# Is a suspension fork on a 20" kids bike worthwhile?



## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

I am starting to get my 10 year old son into mountain biking - he's been riding on the road and paved trail for a few years now, but has done only limited trail riding. Riding with him today, he was really struggling on anything where the trail pointed uphill with his current bike where he has only a single gear to work with.

I am going to start looking for a 20" bike for him (he's very small for his age), and I am trying to decide if I should make a suspension fork a requirement for the bike. He's really light, and I am questioning if the benefits of the front fork outweigh the weight penalties of a front shock. He's definitely not an aggressive rider yet.

My bigger preference would be for disk brakes, but they seem to be even harder to come by on kids bikes...

Thanks for any input!


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Weight does not matter. A suspension fork is absolutely critical for riding on anything bumpier than a gravel road. Don't play into the bike shop crap about weight; it does not matter and it will never matter.


----------



## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

I appreciate the feedback. Let me refine the question a little (since I have not talked to a bike shop about this yet):

I am the one concerned about the weight of the bike. He is small for his age, and quite frankly not the most athletic. I think he weighs a little over 50 pounds. He was very frustrated today because he couldn't ride up a lot of the little hills that we saw. No doubt, getting a multi-geared bike will make a huge improvement. But at his weight/size an extra 5 pounds isn't trivial. Are the forks put on kids bikes good enough to to justify the extra weight? I am first and foremost interested in making mountain biking a fun experience for him.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Weight does matter. For kids I thing the two most important things are weight and that the bike is not too big for them.

Little kids can handle a bike with no suspension just fine and the lighter the bike is the easier it is to throw around. The suspension forks on most small kids bikes are terrible anyway and do more harm than good. Far from wanting one of these crap forks, you should actively avoid them. 

Disk brakes don't fall into that category but they're not essential. If the bike has good quality disk brakes, fine. If not, don't sweat it.


----------



## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

I have to admit that this is closer to my way of thinking, but I am looking for all opinions. I am wondering if a kids bike with plus/fat tires might be a better option. It would have more rolling resistance but it would get better traction. For what we are riding, I think the compliance of fat tires might be sufficient for now. This coming from a person that has no interest in getting a plus/fat bike for his own riding. Again - open to opinions. Thanks!


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> I have to admit that this is closer to my way of thinking, but I am looking for all opinions. I am wondering if a kids bike with plus/fat tires might be a better option. It would have more rolling resistance but it would get better traction. For what we are riding, I think the compliance of fat tires might be sufficient for now. This coming from a person that has no interest in getting a plus/fat bike for his own riding. Again - open to opinions. Thanks!


See my thread about riding with kids regarding tires. The #1 upgrade I would say to any bike. I also have a small 10 year old and he is on a 20" REI Lucca. It has a suntour suspension fork and he definitely uses the travel to its full 1.5" of travel. I wish there was some rebound control but I suspect it is helpful to him. He isn't as much limited by the weight as he is by his strength, finding his back to hurt and legs burning but his equal sized 2yr younger sister rides almost the same bike and has no issues with the fork, weight or muscle issues. She is just stronger than he is. She also uses all the travel in her fork.

I would be most concerned about the rotating mass of a kids fat bike. They are really heavy and there is little you can do to reduce the mass. You would have to run like 4psi in the tires for them to be compliant. As it is with 20x2.0 Maxxis Maxxdaddy tires we run around 16psi. We were running 12psi when the kids were below 50lbs. Now that they have both finally ticked over the 50lbs threshold I noticed that their tires were folding in faster corners so I bumped a little more pressure in them and they seem to be perfect now.

I wouldn't worry about discs, kids don't really ride fast enough to use them, generally. However buy some good pedals, something with replaceable or adjustable pins and get some Vans to begin with. Also gloves are a great addition if you don't already have those. The contact points are the best way to ensure that a kid has fun and if their feet grip and hands are comfy they will have a much better time out there. The plastic pedals most 20" mountain bikes come with are horrible, made worse when worn with kids sneakers and any moisture. Vans have a waffle tread that grips the pins well, are cheap and last pretty long on kids feet as well as coming in lace, velcro or slip on versions, plus high top.


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> I appreciate the feedback. Let me refine the question a little (since I have not talked to a bike shop about this yet):
> 
> I am the one concerned about the weight of the bike. He is small for his age, and quite frankly not the most athletic. I think he weighs a little over 50 pounds. He was very frustrated today because he couldn't ride up a lot of the little hills that we saw. No doubt, getting a multi-geared bike will make a huge improvement. But at his weight/size an extra 5 pounds isn't trivial. Are the forks put on kids bikes good enough to to justify the extra weight? I am first and foremost interested in making mountain biking a fun experience for him.


A friend of mine has a child of similar age and size. I think we weighed his bike, which is one of the Specialized models, and it was ~30 pounds.

Even if you're talking about a whole 5 pounds, and the child is 50 pounds, 5 pounds is 6.25% of the total weight of rider and bicycle. That hardly moves the meter. You couldn't have picked a better word to describe it--"trivial"--which according to Google dictionary is defined as "of little value or importance." I carried more than 5 pounds of water on my back yesterday when I rode. Do you really think that I would have been faster or enjoyed my ride more if I'd had 3 pounds of water instead of 6? I don't. Weight does not matter. Bike shops and bike companies told you it mattered, which is why you want to talk about it.

We had an old 26" fork off of a broken mountain bike frame that we put on my friend's son's bike. In the process of removing the crappy fork it came with and converting him to tubeless, we did drop a few pounds on the bike and he now has something with some damping control that can be tuned for his weight. It's never going to be perfect because he's 1/3 of the weight the fork was probably designed for, but the fork goes a long way to reducing fatigue and increasing his enjoyment of the bike.

I've been smaller than average my entire life and I still have benefited from technology on my bicycles. That, too, is a distraction. He's going to have to power any machine that is under him with whatever God gave him for size and strength. A trivial amount of weight isn't going to make him stronger or more powerful. More riding will--by up to 50%.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

twodownzero said:


> A friend of mine has a child of similar age and size. I think we weighed his bike, which is one of the Specialized models, and it was ~30 pounds.


My adult-size full-suspension bike weighs thirty-pounds! Weight does not matter? Well, I've got to tell you, I like going down rocky trails on that bike but for smoother trails? For the kind of trails a kid would be riding? Hell no. There is a reason I have four bikes and three of those bikes are lighter than the full-sus.

And I'm a grown-up! You think a thirty-pound bike is good for a little kid? A friend of mine build up a bike for his son a few years ago using heavy-ass parts. Down-hill tyres and wheels, stiff that just wasn't needed. Boy was about fourteen at the time and when we went to trail parks it was pitiful. Poor kid was just about crying dragging that lump up the hills. Spent all day waiting on him.

Thirty-pounds for a kid's bike is ridiculous. Just feckin' rediculous. Get them a light bike and watch them fly.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

30lb bikes fly just fine.


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> My adult-size full-suspension bike weighs thirty-pounds! Weight does not matter? Well, I've got to tell you, I like going down rocky trails on that bike but for smoother trails? For the kind of trails a kid would be riding? Hell no. There is a reason I have four bikes and three of those bikes are lighter than the full-sus.
> 
> And I'm a grown-up! You think a thirty-pound bike is good for a little kid? A friend of mine build up a bike for his son a few years ago using heavy-ass parts. Down-hill tyres and wheels, stiff that just wasn't needed. Boy was about fourteen at the time and when we went to trail parks it was pitiful. Poor kid was just about crying dragging that lump up the hills. Spent all day waiting on him.
> 
> Thirty-pounds for a kid's bike is ridiculous. Just feckin' rediculous. Get them a light bike and watch them fly.


You'd be hard pressed to find a better quality bike for a little kid than the Specialized offerings. We upgraded his with a trigger shifter instead of the grip shifter it came with, installed a better fork, set it up tubeless, and shaved off a few pounds, but despite being a little kid bike with 20" wheels and tires, it is as heavy as my steel hardtail I bet. I can only guess it's because the frame, while aluminum, is either excessively heavy or maybe even made from straight-gauge tubing. It's not like we filled the frame with lead or something. It was just a heavy bike. It's not like there's a gazillion options for little kid bikes, either, so yes, I do think this is an excellent bike compared to the others I've seen that a little kid can fit on. It has real gears and real brakes.

I believe it was this model:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/riprock-20/p/128910?color=239710-128910

The reason you care so much about weight is because you've been brainwashed by marketing to think it matters. It doesn't matter. If you don't believe that, I have a friend who would absolutely drop you and leave you behind, even though he's 6'7" and rides a single speed bike that weighs 35+ pounds. I'm not saying that I purposely add weight or take an anchor with me when I ride, but I'm also not leaving my spare tube, pump, tire plugs, sealant, and extra water back at the car when I ride just to save 30 seconds on an hour long climb. In fact, if I was climbing for an hour, I'd stop at least once or twice for way longer than 30 seconds, so "trivial" might not even be strong enough. "Irrelevant" is more accurate.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

twodownzero said:


> The reason you care so much about weight is because you've been brainwashed by marketing to think it matters.


You know what I think now?

Weight does matter. That's why racers like lighter bikes. That's why racing cars are lightweight. I've owned and ridden lighter bikes and heavier bikes and if you think the difference is imagined because I'm brainwashed, you're an idiot. My full-sus weighs thirty-pounds but if I could have gotten the same durability and performance in a bike weighing twenty-four for the same money I would have.

I also disagree that Specialized offers the best quality kid's bikes. We've had kid's bikes from Specialized, Giant and Scott and I recon the Scott and Specialized came out of the same factory in Taiwan. They were near identical and used many of the same parts. Nothing on the bikes were brilliant quality. Tyres were generic, forks were crap RST pogo-sticks and both were ridiculously heavy considering how small they were.

If you want to talk about the best kid's bikes you could start here: LINK


----------



## robbnj (Jul 19, 2013)

As a kid, I rode my Sears BMX-style steel-framed bike with the Bradlees-bought high-drag mag wheels & tires EVERYWHERE. Up and down steep hills, across fields, on the street, on dirt tracks and lots of jumps. 
EVERYWHERE. 
Up to 20 miles a day.
Weight wasn't a consideration, nor the horrible hubs on the mags, nor suspension (it didn't even exist) but the single-speed drivetrain WAS. A multi-speed would have meant less walking up the steepies, and more miles in a day.

I was "average". As you have said, your son is not.
Weight. Gearing. Front suspension. If you have to pick only one, go for gearing. It makes up for extra weight and will make riding more enjoyable (ie successful). If you can pick two, go for gearing and front suspension (though it will likely be tough to tune it to work well for his weight).

Imagine doing 25 miles in one day on this (not mine, but almost identical):


----------



## Genes1s (Sep 10, 2017)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> I am starting to get my 10 year old son into mountain biking - he's been riding on the road and paved trail for a few years now, but has done only limited trail riding. Riding with him today, he was really struggling on anything where the trail pointed uphill with his current bike where he has only a single gear to work with.
> 
> I am going to start looking for a 20" bike for him (he's very small for his age), and I am trying to decide if I should make a suspension fork a requirement for the bike. He's really light, and I am questioning if the benefits of the front fork outweigh the weight penalties of a front shock. He's definitely not an aggressive rider yet.
> 
> ...


I would not put any type of suspension unless you are willing to spend the money for a good one, not any of the most entry level you see no matter what brand.

My son was 7 when he needed the 20" bike. After looking around, I got him a 20" Cannondale with 1X6 drive train. The bike is a street bike but it was very well built with all aluminum. It weighs 20.5 lbm. I replaced the handle bar and seat post with carbon fiber and that knocked out a couple hundreds of grams. 
Get the fattest tire you can fit on there, I put Haro Dirt Joe 20 X 2.25" and that things rolled and cornered like and BMW M3! These tires are sort of street tires but you can still go on dirt with it as long as they are not muddy or too dry.

We took this bike on singletracks around Mt Hood Area (Portland, OR) and he had no problem going down hill with this setup. He struggled to climb but it was expected with that 1X6 setup, but we're talking about several hundreds feet of non stop climbing here. For flat trails with a few inclines, this bike was awesome.

Weight matters the most, if it is heavy no way your son would enjoy going the slightest incline. I had him try the 3X9 his sister has and having more gears didn't really do anything for him, especially with that twist shifter mech. A 2X makes better sense but I would rather get a lighter bike than having the extra weight and complication of the 2X. If you have fatter tires with lower pressure, you can roll thru anything easier even without the front suspension.

If you can find one of these, get it, It is a gem. We sold his bike since he needs to be in 24" now but I was tempted to keep it knowing how special this bike was.


----------



## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

twodownzero said:


> You'd be hard pressed to find a better quality bike for a little kid than the Specialized offerings. We upgraded his with a trigger shifter instead of the grip shifter it came with, installed a better fork, set it up tubeless, and shaved off a few pounds, but despite being a little kid bike with 20" wheels and tires, it is as heavy as my steel hardtail I bet. I can only guess it's because the frame, while aluminum, is either excessively heavy or maybe even made from straight-gauge tubing. It's not like we filled the frame with lead or something. It was just a heavy bike. It's not like there's a gazillion options for little kid bikes, either, so yes, I do think this is an excellent bike compared to the others I've seen that a little kid can fit on. It has real gears and real brakes.
> 
> I believe it was this model:
> https://www.specialized.com/us/en/riprock-20/p/128910?color=239710-128910
> ...


If you linked the Specialized Riprock as the bike you have, the single biggest upgrade you can make to the bike is ditch the "plus" tires (which will reduce weight).

Sorry to burst your bubble but a lower bike weight is the easiest upgrade initially you can do to make you kid a better rider and enjoy the sport. Not fatter tires, not a better fork, not tubeless, and not a trigger shifter. Though those upgrades will also make the bike lighter.

Sadly, in our youth riding group the kids on the "plus" bikes are the ones off the back grouped together. Why? Because their bikes are the heaviest.

The motor (you) can only push weight so far before it gets tired. If you really think a 50 pound kid riding 30 pound bike will do just as well as the same kid on a 20 pound bike then I'm not sure what to tell you. Heck, my Strava times are faster on the same course when I swap out lighter tires! And you call that marketing?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Faster only matters if you're racing. Funner matters all the time, which is why you see a lot of people going with heavier bikes and plus tires these days. If light is the name of the game, get a BMX mini. You can get a solid bike that's under 15lbs in stock form for a reasonable price ($300 and under used) and they do fine on mellower trails after a gearing and tire change. Nothing in the MTB segment comes close for the money IME.


----------



## stevelim (Jul 23, 2008)

I recently updated our 7 yo Spawn Savage 1.0 (now Raiju) with a Suntour 20" 80mm air fork and wider Vee Tire Crown Gems set up tubeless. Didn't weigh pre-post but she hasn't noticed the weight difference. 

Hard to tell how much is the updates versus her just becoming a better rider but I think it has made an appreciable difference. Suspension has given her confidence to tackle some rockier descents and the tires have made her much better on looser corners. She also like to bounce her bike when just pedaling around which is good practice I think for jumps, drops etc


----------



## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

interesting article. https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mtb-gear/10-best-kids-mountain-bikes-2018/


----------



## Genes1s (Sep 10, 2017)

armii said:


> interesting article. https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mtb-gear/10-best-kids-mountain-bikes-2018/


That's interesting article. Those bikes toward the bottom are spendy, the last one 24" Meekboyz Mega Beast is $7500. I wonder how many they sold?


----------



## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

twodownzero said:


> Weight does not matter. A suspension fork is absolutely critical for riding on anything bumpier than a gravel road. Don't play into the bike shop crap about weight; it does not matter and it will never matter.


Seriously... smh.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

thesmokingman said:


> Seriously... smh.


Yeah, I agree.


----------



## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

I appreciate all the feedback. I’m going to see if I can get my son a test ride on a bike with a front fork to see if there is enough action in the fork to justify the weight. I do think I will avoid plus/fat tire bike.


----------



## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

I’ve seen the Cannondale bikes online - they look really nice. Ill have to see if the local REI has any in the store. Thanks!


----------



## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

Mr Pig said:


> You know what I think now?
> 
> Weight does matter. That's why racers like lighter bikes. That's why racing cars are lightweight. I've owned and ridden lighter bikes and heavier bikes and if you think the difference is imagined because I'm brainwashed, you're an idiot. My full-sus weighs thirty-pounds but if I could have gotten the same durability and performance in a bike weighing twenty-four for the same money I would have.
> 
> ...


We had 16" specialized and trek bikes - I'll take the Specialized any day of the week because the aluminum frame was so much lighter. Maybe I'm brainwashed too, but I want to make this sport as much fun for my son as possible. For him that means being able to stay on his bike while out on the trails as much as possible.


----------



## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

the tyres on the riprock 20 are not particularly heavy but the tubes are (~240g) They were the easiest wheels to set up tubeless I've ever done. The fork does actually work but its only 50mm travel remember. 

Weight matters up to a point but unless they are racing.


----------



## dookie (Sep 6, 2005)

twodownzero said:


> Weight does not matter. A suspension fork is absolutely critical for riding on anything bumpier than a gravel road. Don't play into the bike shop crap about weight; it does not matter and it will never matter.


So wrong, as 20" sized kids go.

They're so light...fat, soft tires are all the suspension necessary.

Losing 2+ lbs off the front end is YUGE for climbing, manualing, and general playfullness.


----------



## hogfly (Mar 6, 2018)

Someone coming into this forum claiming weight doesn’t matter is heretical. The gospel of lightweight here is only rivaled by the weight weenie forums. 

I confess that I can see the wisdom of lightweight for kid builds, and Thats from someone who put my kid on a heavy ass Specialized RipRock 24 for his first real bike. He progressed fairly well on downhill but was always frustrated on rides with lots of climbs. He was even more frustrated when he started riding with NICA kids in lighter, larger XC bikes. 

When I put him on a BMX in a small bike park and pump track, we started to really see his skills progress and his fun levels go up. 

Now he’s riding an adult XS Stance at 11 years old and doing well going up and down.


----------



## grabtharshammer (Feb 24, 2017)

weight is important but isn't everything. my 8 year old daughters bike is around 25 pounds and she did ok. it came with a 40 tooth chainring in the front and like a 34 as the biggest cog on the cassette. l just swapped out cranks for a 30 tooth and it made a huge difference on the climbs. I wish more of the bikes I saw out there geared lower.

I would say don't buy suspension unless it's a real fork. the spring in tube jobs are worthless. you are better off with a big tire aired down. Which is the nice thing about getting a bike with disk brakes you have more tire options. I can't put bigger tires on one of my kid bikes because the v-brakes don't clear them.


----------



## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Weight matters but so does confidence. With confidence kids gain enthusiasm and with enthusiasm they'll gain legs to pedal just about anything up a hill if it means they can ride down. I definitely think suspension is important if you want your kid to enjoy real mountain biking.

I just bought my 6 year old son a 120mm full suspension Marin Hawk Hill and I can see it won't be long till he's riding everything I do.


----------



## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

I'll chime in with my $0.02 from all the kids I've brought into riding over the years.....Yes, weight does matter, it's insane to put a kid that barely weighs 50-60lbs on a bike that weighs >25lbs, the ratio is just crazy compared to adults, but finding a reasonably priced kids bike that doesn't weigh nearly as much as most adult bikes, isn't easy. As to suspension, for a kid that light, not necessary in the least and unless you're willing to spend mega $$ to buy a SID of some such, you're better off just making sure they've got a nice, light, fat 2.4"> size tyre on the front, that's huge for them.


----------



## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> Weight does matter. For kids I thing the two most important things are weight and that the bike is not too big for them.
> 
> Little kids can handle a bike with no suspension just fine and the lighter the bike is the easier it is to throw around. The suspension forks on most small kids bikes are terrible anyway and do more harm than good. Far from wanting one of these crap forks, you should actively avoid them.
> 
> Disk brakes don't fall into that category but they're not essential. If the bike has good quality disk brakes, fine. If not, don't sweat it.


Do you ever ride or work with kids on mountain bikes? I often think you are an experienced voice on MTBR, but I have a significant pool of evidence that says your opinions quite a bit opposite from mine here.

I'm a kids team coach, I have been for years. I spent all weekend at a race where almost 300 kids raced. A few things are very obvious from riding with and observing the performance of kids on bikes for years.

Weight does not matter. The number of 30 pound bikes (plus or minus maybe a pound) is amazing, and these bikes are also on the podium. And not just as a rare oddity. Maybe even a majority. I'll bet 95% of the kids have no idea what their bike weighs. The kids that do know the weight are mostly just trying to remember what their dad said, because he is the bike nerd that weighed it. A decent quality bike intended for the purpose is good enough.

Tire size doesn't matter. One class has been won repeatedly by a fat bike, others are peppered with podium riders on plus bikes. There are also many 2.2 to 2.5 tires. One thing you don't see is anything really skinny. They kids almost exclusively practice on what they race on, and once they are used to the grip/cushion/handling of what they have they learn to use it.

Bike size doesn't matter. One million internet keyboard warriors will scream, so let me explain. Bike fit matters way less than you think. Two foot, flat footed standing over the top bar is not needed or desired. If you can fix the reach with a stem and get one foot down flat a kid can ride it just fine. The number one metric is a seat that is the right height. The kids love to trade bikes or grab adults bikes and ride them. They do just fine as long as they aren't so stretched out they can't steer. The most dangerous combination is a big kid on a little bike, they have a tendency to go over the bars. Even then the combo usually needs to be extreme. If possible buy a little big and let them grow into it. Many of the smaller kids that move up to adult sized bikes end up winning their category.

Wheel size matters. 12, 16, 20, and 24 inch bikes suck. I can't say it any other way. There is no avoiding them when the kids are small. Fat and plus tires on those rim sizes can help with stability, tracking, and roll over somewhat but bigger wheels really help. Once the kids can fit on 26 and up rim sizes in a class there is no more competition from the smaller wheeled bikes. I moved my kids to adult sized wheels as soon as it was safe. The transformation was instant.

So back to the original question. Yes, a kids bike for trail use needs a suspension fork and gears. If frustration is setting in the lack of gears is likely a factor. Actually riding matters more than anything. I see more kids quit because they can't get over the endurance hump than anything else. Any of the kids bikes mentioned in this thread will be good enough to get some rides in. I mentioned winning and podiums in this post as a relative gauge to performance, but any kid that rides is better off than one that only rides a couch. Any kid that gets to ride with his parents is one that is luckier than one that doesn't.


----------



## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

LyNx said:


> As to suspension, for a kid that light, not necessary in the least and unless you're willing to spend mega $$ to buy a SID of some such, you're better off just making sure they've got a nice, light, fat 2.4"> size tyre on the front, that's huge for them.


I agree, but just be careful with the bigger rubber. A 24x2.4" tire for the most part is about 800 grams. At least for the Minion and Hans Dampf. Lowering rotational weight is the best upgrade you can do for a kid, and that is typically through better wheels and tires.

I think parents have to think about plus bikes (mid-fat) for their kids in a way they can relate. So your kid is about 50 pounds. Do you want to be riding an 80 pound fat bike all the time? Because that's effectively what a Specialized Riprock, Cannondale Cujo, Trek Roscoe, etc. are now. The majority of the weight is in the wheelset. To make matters worse they have crappy gearing too. Fine for casual riding but once even the slightest uphill is introduced, your kid will be so far off the back, compared to a traditional bike at least.

I owned a fat bike for a while, I LOATHED it when I had to climb. Imagine your kids.

I get the novelty and parents/kids might think the bigger wheels are cool, but if you put your kid on a + bike and then on a lighter traditional bike they WILL ride longer with you and with less fuss. If that matters I guess. Not everyone "races" as slapheadmofo says but a 30 pounder in the air and park is way different than a 30 pounder on trail where you have to ride up and down.

As for suspension forks, most of the forks on kids bikes are complete garbage at the 20" size. Unless you go with something like a BROOD 20" air fork ($400) or MRP Rustler ($849) but who wants to spend that much money on a bike their kid will get MAYBE 2 years on?






The Trek Superfly 20 was one of the best bikes for the money at just 19 pounds. Sadly Trek replaced it with the Trek Roscoe - a rigid bike that is over 4 pounds heavier, 23.21 pounds for a rigid 20". But hey it's got big tires and guess what - that 4 pounds is rotational weight in the wheels! And some say weight of kids bikes don't matter, ha.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/mountain-bikes/kids-mountain-bikes/roscoe-20/p/22745/

This is a good read I found from another post in the fatbike forum from a couple years back. Because they too say heavier bike/wheel weight doesn't matter.

"We Can Prove Why Extra Mass on Bike Wheels Is Your Worst Enemy"

https://www.wired.com/2016/06/cycling-physics-extra-mass-bike-wheels-enemy/


----------



## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

adaycj said:


> Do you ever ride or work with kids on mountain bikes? Weight does not matter. Tire size doesn't matter.


I've coached our kids local riding group (80 kids this season) since 2009 and our experience is a bit different. In fact we have a "bike library" fleet of donated program modified/lighter bikes to get the lower income kids off their crappy 30+ pound bikes and onto higher quality bikes that are lighter. Dropping 5 pounds and proper gearing has been huge for kids performance. And the kids with PLUS tires are the ones grouped together off the back. But we live/ride in the Rocky Mountains at elevation (6000 ft) so YMMV.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I missed the part where the OP said they were XC racing.
(Probably because it isn't there.)


----------



## bim6180 (Sep 7, 2017)

If you really want lightweight bikes for kids, look at islabikes and woom. I'm actually getting woom 24" bike for my 8 yr-old daughter next year. She currently has a 20" diamonback with what looks like a suspension fork. The whole bike weigh almost as heavy as my Process 153. She can pedal it just fine on flat pavement, but when it comes to a hill, she struggles.... a lot... to the point of crying, etc.

30lbs bike is 60% of my girl's 50lbs weight. I'm not talking about racing, but if weight doesn't matter, then all of us at around 190lbs should be able to ride a full suspension bike weighing 114lbs with no problem right? .. not sure if i can even climb a hill with a bike that heavy (in relation to my weight).... maybe i'm looking at this completely wrong, but i'm all about getting my girls to "enjoy" biking, not dread it. So, Woom 24" bike at 18lbs is on my list for next year's b'day present


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

I tried taking a look at some cycling calculator to see how this might play out and here's what I came up with:

Rider Weight (lbs)Bike Weight (lbs)Power Required, Flat Ground @ 10mph (watts)Power Required, 15% grade @ 5mph (watts)401523.789402024.397402524.8104403025.3112403525.8120601525.8120602026.3128602526.8136603027.3144603527.8152

[/tr]
https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

Short summary:
If you're riding with kids on mostly flat terrain, they may not see much difference in the amount of power required with a heavier bike.

If you're riding with kids on hilly terrain, the difference in power required with a heavier bike may be more noticeable and will likely lead to them becoming fatigued sooner.

Take a kid on a heavier bike, give them a lighter bike and they'll appear to have more endurance.

Just how much more will depend on the area and the trails you ride: something tells me many of the differences in experience here come from where people are located.


----------



## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

> I missed the part where the OP said they were XC racing.
> (Probably because it isn't there.)





> Faster only matters if you're racing. Funner matters all the time, which is why you see a lot of people going with heavier bikes and plus tires these days. If light is the name of the game, get a BMX mini. You can get a solid bike that's under 15lbs in stock form for a reasonable price ($300 and under used) and they do fine on mellower trails after a gearing and tire change. Nothing in the MTB segment comes close for the money IME.


See pushing a BMX mini or 30lb bike by a 60lb kid up a 2000' climb doesn't sound like fun to me... spending a day at the dirt jumps with it does.

There are many many way's to enjoy riding with your kid... a BMX is only some of them.

Since we are now on 24 this is one of my kids buddies... still on a 20 though he's much better now..

https://417bikepark.co.uk

He's just finished a video with Matt Jones... where he rides his HT.which he uses on the pump track and dirt jumps.. he just got back from Morzine where he was clearing the 40'+ jumps.. on his FS... (Vids are on his FB page though)... but he still wants a lighter bike for pedalling uphill. When the uplifts aren't running he has to push to the top... whereas even though my kids bike is too big he can ride it up. As he lives there he doesn't pay for the uplifts either... I'm sure they would be less attractive if this came from his allowance!

He's never owned a BMX... it doesn't seem to have held him back.

Most of us simply want to ride with our kids... if they race they race... (I personally prefer riding than watching)..but he does XC and DH and as soon as he's old enough to be allowed to enter he'll be doing Enduro.... but mainly we just RIDE.... 
It might be 4000' of climbing and 20 miles or it might be uplift all day or push-up/ride up .. we just ride for the joy of riding together...

If he's/we're doing DH the bike weight isn't important... if we are riding 2000' of vertical climb then after the first 100' it matters hugely.

.. and when he races XC it's on a completely different HT...
.. and he borrows a bike for the pump track and DJ and loans his bike etc.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bim6180 said:


> 30lbs bike is 60% of my girl's 50lbs weight. I'm not talking about racing, but if weight doesn't matter, then all of us at around 190lbs should be able to ride a full suspension bike weighing 114lbs with no problem right?


A 30lb bike is 20% of a 150lb riders' weight but only 5% of 600lb riders' weight.

If you believe rider to bike weight ratios are the main factor in how fast or far or well a kid can ride, the answer is obviously to start force-feeding your kids donuts.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Steve-XtC said:


> .
> It might be 4000' of climbing and 20 miles or... if we are riding 2000' of vertical climb .


How about if you're in the situation the OP actually describes? A 10 year old riding mainly road and pavement, just starting to get into trail riding? Didn't see any mention of 4000' climbs...


----------



## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

I'm hesitant to even wade into this sh!tshow of a thread, but here goes:

OP - IME, yes, the weight penalty is worth it, but only if you get Spawn/Brood level quality. Stick with rigid otherwise, no reason to lug around a 4 lb fork that doesn't even work.


----------



## bim6180 (Sep 7, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> A 30lb bike is 20% of a 150lb riders' weight but only 5% of 600lb riders' weight.
> 
> If you believe rider to bike weight ratios are the main factor in how fast or far or well a kid can ride, the answer is obviously to start force-feeding your kids donuts.


Again, i'm not talking about riding faster. From what i saw in my 7 1/2 yr old riding a 30lbs 20" bike on pavement, mainly on rail to trail here in CT / NY, she struggles as soon as the road becomes hilly. With that in mind, the only way for me to make her "enjoy" biking and not crying everytime we encounter a steep hill on our ride is to get her a lighter bike.

OP has similar problem where his "light" 10 yr old son is struggling when things are pointed up hill. Lighter bike and better gearing helps with that problem. Suspension fork will not (and will only add to the weight of the bike).


----------



## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

GSJ1973 said:


> MRP Rustler ($849)


Those Rustlers are sooo overpriced it's insane. I know a dad who bought one (substantially discounted via BTI, before Spawn launched the Brood) and it does not work one lick better than my son's Brood. The suspension guru at my LBS has fully stripped one down and says there is nothing special on the inside. I bring it up periodically just to see him get riled up.



GSJ1973 said:


> but who wants to spend that much money on a bike their kid will get MAYBE 2 years on?


Well, resale makes the economics not quite so cut and dry. Also depends on the kid. I spent $2k on a Rokkusuta 20 and I'd do it again in a heartbeat:


__
http://instagr.am/p/BjnKLz5h_HG/


__
http://instagr.am/p/BbfsC8ZFRkz/


----------



## klauss (Oct 20, 2015)

Commencal Meta Junior 27.5 is supposed to arrive today for my 8 y.o. It's close to 30 lbs, but also has some things I think I can drop some weight with if needed - dropper post, go tubeless. His current Spawn 20 incher fully rigid is substantially lighter. He can pedal the spawn well on the trails, but it hurts his back on longer rides as he is too big for it at 4'7" ish and he gets bucked on many of the rougher downhill sections. We will see how he adjusts  The rockshock recon fork probably weighs a bunch.


----------



## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I think when trying to find the best bike for something, its critical that the goals/hopes/needs/trail types are defined a bit. Most parents aren't looking to REALLY mtb with their kid but instead just dink around on dirt/gravel/pavement (Isla/Woom are good for this). This of course is a bit confusing as this is MTBR. Also a fair amount of parents have no idea what the kid scene looks like too and think any regular bike is all a kid could ever need. That's a joke and needs to go away, its easy to search around here and see little kids going hard and needing FS/Disk Brakes/Light-in-the-right-places bikes. Its not uncommon anymore. Its like Skiing or BMX. You can watch 6yro doing 360s now on about anything...let alone crushing the other stuff too. They need the good stuff as much as any Dad/Mom does.

So if you plan/hope/want to ride legit trails with your kid (blues/blacks/jump lines/some park etc.) then a proper bike is helpful, not everything, but helpful in making that happen much sooner. It can also be more forgiving and safer. Also there is always a kid that can ride anything and look good, that doesn't mean that is the best equipment tho.

Fortunately there are a select few "Best" mountain bikes for kids. There is no question about it. They also use many of the same components that adult bikes use and hence the price is close to decent aluminum adult bike and why shouldn't it be? There are lesser bikes that can work well for kids (especially on light trails) but that doesn't mean they are the best and shouldn't be touted as such.

As for the OP? Its not always cut and dried even tho they aren't rippers yet. When we bought our Spawn Yama Jama (21lbs -1100$) my kid wasn't an uber rider, wasn't on the team, wasn't doing DH laps, wasn't on the jumplines, wasn't riding skinnys, wasn't doing 10mile DH Mom-Shuttles etc. All those things quickly turned into reality within a year (he was 5 when we bought the bike). Sometimes kid find their passion. That 1100$ might be the best money I've ever spent too. Had no idea at the time tho, we almost bought an Isla bike or Riprock before some guys on here set us straight. (would have been a YUGE mistake and waste of money).

Dan, I love seeing your kids pics. Cheers to the little dude that flies. He is getting Steezy!! Man I never get vids of anything anymore lol. Need to up my photog game.

Rode a nice skinny the other day tho.
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipNLPeOHk2OaFrJDX-n3pTCRhJW65lwMVbGllEUF


----------



## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

Great discussion. I really hope that I reach the day where my son and I are doing 20 mile rides with 4K feet of climbing - that would be a dream come true. We are going to look around at what is available locally and see what fits him. I hadn't seen those Spawn bikes before. Honestly, if he really took to the sport I would consider getting one of those at some point - they look awesome. In the meantime though, I just want to get him out riding the trails with me, preferably going a little further and riding a little better each time.


----------



## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> Great discussion. I really hope that I reach the day where my son and I are doing 20 mile rides with 4K feet of climbing - that would be a dream come true. We are going to look around at what is available locally and see what fits him. I hadn't seen those Spawn bikes before. Honestly, if he really took to the sport I would consider getting one of those at some point - they look awesome. In the meantime though, I just want to get him out riding the trails with me, preferably going a little further and riding a little better each time.


The GT Prime 20" isn't a bad bike for doing just that. Its a rigid with no-plus tires (a good thing) and only like 280$ with surprisingly decent fitment. If he blows through that, then just buy him the Spawn later and sell the GT for 150$ and only be out a hundred or so. if you want to him into it, you'll have to invest soon. By that I mean the time developing skills, building the home-ramps/skinnys, doing some skate park stuff etc. My kid got mainly hooked by doing Mom shuttles and not the XC slogs. Forget the climbing until later and he's into it. Right now its 100% fun. Think of it like Skiing...no one takes their kid XC skiiing to get them into the sport. Downhill .

The flip side is just buy the Spawn and become a MTB family. That's what we did. No questions asked, we ride...assuming they are fun/positive rides. Money is a funny thing. Lots of people choke on the cost of a nice kids bike yet have 2 iPads (not saying you do) that their kids spend ridiculous amount of time on (freaking Apple man...). Skip/sell that shite, spend it on a sick bike and ride it till the wheels fall off .

We love that Spawn.


----------



## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

svinyard said:


> The GT Prime 20" isn't a bad bike for doing just that. Its a rigid with no-plus tires (a good thing) and only like 280$ with surprisingly decent fitment. If he blows through that, then just buy him the Spawn later and sell the GT for 150$ and only be out a hundred or so. if you want to him into it, you'll have to invest soon. By that I mean the time developing skills, building the home-ramps/skinnys, doing some skate park stuff etc. My kid got mainly hooked by doing Mom shuttles and not the XC slogs. Forget the climbing until later and he's into it. Right now its 100% fun. Think of it like Skiing...no one takes their kid XC skiiing to get them into the sport. Downhill .
> 
> The flip side is just buy the Spawn and become a MTB family. That's what we did. No questions asked, we ride...assuming they are fun/positive rides. Money is a funny thing. Lots of people choke on the cost of a nice kids bike yet have 2 iPads (not saying you do) that their kids spend ridiculous amount of time on (freaking Apple man...). Skip/sell that shite, spend it on a sick bike and ride it till the wheels fall off .
> 
> We love that Spawn.


I hadn't really thought about doing shuttles - it isn't the easiest thing to do in our neck of the woods. But if I could get my wife to join us there are a few options that come to mind. Thanks for the idea!

We have to get the bike sorted out first though. The one he is riding now is a singlespeed with only a rear brake. The ride we did last weekend was challenging both from a gearing and a braking perspective - on top of everything else our trails were wet. On the bright side, things can really only get better from there!

Fortunately, my wife is also a mountain biker, so our goal is to do this as a family. Someday, hopefully my daughter will too; but for now, she spends her life at gymnastics practice.


----------



## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> I hadn't really thought about doing shuttles - it isn't the easiest thing to do in our neck of the woods. But if I could get my wife to join us there are a few options that come to mind. Thanks for the idea!


Try to make it happen. Too late for this year, but any lift served available near you? Most places have some beginner trails now. Get them hooked on the down and the up will come with time.

Could also give the TowWhee a shot: https://towwhee.com/


----------



## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

A lot of shops near trails will provide shuttles or know of a service. It often doesn't take 5 long runs as the new kids get pooped out pretty quickly. I love being on the uplift but without a FS it can be a little rough on a kid, might suck if there is no fork at least (where we are at it would). The other side is that uplift parks often rent really nice FS 20" bikes for kids and the requisite anti-gnar padding. Just getting a shop to shuttle you once or twice a week (or more!) would be worth the money tho. Even taxi's do it around here.


----------



## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

GSJ1973 said:


> I've coached our kids local riding group (80 kids this season) since 2009 and our experience is a bit different. In fact we have a "bike library" fleet of donated program modified/lighter bikes to get the lower income kids off their crappy 30+ pound bikes and onto higher quality bikes that are lighter. Dropping 5 pounds and proper gearing has been huge for kids performance. And the kids with PLUS tires are the ones grouped together off the back. But we live/ride in the Rocky Mountains at elevation (6000 ft) so YMMV.


I didn't mention gearing, and I didn't say the heavier bikes were crappy. That is a whole different story. Honestly crappy low end, often department store bikes, are bad no matter what they weigh or how they are geared. They are just as bad for kids as they are for adults trying to hit real trails. Honestly, they are quite dangerous if you really try to push them.

Other than the plus bike thing, I'm betting that there is more in common about what we are experiencing than there is different.

I commend you for working with our youth and keeping them on safe bikes.


----------



## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

> The reason you care so much about weight is because you've been brainwashed by marketing to think it matters. It doesn't matter. If you don't believe that, I have a friend who would absolutely drop you and leave you behind, even though he's 6'7" and rides a single speed bike that weighs 35+ pounds.


I've got an equivalent, it even has gears and the seat post can be extended to pedal height ... I haven't even weighed it ... and I'm pretty certain someone somewhere is unfit enough I could drop them on it...

However when I ride it round a fairly flat local XCish trail centre it absolutely kills me and the kid can and does drop me on most climbs after the 2nd or 3rd one...

At the end of a short 15 mile loop I'm stuffed... to be honest I'm pretty stuffed half way round to the point where I don't even want to do a short 200' climb to session the DH jumps.

This is partly deliberate ... the point of sticking some gears and brakes on the bike was because if I go round with Jnr on one of my much lighter bikes I don't get much if any meaningful exercise.

I can ride on my really light XC bike.. my 130mm trail bike or my 160mm enduro bikes and the carbon XC HT might be a bit faster but at the end I'm not really much more tired on the 160mm Enduro .... both I'd be raging to do another lap. (Though in practice I'd might run out of time on the trail or enduro bikes because I'd have got to the fun parts and sessioned them)

The extra weight of the steel jump bike though is very significant... and I doubt its close to 1/3rd my bodyweight... but the difference between that and the other bikes is HUGE... when even small amounts of climbing are involved.

I doubt your 6'7" friend weighs less than 100lbs... 
So there is obviously some threshold ... my XC bike is perhaps 1/7th of my weight... and my Enduro perhaps getting towards 1/5th.... but just a rough guess the steel one is 1/4 or 1/3rd... ???


----------



## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> Great discussion. I really hope that I reach the day where my son and I are doing 20 mile rides with 4K feet of climbing - that would be a dream come true. We are going to look around at what is available locally and see what fits him. I hadn't seen those Spawn bikes before. Honestly, if he really took to the sport I would consider getting one of those at some point - they look awesome. In the meantime though, *I just want to get him out riding the trails with me, preferably going a little further and riding a little better each time.*


That's exactly how we started out.... and based on what seems conventional wisdom doing 20 miles and 4k of ascent was never planned.
(Even the first time he did it it wasn't the plan... it was planned to do half that but he did the climb then managed to break a pedal at the top... so the descent was not what he'd hoped for... we limped back to the car and tent and he (and his friend who also had to limp back with us) both wanted to do it again "properly"

Although both race now the only training they ever did was just going out riding trails with Dad's.... and the racing is somewhat just incidental.. in fact mine has given up XC this year because it clashes with his DH races...

When we started he had just got a 20" rigid... not the lightest but far from the heaviest.
When we switched to his lighter 24" HT the difference was HUGE... on our not very hilly local loop he basically went from a 10mile loop to 2 ... 
When he tried the same loop on his heavier FS with heavy wheels he slipped back to 1 loop, then we switched the wheels and he'd manage 2. (By that time he was bigger)

My own experience is you kinda need to keep up with the bikes according to how they are doing... riding a heavy bike on the flat isn't too bad... climbing another matter.

Either way though kids progress so quickly... I never really had the dream of 20 miles and 4k of climbs..(to be honest I don't think I could have done that alone when we started) it was always just a bit further or a bit more climbing etc. but don't be afraid of rests etc. looking back over my phone photo's our photo's from rest stops are great to look back...

Now though its really split up... since he got into racing DH we have both trail days and DH practice days. It's a bit challenging with a kid to keep the pedal days as he'd rather session DH at the moment... if asked but when we do it we have a great time - I just have to get him out and pedalling not straight to a bike park.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

For my older kid (6) proper gearing and decent tires seemed to matter more than a suspension fork. I actually geared the (20" wheel) bike pretty low - 28t ring in the front and 11-34 cassette. It's hilariously low by adult standards, and he spins out over about 12mph. But for mountain biking, it's great - because he always has a low enough gear to climb at the pace he wants to. If he starts wanting to be pedaling fast on the DH, that's a great problem to have and we'll cross that bridge when/if we come to it. 

I see kids bikes with like 34x28 as their lowest gear and wonder WTF the manufacturer was thinking. Of course they can't get up any hills...

-Walt


----------



## robbnj (Jul 19, 2013)

Just a thought on the circular argument about bike weight: Y'all are arguing apples and oranges.

Think about the dichotomy: 
"Get out and exercise and get in shape by riding a bike."
"Get the lightest bike you possibly can afford to make riding easier."

Is that like using balloons to bench press because weights are heavy? Only jogging downhill because it takes less effort?

Indeed asked with tongue-somewhat-in-cheek, but really just pointing out there are no absolutes and answers have to be tailored to the question to be "correct". It's pretty easy to see the people who post on forums who are true keyboard warriors who know a lot, but don't know how to apply it and REALLY don't know what it is that they don't know.
People like that can make a person not want to get into a hobby at all. Heck, it was a very short time ago that someone told me aluminum has a shelf life...

Weight means nothing? Ridiculous (in certain circumstances)
Weight means everything? Ridiculous (in certain circumstances)
Suspension is absolutely mandatory? Ridiculous (see above)

And so on.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

robbnj said:


> Just a thought on the circular argument about bike weight: Y'all are arguing apples and oranges.
> 
> Think about the dichotomy:
> "Get out and exercise and get in shape by riding a bike."
> "Get the lightest bike you possibly can afford to make riding easier."


For me those two are mostly in sync:
- I ride with my 3.5yo (sometimes towing a 50+lbs of bike trailer w/ his 1.5yo brother behind) 
- We ride until he's tired or stops having fun
- If I get my kids lighter bikes, hopefully they'll ride longer / further before they get tired
- If I get my kids bikes with decent air forks for riding trails (haven't yet since we're just at 14"), maybe they'll have fun longer (roots are one of the big unfun things on trails here)
- If they ride longer / further, that means I get out ride longer / further
- If I ride longer / further, then I get a better workout

If I can only get 1 bike each for my kids, I'll probably opt for the most lightweight bike I can get with a suspension fork once they're big enough for 20" (maybe at 16").

If I can convince my wife to let me (and find space in the garage), I'll probably get them more than 1 each and let them pick which they want to ride based on where we're riding.

I'll also be the first to admit that I'm much better at shopping and math than I am at riding, but I'm trying to figure it all out.

We're in Michigan and unlikely to visit anywhere like Whistler in the foreseeable future, but my kids still get excited (and I'm still pretty nervous) riding off 1' ramps in the backyard. At some point they'll realize that I don't know much compared to the riders we watch together on YouTube, but for now I'm at least able to stay far enough ahead of them in skill that they haven't figured out that I'm kind of lame.


----------



## CeUnit (Jul 9, 2014)

TimTucker said:


> At some point they'll realize that I don't know much compared to the riders we watch together on YouTube, but for now I'm at least able to stay far enough ahead of them in skill that they haven't figured out that I'm kind of lame.


You sound like a pretty cool dad to me. The fact you're thinking about this stuff and willing to get out there and spend quality time with them is awesome. 
Regardless of how good you are, the odds of your offspring out-riding you are high


----------



## cajunpita (Oct 30, 2018)

rockcrusher said:


> See my thread about riding with kids regarding tires.


@Rockcrusher, I searched for your thread and came up empty-handed. Do remember the title of your post? I'd also appreciate you sending me the link to the thread.

Thanks!


----------

