# DESIGN : The heart of a great (or plain weird) frame



## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

In my infinite wisdom I thought it might be an idea to have a repository for all the weird, wacky, or not so weird and wacky designs that everyone may come up with.

I think overall there's too much emphasis on construction and not enough on design. You can be a fantastic brazer or have great technique when it comes to coping tubes, but none of that matters unless you're innovating, trying something different, or thinking outside the box.

So here it is, a place for all the strange, the 'I'm just thinking out loud here' designs, all the stuff you want the majors to come and rip off 

Be brave. Show us your bastard children. You can easily dodge the flying peanuts from the peanut gallery.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Because I love getting flamed, I'll go first. An old FS design from well over 10 years ago. I still have no idea whether it's completely naff or even interesting. Forward axle path sure is 'interesting' though.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Because I love getting flamed, I'll go first. An old FS design from well over 10 years ago. I still have no idea whether it's completely naff or even interesting. Forward axle path sure is 'interesting' though.


Oh WOW that's really crazy man :thumbsup: 
Even I don't have anything that can top that 

As far as bike designs from long past that the lager guys have seemed to have found intrest in, i offer up this .
Pictured below is the Namaiki / RODO Low-8 a bicycle design Philip Lord and I both worked on before the demse of both Namaiki cycles and Rodo racing .


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Step aside, punks. What you have showed is NOTHING to be embarrassed about. Feast your eyes on THIS! 

(Evil4, I think you may be due some of DW's licensing monies. That bike looks really good.)


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

.......And the Triangle of Pop-a-Wheelieness goes to.........Mr.Stickel! :thumbsup:


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

D.F.L. said:


> Evil4, I think you may be due some of DW's licensing monies. That bike looks really good.


Thanks  
I designed that bike over 10 years ago when i was still a starry eyed kid who still thought bikes could save the world .
BTW: I'd love to see that check from DW


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Bikes can save the world. Just not 5 grand lugged townies or 7 grand downhill bikes for well off middle-class white guys 

At the risk of turning this thread into a freakshow, 'Weirdest Customer Request', this is from 2003......

.....wanted a singlespeed to match........_his cows._


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

Why is that a strange request? (I'm a Wisconsinite)


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## ong (Jun 26, 2006)

Thylacine said:


> Bikes can save the world. Just not 5 grand lugged townies or 7 grand downhill bikes for well off middle-class white guys


Well, if some middle-class white guy gets rid of his stupid euro-sedan and starts getting around everyplace on his bikes, even if they are overpriced, some good has been done! (That's what I did a few years back.)


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Good onya ong, that's exactly what I do.

Let me know if you want another one?


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## ong (Jun 26, 2006)

Nope, my next one is going to be a fugly, crooked, home-brazed tourer! I just finished my first brazing project (a front porteur rack for my city bike), and I'm getting ready to ruin some perfectly good lugs.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I wish I had better to offer. This is a good topic.

Here is a simple one. I produced a bunch of these replacement top caps for Boxxer forks. The fork still used the springs, but air assist was added to allow for softer springs for greater initial sensitivity.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

Thylacine said:


> In my infinite wisdom I thought it might be an idea to have a repository for all the weird, wacky, or not so weird and wacky designs that everyone may come up with.
> 
> I think overall there's too much emphasis on construction and not enough on design. You can be a fantastic brazer or have great technique when it comes to coping tubes, but none of that matters unless you're innovating, trying something different, or thinking outside the box.
> 
> ...


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

I'm currentlly working on this little "Short wheelbase" G-boxx driven "All you can eat" full suspension tandem,.









Far from finish but the road is being fun so far, specially thanks to the collaboration and feedback of many of the members here.

The *Whole posting on the Tandem project*

I also work on a few motorcycle projects, most of them far from finish do to lack of funds but more than anything because I'm never satisfied with the results and I keep looking for better ways.









overall view of the frame with a telelever front end.









Exploring the Adjustable head angle possibilities, including a fresh air ram induction system, or in short a really tall snorkel so the engine does not get "Waterlock" when you ride on really deep water. .









Dual pivot, adjustable in every possible way, something I may implement on the tandem project to be able to use different size tires, suspension forks, rigid forks, riding conditions, etc









A somehow completed and integrated view of the headtube, headlight and airbox









Basic diagram of how you make a 500pound monster, hopefully feel like a Ballerina on bouncy shoes.









This silly bikes I like use single side swingarms and shaft drives with a very limited travel, so I work on ways to run more conventional "Motocross" linkages .









again this are all "Realistic" projects so I'm bound by how much money I can spend and also the technology available to make one-off parts.









This is a crazy idea to use the paralalever arm (A rod that keep the final drive from rotating upwards) to increase the suspension travel in a more progressive way.









another try, maybe a little easier to understand.









And it goes On and On


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> Because I love getting flamed, I'll go first. An old FS design from well over 10 years ago. I still have no idea whether it's completely naff or even interesting. Forward axle path sure is 'interesting' though.


Actually it may not to work to well as a bicycle, But it makes perfect sense for a exercise machines like the ones you see on the Infomercials., you can market it as a "Walking-pedal" machine or a Moving treadmill like my little "Segway NIKE side kick" For lazy people to "walk" to the Gym with out really walking at all.


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## MichauxYeti (Nov 10, 2005)

Patineto, while I'm a little wary of some of your design ideas, I have to give you huge marks for the hand drawing skills! Those drawings are incredible, and something I'd imagine coming from a 3D cad program rather than a pen or pencil.


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## heeler (Feb 13, 2004)

Evil4bc said:


> Oh WOW that's really crazy man :thumbsup:
> Even I don't have anything that can top that
> 
> As far as bike designs from long past that the lager guys have seemed to have found intrest in, i offer up this .
> Pictured below is the Namaiki / RODO Low-8 a bicycle design Philip Lord and I both worked on before the demse of both Namaiki cycles and Rodo racing .


So how did it ride? What is up with the upper pivot mount on the downtube? Just reinforcement?


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

On-One said:


> So how did it ride? What is up with the upper pivot mount on the downtube? Just reinforcement?


Road really well , my prototype survived over a year of me riding it really hard in auburn and N* , the design did just what it was intend to do but fell short on the availability of shocks that worked with that frame. The configuration pictured it developed a very high compression ratio.
I could ride it fine , but it was better suited for a younger much lighter rider.

The Pivot mount on the DT , YES reinforcement to prevent twisting under hard impact's like tail-whip and 360's and what not , like i said designed over 10 years ago way before BearClaw did the first T-whip or 360's on a MTB

This design still might see the light of day sooner than later thought , as I have a re-designed version with a much more linear compression ration ready to go right now !:thumbsup:


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

*The "Duke" hybrid*

Here's a hybrid!


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

Evil4bc said:


> Thanks
> I designed that bike over 10 years ago when i was still a starry eyed kid who still thought bikes could save the world .


Wait, I still thought that bikes CAN save the world!! Did I miss the memo?


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

MichauxYeti said:


> Patineto, while I'm a little wary of some of your design ideas,


Don't worry I have hear that a few Billion times.









For example this rack work on.

"palm tree technology"

The whole tight sways and moves like a Old palm tree on a windy beach, dissipating of the energy as oppose to create stress rising points on the bike fork or the rack.









Plus you don't even remember you have so much load back there, since none of the load feedback goes into the motorcycle.









Actually for some time (2 years or so)I explore the possibility of making a "Universal rack for motorcycle" something I call *the Bicycle rack that never happen*

Here is prototype number Nine in use









Here is one of the many drawings, that you can find on that gallery.









Also Long time ago I use to work building *Canard composite little airplanes * and my boss full of wisdom used to tell me stories from time to time.

One of them, is that in the early days of aviation, the designer and builder (usually the same) use to test their own planes first and that made for the Ultimate selection process, since was pretty easy to tell the good one from the bad ones in a hurry.

I can tell you and show so many stories, fail attempt and triumph, but I think my signature tell it all

*"Only him that attempt the absurd is able to achieve the Impossible"*


> I have to give you huge marks for the hand drawing skills! Those drawings are incredible, and something I'd imagine coming from a 3D cad program rather than a pen or pencil.


Well as you can see by my Typing, I'm pretty lame with words and letters, the reason is that I'm very dyslexic and for that "drawback" (or asset depends in how you see it) I'm being drawing and making things since I can remember, plus studying weird things like semiotics (None verbal communication) and a bunch of other strange skills just to overcome my llimitations with the written words..


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

coconinocycles said:


> Don't get your flame suit out, i'm just posing a different POV. now, i'm not a fancy lug guy, or a $6000 commuter fan, but i gotta think that construction is tantamount........it's what's keeping your face off the trail. and, for those building bikes every day for a living, unless you are innovating, trying something different or thinking outside the box when it comes to brazing, welding, or nailing compound copes 1st try AND designing bikes that fit your customers to a T, then you won't be doing it for long. ask the guys who build your product........... the reason they are able to offer it to you is that they have honed these aspects to the point that you can e-mail them your ideas and they can produce them efficiently enough to sell them to you at a price point where you can still turn some coin. steve.


Hey, no flame suit here. I'm a big boy, I can take it. 

I never said construction is not important, I just said there's not enough emphasis on design. Recent threads have proven that fact. This thread is a counterpoint to that.

I figured out years ago that I suck at construction, but I don't suck at design (much) and the confidence you get as a designer working with pro fabricators is an awesome experience.

I'm an Industrial Designer so I'm not so interested in newbies asking how to braze and there's only so many of those threads you can take before you start to feel like Bill Murray.

Bring on the Design!

Holey Moley, I think I spy a Halson Inversion....


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> Hey, no flame suit here. I'm a big boy, I can take it.
> 
> I never said construction is not important, I just said there's not enough emphasis on design. Recent threads have proven that fact. This thread is a counterpoint to that.
> 
> ...


Amen on that One...

So many bikes this days are so perfectly crafted, but their core concept so lame it makes you feel ashame of the waste.

A old school example..









Another sad example.
The "Oh Caramba Cranks" they look really pretty, the craftmanship is supper the polish and anodizing stellar..

But the forgot a few things.









Cold forging is essential on things like cranks and 6061 is easy to work but far from optimal on something that requires so much strengh.









That Boring bars tend to flex and they produce None-concentric bores.









The proof is in the "Putting"



















> Bring on the Design!


Oh yeah Bring it on..

Pure, simple, Honest concepts, that make sense even when they are draw on a napkin.


> Holey Moley, I think I spy a Halson Inversion....


Be careful the Word *"Halson"* is the key to Pandoras box, I have four of them my self.

Clever, elegant and so freaking pretty too.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

patineto said:


> So many bikes this days are so perfectly crafted, but their core concept so lame it makes you feel ashame(d) of the waste.


Wow, class act. Really encouraging people to put their weird and wacky ideas here, way to go.


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## Ozmosis (Sep 22, 2005)

I hesitated posting this on here, but maybe it will help get things back on topic: crazy frames.

I have no idea what this would do in real life. I've never even ridden a full suspension bike.
It's a 29er with shorter (16.5") chainstays and the rear wheel doesn't move relative to the ht/tt/dt. The cs is concentric around the rear axle and bb (to allow for tensioner-less singlespeeding, of course) and the upper link keeps the eff tt relatively the same length. This is all theoretical, and it's just a purging of an idea that's been floating in my head.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Ozmosis said:


> I hesitated posting this on here, but maybe it will help get things back on topic: crazy frames.
> 
> I have no idea what this would do in real life. I've never even ridden a full suspension bike.
> It's a 29er with shorter (16.5") chainstays and the rear wheel doesn't move relative to the ht/tt/dt. The cs is concentric around the rear axle and bb (to allow for tensioner-less singlespeeding, of course) and the upper link keeps the eff tt relatively the same length. This is all theoretical, and it's just a purging of an idea that's been floating in my head.


Sure, it's basically a Whippet bicycle from 1885, though the Whippet took it a step further and included a second sprung top tube!


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

patineto said:


> Be careful the Word *"Halson"* is the key to Pandoras box, I have four of them my self.
> 
> Clever, elegant and so freaking pretty too.


I have two PDS's, what serial #s are yours ? I got 000230 in red and 000008 in satin. I missed out on an ebay auction of one years ago that was blue and 000012 as I recall.


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## Ozmosis (Sep 22, 2005)

dr.welby said:


> Sure, it's basically a Whippet bicycle from 1885, though the Whippet took it a step further and included a second sprung top tube!


Wow! It's rediculous how similar my design is to that one. I swear, I've never seen that before.
It's interesting how designs go through cycles - no pun intended  - the softtail comes to mind.


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

DeeEight said:


> I have two PDS's, what serial #s are yours ? I got 000230 in red and 000008 in satin. I missed out on an ebay auction of one years ago that was blue and 000012 as I recall.


Oh man I have no idea, I need to check the numbers (I never worry about that sh^t)

I have a *Red One*, (upper crown, brake mounts and drop outs) a *Green one* (Kind of Emerald green , really pretty) and two *Black ones* plus a few spares, elastomers, caps, brake bridges.etc., sadlly all of them are 1 1/8" and I will love to have a one inch too (I do know, or at least I think you can just change steers, but i have no idea were to find one)

Then I also have one of the early models with so many freaking miles is not even funny, reason why i got the PDS.

And No they are not for sale, trade or nothing, but you can look at them if you are ask nicelly.

Also Please if Anybody know the guys that design this forks (I meet the three of them at Interbike years ago:doh) tell them that I wish them the best, I just hope the government did not recruit them and now they are not working in some bomb shelter with out windows, since this guys are smart, very smart..


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Ozmosis said:


> Wow! It's rediculous how similar my design is to that one. I swear, I've never seen that before.
> It's interesting how designs go through cycles - no pun intended  - the softtail comes to mind.


Yeah, it's pretty much ALL been done before.

I seem to vaguely remember a similar design done in about 5 years ago - I think they briefly sponsored the MTBR New Products and Innovations forum, but I can't turn up any reference to them any more in the archives.


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## heeler (Feb 13, 2004)

Are you thinking of Whyte?

http://www.whytebikes.com/2008/

They used to do some strange stuff, but have toned it down a bit and are now the design guys from Marin's FS's.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

There's another guy here in ottawa with a black pds, and I have spare elastomers also myself but more importantly I have an NOS and uncut 1" threaded steerer tube for them (when I got my fork, it came from a guy in florida who had planned to use it on an Ibis tandem).


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

On-One said:


> Are you thinking of Whyte?
> 
> http://www.whytebikes.com/2008/
> 
> They used to do some strange stuff, but have toned it down a bit and are now the design guys from Marin's FS's.


No, I'm pretty sure they were US based. Wish I could remember them...


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

patineto said:


> So many bikes this days are so perfectly crafted, but their core concept so lame it makes you feel ashame of the waste.





Thylacine said:


> Wow, class act. Really encouraging people to put their weird and wacky ideas here, way to go.


OH SNAP!


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Kavik said:


> OH SNAP!


For sure Ingles is just more than the Pure words, but the Cultural innuendos..

In my eyes the comment I made was to encourage everybody to persue their own dreams and passions and also to state that just because you are a massive company does not warranty you are going to get it right..

Just follow the Evolution of the TREK suspension bikes in the early 90' for a little laugh,,

Y-33...come On..:madman:


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

When I started this thread I never thought it would open up a portal to a parallel universe.

But hey, seeing as we're making sh!t up, in this parallel universe I play Dr.Cox from the tv show, 'Scrubs', so let's have some fun.....

[Doctor Cox] But hey, seeing we're here Pinocchio, let's try this on for size.

Say for example someone called you a complete fcking social retard. Would you take that as encouragement, making you look at your encounters intently with the goal of improving them, or would you be offended and think that person is an arsehole?

ut:

I'm dumbfounded that you somehow think offending someone's past creations is 'encouragement', Jennifer.

I mean, your past creations must be such the thing of genius and complete faultlessness, I'm actually struggling to think of why such a successful multi-billionaire space and time travelling super-human would be on these forums. Don't get me wrong, we're honoured by your presence, but I gotta ask.........er.........why?

[/Doctor Cox]

:madman:


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## heeler (Feb 13, 2004)

I honestly don't think motorcycle rack dude ever made the connection between warwick and the single pivot with the idle pulley...?


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> When I started this thread I never thought it would open up a portal to a parallel universe.
> 
> But hey, seeing as we're making sh!t up, in this parallel universe I play Dr.Cox from the tv show, 'Scrubs', so let's have some fun.....
> 
> ...


If Doctor Cox is refering to Me, Please tell him that His comments do not feel good at all, that is no need to be offensive, specially if they have racial undertones.

Since I was just trying (at least in my own head & Heart) to open a "Channel" for others to this form of expression call design, something I do pretty much everyday even if sometimes I'm not so good at it, because if i don't my head start spinning much to fast, thing about it as a "Rubic cube pacifier"

Hell if I was ashame of my Ingles I will never try to improve it doing things like typing my own opinions or giving my own perspectives (I try to Open boxes, Not to tape them shut) on the forums, but then again how do you get any better..!?!?

In my eyes (I don't know doctor Cox) is totally okay if somebody is different somehow and does not have much idea about design since is something that can be learn if you really try hard to a certain extend.

Ps:I teach many people at my school over the years, but not by telling what to do, but by helping "opening windows" inside their own brains propel with Gusto and wanderlust for new ideas and realms of not so "into the box" thinking.

Also I do come from a very different culture were people actually tell other people straight on their faces what they thinking of them or if they have a problem, not using subterfuges or a kaleidoscope of analogies to get around the Whole PC thing.

Hey If you ever need design advice or feedback (I don't warranty it will be perfect) or learn how to draw by hand from flat, to isometric, perspectives to somehow decent illustrations or make things out of Nothing or help anybody in need for any reason let be now..

But for my own safety I can not keep reading this tread because is not Bueno that Doctor Cox is around "Tirando piedras y escondiendo La cara"


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## heeler (Feb 13, 2004)

oh well...guess I was wrong...I suppose "oh snap" is appropriate.


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

DeeEight said:


> There's another guy here in ottawa with a black pds, and I have spare elastomers also myself


Sincerely I don't really see what the big deal is to have a bunch of this forks, or any other part made in a Industrial type process since that is the whole point in the first place, To make a ton of them..

I really like them but is not like they were made by hand or is only one of them around..

Like this little Gossamer wings I got from a frame builder friend.









Yes they did not last to long in the market place, but I'm sure they produce a few thousand units before they fold, so this whole "Exclusivity" thing is just kind of strange for me, I have them because I like them that is all.



> but more importantly I have an NOS and uncut 1" threaded steerer tube for them (when I got my fork, it came from a guy in florida.


So it is true that you can install a 1" steer into the 1 1/8" crown just like that...!?!?!

I remember one of the halson guys explain me how you just spin a "bolt" from the bottom of the crown, to extract the steer with out any heat, hammering or cryogenic work, but is being so long I can not really be sure.



> who had planned to use it on an Ibis tandem).


That will scare me a little, then again tandems and single crown suspension forks always scare me

Butn my IBIS SS will love to have a halson attach to her head, so I thanks for the tip, now I just need to find one of them somewhere...


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Actually the halson PDS forks WERE handmade so they are a pretty exclusive fork to own... that's the thing. There was one machinist making them all under contract for Halson Designs. When Halson folded, he ended up with all these forks and parts he'd made still in his possession that hadn't been paid for yet.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Not to be put off by patinetos' clear non grasp of the English language and lack of social skills, that Whippet reminded me of a drawing I did late at night when I should've been doing actual Uni work. Same concept as the Whippet, and as someone mentioned earlier, there was another similar design from the mid 90's that used a telescopic seat tube.

Originally like the Whippet I was thinking of ways to isolate the rider from the wheels, which of course is a very overly complex solution to a simple problem. Still, like a car accident, theres something 'alluring' about it.

I'm sure I have the magazine 'review' of the telescopic seat tube bike, I should see if I can dredge it up this weekend.......


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## heeler (Feb 13, 2004)

When you say "uni" are you referring to the bmx seat?

Edit: Still don't know what "uni" is but I loitered about your site a bit after seeing some of the designs you have posted up...very cool premise! I like the focus on design (engineer geek here)...and the name of the company.


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## Ozmosis (Sep 22, 2005)

I like it!


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> I'm sure I have the magazine 'review' of the telescopic seat tube bike, I should see if I can dredge it up this weekend.......


Are you talking about Genie Bicycles"

They use a sort of telescoping seat tube, though it doesn't look like it moves much.

Or is it the one that floated the seat tube and bottom bracket on two short linkages?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Naw, they have an elastomer bonded between the seat tube and post. The design I'm thinking of has a completely telescoping seat tube, but yeah there was another with a linkage driven seat tube.

'Uni' meaning University. We don't have 'Colleges' here.

You lucky people, I found it -


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> You lucky people, I found it -


Yes! That's the one I was thinking of!

I'd really love to try one out, just to see what it feels like.


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

patineto said:


> Like this little Gossamer wings I got from a frame builder friend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did they predate Jones bars? If the brake levers mounted in front of the horizontal bar to the stem, that'd blow Jones' patent out of the water (his lawyer got quite heavy with us when we were developing the mary bar).


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Brant, there are motorcycle bars that predate the Jones, and the whole 'levers mounted in front of the horizontal portion' thing is in violation of the right of the owner to mount the controls wherever they please. It wouldn't hold up in court.

You could've easily made a laughing stock out of his lawyers if you threw enough money at it, but who could be arsed, ay? I'm sure you've only sold what......3 Mary bars?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Did they predate Jones bars?


Three speed bars predated Jones bars. They are the same thing. Jones bars are nothing new.


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

pvd said:


> Three speed bars predated Jones bars.


. . . an they are great off-road. I used to ride them a bit and they were really nice in most situations.
best,
MonkeyB


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