# Designshine!!!



## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

I finally got a hold of a designshine light. After waiting over a year it finally arrived this afternoon. Let me tell you this is top notch quailty!! Stephen created one bad ass light. I will compare it to my dinotte daytime red and hope to follow up with some videos.


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## BlackMamba2012 (Nov 24, 2011)

I have had mine for at least 3 yrs now and it still works great and is still bright as heck.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

BlackMamba2012 said:


> I have had mine for at least 3 yrs now and it still works great and is still bright as heck.


That's great to hear. I just turned it on in the house and damn it's bright.


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## simplec6 (Oct 29, 2011)

Very interested in a direct comparison between the Dinotte Daytime Red and this Designshine. It is very hard to find anywhere on the internet that has direct head to head reviews and proper pictures. It would also be great the hear the current draw in each mode on the Designshine.

One more question for OP: What made you want to buy the Designshine after already having the Daytime red?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

simplec6 said:


> Very interested in a direct comparison between the Dinotte Daytime Red and this Designshine. It is very hard to find anywhere on the internet that has direct head to head reviews and proper pictures. It would also be great the hear the current draw in each mode on the Designshine.
> 
> *One more question for OP: What made you want to buy the Designshine after already having the Daytime red?*


A valid question. Could be he ordered the DS and then was unwilling to wait till it came and bought the DiNotte.

DiNotte seems to have cornered a good segment of the market when it comes to super bright rear lamps but truthfully the basic 80 lumen self-contained lamps are so good I don't see why anyone would drop the extra coin on a "mega red" lamp unless you ride along a 4-lane highway on your daily commute. As for me; yeah, I have a nice bright rear lamp but I find myself using it less and less. The 80 lm stuff works for me. One on the seat post and one on the helmet and I'm good.

While I'd love to have a DiNotte quad red lamp, I'd have a hard time justifying the expenditure ( unless my current setup poops out ). Then again there's the, "Weight weenie " defense that works well at justifying a new light. :cornut:


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

Quick dirty vids. Why I own both? No real reason but to have the latest and greatest.


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## simplec6 (Oct 29, 2011)

Awesome. DS is on the left of the youtube video, correct?


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

simplec6 said:


> Awesome. DS is on the left of the youtube video, correct?


Yes.

Hope to get some night vids!!

Don't know why this vid came out so "jumpy".


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## pigmode (Nov 15, 2009)

Thanks for the vids gd03. As superior as the DS is in brightness, your videos IMO also show the advantages of Dinotte's pulse mode. I'm a bit reluctant to give that feature up.

Any comments on DS side visibility?


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

pigmode said:


> Thanks for the vids gd03. As superior as the DS is in brightness, your videos IMO also show the advantages of Dinotte's pulse mode. I'm a bit reluctant to give that feature up.
> 
> Any comments on DS side visibility?


No comments yet. The Dinotte Day is no slouch by any means. The DS is extremely bright in person.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Damn, that DS is looking really good.

Can it be dimmed to about the level of Dinotte for night time use ?

The Dinotte itself can be dimmed in solid mode but not in pulse mode, however the solid mode is more or less useless IMO as the flash stands out much more. Can the DS be dimmed in pulse mode ?

And how much is the complete system ? Dinotte prices the complete system - you get the light head, the battery, the mounts and the charger all together but with DS i remember last time i got confused as to what i actually need to order to make a complete system. Assuming mounting to stem how much is the entire system with shipping, tax etc ?

I would love to punish Dinotte ( if i can afford to do so ) for steering me towards 400R over Daytime Red by getting a DesignShine.

as for videos what i find is an effective way to judge relative brightness of tail light on video is when the pavement is wet to have the light next to car tail lights and see which one produces a brighter patch on the pavement - the bike or the car. because the lights themselves blow out the exposure on the camera so you can't tell directly and also because bike light is small and car tail lights are wide makes it also hard to compare directly - but the wet pavement diffuses both to about the same size patch and then you can have a direct apples to apples comparison - which patch of light reflecting from pavement is brighter ?

of course, as a daytime light perhaps night-time comparisons are not very relevant but for night time use i think a comparison to car tail lights is most useful.

also keep in mind the tail lights on cars are at a fraction of their brightenss when parked and at full brightness only when the brakes are engaged. ideally, as i said elsewhere, i would like the bike tail light to match the brightness of car tail lights equipped with a good LED system like the Audi in pic below.









these Audi tail lights are of course not yellow - they're the same color as all red LEDs - they're just blowing out the camera exposure ... in daytime. as far as i'm concerned, for night time use, any bike tail light that can hold its own against this audi is bright enough. if it can't - it needs to be brighter.

in the above picture the brakes are engaged. i think the bike tail light should be able to compete with car tail lights with the brakes ON.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Gharddog03 said:


> Yes.
> 
> Hope to get some night vids!!
> 
> Don't know why this vid came out so "jumpy".


How about some comparison beamshots? Maybe shoot them at the roof and take a pic or 2 of that at full power?


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

Dinotte daytime is sold.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

Shark attack's pics from the previous build.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)




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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

nice pics


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Gharddog03 said:


>


looks like you definitely need to dim it at night  at least on small roads. perhaps on the side of a busy highway it could be run full blast even at night. hard to judge accurately without actual traffic in the picture.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Gharddog03 said:


> Shark attack's pics from the previous build.


very nice spread pattern. wide, even with good punch down the center.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

Awesome user programming. By Shark Attack.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

Get them while you can. They are selling like hot cakes with limited quantity. Let me assure you they are too notch quality with user programming with hundreds of flash patterns.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

How much did this light cost?? I can't seem to find any prices at all on any of their sites.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

229$


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Here's the store link. Only 34 left
DS-500 Taillight w/Mount


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## gipsyman (Nov 18, 2014)

simplec6 said:


> Very interested in a direct comparison between the Dinotte Daytime Red and this Designshine. It is very hard to find anywhere on the internet that has direct head to head reviews and proper pictures. It would also be great the hear the current draw in each mode on the Designshine.
> 
> One more question for OP: What made you want to buy the Designshine after already having the Daytime red?


I just received one of the build #4 DesignShine DS-500 lights. There are 5 power levels from a low of 111 to a high of 800 lumens. You also have 6 different fully programmable flash patterns. I just tested the build version #4 for lux at one meter and power consumption. The lumens are manufacturer ratings. The readings are as follows:

LEVEL___LUX__LUMENS__WATTS

1 ______288____111_____.52
2 ______1450___239_____2.2
3 ______2302___378_____3.6
4 ______3360___521_____5.4
5 ______6140___798____11.4

All five of the power levels are available in steady or flash mode.

My old Magicshine MJ-818 tail light had a lux reading at one meter of 480 on high steady. But the wattage used by the MJ-818 was 2.88 watts, way more inefficient than the Designshine. Also the MJ-818 started to drop off in lux reading down to 390 after being turned on for only 2 minutes in 65 degree F ambient temperature. That shows how poor the heatsinking is on my Magicshine.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

gipsyman said:


> I just received one of the build #4 DesignShine DS-500 lights. There are 5 power levels from a low of 111 to a high of 800 lumens. You also have 6 different fully programmable flash patterns. I just tested the build version #4 for lux at one meter and power consumption. The lumens are manufacturer ratings. The readings are as follows:
> 
> LEVEL___LUX__LUMENS__WATTS
> 
> ...


is there any kind of warranty ?

i ask because i won't use the light until March, but by March it may be sold out. so if i buy it now and there is an issue i may not learn about it until March.

?


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

1 year


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

OK i ordered it.

based on my order number and other information i estimated a rate of one light sold every 5 hours with 30 lights left. assuming it keeps selling at this rate it will sell out in a week.

of course they will probably have a new batch eventually, but i would advise anybody looking to get a light from the current batch keep a close eye on the number of lights remaining in stock on the store page:

DS-500 Taillight w/Mount

The current plan is to put DS-500 on seatpost, move Daytime Red to the Helmet ( where i currently have a 400R ) and give 400R to my mother ( unless somebody wants to buy it here in Brooklyn ).


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

androgen said:


> Damn, that DS is looking really good.
> 
> And how much is the complete system ? Dinotte prices the complete system - you get the light head, the battery, the mounts and the charger all together but with DS i remember last time i got confused as to what i actually need to order to make a complete system. Assuming mounting to stem how much is the entire system with shipping, tax etc ?
> 
> I would love to punish Dinotte ( if i can afford to do so ) for steering me towards 400R over Daytime Red by getting a DesignShine.


$229 Shipped/Insured
This includes one mount (size of your choosing). It's nice to put a mount on any bike that will be using the light so you can quick-release between them.

The new build #4 lights are all configured for use with any standard 7.4V pack, so I don't pair it up with any particular battery. They're becoming a common consumable at this point, so it just made sense to leverage off of existing packs. If you already have a pack from most any other system, you can use it (adapters available).

Your points about pics and video are good... it's VERY hard to capture a realistic image of high-intensity red. As others have pointed out, both lights are very capable, but the DS has some advantages for sure... not the least of which is that it can be turned down to 0.5 watt levels for use at night. It's also a good bit more efficient, not only in power-to-light conversion, but also in the focusing of the beam, specific to taillight use.

Cheers


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

androgen said:


> OK i ordered it.
> 
> based on my order number and other information i estimated a rate of one light sold every 5 hours with 30 lights left. assuming it keeps selling at this rate it will sell out in a week.
> 
> ...


Thanks much!
And yes, more are on the way (actually at the anodizing shop today).
Hope you enjoy it... I still consider each light purchased to really be a 30-day demo. I want you to be thoroughly satisfied with it before you decide to keep it.

Cheers


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

gipsyman said:


> I just received one of the build #4 DesignShine DS-500 lights. There are 5 power levels from a low of 111 to a high of 800 lumens. You also have 6 different fully programmable flash patterns. I just tested the build version #4 for lux at one meter and power consumption. The lumens are manufacturer ratings. The readings are as follows:
> 
> LEVEL___LUX__LUMENS__WATTS
> 
> ...


Great info^. Thanks.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

pethelman said:


> adapters available


Edited my order to add Dinotte Adapter. Guess no 400R for my mother now, because i will need its the battery and charger for myself.

Whoever wants to buy my 400R at this point will only get the light head. Assuming i can find the box you will get everything that came with the light minus battery and charger. $80 ( Brooklyn ).


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## pigmode (Nov 15, 2009)

pigmode said:


> Thanks for the vids gd03. As superior as the DS is in brightness, your videos IMO also show the advantages of Dinotte's pulse mode. I'm a bit reluctant to give that feature up.
> 
> Any comments on DS side visibility?


My bad. Reading the description at the DesignShine website, the DS 500 Taillight does in fact have a pulse mode!


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

Pigmode. It has hundreds of user programming combinations. It's a killer design by Stepehen. I programmed mine in 10 mins.


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## pigmode (Nov 15, 2009)

Gharddog03 said:


> Pigmode. It has hundreds of user programming combinations. It's a killer design by Stepehen. I programmed mine in 10 mins.


Thanks, I plan to order mine is 2-3 weeks.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

Sweet ^


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## Sherbona (Mar 23, 2011)

I've just ordered - I've wanted one for a long time now. Now to wait impatiently for 'arrival day'! 

Ghardog03 , what changes did you program for yours? I took a look at the maxflex manual last night but need to go through some more, still aren't sure if/how to change the flash modes , e.g., change flash 3 from Level 3 on/off to say Level 3/1 But the defaults listed in the DS manual look good too, I think I'll stick with those for awhile while learning the light.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

I pretty much programmed my light to simiar flash patterns as sharkatttacks video. It does take a little playing around with the light to get used to the programming menu. The stock patterns are great.


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## Sherbona (Mar 23, 2011)

ahh, I don't know how I missed your earlier post with that link. Cool. After checking that out I think I do want to try a few of those modes. I still couldn't see how to do it from that maxflex manual, so did a little more searching. Turns out I was looking at an older manual, maxflexuni_v4.00.pdf, which stops at '13 clicks for the menu selection description. But maxflexuni4_v1.00.pdf includes the 14click menu selection. Thanks Gharddoc03!


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

Ha ha. I did the same thing. Wondering why the menu ended at 13.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Sherbona said:


> I've just ordered - I've wanted one for a long time now. Now to wait impatiently for 'arrival day'!
> 
> Ghardog03 , what changes did you program for yours? I took a look at the maxflex manual last night but need to go through some more, still aren't sure if/how to change the flash modes , e.g., change flash 3 from Level 3 on/off to say Level 3/1 But the defaults listed in the DS manual look good too, I think I'll stick with those for awhile while learning the light.


Thanks! It's headed your way!
I've also linked up the relevant build #4 Programmers Guide on the store site as well. Note that there are a couple of subtle changes from build #3, so user's of the previous build will need to grab the previous version (I'll try to link it up as well).

I'm pasting the default build #4 flash mode timing values here just so you can have some numbers to work with. Note that these values are burned into the EEPROM, so if you ever do a "factory reset" (menu #10), you'll get these patterns back. Also note that a few of these are kind of special since you won't be able to achieve delays greater than 500ms through the user interface (power button clicking). The duty cycle numbers are just for helping me calculate run times. The video link below is just a quick tutorial on how to get into programming mode and how to enable/disable the Superlock (safety turn-on) feature.

Enjoy!


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## Sherbona (Mar 23, 2011)

^^^ Great info, thank you so much for this pethelman. Getting such details and help from the product's designer/creator is a real treat. 

BTW, I'm planning on mounting my DS-500 horizontally at the back of my rack, if you ever do more of those Tubus Rack Mount Adapters I'll buy at least 2 or 3


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Sherbona said:


> ^^^ Great info, thank you so much for this pethelman. Getting such details and help from the product's designer/creator is a real treat.
> 
> BTW, I'm planning on mounting my DS-500 horizontally at the back of my rack, if you ever do more of those Tubus Rack Mount Adapters I'll buy at least 2 or 3


Yeah, those were pretty cool little pieces. I might have to consider building a few more in the next batch of housings, although, I'm finding that with creative use of some spacer material, most rack-mount applications can adapt to something like this:










Just make sure that you read through the user's manual, but in general, removing the lens cover and swapping the lenses so that you can get the elliptical lens properly oriented for horizontal use is a very simple proposition. Just take your time and do it in a nice clean location.

Glad to help in any way that I can.
Cheers!


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Is there any suitable battery box that takes 2 cells for this light?


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

car bone said:


> Is there any suitable battery box that takes 2 cells for this light?


I can't vouch for the quality, but something like THIS could be used with a couple of 18650s. I provide a spare battery pigtail with the lights exactly for this purpose. You can use it to attach to any 7.4V li-ion source as a viable supply for the light. You would just have to decide whether to use individually protected or un-protected cells. The light itself will protect the batteries against over-discharge, so in theory, you can use un-protected cells, but always with caution.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

I would just use this: Batteries and chargers ? DiNotte Lighting USA Online Store and a Dinotte adapter sold by DesignShine.

Dinotte has a great plug design, the battery is compact and has a secure mount, the charger is fast and the costs are reasonable.

Lupine batteries have huge capacities but for a blinky i think that's irrelevant. Lupine plug is not very good and their batteries and chargers are very expensive.

I think compared to a box with 18650 cells the Dinotte battery is worth the money because it solid and only costs a little more.

On the other hand if your headlight is Lupine maybe it makes sense to stick to one standard throughout the system.

I think Stephen made a very wise choice to offer adapters specifically for Dinotte and Lupine. Dinotte for people like me who are upgrading from it and Lupine for people who want to stick to the same plug type throughout their setup and want compatibility with the widest range of batteries and chargers.

sorry, i know this wasn't the question, but wanted to share my thoughts.

perhaps Stephen can produce some kind of guide for powering his lights, and put the link in the product description / store page. i remember when i was a noob i was intimidated by the prospect of buying a headlight without any matching battery or charger.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Too late for me, but in the future i think it would be nice if the light was offered with a choice of different plugs, rather than offering adapters. Right now my battery and tail light ( both Dinotte ) are within inches from each other and the cable length is just about right. When i add the adapter the cable will become too long - not the end of the world - but it would have been nicer to just have the light with a Dinotte plug to begin with.

I realize it probably costs you $ to source proprietary plugs like that but nobody says these should be no-cost options. Perhaps they could be $20 options over standard plug.

I think it would be a nice touch.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

Hunk Lee batteries work great with the DS. Here's a nice two cell.

Panasonic NCR18650B 7 4V 3400mAh Protected Li ion Battery for Bike Light 2S1PM | eBay


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

I can vouch for Mr. Lee as well. Have worked with him many times in the past, and have always been satisfied with his service and product. Prices are hard to beat too.

I have a fairly comprehensive battery thread over on my Forum-based site. It's probably not as complete as it needs to be, but it's a good starting place: "All things batteries."

In general, if you can connect it, any 7.4V li-ion pack will work. Since I'm using the standard Magicshine connector, there are a lot of off-the-shelf options out there. I do provide a stand-alone wired connector with the light for the option of wiring up to any generic pack.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

androgen said:


> Too late for me, but in the future i think it would be nice if the light was offered with a choice of different plugs, rather than offering adapters. Right now my battery and tail light ( both Dinotte ) are within inches from each other and the cable length is just about right. When i add the adapter the cable will become too long - not the end of the world - but it would have been nicer to just have the light with a Dinotte plug to begin with.
> 
> I realize it probably costs you $ to source proprietary plugs like that but nobody says these should be no-cost options. Perhaps they could be $20 options over standard plug.
> 
> I think it would be a nice touch.


Definitely not too late for you. For the sake of production capability, I generally build all the lights with around 16-17 inches of wire length, and then the adapters provide the option of translating to the different types of packs. However, one of the advantages of being small is that I can still do custom builds, so after you've run the light for a while with the adapter, if you decide you'd like to have one with a hardwired Dinotte connector to a certain length, just let me know and it'll be no problem to swap out with your "standard" build.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

pethelman said:


> Definitely not too late for you. For the sake of production capability, I generally build all the lights with around 16-17 inches of wire length, and then the adapters provide the option of translating to the different types of packs. However, one of the advantages of being small is that I can still do custom builds, so after you've run the light for a while with the adapter, if you decide you'd like to have one with a hardwired Dinotte connector to a certain length, just let me know and it'll be no problem to swap out with your "standard" build.


That's cool. I guess it is smart to try the light first before committing to a custom build.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

aturovidal said:


> How about some comparison beamshots? Maybe shoot them at the roof and take a pic or 2 of that at full power?


I've probably posted these once before but here's a cool side-by-side shot of the DS-500 (upper half) and 400R (lower half), both on their respective max power, projected on a white fence at night. Identical exposure for each. It's hard to "interpret" night shots like this because of the "blown" exposure in the hot-spot on the DS, but it does show some relative difference. When viewing in person with your eyes, you don't see the variation in color like you see here with the camera lens due to overexposure. However, the camera does let you see the wide angle effect of the elliptical lens as well as get an idea of the relative intensity of the center beam. Also linked in the video below is a cool comparison made by a customer in New Zealand.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

aturovidal said:


> How about some comparison beamshots? Maybe shoot them at the roof and take a pic or 2 of that at full power?


there frankly have been enough of such comparisons already to know that DS500 has double the performance of nearest competitor ( Dinotte Daytime Red ) but that probably won't stop *me* from doing a comparison video or two anyway ( i'm supposed to get my DS500 today ).

performance would be my last concern if i was on the fence about getting this light, but if it is for you, i will probably be video comparing it to Dinotte Daytime Red and Nightflux Red Zone 8.

if the weather holds up i will hopefully do one road video and one indoor video against a white wall.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

you should do one where you are running all 3 of them! That would probably piss people off.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

pethelman said:


> I've probably posted these once before but here's a cool side-by-side shot of the DS-500 (upper half) and 400R (lower half), both on their respective max power, projected on a white fence at night. Identical exposure for each. It's hard to "interpret" night shots like this because of the "blown" exposure in the hot-spot on the DS, but it does show some relative difference. When viewing in person with your eyes, you don't see the variation in color like you see here with the camera lens due to overexposure. However, the camera does let you see the wide angle effect of the elliptical lens as well as get an idea of the relative intensity of the center beam. Also linked in the video below is a cool comparison made by a customer in New Zealand.
> View attachment 941511


hello I would like to buy one of these. AND I would also like to buy a 2000 lumen version. If you ever build one.

If you use a led like a beacon, on for a very short time and off for about 2 seconds is it possible to get a lot more lumens of that short flash than compared to running them continously? I would like a red light that puts out 5-10000lm for like 1/20 of a second or shorter and then rests for 2 seconds or so.
Is it possible to build something like this without using 50 leds or so?


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

car bone said:


> I would like a red light that puts out 5-10000lm for like 1/20 of a second or shorter and then rests for 2 seconds or so.
> Is it possible to build something like this without using 50 leds or so?


how about a flash mode for a *bike tail light* that makes one 100% power very short pulse, then burst of 3 flashes at 20% power, repeat. i think this would cut battery and heatsink requirements by two thirds while only losing about a third of visibility. it would also arguably be less blinding to drivers while still being visible from a mile away.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

I did an unboxing video for this light. Apologies for camera losing focus towards the end of the video. Apparently it can't focus at close distance while zoomed all the way.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Cool! Thanks for the video! Always interesting to see someone's impression right out of the box. To address a couple of the questions...
Yes, I'm adapting to the Cateye mounting system (universally available and time tested), so it's convenient to re-use their small part bags. The mystery bag in question actually contains three parts:

1. A 5/64" Allan wrench for tightening the set screw to set the angle of the light once mounted. Toss it in your saddle bag or tool kit for any adjustments you may want to make later.

2. An 18 inch long power wire (cut wire on one end, standard Magicshine-style battery power connector on the other). This is literally the other "half" of the extension cable that I use to build the light. You can save it for future use if you ever want to connect it to a bare wire-lead battery pack or some other brand of battery with an odd connector. It's strictly optional, but handy for the DIY'er.

3. Two (or more) velcro ties for strapping wires to the frame in a neat fashion as necessary.

I've started a new FAQ section on the store where I'm going to try and consolidate Q&A like this. Very helpful to hear your feedback!

Concerning heat sink area... Yes, this is a radically efficient housing, and I could certainly "get by" with less, however, there are three primary considerations:

1. This light is capable of running at a steady 10 watts with only mild air-flow, which requires significant surface area to be available for cooling.

2. Red LEDs are extremely heat sensitive and their intensity falls off very quickly with heat (much more so than white LEDs). The more heat I can move out of the LEDs, the better the performance under severe conditions.

3. I want these lights to last basically forever... well, OK, at least a very long time, and heat is the great killer of LEDs and electronics over time. It's an overly conservative design with regard to heat dissipation, but that's just the way I like it!


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

pethelman said:


> Always interesting to see someone's impression right out of the box.


i was pleasantly surprised by the look / feel of the light. the light head looks like it was made by Lupine. i did not expect that. that's very cool.

of course to *ME* that magicshine cable is very annoying, because even though i have many lights NOT ONE of them uses magicshine plug. but i understand that it's the most common plug, and thus the logical choice on your side.

the cable length though i find hard to justify. i imagine for most people it is 50% longer than they want, and for the rest - they could have the option of getting an extension cable. that's what dinotte does - they include an extension cable with their light, but the light head itself has a short cord.

i think the cable should be just long enough to have room to grab onto to pull the plug apart without putting excessive strain on the light head. the Dinotte cable is about that long.

also the Magishine plug ( which i just tried for the first time ) seems OK, but not super. it doesn't have the positive snap that Dinotte, Light & Motion and Lupine plugs have. it reminded me of Niterider plug in the way it is mushy feeling, but the NiteRider plug is much easier to operate.

i guess its a question of - what is the target buyer for this light ? if it is the DIY guy who likes to tinker with stuff then he will probably appreciate the MS plug because it will match all his other stuff. on the other hand if the buyer is somebody who has everything Lupine i think he might be put off by the very word "magicshine" but to be honest, the Lupine plug is also miserable.

I think Dinotte plug is the best, and i also think Dinotte batteries are well suited in capacity to drive the DS500. Although perhaps with a Lupine battery you could run a splitter and drive the headlight and the tail light from the same battery - a Dinotte battery isn't big enough for this.

Perhaps as more people buy these lights it will become clear what they use as far as powering the lights. Perhaps you already know this.

Still, the plug is the part of the light you interact with a lot. More so than the mount. I only mount the tail light once, but i deal with the plug on every ride ( to charge ) and again every time i put the bike in the car ( because i have to take the seat off ).

Perhaps my usage is not typical, but i never not once used the quick release that Dinotte ( and DS500 ) comes with, but i am reminded of plug quality ( or lack thereof ) every single time i use every light that i own.

I would have much rather given up the quick release and gotten a Dinotte conector hard wired for the same money. Yes, i know you said you can do this, but i'm just sharing my IMPRESSION of SUBJECTIVE QUALITY of the product.

My impression is that the light head itself feels very premium, but to *me* is cheapened significantly by the MS plug and the too-long cord.

PS: haven't tried turning it on, afraid to do this without reading the manual LOL.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Totally understand about the plug/cable... It is exactly as you say and a bit of a compromise at this point. The Dinotte cable/connector is hands-down the Cadillac of cables, but they don't come cheap. The DS light as you see it today has been the result of three years of testing, tweeking, machining, re-designing, and hunting for quality US-based partners, as much as possible. The universality of the generic "MS-style" cable makes it good option for me to use at this point, especially given the prolific nature of their batteries and other brands with the exact same overmolding, but I do wish I could spec my own.... maybe one day, but at this point in the game, however, it's just too cost prohibitive. I do everything I can to insure that the cables work well by performing an electrical load and pull strain test on each and every one before using it to build up a light.

The "standard" length is also quite a conundrum. I tried to make it just long enough that when used with a standard 8" pigtail battery in a saddle bag, you'd still have enough length to reach the seat-stays, for a tall-ish frame. I have had a lot of rack-mount, trike, recumbent, etc. users, so the longer length can actually be quite beneficial to be able to reach those slightly extended areas without needing an extension. Adding much more wire length than you need (like a full 1m extension) can have a negative impact on run-times due to the higher I*R losses in the cable. So yes, I had to kind of pick a "standard" length based on the history that I've had with customers so far. Nothing saying, however, that I might not need to change it to something shorter, so it's always good to hear how the light is being used.

Thanks much!


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

pethelman said:


> Concerning heat sink area... Yes, this is a radically efficient housing, and I could certainly "get by" with less, however, there are three primary considerations:
> 
> 1. This light is capable of running at a steady 10 watts with only mild air-flow, which requires significant surface area to be available for cooling.
> 
> ...


Since this is a seatpost light the weight of heatsink overkill is not an issue. However the Dinotte is also a seatpost light and yet i ended up actually mounting one on my helmet ( and another on the seatpost ) because it doesn't weigh much.

I understand your light has much more power than Dinotte, but i have to question the usefulness of solid ( as opposed to flashing / burst etc ) modes. I'm pretty sure i will never use a solid mode.

I think in the future version of the light you could try to reduce the weight of the light by limiting the maximum output in solid modes.

For example i also have a NightFlux Red Zone 8 which has no heatsinks AT ALL ! That's another extreme, but somehow it works, and is an extremely popular light when you consider how much it costs.

What i'm saying is that rather than maxing out heatsink efficiency you perhaps should put a greater focus on maxing out efficiency of flash patterns ( reducing duty cycle, and capping output for solid modes ).

This is not a criticism at all, for my application the weight is completely irrelevant, but perhaps if it was lighter ( and cheaper, due to less machining ) it could open it up to new applications that we can't even think of right now.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Now you're getting into some of the tortured thoughts that you have to go through when designing a product like this. The trade-offs are practically endless. Putting restrictions on the solid burn capability is definitely something I've being toying around with. Take it a step further and you could even define some rules for a variable maximum drive current depending on maximum pulse width timing, which would allow you to "over drive" the LEDs for short pulses.

Of course this all involves more design iteration and firmware coding, etc., etc. When you consider that the controller in this light is the equivalent of an "open-source" operating system where the user has the ability to define any manner of flash patterns, it's probably a good thing to have some "spare" cooling ability.

Believe it or not the machining cost is only about 22% of the entire light, so it'd be hard to trim much cost there. I'd have to go something radically cheaper, like die cast... 

Keep those ideas coming... I'll file them away for later.
Cheers


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

pethelman said:


> Keep those ideas coming... I'll file them away for later.
> Cheers


OK, i will just throw this out there ...

you could ... develop a helmet mounted version 

everybody ( including Dinotte ) was skeptical about me helmet-mounting a Dinotte but it works extremely well, and that light wasn't even designed for that application. in my estimate ( and from watching the video of myself Bike Lights Demonstration - YouTube ) out of 13 lights i simultaneously run on my bike my helmet mounted Dinotte probably accounts for 1/3 of my overall visibility when the traffic begins to block most of the lower-mounted lights.

sure, when the road is clear the seatpost light is far more effective than helmet light, but when the road is clear even a USB blinky will probably keep you alive. if you're going to get killed it will probably be in rush hour traffic ( or by a drunk ).

and in rush hour traffic having the light higher up is probably going to be more important than blasting more lumens. in fact blasting more lumens will only make drivers more aggressive towards you because it will irritate them.

you already mastered the high output, the rich programming options, and a very nice beam pattern ... however the need to mount the light at a height where it will be obstructed by cars in traffic is still a serious limitation.

check out this video here ( NOT one of my videos ):






shot in Manhattan ( where i do some of my riding ) from about the location of the tail light.

when you watch the video you can't help but feel that you would like to be a few feet higher up because you're blocked from all sides by cars. well that's precisely the problem with a low mounted tail light - it wants to be helmet mounted.

keeping the same LED setup you could shorten the housing and supply a helmet mount to turn it into something like a lupine piko, only for the back of the helmet. you would have to modify the beam as well to remove the hot spot and make it really wide.

i'll be honest, the market for this light would be limited as most people are too self-conscious to put lights on their head, however even though i have an absolutely ridiculous clown / christmas tree setup i get overwhelmingly positive reactions from other cyclists, i get positive reactions from cops and mixed reactions from drivers.

a helmet setup would also allow you to incorporate your headlight unit into the same system. for example you could have DS red on the back of helmet, DS white on the front of helmet and two single cell batteries one on each side of the helmet left and right - this would balance the weight of the helmet so you would barely even know it's there. the front light would need a lightweight housing as well and run as a white blinky only.

although having so many objects mounted to helmet could impact the ability of helmet to protect your head ( like Schumacher and his GoPro Camera ) ... perhaps a single 2 cell on top would interfere less with helmet operation ( less likely to get jammed between helmet and pavement on impact and get stuck in your skull ). on the other hand a helmet stays put better if the extra weight is kept lower. if you can manage two FLAT, malleable batteries ( as opposed to cylindrical ) on the sides of the helmet that would be ideal ( low center of gravity, and no risk of injury on impact ).

basically a high end version of L&M Vis 360

Vis 360 - Light & Motion

the feasibility of this setup, i think, would depend on your ability to switch to a low profile housing design with about 1/2 the depth and 1/4 the fins area.

this is like a pipe dream of course, i realize this would be a very drastic departure, like i said - i just wanted to throw this out there ...

dream big, ya know ?


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## pigmode (Nov 15, 2009)

^Don't think I've made it through even one of your videos--too friggen long. Need some serious editing.

Just conjecture at this point till I have one in hand, but the DesignShine would be the first light I've seen That I'd like to experiment with using a solid beam at night.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

pigmode said:


> ^Don't think I've made it through even one of your videos--too friggen long. Need some serious editing.
> 
> Just conjecture at this point till I have one in hand, but the DesignShine would be the first light I've seen That I'd like to experiment with using a solid beam at night.


i have some 2 hour videos that are heavily edited. i'm not going to edit a 5 minute video. besides, you can always fast forward.

the heatsinking for the solid beam is definitely there, and the output level is also there to be visible with that solid beam. but i think blinking is valuable just to tell the driver that you're a bicycle, as only bicycles blink - not cars or motorcycles.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

tried out the flashing modes indoors ...

PLEASE NOTE I HAVE NOT TRIED IT OUTSIDE, SO MY OBSERVATIONS AT THIS POINT ARE PROBABLY WORTHLESS.

that said ...

there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference in output between them. they all seem to range from ridiculously bright to even more ridiculously bright. 

in other words the difference from L1 to L5 is maybe like between 300R and 400R Daytime Red. i was sort of hoping i would be able to dial it down to a polite mode when necessary ... but it doesn't seem like this is possible, at least from the pre-programmed L1 to L5 modes.

i don't have a 300R on me but i think the lowest level of L1 is somewhere in the range of 300R on max.

i don't do group rides, and i don't know if anybody does group rides at night, but i'm pretty sure your mates would not be happy with you being in front of them at even the lowest setting at night.

on the upside the light has a very strong output down the center, which should give it real visibility in daytime.

and outside of that center hot spot the spill is all over the place - wider than 180 degrees.

this is very different from Dinotte. Dinotte outputs a cone with very little spill and no hot spot in the middle. the DS500 produces a more focused center beam and lots of spill everywhere.

in my case i have dedicated side lighting ( four monkeylectric lights on wheels and two red zone 8 lights on helmet ) so the side spill for me will not be a major benefit. but for the average user this is probably going to be the biggest advantage over the Dinotte. with a Dinotte you're barely visibile from the side - with DS500 you should be much more visible at 90 degrees. 

i consider the lack of side spill one of the two major design flaws with Dinotte. the other one being inability to dim the light in flashing modes. DS500 addresses both, but i wish the dimming was more pronounced. still, it's much better than Dinotte ( which has none ).

the light comes pre-programmed with 6 modes that are all fairly aggressive. i think it would have been better if it came with only 3 modes but with bigger difference between them. basically a "day" mode, a "dusk" mode and "night" mode. rather than 6 modes ranging somewhere from sunny day mode to cloudy day mode.

as for that center hot spot it seems properly sized for true ROAD riding, as in country road, fairly straight and narrow. for the type of riding i do in the city on 2 and 3 lane wide roads with cars on all sides of me ( not just behind me ) i would have preferred a more diffuse, wider beam, like Dinotte, but with useful spill ( which Dinotte doesn't have ).

the optics on DS500 are very advanced, but i think could ( should ? ) still be improved. the transition from the center hot spot to the spill could be feathered out a bit IMO. still, the DS500 probably has the best optics / beam of any tail light, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved.

of course, this is all meaningless babbling for now because i haven't tried it outside yet.

the button is comfortable to press and has a nice click. although it feels a bit fragile. both Dinotte and Niteflux require several times the effort to engage the button. in other words the button on DS500 is too easy to press accidentally, which is why you need to click it 3 times to activate the light ( to prevent it from turning on accidentally ). in this respect Dinotte and Niteflux are superior because they have a properly stiff button that doesn't require excessively complex procedures to prevent accidental activation. of course it is hard to source a button with just the right amount of effort. 

i'm sure activating the light will become natural after a few uses but at the first try it felt too complicated - the need to do two clicks and then a press and hold. i never used a light with such a complex procedure to turn it on. also i find it odd that the simpler code ( three clicks ) is used for the solid mode, and the more complex ( click, click, hold ) for the flash mode. most people use flash mode - it should be the easier one to activate in my opinion. 

the way dinotte does - two clicks to turn on, long press to turn off - is very intuitive and i don't see a reason why DS500 couldn't use the same procedure. basically, there is some room for simplification with the modes and procedures here.

another upside though is that i realized i will never need to actually deal with the magicshine connector. because i'm using dinotte battery and charger i will only need to unplug the dinotte connector. that's great !

considering the main connector on DS500 is never going to be unplugged perhaps it should be of some kind of locking variety - like with a thread. just a thought.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

androgen said:


> For example i also have a NightFlux Red Zone 8 which has no heatsinks AT ALL ! That's another extreme, but somehow it works, and is an extremely popular light when you consider how much it costs.


Carpet fiber supposedly conducts heat very good, electricity too I believe.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

androgen said:


> there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference in output between them. they all seem to range from ridiculously bright to even more ridiculously bright.


Yes, definitely try outdoors. Very hard to gauge indoors at close range.



androgen said:


> i don't have a 300R on me but i think the lowest level of L1 is somewhere in the range of 300R on max.


L1 to my eyes at night is somewhat less than a Magicshine taillight, and I would hope that it's considerably less than the 300R on max given that the DS-500 is using less than 1 watt at L1. The difference may be in the optics, however, since MUCH more of the light is focused in the area where it's actually needed.

You can actually scale back ALL of the power levels if you like. The maximum intensity of the light (L5) is determined by the MAX drive current setting (default is 700 mA). If you look at the programmers manual (page 19), you can see the sequence for setting the max drive at 350mA. It takes all of 10 seconds to make this change, and it can definitely take the edge off, but at the end of the day, this is a difficult proposition, and is one of the reasons why Dinotte's daytime light is not usable at all at night. Playing around with the drive current, however, is something you should only do if comfortable with the basic programming functionally. You could accidentally put the light in self-destruct mode if you selected drive currents of 1200mA or more.



androgen said:


> i don't do group rides, and i don't know if anybody does group rides at night, but i'm pretty sure your mates would not be happy with you being in front of them at even the lowest setting at night.


This is probably true, but I think L1 steady would at least be tolerable. Now if you're a roadie and needing to get in some night time solo training, the DS-500 answers the mail.



androgen said:


> this is very different from Dinotte. Dinotte outputs a cone with very little spill and no hot spot in the middle. the DS500 produces a more focused center beam and lots of spill everywhere.


What you're calling "spill" for the DS-500 is actually the same, if not greater intensity than the main "cone" on the Dinotte. The effect is that the DS-500 has a much wider effective beam. See post #51.



androgen said:


> the button is comfortable to press and has a nice click. although it feels a bit fragile. both Dinotte and Niteflux require several times the effort to engage the button. in other words the button on DS500 is too easy to press accidentally, which is why you need to click it 3 times to activate the light ( to prevent it from turning on accidentally ). in this respect Dinotte and Niteflux are superior because they have a properly stiff button that doesn't require excessively complex procedures to prevent accidental activation. of course it is hard to source a button with just the right amount of effort.


The "triple-click" turn-on mode (called Superlock) is definitely a safety feature, but it is by no means required to keep it. You can disable it and then simply turn on into steady mode with a single click OR turn-on into flashing mode with a press-and-hold. To learn how to disable, read Question/Answer #6 in the FAQ. The DS-500 also turns off identically to the Dinotte (long press until off).

Also, you just wouldn't believe how much trial and experimentation went into dialing in the "feel" of the power switch, with many different tact switch combinations. I landed on this one because it just felt "right" to me and I wanted riders to be able to activate with heavy gloves without issue. It's a very high quality tact switch with a 500,000 cycle life. I do have the ability to go a bit stiffer, so if I get a consensus feedback from users, I can absolutely make that change for the next build.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

pethelman said:


> Also, you just wouldn't believe how much trial and experimentation went into dialing in the "feel" of the power switch, with many different tact switch combinations. I landed on this one because it just felt "right" to me and I wanted riders to be able to activate with heavy gloves without issue. It's a very high quality tact switch with a 500,000 cycle life. I do have the ability to go a bit stiffer, so if I get a consensus feedback from users, I can absolutely make that change for the next build.


i definitely believe you. your switch feels pretty good. i'd be perfectly happy with the switch the way it is ( although ideally i would prefer it a bit stiffer ).

it's the superlock that i think is taking it too far. i think the idea itself is good, but should be simplified a little bit. i don't think completely disabling it is the way to go either. i just think that click+click+press is too complicated. i think a single click or a single press could occur by accident easily. anything more complex than that such as two clicks is unlikely to be accidental. i think two clicks for flash mode and a click + press for solid would make a lot of sense, and then a single long press to turn off ( just the way it already is ).

i also think there is value in having the same turn on sequence on your light as on the lights that people are already used to operating. chances are whoever is buying your light has previously had a dinotte, so keeping the operation similar would make it easier for the user to adapt.

all in all, not criticism, just something i would have done differently if it was me.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Yes, thanks for bringing up the issue. I've had more inquires on how to actually power on the light than anything else (bar none). Over the years, I haven't had any control over this since I was using the "off-the-shelf" maxflex controller, but now that I'm getting into higher volume and also have the ability to re-flash the boards, I think it's probably a reasonable proposition for me to work with George and see if we can clean up the Superlock operation. Of course, it's completely second nature to me as-is (having done it for so long), but I do like the idea of a simple double-click to get into flashing mode, and a click-press to get into solid burn. I think this would be much more intuitive out of the box. Anyone else like the idea of changing it?


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

OKAY ! here is the video i just made - Beam Shot comparison of DS500 against Dinotte Daytime Red and NiteFlux Red Zone 8 ...

I also show all of the solid and flashing modes pre-programmed into DS500 out of the box.

Needless to say DS500 won. But we knew that was going to happen. The observations i would like to make are:

1 - the NiteFlux is completely outclassed by both Dinotte and DesignShine.

2 - Dinotte Daytime Red actually has a very nice pattern ! No artifacts whatsoever !

3 - I discovered that it is actually a lot easier to judge relative performance on lights on the video than it is by watching them with your own eyes ! To my eyes the DS500 and Daytime Red looked almost the same, but on video the difference is clear.

the Dinotte is ultimately crippled by its limited selection of operating modes whereas the NiteFlux ( as i have said repeatedly ) should best be reserved for side lighting altogether as it simply doesn't offer the kind of focused beam you want in a tail light. in my opinion anyway.

as for DS500 the dimming range in solid mode it VERY IMPRESSIVE ! however the flashing mode doesn't make full use of that range because the lowest mode isn't ON/OFF in L1 as you would expect, but rather switching between L1 and L2. so in flashing mode you only have half the dimming capability as compared to the solid mode. i hope this is eventually changed, but you can draw your own conclusions from the video.

EDIT: PLEASE NOTE I DID NOT CLEAN THE LENS ON THE DINOTTE, SO IT WAS ACTUALLY LOSING PROBABLY ABOUT 20% OF ITS OUTPUT DUE TO THE LENS BEING A BIT DUSTY, COMPARED TO DS500 WHICH WAS COMPLETELY CLEAN. I HAVE SINCE CLEANED THE LENS WITH RUBBING ALCOHOL BEFORE DOING THE OUTDOOR VIDEO, SO IN THE OUTDOOR VIDEO BOTH LIGHTS HAVE CLEAN LENS.


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## Brooks04 (Jun 1, 2004)

pethelman said:


> Yes, thanks for bringing up the issue. I've had more inquires on how to actually power on the light than anything else (bar none). Over the years, I haven't had any control over this since I was using the "off-the-shelf" maxflex controller, but now that I'm getting into higher volume and also have the ability to re-flash the boards, I think it's probably a reasonable proposition for me to work with George and see if we can clean up the Superlock operation. Of course, it's completely second nature to me as-is (having done it for so long), but I do like the idea of a simple double-click to get into flashing mode, and a click-press to get into solid burn. I think this would be much more intuitive out of the box. Anyone else like the idea of changing it?


I do not care for the Superlock feature and turned that off. If I turn my light on accidentally I am going to know it with it being so bright. If I was to carry the light in a bag or case I would simply keep it unplugged from the battery. I like the new switch, but agree a slightly stiffer click would be better. Overall a great light!


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## Sherbona (Mar 23, 2011)

androgen said:


> -- snip --
> as for DS500 the dimming range in solid mode it VERY IMPRESSIVE ! however the flashing mode doesn't make full use of that range because the lowest mode isn't ON/OFF in L1 as you would expect, but rather switching between L1 and L2. so in flashing mode you only have half the dimming capability as compared to the solid mode. i hope this is eventually changed, but you can draw your own conclusions from the video.


The modes are customizable. If you prefer mode 6 to toggle between Off and L1 instead of L1 and L2 then it should be possible (if you already know this, you can disregard, sorry!) The DesignShine store site has a 'programmers guide' that can be downloaded. The flash mode changes are described in the '14th' click menu. It might sound hard the first time looking at the guide, but just take your time, keep count of your clicks and presses and you'll have it in no time. Here are the changes I made to mine (see earlier in this thread for link to sharkattack's video):

#_Low__LDur__High__HDur_Rpt_D/N___Comment
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1__L1___80ms__L5___80ms__2__Day___from Shark Attack's video
2__L1___30ms__L5___30ms__2__Day___from Shark Attack's video
3__OFF_260ms__L3__110ms__1__Day___default
4__L3_1200ms__L5___40ms__3__Day___default except repeat=3 (not 1)
5__L1__900ms__L3__120ms__2__Night__default except repeat=2 (not 3)
6__L1__500ms__L2__500ms__1__Night__default

I'll probably make some more changes down the road (maybe change to what you mentioned for #6)


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

androgen said:


> OKAY ! here is the video i just made - Beam Shot comparison of DS500 against Dinotte Daytime Red and NiteFlux Red Zone 8 ...


Thanks for the great video! Just to clarify two points...
The slight change in the flash pattern that you saw during the test with the unit flashing at high power was the "out the back" battery indicator. This recurs every 20 seconds when the battery capacity it roughly between 50% and 20% for a given power level. The idea is that you can occasionally glance back and get an indication of where you stand with regard to battery life with out having to stop and get off the bike. During flash mode, the "interruption" is to go solid at the HIGH level (for that flash mode) for 3 seconds, with a single blip OFF to indicate the 50% to 20% range. When below 20% the same thing will continue, but with 2 short OFF blips during the 3 second steady period. During the last 1-minute warning before the light shuts off, there will be 3 short OFF blips.

I should also note that if you change power levels or flash mode, the light will re-evaluate the battery status. So if you hit the 50% battery level while flashing at Level 5, you could then switch to a lower power flash mode and see the indication go away until the battery had drained considerably more. New for build 4 is a built-in status LED, so you'll also get battery status immediately and continuously via the circuit-board mounted LED glowing through the indicator window in the lid as well as diffusely through the power button (great at night).

Lastly, although I have defined flash mode #6 as an ON/Pulse toggle between L1/L2 (as seen on the video), you can very easily define it as a simple On/OFF at L1, achieving the super low power flash you were hoping for. See post #67 for some good info on programming.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Sherbona said:


> I'll probably make some more changes down the road (maybe change to what you mentioned for #6)


i was thinking about which modes i would like to have and i think one interesting mode to have would be a solid light that turns off momentarily twice a second. sort of like a reverse lightning mode. it should have a good combination of visibility and being easy on the eyes i think. the downside to such a mode would be battery drain / heat but for L1 this shouldn't be an issue.

i was hoping i would be able to avoid reprogramming the light, but we'll see how it goes.

i used to have a NiteRider PRO DIY 3600 light that connected to USB over computer and you could easily customize the modes with a graphic user interface - that was awesome. i wish more lights would have that capability.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Hey Stephen !

Since you said to keep the ideas coming here is one idea: 

Offer a removable diffuser for night time use. That way during the day you could have a bright focused beam and at night instead of dimming just slip a diffuser over the lens and double the beam width ( at 1/4 the brightness ).

Just a snap on polycarbonate lens.


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## pigmode (Nov 15, 2009)

From observation I tend to believe larger lenses give improved visibility at night.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Here is the outdoor video.

I used DS500 on seatpost, Daytime Red on back of Helmet and NiteFlux Red Zone 8 on each side of helmet - left and right. The headlights on helmet are 2 X L&M Seca 1700. ( other lights used are in video description )

The video is short but you get the idea. It's pretty much what you would have expected from watching my indoor video.

Oh yeah, i blasted the DS500 at the highest setting even though it was at night. I kept all lights at maximum setting so it was a fair comparison.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

Holy F%#€!!!!! Bad ass video. Thanks androgen!!

I just went out for a quick 10 miler with my DS and damn I love this light!!!!!

There is no tail light on the market than can compete with this light. Plus the customizable setting is the icing on the cake for me!!! People may say 229$ for a tail light. But it is well worth it!!!!


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Gharddog03 said:


> Bad ass video.


Thanks !



Gharddog03 said:


> I just went out for a quick 10 miler with my DS and damn I love this light!!!!!
> 
> There is no tail light on the market than can compete with this light. Plus the customizable setting is the icing on the cake for me!!! People may say 229$ for a tail light. But it is well worth it!!!!


I agree


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Probably one of the best nighttime taillight video comparisons I've ever seen. Thanks very much for making it! I feel sorry for anyone that may have happened up behind you that night! They're probably still telling stories about it...


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

pethelman said:


> Probably one of the best nighttime taillight video comparisons I've ever seen. Thanks very much for making it! I feel sorry for anyone that may have happened up behind you that night! They're probably still telling stories about it...


"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pethelman again"

Hehe.

Anyway, believe it or not it's not a comparison though - It's just how i intend to ride 

I will of course dim the DS500 to a more reasonable level at night but aside from that i will keep all of the lights just as they are in the video.

I think all of the lights used in the video are good lights and all have benefits in certain situations. I don't run all lights at once most of the time, but i do ride with all of them mounted and ready to go. I turn them on and off as traffic conditions ( and time of day ) dictate. I've been riding this way all year, the only thing that's changed is that now i have double the lumens out the back, but the configuration remains identical.

So it's not actually a contest. I consider every light in this video a winner.

I think any one light, even as good as DS500 will always have "blind spots" so to speak. An average car today has about 20 different lights in its exterior performing various functions. An emergency vehicle probably has close to 50.

Nobody drives by a police car on the side of the highway with flashing lights visible from a mile away in any direction and thinks "are they on crack?" Because every police car is like that people *assume* that there is a good reason for this. In fact there is a good reason for anybody who doesn't want to die on the road to be that bright from every angle if you're going to be moving at a different speed from all other vehicles. The police only turn on the lights on when they are stopped, or when passing other cars - why ? Because when you're moving at the same speed as all other cars you're not in danger of colliding with them. But a bike is always in danger of being hit, because it is always moving at a different speed from cars, so it should always be as bright as a police car - from ALL angles.

But people don't think - they copy. People like me who use analytical thinking instead of automatic copying will always look funny - that's just human nature. And i got used to it.

I predict in another 30 years setups like mine will be commonplace. Not because of changes in technology, but because of changes in what people perceive as "normal" or "appropriate" ...

The perception of what is "appropriate" bathing suit has changed from this:

http://seesaw.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54fabf0ec88330134832ea893970c-450wi

To a bikini even though the technology hasn't changed at all.

For now though, most people are only willing to have a single tail light out of self-conscious reasons and if you're one of these people, no doubt you will be better protected by DS500 than any other one light.

That said, i will continue running 13 lights  I have explained elsewhere the rationale for every single one of them.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*Quick Service Update*

Hey guys!
I just had an interesting email exchange with one of my recent customers (Rob), who has just finished up his 11K mile goal for the year in some cold weather, and as a result, I need to pass along this information. If you have a build 4 light that shipped before 12/25/14 and you plan on doing some cold weather riding (like below 35 degF), then you need to perform this short procedure on the light.

*Problem synapsis...
*Because of the very tightly sealed inner cavity and the new switch that is depressed by the silicon button, which is actually molded into the sealing membrane, the cold temperature can actually cause the air in the chamber to contract enough to pull the membrane down and depress the switch! This is bad... and can cause the light be unusable in cold weather due to the fact that the switch is being held down. If you connect the battery while this is happening, you can inadvertently enter programming mode, and this could be really bad.

*Problem fix...*
Locate your 5/64" allan wrench (same as 2mm) and keep it handy. Take the light and put it in the freezer for 5 to 10 minutes, or until you can pull it out and verify that you can no longer click the power button. After you have re-created the problem, very quickly pull the light out of the freezer and quickly loosen each of the four lid hold down screws. You don't want to remove them, but simply loosen each one slightly (maybe 2 or 3 compete turns) so that the seal can be broken and the cavity can re-pressurize. As soon as you do this, you should hear the button click back up, and the button operation should be back to normal. Immediately re-tighten the four screws, but careful not to over tighten. You're done! The side benefit of this procedure is that the switch will now feel a bit firmer at room and hot temperatures, due to the slight pressurization of the inside of the cavity. If you ever remove the lens, or even just the center screw on the lens cover, then this process would need to be repeated to restore the functionality at the cold temperatures. I plan on pre-conditioning all future lights in this way, but wanted to get this info out as soon as possible to all my existing build 4 customers.

Thanks and Happy New Year!

[UPDATE: 12/30/14]
As I've been performing the cold-soak conditioning on a hand full of lights, I'm noticing that I don't get a 100% failure rate. In other words, there may be a few that you can put in the freezer that will never experience the problem. If you do this procedure on your own light and the button is not "stuck down" after a 5 to 10 minute cold soak, then there is no need to crack the seal and equalize the pressure.

Also, after I performed the cold-soak conditioning on a light that DID need it, I subsequently exposed it to multiple cold/hot cycles without issue to verify the fix. However, I'm not sure how well this will hold after a full season of hot weather riding, so as a GENERAL RULE, always carry your 5/64" (2mm) Allen wrench with you in your tool bag when you're going out for that first sub-freezing ride of the season.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Stephen, since it seems you will probably be redesigning the button anyway, did you ever consider putting a 2nd button on the light ?

There is a quote i like, often attributed to Einstein ( that appears to be a radical paraphrasing ) namely "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler" ...

Sometimes i wonder if having a single button on a light with so much functionality is trying to take simplicity too far ?

Yes i realize nearly every light on the market has a single button, but also nearly every light has a lot less functionality in terms of programming.

Maybe one large button and one small button could simplify operation. A large "on-off" button and a small "mode" button.

For example my MonkeyLectric M232 lights actually have 3 buttons. It's a little hard to use because they are all the same size and at night seeing the difference between black and red button is hard. but once you found the buttons it is very intuitive - the light has hundreds of patterns and you don't even need to read instructions to switch them. 

most people aren't very much into reading instructions. i never read instructions from any car that i drove. i drove a car for 3 years and always wondered how to turn on the fog lamps but i never looked it up. returned the car without ever using them once. my guess is 90% of people are like me. yes simplicity is good, but intuitive interface in my opinion is better. a single button operating 100 functions will never be intuitive no matter how clever you are at re-arranging click sequences.

I think if two buttons can have distinctly different feel to the touch ( so you could tell the difference with gloves on and your eyes closed ) that would open up a lot of possibilities, both in terms of programming and preventing accidental operation.

for example, with "main" and "secondary" button, operation could be:

turn on: double click main.
turn off: hold down main for 2 seconds.
toggle between solid and flashing: click secondary
cycle through levels or patterns: click primary
check battery status: hold down secondary for 2 seconds while the light is off.
enter programming mode: holding down secondary button double click the main. 

basically all the commonly used functions could be performed with one thumb, and the advanced functions with two thumbs. everything would be done through a combination of clicks, presses and double clicks without any long sequences or long holds - i think people would find it faster, more direct and more intuitive.

i think its just the way human brain works - it likes to associate objects ( button is an object ) with functions. the brain doesn't associate sequences with functions. the car doesn't switch into reverse by turning the engine on twice followed by revving it out for 3 seconds, and you don't turn on the AC in the car by opening and closing the moonroof 3 times. yes you could design a car to operate this way but people would be confused. 

i can't think of any commercial success based on taking something simple to use and making it harder. there are, of course, countless examples of the opposite. people are lazy and dumb - you must design products for people as they are, not as you wish they were.


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## adams22 (Aug 4, 2017)

ds-500 tailing is anybody got this light and decided to sell?? working or not working condition [email protected]


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