# Who has bought an ebike specifically to replace shuttling?



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Ok lads, 

For you who are descent orientated. 
Who has bought an e-bike to avoid shuttling?

What is your experience? 
Do you still shuttle? 
Has the e reduced your descending fun in any way?

PS I'm not interested in the pedal festers opinions in the thread. Just the descent-orientated dudes who want to smash as many descents in a ride as they can and will take a shuttle any day if its on offer.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

I'll say that my DH skills are the best they have ever been. I'm also going on epic back country rides I could never do before.
I'll still shuttle or take a chair lift if it's what the group is doing.

Fun is at an all time high and I can have things like inserts and DH sticky tires. Over the bike is basically a DH with zero compromises on climbing. 

I'm also stronger then ive been in years from the effort of DH riding.

Legs are starting to come back ,but health problems still plague me a little so no were near my peak.


----------



## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

My jump skills have vastly improved as can hit them several times a ride instead of of once. It took me a couple rides to get used to the weight but once I did the heavier emtb give a lot of confidence especially with 170 f and 160 r travel. I can hit 3' drops bunnyhop off rocks etc just take some extra upper body strength. 

It is the best fun I have ever had on a bike.


----------



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Dammit.


----------



## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

plummet said:


> Dammit.


I wasn't even considering one till I talked to some guys on the trail and trailhead. I just back into biking last year after 20 plus years off. I like to ride downhills but my last bike was a 26" GT Zaskar with 71 degree head tube, v brakes and 50 mm fork. Still love to go fast and jump but that bike limited me. 

I now have a ripmo af and love it, handles the downhills like a champ and can climb for a bigger travel trail bike. I hit 3' drops and have some downhill bike only enduro type trails but the gatekeeper is a huge 1750 ft climb and one that could only do once a week as my knee bothers me after a couple days on the mtb. 

So fast forward to June this year, ran into a guy I watch on youtube and some trail maintence bike shop guys building a new jump line, everyone had an emtb. After talking to them and hearing how they hit stuff 4 or 5 times on a ride which was what I do in a month, once a week and I was sold. It is so much fun and still can be a workout depending on how much assistance you use. 

I have this one Reign E+ 2 (2022) | Enduro bike | Giant Bicycles US super plush on big hits with the maestro suspension never bottoms out as it gets more progressive through its travel. 

It will change your life!


----------



## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

I have a Intense Tazer MX that I love! I haven’t been to any downhill parks that provide lift service,but I live 10 minutes from Kanuga bike park that is a self shuttle. I can get 3x more laps on my ebike over my Ripmo AF. My downhill skills are better than my fitness! Lol I’m in the market now for a bike with more travel and larger battery.


----------



## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

plummet said:


> What is your experience?


Similar to others so far in this thread. I definitely noticed my descending skills got better. Not sure it's from more miles, I think it's more that riding a 50-lb pig of an e-bike requires a lot more decisive rider inputs, and as a result I'm much more deliberate in my movements, if that makes sense. When I get on the regular bike I'm way less a passenger and much more dynamic in my body positioning.



plummet said:


> Do you still shuttle?


Yup! The e-bike is the solitary shuttle ride and it's brilliant. But there's something about the whole dynamic of the shuttle run with some buds that I love, it's not just the "not pedaling to the top" bit, it's the whole experience. Just finished a great run with a buddy where brought portable gas grills and coolers in the trucks and finished the ride with some steaks and beers watching the sunset in the mountains. Even though we both have e-bikes, this was better.



plummet said:


> Has the e reduced your descending fun in any way?


Not in the slightest, it's just different. If given the choice, I'll take a ride to the top and a 32-lb enduro rig any day, no question. But the e-bike is also a great experience, just a bit different. It can also open up some routes that you'd never think of shuttling (like because there's a bunch of XC-ish pedaling in the middle of them).

TL;DR: Don't expect an e-bike to replace shuttling; you'll be disappointed. But if you can afford the cost of the extra bike it's an awesome way to increase your DH miles.


----------



## mlloyd007 (Dec 7, 2009)

Agree with the above post on all points. I think the reason you get better faster with the ebike (other than the obvious more DH runs) is that when you start the DH run, you're not gassed from a 30 or 60 minute grind to the top, so you can put a lot more energy into the descent. That allows you to do things you wouldn't if you were tired or conserving energy, and it makes a big difference. And when you get back on your enduro rig, it feels very light and you can really move it around with ease. I wouldn't like to ride the ebike all the time because I feel it encourages a riding style that lacks finesse (at least for me), but it is nice to alternate between ebike and analog simply for the diversity of experience.


----------



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Interesting, keep the responses coming.


----------



## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

I’ve owned 3 ebikes and plan to get many more in the future. Always looking at what’s next. Coming from a moto background, I’ve wanted enduro/DH oriented ebikes long before they even existed, so my decision was definitely not based on trying to avoid shuttling with a car if that’s what you were asking. 

Has increased my overall ride fun for sure. (Which is most important). Descending is equally fun on any bike I’ve ridden.

Shuttle less than before, but am not afraid to throw the ebike in the back of a truck and get shuttled up a hill. (Some trails we ride only way to the top is a paved road/highway, so not fun to pedal that with speeding cars next to you). 

My fitness and general descending speed has gone down since I got an ebike though. Way easier to be lazy on an ebike. And ebike racing hasn’t caught on fully yet here in California, so less motivation to push myself to get faster.


----------



## dryk1t (7 mo ago)

If I could drop the coin on one, I would absolutely get back into proper DH because of it.

The only reason I left DH was the lack of desire to rely so heavily on using it only on days or locations there were shuttles / lifts.

I picked up a full carbon enduro rig for just over $5k aud instead that is very easy to ride myself back to the top on that I am thoroughly enjoying however had I the $10k laying around for the same spec I could have been tempted to go the e-bike DH path.

I am not able to hit the bigger, longer decents, for sure, and it is something I have missed on occasion, but one day I will convince myself to get back into long travel again with an e-bike.

The happiness and joy that a hobby can bring to someone can be priceless though, obviously for me, it wasn't without limits


----------



## NS-NV (Aug 15, 2006)

95% of the reason I added E, is to replace shuttling.

Still like to run the old meat engine, especially with the dog.


----------



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

I’ve been riding since the mid ‘90s and rode 3 to 4 times a week. Did some XC, DH and enduro racing during those days. I didn’t shuttle much, not sure why not as I would always say in my mind “ if only there was a lift or shuttle, I’d take it in a heartbeat. 

Almost 53yrs old now, been on an ebike for about the last 3 years and having so much fun! Imagine having fun, uphill, downhill and everywhere in between. Hitting trails that was just out of your reach or you only did occasionally, because the ride was so brutal and doing them on a regular basis now. 

My current ebike is a 2021 Specialized Kenevo, basically a DH ebike: custom rear shock = 190mm travel and Fox 38 at 180mm, sometimes I put a double crown fork on there as well. 

You get use to the weight fast and looking at my Strava from the past to now, my DH times are about the same speed when it comes to more technical, slower trails. Faster on the higher speed, steeper trails as this ebike is planted. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

How long is your shock. I have a 232x66mm shock coming for my Kenevo and that should give me 189ish in the rear. Ordered it with a600lb coil.


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

The trail I shuttle is still faster by car. The trail is a 7 mile run with 3k elevation. With an E bike...it'll still take around 40+ mins to ride back up the singletrack...which isn't the best idea. Safest way is to ride up the road. By car...its 20 mins up the road.


----------



## dryk1t (7 mo ago)

RS VR6 said:


> The trail I shuttle is still faster by car. The trail is a 7 mile run with 3k elevation. With an E bike...it'll still take around 40+ mins to ride back up the singletrack...which isn't the best idea. Safest way is to ride up the road. By car...its 20 mins up the road.


7miles/11km... that is longer than the single largest DH trail that exists in my country hahaha (9km I think).

2.5km is far more common a length that I see.

Certainly a unique case for shuttle that one.


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

dryk1t said:


> 7miles/11km... that is longer than the single largest DH trail that exists in my country hahaha (9km I think).
> 
> 2.5km is far more common a length that I see.
> 
> Certainly a unique case for shuttle that one.


The safest way back up is riding the road which is about 9 miles. No pedal assist ebike will be better than a car.

My local ski resort run is about 1.5 miles long. I'll take the lift rather than use an ebike to get back up...its just faster. Maybe if the lift line is super long...it might be faster to ride up. I do have trail thats near me that is a good candidate for an ebike though. There's a super fun 3 mile section of singletrack that is accessible up a fire road. With an ebike...I'd just go full power up that fireroad and ride back down that trail multiple times.


----------



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

alexbn921 said:


> How long is your shock. I have a 232x66mm shock coming for my Kenevo and that should give me 189ish in the rear. Ordered it with a600lb coil.


Stock is 230x62.5 and I had Fluid Focus do their magic plus make the stroke to 65mm. Gives almost 190mm. I also mullet the bike and I’ve ridden it full 29er as well. 

Mullet, I ride the shock in high setting and full 29er is low settings. Kenevo was fast is both configuration, but at 5’9” mullet feels better. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

mtbbiker said:


> Stock is 230x62.5 and I had Fluid Focus do their magic plus make the stroke to 65mm. Gives almost 190mm. I also mullet the bike and I’ve ridden it full 29er as well.
> 
> Mullet, I ride the shock in high setting and full 29er is low settings. Kenevo was fast is both configuration, but at 5’9” mullet feels better.
> 
> ...


The leverage rate at bottom out is 2.65 *2.5 = 6.6mm extra. Still more than stock and an easy upgrade. Frame has plenty of clearance for extra stroke.


----------



## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I'm wondering how the newer mid-power lightweight e-mtbs would work for this type of DH shuttle riding, like the Trek Fuel EX-e and the Pivot Shuttle SL, or the Transition Relay if you want more travel. Less power and battery capacity than the full-power e-mtbs, so it may limit the number of runs you do, but also a lot lighter and probably more fun. The weight of e-mtbs has kind of turned me off from them, but these newer ~40 lb. bikes with the TQ50 or Fazua Ride60 motors really appeal to me.

There are some local trails I ride that have an area of technical DH trails that are almost like bike park trails. I usually go down one of them as part of a larger trail ride loop, then the ride back up takes me about 25 minutes in my granny gear, and I only want to do that once during a ride. I'm thinking that if I had some pedal assist I could a few of those DH trails during a ride instead of just one.


----------



## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

jabrabu said:


> I'm wondering how the newer mid-power lightweight e-mtbs would work for this type of DH shuttle riding, like the Trek Fuel EX-e and the Pivot Shuttle SL, or the Transition Relay if you want more travel. Less power and battery capacity than the full-power e-mtbs, so it may limit the number of runs you do, but also a lot lighter and probably more fun. The weight of e-mtbs has kind of turned me off from them, but these newer ~40 lb. bikes with the TQ50 or Fazua Ride60 motors really appeal to me.
> 
> There are some local trails I ride that have an area of technical DH trails that are almost like bike park trails. I usually go down one of them as part of a larger trail ride loop, then the ride back up takes me about 25 minutes in my granny gear, and I only want to do that once during a ride. I'm thinking that if I had some pedal assist I could a few of those DH trails during a ride instead of just one.


My ebike is 53 lbs and my Ripmo AF is 33 pounds. The only time I really feel the weight is in and out of the truck. I was surprised how easy it is to wheelie and bunnyhop and pop off lips with the ebike. It does a bit freight train like on some steeper faster sections. Mine is a mullet so it helps with getting around corners and shorter chainstays. I am also interested to see how these lightweight ebikes 60 nm will be so I can compare. I ride my ebike on xc trails a little boring but it is made for Enduro trails.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

I didn't buy my bike to replace shuttling, but I ride it on trails that other people shuttle. It's always funny to see their trucks and SUV's parked at the top, knowing that after they get done they have to drive that miserable road up and down _again. _I also ride to a lot of trailheads from my house that other people drive to....trails I would drive to if riding my traditional bike.

Another benefit I've been noticing lately is that the E makes rough flat trails fun. Trails that people have largely quit riding, because everyone is so downhill focused now, and they're getting overgrown / reclaimed by nature, and I'm able to go out there and have a ton of fun riding them because the E keeps the momentum flowing.

I'm really at the point where I'm seriously considering using my eMTB as my full time MTB, and using my traditional bike (rigid steel 12 speed flat bar) as more of an "all-road" bike. It's just seems kind of dumb to have an E full suspension bike, and a non-E full suspension bike, when they do the same thing.


----------



## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

I didn’t buy it to replace shuttling. But I do use it to retrieve my truck after I’ve done a shuttle drop sometimes.

I prefer to ride my regular MTB on the descents, but the TurboLevo is great for taking the long route back up the trails to fetch the truck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

KRob said:


> I didn’t buy it to replace shuttling. But I do use it to retrieve my truck after I’ve done a shuttle drop.
> 
> I prefer to ride my regular MTB on the descents, but the TurboLevo is great for taking the long route back up the trails to fetch the truck.
> 
> ...


Interesting. So you do this while solo shuttling? How do you keep the e-bike secure at the bottom of the trail while you are blasting down? And what do you do with your regular mtb while blasting back up to get your truck with the e-bike?


----------



## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

KRob said:


> I didn’t buy it to replace shuttling. But I do use it to retrieve my truck after I’ve done a shuttle drop.
> 
> I prefer to ride my regular MTB on the descents, but the TurboLevo is great for taking the long route back up the trails to fetch the truck.


Oooh now that is a terrific idea that I never thought of! I'm lucky enough to have a few long descents that end up right at my house which I assume is your situation too.


----------



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Reverse solo shuttling.... I hadn't even thought of that.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I'll be going with a low power/ weight weenie/ large travel e-bike in the next 6 months.

I love pedaling but the most fun trails really are a chore to get back up.

We don't even remotely have mountains but still a 20 minute slog on rough terrain is very common.

My riding buddies have pre-rejected me as a quitter as I've announced my intentions.

For the easier flatter trails I'll of course remain on the meat motor bike.


----------



## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> I'll be going with a low power/ weight weenie/ large travel e-bike in the next 6 months.
> 
> I love pedaling but the most fun trails really are a chore to get back up.
> 
> ...


it will be hard to hear them when you are so far ahead or on lap 4 when they are lap 1! 😁


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I already mostly ride alone, I'll just turn the power down or off when on group rides at the roughest trails. I also suspect that on the chunkiest trails I'll gain enough experience on the e-bike that I'll be able to ride some of them, on my Downcountry bike when joining others.

It seems that my bike pedaling fitness will take a permanent downturn however, and I've accepted that.


----------



## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

I don't own one but have ridden a number of demo bikes, I found them to be ridiculous fun on the climbs eg braking for corners on uphills

we have lots of trails with no access at the top or even close to so shuttling isn't an option and if you want multiple laps then it's Ebike or become an XC racer.....Ebike is the easier option.

IF I had the money and I still did DH I could see the potential in a 180mm travel bike for shuttling the local DH track as organizing people to do shuttling is a PITA


----------



## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> I'll be going with a low power/ weight weenie/ large travel e-bike in the next 6 months.
> 
> I love pedaling but the most fun trails really are a chore to get back up.
> 
> ...


Which bike are you planning to get? I'm looking at various lightweight e-mtbs right now.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Interesting. So you do this while solo shuttling? How do you keep the e-bike secure at the bottom of the trail while you are blasting down? And what do you do with your regular mtb while blasting back up to get your truck with the e-bike?


It sounds like he's maybe starting/finishing from his house?


----------



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

If you are looking for a DH light weight ebike, I think the best on the market right now is the Kenevo SL. Main negative is the 35nm motor, but those who have this ebike, loves them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

jabrabu said:


> Which bike are you planning to get? I'm looking at various lightweight e-mtbs right now.


The Transition Relay, the Forestal Siryon, or the new yet to be released Spesh Levo SL.

The kenevo SL is a good one but the motor is annoying and it's a bit heavy imo. Also the seat post insertion is poor. You can however get a bit of a deal on one right now. 

You?

I do not want a dirt bike experience like a full power E- bike. 

Just want to climb like I have really good legs on a XC rig, even though I'll have 170mm travel on DH tires.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> The Transition Relay, the Forestal Siryon, or the new yet to be released Spesh Levo SL.
> 
> The kenevo SL is a good one but the motor is annoying and it's a bit heavy imo. Also the seat post insertion is poor. You can however get a bit of a deal on one right now.
> 
> ...


A "full power" ebike isn't a "dirt bike experience", not even close. And you don't have to use full power all the time. Beauty is that you can keep the power low for trail riding, then crank it up on the road to minimize your time mingling with cars, or to get up a long boring climb.


.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I've ridden with actual Motocross bikes on one of our local trails where they are fully allowed, it's called Emma Long and you can watch videos online if you want. 
A 250cc dirt bike might have 38hp but the terrain is what is speed limiting and MX bikes really aren't much faster than bicycles on much of the trail. 

If I doubled my climbing speed and could go 20mph on the slightly inclined flat portions, as a full powered e- bike would allow, I'd be able to personally go as fast as the typical trail MX rider out there. On a proper MX track, an e- bike is just a bicycle. But on a rough tight trail it offers a huge speed advantage. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> I've ridden with actual Motocross bikes on one of our local trails where they are fully allowed, it's called Emma Long and you can watch videos online if you want.
> A 250cc diet bike might have 38hp but the terrain is what is speed limiting and MX bikes really aren't much faster than bicycles on much of the trail.
> 
> If I doubled my climbing speed and could go 20mph on the slightly inclined flat portions, as a full powered e- bike would allow, I'd be able to personally go as fast as the typical trail MX rider out there. On a proper MX track, an e- bike is just a bicycle. But on a rough tight trail it offers a huge speed advantage.
> ...


I don't doubt that you've ridden a moto on single-track. So have I, and I've often made the argument that it's the trail that limits speed, not the bike, even when they have 30+hp, but many refuse to believe it, thanks for backing me up on that. I also own an ebike, and the same argument applies.

But, back to your statement about "full power" ebikes being a "dirt bike experience". It's laughable, and anyone who has ridden both knows it. Never mind the fact that 99% of the class 1 bikes available are Euro spec with a 250w nominal rating, and only 560w peak for even the most powerful. That's 1/3 of a HP compared to 30+hp for most dirt bikes. Your "low power" ebike offers up to 240 watts of assistance. Not really a significant difference.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

It's best we don't get off in to the weeds arguing. I'm welcome to my opinion as you all are welcome to yours.

I've pedaled full powered e-bikes and I think they are much too powerful for the sort of undulating, bi-directional trails that we have locally in ATX and where some locals desire to use them, I think they are a hazard to other trail users, like my own wife and child. For straight up roads, and then downhill 1 way trails they make great sense.

You can argue to turn a full powered e-bike down but the promise of all that speed is hard for me to pass on, and why carry an extra 12#s around if I'm not going to use it? But it's really the quality of power delivery on full size e-bikes that is problematic. They are jerky, sudden, and don't even require wise gear selection or proper cadence from the rider. That just isn't the 'bike' riding experience I'm personally searching for.

The extra battery juice on a full size isn't helpful as I only get to ride longer than 2.5 hours a handful of times per year. So an add on battery back to use for road tripping just makes more sense, for me.

My personal opinion is that the new crop of low powered e-bikes are the future for the healthy people that just want to ride really gnarly trails. The full powered e-bikes make more sense for DH guys, the handicapped & the elderly. Which is frankly always the argument used for their existence anyways. And of course just a 'bike' makes the most sense for trail riders everywhere.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

_CJ said:


> I don't doubt that you've ridden a moto on single-track. So have I, and I've often made the argument that it's the trail that limits speed, not the bike, even when they have 30+hp, but many refuse to believe it, thanks for backing me up on that. I also own an ebike, and the same argument applies.
> 
> But, back to your statement about "full power" ebikes being a "dirt bike experience". It's laughable, and anyone who has ridden both knows it. Never mind the fact that 99% of the class 1 bikes available are Euro spec with a 250w nominal rating, and only 560w peak for even the most powerful. That's 1/3 of a HP compared to 30+hp for most dirt bikes. Your "low power" ebike offers up to 240 watts of assistance. Not really a significant difference.


I think you misunderstood me.

Although I have ridden motos on single track trails, including this one, I was pointing out that bicycles well ridden already are not much slower than MX bikes on tight trails such as this one. Because I often try like heck to keep up with the motorcycles on this very trail as it's hella fun, until the hills start anyways.

Full power e-bikes quadruple the rider's power up to around 1 hp. One hp on a lightweight 2 wheeled machine is enough power to go quite fast, as proven by the uncorked e-bikes going 35 mph on youtube.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> I think you misunderstood me.
> 
> Although I have ridden motos on single track trails, including this one, I was pointing out that bicycles well ridden already are not much slower than MX bikes on tight trails such as this one. Because I often try like heck to keep up with the motorcycles on this very trail as it's hella fun, until the hills start anyways.
> 
> Full power e-bikes quadruple the rider's power up to around 1 hp. One hp on a lightweight 2 wheeled machine is enough power to go quite fast, as proven by the uncorked e-bikes going 35 mph on youtube.


Okay, so you're just trolling now. I get it. "uncorked" doesn't increase the power, just removes the power cutoff at speed. You know who else can go 35mph? A human with no assistance. 4x is a cute marketing tactic from Specialized, but has no basis in reality. Nobody is going 4x as fast, or laying down 4x the power of a traditional rider. You would know that if you owned one.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

CJ, how am I trolling when I'm shopping for an e-bike and giving my personal opinion and state it as such?

As I recall, you are an elderly gentleman and you have my full support to ride a full powered e-bike. 

Full powered e-bikes just aren't for me, for the reasons I've given. In my admittedly limited experience on them, they are too far from bicycles and too close to motorcycles, for tight single track and the way I like to ride.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Nobody is going 4x as fast, or laying down 4x the power of a traditional rider. You would know that if you owned one.



4x the power on climbs seems in line.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> 4x the power on climbs seems in line.


Yes it is. Obviously 4x the power doesn't equal 4x the speed and I never indicated anything like that. 
Approximately speaking, a Z50 Honda with about 3 hp can run about 40mph, but 12 hp (4x as much) will not get you 160mph (also 4x as much).
That's not the way power/ velocity works. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> The Transition Relay, the Forestal Siryon, or the new yet to be released Spesh Levo SL.
> 
> The kenevo SL is a good one but the motor is annoying and it's a bit heavy imo. Also the seat post insertion is poor. You can however get a bit of a deal on one right now.
> 
> You?


I'm leaning toward the Trek Fuel EXe right now. The TQ50 motor is the quietest, and I like the control and the display. I also think 140-150mm travel is probably the sweet spot for the type of riding I'll be doing. My trail bike is 120mm, so a little more travel on an e-mtb would be good. It also seems like it's priced more reasonably than a lot of other brands. I'm usually not drawn to Trek bikes, but this one seems to tick all the boxes for me.

The Pivot Shuttle SL also looks good. I ride a Pivot Trail 429, and this looks similar. Rear travel is only 132mm though. The Pro X01 build is $10K will alloy wheels, alloy cranks, and a GX cassette, where the Trek Fuel EXe 9.8 XT is $8700 with a full XT drivetrain, XT brakes, carbon cranks, and carbon wheels. The Pivot Pro X01 does have the Fox Factory suspension, which is worth more to me, but not that much more.

The Transition Relay also looks great. 160mm travel and more of an enduro bike, which could be a nice complement to my 120mm trail bike. But it's not available until next spring.

The Forestal you mentioned also looks great, but seems really expensive compared to comparable builds from other brands, and I want to hear more about how well that single pivot rear suspension works.

The new Levo SL should be out soon, and it will be interesting to see how it compares to these others. I expect comparable builds will be a lot more expensive than the Trek, though.


----------



## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> 4x the power on climbs seems in line.


The app I use (BLEvo) to record rides conveniently gives a final breakdown of Watt-hours spent by the rider, vs the battery. A spot-check of half a dozen or so of my rides shows I am pretty consistent at 30/70 (rider/battery), so call it 2.5x. And I don't blast around in turbo mode everywhere I go but nor do leave it in eco all the time either. Full turbo mode, depending on how you set it up and how you pedaled would probably be about 4x.

But also, the comparison to dirt bikes is absurd and either completely misinformed or trolling, take your pick. Anyone who says otherwise either hasn't ridden much of one or the other, or both.

N


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

jabrabu said:


> I'm leaning toward the Trek Fuel EXe right now. The TQ50 motor is the quietest, and I like the control and the display. I also think 140-150mm travel is probably the sweet spot for the type of riding I'll be doing. My trail bike is 120mm, so a little more travel on an e-mtb would be good. It also seems like it's priced more reasonably than a lot of other brands. I'm usually not drawn to Trek bikes, but this one seems to tick all the boxes for me.
> 
> The Pivot Shuttle SL also looks good. I ride a Pivot Trail 429, and this looks similar. Rear travel is only 132mm though. The Pro X01 build is $10K will alloy wheels, alloy cranks, and a GX cassette, where the Trek Fuel EXe 9.8 XT is $8700 with a full XT drivetrain, XT brakes, carbon cranks, and carbon wheels. The Pivot Pro X01 does have the Fox Factory suspension, which is worth more to me, but not that much more.
> 
> ...


Our thinking on these matters is closely aligned. 
I agree the Trek likely has the best motor currently available. Plus Iocal serviceability from a big brand is a huge deal. The travel isn't quite what I desire however. 
The reviews on the Fazua motor state that it has a bit of lag unless you maintain constant pressure. This is a downside to models that use this motor. 
Agree on the single pivot concerns regarding the Siryon. That said I want at minimum 155 rear travel in an ebike, the reviews are phenomenal, the L geo is literally exactly my dream geo, and it was dialed in by Cedric Garcia. As far as the spec, not a killer value, but I'd part it out and build my best based on many parts I already own. If I could order this direct from Forestal it would be the best deal based on current exchange rates. 
I'm not interested in the Pivot. Too small of travel, don't love the geo. I greatly dislike short chainstays and I've heard the balance issues are even worse with a mid mount motor. 
The 'Trannie' has much to consider. I really like HL suspension, adjustable geo, mullet option, Spire geo, removal battery, major US brand, etc. Lots of good stuff there. 
There is lots to consider. 
If one came as a frame only, it would win easily for me. 
I have a mullet link on the way for my SJEVO to test, if I just love the mullet life then I'll go with the mullet capable Relay. Of course the new Levo SL might also have this capability. If I don't prefer mullet, then this doesn't help the Relay at all. 
I'm likely not buying until the spring so have time to weigh my options. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

nilswalk said:


> A spot-check of half a dozen or so of my rides shows I am pretty consistent at 30/70 (rider/battery), so call it 2.5x.



Sounds reasonable for the whole ride but I am was in talking specifically about climbs.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Sounds reasonable for the whole ride but I am was in talking specifically about climbs.


I use less than 1x on the climbs. I have a .8X and a 1.2X for really steep stuff.

Then on the DH I use 2x with full available. This way full power is available when I hammer, but it's controllable.

Turbo is not enabled. 

Climb = long and slow to save power
DH fast and full power fun.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

I have read the reported posts and the thread in its entirety. The content in this thread for the greater part is appropriate content and shall remain. Please, no more reports from members unless the post is truly grievous. Abusing the "report post" function can and probably will result in a posting vacation. TIA.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

alexbn921 said:


> I use less than 1x on the climbs. I have a .8X and a 1.2X for really steep stuff.
> 
> Then on the DH I use 2x with full available. This way full power is available when I hammer, but it's controllable.
> 
> ...



What is 1x, 2x etc? Have you verified your' assistance via power meter?


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> What is 1x, 2x etc? Have you verified your' assistance via power meter?


All Ebikes have power meters. I also train with a power meter on my road bike so I am very familiar with my output and how it relates to forward motion. Plenty of people use an app to record all the bikes input and output data. It has been verified. 

My Garmin tracks and records my output in real time.

Specailized lists 565 watts output. Which is about 750 watts input.
It also list 4.1X at 100% assistance.
20% = .8x @ 50% max
30% =1.2x @ 70% max
50% = 2 x @ 100% max 300-350 feels about where I hit max motor power.


Good thing I justified that to you. I feel much better now. 

So about shuttles.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

alexbn921 said:


> Good thing I justified that to you. I feel much better now.



Yay!

Most ebikes don't have power meters ime. I was only curious.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> 4x the power on climbs seems in line.


Maybe, if you're only able to generate 125w on your own. Lots of riders can easily generate 350w on a climb, so 4x ain't happening. It's just a dumb marketing ploy.

.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Lots of riders can easily generate 350w on a climb,



and even more can't. At least they can't sustain it.

Based on my own experience 4x your own power seems like a reasonable estimate. This isn't bagging on ebikes whatsoever, actually a selling point imo.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> and even more can't. At least they can't sustain it.
> 
> Based on my own experience 4x your own power seems like a reasonable estimate. This isn't bagging on ebikes whatsoever, actually a selling point imo.


It's more semantics. ohhhh 4x the power!!!! up to 560w, or 3/4 hp. Not a "dirt bike experience" as previously claimed, that's all I'm saying. The difference between a "low power" and "full power" bike is negligible relative to any motorized off road vehicle.

Sure, the "low power" bikes are lighter weight, and feel more like a traditional bike, and if that's what you're after, that's great, but I fail to see the need to paint "full power" bikes as a dirt bike when the difference is 10 pounds and 1/4 hp. It's a ridiculous statement.


.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> It's more semantics. ohhhh 4x the power!!!! up to 560w, or 3/4 hp. Not a "dirt bike experience" as previously claimed, that's all I'm saying. The difference between a "low power" and "full power" bike is negligible relative to any motorized off road vehicle.
> 
> Sure, the "low power" bikes are lighter weight, and feel more like a traditional bike, and if that's what you're after, that's great, but I fail to see the need to paint "full power" bikes as a dirt bike when the difference is 10 pounds and 1/4 hp. It's a ridiculous statement.
> 
> ...





Well I for one have never tried to paint ebikes as "full power" dirt bikes. If you're looking for something to aid your shuttle runs though they are one hella boost compared to a full hp bike.


----------



## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Interesting. So you do this while solo shuttling? How do you keep the e-bike secure at the bottom of the trail while you are blasting down? And what do you do with your regular mtb while blasting back up to get your truck with the e-bike?


I guess I should add that my house is within a mile or two from the end of most of my shuttle trails, so no need to secure either bike except in my garage. I just ride to the house, grab the eBike then head back up (or if I'm late for work, I walk two blocks to work then get the truck in the evening or the next morning).


----------



## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

nilswalk said:


> Oooh now that is a terrific idea that I never thought of! I'm lucky enough to have a few long descents that end up right at my house which I assume is your situation too.


Yep. Three or four of my favorite descents end within a mile or two of my house. And my wife is thrilled that she doesn't have to shuttle me or take me back up to fetch my truck.


----------



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

KRob said:


> Yep. Three or four of my favorite descents end within a mile or two of my house. And my wife is thrilled that she doesn't have to shuttle me or take me back up to fetch my truck.


Its got to be a royal pita doing a double shuttle, truck up, bike down then bike up then truck down then truck back upto get the standard bike then truck back up. 

Surely just sending it twice on the ebike in the same time you do the double shuttle would be more fun?


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

The issue I have with e-bikes is that they are really in their infancy and no one seems to make particularly close to what I want.

I'll take a Claymore please with the TQ HP motor that Trek is using and throw on the Cedric's high mount derailleur (Supre?) while you are at it, since you already have the idler anyways.

Today I rode a local trail called Travis Country and although it's great, the slog out and up was really a complete MFer for me in 92' heat (coolest day in months btw). I still want all that single track technical climbing goodness, but just a little assistance so I'm not killing myself for 25 minutes straight. At 51 I feel like my progression/ fitness is pretty stalled out and that's probably about as good as it gets for my climbing fitness.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Speaking of self shuttling on an ebike, anyone here consider the gas saved? Based on some wh/mi conversions, my ebike gets the equivalent of 2000 mpgs.




.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

_CJ said:


> Speaking of self shuttling on an ebike, anyone here consider the gas saved? Based on some wh/mi conversions, my ebike gets the equivalent of 2000 mpgs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't go bringing logic into this. I haven't driven the 2.5 miles to the trail head in over 15 years. It makes zero sense to load the bike on the car for such a short trip, but plenty of people do.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

alexbn921 said:


> Don't go bringing logic into this. I haven't driven the 2.5 miles to the trail head in over 15 years.



That's great but I don't think a 2.5 mile trail commute requires e-power.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's great but I don't think a 2.5 mile trail commute requires e-power.


I haven't had an ebike for 15 years 

90% of riders drive.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

alexbn921 said:


> I haven't had an ebike for 15 years
> 
> 90% of riders drive.





Ah, got it. The name of this thread though, you can see how I was fooled-
*Who has bought an ebike specifically to replace shuttling? *


I bet 90% of riders live more than 5 miles away from a trailhead. Just a wild guess.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Ah, got it. The name of this thread though, you can see how I was fooled-
> *Who has bought an ebike specifically to replace shuttling? *
> 
> 
> I bet 90% of riders live more than 5 miles away from a trailhead. Just a wild guess.


I'll take that bet.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

alexbn921 said:


> I'll take that bet.



Ok, I think if anything it's probably more. I'm over 20 miles away from a trailhead and I know others are around that. Just about anyone living in a city is going to be 5+ miles away from dirt.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Ok, I think if anything it's probably more. I'm over 20 miles away from a trailhead and I know others are around that. Just about anyone living in a city is going to be 5+ miles away from dirt.


Priorities.
I wouldn't buy a house more than 5 miles from dirt. Having to load the bike in the car for the 20+ years I was planning on keeping this house was


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I like your priorities. Unfortunately a 2500 sq ft fixer upper home next to the Austin GB runs about 2 million.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

a 1100 sq ft all original looks like a murder happened house is $800k in the "bad" part of town.

You build your foundation and you save. When the time is right you buy. Kind of how I saw the potential in Tesla and bought 3 years ago 

Plenty of nice places to live that don't exceed your budget. Even around here there are reasonable areas that you can ride to dirt. They are just a little more out of the way.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

alexbn921 said:


> Priorities.
> I wouldn't buy a house more than 5 miles from dirt.




Good priorities but I was talking about averages.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Good priorities but I was talking about averages.


Moving the goal post again. Most (over 60%) of the 30+ riders in our group live within 5 miles of dirt. We are lucky to have parks spread throughout the area. There is a critical mass of people that makes some of them more hostile than others. One guy moved up to Oregon and he sure as hell isn't 5 miles form dirt.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

alexbn921 said:


> Moving the goal post again.




No. I don't think either of us has accurate data. I suspect I'm right but willing to concede that I may be wrong.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

alexbn921 said:


> a 1100 sq ft all original looks like a murder happened house is $800k in the "bad" part of town.
> 
> You build your foundation and you save. When the time is right you buy. Kind of how I saw the potential in Tesla and bought 3 years ago
> 
> Plenty of nice places to live that don't exceed your budget. Even around here there are reasonable areas that you can ride to dirt. They are just a little more out of the way.


Well we sign on our new low 7 figure home at the end of this month and move in early next. The same home/ land very near the good trails would cost $6 mil+. So now I have to commute a short distance to the XC trails and 20 minutes to the fun stuff. It's a shame that the easy trails are really only 3-4 miles away but the bike commute getting there would be gnarly car traffic, and I don't want to die.

But financial foundation or not, most people with 2 daughters & a wife aren't moving to a 'murder happened house' in a 'bad' part of town so that they can have good trail access. That's just bad priorities.

I do plan to move to a less expensive and cooler place for retirement and hope to be right on top of the trails. However the house and the land for the family will still be the priority.


----------



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Closest bike park for me is 15km away. But I do have round town trails I can ride from my house.


----------



## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

plummet said:


> Its got to be a royal pita doing a double shuttle, truck up, bike down then bike up then truck down then truck back upto get the standard bike then truck back up.
> 
> Surely just sending it twice on the ebike in the same time you do the double shuttle would be more fun?


Truck up, bike down. E-bike up, Truck down. Done. Not that complicated. Not the preferred method and I wouldn't do it that way for a double shuttle, but occasionally when I don't have anyone to shuttle me up or don't have enough time/energy to ride up or I'm with someone one who doesn't have the fitness to ride up, it's a good way to go fetch my truck. I ride my normal mtb 90 percent of the time.

I do use the E-bike sometimes for multiple laps up and down or for a longer loop ride with two (or three) different climbs for multiple descents on the same ride (no truck involved).

It's a (fun) tool I use occasionally.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

alexbn921 said:


> Priorities.
> I wouldn't buy a house more than 5 miles from dirt. Having to load the bike in the car for the 20+ years I was planning on keeping this house was
> View attachment 1999922


Me too.

Just sold one house that was about a mile from two different trail systems, several more within 5 miles. Moved to a new town, bought a house about 1/4 mile from the nearest trail system with several others within 5 miles. Going further back, I don't think I've lived more than 5 miles away from at least one trail system since 1990.

Priorities is right.


----------



## chadbrochills (Aug 9, 2018)

I have nothing to add to this, because I'm in Florida and we don't need to shuttle. lol

That being said, I have to laugh at anyone saying riding a full power e-bike is like riding a dirtbike. No, it's not.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

If you can climb a steep hill, and don't have to pump out some serious watts of your own, and on turbo, quite literally no more watts then just coasting downhill and moving your legs, what would you call it? Is that a 'bike' riding experience because it has 2 wheels?

I've watched several reviews of 'light e-bikes vs. full power e-bikes' and in one on a long rocky tough climb the guy on the full e-bike literally exclaimed (as a compliment) 'this is literally no work at all!'

The point I've made before, and understand that I'm an e-bike convert, I'm literally joining the crew! Is that a full power e-bike is grotesquely too powerful for the able bodied on multi-directional single track. This really should be obvious and it's not safe for other trail users.

The argument to turn down the power can be a valid one I guess, except why would I carry around all that weight and jerky power delivery to actually never want to use it, ever?

The problem that I see is that a lot of e-bike riders really take offense to the FACT that e-bikes are different and in fact you don't have to pedal nearly as hard. Why not just own it? I've been called names in this thread and reported. How overly sensitive are these e-bikers? I haven't called you personally or e-bikers in general a name or told you not to ride them.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> If you can climb a steep hill, and don't have to pump out some serious watts of your own, and on turbo, quite literally no more watts then just coasting downhill and moving your legs, what would you call it? Is that a 'bike' riding experience because it has 2 wheels?
> 
> I've watched several reviews of 'light e-bikes vs. full power e-bikes' and in one on a long rocky tough climb the guy on the full e-bike literally exclaimed (as a compliment) 'this is literally no work at all!'
> 
> ...


#1. Even "turbo mode" requires input from the rider. Certainly more than riding downhill.
#2. It's not for you to decide what anyone "needs" to enjoy their ride
#3. No class 1 bike is "unsafe" for other trail users, as evidenced by millions of miles ridden on shared use trails with no more conflict than traditional bikes....according to the land managers.

If you want a lower power lighter weight bike, that's great, but there's no reason to denigrate riders who prefer standard class 1 bikes.

I've known people who talked like you and bought a low power bike. It wasn't long before they sold it and bought a "full power" bike.


.


----------



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Ok ladies, chillax and douche your Vjay, jays.... 

Let's get back into Ebiking for a shuttle substitute. 

What enduro Ebikes are you bastards rolling with? load em up? I want to see. 
Is anyone running the lightweight bikes for heavy enduro downs?


----------



## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

Giant Reign E+2, 170 Zeb Select, Float X 160, super plush on big hits and drops.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Semantics aside, we're simply not going to continue to draw comparisons between e-bikes and dirt bikes. Capiche? There will also be no further comments on a person's intellectual capacity, sanity or cycling ability going uphill or down. Steer the conversation back to the original topic or the thread gets binned and there could be some resultant vacations as well. TIA. Feel free to pm if you have concerns.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Some of the differences in how much power we all crave, certainly is terrain dependent. 
Living in CTX, I really don't have mountains as we have the TX Hill Country, so a shuttle bike isn't really needed except in a very few spots. 
Anyways, the new TQ HPR motor is the product I desire but it's only available in the Trek EXE currently but I'm looking forward to seeing it in an enduro bike that I will certainly buy. 
In this case I'm probably going to choose the motor first and foremost, even over geo.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## NS-NV (Aug 15, 2006)

For me, the ½ Fat KenevoSL is the perfect shuttle replacement. Running the meat engine to the top of my local mtn, my heart rate is redlining for 110+ minutes, and my legs are pretty toasted. 

On the SL, I get a perfectly consistent HR zone 3 cardio workout for 45-60 min, and the legs feel great. Ends up being faster than shuttling and retrieval.


----------



## chadbrochills (Aug 9, 2018)

Suns_PSD said:


> If you can climb a steep hill, and don't have to pump out some serious watts of your own, and on turbo, quite literally no more watts then just coasting downhill and moving your legs, what would you call it?


I'd call that not a steep enough hill. 🤷‍♂️ 😂


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

shuttle cost 45$
ebike 5k$ 
riding up 0$ 
the weight loss priceless 😁


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Stewiewin said:


> shuttle cost 45$
> ebike 5k$
> riding up 0$
> the weight loss priceless 😁


How do you ride up without a bike?

.


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

thats his 1st bike?


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

chadbrochills said:


> I'd call that not a steep enough hill. 🤷‍♂️ 😂


Steep enough?


----------



## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

alexbn921 said:


> Steep enough?


I’d say that’s plenty steep. 
Were you able to clean it on your eBike?
Was it “literally no work at all”?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

We clean it, but it takes full power from bike and rider.


----------



## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

alexbn921 said:


> We clean it, but it takes full power from bike and rider.


I'll bet it does! That's stupid steep. Must be plenty of traction.


----------



## stevenfallover (Jun 5, 2004)

Did not start out that way but ended up that way! Sold the SB150 and have not regretted it so far. You can always buy another. I am kicking around the idea of a downhill specific bike though. E bikes are just too much fun.


----------



## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Intense Tazer MX 160/155


----------

