# My Ebike experience



## sml-2727 (Nov 16, 2013)

So I was at the LBS browsing all the bike and saw my first ebike, the turbo levo from specialized, I told the dealer I gotta test ride that and he was more than helpful with giving me a test ride. He powerd it up told me about the three settings and off I went....The smile on my face must of been enough, I was amazed buy the power, but still have to pedal. Now im hooked, it would make a great second bike.
Well the also had a new turbo levo fatbike, with 5 inch tires. I took that out next, the shop had this steep grassy hill and I zipped right up it, bike was more agile than I though it would be for being 52lbs!. Im sure though in the slippery snow it would be a blast to ride.
So to sum it up, a ebike is on my list of bikes I want now, I dont care what the haters think, once you try one, your going to love it


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Got a legal place to ride ?


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

leeboh said:


> Got a legal place to ride ?


 OHV, Rails to Trails, grocery getter, commuting to work!


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Good to hear. I think the e bikes are a great tool for the would be, cautious commuter. Maybe too long of a distance, big hills. Also for those wanting to go car light/car less. Think about a cargo bike for the parent(s) that can haul kids and groceries. Got some places for racks/bags? They also make some slick fat bike tires too.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

sml-2727 said:


> So to sum it up, a ebike is on my list of bikes I want now, I dont care what the haters think, once you try one, your going to love it


I have tried one. I demoed a S-Works Turbo Levo from my friend's shop. I can see how it would be fun (or useful) on the right trails. That doesn't mean I think it's the same as a mountain bike, or that it belongs on all the same trails.


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## sml-2727 (Nov 16, 2013)

leeboh said:


> Got a legal place to ride ?


Its a bicycle, so yeah everywhere I ride.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

sml-2727 said:


> Its a bicycle, so yeah everywhere I ride.


have you check your states laws regarding using e-bikes on trails? Many states actually prohibit them on trails. Some have very specific verbage and some very non specific. City, county and state parks and trails may all have different regulations regarding the use of these items on public trails. It would be beneficial to ensure you can use an e-mountain bike on your usual trails before dropping the coin on one. The bike shop will probably not educate you on the legality of using the bike in your locale as they want to sell an expensive toy but that certainly won't exclude you from angering people if they aren't permitted on your local trails but you use it there. As they say ignorance of the law is no excuse in breaking the law.

It's a lot of cash to not be able to use it on your local favorites.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm pretty sure they are illegal in PA state parks, but maybe that has changed.

-Walt


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

sml-2727 said:


> Its a bicycle, so yeah everywhere I ride.


I really don't mean this in a snarky way but I beg to differ.

_bi·cy·cle
ˈbīsək(ə)l/
noun
1.
a vehicle composed of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, propelled by pedals and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel.
synonyms:	bike, cycle, two-wheeler, mountain bike, ten-speed, racing bike, recumbent, fixie; _

It's a nice rig but it's not a bicycle.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

evasive said:


> I have tried one. I demoed a S-Works Turbo Levo from my friend's shop. I can see how it would be fun (or useful) on the right trails. That doesn't mean I think it's the same as a mountain bike, or that it belongs on all the same trails.


I think it is certainly a mountain bike. It certainly has more in common with modern bikes than it does with my first mountain bike in 1989.

Where does a rational person draw the line? I have a Levo and by no measure is it any different out on a trail than whatever you ride happens to be. It makes my riding more efficient. It doesn't have a "throttle". If you are on a bike, then you are leveraging mechanical advantage compared with running and really have no moral high ground. If you are taking advantage of any technology besides a wooden, hardtail single-speed with slick tires, then even less so.

What is the problem?

When did mountain bikers who fought so hard to be accepted on horse trails become such tools? (Not you, *evasive*. I only read your one post. You may very well be reasonable.)

I just stepped out of a time machine from the early 90s and feel like I am in bizzaro world.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

daven007 said:


> Where does a rational person draw the line?


Motor/No motor is pretty straightforward for most people. Stick a motor on a bicycle and it's no longer a bicycle. Ebikes are a new class of vehicle, it's not that complicated.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Harryman said:


> Motor/No motor is pretty straightforward for most people. Stick a motor on a bicycle and it's no longer a bicycle. Ebikes are a new class of vehicle, it's not that complicated.


You see no difference between a bike with a throttle and a bike that delivers limited power based upon torque sensed from pedaling?

Suspension on bikes has increased average speeds on trails more than a pedelec motor ever could.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Nope. Power is power. If I make a 10,000w bike that only goes when I turn the pedals, and I'm putting in 100W, that's going to go as fast as 10,100w will go. 

If, on the other hand, I make 250w, then I'll go as fast as 250w will let me.

It could have a throttle, or no throttle, or whatever. The end result of power is speed, and more power means more speed. So to me, it's really not relevant. I'd rather have 250W electric motos with no pedals at all on the trail than 1000w (human+motor) "assist" bikes. 

The pedals don't matter. The power does.

-Walt


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Walt said:


> Nope. Power is power. If I make a 10,000w bike that only goes when I turn the pedals, and I'm putting in 100W, that's going to go as fast as 10,100w will go.
> 
> If, on the other hand, I make 250w, then I'll go as fast as 250w will let me.
> 
> ...


The only by product of power that seems to matter is speed, correct?

My bike has a 250w motor and assist starts cutting out at 18mph. That doesn't mean that you can ride up a rocky, twisty, single track at 18mph. Not even close. It just means that the level of effort to climb that hill can be lower if you crank the assist high enough.

I think that a pedelec bike with zero assist beyond a certain speed is perfectly fine out on trails.

I leave my assist at 10 to 20 percent when riding with unassisted riders. The guys I ride with are pretty hardcore. We will crest a hill-with me chasing- and our heart rates will be similar. They recover more quickly. It's pretty fascinating.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Good on ya, enjoy the less effort/higher speed on motorized trails. 

-Walt


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

daven007 said:


> You see no difference between a bike with a throttle and a bike that delivers limited power based upon torque sensed from pedaling?
> 
> Suspension on bikes has increased average speeds on trails more than a pedelec motor ever could.


Nope, you can ghost pedal on a PAS bike and pedal while using a throttle, how you engage a switch to send power to the motor is irrelevant to me. The push behind PAS only is to make ebikes blend in better IMO. I'm a fan of ebikes btw, I just dont buy into the spin that they are bicycles and should get a blanket pass on non motorized trails, especially since your 250w emtb has only a third of the power of those we will see on the market in the coming years.

Have fun with your new sport, ride it where it's legal. If you thought the struggles we had back in the day for access are over you are mistaken and ebikes only give those who hate mountain bikes more ammunition.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Harryman said:


> Nope, you can ghost pedal on a PAS bike and pedal while using a throttle, how you engage a switch to send power to the motor is irrelevant to me. The push behind PAS only is to make ebikes blend in better IMO. I'm a fan of ebikes btw, I just dont buy into the spin that they are bicycles and should get a blanket pass on non motorized trails, especially since your 250w emtb has only a third of the power of those we will see on the market in the coming years.
> 
> Have fun with your new sport, ride it where it's legal. If you thought the struggles we had back in the day for access are over you are mistaken and ebikes only give those who hate mountain bikes more ammunition.


Where I live there are trails that have already been approved for "low speed" pedelec bikes. The real problem isn't those bikes. The real battle is between horses and prohibited bikers (on horse/human trails). The vast majority are NOT riding eBikes.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Awesome. Enjoy those trails.

-Walt


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Daven, the difference between the ebikes you describe as low threat, and the ebikes you consider a source of conflict, is getting smaller every day. An $80 dongle and $100 throttle kit easily remove speed limitations and the requirement to pedal. The throttles can be discreet push buttons which are virtually invisible. 

Ultimately one of two things will happen:

All ebikes will be banned 
All bikes will be banned

There can be no in between, since there is no way to police wattage limits, speed cutoff limits, and pedal assist only.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Procter said:


> Daven, the difference between the ebikes you describe as low threat, and the ebikes you consider a source of conflict, is getting smaller every day. An $80 dongle and $100 throttle kit easily remove speed limitations and the requirement to pedal. The throttles can be discreet push buttons which are virtually invisible.
> 
> Ultimately one of two things will happen:
> 
> ...


I understand the concern. I never looked at it that way because I bought into the value proposition of my bike as "mildly enhanced" and have no intention to upset the mood out on the trails.

All it takes is one idiot, I guess. I understand the points you guys are making. I'm the first guy to help self-police the knuckleheads.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

So what is a "car" with no "engine"


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## sml-2727 (Nov 16, 2013)

Wow lots of Trolls in the ebike forum and if I was to cut my legs off the bike would go nowhere, I still need to pedal to make it move. Why cant people accept this? have we gone back in time and have segregation all over again? Why all the hate? All I wanna do is have some fun for F#CKS sake.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

NEPMTBA said:


> So what is a "car" with no "engine"


2 tons of scrap metal?


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## sml-2727 (Nov 16, 2013)

This is what I found out about parks in my area, nowhere does it mention anything about ebikes 
http://ecode360.com/documents/AL1955/source/LF867680.pdf


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

sml-2727 said:


> This is what I found out about parks in my area, nowhere does it mention anything about ebikes
> http://ecode360.com/documents/AL1955/source/LF867680.pdf


In California, the key is having certain classes of low-power, pedelec bikes NOT be classified as "motor vehicles". They have speed and power restrictions, and do not require a license. It is acknowledgement that there is a middle ground between what I am hearing people concerned about- basically electric motorcycles- and simply a "more sophisticated bike. Especially as meaningful regen starts to be part of the picture.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

sml-2727 said:


> This is what I found out about parks in my area, nowhere does it mention anything about ebikes
> http://ecode360.com/documents/AL1955/source/LF867680.pdf


PA state law is like most, which regulates where you can ride them on state roadways and bike lanes/paths. They leave local access up to local agencies.

http://www.bicycleaccess-pa.org/newsite/News & Digest - November 2014.pdf

They are not defined as a Motor Vehicle at the state DOT level, which is a specific legal distinction, but they could likely be considered motorized which is where it gets confusing. Like in the document you linked to:



> Operating any motorized conveyance including but not
> limited to snowmobiles, motor boats, all terrain vehicles,
> motorcycles, or motor scooters except that street licensed
> vehicles may be used in parking lots, or roads open to
> traffic.


It might be worth your while to get it clarified with your County Parks dept. They likely won't care, but better to know before hand.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

sml-2727 said:


> Wow lots of Trolls in the ebike forum


Actually you're on a mountain bike forum, if you recall. All I see is concerned mountain bikers making reasonable arguments, legitimately fearing for the future of their sport. When you make a troll accusation, it's a sign you're out reasonable counter arguments.



> I still need to pedal to make it move.


No you don't:
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/electric-bike-throttle



> have we gone back in time and have segregation all over again? Why all the hate? All I wanna do is have some fun for F#CKS sake.


ebikes are getting more powerful, more modular and modifiable, and more discreet with every generation. It will be increasingly impossible for rangers to police different types of ebikes, and increasingly difficult to differentiate between ebikes and bikes at all. They will be conflated with regular mountain bikes by land managers and there is real risk that their existence will ultimately result in blanket bike bans in many locations with contentious access issues.

Comparing this to racial discrimination and segregation is again intended to shut down counter arguments, when one has no rational counter arguments themselves. I doubt anyone who has actually experienced racial segregation would respect your cause as its moral equivalent. You desire to be able to purchase an expensive luxury item in order have more fun on trails.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

sml-2727 said:


> Wow lots of Trolls in the ebike forum and if I was to cut my legs off the bike would go nowhere, I still need to pedal to make it move. Why cant people accept this? have we gone back in time and have segregation all over again? Why all the hate? All I wanna do is have some fun for F#CKS sake.


 Is that line from the Go go's? Nice. Motor/ no motor. Clear? Seems clear to me. Actually, if you do cut off your legs, under the ADA rules for HP access, you could ride just about anything you want for access. So there's something to think about.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Harryman said:


> PA state law is like most, which regulates where you can ride them on state roadways and bike lanes/paths. They leave local access up to local agencies.
> 
> http://www.bicycleaccess-pa.org/newsite/News & Digest - November 2014.pdf
> 
> ...


Is this the Legal Zoom "Ask a LEO" forum?

You guys are hilarious.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mountain bikes don't have motors.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

daven007 said:


> Is this the Legal Zoom "Ask a LEO" forum?
> 
> You guys are hilarious.


here's the thing: we have maybe, what, 50 forums? All dedicated to pedal and human powered mountain biking endeavors. We have one forum dedicated to electric assist cycling. You are in a huge minority of people here yet you e-bike proponents come in here and expect acceptance based on the fact that they are bicycles. It is going to be a long uphill battle for e-bikers to prove that they are bikes and belong on trails. Just because these things share components with mountain bikes doesn't mean that mountain bikers are going to accept them.

If it was me I would come in here and understand that people are concerned, have my hat in my hand and be understanding of peoples point of view about access and about legality. All too many people have posted about using their e-bikes on trails that were in fact illegal. I have seen 2 in washington and our trails are illegal for e-bikes. We have specific wording in our county and state bylaws regarding e-bikes and where they may be used (which is not on mountain bike trails) and this is the crux of the problem. Bike shops will have no problem selling a user an e-bike but will certainly not tell them that they are illegal on local trails, certainly that was the case with these guys here. Someone sold them an e mountain bike and they didn't know that they couldn't use them on Seattle's mountain bike trails. So people are concerned. What is to stop you from coming up to washington to ride your e-bike, then you get hassled or even ticketed on trail because you didn't know that you couldn't ride here? If I didn't tell you would you have checked? At this point in the e-bikes evolution someone needs to ensure that people understand that it isn't as cut and dried as e-bike=mountain bike and that there are varying levels of acceptance and prohibition throughout the US. Each person that posts on this forum has a concern about their trails. Those in CA don't care but those in other states, or those in states where trail access is tenuous care very much.

If it bothers you that mountain bikers care about trail access then you don't understand how much trail advocacy occurred during the last 20 years when you were out of the sport. We have seen trails opened up and close up, fought for traction and gain a foot hold. Currently the US Govt is reviewing our access into national park areas previous closed to mountain bikes. This is all progress based on our sports ambassadors and trail advocacy gurus all the way down to the grass roots trail crews working and maintaining trails. If mountain bikers feel that e-bikes threaten those gains and those hundreds of thousands of hours of work, who are you to say that they are wrong or shouldn't be concerned?

Good luck with your humble bragging and enjoy CA's many legal trails, bring a mountain bike to WA and enjoy our awesome trails under your own power.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

daven007 said:


> Is this the Legal Zoom "Ask a LEO" forum?
> 
> You guys are hilarious.


 Everyones gots to have laws. The nuances of the various state laws are wacky at best. And vary wildly from state to state. CA is no different. Try reading it some.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

rockcrusher said:


> Good luck with your humble bragging and enjoy CA's many legal trails, bring a mountain bike to WA and enjoy our awesome trails under your own power.


WTF is wrong with you people?

Humble bragging? I'm on defense here.

I showed up on _*an eBike*_ Forum and found that even the _*moderator*_ is hostile to eBikes.

I am a "troll" because I post about eBikes on an eBike forum?

I mention California because the mindless chant "Enjoy your bike legally" which is obviously a euphemism for "Go **** Yourself" around here has no rational basis in the place where laws that will affect the rest of the country are being crafted. The is simply statement of fact, not some indication of being a cheerleader for California. This place is nuts.

Please explain how a ban on ALL eBikes from trails helps the effort of those who think they are pure by some arbitrary standard?

If you don't like hearing about eBikes, you are welcome to convince management to disband this forum. I think it is quite funny that this is even an issue.

This is eerily like the days of people in the on-premises IT world railing against Amazon Web Services. It's a pointless, losing battle against the future.

Boy did I sure stumble into a goat rodeo.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Where is it stated that the purpose of the ebike forum is to blindly advocate for them? 

Each forum exists as the participants deem it, through their posts. If you don't like it, you are welcome to conduct the discussion on a website whose majority user base is not dedicated to mountain biking.

Why don't you go tell the 29er forum they shouldn't be discussing seatposts.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Procter said:


> Where is it stated that the purpose of the ebike forum is to blindly advocate for them?


Are you the Honda guy on the Porsche forum?

Blindly advocate?

I came here thinking that I would find other people riding eBikes. People to share experiences with. I saw a post buy someone who has a bike similar to mine. I thought "cool".

Stated purpose? "eBikes" is pretty ****ing self-explanatory.

If this forum was actually moderated (no offense to Walt, but having the Grand Wizard of the KKK chair the NAACP forum is a bit bizarre) then people who don't want to talk about eBikes would be ushered out and into a forum for folks who want to talk about "them days what gone by and such".

Talk to the owners of the website. Insist that they ignore the biggest trend in Mountain Biking. Tell THEM that eBikes are "of the devil" and that "they aren't real bikes, damn it".

Stomp your feet and whine like a *****. That will help.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

daven007 said:


> WTF is wrong with you people?
> 
> Humble bragging? I'm on defense here.
> 
> ...


 Man who post on interwebs must grow thicker skin. These e bikes may or may not be the future. Not without new laws being passed and a good stretch of time. Your " facts" may be subject to discussion. Your view from the dusty hills of La La land may not be the same views we see here in New England. Some keep waiting for CA to fall in the Pacific. With the wildfires, earthquakes, mud slides and lack of water, some wonder why anyone lives there at all  And what is a goat rodeo? Is that a CA thing? Most people are home/state/country centric. They can only understand what is in their own backyard and trails. Like some of the Euro riders wondering what the issues are? The US doesn't have right to roam? Those ID folks wondering why you just can't ride anything anywhere. The issue is perspective. Step back and take a minute to understand that your and my perspective might vary. Maybe. MA has winter and spring trail closures due to mud and snow. To someone who's trails get less than 16 inches of rain a year with no snow, or very little. Or trail conditions, terrain, topography, and soils vary widely. I never rode" loose over hardpack" ever until this year. Ever had a trail close because a vernal pool? And so on. And why can't I find any betamax tapes anymore.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

daven007 said:


> If this forum was actually moderated (no offense to Walt, but having the Grand Wizard of the KKK chair the NAACP forum is a bit bizarre) then people who don't want to talk about eBikes would be ushered out and into a forum for folks who want to talk about "them days what gone by and such".
> 
> Stomp your feet and whine like a *****. That will help.


Nice work, built a lot of credibility with that one.

FWIW, we've actually done a poll and something like 90% of MTBR users would prefer that the e-bike forum not exist. Ad dollars talk, though, so we make of it what we can - a place to discuss the potential impacts/problems/appropriate places for e-bikes.

-Walt


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

daven007 said:


> WTF is wrong with you people?
> 
> Humble bragging? I'm on defense here.
> 
> ...


Humble brag:


> I thought this was the eBike forum.
> 
> Where does this condescension come from? This is hilariously pathetic.
> 
> ...


Trolling, see above.

If you don't get it that is fine but don't expect people to give you a pass because you don't get it. Also don't mistake inclusion at MTBR as acceptance of ebikes. This is an ad driven revenue source, e-bikes bring money, forums drive clicks, but I would say that the vast majority of users here don't like e-bikes, nor do they want to see them on trails. As Walt said it is a speed delta issue. There are numerous threads on what would constitute an acceptable e-bike multiuser trail. As you are new here I suspect that you haven't seen it nor do you understand the arguments against them.

Bike legally is not a epithet or a derogatory comment but one that is directed at e-bike users because many have been uneducated about the legalities of riding their trails. You can and should check out the CA bike forum to see what transpires locally for ebike riders. This has nothing to do with IT vs Amazon. The only way that would be an apt simile was if the presence of Amazon had the potential to remove all IT based services from the web. Trail access is tenuous. There is a place in CA that banned all mountain bikes from their trails because someone saw strava segments they deemed as too fast and railed the people of this threat of fast bikes. E-bikes are regularly lauded as allowing users to go faster than they could on a normal mountain bike. This is what people are scared of, and of course the alternate ebike forums where people gush over their modded ebikes that go 30mph or throttle additions, etc. Other users can read the internet and if an entire town can ban mountain biking on their trails because strava segments, then others can see fit to find the same issue with e-bikes and do the same.

Thankfully I am not the moderator nor is Walt of this glorious forum of head in the sand ebikers. There is one and he is pro-ebike, the rest of us are just concerned long time mountain bikers that have been involved since the early days and had kids and careers and are concerned about e-bikes.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

daven007 said:


> Are you the Honda guy on the Porsche forum?
> 
> Blindly advocate?
> 
> ...


brain up man have a look at the bottom of the forum to see who is the moderator of this forum. Certainly not Walt nor me.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

I think Walt (or whichever mod does it) does a good job of moderating such a controversial forum because its usually limited to rational argument about the pros and cons of ebikes and mudslinging is deleted (I know mine has been )


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

leeboh said:


> Man who post on interwebs must grow thicker skin. These e bikes may or may not be the future. Not without new laws being passed and a good stretch of time. Your " facts" may be subject to discussion. Your view from the dusty hills of La La land may not be the same views we see here in New England. Some keep waiting for CA to fall in the Pacific. With the wildfires, earthquakes, mud slides and lack of water, some wonder why anyone lives there at all  And what is a goat rodeo? Is that a CA thing? Most people are home/state/country centric. They can only understand what is in their own backyard and trails. Like some of the Euro riders wondering what the issues are? The US doesn't have right to roam? Those ID folks wondering why you just can't ride anything anywhere. The issue is perspective. Step back and take a minute to understand that your and my perspective might vary. Maybe. MA has winter and spring trail closures due to mud and snow. To someone who's trails get less than 16 inches of rain a year with no snow, or very little. Or trail conditions, terrain, topography, and soils vary widely. I never rode" loose over hardpack" ever until this year. Ever had a trail close because a vernal pool? And so on. And why can't I find any betamax tapes anymore.


I am as much in La La Land as you are in Manhattan. You may not be aware, but California is a big place. I live in Northern California. 420 miles from LA and the mudslides and the fires. Our snowpack was fine this year. I'll post pics from the forest that I will be riding in this weekend. Ever heard of the Sierra Nevada ?

Again, LA is as far from me as you are (using Boston) from Buffalo.

Vernal pools? Of course. I don't live in the desert.

I have been to MA probably only _*once every 6 to 8 weeks for the last 20 years*_. :eekster:

I admit that I have only ridden a mountain bike in Milford. Beautiful trails during the habitable time of the year.

We have winter trail closures. We have mud and snow. 22 inches of rain per year is the average. You need to stop watching TV news.

Funny MA story. When my colleagues are in CA and they are getting directions somewhere they always ask, "Which way do I exit? North? South?" I would reply, "I don't know. Go to the left. Over the freeway, That direction."

That freaks them out. Why? because when you exit the highway in MA...like along 495...you have NO IDEA where the exit is going to snake its way around to. If you don't follow the direction signs, you can find yourself completely lost when the foliage is on the trees. LOL. It too me years to figure out why they couldn't accept my directions to places in CA.

You are just mad because you know that your entire State exists because The Pilgrims didn't land in San Diego.

So no, I am not provincial. I'll be in 4 foreign countries between now and the end of October.

Lighten up. Its bikes we are talking about here, and I love MA. I could go for nice pint at the Bell in Hand right about now.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Procter said:


> I think Walt (or whichever mod does it) does a good job of moderating such a controversial forum because its usually limited to rational argument about the pros and cons of ebikes and mudslinging is deleted (I know mine has been )


NEPMTBA is the eBike Moderator. I think he is even in the business of selling eBikes.

As a supermod I will step in on occasion and break up fights and put down those casting direct insults.

Everyone here can have a civil discussion, if you don't like how people are responding to your posts you do not need to respond back to them, and certainly not in a manner that is just going to provoke heated arguments.

Name calling and going around the profanity filter are not permitted.

If you really think someone is being a jerk just to be a jerk, report them, don't join them.

And if you need it, here is a link to the Site Rules:
Mtbr Posting Guidelines

Please play nice, if someone starts a new topic and you do not have anything useful to add to the discussion, move on, please do not "de-rail" the thread and take it off the original topic just because you want to pad you post count or add an insulting remark. This sort of behavior will also be moderated. Please try to foster a community of helpfulness.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> NEPMTBA is the eBike Moderator. I think he is even in the business of selling eBikes.
> 
> As a supermod I will step in on occasion and break up fights and put down those casting direct insults.
> 
> ...


I'll take a deep breath and hit the reset button.

There is no question that I have not showed quite enough restraint.

;-)


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Dave, immerse yourself in the sections that deal with where you rode your bike, what new technology is being developed or a new thread on something that you're interested in or concerned about. No sense having a discussion or expecting fair treatment like when you're out on a trail. These individuals use circular reasoning, denigration, sending private messages to call you a name and many other forms of abuse. If we try that, a mod or super mod will attack in some way.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

fos'l said:


> Dave, immerse yourself in the sections that deal with where you rode your bike, what new technology is being developed or a new thread on something that you're interested in or concerned about. No sense having a discussion or expecting fair treatment like when you're out on a trail. These individuals use circular reasoning, denigration, sending private messages to call you a name and many other forms of abuse. If we try that, a mod or super mod will attack in some way.


If you have received an attack PM please report it. It will definitely be dealt with.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

daven007 said:


> In California, the key is having certain classes of low-power, pedelec bikes NOT be classified as "motor vehicles". They have speed and power restrictions, and do not require a license. It is acknowledgement that there is a middle ground between what I am hearing people concerned about- basically electric motorcycles- and simply a "more sophisticated bike. Especially as meaningful regen starts to be part of the picture.


Before you go much further with the "in California" statements you should read and understand what the new e-bike law actually says; "low power" is actually up to 750 watts and throttles are as legal as PAS. (Class 1 being pedal sensor and Class 2 being throttle) Classes 1 & 2 get the same "open unless closed" treatment RE trail access; Class 3 are "closed unless open".


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

daven007 said:


> I am as much in La La Land as you are in Manhattan. You may not be aware, but California is a big place. I live in Northern California. 420 miles from LA and the mudslides and the fires. Our snowpack was fine this year. I'll post pics from the forest that I will be riding in this weekend. Ever heard of the Sierra Nevada ?
> 
> Again, LA is as far from me as you are (using Boston) from Buffalo.
> 
> ...


 Pints, now were talking. Beer fridge and beer cellar guy here. About the provincial. I realize CA is huge, I was just spouting off. No one talks about New York in MA, evil empire  Actually, the pilgrims landed because they ran out of beer, now were stuck with pumpkin beer. Back to Milford riding, was that in Vietnam parcel, lots of air time, jumps and rollers? We( NEMBA) bought it for + 200,000 K to prevent it from being an office park. It connects several other conservation pieces together. Nice trails there. Got support from riders and bike companies all over. Here in MA, anything not designated as conservation land or such is slowly being built into condos or office parks. so sad. Same issues in Nor Cal? Lots of people in MA, a great trail network of state forests and parks, as well lots of town conservation lands. But at risk from over use and poaching from illegal users, such as motorized vehicles. Trail access for mt bikers is not always given and continues to be at risk in some places. Fortunately mt bikers have become a great resource for trail work and maintenance. Now we have land managers reach out to us for help with the trails. How's the trail work and trail conditions in CA?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

lee, great post; you didn't ask about socal, but trail conditions are dusty here, worse than I've seen in 30+ years. Not much trail work in progress since the trails are fine otherwise. However, big potential problem is FIRE DANGER especially since a fire investigation team "ascertained" that a recent fire (fortunately, extinguished fairly quickly) was started by a MTB pedal striking a rock. My favorite park for a quick workout is closed for fire camp, which is a conglomeration of units ready to be deployed. It's conceivable that places will be closed to all use.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

We've gone through that a few times when we've had fires and floods, there's nothing like an agency flipping the switch and shutting off half to most of your riding areas to sober you up to how important access is.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Once they're shut down, seems difficult to get them opened. We have areas that are closed that were roads (that is diesel trucks could drive on them).


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

The easiest land to manage is the parcel with no one on it. Our local USFS district is a fan of this strategy. There are places that closed "temporarily" to all users and are still closed 20 years later.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Harry, feel your pain. Agree with SHM that MTB can't afford to support e-MTB in many (most/all???) areas in order to preserve access. I'll be like a rat on a sinking ship if we're (MTB) threatened here.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

fos'l said:


> lee, great post; you didn't ask about socal, but trail conditions are dusty here, worse than I've seen in 30+ years. Not much trail work in progress since the trails are fine otherwise. However, big potential problem is FIRE DANGER especially since a fire investigation team "ascertained" that a recent fire (fortunately, extinguished fairly quickly) was started by a MTB pedal striking a rock. My favorite park for a quick workout is closed for fire camp, which is a conglomeration of units ready to be deployed. It's conceivable that places will be closed to all use.


 Ascertained? How so? Magnesium pedal? Seems far fetched to me. Steel pins on an aluminum pedal? With that much dry and dust, I imagine the trails take a beating?


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

daven007 said:


> I showed up on _*an eBike*_ Forum and found that even the _*moderator*_ is hostile to eBikes.
> 
> I am a "troll" because I post about eBikes on an eBike forum?
> 
> .


Actually the ebike forum only exists on mtbr so that we real mountain bikers can keep tabs on what the lazy ebikers are up to. To protect trail access of course.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

lee, just reporting, not commenting; seems like a real worry. Sandy, dusty trails seem to hold up pretty well, and the sand is replenished where necessary, but very little actual trail work AFAICT.


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## sml-2727 (Nov 16, 2013)

The horses in my area do more damage to the trails than any ebike would, so should we ban horses?


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

sml-2727 said:


> The horses in my area do more damage to the trails than any ebike would, so should we ban horses?


There is not a person that I have seen object to e-bikes on trails that mentions trail erosion or damage as their reason. Speed and weight are 2 of the bigger objections I have seen and of course trail advocacy based on these characteristics.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

sml-2727 said:


> The horses in my area do more damage to the trails than any ebike would, so should we ban horses?


Let us know how that works our for you.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

abelfonseca said:


> Actually the ebike forum only exists on mtbr so that we real mountain bikers can keep tabs on what the lazy ebikers are up to. To protect trail access of course.


 Lazy? How about wanting to go 2 or 3 times further, in less time? The workout is still there, granted not as much if you ride an ebike the same trail you pmtb, so you end up going further and higher, end of the ride you are as trashed as usual, you just covered more ground. Least that's what my buddies who have been mtbr's since the sports inception and have now gone over to the dark e side. The pbikes and their dirt bikes sit in the garage, they ride their ebikes every day. I'll make sure to tell them they are lazy!

Not going 30 mph uphill like Walt seems to think we all do, still single digits, but steady. The workout is still there to any extent you desire, lazy is posting here when I could be riding.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I don't see how it's anyone's business trying to be the 'effort police'. 
WTF does that have to do with anything?

Maybe we should just start busting balls on every mountain biker that doesn't go out and crank out at least 35 hard and fast miles every time they get on their bikes. And do it a minimum of 5 times of week of course. 

Obviously everyone else is lazy and shouldn't be allowed to pedal the trails. 



Better yet, maybe we could implement a national 'no dig, no ride' policy. All the lazy ****ers that don't put in at least 50 hours a year doing trailwork, BAN 'EM I SAY!!!


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

sml-2727 said:


> So I was at the LBS browsing all the bike and saw my first ebike, the turbo levo from specialized, I told the dealer I gotta test ride that and he was more than helpful with giving me a test ride. He powerd it up told me about the three settings and off I went....The smile on my face must of been enough, I was amazed buy the power, but still have to pedal. Now im hooked, it would make a great second bike.


Good for you. I don't doubt that people will love e-bikes when they try them. Imagine hopping on a bike and when you pedal, the bike responds with double or triple the power you put to the pedals. Who is not going to like that? I'm not seeing anyone say they are not fun, just that they have a motor and don't belong in the same category as non-motorized bicycles.

Personally, I am in this for the fitness and will stick with pedal power for trail riding. When I get older and fatter I can just add a granny ring to my bike (like I had when I first started). There is just something about looking at a hill and knowing that I have just one way to get up - me and my old body. Bring on the pain. Maybe I'm sick, but even on my worse day, I love it.


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Lazy? How about wanting to go 2 or 3 times further, in less time? The workout is still there, granted not as much if you ride an ebike the same trail you pmtb, so you end up going further and higher, end of the ride you are as trashed as usual, you just covered more ground. Least that's what my buddies who have been mtbr's since the sports inception and have now gone over to the dark e side. The pbikes and their dirt bikes sit in the garage, they ride their ebikes every day. I'll make sure to tell them they are lazy!
> 
> Not going 30 mph uphill like Walt seems to think we all do, still single digits, but steady. The workout is still there to any extent you desire, lazy is posting here when I could be riding.





slapheadmofo said:


> I don't see how it's anyone's business trying to be the 'effort police'.
> WTF does that have to do with anything?
> 
> Maybe we should just start busting balls on every mountain biker that doesn't go out and crank out at least 35 hard and fast miles every time they get on their bikes. And do it a minimum of 5 times of week of course.
> ...


Relax guys, its a joke! Did you also take the keeping tabs part seriously?


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Lazy? How about wanting to go 2 or 3 times further, in less time? .


Whats the average autonomy on these ebikes btw? Can they go 90 kilometers and 4000 meters (13,000 f) of elevation gain in a single charge?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I believe STRAVA is the real enemy and has done way more damage to the "speed" side of trails than Ebikes. All the major manufacturers will produce ebikes in the future. I also support IMBA and ride all different kinds of bikes. They are all fun. States and counties that have an ebike ban is understood. Every ebiker or normal biker should respect there laws and continue good trail etiquette. The knuckleheads will always be there regardless of what you ride.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

abelfonseca said:


> Whats the average autonomy on these ebikes btw? Can they go 90 kilometers and 4000 meters (13,000 f) of elevation gain in a single charge?


 Depends. My longest ride so far was 46 miles, with 4 K of vert. I had gravel most of the way, then a stretch of soft dirt/ mud. I was not playing around but was using the bike to get to where I had left my work truck the day before. Weather was threatening rain or sleet the entire way, at least once I was committed! I took a spare 11.5 ah battery along with my usual one of the same size. Used up one, about half of the spare. Could have done better but time was of the essence (no rain gear or shelter anywhere, and cold) Pedaled entire way, PAS 1 to 3 out of 5. Kicked my ass but I made the truck right when the sleet started. I'm 67, in good shape, still 67......


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## sml-2727 (Nov 16, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> I don't see how it's anyone's business trying to be the 'effort police'.
> WTF does that have to do with anything?
> 
> Maybe we should just start busting balls on every mountain biker that doesn't go out and crank out at least 35 hard and fast miles every time they get on their bikes. And do it a minimum of 5 times of week of course.
> ...


Actually the last storm that blew through tipped over about 12 trees, whos the guy that cut them all, ME. Im one of the trail stewarts and help donate my free time to making the trail in good condition.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sml-2727 said:


> Actually the last storm that blew through tipped over about 12 trees, whos the guy that cut them all, ME. Im one of the trail stewarts and help donate my free time to making the trail in good condition.


Cut 12 trees...hmmm...okay, you can trade that in for about 4-6 hours of riding.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

leeboh said:


> Ascertained? How so? Magnesium pedal? Seems far fetched to me. Steel pins on an aluminum pedal? With that much dry and dust, I imagine the trails take a beating?


This got me thinking.

The ebike crowd should go argue for access on the basis that they don't start fires. Because they don't pedal.


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