# TubeNotcher Program (Tube Miter Template Revisted)



## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

I wrote a piece of software to revisit tube to tube joints. The tube to tube miter thing is standard fare, but I was interested in taking it a bit further. I was reading Steve Garro's blog (www.juniper-solutions.com/coconinocycles/) where he describes using external sleeves used on bicycle frames as a seat tube reinforcement. That inspired me to add the section on decorative tube end treatments. I was thinking a sine wave would be cool.. and once started, I went all in to write a handy piece of software. Steve may not be the first person to use sleeves like that as reinforcements, but his are the first that I ever saw. Very impressive and inspirational guy. Thanks Steve!

I had another motivating encounter during a two hour sitdown with Jay_NTWR (of the Walt Works Tubing Project fame) during his recent visit to Detroit. Jay recommended a close description / aid to help with the Seat Stay (SS) to Seat Tube (ST) joint. I will say my head still hurts from doing the descriptive geometry calculations to figure out that joint.

The program does three things: 

 It analyses two tubes which meet at any angle, and at any centerline offset. The output includes a full scale paper template for both outer and inner surface of hollow tube. The output includes angular reference lines as well as length determination lines (to tubing centerline intersection) This means you can use the template to aid in accurate tubing length determination.
 The program includes some decorative end treatments for a external sleeve reinforcement. 
 Finally, I included a convenient method to analyse the SS to ST joint.
Program at:

*http://www.dogfeatherdesign.com/ttn/*

I'd be very curious to obtain feedback (either via MTBR private message PM's or email [email protected]) particularly on the SS/ST joint thing. Anybody want to be a software beta tester? And yes, you can include that on your next resume, enabling you to obtain that really great paying job. Great, use the weblink above, let me know what you think.

Note this is in prototype at that URL.. I don't think the program will remain at that location indefinitely. I do expect it to be on the web at a convenient permanent location in the near future, likely on the web site of a related supplier ( perhaps a tubing related material / or tooling source near you?) .

Many thanks in advance for your feedback,

zip.


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

Hey man, cool applet. I have one suggestion, when I do this at work (using Pro/E, however), I put circumferenctial lines on the template. It allows you to align the two edges of the template more accurately, especially when you are a moron with scissors.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Very cool. I could have used this day when I was cutting a cusset.

It seems very nice. I'd love to see an addition for gussets. Also a few more decorative options. Also not having the notes on the tube would be good. Maybe an option for location.


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

RoyDean: Good call on the alignment marks. Will do.



pvd said:


> Very cool. I could have used this day when I was cutting a cusset. It seems very nice. I'd love to see an addition for gussets. Also a few more decorative options. ... .


I'm assuming that a 'cusset' is a gusset that you cuss at a lot ? When you say to add gussets to the program, are you talking about a 1) Saddle shaped reinforcement 2) A tubular gusset in whole or in part or 3) a flat plate gusset?

Saddle Shaped Reinforcement:









A gusset made from straight tube in whole or in part:










Another shot of a straight tube in part used as a gusset:










Flat Plate Gusset:










A gusset output is a great idea.. All it takes is time.. no promises, let me sleep on it? (I'm assuming you are only talking about a round straight tube used as a gusset in whole or in part.. like on the Surly KM or Salsa photo above.. I would think the saddle or flat plate could be done pretty easily without input from me?)

The other comment you made was to add more decorative options? (You did see the option to change # of cycles and amplitute?) I was initially thinking of adding stars, moon, clover and pink hearts, but that seemed kinda trivial.. anyone can print those now and just put 'em anywhere. Ditto for lettering.. I did include orientation lines @ 0/90/180/270 on my templates to aid in layout of those kinds of things. Aaargh.. No I didn't.. missed 'em. (How did I do that?) Next go around will add those, the RoyDean alignment marks, and date/time to the paper printout.

thanks for the input,
zip.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Not working on my latest versions of Firefox or Safari for OSX.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Thylacine said:


> Not working on my latest versions of Firefox or Safari for OSX.


It may be JAVA. Make sure it's up to date. BikeCAD is JAVA based and you gotta always be current for it to run.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

zipzit said:


> I was initially thinking of adding stars, moon, clover and pink hearts, but that seemed kinda trivial


Dope! Anything more is great!

...and, yes, I meant gusset.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

zipzit said:


> Another shot of a straight tube in part used as a gusset:


This is what I was doing.


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## Marco83333 (Jul 6, 2009)

zipzit said:


> I was initially thinking of adding stars, moon, clover and pink hearts, but that seemed kinda trivial..


It's Mom's fault for not letting us eat more _Lucky Charms_ cereal


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

pvd said:


> It may be JAVA. Make sure it's up to date. BikeCAD is JAVA based and you gotta always be current for it to run.


Yep I'm current and it's enabled. I still get a big white box with a red X in the corner.


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## ROSKO (Oct 11, 2009)

I use this one from time to time, well done and addresses many of the issues mentioned.

http://metalgeek.com/static/cope.pcgi


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> Yep I'm current and it's enabled. I still get a big white box with a red X in the corner.


Thylacine, thanks for your troubleshooting efforts. In large part, I do believe the issue is mine. I did find a single null pointer exception error. It looks like windows versions of the java engine is a bit more accomodating of that error.

Error has now been corrected. Software updated to include the official RoyDean alignment tic marks, and the orientation lines for end tube treatments. I also added date/time and footer info to the paper printout. I found myself printing multiple times with minor changes, and getting mixed up. Date / time info helps.

Thylacine: There is one thing. Your screen print indicates java at level 5. My program requires java version 6 [also called 1.6] .. on non-apple machines, if the program sees that you have an earlier version, it sends you to the sun website for an automatic upgrade (subject to the users approval of course.) the only exception is on Apple machines. Apple provides the java software, it doesn't come from Sun.com direct... so no automatic check and upgrade.

ref: http://java.com/en/download/manual.jsp

Updates for Apple are available via instructions at http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1338?viewlocale=en_US

(Hmmm.. I think I will add those links to the web page for anybody else who might get to this situation.)

Rosko: The program you mention does work well for most operations and there are programs out there as well. You may have noted that I have included links on the bottom of my instruction screen to all the tube miter programs that I am aware of, including the link you mentioned. When you dig, you will find differences among them all. I do believe I have enhancements that will please most folks.

thanks to all for your patience and feedback.

zip.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Thanks for the hard work Zip. I look forward to using this and seeing it get even better.

One think that I like about your version is that it shows both sides of the tube mitre. That's nice.

A metric/english switch would be nice. Also in metric or english mode, allow X or / by 25.4 in the entry. That helps sometimes.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Zip, sorry I've been out of pocket. This is looking GREAT! I'm around this week, had a wedding all weekend this weekend and had the phone turned off for the most part.

Awesome work and I'm trying to get back to mine this week. Hopefully I'll have something worthwhile to post this week.

EDIT: BTW, it's working fine on my Firefox 3.5.5 and Java Version 6 Update 15 on 32-bit Vista.


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## merk (Jan 12, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Yep I'm current and it's enabled. I still get a big white box with a red X in the corner.


I get the same thing.

As far as I can tell, You need to have OS X 10.5 (Leopard) or higher to install Java 6.


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## bent steel (Oct 24, 2005)

merk said:


> I get the same thing.
> 
> As far as I can tell, You need to have OS X 10.5 (Leopard) or higher to install Java 6.


I think this is true, but it also appears to not support PowerPC machines. I'm running a PowerPC with 10.5.8 and it said it was updating to Java 6 but still shows Java 5 after the "update". There doesn't seem to be any provision for updating my Intel machine running 10.4.11 any further than Java 5.


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## thrash (Feb 9, 2005)

*Java 6 for OS X*

http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte
This appears to be about the only option to run Java 6 on a 10.4.x Mac. It is targeted more at developers, but might allow you to run this applet on an older Mac OS if you want to give it a try.



bent steel said:


> I think this is true, but it also appears to not support PowerPC machines. I'm running a PowerPC with 10.5.8 and it said it was updating to Java 6 but still shows Java 5 after the "update". There doesn't seem to be any provision for updating my Intel machine running 10.4.11 any further than Java 5.


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## thrash (Feb 9, 2005)

*Java Preferences*

Does your version of OS X have the /Applications/Utilities/JavaPreferences.app? If so, this is what is used to change the default JVM used by the OS. You may want to give that a try.

It may also be located in /Applications/Utilities/Java/Java Preferences.app depending on the version of the OS.



bent steel said:


> I think this is true, but it also appears to not support PowerPC machines. I'm running a PowerPC with 10.5.8 and it said it was updating to Java 6 but still shows Java 5 after the "update". There doesn't seem to be any provision for updating my Intel machine running 10.4.11 any further than Java 5.


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

Any chance it could print to file? More to the point, save as a vector based file (.ai or .dxf)?


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

Apparently I can't win for losing. I went back, downloaded previous version of java. installed it with the intent of testing software as written. Crashed my computer hard. Cleaned that up. When I reclaimed all my files I have discovered signficant differences between the two version that directly affects my program. Biggest difference is the layout for tabbed input. The software layout engines are totally different. No easy way to fix this. I could manually code each and every entry, but it will take a very long time, plus its just not fun work. (Kinda like if you were making a custom bike, and the customer called at the last minute and said, hey could you just make those lugs in stainless steel, give 'em fancy cutouts and polish all of em bright? He'd be willing to add, say, $10 to the price for your efforts...) No promises on me doing this, okay?

Profuse apologies... I didn't realize the Apple Java thing was so disconnected. Dang, it would almost be easier to volunteer to the Apple team that ports the latest version of Java over than it would be to recode, sigh. Had I realized, I should have developed in Macromedia Flash... (In bike frame terms that's like... oops. Fillet brazing won't work, I'll have to to it in TIG next time. It's a big investment in learning curve and $$. )



Kavik said:


> Any chance it could print to file? More to the point, save as a vector based file (.ai or .dxf)?


 That's actually a great idea, for anyone using large tubing. Something where you need a full size plotter for output. I do suspect that's beyond the scope of most bicycle frame guys. (If you really must save output.. there's always print to .pdf...) Kavik, if you do have a current need for .dxf out, contact me direct. zipzit at yahoo dot com. I do the .dxf out as a macro on my current frame design Excel spreadsheet (personal use only.) Input key dimensions, output bike geometry to CAD. (hmmm. perhaps that's a opportunity for a new applet?)

I'm currently thinking two unique and different versions of this software.

1) For bicycle frame builders. As shown here with possible addition of PVD gusset / brace tab. I'd really like to do that. It'd be way cool. I have an idea I'd like to try. It will take a few days.

2) for generic tube users. Generic package less bicycle specific tabs. I'd probably include an update for partial tube engagements (two tubes that partially intersect and continue on.) and perhaps a .dxf out routine. Another option here is printout (landscape/portrait) button.

Slightly different topic: Has anybody tried to to the Seatstay to Seat Tube routine for real? Anybody close in your current frame build? Andrew / Jay, are you close to seat stay cutting in your current projects? I'd sure like to know how this is working.. I've done it in paper only, looks great, but paper is not steel. Its much easier to scotch tape a joint than it is to braze one.

thanks to all for input.
zip


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

zipzit said:


> Slightly different topic: Has anybody tried to to the Seatstay to Seat Tube routine for real? Anybody close in your current frame build? Andrew / Jay, are you close to seat stay cutting in your current projects? I'd sure like to know how this is working.


That's one of the reasons I txt'd you last night. I was getting ready to try it but ended up drunk instead. I did get some good stuff done last night as part of my next update, but just not ready to show it yet. I need a couple of more days.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Kavik said:



> Any chance it could print to file? More to the point, save as a vector based file (.ai or .dxf)?


I think that a .dxf output would be awesome. Sure, you could convert a print to .pdf to .dxf, but keeping things as close to native from the outset is good.

I have to generate .dxf for any laser or water cutting. .dxf is pretty handy.


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

Warrick, Merk, Bent Steel, Thrash (and other Apple Users..)

Rewrite to Java5 to accomodate java for Apple Computers. Does this work for you guys? 

http://www.dogfeatherdesign.com/ttn_Java5/

--zip.

http://www.dog


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Works a treat mate, thanks for your hard work.

Yeah, I'd love a vector output too - dxf, ai, or pdf.


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## Sick Sticks (Jan 18, 2008)

Zipsit, Coincidentally I was working on an addition to the Tube Miter Template program also. I did a little research and found the derivation to the elegant Tube Miter program and I tried to modify it. My dream was to add it to the excellent BG101 Excel file that, among other things, has a miter function. After a few fits and starts I think it's out of my range.
My hope was to produce a formula for a pattern at the bottom bracket/chain stay junction, ie. intersect an ellipse with a cylinder. I know the chain stays aren't perfect ellipses but I thought something to get me close would help a lot (I'm on frame #3 and use a lot of time on this cope). It turns out that ellipses are complex things so I found a formula to approximate an ellipse and thought I was getting somewhere but in the end I just didn't see how the final equation would work (in other words, I didn't fully understand the original Tube Miter derivation).
So, I guess my point is, zipzit, that I would love to see you untangle the mystery that has been haunting me for a couple of months now...the holy grail of patterns, ellipse vs. cylinder. Thanks.


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

Sick Sticks said:


> ...After a few fits and starts I think it's out of my range.
> My hope was to produce a formula for a pattern at the bottom bracket/chain stay junction, ie. intersect an ellipse with a cylinder... I would love to see you untangle the mystery that has been haunting me for a couple of months now...the holy grail of patterns, ellipse vs. cylinder. Thanks.


Funny, Jay and I had a couple of long talks on that very topic. Problem is for many, the chainstays have a curve (in plan view) right where they hit the bottom bracket. I can model it on a perfect elipse, but there is no way to put the paper template on the tube when its curved like that. No problem for a road bike with straight chain stays, but very problematic for a tight fit mountain bike. Our tenative conclusion was you'd be better off building a dropout/chainstay holding fixture even if built out of wood, at least for a mountain bike frame. Don't forget you still have to account for dropout alignment. (Wait.. are you working on road bike or MTB? I guess that would make a big difference...)

I have already added a ellipitical tube to my list of things to do in my spare time, but it's just not first on my list. I don't mind adding it, if someone can use it. Right now I'm working on a tubular brace/gusset solution per PVD. Solution works for HT/DT 'gusset', Seat Extension brace, disc brake brace, and Chain Stay / Seat Stay bridges. Hardest part is defining the inputs to users. Its just not intuitive. Some guys don't get that a short tube used for a brace is a simple short tube used for a brace, no matter where located. I'm generating How-to-photos right now. When that is done, next is .DXF out.

A couple of things. I did see a tube miter derivation that someone had posted, and I couldn't make heads or tails of it. I referenced it at the bottom of my instruction screen. My solution was based on old descriptive geometry analysis. (That used to be an advanced drafting class in community college...)

thanks for the input.
--zip


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

*TubeNotcher+*

Okay, just finished uploading the next iteration of this software. I'm hoping you guys will be major geek'd. Tab added for braces and brackets. Pretty flexible, hopefully something the big guys on this forum can use.

https://www.dogfeatherdesign.com/ttn/

Sample output of the little HT/DT gusset that PVD spoke of (thanks for the idea, Pete):









I will say, I've only tested against 3D CAD drawings. It looks correct there. I've not put it on metal tubes myself yet. This software is still in prototype.

Couple of things: 
1) This is compiled at old level Java for maximum Apple Mac user compatibility. If you go to the other site for apple folks, it now just redirects you to this one. Google Analytics keeps track of who is coming from where to use this thing. I was surprised that more than 20% of the users of the applet are on Mac's. (Can any apple users send me screen prints? I can't tell what this looks like on an Apple computer.) 
2) Next iteration will include DXF out.
3) I do appreciate any feedback, either on the forum, or by PM or by email zipzit at yahoo dot com.

Zip
Metro Detroit, Michigan, USA.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Perfect timing. I'll test out your new gusset feature sometime this coming week.

Thanks for all the hard work!


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Hey Zip,

I know it's the holidays and all, but do you have an ETA for the dxf/pdf output?

It's the missing link!


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## zank (May 19, 2005)

Wow. Zip, this program is incredible. Thank you!


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> Hey Zip,
> 
> I know it's the holidays and all, but do you have an ETA for the dxf/pdf output?
> 
> It's the missing link!


My day job got quite busy.. I'm on the road this week.. but I'm shooting for completion this upcoming weekend. (We get Monday off!) Will post here when complete.

--zip


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## shandcycles (Jan 15, 2008)

Are you doing some kind of detection when you go to the page? My browser (Chrome on OSX 10.6.2) redirects to Suns Java page when I hit your page. I have both 1.5 and 1.6 installed and configured.

Page loads ok in Firefox btw but I can't get it to print.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I'm trying to use this right now for doing a gusset. It's a bit vague as to which tube is #1 and #2. More options would be helpful too. Like, gusset angle from either tube.


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

shandcycles said:


> Are you doing some kind of detection when you go to the page? My browser (Chrome on OSX 10.6.2) redirects to Suns Java page when I hit your page. I have both 1.5 and 1.6 installed and configured.Page loads ok in Firefox btw but I can't get it to print.


PM sent.



pvd said:


> I'm trying to use this right now for doing a gusset. It's a bit vague as to which tube is #1 and #2. More options would be helpful too. Like, gusset angle from either tube.


Pete, I hear ya... problem is its tough to keep it simple and than have lots and lots of options. The interface gets real messy.

Which is tube 1 and 2? .. just pick a method and stay consistent. If you need guidance from me.. lets say left is 1 and right is 2... (Unless you are standing on the other side of the bike, ha!)

I was figuring that for a gusset you would already have the other parts of the frame finished.. The length method is very very easy if you have a $3 machinist scale and a frame to measure from. (Not so easy if you are working off of CAD pure... not impossible, just not so easy if you are using a snap function to measure things. )

anyway, let me know...
zip


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Hangin' out bigtime for the dxf out, zipzit.

Can't get the print function to work, either btw.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Thylacine said:


> Hangin' out bigtime for the dxf out, zipzit.
> 
> Can't get the print function to work, either btw.


Zip travels a lot on bidness. I'm guessing he's trying to make a living as it's been a few days since I've heard from him.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

is there a trick to getting it to print? I also get the redirect to Sun under chrome.


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> Hangin' out bigtime for the dxf out, zipzit.
> Can't get the print function to work, either btw.


I've been working with Warwick offline, and it turns out to run the DXF version you must be able to load Java 1.6.10 or newer. To use the DXF Output button on an Apple computer requires Leopard / Snow Leopard versions of the Mac Operating System (O/S). I haven't gone live to the world yet, but expect that to happen any day now. I'm just waiting to transfer the new website to the domain name. (Let's hear it for the folks that fillet braze their frames! You'll understand that comment when you see the site.)



Unterhausen said:


> is there a trick to getting it to print? I also get the redirect to Sun under chrome.


We've had a couple of issues. I've redesigned the site a little. Now when you enter http://www.dogfeatherdesign.com/ttn/ You will get a page that describes and allows you to test for the correct version of Java. I've discovered some problems for:

Apple / Mac Users
Linux Users
Windows Users without admin rights.
If you are stuck with one of these situations, please read the entry screen for hints and tips on how to make this thing run right. Apologies to you, apparently the world is conspiring to make it hard to develop a full featured program that runs the same way on many different types of computers.

I will say the paper output version of the software should work for Apple users with Java 1.5 or better, but do read the instructions on the first entry page, and do click on the www.javatester.org link.

A couple of things of interest relating to that tubenotcher site. I've been playing around with Google Analytics (which keeps track of site traffic, cool tool.) and it shows me that 77% of the visitors to this site use Windows machines, 16% on Apple, and 7% are on linux. There are visitors from 20 different countries, in 13 different languages. Way cool. (And this site is set to remain pretty much invisible from browser search engines. This is just a prototype location...I'm not keeping it there forever. I will post up the correct link when it moves, and pump it so the browser search engines can find it.) I do recommend Google Analytics for anybody who has their own web site. There is no cost for that tool.

And hey, has anybody used this program to build a BMX / PVD style clear-the-top-of-the-fork gusset / brace between the HeadTube and DownTube yet? just curious how that worked out. I can see how you can mark that, but how do you hold it when cutting, filing? Its too small a piece of tube for tube holders. I don't think a lug vise will work. I think you need a hook vise like the fly fishermen use to tie feathers, yarn and thread on their lures only bigger.

thanks to all for your feedback, zip.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I haven't been able to convince linux to print anything at 100% scale anyway, so I am using windows for my template needs now. Not sure why they even bother having a "no scaling" setting on the printer setup dialog box.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

page broken


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

pvd said:


> page broken


 oops. Typing error when I added in the instruction page. Corrected. Please Try again http://www.dogfeatherdesign.com/ttn/ thanks.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

This program is pretty cool and has some potential but I 've been having some trouble with the gusset templates not printing the entire area of the gusset.


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

*Update.*

Sean,

Thanks for the feedback and the screen print. I can fix that, just not until I get home from day job today. Should be something I can do in one day.

Pete Verdone... Haven't forgotten about your metric/english request. Its NOT easy to do. I will take a look at that as well.

Also... on this program... update.. The bicycle frame version of this software will now reside with the folks who sell bicycle tubing and framebuilder accessories at Nova Cycles http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/. You can link to the tube notcher page with navigation button on the top or on the left side margin.

Direct link is http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/Tabbed-Tube-Notcher.html

I will provide an autodirect link from old site to new, so nobody gets lost.

thanks,
--zip


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

zipzit said:


> this software will now reside with the folks who sell bicycle tubing and framebuilder accessories at Nova Cycles


Very Cool!


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

smudge said:


> This program is pretty cool and has some potential but I 've been having some trouble with the gusset templates not printing the entire area of the gusset.


Shawn, followup to our telephone call. I didn't see it at first, but the gusset tube you used is a larger diameter than one of the tubes you are attaching it to. That will mean squeezing / flattening it to fit or using silver solder for a finish up. The software kinda chokes on divide by zero / infinity calculations when the mitered tube doesn't fully terminate at the mating tube...

As a result of your issue, I updated the tubenotcher software tab to accomodate both sides of a "Pass Through" condition. An example would be a 25mm cut tube and a 10mm base tube.. try it at a 90 degree angle, and you would see two holes drilled thru the larger cut tube. The update accomodates either tube diameter and/or an offset setting which results in a "Pass Through" condition.










For your brace, I recommend running the Brace tab with the larger tube as tube #2, then run that tube #2 joint a second time on the TubeNotcher tab... You will get two paper outputs that look like this. Can you envision how the joint will looked when completed?










Click here for a full size image, using Sean's original tubing diameters and angles. I know this isn't terribly intuitive. Sorry, I can't win the make-it-simple-to-use, give-it-complex-capabilities tug of war. Note: I did NOT update the bracket tab for a pass through condition. I would not expect a normal brace to look like that. Here is a sample printout:

Another recommendation is to reduce the diameter of the brace to match the existing diameter of your _smallest_ tube in the set. That would save on having to squeeze and custom fit things.

Pete, still haven't gotten to your metric / english thing.. I have an idea that may work with minimal interface interference, based on our cursory discussion last week. Need a few more days...

--zip

And hey, if you guys like the software let Lon Kennedy and the folks at Nova Cycles know that we appreciate the sponsorship, will you? (oh.. and Send the attaboys to Lon, send the complaints to me.. thanks.)


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## Typo_Knig (Aug 8, 2009)

Kavik said:


> Any chance it could print to file? More to the point, save as a vector based file (.ai or .dxf)?


I was able to take the output from this and plot to a .pdf (I think you might need Acrobat Pro for this) and open in Illustrator as a vector drawing. You can then export as a .dxf or .dwg, but it comes in to ACAD kinda screwy. The wavy miter line comes in weirdly segmented. Would be nice if it came in as a polyline or even a spline.


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

Typo_Knig said:


> I was able to take the output from this and plot to a .pdf (I think you might need Acrobat Pro for this) and open in Illustrator as a vector drawing. You can then export as a .dxf or .dwg, but it comes in to ACAD kinda screwy. The wavy miter line comes in weirdly segmented. Would be nice if it came in as a polyline or even a spline.


Kavik, Typo_Knight: Ouch.. big ouch. No need to do that. Somewhere in these notes, I mentioned that there would be two copies of this software out there in web land.. a bicycle oriented version (which includes the seat stay to seat tube fastback junction...) and a more generic metal fabrication version (which includes a .DXF output option.) The DXF of the basic tube notcher is all done for you. It takes a few moments, there are a lot of points to generate. Be sure to save the file with a ".dxf" suffix. (I can't get the software to do that automatically.) Is should open right up into your CAD program, no fuss, no muss.

Bicycle version of TubeNotcher is at http://www.cycle-frames.com
Generic version of TubeNotcher is at http://www.cobratorch.net

The cobratorch.net site was just launched by me in the past day or so.

And you guys can probably guess my brand choices of tools and materials for my personal frame builds.

TK, the other thing.. when looking at polylines and splines its not so easy to calculate the control points.. Control points which sit on the output line, require a specialized CatMull Spline algorithm. For a simple discussion of curves in software see my sample at http://www.dogfeatherdesign.com/sample_1/Java_Curve.html If you need a solution for a specific business application, contact me via email.

--zip.


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## Typo_Knig (Aug 8, 2009)

zipzit said:


> Generic version of TubeNotcher is at http://www.cobratorch.net
> 
> The cobratorch.net site was just launched by me in the past day or so.


I didn't see the cobratorch link up there before I guess. Either way, thanks for all your work on this.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Typo_Knig said:


> I was able to take the output from this and plot to a .pdf (I think you might need Acrobat Pro for this) and open in Illustrator as a vector drawing. You can then export as a .dxf or .dwg, but it comes in to ACAD kinda screwy. The wavy miter line comes in weirdly segmented. Would be nice if it came in as a polyline or even a spline.


I'm curious what you guys want a DXF output from this thing for. What are you going to do with it in ACAD once it's in there? I'm just curious really because I feel like I'm missing out on something here.

I can bring DXF/DWG into Alibre but then I don't know what I'd do with that information other than just have it there. I suppose it would be a nice way to save miters with the frame so that I wouldn't have to recalculate them if I did another frame like that I suppose, but that's about the only benefit I can think of. A PDF would probably be just as good if not better for that. Hey Zip, how about a PDF output


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## Typo_Knig (Aug 8, 2009)

jay_ntwr said:


> I'm curious what you guys want a DXF output from this thing for. What are you going to do with it in ACAD once it's in there? I'm just curious really because I feel like I'm missing out on something here.


I am using a laser cutter that runs on ACAD to make some bilam pieces which will begin life as flat stock which I will roll around a tube and braze in place. (sorry for the run-on sentence) Because I am adept at ACAD, I am taking the miter and applying my further designs to the piece in addition to the laser cutting. It's just an easy piece of software for me to use.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Typo_Knig said:


> I am using a laser cutter that runs on ACAD to make some bilam pieces which will begin life as flat stock which I will roll around a tube and braze in place. (sorry for the run-on sentence) Because I am adept at ACAD, I am taking the miter and applying my further designs to the piece in addition to the laser cutting. It's just an easy piece of software for me to use.


Cool, that makes sense to me for sure. I'd like to see pictures of that.


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## jocko (Apr 29, 2005)

Zip - great program! I'm using it to miter my first seat stays. Questions for you on the reference lines on the template. You call these 0, 90, 180, 270, 360 degrees. How do these line match up with the "phase" line on would use to bend the stays. If I bend using a reference line along the stay to keep my stays in phase, will that line match up with one of the template lines? The bend reference line would be along the inside of the stay, so does that equal the 270 degree line (assuming 0 is the bottom of the stay)?

Thanks.


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

Jocko, 
The zero reference line represents the 'inside' of the angle in true shape and size orientation. I just checked my descriptive geometry diagrams that I used to develop the algorithm. If you lay a steel ruler on the assembled seat stays, just aft of the seat tube, then the steel ruler will touch EXACTLY at the 180 reference line. If you want to keep your seat stays a perfect straight line in bicycle side view then yes, that means you will be doing the bend at the tire (per the photo of that gold bike on the help screen) on the plane of the 90 / 270 degree orientation reference. In fact, I just looked at that help photo of that gold bike again. The two blue lines I have sketched on that photo represent the 180 degree reference line on the printouts. I will advise you.. You are ultimately responsible for how this whole thing comes out, and seat stays are expensive if you goof up. Consider the software as getting you to the ball park, dressed in the right uniform and up to bat. You've got to hit the ball yourself, when it comes to the final fit and caress.

I will take Jay's advise on this one. If you are not sure how it will work, purchase some cheap tubing for a trial run to see how it all will work for you. (3/8" conduit? straight gauge tubing from Aircraft Spruce?) You can use the tubing to prove out bending techniques.

Good luck, let us know how it works out (Take photos!)
--zip


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

zipzit said:


> I will take Jay's advise on this one. If you are not sure how it will work, purchase some cheap tubing for a trial run to see how it all will work for you. (3/8" conduit? straight gauge tubing from Aircraft Spruce?) You can use the tubing to prove out bending techniques.
> --zip


I thought this was worth repeating. I used 5/8" 4130 from Aircraft Spruce and figure I had about $3/test stay and think I used 5 before I had a perfect pair on #1. Then the True Temper stuff was done without any issues after that.


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## jocko (Apr 29, 2005)

zipzit said:


> Jocko,
> ..I will advise you.. You are ultimately responsible for how this whole thing comes out, and seat stays are expensive if you goof up. Consider the software as getting you to the ball park, dressed in the right uniform and up to bat. You've got to hit the ball yourself, when it comes to the final fit and caress.
> 
> I will take Jay's advise on this one. If you are not sure how it will work, purchase some cheap tubing for a trial run to see how it all will work for you. (3/8" conduit? straight gauge tubing from Aircraft Spruce?) You can use the tubing to prove out bending techniques.
> ...


Good baseball analogy! I'm using the template to get my miters close, I'm sure there will be lots of fine-tuning with a good 'ol file to get that perfect fit. From my test cuts it had looked like the 90/270 degree line matched up very closely to my bending reference line. Just wanted to make sure there was a method to that, and not just dumb luck. Thanks for the insight.


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

Well, its back... and improved! I've re-written the software, this time its in JavaScript, so it runs in your browser (Chrome / Firefox recommended!) Output is .pdf files. No more Java security nonsense. I've added a whole lot of enhancements.









I've been thinking about custom vehicle exhaust collectors lately, and wanted to play around with that stuff. I've got a lot of generic fab stuff tossed in the mix.









I'm not sure where this software will finally end up, for now its on my website.. Click here for the latest version of the tube notcher program. 

Do note, the software is in prototype, and it's possible (likely?) improvements are needed. Two things I've only played around with on paper only are elliptical tubes and tapered tubes. I think it's right, but I'm not positive. I would very much like to get your feedback, either here or via the tubenotcher website. Note the brief survey on the last tab.

Thanks to all for your feedback.

LB Corney
Las Vegas


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks for the update!


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Lee,

Thanks for the update! I've been saving old templates for a couple of projects "just in case" because it's been difficult to get it working on Lon's site.

This is excellent news that you're hosting it now too.

Jay


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

View attachment 1022926


Since it sounded like you were soliciting feedback, I'd suggest adding a calculator to figure out the "diagonal" distance across the down tube. (quote used since I'm not quite sure what you'd call that direction) Not terribly hard to calculate, but it'd be nice to just have it in once place.


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

Feldybikes said:


> I'd suggest adding a calculator to figure out the "diagonal" distance across the down tube. (quote used since I'm not quite sure what you'd call that direction) Not terribly hard to calculate, but it'd be nice to just have it in once place.


Feldybikes:

I'm lost. Not sure exactly what dimension you are looking for (and why you need that)? If I understand why, I can offer up some potential solutions. Can you explain? Or mark up a photo with Microsoft paint so I can understand it. If its helpful to you, I'm happy to add it to the software. thx.


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

Does that make sense?


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

I'm not sure any measurement I can provide will help you at all. My thought is you'd hold the down tube at the correct angle and centerline aim point, then rest a 6" straight edge (engineers scale) on the top of the tube.






​
Slide the straight edge up to the tapered head tube till it touches, then mark the touch point. Repeat for the bottom of the tube. You could also take a piece of paper roll it around the steel tube and slide that till the bottom touches, then cut paper away till the top touches. Frankly I thought the 6" engineers scale thing pretty easy.

An alternative is work out of plane. e.g. hold a very long uncut down tube in position 2" to the right of bicycle centerline, then stand to the right of the bike and eyeball the downtube to headtube intersection to determine the top and bottom touch points. Mark two touch points with a felt tip pen (or masking tape). Take out the vernier calipers and measure Outer Diameter (O.D.) in two places. I will calculate the distance between those two places.

The problem with providing that line for you is the chicken and the egg dilemma (which came first?) If you tell me the angle of the taper, then I can tell you what that red line is, which you can use to help me determine the angle of the taper. That just won't work.


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