# Companionship??



## jl (Feb 23, 2004)

Last week I rode a fairly popular trail, porcupine rim, Moab. There were a few of us that took an afternoon ride on the rim to round-out a weekend trip. During the ride, I saw a situation that made me absolutely livid...

After the 'rim overlook' we headed down the trail. Ten minutes later we came across a women who was riding the trail. She appeared to be a good rider, but also appeared to be tired. It was still along way to the bottom. We asked her if she was okay, and she said she was riding with her boyfriend who was "just up the trail." We said goodbye and headed onward.

My friend "Hollywood" stopped a little farther down the trail after not seeing anyone (aka boyfriend), and talked to the women for a little while. He found out that she had ridden from town. The bad part is that it was around 3:00pm and hot. He hung back a little bit to make sure she was okay. It was apparent she was tired and her handling skills were starting to get shaky.

After riding for another 20 minutes, the Yoda-Rider stopped, and I stopped beside him. I noticed a guy sitting in the shade in the bushes. I turned toward Yoda-Rider, and he said, "Man, that guy's a pig for leaving that girl behind." I'm sure my eyes were as wide as saucers, he didn't see the guy shading himself in the bushes. I turned toward him and said, "How's it going." "Great," he said.

A short time later Hollywood caught up. Yoda asked the boyfriend, "How's the ride?" His 'macho' reply made me cringe, "Fantastic, we rode from town. It's the _only_ way to do this ride." Uh, huh, I thought. Whatever...

The two of them headed out down the trail, and we just watched in amazement, because the guy didn't give her a chance to rest at all. After they got somewhat ahead of us, we proceeded down the trail. About 10 minutes later we passed the women again with no sign of the guy in sight. She wasn't looking to good. Hollywood asked if she needed anything, she said, "No, I'm doing fine." This was not the right answer, I found out later.

About 5 minutes later I passed the guy on the trail. I stopped shortly after passing him to wait for the group and to make sure the women was _really_ okay. Then the guy has the audacity to ask me, "Hey, do you have any water? We ran out of water at the top." My mind reeled, I thought, "Hey, how about I give your lady-friend my water, and you can suffer the rest of the way down Mr. only-way-to-do-this-ride." I new that wouldn't help the situation, so I emptied my bottle into his camelback. He said, "thanks, you really saved us man." I really couldn't stand to be around this guy anymore so I rode ahead about 400 yards and waited for the rest of the group. 

Hollywood ended up giving him some more water out of his pack also. Hollywood asked the lady if she needed anything to eat, and she said, "I have some food in my pack." Hollywood said, you better eat it now, there's still at least 5 miles to the road. At this point she was so drained, I don't think she was thinking straight. They said they were okay, so we proceeded to ride down to the road.

All I can say is that if your a women, riding with your boyfriend, who has 1) made "the ride" more important than your relationship, 2) has taken you on a ride beyond your physical ability, and 3) has put you in a dangerous and life-threatening situation--I would be looking for a new boyfriend. If some man doesn't have the ability to value your relationship more than the ride, I don't think he is going to value the relationship more than other things in his life.

Anyway, please, if a group of riders comes up to you and your out of water, food, whatever, tell them. If your in this type of situation dump your boyfriend immediately, and get on the survival train. The entire scene was one extremely bad example of compassion, and companionship ...

Thanks for letting me vent ...


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## Neen (Sep 27, 2004)

jl ~ thanks for being so concerned about a fellow rider. And you're right, jump on the survival train. Don't be afraid to admit it!!


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## anthrax (Oct 27, 2004)

That is awful!

You guys are great for trying to look after this girl, Well Done!

I don't care wether it is your SO or your riding partner you don't leave some one out on the trail like that. I mean it is one thing to ride ahead but the situation you discribed is completely different.

My gusee is the girl looked to the guy's advise on weather or not the ride was over her head. 

My SO looks to me for advise on ride and I am not affraid to tell the truth. If I think the ride is over their head I tell them that, and they repect that.

This guy needs to drug out and tied to an ant hill

Your group should be comended for trying help this girl out.


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## Blue Sugar (Feb 16, 2004)

Here we have a egregious rush to judgement. The circumstances that led up to this situation are anything but clear. How do we know she didn't tell him to go ahead? How do we know that he hadn't stayed by her side before, only to have her excoriate him for "treating her like a child" or some such thing? "You go ahead, I can take care of myself". And if she had food, why didn't she eat it? And he DID stop and wait, didn't he? And he DID ask for water (for both of them), didn't he? Let's consider the facts- all of them.

As usual, proud to present the other side of the argument.


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## Blue Sugar (Feb 16, 2004)

*Agreed, they didn't pack enough water....*

.....but who's fault is that? You seem to be assuming that it's his, but that's not necessarily a valid assumption. Most likely they both share blame.


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## Capt Tripps (Jan 19, 2005)

Bottom line, They started the dance together, and regardless of physical condition or experience, the stronger rider needs to make sure the weaker is safe, and enjoying the ride. DANCE WITH THE ONE WHO BRUNG YA ! 

There are Deaths in MOAB regularly, from these same circumstances. Folks peeled off slickrock or other trails with baked brains, and lack of water. 

I always ride sweep, and use the motto No rider left behind. 

The guy was on his own trip. Bad News.


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## jl (Feb 23, 2004)

Blue Sugar said:


> .....but who's fault is that? You seem to be assuming that it's his, but that's not necessarily a valid assumption. Most likely they both share blame.


Blue Sugar, I commend you for playing devil's advocate. I don't have all the facts either. What I do know is that this women was not bragging about riding from town. She was also not sending him 'on his way.' She was obviously bonking...

It was also obvious he was being oblivious to her needs and was only focused on riding his bike as fast as he could. His demeaner did change somewhat after we helped out, but in my opinion they should of never reached that situation.

I agree he did stop to wait, but he was 20-30 minutes ahead of her, waiting in the shade. He wasn't riding back to see if anything bad had happened to her.

Yes, he did ask for water, but why didn't he ask for water when the entire group was together? Why did he wait another 20-30 minutes down the trail to ask for water? They ran out at the overlook.

I agree with Capt Tipps, he was the more 'experienced' rider and should have planned better. I somehow had enough water for myself and them. And yes he was on his own trip. I've seen guys do this too many times, not only with SO's, but also with "friends."

The only thing I would blame her for is picking a bad riding partner, and potential bad life partner. I also think she made a mistake by not telling us she was out of water when we first passed her on the trail


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## Blue Sugar (Feb 16, 2004)

OK here are a few last comments on this issue-

The fact that he was waiting in the shade makes total sense given the fact that they were low on water. For all we know, they agreed that he'd go ahead and find shade, to reduce his need for hydration (whether that makes any sense or not). 

And if he was "only focused on riding as fast as he could", why was he waiting stationary in the shade?

And you seem to be assuming that he was the more experienced rider, or had more desert experiece. Why do you assume that, because he's a man and she's a woman? That's a rather sexist thing to assume, it seems to me.

Bottom line is that we don't know what led to that situation, and I'm not going to let you blame the guy simply because he's the guy, and that seems to be what you're trying to do.


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## DamoNNomaD (Apr 7, 2006)

In the grand scheme of things, we can't judge the behavior. But I believe in the little things you can judge the person's level of compassion and attention given under the type of circumstances.

Still, the girl might just be a mouth breather. It might have just been par for the course so to speak for both of them.

It is all about personal responsibility. They were both adults. No one doesn't "let someone rest". As an adult, you rest when you damn well want to.

If you ride your body, and then your mind into oblivion.... well... there is an amount of culpability that falls towards SELF.


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## BadHabit (Jan 12, 2004)

DamoNNomaD said:


> In the grand scheme of things, we can't judge the behavior.


Yeah? He left a rider behind at Moab.


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## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

DamoNNomaD said:


> It is all about personal responsibility. They were both adults. No one doesn't "let someone rest". As an adult, you rest when you damn well want to.
> 
> If you ride your body, and then your mind into oblivion.... well... there is an amount of culpability that falls towards SELF.


Kudos to the OP and his group for taking the time and effort to help out people who were in need of help.

As far as waiting, I agree with DamoN: it's appropriate to check on your riding partners, but the guy might not be quite as "evil" as he was made out to be. When I'm riding with my fiance, I usually ride at a pace I can sustain for long periods without stopping, and he goes on ahead at a harder pace, stops and rests, and then continues when I catch up. He knows I'd rather keep going than stop most of the time, and that I'll let him know when I do need to stop. I detest being "coddled," and have been known to send him ahead to do a trail while I walked back to the car when I realized it was above my ability level (gasp, even in Moab). This doesn't make him a bad riding partner--he knows I'm a capable outdoorswoman and can take care of myself.


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## DamoNNomaD (Apr 7, 2006)

BadHabit said:


> Yeah? He left a rider behind at Moab.


Did he? I thought he was waiting in the shade? 

Is it a giant problem that she was "behind" him? He could have had a discussion about her condition at length a mere few minutes earlier.

He didn't "leave a rider behind at Moab."  That is sensationalist BS and to say it would be taking much for granted that you don't know.


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## DamoNNomaD (Apr 7, 2006)

alaskarider said:


> Kudos to the OP and his group for taking the time and effort to help out people who were in need of help.
> 
> As far as waiting, I agree with DamoN: it's appropriate to check on your riding partners, but the guy might not be quite as "evil" as he was made out to be. When I'm riding with my fiance, I usually ride at a pace I can sustain for long periods without stopping, and he goes on ahead at a harder pace, stops and rests, and then continues when I catch up. He knows I'd rather keep going than stop most of the time, and that I'll let him know when I do need to stop. I detest being "coddled," and have been known to send him ahead to do a trail while I walked back to the car when I realized it was above my ability level (gasp, even in Moab). This doesn't make him a bad riding partner--he knows I'm a capable outdoorswoman and can take care of myself.


Perfect example of another way the situation could have been taken.


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

jl said:


> Blue Sugar, I commend you for playing devil's advocate. I don't have all the facts either. What I do know is that this women was not bragging about riding from town. She was also not sending him 'on his way.' She was obviously bonking...
> 
> It was also obvious he was being oblivious to her needs and was only focused on riding his bike as fast as he could. His demeaner did change somewhat after we helped out, but in my opinion they should of never reached that situation.


And, when people are bonking or getting dehydrated, they start doing stupid stuff, like not eating the food they do have, not stopping to rest, and not asking for help. (I say this as both a bonker and a witness to bonkage.) All the "be an adult" in the world flies out the window in a situation like that.

gabrielle


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## BadHabit (Jan 12, 2004)

DamoNNomaD said:


> Is it a giant problem that she was "behind" him?


Indeed.

Experienced riders are aware of what a giant problem bike accidents can be.


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## BadHabit (Jan 12, 2004)

alaskarider said:


> I detest being "coddled"...


Ok. I rode with my wife when she fell and broke her femur in three places and shattered her elbow--many metal pins in her now. She was in shock. Luckily she did not have to wait for me while I rested in the shade.

We ride together. That's called caring, not coddling.


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## DamoNNomaD (Apr 7, 2006)

BadHabit said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Experienced riders are aware of what a giant problem bike accidents can be.


What in the hell are you talking about? 

There was no accident. They were both "experienced" riders from what I gather.

SOMEONE has to be behing when two people ride no? People all over the trail from what I read. Guy sitting under the shade waiting for a few minutes for his partner?

I am experienced at taking showers so I am fully aware of the giant problem shower accidents can be. 

I fail to see the reason to make up reasons and accountability for an accident that never happened. This is nuts.


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## DamoNNomaD (Apr 7, 2006)

BadHabit said:


> Ok. I rode with my wife when she fell and broke her femur in three places and shattered her elbow--many metal pins in her now. She was in shock. Luckily she did not have to wait for me while I rested in the shade.
> 
> We ride together. That's called caring, not coddling.


Now I see why you are so biased. You caused the accident somehow, and feel guilty about it. You feel there was more that you could... should have done. The reasons for being out there... the sillyness of it all.... You didn't even need to be there.. etc. ad naseum. 

You don't define what coddling and caring is when it comes to another person. If they tell you that you need to back the sticker bush off, then that is what your coddling butt needs to do... back the pizzo back to proper caring. It is not your choice.


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## Zonic Man (Dec 19, 2003)

Male or female, the more experienced rider should watch out for the other--or not take them on the ride at all.


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## DamoNNomaD (Apr 7, 2006)

Rofl!


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## BadHabit (Jan 12, 2004)

DamoNNomaD said:


> Now I see why you are so biased. You caused the accident somehow, and feel guilty about it. You feel there was more that you could... should have done. The reasons for being out there... the sillyness of it all.... You didn't even need to be there.. etc. ad naseum.
> 
> You don't define what coddling and caring is when it comes to another person. If they tell you that you need to back the sticker bush off, then that is what your coddling butt needs to do... back the pizzo back to proper caring. It is not your choice.


I don't know what to make of this except that you are annoyed with me.


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## DamoNNomaD (Apr 7, 2006)

BadHabit said:


> I don't know what to make of this except that you are annoyed with me.


It is impossible for me to become annoyed. I suggest you read it again or simply move on.


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## Kallisti (Feb 15, 2005)

*Bonking*

I have to wonder how many people here have witnessed someone else bonking, and/or have bonked themselves.
At any given time 25-35% of our calories go to the brain for thinking , so when you bonk your thinking process is the first to go. You literally can't think straight. Your judgement calls become very bad. I bonked once while with someone I hadn't ridden with before. She recognized it, and asked a stranger on the trail for food for me. I was shaking and in "survival mode". I had no idea I was hungry until the guy handed me his clif bar. I downed it so fast that when I turned to my friend to offer her some, there was none to offer. Thankfully, she wasn't bonking too!! I felt so selfish at the time, but later she described how bad I looked, and I realized that my brain simply shut off. If I hadn't had a good riding partner that day, someone who stuck with me, and therefore was there to witness the bonk and help me through it, it could have been *very* bad for me. If that stranger hadn't come by, and had extra food to share, well, I hate to think...

Was I ultimately responsible for myself? Oh heck yeah. I'd made an error that day by not eating enough, not knowing the ride. I'd had 20+ years of road riding, and didn't realize that I needed to double my calories to mountain bike. Does that mean that I should have died that day?

Isn't extra safety for ourselves (and of one another) one of the *very* reasons we ride with riding partners?

BTW, since then I've become a competent and conscientious riding partner.



Blue Sugar said:


> And you seem to be assuming that he was the more experienced rider, or had more desert experiece. Why do you assume that, because he's a man and she's a woman? That's a rather sexist thing to assume, it seems to me.


A bit blunt maybe, but I gotta agree with the gist of it...



Blue Sugar said:


> Bottom line is that we don't know what led to that situation, and I'm not going to let you blame the guy simply because he's the guy, and that seems to be what you're trying to do.


I blame him for being a bad riding partner. But BS is right that it has nothing to do the guy being a guy. It could have just as easily been two women or two men, guy in back gal in front...

...but yes, I do think that we can make the judgement call that the guy was a bad riding partner. I'm sorry, but when you're in the desert, you stick with your riding partner. Always. The desert by it's very nature, is a far more extreme environment than most. It merits sticking together, as there is safety in numbers.


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## MTNgirl (Jul 20, 2004)

*thanks for your kindness guys*

first and foremost, to sit in the shade and wait for a rider who is obviously struggling behind, then do the 'wait and blow' is just selfish and inconsiderate. i thought every rider knew the basic rule that even if you are way faster and have to wait for a slower rider, they need to rest too!

above all of the other things about this situation that disturb me is the fact that he cared more about saving face or getting his ride on than giving his girl a much needed break. that is just elementary.

i'm glad this was brought up, as i see this situation on our local trails every summer. 'dude' on double-boinger with helmet, gloves and eyewear, his 'girl' on a crappy rigid bike in shorts and bare hands, no glasses, no helmet, sometimes no water.

ego. leave it at home when you ride with me, please. we're family.


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## kept man (Jan 13, 2004)

Kallisti said:


> I blame him for being a bad riding partner. But BS is right that it has nothing to do the guy being a guy. It could have just as easily been two women or two men, guy in back gal in front...
> 
> ...but yes, I do think that we can make the judgement call that the guy was a bad riding partner. I'm sorry, but when you're in the desert, you stick with your riding partner. Always. The desert by it's very nature, is a far more extreme environment than most. It merits sticking together, as there is safety in numbers.


Nicely put.

One would hope that most people put safety (and compassion) before an object lesson on personal responsibility ...


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## DamoNNomaD (Apr 7, 2006)

"Go ride! I am sick of you riding with me and talking. Just go... I know I am riding way slow for you. It would be better for me if you just rode off ahead for a bit. Please... I will be fine and you will be right there up ahead. Tons of people around. I am not going anywhere. I have food and don't want it... thanks for reminding me though. I have some more water because you gave me all of yours.. more than I wanted. I didn't need what you gave me. I am fine.. you know I always look miserable when we ride this trail. I will tell you when I need to rest, until then don't you worry about it OK? You have to go to work anyway... I will see you at the house later. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE JUST LET ME BE!!!!!! STOP CODDLING ME!"

The guy tried his best, and now he get's railed on for what some other rider saw in a 3 minute period of an entire ride and day? 

Crazy.


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## kept man (Jan 13, 2004)

DamoNNomaD said:


> The guy tried his best, and now he get's railed on for what some other rider saw in a 3 minute period of an entire ride and day?
> 
> Crazy.


First, you have no idea that the guy tried his best ... rather funny from someone challenging the assumption of everyone else.

Last year we had to walk some idiot of out the local trails ... we're talking really close to civilization here, not a desert, nothing nearly so extreme as Moab.

The guy was hung over, had no water, and had managed to auger himself off the side of a skinny bridge. His teeth were broken, his nose was bleeding ... he pretty clearly had a concussion, and was in bad shape.

Well, the first guy who came across him - idiot told him he was fine, sent the guy on his way. That guy runs into us: "I don't know what to do ... that guy back there is in bad shape, etc."

So, we go back ... the guy clearly has scrambled his brain up. We ended up carrying him and his bike out; he was pissed we weren't taking him to his car, that we got another group of riders with a car to take him to the hospital, etc, etc.

Turns out he was hurt pretty badly, and it was a good thing we took him to hospital.

Just because someone says "it's okay" doesn't mean you should believe them. That's not what people mean when they say 'be a good listener.' And just because people should be responsible for themselves doesn't mean you shouldn't use some critical judgement and make some smart calls, even if they are in a mess of their own making ... which *isn't* necessarily the case at all with this woman.

If it had been you, and something bad had indeed happened, how comfortable and comforted would you be throwing up your arms and saying: "Hey, she said it was all good?"


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## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

BadHabit said:


> We ride together. That's called caring, not coddling.


Or, for some couples, it could be called smothering.

The point is that what works for some people doesn't work for others. I run alone on the trails near our house all the time. I could potentially fall and break my ankle, or get attacked by a mountain lion, or have any number of bad experiences. Are my friends to blame because they didn't join me? Of course not. If something bad happens to me on a bike and my fiance isn't there that instant, but rather comes back to find me a little bit later when I fail to catch up, it'll be unfortunate. But, it's our decision to make.

As for the OP, maybe the guy was a jerk; I don't know because I wasn't there. I do believe you have a responsibility to look out for your riding partners, but the definition of "look out" varies based on who, what, where, when, etc. I was just trying to offer another perspective.


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## Carter Taylor (Jan 15, 2004)

*I wonder...*

by the way a few have justified the actions, to most of us who know the area and understand the physiological impact of heat and stress to the body, agree that the actions seemed downright dangerous to the party involved. 
It has not been very long ago that members of the family of MTBR.com had a Moab vacation turn into tragedy. The least we can do in memory, is to educate and help others to prevent this from happening again. 
By what I have read above, I wonder if we could possibly actually have the rider himself responding here?


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Blue Sugar said:


> Here we have a egregious rush to judgement. The circumstances that led up to this situation are anything but clear. How do we know she didn't tell him to go ahead? How do we know that he hadn't stayed by her side before, only to have her excoriate him for "treating her like a child" or some such thing? "You go ahead, I can take care of myself". And if she had food, why didn't she eat it? And he DID stop and wait, didn't he? And he DID ask for water (for both of them), didn't he? Let's consider the facts- all of them.
> 
> As usual, proud to present the other side of the argument.


Because saying your fine, being too tired to eat, and telling people to leave you alone are all VERY standard behaviour from someone who is suffering from dehydration. That's how it happens, and how people die. Once you're starting into heat exhaustion, etc. you can't tell what's happening to you, you're tired, you're not thinking straight. And all you can do is hope the people around you don't take "I'm fine, go ahead" for an answer.

I will tell you from personal experience, that the most dehydrated I have ever been... I finished a ride that went from a 2-3 hour ride to about a 5 hour ride and I still had water and food in my camelback at the end. I was too hot and exhausted to force myself to eat or drink. That was years ago, and since then, I've learned to force myself to eat and drink early. But I don't think it comes naturally and that's what gets people into trouble. You can NOT trust someone you suspect of being dehydrated or having heat exhaustion to be rational enough to be honest with you about whether they need help or not, or if they've been eating and drinking enough.


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## jl (Feb 23, 2004)

Thanks everyone for there comments.

I would like to reiterate the 2 points made clear here.

1. The girl should of stated her condition when we first met up with her. It would of made things easier. So as a lesson is, if you're out of water, please ask some one if they have water, or if they know how much time it will take to finish the ride. Most people are willing to help out especially in Moab where ride can be life-threatening.

2. The guy was not a good leader or supporter for the ride. He wasn't prepared and he wasn't looking out for the 'other rider' he was with. It wasn't a few minutes between the time we saw the girl and when we saw him--it was close to a half-an-hour of riding!!! 

He also didn't prepare correctly for the ride and was arrogant about it. 

"It's the only way to do this ride!" 
"I've never run out of water before on this ride." 

I want people to be aware if they ride with people like this, they are putting themselves in danger. Don't ride with people who put the ride above the groups safety. You wouldn't be defending his actions so vehemently if the excuses sounded like this:
"I've never had a flat on this ride." -- therefore I don't need tubes.
"I've never had hypothermia on this ride." -- therefore I don't need a jacket.

MTNGirl--I liked your summary. Ironically I posted this from the 'Grove.'

Zonic Man--From what I've seen on MTBR you don't know anything about riding with women .

Nomad--you're funny, just like it's hard to judge someone in '3 minutes,' it's hard to judge someone after 3 post on the lyceum (or is it?)  (your overused emoticon).

Carter Taylor--That tragedy entered my mind on the trail that day. 

Kept Man--I had to laugh at "it's all good." That was a quote from one of the drunk teenagers we saw with the broken down jeep on slickrock (after the porcupine ride). They were 'walking to town.' My friend Bill pointed out that town was in the other direction ... At least they had a penlight and a beers in hand. That could be another post in of itself. 

Moab what a trip!


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## weimie (Apr 21, 2006)

Yikes! I've never really bonked before on a ride but I've been with people who have and it's pretty scary....*NEVER* leave someone behind. If you see they are struggling and slowing down do the right thing and slow you're riding down also.

I have asthma and never know when it's going to come on. I carry my inhaler when I ride and I let my BF know when it's bothering me....he doesn't let me out of his site when I say this. It's all about communication....if you're not riding so hot on a particular day, let the other rider know. Anything can happen out on a trail and your ego shouldn't be the deciding factor in it.


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## BadHabit (Jan 12, 2004)

DamoNNomaD said:


> Not very bright.


Your thinking on this has failed to convince. It's not personal. We can agree that all riders, experienced riders, should be responsible. The level of concern we have for each other will of course vary on many factors, one of which is love. Best wishes; ride safe.


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