# MTB advocacy groups, their own worst enemy?



## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Do trail advocacy groups create their own struggles while trying to get trails/networks legally built by drawing attention to existing unsanctioned trails that had been ridden/enjoyed mostly unnoticed by land managers/owners for years/decades prior?

What say you?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Do trail advocacy groups create their own struggles while trying to get trails/networks legally built by drawing attention to existing unsanctioned trails that had been ridden/enjoyed mostly unnoticed by land managers/owners for years/decades prior?
> 
> What say you?


The struggle you espouse is caused by illegal trials and their builders, not by advocacy groups. Odd way to twist the responsibility if you ask me.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> The struggle you espouse is caused by illegal trials and their builders, not by advocacy groups. Odd way to twist the responsibility if you ask me.


But the "illegal" trails and their builders had never been an issue for land managers/owners.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

HacksawReynolds said:


> But the "illegal" trails and their builders had never been an issue for land managers/owners.


Bullshit. Possibly in your myopic view but it has been an issue for a very long time in many places outside of your locale. Don't equate conditions in your small slice of the world to what is going on in the rest of the world.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Butthurt. it has been an issue for a very long time in many places.


So how did the issue come about?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

HacksawReynolds said:


> So how did the issue come about?


Not by using your twisted logic. Go troll Pinkbike.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Not by using your twisted logic. Go troll Pinkbike.


Ha you don't have an answer....


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## R38 (Nov 9, 2015)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Do trail advocacy groups create their own struggles while trying to get trails/networks legally built by drawing attention to existing unsanctioned trails that had been ridden/enjoyed mostly unnoticed by land managers/owners for years/decades prior?
> 
> What say you?


No, Trail Advocacy Groups do not create their own struggles. Their actions are the result of an issue that has arisen in a given trail network (Areas being shut down, developed, trail conflicts).


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

R38 said:


> No, Trail Advocacy Groups do not create their own struggles. Their actions are the result of an issue that has arisen in a given trail network (Areas being shut down, developed, trail conflicts).


Would you say that in your area that trail advocacy group(s) only focus on areas where conflicts already occur?

What about an area that has no current user conflicts, but an advocacy group recognizes the area as a potential great opportunity for a local or regional riding "destination" and sees it as an opportunity to "grow" the sport in that area?


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

"Self Appointed Experts bring change without improvement."
-Art Goodrich

When my passion for trail building got "Clubbed", we were told in no uncertain terms we couldn't build what we wanted to ride anymore and if we wanted to help with trail work it was going to be bench cut "Easy Trail" because that's what the club needed to have a marketable product, and our old tech trails were basically not ride-able for marginally in shape weekend warriors.

The club has been taken over by the leisure-lifestyle types who float around town and e mail about 2000 times a week. A few of the old crew have tried to get back into the loop but holding down real jobs and a real life means it's impossible to keep up with all the inter-board banter and insane amount of e mail and social media banter they generate.

Control of the resource has been arrested by people who are more into sales and marketing, and self-promotion than they are into true quality trails, protection of the resource, or representing what the local community wants.

So...yes.

MTB in that town is now used as an amenity to sell million dollar condos at the resort up the road. They even have a you tube channel, and all the old trail names can be found in the names of restaurants, sandwiches, and local beers as if naming a Beer after Zog's is going to impart some street cred on the carpetbaggers who blew into town after the SMBC blew the scene up for tourists. 
This is what failure looks like.





This is what built the scene... 





I think local groups and clubs run on 100 percent volunteer energy are great. Once the model get's blown up to state-level it looses touch.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

DaveVt said:


> "Self Appointed Experts bring change without improvement."
> -Art Goodrich
> 
> When my passion for trail building got "Clubbed", we were told in no uncertain terms we couldn't build what we wanted to ride anymore and if we wanted to help with trail work it was going to be bench cut "Easy Trail" because that's what the club needed to have a marketable product, and our old tech trails were basically not ride-able for marginally in shape weekend warriors.
> ...


Great contribution DaveVt!

VMBA........ugh.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Great contribution DaveVt!
> 
> VMBA........ugh.


Same old rant.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

DaveVt said:


> This is what failure looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The music in each was equally awful. I would choose to ride the trails in what you call the failure. I have vertigo and could never ride up on those elevated boardwalks on the trails that built the scene.

I would welcome both set of trails and both set of riders.

I attended a local mountain bike advocacy meeting earlier this week. The topic was whether to stay a part of IMBA or not. One comment was that they make most of their money off of a race they run, so there isn't even a need for an organized advocacy group or it's 160 members. I'm not sure what they are advocating. There are zero plans to get more trails built for riders of any skill level. I announced I was leaving the group and going back to living in the shadows with people who helped build the scene. Sadly, I lost several friends by doing what I did.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

HacksawReynolds said:


> But the "illegal" trails and their builders had never been an issue for land managers/owners.


 Huh? Huge issues here in MA on some properties. Please keep your nonsense in ME.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Do trail advocacy groups create their own struggles while trying to get trails/networks legally built by drawing attention to existing unsanctioned trails that had been ridden/enjoyed mostly unnoticed by land managers/owners for years/decades prior?
> 
> What say you?


 As a legit trail builder, nothing pisses me off more than trying to fix some else's poorly built, braided crap than spending our time creating great, legal, LM approved singletrack. Here in MA, everything gets noticed. At least in the eastern section, lots of users, not huge amounts of land. The "struggle " is with all the illegal work, some areas more than others. Huge time suck. Just think about all the good work that could be done if everyone was on the same page. Really.


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## R38 (Nov 9, 2015)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Would you say that in your area that trail advocacy group(s) only focus on areas where conflicts already occur?
> 
> What about an area that has no current user conflicts, but an advocacy group recognizes the area as a potential great opportunity for a local or regional riding "destination" and sees it as an opportunity to "grow" the sport in that area?


Yes, in San Diego they focus on areas where conflict already occurs whether it be an inadequate trail network, an area at risk of being shut down, or an area that is having user conflicts.

In San Diego, there are no largely used illegal trail networks that I am aware of where there is no Land Manager present.

While there are illegal trail networks that people ride regularly around the US: If no one advocates for them they could be shut down at any time.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

HacksawReynolds said:


> So how did the issue come about?


STRAVA. if you feel the need to use it, also learn when to turn it off and enjoy the trail.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

R38 said:


> In San Diego, there are no largely used illegal trail networks that I am aware of where there is no Land Manager present.


Define "present".....

In Calavera there is no regular presence by the land managers. Fish n Game shows up once a year and mows down a few jumps and then go into hiding.

There are a number of "secret" trails in San Marcos and Escondido that have no enforcement.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> Define "present".....
> 
> In Calavera there is no regular presence by the land managers. Fish n Game shows up once a year and mows down a few jumps and then go into hiding.
> 
> There are a number of "secret" trails that have no enforcement.


I adjusted your reply a bit to keep the down low, low. Please consider doing the same sir.

SDMBA is holding a North County meeting soon and I would encourage folks to attend if possible


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## R38 (Nov 9, 2015)

Yes, in Calaveras & at Carlsbad Highlands, there are present Land Managers.Around the Lake, they have CNLM & a Ranger with the City of Carlsbad that patrols the area:

https://cnlm.org/portfolio_page/calavera-hills/

At Carlsbad Highlands (South of Calavera) they have the California Department of Fish and Wildlife. Is CDFW around 24/7? No. But their activity in the area is enough to gain the notice of certain people:
http://forums.mtbr.com/california-s...ging-trails-part-closure-process-1060133.html
https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2018/jan/23/stringers-mountain-bikers-dont-want-illegal-trails/

As for Escondido/San Marcos, it looks like the big secret is out:

https://escondidocreek.org/news/illegal-trail-cuts-gnatcatcher-habitat/


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

HacksawReynolds said:


> What say you?


Not around here.

Unsanctioned trails in my backyard exist but there's very limited evidence of going unnoticed by land managers and owners. Maybe for a year, and then the closure goes wide.

Land managers around here work and frequently also recreate in the forest. They pay attention to what others are doing. They are aware of Strava (the heat map data alone shows all kinds of things) and Open Cycle Map.

The forests are active research and/or harvest sites. Sometimes the unauthorized trails get closed. Most of the time that's due to someone building janky wooden features. More often they are logged over and destroyed. Authorized trails that get damaged by harvest activities are restored. Trees fall in the forest and it's rare to see deadfall cut out on unauthorized trails here, while the authorized ones are reopened regularly.

I'm not sure what to make of the "struggles" part. It seems like all upside to me around here.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Great contribution DaveVt!


People who disagree with you get bullied, people who agree get pats on the back. Great opportunity for discussion here.

We all know how you feel, why are you wasting your time?


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

HacksawReynolds said:


> What about an area that has no current user conflicts, but an advocacy group recognizes the area as a potential great opportunity for a local or regional riding "destination" and sees it as an opportunity to "grow" the sport in that area?


I'd say that's outside the scope of an advocacy group. Turning an area into a destination increases the risk of user conflicts when you have more riders who don't know how to play by local rules and no vested reason to do so.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Boris Badenov said:


> The music in each was equally awful. I would choose to ride the trails in what you call the failure. I have vertigo and could never ride up on those elevated boardwalks on the trails that built the scene.
> 
> I would welcome both set of trails and both set of riders.
> 
> I attended a local mountain bike advocacy meeting earlier this week. The topic was whether to stay a part of IMBA or not. One comment was that they make most of their money off of a race they run, so there isn't even a need for an organized advocacy group or it's 160 members. I'm not sure what they are advocating. There are zero plans to get more trails built for riders of any skill level. I announced I was leaving the group and going back to living in the shadows with people who helped build the scene. Sadly, I lost several friends by doing what I did.


Well I guess they weren't friends worth keeping. Good on you for following your heart.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> Define "present".....
> 
> In Calavera there is no regular presence by the land managers. Fish n Game shows up once a year and mows down a few jumps and then go into hiding.
> 
> There are a number of "secret" trails in San Marcos and Escondido that have no enforcement.


Good stuff, thank you for contributing to this thread.?


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Dirtrider127 said:


> STRAVA. if you feel the need to use it, also learn when to turn it off and enjoy the trail.


Ugh. Friggin STRAVA and heat map. Don't get me started on that. Again.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

leeboh said:


> As a legit trail builder, nothing pisses me off more than trying to fix some else's poorly built, braided crap than spending our time creating great, legal, LM approved singletrack. Here in MA, everything gets noticed. At least in the eastern section, lots of users, not huge amounts of land. The "struggle " is with all the illegal work, some areas more than others. Huge time suck. Just think about all the good work that could be done if everyone was on the same page. Really.


The Cape and Plymouth areas are east and all's good in the hood in those areas. No struggles. No advocacy needed.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Do trail advocacy groups create their own struggles while trying to get trails/networks legally built by drawing attention to existing unsanctioned trails that had been ridden/enjoyed mostly unnoticed by land managers/owners for years/decades prior?
> 
> What say you?


In my neck of the woods we haven't created any additional "struggles" because of bike advocacy. Mainly we raise money, conduct volunteer events for maintenance, and advocate for new trails. We advocate for adoption of unsanctioned trails if they make sense. No trails have been closed due to our actions, nor do we bring attention to them. We all ride them of course which isn't illegal.

There is, however, a perception that basic maintenance on an eroded system trail is dumbing down the technicality. That's probably the biggest struggle is getting folks to understand that the trail is technical but because of poor alignment now a 2' ditch full of bowling balls. Many don't know any better because they have no clue regarding sustainable trail building techniques. Simple things like grade reversals but the only target is the advocacy group or land manager. They've never had technical trails built for them and are getting their fix so to speak where they can find it. Most only care about the here and now and are only mindful of their trail experience today. They don't care what the trail might look like 10 years from now. Our trails wouldn't get any maintenance if there wasn't an advocacy group in place. But our own worst enemy? Hardly.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

R38 said:


> Yes, in Calaveras & at Carlsbad Highlands, there are present Land Managers.Around the Lake, they have CNLM & a Ranger with the City of Carlsbad that patrols the area:
> 
> https://cnlm.org/portfolio_page/calavera-hills/
> 
> ...


Pick axes and shovels. No Bueno.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

rockman said:


> In my neck of the woods we haven't created any additional "struggles" because of bike advocacy. Mainly we raise money, conduct volunteer events for maintenance, and advocate for new trails. We advocate for adoption of unsanctioned trails if they make sense. No trails have been closed due to our actions, nor do we bring attention to them. We all ride them of course which isn't illegal.
> 
> There is, however, a perception that basic maintenance on an eroded system trail is dumbing down the technicality. That's probably the biggest struggle is getting folks to understand that the trail is technical but because of poor alignment now a 2' ditch full of bowling balls. Many don't know any better because they have no clue regarding sustainable trail building techniques. Simple things like grade reversals but the only target is the advocacy group or land manager. They've never had technical trails built for them and are getting their fix so to speak where they can find it. Most only care about the here and now and are only mindful of their trail experience today. They don't care what the trail might look like 10 years from now. Our trails wouldn't get any maintenance if there wasn't an advocacy group in place. But our own worst enemy? Hardly.


Thanx Rock good stuff. It amazes me that folks won't take it upon themselves to maintain trails that they frequent even if an advocacy group wasn't in place. Far too many MTB'rs are just takers. Only ride. No maintenance or cleanup.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Thanx Rock good stuff. It amazes me that folks won't take it upon themselves to maintain trails that they frequent even if an advocacy group wasn't in place. Far too many MTB'rs are just takers. Only ride. No maintenance or cleanup.


Quite true. They certainly have strong opinions on what the trails should look like. Everyone should have a voice but you need to show up to make that voice heard. We have bike shops that will sponsor an event yet not send one single person from the LBS shows up to the event and then they complain about the work completed. On the other hand, the social trails in some cases have a particular trail steward so they are getting more love than the system trails. Especially if they are in owl habitat. We can't even go in there during breeding season and have to wait until Sept as the riding season is closing to address maintenance concerns. But generally the answer to your OP question is no.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

rockman said:


> We have bike shops that will sponsor an event yet not send one single person from the LBS shows up to the event and then they complain about the work completed.


That's really messed up.



> On the other hand, the social trails in some cases have a particular trail steward so they are getting more love than the system trails.


No surprise there. You should see the ongoing social trail care work in my area. Talk about passion and attention to detail. There are at least 3 advocacy groups that all focus their attention to networks about an hour from me in different directions so there's a huge area with nothing as far as organized advocacy goes. There used to be an advocacy group right in my local zone about 20 years ago. A NEMBA chapter. The group formed so that they could try to legitimize what was already present (rogue) in a certain area, and also work towards getting legal sanctioned trails created. Well things didn't work out so well and the chapter folded after a few years due not being able to get anything approved and also because the rogue trails which had been fine and dandy before had now been highlighted in their efforts and now are watched pretty carefully. We continue to ride the many miles of rogue trail out there as its amazing terrain, but you better not even pick up a stick cuz big brother is watching.

So in my area the answer to my OP would be a YES.

Lots and lots of woods around tho so no biggie.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

HacksawReynolds said:


> That's really messed up.
> 
> No surprise there. You should see the ongoing social trail care work in my area. Talk about passion and attention to detail. There are at least 3 advocacy groups that all focus their attention to networks about an hour from me in different directions so there's a huge area with nothing as far as organized advocacy goes. There used to be an advocacy group right in my local zone about 20 years ago. A NEMBA chapter. The group formed so that they could try to legitimize what was already present (rogue) in a certain area, and also work towards getting legal sanctioned trails created. Well things didn't work out so well and the chapter folded after a few years due not being able to get anything approved and also because the rogue trails which had been fine and dandy before had now been highlighted in their efforts and now are watched pretty carefully. We continue to ride the many miles of rogue trail out there as its amazing terrain, but you better not even pick up a stick cuz big brother is watching.
> 
> ...


My guess is that you are in the minority but interested in hearing others chime in. However, if the land manager decided to eradicate and naturalize the social trails the only partner at the table is a bike advocacy organization to argue for their continued existence and adoption. Otherwise, the local riders have no voice or option. How would you convince the land manager to keep the trails? At least in the case of the USFS they are not going to meet with individuals. Where does that leave the biking community? Writing editorials to the newspaper but that usually just comes off as entitled whining and doesn't get much traction for public support or help from other user groups.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

rockman said:


> My guess is that you are in the minority but interested in hearing others chime in. However, if the land manager decided to eradicate and naturalize the social trails the only partner at the table is a bike advocacy organization to argue for their continued existence and adoption. Otherwise, the local riders have no voice or option. How would you convince the land manager to keep the trails? At least in the case of the USFS they are not going to meet with individuals. Where does that leave the biking community? Writing editorials to the newspaper but that usually just comes off as entitled whining and doesn't get much traction for public support or help from other user groups.


In this particular area there isn't a snowballs chance in hell convincing the land manager no matter who or what organization tries to do the convincing. Like I said, those amazing rogue trails went largely unnoticed till the advocacy group went in with the right intentions and everything came tumbling down.

Some years later some of the same crew helped create trail for a new conservation area then when the network was completed the land manager told the crew that they couldn't ride MTB's there. Talk about a kick in the nuts haha. Easier to just go it alone quietly around here. Stoked to scope out new future mileage as soon as existing trails are cleaned up and I get ahead of my winter 2021 firewood supply. One thing there's no shortage of around here is free firewood laying around.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

I spent near a whole month of May 1995 between lot 5 at whistler and the then one horse town of Squamish. Love it out there, but could never live there. WAY too much of a scene. Glad you got to spend a bunch of time there!


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Switchblade2 said:


> WORCA is probably the most successful advocacy club in the WHOLE WORLD. Whenever I think of a landmanager who is resistant to having a successful mountain bike community, I think back to how WORCA was so successful. Same world just a different mindset.


I'm not sure that WORCA is the most successful in the world. Maybe.

What is striking is that they build really awesome trails that aren't watered down sidewalks in one the most popular bike destinations anywhere. Their creations are true masterpieces.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

rockman said:


> My guess is that you are in the minority but interested in hearing others chime in. However, if the land manager decided to eradicate and naturalize the social trails the only partner at the table is a bike advocacy organization to argue for their continued existence and adoption. Otherwise, the local riders have no voice or option. How would you convince the land manager to keep the trails? At least in the case of the USFS they are not going to meet with individuals. Where does that leave the biking community? Writing editorials to the newspaper but that usually just comes off as entitled whining and doesn't get much traction for public support or help from other user groups.


Wait a minute there, did you bump your head and lose your memory? When did FBO meet with the FS and advocate to preserve Danzo or any other social or rogue trail? I did and I am an individual. Yes, they met with an individual. Also there is a voice and another option. When the FS goes out and naturalizes a rogue trail, you can go out and un-naturalize that trail and keep riding it. You know very well that happens. It happened in Fort Valley and it happened on Danzo. Sean paid a conservation corps crew to cover up Danzo and close it down. Then, two riders went out and uncovered the trail. I spoke to one of them about it. The FS then gave up and decided to leave the trail open and accessible to all users.

And in regard to going to the local newspaper, it also worked for Friends Of Walnut Canyon. They attacked the FS for being poor land managers in the Flagstaff Daily Sun and suggested the FS turn land over to the National Park Service to manage. What was the result? Instead of the Fs being angry at the hiking club, they immediately met with them and ask them what the FS could do for them. Then the FS dropped a couple projects and began working on Campbell Mesa Loop Trail system, in order to win back the approval of Friends of Walnut Canyon.

You know all of these things already. You were there when they happened. I spoke directly to the FS staff involved as they happened. It didn't make sense to me. The take away was that just because the FS closes a trail by covering it up, doesn't mean they have the stomach to go another round or two with determined users who uncover the trail and begin riding it again.

You and I both know that Moto trail should have been closed down in 1996, but after ignoring it for years, the FS finally decided to just adopt it and even improve and expand it. They rewarded the rogue builders and they admit that is what they did. It was quite surprising and yet quite pleasing to all of us riders, right?


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Boris Badenov said:


> Wait a minute there, did you bump your head and lose your memory? When did FBO meet with the FS and advocate to preserve Danzo or any other social or rogue trail? I did and I am an individual. Yes, they met with an individual. Also there is a voice and another option. When the FS goes out and naturalizes a rogue trail, you can go out and un-naturalize that trail and keep riding it. You know very well that happens. It happened in Fort Valley and it happened on Danzo. Sean paid a conservation corps crew to cover up Danzo and close it down. Then, two riders went out and uncovered the trail. I spoke to one of them about it. The FS then gave up and decided to leave the trail open and accessible to all users.
> 
> And in regard to going to the local newspaper, it also worked for Friends Of Walnut Canyon. They attacked the FS for being poor land managers in the Flagstaff Daily Sun and suggested the FS turn land over to the National Park Service to manage. What was the result? Instead of the Fs being angry at the hiking club, they immediately met with them and ask them what the FS could do for them. Then the FS dropped a couple projects and began working on Campbell Mesa Loop Trail system, in order to win back the approval of Friends of Walnut Canyon.
> 
> ...


Just my opinion Boris but despite what you think Danzo has not been adopted and if the trail plan for the area ever happens, it will likely be naturalized. But by all means go back and open it back up. I have no knowledge of your meeting with the FS but weren't you an employee at the time? Or, at least a recent employee and you know all the folks on the recreation staff. Either way, I guess there are two options. Go back and rebuild a closed trail or have an organization advocate for it's continued existence. And yes, FBO has indeed met with the FS (multiple times) and argued for adoption of social trails. In particular those left out of the Mt Elden Dry Lake Hills proposal (ie., Jedi, Red Onion, and Ginger).

If your solo and you don't have connections (like you once did) what are your options? Legal ones that is. My point is that it's much better to have a seat at the table. And with regard to the OP's question, I totally disagree that mtb advocacy organizations are their own worst enemy. Except maybe IMBA but I'm referring to local organizations.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

Rockman, I think I agree with you. It is better to have an advocacy group fighting for more trail access, especially if they know what they are doing and are passionate and not willing to quickly compromise. I the above instance, I didn't argue Danzo was adopted, but it has been essentially adopted. I argued the FS knowingly and willingly allowed a rogue trail to continue to be ridden and hoked and used by everyone, despite paying to have it covered and closed. All it took was two intrepid trail users to come along and refuse to be denied the use of a trail they and others were enjoying. I'm guessing it was because the FS knew that their long-term goal of creating another section of Loop Trail was not going to happen anytime soon. It has now been over a decade since it was proposed. 

How many of those rogue trails FBO (Flagstaff Biking Organization) argued for adopting were then adopted? 

I do not totally disagree with the OP. If an advocacy group is filled with people who do not look at all options, they are much more likely to do as he mention they did near him and sacrifice well liked rogue trails in order to gain better acceptance with land managers. My recent experience with an advocacy group is similar and led to me walking out. 

Here is the first analogy that came to mind, mostly because I love watching the history channel.

During WWII, the fighting in the Pacific was going badly. The Japanese were fighting to the death and causing many U.S. casualties. They forced the U.S. to reevaluate their strategy. Curtis LeMay and Robert McNamara proposed going rogue in order to win. Many others argued that would be unwise and violate the laws of war. They even concluded if the U.S. lost the war, those who advocated for this new strategy would be charged as war criminals. The decision was made to go forward with the strategy of killing as many civilians as possible, including women and children, by bombing the 50 largest cities in Japan, including the use of incendiary bombs to cause more damage. It was a huge gamble that probably made it easier to go the next step and drop nuclear bombs to end the war. 

You would argue, and you would be correct, that today, this sort of rogue policy would never be acceptable. Not in the U.S. It seems to be acceptable in Syria and in the world of terrorist organizations, and it may be successful for them, but it is something most countries would not consider. 

My feeling is that you are correct in that rogue trail building has been abandoned by most riders and it is much more risky to accomplish successfully. What I see now is mostly specific small acts of rogue trail work. Not trails, but short connectors or reroutes or braids. If you or I knew of some new full length rogue trails, we would probably not be wise to discuss them here, right?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

These threads make me realize how fortunate I am to live in an area where I don't have to worry or think about any of this bs because it would really be a buzzkill, the greatest thing about cycling for me is it's carefree nature.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Switchblade2 said:


> I use to spend two months of my summer nights in Whistler parking lot FIVE with a bunch of other dirtbags. During my stay (pre 2008) in Whistler I would ride the Bike Park and do the weekly WORCA Toonie Rides which were then called Loonie rides. The weekly rides at that time consisted of about 200 riders.
> 
> At the time there was a membership of about 600 riders. After the rides a local restaurant would provide a burger and beer for the $2 entry fee. At the end of the season there was a FREE party at the Chateau Whistler were everyone dressed up in a costume.
> 
> ...


 Hmmm, the whole world? Done your research or just guessing. North Shore Nemba member here. 27 chapters, 5,000 plus member covering most of New England. ( VT for the most part does their own thing) 30 years, 1,000's of rides and trail work hours each year, add in some festivals, and a huge number of events. I think you'll find lots of pockets of advocacy everywhere in the US.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

leeboh said:


> Hmmm, the whole world? Done your research or just guessing. North Shore Nemba member here. 27 chapters, 5,000 plus member covering most of New England. ( VT for the most part does their own thing) 30 years, 1,000's of rides and trail work hours each year, add in some festivals, and a huge number of events. I think you'll find lots of pockets of advocacy everywhere in the US.


Exactly, I would also go further and say that can be measured outside of membership and number of rides put on.

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## mbmtb (Nov 28, 2013)

Plus some groups are really effective and really small. Lots of trail systems have their own advocacy group which keep, say, 5-20 miles of trails maintained and opened to bikes. Arguing over member size isn't the key piece.

To the orginal discussion: yes it's a real concern I've seen! Around here the land manager knows people use/create/maintain trails, though not all the details. They consider this all to be non-compliant usage. The question is... as they formally allow bikes on some trails, is it a loss that they'll put up more 'no bikes' signs or more enforcing rangers on the other trails? Hard to tell.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

HacksawReynolds said:


> But the "illegal" trails and their builders had never been an issue for land managers/owners.


Here's why it's potentially an issue when it comes to public land. We just did a "stakeholder analysis" as part of the National Park Services "River, Trails, and Conservation Program" and I was astounded at how many groups and organizations are interested in trails, what happens on them, etc. Hence my point about having a voice at the table. Not all of these groups like bikes. Better to work with them in a shared partnership approach.

American Conservaton Experience
Ancestral Lands Program
Arizona Bowhunters
Arizona Conservation Corps
Arizona High School Cycling League
Arizona Office of Tourism
Arizona Snowbowl Ski Area
Arizona State Land Department
Arizona State Parks and Trails
Arizona Trail Association
Arizona Wilderness Coalition
Camp Colton
Center for Biological Diversity
Cinder Hills Rough Riders
City of Flagstaff
City of Flagstaff Open Space Commission
Coconino County
Coconino County Parks and Recreation
Coconino Horsemen's Alliance
Coconino National Forest, Flagstaff RD
Coconino Search and Rescue
Coconino Trail Riders
Flagstaff Climbing
Flagstaff Nordic Center
Friends of Flagstaff's Future
Friends of Northern Arizona Forest
Friends of Rio de Flag
Grand Canyon Trust
Great Old Broads for Wilderness
Greater Flagstaff Chamber of Commerce
Habitat Harmony - Conservation Study Forum
Intertribal Advisory Council
NAIPTA
National Off-Highway Vehicle Conservation Council
National Park Conservation Association
National Park Service Flagstaff Area Monuments
Native Americans for Community Action
NAU Native Cultural Center
NAU Outdoors
Northern Arizona Trail Runners Association (NATRA)
Northland Motor Sports
Recreation Resource Management
Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
Sierra Club
The Nature Conservancy


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

I wonder how much red tape WORCA has to deal with in Whistler? I mean, they established probably the most popular MTB trail system on the planet and proven to the locals how important MTB'ing is/can be to the local economy. Do you think they get a pass or at least a shortcut in the approval process when dealing with issues for building a new trail?

Down in the US, the organization that I'm familiar with that seems to get the most done, all while having to deal with "the process" is COPMOBA in Grand Junction/Fruita. I was so impressed by their group that I joined up even though I live in San Diego.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

leeboh said:


> Hmmm, the whole world? Done your research or just guessing. North Shore Nemba member here. 27 chapters, 5,000 plus member covering most of New England. ( VT for the most part does their own thing) 30 years, 1,000's of rides and trail work hours each year, add in some festivals, and a huge number of events. I think you'll find lots of pockets of advocacy everywhere in the US.


And isn't it just downright weird that NEMBA has nothing to do with VT yet NEMBA holds its huge annual bike fest at Kingdom trails.....in VT. Crazy.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

How about successful-rogue-builders-become-successful-advocacy-groups, because that's also a reality, in some cases. You do what works at the time. 

Good on you if you can build successful trails!

It ain't easy.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

bsieb said:


> How about successful-rogue-builders-become-successful-advocacy-groups, because that's also a reality, in some cases. You do what works at the time.
> 
> Good on you if you can build successful trails!
> 
> It ain't easy.


Many rogue trail work groups have become advocacy groups, or at least rogue individuals have helped form them. Some of our NEMBA chapters started out this way in the early/mid 90's.

But for most of us I would think, the point of going the rogue route is because you don't want to deal with any of the advocacy noise and process. Just go out and do your thing quietly and get sh1t done quickly and efficiently.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

bsieb said:


> How about successful-rogue-builders-become-successful-advocacy-groups, because that's also a reality, in some cases.


I'm helping my area to bring the rogue builders into the fold of legal building currently. It's tough forming that trust on both sides, but the result will be far more effective than the alternative.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

In my area the rogue builders started the advocacy group, because at a point that's what you got to do for sustainability and expansion possibilities. The legal building community is bullshit unless there are visionary local builders directing it, and those are always the rogues, or self-starters, if you will.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

bsieb said:


> In my area the rogue builders started the advocacy group, because at a point that's what you got to do for sustainability and expansion possibilities. The legal building community is bullshit unless there are visionary local builders directing it, and those are always the rogues, or self-starters, if you will.


I agree with you. The visionaries are the passionate riders, who are also the most invested in design to create the best experience. How many times have we seen paid builders from out of state come in and drive an excavator straight up a mountain to build a crap trail? Or land managers who drag their feet creating new trails because in their minds it just creates more trails for them to care for. It's almost as if they hate what they are doing. You can't say that about rogue builders. They put it all on the line.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

bsieb said:


> In my area the rogue builders started the advocacy group, because at a point that's what you got to do for sustainability and expansion possibilities. The legal building community is bullshit unless there are visionary local builders directing it, and those are always the rogues, or self-starters, if you will.


An unsuccessful example is the Sedona Mtn Bike Club which unfortunately aligned itself with IMBA and started off as a chapter. It had all the main players that built the trails that made Sedona great. The trail closures, combined with continued unsanctioned building, led IMBA to cancel their chapter status and the club died on the vine. The other local advocacy group with a much longer track record, albeit mostly road biking oriented, became the go-to organization. They also changed their affiliate status to chapter status and are the ones working with the USFS to adopt (many) and build (not many) trails. Interestingly, that club (Verde Valley Cyclist Coalition) recently switched back to being an affiliate instead of a chapter. The PROCESS as Switchblade likes to call it was contentious at best. The locals that built the trails are now largely without a voice unless they play ball with the VVCC and much of the marketing (for example, the Sedona Mtn Bike Festival) is run by johnny-come-latelys....Over the Edge Bike Shop and Hermosa Tours, an LBS and a tour guide company, respectively. They were not the visionaries but they moved to Sedona because of the opportunity. Not saying it's a bad thing but many of the locals are disenchanted with how the area has become a destination.

That's an example of where the rogue trail workers becoming an advocacy group didn't work. Some builders can't stop and the legal channels are excruciatingly slow.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Switchblade2 said:


> Leeboh does Nemba have weekly riding events with over 200 riders and a social at the end of the ride at a local restaurant? Does the mayor and a number of the City Council members belong to Nemba.


 It's not a contest. Great stuff can happen with 20-30 dedicated workers and involved citizens. I get Whistler is a special thing, as well as a money maker. 27 chapters, there are rides all over New England every day during the season, lots in winter as well. Our LBS sponsors a post ride pizza feed after the thursday night ride. One local success story for me, The Land Locked Forest in Burlington, MA. I live about 6 miles away and is quite popular for walkers, dog owners and bikers. It was however not open space or conservation land, and was in danger of being developed. Enter the Friends of the LLF group. We built bridges, boardwalks over swamps to connect routes, hosted historical and nature walks and got the local community involved, including the mayor and board of selectmen. The ones with the vote. Put up a kiosk with some wayfinding maps, hosted numerous trail work days and such. Fast forward 7 years, now it is preserved as open space. A great resource for the community. Small successes on a regional scale.
We also raised 200K and bought 47 acres of land. The 'Vietnam" property is in Milford and Holliston, MA. It was key that it also connected several other properties that now remain open space. Like I said, great work and advocacy in many places. Cheers.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

HacksawReynolds said:


> And isn't it just downright weird that NEMBA has nothing to do with VT yet NEMBA holds its huge annual bike fest at Kingdom trails.....in VT. Crazy.


 Great riding, a great venue, and all the amenities there. Works for me. Plus Mikes Tiki bar, 'nuff said.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> One local success story for me, The Land Locked Forest in Burlington, MA.


Speaking of rogue builds that were eventually adopted and 'legitimized'(/sanitized)... 

I used to ride there regularly ~20 years ago when it was known as the Private Reserve and was all sorts of tight'n'twisty.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

rockman said:


> An unsuccessful example is the Sedona Mtn Bike Club which unfortunately aligned itself with IMBA and started off as a chapter. It had all the main players that built the trails that made Sedona great. The trail closures, combined with continued unsanctioned building, led IMBA to cancel their chapter status and the club died on the vine. The other local advocacy group with a much longer track record, albeit mostly road biking oriented, became the go-to organization. They also changed their affiliate status to chapter status and are the ones working with the USFS to adopt (many) and build (not many) trails. Interestingly, that club (Verde Valley Cyclist Coalition) recently switched back to being an affiliate instead of a chapter. The PROCESS as Switchblade likes to call it was contentious at best. The locals that built the trails are now largely without a voice unless they play ball with the VVCC and much of the marketing (for example, the Sedona Mtn Bike Festival) is run by johnny-come-latelys....Over the Edge Bike Shop and Hermosa Tours, an LBS and a tour guide company, respectively. They were not the visionaries but they moved to Sedona because of the opportunity. Not saying it's a bad thing but many of the locals are disenchanted with how the area has become a destination.
> 
> That's an example of where the rogue trail workers becoming an advocacy group didn't work. Some builders can't stop and the legal channels are excruciatingly slow.


A lot of moving parts in Sedona. IMBA could have found a way to support Sedona Mountain Bike Club, but chose to betray them and tell the FS they should not work with them either. Their version, as told to me last week, was the FS told IMBA they could no longer work with the Club and that is when IMBA abandoned them. But then IMBA also told me they have no presence on MTBR of any kind, and even suggested the owners of MTBR purposely invite discord amongst members because it generates views and added revenue to them. I tried to point out that this very forum is sponsored by them, so they apparently do have a presence here.

I glanced up and down this forum to find discussions specific to dealing with apathetic land managers and how that often leads to rogue trail building. Didn't find anything. My path was one in which I was trained by the Forest Service and I was loyal to them, right up until that public gathering at the Adult Center at Thorpe Park where angry bikers showed up to complain about my crews ruining the character of Lower Oldham Trail. The Flagstaff Daily Sun wrote an article the next day called Trail Wars, where even Joe Murray went after my crews work. But John Nelson, the person in charge at the FS, sat at that meeting and listened to angry people voicing their opinions about the trail work, and never once did he or Brian stand up and say listen folks, we hired the trail crew. We trained the trail crew. Everything they did, we asked them to do. Don't attack them, attack us. We didn't listen to you. We didn't ask you what you wanted from us.

That day I knew they were not to be trusted ever again. They would always cave to public pressure. They were not willing to stand their ground because they didn't believe in any mission or vision. The rogue builders I had been opposed to, now seemed to make sense to me. They still do. But as you have said, their day is mostly passed in Flagstaff. Just like the Sedona Bike Club, they can only sit and watch and hope the land managers adopt some of their trails and create new challenging trails, despite their general apathy towards what we want.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Boris Badenov said:


> A lot of moving parts in Sedona. IMBA could have found a way to support Sedona Mountain Bike Club, but chose to betray them and tell the FS they should not work with them either. Their version, as told to me last week, was the FS told IMBA they could no longer work with the Club and that is when IMBA abandoned them. But then IMBA also told me they have no presence on MTBR of any kind, and even suggested the owners of MTBR purposely invite discord amongst members because it generates views and added revenue to them. I tried to point out that this very forum is sponsored by them, so they apparently do have a presence here.
> 
> I glanced up and down this forum to find discussions specific to dealing with apathetic land managers and how that often leads to rogue trail building. Didn't find anything. My path was one in which I was trained by the Forest Service and I was loyal to them, right up until that public gathering at the Adult Center at Thorpe Park where angry bikers showed up to complain about my crews ruining the character of Lower Oldham Trail. The Flagstaff Daily Sun wrote an article the next day called Trail Wars, where even Joe Murray went after my crews work. But John Nelson, the person in charge at the FS, sat at that meeting and listened to angry people voicing their opinions about the trail work, and never once did he or Brian stand up and say listen folks, we hired the trail crew. We trained the trail crew. Everything they did, we asked them to do. Don't attack them, attack us. We didn't listen to you. We didn't ask you what you wanted from us.
> 
> That day I knew they were not to be trusted ever again. They would always cave to public pressure. They were not willing to stand their ground because they didn't believe in any mission or vision. The rogue builders I had been opposed to, now seemed to make sense to me. They still do. But as you have said, their day is mostly passed in Flagstaff. Just like the Sedona Bike Club, they can only sit and watch and hope the land managers adopt some of their trails and create new challenging trails, despite their general apathy towards what we want.


Yep. The point being that it all boils down to having the right people involved. That goes for rouge builders, trail advocates, and land managers. Doers. When I look at other mtn towns around the West like Steamboat Springs, Salida, Durango, Sun Valley, Jackson, etc it seems like we are not one but two decades behind and most of that blame falls on the land manager and not the rogue builders or advocacy organizations.

It's hard to keep getting told NO but at least with regard to the USFS there is a new management plan in place that's coming from the top. That is, the National Trail Strategy from the Chief of the US Forest Service. Buzzwords like "shared stewardship" so we'll see where that goes. https://www.fs.fed.us/sites/default/files/national-trail-strategy.pdf


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

leeboh said:


> Great riding, a great venue, and all the amenities there. Works for me. Plus Mikes Tiki bar, 'nuff said.


Ya well so is Sugarloaf and North Conway. Both NEMBA chapter areas with better riding and more of it. Crazy.

if you're a huge trail advocacy org with some amazing trail networks/accomplishments shouldn't you hold your huge thousands of ridership annual festival at a NEMBA network to showcase all of your victories???


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Boris Badenov said:


> How many times have we seen paid builders from out of state come in and drive an excavator straight up a mountain to build a crap trail?


Never in my area. I don't appreciate you throwing pro builders under the table. Every single one I've met (or worked for, though I don't really consider myself one since it's not full time) has been one of the most passionate people about trails (quantity and quality) I've ever met. How could they not be?

You think the guy that gave up more reliable forms of income to make a living busting his ass building trails doesn't have passion? If so, you've lost your damn mind.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Excavators of any kind have no business building MTB trails. Roads yes, trails no.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Ya well so is Sugarloaf and North Conway. Both NEMBA chapter areas with better riding and more of it. Crazy.
> 
> if you're a huge trail advocacy org with some amazing trail networks/accomplishments shouldn't you hold your huge thousands of ridership annual festival at a NEMBA network to showcase all of your victories???


 I just attend and ride. You attend too? Victories? I just call them trails to ride. I'm not involved with the planning or logistics of Nembafest.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

TheDwayyo said:


> Never in my area. I don't appreciate you throwing pro builders under the table. Every single one I've met (or worked for, though I don't really consider myself one since it's not full time) has been one of the most passionate people about trails (quantity and quality) I've ever met. How could they not be?
> 
> You think the guy that gave up more reliable forms of income to make a living busting his ass building trails doesn't have passion? If so, you've lost your damn mind.


No disrespect meant towards the people you work for and with. We have seen two out of state builders come in a low bid and the land managers hired them without knowing they were not mountain bikers and had never built a trail for mountain bikers. One of them built a trail with 20 percent climbs in a couple spots and 90 degree turns on steep sections. The other also had no prior trail building experience and created something for children, it seems, as the turns only work when you slow to 5mph. I wish there was a better database of builders with yelp style reviews so land managers would hire based on cost per foot, but rather by quality of trail produced.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

leeboh said:


> I just attend and ride. You attend too? Victories? I just call them trails to ride. I'm not involved with the planning or logistics of Nembafest.


I was part of the vendor village from 2012-2015 or 16. I used to own a home there. My father has lived there since the mid 90's when I started riding there. Riding there back then before KT was on the map was amazing. No more. I organized NEMBAFEST 1999 when it was on the Cape. Cape NEMBA board member back then. Victories=NEMBA advocated trail networks didn't just happen in many or most cases and places like NCon and the loaf are to be celebrated with a NEMBA fest. Not in VT where NEMBA has no presence. You get it now???


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Money maker if it works for you. Private ownership, yes? Year round great outdoor rec. opportunities, great. MA has mostly public state parks and forests, just pay for parking some of the time. Some areas like VT and others have a whole outdoor recreation economy money maker thing going, not a bad thing if all the parts work. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.


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## DCFarris (Jun 12, 2017)

Boris Badenov said:


> I wish there was a better database of builders with yelp style reviews so land managers would hire based on cost per foot, but rather by quality of trail produced.


Perhaps you are on to something here Boris. What would it take to organize and build something like this?


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

leeboh said:


> Money maker if it works for you. Private ownership, yes?


He's referring to the areas outside the Whistler-Blackcomb resort and mountain. So, for example, Lord of the Squirrels is on RMOW land.



DCFarris said:


> What would it take to organize and build something like this?


I think you'd need a union or some kind of professional organization to take it on. Most people around here don't even know who the builders are. Sometimes leads to amusing opinions about how THIS trail was built by a good builder and THAT one wasn't, even though the same builder did both.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

ALL trails should cost ZERO dollars to build. The end.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

HacksawReynolds said:


> ALL trails should cost ZERO dollars to build. The end.


Zero would be difficult. I recall scouting a location on county land for a new trail. I came up with a 6 mile long route I liked. I flagged it and took the county park manager out to walk it, telling him it was going to be a perfect cross-country ski course during the winter. That was how I sold him on the idea. He had previously worked in Oregon and really wanted a cross-country ski course. So he gives me the thumbs up. I didn't have to speak to anyone else. He just said do it. The next day, work began. I was supervising Americorps funded conservation crews doing tree thinning projects, so I had plenty of labor. I just needed a few pairs of loppers and a pole saw. We finished that 6 mile trail in a few months and it cost him $300 for those tools, plus I rented a stump grinder for a day.

But if you had an active mountain biking club with motivated members willing to dig and move rocks and fell trees, you could conceivably build at no cost, assuming you had the tools.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Switchblade2 said:


> Lee I personally don't believe there any place in the whole world that has the bike advocacy that Whistler has. There is a total population of about 12,000 people. I would assume the NE area you claim has better advocacy has a larger population.


Your 12,000 people number is disingenuous. That may be permanent residents but it comes nowhere close to telling the whole story.

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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Boris Badenov said:


> Zero would be difficult. I recall scouting a location on county land for a new trail. I came up with a 6 mile long route I liked. I flagged it and took the county park manager out to walk it, telling him it was going to be a perfect cross-country ski course during the winter. That was how I sold him on the idea. He had previously worked in Oregon and really wanted a cross-country ski course. So he gives me the thumbs up. I didn't have to speak to anyone else. He just said do it. The next day, work began. I was supervising Americorps funded conservation crews doing tree thinning projects, so I had plenty of labor. I just needed a few pairs of loppers and a pole saw. We finished that 6 mile trail in a few months and it cost him $300 for those tools, plus I rented a stump grinder for a day.
> 
> But if you had an active mountain biking club with motivated members willing to dig and move rocks and fell trees, you could conceivably build at no cost, assuming you had the tools.


A cross country ski trail is not a MTB trail. Not that you can't XC ski on a MTB trail. Yes of course you need tools of some sort and they cost money. The last 6 miles of trail that I created thru very rocky hilly terrain with some water crossings was done in totality with my trusty $19.99 fiskers folding saw from Home Depot.

So how much per foot is that? Lol.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

HacksawReynolds said:


> A cross country ski trail is not a MTB trail. Not that you can't XC ski on a MTB trail. Yes of course you need tools of some sort and they cost money. The last 6 miles of trail that I created thru very rocky hilly terrain with some water crossings was done in totality with my trusty $19.99 fiskers folding saw from Home Depot.
> 
> So how much per foot is that? Lol.


Yes, but how many riders annually will your trail see? How many steep hillsides did you have to traverse for hundreds of yards with no alternative route?

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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Some Trails that are well over 20 years old that I've created see hundreds of riders per week much of the year and steady traffic thru the winter were created the same way. Low impact. It's all about proper routing and taking the line that the topography and natural features dictate.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Some Trails that are well over 20 years old that I've created see hundreds of riders per week much of the year and steady traffic thru the winter were created the same way. Low impact. It's all about proper routing and taking the line that the topography and natural features dictate.


That's a vague answer to a specific set of questions. Also, how many jumps, berms, and wooden features do you include in your trails? As you know these elements are quite popular and your personal opinions do not make them correct or incorrect to add.

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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

tuckerjt07 said:


> That's a vague answer to a specific set of questions. Also, how many jumps, berms, and wooden features do you include in your trails? As you know these elements are quite popular and your personal opinions do not make them correct or incorrect to add.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Really guy? Good grief. (Rolls eyes)


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Really guy? Good grief. (Rolls eyes)


If you make outlandish, absolute statements you should expect to get called on it. The refusal to answer tells me all I need to know. Not everyone can create a rake and ride, terrain, acreage and topography will not allow it. Not everyone desires to solely ride a rake and ride. The fact that you do does not mean everyone else is wrong.

Your continued self-aggrandizing behavior concerning it does nothing to further conversations such as the one taking place in this thread.

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## CANADIANBACON (Sep 25, 2005)

rockman said:


> An unsuccessful example is the Sedona Mtn Bike Club which unfortunately aligned itself with IMBA and started off as a chapter. It had all the main players that built the trails that made Sedona great. The trail closures, combined with continued unsanctioned building, led IMBA to cancel their chapter status and the club died on the vine. The other local advocacy group with a much longer track record, albeit mostly road biking oriented, became the go-to organization. They also changed their affiliate status to chapter status and are the ones working with the USFS to adopt (many) and build (not many) trails. Interestingly, that club (Verde Valley Cyclist Coalition) recently switched back to being an affiliate instead of a chapter. The PROCESS as Switchblade likes to call it was contentious at best. The locals that built the trails are now largely without a voice unless they play ball with the VVCC and much of the marketing (for example, the Sedona Mtn Bike Festival) is run by johnny-come-latelys....Over the Edge Bike Shop and Hermosa Tours, an LBS and a tour guide company, respectively. They were not the visionaries but they moved to Sedona because of the opportunity. Not saying it's a bad thing but many of the locals are disenchanted with how the area has become a destination.
> 
> That's an example of where the rogue trail workers becoming an advocacy group didn't work. Some builders can't stop and the legal channels are excruciatingly slow.


Rock,

The Sedona Mountain Bike Club was NEVER an advocacy group of "rogue builders". We had more than a few of them in the org but they comprised a very, VERY small percentage of our membership. What is telling is that the most prolific unsanctioned trail builder in Sedona's history left our org to sit on the board of the VVCC and now the Red Rock Trail Fund! Although I can't be certain I am pretty sure both IMBA and the USFS were very aware of this persons conduct. How does this FACT fit within your beliefs / comments?

Boris comments:


Boris Badenov said:


> A lot of moving parts in Sedona. IMBA could have found a way to support Sedona Mountain Bike Club, but chose to betray them and tell the FS they should not work with them either. Their version, as told to me last week, was the FS told IMBA they could no longer work with the Club and that is when IMBA abandoned them.


are not complete but at least they are accurate.

Dude!?

CB


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Switchblade2 said:


> Tuck so what is the STORY? A community of 12,000 residents (Sedona has 15,000) and WORCA has 1,800 members (Verde Valley Cycling has about 125 mountain bikers).
> 
> Popcorn please.


It centers around a ski resort discovering a dormant revenue stream and enticing thousands of visitors.

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## CANADIANBACON (Sep 25, 2005)

tuckerjt07 said:


> If you make outlandish, absolute statements you should expect to get called on it. The refusal to answer tells me all I need to know. Not everyone can create a rake and ride, terrain, acreage and topography will not allow it. Not everyone desires to solely ride a rake and ride. The fact that you do does not mean everyone else is wrong.
> 
> Your continued self-aggrandizing behavior concerning it does nothing to further conversations such as the one taking place in this thread.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Tuck,

Are you a professional, paid mountain bike advocate or trail builder? An honest answer would be helpful in understanding the context of your comments.

Thanks,
CB


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

CANADIANBACON said:


> Rock,
> 
> The Sedona Mountain Bike Club was NEVER an advocacy group of "rogue builders". We had more than a few of them in the org but they comprised a very, VERY small percentage of our membership. What is telling is that the most prolific unsanctioned trail builder in Sedona's history left our org to sit on the board of the VVCC and now the Red Rock Trail Fund! Although I can't be certain I am pretty sure both IMBA and the USFS were very aware of this persons conduct. How does this FACT fit within your beliefs / comments?
> 
> ...


My apologies. My bad to lump all the members (I was also a member and made some substantial donations) into the rouge trail builder category when in reality the membership were 98% folks trying to do things through proper channels. My beliefs/comments were made in response to this post by Bsieb


> In my area the rogue builders started the advocacy group, because at a point that's what you got to do for sustainability and expansion possibilities. The legal building community is bullshit unless there are visionary local builders directing it, and those are always the rogues, or self-starters, if you will.


 Guess I had it wrong the but FACTS are getting hazy. Either way, the club met with an unfortunate early demise and IMBA hung you guys out to dry. Perhaps it's not a good example. Not sure what to say about the rest. Nobody will tell the full story. This is the best synopsis but still some things go unsaid. https://www.pinkbike.com/news/Sedrama-growing-pains-in-Sedona-April-2013.html


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

CANADIANBACON said:


> Tuck,
> 
> Are you a professional, paid mountain bike advocate or trail builder? An honest answer would be helpful in understanding the context of your comments.
> 
> ...


Canuck,

I don't make a dime in the mountain bike industry.

Thanks, 
JT

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## CANADIANBACON (Sep 25, 2005)

rockman said:


> My apologies. My bad to lump all the members (I was also a member and made some substantial donations) into the rouge trail builder category when in reality the membership were 98% folks trying to do things through proper channels. My beliefs/comments were made in response to this post by Bsieb Guess I had it wrong the but FACTS are getting hazy. Either way, the club met with an unfortunate early demise and IMBA hung you guys out to dry. Perhaps it's not a good example. Not sure what to say about the rest. Nobody will tell the full story. This is the best synopsis but still some things go unsaid. https://www.pinkbike.com/news/Sedrama-growing-pains-in-Sedona-April-2013.html


Thanks for clearing that up Rock.

Good people in a mountain bike community were pulling together in the right way and got totally screwed by orgs/people who were supposed to be working for/with them... and they bloody well knew what they were doing... and did it anyway for all the wrong reasons. The self-serving end justified the means. Case closed.

The good shouldn't be forgotten and the corrupt will never get a pass on that one.

Lee is a great friend to mountain bikers everywhere. He did a fantastic job with a tough subject in a short amount of time. That said, we now have a lot more important and relevant info on that subject. I want to commend and support Lee, but I have to ask, is it a good idea to direct people to an article as the "best synopsis" when it unintentionally falls short?

CB


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## indiemtbkr (Jul 9, 2005)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Excavators of any kind have no business building MTB trails. Roads yes, trails no.





HacksawReynolds said:


> ALL trails should cost ZERO dollars to build. The end.




OMG, Excavators are bad. They should definitely not be used to build trails like this, haha: 




It really all depends on what kind of trail you're building and where you're building. For example, you might want one if you're building a beginner trail on steep terrain with lots of vegetation. You could build a steep tight-radius hiker switchback by hand that is not beginner-friendly or you could just use an excavator. Yes, beginner trails can look like nice smooth roads but beginners need trails to ride on too.

However, a machine built trail doesn't have to be 5 foot wide! There's all sizes of excavators and you can even narrow the trail behind you as you're building it. They're also good at building jumps, berms, drainages and moving rocks (off the trail or back on to the trail).


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

tuckerjt07 said:


> If you make outlandish, absolute statements you should expect to get called on it. The refusal to answer tells me all I need to know. Not everyone can create a rake and ride, terrain, acreage and topography will not allow it. Not everyone desires to solely ride a rake and ride. The fact that you do does not mean everyone else is wrong.
> 
> Your continued self-aggrandizing behavior concerning it does nothing to further conversations such as the one taking place in this thread.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


It's my thread guy. I build trail how I build trail. For me, not anyone else. Jumps, berms and wooden features are bike park krap. My features that allow one to get air or make a banked turn are a product of what the lay of the land offers up.

Anyone can create a rake and ride if they choose their areas wisely.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

CANADIANBACON said:


> Tuck,
> 
> Are you a professional, paid mountain bike advocate or trail builder? An honest answer would be helpful in understanding the context of your comments.
> 
> ...


Tuck is just a doosh.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

HacksawReynolds said:


> It's my thread guy. I build trail how I build trail. For me, not anyone else. Jumps, berms and wooden features are bike park krap. My features that allow one to get air or make a banked turn are a product of what the lay of the land offers up.
> 
> Anyone can create a rake and ride if they choose their areas wisely.


No, technically it's fc's thread but I'm sure that distinction will also escape you. I have to say, your trails sound terribly boring. If they're any reflection of the builder's personality they are going to be dated, rigid and stuffy.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

indiemtbkr said:


> OMG, Excavators are bad. They should definitely not be used to build trails like this, haha:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Modern day trail building using heavy machinery has created a monster. An expensive one. A high impact one. An unnecessary one, IMO.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

tuckerjt07 said:


> No, technically it's fc's thread but I'm sure that distinction will also escape you.






> I have to say, your trails sound terribly boring. If they're any reflection of the builder's personality they are going to be dated, rigid and stuffy.


You will never know now will you?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

HacksawReynolds said:


> You will never know now will you?


You ask that question as if you think I actually care.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

CANADIANBACON said:


> Thanks for clearing that up Rock.
> 
> Good people in a mountain bike community were pulling together in the right way and got totally screwed by orgs/people who were supposed to be working for/with them... and they bloody well knew what they were doing... and did it anyway for all the wrong reasons. The self-serving end justified the means. Case closed.
> 
> ...


Again, I apologize for painting the Sedona riders and builders with a broad brush. My take is a community of passionate but disparate personalities couldn't find common ground. IMBA didn't help and folks in your own community sold you out. Lee's article IMO is more relevant than the one in High Country News that was skewed and poorly written. https://www.hcn.org/issues/47.12/il...rest-service-crackdown-divide-an-arizona-town

WRT to your question, is there not something to be learned here? This is, after all, a discussion forum about trail advocacy. Where would you direct people if they want to learn more?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Switchblade2 said:


> Lee I personally don't believe there any place in the whole world that has the bike advocacy that Whistler has. There is a total population of about 12,000 people. I would assume the NE area you claim has better advocacy has a larger population.


 So you've researched all the bike clubs in the world? Details please. Like I said, it's not a contest, great trail build passion exists in so many spots. So many IMBA chapters everywhere. And the pockets of other mt bike clubs all over too. Trail miles, trails/land saved, number of rides and trail days, number of members? All good, all a positive force. And better than all that? The amount of NICA chapters forming and attracting the next generation of riders into the sport. It's booming in new England. Cheers.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

HacksawReynolds said:


> ALL trails should cost ZERO dollars to build. The end.


 How do you propose building boardwalks with pressure treated lumber? Buying it with fairy dust? We do SO much of that all over this area. Many times the boardwalks are the only solution for wetland concerns and connecting trails. Even I need food and beverage after a trail work day too.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

leeboh said:


> How do you propose building boardwalks with pressure treated lumber? Buying it with fairy dust? We do SO much of that all over this area. Many times the boardwalks are the only solution for wetland concerns and connecting trails. Even I need food and beverage after a trail work day too.


I use lumber that I find thru different channels. Discarded pallets and such. Food and beverage are something we need as humans anyway. Nice day for a ride. Headed out to roll the good dirt that you claim does not exist this time of year. 😜


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## indiemtbkr (Jul 9, 2005)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Modern day trail building using heavy machinery has created a monster. An expensive one. A high impact one. An unnecessary one, IMO.


That sounds like something a hiker who is opposed to mountain bike trails would say. Trails bad, wilderness good... How much more impact are they really creating? Having fun well-built trails that last a long time isn't so bad.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Discarded pallets and such.


That stuff falls apart so fast it isn't even worth building out of IME.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

HacksawReynolds said:


> I use lumber that I find thru different channels. Discarded pallets and such. Food and beverage are something we need as humans anyway. Nice day for a ride. Headed out to roll the good dirt that you claim does not exist this time of year. 😜


 We use 4x4 PT posts driven into the mud/dirt for the foundation of the stringers and decking. You think pallets will last or be strong enough? Not. Especially for ground contact. Going to mill on site some rot resistant cedar or locust?. Try agin, really. And food and beverage suppled by the club is a nice gesture after giving up 1/2 a day of digging dirt or hauling lumber on the weekend. Saturday I will be doing some local trail walk with my saw and rake, wicked noreaster inbound. I find this time of year is great to check the low spots and clear some drains. Pedal on.


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

We've got some local clubs here in Oregon that have done on-site milling of cedar. It's tough work, and the wood stringers and posts still don't last. Our long-term goal on our local BLM system (Alsea Falls) is to move to steel with bolted-on rough-cut cedar decking, like you see here in Knoxville, TN. This is a big wall-ride but the idea would be to build ladder drops that last, if we can get them approved:









For now it's all natural roots, imported rocks, and hand-finished. Some of it built by machine and some by hand. Some looks like wider flow endurobro trail, some has a narrower XC feel. The look of the trail doesn't always correlate with the tools used to build it:

Here's a machine-built trail (lower Bailout):








Here's a hand-built trail (upper Highballer):








Most of us don't have much interest in hand-building from scratch in this zone. Too much pain getting through the organic and moving the dirt. We've fundraised the excavator and powered wheelbarrows and now we can accomplish much more with fewer volunteers.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> That stuff falls apart so fast it isn't even worth building out of IME.


Not the way that I use them. They last for years.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

indiemtbkr said:


> That sounds like something a hiker who is opposed to mountain bike trails would say. Trails bad, wilderness good... How much more impact are they really creating? Having fun well-built trails that last a long time isn't so bad.


MTB trails with man made stunts and "flow" bermed brown sidewalks out in the woods/wilderness are VERY unsightly IMO. Keep that stuff at the resorts and contained bike parks. I don't blame the hikers and their views regarding some MTB trails one bit.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

tbmaddux said:


> We've got some local clubs here in Oregon that have done on-site milling of cedar. It's tough work, and the wood stringers and posts still don't last. Our long-term goal on our local BLM system (Alsea Falls) is to move to steel with bolted-on rough-cut cedar decking, like you see here in Knoxville, TN. This is a big wall-ride but the idea would be to build ladder drops that last, if we can get them approved:
> 
> View attachment 1185419
> 
> ...


Im sure glad I don't have to look at all of that^^^^^^noise out in the wilds by me.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

leeboh said:


> We use 4x4 PT posts driven into the mud/dirt for the foundation of the stringers and decking. You think pallets will last or be strong enough? Not. Especially for ground contact. Going to mill on site some rot resistant cedar or locust?. Try agin, really. And food and beverage suppled by the club is a nice gesture after giving up 1/2 a day of digging dirt or hauling lumber on the weekend. Saturday I will be doing some local trail walk with my saw and rake, wicked noreaster inbound. I find this time of year is great to check the low spots and clear some drains. Pedal on.


I repurpose each pallet by cutting them in half so that the middle stringer is now the other outside stringer. Then I fill in the gaps with extra slats. Nice thing about pallets is they are easy to get them to where you want them and sections are easily replaceable. I do very little wetland area bridging as some areas are just not meant to have MTB trails going thru them and should be left untouched IMO. My pallet bridges last for years, btw.

Amazing conditions out there today. Long sleeved Jersey and bike came home clean. Got some clearing done and opened up a new fun multi slab granite roll down section. Al natural the way nature left it there. No digging, no ramping. Just cleared some deadfall and cut some whips. It rolls real nice and the lower slab has a nice naturally banked transition to it. Boy do we have the glacial erratics to play with!👍


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## DCFarris (Jun 12, 2017)

tbmaddux said:


> Here's a machine-built trail (lower Bailout):
> View attachment 1185421





HacksawReynolds said:


> Im sure glad I don't have to look at all of that^^^^^^noise out in the wilds by me.


This pic actually looks like something a hiker would be following around me. How about post up a few pics of your trials so we can see what you are talking about. I would personally love to see how you use pallet wood to get so much life out of it.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

DCFarris said:


> This pic actually looks like something a hiker would be following around me. How about post up a few pics of your trials so we can see what you are talking about. I would personally love to see how you use pallet wood to get so much life out of it.


I will later. Half to go back to work for a few hours.🙂


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## indytrekracer (Feb 13, 2004)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Im sure glad I don't have to look at all of that^^^^^^noise out in the wilds by me.


I like being involved in building and riding a wide diversity or trails. Ideally each trail we build has something that makes it unique. I have been involved in building trails rated from beginner to double black diamond, trails that are fast and flowy to trails that are slow and technical, trails that are machine built to hand crafted single track.

In some cases I have built trails that tested my currently riding skills.

Schooner Trace, our double black diamond trail raised the bar for technical riding skills and challenged me to become a better rider.

We just built the Hobbs Hollow Flow trail, which is a jump oriented flow trail. I never had the opportunity to do much jumping, so this trail challenges my current skill set. But I will be a better rider thanks to this trail.

Having been involved in maintaining and building trails for 15 years, I have gotten used to the complaints any new trail gets. If we build a narrow hand built expert trail, then people complain that they are tax payers and we shouldn't build trails on public land that are too hard for them to ride. If we build an beginner trail, we get complaints from the so called hard core riders that we are dumbing down the sport. The new trail is too fast, too slow, too tight, too wide, too many rocks too many logs, not enough features, etc........

The more time that goes on, the more I think mountain bikers are their own worst enemy. Riders put themselves in a very tiny box of trail types that they deem acceptable. Rather than learn the skills or try new experiences they rail against any trail that doesn't fit in their tiny little box. Everyone else is wrong and they are right.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

TBMaddux, imported rocks? Is this a thing? Guess you can only work with what you have nearby. Not lacking for "rocks" here in New England. Our organic duff layer to get to mineral soil is usually 2-5 inches or so. Pretty quick work with a sharp rogue hoe. More where you are? 99% of the trail builds I'm involved with are all hand built. So much rock, sometimes it's just fixing a little dirt here and there to connect all the rock ledges.


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## indiemtbkr (Jul 9, 2005)

indytrekracer said:


> The more time that goes on, the more I think mountain bikers are their own worst enemy. Riders put themselves in a very tiny box of trail types that they deem acceptable. Rather than learn the skills or try new experiences they rail against any trail that doesn't fit in their tiny little box. Everyone else is wrong and they are right.


I agree. It's good to have a wide variety of trails since everyone is at different skill levels and likes different trails. Mountain biking wouldn't be as much fun if all the trails were the same style.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

HacksawReynolds said:


> I repurpose each pallet by cutting them in half so that the middle stringer is now the other outside stringer. Then I fill in the gaps with extra slats. Nice thing about pallets is they are easy to get them to where you want them and sections are easily replaceable. I do very little wetland area bridging as some areas are just not meant to have MTB trails going thru them and should be left untouched IMO. My pallet bridges last for years, btw.
> 
> Amazing conditions out there today. Long sleeved Jersey and bike came home clean. Got some clearing done and opened up a new fun multi slab granite roll down section. Al natural the way nature left it there. No digging, no ramping. Just cleared some deadfall and cut some whips. It rolls real nice and the lower slab has a nice naturally banked transition to it. Boy do we have the glacial erratics to play with!👍


 Agreed on some of the mtb trail routing. Many of the trails we work on are mutli use, sometimes older stuff we are trying to fix. But sometimes it's the only way to connect stuff and need to follow the land managers wishes. Balance the needs of the many. Not going to see pallets on anything official around here. Getting 15 years out of your stuff? Lots of our trails see kids, dogs, a few horses and sometimes the need for a rangers' ATV too. Add in an occasional ADA trail build requirement. So much slab to work with here too, crazy grip and lines.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I'm not from Sedona, just to be clear, and Sedona is not a good place to draw generalizations or examples from... it's very unique* there. I feel like I build trail in a sea of calm here in NW New Mexico, where we are all pulling in the same direction, including our local FS. Current project involves some 200 miles of new singletrack in the Zuni Mountains. Mostly old school style trail, some old routes, some new, all done by the same folks who built the original social trails. I see no end to it, as the three surrounding reservations are starting to catch the trail vibe. Their biggest obstacle is that they have no local "rogue" trail builders to lead the way.


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

DCFarris said:


> This pic actually looks like something a hiker would be following around me.


Exactly. Many of our trails narrow down to less than bar width. The salal and mahonia (Oregon grape) can overwhelm some spots, even with people riding through. So we



leeboh said:


> TBMaddux, imported rocks? Is this a thing?


Yes. 30 tons of it trucked in from a nearby quarry in 2015 for Whistlepunk trail. Anchored in place by volunteers, BLM staff, and IMBA staff. Intermittent armor patches / rock gardens that introduce a "technical" challenge at low speed and a jump opportunity at high speed:











leeboh said:


> Our organic duff layer to get to mineral soil is usually 2-5 inches or so. Pretty quick work with a sharp rogue hoe. More where you are?


Usually it's 1-3ft. Unless you come across a tree that came down hundreds of years ago and now the organics go down 5ft or more. This is in the backcountry of the Oregon coast range. It's not like that everywhere in this range. I've found organic under an inch deep at Whypass and in the McDonald Forest, from 30 minutes to an hour away. So it just ... depends.



HacksawReynolds said:


> Im sure glad I don't have to look at all of that


How about this or this (both from BRMBA):


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

indiemtbkr said:


> lol


Lol yourself.



> I agree. It's good to have a wide variety of trails since everyone is at different skill levels and likes different trails. Mountain biking wouldn't be as much fun if all the trails were the same style.


I'm all about variety. Variety in what different areas offer as far as topography and geologic make up goes. Some areas I build in are flatter and smoother by nature so those trails accommodate novices very well. Other areas in the same county are VERY technical in nature and are never flat with steeper grades and more rock than dirt in some cases. Some areas have more vert with nice vistas and other areas follow rivers, streams and ponds. Variety. The area I rode today is very challenging in that you spend a lot of time out of the saddle thrusting up natural rock features or dropping off of ledges and negotiating tight twisty turns with natural technical features along the way. Nothing homogenized or pasturized like so many areas that were "made" technical by trucking stuff in. High impact high carbon footprint stuff like some of you guys are talking about.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

DCFarris said:


> This pic actually looks like something a hiker would be following around me. How about post up a few pics of your trials so we can see what you are talking about. I would personally love to see how you use pallet wood to get so much life out of it.


That machine built trail with the guy walking looks like the machine wreaked havoc in there. High impact distructo. No Bueno.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

tbmaddux said:


> Exactly. Many of our trails narrow down to less than bar width. The salal and mahonia (Oregon grape) can overwhelm some spots, even with people riding through. So we
> 
> Yes. 30 tons of it trucked in from a nearby quarry in 2015 for Whistlepunk trail. Anchored in place by volunteers, BLM staff, and IMBA staff. Intermittent armor patches / rock gardens that introduce a "technical" challenge at low speed and a jump opportunity at high speed:
> 
> ...


That serpentine roller ramp looks unsightly to me. And unnecessary to have in nature.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Makes me appreciate all the rocks we got laying around, that's for sure!


I like me some variety as far as different styles of trails and riding goes.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

This is riding from my driveway. No driving. No carbon.

Pallet bridge. This bridge is 7 sections all intact and in good shape after 5 years of service.








Typical low impact trail. Miles and miles of it. Lots of granite.








climbs 500ft vert gain per mile.








Some smooth








Some views








Mostly chunky rocky


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Makes me appreciate all the rocks we got laying around, that's for sure!
> 
> 
> I like me some variety as far as different styles of trails and riding goes.


Ya we got it good.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

HacksawReynolds said:


> This is riding from my driveway. No driving. No carbon.
> 
> Pallet bridge. This bridge is 7 sections all intact and in good shape after 5 years of service.
> View attachment 1185484
> ...


Wondering why that bridge/wood structure is even needed there.:skep:
From the pics you posted here, "building" would be pretty much moving crap off to the side. This is far from what most people have to build on. We rarely have more than 50 feet that looks like that


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Dirtrider127 said:


> Wondering why that bridge/wood structure is even needed there.:skep:
> From the pics you posted here, "building" would be pretty much moving crap off to the side. This is far from what most people have to build on. We rarely have more than 50 feet that looks like that


The area that the pallet bridges span is a wet swampy area that never fully dries up. Tough to tell with the leaf cover.

What do "most people" have to build on?


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Switchblade2 said:


> Hack I love your posts. You can have miles of new routes in a matter of a couple days. Your love of the sport is commendable.


Thanx Switch, same to you. Decades of creating trail in multiple plus states where trails never existed. All low impact. Dirt is dirt. Scratch it in.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

From my driveway...not endless tracts of land by any means, but we've got some very cool and generous local landowners.

Most of what we build locally is rake-n-ride that wears in nicely after a few years. We get fairly low but regular traffic, and a good amount of mixed use as we run a lot of trails near water and people dig 'em. Some stuff is really easy to follow and access, some is more off the beaten track. 















But I've gotta say, I really really enjoy building berms too. From my door to our track is 2.5 miles, all trail. Brewery is another half mile. Town pays for screened loam on demand, as well as tools. 















Backyard shuttle run, still a hit with the locals in the know. Old school build but has held up really well over time. 

























No need to build or ride the same stuff all the time. Lots of ways to have fun on bikes.
:thumbsup:


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

HacksawReynolds said:


> The area that the pallet bridges span is a wet swampy area that never fully dries up. Tough to tell with the leaf cover.
> 
> What do "most people" have to build on?


 Your "bridge" is nothing more than some boards laying on the ground. Seems would not to work if one has to cross a stream or active wetlands. So much for the no cost idea.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

HacksawReynolds said:


> The area that the pallet bridges span is a wet swampy area that never fully dries up. Tough to tell with the leaf cover.
> 
> What do "most people" have to build on?


The picture posted above labeled "machine built trail" is what "most people" "probably" encounter. You have to clear a lot of brush just to see the ground to start the work on the trail.

Here's a pic of a local trail we built.








This is after massive brushing back first. Look at the brush in the back ground. We had to cut all that out first. Then look at bench cutting required to even find a base to built on. This pic doesn't really show the slope we had to work with. You just can't "rake and ride" sir. In your pics you can. 
Back to the topic: the first PROCESS of this trail build was getting legal permission to start, design it, go to countless meetings, impact studies, blah blah blah. We have people that thanklessly did all this just to get to a legal trail building day. Our local chapter took the lead, not IMBA, and the local people got it done after many years of the legal PROCESS.
Consider yourself a very lucky man if you don't have to go through all this. Just like trails, not all areas are the same.
Ride on...


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Here's my perspective. First off, Rog the OP's question is akin to asking "how deep is a well?".

20 years ago a handful of us were bootleg trail builders with a blank canvas to work on. The USFS discovered some of the trails and found someone else's flagging tape and tried to brush in some of the trails. An alleged "disgruntled FS employee" went overboard and cut live trees, including some across a trail that had been in place since the 1930s. The local biking community was justifiably pissed and the FS called a meeting. They admitted to screwing up and stated that biking on these trails was actually not prohibited, as "cross-country travel", i.e. bushwhacking through the woods, was allowed under the then-current Forest Plan. However, building or maintaining these trails was not allowed. They agreed to evaluate the trail system and requested an organized group to work with. The local NEMBA chapter was brand new with maybe 7 members. I joined and became part of the solution since I had created part of the problem. We provided a map of the local trails even when some locals thought we were crazy to do so. After many years of meetings and study, the FS adopted virtually all of the trails into their system. The local NEMBA chapter has done all maintenance and construction of relocations and the FS has not had to expend any time on the network. They like us and respect us now and actually hold us up as an example to other non-profit partners.

A couple of years after that **** hit the fan, NEMBA proposed construction of a new trail in a 900 acre tract of town land to the conservation commission. The first question we were asked is "how big is your organization and what is its long-term health?". We were fortunate to be able to say that NEMBA had 17 chapters and 4000 members at the time, although the local chapter had only about 25 or 30. We flagged out a portion of the proposed trail, they walked it with us and told us we obviously knew what we were doing and to go ahead. We have gone on to fund, design and replace two significant bridges for the town, build kiosks and trailheads and build miles of both hand-built and machine-built trails in the town. I was invited to become a member of the conservation commission, a role I still enjoy 16 years later. We're still actively building new trails on town land with minimal oversight, including progressive trails with a mix of raw tech and machine-built features.

The takeaway from all this is if "Tony & Joey" showed up wanting to build these trails they would have been laughed out the door. Land managers want to deal with organizations that will live past the times when Tony & Joey decide to take up kite boarding or some other activity. So the answer to the original question here is no, without the advocacy group we would have lost many trails and opportunities. 

HacksawRog, your minimal impact R&R trails work fine for the low-use, off the map ridership but I suspect they would not fare well as a public network. A lot of our old R&R trails become braided root mats that have to be dealt with to keep the line narrow. Your old trails on Cape Cod are a different animal and not comparable to a typical New England trail system. Pure sand with primarily oak trees (deep roots), "tire-benched" trails will often work fine in that terrain. Try it in a beech forest and the results will be remarkably different.

p.s. Using pallets is a joke. They end up being a pile of rotten wood full of nails far too soon. Build with stone (or PT as a last resort).


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

leeboh said:


> Your "bridge" is nothing more than some boards laying on the ground. Seems would not to work if one has to cross a stream or active wetlands. So much for the no cost idea.


This area is quite active actually. A steady stream flows through part of it when any rain or snowmelt occurs. And those aren't just boards, they are solid structures resting/supported on rocks from the immediate area. Here's the same repurposed type pallets used for a stream crossing. Right now the middle pallet is about an inch underwater which only happens during heavy rains or heavy snowmelt and it rides just fine. These are 5 years old also. Man sorry for the tiny pic.?


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Dirtrider127 said:


> The picture posted above labeled "machine built trail" is what "most people" "probably" encounter. You have to clear a lot of brush just to see the ground to start the work on the trail.
> 
> Here's a pic of a local trail we built.
> View attachment 1185569
> ...


Wow, all of your land looks like that?


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## DCFarris (Jun 12, 2017)

HacksawReynolds said:


> This area is quite active actually. A steady stream flows through part of it when any rain or snowmelt occurs. And those aren't just boards, they are solid structures resting/supported on rocks from the immediate area. Here's the same repurposed type pallets used for a stream crossing. Right now the middle pallet is about an inch underwater which only happens during heavy rains or heavy snowmelt and it rides just fine. These are 5 years old also. Man sorry for the tiny pic.😳
> 
> View attachment 1185576


I personally would worry about containments in the pallets if they are being used in areas where they will be underwater. Perhaps you have good sources for pallets, but I wouldn't trust any of the ones used around my area of town.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

radair said:


> Here's my perspective. First off, Rog the OP's question is akin to asking "how deep is a well?".
> 
> 20 years ago a handful of us were bootleg trail builders with a blank canvas to work on. The USFS discovered some of the trails and found someone else's flagging tape and tried to brush in some of the trails. An alleged "disgruntled FS employee" went overboard and cut live trees, including some across a trail that had been in place since the 1930s. The local biking community was justifiably pissed and the FS called a meeting. They admitted to screwing up and stated that biking on these trails was actually not prohibited, as "cross-country travel", i.e. bushwhacking through the woods, was allowed under the then-current Forest Plan. However, building or maintaining these trails was not allowed. They agreed to evaluate the trail system and requested an organized group to work with. The local NEMBA chapter was brand new with maybe 7 members. I joined and became part of the solution since I had created part of the problem. We provided a map of the local trails even when some locals thought we were crazy to do so. After many years of meetings and study, the FS adopted virtually all of the trails into their system. The local NEMBA chapter has done all maintenance and construction of relocations and the FS has not had to expend any time on the network. They like us and respect us now and actually hold us up as an example to other non-profit partners.
> 
> ...


I disagree about the pallets. They've worked great for me for years for my purposes. They are very sturdy and can be easily moved/propped up out of the way when not needed.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

DCFarris said:


> I personally would worry about containments in the pallets if they are being used in areas where they will be underwater. Perhaps you have good sources for pallets, but I wouldn't trust any of the ones used around my area of town.


Good point. I steer clear of any pressure treated or chemically altered pallets. I use the scraps from pallets for kindling for the wood stove so I'm anal about the pallet wood. I've got some great pallet sources right near me.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Wow, all of your land looks like that?


If it doesn't have 1.5M on up houses or shopping malls, yep, pretty much like that. 
The last 2 years we hand build about 8-9 miles (give or take) of nice ST trails for all to enjoy.We means supported by the SDMBA and NOT IMBA and volunteers that took time to help out.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Dirtrider127 said:


> If it doesn't have 1.5M on up houses or shopping malls, yep, pretty much like that.
> The last 2 years we hand build about 8-9 miles (give or take) of nice ST trails for all to enjoy.We means supported by the SDMBA and NOT IMBA and volunteers that took time to help out.


Strong work👍


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Strong work


We like to call it slave labor


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

Dirtrider127 said:


> Just like trails, not all areas are the same.


Exactly. We could never (long-term) get away with some of the uses of wood posted here. Everything rots too fast. Even the Plankenstein feature I posted from BRMBA is subject to frequent repair and maintenance.

Just over the hill in Bend there's trails that are largely old-school rake-and-ride in pine forest and young volcanic soil with a lot of sand and dust. Their only real issue is people riding during freeze-thaw. Otherwise it's just buttery smooth ribbons of singletrack for miles, and many places the "berms" are just the result of tens of thousands of tires pushing up a corner. They do get some widening but it's largely easily mitigated with a layer of pine needles and maybe some rock features to keep people on-trail.









Oh, this is on USFS land, built and maintained by volunteers, epic network of hundreds of miles of trail, right outside of town. First time I ever went there my mind was blown by their ability to keep so much trail open after the blowdown and deadfall every winter, compared to what we had going on in our area.

They also have lots more rocks than we do:









http://bendtrails.org/

Central Oregon Trail Alliance - Home


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Bend area is so gorgeous.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

radair said:


> Here's my perspective. First off, Rog the OP's question is akin to asking "how deep is a well?".


 Kinda douchey.



> 20 years ago a handful of us were bootleg trail builders with a blank canvas to work on. The USFS discovered some of the trails and found someone else's flagging tape and tried to brush in some of the trails. An alleged "disgruntled FS employee" went overboard and cut live trees, including some across a trail that had been in place since the 1930s. The local biking community was justifiably pissed and the FS called a meeting. They admitted to screwing up and stated that biking on these trails was actually not prohibited, as "cross-country travel", i.e. bushwhacking through the woods, was allowed under the then-current Forest Plan. However, building or maintaining these trails was not allowed. They agreed to evaluate the trail system and requested an organized group to work with. The local NEMBA chapter was brand new with maybe 7 members. I joined and became part of the solution since I had created part of the problem. We provided a map of the local trails even when some locals thought we were crazy to do so. After many years of meetings and study, the FS adopted virtually all of the trails into their system. The local NEMBA chapter has done all maintenance and construction of relocations and the FS has not had to expend any time on the network. They like us and respect us now and actually hold us up as an example to other non-profit partners.
> 
> A couple of years after that **** hit the fan, NEMBA proposed construction of a new trail in a 900 acre tract of town land to the conservation commission. The first question we were asked is "how big is your organization and what is its long-term health?". We were fortunate to be able to say that NEMBA had 17 chapters and 4000 members at the time, although the local chapter had only about 25 or 30. We flagged out a portion of the proposed trail, they walked it with us and told us we obviously knew what we were doing and to go ahead. We have gone on to fund, design and replace two significant bridges for the town, build kiosks and trailheads and build miles of both hand-built and machine-built trails in the town. I was invited to become a member of the conservation commission, a role I still enjoy 16 years later. We're still actively building new trails on town land with minimal oversight, including progressive trails with a mix of raw tech and machine-built features.
> 
> The takeaway from all this is if "Tony & Joey" showed up wanting to build these trails they would have been laughed out the door. Land managers want to deal with organizations that will live past the times when Tony & Joey decide to take up kite boarding or some other activity. So the answer to the original question here is no, without the advocacy group we would have lost many trails and opportunities.


Pro-tip/take away: don't use flagging tape when creating rogue trail. Tough to see a good thing ruined.



> Your old trails on Cape Cod are a different animal and not comparable to a typical New England trail system.


Well what worked on the Cape is working in Maine.



> Try it in a beech forest and the results will be remarkably different.


Simple solution. Don't route the trail thru a beech forest. Duh.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Simple solution. Don't route the trail thru a beech forest. Duh.


Not everyone has acres of unused timber company land to "construct" trails of questionable legality on.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Not everyone has acres of unused timber company land to "construct" trails of questionable legality on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


You have know idea what yer taking about here. Not a clue.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

HacksawReynolds said:


> You have know idea what yer taking about. Not a clue.


I "know" right. How dare someone call you out on statements you've made in the past.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

tuckerjt07 said:


> I "know" right. How dare someone call you out on statements you've made in the past.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


You make statements from your armchair in NWA with absolutely no clue of what it's really like where I live or where radair lives. I'm intimately familiar with where he lives and builds. He a bit less of where I live and build.

Timberland? Ah no. Nowhere near me. Questionable legality? Yer wrong again. All current work has been approved with additional hundreds of acres to expand.

Run along now troll boy.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

HacksawReynolds said:


> You make statements from your armchair in NWA with absolutely no clue of what it's really like where I live or where radair lives. I'm intimately familiar with where he lives and builds. He a bit less of where I live and build.
> 
> Timberland? Ah no. Nowhere near me. Questionable legality? Yer wrong again. All current work has been approved with additional hundreds of acres to expand.
> 
> Run along now troll boy.


So if I go dig up your posts saying you built miles of trails roguely will you admit to being a liar in regards to one statement or the other?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

tuckerjt07 said:


> So if I go dig up your posts saying you built miles of trails roguely will you admit to being a liar in regards to one statement or the other?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


What starts out as rogue doesn't always stay rogue. Some does. You have no idea how things work around here and I'm not going to try to guess how things work in NWA because frankly I don't give two Sh1ts, but apparently you do although you deny that fact like you have before. Again you have no idea what you're talking about from your armchair in NWA.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

And this isn't the first time that I've mentioned the legality of my current project. I'm surprised you missed the previous post given how you follow me around MTBR like a little troll boy.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

HacksawReynolds said:


> What starts out as rogue doesn't always stay rogue. Some does. You have no idea how things work around here and I'm not going to try to guess how things work in NWA because frankly I don't give two Sh1ts, but apparently you do although you deny that fact like you have before. Again you have no idea what you're talking about from your armchair in NWA.


It's pretty easy to have a clue when you admit to building rogue trails, as you just did. There's not much gray area there. If you don't like someone pointing that out maybe not putting it on the Internet in the first place would help? Also, toning down the arrogance and self righteous indignation might help as well.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

tuckerjt07 said:


> It's pretty easy to have a clue when you admit to building rogue trails, as you just did. There's not much gray area there. If you don't like someone pointing that out maybe not putting it on the Internet in the first place would help? Also, toning down the arrogance and self righteous indignation might help as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


The only thing I have a problem with is a clueless DB like yourself with no clue of how things work 2000 miles from where you reside blah blah blah'ing stuff that does not apply here.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

HacksawReynolds said:


> The only thing I have a problem with is a clueless DB like yourself with no clue of how things work 2000 miles from where you reside blah blah blah'ing stuff that does not apply here.


I'm not making a comment on "how things work" there. I'm making a comment on things you have said specific to yourself. Your locale has zero to do with any statement I've made.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Ok so where did I mention anything about "unused timber company land to "construct" trails of questionable legality on? 

Go ahead, go searching. Have fun with that.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

Wasn't the topic: " MTB advocacy groups, their own worst enemy? "
A bit side tracked,eh?

As long as you volunteer time and effort to move the sport forward, I'm all good with that. How, when , where is up to you


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Rake and rides through Beech and other assorted hardwood works just fine. You have to see the "Bones" before they are exposed and expect to cut some roots as the duff and top few inches of mineral dirt get pushed off. 

One thing about primitive trail creation is you have to cherry pick the land. Not all terrain is suitable for MTB trail. The early excavated trails here in Vt were done that way because we were given shitty steep land no one could put a house on and benching was the only way. Now when given access to dry, almost flat terrain, the designers search around to find a side hill steep enough to put a good bench on when they could add miles more trail faster, cheaper and easier....and the result would be way more interesting to a wider array of riders while still being beginner friendly.

When your only tool is a hammer....


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Ok so where did I mention anything about "unused timber company land to "construct" trails of questionable legality on?
> 
> Go ahead, go searching. Have fun with that.


Easily enough, took maybe five minutes. It's also been pointed out by people familiar with your locale, without you correcting them, that this is the case as well. 









Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Dirtrider127 said:


> If it doesn't have 1.5M on up houses or shopping malls, yep, pretty much like that.
> The last 2 years we hand build about 8-9 miles (give or take) of nice ST trails for all to enjoy.We means supported by the SDMBA and NOT IMBA and volunteers that took time to help out.


There are some tamer areas, but that's where the child labor comes in handy:


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

tuckerjt07, You keep seeing the same crap, may I suggest pulling your head out of your ass? Carrying your personal attitude toward Hacksaw across threads is getting annoying. Lighten up and learn, it's a big world.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Easily enough, took maybe five minutes. It's also been pointed out by people familiar with your locale, without you correcting them, that this is the case as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lots of small areas get logged around here, but it's far from Unused timber company land as you claimed. The area I mentioned where the ice storm wreaked havoc got logged due to the ice storm damage and is right in town surrounded by schools and neighborhoods. 100 acres of it is privately owned by a family and the other 200+ acres is conservation easement. You know nothing. Those people who posted aren't familiar at all with my area. Slap has never ridden in my area. Neither has Leeboh. Heck Leeboh thought I was located 4-6 hours north of me up in golden road country. Stick with what you know.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

bsieb said:


> tuckerjt07, You keep seeing the same crap, may I suggest pulling your head out of your ass? Carrying your personal attitude toward Hacksaw across threads is getting annoying. Lighten up and learn, it's a big world.


Well said thank you.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

the one ring said:


> There are some tamer areas, but that's where the child labor comes in handy:
> 
> View attachment 1185709


Similar area to where dirtrider had to brushhog thru all that shwack?


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

DaveVt said:


> Rake and rides through Beech and other assorted hardwood works just fine. You have to see the "Bones" before they are exposed and expect to cut some roots as the duff and top few inches of mineral dirt get pushed off.


Agreed. Plus beech stands produce thicker leaf fall which give you more organic material to add to the tread. Don't rake the leaves, ride them in.



> One thing about primitive trail creation is you have to cherry pick the land.


This is my most favorite part of creating trail.^^^^^^^



> Not all terrain is suitable for MTB trail.


Agree x 1000



> Now when given access to dry, almost flat terrain, the designers search around to find a side hill steep enough to put a good bench on when they could add miles more trail faster, cheaper and easier....and the result would be way more interesting to a wider array of riders while still being beginner friendly.
> 
> When your only tool is a hammer....


I always say, "build smart, not hard"^^^^^^


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

bsieb said:


> tuckerjt07, You keep seeing the same crap, may I suggest pulling your head out of your ass? Carrying your personal attitude toward Hacksaw across threads is getting annoying. Lighten up and learn, it's a big world.


No, I "see" something different each time. It's not an attitude toward a certain individual. It's ironic that the person making ASSumptions is talking about removing heads from bodily orifices. 

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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Similar area to where dirtrider had to brushhog thru all that shwack?


It's close in proximity, and connects to the the same area posted by dirtrider where the bulk of the new singletrack was built (with more coming in the future). There are several trail systems in San Diego that are built on similar steep terrain. This in particular is Black Mountain open space park.

Edit: The guy on the phone is one of the legends of trail building in our area. I think he's calling his kids to come pick up his grandson, who's the little one next to him. That may be the largest age gap of the crew that day. IIRC there were about 120 people who showed up for trail work.


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

Switchblade2 said:


> Why do people who take pictures of a trail work day always chose a shot of no one working?


What? The little kid with the plastic yellow shovel next to the guy on the phone is doing ALL the work!

Ok, though, just for you, here's one from No Secret in 2016, with a majority of the people working:









Hand-built in moderately steep terrain. Not a lot of organic, but built through an area which was thinned in 2014 and the slash left spread all over (not piled and burned), so a lot of clearing just to get to ground level.

Standard sustainable bench-cut trail. More open and fast at the top with many rock and stump and log features to jib. Lower down it's narrower, more technical. Fun to ride, does a good job of capturing how the old (destroyed in the thin) unauthorized trails felt, but it will hold up better in the long term.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Switchblade2 said:


> Why do people who take pictures of a trail work day always chose a shot of no one working?


Got me. I rarely stop to take pics.

IIRC the boy scouts in the upper right were stymied by a pretty large vein of buried rock.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

As the great philosopher once said...


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## Mt.Biker E (Mar 25, 2006)

leeboh said:


> As a legit trail builder, nothing pisses me off more than trying to fix some else's poorly built, braided crap than spending our time creating great, legal, LM approved singletrack. Here in MA, everything gets noticed. At least in the eastern section, lots of users, not huge amounts of land. The "struggle " is with all the illegal work, some areas more than others. Huge time suck. Just think about all the good work that could be done if everyone was on the same page. Really.


In CT we have the opposite problem. Nemba for some reason here attracts inexperienced & "average" riders at best that start nemba chapters and then want to build trail with zero experience, or they took a "trail" building" class taught by people that don't know what they are doing. The trail is typically boring and poorly thought out, 4 feet wide in places with benched sections a foot below grade for no reason other than to do it. They even had an excavator training class. No joke!
The saving grace we have a builder who went "legit" a while ago, so he comes in with us "old" school builders to consult or redo areas with deeps blessing. Nemba is CT is misguided, the promote trail building schools instead of teaching trail maintenance and trail etiquette. I would say 90% of the board members aren't qualified. They have pissed off the local Gnomes who have maintained & built trail networks over the past 20+ years by claiming areas under the Nemba flag. Areas still maintained by the locals. One place they are trying to get a trail put in an area that hunters have under contention and the local gnomes told them it wasn't a good idea and that area was run by the local crew. They then went behind the gnomes back & started the process putting in a trail. Part of the problem is nemba allowed chapter with no central chapter to guide & give approval. It is compounded by the fact the newbies starting these chapters don't have a clue who the og gnomes are & the history behind the trial systems. They just come in and think they now have rights over some ones passion of labor. Some of us have been doing this for 20+ years and they ignore advice from those that know what they are doing. Mt.biking seems to have jumped the shark in terms of building challenging trail. Instead its family bike time with Bob & Cindy Cubedonkey.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Mt.Biker E said:


> In CT we have the opposite problem. Nemba for some reason here attracts inexperienced & "average" riders at best that start nemba chapters and then want to build trail with zero experience, or they took a "trail" building" class taught by people that don't know what they are doing. The trail is typically boring and poorly thought out, 4 feet wide in places with benched sections a foot below grade for no reason other than to do it. They even had an excavator training class. No joke!
> The saving grace we have a builder who went "legit" a while ago, so he comes in with us "old" school builders to consult or redo areas with deeps blessing. Nemba is CT is misguided, the promote trail building schools instead of teaching trail maintenance and trail etiquette. I would say 90% of the board members aren't qualified. They have pissed off the local Gnomes who have maintained & built trail networks over the past 20+ years by claiming areas under the Nemba flag. Areas still maintained by the locals. One place they are trying to get a trail put in an area that hunters have under contention and the local gnomes told them it wasn't a good idea and that area was run by the local crew. They then went behind the gnomes back & started the process putting in a trail. Part of the problem is nemba allowed chapter with no central chapter to guide & give approval. It is compounded by the fact the newbies starting these chapters don't have a clue who the og gnomes are & the history behind the trial systems. They just come in and think they now have rights over some ones passion of labor. Some of us have been doing this for 20+ years and they ignore advice from those that know what they are doing. Mt.biking seems to have jumped the shark in terms of building challenging trail. Instead its family bike time with Bob & Cindy Cubedonkey.


Say it isn't so!!!^^^^^^^^👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Say it isn't so!!!^^^^^^^^👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻


Designed their own golf course too,.. couple a college kids taught 'em how one weekend.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

bsieb said:


> Designed their own golf course too,.. couple a college kids taught 'em how one weekend.


😂😂😂


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## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

bsieb said:


> How about successful-rogue-builders-become-successful-advocacy-groups, because that's also a reality, in some cases. You do what works at the time.
> 
> Good on you if you can build successful trails!
> 
> It ain't easy.


Here in Philly, we've seen this at a number of parks/trail systems where the builders of social trails have formed their own advocacy groups and become the effective land managers, or are working with Parks and Rec and their park's friends group to incorporate their trails into the official system. We've also seen the former IMBA Chapter president become a rogue trail builder and has imperiled relationships between the MTB community and the land managers of the largest trail system in the city, through his continued construction of unsustainable and unsanctioned trails. Every year, in addition to our backlog of maintenance, rerouting of trails that have become unsustainable and construction of new trails, we have to undo this self-proclaimed trail builder's vandalism in the park. It gets tiresome.


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## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

leeboh said:


> We use 4x4 PT posts driven into the mud/dirt for the foundation of the stringers and decking. You think pallets will last or be strong enough? Not. Especially for ground contact. Going to mill on site some rot resistant cedar or locust?. Try agin, really. And food and beverage suppled by the club is a nice gesture after giving up 1/2 a day of digging dirt or hauling lumber on the weekend. Saturday I will be doing some local trail walk with my saw and rake, wicked noreaster inbound. I find this time of year is great to check the low spots and clear some drains. Pedal on.


We've had excellent results milling black locust on site for boardwalks and turnpikes.


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Kinda douchey...


Rog, you must have misunderstood my comment. The answer to How deep is a well? and your original post is, of course, "It depends". Lumping all advocacy groups into one bucket is not realistic. NEMBA is vastly different than CAMBA, SORBA and COPMOBA. There are significant differences between the various NEMBA or VMBA chapters. Consider the issues our CT NEMBA friend raises and compare to the amazing work Carrabassett NEMBA and some of the other chapters are doing. Every advocacy group has unique challenges, landowners and people doing the work. In our locale, we deal with a couple different town conservation commissions, NH State Parks and the US Forest Service, as well as The Nature Conservancy, the local land trust and private landowners. Every one has its own nuances.

On many occasions you have raved about the NoCo riding scene - that wouldn't exist without NEMBA.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gigantic said:


> We've had excellent results milling black locust on site for boardwalks and turnpikes.


 Pretty cool. Holding up well? Small portable lumber saw? You need to have the trees and get permission for this to work, both a no go for us.


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## roaringfork (Oct 23, 2014)

Reading through the all the backsplatter, griping, and disagreement on this thread makes me grateful for my situation locally. Our local group advocacy is ~300 members spanning a 40 mile mountain valley. We are well organized, well funded, and have generally positive relationships with local land managers, governments, and land owners. We built 20 miles of new trails last summer and that doesn't include the social trails that were legitimized. We have another full docket for this season. We've successfully brought long time social trail builders happily into the fold. There is little to no disagreement among our board members or general membership. We have several partner organization that help us extend our reach and provide volunteer muscle to get work done. Our trail work days and social events are always well attended. At the end of the day we all want great trails to ride and have the passion, focus, and resources to make it happen.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^^ Nice, where?


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## roaringfork (Oct 23, 2014)

leeboh said:


> ^^^^ Nice, where?


Roaring Fork Mountain Bike Association. Spanning the Roaring Fork Valley from Glenwood Springs to Aspen. Central Colorado on the opposite side of the Elk Mountains from Crested Butte. Lots of big climbs, ripping descents, and stunning scenery.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

radair said:


> The answer to How deep is a well? and your original post is, of course, "It depends". Lumping all advocacy groups into one bucket is not realistic. NEMBA is vastly different than CAMBA, SORBA and COPMOBA. There are significant differences between the various NEMBA or VMBA chapters. Consider the issues our CT NEMBA friend raises and compare to the amazing work Carrabassett NEMBA and some of the other chapters are doing. Every advocacy group has unique challenges, landowners and people doing the work. In our locale, we deal with a couple different town conservation commissions, NH State Parks and the US Forest Service, as well as The Nature Conservancy, the local land trust and private landowners. Every one has its own nuances.
> 
> On many occasions you have raved about the NoCo riding scene - that wouldn't exist without NEMBA.


I wasn't intending to lump all advocacy groups together. I still rave about NoCo. It's still my fave. Even tho red tail was "altered" some. That meadow shoulda been left a nice singletrack. Especially since that new downhill brown road got dozed in the vicinity.

Thank you for all of your hard work and dedication.


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## XJman (Mar 5, 2018)

This is kind of the same argument in the Jeep world. Most of these types of groups go out of their way to maintain trails, the environment, and repair damage cause by the hobby. In some cases they have stepped in and worked with land owners to repair damage caused by dbags and work with them to make trails that don't bother the land owner. 

It's been some years but I've seen land owners buldoze areas because the wheelers are causing damage. One particularly sharp person who's complaint was runoff bulldozed an entire area of woodland and trails to keep people out. Basically causing a larger issue than was originally there. Had the park owner not been up his own butt he would have contacted any number of people who would be willing to help take care of the situation. Instead he kept his tread heavy bushwhack mentality and got a stellar park shut down.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

XJman said:


> It's been some years but I've seen land owners buldoze areas because the wheelers are causing damage. One particularly sharp person who's complaint was runoff bulldozed an entire area of woodland and trails to keep people out. Basically causing a larger issue than was originally there. Had the park owner not been up his own butt he would have contacted any number of people who would be willing to help take care of the situation. Instead he kept his tread heavy bushwhack mentality and got a stellar park shut down.


His land he can do what he wants with it.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

leeboh said:


> ^^^^ Nice, where?


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## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

leeboh said:


> Pretty cool. Holding up well? Small portable lumber saw? You need to have the trees and get permission for this to work, both a no go for us.


we use a briggs & stratton powered portable bandsaw. We have both deadfall to manage in a 2,042 acre park, as well as invasive species management, so there's no shortage of raw material to work with. We also work with a park friends group that has a sizable endowment, as well as both permanent staff and a large volunteer base, so we're relatively fortunate from a permissions standpoint. That said, they're relatively conservative with what we're allowed to build, which means wood features are limited to bridges and boardwalks, which is fine by me, as I generally prefer naturalistic* trails. we built a boardwalk with black locust 3 years ago in an area with poor drainage that's holding up well so far.


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## XJman (Mar 5, 2018)

HacksawReynolds said:


> His land he can do what he wants with it.


Actually no.

Besides building codes and other more urban relatable issues. Some localities will not allow you to clear land without addressing other issues like runoff.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

XJman said:


> Actually no.
> 
> Besides building codes and other more urban relatable issues. Some localities will not allow you to clear land without addressing other issues like runoff.


Well the landowner got what he wanted right?


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## XJman (Mar 5, 2018)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Well the landowner got what he wanted right?


Not likely because he made his complaint situation worse. Much worse.

Last I was out there years ago some of the older neighbors had taken him to court over the issue because what he did caused mud runoff into their fields wiping out crops.

What he got was people not on his property. What he didn't get was the runoff issue resolved his main complaint.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

XJman said:


> Not likely because he made his complaint situation worse. Much worse.
> 
> Last I was out there years ago some of the older neighbors had taken him to court over the issue because what he did caused mud runoff into their fields wiping out crops.
> 
> What he got was people not on his property. What he didn't get was the runoff issue resolved his main complaint.


Ah now I get it. Ya that's no Bueno. Thanx for sharing?


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## XJman (Mar 5, 2018)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Ah now I get it. Ya that's no Bueno. Thanx for sharing


I'm not saying tresspassing is good. But if you are a property owner with tresspassers perhaps contact local clubs to find trail builders and maintainers that can do something that work for the both of you.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

XJman said:


> I'm not saying tresspassing is good. But if you are a property owner with tresspassers perhaps contact local clubs to find trail builders and maintainers that can do something that work for the both of you.


That sounds like a better alternative.

Trespassing happens. If it isn't posted land, is it really trespassing? In my state, "trespassing" is commonplace and the state encourages property owners to allow the public to access and recreate on or across private property. 90+% of the land in my fairly large State (Maine) is privately owned.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

At 1980s - now for being involved with trail advocacy, I have a general feeling (body of knowledge?) that all the unsanctioned trails in my area get noticed by land mangers or another group at some point. Good planning and collaboration has preserved trails being in those places and usually improve them. When not created a new trail opportunity. On the whole not working with land managers has been the worst for riding in my area.


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## TrailYoda (Feb 23, 2009)

DaveVt said:


> "
> This is what failure looks like.
> 
> 
> ...


As an trails club advocate, I see videos that have people enjoying riding in the woods which is a great thing.

As a rider, the trails in the first video don't look like much of destination I would be interested in traveling to ride.

As a builder and an advocate, the trails in the second video have a large number of issues such as: fall-line, non-sustainable grades and sketchy TTF's all of which would be impossible to defend to any municipal, state or federal land manager.

It is alway disappointing to see so many man-hours of trail labor go into something that unfortunately will not be around long term.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I am fine with fun trails that disappear again. I hope each generation gets to experience finding a trail in the woods, because many of us began that way.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

TrailYoda said:


> It is alway disappointing to see so many man-hours of trail labor go into something that unfortunately will not be around long term.


Some last some don't. Rogue builders, most that I know build for themselves. Just themselves. Others input or concerns will never matter.

Trail networks that aren't "destinations" are some the most sustainable. Less tires=less wear and tear. Fall line trails are fine till they're not then you just make the old disappear and create a new. Easy Peasy.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

Another data point: https://durangoherald.com/articles/214352

The article itself has a hefty anit-mountain bike bias, but take a look at the comment section. All sorts of calls for outright bans of mountain bikes from hikers (and even a moto rider), threats of bodily harm, and even a bonus comment from Monica Craver, an anti MTB activist from N Vancouver, BC who is an associate of a woman caught and charged with sabotaging MTB trails.

While I don't agree with the anti mountain bike bias in the article (pretty much reads that only mountain bikers build or use unauthorized trail which is total BS), it's hard to side with the illegal trail builders on this one, given that the primarly land manager in this case is the BLM which has been pretty accomodating to sanctioned mountain bike trail development in numerous states across the west.

From an outside perspective, this looks more like impatience from a group of folks who don't want to go through the process of getting new trail approved, rather than an incompetent, absentee, or un-sympathetic land manager not willing to work with the MTB community.

Would be interested to hear a Durango local's perspective though.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

I’ve been to and ridden Durango. Lovely place with PLENTY of riding already. MTBers are never satisfied with what they have, they always want more more more. Entitled to the max.


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