# Physical side of riding ebike..



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

If you haven't ridden one, don't take my word for telling you that you will get a workout. Take Bicycling's word...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Imagine the exercise from doing it honestly without a motor to artificially propel you.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

TT, unless this is like the car you drive you got nothin.









I am starting to feel sorry for all of you that are so stressed about e bikes. They are here and not going away. For some uses they are better than a regular bike, at least for me, but I still get the exercise I require and still ride my regular bike. Which feels faster and lighter after getting off the Li-Ion Sled. Just think of it as speed training? I do.


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

The physical side of e-biking?? You mean, like when the battery is dead and you're 20 miles out and now have to pedal and push the 50lb tank back to the trail head?


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Bigwheel said:


> TT, unless this is like the car you drive you got nothin.
> 
> View attachment 1095044
> 
> ...


Who drives a car for exercise?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

the-one1 said:


> Who drives a car for exercise?


E-Bike pilots?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I used to get a crazy good workout riding my EXC. So what?

-Walt


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Glide the Clyde said:


> The physical side of e-biking?? You mean, like when the battery is dead and you're 20 miles out and now have to pedal and push the 50lb tank back to the trail head?


Not just dead batteries. Once they've clocked up a few miles they'll start going faulty occasionally, just like any other complex piece of machinery. Maybe ad a muti-tester to that repair kit?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Bigwheel said:


> TT, unless this is like the car you drive you got nothin.
> 
> View attachment 1095044
> 
> ...


That's exactly correct! You go from tank to nimble as hell! I do the same thing with my turbo S. Ride it with no motor then jump on a true skinny and wow!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Just ripped 30 miles on road with my 11 year old daughter. Quality time spent. Her on my wife's turbo. Works great.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> Not just dead batteries. Once they've clocked up a few miles they'll start going faulty occasionally, just like any other complex piece of machinery. Maybe ad a muti-tester to that repair kit?


Yes, that's funny! Specialized Oh S---t! Control OBD5! $29.95


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

I'm okay with ebikes, btw, in their place of legal riding locations. I trail ride motos and know that a motor does not mean no workout value. I'm better at both forms of two-wheeled play thanks to the other.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Two pieces of info:
1) Been riding e-bikes many times a week for two years without running out of charge or any other malfunction.
2) Rode my e-MTB about 20 miles with the motor off yesterday.
Ergo, if I ever get stuck (unlikely), I'll be able to pedal all but the steepest hills. Big deal if I need to walk up one or two hills.


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

fos'l said:


> Two pieces of info:
> 1) Been riding e-bikes many times a week for two years without running out of charge or any other malfunction.
> 2) Rode my e-MTB about 20 miles with the motor off yesterday.
> Ergo, if I ever get stuck (unlikely), I'll be able to pedal all but the steepest hills. Big deal if I need to walk up one or two hills.


My first post here was TIC. I walk up some hills with my non-ebike. Big deal.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Glide the Clyde said:


> I'm okay with ebikes, btw, in their place of legal riding locations. I trail ride motos and know that a motor does not mean no workout value. I'm better at both forms of two-wheeled play thanks to the other.


I agree, rode Moto for years and raced BMX growing up. Love to ride mtb, pedal assist or standard, great fun.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

the-one1 said:


> Who drives a car for exercise?


Plenty of people drive all over the place in search of exercise, and shuttle and use mini ex's and chainsaws etc.to build trails with. They all have motors. If you only have ever used hand tools to build trail with kudos.

The thing is there is an endless amount of legal e bike terrain in the U.S. of all kinds and once the dust the industry has kicked up settles and those routes recognized even the hard core detractors will be using them. Guaranteed.

It is funny though how I get my sweat on just as easy on my ARe I am just going twice as fast. Fun factor is exponential.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Ok, once again a thread about something in the ebike forum has turned to access.

I get tired of closing these threads. If you have an problem with access create a thread. Please let threads that have nothing to do with access not become about trail access.

I honestly don't have the patience to clean this thread up so I will move all the posts from the last one that had to do with the OP's question to a new http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/official-pedal-assist-bike-access-thread-1023573.html which I will have to summarily throw in the trash I'm sure.

TIA


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

Bigwheel said:


> ...once the dust the industry has kicked up settles and those routes recognized even the hard core detractors will be using them. Guaranteed.


Look dude, you're one of the few people posting on here who actually ride electric bikes with motors that I can respect. Dirt roads, gravel roads and the like... fantastic. But that quote is laughable.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

My ebike gives me one hell of a work out!!

I usually break a sweat! But it all comes down to what you're trying to get out of it. You can either let the bike do all the work and use the bike as a mode of easy transportation outside of a vehicle. Or you can ride it like a true bike and use it's assistance in areas where you need extra power, much like gears on a bike! You pedal but it helps you mechanically get up a hill or maintain a certain speed to get to your destination based on time and/or distance.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ImaBum said:


> My ebike gives me one hell of a work out!!
> 
> I usually break a sweat! But it all comes down to what you're trying to get out of it. You can either let the bike do all the work and use the bike as a mode of easy transportation outside of a vehicle. Or you can ride it like a true bike and use it's assistance in areas where you need extra power, much like gears on a bike! You pedal but it helps you mechanically get up a hill or maintain a certain speed to get to your destination based on time and/or distance.


The gears on a bike do not provide power on a human propelled bicycle. The motor provides the extra power on a motor bike, there is an important distinction in this. Enjoy your emotorbike but do not pretend that the motor does not fundamentally change it. And please don't poach.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

tiretracks said:


> The gears on a bike do not provide power on a human propelled bicycle. The motor provides the extra power on a motor bike, there is an important distinction in this. Enjoy your emotorbike but do not pretend that the motor does not fundamentally change it. And please don't poach.


Poach what? Are you trolling again? 

And no shat. A motor vs gears is different mechanically, but the outcome is the same. You'd have to be so high to not understand that simple concept. I'm just going to assume you have no idea how gears on a bike work and that's why you're so confused on the relation of assistance from both motor & gear setups.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ImaBum said:


> Poach what? Are you trolling again?
> 
> And no shat. A motor vs gears is different mechanically, but the outcome is the same. You'd have to be so high to not understand that simple concept. I'm just going to assume you have no idea how gears on a bike work and that's why you're so confused on the relation of assistance from both motor & gear setups.


No, the outcome is not the same as adding 750 watts or more of on demand power. Even small children understand that if you add a motor it changes everything. There is not relation between electric power and using human power and gear multiplication as much as the emotorbike crowd would love for that rhetoric to take hold. Speaking of not understanding simple concepts.


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## BykerMike (Aug 3, 2016)

Shifting a gear or two to make the bike easier to pedal or adding electrical assist to make the bike easier to pedal in terms of physical exertion from the rider (what the thread is supposed to be about) would be similar if not the same. No?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ImaBum said:


> Poach what? Are you trolling again?
> 
> And no shat. A motor vs gears is different mechanically, but the outcome is the same. You'd have to be so high to not understand that simple concept. I'm just going to assume you have no idea how gears on a bike work and that's why you're so confused on the relation of assistance from both motor & gear setups.


Actually, I think you're the one that's confused. Quite confused, actually.

Gears cannot create more power; power out is the same as power in, regardless of gearing (besides some slight loss due to efficiency of the system). There is no 'power assist' from gears whatsover. You are confusing power with torque.

A motor actually does put more power into the system; that's the fundemental difference.

Here. Learn something today:
Gear Ratios and Mechanical Advantage


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

BykerMike said:


> Shifting a gear or two to make the bike easier to pedal or adding electrical assist to make the bike easier to pedal in terms of physical exertion from the rider (what the thread is supposed to be about) would be similar if not the same. No?


Yes, you're 100% right. Difference being, at the same effort level the motor assisted machine would travel faster due to the motor bumping up the power. How much faster would depend on how much extra power the motor was adding into the system.


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## BykerMike (Aug 3, 2016)

Agreed


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

tiretracks said:


> No, the outcome is not the same as adding 750 watts or more of on demand power. Even small children understand that if you add a motor it changes everything. There is not relation between electric power and using human power and gear multiplication as much as the emotorbike crowd would love for that rhetoric to take hold. Speaking of not understanding simple concepts.





slapheadmofo said:


> Actually, I think you're the one that's confused. Quite confused, actually.
> 
> Gears cannot create more power; power out is the same as power in, regardless of gearing (besides some slight loss due to efficiency of the system). There is no 'power assist' from gears whatsover. You are confusing power with torque.
> 
> ...


Correct. Gears can not create more power. They CAN distribute that power correctly to maintain the desired speed based on your physical input.

A motor (at least on my ebike) takes my input and does the same exact function as gears. I'm not putting in anymore or any less work to maintain 60 rpm. But the motor is helping me keep that pace. So in simple terms - the motor is doing all the shifting for me and giving me the "perfect" gear to pedal in.

I understand that not all e-bikes function this way. There of course will be a variance across the board.

So my input does NOT change. You both act like an e-bike in pedal assist is a simple on/off @ full power function. As if I can rotate (pedals) at 1rpm and do 10 mph. You're foolish to even think that.

For reference - I usually stay in pedal assistance 1. This caps out 10mph. Typically I ride around this speed..maybe 11mph but going up slight hills I can feel the system kick in (usually around 100w) to maintain around 10mph. I still pedaling the same, putting in the same amount of force - all without switching gears.

It's quite magical


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

ImaBum said:


> Correct. Gears can not create more power. They CAN distribute that power correctly to maintain the desired speed based on your physical input.
> 
> A motor (at least on my ebike) takes my input and does the same exact function as gears. I'm not putting in anymore or any less work to maintain 60 rpm. But the motor is helping me keep that pace. So in simple terms - the motor is doing all the shifting for me and giving me the "perfect" gear to pedal in.
> 
> ...


 " Not putting in any less work"" Isn't that the whole point of an e bike? To make it easier? What am I missing here. I get it is only pedal assist.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Actually, it's not magical. It's simple physics that you seem to have some trouble understanding. 

" I still pedaling the same, putting in the same amount of force - all without switching gears." 

This is because the motor is adding power. That's the whole point of a motor in the first place.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

ImaBum said:


> Correct. Gears can not create more power. They CAN distribute that power correctly to maintain the desired speed based on your physical input.
> 
> A motor (at least on my ebike) takes my input and does the same exact function as gears. I'm not putting in anymore or any less work to maintain 60 rpm. But the motor is helping me keep that pace. So in simple terms - the motor is doing all the shifting for me and giving me the "perfect" gear to pedal in.
> 
> ...


I see what you are getting at: on a pedal assist you can maintain your cadence regardless of the terrain, this gives you a workout in that you are maintaining your cadence but allows you to tackle steeper terrain. If you didn't have the pedal assist you could be limited either in fitness on trail or your ability to go as far.

I think the semantics of saying that your bikes pedal assist is the same as shifting confuses. It is the same as shifting as it allows you to tackle more terrain than your fitness would allow or that you would prefer to attach without the pedal assist. My gears allow me to ride more hills than I could on my single speed. My gears also allow me to ride more technical sections that my singlespeed would have a difficult time achieving unless I changed the gearing which would prevent my singlespeed from being as useful on faster sections where I would spin out.

I won't argue whether you get a better work out than riding a non powered bike but I totally believe you get a good work out on the trails you chose to ride. Extended range and the ability to ride up the trail is probably a better and more fun work out than pushing your bike or riding shorter distances or god forbid just riding on the road...no one wants that.

Just understand that asserting that exercise gained on a pedal assist bike is the same as on a mountain bike is disingenuous at best, an outright fallacy at worst. You will expend more energy and gain greater fitness riding a mountain bike 1 mile than pedal assist bike the same distance, unless the pedal assist bike is off, in which case considering the weight of the pedal assist bike you will gain more exercise with it. The modifier here is whether you want to ride that mile on a mountain bike or on a pedal assist bike.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> You will expend more energy and gain greater fitness riding a mountain bike 1 mile than pedal assist bike the same distance, .


Only if the speeds are equal. You can expend the same amount of energy on an e-bike by riding that mile at a higher speed. How much higher depends on how much power the motor is adding on top of what you generate yourself. If you ride at the same speed, the e-bike will take less of your energy (all else being 'equal').


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

leeboh said:


> " Not putting in any less work"" Isn't that the whole point of an e bike? To make it easier? What am I missing here. I get it is only pedal assist.


It depends what you buy the e-bike for. If a guy wants an e-bike to hit the trails and not pedal at all - then that's what it's for. If a guy wants an e-bike to pedal as they are handicap but still use pedal assist to still enjoy a hobby they'd otherwise be shot out of - then that's what it's for. If a guy wants to buy an e-bike to pedal and work out on but isn't fit enough to enjoy longer rides - then that's what it's for.

Anyone can buy an e-bike for any reason. They will either use it or abuse it. Just like how anyone can buy a sports car - they can either rip through the city streets like crazy or just enjoy that extra power when the time is right/safe.



slapheadmofo said:


> Actually, it's not magical. It's simple physics that you seem to have some trouble understanding.
> 
> " I still pedaling the same, putting in the same amount of force - all without switching gears."
> 
> This is because the motor is adding power. That's the whole point of a motor in the first place.


Yeah. What is your point, besides repeating everything I said but in your half ass summary???


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> Only if the speeds are equal. You can expend the same amount of energy on an e-bike by riding that mile at a higher speed. How much higher depends on how much power the motor is adding on top of what you generate yourself.


Well apples to apples comparison means that of course you are using the same speed.

However if these cut off at 10mph, then at 11mph you are using all your own energy and pushing the added weight of the motor and battery so over the speed cut off Ebikes would be a better work out.

So perhaps a flat 1 mile is bad example. How about a 5% grade where most people would have a hard time maintaining 10mph and make it single track? With this scenario you would use more energy to go up the trail at 6mph that most people would average on a mountain bike vs a pedal assist bike. And you would spend more time on the hill at effort as the pedal assist bike could go up that trail at 10mph (give or take).

At 6mph you would spend 10 minutes climbing. At 10mph you would spend 6 minutes climbing. That is 30% less time exercising to go the same distance with the same effort. So the mountain bike I would suspect would be more exercise over the same course for 2 users on these 2 bikes.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ImaBum said:


> Yeah. What is your point, besides repeating everything I said but in your half ass summary???


If you can't tell the difference between what you said and what I said, there really is no point in trying to explain it further to you. Maybe a remedial physics class?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

ImaBum said:


> Correct. Gears can not create more power. They CAN distribute that power correctly to maintain the desired speed based on your physical input.


Man, I wish I could neg-rep you again!

The gears and the motor are not analogous. Although both make going up a hill easier, the gears do so by reducing your speed. The motor adds power which allows you to maintain or increase speed without extra effort on your part.

You could liken eBike riding to only riding a conventional bike on the flat. Yes, it is exercise but nowhere near as good a workout as riding hills.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

rockcrusher said:


> I see what you are getting at: on a pedal assist you can maintain your cadence regardless of the terrain, this gives you a workout in that you are maintaining your cadence but allows you to tackle steeper terrain. If you didn't have the pedal assist you could be limited either in fitness on trail or your ability to go as far.
> 
> I think the semantics of saying that your bikes pedal assist is the same as shifting confuses. It is the same as shifting as it allows you to tackle more terrain than your fitness would allow or that you would prefer to attach without the pedal assist. My gears allow me to ride more hills than I could on my single speed. My gears also allow me to ride more technical sections that my singlespeed would have a difficult time achieving unless I changed the gearing which would prevent my singlespeed from being as useful on faster sections where I would spin out.
> 
> ...


I see what you're saying. And pretty much agree.

An e-bike is a great alternative to a standard bike for those who need to get back into shape, have a handicap or otherwise. To say if you get the same amount of workout from one over the other is indeed a hard question to actually answer.

I think it boils down to how much you're actually willing to put in. I always try to ride to my limit. If I get too tired/sore - I let the bike do most the work and regain myself. This allows me to keep going even further/longer in my exercise where otherwise I'd throw the towel in an be done for the day because I got too tired too early on.

The main reason I bought my bike however was for my knee injury to re-build up that and the other big reason was for the beach. Pedaling on the beach is fun. But loaded up with firewood, beer & other gear - I'd rather not pedal so much on loose sand and have a multi-use tool do the work for me!!


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Mr Pig said:


> Man, I wish I could neg-rep you again!
> 
> The gears and the motor are not analogous. Although both make going up a hill easier, the gears do so by reducing your speed. The motor adds power which allows you to maintain or increase speed without extra effort on your part.
> 
> You could liken eBike riding to only riding a conventional bike on the flat. Yes, it is exercise but nowhere near as good a workout as riding hills.


You can "neg-rep" me all you want. I don't care much for that system. But hey - if it makes you happy - piss off man! I won't stop you  (Random fact - I had I think 3 or so green blocks when I first joined. Once I got an e-bike - all those trolls knocked me down. Go figure. I know how the game works. Not my first forum I'm a member of (or mod for  )

Last time I rode a geared bike (not long ago before I converted) - I could switch gears and maintain the same amount of speed/effort up a hill.

Hell, even on my e-bike with the hills around my home I still have to stand up and pedal! Shows how little you know  But hey - negative rep for you for being whatever you choose to be in life.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I look at it this way. If I have the fitness to go out and ride (or hike or whatever) for 3 hours at a medium to high level of effort, I could do that on a mtb and cover 25 miles or a road bike and ride 60, or an emtb and travel 45. Or, maybe noodle around on an ebike letting it do as much work as possible and cover 20 miles with a beer in my hand. I don't know, I'm generalizing. 

I honestly don't see what the argument is on either side. I get it, you can bust your azz on an ebike, get a workout and also get your power compounded, yay, yippee. Or not. Both are obvious to me and statements of fact, how people choose to get their excercise or even if they choose to do it all has no bearing on anything really.

If the title of the thread was the "The physical side or riding a bike" would anyone be surprised if riders said, "if I pedal really hard for a long time, it's a lot more work than if I coast as much as possible" 

Umm, ok? Good for you?


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> If you can't tell the difference between what you said and what I said, there really is no point in trying to explain it further to you. Maybe a remedial physics class?


I'd love for you to try and explain how a motor is different from gears. I highly encourage you to tell me how/why this is so.

Then I'll give you a pat on the back once again agreeing and repeating everything I said but backed with the actual details of it all to further prove we both agree and are still on the same page.

Your turn, sir.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Harryman said:


> I look at it this way. If I have the fitness to go out and ride (or hike or whatever) for 3 hours at a medium to high level of effort, I could do that on a mtb and cover 25 miles or a road bike and ride 60, or an emtb and travel 45. Or, maybe noodle around on an ebike letting it do as much work as possible and cover 20 miles with a beer in my hand. I don't know, I'm generalizing.
> 
> I honestly don't see what the argument is on either side. I get it, you can bust your azz on an ebike, get a workout and also get your power compounded, yay, yippee. Or not. Both are obvious to me and statements of fact, how people choose to get their excercise or even if they choose to do it all has no bearing on anything really.
> 
> ...


This reminds me a lot like the stair climber in the gym!

Why would anyone go to a gym to "stair climb" when they can just walk up an down the stairs in their home!

Exactly right though - how you choose to use what you have makes a huge difference in how much exercise you really get. There is no right answer.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

How are we even having this conversation!??

If the idea is that gears are advantageous for achieving higher speeds, and motors do the same thing, then ok, I guess. But gears will only get you so far, because at some point you're at your ideal cadence and then it's just a question of power vs. mass/air resistance. 

So it's a pretty specious comparison. By that standard, anything that makes you faster is directly comparable - front suspension is the same as a 500W assist, pneumatic tires are the same as a rocket motor, etc. A fit human (most of us) are limited to something like 200-300W of continuous power. No amount of proper gearing or nice tires will get you going much faster on climbs or flat sections of trail - you're just stuck with the power you have. Double/triple that power, and it's a different story, even if the human is doing exactly the same amount of work and getting a great workout. 

-Walt


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Sorry man, but you completely fail at understanding how machines work.
Again, it's basic physics. If you can't get it, I can't help you. Try a little research on your own.

Again, try starting with something like this:

Gear Ratios and Mechanical Advantage


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gear multiplication in the case of lower gears increases torque, they do not increase horsepower. Motors on the other hand, increase horse power and torque. Gears don't increase horsepower, motors do. The simplest explanation I can form that you might understand.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ImaBum said:


> I think it boils down to how much you're actually willing to put in. I always try to ride to my limit. If I get too tired/sore - I let the bike do most the work and regain myself.


Agree - some put in whatever it takes to keep going when tired and sore, some say 'time for an assist'.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

ImaBum said:


> This reminds me a lot like the stair climber in the gym!
> 
> Why would anyone go to a gym to "stair climb" when they can just walk up an down the stairs in their home!
> 
> Exactly right though - how you choose to use what you have makes a huge difference in how much exercise you really get. There is no right answer.


Why would any one ride a bike with a motor to get a workout when they could just ride a real bike?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> Well apples to apples comparison means that of course you are using the same speed.
> 
> However if these cut off at 10mph, then at 11mph you are using all your own energy and pushing the added weight of the motor and battery so over the speed cut off Ebikes would be a better work out.
> 
> ...


I think it would be more realistic (and easier to grasp) if the sample was over a longer distance and varying terrain. Where I live, we have very few places/riders where anybody is going to averaging over 10mph off-road so pedal-assist would be in play pretty much all the time. To get the same amount of 'exercise', at least in terms of power to the pedal, you would need to ride faster. Of course, that's not likely to be possible on the tight, twisty, rocky and tech terrain we have a ton of around here. There's only so fast you're gonna go on most N.E. trails, motor or not. Probably why I think e-bikes are never really going to get popular for 'real' (ie singletrack) riding in this area. Either that or e-bikers will dumb trails down considerably so they can keep up their speeds, likely even worse than the Strava dinks.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Why would any one ride a bike with a motor to get a workout when they could just ride a real bike?


This really shouldn't have to be explained to you.

Have you ever seen a paralyzed person from the waist down ever drive a car?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

ImaBum said:


> I'd love for you to try and explain how a motor is different from gears. I highly encourage you to tell me how/why this is so.


Power = work/time

Work = force/displacement

If you're riding along expending 100w on the flats and then get to a hill where your work increases because not only are you moving forward, you are now lifting your mass, if you want to keep up the same forward speed, you need to increase your power to say 200w to make up for the increase in work. Or, if you are limited to a 100w, you need to increase your time. Which is what gears do, they change the rate a fixed amount of power is applied. Gear down, go slower at the same level of effort right?

Motors simply increase the amount of power available.

So, you can ride slower up hills using 100w because you have gears or you can pedal up hills using a motor to provide the power in excess of the 100w that you need to keep you at the same speed.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Or in other words:


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

ImaBum said:


> This really shouldn't have to be explained to you.
> 
> Have you ever seen a paralyzed person from the waist down ever drive a car?


Theres a Doc in town who's paralyzed from the waist down who's a complete badazz on a full suspension handcycle. I've seen him drive a car, it wasn't that interesting.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Harryman said:


> Power = work/time
> 
> Work = force/displacement
> 
> ...


Understood. However, that's under the assumption that the e-bike is putting out a fix amount relative to...??

If I have pedal assist on and I'm on flat ground pedaling at 50 rpm going 10mph, it's just that. 50rpm at 10mph.

If I start to go up a hill, how does the bike know there is added force? Am I still putting forth the same amount of effort going up hill as I did on flat ground, still maintaining 50rpm @ 10mph?

Isn't the power kicked in by the motor under the guidance of RPM? So if the system is set to say 50 rpm = 10mph and I start going up a hill - how am I able to maintain that RPM? How does the bike know I'm going up a hill? How does it know to kick in more power to make up the difference?

..I think it's because in order to maintain that same speed, I need to put forth more work. Because the motor is only putting out X amount per my input of XX amount.

I'll agree that power assistance is a ratio of your physical input to its output. lets say 10:1 as an example (easy numbers).


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ImaBum said:


> Isn't the power kicked in by the motor under the guidance of RPM? So if the system is set to say 50 rpm = 10mph and I start going up a hill - how am I able to maintain that RPM? How does the bike know I'm going up a hill? How does it know to kick in more power to make up the difference?


Either through a torque sensor or a cadence sensor. Dunno which your bike has; seems that a torque sensor would make the most sense for off road use to me.

You sure argue a lot for a guy with no idea how your bike works.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/pas-pedal-assisted-system-ebike.715020/


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Either through a torque sensor or a cadence sensor. Dunno which your bike has; seems that a torque sensor would make the most sense for off road use to me.
> 
> You sure argue a lot for a guy with no idea how your bike works.
> 
> https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/pas-pedal-assisted-system-ebike.715020/


My bike has a cadence sensor. Feel free to look it up as you don't seem to think I know what I'm talking about. Rad Power Bikes is the company name.

I'm very well aware of how a bike works. Nice try though


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

ImaBum said:


> Understood. However, that's under the assumption that the e-bike is putting out a fix amount relative to...??
> 
> If I have pedal assist on and I'm on flat ground pedaling at 50 rpm going 10mph, it's just that. 50rpm at 10mph.
> 
> ...


The assumption is that power can fluctuate based on how much is on hand and how the rider chooses to apply it no matter if youre on a bike or ebike. The equations must balance.

If you're riding easy at 50 rpm and Y mph on the flats, you're putting out say 75 watts, if your bike is adding 25w, you've got a total of 100 being used. If you hit a hill and need 200 to carry the same speed, you can either add more (150) on your own, and your torque sensor adds more to get you to 200 or you still pedal easy at 100 and add 100 with a throttle, whatever.

The amount of power you contribute and how your bike is configured to add to that is up to you.

You can as an ebike rider put out as many watts as you'd like, just like on a bike, with the same rider power output, the added power of the motor increases the work which reduces the time which equals a higher speed. Riding at the same speed as a bike means you can choose how much you and the motor split the power needed that a rider alone on a bike must supply.

edit
My understanding with cadence sensors is that at higher rpms, the power increases to an upper limit set by the PAS. Spin like a madman in PAS 2 and get 50% of the available motor power or something like that. Different than a torque sensor. Torque sensors are more expensive and later in coming to the show. The better OEM mtbs all have them.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ImaBum said:


> My bike has a cadence sensor. Feel free to look it up as you don't seem to think I know what I'm talking about. Rad Power Bikes is the company name.
> 
> I'm very well aware of how a bike works. Nice try though


Ummm....in your previous post it appeared you had no idea.

"If I start to go up a hill, how does the bike know there is added force? Am I still putting forth the same amount of effort going up hill as I did on flat ground, still maintaining 50rpm @ 10mph?

Isn't the power kicked in by the motor under the guidance of RPM? So if the system is set to say 50 rpm = 10mph and I start going up a hill - how am I able to maintain that RPM? How does the bike know I'm going up a hill? How does it know to kick in more power to make up the difference?"

See all those question marks? That would lead a reader to believe you are asking a question. Written language is tricky like that.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ummm....in your previous post it appeared you had no idea.
> 
> "If I start to go up a hill, how does the bike know there is added force? Am I still putting forth the same amount of effort going up hill as I did on flat ground, still maintaining 50rpm @ 10mph?
> 
> ...


Understood. I'm sorry my questions were a bit hard for you to comprehend. They were basic questions being asked to understand what others thought about that type of situation.

Of course you were unable to answer and there is no shame in that. I appreciate you trying to help even though you were unable to answer yourself.

Thank you,
-A


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ummm....in your previous post it appeared you had no idea.
> 
> "If I start to go up a hill, how does the bike know there is added force? Am I still putting forth the same amount of effort going up hill as I did on flat ground, still maintaining 50rpm @ 10mph?
> 
> ...





ImaBum said:


> Understood. I'm sorry my questions were a bit hard for you to comprehend. They were basic questions being asked to understand what others thought about that type of situation.
> 
> Of course you were unable to answer and there is no shame in that. I appreciate you trying to help even though you were unable to answer yourself.
> 
> ...


Ok you two have to stop now. Circling the drain doesn't make any sense. ImaBum written rhetorical doesn't come across very well on the internet. For all purposes it looks like you didn't know how your bike works. Slapheadmofo give it a rest for a bit. Dead horses can't get any more beaten.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

rockcrusher said:


> Ok you two have to stop now. Circling the drain doesn't make any sense. ImaBum written rhetorical doesn't come across very well on the internet. For all purposes it looks like you didn't know how your bike works. Slapheadmofo give it a rest for a bit. Dead horses can't get any more beaten.


Not sure how it looks like I don't know how my bike works if I've been explaining in detail about it for the past month or so (that's how long I've owned it). One post alone shouldn't define as a whole. Especially for someone who tends to be in nearly every e-bike thread to argue about nonsense.

But I get what you're saying. Sometimes it's hard to understand what someone is getting at.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Sorry man, but you completely fail at understanding how machines work.


Please guys, give it up. You are talking to someone who does not understand the difference between gears and a motor. Probably the only person on the forum who doesn't, so all of your energy is being expended for him alone. Which makes it a waste of time. Just let him think whatever nonsense he likes.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Mr Pig said:


> Please guys, give it up. You are talking to someone who does not understand the difference between gears and a motor. Probably the only person on the forum who doesn't, so all of your energy is being expended for him alone. Which makes it a waste of time. Just let him think whatever nonsense he likes.


Your troll challenge is accepted!

I do know the difference between gears and a motor. I've actually stated a couple times their differences. My challenge for you is to please quote me where I mention I don't know the difference between a motor and gears. Please please please do so. Otherwise we'll just assume you're trolling, again.

And no cheating by taking things out of context 

I await your response. And hopefully you don't waste too much of anyones time :thumbsup:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> ImaBum written rhetorical doesn't come across very well on the internet. For all purposes it looks like you didn't know how your bike works. Slapheadmofo give it a rest for a bit. Dead horses can't get any more beaten.





Mr Pig said:


> Please guys, give it up. You are talking to someone who does not understand the difference between gears and a motor. Probably the only person on the forum who doesn't, so all of your energy is being expended for him alone. Which makes it a waste of time.


Points taken. You can lead a horse to water...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ImaBum said:


> Troll challenge accepted!
> 
> I do know the difference between gears and a motor. I've actually stated a couple times their differences. My challenge for you is to please quote me where I mention I don't know the difference between a motor and gears. Please please please do so. Otherwise we'll just assume you're trolling, again.
> 
> ...


Word. Hopefully your last one.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

ImaBum said:


> This really shouldn't have to be explained to you.
> 
> Have you ever seen a paralyzed person from the waist down ever drive a car?


Is a paraplegic driving a car working out?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Why would any one ride a bike with a motor to get a workout when they could just ride a real bike?


Fun factor times 10. It's great to know that everyone that posts here is full gas 100% every ride on their traditional mtb. You don't think I've never bonked from riding a traditional bike? Keep in mind their are experienced bikers that have the money and will buy the Levo for pure enjoyment and a break from the same old grind. That's me. It's very different ripping a 50# bike down gnar. Motor or not, it gives me WAY more upper body workout than any of my other bikes.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Is a paraplegic driving a car working out?


If you'd like them to be, sure. Whatever puts a smile on your face. Do note that working out or not, they would still be driving the car 

...would you like to try again? :idea:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ImaBum said:


> My challenge for you is to please quote me where I mention I don't know the difference between a motor and gears.:





ImaBum said:


> A motor (at least on my ebike) takes my input and does the same exact function as gears.


Hmmm...


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Fun factor times 10. It's great to know that everyone that posts here is full gas 100% every ride on their traditional mtb. You don't think I've never bonked from riding a traditional bike? Keep in mind their are experienced bikers that have the money and will buy the Levo for pure enjoyment and a break from the same old grind. That's me. It's very different ripping a 50# bike down gnar. Motor or not, it gives me WAY more upper body workout than any of my other bikes.


 Interesting perspective. Ok fun. I get that. And a better upper body workout. Maybe. It's not full gas. It's stamina, mental toughness, and endurance. Not a crutch. I never find mountain biking a grind. Maybe it's not for everyone. My fun factor comes from physical exertion. Under my own power. Sometimes I walk hills, sometimes I need to stuff more food down my neck. That's me.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Hmmm...


uhhhh..... that has nothing to do with the difference between gears and motors. 
Clearly my statement (along with the rest of the post(s)) was describing how the motor makes pedaling up hills easier, much like how shifting gears up hill makes pedaling easier.

So please, go back and try again. Remember the question was about how gears are different than motors. Not about how they are of assistance 

Also quote the whole post. Snipping a sentence takes things out of context and only someone who can't prove a point would go that route


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Back to the OP some of you know that I ride with my ADA placard I am handicapped so my e bike not only gets me on the trail again, but has been a great way to get in better shape. I have a number of health issues heart failure ,A fib, knees , feet, degernit disc , and so on . Since I have been riding my e bike about 3yrs now I am so much better shape and I got there having fun doing what I love most riding single track , my Drs all of them has seen the difference in me . My speed controller failed on a ride I was 5mi back in the woods I peddle out of the woods on my own all the way back to my motel that's something I could not have done 2yr ago which has given me the ideal that maybe I can ride a reg MT bike again one more trip down porcupine rim trail on a reg MT bike !!!!! that's my Goal !


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

ImaBum said:


> This really shouldn't have to be explained to you.
> 
> Have you ever seen a paralyzed person from the waist down ever drive a car?


This fellow would have a tough time on an ebike.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Hmmm...


I told you debating him wasn't going to work, it'll just hurt. Like trying to slam a revolving door. Or explain the presidential election to a Labrador.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> I told you debating him wasn't going to work, it'll just hurt. Like trying to slam a revolving door. Or explain the presidential election to a Labrador.


My dog is a Libertarian.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

rider95 said:


> Back to the OP some of you know that I ride with my ADA placard I am handicapped so my e bike not only gets me on the trail again, but has been a great way to get in better shape. I have a number of health issues heart failure ,A fib, knees , feet, degernit disc , and so on . Since I have been riding my e bike about 3yrs now I am so much better shape and I got there having fun doing what I love most riding single track , my Drs all of them has seen the difference in me . My speed controller failed on a ride I was 5mi back in the woods I peddle out of the woods on my own all the way back to my motel that's something I could not have done 2yr ago which has given me the ideal that maybe I can ride a reg MT bike again one more trip down porcupine rim trail on a reg MT bike !!!!! that's my Goal !


That is the EXACT reason why I got my e-bike. For health reasons (knee injury).

Keep on riding man! Glad to hear you has a positive outcome with an e-bike and hopefully very little hassle on the trail.


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

This thread? Kill it. With fire.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> My dog is a Libertarian.


I know you can teach dogs a lot of things but filing books is impressive.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Mr Pig said:


> I know you can teach dogs a lot of things but filing books is impressive.


ha!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

leeboh said:


> Interesting perspective. Ok fun. I get that. And a better upper body workout. Maybe. It's not full gas. It's stamina, mental toughness, and endurance. Not a crutch. I never find mountain biking a grind. Maybe it's not for everyone. My fun factor comes from physical exertion. Under my own power. Sometimes I walk hills, sometimes I need to stuff more food down my neck. That's me.


Cool man! Ebikes won't be for everybody. You have great points and I share many with you, sometimes another bike in the stable mixes it up a bit. I've got a road, CX, mtb, singlespeed, and 2 ebikes. Can't have too many! And yes, they all get ridden depending on how I feel or where I rip.


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