# Frame Battle: Azonic Recoil(2003) vs. Iron Horse SGS World Cup(2004)(Scuba Yellow)



## Gnar (Jan 27, 2004)

*Frame Battle: Azonic Recoil(2003) vs. Iron Horse SGS World Cup(2004)(Scuba Yellow!!)*

Post your opinion and why. This could really help me.


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## Frankenschwinn (Jan 20, 2004)

*Sgs*

12 MM Thru axle rear end,

Price.


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## biker3 (Jan 18, 2004)

*dude hands down SGS...*

Ive heard some sketchy things about azonic man. They dont even make their own frames they buy them from a taiwanese manufacturer and sell them as their own. Go for the SGS a proven design(nathan rennie) and you get a 5th E with the evil linkage. The SGS will suit you much better for racing. Ive heard nothing but awsome things about these bikes.


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## snowskilz (Feb 19, 2004)

go with the sgs but buy the pro bike, its got a manitou swinger instead of a progressive. from what ive heard the progressive blows up really easily and the manitou has a better reliability


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## Gnar (Jan 27, 2004)

*I am...*



snowskilz said:


> go with the sgs but buy the pro bike, its got a manitou swinger instead of a progressive. from what ive heard the progressive blows up really easily and the manitou has a better reliability


only getting the frame and the 2004 pro and team models are not available for the frame only.


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## TheSherpa (Jan 15, 2004)

Gnar said:


> only getting the frame and the 2004 pro and team models are not available for the frame only.


How much is a frame?

-TS


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## Gnar (Jan 27, 2004)

*$1500*

with a 5th element, FSA headset, and Race Face seat post


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## Lucky13 (Jan 14, 2004)

*hmmm*

I've seen quiete a few SGSs on the podiums. Azonic? Hmm, don't recall any. Plus: do I have to remind  ? It's SCUBA YELLOW!


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## Gnar (Jan 27, 2004)

*Rootbeer*

I was really hoping they would have a rootbeer model but SCUBA YELLOW will do just fine.


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## Lucky13 (Jan 14, 2004)

*na*

It will do it, altough, red is faster: I have a tomato red bighit, my brother has a tomato red M3. But SCUBA YELLOW will just do it ya know..

Have fun with your new ride when you get it!


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## Alpenglow (Feb 5, 2004)

*Not that my opinion matters anymore than anyone elses here..*

They are both great bikes. Azonic is really similiar to an 02 M1, but its a pound lighter. Both bikes have a 12mm rear thru axel. Both companies have good warranties. The azonic has a normal headtube & the Iron Horse is 1.5. I believe the Azonic has a adjustable geometry. It also has very beautiful welds. They are both horst links with interrupted seat tubes. Flip a coin.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

The Recoil is a real sweet like the M-1, which is a podium winner. The bike is only 2 years old and not many people have it. The geometry is amazing and handles very well. Ask the guys from Go-Ride. They have a lot of info about the bike and will steer you right.


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## smelly (Jan 15, 2004)

biker3 said:


> Ive heard some sketchy things about azonic man. They dont even make their own frames they buy them from a taiwanese manufacturer and sell them as their own.


that's sketchy how?


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## Acme54321 (Oct 8, 2003)

Haha, probably more than half of the companys out there do that. That's how they can sell sweet frames at prices normal people can afford. Hell, if they aren't outsourced to a manufacturer in Asia they're probably outsourced to a builder in the US.


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

smelly said:


> that's sketchy how?


Uhhhh, did Azonic design the frame, put it through CAD drawings (or similar), have a team of pros riding it giving input as far as tweaks to the frame, ride, handling, etc? Or did some Taiwanese company take approximate measurements of an old M1 and sell it to Azonic? Haven't ridden an Azonic, so it might ride as well as an M1, but even if it did I'd still get the SGS. But I'm a bit biased. 

dante


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## Moriority (Jan 29, 2004)

I would go with the recoil. High quality construction for the price, Strong, adjustable, and the romic is easy to adjust. The SGS has the Super Gay 1.5 head tube. There isn't even a DH fork with a 1.5 steer tube. WTF??? I know a lot of guys with Eliminators and they have taken quite the beating and come back for more. They are both made in Taiwan so someone else building it doesn't really count does it??


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Moriority said:


> I would go with the recoil. High quality construction for the price, Strong, adjustable, and the romic is easy to adjust. The SGS has the Super Gay 1.5 head tube. There isn't even a DH fork with a 1.5 steer tube. WTF??? I know a lot of guys with Eliminators and they have taken quite the beating and come back for more. They are both made in Taiwan so someone else building it doesn't really count does it??


obviously you have no clue why the 1.5 is on the bike...there is a reason, and I can fit any regular fork in my SGS that I choose...since it has a 1/1/8th HEADSET.


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## sub6 (Jan 21, 2004)

Jm. didn't you hear dude? Congress passed a law, 1.125 head tubes don't ovalize anymore, so 1.5 isn't needed on a DH bike now.



fwiw, I can understand this debate happening in 2001 or 2002, but jeez, people still don't get it?


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## shabadu (Jan 12, 2004)

Jm, sweet teaser post. 

"...there is a reason"...

What is it, a DC fork with a 1.5 steerer? Or is it something else? Bless us with your knowledge.


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

headtube ovalization.


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## Moriority (Jan 29, 2004)

Jm. said:


> obviously you have no clue why the 1.5 is on the bike...there is a reason, and I can fit any regular fork in my SGS that I choose...since it has a 1/1/8th HEADSET.


 Oh I thought the SGS was a real DH bike. Then it would only need to be compatable with real DH forks. But Turner did it too. I guess they thought it might be cool or something. You just need to use those monster sized 3lb 1.5 head sets or the cluster f#@$ of a reducer thing for a 1.125 headset. Motorcycles run a 1 inch steerer tube, what more do you need? Manitou came up with a standard for freeride when they were never really making freeride forks. They just came up with this new marketing spin to sell stuff. Does anyone else make 1.5 forks? No. I guess cannondale does but they don't count. And when they came up with it everyone laughed. What's the difference? 1.5 is retarded and will go away just like aerobars for mountain bikes, mag wheels, and those egg shaped biopace chainrings.


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Moriority said:


> Oh I thought the SGS was a real DH bike. Then it would only need to be compatable with real DH forks. But Turner did it too. I guess they thought it might be cool or something. You just need to use those monster sized 3lb 1.5 head sets or the cluster f#@$ of a reducer thing for a 1.125 headset. Motorcycles run a 1 inch steerer tube, what more do you need? Manitou came up with a standard for freeride when they were never really making freeride forks. They just came up with this new marketing spin to sell stuff. Does anyone else make 1.5 forks? No. I guess cannondale does but they don't count. And when they came up with it everyone laughed. What's the difference? 1.5 is retarded and will go away just like aerobars for mountain bikes, mag wheels, and those egg shaped biopace chainrings.


wow...there's just too many idiodic statements there to try and correct...

once again, you prove that you haven't got a clue why it exists on this bike, or what the purpose of it is.


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## binary visions (Jan 18, 2004)

Moriority said:


> Oh I thought the SGS was a real DH bike. Then it would only need to be compatable with real DH forks. But Turner did it too. I guess they thought it might be cool or something. You just need to use those monster sized 3lb 1.5 head sets or the cluster f#@$ of a reducer thing for a 1.125 headset. Motorcycles run a 1 inch steerer tube, what more do you need? Manitou came up with a standard for freeride when they were never really making freeride forks. They just came up with this new marketing spin to sell stuff. Does anyone else make 1.5 forks? No. I guess cannondale does but they don't count. And when they came up with it everyone laughed. What's the difference? 1.5 is retarded and will go away just like aerobars for mountain bikes, mag wheels, and those egg shaped biopace chainrings.


Stop talking, you're making a fool of yourself.

The 1.5 headsets are about double the weight of a comperable 1 1/8" set, or about 100g. Are you going to cry about 100g on a DH bike? Especially when it allows for significantly larger bearings, and therefore, better bearing life? They make reducer headsets that work great, or E.13 makes some very nice cups that allow you to run zero stack _bearings_ (it's not a reducer - it's a bearing cup) inside a 1.5 headtube. If not, the spacers work fine, believe it or not - though you clearly have no experience with them and are not qualified to judge them as a cluster-ANYTHING.

Motorcycles do not have to take weight into consideration, so they can run hardened steel headtubes that weigh an ungodly amount. For mountain bikes, a larger diameter allows you to fight ovalization without increasing wall thickness or use harder materials, thereby adding a huge amount of weight.

1.5" steerer forks are stiffer, and offer a much larger contact area with the crown, without being significantly heavier or requiring you to run almost-solid steerers.

Like I said, until you have some actual logic to back up your arguments, you may as well stop arguing.

edit: See, Jm? There're weren't too many mistakes to try and correct. I mean, every sentance in the post was wrong, but as long as you're willing to correct _all_ the statements...


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## MTBsSd (Jan 12, 2004)

I'd jump in the flame fest, but I'm new to the whole techie thing


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## Moriority (Jan 29, 2004)

Everything you said about the 1.5 is true. But do you really need it on a mountain bike is the question. How many people do you know that have ovalized head tubes or bent steer tubes? People ovalize head tubes trying to press head sets in and out the wrong way. Or use they use cheap head sets. Not to offend anyone about the 1.5 but it is my opinion. The stuff I have seen just doesn't do it for me. And oh yeah this is a frame comparison not a discusion about 1.5.


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## binary visions (Jan 18, 2004)

Moriority said:


> Everything you said about the 1.5 is true. But do you really need it on a mountain bike is the question. How many people do you know that have ovalized head tubes or bent steer tubes? People ovalize head tubes trying to press head sets in and out the wrong way. Or use they use cheap head sets. Not to offend anyone about the 1.5 but it is my opinion. The stuff I have seen just doesn't do it for me. And oh yeah this is a frame comparison not a discusion about 1.5.


I don't know where you've been living, but I've seen lots and lots of ovalized headtubes, and a quick search on pinkbike should yield you some good broken steerer pictures.

Your points are still invalid. You are entitled to your opinion but you really shouldn't hold many opinions that you have no basis for.


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## biker3 (Jan 18, 2004)

*dude STFU your a moron...*



Moriority said:


> Everything you said about the 1.5 is true. But do you really need it on a mountain bike is the question. How many people do you know that have ovalized head tubes or bent steer tubes? People ovalize head tubes trying to press head sets in and out the wrong way. Or use they use cheap head sets. Not to offend anyone about the 1.5 but it is my opinion. The stuff I have seen just doesn't do it for me. And oh yeah this is a frame comparison not a discusion about 1.5.


Yes, your really do need it on a mtn. bike. On an XC bike (unless its cannondale) no, but when you see countless bikes like specialized enduros and many other bikes ovalize headtubes with 130ibs riders you know 11/8 isn't stiff in enough in ceraint conditions. A 7in SC wouldn't be possible if it wasnt for 1.5 HT. Your a freakin moron if you think a 11/8 SC is gunna be as stiff as a 1.5 SC fork. To answer your question about why put it on a DH bike since there is no DH 1.5 fork. Its simple its cheaper for Ironhorse to buy/manufacter a 1.5 HT for all there freeride/DH bikes so they have the ability to run either or, then to have some models be 11/8 and others 1.5. Do some research and youll find out your own complete stupidity.


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## sub6 (Jan 21, 2004)

Moriority said:


> Everything you said about the 1.5 is true. But do you really need it on a mountain bike is the question.


"Need" it, no. You don't "need" 8 inches of travel either, nor do you "need" steel cranks, nor do you "need" 2.8" tires, and you certainly don't "need" $300 crowns to lower the ride height of a DH fork by one inch.



Moriority said:


> How many people do you know that have ovalized head tubes or bent steer tubes?


Lots. Funny though, 100% of them are 1" or 1 1/8" head tubes. I've never seen a 1.5 ovalized....



Moriority said:


> People ovalize head tubes trying to press head sets in and out the wrong way. Or use they use cheap head sets.


Uh, no, not anyone I know. Most people I know use Kings, is that too cheap for you?



Moriority said:


> Not to offend anyone about the 1.5 but it is my opinion. The stuff I have seen just doesn't do it for me. And oh yeah this is a frame comparison not a discusion about 1.5.


That's cool, my opinion is that you haven't a clue what you're talking about. It became a 1.5 discussion when YOU brought it up, so don't whine about that, kthanks.


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

Moriority said:


> Oh I thought the SGS was a real DH bike. Then it would only need to be compatable with real DH forks. But Turner did it too. I guess they thought it might be cool or something. You just need to use those monster sized 3lb 1.5 head sets or the cluster f#@$ of a reducer thing for a 1.125 headset. Motorcycles run a 1 inch steerer tube, what more do you need? Manitou came up with a standard for freeride when they were never really making freeride forks. They just came up with this new marketing spin to sell stuff. Does anyone else make 1.5 forks? No. I guess cannondale does but they don't count. And when they came up with it everyone laughed. What's the difference? 1.5 is retarded and will go away just like aerobars for mountain bikes, mag wheels, and those egg shaped biopace chainrings.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, what a tool. You should've included 1 1/8" steerers as another one of those fads that will die out pretty soon to completely show how much of a moron you are. You know, 1" is fine to run the latest 2" travel AMP forks on the market right now. Why change???  Personally, I'm not so sure that 1.5 is *needed* on a DH bike, but I certainly wouldn't list it as a detriment and definitely wouldn't choose one bike over another just b/c one had a gay 1.5 HT...

dante

edit: also, according to go-ride, the sherman breakout (6" version) is 5.4lbs, and the Marz Z150 is 7lbs. Hmmmmmm. Seems they had to beef the sh!t out of the Z150 in order to run it with a 1 1/8 steerer, kinda defeats the purpose...)


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

sub6 said:


> Uh, no, not anyone I know. Most people I know use Kings, is that too cheap for you?


Heh, most of my friends use a FSA Pig DH Pro. Cheaper than Kings and tougher, too (than the non-steel King HS)



sub6 said:


> That's cool, my opinion is that you haven't a clue what you're talking about. It became a 1.5 discussion when YOU brought it up, so don't whine about that, kthanks.


He didn't just bring it up, he used it as the cornerstone of his argument as to why the poster should buy an Azonic over an SGS. "Strong, adjustable, and the romic is easy to adjust. The SGS has the Super Gay 1.5 head tube."

I'd be really surprised if he was using any other of the latest "fads" like disc brakes, rear suspension, etc...

dante


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## [email protected] (Jan 14, 2004)

Not to get into this spark nest, but our name has been dropped a few times. Yeah, the Z150 weighs 1.5 pounds more than the Breakout. But, the Z150 SL weighs the same amount. The Z150 is built like the new DJ forks: steel stanchions and steerer. The fork is built, more or less, to be able to survive guys who abuse their bikes.

I don't want to get into the 1.5 thing. It makes sense in some areas and doesn't make sense in others. Either people will figure out how to maximize the potential of the 1.5 design, or it will stay as a weird 0.5% of the mountain bike market thing, and there will be people calling their local bike shops in 2007 asking for a race for their Cane Creek 1.5 steerer tube, hoping they have an old one laying around because nobody makes it anymore but this guy refuses to give it up. That's how things go in the MTB world and it probably will never change. I am a fan of the 1.5 on the old Turner designs, as it provided for a stronger frame, much like with the Evil Imperial. I don't think it's necessary on the new DHR but it does allow for a headset with bigger bearings. Problem is, nobody makes a headset with bigger bearings, they just make a headset with a huge bearing race.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about a frame decision. As long as we're "asking on Pinkbike" about broken parts, I suggest you ask around for how many people have ruined more than 4 shocks on their Iron Horse because of the incredible amount of play in the rear end of the bike. Also, ask how many people bought American made SGS frames. The answer is the same number of people who bought US-made Recoil frames - Zero. Everybody on the board knows that we don't like to get into discussions between bikes that we don't sell (you may remember the initial ASX vs Bullit fiasco from a couple of years ago) and bikes we do, as obviously we are going to seem biased towards out brands. However, if we wanted to sell Iron Horse (or just about any other brand), we could. There is a reason we don't, and that reason is performance. One other thing, the "how many podiums does this bike have" justification? Total bunk. The guys who podium at World Cups could do it on a Huffy, Rennie wins on an Iron Horse because he gets paid to ride one. If he was riding an Azonic, a Turner, a Karpiel, a Brooklyn...it wouldn't have mattered, he just would have won by larger margins. Just a thought.

I guess I should say the Iron Horse has a lot of promise. The complete bikes come with awesome build kits and the design obviously isn't a poor one, the bike just needs some better execution, and the rear end needs to be stiffened up by about 500%. I can already hear people getting upset when I say this, but next time you have your bike in the stand, grab the rear wheel with one hand and just start twisting it. That's all I can say, I'm sorry if I've offended anybody but I'm just speaking from my experience with working on the SGS bikes.


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## sub6 (Jan 21, 2004)

James @ Go-Ride said:


> I guess I should say the Iron Horse has a lot of promise. The complete bikes come with awesome build kits and the design obviously isn't a poor one, the bike just needs some better execution, and the rear end needs to be stiffened up by about 500%. I can already hear people getting upset when I say this, but next time you have your bike in the stand, grab the rear wheel with one hand and just start twisting it. That's all I can say, I'm sorry if I've offended anybody but I'm just speaking from my experience with working on the SGS bikes.


Weagle is claiming something like 11x stiffer with the '04 rear end. Might as well wait to see if that holds true before jumping to conclusions. The '03 was so vastly different from the '02 that I'd hate to see anybody assume ANYTHING about one model year based on the previous model year, especially when stiffening up the rear end was one of the primary goals with the 2004 model....



James @ Go-Ride said:


> I don't think it's necessary on the new DHR but it does allow for a headset with bigger bearings. Problem is, nobody makes a headset with bigger bearings, they just make a headset with a huge bearing race.


What is it about the new DHR frame that makes it less likely to ovalize? Is the headtube 2x as thick as on the '03s??

Regarding the bearing race, you may wanna check your facts on that:


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## Moriority (Jan 29, 2004)

dante said:


> Heh, most of my friends use a FSA Pig DH Pro. Cheaper than Kings and tougher, too (than the non-steel King HS)
> 
> He didn't just bring it up, he used it as the cornerstone of his argument as to why the poster should buy an Azonic over an SGS. "Strong, adjustable, and the romic is easy to adjust. The SGS has the Super Gay 1.5 head tube."
> 
> ...


I have a Banshee Scream and a Tomac 204 with a Swinger 6 way, have had a bullit, and a dirtworks pirhanna. Every full squish bike I have owned has been close to or over 50lbs. I race DH and hate dirt roadies. I have been mountain biking since the mid 80's and build custom parts for DH bikes all the time. I am not opposed to new stuff but the new stuff has to make sense. Single crowns are for trail riding, you don't need 7 inches of travel on a trail bike. If you do, get a dual crown. 1.5 head tubes on DH bikes are retarded that is just my opinion. Live with it. And I agree Pig pros rock.


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Again, the point of the 1.5" headtube is not so that you can run a manitou breakout+.


This is ground control to major tom.


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

James @ Go-Ride said:


> If he was riding an Azonic, a Turner, a Karpiel, a Brooklyn...it wouldn't have mattered, he just would have won by larger margins. Just a thought.


Hey James, so much for your impartial reviews, can you pick lottery numbers for me as well???  It's fine to say that you personally would prefer the Azonic to the SGS, but to claim definitively that if NR had been riding an Azonic or a Brooklyn he would've been faster seems below you. Stick to the product reviews and kick-ass service, and leave the fortune-telling to the professionals. 

dante


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

not to mention that I'd pay good money to see a top pro competively try to race a huffy...


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

Jm. said:


> not to mention that I'd pay good money to see a top pro competively try to race a huffy...


It might almost be worth the $75 to try to trash a huffy within one run at Plattekill... Layer up in some (really really really good) body armor and see if the single-wall rims will hold up long enough for you to actually crack the swingarm or something. Then walk into Wal-Mart with both pieces of your bike and claim you were JRA, and you're gonna sue. 

dante


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

yeah, i've thought about buying one for a weekend, taking some pictures as I break it on a DH run....

im brave...but I aint _that _brave.


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## Gnar (Jan 27, 2004)

*It's like 50/50...*

This might or might not help. I am looking for a frame thats not a super squish mobile when i ride and does'nt soak up all the jumps. My friend has a V10, and it's a great bike to soak up anything you put in front of it, but getting it off the ground is a biotch. It's good for him because he doesn't really ride with style or finese(If thats how you spell it) so he can just barrel through stuff. I, am the oppisite. I try to find good lines before speeding through stuff, and like to air off jumps. Hope that shows what Im looking for.

PS.. This is for DH mainly, and freeride whenever not DHing(Which is a good deal of the time)


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## jcarp (Mar 3, 2004)

biker3 said:


> Ive heard some sketchy things about azonic man. They dont even make their own frames they buy them from a taiwanese manufacturer and sell them as their own. Go for the SGS a proven design(nathan rennie) and you get a 5th E with the evil linkage. The SGS will suit you much better for racing. Ive heard nothing but awsome things about these bikes.


Hate to break it to you but the SGS is also made in Taiwan. Damn good bike too. What you got against the Taiwanese anyway.


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## BikeMk (Mar 2, 2004)

Gnar said:


> This might or might not help. I am looking for a frame thats not a super squish mobile when i ride and does'nt soak up all the jumps. My friend has a V10, and it's a great bike to soak up anything you put in front of it, but getting it off the ground is a biotch. It's good for him because he doesn't really ride with style or finese(If thats how you spell it) so he can just barrel through stuff. I, am the oppisite. I try to find good lines before speeding through stuff, and like to air off jumps. Hope that shows what Im looking for.
> 
> PS.. This is for DH mainly, and freeride whenever not DHing(Which is a good deal of the time)


The Azonic comes with a 5th Element (at least on the Azonic website it does). The company that makes it is called Xtension, and you can read a bit about their design philosophy if you Google for the company and bike and look around. Basically, they say in not quite perfect English that it's designed to be a good DH bike with fairly nimble handeling characteristics. So they sacrificed a little in straight line topped-out-speed stability for more techincal handling skills. I haven't ridden either bike, but it seems like the Eliminator could fit your style. I've asked around a lot and haven't come across anything bad about the Eliminator--I've been looking at it for a while. Now you have my $0.02


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Myth: The Azonic Recoil comes with a 5th Element (at least on the Azonic website it does). 
That was just a picture. The Recoil comes with a Romic. The resevoir of the 5th hits the seat and is not recommended to be turned around.

If money is a issue, then the Eliminator can be bought really cheap.


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## Gnar (Jan 27, 2004)

*Money is not an issue...*

with these frames. Anything over $1800 is. Im open to opinions on other frames too, if they fit in with my description posted above.


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## Moriority (Jan 29, 2004)

My Banshee jumps like crazy. It is quick handling and bunny hops really well. At least with a fox on it. They are cheap too.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Gnar said:


> with these frames. Anything over $1800 is. Im open to opinions on other frames too, if they fit in with my description posted above.


your description matches the RECOIL. Fast, nimble bike, 8.5" quality travel for World Cup class racing. Lighter and more responsive, this plush ride is tuned for agile descents over technical terrain. Also comes with hub and 12mm axle.


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## sirbikealot (Jan 22, 2004)

Balfa bb7
inexpensive world cup level frame, high quality, pedals very well, corners unbelievably


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## smelly (Jan 15, 2004)

sub6 said:


> Regarding the bearing race, you may wanna check your facts on that:


good job proving yourself wrong with that picture. the ball bearings ARE about the same size in those two headsets. just the races are larger. you see, ball bearings are spherical balls. they roll on circular races. there is an inner and outer race so that the ball bearings stay in place and can rotate. a "cartridge bearing", as is used in both those headsets, is a sealed unit that contains ball bearings and races. the ball bearings roll between the races and there is a seal on the side to keep dirt out. in your picture the spherical balls sitting between those races are about the same size in both the headsets. only the size of the races are different. it's called bearing OD and ID, outside diameter and inside diameter. the ball bearings are the same size, they just have a different OD and ID. 
if you want bigger ball bearings than either a cane creek or chris king, you'd have to get an FSA pig or something else with 1/4 ball bearings.


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## Gnar (Jan 27, 2004)

*What about..*

a 2003 DHR. I could probably find one in the mtbr classifieds or ebay?


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## frank4 (Feb 6, 2004)

I live in Taiwan and I wouldn't be interested in the Azonic if you gave it to me free. No wait, I'ld take it, but then strip it for parts. I'm not kidding. The front triangle is fine but the rear end and pivots are weak. Go with the Iron Horse.


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