# Is IMBA pretty much a dead horse at this point?



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Seems between the insurance issue, now the raised prices, chapters finding now with no insurance their funds are low, what is the bottom line?

Our group has not given up on IMBA yet, probably on account of still sorting out the mess with insurance.

I ask, based on part of our landowner agreement involves being a part of a larger organization.

If IMBA is no longer the "one", who is or should we just go it alone on a local level if possible?

PK


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## cglasford (Sep 26, 2011)

PMK said:


> Seems between the insurance issue, now the raised prices, chapters finding now with no insurance their funds are low, what is the bottom line?
> 
> Our group has not given up on IMBA yet, probably on account of still sorting out the mess with insurance.
> 
> ...


To answer the first question... no. No way. What other organization is going to speak for land access for MTB. Yes we could probably try locally but landmanagers where I live, mn, like to know we are biggest than just our club, Morc.

And correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Imba just start offering insurance a year or two ago? Or maybe that was just our club.... and you still had to pay it and split your dues... correct? I just attended our trail steward/dirt boss annual summit and they told us they had insurance. They said it only cost a little bit more and was double the coverage.... so I'm not sure


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

cglasford said:


> To answer the first question... no. No way. What other organization is going to speak for land access for MTB. Yes we could probably try locally but landmanagers where I live, mn, like to know we are biggest than just our club, Morc.
> 
> And correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Imba just start offering insurance a year or two ago? Or maybe that was just our club.... and you still had to pay it and split your dues... correct? I just attended our trail steward/dirt boss annual summit and they told us they had insurance. They said it only cost a little bit more and was double the coverage.... so I'm not sure


We have had IMBA affiliated insurance since 2006. Our group is a club, not a chapter. The money we take in is not distributed to IMBA other than club renewal.

Overall, IMBA directly has provided nothing, and we don't ask.

So in the interest of moving forward, without becoming a chapter, does anyone know options of other organizations or means to make it happen.

How is SORBA fairing with all this?

PK


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## cglasford (Sep 26, 2011)

I believe sorba just hired a full time staffer with Imba, if that's the case can't see it as too negative. We did that this last year as well as two or three other clubs or chapters I guess... 
I just remember our board saying it wasn't that big of a deal about the insurance for our club since we only had it a year or two and we went back to our old provider and got more insurance. I'm guessing it does negatively affect a lot of clubs from reading the last few threads on it. I wish them the best and hope it doesn't hurt them too bad. I think Imba will sort this out eventually. 
I guess I just don't see another option for a national group to support MTB.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

IMBA will endure and still provide many of the things people value. In the short term, though, many will look a little closer at the deal.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

This remains to be see. I suspect upper level staff will change over this insurance um, "issue", starting at the top. What happens next with a new head of IMBA is unknown. IMBA has been really quiet for some time, except for the Twitter / Facebook fluff.


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

IMBA's going to hang in there for a bit longer. 

What with the chapter program continuing to expand; a very busy calendar of Trail Solutions projects; what looks to be the biggest and most fun world summit gathering yet on tap this summer; support from individuals, supporting organizations and companies at an all-time high; full-time professional advocates at work in nine regions across the U.S.; IMBA Europe gaining momentum quickly; a new book about bike parks on the way; an exciting mapping program; and hundreds of affiliated chapters, clubs and volunteers leading more than 700,000 hours of volunteer stewardship efforts last year, we have not yet thrown in the towel. 

But you can continue to focus exclusively on the insurance issue if you like.


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Hey -- look! More good news.

https://www.imba.com/news/oc-parks

In California, Orange County Parks (OC Parks) has been selected to receive up to $10,000 in assistance through IMBA's Bike Park Initiative to develop new bike facilities at Ted Craig Regional Park, in Fullerton. The facility will also receive a further $10,000 through a matching grant from OC Parks. Along with OC Parks, key partners in this initiative includes local IMBA chapter SHARE-MTB and Jax Bicycle Center, a chain of eight bicycle retail outlets throughout southern California.

"OC Parks is very pleased to continue our collaboration with IMBA on planning and development of biking amenities in Orange County's regional parks with this design effort," said Stacy Blackwood, Director Orange County Parks. "Our community partners, including SHARE Mountain Bike Club, Laguna Canyon Foundation, Irvine Ranch Conservancy, and many others, are engaged with OC Parks in the creation of great biking experiences in our parks and wildlands, balanced with careful stewardship of those natural resources. We anticipate that projects like this will encourage riders of all ages to enjoy healthy activity outdoors and engender a lasting appreciation for the open spaces of Orange County. "

The Bike Park Initiative is an IMBA-led project designed to foster the development of world-class bike park facilities across the United States. Developed in partnership with the SRAM Cycling Fund and People for Bikes, the Bike Park Initiative identifies promising local government agencies and provides them with strategic and technical assistance to create outstanding bike parks, including progressive jump lines, skills areas and pumptracks.

The Bike Park Initiative will provide up to $10,000 in planning and design services, which will be matched by cash from OC Parks. The total of $20,000 will be used to create a detailed site plan and report for the proposed bike park at Ted Craig Regional Park. The funds will also be used to advise the applicant on the unique aspects of constructing and maintaining a bike park, including working with the local mountain bicycling community. The intent of this effort is to get high-quality projects initiated through professional design assistance so that the applicant, in conjunction with IMBA's advocacy network, can quickly proceed through permitting and toward construction. Ted Craig Regional Park is one of four sites that were assessed by Trail Specialists from the IMBA Trail Solutions program in fall 2013, with OC Parks staff narrowing in on this location for a more detailed design.

"We have been working collaboratively on this project for over 18 months, including meetings with OC Parks staff, Dave Hanson from Jax Bicycle Center, and board members from SHARE-MTB," said Patrick Kell, IMBA Southwest Regional Director. "Dave at Jax Bicycle Center has been pivotal in this process and was the catalyst who initially pulled all of the stakeholders together. Also, OC Parks staff have been very receptive to this concept, and thoughtful in their management of public recreational land, and SHARE-MTB have set a great example of how volunteer mountain bike advocates should work cooperatively with land managers. This process exemplifies quality mountain bike advocacy in action. We are very excited to see this project move forward and see a lot of potential for this and other bike parks within easy reach of such huge populations."


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Good question, insguy2 -- I haven't heard if that review is complete. I'll see what I can find out and share whatever I can.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Even with the laundry list of IMBA activities, insurance may be the most important fundamental factor in the execution of a clubs advocacy mission. In many cases it stops them dead. And the short warning from IMBA...well enough of that. However, "But you can continue to focus exclusively on the insurance issue if you like" seems a like spin, or sarcasm as worst. It is, at least, dismissive of concerns and issues that are very real to a great many people.

It smacks of an desire to "move forward" and "get beyond this" which I have seen Presidents and Businesses try and do when they want to get out of the spot light. And it is usually done before the time is right. It challenges a spirit of support which may be the hardest hit that IMBA takes in this whole event. It is worse than a no-apology apology.

Mark, you should have stopped while you were ahead. This will pass when it passes.

The IMBA Insurance Collapse revealed many things. Firstly, it reveals what a value the insurance program feature was both as a financial bargain (which turned out to be unsustainable), and a convenience (which was never understood.) The financial value was expressed when clubs had to go out and price the coverage themselves. The convenience value was demonstrated by the thousands of hours different clubs went through to find, vet, and select other providers. There was a steep learning curve and bit of reinventing the wheel, in a lot of different situations, for many, many folks. Neither of these was appreciated until coverage disappeared.

Second, it revealed how IMBA manages failures (and this _was_ a failure) in their system. I think it unrealistic to expect that such a group be prepared for such a contingency. Yet there are features which might want some attention. There are bad tastes in mouths, to be sure. That said, I am sure that IMBA will value this experience determine policies which reflect what they have learned about their organization and the values of their subsidiary groups when push comes to shove. That too could not be revealed until things failed.

We are all in this together. And while we value all of our mountain bike friends, the folks who show up to do the real front-lines work deserve our best efforts. That goes for everyone.


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Mike, naming a thread "Is IMBA pretty much a dead horse at this point" invites a testy response. 

Yes, there are lessons learned. But insurance never has been or will be the defining mission for IMBA. 

When you write this: 

"We are all in this together. And while we value all of our mountain bike friends, the folks who show up to do the real front-lines work deserve our best efforts. That goes for everyone."

... I think you know that the people who work at IMBA are also "on the front lines" and consider ourselves part of the "we are all in this together" collective. That's not the vibe that I got, however, from reading the thread's title and the post that went along with it. If my reply was a bit huffy, please pardon me.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Mark E said:


> Mike, naming a thread "Is IMBA pretty much a dead horse at this point" invites a testy response.
> 
> Yes, there are lessons learned. But insurance never has been or will be the defining mission for IMBA.
> 
> ...


I think that the IP's question is a good one; a question about context from someone who may not know a great deal about how things work. _That's_ why you ask the question.

Mark; huffy is real. And so is the dynamic of the community and it needs to play out and be hammered out. It is only our respect for each other, whether we agree or not, that makes the result have real value. "We are all in this together" means just what is says.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

I wanted to step back in and clarify something. Prior to the current situation, I was in discussions with IMBA about the possibility of a very large trail solutions project with a respectable amount of good exposure and value.

Since the situation trickled with insurance, then blame by some onto landmanagers for dealing in what this forum deems as unrealistic agreements where the landmanagers are held harmless (but in 2006 it was take it or leave it).

So now as still an IMBA club, not chapter, which we declined many years ago as the value gained was a fraction of the value realized. We have heard the words about Chapter, Chapter, Chapter, during discussions about the new project.

Having been an early adopter of one of the more poorly worded contracts between the landmanager, we are now doing the homework to get this changed because the insurance debacle opened that door.

I presented the question in the OP to gather facts about what other groups are doing. We sit in waiting to see where the possible new agreement leads, whether it will require outside insurance or not, our quotes on insurance have been marginally ok, but restrictive. As for the project, if IMBA is squirming, myself and others would prefer to avoid partnering with them for several reasons. First, if IMBA calls it quits part way in, we are too small to complete the job alone. Second if IMBA fails, the monies raised may never be recouped, and we are not talking a small venture here.

We as a club, have cancelled all trail maintenance on account of insurance, but was legally obligated to stop since our contract mandated insurance.

Our contract also had an item stating we be a part of IMBA. We want to change this to something such as a large nationally recognized organization. Thus the reason I had asked about other options.

Overall, in the beginning, we had McKay insurance. They were, in our opinion good to us, and explained each and every question during the years we had them. We even bought additional coverage which may prove a good move. 

The value we got from IMBA had several tiers, first was the tie to a national organization. Second was they did make the insurance part very difficut to not be a part of, though it did change as time passed, until the end. Third was the ability to present IMBA published data as a form of approved data when requests for trail changes were submitted.

I want to lean back towards the discussions we were in with IMBA prior to the insurance situation. They were proposing a very expensive informal estimate. We asked to proceed in what efforts would be required from us, IMBA and other groups (the big money) to blend this together and move forward. As of today, without us cutting off the deal, we have had no replys or responses from IMBA since several weeks prior to the insurance failure. Again, another reason to ask an outside source over calling IMBA to hear all is well. What is going on with other groups? Simple question to help us focus better.

Our group has worked closely to see each small crisis and make plans for a brighter and stronger future. We are just looking at option if IMBA should or should not be a part of our future. And if not, who do we partner with?

PK


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## indytrekracer (Feb 13, 2004)

IMBA may be asking the same questions about your Club. You want them to commit resources and staff time towards a big project, yet you are not interested in becoming a chapter. Those of us how have become Chapters are helping to fund the staff whose time you want to use. If IMBA has similar opportunities with its chapters and has limited resources to support every possible project, why would they support your project over that of a Chapter.

HMBA is a chapter. We just partnered with IMBA to hire a paid staff person that is split between HMBA and the IMBA region. This is already very helpful to our organization and important to ensure our long term sustainability.

I am in communication with our IMBA rep multiple times per week. If there is some thing we need from IMBA he or our executive director make it happen.

Keep in mind that the IMBA regional program and the Chapter 60/40 split came about because many clubs were asking for dedicated State/Regional Staff. Those staff cost money and the source of that budget is partly from the 60/40 split. We are perfectly fine with our 40% covering insurance, in return for a Regional Director and then infrastructure to hire a staff person (cost split between HMBA and IMBA).

Keep in mind that you get to keep 100% of donations. So put a little effort on getting your members to donate directly to your Chapter. Put on a couple fund raising events. 

IMBA just like every local group, can't possible make everyone happy. Your club likely has local riders who are dissenters for your club. We just did a membership survey and had riders upset that we don't build enough expert trails, and others upset that we don't build more beginner trails. IMBA has to provide a model that will support the majority of local organizations. There will be some that for local/political/philosophical reasons don't work well with IMBA. There are organizations who have gone their own route and been successful. 

Also like local clubs, IMBA isn't perfect. I doubt there are many Chapter leaders who are not a upset about how insurance played out, and I expect to that there will be a lot of discussion about Insurance at the IMBA Summit.

This doesn't mean that our chapter or other chapters don't see areas where IMBA can improve. We work with our Regional Directors and will be at the IMBA summit and work to drive the changes needed for IMBA to better serve our chapters.


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

Options:

In the trail consulting/design/construction world there are 80+ member companies within the Professional Trail Builders Association. trailbuilders.org We work as advocates regularly to help get projects running and off the ground and have a number of people that specialize in the mountain bike trail market. In fact many of them have been used as IMBA subcontractors to create some of the largest and most noted trail systems in the country as well as operated outside the realm of IMBA entirely. 

Park City, Utah is a great example of how a community can embrace mountain bikers and see benefits to everyone. My company, Alpine Trails, and the local non profits including Mountain Trails Foundation worked closely with Park City riders and community leaders to make this happen. 

Funding/Large Scale Support: Utilizing local community foundations tends to work well as you have support from the "Community At-large". These organizations are typically made up of some of the most influential folks around. There are also great community health foundations that can quickly support healthy outdoor initiatives. 

National Advocacy: There are other organizations out there quietly doing great work. Jenn Dice who helped create some of the large scale national relationships with folks in Washington is now working for Bikes Belong/People for Bikes and I'm sure would welcome any support to that organization to get more access to all types of riding. I have utilized some of their grant programs and other assets to create bike parks and skills areas around the country. There are also other national groups that support the activities we love like: League of American Bicyclists, Safe Routes to School, The Active Transportation Alliance.

There are also great State Organizations, which is the decision level for a lot of major land management agencies. Organizations like Trails Utah, the Texas Bicycle Coalition and Bicycle Alliance of Minnesota. Many of these organizations are multi tiered and do more than JUST mountain bike advocacy which can help leverage land managers as well because it shows a more diverse group interested in the project. 

I hope these suggestions help you with your projects and club health. Also as someone who has used McKay for a number of Insurance needs I would recommend everyone give them a call for your insurance needs as well.

Ben


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Indytrekracer and redriderbb

Thanks for your input. 

Inregards to how indytrekracer is involved so deep with IMBA and to be explained that IMBA may have no interest in this project may be correct, but is highly unlikely. This is not small dollar project, has ties to many other for profit organizaations, and has some basis as not your average here it is MTB trail. The place does have history within the mtb community. IMBA was not afraid to send a price for just a quote with many zeros at the end.

In regards to how many other trail groups are there, IMBA trail solutions got first shot based on many factors. Lowest price was not one. Also, IMBA does bring a name to the table, making some hoops possibly easier to jump through.

As for donations, advocacy and so forth. We do just fine as is.

At this point, becoming an IMBA chapter would be a hard sell after some of the recent stuff we are dealing with.

So again, is there another organization available?

PK


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

The bike advocacy universe is a small one. Your options were spelled out to you. IMBA may have its limitations and imperfections, but it's the best we have when it comes to the work we do.

The help you receive (in any situation) often depends on the questions you ask, and the way you ask them. Building relationships with the people who are in a position to help directly, or advocate for you at a higher level does wonders, too. What kinds of relationships do you have with the IMBA staffers that might help (local/regional/national)? You say they haven't provided help, so you don't ask. How is anyone going to provide help if they don't know what you need in the first place? These questions really don't matter if you're a club/chapter. 

It looks to me like the crappy contract you're in is an entirely different situation. When it comes down to it, though, in 2006, everybody took what they were offered or they got nothing. In 2014, things are different and now as a user group, we have more power to negotiate better deals, and many clubs are doing just that. If IMBA does nothing else for you except provide you with additional legitimacy/power through association, enabling you to negotiate a better deal with the land manager, is it not worth it? Yeah, that's a difficult benefit to quantify, but if it's what you need most....?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks NateHawk, post as you see fit, but the fact is, this is not really about our agreement with the landmanager, nor is it about insurance. The bottom line here is, we have presented a project to IMBA that will generate a lot of money and good PR for IMBA. This was presented prior to the ending of the insurance. They were interested, but always slow to get back and even required many attempts at recontacting them to keep the ball rolling. 

Now, they are past the insurance concern, yet we have no replies from IMBA again.

We have done the steps we needed up to this point. IMBA is not providing a good feeling to us that they are capable or up to the task.

So as I started this topic, are they a dead horse and who else might be a good working partner on this large project? 

Club or Chapter should not even be a concern. We will survive the insurance and landmanager stuff on our own. 

In simple terms, this seems to be a situation of letting your customer service experience guide where you spend your money. You would not buy dinner in an expensive restaurant that treats you with poor service and a bad attitude. Same for how we may chose our partners for this project.

If there is no other group besides IMBA, then we can do our best at the local level and hire a trail building company to accomplish the tasks. The worse that happens is we fail. 

PK


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## 480rider (Jul 21, 2008)

The Professional Trailbuilders Association (trailbuilders.org) is an international trade association of specialty trail contractors. Its 80+ members include dedicated specialty advocates, planners, designers, builders, maintainers, and project managers. Many are more experienced, higher quality, and lower cost alternatives to IMBA and its Trail Solutions for-profit/non-profit sub-company. Several PTBA member companies have built some -- or most -- of the projects IMBA takes credit for, and a few of those companies have provided training to Trail Solutions, as well as content to IMBA's books. If you like IMBA/TS for its experience and reputation, then consider spending less and getting more by hiring one of those who helped create TS. And if you've been less than satisfied with IMBA/TS, the PTBA is a great resource for better, more responsive trail professionals.

In sum, if individual PTBA members/companies can't help you, the organization itself likely can. You can post your project directly on their website (follow the links to "post your project here"), or contact their Executive Director (his contact info is on the site) for help with advocacy and planning efforts.

You DO have other options -- no need to settle for less.


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

PMK, you wrote this:

"... we have presented a project to IMBA that will generate a lot of money and good PR for IMBA. This was presented prior to the ending of the insurance. They were interested, but always slow to get back and even required many attempts at recontacting them to keep the ball rolling. Now, they are past the insurance concern, yet we have no replies from IMBA again."

I can help check on the status of your request for assistance -- what is the name of the project? It sounds like Trail Solutions may have performed an assessment -- is that correct?

It also sounds like the ideal national advocacy group for you would require little commitment from your local group to the national body, financially or otherwise. The national body would represent your group on national and local advocacy projects. It would provide trail building support. It would provide benefits, including an effective insurance program, and would do so regardless of whether the local group wanted to enter the chapter program. It would provide friendly customer service and be responsive to your group's needs, but only if asked. 

Does that sound right?


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

No doubt, the PTBA has a lot of very talented trail builders for hire. How many of them would you say gained their expertise in mountain bike trail building while working for IMBA?


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## Balto78 (Oct 1, 2013)

Mark E said:


> It also sounds like the ideal national advocacy group for you would require little commitment from your local group to the national body, financially or otherwise. The national body would represent your group on national and local advocacy projects. It would provide trail building support. It would provide benefits, including an effective insurance program, and would do so regardless of whether the local group wanted to enter the chapter program. It would provide friendly customer service and be responsive to your group's needs, but only if asked.
> 
> Does that sound right?


I'm not sure if this part of your post is really helping your cause. You may be right (I don't have the facts to form an informed opinion), but as an outside observer, the snarkiness is unappealing regardless of the merits of your position.


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

I'm not being all that snarky. It's a reasonable interpretation of PMK's post, no?

Also, many posters in this forum have said that they would like to hear from IMBA, in the form of an authentic voice from someone in the organization. I'm trying to fill that role -- anyone who knows me can tell you that I can be a snarky bastard from time to time.


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## Balto78 (Oct 1, 2013)

Mark E said:


> I'm not being all that snarky. It's a reasonable interpretation of PMK's post, no?
> 
> Also, many posters in this forum have said that they would like to hear from IMBA, in the form of an authentic voice from someone in the organization. I'm trying to fill that role -- anyone who knows me can tell you that I can be a snarky bastard from time to time.


Whatever works for you, I'm not trying to insert myself into this debate or take sides. I wish IMBA and all other mtb organizations well.


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## Woodman (Mar 12, 2006)

Yes, Mark there are a few professional trail contractors whom formally worked for IMBA before going out on their own and forming companies and becoming PTBA members. While those folks were working for IMBA (and also true for many curent Trail Solutions staff), they interacted with and were influenced by many PTBA members, and local semi-pro builders. As was noted by another poster, the credits of the 2 IMBA Books include as many non IMBA staffers as in house IMBA folks. I am one of those PTBA members who contributed to both books, and helped trained almost all IMBA Trail Care Crew staff members and many of the early TS staff.

Look no further than Coldwater AL (one of IMBA's ride centers) to find a project trail system built by many. Though IMBA TS had the contract from the state, there have been many PTBA members who have sub-contracted much of the work on that new trail system.

Even the IMBA Model Trails Program recognizes the great work by other PTBA members with Park City being a Gold level Ride Center (the only Gold award). IMBA Trail Solutions did not built the great riding in Park City, they did not build any trail in that area. Most trails in PC area were built by a PTBA member Alpine Trails.

If the OP has reached out to IMBA (TS staff likely) and not gotten the response he is due from a pure customer service standpoint, it is time for him to go shopping and find a contractor that will return phone calls. He is not the first I have heard of with this concern. PMK, I would be happy to speak to you on your trail needs and can help find the team of builders you need to get your project done. PTBA members offer a nationally recognized membership (and strict membership application process), and many do indeed specialize in bike parks or mountain bike specific trail. One member comes to mind, Trail Dynamics. TD (I was formally the President, but am now semi-retired) has done extensive work in Tally Fl for the City of Tally in Tom Brown Park, Magnolia, Cadillac and Redbug Trails and for the USFS at Munson Hills. East Cadillac Mountain Bike Trail - City of Tallahassee - YouTube

Woody Keen- Trail Wisdom



Mark E said:


> No doubt, the PTBA has a lot of very talented trail builders for hire. How many of them would you say gained their expertise in mountain bike trail building while working for IMBA?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Mark E said:


> PMK, you wrote this:
> 
> "... we have presented a project to IMBA that will generate a lot of money and good PR for IMBA. This was presented prior to the ending of the insurance. They were interested, but always slow to get back and even required many attempts at recontacting them to keep the ball rolling. Now, they are past the insurance concern, yet we have no replies from IMBA again."
> 
> ...


Yes Mark what you replied with is accurate. The lack of dialogue from IMBA is what prompted me to start this topic.

At this point, I want to discuss the project with PTBA, but do appreciate the offer to move this forward with IMBA.

PK


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## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

No to beat a dead horse, but communications seems to be a major problem these days with IMBA. There's a knows situation with IMBA Canada since last year and for almost 4 months, I've been trying to get an update on the situation. The best I got is "well, it's canadian's fault and we don't give a f*ck" from head of IMBA. Not a good way to convince me to renew my corporate membership.

I'm sold on IMBA, but acting like a jerk is not a good way to maintain relationship in this small industry.


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Okay -- good luck with your project!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Mark E said:


> Okay -- good luck with your project!


Mark, don't get worked up over any of this. Like buying a car, there is no harm in shopping around. I don't hold a grudge against IMBA over this. Just need to shop a bit more with another company or even several.

I went to IMBA first, knowing the total value this could have beyond the dollars. The situation now leads me to do more research of others that may take a different or better approach. Nothing more nothing less. Who knows, maybe it will wind up with IMBA, or possibly the project will be cost prohibitive. As I have explained to others over the years, some trail projects are like a granny gear climb. They take time to get there and sometimes a lot of effort. PK


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

I'd like to comment on the remark about it not being IMBAs mission to provide insurance. That insurance, in the eyes of many chapters, was a MAJOR factor playing into the choice to become an IMBA chapter in the first place. The loss of that insurance represents a significant loss of value to individual chapters, as well as an increased workload to the individual chapter leaders. 

It doesn't matter what your mission statement says. Your customers, or members, or whatever you wish to call them, valued that product/service greatly. If you are to represent mountain bikers, and take dues from members, then you need to provide what is important to THEM, not what some focus group decided sounded catchy as your 'mission'. 

Your chapters value insurance. If you claim to represent them, yet do not see meeting their needs as your primary mission, you're asking your membership to replace you with someone/something more relevant.


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## Woodman (Mar 12, 2006)

Who made that comment about not being IMBA's mission to not provide insurance? Doing mountain bike instructor training (and mapping, and much more) is not mentioned in the IMBA mission statement.



AllMountin' said:


> I'd like to comment on the remark about it not being IMBAs mission to provide insurance. That insurance, in the eyes of many chapters, was a MAJOR factor playing into the choice to become an IMBA chapter in the first place. The loss of that insurance represents a significant loss of value to individual chapters, as well as an increased workload to the individual chapter leaders.
> 
> It doesn't matter what your mission statement says. Your customers, or members, or whatever you wish to call them, valued that product/service greatly. If you are to represent mountain bikers, and take dues from members, then you need to provide what is important to THEM, not what some focus group decided sounded catchy as your 'mission'.
> 
> Your chapters value insurance. If you claim to represent them, yet do not see meeting their needs as your primary mission, you're asking your membership to replace you with someone/something more relevant.


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## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

Woodman said:


> Who made that comment about not being IMBA's mission to not provide insurance?


It was up-thread:



Mark E said:


> Yes, there are lessons learned. But insurance never has been or will be the defining mission for IMBA.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

It was either up-thread or in the other 15,000 view thread. As I recall it was a comment about the basic deal by a non-IMBA person.

The counterpoint was that it is presented as a value from IMBA.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

As an update to my original post, our club is taking the time to turn a page and get our agreements sorted out. All agendas are currently moving smoothly, and if we can see the results we hope for, it will be better. Better in no liability placed on the clubs insurance allowing us to get back with getting reasonable quotes based on events and functions type stuff not liability, better in what will be allowed as features by the land manager.

The one real downside has been that since IMBA dropped the insurance, the club was forced to take a position of no trail work without proper insurance. As of yet this has been a non issue, but with summer coming the trails become narrow from growth.

Once in place and signed off, we will enter discussions to get the larger projects brought forward.

So is IMBA a Dead Horse, with luck for this club, we will know exactly how to proceed by the end of May if all goes well. It was pretty decided that if we can go it without IMBA, we will, but before a final decision is made, we will evaluate the value of IMBA at the current time and then decide.

In reality, IMBA dropping insurance so far has proven to be a blessing, with a lot of work, in moving the club and landmanager into a new agreement that is better for both sides. 

PK


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## pascale27 (Aug 26, 2011)

My local chapter was also effected by IMBA's insurance drop and had to scramble to find a insurance policy in lawsuit happy NJ, recently TMs have just started up again. 

It was frustrating, but everything is up and running now. I see IMBA as more of a resource, advocacy, and lobbying group which IMO is more than enough. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

I think that one needs to weigh those factors against their cost. That said, there aren't a lot of groups out there like IMBA so unless you are talent rich you art sorta stuck.


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## Tom Shaw (Feb 19, 2014)

Interesting thread on IMBA Canada about their troubles and the reaction of MTBers to it.

http://forums.mtbr.com/eastern-canada/imba-canada-news-913339.html

Kudos to Mark E for standing up to answer questions and field comments about how IMBA operates.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

As a followup, our club is in very serious and focused renegotiation of the existing agreement between the land managers and the club.

At this point, the efforts are moving forward, albeit slowly, but forward.

We were finally given written permission to accomplish basic TM. 

While the topic, now a few months old may not be popular, I knew long ago that our agreement was not optimum, but was the means to move forward. Years ago, I had several discussions with Scott at McKay about these agreements that were very one sided. Again, I knew it was not optimum, but a compromise to have trails.

Fast forward 8 years. Possibly our club is still cutting edge in how we are proceeding to better position ourselves, rather than just settle on finding insurance. The situation we are moving away from, is a position that should be a reasonable compromise for the Land Managers, Clubs or Chapters, and volunteers.

Are we there yet, no. Could it unwind in an instant, yes. Are we sure where it will be when it is all spelled out in legal terms and signed paperwork, no. What I do know is that those that oversee club operations are putting in a best effort to make things better.

I would like to toss out also that, what may be allowed or works in one state or municipality may not be allowed elsewhere. So prior to posting a reply, realize how fortunate your club or chapter may be, or may not be, and understand that difference do exist.

Regarding the large dollar project I mentioned earlier in this topic, it remains on hold until the other items get sorted out.

In regards to how our club is positioned within IMBA or not will be decided also after we see where the dust settles. Honestly, IMBA in regards to our club has not been a focus or topic as we see the real priority at the moment.

PK


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Available now online:
ISSUU - IMBA Annual Report: 2013 in Review by IMBA

Info in the report is relevant to this thread and speculation about the financial relationship between IMBA and its chapters.

A key statistic is that IMBA invests $3 in programs that directly benefit chapters for each $1 derived from shared membership revenue.

The figures in the annual report are reviewed and verified by an independent auditing firm.

-- Mark


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Read the report, thanks for the link.

PK


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

I'm glad I found this thread. The problem that our local club faced with IMBA was that they came to us with a past due amount for the insurance, which we were unaware of. They sent Patrick out to negotiate a payment, but when asked why we needed the insurance things got real quite. Most of what we do is through the Forest Service and Open Space (New Mexico is a practically a blank canvas), for which there are many smaller projects on the table. As far as that goes, we have a pretty good relationship, and the lines of communication remain open thanks to a few very dedicated individuals. Typically, we are covered under their insurance in those endeavors. With regard to races, fund raisers and the like, there are few long time organizers that are fairly entrenched in that scene. They, along with some of the higher volume shops, tend to turn a pretty good profit from that, and the local pros sorta stack the cards in their favor with regard to course design. I don't see that changing for the most part any time soon. 

That said, Patrick approached me through Pinkbike to ask my opinion on a few trail projects they were working on - this being prior to his surprise visit as a debt collector. I obliged, and began putting a bug in his ear about some of the bigger projects that we had envisioned here in Albuquerque. He was all ears until our "chapter" president refused to pay the retroactive insurance. All communications between Patrick and I ceased. I understand her decision, as I had always suspected that IMBA would not be a worthwhile investment for us. Firstly, I'm not a huge fan of blanket standards set forth in their project requirements. I have assisted projects that exceed IMBA tolerances, yet they remain some of most well sustained trails in the area. It all boils down to working within the limits of the local terrain, and depending on the desired results there are sometimes exceptions to the rule. Secondly, we as a community simply don't have the kind of cohesiveness that they are looking for. That is certainly our failing, and can be quite limiting when it comes to stewardship and the need for volunteers, but in retrospect it is part of our "charm." 

I am still quite interested in getting some of the bigger projects I have in mind off the ground, so I appreciate all the input and advice from fellow advocates in this thread. Ideally, I'd start my own company if I had the means. Thanks, again, for all the contributions to this thread. I hope the constructive feedback continues. IMBA at one time satisfied a need, but I think they have lost sight of some critical objectives, or at the very least have failed to see the writing on the wall. No matter what the industry says about flatlining sales, there are twice as many bike shops locally as there were when I first moved here; so I know that there is continuous supply of riders willing to spend their money, and motivated enough to support expanding opportunities. 

-Bryan


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

I once if they will be able to embrace some of the challenges discussed here and in other thread at their summit. I wonder how they will be seen. Will the objections be seen as from the margins or as aspects of the community that do not fall into the low-hanging-fruit perspective?

Will they still see themselves as "right"?


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## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Nicely put and concur on your points, after the insurance fiasco and having to seek our own,now much more expensive, we had to become more creative with our fund raising efforts,which was kind of a blessing in disguise. our community has really embraced our efforts with donations,equipment and materials for our many projects.being an IMBA Chapter certainly has it's kodos but at the end of the day they need us more them we need them.our biggest rant now is communication,unrealistic promises and follow up.


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## TheBigV (Aug 18, 2011)

techfersure said:


> .our biggest rant now is communication,unrealistic promises and follow up.


Agree 100%. The insurance issue was handled poorly, but I think most groups have recovered. The fact that they cannot keep track of memberships and keep sending me renewal reminders when I re-upped 2 months ago is disconcerting and makes me wonder how much of my dues are being wasted on needless mailings.

However, the lack of communication, constantly changing and never-realized promises are what really bothers me. Every year our IMBA rep promises us x $ for something and it never materializes, or it comes with strings that were not previously disclosed (we have to hire their builders) or new conditions (matching funds).

I am also distressed that a lot of IMBA's focus seems to be pushing their affiliated businesses and commercially-viable "epic ride centers", as if they are theme parks or something. The money seems to flow to a few established, larger groups and favorite trails.

I have seen little to no help "advocating" access or expansion on a local basis. When there is contact with local managers, the land managers get disillusioned by the empty promises and unrealistic proposals.

On the other hand, the regional summits are very helpful, although I do not know if you necessarily need a national organization to coordinate this.

In short, IMBA seems to have not done a whole lot from our club except take our membership dues and get our hopes up with false promises. Other than being affiliated with a national "brand", the chapter program does not seem to have been a wise decision.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

MTB Clubs in Australia have been told not to renew their IMBA Au affiliation since the National Director resigned.


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

I think IMBA has the challenge currently of remaining relevant.

Our club has been around since 1991, and has been an IMBA-affiliate for a long time. When we started officially building trail, we set up a second 501(c)3 organization that is memberless specifically for trail building activities. That separated the two types of liability (construction and social), and it works for us. In the early years, IMBA came out several times and gave trainings, etc. A bunch of us went to the IMBA trainings, and have taken our knowledge learned and have trained the next 2 generations of builders locally. 

We have not had much interaction with IMBA for the last few years, for a couple of reasons:
1. We haven't really needed them. We are quite honestly more expert trail builders than IMBA staff, relative to our local soil and terrain. We understand our soils, weather patterns, rock shelves, etc. and build kick ass trails that rival anywhere. We have built a great volunteer network, and are able to keep our trails in top condition and expand as needed. We actually have to turn land managers down on occasion now b/c we don't have the right "champion" for the project or the land just isn't right. We have more opportunities than we can keep up with.

2. When IMBA created the Chapter Program, they lumped us in the "midwest" or whatever, with a rep in Minnesota that made it fairly clear he could give a **** about our neck of the woods. We simple could not find the value of giving 60% of the membership revenue to IMBA for not much service (at least as of late).

3. We had our own insurance. The social club was still with IMBA insurance, so they had to scramble, but our trailbuilding group has carried our own insurance, which is better than IMBA's, for years now, and we were glad we were not left out in a lurch on a moment's notice.

I dropped my IMBA membership when I felt like the national org only truly cared about advocacy issues in coastal or mountain states, and they rolled over like a dog for an "agreement" with the Sierra Club that I felt was much more beneficial to the SC than to mountain bikers.

We have recently been re-grouped into a new region with a guy from Arkansas that is fired up and frankly seems to "get it" more. We have had a number of discussions with him and we're trying to find a way to make the club a Chapter and re-engage with IMBA.

I think the lesson here is that IMBA needs to realize that clubs need to feel like you understand their needs and care about their needs, and not just about CA and CO. We also don't all want to hire your professional builders. We like doing things ourselves. You have to remain relevant to our needs, and even if you don't like the name of the thread, it's in your best interest to respond sincerely from a customer service standpoint and chew on your pride instead of bringing the snark.


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## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

Well said. I haven't been a member for some time either. For too long, IMBA was far too willing to concede on Wilderness issues. They have gotten better. I would be so happy to support an org that fought as strongly for our access to backcountry singletrack as the NRA does for 2nd amendment rights.



Francis Buxton said:


> I think IMBA has the challenge currently of remaining relevant.
> 
> Our club has been around since 1991, and has been an IMBA-affiliate for a long time. When we started officially building trail, we set up a second 501(c)3 organization that is memberless specifically for trail building activities. That separated the two types of liability (construction and social), and it works for us. In the early years, IMBA came out several times and gave trainings, etc. A bunch of us went to the IMBA trainings, and have taken our knowledge learned and have trained the next 2 generations of builders locally.
> 
> ...


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

I'm not sure where anyone gets the idea that California gets much from IMBA except for the south central coast. In fact California generates far more money in dues than any other area which ends up financing the org and everywhere else.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I'm not sure where anyone gets the idea that California gets much from IMBA except for the south central coast. In fact California generates far more money in dues than any other area which ends up financing the org and everywhere else.


You mean us? We don't get squat from IMBA. Pay far more, took over 2 years to try and get a TCC visit and they want to be here the week before Christmas!? Have seen our rep twice, first time convincing us to be a chapter, one time after for a couple hours on his way to sandy eggo. Now mid-November, but still. They kept trying to see us in July or August, brown moon dust months. I'm goingwith dead horse at this point


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Sorry, Slocaus, but you ware one of the few in California who suggested that they supported you re Mike Kelly and equestrians. Thanks for the clarification.

So my case is even stonger.

Most importantly my response was to reorient Francis Buxton's comment:
"I think the lesson here is that IMBA needs to realize that clubs need to feel like you understand their needs and care about their needs, and not just about CA and CO. "

Just like your group, Francis, the BTCEB has succeeded by our own resources. We are one of the 2 surviving founders of IMBA. We have been a free standing 502 (c) 3 since 1988, manage our own membership, fundraising, outreach & communications, build and direct our own events including monthly Gala rides, Women's rides, Kid's rides, Trail Work days, legal representation, insurance. Trailcare visits in 2005 and 2008 were fun but other than that we have gotten nothing to help us with access.

In the last 18 months IMBA has come to the SF Bay Area to try and organize a regional chapter with a headquarters in Marin. On one hand what the Chapter program offers would only try and duplicate what all of these organizations already have. On the other IMBA says they can then hire a full-time person to address our advocacy needs.

The most cynical view is that IMBA, after using our dollars all over the country has come back to try and bind an area of 8,000,000 together as a cash cow. The most generous view is that they hope to organize for more efficiency & clout. Response form the 8 local groups has been very weak. I think that is a mixture of a long-earned lack of faith and a sense of the unique political demands, and the variety of freestanding agencies that must be addressed in of each of our local areas.

Certainly there are folks devoted to the IMBA model but those are largely the ones who attend the summits and watch each other preach to the choirs; I very rarely see them anywhere at the area events. That is, except the annual Ales & Trails event. That was started in 2004 by the Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay (BTCEB), Bicycle Trails Council of the Marin (BTCM), Acces4Bikes, NorCamba, started and was a celebration of rides, games, food and was really cool. It was free for all members.

By 2006 this was co-opted as an IMBA fundraiser. Long-standing volunteers were now required to pay $30, which has now increased to $55 and IMBA walks away with over $10,000 ...oh never mind. 

"You just come and see me 
around election time."

Big Brother
by Stevie Wonder


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

IMBA no longer in Australia?...

Changing Role of IMBA Australia - Mountain Bike Australia



> Changing Role of IMBA Australia
> Published Date
> Written by MTBA Media
> MTBA wishes to announce that, following the changing role of IMBA in Australia, MTBA will be taking over the programs of MTB Advocacy and mountain biking Trail Development throughout Australia.
> ...


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

What does IMBA have to do with anything in Australia now? Are they still getting a piece of the money?


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm not sure about money. It seems to be dead over here since the National Director resigned to go work with World Trail. Essentially it was a one man show.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

As the original topic starter, I want to add an update. The position our club has now attained, removed us from an agreement that was one sided in favor of the land manager / county, to having our group be listed as volunteers. This has removed the club from liabilities, and will hopefully see a new page where both the club and county can work closer for better trails.

The entire process was risky, knowing it could have meant just walking away from the trails and leaving it all behind. With patience, carefully wording requests, reading all the details of the replies, and then ensuring the wording was good for all involved, it took months, but move us to a higher level.

Our most recent discussions as Directors and Officers of the club, have us finishing details about our IMBA involvement, insurance for other reasons, and small items.

We have no plans to become a Chapter. 

Honestly though, the focus currently is in getting final details for a great fall and winter maintenance and building season. Our climate allows us to ride all year, so as it cools down, we hope all the efforts work as we hope.

Not bagging on IMBA, but we did this without them. We had no contact from them since they ended the insurance, which now seems to be a blessing for our club. I do need to confess though, IMBA did contact us, sent us a renewal for the club membership...

Overall, as this settles for us, we will re-evaluate our IMBA involvement.

PK


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## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Good for you guys, your move away from IMBA is unfortunately there fault and loss.minimum feedback from them may have changed the outcome.we are monitoring our relationship as a Chapter over the next year as to if they have our best interests at heart.we really are quite independent of them if we need to be, our relationship is rock solid with the several land managers we work with, have our own insurance and have no need for trail infrastructure or solutions from them.the only benifit is our working to be an IMBA Destination which is actually looking pretty good, but at the end of the day it's all about being on the bike, having access to great trails with a long term working relationship with land managers, which we have in spades.IMO IMBA needs to step up and please the needs and wants of there members or there usefulness for Chapter's is moot.


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## cbcbike (Apr 11, 2004)

Does anyone know the reasoning behind IMBA's increased membership dues? My club has been an IMBA affiliate for years. We went to renew our membership this year and found out that the price has gone from $100 / year to $500 / year!! When we asked why or what extra benefits we would get to justify the price increase we did not get a straight answer. In fact, we got no answer at all. Needless to say, my club will not be renewing membership with IMBA. Unfortunate!

I don't understand how any organization can raise prices 5X without giving any reasoning or added benefit and expect to retain members!!


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

cbcbike: IMBA has been reworking the affiliate program in major ways. Obviously the new chapter category is a big emphasis. As for supporting organizations (i.e. clubs), we talked to many organizations around the country that agreed that the rates needed to increase for the program to remain functional. The $100 per year membership rate for a local group with hundreds of members was just a few times the cost of an individual membership. Supporting organizations are eligible for grants, customized communications and resources.


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## TiRyder (Mar 8, 2005)

Mark, Below is a Copy and paste from the IMBA site. Is this no longer the case? Is it a 500.00 fee regardless of group size?

"Supporting Organization membership costs $100 per year for organizations with less than 100 members and $500 per year for organizations with more than 100 members."


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## old_MTBer (Feb 16, 2014)

I can understand that IMBA thought that $100 from clubs with "hundreds" (define hundreds) was low and so increased the dues. But if the club is just slightly big, more that 100 members but less than 200 members, that jump to $500 is one hell of a hit to the budget. Why didn't IMBA think to put a couple of steps between $100 and $500 based on membership numbers?


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

In retrospect, yes, it would have been preferable to raise the dues in stages, starting a few years back. But as I said, many groups told us that the jump to $500 annual dues for clubs with more than 100 members was doable and reasonable. Membership for clubs is up 38 percent over 2013 levels, so it seems that the price hike has been generally embraced. IMBA operates on an honor system for reporting membership levels, so if your group is just a smidge over 100 perhaps you'd feel its more fair to go with the lower rate. But we do feel that local groups that support IMBA at the appropriate level are making a good investment in local and national bike advocacy.


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## ridingthebuff (Jul 9, 2009)

MarkE's salary is going from $128,000 to $147,000 a year plus travel and benefits. The money has to come from somewhere.


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## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Let us not forget the insurance debacle last year in which our chapter now pays over three times as much as we would have if IMBA wouldn't have bailed on it, short notice and really bad communication.


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## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

I doubt Mark's salary makes him rich. I know IMBA employees, they don't make that much. I also work for a non-profit and we get paid a ton less than the private sector. Unless I'm missing something, that was an unfair rip on IMBA and Mark.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

IMBA's handling of the insurance thing was a mess from the communication side and left groups hanging, but I'd guess we all would be paying, 2-3 times the price regardless if IMBA was involved or not.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## ridingthebuff (Jul 9, 2009)

RYNOFREERIDE said:


> I doubt Mark's salary makes him rich. I know IMBA employees, they don't make that much. I also work for a non-profit and we get paid a ton less than the private sector. Unless I'm missing something, that was an unfair rip on IMBA and Mark.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, I was using 2012 numbers. 2013 compensation from IMBA =$138,740 plus $25,494 "Estimated amount of other compensation from the organization and related
organizations"

Totals $164,234

IMBA 990 2013

Pages 8 and 38


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

ridingthebuff said:


> I'm sorry, I was using 2012 numbers. 2013 compensation from IMBA =$138,740 plus $25,494 "Estimated amount of other compensation from the organization and related
> organizations"
> 
> Totals $164,234
> ...


Yeah....so what?


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## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

Guess I'm wrong, wouldn't be first time. I'll retract my statement and let everyone carry on with the conversation.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

I also didn't realize who MarkE was. 

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## pmdishwash (Jun 4, 2010)

ridingthebuff said:


> I'm sorry, I was using 2012 numbers. 2013 compensation from IMBA =$138,740 plus $25,494 "Estimated amount of other compensation from the organization and related
> organizations"
> 
> Totals $164,234
> ...


That's Mike van Abel's salary, not MarkE's. Van Abel is IMBA president, MarkE is communications director or something like that. You can assume other IMBA employees make much less than the prez.


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

That's not my salary, but I like the way you think!


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## cbcbike (Apr 11, 2004)

Hey Mark - thanks for the feedback. I understand that rising expenses drive up costs. That's the way the world works....it's like that in every industry, business, etc. But a 500% jump in one year is a lot......a real lot!! With that big of a jump you would expect something more in return. At least that is the way my club is looking at it. I wouldn't pay 500% more for my phone bill for the same service plan! Right?


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## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

cbcbike said:


> Hey Mark - thanks for the feedback. I understand that rising expenses drive up costs. That's the way the world works....it's like that in every industry, business, etc. But a 500% jump in one year is a lot......a real lot!! With that big of a jump you would expect something more in return. At least that is the way my club is looking at it. I wouldn't pay 500% more for my phone bill for the same service plan! Right?


Agreed! what could they have possibly be thinking or lack there of too to raise costs so significantly, sets a bad precedence for Chapters trying to survive!


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## cglasford (Sep 26, 2011)

Seems like the rip off the band aid approach to me apposed to a gradual increase over 5 years.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

*Independent review*

Props to MikeE for sort of being "out of the closet" in regards to his position at IMBA. Mike obviously had the inside track with what goes on at IMBA; didn't realize that Mike *IS* IMBA.

Hey Mike how come you didn't pick "MikeED" as your moniker? Chuckle, chuckle...

Anyway, I don't know why I didn't check at Charity Navigator before; I always give non-profits a once over before making any donations. My go/no-go is among other things whether or not the executive officer(s) make more or less than USA's President's salary of $400k. More than that and they're not getting a dime from me. (Example: American Heart Association; Executive Director's salary = $841k)

Guess I don't think of IMBA as a non-profit; regardless, based on Mike's salary (why is nobody getting the amount correct?) they get a "go" for my contributions. About right considering his zip code; comfortable, not lavish.

For those too lazy to search for themselves here's the Charity Navigator report for IMBA:










Four stars ain't too shabby!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

PMK said:


> Seems between the insurance issue, now the raised prices, chapters finding now with no insurance their funds are low, what is the bottom line?
> 
> Our group has not given up on IMBA yet, probably on account of still sorting out the mess with insurance.
> 
> ...


Above is a copy of the first post I started this topic with in April.

Seems for some groups not much has changed. For us, we have basically , and I paraphrase what our landmanager stated, taken a crisis and used it to our advantage.

The past 24 months has been a calender of changing times and critical events. We have endured a serious lawsuit from an injury, have had a person die while riding a local trail, had IMBA perform its insurance debacle, and been to the point of ending relations with the landmanager over our written agreement.

In 06 when the club entered into the agreement with the landmanager, the written words were very one sided favoring the landmanager. Within a couple of years, the trails were decent, the agreement was still poor and there was no hope to see it change. At the time, McKay insurance realized we were one of the first groups that was presented a poor agreement and reevaluated risks and coverage. Over the next few years we continued with IMBA insurance.

Also, being near to SORBA, we were solicited to join SORBA. Their rules and guidelines were not in alignment with our trails and the majority of the club opted away from SORBA.

Time moved and things went fairly smooth. The club had obvious typical friction primarily based on rider ability and how each person wanted to build what they thought the trail should be for them.

Eventualy, we had a rider pass away while riding. This caused some serious consideration and concern about insurance, the landmanger agreement. With luck, it was determined the death was health related.

Next became an injury with a lawsuit. During this time, we also discussed with IMBA about a large dollar project. Ultimately, IMBA had insurance concerns and no real answers. If you read the entire topic, you will gain insight into how the large trail project has moved.

At this time the large trail project, is a non issue.

The lawsuit has been settled.

We should have the insurance settled.

And most importantly we took the crisis of IMBA's insurance fiasco, the lawsuit and all concerns and pretty much offered the landmanager, change the agreement or we are done. A huge risk for all the local trails, but without the ability to restrict the trails, the landmanger needed to step up.

After months of rewrites, and years of knowing what is best for a club (in our opinion), we have finally gotten a fair agreement which has club members that accomplish trail work to be individuals volunteering and fall under the landowners insurance. The club maintains insurance as a secondary for activities beyond those with the landmanager.

I want to add we have remained an IMBA club through this and are currently an IMBA club. Do we need to be, probably not. Do we support trail advocacy and the good IMBA has done, yes.

If I could say one thing to those clubs similar to us (maybe without lawsuits and deaths), make smart decisions based on your own fact finding, don't back down unless you are in the wrong. Your first partner should be the landmanager and work to always make it better for them and for your club, the riders while important are benefiting from the clubs efforts and take a close second. And if possible, take any crisis and use it to your clubs advantage.

Our club is moving forward, and at a pace we have not seen since the riders death. If we can do it so can others. Sometimes every item becomes the same as a long granny gear climb with no peak in sight. Don't walk or give up, endure the strain and rise above to conquer the climb.

All the best with it and all the best to IMBA.

PK


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

PMK said:


> I want to add we have remained an IMBA club through this and are currently an IMBA club. Do we need to be, probably not. Do we support trail advocacy and the good IMBA has done, yes.
> 
> All the best with it and all the best to IMBA.
> 
> PK


The Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay has much the same position re IMBA. We have remained a club but will not be chapter; we don't need what they offer.

As to the death of IMBA I think it has, rather, simply evolved into an organization that delivers in a fashion allowing it to survive. I think they have moved away from their roots (The BTCEB is one of the three founders of IMBA). In a way our roots are hard to sell to the people holding the keys to the gates. Nothing wrong with being pragmatic.

Yet this disposition leaves many at the mercy of what they decide and groups either pony up, follow the IMBA trail method & politics, or they are out on their own. The insurance fiasco and the $500 membership bomb make that pretty clear.

Over time people will forget or will fade away with new folks taking their places. And IMBA will continue its work with the new folks saying who wonderful IMBA is and what a deal.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Over time people will forget or will fade away with new folks taking their places. And IMBA will continue its work with the new folks saying who wonderful IMBA is and what a deal.


Agree. I like many friends I know that still ride or have stopped riding, for most of us it has been a 20 to 30 year time frame. Most of these long time riders no longer care about IMBA, yet support the local club with minimal involvement.

Most of us have witnessed or experienced the loss of trails, building of new trails, and witnessed all sorts of politics gone both good and bad.

The new people coming in have huge ideas which is often good. Sadly, many are quick to discount experience on all things MTB. This should not come across as a "get off my lawn". It was said back in 1990 when we expected a local trail to close due to development, "those that want to ride will ride".

Yes those that want to ride will ride, and now some 25 years later we still do. Not because of IMBA, not because of the local clubs (past and present), but really from a passion to ride.

Ironically, that trail we worried about in 1990 did finally become developed. A portion became a strip mall while the rest became overpriced homes.

The true irony is that the trail survived for some 12 or 13 years. No IMBA, no club, and lived through the 90's MTB boom. The strip mall and homes while still there, went about 10 years max. The mall tenants have dwindled and the anchor tenant has moved a mile south. The original homeowners, many bought in at boom that saw expensive homes of lesser quality. The first home bust saw many home owners walk away or become foreclosed. Yes the homes were resold, but even today, there are still a lot that have been sold again and are again in foreclosure.

That trail may be gone, it will never be replaced, other trails now exist, the calender has made us all older, with some riders passing away. However, those that want to ride still ride and we do ride.

PK


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## Skelldify (May 10, 2013)

PMK said:


> Yes those that want to ride will ride, and now some 25 years later we still do. Not because of IMBA, not because of the local clubs (past and present), but really from a passion to ride.
> PK


This is the bottom line. IMBA can build flow trails. The real riders will build their own trails, see them torn out, and build them again.


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

Skelldify said:


> This is the bottom line. IMBA can build flow trails. The real riders will build their own trails, see them torn out, and build them again.


Curious to know where one could "get away" with this method in this day and age? Also, what defines a "real rider" in this case?


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## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Oh My Sack! said:


> Curious to know where one could "get away" with this method in this day and age? Also, what defines a "real rider" in this case?


Actually in many parts of Pa you still can,there are multiple thousands of acres of abandoned and neglected coal region land that you can pretty much do what you want.I'm also a dirt bike rider and have help ride in many miles of new trail in which I ride Mtn bikes too. some pretty amazing features from all of the excavations and strip mines.


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