# No Saint 1kg Carbon Frame



## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

Just noticed new No Saint carbon hardtail on WW board. Price is 599Euro including 19% VAT. For those outside EU, that's only about 500Euro or $700USD, half the price of a Scott Scale and much better looking, IMHO.

Highlights:
17" 992g
19" 1040g
21" 1110g
Killer paint job
IS headset (cheap 70g headsets!)
Downtube cable routing (less cable housing and can easily use road front derailleur)
Standard 31.6mm seatpost and 34.9mm clamp
No-bulge headtube will work with Look Fournales fork (are you reading this, Axis?)
5 year warranty

Unfortunately, no V-brake bosses :sad:

This frame could make me consider disks. The lighter frame, downtube cables, and road front derailleur just about offset the disc weight penalty.

http://212.202.110.172/e-vendo.php?...d7e8c&a=article&ProdNr=A3877&t=1739&p=47&c=47


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*problem...*

problem is Mr. Bornmann, the owner of that "shop": just don't try to ask any questions or service! according to my fellow german weight-weenies he is a real a$$hole.

otherwise this is a real bargain.


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## SnowMongoose (Feb 18, 2007)

holy balls that's light!
almost makes me sad that I'm never going to be light enough to trust a non-road frame this light


anyone know what "Max Ari K" means?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Very nice. Especially that I would need a 17" frame.

Looks nice. I must think about this.... 

I said I would never use a CF frame off road...then again I said I would never wear white shoes!


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

I almost went with a NoSaint Sc frame last year but decided against it due to reports of poor stiffness. At those weights I also wonder about stiffness issues with this frame....I'm just sayin'. For me the lack of V-brake bosses is a deal killer. While you shave a few grams with the downtube cable routing and perhaps a road FD I think you still have a ways to go to get to a V-brake setup weight. But if you gotta have disks then maybe this is a nice option IF it isn't a noodle. Someone needs to buy it and give us a report.


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## knef (Jan 26, 2007)

Exact same frame as Ghost Lector and Fuji carbon frame. But a lot cheaper.
I don't like the paintjob though...


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## caballero (Nov 20, 2004)

any idea if they will ship to Australia ? Ive emailed them, but thought someone on here may have bought from outside the EU.


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

It's probably bettter to call them, so you can confirm price without 19% VAT. They do have at least one guy who speaks English. If they won't ship to OZ, I could receive the frame and forward to OZ, at your expense. But, I may have to pay VAT.

Radsport Bornmann GmbH
Königstor 48
D-34117 Kassel
Tel. +49-561-9200930-0
Fax +49-561-9200930-99


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

speaking o v-brakes, shimano has a new version XT V-brake for 2008 that's claimed to be 152g lighter for a front and rear pair than the previous version. So that'd be a good sign the big-S isn't abandoning v-brakes at the high end for racers.


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

DeeEight said:


> speaking o v-brakes, shimano has a new version XT V-brake for 2008 that's claimed to be 152g lighter for a front and rear pair than the previous version. So that'd be a good sign the big-S isn't abandoning v-brakes at the high end for racers.


It's good to know they're trying, but BR-M760 weighed 500g without levers! If BR-M770 weigh 350g, then they finally weigh the same as the $20 Avids from 10 years ago! :thumbsup:


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## sharpe (Aug 16, 2005)

if you call them, ask for Jens
He is the only one doing a good job in my opinion.
But remember tomorrow is public holiday in Germany :thumbsup:


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

Sharpe, will they ship overseas? A few people have PM'ed me asking for prices.

I want to clarify above offer to help: I am NOT a dealer and don't want to become one. I am only willing to help fellow WW with shipping IF Bornmann will not deal direct. My cost with VAT, 2x shipping, and exchange fees would be about $1000/frame, so I encourage people to try to deal direct.

Tomorrow is German Reunification Day! The day when the grumpy old West Germans complain how much better things were BEFORE the wall came down...


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## sharpe (Aug 16, 2005)

Overseas could be tricky
but to be honest I don´t know!
the don´t even list UK for shipping
better to give them a call
if I would have seen the tread earlier.. I talked to Jens today


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## lycramike (Sep 23, 2005)

Hi, I'm very interested in getting a new, cheaper frame to replace my soon to be sold scale. Does anyone have any links to reviews or usage opinions about this frame? Like Axis II, i'd be interested as long as the low weight doesnt sacrifice too much stiffness. Also, I notice that if I go down the PedalForce route, I'd save about £200 compared to this, but it would be slightly heavier/not as nice. What are your opinions about the PF and hat would you reccommend?


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## Batas (Jan 16, 2004)

Why are you selling your scale frame?


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## smithy (Jun 28, 2006)

Looks good, not sure if I like the downtube cable routing though. Does it not have any guides for the brake hoses either?


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## lycramike (Sep 23, 2005)

I'm selling now so I dont loose too much value on it (its a 2007 scale 10) and hope I can possibly make £100 or so by using a different frame. (Money is useful to me as I've just started Uni). Also, I've come to the conclusion that I've grown out of my M frame as I have to run the post at full length but its still too short...


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## Batas (Jan 16, 2004)

Oh... How tall are you? in meters please... Euro guy here...
I'm 1.82m and find the scale in L size (60cm TT) very nice.


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

I am feeling helpful today, so I called the shop. I confirm Nino's comment that Herr Bornmann is not so friendly. But, Jens was very helpful and speaks good English. Here is what I learned.

Technical:
Headset is NOT included
BB size is BSA 68mm
No V-brake version is planned
Brake hose guides are on left side of top tube (same as Ghost Lector http://www.starbike.com/php/product_info.php?lang=en&pid=8646)
Note about top-pull derailleur is incorrect. Only bottom pull can be used.

Business:
Bornmann has no experience shipping outside EU. If they do ship overseas, they would collect VAT and would later refund it to the buyer when presented with proper paperwork showing that the frame was legally exported.
They only have a few frames in stock, but expect next container in 3-4 weeks.

For disc-brake users in EU, this may be a better deal than Pedal Force. By the time I paid shipping, tax, and duty to get my $500 PF frame to Luxembourg, total cost was about $700, or 500Euro at today's rate.


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

lycramike said:


> I'm selling now so I dont loose too much value on it (its a 2007 scale 10) and hope I can possibly make £100 or so by using a different frame. (Money is useful to me as I've just started Uni). Also, I've come to the conclusion that I've grown out of my M frame as I have to run the post at full length but its still too short...


Scale is a weird bike, so some parts such as front mech, seatpost, and possibly BB and headset won't swap to a different brand. The money you save in swapping frames will be spent replacing these parts, leaving you with no net cash and a heavier, less valuable bike.

Simplest and cheapest fix is to try a 420mm seatpost with shim like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/FSA-FR-270-ATB-...ryZ58101QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
http://www.use1.com/products/seat_post_shims/index.php

If you can't get proper fit with longer seatpost and stem, talk to your shop about swapping to a size L frame. Perhaps they'll feel remorse over selling you an undersized $4000 bike and cut you a deal on a larger frame.


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## lycramike (Sep 23, 2005)

I'm 1.8 m tall, but have proportionally long legs for my height, so sometimes knock my knees on the bars/fork crown when climbing steep hills. Also, this frame was bought new off ebay and came in overweight at 1150g so even if I dont save any money at least I might be able to save some grams!


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## Kitakeng (Oct 29, 2006)

I am also interested, but needs shipment to Japan...

I see that on Deutsche Post's web, they offer DHL Packet international with limit size of below at very reasonable EU38 or so.
That is with insurance and no need of custom clearance.
May be you have to pay import tax, but that is far less than the VAT.
As DP is a postal service, I believe there is no such export document, but just a declaration form that they use. Or they use DHL's online export dox form. And thus once shipment is sent outside the EU, can't the shop reclaim VAT on the spot? 
I am not custom expert, so anyone can help?

Länge (L): von 15 bis 120 cm 
Breite (B): von 11 bis 60 cm 
Höhe (H): bis 60 cm 
Gewicht: bis 20 kg 
Laufzeit: bis 8-12 Tage 
Wert möglich: bis 4048 EUR


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## sharpe (Aug 16, 2005)

I will confirm weight next week for 19 inch frame
mine should arrive in 2-3 days :thumbsup:


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

Kitakeng said:


> I am also interested, but needs shipment to Japan...
> 
> I see that on Deutsche Post's web, they offer DHL Packet international with limit size of below at very reasonable EU38 or so.
> That is with insurance and no need of custom clearance.
> ...


I am no customs expert, but I have some personal experience shipping into and out of Germany. I think your understanding is technically correct. Bornmann can legally reclaim VAT if they ship outside EU. But, they told me that they don't want to do this paperwork. They would prefer that the buyer does the paperwork and send the forms to them later.

That postage rate is very reasonable, but I fear that the box will be over the 60cm limit. For example, my Pedal Force 19in frame was tightly packed in 92x66x18cm box. The 19in frame would not fit in a 60cm tall box. It may be possible to fit 17in frame in a 60cm box, but Bornmann would need to repack it in the smaller box.

It seems that there are several international buyers interested in the frame. I think that once Bornmann figure out the paperwork for one buyer, it will be easy for them to sell frames without VAT. I suggest that all serious buyers should call and ask them for shipping quote. This will let them know that there is a market outside Germany and may encourage them to learn more about international sales.

Sharpe,
I look forward to reading your review. If you're anywhere near Trier, I would love to compare your new bike with my Pedal Force bike.


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## sharpe (Aug 16, 2005)

@EuroMack: sorry I´m a way of Trier about 4 hours drive by car

frame just arrived some hours ago
got a call from my girlfriend but had to stay at work for an eternity 

1017g naked without rear hanger (which is 14g) :thumbsup:


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## JoeDesperado (Feb 5, 2006)

great weight! my simplon gravity weighs 200g more...
glad you chose the black paintjob, as the other one offered is ugly as hell.


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## B_H (Oct 29, 2006)

Great weight :thumbsup: ! Looks good too  

Is it 17" or 19"? And how is the quality of the frame?


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## lycramike (Sep 23, 2005)

Are those silver dots on the top tube brake hose mounts I take it? Please report back on the quality/stiffness. I'm so tempted to get one...


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## lycramike (Sep 23, 2005)

Are those silver dots on the top tube brake hose mounts I take it? Please report back on the quality/stiffness. I'm so tempted to get one...


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## sharpe (Aug 16, 2005)

frame size is 19"
those silver dots are brake hose mount, it has 3 on top tube an one here









it comes with 4 srews and 4 mounting holders

but we have to wait for an other buyer, I will not build up the bike before March 2008


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## knef (Jan 26, 2007)

sharpe said:


> 1017g naked without rear hanger (which is 14g) :thumbsup:


that's damn light :thumbsup: 
i could shed almost 600grams bij converting to this frame


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## lycramike (Sep 23, 2005)

What headset does this take? is it like a scale, so my tune bubu fits?


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## Kitakeng (Oct 29, 2006)

sharpe said:


> @EuroMack: sorry I´m a way of Trier about 4 hours drive by car
> 
> frame just arrived some hours ago
> got a call from my girlfriend but had to stay at work for an eternity
> ...


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## sharpe (Aug 16, 2005)

Bubu fits, I though it comes with internal
but they shipped it with Ritchey WCS press fit

carton is 108x58cm wide not more than 40


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## LAN (Jan 26, 2004)

Could you measure the diameter between the chainstays 18cm behind the BB?

I would like to know if roadcranks will clear the chainstay.

Thanks in advance


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

Apparently, the Ghost Lector uses the same frame, so you can see hi-res pic and geometry details here:
http://www.ghost-bikes.com/2008/typ.php?bid=23

Sharpe,
Can you post a pic of the cable guide under the bottom bracket?


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## sharpe (Aug 16, 2005)

@EuroMack


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks Sharpe. What is that plastic spike part?

Can you post a picture of the guide installed on the bike? I'm thinking about converting my Pedal Force bike to bottom pull derailleur and want to see exactly how the cable is routed.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

With a bit of contrast stretching it's easier to see what all the bits are. The kit looks like a slick way to do downtube cable routing with full length housing as the cable guides look like guides not stops. Does that mean the front derailleur cable housing stops at the long leg on the BB cable guide?


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

The loops are for the brake cables. Here is a bigger picture:
https://www.ghost-bikes.com/2008/image/modelle2008/huge/htxlectorteam.jpg

Downtube shift cables are exposed, just like a road bike. But, I can't figure out what the spike is for.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

The spike looks like it has an allen head.

The cable guides would have the draw back of needing to be slipped over a brake hydro hose. It would be easier to use P clips.


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## taikuodo (Jul 3, 2006)

Is the frame all scratched and banged up or is that just the camera flash?


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

rockyuphill said:


> The spike looks like it has an allen head.
> 
> The cable guides would have the draw back of needing to be slipped over a brake hydro hose. It would be easier to use P clips.


Take a closer look. I think the clips are split, but they aren't spread open in the pics. In any case you could go to Radio Shack or Home Depot and pickup different size and color cable clips for $2.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

taikuodo said:


> Is the frame all scratched and banged up or is that just the camera flash?


That is the flash bringing out the weave in the carbon fiber.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Ha! got you by 1 post EuroMack :ihih: .


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

Update:

I helped a member get a frame and it seems to have gone well. After a little negotiation, Bornmann agreed not to collect VAT and they agreed to ship directly to USA. So, frame plus 5-7 day air shipping was 564Euro, or $812USD today.

They don't take credit cards or PayPal, so you'll also need to pay wire transfer and currency exchange fees. In all, budget about $900 to be safe. Not bad for lightest frame on the market.

The same deal is available to anyone. Just e-mail [email protected] and tell them your name, address, phone number, and order info. Jorg will send you an invoice with total price and bank info for wire transfer.


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## lycramike (Sep 23, 2005)

Sweet, thanks for the info, just need to get shut of the scale...


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## Flo7 (Dec 13, 2007)

What size has the BB? 68 or 73?


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## Rick205 (Jul 6, 2006)

I must say it looks like a very nice frame for the price, does anybody know what the manufacturer/distributor website is?

I cant find it and im interested in these frames.

Thanks, Rick


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## Kitakeng (Oct 29, 2006)

I ordered a 17' black frame to this guy, Jens back in Jan.

He said frames are out of stock, and will be back on stock beg. feb.

Last week and this week, I e-mailed Jens for current status. But no reply...

If I am not mistaken the mail server at Bornmann is rejecting all mails.

Does anyone know what's happening?? How can I get to contact them??

I can't call them since my German is crap and because of the time difference...


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

Kitakeng said:


> I ordered a 17' black frame to this guy, Jens back in Jan.
> 
> He said frames are out of stock, and will be back on stock beg. feb.
> 
> ...


Just call them. They are 6 hours ahead of Eastern US, so it's not so difficult to call them when you wake up in the morning. Everyone there understands enough English to transfer you to Jens, so German language is not a problem.

Remember, this is a small shop, not Performance or Nashbar.


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## Baltazar (Jan 30, 2004)

exactly, Jens english is good enought for you to understand him and good enought to understand you. and the others working there, there wnlish is good enough to put Jens on the phone when you are caling, just ask for Jens


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## Kitakeng (Oct 29, 2006)

Made the call just now with success!!

Sorry I didnt explain... here in Japan is midnight now and I needed to register to make international phone calls.

Anyway, frame is out of stock again. And expect to have it again in two month...

I wonder if I ever get the frame this year...


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## lycramike (Sep 23, 2005)

any ideas if 19" is in stock?


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## Flo7 (Dec 13, 2007)

This is my new NoSaint:


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## lycramike (Sep 23, 2005)

goddam thats nice, I want mine NOW!!


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## Buoyen (Aug 14, 2006)

Did you weight the frame? Nice build!


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## Flo7 (Dec 13, 2007)

Buoyen said:


> Did you weight the frame? Nice build!


the frame weight 1005g in 17"


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## B_H (Oct 29, 2006)

Really nice looking bike you have there :thumbsup: .

I read from the german forum that you're aiming to 8kg, so what components are you planning to use?

And please tell us how the bike behaves with Sid WC up front.


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## Flo7 (Dec 13, 2007)

Here is the list:


Teil Hersteller & Bezeichnung Gewicht
Rahmen: NoSaint MaxAri 17" inkl. Kleinzeug 1013.0
Gabel: Sid Worldcup mit Poploc 1332.0 
Steuersatz: Ritchey WCS Carbon Press Fit 80.0
Ahead-Kappe + Schraube: Ritchey Carbon+Tune GumGum 24.0
Spacer: Alu Superlight 5mm 2.0
Vorbau: Syntace F99 105mm ohne Titanschrauben 104.0
Lenker: Easton EC 90 104.0
Griffe: BBB Tour inkl. Endkappen 18.0
Bar Ends: 0.0
Sattelklemme: Soul Kouzak 8.0
Sattelstütze: AX Lightness Europa 125.0
Sattel: Tune Speedneedle Leder 92.0
Spanner: Control Tech TI Spannachsen 42.0
VR-Nabe: DT-Swiss 240S Cl 28l 647.0
HR-Nabe: DT-Swiss 240S Cl 28l 727.0
Speichen: DT-Swiss Revolution 2.0-1,5 verlötet! 
Nippel: DT-Swiss Alu 2.0 56stk 0.0
Felgen: Notubes Olympic´s 28l 0.0
Felgenband: Notubes Yellow Tape 12.0
Schläuche/Tubelesskit: Notubes Stan´s 2x80ml+ 2 Ventile 174.0
Vorderreifen: Maxxis High Roller 2.1 Excepition 460.0
Hinterreifen: Maxxis Flyweight 2.1 328.0
Innenlager: XX-Light 68x113mm 95.0
Kurbeln: Race Face Next LP 408.0
Kettenblätter: TA Compact+ Action Tec Titan 20Z(14g) 129.0
Kettenblattschrauben: Tiso 14.0
Kurbelschrauben: XX-Light 24.0
Pedale: Egg Beater TI 236.0
Kassette: Dura Ace 180.0
Kette: Dura Ace 7801 ungekürtzt und in verpackung 274.0
Schaltgriffe: Sram 9.0sl Custom inkl. Schaltzüge 182.0
Schaltwerk: Sram X-0 medium 198.0
Umwerfer: Xtr 960er 152.0
Schaltaußenhüllen: Nokon mit Inliner 56.0
Vorderbremse: Hope Mono Mini Pro 160er inkl. Center Lock Adapter 320.0
Hinterbremse: Hope Mono Mini Pro 140er inkl. Center Lock Adapter 320.0
Flaschenhalter: Tune Wasserträger inkl. Schrauben 10.0
Luft: Öl und Fett 30.0
Summe: 7920.0


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## Flo7 (Dec 13, 2007)

HI
Hier kommst nun mein neues sub 8kg Bike.

Teileliste: 
Teil	Hersteller & Bezeichnung	Gewicht
Rahmen:	NoSaint MaxAri 17" inkl. Kleinzeug	1013.0
Gabel:	Sid Worldcup mit Poploc	1325.0
Steuersatz:	Ritchey WCS Carbon Press Fit	92.0
Ahead-Kappe + Schraube:	Ritchey Carbon+Tune GumGum	24.0
Spacer:	Alu Superlight 5mm	2.0
Vorbau:	Syntace F99 105mm ohne Titanschrauben	104.0
Lenker:	Easton EC 90	104.0
Griffe:	BBB Tour inkl. Endkappen	18.0
Sattelklemme:	Soul Kouzak	8.0
Sattelstütze:	AX Lightness Europa	125.0
Sattel:	Tune Speedneedle Leder	92.0
Spanner:	Control Tech TI Spannachsen	42.0
VR-Nabe:	DT-Swiss 240S Cl 28l	647.0
HR-Nabe:	DT-Swiss 240S Cl 28l	727.0
Speichen:	DT-Swiss Revolution 2.0-1,5 verlötet!	
Nippel:	DT-Swiss Alu 2.0 56stk	0.0
Felgen:	Notubes Olympic´s 28l	0.0
Felgenband:	Notubes Yellow Tape	12.0
Schläuche/Tubelesskit:	Notubes Stan´s 2x80ml+ 2 Ventile	174.0
Vorderreifen:	Maxxis High Roller 2.1 Excepition	460.0
Hinterreifen:	Maxxis Flyweight 2.1	328.0
Innenlager:	XX-Light 68x113mm	95.0
Kurbeln:	Race Face Next LP	408.0
Kettenblätter:	TA Compact 44(82g), 30(26g)+ Action Tec Titan 20Z(14g)	124.0
Kettenblattschrauben:	Tiso	14.0
Kurbelschrauben:	XX-Light 24.0
Pedale:	Egg Beater TI	236.0
Kassette:	XTR 11-34 _ Dura Ace kommt ca. 180g	249.0
Kette:	Dura Ace 7801 256.0
Schaltgriffe:	Sram 9.0sl Custom inkl. Schaltzüge	182.0
Schaltwerk:	Sram X-0 medium	198.0
Umwerfer:	Xtr 970er	148.0
Schaltaußenhüllen:	Nokon mit Inliner	30.0
Schaltinnenzüge:	Shimano	0.0
Bremshebel: 0.0
Vorderbremse:	Hope Mono Mini Pro 160er inkl. Center Lock Adapter	320.0
Hinterbremse:	Hope Mono Mini Pro 140er inkl. Center Lock Adapter	320.0
Flaschenhalter:	Tune Wasserträger inkl. Schrauben	10.0
Luft:	Öl und Fett	30.0
Summe: 7941.0

und nun die Fotos:



















Mfg flo


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## DragosXC (Apr 5, 2008)

*hello*

Hello everybody! My name is Dragos and I am new to this forum. 
I am interested in this particular carbon frame as one of my frineds here in Bucharest allready has one 19 inch black. Tha total wieight of the bike is just 6,5 kg using a rigid carbon TOKEN fork! If is anyone interested I will post some pictures and detalis if someone wants more!

I would also like to buy a 17 inch frame from Radsport!

Regards!:thumbsup:


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

Any new news on No Saint? Anybody in the USA picked one up?


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## Megaclocker (Sep 28, 2005)

You don't have any spare next lp like this by any chance. That crank is gorgeous :thumbsup:


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## LAN (Jan 26, 2004)

I have been using the frame for a season now, and I think it's a good frame. Stiff enough, not as stiff as my brothers Rebellion, but not flexy either.

Positives:

-Light, 992g for bare 17" frame
-Downtube cablerouting (you can use road fd)
-68mm bb shell

Negatives:

-The cable routing for the fd behind the bb makes for added friction.
-You can't use Road compact cranksets, because both the arms and the inner 34t chainring hits the chainstay. (this is possible on Giant XTC Composite)
-Not as nice finished as more expensive frames
-Name and decals. I hate the name, and the small pictures of a little devil.

I am currently deciding if I'm keeping the frame for next season, or go for a full custom Ruegamer to match my roadbike.


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## Kerigan (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi

I am new on this forum.

I am french, 34yo and I am a XC rider.

I just bought this frame for 1 month, and not finish to assembly, miss only front gear set and it would be OK

I got a question, cause the owner Boardman did not answer to any emails.

Do you know where can I find rear hanger in spare parts. I want to buy one cause I f I brake mine I prefer have one to replace it immediately.

I am looking at the same time for mounting holders









Thank you for your answer

++


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## Kerigan (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi

I am new on this forum.

I am french, 34yo and I am a XC rider.

I just bought this frame for 1 month, and not finish to assembly, miss only front gear set and it would be OK

I got a question, cause the owner Boardman did not answer to any emails.

Do you know where can I find rear hanger in spare parts. I want to buy one cause I f I brake mine I prefer have one to replace it immediately.

I am looking at the same time for mounting holders









Thank you for your answer

++


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## LAN (Jan 26, 2004)

If you take off the derailleur hanger and take to a bikeshop, they should be able to get it for you. They should have catalogs with 20-30 different dropouts. At least a shop that sells Ghost bikes, like Starbike.com should be able to get them.

Best regards
LAN


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## Szabcsi (Jun 18, 2006)

Thats tasty..... yamyam.... ( only one thing, I prefer much more the Magura Durine SL fork...)


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