# How a Single Speed Makes You a Better Rider



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

I got tired of maintaining the MTB drivetrain over a decade ago. How ridiculous is the idea of a derailleur? If you were riding a motorcycle or off road vehicle on trail would you hang the transmission off the back bumper? It's just dumb. I'm convinced replacing these fragile, vulnerable pieces of crap are a major source of revenue for the MTB industry but that might be another conversation. 

Once I abandon the pinky-toe of the MTB drivetrain I began to develop more as a trail rider. Conservation of momentum became the key component in how I attacked a trail. Learning to keep up on my one speed started me down a path that not only increased my level of enjoyment for riding aesthetically, but it taught me many lessons and increased my technical ablility as a Mountain Biker in general, and I think it's worth thinking about no matter what kind of bike you ride. 

In what is the most obvious situation, climbing, I was forced to climb faster then riders with intact multi-gear drivetrains, at first anyway. The tactic of standing and hammering away from a geared group only works for so long....like an hour. If I was to hang on the longer rides, I couldn't afford to be climbing 50% faster then everyone. By definition I was doing more work and while this would improve my fitness, there reaches a point where everyone on the ride is fit, and so outworking them on the climbs was going to limit me as compared to them. 

What a rider has working for them climbing out of the saddle is their entire body in engaged. The opposing forces of pushing down on the pedal, while pulling up on the handlebar as the hips (where the real power is generates) move forward to drive the foot down is significant. In addition, body mass helps to push that crank arm down. As soon as you sit, you isolate the legs, can't generate nearly as much power, and need more torque to push you up hill, and so a lighter gear is required. The point to make there is climbing a one speed is less about having more strength then a geared MTB rider might think. While riding a SS will make your entire body work, and change your build for more power and less endurance, that's not the real key to hanging tough on long rides. What you lose with a bigger gear and slower cadence is the bio-mechanical rotational inertia. Spinning your legs at high reps give you stability, just like when your wheels turn fast. So when you slow your cadence you become less stable. Balance becomes the key ingredient. Once you develop great balance while standing up on your bike, you can climb slower and slower. Ultimately, if I can climb at the same speed as someone with my same mass, I am doing the same amount of work. As long as I am not spazzing out trying to keep my balance, I am not having to work harder to climb the same hill. Of course, it is inevitable that you will fight it a bit and so the best you can hope for is to approach that ideal and you will be required to work slightly harder then your geared friends, but it's less about gearing and more about balance. Developing this fine-tuned sense of balance with enhance your entire game. Low speed tech sections where you stall, track-stand, hop once or twice, then pedal away, or a lunge over some slick surface on a short punchy climb that brings you to a momentary stand-still, only to hold, then pedal away, or even feeling confident on a rock spine or log ride will all seem like a piece of pie after a while. That will be developed while climbing at a slow cadence on a single speed.

Rolling along on trail presents different challenges when in a mixed group. It's true that sometimes you're on a trail where folks just hit a big ring and drop you. That is unavoidable. In New England that is not very frequent. On the more technical single track, you will be forced to corner faster to keep up. Ironically, cornering faster means better braking technique. A rolling tire has a better friction coefficient than a tire that is attempting to brake. It becomes imperative to brake before you start cornering and exit the turn at maximum speed. The key here is picking your head up and looking through the turn. It feels odd, particularly on sharp turns because you end up turning your head and you lose sight of your front wheel even in your peripheral vision. Proper cornering at speed is crucial because it doesn't take long to spin out of gear and so grabbing too much brake mid turn, then pedaling hard after exiting is not always an option. Conserving that momentum by cornering faster and cleaner then your geared-out crew is another skill you will develop. Once you dial in how to brake and corner on a free rolling tire your game will be that much more polished and you will start dropping people on twisty trail no matter what bike you're on.

Pumping. Once you exceed you ability to pedal faster, which happens quickly, you need to stay as fast-rolling as possible. Pumping everything is the key. Every tiny feature you ride over required your tires to move up, then down. As the rider you have two options. Be heavy, or be light. The idea of pumping is to unweight the bike as the tires roll up the front side of the feature, then be as heavy as possible on the backside, or downhill side of the feature. On a pump track the feature are very regular shapes. Rollers, and whoops. On a Single Speed Hard Tail the trail become a pump track. Every rise or root has a front side and back side. While geared riders, particularly those on dualies, can ride passively, letting the bike eat chatter and absorb terrain then pedal to make up for the lost kinetic energy, we don't have that option once at speed. We have to unweight and then pump, avoiding the slowing affects of having our tires essentially roll uphill, lifting our mass up against gravity for a fraction of a second, and maximizing the affect of having our tires roll downhill for a fraction of a second by weighting, being as heavy as possible, at that moment. Sometimes there is only room for a back-wheel to fit in a compression and then a quick manual wheelie through a trough or hole in the trail will maximize your "squirt" down trail. Sometime the rough terrain extends too far down trail to remain un-weighted for the entire section. You may just have to take it, stay very loose on the bike and try not to flat. Or maybe not. Maybe you just jump it.

Jumping. Being in the air is fun. It's smooth, and if you land on the backside of a feature smooth enough, it's fast and can send you hauling ass. Get good at jumping, and you will get really fast. Putting the back tire down with precision is the way to maximize the physics at work here. If there is a long root bed, and you boost off the first root, and place your rear tire down on the backside of the last root, and don't pinch-flat, you can get incredible squirt. Eventually this technique will lead you to nose-manuals where you front wheel will track the features of a trail ever-so-lightly, and your back tire will hover a few inches off the tread waiting for that perfect pocket to stomp and send you flying with a whizz of your free wheel. The precision wheel placement while rolling at speed will greatly improve your general ability to hit clean lines and interpret the trail in a new way allowing for maximum conservation of kinetic energy.

While riding a Single Speed Hard Tail will force your hand in learning these lessons, it's can be done on any bike, though deep suspension will absorb a lot of the pumping energy and make it more difficult to pedal standing and limit the lift you can get off of small features. Hope this gives some food for thought about pedaling less, braking more affectively, and progressing as a rider, 'cause personal progression is what it's all about.
$.02


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*Better is subjective*

Better is totally subjective. Depends on what types of trails you ride, your riding preferences, age, fitness, knee health, etc. It would make me a much worse rider and I wouldn't be able to ride as much as I want on the trails I like.


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## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

It would make me a great bike pusher up my SoCal mountains.


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## jasevr4 (Feb 23, 2005)

It taught me some skills that I otherwise would have been oblivious to. For instance, at the top of a descent, pedalling into the descent before you spin out. Most people I know that have never ridden SS freewheel down the hill and start pedalling at the bottom - I always beat them up the other side.

That said, I'm enjoying my geared bike nowadays.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

D Bone said:


> It would make me a great bike pusher up my SoCal mountains.


It really isn't that bad....most of the climbs around here are doable on the SS.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

Better for the body.


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## OddTrickStar (Aug 22, 2014)

Wait, you're using suspension?


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

Never. Suspension is smoke and mirrors.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

It is me or has everyone forgotten one very important reason we have gears ? to ease the stress on our joints, particularly the knees. Those of us who do alot of running will know, once your knees go, that's it for a long recovery time so it's best to avoid the issue alltogther.

I agree using SS will make you a bit stronger but it willl also expose your weakest link sooner rather than later which are the knees for many people.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

Bull. Ss bettah for knees. Trust me.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Single speeding has benefits, and so do gears. I like gears.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

each of my three bikes all help make me a better rider for different reasons.


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## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

Becoming a runner, a crossfitter...there are a number of unpleasant things I could take up that would make me a "better" rider but I'm too old for that shyt.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

c8stom said:


> It is me or has everyone forgotten one very important reason we have gears ? to ease the stress on our joints, particularly the knees. Those of us who do alot of running will know, once your knees go, that's it for a long recovery time so it's best to avoid the issue alltogther.
> 
> I agree using SS will make you a bit stronger but it willl also expose your weakest link sooner rather than later which are the knees for many people.


I've had surgery on both knees from skiing and wrestling. It's not the strength you gain that makes you a better rider. You gain skill on the bike. Balance. Faster lines. Better braking and cornering when you can't really pedal faster then 12 mph.

I only run when chased by something I can't render unconscious. Fortunately, that never happens.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Wherewolf said:


> Better is totally subjective. Depends on what types of trails you ride, your riding preferences, age, fitness, knee health, etc. It would make me a much worse rider and I wouldn't be able to ride as much as I want on the trails I like.


It would be more difficult. It would expose you weaknesses as a bike handler. If you committed to it, you would get better. If you are someone who wants to really develop a solid all-around skill set, it's a faster path. If you want to sit-and-spin and watch the world go by, it's totally not a path you should take. Nothing wrong with either. This is just the observations I've made during my own progression as a rider, thought I'd share. Some folks from the regional forum were inspired so I thought I would share with a larger audience. Happy trails!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DaveVt said:


> If you want to sit-and-spin and watch the world go by, it's totally not a path you should take. Nothing wrong with either.


Some people use their gears to shift into a harder one so they can stand up & haul @ss. I don't mean this in a bad way but I think riders who gain the most from ss are the ones who never quite figured out how to use gears to increase their speed and momentum and instead only think of them as a bailout.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> Some people use their gears to shift into a harder one so they can stand up & haul @ss. I don't mean this in a bad way but I think riders who gain the most from ss are the ones who never quite figured out how to use gears to increase their speed and momentum and instead only think of them as a bailout.


Easy to shift up and pedal hard to go fast. Difficult to pre-jump, pump and be smooth to go fast. Being able to pedal at 20 MPH allows you to continue moving quickly after bashing through chunder. Maintaining high speeds without the option of just pedaling more will teach you better line choice. I never had a hard time figuring out how to utilize a 3x8. I rode that way for a decade and evolved like a roadie. When I switched over my riding style changed to that of a BMX rider. You know, skilled bike handler. People I ride with now assume I used to race BMX, but my back round is straight XC MTB, although I did basically stop riding trail for a couple years to just DJ so I could bring those skills back to my trail riding. If people are looking to develop that style, a SS will accelerate that learning curve.


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

Please tell us what types of trails you are riding, e.g. how much climbing, distances, etc.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

momentum. carrying way more speed into punchy climbs and getting on top of the gear and hammering out of corners. spinning higher rpms on the flats.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Wherewolf said:


> Please tell us what types of trails you are riding, e.g. how much climbing, distances, etc.


Daily rides are 30-40 miles/4000-6000' here in So Cal.

Usually a weekend ride 60-85 miles/7000-10000'.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DaveVt said:


>


Cool vid, but that dude trains with gears every day.

I'm not bashing ss at all, I think they're loads of fun and one can learn a lot by riding them. I like your story and think it's great that riding a ss has improved your riding so much, I just think it might be a little better if you dropped a little of the, you know, holier than thou attitude. There are plenty of geared riders who aren't lacking bike handling skills.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

DaveVt said:


> ...
> While riding a Single Speed Hard Tail will force your hand in learning these lessons, it's can be done on any bike, ... Hope this gives some food for thought about pedaling less, braking more affectively, and progressing as a rider, 'cause personal progression is what it's all about.
> $.02


I like how you wrap it up here. All good observations. I've been riding rigid with gears since the beginning and I am a momentum junky. I need every trick I can learn to hang with the FS crowd.



J.B. Weld said:


> Some people use their gears to shift into a harder one so they can stand up & haul @ss. I don't mean this in a bad way but I think riders who gain the most from ss are the ones who never quite figured out how to use gears to increase their speed and momentum and instead only think of them as a bailout.


To wrap up both quotes here, I will say that when I'm in shape, and I can push a bigger gear, I can really move out. I'm not there yet this season so I can only push the bigger gear for a short time and enjoy that flow and rhythm that I can only get in that bigger gear. After I get tired and I bail to my lower gears, then I'm back to clunking my way through at a slow speed.

It is a quantum leap when I am finally able to push the bigger gear, though. I can make momentum where a smaller gear has me all but spun out. I can build momentum on an incline, for example. I can input a half crank here or there that again preserves precious momentum. I can clear rock gardens better because I need fewer pedal strokes, making a pedal _strike_ less likely. Low-frequency pedaling also seems to just work better for my rhythm through choppy rocks anyway. I can carry enough speed to jump that root cluster, or float that sand. This is why "flow" is sort of elusive unless the trail is a "flow" style trail. A strong, skilled rider can create flow out of almost nothing, but if you are relying completely on gravity for flow then you can only have it when it is given to you.
But yeah, it's not specific to SS. My knees would explode if I rode SS. ...At least my right knee would.

-F


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

What is all this knee crap about? can I assume you guys think you're going to try to stay seated and push the tougher gearing? You stand up and use body weight, hips and handlebars to climb, *not* your knees. 

It's actually easier on beat knees than jogging or maybe even hiking.

FWIW I'm not any kind of a zealot. I have a rigid SS which is good for the things mentioned in the OP.

I have a gear FS which has made me a much better rider in terms of tackling REAL jumps and drops that you wouldn't even attempt on an XC hardtail, and also at tackling gnar at speed vs picking through it technically. 

I have a cross bike that has taught me endurance, pushing the right gear/cadence over time for max speed vs just tooling around. 

I don't think the OP was trying to say that SS somehow makes you superior to all other forms of bike. He just broke down in a pretty detailed way the types of skills riding SS will give you!


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## OddTrickStar (Aug 22, 2014)

Knee crap?

I'll add that from my experience, my knees get sore when I sit too much. Get up out of the saddle and it pretty much goes away in a minute.

When I ride gears, I still use the taller ones. I want to get up the hill quicker to blast down the backside.


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

learn to bmxican and your skills will be fine


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I agree with the single speed benefits. I have done quite a bit of single speeding although not lately. Around here there is a ton of hard climbing and I would have to set it up with a pretty low gear, and a dropper. I still might put one together again. There are a few single speeders around here and they are amazing the way they can climb. When I lived where the trails were easier it made riding more fun and challenging, now I'm on a 6" bike all the time but still hanker for the old SS.


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*I'll sit and spin*



DaveVt said:


> ...If you committed to it, you would get better... If you want to sit-and-spin and watch the world go by, it's totally not a path you should take...


I ride a 2x10 and I need every gear. I tried a 1x11 and it wasn't enough. Perhaps 1% of riders on this site could do serious mountain biking on a SS, and even fewer senior citizens. If you have knee problems the first thing a doctor will tell you is to spin in lower gears. In my opinion doing major riding on a SS is like playing Russian roulette with your knees. And believe me, once your knees go your life will never be the same. Of course all smokers insist they won't be the one to get lung cancer.









Sitting and spinning watching the world go by.









How many could do this on a SS?









How many could do this on a SS?









This could be yours.









This could be yours.​


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I personally don't like my equipment to force me to do things a certain way. Everything that can be done with SS can be done with gears.

When I want to BMX, I go ride BMX.


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

Hey Steve, I've out 'n backed kingsbury to spooner to flume on my SS in my 30's.

With that said I did a modified punisher last year and was glad for the gears (I did 1x10 with 32x40 as my granny) and I think it would be doable SS but you'd need to gear down to something like 32x20 on a 26er or 32x22 on a 29er.

I'm not a freak athlete either with pretty average dimensions and maybe just an above average stubborn streak.

I think your knee problems originally came from running right? SS is like running without the impact. You are NOT applying shearing forces to your knees as you would pushing too big a gear seated, especially climbing.

Not trying to convert you at all. At your age with your knees spinning in the granny is the single best option for you. I'm only 40 but SS feels nicer to my knees than spinning does.


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## elcaro1101 (Sep 1, 2011)

Wherewolf said:


> View attachment 994821
> 
> 
> This could be yours.​


With medical advances, this could be a better than stock part in the very near future. Maybe they will use your pictures for an advertisement someday haha.


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

God bless the internet.

This is a funny thread. Dude gives his experience of how he thinks riding a fixie made him a better rider. Others feel offended and must impress their experience upon said individual.

I think I found the problem... it's in the title. It should read "How a Single Speed Makes ME a Better Rider".

I'd also be more impressed if you rode a bike with no gears... but that's just me.


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*Same mistake as OP*



big_slacker said:


> Hey Steve, I've out 'n backed kingsbury to spooner to flume on my SS in my 30's. With that said I did a modified punisher last year and was glad for the gears (I did 1x10 with 32x40 as my granny) and I think it would be doable SS but you'd need to gear down to something like 32x20 on a 26er or 32x22 on a 29er. I'm not a freak athlete either with pretty average dimensions and maybe just an above average stubborn streak.


Same mistake as OP. Just because YOU can does not mean others can, nor should they. I like to be in the right gear at the right time and my knees tell me when to shift. I recently bought a new car with a 6 speed manual transmission because I like to be in the best possible gear. Shifting is fun. Anybody buying single speed cars or motorcycles these days? If you can do big Tahoe rides on a SS you are a one percenter. I used to ride with a lot of SSers up there, but nearly all have given it up.


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*Half right*



l'oiseau said:


> G..Others feel offended and must impress their experience upon said individual. I think I found the problem... it's in the title. It should read "How a Single Speed Makes ME a Better Rider"...


You are half right. I don't see that anybody has been offended, but I do agree with your title suggestion.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

I don't think anyone was offended... threatened into justifying where, what, why and how they ride... hmmm?


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

I have geared HT, but I do see the value of a Single Speed. In fact I have done a few rides in a single speed gear. I pick a good SS ratio from my existing gear set and ride that gear all ride. What I learned a is a few things. 1) I am stronger than I think 2) I am not as strong as I need to be to run SS all the time 3) Riding SS style will force me to get stronger as geared rider. 

Stronger legs for power moves when geared and better balance. After doing SS changing gears seems like cheating. Even so I am not ready to do SS only. There is just too much I want to ride that I can't to ride SS only.


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## OddTrickStar (Aug 22, 2014)

Wherewolf said:


> Same mistake as OP. Just because YOU can does not mean others can, nor should they. I like to be in the right gear at the right time and my knees tell me when to shift. I recently bought a new car with a 6 speed manual transmission because I like to be in the best possible gear. Shifting is fun. Anybody buying single speed cars or motorcycles these days? If you can do big Tahoe rides on a SS you are a one percenter. I used to ride with a lot of SSers up there, but nearly all have given it up.


Electric cars are single speeds. Full torque at 0 RPM. Maybe some people are like that. Others are like internal combustion engines that need some revs to put out power. Even then you'll have diesel and petrol powered people.

We all see people doing things that defy our own logic.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Wherewolf said:


> You are half right. I don't see that anybody has been offended, but I do agree with your title suggestion.


Ya see, I think saying that it makes ME a better rider is more egotistical. I'm not saying I'm a better rider than anyone except myself before I spent time on a one geared bike. Single speed will make YOU a better rider then you currently are, even if you can't ride every trail you currently ride on it.

It's funny you think I can't be doing any serious MTBing on my One Speed.

I posted the chainless DH run in response to the suggestion that SS can only be as fast as people on geared bikes if those people don't know how to use their gears. At the World Cup, I imagine everyone knows how to use their gears. Niko had to ride different lines to ride as fast, but was as fast and podiumed.

I'm not saying you won't become a skillful if you don't ride a SS. What I am saying is if you commit to it, and ride with your regular group, you will be forced to eveolve more quickly to hang. It will accelerate the learning curve. In the end, it's about our own personal growth. If you are interested in being the most well rounded rider you can be, and enjoy that development, it has been my experience that minimizing gears is a fun way to do it.

I ride in Vermont exclusively. These days, with a 5 yo child and a 110 year old house I don't get to ride as much as I used to. Before fatherhood I regularly rode 20+ miles, up to 35 or more with 4-6 thousand feet of climbing on generally very technical single track, pushing a 36:18 riding almost exclusively with people on geared, full suspension bikes.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

big_slacker said:


> What is all this knee crap about? can I assume you guys think you're going to try to stay seated and push the tougher gearing? You stand up and use body weight, hips and handlebars to climb, *not* your knees.
> 
> It's actually easier on beat knees than jogging or maybe even hiking.
> 
> I don't think the OP was trying to say that SS somehow makes you superior to all other forms of bike. He just broke down in a pretty detailed way the types of skills riding SS will give you!


Yup.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> I personally don't like my equipment to force me to do things a certain way. Everything that can be done with SS can be done with gears.
> 
> When I want to BMX, I go ride BMX.


Riding BMX is the ultimate. That is where the real skill is. For me, my bike has always been about back country exploration. I like to ride from my house out, over, down and through my surroundings and don't like the concept of using my car to go for a ride. I like SS because of the aesthetics primarily and didn't care if it was hard, or limited me. It was the kind of bike that was always ready to ride with limited $ for parts replacement, upgrades, compatibility ect. Over time I realized it was giving me certain skills I likely would not have gained if I had kept riding my Enduro, or even my Imperial with gears. I think it's cool how many different forms MTBs have taken. I'm sure, just like a SS HT, they all have specific aspects of riding they will teach the rider.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

DaveVt said:


> Riding BMX is the ultimate. That is where the real skill is. For me, my bike has always been about back country exploration. I like to ride from my house out, over, down and through my surroundings and don't like the concept of using my car to go for a ride. I like SS because of the aesthetics primarily and didn't care if it was hard, or limited me. It was the kind of bike that was always ready to ride with limited $ for parts replacement, upgrades, compatibility ect. Over time I realized it was giving me certain skills I likely would not have gained if I had kept riding my Enduro, or even my Imperial with gears. I think it's cool how many different forms MTBs have taken. I'm sure, just like a SS HT, they all have specific aspects of riding they will teach the rider.


I can't disagree with anything you say. 
Even moreso cuz you rocked an Imp.

:thumbsup:

I have a few SS bikes myself and sometimes I find that I'm in the mood to ride one, but I also find that just not shifting often gets me to pretty much the same place (specially since my lowest gear is a 32x32, on a 33lb 6" FS 26er). One way or another, I'm gonna end up walking on the bigger hills anyway.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

ss ain't about gearing down so that you can make all of the climbs on your route or trails. ss is about small victories as you gain strength and handling techniques to make it up that climb that you've never made it up before, or thought that you never could.

got my 1st ss in 2001, a rigid bianchi cuss 36-18 (52" gear) 2-1 was always the gear back then and no matter where you rode or raced that was the common gear for any course. and that gear ratio was pretty good on the flats where you wouldn't spin out too badly and it forced you to hammer or grind up climbs where most of your geared friends were in a 32-28 or 22 something and seemingly riding backwards up the hill by comparison. when i 1st started riding that bianchi there were MANY climbs in my area that i couldn't make due to strength or technique on the ss, and i was a pretty fit rider fer sure. well by the end of that year i had not only finally made it up all those climbs but i was rolling up over them like they weren't even there. early ss racing was about the fittest guys pushing the biggest gears and winning. the only guy ever to win the vt 50 overall on a ss was pushing a 36-16 and there's 9000 feet of climbing. i've won harder races 
(in ss class) pushing 32-18 on my 29er where other guys as fit as me chose 32-20 and easier cuz there was wicked climbing. well they may have stayed on the bike more and made more climbs, but where i was overgeared for some climbs i just got off, shouldered or pushed the bike at a full on running pace which was faster than riding anyways. this one 60 mile race i prolly ran 10 miles of it, but you know what? i was much faster on the flat, i could get more speed approaching the downs, and on the loooong gradual climbs, fuggettabout it, they sat and spin and i'd stand and hammer away. poof. gone.

ss is about gearing above your comfort zone till it's right within reach, you gain strength, but you should never be too comfortable rolling ss. 

i think i'll turn my fatty ss. that'd be sick. braaaaaaaaaap!!!


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

Wherewolf said:


> Same mistake as OP. Just because YOU can does not mean others can, nor should they.


Not what I said. Even the paragraph below what you quoted I said you're doing what you should given your situation, haha!

To clearly state my points so there isn't any ambiguity:

1-I don't think SS is bad for the knees of a healthy adult as long as you're not trying to push too tough a gear seated.

2-I don't think you need to be a freak athlete to ride SS, even big rides. You just need to condition to it. I sucked wind the first 2 months of riding, even at a conservative 32x20 on a 26er. Then I got stronger, then I dropped teeth on the rear cog. After a while I didn't walk so much. Like anything else, practice makes perfect.

3-I don't think everyone needs to ride SS or even that *I* need to ride SS all the time. But it does add a skillset to your riding that I think would be beneficial to most riders.


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*Careful*



DaveVt said:


> ...It's funny you think I can't be doing any serious MTBing on my One Speed....


Careful. Misquoting what another said is how threads begin to crash. My post is still there, unedited.



Wherewolf said:


> ...Perhaps 1% of riders on this site could do serious mountain biking on a SS, and even fewer senior citizens.


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

l'oiseau said:


> God bless the internet.
> 
> This is a funny thread. Dude gives his experience of how he thinks riding a fixie made him a better rider. Others feel offended and must impress their experience upon said individual.
> 
> ...


Please learn the difference between an SS and a fixie before commenting further.......

I discovered the joys of riding a Single Speed 5 years ago and it has made me a better rider. From picking lines to pumping and gaining a good amount of fitness rather quickly, my geared bikes mostly sit as I almost exclusively ride the SS.
I ride in the Southern Adirondacks, rocky and rooty NE riding at it's finest with lots of short steep hills and occasionally longer climbs. 
Do I have to get off and walk sometimes on a steep hill? Sure, it comes with the territory and is acceptable to me.
Do I have to worry about gear train problems? Nothing that a couple drops of chain lube won't cure.
I'm 47 and gave up running because of knee pain. I have yet to encounter any form of knee pain from riding a SS. 
And I'm too dumb to shift gears.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

You have to have a mustache to ride a SS. It has to be curly if its a rigid SS. 

Riding more makes me a better rider. Unfortunately, no mustache, so its a geared bike :/


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

SeaBass_ said:


> Please learn the difference between an SS and a fixie before commenting further.......


Burn. I don't see how having a one-way clutch makes you a better rider? Coasting is for wussies.

I think you need a sense of humor too Karl.


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

l'oiseau said:


> Burn. I don't see how having a one-way clutch makes you a better rider? Coasting is for wussies.
> 
> I think you need a sense of humor too Karl.


Oh sorry! I didn't know you rode a bike without a freewheel! Do you have a 2 speed Bendix with a coaster brake? Or are you on a fixie? Much respect to you then, Brah!:thumbsup:


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

SeaBass_ said:


> Oh sorry! I didn't know you rode a bike without a freewheel! Do you have a 2 speed Bendix with a coaster brake? Or are you on a fixie? Much respect to you then, Brah!:thumbsup:


No I ride a bike with multiple gears and a freewheel because it's 2015.

But by all means, please contribute to this hilarious conversation where one side or the other will be thoroughly convinced to switch. I'm going to go watch the grass grow or something now.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

One Pivot said:


> You have to have a mustache to ride a SS. It has to be curly if its a rigid SS.
> 
> Riding more makes me a better rider. Unfortunately, no mustache, so its a geared bike :/


My SS is older then hipster facial hair. Ride a SS and you'll get more betterer.


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

l'oiseau said:


> No I ride a bike with multiple gears and a freewheel because it's 2015.
> 
> But by all means, please contribute to this hilarious conversation where one side or the other will be thoroughly convinced to switch. I'm going to go watch the grass grow or something now.


I have multiple gears too- Sitting, Standing, and Walking.

Where'd you find a 2015 bike with a Freewheel? Do you mean Freehub?

Please feel free to take advantage of the wealth of knowledge in the Beginner Forum. We all were there once. Then you can come back and know WTF you're talking about.


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## Thor29 (May 12, 2005)

Currently my only mountain bike is a Kona Honzo with a 140mm fork and set up single speed. That's the way I like it and I will ride anything on it from XC to lift assisted DH. But does it make me a better rider? I don't think so. Give me a full suspension bike with gears and I will go 10% faster on the gnarlier downhills and a little slower on the uphills (what can I say, if I can sit and spin why suffer?). A skilled rider rides whatever bike he's on to the limits of that bike. This reminds me of the argument that rigid forks make you a better rider. They don't. They just make you slow down or your eyeballs get rattled out of your head. I could ride my cyclocross bike on my regular trails, but I wouldn't learn anything except how to ride within the limitations of rigid forks and 35mm tires. Not very useful. I'll stick with front suspension and 29x2.3 tires, thank you.

But who cares anyway? I'm not racing, I'm just having fun. If I "progress" as a rider, that's cool, but it's not very important to me. I just like riding my Honzo more than I like riding FS geared bikes. No need to justify it at all.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

Thor29 said:


> Currently my only mountain bike is a Kona Honzo with a 140mm fork and set up single speed. That's the way I like it and I will ride anything on it from XC to lift assisted DH. But does it make me a better rider? I don't think so. Give me a full suspension bike with gears and I will go 10% faster on the gnarlier downhills and a little slower on the uphills (what can I say, if I can sit and spin why suffer?). A skilled rider rides whatever bike he's on to the limits of that bike. This reminds me of the argument that rigid forks make you a better rider. They don't. They just make you slow down or your eyeballs get rattled out of your head. I could ride my cyclocross bike on my regular trails, but I wouldn't learn anything except how to ride within the limitations of rigid forks and 35mm tires. Not very useful. I'll stick with front suspension and 29x2.3 tires, thank you.
> 
> But who cares anyway? I'm not racing, I'm just having fun. If I "progress" as a rider, that's cool, but it's not very important to me. I just like riding my Honzo more than I like riding FS geared bikes. No need to justify it at all.


wrong, jong. rigid is smooth and fast thru the rough in the right hands if one is willing to make it so. suspension's just throwing in the towel and cowering away from nature.

if you need suspension just go ride the road. it's wicked smooth and whatnot.

"eyeballs get rattled out of your head" lol. what a little mouth breathing victim


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

One Pivot said:


> You have to have a mustache to ride a SS. It has to be curly if its a rigid SS.
> 
> Riding more makes me a better rider. Unfortunately, no mustache, so its a geared bike :/


I can't grow a decent Stach to save my life. I do rock wayfarers and sandals sometimes though, try to make up for it.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

big_slacker said:


> I can't grow a decent Stach to save my life. I do rock wayfarers and sandals sometimes though, try to make up for it.


I ALWAYS rock wayfarers. Best shades evar!


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

That's what I'm talkin about! If anything makes you a better rider, it's wayfarers.



newmarketrog said:


> I ALWAYS rock wayfarers. Best shades evar!


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

newmarketrog said:


> wrong, jong. rigid is smooth and fast thru the rough in the right hands if one is willing to make it so. suspension's just throwing in the towel and cowering away from nature.
> 
> if you need suspension just go ride the road. it's wicked smooth and whatnot.
> 
> "eyeballs get rattled out of your head" lol. what a little mouth breathing victim


please just stop this nonsense. rigid is only quicker because your in awesome shape. If rigid was better, someone in the EWS would be using a fully rigid bike or heck a hardtail. But I guess 5-7 inch travel bike in the EWS are just marketing eh?


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

Thor29 said:


> Currently my only mountain bike is a Kona Honzo with a 140mm fork and set up single speed. That's the way I like it and I will ride anything on it from XC to lift assisted DH. But does it make me a better rider? I don't think so. Give me a full suspension bike with gears and I will go 10% faster on the gnarlier downhills and a little slower on the uphills (what can I say, if I can sit and spin why suffer?). A skilled rider rides whatever bike he's on to the limits of that bike. This reminds me of the argument that rigid forks make you a better rider. They don't. They just make you slow down or your eyeballs get rattled out of your head. I could ride my cyclocross bike on my regular trails, but I wouldn't learn anything except how to ride within the limitations of rigid forks and 35mm tires. Not very useful. I'll stick with front suspension and 29x2.3 tires, thank you.
> 
> But who cares anyway? I'm not racing, I'm just having fun. If I "progress" as a rider, that's cool, but it's not very important to me. I just like riding my Honzo more than I like riding FS geared bikes. No need to justify it at all.


I ride a SS Honzo with a 140mm fork as well 






rog once we can get the trail back together from logging, you are welcome to come ride it with me. bring the rigid, good luck.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

BushwackerinPA said:


> please just stop this nonsense. rigid is only quicker because your in awesome shape. If rigid was better, someone in the EWS would be using a fully rigid bike or heck a hardtail. But I guess 5-7 inch travel bike in the EWS are just marketing eh?


i never said rigid was faster. just plenty fast and smooth with strength and skill.

plus if i dint throw my opinions around then you wouldn't have as many places to post all the "point proving" vids that you have in yer fanny pack, eh?


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

newmarketrog said:


> i never said rigid was faster. just plenty fast and smooth with strength and skill.
> 
> plus if i dint throw my opinions around then you wouldn't have as many places to post all the "point proving" vids that you have in yer fanny pack, eh?


John Wolff has timed himself riding his standard loop at Waterbury. He's fastest on his full-rigid Karate Monkey FWIW.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

ya i believe it. i'm faster full rigid as well on a wide variety of terrain loop fer sure. cornering is more crisp and quick, as is full on sprinting anywhere. lighter front end, more agile front end. imo. YOU are the suspension. 

one of the most talented and winningest (is that even a word, lol) racers out of ne ever won the northeast norba pro series title 10 years in a row on a full rigid cheap iron horse warrior frame (he raced for iron horse, but chose that frame cuz he liked the geo), a vicious cycles rigid fork and a 7 speed with a top mount thumb shifter and a 34 ring up front and a 7 speed 11-34 freewheel in the back. yup freewheel. this was from 96-2006 so he was still crushing guys with carbon 29ers and full suss 29ers with full xtr blah blah blah. the guy is a magician on a bike and used to race pro dh and trials as well. he would always tell me that you don't win races on the up or the down, you win in the CORNERS and told me i should buy this motorcycle or race car book (i can't recall which one now) to get faster. i was lucky enough to do some riding with him including a 5 hour epic in arcadia/pachaug ri/ct. the fvcking guy shows up on a 1984 shogun, heavy, rigid of course, with those old triangle stem/bar combo thingies and a 34-17 ratio. now the rest of the crew were some of the most seasoned and fastest ss'ers in ne at the time. the guy schooled us the whole ride. just mind numbing watching him ride. he could hop up onto and over anything (no dropper, lol) and lose us at will. cept for maybe the longer climbs which were my strong suit as i'm more of a power rider. 

wizard. and winning on cheap rigid. it ain't about the bike yo.

brooke knows who he is. ask him about the guy that lapped him at the 6 hours of power race at green mountain trails some years back.


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

SeaBass_ said:


> I have multiple gears too- Sitting, Standing, and Walking.
> 
> Where'd you find a 2015 bike with a Freewheel? Do you mean Freehub?
> 
> Please feel free to take advantage of the wealth of knowledge in the Beginner Forum. We all were there once. Then you can come back and know WTF you're talking about.


Oh you're good Billy Bob. So since I didn't use the registered Shimano trademark to describe the specific 'freewheel' mechanism which my bike has and is all has the same function as any one-way clutch I don't get rep points like 'ole Sea Bass? Get a life dude.

Care to keep going on - I'm sure you can exploit your expert bike knowledge on me and prove how I'll be a better rider and mechanic by knowing this inane bs... I'm sure you'll get some street cred if nothing else. I'll just keep laughing from where I'm sitting... on the irony!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

newmarketrog said:


> ya i believe it. i'm faster full rigid as well on a wide variety of terrain loop fer sure. cornering is more crisp and quick, as is full on sprinting anywhere. lighter front end, more agile front end. imo. YOU are the suspension.
> 
> one of the most talented and winningest (is that even a word, lol) racers out of ne ever won the northeast norba pro series title 10 years in a row on a full rigid cheap iron horse warrior frame (he raced for iron horse, but chose that frame cuz he liked the geo), a vicious cycles rigid fork and a 7 speed with a top mount thumb shifter and a 34 ring up front and a 7 speed 11-34 freewheel in the back. yup freewheel. this was from 96-2006 so he was still crushing guys with carbon 29ers and full suss 29ers with full xtr blah blah blah. the guy is a magician on a bike and used to race pro dh and trials as well. he would always tell me that you don't win races on the up or the down, you win in the CORNERS and told me i should buy this motorcycle or race car book (i can't recall which one now) to get faster. i was lucky enough to do some riding with him including a 5 hour epic in arcadia/pachaug ri/ct. the fvcking guy shows up on a 1984 shogun, heavy, rigid of course, with those old triangle stem/bar combo thingies and a 34-17 ratio. now the rest of the crew were some of the most seasoned and fastest ss'ers in ne at the time. the guy schooled us the whole ride. just mind numbing watching him ride. he could hop up onto and over anything (no dropper, lol) and lose us at will. cept for maybe the longer climbs which were my strong suit as i'm more of a power rider.
> 
> ...


Was he winning DH races on a rigid too? Are you?

I can think of any number of trails that you're not going to be faster on a rigid SS than a standard w/e warrior on a decent FS bike. Not everyone measures 'better' by how they might stack up against the top level of freakishly talented racers. Believe it or not, most riders actually don't give half a **** about racing in general.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

just sayin that it ain't about the bike as much as the rider. he won many races at a pro level on VERY rough courses, as have i against a class full of full suss and front suss.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)




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## Justin MD (Sep 30, 2013)

I am a lazy forum reader. So I didn't read all of the first post. I have 2 bikes. One is an Enduro 29 with 1x11 30t. The other is a Carbon SS with a rigid fork.

The SS has made me better because it has made me stronger. 
It has made me ride further ahead to prepare for obstacles. 
It has made learn to hover over the bike for agility over rough terrain. 
It has taught me how to carry speed better and pump the bumps more.
It has taught me to get back to my BMX roots.

I am now faster on my geared climbs and faster on my descents. I do not race anyone but myself.

The down side. Long rides suck on my SS. The thing is like driving a dump truck with no weight in it. I also miss the dropper when needing some extra space. Like tight steep switchbacks.

But my SS is a rocket ship. 100% of my power goes to moving the bike forward. Well maybe not 100% but a hellvalot more than my E29. Every rock I smash with my Pike slows me down. Every time I get up and hammer on the E29 the bike is sucking the life out of me. But when it's time to fly down the rocks, grab gears, and plow nasty transitions and drops... The E29 does everything the SS can't.

PS, I don't have a mustache, I don't wear a kit, skinny clothes, or a have a man purse.

Eat my CHAMOIS.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Riding a rigid single speed is the purest form of mtn biking. No gears to get in the way and no suspension to smooth things out. Riding a bike like this forces you to work your body harder and do more work because the bike cannot do it for you. 

Last evening I did nice 16 mile 1600ft climbing loop on my 26" gear HT. I did the ride as SS leaving it in SS gear the entire ride. Looking at my strava track vs my geared rides it shows me a few things. 1) I am faster in some spots due to the gearing. 2) I am slower on some steep climbs, but that depends on the grade. Up to about 6% I am just the same or faster SS, but after that I slow down. This has to do with my legs not really developed enough yet to push that big gear. 

Anyway for now at least I am faster overall geared, but effort level is much different SS. It is good because the strong I can be SS I can then push bigger gears for longer when geared this get faster overall. Plus SS makes trails that were "easy" and creates a new challenge for them.

BTW... I want to be fast, strong, skilled rider. I don't feel the need to be the fastest on the trail. There is a difference. "Better" to me means what I can do on a bike. Better is not going from A to B faster than the next guy because I have more suspension travel.


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> Some people use their gears to shift into a harder one so they can stand up & haul @ss. I don't mean this in a bad way but I think riders who gain the most from ss are the ones who never quite figured out how to use gears to increase their speed and momentum and instead only think of them as a bailout.


SS has been my main ride for nearly 10 years and this statement is dead on the money. Biggest issue I have when riding in groups typically, is getting stuck behind all the riders that drop into a crawling speed gear at the beginning of every incline.


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

If you like SS'ing, fine, knock your bad self out. (And by "you", I don't mean the previous poster). I could care less. Just don't assert that one needs to ride a SS to learn how to ride more efficiently. I'm on a full-susser with a 3x9 drivetrain. Every second of every ride I am focused on being as efficient as possible. I have to. I ride in the Rocky Mountains, I'm getting older and riding trails is just damn hard. I use every technique I can to maintain momentum at all times. I didn't need to ride a SS and kill my knees to learn this. Rant over.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

golden boy said:


> ... Just don't assert that one needs to ride a SS to learn how to ride more efficiently.... I didn't need to ride a SS and kill my knees to learn this. Rant over.


Two things. 
1) I don't think anyone needs to ride SS. However if you want to try it there are some benefits. If you feel you have reached a plateau in your riding then SS might be a way to change that up and build on some different muscle groups and skill sets

2) SS does not need to hurt your knees. It might hurt your knees if you stay seated too long, but soon you realize you simply cannot be seated for alot of the riding. So you stand up and use you body weight to turn the pedals. It is like running, but with no impact. In fact is very close to an elliptical machine.

Of course SS is not going to be for everyone and that is ok. I would never consider SS or SS rigid a "main stream" when it comes to Mtn bike riding. It takes special kind of person give up all those aids and chose to work harder than everyone else. Then again all mtn bikers do make choice to put in effort. Easiest thing to is to sit home on the couch so I give credit to everyone who is actually out there riding.

I used to think SSer were crazy for not using gears. Now I KNOW they are crazy and simply like to suffer. What I did not realize however was that suffering like that is kind of fun and I guess I am little crazy too.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

DaveVt said:


> John Wolff has timed himself riding his standard loop at Waterbury. He's fastest on his full-rigid Karate Monkey FWIW.


I thought strava did not matter?

with that said from last checked since i use to work on Wolff bikes he has the fully rigid Karate Monkey, a Vassago(which has seriosuly ****ed up Geo) and a Turner Burner. let not forget Wolfe is potetnially the most badass of badass and rides a **** ton.

I think hed be faster on short travel FS with the proper Geo. IMO a 6 inch bike is going to slow you down tons on the relativity non technical climb of Perry Hill. What it comes down to is a true test of up and down speed will almost always come down to the climb.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

BushwackerinPA said:


> what it comes down to is a true test of up and down speed will almost always come down to the climb.


yep

VROOM!


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> Was he winning DH races on a rigid too? Are you?
> 
> I can think of any number of trails that you're not going to be faster on a rigid SS than a standard w/e warrior on a decent FS bike. Not everyone measures 'better' by how they might stack up against the top level of freakishly talented racers. Believe it or not, most riders actually don't give half a **** about racing in general.


Man, you might be surprised. Not about dick measuring against racers, you're right about that. But last time I rode one of our nice systems out here (tiger mountain in the seattle area) there is a new-ish trail called Off the Grid. It's what I'd call an intermediate/advanced trail. Anyone can ride it slowly, more advanced folks can ride it fast and do all the little hits, drops, tech spots, etc...

I'm not mr. super downhill but I've been riding a long time and I'm pretty decent. I was riding my SC 5010, 1x10, dropper, etc. Perfect bike for this trail. I talked to a dude before dropping in who was on a pretty pimp looking lightweight niner carbon XC bike. He lets me go first and I go in thinking I won't see him again. That's how it goes to start, I get a lead but on one of the switchbacks I can see him back there still, impressive! After a bit I get a little tired and stop after a turn. 5 seconds later here he comes and I wave him by.

I get going again and generally keep him in sight, but he's taking the drops and powering up the little hills and tech spots very nicely. We get to the bottom and I talked with him a little more. He's an endurance racer (sounded like ultra distance stuff) and I complimented him on his skills. We leapfrogged a bit the rest of the way down but I have no problems saying he was a much faster rider than me.

I think even on technical trails a good rider with lots of seat time on their steed can ride just as fast as FS riders. Of course there are places where FS shines, like rock gardens, jumps, rooty descents, etc. Just like there are places where a lightweight XC bikes shine like big/steep climbs. Ultimately though it's about rider skill.


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## Iamrockandroll13 (Feb 10, 2013)

I don't understand why when this thread starts (aka 'singlespeed made me a better rider") there is a parade of people that roll in saying, "Hey FU man that's not for me!"

Doing any kind of riding outside of what is normal to you will make you a better rider.

Don't road cycle? Do it some time and give it an honest try, you might not like it as much but if you put some time into it, you will improve in some way as a rider.

Don't Downhill? XC climbing all day like the racer champion you are? Go to the park a few times and catch a few lifts, it will benefit you as a rider.

etc, etc, etc. I could go on and on but the point really is that new experiences are how people develop into better people. That's how life works.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

ss even running proper gearing doesn't hafta be a complete sufferfest as some might think. i find i can get more into a rythm and get into my own "flow" state on a loooong steep grinding climb as i work my whole body as one complete working unit. lower hr fer sure compared to spinning like mad up a steep climb.

the thing that i love about racing ss is that because i know i'm limited to just the one gear, i find myself always searching for the fastest line or the just trying to go as fast as i can where i can. for me that equals more speed even compared to running a multispeed.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

""eyeballs get rattled out of your head" lol. what a little mouth breathing victim"

totally uncalled for. no need to start playing the name-calling game.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

big_slacker said:


> Man, you might be surprised. Not about dick measuring against racers, you're right about that. But last time I rode one of our nice systems out here (tiger mountain in the seattle area) there is a new-ish trail called Off the Grid. It's what I'd call an intermediate/advanced trail. Anyone can ride it slowly, more advanced folks can ride it fast and do all the little hits, drops, tech spots, etc...
> 
> I'm not mr. super downhill but I've been riding a long time and I'm pretty decent. I was riding my SC 5010, 1x10, dropper, etc. Perfect bike for this trail. I talked to a dude before dropping in who was on a pretty pimp looking lightweight niner carbon XC bike. He lets me go first and I go in thinking I won't see him again. That's how it goes to start, I get a lead but on one of the switchbacks I can see him back there still, impressive! After a bit I get a little tired and stop after a turn. 5 seconds later here he comes and I wave him by.
> 
> ...


Totally agree. I know guys that will kick my most people's asses on almost any trail, on almost any bike. They're also freakishly fit and skilled riders. For most of us, there are definitely benefits to the using the 'right' tool (or something that at least resembles it) for most stuff. I've DHed XC bikes and XCed DH bikes. Nothing about doing that made me a better rider in any way I can recognize. Though I definitley found that riding DH chainless on occasion taught me a ton about carrying/conserving momentum and pumping terrain.

In general, riding all sorts of bikes on all sorts of terrain does make you a better rider overall, as mentioned. I can't say that I've found any one particular type of equipment really does a much better job of it than another though.

As far as some people saying they can ride anything on a rigid bike as fast or as well as on an FS bike, here's the type of stuff I'm thinking about that shitcans that perspective. Not too far from home Rog - check it out and let us know how the wrists and fillings feel after a run or two on this type of stuff.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

big_slacker said:


> What is all this knee crap about? can I assume you guys think you're going to try to stay seated and push the tougher gearing? You stand up and use body weight, hips and handlebars to climb, *not* your knees.


All that force still has to go through the knees. My knees get sore if I stand up and mash. Get into a really, really low gear, sit down and spin and they're happy.



big_slacker said:


> It's actually easier on beat knees than jogging or maybe even hiking.


Hiking up steeep stuff isn't so easy on the knees either. Ask my neighbor, the avid hiker, about her titanium knees and hip.

Biking up the hill in a sufficiently low gear IS easier on the knees.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

This thread brings teh lulz on so many levels.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

We are a little OT, no?

I know for a fact that it is not obvious to every rider that changing things up is a good way to improve. Whether it's changing terrain, changing bikes, changing riding groups, changing pedals, shoes, shorts, tires... any of these things will make you see the trail differently. From that, you will learn something. Not everyone will learn the same thing, but everyone will learn _some_thing.
All this blah blah blah about who or what is more or less capable, or what lesson/technique/style is more useful/valuable starts to sound like the guys who argue which martial art style is better. This redundant banter will travel the same circle it always does and arrive nowhere.

Can we just decide that the OP learned something and he shared his experience and that it may or may not work for others?

I actually learned a lot from riding a geared full suspension 26" bike for a couple years. It made me less panicked if I ran off-trail because it could still go. I applied this to my rigid 29er riding and I am much more confident about using more of the trail and not being "confined" to the "smooth" line. How contrary is that?

-F


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

jugdish said:


> This thread brings teh lulz on so many levels.


isn't that what it's all about? some good info share mixed with sword fights mixed with crying to mommy. IT'S GOT IT ALL!!!GOLD!!!LOL!!!


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## Rogueldr (Jul 30, 2007)

You guys all make me laugh. Ride what you dig!


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

So, riding a SS can cause a sh*t storm apparently. The OP was being provocative in her defense of SS'ing. It apparently worked!


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

Riding a SS is threatening to others, this thread has been happening in various forms for at least a decade.


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

what this thread needs is the added layer of discussion surrounding wheel size 

SS works for some - not for others. easy huh?

An earlier poster nailed it. different types of ridong will make you a better rider...road, XC, DH, SS, etc..and besides, it's all fun (or fun part 2)

Please ready this:
Some answers to just about any bike forum post I?ve ever read | Blog | Surly Bikes


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## TBMD9er (May 22, 2009)

I was of the same mindset of many of the single speed opponents, if you will, that have posted in this thread. I just couldn’t imagine getting up our mountainous climbs (Wasatch Front/Park City UT) in single speed gearing. I had a 29er frame with sliders, so I decided before I sold it I would give this single speed thing a try pretty much knowing I wouldn’t like it. A year and a half later and I’m a convert. Is it the one and only bike you’ll ever need? Definitely not in my opinion, but for those of us fortunate enough to be able to afford several bikes, it is a great addition to the stable. It has dramatically increased my fitness. For those of us short on time, you can cram the equivalent of a 3 hr ride into an hour and a half. Its like constant interval training, without feeling like you are training. It has also greatly increased my technical riding skills, learning to balance and pick my way through technical sections. I really notice the improvement on my full suspension bike when I ride in Moab, Gooseberry and such. The simplicity of the single speed set-up is also refreshing, the operating your bike vs just riding it. I’ve since switched to a rigid fork, with 29+ wheel, and love it even more. Most all your effort going directly to the wheel and no bobbing while standing.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

TBMD9er said:


> I was of the same mindset of many of the single speed opponents, if you will, that have posted in this thread. I just couldn't imagine getting up our mountainous climbs (Wasatch Front/Park City UT) in single speed gearing. I had a 29er frame with sliders, so I decided before I sold it I would give this single speed thing a try pretty much knowing I wouldn't like it. A year and a half later and I'm a convert. Is it the one and only bike you'll ever need? Definitely not in my opinion, but for those of us fortunate enough to be able to afford several bikes, it is a great addition to the stable. It has dramatically increased my fitness. For those of us short on time, you can cram the equivalent of a 3 hr ride into an hour and a half. Its like constant interval training, without feeling like you are training. It has also greatly increased my technical riding skills, learning to balance and pick my way through technical sections. I really notice the improvement on my full suspension bike when I ride in Moab, Gooseberry and such. The simplicity of the single speed set-up is also refreshing, the operating your bike vs just riding it. I've since switched to a rigid fork, with 29+ wheel, and love it even more. Most all your effort going directly to the wheel and no bobbing while standing.


yup


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## Singletrackd (May 3, 2015)

I think it's funny when people get pissed off that I can climb the same mountains and clear the same technical sections on a bike a quarter the price as theirs

Especially when they start complaining about not having enough travel


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

jugdish said:


> Riding a SS is threatening to others, this thread has been happening in various forms for at least a decade.


I don't think anyone is threatened by SS. If they are, I would be interested to know why. This thread is typical of many where some people share subjective views and others share objective information. The problem arises in the lack of acceptance of information contradicting ones own beliefs.

Due to varying education levels, life experiences and egos, it's inevitable.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

c8stom said:


> I don't think anyone is threatened by SS. If they are, I would be interested to know why. This thread is typical of many where some people share subjective views and others share objective information. The problem arises in the lack of acceptance of information contradicting ones own beliefs.
> 
> Due to varying education levels, life experiences and egos, it's inevitable.


^^Worth repeating IMO.

I think one of the reasons I may not be so into ss bikes is because my first mountain bike _was_ a single speed, a bastardized Schwinn cruiser with coaster brakes. After that one I spent the next decade cutting my teeth on rigid steel framed mountain bikes with 6-speed 14-28 freewheels and friction shifting that was less than stellar. Shifting during anything less than ideal conditions was usually avoided unless you felt like detangling your drivetrain so lots of times it was best to just stick to whatever gear you happened to be in and ride it out.

I'm just now (finally!) getting to know the joys of front suspension after all these years so the idea of a rigid ss seems like a bit of backtracking for me. I do get it, spent a fair amount of time on a "modern" one and had a lot of fun but I feel more at home with a few gears. Hats off to all you crazy füks rocking them and hope to see y'all out on the trail someday!


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## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

As a 1x10 rider on a 29er with a 30T / 11-36T drive train, I have some moments during climbs every ride, where I have to come to terms with myself (call myself a pu$$) to push that 30x36x29 gear, and get the hell up the climb. 

That being said, if I saw a someone fly past me on a SS during one of my "come to terms" moments, I wouldn't be threatened, I would in fact be in awe of them!


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

D Bone said:


> As a 1x10 rider on a 29er with a 30T / 11-36T drive train, I have some moments during climbs every ride, where I have to come to terms with myself (call myself a pu$$) to push that 30x36x29 gear, and get the hell up the climb.
> 
> That being said, if I saw a someone fly past me on a SS during one of my "come to terms" moments, I wouldn't be threatened, I would in fact be in awe of them!


You should be more impressed with the SS who can climb behind you nice and slow and doesn't need to sprint to make the climb. Strength only gets you so far. Eventually you have to fall back on stubbornness and trickery. Efficiency is what I learned I guess. Biking is fun.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

c8stom said:


> I don't think anyone is threatened by SS. If they are, I would be interested to know why.... egos, it's inevitable.


 You answered your own question.
Im not saying everyone but over the years that I've been riding it's been my experience, whether it's comments on trail or on a message board there's a percentage of people who fall into that category, IMO. One of the reasons I hate SSing is having to talk to/explain it to people when they see you on one, riding rigid adds to that. I personally don't care what you ride. I may not think you need all that bike for most of the trails here but hey... whatever floats your boat. I do think it's funny people on big bikes always clamoring for "more tech" but that's another thread. 😳


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Singletrackd said:


> I think it's funny when people get pissed off that I can climb the same mountains and clear the same technical sections on a bike a quarter the price as theirs
> 
> Especially when they start complaining about not having enough travel


You may be stronger but are you faster? That's all that matters.


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

It's only threatening when you use it to make yourself seem better than someone else.

Whatever makes you feel good I guess. Some people are better on bikes than others. Some people know more, some less; some people spend less money, others more... 

Ask yerself this - is it fun? Do I want to keep doing it?

If the answer(s) are yes, then eff what anyone else thinks. Do what you do and don't make anyone else feel like $hit for what they like to do and everyone is happy.

PS I like the original story even though it was kind of condescending in some ways (I'll read it as sarcastic humor though). Sounds like the OP is having fun on his/her bike.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

big_slacker said:


> Like anything else, practice makes perfect.


If only that were true. "Practice makes permanent, and only perfect practice has a chance to make perfect" would be closer to the truth.

If you practice doing something using poor form, you're more likely to get really good at doing it the wrong way than to suddenly attain perfect form.
=======================================
As for the wisdom of having a rear derailleur being akin to to the wisdom of hanging a transmission off of the rear bumper of an automobile, I don't see that as a valid point if you really think about why the cable operated derailleur has survived the test of time. There is a blend of efficiency, light weight, satisfactory durability, and cost effectiveness (probably more factors than that) that seems to appeal to consumers and manufacturers alike.

To use another old saying, if you build a better mouse trap, people will buy it. The thing is, the term 'better' can be quite subjective.

If hanging a transmission on the rear bumper had that special blend mentioned above, that would most likely be what we'd be doing. There may be exceptions to that saying, but they are just that, exceptions, and I don't see the derailleur system as one of those exceptions. YMMV.

I ride MTB for enjoyment, and the resulting fitness that comes along with it. If I didn't enjoy it as much as I do, I probably would do it as often. I really don't want to stand up and pedal up a hill for literally miles on end. I did that riding my Schwinn Sting Ray all over creation when I was a teenager. That was the part of riding that bike that I liked the least.

Not sure I'd classify anyone that rides up hills for miles as lazy compared to the average human, because that is fairly hard work. If MTB was easy, more people would be out there doing it. If riding with gears makes me 'lazier' or less skilled than I would be otherwise than the SS crowd, I'll just have to live with that shame, but I think I can handle it.

I will also say that there are some folks that enjoy being somewhat of a contrarian. If everyone is riding a Specialized, Trek, or Giant, they want to ride something else purely for the sake of riding something that others are not usually seen riding. I'd be lying if I said I didn't believe SSing had that appeal to at least some that do it. Not saying it's wrong, right, or otherwise, just saying that there are some folks that make gear choices with that in mind in pretty much every pursuit I have been involved in that involves acquiring gear.

The SS riders that I know are generally very skilled, and very fit. SSing has probably contributed to that. Some have ended up with knee issues, and it's likely that they may not have been 'doing it right'. Because I have a tendency to prefer to ride up hills seated, whether I be mashing or spinning, I don't really want to gamble with my knees in case I end up 'doing it wrong'.

I do admire the SSers that I know for their fitness and skills, but I don't see myself ever being one to prefer SS. If you do, enjoy the way you ride. Be who you are. I know I'll be doing the same, most likely with gears :~)


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## OddTrickStar (Aug 22, 2014)

L' oiseu, me thinks you are taking this bicycle banter way too seriously.

Sometimes the effort we put into bringing things into our comfort zone would be better used on adapting to something outside of our zone.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

OddTrickStar said:


> Me thinks you are taking this bicycle banter way too seriously.
> 
> Sometimes the effort we put into bringing things into our comfort zone would be better used on adapting to something outside of our zone.


Maybe that depends on how you define "better". You don't have to adapt to my version of it any more than I need to adapt to yours. I just want to get out and enjoy riding the way I want to do it. My version of enjoyment is what keeps me riding. Your version of it may vary, and that's OK too. I have plenty of other more important changes in life to adapt to.


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

OddTrickStar said:


> L' oiseu, me thinks you are taking this bicycle banter way too seriously.
> 
> Sometimes the effort we put into bringing things into our comfort zone would be better used on adapting to something outside of our zone.


I moderate another forum. I think I get it dude... but still I try to see forums as sharing stories and pictures as entertainment, bsing around, and once in a while finding some useful info or learning something new. All the 'stoke', preaching, self-promotion, banter, or other general garbage I generally ignore. It's fun to see you guys get worked up over all this though... I really question who is taking it too serious  I could actually care less about what bike you ride, how fast or strong you are, or most of what has been posted on here.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

l'oiseau said:


> It's only threatening when you use it to make yourself seem better than someone else.


I do perceive that kind of 'tude from some SS/rigid riders (SOME) that think it somehow actually makes them 'more' of a rider than somebody on something different. I wouldn't say I would describe it as 'threatening' though. 'Douche-y' would be more accurate.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Def. not saying I'm any better then anyone for any reason. Just some observations after 10 years pushing 1 gear. As I said at the end, riding, or any pursuit in life should be about your personal experience.


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

I rode a rigid, single speed BMX bike 20 years ago - didn't care for it. To me riding a bike with bigger wheels, multiple gears and suspension was where it's at. I'm still there and I feel they are better than ever now. Maybe someday I'll revert back, but I like to ride slowly and poorly on a bike that costs too much - it's kind of fun


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

<sigh>

i like my singlespeed.

i like my geared bikes.

i LIKE how riding a (fully rigid) singlespeed has taught me to carry momentum and to get better at picking lines.

there are a lot of riders who ride both geared and singlespeed that are a lot faster than me.

that's OK.

that is all...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

DaveVt said:


> Def. not saying I'm any better then anyone for any reason. Just some observations after 10 years pushing 1 gear. As I said at the end, riding, or any pursuit in life should be about your personal experience.


You are definitely not one of the people I was thinking of.

I also like SS rigid mtbs. I have a couple of them, one trail, one DJ, as well as a couple BMX bikes. And DH bikes and old XC HT weight weenie bikes and 4-5-6-7" FS bikes. All dish out the good times IME.


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

jeffj said:


> If only that were true. "Practice makes permanent, and only perfect practice has a chance to make perfect" would be closer to the truth.
> 
> If you practice doing something using poor form, you're more likely to get really good at doing it the wrong way than to suddenly attain perfect form.


A good point to make, and an add on to that is that I'm of the opinion that something like a rigid SS forces better form because of a few things but primarily 2.

1: You end up having to get off and walk the bike if you don't do it right.
2: The bike itself has a lot less in the way of controls and settings to distract from what your body is doing.

Granted you can still do it wrong in some ways and hurt yourself, but you can do that on any bike in the same or different ways. It seems so strange to me that several folks on this thread think an SS somehow has a higher probability of injury than other types of bikes when AFAIK there is no data out there one way or another.

And just so I'm not mistaken even though I brought it up earlier in the thread:

I ride a fully rigid SS.

I ride a geared FS bike.

I ride a fully rigid geared CX bike. 

All of them have attributes that have crossed over to make me a better rider of the other two.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

big_slacker said:


> A good point to make, and an add on to that is that I'm of the opinion that something like a rigid SS forces better form because of a few things but primarily 2.
> 
> 1: You end up having to get off and walk the bike if you don't do it right.
> 2: The bike itself has a lot less in the way of controls and settings to distract from what your body is doing.
> ...


With all due respect, I disagree with your 1st and 2nd points for a few reasons.

1. Anyone who has had coaching or been around competitive athletes in general will know a major aspect of training is building mental discipline and fortitude. This level of discipline ensures the athlete pushes themselves in a healthy and incremental way. They will not need to use restrictive apparatus to prevent them 'bailing' out into a lower gears which is acceptable btw and in terms of racing, still far better than walking. Poor concentration like playing with controls or even not using then correctly would definitely be addressed as part of the training process rather than avoided by removal.

2. Any sports physio and team doctor will drum into your head the importance of listening to your body for warning signs and responding accordingly. Self preservation is a big deal as any athlete and his team will know any injury will take them out of the competition.

3. A geared bike will always allow the athlete to train more effectively in regards to varying training on fast and slow twitch muscles, cadence with intervals, diff speeds, cardio response etc. Effective training is not straight forward.

4. There is nothing offered by an SS which is not available from bike with gears. Any rider can develop his riding technique and line spotting just as well and even exert himself even more with gears.

5. What fixed ratio will an SS have ? How appropriate will be for the new route you want to ride ? Will you end up walking or spinning out ? It's completely route dependent so you may end up training 20% of the ride time instead of the target 80%.

Let's face it, SS is retro, fun, clean and for many it's cool but let's not overrate it. As a training apparatus, it ranks at the bottom.

I am 100% sure the OP DaveVT could have jumped, pumped and improved himself just as well on a geared bike. I am sure you could too.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

c8stom said:


> With all due respect, I disagree with your 1st and 2nd points for a few reasons.
> 
> 1. Anyone who has had coaching or been around competitive athletes in general will know a major aspect of training is building mental discipline and fortitude. This level of discipline ensures the athlete pushes themselves in a healthy and incremental way. They will not need to use restrictive apparatus to prevent them 'bailing' out into a lower gears which is acceptable btw and in terms of racing, still far better than walking. Poor concentration like playing with controls or even not using then correctly would definitely be addressed as part of the training process rather than avoided by removal.
> 
> ...


this ^^^^^^^^^is so full of LOL!!!


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

c8stom said:


> I am 100% sure the OP DaveVT could have jumped, pumped and improved himself just as well on a geared bike. I am sure you could too.


Riders don't push themselves to do it if you have they option of bailing out to a smaller gear and having a seat. It will accelerate the progression in the direction of skills that are the weakness for most riders who come strictly from a road bike or multi-geared suspension bike.

It's kind of crazy to think that two people riding the same trails on very different bikes will develop the same skills and riding styles over time. Of course the lesson will be different every day. The bikes, the lines, cadence, how their body develops, virtually everything will be different in their evolution as MTBers in the context of them both becoming strong trail riders., they will have different strengths. Point I was trying to make without insulting anyone or coming off as narcissistic, was that fine tuned, technical bike skills and balance will get really sharp, and be more important, and more transformative then added strength you might gain.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

DaveVt said:


> Riders don't push themselves to do it if you have they option of bailing out to a smaller gear and having a seat. It will accelerate the progression in the direction of skills that are the weakness for most riders who come strictly from a road bike or multi-geared suspension bike.


Are you speaking for yourself or on behalf of the entire population of cyclists ?. If you clarify you are the one who bails out and therefore you need an SS, then that's fair enough. If you are generalising, then I strongly disagree


DaveVt said:


> It's kind of crazy to think that two people riding the same trails on very different bikes will develop the same skills and riding styles over time. Of course the lesson will be different every day. The bikes, the lines, cadence, how their body develops, virtually everything will be different in their evolution as MTBers in the context of them both becoming strong trail riders., they will have different strengths. Point I was trying to make without insulting anyone or coming off as narcissistic, was that fine tuned, technical bike skills and balance will get really sharp, and be more important, and more transformative then added strength you might gain.


Back to my earlier point, a bike with gears but where the user chooses not to change gear is dynamically equivalent to a SS of the same gear ratio. The rider can choose to ride a geared bike like it's an SS, However, as I and others have pointed out, when the going gets too easy, a geared bike can be switched up whereas the SS will just end up spinning out.

I once had a similar discussion with my photography friends where one guy claimed he was a better photographer as he used a classic 35mm SLR. He assumed everyone else using digital SLRs were using the Auto function. Same thing.... How would he know ?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

c8stom makes good points IMO. 

I mean, noone actually thinks that there's not millions of people pushing hard on geared bikes do they? That's simply ridiculous.

And they also don't get wrapped up into not uncommon SS ego trip, which is a bonus for the rest of us.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

"Oh single speed. What gear do you have" 

"Oh so that's like my 32:17. I'll just ride in that today" 


15 minutes later.....

click. click. click.

That NEVER happens. 









Ha ha totally kidding, that does happen though. 

I guess I was speaking in generalities.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Interesting topic. I consider myself a full-suspension rider. I don't mind climbing, but I ride for the steep chunky gnar descents. I mostly ride in Phoenix. And I generally have a single-speed, front-suspended 29er in my garage.

I LOVE to ride SS; it has its own form of purity.

That said, I've found myself over the years really disagreeing with this concept that riding SS makes you a "better rider." I think there's very little skill or fitness transfer as riding SS and riding a fully are two really different things.

Just my perception. Not a knock on SS, as I really enjoy it. As an aside, as I've gotten older, I find that SS is (for me) easier on my knees as long as you're standing.


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

No multi quotes to keep things sane.

If the points are that you can lock out your suspension fork and rear shock, set a particular gear ratio (wrap some duct tape around the shifters for god's sake man!) and have yourself a really heavy rigid SS with a bad chainline for training purposes then sure. You've saved yourself some serious dough, why didn't I think of that??!! 

Please don't quote and argue with the above, I understand the points made and I'm f'in around with a grin on my face as I type. Sure you can map out a progression of bike handling skills, fitness, mental toughness and all the other stuff if you have your **** together like that, or if as mentioned you're a well coached athlete. 

I don't really think that any of the SS riders on this thread are trying to argue that an SS is the ultimate swiss army knife training tool for mountain biking, or that you can't learn the things you learn from them on a different type of bike. Just that they organically teach you some biking skills in a very fun way that 'clicks' for some people. Maybe the simple minded ones.


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## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

This thread has inspired me to take the last few weeks of rides on my hardtail and just leave it in the tallest gear combination to see where I can get just hammering and picking my points.
It's been instructive with regard to finding new areas where I can and should carry speed, where I'd otherwise just snag a low gear and the bleed speed off at the bottom of the hill until I was in my cadence on the shorter gear, but in the taller gear I have to front-load that effort so I can stay over 15rpm at the steepest points, but I'm carrying speed places I wouldn't have expected to.
My transitions from seating pedaling up moderate climbs to standing and back have gotten a touch more fluid, but mostly because I'm just getting lots of practice doing more of them. Same deal with the looser corners where exit speed becomes a bigger priority, I'm actually gaining time though it feels slower, albeit I'm giving up some of the acceleration out of the turns because I'm in a 38:11, which is a bit ridiculous.
I have had to walk a few sections, and doing this on my geared bike means that when long slow climbs at my wife's pace means no hope of leaving it in that super-tall gear so I do cheat and use two other gear combinations.

On pavement, with the 38:11 I'm somewhat frequently wishing I could just click down the gear once to stay right on my cadence and push a slightly easier gear (hills, headwinds), but I've gained an appreciation for just hammering and letting the constant pedaling RPM to speed ratio be my accountability. By the time I'm spun out in this combo, pedaling isn't super-enjoyable anyway, and I have to question if getting more aerodynamic is worth more than trying to summon 200W of hamster-power trying to sustain 25mph.
Above all, I'm now looking at the various granny gear combinations on this and my primary FS all mountain bike with increasing disdain, but I also know the climbs I pedal up to justify those combos (22:36 is a stump-puller of a gear) are ones I'd be unquestionably walking on a SS rig... but realizing I could do with a taller gear and slightly better technique is starting to open up possibilities of 1x11 drivetrains covering the really diverse speeds I go (going up a 40% grade needs a really short granny, but coming back down means I want a ludicrously tall gear on the other extreme).


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

tehllama said:


> This thread has inspired me to take the last few weeks of rides on my hardtail and just leave it in the tallest gear combination to see where I can get just hammering and picking my points.
> It's been instructive with regard to finding new areas where I can and should carry speed, where I'd otherwise just snag a low gear and the bleed speed off at the bottom of the hill until I was in my cadence on the shorter gear, but in the taller gear I have to front-load that effort so I can stay over 15rpm at the steepest points, but I'm carrying speed places I wouldn't have expected to.
> My transitions from seating pedaling up moderate climbs to standing and back have gotten a touch more fluid, but mostly because I'm just getting lots of practice doing more of them. Same deal with the looser corners where exit speed becomes a bigger priority, I'm actually gaining time though it feels slower, albeit I'm giving up some of the acceleration out of the turns because I'm in a 38:11, which is a bit ridiculous.
> I have had to walk a few sections, and doing this on my geared bike means that when long slow climbs at my wife's pace means no hope of leaving it in that super-tall gear so I do cheat and use two other gear combinations.
> ...


38 : 11 is a bit different than 32 : 20 which is how my SS is geared.

just sayin'...


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## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

shekky said:


> 38 : 11 is a bit different than 32 : 20 which is how my SS is geared.
> 
> just sayin'...


Curiously, that was the gear I was using as the bail-out when I was cheating - 24:15 is the same ratio (and the other one was 38:15), and corresponds to the granny ring and the tallest gear that isn't torquing the poop out of the chain. I still was only using that for relatively tame climbs, but after being a pig-headed as possible about leaving it in that 38:11, that 1.6 ratio combination was seriously nice by comparison.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

tehllama said:


> This thread has inspired me to take the last few weeks of rides on my hardtail and just leave it in the tallest gear combination to see where I can get just hammering and picking my points.
> It's been instructive with regard to finding new areas where I can and should carry speed, where I'd otherwise just snag a low gear and the bleed speed off at the bottom of the hill until I was in my cadence on the shorter gear, but in the taller gear I have to front-load that effort so I can stay over 15rpm at the steepest points, but I'm carrying speed places I wouldn't have expected to.
> My transitions from seating pedaling up moderate climbs to standing and back have gotten a touch more fluid, but mostly because I'm just getting lots of practice doing more of them. Same deal with the looser corners where exit speed becomes a bigger priority, I'm actually gaining time though it feels slower, albeit I'm giving up some of the acceleration out of the turns because I'm in a 38:11, which is a bit ridiculous.
> I have had to walk a few sections, and doing this on my geared bike means that when long slow climbs at my wife's pace means no hope of leaving it in that super-tall gear so I do cheat and use two other gear combinations.
> ...


nice novel, guy^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

While I admire the added strength of you SSers, I fear that you are tearing up your knees. Something has to give eventually.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Hawg said:


> While I admire the added strength of you SSers, I fear that you are tearing up your knees. Something has to give eventually.


i dunno, i think i'll be ok. i'm fifty three and mix up my single speeding with geared bikes. usually, it's three rides on a geared bike for every one on the SS.

i rarely ride the SS more than two rides in a row.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

shekky said:


> i dunno, i think i'll be ok. i'm fifty three and mix up my single speeding with geared bikes. usually, it's three rides on a geared bike for every one on the SS.
> 
> i rarely ride the SS more than two rides in a row.


That's smart.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

No pedal world cup win. No chain, no problem...just brake less, corner faster, and pump everything. Go Gwin! 
Video: Aaron Gwin Unchained - Pinkbike


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

I don't have a trail-ready SS, but all I know is that when I ride my SS commuter to work consistently, I am a stronger rider on the trails.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

These damned arrogant SS cats are killing me. Are you also vegans?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DaveVt said:


> No pedal world cup win. No chain, no problem...just brake less, corner faster, and pump everything. Go Gwin!
> Video: Aaron Gwin Unchained - Pinkbike


^That ranks up there with one of the best moments in sports I've seen, awesome! I will concede that riding a ss (bmx) contributed to Gwin's downhill skills.

I wonder if Aaron was surprised when he saw his time at the finish line or if he knew he was in contention on the way down? I only saw the short interview after the race and he didn't elaborate.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

BMX definitely contributed, but it had nothing to do with gearing and everything to do with bike handling skillz. As demonstrated.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

Man, I just rode my rigid, 26" singlespeed and gotta say... I feel like I'm a better rider. 
Seriously.


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## jmmUT (Sep 15, 2008)

Crankout said:


> These damned arrogant SS cats are killing me. Are you also vegans?


A lot of breweries use fish by-products in the filtering process. So no.


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

I will agree with the OP on this one: his entire post can be summed up with "Riding a SS definitely helps your momentum management."


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

c8stom said:


> With all due respect, I disagree with your 1st and 2nd points for a few reasons.
> 
> 1. ... They will not need to use restrictive apparatus to prevent them 'bailing' out into a lower gears which is acceptable btw and in terms of racing, still far better than walking.
> 
> ...


This is pretty much BS... I ride a geared HT, but have been exploring SS riding. It is very different from geared. When you ride geared you always try to keep your legs moving at the optimal cadence. You change gears with the terrain to do that. When you SS you rarely are at the ideal cadence so you have to work to widen your optimal cadence range. By using only one ratio you have develop your body to be able hammer and using lots of torque on the climbs and then be able to spin on the flats. It also drives you try to adjust your speed on the bike to push you into a cadence that works. Slow down too much and you will never have the power to get up that short climb. Keep your speed and you will have the cadence you need to keep going.

I ride SS style by simply keeping the bike in my 32x17 gear ratio. Since I ride a 26er that comes to a 32x19 ratio for a 29er which is a reasonable ratio. I will say I am strong enough to run that ratio over most terrain, but once the grade goes to 15% for more than I few feet I struggle. I am not strong enough to maintain that ratio. However by doing this I am getting stronger over all since a grade like that used force me into a 22/34 or 22/30 ratio and I would spin like crazy. Now I know I can go up that easy in my 32/34.

Overall riding like this is forcing me be a stronger more versatile rider. Now when I ride geared I can power up steep stuff alot faster. That applies to mtn bike and road bike too. I really believe that if you can ride SS well then geared riding feels like cheating. That said if you are a long time SSer you still need time on a geared bike to really optimize the mechanical advantage it they give you. So done right a SS bike can really help you as part of training regiment to make you faster overall.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

JoePAz said:


> When you ride geared you always try to keep your legs moving at the optimal cadence. You change gears with the terrain to do that. When you SS you rarely are at the ideal cadence so you have to work to widen your optimal cadence range. By using only one ratio you have develop your body to be able hammer and using lots of torque on the climbs and then be able to spin on the flats. It also drives you try to adjust your speed on the bike to push you into a cadence that works. Slow down too much and you will never have the power to get up that short climb. Keep your speed and you will have the cadence you need to keep going.


You need to change every instance of the word 'you' above to the word 'I', as 'you' have absolutely no idea whatsoever of how 'I' ride and can only speak for yourself.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

JoePAz said:


> When you ride geared you always try to keep your legs moving at the optimal cadence. You change gears with the terrain to do that.


Sometimes true, but when _I_ learned to ride a geared bike (road bike/pre-mtb era) I had a strong desire to become better so I rode with stronger riders and tried to emulate some of the things pros did. Sometimes I'd spend entire rides in my small ring spinning @ 120+ rpm while hanging with other riders who were hammering their big gears. Other rides I might shift into my biggest gear and ride at maximum intensity until I saw stars and felt like puking, down shift until I barely recovered, and then throw it back in the big ring and do it again. 6 or 7 of those efforts would generally leave me whimpering and drooling.

I know it's road but all of that work I put in years ago still pay off on the trail for me today, believe me momentum is your friend on the road too. I do agree that ss forces your hand and for lots of people it might be the best tool for improvement, but I also think there are many paths that can lead to the same destination.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

SS might make YOU a better rider, but it would make me a non-rider, because it would certainly destroy my knees. I could destroy my knees on a geared bike too, if it did not have low enough gears or I chose (out of some misplaced macho thing or whatever) not to use them.


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

andytiedye said:


> SS might make YOU a better rider, but it would make me a non-rider, because it would certainly destroy my knees. I could destroy my knees on a geared bike too, if it did not have low enough gears or I chose (out of some misplaced macho thing or whatever) not to use them.


Why would it "certainly destroy" your knees?


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*Still don't get it*



SeaBass_ said:


> Why would it "certainly destroy" your knees?


Still don't get it. Everyone is different and only each individual can determine what works for them. You can not know how a SS would affect another persons knees. A SS would certainly destroy *MY *knees. I tried a 1x11 and it destroyed my knees. So a SS would be better? I needed all of my 2X10 on this ride today. What percentage of riders on this site could do it on a SS? Ride what you like but please don't assume everybody should be doing what you do.






​


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Wherewolf said:


> Still don't get it. Everyone is different and only each individual can determine what works for them. You can not know how a SS would affect another persons knees. A SS would certainly destroy *MY *knees. I tried a 1x11 and it destroyed my knees. So a SS would be better? I needed all of my 2X10 on this ride today. What percentage of riders on this site could do it on a SS? Ride what you like but please don't assume everybody should be doing what you do.
> 
> View attachment 997508​


SS used to be known for being hard on the knees....but that was also back in the day when everyone ran waaayyy too hard of a gear. People in very mountainous areas running 2:1. We have all gotten a little smarter and have altered our gearing a little better.

And as to your ride.....the fact it is at elevation would be more of a factor than the ride profile...otherwise I would ride the SS no question.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Wherewolf said:


> Still don't get it. Everyone is different and only each individual can determine what works for them. You can not know how a SS would affect another persons knees. A SS would certainly destroy *MY *knees. I tried a 1x11 and it destroyed my knees. So a SS would be better? I needed all of my 2X10 on this ride today. What percentage of riders on this site could do it on a SS? Ride what you like but please don't assume everybody should be doing what you do.
> 
> View attachment 997508​


heh heh heh...i could ride maybe..MAYBE half of that..._very_ slowly...on my single speed...

i might also add the the terrain one rides might not be the best for riding a single gear. i know the sierras around tahoe, bear valley and downieville. climbing that sort of terrain on a SS would be tortuous in my mind.

having to ascend some of the longer fire road climbs here in the bay area is bad enough...there are rides around here i won't do on my SS.


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*Well?*



mtnbikej said:


> ...And as to your ride.....the fact it is at elevation would be more of a factor than the ride profile...*otherwise *I would ride the SS no question.


So you couldn't/wouldn't ride it on your SS? And you SSers please answer my question "What percentage of riders on this site could do it on a SS?"


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Wherewolf said:


> So you couldn't/wouldn't ride it on your SS? And you SSers please answer my question "What percentage of riders on this site could do it on a SS?"


As a rider who lives at sea level....the elevation would hurt me more than the ride profile....but yes I would ride it.

As for % of SS who would ride it.....hard to say.....but I know I don't let the ride dictate which bike I ride. We are going for a ride....I grab the SS.

Also the graph you posted up above, makes the ride seem way worse than it is....if you look at the lower graph(red arrow), it is not as up and down as the elevatioin graph shows. It only averages out to 150' per mile. Just my observation.








Here is a 12hr race I did earlier this year on the SS:


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

it certainly adds muscle to your legs... I have been monitoring my body fat % and when I started riding ss, I added 4 lbs of muscle... 

But it makes sense, I ride a lot of hills and the SS forces your legs to work very hard on hills... 

I am not so sure the SS is better for aerobic training and/or burning fat... maybe not..


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*Duuh*



mtnbikej said:


> As a rider who lives at sea level....the elevation would hurt me more than the ride profile....but yes I would ride it.
> As for % of SS who would ride it.....hard to say.....but I know I don't let the ride dictate which bike I ride. We are going for a ride....I grab the SS.


Duuh, still don"t get it. How does your ability to do a SS ride help anybody else? But you sure like to dictate what everybody else should ride. I maintain that less than 1% on this site could do that ride on a SS.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

RajunCajun44 said:


> it certainly adds muscle to your legs... I have been monitoring my body fat % and when I started riding ss, I added 4 lbs of muscle...
> 
> But it makes sense, I ride a lot of hills and the SS forces your legs to work very hard on hills...
> 
> I am not so sure the SS is better for aerobic training and/or burning fat... maybe not..


I don't know....I dropped nearly 30 lbs. when I started to ride the SS....and I am sure that I gained muscle mass.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

mtnbikej said:


> I don't know....I dropped nearly 30 lbs. when I started to ride the SS....and I am sure that I gained muscle mass.


well if you didn't increase your time in the saddle/week, then I guess it does help burn fat.. but didn't you fall in love with the SS and increase your riding time ?


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Wherewolf said:


> Duuh, still don"t get it. How does your ability to do a SS ride help anybody else? But you sure like to dictate what everybody else should ride. I maintain that less than 1% on this site could do that ride on a SS.


But then again, 46 miles/7000' of climbing.....I would wager that the % of riders on the board could do that ride at all would be small. Riders that only do 1-2 hr rides/10-20 miles would have a difficult time with it.

I'm not telling anybody what they should ride....you asked what % of SS could do that ride....I'm just saying that I am pretty sure there are guys/gals here that could knock it out.

If SS is for you.....great....if it is not for you....great. Personally I really like it and the challenges it poses


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

RajunCajun44 said:


> well if you didn't increase your time in the saddle/week, then I guess it does help burn fat.. but didn't you fall in love with the SS and increase your riding time ?


Yup......not so much the SS thing, I was already hooked on that for a couple of years....it really changed when i started to doing big miles.


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## Singletrackd (May 3, 2015)

Wherewolf you sure are doing alot or hating 

I would love to ride that on my ss, especially if it was all single track 
Oh and i bet I could piss farther than you


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*Duuh*



mtnbikej said:


> But then again, 46 miles/7000' of climbing.....*I would wager that the % of riders on the board could do that ride at all*. Riders that only do 1-2 hr rides/10-20 miles would have a difficult time with it. I'm not telling anybody what they should ride....you asked what % of SS could do that ride....I'm just saying that I am pretty sure there are guys/gals here that could knock it out.


Duuh, you still haven't answered my question. I highlighted what you wrote and it makes absolutely no sense. Hard to argue with a nonsensical answer. Bottom line, read the very first response to the OP's post, mine. SS isn't for everybody.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

JoePAz said:


> Overall riding like this is forcing me be a stronger more versatile rider. Now when I ride geared I can power up steep stuff alot faster. That applies to mtn bike and road bike too. I really believe that if you can ride SS well then geared riding feels like cheating. That said if you are a long time SSer you still need time on a geared bike to really optimize the mechanical advantage it they give you. So done right a SS bike can really help you as part of training regiment to make you faster overall.


As others and I have said in this thread and other threads, a rider can use a geared bike for low cadence training too. Low cadence training is not exclusive to SS bikes.

Your post is great proof of this where you have adjusted the ratios accordingly to challenge yourself. That is exactly the point some of us were trying to make. Congrats and thanks for sharing.



c8stom said:


> 3. A geared bike will always allow the athlete to train more effectively in regards to varying training on fast and slow twitch muscles, cadence with intervals, diff speeds, cardio response etc. Effective training is not straight forward.


On my own point, I did not rule out low cadence training in a regime, I was merely pointing types of training that are more difficult or performed less effectively on an SS. Please read again


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Wherewolf said:


> Duuh, still don"t get it. How does your ability to do a SS ride help anybody else? But you sure like to dictate what everybody else should ride. I maintain that less than 1% on this site could do that ride on a SS.


Likely less than 1% of people on here ride a SS at all. That ride over 7.5 hours. I think a much high percentage of Single Speeders could do that is 7.5 hours. I mean 7.5 hours....your average is like 5mph.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

I'm so threatened by what you ride I have to justify myself to all you faceless riders on the interdweebs.


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

I have no idea about percentage, but as the other Steve and I discussed earlier in the thread I've done big tahoe rides SS when I lived up there. 

As someone sane above mentioned gearing matters. I was running 32x20 (I experimented with 22 but it had traction issues since summer riding is so sandy) with a fairly light 29er. I was conditioned to do pretty much all the climbing standing and of course with some of the spots I end up walking (final climb up to monument pass FI) but that's SS. As has been mentioned above so many times when you're standing and pedaling you ARE NOT subjecting your knees to the same forces as seated pedaling in too large a gear. That doesn't mean you won't hurt yourself, but you won't hurt yourself in the same way (knee injury) as you would running too tough a gear, too low a candence, etc. seated. I would say you're probably at greater risk for hip, hamstring or ankle issues climbing a lot SS. Or maybe I should say *I* because so much of this is dependent on the individual as his/her strengths and weaknesses. 

Wherewolf is 60+ (I think!) and shot knees from running earlier in life so the guy above dogging him for going slow or needing 'easy' gearing for those rides should get back to us at that age. 

FWIW I did a modded punisher (including a bike stash and up to freel peak!) earlier this year 1x10 on my SC 5010: Close to 30 lbs with maxxis HR2 and 'enduro' wheelset. I think the SS version might be easier, haha!


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*Can't read*



Singletrackd said:


> Wherewolf you sure are doing alot or hating. I would love to ride that on my ss, especially if it was all single track
> Oh and i bet I could piss farther than you


Pointing out that SS is not for everyone is not hating.



Wherewolf said:


> Better is totally subjective. Depends on what types of trails you ride, your riding preferences, age, fitness, knee health, etc. It would make me a much worse rider and I wouldn't be able to ride as much as I want on the trails I like.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Wherewolf said:


> Duuh, you still haven't answered my question. I highlighted what you wrote and it makes absolutely no sense. Hard to argue with a nonsensical answer. Bottom line, read the very first response to the OP's post, mine. SS isn't for everybody.


My religion is what's best for you. Trust me...


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

Wherewolf said:


> What percentage of riders on this site could do it on a SS?
> 
> View attachment 997508​


I don't know the percentage of SSer's on this site who could do this ride but 100% of myself & the 6 other SSer's (ranging in age from 30 to 50) I ride with could knock it out no problem. That's a great looking ride to me, actually. And props to you for riding it regularly!

Regarding knees: I only ride gears on the road currently & those rides are the only ones that I end up with knee pain. Why? Dunno but probably sitting too much & pushing too hard a gear uphill. I usually end up standing quite a bit, though. Sitting brings pains to my bumcakes.


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## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

I got enough crap from my riding buddies when I lost the FD, front shifter, chainring and '10 gears'......... I can't imagine the crap storm if I lost 9 of the last 10 that I have. 

On a bright side, I guess I would not hear much of their crap, because I wouldn't be able to ride with them any longer, as I am only a mere mortal.


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

redwarrior said:


> Why? Dunno but probably sitting too much & pushing too hard a gear uphill. I usually end up standing quite a bit, though. Sitting brings pains to my bumcakes.


Low cadence, too hard a gear and too low a seat are the trifecta of knee killers with a geared bike. I have geared road and FS bikes and I just have to mentally switch pedaling styles between them. 80-90 RPM feels like hamster wheel action after SS standing and grinding but that's the way to go.


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

Wherewolf said:


> So you couldn't/wouldn't ride it on your SS? And you SSers please answer my question "What percentage of riders on this site could do it on a SS?"


At that pace, a lot of SSers, myself included, could do it. As stated before, the altitude would definitely come into play. I don't know/don't care what percentage total could ride it. You still didn't answer why, with the appropriate gearing, it would "destroy" your knees. Duuuh.


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## Grimgrin (Sep 15, 2014)

The last time I used the word duh, I was in grade school.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

big_slacker said:


> Low cadence, too hard a gear and too low a seat are the trifecta of knee killers with a geared bike.


Why would it be any different on a SS? The gearing is over twice as high as what I'd use for climbing on a geared bike on a steep hill, so of course my cadence would be way too low. The only variable I could still control is seat height.



SeaBass_ said:


> You still didn't answer why, with the appropriate gearing, it would "destroy" your knees.


Lack of appropriate gearing IS the problem. Appropriate gearing for me on a 20% grade is around 2:3, not the 3:2 or more that is typical of SS. Even as I have gotten stronger, the gearing I need to keep my knees out of trouble has not changed. Sitting or standing.

No SS for me, no 1X either.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

SeaBass_ said:


> At that pace, a lot of SSers, myself included, could do it. As stated before, the altitude would definitely come into play. I don't know/don't care what percentage total could ride it. You still didn't answer why, with the appropriate gearing, it would "destroy" your knees. Duuuh.


Looks like some of us have sunken deep into the realms of conjecture. Since when have SS and non-SS riders been a different breed with SS riders being superior ? How can anyone even begin to guess how other SSers can ride a course not knowing their fitness stats or they SS gear ratio let alone compare with Non-SSers.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

c8stom said:


> Looks like some of us have sunken deep into the realms of conjecture. Since when have SS and non-SS riders been a different breed with SS riders being superior ? How can anyone even begin to guess how other SSers can ride a course not knowing their fitness stats or they SS gear ratio let alone compare with Non-SSers.


EXACTLY! just because i ride a single speed does not mean that there's not a hundred guys and gals that can pass me like i'm riding backwards--whether i'm on my single speed or a geared bike.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

redwarrior said:


> I don't know the percentage of SSer's on this site who could do this ride but 100% of myself & the 6 other SSer's (ranging in age from 30 to 50) I ride with could knock it out no problem. That's a great looking ride to me, actually. And props to you for riding it regularly!
> 
> Regarding knees: I only ride gears on the road currently & those rides are the only ones that I end up with knee pain. Why? Dunno but probably sitting too much & pushing too hard a gear uphill. I usually end up standing quite a bit, though. Sitting brings pains to my bumcakes.


I could do it on a 32x22... and I know about 3 others that could do it..

If I had to estimate... I would say at least 30% of single speeders could do it... maybe as high as 50% could do it...


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

RajunCajun44 said:


> If I had to estimate... I would say at least 30% of single speeders could do it... maybe as high as 50% could do it...


Come on, which is it ? 30% or 50%


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

andytiedye said:


> Why would it be any different on a SS? The gearing is over twice as high as what I'd use for climbing on a geared bike on a steep hill, so of course my cadence would be way too low. The only variable I could still control is seat height.
> No SS for me, no 1X either.


Because on a steep hill your climbing is done STANDING upright and using a ton of body english to turn the cranks which is nothing like the same forces on your knees as seated grinding in too high a gear. I feel some serious deja vu here. 

BTW-Wherewolf's ride would kill most riders regardless of bikes cause they don't realize they'd be doing massive climbs on sandy soil and constant small boulder hops/scrambles at 7000+ feet with thin air and sun beating them into submission.

That's why people get murdered at the tahoe ironman too, regardless of how many gears they have. The map is not the terrain.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

big_slacker said:


> Because on a steep hill your climbing is done STANDING upright and using a ton of body english to turn the cranks which is nothing like the same forces on your knees as seated grinding in too high a gear.


You think I haven't tried that on my geared bike?

Standing up and mashing puts the hurt on my knees. It is the force needed to avoid stalling out at the bottom of the stroke that is the problem. Putting weight on the pedals does nothing at that point. Gotta push the top pedal forward with that knee in a very bent position. This may be less of an issue for riders with longer legs as they do not need to bend their knees so far.


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

I'm not a riding coach, PT guy or can even see your technique. Don't want to internet analyze you in particular but if this is a discussion and not an argument (which I'm not interested in) then you can try:

Really accentuating bar/bike rocking (you might not being using as much bar push/pull as you think) to get the bent leg 'over the top'.

Focusing on straight leg drive at the bottom vs thinking about pushing at all on the bent leg. 

When you stall get off and walk it. 

Dropping to a gear where you don't stall and riding hills till you get stronger. 

FWIW I do not think having short legs is a determining factor. The guy that got me into SS was 5'6" and ran an ungodly ratio, IIRC 32x12 or 32x14.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

But really, what's the point? 
I'm still missing it.

Some people ride SS cuz that's what their preferred set-up.
Doesn't mean it's something everyone wants or or needs to do, or that it's inherently superior in any way, as c8stom mentioned.


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> But really, what's the point?
> I'm still missing it.


A few people have summed it up a few times but at the risk of being repetitive:

Riding SS teaches a package of skills, mental toughness and fitness that feed into being a good rider of offroad bikes. They do this organically, through the act of riding without needing any (sometimes hilariously) specific training plans.

SS is *NOT* nor does it need to be for everyone, and you'd have to be deliberately thick to ignore all the SSers saying this throughout the thread.

You can be a good rider without ever riding an SS, and that SHOULD probably go without saying.

It should also go without saying that there seems to be a high percentage of SS riders who are strong/fast. That might be something worth looking into if only to break down how you can get the same benefits on your geared bike.

BTW-There totally is a Vegan + SS bike company, lol! Their gallery is all chicks.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

A single speed can be a gut-buster, literally. I'm pretty sure that riding one was at least partially responsible for my inguinal hernia operation so it's not all hot chicks and glory, there are hazards.

Also, a preliminary finger salute to any subsequent "you should work on your core" suggestions.


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> A single speed can be a gut-buster, literally. I'm pretty sure that riding one was at least partially responsible for my inguinal hernia operation so it's not all hot chicks and glory, there are hazards.
> 
> Also, a preliminary finger salute to any subsequent "you should work on your core" suggestions.


You should work on your core Bro!😀
5 sets of 30 pushups 3x a week has done wonders for my old ass!


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

big_slacker said:


> I'm not a riding coach, PT guy


I thought you were all along... Damn...


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> A single speed can be a gut-buster, literally. I'm pretty sure that riding one was at least partially responsible for my inguinal hernia operation so it's not all hot chicks and glory, there are hazards.
> 
> Also, a preliminary finger salute to any subsequent "you should work on your core" suggestions.


some are cut out for it and some are not.........

vibes bro.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

There is a race coming up this wknd, and my riding buddy and I hit the course yesterday for practice. There is one climb I SMOKED him on (he usually either beats me, or we are even), and at the top he said "yeah, you def made the right choice jumping up one category for the race". 

Riding my single speed has really helped me understand what can be done when you stand up and hammer the pedals. w/o a single speed, I would always sit and spin.


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## hamsterspam (Sep 28, 2014)

and here i thought it was supposed to be about having fun! i love riding single speed,gettin angry at the hills and doing some yellin to get up those steep pitches,but i also love grabbin that big ol dinner plate 42 tooth cog on the 1x10 and just grinding out a climb,or crawling around on the fatbike on the 22x36....are any of them better than the others? i dont really think so....


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## stremf (Dec 7, 2012)

I ride almost exclusively SS in the mountains and road. What I have learned is this: you guys are a bunch of nerds. Just go ride a bike.


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## jcm (Mar 25, 2014)

Who knew SS was such a decisive topic? I'll leave this quote here 



> Ride what you want to ride for whatever reason you choose. If you're on a bike and you're having fun, then you're doing it right


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## mackdhagen (Jun 17, 2011)

Great topic and I'm jumping in late. I race in this local series and mix it up between the SS categories and geared and my times on the SS are faster (same course every year and day). I think its real terrain specific but there is a reason that this promoter starts the SS in front of the other categories...its faster. Last week the guy that won the 45+ geared cat won it on a SS. 
Also in terms of the peeps that swear by the fully ridged, ive riden my SS both ways and, yes you can learn a lot from your riding by running a fully ridged but ultimately a suspended fork will make ya faster. I say this and last night got beat by 1 maybe 2 guys on full ridged SS setups, and I had a 100 mm fork, but they were a lot younger than me..i'm 46. my .o2 great topic!


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## Chalkpaw (Dec 28, 2007)

Here is another take. 
Being a good rider regardless of gear(s) makes you a better hiker, especially off trail hiking. I tell my hiking most only buddies and "guests" that this is true. They often scoff because of that mild hiker vs. biker preconceptions. Then while having a all day or multi-day hike in a place like the Grand Canyon with these dedicated hikers, I'm usually way ahead and using less energy than the others because I'm looking way ahead of where I want to go and I make micro adjustments to my "path". Its a Fast decision making process learned on a bike. Go fast and learn the technique of "flow" regardless of what bit of technology is your favorite and apply that to other fun activities like hiking or running. Or take it to another level of flow to your work environment. Pretty soon you finish your working day earlier (due to efficiency learned on the trail) and then you can go out and ride more! Ride more and work less!


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

jonshonda said:


> Riding my single speed has really helped me understand what can be done when you stand up and hammer the pedals. w/o a single speed, I would always sit and spin.


Putting it another way... a "geared bike" allows the rider to be lazy. You needed a bike that forces you to push your limits. Some can do it without such mechanical help 

(I'm slow on any bike)


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

big ride on the geared MTB:

https://app.strava.com/activities/333138940

pretty much the same ride on the (fully rigid) SS just to prove to myself i could do it:

https://app.strava.com/activities/336630903

notice that my average speed on the SS is 8.7 mph, vs 8.8 mph on the geared bike.

the only difference between the two rides is that i took the shorter route from the marin headlands on tuesday.

on a singlespeed, the saving grace of this ride is that it's nearly flat on the way back from mile 35 to about mile 40 and the climbing after mile forty is negligible. you'll also notice that my time for this ride on the SS is twelve minutes shorter; that could be due to using a two mile shorter route.

so i guess what i'm trying to say is that most reasonably fit riders could do wherewolf's 46 miler on a single speed.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

big_slacker said:


> ...Really accentuating bar/bike rocking (you might not being using as much bar push/pull as you think) to get the bent leg 'over the top'.


Haven't really done that, it would seem to put even more pressure on the knees.



big_slacker said:


> Focusing on straight leg drive at the bottom vs thinking about pushing at all on the bent leg.


At the bottom the straight leg can't do much of anything except push back a little.
Do you mean _before_ the bottom?

More generally, the above would seem to result in a really uneven pedal stroke that would cause my real wheel to break away and lose traction.

Is this what the earlier poster meant about having to climb twice as fast?
That would solve most of the problems if one were physically able to do it,
but that begs the question of whether riding singlespeed is making people stronger or if they had to be twice as strong to begin with in order to do it?

Obviously much depends on how steep the hills are.



big_slacker said:


> When you stall get off and walk it.
> 
> Dropping to a gear where you don't stall and riding hills till you get stronger.


Been doing the latter as much as possible. 
I'd rather ride than walk, and it would seem better for training too.



big_slacker said:


> FWIW I do not think having short legs is a determining factor. The guy that got me into SS was 5'6" and ran an ungodly ratio, IIRC 32x12 or 32x14.


I would call it a contributing factor.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

big_slacker said:


> A few people have summed it up a few times but at the risk of being repetitive:
> 
> Riding SS teaches a package of skills, mental toughness and fitness that feed into being a good rider of offroad bikes. They do this organically, through the act of riding without needing any (sometimes hilariously) specific training plans.
> 
> ...


Breaking my leg taught me the same skills. Getting on the bike after three months of doing little more than sitting on the couch teaches you that every little bit momentum is very important. Now that I have all my strength back, it's made me faster than ever before.

If you need a training tool to reinforce those habits, I'd recommend buying a SS instead of the broken leg though.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Ha...that's funny. Not funny you broke your leg, but funny you think it made you better. 

How injuries make you a better rider....maybe another thread. I noticed that back in the late 90s when I jumped into a tree and severely separated my shoulder. I refused to stop riding through that injury. On my rigid RockHopper Sport for months after (while "healing") every time my line was not smooth I was treated to brutal jarring of a destroyed major joint. I got smooth. I also learned to get the front wheel up without using my arms much which was a game changer back in the riding-while-seated on a seat significantly higher than my handle bars. I also learned I had a back tire and had to be just as precise with it's placement and finally stopped wheeling things only to have my back tire slam into it. I got to tapping my front wheel on top of a log...then weight shift, lift back wheel and place on top of the log, roll off. Eventually the back wheel would just clear the log led to a vault move I use a lot still...lift front wheel just enough to barely case as I unweight the entire bike. That nose bonk lifts the backwheel enough to sail over. Fun. The injury took away my ability to muscle the front end of the bikje over the log, I found another way that was smoother....and more efficient. Limiting technology on your bike will force you to find smoother more efficient ways to ride in the same way as an injury...or you'll quit.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

DaveVt said:


> I also learned to get the front wheel up without using my arms much which was a game changer back in the riding-while-seated on a seat significantly higher than my handle bars.


How do you do that?



DaveVt said:


> I got to tapping my front wheel on top of a log...then weight shift, lift back wheel and place on top of the log, roll off. Eventually the back wheel would just clear the log led to a vault move I use a lot still...lift front wheel just enough to barely case as I unweight the entire bike. That nose bonk lifts the backwheel enough to sail over.


Just shifting my weight, even to the limits of my reach, is never enough to get either wheel off the ground.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

You do need the arms too, but more as levers to transfer the force of your weight shifts to the front end of the bike. The arms don't do much actual work.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

andytiedye said:


> How do you do that?
> 
> Just shifting my weight, even to the limits of my reach, is never enough to get either wheel off the ground.


Well timed pedal stroke in the right gear with a weight shift back, using my butt on the saddle to lever the front tire up. Only works when the seat is up high. Piece of cake. Practice fore-aft weight shifts. When you are comfortable with extreme shift in your center of mass on the bike, you will need way less arm pull with get the front up. Add in a little trail feature to pop the wheel up, or time your weight shift and let the obstacle you are riding over do the work and you're just along for the ride. A completely un-weighted tire want to roll over a lot of things that a weighted tire does not. If your AC joint has been recently destroyed, if you do it wrong it will hurt...a lot.


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