# Who created the sloping top tube?



## top_ring (Feb 9, 2004)

I've heard several stories... is there one definitive answer?


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

I've read Joe Murray, formerly of Kona, then of Voodoo. Who knows. By now it's another thing Gary Fisher will take credit for anyway.


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

Charlie Cunningham


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## holden (Jul 27, 2004)

Short people.


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

holden said:


> Short people.


Randy Newman


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## djmuff (Sep 8, 2004)

I don't know who created the "slopping" top tube, but I do know who created the sloppy joe.

Manwich.  

But for sloping top tubes, I've heard Joe Murray. But some of those Cunninghams look like the have sloping top tubes too.


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## Williwoods (May 3, 2004)

1978 SE Om Flyer had Sloping TT. Im sure there is a french or Italian maybe even dutch company from the early century that had it.


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## datasurfer (Nov 24, 2006)

Taken from a bikeradar.com interview with Joe Murray:

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/interview-dirt-legend-joe-murray--13984

The radically sloping top tube is one of the simplest yet most effective innovations to the MTB frame. How did the idea evolve?

The first "Safety" bikes from the turn of the twentieth century had them. I think that when mountain bikes first came on the scene in the 1980s the horizontal top tube was a hold over from road bikes. Making it sloping was done by a few early builders. I think when I was at Kona we were the first to do it on a production bike level.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Charlie did it first. Klein and Cannondale (coincidence?) did it first on a production level. Joe's Konas came after.


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## bikerboy (Jan 13, 2004)

Kona loves to think they created the sloping top tube much like Subaru likes to think they invented the "sport utility wagon" with their Outback model. The AMC Eagle was quite a few years ahead of the Subaru. That is a whole other debate though.


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

76 R&r


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

> The AMC Eagle was quite a few years ahead of the Subaru


Too funny! I've been telling people that for years!

I had one of those ugly ducklings, fake-woody wagon, but never got stuck in the New England snow or mud!

Me, Monster FAT, Eagle Woody,Pink Bell Lid, some race in Vermont.

Can anyone guess the bike on top of the car?


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

datasurfer said:


> I think that when mountain bikes first came on the scene in the 1980s the horizontal top tube was a hold over from road bikes. Making it sloping was done by a few early builders.


Early MTBs had horizontal top tubes, because there were no seat posts long enough to allow for a sloping design (unless it was sloping upwards). Road seat posts are short, and that's what was available off the shelf.

Charlie Cunningham made many of the components on his bike (instead of buying them from other manufacturers) so he was able to make sloping top tubes in the early 80's.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Who made the first road bikes with sloping top tubes?

I know that Bontrager was really early, and Salsa was there too. Anyone else?


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

*I submit....*

...the John Olsen designed "Raven" circa '83-84. Was produced commercially by Mercer Island Cycles in Seattle. :thumbsup:


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

I think one of the last of the 3-4 times we've had this discussion, a couple pics were posted of Charlie C from 1978 or 79 on his road bike and mtb, both with sloping tt's.


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## ckevlar (Feb 9, 2005)

I was the first. Your welcome.


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## nipsey (Apr 17, 2008)

Williwoods said:


> Im sure there is a french or Italian maybe even dutch company from the early century that had it.


You win. Incorporating an existing design element, even an obscure one, doesn't amount to creating it. There's not much that hadn't already been done and done again by the early 1900s.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

nipsey said:


> You win. Incorporating an existing design element, even an obscure one, doesn't amount to creating it. There's not much that hadn't already been done and done again by the early 1900s.


I agree with you mostly, but the bikes of the 70s and 80s had horizontal top tubes and mountain bikes didnt exist in the early 1900s. I wouldnt say a mountain bike builder was the creator, but one of them was the first to incorporate it...


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Charlie's bike from the 70s


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## 82Sidewinder (Jun 28, 2006)

Fillet-brazed said:


> mountain bikes didnt exist in the early 1900s..


Don't tell that to these guys. They may not meet Berto's definition of a mountain bike, but they are bikes and they are in the mountains.

http://www.highonadventure.com/Hoa97aug/Montana/montana.htm


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## cegrover (Oct 17, 2004)

KDXdog said:


> Can anyone guess the bike on top of the car?


Klein Top Gun? Very hard to tell... If just blue and white, maybe one of them fancy Italian (pronounced Eye-Talian) ones like First Flight's selling?


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

cegrover said:


> Klein Top Gun? Very hard to tell... If just blue and white, maybe one of them fancy Italian (pronounced Eye-Talian) ones like First Flight's selling?


89 Cannondale sm 600.(I think) Sloping tt, a very "ugly" bike in my opinion. Proportions were "off", big down tube, skinny steel fork, giant rear brake cable hanger, but plastic guides on tt for full length cable. Rear u-brake, I think. Came with ultra skinny cheapo tires, barely a knob on them.

I "fixed" a bunch of things on it for a friend, slapped on Fisher BIG old Fattrack(sp?) tires, he loved it.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

82Sidewinder said:


> Don't tell that to these guys. They may not meet Berto's definition of a mountain bike, but they are bikes and they are in the mountains.
> 
> http://www.highonadventure.com/Hoa97aug/Montana/montana.htm


Seatposts didn't exist then.


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## Williwoods (May 3, 2004)

I think the important thing to consider is this question in what context.............since this is MTBR I presume were talking about off road bicycles designed specifically for the purpose with a sloping top tube. Sloping Top tubes were pretty popular for JR Bmx bikes even earlier than 1978, but that doesnt really count as that was designed for riders that couldnt ride the bike without it. But as a feature that was purposely designed in a frame that could have been built with a horizontal tt instead? I Guess Cunningham and SE (om flyer) are tied. The Om Flyer was built in early 1978 and the Cunningham was also 1978?

But honestly this is a silly discussion. Because as specified there isnt really anything completely original in 1978 about a tube sloping rearward on a bicycle frame. Its interesting but silly. I find much more compelling a discussion about who was the first to run alloy 26" rims or any number of other innovations.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Williwoods said:


> I find much more compelling a discussion about who was the first to run alloy 26" rims or any number of other innovations.


Would that still wind up being a BMX or some kind of beach cruiser? Weren't the first 26" alloys Ukais or something for BMX cruisers?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

IF52 said:


> Would that still wind up being a BMX or some kind of beach cruiser? Weren't the first 26" alloys Ukais or something for BMX cruisers?


How about the first to used aluminum 650B rims when the others were using 26" steel hoops? I think that was Tom Ritchey. Once 26" aluminum rims came out the much lighter 650B bikes didnt matter any more...


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## top_ring (Feb 9, 2004)

It looks like Cunningham gets the nod for this frame distinction, as far as MTB's are concerned. I don't really know why Kona (Joe Murray) gets mentioned at all for this frame attribute. Murray didn't build frames, he designed them. The Kona happened to be a copy of the Brodie in it's early days when Kona, Brodie, and Merlin were associated with TBG - the Bicycle Group; the distributor at the time.

If anyone should get honorable mention for the sloping TT, it should be Paul Brodie.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> How about the first to used aluminum 650B rims when the others were using 26" steel hoops? I think that was Tom Ritchey. Once 26" aluminum rims came out the much lighter 650B bikes didnt matter any more...


Probably among others in the group of builders out there at the time.


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

*1976 R&r*

1976 R&r


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)

Someone with big plums must have had an influence...


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## Williwoods (May 3, 2004)

right on scotty thanks for the pic. 

just fyi guys I think its so silly to chalk it up to anyone, cunningham included. there are lots of examples of earlier uses of this. its just a silly concept in the first place. No one invents the angle of a tube relative to the ground.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Williwoods said:


> right on scotty thanks for the pic.
> 
> just fyi guys I think its so silly to chalk it up to anyone, cunningham included. there are lots of examples of earlier uses of this. its just a silly concept in the first place. No one invents the angle of a tube relative to the ground.


That sounds right, but really what we are talking about is who applied the idea of a sloping top tube to the mountain bike. Sure there were sloping top tubes and there were bikes that people rode of road, but in the 70s there was the development of a "new" kind of bike. It wasn't new in that it did things that hadn't been done before but rather it was new in the way it brought together many cycling ideas and technologies and articulated an application that radically differed from what had become the status quo. Even though the idea of the mountain bike was revolutionary, the scene was, technologically speaking, extremely conservative. Watching Klunkerz will convince you of how cautious the design moves were. With this background, the sloping top tube was radical and faced considerable push back.


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

I was a little baffled as to why BMX was never mentioned in Klunkerz. Clearly the second generation mountain bikes were loaded with bmx parts; tube forks, alloy rims, bmx bars etc.


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

The Dursley-Pedersen design is from 1893.

Brodies, Rocky Blizzards/Thunderbolts may not have been first, but IMHO they did it best.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

ScottyMTB said:


> I was a little baffled as to why BMX was never mentioned in Klunkerz. Clearly the second generation mountain bikes were loaded with bmx parts; tube forks, alloy rims, bmx bars etc.


Billy would have a better answer, but here's mine.

Mountain Bikes were origianlly created by two groups of people: those with a roadie background, and those with a BMX-background. The BMXer's had 26" cruisers as a starting point, and roadies knew road and CX bikes. In the early days, it was obvious from looking at a bike and it's components where the manufacturers backgrounds came from.

Klunkerz is about a particular group of people that started making mountain bikes in Marin. The guys in Marin were roadies who knew road bikes and applied that knowledge to modifying cruiser bikes. Their bike desgins and component choices showed this influence. The early bikes form Breeze, Ritchey, Fisher/Kelly, Potts, etc., all show the road bike influence.

IMO, the reason why BMXers where not mentioned in the movie, is that BMX didn't play a significant role in the development of the bikes that came out of Marin County in the 1970's and early 1980's. Had the movie been based in another locale, the BMX scene might have played a much larger influence in that movie.


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## GonaSovereign (Sep 20, 2004)

I'm sure the "inventor" of the sloping top tube died of old age a century ago. Thank you, whoever you were.

If the question was _"who invented the BC-style steeply sloped top tube with extended seat tube and seatpost binder slot usually facing forward"_ the answer would be Paul Brodie, when he worked for Rocky Mountain.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

GonaSovereign said:


> I'm sure the "inventor" of the sloping top tube died of old age a century ago. Thank you, whoever you were.
> 
> If the question was _"who invented the BC-style steeply sloped top tube with extended seat tube and seatpost binder slot usually facing forward"_ the answer would be Paul Brodie, when he worked for Rocky Mountain.


IMO you lose a big part of the advantage by not also lowering the seatstays to match the lowered top tube... Aesthetically I think it looks nicer too. Nothing against the nice Canadian frames.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> IMO you lose a big part of the advantage by not also lowering the seatstays to match the lowered top tube... Aesthetically I think it looks nicer too. Nothing against the nice Canadian frames.


The original BC design does have lowered seatstays. It wasn't until the later Rockies (early 90s?) that the seatstays came back up. I think that design didn't look nearly as good.


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

laffeaux said:


> IMO, the reason why BMXers where not mentioned in the movie, is that BMX didn't play a significant role in the development of the bikes that came out of Marin County in the 1970's and early 1980's. Had the movie been based in another locale, the BMX scene might have played a much larger influence in that movie.


Ageed, such as in SoCal.


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

ScottyMTB said:


> 1976 R&r


I had one of those back then. One of the first things to go was that extended seat tube. You had to make sure you ran a really long fluted seat post or it was snap city. They would also snap where the twin tt was welded to the square tube at the head tube. Great picture.


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## timbercomp (Jan 16, 2004)

you are all wrong...believe it or not I have insider information that like everything else that was invented...Chris Chance invented the slopping TT


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## ATBScott (Jun 4, 2006)

I'd have to agree with the "Charlie Cunningham" argument - I remember the first time I saw a Cunningham back around 1979 and thought it was pretty funny looking - but then got a Schwinn High Sierra a few years later and it had a sloping top tube - but not as much slope as the Cunningham. As far as real "Production Bikes" go, I'd have to say Schwinn, Klein and C'Dale were all there pretty early. Cunninghams were pretty much all built that way, but those weren't really PRODUCTION bikes. Sure be cool to have one in the collection...


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## Retro MB (Oct 13, 2007)

Don't forget about the VVA (Victor Vincente of America) Topanga. It used a road bike seat post and little tires, so it needed a sloping top tube. However, it sloped from the seat down to the head tube. That was one funny looking bike. The next model - the VVA 26 Semi-Custom - used a horizontal top tube.


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## scooterendo (Jan 30, 2004)

*+1 for Cunningham*

"IMO, the reason why BMXers where not mentioned in the movie, is that BMX didn't play a significant role in the development of the bikes that came out of Marin County in the 1970's and early 1980's. Had the movie been based in another locale, the BMX scene might have played a much larger influence in that movie."

Hey Laffeaux,

You're pretty much right on. I was born in Orange County in SoCal and rode my LittleJohn w/MotoMags at Saddleback Racetrack and at just about every suburban-sprawl construction site in the area (there were lots of them in the early '70s). I could have got WAY into that, but John Swarr and Mark Eaton had just done Joe Kid on a Stingray. Check it out if you haven't seen it. They had all my heroes in that movie, I mean EVERYBODY, so I had to do something different.

I moved to Marin in '77 and I fell in love with the place, so I wanted that locale to be a big part of the movie, too. Character-driven, if you will. Plus, I didn't have a ton of material to work with. You gotta remember that BMX was BIG in the early '70s and there was lots of media coverage. The first BMX mags came out in, like, '73, so vintage photos and footage were plentiful. It would be almost 15 years before the first mountain bike magazines came along, 'cept for CK's Fat Tire Flyer of course:thumbsup: .

So obviously, I loved BMX, but they guys I was looking at for KLUNKERZ had no connection to that world. They were roadies, CX'ers, and thrill-seekers. During my research I looked into the history of the bicycle itself, the BMX connections, and, of course, VVA and his 20" Topanga, which was certainly significant. It was such a HUGE subject to tackle that it required paring things down to get some focus. It was during this phase of the research that the story began to revealed itself. If I got too involved in the 'nuts and bolts' of the bike's evolution it would take me too far astray from what I wanted to concentrate on, the Marin guys themselves and the fun they had in the beginning. They are all so fascinating, even outside of cycling, that I wanted to give the audience a glimpse of them as the characters that they truly are.

I shot near 100 hours of footage, so I've got folks talking about Charlie Cunningham's sloping downtube and just about everything else to do with a mountain bike, but nobody really mentions BMX except for rim and tire development. That was a very big deal because you could now save 6 pounds or so, and you could use rim brakes so that saved weight too, and you had real tires that were lighter and worked well in off-road conditions. I still can't believe that those guys rode down Mt. Tam on those rusting hulks with Carlisle tires and coaster brakes. Everybody should try that once, just to realize how far we've come.

Ride on!


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

*Really?*



laffeaux said:


> Billy would have a better answer, but here's mine.
> 
> Mountain Bikes were origianlly created by two groups of people: those with a roadie background, and those with a BMX-background. The BMXer's had 26" cruisers as a starting point, and roadies knew road and CX bikes. In the early days, it was obvious from looking at a bike and it's components where the manufacturers backgrounds came from.
> 
> ...


Wow, really? Take all the CBR forks, hubs, bmx bars, 2.125 alloy rims off and you have the pioneers of mountainbiking pushing partial bikes down repack. I can think of a couple of examples offhand of Marin guys using bmx parts, even as I sip my second can of fat tire (yeah, that's right, comes in a can now). I am really thinking of the second generation, where the blade forks and truss rods were ditched for tube forks, definately a bmx invention. As soon as they were available, tuf necks were all over marin bikes. Go to Alan Bonds website and look at his "faithful replicas". Alloy bmx stem, CBR forks, diacompe brake levers. heck I would even bet that the first bottom bracket 3 piece conversion kit was developed by a bmxer.


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

One more little tidbit I read today ironically. John Tomac rode an SE racing OM flyer, and the first full suspension mountain bike was an SE shocker.


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## scooterendo (Jan 30, 2004)

ScottyMTB said:


> Wow, really? Take all the CBR forks, hubs, bmx bars, 2.125 alloy rims off and you have the pioneers of mountainbiking pushing partial bikes down repack. I can think of a couple of examples offhand of Marin guys using bmx parts, even as I sip my second can of fat tire (yeah, that's right, comes in a can now). I am really thinking of the second generation, where the blade forks and truss rods were ditched for tube forks, definately a bmx invention. As soon as they were available, tuf necks were all over marin bikes. Go to Alan Bonds website and look at his "faithful replicas". Alloy bmx stem, CBR forks, diacompe brake levers. heck I would even bet that the first bottom bracket 3 piece conversion kit was developed by a bmxer.


For sure. No doubt the the BMX stuff was pushing things along heavily (lightly?) in Marin by '78. Could they have adapted sooner...maybe. The BMX stuff was light years ahead dumpster-diving pre-war, motorcycle, road hybrid stuff. And blingy to boot. My Bond's-built has a CBR-style fork and Alloys. Most of his bikes use(d) Stingray-style stems, I believe. I'm pretty sure the Koski's Pro-Cruiser utilized BMX stuff on their early bikes early on. Those BMX guys were on it. Good question about the BB. I'd love to know who came up with that conversion. You gotta admit, Cunningham was the innovation man, since he was doing aluminum sloping downtube frames and made most of his own bits.


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

*Cunningham*



scooterendo said:


> For sure. No doubt the the BMX stuff was pushing things along heavily (lightly?) in Marin by '78. Could they have adapted sooner...maybe. The BMX stuff was light years ahead dumpster-diving pre-war, motorcycle, road hybrid stuff. And blingy to boot. My Bond's-built has a CBR-style fork and Alloys. Most of his bikes use(d) Stingray-style stems, I believe. I'm pretty sure the Koski's Pro-Cruiser utilized BMX stuff on their early bikes early on. Those BMX guys were on it. Good question about the BB. I'd love to know who came up with that conversion. You gotta admit, Cunningham was the innovation man, since he was doing aluminum sloping downtube frames and made most of his own bits.


Yeah he was definately blazing trails with that aluminum mtb frame and laid back (bent back) seatpost.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

ScottyMTB said:


> Wow, really? Take all the CBR forks, hubs, bmx bars, 2.125 alloy rims off and you have the pioneers of mountainbiking pushing partial bikes down repack. I can think of a couple of examples offhand of Marin guys using bmx parts, even as I sip my second can of fat tire (yeah, that's right, comes in a can now). I am really thinking of the second generation, where the blade forks and truss rods were ditched for tube forks, definately a bmx invention. As soon as they were available, tuf necks were all over marin bikes. Go to Alan Bonds website and look at his "faithful replicas". Alloy bmx stem, CBR forks, diacompe brake levers. heck I would even bet that the first bottom bracket 3 piece conversion kit was developed by a bmxer.


I agree with most all of this, but I've always noticed they used motorcycle bars and brake levers as opposed to the BMX stuff. Saw a number of road stems used too.

To put it into more modern tems, Charlie C was a bit more of the all mountain/XC guy (if you will) as opposed to the DH type that was the repack crowd. Charlie went/goes fast uphill and down.


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## campisi (Dec 20, 2004)

Al Gore


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

campisi said:


> Al Gore


Oh that was nice.


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## anthonyinhove (Nov 3, 2007)

top_ring said:


> It looks like Cunningham gets the nod for this frame distinction, as far as MTB's are concerned. I don't really know why Kona (Joe Murray) gets mentioned at all for this frame attribute. Murray didn't build frames, he designed them. The Kona happened to be a copy of the Brodie in it's early days when Kona, Brodie, and Merlin were associated with TBG - the Bicycle Group; the distributor at the time.
> 
> If anyone should get honorable mention for the sloping TT, it should be Paul Brodie.


I agree, but maybe the real question you're getting at is who was first to hype the sloping top tube?

Some slope in the tt is just the natural way to build a mountain bike and by the late 80s most mtbs had sloping top tubes in the smallest size, ranging to flatter top tubes in the biggest size, so it's hard to say that any one individual can lay claim to creating or inventing it. But I think Kona were the first to hype it up and make out they'd in some sense developed it ahead of others which gave them an advantage over competitors. All part of establishing themselves as a brand I guess, but that doesn't mean that it was a justifiable claim.

e.g., this from the 1991 Kona catalogue "Joe Murray didn't invent the sloping top tube. The design has been around for over 100 years. But he adapted and refined and tested and raced the design with so much success that almost every bicycle company in the world offers one or more sloping top tube models in their line." So moving from a sober disclaimer subtly to try to make out that other brands were inspired by Kona - even though Kona didn't exist when others started with sloping tts!

But the interesting thing about that catalogue was that it didn't mention Paul Brodie. In 1990 they did a joint Kona/Brodie brochure with a cover photo of Murray on a Brodie Catalyst. The blurb for the Catalyst said "this is the frameset that was race proven by TBG pro team riders Joe Murray and Bruce Spicer during 1989". The sloping top tube blurb said "Joe Murray and the Kona/TBG racing team have been using sloping top tube frame designs on their team racing machines for the last three years. It's a race proven design." And elsewhere, of Joe Murray "working closely with Paul Brodie, Merlin Metalworks and other associates of TBG, he tests the prototypes and refines the final designs before they are ready.

But maybe the most illuminating version of the Gospel of Saints Dan and Jake is in what I believe to be the first Kona catalogue [see attached (not on Konaretro), and if anybody knows better, please tell] "Coordination between designer, frame builder and test riders is essential. Such is the method of the Kona design team, led by Joe Murray, the most experienced racer in the USA, and using Paul Brodie custom bikes, they have over the several seasons of racing, developed the Kona frame." While of course Dan and Jake got on with all the tedious chores that nobody else wanted to do. Like owning the company and pocketing the profits.

So pretty clearly the sloping top tube Kona was a sloping top tube Brodie developed with inputs from Joe Murray. Then when they split with Brodie, they bigged up Murray's role even more and never mentioned Brodie again. Then they split with Murray a few years later, and never mentioned him again either.

So looks like Kona invented nothing, but were champions of hype. But I do like their steel hardtails, and I have to say it's partly because they have a more sloping top tube than other brands. Thanks Paul.


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## SicBith (Jul 24, 2006)

It was Chris Chance. Don't listen to the west coast crowd. Chance designed and patented the sloping top tube in 81'. After too many years dealing with the whole west coast is better than the east coast thing he closed up shop and used the licensing dollars earned from all those NorCal clones to open up Carlos -n- Charlies restaurant and bars all over Mexico. Notice how how Charlies is behind Carlos (Chris) hmmmm.....


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

A Broeker 1890....http://bicycledesign.blogspot.com/2006/02/old-bike-patents.html


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## SicBith (Jul 24, 2006)

jeffscott said:


> A Broeker 1890....http://bicycledesign.blogspot.com/2006/02/old-bike-patents.html


Nope... Nope.... My great grandfather knew this guy. He passed down stories about him and his adventures in the Chicago area opium dens. The only sloping top tube he patented was his Johnson outboard.
It was Chris Chance in 1981. Don't fight the truth it only makes you look negative in the eyes of your peers.


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