# what is considered steep? argument with fellow rider



## jasonjm (May 4, 2011)

assuming not easy terrain on single track, such as loose dirt and or lots of small loose rocks

was having "argument" with fellow rider, he reckons almost all single tracks hit 30 degrees slope at some sections and it isn't that hard (these are non DH trails).

I was arguing, no most single tracks the average person rides don't even get to 20 degrees, more like 15 degrees, and 30 degrees continuous slope is really tough stuff.

20 degree gradient = steep
25 degree = challenging
30 degree = really tough


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## Uncle Six Pack (Aug 29, 2004)

jasonjm said:


> assuming not easy terrain on single track, such as loose dirt and or lots of small loose rocks
> 
> was having "argument" with fellow rider, he reckons almost all single tracks hit 30 degrees slope at some sections and it isn't that hard (these are non DH trails).
> 
> ...


Most people are not very good at estimating trail grade. Along with that, most people would disagree as to what is steep, very steep, or holy crap that's steep depending on where they ride and experience level.

With all that in mind and assuming "regular" trail riding, I don't think most people could keep a sustained climb (like a minute or more) on a 25 degree grade. Likewise, a 30 degree descent would require good brake modulation and/or a wide-open trail. In either case, even if a rider didn't consider 25-30 degrees fairly extreme, the truth is most trails will become skidded, rutted out, erosion nightmares beyond 20 degrees unless maintenance and conditions are top-notch.

For shuttle trails and lift-access where it is all down and bikes are designed for it, it is a different story, but erosion will still be an issue as rocks and roots get very exposed.

And grades expressed as a % are a whole different story: a 30% grade is just a bit over 15 degrees.... 100% is 45 degrees. So 30 degrees vs 30% is apples and oranges.


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## Uncle Six Pack (Aug 29, 2004)

ps, there are obviously short g-outs, jumps, ledges and stuff that go 30 degrees or more, but now you are talking about a very small, specific part of a trail, something you pass by in an instant.


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## jasonjm (May 4, 2011)

ah hell i didnt even know that the grade and degrees was different

let me go look what i was using as a reference

whats the little mini o symbol? degrees right?

if so I was talking about degrees

and for references purposes of the argument I was talking about sections where the slope is at a continuous degree slope for at least 60 feet in distance


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## fgiraffe (Aug 30, 2004)

Wiki is everyone's friend! Grade (slope) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Esses (May 10, 2012)

45 degrees is considered steep in skiing. ...like double diamond expert only chutes and couloir steep. I would think 30 degrees would be a typical black diamond run at a ski resort.

So, yeah... I think you're right. Some techy trails may get as steep as 30 degrees, but probably just for short sections.


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## pinkrobe (Jan 30, 2004)

Yeah, 45 degrees on snow gets the pucker factor going pretty good. I rode something like that at SnowH2O [heli], and I hesitated, but once I was on the [wide open, treeless, powder-filled] face it was all good. Now 45 degrees on a bike, it would be hard to keep your CG behind the front axle and/or front contact point. Brix may be shat.


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## StuLax18 (Sep 27, 2011)

Based upon Strava data in regards to elevation change and difference, the local DH trail I ride the most averages about a 7 degree slope, with the max around 20ish degrees, although that's kind of a guess. In person, I'd say it's 20-30 at its steepest.


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## PerfectZero (Jul 22, 2010)

Yeah its usually hard for me to tell steepness when I'm on it. This is about 40 degrees at the top for example:


If it were dirt I wouldn't even think about biking down something like that for a continuous distance. I'm sure some people on here could do it though. 50 deg looks like an elevator shaft to me.


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## genemk (Sep 15, 2009)

Yeah, typical DH biking trails (as in trails at Whistler) are in the 6-10 degree range for an average across the whole trail. What someone said about ski slopes is pretty accurate. Most non-DH trails probably don't go beyond 15 degrees for any length of distance (at least the ones around Oregon).


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## LeeL (Jan 12, 2004)

A blue slope in Skiing is a pretty steep slope in biking. Blues run 25-35 degrees approximately or 58 furlongs if you're American


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## Rob-Bob (Jun 11, 2004)

It's steep if you can't walk down or up the trail without falling on your ass.


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## myarmisonfire (Mar 28, 2005)

genemk said:


> Yeah, typical DH biking trails (as in trails at Whistler) are in the 6-10 degree range for an average across the whole trail. What someone said about ski slopes is pretty accurate. Most non-DH trails probably don't go beyond 15 degrees for any length of distance (at least the ones around Oregon).


From talking with Tyler Morland at Whistler a few years back the 'perfect' grade for a trail is an average of 5%. It tends to provide that feeling of ripping it up without needing to brake often. On Aline any areas above 7% are covered in breaking bumps as they cause most riders to gain speed faster than they like. Bikes trails are flat by skiing standards!


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Champery WC 2011

It's really steep when my rearend rubs the back tire


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## recitio (Dec 22, 2011)

cyclelicious said:


> It's really steep when my rearend rubs the back tire


That about nails it.


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## Huck Pitueee (Apr 25, 2009)

At 30 deg you're using both brakes hard and working the modulation. Even then you're tearing the stuffing out of the trail.


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## jasonjm (May 4, 2011)

Huck Pitueee said:


> At 30 deg you're using both brakes hard and working the modulation. Even then you're tearing the stuffing out of the trail.


yeah or peeling my face off the trail


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

Steep where its not walkable at all and riding it is using your back brake as a rudder because slowing down isn't going to happen you just kick it the direction you need to aim while gaining speed and laying way back.

Been on several like that in n.Idaho mountains and here in socal.

Don't know how steep it is but I do know thinking about it before you drop in isn't smart, ride on reaction not so much thought...


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## CombatMutt (Jan 3, 2011)

What's steep? When I'm on a trail and I suddenly realize, "Crap, this was a bad idea."


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

CombatMutt said:


> What's steep? When I'm on a trail and I suddenly realize, "Crap, this was a bad idea."


Pucker factor scale!


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

View this thread, it'll show ya what steeep is  http://forums.mtbr.com/passion/steeeeeeeeeeep-184977.html


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

LyNx said:


> View this thread, it'll show ya what steeep is  http://forums.mtbr.com/passion/steeeeeeeeeeep-184977.html


That looks like a colon! Steep and deep lol!


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## shawnp (Jun 18, 2010)

CombatMutt said:


> What's steep? When I'm on a trail and I suddenly realize, "Crap, this was a bad idea."


I can agree with this...


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## Will Goes Boing (Jan 25, 2008)

Steep is when you can't actually walk down.... you have to slide down. 

Steep is when your brakes can barely slow you down much less help you stop.


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## schlockinz (Feb 6, 2009)

cyclelicious said:


> It's really steep when my rearend rubs the back tire[/QUOTE]
> 
> Engaging the old third brake eh?


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

steep == butt hanging off the back rubbing on rear tire of my XC bike

challenging == butt hanging off the back rubbing on rear tire of my AM bike with post lowered 2"

really tough == butt hanging off the back getting massage from the knobs on the rear tire of my DH bike that has the saddle slammed to the frame


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## ghglenn (Jan 26, 2012)

Steep is when you cannot walk down it but might be able to ride down it....that is steep. 

As stated earlier the average trail doesn't exceed a grade of 15 for very far. 
The steep trails tend to wash out down the fall line very easily.


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## charging_rhinos (Jul 29, 2008)

Yep. It is all a measure of pucker factor for me.


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## DHgnaR (Feb 20, 2008)

The steepest trail I ride is about 20% average (11 degrees) the first half, then gets scary the second half where the average is probably somewhere around 50% (27 degrees) and gets straight up and down a few times.
It starts dropping fast around 2:40, right after the step-down. The super slow sections are near vertical.






Untitled from KoppoJutsu on Vimeo.


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## mpmffitz (Jul 18, 2008)

Steep is where if use your brakes your going to crash more than if did not. 

Don't argue ride!!


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## fryed_1 (Nov 8, 2010)

If it looks steep on a gopro, then it probably is.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

fryed_1 said:


> If it looks steep on a gopro, then it probably *was free-fall*.


fixed.


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## Uncle Six Pack (Aug 29, 2004)

ghglenn said:


> Steep is when you cannot walk down it but might be able to ride down it....that is steep.


That is funny. Just reading that post reminds me of some pretty hairball sections that I would never even think of walking, but ride (fairly) regularly.


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## Skeptastic (Mar 31, 2012)

LyNx said:


> View this thread, it'll show ya what steeep is  http://forums.mtbr.com/passion/steeeeeeeeeeep-184977.html


Dopest thread ever, craziest thread ever. :thumbsup:


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## jmallory (Jul 29, 2008)

Evan at Tower in San Luis Obispo, California, United States - photo by erbissell - Pinkbike

Steeper than it looks and it looks steep!


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

^^ You should probably remove the name of that trail from the link.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

My buddy in UT just nabbed this line. Same area that the Rampage takes place. This is definitely steeper than I would ever ride.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

myarmisonfire said:


> From talking with Tyler Morland at Whistler a few years back the 'perfect' grade for a trail is an average of 5%. It tends to provide that feeling of ripping it up without needing to brake often. On Aline any areas above 7% are covered in breaking bumps as they cause most riders to gain speed faster than they like. Bikes trails are flat by skiing standards!


That's been my experience with trails around here. Most of the established USFS trails are a little under 10% but there are a few in the 5% range. At 9%-10% I'm braking more than pedaling, but at 5% I'm on the gas most of the time. I'd still say that my favorite trail is one that's a solid 9% for 4.5 miles, out-and-back. Least favorite climb, but absolute favorite downhill.

There's a local fall-line chute I ride semi-regularly that peaks at about 75% grade near as I can figure (my best available GIS data shows it dropping 100 feet in 130 feet). I pushed a bike up it once as a shortcut, but it was miserable enough that I won't ever do that again. It's a butt-buzzer coming down.

As mentioned earlier, here's an illustration of percent / slope grade:


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## Stewieftw (Jul 29, 2021)

jasonjm said:


> assuming not easy terrain on single track, such as loose dirt and or lots of small loose rocks
> 
> was having "argument" with fellow rider, he reckons almost all single tracks hit 30 degrees slope at some sections and it isn't that hard (these are non DH trails).
> 
> ...


Where I ride there are 45-100% gradient climbs. Its about 45 degrees slopes that maxes out at 60 with loose dirt. It's extremely difficult to do because the trails are never maintained. The problem with mtb climbs is not power it's the traction because same path on asphalt or cement would be very doable. Trail maintenance has become a challenge for bikers but ultimately it builds better racers.???‍♀


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## shwinn8 (Feb 25, 2006)

9yr.old thread.. I'll take a stab.. what's "steep" .. I don't think you can logically put an angle of degree to define what steep is. the terrain changes drastically every foot. what is steep to one might not be steep to another. but I would say if your ass is hitting the rear tire constantly while rolling down rock gardens with lots of rock drops, I would say that's steep


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

It's not steep until you get to Moab...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## shwinn8 (Feb 25, 2006)

Shark said:


> It's not steep until you get to Moab...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Hells Revenge is pretty darn steep... I still have dreams of shuttling Top Of The World


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

30 degrees is pretty damn steep. 45 degrees looks like a vertical wall when you stand at the top or bottom of it.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

A 30degree slope is impossible to cycle up. It's also known as a 50% gradient.. .. 
Yeah right good luck to your friend


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)




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## Stewieftw (Jul 29, 2021)

kpdemello said:


> 30 degrees is pretty damn steep. 45 degrees looks like a vertical wall when you stand at the top or bottom of it.


45 is doable but rough


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## Stewieftw (Jul 29, 2021)

Brad said:


> A 30degree slope is impossible to cycle up. It's also known as a 50% gradient.. ..
> Yeah right good luck to your friend


I just did 30 today on an aluminum bike 😋😎


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Sure...


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## Stewieftw (Jul 29, 2021)

Brad said:


> Sure...


lol in world of ebikes and shuttles to top, these things may seem impossible. 🍟🍔🛴


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Slope angle difficulty has a lot to do with control, and control has a lot to do with traction. 30° on an even slickrock slab is a lot more manageable and less scary than 30° on a greasy, muddy slope with wet roots.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

I think you folks need to brush up your math:

The table below shows some common slopes. 1:20 sloped floors do not require handrails, but anything steeper than 1:20 is considered a ramp and requires handrails. 1:12 sloped ramps are the maximum slope allowed by ADA codes and they require handrails. Federal ADA codes indicate that the maximum cross-slope of an accessible route is 1:48, which is slightly more than 2%. However, we have seen some jurisdictions that allow a maximum cross slope of 1:50.

DEGREESGRADIENTPERCENT0.6°1 : 95.491.0%1°1 : 57.291.7%1.15°1 : 502%1.19°1 : 482.08%2.86°1 : 205%4.76°1 : 128.3%7.13°1 : 812.5%10°1 : 5.6717.6%14.04°1 : 425%15°1 : 3.7326.8%26.57°1 : 250%30°1 : 1.7357.7%45°1 : 1100%56.31°1: 0.67150%60°1 : 0.6173.2% 63.43°1 : 0.5200%78.69°1: 0.2500%89.43°1 : 0.11000%90°1 : 0 inf.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Handrails on bike trails. There have been times that I could’ve used one!


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## Stewieftw (Jul 29, 2021)

Brad said:


> I think you folks need to brush up your math:
> 
> The table below shows some common slopes. 1:20 sloped floors do not require handrails, but anything steeper than 1:20 is considered a ramp and requires handrails. 1:12 sloped ramps are the maximum slope allowed by ADA codes and they require handrails. Federal ADA codes indicate that the maximum cross-slope of an accessible route is 1:48, which is slightly more than 2%. However, we have seen some jurisdictions that allow a maximum cross slope of 1:50.
> 
> DEGREESGRADIENTPERCENT0.6°1 : 95.491.0%1°1 : 57.291.7%1.15°1 : 502%1.19°1 : 482.08%2.86°1 : 205%4.76°1 : 128.3%7.13°1 : 812.5%10°1 : 5.6717.6%14.04°1 : 425%15°1 : 3.7326.8%26.57°1 : 250%30°1 : 1.7357.7%45°1 : 1100%56.31°1: 0.67150%60°1 : 0.6173.2%63.43°1 : 0.5200%78.69°1: 0.2500%89.43°1 : 0.11000%90°1 : 0inf.


30 degrees is only a 65-70% GRADIENT which is classified as "extreme slope".


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

That's the trail on the wall behind them:


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

riding DOWN that slope just take balls. Riding UP is something else entirely


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

jasonjm said:


> assuming not easy terrain on single track, such as loose dirt and or lots of small loose rocks
> 
> was having "argument" with fellow rider, he reckons almost all single tracks hit 30 degrees slope at some sections and it isn't that hard (these are non DH trails).
> 
> ...


yes you would be 100% right


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Brad said:


> riding DOWN that slope just take balls. Riding UP is something else entirely


Do you think you could do it?


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