# A problem with my rohloff



## richdirector (Apr 25, 2007)

Recently my rohloff has started to drag - its pretty new in the 70000 range but it feels like the seals are dragging. When I spin the wheel and freewheel the wheel slows and stops in about 10 revolutions (in the air) on the trail I dont really notice it. But I think it must be seal as if I lift the rear wheel then pedal backwards the wheel starts moving backwards.

When pedaling the hub still feels efficient but there is a nag in my brain I need to sort out.

----
One thought I had is to send it back to distributor and get it converted to disc (it is a CC version) this will mean a new flange? so it might cure the problem.

Anybody had this problem?


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## bsdc (May 1, 2006)

About how many miles are on the hub?


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## jakko (May 21, 2007)

mine is about 74000 range , and 10000km.

It does the same thing , and it is NORMAL !!!!
No probrem so far .

Have a good ride !!!


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

yes, it is nomal for the cranks to turn when wheeling the bike, and it mentions it in the manual too. Similarly with pedalling backwards and the wheel moving. If you think it is worse than normal take it to the lbs or a friend and compare them.


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## richdirector (Apr 25, 2007)

has only about 4000km on it - just seems to be worse - and a good excuse to trade up to a disc version. My 69er has xtr disc fronts but xtr rim brakes back and the different feel to them is very distracting.


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## bsdc (May 1, 2006)

It does seem that your "problems" are simply a normal Rohloff hub. The only thing odd is that you seem to be reporting that it suddenly got worse. I would do an oil change (another benefit of a disc conversion) and see how it's running after that. 

I have found that the longer I ride my Rohloff the more I like it. The problem comes when I ride something else. Other hubs, especially my Alfine, feel so smooth and efficient. When I get back on my Rohloff it feels like a hub full of sand. 

I was recently without my Rohloff because my bike needed repairs. That put me on my HT with Alfine. Wow! It was so smooth and fast. I was able to keep up with riders I usually have trouble with. When I got my Rohloff back, I found myself struggling again. Now I'm not sure if it was just me having a good or bad day, the inefficiency of a FS bike, or the inefficiency of the Rohloff, but I plan to find out. I'm getting some parts so I can put my Alfine on my FS bike. I may go back and forth a few times and see if there is a real difference.


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## fokof (Apr 24, 2006)

Mine is doin that too a little bit.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

bsdc said:


> It does seem that your "problems" are simply a normal Rohloff hub. The only thing odd is that you seem to be reporting that it suddenly got worse. I would do an oil change (another benefit of a disc conversion) and see how it's running after that.
> 
> I have found that the longer I ride my Rohloff the more I like it. The problem comes when I ride something else. Other hubs, especially my Alfine, feel so smooth and efficient. When I get back on my Rohloff it feels like a hub full of sand.
> 
> I was recently without my Rohloff because my bike needed repairs. That put me on my HT with Alfine. Wow! It was so smooth and fast. I was able to keep up with riders I usually have trouble with. When I got my Rohloff back, I found myself struggling again. Now I'm not sure if it was just me having a good or bad day, the inefficiency of a FS bike, or the inefficiency of the Rohloff, but I plan to find out. I'm getting some parts so I can put my Alfine on my FS bike. I may go back and forth a few times and see if there is a real difference.


When my Rohloff went in for service with only 700 documented miles on it, (54XXX), ( I believe it had a defective axle which caused the shifting problems, that they would not warranty) I reinstalled my derailleurs and ancient Hugi FreeRide hub back on my Bionicon. Much, much more efficient, and like you said, no longer felt like a hub full of sand with whirring at the pedals and all the resistance of running a gearbox.

The Rohloff came back with a hefty expensive repair bill, and a used rebuilt gearbox, and went up for sale, never to be reinstalled on my Bionicon. A very inefficient hub, if you ride in mountains. Sand in the gearbox is a good way to describe it, it's a drag.


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## bsdc (May 1, 2006)

RandyBoy said:


> When my Rohloff went in for service with only 700 documented miles on it, (54XXX), ( I believe it had a defective axle which caused the shifting problems, that they would not warranty) I reinstalled my derailleurs and ancient Hugi FreeRide hub back on my Bionicon. Much, much more efficient, and like you said, no longer felt like a hub full of sand with whirring at the pedals and all the resistance of running a gearbox.
> 
> The Rohloff came back with a hefty expensive repair bill, and a used rebuilt gearbox, and went up for sale, never to be reinstalled on my Bionicon. A very inefficient hub, if you ride in mountains. Sand in the gearbox is a good way to describe it, it's a drag.


Maybe so. I'm still experimenting. One thing that has come to my attention is the friction of the chain wrapping around the pullies of a chain tensioner or derailleur. I noticed this when I took my Alfine off my HT and put it on my FS bike. The Alfine on the HT spun almost effortlessly, like a SS. The Alfine on the FS bike with a chain tensioner felt like a derailleur bike. The other thing I noticed was the closer chainring to cog ratio of the Afline vs. the Rohloff reduces pedal induced bobbing significantly.

I think I will find Nirvana in an Alfine 11 equipped Milk Money. Imagine 11 evenly spaced gears, lined up neatly in a row, gently bathed in oil, on a full suspension bike, that requires no chain tensioner, has just enough cush to soften the trails, and a pedaling efficiency just this side of a singlespeed hardtail.

Or maybe this is Nirvana:


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

bsdc said:


> Maybe so. I'm still experimenting. One thing that has come to my attention is the friction of the chain wrapping around the pullies of a chain tensioner or derailleur. I noticed this when I took my Alfine off my HT and put it on my FS bike. The Alfine on the HT spun almost effortlessly, like a SS. The Alfine on the FS bike with a chain tensioner felt like a derailleur bike. The other thing I noticed was the closer chainring to cog ratio of the Afline vs. the Rohloff reduces pedal induced bobbing significantly.
> 
> I think I will find Nirvana in an Alfine 11 equipped Milk Money. Imagine 11 evenly spaced gears, lined up neatly in a row, gently bathed in oil, on a full suspension bike, that requires no chain tensioner, has just enough cush to soften the trails, and a pedaling efficiency just this side of a singlespeed hardtail.


Build a better drivetrain, they will come running.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

bsdc said:


> Maybe so. I'm still experimenting. One thing that has come to my attention is the friction of the chain wrapping around the pullies of a chain tensioner or derailleur. I noticed this when I took my Alfine off my HT and put it on my FS bike. The Alfine on the HT spun almost effortlessly, like a SS. The Alfine on the FS bike with a chain tensioner felt like a derailleur bike. The other thing I noticed was the closer chainring to cog ratio of the Afline vs. the Rohloff reduces pedal induced bobbing significantly.
> 
> I think I will find Nirvana in an Alfine 11 equipped Milk Money. Imagine 11 evenly spaced gears, lined up neatly in a row, gently bathed in oil, on a full suspension bike, that requires no chain tensioner, has just enough cush to soften the trails, and a pedaling efficiency just this side of a singlespeed hardtail.
> 
> Or maybe this is Nirvana:


In a comparison of derailleur geared to a Rohloff, as in my example, this is a non issuefor increased drag on the drivetrain ... as both drives on my full suspension bike were using a derailleur as a chain tensioner.

The Rohloff, running the gearbox through oil, through a bunch of gears, through a planetary gear drive, was a huge drag, especially when climbing in gears 3, 5, and 6.


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## richdirector (Apr 25, 2007)

I converted it to disc now and having side replaced and new oil it is running perfect again. And nice to brake even .......


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

bsdc said:


> It does seem that your "problems" are simply a normal Rohloff hub. The only thing odd is that you seem to be reporting that it suddenly got worse. I would do an oil change (another benefit of a disc conversion) and see how it's running after that.
> 
> I have found that the longer I ride my Rohloff the more I like it. The problem comes when I ride something else. Other hubs, especially my Alfine, feel so smooth and efficient. When I get back on my Rohloff it feels like a hub full of sand.
> 
> I was recently without my Rohloff because my bike needed repairs. That put me on my HT with Alfine. Wow! It was so smooth and fast. I was able to keep up with riders I usually have trouble with. When I got my Rohloff back, I found myself struggling again. Now I'm not sure if it was just me having a good or bad day, the inefficiency of a FS bike, or the inefficiency of the Rohloff, but I plan to find out. I'm getting some parts so I can put my Alfine on my FS bike. I may go back and forth a few times and see if there is a real difference.


I had no problem finding out... spend the money on a Garmin Edge 305 and log every ride you do... then look at the times on a Rohloff going up some sustained vertical climbing, say 1000 meters in 10 km... the timer doesn't lie, nor does the heart rate monitor, compared to a basic DT Swiss or Hadley 9 speed or a single speed hub. 10 to 13% slower, in my tests, documented numerous times.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

RandyBoy said:


> I had no problem finding out... spend the money on a Garmin Edge 305 and log every ride you do... then look at the times on a Rohloff going up some sustained vertical climbing, say 1000 meters in 10 km... the timer doesn't lie, nor does the heart rate monitor, compared to a basic DT Swiss or Hadley 9 speed or a single speed hub. 10 to 13% slower, in my tests, documented numerous times.


I'm interested in hearing more on the detail, just out of curiousity...

that was on the same/similar bike?
was that on road or off?
what wheel/tyre size for both?

Curious as I am about 10min faster over 1 hr on my trails on a rohloff 29er HT, than my older FS 26er deraillieured...of courese there is more going on there than just the rohloff.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> When my Rohloff went in for service with only 700 documented miles on it, (54XXX), ( I believe it had a defective axle which caused the shifting problems, that they would not warranty) I reinstalled my derailleurs and ancient Hugi FreeRide hub back on my Bionicon. Much, much more efficient, and like you said, no longer felt like a hub full of sand with whirring at the pedals and all the resistance of running a gearbox.


To be clear Randyboy is beating a dead horse one more time...:madman: He bought a used hub which Rohloff clearly doesn't warranty for the second owner. He had a problem that is well known to occur in new Rohloffs if you do more than a few minutes of research. About 1% of young hubs need to go back to Rohloff for adjustment. This is free and covered under warranty - unless you managed to void the warranty - for example by buying a used hub.

He's mad because he ended up with a problem buying a used bike part from a stranger. That's not Rohloff's fault. It's the buyer's fault.

If you want to save $$ and buy stuff used accept there is a reason used items cost less than full MSRP of a new item....one reason is wear, another is typically you don't get a warranty.

If you can't accept that then only buy new items...:nono:


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

finch2 said:


> I'm interested in hearing more on the detail, just out of curiousity...
> 
> that was on the same/similar bike?
> was that on road or off?
> ...


One bike, three different hubs, same tire in rear, tubed every time. Bionicon Edison hydroformed in XL, with a Schwalbe Nobby Nic in the rear, and a Big Betty up front.

Run with a Rohloff throughaxle disc brake, a Hugi FR hub, and a Hadley hub. aprox 1800 verticle feet in 3.8 miles, best time ever on the Rohloff , around 55.40, on the Hugi FR 50:05, on the Hadley, I believe 50:12.

The Rohloff is the only hub that has ever given me leg cramps while riding, not once with the Hugi or the Hadley hub.

Going to my Niner AIR9 hardtail with a DT Swiss 240S hub on Stans' Flows and tubeless with a heavy CST Caballero 29x 2.25 wire bead has gotten my time into 45:20 to 45:30, exact same climb.

The Rohloff was a boat anchor, in my case. Run gears through an oil bath is a huge suck on the legs, was my conclusion. YMMV, but for around here, a cassetted hub for gears is the best value going. An automotive 5 speed gear box, for comparison, has a loss of about 15 to 19% of the crank rated horsepower to the wheel.


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

I think you're just getting stronger, hence your times decrease.

I've ridden my hub over 3yrs now, with the same guys I've always ridden with. I still arrive at the top of the hill, in the same approximate order relative to the other riders, as I always have. I've never felt like it holds me back.

The relative weight and cost of the Rohloff are legitimate concerns compared with derailers. Efficiency, on the other hand, is subjectively comparable between the two systems. YMMV.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

Is that on road or off? Not debating the efficiency or weight, as for sure I'd like it to be perfect  I suppose in my case at least both of those things are negligable in relation to off road tyre drag, loose terrain and weight of a mtb. Truthfully I can't say I have noticed any efficieny drag off road in the subjective sense. I hear the Bionicon is weighty, so the rohloff may have just pushed it past the barrier for you. Also, if you hub was faulty that may have contributed. If I was a competitive racer I may look twice at the rohloff, but since my newer bike is faster than the old conventional drive train bike I am happy. My old bike was the same weight with same tyres. The differences were in wheel size and the new bike is a hardtail with the rohloff.


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## fokof (Apr 24, 2006)

A Rolhoff is 2% less efficient in average than a 27 speed Shimano drivetrain.

Source ; http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf

That would be 72 seconds on an 1 hour ride. 
A trouble free drivetrain against 2% , I can live with that ......


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

swift said:


> I think you're just getting stronger, hence your times decrease.
> 
> I've ridden my hub over 3yrs now, with the same guys I've always ridden with. I still arrive at the top of the hill, in the same approximate order relative to the other riders, as I always have. I've never felt like it holds me back.
> 
> The relative weight and cost of the Rohloff are legitimate concerns compared with derailers. Efficiency, on the other hand, is subjectively comparable between the two systems. YMMV.


Unlikely, the time frame was all within 7 days for the Bionicon Edison. The AIR 9 rigid has consistently, at 26 pounds versus 34 pounds for the single pivot Bionicon, been the fastest climber I own, due to it's efficiency when I stand and mash . I've not gotten any faster or stronger, or practiced /trained any more than I did before.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

fokof said:


> A Rolhoff is 2% less efficient in average than a 27 speed Shimano drivetrain.
> 
> Source ; http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf
> 
> ...


I'm telling you that what happens in the lab, versus in the real world against the clock, is considerably different, in my experience. And that in climbing gears 1-7 on a Rohloff, the real world loss in effficiency, where I ride in the San Gabriels, is on the order of a 10 to 13% loss in efficiency, on the particular hub I had, which had not even 400 documented miles on it when I bought it, and was confirmed by Neil at Rohloff USA as looking "brand new" inside. Gears 3, 5, 6 and 7 in my hub, were a total drag to pedal in. That leaves 1,2 and 4 as being a little bit better. In all cases, due to having a full suspension rear end, the chain was run through a derailleur for chain tension. The test was as Apples to Apples as could be made.

The results of your test is a 2% loss averaged over all 14 gears. I never rode in gears 12,13 or 14 on my Rohloff, and those were some of the most efficient gears, right behind 11th gear. Running in gears 1-7 is like having a 4x4 and running all the power through a transfer case in a car, to drop the gearing so you can crawl. The preferred usage is in gears 8 through 14, like normal gears on a car.

Having a practically "brand new" hub replaced with a remanufactured one of unknown mileage and wear, does not sit well with me at all. If your transmission failed in 400 mile, would you rather have a new replacement transmission put in your car, or a remanufactured transmission?


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

finch2 said:


> Is that on road or off? Not debating the efficiency or weight, as for sure I'd like it to be perfect  I suppose in my case at least both of those things are negligable in relation to off road tyre drag, loose terrain and weight of a mtb. Truthfully I can't say I have noticed any efficieny drag off road in the subjective sense. I hear the Bionicon is weighty, so the rohloff may have just pushed it past the barrier for you. Also, if you hub was faulty that may have contributed. If I was a competitive racer I may look twice at the rohloff, but since my newer bike is faster than the old conventional drive train bike I am happy. My old bike was the same weight with same tyres. The differences were in wheel size and the new bike is a hardtail with the rohloff.


My Rohloff added around 1.5 to 2 pounds to my Bionicon XL Edison. At 6'5" and 240 pounds wet riding weight, I'll let you decide how significant the weight increase was. The trails and fire roads around Los Angeles are steep, there's grades that exceed 22%, 15% grades are quite common. 5 to 600 vertical feet per mile traveled is average, plenty of flat spots to rest a little while climbing before continuing the grind upwards.

I am glad that it's worked out well for you, I just think that people need to be aware, before spending that kind of money on a Rohloff, that you might want to demo ride one on some good extended single track and dirt road climbs where gears 1 through 7 come in to play for the whole climb, before putting your money down. If you are happy after a couple of rides, by all means, go for it. For me, the Rohloff didn't deliver as promised.


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

Sorry to hear things didn't work out for you. My experience with the Rohloff is on the other end of the spectrum from what you report. 

I just did a super-tech 6ish mile climb last night with 4 friends who all ride derailers. They're all strong riders and it turns out that I was the one waiting on them at the top.

My experience with the Rohloff has been good and I'll never put another derailer on any mt. bike I own.

When it comes to new vs. remanufactured, I have no problem with remanufactured. It simply means someone has gone through it, replaced anything worn beyon tolerance and retained everything still within tolernace. I've rebuilt car engines and transmissions that have gone on to serve me well for hundreds of thousands of miles following my efforts. "Reduce, reuse, recycle."


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

I've read a few threads where your dissatisfied with Rohloff for various reason. I think had you bought one new from a reputable dealer things may have turned out differently. I understand your concern about efficiency. There are trade offs with a Rohloff. I recently rode my friends Specialized stump jumper and it shifted seamlessly and was so easy to climb with compared to my Rohloff Pugsley. Would I give up my bike for his ? Not in a million years. I don't race, and I don't compete against others or myself. I just ride. In that context I could never go back to derailleurs. I love my Rohloff. Best upgrade I did besides my Magura Gustav's.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

RandyBoy said:


> My Rohloff added around 1.5 to 2 pounds to my Bionicon XL Edison. At 6'5" and 240 pounds wet riding weight, I'll let you decide how significant the weight increase was. The trails and fire roads around Los Angeles are steep, there's grades that exceed 22%, 15% grades are quite common. 5 to 600 vertical feet per mile traveled is average, plenty of flat spots to rest a little while climbing before continuing the grind upwards.
> 
> I am glad that it's worked out well for you, I just think that people need to be aware, before spending that kind of money on a Rohloff, that you might want to demo ride one on some good extended single track and dirt road climbs where gears 1 through 7 come in to play for the whole climb, before putting your money down. If you are happy after a couple of rides, by all means, go for it. For me, the Rohloff didn't deliver as promised.


I agree that the rohloff is incredibly expensive and those not sure about it should definintely try it out first. Like anything costly. I believe that you haven't had the best experience with yours and I'd feel the same as you in your case. All I can say is mine has been great. I'm not ultra competitive but I definitely wouldn't be happy if I could feel the drag or notice the setup I have being significantly slower. My terrain doesn't sound dissimilar to yours either, where I have to choose my routes to make sure the gradients and surfaces are rideable. My driveway is 1 km long, and an average of 20% reaching more than 33% in one spot but at least it is sealed. I have to ride that everytime I get out of the house. Any entry point to a ride here involves 300m climbs to the ridgetop over 1-2 kms off road, after which there are more hills. I don't class a trail as a steep climb unless I am in gear 3 or below, and that is with a 36t ring. So....I am actually favouring the rohloff on the steep technical stuff so far.


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