# the highline has landed!



## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

Thanks to David and Greg and everyone else at Turner! Such a beautiful frame.....

just the first photo.....










As I get the bike build and ridden I will be leaving regular updates. Fell free to ask any Q's. Theres also active posts in the turner forum, and also on Ridemonkey so some of the Q's may have already been asked.

also i will be at a few NW events where i will be willing to lend the bike for a run or two... That is with your Credit card and PIN number.... LOL.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

Very interedting linkage, lookin good. Like that seat post clamp cut, class.


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## matt (Feb 2, 2004)

sweet frame, nothing rivals turner quality.

well, er, maybe you should have gotten a versus blitz.


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## sortafast (Feb 12, 2004)

nice.


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## austinb89 (Nov 6, 2004)

looks really nice, how much is it?


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## designer485 (Apr 12, 2005)

That frame is HOT. Wow i love that color and the linkage. Tell us how it rides after you get it built up and post some pics as you build it up.


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## Amazing Larry104 (Aug 19, 2005)

thats sweet, the linkage is cool and the metal looks ruggeddd- i like it a lot


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## norton05 (Sep 20, 2005)

Wow, that's a cool lookin frame. All those curves zigzagging in the middle make it seem like something off a spaceship. I've never seen a suspension design like that, looking forward to ride reports!


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## Scott the Biker (Oct 24, 2005)

norton05 said:


> Wow, that's a cool lookin frame. All those curves zigzagging in the middle make it seem like something off a spaceship. I've never seen a suspension design like that, looking forward to ride reports!


Check it out! RIDE REPORT!


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

norton05 said:


> Wow, that's a cool lookin frame. All those curves zigzagging in the middle make it seem like something off a spaceship. I've never seen a suspension design like that, looking forward to ride reports!


has a nicolai aesthetic to it....not really that exciting....unless it's <$1500


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

nice..any closer pictures of the link design


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> nice..any closer pictures of the link design


kinda looks like a stinky/cove/as-x/vpfree/canfield.


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## steelduck (Jul 12, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> nice..any closer pictures of the link design


It is a good looking "faux bar". It is a pity that Turner did not get the ICT or FSR license for 2006. A horst link Highline would have rocked, but not it is basically a really good looking and expensive Kona. (Nothing against Kona's though - great bikes for their price)


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

Started at 8:00, finished at 12:00. Later i will post a build report and my complete bike list...


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## Acadian (Jan 1, 2004)

look good Damon!! congrats!


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## akitadogg (May 23, 2005)

That is a sweet looking bike! 

However I took offense at the highline since there is only one real highline and this is it:

btw..you;re looking at CANUSA just east of glacier and waterton


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## wyrm (Jan 19, 2004)

I really like that frame. What people really don't get to appreciate it the up close attention to detail. Like the machining that was done. All the pivots are bushings and have grease ports...no bearings. The cleanness of all the welds. And the rawness of the alumimum. The little turner etchings in the smallest of places....

A month ago I almost said "fug-it" and sold my 7.7 frame for one of those when I walked into Go-ride. My losses would have been too big for me to handle and I'm not sure the benefits wouldn't have out weighed them. 

One thing that I would have liked to have done was polish the frame with some Mothers. That would have made it ten times more sexy. My complete build would have been all black.


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## Photo-John (Aug 1, 2001)

*Finish?*

I liked the original, dirty, rough finish better. It looked good with carhart riding gear


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## tronspecial (Sep 17, 2004)

OOOOOHHHHH. Me rikey. she looks pretty oly, you're stoked. I saw a highline at go ride and I gotta say that the naked metal is a very nice touch. Oh yea, nice touch w/ the chromag stem, tres chic.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2006)

I always thought highlines were FSR... hmm


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## matt (Feb 2, 2004)

misctwo said:


> kinda looks like a stinky/cove/as-x/vpfree/canfield.


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## scabrider (Oct 3, 2004)

sick...


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

looks awesome, need ACTION shots


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## Photo-John (Aug 1, 2001)

*They Were*



[email protected] said:


> I always thought highlines were FSR... hmm


They were - keyword, "were." Turner no longer makes any four-bar bikes. Guys who ride them swear they're still great. I've only ridden the old 5-Spot, so I don't know. For a bike like the Hihgline, it probably doesn't matter as much as it would with smaller bikes.


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## steelduck (Jul 12, 2004)

Photo-John said:


> They were - keyword, "were." Turner no longer makes any four-bar bikes. Guys who ride them swear they're still great. I've only ridden the old 5-Spot, so I don't know. For a bike like the Hihgline, it probably doesn't matter as much as it would with smaller bikes.


It matters even more. Going fast into a rock garden and hitting the brakes with a "singlepivotish" bike like the non-FSR Turner makes the rear skip all over the place, compared to a FSR bike.


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## austinb89 (Nov 6, 2004)

misctwo said:


> has a nicolai aesthetic to it....not really that exciting....unless it's <$1500


thats what i was thinking to. i actaully like the frame now more than the raw finish


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## finchy (Jan 21, 2004)

steelduck said:


> It matters even more. Going fast into a rock garden and hitting the brakes with a "singlepivotish" bike like the non-FSR Turner makes the rear skip all over the place, compared to a FSR bike.


it would also matter more because a bike like the highline ahs more travel which means that the frames are even more reliant on the shock technology rather then frame design... i think it was foolish for turner to drop fsr and still keep the prices high... they just want to make more money ihmo... alright people start ranting!


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## esquire (Jan 12, 2004)

*You are correct...*



finchy said:


> it would also matter more because a bike like the highline ahs more travel which means that the frames are even more reliant on the shock technology rather then frame design... i think it was foolish for turner to drop fsr and still keep the prices high... they just want to make more money ihmo... alright people start ranting!


I'm sure that Dave Turner is living high off the hog with that $5.78 per frame that the FSR patent cost him. Trust me, it was something entirely different.


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## MTBSully (Sep 18, 2004)

that looks really good. get some action pics


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## kntr (Jan 25, 2004)

I was going to get a Highline but decided not to because they did away with the FSR. 

Ya, I ride a Fly, which is single pivot.


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## JMH (Feb 23, 2005)

*A lot like the Transition Gran Mal...*

Except way more expensive and not as adjustable... 

It is a sweet looking rig, though.

JMH



SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> nice..any closer pictures of the link design


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## finchy (Jan 21, 2004)

but that $5.78 should have been put towards developing a new suspnsion design not just wasting time with single pivot...


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## BJ- (Jan 28, 2004)

finchy said:


> but that $5.78 should have been put towards developing a new suspnsion design not just wasting time with single pivot...


whats wrong with single pivots?


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## drtdiva (Sep 25, 2005)

*Dhr*

the dhr been kicking ass for 5 years with no fsr, so it dont matter with a highline, the rear of the dhr actually gets more stable on the brakes and bounces around less than fully active.


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

esquire said:


> I'm sure that Dave Turner is living high off the hog with that $5.78 per frame that the FSR patent cost him. Trust me, it was something entirely different.


that $5.78 figure is wrong. Plus, turner bikes in general are really damn overpriced, which just adds to the allure....


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## coma13 (Sep 3, 2005)

steelduck said:


> It matters even more. Going fast into a rock garden and hitting the brakes with a "singlepivotish" bike like the non-FSR Turner makes the rear skip all over the place, compared to a FSR bike.


What are you doing braking in a rock garden? just pin it!


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## Jii (Dec 29, 2004)

BJ- said:


> whats wrong with single pivots?


Well, apart from the brake jack and the squatting, nothing. I myself ride a single pivot, and love it for its simplicity and affordability. Paying 2095 $ for a single pivot frame is where I get confused. The Highline is without a doubt a very beautiful frame, but I really can't think of any justification for not spending a couple of hundred bucks more and get a VPP or FSR/ICT frame. The list is endless, VP-Free, Uzzi VPX, Ellsworth Dare/Rogue, Spesh Demo/SX Trail and so on. Imo, if you make a single pivot or single-pivot like bike, it should be considered costwise. There's a load of sweet single pivots out there in the sub 1500 $ range. Turners used to be very sweet bikes, but IMHO they're just overpriced Konas at present, not that there's anything wrong with Kona.

This is absolutely not meant to bash the original posters feelings/opinions about the Highline, it sure is a good looking bike which probably works very well as long as you are aware of the bikes handling in different situations and can predict the behavior. It's basically only the cost factor that gets me all worked up  .


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

My build:
*frame*-Medium highline
*shock*-Fox dhx 5.0 500lb spring.
*fork*-Fox Dh40 Rc2 w-custom top crown
*headset*-E-13 cups w- FSA IS bearings
*stem*-Chromag boxxer direct mount
*bar*-Azonic b-52
*grips*-Odi lockon
*brakes*-Avid juicy7 -8"
*bb*-Fsa 83 x 128
*cranks*-Raceface northshore dh isis 170mm
*rings*-36, 22t 
*guide*E-13 drs 36t (raceface bash pictured, but thats temporary.)
*shifters*-Sram x9 
*rear d*-Sram x9 midcage
*Front D*-Sram
*chain*-Sram pc99 hollow pin
*cassette*-sram 11-32
*pedals*-Azonic A-frames or Mallet M's (upgrading flat pedals to wellgo mag-1)
*seatpost* SDG I beam
*saddle*-SDG FRD
*wheels*-Azonic outlaw 150mm
*tires*-maxxis minion dh f/ HR rear (Upgrading to kenda nevagal/blue groove 2.5 kevlar, these will be my "get back in shape , drop 2 lbs off the bike tires")


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## finchy (Jan 21, 2004)

BJ- said:


> whats wrong with single pivots?


why would u want a single pivot frame when there are alternatives that are superior? such as FSR, DW-link, Maestro, VPP------>if turner didnt want to pay the royalties then why didnt they do what giant did? giant was using FSR for ages and paying royalties, hen they got out of fsr frames and built them on their own unique and very sucessful maestro system. turner going back to single pivot frames is like saying we dont want to do more research, be creative with designs or pay royaltys we'd rather use a system nobody patented and focus on the quality of the product not the effectivness of the product

just a rant if u disagree lets hear it people!!!


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

finchy said:


> if turner didnt want to pay the royalties then why didnt they do what giant did? giant was using FSR for ages and paying royalties, hen they got out of fsr frames and built them on their own unique and very sucessful maestro system.
> 
> just a rant if u disagree lets hear it people!!!


Your kidding right? Maestro unique? haha. That is a good one.......


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

4 hours is a pretty long time for a build. My boss would kill me if I took more than an hour to put together a bike from scratch.

That does look really really really nice though. It's nice, even if it is a faux-bar.


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## skatetokil (Apr 27, 2004)

I really like the uninterrupted seat tube as opposed to FSR bikes though. Seat angle looks pretty steep on that thing too. . . bet it climbs real well. nothing pisses me off more than these laid back "FR" bikes with 2 inches of seat adjustability.


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## turnerbikes (Apr 12, 2004)

*cost*

I am sorry that some of you think that Turner bikes are over priced. They are made here where the wage and cost of doing business is high, and I assure you that we are not gettting rich on selling US made bikes. I would sell it for less if I could make it for less, in the USA. If I could sell the Highline of the DHR for 1495 I would, but I would have to go to asia for that. And then my margin would be HIGHER at 1495 than they are now, so who is screwing who?

What is confusing is mixing in the lack of VPP or HL or whatever. The actual cost of using any patented links is small per unit. A new model still needs a considerable amount of development time, regardless if there is one or more pivots under chain torque. I am not charging you for my computer time, we charge you for the cost of doing business, from coast to coast there are parts going into the Turner bikes. Yes some of the hardware is imported just so you don't think I am stupid or a bigot.

When I decided to quit using the HL on all the Turner frames it did not save me a fortune, and my #1 fear is actually being born out in this thread. You guys are more concerned about marketing hype than what will matter on the trail. I re-read the thread to check but some of you name off everyone of the TM Pat Pend designs as being better than a single, rattled them off like each and everyone is God's gift to the mechanized world. Do you think that applying for a Pat makes a design good? Do you think there is someone at the patent office that knows or gives a ****? All they care about is that it has not been done before. That's it. It don't even have to work at all. It is then used as a cornerstone in a marketing campaign, for consumers to swallow.

Do you think that I would make a **** design just to save a fistfull of dollars? The DHR has been around since early 2000 in one form or another. But always with a single pivot. It works, really really well. I guess I build bikes for those that want to ride for years and spread your dollars over the most days, that is what I built my business on. Can I trade mark that? Would it matter?

Happy Trails

David Turner


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## pdirt (Jan 12, 2004)

turnerbikes said:


> I am sorry that some of you think that Turner bikes are over priced. They are made here where the wage and cost of doing business is high, and I assure you that we are not gettting rich on selling US made bikes. I would sell it for less if I could make it for less, in the USA. If I could sell the Highline of the DHR for 1495 I would, but I would have to go to asia for that. And then my margin would be HIGHER at 1495 than they are now, so who is screwing who?
> 
> What is confusing is mixing in the lack of VPP or HL or whatever. The actual cost of using any patented links is small per unit. A new model still needs a considerable amount of development time, regardless if there is one or more pivots under chain torque. I am not charging you for my computer time, we charge you for the cost of doing business, from coast to coast there are parts going into the Turner bikes. Yes some of the hardware is imported just so you don't think I am stupid or a bigot.
> 
> ...


p0wnage


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

turnerbikes said:


> I am sorry that some of you think that Turner bikes are over priced. They are made here where the wage and cost of doing business is high, and I assure you that we are not gettting rich on selling US made bikes. I would sell it for less if I could make it for less, in the USA. If I could sell the Highline of the DHR for 1495 I would, but I would have to go to asia for that. And then my margin would be HIGHER at 1495 than they are now, so who is screwing who?
> 
> What is confusing is mixing in the lack of VPP or HL or whatever. The actual cost of using any patented links is small per unit. A new model still needs a considerable amount of development time, regardless if there is one or more pivots under chain torque. I am not charging you for my computer time, we charge you for the cost of doing business, from coast to coast there are parts going into the Turner bikes. Yes some of the hardware is imported just so you don't think I am stupid or a bigot.
> 
> ...


Not trying to add fuel to the fire, OK maybe a little, but are you saying that all those years you used the HL on your bikes you were just *"concerned about marketing hype"*? Seems like you didn't mind the "hype" when you were building a name for yourself, so what change?

I personally don't care what design you make your bikes with, if I don't like what you've got I'm sure I can find is somewhere else, no loss to me.


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## AZ Saint (Jan 13, 2004)

red5 said:


> Not trying to add fuel to the fire, OK maybe a little, but are you saying that all those years you used the HL on your bikes you were just *"concerned about marketing hype"*? Seems like you didn't mind the "hype" when you were building a name for yourself, so what change?
> 
> I personally don't care what design you make your bikes with, if I don't like what you've got I'm sure I can find is somewhere else, no loss to me.


Touche


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## steelduck (Jul 12, 2004)

My experience is that when I ride my Heckler or my friends Joker, I get brake jack and skipping in the rought stuff and when I ride a Uzzi VPX, Moment, or a Demo 9 I do not get it.

If I pay top dollar for the bike I wan't it to have all the bells and wistles. If I would not care about the functionality (or hype as you say,) I would just buy a Kona or some other good Taiwan made frame.

You might be right that I would not feel the difference in a blind A/B test, but I do not care, if I pay for the best - I want the best. Hype or not.

Give us a HL version and the TNT and see which will sell. Put the FSR Lisense on top of the price if you like. I am sure that you would still sell more of the HL version.

I truly love the quality of the Turner bikes - it is amazing. My neighbor just built a beautiful Turner Flux and I was planning to get the 5Spot, but I want a FSR/VPP/Maestro or some other hyped rear suspension as I think most of the other buyers looking for a bike in this price range will.

As person working in product marketing, all I can say is:"What on earth where you thinking, when you dropped the Horst Link?"


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

steelduck said:


> My experience is that when I ride my Heckler or my friends Joker, I get brake jack and skipping in the rought stuff and when I ride a Uzzi VPX, Moment, or a Demo 9 I do not get it.
> 
> If I pay top dollar for the bike I wan't it to have all the bells and wistles. If I would not care about the functionality (or hype as you say,) I would just buy a Kona or some other good Taiwan made frame.
> 
> ...


the problem with that, and the real reason Turner dumped the HL is that for some unknown reason that I cannot figure he got hit with a suit from Ellsworth to pay license fees for the ICT patent on top the fees he was already paying to Spec. Regardless of whats been said, the real reason as I see it that DT dropped the HL was indeed money, contrary to what DT says.

What I'm even futher curious about is why Tony Ellsworth doesn't go after Specialized???? I'm guessing Spec is a little to big for Ells to intimidate with frivolous suits.


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## steelduck (Jul 12, 2004)

Tony is a weasel...


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

steelduck said:


> Tony is a weasel...


And turner builds badass bikes. Regardless of where he decides to put pivots.

Comparisons to kona are a freakin joke. 5 minutes of inspection of either product shows this.

5 minutes on any dh run on a turner downhill bike will show you the guy knows how to make any design work well. The fact that it has "turner" stamped on it would mean a great deal to anyone who's actually dealt with the company.


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## Surfinguru (Feb 6, 2004)

kid, you are so right. My buddy has an RFX and is currently waiting for his Highline to be delivered. Based on the build quality of the RFX, I have no doubt the Highline will be top notch. All you haters need to give it a rest. If you don't like the direction Turner has gone, fine, but really, there is no need to bash. You guys are starting to sound like a bunch of elitest roadie ****.....

And David, thanks for jumping in and putting your $.02 out there. It's cool that you actually take the time to peruse these forums and listen to what people are saying. I don't own one of your bikes, but I do ride a single pivot bike (Foes Fly) and they do work very well and are easy to maintain. I believe I have some insight as to why you really decided to drop the HL design (as I have friends in the industry) but I'll leave those comments to you so as not to put words in your mouth.

Cheers.


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## hilikus (Sep 11, 2005)

you build fast. good that everything came together smoothly. bike looks nice


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

XSL_WiLL said:


> 4 hours is a pretty long time for a build. My boss would kill me if I took more than an hour to put together a bike from scratch.
> 
> That does look really really really nice though. It's nice, even if it is a faux-bar.


Awesome, your so much better than me. When I build mine, I take my time. Also had a friend drop by with his DH bike to show me the new rocco shock, got a phone call, drank some more beer, got my camera, drank some more beer, took photos, locked shop and went inside....

oh yea, I sure hope your customers appreciate rush jobs.....


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

All y'all sucks

I can build a turkey sammich in 28 seconds.


Wiff tomato!!!


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## sriracha (Jun 23, 2004)

oly said:


> oh yea, I sure hope your customers appreciate rush jobs.....


yah, there's a difference between "building" a bike for a shop (where really all you're doing is slapping the fork and wheels on and tuning the deraileurs) and actually putting together your pride and joy. i'm with ya oly, when i build my bikes, i take my time and soak in the moment.


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> All y'all sucks
> 
> I can build a turkey sammich in 28 seconds.
> 
> Wiff tomato!!!


Oh yea? I can eat that turkey sammich wiff tomato in 14.2556534367 seconds. MMMMM turkey......


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## turnerbikes (Apr 12, 2004)

*HL and stuff*

Red, if I had NOT been building the DHR for 5 years I may not have given up the licensing agreements that I was using untill last summer. But when things got weird I took a step back and took a look at the forest for the trees so to speak. I had been involved with the HL from it's very inception. It was the only thing I considered when designing a bike, untill the summer of 99 when the list of demands for a new downhill bike led my thinking away from the Afterburner and the HL. Keep in mind that the Afterburner is so technically perfect in some ways that it is used as prior art for the ICT patent. There are few other HL bikes with that kind of braking and pedaling. So, when the proto DHR was directly compared to the Afterburner it kicked it's as... It out sprinted it and it out braked it even with more travel, the opposite of what steelduck was guessing a couple days ago based on Hecklers and Joker. Why is that? A single pivot is not a single pivot is a single pivot. Length of swingarm and angle of swingarm all have a big impact on the ride of the bike. The Highline and the DHR have different pivot locations compared to other bikes, it matters. The word "Best" in this argument is purely a matter of perspective. If one's perspective includes all the advertising from brand "A" than that is that, there is no room for objectivity. That is what marketing is designed to do. But in the eyes and seat of the pants of those riding the Highline it is worth putting thier money out for, not mine and not yours, but they feel it is the best investment of thier new bike money.

Why on earth would I leave the HL, from the duck? Well, I don't think like a marketing person. I am in the durable goods business, and have been for 12 years, long after most of the marketing guys have been bummed by the meager amount of money in the bike biz and moved on. So, when I gave up the licenses, my intention was to keep making the best bikes I could and servicing them the best we can for years to come. It seems they ride as well or better than anything with TM and PP near the name. Maybe that pisses off some that bought into the others ads? Do you guys really think I would make crappy riding bikes just to save a fistfull of dollars? Turner bikes have always been known to ride extremely well, that is not going to change with the pivot here or there. Turner bikes have always been tougher than the norm, that ain't going to change either. And yes, they are made in USA and that costs more than Chinese knock offs of Devinci, or Foes or Cannondales or anyother North American made bikes. Of course if anyone wants to get in touch with me, we are still here.

David Turner


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## Grendel (Sep 2, 2004)

> Why on earth would I leave the HL, from the duck? *Well, I don't think like a marketing person.* I am in the durable goods business, and have been for 12 years, long after most of the marketing guys have been bummed by the meager amount of money in the bike biz and moved on. So, when I gave up the licenses, my intention was to keep making the best bikes I could and servicing them the best we can for years to come. It seems they ride as well or better than anything with TM and PP near the name. Maybe that pisses off some that bought into the others ads? Do you guys really think I would make crappy riding bikes just to save a fistfull of dollars? Turner bikes have always been known to ride extremely well, that is not going to change with the pivot here or there. Turner bikes have always been tougher than the norm, that ain't going to change either. And yes, they are made in USA and that costs more than Chinese knock offs of Devinci, or Foes or Cannondales or anyother North American made bikes. Of course if anyone wants to get in touch with me, we are still here.


 This this statement right here, is what makes me decide to buy a Turner... in all honesty I was in the process of shopping for a 6" trailbike, having Demo'd the Specialized, Giant, Intense, and Santa Cruz offerings I was having a tough time deciding what to get. All of them were good bikes, but seeing the above statement... well that just pretty much made up my mind.

... Gathering the funds needed for an RFX now


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## zaxxon (Feb 23, 2004)

esquire said:


> I'm sure that Dave Turner is living high off the hog with that $5.78 per frame that the FSR patent cost him. Trust me, it was something entirely different.


Actually he didn't pay anything for the FSR patent, because he has never used the FSR patent. He was grandfathered into the Horst Link patent, which is different, because he was using the design when Horst Laetner owned AMP. This was long before Specialized owned the patent the HL patent and filed for the FSR patent, which is only good in the US.. The FSR patent, states that the rocker is at a particular angle in conjunction with the HL link. The old Intense Tracer is a perfect example of this. Plus the patent he lost was the ICT patent, which he was supposed to be paying Ellsworth for. Which he never paid, and thus was banned from using the ICT technology, so he is making the same money he always has and is still not paying anyone for any of the technology.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

I have a 2002 RFX which I've ridden for over two years. wet and muddy winter XC riding and summers crashing and playing at whistler and the northshore. The frame handles great, has perfect geometry built up as a 5+5" trail bike or a 6+7" free-ride machine (I have both 5" and 6" rockers for it). The pivots have been practically maintenance free- I just give them a few squirts of grease 2-3x a year. The frame feels as stiff as the day I bought it.

Since I like the frame so much, I've decided to get it re-painted. So I pulled the pivot bushings out and was amazed to see that they look brand new after 2+ years. Taking them out took about 5 minutes total, it was very easy and was described perfectly with step-by-step instructions on turners website.

I've owned a lot of FS frames and most all of them have required new bearings every 8-10 weeks here in the PNW. A few of them cracked or pivots just fell apart after a good hard year of riding. meanwhile, resale value on my frame is about what what it was 2 years ago, maybe higher.

You know that DT tests the sh*t out of every product he releases, sweats every detail, and that's why the highline took a while to release. Thats also why it's not cheap and it is likely perfect.

Sure there are cheaper options out there for the value-minded, but with those comes the risk of lower QC or designs that were rushed to market.

You sure don't hear of many turner owners that regret their purchases... not always the case with high-end bikes....


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## esquire (Jan 12, 2004)

*Well....*



red5 said:


> the problem with that, and the real reason Turner dumped the HL is that for some unknown reason that I cannot figure he got hit with a suit from Ellsworth to pay license fees for the ICT patent on top the fees he was already paying to Spec. Regardless of whats been said, the real reason as I see it that DT dropped the HL was indeed money, contrary to what DT says.
> 
> What I'm even futher curious about is why Tony Ellsworth doesn't go after Specialized???? I'm guessing Spec is a little to big for Ells to intimidate with frivolous suits.


Check the patent dates man, the horst link that specialized uses predates the ICT. If anyone should be suing it should be Specialized, but they obviously let the ICT go for some reason. If anyone was doing their f$Q#$% homework at the damned patent office, we wouldn't be talking about this at all. Just because Tony says ICT works, and that its "unique" over and above the horst link patent, and someone at the patent office bought that load of crap, doesn't mean its true. What I find comical is a complaint about the high cost of frames is going on in one thread, and basically a complaint that Dave didn't get into an expensive legal battle with a competitor in another thread, are simultaneously getting a ton of views and hits, and agreement. Lawyers are expensive, and from what I can tell, Dave basically looked at the TNT design, rode it, didn't feel a whole lot different than the horst link and said, "F$#% IT" I don't need it to make my bikes ride well, and I certainly don't want to be on the phone with dipsh-it ever damned day about how many frames I've sold.

Lets not forget who we are talking about here folks, if one of the EARLY riders and testers of the HL is saying that he doesn't feel a difference between his newly designed bike, and the HL, I for one will give it a shot. Many of you might have been in diapers while he was first riding the HL, so I'd probably defer to his judgement and at least ride it before I bashed it.

For all of you who haven't tried it and are complaining..... well, my advice is to give it a shot first, and have an open mind.

And Zaxxon, what to hell are you talking about? David had an FSR/Specialized decal on the lower chainstay for YEARS. Must have been there for decoration.

And Dave, for the record, many thanks for spending so much time on these forums, and for doing the real research the pointy headed, needle dicked, wanna ride but can't get over the fear of that 6" drop, patent attorneys and marketing directors disguised as bike company owners, won't do. Cheers to you mate. If they only knew half the story, they'd be blushing right now and apologizing to beat hell.


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## SHAHEEB (Dec 4, 2004)

All I can add to this is that Turner bikes and business practices are exceptional. CS is Bar None.

I have been fortunate to own and ride 3 of DT's bikes. They are simply built to last, with a ride quality that made me sell all of my Santa Cruz bikes. 

Are Turners better? To me they are. Is 600$ more per frame worth it? It is if you want something thats going to last and will be backed up by the best service in the business...


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

zaxxon said:


> the ICT patent, which he was supposed to be paying Ellsworth for. Which he never paid, .


If that's true and you're not regurgitating a bunch of poo you happen to hear during your last ellsworth shipment, that's badass.

I *heart* turner.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

oly said:


> Awesome, your so much better than me. When I build mine, I take my time. Also had a friend drop by with his DH bike to show me the new rocco shock, got a phone call, drank some more beer, got my camera, drank some more beer, took photos, locked shop and went inside....
> 
> oh yea, I sure hope your customers appreciate rush jobs.....


I'm not trying to put you down or anything. The customers don't care as long as it works. And I do quality work.


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## drumstix (Dec 31, 2003)

Id like to add my .2 cents regarding this cost issue thats floating around in this thread. You guy's speak as if a Turner frame costs 4 thousand bucks! Bull shieit! Have you priced any highend frames lately, freeride, XC or even a road frame? How about a Specialized SX Trail compared to a RFX, pretty darn close, or the frame that is in the same ball park as a Highline, a Demo 8. Frames made in Asia are creeping up in cost all the time, dont just single out a Turner frame, you might find that Ellsworth, Knolly and a Ventana cost even more just to name a few. A BH carbon road racing frame will cost around $3000.00, a Fox DC fork will cost around $1600.00, a highend wheel set costs $800 bucks, need I go on?

The Turner is a Kona and isnt worth $400-$600 dollars more is just played out and a dead issue. If you like Kona's (hey, great bikes, and helped started this FR, black diamond, out of bounds or what ever you want to call it, heavy duty trailbikes thing) go for it, there is no need to trash or call out a frame maker just because you dont like the price.


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

I dont know why, but im not liking it.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

turnerbikes said:


> *Well, I don't think like a marketing person.*





Grendel said:


> This this statement right here, is what makes me decide to buy a Turner... in all honesty I was in the process of shopping for a 6" trailbike, having Demo'd the Specialized, Giant, Intense, and Santa Cruz offerings I was having a tough time deciding what to get. All of them were good bikes, but seeing the above statement... well that just pretty much made up my mind.
> 
> ... Gathering the funds needed for an RFX now


Well I find that remark to be rather questionable. OH PLEEZ....Tell me TNT isn't marketing??? All marketing is, is a process or technique of promoting, selling, and distributing a product or service. If he's not into marketing why the fancy name for the same rocker tuned suspension desing that mfgs like Kona have been using for years?? Because just like Specialized, Ellsworth and lots of other bike mfgs know, having a cool marketing program, builds hype and that in turn helps sells bikes. Not a marketing guy huh...then you tell me what this is... http://www.turnerbikes.com/TNT/ ...seems like marketing 101 to me.

DT also says he's not motivated by money, yet he dropped the HL only because he didn't want to pay Tony E. to use the ICT. If money isn't an issue what does he care? As others have point out elsewhere the price to use these designs doesn't add up to much per frame, I believe the price for the HL was something like $5 per frame??? Sounds like it's all about money to me. Don't get me wrong, I mean lets be honest everyone works to make money and if you can make more your going to, it's only human.

Seems to be alot of backpedaling here on behalf of Turner bikes. 
1) The HL is the sh!t, yet when they got to pay 2 license fees now it;s not so good.

2)Not into marketing yet they used the HL as a marketing tool for years and then even after it's dropped he starts marketing a "NEW" design platform TNT. Which I might point out has been used for years by Kona and lots of other mfgs.

3) Not in it for the money. Already been covered.

Again, I personally don;t care what design Turner uses, not in the least. I'm not bitter about his dropping the HL, I don;t own a turner and never had plans to buy one. I just have issue with people who say one thing and do the exact oppisite. Why not just say it like it is?? Look at Iron Horse for example, they dumped the HL, went with the DW, no BS. But at least the DW was a newly well thought out design, something that took some skills to produce, unlike TNT.


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## finchy (Jan 21, 2004)

i would rather pay 2 grand or whatever the price of a knolly frame is then the same on a turner frame... dobt i would have said that if turners used FSR... when they where on par

actually i would haev gotten a knolly anwyas cuz they are canadian....go knolly i would ride a knolly if i could afford it but got a canadian made brodie demon instead !


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## SHAHEEB (Dec 4, 2004)

Try $3000 for a Knolly Frame.

Git Sum.


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## Biker75 (Feb 22, 2004)

*Would you have done any different if....*

If THIS  was the bike company you were A) Paying or going to have to pay ICT royalties to and B) most commonly compared to?

Wouldn't you want to distance yourself from that if the function of the alternative was as good?

Watch all 3 videos on this bike...not a second of ride time here folks. Only Mr. E stroking his mammoth, purple headed ego.

Yep, I'm biased (RFX owner for a whole 2 months now). 
Yep, rode 2 FSR's prior to this. 
Yep, best bike I've personally riddin (sp?). 
Yep, best cust serv I've experienced EVER (victim of the DHX-air debacle).

North v. South, Coke v. Pepsi......... 

Jw


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## finchy (Jan 21, 2004)

also dont think people are bashing the quality of the turner product... they are bashing the physics behind the designs and WHY one would want to use an "inferior" design if it only costed the 10 or so more dollars to use the "superior" design...

i'd love to hear Dave Weagles 2 cents on the issue he'd probobly be able to school all of us!!!


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

SHAHEEB said:


> Try $3000 for a Knolly Frame.
> 
> Git Sum.


turner's have great resale value, which says something about the frames...and always in demand...

and i'm beginning to like this frame.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

red5 said:


> 2)Not into marketing yet they used the HL as a marketing tool for years and then even after it's dropped he starts marketing a "NEW" design platform TNT. Which I might point out has been used for years by Kona and lots of other mfgs. Look at Iron Horse for example, they dumped the HL, went with the DW, no BS. But at least the DW was a newly well thought out design, something that took some skills to produce, unlike TNT.


 The funny thing is that kona's were originally horst link too. My buddy had the original horst-link equipped kona king kikapu 5" travel frame with a Z1 and hayes cable disc brakes in 1996. Ten years ago! And kona dropped the horst link as soon as the patent became an issue. Nobody cared then or now.

It's pretty obvious that there are very good and totally crappy versions of every suspension design out there.

Anyways, all you e-engineers, make sure to post when your new bikes are available, since it takes no skills to make a faux-bar I'm sure the bikes will ride great!


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

esquire said:


> Check the patent dates man, the horst link that specialized uses predates the ICT. If anyone should be suing it should be Specialized, but they obviously let the ICT go for some reason. If anyone was doing their f$Q#$% homework at the damned patent office, we wouldn't be talking about this at all. Just because Tony says ICT works, and that its "unique" over and above the horst link patent, and someone at the patent office bought that load of crap, doesn't mean its true. What I find comical is a complaint about the high cost of frames is going on in one thread, and basically a complaint that Dave didn't get into an expensive legal battle with a competitor in another thread, are simultaneously getting a ton of views and hits, and agreement. Lawyers are expensive, and from what I can tell, Dave basically looked at the TNT design, rode it, didn't feel a whole lot different than the horst link and said, "F$#% IT" I don't need it to make my bikes ride well, and I certainly don't want to be on the phone with dipsh-it ever damned day about how many frames I've sold.
> 
> Lets not forget who we are talking about here folks, if one of the EARLY riders and testers of the HL is saying that he doesn't feel a difference between his newly designed bike, and the HL, I for one will give it a shot. Many of you might have been in diapers while he was first riding the HL, so I'd probably defer to his judgement and at least ride it before I bashed it.
> 
> ...


I never said anything about which patent came first, I know that the HL predates the ICT. I actually only brought up Spec being sued by Ells as a joke. As for Spec suing Ells, well I don't beleive that could happen. The HL patent calls for the HL pivot to be placed in a very specific point below the the rear axle. The Ells bikes have a pivot that is more inline with the axle adn this is probably why Ells has been able to avoid any issue with Spec.

As to DT being one of the early testers/riders and saying he doesn't feel a difference, I believe him...sort of. I do indeed believe that the shorter travel bikes that he builds are not going to show any noticable issues, however the Highline will indeed have "brake jack" issues, regardless of what anyone says, it's inherent in the design - (mac strut) Single Pivot.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

FM said:


> The funny thing is that kona's were originally horst link too. My buddy had the original horst-link equipped kona king kikapu 5" travel frame with a Z1 and hayes cable disc brakes in 1996. Ten years ago! And kona dropped the horst link as soon as the patent became an issue. Nobody cared then or now.
> 
> It's pretty obvious that there are very good and totally crappy versions of every suspension design out there.
> 
> Anyways, all you e-engineers, make sure to post when your new bikes are available, since it takes no skills to make a faux-bar I'm sure the bikes will ride great!


Did kona make a big deal out the fact that they used a Horst Link? Was it part of their marketing ( I know DT isn't into marketing  ) campaign for years?

Intense used the HL for years too, so what. Nobody really cared about that either. My issue with Turner doesn't have as much to do with them dropping the HL, as it does have to do with some of the questionable things that have been said and Turners marketing of a design that been around since Moses walked the earth as some remarkable idea that he though up.

I agree with you, I don;t believe any design is the be all end all. Every design has it's positive and negative attributes, what it all comes down to is find out what works best for you.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

Biker75 said:


> If THIS  was the bike company you were A) Paying or going to have to pay ICT royalties to and B) most commonly compared to?
> 
> Wouldn't you want to distance yourself from that if the function of the alternative was as good?
> 
> ...


Turners have never been and should never be compared to an Ellsworth. However, they also shouldn;t have to be compared to a Kona either, but they are now, especially for the price difference. I always looked at Turners as more of a high dollar/custom horst link alternative to a Specialized, which to me was more acceptable.


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## Leprechaun (Sep 5, 2004)

*Too funny, too pathetic*

I find it interesting just how gullible we Americans can be. It amazes me how the main antagonists of Turner bikes are those that haven't even riden the new versions. Rather than try the bikes themselves and see how they ride, they'd rather read their magazines full of adds written by the likes of companies looking to make a living. Can you blame these companies for taking advantage of something we so freely give them, our trust, simply because they patented some obscure wheel path and tell us it's the answer to all our riding prayers? Honestly smell the smoke being blown up your a** and think for yourself. Better yet, try the bike, whatever the design, and if you like it then great. Don't blame Turner for deciding to side step the B**LSH*T. Seems to me like he made a common sense move that any businessman would have. If you don't like it shop elsewhere.

Oh, and don't blame a suspension design because you're a piss poor rider. The rider makes the bike look good, not the other way around. I think of all the non HL, VPP, DW, etc, pro riders that flat out rip and it seems pretty obvious to me that it goes far beyond any one suspension design.


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## Jii (Dec 29, 2004)

First of all, I would like to thank David for replying. I never said that your bikes weren't beautiful works of art, they undoubtedly are. Finchy already said what I was originally thinking (even though I don't know if he's being sarcastic or not):



finchy said:


> also dont think people are bashing the quality of the turner product... they are bashing the physics behind the designs and WHY one would want to use an "inferior" design if it only costed the 10 or so more dollars to use the "superior" design...


I am an Ellsworth owner but I deeply sympathize with DT if the ICT patent makes it impossible (physically or emotionally) for DT to use the HL on his bikes. Like Steelduck said, if I pay top dollar for a frame, I want the top dollar technology. I'm very sorry, but you can not argue about the fact that a single pivot design does jack while braking and a HL does not. VPP does work very well too.

Maybe the US-made issue is not as big a deal for us foreigners, because I would gladly pay 1800 $ for a Spesh SX trail frame or 2300$ for a Demo instead of 2100 $ for a Highline, even though I think the Highline is more beautiful. Guess why? Because I know I won't get squatting or brake jack. Simple as that. I wouldn't pay 2000 $ for my Joker, but 1500 $ is acceptable, because it is beautiful, handmade (in the US), anodized and it is a working single pivot. The Santa Cruz bullit would be a safe bet in the same prize range, but I wouldnt pay more than 1200 $ for one.

Now, if I got a Higline with a HL or ICT design, I could easily consider paying 2500 $ for it.

Like I said, I really appreciate DT coming forward. I hope your business isn't affected by switching to TNT, but I personally will not buy a Turner with it. I'd rather go Taiwan. All the best though to you and your company.


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## esquire (Jan 12, 2004)

*Well, yes and no....*



Jii said:


> First of all, I would like to thank David for replying. I never said that your bikes weren't beautiful works of art, they undoubtedly are. Finchy already said what I was originally thinking (even though I don't know if he's being sarcastic or not):
> 
> I am an Ellsworth owner but I deeply sympathize with DT if the ICT patent makes it impossible (physically or emotionally) for DT to use the HL on his bikes. Like Steelduck said, if I pay top dollar for a frame, I want the top dollar technology. I'm very sorry, but you can not argue about the fact that a single pivot design does jack while braking and a HL does not. VPP does work very well too.
> 
> ...


Actually, what Steelduck said was, and I'm paraphrasing here, "If I pay top dollar, I want the best, hype or not" which, correct me if I'm wrong, puts a price on hype. If you want to pay for hype, I'm ok with that, its your money. I'm about the ride, and I'm about how it rides for me in my given application. I'm also about trust, until someone shoves that trust up my as$. So, Dave's never done anything, not in the Customer Service area, not in the production area, not in the pricing area, that would lead me to distrust him. That goes a long way for me, and if he says its as good, better, or whatever, that will at least give me a reason to get on his newly designed frame and test it myself. Trust but verify....

Now, it TE came out and said, "I have a bike that is 99% efficient and can handle regular 20' road gaps..." Um, I'd need a bit more verification before I spent any money on that claim. All of you who have never tried the TNT, try it first, and don't be a hater, and keep an open mind. Nick from Intense told me a story once about a demo day they did with a local shop, a guy came up and was complaining in front of a lot of people that Intenses rear hangers were soft. So Nick offered him a bike to try, and he took it around the block, came back, busted hanger.... Made a HUGE, and loud, deal about it, Nick apologized profusely, took the bike from him and handed it to a mechanic. The guy left.... A few minutes later, the mechanic discovered the problem, the guy was GRINDING on the rear deraileur up and down the sidewalk and up and down the stairs. So was that an "open mind"? No, it wasn't. All anyone should ask for with the TNT design is an open mind, and a real test. If you still don't like it, well, thats up to you, but at least you tried it before going around and bashing the "theory" and "reasons" behind the thing before even testing it.

I feel that some guys are on a personal jihad against the new Turner design, which is sad, really. I guess repetition creates reality. If people say that DT dropped the HL because he didn't want to pay TE licensing fees for it, eventually that becomes true, right? Just keep saying it, keep saying it, and maybe, just maybe, it might become credible. Fact is, you DON'T know the underlying reason why the HL was dumped. Dave, who is a documentedly credible person, says the new design is as good if not better in some situations, than the previous bikes he designed. TE says its because he didn't get paid, who you gonna believe?


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## steelduck (Jul 12, 2004)

Ok, english is not my native language. what I meant with the hype comment was that people are willing to pay for the prestige of the frame, but it needs to have the functionality.
I totally agree on the Trust and Customer service thing. It would be really hard to buy an Ellsworth, becouse of the business ethics and I am really happy about the customer service I have recieved from Intense and Santa Cruz. I have also only heard good things about Turner Customer Service and product quality.

What is bugging my is that I find it really hard to believe that TNT is the first single pivot system on this planet that does not behave like a single pivot, as some of the Turner homies are trying to say. It even says on the Turner site:

"Under ultimate traction situations there is a calculated compression of the rear suspension, although un-felt, this can have a stabilizing effect." 

"Stabilizing effect!!" is that a new marketing name for the Brake Jack? Come on guys, Single pivot is a single pivot is a single pivot, no matter what name you give it. 

I find it irritating that the "Flag Bearer" of the Horst Link drops the HL and tries to hype that the single pivot all of a sudden as good as the HL. The new turners are probaply the finest single pivots on this planet, but they are still single pivots, even if you "hide" that behind TNT acronym. (at least this is how it looks like to a consumer)


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

oly said:


> Thanks to David and Greg and everyone else at Turner! Such a beautiful frame.....
> 
> just the first photo.....
> 
> ...


Congrats Oly!!!!!!


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

wow just read the whole thread and it still amazes me that this thread took a turn for the worse with a big Horst link vs. non-horst link controversy. 

Damon - congrats on the new frame, it looks amazing and really well built. I bet the thing rips it up. I wish you many many miles of freeride and DH fun on that thing!!

Cheers,

Mark


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## esquire (Jan 12, 2004)

*I think....*



steelduck said:


> Ok, english is not my native language. what I meant with the hype comment was that people are willing to pay for the prestige of the frame, but it needs to have the functionality.
> I totally agree on the Trust and Customer service thing. It would be really hard to buy an Ellsworth, becouse of the business ethics and I am really happy about the customer service I have recieved from Intense and Santa Cruz. I have also only heard good things about Turner Customer Service and product quality.
> 
> What is bugging my is that I find it really hard to believe that TNT is the first single pivot system on this planet that does not behave like a single pivot, as some of the Turner homies are trying to say. It even says on the Turner site:
> ...


I think what they mean by the stabilizing effect and ultimate traction situations, is going uphill, not down, where brakejack would be an issue. What they mean by this, and this is just my humble opinion, is the comression of the shock assists in traction going uphill, by keeping the rear wheel on the ground. I ride a hardtail a lot on XC, and there are certain times that I have difficulty keeping the rear tire from spinning out on some steep stuff, that on a full suspension, it seems to grab and hold. Especially over small rocks and roots, the compression of the shock aids in the traction. This contrasted with a VPP style bike, or even HL pivot bike, that might stiffen under pedal load, and have a "hardtail" like feeling. I had a Giant NRS some years back that did this quite badly, it felt like a hardtail, with hardtail traits, both good and bad.

The long and the short of it is that there are a ton of designs out there, and EVERY one of them has at least one drawback that another design might be able to fix, but at the same time, that other design might have 2 drawbacks. See what I'm getting at here? I don't know for sure if the TNT has as much power transfer as an HL or ICT bike, but thats what I love about mountain biking, I get to figure these things out, what I like, for myself. Sherwood Gibson, for years, talked about how stiff he could make a rear triangle on a bike, BECAUSE he wasn't using a horst link. His claim was, and still is, the negligible effects on shock compression on his bike, are more than made up for in stiffness and traction. Sherwoods frames are more expensive than Davids, why? He didn't switch over from paying licensing fees, and he sells some damned fine pieces of art/machinery. I wouldn't want Sherwood to switch entirely over to doing a horst link, why? Because there is a great option out there, and market for his frames. His frames do the same thing, get us from point A to point B, with a different level of comfort and style, than another bike. I think Mongoose still uses the horst link, don't they? Are they better than Turner too?


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

esquire said:


> I think Mongoose still uses the horst link, don't they?


No, they don't. Mongoose uses a version of I-Drive they call Freedrive.


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## mtbames190 (Nov 18, 2005)

how much did the frame cost and wats the travel on that bad boy.


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## Nick. (Dec 19, 2003)

BEAUTIFUL bike Oly. I'll be looking forward to ride feedback.


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## Jii (Dec 29, 2004)

esquire said:


> I think what they mean by the stabilizing effect and ultimate traction situations, is going uphill, not down, where brakejack would be an issue.


Ok, so Highlines are uphill bikes?



> Sherwood Gibson, for years, talked about how stiff he could make a rear triangle on a bike, BECAUSE he wasn't using a horst link. His claim was, and still is, the negligible effects on shock compression on his bike, are more than made up for in stiffness and traction. Sherwoods frames are more expensive than Davids, why? He didn't switch over from paying licensing fees, and he sells some damned fine pieces of art/machinery.


Errr..No?

X5, horst link 1595 $
El Chamuco, single pivot, 1595 $
El Cuervo, single pivot w/ floating brake 2249 $ +179 $

All seem perfectly fine pricingwise to me, ok, the El Cuervo is a bit more than the Highline, but you still get fully active suspension.

Ventanas, Ellsworths and Turners are indeed very beautiful, handmade and all that. I just don't swalloe the TNT thing. Like I said earlier, I would gladly pay 2500 $ for a Highline with HL/ICT, since I prefer going downhill.


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## G-AIR (Jan 23, 2004)

*Just a few points*

Just a few points and observations.
- Turner build quality and CS are unsurpassed in the bike industry

- we don't know the real story to why Turner dropped the FSR and ICT patents.

- Ellsworth (the person) is a POS

- no one ever complains about break jack with Ventanas...another great company whose bikes cost more than Turner.

- Red 5...try the bike before you keep spouting off anymore

- to compare a Kona to a Turner is a joke (quality, pivots, build materials, CS).

- Konas aren't that cheap anyways.

- I know they are the best in the world, but its funny how a lot of the world cup guys all win on a single pivot...Peat, The Kona guy, Gracia, etc.

- how come noone complains about the high price of other singel pivots like: Foes, Orange, Morewood, etc...

If you have never dealt with Turner you don't know what you are missing. Based on my experiences over the past four years I think I will always own at least one Turner. I have never heard a single complaint about a Turner by an owner. I have heard complaints about all the other major players.

Now lets all go out and ride!


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## esquire (Jan 12, 2004)

*Wait just a minute...*



Jii said:


> Ok, so Highlines are uphill bikes?
> 
> Errr..No?
> 
> ...


Errrrr...No....!

X-5, not a horst link, not sure where you got that info, and if you want to buy th 04 blowout priced bike at $1595, thats great, the 05's I beleive were $1895 and the 06's, I'm not sure about.

El Chamuco, single pivot, without a link on the seatstay, $1595, correct, but its also being ushered out the door so thats basically a going away present price.

El Cuervo, More expensive than the Highline, single pivot, proves my point.

El Salty, Um, without quad bearings, $1995.00, single pivot with a seatstay link.

All great frames, but don't think because there is a blowout on older frames and soon to be discontinued models, Turner pricing is higher.

I'm still missing where Turner states that on downhill runs, the lack of a horst link helps traction. I guess I'm missing that one. I prefer to go downhill too, but the lack of a horstlink won't sway me a bit. If it becomes a problem, a floating brake from braketherapy would do the trick. In fact, that might be a good test, really. Trying to figure out if there is a ton of brakejack on the highline, and doing the test, same mountain, same rider, with and without a floating brake. But, you'd all have to question my "marketing" by the time I'm done and my honesty, right? 

Oh, I missed this part, NICE BIKE OLY!!!!! Have fun on that thing, I like the final look.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

Jii said:


> Like I said earlier, I would gladly pay 2500 $ for a Highline with HL/ICT, since I prefer going downhill.


You bring up a good point. I can't tell you how many non horst link bikes I've seen that run out from underneath their owners when you try to ride them downhill. Konas, foes, ventanas, banshees, rocky mountains...........it's nuts. My single pivot DHR takes off and hides in the bushes and starts crying everytime I try to start coasting over rocks.

I tried to use the brakes once and it blew up. Nasty single pivot aluminum everywhere, with guts. What a mess.

Boy I tell ya...........nothing but superior suspension designs with lots of creaky pivots and pretty pictures on website for me from now on!!


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## matthew (Oct 25, 2004)

SERIOUSLY...



G-AIR said:


> Just a few points and observations.
> - Turner build quality and CS are unsurpassed in the bike industry
> 
> - we don't know the real story to why Turner dropped the FSR and ICT patents.
> ...


.....

the internet is a great recource but it is filled with way too many people who spout of other people opinions as there own just to stroke there own ego and hear themselves heard.
- I have ridden single pivot bikes and noticed brake jack.
- I own a demo 9 which dosnt brake jack
- I own an ellsworth ID with no brake jack
- I took a long ride on a 6pack/ RFX at interbike last year and couldn't feel any noticable brake jack and I was sceptical. The bike was solid and tight- climbing and decending, flats and choppy ledges.

Given the choice again I would happily swap out my Ells for the RFX.
I'd much rather buy a bike from someone that puts his energy into bike design, performance and quality than a company that focuses on patent enforcement.

No - I dont own a turner but I'm sure that in a couple of years time when people are over these "marketing discussions" people will still be loving their Turners.


----------



## Jii (Dec 29, 2004)

X-5 was my bad. It has a regular faux bar. Not bashing single pivots per se, hell, I ride one. If i had up to 2500 bucks to spend on a new frame, I would buy a HL/ICT/VPP equipped bike for sure. If Ellsworth made faux bars, I would'nt buy one, neither if Specialized made one and so on...Single pivot designs are not worth top dollar, IMO. That's it, simple really.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

Jii said:


> X-5 was my bad. It has a regular faux bar. Not bashing single pivots per se, hell, I ride one. If i had up to 2500 bucks to spend on a new frame, I would buy a HL/ICT/VPP equipped bike for sure. If Ellsworth made faux bars, I would'nt buy one, neither if Specialized made one and so on...Single pivot designs are not worth top dollar, IMO. That's it, simple really.


You ever actually stop to think that the location of that single pivot has a SHlTLOAD to do with how a bike rides?

Look at where the pivot on your joker is. Now look at where turner and a bunch of other frame makers put theirs. Just think about it.

And yes your joker brakes like sh1t. I will agree with you there.


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## [email protected] (Jul 13, 2005)

First of all...
That's a sick rig there, Oly !

> What's wrong with SinglePivots ?
Nothing. There's always a home for them. But undoubtedly, there is a difference between the beautiful simplicity of this design versus one with a 4b-HL.

I own bikes that use these two designs and even though I am not a Pro rider, I notice the difference.
In the end, it's all about the application, and most importantly, the rider's ability. 
If you're good, you'll cope and make the most with what you've got, tho' you may work a bit harder.

BTW: For the price of a Highline, I'd be inclined to first give a chance at the new frame out by our homies at Transition Bikes... these local guys have managed to create solid products backed by many stories of great customer service. 
Their latest is the Gran Mal... check it out...

http://www.transitionbikes.com/GranMal.cfm


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

MMcG said:


> wow just read the whole thread and it still amazes me that this thread took a turn for the worse with a big Horst link vs. non-horst link controversy.
> 
> Damon - congrats on the new frame, it looks amazing and really well built. I bet the thing rips it up. I wish you many many miles of freeride and DH fun on that thing!!
> 
> ...


Thanks Mark. Im stoked to have the frame. Cant wait for those shore and whistler day trips!! I knew the thread would go "downhill" in this forum. So many people just like to stir sh!t without any real backing or experience. After a little more time on the bike I intend a better review of the ride, and resolution to a few small setup issues ive encountrered. It is still too early to leave good info. Im sure that thread will end up being just like this thread with a bunch of haters wasting their day making pointless comments about things they know little about.

David- Thanks for an awesome ride! Keep up the good work!!.


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

mtbames190 said:


> how much did the frame cost and wats the travel on that bad boy.


http://www.go-ride.com/prod_frames_turner.html

2nd frame under the DHR.

more info also on the Turner website.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

Are the pivots bushing or needle bearing? Emailed Turner sat but no reply. Looks typical Turner bushing.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

dogonfr said:


> Are the pivots bushing or needle bearing? Emailed Turner sat but no reply. Looks typical Turner bushing.


Needle bearings like the DHR.


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## steelduck (Jul 12, 2004)

OLY: OK, could you please point the hate comments without backing information. The point was that it is a pity that Turner dropped the HL and TNT is still a single pivot, with single pivot characteristics. I would LOVE to get a HL Highline - because: 

- I think the HL Prototypes of the Highline were great, and I was really looking forward for it.
- Turner makes kick ass products with excellent quality
- Turner has a great CS reputation

The reason people are *****ing is that Turner has told us that HL is superior and now we cannot have it anymore. It is not like ventana, who has done single pivot frames all the time. ie. No hate here - just a feel of loss. 

I would really like to hear what is the REAL story behind the dropping the HL. Is there non disclosure agreement between Ellsworth and Turner that forbids the truth coming out?

PS. I think that the TNT Highline is really cool bike and it must be a riot to ride - but I cannot help thinking that it could have been even more fun with the HL... It looks damn fine even with the TNT.


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## AW_ (Jan 3, 2006)

That is one of the sickest bikes made today, period. 

This horst vs. non horst bickering is rediculous. It shouldn't even be on the radar, IMO. Do you guys adjust your stem height with 1mm spacers or what?

Also, you really can't lump single pivots into the same category for suspension feel / brake jack / etc. The pivot placement makes a huge difference. 

There are a lot of attributes that make up a frame, and in the grand scheme of things, tnt vs horst is a minute detail. IMO, more important design details here are lateral stiffness, geometry, durability, quality of construction, and overall feel when you are riding it.

I hit that big gap if my bike had a horst link...


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

kidwoo said:


> Needle bearings like the DHR.


Thankwoo


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## dropmachine.com (Apr 8, 2004)

I would guess that 90% of the riders couldn't tell the difference between the two frames in a blind test. Its all mental for them. 

If you have to rely a horst link to make your bike ride right, you are just a **** rider in the first place, and a link above or below the dropout ain't gonna change that. Can't amke it up that hill? Slow as poop down that rock garden? All the pivots in the world aren't gonna help you.


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## free-rider_down-hiller (Jun 1, 2005)

This is a nice big thread its keeps me entertained at 2am!


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## drumstix (Dec 31, 2003)

dropmachine.com said:


> I would guess that 90% of the riders couldn't tell the difference between the two frames in a blind test. Its all mental for them.
> 
> If you have to rely a horst link to make your bike ride right, you are just a **** rider in the first place, and a link above or below the dropout ain't gonna change that. Can't amke it up that hill? Slow as poop down that rock garden? All the pivots in the world aren't gonna help you.


Good points dropmeister, Ive found that body english makes the bike handle better/worse than a pivot location esp going downhill.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

dropmachine.com said:


> I would guess that 90% of the riders couldn't tell the difference between the two frames in a blind test. Its all mental for them.
> 
> If you have to rely a horst link to make your bike ride right, you are just a **** rider in the first place, and a link above or below the dropout ain't gonna change that. Can't amke it up that hill? Slow as poop down that rock garden? All the pivots in the world aren't gonna help you.


For the record, I never said that a HL makes people better riders or that without one you'd ride like crap. The point I was making, had to do with the ride qualities, not quality of the ride mind you which are two different things, of a bike with & without a HL. NOBODY, absolutely NO ONE, not even the almighty Dave Turner can argue that there isn't a difference between the ride quality of a SP vs. a HL, because if there wasn;t a difference companies like Brake Therapy wouldn't be in business. Physics is physics and not even DT can avoid that.


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## gurp (Jan 20, 2004)

I have one point to make - the group with by FAR the largest R&D wallet is Honda. Anyone notice what kind of suspension design they use?


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

gurp said:


> I have one point to make - the group with by FAR the largest R&D wallet is Honda. Anyone notice what kind of suspension design they use?


Horst Link?


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

gurp said:


> I have one point to make - the group with by FAR the largest R&D wallet is Honda. Anyone notice what kind of suspension design they use?


 your an idiot


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

red5 said:


> For the record, I never said that a HL makes people better riders or that without one you'd ride like crap. The point I was making, had to do with the ride qualities, not quality of the ride mind you which are two different things, of a bike with & without a HL. NOBODY, absolutely NO ONE, not even the almighty Dave Turner can argue that there isn't a difference between the ride quality of a SP vs. a HL, because if there wasn;t a difference companies like Brake Therapy wouldn't be in business. Physics is physics and not even DT can avoid that.


are you god? you would r00L


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## dropmachine.com (Apr 8, 2004)

red5 said:


> For the record, I never said that a HL makes people better riders or that without one you'd ride like crap. The point I was making, had to do with the ride qualities, not quality of the ride mind you which are two different things, of a bike with & without a HL. NOBODY, absolutely NO ONE, not even the almighty Dave Turner can argue that there isn't a difference between the ride quality of a SP vs. a HL, because if there wasn;t a difference companies like Brake Therapy wouldn't be in business. Physics is physics and not even DT can avoid that.


I agree, there are differences in ride quality and characteristics. But, my point was, most riders will never really be able to truely feel those differences on a ride. Most of them (me included) arent skilled enough to pick up on the subtle differences a horst link can make. Keep in mind that an HL alone does not guarantee a smoother, better ride either.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

red5 said:


> NO ONE, not even the almighty Dave Turner can argue that there isn't a difference between the ride quality of a SP vs. a HL, because if there wasn;t a difference companies like Brake Therapy wouldn't be in business. .


He makes kits for intense m1s and big hits too. 

You bought the marketing hype that specialized puts out and tell yourself it's true because that's what you own.

I had an old specialized DH bike I used to ride almost every weekend, I've ridden several big hits as well as demos. My LBS that I help out with seasonally is a specialized dealer and every year we get a crop of demo bikes for rentals at northstar. There's no real difference in how those bikes track under braking than my single pivot DHR. They're actually extremely similar because the pivots, virtual and real are within millimeters of each other. If you knew what you were talking about, you'd realize this. But you don't. You ride a bike with a little 24" rear wheel that hangs up like b1tch on rocks which also helps it brake like sh1t but tell yourself how much better it is because that's what you spent your money on.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> He makes kits for intense m1s and big hits too.
> 
> You bought the marketing hype that specialized puts out and tell yourself it's true because that's what you own.
> 
> I had an old specialized DH bike I used to ride almost every weekend, I've ridden several big hits as well as demos. My LBS that I help out with seasonally is a specialized dealer and every year we get a crop of demo bikes for rentals at northstar. There's no real difference in how those bikes track under braking than my single pivot DHR. They're actually extremely similar because the pivots, virtual and real are within millimeters of each other. If you knew what you were talking about, you'd realize this. But you don't. You ride a bike with a little 24" rear wheel that hangs up like b1tch on rocks which also helps it brake like sh1t but tell yourself how much better it is because that's what you spent your money on.


  Yeah, yeah, I've already been down that road. Do a search.  

Actually, not. Granted I own a Big Hit and personally never said it was the best bike made, nor do I claim that FSR's are the best. Show me one post contained in this thread where I state either???

BTW, I bought my Big Hit in 2003 for 2 reasons- 1) 24 rear wheel, which I liked 2 years ago (what was I thinking) & 2) independent braking characteristics. Regardless of what bike I own, I don;t claim that any design is superior, actually if you could read objectively, you'd see that contained within this very thread I stated just the opposite and that every design has it's attributes and negatives, including FSR's. So regardless of whatever point your trying to make, your talking out of your @ss if you claim to know what I'm thinking when it comes to bikes because you have know idea.

As for not knowing what I'm talking about, sorry, but I do. I can tell the difference between the ride characteristics of a SP & HL, even if alot of riders can't. I've ridden several different bikes over the years and I know what brake jack feels like and the FSR exhibits no detectable traces of such trait. But whatever, you keep believing that your DHR is similiar to a FSR, I won;t try to convince you otherwise.

BTW, just for your future reference KW. I've been looking at getting new bike in the near future including the Morewood Izumu (w/Floater), Demo 8, Mountain Cycle 9.5 (w/floater), Canfield F1 and others. Sorry to ruin your delusional thoughts and ramblings, I hope you can get over it.


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

Thanks for keeping my thread alive..... you guys can discuss, argue, bicker all you want... it keeps my photos up at the top of the list for all to see.... haha.


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## Renegade (May 10, 2004)

red5
I can tell the difference between the ride characteristics of a SP & HL said:


> Are you in any way related to Jayem?


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## Renegade (May 10, 2004)

red5 said:


> I never said anything negative about Boxxers?? I'm hurt.


 Jayem swears that he could tell the difference between a horst link and a non -horst linked bike blind-folded. He's a sensitive guy. Deep down, you must be a sensitive guy too.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

Renegade said:


> Are you in any way related to Jayem?


I never said anything negative about Boxxers?? I'm hurt.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

Renegade said:


> Jayem swears that he could tell the difference between a horst link and a non -horst linked bike blind-folded. He's a sensitive guy. Deep down, you must be a sensitive guy too.


Nah, I just have experience riding alot of different bikes. From high pivot bikes like Bullits & Morewoods, to FSR's like my Big Hit & the older 2000 Spec S-Works DH, to Kona rocker link types, to the KHS Dominatrix & DH200 and even the old school Psycle Werks Mad Dog DH.


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## Renegade (May 10, 2004)

red5 said:


> Nah, I just have experience riding alot of different bikes. From high pivot bikes like Bullits & Morewoods, to FSR's like my Big Hit & the older 2000 Spec S-Works DH, to Kona rocker link types, to the KHS Dominatrix & DH200 and even the old school Psycle Werks Mad Dog DH.


I'm sorry I called you a sensitive guy. I guess that there will be no group hugs here today.
Okay everybody, continue to fight amoungst yourselves. Don't forget to be nasty and hit below the belt.


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

Just a refresher what this thread is about.....










42.5 lbs as pictured. will drop 2.25 lbs when I put on the kenda tires and mag pedals I just ordered from BTI.... and thats with a 500lb steel shock spring. I just missed out on a 500 Ti... bummer.... still not bad being 40-41 lbs. (my DHR was about 46lbs..). When it comes to race/whislter time I may get a stronger wheelset and run the wire bead tires..... weight at whistler isnt such a concern..... For racing?, depends on course. Some places we race light is good, others you need the tanks to make it through the rocks....

Im also working on a couple small compatibility issues. First issue is with the Sram front derailler and the E-13 DRS (36t). The Sram derailler is really wide at the pivot and it hits the swing link when you try to get the derailler over the excessive E-13 bash. Thats why there is a Raceface bash in that photo.....The raceface basah small enough to let the derailler clear. I've since swapped the Deore derailler I had on my 5-Spot with the Sram one and put the E-13 bash back on. The pivot on the Shimano deraillers is pretty narrow and lets you get the derailler high enough to shift to the middle ring.

The other issue is that I have a little chain drop using the DRS when pedaling backwards when in the 36 front and upper 4 back. . Im new to the 2 ring DRS and not positive I have it perfectly set up. It seems my chainline is a little out. I am using a FSA 83 x 128 bb with older Raceface North Shore cranks. Im thinking that the BB/Crank combo might not be perfect. A while back I had a firend with a truvativ BB/Raceface crank combo that gave him troubles making his chainline out of wack. When he went to Raceface/Raceface combo the chainline problem went away. My cranks are 5 bikes old (about 4 years) so maybe its time to upgrade.... This one will take a little more time to diagnose. One thing I may do is bore out the e-13 mounting plate to go over the BB shell. Right now it is setup under the BB. This should bring my chainline back into spec. I still cant figure why the guide has the ISCG mounting holes, but is made to go under the cup. A friend at FSA said there are still some glitches with the 83/150 "standard" when setting up for 2 ring bikes. Seems like this one may take some trial and error.....

So what Ive leaned so far:

Sram FD + E-13 DRS 36t = No go.... for now. 
Shimano FD + E-13 DRS 36 = Good.
Sram FD + Guide using normal sized 36t bash = Good.

E-13 DRS with 1 plate & FSA 83 x 128bb / Raceface NS cranks give some chain drop in upper cassette cogs. More testing needed.

More feedback to come.........


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## Internal14 (Jan 21, 2004)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gurp
I have one point to make - the group with by FAR the largest R&D wallet is Honda. Anyone notice what kind of suspension design they use? 

your an idiot 


"Hey, Pot...meet Mr. Kettle."

OMFG....would you all just STFU and go ride your bike>


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

oly said:


> Just a refresher what this thread is about.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[email protected] that's PURDY all built up!!!! Regardless of all the BS that's been said, that is a sweet rig, congrats!


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

red5 said:


> So regardless of whatever point your trying to make, your talking out of your @ss if you claim to know what I'm thinking when it comes to bikes because you have know idea.


You're deep. Sorry for trying to approach that.

Wha't I'd actually like you to address is mostly this.



> 2) independent braking characteristics.


All you've done is state it with no backing. I've owned 6 fsr bikes over the last 7 years, 6 specialized and one norco. Enlighten me because I've ridden plenty of single pivots that behave the exact same way or better on the brakey brakes. So please, spread the wealth. What are the deep secrets you hold?



> As for not knowing what I'm talking about, sorry, but I do.


Sweet man. Let's focus then. You think that a bike like the highline will ride (brake) noticibly better with a horst link similar to what specialized does. I disagree based on what I've heard from someone who designs suspension systems for a living but also based on my own experience with mostly specialized bikes.

I spent 4 years in engineering school so I'm not afraid of a few pictures or force diagrams on the matter. So far what you've put out there is nothing more than a rehash of what I can read on a company's website.


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

Very nice bike Oly. I bet the stiffness of that Highline rear has to be super making it track really well. I know the geo will be spot on, like my two Turners.

I wish we had more stuff around here that justified building up one of those. My big bike collects a lot of because I find my 6-pack is good enough for our local terrain. 

BTW, I'm not one who can really tell any braking difference between HL and SP either. I own 3 HLs and 2 SP, so it's not like I don't have a lot of time on both. I do like the 6-pack better than my Bullit in a lot of ways, but braking isn't one of them.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

Hey oly:

If I mail you an 8.5 x 2.5 shock to put on that thing would you get me some measurements?


----------



## knollybikes.com (Jan 8, 2004)

oly said:


> Just a refresher what this thread is about.....
> 
> The other issue is that I have a little chain drop using the DRS when pedaling backwards when in the 36 front and upper 4 back. . Im new to the 2 ring DRS and not positive I have it perfectly set up. It seems my chainline is a little out. I am using a FSA 83 x 128 bb with older Raceface North Shore cranks. Im thinking that the BB/Crank combo might not be perfect. A while back I had a firend with a truvativ BB/Raceface crank combo that gave him troubles making his chainline out of wack. When he went to Raceface/Raceface combo the chainline problem went away. My cranks are 5 bikes old (about 4 years) so maybe its time to upgrade.... This one will take a little more time to diagnose. One thing I may do is bore out the e-13 mounting plate to go over the BB shell. Right now it is setup under the BB. This should bring my chainline back into spec. I still cant figure why the guide has the ISCG mounting holes, but is made to go under the cup. A friend at FSA said there are still some glitches with the 83/150 "standard" when setting up for 2 ring bikes. Seems like this one may take some trial and error.....
> 
> ...


Hey Oly:

Is your chain new? Give it a day or two of riding. Typically, a chain is very "tight" laterally when it's new. Once it's broken in (usually only an hour or two of riding), it has much more lateral play and it shouldn't drop. I have found this to be very true in the 83mm BB / 150mm rear end department. An engineering budy who is one of the chief designers at Raceface mentioned this to me when we had shiffing issues with our first 83mm BB / 150mm rear end bike and he was totally right.

Cheers,


----------



## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> Hey oly:
> 
> If I mail you an 8.5 x 2.5 shock to put on that thing would you get me some measurements?


only if i can keep it....  You know my address still? Send away and i'll get you your numbers.... or i could just put in a stick with holes 8.5" apart to mimic the i2i... no need to measure in the compressed state is there?? Just send me a stick.... haha.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

oly said:


> only if i can keep it....  You know my address still? Send away and i'll get you your numbers.... or i could just put in a stick with holes 8.5" apart to mimic the i2i... no need to measure in the compressed state is there?? Just send me a stick.... haha.


Yeah you could do that too. I was thinking about getting some ride feedback as well though.

But yeah.....go with the stick. I'll send you a shock after you've got some ride time as is.

Thanks man.


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

knollybikes.com said:


> Hey Oly:
> 
> Is your chain new? Give it a day or two of riding. Typically, a chain is very "tight" laterally when it's new. Once it's broken in (usually only an hour or two of riding), it has much more lateral play and it shouldn't drop. I have found this to be very true in the 83mm BB / 150mm rear end department. An engineering budy who is one of the chief designers at Raceface mentioned this to me when we had shiffing issues with our first 83mm BB / 150mm rear end bike and he was totally right.
> 
> Cheers,


noel,

Thanks for spending the time to reply to this. The chain is actually off my DHR from last yea, so its well worn. A new one is in the mail, but you know how it is when you get a new frame.... gotta build it right away.

Any other tips that may help me with the chainline? I havent had the chance to measure the current setup yet... but the # Ive heard form a few sources is 57.5mm. All i can really think of is boring out the e-13 plate to mount it direct to the ISCG tabs, rather than under the BB.

-damon


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> Yeah you could do that too. I was thinking about getting some ride feedback as well though.
> 
> But yeah.....go with the stick. I'll send you a shock after you've got some ride time as is.
> 
> Thanks man.


Ok, i will go with the static stick in place of the shock for now....

Should I set my A-C in any specific spot? Right now my 40 is set to 8" and the lower clamps are stock from factory... not positive the A-C... but I can adjust if you have a certain number in mind....


----------



## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

oly said:


> Ok, i will go with the static stick in place of the shock for now....
> 
> Should I set my A-C in any specific spot? Right now my 40 is set to 8" and the lower clamps are stock from factory... not positive the A-C... but I can adjust if you have a certain number in mind....


Hell if you're offering..................set that thing at 7" if you get bored one night and measure it like that.

I basically want to know if you can get a 66-67HA with the lower BB with a 7/7ish bike out of it.

Thanks a bunch.


----------



## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

kidwoo said:


> Hell if you're offering..................set that thing at 7" if you get bored one night and measure it like that.
> 
> I basically want to know if you can get a 66-67HA with the lower BB with a 7/7ish bike out of it.
> 
> Thanks a bunch.


I'll play along and guess! I think it's 66 deg HA and 15" BB with that 8" 40, no? Drop that fork to 7 and you'll steepen the HA 1.15 deg.

The average leverage ratio is 2.9, so you'll cut the travel (and rear height) by say 0.7" with the 8.5 i2i shock. That's around 0.9ish degrees slacker. If the linkage is super progressive it might be a bit less.

So the result would be... 66.25 deg HA and around 14.2" BB height, down from the 15" spec.

geek mode off


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## knollybikes.com (Jan 8, 2004)

oly said:


> noel,
> 
> Thanks for spending the time to reply to this. The chain is actually off my DHR from last yea, so its well worn. A new one is in the mail, but you know how it is when you get a new frame.... gotta build it right away.
> 
> ...


Oly: I can't (and won't) speak for Turner, but we've set up several DRS chain guide systems with 83mm BB shells and 150mm rear hubs. I just clamp the DRS straight up against the BB shell face and hold it in place with the BB cup (and in the case of our frames, also use the ISCG holes), but again, you'll have to check with Turner w.r.t. your frame.

So, your best bet will probably be to contact Turner and see what they recommend - obviously I can't give you explicite setup information on their products.

Regards,


----------



## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

.Danno. said:


> I'll play along and guess! I think it's 66 deg HA and 15" BB with that 8" 40, no? Drop that fork to 7 and you'll steepen the HA 1.15 deg.
> 
> The average leverage ratio is 2.9, so you'll cut the travel (and rear height) by say 0.7" with the 8.5 i2i shock. That's around 0.9ish degrees slacker. If the linkage is super progressive it might be a bit less.
> 
> ...


You've been playing with pictures haven't you?

Hey nevermind oly....we got it.  

If you're right (and I'm not assuming you are yet)...........you wanna buy an uzzi?


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

kidwoo said:


> You've been playing with pictures haven't you?
> 
> Hey nevermind oly....we got it.
> 
> If you're right (and I'm not assuming you are yet)...........you wanna buy an uzzi?


No man, I promise I'm stay'n away from the pics this time, but my mind still wanders...

It would make a hellofa nice little 7&7, SC fork bike with that shorter shock though. I fantasize about how stiff it would feel.

Oh, nevermind, this is sounding really bad


----------



## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

DT did say in another thread or post that he has a test rider evaluating the shorter shock combo.... so we will have to wait and see. If you want to send me the shock i could do some swaps for a weekend and see what the difference feels like.


----------



## airwreck (Dec 31, 2003)

oly said:


> DT did say in another thread or post that he has a test rider evaluating the shorter shock combo.... so we will have to wait and see. If you want to send me the shock i could do some swaps for a weekend and see what the difference feels like.


I'm looking forward to more numbers oly, keep em coming.
Still waiting for the WB, and then we can pass it on so turner can update the specs.
Very interested in the 8.5 i2i WB also.
I'd been conversing with dt about the shorter shock, think I'll end up just setting up the bike shockless, setting the HT and BB where I want it, and then getting my i2i number.


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

Some numbers..... (measured by hooking a 5mm allen stuck in the fork, using a tape measure..and subtracting the width of the 5mm allen...I know its not 100% accurate, but I made sure to be as accurate as I could...)


WB= 45.25
CS=17.25
BB= 15
HT A= 66.6 - 66.7 (digital reading)
A-C= 22.5

Tires: Minion 2.7 F, HighRoller 2.5 R, on Azonic Outlaw rims.


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

Um..... yea, I'm a dumbass. I knew it was weird that the chain was dropping all the sudden, and there had to be an explanation. Well, as I was flipping through a Decline tonight I saw an add for the E-13 DRS... HM, something was different...what could that be??? Guess what? The friggin roller was backwards... DOH! I guess when I took it all apart to remove the extra plate that was rubbing, I put it back together wrong. Haha... lesson learned. At 12am and after a few beers, stop and wait till the next day to finish....


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

oly said:


> Some numbers..... (measured by hooking a 5mm allen stuck in the fork, using a tape measure..and subtracting the width of the 5mm allen...I know its not 100% accurate, but I made sure to be as accurate as I could...)
> 
> WB= 45.25
> CS=17.25
> ...


So with a fork like a Marz 66 (555 A-C) and the 8.5" i2i shock would make it 0.75 deg steeper for the fork, and 0.9 deg slacker in the rear. So the new guess would be 66.5 ish deg HA with the Marz 66, and around 67 degress with the Van 36 (545mm A-C). Both would have a BB height around 14.25". WB might also shorten by almost 0.5" with the Van 36.


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## drumstix (Dec 31, 2003)

.Danno. said:


> but my mind still wanders...
> I fantasize about how stiff it would feel.
> 
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

Hey where's that part where red5 knows what he's talking about?

I've been waiting. I can't decide between an ellsworth and a kona. I needs some kuhnowledge.


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## nobody242424 (Nov 19, 2004)

mmmmm, i like it, looks good...


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

New weight info:

The last weight I got on the bike was 43lbs. Originally it was 42.5 with the SDG/Ibeam setup, but it was feeling a tad short so I swapped that for a raceface XY (with full post) and WTB saddle. 

I just now swapped out the Maxxis Minion 2.7f/Highroller 2.5r for Kenda nevagal/bluegroove in 2.5 kevlar. I also picked up some Welgo MG-1 mag flat pedals in place of the Azonic A-frames. 

And the new weight is...................... 40.5 lbs!! 

Not too shaby at all. Will make a great spring time get back in shape ride. When DH season is in full swing (whistler) I will probably go back to heavier tires and maybe wheels... but for now im stoked.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

That rear end is too light. It's gonna brake jack yo ass over the bars.


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> That rear end is too light. It's gonna brake jack yo ass over the bars.


Good thing my ass is so huge.... it resists the brake jack....


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## tscheezy (Dec 19, 2003)

You tards don't even know jack from squat? No wonder no one can evaluate braking. 

Nice rig, Oly. I will have to demo a medium at IB next year. The large was a bit tall.

Edit: lifting some pics from Go-Ride...


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## gonzostrike (Jan 3, 2004)

misctwo said:


> kinda looks like a stinky/cove/as-x/vpfree/canfield.


kinda looks like you're pretty ignorant, basing your "analysis" on what something "looks like"

you need to learn a bit more about bike frames and suspension systems before lumping things together based on how they "look."

or just keep saying "looks like a MiscTwo Special," I don't mind. I'm just trying to help.


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## gonzostrike (Jan 3, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> That rear end is too light. It's gonna brake jack yo ass over the bars.


not if you wear a skate lid with a NOFX sticker on it.


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

gonzostrike said:


> kinda looks like you're pretty ignorant, basing your "analysis" on what something "looks like"
> 
> you need to learn a bit more about bike frames and suspension systems before lumping things together based on how they "look."
> 
> or just keep saying "looks like a MiscTwo Special," I don't mind. I'm just trying to help.


WTF? LOL someone PMS'ing on a sunday morning? that sucks man, sorry to hear. what is a misctwo special...and i wouldn't tell you I was kidding but i have to because you're obviously to st00pit to realize that....

and kill that bug up yo butt...it's beginning to rott.


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## macrider (Jan 30, 2004)

steelduck said:


> It matters even more. Going fast into a rock garden and hitting the brakes with a "singlepivotish" bike like the non-FSR Turner makes the rear skip all over the place, compared to a FSR bike.


So true, everybody says that Turner DHR sucks, nobody every wins races on them etc.

oh wait. I'm wrong, the DHR (single pivot design) is one of the most popular DH bikes on the market - so people FLYING down hill, hanging on for dear life seem to like them, win races on them etc. - but it won't work as a freeride bike?

how many hours you spent on a Highline? could you tell us all about the brake jack, or rear-end skip you experienced on the Highline? Could you compare the Highline to the also single-pivot Foes Fly for example (based on rides on both)?

funny, I would trust Dave Turner's years of experience making very quality bikes a bit more than someone posting on the internet....

and can we kill the "Turner did away with the Horst link to save a few bucks" theory once and for all? this has to do with Tony Ellsworth taking out patents on designs where prior art exists, but the cost of fighting patent suits is more than its' worth to bring the suit...


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## nickhart (Sep 29, 2005)

hey oly, it looks great. i've just ordered one. used to have a xce and that lasted me 8 years with only two bearing changes, four different sets of forks, triple to double chain ring with bash guard. 
two questions: which finish is that (ball burnsihed or raw al)?
any idea of final build weight (sorry but all the xc weenies this side of the pond will wan tto know!)


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## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

Nick-

The finished is the Ball Burnished. Something happened to the frames during finish causing Turner to give them a nice even bead blast instead of the pure raw like earlier planned. . It looks really good, kinda frosted. 

Last weight info I had was 40.5. This is after changing to 2.5 kenda kevlar tires, and Wellgo Mag tires. I need to get some more recent pics up... Tomorrow i should have a few action shots to share also.....


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