# To Be or Not to Be....Clipless...



## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

Hey guys,
I recently started mountain biking back in the spring, with my bf training me (he's a xc racer). I've been doing alright but I've been having a problem with my feet on the pedals. They keep dodging off the pedals here and there as I'm going along. And he says I can't seem to keep my feet centered on the pedals at all and he's not sure why. I'm a dancer so the whole balance and using the balls of my feet thing isn't an issue to me - but they just won't stay on the pedals! The only thing he could think of is that maybe it's something to do with how small my feet are, or something - but no clue. I just wear my old pair of cross trainers when I'm riding. I'm trying to learn without clipless but I have a biking friend who is telling me I should just start to learn on them anyways, get used to them, and solve my pedal problem with that. The bf, however, does not want me in clipless yet and says I'll just kill myself at this point with them. Does anyone have any suggestions? Or has someone else been through this?

All of the major problems I've had with riding have something to do with my size, too. It took forever to find a light/small enough frame that was still high-end to build a bike for me because of my size. My riding improved quickly but I struggled with fast mounting and dismounting. And the brakes are exhausting to cover because my fingers just barely reach them.
Anyone have small-people advice or stories on that note? haha.
btw, I'm new to the boards, cheers!


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## Tag1 (Mar 17, 2006)

Your boyfriend is probably right - if you're just starting out, stick with platforms for a while. Something that might help is to make sure the bottom of your shoes are as flat as possible. The more tread the worse. A flat shoe allows the pins which stick up out of your pedal to grip the bottom of your shoe as much as possible. 

Your brakes may have adjustable levers allowing you to bring them in closer. What kind are they? 

Also, what frame did you end up with?


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

Hmm I'm not sure, I don't have my bike with me since I'm back at home for the long weekend. But the frame is a 2000 Jamis Durango SX.

I will try to get a pair of flat shoes, that just might do it


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## mtb_mud_honey (May 31, 2005)

i second the advice for shoes with a flat sole (like a skateboard shoe).

another consideration is that when riding with flats, your feet will be in a slightly different position on the pedal vs. when you're clipped in. with flats, the pedal should sit centered under your foot; with clipless it will under the ball of your feet.

when descending, you can also help stick to your pedals by using your feet as a "wedge". drop the heel of your forward foot slightly and drop the toe of your rear foot slightly.

good luck and have fun!
pd


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

Do you have some background on a bike, like this is not your first year riding at all?

(oops, I am a guy in the women's area now)
Do I understand correctly that you keep falling off the pedals? You can find a good position for your foot when it is on the pedal?

I have been using bikes for transportation and exercise for ages and moving to clipless was not hard after a few months on a mountain bike. It made riding easier in some ways but I also ran into some mental blocks about crossing the more rocky sections of trail. That put me back on flat pedals for a couple of weeks.

Flat pedals are not all equal either. Some have pretty nasty spikes for traction (works well with skateboard style shoes). Sometimes those spikes can do nasty things to your shins if you fall off them in an unlucky way.



mtb_mud_honey said:


> with flats, the pedal should sit centered under your foot; with clipless it will under the ball of your feet.


I do not agree. With flat pedals, the pedal should still be near the ball of the foot.


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

perttime said:


> I do not agree.


I don't either.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Me three. You'll get arch fatigue by pedalling with the arch of your foot instead of letting the ball of your foot support you ( skeletal vs soft tissue support) Also, if you want to use your feet to bunny hop, manual lift the rear of the bike, or just support yourself out of the saddle by wieghting the pedals it's going to be much easier to weight the pedals with the ball of your foot. 

formica


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## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Just how small ARE your feet? What's your shoe size? Are we talking a 7 or a 4? Or maybe kids shoes?

I'd have to know how aggressive a rider you are trying to be before I can answer honestly - I became a MUCH different rider when I went clipless. I became much more agressive when I converted years ago because I wasn't coming off the pedals all the time and it's now at the point where I consider clipless pedals the same as my helmet - don't ride dirt without 'em. I went from a bumbling fool to a controlled fool. I fogot my shoes once earlier this year - I was a mess and went back to the car after a mere 100 yards of riding. :nono: 

Also, if your feet are coming off the pedals, would it not make some sense to be on clipless to help prevent this? New rider or not there is validity to this. There IS a possibility that by staying on platforms you're selling yourself short (as I pionted out above).

I've got a pair of oooooooold Shimano's with adjustable tension, work perfect - if you wanna get some shoes and try them? Ultimately it's the only way you'll know. I can bring them when we ride and you can try them whenever you get shoes.


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

AndrewTO said:


> Just how small ARE your feet? What's your shoe size? Are we talking a 7 or a 4? Or maybe kids shoes?
> 
> I'd have to know how aggressive a rider you are trying to be before I can answer honestly - I became a MUCH different rider when I went clipless. I became much more agressive when I converted years ago because I wasn't coming off the pedals all the time and it's now at the point where I consider clipless pedals the same as my helmet - don't ride dirt without 'em. I went from a bumbling fool to a controlled fool. I fogot my shoes once earlier this year - I was a mess and went back to the car after a mere 100 yards of riding. :nono:
> 
> ...


Some people rely very heavily on clipless, and come to think that it is the only way to go. I was late switching myself, but i still did some good riding, and even a few races on flats. Clipless IMO IS better, but one can still ride quite well on flats. You do lose a little speed in the end, and steep climbs are tougher, but i am just trying to say that flats can be ridden pretty well.


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

I'm 5 foot and my shoe size is about 5. Sometimes 6, depending on the make.
I can still buy kids shoes...

I'm completely new to riding. I didn't ride a bike very much as a kid. So I don't have any old habits.

Hmmm Okay, I think I'll buy a pair of flat sole shoes first, see how that works out. Then I'll get clipless - as soon as I don't seem like a tragic accident waiting to happen. I'm just wondering if clipless might help me improve faster, like suggested, especially when I think about how I learn. I usually get the harder stuff and am completely hopeless with the easier stuff. So while it might be thought that I can't control myself without clipless, it's not to assume that I'd kill myself with clipless, and in theory, I could potentially rock on with them.


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## mtb_mud_honey (May 31, 2005)

rkj__ said:


> I don't either.


On a climb, or mellow trail, yes, ball of your foot will work fine. In fact, yes, this is nice if you have a smooth mellow climb, as you'll get more power with each pedal stroke.

Just a little clarification, I didn't say "in the arch", I said "centered"...so a little behind the ball of your foot, but slightly forward of the arch. With the axle of the pedal centered on the ball of your foot you won't be able to grip the pedal very well, and its also potentially hard on your achilles tendon.

If you slide your feet forward a bit, you'll have a greater surface area of your foot on the pedal - a greater contact area will mean more traction, and hopefully less bouncing off the pedals (and when needed on a bumpy section of trail or in the air, you can curl your foot a bit around the pedal).

Also, take a look at any trials rider...Ryan Leech for example:

https://www.banffcentre.ca/mountainculture/images/fest04/leech.jpg

You shouldn't get arch fatigue with good supportive shoes or risk foot damage (yikes, I wouldn't be able to walk if that were the case!). :eekster:

One other consideration is the type of flat pedals you're using. The nasty looking ones with lots of spikes are definitely more grippy, though best worn with shin pads as someone else hinted at. 

pd

(I've been coaching mtb skills for 6 years, including teaching manuals, rear wheel lifts, etc...)


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

mtb_mud_honey said:


> You shouldn't get arch fatigue with good supportive shoes


Yes. Shoes that do not bend much are a must really, whatever the pedal style. If I ride for more than 15 minutes in soft shoes, my feet start aching.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I started 17 new teen riders this year*

after 2 months they were ALL on clipless pedals. Start on easy paths with these pedals and move to the more challenging stuff as you become more confident.

Note; you are obliged to have at least one or two embarrassing falls, generally in front of lots of people at rediculously low speeds where you lean the wrong way with your foot still clipped in. This is an SPD fall; a rite of passage.


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## Team Pro Laps (Jul 1, 2004)

*Terrified!*

I was VERY anxious about going to clipless pedals. Got some used Shimano SPDs and all went well. 
SPD's are very adjustable, and you can set them to a VERY easy retention setting, just like the bindings on skis can be set to release easily for beginners. You can be out in a flash. If you are hesitant to use them, you may want to get some old-style toe clips or 
Power Grips toe straps might be a good, low-tech compromise; cheap, too: 
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=1401&subcategory_ID=10045


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## mtbikegirl69 (Mar 22, 2005)

I started with those toe clips where you just slip your foot in. That worked for a while until I started riding in more rocky areas. (racked myself BAD and that was it for non-clipless)
Then when I got clipless...I went WAY backward in my technical riding because I was nervous.

I suggest you get clipless now and get comfortable with them as you learn your skills.

Maybe get the pedals that are flat on one side and clip in on the other. (???)
Not sure what company makes them.

Stripes knows...maybe she'll post here.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

> Maybe get the pedals that are flat on one side and clip in on the other.


Mmm, maybe not. The problem with the single sided pedals is that they are unbalanced, and tend to rotate. It's a given that which ever side you want to be on, the OTHER side will be up and you'll need to take a few sec to flip it around with your toe. Just like how toe clips unbalance the pedals.

But, there are some good clip flat combos that have a clip on both sides, and a wide enough platform that you can just stand on if you want.

~formica


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

formica said:



> Mmm, maybe not. The problem with the single sided pedals is that they are unbalanced, and tend to rotate. It's a given that which ever side you want to be on, the OTHER side will be up and you'll need to take a few sec to flip it around with your toe. Just like how toe clips unbalance the pedals.
> 
> But, there are some good clip flat combos that have a clip on both sides, and a wide enough platform that you can just stand on if you want.
> 
> ~formica


Agreed - I would NOT want those. Get something with a nice platform around the clipless pedal and you can ride no problem if you're not clipped in. It's not very difficult at all to get unclipped when you need to - clipping back in is the trickier part. Why make it worse with an unbalanced pedal that you have to mess with to get it on to the right side?

Mallet C's are my personal preference, but there are plenty of SPD clipless platforms out there too.

I'd go clipless early. I don't see any reason why not to - it's a pretty quick transition and you might as well learn while clipped in! The performance benefit while climbing is really pretty dramatic, and I think they are much safer than any power strap system that you could get stuck in.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

yep, with a combo pedal like this and some flattish shoes with clips you can't go wrong.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Ther are lots of ways to transition slowly.*

And most people hesitate as the mechanical attachment of feet to a machine you may have to leave behind is counter-intuitive. It all ends up working, though. I would skip the platform SPDs. They are a mental crutch but that in itself may be useful to you. Once you find where your feet need to go you never need a platform.

I just did an exercise with a few of my riders where we did starts on a very steep and loose grade. I realized that this is something that we don't often do except as the result of a disappointing dab or crash so it has bad connotations. As such, riders are often horrible at this. So we did this all the way up a 400 foot climb. Riders tend to make certain kinds of mistakes and it just takes it all out of you, just as missing a move or dabbing on a patch of ground repeatedly does when you try it for the 4th or 5th time.

Anyhow, the most prevalent mistake is that, while one starts with the power foot clipped at the 2 o'clock position, after the first push and 1/2 stroke there is an obsession with getting the other footclipped in. There is lots of looking down at the foot, struggling, wiggling and clattering around the pedal, or that vacant concentrated, consternated look you have when you try to do something behind your back, neither of which serves success. Unless one is very lucky or very good, it is generally missed and any momentum is lost and you dab.

The solution is to push off, put in your 1/2 power stroke and land you other foot on the other pedal just about anywhere, arch, toe, heel, enough to get some push on that half of the stroke, keeping momentum. By that time your power foot has its' second turn imparting more momentum and then comes the unclipped foot. Usually by the first full cycle or the second you are moving well and upright and have a spin going and your unclipped foot has the feel for the spin and will soon find the pedal/clip naturally. What is done here is to seperate and prioritize the two functions of getting going and getting clipped in. Doing the former is simplest and facilitates the latter.

It was cool to see some of the kids look up and smile. They thought you had to be all clipped in right away, like it was some kinda law. We are all often trapped by assumptions we make. The funny thing is that for this kind of start you don't need a platform. In fact you could do this on a bare spindle and still get going; you hit the target with the middle of your foot, how hard is that? The platform is a mental crutch. One wonders where we get these ideas but, well, there they are until we realize we can toss them aside.

I ride with about 50-60 different mtb'ers and platform SPD is used by a handfull. Many of them come from BMX or Downhill and some just learn on them and never give them up. It works for them in spite of their additional weight and mud-gathering ability. Whichever you choose, start gradually on reliable terrain and practice. It will take your riding to another level.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I ride with about 50-60 different mtb'ers and platform SPD is used by a handfull. Many of them come from BMX or Downhill and some just learn on them and never give them up. It works for them in spite of their additional weight and mud-gathering ability. Whichever you choose, start gradually on reliable terrain and practice. It will take your riding to another level.


Well that's true. I race DH and can't see using anything other than a platform clipless type pedal unless I was going to try XC racing or something. It would be too much of a hassle to switch pedals ride to ride to something smaller for the non-technical rides that I do - plus we don't have any mud here and I use a 7" travel bike for XC, so pedal weight isn't much of a concern.

I think part of it depends on where you want to go with your riding. If you're aiming towards XC, racing, etc. - then a regular clipless pedal is fine. If you're interested in more technical riding, go with a clipless platform pedal. Either way you can always switch - once you're used to the release mechanism, I don't think switching pedal to pedal (platform clipless to regular clipless) is difficult at all - it would only be an issue if you're on terrain that you're not comfortable on.


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

stripes said:


> The better version of these are the M647s. They have a plastic cage, but at least the cleat releases in the mud (these did not for me).


True, the old style SPDs don't work great in the mud. The newer pedal design as seen on the M647s does shed mud significantly better.


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## CycleMainiac (Jan 12, 2004)

formica said:


> yep, with a combo pedal like this and some flattish shoes with clips you can't go wrong.


I'm also a fan of these for first time clipless riders. They provide the security of a good platform that your feet/shoes will NOT slip off of when things a so sketchy you don't want to be clipped in.

For 80% of the time you can stay clipped and only unclip when feeling iffy. As you gain experience and confidence, your time unclipped will disappear.


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## dHarriet (Sep 26, 2005)

i think that your best bet is to go clipless...choosing pedals that are appropriate for your riding style (as already stated). however, you might as well be learning how to use the pedals that you're going to eventually use, while you're learning your skills. when i started mountain biking, i was advised to get the pedals and shoes when i got my bike...and it was really good advice...sure i fell...but i was learning...so i was going to fall anyway...at least this way i never had to make the transition from one type of pedal to another...


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

rkj__ said:


> True, the old style SPDs don't work great in the mud. The newer pedal design as seen on the M647s does shed mud significantly better.


If mud is an issue, Crank Brothers pedals are good for that. I live in the desert and just like the feel and float, but with the open center, mud can fall right through instead of getting jammed up. (I did ride in mud once last year and they worked...)

And while maybe Mallets are overkill if you're not on the DH/FR end of the spectrum, Candies or Smarties would work.


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## DLd (Feb 15, 2005)

*one thing to add*

There's been a lot of good advice here, the one thing I think I can add is when you go clipless, and it sounds like you're ready as long as you follow this advice, is just practice on them a lot before you go on a technical trail. Obviously just riding a long distance in them, like a road ride, doesn't do much for getting you used to the important aspect, which is being able to clip-in/clip-out, so just ride around your block, clipping in and clipping out, heck, you can even be leaning against a counter in your kitchen on your bike clipping in and clipping out, you just want to get it into your muscle memory and make it a habit, so that the natural thing to do when you want to take you're foot off the pedal is the unclipping, twisting out your heel action, instead of the lifting your foot up off the pedal action (that won't work with clipless . That's the most important thing, so that when you stall on some climb, and you're going to put your feet down, and you're not thinking about your pedals 'cause you were concentrating on the climb, you're not trying to pull your feet up, and just falling over (of course, doing this once or twice does hasten your progress up the learning curve tremendously  ). Practicing getting in also makes it easier to get started on steep climbs, or to get started again on a steep downhill, if you can get clipped in or pretty close right away, if you're close you'll tend to just clip in naturally after one or two pedal strokes. Good luck.

don


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## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

I just thought I would pop back on here quickly with some info.

I had the pleasant opportunity to ride with Geo last week and took a look at what she's using. She's on a pair of Wellgo flats - the good one's with the cheese-and-shin grater screws sticking out of them. For footwear she's got a pair of runners, maybe crosstrainers, not sure - hard sole, very firm durometer tread. Not the best combo when looking for security of any kind.

I can see why she doesn't have great success with her combo. Hopefully she reads up on the good advice and learns. :thumbsup: 


On related note - now I see what I was missing all those years with crappy flats. Wish I had a pair of good one's eon's ago. (shrug) Oh well - viva clipless! :thumbsup:


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## Hoochie Koo (Jun 13, 2006)

From Andrew's description of your pedals, they must have enough 'friction' to keep you on. And, the shoes aren't that important unless your feet are starting to feel it/light up.

About two weeks ago I switched from clipless to flats, not without incident. To do it, imagine wedging yourself between the bars and the pedals, that is the ideal position for staying on the bike. Unfortunately, while hitting downs, and even on level ground you need to get your weight back, behind the bike. To do that you just have to get your ankles down, below the pedal, and grind. 

One cool thing I found, was having one foot angled for the downhill, and another just the opposite (with toes down, I think someone mentioned that above and was quickly discounted). This is good for cooking across the rolling stuff.

If you can learn on flats, you will be way faster on clipless, because you learn to adapt to the trail, pumping and shifting around and all. I found I have to really use the upper body and twist the handles to keep on when hucking.

Watch out for those SPD's, I think you can rearrange those letters into POS, they come off at the worst of times -> Mallet or Time Z-control if you want to clip in.

Good luck, flats ROCK.


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

Thanks guys!
I'm going to keep trudging away with my flats. I think it's true, when I DO move to clipless, I'll be a lot stronger with my form after learning on flats.


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