# TIG welding versus brazing



## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Experienced framebuilders: What are the pros and cons of TIG welding vs. brazing? Is there a consensus that one is better than the other? (Fat chance) What about fillet brazing vs. lugged and brazed?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*They're all great.*

All of those joining methods are excellent.

TIG pro:
Fast
No tube angle limitations

TIG con:
Expensive equipment
Difficult to learn to do well enough to build a frame

Fillet pro:
Inexpensive equipment
Relatively easy/quick to gain a very basic level of competence
No tube angle limitations

Fillet con:
Time consuming, even if you're a master. If you're a beginner, making pretty joints will take you days of work.

-Walt



golden boy said:


> Experienced framebuilders: What are the pros and cons of TIG welding vs. brazing? Is there a consensus that one is better than the other? (Fat chance) What about fillet brazing vs. lugged and brazed?


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

how about TIG-Brazing?  it exists, ya know..........


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

I guess my more pointed question is this: I want to take a frambuilding course to get my feet wet and see if I like it. Which method would you recommend for a complete beginner?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*None of them.*

Go take a community college welding/brazing and metalworking class first. It'll help you get more out of the frame class when (if) you decide to do it. Going to UBI or anywhere else as a total novice is a dumb idea, IMO - it's a lot of money, and you're not going to be able to absorb a lot of what they're teaching because you'll be desperately trying to get basic competence at metalwork at the same time.

You should be able to find some welding/metalshop classes for a few hundred bucks. Many of them will allow you to come in before/after class or on the weekends and use the equipment to practice, as well. Take advantage of that, and when you can make nice safe joints with thin tubes, then sign up for a framebuilding class. By that time, you'll have figured out what kind of joining you like to do. It's good to have at least basic competence in all of them anyway.

-Walt



golden boy said:


> I guess my more pointed question is this: I want to take a frambuilding course to get my feet wet and see if I like it. Which method would you recommend for a complete beginner?


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Excellent advice - thanks, Walt!


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Walt said:


> Go take a community college welding/brazing and metalworking class first. It'll help you get more out of the frame class when (if) you decide to do it. Going to UBI or anywhere else as a total novice is a dumb idea, IMO - it's a lot of money, and you're not going to be able to absorb a lot of what they're teaching because you'll be desperately trying to get basic competence at metalwork at the same time.
> 
> You should be able to find some welding/metalshop classes for a few hundred bucks. Many of them will allow you to come in before/after class or on the weekends and use the equipment to practice, as well. Take advantage of that, and when you can make nice safe joints with thin tubes, then sign up for a framebuilding class. By that time, you'll have figured out what kind of joining you like to do. It's good to have at least basic competence in all of them anyway.
> 
> -Walt


It doesn't happen often, but I'm 180 from Walt on this. IMO, going to a frame building school is the best $ investment you can make if for only one reason: you get a frame that you designed, focused on, and built in a short amount of time instead of some half-assed project that dies a lingering death but more importantly: you'll know at the end of the class if you ever want to build another. To me, frame building schools aren't so much about learning to build, sure, you'll be introduced to the basics, but it's more about discovering your compatibility with the process.

I know I sound like a broken record, but my personal experience at UBI was one of the best I've ever had. It definitely changed my life, or better stated, with their help, _I_ changed my life, but it was more than that. It was the ultimate vacation for me at that time. Two-weeks of building bikes with like minded folks. Two weeks of riding bikes every day in a new environment with new friends. Two weeks of camping up on Emigrant Lake and riding my bike back and forth to school. I was heartbroken when it was over. Phuck, I'd give both of Walt's nuts to recapture that experience again.


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## Smokebikes (Feb 2, 2008)

_*"It was the ultimate vacation for me at that time. Two-weeks of building bikes with like minded folks. Two weeks of riding bikes every day in a new environment with new friends. Two weeks of camping up on Emigrant Lake and riding my bike back and forth to school. I was heartbroken when it was over."*............_Sign me up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*Damn* good advice by Walt. :thumbsup: But boy does that vacation sound goooooood.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

I've been down the UBI road so I'd like to chime in here.
I started first taking a basic welding course. Unfortuantley it was stick welding mostly with just a tiny dab into tig.
I went and took the UBI TIG class and I wish I knew how to TIG before I went. You tend to fall about a day or so behind in the lessons practicng and learning TIG so there is alot you miss while learning.
Once you get past the basics, it just practice practice practice (essentially) and you don't have that luxury at UBI.
A few months after I got back, I was finally able to secure a welder, but I also forgot half the stuff about frame building I was supposed to have learned because I was so concerned about welding.
In fact I'm pretty close to just throwing in the towel now.
Anyways, I would say learn the method first. Don't make the mistake of trying to learn the method there.
Welding/brazing and frame building are two distinct processes you have learn and you have to be good at both.


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Excellent points, DWF and toddre. I really appreciate everyone sharing their opinions and experiences. This forum rocks!

DWF, I'll admit, I'm in love with the idea of a two-week framebuilding vacation with like-minded folks. I especially like your point about using the experience to "discover my compatibility with the process." I'm 43, hate my current career, the money's not a problem and I know that I want to work with my hands, whatever I do next. That said, I'm seriously thinking about taking a two-day "intro to TIG welding" class right in my hometown. It may not tell me if I want to make a career of building bike frames, but it will hopefully tell me if I even LIKE welding. Then I can decide if I want to pursue the framebuilding course.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

If you have such an intro class in your town, for sure take it.

I went to UBI in the early 90's for tig. Never built another tig bike in my life, mostly due to the fact that Oxy was cheaper, and way more portable for my then rental existance. The dark lenses also screwed with my eyes.

Either way, you'll learn the nuts and bolts.. I had what I needed to get going slooowly (pre internet, and no one around who knew anything). My experince, even with TIG, is that most guys teaching general welding have no idea about how to weld really thin bike tubes well. The UBI TIG course will include some basic Oxy (braze ons).. enough to get you started.

Whatever you do, plan on coming back and having a good starting point to carry on learning. Unless you are a 'bike guy' or into someking of fab already, din't count on becoming a frame builder after going to UBI. I *believe* DWF had a pretty serious maching background pre UBI.

I would probably opt for tig b/c it's really key to have someone show you, but the design, machining, etc, etc is all relevant. With Oxy, you have a fighting chance of muddling through yourself eventually.

What DWF says about the class is spot on. Great time, great town, etc.

Also, a big one to add to Walts list... with TIG you can build with various materials, not just steel.

-Schmitty-


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## mtbikedroid (Jul 1, 2007)

assuming that we are only talking about decent frame builds here .... not cheapees

I have many pictures of broken tig welded frames.. normally near the welds.. now i'm not saying good tig welding isn't a fine framebuilding process .. but just wondering

I have very few pictures of brazed joints failing ... so is it i just haven't collected the right pictures? .. or perhaps it seems most of my pictures of brazed joints are on non-extreme mtb applications which may not have been stressed as much? .. or i've always thought that a nice smooth brazed joint spread out the loading more? thoughts?


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

golden boy said:


> Excellent points, DWF and toddre. I really appreciate everyone sharing their opinions and experiences. This forum rocks!
> 
> DWF, I'll admit, I'm in love with the idea of a two-week framebuilding vacation with like-minded folks. I especially like your point about using the experience to "discover my compatibility with the process." I'm 43, hate my current career, the money's not a problem and I know that I want to work with my hands, whatever I do next. That said, I'm seriously thinking about taking a two-day "intro to TIG welding" class right in my hometown. It may not tell me if I want to make a career of building bike frames, but it will hopefully tell me if I even LIKE welding. Then I can decide if I want to pursue the framebuilding course.


You sound just like me in '98 when I started this biz. I had a dream job by most people's definition: travel, adventure, pay out the yang, but I was so burnt out dealing with the bureaucracy & the corporate BS side of it that I dreaded going to work. I felt I was wasting my life and your know what? I phacking was. My wife was out of town and one day at work, I had a defining moment, and I defined myself by telling them & my financial security to pound sand. I went home, called my wife to tell her what I'd done, and then packed up my **** and lit out to Moab.

While I was camping & riding alone in the desert I had an opportunity to really explore what I wanted to do. Kinda' scary, but liberating as hell. Like you, I knew I wanted to work with my hands again, to build, to have the end product be more than my signature on another piece of paperwork. I'd read an article in one of the bike mags about a guy going to UBI for framebuilding. I called them, they had an opening and I made tracks to Ashland. In that month, I was completely redefined. No longer managing the huge complexity of staff and projects, everything I was responsible for began and ended within the reach of my own brain and my own hands. The rest is history.

I'll tell you this though: I was phacking lucky as hell. I never planned any of this. I never sat down and calc'd the numbers until I'd been into a number of years. I just cocked the hammer back and pulled the trigger. I never acted on on a business plan that lasted more than 30-minutes. I was in the right place at the right time, both in my life and in the market. Again, I was lucky and many folks who delve into frame building aren't. They're romantic about. They want to be artists. They don't want to work and you have to work. Build something every day. If you don't have an order to fill, work on your skills or making your processes better. Anything that leads to advancement of your experience and your craft. At the beginning, I worked harder and longer for less money than I ever had in my life. I had a family to support. Consider yourself fairly warned.

I know this guy, John Jones, who builds custom cars and making a living doing that is a lot like making a living building frames. He's squared away with his approach to business and I think he captures the essence of what's needed on the opening page on his website, and more importantly, he lives up to what he says:


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

DWF said:


> You sound just like me in '98 when I started this biz. I had a dream job by most people's definition: travel, adventure, pay out the yang, but I was so burnt out dealing with the bureaucracy & the corporate BS side of it that I dreaded going to work. I felt I was wasting my life and your know what? I phacking was. My wife was out of town and one day at work, I had a defining moment, and I defined myself by telling them & my financial security to pound sand. I went home, called my wife to tell her what I'd done, and then packed up my **** and lit out to Moab.
> 
> While I was camping & riding alone in the desert I had an opportunity to really explore what I wanted to do. Kinda' scary, but liberating as hell. Like you, I knew I wanted to work with my hands again, to build, to have the end product be more than my signature on another piece of paperwork. I'd read an article in one of the bike mags about a guy going to UBI for framebuilding. I called them, they had an opening and I made tracks to Ashland. In that month, I was completely redefined. No longer managing the huge complexity of staff and projects, everything I was responsible for began and ended within the reach of my own brain and my own hands. The rest is history.
> 
> ...


That's one of the best posts I've read on here in awhile, Thanks
Tomorrow I'm going to get my tank filled and back under the hood.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Statistics.*

95% or more of all the mountain bikes you see out in the real world are TIG. Maybe more than 95%, actually. And it's more like 100% of the bikes under $2k or so, assuming you're talking about new(ish) stuff from the last decade or two.

So of course you see more broken TIG bikes. There are 20 times more of them.

Done right, all the common construction methods make a safe strong bike. Done wrong, any of them can lead to total disaster.

Fillet and lug bikes do break. There just aren't as many of them around to break.

-Walt



mtbikedroid said:


> assuming that we are only talking about decent frame builds here .... not cheapees
> 
> I have many pictures of broken tig welded frames.. normally near the welds.. now i'm not saying good tig welding isn't a fine framebuilding process .. but just wondering
> 
> I have very few pictures of brazed joints failing ... so is it i just haven't collected the right pictures? .. or perhaps it seems most of my pictures of brazed joints are on non-extreme mtb applications which may not have been stressed as much? .. or i've always thought that a nice smooth brazed joint spread out the loading more? thoughts?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

That's some dank $hit, DWF. Props on that post.

I came out of the whole FCC/Merlin/IF/Seven world. I could have tried to make a business like some of my friends did. I chose not to. I swore to myself to never try to make bike building a vocation. I saw what happened. I saw what even succesful builders have to suffer. I kept if fun. I needed it NOT to be my work. I love pouring my heart into each build just like a love affair. If it was business, I'd hate it. I'd be bitter (ha, right?)

Anyway, my point is that sometimes, you gotta keep your love your hobby. It's different for everyone, but for me that's how it needs to be.


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## mobile chernobyl (Apr 12, 2006)

coconinocycles said:


> how about TIG-Brazing?  it exists, ya know..........


Funny to mention this haha - I've tried this on a few occasion's with limited success. Obviously you can't dab the filler in anywhere near the arc (like you can with a oxy/ac torch) cause of the extreme differences in melting points of the filler and base metals (think massive spatter), so it's a lot of heating and hiding with the arc, the cool thing is you can use the shielding gas for some interesting change in technique over typical flame brazing - you can use non-flux coated brazing filler rod and just have the argon from the tig torch be your shielding gas. 
-Whether this is a real form of brazing I have no idea lol, I was just bored one day and had nothing else to weld.

I was also tig welding copper and brass too, just basically tig welding any and all metals I had a base and (95%+ pure) filler for lol. I tig weld S/S pressure vessel pipes all day at work, all thickness, all joints, all angles, and a combination of anyone with any any other lol, and when you do it for a job I think S/S is arguably the easiest thing to tig weld, so It's fun to try other metals, some less commonly thought of as a metal you'd tig weld, but you can tig weld just about anything with the right settings lol.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

*Warning.. thread drift.. VW PU and Viper V10*

Here's the pic.

As for the topic, I'll add this. At UBI when I went, guys were paired up on each welder. My partner went home the first day crying. No $hit. The idea was neat, but man, he was so far off the back. I'm sure there are other stories like this, you just never hear them. I was stoked... more welder time! you need to bring something to the class.. just a bit. If you don't own a hammer and a few screw drivers, don't go.. at least not with any intent of making it your job. Quite a few guys didn't leave with rideable frames.

I think DWF is waaay in front of the curve compared to most folks who go to UBI. It may be a bit like a guy with perfect pitch saying he loved his stint at Juliart.

-Schmitty-


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Schmitty said:


> Here's the pic.
> 
> As for the topic, I'll add this. At UBI when I went, guys were paired up on each welder. My partner went home the first day crying. No $hit. The idea was neat, but man, he was so far off the back. I'm sure there are other stories like this, you just never hear them. I was stoked... more welder time! you need to bring something to the class.. just a bit. If you don't own a hammer and a few screw drivers, don't go.. at least not with any intent of making it your job. Quite a few guys didn't leave with rideable frames.
> 
> ...


Ha! I saw somebody cry too. Frankie goes to Hollywood if you ask me.

I admit that I grew up in a machine shop and had been welding since the age of 12, but those aren't "make you, break you" skills. A lot of you guys focus too much on the joinery. Expert welds, smooth fillets, and crisp shorelines all matter less than tight miters, an eye for the whole, and the ability to deliver what your customers want whether they know it or not. You know the old saying about Colt, "God created man. Col. Colt made them equal.?" Just subsitute "good paint" for "Col. Colt" when it comes to building.

Also, I like to make the assumption that anybody who seriously considers frame building for a career has some past experience with fabrication of some form in some medium.

Oh, and here's my bus:


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

And it's a freekin' write off no less! You're killing me. 

Had one really similar van eons ago. Also had an '84 Westy with a Ford V6 that got second gear chirpies and better mileage that stock... went to Moab a bunch of times.

I'd like to pop a Synchro crew cab PU from Canada.

-Schmitty-


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Schmitty said:


> And it's a freekin' write off no less! You're killing me.
> 
> Had one really similar van eons ago. Also had an '84 Westy with a Ford V6 that got second gear chirpies and better mileage that stock... went to Moab a bunch of times.
> 
> ...


Yeah, baby! 165-horses of Type 4 engine (think 912/914 Porsche) in a 2400 pound bus and it'll take the tires to the cords.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

My loins ache for that bus.


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## vulture (Jan 13, 2004)

Type 4 165hp=grenade!

About brazing and Tig welding. I love tig welding but guess what. If you are going to build bikes you will need a gas torch for braze ons anyway. Learn how to braze and if you get a tig machine, learn how to use that too. I think Drew from Engin said "why not learn both?" The dude is really really good at brazing and tig welding. I did not learn squat for building frames in JC welding class but knowing how to do other processes helped me to build tables and fixtures. I learned how to tig weld by getting a job building custom race car fuel cells and learned how to tig weld well by building cromo airplane frames. UBI was a blast by the way. I have thought it would be fun to teach a tig practice class that sets someone up for success at UBI down the road. The urge to practice laying nice fillet brazes is starting to well up inside of me and my new gasfluxer that fell into my lap is helping.
Bust it out.


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## wbarocsi (Jul 22, 2008)

I teach a JC welding class as part of my school's Automotive Technology program. The goal of a one semester course is not to teach students to be welders. That can't be accomplished in the time allowed. My course introduces students to the various types of welding/ brazing, and (hopefully) gives them the academic background to understand how each process works, what a good weld looks like, etc. It is also part gym class, we introduce the equipment, and practice enough to be able to develop further skills on their own. Most students find the course fun, valuable, and challenging.



Wade Barocsi
Cheshire, CT


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

vulture said:


> Type 4 165hp=grenade!


Nah. 2.3-liter, billet crank, h-beam rods, forged pistons, ported heads, DTM cooling system, etc., etc. Best parts available + it's a Jake Raby engine. :thumbsup:


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## ted wojcik (Mar 12, 2006)

Over the years, I have been asked about a frame building class, I am probably going to do that in the very near future, but I don't think I could teach someone to weld or braze in conjunction with frame building in two weeks. Sort of like trying to teach calligraphy to some one who has never held a pencil. I'm glad DWF felt comfortable with what he got out of U.B.I. I don't think I could give someone their monies worth in a class about frame building unless they had some basic skills with a torch, T.I.G. or O.A.


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Damn....great stuff, DWF. You spoke from the heart. It's great to hear from someone who has been at a similar crossroads.

Oh - I'm not really a car guy, but that is one sweet microbus!!!


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

@ Walt: thanks for the statistics re: TIG welded frames. It is quite likely that if I decide to pursue framebuilding as a career I would start by trying to work for someone else. I know that most low-end bikes are robotically welded, but it sounds like TIG welding skills would make me more marketable.

@ DWF: Lovin' that paint job!


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## Smokebikes (Feb 2, 2008)

Best thread ever! Thanks guys.....good energy and lots of information gleaned from experience. Now, time to go and start a gasfluxer thread..............:thumbsup:


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

Schmitty said:


> Here's the pic.
> 
> As for the topic, I'll add this. At UBI when I went, guys were paired up on each welder. My partner went home the first day crying. No $hit. The idea was neat, but man, he was so far off the back. I'm sure there are other stories like this, you just never hear them.
> 
> -Schmitty-


There are some guys in Montreal that teach framebuilding. They have a video on youtube which is an advertisement for their school. They show a student trying to braze a bottom bracket, and if I was going to try to do a parody of a beginner brazing, that's exactly what I'd do -- brazing material everywhere but in the joint. I have often wondered if a lot of people wouldn't be better off buying some plumbing solder and some copper pipe and a batch of fittings and sweating that together before they even think about picking up a torch and brazing rod. If that doesn't go well, then they will know they should learn how to build composite bikes or something. I have a theory that some people simply lack something required for physical skills like welding or brazing, and that they will always have problems. Because the opposite is definitely true, some people can pick up almost any physical skill without much trouble.


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

DWF said:


> Oh, and here's my bus:


Ok Don, it's official...paint me green with envy 

If that red one in the background is lonely you know where to find me.

cheers,

rody


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

With affordable brazing and welding instruction available at your local continuing education program, there's no reason to enter a framebuilding class without getting some experience first.

I've never heard anyone say that they wished they'd gone in with less knowledge.

(should I post pics of my 295hp, 1900lb 510?)


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

A big negative of brazing is haz mat exposure. Acetelyne dust/smoke, metal filings, flux, flux fumes, and used soak water are all a drag. Given what dentists have to go through as far as recpature of metals from their suction tubes, I can only surmise that what builders put down the drain would get the authorities attention if they had any clue.

It's freekin dirty... must closer to a blacksmiths shop than a tig work room is.

-Schmitty-


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

D.F.L. said:


> (should I post pics of my 295hp, 1900lb 510?)


You need to ask?!


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Rody said:


> Ok Don, it's official...paint me green with envy
> 
> If that red one in the background is lonely you know where to find me.
> 
> ...


The only one that's mine is the green one. My official delivery van. That red double cab is SWEET but belongs to another dude. Those shop pics are where I'm having the work done on the bus, Kustom Coach Werks in Grand Junction, CO. BTW, did you ever get my last email? Never heard back from you & I owe you $$. :thumbsup:


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

ted wojcik said:


> Over the years, I have been asked about a frame building class, I am probably going to do that in the very near future, but I don't think I could teach someone to weld or braze in conjunction with frame building in two weeks. Sort of like trying to teach calligraphy to some one who has never held a pencil. I'm glad DWF felt comfortable with what he got out of U.B.I. I don't think I could give someone their monies worth in a class about frame building unless they had some basic skills with a torch, T.I.G. or O.A.


I get your point Ted, but it's an introductory class, not a master's degree. Or even an associates for that matter. Nobody should go with the idea they're going to return a frame builder; UBI was pretty good about reinforcing that. Like I said, I see it as an inexpensive filter where you get introduced to what goes into building a frame, get an understanding that it's not all rainbows & unicorns, and get to take home a frame in the process. What's not to love?


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

@ Schmitty: Thanks for bringing up the environmental concerns. I love hands-on work but I don't like exposing myself to more harmful fumes, etc. than necessary. Nor do I want to pollute the planet more than necessary. Sounds like another point in favor of TIG welding.


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## flatfoot1 (Sep 8, 2009)

*misconception*

I guess I had a misconception of the school. There are a good number of people, yourself included that have the fabrication skills to build a frame with very little classroom instruction and a some who just will never get the hang of it, no matter how long they go to school or apprentice with someone. Hearing how pleased you and many others are with UBI tells me my expectations were unrealistic.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

golden boy said:


> @ Schmitty: Thanks for bringing up the environmental concerns. I love hands-on work but I don't like exposing myself to more harmful fumes, etc. than necessary. Nor do I want to pollute the planet more than necessary. Sounds like another point in favor of TIG welding.


Great thread. You have to consider the whole picture though. Yes, flux is not the best thing although a big chunk of it is a naturally occurring substance, borax.

Consider that TIG welding uses Argon gases which take a large amount of electricity to produce. The welder uses a bunch of electricity and you can still get screwed through TIG welding if you are vaporizing metal and breathing it in. Tungsten can also be radioactive.

You have to determine where you electricity is coming from. If it is from a coal burning power plant. You are still screwing the planet. Just not at home.

When Acetylene burns with O2 you get only CO2 and water. If you go running big ol' acetylene flames without any O2 in your shop you will get soot all over and in you.

Luckily for us I think any process we use has a pretty low impact if we are at all careful.


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Thanks for your input, Dave. I'm thrilled with the responses this thread has generated.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

dbohemian said:


> Great thread. You have to consider the whole picture though. Yes, flux is not the best thing although a big chunk of it is a naturally occurring substance, borax.
> 
> Consider that TIG welding uses Argon gases which take a large amount of electricity to produce. The welder uses a bunch of electricity and you can still get screwed through TIG welding if you are vaporizing metal and breathing it in. Tungsten can also be radioactive.
> 
> ...


Not going to touch the 'which one screws the planet more' debate with a 10 foot pole.

I think it's safe to say TIG makes for a cleaner/safer work space. While there's a bit of abrasive involved with TIG Al wheels etc, it pales compared to Oxy.. between the abrasive dust of choice, and the filler dust of choice, it's nasty. Some fluxes and filler are also very nasty (while others aren't), so much so that they will probably not be available in the long term.

-Schmitty-


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

ted wojcik said:


> Over the years, I have been asked about a frame building class, I am probably going to do that in the very near future, but I don't think I could teach someone to weld or braze in conjunction with frame building in two weeks. Sort of like trying to teach calligraphy to some one who has never held a pencil. I'm glad DWF felt comfortable with what he got out of U.B.I. I don't think I could give someone their monies worth in a class about frame building unless they had some basic skills with a torch, T.I.G. or O.A.


Agreed. Taking a frame building class without welding/brazing skills is like going to a freeride skills clinic at Whistler before learning to ride a bicycle.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

shiggy said:


> Agreed. Taking a frame building class without welding/brazing skills is like going to a freeride skills clinic at Whistler before learning to ride a bicycle.


Pisshaw! Going to school without an education is like....going to school?


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

DWF said:


> Pisshaw! Going to school without an education is like....going to school?


There is a difference between "school" and "classes." The former is general, while the latter is specific and may have prerequisites. You had the prerequisites covered long before you went to the FB class. Those that left crying most likely did not.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

shiggy said:


> There is a difference between "school" and "classes." The former is general, while the latter is specific and may have prerequisites. You had the prerequisites covered long before you went to the FB class. Those that left crying most likely did not.


And those that left crying learned a very basic lesson that many don't discover until _after_ they've wasted a lot of time & money: they're not cut out for framebuilding.

That said, most people don't end up crying. In my class, I'd say at least 80% or better of the people finished their frames even without any prior skill with a torch of any sort. Some guys were way out of their element. Wanting to build frames is not the same as doing it. Look how many folks went through Walt's challenge before Jay.

Building frames is a touch more complicated and carries much more risk than playing whiffle ball. Not everybody is up to the challenge and I'm perfectly fine with it.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

DWF said:


> And those that left crying learned a very basic lesson that many don't discover until _after_ they've wasted a lot of time & money: they're not cut out for framebuilding.
> 
> That said, most people don't end up crying. In my class, I'd say at least 80% or better of the people finished their frames even without any prior skill with a torch of any sort. Some guys were way out of their element. Wanting to build frames is not the same as doing it. Look how many folks went through Walt's challenge before Jay.
> 
> Building frames is a touch more complicated and carries much more risk than playing whiffle ball. Not everybody is up to the challenge and I'm perfectly fine with it.


+1. I would take the exact same 2 wk TIG couse in heartbeat 10+ years and many fillet frames later. I suspect it would be a toss up if I took away more from the first or second class. Maybe I should see if they have a punch card.

-Schmitty-


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## bee (Apr 7, 2008)

What's the best way to practice TIG? I did a TIG class at a community college and all we did was start off stick-welding. The actual TIG welding that I did was right angle welding. That is, basically two small flat pieces of metal set up at a 90 degree right angle. And practice welding that. I assume that welding a frame would be much harder because of the size of the size of the frame plus the tubes being round.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

bee said:


> What's the best way to practice TIG? I did a TIG class at a community college and all we did was start off stick-welding. The actual TIG welding that I did was right angle welding. That is, basically two small flat pieces of metal set up at a 90 degree right angle. And practice welding that. I assume that welding a frame would be much harder because of the size of the size of the frame plus the tubes being round.


I'm not expert, but I believe practicing on what you want to get good at is the best way. So miter lots of thin wall tubing and weld it. Now if you want to make bikes out of flatbar with 90 degree junctions, then that sounds like a good way.

I typically learn things the hard way though.


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

bee said:


> What's the best way to practice TIG? I did a TIG class at a community college and all we did was start off stick-welding. The actual TIG welding that I did was right angle welding. That is, basically two small flat pieces of metal set up at a 90 degree right angle. And practice welding that. I assume that welding a frame would be much harder because of the size of the size of the frame plus the tubes being round.


Stick welding is usually what you're going to learn because that's what is still used mostly in large industry. Most of the folks in there will be looking to get their stick certification, so that teach to that. The class I took last winter I told the instructor what I wanted to do and he said OK. I made T-joints too, but I used the thinnest stainless sheet scrap I could find in the bins. I paid $275 and went though that much in materials most likely.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

Production = TIG
You want a frame that will bend before it breaks then Braze.

You can certainly stress relieve, anneal or even heat treat a TIG frame and get very good results.

Both are art forms. 

As far as going to UBI then I would be sure to have a very good understanding of welding first and go to the school to apply those skills to frame building. Don't look to UBI as a welding school as much although you will learn some tricks.

I personally didn't go to the school. I learned by asking questions from the masters, and working for them so in essence was getting paid to learn. Then I would practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice and again never be satisfied with the results.

Strive for improvement on everything you do and never be happy with your results. Compare with the best and refuse to be the top dog on the block and hang out with folks that are better than you and learn, learn, learn. Be that sponge. 

I live my life by the above rules and be humble.


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm in the TIG welding class at the local community college. The Crucible (burning man group) teaches a "build your own one-speed" class that teaches you how to TIG weld in 10 classes for $5XX. Ironically, a couple guys in my cc TIG welding class came from the Crucible class without learning how - failed to build a frame! About 12 weeks in on this course and the class is only on butt and lap joints. Laying down a single bead that is fluid and with full penetration is difficult. It takes a lot of time to perfect electric sex welds!!! That was the whole point of my enrollment - to gain an appreciation for the art of welding steel. If I can melt a bunch of mitered tubes together with finesse, even better.


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