# 4 x 18650 Battery Adaptor



## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Guys,

Taking inspiration from modamag on this thread I am in the process of making something very similar, only not specifically to go inside maglite type torches.



















Would be designed to take 4 18650 cells, either in 4S1P, 2S2P or 1S4P configuration and would have soldered leads for connecting to whatever light you have.

Thinking about doing a 2 x 18650 holder too, which would be along these lines



















I don't have machining facilities, so would be casting these in polyester resin.

Wouldn't necessarily be of professional quality, but hopefully more than adequate.

Idea is that it would be very cheap, and you could stick in whatever 18650 cells you have, and pop them out for charging.

Anyone interested in some?

My other threads on the subject are here (Candle Power Forums) and here (Single Track World)

Cheers, Rich


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## sxr-racer (Nov 17, 2005)

I may be interested.


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## sdnative (Aug 10, 2008)

Nice solid modeling! Looks pretty hard to make w/o a cnc mill however. Guess you will be going the carve from wax and investment cast in resin approach? 

I can't wait for 18650 holders to become available, and for cheap!

Good luck with the project.


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## Tinier (Apr 13, 2006)

I'll take 2 of the 4x18650 holders *queues up*


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

looks good! what kinda price would you be looking at? (and do you ship to the uk?)


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## ortelius (Dec 6, 2007)

SkUG said:


> (and do you ship to the uk?)


According to his profile hi is from UK.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

ortelius is indeed correct, shipping to the UK won't be an issue, as that's where I live  

Regarding prices, haven't worked it out fully, but probably in the region of £10-15 ish for a 4xholder.

I would agree totally - making with a mill, especially a CNC one would make life SO much easier, but doesn't mean it shouldn't be possible without :thumbsup: 

I'm hoping the end result will be presentable, might take a few attempts, but I certainly want a few for myself, so fingers crossed I'll get there!

Will take a couple of weeks, but keep checking for updates here.

Cheers, Rich


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## Froberg (Feb 25, 2008)

While you wait, you could built yourself one of these 

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=457070&highlight=18650


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Froberg - that looks nice and simple, had I found that in various searches, I probably would have just made myself some of those!

Another update on the design front - now that I've found a source for battery contacts, I can make the whole thing without requiring a clumsy bolt through the middle, in much the same way as commercial battery holders designed for AA's and the like.



















This will be much simpler, and worst case scenario will require a little bit of Velcro around the batteries to stop them popping out of the holder.

The downside, is that the configuration cannot be changed quickly between 4S1P, 2S2P and 1S4P. I would pre-wire the units in whatever configuration was required, and then they could be re-soldered to change if required.

I think the pros out-weigh the cons though, and it should be much easier to use.

Any thoughts?

Cheers, Rich


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

And now with some fillets and cut-outs to make it easier to get the batteries in and out



















Cheers, Rich


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## Harpoon (Jun 5, 2008)

Looks excellent - I'll be interested in a couple of units.

Chris.


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Looks nice, will you use spring contacts?


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## JohnnyTooBad (Mar 24, 2004)

I'll be in the UK for the next week and a half. Can you have one ready for me before I leave on the 9th?


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

I had meant to show the spring contacts in one of the earlier images, but accidentally posted a pic of the part, and not the assembly - shown below is the unit with the clips and some dimensions.










Another suggestion to velcro to hold the batteries in is a bit of inner tube, which would be easier and cheaper 

Johnny, I'm afraid the 9th is pushing it a bit in terms of getting some units complete, I'm still waiting on various materials, and it'll be a bit of trial an error before I'll have parts I'm happy to sell I expect.

However, it'll only weigh about 30g, so postage shouldn't be expensive.

Cheers, Rich


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Right, opinion time guys, do we prefer the one on the left or the right?




























Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Cheers, Rich


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## eddielee70 (Dec 28, 2006)

one on the right, we will need to use strap anyways.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Right, I think I'm getting close to a finished article 

I'm never going to please everybody by continually asking what people prefer, so apologies if you aren't as keen on the final iteration as some of the previous incarnations, but I consider it to be an improvement.










Next question, is if people could measure the lengths of their 18650 cells, and let me know the precise measurement, I'd be very grateful, as I'm aware that some cells are different to others. With some vernier callipers would be perfect, but make sure to insulate them with a bit of paper or suchlike, I don't want to be responsible for melting any measuring equipment   :nono: :eekster:

Cheers, Rich


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## Harpoon (Jun 5, 2008)

Looks good - I've got some Ultrafire protected 18650 cells, so will dig out my digital calipers over the weekend and measure.


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## Tinier (Apr 13, 2006)

I vote for the round one. Square one looks to be bulkier.


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

Correct me if i'm wrong but don't some 18650's have protection circuits? and therefore are a little larger?
Surely the open ended version would allow for both sizes, fitting the smaller unprotected by tightening the nut down abit?


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## sdnative (Aug 10, 2008)

Seriously?!? good luck making these parts bro! They would be hard to mold even for the pros. 

KISS is in order here (keep it simple stupi...) 

Use a 4x C" size battery pack holder which sell for ~$2, and make plastic tubes that slip over the 18650 to make them C's. If they are not long enough, make little aluminum end caps to increase the length. If too short, cut the holders down the middle to widen them. Bigger size, but cheap, fast to make and basically light too.

Or use PVC plastic pipe etc. to fashion up the array. Candlepower or the like had some posts like this but for AA's.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

The cells which I use have a protection circuit, and are a little longer than un-protected ones. The clips which I am using have a fair bit of give in them, so the plan is to be able to accommodate both protected and non-protected cells, but I wanted to have an idea of a realistic maximum and minimum length which it needs to work for.

A comment on another forum was where does the protection circuit fit.

The circuit protection is against over-charging, short circuiting, and over-discharging, which I would have thought would be sufficient. Assuming that you are charging the cells individually, a balancing circuit for ensuring even charge between cells isn't necessary.

I'm building one for myself, and thought that others might be interested too. 

Obviously it doesn't compare with the type of commercially prepared packs, there is no protection circuit, so if this puts people off, then they should pay the premium of a commercially sold unit.

sdnative - we'll have to see how successful my attempts at casting these units are - I may be reporting a dismal failure shortly! At which point I'll probably wish I hadn't just ordered 500 battery clips :eekster: 

Cheers, Rich


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## sdnative (Aug 10, 2008)

*A Holder Source*

I hope you don't meet failure!!

Mouser.com is a great source for battery holders BTW. They literally have hundreds of different mount options and array setups. All are very cheap ... $1.50-4 for the most part.

Check em out. And good luck using their search tool ...lol, over 1 million parts

...I usually just dl the entire catalog page and search each PDF page by page! Works better.

They are very professional also.


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## JohnnyTooBad (Mar 24, 2004)

SkUG said:


> Correct me if i'm wrong but don't some 18650's have protection circuits? and therefore are a little larger?
> Surely the open ended version would allow for both sizes, fitting the smaller unprotected by tightening the nut down abit?


As I was looking at 18650's with protection circuits, I read that you don't want to pack multiple cells together that have protection circuits. I think you'd use a single protection circuit for the whole pack.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Round one looks better... take a cut up old innertube and push the battery pack inside and tie off the ends like sausage in a tube container. Quick, simple, durable, light in weight, done.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

I think protected cells are the only ones which should be used in the holder, so I'll be designing around the longer of the 18650s.

Onto the next issue, although perhaps I'm jumping the gun a little, but who has a dismantled C2 torch they're able to measure?

I have some Ultrafire C3s, and an MTE P7, but not a C2. If anyone has both a P7 and a C2, and can tell me if the heads are interchangeable, then I'd be most grateful, as it would save me buying another unit initially.

I've modelled up a tail unit for the C3 and also how I envisage something for a C2, feedback would be appreciated. Due to the diameter of the C3, there isn't space on the tail to fit both a switch and a socket for external power, so I'm planning on just gluing the cable in on these ones.










On the C2, it's tight, but looks just about doable with both.










Any thoughts?

Cheers, Rich


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## Harpoon (Jun 5, 2008)

Rich, I've one of these C2s - what do you want measuring?

Chris.


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## Todd_F (Feb 7, 2004)

If you're looking for sets of two 18650 cells, check out the Black & Decker VPX batteries. They have two 18650 A123 Systems Li-Ions in them. Relatively cheap these days since VPX has been discontinued if you can find them. They also won't blow up as they're the newer 'safe' Li-Ion chemistries.


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

I agree with Todd, the A123 cells are great, I use a pack with the M1 size cells and they deliver a good amount of steady power. The only big issue to be aware of with these cells is that they need a special charger (or a charger with a charging algorithm for a123/LiFePO4 cells). They do not come with protection circuits and they have a lower nominal voltage than LIon (3.2V vs 3.7V IIRC). On the plus side you don't need to worry about them popping and they are only made by one company (so you get consistent quality). You can have a chance of bringing them back after an accidental deep discharge (unlike LIon).


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Rich, how do you plan to connect the tail to the light head? IIRC they are both female threaded.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

The tail will be connected to the head by a thread, the same as the body would be.

Just to clarify, my bottom picture is of 2 tail units, one pointing each direction.

Head has a female thread, body has a male, have to work out exactly what size and TPI yet though.

Electrical connection for the positive (negative is through the body) may vary somewhat between torches though, so will have to research some more.

Harpoon, the C2 you've linked to looks exactly the same as the MTE P7, so thanks for the offer of measuring, but I don't think it's necessary.

Cheers, Rich


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Progress was made over the weekend.

I finished the pattern for the battery holder (the quality looks appalling, as it's a shiny painted enamel finish, but hopefully shouldn't be too bad in the flesh)










poured the first part of the mold (AAA batteries to provide location between the 2 parts of the mold)










and then poured the 2nd part of the mold.










The moment of truth will be the demold, and seeing if the silicon has any nasty big voids/air bubbles!

I was hoping to cast my fist finished article this weekend, but the 16 hour setting time of the silicon makes it a rather slow process.

Cheers, Rich


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Well, you will all be delighted to know that the demould went successfully, especially as I was too impatient to wait for the full 16 hours curing time!

2 halves coming apart









The 2 halves









Quite a few air bubbles on the lower part of the mould









Due to how I poured the mould, I should have anticipated where the bubbles would be trapped. I've filled these with a tiny amount of silicon, so we should be good for the first cast shortly.

Cheers, Rich


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## kangaroomadman (Nov 19, 2008)

Looking good! :thumbsup: 

Count me in for a couple!


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## kgardnez (Jan 31, 2004)

What did you make the pattern out of?


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

The pattern is mainly made from 3mm card backed foam, and thin cardboard. All carefully cut and glued together. The central tube is formed from a felt tip pen. Quite time consuming, and needs to be very accurate, but nice and simple, and nothing expensive. Lots of PVA glue, and a coating of spray paint, and it came out pretty well. If I was being super critical, it isn't quite as square as I'd like, but should be fine in use. Pretty rigid and durable too, I was surprised that it survived the demould process, so I'll make another mould so that I can cast several holders at the same time.

Cheers, Rich


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## sdnative (Aug 10, 2008)

Quite the DIYer you are. Nice work! I've used a vibratory table when doing casting and lost form investment casting, works well, but obviously not readily available. 

Did you try tapping the side with something light at all ...light rapid vibration often helps the bubbles travel upward and outward. Or find something that shakes and put it against it.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

I did tap the mould a fair bit, but I think due to the shape, I hadn't fully considered how bubbles would actually escape - they were effectively trapped against a ceiling. Never fear - mould number 2 is currently curing, so we'll see how that turns out!

Cheers, Rich


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

Be extremely careful not to introduce air when you mix the silicone. I know...easy to say, hard to do.


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## TheBigYin (Sep 29, 2008)

Hold one of those detail sanders (with the sanding pad removed obviously) against the mould. works just like those vibrating pokers that they use to settle concrete.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

The big moment for the first pours in polyurethane resin arrived last night, so an update with lots of photos!

The resin sets remarkably quickly, to the point where you need to work pretty fast.

Ready for demoulding - you can see some resin has managed to find its way out of the bottom of the mould, as I hadn't sealed it up sufficiently.









The start of the demould process - was rather tricky as I hadn't used any release compound









The cast part and intact (big relief) mould









Bottom end









Top end showing a few voids - this was due to a combination of not enough runners, and some of the resin seeping out of the bottom of the mould









Top end in a bit more detail









With battery clips and batteries installed









Batteries are a pretty tight fit (mine are protected, but the clips are pretty much as compressed as they'll go, so I'll make a new pattern whcih will be slightly longer, and should be better.









Total weight with batteries









Weight without batteries









Cheers, Rich


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Armed with the knowledge of the first pour, I made a few minor mods to the mould. I added more runners at the top, to make resin filling and air removal easier, and cut up and old inner tube to hold the 2 parts of the mould together more effectively

Mould all bound and ready to go, with 5 runners









The 2nd cast item, with only 2 minor air bubbles, pretty happy









The bottom end looks pretty much perfect 









Still a little bit of paint coming off the mould, but a good coating of vaseline made demoulding and overall finish a lot better









Moving forwards, I have a 2nd mould currently setting, hopefully fewer air bubbles in this one - I'll find out tonight!









Cheers, Rich


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## ocean breathes salty (Oct 1, 2006)

Starting to look really good. It's great to see the project moving along so quickly!

Count me in for a couple :thumbsup:


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Thought I should give an idea of estimated prices at this point:

Battery pack without cable ~ £12
Battery pack with cable ~ £15? (with 2.1mm male plug)
Battery pouch ~ £7
P7 tail cap (to replace the battery tube) ~ £20 (very rough guess currently)

Complete package ~ £35 ish

All would have about £1 postage on top to the UK, a bit more to the rest of the world

Cheers, Rich


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## msxtr (Dec 10, 2006)

*turboferret* You are a genius!!! 

Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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## Jim Z in VT (Sep 9, 2007)

Amazing how fast this progressed from theory to reality.....nice job!

JZ


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Right, after someone on BikeMagic got me worried about crazy currents, I did some tests.

1 cell = 2.25A









2 cells = 2.66A









3 cells = 2.89A









4 cells = 2.97A









This was with 3 fully charged 2400mA Ultrafire 18650's reading about 4.15V, and one slightly discharged one (for the 4 cell test) reading 3.9V.

As I had removed the emitter from my P7 for the test I didn't want to run it for ages due to lack of heat sink, so LED was fired up for about 2 seconds in each test.

I hope this alleviates any concerns about pulling massive loads and blowing up lights left right and centre!

Cheers, Rich


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## syadasti (Apr 20, 2004)

Production light with 4x18650 adapter:

https://lightonlights.com/product/


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## HEY HEY ITS HENDO (Feb 23, 2008)

syadasti said:


> Production light with 4x18650 adapter:
> 
> https://lightonlights.com/product/


ewwwwww fugly !!


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## syadasti (Apr 20, 2004)

HEY HEY ITS HENDO said:


> ewwwwww fugly !!


Its a battery pack, 4x18650 not fully inserted. Form factor isn't going to differ much if you want that.

It looks like this closed:


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## HEY HEY ITS HENDO (Feb 23, 2008)

ahh, .... ooops no offence intended, i was looking at the 2 x 2 light unit
................ wow, ..far too big in my opinion !!


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## syadasti (Apr 20, 2004)

HEY HEY ITS HENDO said:


> ahh, .... ooops no offence intended, i was looking at the 2 x 2 light unit
> ................ wow, ..far too big in my opinion !!


I don't own one but you are mistaken. It only weights 105 grams (lighter than most cycle lamp heads) and its not that big (3 in^2). Lots of quad units around that size or larger. The Dinotte 800L is bigger (3.7 in^2) and significantly heavier at 215 grams.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

An interesting looking system, with a remarkably similar battery system to what I'm shortly to be producing.

However, price wise, there is a small discrepancy...$475 for the Light On system vs ~£40 for a Dealextreme MTE P7, 4x18650 batteries + charger and ~£35 for my battery pack, pouch, cable and tail-cap, ~£4 for a 2 Fish lock-block or similar.

Total price ~£80 or ~$120 

Cheers, Rich


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

turboferret said:


> An interesting looking system, with a remarkably similar battery system to what I'm shortly to be producing.
> 
> However, price wise, there is a small discrepancy...$475 for the Light On system vs ~£40 for a Dealextreme MTE P7, 4x18650 batteries + charger and ~£35 for my battery pack, pouch, cable and tail-cap, ~£4 for a 2 Fish lock-block or similar.
> 
> ...


Yeah, yeah...okay already!..:cryin: ..I'm interested in YOUR kit. Let us know when it's ready.


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## syadasti (Apr 20, 2004)

turboferret said:


> However, price wise, there is a small discrepancy...$475 for the Light On system vs ~£40 for a Dealextreme MTE P7, 4x18650 batteries + charger and ~£35 for my battery pack, pouch, cable and tail-cap, ~£4 for a 2 Fish lock-block or similar.
> Cheers, Rich


Any thermal protection mode? Short circuit protection? Low battery indication? A MTE P7 torch only put out about 500 lumens and is more floody than quad Q5 or R2 given the current optics available. Also are you claiming you are selling your light for no profit? So really, it doesn't sound like the same thing?


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

syadasti, I was simply giving a quick cost comparison between the 2 systems - for 1/4 of the price, clearly there will be a slight discrepancy between features.

I am offering a simple remote battery pack to be used in conjunction with a P7 torch, and a small adaptor to allow the pack to plug in. I'm not adding any features just the opportunity to increase run-time.

At no point did I say I was selling these for no profit, there is a small margin in there, but most folk seem to be happy with the price I'm offering my parts at.

I can assume that you aren't interested.

Cheers, Rich


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## kgardnez (Jan 31, 2004)

syadasti said:


> Any thermal protection mode? Short circuit protection? Low battery indication? A MTE P7 torch only put out about 500 lumens and is more floody than quad Q5 or R2 given the current optics available. Also are you claiming you are selling your light for no profit? So really, it doesn't sound like the same thing?


Wow, why so touchy? You post as if someone was personally attacking you or your product. This is a light forum where many feel their offerings are superior for personal, design or costs reasons. Let them rejoice in their accomplishments.


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## syadasti (Apr 20, 2004)

kgardnez said:


> Wow, why so touchy? You post as if someone was personally attacking you or your product.


I was just noting there are significant differences and I did not insult him. DX torches aren't the most reliable thing around if you've played around with a few.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

turborret, it's looking good...will you sell just the holders on their own?

If so I will have a couple, I'm n the UK.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

yetibetty, more than happy to sell some holders on their own.

I've pencilled your name down, hopefully won't be too long before I have some saleable items.

Cheers, Rich


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Hi I'm the 1 that wrongly got you worries, although the amp's increase still within spec on that torch : it's Dyl by the way


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## sdnative (Aug 10, 2008)

Rich, nice work on this little project of yours! 

Also, I'm super interested in how the voltage will drop down as the batteries drain. Was wanting to use a similar array for running an MCE through a 4 channel linerar regulator ...but was worried the battery voltage woud drop below 3.4 volts. 

Done a voltage vs. time @ constant current run yet? Thanks ~Chris


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## sdnative (Aug 10, 2008)

Ya, not the slickest looking, but seen worse. They screwed up a design issue though ....they should have oriented the cooling fins vertically. Makes a HUGE difference in the convection cooling coeff ...meaning, it runs much cooler than with them horizontally. MUCH much cooler.


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## notaknob (Apr 6, 2004)

*deja vu all over again...*



syadasti said:


> Production light with 4x18650 adapter:
> 
> https://lightonlights.com/product/


I've seen something like that somewhere. It looks vaguely familiar.


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## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

sdnative said:


> Ya, not the slickest looking, but seen worse. They screwed up a design issue though ....they should have oriented the cooling fins vertically. Makes a HUGE difference in the convection cooling coeff ...meaning, it runs much cooler than with them horizontally. MUCH much cooler.


I don't think I'd want to have any part of my anatomy land on the fins if they were vertical. In still air, vertical fins have better cooling, but in real world outdoor bike performance, there is probably very little difference.

The LightOn square arrangement is efficient, the form factor is smaller than a round one (like a DiNotte 800L) and having the fins directly on the back is better than most of the round tubes with radial fins (where only the first fin really has any effect). Maybe not the best on looks, but a function follows form design. It be nice if it could mount in front of the bar instead of on top.

And to get back on topic, yes, I'd like a battery holder. I'd prefer a 2-cell holder, but nothing wrong with a 4-cell version.


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## sdnative (Aug 10, 2008)

itsdoable said:


> I don't think I'd want to have any part of my anatomy land on the fins if they were vertical. In still air, vertical fins have better cooling, but in real world outdoor bike performance, there is probably very little difference.
> 
> The LightOn square arrangement is efficient, the form factor is smaller than a round one (like a DiNotte 800L) and having the fins directly on the back is better than most of the round tubes with radial fins (where only the first fin really has any effect). Maybe not the best on looks, but a function follows form design. It be nice if it could mount in front of the bar instead of on top.
> 
> And to get back on topic, yes, I'd like a battery holder. I'd prefer a 2-cell holder, but nothing wrong with a 4-cell version.


It's easy ...just don't crash spread eagle over the bars!! lol...

The fins are radius'd, so ....

Since the air is not forced over the fins in that config, the only thing left to drive air is free convection ...doesn't work as well with horizontal fins... period.

The 4 X config like they did however, would be my choice as an engineer ...and is no doubt a league above most the lights I've seen on this forum as far as raw performace goes ...so, was a trade off on their part, form v function.

Unfortunately, most buyers prefer sleek looks to performance :madman:


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

I HATE the way it posts linked to the person your talking to, BikeMagic is SOOO much less confusing, so your not alone!!


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Haven't done any voltage/time runs I'm afraid, however, I'm sure this will vary on the exact batteries you're using.

My cheap Dealextreme 2400mAh 18650's won't have the same discharge curve as more expensive units, so I'm not sure how useful posting a graph would be to be honest.

Cheers, Rich

P.S. Am I the only one confused by the fact that posts aren't necessarily in chronological order?


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Indeed, you have to trawl back through all of the pages to check for replies which aren't tagged on the bottom 

Cheers, Rich


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## Harpoon (Jun 5, 2008)

Dead easy to change how the threads on displayed on here:

Click "My Account" (just above the 1st red Post Reply)
Click "Edit Options" on the left hand menu bar
Scroll down the screen until you "Thread Display Options"
Change "Thread Display Mode" - Linear, Oldest First is what most people probably expect
Scroll down and click Save

Hey presto, everything makes much more sense


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Hey hey, splendid - thanks Harpoon 

Looks like that should help a few other folk too 

Cheers, Rich


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## sdnative (Aug 10, 2008)

Ya, this forum has weird posting going on. If you reply to a particular msg, it adds it higher in the sequence ...but, sometimes it just adds to the end. Inconsistent.

Interested in the voltage because I'm worried that the 18650's won't be able to put out a high enough voltage potential to drive an LED after the battery has drained down a bit. I saw a voltage curve on candlepower forums that showed the batteries dip down to 3 volts after a short while ...which is not enough to run an led that requires 3.4 volts. Don't want to buy all this stuff to figure out it was all for not. 

Basically, I want to use 2 of DX's 1400ma drivers, and split each board in half (so have 4 circuits that each put out 700ma) Then use your 18650 array to power each leg on the Cree MCE. Worried it will be a waste of time and money.


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## syadasti (Apr 20, 2004)

Turveyd said:


> I HATE the way it posts linked to the person your talking to, BikeMagic is SOOO much less confusing, so your not alone!!


Change the display mode:


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## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

sdnative said:


> Interested in the voltage because I'm worried that the 18650's won't be able to put out a high enough voltage potential to drive an LED after the battery has drained down a bit. I saw a voltage curve on candlepower forums that showed the batteries dip down to 3 volts after a short while ...which is not enough to run an led that requires 3.4 volts. Don't want to buy all this stuff to figure out it was all for not.
> 
> Basically, I want to use 2 of DX's 1400ma drivers, and split each board in half (so have 4 circuits that each put out 700ma) Then use your 18650 array to power each leg on the Cree MCE. Worried it will be a waste of time and money.


Li-Ion cells typically start out at 4.2V and end up at <3V when empty.

DX torches come in 2 varieties, direct drive (with a resistor for low power), or current 
controlled with a boost-buck circuit.

A boost-buck controller maintains constant current by reducing the voltage when it's too high, and boosting the voltage when it falls too low. I think DX even sells a version of that controller separately. Most DIY'ers use a simple buck or a simple boost controller, because they are more efficient. If you are making a bike light, you usually need several cells to get a decent run time, so you can easily arrange the battery pack to match the circuit.

Boost-buck circuits are most efficient when your drive voltage is close to your battery voltage, and are ideal for single cell Li-Ion systems driving a single white LED.

Direct drive circuits are more efficient at full power (beacuse you are not wasting power on the controller), but the light dims with the discharge voltage, and the LED is often over-driven when the cell is new, shortening it's life.


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## sdnative (Aug 10, 2008)

*3 volts! Noooo*



itsdoable said:


> Li-Ion cells typically start out at 4.2V and end up at <3V when empty.
> 
> DX torches come in 2 varieties......


Lower than 3 volts, that's what I was worried about. How long into the overall discharge cycle do you think before it reaches ~3.4ish volts? 50%, 75% ...that's why I was hoping he had done a Voltage/Time graph ...or something like that.

Thanks for taking the time to explain, but well versed on the electronics myself. The DX setup would work well since the voltage is so close to the drive voltage ...and the drop across the driver is very small (and the diode can be removed to help a little too). Efficiency would be very high even though it's a linear style current control ...and it would be ~$3 for an MCE driver!!!!

Very tempting ...but the 3 volt thing kinda is a bummer ...I may end up with dim lights after only an hour, maybe even less ...that's my worry.

Thanks guys


----------



## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Syadasti, THANKS BIG TIME!!!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Harpoon said:


> Dead easy to change how the threads on displayed on here:
> 
> Click "My Account" (just above the 1st red Post Reply)
> Click "Edit Options" on the left hand menu bar
> ...


*To syadasti and Harpoon*: I'll add my voice to the thank list as well. I never knew that my account was set up in hybrid mode. Hybrid mode display was a PITA!


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## ocean breathes salty (Oct 1, 2006)

Cat-man-do said:


> *To syadasti and Harpoon*: I'll add my voice to the thank list as well. I never knew that my account was set up in hybrid mode. Hybrid mode display was a PITA!


Good and bad. In massive threads like Dinotte, it lets you follow a single conversation without all the other stuff in the middle. Just so long as you don't have tools like me sticking random posts to the OP that don't seem to be related to anything


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## HEY HEY ITS HENDO (Feb 23, 2008)

......... and so it seems that everybody's preferred choice of linear mode, myself included,
is not the default setting !!
...... high time it was changed i think :thumbsup: 

you can put me down for 1 holder, for now


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## LeonOfBristol (Oct 4, 2006)

Hi there,

Just registering my interest 

Am at the beginning of a homebrew light project, and was planning on a remote battery and switching unit. I was going to use two 18650 batteries, so if you do make a 2 cell holder, I'd be interested.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Hendo, you already said you wanted 2 on CPF, you can ask for more, but not less 

Quotes are coming in for the machined part, so I think we're on course for mid January 

I also have in my hand now a new pattern which has been rapid prototyped, and as soon as I have my vacuum degassing chamber (next week fingers crossed), I'll be making some more moulds, hopefully bubble free!

I'll set up a proper page on my website (currently just lots of photos) here for ordering and paypal payment etc, as I can see it getting very confusing with orders coming in from 5 different forums!

Cheers, Rich


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

turboferret said:


> .....I'll set up a proper page on my website (currently just lots of photos) here for ordering and paypal payment etc, as I can see it getting very confusing with orders coming in from 5 different forums!
> 
> Cheers, Rich


I like what you did to the MTE torch in the last picture. Looks like you plan on replacing the push button with a toggle type switch. Is that going to work with the multi-mode torches? I'm very much interested in the kit you are going to offer when you get this all done. My only worry is that if I get the kit I'll have to find some way of removing the pill from the old battery tube. There must be some way of doing it that won't wreck the threads.


----------



## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Yup, simple on-off toggle switch on the end - I thought a photo of what it'll likely look like would be helpful.

However, the 2-mode and the 5 mode seem to have different construction, so a single part will not be transferable between the 2 torches 

I have a 5 mode on order, to see about how different it is inside, but my thoughts at this stage are that this will only work with the 2-mode, and by fitting my adaptor, you'll be just getting a 1-mode (plus off )

By pill do you mean the brass slug and the board with the emitter? If so, this unscrewed very easily (much more easily than the battery tube itself) just using a pair of fine nosed pliers.

I'll post up my compatibility findings when my new torches turn up.

Cheers, Rich


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

I got the sewing machine out last night to whip together the battery pouch, and discovered quite how much of a barsteward neoprene is to work with! Slippery on one side, and sticky on the other, so learning from this, the production pouches will have the coloured surface on the inside, and the plain black on the outside.










and a few shots of it strapped to various bikes in different places









Fits fine on a long-ish stem

















slightly more cosy on a short-ish stem








As you can see, I spend a lot of time cleaning my bikes after riding 

The strap for bike attachment is removable, so it won't be a pain if you just want to stick the battery pack in a back pocket or rucksack.

After buying various cables and plugs, I have come to the conclusion that this is an area best left to the professionals, as my best efforts haven't been quite up to scratch.

Therefore, I'm planning on buying a load of these so that's what you'll get if you request a cable.










I'll hardly be putting a markup on these, just to cover postage and potential exchange rate fluctuations, and a bit of soldering time.

For those wanting to run 2 lights, Batteryspace also offer this










however, I think that's a bit of an expensive and bulky solution to the issue - what I would prefer would be to run a pair of cables from the battery pack, which would also be cheaper. What are the collective Mtbr thoughts?

I am delighted to report that my rapid-prototype has arrived, and I'll be making some new moulds using this as soon as my vacuum degassing chamber (to eliminate bubbles) arrives. This is a darn sight nicer than my cardboard version, and is geometrically perfect  I've got high hopes for the quality from these.




























Progress continues!

Cheers, Rich


----------



## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

Rich, with regard to the cables...maybe you could provide a length of straight cable without the stretchy bit to peoples length requirements. I had a battery off smudge and he cut the cable to the length I wanted. it makes the whole lot tidier IMHO.

Just a thought 

Steve


----------



## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Wow! That turned out really nice, which means the cast parts should as well. I can only envy your skills with the needle and thread :thumbsup: 

I really like your site with the pics showing the evolution of this project.


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## crapbot (Mar 4, 2008)

Impressive ! Looking forward to seeing the end product and hopefully buying a set


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## Datalogger (Jul 5, 2008)

Turboferret, how is everything coming? It looks great!


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Progress is temporarily paused as I rip up the slopes in Switzerland snowboarding 

However, on my return I should have a prototype torch insert, and several more P7 torches to compare and contrast to try and deduce which of them my mod will be compatible with.

Cheers, Rich


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## Datalogger (Jul 5, 2008)

Awesome, thanks Rich. Enjoy the snow!


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Updates - I should receive my prototype torch adaptor this week, it's been made and in the post, so I'll be testing this on my new 58 mile round trip commute :eekster: 

I've cut up a load of neoprene for battery pouches, still trying a few different sewing machine attachments and thread combinations to make sure the quality of construction is up to scratch, as neoprene is a bit of a bugger to work with  

My vacuum degassing chamber arrived the other day, so I'll be making some new moulds with my rapid prototype, which I have high hopes for :thumbsup: 

I have received 2 new P7 torches from DealExtreme, and hope to confirm shortly the compatibility with the 5 mode. The pills in my new torches seem a much tighter fit than my previous one, and take some effort to remove, which is slightly concerning, hopefully the design hasn't changed between batches  

Progress has been somewhat affected by moving house, christmas, snowboarding holiday, considerably less working space than before, and the recent slight inconvenience of my motorbike gearbox dying a death, so I'm afraid this project has slipped slightly from the top of the priority list  

Cheers, Rich


----------



## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

The prototype P7 torch fitting arrived yesterday, so here it is next to a standard torch










This one hasn't been anodised, the production ones will be black










Unscrewed from the head










With a 2fish lock-block onto the closest thing to a handlebar I had without getting cold going outside!










One issue I see is the balance point of the modified torch - previously using a lock-block you could velcro it onto the centre of the torch, now the centre is in fact where the little cooling fins are. I'll give this a good test and see if heat is a problem, but I'm sure other mounts would alleviate this issue.

Cheers, Rich


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

Rich,
That looks really neat, are you happy with the prototype??


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Steve,

Apologies, an email to you should have been the first thing I did this morning  

Prototype is great, really pleased with how it's turned out, and those threads work perfectly :thumbsup: 

I might shorten the overall length by about 5mm, but overall, it's ace, exactly what I had anticipated  

Perhaps for aesthetic purposes removing a few mm of knurling at the switch end would neaten it up a fraction too.

Need to solder up the internals, and get it on a bike now  

Cheers, Rich


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

No probs Rich,
I know what it's like when you get your hands on a bit you've been waiting for  

Glad you're happy with it...It didn't come out too bad for a bit of manual turning. With regard to the Knurling, it would look good have a small plain length on the switch end. It would be easier to get a better knurl too as I could knurl the diameter, then turn the 2 ends and go over the top of the knurl to remove any sharp edges.

Can't wait to see it working...:thumbsup: 

Steve


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Nice work there Steve , I did wonder when I first saw it if it was from you.

Can I make a sugestion ref mounting Rich 

you have the lock block round the cooling fins If steve had machined a 10 mm groove round the adapter A large zip tie works very well with the lockblocks might be an easy answer to mounting .

Or you could just use the tie round the cooling fins if it is a ballance thing
at least it uncovers the fins then


----------



## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Chris, good call on the zip tie front - I could replace one of the bits of velcro with a zip tie or 2, which would uncover the majority of the fins.

I have seen other mounts which are probably better than the lock blocks, but these have the advantage of being very versatile. Balance is an issue with them though as you can't transmit a huge amount of torque through them to the bars without them moving.

Cheers, Rich


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

Why, thank you Chris...yep, it's one of mine!! I'm like dogsh*t now..getting everywhere lol

Steve


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## sq225917 (Dec 28, 2008)

This is looking awesome.

i'm i alone in running 2 P7's?


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

I think a few people run a pair of P7's you can get a small splitter cable to divide the output, assuming they are both on the bars, or the other option would be to have 2 power cables coming from the pack.

Cheers, Rich


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

SQ a low powered MC-E + a good P7 on the bars here, with a 1200ma Q5 spot + MC-E on my helmet 

Its getting close to daylight speeds and this would get my P7 brighter so even nearer and the MC-E on my head.


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

good news 
18650's are now reduced from DX
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.19625~r.11188108
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.19624~r.11188108
Which charger?


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Shame I've already got 12 18650's 

I'm using 2 of these chargers, they've been good for me.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.6105


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## HEY HEY ITS HENDO (Feb 23, 2008)

this DX charger has 2 independant slots an i love it 
......... http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1251


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Guys,

It is with great regret that I will not be continuing to pursue the P7 adaptor concept 

There has been overwhelming enthusiasm from MTB'ers all over the world, much more than I had envisaged when I started messing around with battery holders. I am very sorry to disappoint a lot of keen prospective buyers.

Let me explain - I had rather naively assumed that one P7 was the same as another, and I could produce a universal fitting to replace the battery tube. However, while they look the same from the outside, the internals seem to change quite frequently, which would at worst render the adaptor useless, or at best mean it would only fit a few torches. Trying to keep track of design changes and produce a guide of what torch a potential buyer has, and thus which adaptor is required, is beyond what I am willing to do. Given the potential for large numbers of returns on adaptors which won't fit, and the very small profit margin on each one, the chances of making a considerable loss are pretty high. I would also have to keep a fairly high inventory level of parts, and commit to fair sized production runs, so despite the provisional orders, the risk is high.

I will still be making 4 x 18650 battery holders, and pouches, suitable for DIY'ers or people wanting an external pack for existing lights, but not a complete system. I cast my first finished holder using my rapid prototyped mould, and it's excellent, fantastic surface finish and geometrically perfect.










If people want one of these, I'll be making quite a few, £12 + postage to anywhere in the world, let me know, will have them available very shortly in 4S1P, 2S2P or 1S4P.

Thank you to everyone for their constructive comments and useful input over the past month or so, it has been great to tap into a wealth of knowledge, ideas and experience. It has been great fun, and kept me amused for a good few weekends and evenings, but a number of variables seem to be conspiring against me. Sorry for letting you down.

Cheers, Rich


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Shame to hear that but I understand,

you don't want to have to make them in 20 different shapes and sizes and then something new comes along and the P7 is obsolete.

Good luck with the battery holders.


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## ocean breathes salty (Oct 1, 2006)

turboferret said:


> It is with great regret that I will not be continuing to pursue the P7 adaptor concept


Like Betty said.... It's a shame but we can all understand your reasons.

The new mould looks really good though and they are still going to be particularly useful for a good number of people.

Keep tinkering:thumbsup:


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

Rich,
That's a real shame but understandable. The way things move on these days, it would be a problem to try and cover all bases.
I may still be intersted in how it all goes together as I could make my own to suit 

Steve


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## crapbot (Mar 4, 2008)

Sorry to hear that. 

There is a potential alternative, perhaps. You could create a dummy 18650 battery with a socket in the side and the socket wired to the positive and negative ends of the dummy. 

To use it, someone drills a hole in their torch, inserts the battery, lines up the two holes and inserts the power cable. You could sell something to help waterproof it too?

This would work with any 18650 powered torch. It's a bit of a waste of space, certainly, but seems quite practical, to me anyway. Drilling a hole of a specified width into a torch is pretty straightforward!

You could even make the dummy battery as solid as possible to provide a large heatsink. Or just hollow to be lighter/cheaper.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

My idea too, I prefer light heat wise the contact area to this 18650 then from that to the outter body is minimal so there is no advantage heat wise, so if you could save 20grams off it yes pls, I use it on my helmet and saves me building my kneck muscles up too strong.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Mates came up with 2 tiny crocodile clips onto each of the springs, lighter than a battery.

Or just wrap the wires around then slap on some solder, knocks 50grams off the torches weight so YES pls


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

There are lots of nice simple DIY possibilities, the dummy cell being one, and connecting directly to the battery terminals another.

One way around getting the cable in and out of the battery tube (if you still want to use it with standard cells occasionally) would be to dremmel (other power-tools are available!) a little slot down through the tail cap threads and into the battery tube. That way the wire could be removed easily without needing to disconnect anything.

That's probably what I'll do with some of the multitude of P7's I now have knocking around!

Cheers, Rich


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## Jim Z in VT (Sep 9, 2007)

The cell holder looks beautiful. Let us know when they'll be ready for purchase!

JZ


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## Jim Z in VT (Sep 9, 2007)

Sorry....double post. No way to delete?

JZ


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

turboferret said:


> Guys,
> 
> It is with great regret that I will not be continuing to pursue the P7 adaptor concept
> 
> ...


What(?)  .....*sniff*....*sniff*....:sad: .....:cryin: ....  Oh well, it was the thought that counts. I guess you are right in that there might have been lots of problems. Can't say I blame you. Still, I think I would of been willing to buy one with no guarantee just to see if it would have worked.. . I suppose you could have offered a set-up with the torch head included. That would of cost more but at least you could pre-test them to make sure they would work. Of course it you did than the cost of the set-up ( with batteries, charger, mounting and such ) would come real close to the cost of one of those Korean made Ever Lights ( Airbike ). I still hope to get a couple of those battery holders you're making when they are ready. :thumbsup:


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## El34 (Jan 11, 2009)

Turbo, 
A couple suggestions based on many years and hours riding with lights.
Anything that can go wrong in the woods, will go wrong! 

*Mounting:* You are gonna need a *way more* secure mount than just velco or a zip tie and you will need a better way to aim the beam and lock down the light. 
Check out how I lathed off the fins on the main body and added a heat sink/mount. You may come up with an idea of how you want to make a mount for your lights. People can buy the Marwi mounts for $8 on line and they are a great mount. Might consider making something that integrates with the Marwi mount.

The power jack and small toggle switch in the back, been there done that.

*Power jack problem*: Cable pulls out of the jack very easily unless there is some sort of way to lock it in place. It always pulls out at the worst possible time.

*Switch problem*: I had a toggle just like that on one of my lights. It was very easy to hit with my knee when standing and pedaling, just standing over the top tube, or pushing the bike up a steep climb. The bats will just break off if hit too many times. I ended up cutting the bat on the toggle in half to make it as small as possible and this seemed to help. A recessed push button switch is the best way to go I have seen.

see my bike lights page here for more info on the mount/heat sink.
http://www.el34world.com/Misc/bike/BikesLights1.htm

Good luck on your project


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

El34,

Lots of good comments, most of them valid!

The power jack was a PITA, and I was going to change to a small hanging lockable in-line 5.5x2.1mm plug/socket combination. Regardless of the plug coming out, any minor loss of continuity would change the output setting on a 5-mode torch, and be very infuriating.

The toggle worked fine, although maybe that was because of the position of the light hanging below the bars on my road bike.

I do like the simplicity of the lock-blocks though, and although they aren't the most sophisticated of mounts, they are very versatile, and do me fine day in, day out, both on and off-road.

Very nice site you have, some lovely modifications to your P7 

However, if you look a few posts up, you'll see that I've pulled the plug on the P7 adaptor, and will just be sticking to 18650 holders and battery pouches.

If I'm ever doing some mods in the future, I'll certainly bear in mind your experiences.

Cheers, Rich


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## jmk999 (Oct 18, 2006)

I've been following this thread on-and-off for a while now. While most of the technical info is significantly above my head, I continue to return because I'd love to purchase something, anything that would allow me to run my P7 torch for at least 2.5 uninterrupted hours.

So, here are my questions: When will the adaptor be available?; How much will it cost?; and how would one go about making the purchase?


If these question has already been answered, please accept my sincere apologies. Thanks.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

jmk999,

look here, I'm afraid the adaptor is no more 

Cheers, Rich


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## El34 (Jan 11, 2009)

Yeah, I understand why you would not want to do this commecially.

Been there and done that also,,,, and ruined several other hobbies doing it. :madman: 
It gets real old, real quick, doing laborious task for next to nothing.

If I had to charge labor for what I did on my light, it would be a $400 light.  

The best we can hope for is that the chinese will take these ideas and come out with some sort of sawed off P7 for bikes. They are about the only ones that can make things really cheap anymore. All they really have to do is come out with a short center section for the same flashlight that we used for our experiment and some sort of bar mount that works with the short light. It definately needs additional heat sinking once you shorten the middle section.

If a US manufacturer took these ideas and made a light, it would be $150 without batteries, no doubt.

Back to the plug in power receptacle: Long ago I dumped the idea of having a DC power inlet on the lights. The best method has been a power cord that exits the light and plugs right into your battery pack. Just like the commercial light guys do it. Make the light cord long enough to reach a water bottle cage and the battery pack has a short, maybe 6" cord. Simplifies the whole deal a bunch and makes it very reliable.

see ya


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Careful mate plugged 2 x 18650's together supposedly correctly to keep the voltage the same and his P7 MTE 5 mode popped, Turbo tested it on 1 light and it worked fine so it could be a 1 off or it could be a luck of the draw thing.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Right, subsequent to the demise of the replacement battery tube I've decided to make an alternative.

There was quite a bit of interest in the idea of a nice simple 'dummy cell' concept for those wanting an external battery pack for the P7, and were happy to drill a hole in the side of their torch.

This will be a bit of a DIY solution, as you'll have to source your own cable, and either crimp or solder the ends, and of course drill your torch, but it should be a fairly simple solution which should be reliable and versatile.










That's the holder, and this is roughly how it'll go in a P7 (only with the wires meeting up of course!)










Price will probably be under a tenner, but not really decided yet.

I've updated my website and the ordering page will be up and running as soon as I've made a few pouches and cast a few holders - I'd rather people had to wait a bit to order, than wait to receive after paying!

My friendly rapid-prototyper is again providing amazing help, and I'd expect that I'd have the first dummy cells within a fortnight.

Cheers, Rich


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## crapbot (Mar 4, 2008)

Great stuff ! Excellent work, thanks a lot


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

It just occurred to me that I'm virtually selling something which is still an idea on a computer screen, and I haven't actually made yet, let alone test, so fingers crossed it won't turn out like my earlier adaptor  

Cheers, Rich


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## Harpoon (Jun 5, 2008)

Fab idea Rich - exactly what I've searched for and found nothing.

I'd got as far as buying some Plexiglass tubing for a DIY effort but I will wait for your idea to come to life. Top stuff!

Chris.


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## Jim Z in VT (Sep 9, 2007)

I'm probably missing something obvious here, but: If there's a cable coming out of the side of the dummy battery, how do you get the dummy battery into the torch? The 18650 torch I have has virtually no clearance between the battery and and the tube.

Oh wait, maybe I see it.....that's not a cut-away view of the dummy battery, there actually _is_ a cut-away in it? And there's the little notch.....so you thread your cable out through the hole in your torch, lay the cable in the notch, and slide it in while pulling the rest of the cable through?

Yup, that'll work. Cool.

JZ


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Jim, yup, you got it, the notch is there for threading the dummy cell into the torch while the cable is poking out of a hole.

Hopefully it'll work OK, I'll get one made up and test it asap.

Cheers, Rich


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## ZipMTB (Jan 29, 2004)

*Ordering is live*

Thought I would bump this. I see your ordering page is live. Bought two and lloking foward to using them.

Thanks much for your efforts on these.


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## crapbot (Mar 4, 2008)

No luck with the dummy cells ?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ZipMTB said:


> Thought I would bump this. I see your ordering page is live. Bought two and lloking foward to using them.
> 
> Thanks much for your efforts on these.


...so you're saying the 18650 battery holders are available?? Is there a link?


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## ZipMTB (Jan 29, 2004)

Yep......

http://www.turboferret.co.uk/Bikelights/bikelightsbuy1.php

Apparently I was first in line. Can't wait, the magnet and electrical tape process was getting old


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Guys, quick update to say that I've been busy making lots of bits, and I'm ready to start taking orders.

Zip beat me to updating 

Dummy cells will be available soon, the first mould didn't work out quite as I'd hoped, so it'll be a few days before I've got them sorted - 24 hour cure time on the silicon is a bit of a drag...










4 x 18650 cell holders










2 x 18650 holders










single 18650 holders










pouches

turboferret

I might not be able to quite meet initial demand, but I've made a bit of stock, so hopefully orders won't take too long to be completed.

Cheers, Rich


----------



## TheFunkyMonkey (Sep 18, 2007)

Just ordered 1 x 14.4 and a pouch mate.

How many orders have you had?

I can see you outsourcing in the near future to keep up!


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Assuming you are James, then you are order number 11 - pretty good going for 12 hours of being open for payment.

I think that I have now covered my not inconsiderable set-up costs, which is nice 

Expect emails with estimated despatch dates shortly.

Outsourcing might be a requirement given other work commitments!

Cheers, Rich


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## TheFunkyMonkey (Sep 18, 2007)

Coolio,

I've got the troutielight on order, so this will be a good partner when all the pieces arrive.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Hi Rich .

having watched this being born , good stuff , 

this might sound daft but can you put a pic up with the batteries in and on a playing card 
for a sense of scale . 

any strain relief for the wires 

is there a possibility of putting a 2.5 dc power socket in the end where the wires come out 

I am thinking about my light here 


Oh And thanks gareth for the prompt

Cheers Chris


----------



## kfarrar (Jan 14, 2009)

*Order placed*

Can wait to get my 2s 2p, as this it the thing I have needed to keep my project going and I just haven't found time to research, plan and make one. Thanks for doing it for me


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## ocean breathes salty (Oct 1, 2006)

Just sent through paypal for 4S. I don't know that i strictly NEED one of these, but I am toying with the idea of some long races so I guess you don't want to be caught short of batteries. Congratulations on getting everything up and running. Glad to hear you are recouping your outlay!


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Trout,

Good call on the scale front, I'll take some pics with other items for a sense of scale - not sure if I can lay my hands on any playing cards, but I'm sure I can find something suitable 

Strain relief - for the quad holders, the wires are best posted down the central hole of the holder, which should be pretty effective. This depends on the configuration, as the 1S4P has wires coming from each end, so only one wire runs through the centre, hence the little bit of shrink wrap you can see in the photos.
Twin and single holders have no central hole (and are much easier to mould as a result!) so no strain relief built in.

You could probably easily fit a little power socket which would nestle in the central hole on the quad holder, but I'll leave that to buyers to add, if they want. I have found such discrepancy of fit between plugs and sockets, that I wouldn't want to supply a part which was loose. If I'm perfectly honest, the soldering is the most tedious part of the job, I'd be more than happy to supply all the holders without wires 

Thanks for all the orders, 19 so far (for the first day of orders being open) of which 7 have been posted on the day of ordering, so hopefully I won't get too far behind, and the wait for holders won't be waiting too long!

Thanks also for the words of support from everyone, this wouldn't have progressed this far without everyone on here :thumbsup: 

Cheers, Rich


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

> the soldering is the most tedious part of the job, I'd be more than happy to supply all the holders without wires


turboferret, I have just sent a Paypal payment & I didn't need wires

I think you should add a link for the product in your signature.(if that's allowed)

Any 3 cell holders for 11.1v in the pipe line ?

Good luck.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Yeti,

Order received, many thanks 

Good call on the signature front, hopefully I won't be banned as a result - if it doesn't show up below, I've done something wrong  

You would have thought that making quad, twin and single cell holders, it would have occurred to me to make a triple, but no  

I did have a request for a 6 cell holder, but managed to resist the urge to make that!

Would be good to have a complete range though, I'll see if I can persuade my rapid-prototyper to make me a pattern  

Cheers, Rich


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## kangaroomadman (Nov 19, 2008)

Could you not just stick together 3 doubles? They look as if the batteries would still be accessible and then you can have 3s2p for 11.1V?


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Kangaroomadman,

that would certainly be one solution, but not super neat, and wouldn't satisfy people who wanted 3S1P.

3 single holders would give that, but again, not particularly neat.

I think to fully saturate the market for 18650 holders, I should offer a triple holder too, so I'll see what i can do.

Cheers, Rich


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## kangaroomadman (Nov 19, 2008)

What about 5 cells for 18.5V?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Talk about bad timing....I had to cancel my one credit card more than a week ago due to a possible security breach. The Master Card people said I would have a new card in a week. It's been more than a week and still no card.  My Pay Pal won't work without the updated card....:madman: The only thing I use the card for is buying things over the net. Don't it figure, suddenly I have a big list for D/X. I also need to renew an on-line prescription and Turboferret is selling his battery holders! Why does crap like this happen to me. God how I wish the bloody credit card hijackers would leave me alone...:madmax: Turboferret, is it possible to order something on lay-away?


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Kanga, you're just getting silly now 

Cat-man, it'll be a few days until I've got to the list of the current orders, let me know what you're after, and I'll add your name to my magic spreadsheet, and you can pay me when you get set with a new card. That way you shouldn't have to wait for me to plough through a load of other orders when you place yours.

I had you on my previous list for a pair of quad holders, but I don't know if you still want that, or your configuration wishes.

Sound fair?

Cheers, Rich


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## ortelius (Dec 6, 2007)

Rich,

Might be a silly question, but anyway: when ordering more than one battery holder, do I only add postage and packing charge once per order? In other words, if I order two holders, am I correctly assuming that I need to pay £3.00 GBP for P&P (for sending them within Europe)?

TIA


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## ktronik (Dec 23, 2006)

PM sent...

PP sent for 2 / 4cell units wired in series...

PP address is correct...

Thanks

Ktronik


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

ortelius, you only need to pay for postage on one order, not per holder.

I might make a bit of a profit on the small orders, but probably a loss on the bigger, heavier ones, so there's your incentive to buy loads of holders!

Of course several people have forgotten to include any postage at all - if you could remember that, it'd be appreciated 

Cheers, Rich


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## ortelius (Dec 6, 2007)

Rich,

PayPal payment sent for 2x 2S2P holders, 1x Pouch and 1x Europe P&P.

Cheers.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Splendid, much appreciated 

Cheers, Rich


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## b-40 (May 15, 2007)

just when i thought i had my battery dilema sorted out you go and through these beauties out there:skep: .....sheesh i just might have to order a few:thumbsup:


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

b-40, sorry to have made your life difficult!

New website is up, subtly different to the old version, but hopefully a bit more professional.

Orders are coming in steadily, which is a positive sign - keep them coming guys 

Cheers, Rich


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Cheers Rich.

That holder droped through the door just now and very impressed with it will be having a play with it soon .

You have a winner there.

Chris


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Thanks turbo,

I've just received mine.

It's very well made and the batteries are a nice tight fit.


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## b-40 (May 15, 2007)

hey rich

what is the length and diameter of the quad holder with batteries in it.

thanks


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Glad you're pleased with your holders :thumbsup:

If anything the 1st generation quad holder is a little on the tight side, so a 2nd generation is in the design process, which will be better, and also higher quality 

If I've learned anything in the process, is that it's worth spending longer getting a perfect mould, rather than cleaning up cast parts with a dremmel to remove imperfections due to air bubbles 

The overall length of the 2nd gen quads, and other holders is 88mm, and you can see below the overall width (this was with a prototype cast, but should be pretty much the same with the production items)










You may also be interested to know that the triple holder is about to make it's way from computer to rapid prototype, sneak preview below










Cheers, Rich


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## b-40 (May 15, 2007)

thanks for the measurements Rich :thumbsup: 


oh boy you've gone and done it now  

what to buy............4 holder......or wait for the 3 holder...........4 holder...........3 holder......4 holder...........3 holder.......................too many decisions


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## moggy82 (Jan 30, 2009)

Completed my 4 Holder powered P7

See Here


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

........Triple holder....triple holder...... 11.1v at last
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Crikey, I wasn't expecting such overwhelming enthusiasm for a triple 

Let' hope it's a good seller 

Cheers, Rih


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## ocean breathes salty (Oct 1, 2006)

Woot ! Mine has just arrived!!

I am suitably impressed with it! All i need to do now is order some 1850's! Perhaps I should have done that a while ago. 

(Turbo, you would have seen Mrs Salt's paypal details)


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Salty,

Glad it turned up OK and you're happy 

I received my next batch of rapid prototyped patterns on Friday, and started making moulds yesterday - the 2nd generation quad mould looks fantastic, no more air bubbles to dremmel off  

The 2nd gen is slightly longer too, the batteries aren't quite so much of a tight fit. Anyone with 1st gen quads can have 2nd gen 1/2 price if they want.

Triple holders will be available very soon too - the mould is half done, and the 2nd attempt at the dummy cell is part-way there too, no more problems with mis-alignment of the 2 halves of the mould now  

I'll be making a complete kit suitable for the P7, consisting of a holder, pouch, dummy cell, cable and grommet for protecting the cable as it runs through the torch - I've got some cables on their way from Germany at the moment. :thumbsup: 

Cheers, Rich


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## Whitedog1 (Feb 3, 2009)

Hey turboferret,

is there a possibility for a 5s battery holder too?


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Whitedog,

I'm afraid I don't think I'll be doing a 5S holder. The shape wouldn't lend itself as much to nice compact package, and the mould would most likely need to be in at least 4 sections, if not 5.

One alternative would be a twin and a triple wired together.

I cast the first 2nd gen quad holders last night, and I'm really happy with the result - they won't require any finishing with a dremmel any more 










Someone requested a photo with some scale, so here are a few more




























Cheers, Rich


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

Can i suggest something?
Why not make these frame shaped? with loops for velcro? 
Kinda like a cookie with a bite out of it, so you can mount it to the frame easily?
Great Job!


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## Jim Z in VT (Sep 9, 2007)

Damn, Ferret, those are _nice_! I need to find an excuse to buy some.

I was just given a bunch of fairly new NiCad drill batteries with chargers. I was going to liberate the cells and make bottle batteries out of them. I doubt the cells will be the right size for your holders.

But nice job man!

JZ


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Great work on the quad holders! I don't need em, but if I did, you would have another order to fill.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

SkUG, interesting idea, but I think that might make them rather too specific. Frames always have a space below the tubes where a pouch could sit, and it tucks the pack out of the way - encapsulating the tube would mean that it would stick out on each side, and would need to be the right size for the tube, otherwise it'd be a pain.

The neoprene pouch would also be a real PITA to stitch up :nono: 

As these have a very broad range of uses, I think the more compact the better, so I'll stick with the cylindrical configuration  

Cheers, Rich


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## Rock Climber (Jul 25, 2007)

turboferret said:


> Salty,
> 
> I'll be making a complete kit suitable for the P7, consisting of a holder, pouch, dummy cell, cable and grommet for protecting the cable as it runs through the torch - I've got some cables on their way from Germany at the moment. :thumbsup:
> 
> Cheers, Rich


Any idea on price for the whole set? I am definitely interested. Thanks for the great work!


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## Harpoon (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey Rich, any progress on the dummy cell?

Chris.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

For the dummy cell, I have a mould which works really well now, but I'm not quite sorted on the battery contacts yet. I bought a punch, but it's obviously not designed for copper, as blunted significantly after about half a dozen uses. This is unfortunately clearly not a viable option in the long term  Although it won't be quite as neat, I think that I may resort to cutting the contacts out of sheet with aviation snips, probably small octagons, which would be easier than circles.

Been super busy, so development of the dummy cell hasn't been the top priority, trying to keep on top of current orders has! Not complaining, it's great to have all the interest, but with travel with my day job, fitting in the necessary casting and assembly hours along with sleep has been a challenge  5.30am starts will be the typical deal to get a couple of hours on the battery holders before work :eekster: 

I have made a couple of triple holders too, although my camera decided that it didn't want to focus for me this morning, so no photos yet.

Still waiting on cables from Germany, but I am considering a slightly cheaper option for those who don't need a plugged connection, just a wire between the torch and battery pack.

Not quite decided on prices yet for a complete kit, but I'll post things up here as soon as I do  

Cheers, Rich


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

I'm not really sure how your dummy cells are designed, but would a copper pop rivet work as a contact? I was thinking that pop rivets could be used to link a copper bus bar between two ends of the dummy cell which could just be a hollow casting with a slot to fit the guts in, then it could be filled with epoxy or whatever.

This is what I am trying to describe:









Something like these rivets:
https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220175345747


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Huffy,

that is a superb idea, I'd never thought of using a rivet in the end, and didn't even know you could get copper ones 

I'd rather not redesign my pattern, but I'll see if a rivet would work with my current design.

Cheers, Rich


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Thanks Rich! I just scrolled up and saw your pic of the dummy cell and realized that the one I sketched looks almost the same (I think I must have seen your design before). I would bet it would work with rivets if they would not stick out too far, and the material on the ends is not too thick, so they can expand inside. If not, you may need a rather long rivet, longer than the ones I linked to.


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## Psycho Mike (Apr 2, 2006)

Looks like I just solved my battery problem for my Deesta housing  Rich, I've got an email to you for confirmation that my reading of the page is correct (I shouldn't try to type when it is late...) but I may end up going for a pouch too.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Right, quick update on a few products 

Triple holders are pretty much ready to rock and roll, couple of pics below (click to embiggen)

   

That'll be in 11.1v and 3.7v flavours. This comes out of a 3 part mould, which takes a bit more cunningness than the other holders, which are all 2 part moulds. I need to make a jig to stop it compressing when you clamp the parts together, but it's 95% there, available for purchase very soon.

On the dummy cell front, we have our first fully working prototype



This one is using circular copper ends, but the production items will most likely use a copper rivet as suggested by HuffyPuffy :thumbsup:

I cut a slot in a P7 to see how it'd work all assembled, and I reckon it's a goer  Several more shots below

   

There are pros and cons to cutting a slot up from the bottom, rather than drilling a hole in the side.

Pros being that it's easier to get the cell in and out, getting the dummy cell stuck inside the battery tube would be a pain. Also, you can easily swap back to a single cell should you want, just be removing the 2 o-rings and sliding out the cable and dummy cell.

Cons are that the unit won't be quite as well sealed, as even if you plug the grommet after removing the cable, there will still be a little exposed slot between the grommet and the tail cap.

All in all, I'm quite pleased, although I need to improve my dremmeling 



Hopefully have rivets in a few days to assemble a few more hopefully finished items.

Cheers, Rich


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## escyb (May 9, 2007)

Great WORK Rich!! I can't wait for the package to be ready!!

Edwin
([email protected])


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## j5ive (Sep 24, 2005)

Thats pretty rad. How bright are the p7s exactly? and which is the best model to buy? What sort of runtime can you expect with a 4 cell?


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

How Bright = VERY although I find myself running 2 
If you think 4hours you won't be far off, but most of your riding will be fine on Medium then 9hours.

MTE 5Mode models I say personally, mine have been good!!


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## moggy82 (Jan 30, 2009)

You been using my lights Dyl?

I run one 4 cell holder with my crocodile clip version, i.e no dummy battery just a hole with wires through and crocodile clips to the springs.

The runtime and brightness depends on the driver that is in the torch, i had a MTE P7-D, but the 4 batteries blew the driver so i got a driver off KD and it works very well with the batteries. 

Mine is about 

4-5 hours on full (540 lumens)
9-10 hours on med (275 lumens)
60+ hours on low (30-40 lumens)

I do run a second normal battery power P7 aswell to take output to 1100 lumens on the bars for the fun stuff, pair this with a MCE with a tighter beam on your helmet and you'll never need more light.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Not until you kill yourself on a ride with me, bagsy your lights by the way 

Not going to risk a 4 Cell on my torches can't afford to replace them if they go BANG


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## Hack On Wheels (Apr 29, 2006)

I've been following this on and off for a bit now, and I must say, great job! These look wonderfully made and I'm itching to buy some even before I have any projects lined up.

A few questions though... With the quad holders, is it possible for a person to reconfigure the wiring? As in, is it possible to change them from 4s1p to 2s2p or even 1s4p?

Apart from one Li-Ion 14.8V pack I have, I've always used NiMH rechargeables so far, so I'd need to figure out charging for these. What chargers are recommended for 18650s? It would be nice to be able to charge at least 4 at a time... This setup could lend itself to great versatility for my future lights. I guess I could hook up the charger with 4 batteries to my current charger for my 14.8V pack, but having options would be nice. Also, where do people recommend getting 3.7V 18650 cells from? AW on CPF comes to mind, unless there are better sources out there.

One more thing, about the question of strain relief... how concerned would I have to be about that? I've temporarily lost one of my battery packs to a snapped wire, so this would be a concern for me. Thought, could I potentially heatshrink the wires together and then epoxy the wires against the battery pack for a section so as to only expose the wires when they are heatshrink-ed together and thus more robust? (This would especially be a concern for me on the smaller packs.) Not sure how expoxy would interact with the material of the holder.

Sorry for all the questions ("a few" wasn't very accurate), but if turboferret or anyone else has answers for me, that would be awesome!


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Hack,

Glad to see you're interested!

I'll try and answer all of your questions:

*Wiring configuration* - all you need is a soldering iron and some wire to change the configuration of the packs - should be a 5 minute job if you have the right sort of tools to hand - a solder sucker might prove useful too, as I use a pretty liberal amount of solder when assembling.

*Charging* - I use a pair of cheap chargers from Dealextreme, 

for charging 4 cells at a time. As I needed a UK plug, I chopped the supplied plugs off, and wired them both into one plug. They seem to work fine. You shouldn't charge all of the cells together in the pack (unless they're all in parallel) as the cells can become unbalanced. This is where the simplicity of my packs is a drawback, as there is no balance circuit built in, which you would get with an assembled pack, a small PCB to ensure that all of the cells are charged properly.

*Cells* - I have heard good things about AW's cells, so you probably can't go wrong. Personally I've always used cheap Dealextreme ones, with no issues, but I have heard that the capacity is always significantly lower than advertised, and the protection circuitry isn't worth having 

*Strain relief* - on the quads, with most wiring configurations, the wires exit the holder through the central hole, so I don't think that they should be too susceptible to fatigue failure. As I'm selling these with flying leads, I leave them loose to give the user as much flexibility, but a bit of epoxy down the hole after you've wired up your cable would make sure that they were nicely protected

I hope that addresses all of your queries!

I have received my copper rivets which will form the contacts for my dummy cells, tweaked the pattern and made a new mould to accommodate them properly.

 

I have also received cables from Germany, which seem very good, so a complete P7 remote kit will be available imminently  These will be in a variety of configurations, cable with plug, simple cable, quad or twin battery holder. Modifying the torch is very easy too, 10 minutes with a hacksaw, and a small file to tidy up is all you need.

In other exciting news, I'm about to buy a small mill, which I will convert to CNC, which opens up a huge range of possible products for Turboferret Industries  I might start offering a service of modifying torches for customers, although this would probably only be worthwhile for those in the UK. This would be for slotting to fit a cable, and drilling and tapping for a bar mount.

Cheers, Rich


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Quick note to say that I have complete P7 kits available 



Kit consists of dummy cell wired to a holder, either with a plugged Sigma cable, or with a simple cable, a pouch and a grommet.

Available to suit pretty much all the options I can think of, quad and twin holders, and also for twin lights too.

I'm offering a discount for buying a complete kit over the parts individually, so it's better value 

I bought 15 Sigma cables as a start, which I would expect will go pretty quickly!

Cheers, Rich


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## Rock Climber (Jul 25, 2007)

Rich,

Thanks for doing these! I held off buying the P7 light until these were ready and I noticed on you site you say the 2-mode should be able to handle the battery pack wit no mods. What do you think about this light?

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12325


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

I find the 2 mode to be solid and reliable, and excellent value. While the 5 mode may have a more usable mid power level, it also has annoying strobe and SOS modes. After someone on this board managed to fry the rather basic driver built into the 5 mode, I'd be happiest sticking to the 2 mode.

My thoughts would be that you need lots of modes to conserve power if you have limited run-time, but an external pack extending the run negates this to a certain extent, so there isn't so much need to dim your lights whenever they aren't needed at maximum dazzle level 

I've ordered a further 4 of the sku 12325's today for demo set-ups, which should answer your question more conclusively 

Cheers, Rich


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## Harpoon (Jun 5, 2008)

Can anyone think of any gotchas or downsides to running 2 4S1P holders together to give a 14.8v 4.4aH battery pack?


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## ocean breathes salty (Oct 1, 2006)

Harpoon said:


> Can anyone think of any gotchas or downsides to running 2 4S1P holders together to give a 14.8v 4.4aH battery pack?


Physical size would be quite large.......


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## Harpoon (Jun 5, 2008)

True. Guess it would be bigger than the 2.2aH and 4.4aH packs I already have from Tenergy.


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

I have made a few custom holders for folk, a guy in Spain wanted a 6 cell holder, so I basically stuck 3 twin holders together, which worked pretty well, and gave a neat solution.



















I could do the same for an 8 cell holder, which would pack slightly neater than a pair of quad holders.

Using a holder rather than individual cells soldered and shrink wrapped will always be slightly larger.

Cheers, Rich


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Looks cool, I had seen somebody posted that holder here for a light build but did not see it on your site. Seems like you could sell the 2 cell holders and make a mechanical clip molded into the body which would allow people to slide "latch" them together if they want to expand them out to as many as they want. Similar to the design of the Anderson connectors that were posted by El34 here:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=518298&highlight=Anderson


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## Harpoon (Jun 5, 2008)

Interesting Rich - cheers.

Thinking about it though, if you had a "fixed" 8 cell pack, you'd need to have all 8 cells charged, even for a short ride. I could see my good lady getting upset when there are battery chargers hanging out of every mains socket in the house 

So two 4 cell holders gives better flexiability and it's not that much time to disconnect and reconnect.


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## HakanC (May 12, 2007)

Harpoon said:


> Thinking about it though, if you had a "fixed" 8 cell pack, you'd need to have all 8 cells charged, even for a short ride.


Not with a 4s2p 8 cell pack, you would only need 4.
But you would need to put them in the right slots.

/Håkan
SWEDEN


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## turboferret (Apr 1, 2008)

Harpoon,

Given that it's a 4S2P configuration, you wouldn't need to have all 8 cells inserted to give 14.8v, you could leave one bank empty, and run it as a 4S1P.

Just a thought, it might not be as inflexible as you think. However, a pair of quads would ultimately be a more flexible solution.

*IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT*

From 16th June, I will be relocating to Dubai, returning to the UK for 1 week a month. This does not mean the end of Turboferret Industries, although it does have implications for the continued running.

I will be taking production equipment out with me, to continue churning out holders, but given that the postal service from there doesn't seem anything like as good as the Royal Mail from the UK, either in terms of cost, reliability or speed, I will only be sending out orders from the UK.

This will mean that on average there will be a 2-3 week lead time on orders, certainly no more than a month.

Obviously the move towards injection moulding will be much slower than anticipated, but hopefully it will happen eventually.

Orders have been coming in at a good rate, hopefully this change won't put too many people off.

Cheers, Rich


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## Harpoon (Jun 5, 2008)

I hadn't thought of that HakanC & Rich.

Will order a couple of 4S1P when I'm back from my hol's in a couple of weeks. Hope the relocation goes well Rich.


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## HakanC (May 12, 2007)

I forgot one thing in my post above



Harpoon said:


> I could see my good lady getting upset when there are battery chargers hanging out of every mains socket in the house.


At least here in Sweden you can get switched extension outlets very cheap
This is a 6-way








https://www.kjell.com/content/templ...item=39620&path=304000000,325000000,333000000
And it costs <3.50 GBP (incl 25% sales tax)

Guess what I use 

/Håkan
SWEDEN


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