# Strong simple hub.



## maxforce (Mar 8, 2011)

I have a 29er and I like to push hard in my granny gears. From reading these forums for a few days I believe there are no 2 or 3 or 4 speed hubs that are strong. Is this right? 

You have to go straight for a Shimano Alfine 11 or a Rohloff Speedhub to get a hub with granny gears?

I really like the look of the sram i-motion 3 disc but sram say it is for light use/comfort only, no mountain biking. 

Thanks.


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## estutjaweh (Jan 3, 2008)

Apparently Shimano state that the Alfine 11 is also not MTB suitable...maybe thats true, maybe its just a disclaimer? Who knows.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

If you want a small number of widely spaced gears, why not look into the schlumpf crank IG. I don't think the new 3 gear mountain drive is available yet, but there is a 2 gear one. I could be wrong, but I can't imagine there being an issue with input torque unless you are very heavy. Otherwise yes I thnk the rohloff is the only one with a guarrantee, that is as long as you don't void it.


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## maxforce (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks for the replys. The schlumpf cranks look good, I will ask about them in a schlumpf thread. 

I would still be looking for some tips about hubs that can handle low gearing.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

low gearing issue is why I went Rohloff, but others weigh up the costs and risks and go Alfine. If you don't gear it too low you should be OK. Are you wanting to replicate standard mtb low gear with 22/34? If you want warrantee with that you need to go Rohloff.


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## maxforce (Mar 8, 2011)

Up the steep hills, with my derailleur, I definitely use 22/34 but I roll on 22/22 98% of the time.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

IMO you are taking your chances with anything but a rohloff.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

lots of folks running alfines with low gears in this thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=660305

Check the threads in this sub-forum and you might be surprised to see which hubs have actual problems.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

yes lots of different opinions there....the fact remains though, that rohloff have a warrantee for breakage and set clear user limits for it. I'd probably give the alfine a go for sure, but the OP is pushing the point that he puts extra torque on the system. If he was to gear the alfine higher he'd have no problems I wager.


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## Leopold Porkstacker (Apr 21, 2010)

estutjaweh said:


> Apparently Shimano state that the Alfine 11 is also not MTB suitable...maybe thats true, maybe its just a disclaimer? Who knows.


Yeah, they said that about the 8-speed Alfine, but some people on these forums have RACED a full season with those hubs, and have only needed a cable adjustment and eventual re-lube servicing. They are apparently over-built, and as a result, very usable for offroad conditions. I've beat the hell out of mine doing technical rocky downhill stuff, and steep-ass knee-killing uphill stuff, and it now (after about 2,700 miles of offroad riding) is indicating that it needs a servicing (I can hear the pawls clicking when coasting, and the hub drags a bit when coasting as well). For all we know the 11-speed version is just as tough, but who here has tried them out yet? I would like to hear some success stories before I, too, would be sold on the idea.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

finch2 said:


> ...If he was to gear the alfine higher he'd have no problems I wager.


Wow, we're lucky to have your expertise on this forum! Since you're here perhaps you could shed some light on this issue.
- What gear were you running when your Alfine 8 failed? 
- What failed on your Alfine 8 when you broke it running what you consider too low a gear?
- Could you please give us your links to other Aline 8 hub failures related to running too low of a gear?
- In your expert opinion, how low can an Alfine 8 go?

Same questions for your Alfine 11.


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## john_dalhart (Nov 6, 2009)

SRAM Dual Drive

Sturmey-Archer CS-RK3


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

pursuiter said:


> Wow, we're lucky to have your expertise on this forum! Since you're here perhaps you could shed some light on this issue.
> - What gear were you running when your Alfine 8 failed?
> - What failed on your Alfine 8 when you broke it running what you consider too low a gear?
> - Could you please give us your links to other Aline 8 hub failures related to running too low of a gear?
> ...


not sure what you are getting at there....I was just stating the obvious. Like a Rohloff, if you gear too low you will be inviting issues. Gear higher, and the warrantee will look after you. Given the OP is talking about extra high torque, this would suggest the need to be cautious with gearing...yes, even on the rohloff. At least with the rohloff they give you definite values which you can adhere to. The Alfine still has people guessing. To the OP, rohloff suggest if you are over 100Kg you need to use a minimum 40t ring in front, but there are a lot of details to look into if you ever go that way.


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

If I'm not mistaken Rohloff's suggestions for gearing is based on a tandem world class team. In other words if I remember correctly, the forbidden gearing is forbidden if you're a world class athlete, because then you might over torque the hub. I'm running 36t-17 which gives me 17-90 gear inches. 17 g.i. is really nice with my Pugsley. It climbs like a goat, and since I'm far from a world class athlete ( anymore ) I'm not worried about over stressing the hub.


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## maxforce (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your excellent tips and suggestions, special thanks to finch2 for pushing everyone back onto topic 

Like john_dalhart's suggestions, I was most interested in 2 or 3 or 4 speed hubs, my thinking is, "the simpler the stronger." 

What do you think?


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

maxforce said:


> Thanks everyone for your excellent tips and suggestions, special thanks to finch2 for pushing everyone back onto topic
> 
> Like john_dalhart's suggestions, I was most interested in 2 or 3 or 4 speed hubs, my thinking is, "the simpler the stronger."
> 
> What do you think?


Ha...glad to have stayed on topic for once myself!

I would have probably thought so about the simpler IGH's, but the jury is still out on a lot of hubs that don't have a manufacturer limit, just because we aren't sure where the limit is. Doesn't mean they won't be fine though. I think the big thing is that "simpler may be cheaper". In a lot of these cases, they are so much cheaper than the rohloff it can be worth trying it out just to see. I have heard good things about durability of the divinci hub, but know little about it. I am also interested in a small geared wide range IGH to make a cheat's SS bike. I really need low gears here, but having a middle range would make the bike much more fun. One issue is that any IGH will add a lot of weight, so I am keen to see some bang for buck with weight to number of gears ratio! that Sram dual drive looks interesting. It should take a single sprocket, and give chain ring size jumps which is what I'd be after. Oh, just saw it doesn't take disc.

Suba....yes, I have also voided my warrantee ont he rohloff, but it is a calculated risk, and hopefully a small one. 36/16


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

I talked to the Stermy guy at NAHBS this year and he said no way for MTB's on any of their hubs. His argument was the shifter box on the side of the hub , to easy to knock off and the seals just aren't up to snuff for dirt/mud use.
I have a Alfine 8 with a 39x26 no problems in the mud. Only thing I don't like about it is the chain line. Very narrow.

Tim


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## john_dalhart (Nov 6, 2009)

TimT said:


> I talked to the Sturmy guy at NAHBS this year and he said no way for MTB's on any of their hubs. His argument was the shifter box on the side of the hub, too easy to knock off ...


Of course the _official_ factory word is "no MTB'ing with our IGH" for almost every hub.

Some Rohloff models have a "shifter box" outside the hub. The Shimano Nexus 3 has a "shifter box" (bell crank housing) on the outside of the hub. The SRAM T3, P5 and S7 have a "shifter box" (Click Box) on the outside of the hub. No Sturmey-Archer IGH models have a "shifter box" outside the hub. Most Sturmey-Archer IGH models are shifted by a steel indicator chain that comes out the R.H. end of the axle. It's worked for 108 years, it's cheap, easy to spare and it's not going to get knocked off by anything short of a sledge hammer. The Sturmey-Archer RS-RF3/RX-RD3 and XR*8(W) have a rotary gear selector inboard of the dropouts/fork ends.

I don't mind S-A saying their hubs aren't suitable for off road, but the factory rep should at least know the basic design of his product.

JD


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

I think there's mountain biking, and there's mountain biking. If I were a hard core mountain biker I doubt I'd be using IGH. Since I like riding in the mountains and am prudent where I ride, my Rohloff has proven invaluable. I can't see how my external gear mech could get damaged, but if it did I could take it off, set the gear of choice with a small wrench, and ride out single speed. imho Rohloff is more bomb proof than anything I know of.

finch...you must have 26" wheels. The 16t works for 26's imo, but not so well for 29's if you need a really low gear. I chose my gearing based on gear 11, which is 1 to 1. That's the gear I presumably would spend the most time in. In 11, I'm running 61.4 g.i, or 11 mph at an easy 60 rpm. I'm guessing with your 16t it's slightly higher, but a nice range to be in. I'd rather have more low end than high with my Pugs. 90 g.i for me is over 24 mph @ 90 rpm. Plenty fast.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

suba said:


> I think there's mountain biking, and there's mountain biking. If I were a hard core mountain biker I doubt I'd be using IGH. Since I like riding in the mountains and am prudent where I ride, my Rohloff has proven invaluable. I can't see how my external gear mech could get damaged, but if it did I could take it off, set the gear of choice with a small wrench, and ride out single speed. imho Rohloff is more bomb proof than anything I know of.
> 
> finch...you must have 26" wheels. The 16t works for 26's imo, but not so well for 29's if you need a really low gear. I chose my gearing based on gear 11, which is 1 to 1. That's the gear I presumably would spend the most time in. In 11, I'm running 61.4 g.i, or 11 mph at an easy 60 rpm. I'm guessing with your 16t it's slightly higher, but a nice range to be in. I'd rather have more low end than high with my Pugs. 90 g.i for me is over 24 mph @ 90 rpm. Plenty fast.


my riding is kind of in the middle of nowhere too, in difficult terrain often, so I find the rohloff great as well. I have had the shifter box take a hit or two but only to give it a scratch. I like the way my bike is just always there ready to go with a minimum of fuss. I do ride a 29er...suits the terrain...and I would gladly go lower, just except I don't want to push my luck too far. I think I could go lower without too much risk but I "manage" onthe 36/16. I use 1st a lot when out of shape and wouldn't want it any higher. I gear for 1st, and don't worry about hte rest. Truthfully, most of my pedalling is done in 1-6 gears. trails just go up and down here with little to no flat.


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Sorry assuming you're not riding a 29. You could easily go 17 in my experience. You'd be going from 18.2 / 17.1 in 1st, to 35.5 / 32.4 in 6th, which is pretty meaningful especially with the kind of riding you do. Many times I've been glad for 17.1 as sometimes 19.4 ( you're running 20.6 ) in 2nd just doesn't get it. 

I also went from 175 to 180 cranks. There's a lot of debate over crank length, but it seems 180's give me more leverage and less fatigue.


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## jtrops (Aug 4, 2008)

Strong and simple. I would say if weight doesn't get you too excited the Nuvinci is pretty amazing. I know there are a lot of people who have run it with drive gearing at 32/20 which would be only a 1" difference in final drive between it and the 22/34. It is about the simplest of the geared hubs out there, and the only ones I've heard of blowing out have been motor driven. 

They are heavy, but if that doesn't matter to you the shifting, the range, and the durability coupled with a comparatively low price makes it hard to at least not consider.

I have the old version and I can't be happier with it on my cargo bike. The shifting is so smooth and the stepless gear changes easily make up for the weight for me. I would have been leery of putting the extra weight on a mountain bike before I had the hub, but now I would seriously consider it.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

suba said:


> Sorry assuming you're not riding a 29. You could easily go 17 in my experience. You'd be going from 18.2 / 17.1 in 1st, to 35.5 / 32.4 in 6th, which is pretty meaningful especially with the kind of riding you do. Many times I've been glad for 17.1 as sometimes 19.4 ( you're running 20.6 ) in 2nd just doesn't get it.
> 
> I also went from 175 to 180 cranks. There's a lot of debate over crank length, but it seems 180's give me more leverage and less fatigue.


Thanks Suba...I may try the 17 when the 16 wears out. I'll probably feel a lot more comfortable trying it after a few years on the 16. Low is good!


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## maxforce (Mar 8, 2011)

Wow I had never heard of the Nuvinci but it seems like the best igh ever. I am going to find one for a test ride.

Seems like the perfect strong simple hub.


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## bikeisbetter (Aug 15, 2009)

suba said:


> If I'm not mistaken Rohloff's suggestions for gearing is based on a tandem world class team.


There are two requirements (requirements, not suggestions): one for tandem and fatties over 100 kg application (40/16 being the lowest) and another for the rest of the world (38/16).



suba said:


> the forbidden gearing is forbidden if you're a world class athlete, because then you might over torque the hub. I'm running 36t-17 which gives me 17-90 gear inches. 17 g.i. is really nice with my Pugsley. It climbs like a goat, and since I'm far from a world class athlete ( anymore ) I'm not worried about over stressing the hub.


This logic is flawed. What kills transmissions is peak torque exceeding engineered limits. World class athletes do not produce much peak torque cause they're usually very lean. What makes them world class is the ability to produce a lot of power (usually at high cadence, so again, not that much torque) for extended periods.

One of the secrets of Rohloff Speedhub extraordinary longevity is the low torque input to the hub. By ignoring requirements ensuring this you likely make your hub work flawlessly and without any meaningful wear shorter.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

maxforce said:


> Wow I had never heard of the Nuvinci but it seems like the best igh ever. I am going to find one for a test ride.
> 
> Seems like the perfect strong simple hub.


OOps, I caled it the divinci....


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## john_dalhart (Nov 6, 2009)

finch2 said:


> ...Sram dual drive.... Oh, just saw it doesn't take disc.


Hmph? I believe there's a model that does.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

john_dalhart said:


> Hmph? I believe there's a model that does.


Hey thanks..also for that price I could build up a wheel for fun to try out. I can see I have just planted the seed for another build!


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