# ElectricBike.com takes a stance on off-road ebikes



## spinningmagnets (Jun 17, 2014)

Hi, I'm Ron. Between Eric Hicks (owner of electricbike.com) and me (Ronald Roberts/spinningmagnets), we are pretty much the entire website.

We love all electric bikes. LOVE. My friend Karl is an offroader (on electricbike-blog.com), and personally? my main passion is replacing cars with commuter ebikes, where possible.

Eric and I do NOT support powerful ebikes on off-road trails where they are prohibited. Pedal-bicycles have worked very hard to create trails for their community, and if you don't want ebikes there, no sweat...we respect that. Karl rides on private property, but we realize many riders don't have that option available to them.

If you hate electricbike.com, no explanation is needed. We get hate all the time, and we don't care. We aren't going away.

I just wanted to clarify. If you hate us or love us, we want it to be for the right reasons. If you take the time to respond to this, I apologize in advance. It may take a while for me to get back to you, because...I will be busy out riding...


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Will we see this reflected in Luna's marketing and advertising? They have been criticized here and other places for their prior insensitivity to this issue. One place to begin would be to feature actual Class 1 and 2 legal ebikes in a more prominent location as opposed to the higher powered versions. I don't recall ever seeing an article about having fun with a 750w or under ebike on any of the sites you mentioned since the release of the BBSHD, just stories about "MORE POWER" although I am sure I must have overlooked them......

And what about the 800lb gorilla sitting over in the corner: the 750w power limit? Given that watts=voltsXamps, does Luna even sell a motor or ebike that is actually 750w? I realize they are all stamped 750w, but are any of them really going out the door at under 751w? That would be 20amps for a nominal 36v battery, 15amps for a 48v system and 14amps for a 52v pack...... What percentage of motor and ebike sales are "Hot Rod" programming and what percent are programmed to be 750w compliant? Knowing the extent of the "problem" would be very useful in helping land use managers make policy that reflects the actual mix of bikes on the trails.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It's a nice gesture, although I think it would be more effective to make that satement clearly on your respective forums and websites. Luna stating that their high powered bikes are only for off road use is awfully broad. "For OHV and private land use" would be more accurate.

It doesn't help that there's a page full of articles on high powered emtbs.
https://www.electricbike.com/

Cool builds to be sure, but when the author is talking about riding this https://www.electricbike.com/kuberg-freerider/ on mtb/hiking trails, it is sending a message of your tacit approval.

I'm also in complete agreement with WH, the entire "winkwinknudgenudge" bafang et all legal motor classification is misleading.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Harryman said:


> It's a nice gesture, although I think it would be more effective to make that satement clearly on your respective forums and websites. Luna stating that their high powered bikes are only for off road use is awfully broad. "For OHV and private land use" would be more accurate.
> 
> It doesn't help that there's a page full of articles on high powered emtbs.
> https://www.electricbike.com/
> ...


That's highly disappointing. Riding an emoto on multipurpose trails. Sorry, they just lost all credibility.

Last time I checked, my SS goes right up those climbs in the Santa Monica Mtns as well.

It gonna end up bein like the muscle cars of the late '60's where they purposely underrated the HP to defraud the insurance companies.


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## Cody01 (Jul 23, 2014)

I wouldn't get too excited. They specify "powerful ebikes". Look when I was a teen I helped develop and maintain trail systems for offroad motorcycles. It was some off the better years of my life. Great network of people doing great things for a cause they supported. We built trails, rode dirt bikes, camped, and loved life. I left for the military and years later moved back to Montana to find many of the places we used to ride had been closed to bikes because hikers and horsebackers complained about bikes. The bikers maintained the trails, once they were kicked off the trails eventually succumbed to water damage and horses caused problems. No maintenance got done and eventually the deadfall made the trails totally impassible and as if they were never there to begin with. I was devastated because I wanted to get back into riding but what was the point. My stance since that point is I am going to do what I want on public lands as long as I'm not damaging them or bothering others. I am respectful to others and the lands but I also know how to identify worthless people and worthless laws, and I'm not going to let either stand in my way again.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Bull. I was there (riding motos in the 80s and 90s) and all over the west, those legacy trails are being enjoyed by generations of hikers, equestrians and (sometimes) mountain bikers.

Here's the thing - motos (and sometimes bikes) can only work in certain situations. Once you've got enough users, they don't generally fit in due to speed differentials, let alone noise/smell (which could have been resolved long ago if the AMA weren't a bunch of idiots). I doubt I need to explain the population growth in the west in the last 30 years, but if you really don't know, go google up some population numbers for UT or MT or wherever from 1980 to today. 

The west is getting more crowded. And more people want to get outside and recreate. That means fast (and loud/obnoxious) things are going to be getting the boot. C'est la vie.

-W


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## Cody01 (Jul 23, 2014)

Not sure what you mean by "Bull". The trails I helped build in the 90's I see very few people on these days. I still go to some of them and hike a little with my wife and dogs but the dead fall and over all condition of the trails looks like they have been abandoned for years and years. I also very very rarely encounter anyone else on them now as well. I'm sure other areas are a different story but the Highwood mountains and Littlebelts have had people shift away from dirt bikes and there are more side x sides running up and down gravel roads all day. We've got people by the groves paying $20-25K for these machines and all they do is spin donuts in and around campgrounds and on gravel roads now. Also a mistake on my part was thinking that getting into mountain biking would allow me to ride many areas that motos were now banned from. I was dead wrong about that. Once I did my research on the areas within 75 miles of Great Falls the only mountain biking was on the River's Edge trail system that the bicycle club worked very hard to build. Anything in the Forest Service was hiking and horses or big roads open to everything anyway. I grew up riding tight twisty singletrack on a dirt bike and would love to again on mountain bikes or ebikes. I would even get into motos again but I realize I would have to travel farther than I would like to for that. The River's Edge trail riding is great but I hate all the Rattlesnakes and I really wish there were trees. It gets to be a little too much sun in a 3 hour ride out there without any shade in the warmer months.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Cody01 said:


> I wouldn't get too excited. They specify "powerful ebikes". Look when I was a teen I helped develop and maintain trail systems for offroad motorcycles. It was some off the better years of my life. Great network of people doing great things for a cause they supported. We built trails, rode dirt bikes, camped, and loved life. I left for the military and years later moved back to Montana to find many of the places we used to ride had been closed to bikes because hikers and horsebackers complained about bikes. The bikers maintained the trails, once they were kicked off the trails eventually succumbed to water damage and horses caused problems. No maintenance got done and eventually the deadfall made the trails totally impassible and as if they were never there to begin with. I was devastated because I wanted to get back into riding but what was the point. My stance since that point is I am going to do what I want on public lands as long as I'm not damaging them or bothering others. I am respectful to others and the lands but I also know how to identify worthless people and worthless laws, and I'm not going to let either stand in my way again.


Re-Read the review that Harryman posted above:

https://www.electricbike.com/kuberg-freerider/

The author admits to taking onto Hiking/biking/Horse trails in the Santa Monica Mountains out here in So. Cal.

Just so you know, this is what I am talking about: https://www.nps.gov/samo/planyourvisit/things2do.htm

We are not talking about motos/e-motos on moto trails. I am talking about e-motos/throttle controlled bikes on trails they are not allowed on. Especially up there, those trails get a lot of hiker/bike traffic.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Not trying to cause a fight, but what's the big deal about a throttle? As long as the ebike meets speed and power limits what is the practical objection? Or is it some sort of moral/ethical offense?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

For some people it is a moral offense, I think a lot of it comes from the industry selling torque sensing PAS as a concept that forces a rider to still pedal which makes them appear more bikelike in both operation and visually. They push that hard as a reason why they are still bikes and others buy in. Which as you know with other forms of PAS isn't the exactly case, since you can set the level of assist and ghost pedal if you want. 

The US regs added Class 2 (with throttles) since they are legal in the UK and people also wanted to import and sell those bikes. 

I personally don't care how the motor is turned on, I don't see that PAS is better somehow and throttles are evil. If you've got a motor and it's providing propulsion, that's what makes it different from a normal bike, not the switch that activates it. I'd prefer to have both available if had an ebike.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I find having a throttle makes remounting on a hill a lot easier and perhaps even safer.....But that's about the only time I ever use it, I often unplug it if I can remember to do so before entering the trail. Ghost pedaling with PAS seems to do the trick the rest of the time.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't get the throttle thing either. If you're on a 750w bike and you're spinning 75w, your "pedaling" isn't very relevant to how fast the bike is going. Why not take the pedals off at that point? 

-W


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Walt said:


> I don't get the throttle thing either. If you're on a 750w bike and you're spinning 75w, your "pedaling" isn't very relevant to how fast the bike is going. Why not take the pedals off at that point?
> 
> -W


 Because I like cruise control..... My recumbent street ebike has a cruise function where you set throttle and touch a button to make a "throttle lock" like on my old sport touring Laverda motorcycle which was a mechanical device. I would be happy with such a device off road, but also am happy with 9 steps of PAS activated by the pedals.

And, of course, because without pedals it's not a legal Class 1,2 or 3 bicycle.......


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

To clarify - what I mean was that I don't see why it matters if it has a throttle or not (or pedals or not). Total power involved is always going to be the limiting factor for speed/impact. How you get that power doesn't really matter.

So in my book, throttles are fine.

-Walt


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Walt said:


> To clarify - what I mean was that I don't see why it matters if it has a throttle or not (or pedals or not). Total power involved is always going to be the limiting factor for speed/impact. How you get that power doesn't really matter.
> 
> So in my book, throttles are fine.
> 
> -Walt


But when you remove the pedals and install foot pegs....you cannot even argue that it is still a bicycle.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

IMO when you produce only a small fraction of the power driving the wheels yourself, then you're not really in bicycle territory regardless. The 250W limited setups are plausibly "bikes" since most fit people can do 250W themselves for a while. Beyond that... the human is mostly along for the ride, so I'd categorize it as a motorcycle.

-Walt


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

It's a good thing that the laws in California take a different view!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

With pedals you can turn the bike off and still go forward.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gutch said:


> With pedals you can turn the bike off and still go forward.


Still a motorcycle with pedals.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Funny, I now own 4 Turbos (for the naive, these are the road bikes) my whole family rides them in the mtns. I don't have to register or tag one of them- still a motorcycle? My niner is a kx80 with no motor!


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Indeed, by that logic putting some pedals on my 250 E/XC (or F150, or cargo jet) would make it a bike.

-W


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm not a fan of throttles on bikes, although to each his /her own. I'm calling them e bikes, not motorcycles. Isn't that proper or am I missing something?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> I'm not a fan of throttles on bikes, although to each his /her own. I'm calling them e bikes, not motorcycles. Isn't that proper or am I missing something?


motor + cycle =


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Are we really back to this again? Dead horse bro.


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## kneecap (Dec 20, 2003)

Cody01 said:


> I wouldn't get too excited. They specify "powerful ebikes". Look when I was a teen I helped develop and maintain trail systems for offroad motorcycles. It was some off the better years of my life. Great network of people doing great things for a cause they supported. We built trails, rode dirt bikes, camped, and loved life. I left for the military and years later moved back to Montana to find many of the places we used to ride had been closed to bikes because hikers and horsebackers complained about bikes. The bikers maintained the trails, once they were kicked off the trails eventually succumbed to water damage and horses caused problems. No maintenance got done and eventually the deadfall made the trails totally impassible and as if they were never there to begin with. I was devastated because I wanted to get back into riding but what was the point. My stance since that point is I am going to do what I want on public lands as long as I'm not damaging them or bothering others. I am respectful to others and the lands but I also know how to identify worthless people and worthless laws, and I'm not going to let either stand in my way again.


Cody, I feel your pain. I live in so. cal., & many our favorite single track trails that were built by moto clubs & green sticker (state taxed moto funds) above the town of Kernville are gone forever due to past democratic presidents "national monuments". no trail maintenance or any mechanical transportation allowed whatsoever. What a shame..


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Are we really back to this again? Dead horse bro.


I'm not your bro and the very same laws you tout are changing an it isn't in your favor.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> I'm not your bro and the very same laws you tout are changing an it isn't in your favor.


Poor thing cant tell a hoverboard from a Tesla don't be mad Bro


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> I'm not your bro and the very same laws you tout are changing an it isn't in your favor.


No your not my bro thank god. Oh and btw the laws in NC are ebike friendly, so changing is in my favor! Haha, Gonna get my ebike on and not a damn thing you can do about it.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

spinningmagnets said:


> Hi, I'm Ron. Between Eric Hicks (owner of electricbike.com) and me (Ronald Roberts/spinningmagnets), we are pretty much the entire website.
> 
> We love all electric bikes. LOVE. My friend Karl is an offroader (on electricbike-blog.com), and personally? my main passion is replacing cars with commuter ebikes, where possible.
> 
> ...


 I've read this several times and I still cannot identify the "stance" that these guys are taking. It seems like they are saying that they know that they sell lots of ebikes that they know are only legal on private property, they know many of their customers don't have any private property and that they don't really care since they "aren't going away". Oh and if you object, you are a "hater".....

Is this essentially a big FU and if it is, why pick a fight? What possible motivation is there to waving a red flag with middle fingers extended?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> Not trying to cause a fight, but what's the big deal about a throttle? As long as the ebike meets speed and power limits what is the practical objection? Or is it some sort of moral/ethical offense?


This sheds a little more light on the decision to create a Class 1 & Class 2. Surpise, it was all about sales.

Governor Brown Signs California Electric Bike Bill Into Law - OverVolted - Electric Bike News Blog


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Funny, my interpretation is that it was about gaining access by limiting the use of throttles by making them a distinct class of ebike (type 2). Pedego wanted no restrictions on throttle use and Acell did: thus Class 1 and Class 2 ebike. Yes, everything in a capitalist world is eventually about increasing sales, but this seems to be about increased access which eventually will increase sales by giving a legal place to ride. It also seems as if the desire of MTB groups for lower power and less trail damage was given priority as well. Otherwise they would have permitted Class 3's with throttles on bike trails which they did not do.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Yeah, I agree, Pizzi was concerned that throttles would kill efforts for expanding emtb access and future sales. Interesting since BPSA and PFB both state that the CA/UT/TN legislation has no bearing on offroad singletrack access, it's all about bike paths and transportation. Pizzi did hint that he wanted to come back later with an emtb specific class which is moot since the regs are so vague, everyone assumes you can just ride Class 1 eikes anywhere.

"The end goal of the BPSA's legislation (see sidebar) is to have the lowest category of e-bikes classified as bicycles. I ask him: Do you mean then that these would be regulated exactly the same as bikes, allowed on the same trails? He hedges a bit. "I think we'll create another category," he said. "Right now, there's a bold black line between motorized and non-motorized categories, and maybe we need a new category, closer to non-motorized. Call it hybrid."

The Electric Slide - Elevation Outdoors Magazine

I don't think there was any concern with what the mtb community or anyone else thought tbh, they just adopted the Spedelec class from the EU, which has the same access restrictions and amended the power limits.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

spinningmagnets said:


> Hi, I'm Ron. Between Eric Hicks (owner of electricbike.com) and me (Ronald Roberts/spinningmagnets), we are pretty much the entire website.
> 
> We love all electric bikes. LOVE. My friend Karl is an offroader (on electricbike-blog.com), and personally? my main passion is replacing cars with commuter ebikes, where possible.
> 
> ...


"Lance Armstrong is still my hero&#8230;And I personally believe he should be given his 7 Tour de France victories back. If you can build an E-bike back in 1998 so good as to fool the entire world on national TV, and crush the souls of chemical doping Lycra riders&#8230;.We at Electricbike.com salute you." Published on electricbike.com, January 31, 2017, https://www.electricbike.com/doped-bikes-and-how-e-bikes-have-turned-bicycle-racers-on-their-heads/.

Wow...just...wow. And here we are trying to argue trail access and ethics with people that make statements like this.

"I just wanted to clarify. If you hate us or love us, we want it to be for the right reasons." ------ I've think I've found the right reason.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Attended the Long Beach e-bike Expo last Friday and met with a gentleman who was instrumental in getting the CA laws approved. He said in no uncertain terms that the proposers had no intention of promulgating anything for off road use. However, I think (not going to read it again) there was a provision to permit Class 1 e-MTB access by Rangers in a specific park. In Orange County CA this seems to be for physically challenged only.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gutch said:


> No your not my bro thank god. Oh and btw the laws in NC are ebike friendly, so changing is in my favor! Haha, Gonna get my ebike on and not a damn thing you can do about it.


Which laws are those?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Which laws are those?


I really thought you were aware of your state laws regarding Ebikes. Don't worry, I don't own one now to shred 80,000 plus acres of land. I really think I would be more concerned with logging practices then I would a few pedal assist bicycles, but seems everybody loves a good debate.
CHECK OUT PFB WEBSITE UNDER NC.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

fos'l said:


> Attended the Long Beach e-bike Expo last Friday and met with a gentleman who was instrumental in getting the CA laws approved. He said in no uncertain terms that the proposers had no intention of promulgating anything for off road use. However, I think (not going to read it again) there was a provision to permit Class 1 e-MTB access by Rangers in a specific park. In Orange County CA this seems to be for physically challenged only.


 Topanga State Park permits Class 1's and has done so since BEFORE the new laws......


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

HERE YOU GO MTBR24. Seems they're gonna let it roll and see how it goes. DuPont and Pisgah are very vast. Due you think they will be a problem?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Gutch said:


> View attachment 1124390
> 
> 
> HERE YOU GO MTBR24. Seems they're gonna let it roll and see how it goes. DuPont and Pisgah are very vast. Due you think they will be a problem?


Wow.

Pisgah isn't a state park. It's a National Forest. And e-bikes aren't allowed on non-motorized trails in it.

North Carolina (state) regs have no bearing on what you can and cannot do on USFS (federal) land.

Do you understand that state land and federal land are not the same thing?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Yes I do, I also understand that as soon as ebikers read the above paragraph they will be riding everywhere in NC and not knowing differently. Ebikes would be a drop in the bucket in these areas. It would be too vast to take a heavy battery bike out there for the day. It wouldn't last.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fos'l said:


> Attended the Long Beach e-bike Expo last Friday and met with a gentleman who was instrumental in getting the CA laws approved. He said in no uncertain terms that the proposers had no intention of promulgating anything for off road use. However, I think (not going to read it again) there was a provision to permit Class 1 e-MTB access by Rangers in a specific park. In Orange County CA this seems to be for physically challenged only.


Any local municipality or park system can allow anything on their trails that they'd like. Which is true anywhere in the US.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gutch said:


> I really thought you were aware of your state laws regarding Ebikes. Don't worry, I don't own one now to shred 80,000 plus acres of land. I really think I would be more concerned with logging practices then I would a few pedal assist bicycles, but seems everybody loves a good debate.
> CHECK OUT PFB WEBSITE UNDER NC.


Why would I keep up with all of the e-bike laws? I figured you would be able to specify them. I rarely ride in state parks in NC, so have at it, I guess. And yes, I am concerned about the logging practices.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gutch said:


> Yes I do, I also understand that as soon as ebikers read the above paragraph they will be riding everywhere in NC and not knowing differently. Ebikes would be a drop in the bucket in these areas. It would be too vast to take a heavy battery bike out there for the day. It wouldn't last.


There are plenty of heavily used trails in Pisgah, particularily the ones close to trailheads. The same ones e-bikes would apparently tend to populate. It absolutely would be an issue if people misinterpret your post.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm not PFB. I don't even own an emtb! I did own a Levo. I will purchase another down the road. I was a logger for over 10 years and I gotta tell ya, a Pedelec bike that cannot even roost is no threat to anybody. Land damage is straight ********. Now, tons of people riding a 3 mile loop is not good and believe a "aggressive" rider on an ebike should not be there. This is where the issues could arise. A very vast piece of land isn't going to harm anything.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> Topanga State Park permits Class 1's and has done so since BEFORE the new laws......


Hope you learn to read someday; I said Orange County.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

fos'l said:


> Hope you learn to read someday; I said Orange County.


 Hope you learn not to be a jerk someday too...... Or at a bare minimum learn to communicate in a clear and concise manner.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> Hope you learn not to be a jerk someday too...... Or at a bare minimum learn to communicate in a clear and concise manner.


You're the individual who answered pejoratively to a simple statement that I made. In case you weren't aware, Topanga State Park isn't in Orange County whatever that was supposed to imply.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

fos'l said:


> . However, I think (not going to read it again) there was a provision to permit Class 1 e-MTB access by Rangers in a specific park. In Orange County CA this seems to be for physically challenged only.


 You do understand the correct use of the "period"? It ends a thought and begins another, if you had used what we call a "comma" it would have indicated that the phrase " In Orange County CA" was referring to the previous phrase about a specific park and would indicate that the specific park was in Orange County. The way that you wrote this does not indicate where the specific park might be located. You then veer off and talk about Orange County letting the handicapped have access all over the county with no mention of any specific park. Unless there is only one park in all of Orange County, this is neither clear nor concise.

Were you by any chance home schooled?


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

Ron Ebikes rock


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Were you by any chance home schooled?
^ This is just wrong. My kids are homeschooled and get one on one all day. Nonetheless, you guys are arguing over nothing.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> You do understand the correct use of the "period"? It ends a thought and begins another, if you had used what we call a "comma" it would have indicated that the phrase " In Orange County CA" was referring to the previous phrase about a specific park and would indicate that the specific park was in Orange County. The way that you wrote this does not indicate where the specific park might be located. You then veer off and talk about Orange County letting the handicapped have access all over the county with no mention of any specific park. Unless there is only one park in all of Orange County, this is neither clear nor concise.
> 
> Were you by any chance home schooled?


Did you by any chance quit school after the Second Grade? Like I said, learn to read. There was no reason for you to reference my post for your inanity except you like to argue and make yourself look dumber (pretty difficult, but you seem to accomplish it ). Since you're unable to comprehend simple English and love to argue with individuals who are smarter than you, I decided to just use the ignore function to eliminate any other inaccuracies that you spew.


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