# Slow poke pace- Need to speed up!



## FrdSHOx3 (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm tired of being the rider at the back of the pack everyone is always waiting for... Anyone have any tips for improving my speed and climbing better?

I'm a fairly good rider technically, not a beginner but just slooooooow. Forget it if there's any type of incline, it's almost like I get sucked into a blackhole of slowness. (I work out often but am still on the bigger side of things and do realize my weight probably is the biggest factor.)


----------



## Firecrackerktm (Jul 16, 2009)

Is it just climbing where you slow down? If so I will wait for some magic answers myself 

Clips helped me a little. I can tell a difference there. Also, technique has something to do with it too--a friend described it to me as "make circles with your feet instead of pushing down" and while it sounds kind of "duh," I realized that's what I was doing, is just pushing straight down on the pedals. Someone else told me to flex the butt cheek opposite to the foot that is currently pushing down, but I was never able to do that--for whatever reason it seemed nearly impossible and I nearly crashed trying to concentrate too hard on my butt instead of the trail!

Anyway I hope there are some more good pointers. I am working to build conditioning myself, but if there are other things I can do to improve that would be great. I have a little asthma and a tummy to boot, I am invariably the largest rider on any given group ride


----------



## Nerdgirl (Mar 13, 2007)

It so hard without having seen you ride or understanding how long the climbs are that you face. One thing that took me a while to figure out and made a big difference was in figuring out how to approach hills. A lot of riders gear WAY down before the start of a hill and lose any momentum they might have had. Then, the hill takes a lot of effort and time. Instead, when you see a hill coming, speed up and attack it. Use your speed and momentum to carry you up it (this doesn't, of course, work for hour long grinds). Try a few climbs where you stick in your middle ring and give 'er! Promise yourself not to shift. If you have to get off and walk, that's fine; you're just trying to train your body to approach the challenge differently. If you're on a hardtail, stand up and use your upper body to swing the bike back and forth, using your body weight (not just your quads) to keep the pedals turning. Hope that helps.


----------



## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

FrdSHOx3 said:


> I'm tired of being the rider at the back of the pack everyone is always waiting for... Anyone have any tips for improving my speed and climbing better?
> 
> I'm a fairly good rider technically, not a beginner but just slooooooow. Forget it if there's any type of incline, it's almost like I get sucked into a blackhole of slowness. (I work out often but am still on the bigger side of things and do realize my weight probably is the biggest factor.)


You are the anchor.....simplest way to solve the problem.....find another anchor..

Someone that is slower than you, invite them on the rides.

Improves your self esteem and that makes you a lot faster.


----------



## miss rides a lot (Jul 23, 2008)

For a long time I was the slowest rider (uphill and down). Ride lots I think is my biggest suggestion. I decided I wanted to try to finish a few local endurance events so started riding more often, and doing long steady climbs. I did lose some weight as well (riding a lot and paying a little more attention to nutrition made a big difference). 

I finally got to the point where I could climb hour long hills without stopping numerous times, so keeping moving helps. Just keep riding and as long as you keep getting ride invites, don't worry too much


----------



## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Well, I feel pretty pokey as well, but over the years I have made a few observations of things that help:

If you live somewhere with winter weather, try to get a jump on your fellow riders by starting riding early in the season (on road), or even commute year-round to stay in shape.
I was fastest on a MTB the year I rode a road bike the most miles on the toughest hills I could find. Even once/wk on gradually longer/tougher rides will help. That year I rode a 25 mi MTB ride in the fall, and while some started faster, halfway through I wondered why they were dropping like flies.
When I go on rides with the young whippersnappers, I am content to let them get up the hills first, but I can usually surprise them by keeping up or going faster on the downhills, even on an old hardtail. I'm sure I could go down faster on a full suspension, but I feel like climbing is more of a challenge for me, so I've kept it lighter and simpler.


----------



## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

It is good that you are willing to speak frankly. It is really hard to dance around sensitive subjects like weight, fitness and psychology and still get a helpful answer.

Get a training plan & stick to it > develop muscle and aerobic capacity > burn fat more efficiently > climb faster


1. weight - The more you carry, the slower you will go up hills. Non functional weight (fat stores) slows you down more than functional weight (muscles). This isn't a subjective concept, no matter how much I wish it was in the winter when all I do is drink beer and snowboard. So, yes, losing weight will help you to climb better. As an athlete, losing weight using an intelligent approach to nutrition and portions instead of a fad diet will make it stick. Change habits for a lifetime, not menus for a month. Typically, it requires the help of a professional to do this in a meaningful, life-changing way. 

2. strength - the stronger you are, the faster you will go up hills. A lot of cyclists, and women in particular, neglect this part of health. Light and weak is not as fast as light and strong. In particular, core strength and upper body strength have a huge effect on climbing and are the most likely to be neglected. Added bonus, active muscles burn more calories - getting stronger helps you to lose non-functional weight and to better your strength to weight ratio. 

3. Aerobic fitness - you can't fake this. If you ride more, you develop more aerobic fitness (the ability for your body to efficiently burn fuel) and can do harder efforts for longer periods. If you ride more with a training schedule from a reputable coach, you can do this in an easily predictable manner. There are no surprises here. Training = faster, easier. A training plan can be low volume, particularly for non-racing beginners - the key is consistency.

4. psychological fitness. A lot of what is accomplished in a training schedule is incremental improvement of your ability to do something physically hard without collapsing mentally. Otherwise known as HTFU, or Rule 5. Physical training is also mental training, and incremental, trackable efforts go a long way toward your ability to suffer and enjoy it. The fellow at the front of the pack hurts just as much as you do, he/she just just has a better perspective on it. 

ADDED BONUS: fit people have an advantage in technical terrain, too. if you aren't maxed out when you get to an obstacle, you have a much better chance of successfully negotiating it. 

This can all be overwhelming, but is easy to narrow down. Find a training group or club with a real coach or leader who understands and cares about your goals (this does not have to be a competitive group). Do some basic core and arm work. Learn some new things about nutrition and start making incremental changes. Could be the best summer of your life!

Cheers,
C


----------



## annamagpie (Jun 5, 2009)

This is great stuff. Thanks! I'm going to print it out and hang it on my door. AND get on the trainer I've been avoiding so much!


----------



## FrdSHOx3 (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks for the responses and great tips!

I find it fustrating that I'm am absolutely not a couch potatoe and train hard nornally and have bumped it up in the last few weeks to get in shape for more riding. We rode for 3-4 hours mostly climbing and by the end I had the energy but my legs just wouldn't go! Everyone else looked like they weren't even trying! 

I do a combo of strength training/cardio 3 days a week- bootcamp type and 2 days of intense spinning (not to be confused with health club type spinning), wear a heartrate monitor and track my calorie burn/work out intensity. Been doing this for the last several years, its a way of life for me to be in shape and eat well. Last couple of weeks I bumped up my pull-up quantities, leg lunges etc. Its just not enough somehow and doesnt compare to saddle time, I guess.

Someone suggested more hill climbing, pretty much find one and ride it as much as you can. I have a 4 mile hill near work that I plan on riding during lunch to start with. I tried clips before and had a hard time with them (Crank Bros egg beater type) and couldn't get out of them reliably, maybe I'll try an SPD type this time with more of a flat soled shoe (five ten hell cat type).


----------



## Firecrackerktm (Jul 16, 2009)

I haven't tried eggbeaters. My SPD ones are adjusted pretty loose, easy to get out of. Not that I haven't had some sketchy moments and one crash 

I also have the opposite problem as you. I have a bit of asthma, so even when I was riding a LOT, and could feel my legs getting stronger, I just never could catch my breath, even with an inhaler.


----------



## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

FrdShox3, do you think you are eating enough during the ride? 3-4 hours with lots of climbing is definitely bonk territory. Try a Gu or something at least every hour and see if it makes a difference.

I like Time ATAC pedals. Unlike Shimanos (at least the ones I had), they get easier to unclip as the cleat wears, not harder. For full disclosure, I will say that after years and years in Times I switched to flats last year after a crash that sprained my ankle. But I don't blame the pedals. I'm having fun with the flats and 5.10s, so I'm not sure if will go back to clipless this trail season.

The hill near work sounds good too. Time how long it takes and see if you can improve on it over time, but don't beat yourself up if you're slower on a hot day, don't feel great, etc.


----------



## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

FrdSHOx3 said:


> I find it fustrating that I'm am absolutely not a couch potatoe and train hard nornally and have bumped it up in the last few weeks to get in shape for more riding.


Heh. Every time I post blunt advice about training, the original poster disagrees and someone else thanks me for the info... never fails.

We all have different perspectives on what slow is and what constitutes a healthy lifestyle. Just because you are already active doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement. I'm slower than I like right now. I know how to change it, so I am not worried.

My descriptions above are definitely targeted at a newer athlete, but they contain info that works at any level, particularly the advice about a coach and nutrition education. Outside advice can be very eye-opening. If your training methods aren't working, find a nice reputable program that provides another perspective (ideally, one that supports the basic ideas of periodization, which have been well tested for several decades), and try it for 12 weeks. What you learn, you can then incorporate into your long term habits, whether you are a couch potato or a Cat 1.

You may have just reached the point where a home-made training theory no longer produces the results you are looking for. Riding fast actually does very little to increase your endurance, and without an endurance improvement, you can't increase overall average ride speeds - if you are redlining up hills, the results will be very limited without a prior increase in volume.

It is pretty fun watching someone use a real schedule for the first time. I have a young racer who was by most standards, already very, very fast. He started training with a schedule this winter and is now, as a cat 4, out climbing cat 1s. The results are pretty stunning, and I have seen it work dozens of times for many athletes.

FWIW, clipless pedals are pretty much a must if you are riding with other people on clipless who also value speed. It takes a bit of practice to get good at clipless in technical terrain, but a set of knee armor will help to eliminate tip-over injuries while you are working on the skills. I switch back and forth depending upon terrain, companions and goals for the day.

Cheers,
C


----------



## zgjp82 (Jan 24, 2011)

chuky said:


> It is good that you are willing to speak frankly. It is really hard to dance around sensitive subjects like weight, fitness and psychology and still get a helpful answer.
> 
> Get a training plan & stick to it > develop muscle and aerobic capacity > burn fat more efficiently > climb faster
> 
> ...


This is some of the best advice I have ever seen written on this forum for guys (me) and girls. I recently started to take along look at myself and the biggest thing I have discovered is that the only thing that gets in my way is myself:madman: and I need to take your advice and apply it to that philosophy thank you for posting this.


----------



## FrdSHOx3 (Sep 10, 2009)

chuky said:


> Heh. Every time I post blunt advice about training, the original poster disagrees and someone else thanks me for the info... never fails.


Hmm I certainly don't disagree with anything you have posted and thank you for the valuable input. I definitely could use a fresh perspective on my health style. This pretty much sums it up "Get a training plan & stick to it > develop muscle and aerobic capacity > burn fat more efficiently > climb faster".

Getting the correct training plan and sticking to it is the problem.

So have the majority of you been coached by a professional cyclist type trainer? I certainly can't afford a personal trainer so I think I'm stuck in a group/class type atmosphere, do you think a "crossfit" might be more suiteable?

I can't say I've ever mentioned/discussed my goals to my current trainer either... Over the years I feel kinda like it would be rude to switch to a different trainer/program. Loyalty is funny but I guess its like a bad hairstylist; at some point the bond needs to be broken lol.


----------



## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

A group can be better than a personal trainer - you learn from other students, too. Just as MTB skills may advance faster in a clinic atmosphere...

There are a lot of different backgrounds on this board. Some of us have significant racing/coaching experience, others are self-taught, etc. There are a lot of great resources out there. Lynda W, a member of this board, offers smart plans at many levels. This is her basic non-racer plan.

http://lwcoaching.com/?page_id=89


----------



## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

chuky said:


> A group can be better than a personal trainer - you learn from other students, too. Just as MTB skills may advance faster in a clinic atmosphere...
> 
> There are a lot of different backgrounds on this board. Some of us have significant racing/coaching experience, others are self-taught, etc. There are a lot of great resources out there. Lynda W, a member of this board, offers smart plans at many levels. This is her basic non-racer plan.
> 
> http://lwcoaching.com/?page_id=89


I was going to suggest this... you beat me to it.


----------



## H2oChick (Dec 14, 2006)

I like this thread and would like to hear back what tips you tried and which ones worked out. Lots of good advice but don't try it all at once!
I'm not a fast climber but I have improved over the last couple of years. On my short, after work training rides I would set a goal to try to beat my "lap time" (or point-to-point time). Even if it was 30 seconds I knew I was improving. Stop relying on your granny gear; you would be surprised at how often you are "spoiled" using it.


----------



## miatagal96 (Jul 5, 2005)

Riding with people who are faster than you are is a great way to get faster.

Singlespeeding really helped me increase my speed. It taught me to use my momentum and carry more speed up the hills. It taught me to get out of the saddle. It helped me build muscle.

Keeping my endurance strong in the winter (base miles if you can bike; skate skiing if you get snow) really helps start the season strong.

My racer friends train on the road bike and ride a lot of hills on the road; they also show up to rides about an hour early and ride an hour longer than the rest of us.

Give yourself time to recover. I took a clinic from Georgia Gould this summer and she really stressed recovery days to allow your muscles time to heal.


----------



## ArchMarge (Oct 5, 2010)

miatagal96 said:


> Riding with people who are faster than you are is a great way to get faster.
> 
> Singlespeeding really helped me increase my speed. It taught me to use my momentum and carry more speed up the hills. It taught me to get out of the saddle. It helped me build muscle.
> 
> ...


My boyfriend has actually been encouraging me to try singlespeeding to help me work on power and speed. It's good to hear this worked for you. I want to try it to get ready for the summer season.


----------



## brg (Sep 7, 2004)

chuky said:


> It is good that you are willing to speak frankly. It is really hard to dance around sensitive subjects like weight, fitness and psychology and still get a helpful answer.
> 
> Get a training plan & stick to it > develop muscle and aerobic capacity > burn fat more efficiently > climb faster
> 
> ...


I used to be a frequent poster and reader of this forum...but I rarely get on and read or participate in this forum anymore.

It was frustrating to me to read posts of people asking how to climb faster, Chuky would give good advice and then people would disregard the advice and want to focus on the "pedaling" aspect.

It was also frustrating reading the same old questions all the time..."small bikes for small women?" or "what should I buy my girlfriend".

So while waiting for my source code library to update - I thought I'd take a peek...lo and behold there was the climbing question. 

As usual, Chucky's answer is spot on with the number #1 being weight. If you aren't lugging an extra 5, 10 or 20 lbs up the hill....you go faster uphill!

A friend of mine said it best - "you know that 8lbs i lost means the difference between keeping up or being left behind" (she was 5'2" ~138 and dropped down to 130)

I wish it wasn't true - as a 50 year old, post menopause woman - I fight like HECK to keep my weight down. I also lift heavy in the off-season and have a structured plan to work on my aerobic fitness. If you get serious about leaning up, getting strong and aerobic fitness - you WILL climb faster.

Most of the people I ride with are fast as heck and ~10 - 20 years younger than me...with paying attention to my weight and fitness - I am able to hold my own.

good luck!


----------



## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

"Hold your own".... Ha! You rock!


----------



## Firecrackerktm (Jul 16, 2009)

I don't think anybody is disregarding good advice. I am bicycling more in order to lose weight, so being told that I should lose weight in order to bicycle better ...


----------



## FrdSHOx3 (Sep 10, 2009)

As I suggested in my initial post, I'm hip to the fact my weight is the biggest issue and believe me I don't take it lightly. The posts by other members has pretty much nailed it as the biggest one thing I can do to improve.

Right now I'm focused on improved eating habits and excersize to shed a few pounds as well as build muscle to climb and ride better. 

When I have some coin on-hand I'll invest in some SPD's and shoes.


----------



## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Nice thread. Great advice chuky.

FWIW a number of years ago I thought I was a pretty good rider, but was frustrated that I couldn't race well (asthma, bonky, tired, slow) and was at a plateau. I singlespeeded and thought I was in good shape but I was stuck.....chuky was nice enough to actually explain to me that I couldn't get better just hammering every ride - she took me aside and plotted out a training regimen. I was shocked by it....easy days? recovery? keep HR down? road miles? wtf?.... but that year I had a great race at Sea otter and since then I have been building yearly. I'm still not the fastest or the best at anything, but I do enjoy riding quite a bit and doing the occasional event.

I still get dropped all the time by my riding partners, all of whom are faster than me and probably always will be, they are mutants.


----------



## Rocket Girl (Mar 10, 2011)

Have you got a road bike, too? I've been told, and my experience supports it, that you get better riding the mountain bike and faster riding the road bike. It's yet another big investment, and only adds to the N+1 bike theory, but seriously, it helped me get tons faster. Anybody else find that to be true?


----------



## Firecrackerktm (Jul 16, 2009)

Rocket Girl said:


> Have you got a road bike, too? I've been told, and my experience supports it, that you get better riding the mountain bike and faster riding the road bike. It's yet another big investment, and only adds to the N+1 bike theory, but seriously, it helped me get tons faster. Anybody else find that to be true?


I'm probably too fat to do that, too.

definitely too poor.


----------



## miss rides a lot (Jul 23, 2008)

Not saying this is true of anyone on here looking to shed pounds by riding, but from my own personal experience, when I first started out...I had no clue about health/fitness/nutrition. I rode on weekends, usually 1-1.5 hours and I'd think, well I just did a big mountain bike ride - time to refuel! Off to Chipotle we'd go and load up on a massive burrito and have a big dinner. 

Counter-productive, since I likely started eating far more than I was burning on any day that I rode.

I've learned a lot about nutrition the past 5 years, and can imagine I'll continue to learn and experiment for the next 5 and still have a long way to go.

I weighed about 35# more than I do now at my "racing" weight and I also can attest to riding and climbing much faster. But, generally gaining fitness and confidence helps as well.

IMO road riding helps because you wind up stopping less. The rides are more continuous with less regroups generally speaking, and when you pedal more continuously/steadily your body gains more aerobic fitness. No idea if this is actually true, but it's my hypothesis.


----------



## Firecrackerktm (Jul 16, 2009)

I think you're right about the road riding, and I also agree about gorging after a ride. I get so hungry!! I have gotten a lot better about limiting myself to an orange or apple or maybe a protein bar. I cave once in a while though 

I can't afford another bike though  Maybe if I get a full suspension mountain bike I will put road tires on my hardtail and ride that on the paved trails. Anything helps.


----------



## FrdSHOx3 (Sep 10, 2009)

You know the road riding thing has been mentioned to me before too. Seems reasonable.

I can't say I would'nt mind owning another bike, I guess bikes are like Labradors, cats, cars and potatoe chips, you just can't have one lol. One for freeride, one for DH, one for xc etc.... Sigh....

I had put road tires on my hardtail with intentions of riding it on the road but I mtb ride so much on my off time I never had a chance to use it. So I put the Kenda's back on it and a better fork from my FS and I plan on riding it during lunch break at the state park across the street.


----------



## Firecrackerktm (Jul 16, 2009)

Oh man if money were no option I'd have lots of bicycles, and lots of motorcycles, and ....


----------



## Rocket Girl (Mar 10, 2011)

If there's a bright spot in this whole need-one-more-bike thing, it's that a nice entry level road bike can be had for under $1000. At least it's not another $3000 investment! AND, you can typically just ride out the front door which makes it oh-so convenient.


----------



## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

That's where it starts.... I used to have an entry level road bike....

I love my full carbon Orbea roadie....


----------



## jaclynj (Jun 11, 2007)

I remember when I only had one bike too....now it's DH bike, hardtail...want a new FS for...And I stop and pick up those "free to a good home" junker bikes. I'm an addict.


----------



## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

> And I stop and pick up those "free to a good home" junker bikes.


Not if I get there first! Recent find was an old Rockhopper... Even has a u-brake!


----------



## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

screampint said:


> Not if I get there first! Recent find was an old Rockhopper... Even has a u-brake!


Nice! My first MTB was a Ritchey Outback with U-brakes _and_ biopace chainrings :thumbsup: Full rigid of course, that's all there was.


----------



## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

chuky said:


> Riding fast actually does very little to increase your endurance, and without an endurance improvement, you can't increase overall average ride speeds - if you are redlining up hills, the results will be very limited without a prior increase in volume.
> C


I really enjoyed reading through this thread and discovered wonderful advise. The point above is a good example that stands out for me. Practicing on longer rides and conserving energy rather than burning energy quickly is a better approach for building endurance, I alternate between long 3-4 hour + rides (flats, hills and tech) or sessioning DH trails. For variety, (stretch and core strength) I practice Yoga throughout the week


----------



## EJP (Apr 30, 2007)

Firecrackerktm said:


> I think you're right about the road riding, and I also agree about gorging after a ride. I get so hungry!! I have gotten a lot better about limiting myself to an orange or apple or maybe a protein bar. I cave once in a while though
> 
> I can't afford another bike though  Maybe if I get a full suspension mountain bike I will put road tires on my hardtail and ride that on the paved trails. Anything helps.


One suggestion: don't let yourself get ravenous on your rides! It's difficult to ride well when you're starving and easy to over-eat afterward. Most bars have quite a few calories, so maybe a banana or some apple slices in a ziploc during your ride would work. You do also need to refuel your muscles afterward--a cup of yogurt with a piece of fruit, half of a pb sandwich on whole wheat, etc can be great for that. Either of those combos gives you a nice mix of protein, carbs, and fiber. Plus, I find it's easier to control portions with "real" food rather than bars.


----------



## Firecrackerktm (Jul 16, 2009)

EJP said:


> One suggestion: don't let yourself get ravenous on your rides! It's difficult to ride well when you're starving and easy to over-eat afterward. Most bars have quite a few calories, so maybe a banana or some apple slices in a ziploc during your ride would work. You do also need to refuel your muscles afterward--a cup of yogurt with a piece of fruit, half of a pb sandwich on whole wheat, etc can be great for that. Either of those combos gives you a nice mix of protein, carbs, and fiber. Plus, I find it's easier to control portions with "real" food rather than bars.


No I always start with something and I pack fruit & protein bars for during and after. I don't buy the yummy snack bars, so I usually break them up into smaller pieces for smaller portions. They don't taste bad but not good enough that I want more, lol.

Not a fan of yogurt, unfortunately. I know it's good for you but I've never liked it much. Same with bananas. ew.

What I really meant was that a nice burger (not cardboard fast food burger) or giant burrito is always sooooo tempting after a ride  I try to abstain though.


----------

