# Spin-off for my 3½-year-old



## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

So with the 5-year-old, she is all set for a 16" and 20" bike with the pair of Hotrocks I picked up.

Looking around for my 3½-year-old, I'm on the fence. 12" is too small, and there is only one good 12" bike it seems (Hotrock). 14" is most-likely just right, which pretty much leaves only the Islabikes CNOC-14 as a good quality 14" bike for her. 16" may be just a bit big for her, with a 15½" inseam and 39" tall.

I did a little calling around to the shops in the area, one shop offers 15% off special orders, and no tax in Delaware, so a Redline Pitboss (14 lbs. 6 oz, rear v-brake, freewheel) would be $322 out-the-door. Islabike CNOC 14/16 would be $310 shipped.

As of right now, she's really enjoying going to the BMX track. I (think) the Redline would be the better bike for doing this. If she really sticks with it, she would probably end up moving to a Micro eventually, but I don't think that would be a very good street bike, where the 16" would be a good street bike, and adequate track bike in the meanwhile. Unfortunately, Redline's stand over is 17.25", so even with shoes on (max 1"?), it may be a bit too tall.

Who knows. She may eventually decide she prefers freestyle, mountain biking, or playing the clarinet. Either way, I don't want to limit her growth/potential with shoddy gear.

I also have a 1-month old boy who would be inheriting whatever we buy as time goes on. Honestly, the Redline is probably "my" dream bike from when I was a little boy...hard to keep in perspective sometimes what's best for the kids and what we want ourselves. I learned a lot though in the thread for my 5-year-old.

The most noticeable difference to me between Isla/Redline is the length of the chainstays, front fork has a more noticeable rake coming out of the head tube on Isla, more spokes on Redline, and front sprocket size.
CNOC-14









CNOC-16









Redline Pitboss


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Unrelated:

Bought a Fly Kinetic Inversion FF helmet for her. Head measured 20" around at 1" above her eyebrow. According to their chart, Youth Large fits 19.75" - 20.5". It's a bit big and wobbly, so this will have to go back for a Youth Medium. Just in case someone else is in a similar situation.

Fly Racing 2014 Kinetic Inversion Helmet at Danscomp


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

High bottom bracket of the redline would likely make it much harder for a little rider to get started on this bike. Little kids really like to be able to sit on the seat and be able to reach the ground with their feet. The BMX geometry (high bottom bracket) of the redline would make the leg extension feel really cramped (and very inefficient) if it was set low enough to reach the ground. 
Looks to me like the islabikes would be much better suited to getting small kids started at trail riding as opposed to BMX riding style of sprinting out of the saddle and performing jumps/tricks.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Don't forget the spawn furi, tho pricey.


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## IdahoLee (Apr 7, 2014)

I have taught both my kids to ride out of the saddle BMX style. I feel like it is better for long term bike handling skills to learn BMX style riding. Sit and spin is OK, but getting kids to work on their technical skills builds a foundation for future skills development. I know several 4 year olds who got their start on the Pitboss. Great bike, and the kids became really good riders really quickly.

With that being said, for a 3 year old, I wouldn't blow off the 12" bikes. If you are up for throwing down the cash for a Pitboss or CNOC, I would check out the Cult Juvi 12". You saw those crazy twins that were posted the other day. Cult Juvi 12".
Super nice little bikes, and in my opinion would be a better fit than either of the ones that you listed. $339 +$17 shipping per the website.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Random thoughts.

In regards to the 12" bikes, how much accuracy is there in the statement some reviews have said about the Specialized Hotrock 12 being the only worthwhile 12" because that bike has the BB a little forward of the seat tube, making it easier to pedal? Wonder why all that effort and money they went with a caliper brake over a v-brake? My wife has OK'd the $300+ cost of a bike but is pretty adamant about not getting a 12" because "she's growing quick etc." I see where she's coming from. If she decides she wants to get into ramp/freestyle, I'll look that direction though.

I did see the twins -- awesome.

ilmfat -- Spawn? Never heard of 'em.  At 16.5" inseam, she actually fits the requirement for their Banshee. Not that the Furi wouldn't be better. Looking at $447 shipped for a Spawn Banshee. Presale, available in ~ 1 month.

15% off on that Redline ends on Sunday.

This heavy but interesting thing popped up today...Schwinn Jeda
https://lancaster.craigslist.org/bik/4417917879.html


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

That's a tall seat tube. 

Slaphead and idaho are right on, it is easier for kids to manipulate smaller bikes. 

But if I don't jump or play at the skate park, it's unlikely ima get my girls to catch air. So, meh for us. 

I'm just gonna get them riding bmx (once the track is done w rebuild) and hope I can get em on the trail (eventually). 

We really just ride on the bike path and "easy" trails, and that's all ima push my kids for. (And that was enough for my oldest. Our trail adventure was a disaster.)

My 5 year old already likes the "pump track". Ima try to get her confidence back up and get her riding the bowls at the dirt jumps. 

Eh. 

Decisions, decisions.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Did I miss a reply from Slaphead? I thought I'd seen one.

Decisions, decisions, indeed.

So what is the purpose of the super-short chainstay and exaggerated front fork angle on the Islabikes?


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

In the other thread, slapheadmofo recommended smaller wheels, and his kid rips it up, too. 

The slack head tube angle is for more stability. 

Isla bikes has a different demographic. 

They go more for the commuting/biking as a lifestyle/touring crowd. (They ARE from Europe, after all). 

I.e., More stable, narrower tires, lighter weight. 

That's part of the reason I went with spawn, I have more confidence in spawn's durability. (I'm sure the isla's can hack, but I like extra assurance.) that and much better tire clearance. Some dude put 2.4s on a BANSHEE, so I knew the savage could handle whatever I wanted to throw on it. 

Not sure on chainstay length rationale. 

Batt dyin. Better get this sent. 

Btdubs, congrats on the wife comin around.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

A woman on CL e-mailed me with a girl's Hotrock 16 she has for $80. I dunno, I've seen ones in better shape for the same money. Then again, I'm sure it's fine for riding. Decided to actually throw her on the one I have to see how she fits riding.

I slammed the seat on bigger sister's Hotrock 16 to see how she does. She can stand over top tube and touch the ground, but not sit on the seat and touch the ground. Little off the bottom of the tube and I can probably get another inch, or perhaps a lower profile seat altogether (Strider? Strider Mini Seat/Post Combo at Danscomp). Not being able to touch the ground makes it hard to start from a sitting position.

Other thing is the @#$&^&)*(^&$%@#%$#$&*^^) coaster brakes. First, they screw *me* up every time they hit the damn things when I'm walking/trotting to support them and stay with them. Secondly and worse, it is screwing the both of them up royally. I hate them. I'm so tired of the stupid rules of the gov't trying to protect people from themselves. Let Darwin work it out. :lol: I just hate them.

Size-wise, I think she's really close to 16" size, I don't know if she's all the way there yet. Part of me wonders if I should stick her on a 12" (Hotrock, Cult-thanks) until she's developed good habits, and then pass that on down to her brother, and get her a 16" later.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

*cough* spawn banshee *cough*

I remember those days. 

Don't miss em one bit. 

Seriously, if'n you're just lookin to cruise around, get a gnoc14. I bet the 16 would be a lil big. 

Or, ya know, a banshee  my 3 year totally loves hers and your kid has 2.5" more inseam, soooo....


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

That damn Banshee looks more and more appealing every time I look at it, and it's really the simple things.

I don't know, what's up with the coaster brakes? I guess eventually the kids will get it that they can't pedal backwards? They suck.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

It's not just that, being able to "pedal" backwards helps with getting up hills, keeping your feet level while standing on pedals, and especially getting started. 

Can all those things be done w a coaster brake? Yes. 

But the learning curve is a lot steeper. 

Trying to teach my younger how to start on her own would have been a nightmare on a coaster brake bike.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I took my kid "DHing" with coaster brakes. Kid would do like 5000' of vert a day on 'em. But yeah, that was only because he didn't know better at the time. 






Dave, I think a little bit of time on a cheapy 12", coaster brakes and all, would open the door. I dunno if I'd blow a bunch of money quite yet - they grow fast as hell. For now, just keep getting her out having fun and give her time to develop a little bit and you'll have a better idea whether you should be investing in a small mtn-ish bike or a mini BMX bike.

And yeah - I'm totally of the same mind as Lee when it comes to riding standing and running smaller wheels for kids starting out.


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

Dave88LX said:


> ilmfat -- Spawn? Never heard of 'em.  At 16.5" inseam, she actually fits the requirement for their Banshee. Not that the Furi wouldn't be better. Looking at $447 shipped for a Spawn Banshee. Presale, available in ~ 1 month.


Didn't I mention the spawn for you on your other thread? I thought I had...

Regardless, I definietly agree with ilmfat. My 3.5 year old started on a Spawn Gremlin/Furi last year, and it was the PERFECT bike for her. 9 months later she moved up to a banshee... but only because her younger sister was ready for the 14" bike.

The Islabikes look great too, but they do come with a coaster brake in the US... it was cheaper for me to get the Spawn imported from Canada than to refit the Islabikes. Depending on how you feel about the coaster brake that may or may not be an issue for you. I can say that my daughters both take advantage of the ability to set the pedals where they want them ALL the time.


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

Dave88LX said:


> I don't know, what's up with the coaster brakes? I guess eventually the kids will get it that they can't pedal backwards? They suck.


When I looked into it last year, the deal was that it was US law for "sidewalk bikes." Apparently they think the kids will slam the hand brakes and go over the handlebars. Now, getting a kid young enough to be on a sidewalk bike with enough hand strength to lock up the front wheel... I think that's kind of unlikely.

The Banshee V2 is supposed to have a lower seat height than the V1; they haven't updated their geometry chart with the newer bikes, though. I have a V1 Gremlin/Furi, and a V2 Banshee. If you want real-world measurements on the new frame, let me know.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Lol. He was being sarcastic, as I have been hitting him over the head w spawn since his first thread.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Haven't had a chance to sit down and reply to everyone yet, working on catching up!

Did take her to the track again today and she had a blast. Walked up to the top of the access hill, turned around, lifted her feet and flew down it before I could comprehend what was going on. Hit the bottom, wheel turned, over the bars she went. Jumped up "I'm OK I'm OK!" and hopped back on her bike, to the applause of all the onlookers. :lol:

I'm not too impressed with the Strider components/"headset"/steering. When she's done with it, I'll be looking for something a bit sturdier (still light) with a hand brake for the boy.

Was comparing the Cult CC12 to the Hotrock 12 for the hell of it size-wise. Was surprised to find the HR slightly larger. I don't know how the head tube angle plays into it. Cult I would assume would be "faster", has caliper brake (meh), freewheel (yay). Don't know how big they can really stay on one though. As I said, the good part is a little brother coming up too so IF I go 12, it will have another rider to start on it from the beginning.


......................Cult........Hotrock
Top Tube.......13.25".......13.7"
Head Angle.......74*.........70*
Seat Angle........70*.........71*
BB Height.........6.8"..........6.8"
Chainstay........9.25"........10.7"
Gearing...........25/9.........26/16


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

Dave88LX said:


> I'm not too impressed with the Strider components/"headset"/steering. When she's done with it, I'll be looking for something a bit sturdier (still light) with a hand brake for the boy.


I agree with you there. I got a pair of balance bikes last May for my girls to start on... a Strider, and a Burley MyKick. The 3.5 year old was off and running on the MyKick within 2 days. 2 weeks after that, when the Spawn Gremlin arrived, she was off and pedaling after a 3-day transition. Now, almost a year later, her younger sister (just shy of 3yo), spends about half her time on the Strider and half on the MyKick. The MyKick is MUCH more stable than the strider. I got the strider because its seat went lower than any other BB on the market... and at the time that was necessary. But, now that she can fit either, #2 is obviously much more in control on the MyKick than the Strider. My biggest complaint with both these BBs is that they have no brakes. It would be really nice to give them something to use to slow down when needed. If you don't mind the lack of hand brake, the MyKick is a great bike. If you want a hand-brake, you'll need to look elsewhere...

Little A (#2) has been on the 14" Gremlin a couple times now... her toes JUST touch the ground, and she's a little scared. That's just about where her sister was when she got going... I bet that by July I'll have two girls on pedal bikes. Poor momma... she isn't a bike fan, but has little choice to keep up with the girls who want to live on them.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Scoot Mini Balance Bikes by Ridgeback presented by WeeBikeShop™

thats a low seat!


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

So I _shouldn't_ pick this up "just in case"? Lol... Believe it's a 2007...just noticed it on my CL. Works out, great, doesn't work out, positive I can recoup the $75. I hate myself. I'm going to have a garage full of bikes trying to figure out my life.

Redline pro line micromini


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

that's a helluva deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!

take your girl and you might be able to talk him down to $50.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Possibly, but hell I think at $75 that thing is a steal. I imagine the first person to show up with the cash will take it. $370 new for that model. Inflation blah blah. I think I could get every penny of $75 back if I re-sold it.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

at least you have a garage.

im all steel 29er and yet i have a backyard full of xs/sm aluminum 26ers for the sister's kids.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

My old house I had a detached 28x48 full of crap. I got rid of a LOT when I moved -- complete engines/transmissions/etc. I didn't need anymore. Downsized a lot. Only had two bikes, in the shed. Now I'm damn near at two bikes per person! :lol: I need a shed badly! I have a 3-car, but I don't want it full of crap!

I just set my phone to send a text message at 7 am to the guy.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Page ownage!

I actually have the 2012 proline mini. Great bike.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

He has someone coming at 6,I'm second in line... So unless they are a flake, it's sold I bet.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

bummer.

here's hopin, tho.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Didn't hear back, so I'm sure it was bought.

I stopped into the LBS today with my little one to check out the Hotrock 12. I went back and forth in my head for a good bit about it while she tooled around on it in the store. In the end, I think the "keep it small" guys are on to something. While she can 'fit' on a 16", I think she'll have worlds more control on the 12". When she's ready for something bigger, we can move up either to her sister's 16" Hotrock, or something else depending which way she goes. If she really gets into it, I'll give Spawn a call. 

I decided to go with the blue one since I have the up-and-coming baby brother too. I talked her into it by tossing in some purple pedals and grips into the deal. LBS was nice enough to throw an order in for the purple grips at no cost. I'll find some purple pedals somewhere. Maybe a couple other small things like valve stem caps, butterfly stickers, and a chain or something.

She is doing great on it already, rode to the end of the street with my hand on her back. It's going to be funny when she's riding on her own before her 5-year-old sister.

Oh, saw a Hotwalk in there too, so much better than the Strider. Still need something with a brake though for my hill.

Thanks for all the advice! If I didn't have a little brother to pass it on to, I would have gone a different route, but this will be a good bike for the interim.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Ah so. Seat post clamp. Seat post is 1" diameter. Specs says the clamp is 29mm. I see a lot for 1-1/8" (28.6mm). Is this basically the same or is there actually a difference in the seat post clamp?

Shadow Conspiracy Alfred Lite Seat Clamp at Danscomp

Math is wrong on this one (diameter). It's WAY too heavy anyways... it's .7 ounces heavier!!!  Animal V2 Seat Clamp at Danscomp

Rather use one of the cheaper ones.
Straitline Seat Clamp | Chain Reaction Cycles


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## IdahoLee (Apr 7, 2014)

Great bike. She will outgrow the coaster brake at some point. Then you should think about a more aggressive gear ratio. The less aggressive one is better to start, but once they can balance well, the more difficult to accelerate but higher top speed will be better for her. You will be back on posting about how you are upgrading it. 

My next bit of advice would be to drop that seat as low as it will go, never raise it, and tell her to always stand up to ride. She will be a better rider for it. More control, better balance, and better foundation for technical riding.

My boy was riding on his 3rd birthday the day he got his first pedal bike. His sister was jealous that he could ride, and she taught herself on a Hotrock 16 with the cranks removed as a balance bike about 3 weeks later at age 5. Your older will get a lot of motivation from her younger sister.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

I'll have to give it a try standing up to pedal. As an adult it's easy to stand up and pedal. How hard is it for a kid who is just learning? The thing that BLOWS about a coaster brake and learning to pedal is when they mess up, they're skidding and pretty much falling down.

If it didn't cost $100 to add v-brakes, I would. ($70 shipped for brackets, ~$17 brake kit, $10 for bosses).

Funny how ilmfat was talking about how much money the 'bling' on his bike cost. I figured I'd grab a couple purple things to make it less "boy" for her, maybe a couple small things.

Seat post clamp - $9-20
Axle nuts - $12/pair ($24)

Ahhh yeah, so maybe I'll re-think that. I can see how quickly it would have added up on his bikes.

I think you're right -- older one will get some motivation for sure. So when she gets decent on this bike, is she allowed to track it? Or will I need to work her into something bigger?


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Front gets axle nuts, rear gets chain tensioners.

Lol.


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

Dave88LX said:


> I stopped into the LBS today with my little one to check out the Hotrock 12. I went back and forth in my head for a good bit about it while she tooled around on it in the store. In the end, I think the "keep it small" guys are on to something. While she can 'fit' on a 16", I think she'll have worlds more control on the 12".


The Spawn 14" bike actually has a lower seat than most 12" bikes (not 100% sure on the hotrock), bigger wheels, and is definitely more stable than a lot of 12" bikes... Plus no coaster.

Just saying.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Yeah I thought hard about it. Not sure how long the wait would be for one, and I can reuse this. I'm sure a Banshee is in my future.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Oh yeah, can anyone confirm that 28.6mm is for all intents and purposes, the same as 29mm?


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Personally, I'd go red. Everyone loves superman.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

ilmfat said:


> Front gets axle nuts, rear gets chain tensioners.
> 
> Lol.


Even worse!!!


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Purple carries a premium. 

Just wait til you start on headsets.

Lol.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Website says 28.6 clamp, which sounds right.

No schmancy pedals for her, either.

Odyssey Flames Pad Set at Danscomp

cheaper than bling

FLITE 3 Piece Nylon Old School BMX Padset - Checkerboard - PURPLE WHITE

Or just get some stickers.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Dave88LX said:


> So when she gets decent on this bike, is she allowed to track it? Or will I need to work her into something bigger?


You'll probably be able to track it with a couple 'mods' - ditch the reflectors and chainguide I believe; track can let you know specifics. That thing's fine to get her feet wet. I got a feeling anybody nicknamed "Honey Badger" at 3 might take to the racing thing tho...future champ?










(pardon the soundtrack, but good vid besides)


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Finally started a youtube channel.






Not bad for being off training wheels for less than a year (5 months of which was too cold to ride).

And being on a bike that is too big.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

ilmfat said:


> Finally started a youtube channel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seems to be enjoying herself! You on the other hand...sound...a bit winded.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> You'll probably be able to track it with a couple 'mods' - ditch the reflectors and chainguide I believe; track can let you know specifics. That thing's fine to get her feet wet. I got a feeling anybody nicknamed "Honey Badger" at 3 might take to the racing thing tho...future champ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man, those girls are no joke.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Cut me some slack, it was my first video.

Next time ill edit out the overweight, middle aged man sound.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Just busting on you, I would sound the same way. :lol:

FYI 28.6 mm worked great. For some reason, and I swear, it said 29mm before. It does say 28.6 mm now. Just waiting on the pedals to come in.

Sweet-ass pad set! I wonder of those bear-claw pedals are a bit much for right now?  jk


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Aluminum alloy BMX acorn axle nut 3/8" X 26T (SET OF 4) PURPLE


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Oh and I'll tell you one thing I appreciate about this so far -- I get much more descriptive information than "SICKKKKKK" and "SMOOOOOTH" when I'm looking up parts.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

But, but, 

But those axle nuts ARE rather sick and smooth.

Being a stay at home dad with few friends and slight inclination to ride helps my Utility quotient.

Kid hit the (real) trail again today and loved it. Only one stack, and it was my fault. Didnt kill her joy tho, thank god.

And for the record, starting out semi one handed, uphill on a 33x12 29er would tax anyone's fitness.

At least that's what I tell myself.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

I see what you did there....

So it says aluminum/decoration. If that's the case, what are the other ones that are $12/pair?

Nah I have no room to talk. I was winded after 2 laps around the neighborhood with the kids. Only reason I could keep up is because they are all too big for their bikes.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Also aluminum.

On the kid's bikes, im pretty sure that you can run em as structural, since the stresses arent anywhere near as high.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

So the purple pedals came in. Pretty slim selection on purple pedals for a 1/2" thread. Wasn't sure how they would size up -- think they might be a little big. If so I'll just throw them on the 16" Hotrock instead.

I don't quite understand the shape of them or the little hook on one edge. Options are open for a better 1/2" thread purple pedal.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Braaaap!!!


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Looks pretty good, yo.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

It's nowhere near "ilmfat" specifications, but it'll work for a 3½-year-old! :lol:

Her number plate came in today too for her Strider. Weeee!


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Just remember, putting their bikes at "my specs" blew not just my bike budget, but my ENTIRE fun budget for the year.

Our girls are "collar buddies".


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Yeah I recall you saying that. I need to come up with a 'fun budget' before I get myself in trouble.

I'm not familiar with 'collar buddies'?


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Same seat collar.

Long story, summed up by, "I am easily imprinted with other people's mannerisms".

I do the finances, so its easy, except when I "pre-spend" the fun money and play catch up the rest of the year.

But the wheels mikesee built for my jabberwocky ARE super dope.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Ah! Gotcha now!


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Pedaling by herself today!!!!!!!!! Even got the hang of pushing herself along with her feet to get rolling and then start pedaling. 3½ years old...beat her 5-year-old sister out. :lol:

I'll get some pic/vid tomorrow. I'm pumped.

One small other touch, added in the purple anodized axle nuts from PorkChopBMX for $6/4 since I was getting a couple other things there.


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## indianadave (Apr 27, 2010)

Sweet little bike... I will be going thru this when my 1 year old gets a little bigger. Already have a Strider, but am watching for a better balance bike with a handbrake to come along... Strider has been thru about 5 kids now, and may be worn out by the time she's ready. Oh well. It was a $15 Goodwill score from before she was even born. LOL


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Dave88LX said:


> Pedaling by herself today!!!!!!!!!


Wooohooo!!!

Only 3 1/2 more years til she can go to Woodward! Start saving up!

Camp Woodward - Home


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> Wooohooo!!!
> 
> Only 3 1/2 more years til she can go to Woodward! Start saving up!
> 
> Camp Woodward - Home


$1200/week! What the faaaack!!!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Coolest place in the world though. 

The do weekends in the off-season (Sept - May) for a pretty decent rate.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

It looks badass!!! At least I have a little time to save up for it. 

This is awesome. They've been running around on a Strider and a pedal-less bike for around a month or so, and now they're on their own. Couple hours yesterday helping them start off, and today they're doing it themselves. So so excited and pumped for them.

Just got to get the little one to keep her head up...haha. Looking for her pedals.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

FYI stuff: Kid next door has a Trek Jet 12, it weighs 20 lbs. Hotrock 12 weighs 15 lbs.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Here's the video I couldn't get to post the other day. Nothing special, but special to me. :thumbsup:

Huge thanks again to everyone for all the help and guidance.


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## ProjectMayhem (Aug 23, 2013)

They're doing really well. And it is special


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Update:
She's been killing it all summer on her Hotrock 12, but she's starting to look a little cramped Deebo style on it lately. A Redline Pitboss (16") popped up on the Facebook BMX trading forum locally for $150 and so I picked that up. Turns out that he actually races too at the track I bring my daughter to.

I was worried at first about the transition from coaster to hand brakes, but she picked up the change right away, and was enjoying being able to freewheel backwards. Her sister (5 y/o) is loving the bike too.

I had to cut the seat post bottom (not original) to get it low enough. Turned in the setscrew for the brake handle to bring that in closer. The only "issue" I have is the previous owner installed longer crank arms on and changed the sprocket for his son. I need to get a set of shorter cranks for it (don't believe he has the originals but I'll ask), and get a smaller sprocket on the front probably so that she can have a bit more power.

She's been racing Strider class, but yesterday she took her 12" bike all the way around the track. Not enough power to get up some of the bigger hills unfortunately. I think getting her on this 16" will be a step in the right direction for getting on the track, as she wants to start pedaling the track.

So proud of this kid, just amazed. She ate it hard yesterday riding on the street when her front tire lost grip in a pile of gravel in the street. Community is still under development, so the township isn't required to streetsweep. It's awful. I'm going to look into what options I may have via complaint because kids are going down 2-3 times/week.

I need to get a better picture, it was getting dark last night. You can see how long the crank arms are. I'm going to pull them off soon so I can see what kind/style I need to get her.


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## ProjectMayhem (Aug 23, 2013)

Awesome! Is it a square taper bb? If so Spawn Cycles cranks are great.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

ProjectMayhem said:


> Awesome! Is it a square taper bb? If so Spawn Cycles cranks are great.


I will check when I get home. I see they have 89mm and 102 mm.

Earlier in this thread (May) she was 39" w/ 15½" inseam. Assuming she's 40" w/ 16" now, I'm getting two different answers on crank length.

40" = 1016mm...10% = 101.6mm + 5mm = 107mm

Another chart says with a 16" inseam, use a 120mm crank.

Thoughts?


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## ProjectMayhem (Aug 23, 2013)

My son is a very similar age, I think - he will be 4 in November. He is 98cm (38.6"). We are using the 89mm at the moment but will be upgrading to the 102mm soon.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

OK so I looked today, and it is square. There is only one size square taper correct?

My issue is this: Currently have a 38/16 on here w/ 140 mm Sinz crank arms. Cranks are way too long. Shortest I can get them in is 115 mm, this will let me reuse my 5-hole 38t chainring with the 16t rear.....38 gear inches.

If I go with the 102mm Spawn, I'm not seeing very many 4-bolt chainrings, and the ones I do find are lower teeth count, so I'd really need to change out the rear too which I don't really want to go into.


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## ProjectMayhem (Aug 23, 2013)

The ability to run a small chainring was why I liked the Spawn ones - running 22t at the moment!

I will put a bigger one on when I swap the cranks for longer ones.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

So times have changed since I was younger and everyone was running 44/16. What's the advantage of the smaller gearsets? I'm going to assume weight and ground clearance. Is there anything else that I'm missing?

I'm not looking to have to buy a rear too so that's why I'd prefer to stick with the 16t rear, and the larger front.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Are these the 64mm BCD 4-arm chainrings that will work on the Spawn crank arms? Or is there a specific style that is needed?

Chainrings | Chain Reaction Cycles


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

The pitboss has a higher BB, so will be more forgiving w longer cranks than a mtb frame.

Get the 115s, yo.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

I think I'm going to do the 115s, and if it's just too awful, I'll look at doing 102s and converting everything. I've got a 6-month old son too, so none will be gone to waste.

Currently a 38/16 setup (2.38). Stock is 36/16 (2.25). The Banshee is a 28/14 (2.00).

Need to decide which chainring (gear ratio) to put on there for BMX track and street. I'm thinking 32t (2:1) and adjust up or down from there as necessary.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

If she can do the 140s geared like that, she'll prolly be able to turn the 115s.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Yeah she can turn them but it's really bad.

Brooke (3, almost 4), Bella (5½)

Brooke's been riding the Hotrock 12 at home all summer, but she's been racing Strider class. She's been asking to step it up to the pedal bike on the track.






I'll be getting the Redline (16") set up for her to take around the track, the 12" is just too little. We bought it knowing she'd grow out of it quick but with the intention that my son would get it next so we didn't mind.

Brooke on the Hotrock 16 (Normally Bella's on this bike). Short crank arms, good leg position. She's practicing standing up a lot.



























Bella on the Redline. You can see the 140mm cranks are way too much.


















For comparison, here's Brooke on the Redline. Look how stuffed up her leg is, and that's not even at the top.








[/QUOTE]


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Well if nothing else, you've inspired me to take the girls for a bike ride.

With a 5 bolt you can easily go as low 33/20.

32/20 if'n ya wanted to spend the bucks.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

ilmfat said:


> Well if nothing else, you've inspired me to take the girls for a bike ride.
> 
> With a 5 bolt you can easily go as low 33/20.
> 
> 32/20 if'n ya wanted to spend the bucks.


Heck yeah, get them pretty bikes out there!:thumbsup:

Confused on the /20, I have a 16t rear. Currently 38/16 (2.375).


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

u can go as "low" as 20 with a freewheel.

I think white ind. Might even do a 22t freewheel. But $$$$$.

Tho the rear may be a micro cassette. If so, the world is your oyster, my friend.

A 32t for the 110bcd 5 bolt will be pricey. Not many companies do one.

Danscomp has decent 5 bolt rings for $20/each. 

I'd start with a 34t and a 36t.

If those are still too tall, get an 18t or 20t freewheel. 

36/18 gets you 2:1.

34/16 would be a good minimum layout "assessment" setup.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Yeah I'm not looking for anything expensive of crazy (22t rear or 32t front).

This has a flip-flop hub but I don't know EXACTLY what that means for me since I hear there are a couple different types.

So looking at my 110bcd 5-hole options, I'm looking at 34t+. I hadn't looked up my options previous to posting, so 2:1 is definitely out -- I don't want to pay to change out the rear unless I absolutely have to. Good info, thanks! Rennen Pentacle has a 33t but it's $43.

Oh, speaking of short crank arms, I found these too, although pricey.
Turn3 racing: https://www.facebook.com/turn3racing
100/110/120 are $126 shipped
125/130/135 are $140 shipped


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

bling tastic.

looks like they might take the answer spiders, too.

sorry it's pretty jumbled, but i "stream of conciousness" sometimes:

i hear ya on the freewheel size/pitch. i looked into it, and the flip flop hub sizes are pretty much standard now.

SOME (rare/old ones) are oddball, but the redline will be 13t-15t on one side, 16t and larger on the other.

Excess Pro Series Freewheel at Dan's Comp

my 16t and 18t are:

GT Ratchet Freewheel at Dan's Comp

for the superior engagement.

i hear ACS pros are decent, also.

the spawn crank has a rather narrow band of options.

28/13 is about the tallest gear you can go with the spawn crank. 30/13 if you want to really stretch it.

the sinz crank will give you alot more options.

tough call, but if my kid was lookin to bmx race, i'd go the sinz route. it may be a little more cash outlay, but with the 5 bolt, you can duplicate the gain ration of the spawn crank. the opposite doesn't hold true.

figure a 30/13 is the best you could get with the spawn, and that's AT LEAST $100. even 28/13 is still gonna be $75-80.

getting the sinz crank, 2 chainrings (34t and 36t) and a 14t freewheel gives you a pretty huge range.

and 5 bolt kids cranks will always be cheaper (or same price, in spawns case) than 4 bolt, so you'll prolly use the various rings and freewheels (tho the spendier bmx wheels us micro cassettes).

decisions, decisions.


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## silvascape (Sep 11, 2014)

Just thought I would add my 2 cents here. 
This is my first post in the forum - I am a Mum with a just turned 5 year old son who wanted to "ride on the bumpy track" (bmx track - neither I nor his Dad had ever been to one) before he turned 3. He started racing bmx at 3 and 4 months and also races road, cyclocross and we do a fair bit of bush riding as well.

People seem amazed that a 3 year old would want to and can ride well enough to race bmx. From our experience you just need the right equipment.

Cranks - 3 year olds on average need 115 mm cranks. JR Bikes have the sinz ones for $49.99 (minus 15% if you search for the coupon code). They are strong, robust and a bit heavier than other more expensive options. We have found that they also have a excellent resale value (in Australia anyway - they are very hard to get). They are excellent value for money and will bolt straight onto any square taper bottom bracket. 4 year olds - generally 120mm cranks and at 5 my son is nearly ready for 125s but is tall for his age.

Gearing - crucial for them to be comfortable. In BMX its always talked about in roll out and as a general rule or thumb for under 7s:
If a beginner - roll out of 4* with * being their age. so a 3 year old could start out with a roll out of 43 inches: 4 year old 44 inches etc
If experienced add an inch, if sitting down minus an inch or two.
If riding a 16" wheel bike with 1.75" tyres 38:14 gives 43.4 inches, 34:12 gives 45.33 inches 36:13 gives 44.3 inches. Play around with combinations. bmxultra have a great grea calculator. If in doubt go smaller rollout - always better to spin.

Bike wise any decent bike will let your kids start riding around the track. For his 3rd birthday we got our son a Byk 350
The E-350 - The bike every kid would love to learn on.
Great little bike. 18 inch wheels for greater stability, really low seat and standover height, lighter than most and robust. He was able to ride it from day 1. It replaced the cheap 12 inch he had been riding for a couple of months and his balance bike.

Once he started racing bmx he got a Redline Micro mini - fantastic and interestingly the geometry is very similar to the Byk. He now rides a Micro bmx with 20" wheels for BMX and a Trek Superfly 20 everywhere else (shortened head stem and cranks).


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## silvascape (Sep 11, 2014)

Here are a couple of photos - on his Byk a couple of days after turning 3 and on his Redline micro mini at about 3 and 3 months


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

So on one of the Facebook BMX parts groups, I found a guy who is going to sell me some new-in-box Sinz 115mm cranks for $40 shipped. I'll pick up a couple chainrings either online or check the parts trailer at the track for some different gearing.

Thanks for the tech info! I'll play with the numbers.

Over the winter I'll be searching/piecing a micro-mini for her in the spring.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

ilmfat said:


> but the redline will be 13t-15t on one side, 16t and larger on the other.
> 
> getting the sinz crank, 2 chainrings (34t and 36t) and a 14t freewheel gives you a pretty huge range.


OK looking a bit more into this. Currently with the 16t, the lowest I can pretty much go is 34/16 = 2.125, and on up with a larger chainring.

With a 14t freewheel, 34/14 = 2.42 at the smallest. Should I be looking at a 17t for the other side? That would let me go 34/17 = 2.00 and on up for the "easier" pedaling, would still have the 16t on the other side.

I don't know. Need to digest the next post below yours, but I must leave for now!


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

silvascape said:


> Gearing - crucial for them to be comfortable. In BMX its always talked about in roll out and as a general rule or thumb for under 7s:
> If a beginner - roll out of 4* with * being their age. so a 3 year old could start out with a roll out of 43 inches: 4 year old 44 inches etc
> If experienced add an inch, if sitting down minus an inch or two.
> If riding a 16" wheel bike with 1.75" tyres 38:14 gives 43.4 inches, 34:12 gives 45.33 inches 36:13 gives 44.3 inches. Play around with combinations. bmxultra have a great grea calculator. If in doubt go smaller rollout - always better to spin.
> onths and his balance bike.


Are we talking about Gear Inches or Rollout?

38/14 w/ 16" tires would be 43.4 gear inches, but 136" rollout (Gear Inches x Pi).

Going off the 4X Gear Inches for age, I would need 44" for my 4-year old. With my current 16t rear, I would need a 44t front to make that happen. I don't know, it may be a bit much. That'd be what the 'big kids' run.

But I don't know, maybe it's not too much.


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## silvascape (Sep 11, 2014)

Hi Dave. Have a look and play with the bmx ultra gear charts and don't forget the gears I suggested are for track riding. Our 5 year old now runs 34/15 on his 20" wheels with PowerBlock tyres and he can spin over just about anything. Don't forget that tyres size makes a big difference and that they are standing not sitting so they might be more comfortable having a bit of resistance to push against. You might want to start out in the 38 - 40 range then move up as they improve and start to stand up but don't go too low or they wont be able to spin their legs fast enough to get enough momentum to get up the bigger jumps. For 16" wheels 38/16 = 38, 39/16 = 39 You said the pitboss had 38/16 on it. I'd put the 115 cranks on and give it a try.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

OK I'll go and play with the calcs. I currently have a 38/16 x 16 so maybe I will just leave that on there for now and see how she does with that...good call.

I just bought the Sinz 115s @ $40 so they should be here next week.

Same guy has a set of Sinz 125s and Redline Microline 130s he'll do for $35/ea (pair) shipped. Tempting to just have on hand as they grow.

WWMTBRD?


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## silvascape (Sep 11, 2014)

For that price I would be tempted to buy them and store them away for a while. Reasonably priced small cranks will become like hens teeth if sinz don't rise from the dead. The only options in Australia at the moment are turn 3 at $170+ or the dwindling supply from JR Bikes. Hopefully Sinz is revived and continues to make reasonably priced decent quality gear.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

I see some people saying they don't want Sinz cranks -- why is that?

Does Sinz even have a homepage? I can't seem to find one.


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## silvascape (Sep 11, 2014)

My understanding is that sinz was owned by intense which has gone into receivership. Noone seems to know if they are going to be bought and continue operation or not. Some people prefer other brands of cranks which look better and in some cases are lighter than the sinz cranks. I think the sinz cranks are good value for money and would rather buy 3 or 4 pairs of them in different sizes and have cranks that fit rather than buying the better looking option and taking a 'grow into them' option. 

The weight issue is another thing. Its personal preference. I think weight is important but fit is more so. My son wears full bmx clothes, armour, elbow guards, full face helmet etc when riding his bmx bike. To me a hundred grams here or there is a cost based analysis. His bike is light - under 6 kgs but I can't justify spending a thousand dollars or so to get it to the magic 5 kegs which some people aim for. 

The turn 3 cranks are awesome looking, come in a nice range of colours and are a hundred grams or so lighter than the sinz option. While I would love a set (4sets in different sizes really) I am afraid that the $ vrs benefit equation just doesn't get there for me. Maybe when he gets a bit older and they last more than 12months.


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## silvascape (Sep 11, 2014)

Just stuck a set of 125mm sins cranks on the scales to make sure my memory of weights wasn't too far out. 
Sinz125mm cranks = 464 grams ($42 from jr bikes - about $55 delivered to aus)
Turn 3 cranks 125mm cranks = 359.1 grams listed on their Facebook site ($140 shipped within the US, $164 to aus)


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Well that stinks to hear about Intense/Sinz. Yeah I am not ready to drop the dollars on those Turn3 cranks, but at the same time, it doesn't bother me TOO badly because I'll have 1-2 more riders coming up through them. If I get them for my oldest, still have the middle and youngest to use them.

Thanks for weighing those BTW! Good to know.

I decided not to get those other pairs of cranks for now and just run with these 115s.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Brooke's still racing Strider class, but practicing "big bike" on the track. I'm going to pick her up a Micro Mini over the winter to have ready for her come spring to actually race on.

Having a ball.









Brooke with her 'big bike gear' getting ready to go down the start ramp.


















...aaaaaand she's off.



























Goober. Always with the priorities (see: Goldfish).


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## ProjectMayhem (Aug 23, 2013)

Well done Brooke! Love seeing your updates


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Let her put her own cranks on, as much of the job as she could!

First time I changed crank arms: 33 years old. First time my daughter changed crank arms, 3 years old.:thumbsup:


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## silvascape (Sep 11, 2014)

That's awesome. Hope she likes them.


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## indianadave (Apr 27, 2010)

Love it when my girls want to help out...


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Me too! I had to run inside to get something, when I came out she already had the crank puller threaded on the other side.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Well she's definitely getting more confident. Now that she's taking her feet off to do tricks, I really need to get this handbrake installed. That Hotrock needs a re-gear too.

Need to look into what my options are. I wasn't going to spend much unless I knew she was going to be into it. She's massively into it. I have to build/buy her a micro-mini over the winter for racing. I need a street-bike too. I don't know if this Hotrock will nickle-and-dime me to death getting it to where I want it, and should revisit the Spawn etc., or if it'll be OK.


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## jwoodpdx (Nov 4, 2005)

Good thread and very timely. I have a 4 year old and a pittboss and the cranks are way too long. I'm in the same boat trying to decide between the Sinz 115 and the Spawn 102. I habve stock gearing of 36/16 on the pitt boss. I'm leaning towards the Sinz cranks but can you post some pics of your little one riding the redline. Also what did you think of your 38/16 gearing? Thanks, Jeremy


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Yeah the Pit Boss comes with 140mm cranks. I was able to get a good deal on some new-in-box Sinz 115 cranks for $40 shipped.

Re-used the 38t chainring (previous owner swapped it), but I just ordered a 34t because the 38/16 (2.375 : 1) is a bit steep for bigger hills. She gets around the neighborhood, the smaller regular hills, and the BMX track on the 38/16 fine though.

I need to double-check what the HR16 gearing is, but I'm pretty sure it's 28/18 (1.5 : 1), but yesterday on a fairly big hill, the older one had to walk it the rest of the way up the hill on the Pit Boss, the younger one was able to ride up the hill the whole way on the HR16.

I will get a pic of my little one on the Redline tonight.


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## jwoodpdx (Nov 4, 2005)

Thanks this is helpful. Do the 115 cranks allow for a better spin? The 140's have the knees to the chin


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Knees-to-chest indeed!

5, on 140s.


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## jwoodpdx (Nov 4, 2005)

Yes that my 4 year old's situation. I'm on the fence between getting the sinz 115 and 34 T or buying the Spawn Gremlin and selling the Redline to help the cause. This bike will be the main ride ie neighborhood jumps, indoor bike park. Let me know if the 115's made the pitboss a better all rounder for the 4 year old crowd.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Did you do the calculations to see what size crank would be the best fit for your kid? You might find the optimal range is in the 90-100mm range -- that's not to say they can't turn a 115mm.

The smallest you can get in Sinz is 115mm (~$45-50) without going to Turn3 cranks at $126 for a shorter-than-115mm length. Well, you can buy cranks from Spawn too, $70 shipped. I'm not sure I'm loving the options for a 64mm BCD 4-bolt crank though.

Spawn Gremlin? Banshee?


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## ProjectMayhem (Aug 23, 2013)

My almost 4 year old is still on his 89mm cranks. (I deciding whether to put the 102s on his 16" bike or a 20") He also still has a 22 tooth chainring (16 rear) and he does spin out but not as much as you might think - he gets up some awesome speed down trails, and can get enough speed on the flat to do big jumps on ramps, kerbs etc.

Having said that I am planning a bigger chainring, just trying to decide between the 24 or 26...


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

24/16 (1.5) is about the same as my 28/18 (1.55), and I'm looking to gear it a little higher because she's spinning it out, and like I said was able to get up that hill. The 2012 HR16 at least has 92mm cranks and they seem just right for her.

I should probably just leave the bike the hell alone and let her ride it for now.:thumbsup: I'm a tinkerer, and can't help but want to change things. She gets frustrated that her sister's beating her everywhere though.


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## jwoodpdx (Nov 4, 2005)

This is helpful. Sounds like the 102 might be the better with 28T and 16T out back instead of the 115 36T 16T.


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## Sparkitekt (Nov 9, 2012)

Dave88LX said:


> Let her put her own cranks on, as much of the job as she could!
> 
> First time I changed crank arms: 33 years old. First time my daughter changed crank arms, 3 years old.:thumbsup:


That's a beautiful thing that you guys get to share together. Enjoy. Sooner than ya want, she'll be a teenager with "plans" and no time for dad. 
I'm already there.


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## silvascape (Sep 11, 2014)

Dave88LX

Just to let you know, on most bmx race bikes the chain ring goes on the inside of the crank arm spider. You might have trouble with the chain lining up between the sprocket and chain ring with the sprocket bolted on the outside of the crank spider as shown in the pictures above.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Sparkitekt said:


> That's a beautiful thing that you guys get to share together. Enjoy. Sooner than ya want, she'll be a teenager with "plans" and no time for dad.
> I'm already there.


I hear you. I have a 5-year old, I can't believe she's already in kindergarten. Have a 7-month old as well. Doing the best I can to balance everything!


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Sparkitekt said:


> That's a beautiful thing that you guys get to share together. Enjoy. Sooner than ya want, she'll be a teenager with "plans" and no time for dad.
> I'm already there.





silvascape said:


> Dave88LX
> 
> Just to let you know, on most bmx race bikes the chain ring goes on the inside of the crank arm spider. You might have trouble with the chain lining up between the sprocket and chain ring with the sprocket bolted on the outside of the crank spider as shown in the pictures above.


Wow would you look at that. I'm glad you said something. I just put it back on the same way when I took the 140s off. Previous owner had put Sinz 140 cranks and a 38t chainring on. Wonder why they did that?

Does something look funky with my BB too? Not sure why both sides don't match.

You can see the chain misalignment now. I'll get that swapped over.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Sparkitekt said:


> That's a beautiful thing that you guys get to share together. Enjoy. Sooner than ya want, she'll be a teenager with "plans" and no time for dad.
> I'm already there.





jwoodpdx said:


> This is helpful. Sounds like the 102 might be the better with 28T and 16T out back instead of the 115 36T 16T.


Just got home and they're already in bed, I'll be able to get something tomorrow though.


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## silvascape (Sep 11, 2014)

Yep, that looks weird. It looks like someone has replaced the bottom bracket with one which is a bit wider than the frame requires - I am pretty sure that style of BB feeds in from one side and tightens on the other. It might be loose though, you could try tightening it, you need a special spanner and tighten it from the non chain ring side. The chain line certainly looks out in the photos so I would swap the chain ring to the other side of the spider, it will run much smoother and you will get way less chain, sprocket and chain ring wear if everything is lined up properly.


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