# Your advice please - new Ventana S&S ECDM or other options



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

Hi Everyone,

Would appreciate some advice...

*Bikes*
We own two tandems:


A cheap Viking Saratoga MTB tandem - currently broken
A Schauff cruising tandem - like this but an earlier steel frame version with a 6 gear derailleur. It has drum brakes front and rear and caliper brakes front and rear
We have borrowed:

An 18 speed Follis tandem. Standard calipers front and rear and a Magura hydro stop on the rear

*Situation*
My wife and I have been keen tandem riders in the UK for about 4 years. We have singletracked on our MTB tandem and cruised on the other two tandems (max ride 80km or so). We moved to Switzerland in 2011 bringing our Schauff tandem with us and leaving the MTB tandem behind as it had a broken bottom bracket. Obviously 6 gears isn't much use in the mountains so we couldn't use the Schauff much for climbing but its braking system was perfect for any downhills. A friend lent us their Follis tandem which had the gearing we need to get up steep slopes but not the brakes to get down them (had a blown tube on our first outing) - I was cadence braking etc but with only rim brakes heat build up was a problem. I have looked at putting an Arai drum brake on the Follis tandem but the rear hub doesn't have the threads for it.

*Going forward*
I would like to replace all the bikes with something that would let us get into the Swiss Alps (Singletrack, off road and on road riding). After researching it seems like the Ventana ECDM would be the perfect bike for riding in the Alps. I was looking at getting the coupler version so we can take it with us easily when we travel and getting the Rohloff hub as the derailleurs on our other bikes have always been a bit of a pain. For riding on the road I was thinking I could put slicks on it and we could do lightweight rucksack touring if needed (ie staying in hostels and carrying extra gear in rucksacks)

*Questions*
If anyone in the forums has this spec of bike how they have found it? Have you just used it for singletracking of have you been able to use it for other types of riding? Have you used it to travel with? Are you glad you got the Rohloff & the couplers etc etc. Is it your only bike or do you have other tandems?

*Advice*
The price of the Ventana ECDM S&S Rohloff new is somewhere in the region of US $8000+ which is a whole chunk of change! Do you think I would be better off getting a used ECDM (probably without the couplers & Rohloff as they don't seem to come up second hand) and a used road bike tandem (with S&S couplers) to cover our off road and on road requirements for probably thousands of dollars less than one new bike? Would you trust a used ECDM (I have seen that the frame can crack if you are unlucky)

Looking forward to hearing what people think. Cheers,

James

P.S. Was not sure if I can post this to the Double Forte list as well. What's the etiquette on that?


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

The obvious answer is it depends.

If you want road bike performance, you need a road tandem. Yes the ECDM can go fast on the road with slicks or even dirt tires if you can turn the pedals. It will however run out of gear pretty quick.

Used Ventanas are always a risk, however, there are many with low miles and hardly ridden. Even those with some time on them can be a great deal.

If you plan to build new, even though you are in Europe, MTBTandems can build your bike of dreams.

In regards to what you asked about, coupled, Rohloff, ECDM, I recall Alex and I talking about the possibility of a 2x14 Rohloff equipped Fandango(?). The technology should easily carry over to the ECDM providing more high speed gears while still retaining the grunt of low gears.

If you built a 29r ECDM S&S version, you could likely build another complete wheelset with slicks or even something more road bike skinny and really have it all covered with minimal fuss.

I know it didn't help answer your exact questions, but maybe gave some ideas.

PK


----------



## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Hello James,
Paul make many very valid points. We have friends that live in an apartment in New York City with limited space. They went the direction you are asking about...29'er ECDM, S&S,and purchased 2 sets of wheels hoping this would suit all their road and off road purposes. They have traveled with it and as long as they are riding by themselves seems to do the trick. The rub comes when they ride on the road with a group of road tandems(obvious reasons).When we last spoke they had just ordered a new road tandem.
We sometime use our ECDM on the road for coffee shop, farmers market and boardwalk pleasure rides but wouldn't want to ride 50-60 miles that way. 
I think if you want only one tandem to serve many purposes and won't be riding with groups of road tandemists than MTBTandems Fandango line is a good compromise. Realise going in that it is a compromise that will do many things well but will not replace a road tandem or full suspension MTB in cases where they are needed.
So as Paul stated...it depends.
Ed and Pat Gifford
the Snot Rocket tandem


----------



## J&L (Oct 20, 2010)

We own a 29" ECDM, and are casual riders. Fire roads, flowy single track, and some challenging terrain, no racing. It's a great bike, as others with ECDMs can attest to. Perhaps the only issue some would see is weight. It is steel, ours is built with standard tandem (non-weight-weenie) parts, and all up with pedals is a bit over 50lb. You could save weight in forks, pedals, and perhaps other weight weenie parts, or go 26" and drop several pounds right there. But we like it.

It packs for air travel, in the 18lb S&S cases, at just a bit over 100lb. I put the chains and of course tools in another checked bag to keep it at 49.5lb per case.

Where we live (Northern CA) there are lots of great trails, close by trails are at the top of the mountains, twisty mountain roads, and driving further, day and overnights, opens up many, many more. So we can pack it in our hatchback in 2 big parts, tires on in about 15 minutes. I always worried with our old tandem on the roof racks on twisty roads, and FS is heavier than that. Plus it is more secure (e.g. less visible) when you stop for a break on road trips. 

Posted a picture about year back on the ECDM thread. It was built by MTB Tandems.

Good Luck,
Jon


----------



## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

giff07 said:


> Hello James,
> Paul make many very valid points. We have friends that live in an apartment in New York City with limited space. They went the direction you are asking about...29'er ECDM, S&S,and purchased 2 sets of wheels hoping this would suit all their road and off road purposes. They have traveled with it and as long as they are riding by themselves seems to do the trick. The rub comes when they ride on the road with a group of road tandems(obvious reasons).When we last spoke they had just ordered a new road tandem.
> We sometime use our ECDM on the road for coffee shop, farmers market and boardwalk pleasure rides but wouldn't want to ride 50-60 miles that way.
> I think if you want only one tandem to serve many purposes and won't be riding with groups of road tandemists than MTBTandems Fandango line is a good compromise. Realise going in that it is a compromise that will do many things well but will not replace a road tandem or full suspension MTB in cases where they are needed.
> ...


A couple more things I forgot to mention is that going coupled on an ECDM forces Ventanna to use steel tubing for the build(heavier) or I believe titainium is an option(expensive) Not sure about the Ti option. We started off roading with a 26'er Fandango and traded up to an ECDM which handles all varieties of off roading (tight single track to bombing downhills) with confidence inspiring ease. We were very happy with the Fandango but my stoker had the oppeertunity to ride some rock gardens on full suspension and it was her telling me we need to get one of these! Good luck with you choice!
Ed and Pat
tSRt (ECDM)


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Yes a Fandango 29r is another option if full suspension is not a requirement. Problem is though, I do not believe Alex has them coupled yet.

PK


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

PMK said:


> Yes a Fandango 29r is another option if full suspension is not a requirement. Problem is though, I do not believe Alex has them coupled yet.


I believe the idea of a Fandango S&S involves the same issues that require Ventana to make the ECdM S&S out of steel - S&S don't make (or at least don't make available) couplers sized for the diameter of the boom tube.

An S&S Rohloff would be a brutal (in a good way) travel tandem. We have an S&S ECdM with 3x9 gearing. It is a bike more capable than we are as riders. We do ride road to and from trails, but this is short distances on knobbies. You could switch tires as mentioned, but also as mentioned you run out of gearing pretty fast. We run standard MTB gearing of 22/32/44 and it would be made worse on the road if you lowered gearing (as low as you can go in the front with the Rohloff hub) for Alps work.

There's also a big difference in the feel of efficiency. We have a road tandem as well and the difference between the two on the road is...about what you'd suspect.

All that said, if you're road riding in the Alps, perhaps MTB gearing is going to be of benefit?


----------



## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

We spoke to Alex a year or so ago about a coupled Fandango 29'er thinking it to be the perfect travel tandem. Useable in most situations. He felt it was a do-able option but not something he would regularly stock. So it would be custom and require a wait.
E&P


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Maybe now with the new shop, and more room, he can take a ride down the route of a coupled Fandango 29r.

It really would be a very good do-all machine...especially with a 2x14 Rohloff and big brakes.

PK


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback so far. It does sound like two tandems are going to be needed


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Then why does Ventana only offer S&S tandems in steel and not aluminum?


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> Then why does Ventana only offer S&S tandems in steel and not aluminum?


The metallurgy of brazing the couplers to the tubes. Aluminum to the couplers requires adhesive bonding.

Pretty much a subject for another new topic.

PK


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

*Update*

Just a quick update. I have found a rather amazing looking 1999 ECDM in Switzerland that I am going to have a look at this weekend - the owner has had the frame polished (PDF) which looks pretty amazing!

The frame might be to big for us but we shall see... I do have some concerns with regards to the parts on an older bike but I will start another topic with those concerns to keep this one on track


----------



## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Hi James ,
Sorry for the late response.Thats a very nice looking ECDM. As far as the age of it goes I would be concerned if it has a lot of miles on it. Components can be updated as needed. The frame itself is also designed with a life span in mind as we found out a couple of years ago. We had a weld failure at the stoker seat tube /bottom bracket interface. In talking to Ventanna, Sherwood figured we put enough miles/pedal strokes/stress cycles on in a year and a half to meet his 10 year criteria.Yes we ride a lot! All was completely taken care of by Ventanna including reinforcement and re powder coat under warranty, however we are in the US and shipping from Switzerland would probably put this out of the question. A few things have changed on the newer frames but we still see plenty of older ones on the trails. PMK or Alex Nutt would be a better source of info for the various parts and their reliability than I would be.
Let us know what you decide.
Ed and Pat Gifford
the Snot Rocket tandem


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

Thanks for the response Ed & Pat.

It is the pictures of your broken tandem (and someone elses) that have me worried about a second hand frame! The owner of the tandem reckons they have done about 2000km (1242 miles) on it but I don't know on what terrain. How far away from your mileage at breakage is that? As you say, shipping a frame back for repair would be a costly business from Switzerland to the US. Its another reason I like the idea of the S&S coupled frame - easy to ship a broken part back for repair if it was needed.

As an aside - have you seen any S&S coupled tandems being put to full off road use? All the pictures I see online of ECDMs doing "proper" off road stuff seem to be non coupled frames. When we get a bike I want to be able to ride & race everything possible without bike worries (I didn't mention it in my first post but we are about a 120kg [265lb] team).

I have had an email response from Alex Nutt with regards to the price of a new bike. I didn't want to take up his time with more questions unless I know there is a good chance of me buying a bike from him hence asking the questions in the forums first. From all the online comments (and his quick email response) he obviously has a well deserved good reputation!

Cheers,
James


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

swiss_toni said:


> How far away from your mileage at breakage is that?


There isn't a way to tell. There isn't a mileage limit, a year limit, or anything qualitative like that. It's part HOW it was ridden (types of trails), part WHO it was ridden by (light team, heavy team, mashers, etc.), and part luck.

We ride fairly smooth trails with the occasional set of rocks, but we're a heavier team (350lb plus water and gear) and we do a lot of riding in the small ring with a fair bit of mashing/torque application. I've not heard of Ventana's "10 year" lifespan idea; we managed to crack our frame in 3.5 years of riding.

Another team I know went much closer to 10. Plenty of others I know have never had an issue, including on horizontal-shock frames like you're looking at above.

As an aside, this issue is probably eliminated on the S&S bikes since they are made of steel.



swiss_toni said:


> As an aside - have you seen any S&S coupled tandems being put to full off road use? All the pictures I see online of ECDMs doing "proper" off road stuff


Anything you can do on a non-coupled Ventana tandem you can do on an S&S Ventana tandem. We've had both back to back, and I couldn't tell you the difference in ride feel, flex, or anything other than frame weight. Our Burley road tandem is a lesson in frame flex, so I know what that's like to ride.


----------



## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

What Okay fine states I agree with. The 10 year idea came from Sherwood himself as an "average" design factor. Obviously it depends on a lot of factors as he states. Although we haven't had a coupled tandem my opinion matches his in that I wouldn't be concerned about riding it any differently than a non coupled bike. I would check the couplers before every ride for torque much like I routinely check air pressure in the tires and suspension. You are a light weight team at 265. We are generally around the 300 lb. mark pretty evenly distributed. Our terrain is general cross country stuff to some mildly technical drops and twisties. I do love going downhill fast and attacking climbs.Since there is not any powder coat on the frame I would suggest looking for signs of cracks around the welds and particularly in and around both bottom brackets. Ours failed at the stokers bottom bracket and had several cracks through the bottom of the BB shell also. I also recall one that cracked and failed at the head tube/top tube connection.
Hope this is of some help. The only other factor to consider is a new frame carries a 2 year warranty. Ventana's customer service is by far the best I've ever dealt with in 35 years of cycling.
Ed and Pat


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

We are a much larger team at 350 plus some gear.

If I were to say I never worry about cracking or breaking a frame, on either our road tandem or an of-road tandem that would be a lie.

I am always inspecting while maintaining, and even often check stress areas for cracks.

We do not baby our ECDM! We ride it hard on pretty technical terrain.

Sherwood is no slacker when it comes to designing. I have a lot of respect for his ideas and more importantly, being able to build and heat treat every frame in house. This alone is huge in controlling quality.

Are there things I don't like about our ECDM. Yes. But it has not let me down yet so maybe I am too techy. I know what I want changed on our next rendition and will pay extra for it.

Thing is though, maybe this frame will last until he starts building tandems with the new style rear ends.


As good practice for all suspension bikes. If you have a lock out shock, always avoid using lockout. Many frames die early from lockout use. The additional pounding into the tube structure is not good.

I spent the extra money and bought two used rear shocks for our ECDM. Neither one has true lockout. A properly sprung, valved and adjusted rear shock is huge on these ECDM's. 

I have worked with Jeanne and now have it where if I notice the chassis is not hooking up, maybe on account of dry terrain, wet terrain, rocky, sandy or whatever conditions have changed, she will start adjusting while rolling.

Typically, the rebound remains the same always. One or two clicks of compression, either softer or firmer will drastically change the bike setup. We are fortunate to have this on the fly adjusting capability for the front also. Normally within a couple miles both ends are dialed in when needed and then we just ride.

BTW, bother Alex. Regardless of what you find elsewhere, give him an opportunity to be your go to person. He does a great job building what the customer wants.

PK


----------



## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Agree with Pauls statements! We certajnly do not "baby" our ECDM either. In fact when it broke the first thing we dicussed was purchasing a totally new frameset from Sherwood if that was necessary. Also agree that even though Alex is a little busier than usual as he is moving into a new shop, he loves to talk off road tandeming and is an excellent choice as a "go to" guy!


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

swiss_toni said:


> have you seen any S&S coupled tandems being put to full off road use? All the pictures I see online of ECDMs doing "proper" off road stuff seem to be non coupled frames.


Also here, keep in mind that there are probably 10x as many ECdM frames as ECdM S&S frames (if not more), so the sheer number of pictures will likely reflect that. And we almost never take a camera along, and when we do we forget to take pictures or it's too difficult to set up a good shot when we're riding by ourselves.


----------



## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

I am a little late to this thread but we own both a 26 ECDm ( thanks to Paul's help in finding a used one) and a new 29r coupled EDCM. We ride both but seem to ride the 29r more often now. We have taken both to Moab and ridden with the same friends and the teams on 29r seem to do better and are certainly faster in most sections. We can do the same technical sections on the 29r the only problem is the occasional very tight corner makes the handling of the longer wheelbase tougher. We can get the bike in the two S&S cases at just under 50 lbs each but cannot put extras in the case like we can with our S&S road tandem. The other thing to look at on a used 26 ECDM is the older rear triangles had tire size restrictions due to limited clearance. Our friends ended up trading in their old frame for a new one with Ventana's very generous trade in program. Sherwood is great to work with and the coupled tandems are all custom one offs and he was able to give me more stand over height on the 29r then the 26 even with the much higher bottom brackets and bigger wheels. We ride a variety of terrain from purpose built single track , ski trails and double track and mountain trails here in Alaska and yearly trips to Moab.


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

akexpress said:


> Sherwood is great to work with and the coupled tandems are all custom one offs and he was able to give me more stand over height on the 29r then the 26 even with the much higher bottom brackets and bigger wheels


Thats good to know. My wife and I are pretty short (5'8" and 5') but it looks like the 17/14" frame will fit us. If you don't mind me asking....how much free space over the top tube do you have when straddling the bike? 

I have only ever ridden a 26r mountain bike so was not planning on getting a 29r as I like the idea of having as short a wheelbase as possible for switchbacks and singletrack. Stick with what you know and all that!


----------



## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

I am also 5'8" and I touch the top tube on the 26" 17/14 frame straddling it. I am careful so as not to stop next to a hole! I have at least an inch or maybe two on the 29r 17/15 because Sherwood changed the top tube to give me the clearance.


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

*choice almost made*

Just about to pull the trigger on the purchase with mtbtandems.com. We are going with the following spec:

17/14 ECDM S&S frame 
Rohloff hub (40x16)
White brothers loop dual crown fork
Fox RP23 rear fork
Hope V4 brakes (203mm vented front and 203mm standard rear)
Middleburn cranks & chainrings
Sun MTX rims

Gone for the strongest components possible as it seems sensible when we plan on throwing ourselves down mountains.

Just need to pick the colour - the wife wants red so its looking like candy red (which seems like a popular choice for coupled bikes!). Our bike will look pretty much like the ones linked to below

a coupled rohloff spec bike
a coupled derailleur bike


----------



## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Sounds like a great build, toni. Congratulations on stepping up, especially for the Rohloff. 

Is it a Fandango or ECDM? We're on our second Fandango (Rohloff this time), and are digging it. Alex was great to work with, as you know by now.

Cheers and happy trails,

Mike


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

She&I said:


> Is it a Fandango or ECDM?


We are going with the 26er ECDM.

Out of interest what sprocket ratio did you get with your Rohloff? I am going with 40:16 which meets the minimum factor (2.5) for tandems set by Rohloff for the hubs. I am going to get a 38T sprocket as well in case the 40T doesn't give us low enough gears for long mountain climbs but this gives a sprocket factor of 2.38 which would negate the Rohloff warranty so hopefully the 40T will be good enough.


----------



## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

swiss_toni said:


> We are going with the 16er ECDM.
> 
> Out of interest what sprocket ratio did you get with your Rohloff? I am going with 40:16 which meets the minimum factor (2.5) for tandems set by Rohloff for the hubs. I am going to get a 38T sprocket as well in case the 40T doesn't give us low enough gears for long mountain climbs but this gives a sprocket factor of 2.38 which would negate the Rohloff warranty so hopefully the 40T will be good enough.


Assuming you meant 26er, toni 

I don't recall where we landed teeth-wise, but it's _much_ lower than spec. Warranty be damned, if we can't climb at *our* limit, I'm not interested in owning it. Knowing the Speedhub is overbuilt is enough for us. If it breaks, that's the way it goes. Until it breaks, it's way better than dragging chain all over the rings and the other pains with a drive made for single bikes.


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

She&I said:


> Assuming you meant 26er, toni


Yep :blush: fixed the post


----------



## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

BTW, totally stoked for you since the Trans-Alps is open. We stayed in Locarno (Monte Bre, specifically) last year, but without bike. Hoping to get back there and enjoy some of CH's incredible outdoors. Salud!


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

swiss_toni said:


> Just need to pick the colour - the wife wants red so its looking like candy red


You're not limited to candy red. For instance, we went with Ferarri Red on a previous frame:

The ECDM thread - Page 3

And Ventana has a very wide array of colors to choose from.


----------



## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

swiss_toni said:


> Just about to pull the trigger on the purchase with mtbtandems.com. We are going with the following spec:
> 
> 17/14 ECDM S&S frame
> Rohloff hub (40x16)
> ...


You are going to like this bike! I have nothing but rave reviews for Ventana tandems and Alex at mtbtandems!

Please post pictures and details when you get your new bike!


----------



## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Congrats James,cannot wait for you to post pics and hear what you and the wife think of your choice after a few rides. Best of luck with the tandem.
Ed and Pat Gifford
the Snot Rocket tandem


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

*The bike has arrived*










Just thought I would follow up. Our new Ventana ECDM S&S with Rohloff arrived last week from mtbtandems.com. It comes in a very big box.

We have been out for two rides on it already and it is fantastic on the single track. We have had a couple of small falls whilst getting used to off road riding and what we can and can't do on the bike but nothing to put us off!

First trip was a proving trip to get the bike suspension pressures set up correctly for us (had some help from a local MTB shop with this) and to make sure everything was working and adjusted correctly. GPS track. Cycled along one of our local rivers called the Sihl - route was mainly open riverside trails with a little bit of singletrack

Second trip was to a place called Stein am Rhein on the Swiss & German border next to the Rhine river. GPS track. A fantastic flowing single track route and we finished off with a swim in the Rhine. A tour I would recommend to any tandem MTB riders. We had a friend who guided us round the route and he was impressed with what the bike could do.

Next steps are to try and get into the Alps for some more tours. I have
also bought a thule pack n pedal tour rack (was previously called the freeload rack) to go on the back as we hope to do some multi day tours. I have not mounted it yet though.

Thanks again to everyone for their advice.

James

PS. We have borrowed a friends Cannondale road tandem and love it (just did the Zurich Triathlon with it) and our plan now is to have the Ventana for the off road stuff and a Cannondale road bike for everything else.


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

She's a beaut! :thumbsup:


----------



## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Killer! Congrats on going Rohloff.


----------



## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: Your advice please - new Ventana S&S ECDM or other options*

Man, that's a sharp looking rig...have fun!

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

*Update - touring mode*

We just finished a two week tour in Cuba on our ECDM. With slicks and panniers it made a great touring machine (as its the only coupled tandem we have it had to be!).

ECDM in touring mode


----------



## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Nice! We ride our ECDM on the street at times for short hops to the store or farmers market. It is very comfotable. How long were you in Cuba for? The riding must be spectacular!
Ed and Pat
the Snot Rocket


----------



## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

Wunderschön!

I was going to suggest you may want to consider pulling a trailer to tour. Combining racks and full suspension bikes is always a challenge - and with a tandem, space is at even MORE of a premium. So you might want to consider a trailer. If you can pull a single-wheel BOB trailer, you'll have a lot of room and when you're not touring, or done for the day, just unhook the trailer and you have your trail-bombing EDCM! I did a week-long tour off road with a BOB and it was a pretty nice way to go. Plus, you're not adding that much more weight to the tandem, which is a nice relief for wheels, frame, etc. However, it does add yet another item to transport from A to B. If you're flying, that makes it a non-starter. 

Anyway, I really enjoyed following your posts and your final purchase decision. Thanks for sharing. I know an EDCM is in our future. Just have to be able to justify it financially first!


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Average cost of bypass surgery, $33,067. There!, I just justified it for you 
Cheers


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

giff07 said:


> Nice! We ride our ECDM on the street at times for short hops to the store or farmers market. It is very comfotable. How long were you in Cuba for? The riding must be spectacular!
> Ed and Pat
> the Snot Rocket


Same here...if you don't mind the tire wear, the ECDM is pretty darn versatile.

Around here, I do not lock it up, just stay with it while Jeanne gets stuff. Sure get a lot of questions from bypassers.

PK


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

giff07 said:


> Nice! We ride our ECDM on the street at times for short hops to the store or farmers market. It is very comfotable. How long were you in Cuba for? The riding must be spectacular!
> Ed and Pat
> the Snot Rocket


Sorry for the very delayed response. We did a 2 week trip - and cycled for 10 of the days. It is a great place to cycle as once you get out of the bigger towns and cities the roads are very quiet. I keep meaning to post a trip report but never get round to it. Bit tricky though for Americans to get into Cuba I believe!!

We just finished another tour on the bike - 1 week in Denmark which was also a very nice place to cycle - cycle paths everywhere.


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

*Bike update: rust*

Just thought I would do a quick update on the bike and try and get some ideas from you all.

We haven't been out on the bike much recently as we have been riding our road tandem a lot instead. Last thing we did was a week tour in Denmark where the bike performed brilliantly as a touring machine. Currently the bike is still packed up in its boxes from that trip and we haven't been off road on it for a long time. The reason I haven't reassembled the bike is that I need to come up with a solution for:

1. Water getting into the frame via the couplers. 
2. Treating the rust that is now developing inside all the tubing

The last two times that I have disassembled the bike for tours I found water sitting in the down tube joining onto the front bottom bracket shell. There are no drain holes so the water sits until you take the bike apart and empty it out. The water is causing rust here and I have noticed other tubes on the bike are also rusting internally. I have treated the rust but the products I have used don't seem to be doing that great a job.

So questions to people with steel framed bikes with couplers...
1. What methods have you used to stop water getting in through the couplers? (apart from not riding in the wet which is not an option for us)
2. What rust treatment have you found effective to treat rust already in place in steel tubing? (we are based in Europe but could source US products if needed)

Alex at mtbtandems suggested using more grease on the coupler threads (which I tried but didn't work for us) and using old inner tubes to cover the couplings - but I haven't been able to get an inner tube with a big enough diameter to go over the largest coupling (which is the one letting in all the water)

Thanks in advance for your help.


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Which rust products have you used? I was steered toward Frame Saver, but that's mostly to prevent rust, not convert rust to inert.

Amazon.com : J.P. Weigles Bicycle Frame Saver Rust Inhibitor 4.75 oz : Bike Cleaners : Sports & Outdoors

We ride in a very dry climate, so my problem is fine dirt getting into the coupler threads. I don't have rust issues on my S&S even after 3+ years. We have the occasional creek crossing to deal with, but it sounds like you're in a much wetter climate, so they're not comparable.

You might try to speak with Sherwood at Ventana relative to having a machine shop drill weep holes to drain water. Maybe Sherwood would have good locations for these holes, or detail why he avoided them.

I'm surprised a normal 26x2.1 tube won't fit over the boom tube coupler. It might be a tight fit (especially over the increased diameter of the coupler itself) but a tight fit is what you're looking for relative to keeping water out. We can get 26x2.5 tubes here in the US, and that would certainly fit.


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

Okayfine said:


> I'm surprised a normal 26x2.1 tube won't fit over the boom tube coupler. It might be a tight fit (especially over the increased diameter of the coupler itself) but a tight fit is what you're looking for relative to keeping water out. We can get 26x2.5 tubes here in the US, and that would certainly fit.


I will give it another go - maybe wasn't trying hard enough. Did the inner tube solution keep the dust out for you?


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

The rust will need to be converted or dissolved away.

There is a product here in the US called OSPHO, it is based on phosphoric acid. Besides OSPHO, there are automotive body work repair products used by the ones doing thi daily. It treats and conditions steel prior to painting.

As for corrosion protection, Cossosion X is good stuff, I have been using Corr Ban 22 on the frame of my truck, also very good.

Whatever you do, get it done sooner than later.

In regards to a large enough inner tube, find a front tube from a MX bike that flatted, might even be too latge.

PK


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

We rarely decouple the frame, but inner tube covers have worked well for dust. I even use a small section of a road bike tube (700x23) to cover the QR on our fork (QR20 on a Marz Bomber), so I can grease the QR and be able to release it even months later.

If all else fails, you might look at sticking a small bag of desiccant (or uncooked rice) in the boom tube to absorb moisture.


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

I really like the desiccant idea! Of course the standing water needs to be dealt with first, but I would expect that there would still be high humidity that could cause corrosion.

You can "renew" desiccant by drying it in the microwave and if you get the color changing type Recharging Reusable Indicating Silica Desiccants / ProtoParadigm Blog the conditions inside the frame could be monitored.

I can foresee one potential problem; if conditions are "wetter" than the desiccant can keep up with, but something I would certainly consider, if I didn't live in the desert .


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

*5 month tour - what spares to take*

Me again. Wanted to get some more feedback from any ECDM owners out there 

We are going to take our bike for a 5 month tour through South America. I know you are not supposed to use full suspension mountain bikes for touring but it is the only coupled tandem we have. I was wondering what spares people would suggest for a trip like this (based on what you have broken whilst riding)

Apart from the obvious (ie chain links, spokes, rohloff spare parts, brake pads etc) what else would people recommend especially concerning the suspension. I am thinking about getting spare elastomers and bolts for the rear suspension and maybe a seal set for the front white brothers fork. Also has anyone had their hydraulic brakes go pear shaped whilst out riding and what spares would have saved the day? Any other thoughts from people?

I have found a couple of cases of people having the rear swing arm breaking but there is not much I can do in preparation for that (no space for a spare swing arm in the panniers!). Extrawheel Voyager Trailer | threewheeling.net and Chain Stay breaks | frame | Gasek

Cheers


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

It really depends on what sort of bike shop availability you'll have along your route. 

I'd focus on parts to get you out of jams. Aside from the normal kit, I'd add a couple spare shifter cables, a couple tire boots, a crescent wrench to help true brake discs or cogs.

For the suspension spares, you might consider replacing stuff now and riding on the new parts and keeping the used parts for spares. You might also consider starting out with other new wear components (chain, cogs, tires, tubes). If you're taking fork seals, you might as well pack a shock air seal kit, they're cheap and don't weigh anything. 

The longest we're out is an afternoon, but we can be miles from anywhere, so I try to be as prepared as practical. Tube, patch kit, tire pump and suspension pump, shifter cables, tire boots, chain powerlinks, brake pad set and pins, crank bolts, T25 disc bolts...basically if I've had a failure of a part or seen a failure of a part on a ride, I try to have a spare.

Have never had any issues with our Hope hydro brakes. Again, I'd suggest bleeding them with fresh fluid before you leave.

Sounds like an awesome adventure!!:eekster:


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

Okayfine said:


> It really depends on what sort of bike shop availability you'll have along your route.


I am presuming that there will be no shops stocking ventana or MTB specific parts for most of the trip  Thanks for the shock air seal kit hint - will look into that.


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

BIKE Magazine would run a fair number of stories of the mountain biking scene in South America. If you're in the back country you're not going to be able to find parts, but there may be support in larger towns. But if you're mostly going to be in backcountry, I'd definitely bring tires, tubes, chains, stuff that would stop you dead. Blown shock or fork would make for an uncomfortable ride, but you could still ride it out.

I wouldn't be worried about the frame. I looked through your two links and the first seemed to be an earlier design of the HD rear arm - the reinforcement looked to be welded on the sides, where they've long since moved to reinforcement on the top - perhaps Ventana figured something out. I don't recall any threads here about any failures of the rear arm.


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

I would suggest full prep prior to the ride.

Quality full rebuild of the suspension. Have bearings greased or replaced, new drivetrain and wheels retensioned, as mentioned brakes bled or refreshed.

A prepped machine should handle the months of riding except for emergency repairs.

PK


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

I was going to post that their bike is relatively new and shouldn't need new bits and bobs...but looking back through the thread their bike is already two years old :eekster: Where did the time go?


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

!!!!!



swiss_toni said:


> Me again. ...
> We are going to take our bike for a 5 month tour through South America. ...
> Cheers


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

PMK said:


> Quality full rebuild of the suspension.


 Hi PMK thanks for the response - when you say rebuild do you mean getting this done on the rear - fox float rebuild? And something similar on the front fork?



Okayfine said:


> ...but looking back through the thread their bike is already two years old :eekster: Where did the time go?


 Yep - time is flying by!


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

swiss_toni said:


> Hi PMK thanks for the response - when you say rebuild do you mean getting this done on the rear - fox float rebuild? And something similar on the front fork?
> 
> Yep - time is flying by!


I do not know the maintenance intervals you keep on your suspension components. Yes, unless very recently done, I would have a the items fully rebuilt by a qualified person or business. Not just air seals but the entire units. Then if you feel the need, carry spare air seals with you.

Nothing seems worse than silly failures when far from home.

PK


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

*MTB tandem racing - Roc D'azur, France*

We just competed in the Roc D'azur tandem race in France on our ECDM. Just over 160 teams finished. It was very cool to see that many other tandem MTB's in the same place racing. We got our asses kicked but had a great time.

It is a challenging (42km/26mile) course with some very fun technical descents, steep climbs (800m/2600ft), beach riding, stream crossings and single trail. Most people had hardtail tandems - but there were some other full suspension bikes there. Didn't see another Ventana but there were so many bikes we couldn't see them all.

If anyone has a bucket list of tandem events I would definitely add the Roc D'Azur tandem race to it.

Roc D'azur 2015 - Home

We also managed to get our rear shock serviced by the Fox technicians and our brakes serviced by the Hope technicians all on the same day!


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

swiss_toni said:


> Just over 160 teams


:eekster:


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

*Completed - 6500km (4000miles) trip through Chile & Argentina*

I have been meaning to make an update for a while so... we completed our 5 month trip throught Argentina and Chile and have been back home for 6 months. The trip was amazing - some of the best and worst times of our lives but overall a great experience and one we want to do again 

The bike just about survived although we did manage to break a few things at one point or another. Some things broke due to the load we were carrying on a bike not designed to carry a load, some things broke because we cycled a long way on some very bad roads and some things broke just because! A quick list of some of the things that broke... leaking rohloff seals, 1 exploding rim, 1 cracked rohloff, 1 snapped seat stay, 1 cracking chain stay, 1 bent chain tensioner, a few snapped spokes and lots of other assorted broken things! The bike is still in its packing cases waiting for me to gather the energy to reassemble everything! (we have been riding the road tandem exclusively since getting back) Next time we would definitely get a proper touring tandem but we are so glad that we did the trip on the bike we had instead of delaying until we had touring bike.

I would just like to thank Alex from mtbtandems.com and Teresa at Ventana for helping out with some of the major problems.

If you have any questions let me know and if you are interested in reading more about the trip send me a PM.


----------



## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

Please define "proper touring tandem". That looks like a very solid bike.


----------



## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

bakerjw said:


> Please define "proper touring tandem". That looks like a very solid bike.


When we do it again we will go with a hardtail tandem with proper rack mount points.

With the full-suspension we had limited rack choices. The rack we ended up using caused one of the seat stay tubes to snap by the mid point of the trip.


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

swiss_toni said:


> If you have any questions let me know and if you are interested in reading more about the trip send me a PM.


Safe to say most of us here would love to read a more in-depth account of your trip on the S&S! :thumbsup:


----------

