# Questioning the whole "max heart rate" thing.



## DennisT (Dec 29, 2019)

So at my age, my max heart rate is supposed to be 156, therefore my ideal training zone should be in the 120-130 range. Problem is, on my rides I regularly way overshoot this. my most recent ride shows me spending over a half hour in the >140 range. So I'm wondering to what extent (as Captain Barbossa says) these be more suggestions than actual rules.

There's a lot of argument about whether you can actually increase your max through fitness, although there's some consensus that the actual numbers vary by individuals.

I guess I'm wondering what opinions and experience members of this forum might have.


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## Chuck Johnson (Aug 5, 2020)

There is no calculation that can accurately say what your "maximum" heart rate should be.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Max heart rates vary, you need to test to find yours.

Also heart rate monitors vary, you need to test them to determine their accuracy.


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## Fairbanks007 (Sep 5, 2009)

There's considerable variation between the age predicted maximal HR for an individual and their true max. The only way to truly know what *your* maximum HR is with a graded exercise test (stress test) where they either wait until you quit because you just can't do anymore, or they stop you because your HR fails to increase with an increasing work load. Anything else is, at best, an imprecise estimation.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> Max heart rates vary, you need to test to find yours.
> 
> Also heart rate monitors vary, you need to test them to determine their accuracy.


This. I am 48 and see 185 once in a while, which is about 13 above predicted. Everyone is different and max rates by age run on a bell curve. Without measuring yours, looking at your rateduring rides tells you little. As others have mentioned, some monitors are more accurate, chest straps being the best.

Are you feeling fine during your rides? That is the most important thing. If you are getting lightheaded or having trouble getting enough air in, you need to slow down and a checkup with your doctor is worth doing. If you are feeling fine, you should be good to go.

Hereis a good quick article about max heartrates.






Ask the Coaches: High Maximum Heart Rate


Q: I am a 55 year old, 6'2", 230 pound, 15 mile a week "runner." I have been running for two years and lost 45 pounds. I wear a heart monitor and at an easy pace - 10 minutes a mile. My heart rate is 165-170 bpm. According to conventional wisdom, this is WAY too fast. I can carry on a...




www.runnersworld.com


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## Clyde Ride (Jun 7, 2019)

The “average” heart rate by age is reasonably accurate but not at all predictive.


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## DennisT (Dec 29, 2019)

There is one spot on my regular route (something like a 12% grade) where I end up panting at the top. I can continue, but I have to take it easy until I get my breath back. That's usually where my HR hits the high 150's. Other than that, it's mostly spikes.

Until I got the chest strap, I wasn't really thinking about it, just pedalling slower when I needed to and faster when I could. Now I'm second-guessing things.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

First things first, hitting your max heart rate is hard and seeking that out comes with a health risk--be warned.

It's probably going to take up to 20 minutes of really hard riding to hit it, or in a race. Try riding up a mountain with a guy you know is faster than you and try to beat him.

Once you top out you'll feel really gassed and your body will make you drop off. Spikes are probably not going to get you there.



DennisT said:


> There is one spot on my regular route (something like a 12% grade) where I end up panting at the top. I can continue, but I have to take it easy until I get my breath back. That's usually where my HR hits the high 150's. Other than that, it's mostly spikes.
> 
> Until I got the chest strap, I wasn't really thinking about it, just pedalling slower when I needed to and faster when I could. Now I'm second-guessing things.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DennisT said:


> So at my age, my max heart rate is supposed to be 156, therefore my ideal training zone should be in the 120-130 range.


Also there's no ideal training zone base on heart rate (or power) Max hr just establishes your different training zones.


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## Clyde Ride (Jun 7, 2019)

DennisT said:


> So at my age, my max heart rate is supposed to be 156, therefore my ideal training zone should be in the 120-130 range. Problem is, on my rides I regularly way overshoot this. my most recent ride shows me spending over a half hour in the >140 range. So I'm wondering to what extent (as Captain Barbossa says) these be more suggestions than actual rules.
> 
> There's a lot of argument about whether you can actually increase your max through fitness, although there's some consensus that the actual numbers vary by individuals.
> 
> I guess I'm wondering what opinions and experience members of this forum might have.


All of the feedback here really underscores something: what's your objective? You can't use a max HR and a mythical target zone in a vacuum. The HR is just a benchmark to establish rough zones for training different cardio capabilities. There isn't a magic target. There are lots of magic targets, and they get used in different ways (different durations, workout types, etc) in order to help people train for specific outcomes. So... what outcome are you seeking? And who are you going to hire as a coach to help you get there? If you're just riding for fun and general fitness, either pitch the HR monitor in the bin, or use it for general curiosity, but focus more on how you feel.


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## fotooutdoors (Jul 8, 2010)

I'll go one further: why are you setting target heart rate zones based on max? Your aerobic and anaerobic thresholds have more significance for the development of adaptations. As others have said, max heart rate depends by individual.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Max rate heart is sorta like a “redline” on a motor, the older the motor, the more likely you will have a failure, so your “redline” goes down with age.

An arrhythmia can occur when the heart loses its ability to sustain a consistent rhythm, leading to fibrillation. Exceeding your maximum heart rate is a good way to have a heart attack.

In theory, a healthy heart in conjunction with training appropriate to the use, will not lead to an elevated heart rate, so you should ask yourself why your heart is beating so fast AND go talk to a medical professional.

Your mileage may vary ... but this is one reason why healthy people have heart attacks.


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## dreednya (Mar 9, 2004)

Think it is simply individual. I'm 57 and I've recorded 220 in the last few months. I thought it was a spike until I saw I had ridden over 3 minutes at between 213 and 220, with HR coming down and going up again as gradient changed. I was completely fresh though and usually can't get above 195-200 when I'm riding a lot due to HR suppression/fatigue. Threshold HR is 175 bpm as tested in a lab. I have also been tested for AFIB a year or so ago as I was also getting HRs down into the low 40s/high 30s when sat about, and the results said I was fine, just really fit


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

I have to stop to lower my heart rate when it goes much above 160. I wore a heart monitor for a few weeks in recent times. My max heart rate while pedaling up steep, sustained climbs was 169. But like others have stated, everyone is different.


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## DennisT (Dec 29, 2019)

Thanks everyone. Sounds pretty much like I was thinking. The 220-age formula is a generalization and shouldn't be followed slavishly. I'm a little surprised at how everyone seems to be saying that your actual max is very hard to get to. That means I'm nowhere near mine, because I've not been putting _that_ much effort into things. I've had enough ECGs to know my heart is healthy, so I guess I can just keep doing what I was doing.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DennisT said:


> Thanks everyone. Sounds pretty much like I was thinking. The 220-age formula is a generalization and shouldn't be followed slavishly. I'm a little surprised at how everyone seems to be saying that your actual max is very hard to get to. That means I'm nowhere near mine, because I've not been putting _that_ much effort into things. I've had enough ECGs to know my heart is healthy, so I guess I can just keep doing what I was doing.


Some years ago, I started riding with a HRM occasionally just for curiosity's sake and I saw my HR hitting well above what the age formula said should be okay. And we're not talking about spikes from iffy data, either. I'd get it up there and it'd stay up there for a bit. The data were real, and coincided with moments on the ride where I felt the hard effort.

Being that I have a health history, I was a bit concerned that this was something I was going to have to pay close attention to, so I visited a cardiologist and had some tests done. Everything was fine, and working as it should. I just happen to be one of those "upper end of the bell curve" people. My HR can vary notably depending on what I'm doing. If I focus on calmness and relaxation (aka if I meditate), I can get it very low. If I'm working hard, I can get it pretty high. Even a light workload that I hardly feel and can sustain all day will set my HR going faster than most at the same workload.


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## DennisT (Dec 29, 2019)

That sounds a lot like me (except for the health history). My HR jumps into the 100-120 range on little effort, but climbs much more slowly as I increase effort from there.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Last time I tested my max HR, I started to black out and nearly collapsed. That is how you test your max heart rate. You push your body past the limits of what your heart is capable until you start to black out, or black out entirely.

Safe to say, that is not very safe. Last time I did that was probably 10 years ago. Now I use lactic threshold (LT), which is way more useful.


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## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

I wouldn't trust the watch/wrist HRMs, my kid has one and it seems to be all over the place. I have a cheap Polar brand with chest strap that seems to work pretty well. I do a high intensity road ride with some fast guys once a week, and it's been interesting to watch the HRM: consistently when I hit 182/183 on the climbs on our regular route, I've got about 20 seconds before I 'blow up' and I can't hold the pace, but I recover pretty quickly (I'm 54 btw). Assuming your heart and other stuff are healthy enough for maximal efforts, it's not too tough to find your upper limit.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

DennisT said:


> So at my age, my max heart rate is supposed to be 156, therefore my ideal training zone should be in the 120-130 range. Problem is, on my rides I regularly way overshoot this. my most recent ride shows me spending over a half hour in the >140 range. So I'm wondering to what extent (as Captain Barbossa says) these be more suggestions than actual rules.
> 
> There's a lot of argument about whether you can actually increase your max through fitness, although there's some consensus that the actual numbers vary by individuals.
> 
> I guess I'm wondering what opinions and experience members of this forum might have.


I


DennisT said:


> So at my age, my max heart rate is supposed to be 156, therefore my ideal training zone should be in the 120-130 range. Problem is, on my rides I regularly way overshoot this. my most recent ride shows me spending over a half hour in the >140 range. So I'm wondering to what extent (as Captain Barbossa says) these be more suggestions than actual rules.
> 
> There's a lot of argument about whether you can actually increase your max through fitness, although there's some consensus that the actual numbers vary by individuals.
> 
> I guess I'm wondering what opinions and experience members of this forum might have.


Since you asked for opinions, my opinion is I don't want yet another metric to track. If my heart is beating at the start of a ride and still beating when I finish and I cover, maybe, 15 miles and climb 1500 feet and am not out of breath, I'm fine with my heart rate.

I'm more anal in tracking my weight and BP every morning. My BP remains about what it was 50 years ago (120/71 this morning) and my weight is constant and within bounds for my height so I'm happy. I turn 72 in a few days.

That works for me and my doctor is always satisfied with my health when I have my annual physical. If I drop dead tomorrow, at least I will die healthy.


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## PTCbiker (Sep 15, 2020)

I agree with the others, just like a simple chart won't give a real Body Mass Index, you can't figure out your training zones off a chart either. And I'm not sure how accurate our HR devices are, I do get the feeling the HR strap is more accurate than a device that measures off the wrist.

I'm 53, in reasonable shape and my HR doesn't correlate with the 220 minus age theory. My casual pace running HR is routinely 160 and the final mile of a 5k will routinely kiss 200. I know I had a good ride when my HR is up around 180 for 20 minutes and peaks at 195. Conversely my resting heart rate is as low as 45. I was hiking out of Bryce Canyon in Utah last weekend and that was 800ft straight up via switchbacks. My HR would get up to 160, I'd rest with the gf and it would get under 100 within 60 seconds.

Ultimately my advice is don't worry too much about HR unless you have a known issue you need to monitor.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Many great posts before mine, probably a few after too.

I have been monitoring my HR for years. I have read hundreds of words about the topic.

I gather that those training to compete (example being triathlete) fine tune HR zones the most.

I have tried exercising in a zone and find that zone workouts can be beneficial but vary depending on how rested your heart is (as we know, the heart is indeed a muscular organ).

Many HR devices have fitness tests. The resulting numbers being what that manufacturer generically thinks is best for you. There are the math formulas too. I am never doing what a HR manufacturer says and my Doc has not indicated any heart degradation ever. I use the formulas as a ballpark estimate.

Chest straps are probably the best sensors.. I am a Polar device user for years.

So what is my bottom line? I use HR to verify if I feel, yes feel on that day, to let me know if I am overdoing and need to back off. I only have a too low for me HR while walking..


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## 63expert (Jun 4, 2020)

I started this same thread a few months back. I’m 57 and regularly see 172+ during max efforts. It’s a very individual thing.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

There are numerous threads on this topic.
If you want to train in an HR zone, determine YOUR max HR (mine is lower now - about 189 at age 69 - but at age 60 it was 201 as measured during a stress echocardiogram - my HR strap was within 2 or 3 of that) and then use %'s according to your program. "Average" is meaningless for your purpose.


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## PTCbiker (Sep 15, 2020)

Is there a way to get a max Hr without doing it professionally? I do have a chest strap that I assume is accurate.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

PTCbiker said:


> Is there a way to get a max Hr without doing it professionally? I do have a chest strap that I assume is accurate.


Go till you can't go any harder. Note your heart rate.

I had two HRM's that were within a couple of % of what the Echo had.


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## Offspring (Jan 29, 2006)

I found this interesting. Supports staying in zone 2 for effective training. This is what I tend to naturally do, backed up by monitoring.









Zone 2 Heart Rate Training For Longevity and Performance


Whether you are optimizing your exercise regimen for performance, or to live longer, Zone 2 heart rate training deserves your attention. This article will concentrate on the importance of Zone 2…




www.howardluksmd.com


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Jim Fixx method. Zone 2 training. Worked, still works for me. Running and bicycling.
{below is from an article on the net]
It becomes apparent in the light of these reports that, while exercise, including running, is an important part of a healthy lifestyle, it does not prevent, halt, or ‘wash out’ coronary arteriosclerosis to a significant degree.” Neither, McQuillen wrote, did the opposite hold: “Finally, running did not cause the death of Jim Fixx . . . severe and silent coronary arteriosclerosis did.”

NOTE: Jim did not see a Doctor. Unsaid, but common sense: See a physician or have a good working relationshipship in his office before or during exercise.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

There's some cardiology specialists in here!


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Offspring said:


> I found this interesting. Supports staying in zone 2 for effective training. This is what I tend to naturally do, backed up by monitoring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And if you read "Fast after 50", you'll find intervals are highly recommended.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

NordieBoy said:


> Fast after 50


Thanks for posting this title.

-read Joe's synopsis of the book. I imagine this is one of the better books out there.
All about me: My racing and competing drive is gone; I am shifting into being older yet still "in the game" on a low key basis; my ride recovery time is much longer; I may be able to push but I fear an injury that would sit me down; down time would ruin my psyche.

BTW, I already work some climbs into my routes, those would be my intervals if you will, and they are very beneficial.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

*Member has removed content due to fundamental disagreement with this site owner's views favoring expanded access for electric mountain bikes (eMtb) on multiuse singletrack in public lands.*


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

EKram said:


> BTW, I already work some climbs into my routes, those would be my intervals if you will, and they are very beneficial.


I call them "natural intervals", sounds better than "fartleks".
With a good bit of zone 2 after each one, they really work well.


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## Clyde Ride (Jun 7, 2019)

NordieBoy said:


> I call them "natural intervals", sounds better than "fartleks".
> With a good bit of zone 2 after each one, they really work well.


They work better if you call them fartleks.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Clyde Ride said:


> They work better if you call them fartleks.


Or farts for short...


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## tjkm (Jun 9, 2007)

I am 50 and can routinely get in to the upper 170's on hard efforts on the bike or when trail running. Resting HR is upper 40's to low 50's normally. I hit 194 a few weeks ago on a climb where I really worked hard on a tech section, and felt light headed when I reached the top for a few seconds, but was back down in the 120's about a minute or two later. I find it much easier to ride 'fast' at a zone 2 HR vs running, where I am running 10 minute pace and feel slow.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

52 yo.
Low to mid 170's on hard climbs.
LTHR 164 (have averaged 165 for a 6-hr XC @50yo).
Resting HR 38-42.
Max about 180.


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## TwoWheelExplorer (Jul 13, 2017)

I take the beta blocker propranolol, partly to ward off incipient high blood pressure, and partly to deal with chronic migraine. The result of this med for me is an artificial lowering of my max heart rate. I’m 52 and fat, but on the heaviest climb I still max out at around 130 BPM, occasionally spikong to 135. Never more.

Given that, how do zones work? Because I know that my capacity is beyond 130, but a governor is throttling the rates.

Strava seems to think I’m always in zone two with the info my chest strap provides and previous max estimates, but that zone 2 comes woth a LOT of heavy breathing


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## Offspring (Jan 29, 2006)

TwoWheelExplorer said:


> I take the beta blocker propranolol, partly to ward off incipient high blood pressure, and partly to deal with chronic migraine. The result of this med for me is an artificial lowering of my max heart rate. I'm 52 and fat, but on the heaviest climb I still max out at around 130 BPM, occasionally spikong to 135. Never more.
> 
> Given that, how do zones work? Because I know that my capacity is beyond 130, but a governor is throttling the rates.
> 
> Strava seems to think I'm always in zone two with the info my chest strap provides and previous max estimates, but that zone 2 comes woth a LOT of heavy breathing


I also take a beta blocker that my old dr prescribed years ago, before his license got tossed for his weird examinations to some female patients. Looking back the flow of drug reps bearing gifts during each visit was strange to watch and listen to. Anyway, my new dr said he didn't like beta's but since it seemed to be working he'd leave well enough alone. Since I first started taking it I immediately noticed the same thing, I was taking a rev limiter and I never really liked it. After getting back on the bike a little over a year ago and logging over 2k miles, I'm ready to talk to my dr about somehow eliminating the beta from my routine. One work around I've used for about 6 months is to take my vitamins and one other rx as usual, first thing in the AM. Then I go for my 18 mile xc ride then take the beta when I'm done. By doing this I can raise my hr by about 10 bpm on the same ride as when I was taking it prior to rides. I'm 61 and with beta my max effort on my rides was about 145, like clockwork, after reviewing data post ride-never during. By switching to taking it after the ride I have reached 161 with similar effort, and it felt way better. It feels much more natural to me, at least until I can stop taking it. PS my life has changed regarding stressors that led to me taking it in the first place, so hopefully I can put it behind me.

As far as zones, I use garmin and I can manually go in and make adjustments to the zones, after it initiated them when I set up my unit. I only made very minor changes and now I can't even remember where I made the change.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

TwoWheelExplorer said:


> I take the beta blocker propranolol, partly to ward off incipient high blood pressure, and partly to deal with chronic migraine. The result of this med for me is an artificial lowering of my max heart rate. I'm 52 and fat, but on the heaviest climb I still max out at around 130 BPM, occasionally spikong to 135. Never more.
> 
> Given that, how do zones work? Because I know that my capacity is beyond 130, but a governor is throttling the rates.
> 
> Strava seems to think I'm always in zone two with the info my chest strap provides and previous max estimates, but that zone 2 comes woth a LOT of heavy breathing


myWorkouts is a decent free HR app that might track zones better. HR zones might lose significance when your max is restricted by medication, though. I'd discuss it with my doctor. Hopefully he/she is well versed in you, your max HR, your zones, and how those issues are affected by your medication and fitness. My sense is that, if you are breathing hard, you're not in zone 2.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Even though a beta blocker will lower your max and average heart rate, it will not affect your performance.
I use nebivolol. 

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

@Offspring

I submit: examine your food/liquid intake.

I have had good results with 1 1/2 meals a day-no snacks and reduced portion size; 18 hours or more from dinner to lunch the next day. This took months to achieve. Have met a few others doing the same.

I am addicted to&#8230;Sugar. I have scaled way back on any form of sugar intake. And No, I do not have a blood sugar prob.-just avoiding it and insulin resistance.

My Doc is happy. He refuses to take me off BP med. I self monitor. I suspect, maybe even my unfounded opinion, and he will never say it, it is the health care system policy that employs him which he has to conform to. He is a great health resource regardless. Maybe you can lose the blocker med. Your guy is not into the med anyway.

Cheers.


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## Offspring (Jan 29, 2006)

EKram said:


> @Offspring
> 
> I submit: examine your food/liquid intake.
> 
> ...


I didn't mention it, but that has been a big part of my last year as well, good info. Chocolate is my downfall.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

*Member has removed content due to fundamental disagreement with this site owner's views favoring expanded access for electric mountain bikes (eMtb) on multiuse singletrack in public lands.*


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Don't try and find, and don't try and use Max HR. Find your threshold HR.









Training zones explained: how to use heart rate and power zones to fast-track your training


Everything you need to know about setting and using training zones




www.bikeradar.com


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I can't see how this is logically possible: by definition, unchanged athletic performance despite lowered heart functions would be a huge performance "enhancement", right? Yet beta blockers are banned by sport ant-doping organizations for one specific reason only- they reduce muscle tremors and benefit shooting sports. As per the WADA:
> 
> 1.Sports in which beta-blockers are prohibited
> Beta-blockers are prohibited only in the following sports:
> ...


It's possible to maintain the performance because the heart pumps a higher volume with each stroke.

But sorry, didn't realize we have doctors on this forum

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

rod9301 said:


> It's possible to maintain the performance because the heart pumps a higher volume with each stroke.
> 
> But sorry, didn't realize we have doctors on this forum


OK, so....beta blockers make the heart stronger too?

F*#k! I've been missing out all this time!


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

rod9301 said:


> It's possible to maintain the performance because the heart pumps a higher volume with each stroke.
> 
> But sorry, didn't realize we have doctors on this forum
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


I don't know anything about beta blockers, but according to this:








how do beta-blockers increase cardiac output? | HealthTap Online Doctor


Dr. Francis Uricchio answered: "They don't: Cardiac output is the product of heart rate and stroke volume. Beta blockers decrease he..."




www.healthtap.com





Beta blockers decrease both heart rate and the strength of the contraction.


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## Spec44 (Aug 17, 2013)

Sidewalk is right, don't base HR zones off max heart rate. Everybody is different, do a 30 minute LTHR test on a rested day. I take Metoprolol (beta blocker) for a high resting heart rate. It makes me have a low blood pressure, so I have to be careful of that. Heart rate wise, though, The max I see a couple times every year (on steep, longer hills is fairly consistent with 220-age, so right about 170, but I wouldn't rely on the formula. My LTHR per the test was 154 a couple years ago, so that's where zone 5 starts, and I can attest that it does. I tend to be underhydrated, because I sweat a lot, and in our Florida heat I start to feel the lactate buildup burn in my quads at 155 bpm quite often...almost too convenient. So my zones do seem pretty consistent with what a non-beta blocker person would see.

However, what seems to be my issue is that my heart rate rises fast and it stays up there. It's really hard for me to not ride in Zone 4 or 5. I'll take a 3 hour ride and spend 1.5 hrs in z4 and 45 minutes in Z5 on a relatively flat but pretty sandy forest road ride. And I can't seem to get faster, despite some shorter punchier rides every week. Average 10 mph all year long. Been doing this for 5 years now, no real change...1500-2000 miles a year. The guys I ride with keep getting faster, and I can't keep up anymore (I actually ride more hours than them because of my once a week long ride), feels like overtraining to me and maybe it's because I spend such a high percentage of my time in Z4 and Z5.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Spec44 said:


> However, what seems to be my issue is that my heart rate rises fast and it stays up there. It's really hard for me to not ride in Zone 4 or 5. I'll take a 3 hour ride and spend 1.5 hrs in z4 and 45 minutes in Z5 on a relatively flat but pretty sandy forest road ride. And I can't seem to get faster, despite some shorter punchier rides every week. Average 10 mph all year long. Been doing this for 5 years now, no real change...1500-2000 miles a year. The guys I ride with keep getting faster, and I can't keep up anymore (I actually ride more hours than them because of my once a week long ride), feels like overtraining to me and maybe it's because I spend such a high percentage of my time in Z4 and Z5.


Assuming your heart rate zones are right that's way too much time in z-4,5. I've been following a structured plan for awhile and if my hr data can be believed I'm only in z-4 & 5 about 15% of the time.


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## Spec44 (Aug 17, 2013)

I know, and I under eat while riding which doesn't help (but I'm getting better at it). Heat/humidity obviously add to that, too. If I could regulate it I might find I'm in really good shape. I had some luck doing short HIIT work last fall, so I think I'm going to try to stick with shorter rides this summer. I have a 32mi rail trail I can keep in z2 and z3 on, I'll throw in once every couple weeks

I'm taking the BB because of a high resting heart rate, there could be some anomaly. And I had them cut my dosage in half a couple years ago because I was having low blood pressure issues (light-headed getting out of bed in the morning and at the tops of hills).

Anyway, not to derail, an internal medicine MD I ride with agrees that the beta blocker could be influencing my zones. I have an electrophysiologist appt in a couple weeks, maybe he'll have something new to add.


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## Offspring (Jan 29, 2006)

Offspring said:


> I also take a beta blocker that my old dr prescribed years ago, before his license got tossed for his weird examinations to some female patients. Looking back the flow of drug reps bearing gifts during each visit was strange to watch and listen to. Anyway, my new dr said he didn't like beta's but since it seemed to be working he'd leave well enough alone. Since I first started taking it I immediately noticed the same thing, I was taking a rev limiter and I never really liked it. After getting back on the bike a little over a year ago and logging over 2k miles, I'm ready to talk to my dr about somehow eliminating the beta from my routine. One work around I've used for about 6 months is to take my vitamins and one other rx as usual, first thing in the AM. Then I go for my 18 mile xc ride then take the beta when I'm done. By doing this I can raise my hr by about 10 bpm on the same ride as when I was taking it prior to rides. I'm 61 and with beta my max effort on my rides was about 145, like clockwork, after reviewing data post ride-never during. By switching to taking it after the ride I have reached 161 with similar effort, and it felt way better. It feels much more natural to me, at least until I can stop taking it. PS my life has changed regarding stressors that led to me taking it in the first place, so hopefully I can put it behind me.
> 
> As far as zones, I use garmin and I can manually go in and make adjustments to the zones, after it initiated them when I set up my unit. I only made very minor changes and now I can't even remember where I made the change.


Last week at my physical I brought this up with my DR and we made the switch over to a ace inhibitor. After two rides, and four days I can say I like it far better so far. I am monitoring my bp through out the day and will take that data in on a 2-week check up.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

Needs to be said: all those max hr equations you’ll find on internet and medical journals are fits to data, they give you the population average max hr for each age.

Absolutely incorrect to use the equation to determine any individual max.

For hr training and zones I still gather hr data but only use my breath to set level. Found my training hr varies too much based on fatigue,diet and the current temp. You’re breathing rate tells you exactly where you are all the time.


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

I don’t have any kind of heart rate monitor for exercise. However I rode/hike biked 12.5 miles today. Worst trail I’ve ever been on. Pretty much un rideable for half of it due to logs on the trails and hills that couldn’t be climbed by anyone.

2 hours later I’m home and can’t rest. So I had my wife grab a digital blood pressure cuff. My heart rate was still 108. My blood pressure was 108 over 73. I’ve a.ways had a hummingbird heart rate. It always has been higher when getting back in shape and then starts to recover faster as I progress forward. Why would the blood pressure be fine, but the heart rate hasn’t recovered after two hours?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BujiBiker said:


> . Why would the blood pressure be fine, but the heart rate hasn't recovered after two hours?


I don't know but it seems a bit concerning. What's your normal resting hr?


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

BujiBiker said:


> 2 hours later I'm home and can't rest. So I had my wife grab a digital blood pressure cuff. My heart rate was still 108. My blood pressure was 108 over 73. I've a.ways had a hummingbird heart rate. It always has been higher when getting back in shape and then starts to recover faster as I progress forward. Why would the blood pressure be fine, but the heart rate hasn't recovered after two hours?


This is pure speculation. I'm not a doctor and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Select last night. But, if you worked out really hard, in the heat, and you got dehydrated, it could explain the low/normal BP with an elevated HR. Being low on fluids (hypovolemia) will lower your BP and concurrently could cause a higher HR.


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

About 65-70 when I wake up. I’ve had occur since around 16 when I first got back into mountain biking. Lose fitness over the winter, claw it back over the summer, repeat. Between knee surgery two years ago and 2 abnormally wet years, our trails have been closed more than open. So fitness definitely suffered. Add COVID and that closed the gyms. When I could ride 3-4 days a week, I’d be fine in a month. With it being wet again, this hasn’t happened.


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

It was 78* today. 70 ish percent humidity. Great weather for Ohio! Drank 2L of water during the ride. Drank a quart of Gatorade 2 hours before the ride. Another quart of water on the way home. Sweated almost all of it out. Normal Ohio summer acclimation.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

Not a doctor either. Ive had a high flittery heart rate too when i do a long hard ride in the heat, but maybe 80, not 170. Maybe have an ekg done the next time it happens?









High prevalence of right ventricular involvement in endurance athletes with ventricular arrhythmias. Role of an electrophysiologic study in risk stratification - PubMed


Complex ventricular arrhythmias do not necessarily represent a benign finding in endurance athletes. An electrophysiological study is indicated for risk evaluation, both by defining inducibility and identifying the arrhythmogenic mechanism. Endurance athletes with arrhythmias have a high...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

As any in video, the title MAY not fit or cause a reaction but as you watch, *great information *is revealed. That is true with this one. See a Doc if your condition persists.

Cheers


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

Took my heart rate when I woke up. 57 beats per minute, normal. Blood pressure was 108 over 63. Again, normal. I’ll take the cuff with me tomorrow and see what I get before and after the ride and then again when I get home.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

BujiBiker said:


> Took my heart rate when I woke up. 57 beats per minute, normal. Blood pressure was 108 over 63. Again, normal. I'll take the cuff with me tomorrow and see what I get before and after the ride and then again when I get home.


Weigh yourself before and after to see if there's an indication of dehydration.


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

I’ll see if I can find the the scale.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

BujiBiker said:


> I'll see if I can find the the scale.


May not apply to you. Here in Utah, I've been on multi-hour rides where I drank around 100oz of water and came back, down 3 pounds or so. Usually, I show the symptoms you describe until I hydrate back up, but I'm used to it now.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

My body takes awhile to settle after exercise. One might take some readings, write them down including the time taken, to get to know your individual stuff and have some historical data.

Lots of great preceding posts, so one might make note of other details. Ex. intensity, hydration, outside conditions you exerted yourself in etc. Notes will be great for you or a doctor’s edification if needed.

Cheers.


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

Forgot the cuff for the ride. Couldn’t find the scale. I know I’m fat! However, rode 6 miles today. Came home after an hour drive and was 75 beats a minute. Blood pressure was 105 over 76. That was more like it. Wasn’t winded or fatigued other than the leg muscles from the previous ride. Only difference was the length of the ride was “half” the distance of the other day. Maybe pushing the bike was pushing me too much? It was hotter today , with more humidity too.


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## DennisT (Dec 29, 2019)

So I want to update this thread with a bit of info. As mentioned early in, my max heart rate according to the 220-age formula should be 156, and the Garmin analyzed my rides based on that. But it turns out that Garmin has a thing where the computer will adjust your zones based on your ongoing performance. As I've gotten in better shape, the app has adjusted my max heart rate up to about 178, and my zone 5 starts at 160. Just as well, I'm regularly going over 156 these days.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

I just switched from Polar Flow to Garmin Connect. I replaced my discontinued/failing battery Polar M460 for a Garmin Edge 130.

Yes, I like the 130 and Connect.

The Connect training plans too aggressive for me. I modify my training and by using a custom workout.
I am a supporter of the article below from Offspring in post #27. Lengthy but pertinent article.

*Zone 2 Heart Rate Training For Longevity and Performance*
Whether you are optimizing your exercise regimen for performance, or to live longer, Zone 2 heart rate training deserves your attention. This article will concentrate on the importance of Zone 2&#8230;







www.howardluksmd.com


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

I finally figured out why my heart rate was high and wouldn’t come down. Monster freakin’ Energy drink. I drank one (and the only one ever) that morning instead Mountain Dew. Haven’t had any issues, riding in hotter, more humid weather than that day. That’s insane, but it’s the only difference in riding all summer. You can keep that crap!


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## Tommybees (Dec 25, 2014)

It has always seemed to me that MTB riding is the ultimate HIT training (at least in my area) since you go up then go down an then rinse and repeat. And so is there really any validity to zone training in this case and how does normal training regimes fit with typical trails where you punch up a 20° slope for a min , get to the top and coast down to the next steep or flat and do some combination again? Ok so a long sustained climb is a different story, and in that case, there is controlled and sustained effort, but even then you get to top at some point and go down the other side.

I guess on a road bike or running or rowing or maybe gravel riding, whatever, zone training makes way more sense since time at zone is much more measured. 

Anyway, my bet for general MTB ridings is that most people don't have to be told when they are about to blow a gasket. Getting a stress test is probably useful to just sort of confirms that you now know where you better not rev any harder. On the other hand maybe we should should relax a bit on the bike and have more fun?

BTW - Im not a doc or trainer, just some shower thoughts.....


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Tommybees,

Bikes love to abuse humans. They find it entertaining to see just what it takes to blow one up. They plot, they contemplate what might just make ya throw a rod or loose a head gasket. With that said, people do the same to find out just what their bike will take before frame failure!

Frankly, your first paragraph sums up some of what one of my local haunts has to offer which, is perfect for a pithy, one speed automatic bike! Punchy climbs, curves descents and some level ground, all mixed to give a great training that doesn't make it feel like training cause that would be a chore on par with cleaning up the dog **** in the back yard!


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

I once won a meeting with a sports nutritionist, she gave me some sports bars and diet advice but by far the best thing about the meeting is that she recommended: "Advanced Sports Nutrition" by Benardot. Book goes through the various processes your body uses to power your muscles, with eye on the role of food in athletics.

The book really helped me understand the various processes that we use to make power, and it helped build a really comfortable intuition about my different sorts of fatigue and why performance is talked about in terms of this particular set of zones.



DennisT said:


> So I want to update this thread with a bit of info. As mentioned early in, my max heart rate according to the 220-age formula should be 156, and the Garmin analyzed my rides based on that. But it turns out that Garmin has a thing where the computer will adjust your zones based on your ongoing performance. As I've gotten in better shape, the app has adjusted my max heart rate up to about 178, and my zone 5 starts at 160. Just as well, I'm regularly going over 156 these days.


That is super cool! Is the first time I've heard of any corporation adjusting zones instead of using an equation. Auto adjust is super rad.

One thing I find is that as I become more trained it becomes much much more painful to reach my highest heart rate (190-195), a few years ago I don't think I could get it above 185, my whole body would hurt so bad. Now I've been slacking a few years I can drive it high with a single 60 second hill sprint. I have a high heart rate so see ~155 average for a 90 minute ride. Resting pulse is 63 or so and low blood pressure, its just who I am.

I'll say again I really think breath is the best way to set zones. I just searched and found someone who agrees, she gives a great explanation of how to set levels.









How to Find Your Aerobic Threshold With an Easy DIY Lactate Test — Miss Adventure Pants


You don't need a blood lactate test to find your heart rate zones. Here's a simple field test to help you estimate your aerobic threshold.




missadventurepants.com




.

Cheers!


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## gedw (Jan 14, 2017)

55 yrs old, i do a climb sometimes and watch the hr on the computer trying to get a personal best, its maxed out at 179 but i would see stars, sometimes fall off the bike, but i liked the challenge. Pretty stupid at times i guess


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

I hit max HR once as well. Once. I did not have any electronic means to say what that number was.
Crashed climbing a huge hill-sat until I could talk (to myself). Got up, cleaned up where the chainring cut my leg, rode another 40 minutes home. No issues other than the resolve to not “do that again”.

I have since climbed that same hill, pausing when my HR gets too high (I watch my HR on my Garmin), recovering and moving on. Not trying for a record-let’s call it HITT.

I know my body well enough that I can get away with pushing it to the limit.-probably causes others to have anxiety.


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## Tommybees (Dec 25, 2014)

@eri - Thanks for the tip on the Nutrition book, will definitely look it up.

It sure seems most people know the difference between seeing stars, nearly puking and or just sucking just a little much wind vs pushing to a number on a screen.....and those are probably a better predictors of MHR for that particular day, heat, hydration etc. vs a monotonic number that somebody measured or calculated on a differnent day and time. Training thresholds are a whole different can of worms.

Riding on.....


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

DennisT said:


> So I want to update this thread with a bit of info. As mentioned early in, my max heart rate according to the 220-age formula should be 156, and the Garmin analyzed my rides based on that. But it turns out that Garmin has a thing where the computer will adjust your zones based on your ongoing performance. As I've gotten in better shape, the app has adjusted my max heart rate up to about 178, and my zone 5 starts at 160. Just as well, I'm regularly going over 156 these days.


As has been noted repeatedly in this thread, the 220-age formula is a really poor method of determining your actual max. HR. By that formula, my max. should be 167. At 53yo, I can do sustained efforts (long climbs, for example) very comfortably at 167-170. My current max. is 189, which I will see after all-out max. efforts. In my prime (early-30s), my max. was 207. This doesn't mean I am/was better or worse than anyone, only that my body is wired for a high HR.


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## oldcolonial (Aug 28, 2018)

Fairbanks007 said:


> There's considerable variation between the age predicted maximal HR for an individual and their true max. The only way to truly know what *your* maximum HR is with a graded exercise test (stress test) where they either wait until you quit because you just can't do anymore, or they stop you because your HR fails to increase with an increasing work load. Anything else is, at best, an imprecise estimation.


Also, note that max heart rates are activity specific. So for instance, a running based test will not tell you what your cycling max heart rate is.


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## Fairbanks007 (Sep 5, 2009)

oldcolonial said:


> Also, note that max heart rates are activity specific. So for instance, a running based test will not tell you what your cycling max heart rate is.


True 'dat.

Even with elite athletes we generally get the highest values for HR (peak) and VO2 (peak) using a treadmill protocol, but that might not help you design a cycling training program very much.


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