# Ebikes Speeding On Popular San Clemente Trail



## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

San Clemente plans to enforce 10 mph speed limit on beach path, after complaints about reckless driving of electric bikes | Best OC Sign Company

SAN CLEMENTE - In response to complaints about riders speeding along the city's popular beach trail on electric bikes, San Clemente officials are planning to step up enforcement - citing those riding at excessive speeds or otherwise operating their bicycles recklessly.

The City Council on Tuesday, Aug. 21, voted 4-0 in favor of an ordinance that calls for ticketing bicycles ridden in excess of the posted 10 mph speed limit and agreed that all bikes should be prohibited on the beaches during the summer.

Enforcement of the new ordinance will be done by city-hired park monitors, the city's Marine Safety Department, and Orange County sheriff's deputies when they are available. Specific fines, and exact summer bike restriction dates, are yet to be determined.

The ordinance is set for final review at the council's Sept. 4 meeting.

Currently, all bicycles - including electric - are allowed on the trail but are restricted in certain areas at various times of the year. From June 15 until Labor Day, bicycles are prohibited from being on the trail from the pier to Trafalgar Canyon Bridge. From Labor Day to June 14, bicycles can be used everywhere except for the Riviera and Montalvo bridges.

"I'm struggling with this. How do you assess 10 miles per hour in a meaningful way?" said Mayor Tim Brown. "I'd like to see us give folks the ability to cite anyone that is unsafe. The citation has to be meaningful. It has to be something that will hurt a little bit. We should give folks that monitor this discretion. I'm against an all-out prohibition."

The council decided to allow electric bikes (except "type 3" bikes, which can reach 28 mph) along the 2 1/2-mile beach trail that runs from North Beach to San Clemente State Beach. City officials are following state law enacted in 2016 that made it legal for electric bicycles to be treated the same was as non-electric bicycles. The law made it possible for cities to create their own regulation.

"We're the only ones with a beach trail," said Samantha Thomas, the city's recreation manager. "It's not a boardwalk like Newport Beach has or even what Laguna Beach has. We're the only one with a narrow trail directly on the beach."

Tuesday's vote follows earlier discussions by the city's Beaches, Parks and Recreation Commission which in April voted to prohibit electric bicycles unless they were being used to assist someone with a disability. The commission's review came after complaints from beach trail users who said some electric bike riders were speeding.

Most residents who spoke at Tuesday's meeting supported greater enforcement of the 10 mph speed limit. Others wanted to see electric bikes prohibited altogether.

"Don't add more regulations. rather enforce the ones that exist," said resident Brenda Miller. "I've had people tell me they were going to walk Dana Point Harbor because they were treated like slaloms - that's not acceptable. The beach trail is the only opportunity to have a beautiful, quiet experience. Let's keep in mind it's a tremendous resource. Don't let a few spoil it for everyone."

Resident C.L. Snider said electric bikes should be disallowed, referring to them as motorized vehicles.

"Two-and-a-half million people use the beach trail a year," he said. "That means there could be 10 million arms and legs that could be hit. If you enforce the rules and laws, including no motorized vehicles, that would include electric bikes."

Mike Dollar, a lifelong user of the beach trail, also pushed for enforcement.

"I'm a daily user there, either walking, biking or pushing my grand-kids," he said. "Let's enforce the laws and set a speed limit."


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm not surprised. I'm just as opposed to (automatically) allowing electric bikes on paved non-motorized paths as I am for off-road trails. As illustrated in the article above defining electric powered bicycles as "non-motorized" can tarnish the bicycles image and burden cyclists with unnecessary rules.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

mtnbikej said:


> San Clemente plans to enforce 10 mph speed limit on beach path, after complaints about reckless driving of electric bikes | Best OC Sign Company
> 
> SAN CLEMENTE - In response to complaints about riders speeding along the city's popular beach trail on electric bikes, San Clemente officials are planning to step up enforcement - citing those riding at excessive speeds or otherwise operating their bicycles recklessly.
> 
> ...


Seattle recently put notices on the Myrtle Edwards Park on the waterfront indicating that it was a test section for ebike usage, which was surprising because I see tons and am passed by tons of ebikes on that trail every day. However I am hoping that means enforcement some as I have definitely been passed by ebikes going 20-25mph and it is a very well used MUP in the city with plenty of tourists, dog walkers and families, not to mention clueless tourists on bike shares weaving and randomly stopping all over the trail. They have set a 15mph speed limit but we will see if they actually enforce anything. For seattle at least I think this has to do with Lime Bike introducing the Lime E-bikes this year and wanting to ensure that there was some legality to people, tourists, using them in an area that was strictly defined as no motorized vehicles, which as far as I know in Seattle means e-bikes too.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

mtnbikej said:


> "I'm struggling with this. How do you assess 10 miles per hour in a meaningful way?"


Simple. Just ban electric bicycles. Correct me if I'm wrong but there wasn't a problem before they showed up?


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

There's a sign that says to "Walk Bike on Bridge", which is narrower than the natural surface trail below. These guys are riding, which is stretching the rules already. The ones treating it as a slalom, esp at high speed, when it's crowded are probably assholes, considering that it sounds like there's already a 10 mph limit, which isn't enforced. They probably were just looking to have fun on their bikes, while others just want to be near a beautiful place. The latter probably just doesn't understand why the bikers specifically came here to have their fun, as you don't need that speed to enjoy the beauty.

[HR][/HR]

Wonder what's gonna happen to other crowded places like the Brooklyn Bridge, where pedestrians routinely go into the bike lane, and there are a bunch of tourists stopped, forcing traffic to go around. New Yorkers are already used to dealing with assholes, but there's a greater majority on foot that can have a larger voice. They can call for a ban, rather than call for expansion to give more room, especially if the cyclists aren't riding in that location for something useful. "Regular cyclists" getting defensive at the thought of regulation, are likely to direct the blame of new issues arising at ebikes...






If you were a considerate person, you'd pass at a speed that was reasonable for how close you're to the traffic. These locals are worried about their arms getting knocked. Some bikes are hard to ride in a straight line at low speed, wandering like some bikes do on climbs (~6 mph or less). If you are in complete control, having good brakes and a good handling bike, you might look out of place passing at higher speed, despite it being fairly safe except when others, like pets and children, make unexpected moves into your path. Us mtbers pass at speed on singletrack all the time and I hear the same thing from other trail users, hikers and equestrians, that they don't like sharing the trail with bikers, prefering to hike where it's hikers only. There probably was a time when they were still on the trails and we were forced to go slow, but if they have disappeared and bikes are the clear majority, I bet you're all riding as if there were no speed limit.

For anyone feeling judgmental, take a look at this and post up how you feel:

Brooklyn bridge ridden at speed at night, with pedestrians present (10-20 mph): 



 (rider comments that it feels like a roller coaster and is how it should be).

[HR][/HR]

*shrug* I get the impression that what's happening is that those from the typical "Spartan/warrior" culture (training for fitness, inspired by racers) or "motorhead" culture are taking their liberties a bit too far and affecting the more peaceful folk, which include the casual cyclists. Can tell who's a Spartan type by how they call others weak, slow, and lazy, and who's a motorhead by how they talk about the looks and "stats" of their customized ride (like how fast it rides, arguably even if it doesn't have a motor)... 

My judgement is that considering the comment of the one who said it's not right for someone to opt hike another place instead, due to the types of riders at San Clemente, it sounds akin to peaceful/casual people fighting back to avoid takeover by the Spartans and motorheads. You know the types, the ones that drive like grannies, trying to follow the rules of the road, while you think they're in the way and that "everyone else" is driving at least 15% faster over the limit.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> View attachment 1213318
> For anyone feeling judgmental, take a look at this and post up how you feel:


I wasn't really feeling judgmental but anyway here's how I feel about the vid- It has very little to do with this thread.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

> View attachment 1213318
> 
> 
> [HR][/HR]
> ...


Couldn't figure out how to offend any other demographic groups?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mtnbikej said:


> SAN CLEMENTE - In response to complaints about riders speeding along the city's popular beach trail on electric bikes, San Clemente officials are planning to step up enforcement - citing those riding at excessive speeds or otherwise operating their bicycles recklessly.
> 
> The City Council on Tuesday, Aug. 21, voted 4-0 in favor of an ordinance that calls for ticketing bicycles ridden in excess of the posted 10 mph speed limit and agreed that all bikes should be prohibited on the beaches during the summer.


so while YES a pedal bike can be ridden above 10mph, this was not a problem until the eBike came along since riding an eBike above 10mph requires much less effort.

My guess is the eBikes in use here are the beach cruiser types, not eMTB's.

*So when members of this site(myself included) speculated that eBikes would lead to more speed on trails and that increase in speed due to a motor would lead to more conflict and increase prohibitions on bikes, they were correct in said speculation......*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> *So when members of this site(myself included) speculated that eBikes would lead to more speed on trails and that increase in speed due to a motor would lead to more conflict and increase prohibitions on bikes, they were correct in said speculation......*


Not rocket science, is it?


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Klurejr said:


> so while YES a pedal bike can be ridden above 10mph, this was not a problem until the eBike came along since riding an eBike above 10mph requires much less effort.
> 
> My guess is the eBikes in use here are the beach cruiser types, not eMTB's.
> 
> ...


Fundamental question is why they are riding ebikes there in particular? I posted a pic specifically of the trail. If it's crowded during the summer months, there's merit behind the regulation, but I believe in less regulation. This problem is solved with better etiquette or better design.









Not sure if the above is part of the trail, but it's one of the images I get when I look it up.

This link has info on how to tour the area by bike, which sounds like a reason to bike these trails: https://encyclepedia.wordpress.com/tag/dana-point/

I am wondering if there's a lack of interesting places to have fun on an ebike, which results in that area being a destination to joyride. Too much pedestrian traffic to even bother with an ebike, if you're wanting to ride at higher speed.

This blog article says they saw tons of dogs on the trails, and that it's a 3-4 mile out-n-back: https://www.gohikeit.com/2014/07/san-clemente-beach-trail.html/

Another blog that details the actual trail in question (the trail has staircases): https://californiathroughmylens.com/san-clemente-beach-trail

Review of the trail: "Walked this trail today. It's a chilly (for S Cal) Saturday in February. Unpaved but well groomed. Very narrow. Lots of walkers with dogs and strollers. It was difficult walking through with a dog in tow. Would not bike it unless it was very very early. Can be done but not worth the short ride."

Gotta consider the context. The pedestrians are king on that "popular" trail. Well, at least they took the issue to a vote after tolerating bikes for a while now, rather than preempt it.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

ninjichor said:


> Fundamental question is why they are riding ebikes there in particular? I posted a pic specifically of the trail. If it's crowded during the summer months, there's merit behind the regulation, but I believe in less regulation. This problem is solved with better etiquette or better design.
> 
> View attachment 1213386
> 
> ...


Come on dude, are you just being obtuse? The e mo's ride there because they can, and they're causing problems. You can try to 'splain it away, but it ain't going away. Bejeezus, some of y'all are SO silly!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

It’s too narrow and to crowded for inexperienced ebike riders. I’m sure we’re going to see many of these articles. Anti ebikers rejoice!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Anti ebikers rejoice!


I don't think Rejoice is the right word. Examples like this are bad for all bicyclist, motorized or not.

At least in this case the end result is a speed limit that will be enforced and not a total ban of bikes. But each governing body or land manager will make their own decisions based on the circumstances.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

This thread has pulled out most of the anti ebike posters, including yourself. Yes, go ahead and celebrate 🎉


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

mbmb65 said:


> Come on dude, are you just being obtuse? The e mo's ride there because they can, and they're causing problems. You can try to 'splain it away, but it ain't going away. Bejeezus, some of y'all are SO silly!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you implying that's the motive? Is there not any possibility of another motive?

It was implied that these rules affect bicyclists because of ebikers. What's affected: 3-4 mi out-n-back ride through a *popular* trail with pedestrians and dogs. Popular typically means that it attracts a lot of people, and these images betray that with how few people are on them.

I'm obtuse for trying to point out that these issues tend to be much deeper/complex? Are you accepting that this this is ALL because of ebikes? Is there not some kind of backstory? The images I found don't show a crowded trail. Not really concerned about enforcement of the existing 10 mph rule, but I want to know if there's other reasons why are bikes were banned during the summer. I posted the Brooklyn bridge story, about narrow and crowded not really being an issue. One difference between the Brooklyn bridge and this is that this has shops lining the trail...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ninjichor said:


> Are you implying that's the motive? Is there not any possibility of another motive?
> 
> It was implied that these rules affect bicyclists because of ebikers. What's affected: 3-4 mi out-n-back ride through a *popular* trail with pedestrians and dogs. Popular typically means that it attracts a lot of people, and these images betray that with how few people are on them.
> 
> I'm obtuse for trying to point out that these issues tend to be much deeper/complex? Are you accepting that this this is ALL because of ebikes? Is there not some kind of backstory? The images I found don't show a crowded trail. Not really concerned about enforcement of the existing 10 mph rule, but I want to know if there's other reasons why are bikes were banned during the summer.


The solutions tend to be shallow and simple now matter how "deep" and "complex" you wish to spin it.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

This could be one of the main reasons. Narrower in some places than I thought. "Wall" of pedestrians spanning the entire width for scale. The bushy overgrowth beyond them looks like it further narrows the path.

There can be the potential of these people just being overdramatic and wanting their safe space too...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ninjichor said:


> View attachment 1213398
> 
> 
> This could be one of the main reasons. Narrower in some places than I thought. "Wall" of pedestrians spanning the entire width for scale.


Pretty simple reason.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Gutch said:


> This thread has pulled out most of the anti ebike posters, including yourself. Yes, go ahead and celebrate 🎉


There is nothing to be happy about. eBikes will cause problems but trying to regulate just them will prove too complex in some situations and the result will be a ban on all bikes. What's good about that?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

It’s a tight beach trail in CALIFORNIA. Hell NY banned all ebikes in NYC, the biggest city in the US, then turned it over and completely welcomes them. Maybe I should post that article. Slightly more people in NYC versus beach trail. It’s futile.


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

Gutch said:


> It's a tight beach trail in CALIFORNIA. Hell NY banned all ebikes in NYC, the biggest city in the US, then turned it over and completely welcomes them. Maybe I should post that article. Slightly more people in NYC versus beach trail. It's futile.


What's your point?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

The point is there is they are going to be allowed in some areas and not in others. I agreed they shouldn’t be allowed on an over populated skinny beach trail.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> The point is there is they are going to be allowed in some areas and not in others. I agreed they shouldn't be allowed on an over populated skinny beach trail.


That may be your point but I think the point of this thread is that by classifying electric bikes as "non-motorized" and therefore permitting them on bike/pedestrian paths or trails problems could arise that might adversely affect pedestrians and thus saddle cyclists with rules, regulations, and potential bans that otherwise would have never occurred.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

True, JB. That’s the industries doing.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Gutch said:


> This thread has pulled out most of the anti ebike posters, including yourself. Yes, go ahead and celebrate 🎉


Just because I have concerns about what the higher speed of eBikes could do to access does not mean I am anti-eBike.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Gutch said:


> It's too narrow and to crowded for inexperienced ebike riders. I'm sure we're going to see many of these articles. Anti ebikers rejoice!


Or you could say, Yes some of your concerns are real, maybe ebikes shouldn't be allowed everywhere.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> That may be your point but I think the point of this thread is that by classifying electric bikes as "non-motorized" and therefore permitting them on bike/pedestrian paths or trails problems could arise that might adversely affect pedestrians and thus saddle cyclists with rules, regulations, and potential bans that otherwise would have never occurred.


 This I agree with. I think the conversation would be totally different if the motorcycle industry had been the first one to jump on the ebike cash cow. I bet companies like Trek or spesh would be against them.
The Brooklyn bridge vid shows how dumb people are and they are ignorant about other people. But you will never see areas closed to pedestrians will you. We are the minority and will need to ride carefully to maintain any access we already have.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

rlee said:


> This I agree with. I think the conversation would be totally different if the motorcycle industry had been the first one to jump on the ebike cash cow. I bet companies like Trek or spesh would be against them.
> The Brooklyn bridge vid shows how dumb people are and they are ignorant about other people. But you will never see areas closed to pedestrians will you. We are the minority and will need to ride carefully to maintain any access we already have.


Plenty of areas closed to pedestrians, especially motor vehicle designated areas.

Motos did come out with ebikes before this got big in mtb. Are you sure they didn't come out with ebikes first? Maybe you just don't see 'em cause you're not being targeted by their advertising.

One of the first advertised to us was the Hanebrink. There's that $500 crowdfunded one, from Sondors, that no one worried about. Seems people only brought up a stink when they actually came out with something that rivaled a regular mtn bike's singletrack experience, and became big enough to warrant legal definitions to show what was allowed where. The precise moment they were considered to be legal where other bicycles were, as long as they were limited to 20mph and under 750W, is when outrage began, since these were probably considered motor vehicles before.

There's now the Sur Ron, Alta Shift, and numerous "road legal" moto bikes. Being road legal is a big deal, as well as being clean enough to bring into living areas. People often point to the Stealth Bomber ebike, but was that ever advertised or sent for review by mtb media, or marketed to be allowed where bicycles were?


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## dstepper (Feb 28, 2004)

The new electric scooters can go more than 10 miles a hour. 

Newport and Huntington Beach have many electric beach cruisers rental stores. Some rent bikes that are not pedal assist with very large batteries, so going slow to conserve battery life is not a concern. So yes many riding these bikes on the beach strands that have very poor bike skills.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Yea, eScooters are getting recommended through word of mouth for people needing to get around short distances in metro areas like SF: https://swagtron.com/electric-scooter-swagger-sg-5-escooter

They're even showing up in "bikeshare" schemes (e.g. LimeBike), but the people who don't use them don't like them being left around randomly.

$399 is much more easy to stomach. Not sure why people are worried about randoms getting on emtbs that cost over 4k to be worthy on real mtb singletrack. The ones that spend that much on mtbs are the mtb enthusiasts who previously opened up to spending 3000+ on bikes. Others will be balking that they can get real motorcycles, cars, or other stuff for that money.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ninjichor said:


> Yea, eScooters are getting recommended to each other through word of mouth for people needing to get around short distances in metro areas like SF: https://swagtron.com/electric-scooter-swagger-sg-5-escooter
> 
> They're even showing up in "bikeshare" schemes (e.g. LimeBike), but the people who don't use them don't like them being left around randomly.


What's that got to do with mountain biking?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Hmm, ban ebikes and allow weed?? After all, I’d much rather have a bunch of stoners driving around than ebikes😂 Maybe stoners on ebikes? Hmm..


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

The popularity of ebike rentals is a leading indicator of ebike sales: people will rent before they buy or they will rent on a whim and like it enough to buy. This is similar to other outdoor consumer products like kayaks and SUPs (or bicycles) and just like rental ebikes on a popular beach trail, kayak and especially SUP rentals have impacted our waterways. It is not at all uncommon to have a newbie with no clue about the rules wobble their way in front of you on your way out of the marina. PWCs rentals were one thing, but at least they could move out of the way when they saw you and their operators rarely fell off if you startled them by actually keeping course and not running aground when they paddled out on a collision course.

My point is that anywhere you rent to first-timers you will have this sort of problem and ebikes are not going to be different.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> My point is that anywhere you rent to first-timers you will have this sort of problem and ebikes are not going to be different.


And your solution is?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Education at point of rental and enforcement at point of offense. That, and allowing enough time for it to take effect.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> What's that got to do with mountain biking?


About as much as considering that thing in the pics a 'trail'.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> Education at point of rental and enforcement at point of offense. That, and allowing enough time for it to take effect.


So more cops and more regulations? Bikes have always been at least a partial escape from those things for me. Can't wait for the trail speed cameras to start lurking in the forest trees


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

The story says they are going to enforce existing regulations in place on a crowded path, not add new ones. In most places that’s all it will take too. Each agency will have to decide for themselves if it will require hiring more cops to provide a sufficient presence to enforce and deter. I doubt that anyone would be riding on this particular trail/path to “get away from it all”, this just is not that kind of place so having a ranger monitor things would not change the experience for 99% of the rental ebikers.


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## dstepper (Feb 28, 2004)

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

No big words. What’s your point?


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