# I Must Be STUPID- What Is Trail Incision???



## traildoc (Mar 5, 2007)

Rockman sent me the 21 page study that our friend Joe had given him to read about why Flagstaff downhill trails were going to have problem being maintained. I always like to think I know a little about trails, so I read the article. 

I can say one thing for sure if you are having a problem sleeping this is a great read. 

What the heck is incision? This is an excerpt from the article: 


This study uses Common Ecological Regions (CERs) as a mapped
ecological framework to guide comparative analysis of differences in
maximum trail incision and trail width at varying slope levels for mountain
bike trails in five CERs in the southwest U.S. A point-measurement trail
assessment procedure was utilized to measure maximum incision and
width for 163.2 miles of mountain bike trails. Results show a significant
effect of CER on trail width and maximum incision and a significant effect
of trail slope on maximum trail incision. Maximum trail width and incision
were greatest in the Arizona/New Mexico Mountains region, perhaps due
to environmental features such as erodable soils and sparse trailside
vegetation, higher use, and/or user behavior. Maximum incision increased
consistently with slope for three of five CERs.


If anyone wants to read the whole report let me or rockman know. The file was too big (700 KB) to attach to this post.


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

traildoc said:


> Rockman sent me the 21 page study that our friend Joe had given him to read about why Flagstaff downhill trails were going to have problem being maintained. I always like to think I know a little about trails, so I read the article.
> 
> Maximum trail width and incision
> were greatest in the Arizona/New Mexico Mountains region, perhaps due
> ...


Trail Doc,

I was so happy this morning, after setting a PR on my morning run, that I took the day off work and spent 6 hours doing some much needed trail improvements. What I noticed was the soils were not unusually erodable and there was actually very dense trailside vegetation. Whatever incision is, the people doing the study have used rather nebulus terms like user behavior to allow it to mean whatever they like. Sort of like when it's really cold it's because of global warming. And when it's really hot, it's also because of global warming. If the temps stay at an average, guess what, it's because of global warming.

They are trying to make trail design, construction, and maintenance overly complex, when it is not. You build a stretch of trail and let people come and enjoy it. If it rains, check the drains and see if they need cleaning out. If a section stays muddy, outslope it more or cut a drain. If vegetation grows across the trail, remove it. Sometimes you will need to do a lot of maintenance, and sometimes you won't. It's not rocket science.

How are the trails in Downieville? I envy you. Despite retiring at age 34, I made the mistake of getting a job to pay for more and more toys. Maybe I'll see the light and re-retire, so I can ride every day and travel all over, like you.


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## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

While riding a bike is a cool thing to enjoy... there are other things in life as well.... you goobers need to find a balance......:madman:


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## m77ranger (Jan 12, 2009)

The depth that the trail tread penetrates into the soil. Seriously though, its pretty easy to understand. The title of this thread should have only been four words long.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

m77ranger said:


> The depth that the trail tread penetrates into the soil. Seriously though, its pretty easy to understand. The title of this thread should have only been four words long.


He, hehehe, he, hehe. Penetrates.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Good golly Traildoc, it's a journal article. You cut and pasted the abstract. Go read the methods section if you want to see how "incision" is defined. Obviously, there is going to be some jargon in this sort of thing, so I can dumb it down for you if you like:thumbsup:


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## traildoc (Mar 5, 2007)

m77ranger said:


> The depth that the trail tread penetrates into the soil. Seriously though, its pretty easy to understand. The title of this thread should have only been four words long.


I kinda figured it must be depth, but I couldn't figure out why they didn't show any pictures to give the readers a feel for what they were discussing. They just had a bunch of charts which were hard for me to interpret.

When you have adequate rolling dios to shed water there would have been less incision, right?

Our study does suggest that moderate to severe slopes are an area of 
management concern for increased incision; although we did not assess 
erosion (e.g., through cross sectional area), this is also a concern for 
moderate to severe slopes. This is potentially problematic as studies have 
shown that mountain bikers tend to prefer trails with steeper slopes, 
downhill features, and sharp curves (Cessford, 1995b; Goeft & Alder, 
2001; Hollenhorst et al., 1995). For the trails in our study, the impacts were 
relatively modest, but systematic monitoring would be prudent. Managers 
may also want to clearly define and encourage a narrow trail tread in 
environments, such as the Arizona/New Mexico Mountains, that facilitate 
free travel along the trail periphery and on multiple-use trails where hikers 
and bikers frequently pass one another.

A final contribution of this study is the introduction of CERs as an 
organizing eco-spatial framework for recreation impact research. Additional 
studies that use this framework will facilitate comparisons of findings 
and ultimately allow for increased statistical power and meta-analyses to 
isolate the relative importance of various causal and influential factors on a
wide range of impacts. Such studies, especially when using GIS analyses, 
have the potential to assist researchers and managers in moving from 
localized investigations to regionalized generalizations. Despite limitations, 
this study represents an exploratory first step in this progression.

TD


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## m77ranger (Jan 12, 2009)

traildoc said:


> I kinda figured it must be depth, but I couldn't figure out why they didn't show any pictures to give the readers a feel for what they were discussing. They just had a bunch of charts which were hard for me to interpret.
> 
> When you have adequate rolling dios to shed water there would have been less incision, right?
> 
> ...


Did you write your check to the Flagstaff Gravity Riders yet?


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## traildoc (Mar 5, 2007)

m77ranger said:


> Did you write your check to the Flagstaff Gravity Riders yet?


ranger:

That is a great question and you are a good salesperson. Can I share your PM to me with the MTBR viewers, asking me to send money to help out the FGR? As you are aware my original intent was to try and help raise some money for IMBA since they might not get any taxpayer money. I thought it might be interesting to see if a select group of MTBR members who don't like my posts are actually recent supporters of IMBA, obviously they aren't.

Mt wife always wants to support IMBA, but I kinda thought since I am donating hundreds of hours to the Sedona FS, I was doing my share.

I thought about your request a lot while I was working on the Downieville Downhill Course today. It was nice being able to work on a FS trail w/o being concerned that I needed a permit to improve the condition of the course.

I was working with the person who has made the Downieville Classic a world class event. Gregg is a very special person and I have been fortunate to be able to talk with him about how the Sierra Buttes Stewardship works. He said their club is an IMBA member, but it really doesn't work for them on a local basis, so they have to do that part themselves inorder to get new trails and maintain their existing trails.

One of their latest projects called Mill Peak cost $5 a foot to build. This week at the Classic they are going to be selling $5 raffle tickets to help build a war chest for their next project. Gregg is a dreamer, and while working on the course today, with his buddy Cosmo, they shared a new project idea with me about a new section of trail that will make the Classis Downhill race even better in future years. It is fun being around people who can make their dreams happen :thumbsup:.

Last year they had 12 feet of snow on the upper end of the course one week before the race. No one believed that the event would take place except for Gregg and a bunch of his close friends. Anyway they worked day and night clearing snow and the race took place, I guess that's what you call initative.

Last year due to the melting snow the downhill course crossed a raging waterfall section that only one or two racers cleaned. A couple days ago while riding the course I came up to the same waterfall section that was covered with loose rocks and I had remembered the secret line through that section. There were three young riders walking the section and I blew by them. I know you could have done the same thing if you knew the line, but for a couple seconds I thought wow that was cool.

Before I give the FGR any money I would like to work a couple days help building the new trail to make sure I am not pissing my money away. Hope that works for you.

Can you please explain what the money for FGR would go for at this point in time?

TD


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

traildoc said:


> I kinda figured it must be depth, but I couldn't figure out why they didn't show any pictures to give the readers a feel for what they were discussing. They just had a bunch of charts which were hard for me to interpret.
> 
> When you have adequate rolling dios to shed water there would have been less incision, right?
> 
> ...





> studies have
> shown that mountain bikers tend to prefer trails with steeper slopes,
> downhill features, and sharp curves


What sort of mountain bikers did these people study? Sharp curves? Steeper slopes?

If Rockman approves of crap like this, I no longer think he'd be someone I'd want in charge of trail building for a land managing agency. Nothing would get done except lots of studies.

My method is to meet with land managers, get the needed funding, meet on the work site to discuss the type of work needed, then, when they leave, do the work the way it needs to be done, ignoring most of their suggestions. And they never come back out and complain, because they see that everything was done to precise standards, and it holds up great to heavy use.

I think the gravity riders will get their trails built, but it will be despite studies like this. Rockman suggested the FS will be using studies like this to make decisions about trail layout. They won't. If Joe sent them a copy of the study, by now, they have already tossed it in the garbage. They know what they want to do, and they know some bookworms who sit in an office most of the time, and don't ride trails, have no idea how to gather data that is of any use. Talking to two or three downhillers about what type of trails they like to ride, and then writing down in a study that all riders prefer steep trails with tight turns, shows the people doing the study were lazy and inept and have no knowledge of what trail building is about. The FS knows this and will ignore nonsense like this and idots like Joe who only want to shut down trails made for downhillers.


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## traildoc (Mar 5, 2007)

The Prodigal Son said:


> What sort of mountain bikers did these people study? Sharp curves? Steeper slopes?
> 
> If Rockman approves of crap like this, I no longer think he'd be someone I'd want in charge of trail building for a land managing agency. Nothing would get done except lots of studies.
> 
> ...


TPS:

Thanks for doing a simple analysis of the study, I think you hit a home run on this one. I keep trying to give you the rep points you deserve, but the computer keeps telling me NO CAN DO.

You and rockman are my favorite posters and I feel bad when you misinterpret his trying to be the politically correct guy who doesn't want to hurt Joe's feelings about one of his favorite studies.

TD


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

The Prodigal Son said:


> What sort of mountain bikers did these people study? Sharp curves? Steeper slopes?
> 
> If Rockman approves of crap like this, I no longer think he'd be someone I'd want in charge of trail building for a land managing agency. Nothing would get done except lots of studies.
> 
> ...


Honorable Prodigal Son, I'm not surprised that you don't understand the paper and your first response is to go into attack mode. How well is your "method" working out for you? My impression is that for the last couple of years you are more on the sidelines than a player.

My point since you seem to have missed it is that if you are in a meeting with land managers or submitting a proposal for new trails is it would behoove the real players with motivation and incentive like RA, Chalkpaw, and Anthony to be aware of studies like this. Or, have someone on your TEAM that does. So, when someone like Joe starts spouting facts from said study then you are able to refute them or at least be able to provide a counterpoint.

For example, my next move might be to contact one of the authors and find out exactly which trails they studied. I would then look harder at their methods and see if the error is greater than the depth of incision they measured. Are the results statistically valid? It's not surprising to me that they found that trail erosion is greater in AZ and NM than elsewhere. WRT to the MEDL project I don't think it means squat but the Red Rock District listens very closely to what their hydrologist has to say.

Better to have all the facts than stay in the dark. If you don't believe that then we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## traildoc (Mar 5, 2007)

rockman said:


> Honorable Prodigal Son, I'm not surprised that you don't understand the paper and your first response is to go into attack mode. How well is your "method" working out for you? My impression is that for the last couple of years you are more on the sidelines than a player.
> 
> My point since you seem to have missed it is that if you are in a meeting with land managers or submitting a proposal for new trails is it would behoove the real players with motivation and incentive like RA, Chalkpaw, and Anthony to be aware of studies like this. Or, have someone on your TEAM that does. So, when someone like Joe starts spouting facts from said study then you are able to refute them or at least be able to provide a counterpoint.
> 
> ...


rockman:

Are the guys who wrote the study located at NAU?

This research was supported through a Cooperative Agreement between
the Bureau of Land Management, Arizona State University, and
Northern Arizona University, and facilitated by the_* Colorado Plateau
Cooperative Ecosystem Studies Unit.*_ The authors would like to acknowledge
Don Applegate from BLM Arizona and Phil Morlock from Shimano
American Corporation for their support and assistance with this project.

Is it normal to not list the trails and take pictures of the spots they collected their data from?


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

traildoc said:


> rockman:
> 
> Are the guys who wrote the study located at NAU?
> 
> ...


Pam Foti is a coauthor and is at NAU. Pamela E. Foti, Ph.D., Professor
Her email [email protected]

I'm sure she'd be more than happy to discuss their findings and answer any questions. There's only so much you can squeeze into a journal article with a word/page limit. Sometimes the actual data and/or coordinates of repeat photo locations or monumented benchmarks are included in an appendix or can be requested from the authors.


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## Velokid1 (May 3, 2005)

Now that we've defined 'trail incision' ... The only DH trail I've happened upon in Flagstaff, since I don't make it up there as often as I'd like, is Jedi. Hopefully the rest of them are built better than that.


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## Casual Observer (Jan 12, 2004)

The Prodigal Son said:


> My method is to meet with land managers, get the needed funding, meet on the work site to discuss the type of work needed, then, when they leave, do the work the way it needs to be done, ignoring most of their suggestions.


After doing a truly amazing night ride last night, followed by a couple tasty adult beverages, I had the opportunity to watch the 200 IM semifinals at a local pizzeria with some good friends. It was just another night in the life of CO. And I realize how blessed I am to not have a ball and chain holding me back from doing such thing.

Know why does this not surprise me?

I still have no idea why you all choose to make posts like this on a public forum.

(I've decided that every single one of my posts will include some personal information about recent activities, as my goal is to get to 1 million words on MTBR.)


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## Stormin_Norman (Feb 26, 2012)

all bullSH!T.
frigging treehuggin arseclowns.


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

I wonder if cows and deer think about all this before they choose a path, you know, sustainability and all. 

Cows rough in the best dirt bike trails in the areas around PHX. I think TD should be studying cattle......


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

*may the force be with you*



rockman said:


> Honorable Prodigal Son, I'm not surprised that you don't understand the paper and your first response is to go into attack mode. How well is your "method" working out for you? My impression is that for the last couple of years you are more on the sidelines than a player.
> 
> My point since you seem to have missed it is that if you are in a meeting with land managers or submitting a proposal for new trails is it would behoove the real players with motivation and incentive like RA, Chalkpaw, and Anthony to be aware of studies like this. Or, have someone on your TEAM that does. So, when someone like Joe starts spouting facts from said study then you are able to refute them or at least be able to provide a counterpoint.
> 
> ...


The way you put it this time, I agree with you. I can see the importance of knowing about bogus studies and having a response to them. I've shared a story with you regarding the work on Rocky Ridge, where I knew, before I got started, that there would be a handful of Joe's trying to derail the project. I carefully devised a strategy where I could accomplish my mission, even if they were to succeed in influencing the FS staff at the Peaks.

I wouldn't say I've been on the sidelines the last two years. The reroute of the AZ Trail as it passes through Walnut Canyon was conceived of by me, and I made first contact with the National Park Service staff to inquire about available funding. I scouted the new route and oversaw the whole project, at both ends, while working hard alongside of crews. I also recruited four dozen Americorp volunteers during their annual conference, to help complete the work, in addition to getting another volunteer group to put in a day of labor. But, since then, I have taken on a new role. I am now the Obi Wan Kenobi of trail builders...

"You can't win Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine "

It's not a sideline position, it's a stealth position. You go out on a 40 mile ride this weekend and you'll likely pass by hundreds of locations where I've made improvements to the trail you are on. If you followed the Mujahideen, as they took on the Russian military in Afghanistan, you witnessed the power of a small group of dedicated warriors. For some trail workers, it can be liberating not to attend meetings, read studies, wait and wait for land managers to get moving. Just find trouble spots and make the needed repairs. It's a part of what it takes to maintain all of our trails. If you'd like to be embeded into a crew of one or two such warriors, let me know.


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## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

The Prodigal Son said:


> . For some trail workers, it can be liberating not to attend meetings, read studies, wait and wait for land managers to get moving. Just find trouble spots and make the needed repairs.


Isn't that the same attitude that got Traidoc convicted and banned?


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

Casual Observer said:


> After doing a truly amazing night ride last night, followed by a couple tasty adult beverages, I had the opportunity to watch the 200 IM semifinals at a local pizzeria with some good friends. It was just another night in the life of CO. And I realize how blessed I am to not have a ball and chain holding me back from doing such thing.
> 
> Know why does this not surprise me?
> 
> ...


Talk is cheap. Maybe you remember Wasatch Walt. Another bloviater much like Skinny Tire and CO. He tallied over 20,000 posts in the political forum, before heading off to f-88 where he could be even more obnoxious. He added another 50,000 posts in that shark tank. I offered him the same challenge I'll offer you. Show me what you got. Bring your bike to Flagstaff and we'll go for a ride. Say 35 miles up and around the mountain. Bring Philbo and Easy E along with you. It will be just like an Olympic qualifier. Let's say the top two get in, and the other two have a self-imposed ban from MTBR for six months. If you tell me that you don't drive, like you told Trail Doc, I'll find you a ride. I'll come get you if I have to. Or, we can wait until next years Quadruple Bypass ride and meet there to settle things. I say you type more than you ride. Prove me wrong.


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## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

I might as well just ban myself now.


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

*You're no huckleberry*



Phillbo said:


> While riding a bike is a cool thing to enjoy... there are other things in life as well.... you goobers need to find a balance......:madman:


Why Phillbo, whatever do you mean? Maybe trail work's just not your game Phillbo. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!

I'd like to show you what a true renaissance man is, but I would be casting fine pearls before swine. Can't discuss great movie directors with you. Can't discuss the great music acts of the last 30 years. You'd be lost. Politics, religion, investment strategy? I'd be wasting my time. The fine wines of Germany? Are you kidding, you'd be challenged to find Germany on a map. Now, I suppose you could tell me a lot about recent guests on The Daily Show, or how many games you have for your Xbox. Or how 5' 10" and 220 pounds isn't fat, it's just big-boned. Is this your idea of balance?

Let me do this; I'll share a cooking tip with you. You want to make the perfect goat cheese omlet, try adding these two ingredients: green chilies and rotisserie chicken with the skin still on it. Heavy on the goat cheese.

I feel so completely balanced now.


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## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

I never did understand how Val Kilmer could not have won any awards for his roll as Doc Holiday.

Not a fan of goat cheese.


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## Casual Observer (Jan 12, 2004)

The Prodigal Son said:


> Talk is cheap. Maybe you remember Wasatch Walt. Another bloviater much like Skinny Tire and CO. He tallied over 20,000 posts in the political forum, before heading off to f-88 where he could be even more obnoxious. He added another 50,000 posts in that shark tank. I offered him the same challenge I'll offer you. Show me what you got. Bring your bike to Flagstaff and we'll go for a ride. Say 35 miles up and around the mountain. Bring Philbo and Easy E along with you. It will be just like an Olympic qualifier. Let's say the top two get in, and the other two have a self-imposed ban from MTBR for six months. If you tell me that you don't drive, like you told Trail Doc, I'll find you a ride. I'll come get you if I have to. Or, we can wait until next years Quadruple Bypass ride and meet there to settle things. I say you type more than you ride. Prove me wrong.


Just this a.m., while taking my daily ****, I said to myself, man I'm so glad I can poop on a regular basis. Do you know how good this makes one feel? I'm such a lucky man. And to top it off, I get to ride my bike after work today, and then celebrate National IPA day. Friday hangovers rock.

Sure, I'll come up to Flag (I love riding in Flag). Hell, I may even ride with you if it's a sincere offer. (I don't recall telling TD I don't drive, but then again, it's difficult keeping up with my 7,827 posts like you seem do to. I will tell you that I drive very, very little. But I have a car, and I can even carry bikes on it.)

But I'm curious what being first to the top of a mountain will prove? That you're a "better" mt biker than me? I have no doubts that most on here are more skilled, have more stamina, etc. But if you're questioning my passion, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Question: What's the most you've ridden in a 24 hour period on a mt bike? Care to make this interesting? Let's do something a bit more "extreme." How about you come down to Phoenix one of these weekend, and let's see who can log more hours in a 24-hour span. We're having a cold spell right now, so let's wait until it gets warm. Winner gets to spend the night with the other's wife.

(Sorry, I don't remember Walt. Do you know how much fun I'm having right now?)


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

mod note: moved from AZ forum.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

I like pie.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

The Prodigal Son said:


> Why Phillbo, whatever do you mean? Maybe trail work's just not your game Phillbo. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!
> 
> I'd like to show you what a true renaissance man is, but I would be casting fine pearls before swine. Can't discuss great movie directors with you. Can't discuss the great music acts of the last 30 years. You'd be lost. Politics, religion, investment strategy? I'd be wasting my time. The fine wines of Germany? Are you kidding, you'd be challenged to find Germany on a map. Now, I suppose you could tell me a lot about recent guests on The Daily Show, or how many games you have for your Xbox. Or how 5' 10" and 220 pounds isn't fat, it's just big-boned. Is this your idea of balance?
> 
> ...


 Did someone mention "BACON"?


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## traildoc (Mar 5, 2007)

rockman said:


> Pam Foti is a coauthor and is at NAU. Pamela E. Foti, Ph.D., Professor
> Her email [email protected]
> 
> I'm sure she'd be more than happy to discuss their findings and answer any questions. There's only so much you can squeeze into a journal article with a word/page limit. Sometimes the actual data and/or coordinates of repeat photo locations or monumented benchmarks are included in an appendix or can be requested from the authors.


rock:

I sent Pamela an email asking for a list of trails and pictures of the trail sections they evaluated for their study,.so far I have had no response. I wonder if she ever read the report IMBA has been sharing with its members.


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

Mrwhlr said:


> I wonder if cows and deer think about all this before they choose a path, you know, sustainability and all.
> 
> Cows rough in the best dirt bike trails in the areas around PHX. I think TD should be studying cattle......


Watch the aminals. They will find the best path usually. Follow the dear runs. Other aminals use the same path.

Here in my area the gov. spent some money on a study why is there more river ice than in the past. The river has widened by 30 feet or more in 30 years. That x 30 miles can add up to a larger river spring ice issue. Useless study on the obvious.


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## traildoc (Mar 5, 2007)

Mrwhlr said:


> I wonder if cows and deer think about all this before they choose a path, you know, sustainability and all.
> 
> Cows rough in the best dirt bike trails in the areas around PHX. I think TD should be studying cattle......


Mr:

If you haven't figured it out yet in my last life I was a cow.

When I looked up Dr. Pamela Foti's credentials on the internet I found out this lady is one big time recreational specialist. She has written tons of articles on recreation. She knows more about recreation then all of us combined viewing this thread. I wonder if she has ever worked on a trail building project? She says one of her hobbies is biking has anyone in Flag ever ridden with her?


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## Casual Observer (Jan 12, 2004)

traildoc said:


> Mr:
> 
> If you haven't figured it out yet in my last life I was a cow.
> 
> When I looked up Dr. Pamela Foti's credentials on the internet I found out this lady is one big time recreational specialist. She has written tons of articles on recreation. She knows more about recreation then all of us combined viewing this thread. I wonder if she has ever worked on a trail building project? She says one of her hobbies is biking has anyone in Flag ever ridden with her?


Why TD, why do you always belittle those you don't' agree with or understand?


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## traildoc (Mar 5, 2007)

Casual Observer said:


> Why TD, why do you always belittle those you don't' agree with or understand?


How am I belittling anyone? I am trying to get some pictures and trail names from a person who is in the top of her field in recreation. She is out hiking or riding (?) trails all over place and is authored in a trail study she did with several other professionals.

I am very interested in sustainable trail building projects and I am looking to see some pictures to be more informed about trail building techniques that improve sustainability.

Like TPS I am curious if the authors have a clue about the actual process. Guys like you sit back and criticize guys like TPS and me because we have been in the trenches building trails and we are curious if any studies have been done on the trail projects we have worked on, so we can get a feel for the work we have done in relation to other trails built in the last ten years.

I appreciate you criticizing my posts it makes me a better trail builder and that is all I really care about :thumbsup:


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## Casual Observer (Jan 12, 2004)

traildoc said:


> How am I belittling anyone?


Come on, really? You have to ask?



traildoc said:


> am very interested in sustainable trail building projects and I am looking to see some pictures to be more informed about trail building techniques that improve sustainability.


Have you tried contacted her directly, instead of posting on some obscure mt. biking forum? If you need her address, let me know.



traildoc said:


> TPS I am curious if the authors have a clue about the actual process.


I bet she does.


traildoc said:


> Guys like you sit back and criticize guys like TPS and me because we have been in the trenches building trails and we are curious if any studies have been done on the trail projects we have worked on, so we can get a feel for the work we have done in relation to other trails built in the last ten years.


Um, TPS admitted that he basically ignores what "official" folks have told him. Do you do the same?



traildoc said:


> I appreciate you criticizing my posts it makes me a better trail builder and that is all I really care about :thumbsup:


How is my post criticizing?


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## traildoc (Mar 5, 2007)

Casual Observer said:


> Come on, really? You have to ask?
> 
> Have you tried contacted her directly, instead of posting on some obscure mt. biking forum? If you need her address, let me know.
> 
> ...


CO:

Both TPS and I are still waiting to see what you have done to improve mountain biking for anyone. You point out our faults, but you do nothing to improve the sport. that I have ever heard of.

I did email Dr. Foti, but she is probably out recreating since I haven't heard back from her.


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## Casual Observer (Jan 12, 2004)

traildoc said:


> CO:
> 
> Both TPS and I are still waiting to see what you have done to improve mountain biking for anyone.


Don't hold your breath. I don't need to prove **** to you. You an keep asking all you want, but I'm not the type to suck his own dick, unlike some.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

traildoc said:


> we have been in the trenches building trails


Trail incision gone too far?!


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## traildoc (Mar 5, 2007)

Casual Observer said:


> Don't hold your breath. I don't need to prove **** to you. You an keep asking all you want, but I'm not the type to suck his own dick, unlike some.


Like I said CO, I don't know of anything that you have done to provide a better user experience for the mountain bike masses. I may boast about building new trails and doing trail enhancements as a volunteer for the FS to provide more trails for the trail running, hiking and mountain bike community, but I am not sure why that should be such a BIG issue for you? My dysfunction has allowed me to meet a lot of new friends who I have had some great rides and meals with.

If your life is working well for you keep doing what you are doing, I certainly don't plan on making any changes.

TD


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## Casual Observer (Jan 12, 2004)

traildoc said:


> Like I said CO, I don't know of anything that you have done to provide a better user experience for the mountain bike masses. I may boast about building new trails and doing trail enhancements as a volunteer for the FS to provide more trails for the trail running, hiking and mountain bike community, but I am not sure why that should be such a BIG issue for you? My dysfunction has allowed me to meet a lot of new friends who I have had some great rides and meals with.
> 
> If your life is working well for you keep doing what you are doing, I certainly don't plan on making any changes.
> 
> TD


I wasn't aware I needed permission.

Curious, if you're doing such a good thing, why do you think you got the ban? Do you honestly think it was for one incident? Please answer this sincerely.


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## traildoc (Mar 5, 2007)

Casual Observer said:


> I wasn't aware I needed permission.
> 
> Curious, if you're doing such a good thing, why do you think you got the ban? Do you honestly think it was for one incident? Please answer this sincerely.


CO:

My being banned from the Northern Arizona Forest for six months is a very complex subject. I was the most high profile volunteer FS worker who thought I had implied consent to do trail enhancements and trail maintenance, but I was not the number one FS volunteer who had done many more enhancements and maintenance projects than I had ever done. That person is dating the number two FS person in charge of maintenance and new construction.

I was never questioned about any of his FS volunteer projects but I was only questioned about my FS volunteer projects, so obviously he was being protected. He had a broader volunteer agreement due to his relationship with the FS worker, so he was protected.

Even though the FS trail work I did was of a superior quality I failed to get the official OK to do the work because I thought I had implied consent from the other similar projects I did.

Several times I did not agree with some of the work that was done by the CREC crews on multi-use trails and when I expressed my feeling the FS took offense to me not being happy with the work that was done. What is interesting is the number one volunteer also thought the work was done incorrectly, but he obviously would not say anything to the FS because his girl friend was happy with the work and wanted to protect the feelings of the CREC crew.

I also questioned the elbows out brushing method that is only used in Sedona, and the FS was real unhappy about me taking that method to a national forum to get the input of other trail builders. When I showed the FS that the equestrians went out on the newly adopted Chuck Wagon trail and cut back the trees because the brush was too close for their use they pretended that it never happened. The poor trees looked like Jack the Ripper had attacked them.

Anyway the FS needed to show they were upset with the mountain biking community, so I was the easy target. Hopefully it worked and they are happy with the result.

I was recently asked if I would consider working on a difficult maintenance project when I got back to town in December. I found that kind of interesting.


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

Casual Observer said:


> Don't hold your breath. I don't need to prove **** to you. You an keep asking all you want, but I'm not the type to suck his own dick, unlike some.


It doesn't matter what the venue is, professional bike racing, professional basketball, baseball, football, or even in the world of professional politics, there will always be ne'er-do-wells shouting comments from the peanut gallery. MTBR graciously allows such people to criticize those doing the hard work of providing new exciting trails for all to enjoy.



> *ne'er-do-well
> [nair-doo-wel]
> 
> an idle, worthless person; a person who is ineffectual, unsuccessful, or completely lacking in merit; good-for-nothing.*


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## Casual Observer (Jan 12, 2004)

The Prodigal Son said:


> It doesn't matter what the venue is, professional bike racing, professional basketball, baseball, football, or even in the world of professional politics, there will always be ne'er-do-wells shouting comments from the peanut gallery. MTBR graciously allows such people to criticize those doing the hard work of providing new exciting trails for all to enjoy.


You coming down to ride some of those trails here in Phoenix you had absolutely nothing to do with for our "who can ride the most miles in 24 hours in 110 degrees" challenge? Just let know when and I'll be sure to lube my chain.


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## Casual Observer (Jan 12, 2004)

traildoc said:


> CO:
> 
> My being banned from the Northern Arizona Forest for six months is a very complex subject. I was the most high profile volunteer FS worker who thought I had implied consent to do trail enhancements and trail maintenance, but I was not the number one FS volunteer who had done many more enhancements and maintenance projects than I had ever done. That person is dating the number two FS person in charge of maintenance and new construction.
> 
> ...


I'd venture to say there is a lot of validity to this. Do you think your public criticism of them was the straw the broke the camel's back?

What amazes me is that others have been able to build some amazing trails in this state without your assistance, since based on many of the posts I've seen of yours, you're the only one who knows how to build and maintain trails.


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## traildoc (Mar 5, 2007)

Casual Observer said:


> I'd venture to say there is a lot of validity to this. Do you think your public criticism of them was the straw the broke the camel's back?
> 
> What amazes me is that others have been able to build some amazing trails in this state without your assistance, since based on many of the posts I've seen of yours, you're the only one who knows how to build and maintain trails.


CO:

Could you please list the amazing trails you are talking about that others have made or as usual you don't know what you are talking about.? Please list the trails you are refering to, and what it cost to build them. The Sedona trail system that has accounted for all the world class recognition came from NO tax payer dollars being spent.

I spoke to the lead builder of the new Mills Peak trail in Gray Eagle, CA and he said the trail cost $5 per foot to build, and by the end of the project cost about $1,000,000. It is truly a great trail and a testament to a very determined user group to get it built in very rugged terrain.

The fact that Sedona has a great trail system w/o out a lot tax payer funding is also an amazing accomplishment.

Have you joined IMBA yet? That would be one way you could support mountain biking.

TD


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## Casual Observer (Jan 12, 2004)

traildoc said:


> CO:
> 
> Could you please list the amazing trails you are talking about that others have made or as usual you don't know what you are talking about.? Please list the trails you are refering to, and what it cost to build them. The Sedona trail system that has accounted for all the world class recognition came from NO tax payer dollars being spent.
> 
> ...


I'll make it easy for you. Take every trail you've built, helped build, maintain, or helped maintain, and then subtract that from *all* the trails that are open or used my mt bikers, and you have your answer.

I am NOT sharing any of my personal information with you, including what groups I am or am not part of. Got it? So, quit wasting bandwidth.

(I'm not falling for it TD. We all know you're passionate for what you do. Despite what you think, we're not out to get you.)


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## traildoc (Mar 5, 2007)

Casual Observer said:


> I'll make it easy for you. Take every trail you've built, helped build, maintain, or helped maintain, and then subtract that from *all* the trails that are open or used my mt bikers, and you have your answer.
> 
> I am NOT sharing any of my personal information with you, including what groups I am or am not part of. Got it? So, quit wasting bandwidth.
> 
> (I'm not falling for it TD. We all know you're passionate for what you do. Despite what you think, we're not out to get you.)


CO:

You need to run for political office, you definitely have what it takes to dodge the questions. This isn't about me and what I have worked on this is about a group of passionate hard working individuals who had a dream and just happened to be living in the same area to make a great trail system.

I personally haven't joined IMBA, instead I have donated my sweat equity for building new FS trails and getting others adopted. Until the new Sedona club gets their goals formalized I am on the sidelines. You don't seem to either donate money or do any work which seems kind of selfish to me for a guy who is out riding all the time.

TD


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## Casual Observer (Jan 12, 2004)

traildoc said:


> You don't seem to either donate money or do any work which seems kind of selfish to me for a guy who is out riding all the time.
> 
> TD


Hhhmm, interesting comment. So, care to share with me how you've come to this conclusion?


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