# DT 240 vs I9 Hydra ~90gram weight difference



## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

Just wondering how many would choose the DT's because of the 90g weight difference. I'm not a full on weight weenie and not racing but am trying to lighten up my V4 Ripley a bit. I'm building a wheel set and current is ~1900grams and I had it in my mind I want to get to the 1500 gram range. If I build with Hydras that i want for the bling colour and unique sound it will be 1650g and the 240's will get me more the desired weight of mid 1500grams. If i post in any other forum I'm sure ppl will just say you will never feel the 90 grams so just get the hydras but wondering what ppl say here. Thanks!


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

What do you want to hear? 

Yes, the DT is lighter. Yes, the i9 has more bling, more sound, and more engagement. 

Your move.


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## russya (May 3, 2007)

You will notice the difference of the engagement and the sound way more than the weight, that’s just a fact. I built up my V4 Ripley about as light as anyone I’ve seen (23.5lbs XL), but I was making the choice between these two hubs and chose the heavier I9’s. My buddy’s RIpmo has the exact same wheels as mine but with the 240’s and when we ride each other’s bikes back to back he wishes he would have gotten the I9’s instead. I’m not saying the 240’s are not great hubs, because I’ve owned several and have always liked them with the 54t driver. But myself and people I ride with prefer the I9’s when we ride them back to back, even for a weight weenie like me. My $.02 for what it’s worth. 


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## pctloper (Jan 3, 2016)

Personally, I hate those loud hubs-----I enjoy riding thru the woods without the feeling of bees swarming--worth 90 grams


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Neither.

Project 321.


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## russya (May 3, 2007)

For the record, if you put the thicker grease in the I9’s they quiet down to be quite a bit quieter than the DT240’s. So If I’m going to be riding out by myself where there’s not a lot of people I run them quiet. If I’m going to a trail where there’s lots of traffic, especially mixed traffic, I run the thinner/louder grease to let people know I’m coming. 


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

Suns_PSD said:


> Neither.
> 
> Project 321.


I have heard good things but the company I'm likely dealing with (NOBL) does not stock them.


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

russya said:


> You will notice the difference of the engagement and the sound way more than the weight, that's just a fact. I built up my V4 Ripley about as light as anyone I've seen (23.5lbs XL), but I was making the choice between these two hubs and chose the heavier I9's. My buddy's RIpmo has the exact same wheels as mine but with the 240's and when we ride each other's bikes back to back he wishes he would have gotten the I9's instead. I'm not saying the 240's are not great hubs, because I've owned several and have always liked them with the 54t driver. But myself and people I ride with prefer the I9's when we ride them back to back, even for a weight weenie like me. My $.02 for what it's worth.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thanks, this is along the lines of what I wanted to hear! I 've heard only great things about the hydras and if I don't enjoy the free hub noise I'll put the recommended grease in them. 23.5 is crazy light! My SLX build with carbon bars is about 30 even! Just wondering what ID wheels you are running when you are that low? I can also easily get down to my goal wheelset weight of around 1500 grams if I go with a 27ID instead of 30ID which i thing I'm going to go with.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

russya said:


> For the record, if you put the thicker grease in the I9's they quiet down to be quite a bit quieter than the DT240's. So If I'm going to be riding out by myself where there's not a lot of people I run them quiet. If I'm going to a trail where there's lots of traffic, especially mixed traffic, I run the thinner/louder grease to let people know I'm coming.
> ...


Seems like a lot of work. (?)


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

phlegm said:


> Seems like a lot of work. (?)


There are plenty of vids on this. Looks like a 5 min job, no tools required.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

I am also looking to get some lighter wheels for my Ripley LS this spring, however, I've been shooting more for the 1300g range. My aggressive weight goal makes the Hydra tough sell.

Overall, I've been comparing a number of hubs, and what I think it comes down to is that DT has a small and light free hub engagement system. By all reports it is durable, but the small diameter of the Ratchet Drive means you can only put so many teeth in it and maintain that durability.

The I9 on the other hand has a big engagement ring with many tiny teeth and 4 pauls to engage with them, and that all adds weight. Generally, across the range of high-end hubs, the high-engagement hubs are heavier and the lightweight hubs have less engagement. There's no way around that, you have to pick which is more important to you.

If you have Ibis branded hubs right now, the DT have the same number of engagement points, so you won't miss it, FWIW.

I had some King hubs back in the day, and going from 18t to 72t back then, it was obvious how important high engagement is for my style of riding. I say riding style is important because situations like technical climbs or terrain with a lot of corners you have to accelerate out of or short steep climbs, the extra engagement is really valuable. Descending and flow trails, not so much. Currently I have a bontrager Kovee wheelset with 108t and the Ibis 938 with 36t. Honestly, I don't notice it much, because I typically choose the lighter bontrager wheels (with lighter tires too) for rides with more climbing and tight corners, and the Ibis wheels for more descending and rougher trails.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

Oh, and I want to add, take a look at XTR: 54t, only about 15g than than the 240's, and cost about $150 less. You could put the money you save towards some chinese carbon rims, and save the weight where it really counts.


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

FishMan473 said:


> I am also looking to get some lighter wheels for my Ripley LS this spring, however, I've been shooting more for the 1300g range. My aggressive weight goal makes the Hydra tough sell.
> 
> Overall, I've been comparing a number of hubs, and what I think it comes down to is that DT has a small and light free hub engagement system. By all reports it is durable, but the small diameter of the Ratchet Drive means you can only put so many teeth in it and maintain that durability.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input! I am on the Ibis logo hubs so although i likely would not miss the engagement of the 240's something tells me that I will enjoy the added engagement of the Hydras. My local trails is more pedalling with some tight stuff with only short ups and downs so i may make a small difference,


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

FishMan473 said:


> Oh, and I want to add, take a look at XTR: 54t, only about 15g than than the 240's, and cost about $150 less. You could put the money you save towards some chinese carbon rims, and save the weight where it really counts.


Yes I was considering BTLOS but I like the idea of NOBL, a Canadian company rather than dealing with China, and yes I'm aware the rims are coming from China....haha. I'm ok with spending the extra few hundred bucks to go with NOBL.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I bought some carbon NOBLs with I9s a few years back, and was very happy, so I'd have no concerns with the firm. I'm running DT-based rims now (Spec Control SL) and also happy.

As suggested, I don't think you'll notice a massive difference on weight, nor engagement either way. I personally wasn't a huge fan of the I9 sound, but that's me.


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

phlegm said:


> I bought some carbon NOBLs with I9s a few years back, and was very happy, so I'd have no concerns with the firm. I'm running DT-based rims now (Spec Control SL) and also happy.
> 
> As suggested, I don't think you'll notice a massive difference on weight, nor engagement either way. I personally wasn't a huge fan of the I9 sound, but that's me.


Thanks for the input, the Hydras are more quiet than the torches apparently and as said above, they can be easily silenced with Dummond grease so I don't think it will be an issue if i don't like the stock sound.


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## LC17SMP (Dec 27, 2016)

I’m not a fan of the i9 hydra concept. To get the high engagement numbers they rely on one pawl of engagement and other pawls engage as the system torques or flexes if I understand it correctly. So there is always more stress on 1 pawl. DT 240 hubs have an even torque load applied. If a mechanical engineer was picking one of these systems for longevity and durability I wonder which one he/she would pick? 😉


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Is that 90g's difference real world confirmed weight or advertised? I wonder what the confirmed weight difference is with the 36t ? 
I have a weight weenie build in mind I've been considering and that 90g's may have choosing 240's over I9's. I've loved my 9's thus far though. Beyond degrees of engagement I really like how firmly they engage. 

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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

LC17SMP said:


> I'm not a fan of the i9 hydra concept. To get the high engagement numbers they rely on one pawl of engagement and other pawls engage as the system torques or flexes if I understand it correctly. So there is always more stress on 1 pawl. DT 240 hubs have an even torque load applied. If a mechanical engineer was picking one of these systems for longevity and durability I wonder which one he/she would pick? ?


I think you're misunderstanding that system. Yes, a single pawl engages first but before it receives too much torque, a second, third, and forth pawl engage so that no one pawl ever receives too much load. It's actually an extremely strong design.

There's lots of them out there at this point, if it was problematic it would be all over the internet.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

WHALENARD said:


> Is that 90g's difference real world confirmed weight or advertised? I wonder what the confirmed weight difference is with the 36t ?


I have a spreadsheet with some numbers, I believe what I have down are "Actual Weights", with I9 coming in at 300g and DT 240 EXP at 235g, so a 65g difference. But if one had a SRAM free hub and the other Shimano, it could make a pretty big difference.

EDIT: I Had originally posted the weight of the straight-pull 240 hub, just corrected that.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

NOBL Wheels has all the hubs with photos:





Actual Hub Weights - NOBL


We've compiled an extensive list of actual hub weights. Find DT Swiss, Onyx, Industry Nine, Hope and more!




noblwheels.com


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

As a hub SET, each with j-bend spoke flange, 6-bolt disc mount and Shimano MicroDrive freehub, for comparison's sake:

I9 = 476g
240 EXP = 379g

so its actually 97g

Which is pretty significant. With that said, I know _I_ get caught up in these seemingly hard numbers and put a lot of stock into them, when other factors, that are harder to put a number on, are just as important, if not more so.

EDIT: I will say that the sound a hub makes is at the _very bottom_ of my list of things to think about when deciding which to buy. I've owned the notoriously loud Chris King hub for years, and honestly most of the time the noise it makes just fades into the background, you don't notice. And after about 20 years, they start to quiet down a bit.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

darrylruddock said:


> There are plenty of vids on this. Looks like a 5 min job, no tools required.


The process doesn't take that long, but it also doesn't last very long.


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## russya (May 3, 2007)

Here's the difference of the two hub sets. Rims and spokes(berd) are the same. The I9's have tape and valves, which is why they are a little heavier than the 90 g's. Btw, this shows that you can get a set of wheels in the 1300's with I9's. It's not cheap.... But these wheels are pretty great. If I remember correctly these rims are 30mm Inner. But I'd have to measure to make sure. Btw, it should also be pointed out that the new 240's are a decent amount lighter than the old ones shown here.


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## ghettocruiser (Jun 21, 2008)

I know nothing of the I9s, but I will say that my 240s are now at 11 years and 30,000km, a lot of it in winter slush. 

With just some grease every year or two. 

No other wheelset I've had has lasted that long.... they are approaching mechanical immortality.

(knock on wood)


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## TazMini (Jun 21, 2019)

I like DTs for my XC rigs and i9s for the Enduro. Both have been rock solid for years.


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## LC17SMP (Dec 27, 2016)

*OneSpeed* said:


> I think you're misunderstanding that system. Yes, a single pawl engages first but before it receives too much torque, a second, third, and forth pawl engage so that no one pawl ever receives too much load. It's actually an extremely strong design.
> 
> There's lots of them out there at this point, if it was problematic it would be all over the internet.


I do believe I understand the system. I'm not saying it's junk or not reliable but point out that the DT system would likely be considered superior from a mechanical engineering point of view.

As far as engagement goes, does 1 pawl have much more stress than the others or does the system flex easily and the other pawls engage rather quickly? Option 1 will likely lead to premature wear or damage. Option 2 means your not really getting 690 points of engagement. So at .52 degrees engagement per pawl how many pawls do you need engaged to support your max torque? 2,3,4? Each additional pawl means you effectively lost another half degree of engagement. If it's 4 then the marketing doesn't look nearly as good vs DT and your still working with a hub with uneven loads however minor that may be. Both systems may be overkill in strength for mtbing but I would not consider them equal.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

ghettocruiser said:


> I know nothing of the I9s, but I will say that my 240s are now at 11 years and 30,000km, a lot of it in winter slush.
> 
> With just some grease every year or two.
> 
> ...


Same here... I have multiple sets of ~2008-ish DT 240s and Chris King hubs that have been trouble free with minor cleaning and re-greasing US ng no special tools.

I also run a few 3-pawl lower POE Stan's HD's plus others and don't notice a dramatic difference compared to climbing stuff on 36/54 DT ratchets or King's.

Some of my friends had i9's. The biggest complaints from them were about excessive rear hub noise and bearings going bad. I think the bearing issues are not so common these days. My King's are super quiet which most people don't expect.

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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

LC17SMP said:


> I do believe I understand the system. I'm not saying it's junk or not reliable but point out that the DT system would likely be considered superior from a mechanical engineering point of view.
> 
> As far as engagement goes, does 1 pawl have much more stress than the others or does the system flex easily and the other pawls engage rather quickly? Option 1 will likely lead to premature wear or damage. Option 2 means your not really getting 690 points of engagement. So at .52 degrees engagement per pawl how many pawls do you need engaged to support your max torque? 2,3,4? Each additional pawl means you effectively lost another half degree of engagement. If it's 4 then the marketing doesn't look nearly as good vs DT and your still working with a hub with uneven loads however minor that may be. Both systems may be overkill in strength for mtbing but I would not consider them equal.


You don't understand.


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## Pisgah (Feb 24, 2006)

Putting weight aside, the 240s are easy to service. If the Hydras are anything like the guts of my Torches, it’s microsurgery to deal with. Both hubs have wear spots. The I9 bearings vs 240s ratchet surface.

Edit: The 240s bearings will wear too.

My lowest maintenance hubs are the Kings (angular contact bearings). But they are tricky to service, if you want to do a complete job.


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

Thanks for all the replies. I'm sure I can't go wrong either way and just need to decide what is more important in the end. One small potential rub with the I9's is if I go that route, i will likely get the orange colour to match the accents on my bike (which will look cool) but which makes it less likely i would be able to bring the wheels over to my next bike whenever that may be. That said I love love love this V4 Ripley and can't imaging selling it for at least 3-4 more years.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

ghettocruiser said:


> ...
> 
> (knock on wood)


Ha, love the anti-jinx at the end!


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## ghettocruiser (Jun 21, 2008)

phlegm said:


> Ha, love the anti-jinx at the end!


What I didn't mention is that I've somehow had the same set of _rims_ (Stans 26er) on them the whole time. I replaced a bunch of rear spokes about five years ago but that's it.

My mechanic doesn't understand how they've lasted so long, and I kind of don't either.

For a long time I figured I could just build them into a new wheel set when the time comes, but I'm no longer sure that they'll be convertible to whatever strange new hub standards are in effect at that point.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

darrylruddock said:


> Just wondering how many would choose the DT's because of the 90g weight difference. I'm not a full on weight weenie and not racing but am trying to lighten up my V4 Ripley a bit. I'm building a wheel set and current is ~1900grams and I had it in my mind I want to get to the 1500 gram range. If I build with Hydras that i want for the bling colour and unique sound it will be 1650g and the 240's will get me more the desired weight of mid 1500grams. If i post in any other forum I'm sure ppl will just say you will never feel the 90 grams so just get the hydras but wondering what ppl say here. Thanks!


I would go DT without giving it a second thought. and not because of the weight advantage. Difference in engagement is fairly irrelevant, but if you want DT has the option of a 54 points rachet. Want bling? Get a pair of DT XMC 1200 ... or go for the less expensive XMC 1501. My 2015 XMC have thousands of miles on them and still going as strong as day one ...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Davide said:


> I would go DT without giving it a second thought. and not because of the weight advantage. Difference in engagement is fairly irrelevant, but if you want DT has the option of a 54 points rachet. Want bling? Get a pair of DT XMC 1200 ... or go for the less expensive XMC 1501. My 2015 XMC have thousands of miles on them and still going as strong as day one ...


Or because DT is simply a better, more durable hub.

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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Or because DT is simply a better, more durable hub.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, that is what I meant (a bit cryptically) when I said to go for DT "not because of the weight advantage"! (although it is nice bonus.)

They'll outlive my HD3 and my main problem is that they are non-boost: what will I do with them!!!!!


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## Pisgah (Feb 24, 2006)

Davide said:


> [DT Swiss will] outlive my HD3 and my main problem is that they are non-boost: what will I do with them!!!!!


Get a conversion kit. I've done it, and they work great.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

Pisgah said:


> Get a conversion kit. I've done it, and they work great.


I am out of luck for the back ... they are centerlock. Does not matter much my HD3 hopefully will last another 5 years at least.


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## Pisgah (Feb 24, 2006)

Wow, I never though of that. I’ve always used the 6 bolts. That sucks.


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## bridgestone14 (Mar 22, 2005)

russya said:


> Here's the difference of the two hub sets. Rims and spokes(berd) are the same. The I9's have tape and valves, which is why they are a little heavier than the 90 g's. Btw, this shows that you can get a set of wheels in the 1300's with I9's. It's not cheap.... But these wheels are pretty great. If I remember correctly these rims are 30mm Inner. But I'd have to measure to make sure. Btw, it should also be pointed out that the new 240's are a decent amount lighter than the old ones shown here.
> View attachment 1912704
> View attachment 1912705
> View attachment 1912706


Do you have any idea what rim this is? 1265g with a 30mm id rim seems crazy light.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

I just built up a set of Shimano Non Series XTR hubs, Light Bike 27mm Internal rims (UST style, no spoke holes) with Berd spokes. Weighed in at 1340 for the set. Cost was 240/rim on Black Friday, Hubs were 129 for the rear and 59 for the front, spokes were 480. With nipples they came out to just under $1200. The XTR hubs are nice as long as they hold up. Very quiet and spin forever. Time will tell on the durability.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

How was Berd able to tighten their spokes with no spoke holes in the rim bed?
As of 6 months ago that was impossible with their installation technique and tools.

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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> How was Berd able to tighten their spokes with no spoke holes in the rim bed?
> As of 6 months ago that was impossible with their installation technique and tools.


It's always been possible, even from the first days of Berd. It's just yet more of a PITA.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

pctloper said:


> Personally, I hate those loud hubs-----I enjoy riding thru the woods without the feeling of bees swarming--worth 90 grams


My wifes DT Swiss is louder than my i9 hydra.

Sound on all of these sets come down to grease/oil used.

DT with fresh DT pink grease are on par with stock Hydras, but the DT gets louse as the grease breaks in.

Torches are just plain loud. But get a little quieter for a short amount of time with the DT grease.

Also, I don't know where these weights are coming from.

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

FJSnoozer said:


> My wifes DT Swiss is louder than my i9 hydra.
> 
> Also, I don't know where these weights are coming from.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can pretty easily compare like for like via some of the German web shops. They have scale shots of just about everything they sell. Good for figuring out claimed vs actual weights.

I9 Hydra (IS, XD): 455g









INDUSTRY NINE Hub Set MTB Hydra Classic 6-Bolt BOOST | Freehub SRAM X, 747,50 €


INDUSTRY NINE hub set MTB Hydra Classic 6-hole BOOST | Freewheel SRAM XD The Industry Nine Hydra Classic hubs are a real gem on every bike Developed and pro




r2-bike.com





Old, non-EXP 240, IS, XD: 232g









DT SWISS Hub rear 240s Disc 6-Hole for BOOST | 12x148 mm Thru Axle | , 252,50 €


DT SWISS hub rear 240s Disc Center Lock for BOOST | 12x148 mm thru axle | Freewheel SRAM XD Switzerland is known for good chocolate, first-class cheese and




r2-bike.com





Old, non-EXP 240, IS, 15x110 J-Bend: 147g









DT SWISS Hub front 240s Disc 6-hole BOOST | 15x110 mm Thru Axle, 140,50 €


DT SWISS hub front 240s disc 6-hole BOOST | 15x110 mm thru axle DT Swiss hubs have a reputation for being almost indestructible Thanks to high-quality indus




r2-bike.com





So, that's a 76g weight difference.

The new EXPs are significantly lighter than the older version.

Here's another good, albeit lengthy, resource with scale shots:






Actual Hub Weights - NOBL


We've compiled an extensive list of actual hub weights. Find DT Swiss, Onyx, Industry Nine, Hope and more!




noblwheels.com





They report the I9s at 166g + 288g (454g).

Equivalent EXP 240s at 144g + 227g (371g)


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

@Le Duke

I know how to look up scale weights. Look at his delta. It is not 90g. The OP doesn't mention the use of EXP. are we supposed to just assume? Doesn't mention drivetrain or cassette used, spoke, rotor type which is quite important.

OP...I would never go down engagement if I didn't have to personally. Especially not on a trail bike. Even though I have a history of ripping apart i9 freehubs I wouldn't use a DT240 for anything other than racing XC.

The wheelset weight list in hubs is not really felt in acceleration as it is not rotating far from the center axis. It is felt when you flick a rear with your hips of course.

Because of this nit all 1400 gram wheelsets are created equal. My i9 hydra set is 1450 grams with pretty standard spokes(I've laced with Revs and CX rays and will go back to Revs). I am not sure why you need to go With the lightest hub possible to get under 1500? Something else in your build is lacking and you are compensating with the lightest hub you can buy. It may not ride as well or as fast as my 1450 gram set. Do you want to reach some magical quotable threshold like "under 27 pounds", or do you want it to ride well. Sure if you are riding park style stuff or non tech trails I would be content with 54pt. But my riding consist of riding up rock faces where an engagement delay could result in a rock strike that ends the party. I like to climb stupid stuff and nit dab. If this doesn't describe any of your riding and you don't clear rock ledges or make any trials moves, DT it is. Super duper reliable...

If you literally bought tires in bulk from Europe and sold off the heavy ones, you may save well over 90 grams. Or you may think I'm crazy, but take your gram scale to the LBS.

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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

FJSnoozer said:


> ...
> If you literally bought tires in bulk from Europe and sold off the heavy ones, you may save well over 90 grams.
> ...


Ha, don't get me started on this topic!

Could never figure out how adding the same amount of "goop" to the same mold could result in drastically different weights for the result.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

phlegm said:


> Ha, don't get me started on this topic!
> 
> Could never figure out how adding the same amount of "goop" to the same mold could result in drastically different weights for the result.




This and Asking a bro at a bike shop to put your trail tire on a park scale is more awkward than shopping solo for thongs for your GIrl at Victoria Secret.

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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

mikesee said:


> It's always been possible, even from the first days of Berd. It's just yet more of a PITA.


Exactly this, and yes it was a PITA. I definitely think it was worth it but at the time I was questioning it. If you don't have anything else to do gives you a nice project.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

mikesee said:


> It's always been possible, even from the first days of Berd. It's just yet more of a PITA.


I ordered some Carbon Fan rims with holes drilled for the spokes in the rim bed and they were sent directly to Berd.
Charlie called me and told me 'a few of the backside spoke nipple holes are drilled off center and as a result our specialty T torque wrench can't get a straight shot at the nipple and we can't build these wheels up'.
Carbon Fan kindly sent me a replacement rim at no cost and in fact I still have a perfect unused 27.5" rim in my garage with a lone Al nipple stuck inside.

No doubt I'd rather have no nipple holes on my next wheel build.

How are you solving this issue?

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## ghettocruiser (Jun 21, 2008)

phlegm said:


> Ha, don't get me started on this topic!
> 
> Could never figure out how adding the same amount of "goop" to the same mold could result in drastically different weights for the result.


 I tell myself I'm getting a tire tread life bonus, and in 200-300km it will be wore down to what some guy just bought new.

It's almost certainly not true, but that's what I tell myself.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> I ordered some Carbon Fan rims with holes drilled for the spokes in the rim bed and they were sent directly to Berd.
> Charlie called me and told me 'a few of the backside spoke nipple holes are drilled off center and as a result our specialty T torque wrench can't get a straight shot at the nipple and we can't build these wheels up'.
> Carbon Fan kindly sent me a replacement rim at no cost and in fact I still have a perfect unused 27.5" rim in my garage with a lone Al nipple stuck inside.
> 
> ...


I won't touch rims without 'normal' holes. Not for Berd's or any other spokes. Life's too short, and I have too many other wheels to build.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

AKamp said:


> Exactly this, and yes it was a PITA. I definitely think it was worth it but at the time I was questioning it. If you don't have anything else to do gives you a nice project.


If you want to ratchet the frustration level to 11, use a straight pull hub with Berd's next time.

Straight pull hubs + Berd's = over 90 minutes just to _lace_ one wheel.


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

FJSnoozer said:


> @Le Duke
> 
> I know how to look up scale weights. Look at his delta. It is not 90g. The OP doesn't mention the use of EXP. are we supposed to just assume? Doesn't mention drivetrain or cassette used, spoke, rotor type which is quite important.
> 
> ...


I have no real goal weight for my bike but am looking to shed 400-500 grams off of the current wheel set so I may be able to tell a difference. The 90 grams came directly from the company that I'm likely buying from. Looks like I'm going with the Hydra's. I'm not trying to go with the lightest possible, I'm just weighing my options. The wheel set will be around 1650g on 30mmID wheels. I could obvi get it lighter but I think i settled on the 30ID wheels which weigh 440 per rim which is fairly reasonable and I won't have to worry as much about it failing on me.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I don't know how you'd build 1650g wheels with I9s, Berds and 440g rims.

Hydra hubset at 455g. Rims at 880g. 56 Berd spokes = 140g. Nipples, ~25g. That's 1500g. Where is the extra 150g coming from?


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

I've had a few DTs and also have wheels with Hydras, can't go wrong with either imo.

I'm not convinced instant engagement is that big of a deal, you get used to what you have but it is noticeable if you directly compare. 

on sound... I don't like the sound of DT, it makes an uneven noise like whir-whir-whir-whir instead of a steady buzz. You can get Hydras pretty quiet with freehub grease but need to spend 5 min applying it every few rides. No big deal, but must be done if you want to keep them quiet. Also, IMO the sequential engagement of Hydra pawls is a very clever way of solving the biggest issue with pawl ratchets. 

On maintenance, you need to remove the drive ring to get to the DT drive side bearing. This is not a minor issue, it requires a lot of torque and an expensive tool. In the past I broke the tool trying to get the ring out, but it may not have been a genuine DT tool. You need a breaker bar with a 4+ ft handle and a friend to stabilize the wheel, I jam it into a door frame... 

While pricey, it's tempting to just get the new 1240g Roval wheels for the Spur I have coming in May...


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> I don't know how you'd build 1650g wheels with I9s, Berds and 440g rims.
> 
> Hydra hubset at 455g. Rims at 880g. 56 Berd spokes = 140g. Nipples, ~25g. That's 1500g. Where is the extra 150g coming from?


I'm not sure where the Berds came up but it was another person who posted. This build is Sapim D lights, Al nips, 28H straight pull.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Are the D lights due to cost?


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

mikesee said:


> If you want to ratchet the frustration level to 11, use a straight pull hub with Berd's next time.
> 
> Straight pull hubs + Berd's = over 90 minutes just to _lace_ one wheel.


Thats good to know, I would have thought it would be easier but I certainly take your word for it. Planning on building another set for another bike but will be using White Industries for the hubs this time. Hard to find 135 Microspline anywhere else.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> I ordered some Carbon Fan rims with holes drilled for the spokes in the rim bed and they were sent directly to Berd.
> Charlie called me and told me 'a few of the backside spoke nipple holes are drilled off center and as a result our specialty T torque wrench can't get a straight shot at the nipple and we can't build these wheels up'.
> Carbon Fan kindly sent me a replacement rim at no cost and in fact I still have a perfect unused 27.5" rim in my garage with a lone Al nipple stuck inside.
> 
> ...


It was hard to stretch the last few spokes to get the nipple to hold but overall it wasn't bad. Just used traditional nipples here as obviously you can't use internal nipples or anything with a drive head on the inside of the rim. What berd really needs to do is build a tool to prevent twisting while using a traditional spoke wrench, they have one but it isn't very useful. I made one out of a Paint Can opener and a Dremel but that wasn't ideal either. Once I got to higher tensions I used a park SW9 and the Berd wrench. Nice thing is never having to worry about tape again. Figure I spent an extra 2 hrs on the wheels but that is the same time I would save by swapping 2 sets of tires. Maybe I am just bad a taping but I really hate it and seem to have to do it every tire change. One thing I did on the first wheel is had a cross over the valve. When I build wheels I always drop all the spokes in. With the Berds you don't drop the spoke through the hub, you pull the end through. I wasn't thinking and screwed it up leading to the cross over the valve by one spoke. So basically I had to re-lace one side and instead of having all my pulling spokes on the outside of the flanges I had to move the pulling to the inside on the disc side. I told my buddies I planned it that way due to the forces the disc puts on the wheel? Not that they would have noticed anyways


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

FJSnoozer said:


> Are the D lights due to cost?


Yes, its another 200 CAD for CX rays and trying to keep costs down.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

darrylruddock said:


> Yes, its another 200 CAD for CX rays and trying to keep costs down.


I'm not even happy with my CX rays. How much are DT revs?

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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

FJSnoozer said:


> I'm not even happy with my CX rays. How much are DT revs?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The only options are Sapim Race, D-lights and CX Ray. The company is Nobl. I could drop some good weight if I go down in rim ID. The XC/trail set is 27ID Front at 360g and 26ID Rear at 390g. I've been struggling about which to go with-these vs the 440g 30ID rims.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

How about 30mm front, 26mm rear? 

I've been running a wider front than rear for years now. Keeps the rims strikes down in the back, as the rim seems less "exposed", for lack of a better word, and gets me more volume for the front tire.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> How about 30mm front, 26mm rear?
> 
> I've been running a wider front than rear for years now. Keeps the rims strikes down in the back, as the rim seems less "exposed", for lack of a better word, and gets me more volume for the front tire.


Wide rims are a mostly a residue from the embarrassing push of 2.8-3/0 tires that we witnessed a few years ago. A 24-26 wide inner width works perfectly fine for 2.25-2.6 tires. However there is little weight gain using, say, a 30 mm wheel vs a 26. It is probably thanks to the new hubs but the new DT XMC comes in a 1435 grams, the same of my older narrower DT XMC. It is grams but I would consider a narrower width, especially in the back, for example XC725 asymmetric rim profile carbon 650b carbon rims mtb


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I’m not necessarily saying you’re wrong, but, there are plenty of examples of World Cup XC racers using 29 or 30mm internal rims. Some are using the XMC 1200s.

And they aren’t using plus sized tires. 


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but, there are plenty of examples of World Cup XC racers using 29 or 30mm internal rims. Some are using the XMC 1200s.
> 
> And they aren't using plus sized tires.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, I am sure you are right. I just think that is one of those imaginary benefits that are mostly pushed by the industry to sell more stuff ... and then, yes, you are stuck with whatever is on the market. (Do we really need a 35 mm bar, or 148 instead of 142 hub? or frames with a seat angle that is 2 degrees steeper when you could simply design a saddle with longer rails if some people wanted more forward position?) So, yes, you cannot really buy a narrower rim even if you want to. Fortunately it makes little difference, if any, anyway!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Davide said:


> Wide rims are a mostly a residue from the embarrassing push of 2.8-3/0


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## bridgestone14 (Mar 22, 2005)

Yeah, wide rims came before plus tires.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

darrylruddock said:


> The only options are Sapim Race, D-lights and CX Ray. The company is Nobl. I could drop some good weight if I go down in rim ID. The XC/trail set is 27ID Front at 360g and 26ID Rear at 390g. I've been struggling about which to go with-these vs the 440g 30ID rims.


I looked pretty heavily at NOBL and the same rims you're looking at.

My worry, is that the 30mm rims (TR37's) aren't just heavier because they are wider. They have a beefier carbon layup. And so going with an XC/Trail strength rim on the back to get something narrower/lighter, seems dangerous to me.

If the rims were offered in the same strength, but different widths (a la the DT EX511 and EX471), I'd be much more interested in something like that.

Just seems like at the moment, you have to purchase the width, and usage category together.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

darrylruddock said:


> The only options are Sapim Race, D-lights and CX Ray. The company is Nobl. I could drop some good weight if I go down in rim ID. The XC/trail set is 27ID Front at 360g and 26ID Rear at 390g. I've been struggling about which to go with-these vs the 440g 30ID rims.


440g is a lot for a carbon rim on an xc bike. The XC/Trail set looks pretty nice.


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

ocnLogan said:


> I looked pretty heavily at NOBL and the same rims you're looking at.
> 
> My worry, is that the 30mm rims (TR37's) aren't just heavier because they are wider. They have a beefier carbon layup. And so going with an XC/Trail strength rim on the back to get something narrower/lighter, seems dangerous to me.
> 
> ...


I'm actually looking at the TR36's just due to the fact they are lighter than the 37's By another 100 grams or so and still have the same wider ID. They are both a little heavier than I would like for my local trails which are def XC/trail and not enduro. The 32's have lifetime crash replacement which is amazing so no worries there.


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

davec113 said:


> 440g is a lot for a carbon rim on an xc bike. The XC/Trail set looks pretty nice.


Agreed, I am sure I would be happy on them and would work well on my local trails I ride 95% of the time.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

ocnLogan said:


> My worry, is that the 30mm rims (TR37's) aren't just heavier because they are wider. They have a beefier carbon layup. And so going with an XC/Trail strength rim on the back to get something narrower/lighter, seems dangerous to me.


Yep, that can be a problem, but check rim weight accurately and you can find 30 mm at a decent weight (again DT XMC). Or just get a 26-28 wide rim ... plenty width for any tire you might end up using.


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

Davide said:


> Yep, that can be a problem, but check rim weight accurately and you can find 30 mm at a decent weight (again DT XMC). Or just get a 26-28 wide rim ... plenty width for any tire you might end up using.


Yeah those XMC 1200 nice sweet but cost an arm and a leg and likely my marriage! Looks like a big reason they get to that weight is the 180 hubs. I'm curious to know what rim only weight is. I'm guessing just over 400g?


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

If I was going to spend big $ I'd go Roval... 1240g, lifetime warranty, crash replacement... so tempting!









Control SL


1240 grams is an obscenely light weight when talking about mountain bike wheelsets, the kind of weight that XC racers dream about. But light weight alone is no longer enough. So, we engineered the new Control SL wheels to be sharp handling, smooth riding, extra durable, and 22% less likely to...




rovalcomponents.com


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

darrylruddock said:


> Yeah those XMC 1200 nice sweet but cost an arm and a leg and likely my marriage! Looks like a big reason they get to that weight is the 180 hubs. I'm curious to know what rim only weight is. I'm guessing just over 400g?


If you use the DT Swiss spoke calculator with the known components, yeah, it's a 400+ gram rim.

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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

darrylruddock said:


> Yeah those XMC 1200 nice sweet but cost an arm and a leg and likely my marriage! Looks like a big reason they get to that weight is the 180 hubs. I'm curious to know what rim only weight is. I'm guessing just over 400g?


It is probably just around 400-420, that in carbon is a VERY strong wheel. I bought mine from Europe when the Euro was low, and they were not too bad (I think $1600). But you could get a light bicycle rim/wheel with 240 hubs for much less money and be very happy. I have a left over ridiculous light set (1180 grams) from them that at my weight is hanging in there very well ... add 200 grams for stronger rims and you are set ...


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## austinzippy (Apr 5, 2010)

My n is low, but I’m going back to 240s. My torch are both difficult to service, and need servicing / bearing removed and the casing greased regularly to stop creaking. For the longest time I thought it was the spokes creaking, but it’s the casing and bearing interfaces. 3 degree Engagement is cool, but I didn’t notice much usable difference when on the ibis logo 10degree hubs. I do hear the exp design on the new 240s has an engagement issue, hope this is a manufacturing defect vs design defect.


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## darrylruddock (Oct 17, 2019)

austinzippy said:


> My n is low, but I'm going back to 240s. My torch are both difficult to service, and need servicing / bearing removed and the casing greased regularly to stop creaking. For the longest time I thought it was the spokes creaking, but it's the casing and bearing interfaces. 3 degree Engagement is cool, but I didn't notice much usable difference when on the ibis logo 10degree hubs. I do hear the exp design on the new 240s has an engagement issue, hope this is a manufacturing defect vs design defect.


I can't say I have rode torches or hydras but from reviews it sounds like the hydras are in a different league in almost every way from ease of service to noise(less) and engagement is .69 degrees or something crazy like that. 
I did order the Nobl TR32's on hydras. Haven't got them yet But I'll likely post a review when i ride them a few times.


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## djr21589 (Oct 23, 2020)

darrylruddock said:


> I can't say I have rode torches or hydras but from reviews it sounds like the hydras are in a different league in almost every way from ease of service to noise(less) and engagement is .69 degrees or something crazy like that.
> I did order the Nobl TR32's on hydras. Haven't got them yet But I'll likely post a review when i ride them a few times.


I'm hoping all of the above is true, I'm having the same wheels built. I was originally going with the 240 EXPs until I started reading about the issues.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

I went with Hydras for new wheels for my Spur... I already have a set on my Enduro and while the lower weight of the DTs is tempting the Hydras engagement and sound (w/grease) is much better. New EXP issues also helped make the choice clear.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

The DT Swiss 240 and 180 are the only lightweight rear hubs that you can count on to be good. And they really are. 

Beyond that, for moderate-weight hubs, I'd rank Hope above both I9 and Project 321, or really anything else.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

chomxxo said:


> The DT Swiss 240 and 180 are the only lightweight rear hubs that you can count on to be good. And they really are.
> 
> Beyond that, for moderate-weight hubs, I'd rank Hope above both I9 and Project 321, or really anything else.


Except EXP seems to be having some issues and the design doesn't lend it's self to quick engagement. I've also went to take the drive side bearing out and broke the tool and have bent axles. The original design is still the best hub ever made though, overall, IMO... hopefully they iron out the EXP system.

I9 Hydra has eliminated the Achilles heel of pawl designs, non-simultaneous engagement of pawls and turned it into an asset. It's a brilliant idea and seems to work reliably IRL too. Going back and forth between Hydra and DT makes DT feel like it's sloppy and it even sounds sloppy in comparison with it's uneven whir-whir-whir, lol...

I also have a P321 wheelset (I know...) and so far it doesn't quite deliver on all promises all at once. I can't get super-low-drag AND have it actually hold oil. Magnets have fallen out and I went to the loud pawls and slower engagement, but having more pawls engage at once. Probably didn't need to, and I can say when the hub is at it's best it can be both quiet, fast engagement, low-drag and pretty light. Also, while not 100% reliable the customer service is EXCELLENT. Everything breaks, P321 will take care of you.

Anyways, IMO Hydra is the clear choice and made in the USA.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

But as the OP said, I9 Hydra weighs 90g more than a DT Swiss 240. Not even mentioning the 180, these aren’t in the same class as the Hydra. They are lightweight racing hubs and nothing else can match them for durability at that weight. 

An example of a hub in that weight class that I wouldn’t trust is Stan’s.

I’ll say again that for moderate weight hubs, I have owned I9 and I prefer Hope. They’re easy to break down and rebuild, convertible with long term support for conversion kits, and have smooth (albeit loud like I9) engagement like a watch. 

I have a Hope Pro II Evo that began its life 10 years ago as QR 135, converted it to 142, and then Boost 148. I cleaned and re-greased the pawls and springs myself. Still going strong. Got another set of Hope Pro 4s that I built a set of gravel wheels with and converted from QR to through-axle. 


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## jbrettk123 (10 mo ago)

AKamp said:


> I just built up a set of Shimano Non Series XTR hubs, Light Bike 27mm Internal rims (UST style, no spoke holes) with Berd spokes. Weighed in at 1340 for the set. Cost was 240/rim on Black Friday, Hubs were 129 for the rear and 59 for the front, spokes were 480. With nipples they came out to just under $1200. The XTR hubs are nice as long as they hold up. Very quiet and spin forever. Time will tell on the durability.


Sorry, I know this is an older thread, but we’re you able to get the berd spokes through light bike? Or did you have to send them to Berd separately? I didn’t know that was even an option on the website. I was set on the CX Rays, but would much rather get the Berds if they are an option and the white spokes looks awesome IMO.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

Just built up some BTLOS rims, XTR hubs and Berds, 1258g's and I think it was about 1200 bucks, could have been 1300. You would be at about 800 with steel spokes and 1500g.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

jbrettk123 said:


> Sorry, I know this is an older thread, but we’re you able to get the berd spokes through light bike? Or did you have to send them to Berd separately? I didn’t know that was even an option on the website. I was set on the CX Rays, but would much rather get the Berds if they are an option and the white spokes looks awesome IMO.


this is funny, I just responded again to a thread where the last post was a question for me. Who would have thought. Both sets of wheels I built, Light Bike didn't build them. You can pick up XTR hubs on Universal right now for 250 for the pair. Pretty screaming deal for this quality and I would put them up against anything else I have ridden. This last set of wheels was my first set of BTLOS rims. I don't know if they are really any different than the Light Bike. The "real XTR" was a bit lighter than the off brand "XTR M900 stuff". Other than that they sound and roll about the same.


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## jbrettk123 (10 mo ago)

AKamp said:


> this is funny, I just responded again to a thread where the last post was a question for me. Who would have thought. Both sets of wheels I built, Light Bike didn't build them. You can pick up XTR hubs on Universal right now for 250 for the pair. Pretty screaming deal for this quality and I would put them up against anything else I have ridden. This last set of wheels was my first set of BTLOS rims. I don't know if they are really any different than the Light Bike. The "real XTR" was a bit lighter than the off brand "XTR M900 stuff". Other than that they sound and roll about the same.


Awesome, $250 for the pair is a great deal. Thanks very much. I also found out that light bicycle can build wheels w Berd spokes as well. You just have to ask for them.


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## jbrettk123 (10 mo ago)

AKamp said:


> Just built up some BTLOS rims, XTR hubs and Berds, 1258g's and I think it was about 1200 bucks, could have been 1300. You would be at about 800 with steel spokes and 1500g.


Can you send the link to what website you built these at? Was it at universal? I went to BTLOS and couldn’t get an option for XTR HUBS OR Berd spokes, but maybe you just have to ask like at light bicycle. Thanks


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

I purchased everything separately and built them myself. Pretty sure you could buy hubs and rims and send those to berd. Not sure how much cheaper that would be them just their wheels.


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## bridgestone14 (Mar 22, 2005)

Universal Cycles -- Search Products, Categories, Companies


Universal Cycles - 30,000+ mountain & road cycling parts. Online & in Portland Oregon since 1997. West Coast & Midwest warehouses. Instant price matches. 29er, BMX, freeride, single speed, & downhill products.




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That is universal cycles, great people, always been good to me. I sent hubs and carbonfan rims to Berd to be build, turn around was about 5 weeks. That was a while back though.


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## jbrettk123 (10 mo ago)

AKamp said:


> I purchased everything separately and built them myself. Pretty sure you could buy hubs and rims and send those to berd. Not sure how much cheaper that would be them just their wheels.


Got ya, well thanks for the reply!


AKamp said:


> I purchased everything separately and built them myself. Pretty sure you could buy hubs and rims and send those to berd. Not sure how much cheaper that would be them just their wheels.


got ya, I don’t know if I would have the time to build by hand, but who knows, it would be good to learn how too though.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

jbrettk123 said:


> got ya, I don’t know if I would have the time to build by hand, but who knows, it would be good to learn how too though.


It's very easy. Lots of instruction online. It takes a while though, maybe a few hours if you've never done it before and are mechanically inclined. Potentially much longer though.


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