# Why an E-MTB?



## kuna (Feb 25, 2005)

So I can see there merit on a commuter bike to work, but why on an MTB? I see people mention that it helps the "old" guys keep riding, but I see a lot of "old" guys riding now, and they inspire me to keep riding. I see posts about getting the average "joe" of the couch, but these people take up riding, triathlons, and fun runs all the time. The bikes are 40+lbs, so if I have a 27lbs non-assist bike, doesn't that equate out? I see trails that are non-motorized and motorized and land managers are already banning these e-bikes; and the MTB community hasn't argued back on that. So again why an E-MTB?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Money. I believe e-mtbs are by & large an industry driven product with a huge untapped potential market at stake, made possible by a loophole (pedal _assist- not motorized!_) that is salable to the public. If non pedal assist motorbikes were already allowed on multi-use wilderness trails does it really seem plausible that e-mtb's would be of any interest?

Does anyone remember when mopeds actually had pedals on them? Why do you suppose that was so?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

There may well be a bicycle industry conspiracy to promote ebikes, but it isn't going very well: most of the ebikes I see are home made using mail order Chinese parts. Why spend $4500 for an OEM ebike when you can slap a motor on an old MTB for $700?


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## DannyvG (Apr 21, 2014)

kuna said:


> why an E-MTB?


For me it is because I don't care much about the pedalling itself, I used to ride a lot of downhill but am now limited to local flat xc tracks. And the ebike lets me focus on what I like about mountain biking, having fun on a mountainbike on mtb-trails.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Easy answer: More fun for less work.



> Does anyone remember when mopeds actually had pedals on them?


I remember pedalling those crappy things when they croaked, as much fun as pedalling a DH bike set up with a granny. :lol:


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I like being able to cover 3 or 4 times the ground for the same effort and in the same time........


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

WoodlandHills said:


> There may well be a bicycle industry conspiracy to promote ebikes, but it isn't going very well: most of the ebikes I see are home made using mail order Chinese parts. Why spend $4500 for an OEM ebike when you can slap a motor on an old MTB for $700?


 Yup and when it breaks you have a 700 dollar boat anchor unable to be fixed, kinda the take it to the internet story all over again. Buy from a reputable source and you will have reputable service and parts availability keeping your e-bike working for many years.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Given how fast the technology is changing that $4500 OEM bike with $1000 batteries will be obsolete long before it wears out. My $700 mid drive is bought in the USA from a shop about 30 miles away. No problem with service although with only 1000 miles on the bikes there haven't been many issues. One of my controllers began to act up, but they sent me a new one and it was in my hands within 5 days. 

I can upgrade into better batteries or replace the entire motor several times before I get close to the cost of that factory stuff. It just like electric cars: the tech is changing so quickly it's stupid to buy, so we leased an i3 for three years. A Bafang mid-drive is simply a way to avoid spending a fortune on a 286 or 386 when the Pentiums are coming out next year.......


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

NEPMTBA said:


> Yup and when it breaks you have a 700 dollar boat anchor unable to be fixed, kinda the take it to the internet story all over again. Buy from a reputable source and you will have reputable service and parts availability keeping your e-bike working for many years.


Wow, someone is butthurt.

If someone builds their own eBike from a kit, they certainly know where to go to get replacement parts. A $700 kit has about a dozen components and if one quits working the entire rig doesn't become a "boat anchor".


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

It will be interesting to see if the forum has instructions to promote the OEM Bosch ebikes over the far cheaper kits? Time will tell us if we keep an eye on posts and comments.....


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Wish my BMC hub motor from HPC was that good High Power Cycle it died after only 100 mi


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## Singletrack29er (Oct 13, 2015)

rider95 said:


> Wish my BMC hub motor from HPC was that good High Power Cycle it died after only 100 mi


Guess that means it is time to pedal again like the rest of us:thumbsup:


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

wish I could


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## Singletrack29er (Oct 13, 2015)

If it is the case that you cannot actually, I am very sorry to hear that


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Thanks the kind words much unexpected


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

honkinunit said:


> Wow, someone is butthurt.
> 
> If someone builds their own eBike from a kit, they certainly know where to go to get replacement parts. A $700 kit has about a dozen components and if one quits working the entire rig doesn't become a "boat anchor".


 Let me clarify...

I was referring to a customer walking into a shop buying an e bike and riding out the same day not buying it from the internet. Of course custom builders have many options, but are fewer then the average Joe looking to buy and e bike.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

The guy who pays $4000 + from a shop for a e bike will have it serviced or repaired at that shop, the guy who buys a kit from e bay and puts it on a cheap dumpster bike won,t . Its the guy buying and riding the e bike from a shop that we want to see on the trail and is by far the one you will most likely see on a trail . The DIY crowd on cheap Walmart bikes are more after speed and distance .


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Electric bikes are ideal for DUI recipients.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

What if the motor isn't on the bike?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Reason for me to have an eMTB is that it represents a different experience. It was difficult to get motivated after 30 years of riding SoCal trails even with trips all over UT and AZ. Now, an occasional eMTB ride is a nice offset. Also, will permit the wife and me to bikepack for weekend outings. The e-assist should be beneficial when ascending 4000' with camping gear. We've ridden these fire roads unassisted, but not with tents, sleeping bags etc. Also, I've constructed DIY ebikes for myself and friends successfully, but still think that the Bosch, Brose, Yamaha ans BionX systems are better and worth the expenditure. Their warranties reflect their quality TO ME.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

rider95 said:


> The guy who pays $4000 + from a shop for a e bike will have it serviced or repaired at that shop, the guy who buys a kit from e bay and puts it on a cheap dumpster bike won,t . Its the guy buying and riding the e bike from a shop that we want to see on the trail and is by far the one you will most likely see on a trail . The DIY crowd on cheap Walmart bikes are more after speed and distance .


 So what you are saying is that folks who don't have enough money to buy $4000 OEM ebikes are not the kind you want on the trails? Do you have any evidence that people who don't buy their bikes from a LBS are more likely to speed on the trails or is this just class based prejudice?

Honestly, I am involved with all sorts of Internet forums on all sorts of topics and I have never seen such snobbery as I have on bicycling forums...... On both sides of the ebike divide!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Here's a good reason for me to have a e bike 3 yrs ago I was in the hosp for heart failure yesterday I rode my ebike to my heart Dr for my check up , he said my ekg was good and he was pleased with my progress. This is all because my e bike making me get out in ride , weekends are for trail riding now not for nascar watching .


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

rider95 said:


> Here's a good reason for me to have a e bike 3 yrs ago I was in the hosp for heart failure yesterday I rode my ebike to my heart Dr for my check up , he said my ekg was good and he was pleased with my progress. This is all because my e bike making me get out in ride , weekends are for trail riding now not for nascar watching .


That's terrific, Congrats on your recovery and getting out there!


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

I just ordered one. Haibike Sduro AMT plus.

I have two single track motos, KTM and GasGas Trials, and a mojo SL. 

Today I rode a Haibike sduro RC, and was totally hooked.

It is a different experience. A very fun one. I will ride a greater variety of local trails more often because it's alot easier. I can carry my Leica and some lenses, and other stuff too.

That bike has 3" tires which will make it alot more forgiving, without a big hit on the climb ability. Mtb riding is incredibly physically demanding. Everyone I know agrees. Nothing they do kills them off like a MTB. It's gets to the point where your co-ordination is effected. 

So if you are not out to blaze about, this bike is going to be alot safer for me than the mojo SL. Not that I won't ride that anymore ever. I'll ride it just as much. But I may well ride my motos less.

Luckily I live in Ketchum, Idaho, so there are many many mtb trails which are motorized. That said, after riding the bike today, I believe the impact on trails is the same with the Haibike as the mojo SL, if not less, since you can be so smooth with it.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Your experience mirrors what IMBA discovered when they were trying to prove that eMTB's caused more erosion to trails than MTB's. They posted the initial results, but I haven't seen a follow up on the final data.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

fos'l said:


> Your experience mirrors what IMBA discovered when they were trying to prove that eMTB's caused more erosion to trails than MTB's. They posted the initial results, but I haven't seen a follow up on the final data.


Yeah, around here we have alot of hard riding MTBers. Downhill they can keep up with my motorcyles (me riding). In that case the trail erosion would be higher from them than from me on my moto, honestly, since I am on trials tires at 8LBs, and I don't spin. The bikes have such narrow tires they cut in to the surface alot more.

That said trail erosion is way over hyped in my opinion. One hard rainstorm does more erosion damage all over the place here (off trails) than all motos and Mtbs and every trail user combined since WW2.

When I first started riding alot on my motorcyles I thought whoa, there are some grooves and whoops out here! These motorbikes are "tearing it up".

But those same trails were identical 10 years later. No worse. Only when some were closed due to fires did they deteriorate.

Why?

Wheels compact the soil on trails and resist water erosion. As long as the riding is regular.

E-bike hate is certainly pretty common here, and on many MTB forums. "Ebikes are from the devil", the worst thing ever and we are going to loose our access all because of them.

There is nothing to back any of that up. But he mindset at NFS and BLM is pro-closure when they can get away with it (which terrifies the MTB people) Yet cattle are exempted.

Think about that. Cows are all over the backcountry, including in some wilderness areas. Incredible damage from them. Sheep OMG don't get me started.

But Ebikes? They are from ISIS!


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

I've been doing a little riding on the Pocatello MTB trails, and it, my e bike, is SO not an issue with any other riders, I think that is probably because our Idaho population density is such that we all are wound a little looser then the guys near the big urban centers. Nobody is afraid I'm going to shut down their trails anyway! 99% of my riding is FS roads and multi use. Most of them I can go for hours and never see another person, in fact it's rare as hell to.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

portnuefpeddler said:


> I've been doing a little riding on the Pocatello MTB trails, and it, my e bike, is SO not an issue with any other riders, I think that is probably because our Idaho population density is such that we all are wound a little looser then the guys near the big urban centers. Nobody is afraid I'm going to shut down their trails anyway! 99% of my riding is FS roads and multi use. Most of them I can go for hours and never see another person, in fact it's rare as hell to.


Nice 

I'm not expecting any problems here either:

Kickstand by unoh7, on Flickr

We are lucky in that we have a huge network of motorized trails in the Ketchum area, which have been discovered by Mtn bikers more and more as the sport becomes more popular. I do see people close in to the popular trail heads, but as I get 5 + miles out, I rarely see anyone, either.

Once, years ago I was aways out and ran into a friend on his mtn bike. "I hope I wasn't too noisy coming up..", I said. I was on a YZ250f or something. "Are you kidding," he replied. "I'm always glad to see motorbikes, in case I need help."

Now my bikes are quiet enough I will surprise both people and game, the latter on nearly every ride. I don't go wildly fast, especially if I can't see, so in many years I've never come close to anybody yet. 

Now, on my mojo SL I'm a danger to myself and anyone near me LOL I'm look ing forward to wearing a bit of protection on the Haibike, which would be way too hot on the mojo.

I would not be surprised if a careful study showed the same rider was lower impact on a pedal assist than mtb, simply because there's more energy left to ride smooth.


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## Rob997 (Jul 1, 2007)

At 56 years of age and after years of skiing, biking, water skiing, etc. etc., the knees are not what they used to be. I have been road and mountain biking actively for the last 10 years and my knees are progressive getting worse (yes, been checked out by a doc and had Retul bike fits). I ride between 5-8 hours a week on both bikes. I enjoy the MTB more as it gets be away from the city (cars) and out in nature. Unfortunately, the more time on spend on the MTB bike the more time I end up on the sofa recovering lately.

My interest in eMTB was sparked by the Levo so I thought I would give it a try. Could this help me and my ailing knees? Could this prolong my MTB riding? Well, after 5 hours of testing over a 24-hour time period, longest ride being 2 hours and 3,500 feet of vertical, I believe this will certainly help by MTB future. The assisted watts (you control) takes the strain off the knee…and heart as a bonus. Instead of redlining some of my climbs I can do them at a controlled threshold. Still a great workout while not over doing it. This will make my cardiologist happy. He thinks I am an idiot for MTB biking and long distance cycling…the century stuff.

Was I faster on the climbs? Yes, by 1-2 MPH. I actually sought out climbs I normally avoided not to strain the knee. This bike changes how you approach climbs in a very positive way. Was I faster on the descents? No, but having 3” tires brought a new dimension to going down as line choice is not as critical.

I still slowed down for hikers, pulled over for horseback riders, and said hello to everyone I encountered. After all, isn’t being courteous and respectful to everyone out enjoying the outdoors the way to go? For those who are wondering, the area I rode was cleared for class 1 e-bikes.

Am I selling my 24lb Pivot 429SL for a 45lb eMTB? Not a chance. Will an eMTB be an addition to my weaponry in the garage? Yes. That’s an absolute yes. And most of that absolute comes from how fun this bike is to ride.

I fall in the same camp as many other who have ridden this bike before me. I was skeptical about the concept in the beginning. But once you throw a leg over this thing you appreciate what it can do for your body (I do not want to give up riding my bike) and riding experience. Specialized did it right with this pedal assist bike…it’s not a slouch. It adds a new dimension to cycling.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Rob997 said:


> At 56 years of age and after years of skiing, biking, water skiing, etc. etc...........


An alternative would be to ride (bicycle) at an easier pace on flatter trails.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

So, if your knees really can't handle pedaling at all in 5 or 10 years, should you be allowed to ride an electric/no pedals moto on the same trails? That would be sort of the logical continuation of your line of thought here. And if saying your knees hurt is all it takes to allow moto access, I'm guessing all of a sudden we'll have an awful lot of bum knees popping up...

Gear down for those hills and go a little slower, or do different rides. 

-Walt


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> So, if your knees really can't handle pedaling at all in 5 or 10 years, should you be allowed to ride an electric/no pedals moto on the same trails? That would be sort of the logical continuation of your line of thought here. And if saying your knees hurt is all it takes to allow moto access, I'm guessing all of a sudden we'll have an awful lot of bum knees popping up...
> 
> Gear down for those hills and go a little slower, or do different rides.
> 
> -Walt


Walt, you are not even talking about the same thing. He just patiently explained his experience with a Levo and you come back with a tirade about "electric/no pedals moto".

There is already a legal distinction between the two.

The only morality in the whole argument is impact. You tell him to keep of the harder trails if he has bad knees, even if he can enjoy them with no more actual impact on an e-bike, and considerably less impact than an aggressive mtb rider.

Some day you will be in that state and it's going to be just that much more brutal for your utter lack of empathy today. 

Such a heartless draconian view just encourages the common impression of MTB riders as "watch out below" greedy trail snobs who need some serious regulation


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> Walt, you are not even talking about the same thing.


I thought the post was completely relevant, maybe you missed his point? Just my draconian view.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

uhoh7 said:


> Walt, you are not even talking about the same thing. He just patiently explained his experience with a Levo and you come back with a tirade about "electric/no pedals moto".


I thought his point was that his bad knees prevent him from riding steep climbs, so he deserved/had the right to an assist. By that logic, if his knees get even worse, he deserves to not have to pedal, right?

If you take this far enough, then any amount of suffering of any kind means you should be able to do whatever you want. I don't like being tired, or balancing on my bike, so I shoudl be allowed to take my e-ATV on your trails.

Pretty straightforward argument from both of us, really.

-Walt


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> If you take this far enough, then any amount of suffering of any kind means you should be able to do whatever you want. I don't like being tired, or balancing on my bike, so I shoudl be allowed to take my e-ATV on your trails.


Barring objective harms to the trail or unresolvabe user conflicts - everyone should be allowed on every trail.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> I thought his point was that his bad knees prevent him from riding steep climbs, so he deserved/had the right to an assist. By that logic, if his knees get even worse, he deserves to not have to pedal, right?
> 
> If you take this far enough, then any amount of suffering of any kind means you should be able to do whatever you want. I don't like being tired, or balancing on my bike, so I shoudl be allowed to take my e-ATV on your trails.
> 
> ...


LOL what a stretch. Let's ban pedal e-bikes because if we allow them E-ATVs are going ruin all our single track! For that mental gymnastic, you are excused from yoga today 

Why don't we just all fight for smart regulations which focus on impact, rather than sweeping out-of-date generalizations?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes, and mountain bikes already cause "objective" problems. Adding power and speed will mean more. 

-Walt


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> Yes, and mountain bikes already cause "objective" problems. Adding power and speed will mean more.


So for logical consistency - you are for removing mountain bikes from those areas, correct?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes, on trails where they cause significant disruption/problems for other users, they should be banned. Bikes certainly don't belong on every trail, and nobody in the advocacy community would say otherwise.

-Walt


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

Getting back to the original question "Why a e-MTB"?

Today's ride, on the range across the valley from my place, a 6 mile 2 K gain multi use trail. For sure it would have been more fun if I had pedaled the entire way without any assist, but I made the best of a horrible situation and had a great time anyway. FWIW: My grid tied solar/wind/hydro system at home allows me to recharge with my excess power, which I have a lot of this time of year. On the way down I met two dirt bikers coming up, guys in their 20's, I looked at them like, "you pussies, you're cheating!" Of course they didn't have time to see I was on a e bike as they whizzed by, but I'm sure they were going "damn, can you believe that guy pedaled up here?" I hope I didn't tear the trail up too much for them.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Sweet!

Hardtail pedelec fat-bike  DIY?

sry if Imissed the description before 

One thing I am hoping for:

Txt Pro by unoh7, on Flickr

Less maintenance, similar views 


DSC07966 by unoh7, on Flickr

about 3 miles (for a bird) from my house


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

uhoh7 said:


> LOL what a stretch. Let's ban pedal e-bikes because if we allow them E-ATVs are going ruin all our single track! For that mental gymnastic, you are excused from yoga today
> 
> Why don't we just all fight for smart regulations which focus on impact, rather than sweeping out-of-date generalizations?


See this is the issue: "we". Why should I fight to get you something I don't want to see on my trails? I want to see mountain bikes. I want to see people ascending at a speed that most other users are ascending at. I want to see people riding 30 lbs bikes and I want to see people that are physically fit enough to get themselves as deep into a trail system as they can and have the fitness to get themselves out. This is my issue, besides the legality of it, and that which irks people like Walt. We should we have to support what we consider not mountain bikes on the trails we have work decades on securing our rights to ride because you want to ride on them?


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

rockcrusher said:


> See this is the issue: "we". Why should I fight to get you something I don't want to see on my trails? I want to see mountain bikes. I want to see people ascending at a speed that most other users are ascending at. I want to see people riding 30 lbs bikes and I want to see people that are physically fit enough to get themselves as deep into a trail system as they can and have the fitness to get themselves out. This is my issue, besides the legality of it, and that which irks people like Walt. We should we have to support what we consider not mountain bikes on the trails we have work decades on securing our rights to ride because you want to ride on them?


You don't want to see pedelecs because they might pass you uphill? And you think the mtb rider is going to get his injured body out easier?

When I ride my motorbikes I am prepared to spend the night, and I'm armoured in case I fall, which happens extremely rarely. I carry enough first aid and if I have my KTM I could actually bring somebody out.

On my mojo SL, I'm naked. Shape or no shape a fast mtb rider is incredibly vulnerable. If I switch to your ethos, I would say irresponsibly so. 

The urge to control and restrict others, not because of bad behavior, but because of their tools, just amazes me.

In this country you can take a AR-15 anywhere, but pick the wrong trail and you are "ruining it" LOL For the record I don't own a gun  And I'd just as soon they were banned. Just not Pedelcs


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

That's my Sturgis Bullet fattie, with a BBSHD, a 11.5 ah 52 volt battery, and a 30T chain ring, it's my rock crawler. I have a bit over 400 miles on it, all of it very rough dirt bike trails mostly, and it's holding up well. My average ride is about 2 hours, usually involving a hard climb to the top of whatever, and then a ....wait for it.....fast descent. Sound familiar? The concept of a trail winding through more or less level terrain is pretty foreign to me, my place is 1,000' above the valley, the peak right behind over 9, it's all up and down. 

On the more "epic" rides, I grab the PLB (personal locator beacon, sat based) out of the airplane and throw it in the pack. It could be the get out of jail free card is things really go south. They are cheap, small, and light enough that nowadays anyone that hangs out in the back country should strongly consider getting one.

Quit posting those great videos of the riding we have in Idaho, I'll try not to post any more pictures, we don't want more people moving out here! I appreciate the hell out of it all even more, seeing the access issues and concerns expressed here by those living elsewhere, we are lucky SOB's!


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

uhoh7 said:


> Once, years ago I was aways out and ran into a friend on his mtn bike. "I hope I wasn't too noisy coming up..", I said. I was on a YZ250f or something. "Are you kidding," he replied. "I'm always glad to see motorbikes, in case I need help."


Excellent thinking by this fellow... your closest friend is the guy out there weather he be on a moto, atv, or hiking!

Be nice friendly and say Hi or wave at everyone you see...
...your next move could be a fall or health problem and that guy you waved at just might be your ONLY ticket to help!!!!!!!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Sounds like you have a personal problem with anyone you don't think should be using your trail rockcrusher must be a certain fitness level must ride a bike you approve of, and your nice enough to be worried about a e rider being able to self rescue . Seems to be a lot of things you don't want on your trails all the trails you have built we should all ride at a speed you approve of is that just up hill speed?


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

uhoh7 said:


> You don't want to see pedelecs because they might pass you uphill? And you think the mtb rider is going to get his injured body out easier?
> 
> When I ride my motorbikes I am prepared to spend the night, and I'm armoured in case I fall, which happens extremely rarely. I carry enough first aid and if I have my KTM I could actually bring somebody out.
> 
> ...


Uh no I don't want to see motorcycles on my trails because they are motorcycles.

Until they are classified as not motorcycles then they are motorcycles. If I run into a dh bike on a decent while I'm ascending then it is all good because they are legally on the trail, unless they are not in which case whatever governing body that runs the trail will hear about it, but I've never been on a trail utilized by dh bikes that wasn't one way, and if I am running it backwards then I'm at fault and they should hear about be.

Until e-bikes and pedelecs are legally defined as legal trail users they are not, stop arguing that they belong just "because". No non-electric user is going to but that argument.

sent


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

uhoh7 said:


> You don't want to see pedelecs because they might pass you uphill? And you think the mtb rider is going to get his injured body out easier?
> 
> When I ride my motorbikes I am prepared to spend the night, and I'm armoured in case I fall, which happens extremely rarely. I carry enough first aid and if I have my KTM I could actually bring somebody out.
> 
> ...


I think some MTB advocates see motorized bikes as a separate entity than pedal powered bikes, which isn't unreasonable and so they don't feel like they should be advocating for them as if they are the same thing.

I personally don't think telling these advocates that their opinion of separating motorized from non motorized use is invalid is winning any allies. Especially not in the cases where they resort to personal insults. I just don't think telling them e-bikes are the same but better is working too well. I don't have a horse in the race, just my thoughts on the subject.

Futhermore, Zeiss lenses have more 3D pop than Leica lenses and...wait, what forum is this and what are we arguing about again?


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

rockcrusher said:


> See this is the issue: "we". Why should I fight to get you something I don't want to see on my trails?


Because to a large extent - we're all in this together.

Hikers, equestrians, trail runners, mountain bikers, E-MTB'ers, etc., etc.

Heck - I don't want to see equestrians on my trails, and I don't want to see runners/hikers (unless I'm the runner/hiker)... but I understand the value of having a larger constituency working together.

Barring objective environmental harm or unresolvable user conflicts - I want trails as "multi-use" as is possible... and it behooves all trail users and outdoors folk to compromise to avoid those unresolvable user conflicts.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

NEPMTBA said:


> Excellent thinking by this fellow... your closest friend is the guy out there weather he be on a moto, atv, or hiking!
> 
> Be nice friendly and say Hi or wave at everyone you see...
> ...your next move could be a fall or health problem and that guy you waved at just might be your ONLY ticket to help!!!!!!!


Very good advice. 

I know there are lots of people reading this thread who are as excited about a pedelec mtb as I am, but wonder: mtb hardcore will hate me and yell at me, where can I ride on nice trails?

Take a week and come to Sun Valley. We have an enormous motorized trail system which has been heavily rebuilt with mtbs in mind in the past 5 years or so. It does drive my moto buddies crazy when the new trails wander around to keep the pitch reasonable, but on a mtb it's fantastic.

I'm talking big big loops and many of them 


L1049566 by unoh7, on Flickr

There is a feeling among the moto crowd: shhhhhh. But I'm not worried, because the system is huge and 99.9% empty. Until hunting season. LOL

@form4speed: I do use the ZM18 and ZM 35/2, but most of my frontline glass is Leica.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yep, keep it on the motorized trails and we're totally good. I have zero problem with that, and if I lived somewhere with a lot of torn-up OHV terrain, I'd be on an e-bike to ride that stuff for sure. 

Sounds like the UP and Idaho are great future e-bike destinations. 

-Walt


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

I haven't seen any p bikes on this trail yet, and after riding it, I can see why. I mostly did it, "to be able to say I did it," this is one of the less steep and smoother parts. In most places it's real rocky and much steeper. This was at 7800'.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Exactly. A lot of moto trails aren't fun on a bike. But they might be fun on an assist bike. 

-Walt


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

portnuefpeddler said:


> I haven't seen any p bikes on this trail yet, and after riding it, I can see why.


That's weird because based on everything I've heard from all the electric bike advocates here I assumed those things weren't any faster or more powerful than a bicycle,


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

kuna said:


> So I can see there merit on a commuter bike to work, but why on an MTB? I see people mention that it helps the "old" guys keep riding, but I see a lot of "old" guys riding now, and they inspire me to keep riding. I see posts about getting the average "joe" of the couch, but these people take up riding, triathlons, and fun runs all the time. The bikes are 40+lbs, so if I have a 27lbs non-assist bike, doesn't that equate out? I see trails that are non-motorized and motorized and land managers are already banning these e-bikes; and the MTB community hasn't argued back on that. So again why an E-MTB?


To the point of the thread, I think your question doesn't have a factual answer other than it is a matter of personal opinion and personal preference. I ride an eMTB because it's FUN, that's it. There are no other reasons. (But many others will have many other reasons.) Specifically I have more fun on my ebike than I ever have on a bike in the 20 or so years I've been mountain biking. I find normal biking boring now in comparison. To echo a lot of the positive opinions here, unless you try one, its hard to understand.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's weird because based on everything I've heard from all the electric bike advocates here I assumed those things weren't any faster or more powerful than a bicycle,


JB, do I really need to point out the gamut of E-bikes? They range from 250w pedelecs, the sort I would like to see have access, possibly via permit, to normal mtb trails, up to 8000w electric motorcycles with no pedals at all. The latter would be nicer, perhaps, to share a trail with than a normal motorbike, since its quiet and so much lighter.

Even the pedelecs, I never heard any claims they were not more powerful than a bicycle. Obviously they are since they have a electric motor 

As to not being faster: uphill they will be faster, meaning they'll go slow, but not super slow. Downhill, most will tell you a good DH bike is faster because of the handling.

I don't go fast DH on anything, so for sure I'm not going to be very fast on my pedelec. It's going to be heavy too, because like Bikedriver, I'll need to carry that extra large smile


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

So many reasons I love my e bike it fits my life perfectly , I challenge anyone to ride one and not like it. Why a e mtb ? for trail use ? for me I can no longer ride a reg mt bike but you can not deny the fun factor , this form of mtb may change the future of MTBing and that is the reason some in the MTB community fear it this new low power e bike is slick well built and now very trail worthy .


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

How single speeders view e-bikes:


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

aborgman said:


> Barring objective harms to the trail or unresolvabe user conflicts - everyone should be allowed on every trail.


 Ok great if I lived in the unpopulated areas of Michigan or Idaho. Lets talk about what many people face in the crowded areas of CA or the mid atlantic or north east. Way too many people using a very limited and shrinking trail areas. If you are not from this area, you have no idea of the uphill battles fought to get some limited mt bike access. No idea. Some people actually hate us. Ever been yelled at, cussed, path blocked or threatened by some old hiker with a hiking stick? Been there. The pics I showed on the advocacy thread was a great re route for a washed out trail. Got thanks from the 4 hikers and 3 dog walkers out that day. Less than a week ago large piles of logs and sticks stacked across the trail in several places. WTF? That's just messed up. Uhoh7, you seem like a responsible rider and care for the outdoors, nice. But living in a very rural area is not what most of us face. You seem to have trail miles that outnumber users. Can't see any issues using any sort of ride responsibly. Different mind set out East here.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

"Ok great if I lived in the unpopulated areas of Michigan or Idaho."

I live in a town with a population density of ~4000/sq. mile.

You live in a town with a population density of ~1800/sq. mile.

Overall - Michigan is #18 in the country in population density. 64% of the states in the USA have lower population density.

"Some people actually hate us. Ever been yelled at, cussed, path blocked or threatened by some old hiker with a hiking stick?"

Yep.

I've also been yelled at, cussed, path blocked or threatened by mountain bikers while hiking.

I've also been yelled at, cussed, path blocked or threatened by equestrians while biking and hiking.

I've also been yelled at, cussed, path blocked or threatened by hikers when I'm hunting.

I've also been yelled at, cussed, path blocked or threatened by private landowners living next to public land when hunting, fishing, biking, hiking, and motorcycling.

I've also been yelled at, cussed, path blocked or threatened by random strangers on private land where I had permission to be on and they were trespassing... while doing all of those things.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

aborgman said:


> "Ok great if I lived in the unpopulated areas of Michigan or Idaho."
> 
> I live in a town with a population density of ~4000/sq. mile.
> 
> ...


Damn..... you get yelled at a lot. Yeah, I'm married too.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Harryman said:


> Damn..... you get yelled at a lot.


Eh... 30+ years roaming just about everywhere outdoors in Michigan will get you that.

Heck - I've even had people yell at me for fishing too close to their dock.



Harryman said:


> Yeah, I'm married too.


She always waits until I get home to yell...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

aborgman said:


> "Ok great if I lived in the unpopulated areas of Michigan or Idaho."
> 
> I live in a town with a population density of ~4000/sq. mile.
> 
> ...


Note to self: stay the **** out of Michigan.

Sounds like a whole lot of ********s in the woods out there. 
And people call us "M*******s". Geez.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> Note to self: stay the **** out of Michigan.
> 
> Sounds like a whole lot of ********s in the woods out there.
> And people call us "M*******s". Geez.


Eh... not really a whole lot - I've just spent lots and lots of time in the woods.

Hunting season is by far the worst, especially in areas of highly fragmented public/private land.


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

formula4speed said:


> I think some MTB advocates see motorized bikes as a separate entity than pedal powered bikes, which isn't unreasonable and so they don't feel like they should be advocating for them as if they are the same thing.


Maybe that's because one has a motor and one doesn't? That is the essential difference for me (yes I know there is a difference between e-bikes and electric-assist bikes). The majority of trails that I ride are designated for non-motorized use only and mountain bikers have worked hard to be allowed to access these trails. I think that allowing motorized bikes of any sort is a slippery slope and definitely has access implications for all mountain bikers. I have no problems at all with people riding E-bikes on trails designated for motorized use.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Note to self: stay the **** out of Michigan.


lol- That was my first thought (word for word) after I read that post!


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

leeboh said:


> Ok great if I lived in the unpopulated areas of Michigan or Idaho. Lets talk about what many people face in the crowded areas of CA or the mid atlantic or north east. Way too many people using a very limited and shrinking trail areas. If you are not from this area, you have no idea of the uphill battles fought to get some limited mt bike access. No idea. Some people actually hate us. Ever been yelled at, cussed, path blocked or threatened by some old hiker with a hiking stick? Been there. The pics I showed on the advocacy thread was a great re route for a washed out trail. Got thanks from the 4 hikers and 3 dog walkers out that day. Less than a week ago large piles of logs and sticks stacked across the trail in several places. WTF? That's just messed up. Uhoh7, you seem like a responsible rider and care for the outdoors, nice. But living in a very rural area is not what most of us face. You seem to have trail miles that outnumber users. Can't see any issues using any sort of ride responsibly. Different mind set out East here.


TY so much for the civil tone 

One common thread here is to assume everywhere is just like home. So somebody has really intense access issues and advocates policies which assume everybody has them.

On the other hand, here there are many trails and such bans seem extremely draconian.

If a trail is really very overcrowded then perhaps the new user class could be logically excluded, but even that seems premature considering nobody has ever seen an e-bike on a trail.

A trial period to access impact seems a bit more logical.

When you see that bone-headed piling of sticks in your way, you get an idea of how the owner of a 250w pedelec feels being excluded, except the difference in impact between hikers and mtb riders is great (for other users), and the difference between a mtb and a 250w pedelec has not been documented as far impact on other users is concerned. Compared to hiker v mtb, the mtb v 250w pedelec difference is nothing.

Listening to all the hostility some of you must endure does calm me, and I have to count my blessings. In 15 years of intense backcountry moto riding, only once was my path blocked, and one other time a horseman (my motor was off) screamed: "Are motorcyles legal on this trail?"

2 bad scenes and hundreds of friendly encounters with hikers, horsemen, mtb people and other moto riders.

Now, when I pass a hiker, I go very slow, often apologise for the noise, and tell them "just me" since I'm usually alone.

PS oh, one other time a pack of mtb guys grinding uphill at about 8mph refused to let me by for awhile, with some of them obviously hostile. And once a guy at a trail yelled at me: do you think it's 1970? 

Anyway, I'm sorry anybody has to deal with hostility in the backcountry. There is no excuse for it. If you want to complain, snap a pic and talk to the ranger. Yelling at the rider is so extreme.

I'm just also sorry to see that extreme attitude from some mtb folks about 250w pedelecs  But like you, I'll learn to deal with it 

Around here right now we have these terrible white blobs trying to block our access 


L1050101 by unoh7, on Flickr

I yell at them, but they say nothing 


L1050090 by unoh7, on Flickr


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