the LBS and Avid is sending new levers for both bikes under warranty. I am satisfied. Yay for me! My bikes were model year 2017. I didn't get a chance to see the date codes.

In other news I have some 2007 Juicey7s that are starting to get mushy. I wonder if they are covered under warranty? LOL


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## funnyjr (Oct 31, 2009)

CORTH said:


> For a few months my Guide RSC levers have had "poor return". I found this thread and ordered the rebuild kits, but since the bike was still rideable, rebuilding the levers wasn't essential-until today. The first warm day of the year was today, and in the heat, the levers became stuck locking the wheels. Tonight, I rebuilt the levers. The first lever took an hour, and the second lever took 15 minutes. Once you know what you are doing, the rebuild is quite easy. Back to smooth goodness. SRAM should do a campagne to get these bad levers out of the hands of users. It could be a safety issue for an unsuspecting rider.


I don't understand how SRAM can avoid doing a recall from this when so many riders are at risk.

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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Well, it definitely wasn't a great time to find out about this in the middle of the desert in Moab. My bike was 1 1/2 yrs old and well broken in. I thought it was the calipers out on the trail and turns out it was the levers. I'm letting all my friends know. I wonder if the NHSA administration knows about this?


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## DM-SC (Jan 12, 2004)

Though I was lucky (Ha!) that neither of my DB5 failures killed me, I agree that there should have been a recall.

When my rear lever failed last spring, I specifically asked my LBS to request both levers. They said SRAM would only send the rear.

All was well for almost a year then the front failed.

This time, SRAM replaced both with Guide R levers.

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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

funnyjr said:


> I don't understand how SRAM can avoid doing a recall from this when so many riders are at risk.


Cost.


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it), the failing brakes are locked up which isn't as dangerous as them not working when needed. Therefore, the liability issues are severely lessened which allows them to ignore a recall.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

On my wife's bike the front brake went into a mode that was either free wheeling or complete lockup if you touched the lever. In Moab that is not something that you want and could easily throw the rider. I remember a while back a major bike manufacture had a recall because the pedals were not torqued properly. I am not ripping on SRAM here since I really like there products, I am just feeling sorry for myself since I don't get to go out of town much and to have both bikes break down for something that could have been prevented was disappointing to say the least. I didn't know about the cold water fix for maybe I could have attached some ice packs to handle bars. LOL


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

DM-SC said:


> Though I was lucky (Ha!) that neither of my DB5 failures killed me, I agree that there should have been a recall.
> 
> When my rear lever failed last spring, I specifically asked my LBS to request both levers. They said SRAM would only send the rear.
> 
> ...


My failed brake levers were "R" models. Hmmmmmm.........


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## DM-SC (Jan 12, 2004)

Giant Warp said:


> My failed brake levers were "R" models. Hmmmmmm.........


The new ones they sent were supposedly the latest 'fixed' versions.

I probably won't find out if they are actually fixed.

I swapped them for SLX while I was waiting in the SRAM replacements to arrive.

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## Bogdan_mb (Apr 1, 2013)

After more than a year (which I hoped in vain), my rear RSC got stuck in the best way possible; it threw me OTB in a valley (thanks God it was a bush to save me) so I'll start with @#%$ SRAM ! ! ! 

Anyways, second part of the ordeal , this happened while I was relocating to Barcelona, so the only place that had the kit, sold it for €40 and directed me to someone else for another €26 labor. 64 euros / $80 for a plastic crap :madmax: :madmax:

Now the thing is , picked the bike today from the shop where they barely speak any English to find out shortly that contact point adjuster was stuck. 

So is there anything I can do to make the adjuster work again (and sell them as fast I can) ?


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

Bogdan_mb said:


> After more than a year (which I hoped in vain), my rear RSC got stuck in the best way possible; it threw me OTB in a valley (thanks God it was a bush to save me) so I'll start with @#%$ SRAM ! ! !
> 
> Anyways, second part of the ordeal , this happened while I was relocating to Barcelona, so the only place that had the kit, sold it for €40 and directed me to someone else for another €26 labor. 64 euros / $80 for a plastic crap :madmax: :madmax:
> 
> ...


Could be assembled incorrectly, or could be just stuck. Try pliers and a rag to grab the cp adjuster and turn in.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

I actually like the guide brakes. My bike is super heavy plus riding weight equals 250 lbs total. I thought it was weird that I wore out a rear rotor and several brake pads in the rear while the front was still good. Now I know why.


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## TT2 (Jul 26, 2008)

I finally got my EZMTB Master bleed kit (surprisingly good) and some DOT 5.1 so I thought I'd shave the pistons and rebuild my levers today. Not a difficult task but I broke one of the seals on the plastic piston (then went full-tilt Yosemite Sam for a minute). I guess I'll be getting those eBay aluminum pistons kits because it'd be easier than trying to source the piston seals...

Unless someone already knows where/how to order them???

FWIW, I live in Thailand.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Yosemite Sam in Thailand.....priceless. LOL 

Try calling customer service. Maybe they will send you some new levers. Doesn't hurt to try.


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## TT2 (Jul 26, 2008)

Contacted SRAM Thailand via Facebook. Immediate response and they said they were going to see if they had them and would get back to me soon! Woohoo!


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Sweet!


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Got new levers with one week turn around. I had "R" models and now I have "RSC" levers. I was charged $20 per bike which I was told was less than half of what they should have charged. Anyway, I have brakes now. Yay for me!


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## 6thElement (Jul 17, 2006)

Can I get away with not changing to the new style barb and olive when doing a lever swap?


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## doc diode (May 20, 2018)

OK, so my Guide RS brakes were seizing up (again) now that it is warm outside. Last time, the LBS where I bought the bike just did a bleed and they were fine - in the cool air conditioning of their shop, of course. And they were fine all winter. Had some issues this week so I just did a quick test with a hair dryer to the lever pistons and they seized right up again; it did not take much heat at all! Dropped off at LBS and they are going to contact SRAM. We'll see how far they are willing to go. This is a 2017 bike.


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## doc diode (May 20, 2018)

OK, SRAM sent replacement levers, which includes the entire upper assembly, so levers, pistons, reservoir, etc. I asked if they gave it the hair dryer test and they said no. So I got my hair dryer out of my truck, just to make sure, and we are good to go! These are actually Level TL brakes, not Guide RS. My mistake.


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

I just got a set of guide brakes given to me by a buddy. He didn't want to deal with them. 

So I hopped on eBay and ordered a set of the Chinese $20 pistons to give a try. 

I hope to install them this weekend. 

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## jusutus (Oct 4, 2017)

avc8130 said:


> I just got a set of guide brakes given to me by a buddy. He didn't want to deal with them.
> 
> So I hopped on eBay and ordered a set of the Chinese $20 pistons to give a try.
> 
> I hope to install them this weekend.


Let us know how it goes. Will you use the original seal rings or the ones supplied with the Chinese pistons?


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

jusutus said:


> Let us know how it goes. Will you use the original seal rings or the ones supplied with the Chinese pistons?


I installed them with the ones supplied, was that a bad move?

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## jusutus (Oct 4, 2017)

avc8130 said:


> I installed them with the ones supplied, was that a bad move?


I don't know. I'm always a bit suspicious when it comes to Chinese stuff. Did you compare them to the originals visually?


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

jusutus said:


> I don't know. I'm always a bit suspicious when it comes to Chinese stuff. Did you compare them to the originals visually?


I replaced one of my lever pistons with the Chinese aluminum pistons and it has been doing it's job for the last couple of months. Time will tell.


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## jusutus (Oct 4, 2017)

Are there any special tool required in addition to the Chinese pistons? I have RSC's so no snap ring AFAIK.


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

jusutus said:


> Are there any special tool required in addition to the Chinese pistons? I have RSC's so no snap ring AFAIK.


Not really. I didn't even use snap ring pliers. Mine wouldn't reach down into the bore. I got the snap rings out with a pair of long reach needle nose pliers.

You will need a Sram bleed kit...

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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

RSC indeed does not use a snap ring. But you need to clock the contact point adjuster if you're not using the RSC rebuild tool that sets the swing links pushrods depth. Wind the contact adjuster barrel all the way in, then put 4.5 turns into the pushrod (starting with it fully tight), it's got about 5 turns before it falls out. 

A piece of 1/2" water pipe and a flat blade screw driver will help assembling the sleeve and coupler.


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## jusutus (Oct 4, 2017)

Got my Chinese pistons today but I think I'll replace them during the winter. Haven't had any major issues with heat so far.


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

My Guide R brakes starting acting up after three years of great performance. In heat they would be locked up and then nothing. Shop is replacing them under warranty. I’m picking my bike up Monday so I’ll see what they replaced them with. 


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## L8 APEKS (May 29, 2008)

What a royal PITA...my brand new bike out of the box had Guides and the left lever is stuck down. Instead of riding my brand new bike, I'm dropping it off for warranty replacement...

...I think.

It's either that, or spend another couple hundred bucks, buy some Shimanos, and be done with it.

Been on M785 XT's for *years* and I've never had a single problem. Hell, I'm still on the factory bleed.


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## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

L8 APEKS said:


> What a royal PITA...my brand new bike out of the box had Guides and the left lever is stuck down. Instead of riding my brand new bike, I'm dropping it off for warranty replacement...
> 
> ...I think.
> 
> ...


May 2017 my Guide RS front locked up. LBS replaced both levers and they've been great since and still on same bleed a year later. The lever pull and strong springy return hasn't changed(other then pad wear) despite being 100+ in my garage at times or direct sun. Hopefully your LBS doesn't screw you and replaces your levers, like they should.


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## L8 APEKS (May 29, 2008)

Chicane32 said:


> May 2017 my Guide RS front locked up. LBS replaced both levers and they've been great since and still on same bleed a year later. The lever pull and strong springy return hasn't changed(other then pad wear) despite being 100+ in my garage at times or direct sun. Hopefully your LBS doesn't screw you and replaces your levers, like they should.


They said SRAM sent them a box of levers and they replace them on a regular basis (he said 3 last week). I'm just scared they'll still give me issues in the heat.

In the mean time, I put my front M785 XT on, so I can hopefully ride on Tuesday.


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## Dropper (Mar 1, 2018)

Yup i bought a used but never ridden enduro for my daughter on ebay for her BDay. It basically had parking lot bike store rides on it. Lady buys it never rides it sits for year and a half Sells to me, guides done for right out of the get go when i get it. I did get it for a screaming deal but was like had you told me but shame on me i should have expected it. Luckily jensons 40 mins from house and got xts on it that day, my first world crisis averted.

I should have known better as my sons guides went out at a park and of course paid full retail for new SLXs but whatcha gonna do when your on a vacation.

Lesson, just swap em for any shimano and dont be stranded.


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

Got my fat bike back with new levers. Same Guide R as before. But they feel great. Actually better than my 29r with RSC’s 


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## BillyBicycle (Jul 4, 2016)

new bike (china cheapo carbon fiber) with sram guide brakes. both front and back locked up tight on the first squeeze. online dealer should be sending me two new levers on monday. what a pita. my other bike (motobecane ti fat bike) with guides are fine other than the rear needs a bleed.


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

My 3 year old RSC levers suddenly started acting funny as the temps warmed. Shop said SRAM sent him a box of levers and to just replace. No questions asked. Got my bike back that afternoon. Brakes feel better than ever. 


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## FireCop (Aug 3, 2012)

I have Sram DB5's on my 2017 Turbo Levo Hardtail 29er e-bike. I have grown to hate Sram brakes from other mtb's I have. These are doing the lever not returning thing. Does anyone know of a direct Shimano replacement for the 4 piston front brakes? Not even going to mess with LBS or an overhaul kit. Any information would be appreciated.


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## bbqmike (Jan 5, 2016)

FireCop said:


> I have Sram DB5's on my 2017 Turbo Levo Hardtail 29er e-bike. I have grown to hate Sram brakes from other mtb's I have. These are doing the lever not returning thing. Does anyone know of a direct Shimano replacement for the 4 piston front brakes? Not even going to mess with LBS or an overhaul kit. Any information would be appreciated.


SRAM very much wants to fix this, take the bike to the LBS, they should warranty them, and you *should* get new guide levers because they don't have DB5s anymore, I had to pay for the shop to bleed them though, the replacements are a lot stronger than the originals for some reason as well.

If you want to go shimano anyway, you would want the saint series brakes for that bike.


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## Meeners (Aug 16, 2016)

Does anyone know of a good specialized LBS local to Cincinnati, Ohio. I'm getting this issue now that it's summer time in Ohio. Makes climbing a lot more difficult!!!!!!


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## FireCop (Aug 3, 2012)

Thanks very much for the info and suggestion bbqmike !


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## fossyant (Jun 15, 2018)

My rear Guide RS started sticking about 6 weeks ago - UK has had a summer. Sanded down the piston and it worked, but ordered a replacement from Taiwan - arrived within a week, and replaced So far the front has been fine.


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## sheffbiker (Oct 8, 2007)

*This is what can happen when the front lever locks up on you*









Apologies if anyone is having breakfast while viewing this photo (!) but this is the result of my Guide R front brake locking up on me in the recent hot weather in the UK. Went to dab the front brake, along with the rear, to scrub off a bit of speed before a rocky corner and the front brake did not release. Front wheel locked up all the way into the corner, became uncontrollable, bars whipped right around, front end went down hard and I went over the bars then on to the nearest hospital to have this scrubbed out and dressed. Cost me a few days off work and a painful week of trying not to roll over on it in bed, but nothing broken and nothing that won't grow back as it should.
This "lever sticking" problem is a pretty serious concern as far as I can see. If brake failure of any type is not seen as a warranty issue on a bicycle then I'm not sure what is really. I guess if I had more time on my hands I'd be shopping for a lawyer rather than some new brakes!


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

sheffbiker said:


> If brake failure of any type is not seen as a warranty issue on a bicycle then I'm not sure what is really. I guess if I had more time on my hands I'd be shopping for a lawyer rather than some new brakes!


Sorry about your injury. I'm glad it wasn't worse, it could easily have been.

I do agree that the response of SRAM, amd Avid before them, has been woefully inadequate. If a car manufacturer had behaved like this I reckon there would be people in jail by now.

What I really don't get is the people who defend SRAM brakes. Sure, they may be working ok for many people once they have been modified etc but the problem is too deep to be making excuses. The behavior of SRAM has been reprehensible and there are still hundreds, probably thousands of people out there still using SRAM or Avid brakes that are potentially dangerous. In my opinion the only acceptable response is to completely boycott SRAM brake products.

Not only refuse to buy SRAM brakes but refuse to buy a bike with SRAM brakes on it, and tell the retailer that. Or insist you'll only buy the bike if they replace the brakes free of charge. If SRAM find themselves wiped out of the brake market they might realize there are consequences to selling dangerous products and not adequately addressing the problem. It would send a clear message to them any all the other manufactures that is they don't look after us they will not get away with it.

As it is they have no real incentive to do better. They can produce shoddy kit and get away with it because people will still buy it. I don't understand it at all.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

sheffbiker said:


> View attachment 1207148
> 
> 
> If brake failure of any type is not seen as a warranty issue on a bicycle then I'm not sure what is really.


They do warranty it. I think you mean recall. I've got a theory on why they haven't done a recall.

I've had four levers replaced under warranty for this issue. The thing is, none of them just locked up without warning. They all started to feel a little off, then went into a non-returning (but not locking up - they lost all free stroke) mode before they locked up. And I mean days before they locked up. On the last lever, since it was a rear brake, I let it go until it locked up just to see. Even then, it wasn't as though when I pulled on it, I couldn't tell it was getting ready to lock up prior to the ride. So I have to ask - did your levers feel funny, or did they go from feeling like brand new to completely locked up in one brake pull on one ride? Maybe SRAM thinks people will feel this happening and stop riding the bike, since we all agree brakes are of vital importance, and have it checked out if the process to failure involves stages rather than being sudden and catastrophic.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Cotharyus said:


> They do warranty it. I think you mean recall. I've got a theory on why they haven't done a recall...


Which I cannot agree with at all. It should not be left to the end user to predict if and when his brakes will fail. He is not qualified to do that. If a user knows nothing about this issue, how are they supposed to know that it could cause total brake-lock? Most people would reasonably assume that the product is properly designed and tested and that failure mode is impossible. Which it should be.

And besides, there isn't always warning.

SRAM knew of the problems with their brakes and have done the absolute minimum. Not good enough, not interested in excuses and I will never buy SRAM brakes, ever.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

I have a set of SRAM Level TLs that came on my EX8. They've been working fine for a couple of seasons but yesterday I noticed that I apparently have a sticking piston -- squeezing the lever leaves it loose (although it doesn't lock the wheel). After about a mile it begins working more-or-less normally. I haven't put the thing on the stand yet, but I'm guessing either the caliper pistons are stuck or it just needs a bleed. I suppose it's also possible that it's the lever piston. I'm going to jiggle the pistons and rebleed today, but I haven't really bought any bike parts so far this summer so I confess that I did order a front/rear set of Shimano XT BR M8000s. Hope they work with my Centerline rotors.


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## Dropper (Mar 1, 2018)

There is no reason they wont work with your rotors. Your fine and after my sons went out i went shimanos as well. I do think that sram got this all fixed in 2017 though but anything earlier in the 2015/16 range is suspect to fail.


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## funnyjr (Oct 31, 2009)

I totally agree that Sram should do a recall. With all the risk involved with brake problems it is unreasonable not to. Can not assume that end user should be able to assess for possible brake failure. 


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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

Just buy Shimano. Job done. 

Avid/SRAM have sucked for DECADES.

I won't buy a bike with those branded brakes at all.

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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

Cotharyus said:


> They do warranty it. I think you mean recall. I've got a theory on why they haven't done a recall.
> Even then, it wasn't as though when I pulled on it, I couldn't tell it was getting ready to lock up prior to the ride. So I have to ask - did your levers feel funny, or did they go from feeling like brand new to completely locked up in one brake pull on one ride? Maybe SRAM thinks people will feel this happening and stop riding the bike, since we all agree brakes are of vital importance, and have it checked out if the process to failure involves stages rather than being sudden and catastrophic.


Mine started to feel funny, and I knew what it was based on this thread. I figured I'd put it off until winter. Stopping to chat with the bike lying in the sun, then hopping off to continue riding escalated things quickly. Temp has a big impact on this and can happen a lot quicker than over days/weeks.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

ravewoofer said:


> Just buy Shimano. Job done.
> 
> Avid/SRAM have sucked for DECADES.
> 
> ...


I'd buy a bike with them but would have shimanos already sitting on the bench ready for install the minute I got the bike home. I'd rather ride shimano entry level hydraulics (still have a set on one bike) than risk Sram failing on me.

Sram could make good brakes but their motto is to just slap **** together to get it up for sale at a premium price. Where as shimano prefers the "if it ain't broke dont fix it, improve in it or change the look but dont risk reputation"

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## scooterman (Aug 10, 2004)

100 degrees F at the downhill Mtn last sunday. I told 2 different people that their levers did not need a bleed but were stuck due to heat and not to ride them. Almost no end users know about this issue and SRAM should do a recall.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

ravewoofer said:


> Just buy Shimano. Job done.
> 
> Avid/SRAM have sucked for DECADES.


Totally this. Why bother debating it, just don't use the brakes. It's not as if there are no alternatives. Even if you don't like the feel of Shimano there are still plenty of options to choose from.

What I would really like to see is people going into shops and saying 'I'm not buying that bike because it has SRAM brakes on it'. If enough people did that and it starts getting back to the bike manufacturers they might stop fitting them. Even if the current SRAM brakes are fine, I would still like to see that as it would send the message to SRAM that they can't treat their customers like shite and not face consequences.


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

If brakes acted like this on any automobile, the DOT would mandate a recall. Why not on bikes too. 


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

thecanoe said:


> If brakes acted like this on any automobile, the DOT would mandate a recall. Why not on bikes too.


In the UK at least, there hardly seems to be any real rules about the quality levers a bike has to meet. It sounds like the US is similar. Some of the 'box bikes' sold very cheaply in supermarkets are terrible, plastic brake levers and even plastic calipers. In my opinion they are not safe but no one seems to care.

Just look at threads like this. SRAM put dangerous brakes out year after year and what is the typical reaction? Replace them, try and get SRAM to fix them or fix them yourself. Very few people are saying 'Hang on, why is this even being allowed to happen?'.

And I think you're correct, it comes down to lack of regulation. Car manufacturers know that if hey do not treat customer safety seriously there is a regulatory body waiting to hammer them.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> Which I cannot agree with at all. It should not be left to the end user to predict if and when his brakes will fail. He is not qualified to do that. If a user knows nothing about this issue, how are they supposed to know that it could cause total brake-lock? Most people would reasonably assume that the product is properly designed and tested and that failure mode is impossible. Which it should be.
> 
> And besides, there isn't always warning.
> 
> SRAM knew of the problems with their brakes and have done the absolute minimum. Not good enough, not interested in excuses and I will never buy SRAM brakes, ever.


I just said it was a theory on why they didn't do one. I didn't say it was good reason. I'm a big fan of companies doing things right. It does seem like the right thing would be a recall, but at least no one I personally know has had a hard time getting warranty levers. As for Shimano, it's the same old song and dance. I simply don't like the way they feel. I'm thinking about trying something different on my next bike, but I don't know what it'll be yet. The bike, or the brakes.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Cotharyus said:


> It does seem like the right thing would be a recall, but at least no one I personally know has had a hard time getting warranty levers. As for Shimano, it's the same old song and dance.


I am happy with Shimano brakes but I suspect that if Shimano had been the ones to suffer the issues that have effected SRAM/Avid brakes they would have behaved in more or less exactly the same way. I think that SRAM have failed to step up to their responsibilities but I believe that their attitude is typical of the majority of the industry.


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> And I think you're correct, it comes down to lack of regulation.


About the last thing we need is 'regulation' although I can see where that idea comes from.

In the end, it comes down to the consumer. In a free market, this crap is allowed to happen only so long as the consumer signals that it is acceptable. By continually buying the crap product, be it due to apathy or ignorance, the manufacturer has zero reason or incentive to change.

I was already not-a-fan of SRAM brakes in general but when I picked up a new Stumpy that came with Guide Rs, I didn't even have to wait for the sticking issue to realize I didn't like them. (Shitty feel in general, inadequate power for my riding style, etc.) Living in Arizona where I was riding in the afternoon in temps nearing 110 just days ago, I also knew I wasn't interested in taking any chances with the Guides. They got used for about 1-2 rides until I had the hardware on hand to swap my Shimano's over, and they have collected dust on a shelf ever since.

In stark contrast, I know quite a few people who I have discussed the issues with and they are either not capable of giving a damn, or because they are on a different model from SRAM think that they'll be fine. And they may be, but they still end up supporting a company that has proven to be inept, and possibly full-on negligent.

At this point it's kinda like the Ford Pinto days. If you drive one, and it explodes, it's kinda your own fault anymore... not Ford's. The issue is extremely well-known, and using that product is clearly at-your-own-risk.

As for the Shimano feel that so many dislike, I can only implore you to try out a nice set of the new 8020's if you can find a set to demo. =)

At the very least, there are lotsa other options if that still isn't your cup of tea.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> Sorry about your injury. I'm glad it wasn't worse, it could easily have been.
> 
> I do agree that the response of SRAM, amd Avid before them, has been woefully inadequate. If a car manufacturer had behaved like this I reckon there would be people in jail by now.
> 
> ...


I agree with not buying the product or supporting the company, but I also think that is preferable discipline to more regulation. Regulation ends up imposing a huge cost that only large companies can afford and it ends up being ineffective.

I thought SRAM had to develop SRAM branded brakes because Avid had earned such a bad reputation with customers and companies that product spec the bikes?

All that said, I was attempting to use a temporary seatpost last night and this Truvativ post had me cussing up a storm in the garage. They put heavy lock tight right where the bolts should tighten down on the rails, and the little nuts that it bolts into do not fit in slots, so it's nearly impossible to tighten down and clamp your saddle. WTF? After becoming so frustrated with that and having read through this thread, I also decided to swear off SRAM and SRAM owned products. I was at my end over a loust saddle clamp-urrggghhh!!!

If there is a real safety risk, as with the post above and the gnarly injury, at least in the states you can shop it to a trial attorney who specializes in bike or moto injuries. With pictures like his he should be able to attract an attorney.

All that said, if SRAM is openly using warranty through boxes of replacements shipped to LBS, I don't think one can craft a regulation with a better outcome, or it may have a perceived better outcome but with a huge unintended cost.

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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

I believe if enough of us file a complaint with the US Consumer Products Safety Commission, they'll force a recall. I'll fill this out now...
https://www.saferproducts.gov/CPSRMSPublic/Incidents/ReportIncident.aspx


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

car_nut said:


> I believe if enough of us file a complaint with the US Consumer Products Safety Commission, they'll force a recall. I'll fill this out now...
> https://www.saferproducts.gov/CPSRMSPublic/Incidents/ReportIncident.aspx


I stopped as soon as it required registration and a password-safety loses.

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## acedeuce802 (Jun 30, 2017)

Do you guys know if I can get the updated lever internals warrantied if I wasn't the original purchaser of the brakes? Mine are new take-off's from a 2018 Giant Reign but the serial number starts with 22T7, which from the info above means I have Gen 1 brakes (kind of crazy since they apparently found/fixed this in 2016). 

I've ridden them hard in 95+ degree weather, lift assisted downhill, and 20+ mile rides with a few 1000+ ft descents each ride. I would have thought I would see the issue pop up by now, now that I'm reading into it.


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## sheffbiker (Oct 8, 2007)

Cotharyus said:


> - did your levers feel funny, or did they go from feeling like brand new to completely locked up in one brake pull on one ride? c.


Sorry for the delayed reply - been away working for a few days. My brakes didn't give me any warning of this lock up, but possibly because my local ride is a steep climb up then a downhill back home, and they locked up on the way back down. I think the air temperature was around 25 Celsius perhaps and the climb up under tree cover takes around 35-40 minutes, followed by a 15-20 minute downhill back to the start of the loop (my house) over open ground. It was probably a lot warmer there as it was in full sunshine and I stopped at the beginning to take a phone call for 10 minutes. So maybe the brake got hot at that point and reached the "lock up" temperature. I couldn't really tell if the brakes were dragging at the start of the descent as I was using them on and off from the beginning. I tend to only notice brake drag when I'm riding uphill mostly.
When I recreated the effect in my back garden a few days later the brakes seemed to go from working sluggishly to total lock-on with only around 5 degrees temp difference.
I've since sent the brakes to Sram in the UK "for inspection" and received them back with replaced lever assembly, so will fit them in the next few days and try them out to see if the issue is resolved. Sram obviously do know about the issue I'm guessing, but are not being proactive in trying to sort it out. I'm guessing they are sitting waiting to see if anyone contacts them with the issue, which I still feel is a little unreasonable on their part. I also do quite a bit of rock climbing and the attitude of most climbing gear companies now seems to be "if in doubt, issue a safety bulletin and some kind of resolution for users", this is a lot more honest and transparent I think. As a company they seem to be taking a gamble that this brake lock up will not cause any very serious (disability or death) type injuries, but I think in this day and age you get more respect from customers if you admit there was a design/manufacture problem and you have addressed it. Word does travel quickly on the internet in the biking world.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

car_nut said:


> I believe if enough of us file a complaint with the US Consumer Products Safety Commission, they'll force a recall. I'll fill this out now...
> https://www.saferproducts.gov/CPSRMSPublic/Incidents/ReportIncident.aspx


But...how can I file a complaint? My lever is a big spongy but it hasn't caused me a problem. The brakes haven't locked up and haven't caused me to be injured. I'd feel a bit silly when filling in the blank "I read about it on the internet" in explaining what happened.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> But...how can I file a complaint? My lever is a big spongy but it hasn't caused me a problem. The brakes haven't locked up and haven't caused me to be injured. I'd feel a bit silly when filling in the blank "I read about it on the internet" in explaining what happened.


One option is to GoPro yourself riding "My brake lever is stuck, Oh no!!!". and go over the bars and then file the complaint. Or just go to a shop with the box of warranty levers, tell them yours sucks, too, and ask for the replacement.

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## FireCop (Aug 3, 2012)

Had my '17 Specialized Turbo Levo E-Bike in the LBS for several weeks getting the motor replaced under warranty. When Igot it back, I experienced the Sram "no return" problem on my next ride. I got to thinking, this is probably the 1st time the bike had been in air conditioning that long. Also, we are in a heck of a heat wave here (Kansas), with heat indicies @ 105 to 107.
Anyhow, the LBS was very accomodating. New brake levers, wheel cylinders, rotor, the whole 9 yards. I did not even have to pay for install labor. I forget what Sram brake group they installed. I will check when @ my bike again. It was only the front brake that was seized, but they did the whole back assembly as well ! Much as I hate Sram products, they are taking responsibility for a bad product.


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## funnyjr (Oct 31, 2009)

If they were responsible they would do a recall not just fix after the fact. 


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

So, over the weekend I switched out my SRAM Level TLs for Shimano XT M8000s. I'm sure they're not bedded in yet, but there certainly isn't anything magic about these Shimano brakes that I can yet detect. Stopping power with the SRAMs definitely comes with more authority. I'll ride them for awhile, but so far I'm not particularly impressed with the braking performance of these XTs.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Cuyuna said:


> So, over the weekend I switched out my SRAM Level TLs for Shimano XT M8000s. I'm sure they're not bedded in yet, but there certainly isn't anything magic about these Shimano brakes that I can yet detect. Stopping power with the SRAMs definitely comes with more authority. I'll ride them for awhile, but so far I'm not particularly impressed with the braking performance of these XTs.


The Magic is you'll never have to f with them. I have Shimano XTs that haven't been bleed in over 17 years.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

TwoTone said:


> The Magic is you'll never have to f with them. I have Shimano XTs that haven't been bleed in over 17 years.


Good deal. I'm all in favor of reliability and longevity. It would be nice if they would stop the bike effectively too.....I'll see how these brakes perform out on the trail this afternoon.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Cuyuna said:


> I'll ride them for awhile, but so far I'm not particularly impressed with the braking performance of these XTs.


They bed in quickly so it's unlikely you'll see a dramatic change. They stop you very well, just feel different but once you're used to it I like it. Very light touch which is welcome when your hands are feeling it on a long decent.

Also, if they have metallic pads a switch to resin ones gives a nicer feel and is less prone to noise.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

Cuyuna said:


> Good deal. I'm all in favor of reliability and longevity. It would be nice if they would stop the bike effectively too.....I'll see how these brakes perform out on the trail this afternoon.


I have SLX's, Zee's, Guide RS, and old XT's (like 3 generations ago). If you're running the same sized disk and notice a significant difference in overall stopping power, something is wrong.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

car_nut said:


> If you're running the same sized disk and notice a significant difference in overall stopping power, something is wrong.


There might well be, maybe needing bled. They should throw you over the bars no problem.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> There might well be, maybe needing bled. They should throw you over the bars no problem.


They definitely won't do that, can barely lock the rear wheel. I'll see how they do on the trail. I have to cut the hoses down anyway, so bleeding them is definitely on the agenda.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Cuyuna said:


> They definitely won't do that, can barely lock the rear wheel.


Nope, not right. Should lock up with a light touch.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

Cuyuna said:


> They definitely won't do that, can barely lock the rear wheel. I'll see how they do on the trail. I have to cut the hoses down anyway, so bleeding them is definitely on the agenda.


My guess is the pads/disk are contaminated with mineral oil. My Zee's were when I received them. But, yes, if you can't easily lock the rear wheel with one finger then something is wrong.


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

I'd 2nd the guess on contamination. Had that happen once on my M8000's and used it as an excuse to upgrade the rotors while I was already forking out for another set of pads. That was the only time those brakes ever lacked power in the year or so I ran them. 

If lucky, it could just be badly glazed too. Got ahold of a short strip of cloth-backed sandpapery stuff (dunno it that's qualify as emery cloth or not?) Either way, fine grit, and a quick pass on the pads and rotors, followed by a good bedding-in makes them come alive nicely when that happens.

FWIW, even after bedding in, the Guide R's that came on my last bike didn't hold a candle to the power of the M8000's, despite being 4 piston brakes. Was damn near shitting myself on a descent and grabbing for all the brake I could before quickly switching them for the Shimanos.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

I shortened the brake lines and bled the brakes. Definitely got rid of the mushiness but they still don't stop the bike anywhere near as effectively as the Level TL's that came off of it. They don't howl or chatter. Full-hand mash on either lever definitely slows me down some, rear greater than front but I can't lock the front wheel, can barely lock the rear wheel up on loose rock.

When I bled them after shortening the hoses, I pull the pads of course and cleaned the caliper body with denatured alcohol, scrubbed the rotors with brake cleaner. While the pads were off, I soaked them in denatured alcohol in a heated ultrasonic cleaner, then sanded down the faces lightly.

The reputation of these XT brakes is pretty good, but looking around the web I'm seeing that my experience with them is not unique. So far, I am completely unimpressed. It pisses me off that after spending $160 on these "upgraded" brakes I now have to drop an additional $50 for new, non-contaminated pads on a set of brakes that have less than 20 miles on them. I just came in from a very nice 20 mile ride out on the local singletrack. The best thing I can say about these brakes is that they do slow me down some when I squeeze the lever. As long as I squeeze _hard_....


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Cuyuna said:


> It pisses me off that after spending $160 on these "upgraded" brakes I now have to drop an additional $50 for new, non-contaminated pads on a set of brakes that have less than 20 miles on them.


Either it's a warranty job, if they arrived in a non-working state, or you contaminated them and have no one but yourself to blame. Years ago i had Shimano brakes that leaked at the caliper and Shimano replaced them no problem.


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

Cuyuna said:


> I shortened the brake lines and bled the brakes. Definitely got rid of the mushiness but they still don't stop the bike anywhere near as effectively as the Level TL's that came off of it. They don't howl or chatter. Full-hand mash on either lever definitely slows me down some, rear greater than front but I can't lock the front wheel, can barely lock the rear wheel up on loose rock.
> 
> When I bled them after shortening the hoses, I pull the pads of course and cleaned the caliper body with denatured alcohol, scrubbed the rotors with brake cleaner. While the pads were off, I soaked them in denatured alcohol in a heated ultrasonic cleaner, then sanded down the faces lightly.
> 
> The reputation of these XT brakes is pretty good, but looking around the web I'm seeing that my experience with them is not unique. So far, I am completely unimpressed. It pisses me off that after spending $160 on these "upgraded" brakes I now have to drop an additional $50 for new, non-contaminated pads on a set of brakes that have less than 20 miles on them. I just came in from a very nice 20 mile ride out on the local singletrack. The best thing I can say about these brakes is that they do slow me down some when I squeeze the lever. As long as I squeeze _hard_....


Would advise against brake cleaner on both pads and rotors. That stuff does leave a residue, and unlike the car brakes it is designed for, bike brakes dont get nearly hot enough to burn that residue off. Fairly certain that that is precisely the contamination that caused me to replace pads on my xt's.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

Thoreau said:


> Would advise against brake cleaner on both pads and rotors. That stuff does leave a residue, and unlike the car brakes it is designed for, bike brakes dont get nearly hot enough to burn that residue off. Fairly certain that that is precisely the contamination that caused me to replace pads on my xt's.


Yep. Brake cleaner did nothing for me. I torched the pads until they were smoke free and boiled the disks in dishwasher detergent (the heavy caustic stuff, not Dawn). Yeah, it sucks and I'm sorry you're having troubles. I don't think this is an issue limited to Shimano.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

I'll call Jenson's, but whatever. I'd certainly be willing to accept the blame if the pads had ever worked and now don't, but they completely sucked from the moment I opened the box.

Nice looking brakes, but not impressed so far. We'll see what the new $50 metal pads do. Presumably it will fix the whole problem.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Thoreau said:


> Would advise against brake cleaner on both pads and rotors.


I used the brake cleaner on the rotors only. Denatured alcohol on the pads. That is my particular voodoo for brake bleeding and it's worked fine since my very first set of hydraulic brakes many years ago. Your voodoo may vary....


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Cuyuna said:


> Nice looking brakes, but not impressed so far. We'll see what the new $50 metal pads do.


They are not impressive because they are faulty. It's like putting a brick through your TV then complaining that the picture isn't very good. Once fixed, they will stop you.

Why did you buy the metallic pads?


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> They are not impressive because they are faulty. It's like putting a brick through your TV then complaining that the picture isn't very good. Once fixed, they will stop you.
> 
> Why did you buy the metallic pads?


Yes, obviously. Does not lessen the irritation.

The brakes came with metallic pads. I bought metallic pads to replace because my preference is for longevity over modulation.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Cuyuna said:


> Yes, obviously. Does not lessen the irritation.


I understand that, I would be frustrated too but hopefully you will get them sorted.

I just seems strange that you are complaining about a lack of power and feel yet didn't buy the pads know to improve that. I don't know how much longer the metallic pads last but resin ones have perfectly acceptable life and feel a lot better. Initial bite is better, they have better modulation and still have excellent power. I have done very long descents and have never suffered fade. I guess it must be possible but I think you would need to be doing some fairly full-moo down-hill to bring it on.

There is no free lunch. There is a pretty much direct correlation between longevity and feel. To make pads last longer you need to make them harder and making them harder will reduce the power they power they have grip the disk. Unless you really need the metallic pads I don't see the point of the.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> I understand that, I would be frustrated too but hopefully you will get them sorted.
> 
> I just seems strange that you are complaining about a lack of power and feel yet didn't buy the pads know to improve that. I don't know how much longer the metallic pads last but resin ones have perfectly acceptable life and feel a lot better. Initial bite is better, they have better modulation and still have excellent power. I have done very long descents and have never suffered fade. I guess it must be possible but I think you would need to be doing some fairly full-moo down-hill to bring it on.
> 
> There is no free lunch. There is a pretty much direct correlation between longevity and feel. To make pads last longer you need to make them harder and making them harder will reduce the power they power they have grip the disk. Unless you really need the metallic pads I don't see the point of the.


Well, if all the Shimano enthusiasts are correct (I have no reason to doubt that they are), then I'm sure that once I pass this initial bullshit, the brakes will be fine. Certainly, the quality of the construction is good.

Metallic pads is what I have always used on MTB brakes. Since that's what came with these brakes, I just ordered the same thing as a replacement. You have me re-thinking it, however and articles like this one make me inclined to hit up Amazon and switch the order to the resin pads.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

I personally haven't seen a difference in ultimate braking power between resin/metallic. General reviews indicate that as well. Resin gives more modulation, metallic gives better wet performance. I've always run metallic because of the wet. Mine will all easily lock the rear tire/endo the bike with one finger on 180F/160R.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Cuyuna said:


> Certainly, the quality of the construction is good.


Interestingly, I don't agree! ;0) While I am happy with the performance and love the reliability of Shimano brakes I don't think the build quality is spectacular. I'm not saying it's terrible but the levers in particular are loose and floppy without the solid feel of other brands. Doesn't bother me really but at the same time it's not impressive.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

car_nut said:


> Resin gives more modulation, metallic gives better wet performance. I've always run metallic because of the wet.


I haven't noticed a drop in resin effectiveness in the wet, and I live in Scotland! I'm not saying there isn't one, the different pads exist for a reason, but I simply have not experienced any down side to resin pads.

I have also heard reports of the resin pads falling apart in the wet but again, I have used them for years on several bikes in all weathers and never had a problem.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> I haven't noticed a drop in resin effectiveness in the wet, and I live in Scotland! I'm not saying there isn't one, the different pads exist for a reason, but I simply have not experienced any down side to resin pads.
> 
> I have also heard reports of the resin pads falling apart in the wet but again, I have used them for years on several bikes in all weathers and never had a problem.


Well, in that case you've just never had a chance to experience them dry to notice the difference when wet :lol::lol:

I think the big takeaway in my mind is that what he's dealing with isn't due to pad material, they're contaminated. In my experience it takes some doing to clean them up. Brake cleaner alone on the disks and new pads weren't enough for me.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> Interestingly, I don't agree! ;0) While I am happy with the performance and love the reliability of Shimano brakes I don't think the build quality is spectacular. I'm not saying it's terrible but the levers in particular are loose and floppy without the solid feel of other brands. Doesn't bother me really but at the same time it's not impressive.


^Yup. I warrantied my Guide Ultimate levers cause the adjusters were rattling. I was without them for a month or so (slow LBS) so ran some XTR trail brakes in the meantime. Those seemed like toys compared to my Guides, from a build quality view.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

farfromovin said:


> ^Yup. I warrantied my Guide Ultimate levers cause the adjusters were rattling. I was without them for a month or so (slow LBS) so ran some XTR trail brakes in the meantime. Those seemed like toys compared to my Guides, from a build quality view.


Define build quality, I would think locking up when it gets hot would indicate poor build quality.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

TwoTone said:


> Define build quality, I would think locking up when it gets hot would indicate poor build quality.


Ha ha, this is it! You've got to pick what matters to you.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

TwoTone said:


> Define build quality, I would think locking up when it gets hot would indicate poor build quality.


But that wasn't anything to do with build quality.
Manufacturing quality, yes.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

NordieBoy said:


> But that wasn't anything to do with build quality.
> Manufacturing quality, yes.


What's the difference?


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

I like my Guides. Yes, SRAM could've handled the situation better. I rebuilt my own and they have way better lever feel than all of my Shimano brakes so, TO ME, they are better. I love how all the Shimano fanboys forget about the issues Shimano was having with their brakes.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Rockadile said:


> I love how all the Shimano fanboys forget about the issues Shimano was having with their brakes.


Not at all. I agree that Shimano has had issues with their brakes, and to be honest I don't think they've handled them any better than SRAM have, but the problems have not been of the same magnitude as SRAM's.

Shimano's problems have been very varied and typically sorted out very quickly. They had leaking calipers years ago, they replaced the whole brake under warranty and fixed the fault with a new model. I heard a few reports of friction material coming away from the backing plate on the finned metallic XT pads but within a few months it seemed to have passed. A couple of other things as well but an update or a new model seems to rapidly appear and it's fixed.

SRAM has been having very similar problems persistently since the Avid days on a much larger scale than Shimano's issues. You just need to look at the volume of traffic on the forums to see that there are a lot more disgruntled SRAM users than Shimano ones.

The nature of the problems is different too. With the exception of the failing pads, Shimano's faults have been fairly minor and not show-stoppers. The SRAM locking brake game ruins rides at best and risks your neck at worst! I'm not a Shimano fan-buy but I like products that are not trying to kill me.


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

Mr Pig said:


> Not at all. I agree that Shimano has had issues with their brakes, and to be honest I don't think they've handled them any better than SRAM have, but the problems have not been of the same magnitude as SRAM's.
> 
> Shimano's problems have been very varied and typically sorted out very quickly. They had leaking calipers years ago, they replaced the whole brake under warranty and fixed the fault with a new model. I heard a few reports of friction material coming away from the backing plate on the finned metallic XT pads but within a few months it seemed to have passed. A couple of other things as well but an update or a new model seems to rapidly appear and it's fixed.
> 
> ...


We know you hate SRAM and your opinion is that the only fix for SRAM (even though the rebuild has been proven to work) is to replace them with Shimano because you state it over and over in every thread SRAM thread multiple times. Even when users are not experiencing issues with their SRAM brakes. If the user doesn't want to deal with the warrantying the brakes through SRAM, the rebuild kits are still significantly less expensive than buying Shimano brakes. BTW, I feel like my Shimano brakes are trying to kill me because they have zero modulation.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Rockadile said:


> I love how all the Shimano fanboys forget about the issues Shimano was having with their brakes.


No one is forgetting, but Shimano hasn't had nearly the magnitude of issues like Avid(remember them?) which we all know is why the name changed.

I find the modulation comments funny, Shimano has plenty of modulation it's my left and right index finger


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Rockadile said:


> I feel like my Shimano brakes are trying to kill me because they have zero modulation.


The thing that doesn't have modulation is you. And I don't hate SRAM, I just like reliable products. SRAM make plenty of those, brakes not really one of them though.


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

TwoTone said:


> No one is forgetting, but Shimano hasn't had nearly the magnitude of issues like Avid(remember them?) which we all know is why the name changed.
> 
> I find the modulation comments funny, Shimano has plenty of modulation it's my left and right index finger


This +1.

Recently went riding with a friend in Flagstaff and loaned him my 'old' bike (2017 camber that I have upgraded the hell out of.) It has M8000 XT brakes. He hasn't ridden a bike in probably 15-20 years and while the power of disc brakes kinda surprised him right off the bat, he had no issues riding those brakes pretty hard. I specifically mentioned that people often complain about 'lack of modulation' and he just gave me a funny look and noted that modulation is simply a matter of how much pressure he applies to the lever.

Guess I'm one of those wierdos too since that very same set of brakes, as well as the new M8020 4 piston versions on my Stumpjumper, have yet to try to kill me. Even with 203mm rotors up front on both (180 in the rear.)

Now as for brakes trying to kill me, the Guide R's that came on my stumpy tried it and didn't even have to exhibit the lockup issue (ditched them well before then.) They simply had crap for power and on some steep descents, I had the levers nearly to the bar and still wasn't getting the braking needed. Nearly **** myself one of those those descents =) Meanwhile those same exact trails were much less terrifying on even the much cheaper m8000's.

Would've actually considered some of the even-higher end SRAM models, but their pricetags are simply jokes. $245 per wheel for SRAM Code RSC? Vs. $162 for m8020 or even $185 for Saint...


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Thoreau said:


> I specifically mentioned that people often complain about 'lack of modulation' and he just gave me a funny look and noted that modulation is simply a matter of how much pressure he applies to the lever.


This.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Modulation vs Ease of Modulation.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

I've got XTs, and have ridden bikes with Guides and Hopes. The XTs are grabby on the initial hit, maybe by design as it does make them feel more responsive. No big deal, but at higher speeds in sketchy situations it's noticeable. I'm a clyde, and might be worse for lighter dudes.

Guides had very good modulation, with Hopes being even better. My friend threw his Guides away when the lever locked, and got Hopes.


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

JACKL said:


> I've got XTs, and have ridden bikes with Guides and Hopes. The XTs are grabby on the initial hit, maybe by design as it does make them feel more responsive. No big deal, but at higher speeds in sketchy situations it's noticeable. I'm a clyde, and might be worse for lighter dudes.
> 
> Guides had very good modulation, with Hopes being even better. My friend threw his Guides away when the lever locked, and got Hopes.


Nah, man...we're wrong. We have finger problems. 

I think Nordieboy may have it nailed...ease of modulation.


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

Rockadile said:


> I like my Guides. Yes, SRAM could've handled the situation better. I rebuilt my own and they have way better lever feel than all of my Shimano brakes so, TO ME, they are better. I love how all the Shimano fanboys forget about the issues Shimano was having with their brakes.


I agree and plan on doing the same. Can you give some direction on how you went about rebuilding your Guides? I just started to get some of the slow lever release issue on my rear brake after being fine for almost 2 years. Thinking new pads and a fresh rebuild will take care of it. Fill me in on the process if you have a minute plz....thanx!


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

NH Mtbiker said:


> I agree and plan on doing the same. Can you give some direction on how you went about rebuilding your Guides? I just started to get some of the slow lever release issue on my rear brake after being fine for almost 2 years. Thinking new pads and a fresh rebuild will take care of it. Fill me in on the process if you have a minute plz....thanx!


There are several videos on YouTube. Here's one that I referenced:






In that video, he sands down the existing pistons. I wasn't a fan of that so I bought new pistons. You have a couple options here. One is the lever rebuild kit from SRAM:

https://www.jensonusa.com/SRAM-Guide-RS-Lever-Internals-Parts-Kit

Another option is to use an aluminum piston:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brake-Leve...guide+piston+aluminum&LH_BIN=1&rt=nc&_ipg=200

For the front brake I used the rebuild kit from the first link. When my rear locked up earlier this year I used the aluminum piston. No discernible difference in brake feel between the two levers.

The main tool you'll need is a long set of snap ring pliers. Some else recommended these which I picked up and they worked perfect:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Knipex-481...7258?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c1#viTabs_0

It's a fairly simple process.


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

Thanks for the links Rockadile....I'm on it!
:thumbsup:


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

Quick question, I bought the Guide R levers a couple of years back and didnt have any problems until earlier this month when the back froze up. I wound up buying a new Guide RS lever along with a rebuild kit to ensure I would get back out quickly. It turns out it was good I bought the new lever too because the old R lever appears to have a pressed in pivot as opposed to what you see in the videos (which can be unscrewed and taken apart). Am I missing something or is the Guide R not rebuildable? In that case I will work with a dealer to send back for warranty replacement.


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## Sunkione (Jul 22, 2018)

Couple days ago i ordered same pistons but more expensive and now waiting for them and temporary fix them with sanding piston. My Guide RS are over 2 year old and i bought them in pretty bad condition. Only problem what i have its with expanding brake hoses especially rear one, i already swap them with uberbike kevlar braided but no luck. And no chance for me to ged rid of sram i love them just i need find good hose. Im nearly lb300 full gear up and no lack of power for me.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

backinmysaddle said:


> Quick question, I bought the Guide R levers a couple of years back and didnt have any problems until earlier this month when the back froze up. I wound up buying a new Guide RS lever along with a rebuild kit to ensure I would get back out quickly. It turns out it was good I bought the new lever too because the old R lever appears to have a pressed in pivot as opposed to what you see in the videos (which can be unscrewed and taken apart). Am I missing something or is the Guide R not rebuildable? In that case I will work with a dealer to send back for warranty replacement.


I have Guide R brakes and they were rebuildable. Not sure if there was a difference in Guide R levers but mine are a couple of years old.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> The thing that doesn't have modulation is you.


My new metallic pads arrived. I pulled the rotors, sanded them with a little 600-grit, then ran them through the dishwasher. Then scrubbed the calipers with denatured alcohol and installed the new pads. I ran the bike up and down the street with full braking in a half-assed attempt to bed them in - results were "OK", not overly impressive. I took the bike out on the trails yesterday. About halfway around my favorite 10-mile loop I began noticing this "1-finger" braking that Shimano fans are always raving on about. I liked it. Nice, powerful brakes. I still don't get the modulation argument. They definitely stop the bike with authority but I just don't see "modulation" as an issue in any way.

The mountain bikes I've owned have always had SRAM brakes. Until this recent lever went soft on my EX8 they've been maintenance-free and very effective. My road bike does have SLX brakes but I've never paid any attention to road bike brakes...brakes are not a major component of my road riding. For the all-mountain type riding that I do however, I do like the aggressive braking of these XTs. I'm not sure if they're worth the money to me, but what the hell...it's a hobby. Tinkering is part of it.


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

Really unimpressed with SRAM brakes now... (as if I wasn't already.)

After a couple rides with a set of Guide R's on my 2018 Stumpjumper I swapped them out for some Shimano brakes and stored them. Just didn't like the feel. 

A couple months later, today, I decided to check the serial numbers before selling them to see if I needed to have SRAM warranty anything and save the buyer the hassle since I'm still the original owner. Lo and behold, simply being in my garage was enough to swell the pistons in the levers and lock them up solid... quality.

Serial numbers start with 17T7 and 15T7 just for reference, and came equipped on a brand new 2018 model year bike from Specialized.


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## jbowland (May 7, 2004)

...and my rear brake locked up in the sun yesterday. LBS will have new levers early next week. In the mean while recommended to ride with an ice pack. My LBS has done >30 recalls this season. I would imagine in hotter climates that number is 100% of bikes with SRAM guide brakes.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

It's ridiculous that a 10cent part is not only the root of these failures but is still a problem.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Thoreau said:


> Lo and behold, simply being in my garage was enough to swell the pistons in the levers and lock them up solid... quality.
> 
> Serial numbers start with 17T7 and 15T7 just for reference.


unfortunately a huge batch of V1 brakes (= produced before Week 28 / Year 2017, serial# 28T7 and below) are affected by the sticky lever issue. V2 brakes have revised lever internals.

I just bought an older batch of 2015 Guides for little money and exposed them to direct sunlight before installation, both levers immediately got stuck.

Interestingly my 2016 replacement guides worked fine last summer in direct sunlight but did show the sticky lever again this year on both brakes, so it appears that over time all V1 brakes will get stuck. In fact I've yet to meet somebody who has not run into problems with a V1 guide brake in direct sunlight.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

We should start a pool on what the next name for the brakes will be.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

TwoTone said:


> We should start a pool on what the next name for the brakes will be.


SRAM Endo.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Steel Calf said:


> unfortunately a huge batch of V1 brakes (= produced before Week 28 / Year 2017, serial# 28T7 and below) are affected by the sticky lever issue. V2 brakes have revised lever internals.
> 
> I just bought an older batch of 2015 Guides for little money and exposed them to direct sunlight before installation, both levers immediately got stuck.
> 
> Interestingly my 2016 replacement guides worked fine last summer in direct sunlight but did show the sticky lever again this year on both brakes, so it appears that over time all V1 brakes will get stuck. In fact I've yet to meet somebody who has not run into problems with a V1 guide brake in direct sunlight.


I bought Guide RSCs in May 2015. No problems for years. It gets pretty hot in the summer here and they've been in direct sunlight a lot.

Very recently my front brake has felt notchy... It's not locking up, but something is sticky that was never before. I'm debating between SRAM's rebuild kit and the chinese aluminum pistons. Honestly I am not sure that I would count on tight tolerances for the aluminum pistons based on various small parts, LED flashlights, etc that I've bought direct from china. Sometimes fine, sometimes not.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

ColinL said:


> I would count on tight tolerances for the aluminum pistons based on various small parts, LED flashlights, etc that I've bought direct from China.


Where are SRAM brakes made?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> Where are SRAM brakes made?


Funny.

My point is that the aftermarket piston may or may not be QA tested. Obviously SRAM has an issue, but I don't want to buy a pair of aluminum pistons and wait a month for them just to find they aren't to spec, either.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

ColinL said:


> Funny.
> 
> My point is that the aftermarket piston may or may not be QA tested.


Pretty much like SRAM ones then? Personally, I would try the alloy ones. They are going to be much more stable than plastic so if they work out of the box my bet is they'll keep working.


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

ColinL said:


> Funny.
> 
> My point is that the aftermarket piston may or may not be QA tested. Obviously SRAM has an issue, but I don't want to buy a pair of aluminum pistons and wait a month for them just to find they aren't to spec, either.


My front Guide R lever has been rebuilt using the SRAM rebuild kit. After that rebuild, I discovered the alloy pistons which I ordered a pair of in the event the rear locked up (and the front started locking up again). The rear has since been rebuilt using the alloy piston and there is no discernible difference in lever feel or braking between the two.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

ColinL said:


> Funny.
> 
> My point is that the aftermarket piston may or may not be QA tested. Obviously SRAM has an issue, but I don't want to buy a pair of aluminum pistons and wait a month for them just to find they aren't to spec, either.


Dude, what QA needs to be done? That's laughable given what QA SRAM has done. As for the metal replacement, get a caliper if you're so concerned or don't get them at all?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

thesmokingman said:


> Dude, what QA needs to be done? That's laughable given what QA SRAM has done.


We already know what QA SRAM has done. Not enough...


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

I bought the aluminum pistons from Chicom. There really is nothing to these things. They hold 2 seals and give the lever something to push on. All critical dimensions were identical to the factory plastic, but the offending diameter was slightly undersized...just like I'd expect. 

They went together perfectly and have been functioning on my DH bike since May.

ac


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

^^Nice. I will probably order two for some Guide R's that came on a new old stock bike I have coming. I know they are going to seize up on me and I'd rather avoid that instead of leaving it up to chance.


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## BillyBicycle (Jul 4, 2016)

avc8130 said:


> I bought the aluminum pistons from Chicom. There really is nothing to these things. They hold 2 seals and give the lever something to push on. All critical dimensions were identical to the factory plastic, but the offending diameter was slightly undersized...just like I'd expect.
> 
> They went together perfectly and have been functioning on my DH bike since May.
> 
> ac


link to where I can get these? I have a new set of Guide R's that are defective and need a rebuild.

Thanks


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## 410sprint (Oct 19, 2012)

*Recent Board meeting at Shimano....
*


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

Anger said:


> link to where I can get these? I have a new set of Guide R's that are defective and need a rebuild.
> 
> Thanks


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brake-Leve...ssembly-for-sram-GUIDE-Level-db5/223062708212


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

I am now really pissed to see how prevalent this is and that the first two shops I went to didnt give me the real answer, which is that SRAM will get you a replacement pair fast and that if you go to the right store they will have a bin of them to give you right then and there. I wasted money buying a single replacement lever to get back on the trails. That shop, Universal Cycles, should have taken better care of me instead of taking my money and told me how easy and fast it should be to get a free replacement pair of levers.


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

backinmysaddle said:


> I am now really pissed to see how prevalent this is and that the first two shops I went to didnt give me the real answer, which is that SRAM will get you a replacement pair fast and that if you go to the right store they will have a bin of them to give you right then and there. I wasted money buying a single replacement lever to get back on the trails. That shop, Universal Cycles, should have taken better care of me instead of taking my money and told me how easy and fast it should be to get a free replacement pair of levers.


Makes me appreciate my local shop more and more. I walked in, brakeset in a box, and was instantly talking to the head shop mechanic. Started off saying "Three words: 
sram guide.... heat..." and he instantly knew what was going on and within a couple minutes I was back out the door with a repair order ticket in hand, and the shop is getting them warrantied out for me.

Any shop that isn't very aware of the issue is either living in a bubble, or acutely incompetent.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

Thoreau said:


> Really unimpressed with SRAM brakes now... (as if I wasn't already.)
> 
> After a couple rides with a set of Guide R's on my 2018 Stumpjumper I swapped them out for some Shimano brakes and stored them. Just didn't like the feel.
> 
> A couple months later, today, I decided to check the serial numbers before selling them to see if I needed to have SRAM warranty anything and save the buyer the hassle since I'm still the original owner. Lo and behold, simply being in my garage was enough to swell the pistons in the levers and lock them up solid... quality.


That's almost as bad as my new ride that arrived with the rear brake frozen. Shakes head... I have some metal plungers on order so I had already planned to replace the crap plastic but this is just hilarious.


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## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

thesmokingman said:


> That's almost as bad as my new ride that arrived with the rear brake frozen. Shakes head... I have some metal plungers on order so I had already planned to replace the crap plastic but this is just hilarious.


I stayed near the beginning of another SRAM brake disaster thread that I test rode bikes this June (2018) that had the locking in the heat problem. I didn't bother to look at all the serial numbers and date codes of bikes and brakes I didn't buy, but there are defective units being sold right now. The one bike I did look at the date on was Nov 17. It isn't over until it is over, and the widespread SRAM brake problems aren't over. They may never be. Next we will hear it was a "small batch" again. Lol.

As far as the complaints about Shimano brakes, I get it. They aren't perfect. The initial grab is weird to anyone not used to it. The do occasionally leak, and lever parts are not available separately, and pistons can crack. Eventually they wear out. But I have a pretty big sample size, and they are just not produced in a massively defective state over and over. Shimano isn't the end all be all either, but in my case there are no more SRAM brakes for me.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

In retrospect, I am so pissed about this and that SRAM continued to sell a defective product for so long that I went to the CPSC website and filed an incident report with details about how long this problem has been known and how dangerous it can be. No guarantees it will do anything, but if everyone on this thread filed a report, I bet SRAM would at least get an inquiry from the CPSC on this.
https://www.saferproducts.gov/


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

To be clear, we should be looking for serial 29T7 or later to be on the safe side?


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## tw!stedAxle (Aug 17, 2017)

backinmysaddle said:


> In retrospect, I am so pissed about this and that SRAM continued to sell a defective product for so long that I went to the CPSC website and filed an incident report with details about how long this problem has been known and how dangerous it can be. No guarantees it will do anything, but if everyone on this thread filed a report, I bet SRAM would at least get an inquiry from the CPSC on this.
> https://www.saferproducts.gov/


^ I agree with this guy, it got me pretty pissed as well.

I didn't even know about lever issue until my front wheel disturbingly locked up, I was sent a "revised" lever under warranty.

Long story short - There needs to be a safety recall to inform people who may not know.

In the end I bought a set of XT's and personally wouldn't touch RSC's again after my experience.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

lol, I posted too soon. The bike ships with the front rotor not mounted. When I went to pull the pad separator from the front caliper, it too was locked! In both cases I had to loosen the hoses just to release the calipers. Both levers are frozen. smh


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

thesmokingman said:


> lol, I posted too soon. The bike ships with the front rotor not mounted. When I went to pull the pad separator from the front caliper, it too was locked! In both cases I had to loosen the hoses just to release the calipers. Both levers are frozen. smh


Some people recommended cooling the levers with ice or through some other method to unbind the caliper.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Rockadile said:


> Some people recommended cooling the levers with ice or through some other method to unbind the caliper.


Do SRAM sell an ice carrier for this?


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## chucko58 (Aug 4, 2006)

Oh boy. I just bought a pair of new old stock (gen 1) Guide RS brakes from an online brick & mortar shop. Right out of the box the lever for the rear brake won't return. Thanks for the info. I'm pursuing this with the dealer.


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## Oxidizer (Oct 27, 2015)

^I suggest taking them to your LBS. Ask them to do the warranty repair. You shouldn't be charged either. That was my experience with a set of 2-yr old Guide RS's.

I recently bought a heavily discounted set of Guide Ultimates from my LBS. Upon purchase I asked the LBS about the brake issue even though the brakes worked fine. My LBS mechanic offered to do the lever swap under warranty, without question, and free of charge. Both sets of Guides are working great now.


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## Long_time_gone (Nov 10, 2017)

Help please I’ve lost a brake banjo bolt from my Sram Guide RSC B1 Caliper. Can anyone tell me the thread for the bolt so I can order. 
I can find a Sram hardware kit but this is £20. 
Thanks


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

scrolling through the BRAIN recall articles and SRAM Has recalled the linear pull Avid brakes. I suppose the replacement levers for the Guides are enough?

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/rec...-brakes-because-rivet-can-loosen#.W2dWlKQpCEc

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

Thoreau said:


> Really unimpressed with SRAM brakes now... (as if I wasn't already.)
> 
> After a couple rides with a set of Guide R's on my 2018 Stumpjumper I swapped them out for some Shimano brakes and stored them. Just didn't like the feel.
> 
> ...


Well, wishful thinking didn't pan out. I was hoping for a shiny new set in a box, maybe with RSC levers as SRAMs way of saying 'we ****ed up, so heres something for your troubles.' Unfortuantely, as predicted by my LBS, there's no shortage of R parts (gee, i wonder why?) in SRAMs inventory.

But I did get them back. Not totally sure if the levers are the same, just with new internals (they look brand new, but they were brand new when I submitted them for warranty anyway.) The calipers didn't change (same serial numbers.) Either way, I set them on my dash for the drive home and let them bake in the AZ sun for a good 20-30 minutes. Prior to dropping them off, it took all of 5 minutes of that treatment to start the piston swelling, but they made it home without any signs of the issue.

Probably gonna just sell them since I can't see choosing Guide R over the m8000 or m8020 brakesets on my two bikes.


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## Brian06 (Jul 12, 2006)

Just adding my personal experience with SRAM brakes.

I brought in my 2015 SRAM Guide R brakes affected by the lever not returning issue and they were replaced for the cost of a bleed (front and rear).

Then one week later I brought in my 2017 SRAM Level TL brakes also affected by the lever not returning issue and they were also replaced for the cost of a bleed (front and rear).

Overall, I am not impressed that it cost me to have them replaced under warranty but I am happy that I wasn't left with useless brakes. The new levers seem to be working great.


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## greginaz (Oct 14, 2008)

My Guide RS levers locked up too. Took them down to my lbs Bike Masters, and they swapped them out for me under warranty. They had a 2 page list going of all the ones they have replaced just this year alone. I’m in Phoenix right near SoMo, so it gets warm. Lol.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

I'm in the process of swapping metal plungers in but ran into a problem. The plastic plungers were frozen tight, and I didn't want to pound them out. Running out of ideas I threw them into the freezer lol. In 5 minutes they popped out on their own. Nice job SRAM!


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## Flawless Cowboy (Sep 7, 2015)

How did the metal piston turn out? I have a Guide RSC lever that putting in a gen2 piston still has it sticking. Debating trying a metal piston or just buying a whole new lever assembly. Or may trying to sand the piston that is in there now...

I also have a set of Guide RS that need the piston's replaced so perhaps I shall try the metal pistons there. I have already replaced one piston in my wife's Guide R. I have a set of DB5s on my fat bike that are the only set that haven't required replacing the internals. Yet.

Wish I had money for Hayes' Dominion...

-Nate



thesmokingman said:


> I'm in the process of swapping metal plungers in but ran into a problem. The plastic plungers were frozen tight, and I didn't want to pound them out. Running out of ideas I threw them into the freezer lol. In 5 minutes they popped out on their own. Nice job SRAM!


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

Flawless Cowboy said:


> How did the metal piston turn out? I have a Guide RSC lever that putting in a gen2 piston still has it sticking. Debating trying a metal piston or just buying a whole new lever assembly. Or may trying to sand the piston that is in there now...
> 
> I also have a set of Guide RS that need the piston's replaced so perhaps I shall try the metal pistons there. I have already replaced one piston in my wife's Guide R. I have a set of DB5s on my fat bike that are the only set that haven't required replacing the internals. Yet.
> 
> ...


I did the swap but have not rebleed yet. Actually I have to redo the cabling and wait on a rotor, etc etc. The key advantage to the metal part is that it does not deform so that should be the end the stuck issue. The set I got of ebay also came with seals, so I have a spare set now.


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## avc8130 (Jul 9, 2012)

I've been using the metal lever pistons all summer in my DH bike's Guides. No issues.


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

I, too, have been running the aluminum piston since early spring and have had zero issues.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Flawless Cowboy said:


> How did the metal piston turn out? I have a Guide RSC lever that putting in a gen2 piston still has it sticking. Debating trying a metal piston or just buying a whole new lever assembly. Or may trying to sand the piston that is in there now...
> 
> I also have a set of Guide RS that need the piston's replaced so perhaps I shall try the metal pistons there. I have already replaced one piston in my wife's Guide R. I have a set of DB5s on my fat bike that are the only set that haven't required replacing the internals. Yet.
> 
> ...


Nate, I actually just bought a set of Hayes Dominion but I'd rather talk about that in the existing thread rather than here. The one thing I will say is that the dominion has an aluminum piston in the lever.

I'm going to rebuild my guide rsc but can't wait weeks for the pistons to arrive from China.

I noticed that several eBay sellers, but not all, sell a shorter piston for guide rsc (and I assume guide ultimate) whereas everything else uses a longer piston. Make sure you get the right one.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## Flawless Cowboy (Sep 7, 2015)

Good to know about the aluminum pistons working well!

I ended up removing the seals from the new piston and sanding it down - seems to work a treat. If it is successful, I may just sand the pistons in the spare RS levers I have instead of buying a new kit. Or just order the aluminum pistons, especially with it seeming that the internal kits have gone up in price. Choices.

-Nate


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## stm32disco (Jun 7, 2017)

farfromovin said:


> To be clear, we should be looking for serial 29T7 or later to be on the safe side?


I've been looking for this information also. I need to get a set of brakes for a new build. I really like the (fixed) Guide Rs on my current bike, but I'm not buying any new SRAM unless I know I won't encounter this problem.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

I got a note from the CPSC that they had forwarded my complaint on to SRAM (I had checked a box that I consented to that being done) about 3 weeks ago while on vacation in Spain. Somewhat ironically, I was renting a Trek bike with SRAM Guides on it and guess what, they froze up on a hot day and I needed to ice them to get them to work again. Holy crap.
Anyway, a few days later I got a note from SRAM asking about my injuries. I wrote back upon my return from vacation flaming them and suggesting the skin I lost should be the least of their concerns. I highlighted that I had out of pocket expenses for a new lever and a rebuild kit, both from their retailers who should have helped me get free replacement levers. Nothing back from them yet. It's not a big a deal for me to throw these out and move to some other brand... I've an all SRAM rider and all their high end stuff. They are about to lose a good customer. What a bunch of complete morons.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

Latest from SRAM... 
please send receipts and serial number for original lever and we will reimburse for the new lever you had to buy at retail cost.

I guess if you want fair resolution, filing a CPSC complaint is the way to go.


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## edeltoaster (Sep 5, 2018)

Were can I find the serial number of my Guide Rs? Got a new YT Jeffsy 27 AL 2018 in May, I hope they are fine? Actually really like them but the feeling in the gut is not a good one when one reads about all those problems.


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## CORTH (May 13, 2015)

Serial number is on the caliper. I suspect your 2018 model bike is not affected.


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## acedeuce802 (Jun 30, 2017)

CORTH said:


> Serial number is on the caliper. I suspect your 2018 model bike is not affected.


Unfortunately my brakes from a 2018 Trek Slash were still the old part number. Definitely worth it to check.


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

acedeuce802 said:


> Unfortunately my brakes from a 2018 Trek Slash were still the old part number. Definitely worth it to check.


2018 specialized stumpjumper was also affected.

If high volume brands like trek and specialized aren't immune, the smaller niche brands definitely aren't.


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## edeltoaster (Sep 5, 2018)

38T7*. I guess it's ascending so I should be fine, right?


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

I just wanted to say that I have since found a local store (Mountainview Cycles in Hood River) that gave me the honest scoop about this problem, their interaction with SRAM and their dismay that many bike stores know full well about this problem but dont tell customers what they are entitled to or quite frankly how quickly SRAM will get you a new set of levers if the store doesnt have a box of them lying around. I guess I am as pissed at the LBSes that passed me off or tried to sell me new brakes (not just levers mind you). This entire thing is a black eye on an industry that needs to generate confidence among consumers as it increasingly heads to the five figures for a well kitted carbon FS bike.


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## edeltoaster (Sep 5, 2018)

edeltoaster said:


> 38T7*. I guess it's ascending so I should be fine, right?


Got it, week 38 in 2017 so I'm fine (at least with that known problem).


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

edeltoaster said:


> Got it, week 38 in 2017 so I'm fine (at least with that known problem).


That's when I got my Guide Ultimates and they've been great honestly (but I just swapped on Saints for a little more oomph).
It's funny, or maybe sad, but I think SRAM makes some damn good brakes with this issue aside. I mean the Guides have power and modulation to spare, the new Code lineup gets rave reviews, and the Levels are a light XC setup. Despite that, I've asked my LBS's which brakes they'd recommend and it's Shimano 8 days a week. SRAM got a huge black eye here and it'll take a long time to recover, even with all the Eagle/Guide bundling OEM's have been doing.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

backinmysaddle said:


> I just wanted to say that I have since found a local store (Mountainview Cycles in Hood River) that gave me the honest scoop about this problem, their interaction with SRAM and their dismay that many bike stores know full well about this problem but dont tell customers what they are entitled to or quite frankly how quickly SRAM will get you a new set of levers if the store doesnt have a box of them lying around. I guess I am as pissed at the LBSes that passed me off or tried to sell me new brakes (not just levers mind you). This entire thing is a black eye on an industry that needs to generate confidence among consumers as it increasingly heads to the five figures for a well kitted carbon FS bike.


I guess this is part of the reason I've never especially had a problem with Avid/SRAM/Rockshox/Quark/Whoever. EVERY time I've taken my bike to my LBS with a legit problem with one of these products - even when I was one of the first people to HAVE the sticking lever - SRAM put parts in the mail fast, and my shop took care of me. I think the people having problems getting this stuff serviced is ALL down to the shop.


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

Cotharyus said:


> I guess this is part of the reason I've never especially had a problem with Avid/SRAM/Rockshox/Quark/Whoever. EVERY time I've taken my bike to my LBS with a legit problem with one of these products - even when I was one of the first people to HAVE the sticking lever - SRAM put parts in the mail fast, and my shop took care of me. I think the people having problems getting this stuff serviced is ALL down to the shop.


While these cases DO clearly highlight the issue of lazy/incompetent/greedy/just-plain-shitty local shops, the issue is definitely NOT 'all' down to the shop. The issue is that the manufacturer put out a bad product. Poor service from shops is secondary, and is only really a contributing factor because SRAM refuses to deal directly with the customers to whom they are selling shitty products.

A good LBS service is an entirely different matter, and while it's always great to see, it's really just masking SRAMs screw-ups.

That said, I too have had a 100% success rate thanks to my shop. I've also only had one incident to deal with. Despite the shop making short work of resolving the faulty Guide R issue, I still consider it a major black mark for SRAM. SRAM has known about this issue for long enough that it should've never even made it onto a 2018 model year bike from a high volume bike brand (or any.) When the defective units DID make it to a production bike, SRAM could have easily been proactive and started reaching out to the brands they've sold to for OEM installations, who in turn can easily track down and contact most of their customers to effect a recall/repair process.

This isn't some issue of paint chipping because of a bad prep in a batch of frames, or stitching coming loose on a saddle. This is a critical flaw in one of the most crucial systems on a bike and directly affects safety. There's no excuse for how SRAM has handled this.

Mistakes happen, bad products make it to market from even the best manufacturers. It's how they handle it that says everything the consumer needs to know.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Thoreau said:


> SRAM has known about this issue for long enough that it should've never even made it onto a 2018 model year bike from a high volume bike brand (or any.) When the defective units DID make it to a production bike, SRAM could have easily been proactive and started reaching out to the brands they've sold to for OEM installations, who in turn can easily track down and contact most of their customers to effect a recall/repair process.
> 
> This isn't some issue of paint chipping because of a bad prep in a batch of frames, or stitching coming loose on a saddle. This is a critical flaw in one of the most crucial systems on a bike and directly affects safety. There's no excuse for how SRAM has handled this.
> 
> Mistakes happen, bad products make it to market from even the best manufacturers. It's how they handle it that says everything the consumer needs to know.


This thread was opened in early 2016 and people were reporting issues in other threads on MTBR before that, back into 2015. The Guide R, RS and RSC launched in late 2014.

We're talking about more than 3 years of failures on a large scale. Based on that ridiculously long timeline, I have a real concern that either the design is flawed, or that sram is unable to produce parts with correct tolerances so that the issue is permanently corrected, or perhaps both.

I want to ride right now, so I switched brakes. When the aftermarket aluminum pistons finally arrive from China, I'll rebuild my Guide RSC and they will go to another bike amongst my family and friends.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Cotharyus said:


> I guess this is part of the reason I've never especially had a problem with Avid/SRAM/Rockshox/Quark/Whoever. EVERY time I've taken my bike to my LBS with a legit problem with one of these products - even when I was one of the first people to HAVE the sticking lever - SRAM put parts in the mail fast, and my shop took care of me. I think the people having problems getting this stuff serviced is ALL down to the shop.


Which brings me to my point on one of the reasons I like Shimano- no LBS variables. Call Shimano directly.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Damn, took a newbie mtb’er friend of mine for an easy ride today and it was ruined cause his Guide R’s started locking up in the sun. I thought he just had a warped rotor when we started riding but then he started dragging his back tire! I told him to contact the LBS and they’ll replace the brakes for free. Well, the shop quoted him $30 to R&R his brakes with new ones, quite reasonable I think.
This is the first time I’ve seen the issue in action but I told him be thankful he wasn’t headed down some steep cliff side singletrack and his front locked.


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## funnyjr (Oct 31, 2009)

Yep. My buddy who’s also a newbie has same problem. Sram brakes that don’t work, a reverb dropper that failed, ... he’s quite upset and frustrated as he splurged on a 5K + bike he thought was going to be quality and awesome but was not. The LBS instead of sending for warranty attempted brake bleed and pumping more air in seatpost. Wasted his riding time as obviously the fixes they did didn’t work and now they are still in denial and scratching their heads. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fat-in-Fundy (Feb 21, 2015)

Well figured I didn't have to worry about this in Canada, thought it was more of a problem down South where the Temps are a little more extreme in the summer. My Guide R's started to freeze up this summer and are now only usuable for evening rides after the temp drops, pretty frustrating for sure.
My question now is Repair or Replace?
I hate throwing good money after bad so I'm wondering if the fix is worth it or if I should just get a different set, mayby TRP Quadiem?


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

Fat-in-Fundy said:


> Well figured I didn't have to worry about this in Canada, thought it was more of a problem down South where the Temps are a little more extreme in the summer. My Guide R's started to freeze up this summer and are now only usuable for evening rides after the temp drops, pretty frustrating for sure.
> My question now is Repair or Replace?
> I hate throwing good money after bad so I'm wondering if the fix is worth it or if I should just get a different set, mayby TRP Quadiem?


The decision was easy for me. The repair is $20 if you buy the 2 aluminum pistons plus a little bit of your time to replace the pistons. A full on brake replacement is at least 10 times that cost.


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

Rockadile said:


> The decision was easy for me. The repair is $20 if you buy the 2 aluminum pistons plus a little bit of your time to replace the pistons. A full on brake replacement is at least 10 times that cost.


Repair is free by way of warranty service.

That said, sram couldve paid me to repair them and id still be running different brakes as i am now. I find that stopping is a fairly crucial capability and dont trust sram to pull that off safely.


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## RWGreen (Dec 5, 2004)

Jumping into this 2 year old thread... my guide ultimates developed same issue. Noticed reach and throw seemed a bit off for a couple rides, and then last week they were stuck so close that they were almost unrideable. Bring em inside - they're fine, back out in the sun, nope. Bought in 2017 from Universal... they were great. Sent them back, will be getting new levers.


Question that I either didn't see, or don't remember seeing - anyone that got them replaced, any more issues after that, or are they fine?


Also - bike mags always rave about these brakes. Given how pervasive the issue seems to be, odd this has never been mentioned.


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

RWGreen said:


> Jumping into this 2 year old thread... my guide ultimates developed same issue. Noticed reach and throw seemed a bit off for a couple rides, and then last week they were stuck so close that they were almost unrideable. Bring em inside - they're fine, back out in the sun, nope. Bought in 2017 from Universal... they were great. Sent them back, will be getting new levers.
> 
> Question that I either didn't see, or don't remember seeing - anyone that got them replaced, any more issues after that, or are they fine?
> 
> Also - bike mags always rave about these brakes. Given how pervasive the issue seems to be, odd this has never been mentioned.


I had New levers put on my guides in the spring and have been fine since. I like the feel of these brakes so I'm sticking with them.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

RWGreen said:


> Also - bike mags always rave about these brakes. Given how pervasive the issue seems to be, odd this has never been mentioned.


Magazines are more or less funded by manufacture advertising. You will never see them saying that a product from a major advertiser is terrible, ever. You can't trust their opinion on anything.


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

RWGreen said:


> Question that I either didn't see, or don't remember seeing - anyone that got them replaced, any more issues after that, or are they fine?


I have not heard of the problem recurring Also, I have not had a problem in the year since I've rebuilt my lever. If it did come back, that'd be grounds for ditching them no matter how much I like them.


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## Fat-in-Fundy (Feb 21, 2015)

I didn't have much luck with the warranty repair at my LBS, they said they just bleed the brakes, weren't interested in returning the levers. I have little patience for arguing so I just ordered the SRAM Guide lever kit and a bleed kit from Jenson, hopefully the new kit will take care of the problem.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Finally bit the bullet and ordered some Hayes Dominion A4 brakes to replace my Guide RSC's. Currently the Guides are working well on their second warranty replacement levers (both front and rear replaced twice) and hopefully they stay that way in storage for when I sell the bike.


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

Time to find a new LBS.


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## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

sptimmy43 said:


> Time to find a new LBS.


Agreed. My Guide R levers had the problem. LBS got Sram to warranty them and they also upgraded to RS and LBS changed em out no charge. I haven't had a problem since then a couple of years ago.


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## Fat-in-Fundy (Feb 21, 2015)

sptimmy43 said:


> Time to find a new LBS.


Agreed, stopped in to another shop that's about 2 hours away and they were well aware of the problem and send theirs in for the warranty no charge, unfortunately I didn't buy my bike at their shop, lesson learned! Anyway new lever kit from Jenson is due to arrive tommorow so it's a DIY project, less down time anyway!


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

Why is it that there's a recall in the USA of the Ohlins for on Spec's, but not of these brakes???


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

PuddleDuck said:


> Why is it that there's a recall in the USA of the Ohlins for on Spec's, but not of these brakes???


Good point.


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

Fat-in-Fundy said:


> Agreed, stopped in to another shop that's about 2 hours away and they were well aware of the problem and send theirs in for the warranty no charge, unfortunately I didn't buy my bike at their shop, lesson learned! Anyway new lever kit from Jenson is due to arrive tommorow so it's a DIY project, less down time anyway!


It shouldn't matter if you bought the bike there or not. Warranty is warranty. The shop should take care of it...eager to earn your future business.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

sptimmy43 said:


> It shouldn't matter if you bought the bike there or not. Warranty is warranty. *The shop should take care of it...eager to earn your future business.*


True that! But the reality is most shops suck. This whole policy of sram bites anyways, must go thru a LBS is bs unlike Shimano.


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## Fat-in-Fundy (Feb 21, 2015)

sptimmy43 said:


> It shouldn't matter if you bought the bike there or not. Warranty is warranty. The shop should take care of it...eager to earn your future business.


Agreed, to be fair the second shop did offer to do the warranty but I'd have to pay the shipping as well as the bleed, add that to the cost of traveling to and from the store and it was cheaper to just do it myself. UPS brought the parts to my door (thanks Jenson) and I installed the kit today. Back in business with only a few hours downtime and now I have a bleed kit and spare parts as a bonus! Quick test ride and they seem to be back to normal.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

Man, I am so sick of sram and their crap quality. The pistons in my 4 pots are sticking and the spring in the levers is too weak. Now I gotta pull the crap apart and stretch the spring out to compensate. And push the 4 pot pistons out a lil bit and clean then lube them. As if the levers weren't enough trouble!

I find myself tempted to junk them and just get XT 4 pots and call it a day.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

Fat-in-Fundy said:


> Agreed, to be fair the second shop did offer to do the warranty but I'd have to pay the shipping as well as the bleed, add that to the cost of traveling to and from the store and it was cheaper to just do it myself. UPS brought the parts to my door (thanks Jenson) and I installed the kit today. Back in business with only a few hours downtime and now I have a bleed kit and spare parts as a bonus! Quick test ride and they seem to be back to normal.


It's a mix of SRAM not directing stores to a more customer-friendly process, which should be if you just want a pair of new levers then we'll get them to you somehow, including shipping them directly to you. Bigger shops should have all been given stock to handle, but above all SRAM should have been clear: if you are a SRAM retailer and someone comes in with this problem and the serial #s are within range, take care of them somehow, go the extra mile, even if it means someone eats $15 in shipping. The number of stores I went to that simply don't say squat means either SRAM hasnt told them anything or the store is just lazy. But I put the lion's share of the blame on SRAM as it is their defective product.


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

backinmysaddle said:


> It's a mix of SRAM not directing stores to a more customer-friendly process, which should be if you just want a pair of new levers then we'll get them to you somehow, including shipping them directly to you. Bigger shops should have all been given stock to handle, but above all SRAM should have been clear: if you are a SRAM retailer and someone comes in with this problem and the serial #s are within range, take care of them somehow, go the extra mile, even if it means someone eats $15 in shipping. The number of stores I went to that simply don't say squat means either SRAM hasnt told them anything or the store is just lazy. But I put the lion's share of the blame on SRAM as it is their defective product.


My local shop operates exactly as described. If you go in with affected brakes within the serial number range they replace the levers and bleed them free of charge regardless of whether or not you bought the bike there. This shop is dominating while others in the area are closing. Coincidence? I think not!


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

sptimmy43 said:


> My local shop operates exactly as described. If you go in with affected brakes within the serial number range they replace the levers and bleed them free of charge regardless of whether or not you bought the bike there. This shop is dominating while others in the area are closing. Coincidence? I think not!


Same story here. One local shop was charging me for shipping and labor, along with requiring proof of purchase receipts, etc. The shop that I use exclusively now, took these brakes, no questions. When SRAM didn't have guide RS to replace mine, the local shop argued for upgraded RSC levers, which I received. They were even going to reinstall the brakes on a bike I didn't buy there for free, internal routing included if it was needed. The other shop charges me for free warranty work and tries to time and time again sell me **** they have in stock that I don't want, and won't work.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

thesmokingman said:


> Man, I am so sick of sram and their crap quality. The pistons in my 4 pots are sticking and the spring in the levers is too weak. Now I gotta pull the crap apart and stretch the spring out to compensate. And push the 4 pot pistons out a lil bit and clean then lube them. As if the levers weren't enough trouble!
> 
> I find myself tempted to junk them and just get XT 4 pots and call it a day.


Updating this post. I managed to do the fronts but ended up having to crack open the caliper. There was a bit of gunk or black specs in the pots. The pistons kept smacking the pot walls leaving grey lines on the piston walls. I used pliers and pulled the pistons out, cleaned them up in iso, and buffed the pistons with 800-1k grit. I extracted the seals, cleaned them in iso. I dipped both halves of the caliper iso and shook them around and wiped them down. I dipped the pistons and seals in some Super Blue, and reassembled the seals and pistons. I used a very small coat of pm600 grease before screwing the two halves of the calipers back together. Once that was done, the final bleed.

Usually overnight the levers would get hard. This morning I checked the front brakes before heading out and yay, the front lever was not stiff. Now to do the rears...

Freaking Sram, seriously wtf man! The brakes I've been dealing with are actually new, from a closeout bike that had been sitting a while.


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## mmmiles (Jun 22, 2018)

thesmokingman said:


> Updating this post. I managed to do the fronts but ended up having to crack open the caliper. There was a bit of gunk or black specs in the pots. The pistons kept smacking the pot walls leaving grey lines on the piston walls. I used pliers and pulled the pistons out, cleaned them up in iso, and buffed the pistons with 800-1k grit. I extracted the seals, cleaned them in iso. I dipped both halves of the caliper iso and shook them around and wiped them down. I dipped the pistons and seals in some Super Blue, and reassembled the seals and pistons. I used a very small coat of pm600 grease before screwing the two halves of the calipers back together. Once that was done, the final bleed.
> 
> Usually overnight the levers would get hard. This morning I checked the front brakes before heading out and yay, the front lever was not stiff. Now to do the rears...
> 
> Freaking Sram, seriously wtf man! The brakes I've been dealing with are actually new, from a closeout bike that had been sitting a while.


I'd like to get a threat started on the Guide pistons and get your thoughts... I took similar steps with my Guide callipers, it is ridiculous how jammed the pistons get, and their sides get carved up, don't retract, retract unevenly.

I spent some time on the front caliper (sanding sharp edges in the cylinder) and it appears to be quite smooth now, but the rear (which I have not touched) is a disaster.

It does feel like these left the factory unfinished.


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## jbowland (May 7, 2004)

FWIF the pistons on my calipers get corrosion and I have to clean them and "exercise" them a couple of times a year to ensure they retract evenly. The fronts on my bike were getting almost no action from one side. The rears seem to be doing fine. This is a problem I've never had with my Shimano brakes.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

THis just happened to my Code brakes on my 2018 Specialized Enduro. Totally ridiculous they way they act at SRAM and this is not the first time I have tried to deal with them. I called a shop and they told me the best thing I could do would be to cut my losses and go Shimano. I think I will contact the CPSC and see what happens, anyone else want to report to them or have you already? This isn't just annoying, its dangerous and its been happening for years now. https://www.cpsc.gov/


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## EKhatch (Oct 22, 2018)

Rockadile said:


> The decision was easy for me. The repair is $20 if you buy the 2 aluminum pistons plus a little bit of your time to replace the pistons. A full on brake replacement is at least 10 times that cost.


Where did you find a rebuild kit with aluminum pistons? I am thinking about buying a set of these brakes that are new but second hand and figured I would just rebuild them before using them but can only find a kit with the plastic/nylon piston/plunger.

Thanks

EDIT: Never mind. I guess the ones I might be getting already have the newer lever design with the machined piston.


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## jusutus (Oct 4, 2017)

link1896 said:


> Wind the contact adjuster barrel all the way in, then put 4.5 turns into the pushrod (starting with it fully tight), it's got about 5 turns before it falls out.


Cheers for this tip, replaced the pistons a moment ago without the special tool. Now hoping they actually work


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## LarrybNZ (Nov 18, 2018)

My son has a 2019 Remedy 8 and his front brake lever was horribly slow to return to the point it no longer fully returned. His rear brake lever was also slightly slow to return but no where as bad as the front. I have a 2019 Slash 8 and so far no issues on mine altho mine does appear to have newer serial numbers than his.
My son is totally bummed as he has a big ride this weekend and has to rent a bike now.
Returning complete front and rear brake system to bike shop to be sent back to SRAM.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

^^^Bummer. 2019 brakes should certainly have the new levers which have been out for a number of years now so really shouldn't be experiencing this problem. For the older brakes with the known issue, SRAM has been sending out replacement levers irrespective of how long ago they were purchased or whether the owner was the original purchaser. All that was required was the serial number from the bottom of the brake calipers (submitted by an authorized dealer). It'll be interesting to find out what's going on with your son's brakes and what SRAM does about it.


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## LarrybNZ (Nov 18, 2018)

SRAM sent him new levers, hoses and calipers (no pads). Took about a week and a half from the time the bike shop sent them back until the new ones arrive. So far they are working great. My Guide brakes on my Slash are still working great with no issues so hopefully his issues are resolved with the new brakes.


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## goldenhawk (Apr 26, 2015)

Just had the front Guide R brake lever lock up on me during a ride in the warm afternoon temps. This is on a 2018 Stumpjumper. The LBS I bought the bike from knew about the problem and told me that the Guide brake lever would be replaced for free should the problem occur. Sure enough, they did just that late this afternoon.the LBS also told me to keep an eye out on the brake lever for the rear to see if that one also needs to be replaced.

One would think that the brake lever problem would have been taken care of on a 2018 bike.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

goldenhawk said:


> One would think that the brake lever problem would have been taken care of on a 2018 bike.


You would think, wouldn't you? My 2018 Enduro with Codes did the same.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

Hey guys. I'd been busy lately and haven't ridden in a month. I went out to check the bike today and what do you know? The levers were not locked up. They were a lil slow to react but after a couple pulls, all was good. I'm using the metal plungers with sram seals. With the original plastic plungers, the levers would have surely been frozen.


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## A-Y (Aug 22, 2005)

Same problem on my 2017 Bronson (Guide R). Brakes work fine 10C and under but once it gets up to 20C or higher, I get the slow return issue, and the warmer, the slower. My brakes are out of warranty but I called my LBS anyway. They contacted sram on my behalf and lo and behold Sram has agreed to cover warranty inspection and service.


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## Cycloid (Apr 11, 2016)

*Hack for dealing with Guide RS Levers not returning*

Forgive me if this has been presented before; I haven't had time to read this thread.

For Guide RS levers out of warrant that not returning, here is a pretty effective practical solution I came up with.

Wrap white cotton towel strips two or three times around the lever housing, and secure with a zip tie. If weather conditions are causing the levers to stick a bit, thoroughly wet the cotton. The white color, plus evaporative cooling, keep the housings cool and ameliorate sticking.

It's a bit annoying to have to resort to this, but far less annoying than having the brakes clamp shut.

Hope this helps you as much as it's helped me.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Cycloid said:


> Forgive me if this has been presented before; I haven't had time to read this thread.
> 
> For Guide RS levers out of warrant that not returning, here is a pretty effective practical solution I came up with.
> 
> ...


Yes, but don't waste water you may need for hydration.

Urinate on them.


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

Moe Ped said:


> Yes, but don't waste water you may need for hydration.
> 
> Urinate on them.


Maybe SRAM will come out with a refrigerated cooling unit to fix the problem. haha

Do all SRAM brakes STILL have this problem? I have my eye on the G2 Ultimate. Waste of money?


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## M-T (Dec 15, 2013)

Getting around to doing something about my Guide RSC. Serial nos are starting 12T5, so def Gen 1. They are about 4 years old, but I only experienced the dreaded sticking last year, dumped water on them to get by.

What should my expectations be from SRAM themselves? I tried a LBS who told me they called SRAM, who won't do anything under warranty - is that normal? I see various posts here from people saying they are still getting SRAM to change them - but are the units as old - mine are effectively out of warranty?

(then the LBS will charge me for the work and kit on top of it; so I see what their game is..)

Re the rebuild kit, are the chinese alu pistons I see better than the Gen 2 rebuild ones, or should I be indifferent?

TIA for any advice.


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## JDUBku (Aug 27, 2015)

Scottyman said:


> Maybe SRAM will come out with a refrigerated cooling unit to fix the problem. haha
> 
> Do all SRAM brakes STILL have this problem? I have my eye on the G2 Ultimate. Waste of money?


I had the Guide RSC's, Worked perfectly, LOVED them.. I went to the LBS to have my dropper looked at (Reverb POS, now sold), the LBS had a special on Brake Bleeds. I usually do this myself but it was like $15 per and I couldn't pass it up. When I got my perfectly working brakes back they didn't work in the shop on my way out, they were sticky. The LBS said this was a common issue.. WTH? They were perfect until they touched them. I have bleed them dozens of times with no problems. They too were out of warranty. I was livid. I was able to ***** enough to have the new internals paid for and the work covered by the shop. Once the new internals were installed they again worked perfectly. No more issues. There was a internals redesign that fixed the issue. At least I never had another issue. I have since sold that bike.

My new Ripmo came with Level T's. I bought the NX build to avoid the XT components that came with the GX build, knowing Id upgrade over time. I just purchased the G2 Ultimates but have not yet installed them. I am hoping for another set of great brakes.


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## eurochien (Jan 16, 2011)

I've been riding SRAM Guide RSC brakes that I bought from backcountry.com/competitive cycling in September 2015. Last year one of the levers was stuck (we were going through a heat wave here in CO.) and one of the local shops had the warranty sorted out with SRAM. They only did the one lever though (and promptly charged me for a bleed).
Soon after that the other lever started acting up but it was the end of the season and forgot about it until this year. So I took it to the same shop and they're telling me that SRAM won't honor the warranty, but the shop "would be happy to order a new lever for $95". Why is the bike industry so lame? Given the amount of reported incidents on this thread alone, plus the many occurring and observed through bike shops nation - and world-wide, why hasn't there been a recall on these brakes? I filed a report with the CPSC, but since no one's died yet from their brakes seizing on them, I guess nothing will happen. Oh well, it's just brakes eh. Mother******s.


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## Cycloid (Apr 11, 2016)

Lame is an understatement. Our main power is to vote with our money ... ELSEWHERE.

In the meantime, if you did not see it, check out my post #740. It has been a successful solution for me so far.


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## CORTH (May 13, 2015)

eurochien said:


> I've been riding SRAM Guide RSC brakes that I bought from backcountry.com/competitive cycling in September 2015. Last year one of the levers was stuck (we were going through a heat wave here in CO.) and one of the local shops had the warranty sorted out with SRAM. They only did the one lever though (and promptly charged me for a bleed).
> Soon after that the other lever started acting up but it was the end of the season and forgot about it until this year. So I took it to the same shop and they're telling me that SRAM won't honor the warranty, but the shop "would be happy to order a new lever for $95". Why is the bike industry so lame? Given the amount of reported incidents on this thread alone, plus the many occurring and observed through bike shops nation - and world-wide, why hasn't there been a recall on these brakes? I filed a report with the CPSC, but since no one's died yet from their brakes seizing on them, I guess nothing will happen. Oh well, it's just brakes eh. Mother******s.


Your LBS should have done both levers at the same time. There is no explaining why they didn't have the sense to do the whole job right.

Regardless, if you bought the bike or brakes from Competitive Cyclist, email their technical support saying that a local bike shop helped in a pinch with one of the levers, but the other lever is not functioning properly, and you would like to see if Competitive Cyclist can help. They have helped me negotiate with SRAM in the past. I'll bet they will help you out.


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## eurochien (Jan 16, 2011)

Thanks guys, 
Cycloid, I was in Moab a few weeks ago when it was starting to get warm and was regularly wasting the content of my Camelbak on my faulty lever to cool it (to not much effect I might add). 
As for the shop doing a half-assed job, I guess that's the first thing that came to my mind AFTER the other lever crapped out. I should've asked them to do both, just to make sure, but they did not bother to ask or offer and it did not occur to me to ask. They did not forget to charge me for a bleed though.

What really gets me is that in any other industry involving human movement and the potential for injuries (cars, airplanes - Boeing 737 Max notwithstanding, motorcycles - I own one that's had 3 recalls on minute stuff, kids' scooters, roller blades, anything), critical parts such as brakes with any defect are immediately subject to recalls from manufacturers, with faulty parts replaced free of charge. I guess bikes are outside of that and the bike industry is merrily selling us goobers upgrades that are "20.42 % lighter and 18.25 % stiffer than the previous version" but buries its head in the sand at the possibility of a costly recall, has you jumping through hoops for "warranties" and denies them at their discretion, it is such BS. Is it going to take some catastrophic failure and a rider dying or being messed up for life and a $$$$$$$ trial to bring sense to Sram? Because THAT would cost them a whole lot more than a recall on their damn faulty brakes.


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## Cycloid (Apr 11, 2016)

... their damn faulty brakes that are their own damn fault.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

CORTH said:


> Your LBS should have done both levers at the same time. There is no explaining why they didn't have the sense to do the whole job right...


Totally. Sram happily and expeditiously sends out two new replacement levers when given the SNs off the bottom of the calipers. LBS should have done both.


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## eurochien (Jan 16, 2011)

CORTH said:


> Your LBS should have done both levers at the same time. There is no explaining why they didn't have the sense to do the whole job right.
> 
> Regardless, if you bought the bike or brakes from Competitive Cyclist, email their technical support saying that a local bike shop helped in a pinch with one of the levers, but the other lever is not functioning properly, and you would like to see if Competitive Cyclist can help. They have helped me negotiate with SRAM in the past. I'll bet they will help you out.


Shout out to backcountry.com and their warranty department. They confirmed that the serial number I provided was no longer under warranty, but they sent me a spare lever. Love those guys.


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## PJJ205 (Aug 9, 2018)

I have been having problems with my SRAM Guide T rear brake on my 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson for 2-3 months now, but last weekend it finally wet the bed and locked up my rear wheel. The lever would quickly feel like it had a ton of pressure on it whenever it got a bit warm, then it would cool down and go to normal. I don't know if this is a piston thing or something to do with fluid, but it wasn't right. I took it in to see about warranty, only to be told that SRAM likely wouldn't warranty because the lever had scratches and a slight bend in it from previous crashes.

On this particular (warmer than usual) day, the brake started locking up relatively early. About 15 minutes later, I went to drop into a trail only to discover that my wheel was frozen solid. Luckily I was running my GoPro so I had evidence. I had to sit off to the side of the trail and wait for it to cool down and release the pistons so I could cruise back to my truck.

SRAM saw the video and heard from the mechanic; their response was that this isn't a warranty issue and there are no known issues with this model of brake, but they would replace them under "goodwill replacement." I'm not going to argue with that and I appreciate something being done to help me out, but I am curious as to what the cause was. The mechanic at the shop played with both lever and said that the front and rear levers functioned identically so they weren't binding from any sort of damage done to it from crashing, but SRAM has the avenue to say that it was my fault. I'm just glad to be getting it replaced by SRAM when they could of told me to screw off! I like the feel of the brakes a lot and hope that they last me a while.

Part 1:






Part 2:


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## Cycloid (Apr 11, 2016)

PJJ205 said:


> I have been having problems with my SRAM Guide T rear brake on my 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson for 2-3 months now, but last weekend it finally wet the bed and locked up my rear wheel. The lever would quickly feel like it had a ton of pressure on it whenever it got a bit warm, then it would cool down and go to normal. I don't know if this is a piston thing or something to do with fluid, but it wasn't right. I took it in to see about warranty, only to be told that SRAM likely wouldn't warranty because the lever had scratches and a slight bend in it from previous crashes.
> 
> On this particular (warmer than usual) day, the brake started locking up relatively early. About 15 minutes later, I went to drop into a trail only to discover that my wheel was frozen solid. Luckily I was running my GoPro so I had evidence. I had to sit off to the side of the trail and wait for it to cool down and release the pistons so I could cruise back to my truck.
> 
> ...


As I posted earlier, may I suggest you get two 3" strips of white terry-cloth towel, wrap them around the brake lever bodies, and secure them with zip ties. Then, if it's warm out, the white helps keep the brakes cools, and you can wet the cloth so that evaporative cooling keeps the brakes from seizing. Unless it's really warm and/or dry, the cloth stay wet for quite some time, especially if you do multiple wraps.

Nonsense? Yes. Annoying? Yes. But I have found it works very well, uses minimal water, and has the added bonus of keeping my blood from boiling.

Hope that helps


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## deoreo (Aug 26, 2005)

Just wanted to share my data point on the guide brakes.

I picked up a set of "new-take-off" Guide Ultimates for cheap, and after reading through this thread decided that since I needed to shorten the hoses and bleed them for the install, before they were even used I'd install a set of the metal "Chinese" lever pistons.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brake-Lever-Internals-Rebuild-Part-Piston-Assembly-for-sram-GUIDE-Level-db5/302789912525?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=601677609630&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

They were cheap, installed perfectly, and have a wonderful quick, snappy lever return whether they are hot, cold, whatever. Really not sure why these are not original equipment from SRAM.


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## PJJ205 (Aug 9, 2018)

I got my bike back today. As it turns out, the lever that SRAM warrantied was indeed failing because of a crash I had a while back. The mechanic said that once he got my lever freed of fluids, it was apparent that it wasn't functioning properly and something in the master cylinder was probably broken. 

SRAM went above and beyond by sending out a Guide R to replace my Guide T, although they didn't include the clamp to attach it to the bars so the shop tossed one in. $30.00 later and I was out the door with a new lever, which I wasn't even mad about because the lever turned out to be the start of the problem. Anyway, I'm a satisfied customer and I will be editing previous posts to reflect that.


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## L8 APEKS (May 29, 2008)

Short version: I don't think I'll ever put a SRAM brake product on anything I own, ever again.

Long version: Used Shimano brakes *almost* exclusively since the mid-1990's, save for a set of Onzas and Hayes along the way. I've never had a single issue with a Shimano brake. Install them, ride on them...that's it. Hassle free.

Fast forward to last year...

I bought a new bike. Came with SRAM Guide R's. One was bad out of the box (piston issue). Brought it to LBS, SRAM warrantied the lever. They would NOT upgrade me to the RS lever (I really wanted the reach adjustment, because the R's had to be squeezed nearly all the way to the bar). Bummer.

Go out on first ride...the OTHER brake locks up halfway through, won't release. I end up hiking 4 miles. Back to LBS. Second Guide lever warranty replaced.

Now I've got a bad taste in my mouth. Braking STILL wasn't what I wanted. Decided to upgrade to metallic pads. Pads and rotors were broken in properly. STILL not what I'm looking for in brake feel. It felt like a car that has no brake booster...you had to squeeze the lever so far in that you're almost making a fist around the lever and the handlebar. I'm in 3 different shops, and they're telling me they're bled perfectly and that's just they way the Guides feel. Several short test rides on their brand new bikes off the rack confirmed this.

One issue I really hate with the Guide R I don't see mentioned a lot, so I wonder if people just aren't noticing - the *lever flex* is INSANE. Squeezing the lever at moderate pressure has at least a full MM of flex in the lever, probably double that when squeezing hard. This is probably part of the reason the bite, initial feel, and lever throw is terrible...any amount of flex is going to translate to wasted energy and reduced braking performance.

Any holy hell...THE NOISE. So embarrassing!!! New brakes with turkey warble so bad you can hear me the next county over.

Anyway...I have many-times-serviced, and nearly brand new (200 miles?) SRAM Guide-R's, 180 FR and RR, with metal pads...and I HATE THEM. The power is good enough at full lock, but I have some arthritis issues in my hands/fingers. So having a brake with such poor response/actuation that requires a full lever sweep in order to do anything just isn't working out. The "modulation" seems to be a function of moderating the flex in the lever - try it on a workstand and see how much the lever bends and flexes.

Honestly, I was happier with the M785 (!!!) XT brakes I had prior to these Guides, and I am hoping to replace them with M8020's this weekend.

Good riddance, SRAM. I hate being beholden to ONE brand, but the Shimano stuff just friggin' WORKS. I'm not rich, so I can't afford to risk another SRAM product after this. :/


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## L8 APEKS (May 29, 2008)

Cuyuna said:


> I shortened the brake lines and bled the brakes. Definitely got rid of the mushiness but they still don't stop the bike anywhere near as effectively as the Level TL's that came off of it. They don't howl or chatter. Full-hand mash on either lever definitely slows me down some, rear greater than front but I can't lock the front wheel, can barely lock the rear wheel up on loose rock.
> 
> When I bled them after shortening the hoses, I pull the pads of course and cleaned the caliper body with denatured alcohol, scrubbed the rotors with brake cleaner. While the pads were off, I soaked them in denatured alcohol in a heated ultrasonic cleaner, then sanded down the faces lightly.
> 
> The reputation of these XT brakes is pretty good, but looking around the web I'm seeing that my experience with them is not unique. So far, I am completely unimpressed. It pisses me off that after spending $160 on these "upgraded" brakes I now have to drop an additional $50 for new, non-contaminated pads on a set of brakes that have less than 20 miles on them. I just came in from a very nice 20 mile ride out on the local singletrack. The best thing I can say about these brakes is that they do slow me down some when I squeeze the lever. As long as I squeeze _hard_....


Are you comparing like pad material, starting with fresh rotors and bedding in properly, same rotor size, same piston count? Make sure it's all apples to apples. Even starting on a used rotor will make a difference, same as on a car.


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## smittylube (Mar 21, 2009)

I just took mine apart and took off .002"- .003" on mine- same as stated early on in the thread. Mine was stuck and I used air to pop it out. Would work for the majority of my early am rides, but after work watch out.

Small tip if you remove the seals to sand it as I did---- I found a plastic vacuum cap to put over the end where the spring goes and lubed it with silicone to expand the seal for install without tearing the seal it. slid right on easy peasy.


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## BStrummin (Nov 17, 2009)

My rear Guide just started doing this on Sunday. I don't ride too often and had never heard of this, but the shop knew exactly what the problem was and said they'd take care of it. Don't have the serial number but they were purchased new in Dec 2017. So they're still out there and they're still being replaced no questions asked by SRAM.


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## smittylube (Mar 21, 2009)

It was far easier for me to fix mine myself. Only slightly more time than if I dropped it off then picked it back up.
Also I bought mine online so not sure if my LBS would handle it gratus.


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## eurochien (Jan 16, 2011)

./.


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## eurochien (Jan 16, 2011)

BStrummin said:


> ...Don't have the serial number but they were purchased new in Dec 2017. So they're still out there and they're still being replaced no questions asked by SRAM.


The warranty + "extended warranty" is 3 years I think. I filled out a CPSC report and someone from Sram called me to say that they'd extended the warranty on those brakes for an extra year, like Sram is doing us all a big favor. I still think there should be a recall. We'll see when someone ends up injured or worse.


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