# How are you using a heart rate for training?



## pulser (Dec 6, 2004)

I decided to get a little bit controlled with training and got a Mio Link heart rate band. It does ANT+ and Bluetooth. So it can talk to my Garmin and my iPhone at the same time. Right now I am only using it with the Garmin and when I'm on the road. I try to keep my heart rate in the 60 to 70% of max. Its a good reminder to slow down its only December. I just don't know how useful it will be on the mountain bike other then recording dada off-road. Lets face it when I'm climbing a fire road at 17 or 18% and I'm maxed out in my easy gear my heart rate is my heart rate not much I can do other then get off and walk. How are you guys using heart rate info when your mountain biking?


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## scottz123 (Jun 16, 2012)

First, if I read correctly, I would not use max HR for setting zones. I would do a test like this Joe Friel's Blog: A Quick Guide to Setting Zones

When I am mtb'ing I am using Perceived Effort as a gauge while wearing HR monitor - 90% of time when I am riding off-road I am doing race pace efforts (I try to, but intesity always higher in real race - HR recovers during training, while during race, it stays redlined)

For example: 1 hour race or shorter (CX or mtb TT) I just go for it without looking at monitor and my HR avg's/stays in low 190's. On the other hand 2hr CC race and I will try to pace myself a little bit better and NOT let my HR into 190's

How many hours a week are you riding/training?


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## MegaMustang (Sep 12, 2009)

scottz123 said:


> First, if I read correctly, I would not use max HR for setting zones. I would do a test like this Joe Friel's Blog: A Quick Guide to Setting Zones


...and re-set your zones periodically... both up and down. At a minimum, I think you should be checking/re-setting once very three months.

Enjoy,
_Matt


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## scottz123 (Jun 16, 2012)

+1 Matt is correct - though I never bother to retest, I just go.

"So as you become more fit in the lead-up to your race you might expect to see lower heart rates at the high end. The reverse of this is also true.As fitness declines MHR increases. The review reported 3% to 7% shifts with training and detraining. So, for example, someone with a MHR of 200 at the start of the Base period may expect to see their MHR decline to 186 to 194 by the time of their first race." Joe Friel - Max Heart Rate and Fitness


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

one thing the HR is good for me on my mtb is, on those long climbs, I can concentrate on my breathing and see how this affects my hr at the same speed. Mentally I like to see my recovery times after a hard effort on the trail.


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## pulser (Dec 6, 2004)

scottz123 said:


> First, if I read correctly, I would not use max HR for setting zones. I would do a test like this Joe Friel's Blog: A Quick Guide to Setting Zones
> 
> When I am mtb'ing I am using Perceived Effort as a gauge while wearing HR monitor - 90% of time when I am riding off-road I am doing race pace efforts (I try to, but intesity always higher in real race - HR recovers during training, while during race, it stays redlined)
> 
> ...


Not enough. I'm trying to come back after taking 2 years off of racing. In the last year i mostly just road on the weekends if the weather was nice. Right now I'm maybe 4 to 6 hours a week. I work a really physical job so allot of the time the last thing I want to do is get on the bike when I get home.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I use zones, per Friel.

I don't actually use the feedback much, though. Only for structured workouts. Off-road, I use PE. The terrain changes mean my heart rate can be pretty spiky.


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## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

pulser said:


> I decided to get a little bit controlled with training and got a Mio Link heart rate band. It does ANT+ and Bluetooth. So it can talk to my Garmin and my iPhone at the same time. Right now I am only using it with the Garmin and when I'm on the road. I try to keep my heart rate in the 60 to 70% of max. Its a good reminder to slow down its only December. I just don't know how useful it will be on the mountain bike other then recording dada off-road. Lets face it when I'm climbing a fire road at 17 or 18% and I'm maxed out in my easy gear my heart rate is my heart rate not much I can do other then get off and walk. How are you guys using heart rate info when your mountain biking?


I started using HR this year while on the MTN Bike. Perceived effort is nice, but the mind can play interesting tricks - as well as sluff off and go to sleep where the effort is not quite as effortful as one's perception may think it is.

Wattages, HR, cadence are all tracked on the trainer for my basement off season and inclement training sessions during the continental climate season known as Winter. Outside on the bike, I don't have a power meter so it is with HR only (and perceived effort) that I follow. I know what I can do and how the HR responds, so having HR information available while on the mountain bike has been beneficial this year on training rides, and especially during races for me.

As an example, in the middle of a race following a couple of competitors I can glance down and see that we are just "riding along" and barely riding in tempo. Even though the perceived effort may tell me - or my mind that is - that everything is flying along fine, the HR tells me I can give more and off I go to raise it up to what I know I can sustain for a race. Or another example during a 50 mile race, at the open when everyone is so excited which results in all of us jumping out of the gate for the first few miles with fresh legs - I can glance down and see that my HR has jumped way too high for what I want to pace myself for that kind of distance.

Perceived effort is nice, but the HR gives me information that my mind doesn't have a say in interpreting the effort and I take the HR information, and can adjust as needed. At least that's how I have been using it this year. It took care of a lot of my past tendency to settle in behind a group of riders during a race riding at a pace that was more akin to "just riding along" as opposed to racing. The same was happening on longer training rides before this year, but now the HR information keeps me more on task. And I guess that's the biggest benefit I have noticed using it.:thumbsup:


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## mabrodis (Oct 19, 2005)

If my HR is under 170 then I mentally punch myself in the face and push harder. 

I actually don't like having my HR visible as it affect my ride too much, i.e. I'll look down, see a HR of 181 but I feel fine and could go a bit harder and would go harder until I see my HR, then feel like I should back off...and thus turn into a wuss.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

This was happening to me when racing. In time you will know where you are around.


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## Crosstown Stew (Aug 16, 2008)

pulser said:


> How are you guys using heart rate info when your mountain biking?


If you are new to structured training and racing HR can be great for learning your body and what your limits are. You should learn your zones per Friel imo and it will give you better knowledge of what the numbers actually mean, especially during training. RPE needs to be learned from feedback your body gives, not just how your feeling on a given day. HR and RPE should be used to learn your limits and thresholds at given points, ie FTP 1 min, 5 min, 20 min, 60 min, etc.

HR and RPE could tell you that climbing that 18% fire road you mention, you could hammer for "x" mins before you going anerobic and having to sit up and recover. Or how far from the finish you can attached without blowing up. The more advanced methods use power meters to determine these metrics but if you understand your body and how to use HR correctly you can apply the same principles.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

The more you use a heart rate monitor the more useful it is. 

For instance when training load is high you will probably a very sluggish heart, it is slow to react to efforts and doesn't beat very fast. For myself this is a training target, at that point I know I have loaded myself enough, and some rest is going to give some training adaptation.


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## D-Yob (Jun 20, 2005)

Although I train primarily with power, my off-road training is by HR. I know when my fitness is sharpening when my average HR and max are within 10 or less beats of each other in any given race-pace ride.

For example, over an hour and half at race pace the other day, my average HR was 155 and my max 164. I know that a) my top end output was good reflecting I came into this hard ride rested and b) my fitness was such that I was able to hammer and recover without slowing down.

And, of course, my average speed reflected I was hitting on all cylinders, too, which is the No. 1 stat to study.


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## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

I use HR quite a lot. I do a lot of trail/mountain running. Especially in winter. I use HR to estimate my training load. I have programmed my own Sporttracks plugin to mix bike powermeter training load estimates and HR based load estimates. With this approach I can be consistent in my performance chart. The older I get the more important it is that I take care not to overreach.


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## Poncharelli (Jan 13, 2005)

This time of year I MTB more often, since it's warmer for cold temps. I still ride 5/6 days a week but with lower volume. My bike commutes have been un-extended for the most part. No HR or power. Just enjoying riding. I'll only track ride time and ride how I feel, which isn't very fast right now. I have been accomplishing a couple of tempo climbing interval sessions a week though (using PE); they felt good and I had fun with it. 

After the new year is when I start getting more anal with the Power and HR and start slowly raising the volume. Right now I think is the time to mitigate fitness losses while having fun. Strength training 1 or 2 sessions a week is not a bad idea either. 

As others said, you can calculate training zones based on LTHR. The trick is getting an accurate LTHR number. And once you have it, it only seems to work well on constant grades (i.e. constant power output) or trainer. On constant grades you can calibrate your PE with HR, then use PE for your MTB rides.


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## nowlan (Apr 21, 2009)

scottz123 said:


> +1 Matt is correct - though I never bother to retest, I just go.
> 
> "So as you become more fit in the lead-up to your race you might expect to see lower heart rates at the high end. The reverse of this is also true.As fitness declines MHR increases. The review reported 3% to 7% shifts with training and detraining. So, for example, someone with a MHR of 200 at the start of the Base period may expect to see their MHR decline to 186 to 194 by the time of their first race." Joe Friel - Max Heart Rate and Fitness


Quick question on LTHR tests. I am goinf to be performing my second LTHR test using all the same mediums as the first one I did to establish my zones. I used the friel method.
After 2 months of training should Inezpect to see any increase or decrease in my LTHR?


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

nowlan said:


> After 2 months of training should Inezpect to see any increase or decrease in my LTHR?


It might stay pretty much the same. From my experience, when I am at my fittest, my LTHR seems to be a little lower. When not at peak fitness, it is usually 172 - when fit, 169. These numbers have not changed in 10 years.

But hopefully you will be faster.


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## twobigwheels (Nov 24, 2014)

I think as Friel would say "It depends"

IMO, the biggest being what are you doing for training this time of the season? Are you SST or 2X20s to push up FTHR for example.

Are you coming in equally rested as other test? What works best for me is a taper week, and the day before test a couple of efforts at or slighly above FTHR for a few minutes to wake up legs.

Are u indoors? Able to control conditions, weather?

Unless u r a new rider, do not expect much if any change in LTHR. Now LT power is another thing...


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## scottz123 (Jun 16, 2012)

+1 kevbike & twobig

LTHR will not change much


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## nowlan (Apr 21, 2009)

scottz123 said:


> +1 kevbike & twobig
> 
> LTHR will not change much


Thanks guys. Im using an indoor trainer with a HR monitor that sends data right to the bikes computer.

Last time I did I got a 178 and have based my zones off that. I guess my real question is, does higher mean Fitter? Or Vice Versa. Sounds from the above post that its lower.

And to add, last week was taper week with a few long aerobic based rides.


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## scottz123 (Jun 16, 2012)

1) If u are using trainer for testing, i would b more concerned with what your "virtual power" is rather than LTHR (KK trainer gives a power estimation, Trainer Road has info on trainers, etc). Not a true power meter, but better than nothing. Keep tire pressure consistant, fans, turns on wheel tension, etc.

I m not sure if LTHR varies with fitness (i m NOT doubting Kevbike). I m curious & will research later. I would not worry to much about it. When u get outside HR wanders around so much anyway, unless u r on the flatest terrain. 

In Kevbikes post (i m not disrespecting it), he notes a 3 bpm differnce in LTHR. With a LTHR around 170,that is less than a 2% difference. I'm not saying its not true - but could also b explained by temperature, hydration, etc

Not sure what u overall training is -pushing up FTP not easy if a few years into training. Takes dedicated SST /FTP work IMO, unless riding big hours -even then....


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## scottz123 (Jun 16, 2012)

Joe Friel - Max Heart Rate and Fitness

Key in "control f" and search LTHR . Friel has comments in Q&A @ section of article.


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## Gregg K (Jan 12, 2004)

pulser said:


> Not enough. I'm trying to come back after taking 2 years off of racing. In the last year i mostly just road on the weekends if the weather was nice. Right now I'm maybe 4 to 6 hours a week. I work a really physical job so allot of the time the last thing I want to do is get on the bike when I get home.


This just reminded me of back in the 80's when I was a roofer. I would roof all day, and then go out for either a road ride or mountain bike ride in the afternoon. Now that I think of it, I've actually ridden a few roofs.

edit- I should add that this is a great discussion. I've learned a few things. Thanks.


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## nowlan (Apr 21, 2009)

scottz123 said:


> 1) If u are using trainer for testing, i would b more concerned with what your "virtual power" is rather than LTHR (KK trainer gives a power estimation, Trainer Road has info on trainers, etc). Not a true power meter, but better than nothing. Keep tire pressure consistant, fans, turns on wheel tension, etc.
> 
> I m not sure if LTHR varies with fitness (i m NOT doubting Kevbike). I m curious & will research later. I would not worry to much about it. When u get outside HR wanders around so much anyway, unless u r on the flatest terrain.
> 
> ...


Thanks

I just re did the test aprox 2 months after the first one, and at the end of Base 1. I went to 177 from 178 using the Friel LTHR method. I litterly could not have pushed it harder it felt good.


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## nowlan (Apr 21, 2009)

twobigwheels said:


> I think as Friel would say "It depends"
> 
> IMO, the biggest being what are you doing for training this time of the season? Are you SST or 2X20s to push up FTHR for example.
> 
> ...


Right now im doing SST and Zone2 twice a week. Plus structured functional weightlifting.


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