# Gjertsen Fixture (Jig) from Austin Texas



## GAAP (Oct 5, 2008)

Contact info: [email protected]

pics:


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https://flic.kr/p/4004603596


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Is this an ad?*

If so, you need to pay the $2 classified fee. Let me know what's up here, eh?

-Walt


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## GAAP (Oct 5, 2008)

No, not an ad. No relation to the manufacturer other than I wish him the best and he is from Texas. Just thought others would find this interesting and the contact info useful.

I can still send $2. Let's make it $5 and you can buy yourself something pretty  .

where do I send the Payapl?


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## BentChainring (Jul 10, 2008)

How much is the Jig?


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## GAAP (Oct 5, 2008)

BentChainring said:


> How much is the Jig?


Contact info: [email protected]


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I saw that it was going to be $3k. You might want to wait for him to actually have someone try to build a frame with it, the max seat tube is 19.5"


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## Hubcap Cycles (Sep 6, 2009)

I wonder how easy it would be to set up. I don't see any references for fork length or bb drop. Maybe I am missing something. Would like to hear from someone who has built a couple of frames out of one.
Cheers
Hub
http://hubcapcycles.com


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*$3k?*

An Anvil Journeyman is $3500. Super easy setup, super accurate, used by hundreds of professional builders.

Saving $500 is IMO not worth it here, assuming that is the price. I'm dubious about how easy it would be to set that thing up, too. Appears to set the HT height you'd need to do a BUNCH of extra trig to determine the angle of the big HT arm, then set the HT angle itself to correct, THEN somehow measure the effective TT. PITA. Building around a fixed STA (at least it appears to be fixed) and having to move everything else around it to get what you actually want/need seems dumb to me.

Then again, maybe I don't understand what's going on.

-Walt



unterhausen said:


> I saw that it was going to be $3k. You might want to wait for him to actually have someone try to build a frame with it, the max seat tube is 19.5"


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

Walt,
I think you got it. 

I agree about the price. Of course, it probably should cost the same as an Anvil given the complexity, or else he would be under-pricing. Common problem shared by any kind of startup.


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## GAAP (Oct 5, 2008)

I don't know where you are getting your numbers or perceptions of limitations. I strongly suggest you direct your questions to [email protected]


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*The funny thing is...*

Weirdly enough, the one gaping hole in the frame fixture market remains unfilled. At the middle to high end you've got the Bringheli, HJ (if it's still being made), Journeyman, Supermaster. Cheapest of those is around $2500, I think. So too expensive for many hobby/part time builders. There is no low end, unless you count making your own fixture, which some people are ok doing. Others just want to build a *bike* and don't want to futz with a fixture.

There would be a decent market for a fixture in the ~$1000 range, I think. You could do something like the old beam-type fixtures (running everything in a u-channel beam) that James at Blacksheep used to use. They're a pain to set up, and they aren't as accurate as a high-end fixture, but for the intended user, none of that really matters - if you're not great at mitering and don't have much welding/brazing experience, you'll need to correct alignment problems on a surface plate no matter how straight your fixture is, so accuracy to thousandths of an inch is irrelevant. Likewise, if you're building <10 frames a year, setup time isn't a big deal.

It's not something I'd personally do, because I'm slammed with (more lucrative, at least for me) bike work. Also I'm a crap machinist. But for some young enterprising machinist/bike builder, I'd bet it'd be a good business to get into.

-Walt



unterhausen said:


> Walt,
> I think you got it.
> 
> I agree about the price. Of course, it probably should cost the same as an Anvil given the complexity, or else he would be under-pricing. Common problem shared by any kind of startup.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*This is what happens...*

...when you rely on guerrilla marketing. If you're concerned about it, tell Jeff to get on here and tell us about his fixture. People are genuinely curious/dubious about it, so if questions and criticism bother you (or you're not willing/able to answer them), you probably shouldn't have posted this.

-Walt



GAAP said:


> I don't know where you are getting your numbers or perceptions of limitations. I strongly suggest you direct your questions to [email protected]


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## Hubcap Cycles (Sep 6, 2009)

Has anyone other than Jeff built a frame out of this jig? That person could answer most of our questions. I don't need to hear from the guy that designed it.
Cheers,
Hub
http://hubcapcycles.com


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## GAAP (Oct 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> ...when you rely on guerrilla marketing. If you're concerned about it, tell Jeff to get on here and tell us about his fixture. People are genuinely curious/dubious about it, so if questions and criticism bother you (or you're not willing/able to answer them), you probably shouldn't have posted this.
> 
> -Walt


Wow, what would make you think I am bothered by any of this?

In my first post I was just trying to share something I thought ya'll might be interested in. In my last post, I was just trying to point you to someone who could add some factual responses to the discussion.

G


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## BentChainring (Jul 10, 2008)

Just sent an email to his email link...

In the ~$1000 range, I would be interested.


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## yoyoma (Mar 13, 2004)

Walt said:


> Weirdly enough, the one gaping hole in the frame fixture market remains unfilled.
> There would be a decent market for a fixture in the ~$1000 range, I think.
> -Walt


Interesting, I'm working on something that might just fill that gap. If you don't mind me using this board to do my market research..... who might be interested in a ready made T-slot extrusion jig that is super easy to set up? Anyone can PM me to let me know.

I doubt I will get to the $1000 price point (I still plan to do some nice stainless cones and dummy axles) but I think $1200 is acheivable... anyone know if the Bringheli is still available? I think it was $1300...


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## MDEnvEngr (Mar 11, 2004)

Walt said:


> There would be a decent market for a fixture in the ~$1000 range, I think.
> -Walt


I believe Doug Fattic is selling a version of a fixture used in conjunction with an alignment table in this price range. The frame is built laying flat instead of vertical. Not so good for blog-worthy building shots, but great for keeping things aligned.

I've built some frames using this method. For the hobby builder it works great. Easy set up, easily varied (us hobby guys often have wildly varying designs from one frame to the next). It can be a pain to tack on the "table" side of the joints, but that is about the only con I can think of.

B


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## GAAP (Oct 5, 2008)

MDEnvEngr said:


> I believe Doug Fattic is selling a version of a fixture used in conjunction with an alignment table in this price range. The frame is built laying flat instead of vertical. Not so good for blog-worthy building shots, but great for keeping things aligned.
> 
> I've built some frames using this method. For the hobby builder it works great. Easy set up, easily varied (us hobby guys often have wildly varying designs from one frame to the next). It can be a pain to tack on the "table" side of the joints, but that is about the only con I can think of.
> 
> B


I displayed Doug's fixture in my booth at NAHBS. It is a very well thought out design. It will cost substantially more than $1,000. Well worth it I might add.

G


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Walt said:


> Then again, maybe I don't understand what's going on.


Yeah, when I first saw it, I was intrigued by having the jig adjust off of the angles around the bottom bracket. Seems like you could set it up easily from angles on a drawing. Then I realized the down tube and seatstay beams don't pivot around the bottom bracket. I guess I don't get it either.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

The price gap is there because at a $1,000 there's no mark up/ little market, and the results won't be that much better than just going without a jig, or getting some cheap v blocks and a piece of granite counter. Or two dished wheels and some string.

-Schmitty-


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

I assume everyone at this point has seen my jig design at Instructables.

As I mention on that page, I encourage anyone to make and sell parts to make this a kit. Make all the parts that can't be made with a drill press. Include some drill templates printed out on paper that can be taped on the beams so that the buyer can do the drilling themselves. Have them included in the construction process, but just take out the parts that need a mill or lathe.

If you do it, I'll happily advertise for you on that page. If you make improvements that make what I came up with look stupid and clumsy, I'll happily point that out too.

Why haven't I done it? Mostly time. Though now I'm out with a knee injury, so maybe this is the winter for me to make it happen?


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

GAAP said:


> I don't know where you are getting your numbers or perceptions of limitations. I strongly suggest you direct your questions to [email protected]


I believe this is him

I don't know if this was a planned guerrilla marketing campaign or not, but it certainly seems that way. I've seen this pop up in 3-4 places so far.


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

yoyoma said:


> ... anyone know if the Bringheli is still available? I think it was $1300...


Last I chatted with Joe (last Sunday) he advised he is backlogged about 3 months on fixtures...still churning them out with a fervor. An inexpensive but accurate tool for the beginning builder.

Last I knew, you could not throw a stone in Portland or the Boston area without hitting one...I think Joe said 20+ in each area 

If you watch closely in a few different spots on the web, tooling has been rolling over in the classifieds fairly consistently; perhaps we've hit the downward curve of the dreamers and reality is setting in that building frames for a living is just plain hard work with moderate financial reward?

cheers,

rody


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Agreed*

I think the thread is interesting enough to let it live, but if anyone has a gripe, let me know and I'll lock it. It's pretty clear that this is an ad, as I've seen it at least one other place.

For those who don't remember, here's the official MTBR policy on advertising/manufacturers:
http://www.mtbr.com/guidelinescrx.aspx#manuguidelines

-Walt



unterhausen said:


> I believe this is him
> 
> I don't know if this was a planned guerrilla marketing campaign or not, but it certainly seems that way. I've seen this pop up in 3-4 places so far.


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## weldo (Jul 21, 2008)

i have emailed, and sad to say there has been NO response...4 days is LAME


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

Rody said:


> If you watch closely in a few different spots on the web, tooling has been rolling over in the classifieds fairly consistently; perhaps we've hit the downward curve of the dreamers and reality is setting in that building frames for a living is just plain hard work with moderate financial reward?
> 
> cheers,
> 
> rody


Too bad you can't use a motorcycle jig to build bike frames, it seems to me that there are a lot more of those on the market. The custom motorcycle market seems to have had a boom-bust cycle that makes custom bicycles look like a pretty steady business.

I suspect that a lot of guys are like me. I decided it was too hard to make it in the framebuilding business in 1980, but I still considered myself a framebuilder. So I kept all of my equipment.


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## A. Spence (Sep 25, 2009)

I emailed the address shown on the flickr photo and received a prompt response. Price will be around $3000. I emailed again with a question about set up and again received a prompt response. The jig is set up from angles taken from your CAD drawing or an excel spreadsheet (vernier scales allow you to set angles with a resolution of 0.02 degrees, which seems excessive to me).

Alistair, in Seattle.
(Using a Nortac jig myself)


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## GAAP (Oct 5, 2008)

For the record I have nothing to do with this jig! Please verify this with JAY_NTWR. Or Jeff the guy making jig. The paranoia and negative tone on this forum is amazing. Good Luck & good bye!


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

GAAP, your posts sound an awful lot like guerilla marketing, whether you intended them to or not. The first few posts you made, you referenced his email in a very short message. You claim to know nothing about it, but instead of asking if anyone was familiar with it, you give basically links. Intended or not, it looks fishy to an outsider.

It's made from 6061, correct? I believe Anvil uses MIC-6, which is a little better for this application. The J-man also comes with a spreadsheet and works with an output from BikeCad Pro. You can get a discount on BC Pro when you buy an Anvil jig also. For $500 extra, I'd go with an Anvil in this price range. I just can't see any reason to use anythign else.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Glenn's brief, he's getting ready for Texas Handmade Bike Show in less than two weeks and has bikes to get completed and delivered to customers. It's in Austin this year, the same place the dude with the jig is. Glenn's promoting the Texas scene and not only are frame builders budding in Texas, now you have tooling folks like this guy and I think Glenn's just stoked to see what's going on here in Texas. I'm not reading it as an add, but I know Glenn. He's no jig maker--I've seen his shop.

FWIW, I'll be at the show (it's at packet pickup for Livestrong 2009 this year) 'cause I'm doing the ride. I'll check it out, ask some questions, figure out how it works, maybe snap some shots, and report back to everyone if anyone is actually interested in hearing more about it.


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## weldo (Jul 21, 2008)

Francis Buxton said:


> GAAP, your posts sound an awful lot like guerilla marketing, whether you intended them to or not. The first few posts you made, you referenced his email in a very short message. You claim to know nothing about it, but instead of asking if anyone was familiar with it, you give basically links. Intended or not, it looks fishy to an outsider.
> 
> It's made from 6061, correct? I believe Anvil uses MIC-6, which is a little better for this application. The J-man also comes with a spreadsheet and works with an output from BikeCad Pro. You can get a discount on BC Pro when you buy an Anvil jig also. For $500 extra, I'd go with an Anvil in this price range. I just can't see any reason to use anythign else.


I totally agree..after I posted that I had not recieved a response, I finally got one. MIC 6 aluminum has to be dimensionally perfect, the tolerances that are set forth as opposed to say a 6061-T6, are critical as the material is used quite extensively in tooling, hince a frame jig. We work with mic6 and 6061, and here are the prices:

1/2" mic 6 - $50.33 per sq ft
1/2" 6061 - $37.66 per sq ft

This seems to me like they need to go back to the drawing board, which he stated in the email, and rethink this idea more closely


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

GAAP said:


> The paranoia and negative tone on this forum is amazing. Good Luck & good bye!


Wow. I thought everyone was being pretty darn fair. It's good to question things. It's good to reason things out. That is not paranoia nor is it negative.

FWIW, I think that the jig is a bit of a waste. Given that they guy could have referenced the Anvil and the Sputnic products and improved on them both, instead he takes a step backward and makes something obviously worse. It really doesn't make much sence. It looks to be as expensive as the other options.

I also agree that, if the market allowed it, a $500-750 kit of specialty machined parts that interfaced with separately purchased 80/20 is really what the market needs. The Welby jig is a basic starting point, but a few critical parts and true quality prints would make all the difference.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Hubcap Cycles said:


> Has anyone other than Jeff built a frame out of this jig? That person could answer most of our questions. I don't need to hear from the guy that designed it.
> Cheers,
> Hub
> http://hubcapcycles.com


I know Jeff the designer of the jig. He's a UT grad student and I believe this was his thesis work. A few years ago we helped him with a few frames he built but then he decided to move into designing a fixture. Unfortunately I've yet to actually see this jig. Clark (the TF welder) has give Jeff quite a bit of feedback regarding this fixture. I'll see if I can get Clark to chime in here. (we too are busy due to the TX builder's show). We told Jeff we'd be willing to build a few bikes with his jig and give him some real world feed back but it would probably be after the TX show. FWIW we are currently using a slightly modified Bringheli.

Clark had mentioned that Jeff had an integrated mitering feature that showed some promise.

Later,
CJB


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

pvd said:


> The Welby jig is a basic starting point, but a few critical parts and true quality prints would make all the difference.


I could make prints, but I've always felt that if I give exact directions there's less potential for people to make improvements. You'd just end up with a lot of clones of something that was intended to be the simplest possible starting point.

I don't know, if I get some demand maybe I'll create some supply.


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## NorseRider (Feb 9, 2004)

In regards to the need for a cheap alterntative: If the main intention is to hold the tubes in a fairly stable manner for tacking I've yet to see something as simple and easy to make as the one Wade at Vulture Cycle uses. Have a look here:

__
https://flic.kr/p/3252898821

Truls


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

Just so folks know the Anvil isn't $3500 anymore that's the old pricing. I talked to Don last week and I believe it's now $4200.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

themanmonkey said:


> Just so folks know the Anvil isn't $3500 anymore that's the old pricing. I talked to Don last week and I believe it's now $4200.


Just to correct the numbers: The new style "Type 2" Journeyman is $3,900. The "Super Journeyman" is $5,400.


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## NorseRider (Feb 9, 2004)

Hey Don, What's the key differences between the old Journeyman, the Type 2 and the Super Journeyman?

Truls


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## servoman (Oct 16, 2009)

GAAP said:


> I displayed Doug's fixture in my booth at NAHBS. It is a very well thought out design. It will cost substantially more than $1,000. Well worth it I might add.
> 
> G


I was at the show and I remember seeing the fixture, but can't remember the booth it was in. There was just too much to see. What was the name of the booth? What bikes do you build?


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

DWF said:


> Just to correct the numbers: The new style "Type 2" Journeyman is $3,900. The "Super Journeyman" is $5,400.


Thanks Don, for some reason I had $4200 in my head, sorry.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

NorseRider said:


> Hey Don, What's the key differences between the old Journeyman, the Type 2 and the Super Journeyman?
> 
> Truls


Yo Truls - Probably not appropriate for me to do so within this thread. I'd be happy to explain it in a new thread or via email.


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## NorseRider (Feb 9, 2004)

DWF said:


> Yo Truls - Probably not appropriate for me to do so within this thread. I'd be happy to explain it in a new thread or via email.


Agreed. Email it is.

T


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

dr.welby said:


> I assume everyone at this point has seen my jig design at Instructables.
> 
> As I mention on that page, I encourage anyone to make and sell parts to make this a kit. Make all the parts that can't be made with a drill press. Include some drill templates printed out on paper that can be taped on the beams so that the buyer can do the drilling themselves. Have them included in the construction process, but just take out the parts that need a mill or lathe.
> 
> Why haven't I done it? Mostly time..


Boy, I am totally with you on the kit thing. Drill press and hand tools are common, but lathe / mill are not so easy to get access to.

Couple of comments: the hard thing to make without a mill is a structure that allows for linear alignment for a sliding member. Materials that we've seen here lately to do that include: 8020 / Bosch aluminum extrusion with internal t-nut channels, precision C channel with sliders keying off outer dimensions, surplus machinery tables, and square precision steel bars held in parallel with skateboard bearing spacers. (I can't remember where I saw that last one, I can't believe it saves $$)

One goal is to NOT have a single shaft with two cones holding both the top and bottom of the head tube, as that makes frame in / frame out transitions very problematic. I'd think each cone on a seperate slider makes more sense. (Loosen top cone, and top seat tube cone only to remove bike frame from jig.)

I'm quite impressed with the rig from Alex Wetmore... nice photos and descriptions. I think his latest jig is based on the Arctos design.

https://alexandchristine.smugmug.com/Bicycles/Projects/Frame-Fixture/6952857_YcqzS#453083573_a8Tx4










I'm kinda wishing somebody would make a kit consisting of all the machined parts Alex is showing on his site.. cones, shafts, sliders and axle spacers.

zip.


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## Monte (Dec 20, 2003)

NorseRider said:


> Agreed. Email it is.
> 
> T


why email? can't the forum be allowed to see this information too?


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

Monte said:


> why email? can't the forum be allowed to see this information too?


I think he just wants to avoid a thread hijack.


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## NorseRider (Feb 9, 2004)

I believe Don's reasoning was that a thread about a competing tool should'nt be hijacked and turned into a discussion about the tooling from Anvil.

Truls


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## Monte (Dec 20, 2003)

RoyDean said:


> I think he just wants to avoid a thread hijack.


Start a new thread.


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