# New team & new 29er ECDM to the forum



## hrod (Jan 8, 2015)

My wife and I just took delivery of our new 29er ECDM frame today from Timberline Cycles in Colorado Springs. Our pictured hardtail tandem will soon be up for grabs as my wife is ready for a more comfy ride on the back.







Here is our new baby decked out in Carbon Black. We got a couple of upgrades which includes powdercoating the rear triangle to match the rest of the frame and I wanted the rearend configured with the 142 x 12 thru axle. Now the tough part....to nail down the parts list. I've been peepin' in on teams opinions for a couple of weeks now but I'd like to hear some updated dream build recommendations.

I'm leaning towards these components so far:

Chris King hubs w/stainless steel bodies. Not sure of hoops and spokes
Non-tandem rated fork, Rokshox Pike or Fox 34 or 36 Talas
3x10 drivetrain, I could go Sram or Shimano. I do like Gripshift though
WickWerks chainrings, a buddy of mine designs them
Shimano Saint or Sram Code brakes

I'm trying to get over a cold so I think I'll call it a night. I look forward to everyone's input.

Hrod


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

From what I am reading on the trials forums, the previous gen Saints, the 810 series are the powerful ones. The Code series use Taper Bore and seems to have a hit or miss reputation. The current Guide series do not use Taper Bore, but the new Timing Port Technology.

I have not ridden the Guides yet, but have the DB5's on a bike. Uses the Timing Port Tech and so far the levers engage consistently in the same point.

Guide performance is on par with the current 820 series Saints.

Should be a solid build.

PK


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

hrod said:


> View attachment 963749
> My wife and I just took delivery of our new 29er ECDM frame today from Timberline Cycles in Colorado Springs. Our pictured hardtail tandem will soon be up for grabs as my wife is ready for a more comfy ride on the back.
> 
> View attachment 963751
> ...


Totally agree with the King hubs( we fried a number of others and so far after 5 seasons the Kings are trouble free and easy to maintain) and I like the X9 Grip shift as I can grab a handful of gears when necessary. I am interested in the type of front end you decide on. Please keep us in the loop as your build progresses.
Ed and Pat Gifford
the Snot Rocket tandem
(Grinch Green ECDM 26'er)


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Hrod,
That frame looks awfully familiar  just sayin...

You won't get any arguments here on the CK hubs. Hoops, I like wider profiles personally. I hear the MTX 33 is rock solid. We've had good results with the Velocity p35 (now Blunt 35).

I've had good luck with the Fox 34. We may upgrade to the 36 at some point, just b/c its available now.

I've only used Maguras on the mtb tandems to date and they have worked as expected.

I think you can flip a coin on the SRAM Shimano drivetrain.

Congrats on the new frame! Hopefully you can get it built soon and get out and play! Maybe later this spring, you can come up our way and bring Terri & Kevin along?


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## hrod (Jan 8, 2015)

ds2199, glad you like the familiar frame! We rode a few weeks ago with Kevin and Terri at Pueblo Resevoir and had a great time. Kevin invited me for a ride today but I've had the cold of my life that I can't seem to shake. Beautiful weather makes it even worse!

I've been focusing on the fork this evening and I think we will go with the Fox 34 TALAS 29,140 FIT CTD Remote for several reasons. The wife says it's pretty, I can configure both the shock and the fork on one handlebar remote, will accept a 203mm rotor and it has adjustable travel. 

The RS Pike is limited to 200mm rotor, has too much travel (140) and is not adjustable. Great price though compared to Fox. The Fox 36 Talas is what I wanted to use but I am too lazy to deal with the front wheel removal, no remote option and no lockout or CTD function. 

Have I missed anything? Anyone draw different conclusions?

hrod


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Not praising nor condemning your fork choice. Just consider that, and I base this on your photo above, the tandem will not float the front wheel over a feature, you appear to be a larger person. If you ride fast or technical stuff, you might welcome the added rigidity of a 36 so you deal with less flex.

Only an opinion not a must do.

PK


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

> I've been focusing on the fork this evening and I think we will go with the Fox 34 TALAS 29,140 FIT CTD Remote for several reasons. The wife says it's pretty, I can configure both the shock and the fork on one handlebar remote, will accept a 203mm rotor and it has adjustable travel.
> 
> The RS Pike is limited to 200mm rotor, has too much travel (140) and is not adjustable. Great price though compared to Fox. The Fox 36 Talas is what I wanted to use but I am too lazy to deal with the front wheel removal, no remote option and no lockout or CTD function.
> 
> Have I missed anything? Anyone draw different conclusions?


The Fox 34 seems a bit light and flexy to me. Do you need a remote on the shock when you have a stoker?

We are running a Pike 26" with 203 mm rotors. I don't think the extra 3mm will make much difference as it's only 1.5mm extra "fork loading" on something that's not even tandem rated by the manufacturer.

You can get the travel reduced to 120mm by swapping the air shaft for one of these "I think"

_11.4018.026.003 Air Shaft PIKE Solo Air 150mm travel 26"/140mm Travel 27"/120mm travel 29" (can be used to change travel to 150mm on 26"/*120mm on 29"*) A1_

Have a look at page 55 https://sram-cdn-pull-zone-gsdesign...lt/files/techdocs/2015_rockshox_spc_rev_a.pdf

This is only for the Solo Air and not the travel adjust fork, then again, I'm not convinced on the need to change the fork travel for climbing with a tandem, due to the long wheelbase having less effect on the geometry.

I agree that having to use tools for wheel removal on the Fox 36 seems like a backward step to me .

I would have another look at the Pike before you make your mind-up.......................It should save you a few £££££'s, or $$$$$'s in your case :thumbsup:

We are using the new Saints as well..............very pleased with them.

And Mavic EX729 rims.


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## hrod (Jan 8, 2015)

Switchbacktrog (I love that name BTW), you and PMK have certainly given me more to think about but I guess I'm hung up on the adjustable travel option and here is my logic on that. 

When we rode some friends 26" ECDM a couple of months ago it was equipped with the 6 inch travel Maverick fork. On that initial ride I realized the importance of more travel to soak up the stairsteps since you can't exactly wheelie over them. The 29er ECDM is said to be ideally suited for 120mm fork. I like that notion of being able to run at 120 for mild, level riding and have the bike handle more optimally, then as we crest a long climb be able to adjust the travel out to 150 to handle a rocky descent. 

DS2199 is running a 34 Talas and I never got the impression from him that the fork was too lightweight. I think his complaint was some creaking and occasional maintenance issue. I would really like to run the new 36 Talas but I cannot believe they regressed in the wheel removal department. At $1200 I shouldn't have to worry about loosing a mounting bolt or potentially stripping out a magnesium lower threaded hole while changing out a flat on the trail somewhere. Man that's like changing the channel w/o a remote! haha I bet Fox changes that in a year.

I have re-thought the RockShox Pike option too. I'm just not sure what size travel to run. Switchbacktrog, I re-read your comments and realized you are running this fork. Would this be your recommendation? If so, what size travel....and why?

I'm not trying to overthink this whole build but I've never had the opportunity to build a bike up before and this thing is going to cost more than my car so I want to get it right. If you have any dream build ideas on components, I'm all ears.

I have nailed down one component though. I think for brakes the Shimano Saint M820's calipers and levers are my first choice. Can't run the Saint rotors though as they are only available in center lock and I will need a standard 6 bolt to mount to the Chris King ISO disc hubs in 142x12 spacing. I think XT rotors in 203mm are the next best option, model RT86.

hrod


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

Hrod, we too use a Fox 34, non talas, with a fit damper cartridge. At a team weight of 280, we can pretty easily overwhelm the Fox with the right combination of speed and techy terrain. As mentioned, we get a LOT of creaking and popping which has really started to concern me as the fork is NOT tandem rated.

I have looked hard at the Pike and the new Fox 36 but agree that the wheel removal isn't ideal. I have seen an aftermarket 15mm skewer for the new Fox that makes it a quick release.

I will be buying a new fork this Spring and it will most likely be the new MRP Stage. It is tandem rated, 120-160mm of travel, 35mm stanchions and has gotten great reviews.

I've been a fanboi of how the Fox made our tandem ride. However, I've become more and more concerned over the past 2 years about the safety and reliability factor. We like to ride hard on rough singlet rack with some races thrown in and I can't imagine what would happen if that fork failed. YMMV.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

mhopton said:


> Hrod, we too use a Fox 34, non talas, with a fit damper cartridge. At a team weight of 280, we can pretty easily overwhelm the Fox with the right combination of speed and techy terrain. As mentioned, we get a LOT of creaking and popping which has really started to concern me as the fork is NOT tandem rated.
> 
> I have looked hard at the Pike and the new Fox 36 but agree that the wheel removal isn't ideal. I have seen an aftermarket 15mm skewer for the new Fox that makes it a quick release.
> 
> ...


Failure is not really an option...

In regards to the fork, a well setup less travel fork will easily out run a longer travel fork that is vague.

With a tandem, I never expected any of the forks we have run, to work well off-road, out of the box on a tandem.

There is a difference between tandem rated and tandem performance. The lighter and less aggressive the team, plus the less technical the terrain the more easily a production fork with no mods will handle the call to duty.

I still hold fast that on a hardtail those big clunky ATC forks when modified to work better are one of the best forks for a hardtail. When on the ECDM it was fine with the RP series rear shock, but once the rear got real good the fork could not keep up.

For me, the Fox 40 is the brute get it done, whether controlled, uncontrolled, over the top with style or not fork.

You hang on to confidence...and the first few parts of confidence is grips, bars, stem, fork, most else, like your stoker is along for the ride sometimes.

Buy strong, go on a diet to save weight...

All the best whatever you decide.

PK


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

IMO, I think a dual crown fork is the standard on a tandem. I have had 4 tandems over the years( Curtlo hardtail, 1 ECDM and two El Testigo's) on the Curtlo, we did run a single crown fork, that's all there was at the time, but all the others, I've run Hanebrink, RockShox Boxxer and a Fox 40.
That all being said, I don't believe there is a dual crown for the 29er, but I would run the stiffest single crown available if it were me.
In our prime, we were a 300 lb team, slightly heavier than that now.


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

> I have re-thought the RockShox Pike option too. I'm just not sure what size travel to run. Switchbacktrog, I re-read your comments and realized you are running this fork. Would this be your recommendation? If so, what size travel....and why?


The Pike is a great fork but I'm not sure what travel to recommend at the moment. Currently we are running at 140mm which gives a higher BB height and reduces pedal strikes, but the handling is still not as good as the demo bike we rode with a Fox 36 at 120mm. We had to add a couple of "bottomless tokens" to prop the front up a bit more with the Pike, but I think the're shipping them with them added now as everyone was adding them anyway. Here's another thread about the geometry 
http://forums.mtbr.com/tandem-mountain-bikes/ecdm-geometry-925544.html

Edit: Just realised your are running 29" rather than our 26" so I would think that 120mm would be just right.



> I have nailed down one component though. I think for brakes the Shimano Saint M820's calipers and levers are my first choice. Can't run the Saint rotors though as they are only available in center lock. I think XT rotors in 203mm are the next best option, model RT86.


Exactly the same as us.............


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So we have the WB 100mm fork that comes standard on the Fandango. I see a lot of discussion on using solo forks as tandem forks. It seems like there are more cons to using a non tandem rated fork than there are pros.

I weight 200#, my wife is a svelte 150#, we ride steep, technical terrain and the WB handles it with no creaking, it has great dampening, and it never bottoms or bobs.

All of the solo forks on the market are targeted at a weight range of 120-180#, so even a 200# person like myself has to tweak a fork to make it work well.

Why not use the WB? Is it because it's only 100mm? Do you really want to use 120mm on a tandem? Five inches of front suspension, that's a whole lot of energy loss and boom drop.

It sounds like the MRP Stage is worth waiting for...

Devil's advocate here, just adding another opinion.

Also, I just started running Guide CSR on my 29er FS and I relaly like them, super powerful, great feel, awesome adjustability.



mhopton said:


> Hrod, we too use a Fox 34, non talas, with a fit damper cartridge. At a team weight of 280, we can pretty easily overwhelm the Fox with the right combination of speed and techy terrain. As mentioned, we get a LOT of creaking and popping which has really started to concern me as the fork is NOT tandem rated.
> 
> I have looked hard at the Pike and the new Fox 36 but agree that the wheel removal isn't ideal. I have seen an aftermarket 15mm skewer for the new Fox that makes it a quick release.
> 
> ...


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> I don't believe there is a dual crown for the 29er...


FWIW, here ya go, Jeff.

Dorado | Manitou


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

Awww, forgot about the Manitou....think White Bros had one a few years back also.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

The ATC fork is able to accommodate all wheels sizes, and if new triple clamps and axle were made, it would work on a fat bike.

This guy wants a QR front wheel with large axle so that rules out ATC.

ATC stock is a hit or miss, modified they work pretty well and are Energizer Bunny reliable.

PK


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## hrod (Jan 8, 2015)

So I've nailed down my fork choice for our 300 lb. team. Tomorrow I'm picking up a 2015 Fox 36 Float in 140mm. I really wanted to get the Talas version which would give me adjustable travel but I got talked out of it for various reasons. We will ride the fork for a bit at 140 but if we don't like the handling we might adjust it down to 130 or 120mm travel. This is done internally. Going to run the 20mm thru axle too.

I was really hung up on the lack of quick release but surfing the web I found this:
Q36R Quick Release | FlowZone

After talking with Ethan at Mavericksuspension.com about his quick release I decided to go ahead and purchase the fork with the QR already installed for a pretty good price.

I also pulled the trigger on a wheelset. I'm getting them built up at Colorado Cyclist. Getting Chris King ISO disc hubs front and rear. 20mm thru axle on the front and 142x12 on the rear with the stainless steel upgraded shell. 36 hole with double butted spokes and brass nipples on Stan's No Tubes Flow EX rims, 30mm wide. I wanted to go with the Blunt 35's but they didn't carry those. I've seen other 29er tandems with this rim so I'm hoping they will be adequate.

Now on to cranks. I have a buddy who designs these WickWerks rings: https://wickwerks.com/products/mountain-triple-443322/ 
so I thought I would run these with his new 34 teeth timing chainrings with a bashguard on the front timing ring. That was a easy decision.

What is difficult is deciding on the cranks. It seems the three choices are Middleburn, Profile or Divinci. I really didn't want to use the old square taper design spindle in 17mm when current designs use 24 or even 30mm spindles. Road cranks have the wrong BCD to run a tooth count that is low enough for off road use apparently. Any suggestions for me on this?

I've decided to run Shimano Saint brakes. Does anyone know a part number for the caliper adapter on the rear so I can run 203mm rotors? Also, I imagine that the brakes won't come with long enough hydraulic hose. Any recommendations there?

I welcome everyone's input on this build!

hrod


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

hrod said:


> I've decided to run Shimano Saint brakes. Does anyone know a part number for the caliper adapter on the rear so I can run 203mm rotors? Also, I imagine that the brakes won't come with long enough hydraulic hose. Any recommendations there?
> 
> hrod


Just get a new one made up. I would go for a braided hose to reduce the "spongey" feel on the lever that is caused by the long length.

Rear adapter on ours is SM-MA-R203 P/S ............








You may need one for the front as well, as it looks like the 36 is made to accept 180mm as standard.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

After some photos I have seen about failed Shimano mounts, I would go with the sexy Hopes.

Saint Failure - Trials Chat - Trials-Forum


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

I would imagine that the brake loading on a trials bike would be much more abrupt, especially when landing with the brake already applied hard. I might swap to a Hope just in case though.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

I wish there were more options for tandem cranks. Square taper seems to be the norm. My personal experience has been with DaVinci and they have worked well. I think that Middleburns are very comparable.

I was eyeing that adapter for the Fox fork to add QR. Looks like a good solution and Ethan has done nothing but impress me to date. My only personal reservation on that Fox 36 fork is that I understand that there is not a lock out. Is that the case?

FWIW - I have yet to use the braided hydraulic hose and never felt the "spongy" feel, but maybe I just don't know what I'm missing?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

switchbacktrog said:


> I would imagine that the brake loading on a trials bike would be much more abrupt, especially when landing with the brake already applied hard. I might swap to a Hope just in case though.


Agree, though the Avid and Hopes are not known to fail. FWIW, few trials guys run 200mm discs.

This guy is not afraid to build a nice bike, so may as well do it nice especially out west and a bigger team.

PK


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## hrod (Jan 8, 2015)

PMK said:


> After some photos I have seen about failed Shimano mounts, I would go with the sexy Hopes.
> 
> Saint Failure - Trials Chat - Trials-Forum


I think my takeaway after checking out the Saint adaptor failure is that maybe a beefier adapter-other than Shimano-might be in order. BTW, switchbacktrog, thanks for sending me the adapter part numbers!

Picked up my Fox 36 Float today from Ethan at Maverick Suspension. Ethan spent quite a bit of time schooling me on the fork. Based on my input and application he took the fork apart and added some volume spacers and set it up for me. Hopefully I won't have to do much to it other than cutting the steerer tube and playing with a few clicks here and there.

The fork doesn't have a lockout or the Climb Trail Descend (CTD) mode so I've read here: http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/2015-fox-36-a-914572.html
that many riders use the low speed compression adjustment to to firm it up on a climb. I would have preferred a lockout of some sort but it seems no fork that I considered had every feature that I wanted.

Anyone have any additional info on crank options for me?

hrod


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Not crank related, in regards to the fork, we do not run lock out on the 40, but a properly set up low speed compression with the correct spring rate or air volume / pressure will be a pretty stable platform that performs well.

Lock out seems in my opinion is more a function to use when standing. Our tandem riding involves little standing and mostly just coordinated pedal strokes.

As for cranks, if you go Profile, you may be the first. I looked into it a while back and opted out. While not what you want, you may be trapped into square tapers.

Both of our tandems are turning older Race Face cranks. The ECDM is square tapers and the CoMotion is on ISIS. They may be out there but seem pretty rare. Especially the 175 stokers. I have a set of spare RF cranks in 175 / 170 ISIS black. If I could find a set of 175 black ISIS RF stoker cranks I would convert both bikes to ISIS and deal with it.

Assuming you will need the stiffer cranks, what are your current favorite cranks? Consider that it is very viable to use those cranks in the front and rethread the pedal bores. Then, on the rear, run the middleburns for your stoker. May need to get the best BB possible since Shimano is not offering high end square BB any longer.

I installed Origin 8 BB's in the ECDM recently, before install I fully disassembled, greased the bearings, and found they work well and spin very free. We do have a recent creak and I am suspect it is one of the BB cups.

PK


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

Just a comment on the lockout, we have that feature and even on long fire road climbs, we aren't using the lockout. 

The new Fox 36 should have much better support to keep it higher in its stroke than the older damper versions. I'm not sure if it uses a mid-valve or is just properly tuned. 

I'll be very curious to hear your opinion of the fork once up and running.


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

In regards to brakes, Hope is the only brake of all Ive tried for my tandem(s)that didnt fail.
As far as cranks go, I was thinking of trying some GXP style cranks and either running a 2x10, with the 3rd ring used as a timing ring or a 3x10 with a 4th chainring installed as the timing ring. Has anyone tried this? I would think this would work, but the only concern I may have is the front derailluer coming in contact with the chainring and/or chain.


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## hrod (Jan 8, 2015)

ds2199 said:


> I wish there were more options for tandem cranks. Square taper seems to be the norm. My personal experience has been with DaVinci and they have worked well. I think that Middleburns are very comparable.


So back to crank/BB options. Have you seen what the 2015 Cannondale Tandem 29er is using for cranks? Tandem 29er - TANDEM 29 - FITNESS - FITNESS & URBAN - BIKES - 2015

If the Truvativ FireX tandem crankset is a viable option, I can't seem to find it in America. Here it is on eBay but they are in Germany and don't ship to America. I could use it in shorter arms as well, but it is less than $300!

Truvativ Firex Tandem Kurbelgarnitur 10 Fach 44 33 22 Innenlager Hammerpreis | eBay

If I could get this setup is anyone familiar with it?

hrod


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

I believe Hurricane Jeff is talking about the same cranks. I speculate these are Fire X crank arms broached for ISIS BB.

As I mentioned, you could get three sets and have, I thin Davinci, rethread the pedal holes.

Sad part is, you won't need all the extra chairings.

PK


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

My current cranks are FSA carbon team issue that I got direct from FSA several years ago. They sent three drive side cranks and 1 non drive side. I use Time pedals, but instead of re-threading the cranks, I got some pedal spindles and traded left for right and right for left, it has worked flawlessly.
The cranks I mentioned above would be anyone's brand of gxp cranks(24mm spindle) for single bikes, and add a chainring with spacers to the the rear drive side, therefore having the drive and timing chain all on the right side.


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## hrod (Jan 8, 2015)

Well I've pulled the trigger and ordered everything for my build. I was going to wait and report to everyone once it was built but it will be a couple of weeks until I get everything in and built up so here is a detailed list of my plan in the mean time.

Fork: 2015 Fox Float 36 in 140mm travel w/quick release from Flow Zone, 20mm axel
Wheelset: Chris King hubs w/stainless steel upgrade, 36 spoke, Stan's Flow EX rims
Headset: Cane Creek 40, 44/56
Bars:Easton Haven Carbon mtb bar
Stems: Thompson & Control Tech stoker stem
Seatposts: 29.2 Thompson Elite's
Saddles: Terry Butterfly & undecided
Brakes: Shimano M820 Saints w/ XT 203mm rotors & 2000mm hydrolic hose
Shifters: Sram 3x10 speed, grip shift, XO front & rear der.
Tires: WTB WeirWolf AM TCS 2.3
Pedals: Shimano XT pedals, M780
Crankset: Truvativ FireX tandem w/GXP bottom brackets (eBay find from France)
Cassette:Sram 10 speed cassette 12-36t, PG-1070
Chain:SRAM PC-1091 Chain. Haven't decided on timing chain yet
Chainrings: Wickwerks 22/33/44
Shimano front caliper adapter, part # SM-MA-F180P/P2. Rear: SM-MA-R203 P/S

I tried to be specific for the next guy building up a frame. He might choose other parts but at least he will have a baseline to start.

With some luck I'll have this together for Spring Break and take the misses to Moab or Fruita. We can't wait. We've had a good bit of snow in Colorado Springs that is melting off now. We rode our old tandem Saturday afternoon and between the lingering snow and the mud it was quite a workout. It took 30 minutes in the dark to wash the mud off. Come on Spring!

hrod


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

As a suggestion for the timing chain and rings, I run Spot 32t single speed chain rings with a Wipperman single speed chain. You dont want or need ramps and shift pins on your timing rings.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

Hopefully you'll have the ECDM build up soon. It really is the best offroad tandem out there. Here's us in Fruita on Monday.


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> As a suggestion for the timing chain and rings, I run Spot 32t single speed chain rings with a Wipperman single speed chain. You dont want or need ramps and shift pins on your timing rings.


"Narrow/Wide" rings seem to be the way to go, with a one piece single-speed chain.


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## hrod (Jan 8, 2015)

Switchbacktrog, what do you mean by narrow/wide rings? Also are there different types or size/gauge single speed chains? Or do I just ask for a Wipperman SS chain, for example?

Ebnelson, nice pic in Fruita. I guess your stoker was the only photographer around haha.

Just checked on my order and all of my parts should be arriving Tuesday or Wednesday so I'm hoping we might make it to Fruita the following week. Hopefully my next post will be with pics of the frame with parts attached!

hrod


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ebnelson said:


> Hopefully you'll have the ECDM build up soon. It really is the best offroad tandem out there. Here's us in Fruita on Monday.
> View attachment 973000


Was talking tandems with a very good friend on Saturday. He has ECDM 29, built pretty sweet since he owns a bike shop. Also, he is one very talented mtb rider with a strong stoker.

Discussion was about riding they did last weekend. We had previously ridden the same trails. Comparing notes, we both agreed at how incredible the ECDM is at conquering serious technical single bike features.

One particular section we compared notes on, they rode clean while we had not been able to pull it off. We both seem pretty certain the single crown (Fox 34 / 29) vs double crown Fox 40 / 26) we run did not let us turn enough after getting over the huge rocks.

They are incredible machines.

PK


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

We really do need an ecdm....I'm gonna have to pull the trigger soon.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

switchbacktrog said:


> "Narrow/Wide" rings seem to be the way to go, with a one piece single-speed chain.


It seems like narrow wide chainrings for the timing chain will work well, in fact we included them in our build of the fat tandem. I will say that we have never actually had any problems with traditional (non ramped) timing rings on several other tandems.

One item that might be noteworthy with the narrow wide rings is that you might not be able to get the captain and stokers cranks perfectly synched (i.e. both at 90 degrees) because you have to move 2 teeth at a time vs. regular rings that you can move a one tooth at time. It is barely noticeable, but I know that the cranks are not exactly parallel when we are standing together...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

ebnelson said:


> Hopefully you'll have the ECDM build up soon. It really is the best offroad tandem out there. Here's us in Fruita on Monday.
> View attachment 973000


We're looping out to SLC, Moab, Fruita for Spring Break in two weeks. I was wondering about temps, but seeing you in shorts and short sleeves is good news.

I wish we could ride in the woods; we live where it's dry and treeless, but our high mountains are either still snowed in or soggy. The trees will open up in the next couple months...

What trail are you riding in that pic?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

switchbacktrog said:


> "Narrow/Wide" rings seem to be the way to go, with a one piece single-speed chain.


I'd stay away from NW rings for timing, NW is not necessary as the chain always stays tensioned and on the same teeth. Those rings should be stainless steel (no ramps needed) for longer wear.

For final drive 2x, NW rings won't work because you change teeth.

For final drive 1x, NW chainrings work, but because they are aluminum, they will wear quickly; also they cost $$

The NW chainrings will soon be available in steel, direct mount, which is really the best way to go for all high intensity uses.

For a less expensive option, left side timing/right side final drive tandem 1 x, use a chain keeper on the inside and a bash guard on the outside.

For the Jefe we're using shimano steel rings in front (22, 24, 26, swapable for terrain), simple and cheap, the Type 2 deraileurs are higher tension and do a good job of keeping the chain tensioned, the timing chainring on the outside will prevent chain jump to the outside, on the inside we'll have a keeper (like this one, modified to fit):

Chain Keeper from Paul Component Engineering


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

I'm surprised more teams don't opt for a Rohloff. We've run ours nearly 5k mi with no issues aside from some inconsequential leakage on the divide. Before that we had a dérailleur'ed bike — with the added maintenance that comes with it. I've seen very few Rohloff ECDMs, never in the flesh. If I got a ECDM, it would have Rohloff. Does the added cost turn people off?


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## sportsnapper (Apr 24, 2014)

ds2199 is correct, the cranks will not be in exact synchronisation - but we used to run with the Captain cranks slightly ahead of the stoker anyway well before we went to narrow wide rings. It's slightly easier to start for the Captain, as his crank isn't so high, and also allows a better power stroke from the stoker when starting. During normal riding you don't notice the difference.


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

hrod said:


> Switchbacktrog, what do you mean by narrow/wide rings? Also are there different types or size/gauge single speed chains? Or do I just ask for a Wipperman SS chain, for example?


Have a look at this link for more info..................http://forums.mtbr.com/tandem-mountain-bikes/timing-chain-derailment-917522-2.html

I'm not sure about different SS chains...................I get the one piece(only one joining link needed KMC X1)from here......

Components - Chains & Spares - JD Tandems


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> We're looping out to SLC, Moab, Fruita for Spring Break in two weeks. I was wondering about temps, but seeing you in shorts and short sleeves is good news.
> 
> I wish we could ride in the woods; we live where it's dry and treeless, but our high mountains are either still snowed in or soggy. The trees will open up in the next couple months...
> 
> What trail are you riding in that pic?


This was in the Rabbit Valley area just to the west of Fruita. So technically, not in Fruita but close. The ride is this Rabbit Valley to Western Rim Mountain Bike Trail, Loma, CO I would recommend driving up to the McDonald Creek Trail head to avoid a bunch of sandy 4x4 road riding if your vehicle is up to some off-roading.

It's 80 degrees F for the last two days here on the CO front range. Hard to believe its still winter.


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## hrod (Jan 8, 2015)

*In honor of Easter....it is finished!*

So here is our baby in all it's glory. It took me longer to build up than I anticipated. I'm slow, but I try to be thorough. A few problems with ordering parts from my LBS didn't help either, like they ordered me two carbon handlebars in 35mm instead of 31.8 so we have aluminum loaners for now. I didn't even know that there was such a size.

There are a few items left undone besides the bars. I am planning to replace the fork sticker with one in a black, white and red theme. I've got to dial in the suspension as it is way too plush.

I also got the wrong brake adapter for the front. It should be a Shimano SM-MA-F203-P/PM. The fork comes set up for a 180mm rotor but to run a 203 you need the one listed above. Fox and Hope make them as well. The 2000mm brake line that I purchased to run all the way to the rear brakes could stand to be a tad longer but that was the longest Shimano sold in a kit.

Looking forward to getting in some riding now!

hrod


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Looks wicked, hrod. Nice bike and build.

QR seat collars?

Do update on the Fox 36 performance.

Cheers,

Mike


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

Looks great. We have similar builds. I had a 36 on for the last couple of rides and are getting used to it. The improvements of the 36 over the 34 seem to be in several areas. First, the 36 has a negative air spring that equalizes to the air in the main spring chamber. The result is that the axle to crown length does not grow at high air pressures. The result is that the fork length stays at just longer than the Ventana spec (we are travel reduced down a bit). Second, the fork is stiffer and feels very responsive on the trail. Third, the damping is working so well that we need to work on the rear end now. We have been using the 36 at 125psi and with the high and low speed dampers set half way through the clicks, which is 12 by my count. We are going to get some volume reducers to play with but so far we are happy with the stock spring rate.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Looks pretty sweet. Agree the FOX clown sticker needs to go. Not sure of the places you ride, a tip from experience, be very cautious not to drag that front timing ring on anything solid like crossing a fallen tree. You might consider a chainring style bash guard to prevent folding the chainring.

Looks very nice and hope you get many happy miles with it.

PK


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

I think the sticker looks quite nice, if you get the gold ones.


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

Nelson, a zoom in of your pic above looks like you are running carbon wheels. If so, which ones are they and what do you think? 

We are waiting on a new set of wheels built around some Nox Farlow carbon rims. I'm excited to get them and give them a try.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

So far so good on the carbon rims. The jury is still out though. I'm worried about galvanic corrosion the aluminum nipples. We broke one nipple so far but I don't know the cause. We broke a spoke/nipple once on our Flows but this seems too quickly on the carbon rim. I'm lacing the rim up to a new hub for our new 142x12 rear swing arm this morning. I wanted to put on nipple washers, but the special Sapim nipple washers that allow better axial alignment (nipple to spoke) had to be ordered from out of state. I'm building the same as before, DT Swiss Super Comps with included Al nipples. I considered some nylon washers (than would crush) to act as a electrical insulator between the nipple and rim but I didn't want the spokes to de-tension due to crushing washers. There are always brass nipples if I start breaking nipples on a regular basis.

Anyway, they ride nice and offer very precise steering with the Fox 36 up front. They are 35mm wide 32 hole and seal up tubeless easily. The rims are Chinese, specifically Light Bicycle. The stoker is 90lbs so we usually can get away with single bike parts.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

The spokes I had around the house were too long. Now building with DT Comp and brass thread lock nipples.


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

I really like the black rear triangle, my El Testigo has a matte black front end with the polished rear, after seeing yours, might disassemble my rear triangle and get it anodized black.
BTW, its hard to tell, is yours a 26er or 29er? Mine is currently a 26er, but with adjustable rear dropouts, thinking about converting it to 27.5, which will fit.


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## [email protected] (Oct 25, 2014)

*Another New team and new 29er ECDM*

Since this forum has been a fun and invaluable source of information for us in deciding on our new bike, I wanted to post a one year review for anyone out there trying to make the same decision.

For five seasons we had been rolling around the hills of NE Washington on our fully rigid 1998 Cannondale MT800 before deciding it was time to upgrade. We ended up with a Ventana ECDM from Alex at MTBtandems after choosing between it, the Fandango, and the not yet released at the time Salsa Powderkeg. I knew 29er wheels were a must but struggled with the suspension vs. no suspension question. Besides reading this forum and discussing with my stoker, I also went for a rough trail ride on my Salsa El Mariachi hard tail (no suspension seat post) and stayed seated the entire time in an attempt to replicate the "stoker experience".

We ordered the ECDM just before the El Jefe was released (arghh!) but in the end we are very content with the ECDM as a do-it-all-well tandem. Our rides tend to be mixes of pavement, double track and single track and the bikes 29er wheels and rear suspension handle it all great. We put the shock in climb mode on pavement and leave it in trail mode for everything else but the rockiest descents. I no longer have to call out "bump" except for the biggest launchers and we tend to carry more speed over the gnar. I've gotten back the feeling of "flow" from riding a single that was missing on the MT800 since I was always on the rim brakes for bumps. The ECDM is both smoother and more "dynamic" feeling than I believed possible for a tandem mountain bike.

As far as the build, everything has been great except the WTB Wolverine tire on the back which lacked traction on our loamy trails. I replaced it with a 2.25 WTB Trail Boss. We're a heavy team (325+, depending on amount of homebrew the night before) and the double crown LOOP fork Alex recommended gives the bike a control factor completely missing on the MT800. If I miss a line it's easy to muscle the bike where I want it to go. The Magura MT5s have been trouble free with plenty of power. They squeal a bit when wet but are otherwise silent which is a new experience for me with disk brakes. My only complaint is the pads seem to wear quickly but then we are riding so much more now and dropping steep lines we were afraid to take with the MT800.

The only negative to the ECDM I've identified is the high center of gravity with the big hoops. But since we rarely have pedal strikes now and clear just about everything the MT800 used to hit we think it's an acceptable down side. I suppose another negative is that we've got a backlog of stuff that needs done around the house because we spend all our free time on the bike!

All in all, we are very satisfied with the bike and feel like it's a perfect build on a perfect frame and wouldn't hesitate to recommend Ventana or MTBtandems.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Love to hear these kind of stories!

Buying a tandem mountain bike from Alex at MTB Tandems | Home, may have been the best decision I have ever made. Wait, 2nd best decision, after marrying my wife.


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## [email protected] (Oct 25, 2014)

Cool...I couldn't agree more, exactly how I feel about it.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> Love to hear these kind of stories!
> 
> Buying a tandem mountain bike from Alex at MTB Tandems | Home, may have been the best decision I have ever made. Wait, 2nd best decision, after marrying my wife.


Glad you clarified that! Thanks for the kind words.


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