# Why do more woman not MTB??



## Damitletsride! (Feb 4, 2004)

Hey, i rarely post here so please be nice .
I would like to ask the members here their oppinions as to why so few woman do mountain biking? It has hit me the last two weekends, since ive been racing the last two sundays. Also i read an article in a paper about how a local triathlon club has a 3 : 1 male to female ratio and they're looking for more female members, and i thought there is no club on earth i know for mtb where the ratio is 3 : 1, its more like 10 :1 here where i live, or 8 : 1 on a good day.
And then i was thinking about the reactions woman might get off men in races and events, how do you all get treated in general? I passed by a woman on a climb last weekend and i think she was afraid to smile at me as i gave a friendly "hi", in case i tried to hit on her or start trying to chat her up, i'm only guessing. Does this happen alot? 

I know it can sometimes be a tough sport but it's so fun! 
Also, how do you generally like to be greated by men when they are passing you by? I like to say something friendly without sounding patronising.

Thanks, Mike.


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## deanna (Jan 15, 2004)

Damitletsride! said:


> I would like to ask the members here their oppinions as to why so few woman do mountain biking?


Likely for similar reasons as to why there's fewer women in math/science related career fields. They tend not to be encouraged to pursue such fields, they tend not to be encouraged to participate in sports that involve getting really dirty and possibly injured (note, I'm not saying ALL women, just in general).



Damitletsride! said:


> And then i was thinking about the reactions woman might get off men in races and events, how do you all get treated in general?


When I raced, most men were fairly friendly and encouraging. There were some jerks, but that happens in all walks of life... But it was fun when I cleaned a tight switchback followed by a steep climb to hear a man say, "you're the first woman I've seen actually ride that... and you didn't look like you had any problems!"



Damitletsride! said:


> Also, how do you generally like to be greated by men when they are passing you by?


I prefer to hear, "on your left". Followed by, "thanks" or "thanks, have a nice ride!" when I let them by-- I hate being 'tail-gated', so I'll usually slow down and move to the side (but not stopping) so they can get by faster. Anything else seems like they're trying for something more...


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

Damitletsride! said:


> ...how do you generally like to be greated by men when they are passing you by? I like to say something friendly without sounding patronising...


I like it when they slap me in the arse and say "just helpin' ya along baby doll..." 

I don't race, but on the trails "Hi" is the norm, stopping to chat for a few seconds isn't unusual, and on occasion we've tried to memorize each other's email address for future reference. I get requests for intel on trail & weather conditions, snow levels, etc since I live in a rural area w/ great trails within 100 miles and over a mountain pass from a big city. It's always notable to see a gal on the trails for them or for me, but the requests for info obviously have more to do with being a local than with gender.

There have been lots of threads re women's involvement w/ the sport in this forum if you care to ferret them out. My personal opinion is that it's a complex assortment of women having fewer opportunities/encouragement to try it while they're young, the marketing of MTBing as 'extreme', and general societal negativity about women out in wild places in general.

The latter reason alternately amuses me and/or pisses me off. I wish I had a $10 bill for every time I've heard "There are bears and cougars out there- you really shouldn't be alone in places like that, but if you are you should carry a gun!" Ironically I actually ended up facing down a full grown cougar with nothing but a flashlight, rocks, and a loud voice a few months ago while out running my 3 dog team... I'd carefully thought through what I'd do in that kind of situation ahead of time and it worked (although I felt like I'd had 10 cups of coffee that night, lol). I can tell you from experience that this was a whole lot easier to deal with solo than a homeless psychotic man at the emotional breaking point in downtown Portland. Your average urban area presents VASTLY greater safety risks to men or women IMO.... but nobody tells women to stay off city streets in this country.:skep:

Or to put it another way: What If There's Bears?


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## Consuela (Jun 13, 2008)

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure why more women don't ride more. I do wish more of my GFs mtb'd. It does seem like there are more roadie women than MTB woman, but that could just be my perception. The group I ride with has a decent co-ed mix that changes from week to week. It's a very social group with lots of regrouping and no drops. So, no one tends to feel guilty about people waiting, as long as they pick a ride that is appropriate for their level.

About being greeting on the trail, I think the main thing is that I like to be treated like I belong there. I don't want to be treated like a guest, especially if its a place I ride every week. If I'm being passed, "On your left... Have a nice ride." If we're stopped, then "Hi" is fine. If you think my Santa Cruz Heckler is nice, then a compliment about it always makes me feel good because I really like my bike. If I return the compliment, then some some bike chat is welcome. If there is a ranger ahead with a radar gun, then a heads up is always welcome! The main thing is that I like to be treated like I know what's going on. And, if I'm with the hubby or some guys, being acknowledged with them is very nice. I don't want to be the only one greeted, because that's just creepy, and don't need excessive attention. But, making eye contact with me along with the others when asking how our ride is, etc, makes me feel like I belong and am not invisible... 

Have a nice ride,
Consuela


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

I think it's because a lot of people just don't know about mountain biking. Curiously, I could almost say that more women seem interested in it when I talk about it (at work, in the store, etc.) than guys.(Can't say how many men or women actually followed up and tried it...it just seems that the women seem more interested !  ) My wife loves to ride...maybe more than I do! I guess that makes me a lucky man...:thumbsup:


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

I honestly don't pay that much attention. I race DH and often am the only girl in the group I'm riding with. And other times I ride alone, or with a couple other girls, and other times I'm in a big group of a dozen or more girls at once. And we've been out on the trail and run into other groups of girls. It doesn't bother me one way or the other, but I definitely don't feel like that much of a rarity on the trails around here.

Heh - and if I'm working hard on a climb, I'm not really capable of carrying on a conversation. I may not be capable of smiling either...  I wouldn't take that personally. Friendly chit chat (weather, trail info, bike comments) is generally not an issue IMO, but I'm not always capable or interested in talking when I'm climbing.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*That's easy!*

It is because girls are different. Girls that mountain bike are differenter.

I led the C group ride for our local trails counsil. 3 guys, 3 gals. In each gender one was not athletic, one might have been, and one was athletic from another sport. All were interested and had a very poor access to what was needed to learn the sport. It left them flailing and unsure.

We had a great time and they learned a lot. It's what I do.


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## santacruzchick (Jun 27, 2007)

Consuela said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> And, if I'm with the hubby or some guys, being acknowledged with them is very nice. I don't want to be the only one greeted, because that's just creepy, and don't need excessive attention. But, making eye contact with me along with the others when asking how our ride is, etc, makes me feel like I belong and am not invisible...
> 
> ...


This is really a pet peeve for me and it happens all the time. I second that opinion.

damitletsride, sounds like you are a good guy and your heart is in the right place.

Girls don't get encouraged to challenge and explore their physical limits when they're young the same as boys do, and they don't get the same level of societal and parental support and encouragement to participate in sports while they are young, and as a consequence many more of them choose not to participate in any sports/physical recreation at all. That leaves them at a disadvantage going into their teen and young 20's years and, really, for the rest of their lives. 
It's much easier to start out in some sport like, say, basketball or volleyball or soccer, and then transfer over the kinesthetic intelligence and fitness you gained there to a complex and demanding sport like mountain biking than it is to start mountain biking as your first and only sport when you're in your twenties or late teens.


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## Damitletsride! (Feb 4, 2004)

santacruzchick said:


> Girls don't get encouraged to challenge and explore their physical limits when they're young the same as boys do, and they don't get the same level of societal and parental support and encouragement to participate in sports while they are young, and as a consequence many more of them choose not to participate in any sports/physical recreation at all.


I think this could be a big reason now that i think about it. 
One other thing that puzzles me is how so many girls ski or snowboard, and to me skiing shares so many qualities with mountain biking.. going at a high speed down hill, looking out for changes in terrain, using balance and coordination. Ive scared myself just as many times skiing as mountain biking i could safely say! Yet i have sisters and several girlfriends that ski but say they would never mountain bike. This is something i can't get my head around.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Damitletsride! said:


> santacruzchick said:
> 
> 
> > Girls don't get encouraged to challenge and explore their physical limits when they're young the same as boys do, and they don't get the same level of societal and parental support and encouragement to participate in sports while they are young, and as a consequence many more of them choose not to participate in any sports/physical recreation at all.
> ...


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## Andrea138 (Mar 25, 2009)

It seems like there are even fewer women who road race. I spoke to a triathlete a couple of weeks ago after she and I hung with "the guys" on an insane hammer-fest type group ride. I told her she should road race and all she could do was say how much she was intimidated by head-to-head competition and that she'd be scared to try it. 

Maybe some women don't want to be seen as "tough" or "aggressive"? I think deanna was on the right track that women aren't encouraged (and sometimes even DIScouraged) to engage in "risk-taking" activities. 

As for greetings, just don't ask women you see on the trail to "kiss it and make it all better," lest you get a swift kick to the testicles.


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## santacruzchick (Jun 27, 2007)

connie said:


> Yet the vast majority of deaths on bicycles are from road biking. Yeah, you don't crash often on a road bike, but when you do it's ugly. Whereas for the most part, you are likely to crash on a mountain bike more often, but most of them are pretty minor. Yet, even if the damage is minimal, the higher frequency seems to make the average person associate it with "danger".


I agree and had this very conversation with a girlfriend who was thinking about taking up road biking on Saturday night. I didn't try to discourage her from road biking at all, but when she made a comment about being afraid of falling off a cliff and dying while mountain biking I pointed this out. I also like to tell people about the joys of body armor. Most scars on your legs can be avoided with the use of protection. The scars on my legs were starting to stack up and I was tired of paying >$1,000 for two stitches in the local urgent care center.

On the skiing vs. biking part, I think that skiing is just way more mainstream, with many more participants over all than mountain biking, so of course you are going to see more women skiing than mountain biking, even if they are still outnumbered by men on the slopes. Also, at least in the beginning/learning stages, lift served skiing is not as aerobically/anaerobically demanding as mountain biking (at least here in the mountains), so I can see how it's more comfortable to get into.


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

santacruzchick said:


> ...On the skiing vs. biking part, I think that skiing is just way more mainstream, with many more participants over all than mountain biking, so of course you are going to see more women skiing than mountain biking, even if they are still outnumbered by men on the slopes. Also, at least in the beginning/learning stages, lift served skiing is not as aerobically/anaerobically demanding as mountain biking (at least here in the mountains), so I can see how it's more comfortable to get into.


Agreed on all counts, but I think marketing also has a big part as well.

Ski areas make a huge push on representing skiing as a 'family sport'. Ads are rife with perfect-bleach-tooth-smiling wife, husband, and 2.5 kids riding the lift, gliding down the slopes, etc etc etc. There are oodles of starter/rental packages pimped endlessly that promise a soothing-yet-fun experience for anyone.

Contrast the most visible media portrayals of off road cycling... it's usually crazy downhill racing, insane gap jumps, that kind of thing. Bike rentals are more rarely advertised, beginner lessons are harder to find, and women aren't terribly interested in getting bunged up to the point of 'decommisioned' anyway- which is what that 'EXXXXTREME!' image suggests to rational mere mortals.*

If I tell someone that we're going to take my then 4yo daughter up to the slopes for a weekend next winter, the knee-jerk reaction will be quite positive overall. Those ads are really doing their job IMO, because if I tell them I'm taking the kid out riding- especially off road- the reaction is often frought with 'Danger Will Robinson!' (sometimes even complete with flailing arms). I have a hunch that if someone could pull numbers on hospital visits vs hours of participation, downhill skiing would be much more dangerous.... but it doesn't matter, because the sports are marketed completely differently, and people don't like being confused with facts. 

*There is some truth to the many emailed jokes about women thinking through things carefully, preparing meticulously, and maintaining a risk-averse position.... while men charge forward yelling "Hey Bubba, WATCH THIS!" I don't know how much is because in our society typically men get to sit on the couch with the remote when they're injured, while women get to figure out how to still get meals, laundry, errands, etc. done with a cast on.


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## OnYourLeft (Apr 25, 2008)

It is frustrating that more gals don't mtn bike! If you can solve this, let all the mtn bike promoters know the answer!! It is crummy to be on the start line with only a handful of girls to race against, or to not have girlfriends to go out and ride with.

My thoughts on this are: 1) mountain biking is dying, 2) girls are afraid to get hurt out on the trails or they think it's "scary", 3) marketing is mainly to guys, 4) girls don't know mtn biking skills so they never try it! (which should be related to point 3).

Hats off to the Devo riders in Durango - they are doing something right 'cause they have a good showing of junior women on their team!

As for comments: Please just be friendly and announce which way you'd like to pass (left or right) and say hi, have a good ride! as you go by. Very simple. It's what I do when I'm passing all you guys!


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

I think there's a way to get men & women to mountain bike. Just tell them there are places to enjoy riding a bike where they wouldn't have to worry about riding with cars & trucks around. Don't even mention about how dangerous it is until someone BRINGS IT UP. All trails are not super technical anyway, so tell them to ride on the ones they feel comfortable on. One confidence I have observed in my lifetime...Women find ways to do things. That's the best part. They wiil find a way.  They always do.


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

Damitletsride! said:


> ...
> One other thing that puzzles me is how so many girls ski or snowboard, and to me skiing shares so many qualities with mountain biking.. going at a high speed down hill, looking out for changes in terrain, using balance and coordination. Ive scared myself just as many times skiing as mountain biking i could safely say! Yet i have sisters and several girlfriends that ski but say they would never mountain bike. This is something i can't get my head around.


My theory on this is that ski hills are progressive. Think about it. You want to give skiing a try, so you get a lesson and start out on the bunny hill with all of the other families, women, and joe shmoes. Not only are you ensured a positive experience by the instructor, but you also feel right at home with all the other newbs on the hill. Sure, you know there is a dangerous side to the sport, but you also know there is an easy side.

Conversely, most people's first experience mountain biking is being taken on a too tough trail ("Oh, this one's easy! Just go real fast!") by people who aren't always great teachers ("Just don't hit your brakes and you'll be fine!")

In areas like Santos in FL that are set up with a variety of well-marked beginner, intermediate, and difficult trails and offer a skills practice area at the trail head, the numbers of families, women, and joe shmoes giving the sport a try are much more similar to what you'd see on a ski hill.

We can make a similar comparison with road biking and it's plethora of beginner up to "Holy sh!t this is fast!" rides, most of which have a lot of women on 'em.

If we want new people to enter the sport, especially people who aren't thrilled at the idea of broken bones and getting lost in the woods, the sport needs to offer progressive places for people to start.

It's as easy and difficult as that.


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## Damitletsride! (Feb 4, 2004)

Andrea138 said:


> As for greetings, just don't ask women you see on the trail to "kiss it and make it all better," lest you get a swift kick to the testicles.


HAHAHA, Nope


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## pdferguson (Dec 9, 2008)

zarr said:


> I think there's a way to get men & women to mountain bike. Just tell them there are places to enjoy riding a bike where they wouldn't have to worry about riding with cars & trucks around.


I've been browsing this forum today because my wife has expressed interest in learning to ride a mountain bike. I've been a road rider for many years, and she has never shown any desire to ride on the road because she's terrified of getting hit by a car. I bought a mountain bike last year and have been riding a bunch of trails in the Santa Cruz mountains, sending back photos from my phone to show her where I was (e.g. standing atop some beautiful overlook). I think that had an effect, so I've begun researching what a good first MB for her might be.

I think the point about starting off easy is really important, the first few times on a mountain bike can be intimidating even to an experienced road rider (I had no idea how much work climbing could be--I guess they don't have laws about maximum incline in the woods... 

It's also important to make the experience "pay off", by riding to places that aren't accessible by car (there's that beautiful overlook). That's the cool part of mountain biking, it takes you to places that you might not otherwise visit, which is what I hope to share with my wife someday soon.


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

FWIW Berkeley Mike has had some very good posts about getting newbs started- be sure to check the archives for them. I seem to remember him talking about getting people out on relatively easy bike paths and/or dirt roads to begin with, and keeping things short and sweet until they gained some fitness, confidence, and got comfortable with some basic bike-handling skills.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

pdferguson said:


> I've been browsing this forum today because my wife has expressed interest in learning to ride a mountain bike. I've been a road rider for many years, and she has never shown any desire to ride on the road because she's terrified of getting hit by a car. I bought a mountain bike last year and have been riding a bunch of trails in the Santa Cruz mountains, sending back photos from my phone to show her where I was (e.g. standing atop some beautiful overlook). I think that had an effect, so I've begun researching what a good first MB for her might be.
> 
> I think the point about starting off easy is really important, the first few times on a mountain bike can be intimidating even to an experienced road rider (I had no idea how much work climbing could be--I guess they don't have laws about maximum incline in the woods...
> 
> It's also important to make the experience "pay off", by riding to places that aren't accessible by car (there's that beautiful overlook). That's the cool part of mountain biking, it takes you to places that you might not otherwise visit, which is what I hope to share with my wife someday soon.


 I'd like to wish you and your wife many wonderful mountain bike experiences together.---zarr


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## creseis (Apr 4, 2008)

I don't mind being the only girl in the group, nor do I mind having other women to ride with. I have noticed that this year we have more women, which is great. I joined the LUNA Chix and I also lead a few beginner rides. I find that the beginner rides are 90% women and most of them spend a lot of time apologizing for being beginners, but I let them know that everyone starts somewhere and I try to keep them coming on the rides and I advertise our LUNA events to get them hooked. I often think, "How did *I* get hooked?" I turned into a gearhead pretty much from the beginning and nothing anyone says or does could change the way I feel about biking. 

When I was a beginner, I really sucked. I'm still not that great. A guy told me that I should quit because I would never make a good mountain biker, and he was dead serious. His voice in my head is what keeps me doing my beginner rides and pushing myself on days when I don't really feel motivated. I also have a long email that was sent to me 4 years ago, when I started, asking me never to come on rides with a certain group anymore because I was ruining their time by getting myself lost in the woods. So I keep these things as momentums and to remind myself what it is like to be a beginner.

When I am passed by a guy, I just want to be treated like any other rider--not special because I'm a woman. Other women might feel differently, but I just want to be treated as an equal. If I'm riding badly, pass me! I don't want to be treated super nice or tip-toed around, I respect you for being a good rider and I won't think less of you for passing. However, sometimes I can't hear people behind me, so it would be nice to have a heads up before you pass.


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

Wow! People actually told you to quit riding and to stop riding with them? Ouch! I'm glad to see that you didn't let that stop you. Better yet, you now help out with beginners! 

I have always been athletic and never really thought about if I could mountain bike or not, it was whether I wanted to ride or not. I think that might be a difference, being taught that you can do something if you want, rather than being told that you m ight be able to. It a common theme in all these comments: Female vs. male upbringing, skiing with the family vs. "extreme" sports like mtb, and so on.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

I don't think mountain biking would be complete without both sexes on the trail. :cool


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## creseis (Apr 4, 2008)

Oh and this is all very true--skiing vs. mountain biking. Ski hills have a *lot* invested in their business and they have a vested interest in getting as many people out to their mountain as possible. Same thing with golf (although you wouldn't catch me dead on a green!) and other real-estate types of sports. Mountain bikers tend to ride on state land/public land, and the private sector pretty much ignores us and tells us to get lost, and I have found that bureaucrats do not do much to promote mountain biking in any way.


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## jmskrsly (May 10, 2009)

I'm a guy. I got my mom into downhilling, and she got me into xc. She's full time ski patrol and part time bike tour guide. A lot more injuries occur on the slopes, only because it's mainstream. And the more serious injuries are on the slopes. Fifty on snow that will guide you into a fence or twenty on dirt that will stop you in your tracks... IDK.


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## santacruzchick (Jun 27, 2007)

JMskrsly: right on!


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

jmskrsly said:


> I'm a guy. I got my mom into downhilling, and she got me into xc. She's full time ski patrol and part time bike tour guide. A lot more injuries occur on the slopes, only because it's mainstream. And the more serious injuries are on the slopes. Fifty on snow that will guide you into a fence or twenty on dirt that will stop you in your tracks... IDK.


My moms is a ski person too. She says it's somewhat more dangerous on the easy slopes because the noobs can crash into you. So so on harder slopes. Let me add. She's 76 years old.


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## creseis (Apr 4, 2008)

zarr said:


> My moms is a ski person too. She says it's somewhat more dangerous on the easy slopes because the noobs can crash into you. So so on harder slopes. Let me add. She's 76 years old.


That's AWESOME!! I felt pretty cool because I got my mom to rent a beach cruiser in SC  I swear I was adopted--I'm the only crazy person in my family with little sense of self-preservation!


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

creseis said:


> That's AWESOME!! I felt pretty cool because I got my mom to rent a beach cruiser in SC  I swear I was adopted--I'm the only crazy person in my family with little sense of self-preservation!


Believe me I'm just as shocked as you are. ...:eekster: ...


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

*contact info*



verslowrdr said:


> on occasion we've tried to memorize each other's email address for future reference


I carry moo mini cards (http://www.moo.com/en/products/minicards.php, NAYY) that have my contact info on them, as well as the URL for the local bike club. I printed them out with bike photos on them from my flickr archive.

gabrielle


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

*contact info*

*deleted double-post*


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## Consuela (Jun 13, 2008)

creseis said:


> Oh and this is all very true--skiing vs. mountain biking. Ski hills have a *lot* invested in their business and they have a vested interest in getting as many people out to their mountain as possible. Same thing with golf (although you wouldn't catch me dead on a green!) and other real-estate types of sports. Mountain bikers tend to ride on state land/public land, and the private sector pretty much ignores us and tells us to get lost, and I have found that bureaucrats do not do much to promote mountain biking in any way.


Ski vs. MTB - Good points. In addition, its very common to rent ski gear the first few times out. Whereas renting mtb isn't all that common. Yes, I know shops rent mtbs, but I suspect their main renters are already hooked and just want to try out a certain frame before buying.

Connie, I'm your bruised-leg-sister again already! :thumbsup: Can't wait for the connect-the-dots jokes once short season hits. The guys in the gym are already looking at me like I'm an abused wife or something. hehe

Have a good ride,
Consuela


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## Epic Eli (Dec 4, 2008)

I joined a local bike club last year, and usually I am the only female on the ride.
The guys were so nice and patience with me, I use to hold them back all the time. They made me feel a part of the group, took the time and tought me pretty much every thing I know.
If not for them I would still be riding fire roads.


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## CycleMainiac (Jan 12, 2004)

I have always been a tom boy playing outside, in the woods, and playing sports. So mtb was just the right mix of skill speed danger and finesse to make me fall in love with it. That and doing it in the woods along the creeks I explored as a kid just makes it more enjoyable. I still ride by swimming holes I found when I was 8 or 9 year old. The funny part to me is it NEVER occurred to me then to take my bike. 

What I wonder about is where are all the black women that kicked my ass in track, basketball, and softball in middle and high school? I grew up with so many phenominal atheletes I am sure they would like mtb too now.


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## santacruzchick (Jun 27, 2007)

CycleMainiac said:


> What I wonder about is where are all the black women that kicked my ass in track, basketball, and softball in middle and high school? I grew up with so many phenominal atheletes I am sure they would like mtb too now.


On that note: where are all the people of color of either gender in outdoor sports?


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Contrarian Opinion*

While I, too, believe in the effect society has on influencing women in mtb I think it is oversold. Without putting too fine a point on it unless an enormous amount of focused effort, a very strong family and cultural influence, or seridipity, women will avoid things that are icky, dirty, sweaty, or seen as dangerous. Notwithstanding that girls will play soccer (who won't ride on our MTB team and will be on crutches time and time again from soccer collisions, don't get me started ) they are still few in number compared to the number of male athletes.

As I have said many time before in this forum the women who ride here are the exception and the women I ride with are not cut from the general feminine cloth. The females I know who ride simply have a very different look in their eyes. I don't think that the examples from Velo Bella, Luna Chix or the local Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona and Austin area women's group rides are any evidence that women will engage in mtb in numbers anywhere near those of men.

I once offered this analogy: 
Boys are like a box of puppies. It doesn't take long for them to tip it over and they will scatter at top speed. Girls are will right the box, climb back in, and continue their chat.

A box of tom boys is another kettle of fish.

That said, I still haven't given up on bringing women into the sport. Further, not everyone, regardless of gender, can be a mountain biker. This photo is from the ride I led last weekend.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

*can't... resist... commenting...*



Berkeley Mike said:


> While I, too, believe in the effect society has on influencing women in mtb I think it is oversold. Without putting too fine a point on it unless an enormous amount of focused effort, a very strong family and cultural influence, or seridipity, women will avoid things that are icky, dirty, sweaty, or seen as dangerous..


I think Mike is right - a lot of women just have no interest in MTB. Just as fewer women participate in most high danger/high dirt/low group sports. Can't we be okay with that, too? I find that a lot of the women's advocates get really upset when you suggest that no matter what, no matter how many safe learning situations, no matter how much armor and despite the efforts of the best teachers, most women would prefer to not do what we do. There is an implication that acknowledge-ing this is somehow anti-femininst or anti-woman.

I used to really think that it was important to get every woman I knew out on the trail, but I have since come to realize that a lot of them are happier when riding cruisers to the farmer's market is the extent of their bike life. Really, how many newbs can you personally take under your wing in a season? How many good, long, fast rides are you willing to sacrifice in a year to a person that really isn't all that into the sport you love? How far out into the desert do you want to be with a person who isn't that stoked? I love teaching, and love seeing people out on the trail that want to be there, but I think that if a person isn't stoked despite barriers and difficulties, chances are all the advocacy in the world isn't going to make MTB a part of their life.

I have had an interesting illustration of this in another sport. JMH and I canyoneer with a lot of the same people we ride with. Because there is a lot more commitment required in a slot, we do not actively campaign to get people to join us. We just can't have someone decide that they want to go back - often, you can't, and SAR is really tough in places like this (see photo illustration of rescue I watched this weekend below). We have found that if a person is psyched, they will ask to go, they will ask to go again, and they will start looking up canyon routes on their own, researching equipment and generally making a commitment without prodding on our part. These people end up being great partners in the backcountry because they truly want to be there. I get really nervous when people want to bring "friends that _might_ like it" or who ask to go so that they can _see if it is fun_. These people are almost always the source of problems related to stress, fear or lack of prep (same applies to bikes). JMH and I have an understanding that we just don't encourage these folks. If you don't look at our pics and think, "OMG I WANT TO STAND IN CHEST DEEP FREEZING WATER FILLED WITH DEAD BIRDS, TOO! THAT LOOKS LIKE SO MUCH FUN!", then it isn't the sport for you, and that is totally OK. You can meet us at the campsite for beers later.

Anyway, just food for thought. 
Cheers,
C

Heli rescue of a climber in Zion last weekend (click for bigger). This is very, very difficult flying. Getting a bummed out cyclist out of the backcountry isn't much easier, just less dangerous in most cases  I am betting that the BC skiiers and boarders out there have similar experiences:
</a

If they had needed to rescue a person in the slot we were in, it would have required getting a rescue team up or down walls like this - being 20 miles out on a trail is really no different, in the sense that either way, it is good to have partners that are committed, prepared and stoked:
<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3521043436/" title="Final Rap 2 by hukee, on Flickr">


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## Swthrtsuzy (Sep 1, 2008)

This is such an interesting thread. It's enlightening to read everyone's responses and see the different experiences and points of view. 

I'm a new rider - only been at it since August 2008, and then only on a whim of the boyfriend who has some coworkers that ride. Never before had I been exposed to any sort of outdoor activities. Never encouraged to go hiking, kayaking, mountain biking, road biking, hell even tubing on the Guadalupe. Girls are supposed to go to the mall, to the movies. We're supposed to like shopping, shoes and getting our hair done. NOT getting stinky, sweaty, dirty, bloody doing the things that boys do. I bought into that for years, but I'm so glad I bought a mountain bike. It's been one of the best decisions of my life.

I do wish that more women would at least give it a try. Not because of women's empowerment or to prove that we can hang with the boys...but just because it gives so much joy and passion...I think it's sad that they're missing out just because they think it's not a girls' activity.


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## Raven6* (Jan 31, 2007)

creseis said:


> When I was a beginner, I really sucked. I'm still not that great. A guy told me that I should quit because I would never make a good mountain biker, and he was dead serious. His voice in my head is what keeps me doing my beginner rides and pushing myself on days when I don't really feel motivated. I also have a long email that was sent to me 4 years ago, when I started, asking me never to come on rides with a certain group anymore because I was ruining their time by getting myself lost in the woods. So I keep these things as momentums and to remind myself what it is like to be a beginner..


Wow, this guy sounded like a real work of art. I can't stand guys or riders who are arrogant and condescending especially to new riders who are just trying to get into the sport and have some fun! He's giving us guys a bad name! Ah well, most of us aren't like that. I'm glad you were able to turn this guy's arrogance into fuel to progress your biking! Hopefully lots of new riders will read your storey and learn from it!


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## creseis (Apr 4, 2008)

DC6* said:


> Wow, this guy sounded like a real work of art. I can't stand guys or riders who are arrogant and condescending especially to new riders who are just trying to get into the sport and have some fun! He's giving us guys a bad name! Ah well, most of us aren't like that. I'm glad you were able to turn this guy's arrogance into fuel to progress your biking! Hopefully lots of new riders will read your storey and learn from it!


I will have you know that after that I joined a few other groups and have not run into any more jerks  I don't hold it against the whole gender!


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Oh boy, a sport with dead birds and freezing water*

Count me out!


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## santacruzchick (Jun 27, 2007)

Berkeley Mike said:


> women who ride here are the exception and the women I ride with are not cut from the general feminine cloth. . . .
> . . . . Boys are like a box of puppies. It doesn't take long for them to tip it over and they will scatter at top speed. Girls are will right the box, climb back in, and continue their chat.


Mike,
While I appreciate your obvious efforts to get as many people involved in mountain biking, and your focus on getting women and girls involved specifically, I have to point out that your whole point of view is stuck in the 1950's on this issue, and that it is that very sexist view, still held by the majority of men and allot of women, that erects barriers for girls to begin mountain biking or outdoor sports in the first place. 
For example, claiming that women who naturally take to mountain biking are not "cut from the general feminine cloth" just proves the point that it is your (culturally formed!) view of what, exactly, is feminine and what is not that seems to have you convinced that 'feminine women' just don't take to mountain biking naturally. 
Also, it is somewhat of an insult to all of us here to be told that because we derive extreme enjoyment in getting physical with our mountain bikes out in the . . gasp! . . dirt! where we might, double gasp! scrape our knees! that we are somehow not feminine. 
Femininity, as it is used in this context, is a social construct. It is both a prescription for a set of behaviors and attitudes which girls are supposed to adopt and live by lest they be shunned or mocked by their wider social group, and a lens through which both men and women are trained to view women. If I had to take my best guess I'd guess that the women that you ride with are not substantially different from the many women mountain bikers I've met/ridden with: they are, in fact, as womanly as any woman, but have simply learned to drop the 'I'm so feminine' facade in favor of having fun and getting what they want out of life. It's a hard thing to do, but well worth it.
Did you ever stop to think if your own attitude was negatively influencing women away from participating in your mountain biking groups? If you project a view of mountain biking in which only 'mannish' women enjoy and excel at the sport, do you perhaps think that women and girls who do not wish to be labled 'tomboy' or 'mannish' or unfeminine will not want to participate for this very reason? 
And, as for the "nurture" argument being overblown, in your estimation, if even you, who as a man has dedicated a substantial amount of time to getting girls and women out on bikes and who is concerned enough about women to keep up with what is happening on the women's board of MTBR, continue to hold onto a view that says, essentially, 'feminine girls/women just don't like that kind of stuff', what do you think the effect is upon a woman growing up and living in a world full of men and (yes) women who believe things about women that are often far, far more regressive than that?
And as for your "Boys are like a box of puppies" example, well, that is cut from the same sexist cloth as the "sugar and spice and everything nice" saying, which is to say that it has nothing to say about the real differences between males and females and everything to say about how socially conceived notions like 'masculinity' and 'feminity' serve only to enforce behavior for the benefit of the current social hierarchy.

Hope you don't take this as a personal attack but rather as constructive criticism and I hope it may at least help you to think about things outside of the rut of gender stereotypes.


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## druranium (Apr 6, 2007)

santacruzchick, thanks for that. The 'box of puppies' thing didn't sit right with me either. So either i'm in the box chatty-cathying with my fellow feminine ladies or i'm out of the box being a tomboy.
Why is there a need to stereotype genders? I guess the question of this thread demands it....
Well I would say that possibly women don't overwhelmingly go for mtb because they haven't been exposed to it or tried it and felt like they didn't enjoy it.
More women than men are raised to be good, be clean, be sweet, and don't make waves...and for some reason at this point in time (at least where I live) a woman on an mtb is a bit of an oddity that people tend to raise an eyebrow at- more than say....a woman on a girls soccer, softball team, or a snowboard.


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## mgregory (Jun 27, 2008)

THANK YOU SantaCruzChick. I was wondering if anybody else finds BerkelyMike's comments a tad sexist.


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## jewels (Mar 17, 2004)

I enjoyed reading everyone's post, esp. santacruzchick and chuky. This weekend we were discussing the topic of feminism and the role parent's play in society's version of feminine.Growing up as a girl pup w/ 3 older brother pups, yes the box was fun. Mother frowned on my fun, but it was fun nonetheless. Funny analogy.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

druranium said:


> santacruzchick, thanks for that. The 'box of puppies' thing didn't sit right with me either. So either i'm in the box chatty-cathying with my fellow feminine ladies or i'm out of the box being a tomboy.
> Why is there a need to stereotype genders? I guess the question of this thread demands it....
> Well I would say that possibly women don't overwhelmingly go for mtb because they haven't been exposed to it or tried it and felt like they didn't enjoy it.
> More women than men are raised to be good, be clean, be sweet, and don't make waves...and for some reason at this point in time (at least where I live) a woman on an mtb is a bit of an oddity that people tend to raise an eyebrow at- more than say....a woman on a girls soccer, softball team, or a snowboard.


Not only that, but lumping women into either "feminine" or "tomboy" makes it sound like you're just predestined from birth. You're girly, or you're one of those oddballs who is "different". Nevermind the negative stereotypes associated with being the "unfeminine" one... People just don't fall neatly into these categories. Yes, at this point in my life, I've pretty much embraced being called a tomboy (despite the fact that I own multiple pink bikes, enjoy wearing completely impractical high heels, etc... )But I can imagine that if my parents had been any less supportive or if I had made just a few different choices, I could still be one of those people who thinks that "going to the mall" is a fun activity, like I did in high school....

There is nothing at all wrong with not wanting to ride a bike, but it should be because you just don't want to, not because you don't want to be thought of as a tomboy, unfeminine, or weird.


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## nagatahawk (Jun 20, 2007)

of the two, mt. bikes and road bike, I think that women like the apparel style for road bike over mt. bikes they look more stylish, I could be wrong. roadies are waay more fashion conscious than mt. bikers in the first place. I am a member of a local mt. bike club and another roadie club. The male/female ration is mutch higher in the clubs than what i find out on the roads and trails. 

I would love to take a mixed group of my roadie friends out on a fun mt. bike ride so I can share the joys of mt. biking. I'm new to the road bike club so let me figure a way to work this out


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

santacruzchick said:


> On that note: where are all the people of color of either gender in outdoor sports?


this is a different discussion entirely and it's been done in Passion or GD. The gist of could be, depending perspective and whether you buy the theory, is that there is a lot of cultural variation in attitudes about outdoors activities that take you away form the city and into the woods. I'll leave it at that, don't want to derail this thread.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Clearly a new language is needed*

"Tomboy" came from a poster here adn with no littel pride. Sexual predispostions are clear at the toddler age. That doesn't mean that things cannot be formed but hardwiring does exists. I've had to dea with Santacruzchicks' stuff before so it is nothing new; very spirited with an edge and often off the mark by virtue of a bias. We all have them. We are our biases.
Me sexist. I am certain that I must be if she says so, being the final abiter, yet my work with women over the last 12 years tells me that differences exist and that certain personalities are immutable. However saying that "guys are like...." or girls are like...." is hardly sexism. Not liking what one hears and calling it sexism is obtuse.

Gotta run. I have two girls to pick up for practice .


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## Swthrtsuzy (Sep 1, 2008)

nagatahawk said:


> of the two, mt. bikes and road bike, I think that women like the apparel style for road bike over mt. bikes they look more stylish, I could be wrong. roadies are waay more fashion conscious than mt. bikers in the first place.


Is that your final answer? :crazy:


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Sexist or acknowledging of gender differences? Anyone who has coached women and men will know that the two groups operate differently, even when the women's group is made up of the toughest chicks you have ever met.

Mike's comments are a generalized illustration meant to highlight typical group dynamic differences - taking them personally renders academic examples useless... Actually, that is a pretty good description of what is wrong with media in general...


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

jewels said:


> I enjoyed reading everyone's post, esp. santacruzchick and chuky. This weekend we were discussing the topic of feminism and the role parent's play in society's version of feminine.Growing up as a girl pup w/ 3 older brother pups, yes the box was fun. Mother frowned on my fun, but it was fun nonetheless. Funny analogy.


I am a pretty strong believer in nurture - of my 32 cousins, my sisters and I are the only women who chose to not have kids, who own businesses or executive positions and who have all had significant athletic histories (our Dad was a marathoner, I knew the phrase "carboload" in 2nd grade). That said, I am still pretty sure that if I were a guy, I would be a lot more willing to go for it on the dirt jumps, and that has nothing to do with my ever being stereotyped as incapable when I was young.

And to avoid the inevitable "but I am different so your argument is wrong" comment, yes, yes, plenty of you get super rad on the dirt jumps. 

My sisters and I checking to make sure we look good before we go shred the slackcountry.


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## nagatahawk (Jun 20, 2007)

Swthrtsuzy said:


> Is that your final answer? :crazy:


like I said I could be wrong.


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## santacruzchick (Jun 27, 2007)

I have never denied that there are real differences between men and women, in fact I referenced that in my last post. But, it is still my contention that those gender differences are amplified by orders of magnitude by the society in which we grow up in. 
From some of the thank you's I've gotten after the last post it does seem that there are at least some women here who have been 'dealing' with you for awhile too.

While I did say that your work with women and girls is appreciated, the very fact that you have done so does not mean that you may not harbor some pretty . .. traditional. . views about women in general. Neither does being the supportive father of two girls in sports. 
I have come to learn that even self-described male feminists sometimes harbor some pretty anti-feminist notions about femininity and women in general. It has been painful for them for me to call them on it in the past, and I realize this is painful for you. It's harder to change actions than attitudes.

I too, have worked in education for awhile and know a bit about the real differences between boys and girls, but I also recognize that much of this difference is due to cultural norms and I try to encourage girls without painting a picture of sports (and math and science and fixing your own stuff when it breaks) as something that 'tomboys' and 'unfeminine' women do.


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## Swthrtsuzy (Sep 1, 2008)

nagatahawk said:


> like I said I could be wrong.


Actually, you're likely right, and isn't that just sad?  (Not that you're right, but what you're right about.)


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## nagatahawk (Jun 20, 2007)

Swthrtsuzy said:


> Actually, you're likely right, and isn't that just sad?  (Not that you're right, but what you're right about.)


if you talking about being fashion conscious, I have male friends that really enjoy the fashion aspect of the riding road bikes. I think this is good, like most guys I really not fashion conscious. My mt. bike is subdued and I like mt. bike apparel that is subdued. road bikes are shiney and flashy and go real fast. I think that my apparel should match the genre. I'm not totally there yet, but I now think matching white bar tape, saddle with matching jersy, shorts and shoes and socks look pretty cool. but i digress.


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## Dogbrain (Mar 4, 2008)

I have been told my a couple different women who either like road biking or bike commuting that they "don't like downhill." Of course they mean descending, not what we would call proper DH. Anyway, the two girls who I did get into MTB gave me some insight on this particular complaint. The first few times out on the trail their default body position was arms strait and locked, ass on saddle, pedals at 6 and 12 with one leg strait and locked. Once I got them into the "attack position" and the bike felt better, their enthusiasm for descending singletrack went up a great deal. I've helped dudes with their body position as well, but it seems more like fine tuning that starting from scratch. I imagine this is rooted in boys having a more rowdy childhood, jumping there huffys off the curb etc, but I usually like to split the odds between nature and nurture 50/50.

Also, a couple people have mentioned the pain/blood aspect. I'm pretty involved in the body modification scene, and I can tell you that the girl/guy ratio much more even. I honestly know more girls who would let me put 6 inch long shark hooks in their back and hang them from the ceiling than girls who will come on a mountain bike ride. For that matter, most girls seem to handle the pain better than the dudes... or at least look more relaxed about it.


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## nofood (Apr 6, 2008)

Been a roadie for about 9 months. My husband is an avid mtb'r. Would love to try mtb! A little chicken......we may give it a try this weekend. Yikes! Question: Clipless on the first try? (I do ride clipless on the road.)


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## nagatahawk (Jun 20, 2007)

I agree with you.
I have ridden with and led women beginners. They make fantastic mt. bikers, probably because of the power to weight ration is better than most mens, being lighter and having strong legs.. and yes like you said the descent are scarey at first, I remember not to long ago being afraid of the descents.


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## nagatahawk (Jun 20, 2007)

nofood said:


> Been a roadie for about 9 months. My husband is an avid mtb'r. Would love to try mtb! A little chicken......we may give it a try this weekend. Yikes! Question: Clipless on the first try? (I do ride clipless on the road.)


If you stick to mild fire roads platforms are good, but considering that you are used to clipless you like me will probably not like platforms.

You may want to consider shin guards to protect you shins. Should your foot bounces off the platforms, the pedal may come around at give you a ding.

Please do go mt. biking you won't regret it. I do both and its really fun!


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## wocrider (Mar 31, 2009)

santacruzchick said:


> But, it is still my contention that those gender differences are amplified by orders of magnitude by the society in which we grow up in.


You rock, santacruzchick.

I get taken aback by comments along the lines of "girls are just different," "girls just don't like to be active" or "girls don't like to sweat" or "girls don't like icky stuff." This may be true for a specific subset of women, but please consider how many of the jobs that are deemed physically demanding, "icky" and generally low-status in this society are done by women, especially women of color. Surely there's more than an essentialist idea of "woman" limiting women in this sport.

It's also hard to put out a blanket reason for the lower number of women in this sport. For many women of color, factors like the cost of a good bike and proximity to trails are can be significant barriers.

- w(oman)o(f)c(olor) rider


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

nofood said:


> Been a roadie for about 9 months. My husband is an avid mtb'r. Would love to try mtb! A little chicken......we may give it a try this weekend. Yikes! Question: Clipless on the first try? (I do ride clipless on the road.)


I think the biggest thing is finding a trail that's easy yet fun to start on. If it's not filled with obstacles, you should be just fine riding clipped in since it should already be a habit to unclip when you're stopping. I would recommend practicing braking on dirt and gravel surfaces before you head out on a trail, just so you get the feel for the differences (dirt, disc brakes, etc.) Even just a few minutes of playing around with braking, cornering and maybe going up and down over a curb will make you feel a lot more warmed up and prepared for the basic things you will need to do on a trail.


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## Swthrtsuzy (Sep 1, 2008)

nagatahawk said:


> if you talking about being fashion conscious, I have male friends that really enjoy the fashion aspect of the riding road bikes. I think this is good, like most guys I really not fashion conscious. My mt. bike is subdued and I like mt. bike apparel that is subdued. road bikes are shiney and flashy and go real fast. I think that my apparel should match the genre. I'm not totally there yet, but I now think matching white bar tape, saddle with matching jersy, shorts and shoes and socks look pretty cool. but i digress.


Oh sure, I like to look good, too. That's why I have pink brake levers on a pink bike and wear a pink helmet that matches it all. But, that an entire group of people might choose one aspect of the sport over another simply because they like wearing lycra instead of baggies is a sad thought. Don't know if it's true, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit.


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

I'm chuckling, because for many years and many, many, many miles I rode a Barney purple GT + bumblebee yellow forks and pedals, most often with whatever shirts and shorts I scrounged up that were one step away from going in the garbage. Fashion police types end up literally yelling at me about one thing or another that I completely failed to notice if we hang out long enough, lol.

But don't even get me started on bike fit and rational durability. Nobody's going to notice the bling kit when you're hoofing out of a remote area after dark!


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

wocrider said:


> You rock, santacruzchick.
> 
> I get taken aback by comments along the lines of "girls are just different," "girls just don't like to be active" or "girls don't like to sweat" or "girls don't like icky stuff." This may be true for a specific subset of women, but please consider how many of the jobs that are deemed physically demanding, "icky" and generally low-status in this society are done by women, especially women of color. Surely there's more than an essentialist idea of "woman" limiting women in this sport.
> 
> ...


I'm glad to hear about women of color getting into mountain biking. My wife and I are African American, and I owe it ot my wife actually for getting me started in mountain biking. Actually just the biking part. She wanted me to get a bike during to ride with her in the park. I laughed at first and thought, "Well I rode a bike when I was a kid, but now that I'm grown, it's silly". After a long while I decided to get a bike. One thing led to another, and after a series of events took place, we wound up mountain bikers. I really enjoy it, and am always glad to hear about women riding bikes.  We are in our mid 50's. and don't ever plan on stopping riding. Ladies- ride on. And if you see a middle aged brotha out there trying to pick up the slack...just might be zarry zarr.  take care.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I don't do jumps*

and I qualify as a guy pretty much.

I just got back from riding with 12 teens and 4 adults. A quick 15 miles at tempo on pave just to get loose. No one broke a sweat. Great stuff. Last practice of the season and Championships are on Sunday. They are ready. Everyone is very excited. I digress.

Nature or nurture; what a morass. My sister-in-law was a plumber, her sisters are all moms, a social worker, a veterinarian, a wedding planner. The plumber does whatever she decides to do and the other girls are good at what they do. Gramma-in-law is a pistol and taught the girls to go after what they want.

I have worked in predominantly female driven organizations since I was 17; retail, hospitals, Public Relations, Senior Care, Teen Treatment, Commercial Art, Community Building. I've worked under and over women all my adult life. I believe I have a pretty decent appreciation of what women can do., most especially those odd and intangible things they can manage that simply elude me.

It has left me in a nice position to work with girls and women in sports. I have experience with three women who coached girls and they have both left the calling pulling their hair out in frustration usually around the issue of commitment. Commitment, from the perspective of an athlete already amidst their avocation of cycling, is just not a question but a solution which they see so clearly. That their acolytes cannot seem to embrace that is usually a deal breaker. After a while the trainers just walk away muttering to themselves after working and reworking behaviors which would so simply have been managed with practice and avoiding "failure", embarrassment, and ultimate resignation. That is not a uniquely feminine conundrum by a long shot but describes these events pretty well.

I guess what I come to, as a volunteer working at the cutting edge of our sport (read:riding sweep a lot) is that the comprehensive work at this level is not very well appreciated by people on the outside. I'm reminded of working in a Psychiatric Hospital after University and people would ask what it was like. How do you answer that question? Yet in the end there were conclusions made and expressed which people would challenge. All you could do it look at them and smile. I have learned over the years to take what comes, not worry too much about the whys, and just be glad they are standing in front of me. My wife helps me with that and tolerates me when I vent or I just go out to the shed and tune bikes over a beer.

In any case that women make the choice to mtb describes them as different from other women from the get-go. I feel the same way about most of the women who contribute here. My feeling? Awe, curiosity, excited, and a bit bewildered and grateful that few can describe their experience clearly and reach me with grace. It is my hope that they, just like my charges, understand that I take them dead seriously and not file them away in some preconception.

What we do here on this silly internet forum is attempt to understand things that few can. Treading here is done with caution. The guidelines, the furniture if you will, has not been laid out, the gender experience in our society is in constant flux, and sometimes personalities displace dialogue. Understanding is illusive, epiphanys rare, and goodwill is our only saving grace.


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## santacruzchick (Jun 27, 2007)

Dogbrain said:


> Also, a couple people have mentioned the pain/blood aspect. I'm pretty involved in the body modification scene, and I can tell you that the girl/guy ratio much more even. I honestly know more girls who would let me put 6 inch long shark hooks in their back and hang them from the ceiling than girls who will come on a mountain bike ride. For that matter, most girls seem to handle the pain better than the dudes... or at least look more relaxed about it.


Wow. Now thats XTREME!


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## creseis (Apr 4, 2008)

nofood said:


> Been a roadie for about 9 months. My husband is an avid mtb'r. Would love to try mtb! A little chicken......we may give it a try this weekend. Yikes! Question: Clipless on the first try? (I do ride clipless on the road.)


I started on the road and then switched to MTB and began with clipless because that was what I had. I don't think I was injured any more or less because of it.


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## nagatahawk (Jun 20, 2007)

Swthrtsuzy said:


> Oh sure, I like to look good, too. That's why I have pink brake levers on a pink bike and wear a pink helmet that matches it all. But, that an entire group of people might choose one aspect of the sport over another simply because they like wearing lycra instead of baggies is a sad thought. Don't know if it's true, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit.


People are funny.

I would like to get some pink cable housing, to match my socks! but my lbs told my that the pink housings they can get are of poor quality. I'll check it out tonight.


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## htpride (Mar 30, 2009)

I see women get discouraged/turned off after a bad fall/crash; they may not have been hurt badly...but they are spooked. I see a lot of women on bikes that don't fit them right hence a poor ride/bad experience. Or they are on a bike not suited for what they are riding.

On the plus side though: Women are far more likely to take clinics and lessons when they feel an issue is prevalent.


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## Damitletsride! (Feb 4, 2004)

Dogbrain said:


> Also, a couple people have mentioned the pain/blood aspect. I'm pretty involved in the body modification scene, and I can tell you that the girl/guy ratio much more even. I honestly know more girls who would let me put 6 inch long shark hooks in their back and hang them from the ceiling than girls who will come on a mountain bike ride. For that matter, most girls seem to handle the pain better than the dudes... or at least look more relaxed about it.


I agree the ratio in this area is alot more even, however i've kown alot of people that are big into body modifications and quite a few of them are one can short of a six pack in the mental health department, but thats a whole other thing. The pain there seems to be a way of forgetting about the problems in real life.


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## nagatahawk (Jun 20, 2007)

htpride said:


> I see women get discouraged/turned off after a bad fall/crash; they may not have been hurt badly...but they are spooked. I see a lot of women on bikes that don't fit them right hence a poor ride/bad experience. Or they are on a bike not suited for what they are riding.
> 
> On the plus side though: Women are far more likely to take clinics and lessons when they feel an issue is prevalent.


I have seen this aspect also. We had a brand new female rider fall on our beginner ride and broke her wrist. I was probably more bummed than she was, I hate to see this happen to anyone on their first group ride. although she told us she wanted to ride again, I am hoping she willl not get discouraged


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## Swthrtsuzy (Sep 1, 2008)

nagatahawk said:


> People are funny.
> 
> I would like to get some pink cable housing, to match my socks! but my lbs told my that the pink housings they can get are of poor quality. I'll check it out tonight.


I think that's just going overboard. But, if you insist....

http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/CA402C00-Jagwire+Ripcord+Pink+Cable++Housing+Kit.aspx

:thumbsup:


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## santacruzchick (Jun 27, 2007)

Well, sorry if this is a double post but my first one didn't seem to work.

For a really great example of the real and prevalent bad attitudes towards women and mountain biking check out the thread near the top of the Arizona forum titled "My wife wants a mountain bike". I wasn't trolling specifically for stuff like that, but ran across it searching for trail info and it was like a bad car wreck you can't tear your eyes away from. Ugh!


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## Damitletsride! (Feb 4, 2004)

Stripes said:


> I will, but it's difficult to take you seriously when you come in here with an avatar that is a bit on the degrading side..
> 
> Ha i thought it was funny when i first saw it
> 
> ...


Hey yeah i'm in Dublin, Ireland. There is'nt alot of female mountain bikers where i live. And i can say WOOW i did'nt expect this many posts on this topic  , there has been lots of input that i hadnt thought about. Bad instructors could be a big reason like some one mentioned, and maybe that girls ar'nt encouraged to take part in these kind of sports when they are younger. I don't have any female friends that mtb!! All my bikers mates are guys, i would like to get some of my female friends to try it though.


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## nagatahawk (Jun 20, 2007)

Swthrtsuzy said:


> I think that's just going overboard. But, if you insist....
> 
> http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/CA402C00-Jagwire+Ripcord+Pink+Cable++Housing+Kit.aspx
> 
> :thumbsup:


what pink cables? ha ha!
this is for the road bike and its almost all black except for the gold wheels. that means pink seat and bar tape? probablly not, it's going to be hard for me to go even white.


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## nagatahawk (Jun 20, 2007)

Damitletsride! said:


> Hey yeah i'm in Dublin, Ireland. There is'nt alot of female mountain bikers where i live. And i can say WOOW i did'nt expect this many posts on this topic  , there has been lots of input that i hadnt thought about. Bad instructors could be a big reason like some one mentioned, and maybe that girls ar'nt encouraged to take part in these kind of sports when they are younger. I don't have any female friends that mtb!! All my bikers mates are guys, i would like to get some of my female friends to try it though.


yeah, guys and girls, a very compeling subject.
Your lucky there are a lot of female mt. bikers in your area. You prabably can meet them by joining a local mt. bike club.


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## Consuela (Jun 13, 2008)

pdferguson said:


> I've been browsing this forum today because my wife has expressed interest in learning to ride a mountain bike. I've been a road rider for many years, and she has never shown any desire to ride on the road because she's terrified of getting hit by a car. I bought a mountain bike last year and have been riding a bunch of trails in the Santa Cruz mountains, sending back photos from my phone to show her where I was (e.g. standing atop some beautiful overlook). I think that had an effect, so I've begun researching what a good first MB for her might be.


PD,

Sounds like you are in the south bay or near by... Once your wife gets an MTB and is comfortable with the basic shifting etc, check out the calendar on www.mere-mortals.org for a Beginner ride. It's a co-ed group, so you can come together.

Cheers,
Consuela


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## poff (Dec 23, 2003)

I think that it strongly depends on where you live. Here in NorCal I see almost equal # of men vs women at least on road bikes. The other day I was slugging up this steep (20+deg) climb on my road bike in my granny and these two ladies just powered by me in their middle rings.


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## htpride (Mar 30, 2009)

santacruzchick said:


> Well, sorry if this is a double post but my first one didn't seem to work.
> 
> For a really great example of the real and prevalent bad attitudes towards women and mountain biking check out the thread near the top of the Arizona forum titled "My wife wants a mountain bike". I wasn't trolling specifically for stuff like that, but ran across it searching for trail info and it was like a bad car wreck you can't tear your eyes away from. Ugh!


Actually, that thread is somewhat disturbing.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

htpride said:


> Actually, that thread is somewhat disturbing.


Disturbing, but sadly not surprising.

It takes an extra stubborn personality to hear things like that and decide to spend the money on a bike and then keep at it for years until you actually become good enough to feel like you proved them wrong.


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## creseis (Apr 4, 2008)

connie said:


> Disturbing, but sadly not surprising.
> 
> It takes an extra stubborn personality to hear things like that and decide to spend the money on a bike and then keep at it for years until you actually become good enough to feel like you proved them wrong.


Wow I am glad I'm single!


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

There's nothing "unfeminine" about a girl on a MTB. To me, its downright sexy as a female tennis player. Go Velo Gals!


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

Advice: When you see female bikers on the trail, think of them as "bikers." Just "bikers."

Don't try to pass them or get all bent outta shape if they pass YOU. With biking, you can never tell by looking at somebody how strong a rider they are. Age, gender, weight- doesn't always give them away.

Don't show off, be condescending or act more macho. Just say, "Nice day," or, "How's it goin'?" as you would with any other rider.

My fiance took me on some really rugged trails last year, and said, "It's nice to finally ride with somebody who doesn't ***** and moan the whole time."

"How many other women _have_ you taken on these trails?" I asked.

He replied, "You're the first!" 

As to why more women don't mtb.......I don't quite understand it myself. Maybe it's more of a solo sport than road riding; perceived to be dangerous (due to media portrayal as "Xtreme"); more responsibilities, esp. w/kids involved.


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## Videogirl32 (Jun 17, 2008)

I've been reading all of the posts on here, and have decided that I must be the exception to the rule here. I didn't even start riding mtb until I was in my 30's. My boyfriend has been riding for years and took me out to an easy trail to see if I would like it. I was nervous as hell that 1st ride because I was using one of his bikes that cost way more than I could afford to replace! lol But, after I crashed the 1st time, didn't get hurt or more importantly damage the bike, I realized just how much fun it is. I am still learning as we live in the flatlands, but travel when we can to other locations to ride. I'm slowly getting more agressive and trying things that still scare me at first glance. I've been very fortunate though because all of the guys I've ever riden with or at least shared the trails with have been nothing but courteous and supportive to me. I've been passed more times than I can count yet whenever they do, I always yield to them and they always say thanks and most even say words of motivation too. Just yesterday I went to move over for two guys that came behind me and they said no stay where your at you are doing great. So that encourged me to keep going and I told them when they were ready to pass to just let me know. Things like that make me want to ride more! Maybe we just have "Southern Gentlemen" (not to be taken as sexist) down here in New Orleans, but sure makes a girl feel good to have the guys encourage you. (read post stating that you should give up riding) Of course words of encouragement from anyone male or female is always welcomed! 

I've bombarded the guys I ride with with questions about how to do certain things, like how to get over logs, etc. and they explain and then demonstrate for me out on the trails. I have to admit mtb is the one thing I've done that is more male dominated that I've never felt out of place doing, nor have I ever been treated in a disrespectful manner doing it. 

In my opinion, for what it's worth, is that most girls don't know about mtb. Until I met my boyfriend I didn't know much about it. Not too mention I've asked a lot of guys that we ride with why their wives/girlfriends don't ride. I get a variety of reasons most of which basically result in the fact that they haven't taken the time with them to teach them the "ropes". Most of the guys are out to ride as fast as possible that we ride with. I think that discourages their w/gf because they don't want to be left behind when they are still insecure and don't have good skills yet. 

I think if more of us were given the opportunity and encouragement more girls would ride. I agree that the marketing and such is not really there for us and we aren't encouraged to do the "extreme" sports. But not all mtb is extreme at least not where I live. Maybe we need to try to get manufactures to market mtb to girls in a different way. Since a lot of us are always looking for ways to lose weight and or get into shape. Perhaps if it were presented in a way to accomplish those things as opposed to be being an extreme sport more female interest would peak. Just some thoughts.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Take off the helmets of the top three World Cup riders and you have fitness models:

-Irina Kalentieva
-Gunn Rita Dahle-Flesja
-Nikki Gudek


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Christine said:


> My fiance took me on some really rugged trails last year, ....


Hey christine, long time no see! CONGRATS on the engagement!


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Well, there is sure a lot of opinion about this topic, interesting.

Certainly if noone you know mountain bikes, then the likelihood of you getting into it as a sport is lower. So to ask why a random woman is strolling the mall vs out on a gnarly trail is not a very useful question.

I would think that the better question would be, if you actually take a newbie (male or female btw) out mountain biking, and they hate it, why is that? And is there a gender difference?

FWIW I know a few guys who would feel very uncomfortable getting dirty, sweaty, and helmet hair and who aren't in shape to work out.

Finally, although teh box o puppies remark made me feel a little "boxed in" as well (haha), Mike does see a lot of youth who join & leave the sport. My question woudl be - why do guys leave the sport, and are these reasons the same as girls' reasons?


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## simian23 (Aug 13, 2004)

*my worthless $.02*

There are a lot of interesting opinions in this thread. I had to think for a while before I could formulate my own answer. I think my view lines up with Impy's the most, though. I don't believe gender is an accurate predictor of enjoyment of mountain biking. I've ridden with older women and younger women. Wives, mothers, daughters (no grandmothers yet). About the only group I have never observed mountain biking are (Asian) Indian women. I'm Indian, so I notice these kinds of things.

I've never noticed any correlation between fitness and gender. Nor have I noticed that women have a greater or lesser willingness to "go for it" than men. Women seem to react to pain differently, if I am allowed to make one generalization, but I wouldn't say men are less affected by it. Men that say men can handle crashes and pain better haven't introduced enough new male riders to the sport. Sometimes it is harder to introduce men to mtn biking. They go TOO hard, because everything is a competition (I'm a guy, FYI), and then they bail of course, and boom goes their pride and they never ride again.

Another generalization: like any other activity, the vibe with women seems different than with men. It's somehow....less mission-oriented. Not that women don't have goals, but the goals always seem to be under constant renegotiation. Guys are like dogs. They run for the goal until collapse. This is often how groups of guys get into the most idiotic riding situations. My ride buddy Steve and I call these "The Worst Idea Ever" rides. This has NEVER happened when I've ridden with women. But this is just my myopic view.

My last generalization is about the extremes of the sport. At some point, women go big, but men keep going bigger. Women go fast, but men keep going faster. There are very few sports where this is not the case - big wall climbing maybe, adventure racing...err cliff diving? It's a physical thing, but not many of us tread such high water. I have an easy time finding women who can crush me on a bike, and men I can crush. In this middle area, it's all pretty much 8 year old soccer. The striker streaking for the goal is as likely to be a girl as a guy.

An interesting side note. My wife is in a class of her own. Riding with her is a very unique experience. My role is much more strongly that of a care-taker. She trusts me explicitly - not just to guide her but also to listen to her. The ride seems to have a much deeper significance, which makes it both more enjoyable but less sustainable.


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## Fiona (Aug 21, 2005)

pdferguson said:


> I've been browsing this forum today because my wife has expressed interest in learning to ride a mountain bike. I've been a road rider for many years, and she has never shown any desire to ride on the road because she's terrified of getting hit by a car. I bought a mountain bike last year and have been riding a bunch of trails in the Santa Cruz mountains, sending back photos from my phone to show her where I was (e.g. standing atop some beautiful overlook). I think that had an effect, so I've begun researching what a good first MB for her might be.
> 
> I think the point about starting off easy is really important, the first few times on a mountain bike can be intimidating even to an experienced road rider (I had no idea how much work climbing could be--I guess they don't have laws about maximum incline in the woods...
> 
> It's also important to make the experience "pay off", by riding to places that aren't accessible by car (there's that beautiful overlook). That's the cool part of mountain biking, it takes you to places that you might not otherwise visit, which is what I hope to share with my wife someday soon.


It worked for me. Sitting in the car after a quick hike and waiting for him to get back with yet more great stories and pictures of what he saw on the trail, got boring pretty quick and I don't bore easily.

OP: Growing up as a country kid meant that we had to be self-entertaining. The boys and girls were expected to swim, ride bikes, and climb trees, among other things. I wasn't discouraged by anyone, I just could give a rats arse about sports and still don't. I love heading out on the trails, but I think it's about seeing new places and exploring more than anything athletic.

As for greetings, I have to agree with Consuela 100%. It's creepy to be singled out for attention and inconsiderate to be ignored.

Fiona


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

Considering how often this subject has been discussed, I think it is destined to forever remain a mystery. Kind of like the origins of the universe


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

simian23 said:


> This is often how groups of guys get into the most idiotic riding situations. My ride buddy Steve and I call these "The Worst Idea Ever" rides. This has NEVER happened when I've ridden with women.


Actually a fairly astute observation. Is has been well established in the backcountry ski/snowboard community that having a woman in your group significantly reduces chances of getting into an avalanche situation. Forget the exact numbers (and there ARE exact numbers), but I do know that we specifically discussed whether or not these stats were distorted by fact that there are fewer women in the BC and it was found that this had been taken into account. Generally speaking, women were statistically shown to be more risk averse than their male counterparts.

Cheers,
C


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## skottt160 (Apr 25, 2008)

I am a little hesitant to post here, as it might seem to be just another post, but what the heck.
JUST MY OBSERVATION which could be quite wrong... Berkely Mike, it seems to me that the way you approach the subject is almost a "women are not as good as men at biking, thus they need my help approach." While you may be helping many people become better at biking, I agree with a few others it seems there might be some attitudes in there that are not the best. I could be wrong however, as I have only seen a few posts of yours. I know if someone had to characterize me by my posts here, well yeah.

Also, with regards to my experiences, I think there are many many guys that would love to take women biking with them. I try and get people to come with me (for people to ride with as much as anything else, gender doesn't really play a part) but I often know they don't have the best experience possible because I am not that great of a teacher of it. I think many guys try, but something that has become natural is incredibly hard to teach. Often, the people I can get to come with me aren't on a fantastic fitting bike, as we usually have to scrounge one, and frankly, I can't really find words on how to best express what one should do. When talking to someone, I often will find myself saying things like keep a moderate amount of speed, so once you go around the corner you make it up the little incline, but these often seem to me to be not that helpful because of a lack of reference point. Just what is a moderate amount of speed to a first time mtber? So, I guess the roundabout of this is, I think in some cases, I would love to take people out, but I think I might hinder the experience more because of an inability to teach. 

Also, one final point. Personally, I derive pleasure, happiness, whatever from doing things that I think not everyone can do. Having unique experiences is something I really enjoy. Going out on the "Worst Idea Ever" rides has a lot of appeal to me, because I know at the end, I could withstand the worst idea ever. I'm not really sure where this comes from in me, but I know it is how I really enjoy things. There are other ways happiness comes my way obviously, but if I finish a ride exhausted and barely able to make it up the last hill, there is an INTENSE satisfaction/pride that comes with it. From talking to others, this doesn't seem to be the prevailing attitude in everyone. I don't know why, but it seems to be more prevalent in men than women. I apologize if that is furthering negative attitudes, that is really not my intention. I guess where someone derives happiness from seems to be a part of it, like when connie was talking about going to the mall earlier in high school. People will do whatever is fun. We just need to convince them that is mountain biking .

Hope this wasn't just mundane reading


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## luckynumber9 (Mar 7, 2009)

deanna said:


> Likely for similar reasons as to why there's fewer women in math/science related career fields. .


I take it you saw lecture on this by a psychologist who is writing a book about it? if so I saw the same lecture.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Impy said:


> Finally, although teh box o puppies remark made me feel a little "boxed in" as well (haha), Mike does see a lot of youth who join & leave the sport. My question woudl be - why do guys leave the sport, and are these reasons the same as girls' reasons?


Excellent question, even for a girl. (Kidding, kidding!)

As I sift through the faces of the guys who have left the sport the most notable factor is in the overwhelming proportion of males who get involved compared to females. That factor is voluntary and for us largely precludes any previous involvement with the sport. Further it must be said that my sample comes from a community that has almost no mtb roots except for mine and a couple of other guys. At El Cerrito and Albany High and the Albany YMCA we have been creating the mtb community for the last 10 years; this is an urban setting. While there are some excellent cyclists in our area they are largely road cyclists who share their riding with a very closely defined group of riders outside our needs.

In the years I have done this I have exactly 2 boys who I would have defined as Mountain Bikers from day one as Freshmen; one was my son last year, the other the son of one of my friends and co-founder in 2002. In our haunt they are a god-sent luxury. Our boys generally have little more cycling experience than that required from neighborhood play. About 5% have a fair mtb history, 5% BMX, 5% DH but of the last 2 categories only 1 ever competed. The rest are pretty much started from scratch from skateboarding or the detritus of traditional sports.

The application of entry-level boys is about 8-10 times that of girls. Boys fall off the wagon because:

they don't like the structure required of group efforts
they aren't athletic
they don't want to train
they don't "measure up" in their own minds
they don't like the riding style
they don't find it enjoyable 
they are busy with academics
they chose, or stayed with, another sport
they don't have the equipment they need (or want) 
they don't have the support at home
they have career ending non-bike related injury

Having said that even when 25% do fall away it leaves you with lots of guys and a portion of those guys will hang for a season or two. Further while they may leave the team the fact that they have been matriculated to some degree means that you learn not to be surprised when you see them riding out in the canyon with their friends and ALWAYS make a great fuss about their contribution to the team.

Girls who have some cycling history directly from their fathers or have cycling traditions in their families, about 1/4 of the girls' sample, stick like glue. The one girl I had at the YMCA was simply a tough nut by any definition and I saw her leading her dad out in Wildcat one day wearing the jersey Chuky gave her.

With girls you lose about 60-80% of the applicants and they do not stay as long, perhaps not until the first race. Athletic girls at the teen age have a long history with softball, soccer, swimming, volleyball, maybe one of the running sports, or gymnastics with all of the incumbent relationships, social support and familial logistical support structures. 
None of these structures exist for the girls in mtb but are not huge factors for boys

If I were to pick one reason effecting the retention of boys, "support at home" and it's nature just might be the biggest, now that I think of it. Feed them, keep them warm, guide them evenly and they tend to stick with us. It also helps if you put them back in the box every once in a while.


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> ...Girls who have some cycling history directly from their fathers or have cycling traditions in their families, about 1/4 of the girls' sample, stick like glue. The one girl I had at the YMCA was simply a tough nut by any definition and I saw her leading her dad out in Wildcat one day wearing the jersey Chuky gave her...


Just getting clarification on this: you're saying about 1/4 of the girls that apply have a cycling history in their family, and most of them are retained?

*crossing fingers that my daughter will bear the torch*


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Cycling in Girls can be a matter of enculturation.*

If they are raised in it by virtue of the family interest then they are a step ahead in accessing cycling over another sport. That the family understands cycling means that support systems for the child and the team are nearly formed and in place. That is a huge step up. It means that the family as a unit understands time, weather, and machinery and that cycling is accessable to the child. That said, though, we need to be mindful of the childs' desires. I know of two girls who ride road who are scared of mtb because it is dangerous. One swims and another plays soccer and spent some time on crutches this season due to a collision. I know of another who will be a freshman from a cycling family. I have ridden with her since 2004 and she is awesome. She will play piano, I think, and not be on the mtb team.:madman: Gotta love her.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

> Girls who have some cycling history directly from their fathers


what about cycling history from thier mothers? Surely that must be there somewhere?


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Cycling Mothers?*

Uh, one. We created 2 of them when they saw how fun it was. They had some familiarity with it but it came from the males. One started commuting once in a while and then more often. At the end of 4 years she was riding with us and sweeping the Girls Frosh/Soph Race. Another rode because all the kids were into it and it was an interest she could share with her husband. Pretty decent rider. We rode the first 25 miles of the Shasta Century together a couple of years ago.

Two of our boys, one of which dropped from the team, have mothers who ride road. Neither is inclined in the least to join us on the dirt. Cycling is much bigger in Berkeley, the next city over to the south.


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

I read an implied "or mothers" in there I guess. 

In fairness, husband and I went on our first major group ride ever this weekend and a woman actually asked if my husband got me into MTB. I had to laugh since the man-who-was-to-become-husband's radar was first pinged when he overheard me mention riding trails to another gal.... but on the other hand I'm STILL a little puzzled that a woman would assume it takes a man to get a female drug into the sport. That wasn't how the question was framed per se and I certainly wouldn't read any evil intent into it, but something of that vibe was still there if you know what I mean.

*sigh* WTH. I just looked at the wild places out the window and wanted to be there instead of inside. Biking on dirt just looked like a great way to go farther and see even more of those places. Doesn't seem like any earth-shattering epiphany from here...


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## poff (Dec 23, 2003)

Cycling is big in Berkeley where I live, but mostly road. I still do not understand why so many women object to the notion that they are different from men. I think that it is great to be different. Also, while I like riding in mixed gender groups I would not want to force anyone into anything. People should make their own decisions and do whatever makes them happy. I am fine if it is not mtb.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Is there some problem with the idea of men starting this sport?*

Or is there some problem with the reality that men drive this sport? It is a pretty simple statistical predominance, not some contrived bias or myth. Having someone ask a guy if he was the one who got his wife riding mtb, or asking the wife if her husband got her started in mtb seems a pretty good guess. All the coaches I know are men except for 4 women. Of the 55 riders at the last Trails Counsil ride there were 4 wives, none of whom entered the sport before their husbands. The 3 other women riders were single women, all three of which I know were started by men. One of the Board members was commenting that the social aspect of the Counsil was to get singles together. As we looked around the gathering there were lots of single men. I was one of two married men who had brought their wives and both of us got them started. The rest of the married guys wives do not ride.

Having said that as a home dad I used to get all kinds of weirdness from moms at the park as I was, statistically, an aberration. They were suspicious of men around their children and for a pretty tender hearted dad it was hard to take. At the other end when my girl cousins would whine about men not understanding about children they would vent at me, clearly the wrong person to vent at, who was in an even worse boat. Yet I had to come to terms with this position and just let it roll of my back.

The human brain, in a process designed to conceptualize data for convenient storage and retrieval, makes accommodations with information and methods. It makes assumptions, draws lines where it sees a need, and makes analogies, and lumps like-things into piles and makes conclusions. It does this so it doesn't have to juggle so much individual data. Hence, cliches, concepts, groupings, policies. That people use them, especially where statistical evidence is clear, just makes things simpler. It isn't always right where specific cases are concerned but if we happen to be that specific case we had darned well better learn to deal with it.

In 1981 we were road riders (The Pack-O-Dogs) and my friends' wife D, a VP at Del Monte, told her husband that she wanted on of those mountain bikes. We thought she was nuts. By 1984 we were all riding rigid mtb all over Tam. Over the years she has been a very infrequent rider and of late, rides little if at all. However she planted the seed for untold hundreds.


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

Actually I have zero issues with saying men started the sport, and having watched my kid & classmates in daycare from baby through toddler now I'll be the very first to point out generalized differences between boys and girls long before societal molding really takes hold. Or to put it another way: testosterone poisoning is quite real IMO (in fairness we're all too scared to mention what estrogen does, lol).

Perhaps it is typical that a man gets a woman into this sport, but I guess I'd never really thought of it that way. It was right up there on my odd-o-meter with "what guy introduced you to hiking/driving/pizza"... my first reaction was genuinely confuzzled "where does the guy automatically come into this?"


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

The media (TV) has the power to make our sport bigger. Why hasn't it done so? Because of the danger factors?


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## brownieinSC (Apr 19, 2004)

I'm from a pretty conservative family where most of the women stay home to raise the kids,etc. (Even though they are still working somehow from the home, along with trying to home school the kids, take care of the house and then when the hubby gets home they have to tend to him ~ WTF? I'll go to work) My sisters were not encouraged as much physically as the boys. Sports like basketball, etc where there was little physical contact or injury could occur were done by the girls. My family is also not physically active. I was not raised with an active lifestyle like what my daughter will be exposed to. People only exercise when they start wanting to lose weight for the summer and then put it back on again over the winter, repeat the rest of their lives. Any regular sport activity seems to end once people begin going to work.
I don't know if my daughter will like cycling or not but I am going to encourage (I can't promise it won't be insisting) her to be active in some sport that she enjoys.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*One day while doing the dishes*



verslowrdr said:


> "what guy introduced you to hiking/driving/pizza"... my first reaction was genuinely confuzzled "where does the guy automatically come into this?"


Well we may all come from women. Women are said to be boxes who come out of boxes who come out of boxes. Men come out of the box and that is it. After that all they create is trouble and smelly laundry. 

Where do men come into this question? Well, so far they have been the answer to mtb and when asking the question "why do more women not mtb" men are the major factor, for good or ill. The biggest complaint about them is that "they don't do it right." The next thought is to try and figure out what "right" is and that is a minefield. One of the great challenges to this idea is in attempting to appreciate the variety of ways women got into this sport and can get into this sport. For some women, just looking out into the world of possibilities is enough. For others, especially in terms of outreach or the adjunctive discovery of a yet-to-be-defined predisposition, the question is far more complicated and poorly understood.

For the women who are already clipped-in there is the question of whether they are representative of women in general vis-a-vis mtb. I do not think so. I know lady CEO's who would never think of mtb as a possible activity. There is a tendency for women to believe that they can do anything and can no longer be limited by a male dominated culture and this has served a wonderful purpose in my lifetime. There is a tendency for women who have achieved a certain goal and, by derivation, through their method believe that all women can do what they have done. It is nice to think so but I believe it represents an incomplete understanding of how people work in a reality.

In the work I have done gathering, training, and maintaining mtb'ers the very first rule is that ALL ARE WELCOME. What I have come to learn, though, is that all are not able to do what we do. That could change. That, I think, is what this is all about.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

What a letdown. I saw the pictures attached icon and figured I'd dive right into some nice pics.

Nothing to see here 

Back to thinking about food and sex.


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> ...Back to thinking about food and sex.


Wow, my husband's posting on here now!


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> ....In the work I have done gathering, training, and maintaining mtb'ers the very first rule is that ALL ARE WELCOME. What I have come to learn, though, is that all are not able to do what we do. That could change. That, I think, is what this is all about.


I like this.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

*Fate has no boundaries.*

All I know is my wife + a friend of mine who taught me to comparison shop (using consumer reports etc.) are the reasons why I got into mountain biking in the first place. Circumstances, ( and dare I say "blessings" ) sometimes settle one's fate. If you told me I would be building and riding mountain bikes 20 years ago, I would have had no idea what you were talking about. What I'm doing here is giving thanks to all who have contributed directly or indirectly to me being into this sport. I like to tell my story and encourage others to enjoy this beautiful sport. I believe in giving back when you receive good things. Thank you.---zarr


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

ok.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> ok.


Yeah I guess you're included in my list too. ...Turkey.


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## druranium (Apr 6, 2007)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Well we may all come from women. Women are said to be boxes who come out of boxes who come out of boxes. Men come out of the box and that is it. After that all they create is trouble and smelly laundry.


Oh No! Not the boxes again...


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## queevil (Feb 17, 2009)

In my part of the world there are quite a few women in MTB. I went on my first group ride with our local club the other day and it was about two women to every three men. Maybe thirty people total. They seem to just be excited to have new people interested in the sport and teaching them to learn to ride well. It's fairly tight knit so people tend to encourage others to participate in the sport regardless of their gender.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*The micro society*

has a huge impact on who participates. MTB in Marin has achieved a superior status over traditional sports at some schools. The larger sample brings out more girls.

While discussing our clubs need for girls my JV Girl said, "all the girls I know already have their sport." We will talk of this further.


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## sweetfilly7 (Jul 2, 2008)

Some girls just don't like to get muddy. Or sweaty. Or bitten by bugs. The same ones that consider camping to be a stay at the Holiday Inn.  (I have a number of friends in the category girly-girl.)


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

*Why do more men NOT dance Ballet ???*

Why ask the obvious???Get on with it.


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

i read a lot of this thread (don't have time to read all of it) and figured i would add my useless two cents.

i have coached/watched my wife develop from a full on couch potato to an elite level mountain biker over the last 4 years. aside from some gifts that she has that are most likely genetic she did have one thing that many others probably do not. she had my 100% support the whole way.

i didn't do this "take the girl on an easy trail" stuff. i put her on tough trails and stayed with her through it all. i encouraged her to ride, to challenge herself. sure there were times when she yelled at me, or even cried, my comeback to that was more often than not, "we are out in the middle of nowhere, only one way to get back to the car and that is get back on your bike."

i don't know what is different about our dynamic, but i do know that many times my patience was put to the test. the focus was always on us riding together and enjoying the experience.

i have personally seen more than one girl get left behind on a trail by a guy that had taken her out riding. that isn't going to help.

how many men have young kids at home and leave the kids with the wife while they go riding? having kids probably eliminates the largest population of women from participating.


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## santacruzchick (Jun 27, 2007)

Whybother,
I think that's valuable input and I'm sure your wife has appreciated your support! 
You've shone a light on another important factor that ends up discouraging women from mountain biking that cannot be linked to genetic predisposition, and that is that domestic/childcare duties very often fall disproportionately on the woman's shoulders (there are studies, and I'll dredge them up if it's required) and this undoubtedly has an impact on how many women decide to devote their valuable time to a demanding sport like mountain biking. 
I applaud you for being one of the very few men I've encountered to recognize this disparity as having a real impact upon womens' lives.


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## dizzybird (May 25, 2009)

i think the major difference is that women are more social and biking is not always a social sport. It's commonly observed that women do things in groups and use activities to bond. When this is the majority approach (not absolutely all women, but majority) you will have a hard time increasing the number of women in the sport because they don't know other women who are involved. It will be a very slow increase but I think eventually it will as women are no longer viewed as feminine and fragile and various sports aren't pegged as very intense or 'hardcore'. 

We have to face that in society we are still catching up and straightening out perceptions. 
I am a very girly girl (shopping and pedicure anyone?) but I don't think being a girly girl and liking outdoor sports/activities are mutually exclusive. I am not very good at biking - still learning. While I do love it, where else do I find that combination in another girl so I have something to relate to? It's not that fun holding up more skilled riders or going alone - but maybe that's just me. I'm very competitive and do better when challenged, but only when I have a chance in hell at not being left in the dust


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## poff (Dec 23, 2003)

There is nothing bad in being left in the dust, the thing about cycling is that there always is someone who is stronger, fitter, more skilled than you. You can only ride more to become better, and this is where all the fun is.


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