# Dept store bikes, I know, I know...



## MountaineerLegion (Dec 7, 2009)

Ok folks, don't flame me too fast. I've read for several hours, including the sticky post about Dept store bikes and I'm still stuck, so I'm turning to you all. 

Here's my problem: My son wants a new bike for Xmas, because he's destroyed his last two Dept store bikes that sold for about $130-150. He's only 13 and still growing, weighs about 180 and is about 5'8" maybe a tad taller...yes, he's going to be a big kid.

I got tired of trying to piece the cheap bikes back together and my wife and I went to the only LBS in town and he told us to get a Trek 3700...I'm guessing because our budget is only $400. Unless I'm misunderstaning everyone it seems this Trek 3700 isn't really well liked...and the dept store bikes aren't well liked. 

My son isn't jumping off five foot cliffs or running thirty miles per hour down a trail of bowling ball sized boulders. He's rough on bikes though...he destroyed the front fork on a dept store bike, has bent wheels, ripped out spokes, smashed hadlebars into trees etc. etc. He likes riding through sloppy trails in the woods, small jumps and dowh hills (at least small relative to what you folks seem to be talking about)? He also "thinks" he wants a bike with a rear suspension.

Finally, the question, am I better off with this Trek 3700 ($350) with no suspension, no disc brakes etc. or would I be better off with...lets say a Mongoose Blackcomb ($299) with suspension, with disc brakes, etc etc.

Or should I go with something else? Get rid of the kid? Help me out folks, the wife is gettin testy over this. Get rid of the wife?

Thanks for any help in advance.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Getting rid of the wife will cost you a lot more than $350 - you're stuck with her.

I'd go with the Trek - a quality hard tail over a janky, heavy FS bike.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Buy a quality used bike , can be found as cheap as $150.00 .


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## johnny dollar (Nov 17, 2009)

...maybe some football pads. your kid is a monster! I mean that in a good way.

since he's riding a whole lot, perhaps he knows the exact kind/size of bike he wants. in that case, maybe bikesdriect.com could offer a more durable and economic option.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

if u know how to build a bike, u can buy online at bikesdirect.com or many other stores.

i suggest going to the lbs and checking out the specialized hardrock, cannondale f9, and trek 3700. let the kid take them for a test ride. @ 5'8 hes going to ride size M, 17" in each one. 

U don't have the funds to spend on a good FS bike since i can't recommend one new for under $1000


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

At 13 years old he is going to out grow a new bike in as little as 6 months , that is why I suggest a used bike . Until he quits growing theres no telling how fast or to what extent he is going to grow . A bicycle bought now might be useless to him in 6 months .


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## quietcornerrider (Jun 6, 2009)

Used bikes are the way to go.

I know no kid wants to get a used bike for Christmas. They're supposed to be all bright and shiny so HE can go muddy it up, but so far its the best advice.

Try craigslist. You'd be surprised what you can find there. Or wait until after Christmas, and try to find a good deal online. But thats only if you're dead set on a new bike.


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## ae111black (Dec 27, 2008)

+1 on taking him to the lbs and get him sized on the bike! Waaay more important than bells and whistles.....I know it's hard to reason with a 13 yr old but tell him it will be worth it! And avoid the bike area at wallyworld!


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## pauleyd (Nov 20, 2009)

quietcornerrider said:


> Used bikes are the way to go.
> 
> I know no kid wants to get a used bike for Christmas. They're supposed to be all bright and shiny so HE can go muddy it up, but so far its the best advice.
> 
> Try craigslist. You'd be surprised what you can find there. Or wait until after Christmas, and try to find a good deal online. But thats only if you're dead set on a new bike.


Yes try cragslist...I just bought a 2009 F5 for 450 and a 2009 F7 for 400. Both bikes looked like they jsut came off of the show roomfloor


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## fightnut (Jul 5, 2007)

If you're budget is $400, definitely look at used bikes on craigslist. You'll definitely get more for your money then anything at a bike shop for $400.


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## MountaineerLegion (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks for the help folks...man this is an active forum.

Appreciate the used bike suggestions.  Looking now. I've already gotten a few pms....anyone in VA or close send me a note.


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## BigSharks (Oct 4, 2009)

Don't look past eBay either (in addition to CL). Stay away from Mongoose- if you keep getting those bikes, one of these days he's going to have a bad accident on a trail.

Couple more months, you'll be on the Clydes forum with the size of Junior.


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## MountaineerLegion (Dec 7, 2009)

Ok folks....I think I'm sold on the used bike thing. I've been on the Richmond VA and Northern VA craiglist pages. There are a TON of bikes people claim they paid way more than I could have paid, hardly rode it and are selling cheap. 

Who'da thunk there were that many used bikes out there? How do I keep from buying the golden gate bridge? 

Really do appreciate the help folks.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

beware tho, everyone is going to underwrite the total amount of time riding the bike. And by make sure u know the price of the bike as new; so u dont get ripped off. 

Also make sure u test ride the bike and make sure every function on the bike is in "as advertised" working order: all shifters can shift into every gear, wheels are straight and no damage, tires hold air and have no cuts in the sidewall, the fork compresses when u press down on it or when riding and feels good. no deep scratches on the frame or anywhere else on the bike.


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## sanjuro (Sep 29, 2004)

Get him a Surly 1x1.

No gears, no suspension, no problems.

Since he is only 13, he is unwilling to maintain his bike. A rigid single speed will teach him if he can't maintain, he has to deal.

(If you feel real kind, get an used Marzocchi Bomber).


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## MountaineerLegion (Dec 7, 2009)

louisssss said:


> beware tho, everyone is going to underwrite the total amount of time riding the bike. And by make sure u know the price of the bike as new; so u dont get ripped off.
> 
> Also make sure u test ride the bike and make sure every function on the bike is in "as advertised" working order: all shifters can shift into every gear, wheels are straight and no damage, tires hold air and have no cuts in the sidewall, the fork compresses when u press down on it or when riding and feels good. no deep scratches on the frame or anywhere else on the bike.


louisssssssss,

Therein lies my next problem. Short of having Lance Armstrong sell the bike (I think I would recognize him), all I can do is trust the sellers knowledge and word on most of this stuff. You guys seem to eat and breath this stuff (I really am surprised at how active this board is). I don't even know what I don't know.

I may have a plan though.

Thanks again folks.


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## Mike Di (Dec 21, 2007)

*here's what you can do*

Spend the money and upgrade all the parts on YOUR bike. Then put all the hand me downs on HIS bike. It's much more satisfying.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

MountaineerLegion said:


> louisssssssss,
> 
> Therein lies my next problem. Short of having Lance Armstrong sell the bike (I think I would recognize him), all I can do is trust the sellers knowledge and word on most of this stuff. You guys seem to eat and breath this stuff (I really am surprised at how active this board is). I don't even know what I don't know.
> 
> ...


okay so you're in a pretty big dilemma. You won't be able to identify what used bikes are good and not good; short of "this one looks clean so it must be good"

If i were in your situation, i'd just go with buying a new bike since u can guarantee everything will work and u get the perks of free service from your LBS for a year and also u get the satisfaction of owning a new bike.

I say this because buying a used bike will only get you a 50/50% chance of getting a good bike versus a bad bike. Those odds are not good enough for me to just throw down a few hundred bucks. The people suggesting you used bikes probably have a higher chance of identifying a good used bike, more like 90% chance of getting a good one, as opposed to your 50/50 draw.


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## MountaineerLegion (Dec 7, 2009)

Just for giggles folks, what about a stock (I presume) Trek 6000 for $350? Bikepedia states sugg ret was $750?


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## Mount Dora Cycles (May 29, 2009)

louisssss said:


> okay so you're in a pretty big dilemma. You won't be able to identify what used bikes are good and not good; short of "this one looks clean so it must be good"
> 
> If i were in your situation, i'd just go with buying a new bike since u can guarantee everything will work and u get the perks of free service from your LBS for a year and also u get the satisfaction of owning a new bike.
> 
> I say this because buying a used bike will only get you a 50/50% chance of getting a good bike versus a bad bike. Those odds are not good enough for me to just throw down a few hundred bucks. The people suggesting you used bikes probably have a higher chance of identifying a good used bike, more like 90% chance of getting a good one, as opposed to your 50/50 draw.


Best advice on this thread so far. If you have no idea what you are buying, go to a LBS. We are here on God's green Earth to help people buy the right bike.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

what year is the trek6000? its a pretty high end bike compared to what ur looking for.

although it is a very nice bike, still the most impt thing is the condition of it used, make sure everything is in working order by shifting through the gears, visually inspecting wheels and tires.

consider meeting at a bike shop to have a bike mechanic look at it and see what needs repairs and the price. consider having him pay for all fixes before u buy the bike so that hes not selling a "broken" bike


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## markf (Jan 17, 2007)

have you talked to as many LBSs as possible about used bikes? call around and ask about used mountain bikes in a 17 inch frame (guessing based on the size of the kid with maybe a little room to grow, hell a smaller 19 inch might be good too), but they take him to see it. ask about sturdy wheels, etc. if you don't know much about bikes, the shop guys are there to help you. used bikes can be hard to track down sometimes, but call around to any shop you'd be willing to travel to and ask about used mountain bikes. hell, if you're lucky you can find a couple year old new bike that a shop is willing to mark way way down.


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## fightnut (Jul 5, 2007)

BigSharks said:


> Stay away from Mongoose- if you keep getting those bikes, one of these days he's going to have a bad accident on a trail.


You should clarify that there is "department store Mongoose", and then there is "real bike shop Mongoose". A world of difference.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

For purposes of clarity department store Mongoose has been christened the "Walgoose".


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

reasonable tip.. dont look at treks, they mark up their price based on the "trek" sticker attached to them. they're fine bikes, but you pay more for their lower end bikes, and they have worse components. 

the slightly off brand low end bikes are better values.. a GT, performancebike brand bike, a forge sawback. even giant has some really good deals on cheap/good bikes.

i rode the living hell out of my last bike.. i mean really hammered it to the limits of its components and broke more than a few.. i also maintained it every ride, replaced all damaged parts and frequently inspected the frame. it was in really great condition when i sold it and the guy got a deal. 

bikes are supposed to be used, if they're in good shape nothing else matters much. a guy who owned and loved/rode the bike a lot is more likely to have kept up with it versus the guy who rode around the block once, hated it, and stuffed it in a shed for 3 years. dont worry about some scuffs and wear! if its a gift you can clean it up nicely and do some paint touchup (testors model paint tends to work well).

also i bet your kid is doing ungodly things to the bike that you dont know of  buying something a little extra burly might just save him an accident or two. some kids get seriously injured trying to jump cheap bikes.


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## Mr Pink57 (Jul 30, 2009)

An interesting idea might be to buy just a frame and maybe build it up with him? Little father son time and giving the knowledge of bike maintenance. Plus this gives you an excuse to upgrade your bike and put hand me downs on his 

pink


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

My only suggestion to you is too go a size or 2 bigger. For the moment but it will allow him to grow into it, unless you dont think he is going to get any taller.


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

Dremer03 said:


> My only suggestion to you is too go a size or 2 bigger. For the moment but it will allow him to grow into it, unless you dont think he is going to get any taller.


Worst advice so far. :nono: Like shoes, there is no "growing into it", unless you want him to get hurt and be sore from a poor fitting bike and then never ride the thing. The cost is a problem, which is why looking for something used is a good price.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

emtnate said:


> Worst advice so far. :nono: Like shoes, there is no "growing into it", unless you want him to get hurt and be sore from a poor fitting bike and then never ride the thing. The cost is a problem, which is why looking for something used is a good price.


Have you ever looked at younger riders on the trail? I always and I repeat always see them riding bikes much larger than they are. I never had a issue riding larger bikes when I was a kid, plus the kid is 13 and is 5' 8", by the time the guy buys the bike he will have probably grown another half a foot.:thumbsup: I obviously the kid has no problem riding a horrible walmart bike so why wouldn't he ride the bike regardless of the size, when all walmart bikes are ill fitting one size fits all.

I say if he can get on the bike and it feels good and he can manage not to smash his boys into the top tube, then your good to go.


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

There's a lot more to bike fit than racking yourself on the top tube. But then you don't fit a bike by standover height alone either. 

Get a bike that fits, this is not a place to cut corners. Don't listen to this tool.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

emtnate said:


> Don't listen to this tool.


Setting good examples one post at a time :thumbsup:

1) The message insults or degrades another member of the community.
2) The message contains profanity, offensive language, or racial epithets. 
7)The message is posted as "flame-bait" and is posted to incite flames and insults.

Read them, set good examples :thumbsup: 
http://www.mtbr.com/guidelinescrx.aspx#manuguidelines


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Do you not have any friends who are 'into' bikes? If you do, call in a favour and get one of them to help you find a decent used bike. Trek, Giant, Cannondale, Specialized, something like that.

Sizing wise - very loose guidelines: At least 3 inches between crotch and top tube while standing flat-footed next to bike. Both toes touching (on tippy-toe) whilst sitting on saddle. Brake levers adjusted so open hand rest on them with lever in line with 1st finger joints.

Before someone jumps all over this post those are loose guidelines for kids bikes.

Good luck finding the right bike, and props to you for making the effort to get your kid something decent instead of a dept. store BSO.

EDIT: I'd also recommend a BMX at his age, IMHO kids go to geared bikes too soon, often before learning good bike handling skills, a couple years on a BMX will serve him well in his later cycling life, and a half-decent BMX will take a lot more abuse than a mountain bike.


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

Dremer - go ahead and tell on me. I'm just calling out bad advice as I see it.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

emtnate said:


> Dremer - go ahead and tell on me. I'm just calling out bad advice as I see it.


Calling out what you would call bad advice is one thing. Making it personal by calling names, using language that is obscene and can immediately cause flaming war back and forth is different. Be a adult, not a high school student. If you are a high school student, shouldn't you be in class?

Back to the topic already in progress.:thumbsup:

By what you can afford, what fits him (and I mean that loosely because he is growing), and dont forget a helmet and gloves while you are at it.


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

Dremer03 said:


> ...
> By what you can afford, what fits him (and I mean that loosely because he is growing)..


So are you admitting your advice was wrong? Now you say buy a bike that fits, not one that is 2 sizes too big. I'm confused....


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

emtnate said:


> So are you admitting your advice was wrong? Now you say buy a bike that fits, not one that is 2 sizes too big. I'm confused....


no I basically said buy what loosely fits him, my opinion remains in tact in fact I believe it was markf who first made the suggestion, I was kind of backing him up. He is a growing 13 year old who is already taller than a average full grown man...the kid needs some room to grow, not a bike he will out grow in 2 months.


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## JPark (Aug 12, 2009)

> Dremer - go ahead and tell on me. I'm just calling out bad advice as I see it.


Have to agree with Dremer on this one 
At his current height, he would likely be fitted to a medium frame, which would likely be too small within a year. Unless the OP has enough money to buy another new bike every few months, I think not going a little large is bad advice.


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

^^ there is a difference between a "little" large and jumping up 2 sizes as Dremer first suggested. On a mountain bike, most people can ride 2 sizes comfortably. But there is a big different between a 17" and 21" frame. ETT on Rockhoppers in those sizes have a 2" difference, pretty big jump to grow into and is not a little large.


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## JPark (Aug 12, 2009)

emtnate said:


> ^^ there is a difference between a "little" large and jumping up 2 sizes as Dremer first suggested. On a mountain bike, most people can ride 2 sizes comfortably. But there is a big different between a 17" and 21" frame. ETT on Rockhoppers in those sizes have a 2" difference, pretty big jump to grow into and is not a little large.


EET can be adjusted by moving the seat a little foward and getting a shorter stem. Not quite a perfect scenario, but doable, and way cheaper.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Mr Pink57 said:


> An interesting idea might be to buy just a frame and maybe build it up with him? Little father son time and giving the knowledge of bike maintenance. Plus this gives you an excuse to upgrade your bike and put hand me downs on his
> 
> pink


We did this with my friends son. He had a full 8spd XT group, bought his son a new mountain bike with lower end derailleurs and shifters so we swapped all the XT stuff on to the new bike. We had a bunch of fun doing the swap and the boy was happy as could be.


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## gravitylover (Sep 1, 2009)

You are in the DC area I take it? If you want the *best* possible deal on a used bike from one of the most honest guys I know go to College Park or Mt Airy Bikes and talk to Larry or one of his employees. They love bikes, love to ride and have an incredible selection of used bikes in your price range. http://bike123.com/ Give them a call first to find out which of the two shops has the better selection.


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## ibis26 (Apr 6, 2009)

Hi all ! Sounds like my stepson......we got him a specialized hardrock comp disc , one size bigger than what he needed.....2 years later it is still holding up pretty dang good , a few replacement parts here and there but overall a good choice.....


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

emtnate said:


> On a mountain bike, most people can ride 2 sizes comfortably. But there is a big different between a 17" and 21" frame. .


I didn't mean 2 sizes like 17 to 21 which is what I would consider 4 sizes larger. I meant like if he fit a 17 he should possibly try a 19.:thumbsup:


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Dremer03 said:


> I didn't mean 2 sizes like 17 to 21 which is what I would consider 4 sizes larger. I meant like if he fit a 17 he should possibly try a 19.:thumbsup:


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

nachomc said:


>


Stop hitting yourself.

My logic is sound. The Trek 3700 comes in 16, 18, 19.5. So if he fits or is a bit large for a 16 which I wager he is, then he should try out the 18 or even the 19.5 and see what he thinks.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Dremer03 said:


> Stop hitting yourself.
> 
> My logic is sound. The Trek 3700 comes in 16, 18, 19.5. So if he fits or is a bit large for a 16 which I wager he is, then he should try out the 18 or even the 19.5 and see what he thinks.


I was face-palming at your description of 1" increments constituting a size up, when most (all?) manufacturers do not offer sizes like 16", 17", 18", 19" - they generally jump 1.5+ inches per size (as your example of Trek shows). Thus, your "advice", as usual, was incomplete and confusing, and caused the flame war you accused emtnate of trying to incite.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

nachomc said:


> I was face-palming at your description of 1" increments constituting a size up, when most (all?) manufacturers do not offer sizes like 16", 17", 18", 19" - they generally jump 1.5+ inches per size (as your example of Trek shows). Thus, your "advice", as usual, was incomplete and confusing, and caused the flame war you accused emtnate of trying to incite.


Sorry to be so confusing, not my fault he assumed what he did.:thumbsup:

I'm just going to add on to this. You say that most manufacturers do there sizes in 2 inches increments? My thought is that manufacturers are in fact skipping a size. Some frames come in 16, 18, 20, 22 from certain manufacturers. Others size manufacturers 15, 17, 19, 21. My thought is seeing this means that it is in fact manufacturers that skip sizes. Because frames can be got in sizes 12-22, its just a matter of finding the right bike hence riding different companies bikes to find the right size. So if his son fits a 17 inch, I say jump him into a 19 inch (example).


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## Andrea138 (Mar 25, 2009)

How about a used rigid singlespeed?


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

Andrea138 said:


> How about a used rigid singlespeed?


That would be a very quick way for him to get in shape, and would be very durable...virtually nothing to break.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Wow... Your son's pretty big.

At 5'8", a 17" bike would be a good fit, but my experience test-riding a 17" and a 19" (I'm a skosh over 5'8" myself) was that the 17" was really only slightly better. Unless he just quits growing right now, the 19" would be a better investment.

As far as a shiny new bike is concerned... I agree that it's not cost-effective if you can get a used bike from a trustworthy source. With your stated level of knowledge, I also agree with the suggestion to get one at a shop. You can usually get some measure of guarantee on used bikes, although usually not as good as on a new bike. Maybe splurge on some new tires or a set of forearm guards or something.

If you can't find an LBS near you that deals in used bikes, get the Trek. It'll be a lot lighter than a dept. store bike, and a lot stronger, and the suspension systems on department store bikes frequently have no damper, meaning they actually make a bike less stable on a fast descent. Maintenance on department store bikes is often also a real disaster - you start trying to replace one thing and discover other broken parts or compatibility issues that pretty soon have you throwing out have the parts group.

Ask about previous-year's models too. Sometimes LBSs will have a few still kicking around, and sometimes you can also get them to phone their warehouse and find out if they have a few. They'll still charge you a markup and corral your maintenance business, so it's not like you're ripping them off, and you can stretch your money a little further if a previous-year's bike is available.

And finally, if you buy used, go and buy a bottle of this...








Shiny and new don't have to go together.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

i say a 19" bike would be a better investment also, he'll grow out of a 17" bike in a year and you'll be out $400-500, unless u take the hassle to sell it and by then you'll still be out $200 for not buying the 19" right now.


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## MountaineerLegion (Dec 7, 2009)

Hey folks, thanks again for the replies. To cover some of the suggestions/questions:

I don't ride and don't know hoot about bikes...thus my search for advice on this site. So, upgrading or building one is out. Ditto for knowing someone into bikes to call in a favor.

Local bike shops...we have, one, uno, eins, un, and the guy there while very nice suggested the Trek 3700. I'm not averse to the Trek...but I've found several sites saying that bike is ok, but not all it should be...plus I think the shop has it overpriced a little...it will cost a little over $400 with tax and that's bone stock. Is that overpriced?

Size/fit wise...I'm going to caveat this by stating again I don't know hoot but I do think I'm inclined to go a tad big. Given the way the boy is eating the growing aint done. The guy at the only LBS said he was guessing 18" perhaps a tad bigger but really wanted to fit him. Aside from outgrowing it and the associated money issue the reason I'm inclined towards this is precisely what someone stated above...he's been riding crap and just loves it, he wasn't fit for it, it came off the rack at walmart. To put it in perspective, he rode the current hunk of junk for several months this summer with one pedal! I'm not making that up. He broke the pedal, tried to take it off by himself and stripped the threads on the hunk of metal the pedal screws into. This was the gazillionth failure on this bike (i'm not even counting the two bmx bikes that ended up in the dump). I thought all these failures were his fault (it now seems the bike was doomed to failure given it's quality) and told him he would have to fix it himself. I now feel like a heel and...well that's why I'm trying to get him another one for Xmas.

For the guy that said he is probably doing ungodly things to the bike....all I can say is, you sir, obviously have a teenage son. I believe he destroyed the fork on one of the bmx bikes by trying to jump the creek behind our house...I'm guessing he came up short and drove the front wheel into the face of the bank on the other side..........I can only imagine that as he flew over the handlebars the thought going through his head was...."this isn't good....next time I need a bigger ramp".

All the suggestions and comments did lead me to one point I should throw out...given that he rode a bike with one pedal for about two months and never complained I'm not sure he needs/wants the kind of performance that comes with "lightweight". I think my priorities right now are:

First - Functionality (I tried the disc brakes on a bike at walmart and it wouldn't stop the wheel...I could roll the bike down the aisle with the brake on)
Second - Durability (see above about jumping creek)
Third - Cost (no explanation req)
Last - Performance (if one pedal is acceptable, I don't want to buy a frame made of unobtainium).

For the guy that suggested the two shops near DC that sell used bikes, that may be my next stop. Our LBS didn't sell used bikes. If I can find a way to identify an acceptable bike without going retail I'd still prefer that.

Any of you out there in the northern VA area?

Sorry for the long post.


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## JPark (Aug 12, 2009)

Seems like you picked up on all the important matters, and all your logic as stated above is sound. With your limited knowledge, buying used would be a huge gamble. The 3700 would be a good choice, but the price is high as you suspected. Try any shop within a reasonable distance. Brand does not matter as most bikes in this range will be of similar quality. Obviously, finding a shop with an 09 in stock would be your best bet.

Next, I would encourage your son, and you, to learn more about working on bikes. No matter what you choose, it will break. Plus the knowledge you gain from making repairs will allow you to better choose a used bike should the need arise in the future.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

If you think the 3700 is too pricey check out the Trek 3500 or the 820. $400 for a 2010 Trek 3700 should be about right, the MSRP is $409. Bikesdirect.com also has a lot of good deals on sub 400 dollar bikes, even a few rigid 29er single speed bikes. Bikes to look at are the Motobecane 600HT, 500H, 700HT (if you could afford 450.00 it will destroy all for the price), Outcast 29er, and Stout 29er.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

Dremer03 said:


> If you think the 3700 is too pricey check out the Trek 3500 or the 820. $400 for a 2010 Trek 3700 should be about right, the MSRP is $409.


Does this apply????



Dremer03 said:


> Its a cool bike, good parts, good company, F the haters.


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

If you know squat about bikes, I wouldn't go for the bikesdirect / motobecane brand unless you are willing to pay the shop to assemble the bike or do some research and assemble it yourself. Building a bike from the factory box is not difficult and you can find good directions, but remember to consider the total cost compared to the LBS.

When I was a teenager, I had a Trek 820, the steel frame held up to -most- everything I threw at it. I did have a 'mishap' involving some creekside rollers and broke a fork, wheel, handlebar, and my helmet beyond repair. This also entailed a visit to our neighborhood ER. 

As for Dremer's sizing, sorry, but again you are wrong. 17-19-21, 18-20-22, all jumps in single sizes for different brands. Some brands go XS-S-M-L-XL too. Jumping 2 sizes from small to large is still a huge jump. 

Mountaineer, there is plenty of good advice to be found on this board, but consider your sources. One poster has no clue how bikes are sized, and advocates stealing bikes from bike racks. Filter that out, and you have good information to help your decision making.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

seriously, dont buy a bike even one size too large. when he outgrows the bike, buy a new one. or one of the many <100 dollar frames they sell all over.

do a quick search on some of the people giving weird advise. nothing wrong with having a budget, and nothing wrong with buying entry level bikes.. but buy the one thats going to work best for your needs, and one that *fits*.


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## ThePinkBarron (Aug 28, 2008)

I dont think I have seen this in the thread yet...

Get him a good quality helmet to go with his new bike, and encourage him to wear it.

btw you can show him this site, because most of us wear helmets and there are some really badass riders on here.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

One Pivot said:


> seriously, dont buy a bike even one size too large. when he outgrows the bike, buy a new one. or one of the many <100 dollar frames they sell all over.
> 
> do a quick search on some of the people giving weird advise. nothing wrong with having a budget, and nothing wrong with buying entry level bikes.. but buy the one thats going to work best for your needs, and one that *fits*.


Agreed , fit is the single most importent component . A frame that is too large can result in grevious injury .


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## bad news (Jul 12, 2008)

Just thought I'd point out, there's no reason you can't ask the LBS to look over a used bike before you purchase it. The couple bucks it might cost you is cheaper than buying a lemon.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

There are 2 sides to the argument of buying which size: buying the 100% correct sized bike now and lose about $200-300 in a few months when its summer 2010, or buy him 1 size up now and get a better bike now that he'll grow into. There are arguments for each side, and to summarize it goes something like this:

-bad fit = some more danger involved, but its not like hes riding a bike where he can't reach the pedals while on the seat, nor can his arms reach the handlebar when hes in the seat. Hes in his teens, he has common sense, if he falls he'll protect his genitals first, i know its my first instinct. 
-losing the money on the kid outgrowing the bike: bikes depreciate kind of like cars, nobody really wants used bikes, and you'll need to go thru hassle of buying him a new one which may cost u even more money in the future (think $500+ because his skill levels will increase) You might as well spend the $500 now and get him a bike he'll LOVE (compared to the 300-400 bikes you're eying) and make him keep it for over 2 years. 

well, if u chose the $400 route, go to your closest bike shop (this will help you later on when u need to go for countless service repairs and maintenance) and check out the Specialized Hardrock with disc brakes, or Cannondale F9, or Trek 3700. Just get the one he likes the most. I'd like to suggest the BB5 brakes over anything else in this price range, they're much better than tektros or v-brakes.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

louis, you've been riding for a month or so, how many too large bikes could you possibly have ridden? slow down dude, you've never been there.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

One Pivot said:


> louis, you've been riding for a month or so, how many too large bikes could you possibly have ridden? slow down dude, you've never been there.


been riding for over a month, and i've ridden a 20" M300 cannondale rigid from 1998, and another 19" Cannondale F5 2010, and a 19" Rockhopper SL Expert.

3's enough to tell you that it was "rideable" i can reach the pedals and the handlebar. i'm 5'6 and if i were to grow to 6 foot or more within a year or two i'd def jump on a large


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## BillO (Oct 1, 2009)

I think it's already been mentioned, but you should check out the Specialized Hardrock.

I wanted to get my 11 year old a bike for Christmas and looked at a lot of bikes on Craig's list and ebay. I figured I could get a bike with better components if I bought used, but I didn't want to risk having something go wrong soon after he got it and not having the support of an lbs. I was looking for a 15" bike ( my 11 year old is pretty big too) so I figured a kid in his early teens was the rider and that the bikes all have been worked pretty hard, no matter what the ad said.
I ended up buying a "new" '09 Hardrock for $300, which was about the same price as the higher end, but used (a few years old) bikes I saw. I'll at least know that everything on it works, free service from the bike shop, etc. and it will be nice and shiny on Christmas morning.

It's a tough decision. Good luck.

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=38434&menuItemId=0

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc...S&clientLng= -77.4816693&clientLat=38.7599863


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Fit is very, very important, but I think people are getting a little bit more worked up about frame size than really makes sense.

If it were possible to figure out an ideal top tube length for a rider, chances are that no bikes would match it. There'd be one above and one below, though. So for most people, there are two sizes that work pretty well. I'm comfortable on road bikes from a 50cm to a 55cm size. When I bought my Hardrock, I tried it in both the 19" size and the 17" size that I ultimately bought. I'd have had a lot of fun on the 19" too. I've also spent a little time on my friend's 15". I can ride that too. The top tube lengths on this year's Hardrock are 570mm, 585mm, 610mm, 640mm and 660mm. Those increments aren't that big. I think that almost everyone has a two or three size range that it would take hours and miles to really distinguish from one another.

Most stems ship in sizes from 80mm to 120mm, and you can find shorter and longer stems than that if you look a little harder. That's a 40mm adjustment range - bigger than the jumps between any of the bike sizes. I think the stem that came on my bike was only 65mm, and it was quite upright. The Trek 3700 is pictured with a very high-angle stem - the 19" with the stock stem should have a very similar cockpit length to a 17" with a racier setup.

I think it would be bad to get too big a bike, but the way that most companies spec their entry-level hardtails, everything rides smaller. So if your son is comfortable on a certain size bike, he'll have the ability to make it ride bigger in future with the addition of longer stems. Frame size is important, but it's not the only factor in making a bike fit right.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2009)

> Hey folks, thanks again for the replies. To cover some of the suggestions/questions:
> 
> I don't ride and don't know hoot about bikes...thus my search for advice on this site. So, upgrading or building one is out. Ditto for knowing someone into bikes to call in a favor.
> 
> ...


Maybe start looking into a DJ, Slopestyle, or FR bike for your son. Those bikes are almost bombproof and will take a whole lot of abuse. :thumbsup: Many used ones to be had. From what you posted of your sons riding character, he would do great on one of those disciplined bikes. My 11 year old son rides on a FR bike as well as a a DJ, and hucks 10' to 15' hucks, hammers big jumps, table-tops, doubles, and so forth. Mainly he is a gravity rider and loves to huck big drops with me. He tore up his other bikes until we got him into FR and DJ bikes, but of course my FR buddies and I taught him to ride his rigs correctly instead of getting insane wild on it and having no consideration for his bike. I got to admit, it is pretty hard to bend those rigid forks on a BMX, but if your son is riding it wrong, then things like that will happen no matter what he rides. I see he may doing some form of trials or freestyle riding as well, so a FR, Slopestyle, DJ, BMX, or a Trials bike may be the answer for your son. Used or new is the way to go, but if you really want to save the coin, go used. I probably would not recommend any kind of light to XC MTB for your son though, he will have that tore up within a month. I would also recommend going with a larger size frame as well. My son rides a 15" FR frame, but can easily ride my 17" DH/FR frame.

Anyways, good luck brother!


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## Andrea138 (Mar 25, 2009)

I still say rigid singlespeed- it's cost-effective, will force him to develop a little finesse, and there aren't as many moving parts to break. You could also re-sell when he grows out of it.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

Andrea138 said:


> I still say rigid singlespeed- it's cost-effective, will force him to develop a little finesse, and there aren't as many moving parts to break. You could also re-sell when he grows out of it.


I second that. Cheap, reliable, forces you to really work out, and fairly indestructible. The two 29ers I suggested would be good, and wouldn't cost very much to have them put it together.


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## bad news (Jul 12, 2008)

The kid's into hitting stuff hard (or trying to). A rigid 29er XC bike is not what he needs.


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

double post


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

plenty of quality new bikes running in the 400 price range without disk brakes, IM pretty sure he can live without them. 
As stated there are incredible deals on craigslist, people by bikes all the time and they just sit in their garage, have friends like that, but they have em!!!
Its also smarter to buy new at a store as suggested for the quaility build and warrenty afterwards, I do not understand limiting yourself to 400, eating out at 10.00 a day ends up being roughly 300 a month, quit eating out for example. A bike shop will also correctly adjust the bike for his size. 
sizing is also different per brand although it should be close enough for him in whatever brand. 
Also 09 bikes are on closeout from stores, the factories took a beating this past year and for example I picked up my new Kona blast for 487 versus the usual 700. 
Do homework on reviews as well, the internet is free and easy and do not limit yourself to the forum.


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## StarXed (Aug 5, 2008)

Hey man,

Im in Northern VA. Here's my thoughts and Id be totally welcome to corresponding through e-mail if you wanted to talk more.

Im just thinking back to how I rode bikes back when I was 13. I ripped them apart. I remember I snapped forks, broke headtubes, bent wheels, bent handlebars. My dad bought me bikes that were decent, but not pricey. Hey...I was growing and there was no way he was going to invest in a $500+ bike. And this was a guy who had a $4500 titanium road bike. He knew bikes. And he knew that any bike he bought for a 13 year old kid was going to be left out in the rain, jumped, and all around thrashed. I had a huffy (the worst), I had a Haro which I kept til college even though it was waaaaay too small for me, and I had a schwinn BMX bike which was the most incredibly sturdy bike I ever owned. I got it when I was 12. I rode it until I was 15 until the rear hub finally froze up and the handlebars folded. Im sure that frame is still somewhere sitting on a scrap metal heap and still completely in one piece. Unfortunately...finding a steel schwinn these days in working condition is next to impossible.

Anyway, so I completely understand your situation. Here is what I would do...

1.) As someone said, look into a bike built for a little more abuse. "Dirt Jump" style bikes are great for this. Stay away from Walmart bikes. It will all end in tears and broken bones. Some bikes are a decent value (Forge), but most are absolute junk. Don't be lured by Big Name Brand bikes that appear in Walmart. Many companies have a department store line and a bike store line and people buy those Walmart bikes trusting the name. Mongoose does this. They do make a good bike...but you wont find them in Walmart.

2.) Hudson Trail Outfitters. There's one in Fairfax. Walk in there, check them out. Somehow they manage to have incredible deals on their bikes. They deal in Giant, Felt, and Scott. I bought my high end 2008 Full Suspension bike there for 50% off MSRP on clearance. Here's the caveat. The people working in the bike area probably know barely more then you do about bikes. So I would try to inform myself as much as possible before walking in there. They do not know how to fit a person to a bike and their service department is abysmal. 

3.) Craigslist in this area is loaded with deals. There is a massive biking community in NOVA and people are always offloading last season's bike once they get hooked and want to upgrade. I have gotten ahold of bikes for many of my riding friends through Craigslist. Just remember, if something looks too good to be true it most likely is. Find someone who rides and run ads past them if you want to pursue that avenue. Buying a used bike can be a great idea, but you could end up with a bike that has been so heavily used that getting it back into shape will end up costing you more then you pay for it in the first place. People don't take care of their stuff in many cases.

4.) The singlespeed idea someone pointed out is a great idea! Low maintenance. Low hastle. Low price. And if he complains about not having gears, point out that all the X-Games riders used singlespeed for all their "Totally Awesome Tricks"!

5.) Just a list of a few bikes that come to mind off the top of my head.

Diamondback Response Comp - Entry level components...bombproof frame... Its HEAVY, but I'm willing to bet that wont matter to your son.
Giant Yukon or Rincon - Entry Level components. Yukon is a little higher end and may be out of your price range, but Im willing to bet you can find one either used or last year's model on Clearance for right around what you want to pay...if not less. Lots of people love that bike. 
Specialized All-Mountain P.1 - Really solid components...really sketchy fork...Strong frame - Should be right around your budget.

Every single one of these bikes is something that can be found in a bike store in NOVA. You could go the online route, but as you said, you don't know much about bikes and you would end up having to build it up yourself or bring it to a shop and have them do it, which would just about eliminate the money you saved by not buying from the shop in the first place. Building a bike can be fun and a great learning experience, but you can't just slap one together with an adjustable wrench and a philips head screwdriver. They take specialized tools and that would be an expense you would have to deal with as well. Im not saying its a bad idea, but you should know what you would be in for with that route.

Anyway, hope this helps.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

A few thoughts. 

I sell bikes to this crowd a lot. 

Used is good if you know what to avoid, if not, avoid them 

Kids are hard on bikes, particularly when their parents buy them for them, pay to fix them for them, pay to replace busted parts on them, etc. It's simply amazing how motivating it is to tell them, I'll put in 300 bucks towards your new bike. You bust your butt mowing lawns, raking yards, helping neighbors, and you can spend whatever you earn, to buy a better than $300 bike. Or, simply tell them you'll split the cost of whatever bike they have their heart set on. It hurts, but if your kid saves 800 bucks up (in todays spend now world) for something he's passionate about, is it really so bad to match him?

SS, great idea. 

FS, bad idea. Know that any FS bike under a grand has parts equivalent to a sub $500 bike, weighs a ton, and will be sloppy soon due to cheap linkages, pivots etc rft: 

Bike a size too big? Great idea, particularly if they are going to buy it now, as winter will keep them off it for a few months of growth anyway. I up size kids all the time, assuming they, and their parents understand the concept. If a kid is scared to death cause the bikes too big? Bad idea since they'll never ride it.

Good luck, and remember, it could be a gaming system they want, biking is far better for them:thumbsup:


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

Forge available through Target. :thumbsup:


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

Malibu412 said:


> Forge available through Target. :thumbsup:


Diamond back is available through Dicks Sporting goods, doesn't mean it is worth the money. Typically the bikes that Target and Dicks Sell from good companies are lower quality versions of good Mountain bikes. There about 1 step above a walmart bike and one step below what you would find in a LBS, or at reputable online dealers like the ones already mentioned.


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## fightnut (Jul 5, 2007)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> FS, bad idea. Know that any FS bike under a grand has parts equivalent to a sub $500 bike, weighs a ton, and will be sloppy soon due to cheap linkages, pivots etc rft:


Oh please! I get so tired of reading this stuff 
I ride my "under a grand" FS on all the same trails as the people with their 3, 4, 5 thousand dollar bikes. I'm doing all the same things they are (sometimes more), and have been doing this for a couple years.
People really need to let this notion go as is just isn't true.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

I dont know about the sloppy linkage but the rest of what he wrote is accurate. He never said a bike of that price wont work, they simply compare to HT bikes that are cheaper. To date I have only seen 3 FS bikes that are worth a spending less than 1000 dollars for. Being the Sette Ace, Jamis Parker 1.0, and the Motobecane Fantom DS comp. All 3 of those still have some questionable quality parts on them. Everything else seems to use much older designs, and have less quality components than the ones I mentioned. Will they work? Yes. Will they last for years? Depends on the rider.


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## fightnut (Jul 5, 2007)

Dremer03 said:


> Everything else seems to use much older designs, and have less quality components than the ones I mentioned.


Then I suggest you become more acquainted with what's out there.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

fightnut said:


> Then I suggest you become more acquainted with what's out there.


or, you could enlighten me by posting up some examples for everyone to see.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

You have seen and ridden all of these bicycles ? You have aquired this vast body of knowledge in the whole one [1] year that you have been riding ? You know not of what you speak . This is the Beginners seeking answers forum not the Beginners giving half baked advise forum . Every time you post under the guise of someone with knowledge you do the whole MTB community a disservice .


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

AZ.MTNS said:


> You have seen and ridden all of these bicycles ? You have aquired this vast body of knowledge in the whole one [1] year that you have been riding ? You know not of what you speak . This is the Beginners seeking answers forum not the Beginners giving half baked advise forum . Every time you post under the guise of someone with knowledge you do the whole MTB community a disservice .


So me agreeing with someone who is more experienced than me makes my answer wrong in some way? I also gave my opinion and did not make any attempts to pass it off like I am so master bike mechanic. I even gave examples of the types of bikes I was talking about. If you have something to add to the topic than that proves my personal thoughts wrong than cool, but if you dont why post?


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

I posted to this topic long before you decided to interject your nonsensical b.s. into this thread . I stand by my statement that you do not know of what you speak .


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

AZ.MTNS said:


> I posted to this topic long before you decided to interject


 So do we need to get a MTBR sowing circle going so you can have some flags to stake your claim?



AZ.MTNS said:


> I stand by my statement that you do not know of what you speak .


So you have no examples or reasons for why I am wrong then, is that what you are saying?


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

fightnut said:


> People really need to let this notion go as is just isn't true.


I'm guessing you're an adult, who bought and paid for it yourself, and you most likely take care of it too. Am I wrong?

Kids are hard on stuff. The difference between a stamped, one piece chainring crank, and independently replaceable rings is helpful when bad shifting technique bends a ring. Deore level shifters instead of Alivio all in one units allow better control positioning, and a bit better functional life. Hydraulic brakes set up easier, stop better etc feel better, and have none of the cable drag associated with cheapo mechanicals. Beefier double wall wheels, SLX r der instead of a Deore, the list goes on. All those are based on a comparison between a base Jamis FS, and a comparably priced hardtail from them.

I'm not beating on your bike, I'm sure you rock it and smile, it's all good.

I do this for a living, and the little differences add up, and when there's issues, I'm the guy they come and yell at. Why would I want to help make that happen more often?


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

All one has to do is read your posts to see how many times you have been called out for being wrong . It has often been pointed out that you are probably the single worst offender , how much more do you want?


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

AZ.MTNS said:


> All one has to do is read your posts to see how many times you have been called out for being wrong . It has often been pointed out that you are probably the single worst offender , how much more do you want?


+1 for me because you still couldn't come up with a reason why I was wrong with what I stated :thumbsup:


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

Lets see here:

-advocating stealing bikes that are unattended on bike racks.
-not understanding how bikes are sized.
-you stated lots of shops set up chains so big / big breaks the derailluer, also incorrect as a common means of sizing a chain is so that you can shift into big / big without causing damage, even though it is still a bad idea.
-seat height posts..


that's just ignorance i recall recently...


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

emtnate said:


> Lets see here:
> 
> -advocating stealing bikes that are unattended on bike racks.
> -not understanding how bikes are sized.
> ...


Seat Height Posts

so how about you 2 go make a we hate everyone who has a different opinion then us club and let the rest of us get back to talking about bikes.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Dremer03 said:


> +1 for me because you still couldn't come up with a reason why I was wrong with what I stated :thumbsup:


Meh.


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

Dremer03 said:


> Seat Height Posts
> 
> so how about you 2 go make a we hate everyone who has a different opinion then us club and let the rest of us get back to talking about bikes.


You were saying that everyone has exactly one optimum seat post height. It's not just that I disagree with your statements. They're flat out wrong - there's plenty of other things I disagree with and make no comment of. Like was said, this isn't the beginners seeking well intentioned, but misguided answers forum. If it were, you'd be the king.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

emtnate said:


> You were saying that everyone has exactly one optimum seat post height. It's not just that I disagree with your statements. They're flat out wrong - there's plenty of other things I disagree with and make no comment of. Like was said, this isn't the beginners seeking well intentioned, but misguided answers forum. If it were, you'd be the king.


Then go back in to that topic and disagree with me. We got all the off topic talking that this thread can handle already.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Dremer03 said:


> Seat Height Posts
> 
> so how about you 2 go make a we hate everyone who has a different opinion then us club and let the rest of us get back to talking about bikes.


We are talking about bikes , and your inability to diseminate information that is not blatantly incorrect or just "wrong".


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

AZ.MTNS said:


> We are talking about bikes , and your inability to diseminate information that is not blatantly incorrect or just "wrong".


Actually your both doing a off topic attack on me personally, which would have ended at my last post but you feel the need to continue to bring another topic off topic which will do nothing but get it closed, and prove once again that you dont know when to quiet.


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## fightnut (Jul 5, 2007)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> I'm guessing you're an adult, who bought and paid for it yourself, and you most likely take care of it too. Am I wrong?
> 
> Kids are hard on stuff. The difference between a stamped, one piece chainring crank, and independently replaceable rings is helpful when bad shifting technique bends a ring. Deore level shifters instead of Alivio all in one units allow better control positioning, and a bit better functional life. Hydraulic brakes set up easier, stop better etc feel better, and have none of the cable drag associated with cheapo mechanicals. Beefier double wall wheels, SLX r der instead of a Deore, the list goes on.


I'm glad you posted those examples because you sorta helped to make my point. You CAN get a FS bike for under a grand with all the goodies you mentioned above (3 pc cranks, Deore components, hydro brakes, etc.).
Remember, "under a grand" can mean $999, it doesn't mean I'm talking about $250 Walmart bikes.
My bike was $750 (granted, on sale), with hydro brakes, sram x5 & sram x7 components, adjustable fork and shock, double wall rims.
Like I said, I ride with people on bikes over 3 grand, and I ride just as hard as they do (harder then some).
Now to answer your question, yes I'm an adult. Although I do sorta see your point about kids being harder on stuff (perhaps I chose the wrong thread to try to make my point).


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## rvbuilder2002 (Mar 1, 2009)

Dremer03 said:


> Diamond back is available through Dicks Sporting goods, doesn't mean it is worth the money. Typically the bikes that Target and Dicks Sell from good companies are lower quality versions of good Mountain bikes. There about 1 step above a walmart bike and one step below what you would find in a LBS, or at reputable online dealers like the ones already mentioned.


I fully respect the knowledge that you have seem to have on the subject of mountain bikes and the help you try an provide here on MTBR, but I have a feeling you have never seen a Forge Sawback (I could be wrong).
It is obvious from my profile I have not been here on MTBR long or posted much so you can judge my comments how ever you wish...
I do have a background in the bicycle business (though many years ago) and have gotten bake in to biking with MTB's. I also have an extensive background doing engineering and fabrication.

I looked at a lot of bikes before purchasing a Forge Sawback to use as an entry level bike for getting back into riding. I didn't want to spend a lot before knowing if this was something we wanted to seriously get involved in, but I wanted a real MTB. I have since purchased one for my wife and one for my daughter. We have ridden these bikes a lot. They have been trouble free, easy to maintain, and so far have held up very well. They weigh between 31 and 32 lbs depending on size (which from what I found in my research is very good in their price range).
I think the Sawback compares head to head with Giant Yukon (in a couple of areas it surpasses it) for $150 less.

I am the first to admit that purchasing a bike online is not for everyone but I feel strongly that it is a very good entry level bike for someone that can deal with the other issues related to buying a bike this way.

I strongly suggest that you (and anyone else) take an opportunity to look at and actually ride one before making a negative judgment just because of the way Forge has chosen to market their bikes.


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

I was hard on bikes as a kid, I went through a Huffy BMX shaped bike within the first summer I had it. After that I had a few good bikes from the bike shop, but my parents made me have a fair stake in them as well. I was still hard on them, especially as I got older than 14 or 15. 

I can't say enough good things about the LBS in my hometown, they were always willing to make a deal on closeout models, take old parts and bikes for trade, sell me take offs for cheap, and taught me how to repair my bike by myself. 

Maybe other kids with that kind of ownership will be less likely to break things. Do understand that things break even under real riding conditions, even when you take care of them. (I'm not thinking of the "just riding along" stories either)


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

rvbuilder2002 said:


> I fully respect the knowledge that you have seem to have on the subject of mountain bikes and the help you try an provide here on MTBR, but I have a feeling you have never seen a Forge Sawback (I could be wrong).
> It is obvious from my profile I have not been here on MTBR long or posted much so you can judge my comments how ever you wish...
> I do have a background in the bicycle business (though many years ago) and have gotten bake in to biking with MTB's. I also have an extensive background doing engineering and fabrication.
> 
> ...


I did not mean to put your bike down in any way. If it works and it doesnt break then obviously it is a good bike for you. I started on a very crappy bike, that cost me next to nothing. Like you suggested perhaps I should go check out the the Sawback at Target to give it a once over and see how it compares to other bikes in its price range, but from what you describe it seems like it might not be needed.


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> ...It's simply amazing how motivating it is to tell them, I'll put in 300 bucks towards your new bike. You bust your butt mowing lawns, raking yards, helping neighbors, and you can spend whatever you earn, to buy a better than $300 bike. Or, simply tell them you'll split the cost of whatever bike they have their heart set on. It hurts, but if your kid saves 800 bucks up (in todays spend now world) for something he's passionate about, is it really so bad to match him?
> 
> ...


This.... ^^^

your son already knows the style of bike he wants...you don't.

...I'd hand him $400 for a bike on X-Mas....then go shopping....he'll let ya know what he's looking for...and if it's more expensive there's always chores to save up during the rainy season....or you may find a deal 

Personally I would think it was cool if my Dad let me pick my own rig instead if _his _idea of what i should ride.....

PS - as stated earlier....helmet, gloves, shoes, repair kits, etc.... need to be factored in the price


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## rvbuilder2002 (Mar 1, 2009)

Dremer03 said:


> Like you suggested perhaps I should go check out the the Sawback at Target to give it a once over and see how it compares to other bikes in its price range, but from what you describe it seems like it might not be needed.


That is the biggest problem with buying a Sawback (or any other bike you buy on line.

You can't go to target to look at the bike....they don't have them.
All of the bikes sold at the walk in retail store are elcheapo bikes.
I don't think a target store could sell a $400 bike, but Target .com does

The Forge bikes are only sold online through Target.com

You can check out the specs of the sawback on the Forge web site here http://www.forgebikes.com/saw5red.asp


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

Rule #1 NEVER BUY A BIKE WITHOUT TEST RIDING IT FIRST


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## rvbuilder2002 (Mar 1, 2009)

louisssss said:


> Rule #1 NEVER BUY A BIKE WITHOUT TEST RIDING IT FIRST


Rule # 1.5 ...unless you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

louisssss said:


> Rule #1 NEVER BUY A BIKE WITHOUT TEST RIDING IT FIRST


That my number 2 rules, to each his own.:thumbsup:


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

rvbuilder2002 said:


> That is the biggest problem with buying a Sawback (or any other bike you buy on line.
> 
> You can't go to target to look at the bike....they don't have them.
> All of the bikes sold at the walk in retail store are elcheapo bikes.
> ...


If that is the exact spec bike target sells, then I am impressed by the price they sell it for. It matches bikes that are a lot more than 400 dollars. Not so impressed by the knock off Gary fisher Paint job, but I am not to fond of it to start with.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

rvbuilder2002 said:


> Rule # 1.5 ...unless you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked.


That's official.


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## micycle mike (Dec 9, 2009)

CHUM said:


> This.... ^^^
> 
> your son already knows the style of bike he wants...you don't.
> 
> ...


great idea

i remember back in 1995ish i really wanted a new bmx bike. my old one got stolen (had it locked up, came out and my tire was flat. as i was walking home the guy that let out my air jumped me and took off with my bike)

my old bike was a gt performer and my dad (was really into bikes) liked the quality of the bike and how it held up to me throwing myself and the bike off stairs.

i told my dad a million times i wanted the mongoose DMC bike. woke up christmas morning and what did i see? a 1995 gt pro freestyle tour team bike.
every time i rode my bike it pissed me off that my dad didn't get the one i wanted.
don't get me wrong, i was extremely grateful that i got a bike and even more grateful it wasn't a cheepo bike from kmart or something like my friends rode, but damn i didn't want that bike. it was so heavy compared to the DMC bike. either way i rode the hell out of that bike and still have the frame/fork in my storage. maybe i'll put it all back together and sell it on ebay. they seem to be worth money right now.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

Here's an example of being misinformed. Both posts from the same thread.



Dremer03 said:


> Typically the bikes that Target and Dicks Sell from good companies are lower quality versions of good Mountain bikes. There about 1 step above a walmart bike and one step below what you would find in a LBS, or at reputable online dealers like the ones already mentioned.





Dremer03 said:


> If that is the exact spec bike target sells, then I am impressed by the price they sell it for. It matches bikes that are a lot more than 400 dollars. Not so impressed by the knock off Gary fisher Paint job, but I am not to fond of it to start with.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

I dont know about giving a 13 year old 400 dollars but another idea might be surprising him the day before Christmas by stopping at the store and letting him pick it out and get it fitted, but do the parent thing and not let him actually have it until Christmas morning,


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## semperfi658 (Oct 29, 2008)

bikes direct!!

just an EXAMPLE:http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/400ds.htm


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

semperfi658 said:


> bikes direct!!
> 
> just an EXAMPLE:http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/400ds.htm


Example of what?


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

rvbuilder2002 said:


> Rule # 1.5 ...unless you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked.


unless u have to waste your time taking it back apart and/or paying for shipping of a huge bicycle box back to the target where ever is on the other side of the country, think ~$40 (or maybe more) That would utterly suck having to pay just to try on a bike that doesn't fit you as well as one thats from the bike shop, or a bike that doesn't look (to you) like it did in the pictures, or a lemon that you can't seem to get going right. How much is your time worth to you.

Or you can get it 100% right the first time and get it professionally fitted at the bike shop and not waste any money with returns or service that u get for free, or mis-fits.


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

Dremer03 said:


> That my number 2 rules, to each his own.:thumbsup:


Any shops sell the Sette frames? Or is someone taking their best guess ordering from pricepoint?



louisssss said:


> Rule #1 NEVER BUY A BIKE WITHOUT TEST RIDING IT FIRST


General rule for a beginner, I'll agree with 100%. There comes a point when I rider knows what to look for and what dimensions fit them. Before ordering my Cross Check and having it built, I poured over the geometry sheet with the guy at the shop, found a bike that he had in stock with very similar specs, then ordered the bike. Once it arrived there was very little tweaking to get the perfect fit.

The same thing applies with frames purchased from price point or jenson, or any boutique frames that are hard to find stocked, much less built up.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

emtnate said:


> Any shops sell the Sette frames? Or is someone taking their best guess ordering from pricepoint?


Currently the only place that sells Sette is PP, but soon there will be shops around the US selling Sette, from what they tell me. Yes sizing a Sette is basically making a very educated guess on what size frame you need, using there sizing charts.


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## rvbuilder2002 (Mar 1, 2009)

louisssss said:


> unless u have to waste your time taking it back apart and/or paying for shipping of a huge bicycle box back to the target where ever is on the other side of the country, think ~$40 (or maybe more)


Like I said it is not for everyone...but how much time is $150 worth to you?
Anyone that was capable of putting the bike together in the first place should be able to disassemble and repack it in 15 - 20 minutes as long as they saved the original packing (always a good idea). There is not much assembly required in the first place (bars, seat, peddles, front wheel bought covers it). As for the shipping...there are posts in these forums by people who sent back a sawback to target.com with target paying the shipping.



louisssss said:


> Or you can get it 100% right the first time and get it professionally fitted at the bike shop and not waste any money with returns or service that u get for free, or mis-fits.


I know of people that bought bikes from a LBS that were not fit properly...maybe inexperienced sales person...maybe an over stock that they needed to get rid of...don't know.
Point is, there is no sure thing even using a bike shop, but, I said it before...it is a good way to go for someone that doesn't have any idea how to choose a bike that will fit them properly.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

MiniTrail said:


> even he should agree with that but he won't, just how he is
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=566177


What does that shitty bike shop have anything to do with this thread?
stop trolling and going off topic


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

rvbuilder2002 said:


> Like I said it is not for everyone...but how much time is $150 worth to you?


$150? To have it right, or to have a place I can quickly drive to in order to complain and have things handled? Worth its weight in gold, frankly. I mean, dealing with shipping and all is a blast, but it's nice to drive a couple of minutes to the LBS and have my situation handled.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

nachomc said:


> $150? To have it right, or to have a place I can quickly drive to in order to complain and have things handled? Worth its weight in gold, frankly. I mean, dealing with shipping and all is a blast, but it's nice to drive a couple of minutes to the LBS and have my situation handled.


See thats where people differ to some people its a waist of time to have to get in a car and drive to a LBS to complain about a bike when for some of us its as easy as picking up the phone. And who is to say they wont send a return label to send a frame or even a whole bike that needs to be warranty repaired. I have never done it and I dont know any one who has, but you might find most company's especially big company's are more than willing to take the shipping hit to keep a customer happy. At a LBS you might get a loner bike, but you might not and you could be with out your bike just as long as a bike sent out to be fixed.


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## semperfi658 (Oct 29, 2008)

Dremer03 said:


> Example of what?


FS bike from bikesdirect for around $400


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

semperfi658 said:


> FS bike from bikesdirect for around $400


Yeah, dude, that frame design and coil shock from the 90s is HAWT


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Dremer03 said:


> See thats where people differ to some people its a waist of time to have to get in a car and drive to a LBS to complain about a bike when for some of us its as easy as picking up the phone. And who is to say they wont send a return label to send a frame or even a whole bike that needs to be warranty repaired. I have never done it and I dont know any one who has, but you might find most company's especially big company's are more than willing to take the shipping hit to keep a customer happy. At a LBS you might get a loner bike, but you might not and you could be with out your bike just as long as a bike sent out to be fixed.


If I buy a bike at an LBS, I get a free fit, including swapping parts such as the stem, free of charge, to make sure the bike fits me. If we can't get position and comfort correct in the bike store, then we know the bike is the wrong size and we ... pull a different size off of the rack. No phone calls or BS and waiting around. If my online bike doesn't fit right, I have to call the company, get them to RMA the bike, I have to pack the bike, ship it to the company, wait for the company to process my return and then ship the bike back. That sucks.

At the LBS, I'm in and out, riding my bike that fits me and I'm happy with that afternoon. In fact, when I bought my Epic, I called ahead, told the LBS what I was looking for, asked them to have a Rush, Prophet, Epic and Stumpjumper in stock in size L and XL, then went in about two days later when all the bikes were in stock and rode every one of them to find what I liked. Can't do that on the internet. And if the shop is a good one, after purchase I get the first adjustment free, and since I'm a likable guy with a thing for giving beer to bike shop mechanics, I get discounts on parts and service if I need it, and when a job is too much for me I usually get helped out immediately. At least that's been my experience over the past four years.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

semperfi658 said:


> FS bike from bikesdirect for around $400


I know what it is, just dont know why you posted it. Its a very old design, yes it does work, yes you can ride it on the trail, yes it will probably last for years if someone bought one. Does it even come close to comparing to the deigns of bikes that are only a few hundred more? no. Would it be worth purchasing instead of a comparable Hard Tail or saving another 400 and buying a much nicer bike? _yes._*no*

wait I meant to type *no* on that last part.


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

nachomc said:


> If I buy a bike at an LBS, I get a free fit, including swapping parts such as the stem, free of charge, to make sure the bike fits me. If we can't get position and comfort correct in the bike store, then we know the bike is the wrong size and we ... pull a different size off of the rack. No phone calls or BS and waiting around. If my online bike doesn't fit right, I have to call the company, get them to RMA the bike, I have to pack the bike, ship it to the company, wait for the company to process my return and then ship the bike back. That sucks.
> 
> At the LBS, I'm in and out, riding my bike that fits me and I'm happy with that afternoon. In fact, when I bought my Epic, I called ahead, told the LBS what I was looking for, asked them to have a Rush, Prophet, Epic and Stumpjumper in stock in size L and XL, then went in about two days later when all the bikes were in stock and rode every one of them to find what I liked. Can't do that on the internet. And if the shop is a good one, after purchase I get the first adjustment free, and since I'm a likable guy with a thing for giving beer to bike shop mechanics, I get discounts on parts and service if I need it, and when a job is too much for me I usually get helped out immediately. At least that's been my experience over the past four years.


There is something to be said about building something with your own hands, or saving well over 150 dollars. Did you know that a Ace costs over 1100 dollars less than the comparable Trek Fuel EX 7? Thats savings I can take to the bank, or even roll around in if I got small enough bills :thumbsup:


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Dremer03 said:


> There is something to be said about building something with your own hands, or saving well over 150 dollars. Did you know that a Ace costs over 1100 dollars less than the comparable Trek Fuel EX 7? Thats savings I can take to the bank, or even roll around in if I got small enough bills :thumbsup:


BRB, putting an XT kit on a Huffy so I have a race bike and can say I saved thousands!


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

nachomc said:


> BRB, putting an XT kit on a Huffy so I have a race bike and can say I saved thousands!


poor attempt at mocking me?


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## micycle mike (Dec 9, 2009)

Dremer03 said:


> poor attempt at mocking me?


i lol'd


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

nachomc said:


> BRB, putting an XT kit on a Huffy so I have a race bike and can say I saved thousands!


Bwaaahaaaahaaaaa. :thumbsup:


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## ThePinkBarron (Aug 28, 2008)

nachomc said:


> BRB, putting an XT kit on a Huffy so I have a race bike and can say I saved thousands!


If you think that a huffy is comparable to an Ace you are just a very angry little person. The Sette lineup is solid and bargain priced, they make a good product and if you have not ridden one you cannot speak against it. Period.

That being said, do I think its the best option for the OP? not at all. But for someone with some bike know how, why not?


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

ThePinkBarron said:


> If you think that a huffy is comparable to an Ace you are just a very angry little person. The Sette lineup is solid and bargain priced, they make a good product and if you have not ridden one you cannot speak against it. Period.


Thanks for saying that, if I did they would just mock me again and imply I am biased. When I am biased towards one thing only, saving some money.

If you can save money but not sacrifice function then why not. If the person who started this topic doesnt feel safe buying a bike online and finds a better option at a store then he should go for it. But if he is comfortable making a online bike purchase then I say buy it before the prices go up after the holiday sales.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

I like my Huffy :thumbsup:


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## Lambdamaster (Nov 5, 2008)

ThePinkBarron said:


> If you think that a huffy is comparable to an Ace you are just a very angry little person. The Sette lineup is solid and bargain priced, they make a good product and if you have not ridden one you cannot speak against it. Period.
> 
> That being said, do I think its the best option for the OP? not at all. But for someone with some bike know how, why not?


his point obviously was not to imply that settes are the same quality as huffys (though close, I've built three of the frames and ridden all three of them). The argument is that just because two frames have similar specifications does not mean they are nearly the same in quality and performance.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Lambdamaster said:


> his point obviously was not to imply that settes are the same quality as huffys (though close, I've built three of the frames and ridden all three of them). The argument is that just because two frames have similar specifications does not mean they are nearly the same in quality and performance.


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## derailin_palin (Nov 17, 2008)

As usual I'm late to the flamewar, but I definitely agree on the used bike. For the money of a crappy new bike, you can get a really nice used bike, and I mean seriously awesome. Like $1200 bike for $300 awesome. Keep a lookout on ebay/craigslist.


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## Drakken_11 (Dec 21, 2009)

Not to be rude, but maybe a gym membership and nutritionist might be more in order. Hell, I'm 33yrs old 5'9" and 185. He needs to be playing Football for the Raiders not bouncing down some trail in the woods. He might get seriously hurt one day. If you notice, most Mtn Bikers are not big guys. Maybe you could enlist him in boxing lessons. I'm sure he would love beating the ever-loving-**** out of someone in the ring. I know most 13yr olds would. My dad was a boxer. It will teach him some life lessons (respect, sense of self, pride, etc) and self defence.
Keep in Mind that he will most likely outgrow whatever bike you get him now. As long as he doesn't wrap it around a tree first.
Good Luck


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## Drakken_11 (Dec 21, 2009)

Not to be rude, but maybe a gym membership and nutritionist might be more in order. Hell, I'm 33yrs old 5'9" and 185. He needs to be playing Football for the Raiders not bouncing down some trail in the woods. He might get seriously hurt one day. If you notice, most Mtn Bikers are not big guys. Maybe you could enlist him in boxing lessons. I'm sure he would love beating the ever-loving-**** out of someone in the ring. I know most 13yr olds would. My dad was a boxer. It will teach him some life lessons (respect, sense of self, pride, etc) and self defence.
Keep in Mind that he will most likely outgrow whatever bike you get him now. As long as he doesn't wrap it around a tree first.
Good Luck


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

^are you actually saying his kid is to fat to ride a Mountain Bike? I think you might find that there are tons of guys on here that dont exactly fit into the Mountain Biker Mold, me being one of them (5' 11" 240 Pounds). If he wants to get healthy, he should simply watch what he eats and ride the heck out of his bike.


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## ThePinkBarron (Aug 28, 2008)

Drakken_11 said:


> Not to be rude, but maybe a gym membership and nutritionist might be more in order. Hell, I'm 33yrs old 5'9" and 185. He needs to be playing Football for the Raiders not bouncing down some trail in the woods. He might get seriously hurt one day. If you notice, most Mtn Bikers are not big guys. Maybe you could enlist him in boxing lessons. I'm sure he would love beating the ever-loving-**** out of someone in the ring. I know most 13yr olds would. My dad was a boxer. It will teach him some life lessons (respect, sense of self, pride, etc) and self defence.
> Keep in Mind that he will most likely outgrow whatever bike you get him now. As long as he doesn't wrap it around a tree first.
> Good Luck


For starters, read around the forums before offering horrible advice. There are guys here who weigh close to 300 lbs who ride harder than I do at 110lbs.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

..........


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## BillO (Oct 1, 2009)

Anyone notice that the OP has not been on in 2 weeks. I wonder why that is?

I wonder what he ended up buying.


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## Drakken_11 (Dec 21, 2009)

No, I'm not saying he's fat! It's just he is 13 and still growing. I'm glad he's into biking and not tweeting and staring at a Comp screen all day. Good For Him. I just think in the future he might have a bit of a hard time getting up the mountain.
I graduated High School at 135lbs and I was 18. Think about how big this kid is gonna get if he is 185lb 5'8" @ 13.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

BillO said:


> Anyone notice that the OP has not been on in 2 weeks. I wonder why that is?
> 
> I wonder what he ended up buying.


hes trying to fix his dept store bike


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## Dremer03 (Jun 19, 2009)

Drakken_11 said:


> No, I'm not saying he's fat! It's just he is 13 and still growing. I'm glad he's into biking and not tweeting and staring at a Comp screen all day. Good For Him. I just think in the future he might have a bit of a hard time getting up the mountain.
> I graduated High School at 135lbs and I was 18. Think about how big this kid is gonna get if he is 185lb 5'8" @ 13.


Perhaps if he starts really biking now he wont only be healthier now but remain healthy in the future.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2009)

BillO said:


> Anyone notice that the OP has not been on in 2 weeks. I wonder why that is?
> 
> I wonder what he ended up buying.


BUMP!

WOW!!! Its turning into a child's romper room in here! People or should I say adults acting just like little children. Just let it freaking go, because none of you are even helping the OP in anyway or manner.


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## micycle mike (Dec 9, 2009)

i guess since i'm 5'10" and 240 lbs i should sell my bike and start boxing.
i graduated high school 12 years ago @ 170 lbs. since then i stopped surfing and riding bikes. my weight jumped to 260lbs. about 4 months ago i started surfing again and bought myself a mtn bike. i'm down 20 lbs and for xmas my dad is giving me his old road bike. i'm gonna buy a trainer and ride the road bike when our trails are too wet.

i think it's funny that you back pedal and don't even realize what you said



> Not to be rude, but maybe a gym membership and nutritionist might be more in order





> I'm not saying he's fat!


well then why would he need a gym membership and a nutritionist?

there is only one sport i can't do because i got fat.
rockclimbing, just too heavy for that right now. when i drop another 20 lbs i'm gonna start rock climbing again.


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## Drakken_11 (Dec 21, 2009)

Well good for you. With all sincerity. Keep it up, and Good luck.
I guess my attempt at humor came across with a bit of a sting. But when was the last time you saw 180lb 13yr old that wasn't fat????
My point; as conveluted as it ended up being, was that obviously the kid is very rough on his bikes and maybe the father should try to find another means of entertainment for him. After all we know how expensive bikes can be.


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## micycle mike (Dec 9, 2009)

just so you know, i think the kid needs to watch what he eats and work out more.
not just by riding the **** out of a cheap mtn bike.
boxing or mma would be great for him. as well as a gym membership.

i think the main problem with your post (for me anyway) was saying that most mtn bikers aren't big guys.
this forum has a whole section just for big guys.


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## Drakken_11 (Dec 21, 2009)

Your absolutely right! I did not take into consideration how diverse this Forums members might be. I was just speaking of the guys you see in MTN Biking Mags and the ones I see in my local bike shops. I DID NOT mean to imply that you had to be thin and in shape to be a good Mountain Biker.


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