# WANTED! Someone with CNC lathe for proto



## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Dudes,

I want to get some truncated cones machined up so I can make some tapered headtubes. Not sure it can be done manually, it's pretty fine work.

Anyone got access to a CNC lathe, or know someone who does and could make a couple of prototypes?


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## smdubovsky (Apr 27, 2007)

For a press? Can it be done w/ a taper attachment? No CNCs, but both my lathes have one.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

At the risk of blowing all my cookies, this is what I want.


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## Andy FitzGibbon (Jul 7, 2007)

Thylacine said:


> Not sure it can be done manually, it's pretty fine work.


With a skilled operator, anything that can be done on a CNC machine can be done manually. That's how they did it before CNC machines were invented...


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## Monte (Dec 20, 2003)

Andy FitzGibbon said:


> With a skilled operator,*lots of things* that can be done on a CNC machine can be done manually. That's how they did it before CNC machines were invented...


fixed it for you.


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## smdubovsky (Apr 27, 2007)

Andy FitzGibbon said:


> With a skilled operator, anything that can be done on a CNC machine can be done manually. That's how they did it before CNC machines were invented...


Thats not 100% true. Thread milling: AFAIK, came about after CNC so there are no manual machines w/ the capability (though it could be invented). Complex/'organic' shapes: Say for plastic injection molds. Cherrying heads can cut a simple elliptical path, but a surface beyond that complexity isn't possible. I guess you could use a small tracer but doing that into tool steel wouldn't be fun CNC has made some shapes not only possible, but easy.

Edit: Monte types faster than me

Ok, I see you want part of the HTs themselves (I was originally thinking a cone for pressing/swaging to *MAKE* the HTs.) That could be done on a manual machine w/ just swinging the compound. After cutting the ID, even w/ a CNC, I think you'd need to make a close fitting internal mandrel to hold it to be able to machine the outside accurately (maybe even from an expanding collet type). 1mm is getting pretty thin. Im guessing you'll want it out of 4140 or similar. How many you looking for?


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

smdubovsky said:


> Thats not 100% true. Thread milling: AFAIK, came about after CNC so there are no manual machines w/ the capability (though it could be invented). Complex/'organic' shapes: Say for plastic injection molds. Cherrying heads can cut a simple elliptical path, but a surface beyond that complexity isn't possible. I guess you could use a small tracer but doing that into tool steel wouldn't be fun CNC has made some shapes not only possible, but easy.


It was possible, just not easy. Hydraulic tracer and relay controlled lathes/mills do all that & more. You make the parent//template/pattern by hand or whatever and you go from there. For manual mill, it's just a matter of how many setups you want to make and blending you have to do with files & stones. On manual lathes you'd make tool frames to cut complex shapes. I can't tell you how many hours I wasted as a teen standing in front of my Dad's two Waddell relay controlled tracer lathes making various oddball parts when I should have been out chasing girls. 

For what Warwick wants, that can easily be done on a manual lathe.


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## Andy FitzGibbon (Jul 7, 2007)

smdubovsky said:


> Thats not 100% true. Thread milling: AFAIK, came about after CNC so there are no manual machines w/ the capability (though it could be invented). Complex/'organic' shapes: Say for plastic injection molds. Cherrying heads can cut a simple elliptical path, but a surface beyond that complexity isn't possible. I guess you could use a small tracer but doing that into tool steel wouldn't be fun CNC has made some shapes not only possible, but easy.
> 
> Edit: Monte types faster than me


Thread milling has been around way longer than CNC- since the 1920's at least- on dedicated thread milling machines. Do a Google search for "Pratt & Whitney Model B thread mill" to see some (now woefully obsolete) thread milling machines. 
"Organic" type shapes were accomplished manually for years before CNC was around, via tracers (as DWF describes), or via mechanically controlled die-sinking and milling machines. A Kearney-Trecker 2D rotary head mill with all the attachments can generate some incredibly complex shapes, if you know how to set it up (which is a skill in itself). After all, CNC has really only been economically viable for most industries since the 1970s- how do you think plastic injection molds (among many other complex shapes) were made before then?

I can't think of any CNC machining job today that couldn't also have been done years ago by a skilled machinist with the appropriate machines and tooling at hand. Sorry to get off topic, but it it's annoying when folks who don't know the history of the machine tool industry in America assume that CNC made possible a whole bunch of things it didn't.

Oh, and Monte might type faster than you, but he is incorrect 

Andy


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

I think part of the equation to saying that something was "possible" is the cost involved. A one off 3D machined part will cost a lot less today because of the CNC hardware and software that has become common place.


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## smdubovsky (Apr 27, 2007)

DWF/Andy. Im aware of tracers (and mentioned them). But you still have to make the orig part to duplicate. Say I want to generate a cam or ramp w/ y=ln(x) shape (or parabolic, or hyperbolic, or *gasp* a 3d combination of them.) How are you going to do that w/ anything manual? Even things like the KT 2D rotary head (like the cherrying head I mentioned) are limited to circles / ellipses. Some arcs/shapes just aren't that simple. What before you'd have to invent an entire machine to do you can now cut in minutes.



Andy FitzGibbon said:


> ...how do you think plastic injection molds (among many other complex shapes) were made before then?


Same way they are today. But plastic parts of 20+ yrs ago looked *A LOT* more square. It was sometimes impossible and usually never economical to make something 'organic' back then.

But back to OPs question: I too think they can be done manually.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

smdubovsky said:


> DWF/Andy. Im aware of tracers (and mentioned them). But you still have to make the orig part to duplicate. Say I want to generate a cam or ramp w/ y=ln(x) shape (or parabolic, or hyperbolic, or *gasp* a 3d combination of them.) How are you going to do that w/ anything manual? Even things like the KT 2D rotary head (like the cherrying head I mentioned) are limited to circles / ellipses. Some arcs/shapes just aren't that simple. What before you'd have to invent an entire machine to do you can now cut in minutes.
> 
> Same way they are today. But plastic parts of 20+ yrs ago looked *A LOT* more square. It was sometimes impossible and usually never economical to make something 'organic' back then.
> 
> But back to OPs question: I too think they can be done manually.


It can all be done manually. It's all math, what CNC does is give you convenient motion control. You have to remember that you don't just have to move the cutter, you can move the part and control the cutting motion. Think cam & crankshaft milling/turning/grinding. With a universal milling machine and a dividing head you can make any cam in any shape you want.


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## Andy FitzGibbon (Jul 7, 2007)

smdubovsky said:


> DWF/Andy. Im aware of tracers (and mentioned them). But you still have to make the orig part to duplicate. Say I want to generate a cam or ramp w/ y=ln(x) shape (or parabolic, or hyperbolic, or *gasp* a 3d combination of them.) How are you going to do that w/ anything manual? Even things like the KT 2D rotary head (like the cherrying head I mentioned) are limited to circles / ellipses. Some arcs/shapes just aren't that simple. What before you'd have to invent an entire machine to do you can now cut in minutes.


Screw machine setup men have been generating complex cams on universal mills since the advent of fully automatic screw machines (around 1870-1875). 
A K&T 2D can work in 3D, by using the 2D cherrying attachment, the powered rotary table attachment, and the head and table feeds.



smdubovsky said:


> But plastic parts of 20+ yrs ago looked *A LOT* more square. It was sometimes impossible and usually never economical to make something 'organic' back then.


What about all the Art Nouveau/Art Deco bakelite radios, clocks, jewelry, car interior parts, light fixtures, ect. made in the 1920s and 1930s?

I freely admit that operations that can be performed in minutes on a CNC today were extremely difficult and expensive before, but that wasn't the question. The question was "could they be done on a manual machine" and the answer is yes.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

DWF said:


> It can all be done manually.


I spent a long time looking at this once.... The Apollo moon rock return cases.










I think it was predominantly cast and then machined but it was nutty....It's cost was probably immense... You could do anything, Just hard to fathom how long these took but it is the ultimate luggage no?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Geez you guys can dribble-on. 

Who wants to make a few?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

smdubovsky said:


> Ok, I see you want part of the HTs themselves (I was originally thinking a cone for pressing/swaging to *MAKE* the HTs.)


I got a quote from TT to have the tubes made like that (taper-swaged), but they came back to me with a sort-of approximation of what I wanted which didn't inspire confidence.

Anyway, I'm not ready to pony up 2k+ for a run of tubes at this early stage - I like the idea of prototyping things before biting off more than I can chew.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Actually looks like a simple build / design. No need for a CNC machine when you could turn one on a lathe. $2K for that is complete BS. I would want a little nicer lathe than what I have for this type of work if you expect complete precision out of the prototype. Also I'd want to turn it out of some heavier duty tool steel for it to be reliable and usable. I'll check with a few friends and see what we could come up with.

Now someone mentioned cookies?


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## Monte (Dec 20, 2003)

Andy FitzGibbon"Organic" type shapes were accomplished manually for years before CNC was around said:


> I wasn't thinking "manual" = "tracer". I was thinking manual = operator and handwheels. You know, "manual".
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> ...


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

This doesn't have to be made from tool steel, crikey.


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## Andy FitzGibbon (Jul 7, 2007)

Monte said:


> I wasn't thinking "manual" = "tracer". I was thinking manual = operator and handwheels. You know, "manual".


There are lots of manual tracer machines out there that have handwheels, and require a skilled operator to function. They are called "Manual Tracers", to differentiate them from "Automatic Tracers", which for the most part are auto-cycle and require an operator mostly to load and unload parts.
If anyone feels the need to discuss this further (I don't), send a PM. We've already taken up way too much OT space in Warwick's thread.

Warwick: any decent manual machine shop ought to be able to make your part. Going manual would probably be best if you only want a few for prototyping. 
You could also get a quote from www.emachineshop.com
Andy


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

Try super rat machine. I would think they would be able to make these for you.


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

Francis Buxton said:


> Try super rat machine. I would think they would be able to make these for you.


I'm not sure Super Rat is still in business. Todd @ Black Cat had to find a new source for the dropouts a while back. I heard from Phil a couple of days ago and he said he was moving stuff into storage.


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

what about Emachineshop?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I'd rather give my cash to an actual guy with a machine in a shed somewhere.


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

Thylacine said:


> I'd rather give my cash to an actual guy with a machine in a shed somewhere.


 I agree. Paragon does custom stuff don't they?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I don't want to bother Mark, I'm all out of bothering tokens. Might try Dave at DKG....


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> I'd rather give my cash to an actual guy with a machine in a shed somewhere.


Doood, does no one in Oz own a lathe? It's got to be cheaper to have done there.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

Dazza has two, but I guess the one still in the shipping crates probably doesn't count.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

DWF said:


> Doood, does no one in Oz own a lathe? It's got to be cheaper to have done there.


Have you ever been here?

Cheapest quote I have so far is AUD250 a piece. Reckon I can do better than that in the US?

Nothing is cheaper in Australia mate, _absolutely nothing_. The US Bike industry is a fantastic resource, much more easily accessible than the AU one. You honestly think if I could do everything here as easily I would? It's ****ing impossible to get **** done here.

I gave a tubeset to a local builder here once to build some real simple stock frames, and in 6 weeks he'd welded a BB to the seat tube.

I used another local builder and had _no_ frames ready for a trade show. Ever been to a trade show with no frames, and you're sharing a booth with the guy who stooged you?

No whinging, just take my cash alright and do what you do best.

Farrrrrk.



Don't get me started.

Or I'll get them made in Taiwan where people actually work for a living!


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

AUD$250 to do one piece for a prototype doesn't sound over the top, particularly if its machined to 5 significant figures. There's probably a couple of hours work involved and a decent lump of steel needed to boot.

Like the other guys have said, give the emachineshop stuff a go. Draw (or import) your design into their CAD packaged and it'll give you an online quote for the job almost instantly and you can also see how the unit price changes depending on how many you order.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Okay, kewl, RFQ's are out there......


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## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

Warwick, I emailed you a shop yesterday at [email protected]. Hope it didn't get filtered.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Nah got it, thanks for that mate.


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## joshuagore (Oct 15, 2009)

In response to "It can all be done manually"

I lurk here, but I am going to butt in from an injection/blow molding perspective.

Nothing machined via pattern(duplicator, pantograph or whatever), of an organic shape, was ever put on a press and shot, with the results being the likeness of the pattern, without first seeing the careful and skilled hands of the mold finisher/polisher.

If by manually you mean finishing by hand, then yes. 

Josh

p.s. Sent op's drawing to shop for rfq


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