# EXCAVATOR Recommendation: Looking at VOLVO EC20C, CAT and KUBOTA KX018-4



## snowkraft (Apr 12, 2015)

Wondering if anybody can give opinions, especially if you own one of these machines. (Machine list above) How important is the zero tail swing build?? How much do you use the track retract feature to slip thru narrow areas. Which machine has the best designed control set/joystick?? Which has the most power??

I have 170 acres in Sturgeon Bay, WI, and will be building a 10-12 mile long trail with lots of rock features and banked turns. Property is in majority fairly flat, with about 40 acres of hillier terrain, but no super steep grades. Good soil depth in all areas. Mix of hardwood, orchard, planted pines and meadow.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Working from memory, the KX018-4 is a conventional tailswing version of the U17. I don't own a U17, but my employer does, and it's primary purpose is to be used building trail - which is what I do for my employer. So, speaking with some authority ...

I can't help with comparing the two machines, because I know nothing of the Volvo or the Cat. But I can tell you zero tail swing if you're building in second growth wooded areas (ie, something that's been burned, cleared, logged, etc in the past ....50-80 years?) is a huge benefit. It lets you keep things "tight" around trees while not tearing things up. In more open wooded areas and such, I'm not certain how much of a benefit it is. The track retract feature - I think you're looking at wrong. I run with the tracks retracted most of the time to allow a narrower bench to be cut. In the woods, you're almost always going to be working ON your bench, not from beside it, and when you get to a steeper area, you won't want to be anywhere but on that 5 percent bench anyhow. Alternatively, you could cut the bench wider with the tracks extended for extra stability, then take some of the outside edge later to narrow the bench back down, and make a nice transition on the low side of the bench for water flow, but if you're doing it right, your transition should be ok anyhow.

As far as power and controls go, everyone is going to have a different opinion based on what they're used to. One thing I don't think many people will argue about is this: Get a wider bucket than it comes with. Especially in areas that aren't as steep, so you aren't producing as many spoils, a larger bucket makes work much, much faster.


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## snowkraft (Apr 12, 2015)

Wow, great info Cotharyus!! I am surely in a second growth forest, damn aspen. (Actually I do like aspen, but they have their place.) OK, so definitely better to go narrower. The reason I was looking at the K series Kubota is that they have a cab, whereas with U series there appears to be no cab. (I talked to a salesperson and he said there was not a cab available, altho he was really not very knowledgeable.) Cab is good for mosquito control and I'm guessing good to have for safety such as protection from tree branches. 

As far as bucket, what size would you recommend?? Do you recommend any gizmo's such as a tilting bucket??

Is there anything about the Kubota that you do not like, and do you think it would be OK to purchase used or better to buy new. (Do excavators wear fast??) Do you know if there have been any major upgrades in recent models that make buying new advantageous??

Is your Kubota able to penetrate roots and knock over White Pine trees of about 14 inches and smaller?? I have a pine plantation and will be removing about 30 trees for the trail, mostly 10 inches and smaller but a couple a bit bigger. thanks, tom


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

A word about cabs (I'll call them glass enclosures): They're fine in open areas or what have you, but if things get tight, it's easy to knock a window out of one. That's just something to think about.

Tilting buckets could be really nice - they're also very expensive, and represent one more thing to tear up. I've never felt I NEEDED one, but there have been a few times it would have made life a little easier. As far as bucket size goes, these machines will come with a "standard" bucket, when I say a larger/wider one, I mean 1.5x whatever standard is - standard will vary with the size and power of the machine.

Stuff about the Kubota I don't like? Sometimes I feel like the U17 doesn't have the weight, reach, or power to do what I want to do in a straight forward manner, and it requires some lateral thinking and ingenuity to deal with a situation it lacks outright power or reach for. That said, I feel like anything larger than the U17 would be less than ideal for a lot of what I do. There are plenty of people who don't believe that technical trail can be built with an excavator. I invite those people to ride my trails. At the same time, if you had more space, and were building trails with wider corridors, more jumps ....a larger machine would be fine. But I still like my high speed (rocky, twisty) tunnels through the woods. Too big a machine, and you lose the tunnel effect.

As far as grubbing up trees, yes, the U17 should be able to deal with a tree the size of what you're talking about - if you use the right technique. Cut it down, and leave the stump between waist and chest high - this will give you some leverage - you can push on it some with the boom as you dig at the roots. You won't just pop those things out of the ground, but you can dig them out. If memory serves, there's actually a really good walk through on youtube about grubbing stumps with a mini-ex. Just remember - never hook the whole works over the far side of the stump and try to just dig it out by pulling back towards you. If that stump pops free, it can be thrown into your lap, and depending on how big the stump is, you may or may not live through that.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Zero swing is nice.

Look at the width and weights. If not too steep or tight a heavier machine will have lots more pushing, lifting and packing power. Our ski club has a fixed with John Deere 27D and while a bit big is is working on side slopes and it works fast compared to experiences with smaller machines. We'll use the 6000 lb machine for XC ski trails and have used it for jump construction so we have reasons for what some might call big for MTB trail making.

Right now I'm looking at rental options in your state and Fabco has a 2200 lb machine. Most rental places small unit is 3500 lb. This little guy use is for areas VERY steep, and preserving hardwood trees.

FYI: Even when you have zero swing in back remember how much you still have swinging in front!

For existing old school trail fix up you might want a smaller (can get narrow) machine.

I can't really say what's right for you. Our trail projects have had small and big ones both. They all have their purpose. If anything stands out to me it's a few arm chair directors and know it all types questioned our buying a fixed width machine. For any limitations, it's also doing a lot more work a lot faster than smaller machines.

Here's what you really want:


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## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

Disclaimer: I currently own 2x Kubota U17-3 and 1x U35-4 mini-excavator. Worked extensively with Deere, Bobcat, Takeuchi and Caterpillar in that range of size and type of equipment. 

We went with the Kubota mostly for service, resale value and low maintenance. It's slightly less powerful than the Deere 17D we used to have. The Kubota have a better balance and COG I believe. Hydrolic is good but not as smooth as Deere. We use custom-made, 18" wide, extra deep bucket. I also have 30" ditching bucket when we need to move a LOT of loose dirt quickly, loading a transporter as example. 

Get an hydrolic thumb (clamp) on your machine. You'll save a ton a time!

For mountain bike trailbuilding, I would only recommend a zero-swing machine with a canopy (not the enclosed cab). Traditionnal tailswing offer more counterweight, but if it's really an issue, add another weight at the back of the machine and it makes a huge difference. Being able to fully rotate close to trees and in really steep benchcut will sometime save you a lot of troubles.

We also build bike park. I have a Helac tilt head on our U35 and love it. We use it only in clean dirt as it reduce the breakout force considerably. Price-wise, the Helac tilt (4K USD) was more in my budget than the Engcon rototilt (20K USD)... Damn exchange rate :/


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## snowkraft (Apr 12, 2015)

Great information!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It looks like I will steer towards Kubota, as it seems that it is a popular machine and the Kubota store manager is an avid mountain biker.



HypNoTic said:


> Disclaimer: I currently own 2x Kubota U17-3 and 1x U35-4 mini-excavator. Worked extensively with Deere, Bobcat, Takeuchi and Caterpillar in that range of size and type of equipment.
> 
> We went with the Kubota mostly for service, resale value and low maintenance. It's slightly less powerful than the Deere 17D we used to have. The Kubota have a better balance and COG I believe. Hydrolic is good but not as smooth as Deere. We use custom-made, 18" wide, extra deep bucket. I also have 30" ditching bucket when we need to move a LOT of loose dirt quickly, loading a transporter as example.
> 
> ...


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## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

My brother has a dirt work company, with several machines, and has had several excavators etc. He says really good things about Volvo, apparently they are very fuel efficient (compared to everything else), not prone to breakage either.


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## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

One thing to remember is that in the mini range (8 tons and under), most brands are built by another company. John Deere are rebranded Hitachi. Cat used to be rebranded Wacker-Neuson. Yanmar also manufacture for other. 

Kubota, Volvo and Takeuchi seems to be the exception to this rule.


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## snowkraft (Apr 12, 2015)

Volvo is the first machine I started researching, as I read good things about it on a European blog and also is used (at least pictured in use on one of their jobs) by one of the leading US trail design firms. Volvo seeeeeeems to have a plusher interior, (a good suspension seat- Kubota has suspension seat also- is important to me, as I permanently injured my back on a regular skidsteer seat when I was a youngster ripping thru the woods in high speed when constructing my XC ski trails- DUMB!!) as far as seat and a few other features. The EC20 model is still a possibility. I have yet to look at either Volvo or Kubota in person, as I have been in mad dash mode to get trail design done and trail roughed in before leaves pop. That will happen next week. Any more info on Volvo would be appreciated, either bad or good.



jimPacNW said:


> My brother has a dirt work company, with several machines, and has had several excavators etc. He says really good things about Volvo, apparently they are very fuel efficient (compared to everything else), not prone to breakage either.


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## motomike (Feb 4, 2005)

snowkraft said:


> Volvo is the first machine I started researching, as I read good things about it on a European blog and also is used (at least pictured in use on one of their jobs) by one of the leading US trail design firms. Volvo seeeeeeems to have a plusher interior, (a good suspension seat- Kubota has suspension seat also- is important to me, as I permanently injured my back on a regular skidsteer seat when I was a youngster ripping thru the woods in high speed when constructing my XC ski trails- DUMB!!) as far as seat and a few other features. The EC20 model is still a possibility. I have yet to look at either Volvo or Kubota in person, as I have been in mad dash mode to get trail design done and trail roughed in before leaves pop. That will happen next week. Any more info on Volvo would be appreciated, either bad or good.


The EC20 is exceptionally smooth compared to a Kubota U17. The extra "junk in the trunk" really helps keep it stabilized. You definitely get used to how the tail of a machine swings, whether it is zero swing or not, so I wouldn't worry about that.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

motomike said:


> The EC20 is exceptionally smooth compared to a Kubota U17. The extra "junk in the trunk" really helps keep it stabilized. You definitely get used to how the tail of a machine swings, whether it is zero swing or not, so I wouldn't worry about that.


It's thoughts like this - how stable something is vs something else, and getting used to how much space something takes up that makes life difficult sometimes. From a personal point of view, I'm looking at buying a mini-ex for ...personal ventures - I could make many times more money as a trail building contractor than I do working for the city. I've often wished the U17 had a little more grunt, but then again, I really like the size, but I've also learned tricks to make trail cut with a wider machine narrower than it first appears it's going to have to be. The real issue here is, I'm not sure I would ever truly be comfortable making a choice on a machine without taking it into the woods and cutting a couple hundred feet of trail with it.


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## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

Cotharyus said:


> ...but I've also learned tricks to make trail cut with a wider machine narrower than it first appears it's going to have to be. The real issue here is, I'm not sure I would ever truly be comfortable making a choice on a machine without taking it into the woods and cutting a couple hundred feet of trail with it.


I've built a lot of narrow singletrack with a U35 by having the machine tracks outside the trail thread, keeping dirt between the tracks and having the blade on float mode behind me. Pretty effective way to raise the thread on very gently slopes.

I did also cut a 12-16in wide singletrack on good slope (35%) by cutting a 3/4 bench, knocking down the backslope and discarding the loose material down slope. Went fast, but with much more soil disturbance than a smaller machine.

My advice. Smaller is usually more effective for trails. Unless you talk XC ski trails that need to be groomed.


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## snowkraft (Apr 12, 2015)

I started out renting an excavator, which I would recommend to anybody before buying. The first one I had was a John Deere, Kubota u17 comparable, which I liked. I ventured to steeper slopes and proceeded to tip it over. I know nothing about engines, started it soon after righting and, well, it is no longer in the rental fleet. Good thing I had insurance. 

Replaced with a similar size Bobcat which I did not like as much. Part of that was due to one of the tracks continuously falling off. This had a cab, which I did not like, broke a small window, and did not run over any hornets nests during that time, so really of no benefit. The cab limited visibility and fogging at times was an issue. I would not recommend a cab. 

Track coming off of the Bobcat was not desirable, and replaced with another John Deere, which is what I am currently using. Decided recently that buying makes more sense, and am in the process of ordering a Kubota U17. The U17 was recommended by an IMBA rep who was here for a week, and also I know the store manager. I would have liked to have seen the Volvo, but the Kubota is a no-brainer. 

The IMBA rep recommended that I get a custom made thumb by Grindstone Forge, which I believe is in Hayward, WI. He said a pro he knows recommends it and apparently it works better than others. 

I am also renting a Canycom SC75 tracked dumper which only had 10 hours. This works quite well, and rated at 1600 lbs. Wish it held just a bit more, but suppose that would come at a price of maneuverability. It holds more than you would at first think. Again, decided owning would be a better move so am now in the process of buying. (This also was recommended by IMBA.) This has a platform which is OK when loaded, but when empty is jarring on my back, and I fold it up and walk.


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## Wildfire (Feb 4, 2004)

snowkraft said:


> I started out renting an excavator, which I would recommend to anybody before buying. The first one I had was a John Deere, Kubota u17 comparable, which I liked. I ventured to steeper slopes and proceeded to tip it over. I know nothing about engines, started it soon after righting and, well, it is no longer in the rental fleet. Good thing I had insurance.
> 
> Replaced with a similar size Bobcat which I did not like as much. Part of that was due to one of the tracks continuously falling off. This had a cab, which I did not like, broke a small window, and did not run over any hornets nests during that time, so really of no benefit. The cab limited visibility and fogging at times was an issue. I would not recommend a cab.
> 
> ...


Yikes. Sounds like you are getting quite the crash course on excavator operation. Glad you are okay. Excavators take a long time to become truly proficient. In my opinion it takes at least 800 to 1,000 hours or more of operating time before the muscle memory gets developed enough to not have to think about every move and to learn the little tricks that will get you safely through dicey situations. They are amazing machines but it's easy to get yourself into trouble and when things go bad, it happens fast, as you found out. Chalk it up to a learning experience.

Having run various sizes of excavators, I can tell you that the smaller the excavator, the less stable they are and the trickier they are to operate. I've run a U17 for a few weeks (I own a K008-3) and they are a good machine. The biggest downside to thumbs is that they add extra weight and make the machine tippier, especially when you have a full load of dirt in the bucket. It's more pronounced on zero tail swing models as they have a higher center of gravity than a conventional swing rig. Not a huge deal once you get used to it, but something to keep in mind.

Anyway, have fun and get some trail built. Keep the rubber side down.


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

There are a lot of threads on min-excavators in this forum and as a recent U-17 owner I have tried to read them all. I thought it might be helpful to compile a list in one place, so here it is.

http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/excavator-dos-donts-579470.html 
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/looking-mini-excavator-advice-222372.html 
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/excavator-one-501472.html 
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/mini-ex-2-000-lb-class-4-000-lb-class-842368.html 
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/mini-x-steep-side-slopes-613361.html 
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/advice-machine-built-trails-817771.html 
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/advice-opinions-excavators-907915.html 
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-buildi...lt-trail-advantages-disadvantages-617631.html 
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/excavator-yearly-maintenance-cost-850359.html 
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/kobelco-micro-excavator-695735.html 
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/mechanized-trail-building-advice-765618.html 
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/mechanized-trail-machines-trail-dozer-168799.html 
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/trail-building-jobs-834908.html 
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/what-piece-machinery-try-out-653343.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-buildi...dway-trails-built-sweco-out-there-413220.html


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