# Pedal assist mountain bikes are becoming the majority.



## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

At least were I ride, which is a public bike park developed by local mountain biker's for years. There's no lift or shuttle, just bomb down and grind up. Over the past 4 or 5 months I've notice more and more pedal assist bikes. So much so, that the non-assist riders like myself are the few. I just ride the up's off to the side, because of all the PA's passing me constantly. I've talked to a number of them, and they admit that they would not be riding mountain bikes if they didn't have the pedal assists. It's what got them out there.
My friend I ride with regularly has one. He just waits for me at the top, but I wait for him at the bottom Do I think about getting one? Yes, but not in the near future. I would, and have always grinded out my rides for the work out and thrill of the down. I have ridden my friends PA both up and down a steep single track. What I noticed is it just plows down through rocks. You can feel the weight and momentum of the bike. My bike is so light, I don't feel the weight and momentum of the bike. In bigger rocky sections I have to get way back off my seat to put my bodies weight more behind the bike. On the PA I didn't feel I had to get way back because the weight of the bike just pushed through everything.
The jumps on the PA was just straight off and land. I'm used to hopping my bike into the air and crossing it up. I don't see any PA bikes doing anything other than going straight over gap jumps, level ups, or any other jumps.
My friend rides about 5 miles from his house and meets me at the bike park. We do a couple of loops (7 to 8 miles and 1,000 feet elevation on average) and I'm beat. He rides home another 5 miles. I'm dripping sweat, he's not.
Would I have more fun on a PA mtb? I don't know.... The jumps would not be as fun for sure...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

If they were legal here I'd have one already. Just counting the days...


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

I enjoy the climbing - i think that they are missing half of the skillset, challenge and fun. That being said I'm 50 and in a decade or two ill prob be on one. 

in all seriousness - 50% of my riding is for enjoyment the other 35% is for the health benefits and the other 15% is just to enjoy being n the peace and quiet of nature.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Bassmantweed said:


> I enjoy the climbing - i think that they are missing half of the skillset, challenge and fun.


Ride up using the same watts and get to the top much faster, same workout, more laps!


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Tall BMX'r said:


> My friend rides about 5 miles from his house and meets me at the bike park. We do a couple of loops (7 to 8 miles and 1,000 feet elevation on average) and I'm beat. He rides home another 5 miles.


Just think, if you weren't there he could get in an extra lap or two in the time he spends waiting for you to winch your analogue ass to the top!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Would I have more fun on a PA mtb? I don't know....


Probably, depending on the trail configuration, sightlines and incline you can climb 2 to 3 times faster than on your pedal bike. The ups start to become just as fun as the downs since you can ride berms uphill, take uphill jumps, etc.

If you and your buddy are both riding up the hills at the same speed, then you will probably cover more ground during your ride and dare I say with more time at full pedal speed you probably will break a sweat and get a workout. Part of the reason you buddy is getting less of a workout is all the time he spends waiting for you. 

One of my riding buddies got a Levo 2 months ago. We have done 2 rides together and he cruises with me so we can chat. I am huffing and puffing and out of breath and he is not winded at all. I rode that Levo the first time we rode together. I did a loop in our riding area that starts at a pinnacle, does a downhill into a small valley on single track and then climbs back up to the top on Single track and then double track to get to the top. On that ride I did a loop first on my regular bike, and then jumped on the Levo and did the same loop. Strava said i was twice as fast on the Levo for the entire run. Certain sections of the climb that are broken into individual strava segments had me at 3 times fast climbing, these were the double track sections will good sightlines where I could push myself pretty fast since I could see no other traffic was ahead. I documented it here:









Let's just own that Class 1 eBikes are more than...


Over the years there has been a lot of back and forth arguing about just how fast a Class 1 eBike can go and whether or not they are twice as fast as pedal bikes. I have ridden street based eBikes in the past and was blown away by how quick they are. Yesterday I finally had the chance to take...




www.mtbr.com





Pretty hilarious that even with the data I presented (small data pool yes I get that) some guys interpreted that as only being "slightly" faster........ oh well.

One thing I know for sure, I want one pretty bad. I would love to get out there with my buddy and power all over the preserve and cover twice the mileage in the same time. Most of the trails out there are either up or down, very little of it is flat ground.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

chiefsilverback said:


> Ride up using the same watts and get to the top much faster, same workout, more laps!


how does one use an ebike to get to the top of a mountain with the same workout as a regular bike without turning off motor?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Bassmantweed said:


> how does one use an ebike to get to the top of a mountain with the same workout as a regular bike without turning off motor?


you do it more than once.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

Klurejr said:


> you do it more than once.


guess I need to think outside the box!!

I just don’t think I would push myself as hard if I had a motor.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

It's not the amount of laps that counts, it's the quality of the laps you do.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Bassmantweed said:


> how does one use an ebike to get to the top of a mountain with the same workout as a regular bike without turning off motor?





Klurejr said:


> you do it more than once.


Just burn the same number of watts, same workout you'll just get to the top faster...


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## Lenny7 (Sep 1, 2008)

Bassmantweed said:


> enjoy being n the peace and quiet of nature.


So, you don't have Hope hubs?


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Face it. If you have an engine, you're not mountain biking. It's something else entirely.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

LOL. This will get good.

In another thread, we had people of note saying they hate climbing thus eBike as it's not a bother anymore. To me, that's akin to someone saying they like Road racing but hate cornering, pack riding and handling so they Zwift instead. Cool, cool. You do you but you basically wrote off 1/2 of the activity so let's just say you 'like' something different.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Bassmantweed said:


> guess I need to think outside the box!!
> 
> I just don’t think I would push myself as hard if I had a motor.


Have you ridden one? It is a weird feeling, cause the more you pedal the faster you go as soon as you stop pedaling it feels like letting off the clutch while in gear in a manual transmission car, so you are temped to never stop pedaling to keep the speed up. It is this bizarre cross between a mountain bike and a motorcycle.

Sure, you can pedal slowly and keep the bike in a mid-range gear and just put along to the top not exerting much energy at all, but if you feel the need for speed, you will be temped to pedal hard and put it in a small rear cog just for the thrill of it.

In the big picture, you get out of it what you put into it. If your goal is exercise and fitness you can turn down the assist and use more leg power, or turn it off and pedal a 50lb beast around, or you can turn it up to 11 and blast around as fast as possible and get a workout that way.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I might add that the YT Mill is less than a 10th of a mile from my local bike park. They demo bikes from there and most the locals are now riding the YT Decoys. You demo a bike, and get a draft beer on them after... Hard to resist. For me, their XXL is barely an XL. They do not make a bike I can ride. For those interested: YT Industries USA
I'd need a Levo S6 or Heckler XXL. $10k plus.. 
I see more and more YouTubers switching to PA bikes. Danny MacAskill is all in on his emtb these days as well.


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## blaklabl (Mar 14, 2011)

Klurejr said:


> Have you ridden one? It is a weird feeling, cause the more you pedal the faster you go as soon as you stop pedaling it feels like letting off the clutch while in gear in a manual transmission car, so you are temped to never stop pedaling to keep the speed up. It is this bizarre cross between a mountain bike and a motorcycle.
> 
> Sure, you can pedal slowly and keep the bike in a mid-range gear and just put along to the top not exerting much energy at all, but if you feel the need for speed, you will be temped to pedal hard and put it in a small rear cog just for the thrill of it.
> 
> In the big picture, you get out of it what you put into it. If your goal is exercise and fitness you can turn down the assist and use more leg power, or turn it off and pedal a 50lb beast around, or you can turn it up to 11 and blast around as fast as possible and get a workout that way.


I have had my Levo since last Saturday 3/05/22. I had the opportunity to ride one on a few occasions over the past couple of years and I knew I wanted one as soon as I left the parking lot, but I took my time and did my research before pulling the trigger to be sure.

I agree with the above sentiment. I have ridden every day since getting it, at least 20 miles, my average speed is way up, my elevation is way up, my per-ride distance is way up and I am burning a ton of calories - equal to what I'd be doing on my regular bike, except that would be half the mileage, half the elevation, and 5mph average less per ride. And at 47, I can't ride 15+ miles a day on a regular bike and enjoy it nor can my legs take it. And I love riding - this is year 35 of it for me.

Sometimes it takes an innovation such as this to reinvigorate ones' love for trail riding. Note I didn't say mountain biking - because I also agree it's a different "sport". But, it's more fun that I have had on a bike in at least the last 12 years since I stopped riding DH regularly - and it's keeping me engaged. I just find the key is not to be a dick, don't blow people off the trail, and certainly not on an uphill - and only ride them where permitted. I am a very conscientious rider as it is and usually give the right of way to most people (that aren't being dicks), so I just do more of that on the eMTB. And all in all, I haven't had a bad interaction with another rider yet but I'm sure its only a matter of time.

Oh yeah - and I have put 100 miles on it this week alone, after work when I am usually looking for an excuse NOT to go for a ride. YMMV.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

Klurejr said:


> Have you ridden one? It is a weird feeling, cause the more you pedal the faster you go as soon as you stop pedaling it feels like letting off the clutch while in gear in a manual transmission car, so you are temped to never stop pedaling to keep the speed up. It is this bizarre cross between a mountain bike and a motorcycle.
> 
> Sure, you can pedal slowly and keep the bike in a mid-range gear and just put along to the top not exerting much energy at all, but if you feel the need for speed, you will be temped to pedal hard and put it in a small rear cog just for the thrill of it.
> 
> In the big picture, you get out of it what you put into it. If your goal is exercise and fitness you can turn down the assist and use more leg power, or turn it off and pedal a 50lb beast around, or you can turn it up to 11 and blast around as fast as possible and get a workout that way.


to be fair, I have not.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Tall BMX'r said:


> At least were I ride, which is a public bike park developed by local mountain biker's for years. There's no lift or shuttle, just bomb down and grind up. Over the past 4 or 5 months I've notice more and more pedal assist bikes. So much so, that the non-assist riders like myself are the few. I just ride the up's off to the side, because of all the PA's passing me constantly. I've talked to a number of them, and they admit that they would not be riding mountain bikes if they didn't have the pedal assists. It's what got them out there.
> My friend I ride with regularly has one. He just waits for me at the top, but I wait for him at the bottom Do I think about getting one? Yes, but not in the near future. I would, and have always grinded out my rides for the work out and thrill of the down. I have ridden my friends PA both up and down a steep single track. What I noticed is it just plows down through rocks. You can feel the weight and momentum of the bike. My bike is so light, I don't feel the weight and momentum of the bike. In bigger rocky sections I have to get way back off my seat to put my bodies weight more behind the bike. On the PA I didn't feel I had to get way back because the weight of the bike just pushed through everything.
> The jumps on the PA was just straight off and land. I'm used to hopping my bike into the air and crossing it up. I don't see any PA bikes doing anything other than going straight over gap jumps, level ups, or any other jumps.
> My friend rides about 5 miles from his house and meets me at the bike park. We do a couple of loops (7 to 8 miles and 1,000 feet elevation on average) and I'm beat. He rides home another 5 miles. I'm dripping sweat, he's not.
> Would I have more fun on a PA mtb? I don't know.... The jumps would not be as fun for sure...


Thanks for not making your post a big rant about ebikes. You seem more respectful toward ebikers and validated your need to stay on regular bikes (for now). I definitely understand both ends of the cycling spectrum when it comes pedal assist and regular bikes. Here in WA, if you have a handicap placard, you can ride on any trail system that allows regular bikes. That law was passed last summer. I'm going to talk with my doc about getting a placard. I need one anyways. My mobility is just terrible and I'm always in pain.

I've been on my ebike for roughly 2 months. Maybe it's just me but I still sweat a ton when riding. The best thing I love about my ebike is that my HR is 20 bpm lower than usual. That's a big game changer for me because I was always in Zone 5 HR and entering anaerobic state on a regular bike. It didn't matter what my pace was or if I was climbing, descending, or flat ground pedaling. I keep my HR in check because my breathing can become rather shallow when I am riding anaerobic for far too long.


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## rtonthat (11 mo ago)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Danny MacAskill is all in on his emtb these days as well.


Ya well I heard from a credible source they are holding his family hostage or something to make those videos. You can see it in his eyes…..


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

rtonthat said:


> Ya well I heard from a credible source they are holding his family hostage or something to make those videos. You can see it in his eyes…..


You mean stuffing his pockets with cash$$$$$$$. Tis then?


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Class 1 ebikes are illegal at almost anywhere I’d want to ride near me. Meaning, there is only 1 place worth riding within a ~2hr drive (one way) of my home where they are legal. Not that that prevents others from riding them on other trails around here, but its enough of a reason that for me I haven't even considered one. Primarily because they've been a frequent point of contention at my local trail system (judging from comments I've seen while attending the city council/public comment meetings about the park).

If they become legal around here, I'll have to demo one, and then see how I feel about it. The barriers I can think of are of course price, and "does it feel like a mountain bike".

My only time on an ebike was a cheapo hub drive one a co-worker let me pedal around the parking garage one day. It felt weird, how any bit of pedaling would make the bike "take off". But I'm sure some of that is because it was a cheaper bike.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Bassmantweed said:


> how does one use an ebike to get to the top of a mountain with the same workout as a regular bike without turning off motor?


simple. push the pedals as hard as you can for the same duration. speed is irrelevant...


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

I demoed a Taser last weekend in Sedona. I have been riding mountain bikes since 1986 and although I haven't ever seriously considered an E Bike for myself I will say that it was an awful lot of fun, definitely put a smile on my face the entire time. I won't say that I was out to win any KOMs but I did push just a little on one section. All of a sudden I am top 10 again










I do want to apologize if I bumped anyone out of the top 10. Here are both laps that I did that day, E Bike vs another Demo that I wasn't real jazzed on 










I will also say that I disagree that E Bikes should not be on regular trails. I have a friend, life long mountain biker who has probably logged more miles that most on these forums. Diagnosed with MS about 2 years ago. The E Bike has kept him outside and active.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

milehi said:


> Face it. If you have an engine, you're not mountain biking. It's something else entirely.


technically an engine works off combustion. so when you're burning an actual fuel, of course it isn't a bicycle. we appreciate your PSA though...


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## Noplacelikeloam (Mar 2, 2021)

AKamp said:


> I demoed a Taser last weekend in Sedona. I have been riding mountain bikes since 1986 and although I haven't ever seriously considered an E Bike for myself I will say that it was an awful lot of fun, definitely put a smile on my face the entire time. I won't say that I was out to win any KOMs but I did push just a little on one section. All of a sudden I am top 10 again
> 
> View attachment 1974182
> 
> ...


I hope you flagged that ride as an e-bike ride? Strava leaderboards and KOM's are a complete waste of time these days with ebikers adding in runs. I hope these platforms build in some sort of AI that recognizes a 50% increase in speed over a short period is erm, not entirely you.


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## Noplacelikeloam (Mar 2, 2021)

Tall BMX'r said:


> At least were I ride, which is a public bike park developed by local mountain biker's for years. There's no lift or shuttle, just bomb down and grind up. Over the past 4 or 5 months I've notice more and more pedal assist bikes. So much so, that the non-assist riders like myself are the few. I just ride the up's off to the side, because of all the PA's passing me constantly. I've talked to a number of them, and they admit that they would not be riding mountain bikes if they didn't have the pedal assists. It's what got them out there.
> My friend I ride with regularly has one. He just waits for me at the top, but I wait for him at the bottom Do I think about getting one? Yes, but not in the near future. I would, and have always grinded out my rides for the work out and thrill of the down. I have ridden my friends PA both up and down a steep single track. What I noticed is it just plows down through rocks. You can feel the weight and momentum of the bike. My bike is so light, I don't feel the weight and momentum of the bike. In bigger rocky sections I have to get way back off my seat to put my bodies weight more behind the bike. On the PA I didn't feel I had to get way back because the weight of the bike just pushed through everything.
> The jumps on the PA was just straight off and land. I'm used to hopping my bike into the air and crossing it up. I don't see any PA bikes doing anything other than going straight over gap jumps, level ups, or any other jumps.
> My friend rides about 5 miles from his house and meets me at the bike park. We do a couple of loops (7 to 8 miles and 1,000 feet elevation on average) and I'm beat. He rides home another 5 miles. I'm dripping sweat, he's not.
> Would I have more fun on a PA mtb? I don't know.... The jumps would not be as fun for sure...


I have an ebike and an enduro bike. The ebike is just a completely different experience and somewhat different skillset. IMHO, one isnt better than the other but dont kid yourself that a blast on your ebike is the same as riding an MTB in the traditional sense. So it depends on what you want to get out of it. If you have the luxury of having both, do that. On a cold miserable day or when you just arent feeling it, an ebike is awesome. But a sunny summer day, my ebike gathers dust. No frickin way am I giving up the feeling of accomplishment I get from putting in the effort.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

ocnLogan said:


> Class 1 ebikes are illegal at almost anywhere I’d want to ride near me. Meaning, there is only 1 place worth riding within a ~2hr drive (one way) of my home where they are legal. Not that that prevents others from riding them on other trails around here, but its enough of a reason that for me I haven't even considered one. Primarily because they've been a frequent point of contention at my local trail system (judging from comments I've seen while attending the city council/public comment meetings about the park).
> 
> If they become legal around here, I'll have to demo one, and then see how I feel about it. The barriers I can think of are of course price, and "does it feel like a mountain bike".
> 
> My only time on an ebike was a cheapo hub drive one a co-worker let me pedal around the parking garage one day. It felt weird, how any bit of pedaling would make the bike "take off". But I'm sure some of that is because it was a cheaper bike.


I've ridden both kinds. The hub motors feel faster, and some even have thumb throttles. There's a guy with a home made E-commuter bike that can do over 50 mph! He's always hauling a..ss with Led Zepplin or Van Halen cranked on his personal mini boom box The emtb's feel like you are on a mountain bike pedaling up hill if you are in a lower power or eco modes. Put it into max power mode and it's like you are being pushed up hill and your legs are just going around. I see people riding up hill in 6th or 7th gear. I ask them, wouldn't it save the battery if you climbed in a lower gear? They just look at me like they don't understand the question.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

rtonthat said:


> Ya well I heard from a credible source they are holding his family hostage or something to make those videos. You can see it in his eyes…..


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

ebikes are permitted on the twin-track forest service roads nearby but I have a feeling that if I got one and kept to the jeep roads I'd want a more powerful e-dirt bike before long. They cost about the same, the last time I looked.

I have been on a few dirt bike single tracks around the area and they could be nice but I'd want to build some jumps and features. Right now the ones I've been on are just single track through the woods.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

milehi said:


> Face it. If you have an engine, you're not mountain biking. It's something else entirely.


i tend to agree and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. It’s just a different type of riding. Just like road cycling, bmx, and unicycles are not mountain biking. Just don’t quite know what to call it? Maybe electric mtb.


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## mrdimi (Oct 26, 2020)

Bassmantweed said:


> I enjoy the climbing - i think that they are missing half of the skillset, challenge and fun. That being said I'm 50 and in a decade or two ill prob be on one.
> 
> in all seriousness - 50% of my riding is for enjoyment the other 35% is for the health benefits and the other 15% is just to enjoy being n the peace and quiet of nature.


As a 52 year old, I'm guessing my next bike will be a pedal assist one once I've ridden my Optic into the ground. By then I'm hoping battery technology has improved enough to make those suckers lighter.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

AKamp said:


> I demoed a Taser last weekend in Sedona. I have been riding mountain bikes since 1986 and although I haven't ever seriously considered an E Bike for myself I will say that it was an awful lot of fun, definitely put a smile on my face the entire time. I won't say that I was out to win any KOMs but I did push just a little on one section. All of a sudden I am top 10 again
> 
> View attachment 1974182
> 
> ...


Did you mark that you were on an ebike or are you making as if you got top 10 legitimately? Cuz that's not awesome.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Bassmantweed said:


> .. Just like road cycling, bmx, and unicycles are not mountain biking...


he doesn't do any of those either. he's strictly a mountain bike purist...


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## JK-47 (Apr 22, 2021)

I'm glad the rangers at Aliso turn e-bikes away on the weekends, it's already quite crowded with hikers, and regular bikes.


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## jrhone (May 23, 2011)

I ride for exercise mainly and then for fun. Im 52 and ride a hardtail. I imagine my next bike will be a full suspension (in 4 or 5 years) and then an ebike (maybe 10 tears?). Part of my enjoyment is based on the achievement of getting to the top on my own power. If i want motored off-roading , why not ride motocross?


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

Well now in case anyone got their panties in a bundle I wouldn't say I was trying to keep it a secret that I was on an E Bike, especially since I posted it here. Jesus, did no one notice the little winky face?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

AKamp said:


> I demoed a Taser last weekend in Sedona. I have been riding mountain bikes since 1986 and although I haven't ever seriously considered an E Bike for myself I will say that it was an awful lot of fun, definitely put a smile on my face the entire time. I won't say that I was out to win any KOMs but I did push just a little on one section. All of a sudden I am top 10 again
> 
> View attachment 1974182
> 
> ...




Hopefully you'll delete that ride.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> Hopefully you'll delete that ride.


pretty obvious that all of those are e-bike times. nobody cares anyway...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> pretty obvious that all of those are e-bike times. nobody cares anyway...



Really? Or are you just joking? Hard to tell around here.

Some care. The right thing to do would be to delete the ride but I realize a lot of people don't give a $hit about doing what's right. No biggie either way I admit.


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## blaklabl (Mar 14, 2011)

AKamp said:


> I demoed a Taser last weekend in Sedona. I have been riding mountain bikes since 1986 and although I haven't ever seriously considered an E Bike for myself I will say that it was an awful lot of fun, definitely put a smile on my face the entire time. I won't say that I was out to win any KOMs but I did push just a little on one section. All of a sudden I am top 10 again
> 
> View attachment 1974182
> 
> ...


Just curious, they were ok with eBikes at the Sedona Festival? I would have thought that was a no-go based on everything I know about the locals there. Such hate. Where were you allowed to demo them? Genuinely curious, I only live about an hour south and would love to go up and ride, but figured the drama wouldn’t be worth it.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> Really? Or are you just joking? Hard to tell around here.
> 
> Some care. The right thing to do would be to delete the ride but I realize a lot of people don't give a $hit about doing what's right. No biggie either way I admit.


i have no idea about those times. i was just being facetious. i was dead serious about not caring though..


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## fredman1085 (10 mo ago)

Tall BMX'r said:


> At least were I ride, which is a public bike park developed by local mountain biker's for years. There's no lift or shuttle, just bomb down and grind up. Over the past 4 or 5 months I've notice more and more pedal assist bikes. So much so, that the non-assist riders like myself are the few. I just ride the up's off to the side, because of all the PA's passing me constantly. I've talked to a number of them, and they admit that they would not be riding mountain bikes if they didn't have the pedal assists. It's what got them out there.
> My friend I ride with regularly has one. He just waits for me at the top, but I wait for him at the bottom Do I think about getting one? Yes, but not in the near future. I would, and have always grinded out my rides for the work out and thrill of the down. I have ridden my friends PA both up and down a steep single track. What I noticed is it just plows down through rocks. You can feel the weight and momentum of the bike. My bike is so light, I don't feel the weight and momentum of the bike. In bigger rocky sections I have to get way back off my seat to put my bodies weight more behind the bike. On the PA I didn't feel I had to get way back because the weight of the bike just pushed through everything.
> The jumps on the PA was just straight off and land. I'm used to hopping my bike into the air and crossing it up. I don't see any PA bikes doing anything other than going straight over gap jumps, level ups, or any other jumps.
> My friend rides about 5 miles from his house and meets me at the bike park. We do a couple of loops (7 to 8 miles and 1,000 feet elevation on average) and I'm beat. He rides home another 5 miles. I'm dripping sweat, he's not.
> Would I have more fun on a PA mtb? I don't know.... The jumps would not be as fun for sure...


I got one just so I could keep up with my son on the climbs. Now I find the wonder people at Mid-Pen don't allow e-bikes. I'm very-very disappointed but not surprised by that ignorant group. MTB riders have been struggling with them at least since the 90's.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> i have no idea about those times. i was just being facetious. i was dead serious about not caring though..


The people in places 7-10 might care.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Nat said:


> The people in places 7-10 might care.


they should have spent some extra money on a higher discharge battery then...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> i was dead serious about not caring though..



Never a doubt about that. However you are not everyone.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

how dare you!


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## rtonthat (11 mo ago)

JK-47 said:


> I'm glad the rangers at Aliso turn e-bikes away on the weekends, it's already quite crowded with hikers, and regular bikes.


Really? I didnt know that, seen plenty there. I know they’re allowed (or not enforced) at other OC parks.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

They were demoing e bikes, Intense, Specialized had them and I am assuming maybe another brand or two. It was later in the ride we ran into a guy that told us they weren't allowed on that trail but nothing was said to us at the time that we got it so I was a little surprised. I do think you are correct though in that they are frowned upon if everyone acted the same way as the one guy we ran into. 

Over the weekend we demoed a Spot Mayhem, Eskar Japhy, Pivot Mach 4 SL, Rocky Mountain Element, Intense Tazer and something else that must not have been too memorable. I liked the Pivot the most, nice and quick.

While blistering fast I don't think at least both the top two were on e bikes. Cal Skilsky is simply fast AF.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Tall BMX'r said:


> My friend rides about 5 miles from his house and meets me at the bike park. We do a couple of loops (7 to 8 miles and 1,000 feet elevation on average) and I'm beat. He rides home another 5 miles. I'm dripping sweat, he's not.


Do you have to load up your bike and drive to the park? It seems like your friend can simply don his helmet and ride out of his garage. To me that is a big plus - especially when gas $5/gallon etc


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## OzIbis (Apr 27, 2020)

ocnLogan said:


> Class 1 ebikes are illegal at almost anywhere I’d want to ride near me. Meaning, there is only 1 place worth riding within a ~2hr drive (one way) of my home where they are legal. Not that that prevents others from riding them on other trails around here, but its enough of a reason that for me I haven't even considered one. Primarily because they've been a frequent point of contention at my local trail system (judging from comments I've seen while attending the city council/public comment meetings about the park).
> 
> If they become legal around here, I'll have to demo one, and then see how I feel about it. The barriers I can think of are of course price, and "does it feel like a mountain bike".
> 
> My only time on an ebike was a cheapo hub drive one a co-worker let me pedal around the parking garage one day. It felt weird, how any bit of pedaling would make the bike "take off". But I'm sure some of that is because it was a cheaper bike.


I don’t have an e-bike and don’t plan to in the immediate future but I can see that at some stage when I’m a little older I will probably be looking that way. 
The thing that concerns me is I come from a Moto riding background and here in Oz so many places have been gated up and closed off to Moto riders even when you have a licence and the bike is registered for road use. It’s just easier for them close somewhere down than to police illegal users, no license etc, and consult with responsible land users who just love to ride and love being out in the bush. 
So as e-bikes become more popular and more powerful there is a certain amount of crossover between a Moto and an e-bike. The advantage the e-bike has over a Moto is the lack of noise but noise hasn’t been the only issue for Moto’s being shut out of areas over here because a lot of those areas aren’t near residential areas where noise is an issue. They pull out bullshit arguments about erosion and damage to the environment etc but I’ve walked some of the trails I used to ride my Moto on and the amount of lantana that has overrun the natural bush and the amount channels cut into the tracks from water cutting through what are now unused tracks is astonishing. Honestly the tracks were in a FAR better state when we were using them and maintaining them. They don’t care though. They just shut stuff down. I can see a point where the finger is going to start being pointed at e-bikes because they are powered by a motor. So once areas start to get rules put into place restricting e-bikes, which I believe will start to happen more and more based on my previous experiences, I’m concerned that if I bought a very expensive e-bike that it’s going to be worth stuff all if you can’t use it in local trail systems. 
I hope like hell that doesn’t happen but I’m fearful. If and when it does start to happen **** flows downhill so analog bikes will at some point also be in the gun sights. We have too many closed minded tree huggers influencing decision makers or getting into positions of power. Like a said I love the bush and getting out into nature away from the hustle and bustle of everyday life the last thing I want to do is damage it. I think restricting access to areas for certain legitimate user groups means that group loses interest in that area which is counterintuitive because if people care for something they will generally look after it. Of course there will always be the dickhead element involved in any activity but on the whole the vast majority of people have good intentions. 
Like I said I’m hope I’m wrong but this is the way I see things going down into the future.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

I ride for


Bassmantweed said:


> I enjoy the climbing - i think that they are missing half of the skillset, challenge and fun. That being said I'm 50 and in a decade or two ill prob be on one.
> 
> in all seriousness - 50% of my riding is for enjoyment the other 35% is for the health benefits and the other 15% is just to enjoy being n the peace and quiet of nature.


My motives for riding are similar. I ride for the workout, the challenge, and sense of accomplishment. At age 66, I do realize I might need a battery in another decade but will ride as long as possible.

I‘ve owned motorcycles and now they’re being powered with batteries instead of gas. I struggle to think of an eBike as a bicycle. It seems like calling an airplane a gas-powered glider.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Jack7782 said:


> Do you have to load up your bike and drive to the park? It seems like your friend can simply don his helmet and ride out of his garage. To me that is a big plus - especially when gas $5/gallon etc


I could ride there and mostly on dirt, but it would take me probably 45 min. and about 1,200 feet elevation just one way. There are some big hills where I live. It's less than a 10 minutes to drive. It gives me a reason to drive my old Ford truck that just sits in the driveway unused. V10... I put 3,400 miles on it last year. I work from home, so not much driving.


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## natas1321 (Nov 4, 2017)

PA mtb's are not my thing, tried it and didn't care for it but ask me again in ten years. I'm in my mid 50's and enjoy climbing and earning my rides down the mountain. I prefer rocky, rooty, chunky and technical trails but they are not for everyone either and this my change years from now as well. 

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Dkayak said:


> I ride for
> 
> My motives for riding are similar. I ride for the workout, the challenge, and sense of accomplishment. At age 66, I do realize I might need a battery in another decade but will ride as long as possible.
> 
> I‘ve owned motorcycles and now they’re being powered with batteries instead of gas. I struggle to think of an eBike as a bicycle. It seems like calling an airplane a gas-powered glider.


Then don’t even try to think of the ebike as a bicycle. There’s no reason to think of the ebike as a bicycle because it’s not a bicycle -- it’s an ebike.

I have all three — bicycles (several), an ebike and an off-road motorcycle.
Three different sports.
Three different machines.
All fun.
No confusion.

A bicycle is a human powered conveyance. 
=sParty


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

Noplacelikeloam said:


> I hope you flagged that ride as an e-bike ride? Strava leaderboards and KOM's are a complete waste of time these days with ebikers adding in runs. I hope these platforms build in some sort of AI that recognizes a 50% increase in speed over a short period is erm, not entirely you.


Strava has asked me if i was on an ebike after the ride a few times over the past year or so. I wasn’t sure if i should be insulted or flattered. (I wasn’t on an ebike) Really, I didn’t care but it was an interesting phenomenon.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

mrdimi said:


> As a 52 year old, I'm guessing my next bike will be a pedal assist one once I've ridden my Optic into the ground. By then I'm hoping battery technology has improved enough to make those suckers lighter.


And less rattle-y. I would also say standardized but this is the bike industry, and we all know what they think standards are.


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## Noplacelikeloam (Mar 2, 2021)

Monty219 said:


> Strava has asked me if i was on an ebike after the ride a few times over the past year or so. I wasn’t sure if i should be insulted or flattered. (I wasn’t on an ebike) Really, I didn’t care but it was an interesting phenomenon.


Ha, that's awesome!


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## jrhone (May 23, 2011)

rtonthat said:


> Really? I didnt know that, seen plenty there. I know they’re allowed (or not enforced) at other OC parks.


It says it quite clearly many places. Ebikes not allowed.


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## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

blaklabl said:


> I have had my Levo since last Saturday 3/05/22. I had the opportunity to ride one on a few occasions over the past couple of years and I knew I wanted one as soon as I left the parking lot, but I took my time and did my research before pulling the trigger to be sure.
> 
> I agree with the above sentiment. I have ridden every day since getting it, at least 20 miles, my average speed is way up, my elevation is way up, my per-ride distance is way up and I am burning a ton of calories - equal to what I'd be doing on my regular bike, except that would be half the mileage, half the elevation, and 5mph average less per ride. And at 47, I can't ride 15+ miles a day on a regular bike and enjoy it nor can my legs take it. And I love riding - this is year 35 of it for me.
> 
> ...


I'm not an e-bike guy, but I'm 54 and I could see myself on one in 10-15 years, but until then I am a self powered hardtail fanatic..... Hard men ride hardtails.

I quoted this post because it's the 1st one that I have read that has made me think twice on by bias against motorized mountain bikes. Very well said.


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## rtonthat (11 mo ago)

jrhone said:


> It says it quite clearly many places. Ebikes not allowed.


I dont have an ebike so never paid attention to the signs. I may consider getting one down the line when or if it becomes widely accepted on the trails. In the meantime, Im more than happy sweatin up the climbs. I have nothing against them, just think they are unnecessary while Im still able to grind.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Just want to say thanks to all that posted for keeping this thread for the most part very respectable! 
Ebikes are a blast going up or downhill👍🏼 You can easily get a very similar cardio workout as compared to a regular bike, but leg power wise not quite the same. For many people, that’s fine👍🏼


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## jackshack (May 11, 2011)

Just read through the pages and this thread reminds me of the iPhone VS Android battles. I own both types of bikes and I see the value in both - just like the phones but I end up riding the one that I enjoy more, which has been the emtb. I used to get that"accomplish" feeling mentioned here regarding going up hills but now I get the excitement feeling going up. It's just a completely different experience. I get the feeling that most emtb haters think that ALL emtb riders set their bikes to full power and just blast everywhere they go, which some may very well do, but I find that I'm always trying to keep the assist at a level that will keep my ride fun but also keeps it a workout and still a challenge. At 54 I am very thankful that I can afford one and since I was never allowed to own a dirt bike as a kid I am fulfilling my dream of having a sortof dirtbike that I can ride as a bike or throw it in full power mode AND I can ride it anywhere in my area of the country without drawing attention to myself. I don't get out west too often but I don't understand why these would be illegal on the trails. Mine is very quiet and looks very much like a regular mtb.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

milehi said:


> Face it. If you have an engine, you're not mountain biking. It's something else entirely.


What do you call it when you're going downhill, powered by gravity?


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Pedal assist mountain bikes are becoming the majority.


Does that mean a glut of killer non-assisted bikes are about to flood the market at fire-sale prices? No? Then I don't care until that happens.


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## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

What's so bad with going slower? All of this, "I need an ebike when I'm older." I say this as someone that has always been into adrenaline sports. I realize at some point in the not-to-distant future my power output will decrease and I won't be climbing at the same pace or covering the same amount of ground. Oh well, I won't be able to lift as much either, but I'm not going to lift weights with a mechanical exo-skeleton.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

jimglassford said:


> Where do we draw the line?


Line is being drawn for you - class 1 EMTB. You have the option to vary motor assistance to suit your needs etc.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

Jack7782 said:


> Line is being drawn for you - class 1 EMTB. You have the option to vary motor assistance to suit your needs etc.


Prohibited in public parks here, where the line is human powered.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Tall BMX'r said:


> $10k plus..


Honestly, this is the sole reason I don't own one. I could see using a road or gravel one as a "commuter" and justify my purchase, but something like a Decoy/Levo/Rail/Rise...I just can't afford that kind of thing for limited usage. Especially, bc it will effectively cut the riding time on my already expensive MTB in 1/2 (or so). Maybe as they mature and tech gets better, they'll be some lower cost options...until then, I'm on the sidelines.,,I really like the look of the Rise though! Hmmmmmmm.....


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

smartyiak said:


> Honestly, this is the sole reason I don't own one. I could see using a road or gravel one as a "commuter" and justify my purchase, but something like a Decoy/Levo/Rail/Rise...I just can't afford that kind of thing for limited usage. Especially, bc it will effectively cut the riding time on my already expensive MTB in 1/2 (or so). Maybe as they mature and tech gets better, they'll be some lower cost options...until then, I'm on the sidelines.,,I really like the look of the Rise though! Hmmmmmmm.....


My wife is a strong rider, doubling the cost and storage space required. A $100 helmet is $200, $150 shoes are $300, $3000 fat bike is $6000, and we have 8 bikes in the garage. It’s a blessing for sure but the cost is double for everything but the Thule bike rack. If/when they’re ever allowed around here, it would be a $20,000+ niche purchase. Fatty’s are a niche too, but more reasonably priced. They expand our riding days rather than cutting into usage of our other bikes.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

rtonthat said:


> I dont have an ebike so never paid attention to the signs. I may consider getting one down the line when or if it becomes widely accepted on the trails. In the meantime, Im more than happy sweatin up the climbs. I have nothing against them, just think they are unnecessary while Im still able to grind.


Sorry but this is such a huge pet peeve. You say you didn't notice the signs because they didn't apply to you. How do you know if you didn't read them. So many people using trail systems and camping areas who ignore all of the signs or can't be bothered to read them. Then they get pissed when you call them out on their ignorance.

Don't get angry, read the signs.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## jackshack (May 11, 2011)

goldsbar said:


> What's so bad with going slower? All of this, "I need an ebike when I'm older." I say this as someone that has always been into adrenaline sports. I realize at some point in the not-to-distant future my power output will decrease and I won't be climbing at the same pace or covering the same amount of ground. Oh well, I won't be able to lift as much either, but I'm not going to lift weights with a mechanical exo-skeleton.


Hey my fellow rider, I hear what you are saying but I'm thinking most don't lift weights because it's fun. Being on two wheels is fun and one of the fringe benefits is keeping ourselves in better condition than if we sat by the pool or TV all day. For those who haven't experienced a decent assist bike like a Levo or Rail, you might be surprised at your own reaction to how much fun and different it can make your local ride. The cost? That's a whole different argument.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Dkayak said:


> My wife is a strong rider, doubling the cost and storage space required. A $100 helmet is $200, $150 shoes are $300, $3000 fat bike is $6000, and we have 8 bikes in the garage. It’s a blessing for sure but the cost is double for everything but the Thule bike rack. If/when they’re ever allowed around here, it would be a $20,000+ niche purchase. Fatty’s are a niche too, but more reasonably priced. They expand our riding days rather than cutting into usage of our other bikes.


I feel you. Try having 5 kids who all love biking. I just picked up a bike for kid #4 and a bike for myself (first in 4+ years). They were both previously rentals at the LBS. In great condition. I added upgrades to mine. I'm now $13k poorer. Bikes and gear are important to us so we make it work but damn. There are 25 bikes at my house. 9 sets of carbon wheels. I need to stop typing this...

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

jackshack said:


> Hey my fellow rider, I hear what you are saying but I'm thinking most don't lift weights because it's fun. Being on two wheels is fun and one of the fringe benefits is keeping ourselves in better condition than if we sat by the pool or TV all day. For those who haven't experienced a decent assist bike like a Levo or Rail, you might be surprised at your own reaction to how much fun and different it can make your local ride. The cost? That's a whole different argument.


Of course they're fun. They make you go fast with less effort. So does a dirt bike. Or a sxs. 

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## jackshack (May 11, 2011)

Silentfoe said:


> Of course they're fun. They make you go fast with less effort. So does a dirt bike. Or a sxs.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


It's like you want to start a keyboard fight here. I'm not sure why you would compare a pedal assist bike with a 4x4 SXS or a dirt bike. I thought we were just talking about the difference in emtb and mtb.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

RickBullottaPA said:


> What do you call it when you're going downhill, powered by gravity?


When I’m riding my ebike downhill — even with the motor off — I call it riding a very heavy bike*.
Heavier than my mountain bike, not as heavy as my dirt bike.
=sParty

*For the sake of clarity, I call any two-wheeled conveyance a ‘bike,’ including my Honda dirt bike. But a bicycle is a human powered two-wheeled conveyance. Not saying everyone agrees with my terminology, just explaining mine FWIW.


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## rtonthat (11 mo ago)

Silentfoe said:


> Sorry but this is such a huge pet peeve. You say you didn't notice the signs because they didn't apply to you. How do you know if you didn't read them. So many people using trail systems and camping areas who ignore all of the signs or can't be bothered to read them. Then they get pissed when you call them out on their ignorance.
> 
> Don't get angry, read the signs.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


Im not angry. Nothing is serious enough to make me angry, especially when it comes to mtbing.

its not my local trail, Ive been theres a few times. Im on a pedal bike, which I know is allowed so therefore do not look for signs to confirm that. When Im there, Im at the back of the group so I tend to follow the rider in front of me. I know my trail etiquette and follow them. I also know the trail names (Rockit, Lynx, Cholla, etc). What other signs should I be paying attention to?


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

jackshack said:


> View attachment 1974257


FWIW, 3 of these have motors and one doesn't. It really is that easy. Despite the visual similarities, that motor is the material difference.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> Of course they're fun. They make you go fast with less effort. So does a dirt bike. Or a sxs.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


Maybe you're not riding dirt bikes properly??? When I use to ride dirt bikes, I would come home 5 to 10lbs lighter then when I started and be beat to hell. Honestly this thought of you don't get a work out riding an ebike or a dirt bike is just comical when someone brings it up! Yes, it's not as grueling on your legs, but it still a dam good work out.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Carl Mega said:


> FWIW, 3 of these have motors and one doesn't. It really is that easy. Despite the visual similarities, that motor is the material difference.


You got a 4-wheeled bicycle, Carl?
=sParty


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Sparticus said:


> You got a 4-wheeled bicycle, Carl?
> =sParty




In my humble opinion a motor-less 4 wheeled quadricycle has more in common with a bicycle than an ebike.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Sparticus said:


> You got a 4-wheeled bicycle, Carl?
> =sParty


Of course not, by definition that is impossible. That whole "but look at this...." line of argument is pointless, it is too loosey goosey. One has 4 wheels, one had electric motor, 2 have ICE, 2 have pedals, etc. So I get your point. 

You know from my other posts that I agree with you. Ebikes are unique. They deserve their own category. They are not bikes, they are not motorcycles. They share qualities of both and some unique to just themselves.

Edit: just to qualify my view, I believe there is material difference in the activity (and categorization) when the propulsion relegated to or augmented by a motor.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

BadgerOne said:


> Does that mean a glut of killer non-assisted bikes are about to flood the market at fire-sale prices? No? Then I don't care until that happens.


You are not far off. I've already seen bikes for sale on CL where they mention their reason for selling an almost brand new mtb is they bought an emtb. One mentioned they were switching because their friends were all riding emtbs now. I don't think the market will flood with used mtbs. A good percentage of the emtb riders I talk to are basically new to riding trails, and wouldn't be riding if it wasn't for the advent of the pedal assist. Like any sport, people will jump on a trend, but won't stay with it, and bike, exercise machine or surf board will just collect dust in their garage...


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Tall BMX'r said:


> You are not far off. I've already seen bikes for sale on CL where they mention their reason for selling an almost brand new mtb is they bought an emtb. One mentioned they were switching because their friends were all riding emtbs now. I don't think the market will flood with used mtbs. A good percentage of the emtb riders I talk to are basically new to riding trails, and wouldn't be riding if it wasn't for the advent of the pedal assist. Like any sport, people will jump on a trend, but won't stay with it, and bike, exercise machine or surf board will just collect dust in their garage...


I was the 1st in my group to get an ebike and just about everyone in my group now has an ebike. 2 yrs ago, I would hardly see any ebikes. Now when I go out, I see almost as many ebikes as I do mountain bikes. Most comments I get get are "I can't wait to get me an ebike".


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Sparticus said:


> When I’m riding my ebike downhill — even with the motor off — I call it riding a very heavy bike*.
> Heavier than my mountain bike, not as heavy as my dirt bike.
> =sParty
> 
> *For the sake of clarity, I call any two-wheeled conveyance a ‘bike,’ including my Honda dirt bike. But a bicycle is a human powered two-wheeled conveyance. Not saying everyone agrees with my terminology, just explaining mine FWIW.


Truth! Thankfully the newer eMTB designs aren't as nose heavy as the early generation. I almost augered in a few times because of that.


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## fredman1085 (10 mo ago)

D Bone said:


> I'm not an e-bike guy, but I'm 54 and I could see myself on one in 10-15 years, but until then I am a self powered hardtail fanatic..... Hard men ride hardtails.
> 
> I quoted this post because it's the 1st one that I have read that has made me think twice on by bias against motorized mountain bikes. Very well said.


" I just find the key is not to be a dick, don't blow people off the trail, and certainly not on an uphill - and only ride them where permitted. "

Just got mine last week, Trek Rail-7 and I agree with everything you said. Especially the being the dick part. I've been riding seriously since 1979, competed from '83-2000' and I've seen a huge change in cyclist's attitudes toward the public and each other over the years. None of it for the better. It's not just young people either but older gents like myself who should know better, and probably complain about Gen-whatevers and their attitudes. We all ride because we love being out doors, road or mtn, and we should all think of ourselves as a single community enjoying our sport as we prefer. In that light, we should be considerate to everyone on the roads and trails because we ALL are ambassadors for our sport. If you have to slow down on a run to pass some hikers, do it. If you have the opportunity to be nice, be nice, be polite, say "Hi". Everyone loves being respected and perhaps we won't be manufacturing so many enemies in the power structures that determines our freedoms to ride.


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

fredman1085 said:


> " I just find the key is not to be a dick, don't blow people off the trail, and certainly not on an uphill - and only ride them where permitted. "
> 
> Just got mine last week, Trek Rail-7 and I agree with everything you said. Especially the being the dick part. I've been riding seriously since 1979, competed from '83-2000' and I've seen a huge change in cyclist's attitudes toward the public and each other over the years. None of it for the better. It's not just young people either but older gents like myself who should know better, and probably complain about Gen-whatevers and their attitudes. We all ride because we love being out doors, road or mtn, and we should all think of ourselves as a single community enjoying our sport as we prefer. In that light, we should be considerate to everyone on the roads and trails because we ALL are ambassadors for our sport. If you have to slow down on a run to pass some hikers, do it. If you have the opportunity to be nice, be nice, be polite, say "Hi". Everyone loves being respected and perhaps we won't be manufacturing so many enemies in the power structures that determines our freedoms to ride.


I agree with this 100%. Like every pancake, this one has two sides. Here's the other, at least from my perspective.

Shitty attitudes are just as contagious as good ones. I'm the super nice guy, the friendly guy, the respectful guy on the trail. Always. I'll always say hello, how ya doing, have a nice hike, whatever. I always observe trail proper trail etiquette and sometimes beyond. I always start this way anyway. Some people - very few - are also friendly in turn. The majority are not. Using the term 'you' for the following, I mean other trail users not the reader...but it goes like this. You don't greet me in return or even respond, you may ignore me completely, you may get bitchy or stinkface, you don't observe trail etiquette yourself, you act like I'm a problem, you maintain zero situational awareness because you have earbuds in or are a dope or both, your dog is all over endangering everyone, you don't use callouts and blind pass from behind, the list goes on and on and on. Cyclists are usually the worst of the bunch. By the end of a ride like this, I no longer have any interest in being a nice guy who observes etiquette. I'm over all the arseholes and the idiots and the narcissists and everyone else, they basically made my ride miserable and can piss off. And the circle is complete. I'm not proud of it, but such as it is. You know not a single one of them encountered me and said, "Hey, that was a nice lad. Maybe I should be the same to others".

This is why I ride alone, where I'm not likely to encounter anyone, or on off hours when others are few and far between. I like your train of thought, but it is never going to happen.


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

Nat said:


> Did you mark that you were on an ebike or are you making as if you got top 10 legitimately? Cuz that's not awesome.


Regarding ebike rides and Strava. Strava added "E-bike Ride" as a separate sport. So for people like me that ride both, I have to change the "Sport" setting accordingly. My default setting is "Bike Ride" since I do far more regular mtb rides. When riding the ebike, Strava usually detects it and asks if I want the device to change the ride to E-Bike Ride. I usually say NO, because it's really entertaining to look at times compared to young bucks with the KOM's. After I get my chuckle, I then switch it over. If someone has setup Ebike segments, it will then compare accordingly. In my main riding area there are dozens and dozens of Strava segments for Bike Ride, but relatively few for E-Bike Ride. So far I haven't cared enough to learn how to define segments.

To leave your ebike time with the regular mtb bike times is a willful decision and clearly not honest. Many of my friends do care and have a great time going back and forth on who has the KOM. All in clean fun...


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

russinthecascades said:


> So far I haven't cared enough to learn how to define segments.


It is really easy, but you need to define them by reviewing your ride on strava using a Computer web browser. I have made a ton of Segments over the years.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> Maybe you're not riding dirt bikes properly??? When I use to ride dirt bikes, I would come home 5 to 10lbs lighter then when I started and be beat to hell. Honestly this thought of you don't get a work out riding an ebike or a dirt bike is just comical when someone brings it up! Yes, it's not as grueling on your legs, but it still a dam good work out.


Dirt bikes are twice as fast as emtbs...


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

MX9799 said:


> Dirt bikes are twice as fast as emtbs...


Depending on the displacement I would say that is a major under statement.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Klurejr said:


> Depending on the displacement I would say that is a major under statement.


Given appropriate trails, the upper limit for speed differential between a class 1 ebike, and an "actual" dirt bike (250-450cc class), is pretty huge.

Even my old 1990 Honda XR200 which was... 12-13hp, would hit 50-60mph in top gear (conditions and wind dependent). In the Baja 500/1000 back in the late 90's and early 2000's, you'd have KX500's and XR600's hitting over 110mph in sections (my brain is remembering 115-118mph, but don't have any articles backing that up). And in Supercross when I was actively watching, I remember they'd have speed comparisons of riders through the whoops sections. And most people were in the 50-60mph range over the whoops on a track in a stadium. So its not like they need much space to get up to speed.

I haven't checked on anything like that recently, but I'd assume the speeds aren't lower now. 

That said the speed is trail dependent.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

mtbbiker said:


> I was the 1st in my group to get an ebike and just about everyone in my group now has an ebike. 2 yrs ago, I would hardly see any ebikes. Now when I go out, I see almost as many ebikes as I do mountain bikes. Most comments I get get are "I can't wait to get me an ebike".


There is a domino effect for this. It changes group dynamics. My riding groups tend to all have the same fitness level, one gets an e-bike, continues to ride with the group for a little bit then moves on. There was little point staying in the group when we rode 30kms and they could do 50kms. Then the next one gets an e-bike. So the group evolves as speed difference became too great.

As for Strava, well I don't think there will be any changes, my local gravel type loop which is a little too rough for a road bike has a top five which are so much faster than the next five, 25kmh up 12% climbs. Strava won't do anything, how long have users being asking for some kind of shuttle mode, IE pause a ride at the bottom of the chairlift or shuttle and resume when you descend without including the uplift?

I normally start and stop the ride but it is messy as it shows up as "ten rides" rather than one.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Mudguard said:


> Strava won't do anything, how long have users being asking for some kind of shuttle mode, IE pause a ride at the bottom of the chairlift or shuttle and resume when you descend without including the uplift?


I still have never managed to break into the top 10 on the chairlift climbs at snow summit......


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Klurejr said:


> Depending on the displacement I would say that is a major under statement.


It was a bad joke derived from the emtb arguments y'all...


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

mtbbiker said:


> Maybe you're not riding dirt bikes properly??? When I use to ride dirt bikes, I would come home 5 to 10lbs lighter then when I started and be beat to hell. Honestly this thought of you don't get a work out riding an ebike or a dirt bike is just comical when someone brings it up! Yes, it's not as grueling on your legs, but it still a dam good work out.


I didn't say you don't get a workout. I did say they're less effort. That, and the fact they go faster, is why they exist. Change my mind.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

ocnLogan said:


> Given appropriate trails, the upper limit for speed differential between a class 1 ebike, and an "actual" dirt bike (250-450cc class), is pretty huge.
> 
> Even my old 1990 Honda XR200 which was... 12-13hp, would hit 50-60mph in top gear (conditions and wind dependent). In the Baja 500/1000 back in the late 90's and early 2000's, you'd have KX500's and XR600's hitting over 110mph in sections (my brain is remembering 115-118mph, but don't have any articles backing that up). And in Supercross when I was actively watching, I remember they'd have speed comparisons of riders through the whoops sections. And most people were in the 50-60mph range over the whoops on a track in a stadium. So its not like they need much space to get up to speed.
> 
> ...


No doubt the Baja guys are getting over 100 mph, but there's no way a modern 450 in SX is hitting 50-60 mph in the whoops. 

I remember at Millville back when Ricky Carmichael, one of the fastest motocross racers that ever lived, was racing, they speed checked him in the LONG set of whoops/rollers at that track. He was in the upper 40 mph range at an outdoor motocross track on a 450. If he only got to the upper 40's on a very long outdoor whoop section, there's no way there hitting over 50 in stadium whoops. 

Granted, I don't have any proof to back that up. I'd love to see the top guys speed checked in the stadium whoops. If they're hitting over 40, it would really surprise me.

I'd bet if the stadium whoops are right out of a corner, they might hit mid 20's, and maybe break into the 30's if there's a higher speed jump before the whoops.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Silentfoe said:


> I didn't say you don't get a workout. I did say they're less effort. That, and the fact they go faster, is why they exist. Change my mind.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


If you're just cruising on trails on a moto, yeah, you can get away with not putting out much effort. 

If we're talking about racing an actual 20-30 minute motocross moto, then it's probably more effort than riding a mtb for roughly the same amount of time.
Most MX/SX racers train daily on a bicycle to build base fitness. An SX main or outdoor moto takes way more out of them.


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

Silentfoe said:


> I didn't say you don't get a workout. I did say they're less effort. That, and the fact they go faster, is why they exist. Change my mind.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


Agreed that they are less effort and mostly faster . On slightly downhill or flat track I can go faster on my regular bike. But the reason they exist is that it's a huge, expanding market- lots of money to be made.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I think someone here is being silent on something 

But kinda funny how bicycle to ebike: "the trail defines the speed" but ebike to moto: yeah, lots faster!


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

chazpat said:


> I think someone here is being silent on something
> 
> But kinda funny how bicycle to ebike: "the trail defines the speed" but ebike to moto: yeah, lots faster!


By your statement, I’ll assume you’ve not ridden a dirt bike? Trails are a lot more open on OHV trails including single track. At least the one I used to ride. Occasionally, I’d come to a tight switch, rocky style single track, where getting out of 2nd gear was tough. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

chazpat said:


> I think someone here is being silent on something
> 
> But kinda funny how bicycle to ebike: "the trail defines the speed" but ebike to moto: yeah, lots faster!


I have ridden both. From MTB to eBike I can go up to 3x faster when climbing, from 5mph to 15mph.

From eBike to Moto I can go more than 3x faster from 15mph to 50mph.

In both cases the trail defines the speed, I mostly ride Moto in the desert. I mostly ride mtb on singletrack and double track.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> I still have never managed to break into the top 10 on the chairlift climbs at snow summit......


It's our local group's annual elevation totals that get blown out of the water 😂


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

MX9799 said:


> No doubt the Baja guys are getting over 100 mph, but there's no way a modern 450 in SX is hitting 50-60 mph in the whoops.
> 
> I remember at Millville back when Ricky Carmichael, one of the fastest motocross racers that ever lived, was racing, they speed checked him in the LONG set of whoops/rollers at that track. He was in the upper 40 mph range at an outdoor motocross track on a 450. If he only got to the upper 40's on a very long outdoor whoop section, there's no way there hitting over 50 in stadium whoops.
> 
> ...


I watched supercross almost religiously from the Jeff Stanton era, all the way through the Ricky Carmichael era. I tapered off when Chad Reed was the new hotness. Back in the day, Dirt bike... or maybe Motocross Action magazine had an article where they did exactly what you're describing though. That would have been... circa 2003-2005ish? I can't seem to find it online though.

They'd radar gunned various riders at one of the races, and had a little table of "trap speeds". I honestly am second guessing myself on the speeds at this point. I just remember thinking it was way higher than I thought. I just remember reading it, and seeing that my favorite rider of the time (Ezra Lusk) was the fastest. But I could be off on the speeds. I'd guess that 20's are too low though.

EDIT: I haven't found the same article (it might be too hard to find given its "early internet" timing), but this one is pretty close.









The Speed of Supercross


We often wonder to ourselves "how fast do Supercross racers go?" Well we pointed a few radar guns at a couple Factory Honda racers to find out.




www.dirtrider.com





It gives the speed of ~34-38mph. Which means I'm probably remembering Ezra lusks speed being 39-41mph range or thereabouts.

But the point was mostly just that MX/SX bikes have easily 40-50x more power than a class 1 ebike (which is max about 1hp, MX/SX bikes were in the ~45-50hp range from the factory back when I cared).


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> By your statement, I’ll assume you’ve not ridden a dirt bike? Trails are a lot more open on OHV trails including single track. At least the one I used to ride. Occasionally, I’d come to a tight switch, rocky style single track, where getting out of 2nd gear was tough.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Of course, point is comparing apples to apples. Wouldn't a dirt bike on a mtb trail be limited by the trail as well? And aren't there trails and sections/down hills where an ebike would be faster than a mtb and not "limited by the trail"?

I'm not really trying to argue here, just pointing out how quickly some people's argument goes out the window when they are on the other end.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

chazpat said:


> Of course, point is comparing apples to apples. Wouldn't a dirt bike on a mtb trail be limited by the trail as well? And aren't there trails and sections/down hills where an ebike would be faster than a mtb and not "limited by the trail"?


Yes on both accounts.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

MX9799 said:


> No doubt the Baja guys are getting over 100 mph, but there's no way a modern 450 in SX is hitting 50-60 mph in the whoops.
> 
> I remember at Millville back when Ricky Carmichael, one of the fastest motocross racers that ever lived, was racing, they speed checked him in the LONG set of whoops/rollers at that track. He was in the upper 40 mph range at an outdoor motocross track on a 450. If he only got to the upper 40's on a very long outdoor whoop section, there's no way there hitting over 50 in stadium whoops.
> 
> ...


They'd need a straight get going that fast....From Jeremy McGrath in a YouTube video " 25 mph through the whoops is fast."


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

The phrase "the trail defines the speed" means two main things to me.

Radius of the turns is appropriate/proportional to traction available for the conveyance and speed.
Sight lines are clear enough that you can safely stop/react to blockages at the speed.
Which means that I'd expect ebikes to be much faster (2-3x) on the doubletrack/fireroad type climb trails common in multi-user parks/forests, as those tend to have pretty good sight lines, and relatively wide treads/turn radiuses. On singletrack, its harder to tell, and probably varries a lot more. Some singletrack I've been on I'm wattage/cardio limited. Other singletrack climbs around here I doubt I'd be going much faster on an ebike, as its very tight, chunky, and windy.

Historically, mountain biking hasn't "really" had to worry about uphill speed causing conflict with other users, just because going fast uphill isn't something easy for most riders to do for any length of time. And I'd suspect most comments about "ebikes passing people rudely" are happening in situations like this (especially trail systems that have downhill specific bike trails, as hikers/other trail users would only then see the bikers/ebikers on these climbs).


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

To me, there seems to be more emphasis by the major manufacturers on marketing their pedal assist bikes. All the demo bikes I see at my local bike park are mainly YT emtb's. Mainly because the YT Mill is right near the entrance of the park. I haven't seen people demo'g regular YT mtb's. Having Danny MacAskill pumping out current Heckler e-bike videos for Santa Cruz bikes instead of the 5010 or some other model is why I see this as a trend. I talked to a group of e-mtb'rs the other day. One was on a new Orbea lower power (smaller battery) emtb. He said it has the same motor as the full power (big battery) version, but it's just tuned down for the smaller battery. They are a little bit lighter, but not much. Maybe trying to market those who are on the fence about buying into the e-bike riding style, by making it seem like you still have to kinda work on your climbs?


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

chazpat said:


> Of course, point is comparing apples to apples. Wouldn't a dirt bike on a mtb trail be limited by the trail as well? And aren't there trails and sections/down hills where an ebike would be faster than a mtb and not "limited by the trail"?
> 
> I'm not really trying to argue here, just pointing out how quickly some people's argument goes out the window when they are on the other end.


Problem is, you are not making an apple to apple comparison. Maybe you don’t understand just how much more powerful 450cc dirt bike is compared to an ebike? 450cc = 30hp or more / ebike = maybe 1hp. 
A 450cc dirt bike could probably hit 0 to 60mph in a few seconds, uphill or downhill. An ebike, 0 to 20mph, I don’t know, but probably several secs and I bet a regular biker could do about the same time. 

Comparing a dirt bike to an ebike is just not comparable. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> Problem is, you are not making an apple to apple comparison. Maybe you don’t understand just how much more powerful 450cc dirt bike is compared to an ebike? 450cc = 30hp or more / ebike = maybe 1hp.
> A 450cc dirt bike could probably hit 0 to 60mph in a few seconds, uphill or downhill. An ebike, 0 to 20mph, I don’t know, but probably several secs and I bet a regular biker could do about the same time.
> 
> Comparing a dirt bike to an ebike is just not comparable.
> ...


I'd comment on that but let's just forget this, going off topic and it's my fault.


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## dvsone81 (Oct 12, 2021)

Some days I see more emtb than mtbs and vice versa. As long as they respect the trail etiquette, it doesn’t bother me to see (more of) them on the trails—gives me a reason to chase (even if I’m slower). I have a friend that I ride with regularly and w/o his emtb, we’d never be able to ride together. He doesn’t destroy the trails nor compromise other people’s safety and I see most people on emtbs are similar type of people too (maybe it’s the demographics of where we live?). Just glad he has one so we kind ride together (as a matter of fact, I have a lot of friends with emtbs that w/o them, we never ride together). But it’s the idiots on emtbs that will bother me and I won’t let them get away with the lack of courtesy and trail etiquette.


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## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

BadgerOne said:


> I agree with this 100%. Like every pancake, this one has two sides. Here's the other, at least from my perspective.
> 
> Shitty attitudes are just as contagious as good ones. I'm the super nice guy, the friendly guy, the respectful guy on the trail. Always. I'll always say hello, how ya doing, have a nice hike, whatever. I always observe trail proper trail etiquette and sometimes beyond. I always start this way anyway. Some people - very few - are also friendly in turn. The majority are not. Using the term 'you' for the following, I mean other trail users not the reader...but it goes like this. You don't greet me in return or even respond, you may ignore me completely, you may get bitchy or stinkface, you don't observe trail etiquette yourself, you act like I'm a problem, you maintain zero situational awareness because you have earbuds in or are a dope or both, your dog is all over endangering everyone, you don't use callouts and blind pass from behind, the list goes on and on and on. Cyclists are usually the worst of the bunch. By the end of a ride like this, I no longer have any interest in being a nice guy who observes etiquette. I'm over all the arseholes and the idiots and the narcissists and everyone else, they basically made my ride miserable and can piss off. And the circle is complete. I'm not proud of it, but such as it is. You know not a single one of them encountered me and said, "Hey, that was a nice lad. Maybe I should be the same to others".
> 
> This is why I ride alone, where I'm not likely to encounter anyone, or on off hours when others are few and far between. I like your train of thought, but it is never going to happen.


Such a good post, and exactly how you can describe me. To the letter.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> Problem is, you are not making an apple to apple comparison. Maybe you don’t understand just how much more powerful 450cc dirt bike is compared to an ebike? 450cc = 30hp or more / ebike = maybe 1hp.
> A 450cc dirt bike could probably hit 0 to 60mph in a few seconds, uphill or downhill. An ebike, 0 to 20mph, I don’t know, but probably several secs and I bet a regular biker could do about the same time.
> 
> Comparing a dirt bike to an ebike is just not comparable.


Not getting into the e-bike comparison, but my kid's 150cc breaks the 40hp mark and has a top speed stock a bit over 70mph; 450's stock are more like ~55hp.

But there's still no way a 450 on dirt is getting to 60 in a 'few seconds', unless your idea of a 'few' is closer to 8 or 9.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

First time I strapped my Garmin onto my dirt bike handlebar and went riding at a local two-way spaghetti bowl riding network, I was embarrassed to discover at ride’s end that my average speed was 12 mph.
Through the woods, bidirectional trails, exploring… think about it. If it’s not a race and you’re facing potential oncoming traffic in dense forest, you’d be a fool to fly around at anything over 20ish mph. 
=sParty


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

ocnLogan said:


> ...back in the late 90's and early 2000's, you'd have KX500's and XR600's hitting over 110mph in sections (my brain is remembering 115-118mph,..


The last time I rode moto would have been around 1994; I had a YZ250 (2-stroke). One of my friends had a KX500. It was the best, most-terrifying, exhilarating things I've ever ridden/drove. They prolly quite making them b/c too many guys were getting injured, too many girls pregnant, and too many children and puppies harmed....yeah, they were that badass. 
If you can find one, I HIGHLY recommend riding it, but for God sakes: be careful! I bet it's still a BAD ASS MACHINE!


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## Tara-blyHappy (Aug 10, 2018)

62 y/o this summer. Didn't get out snowboarding or even outside as much this winter as hoped. Starting to get out biking again now, but it is definitely getting harder to get back into shape as I get older. I think I will probably get an ebike within a few more years. Biggest reason I have not is the price for what I would want. Also, I work on my bike a bit, but there are a lot of things I will take it to the LBS for. Just seems like more wear and tear and expenses like motor problems to pay for.

I have no problem with the bikes themselves. There are very friendly and also inconsiderate mtb riders, horse riders, hikers and emtb riders. Generally, I don't believe the motor changes the person. I think within a few years they will generally be allowed most places. Money and technology talks. My best friend got one last year. We had been riding together for around 30 years. Since the new bike, I think I have ridden with him maybe a couple times. Just cannot keep up with him, and I do not want to slow him down and lessen his fun. Still hang out and see each other but kinda sad about it. Life goes on. I am still enjoying riding and do a lot of bike trips. Hoping that continues for myself and all here.


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

Tara-blyHappy said:


> Biggest reason I have not is the price for what I would want. Also, I work on my bike a bit, but there are a lot of things I will take it to the LBS for. Just seems like more wear and tear and expenses like motor problems to pay for.


I haven't had any motor problems, but I did go through a cassette and chain in only 825 miles. LBS told me that either SRAM or Shimano (or both) are working on a thicker steel cassette and chain for ebikes. Needed!


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## Muddy Faceplant (Jan 31, 2021)

chiefsilverback said:


> Just think, if you weren't there he could get in an extra lap or two in the time he spends waiting for you to winch your analogue ass to the top!


Hahaha! Analogue ass made my day!


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

mtbbiker said:


> Problem is, you are not making an apple to apple comparison. Maybe you don’t understand just how much more powerful 450cc dirt bike is compared to an ebike? 450cc = 30hp or more / ebike = maybe 1hp.
> A 450cc dirt bike could probably hit 0 to 60mph in a few seconds, uphill or downhill. An ebike, 0 to 20mph, I don’t know, but probably several secs and I bet a regular biker could do about the same time.
> 
> Comparing a dirt bike to an ebike is just not comparable.


Yeah, no comparison at all. I actually have a real-life example: I ride a mountain bike, a boomer scooter (sorry I love that name and think it's hilarious) and a WR250F on the same trail near my house (yes, it's "real" single track, twisty and fun with some rocks here and there, and yes, it's even moto legal, on USFS land!). While I never descend it on the moto I climb it regularly on all 3. Of course I'm faster on the e-bike (Turbo Levo) than the mountain bike, but I'm not as fast on the e-bike as the top Strava times on non-ebikes. And no, I don't try to go as fast as I possibly can on the e-bike, I'm generally climbing at a comfortable aerobic effort. On the moto I'm so fast it's not even worth comparing.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> Problem is, you are not making an apple to apple comparison. Maybe you don’t understand just how much more powerful 450cc dirt bike is compared to an ebike? 450cc = 30hp or more / ebike = maybe 1hp.
> A 450cc dirt bike could probably hit 0 to 60mph in a few seconds, uphill or downhill. An ebike, 0 to 20mph, I don’t know, but probably several secs and I bet a regular biker could do about the same time.
> 
> Comparing a dirt bike to an ebike is just not comparable.
> ...


So it is a magnitude thing. As long as the two wheel vehicle has less than 30hp, it should be allowed on the trails with the mountain bikes.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

jimglassford said:


> So it is a magnitude thing. As long as the two wheel vehicle has less than 30hp, it should be allowed on the trails with the mountain bikes.


Nope, it’s a Class 1 thing

In case you don’t know what a class 1 ebike is. 
Less then 1hp
Motor shuts off at 20mph
Pedal assist to turn motor on. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> Nope, it’s a Class 1 thing
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah and if you are a Class 1 snob then you get to be as much of an ahole as those that don't like eBikes to Class 2 folks. I wouldn't own an eBike without a throttle personally even though I only use it to start off with in most situations til I get my feet going. But folks think they are nothing but motorcycles with one. It's the rider folks, not the bike that determines good and bad.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Bigwheel said:


> Yeah and if you are a Class 1 snob then you get to be as much of an ahole as those that don't like eBikes to Class 2 folks. I wouldn't own an eBike without a throttle personally even though I only use it to start off with in most situations til I get my feet going. But folks think they are nothing but motorcycles with one. It's the rider folks, not the bike that determines good and bad.


"My motor is good. Your motor is bad!"


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Bigwheel said:


> Yeah and if you are a Class 1 snob then you get to be as much of an ahole as those that don't like eBikes to Class 2 folks. I wouldn't own an eBike without a throttle personally even though I only use it to start off with in most situations til I get my feet going. But folks think they are nothing but motorcycles with one. It's the rider folks, not the bike that determines good and bad.


In my view, Class 1 (pedal assist) is safer vs. accidentally activating a throttle and riding yourself off a cliff etc


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

One of the great mysteries of the biking world. Why do folks who don't support ebikes come to a forum specifically for ebikes to spew negativity? Haven't you figured out yet that those of us who do support them don't care why you don't. Maybe you just like banging your head against a wall....


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

russinthecascades said:


> One of the great mysteries of the biking world. Why do folks who don't support ebikes come to a forum specifically for ebikes to spew negativity? Haven't you figured out yet that those of us who do support them don't care why you don't. Maybe you just like banging your head against a wall....


Honestly, for the most part this thread has been fairly civil. I’ve only had to delete a few posts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

russinthecascades said:


> One of the great mysteries of the biking world. Why do folks who don't support ebikes come to a forum specifically for ebikes to spew negativity?


This thread was originally in general. It just got moved. Personally, I'm here for people complaining about the complaining.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

russinthecascades said:


> One of the great mysteries of the biking world. Why do folks who don't support ebikes come to a forum specifically for ebikes to spew negativity? Haven't you figured out yet that those of us who do support them don't care why you don't. Maybe you just like banging your head against a wall....


Because non-e-bikers deal with e-bikes, good, bad, or indifferent. A mystery 4 year old logic could solve. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

Carl Mega said:


> This thread was originally in general. It just got moved.


That does explain a lot of the response. Thanks


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Jack7782 said:


> In my view, Class 1 (pedal assist) is safer vs. accidentally activating a throttle and riding yourself off a cliff etc


Jeez, glad it didn't happen to me here while enjoying this view









Do you honestly think that if an eMTB has a throttle that it can't also have a sophisticated torque sensing PAS same as a Class 1 has? I admit that there are plenty of folks that buy a RAD type bike and just ride the throttle but you won't be seeing them on the trails and they are the ones losing out on the best part of the trip, pedaling.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Bigwheel said:


> Jeez, glad it didn't happen to me here while enjoying this view
> View attachment 1974459
> 
> 
> Do you honestly think that if an eMTB has a throttle that it can't also have a sophisticated torque sensing PAS same as a Class 1 has? I admit that there are plenty of folks that buy a RAD type bike and just ride the throttle but you won't be seeing them on the trails and they are the ones losing out on the best part of the trip, pedaling.


I am talking about technical trails with exposure - not the smooth buffed out trails


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jack7782 said:


> I am talking about technical trails with exposure - not the smooth buffed out trails



Right.
Cuz throttles and motors are only fit for 'smooth buffed out trails'.


Have you ever actually been outside?


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

WHALENARD said:


> Because non-e-bikers deal with e-bikes, good, bad, or indifferent. A mystery 4 year old logic could solve.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


Do they, do they really "deal" with ebikes ? Or did they hear or read about someone who had an issue with ebikes ?


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Right.
> Cuz throttles and motors are only fit for 'smooth buffed out trails'.
> 
> 
> Have you ever actually been outside?


That's a 'Trails' motorcycle - you must have posted the wrong picture lol


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## La Nada (Mar 1, 2017)

I can understand why people react negatively to ebikes and they're not appealing to me personally. But, at the same time as someone who works in healthcare, if they're getting people off the couch and out on the trails, I think that's a good thing overall for our society.


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

La Nada said:


> I can understand why people react negatively to ebikes and they're not appealing to me personally. But, at the same time as someone who works in healthcare, if they're getting people off the couch and out on the trails, I think that's a good thing overall for our society.


I didn't care that people rode emtb's on trails we ride, didn't affect me in the slightest...been riding and racing mtb's for 30 years. I just bought an Orbea Rise emtb, 1 ride so far as we still have snow here, but excited to ride it for sure. I think because it's a relatively new thing, it's hard for some to understand them. I also think some have internal envy as maybe their finances prevent them from owning one right now, or get pissy when they're hunkered down on a granny ring climb and someone can pass them with less effort. Either way, they are here, I now have one, and I will ride it AND my mtb like normal on our local trails. Haters always find something to hate...sad.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jack7782 said:


> That's a 'Trails' motorcycle - you must have posted the wrong picture lol


Actually it's a 'trials' motorcycle. Pretty sure it's got a throttle

These might as well.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Tall BMX'r said:


> At least were I ride, which is a public bike park developed by local mountain biker's for years. There's no lift or shuttle, just bomb down and grind up. Over the past 4 or 5 months I've notice more and more pedal assist bikes. So much so, that the non-assist riders like myself are the few. I just ride the up's off to the side, because of all the PA's passing me constantly. I've talked to a number of them, and they admit that they would not be riding mountain bikes if they didn't have the pedal assists. It's what got them out there.
> My friend I ride with regularly has one. He just waits for me at the top, but I wait for him at the bottom Do I think about getting one? Yes, but not in the near future. I would, and have always grinded out my rides for the work out and thrill of the down. I have ridden my friends PA both up and down a steep single track. What I noticed is it just plows down through rocks. You can feel the weight and momentum of the bike. My bike is so light, I don't feel the weight and momentum of the bike. In bigger rocky sections I have to get way back off my seat to put my bodies weight more behind the bike. On the PA I didn't feel I had to get way back because the weight of the bike just pushed through everything.
> The jumps on the PA was just straight off and land. I'm used to hopping my bike into the air and crossing it up. I don't see any PA bikes doing anything other than going straight over gap jumps, level ups, or any other jumps.
> My friend rides about 5 miles from his house and meets me at the bike park. We do a couple of loops (7 to 8 miles and 1,000 feet elevation on average) and I'm beat. He rides home another 5 miles. I'm dripping sweat, he's not.
> Would I have more fun on a PA mtb? I don't know.... The jumps would not be as fun for sure...


If I had a pedal only bike park like Kanuga near me I'd definitely get one.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Actually it's a 'trials' motorcycle. Pretty sure it's got a throttle
> 
> These might as well.
> 
> ...


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

PS mtb said:


> I didn't care that people rode emtb's on trails we ride, didn't affect me in the slightest...been riding and racing mtb's for 30 years. I just bought an Orbea Rise emtb, 1 ride so far as we still have snow here, but excited to ride it for sure. I think because it's a relatively new thing, it's hard for some to understand them. I also think some have internal envy as maybe their finances prevent them from owning one right now, or get pissy when they're hunkered down on a granny ring climb and someone can pass them with less effort. Either way, they are here, I now have one, and I will ride it AND my mtb like normal on our local trails. Haters always find something to hate...sad.



Let's use your example. I am in "granny gear," trying to get up a hill and the person on the e-bike in on my rear because I am not going fast enough. Trails here are narrow and passing is difficult.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

jimglassford said:


> Let's use your example. I am in "granny gear," trying to get up a hill and the person on the e-bike in on my rear because I am not going fast enough. Trails here are narrow and passing is difficult.


Go on...


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Actually it's a 'trials' motorcycle. Pretty sure it's got a throttle
> 
> These might as well.


Yes I see tech trail with exposure in this photo, but no emtbs again?


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

jimglassford said:


> Let's use your example. I am in "granny gear," trying to get up a hill and the person on the e-bike in on my rear because I am not going fast enough. Trails here are narrow and passing is difficult.


I HATE that, especially on a long techy lung bursting climb.

When I am on my e-fattie, I always need to remind myself to NOT do this. It’s not intentional, but very easy to do.

I have adopted an approach on all my bikes of trying to be less competitive and rushed, and more friendly, with anyone I encounter. No inadvertent humble bragging either. And if someone is in front of me when I am on my e-fattie, I will often stop, take a few pics of my daughter, and create a little space between us.

And if someone is on my a$$ on an e-bike, on a long lung bursting climb, I will now pull over and stop, say hello and let them go. Whatever. I don’t need to clean sections/rides any more. 

Things are working out a lot better for me on the trail since adopting an approach of trying to be the most respectful rider out there, on any of my bikes. My rides are actually a lot more fun now, for both me and my daughter.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jack7782 said:


> Yes I see tech trail with exposure in this photo, but no emtbs again?


Well, one would figure that if people are riding this stuff with a throttle and 40+ HP without 'riding themselves off a cliff', then it's probably safe to assume it could be also be done with less than 1 HP.

No?


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I HATE that, especially on a long techy lung bursting climb.
> 
> When I am on my e-fattie, I always need to remind myself to NOT do this. It’s not intentional, but very easy to do.
> 
> ...


Positive energy. It's a real thing. I adopted that approach to driving, especially since my business name and phone number are on the side of my trucks, but it really lowers stress and overall makes me a happier person. 

Plus the difference in time not driving like a maniac is minimal.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

2021Mach6 said:


> Positive energy. It's a real thing. I adopted that approach to driving, especially since my business name and phone number are on the side of my trucks, but it really lowers stress and overall makes me a happier person.
> 
> Plus the difference in time not driving like a maniac is minimal.


I couldn’t agree more.

TBH, I got myself into a situation when I inadvertently exercised some bad, selfish trail etiquette on one occasion. It was a very good lesson. I learned very quickly that it’s MUCH better to always go the other way. And to be on the lookout for bad reactions, before they occur. 

And no - it was not a physical confrontation. More of a reputational thing.

I’m grateful it happened. It was a good solid slap upside the head for me, which I apparently needed. I hope I never slip backwards again.

It’s a lot easier to screw up on an e-bike. I know that now. I am always on the look out for bad behaviour on my part.


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

jimglassford said:


> Let's use your example. I am in "granny gear," trying to get up a hill and the person on the e-bike in on my rear because I am not going fast enough. Trails here are narrow and passing is difficult.


Ok, if it's me behind you, I match your speed until it either opens up where you can let me pass. Not much different when a faster rider is behind you, unless we're racing, then I will be yelling TRACK ! Class 1 emtb's take effort to go up


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

PS mtb said:


> …Class 1 emtb's take effort to go up


The only effort for me is when I very infrequently put it in boost mode. When I do, I have to hang on for dear life to try to control the thing from launching off the trail into the trees. Apart from that, almost effortless in Eco mode using the available gearing.

I commuted to work twice last week. First time in 2 years. I have only otherwise been on my e-fattie and KICKR all winter. My commutes on my geared Unit were shocking. My cardio was great but my leg strength was WAY down. I have some work to do over the next 2 months.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Well, one would figure that if people are riding this stuff with a throttle and 40+ HP without 'riding themselves off a cliff', then it's probably safe to assume it could be also be done with less than 1 HP.
> 
> No?


I agree, but for the ‘unskilled masses’ new to mountain biking, I think it would be dangerous. The natural instinct is to stop peddling when you want to stop - but if you hit that throttle by mistake or panic - that is where the newbie is going to get slammed. Right?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mtnbkrmike said:


> It’s a lot easier to screw up on an e-bike. I know that now. I am always on the look out for bad behaviour on my part.


Thanks for saying that. From years of moderating on this site one of the biggest causes for disagreements is when eBikers claim that there is no difference between an eBike and a regular mtb and as long as there is good ettiquite then there will be no trail conflict, and that is true. But having that motor does provide the opportunity to travel at speeds one could not do on a pedal only bike, and thus more effort is required to keep ettiquite at the forefront in certain situations. I appreciate an eBiker recognizing this and sharing their story of growth.

We can all hope that other eBikers do the same as you.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Jack7782 said:


> I agree, but for the ‘unskilled masses’ new to mountain biking, I think it would be dangerous. The natural instinct is to stop peddling when you want to stop - but if you hit that throttle by mistake or panic - that is where the newbie is going to get slammed. Right?


Wrong. Can happen by hitting the pedals wrong also:

"The only effort for me is when I very infrequently put it in boost mode. When I do, I have to hang on for dear life to try to control the thing from launching off the trail into the trees."

Even an experienced rider can make the wrong move in the wrong mode in a crux situation. The likely hood of newbies riding high exposure trails is low. But you are a top contributor here so you must be an expert.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jack7782 said:


> I agree, but for the ‘unskilled masses’ new to mountain biking, I think it would be dangerous. The natural instinct is to stop peddling when you want to stop - but if you hit that throttle by mistake or panic - that is where the newbie is going to get slammed. Right?





mtnbkrmike said:


> when I very infrequently put it in boost mode. When I do, I have to hang on for dear life to try to control the thing from launching off the trail into the trees.



Crashes happen. That's part of the game. TS, as they say.

Add a motor, it's entirely likely lead to harder crashes at higher speed.
But please don't ever say that in front of the resident E-vangelical-bikers though, they say it's unpossible because the motor actually doesn't make any difference, nor does it make anyone ride faster, nor will it lead to beginners hitting trails that are way above their heads.

Except when it does. 

Or something like that. 
🤷‍♂️


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jack7782 said:


> I agree, but for the ‘unskilled masses’ new to mountain biking, I think it would be dangerous. The natural instinct is to stop peddling when you want to stop - but if you hit that throttle by mistake or panic - that is where the newbie is going to get slammed. Right?


It's an inherently risky activity. 🤷‍♂️


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


> It's an inherently risky activity. 🤷‍♂️


Teaching my sister to ride a motorcycle when we were kids. Lets the clutch out, too much throttle, legs flying off the back down the road with us running after her. Went up an embankment and had a minor crash. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 45+ years ago and it's still funny!


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

mtnbkrmike said:


> The only effort for me is when I very infrequently put it in boost mode. When I do, I have to hang on for dear life to try to control the thing from launching off the trail into the trees.


You're going to hurt yourself with that 1 HP monster of an emtb you got. Probably should get rid of it before something really bad happens.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)




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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

MX9799 said:


> You're going to hurt yourself with that 1 HP monster of an emtb you got. Probably should get rid of it before something really bad happens.


Either that or perhaps you should consider riding yours on something a little more challenging. Don’t be afraid to stray off the MUPs.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Either that or perhaps you should consider riding yours on something a little more challenging. Don’t be afraid to stray off the MUPs.


I don't know man. I wouldn't want this beast to get away from me. Launching this rocket ship into a tree could be dangerous.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

MX9799 said:


> I don't know man. I wouldn't want this beast to get away from me. Launching this rocket ship into a tree could be dangerous.


I suspect your a$$ might be quite a bit fatter than mine too, so there’s that.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I suspect your a$$ might be quite a bit fatter than mine too, so there’s that.


Probably so. I'm so fat that if this 1 HP machine does launch me into orbit, I'll probably take a few of the trees out as well. I think I'll stick to the paved greenways with my 7" travel emtb for now. Maybe one day I'll get closer to your level and venture onto some blue trails with this top-fuel-dragster of a bike I own.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Even fellow e-bikers can't stand each other. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WHALENARD said:


> Even fellow e-bikers can't stand each other.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk



It's a slippery slope.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

WHALENARD said:


> Even fellow e-bikers can't stand each other.


Gotta get a laugh out of the the Class1ers getting bent out of shape and sanctimonious wrt Class 2. 

You can't make this **** up.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Gotta get a laugh out of the the Class1ers getting bent out of shape and sanctimonious wrt Class 2.
> 
> You can't make this **** up.


Like it or not, the brain wizards of our industry have pushed Class 1 (not class 2 or class 3) for the MTB masses. I say accept that and go riding


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I love that "classes" of ebikes is still a thing. The moment landowners opened up access to ebikes, they were screwed. Please, try to enforce a class 1 only rule. Hardly anyone can tell the difference, especially as they ride by. I've kicked off quite a few Sauron type bikes because they thought they could ride anywhere ebikes could. Good luck. Get bent.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jack7782 said:


> Like it or not, the brain wizards of our industry have pushed Class 1 (not class 2 or class 3) for the MTB masses.


Just because your industry pushed something, it still takes a special type of buy it hook, line and sinker. 
The distinctions between classes don't add up to a hill of beans IRL.
The thing that defines e-bikes is the motor, not where you put the throttle.


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> Crashes happen. That's part of the game. TS, as they say.
> 
> Add a motor, it's entirely likely lead to harder crashes at higher speed.
> But please don't ever say that in front of the resident E-vangelical-bikers though, they say it's unpossible because the motor actually doesn't make any difference, nor does it make anyone ride faster, nor will it lead to beginners hitting trails that are way above their heads.
> ...


My experience has been just the opposite. At high speed I have the same adrenalin fueled awareness and the ebike and non-bike handle similarly. Where I've gone down the most is in slow speed techie terrain. When I ratchet as I normally would, but the ebike motor adds I boost I wasn't ready for. Sharp switchbacks can be a similar situation where that boost can get you in trouble. On my first road trip with the ebike, I tumbled down almost to a cliff edge due to that unanticipated ratchet boost...

I've ridden with beginners on ebikes several times leading or riding sweep on group rides. The common theme I see is that beginners are usually scared of speed, just like regular bike beginners...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jack7782 said:


> Like it or not, the brain wizards of our industry have pushed Class 1 (not class 2 or class 3) for the MTB masses.


Just because your industry pushed it, doesn't mean you have to buy it.
A motor is a motor, wherever you stick the throttle. There is very little discernable difference between the classes IRL.

Side note - did someone actually delete my previous post saying this?
Are we seriously not allowed to even mention the fact that e-bikes have motors and throttles now?
Is it okay to say they have wheels, or is that off-limits too?
What a joke.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Just because your industry pushed it, doesn't mean you have to buy it.


That may be true, but big and most small brands have no appetite to market an emtb with 28 mph and throttle etc.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

Someone is buying them. I've seen one on local trails already.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

d365 said:


> Someone is buying them. I've seen one on local trails already.


Class 1 is largely an artificial category. Not a limitation of technology or form, but rather it is the one deemed likely to be permissible on the most non-motorized trails.

Like virtually all motor vehicles, free of constraints - most consumers would select the most powerful/capable vehicle before the corresponding form becomes a limitation; to purposely restrict is niche. With regard to eBikes, you have these as constraints: access/regulation, cost and platform weight. Namely the first two tho as class 1 ungoverned or artificially restricted is capable of more before having to incur extra weight on the platform. 

I see way more class 2+ eBikes on the road than class 1. Consumer choice given the governance of options.

In dirt bike land (which is largely ungoverned), the arms race is usually about the most amount of traction capable power in the lightest weight. Approachable 450 power with a sub 250 weight? Sign me up. Basically, no one (few) is purposely doing with less because of some noble concept of riding a lessor performant bike because of a personal "line in the sand". People may find their desired chassis weight or category for their riding or how much they want to spend or limits of reliability - but few are leaving useful, applicable power on the table 'just because'.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Jack7782 said:


> I agree, but for the ‘unskilled masses’ new to mountain biking, I think it would be dangerous. The natural instinct is to stop peddling when you want to stop - but if you hit that throttle by mistake or panic - that is where the newbie is going to get slammed. Right?


Why are you even asking this, Jack?
Someone appoint you Supreme Universal Commander?
You worry about you. I'll worry about me.
I got this.
Thanks.
=sParty


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

d365 said:


> Someone is buying them. I've seen one on local trails already.


It's the only thing I've seen around here. 

Zero Class 1s, a few what I assume to be class 2 as they have a button as well as PAS, and a few 'beyond-class' Sur-Rons or equivalent that don't even bother with pedals.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I don't mean to brag but… I didn't need no motor to put myself in the hospital. Cheaters!


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Sparticus said:


> Why are you even asking this, Jack?
> Someone appoint you Supreme Universal Commander?
> You worry about you. I'll worry about me.
> I got this.
> ...


No offense intended here, but I happen to believe that a throttle would not be a smart option for riding tech trails. Just my opinion. What is your opinion about throttles?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jack7782 said:


> No offense intended here, but I happen to believe that a throttle would not be a smart option for riding tech trails. Just my opinion. What is your opinion about throttles?


All e-bikes have throttles.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Jack7782 said:


> No offense intended here, but I happen to believe that a throttle would not be a smart option for riding tech trails. Just my opinion. What is your opinion about throttles?


My opinion is consistent with Slappy's opinion:


slapheadmofo said:


> All e-bikes have throttles.


... it's just that the class 1 ebike's throttle is awkward -- one has to pedal in order to engage it. It would be much more convenient if the throtttle was mounted up on the handlebar (like my dirt bike's throttle.)
That said, my ebike is class 1 which means I have to pedal it in order to ride it.
That's what I signed up for, that's something I believe fundamentally differentiates a pedal-assist ebike from an electric motorcycle. The PAS / pedal assist system essentially governs the class 1 ebike into a machine that can't roost, can't do any more trail damage than a mountain bike.
Ungoverned throttles are a blast and I employ mine (on my dirt bike) wherever it's legal to engage that machine's 31 horsepower. Meanwhile my ebike's ultimate output is limp in comparison.
Anyway, throttles are not my point. Yeah, they can be abused or misunderstood.
Self appointment as spokesman for what is safe or unsafe for other people is my point.
Please don't do it.
Don't want a throttle?
Don't get one.
Don't want a pedal assist bike?
Don't get one.
But please don't decide that just because something might be unsafe for you, that it's unsafe for others. Or that you imagine it is.
I value my personal liberty and if I want to push the envelope, even if it's doing a dangerous sport that's brand new to me, that's up to me.
Thanks.
=sParty


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

As an ebike owner I've said it at least a dozen times on these forums and I'll say it again now.
An ebike is an underpowered electric motorcycle with an awkward throttle.
Fight me.
=sParty


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Carl Mega said:


> Class 1 is largely an artificial category. Not a limitation of technology or form, but rather it is the one deemed likely to be permissible on the most non-motorized trails.
> 
> Like virtually all motor vehicles, free of constraints - most consumers would select the most powerful/capable vehicle before the corresponding form becomes a limitation; to purposely restrict is niche. With regard to eBikes, you have these as constraints: access/regulation, cost and platform weight. Namely the first two tho as class 1 ungoverned or artificially restricted is capable of more before having to incur extra weight on the platform.
> 
> ...


There seems to be a decent market for these lower powered and lighter Ebikes. 
Kenvo SL
Levo SL
Orbea Rize and a few more. 

My last bike was a Tazer and the old E8000 motor with max 70nn of torque. I personally was pleased with that power. Never felt the need for more. Only reason I got rid of that bike was because of the 500wh battery, not the 70nm of torque. 

If specialized were to update the Kenvo SL (42lbs) with around 60nm, I’d buy it in a heartbeat. I like the ideal of a light weight ebike, but slightly more power than what it has now. Quite a few ebikers are making this choice. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Sparticus said:


> As an ebike owner I've said it at least a dozen times on these forums and I'll say it again now.
> An ebike is an underpowered electric motorcycle with an awkward throttle.
> Fight me.
> =sParty


It seems some people don't understand that a PAS bike uses a pedal-actuated throttle rather than (or in addition to) a button operated one.
Just don't point it out to them.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Slapheadmofo, please pull back the reins a bit


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> Slapheadmofo, please pull back the reins a bit


Sorry.
I figured that exchange would be deleted immediately anyway due to the blatant political crap, so I'd call it like I saw it, even if only for a moment.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Personally I hate to see antagonism saturating so many of MTBR's ebike discussions.
I'm first and foremost a mountain biker -- I probably ride my mountain bikes twice as much as I ride my ebike and dirt bike put together.
I get the rage against the motor -- a couple years ago I started out absolutely anti-ebike.
Then I rode one.
That's when I realized that...

ebikes are fun as can be
ebikes are not a danger to the trails*
at some point in my life, if I'm lucky enough to keep enough of my health to still be cycling when I'm, like, over 100 years old, I'll want to ride an ebike because I simply won't be able to pedal a human powered bike up the trails anymore (despite what my sig says)
Given these factors, I decided to review my perspective on the ebike.
I've become an ebike defender.
Meanwhile the haters annoy me but you know what annoys me as much as the haters?
The ebike-friendly deniers who say ebikes don't have motors or don't have throttles.
Ebike power output is toned down, ebike performance is governed, ebikes require pedaling in order to move, but for heaven's sake people, they have a motor and they have a throttle.
It's a weak motor and it's an awkward throttle BUT...
Let's not lose credibility by saying ebikes don't have them. To do so would be to engage in bald face lying and whenever done is obvious to all who oppose ebikes. Denying the motor or throttle only serves to inflame the haters.
Call it what it is, please. It's an ebike. Electric bike. Has a motor. Motorized vehicles can't be used without some sort of throttle. Even if we have to move the pedals in order to engage it.
Finally, ride your ebike wherever ebikes are legal and don't let people push you around. If they get huffy, move on but don't take it personally. We (mountain bikers) got the same attitude from hikers back when mountain bikes first appeared on the scene. There's no need to be defensive.
=sParty

*The operator determines the danger. Same as with mountain bikes. It's possible to abuse either.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> If specialized were to update the Kenvo SL (42lbs) with around 60nm, I’d buy it in a heartbeat. I like the ideal of a light weight ebike, but slightly more power than what it has now. Quite a few ebikers are making this choice.


My dad just got his Norco Range VLT with the Shimano EP8 a couple days ago.
Claims 85nm; haven't had a chance to mess with it yet though.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> There seems to be a decent market for these lower powered and lighter Ebikes.
> Kenvo SL
> Levo SL
> Orbea Rize and a few more.


Ungoverned, each one of those bikes is capable of faster and more unrestricted power without a weight penalty. Again, their power & speed characteristics are mostly a by product of what is allowed vs. what they could be. But, yes, just like in the moto world there are platforms that emphases low weight at the expense of power.... Or, more appropriately here, runtime (like those bikes). Maneuverability, etc.

Right now, there is a "hesitation" for ppl coming from the mtb/cycling world to ebikes. Dancing the throttle/no throttle question and blending w/ traditional mtb sensibilities. And that makes sense - esp. in light of how they are regulated. If there was no such regulation, I believe the resistance would erode and we'd be basically right where moto is...."why would I not use all the power my bike is capable of?" & "what is the most performant bike on my terrain?". Which is also where non-traditional cyclists buying eBikes mindset is...

I can't think of a dirt biker who wouldn't cut the 'grey wire' or remove a throttle governor or remove pollution control or tune their bike to meet performance needs vs. emissions... uncork, etc. Basically - step 2 of a new bike:

Step 1 - go over bike & set ergos - initial suspension
Step 2 - adjust bike to run properly and "as intended, not as sold" decork
Step 3 - base line eval
Step 4 - tune power delivery and suspension to rider and use-case

edit: Maybe a better comparison: What I'm saying is - if there was a Levo SL that made 40nm and one that made 60nm. Same everything - just one is restricted. No one is buying the 40nm one. Every single person would buy the 60nm and use the power at their discretion. No one wants an artificially restricted bike due to their nobility of sport.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Step 1 - go over bike & set ergos - initial suspension
Step 2 - adjust bike to run properly and "as intended, not as sold" decork
Step 3 - base line eval
Step 4 - tune power delivery and suspension to rider and use-case[/QUOTE]

I see where you are coming from. Thank goodness for the most part when buying into the main bikes like: Specialized, Santa Cruz, Trek and others. I am only aware of one mod, but no where have I seen a way to increase power. I saw one vendor try and suffered several fried motor circuit boards. 

Unfortunately we have the BangFang motors that can be uncorked and some others out there. I usually see these on the roads as commuter bikes. Usually those Ebikes are not off road worthy. 


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## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

Carl Mega said:


> Like virtually all motor vehicles, free of constraints - most consumers would select the most powerful/capable vehicle before the corresponding form becomes a limitation; to purposely restrict is niche.


Yup. I don't need a car with 400 hp. Heck, the rear wheels can only handle that much power around six months of the year here...if that. Let alone I could be doing wildly illegal speeds in seconds. But here I am, proud owner. Could totally see falling into the same (il)logic with an ebike. Sure, 20mph could make a lot of flat stuff fun, but imagine 25. Wide open fire roads would probably be fun at 35. Not knocking the whole ebike concept, but the limitations are very artificial.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> . Thank goodness for the most part when buying into the main bikes like: Specialized, Santa Cruz, Trek and others. I am only aware of one mod, but no where have I seen a way to increase power. I saw one vendor try and suffered several fried motor circuit boards.


Yup. The big brands are harder - mostly just the cut-off via dongles. The offbrands are expanding and easy to Frankenstein for the most part; it'll be interesting to see where that brings us over time. FWIW, I've consider my options here to build a eMoto platform.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

goldsbar said:


> Yup. I don't need a car with 400 hp. Heck, the rear wheels can only handle that much power around six months of the year here...if that. Let alone I could be doing wildly illegal speeds in seconds. But here I am, proud owner. Could totally see falling into the same (il)logic with an ebike. Sure, 20mph could make a lot of flat stuff fun, but imagine 25. Wide open fire roads would probably be fun at 35. Not knocking the whole ebike concept, but the limitations are very artificial.


There’s a limit when you only have less then 1hp. It would be hard to cruise at 35mph with off-road gearing. If your bike has the gearing, with only less than 1hp, it would take a huge power from the rider to sustain that speed. That bike would be terrible at going up any true mtb climbs. Probably burn the motor up. 

From what I see in other sections of MTBR, this is the biggest issue. People don’t know what a class 1 bike is. People claim all sorts of stuff about them which are false and most have not spent much time on them to see what a class 1 ebike is all about. 

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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

There’s a limit when you only have less then 1hp. It would be hard to cruise at 25mph with off-road gearing. If your bike has a throttle, with only less than 1hp, it would take huge power from the battery without pedaling to sustain that speed. That bike would be terrible at going up any true mtb climbs. Probably burn the motor up.

From what I see in this section of MTBR, this is the biggest issue. People don’t know what a class 2 bike is. People claim all sorts of stuff about them which are false and most have not spent any time on them to see what a class 2 ebike is all about.

Pardon the plagiarising


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Bigwheel said:


> There’s a limit when you only have less then 1hp. It would be hard to cruise at 25mph with off-road gearing. If your bike has a throttle, with only less than 1hp, it would take huge power from the battery without pedaling to sustain that speed. That bike would be terrible at going up any true mtb climbs. Probably burn the motor up.
> 
> From what I see in this section of MTBR, this is the biggest issue. People don’t know what a class 2 bike is. People claim all sorts of stuff about them which are false and most have not spent any time on them to see what a class 2 ebike is all about.
> 
> Pardon the plagiarising


plagiarism would get you an F in school, but thank goodness we are not that strict here. I’ve got no issues with a class 2 bike, but many places are drawing a line at Class 1. I haven’t ridden a class 2 bike and the only difference is the throttle, so I imagine it rides just like a class 1 bike. I’m sure people have legitimate reason for a throttle.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Sparticus said:


> An ebike is an underpowered electric motorcycle with an awkward throttle.
> Fight me.
> =sParty


Not sure if this qualifies as a fight or not but I'd debate the term "awkward" applied to the throttle. Yeah, it's a bit weird at first getting the timing right because of the inherent delay between when the torque sensor does its thing and the power output changes, but once you get used to it I feel like its pretty versatile. Especially if you are an experienced cyclist you actually have quite a bit of control through your feet to the cranks and as a mountain biker are used to applying varying amounts of pressure in all sorts of different situations. Especially with well-written controller software the whole setup ends up feeling quite intuitive to me now. It's also kinda nice to not have to vary your grip on the bars to control it - you can always keep the perfect hand position.

But yeah, it's a throttle. Controlled ultimately by my brain throttle.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> plagiarism would get you an F in school, but thank goodness we are not that strict here. I’ve got no issues with a class 2 bike, but many places are drawing a line at Class 1. I haven’t ridden a class 2 bike and the only difference is the throttle, so I imagine it rides just like a class 1 bike. I’m sure people have legitimate reason for a throttle.


Not picking on you but just have never been a fan of the whole Class law system that was put in place by the manufacturers so that they could just put a different charger plug on and sell their EU no throttle reg bikes here. The Federal eBike laws that have been in place for years, basically 750w/20mph are same as Class 1/2. In fact if you look at the PFB color chart there is no difference of allowable access between 1 and 2










except for under the pedal operated column they just say NO and conveniently left out the fact that it is entirely possible, and I would say 99% of the time correct, that they also have a PAS either torque assist or cadence sensing. However I do admit that folks buy ebikes and just ride the throttle and it bugs me every time I see someone doing it cause it is not a good look. But I never have seen someone on a mtb trail just riding the throttle, ever. For starting off and as a walk assist for how little room it takes up and weight it adds it is a nice little accessory.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mtbbiker said:


> plagiarism would get you an F in school, but thank goodness we are not that strict here. I’ve got no issues with a class 2 bike, but many places are drawing a line at Class 1. I haven’t ridden a class 2 bike and the only difference is the throttle, so I imagine it rides just like a class 1 bike. I’m sure people have legitimate reason for a throttle.



IME there's a lot of difference between most class 2 ebikes and major bicycle brand's ebike offerings, and the main difference is in the power delivery. Most of the class 2's I've ridden deliver full power instantly either by pressing the throttle button or turning the pedals, whereas class 1's and 2's made by Specialized, Trek, etc. regulate the power delivery through torque sensors that try to match the motor power to the riders power input.

Not to cause any more ruckesses but people are correct in calling the pedals a throttle because that's exactly what they are in this situation and there is no regulation regarding the amount of pressure the rider must apply on the pedals to deliver (x) amount of power. Major bike brands seem to be in agreement that rider input should determine the motor power because it makes it feel more like riding a regular bike but on many online ebike brands turning the crank is only a formality to access all available watts


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> but on many online ebike brands turning the crank is only a formality to access all available watts


Really? So the throttle is basically a switch? That seems terrible. I guess it saves money on sensors and software engineers.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

nilswalk said:


> Really? So the throttle is basically a switch? That seems terrible. I guess it saves money on sensors and software engineers.


Just as a matter of clarification an ebike throttle is not _just_ a switch. It is a bit like the dimmer switch you have on a light in your house that varies the amperage so not unlike any type of throttle. However as noted lots of ebikes with throttles are janky due to incorrect settings in the controller with no way to do any adjusting to make them right. Keep in mind that the bulk of Class 2 bikes fit into this category and those are not targeted for use on mtb terrain.

But there are options to control the flow with some of the DIY systems that you can do via hooking a cable up to a computer and accessing a program and filling in the blanks. Bafang, one of the major DIY mid drive systems in use has a simple program that allows for fine control of the throttle mapping for the price of a cord. The TSDZ2 mid drives popular also with DIY'ers that also has torque PAS has a complete set of programming that has been made for it and available via open source that does everything that say the Shimano app does. 

Here is an example of the Bafang throttle template:









For instance when I got my Bafang motored bike the throttle was like putting spurs in a bronco. All it took was some fiddling and now it as tame as an old mare and just gives me a gentle shove to get going but enough to also start off on a steep hill if I mess up a climb. Or if I really mess up I can use it as a nice walk assist. In a 30 mile ride I might get a hundred feet of use out of it but for that I am glad it is on the bars. 

A fun bit of story today I happened to be watching a youtube video on a guy that was buying a hopped up SurRon, which truly are the devil and of no interest to me as a mode of conveyence and have absolutely no business on bike trails I was just bored, and the owner of the hot rodded bike was showing it off at the entrance to the garage and he "whiskey throttled" the thing and it took off with him hanging on and making it even worse until it finally bucked out of his hand. It, and he, landed with a crash on the drive next to his truck and at least one piece of plastic flew off. Hilarious cause the poster made sure to show it in slow motion a few times too. The sale was still made and the last of the vid was the bike sounding like a bag of bolts because a 250lb guy had been flogging it in deep sand all afternoon and messed up the motor but they were still able to pull full block wheelies up and down the street with it.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Bigwheel said:


> Not picking on you but just have never been a fan of the whole Class law system that was put in place by the manufacturers so that they could just put a different charger plug on and sell their EU no throttle reg bikes here. The Federal eBike laws that have been in place for years, basically 750w/20mph are same as Class 1/2. In fact if you look at the PFB color chart there is no difference of allowable access between 1 and 2
> 
> View attachment 1974816
> 
> ...





Bigwheel said:


> Not picking on you but just have never been a fan of the whole Class law system that was put in place by the manufacturers so that they could just put a different charger plug on and sell their EU no throttle reg bikes here. The Federal eBike laws that have been in place for years, basically 750w/20mph are same as Class 1/2. In fact if you look at the PFB color chart there is no difference of allowable access between 1 and 2
> 
> View attachment 1974816
> 
> ...


Never took it as you picking on anyone or me. Thanks for the explaination


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> IME there's a lot of difference between most class 2 ebikes and major bicycle brand's ebike offerings, and the main difference is in the power delivery. Most of the class 2's I've ridden deliver full power instantly either by pressing the throttle button or turning the pedals, whereas class 1's and 2's made by Specialized, Trek, etc. regulate the power delivery through torque sensors that try to match the motor power to the riders power input.
> 
> Not to cause any more ruckesses but people are correct in calling the pedals a throttle because that's exactly what they are in this situation and there is no regulation regarding the amount of pressure the rider must apply on the pedals to deliver (x) amount of power. Major bike brands seem to be in agreement that rider input should determine the motor power because it makes it feel more like riding a regular bike but on many online ebike brands turning the crank is only a formality to access all available watts


Thanks for the clarification, as I only have experience with only Shimano and Brose system. 


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

Hey, earlier I made a comment with a political comparison. My apologies, I didn't realize I was cross a line, won't happen again.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I can't find it right now but I would have sworn that MTBR's rules for ebike discussions within these forums stated that talking about equipment modifications to overcome speed or power limits &/or discussing anything besides legal (class 1) ebikes was grounds for getting banned. Including non-PAS throttles.
=sParty


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Sparticus said:


> I can't find it right now but I would have sworn that MTBR's rules for ebike discussions within these forums stated that talking about equipment modifications to overcome speed or power limits &/or discussing anything besides legal (class 1) ebikes was grounds for getting banned. Including non-PAS throttles.
> =sParty


In the middle: 








A word from E-bike Forum Moderator Mtbbiker - Guidelines


Wanted to mention that we wanted to grow the ebike forum and allow great discussions, especially on products. We'll have some guidelines that we're refining. Something like this: · Ebike forum is for generating a positive experience, no drama or trolls. · This section is for discussion of...




www.mtbr.com


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Nat said:


> In the middle:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, there are many people who don’t understand ebikes. Who come into this ebike forum or post in other subsections. Who believes you can modify the heck out of a class 1 bike from Trek, Specialized, Intense, Santa Cruz, etc…. And all of a sudden, it’s a mini dirt bike, roosting up and down the trail, with at least double the power. You can’t on these ebikes! For educational purposes, I’ll leave up info like that up. I can’t watch this ebike forum 24/7, to catch everything.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

My first response to the original post on this thread was "no way". But recently i've noticed a ton of eMTBs on the trails, and almost all of them 20 or 30 something broskis, not 50-70 year olds. Might be some truth to the trend. It's certainly already the case in some parts of Europe.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Bigwheel said:


> a guy that was buying a hopped up SurRon, which truly are the devil and of no interest to me as a mode of conveyence and have absolutely no business on bike trails


And of course, now we're back to "my motor good, your motor bad". 

There's plenty of trails out there that would be fine for e-motos, in particular 'legacy' trails that were adopted by MTBers from moto trails in the first place as well as basically any doubletrack, and they're an absolute hoot to ride.

Everybody wants to be the last one in before they shut the door behind them...


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

There is always at least one thread like this one going where a handful of the usual suspects are trolling, I'm pretty sure one of the top posters on this forum doesn't even own an ebike so why else are they here?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Tickle said:


> There is always at least one thread like this one going where a handful of the usual suspects are trolling, I'm pretty sure one of the top posters on this forum doesn't even own an ebike so why else are they here?


There is also a number of posters who think any comment that does not praise eBikes is somehow trolling or against the site posting rules. I have seen very little in this thread that breaks the site posting rules or the specific rules of the eBike forum. Posters are allowed to offer opposing views as long as they do it respectfully and without using nonsense comparisons such as claiming a Class 1 Pedelec is the same as a motorcycle.

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and use some good judgement before jumping to conclusions about what a person is stating.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Tickle said:


> There is always at least one thread like this one going where a handful of the usual suspects are trolling, I'm pretty sure one of the top posters on this forum doesn't even own an ebike so why else are they here?


So - the OP's premise - the overtaking of mountain bikes in popularity (by eBikes) is inherently a MTB topic, no? One could just as easily view this as "mountain bikes losing in popularity". It is literally cross-cutting.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Tickle said:


> There is always at least one thread like this one going where a handful of the usual suspects are trolling, I'm pretty sure one of the top posters on this forum doesn't even own an ebike so why else are they here?


You should demand to talk to a manager.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Carl Mega said:


> So - the OP's premise - the overtaking of mountain bikes in popularity (by eBikes) is inherently a MTB topic, no? One could just as easily view this as "mountain bikes losing in popularity". It is literally cross-cutting.


Mountain bikers have no business posting in the Mountain Bike Review forums. Get with the program.



Sparticus said:


> I can't find it right now but I would have sworn that MTBR's rules for ebike discussions within these forums stated that talking about equipment modifications to overcome speed or power limits &/or discussing anything besides legal (class 1) ebikes was grounds for getting banned. Including non-PAS throttles.
> =sParty


I believe that was intended to keep people from posting 'how to' information, which makes sense, not from simply mentioning those things, which is silly.

In the part of the US where I live, all classes of e-bike are equally legal.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

In the cases where e-bikes are permitted, who makes those rules? Here in Michigan, there is an association that bans e-bikes from my primary trail. There is also multi use trails in several state parks but I do not remember seeing signs specific to e-bikes, they just ban motorized vehicles. Living in Michigan, we are flat landers, which may explain why I do not see e-bikes on trails. Is this more common in the mountains where a mountain bike really has to be a mountain bike?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

jimglassford said:


> In the cases where e-bikes are permitted, who makes those rules? Here in Michigan, there is an association that bans e-bikes from my primary trail. There is also multi use trails in several state parks but I do not remember seeing signs specific to e-bikes, they just ban motorized vehicles. Living in Michigan, we are flat landers, which may explain why I do not see e-bikes on trails. Is this more common in the mountains where a mountain bike really has to be a mountain bike?


That is a a discussion for this section: Trail Building and Advocacy


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

rtonthat said:


> I dont have an ebike so never paid attention to the signs. I may consider getting one down the line when or if it becomes widely accepted on the trails. In the meantime, Im more than happy sweatin up the climbs. I have nothing against them, just think they are unnecessary while Im still able to grind.


You should read the signs. 

What if they say: "E-Bike Only Trail!".


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Trolling by any other name...

I could care less if you guys like to hangout here, have fun!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Tickle said:


> Trolling by any other name...
> 
> I could care less if you guys like to hangout here, have fun!


Just because you see things differently does not make other posters trolls.

Now if someone comes in here and says things like all eBikers are fat n lazy or all eBikes are exactly the same as Motorcycles, then yes, they are purposely trolling and in violation of the section posting rules. Is that what you are experiancing? If so please report the posts in question so they come to the attention of the moderators.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Suns_PSD said:


> You should read the signs.
> 
> What if they say: "E-Bike Only Trail!".


I'd be worried to try an ebike only trail as a bike rider (sorry, I meant "Naturally Aspirated bike rider", or something like that, since I think we're supposed to come up with new terms for bikes/ebikes every few few weeks right?). I'd be afraid I'd be hiking the whole thing.

Maybe I'm projecting. But I'm just visualizing a climb trail that would be neigh on un-climbable without the addition of 250-750 additional watts. And while I'm not above hiking my bike if I need to when I'm gassed or when the trail is really steep/chunky, if there was another normal climb trail that I could expect to actually ride to the top, vs the option of taking an ebike climbing trail... personally I'd be taking the normal one every time (with my normal bike).

But I could see the appeal of ebike only climb trails in some areas, as you could take a more direct (steeper, less switchbacks) route that most normal bikes couldn't/wouldn't want to use, and thus cut your time spent climbing even more.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Anyone know if the same trend is happening on the road? I don't mean commuters, I mean more hardcore cyclist. Somehow, I kind of doubt it.


I think the issue is there are two types of mountain bikers, those that love riding a bicycle and those that love riding a bicycle down hills. Neither group gets the other one.

Why would you enjoy climbing?

Why would you want to miss out on the full experience, it's like having sex with no foreplay!

So sParty and others fall into the love riding a bike group. Sure, they can enjoy riding an ebike, it still provides part of that experience, even enhances one aspect. But it doesn't provide the full experience so they still prefer a traditional mountain bike.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> I think the issue is there are two types of mountain bikers, those that love riding a bicycle and those that love riding a bicycle down hills.


Did you mean 'up'?


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

chazpat said:


> Anyone know if the same trend is happening on the road? I don't mean commuters, I mean more hardcore cyclist. Somehow, I kind of doubt it.
> 
> 
> I think the issue is there are two types of mountain bikers, those that love riding a bicycle and those that love riding a bicycle down hills. Neither group gets the other one.
> ...


Good point and interesting perspective, Chaz. Hadn't thought about it in exactly those terms before but I feel you're right on.
I'm replying because you called me out. 

Many times on these forums I've stated I like all three kinds of bikes (pedal, ebike and dirt bike) and further, that I consider each kind of biking a disparate sport from the others.
Which I do.
But yeah, I love to climb while riding my mountain bike.
Other times I just want to rage through the woods with lazy legs. 
That's fun, too. I might be tired from the previous day's cycling effort.
On those days I take the ebike or the moto and fly.

Because of my opinion about the optimum experience from ebikes, I almost always ride mine in turbo mode (the most powerful setting.)
I love letting that thing do all the work while riding up steep hills at 2-3x the speed I can muster aboard my mountain bike.
Meanwhile if I want exercise, I'll ride a mountain bike.

I consider the ebike a pretty good cross between my mountain bike and my dirt bike -- the ebike weighs 200 lbs less than my dirt bike (!) yet is powerful enough to allow me to slack while riding.
So I enjoy the ebike for what it is and am lucky enough to ride in sparsely populated areas so I can largely get away with Jedi speeder style riding.
That said, I do watch my sight lines and am always anticipating the possibility of a horse or hiker around the next corner. Don't want to be 'that guy.'

In the end if I had to give two of the three up, I'd let the dirt bike and the ebike go. Mountain biking is in my blood.
I find much personal satisfaction in riding a machine that makes its motor stronger every time it's ridden. 
That, plus the mountain bike remains the most fun way for me to enjoy trails, up or down.
=sParty

P.S. There's one application at which the ebike excels and makes me hope I never get rid of mine -- this is trailwork. I hook my tool-toting BOB trailer up to the ebike and quickly get into places that might take me hours to hike into. Plus I can carry way more tools on the BOB/ebike including rock bar, e-chainsaw, Pulaski, Terra Hoe, etc., not to mention plenty of hydration, nutrition and let's not forget the all important boombox.  I've come to regard my ebike as the most important trailwork tool I own.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

chazpat said:


> I think the issue is there are two types of mountain bikers, those that love riding a bicycle and those that love riding a bicycle down hills. Neither group gets the other one.


I like riding my bike uphill but I think I'd like it more with a motor boost. 




chazpat said:


> Why would you want to miss out on the full experience, it's like having sex with no foreplay!


Is either option bad?


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Nat said:


> Is either option bad?


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Sparticus said:


> But yeah, I love to climb while riding my mountain bike.
> Other times I just want to rage through the woods with lazy legs.
> That's fun, too. I might be tired from the previous day's cycling effort.
> On those days I take the ebike and fly.
> ...


Right on, quoting the parts that echo my sentiment. I started mountain biking over 30 years ago, love the masochistic element of good suffer fest climbs in the mountains. I would also give up the E-MTB if I had to pick one, but luckily, I don't have to.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Klurejr said:


> Just because you see things differently does not make other posters trolls.
> 
> Now if someone comes in here and says things like all eBikers are fat n lazy or all eBikes are exactly the same as Motorcycles, then yes, they are purposely trolling and in violation of the section posting rules. Is that what you are experiancing? If so please report the posts in question so they come to the attention of the moderators.


I ain't no rat!  Plus I don't care enough to bother. Only reason I posted that first comment was cause someone posted the rules and I thought it was appropriate given the very first rule! If you mods want to let em go fine whatev's just don't get the "I'm anti ebike but I'm gonna hangout on the ebike forum" part.


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

Tickle said:


> I ain't no rat!  Plus I don't care enough to bother. Only reason I posted that first comment was cause someone posted the rules and I thought it was appropriate given the very first rule! If you mods want to let em go fine whatev's just don't get the "I'm anti ebike but I'm gonna hangout on the ebike forum" part.


I am totally new to emtb'ing, but been riding mtb for 30 years. I get the arguments, but I didn't think people were so against them, no matter the trail. Heck, I hardly see anyone on the trails when I ride, and if I do it's fine whether it's an emtb or other, none of my business. I guess maybe because on the west coast it's crowded, therefore guys seem to be hypersensitive on the emtb issue. I get it, especially in Cali, where every little thing is highly regulated, and you have to fight for mtb access. My point is, I'm an mtb enthusiast 1st, and now own a emtb. Does that now make me fat and lazy ? Heck, I'm already old @ 63, but can hang pretty good with younger dudes. I will use my emtb to get back in shape after double hernia surgery, and dealing with Lyme disease, and my wife will ride it when she wants, and I'll ride my mtb. Btw, it's a class 1 Orbea Rise, and it does take effort to ride it. People need to chill out a bit, imo...


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

PS mtb said:


> I am totally new to emtb'ing, but been riding mtb for 30 years. I get the arguments, but I didn't think people were so against them, no matter the trail. Heck, I hardly see anyone on the trails when I ride, and if I do it's fine whether it's an emtb or other, none of my business. I guess maybe because on the west coast it's crowded, therefore guys seem to be hypersensitive on the emtb issue. I get it, especially in Cali, where every little thing is highly regulated, and you have to fight for mtb access. My point is, I'm an mtb enthusiast 1st, and now own a emtb. Does that now make me fat and lazy ? Heck, I'm already old @ 63, but can hang pretty good with younger dudes. I will use my emtb to get back in shape after double hernia surgery, and dealing with Lyme disease, and my wife will ride it when she wants, and I'll ride my mtb. Btw, it's a class 1 Orbea Rise, and it does take effort to ride it. People need to chill out a bit, imo...


Yes, this forum in no way represents the experience we have riding in areas around the western US and Canada. We have never had a negative comment on the emtbs. Oops, I can think of one. Riding the Going to the Sun highway in Glacier NP. A couple of young bucks made sarcastic comments to my wife. They felt like a$$e$ when she told them of her spinal issues. Otherwise, only the positive.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Thankfully, it's not like there's some rule against us fat old lazy guys riding bikes, e- or otherwise.


My dad, who's 78, just called me a few minutes ago after his very first trail ride on his brand new (also first) e-bike. 
He had a knee rebuilt last year, is overweight and a pretty well-worn in a number of other ways as well and he's ALL fired up about it. 
I can guarantee it's not only going to help keep him riding, but get him out a lot more.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

russinthecascades said:


> Yes, this forum in no way represents the experience we have riding in areas around the western US and Canada. We have never had a negative comment on the emtbs.


FWIW I see very, very few comments in this thread that could be construed as anti-ebike.


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

slapheadmofo said:


> FWIW I see very, very few comments in this thread that could be construed as anti-ebike.


I agree, but after reading several other threads on emtb's, and trail access issues, I thought I would comment...


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

russinthecascades said:


> Yes, this forum in no way represents the experience we have riding in areas around the western US and Canada. We have never had a negative comment on the emtbs. Oops, I can think of one. Riding the Going to the Sun highway in Glacier NP. A couple of young bucks made sarcastic comments to my wife. They felt like a$$e$ when she told them of her spinal issues. Otherwise, only the positive.


The only comments we ever get throughout western Canada on our e-fatties are people telling us they want one. Not all of them are wearing Depends either.


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

mtnbkrmike said:


> The only comments we ever get throughout western Canada on our e-fatties are people telling us they want one. Not all of them are wearing Depends either.


Lol.


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> FWIW I see very, very few comments in this thread that could be construed as anti-ebike.


Yeah, that's why I said "forum". There many positive comments/threads, but there are also many negative, non-supportive comments throughout the forum - not that it's of any surprise. I was just commenting that this doesn't match our real world experience.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Wherever they are, it's not the off road areas in "OC". Last weekend my wife and I saw at 50 - 100 bikes in two days of MTB and only three were "e".


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## dvsone81 (Oct 12, 2021)

Sadly, South Lake Tahoe has a lot of anti-emtb “bruhs.” Everywhere else, no problems at all with ebikes.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

dvsone81 said:


> Sadly, South Lake Tahoe has a lot of anti-emtb “bruhs.” Everywhere else, no problems at all with ebikes.


EVERYwhere else?


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## dvsone81 (Oct 12, 2021)

Sorry, everywhere else in the surrounding area—their anti-emtb stance is quite hostile as a matter of fact.


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## rtonthat (11 mo ago)

Seems like those with ebikes are having to justify why they have one. Why? As long as they are ridden on legal trails and good trail etiquette is practiced, who gives a rat? Its your money and your enjoyment.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Tall BMX'r said:


> The jumps on the PA was just straight off and land. I'm used to hopping my bike into the air and crossing it up. I don't see any PA bikes doing anything other than going straight over gap jumps, level ups, or any other jumps.
> My friend rides about 5 miles from his house and meets me at the bike park. We do a couple of loops (7 to 8 miles and 1,000 feet elevation on average) and I'm beat. He rides home another 5 miles. I'm dripping sweat, he's not.
> Would I have more fun on a PA mtb? I don't know.... The jumps would not be as fun for sure...


Come to North Carolina to Kanuga bike park and you see plenty of ebikes moving around in the air...… There are pro riders here that use ebikes for training. The skill level of the younger kids is quite impressive too.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

CRM6 said:


> Come to North Carolina to Kanuga bike park and you see plenty of ebikes moving around in the air...… There are pro riders here that use ebikes for training. The skill level of the younger kids is quite impressive too.


Some people just have skills no matter what they do or ride


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Some people just have skills no matter what they do or ride


You are correct.... And those without skills shouldn't try and limit those who do


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


> Thankfully, it's not like there's some rule against us fat old lazy guys riding bikes, e- or otherwise.
> 
> 
> My dad, who's 78, just called me a few minutes ago after his very first trail ride on his brand new (also first) e-bike.
> ...


They don't make protective riding gear that will prevent a broken hip... Tell dad to take it easy on the loose stuff and don't put his foot down while moving....


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## fredman1085 (10 mo ago)

jackshack said:


> Just read through the pages and this thread reminds me of the iPhone VS Android battles. I own both types of bikes and I see the value in both - just like the phones but I end up riding the one that I enjoy more, which has been the emtb. I used to get that"accomplish" feeling mentioned here regarding going up hills but now I get the excitement feeling going up. It's just a completely different experience. *I get the feeling that most emtb haters think that ALL emtb riders set their bikes to full power and just blast everywhere they go*, which some may very well do, *but I find that I'm always trying to keep the assist at a level that will keep my ride fun but also keeps it a workout and still a challenge. *At 54 I am very thankful that I can afford one and since I was never allowed to own a dirt bike as a kid I am fulfilling my dream of having a sortof dirtbike that I can ride as a bike or throw it in full power mode AND I can ride it anywhere in my area of the country without drawing attention to myself. I don't get out west too often but I don't understand why these would be illegal on the trails. Mine is very quiet and looks very much like a regular mtb.


Couldn't agree more. I'm new to this e-bike thing but I have to say I love my bike. My Rail has four levels of assist. At first I was using mainly level 3 but I find I can have as much fun and a great workout on level 2. (Emtb vs. Tour respectively). Unless it's a mother of a steep hill, I leave Turbo alone unless I'm riding home, then it's just street riding anyway. I have to admit, I'm very disappointed at the venom from our own fellow cyclists. Whether it's your cup of tea or not, people have become far too judgmental about others in the last several years. I remember when cyclists actually waved at each other on the road or trail. Stopped to lend assistance or at least ask if some was needed, and would actually slow down on occasion to talk to a complete stranger. That's all gone now


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

fredman1085 said:


> I remember when cyclists actually waved at each other on the road or trail. Stopped to lend assistance or at least ask if some was needed, and would actually slow down on occasion to talk to a complete stranger. That's all gone now


None of that is gone in SoCal, heck all the trail users are friendly with eachother. Just this past Tuesday my buddy and I had a really nice conversation with a lady riding a mule.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

CRM6 said:


> You are correct.... And those without skills shouldn't try and limit those who do


Uh, that didn't mean what you meant it to mean.


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## markloch (Jul 15, 2021)

fredman1085 said:


> Couldn't agree more. I'm new to this e-bike thing but I have to say I love my bike. My Rail has four levels of assist. At first I was using mainly level 3 but I find I can have as much fun and a great workout on level 2. (Emtb vs. Tour respectively). Unless it's a mother of a steep hill, I leave Turbo alone unless I'm riding home, then it's just street riding anyway. I have to admit, I'm very disappointed at the venom from our own fellow cyclists. Whether it's your cup of tea or not, people have become far too judgmental about others in the last several years. I remember when cyclists actually waved at each other on the road or trail. Stopped to lend assistance or at least ask if some was needed, and would actually slow down on occasion to talk to a complete stranger. That's all gone now


There's a "Tour+" that replaces "Tour" (will still say "Tour" on the controller), you dealer can change it for you - give it a try, it's quite a bit less than emtb setting but has similar characteristics (whereas regular "Tour" feels like "Eco+" to me). Trek/Bosch also has "Emtb-lite" to replace "Tour" (again will say "Tour" on the controller") but I thought it was too close to Emtb. Tour+ is a happy medium.


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## rtonthat (11 mo ago)

Klurejr said:


> None of that is gone in SoCal, heck all the trail users are friendly with eachother. Just this past Tuesday my buddy and I had a really nice conversation with a lady riding a mule.


Agreed. I meet and chat with someone almost every time Im on the trails here, despite age or type of bike. Roadies on the other hand seem to be too focused on their cadence, strava, or watts to pay much attention to other riders.


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## markloch (Jul 15, 2021)

rtonthat said:


> Agreed. I meet and chat with someone almost every time Im on the trails here, despite age or type of bike. Roadies on the other hand seem to be too focused on their cadence, strava, or watts to pay much attention to other riders.





Klurejr said:


> None of that is gone in SoCal, heck all the trail users are friendly with eachother. Just this past Tuesday my buddy and I had a really nice conversation with a lady riding a mule.


People are friendly up in NorCal too! Chatted with a few people today, some gravel bikers, a women walking her horse, some hikers showing an interest in the emtb.


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## maynard4130 (May 12, 2019)

First let me say I have never ridden one, and I’ve been very anti-ebike myself, BUT I am listening with an open mind. Part of my job is working with the trails and open space coalition in the parks establishing the rules and regulations for trail use. Ebikes are a hot topic on the front range and trying to get an honest assessment of potential damage to our trails is needed. I would imagine that most of the members here are using lower powered pedal assist bikes, but the average guy out there who doesn’t care about fitness or trail damage will probably want whatever is easiest to pull them around. If pedal assist bikes truly are becoming the majority, I would think the evolution of that would be higher powered throttle bikes will become the majority. Regardless if they are “illegal” or not (class 1 vs class 2, class 3), I can tell you working for the parks department that most individuals do not care and will do whatever they like because the rules on hundreds of miles of trails are nearly impossible to enforce.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

maynard4130 said:


> I can tell you working for the parks department that _most individuals_ do not care and will do whatever they like because the rules on hundreds of miles of trails are nearly impossible to enforce.


I hope you really mean '_some individuals'_ because most people are law abiding citizens that try to play by the rules.


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## maynard4130 (May 12, 2019)

Jack7782 said:


> I hope you really mean '_some individuals'_ because most people are law abiding citizens that try to play by the rules.


Good point. I can get a little jaded at times fixing what the public destroys.

I instruct my crew to enforce the leash law for pets. It feels like “most” sometimes.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

maynard4130 said:


> I would imagine that most of the members here are using lower powered pedal assist bikes, but the average guy out there who doesn’t care about fitness or trail damage will probably want whatever is easiest to pull them around. If pedal assist bikes truly are becoming the majority, I would think the evolution of that would be higher powered throttle bikes will become the majority. Regardless if they are “illegal” or not (class 1 vs class 2, class 3),


Just to be clear with classes, the difference between Class 1 and Class 2 is just the throttle. They both potentially can have up to 1 HP and a top motor assisted speed of 20 MPH. Earlier in this discussion, allowing Class 1 and not Class 2 on trails was debated. To me, it appeared that certain riders who have a pedal only bike would prefer not to see e-bikes on the trails. Some with Class 1 e-bikes preferred not to have any class 2 e-bikes on the trail. Everyone has an opinion and to me that difference seems hypocritical. 

*Class 1:* have only pedal assistance up to 20mph.
*Class 2:* have pedal assistance up to 20mph + throttle assistance up to 20mph.
*Class 3:* have pedal assistance up to 28mph + may or may not have throttle assistance up to 20mph.
*Class 4:* may have a top speed of over 28mph and motor wattage over 750W.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Jack7782 said:


> I hope you really mean '_some individuals'_ because most people are law abiding citizens that try to play by the rules.


I'll go with "most".

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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

maynard4130 said:


> First let me say I have never ridden one, and I’ve been very anti-ebike myself, BUT I am listening with an open mind. Part of my job is working with the trails and open space coalition in the parks establishing the rules and regulations for trail use. Ebikes are a hot topic on the front range and trying to get an honest assessment of potential damage to our trails is needed. I would imagine that most of the members here are using lower powered pedal assist bikes, but the average guy out there who doesn’t care about fitness or trail damage will probably want whatever is easiest to pull them around. If pedal assist bikes truly are becoming the majority, I would think the evolution of that would be higher powered throttle bikes will become the majority. Regardless if they are “illegal” or not (class 1 vs class 2, class 3), I can tell you working for the parks department that most individuals do not care and will do whatever they like because the rules on hundreds of miles of trails are nearly impossible to enforce.





Jack7782 said:


> I hope you really mean '_some individuals'_ because most people are law abiding citizens that try to play by the rules.


I would think most, if not all old school mountain bikers that ride emtb are law abiding and friendly, and are also taxpayers. We all have a right to access like everyone else, period !


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

PS mtb said:


> I would think most, if not all old school mountain bikers that ride emtb are law abiding and friendly, and are also taxpayers. We all have a right to access like everyone else, period !


Now get off my lawn!


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

PS mtb said:


> We all have a right to access like everyone else, period !


Access isn't a right. It's a privilege. Period.

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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

maynard4130 said:


> I would imagine that most of the members here are using lower powered pedal assist bikes, but the average guy out there who doesn’t care about fitness or trail damage will probably want whatever is easiest to pull them around. If pedal assist bikes truly are becoming the majority, I would think the evolution of that would be higher powered throttle bikes will become the majority. Regardless if they are “illegal” or not (class 1 vs class 2, class 3), I can tell you working for the parks department that most individuals do not care and will do whatever they like because the rules on hundreds of miles of trails are nearly impossible to enforce.


You really need to learn about ebike classes, what they are and there limits is set in stone. We are talking about a class 1 ebike, assist up to 20mph and under 1hp by pedaling only. They can not do burnouts and studies from other places that do allow Ebikes state trail erosion is similar to a mountain bike. 

There is no making these Ebikes more powerful and honestly, this is more than enough power. I have yet to say, man I wish I had more power. As a matter of fact, light weight Ebikes are becoming more popular than ever, lighter weight and less power. I just don’t see this more power happening with the majority of people, just one off idiots. I doubt these one off idiots have the talent/skill to ride the ebike well. 

Again, more power only makes a person faster going up a smooth incline, no where else. More power does not make a person faster everywhere else. There’s something called skill that comes to mind. 

Where I ride, dirt bikes are around. My brother on his YT Decoy came up to a downhill where 3 guys on dirt bikes just started the DH. He hounded them all the way down the trail. This trail is not a super tight trail. These dirt bikes had at least 30 time more power. 

And again as a hiker, the only time I have had run ins with bikes are when bikes are coming down hill. Never while they are climbing. I’m pretty sure this is where the majority of complaints come from is downhill speeds, not climbing speeds. 


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

mtbbiker said:


> this is more than enough power.


Said no motorhead ever...


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Nat said:


> Said no motorhead ever...


This is probably some of the misconceptions that people who are against Ebikes have. 

Even though this has an extremely small motor, I don’t consider it a motor bike, instead an ebike. I don’t have that mentality of bigger motor. I can’t speak for all, but I can point to trends that agree with my sentiments. 

Low powered Ebikes are becoming more popular than ever: Kenevo/Levo SL, Orbea Rise and many more are selling well. These are more like class .5 Ebikes. 


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

fredman1085 said:


> I remember when cyclists actually waved at each other on the road or trail. Stopped to lend assistance or at least ask if some was needed, and would actually slow down on occasion to talk to a complete stranger. That's all gone now


Not gone where I ride.  Stopped and talked with two different bikers on yesterdays ride. Pretty much always run into someone to talk to when out mountain biking in Tahoe. Unless they are on an ebike. They don’t seem to want to talk at all and just keep riding by quite fast.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

mtbbiker said:


> This is probably some of the misconceptions that people who are against Ebikes have.
> 
> Even though this has an extremely small motor, I don’t consider it a motor bike, instead an ebike. I don’t have that mentality of bigger motor. I can’t speak for all, but I can point to trends that agree with my sentiments.
> 
> ...


Here’s the thing. There _are_ people out there (e.g., me) who want to go fast and will mod their vehicles to gain more power. Maybe not you but definitely others. Speed is awesome. I’m definitely pro-ebike. I just need more places to ride before I buy one.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

mtbbiker said:


> You really need to learn about ebike classes, what they are and there limits is set in stone.


ebike classes are for lawyers and only play a roll here on Internet forums. Out in the real world there is just ebikes. No one, but a super tiny crowd of people, know that there are different types of classes. I see all types of ebikes from PAS to rad power bikes with throttles, Luna cycle full sus emtbs with throttles, all the way up to powerfull stealth ebikes out on trails. Why, because there is no practical way to enforce what type of classes of ebikes can ride a trail, therefore classes are useless.

We can say that a stealth ebike is not an ebike, but an emoto instead all day long here in the virtual world, but it has zero effect on the real world. I can head into the stealth ebike shop in town right now and they will ask me if I want to buy an ebike. My brother in law who races endurance motocross has a surron. Do you think he would ever call that thing a moto? No, it’s his “ebike”. Classes don’t mean shat.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

singletrackmack said:


> ebike classes are for lawyers and only play a roll here on Internet forums. Out in the real world there is just ebikes. No one, but a super tiny crowd of people, know that there are different types of classes. I see all types of ebikes from PAS to rad power bikes with throttles, Luna cycle full sus emtbs with throttles, all the way up to powerfull stealth ebikes out on trails. Why, because there is no practical way to enforce what type of classes of ebikes can ride a trail, therefore classes are useless.
> 
> We can say that a stealth ebike is not an ebike, but an emoto instead all day long here in the virtual world, but it has zero effect on the real world. I can head into the stealth ebike shop in town right now and they will ask me if I want to buy an ebike. My brother in law who races endurance motocross has a surron. Do you think he would ever call that thing a moto? No, it’s his “ebike”. Classes don’t mean shat.


I see all kinds of Ebikes as well, but mostly commuter Ebikes. My local trail in So Ca is probably one of the busiest around and I rarely see anything but class 1 Ebikes. Occasionally Surrons and that’s rare. Where are you at that you are see all these other classes? 


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

mtbbiker said:


> I see all kinds of Ebikes as well, but mostly commuter Ebikes. My local trail in So Ca is probably one of the busiest around and I rarely see anything but class 1 Ebikes. Occasionally Surrons and that’s rare. Where are you at that you are see all these other classes?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am in Tahoe. Not too much commuting on bikes here. Lots of fat ebikes and stealth ebikes as there is a stealth ebike shop in town. Lots of tourist who bring their fat tire throttle ebikes up to ride around and on the trails when they come to visit. It is confusing because in the Tahoe basin you are allowed to ride any class of ebikes on singletrack on the Nevada side, throttle up and no problem. The rest of the basin in california ebikes are not allowed on single track, except for very few trails and those are supposed to be ”class 1” only. So, it’s just ebikes up here. No one give a shat if you are an elitist and will only ride the super expensive 1st class ebikes, or if you are not able to afford a 1st class ebike and instead ride a much less expensive 2nd class ebike like a rad ebike instead.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

singletrackmack said:


> I am in Tahoe. Not too much commuting on bikes here. Lots of fat ebikes and stealth ebikes as there is a stealth ebike shop in town. Lots of tourist who bring their fat tire throttle ebikes up to ride around and on the trails when they come to visit. It is confusing because in the Tahoe basin you are allowed to ride any class of ebikes on singletrack on the Nevada side, throttle up and no problem. The rest of the basin in california ebikes are not allowed on single track, except for very few trails and those are supposed to be ”class 1” only. So, it’s just ebikes up here. No one give a shat if you are an elitist and will only ride the super expensive 1st class ebikes, or if you are not able to afford a 1st class ebike and instead ride a much less expensive 2nd class ebike like a rad ebike instead.


Class 1 bikes come in many price ranges. If you’re interested in an emtb from the big bike companies, then class 1 is the only ones for sale. I don’t think anyone is trying to be an elitest snob. I just bought a Specialized Kenevo Comp. with tax about $6100. Yes, expensive, but when compared to an S-Work at $15k. I think it’s a bargain. 


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

singletrackmack said:


> I am in Tahoe. Not too much commuting on bikes here. Lots of fat ebikes and stealth ebikes as there is a stealth ebike shop in town. Lots of tourist who bring their fat tire throttle ebikes up to ride around and on the trails when they come to visit. It is confusing because in the Tahoe basin you are allowed to ride any class of ebikes on singletrack on the Nevada side, throttle up and no problem. The rest of the basin in california ebikes are not allowed on single track, except for very few trails and those are supposed to be ”class 1” only. So, it’s just ebikes up here. No one give a shat if you are an elitist and will only ride the super expensive 1st class ebikes, or if you are not able to afford a 1st class ebike and instead ride a much less expensive 2nd class ebike like a rad ebike instead.


Elitist ? Wow, because we have worked hard and can afford one ? Would someone be an Elitist riding a 10k Yeti ?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

mtbbiker said:


> Class 1 bikes come in many price ranges. If you’re interested in an emtb from the big bike companies, then class 1 is the only ones for sale. I don’t think anyone is trying to be an elitest snob. I just bought a Specialized Kenevo Comp. with tax about $6100. Yes, expensive, but when compared to an S-Work at $15k. I think it’s a bargain.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just wondering — at what price point does elitist snobbery start? Asking for a friend.


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

Nat said:


> Just wondering — at what price point does elitist snobbery start? Asking for a friend.


Anything over what he paid I guess...


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

It's not the price, it is when you laminate the price tag and leave it on the bike while riding.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Nat said:


> Just wondering — at what price point does elitist snobbery start? Asking for a friend.


At what point do we call mountain bikers who look down at ebikers trolls or elitist snob? Asking for ebikers on this ebike forum who have to put up with condensing posts. 


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> At what point do we call mountain bikers who look down at ebikers trolls or elitist snob?


I passed that point quite awhile ago myself, as well as the point where I call out Class1 elitist snobs for looking down on other motorized trail users, e- or otherwise.
Not like there's a big shortage of that particular style of hypocrisy to be found either.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> I passed that point quite awhile ago myself, as well as the point where I call out Class1 elitist snobs for looking down on other motorized trail users, e- or otherwise.
> Not like there's a big shortage of that particular style of hypocrisy to be found either.


Where would you like to draw the line? About 2yrs ago, every post turned into a battle. Would you like to go back to those days? 


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

If it gets people off the couch and on a trail, great. Some people have more money to spend. I don't see pedal assist bikes as any threat or status symbol, just people climbing the hills easier and getting more laps in. Maybe a little jealous of the extra laps part.....


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

mtbbiker said:


> At what point do we call mountain bikers who look down at ebikers trolls or elitist snob? Asking for ebikers on this ebike forum who have to put up with condensing posts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey, you’re the one who brought up elitism. Maybe the answer is within?


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Nat said:


> Hey, you’re the one who brought up elitism. Maybe the answer is within?





Nat said:


> Hey, you’re the one who brought up elitism. Maybe the answer is within?


Actually, it was the poster before me. I guess I need to mention class 2 ebikes more often with throttles. 


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

mtbbiker said:


> At what point do we call mountain bikers who look down at ebikers trolls or elitist snob? Asking for ebikers on this ebike forum who have to put up with condensing posts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just want to know what a "condensing" post is?

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> Where would you like to draw the line? About 2yrs ago, every post turned into a battle. Would you like to go back to those days?


No idea what that has to do with what I said.

What I'm talking about is some dudes with little motors on their bikes looking down on other dudes with the little motors on their bikes while at the same time complaining about dudes with no motors on their bikes looking down on them.  

Irony is dead.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> I just want to know what a "condensing" post is?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


Got to love it when you get the attention of spelling/grammar trolls


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> No idea what that has to do with what I said.
> 
> What I'm talking about is some dudes with little motors on their bikes looking down on other dudes with the little motors on their bikes while at the same time complaining about dudes with no motors on their bikes looking down on them.
> 
> Irony is dead.


Like I said, can’t make everyone happy. I ride with bikers and ebikers. Unfortunately no one in my group has a class 2 ebike. All the ebikers I ride with are from the major bike manufacturers and they only produce class 1 bikes. 

But if someone had a class 2 ebike, they are more then welcomed to come along. 


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> Like I said, can’t make everyone happy. I ride with bikers and ebikers. Unfortunately no one in my group has a class 2 ebike. All the ebikers I ride with are from the major bike manufacturers and they only produce class 1 bikes.
> 
> But if someone had a class 2 ebike, they are more then welcomed to come along.


That's great, but I'm talking about here on this forum.
Been noticing that 'Class1 elitism' is a thing, and it makes me laugh.
At, not with.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> That's great, but I'm talking about here on this forum.
> Been noticing that 'Class1 elitism' is a thing, and it makes me laugh.
> At, not with.


We do promote both class 1 and 2. I just think majority of the riders here own class 1 Ebikes and that’s why class 1 is the most talked about. 


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

mtbbiker said:


> Got to love it when you get the attention of spelling/grammar trolls
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Must be constant for you. 

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> We do promote both class 1 and 2. I just think majority of the riders here own class 1 Ebikes and that’s why class 1 is the most talked about.


I've seen a number of Class 1 riders commenting on the laziness, etc of Class 2 riders.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> Must be constant for you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


Wow, still trolling with nothing to add? Please stay out of this post unless you can add something of value. 


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> I've seen a number of Class 1 riders commenting on the laziness, etc of Class 2 riders.


In the future, PM the thread over to me and I’ll look the comments over. 
Thanks 


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

singletrackmack said:


> Not gone where I ride.  Stopped and talked with two different bikers on yesterdays ride. Pretty much always run into someone to talk to when out mountain biking in Tahoe. Unless they are on an ebike. They don’t seem to want to talk at all and just keep riding by quite fast.


Not true, I'll talk to you

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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Nat said:


> Here’s the thing. There _are_ people out there (e.g., me) who want to go fast and will mod their vehicles to gain more power. Maybe not you but definitely others. Speed is awesome. I’m definitely pro-ebike. I just need more places to ride before I buy one.


I have a bosch e bike and i never ride in turbo. Too hard to control in technical singletrack, plus battery life.

I never felt the need for more power.

Now cars, it's different. I always modified them for more power 

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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

singletrackmack said:


> I am in Tahoe. Not too much commuting on bikes here. Lots of fat ebikes and stealth ebikes as there is a stealth ebike shop in town. Lots of tourist who bring their fat tire throttle ebikes up to ride around and on the trails when they come to visit. It is confusing because in the Tahoe basin you are allowed to ride any class of ebikes on singletrack on the Nevada side, throttle up and no problem. The rest of the basin in california ebikes are not allowed on single track, except for very few trails and those are supposed to be ”class 1” only. So, it’s just ebikes up here. No one give a shat if you are an elitist and will only ride the super expensive 1st class ebikes, or if you are not able to afford a 1st class ebike and instead ride a much less expensive 2nd class ebike like a rad ebike instead.


I'm in Tahoe too and all i ever see is class 1 bikes.
On paved bike trails, sure, lots of people going mach 1 on throttle e bikes, no helmets.
But not on single track.

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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

rod9301 said:


> I have a bosch e bike and i never ride in turbo. Too hard to control in technical singletrack, plus battery life.


How about on flow trails?


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Nat said:


> How about on flow trails?





rod9301 said:


> I have a bosch e bike and i never ride in turbo. Too hard to control in technical singletrack, plus battery life.
> Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


I love my Tazer in boost on technical trails! The assist really helps get over obsticles...
On flow trails I keep my bike on boost or trail. When speeds stay under 20 or a slight incline the pedal assist helps keep the speed up!


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Nat said:


> How about on flow trails?


Nat, you just don’t understand. Buy a class 1 ebike from: Trek, Intense, Specialized, Giant, Orbea, Marin, YT, Etc... 1st off, you’ll see for mountain biking there is plenty of power.

2nd try to give one of these ebikes more power! Think about it, you have under 750watts of power, now let’s double it to a 1500watts about 2hp. You still can’t do burnout, you just cut your range in 1/2 and your going to blow up your motor.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

mtbbiker said:


> Nat, you just don’t understand. Buy a class 1 ebike from: Trek, Intense, Specialized, Giant, Orbea, Marin, YT, Etc... 1st off, you’ll see for mountain biking there is plenty of power.
> 
> 2nd try to give one of these ebikes more power! Think about it, you have under 750watts of power, now let’s double it to a 1500watts about 2hp. You still can’t do burnout, you just cut your range in 1/2 and your going to blow up your motor.


I guess I'll just have find out.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Aren't most trails class 1 only? 

*A word from E-bike Forum Moderator Mtbbiker - Guidelines*

_· Let's talk about legal only trails. Any talk about illegal riding can be deleted at moderators discretion_

Isn't discussion of class 2 on trails then a violation of these forum's guidelines?


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Going on an ebike ride! Temporarily locking thread as this thread is getting hot again. I guess some people don’t like to hear how popular Ebikes are becoming. 


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Let’s focus back on topic I started ebiking about 2.5yrs ago and at the time I didn’t see many other ebikers. I just got back from my local extremely popular So Ca riding location. I saw almost as many ebikers as I did regular bikers. This is what’s happening in a lot of locations. 

Quite a few ebikers use to be like many of the anti-ebike riders that we see here posting in the ebike forum. Dead set against Ebikes, until they are not. All the back and forth arguing won’t change any one’s mind. People of all ages and conditioning are ebiking. This might come as a surprise to some of you, but not everyone cares about being in mountain bike shape. You still get a great workout 

Enough with this crazy argument that Ebikes don’t have a motor. We all know they have a motor, that’s what the “E “ stands for in “E”bike. But it is a motor that puts out less than 1hp. The majority of EMTBs out there run Bosch, Brose, Shimano, or Yamaha motors. You simply can’t make these have more than 1hp, the electronics in them can’t handle more amperage then 1hp. This is a rule for class 1 through 3 Ebikes. 

Let’s keep this thread focused and on track! All other posts will be deleted.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

mtbbiker said:


> Let’s focus back on topic I started ebiking about 2.5yrs ago and at the time I didn’t see many other ebikers. I just got back from my local extremely popular So Ca riding location. I saw almost as many ebikers as I did regular bikers. This is what’s happening in a lot of locations.
> 
> Quite a few ebikers use to be like many of the anti-ebike riders that we see here posting in the ebike forum. Dead set against Ebikes, until they are not. All the back and forth arguing won’t change any one’s mind. People of all ages and conditioning are ebiking. This might come as a surprise to some of you, but not everyone cares about being in mountain bike shape. You still get a great workout
> 
> ...


But you'll welcome class 2 ebikes on your rides with open arms? You did say that.

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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

I’m following the lead of @Sparticus and using my e-fattie over the next several months exclusively for trail maintenance. In the spirit of holding hands and singing Kumbaya (sic?), surely that’s something we can all agree on, e-biking enthusiast or not.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Today’s ebike ride. 
















I’m 52yrs old, this ride was done in trail mode most of the time and some turbo. Sweating pretty good and working hard. Cardio wise, just as hard as when I use to ride reg. bike, just the legs don’t get as hammered. 


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> But you'll welcome class 2 ebikes on your rides with open arms? You did say that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


Many places do allow class 2 Ebikes. Need to check the rules and reg of the local trail area. 

Silentfoe, you are clearly against Ebikes and that’s fine. But why are you posting so much in the ebike forum? 


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

chazpat said:


> Aren't most trails class 1 only?
> 
> *A word from E-bike Forum Moderator Mtbbiker - Guidelines*
> 
> ...


Many places do allow class 2 Ebikes 


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

mtbbiker said:


> Today’s ebike ride.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Either your heart rate monitor is severely off or you are dead. Since you are obviously not dead, I'll go with the former.

At 52 years old, hitting 182 bpm is extremely dangerous. 

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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

mtbbiker said:


> Many places do allow class 2 Ebikes. Need to check the rules and reg of the local trail area.
> 
> Silentfoe, you are clearly against Ebikes and that’s fine. But why are you posting so much in the ebike forum?
> 
> ...


I'm absolutely not against ebikes. I've probably owned one longer than 90% of the people on this site, including you. They make excellent commuters.

I am absolutely against emtbs. I ride with them every now and then and I find that they check every negative block that we knew they would.

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> Today’s ebike ride.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





mtbbiker said:


> Let’s keep this thread focused and on track! All other posts will be deleted.


Wait- so what exactly do your stats have to do with the subject?
🤷‍♂️


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## markloch (Jul 15, 2021)

Silentfoe said:


> I'm absolutely not against ebikes ... I am absolutely against emtbs. I ride with them every now and then and I find that they check every negative block that we knew they would.


Take the "e" out of "ebikes" and "emtbs" and you echo the sentiment that plenty of people still have about mountain bikes.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Silentfoe said:


> … I find that they check every negative block that we knew they would. …


Not familiar with the phrase, “negative block.” Please define, Silentfoe. Thanks.
=sParty


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> I am absolutely against emtbs. I ride with them every now and then and I find that they check every negative block that we knew they would.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


You’ve made your position know over & over. All you do is troll this forum, so let’s change your name for a few days to just Silent👍🏼 
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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

chazpat said:


> Aren't most trails class 1 only?
> 
> *A word from E-bike Forum Moderator Mtbbiker - Guidelines*
> 
> ...





Silentfoe said:


> But you'll welcome class 2 ebikes on your rides with open arms? You did say that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


As others have already pointed out, there are a lot of places that class 2 ebikes are allowed on singletrack. My very first ebike ride on singletrack was on a class 2 ebike with a throttle. Even in the Lake Tahoe basin you can ride class 2 ebikes…

*NEVADA STATE PARKS*
Lake Tahoe Nevada State Park does allow e-bikes on trails intended for use by bikes. This means that e-bikes are allowed on the Flume Trail and the Tahoe Rim Trail (TRT) between Hobart Road and the park boundary north of Tunnel Creek Road...
*E-Bike Classification*
Nevada does not define electric bicycles by class. Nevada defines e-bikes as “electric-assisted bicycles, so long as the e-bike’s motor is under 750w, has a maximum speed of 20mph, and has operable pedals.” Class 1 and 2 e-bikes fall under this definition and are allowed on multi-use paths and bike lanes where bicycles are also permitted.


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## markloch (Jul 15, 2021)

mtbbiker said:


> Today’s ebike ride.
> ...
> I’m 52yrs old, this ride was done in trail mode most of the time and some turbo. Sweating pretty good and working hard. Cardio wise, just as hard as when I use to ride reg. bike, just the legs don’t get as hammered.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looks a lot like the ride I'm about to take, but about 15 BPM less - I'm 61. My goal is to average 135-140 which according to CDC is considered "vigorous" for my age but sure doesn't seem like it anymore. After a sedentary post-cancer year, when my cardiologist got me on a treadmill, I practically croaked trying to get to and maintain 140 bpm so the could image my heart. Now I don't even notice.

On the more specific topic of the increase in pedal-assist emtbs, where I live/ride, and especially as supply woes ease up, you're seeing a lot more over-50's moving to emtbs. I live in a county with a rich mtb history - a lot of us locals who are 55+, now riding e-mtbs, started riding these same trails in the 60's and 70's on whatever bike was around, and later on purpose-built klunkers. Now we're getting old, still reasonably athletic but not obsessively-so, and while many are still out there "earning it" the hard way, a lot of us earn plenty on our emtbs. 

The writing is on the wall, for most consumers e-bikes over the next decade will displace regular bikes, mtb, gravel, road, urban/fitness, whatever. Drive systems will become lighter, gearboxes will be integrated into the drive systems, and innovations like Fazua's removable drive/battery will become more common.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

markloch said:


> Looks a lot like the ride I'm about to take, but about 15 BPM less - I'm 61. My goal is to average 135-140 which according to CDC is considered "vigorous" for my age but sure doesn't seem like it anymore. After a sedentary post-cancer year, when my cardiologist got me on a treadmill, I practically croaked trying to get to and maintain 140 bpm so the could image my heart. Now I don't even notice.
> 
> On the more specific topic of the increase in pedal-assist emtbs, where I live/ride, and especially as supply woes ease up, you're seeing a lot more over-50's moving to emtbs. I live in a county with a rich mtb history - a lot of us locals who are 55+, now riding e-mtbs, started riding these same trails in the 60's and 70's on whatever bike was around, and later on purpose-built klunkers. Now we're getting old, still reasonably athletic but not obsessively-so, and while many are still out there "earning it" the hard way, a lot of us earn plenty on our emtbs.
> 
> The writing is on the wall, for most consumers e-bikes over the next decade will displace regular bikes, mtb, gravel, road, urban/fitness, whatever. Drive systems will become lighter, gearboxes will be integrated into the drive systems, and innovations like Fazua's removable drive/battery will become more common.


I kinda doubt ebikes will displace serious road bikes. Commuters, yes, roadies, no. I asked previously what was going on with eRoad bikes but did not get a reply.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

chazpat said:


> I kinda doubt ebikes will displace serious road bikes. Commuters, yes, roadies, no. I asked previously what was going on with eRoad bikes but did not get a reply.


Right? No one cares about eBike racing. And from where I sit, there's still plenty of people into the sport of cycling. 

I think there's a way to make eBike racing interesting but it's going to be a cluster for a long while. A motor is always going to be a hard dividing line with the cycling legacy and traditional measurements & comparisons across generations; and that's one hill the e-motor ain't going to help you get over.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chazpat said:


> I kinda doubt ebikes will displace serious road bikes. Commuters, yes, roadies, no. I asked previously what was going on with eRoad bikes but did not get a reply.



They'll never displace them but I do think we'll see more of them infiltrating group rides. Just like e-mtb's they allow older and/or slower people to hang with their buds. 

Several major bike companies offer reasonably lightweight e-road bikes with low-powered motors that don't cause any drag when you pedal above their speed rating.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Just to give us something else to argue about....

I’ll tell you what is a dead end path: eBike racing where it is indistinguishable from regular bike racing. XC racing (and even to an extent Enduro) on the screen barely communicates the speed; it’s the watcher's understanding that the effort is beyond them that makes it interesting. Going “a bit faster” but aided by the power of motor is a recipe for a yawn fest. It won’t translate. Also, speeds & efforts by pros on 250watt motor shouldn’t feel approachable to regular blokes on bike with 400 watts. "Did you see what they did and with only 200 watts?" Lulz. Um no, no one is going there. Unrelatable.

IMHO, class one racing is probably ok for participants but a big fat zero for spectator and spectacle. I’d recommend going right to class three+ as the flagship signature racing. Take a lesson from other motor sports. Watch MX and those doubles and triples can only be done on with a proper MX bike. Or go the "asset and liability" path like trials and hard enduro; average Joe’s can walk a hard enduro course, but very few can get a 230lb motor bike up those same hills and obstacles. 

So find terrain and challenges where the eBike singularly excels and is the optimum vehicle for that course - leave no question. That’s what people want to watch. They need to go “that was amazing”.

Maybe add in some technology restrictions like FormulaE where everyone gets access to the same battery but how you choose to apply the power and when is the stratagem and brings “team” interest. Be sure you finish under power. There’s a bit of this now (class1) but it’s lukewarm & boring.

Further, the watcher needs to believe that the best racer won and that one bike isn’t so superior and overwhelming that basically the racer is interchangeable. MotoGP learned this too - if only the best team had access to best tire, the race is already decided. But make the tire selection open to all but choose your compound wisely and now its back to the racer acumen. I do admit that MotoGp suffers from endless “what ifs” like “if rider X was on bike Y, they’d win” but that’s probably unavoidable. Basically, tech choices are important but there’s a restriction that makes it compelling and keeps it a race. 

tldr: Don't make eBike racing a diluted replacement cycling event. Showcase something unique to that platform. Make it interesting on the specialized tech but restricted enough so that the racer's efforts/acumen matters.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> They'll never displace them but I do think we'll see more of them infiltrating group rides. Just like e-mtb's they allow older and/or slower people to hang with their buds.
> 
> Several major bike companies offer reasonably lightweight e-road bikes with low-powered motors that don't cause any drag when you pedal above their speed rating.


Good point, I wasn't really thinking in terms of group/social.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Carl Mega said:


> I’ll tell you what is a dead end path: eBike racing


Really no need to go any farther than that.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Carl Mega said:


> Just to give us something else to argue about....
> 
> I’ll tell you what is a dead end path: eBike racing where it is indistinguishable from regular bike racing. XC racing (and even to an extent Enduro) on the screen barely communicates the speed; it’s the watcher's understanding that the effort is beyond them that makes it interesting. Going “a bit faster” but aided by the power of motor is a recipe for a yawn fest. It won’t translate. Also, speeds & efforts by pros on 250watt motor shouldn’t feel approachable to regular blokes on bike with 400 watts. "Did you see what they did and with only 200 watts?" Lulz. Um no, no one is going there. Unrelatable.
> 
> ...


Nice analysis. Motocross and auto racing can be fun to watch because of the sense of speed and danger. What's boring to watch is marathon running and jet boat racing. You'd think jet boats would be exciting to watch but the background on the screen is just water. The boat simply sits there moving a little bit in the center of the monitor.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Carl Mega said:


> Just to give us something else to argue about....
> 
> I’ll tell you what is a dead end path: eBike racing


I think it's more what's a dead-end: contrived racing. By that I mean anything that didn't start out as grass roots. If you look at all the successful forms of racing (whether it's motorsports or human powered or sailboats or whatever) they generally have one thing in common: they started out because people raced because it was fun and they wanted to do it. Then it gets popular, and eventually they make organizations around it and then sponsors show up with money. But when it starts with money from sponsors and industry from square one because "this is how you sell products!" it's pretty much doomed to failure.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

nilswalk said:


> I think it's more what's a dead-end: contrived racing. By that I mean anything that didn't start out as grass roots.


I think you're on to something... But the whole category (1) is contrived to start with...shaped from a desire to be 'legal' and sell products. I don't know if you can wash that off.

At some point, racing becomes showcasing the best possible. Tech, acumen, ability. Let's see what is possible when the limits are pushed. Imagine the opposite: Race Announcer: "Ladies and gentlemen, you are about to see some racing with bikes powered to an arbitrary limit so they can access public trails and sell the most units. Get ready for some action that is more or less what you have seen before and we'll leave you wondering where the motor stops and human starts". Meh.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Carl Mega said:


> I think you're on to something... But the whole category (1) is contrived to start with...shaped from a desire to be 'legal' and sell products. I don't know if you can wash that off.
> 
> At some point, racing becomes showcasing the best possible. Tech, acumen, ability. Let's see what is possible when the limits are pushed. Imagine the opposite: Race Announcer: "Ladies and gentlemen, you are about to see some racing with bikes powered to an arbitrary limit so they can access public trails and sell the most units. Get ready for some action that is more or less what you have seen before and we'll leave you wondering where the motor stops and human starts". Meh.


Have you watched the E-EWS? I caught a few races and it was really exciting. Especially the last one, when Sam Hill and another current Pro DH rider decided to ride their brands ebike. Sam Hill almost pulled off the win against the Nicolas Vouilloz. Sam Hill would have gotten 1st, if it weren’t for the technical climbing part of the race. 


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## rozinkafitness (10 mo ago)

Bassmantweed said:


> I enjoy the climbing - i think that they are missing half of the skillset, challenge and fun. That being said I'm 50 and in a decade or two ill prob be on one.
> 
> in all seriousness - 50% of my riding is for enjoyment the other 35% is for the health benefits and the other 15% is just to enjoy being n the peace and quiet of nature.


I totally agree!! I enjoy climbing too and it is a big part of the enjoyment for me! Everyone is in such a hurry and I don't mind going a bit slower and taking it all in!


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## markloch (Jul 15, 2021)

chazpat said:


> I kinda doubt ebikes will displace serious road bikes. Commuters, yes, roadies, no. I asked previously what was going on with eRoad bikes but did not get a reply.


Agreed - I didn't say _replace_, rather they'd _displace _bikes_ for most consumers. _I'll hazard a guess that in ten years Average Joe and Jane will be buying some kind of pedal assist bike before they buy an "analog" bike, and more to the point, they'll being getting a pedal assist bike when they'd otherwise get no bike at all, and they'll be riding with friends and family when before they weren't.

What ebikes do best is flatten hills - level the playing field, literally. People of varying ages/strength can ride together when previously they couldn't, whether on the road, mountain, wherever. 

There are a number of Fazua-powered road bikes FAZUA - Road Bikes.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> Have you watched the E-EWS? I caught a few races and it was really exciting. Especially the last one, when Sam Hill and another current Pro DH rider decided to ride their brands ebike. Sam Hill almost pulled off the win against the Nicolas Vouilloz. Sam Hill would have gotten 1st, if it weren’t for the technical climbing part of the race.


Just highlights like here: 




To me, it wasn't compelling - like a lot less interesting than regular Enduro. Clunky. Sadly, most Enduro coverage makes lousy viewing tbh. Just watched WC DH this weekend, man, that kills it IMHO. Quality production, I never miss a race.

I think something in enduro format could be good but needs a rework. I was buoyed by this on E-EWS website:

"There will be no technical restrictions on batteries etc as we believe technology needs maximum opportunity to innovate and grow and it’s already moving at a very fast rate"

Then deflated on this:

"All bikes must be limited to EU regulations for e-bike/pedelec (25kmph)"


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

markloch said:


> Agreed - I didn't say _replace_, rather they'd _displace _bikes_ for most consumers. _I'll hazard a guess that in ten years Average Joe and Jane will be buying some kind of pedal assist bike before they buy an "analog" bike, and more to the point, they'll being getting a pedal assist bike when they'd otherwise get no bike at all, and they'll be riding with friends and family when before they weren't.
> 
> What ebikes do best is flatten hills - level the playing field, literally. People of varying ages/strength can ride together when previously they couldn't, whether on the road, mountain, wherever.
> 
> There are a number of Fazua-powered road bikes FAZUA - Road Bikes.


Well, hopefully that will move the country into a more bike friendly transportation direction. Around me, it is slowly happening. I occasionally commute to work. There is a bike lane for a good part of it but then I have to take to sidewalks. It then passes under a freeway which was a total dangerous mess and I'd detour on some other roads, also busy but not as bad and with a bridge and no exit/entrance ramps. Now both the underpass and overpass are a mess of construction, have been for several years. But I'm waiting to see what they do for bike traffic. The overpass appears to have a very wide sidewalk, I'm thinking it is a multi-use path.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Carl Mega said:


> Just watched WC DH this weekend, man, that kills it IMHO. Quality production, I never miss a race.


Yeah it is! That's the only bike racing that I enjoy watching any more, actually. 

I used to enjoy watching the TdF back in the US Postal/Lance Armstrong era but I had to watch from start to finish and let the drama build over several days. It wasn't something I could just pop into for a stage or two.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Not sure if we have many but I have no interest in the steep-grind-up and bomb down (and then repeat) type of trails so I don't know. I have seen more eMTBs on local trails and they are ~80% slightly older guys (60-75) and ~20% younger but certainly not anywhere near a majority. Not yet anyway. Es are still sort of looked-down upon around here, especially if you appear younger or fitter. That has not changed yet either.


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## rustie (Apr 21, 2010)

Tall BMX'r said:


> At least were I ride, which is a public bike park developed by local mountain biker's for years. There's no lift or shuttle, just bomb down and grind up. Over the past 4 or 5 months I've notice more and more pedal assist bikes. So much so, that the non-assist riders like myself are the few. I just ride the up's off to the side, because of all the PA's passing me constantly. I've talked to a number of them, and they admit that they would not be riding mountain bikes if they didn't have the pedal assists. It's what got them out there.
> My friend I ride with regularly has one. He just waits for me at the top, but I wait for him at the bottom Do I think about getting one? Yes, but not in the near future. I would, and have always grinded out my rides for the work out and thrill of the down. I have ridden my friends PA both up and down a steep single track. What I noticed is it just plows down through rocks. You can feel the weight and momentum of the bike. My bike is so light, I don't feel the weight and momentum of the bike. In bigger rocky sections I have to get way back off my seat to put my bodies weight more behind the bike. On the PA I didn't feel I had to get way back because the weight of the bike just pushed through everything.
> The jumps on the PA was just straight off and land. I'm used to hopping my bike into the air and crossing it up. I don't see any PA bikes doing anything other than going straight over gap jumps, level ups, or any other jumps.
> My friend rides about 5 miles from his house and meets me at the bike park. We do a couple of loops (7 to 8 miles and 1,000 feet elevation on average) and I'm beat. He rides home another 5 miles. I'm dripping sweat, he's not.
> Would I have more fun on a PA mtb? I don't know.... The jumps would not be as fun for sure...


You're right about the lack of nimbleness going DH on an ebike.
You actually have to be certain there IS a direct line to charge through. 
Two different worlds.
There are certainly some runs where a lightweight trad bike is more fun..........but then there are those climbs.....
Enjoy!


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## rustie (Apr 21, 2010)

Bassmantweed said:


> how does one use an ebike to get to the top of a mountain with the same workout as a regular bike without turning off motor?


Without being clever........
You have 3 power modes, which you play to get the best workout you can manage.
Actually the extra weight of an ebike starts to show up as you use a lower mode on steep hills.
...........but enjoy trad bikes, if that's your choice.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Flyer said:


> Not sure if we have many but I have no interest in the steep-grind-up and bomb down (and then repeat) type of trails so I don't know. I have seen more eMTBs on local trails and they are ~80% slightly older guys (60-75) and ~20% younger but certainly not anywhere near a majority. Not yet anyway. Es are still sort of looked-down upon around here, especially if you appear younger or fitter. That has not changed yet either.


where is "here"?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

This (Pedal-assist being the majority claim) certainly hasn't happened here (here = Central TX), at least not yet.

I do see 1-2 regular e-bike riders on my Tuesday night group ride, than can be upwards of 70 riders total (we separate by skill level in to 4 groups). This particular ride is certainly a trail ride on some rocky, but with very little climbing, technical single track. Under these circumstances (i.e. group ride, can spot the lights coming through the woods a long ways in advance, hikers are not out at this time of night, very novice riders on the e-bikes) the e-bikes are more a hindrance to speed, than a help.

They aren't allowed really anywhere here but on the rougher back trails I'd be lying if I didn't admit that on some of those trails (very challenging climbs at times and naturally 1 way) an e-bike would be darn nice.

It does seem that quite a few of them pop up for sale here locally, many barely ridden. I suspect that a few rides in a realization is made that they are a bad fit for our trail systems.

If I lived somewhere with long road climbs and steep 1 way descents, I'd love to have an e-bike for those particular trails.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

mtbbiker said:


> Have you watched the E-EWS? I caught a few races and it was really exciting. Especially the last one, when Sam Hill and another current Pro DH rider decided to ride their brands ebike. Sam Hill almost pulled off the win against the Nicolas Vouilloz. Sam Hill would have gotten 1st, if it weren’t for the technical climbing part of the race.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe I am watching particularly bad footage but the e-races I have seen are laughable. Embarrassing. Pathetic. That footage has served to feed the fire of the haters.

Before you react, bear in mind that I own and enjoy 2 e-bikes. They will never replace my Druid, Honzo and Unit, and I will never try to pretend they are something they are not, but I do still enjoy them for what they are.


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## JPentin (Mar 8, 2021)

I've read through quite a number of responses to this post and admire how most responders have kept it civil. I have been on my e-MTBs for about 4 years now. I got my first one right after I had multiple surgeries on my knee and feet. I had just purchased a new SC 5010 and as beautiful as a ride it was, I just wasn't riding it on the ridge near my home. Ran into a bunch of crazy gnar MTB'rs who had upgraded to e-Bikes soon after. I was shocked as I had an attitude about e-bikes. But I bought one. And since my wife and daugther also ride, I bought them e-Bikes as well. Soon I was riding my local ridge all the time and was able to ride with both my wife and daughter, together, as the bike allowed my wife to keep up. Since then I've also done nearly a 1,000 mile ride along the continental divide in the Colorado Rockies and Nw Mexico desert, on my SC Heckler. At one point I rode it 400 miles without a re-charge, proving that you can ride these bikes, get an incredible workout...if you want it. I still ride acoustic bikes, both road and MTB. I mix my riding all the time between the various types of bikes and it works for me. I notice a lot of responders here stated they'd consider an e-Bike when they're older. I'm older, I'm 65. I didn't get an e-Bike because of my age, I got one so I could continue to ride. And as noted in some of the responses, e-Bikes are getting a lot of couch potatoes back outdoors, enjoying cycling even is the naysayers don't think it's MTBing. That's a good thing in this very obese world these days. Hope to see any and all of you on the trail soon, coexisting and enjoying whatever type of bike you've got on two wheels!


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Maybe I am watching particularly bad footage but the e-races I have seen are laughable. Embarrassing. Pathetic. That footage has served to feed the fire of the haters.
> 
> Before you react, bear in mind that I own and enjoy 2 e-bikes. They will never replace my Druid, Honzo and Unit, and I will never try to pretend they are something they are not, but I do still enjoy them for what they are.


The absolutely worst race I saw was when they put the Ebikes on a motorcross track. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

mtbbiker said:


> The absolutely worst race I saw was when they put the Ebikes on a motorcross track.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah. It may very well be that I just haven’t seen the good stuff yet. It may have been a motocross track for some of it, now that you mention it! I recall racers pushing their e-bikes up big steep kickers. Or something equally crazy.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> The absolutely worst race I saw was when they put the Ebikes on a motorcross track.


Here you go: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-the-fim-emtb-world-cup-race-in-imola-was-embarrassing.html

I could swear there was another one too - like really bad.

Edit: The guy around 36:30 is unintentionally hilarious.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Carl Mega said:


> Here you go: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-the-fim-emtb-world-cup-race-in-imola-was-embarrassing.html


OMG 😟


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Carl Mega said:


> Here you go: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-the-fim-emtb-world-cup-race-in-imola-was-embarrassing.html
> 
> I could swear there was another one too - like really bad.
> 
> Edit: The guy around 36:30 is unintentionally hilarious.


Can you imagine being the poor saps that had to be the announcers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Carl Mega said:


> Here you go: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-the-fim-emtb-world-cup-race-in-imola-was-embarrassing.html
> 
> I could swear there was another one too - like really bad.
> 
> Edit: The guy around 36:30 is unintentionally hilarious.


That’s one of them I saw. There are others…


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## ajlevine (12 mo ago)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Would I have more fun on a PA mtb? I don't know.... The jumps would not be as fun for sure...


My Levo SL is 38 pounds and feels like a traditional bike when descending and jumping. I'm having way more fun and doing many more miles. I do 2-3 strenuous non-eMTB rides a week, so my Levo days are aerobic/recovery rides from a training standpoint. Before I rode the eMTB, I'd frequently be exhausted and overtrained. My general fitness and bike handling skills have improved with the Levo.

-Andy


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

ajlevine said:


> My Levo SL is 38 pounds and feels like a traditional bike when descending and jumping. I'm having way more fun and doing many more miles. I do 2-3 strenuous non-eMTB rides a week, so my Levo days are aerobic/recovery rides from a training standpoint. Before I rode the eMTB, I'd frequently be exhausted and overtrained. My general fitness and bike handling skills have improved with the Levo.
> 
> -Andy


Jeez, my DH bike is 38# and I can throw that thing around well enough. Actually my enduro bike is not much lighter, like 37#.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

mtbbiker said:


> Have you watched the E-EWS? I caught a few races and it was really exciting. Especially the last one, when Sam Hill and another current Pro DH rider decided to ride their brands ebike. Sam Hill almost pulled off the win against the Nicolas Vouilloz. Sam Hill would have gotten 1st, if it weren’t for the technical climbing part of the race.


This is exactly why e-bike racing is contrived and boring. It's kind of amusing that you said this as evidence that it's exciting  It's like some current DH riders entering a race for fun in their spare time, some at-the-end-of-his-career EWS rider, a 46-yr old DH rider from yesteryear and probably some XC guys just having a laugh. It's not a competitive racing series made up of people who are focused on it - it's people who have sponsorships and relationships with teams in "real" series' doing it for a lark. Nobody is gonna follow the series thinking "oh boy, I really hope the X team does well this year! Did you see so-and-so switched from team X to team Y?" etc. It's just a contrived load of nonsense with a bunch of random competitors who probably take it about as seriously as a local club race with their buddies.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

nilswalk said:


> This is exactly why e-bike racing is contrived and boring. It's kind of amusing that you said this as evidence that it's exciting


Nice response! Yes, I thought that last race was an exciting race and yes I think the future E-EWS is going improve with each passing year. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ellsworthevrepene (Dec 19, 2006)

Tall BMX'r said:


> At least were I ride, which is a public bike park developed by local mountain biker's for years. There's no lift or shuttle, just bomb down and grind up. Over the past 4 or 5 months I've notice more and more pedal assist bikes. So much so, that the non-assist riders like myself are the few. I just ride the up's off to the side, because of all the PA's passing me constantly. I've talked to a number of them, and they admit that they would not be riding mountain bikes if they didn't have the pedal assists. It's what got them out there.
> My friend I ride with regularly has one. He just waits for me at the top, but I wait for him at the bottom Do I think about getting one? Yes, but not in the near future. I would, and have always grinded out my rides for the work out and thrill of the down. I have ridden my friends PA both up and down a steep single track. What I noticed is it just plows down through rocks. You can feel the weight and momentum of the bike. My bike is so light, I don't feel the weight and momentum of the bike. In bigger rocky sections I have to get way back off my seat to put my bodies weight more behind the bike. On the PA I didn't feel I had to get way back because the weight of the bike just pushed through everything.
> The jumps on the PA was just straight off and land. I'm used to hopping my bike into the air and crossing it up. I don't see any PA bikes doing anything other than going straight over gap jumps, level ups, or any other jumps.
> My friend rides about 5 miles from his house and meets me at the bike park. We do a couple of loops (7 to 8 miles and 1,000 feet elevation on average) and I'm beat. He rides home another 5 miles. I'm dripping sweat, he's not.
> Would I have more fun on a PA mtb? I don't know.... The jumps would not be as fun for sure...


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## Ellsworthevrepene (Dec 19, 2006)

ajlevine said:


> My Levo SL is 38 pounds and feels like a traditional bike when descending and jumping. I'm having way more fun and doing many more miles. I do 2-3 strenuous non-eMTB rides a week, so my Levo days are aerobic/recovery rides from a training standpoint. Before I rode the eMTB, I'd frequently be exhausted and overtrained. My general fitness and bike handling skills have improved with the Levo.
> 
> -Andy


I’m gonna get **** on for saying this but IDGAF. We’ve become a society that thrives on instant gratification and short cuts. I’ve ridden ebikes, I see the fun and attraction but there’s no way in hell even in the lowest amount of assist that you’re working as hard as my “analog” ass. When my broke ass body can’t pedal anymore I’ll get one. Until that day I’ll earn my descents and if I get only one in I’ll feel like a bad ass not some Steven Segal wannabe. C’mon sling your **** IDGAF.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Ellsworthevrepene said:


> I’m gonna get *** on for saying this but IDGAF. We’ve become a society that thrives on instant gratification and short cuts. I’ve ridden ebikes, I see the fun and attraction but there’s no way in hell even in the lowest amount of assist that you’re working as hard as my “analog” ass. When my broke ass body can’t pedal anymore I’ll get one. Until that day I’ll earn my descents and if I get only one in I’ll feel like a bad ass not some Steven Segal wannabe. C’mon sling your *** IDGAF.


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## ajlevine (12 mo ago)

Ellsworthevrepene said:


> I’m gonna get *** on for saying this but IDGAF. We’ve become a society that thrives on instant gratification and short cuts. I’ve ridden ebikes, I see the fun and attraction but there’s no fucking way in hell even in the lowest amount of assist that you’re working as hard as my “analog” ass. When my broke ass body can’t pedal anymore I’ll get one. Until that day I’ll earn my descents and if I get only one in I’ll feel like a bad ass not some Steven Segal wannabe. C’mon sling your *** IDGAF.


Hehe. I agree. You are working harder than me on the days I ride my eMTB.
I ride just about every day. With that volume, a mix of hard efforts and longer low intensity rides is good for my overall fitness, and a ton of fun.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

You gotta love the "earn your turns" crowd. STFU. Good talk.


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

Ellsworthevrepene said:


> I’m gonna get *** on for saying this but IDGAF. We’ve become a society that thrives on instant gratification and short cuts. I’ve ridden ebikes, I see the fun and attraction but there’s no way in hell even in the lowest amount of assist that you’re working as hard as my “analog” ass. When my broke ass body can’t pedal anymore I’ll get one. Until that day I’ll earn my descents and if I get only one in I’ll feel like a bad ass not some Steven Segal wannabe. C’mon sling your *** IDGAF.


Instant gratification, lol. Like every new bike, bike part, or accessory ? What I think you're missing is those that want one buy one, nothing to do with "Instant gratification". I ride mostly xc stuff, and have been earning my turns for 30+ years, but with my new Rise it just adds to the fun big time. Don't want one...perfect, do your thing, but everyone has their reasons either way, but to judge or classify emtb riders into the couch potato club is ignorant at best. Have a good day Mr. Segal...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

If I not only bought an Ellsworth but named myself after it as well, I'd be AF bitter too.


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## AgentPhatrick (Oct 7, 2012)

goldsbar said:


> What's so bad with going slower? All of this, "I need an ebike when I'm older." I say this as someone that has always been into adrenaline sports. I realize at some point in the not-to-distant future my power output will decrease and I won't be climbing at the same pace or covering the same amount of ground. Oh well, I won't be able to lift as much either, but I'm not going to lift weights with a mechanical exo-skeleton.


Just try one. Fit or disabled they are great fun. Which is why I built a MTB back in the 80’s. It was the next logical step after BMX, and EMTB is just one more step in the same direction. Just ride respectfully and enjoy🤘🤘


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

Ellsworthevrepene said:


> I’m gonna get * o*n for saying this but IDGAF. We’ve become a society that thrives on instant gratification and short cuts. I’ve ridden ebikes, I see the fun and attraction but there’s no way in hell even in the lowest amount of assist that you’re working as hard as my “analog” ass. When my broke ass body can’t pedal anymore I’ll get one. Until that day I’ll earn my descents and if I get only one in I’ll feel like a bad ass not some Steven Segal wannabe. C’mon sling your IDGAF.


So I guess you're against chairlifts as well?


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## AgentPhatrick (Oct 7, 2012)

Tall BMX'r said:


> You are not far off. I've already seen bikes for sale on CL where they mention their reason for selling an almost brand new mtb is they bought an emtb. One mentioned they were switching because their friends were all riding emtbs now. I don't think the market will flood with used mtbs. A good percentage of the emtb riders I talk to are basically new to riding trails, and wouldn't be riding if it wasn't for the advent of the pedal assist. Like any sport, people will jump on a trend, but won't stay with it, and bike, exercise machine or surf board will just collect dust in their garage...


I hate to say it, but my Scott genius LT tuned has been gathering dust ever since I got my sweet levo. The few times I have been out on my analog bike I have definitely still had fun, as it is almost half the weight of the E bike and I do like popping and snapping off trail features. They are two different types of riding and each gets me out on the trail so that is a win-win in my opinion.


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## AgentPhatrick (Oct 7, 2012)

bad mechanic said:


> So I guess you're against chairlifts as well?


Nice *bold print.*


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

nilswalk said:


> This is exactly why e-bike racing is contrived and boring. It's kind of amusing that you said this as evidence that it's exciting  It's like some current DH riders entering a race for fun in their spare time, some at-the-end-of-his-career EWS rider, a 46-yr old DH rider from yesteryear and probably some XC guys just having a laugh. It's not a competitive racing series made up of people who are focused on it - it's people who have sponsorships and relationships with teams in "real" series' doing it for a lark. Nobody is gonna follow the series thinking "oh boy, I really hope the X team does well this year! Did you see so-and-so switched from team X to team Y?" etc. It's just a contrived load of nonsense with a bunch of random competitors who probably take it about as seriously as a local club race with their buddies.


This is what eMTB racing should be like:


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

bad mechanic said:


> So I guess you're against chairlifts as well?


Yeah man, all of those lazy-ass World Cup DH racers should pedal to the top, then they wouldn't be so fat and out of shape, LOL.


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## AgentPhatrick (Oct 7, 2012)

WHALENARD said:


> Because non-e-bikers deal with e-bikes, good, bad, or indifferent. A mystery 4 year old logic could solve.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


So deal with it. Lordy, people sound like hikers or equestrians!


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## AgentPhatrick (Oct 7, 2012)

jimglassford said:


> Let's use your example. I am in "granny gear," trying to get up a hill and the person on the e-bike in on my rear because I am not going fast enough. Trails here are narrow and passing is difficult.


So polite ebiker backs off until safe to pass. Just like Strava dudes going for a PR still need to be polite. The problem is that ass hats can ride the same trails too. Such is life, and ebikes will become the norm soon enough.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Nat said:


> Yeah man, all of those lazy-ass World Cup DH racers should pedal to the top, then they wouldn't be so fat and out of shape, LOL.


Keep in mind that DH bikes are optimized for the down to the point of making uphill travel basically impossible. Thus chairlifts become a necessity for that specialization.

The eBikes we see here are basically identical to trail bikes that are pedaled 100% under human power all day, every day. The motor is solely to alleviate the pedalling effort as the bikes themselves are not specialized in any impactful way.

Wasn't exactly your point and you're a good poster in this thread. But I hear the chair lift comparison trotted out a lot and I'm like...you...are...riding...a...trail bike. With a motor.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Carl Mega said:


> Keep in mind that DH bikes are optimized for the down to the point of making uphill travel basically impossible. Thus chairlifts become a necessity for that specialization.


I was being completely sarcastic.


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

Do Steve Seagal wannabes get a pass if they are hucking 20 foot gaps on their ebikes?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Bikeventures said:


> Do Steve Seagal wannabes get a pass if they are hucking 20 foot gaps on their ebikes?


Where does Steven Seagal rank in comparison to Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee?


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

Carl Mega said:


> Keep in mind that DH bikes are optimized for the down to the point of making uphill travel basically impossible. Thus chairlifts become a necessity for that specialization.
> 
> The eBikes we see here are basically identical to trail bikes that are pedaled 100% under human power all day, every day. The motor is solely to alleviate the pedalling effort as the bikes themselves are not specialized in any impactful way.
> 
> Wasn't exactly your point and you're a good poster in this thread. But I hear the chair lift comparison trotted out a lot and I'm like...you...are...riding...a...trail bike. With a motor.


So then I'm not allowed to ride my trail bike at the chairlift serviced bike park? I've also ridden downhill bikes uphill, and while it sucks it's very doable. 

I'm simply pointing out the "earn your descents" argument against eMTBs isn't a good one.


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

We went to Keystone years ago so our son and his riding buddy could do the flow trails, etc..They were on their DH bikes and used the lift, but rode up a few sections. I opted to ride (pedal) to the top and ride some trails down. The chair lift IS a way to get to the top, but not my choice. Point is, guys bash emtb's because it's easier to get to the top to get more laps, just like a chairlift does, but you don't see many posts on emtb riders bashing gravity riders on chairlifts, other than pointing out the obvious. Do you, don't be a little *****, and get on with life...


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

bad mechanic said:


> So I guess you're against chairlifts as well?


For trail riding, absolutely. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

bad mechanic said:


> So then I'm not allowed to ride my trail bike at the chairlift serviced bike park? I've also ridden downhill bikes uphill, and while it sucks it's very doable.
> 
> I'm simply pointing out the "earn your descents" argument against eMTBs isn't a good one.


I love when people read imaginary crap into what I write. No, I didn't elude to that...or write that. I don't care what bike you do your lift serve on.

I love it even more when someone who would be the type to make up imaginary sh1t also gets wildly pedantic on phrasing. Yes, not technically impossible to ride a DH bike up - just impractical to the point of ridiculousness.

You didn't point out anything. Nothing useful anyway. But maybe the comparison of eBikes whose form factor is that of very easy to pedal trail bikes isn't so relevant against highly specialized downhill bikes. Lift-serve DH and eBikes can be judged according to their own merits. Plenty of whataboutism in the land of those trying to justify their choices.


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

I tuned out of this thread for a few days; 4 on Intense Sniper T and 2 on the Levo. Everyone of those days were damn fun! Glad to see that in the meantime lots of opinions have changed due to the discussion.😜


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Just a reminder guys, this is a G rated site. I had to remove some foul language that violates posting rules. This is a broad warning, do it again and warning points will go with the cleanup efforts, and if you have read the rules warning points stack until you get a temp ban.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

I just bought a new pedal bike to go along with my ebike….. Fantanstic trail system here in Western North Carolina with Dupont,Pisgah,and Kanuga bike park. Unfortunately, I cant ride my Intense Tazer ebike but select places and I need a pedal bike if I want to take advantage of ALL the trails....


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

Carl Mega said:


> I love when people read imaginary crap into what I write. No, I didn't elude to that...or write that. I don't care what bike you do your lift serve on.
> 
> I love it even more when someone who would be the type to make up imaginary sh1t also gets wildly pedantic on phrasing. Yes, not technically impossible to ride a DH bike up - just impractical to the point of ridiculousness.
> 
> You didn't point out anything. Nothing useful anyway. But maybe the comparison of eBikes whose form factor is that of very easy to pedal trail bikes isn't so relevant against highly specialized downhill bikes. Lift-serve DH and eBikes can be judged according to their own merits. Plenty of whataboutism in the land of those trying to justify their choices.


You should probably unwind yourself and re-read what I wrote. But I'll go ahead and repeat myself, the "earn your descents" argument by Ellsworthevrepene is a poor one due to the accepted use of chairlifts. That's it.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> For trail riding, absolutely.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


You wouldn't make an exception in order to access a high alpine epic trail at the top of the world in Switzerland like this???


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bad mechanic said:


> You should probably unwind yourself and re-read what I wrote. But I'll go ahead and repeat myself, the "earn your descents" argument by Ellsworthevrepene is poor one due to the accepted use of chairlifts.


Actually, chairlifts have nothing to do with that being a idiotic 'argument'. 

Who the hell is someone like that to believe that it's remotely their place to say who has 'earned' the right to do whatever the hell they want with their own leisure time?
It's a position based 100% in being an arrogant, self-centered and judgmental (censored due to moderator request). 
These types, pretty much to a man, tend to be one-trick ponies who think that their tiny little perspective on how to recreate is for some reason the only 'correct' one.
The only argument they are trying to make is that everyone should look upon them as being as superior as they have somehow convinced themselves they are. 
(-insert more censored bits here-)


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

slapheadmofo said:


> Actually, chairlifts have nothing to do with that being a idiotic 'argument'.
> 
> Who the hell is someone like that to believe that it's remotely their place to say who has 'earned' the right to do whatever the hell they want with their own leisure time?
> It's a position based 100% in being an arrogant, self-centered and judgmental (censored due to moderator request).
> ...


Well said...


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## fredman1085 (10 mo ago)

slapheadmofo said:


> Actually, chairlifts have nothing to do with that being a idiotic 'argument'.
> 
> Who the hell is someone like that to believe that it's remotely their place to say who has 'earned' the right to do whatever the hell they want with their own leisure time?
> It's a position based 100% in being an arrogant, self-centered and judgmental (censored due to moderator request).
> ...


"It's a position based 100% in being an arrogant, self-centered and judgmental (censored due to moderator request). "

I keep rereading this and inserting different cuss words for the censored part. Amazingly, they all seem to work


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fredman1085 said:


> "It's a position based 100% in being an arrogant, self-centered and judgmental (censored due to moderator request). "
> 
> I keep rereading this and inserting different cuss words for the censored part. Amazingly, they all seem to work


It's like Mad Libs!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

CRM6 said:


> I just bought a new pedal bike to go along with my ebike….. Fantanstic trail system here in Western North Carolina with Dupont,Pisgah,and Kanuga bike park. Unfortunately, I cant ride my Intense Tazer ebike but select places and I need a pedal bike if I want to take advantage of ALL the trails....


How does it feel to go back to the mtb? I rode one the other day and I was bored.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> It's like Mad Libs!


What’s a noun? 🤣


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Gutch said:


> How does it feel to go back to the mtb? I rode one the other day and I was bored.


Im with my friends and its a blast! Ive ridden Dupont and Bent Creek and its nice on a pedal bike. Usually solo on my ebike unless my buddies all come to Kanuga and then they are fighting for a pull to the top! lol


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Gutch said:


> How does it feel to go back to the mtb? I rode one the other day and I was bored.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

After spending the winter on my e-fattie, I CAN’T WAIT to get back on my Druid and Honzo. I literally dream about it at night.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Gutch said:


> How does it feel to go back to the mtb? I rode one the other day and I was bored.


Nothing quite like riding a well sorted 27 pound carbon trail bike.

Super fun.


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## slomtbr (Oct 9, 2010)

RickBullottaPA said:


> My first response to the original post on this thread was "no way". But recently i've noticed a ton of eMTBs on the trails, and almost all of them 20 or 30 something broskis, not 50-70 year olds. Might be some truth to the trend. It's certainly already the case in some parts of Europe.


My wife and I took our eMTBs to Mammoth Bike Park, and I swear we were the oldest eMTB riders by many years (we're 53 and 62).


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Yes, exactly my opinion. IMO my Levo is way more fun.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

I don't think it's a matter of replacing, it's probably brought people to trails who wouldn't have otherwise. $15k ish here for the high end ones means we aren't seeing groms on them. But if I was older and had the cash I'd jump right in.
Maybe it's like golf whereas instead of years of grinding your way to a single figure handicap you can just go out and buy it.
I don't think it's a bad thing, just different, trails will need to be marked more carefully. No longer can you have a black descent that used to be accessed by a long hard climb that would thin out inexperienced riders.

That said I managed to keep a straight face when someone i be deal with at work mentioned how much fun his Levo was but how he hated how heavy it was lifting it onto the shuttle truck...


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

slomtbr said:


> My wife and I took our eMTBs to Mammoth Bike Park, and I swear we were the oldest eMTB riders by many years (we're 53 and 62).


Young pups! You should see the looks when my wife (59) and I (70) get in the lift line at Whistler, Steven's Pass, Silver Mtn or Schweitzer (where we got lectured on the size of their rocks!).


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## PattD (Feb 22, 2004)

Noplacelikeloam said:


> I hope you flagged that ride as an e-bike ride? Strava leaderboards and KOM's are a complete waste of time these days with ebikers adding in runs. I hope these platforms build in some sort of AI that recognizes a 50% increase in speed over a short period is erm, not entirely you.


Strava flags it but you still have to acknowledge it was an eBike ride


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## Dr Hollidaze (9 mo ago)

Battery said:


> Thanks for not making your post a big rant about ebikes. You seem more respectful toward ebikers and validated your need to stay on regular bikes (for now). I definitely understand both ends of the cycling spectrum when it comes pedal assist and regular bikes. Here in WA, if you have a handicap placard, you can ride on any trail system that allows regular bikes. That law was passed last summer. I'm going to talk with my doc about getting a placard. I need one anyways. My mobility is just terrible and I'm always in pain.
> 
> I've been on my ebike for roughly 2 months. Maybe it's just me but I still sweat a ton when riding. The best thing I love about my ebike is that my HR is 20 bpm lower than usual. That's a big game changer for me because I was always in Zone 5 HR and entering anaerobic state on a regular bike. It didn't matter what my pace was or if I was climbing, descending, or flat ground pedaling. I keep my HR in check because my breathing can become rather shallow when I am riding anaerobic for far too long.


Agree! At 70 yrs with bad to the bone arthritis my riding days were done.....now with e bike I'm riding "miles" on and off road on a 70 lb fat bike...almost everyday. With pedal assist I am able to get a workout and cruise for just the pleasure of it. Power to the people.....united we ride....divided we fall (-*


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

Battery said:


> Here in WA, if you have a handicap placard, you can ride on any trail system that allows regular bikes. That law was passed last summer. I'm going to talk with my doc about getting a placard. I need one anyways. My mobility is just terrible and I'm always in pain.


Battery - I'm also in WA and have been trying to find documentation about the law you referred to above. Given that there is a mixture of land administered by BLM, National Forest, WFWL, State Parks, County, etc... How does a WA law cover all trails that allow use of a regular bike? Can you link to info on the law? 

Also, my wife is "handicapped" in terms of needing an ebike due to complications from spinal stenosis, but otherwise doesn't need or qualify for a handicap placard. How did the discuss with your doc go, if you're in the similar situation?


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

russinthecascades said:


> Battery - I'm also in WA and have been trying to find documentation about the law you referred to above. Given that there is a mixture of land administered by BLM, National Forest, WFWL, State Parks, County, etc... How does a WA law cover all trails that allow use of a regular bike? Can you link to info on the law?
> 
> Also, my wife is "handicapped" in terms of needing an ebike due to complications from spinal stenosis, but otherwise doesn't need or qualify for a handicap placard. How did the discuss with your doc go, if you're in the similar situation?


Just get your doctor to write you a script and either keep it with you or keep a picture of it on your phone. Your doctor will happily write one for you.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bad mechanic said:


> Just get your doctor to write you a script and either keep it with you or keep a picture of it on your phone. Your doctor will happily write one for you.


If an e-bike qualifies as an OPDMD under the ADA, you not only shouldn't need this, but no one is allowed to demand it.
Not 1000% sure if they do, but I believe so. Definitely close enough you could argue it.
It's federal law, and applies on all state and federal lands, with the exception of Wilderness to the best of my knowledge.

*"Who is to be allowed to use the other power-driven mobility devices?*
The DOJ rules say anyone who has a mobility disability. A person using an other power-driven mobility device may be asked to provide a “credible assurance” that the mobility device is required because of the person's disability. That credible assurance can be showing a valid, State-issued, disability parking placard or card, or other State-issued proof of disability, or if the person doesn’t have any of those with them, they may simply say that the other power-driven mobility device is being used for a mobility disability. A person may not be asked if they have a disability or anything about their disability.

Only 8 million people who have mobility limitations use wheelchairs, canes, crutches, etc. Close to 20 million people have a mobility related disability but don’t use wheelchairs, canes, and so forth. However, they still have mobility disabilities that limit the distance they can walk due to heart or breathing disorders, amputations, joint or muscle related disabilities, and the list goes on. Keep in mind that 85% of all disabilities aren’t obvious."






Basic Facts on Department of Justice Rule on Power-Driven Mobility Devices for Accessibility - American Trails







www.americantrails.org




.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> If an e-bike qualifies as an OPDMD under the ADA, you not only shouldn't need this, but no one is allowed to demand it.
> Not 1000% sure if they do, but I believe so. Definitely close enough you could argue it.
> It's federal law, and applies on all state and federal lands, with the exception of Wilderness to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> ...


The article you link says it does not apply to Federally managed lands (this was 2011 and unless an updated ruling shows differently, it still stands) and yes, you can be asked to explain the mobility devices need, either with a placard or simple explanation. Someone can't ask what the disability is.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Are you guys really parsing the details of powered mobile disability devices?

....as they pertain to singletrack?

Am I reading that right?


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Are you guys really parsing the details of powered mobile disability devices?
> 
> ....as they pertain to singletrack?
> 
> Am I reading that right?


If someone were to overstake their issue or fraudulently apply for ADA status simply to ride eBikes, well - gross.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Silentfoe said:


> The article you link says it does not apply to Federally managed lands (this was 2011 and unless an updated ruling shows differently, it still stands) and yes, you can be asked to explain the mobility devices need, either with a placard or simple explanation. Someone can't ask what the disability is.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


Cool - thanks for the clarification.


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

Carl Mega said:


> If someone were to overstake their issue or fraudulently apply for ADA status simply to ride eBikes, well - gross.


We're kind of mixing topics here (as usual??). Applying for a Disabled Parking placard, at least in WA, has nothing to do with ADA. I'm interested in seeing how a State law can be applied to Federal land since many of the areas we ride are Federal. 

Being "disabled" enough to need an ebike for singletrack, doesn't necessarily qualify someone for general disabled status. For me this is more of an academic discussion, since I often ride an ebike just to keep up with my wife. I can see the discussion with LEO, "okay lady, you're fine with a medical exemption. But you, buddy, riding an ebike to keep up with your wife doesn't cut it! Here's your citation. "


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

russinthecascades said:


> We're kind of mixing topics here (as usual??)


I don't know you but I do know you seem to use "air quotes" a lot and on words like "handicapped". Whatever your situation is... it is. I stand by what I wrote: if one's motivation is to fraudulently exploit disability status to ride an eBike where not normally permitted - that is gross and insulting.


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

Carl Mega said:


> I don't know you but I do know you seem to use "air quotes" a lot and on words like "handicapped". Whatever your situation is... it is. I stand by what I wrote: if one's motivation is to fraudulently exploit disability status to ride an eBike where not normally permitted - that is gross and insulting.


Wasn't disagreeing with you.

BTW, "xx" are simply called quotation marks in punctuation. "Handicapped" has both legal definitions and common use definitions. I'm using it as a generic term, sorry if that offends you.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

russinthecascades said:


> Battery - I'm also in WA and have been trying to find documentation about the law you referred to above. Given that there is a mixture of land administered by BLM, National Forest, WFWL, State Parks, County, etc... How does a WA law cover all trails that allow use of a regular bike? Can you link to info on the law?
> 
> Also, my wife is "handicapped" in terms of needing an ebike due to complications from spinal stenosis, but otherwise doesn't need or qualify for a handicap placard. How did the discuss with your doc go, if you're in the similar situation?








E-bike Rules and Regulations | WA - DNR


Electric-assisted bicycles (e-bikes) are increasing in popularity and the Washington State Department of Natural Resources is in the process of assessing changes to how they are managed. E-bike means a bicycle with two or three wheels, a saddle, fully operative pedals for human propulsion, and...




www.dnr.wa.gov





I don't know for sure how this law is implemented. I don't know if it's only DNR lands or pretty much anywhere. Best guess is that it may be for DNR land only. I haven't talked to my doctor just yet. I need to schedule an appointment. I do have a lot of mobility issues so I could get lucky and qualify for one. I really need one for general use anyways.

Sadly I've only ridden my ebike 2-3 times since I bought it in January. I'm having a hard time getting back out there because my body can't take impacts and hits on the trail. I just started taking a turmeric supplement and so far it's helping with my chronic pain. It may also help me ride my bike. Gotta give it a shot soon.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> where is "here"?


Sorry, I missed this unless I forgot that I replied. I live in Colorado- west of Denver near the foothills.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Hard to imagine that so many people choose to forgo just biking choosing instead motor biking. 

Thankfully no such thing has happened in Central TX. I doubt e- bikes are even 1% of the bikes on the trails here. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Hard to imagine that so many people choose to forgo just biking choosing instead e-biking.
> 
> Thankfully no such thing has happened in Central TX. I doubt e- bikes are even 1% of the bikes on the trails here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


Oh I’m sure ebikes are coming👍🏼. Here is So Cal 3yrs ago, I was one of the few ebikers around. Now there are days when I see almost 50:50 mix! Another few years, ebikes will probably be the majority around here. 

There are so many reasons people are now choosing ebikes! For me it’s just so much more enjoyable having fun 100% of the ride and not just the downhills. Never really enjoyed climbing, but to enjoy the DH you either shuttled, bike park or rode to the top. Now I can ebike to the top and get a decent cardio workout, not quite like a MTB, but close enough for me. Plus ride more often and hit more DH than ever before👍🏼


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Suns_PSD said:


> Hard to imagine that so many people choose to forgo just biking choosing instead motor biking.
> 
> Thankfully no such thing has happened in Central TX. I doubt e- bikes are even 1% of the bikes on the trails here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


I think you need lots of 'disposable income' - so highly populated, affluent places like SoCal will boom first etc. Texas? I would say yes.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I've seen three in the wild.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

Suns_PSD said:


> Thankfully no such thing has happened in Central TX.


 no hills no need


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

natrat said:


> no hills no need


Well we have hills, it's called the Hill Country. But it's true we don't have mountains and that said e- bikes certainly are not a good fit in this area.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## johnny_boy02 (10 mo ago)

Jack7782 said:


> I think you need lots of 'disposable income' - so highly populated, affluent places like SoCal will boom first etc. Texas? I would say yes.


Mountain biking is a quick way to spend “disposable income” period. No need for a ebike. Almost everyone I see on the trail these days has a $4500-$15000 bike


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Yeah, I don't care about the $ portion. 

It's a safety and legality issue around here. Also a potential loss of fitness issue. 

I've ridden in places where an ebike would have made great sense, however CTX isn't it. 

Certainly I'll have an ebike eventually, likely when I retire and relocate to another state. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

You are missing out on fun - no one can test ride one without at least smiling 🙂


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## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

I'm 54 and ride a hardtail in the SoCal high desert and these are just some of the things I have seen first hand...

1) Motor assisted bikes went from 0% to 35% on my trails in just the last 3 years.
2) One of my best friends switched to motor assisted exclusively about 2yrs ago and has gained over 25lbs, yet rides 2-3 times a week.
3) I'll get passed at speed on a grueling climb without so much as a "Hi, coming up on your left" one out of three rides.
4) ^ Those same people will be seen walking their motor assisted bikes down the techy sections of the single track.
5) My trails look the worst they have.... ever.
6) Trails that can't be ridden up even by Nino are now being attempted by the motor bikes screwing up the trails where you don't expect it when descending. Not the end of the world, but it exists.
7) Lots of young couples out together riding (late 20s - 30s)


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## jackshack (May 11, 2011)

D Bone said:


> I'm 54 and ride a hardtail in the SoCal high desert and these are just some of the things I have seen first hand...
> 
> 1) Motor assisted bikes went from 0% to 35% on my trails in just the last 3 years.
> 2) One of my best friends switched to motor assisted exclusively about 2yrs ago and has gained over 25lbs, yet rides 2-3 times a week.
> ...


Is that you in your avatar?


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## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

jackshack said:


> Is that you in your avatar?


Yes sir.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Jack7782 said:


> You are missing out on fun - no one can test ride one without at least smiling 🙂


No doubt it would be a blast. That said much of our local trail system is much too tight for an e-bike. There are very serious line of sight issues even on trails that you can travel quite fast on. Taking unskilled riders and placing them on a 55# bike that goes 20mph very easily is a good way to end up with a dead innocent child on these trails. 

I'm constantly amazed that 19 out of 20 riders don't apply brakes or swerve to their right when I encounter them head on. The vast majority literally just continue down the center of the trail with a dead man's suicidal stare directly forward. Adding more weight and speed to this equation is not a good idea, here. When I visited CO to ride and rode up a boring dirt road for an hour only to bomb straight down a DH, an e-bike makes 100% sense on those trails.

I'd LOVE to have an e-bike for our super tech trails because: there is literally no one else on them, 2) they are totally one way because of the steepness. 3) I'm usually plodding along pretty slowly due to the chunk and steepness of the uphill portions.

Then I'd use my Spur for the peddle heavy tight trails that have family's, hikers, children, dogs, etc on them.

Something like this being codified and heavily enforced would be great. My feeling is that e-bikers would ignore the rules however in large part making a common sense rule hopeless.


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## rtonthat (11 mo ago)

“…ebikers would ignore the rules…”

you are painting “ebikers”with a pretty wide brush. The ebikers I know came from regular mountain bikes and have as much trail etiquette as anyone here. They still ride exactly the same as they did before, just more of it. They didnt just magically become trail trash because they have pedal assist.

If you are referring to new ebikers, well new ebikers with bad trail manners will also have bad trail manners on a traditional mtb.


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

I also think the current mindset of people in general these days is to be easily offended by most anything. Hypersensitivity is rampant and it shows...I personally think a bunch of these stories of people getting passed on a climb by an emtb'er going 20 mph are more or less embellishments of the hypersensitive repeating a campfire story to continue the "emtb has ruined mountain biking" croud. Flame on...


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rtonthat said:


> “…ebikers would ignore the rules…”
> 
> you are painting “ebikers”with a pretty wide brush. The ebikers I know came from regular mountain bikes and have as much trail etiquette as anyone here. They still ride exactly the same as they did before, just more of it. They didnt just magically become trail trash because they have pedal assist.
> 
> If you are referring to new ebikers, well new ebikers with bad trail manners will also have bad trail manners on a traditional mtb.


I agree with what you are saying, I have ridden a Levo and had a blast but also maintained proper etiquette when riding since I have over 20 years of MTB and shared trail use experience.

But there is a difference.

When a brand new rider gets an eBike or a regular MTB and goes out to mutli-use trails, they do not have that experience and there is no requirement for them to read a trail etiquette guide and sign a paper stating they will abide by those trail etiquette practices. The Regular biker is going to go slow on the climbs and won't have the same sort of flat ground power and speed that could be accomplished on an eBike with little to no effort. When we heard stories on this site about rude eBikers riding off trail to blow by others on climbs, that is now the difference. A brand new rider on a regular bike is not going to be passing other experienced riders on a sustained climb.

I say this coming from a stance that Class 1 eBikes should be allowed on most trails where a regular MTB has access. Punish the rider, not the bike.

I don't think it is asking too much for eBikers to recognize that eBikes are faster on climbs and on flats, roughly the same on descents and that is a pretty big difference between them and a regular bike. Understanding that Land Managers might see the difference as insurmountable is necessary. Recognizing that Advocacy needs to be done for a new class of bike is a requirement. Claiming that separate advocacy is not needed and a ride-it until they legalize it attitude is more harmful than helpful is a problem.


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## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

PS mtb said:


> I personally think a bunch of these stories of people getting passed on a climb by an emtb'er going 20 mph are more or less embellishments of the hypersensitive repeating a campfire story to continue the "emtb has ruined mountain biking" croud.


That _campfire story_ happened to me on my last ride on Wednesday. It also happened 3 times in April.... twice on the same 21 mile ride.

The worst part is that not all of the kool uphill shredders are newbies on motor assisted bikes, some are experienced riders with talent that made the switch for whatever excuse, er reason that they have.

^ We also have a lot of walkers at the trail system who think the dog leash law doesn't apply to their _well trained furry child_, and I have to hit my brakes for them even more frequently as being startled from behind while I'm suffering.

I get passed from behind by motor assisted riders every single ride and the majority of them do call out their approach, but it only takes that one bad apple as they say.

The first few times it happened I probably involuntarily said something like "damn dude", but now I will say (politely as possible in the moment) "Hey, the next time you are going to pass someone can you please yell that you are coming well before you pass?"

My thought process is that they simply don't know how irritating it is and if no one ever told them, then how would they know?

Much like when someone is driving "the speed limit" in the left lane with 13 cars stacked behind them and when we all have to find an opening and somehow pass on the right, the driver gets 13 you're number 1 hand gestures to help educate them.


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## Roaming50 (Apr 30, 2009)

ocnLogan said:


> Class 1 ebikes are illegal at almost anywhere I’d want to ride near me. Meaning, there is only 1 place worth riding within a ~2hr drive (one way) of my home where they are legal. Not that that prevents others from riding them on other trails around here, but its enough of a reason that for me I haven't even considered one.


This was the reason I had not tried an ebike until recently. I did not see the point as most "interesting" places still ban them. However when I was in Bentonville (a very ebike friendly place) I rented a Trek Rail 7 and rode that for 32 miles and 3200ft of climbing on day 4 of a 6 day trip. It was eye opening but it allowed me to ride at a point where natural fatigue would have had me skip a day at that point and it was one of my most fun rides ever.

But access is still an issue. in Wisconsin, the State parks do not allow ebikes but I found out that most county or city parks do, or they do not have an explicit exclusion. Still many places I might want to ride, do not allow them though.

I decided that sometimes bone headed rules might need to be broken. As long as we're "not being a dick" and ride with care and attention and don't draw notice to yourself, most people don't care or don't notice. As a result I ordered a more stealthy ebike. I'm getting an Orbea Rise. It does not scream "look at me". It will boost only what I put into me. I'm looking for a ebike that will feel more like my regular bike and basically help manage rider fatigue. I'll turn 52 this year and while I ride more and more and try to keep my fitness up, I find my strength is less and I can not ride as far or as long as I used to be able to. I'm relying on this bike to take 20 years off my age...

I think over the next few years eMTBs will evolve into two distinct categories. Those that are like the Trek Rail that are heavy with big batteries but provide a lot of low down grunt where if you wanted to you can just put it into boost and soft pedal your way to the top, and those that are like the Rise, less powerful, smaller batteries and more normal looking which ride more like an extension of your lungs and feel more like a normal bike.

I think the last category could explode and that will be because trail access is lagging behind and riders will just give rolling the rules and push on ahead with riding..


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

52 isn't old....unless you've decided to just give up.


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## Roaming50 (Apr 30, 2009)

goldsbar said:


> What's so bad with going slower? All of this, "I need an ebike when I'm older."


It's not so much the going slower part, though there is part of that when you have family and commitments, it is harder to commit more time to riding. The other part is more fatigue. 

10 years ago (in my early 40s) I could ride 40 miles and do 5,000ft of climbing before I would blow up with leg cramps or just burn out. That would be a big ride. Now, in my early 50s I find trying to run at the same pace (I'm not I'm much slower, but I still feel fast until some 30-something blow past me) I now find my limits at around 20 miles and 2,000ft of climbing before I can feel the fatigue and cramps about to hit my legs. In 10 years, I've lost about half my endurance even though I'm riding more today than I did back then.

I don't have it yet, but I have an ebike on order. One of the lighter weight ones that looks more like a normal bike. I still want to be able to earn my ride like an analog bike, but I am looking at the ebike to boost my endurance and subtly boost my speed.

Last year I moved from Colorado to Wisconsin. One take away from that was that when I was in mountain states, I was happy on an analog bike being slow, grinding up hill, for the rush of the descent at the end. Now, in the flat lands of the mid west there is none of that "earn your reward". The irony is that most trails feel like you are climbing the entire time. You climb, then hit a short descent, for which you get no payback as it's over oh so quick. No time to recover, then next climb. Its quite brutal when ridden hard. Honestly, I think I will get more assist, and more excitement out of the ebike, in flatter trail systems, than say mountain states. But that's just my reasoning...


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

man, don't be ^that guy. tries an ebike once and now he's all about making his own rules (breaking the real ones that is) and dropping 'analog' like it's hot. stay in Wisconsin. glad you moved.


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## mike b cycle (8 mo ago)

I've owned a Levo for two years but still find myself reaching for my YT Izzo 9 out of 10 times I ride. The Izzo is more nimble and fun. At age 55 I have no problem doing a 5,000 foot day on it.


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## markloch (Jul 15, 2021)

Roaming50 said:


> I don't have it yet, but I have an ebike on order. One of the lighter weight ones that looks more like a normal bike. _*I still want to be able to earn my ride like an analog bike, but I am looking at the ebike to boost my endurance and subtly boost my speed.*_


For most of us, that's the point of moving to an e-mtb, regardless of the level of assist the bike provides. The definition of "earning it" is a personal one, anyone else's definition is as meaningless as asking how many angels can dance on the point of a pin.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

markloch said:


> The definition of "earning it" is a personal one....


Stop.

No, it's not a "personal" definition. 

"Earning it" forms the backbone definition of the sport of "mountain" biking. Motoring up the mountain may be your personal choice but it is NOT mountain biking, regardless of how (you) want to define it.


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## markloch (Jul 15, 2021)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Stop.
> 
> No, it's not a "personal" definition.
> 
> "Earning it" forms the backbone definition of the sport of "mountain" biking. Motoring up the mountain may be your personal choice but it is NOT mountain biking, regardless of how (you) want to define it.


So you're saying if it has a motor, regardless of the level of assist one takes advantage of - 20%, 40%, 60% 80% - you're not "earning it"? There's no such thing as 100% assist on a class-1 ebike. If I burn 1500 calories riding my e-bike and you burn 1500 calories riding your bike, you've earned it but I haven't?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Stop.
> 
> No, it's not a "personal" definition.
> 
> "Earning it" forms the backbone definition of the sport of "mountain" biking. Motoring up the mountain may be your personal choice but it is NOT mountain biking, regardless of how (you) want to define it.



So by your "personal" definition, DHing isn't mountain biking?

Stop.

It is, regardless of how (you) want to define it.


I agree that e-biking is NOT the same thing as mountain biking, but what you're saying here doesn't pass the smell test. You don't get to be the self-appointed gate-keeper of what is and isn't mountain biking for everyone anywhere but in your own head.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> You don't get to be the self-appointed gate-keeper of what is and isn't mountain biking for everyone...


He is and always has been.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Stop.
> 
> No, it's not a "personal" definition.
> 
> "Earning it" forms the backbone definition of the sport of "mountain" biking. Motoring up the mountain may be your personal choice but it is NOT mountain biking, regardless of how (you) want to define it.


 Only your type of mtn biking is the real mountain biking. What an unsurprising self righteous attitude.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

markloch said:


> If I burn 1500 calories riding my e-bike and you burn 1500 calories riding your bike, you've earned it but I haven't?


Correct.

Anything else I can assist you with today?


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## markloch (Jul 15, 2021)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Correct.
> 
> Anything else I can assist you with today?


Ah, orthodoxy.


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## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

I rode White Ranch Belcher Hill today to Maverick to Longhorn. The climb up is a beast, Longhorn is the funnest rowdy downhill bike only trail I ride close to my house. After I was done back in parking lot, spoke to a guy who had the Santa Cruz bullit and he let me ride around the parking lot, holy hell is that thing a game changer. His buddy riding a mtb today also has an emtb and he said he rode longhorn 4 times in a day due to being able to climb up Belcher hill with assist 4x. 

I am all in for that type of day. Ride mutiple downhill runs and shuttle myself to top and be able to ride again tomorrow. He did mention mtb is a leg workout and emtb more of a cardio since you can stay in zones 3-4 instad 5-6 on mtb.

I am sure I won't give up my Ripmo AF fully but I am selling my 951 XC as I do not want to ride XC type trails any longer.

I am now looking at the Wire Peak Pro from Fezzari, Orbea rise h15 as well as a couple others. Fezzari has 30 day ride and try so may go that route initially.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

markloch said:


> Ah, orthodoxy.


Well, that's a fair point.

....and today's society seems to revel in the unorthodox, regardless of tradition, or rules, or ethics, or costs, or consequences. As long as it's "unorthodox" it's cool, it's groundbreaking, it's forward thinking, futuristic, avant garde, anti-establishment, and so on.

If we just throw unorthodox opinions, based on personal whims, at definitons of a "sport", then nothing defines it. 

"Earning it" on singletrack might probably be the last orthodox concept in the "sport of mountain biking", but apparently it gives everyone looking for shortcuts to the top, a bleeding wedgie. Which is ironic given that mountain biking was born as an unorthodox, purely human-powered way to enjoy singletrack.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

You use gears to get to the top...you didn't earn it.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Bacon Fat said:


> You use gears to get to the top...you didn't earn it.


Truth. No matter how badass you think you are, there's always some guy riding a rigid single-speed unicycle up the hill who thinks you're a total wimp, taking the easy way to the top with your extra wheel.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

D Bone said:


> 2) One of my best friends switched to motor assisted exclusively about 2yrs ago and has gained over 25lbs, yet rides 2-3 times a week.


Heh, I wonder where that 25lb that I LOST went from me riding a motor assist bike over the past two years went. Tell him he can keep it. Seriously, he gainded 25 lb and still rode two-three times a week? He needs to see a doctor.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Two to three times a week really isn't necessarily enough riding to offset eating crap and drinking beer. Not by a long shot. I could see it.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

dysfunction said:


> Two to three times a week really isn't necessarily enough riding to offset eating crap and drinking beer. Not by a long shot. I could see it.


But if you are doing the same rides before then after being on an eMTB does not increase your weight by 25lb. I just got back from a 18 miles ride and I am down 3lb. Granted most is water weight and I will gain 1-2 back but I by the end of the summer, I will be down 15 by riding 2-3 times a week and thats from riding an eMTB exclusively. For rme to do that and gain 12-15 (in a year) that would be from some really poor eating choices and that cannot be blamed on the bike.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

As far as eMTB's being the majority ... I have to disagree, especially where we ride (Peavine Mtn in Reno). The highest percentage of eMTB's I have seen out has been maybe 50% and that was just once or twice. Most of the time it is 20-30%. I will say, almost every rider I see is an experienced long time rider that understands trail etiquette and is very respectful. I also understand that that is not the case everywhere, especially in resort regions where there are a lot of inexperienced riders renting eMTB's and msot are out there with little or no explanations from the rental shop to where and where they cannot ride let alone etiquette.


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## rtonthat (11 mo ago)

SkiTalk'er said:


> Heh, I wonder where that 25lb that I LOST went from me riding a motor assist bike over the past two years went. Tell him he can keep it. Seriously, he gainded 25 lb and still rode two-three times a week? He needs to see a doctor.


We’ve all got that “one friend” that defies logic.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

rtonthat said:


> We’ve all got that “one friend” that defies logic.


It's like the patsy at the table, if you don't know who it is .... it's probably you


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

SkiTalk'er said:


> But if you are doing the same rides before then after being on an eMTB does not increase your weight by 25lb. I just got back from a 18 miles ride and I am down 3lb. Granted most is water weight and I will gain 1-2 back but I by the end of the summer, I will be down 15 by riding 2-3 times a week and thats from riding an eMTB exclusively. For rme to do that and gain 12-15 (in a year) that would be from some really poor eating choices and that cannot be blamed on the bike.


If you're riding with the same guys, who are all on regular bikes, all you've done is reduce your effort. So again, it all depends. Too many assumptions going on.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

dysfunction said:


> Too many assumptions going on.


On both sides.


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## Roaming50 (Apr 30, 2009)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Stop.
> 
> No, it's not a "personal" definition.
> 
> "Earning it" forms the backbone definition of the sport of "mountain" biking. Motoring up the mountain may be your personal choice but it is NOT mountain biking, regardless of how (you) want to define it.


So I do have a class 3 e-gravel bike. I ride that as hard as I ride an analog bike. Indeed, in many cases my heart rate average is as high or higher than when I’m on an analog bike. 

Here’s my ebike ride from the other day. 








And this is one from my analog mountain bike. 









Basically the same max heart rate of 193 but I think the average is up as there’s less slow spots on that ride. 

I’m 51 btw so standard calculators say my max should be 169 which is hysterical as I can average that for hours on end. In the end I ride at the pace my body allows. I feel quick on analog bikes but realize I’m not anymore when younger riders catch me up and leave me in the dust. I’m not slacking off. My heart rate proves it. 

So you think I’m not earning my ride, just because I want a bit more speed and assist on hills? Have you spent nearly 2 hours climbing nearly 3,500ft continuously at 2 mph? It’s f’ing boring. If I can do that at 4mph with assist and complete that in one hour then how is that cheating? It’s still f’ing 3,500ft climbed!

I’m not sure why I bothered replying as you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about and are just trolling. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

If you were hammering your e-bike all over San Francisco delivering 27 lactose-free, organic veggie pizzas (with pineapple) at $30 plus tip, each, you've definitely earned it!

As for whatever self-pleasure you derive from scootering your boomer scooter through your local singletrack loop....you know, deep down in the moist recesses of your soul, you cheated.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Which is ironic given that mountain biking was born as an unorthodox, purely human-powered way to enjoy singletrack.


Translation:

"I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'll just make up some **** to feed my ego."


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

D. Inoobinati said:


> If you were hammering your e-bike all over San Francisco delivering 27 lactose-free, organic veggie pizzas (with pineapple) at $30 plus tip, each, you've definitely earned it!
> 
> As for whatever self-pleasure you derive from scootering your boomer scooter through your local singletrack loop....you know, deep down in the moist recesses of your soul, you cheated.





Roaming50 said:


> you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about and are_* just trolling.*_
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DeoreDX (Jul 28, 2007)

Rockychyrsler expressed my feeling in best in this post in the single speed forum. It's such a great post everyone should read it. But here is the paragraph most relevant to this discussion:









Why singlespeed? (Also see the SS FAQ - Stickied at top...


^ Thanks! That's a good outlook on the fitness/intensity side of it.




www.mtbr.com





_Inside many of our brains, there's a hard-to-articulate compulsion to undertake a thing that has had most, if not all, of its creature comforts and modern advantages stripped away. A thing that requires you, the operator, the driver, the rider, to muster a great effort, to seek and find a sort of oneness with, or a focus on a particular moment in time as you actively traverse a landscape, endure a set of adverse conditions, without any of the technological aides or advantages others might commonly require. To be reminded, at the end of a good day, after a good ride: I can do hard things._

People ride for different reasons and enjoy riding for different reasons. There are those who's enjoyment comes out of riding downhill and going fast. They love seeing big berms and big jump lines. That's not the type of riding I enjoy but I don't fault them for enjoying it. For me mountain biking has always been about getting away from civilization and communing with nature. When I commune with nature I like to experience it with as little technology as possible. I guess that's why I tend to gravitate towards doing things the hard way like ultralight backpacking, traditional archery, and single speed biking. If I don't fault someone for using gears I'm not also going to fault them for attaching an electric motor to those gears. All I care about is if they tear up the trails more or cause a safety issue. On our local trails the ebikers tend to be older less fit riders who are using them to keep up with younger riders, so I haven't seen any issues locally yet.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

D. Inoobinati said:


> you know, deep down in the moist recesses of your soul, you cheated.


I love this word _cheated_ ... please explain how or who am I cheating? You? If so how, pelase explain. Are we actually racing? If so, no one told me. Cheating Strava? I Don't use it any more and when I was, I was using the Ebike setting. Myself? I have put my dues in and continue to. I started riding the 80's, I worked in shops, I built bikes, I built wheels, I help build trails, which I am going later this morning to help our local stewardship. You assume to know my goals in riding and my aspirations, so again, who am I cheating. 

I had a heart condition last year (and my wife is a cancer survivor) and we can ride now. I have roughly 2 hours a day that I can get out to ride, I ride to the trail head, I don't drive, which could be cheating, and I go out and get 15 miles or so in. If I was on my old analog bike, I would be getting 5-8 miles in that same time, over the same trail, now I get to mix it up. So, don't think you know me let alone judge me of what is deep down in my soul ... assuming that I actually have a soul.


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## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

SkiTalk'er said:


> Heh, I wonder where that 25lb that I LOST went from me riding a motor assist bike over the past two years went. Tell him he can keep it. Seriously, he gainded 25 lb and still rode two-three times a week? He needs to see a doctor.


He went from riding under his own power to having a motor push him. He rides the same rides as he used to (all our local trail system) but now doesn't burn near the calories that he used to..... not rocket science here. Sedentary people that hop on a motor assisted bike will undoubtedly lose weight and I'm not arguing that angle. Again, not rocket science. 

His eating is pretty bad as is his alcohol enjoyment and from the outside nothing has changed, but who knows what happens behind closed doors.

When we do ride together he will blast up one of our long grueling climbs and then come back down to me and ride next to me for the last 1/3rd of the climb. He can hold a jovial conversation while I just listen and grunt. It is what it is.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Things that I don't GAF about and that have absolutely nothing to do with MTBing:

Other people's BMI.

Imaginary 'Best Exerciser' trophies.


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## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

SkiTalk'er said:


> I love this word _cheated_ ... please explain how or who am I cheating? You? If so how, pelase explain. Are we actually racing? If so, no one told me. Cheating Strava? I Don't use it any more and when I was, I was using the Ebike setting. Myself? I have put my dues in and continue to. I started riding the 80's, I worked in shops, I built bikes, I built wheels, I help build trails, which I am going later this morning to help our local stewardship. You assume to know my goals in riding and my aspirations, so again, who am I cheating.
> 
> I had a heart condition last year (and my wife is a cancer survivor) and we can ride now. I have roughly 2 hours a day that I can get out to ride, I ride to the trail head, I don't drive, which could be cheating, and I go out and get 15 miles or so in. If I was on my old analog bike, I would be getting 5-8 miles in that same time, over the same trail, now I get to mix it up. So, don't think you know me let alone judge me of what is deep down in my soul ... assuming that I actually have a soul.


Dont bother with that guy, he is a troll who doesn't own an ebike therefore they suck.

I was on my local trail 2 days ago on a techy steepish loose part of the trail and an ebike guy was behind me and we both made it to the same point before having to put a foot down. I let him know he can pass whenever he wants, he says " I am cheating I am on my ebike" I responded "we aren't racing so it can't be cheating" I also had no idea he was on ebike till he said something. He passed me on flatter part of trail and both our rides continued.

This cheating nonsense is just that. WTF cares what others ride or don't ride.

I did however scold one ebiker last year as he tried to pass without saying anything and did not let me know he was behind me. I think he was newer rider and just had no idea how to pass so I told him let people know you are behind them and maybe let them know you are on ebike so they can let you when you can pass. I know when I get mine I will not only let them know I am behind them and on my ebike but I can also wait till they feel comfortable for me to pass.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

D Bone said:


> He went from riding under his own power to having a motor push him. He rides the same rides as he used to (all our local trail system) but now doesn't burn near the calories that he used to..... not rocket science here. Sedentary people that hop on a motor assisted bike will undoubtedly lose weight and I'm not arguing that angle. Again, not rocket science.
> 
> His eating is pretty bad as is his alcohol enjoyment and from the outside nothing has changed, but who knows what happens behind closed doors.
> 
> When we do ride together he will blast up one of our long grueling climbs and then come back down to me and ride next to me for the last 1/3rd of the climb. He can hold a jovial conversation while I just listen and grunt. It is what it is.


I lost weight since the e bike, 4 years already.
Probably because I'm riding 12 hours instead of 8 hours a week 

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

rod9301 said:


> I lost weight since the e bike, 4 years already.
> Probably because I'm riding 12 hours instead of 8 hours a week
> 
> Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


More moving is more moving. Same moving with less intensity, is less. The math is pretty simple, and I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

I burn more calories and have gotten back in shape on my Ebike. I get out of it what I put in. Plus it's way more fun and I get to explore trails that are too far out to ride regularly.

Yes I DO. No not everyone does.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

In the absence of the regular e-bike forum mod I'd like to give kudos to the many of you that did not take the bait of the obvious troll. Warnings have been issued and further attempts at trolling will be addressed with vacations.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

kevjob said:


> I also had no idea he was on ebike till he said something. He passed me on flatter part of trail and both our rides continued.


Must be some silent e bikes where you are. All the ones I've noticed behind me have been fairly obvious from the sound. What is not obvious is how quickly I was caught, but all seem to have a similar whirring noise.


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## 938509 (9 mo ago)

SkiTalk'er said:


> I love this word _cheated_ ... please explain how or who am I cheating? You? If so how, pelase explain. Are we actually racing? If so, no one told me. Cheating Strava? I Don't use it any more and when I was, I was using the Ebike setting. Myself? I have put my dues in and continue to. I started riding the 80's, I worked in shops, I built bikes, I built wheels, I help build trails, which I am going later this morning to help our local stewardship. You assume to know my goals in riding and my aspirations, so again, who am I cheating.
> 
> I had a heart condition last year (and my wife is a cancer survivor) and we can ride now. I have roughly 2 hours a day that I can get out to ride, I ride to the trail head, I don't drive, which could be cheating, and I go out and get 15 miles or so in. If I was on my old analog bike, I would be getting 5-8 miles in that same time, over the same trail, now I get to mix it up. So, don't think you know me let alone judge me of what is deep down in my soul ... assuming that I actually have a soul.


The beautiful thing about riding your e bike as more locations slowly become legal is you don't have to care what people's opinions are... let their salty crevasse burn while you do you.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

SkiTalk'er said:


> please explain how or who am I cheating?



I don't think cheating is the correct word for this type of debate since the rules of each trail are not being broken. However, cheating is cheating. As long as someone else is not hurt, you are not cheating at something? Because someone else is not hurt in the process, does that mean you cannot cheat at solitaire?


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

How is it cheating? Because it is easier?
Solitaire is a game with rules. Are there rule in mtn biking for fun?


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

kevjob said:


> I did however scold one ebiker last year as he tried to pass without saying anything and did not let me know he was behind me. I think he was newer rider and just had no idea how to pass so I told him let people know you are behind them and maybe let them know you are on ebike so they can let you when you can pass. I know when I get mine I will not only let them know I am behind them and on my ebike but I can also wait till they feel comfortable for me to pass.


E-bikes aren't a thing yet where I am at, but the situation you describe is one that I have imagined many times on my local trail system where there are a lot of hills to climb. One of the reasons I'm not a big fan of them.

I did hear through the grapevine though that my local trail will not be allowing e-bikes. If they do, they will lose federal funding for trails and trail maintenance.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Bacon Fat said:


> How is it cheating? Because it is easier?
> Solitaire is a game with rules. Are there rule in mtn biking for fun?


Only for wannbes and exer-dorks who are afraid of real racing.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Only for wannbes and exer-dorks who are afraid of real racing.


Dude, you need to get in a good ride in - and report back to us when the endorphins kick in lol


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jack7782 said:


> Dude, you need to get in a good ride in - and report back to us when the endorphins kick in lol


I'm not the one over here trying to pretend I'm in charge of making the MTB "rules".  🤡

Worry about your own self.


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

prj71 said:


> I did hear through the grapevine though that my local trail will not be allowing e-bikes. If they do, they will lose federal funding for trails and trail maintenance.


Ha, your "grapevine" gossip is ill informed, the rule is that the local managers are the decision makers on wither or not Ebikes are allowed. In my area the local authorities have actually tried to work with allowing Ebikes and gone thru public comment. However, horse people with lawyers have put up road blocks so any rule changes will not be something the local authorities will have the time to fight for. Kind of amazing since horses don't generally ride bike trails as there is no horse trailer parking. So the managers in charge of the decision are just not going to make a decision, then the rule goes back to old rules and what is currently posted.

So, discouraging for Ebikes but they aren't going to enforce either. My call is that if it is posted that Ebikes are not allowed then that is what I won't ride but if the sign shows a quad with a red line thru it and the land is legal to ride snow mobiles on it then I will ride it..........


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

*17.08mi*
Distance
*1:09:29*
Moving Time
*3,541f*
Average HR 157


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

alexbn921 said:


> *17.08mi*
> Distance
> *1:09:29*
> Moving Time
> ...





slapheadmofo said:


> I'm not the one over here trying to pretend I'm in charge of making the MTB "rules".  🤡
> 
> Worry about your own self.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Wheels are "cheating"
Gears are "cheating"
Suspension is "cheating"
Shoes are "cheating"
Clothing is "cheating"

Short of running around in the woods naked, "technology" has given you an unfair advantage. Strange the lines some people draw around themselves.


.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

quadzilla411 said:


> Ha, your "grapevine" gossip is ill informed, the rule is that the local managers are the decision makers on wither or not Ebikes are allowed.


My grapevine is not ill informed. The local manager WAS going to allow e-bikes until he found out that he would lose federal funding for trails and train maintenence if e-bikes were allowed.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Posts deleted, warning points handed out as required, check your profiles if you care to see if it was you.
Don't bag on e-bikes in an e-bike sub-forum. No more warning shots.


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

prj71 said:


> My grapevine is not ill informed. The local manager WAS going to allow e-bikes until he found out that he would lose federal funding for trails and train maintenence if e-bikes were allowed.


Hard to believe that the Feds on one hand gave the authority and decision on Ebikes to the local land managers and then threatened to with hold funds if they allow Ebikes. Hmmm, sounds like the local manager is trying to play both sides of the fence and justification to not make a decision thus no Ebikes legally on that land. I guess the good news is that the lycra clad snow flakes don't have to worry about getting mowed over by fat people riding Ebikes.........


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

prj71 said:


> My grapevine is not ill informed. The local manager WAS going to allow e-bikes until he found out that he would lose federal funding for trails and train maintenence if e-bikes were allowed.


Do you happen to have a link to a Federal Website that shows the why and how of this sort of action? What funding exactly? Who/what agency holds these funds for trail managers?


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> Do you happen to have a link to a Federal Website that shows the why and how of this sort of action? What funding exactly? Who/what agency holds these funds for trail managers?


Doesn't pass the smell test does it? Almost like a statement like that is completely divorced from the realities of funding and land management. But, hey, let the guy call out his manager, area and agency so can follow up on this remarkable situation. There could be a kernel of truth in that ex if you write / win a grant or maintain restricted land you are obligated to those terms and can't whimsically alter them without process.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

Yep, I find grapevines to rarely to be correct even when include raisins of accuracies.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Carl Mega said:


> Doesn't pass the smell test does it? Almost like a statement like that is completely divorced from the realities of funding and land management. But, hey, let the guy call out his manager, area and agency so can follow up on this remarkable situation. There could be a kernel of truth in that ex if you write / win a grant or maintain restricted land you are obligated to those terms and can't whimsically alter them without process.


Exactly. Until there is some sort of documentation explaining how that all works I will have to take his comments about Federal funding with a grain of salt.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

As to the funding question, I did a little research and it appears that certain federal funding for recreational trails are dependent on motorized versus non-motorized trails. Here is a clip from the latest funding:






Recreational Trails Program - Federal Grants Wire


The purpose of this program is to provide funds to the States to develop and maintain recreational trails and trail-related facilities for both...




www.federalgrantswire.com





"Funds may not be used for: property condemnation; constructing new trails for motorized use on National Forest or Bureau of Land Management lands unless the project is consistent with resource management plans; or facilitating motorized access on otherwise nonmotorized trails."

So, if the trail manager applied for federal funding based on the non-motorized use, it is entirely possible the land manager cannot change.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

It's kind of interesting to revisit this topic. I just bought a Santa Cruz 5010 two weeks ago and love it to death. I've ridden it several times over the last 2 weeks and left my ebike in the garage. I will probably alternate the bikes later on but I'm having way too much fun on my 5010. 

Out here, I see mostly regular bikes rather than ebikes in our city MTB parks. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more ebikes on the harder trail systems though. We do have a lot of vertical trails out here in WA!


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

jimglassford said:


> As to the funding question, I did a little research and it appears that certain federal funding for recreational trails are dependent on motorized versus non-motorized trails. Here is a clip from the latest funding:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I would guess that this grant was written and approved before it was determined that area managers have authority to designate a non motorized trail legal to ride Ebikes on. So at least in my eyes I can't see how this trail is any different than any other non motorized trail and the manager should be able to make the change. However, it is quite possible that the grant may include "stipulations" like never motorized, no hunting, et et. 

Anyway, IMO, the managers will not be able to just make a change without public comments, lawsuits and all the other protocol. That is why you won't see much movement on openings in the near future.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Battery said:


> It's kind of interesting to revisit this topic. I just bought a Santa Cruz 5010 two weeks ago and love it to death. I've ridden it several times over the last 2 weeks and left my ebike in the garage. I will probably alternate the bikes later on but I'm having way too much fun on my 5010.


Nice. To me the 5010 is almost the perfect trail bike. It's like a Mazda Miata: whatever the question is, the answer is 5010.

I have a similar experience but with a SC Tallboy. It's also interesting to me to revisit this topic and how my feelings on ebikes have changed over the years. Initially in the "pfffft they're just for lazy people" category. Then rented one and was like "huh, that was kind of neat", then owned one and it was all I rode, then found a nice balance between E and non-E. I don't think they'll ever become the majority, but they'll certainly just become an accepted part of the landscape.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

quadzilla411 said:


> before it was determined that area managers have authority to designate a non motorized trail legal to ride Ebikes on.


Ummm, what determination & what authority? There's a lot packed into a statement like that & I can say it doesn't transcend all agencies or public lands - so being specific is useful. There is obvious discretion on what managers will (and legally can) pursue.

In short, there is a process. Very seldom is it a matter of: "because I said so". In fact, you don't want it to be because that holds no durability and never withstands the rigor of law. The process protects everyone's interests. From the terms in which you've acquired the land, how it can be used, the funding in which supports its projects and maintenance and public input and approval.

So eBikes are allowed "because I said so" is not valid nor is eBikes are NOT allowed "because I said so". You want that codified; at the end of the day, that will be what matters.

I've used the term community "appetite" a few times in this thread because it implies not only 'desire' but a willingness to pursue to the end. Lots of people want things, far fewer are willing to use their resources to see them accomplished. Using that other bloke's example, his manager would allow eBikes (desire) but has no appetite to pursue other funding that isn't earmarked for specific use. Welp thems the breaks. BTW- all grants and programs have these sort of terms and it's not all about eBikes. You don't want your fire mitigation grant money going to buy the sheriff a new car. Or your bird sanctuary grant going to a remote control car and drone area. Or your bike park grant going to hiker only preserve. You don't have to apply for these grants, they are discretionary. But if you win the grant, you are bound by the terms. Otherwise, the limited pool of grant money (and their backing interests) would go to ppl who _would_ comply with the terms. Anyway - depending on the situation - your funds/budget might be entirely independent from the mgmt agency/policy and maybe even the land ownership. You need the specifics.

You sound sensible so I'm not calling you out - more of a general statement here.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

nilswalk said:


> Nice. To me the 5010 is almost the perfect trail bike. It's like a Mazda Miata: whatever the question is, the answer is 5010.
> 
> I have a similar experience but with a SC Tallboy. It's also interesting to me to revisit this topic and how my feelings on ebikes have changed over the years. Initially in the "pfffft they're just for lazy people" category. Then rented one and was like "huh, that was kind of neat", then owned one and it was all I rode, then found a nice balance between E and non-E. I don't think they'll ever become the majority, but they'll certainly just become an accepted part of the landscape.


That's an interesting way to phrase the 5010! Never considered it could be the Miata of the MTB trails! I love the perfect balance of the bike for my needs. It lets out the inner hooligan in me too!


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> Exactly. Until there is some sort of documentation explaining how that all works I will have to take his comments about Federal funding with a grain of salt.


I am very close to the person that works directly with our County Forest supervisor in my county. The supervisor was going to allow e-bikes on the trail system until he found out he would lose federal grant funding if he did that. This all transpired about a month ago.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

prj71 said:


> I am very close to the person that works directly with our County Forest supervisor in my county. The supervisor was going to allow e-bikes on the trail system until he found out he would lose federal grant funding if he did that. This all transpired about a month ago.


you might have missed it, someone already linked to some grant pages that show how grant money might be impacted by proposed trail use.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Gents, let’s get back on topic. This is not about land access issues. 


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

If you want to talk about trails and advocacy, then go here: (371) Trail Building and Advocacy | Mountain Bike Reviews Forum (mtbr.com) 

There's already tons of ebike post over there.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

I was talking to one of the local shops (College Cycles in Reno) at our last trail building meeting and he was staying 80% of his sales now are eBikes, this is someone that is old school as they come.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

SkiTalk'er said:


> I was talking to one of the local shops (College Cycles in Reno) at our last trail building meeting and he was staying 80% of his sales now are eBikes, this is someone that is old school as they come.


What's the age group of those buying?


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## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

Where I am in Front range, Jeffco county allows emtb along with all Colorado State Parks, Maryland MTN, Floyd hill, Vail mountain so I have many options to choose from. I bought a Reign E+2 and have yet to ride it on trails but I am planning on shuttling White Ranch, Apex etc for multple runs a day where as my Ripmo AF I can only do Belcher Hill once as it is a beast. 

If I was in area of limited access I would not have even considered an emtb.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

prj71 said:


> What's the age group of those buying?


I didn't ask but being downtown Reno, it is also a mix of city, cargo and eMTBs


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

SkiTalk'er said:


> I didn't ask but being downtown Reno, it is also a mix of city, cargo and eMTBs


Can you go back and ask what percentage of Mountain Bikes they sell are eBikes? Those are the numbers that matter the most(IMO) for topic of discussion on this site.

I am not surprised one bit that City and Cargo eBikes are selling like hotcakes, they are everywhere here in San Diego and a bunch of newer bike shops have opened in the last few years that only sell eBikes. There is one by the bike path I rode with my family on Sunday that we have frequented for bike bells, etc. I was looking at their inventory, they had to of had like 300 bikes in that store and only 10 of them were non-battery beach cruisers. they had about 20 eMTB's as well, everything else was city, beach cruiser or cargo eBikes, though their cargo stock was extremely low compared to the time before.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> Can you go back and ask what percentage of Mountain Bikes they sell are eBikes? Those are the numbers that matter the most(IMO) for topic of discussion on this site.
> 
> I am not surprised one bit that City and Cargo eBikes are selling like hotcakes, they are everywhere here in San Diego and a bunch of newer bike shops have opened in the last few years that only sell eBikes. There is one by the bike path I rode with my family on Sunday that we have frequented for bike bells, etc. I was looking at their inventory, they had to of had like 300 bikes in that store and only 10 of them were non-battery beach cruisers. they had about 20 eMTB's as well, everything else was city, beach cruiser or cargo eBikes, though their cargo stock was extremely low compared to the time before.


Just liked you said, by the beach, there’s tons of commuter Ebikes. I was watching the news media about San Clemente and the news showed a local high school getting out and wow, tons more Ebikes. But not many E-mountain bikes. 


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Yeah, they are becoming so popular they are actually becoming a problem due to poor education for the riders, mostly teenagers and pre-teens. I don't blame the bike, I blame the shops selling them and the parents allowing them without proper education on safety and proper riding gear. My son goes to the Carlsbad School district so we get all these emails about eBike safety courses and they are holding a town hall style meeting next week to address this with parents.

Check this out;








Carlsbad Goes After Reckless Riders of E-Bikes, Scooters, E-Boards


Violators may receive a citation or an option to attend a safety class




www.nbcsandiego.com





Again, not the bike to blame, education about use is a problem.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Communter Ebikes are 100% good. They eliminate a car on the road.

Mountain Ebikes are the devil and threaten your soul. 🤪


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## Roaming50 (Apr 30, 2009)

kevjob said:


> Where I am in Front range, Jeffco county allows emtb along with all Colorado State Parks, Maryland MTN, Floyd hill, Vail mountain so I have many options to choose from. I bought a Reign E+2 and have yet to ride it on trails but I am planning on shuttling White Ranch, Apex etc for multple runs a day where as my Ripmo AF I can only do Belcher Hill once as it is a beast.
> 
> If I was in area of limited access I would not have even considered an emtb.


I held off on getting an ebike because of the access issues. I used to live in Boulder and Boulder county is very anti-ebike but as you say Jeffco is the opposite. 

I now live in Wisconsin and WiDNR does not allow ebikes in any state parks, and many state parks do not even allow MTB. It’s awful. That said most Trail access is provided by the county and city parks and there at least there in so ban on ebikes.

I ordered my Orbea Rise (still waiting for it) to compliment my YT Izzo. As I found with my e-gravel bike I could ride further, make boring flatlands more interesting and ride more often. I’m expecting that the e-MTB will do the same. 


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Roaming50 said:


> and state parks do not even allow MTB. awful.


This is not true. 










Not sure if you have some physcial limitations, but if you don't really no need for an e-bike on the majority of WI Mountain Bike trail systems. Most only have moderate climbs.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

How does the Wisconsin State Trail Pass work? In Michigan, the state parks require a park pass on your vehicle. The license plate tags have a small p allowing you to enter the park or you can buy a day pass. Does Wisconsin have a pass for the actual bikes on a trail?


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## whipnet (Dec 30, 2021)

I see maybe 1 e-mtb per 50 bikes on the trails around me. I ride busy trails, so maybe just not a thing in Houston.

*


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

jimglassford said:


> How does the Wisconsin State Trail Pass work? In Michigan, the state parks require a park pass on your vehicle. The license plate tags have a small p allowing you to enter the park or you can buy a day pass. Does Wisconsin have a pass for the actual bikes on a trail?


If all you are doing is riding the trail you just have to buy a WI State Trail Pass...$25 Annual or $5 Daily. You don't need to buy a state park sticker/pass.

Too be honest, I've only been on one of those trails on that list a handful of times...Hartmann Creek. 

WI is blessed with so many mountain bike trails that are either FREE or only have a minimum annual fee and they are much better than the State Park offerings so I really don't bother with the State Park MTB trails. Not really worth my time.


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## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

prj71 said:


> *You look young and fit*. Why would you want to ride an e-bike?


What does that have to do with anything? BTW he is trolling he is super anti emtb even though does not own one and I bet has never ridden one so he gets his info from broscience.

I don't understand why some people think that someone has to be disabled or old to ride an emtb. I see younger guys than me (51) riding them here and there on trails near me. Never once thought why does this young guy need one. I bought one to do shuttle runs on my favorite downhill only trails that require climbs to get to them. Mtb I can do 1-2 runs at most. Emtb I think I can get 4-5 runs easily which would be a couple weeks worth of riding in one day.

Now I do have an knee issue, ITB related that does keep from riding 5 days a week which I am hopeful the EMTB will alleviate.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

kevjob said:


> What does that have to do with anything? BTW he is trolling he is super anti emtb even though does not own one and I bet has never ridden one so he gets his info from broscience.
> 
> I don't understand why some people think that someone has to be disabled or old to ride an emtb. I see younger guys than me (51) riding them here and there on trails near me. Never once thought why does this young guy need one. I bought one to do shuttle runs on my favorite downhill only trails that require climbs to get to them. Mtb I can do 1-2 runs at most. Emtb I think I can get 4-5 runs easily which would be a couple weeks worth of riding in one day.
> 
> Now I do have an knee issue, ITB related that does keep from riding 5 days a week which I am hopeful the EMTB will alleviate.


Hey that is just a young dude messing around with his Dad’s Aventon - happens every day lol


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

kevjob said:


> I don't understand why some people think that someone has to be disabled or old to ride an emtb.


Well outside of a physical limitation/disability (which I fully can understand for wanting an e-bike), don't don't most of us get into mountain biking or biking in general for the physical fitness aspect of it? And if you are young and fit and have no impairments then why get an e-bike?

In my mind, the big draw to biking is burning calories and keeping yourself physically fit to avoid all the health issues that are normally seen with sedentary folks. A person makes themself better and stronger when riding a _real _bike. E-bikes cheat people out of those attributes by doing the hard work for you. It enables a false sense of accomplishment and people will convince themselves they’re doing more work than they are to achieve the same results.

I will never begrudge someone that is physically impaired and wants to ride...So e-bikes do have a reason to exist.

But to everyone who doesn’t have a medical excuse, I say....go ride a real bike!!!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

prj71 said:


> Well outside of a physical limitation/disability (which I fully can understand for wanting an e-bike), don't don't most of us get into mountain biking or biking in general for the physical fitness aspect of it? And if you are young and fit and have no impairments then why get an e-bike?
> 
> In my mind, the big draw to biking is burning calories and keeping yourself physically fit to avoid all the health issues that are normally seen with sedentary folks. A person makes themself better and stronger when riding a _real _bike. E-bikes cheat people out of those attributes by doing the hard work for you. It enables a false sense of accomplishment and people will convince themselves they’re doing more work than they are to achieve the same results.
> 
> ...


What about those who only ride park via shuttle bus or chair lifts? They are riding a regular MTB, but are not doing it primarily for exercise, they are doing it because it is fun to ride downhill.

I see eBikers the same way, they want to get in more laps of downhill in places where shuttle vans or chairlifts cannot get you to the top.


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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

prj71 said:


> ...don't don't most of us get into mountain biking or biking in general for the physical fitness aspect of it? And if you are young and fit and have no impairments then why get an e-bike?


Nope, I got into mountain biking because I enjoy it and it's challenges. The physical aspect of it is secondary.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> What about those who only ride park via shuttle bus or chair lifts? They are riding a regular MTB, but are not doing it primarily for exercise, they are doing it because it is fun to ride downhill.
> 
> I see eBikers the same way, they want to get in more laps of downhill in places where shuttle vans or chairlifts cannot get you to the top.


I get what you are saying, but that kind of riding is hard for me to wrap my head around. Much like skiing, I never understood going down the hill and then back to the top to do it over and over all day long. But to each their own I guess. What I find boring, others find a thrill in.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

prj71 said:


> I get what you are saying, but that kind of riding is hard for me to wrap my head around. Much like skiing, I never understood going down the hill and then back to the top to do it over and over all day long. But to each their own I guess. What I find boring, others find a thrill in.


Personally I find enjoyment in both types of riding. Here is SoCal there are not many trails that are flat. Lots of up to get the down. Here is my relatively short ride last Friday, this ride has about 1/2 the elevation gain I normally go for.








That was done on my Intense Spider. If I had an eBike I could have done at the very least twice that mileage in the same time and done twice the downhills. 

Getting to do twice what you could without a motor is the main attraction to eBike riders.

When I pay for chairlift or organize a shuttle run we do get twice the mileage in the same time. Probably more than that really since places like Snow Summit would take me nearly all day to ride to the top.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

REZEN said:


> Nope, I got into mountain biking because I enjoy it and it's challenges. The physical aspect of it is secondary.


Pedaling uphill can be challenging. Having tried an e-bike at a demo once (Specialized Turbo) that challenge was totally removed. It was my first time riding up a hill that I wasn't breathing hard.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

prj71 said:


> Well outside of a physical limitation/disability (which I fully can understand for wanting an e-bike), don't don't most of us get into mountain biking or biking in general for the physical fitness aspect of it?


No. I certainly did not get into mountain biking for physical fitness, I got into it because it was fun. Same goes for all of my friends and ever person I've ridden with so far.

If I just wanted physical fitness, I'd just buy a road bike.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> Personally I find enjoyment in both types of riding. Here is SoCal there are not many trails that are flat. Lots of up to get the down. Here is my relatively short ride last Friday, this ride has about 1/2 the elevation gain I normally go for.
> View attachment 1985045
> 
> That was done on my Intense Spider. If I had an eBike I could have done at the very least twice that mileage in the same time and done twice the downhills.
> ...


Those are hills? Looks like you topped out around 400 ft. That looks flat compared to my local trail system. This is my relatively short ride of similar distance on my local trail last week. This was done on my Spot Mayhem.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

prj71 said:


> I get what you are saying, but that kind of riding is hard for me to wrap my head around. Much like skiing, I never understood going down the hill and then back to the top to do it over and over all day long. But to each their own I guess. What I find boring, others find a thrill in.


That's the thing though, you *don't *need to wrap your head around it, you just need to accept that people like doing it and *not judge them*. 

Exact same thing here, stop imposing your motivations on other riders and stop judging them for not doing things your way.


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## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

prj71 said:


> Those are hills? Looks like you topped out around 400 ft. That looks flat compared to my local trail system. This is my relatively short ride of similar distance on my local trail last week. This was done on my Spot Mayhem.
> 
> View attachment 1985052


Good for you bro. Who cares. You want a medal or pat on the back? LOL

Why are you posting in the ebike sub forum if you think they are cheating etc...? 

If you don't like ebikes don't ride one, easy peasy. 

I really don't understand people like yourself who think that what they do or why they do it is the only correct way.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

prj71 said:


> Those are hills? Looks like you topped out around 400 ft. That looks flat compared to my local trail system. This is my relatively short ride of similar distance on my local trail last week. This was done on my Spot Mayhem.
> 
> View attachment 1985052


You started at 1500 feet and topped out at 1600 feet? I live just above sea level. My point was not about the elevation I was riding at, just showing that on my 8 mile ride it was up or down, very little flat.

My graph shows a starting point just above 200 feet and 400 feet as the highest elevation. I did 854 total feet of elevation gain on the ride, again not a ton of climbing overall, but that is an average of 100 feet of elevation gain per mile.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

bad mechanic said:


> No. I certainly did not get into mountain biking for physical fitness, I got into it because it was fun. Same goes for all of my friends and ever person I've ridden with so far.
> 
> If I just wanted physical fitness, I'd just buy a road bike.


Hell, if I wanted just physical fitness.. I'd run.. or swim. Both are superior to a bike in that regard.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

prj71 said:


> Well outside of a physical limitation/disability (which I fully can understand for wanting an e-bike), don't don't most of us get into mountain biking or biking in general for the physical fitness aspect of it? And if you are young and fit and have no impairments then why get an e-bike?
> 
> In my mind, the big draw to biking is burning calories and keeping yourself physically fit to avoid all the health issues that are normally seen with sedentary folks. A person makes themself better and stronger when riding a _real _bike. E-bikes cheat people out of those attributes by doing the hard work for you. It enables a false sense of accomplishment and people will convince themselves they’re doing more work than they are to achieve the same results.
> 
> ...


That’s a great reason for you. I started around the early 90’s mountain biking. I loved BMX and dirt bike riding. I did BMX strictly for fun! Mountain biking looked like fun and sure enough, I found out I loved going downhill. Climbing was a necessary evil I had to do to enjoy the DH. Never rode for physical fitness. 

I saw you tried an ebike once and said the climb was super easy. You should try it again and go out with some other ebikers. I bet you’d have a different opinion. 


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## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

dysfunction said:


> Hell, if I wanted just physical fitness.. I'd run.. or swim. Both are superior to a bike in that regard.


Or both at the same time! Or else you are just cheating yourself....😁


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Ultimately, how you choose to enjoy (or not to) rolling through the woods isn't really something you need to have externally validated. Know thyself.

We get into the pointless debate because of blanket delusional equivalence statements and knee jerk justification. Just own it.

Like if a singer likes to use autotune and that's their art. Cool, great performances and new music has been created using fresh tools. But if they start talking about how 'dumb/luddite' those "soon to be replaced" gritty blues singers are, I think you should expect some pushback.


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## 938509 (9 mo ago)

Carl Mega said:


> Ultimately, how you choose to enjoy (or not to) rolling through the woods isn't really something you need to have externally validated. Know thyself.
> 
> We get into the pointless debate because of blanket delusional equivalence statements and knee jerk justification. Just own it.
> 
> Like if a singer likes to use autotune and that's their art. Cool, great performances and new music has been created using fresh tools. But if they start talking about how 'dumb/luddite' those "soon to be replaced" gritty blues singers are, I think you should expect some pushback.


I can actually really get behind this statement, personally an e-mtb would be an additional arrow in my quiver and not a replacement my other several traditional bikes. I just can't stand those who act like e-mtb's are the ultimate doom of the sport and have caused the great mtbpocslypse or some other unhinged shenanigan's they spout. But yea e-mtb's are definitely not going to get people as fit as some people tend to try to argue which is pretty odd argument . I personally also think they shouldn't replace normal mtb's but they're definitely super fun in their own right.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

mtbbiker said:


> I saw you tried an ebike once and said the climb was super easy. You should try it again and go out with some other ebikers. I bet you’d have a different opinion.


The fact that the climb was super easy is what turned me off about the whole e-bike thing. Kind of the opposite of what I want.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

prj71 said:


> Well outside of a physical limitation/disability (which I fully can understand for wanting an e-bike), don't don't most of us get into mountain biking or biking in general for the physical fitness aspect of it? And if you are young and fit and have no impairments then why get an e-bike?
> 
> In my mind, the big draw to biking is burning calories and keeping yourself physically fit to avoid all the health issues that are normally seen with sedentary folks. A person makes themself better and stronger when riding a _real _bike. E-bikes cheat people out of those attributes by doing the hard work for you. It enables a false sense of accomplishment and people will convince themselves they’re doing more work than they are to achieve the same results.
> 
> ...


You get in really good shape riding a' e mountain bike. I do.

And if you look at Europe, were e bikes started way before us, you'd be hard pressed to find skilled, young, fit riders not on e bikes

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

prj71 said:


> Well outside of a physical limitation/disability (which I fully can understand for wanting an e-bike), don't don't most of us get into mountain biking or biking in general for the physical fitness aspect of it? And if you are young and fit and have no impairments then why get an e-bike?
> 
> In my mind, the big draw to biking is burning calories and keeping yourself physically fit to avoid all the health issues that are normally seen with sedentary folks. A person makes themself better and stronger when riding a _real _bike. E-bikes cheat people out of those attributes by doing the hard work for you. It enables a false sense of accomplishment and people will convince themselves they’re doing more work than they are to achieve the same results.
> 
> ...


The entire reason I mountain bike is for physical fitness. If I just want to spend time in the forest, I could take a hike like I do in the Winter. I am concentrating so hard on the trail while riding, that I do not pay attention to the surroundings on either side of me. It is a good way to burn calories and improve the heart. I rode over 22 miles yesterday and it took two hours. Because I could do the same route in an hour by riding a motor scooter does not get me to the same goal. For me, the best part of the ride is when I put the bike back on the bike rack and head home. 

Biking is better than running because running is hard on the knees. I know a lot of people in my age group that have bad knees and they tell you it was from running when they were younger.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

jimglassford said:


> Biking is better than running because running is hard on the knees. I know a lot of people in my age group that have bad knees and they tell you it was from running when they were younger.


I've had a couple surgeries on one of my knees (from actual injury).. I can still run. This is largely, I believe, a myth. 

Should people run with knees that hurt when they run? Probably not. 
Did running cause those knee problems? Again, probably not.


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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

prj71 said:


> Pedaling uphill can be challenging. Having tried an e-bike at a demo once (Specialized Turbo) that challenge was totally removed. It was my first time riding up a hill that I wasn't breathing hard.


An e bike helps, but uphill tech is hard no matter ebike or not

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

REZEN said:


> An e bike helps, but uphill tech is hard no matter ebike or not


That is such a loaded statement. uphill tech is harder without a motor. I can guarantee that.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> That is such a loaded statement. uphill tech is harder without a motor. I can guarantee that.


All things in life are harder without a motor.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

prj71 said:


> Well outside of a physical limitation/disability (which I fully can understand for wanting an e-bike), don't don't most of us get into mountain biking or biking in general for the physical fitness aspect of it?


Like a lot of others are saying, got into it because it's fun. The other benefits are great, but secondary.

Don't get the self appointed gate keepers, but whatever...


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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

prj71 said:


> The fact that the climb was super easy is what turned me off about the whole e-bike thing. Kind of the opposite of what I want.


Get a levo ot kenevo sl. Still plenty workout, ill do 4200ft climbing 27mi with each lap upping the power mode to compensate from off till I run out. Tons of fun but I can still walk the next day and I have tuned down all 3 modes on my SL

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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

prj71 said:


> I get what you are saying, but that kind of riding is hard for me to wrap my head around. Much like skiing, I never understood going down the hill and then back to the top to do it over and over all day long. But to each their own I guess. What I find boring, others find a thrill in.


Snowboarding on a mountain is also a 🎉


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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

Klurejr said:


> That is such a loaded statement. uphill tech is harder without a motor. I can guarantee that.


You actually cannot guarantee that

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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

REZEN said:


> You actually cannot guarantee that
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


So now we've gone to 'motors are not work saving devices'. Ok. I ummm guess.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

prj71 said:


> Those are hills? Looks like you topped out around 400 ft. That looks flat compared to my local trail system. This is my relatively short ride of similar distance on my local trail last week. This was done on my Spot Mayhem.
> 
> View attachment 1985052


I'll see your piddly little ride and raise you one. (All in good fun mind you 🙂)


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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

mlx john said:


> I'll see your piddly little ride and raise you one. (All in good fun mind you )
> View attachment 1985116


Yup same! Thus is small beans compared to a few friends who would do the same as a night ride.


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## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

jimglassford said:


> *The entire reason I mountain bike is for physical fitness. * If I just want to spend time in the forest, I could take a hike like I do in the Winter. I am concentrating so hard on the trail while riding, that I do not pay attention to the surroundings on either side of me. It is a good way to burn calories and improve the heart. I rode over 22 miles yesterday and it took two hours. Because I could do the same route in an hour by riding a motor scooter does not get me to the same goal. For me, the best part of the ride is when I put the bike back on the bike rack and head home.
> 
> Biking is better than running because running is hard on the knees. I know a lot of people in my age group that have bad knees and they tell you it was from running when they were younger.


That is why YOU do it. I do it for fun first and exercise secondly. I am not replacing my Ripmo AF just complimenting it.

It is not a motor scooter, it does not, I repeat DOES NOT have a throttle. Once you stop pedalling the assist is over. But I guess you might know that and are just muddying the water for argument sakes.

If ebikes are not for you(pointing to your profile pic) why are you posting in ebike sub forum?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

REZEN said:


> You actually cannot guarantee that
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


I most certainly can. Show me just one single Technical climb that is easier without a motor.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

kevjob said:


> It is not a motor scooter, it does not, I repeat DOES NOT have a throttle.


Technically it is a throttle, it is a pedal activated throttle instead of a thumb or twist throttle. The difference is you have to put in the effort of spinning your pedals to keep the motor engaged. Not trying to be pedantic, but others will point this out as well.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

kevjob said:


> That is why YOU do it. I do it for fun first and exercise secondly. I am not replacing my Ripmo AF just complimenting it.
> 
> It is not a motor scooter, it does not, I repeat DOES NOT have a throttle. Once you stop pedalling the assist is over. But I guess you might know that and are just muddying the water for argument sakes.
> 
> If ebikes are not for you(pointing to your profile pic) why are you posting in ebike sub forum?


You have it a little backwards, the pedals assist the motor. The motor is producing more power than you are. Read the title of this thread, pedal assist mountain bike, not motor assisted. 

As for me posting in an e-bike forum, I can't have an opinion? I don't think drag racing should be allowed on city streets. Someone like you would tell me to keep my opinion to myself unless I own a Mustang. Using your logic, please do not mention Class Two bikes or higher since you do not own one. The Class one eBikes have a throttle, just not one you can control with your hand.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

6322 feet 2.5 hours


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## 2xPneu (Jan 26, 2004)

I have an ebike with a twist throttle. The throttle allows me to dial in the precise amount of power I want at any given moment. I ride with guys with pedal assist and nobody really gives a crap that I have a throttle since we all ride about the same pace…the fact I use a throttle isn’t even an issue. Really not sure what all the weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth is all about. And really don’t care, but it is fun watching the sh*t show.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

jimglassford said:


> As for me posting in an e-bike forum, I can't have an opinion?


if you don't like or ride an emtb why do you bother, i don't get it


2xPneu said:


> I have an ebike with a twist throttle. The throttle allows me to dial in the precise amount of power I want at any given moment. I ride with guys with pedal assist and nobody really gives a crap that I have a throttle since we all ride about the same pace…the fact I use a throttle isn’t even an issue. Really not sure what all the weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth is all about. And really don’t care, but it is fun watching the sh*t show.


exactly, i was pedalling along railroad grade one day and down came a ktm 950 in glorious power slide, it was beautiful


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

2xPneu said:


> I have an ebike with a twist throttle. The throttle allows me to dial in the precise amount of power I want at any given moment. I ride with guys with pedal assist and nobody really gives a crap that I have a throttle since we all ride about the same pace…the fact I use a throttle isn’t even an issue. Really not sure what all the weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth is all about. And really don’t care, but it is fun watching the sh*t show.


Twist throttle, single speed and a Lefty. There is nothing Right about that bike!!!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

prj71 said:


> don't don't most of us get into mountain biking or biking in general for the physical fitness aspect of it?


Resounding NO. I ride for fun. Period. 

I don't give a damn about calories, nor does my self-worth hinge upon winning imaginary exercise trophies or fooling myself that I'm somehow 'better' than someone else who chooses to spend their leisure time differently. 

If you think choosing to ride a regular bike somehow makes you better than someone who chooses to ride an e-bike, or moto, or anything else for that matter, you are not only wrong, but you need a serious ego-check. Get over yourself. Pedaling a toy around in the dirt doesn't make you special, sorry to break the news.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

prj71 said:


> Those are hills? Looks like you topped out around 400 ft. That looks flat compared to my local trail system. This is my relatively short ride of similar distance on my local trail last week. This was done on my Spot Mayhem.
> 
> View attachment 1985052


Looks like he's getting more elevation chance than you are, by a good bit. 
Maybe you aren't as great as you think you are.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jimglassford said:


> The entire reason I mountain bike is for physical fitness. If I just want to spend time in the forest, I could take a hike like I do in the Winter. I am concentrating so hard on the trail while riding, that I do not pay attention to the surroundings on either side of me. It is a good way to burn calories and improve the heart. I rode over 22 miles yesterday and it took two hours. Because I could do the same route in an hour by riding a motor scooter does not get me to the same goal. For me, the best part of the ride is when I put the bike back on the bike rack and head home.


This makes me sad. 

Why not just ride a stationary bike on your porch then?


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Resounding NO. I ride for fun. Period.
> 
> I don't give a damn about calories, nor does my self-worth hinge upon winning imaginary exercise trophies or fooling myself that I'm somehow 'better' than someone else who chooses to spend their leisure time differently.
> 
> If you think choosing to ride a regular bike somehow makes you better than someone who chooses to ride an e-bike, or moto, or anything else for that matter, you are not only wrong, but you need a serious ego-check. Get over yourself. Pedaling a toy around in the dirt doesn't make you special, sorry to break the news.


Snowmobiles, motorbikes, moto-cross bikes, ATVs...All fun. I've done all of those activities at one time or another in my life. Used to ride ATV and Snowmobile trails a lot. Except that they have designated trails for the non human powered machines so that they don't interfere with the human powered machines.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

prj71 said:


> Snowmobiles, motorbikes, moto-cross bikes, ATVs...All fun. I've done all of those activities at one time or another in my life. Used to ride ATV and Snowmobile trails a lot. Except that they have designated trails for the non human powered machines so that they don't interfere with the human powered machines.


So how is it you don't understand that lots of people ride bicycles for fun?

Seems like most of the e-bike 'interference' you're talking about is really just you getting emotional that not everyone does everything for the same reasons you do. Get over it.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

jimglassford said:


> As for me posting in an e-bike forum, I can't have an opinion? I don't think drag racing should be allowed on city streets. Someone like you would tell me to keep my opinion to myself unless I own a Mustang. Using your logic, please do not mention Class Two bikes or higher since you do not own one. The Class one eBikes have a throttle, just not one you can control with your hand.


You're welcome to have an opinion, but you're not welcome to express it here. The ebike forum has rules, two of which are no trolls and keep it positive. If you're against ebikes then please express those opinions somewhere else.

Ebike forum rules:








A word from E-bike Forum Moderator Mtbbiker - Guidelines


Wanted to mention that we wanted to grow the ebike forum and allow great discussions, especially on products. We'll have some guidelines that we're refining. Something like this: · Ebike forum is for generating a positive experience, no drama or trolls. · This section is for discussion of...




www.mtbr.com


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

bad mechanic said:


> You're welcome to have an opinion, but you're not welcome to express it here. The ebike forum has rules, two of which are no trolls and keep it positive. If you're against ebikes then please express those opinions somewhere else.
> 
> Ebike forum rules:
> 
> ...


Absolutely correct Bad mechanic, warning points sent out! I'll delete posts as needed. 

Thanks,


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

bad mechanic said:


> You're welcome to have an opinion, but you're not welcome to express it here. The ebike forum has rules, two of which are no trolls and keep it positive. If you're against ebikes then please express those opinions somewhere else.
> 
> Ebike forum rules:
> 
> ...


Expressing ones opinion that differs with another in a respectful manner is 100% allowed since that is not trolling. Riding that line of being a troll is what is going to get you warning points. Just because someone does not agree with you on everything does not mean they are a troll and while I am for eBikes in most places I understand when those here with a solid history of trail access relay some valid points,* that is not trolling*.

Sometimes threads wander or the topic lends itself to a broader discussion, this thread in fact lends itself to a very broad discussion that does include trail access since access will impact if eBikes are a majority on the trails where you might live. The trail rules vary from place to place.

They key is to be respectful, making personal attacks or directly violating the rules for this section is what will be enforced. If you did not click the link here are those rules:

· Ebike forum is for generating a positive experience, no drama or trolls.
· This section is for discussion of ebike, ebike specific accessories, stories or what's new in the OEM.
· Let's talk about legal only trails. *Any talk about illegal riding can be deleted at moderators discretion*
· Any post about derestricting/modifying software will be deleted.
· OEM bike discussion and technologies is the key target (Specialized, Giant, YT, Trek, Focus, Pivot, etc&#8230. Add-on motors, limit discussions to under 1000 watt varieties
· *Threads started to purposefully incite other users will be deleted.*
· If you cannot tell a difference between a motorcycle and class 1 or 2 ebike, please don't post.


IMO the entire thread breaks the rules of this section, but I will leave it up to the local mod to make that decision.

The point of this post is that no one should feel they are not allowed to express their viewpoint as long as they do so without trolling or inciting conflict.


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## Roaming50 (Apr 30, 2009)

prj71 said:


> This is not true.
> 
> View attachment 1984996
> 
> ...


I meant to write many state parks….

For me it’s an endurance and time thing. 10 years ago I could ride 40 miles and do 5,000 feet of climbing. Now it is more like 25 miles and 2,000 feet of climbing before my legs blow up with cramps. It’s also about recovery. 

With the ebike I can ride further, for longer and more often. The average speed will be up as well because while downhills will be much the same, I’ll climb quicker (today I climb between 2-6mph in general) and probably gain a couple mph on the flats as well (of which there’s a lot in WI). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Roaming50 (Apr 30, 2009)

jimglassford said:


> How does the Wisconsin State Trail Pass work? In Michigan, the state parks require a park pass on your vehicle. The license plate tags have a small p allowing you to enter the park or you can buy a day pass. Does Wisconsin have a pass for the actual bikes on a trail?


Yes, there is a vehicle pass and a trail pass. Barely anything of the trail pass goes towards mountain bike trails though. I’m sure I’m misquoting but my understanding was that the trail pass was dreamt up in the 90s by someone who didn’t like mountain bikers and it’s been a source on contention since. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> Expressing ones opinion that differs with another in a respectful manner is 100% allowed since that is not trolling.


I generally agree with that, but I also think people are trolling when they don't own an ebike, dislike ebikes, then tell people using ebikes are cheating.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

bad mechanic said:


> I generally agree with that, but I also think people are trolling when they don't own an ebike, dislike ebikes, then tell people using ebikes are cheating.


Not owning an eBike or disliking eBikes does not in itself make one a troll. Telling someone they are cheating because they use an ebike is not really trolling, but it is also not appropriate for this section. Trolling is when someone is posting in an attempt to goad others into a fight or just try to make others feel bad.

There is certainly a line there and many do get very close to it and some cross over.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> Not owning an eBike or disliking eBikes does not in itself make one a troll. Telling someone they are cheating because they use an ebike is not really trolling, but it is also not appropriate for this section. Trolling is when someone is posting in an attempt to goad others into a fight or just try to make others feel bad.
> 
> There is certainly a line there and many do get very close to it and some cross over.


I think you and I are just putting that line in slightly different places. For me, if I'm in the ebike forum and someone tells me ebikes are cheating, they're trolling for a reaction from me.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

bad mechanic said:


> I think you and I are just putting that line in slightly different places. For me, if I'm in the ebike forum and someone tells me ebikes are cheating, they're trolling for a reaction from me.


Yep, same with "you didn't earn your turns" BS.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

bad mechanic said:


> I think you and I are just putting that line in slightly different places. For me, if I'm in the ebike forum and someone tells me ebikes are cheating, they're trolling for a reaction from me.


And when they do that, report the post and do not respond to them. As soon as you respond to them the problem only gets expounded. If the post is reported then the mods can handle the post, and without replies the instigators lose steam and move on.


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## Joshhuber2 (May 2, 2021)

Increased trail traffic is the main agitator. The Ebike rider is just a vessel for frustrations. The anecdotal tales of misbehaving Ebikers is just as bad as the "I get a better workout with my pedal assist", as far as trolling goes. If you get offended because a Ebike pases you on a climb, thats on you. Just like, if you can't admit that pedal assist gives access to people who otherwise would have given up after the first climb on a regular bike. We are, as a whole, still a small community on the trail. My trail system here in Socal still is ten to one hiker/ bicycle. We need to band together in order to ensure our access to the trail system. As a mountain bike rider, if you support banning Ebikes, they will come after you next.


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## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

I rode my Reign E+2 today for the first time. One of my local trails, saw couple guys on the climb, let them know I was behind on an ebike and can pass whenever they feel comforatble. They both asked me about the bike but I did have alot of info to offer. As I was descending I pulled over over for the climbers like I always do. Everybody went about their day. 

It is easier on my ebike but the techy stuff comes down to skill. I rode for 15 years before taking 18 years off the bike, came back last year and my skill level was pretty good considering. I will still use my Ripmo AF as my legs got less of a workout but my cardio felt better as I was not redlining the whole climb. Did about 15 miles, 3K of climbing.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Joshhuber2 said:


> As a mountain bike rider, if you support banning Ebikes, they will come after you next.


Of note. Not actively pushing to give eBikes access where bicycles already have access is not the same as actively trying to get them banned.

Some trail ambassadors on this forum have expressed just how hard it was to get access for regular bikes and have no interest in trying to get access for eBikes due to the large number of hikers that cannot understand what an eBike is and is not. I have seen some here point to those trail ambassadors as being anti eBike, and that is not fair either.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

So I also bought a Creo SL. Every time I drop a vehicle off for service, I can now not drag the wife and drive 20 miles each way (wasting gas and time) in another gas-guzzler to follow me and pick me up and then take me back the next day or later!!!! This is amazing. I keep it in Eco or the middle setting, take it easy, and while I still feel it, I am not exhausted. I have done this on the old road bike but it gets exhausting in the heat and this is like 60%-70% of the effort and I am in shape to ride again the next day. I see all these as base miles and recovery rides. I'm certainly riding more and it keeps me I'm shape for sure. I still use the regular bikes so I don't lose my strength. That, in turn, helps me keep my rides in the lowest setting and increases my range. It has all just added to my riding and reduced my rest days. 

The shops I have visited...they are not the majority of sales at all, but they sell more of the less pricey e-commuter types (2K-4K) than eMTBs.


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## Roaming50 (Apr 30, 2009)

Flyer said:


> So I also bought a Creo SL. Every time I drop a vehicle off for service, I can now not drag the wife and drive 20 miles each way (wasting gas and time) in another gas-guzzler to follow me and pick me up and then take me back the next day or later!!!! This is amazing. I keep it in Eco or the middle setting, take it easy, and while I still feel it, I am not exhausted. I have done this on the old road bike but it gets exhausting in the heat and this is like 60%-70% of the effort and I am in shape to ride again the next day. I see all these as base miles and recovery rides. I'm certainly riding more and it keeps me I'm shape for sure. I still use the regular bikes so I don't lose my strength. That, in turn, helps me keep my rides in the lowest setting and increases my range. It has all just added to my riding and reduced my rest days.


Me to. A Creo SL Evo Expert was my first ebike. I'm not a roadie cause I hate road but this has allowed be to ride a lot in the "out-of-season" and night rides where MTB has not been practical. I like it enough that I am actually thinking of dumping my fat bike and just using the Creo in the winter months.


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## Lenny7 (Sep 1, 2008)

If my majority you mean not the majority, then yeah, I agree.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

Mountain biking just for exersize and not for fun is like having sex just for procreation and not for fun.


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## Joshhuber2 (May 2, 2021)

SkiTalk'er said:


> Mountain biking just for exersize and not for fun is like having sex just for procreation and not for fun.


Ha, ha. I was talking about this the other day. It feels so unnatural and wrong to try and get someone pregnant. I've spent my whole life trying to avoid that exact scenario and now you want me to do what? My wife and I were married for four years before we started trying.


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