# Disc tab + horizontal dropouts???



## theycallmeE (Aug 21, 2007)

Hi All,

Hoping to get some wisdom. How do you handle the set up of a disc brake caliper mount on a singlespeed with horizontal dropouts, in terms of 1) the brake caliper allowing for the removal of the rear wheel without having to be completely unbolted, and 2) making micro-adjustments in brake caliper position as one may need to tension a stretching chain?

I've seen the sort that people like Spot use which has sliding channels for the brake caliper. Is this the best way? Does someone else have a different solution, short of an integrated caliper mount and dropout (a la Paragon)?

I'm working with a welder who is not (I think) that hip to the disc brake thing. Any suggestions, pics or advise is greatly appreciated,

E


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Most good builders will not do a disk with horizontal mounts. It is a very poor way of doing it.

Stick with some sort of slider or ebb and you will be much, much more happy.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

Look at the Surly Karate Monkey, Soma Juice and Q-ball frames for ideas. Oh and the Redline Monocog and Origin 8 Scout as well.


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## stoiccycle (Oct 28, 2007)

yeah, sliders are best, but if you must, Kirk at bikelugs.com sells a slotted disk brake mount that works. I ran one on my last frame, and i could take my wheel off without any problems, (i have Avid BB7's with the rotor with the flat's on it, don't know what it is called) but i could turn the wheel just right and take it off that way, without loosening anything up.


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## I-S (Jul 8, 2005)

I have disc tabs with horizontal dropouts on my 24Seven. It does not work very well, as the lower caliper bolt must be undone to get the wheel out. I have some degree of adjustability because I use a front 160mm IS caliper (which would be 140mm on rear) on an A2Z + 20mm (ie for 20mm bigger disc, +10mm to the mounts) adapter to bring it up to the 160mm disc. The A2Z has slight slots in it which give a few millimetres of adjustment range for the caliper. 

If you're insistant on disc mount with horizontal dropouts, I would say that the on-one slot dropout system is best, with the caliper mounted between the stays so that the wheel slides backwards out of it.


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## BrendanC (Aug 11, 2005)

I'm in a similar situation right now, with a customer who wants horizontals with a disc rather than EBB or sliders. It's a matter of simplicity for him, he doesn't want parts that can move, creak, or get damaged over time.

I'll stay tuned here & show what we come up with.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*I don't think it's "simpler"*

It's more old-fashioned, but horizontal dropouts with a slotted disc tab (or whatever kludge you have to use to make things work) is not particularly "simpler" than a sliding dropout, IMO. Certainly not simpler to actually use, nor to build. I've *never* heard of anyone making the Paragons make noise or slip (at least if you use decent hardware and not the crap they supply). The horizontals are going to require chaintugs, a slotted disc mount, and about 5 minutes of work to remove the wheel every time...

</rant>

Sorry. I just think if you want "simple" and old-school, stick with v-brakes with your horizontal dropouts. If you want to enter the modern age and run discs, suck it up and use the right dropouts for the job. Horizontals and discs just don't go together very well. You can *make* it work, but you're much better off just doing something else. Heck, I'd rather run a freakin' chain tensioner and vertical dropouts.

BTW, this is directed at your customer and the OP, Brendan, not you. 

-Walt



BrendanC said:


> I'm in a similar situation right now, with a customer who wants horizontals with a disc rather than EBB or sliders. It's a matter of simplicity for him, he doesn't want parts that can move, creak, or get damaged over time.
> 
> I'll stay tuned here & show what we come up with.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

*We've done a couple...*

We think that the paragon sliders are probably the best solution. However, the ones we use ain't cheap(!) so we designed and had made an alternative solution that is not an upcharge with our frames. We've done a couple of frames with them and they turned out pretty good. Both customers said they could get the wheel to slide out of the drop out when aligning the rotor to the low point (trough?) before removing the wheel.


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## Drevil (Dec 31, 2003)

Wow! At the risk of being tarred and feathered by speaking against Walt and PVD, I really like my disc horizontal dropout on my Jamis Exile 29er. Unlike my old Karate Monkey, this has never required me to loosen the disc caliper (no matter where the axle is along the dropout). It also comes with integrated tensioners (i.e., screws). To make wheel removal a little easier, I used the Paul's knurled tensioner screw on the drive side so I can loosen it with my fingers and not need a 3mm allen. The disc side tensioner doesn't need to be loosened.

I really dig this setup because there's no chance of creaking like with an EBB, or slipping/moving around like sliding dropouts.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*How dare you!*

I'm mixin' up a bucket o' tar and getting ready to knife my wife's pillow as we speak!

Seriously, lots of things can work well. The slotted tab has been a great solution for production bikes where there's no way of knowing what kind of brakes the end user wants (and you stand the risk of losing 50% of your sales if both options aren't on the frame). If you're starting from scratch/going custom, though, I think they're silly. If you use the right hardware with a slider, it is *impossible* to make the dropout slip. Plus you can grab the QR lever and pop the wheel out in about 2 seconds. Neato!

If I was going to do the horizontal+disc thing, I'd definitely use the Paul dropouts, though. Still the only ones with decent tension screws around. I don't know why they aren't imitated by everyone.

-Walt


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

*CS mount*

Stick it on the CS like this Wolfhound and Soulcraft:


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## Drevil (Dec 31, 2003)

Walt said:


> I'm mixin' up a bucket o' tar and getting ready to knife my wife's pillow as we speak!
> 
> Seriously, lots of things can work well. The slotted tab has been a great solution for production bikes where there's no way of knowing what kind of brakes the end user wants (and you stand the risk of losing 50% of your sales if both options aren't on the frame). If you're starting from scratch/going custom, though, I think they're silly. If you use the right hardware with a slider, it is *impossible* to make the dropout slip. Plus you can grab the QR lever and pop the wheel out in about 2 seconds. Neato!
> 
> ...


Ha! Yeah, I have two friends with the ti Paragon dropouts (from different builders), and they had a bit of trouble with them moving around and slipping until they experimented and found screws at the hardware store that worked better than the ones that came with it.

Those Paul dropouts are beauties and probably what I'd spec if having a custom steel frame made.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

I'm just about to finish a bike with horizontals and disk.

The customer is running this set-up currently with a bolt-on hub and has had no issues, even without tugs or screws. He requested the arrangement and wanted the caliper placed at 12:00 with no adjustment. You can worry about uneven pad wear at the extremes... or you can just ride.

I never liked the Paul's D/Os, honestly. They remind me of C'dale's '90s frankendropouts (just a little) and you have to undo the screws every time you remove the wheel. Too much hassle.

Paragon sliders are nice, but they're about $80 more than most horizontals.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Paul DO's are junk. Simple. A bro of mine has a Steelman made with them. What a joke.

I tend to build with paragon sliders for XC type stuff. They do cost, but they are clean and they work very well.

It's also important to not discount the EBB. Most people that have had EBB problems are due to the builder not actually making the parts fit properly and reaming the shell post weld. It's almost a joke. They do weigh slightly more than sliders in the end, but the rear wheel is dead solid to the frame. I am going to be doing some 26" BMX frames this summer that will be using EBB. Cheap and solid when done right.

see: http://www.pvdwiki.com/index.php?title=Shimming_Eccentric_Bottom_Brackets


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## Drevil (Dec 31, 2003)

pvd said:


> Paul DO's are junk. Simple. A bro of mine has a Steelman made with them. What a joke.


Can you explain why they are a joke or junk? Or is it because it's a Steelman it is a junky joke? Or even because your bro has it that it's jokey junk? Enquiring minds want to know.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I'm pretty sure that this is what I'm talking about: (from Steelman's site)










The complexity and difficulty using this system is near maximum. Using anything other that bolt on hubs (lame) results in a full dissassembly. Both of these options are completely unacceptable on the trail. By using either slider style or EBB. You can use a simple QR for fast and easy wheel changes without adjusting your brakes. You can also chose to use 10mm TA, a much more intellegent choice over bolt-on.

At first my buddy thought that the Paul DO's were super because Steelman said so, but in the year or so that he has been riding with them, he wishes that he had just gotten the paragon DOs.


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## Drevil (Dec 31, 2003)

MMkay...after looking at that picture and reading your description, I agree. Thanks for taking the time.


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## heeler (Feb 13, 2004)

pvd said:


> I'm pretty sure that this is what I'm talking about: (from Steelman's site)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow...that looks like a mess. Why the additional external sliding piece, when the upper portion of the dropout could have been slotted to work with the caliper????

On a side note, has anyone seen the blackcat tensioning system. More of a swinger than slider. Very cool. Looking for pictures now.


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## Drevil (Dec 31, 2003)

On-One said:


> Wow...that looks like a mess. Why the additional external sliding piece, when the upper portion of the dropout could have been slotted to work with the caliper????
> 
> On a side note, has anyone seen the blackcat tensioning system. More of a swinger than slider. Very cool. Looking for pictures now.


Black Cat


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## heeler (Feb 13, 2004)

Thats it...thanks.


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## BrendanC (Aug 11, 2005)

It could be old fashioned, but...
He's embarking on a VERY long race with this bike & has had problems with the other formats, nothing but good luck with horizontals. I do see where he's coming from. 

Though EBBs have worked really well for me, I can appreciate his concern about the saddle/pedal relationship. 

My personal experience with sliders has been outstanding, though I had two warranty situations arise with an older design we used, with big guys riding them (one a 230lb hardman). For the most part, these have been my go-to tensioning method.

Nonetheless, having a good horizontal setup is just another tool in the shed, I'm sure the need will be there again. btw, I really like the direct-mounted Avid brake setup on the (Wolfhound?). Looks good, nice to get rid of all the extra little parts.


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## theycallmeE (Aug 21, 2007)

*Wow!*

Hi All,

I'm amazed and impressed with the cornucopia of opinions, photos and expertise my question generated. Also, hopefully this has been productive for those interested and not just a big can of worms...

Maybe I should have been more specific with my question. I have a steel singlespeed frame which came built for V-brakes - it's about 5 years old. I do want to enter the modern age because IMO discs are far superior in just about every way to V-brakes (and I run them on my other bikes and find it's hard to adjust to having them, then not having them, then having them, etc.). I do not want to buy a whole new bike or have a custom frame designed from scratch. I do not want to change the bottom bracket to an EBB because it's my belief (maybe wrong) that this change would be costlier, more hassle, and still require me to have a disc tab installed as well as changing the dropouts.

I would be delighted to have sliding dropouts from Paragon (or something like it) but the cost of buying and installing these would just about exceed the entire original cost of the frame, which seems silly to me. So, I was looking for a not-too-expensive fix for a reasonable-quality frame that I like. I'm not a frame builder - just a singlespeeder looking for a bit of an upgrade.

Drevil, I really like the look of your set-up and it sounds like it's relatively hassle free in terms of wheel removal. CBaron, your set-up looks clean too. I will show both of these to my welder friend :thumbsup:

Thanks all, for your input and thoughts. I have consistently found these forums to be positive, collaborative and helpful, unlike some other forums I have participated in. Cheers,

E


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

That BlackCat swinging DO is pretty cool. Hadn't seen that one yet. Thanks.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

jumping in a bit late, but here's my dos centavos: i've built some of all, and alot of a few.........and, i think they all work pretty well if executed properly. and, some folks will f-up anything you give them, and some will be ok with anything. if someone ASKS what i recommend, i say paragon sliders, $150.00 upgrade, thank you very much. if folks want an ebb, i say ok, i like sliders better, but if you must, $175.00 upgrade, set screws only. if they want the pacenti slotted option, i say ok, $25.00 upgrade. and, fwiw, i have never had a complaint about ANY of them......just make sure that your customer knows the pros & cons of each system, and try to walk them through until you figure out what will work best for them. and i'll pass this on: the most important thing i learned how to do in my framebuilding career is how to say "no". if something works poorly, it will inevitable be YOUR fault, not the person who demanded the xyz widget......and, it sorta IS. and, if you wanna do an ebb, i'd be glad to let go of some custom 73mm custom ebb's i've got with all the hardware included.......PM me. i have a shatload. steve.


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## AteMrYeats (Oct 26, 2004)

No experience with this, but I'd bet that this set up is ideal (barring caliper clearance issues). I've been toying with the idea of making some out of 4130 plate, but without help from a machine, it would take forever.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

Here are the drop's I use on my production Secret Agent frames .
there all one piece machined from solid 1/4" 4130 stock , then step machined on the outside for the axle slot.

















Here's a shot in a inner slideing dropout plate I did a few years back








Here's a shot of the same dropout with a hub in it


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## Pivvay (Aug 19, 2004)

*why horizontals and disks?*

At the risk of jumping into the shark tank...

If I was getting a new bike for SS multi day races, I would want horizontals. Here is why and it's based on experiences I've had so far with my Monocog (check the blog or MTBR search if you want to know more).

I want (hydro) disks. They're superior in terms of reliablity and power for me and 140mm rear is plenty to make me happy. I had a v-brake on the rear and disc up front for a while but since I've gone disk I haven't looked back.

Now how can we deal with chain tension:
ENO - Out because it's a dedicated wheel and I'm cheap so race wheels have to do double if not triple duty

EBB - Out because I do NOT want to change my saddle position and I do change gearing from something like Rim Ride to something like TransIowa. Plus creaks, shell ovalization, etc are things I do not want to deal with and say what you want, I've seen it first hand by people I trust.

Sliders - These are cool and probably the best choice for a lot of people but not me. Functionally they work well for most people eventually but I know plenty of people who have them slip. However long term there are extra pieces to loose or break or wear out and that doesn't make me happy. Plus they're ugly. Sorry it's true and I know at least some of you give a crap about how your bike looks.

Horizontals - Uses a regular wheel, no extra pieces on the frame to break. Slot the disc tabs and adjustment is there. Maybe the chain tug is an extra piece but I can carry a spare right on the bike or in a saddle bag and they weigh less than an ounce. Heck BMXers use them so finding one in a small town isn't out of the question. I've done ALL my SS riding with a QR skewer and a DS chain tug. I was hesitant to go disks initially but I finally jumped when my last good v-brake wheel died. It's been smooth sailing with any decent quick release I've tried on my monocog.

Problems with horizontals? 
Flat repair time - It's a non issue *for me*. When I'm tired in an ultra it will take me a few minutes to sit down and change a flat anyway. An extra piece (the chain tug) doesn't bother me. In an XC race if I can't "big air it" and reseal my Stans'd wheel I'm out of contention anyway. I can't have any major drama and still podium in XC, I'm just not fast enough. Plus I rarely flat anymore with sealant and a non-weight weenie tire. I rode the same tires at the KTR, Grand Loop, 24 hours of Moab, several white rims and a lot of training miles without ever flatting this year. I picked up about 100 goatheads in those same tires this weekend and guess what, still holding air. So the tread is dead but still no flats...

Wheel removal - With a good design I don't see why this is a problem at all. I can pull my round Hayes rotor right out the back on my Monocog. No loosen the caliper or put the rotor in a special spot or anything. Put it on the chainstay and this problem seems like it's totally gone as well.

Brake adjustment with gearing change - Takes 30 seconds if I do it at all. In practice I can change 2 teeth on the rear cog up or down and the brakes work fine without adjustment or any strange wear.

Wheel slip - This worries me the most but I'm getting it to work with an old quick release and a tug on the driveside only. With bolt on hubs or a non DS tug I can't see how this is a major problem for others?

Okay that would be my reasoning. Feel free tear it apart but if you don't have some serious real life big miles to back it up experience, I'll probably just ignore it. That was longer than I thought it would be!

EDIT: Also are Paragons available for aluminum frames BTW?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Whatever works.*

If it works, it works. In my experience, having built probably 50 paragon slider frames and having put ~10k miles on my own (including being on the pro podium here in CO a couple of times, and very much not on the podium a whole lot more), they simply do not slip as long as you use the hardware that I supply with them. The paragon hardware is junk and can't be tightened enough to keep the sliders in place. I don't even bother using the tension screws, because I don't need them - the slider bolts are more than enough to keep the wheel in place. And thus far, in probably 10,000 person/hours of riding done by my own customers, I have yet to hear of ANYONE breaking *any* part of the dropout.

I can't speak to looks, because I'd ride something that looked like a wagon full of pancakes if I thought it would be faster or more fun. I'm not planning to spend much time looking at my bike, so I don't worry about it much. Hell, I haven't washed it in like a year! Others obviously have different priorities.

The cost thing is a fair point. They do cost 2-3x what a good horizontal does. But that's mostly because they're stainless, which is (IMO) worth it for something that needs to stay unpainted to work right.

I think the bottom line is that all of these solutions work. I just feel that the sliders have the fewest problems of any singlespeed dropout I've seen so far.

-Walt



Pivvay said:


> Okay that would be my reasoning. Feel free tear it apart but if you don't have some serious real life big miles to back it up experience, I'll probably just ignore it. That was longer than I thought it would be!


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## Pivvay (Aug 19, 2004)

Hey Walt,

I value your opinion since you do have a lot of experience and I do think Paragons are the right choice for a lot of people, just maybe not me. However in Brendan's case that may be moot anyway as are they available in aluminum?

One other small point and like you said, all solutions work, isn't a Paragon almost the same as a horizontal with 2 bolts cranking down on the "sliding part" vs a quick release or bolt on hub clamping to the dropout itself? It makes the wheel change a little quicker by trading fixed disc alignment for extra frame "pieces" but otherwise when you really look at both systems, they are not a whole lot different. On the horizontal you get a little more simple setup at the expense of having to adjust your brakes with slotted tabs and maybe use a chain tug.

To me, cost is a non-issue. If I'm paying for a new frame, the minor upcharge of sliders, custom or stock, isn't a deciding factor though for others it may be.

Fun discussion. Anyone else feel free to keep other useful data/ideas coming.


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## Treybiker (Jan 6, 2004)

Walt said:


> they simply do not slip as long as you use the hardware that I supply with them.
> 
> -Walt


I'm having a frame built with the sliders. Any particular place you get your hardware from Walt?


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

Pivvay said:


> EDIT: Also are Paragons available for aluminum frames BTW?


If you want some nice pre-designed and manufactured in stock 7005 drops, drop Mike Ahrens a line.









https://ahrensbicycles.com/Sliding-Dropouts.htm

He can run these in 6061 as well.

I really think that Brad at Nempro (and other folks who do the same thing) has the right idea when it comes to singlespeed and discs though...

A fixed break mount properly rotated for disc clearance, nominally centered on the chain length for the gear combo you design the bike for. 
Hardtail frames should not have moving parts in my opinion! Then again, I don't like singlespeeds for anything other than dirtjumpy kinda bike. 
Makes me a grumpy fart, and pisses off people who call and want to order a "ss" frame.


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## BrendanC (Aug 11, 2005)

SuspectDevice said:


> If you want some nice pre-designed and manufactured in stock 7005 drops, drop Mike Ahrens a line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The dropouts in the pics are the older Ahrens models. The newer ones are a little thicker, have M8 hardware instead of M6, and the slider (as opposed to the receiver) gets hard anodized as well for a little more wear resistance. They are promising indeed. We just finished a frame with a pair; they look good.

Good thread by the way!


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

Yeah, I should have mentioned those are the older ones. I have set of the new ones on my desk along with a set of the fixed length drops as well. Nifty chunks of bauxite... Now if only there were more 7005 tubing options...


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## Pivvay (Aug 19, 2004)

SuspectDevice said:


> A fixed break mount properly rotated for disc clearance, nominally centered on the chain length for the gear combo you design the bike for.


Got a picture of one of these? I'd love to have a little chat with the owner of a bike with something like that. My experience with the slotted tabs/track ends is that I don't even adjust the brake most of the time going 2 teeth up or down in the back so I could see that working just fine in real life.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

Pivvay said:


> Got a picture of one of these? I'd love to have a little chat with the owner of a bike with something like that. My experience with the slotted tabs/track ends is that I don't even adjust the brake most of the time going 2 teeth up or down in the back so I could see that working just fine in real life.


The drops Mickey ( thanks for the refrance BTW :thumbsup: ) was refering to I posted above .
My disk specific drops for jumping frames are non ajsutable , the axle slot is less than 1" long and center so at any point were the rear axle can be ran the int he rear drops the disk caliper is always withing the normal operating range for the disk brake .

I've been rideing fixed disk tabs like this on my bikes for the past 10+ years without any problem .

The slideing system i designed is also sorta cool as the inner disk tab slides with in the rear axle plane of the drop like a chain tensioner . These turned out working allot better than I first had thought and will be going into production later .

I'm also thinking of selling our drops non Nemesis Engraved on our new webstore for other frame builders to use .


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## tedsti (Oct 22, 2004)

*Facing the slots*

For those of you running slotted brake tabs, how do you face them? My rear brake squeals like mad since I don't have a good surface mount on.


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## MrCookie (Apr 24, 2005)

*Disc adapter like Nemesis*

Santa Cruz did a similar sliding adapter for their early Chameleons. The downside to theirs was that the caliper hung off the bottom which made cable/hose routing awkward.

The idea has merit though, and it would be a nice option for frames with horizontal DO's.


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

This solution from Nicolai is totally brilliant, sadly a little complicated to implement, but a sound concept to keep in mind anyway.

Basically the two sides of the Hub, stay attach to the swingarm holding the brake rotor on one side and the "Cog set" on the other side on a affix position with out disturbing the set up at all.

When you tight the axle, the spines of the hub engage to the side plates as you can see on the picture.









Brilliant, simple, elegant and super fast.









I have seeing this same system on endurance racing motorcycles (24 hour racers, Daytona etc) were they change tires a bunch of times during the race, and provides for a reliable 10 second wheel exchange.


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