# How much trail do different user groups "use"?



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I thought this was interesting, e-bikes were a lot faster than I expected (though given the limitations of the study, I'm not sure how much to trust the results). The hiker, runner, and equestrian numbers look pretty accurate to me, as does the mountain bike number. The e-bike number is pretty impressively faster though the bike in question was apparently 350W and 20mph limited, a bit quicker and more powerful than something like a LEVO but AFAIK still perfectly legal where Class 1 can be ridden.

How Much Trail Do You Use In An Hour? (A Trail User Speed Comparison) - Jimmy Mac On Two Wheels









-Walt


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

This make sense to me, at least in my somewhat limited experience riding my Stumpjumper v. my wife's Levo: "The two bikes had the largest speed variance. The mountain biker went as slow as 2.5 miles per hour on the steepest uphill pitch and up to 17.4 miles per hour on the fire road descent. The motorized bike slowed to 4.5 miles per hour on the steepest uphill pitch and reached 20.26 miles per hour on the flat/rolling section."

"The amount of trail used in one hour (above chart) would differ significantly for the mountain biker and motorized biker if the course contained only flat/rolling terrain. The mountain biker distance covered would be closer to 15 miles and the motorized biker would be approximately 19 miles."


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I would think the difference would increase the longer the time period. When I'm trail running or mountain biking, I tend to take a little break every hour or so. This past Sunday, I was on a really long steep trail and had to take a ton of breaks to get my breathing and heart rate down. But would an ebiker be as likely to take a break?


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

chazpat said:


> I would think the difference would increase the longer the time period. When I'm trail running or mountain biking, I tend to take a little break every hour or so. This past Sunday, I was on a really long steep trail and had to take a ton of breaks to get my breathing and heart rate down. But would an ebiker be as likely to take a break?


I would think so, at least with pedal assist bikes. An e-biker still has to pedal and it's still work. It's not as much work if one is going the same speed as they would on a regular bike. But it can become tiring if one trying to keep a higher pace than one normally would on a regular bike.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

AGarcia said:


> I would think so, at least with pedal assist bikes. An e-biker still has to pedal and it's still work. It's not as much work if one is going the same speed as they would on a regular bike. But it can become tiring if one trying to keep a higher pace than one normally would on a regular bike.


True, and a lot of ebikers may not have a very good fitness level.

On one of those trails I was riding up Sunday, I met a group of four younger guys going down. I came across them again later at a road crossing, they were pushing their bikes up the road (this has nothing to do with ebikes btw).


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

> Our participants were all in their mid-sixties except for our 54-year-old trail runner.


LOL. that might skew things a bit.

I've found equestrian riders to carry a higher pace than trail runners. I've encountered a few of them riding their horses at a gallop on a number of occasions. Or course it really depends on the trail though. I could probably pick a couple of loops and use strava to see what various users average.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Interesting. Confirms things.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

Well, it "confirms" that e-bikes go 4 mph faster... 4 mph, this must change everything...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

eFat said:


> Well, it "confirms" that e-bikes go 4 mph faster... 4 mph, this must change everything...


It's a start.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Already seeing groups of ebikers on my trails, with riders of all ages (youngest about 12 or so). They all seemed to be newbies though. I actually have to wait up on them. I once gave a young ebike rider, that looked to be playing around, a sign by nudging my head forward with a brow raise, to try and get him to race me on a slight upslope, but instead they just wanted to merely socialize among themselves. They were talking about typical newbie stuff, like rolling drops and jumps and how to corner.

I don't really see an extra fit person on one, since the trail itself has its own speed limits and it's not like anyone's going to be getting DH KOMs on one, without technical skills. That weight on the uphills has to slow it down too. If I push 400W on a climb aboard a 26 lb bike, someone that pushes 200W, with 250W motor helping, probably isn't going to keep up aboard a 50 lb bike. I can imagine seeing a 60 yr old on a 350W ebike on a hill would encourage me to go faster.  I often get passed on climbs whenever I'm pacing myself for endurance, so I'm not likely to be shocked when someone an ebike passes with an upright riding position. I'd be more worried that I burn myself out if I decide to try to stick to their wheel.

That all said, if I had a choice between putting thousands into a carbon fiber bike, intending to go faster due to being lightweight, and a similarly priced ebike that proved to be easier to own, being more durable, reliable, versatile, and fun, I'd be questioning why not. I'd have a normal bike around for group rides, kind of worrying about fitting an ebike on a rack and lifting it over gates, and riding it in a low assist mode to maintain pace, but the ebike could allow me to ride to trailheads from my front door, 15+ miles away, and make mountains seem less intimidating. I could then try the same without the assistance, after the experience breaks down all these mental blocks in my head.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Varaxis said:


> Already seeing groups of ebikers on my trails, with riders of all ages (youngest about 12 or so). They all seemed to be newbies though. I actually have to wait up on them. I once gave a young ebike rider, that looked to be playing around, a sign by nudging my head forward with a brow raise, to try and get him to race me on a slight upslope, but instead they just wanted to merely socialize among themselves. They were talking about typical newbie stuff, like rolling drops and jumps and how to corner.
> 
> I don't really see an extra fit person on one, since the trail itself has its own speed limits and it's not like anyone's going to be getting DH KOMs on one, without technical skills. That weight on the uphills has to slow it down too. If I push 400W on a climb aboard a 26 lb bike, someone that pushes 200W, with 250W motor helping, probably isn't going to keep up aboard a 50 lb bike. I can imagine seeing a 60 yr old on a 350W ebike on a hill would encourage me to go faster.  I often get passed on climbs whenever I'm pacing myself for endurance, so I'm not likely to be shocked when someone an ebike passes with an upright riding position. I'd be more worried that I burn myself out if I decide to try to stick to their wheel.
> 
> That all said, if I had a choice between putting thousands into a carbon fiber bike, intending to go faster due to being lightweight, and a similarly priced ebike that proved to be easier to own, being more durable, reliable, versatile, and fun, I'd be questioning why not. I'd have a normal bike around for group rides, kind of worrying about fitting an ebike on a rack and lifting it over gates, and riding it in a low assist mode to maintain pace, but the ebike could allow me to ride to trailheads from my front door, 15+ miles away, and make mountains seem less intimidating. I could then try the same without the assistance, after the experience breaks down all these mental blocks in my head.


It's called instant gratification. New riders want to be fast expert riders without putting in the effort. They don't want to become cyclists....they want to be cyclists....NOW!!!


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

mtnbikej said:


> It's called instant gratification. New riders want to be fast expert riders without putting in the effort. They don't want to become cyclists....they want to be cyclists....NOW!!!


Are you implying that there's something good or bad about that? I'm not bothered by that fact at all. If I could be a fast expert rider in a fraction of the time, why not?

If I want to be a expert ping pong player, should I not pay for a machine that serves to me, along with professional coaching, and my own ping pong table in my house, with a camera recording my technique that analyzes it? Or should I be heading to the local ping pong club regularly and play against other newbies, working myself up the ranks to play vets and pros from the very start, perhaps getting my own personal training setup later on when I become more serious? What if I did both from the start and asked the club management to accelerate my rise through the ranks in the club much faster? An ebiker covering more ground, making the climbing time shorter, could be getting more practice in on the technical gravity sections, and have equipment better suited for it, since the motor helps carry it back up the hill.

I don't think the ebikers I've seen were really wanting to associate themselves as being cyclists. Perhaps they could just be simply wanting to get themselves moving. These ebikers didn't associate with me, nor the group I was with. We treated each other are separate trail user groups, though a bit more distant than two separate mtb groups full of strangers would. We were resting at some benches at top of the hill, and I could spot them as being on ebikes from 200+ meters away climbing up the steeper side of the trail system (that we usually avoid). They were all strung out, with the fitter ones being first to make it to the hill. They rolled away while we were still chatting at top of the hill, with minimal socializing between us. We simply made comments like pointing out that the guy in back was on a less modern ebike. They might know something cyclists who haven't been on ebike don't know... I don't feel like I have the right to judge, especially without knowing any context. In this age, it's a choice to stay ignorant, and I'd rather accept all the knowledge, than to reject what I don't care to understand. I can only hope others open up too.

There's other reasons to be out on the trail, other than to simply be on 2 wheels. Perhaps they just wanted to be "adventurers" or wanting to make getting fit a bit more enjoyable. Or maybe they're interested in other possible benefits like "forest bathing". I personally feel no loyalty to being on top of 2 wheels with a handlebar, nor the pain associated with training up fitness before being able to "have more fun". There's off road roller blading, dirt surfing, and those 4-wheeled DH bikes you may have seen disabled mtn bikers on. Are people making the most of their lives doing the relatively same thing over and over? I'm at the point where I had my fun (I consider the learning part fun, not the fitness grinding part) years ago and am more or less just having fun watching buddies go through the same process I did about a decade ago, but much quicker, partly because bikes have gotten much better since then.

I know you ride from your doorstep to all these mountains, racking up more mileage and elevation than people do in a week, and these people consider that crazy. It's because of the mental blocks in our heads. If I had some assistance to make that challenge seem more manageable, that were more convenient than an aid station and bail-out option (that would require another person who's very generous with their time), I'd totally consider it, but alas the range of these bikes are too low for your rides, which would likely be depleted faster than expected once the trails point upwards. Perhaps with 44160 or 2170 cells that are being engineered for electric cars, range could be improved on e-bikes to make me actually want to bite for all purpose transportation and recreation.

I expect those that come into the sport with instant gratification in mind, to be quick to exit. Perhaps a couple years and they'd have experienced the fruit of biking and are wanting even grander adventure, rather than repeating the same. I don't expect them to be causing long term traffic issues, instead just causing typical foreigner-type issues with the locals (shooing them away doesn't seem to be a good solution). Not really any different than those that come into the sport with super low budget in mind, who are also quick to exit. These are the types people like to help out, since they exit due to things being too scary, and we know the solution to that problem ($$$, pain, and general tips). Cyclists and other trail users gaining an image of being a hateful spiteful bunch, even if it's mostly directed towards anything motorized, doesn't help the image of the sport, if your goal is to be an advocate in the quest for more trail access.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

eFat said:


> Well, it "confirms" that e-bikes go 4 mph faster... 4 mph, this must change everything...


Well, 2 mph faster where it matters... uphill.

lol.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

...


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

eFat said:


> Well, it "confirms" that e-bikes go 4 mph faster... 4 mph, this must change everything...





AGarcia said:


> Well, 2 mph faster where it matters... uphill.
> 
> lol.


How do you actually qualify those statements?

The numbers presented were just "averages" and no mention of how much of the trail was uphill, flat or downhill. All we get from this is 4 more miles can be covered in a 1 hour period. There is plenty of data missing from this study.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

The @ twice as far or twice the average speed seems to be consistent between mtbs and emtbs with the same rider. Descending is pretty much the same, with emtbs somewhat faster in the flats and much faster on the climbs, much of that is limited by the trail obviously. If the trail itself doesn't limit the uphill or traversing speeds, you can go faster on an ebike. The steeper and longer the climb, the greater differential between mtbs and emtbs.

For example, on a paved road climb, an emtb was faster than top Euro pros and 3x faster than a mtb.

And on a regular all mtn loop, the average was twice as fast using the motor for half of it.

https://www.lift-mtb.com/accueil-faq...trava-english/

Steep, techy climbs in a third of the time:



> "Last time I attended a brand's demo I ascended and descended a mountain once in one hour 20 on my own steam. On the electric bike I hit the peak three times in one hour 40 and enjoyed three different descents," one dealer visiting Cube told us en-route to the airport."


https://cyclingindustry.news/editors...ike-naysayers/

Less than half:



> "What was most interesting was that the fastest ascent, combined with high 'turbo' power mode resulted in the highest heart rate recorded. Now the 'turbo' mode is most associated with lazy riding but the reality is you are climbing so rapidly there is the tendency to go through the gears to reach the maximum pedal assist speed - about 29kph. That's pretty rapid climbing. The climbing heart rate for the Trek even surpassed that for a standard mtb climb but the time was more than halved."
> 
> STANDARD CLIMB
> LAPIERRE (EMTB - TURBO MODE) 5mins 45sec AVE 113bpm MAX 130bpm
> ...


https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-re...mtb-facts.html

Twice as fast:



> "Just got back from a morning at Llandegla, my first time with assistance. Set off for a lap set to 100% to see a) how long the battery would last, and b) how much fun it would be! The first climb is normally 30 minutes of hell as you fight 157m of elevation over 4.8km of fire road. Breezed up it in 16 mins, grinning like a loon."


Specialized Turbo Levo FSR Comp 6Fattie | Page 2 | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community



> "Though I know full well that they'll soon realise that it isn't 'cheating' having battery assist and that if you still put in your legwork it just allows you to cover twice the distance at twice the average speed - with all of the ride being fun, not just the downhill sections.."


e-MTB vs XC - which is faster? | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community



> "On my first steep climb I was able to hold 20 km/h."
> 
> "Apparently Nico Vouillioz likes to train on his Lapierre pedelec because he can climb singletrack at downhill speeds, sharpening his handling skills while gaining vert. Angling your bike to deal with berms on the climb is an odd but thrilling sensation and with the right trails the ascent can approach the stoke level of downhilling."
> 
> "I rode from my house to Expresso trail on Fromme, traversing singletrack to arrive at the fireroad before climbing and descending, and made it home in 42 minutes. I don't think I could do the same ride under my own power in less than 90 minutes."


https://nsmb.com/articles/haibike-e-bike/

How fast? Fast enough to:



> "All that extra power means that mild or uphill trails quickly becomes a fast and furious test of skills. Instead of huffing, puffing and dripping with sweat, you'll now be going fast enough to have to spot berms and catch drifts even on uphill trails. Basically it's like descending all the time, and who could hate that?"


10 reasons you should try an e-MTB - BikeRadar



> "There is no denying the potential for trail conflicts that this technology brings along. When you're suddenly able to climb a trail at speed and have fun doing so, it doesn't take genius to realize that at some point, you're going to run into riders enjoying themselves going down."


It's Electric! The 27.5+ Specialized Turbo Levo - Mountain Biking Pictures - Vital MTB

For an idea on realative speeds, the average walking pace is 3 mph, the average jogging pace is 7mph, if you stepped around a corner, who would you rather run into the runner or the walker?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Harryman - can you edit that post to put the quotes in actualy quote boxes? It is hard to see at a glance where your comments start and end.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Thanks, Harryman, you always post solidly supported material. But that average jogging pace at 7mph has got to be wrong, I'd guess more around 5 - 5.5mph.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Yes, jogging pace seems to be a bit high imo. Thanks for the info.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

chazpat said:


> Thanks, Harryman, you always post solidly supported material. But that average jogging pace at 7mph has got to be wrong, I'd guess more around 5 - 5.5mph.


I should have said running, not jogging, my mistake.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Harryman said:


> The @ twice as far or twice the average speed seems to be consistent between mtbs and emtbs with the same rider. Descending is pretty much the same, with emtbs somewhat faster in the flats and much faster on the climbs, much of that is limited by the trail obviously. If the trail itself doesn't limit the uphill or traversing speeds, you can go faster on an ebike. The steeper and longer the climb, the greater differential between mtbs and emtbs.


Good stuff! I certainly see the "twice as fast" capability on steep climbs (on an e-bike can do 8 mph on trails I do at 4 mph on my regular bike). I wonder whether the "twice as far" holds up, however, in the aggregate. While there's no doubt that folks can, subject to battery life limitations, travel longer distances, I wonder whether folks on e-bikes are actually doubling the distance, or getting close to doing that?

Anecdotally, that does not regularly seem to be the case based on the other e-mtb riders I've ridden with. All of us are doing the same length of ride we would ordinarily do, we just do them with either: (1) less time with same effort, or (2) same time with less effort, relative to regular bikes. Then again, I ride with groups of mixed e-bikers and regular bikers. And most if not all, it seems, have regular mtbs in addition to e-mtbs. But anecdotally, my world is relatively small. I get that.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

AGarcia said:


> Good stuff! I certainly see the "twice as fast" capability on steep climbs (on an e-bike can do 8 mph on trails I do at 4 mph on my regular bike). I wonder whether the "twice as far" holds up, however, in the aggregate. While there's no doubt that folks can, subject to battery life limitations, travel longer distances, I wonder whether folks on e-bikes are actually doubling the distance, or getting close to doing that?
> 
> Anecdotally, that does not regularly seem to be the case based on the other e-mtb riders I've ridden with. All of us are doing the same length of ride we would ordinarily do, we just do them with either: (1) less time with same effort, or (2) same time with less effort, relative to regular bikes. Then again, I ride with groups of mixed e-bikers and regular bikers. And most if not all, it seems, have regular mtbs in addition to e-mtbs. But anecdotally, my world is relatively small. I get that.


My regular weekly group ride generally lasts 1.5 - 2 hours depending on how everyone is feeling. It is pretty slow paced, no man left behind, lots of breaks, lots of chatting. I am honestly curious how it would change if at all, if every single one of us switched to eBikes. My best guess is we might do some extra miles just because the climbs are faster, but it would not be dramatically different.

We average 10 miles on our rides now. Roughly 1000 - 1200 feet of elevation gain.

This week we only did 7.5 (but 1000 feet of gain) because I bought a new camera and made everyone session certain sections a few times so we could get pictures.

The most we ever do is about 12 miles.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

AGarcia said:


> Good stuff! I certainly see the "twice as fast" capability on steep climbs (on an e-bike can do 8 mph on trails I do at 4 mph on my regular bike). I wonder whether the "twice as far" holds up, however, in the aggregate. While there's no doubt that folks can, subject to battery life limitations, travel longer distances, I wonder whether folks on e-bikes are actually doubling the distance, or getting close to doing that?
> 
> Anecdotally, that does not regularly seem to be the case based on the other e-mtb riders I've ridden with. All of us are doing the same length of ride we would ordinarily do, we just do them with either: (1) less time with same effort, or (2) same time with less effort, relative to regular bikes. Then again, I ride with groups of mixed e-bikers and regular bikers. And most if not all, it seems, have regular mtbs in addition to e-mtbs. But anecdotally, my world is relatively small. I get that.


There's obviously a lot of "what ifs" that are dependent on the rider and their mood, but the potential that the motors provide seem to be twice as far and fast in the same amount of time at your normal effort, or just farther and maybe a little bit faster on the climbs in more time with the same effort. And, of course, just as far and just as fast with less effort.


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