# Dedacciai Cro-Mo vs. True Temper OX Platinum



## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

Is there a significant difference between the two tubes when it comes to actual riding and everyday use of the completed frame? Also, which tubeset would benefit more to lugged silver brazed construction methods?

The True Temper OX Platinum is +$150 premium to the Dedacciai. There was a similar topic posted in the Kona forums on MTBR with the exact same title but it was just asking about why Kona decided to change from TT OX to Dedacciai.

Any input from experienced builders would be appreciated~!


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

Dedacciai is a manufacturer and makes a whole series of steel tubes, which one is being used? OX Plat is a specific line of tubing made by True Temper. Deda makes stuff comparable to OX Plat depending on what series tubing it is.


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## longcat (Apr 24, 2008)

illnacord said:


> Is there a significant difference between the two tubes when it comes to actual riding and everyday use of the completed frame? Also, which tubeset would benefit more to lugged silver brazed construction methods?


I doubt it if the tubes are the same diameter and to a much much less degree wall thickness.

I heard reynolds 631 responds good to brazing, it gets stronger/harder where it has been heated.


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

Themanmonkey, the Dedacciai tubing set is "CrMo" ... I was unable to find anything on that tubeset as COM 12.5 and the like are the only ones that come up from research. COM 12.5 is also the tubeset on my 21.5" Bianchi SASS and the enhanced ride is noticeable compared to the 4130 Raleigh XXIX (minus the geometry differences).

At this point without education, I'm assuming "CrMo" is Dedacciai's bottom line tubeset but so long as "CrMo" is equal to 12.5 it's all good. 

longcat: OX platinum's main draw from reading on henryjames.com is that it hardens where heated so there is a better fatigue life. I haven't considered Reynolds or Columbus.


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

And then you have these $200 853 Reynolds 21" frames at Nashbar brand new. WTF?!


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## longcat (Apr 24, 2008)

Ox plat _may_ be the same alloy as 631/853, dont know. From what I've heard its called 4340 in all other industries.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

illnacord said:


> And then you have these $200 853 Reynolds 21" frames at Nashbar brand new. WTF?!


I have not seen them in person but sometimes, honestly its only the tube that has the sticker on it that is 853. The rest could just be plain ol' 4130. You never really know with that stuff. My guess is that it is the former.

The whole thing being 853 is a possibility and is always a frustration for any framebuilder in that whole frames cost the same as or less than the raw material in the U.S. Hard to compete with that

Dave B
Bohemian Bicycles


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

longcat: thanks! I did a search for 4340 tubing sets came up with a bunch of suppliers talking numbers and digits I don't understand.

Dave: cool site, like the dropouts and the orange crush concept. One of my notable childhood and adulthood treats. And you're right, 200 man hours for a $4,000 frameset isn't bad. But da*n, that is some obsessing!!!


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## ong (Jun 26, 2006)

Dave --

The Nashbar site claims: "TIG-welded double butted Reynolds 853 air-hardened steel (legendary for its strength and liveliness) make up the main triangle while externally tapered 4130 chromoly makes up the rear stays."

I assume it's just massive volume breaks that makes that possible, and that they're probably not calling Dillsburg or Nova to order $65 worth of tubes at a time!

I had a sort of funny experience when I went out to Tube Service here in Portland to pick up some 4130 to build a few racks. I was getting 35' of 3/8" tubing, which I needed them to cut into 6' lengths so I could strap them on my Xtracycle. It was all of a $100 order, but they were very gracious about it. Meanwhile, they were loading these enormous 3' wide sewer pipes in 32' lengths onto flatbed trucks. I felt pretty silly wandering around in the industrial district on my bicycle...


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Ong. Yes there are really big breaks for ordering in larger quantities. Sometimes more than 50-60% off of list. This is also one of the minor issues with building in very small quantities in that you get no real economy of scale.

I feel like that all the time(silly) 

Dave B
Bohemian


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## nateknutson (Mar 15, 2008)

longcat said:


> Ox plat _may_ be the same alloy as 631/853, dont know. From what I've heard its called 4340 in all other industries.


OX Plat and 853 are similar alloys from what I understand and compete more or less directly against one another. They have similar listed properties (strength, etc). The most commonly used gauges of each have similar wall thicknesses.

According to Reynolds, 631 is the same alloy as 853, but not supplied in heat treated form like 853 is. This makes it weaker, with a listed tensile strength just a notch above regular 4130, and so like 4130 it's not really strong enough to allow ultra thin tubes, (although a 7/4/7 631 tube is available, probably with very light riders in mind). However, what's cool about it is that compared to 853/OX Plat, it's more workable, more ductile, less brittle, cheaper, and compared to 4130 it has the massive advantage of not losing strength in the heat affect zones. That's my understanding from the research I've done, anyway; someone please correct me if I'm wrong - I might hold my tongue since I haven't actually worked with any of these tubes, but specific info on 631 is kind of hard to find.


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## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

dbohemian said:


> Ong. Yes there are really big breaks for ordering in larger quantities. Sometimes more than 50-60% off of list. This is also one of the minor issues with building in very small quantities in that you get no real economy of scale.
> 
> I feel like that all the time(silly)
> 
> ...


worth it for every framebuilder in the region to place a collective mass order at once and everyone shows up on sunday to divy up the cheaper goods then huh?


yeah those nashbar frames have me itching... 853 is REALLY excessive for my daughter.. but I'm finding cheap schwinn low-end alloy frames in her size for 150$ on the 'bay... hard to argue with the extra 50 bones for an 853 tubeset!


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

ong said:


> Dave --
> 
> The Nashbar site claims: "TIG-welded double butted Reynolds 853 air-hardened steel (legendary for its strength and liveliness) make up the main triangle while externally tapered 4130 chromoly makes up the rear stays."
> 
> ...


The Nashbar frames also were ~$600 when first offered. They have been on closeout for at least a year. If they are offering only 21" frames now they are probably the tail end and below cost.


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## longcat (Apr 24, 2008)

nateknutson said:


> OX Plat and 853 are similar alloys from what I understand and compete more or less directly against one another. They have similar listed properties (strength, etc). The most commonly used gauges of each have similar wall thicknesses.
> 
> According to Reynolds, 631 is the same alloy as 853, but not supplied in heat treated form like 853 is. This makes it weaker, with a listed tensile strength just a notch above regular 4130, and so like 4130 it's not really strong enough to allow ultra thin tubes, (although a 7/4/7 631 tube is available, probably with very light riders in mind). However, what's cool about it is that compared to 853/OX Plat, it's more workable, more ductile, less brittle, cheaper, and compared to 4130 it has the massive advantage of not losing strength in the heat affect zones. That's my understanding from the research I've done, anyway; someone please correct me if I'm wrong - I might hold my tongue since I haven't actually worked with any of these tubes, but specific info on 631 is kind of hard to find.


I too think 631 seems like a much better idea propertywise for a bikeframe than the harder more brittle ones. When I get a custom it will be a 631 one, thin diameter but thick walls.


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## ted wojcik (Mar 12, 2006)

*Tubing differences*

For this discussion, let's disregard the stresses that can be built into a frame. What you feel when you ride a bike is rigidity. All steels used in frame building have the same Young's Modulus. That is the stiffness. Young's Modulus cannot be manipulated by alloying. It doesn't make any difference if the tube is made out of 1010 mild steel or 853 or Columbus Niobium, the modulus is the same. The will be no difference in the ride of the frame if the tubes of different manufacturers have the same dimensions. That is, diameter, butt length, transition, gauge, and taper. What does change is UTS, ultimate tensile strength, and yield strength, the force that must be applied to permanently deform the material. Another important property to consider is percentage of elongation. That is how much it will stretch before breaking. . The minimum I look for is 10%. I don't know of any of the popular steel frame tubing that doesn't meet this standard. Ride characteristics are pretty much manipulated by tube diameter. There is a huge stock list of steel tubes that allow a custom builder to mix and match tubing to give their frames a distinctive ride with unparalleled strength.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

longcat said:


> I too think 631 seems like a much better idea propertywise for a bikeframe than the harder more brittle ones. When I get a custom it will be a 631 one, thin diameter but thick walls.


Interesting thought.


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