# kcnc new light v-brakes and levers



## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

I´ve been told by the importer in Spain that kcnc is going to release some kind of cnc copy of extralte ultralevers and ultrabrakes. do you know if this is true?

any pics out there?


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

MaLoL said:


> I´ve been told by the importer in Spain that kcnc is going to release some kind of cnc copy of extralte ultralevers and ultrabrakes. do you know if this is true?
> 
> any pics out there?


Oh great! Another copycat piece. 

Steinbach and ExtraLite and now maybe KCNC, too? :bluefrown:

Hopefully KCNC will at least charge something reasonable if it's true.


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

I always thinked the Extralite stuff is beautiful but a little steep in their pricing.

If Extralite will take a premium in their stuff, at least grind off the milling marks before anodizing.


----------



## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

*Any news?*

Does anyone know anything about these brake levers? I have a project that requires carving up a light lever, so these would be perfect.


----------



## sharpe (Aug 16, 2005)

just seen in my german forum









an upcoming must have?


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

sharpe said:


> just seen in my german forum
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Upcoming must have ONLY if they're reasonably priced. This $200/end stuff is crazy (although better than AX-Lightness road brake pricing).

So, I gotta wonder, how much extra weight do the brake pads add?  We all know that the weight they show is without pads, right?

sharpe - is there a username that goes with that pic? Does that username have a (part) source?????????????????? Speak up!


----------



## mpap89 (Mar 10, 2005)

Those levers look familiar, Extralite?


----------



## Cyco-Dude (Feb 12, 2004)

no way, extralight's are much cleaner.


----------



## sharpe (Aug 16, 2005)

the pic is from the taiwan bike show
for the moment I have no further news


----------



## mpap89 (Mar 10, 2005)

Cyco-Dude said:


> no way, extralight's are much cleaner.


besides the cleanliness, the main idea is the same as the extralites. 
michael


----------



## collideous (Jul 1, 2006)

mpap89 said:


> besides the cleanliness, the main idea is the same as the extralites.
> michael


I don't know, but if the KCNC levers look the same an Extralites, then Extralites look like Kooka or Tech-Lite. Other than wanting to be light, I think they're all quite different.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*still beeing tested...*

i just got a mail this morning:
according to KCNC these brakes and levers are still in testing. still no production items.


----------



## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

Those KCNC brakes look very cool and better than extralite! I'll buy! Send them in when they're ready!


----------



## dennis rides Scott (Mar 3, 2005)

I'm glad there will be a other option for the Extralite Brakes. I hope they work as good as the Extralites, but more affordable. I think the Extralite ones have insane prices. I use there Ultralevers and love them, but there Ultrabrakes are way overpriced.


----------



## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

Guys- how is rigidity on these levers? I have an old set of Paul's and went to something heavier because I could see them flexing more than a shade when pulling hard on them. That's no good in my view.
Tim


----------



## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

Official release for these KCNC sweets will be July. If someone can grab them first tell us.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*ok...*

i'll do


----------



## sworkspilot (Jun 26, 2005)

Nino, any word on pricing yet?


----------



## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

OK, I'll bite. 
Nino, do you have these in Zurich? 
Can you weigh them for us?
How much? PM if you must.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*estimated pricing...*



sworkspilot said:


> Nino, any word on pricing yet?


below prices and weights as per KCNC:

V-brake estimated 140Euro - 58g(without pads)

brake lever estimated 128Euro - 48g (seems very light to me)

Complete set as in photo estimated 440Euro


----------



## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

nino said:


> below prices and weights as per KCNC:
> 
> V-brake estimated 140Euro - 58g(without pads)
> 
> ...


Thats heavy pricing!  
You state One V-brake 58 g =140 EUR 
and One brake lever 48g = 128EUR ?
Or is the pair?


----------



## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

nino said:


> below prices and weights as per KCNC:
> 
> V-brake estimated 140Euro - 58g(without pads)
> 
> ...


That's higher $ then I thought they would be but still less expensive then EL. Maybe this will bring the price down a bit on the Ultrabrakes which are criminally priced. It would be interesting to see some scale pics with brakepads. It looks like the padcarrier bolt fixing nut is either Ti or steel.


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

That´s steep price to be a KCNC product.

440 euro is IMHO not worth it.

Either I will buy Nino´s tuned Vueltas and some aftermarket levers, total price should be a lot less.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*suggested price...*



Mattias_HellÃ¶re said:


> That´s steep price to be a KCNC product.
> 
> 440 euro is IMHO not worth it.
> 
> Either I will buy Nino´s tuned Vueltas and some aftermarket levers, total price should be a lot less.


remember - these are only the suggested prices....


----------



## dennis rides Scott (Mar 3, 2005)

If these prices will be correct, they can put these brakes in there a*****. I would rather pay more for Extralite brakes then so much money for 'just' KCNC brakes.


----------



## Cabdoctor (Jun 22, 2006)

any word on release dates?


----------



## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Mattias_HellÃ¶re said:


> That´s steep price to be a KCNC product.
> 
> 440 euro is IMHO not worth it.
> 
> Either I will buy Nino´s tuned Vueltas and some aftermarket levers, total price should be a lot less.


Maybe if we are lucky DirtBoy will pick these up and Nino and him can duke it out for the lowest price on the KCNC brakes.  If I were DirtBoy/Nino I'd get a whole brake system on the market and offer it as a package deal. So....maybe offer the KCNC system with Carbon Nokons and PowerCordz.:thumbsup: Or, the Vueltas/Ultrabrakes with Alligators/PowerCordz.....you get the idea. Maybe offer different weight levels for different price points. Less $ gets you the Vueltas with Alligators/wire cables, etc, etc.


----------



## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Axis II said:


> Maybe if we are lucky DirtBoy will pick these up and Nino and him can duke it out for the lowest price on the KCNC brakes.  If I were DirtBoy/Nino I'd get a whole brake system on the market and offer it as a package deal. So....maybe offer the KCNC system with Carbon Nokons and PowerCordz.:thumbsup: Or, the Vueltas/Ultrabrakes with Alligators/PowerCordz.....you get the idea. Maybe offer different weight levels for different price points. Less $ gets you the Vueltas with Alligators/wire cables, etc, etc.


I found KCNC to be a pain to go direct. There really in not a major importer here. I can try to see what I can do. But I doubt it.
The KCNC or Extralite are a toght sell. The problem with Extralite is that that are too far behind on order on the brakes. I have been waiting 2 months now.

If KCNC can knock these out fast and they work as well as Extralite for less money than they will be a winner. People who want what they percive as higher quality stuff, will stick with Extralite. The KCNC stems sucked if most remember and do not sell well at all.


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

The problem I see here is Extralite have a near monopoly in the WW market because of the quality in both good and bad way and a steep price tag.

Many unlike me think, a high premium price is synomous with quality.
It´s not true in these days when asia imported things could be in good quality and at far much lower price.

That´s because why I´m confused with KCNC approach with these brakes, estimate or not, 440 EURO is a lot money for asia imported stuff that´s run in a CNC mill 24/7.

A Matsuura 5 axis CNC mill can even make a V8 engine block with only 2 lockdowns in these days!

Sorry I´m a CNC operator and I have no understanding at all of these price tags of WW stuff.

A brake arm can be made in a CNC lathe with 4-10m dia 20mm rod in a magazine of 20 pcs and let it go in 1 week nonstop and 30 tools without a operator to look it.

In a really fast lathe I estimate a arm take about 5 min to make.
In sweden we will take about 1000 SEK/hour direct to a consumer.
About 120 euro/hour I could make 12 brake arms in a hour..
Quality pass maybe 9 will pass 3 scrap of 12 (high quality controlling).

Wonder what they should cost?

Think about it.


----------



## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Mattias_HellÃ¶re said:


> The problem I see here is Extralite have a near monopoly in the WW market because of the quality in both good and bad way and a steep price tag.
> 
> Many unlike me think, a high premium price is synomous with quality.
> It´s not true in these days when asia imported things could be in good quality and at far much lower price.
> ...


Because no one esle makes the stuff. Supply and demand. The supply is short, demand is there!

If more CNC makers did this stuff right and flooded the market prices would come down.


----------



## Kitakeng (Oct 29, 2006)

Mattias_Hellöre said:


> In a really fast lathe I estimate a arm take about 5 min to make.
> In sweden we will take about 1000 SEK/hour direct to a consumer.
> About 120 euro/hour I could make 12 brake arms in a hour..
> Quality pass maybe 9 will pass 3 scrap of 12 (high quality controlling).
> ...


Yep. If you make them half the price of KCNC, no matter where they were made, you will be the winner. :thumbsup:


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

Dirt Boy: Spot on, everything is about supply and demand.

I only did a another view from a not so easyily impressed mind.

Kitakeng: I wish I had more time and money to buy a CNC mill, it will be one of my biggest goals, have a mill sitting in my garage.. It´s a dream!


----------



## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

These prices won´t be real prices as we all know. Seems like just a suggested price so if you see the whole kit at 300€ you will think: "hey what a bargain, i´ll buy them"

You can get extralite kit easyly at 390€, so a taiwanese copy of the same product can never be more expensive. In fact, KCNC crappy crankset (i had ones and they are a big crap) were about 130€.

I think 250€ would be a fair price for the kcnc kit, as this is before testing them. Anything above 300€ it´s a clear scam IMHO.

Nino: Do you have pics with real weights or it´s just a pic what you have? There are two spanish kcnc sellers. One is in Barcelona and won´t have any info til they sell them, and the other one it´s located in a small village and he just want to sell a brakes but he doesn´t have yet. Real weights would be really apreciated.

And about kcnc and extralite i´d like to say:

kcnc cranks are crappy, but kcnc seatpost it´s a very nice copy of new ultimate and it´s lighter and cheaper than extralite.
extralte production it´s very slow. it´s always expensive and their seatpost it´s a very big crap due to craking noises and seat clamp.
i think that talking about brands in general it´s not useful, it´s better and more useful to talk about their products separately.


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

Malol: it´s true, not relevant to talking about brands itselfs, more about the separate products.

BUT, production is very slow should not require a premium price.
Extralite stuff is not made with hammers and chisels in a non electrical factory.
They are CNC made from beginning to end, first CAD, then CAM and hopefully some FEM simulations.

Maybe they have a lot of scrap becausel of low quality in manufacturing process, THEN I can understand the high price, wasted material and time is NOT cheap.

In a former job I worked as CNC operator , we use common quality standards and that allowed us to scrap little and make many good pieces from old CNC lathes from 1986 and 1989, the tolerances was in 0.05mm all the time.

I have no understanding why brands should charge a premium in CNC made stuff inhouse or ordered from Taiwan.

Only a cause: profit.


----------



## collideous (Jul 1, 2006)

Mattias_HellÃ¶re said:


> Sorry I´m a CNC operator and I have no understanding at all of these price tags of WW stuff.


How many bicycle parts do you buy directly from a CNC shop? The price for such items doesn't just cover manufacturing, but pays for development, marketing, distribution from factory through your national importer down to the local bike shop and much more.

The one-off pieces I make are also CNCied. If I had to attach a price tag on them, it'd probably blow everyone away. But those parts are essentially prototypes.


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

collideous said:


> How many bicycle parts do you buy directly from a CNC shop? The price for such items doesn't just cover manufacturing, but pays for development, marketing, distribution from factory through your national importer down to the local bike shop and much more.
> 
> The one-off pieces I make are also CNCied. If I had to attach a price tag on them, it'd probably blow everyone away. But those parts are essentially prototypes.


I know what you mean, two brake arms incl hardware from Extralite cost 149 EURO, machining and material cost can be maximum 50 EURO.
So you think the designing and development cost 100 EURO every brake kit they sells.

Don´t think so.

Maybe one-offs cost a lot more because to make a program and some beginning fixtures and so on.

I can do more advanced items than these and don´t forget the wonderful FEM simulations, you can simulate whatever you want and reengineer these weak spots before they leave the computer and do final adjustements in some prototypes and then sell to people.

So the prices are insanely high for the brand name.


----------



## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Mattias_HellÃ¶re said:


> I know what you mean, two brake arms incl hardware from Extralite cost 149 EURO, machining and material cost can be maximum 50 EURO.
> So you think the designing and development cost 100 EURO every brake kit they sells.
> 
> Don´t think so.
> ...


Well you need to include material costs, machine costs, software, marketing, rent, salaries, etc..

I think a small company like Extralite say supports 2-3 guys salary. If this is there only way of living and they can only produce so manyy parts, then you have your answer.

At the rarte they turn out items, I think they might have only 1 machine. :madman:


----------



## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

This is very interesting discussion. I hope others will jump into the game to get the $ lower for these items. Basically, a market niche exists that is not being taken advantage of. Someone get a CNC machine and plant it in your garage already so we can make you a millionaire. Why Paul's doesn't do the lightweight stuff is beyond me. Liability? Interest? Perhaps he makes plenty already with the old tried and true designs. I dunno.


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

Dirt Boy: I can only talk about the costs in Sweden, one of the most expensive countries to own a company.

It cost about 1000 SEK (110-120EUR) per hour out to consumer for mass production in small to big series, even bigger series lower prices.

Do the math: one brake arm 5 minutes in CNC lathe with 5 axis = 12 pcs/hour, scrap 3 of them because of ridicously high QC.
9 pcs / 120 EUR = 13,333 EUR including paying for 35 employees, 15 CNC machines, 1500m2 house.
Numbers taken from my former job in www.kuggteknik.se

5 minutes is way too high estimate really.

That´s cause of my reaction.
I don´t care about Extralites machine park, they can import from Taiwan and relabel them.
No one can see a difference.


----------



## collideous (Jul 1, 2006)

Axis II said:


> This is very interesting discussion. I hope others will jump into the game to get the $ lower for these items. Basically, a market niche exists that is not being taken advantage of. Someone get a CNC machine and plant it in your garage already so we can make you a millionaire. Why Paul's doesn't do the lightweight stuff is beyond me. Liability? Interest? Perhaps he makes plenty already with the old tried and true designs. I dunno.


You'd probably need a million for machinery and tooling just to get started and it wouldn't fit into your garage. When mountain biking took off in the early Nineties there were a whole lot of small after-market companies that made a ton of machined aluminum components. Not very many survived. Right now we're back in a bit of a boom. Some riders are back to customizing their bikes and look for WW components and such. It's a rather small market though. It seemed to have gained more followers in recent years, but how long is it going to last?


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

Axis II: A new 5axis CNC mill of a good quality will cost about 80-100.000 EURO to buy, a little too much for a single person to bear in a garage.

That´s a futile answer from me to not own a CNC mill


----------



## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

collideous said:


> You'd probably need a million for machinery and tooling just to get started and it wouldn't fit into your garage. When mountain biking took off in the early Nineties there were a whole lot of small after-market companies that made a ton of machined aluminum components. Not very many survived. Right now we're back in a bit of a boom. Some riders are back to customizing their bikes and look for WW components and such. It's a rather small market though. It seemed to have gained more followers in recent years, but how long is it going to last?


Maybe it is a small market right now, so keep it small scale. I've heard about table top machines that can do this type of work. I don't see the WW trend getting any smaller in years to come. The more exposure that boards like this create the more we will see this market grow. It seems like every six months or so I learn of a new WW site. Seems like a growing trend to me. Maybe it's not 29er level growth but hopefully slow and sustainable growth.


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

It´s cheaper to buy a computer and pirated solidworks and buy prototypes from Taiwan and test them to final production items.

The starting cost is high but it don´t explain Extralites prices, the machine or machines are paid in three years as praxis.

I think the boss of Extralite want to buy his third Ferrari F50. 




Note: I don´t support pirated software.


----------



## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Mattias_HellÃ¶re said:


> Axis II: A new 5axis CNC mill of a good quality will cost about 80-100.000 EURO to buy, a little too much for a single person to bear in a garage.
> 
> That´s a futile answer from me to not own a CNC mill


5 axis??....I don't need no stinking 5 axis CNC machine. Give me a two Axis machine.  Hell, give me a decent drill press and I'll beat Extralite all day long outa my garage.:thumbsup:


----------



## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Mattias_HellÃ¶re said:


> It´s cheaper to buy a computer and pirated solidworks and buy prototypes from Taiwan and test them to final production items.
> 
> The starting cost is high but it don´t explain Extralites prices, the machine or machines are paid in three years as praxis.
> 
> ...


Of course, that's the American way....oops, I meant the Italian way, I guess. Anyway, this is all silly talk. What we should really be talking about is how to work some epoxy and carbon fiber into the ultimate V-brake. It's only a matter of time and then we will all be wondering what ever happened to Extralite.


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

It´s a fact, If you want to make something more advanced than a circular item in a CNC lathe, you need more than X and Z axis, even 3 axis is not enough, at least simultaneously moving 4 axis is decent, better with 5 axis.

Or you will have a lot more non running time with tool changes and new fixtures or another mill to make something that a XZ axis lathe can´t.

I will only explain the life on a machining factory like kuggteknik.
Economics and markup and so on is better left to others that know better.

I will tell you all the life as CNC operator is a lot easier in these days than for 5 years ago because all programmed codes is made by hand before CAM came into picture and affordable and easy to understanding software.

So in these days anno 2007, the prices should be lower than what they are.

Interesting discussion though all writers will add something new.


----------



## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

you are nuts


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Mattias_HellÃ¶re said:


> Axis II: A new 5axis CNC mill of a good quality will cost about 80-100.000 EURO to buy, a little too much for a single person to bear in a garage.
> 
> That´s a futile answer from me to not own a CNC mill


_You are using a hatchet to make a toothpick._ Overkill. Waaaaaaayyyyy overkill for what is being manufactured.

The reasons many of these parts are "so expensive" is really easy to understand. Here's what they are (not necessarily in any order of importance);

1) overhead costs
2) poor project(s) management
3) improper tooling/equipment and/or useage
4) lack of envisionment/planning
5) greed (ties in with others above)

And Mr. Youknowwho - I know, I KNOW!


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

AndrewTO: If you want to make more than 2 pcs in a decent timespace you need some sort of controlled lathe or mill.

NO in the hell a manually controlled 3 axis mill, you will stand there in ages and as all know time is money.

For home use and few pieces a manual mill and lathe is what I shall buy in a near future but not for mass production.


----------



## Kitakeng (Oct 29, 2006)

Mattias_Hellöre said:


> In a former job I worked as CNC operator , we use common quality standards and that allowed us to scrap little and make many good pieces from old CNC lathes from 1986 and 1989, the tolerances was in 0.05mm all the time.
> 
> I have no understanding why brands should charge a premium in CNC made stuff inhouse or ordered from Taiwan.
> 
> Only a cause: profit.


I was looking at Soul-Kozas's website

"All the components are repeatedly measured with the accuracy of 0,001 mm during the production process. The Quality control allows to detect all defects and ensure the highest level of final product."


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

Kitakeng: the accuracy of 0.001mm is only a marketing line.

A single hair is 0.4mm, a coca cola bottle is 0.3mm, only a place that´s needing a accuracy like that is a press fit for bearings in a hub, nothing another place what I can think of.

0.001mm is a impossible thing to measure repeatedly if the ambient temperature is differing from morning to evening and the accuracy of measuring tools, a digital vernier caliper is repeatable in a range of 0.05-0.1mm a micrometer below that and not to 0.01.

You need a digital measuring board with stone board and pneumatic slides and absolutely clean and dry probes and CLEAN pieces even it´s not enough.


----------



## Kitakeng (Oct 29, 2006)

Mattias_Hellöre said:


> Kitakeng: the accuracy of 0.001mm is only a marketing line.
> 
> 0.001mm is a impossible thing to measure repeatedly if the ambient temperature is differing from morning to evening and the accuracy of measuring tools, a digital vernier caliper is repeatable in a range of 0.05-0.1mm a micrometer below that and not to 0.01.


So except the hubs, as an opinion of CNC operator, you would think there will not be any difference (that one can notice) between EL and KCNC products? (since machineries are so advanced and automated, there is not much of human factor involved)

So if someone feels KCNC products are worse than EL, is it just the design and brand name?

Very interesting information. Thank you.


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

Kitakeng: I assume EL and KCNC use same materials as grade 5 ti, 7075T6 al, 6al 4v ti and so on.
The real difference is only design, QC is not so important because the scrap levels are so low with modern machines who can feel when a tool is worn out and change to a another before it fails.

A modern CNC lathe like Boley evoluturn model 2006 have 12 tools and 99 different offsets and two spindles, all 12 tools can be driven through the revolver so a 4 th axis is not needed sometimes.

This machine have a amperemeter that can feel if the power is gradually rising and change the tool to a exact same in a another place and go 1000 units more and so on.

It´s not dumb machines like these in 90s.

Again: The materials are same, the machines do work in same way more or less, the only difference is design and brand name.

So you really pay the premium difference in design and brand name.
Ask yourself if they have a great overhead or they only planned to sell 500 sets of EL brakes or do they machine the same things in eternity?
New updated levers every year, good consumer department and listening to why something fails?
Coming out with better and updated items?

It´s important I think.

That´s difference between a Lexus and a Toyota.


----------



## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Mattias_HellÃ¶re said:


> Kitakeng: I assume EL and KCNC use same materials as grade 5 ti, 7075T6 al, 6al 4v ti and so on.
> The real difference is only design, QC is not so important because the scrap levels are so low with modern machines who can feel when a tool is worn out and change to a another before it fails.
> 
> A modern CNC lathe like Boley evoluturn model 2006 have 12 tools and 99 different offsets and two spindles, all 12 tools can be driven through the revolver so a 4 th axis is not needed sometimes.
> ...


I agree but, Toyota's still never fail. I agree with A-TO, there is room in the market for a guy in his garage to do good quality work AND make a profit. Start small, invest your profits in the business to keep taxes low and pretty soon people are looking at your stuff instead of Paul's or Tune because IT"S THE NEXT BIG THING!! Unlike politics the world of bike component manufacturers doesn't necessarily favor the encumbants. People want the new stuff, right? So, if you produce a quality item with attention to detail, interesting product updates and customer service like you were saying people will want what you offer. We have big multinationals making most of the stuff already. Personally I'd love to support the guy next door in his garage so long as I'm not buying garbage.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Mattias_Hellöre said:


> AndrewTO: If you want to make more than 2 pcs in a decent timespace you need some sort of controlled lathe or mill.
> 
> NO in the hell a manually controlled 3 axis mill, you will stand there in ages and as all know time is money.
> 
> For home use and few pieces a manual mill and lathe is what I shall buy in a near future but not for mass production.


Where did I say ANYTHING about a manually operated machine?

Let's look .....



AndrewTO said:


> You are using a hatchet to make a toothpick. Overkill. Waaaaaaayyyyy overkill for what is being manufactured.
> 
> The reasons many of these parts are "so expensive" is really easy to understand. Here's what they are (not necessarily in any order of importance);
> 
> ...


Nope, nothing about a manually oprated machine. Besides, i'd like to think we're both intelligent enough to know that it would be bordering on 'impossible' to make a duplicate of Extralite and/or (prospectively) KCNCs offerings without some form of CNC control due to that many arcs involved in the final shape. I'd also like to think we are both intelligent enough to know that there's more than one way to skin a cat and that it's not the end of the world if you don't have a 5-axis.

How did the world get to where it is now without them before????

Axis - in response to your last post - agreed on many points, BUT ..... first you must gain the trust of said customers. I wonder how many "i'm not gonna buy his stuff because he doesn't have an engineering degree or FEA analysis software or a $100K machine or a secretary or a private jet" ******** remarks one would have to contend with before "something" would happen. THIS is where some have a problem even bothering getting a project like this started (and with what you and I have discussed lately you should know exactly wtf i'm talking about). Being "on the hook" for thousands and thousands of dollars worth of equipment isn't always an easy pill to swallow if that "something" doesn't happen. It can be a big gamble ..... even "life crippling" in some cases.


----------



## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

AndrewTO said:


> Where did I say ANYTHING about a manually operated machine?
> 
> Let's look .....
> 
> ...


OK, OK....scrap the CNC route. That's so 1999 anyway. Maybe carbon fiber overhead costs are more reasonable??  I still want a set of CF V-brakes.:thumbsup:


----------



## Cabdoctor (Jun 22, 2006)

I hate to get us off the wonderful topic of 5 axis CNC machines and micro economics, but any word on when these are available? I'm looking for just the levers.


----------



## bdc88 (Sep 27, 2005)

Here is my take on this.

Extralite Ultralevers - 64g at $195 USD
Vuelta Mags tuned - 232g at $140 USD (thanks Nino)
Vuelta Mags tuned + Delta Mag Road brake pads and holders - 204g $190 USD
This is what I have paid to do the above.

Now the KCNC pricing and weights are what I think they are advertising.

V-brake estimated - 58g (without pads) 140 Euro
Brake lever estimated - 48g (seems very light to me) 128 Euro 
I think this is for each lever. It has to be.

Complete set as in photo estimated 440Euro

I just think that this is crazy pricing and you do not even save any weight over parts that you can buy for cheaper.


----------



## Cabdoctor (Jun 22, 2006)

Yeah that does seem unreasonably light for the levers. But on the other hand, every KCNC product I have weighted has been spot on!


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

bdc88 said:


> Here is my take on this.
> 
> Extralite Ultralevers - 64g at $195 USD
> Vuelta Mags tuned - 232g at $140 USD (thanks Nino)
> ...


well - you can't beat the Vueltas 
why do yours weigh 204 with the Carbon pads?? mine are 192g.

BUT the Extralite setup is still MORE than the KCNC:
Ultralevers: 169 euro
Ultrabrakes 2x 149 Euro
total: 467 Euro

as mentioned already those 440 are "estimated" prices and you can rest assured this is not what the market is willing to pay and i think prices will definitely be lower.


----------



## Atmos (Oct 20, 2006)

Yea, i had enough of all these 5 axis CNC and such. End of the day, we just want to get our beautiful ww components and get on our bikes, ain't we? But i'm still on EL until there are wonderful reviews on the new kcnc


----------



## Cabdoctor (Jun 22, 2006)

Yeah did we ever establish if I will ever be able to buy the KCNC levers for my bike I'm building up? If anyone here is a KCNC rep, hit me up with a pm cause I'm seriously interested.


----------



## Dream Bikes (Oct 1, 2005)

I haven't understand..is it the levers weight for the pair??? (seems me very strange... )

Brake pads hardware isn't so light...probabily the complete brake will be near 100 g.

Ultrabrakes are expensive (very soon the could elevate from 149 euro to 169 euro...) because they're not so easy to produce. All the stuff is CNC made (the pads shoes too!!!!), every brake has double micro sealed bearings and titanium spring!

Actually they aren't a prototype but a very reliable product!!!


----------



## Guest (May 2, 2007)

Please stop discussing about the price !!

P O S T please some P I C T U R E S !!


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

fommes2005: they aren´t available yet so any pics on what?


----------



## Ty (May 20, 2004)

fommes2005 said:


> Please stop discussing about the price !!
> 
> P O S T please some P I C T U R E S !!


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*ca. 10 days to go...*



Mattias_HellÃ¶re said:


> fommes2005: they aren´t available yet so any pics on what?


i should get them in about 10 days...rest assured pics and weights will follow


----------



## Dream Bikes (Oct 1, 2005)

Mattias_HellÃ¶re said:


> Dirt Boy: I can only talk about the costs in Sweden, one of the most expensive countries to own a company.
> 
> It cost about 1000 SEK (110-120EUR) per hour out to consumer for mass production in small to big series, even bigger series lower prices.
> 
> ...


All CNC Extralite parts are 100% made in Italy!!!
The parts are produced outside from a CNC machine factory that works for many aeospace companies and then assembled by Extralite.
Ultrabrakes are 100 CNC made, not only the arms, but pads shoes, bolts, cams etc. too.
There are many titanium parts and 8 micro sealed bearing for a complete set...
They aren't so cheap to produce...

Please take note thet Italian fees/taxes incide for about 65% !!!!! And have a business in Italy isn't so easy...


----------



## Guest (May 3, 2007)

Dream Bikes said:


> All CNC Extralite parts are 100% made in Italy!!!
> The parts are produced outside from a CNC machine factory that works for many aeospace companies and then assembled by Extralite.
> Ultrabrakes are 100 CNC made, not only the arms, but pads shoes, bolts, cams etc. too.
> There are many titanium parts and 8 micro sealed bearing for a complete set...
> ...


:madman: Come hai ragione... le tasse in Italia sono troppo alte!

:thumbsup: Ed i prodotti Extralite secondo me non hanno prezzi esagerati, sto valutando di prendere qualcosa da loro... 
@ALL
I think that the Extralite products are not overpriced! Is there someone who has experience with their products: brakes, brake levers, bottom bracket, stem, headset and handlebar?


----------



## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

fommes2005 said:


> :madman: Come hai ragione... le tasse in Italia sono troppo alte!
> 
> :thumbsup: Ed i prodotti Extralite secondo me non hanno prezzi esagerati, sto valutando di prendere qualcosa da loro...
> @ALL
> I think that the Extralite products are not overpriced! Is there someone who has experience with their products: brakes, brake levers, bottom bracket, stem, headset and handlebar?


I have extensive experience with their brakes and levers. I have three sets of the levers and two sets of the Ultrabrakes. I use the Freehead headsets on all my MTBs and the seatpost clamps. The only product I have NOT been satisfied with is the seatpost. This is a long story so I will spare everyone the details, but with some modifications I now have the seatpost in reliable working order again. Don't buy the seatpost for MTB, IMO.


----------



## Guest (May 7, 2007)

*Details Kcnc Brakes*

GERMAN DEALER FOR THE NEW KCNC BRAKES:

http://www.pitwalk.eu/product_info.....html&XTCsid=16351e4422b0daffa020d962b4e7d19c

PRICE :thumbsup:

WEIGHT :thumbsup:

DETAILS :thumbsup:


----------



## Guest (May 7, 2007)

NEW PICTURES:










NEXT 

https://www.imagehack.eu/de/uploads/6f4fefec34.jpg


----------



## Cabdoctor (Jun 22, 2006)

im having a hard time translating the german. Can i purchase the levers by themselves?


----------



## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

fommes2005 said:


> GERMAN DEALER FOR THE NEW KCNC BRAKES:
> 
> http://www.pitwalk.eu/product_info.....html&XTCsid=16351e4422b0daffa020d962b4e7d19c
> 
> ...


Did you miss this part?
Lieferzeit: 4 Wochen

For non-German readers, that means 4-week delivery time IF you pre-order. If you don't pre-order, they deliver in July. Nino has them next week.
Price is $334 at today's rate.

Note that brake arms are only 9.2cm long, so they are a little shorter than most others. OK for me, but may be trouble for guys running huge tires.

I REALLY like those levers...


----------



## mpap89 (Mar 10, 2005)

i think they look pretty damn sexy. but isn't it 334 euros, not usd?


----------



## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

Cabdoctor said:


> im having a hard time translating the german. Can i purchase the levers by themselves?


My German stinks, but I don't see levers-only on that site. They only quote the whole kit for now, with delivers starting mid-June.

Just measured my Avid arms at 102mm. Vuelta Mags are 108mm. Tektro Mini-V's (for cross/bmx levers) are 85mm.

So, at 92mm, I'll call these "mid-V's" 

FYI, my old SID has 100mm clearance from brake pivot to brake arch.


----------



## Cabdoctor (Jun 22, 2006)

cool. ill use the levers on my mtb and arms on my cross bike


----------



## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

mpap89 said:


> i think they look pretty damn sexy. but isn't it 334 euros, not usd?


330 Euro is list price.

"Your price" is 245.26 EUR. At $1.36/Euro, that's about $334. If you ship it to non-EU country (like USA), they should deduct 19% VAT tax, so net price =

(245.26/1.19) * 1.36 = $280 plus shipping


----------



## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

Cabdoctor said:


> cool. ill use the levers on my mtb and arms on my cross bike


You read my mind 

The mid-V length solves the brake cable mud-clearance problem of mini-V's for cross. Dia-Compe 287V levers are designed to pull long-arm V's, so should allow you to run wide rim gap with these, solving the other cross clearance issue.:thumbsup:

I think the arms are still too long for DA/Ultegra/105 STI levers...


----------

