# For or Against Pedal Assist E-MTBs in the USA



## ThankYouJerry (Aug 6, 2017)

Vote for your opinion.


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Vbrakes.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

You'd need to specify what spec of pedal assist emtb you're referring to before I could vote. 

250w 15.5 mph
250w 20 mph
750w 20 mph


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

250w 20mph is my vote.


----------



## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

not a very good poll. left one important option out. 

"emtb's should be allowed on motorized trails or bike paths only"

It's really not a matter of all or nothing. emtbs have some access. They currently just don't have "ALL" access.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah, there's not enough info here to vote. I'd vote as follows:
-For access to 100% for 15.5mph/250w (EU class 1) limited bikes.
-For some access for 20mph/250w limited bikes.
-Against access for all bikes over 20mph/250w limit.

I guess I'll cast a vote for "only with disabilities" given that the current US class 1 standard (20mph, 750w) is well beyond what I think is justified if we want to maintain the existing user experience for everyone else. 

-Walt


----------



## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

I'd be interested in seeing the results of this poll if it was taken in a mountain bike forum.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mileslong said:


> I'd be interested in seeing the results of this poll if it was taken in a mountain bike forum.


what do you think mtbr.com is if not a mountain bike forum?


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> what do you think mtbr.com is if not a mountain bike forum?


I could have swore I was in a mtb forum..... was I wrong?


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

The results would likely be very different if the poll was posted in General.


----------



## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> what do you think mtbr.com is if not a mountain bike forum?


My bad, it should have been "thread" not "forum".


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> The results would likely be very different if the poll was posted in General.


Its a poll... too many variables. I wouldn't read much into it.


----------



## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> The results would likely be very different if the poll was posted in General.


And perhaps almost the same if the poll were posted to broader audience on Reddit.


----------



## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

mileslong said:


> I'd be interested in seeing the results of this poll if it was taken in a mountain bike forum.


Because you don't like the results thus far.

You wouldn't be interested in seeing the results if the poll were taken on a technology forum, e.g. Anandtech.

As popular as MTB has become, it's still a rather obscure sport to most.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Well, I tried to post a similar poll in the general firum, but it automatically went to the ReCycle forum. Interesting.


----------



## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Well, I tried to post a similar poll in the general firum, but it automatically went to the ReCycle forum. Interesting.











Classy.

:lol: ut:


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

EricTheDood said:


> View attachment 1177980
> 
> 
> Classy.
> ...


Damn right. I'll say that to your face if I have the opportunity. I wouldn't even hide behind my "friends" by tattling. I prefer to settle my differences behind closed doors, you know, man to man.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

mileslong said:


> I'd be interested in seeing the results of this poll if it was taken in a mountain bike forum.


Me too, which is why I tried to create a similar poll in the general forum. Apparently, admin thinks e-mtbs are too different from mountain bikes to discuss in the mountain bikes sections.



Klurejr said:


> what do you think mtbr.com is if not a mountain bike forum?


I'm not sure, anymore. Either way, you know exactly what he meant.



ALimon said:


> I could have swore I was in a mtb forum..... was I wrong?


If you want to argue semantics like klurejr, then maybe?



life behind bars said:


> The results would likely be very different if the poll was posted in General.


Completely different.



EricTheDood said:


> And perhaps almost the same if the poll were posted to broader audience on Reddit.


No. There would be an overwhelming amount of "I don't cares", but most mountain bikers with any awareness of trail issues and user conflicts would be wary of e-mtbs.


----------



## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

One must remember that the 1st amendment may not apply when participating on privately held interwebz forums; that is as it should be.

Check this thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/off-camber-off-topic/thread-sanitation-1066482.html


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

I realize that. It appears obvious that mtbr.com believes that e-mtbs are so different from mountain bikes that the mere mention of them does not belong in the mountain bike sections.


----------



## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Damn right. I'll say that to your face if I have the opportunity.


Yea I'm sure you would, Mr. Internet Chest Thumper.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Nevermind. I'm trying to be a better person. In fact, I'm pretty much done with emtbr.com. Try not to destroy trail access for those people that actually put in the hard work and understand the challenges to trail access. I'll show myself out.


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I realize that. It appears obvious that mtbr.com believes that e-mtbs are so different from mountain bikes that the mere mention of them does not belong in the mountain bike sections.


One day mtbr will evolve into emtbr. Not because they probably want to, but because to stay relevant they will have to. That day is still far away, but not as far one might think.


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Wow 73 whole votes! And almost half for the full monty with more on the fence. Polls don't mean poo at those type of numbers. All it says here is that people on an e mtb forum are for e mtb's and there are a few that are against them. You can tell that by reading any thread on here. 

The proof will be how much market share they eventually shake out at in the future and where they are going to be allowed to travel. And for that you need a crystal ball, not a poll.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

ALimon said:


> One day mtbr will evolve into emtbr. Not because they probably want to, but because to stay relevant they will have to. That day is still far away, but not as far one might think.


 Bikes don't have motors. Evolve? Not.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mileslong said:


> My bad, it should have been "thread" not "forum".


Now I see what you are getting at, you meant the results would be different if this poll was posted in the General Section of mtbr as opposed to the eBike section of mtbr.

mtbr.com is a mountain biking forum that has various sections for the different aspects of mountain biking. One of those sections is for eBikes.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

life behind bars said:


> The results would likely be very different if the poll was posted in General.


yup.


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

leeboh said:


> Bikes don't have motors. Evolve? Not.


In 10 years most of the bikes you will see will have a motor.

It's happening!


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Seriously, you really think everyone will want a motor on their bike?

So how do you explain people choosing to hike when they can ride, choosing to pedal when they could have a moto, etc...

Just because you want motor assist doesn't mean everyone wants motor assist.

Like many people have said on this forum: "If I wanted a motor, I'd get a motorcycle".

Another way to understand demand is the idea that adding a motor/battery will add cost, complexity, and weight. These add ons will turn off a fair number of riders.

It ain't rocket science.

This was a dumb poll, it demonstrated nothing more than what most of us could figure out from reading this forum.



ALimon said:


> In 10 years most of the bikes you will see will have a motor.
> 
> It's happening!


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

"Pedal Assist" is a weird way to label an e-bike; makes it sound like the rider pedals to add assistance to the motor. Actually kind of how I ride Class 2 when the hill's too steep/load too heavy and I need to pedal to keep going forward. Honestly; e-bikes are "motor assisted" pedaling devices.


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> Seriously, you really think everyone will want a motor on their bike?
> 
> So how do you explain people choosing to hike when they can ride, choosing to pedal when they could have a moto, etc...
> 
> ...


First off, I don't ride a motor assist bike, but Its a certainty I will one day.. Secondly, it's not about what either of us prefer to ride. It's about what the consumer wants. I've made a lot of money as an investor. Part of being a smart investor is being able to see where the future is going and getting your money in early before it gets there. E bikes are a no brainer. They're going to dominate bikes sales in the very near future.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Why is it that most e-bike supporters that claim e-mtbs are the future and the evolution of the mountain bike are new to the sport, or at least new to these forums? 樂. Sorry, I got sidetracked on my way out.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

ALimon said:


> First off, I don't ride a motor assist bike, but Its a certainty I will one day.. Secondly, it's not about what either of us prefer to ride. It's about what the consumer wants. I've made a lot of money as an investor. Part of being a smart investor is being able to see where the future is going and getting your money in early before it gets there. E bikes are a no brainer. They're going to dominate bikes sales in the very near future.


As I've said before and Nurse Ben said again, motorcycles have been around a long time yet many of us choose to ride bicycles. Heck, a lot of folks on this site do ride motorcycles AND they still ride bicycles. For a lot of us, it's not just about the downhills; we don't ride up hill just for the chance to go down hill. People still backpack even though there are plenty of campsites you can drive right up to, or pull your RV up to.

None of us actually know the future of ebikes in the US.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Being a savy investor does not make you a prophet, nor does it make you wise about every industry.

What is the market for ebikes, ie how many additional users would own a bike if it's assisted and will those users buy an ebike if one is available?

In many ways, your market is already saturated; current bike owners, many of whom do not have the money or desire to buy another bike, ebike or non ebike. Your potential market is in upgrades and new adoptors such as people who don't currently have a bike.

Ebikes are more expensive, heavier, and complicated than a non ebike, which will prevent them from being anything more than a niche, popular with certain populations (physically impaired/limited), but they will they no more dominate bicycle sales than motorcycles dominate "bike" sales.

Keep in mind one very important reality: Bike riding is a niche to begin with, most people don't own a bike. Most people do not exercise. The percentage of people who do outside activity is decreasing over time. In other words, you have a decreasing market size, as well as a niche within a niche.

This ^ is why I'm not that worried about ebikes taking over the trails.



ALimon said:


> First off, I don't ride a motor assist bike, but Its a certainty I will one day.. Secondly, it's not about what either of us prefer to ride. It's about what the consumer wants. I've made a lot of money as an investor. Part of being a smart investor is being able to see where the future is going and getting your money in early before it gets there. E bikes are a no brainer. They're going to dominate bikes sales in the very near future.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> Being a savy investor does not make you a prophet, nor does it make you wise about every industry.
> 
> What is the market for ebikes, ie how many additional users would own a bike if it's assisted and will those users buy an ebike if one is available?
> 
> ...


Pretty much.

While ebikes will boom in other places in the world, specifically as transportation, I have a hard time seeing non bike riding Mr & Mrs Joe Average ever coming out of the indoors to excercise on a bicycle even if it has a motor in the US, since in almost all areas of the country, we have a lousy bike infrastructure, and long distances between the places everyone drives to in suburbia. People are going to continue to drive because they have far to go, they have kids and stuff to haul, and they really don't like being outside except on nice days. For some segments of the population, they make a ton of sense, but it's minor really compared to the majority. They will sell as a recreational toy, but not in massive numbers, they're fairly expensive, along the lines of @$800-1000 for a marginal bike path worthy ebike.

The main thing holding back etmb sales will be access, and access on public property isn't driven by consumer demand. At all. Access may grow in the US, but it also might very well shrink, it's difficult to predict IMO, I think there are problems waiting in the wings that the industry has enabled and ignored.


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> Being a savy investor does not make you a prophet, nor does it make you wise about every industry.
> 
> What is the market for ebikes, ie how many additional users would own a bike if it's assisted and will those users buy an ebike if one is available?
> 
> ...


The market is not saturated. Thats an opinion not a fact.

Ebikes are not complicated. They're actually pretty straightforward. As for expensive? Maybe now, but not for long. Heavier? Not for long. The Levo is 50lbs, pivot now has a burly e mtb at 43lbs. They said they will be sub 40lbs very soon. Also, Anyone can convert a regular bike to an e bike with pedal assist for $600.

You're right about biking being a niche. That's what makes the future of e bikes even more of a threat to the pedal bike as we know it. It won't make it too difficult to become the majority. Every manufacturer is now producing an e mtb or soon will be. They're not building them to collect dust. They have a good idea of what's coming.

And you're also right about most people don't exercise and exercise decreases over time. That's exactly where the pedal assist bike will thrive. It's the perfect tool to get the less active off the sofa and into the outdoors. Not too mention those with injuries, older folks, handicapped etc...

Right now I pedal without assist., one day Father Time will catch up to me and make pedaling without asssit difficult. It's nice to know I have an alternative to keep me active and enjoying the outdoors along with the happiness of being on a bike.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Growth (or the opposite) will be interesting to follow. If I were predicting, it would be the middle of the extreme opinions here. I have a hard time imagining that all of the major and most minor companies got it wrong by flooding the market with new e-models. Needless to say, I voted for PAS, but if it doesn't happen, I've still had three great years of e-MTB, and the Good Lord willing, many more to come.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

It does seems like there are a lot of players getting into it, bicycle manufacturers, new companies and a couple of motorcycle manufacturers; a lot more than the market will be able to sustain. Decent eMTBs won't come down all that much in price, look how expensive decent mountain bikes are. As I've said before, it's the cheap ebikes and do-it-your-self ebikes that really worry me, I doubt many diy'ers will be too worried about meeting regulations.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

chazpat said:


> It does seems like there are a lot of players getting into it, bicycle manufacturers, new companies and a couple of motorcycle manufacturers; a lot more than the market will be able to sustain. Decent eMTBs won't come down all that much in price, look how expensive decent mountain bikes are. As I've said before, it's the cheap ebikes and do-it-your-self ebikes that really worry me, I doubt many diy'ers will be too worried about meeting regulations.


Good point about DIY; there are no regulations yet, and I doubt there'll be any for awhile. Then, when the regulations are adopted, they will be difficult to administer. Maybe of interest; of the numerous e-MTB's that I've encountered dirt riding, only two (mine and my wife's) were DIY.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chazpat said:


> Decent eMTBs won't come down all that much in price, look how expensive decent mountain bikes are.


Why do you think price will keep them from being popular? Every mtb I see on the trail seems to be $2,000+ so I don't see why some people wouldn't pay the same for an electrified option. Prices will come down as the technology matures and the sport develops.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ALimon said:


> First off, I don't ride a motor assist bike, but Its a certainty I will one day.. Secondly, it's not about what either of us prefer to ride. It's about what the consumer wants. I've made a lot of money as an investor. Part of being a smart investor is being able to see where the future is going and getting your money in early before it gets there. E bikes are a no brainer. They're going to dominate bikes sales in the very near future.


Segway.

Nuff said.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Most of America sits their fat asses on the couch or in their car all day, and you are all worked up on whether or not eBikes are bicycles or not.

Just ride your own damn bicycle and have fun doing it.

I haven't been on a racetrack (motorcycle) in about a year and a half.


----------



## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

ALimon said:


> First off, I don't ride a motor assist bike, but Its a certainty I will one day.. Secondly, it's not about what either of us prefer to ride. It's about what the consumer wants. I've made a lot of money as an investor. Part of being a smart investor is being able to see where the future is going and getting your money in early before it gets there. E bikes are a no brainer. They're going to dominate bikes sales in the very near future.


Lol, being an "investor" now a days is like walking down the street and finding a winning lotto ticket on every corner. "I too" have made a lot of money as an "investor"... That doesn't make me Nostradamus. Good luck when the market crashes in a year.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

ALimon said:


> In 10 years most of the bikes you will see will have a motor.
> 
> It's happening!


Is this one of the facts you talk about?

This is one of the most asinine statements I have read on this subject. Little kids, people that ride for exercise, real mountain bikers will not be riding motors, ever.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Why do you think price will keep them from being popular? Every mtb I see on the trail seems to be $2,000+ so I don't see why some people wouldn't pay the same for an electrified option. Prices will come down as the technology matures and the sport develops.


True, but it's still a high price of entry for a lot of people. Seems like a lot of mountain bikers start off with a low price bike, I know I did. Which is why I've mentioned a fear of cheap Chinese ebikes hitting the trails.


----------



## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

ALimon said:


> In 10 years most of the bikes you will see will have a motor.
> 
> It's happening!


Maybe most of the e-bikes *you* see but I'll be riding a MTB with the other mountain bikers.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chazpat said:


> True, but it's still a high price of entry for a lot of people. Seems like a lot of mountain bikers start off with a low price bike, I know I did. Which is why I've mentioned a fear of cheap Chinese ebikes hitting the trails.


I started off cheap too but the market is changing IMO, mountain biking is the new golf and those guys aren't fooling around with $1000 rigs. I foresee ebikes being the next "upgrade" and replacing someone's $5,000 mountain bike rather than it being an entire new sport with new participants.


----------



## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> I started off cheap too .


Opposite for me, brought a Levo, and the Mrs loved it as well, so brought her a Magnum MI5. Both are very well used.



J.B. Weld said:


> but the market is changing IMO, mountain biking is the new golf and they aren't fooling around with $1000 rigs. I foresee ebikes being the next "upgrade" and replacing someone's $5,000 mountain bike rather than it being an entire new sport with new participants.


I agree with this your statement J.B. Everyone that have test ridden either of our Emtbs have been very impressed, including some die hard riders. Several people that I have met on the trails who I have let test ride my levo stated that they would consider an emtb when they next upgraded.


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Don't have even a foggy idea what's going to happen 3 years from now, but I know I'll have a new bike by then, and that it's a safe bet that I'd go through 4+ new bikes 10 years from now. Many chances to consider options when they come up. xD

For all I know, VR could take off and we'll be having fun on "hoverboards", tethered to some linkage arm, in the comfort of our homes, and bikes could simply be fashionable novelties. The age of having everything delivered to us, including the adventure of exploring the outside world...


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Is this one of the facts you talk about?
> 
> This is one of the most asinine statements I have read on this subject. Little kids, people that ride for exercise, real mountain bikers will not be riding motors, ever.


What exactly is a "real mountain biker?" Lol. This oughta be good.


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Sidewalk said:


> Most of America sits their fat asses on the couch or in their car all day, and you are all worked up on whether or not eBikes are bicycles or not.
> 
> Just ride your own damn bicycle and have fun doing it.
> 
> I haven't been on a racetrack (motorcycle) in about a year and a half.


There's always going to be those who can't ride their own damn bicycle without worrying about what others are riding. Misery loves company.


----------



## 274898 (Nov 29, 2005)

Not sure what the uproar is about e-bikes. I have no problem with e-bikes. The older I get, the more nagging injuries start to surface. The fact is, that there will be a time when everyone will not be able to ride up the rides that want to. E-bikes just allow people to extend their mountain biking for much longer. To say that they damage trails more is hogwash. I have seen a few e-bikes on the trails and didn't really notice their were e-bikes until I caught eye of the frame. However, I do think that if you are healthy and able, you should ride a non-ebike just for good fitness and health.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

ALimon said:


> There's always going to be those who can't ride their own damn bicycle without worrying about what others are riding. Misery loves company.


It's tough to ride your own damn bicycle when you lose trail access.



aliikane said:


> Not sure what the uproar is about e-bikes. I have no problem with e-bikes. The older I get, the more nagging injuries start to surface. The fact is, that there will be a time when everyone will not be able to ride up the rides that want to. E-bikes just allow people to extend their mountain biking for much longer. To say that they damage trails more is hogwash. I have seen a few e-bikes on the trails and didn't really notice their were e-bikes until I caught eye of the frame. However, I do think that if you are healthy and able, you should ride a non-ebike just for good fitness and health.


I can't think of a single injury, disability, or age-related event that would require pedal-assist. The bikes are heavier and require more strength to actually move around on a mountain bike trail. According to the e-supporters here, all they do is allow them to keep up with their more fit buddies.

As for trail damage, nobody is saying e-bikes (in their current guise) cause more trail damage. If you guys would actually read other threads, it's about unregulated and/or illegally modified e-peds. It's the same discussion every time a new e-poster joins the forum without actually knowing what they are talking about. Somehow, aliikane has missed every previous discussion about e-bikes since 2005.



ALimon said:


> What exactly is a "real mountain biker?" Lol. This oughta be good.


This is easy. A real mountain biker is a biker that rides a real mountain bike.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Bottom line for me is that eMTB is a blast, something some e-'s seem to ignore. Not as tough as I was, but that doesn't matter since my wife and I gleefully ride MTB, occasionally eMTB, together. Have never encountered the infamous "rebel with 10,000 watts of power" or any instance where eMTB compromised MTB activity, and would stop riding eMTB if there was any indication of trouble (forums excepted).


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

102 people have voted now, so we are starting to get some semblance of what some of the users on the site think about this.

Considering over the last 6 months there have been on average 250 new users sign up on mtbr each month, this poll still has not scratched the surface of the user base, probably just the small group that visit the ebike section.


----------



## jestep (Jul 23, 2004)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I can't think of a single injury, disability, or age-related event that would require pedal-assist. The bikes are heavier and require more strength to actually move around on a mountain bike trail. According to the e-supporters here, all they do is allow them to keep up with their more fit buddies.


Maybe not on technical trail riding, but my grandfather was able to ride for a good 4 or 5 years after he no longer felt comfortable on a normal bike using an e bike. I don't think it would apply to this poll, but they can be a big benefit for elderly commuting and mobility.

As far as trails go, I'm dead against them. Go ride trails open to motorcycles if you need a motor on your bike.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I didn't vote because I thought the wording was poor. Mountain bikes don't have 100% trail access, why should electric bikes? I guess the second option is the closest match for me though.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I can't think of a single injury, disability, or age-related event that would require pedal-assist.


My sister has Cystic Fibrosis and limited lung capacity that comes along with it.
Pedal assist would work well for her if she ever decides it's something she wants to try.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

mountainbiker24 said:


> It's tough to ride your own damn bicycle when you lose trail access.


Assholes will cause that, not eBikes. Put the blame where it belongs. I ride every week with someone on an eBike, he's the only one. You would not know he was on an eBike if you didn't look closely at his bike (we ride at night after work). His bike has nothing to do with it. He also rides about 15 miles each way on the road to get to the trails instead of driving.

Granted, when possible, I take the commuter train to do the same, an option I have that he doesn't.



mountainbiker24 said:


> I can't think of a single injury, disability, or age-related event that would require pedal-assist.


You've lived a sheltered life.



mountainbiker24 said:


> This is easy. A real mountain biker is a biker that rides a real mountain bike.


What's a "real mountain bike"?


----------



## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

I vote for eMTBs on eMTB trails.

I vote against eMTBs on MTB trails.

-F


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> My sister has Cystic Fibrosis and limited lung capacity that comes along with it.
> Pedal assist would work well for her if she ever decides it's something she wants to try.


Would riding a 45 pound e-bike on mountain bike trails be a good option for her?



jestep said:


> Maybe not on technical trail riding, but my grandfather was able to ride for a good 4 or 5 years after he no longer felt comfortable on a normal bike using an e bike. I don't think it would apply to this poll, but they can be a big benefit for elderly commuting and mobility.
> 
> As far as trails go, I'm dead against them. Go ride trails open to motorcycles if you need a motor on your bike.


I should have clarified that I was referring to mountain bike trails. I agree that e-bikes are absolutely perfect for commuting.



Sidewalk said:


> Assholes will cause that, not eBikes. Put the blame where it belongs. I ride every week with someone on an eBike, he's the only one. You would not know he was on an eBike if you didn't look closely at his bike (we ride at night after work). His bike has nothing to do with it. He also rides about 15 miles each way on the road to get to the trails instead of driving.
> 
> Granted, when possible, I take the commuter train to do the same, an option I have that he doesn't.
> 
> ...


I have been fortunate, but you didn't provide anything to convince me otherwise. I have seen a couple e-bikes fly by me on climbs, and I'm happy I wasn't riding down at the speeds they were climbing.

A real mountain bike is a bicycle designed for offroad cycling. Mopeds are not included.


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

mountainbiker24 said:


> It's tough to ride your own damn bicycle when you lose trail access.
> 
> I can't think of a single injury, disability, or age-related event that would require pedal-assist. The bikes are heavier and require more strength to actually move around on a mountain bike trail. According to the e-supporters here, all they do is allow them to keep up with their more fit buddies.
> 
> ...


How can you comment on a pas e bike if you're never ridden one? It's always concerning when you hear critics speak of them, yet they have no experience on them. To answer your question, yes they are slightly heavier. But let's not act like they're 200lb bikes. We're talking 15 lbs. They do not require more strength to handle. They are very handicapped, elderly friendly.

You seriously can't think of a single injury, disability or age related event that would require a pedal asssist bike? What?!?!?! I'm not even going to respond to such rubbish. No disrespect, but that's just plain ole ignorant.

And btw..... there's no such thing as a "real mountain biker". Only mountain bikers exist.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Would riding a 45 pound e-bike on mountain bike trails be a good option for her?


Great option actually. 
Why wouldn't it be?


----------



## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Stating it simply as "I am for/against/with exceptions trail access" is far too simplistic.

How is "trail" being defined, for example? Are we talking trails that are already approved for motorized use? Trails that don't currently allow motorized use?

Personally, I have no issue with e-bikes on pathways and trails where motorized use is already allowed.

I do not support e-bikes on trails where motorized use is not currently allowed, with the exception of those who have legitimate[/i] disabilities (being out of shape is not a legit reason, imo).


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> My sister has Cystic Fibrosis and limited lung capacity that comes along with it.
> Pedal assist would work well for her if she ever decides it's something she wants to try.


SHM, wish we weren't on opposite coasts; I'd love to see the smile on her face when she rode my wife's bike. Plus, you and I could have a beer (or six) while she tested it.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

ALimon said:


> How can you comment on a pas e bike if you're never ridden one? It's always concerning when you hear critics speak of them, yet they have no experience on them. To answer your question, yes they are slightly heavier. But let's not act like they're 200lb bikes. We're talking 15 lbs. They do not require more strength to handle. They are very handicapped, elderly friendly.
> 
> You seriously can't think of a single injury, disability or age related event that would require a pedal asssist bike? What?!?!?! I'm not even going to respond to such rubbish. No disrespect, but that's just plain ole ignorant.
> 
> And btw..... there's no such thing as a "real mountain biker". Only mountain bikers exist.


Why do you assume I have never ridden an e-bike?

You don't think it's more challenging for an elderly or disabled person to handle 50% heavier bike on roots, rocks, and turns?

Since I'm so ignorant, why don't you enlighten me? What handicap requires a pedal-assist? I'm not talking about making things easier. It seems to me that people that might "require" pedal-assist either shouldn't be on a mountain bike at all or really just need a throttle. No direspect intended.

Yes, there are fake mountain bikers, just like any other label. You're right, though, e-bikers are not any type of mountain biker and shouldn't even be considered fake.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

mountainbiker24 said:


> but you didn't provide anything to convince me otherwise.


Because nothing will, so I won't bother. But I can unsubscribe...


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Why do you assume I have never ridden an e-bike?
> 
> You don't think it's more challenging for an elderly or disabled person to handle 50% heavier bike on roots, rocks, and turns?
> 
> ...


You said an ebike is harder to maneuver. That's not true at all. That comment led me to believe you have never ridden one. I've ridden a Levo in rocks n roots, the extra weight was an advantage, the bike felt really planted due to the extra weight along with the Wide 3.0 tires. And why would you assume an elderly or handicapped would feel the need to ride rocks n roots? That is probably the last place they would go ride any bike for that matter.

i gotta tell ya, your view that people who might need a pedal assist... shouldn't be on a mountain bike at all is very disturbing. There are hundreds of people who have disabilities that don't need you to tell them that they shouldn't have access to a bike that allows them to ride. Here's a few disabilities for ya....

Multiple sclerosis
Muscular Dystrophy 
Chronic Arthritis 
Cerebral Palsy
Spina Bifida
Fibromyalgia 
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome 
osteoarthritis 
Cystic Fibrosis 
Asthma
Hip Dysplasia
Bad knees

And then there are guys like me who have been riding, racing, crashing and abusing our bodies to the point we just might need a little assist at some point because we've just worn out the parts.

There is no such thing as "fake mountain bikers." Do you realize how silly that sounds?
I raced professionally and ride with a crew at Whistler that absolutely shred. Now I don't know you, but I have a gut feeling if we took along... you most likely wouldn't be hitting the lines we do. Now I could say that you're not a real mountain biker, but that's ridiculous. There is no definition of real mountain biker. We all ride for our own reasons and everyone should repect each other for that


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fos'l said:


> SHM, wish we weren't on opposite coasts; I'd love to see the smile on her face when she rode my wife's bike. Plus, you and I could have a beer (or six) while she tested it.


I like the way you think homey.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Couple thoughts after reading a few posts above.

1) True cyclists don’t judge or care what someone legally rides (Road, Mtn, Ebike) IMO. Stating otherwise is a sign of insecurity and elitism. All 2 wheels.

2) My Levo takes more upper body strength while riding in technical terrain requiring manuals, scrubs etc.

3) This “Poll” needs to be more dialed. Throttle, no throttle, different classes?

4) I’m going to join FOS’L and SHM for a few cold ones!

Cycling with buddies for me is about the “entire” experience.
-Morning coffee and bacon eggs
-Big restroom visit
-Bench racing to trailhead or riding destination
-Begining ride taking in some sights and just enjoying the moment.
-Mid ride shred.
-End ride cooked, hungry and thirsty.
-Pub and grub
-Post ride rehash on ride home (slight buzz and full belly)
-Un-load bike, rigamortis setting in.
-Bed

If I’m lucky I’ll do this as many times as my family and life allows me. I ride for fun, not cash. Emtb is just as fun (in a few different ways) to me, than my mtb, road bike whatever. Let’s all just drop the lame arguments and talk Ebikes and their issues.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

ALimon said:


> You said an ebike is harder to maneuver. That's not true at all. That comment led me to believe you have never ridden one. I've ridden a Levo in rocks n roots, the extra weight was an advantage, the bike felt really planted due to the extra weight along with the Wide 3.0 tires. And why would you assume an elderly or handicapped would feel the need to ride rocks n roots? That is probably the last place they would go ride any bike for that matter.
> 
> i gotta tell ya, your view that people who might need a pedal assist... shouldn't be on a mountain bike at all is very disturbing. There are hundreds of people who have disabilities that don't need you to tell them that they shouldn't have access to a bike that allows them to ride. Here's a few disabilities for ya....
> 
> ...


I don't have to respect anything or anybody just because they have their own reasons. This entire e-bike debate is about e-bikes on mountain bike trails. At least the hundreds of trails that I have ridden have had roots and rocks on them. If the people attracted to e-bikes aren't interested in riding those trails, then there is no issue here. As for those reasons for pedal-assist, well, I would say that if they can't pedal their weight without assistance, then they should not be riding a heavier bike on mountain bike trails. Just because it would make it easier or because they can doesn't mean they should. I'm sorry if that hurts peoples' feelings, and I realize that nobody cares about my opinion, but there are other options than mountain biking. I also don't care about the lines you take at Whistler. When your "parts" wear out, maybe it's time to try something else that won't risk access for the rest of us. You know what sounds silly? Somebody with bad knees, shaky muscular control, or general weakness on a 45 pound electric motorcycle on rooty and rocky singletrack trails miles from civilization.


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I don't have to respect anything or anybody just because they have their own reasons. This entire e-bike debate is about e-bikes on mountain bike trails. At least the hundreds of trails that I have ridden have had roots and rocks on them. If the people attracted to e-bikes aren't interested in riding those trails, then there is no issue here. As for those reasons for pedal-assist, well, I would say that if they can't pedal their weight without assistance, then they should not be riding a heavier bike on mountain bike trails. Just because it would make it easier or because they can doesn't mean they should. I'm sorry if that hurts peoples' feelings, and I realize that nobody cares about my opinion, but there are other options than mountain biking. I also don't care about the lines you take at Whistler. When your "parts" wear out, maybe it's time to try something else that won't risk access for the rest of us. You know what sounds silly? Somebody with bad knees, shaky muscular control, or general weakness on a 45 pound electric motorcycle on rooty and rocky singletrack trails miles from civilization.


I feel Ike I'm administering medicine to the dead. Lol.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I don't have to respect anything or anybody just because they have their own reasons. This entire e-bike debate is about e-bikes on mountain bike trails. At least the hundreds of trails that I have ridden have had roots and rocks on them. If the people attracted to e-bikes aren't interested in riding those trails, then there is no issue here. As for those reasons for pedal-assist, well, I would say that if they can't pedal their weight without assistance, then they should not be riding a heavier bike on mountain bike trails. Just because it would make it easier or because they can doesn't mean they should. I'm sorry if that hurts peoples' feelings, and I realize that nobody cares about my opinion, but there are other options than mountain biking. I also don't care about the lines you take at Whistler. When your "parts" wear out, maybe it's time to try something else that won't risk access for the rest of us. You know what sounds silly? Somebody with bad knees, shaky muscular control, or general weakness on a 45 pound electric motorcycle on rooty and rocky singletrack trails miles from civilization.


We're off topic here a bit and into the whole ADA thing, which is practically irrelevant numbers-wise, so lets not go pretending there's going to be a slew of people with legitimate physical disabilities who are wildly unaware of their own limitations and completely lacking in common sense who are going to just go riding off into the wilderness by the thousands and die.

My sister rides a regular bike now, probably a little over 30lbs, nothing fancy. She sticks to a few familiar and well-traveled parks/trail systems. She's not some gung-ho mountain biker, but she does get out a couple times a week for a handful of miles, and she does a lot better than I'd expect her too considering she took it up around 40 and has something like 40% lung capacity on a good day. Be great to see her be able enjoy the feeling of just riding the trails without having to stop, turn purple and cough like Chong every 1/2 mile. She does pretty well with mild tech (mild for New England) and is not at all interested in just 'riding off into the wilderness' on a bunch of gnarly trails. Just because someone has a disability, doesn't mean they're an idiot.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> We're off topic here a bit and into the whole ADA thing, which is practically irrelevant numbers-wise, so lets not go pretending there's going to be a slew of people with legitimate physical disabilities who are wildly unaware of their own limitations and completely lacking in common sense who are going to just go riding off into the wilderness by the thousands and die.
> 
> My sister rides a regular bike now, probably a little over 30lbs, nothing fancy. She sticks to a few familiar and well-traveled parks/trail systems. She's not some gung-ho mountain biker, but she does get out a couple times a week for a handful of miles, and she does a lot better than I'd expect her too considering she took it up around 40 and has something like 40% lung capacity on a good day. Be great to see her be able enjoy the feeling of just riding the trails without having to stop, turn purple and cough like Chong every 1/2 mile. She does pretty well with mild tech (mild for New England) and is not at all interested in just 'riding off into the wilderness' on a bunch of gnarly trails. Just because someone has a disability, doesn't mean they're an idiot.


It does sound like she is an excellent candidate for an e-bike on certain trails. My argument is against e-bikes on all mountain bike trails. I admittedly got a bit side-tracked, since I generally agree that certain handicaps should be allowed an e-bike on many trails. I still think that there are trails where e-bikes should never be allowed, and I think some people do need to be protected from themselves. While I would never associate being handicapped with being an idiot, there are plenty of idiots out there.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

ALimon said:


> I feel Ike I'm administering medicine to the dead. Lol.


Same here, lol.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mountainbiker24 said:


> It does sound like she is an excellent candidate for an e-bike on certain trails. My argument is against e-bikes on all mountain bike trails. I admittedly got a bit side-tracked, since I generally agree that certain handicaps should be allowed an e-bike on many trails. I still think that there are trails where e-bikes should never be allowed, and I think some people do need to be protected from themselves. While I would never associate being handicapped with being an idiot, there are plenty of idiots out there.


I agree with all of he above, besides people being protected from themselves. 
Darwin handles that just fine.


----------



## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

In my circle, I find the greatest proponents of Ebikes happen to be people who sell Ebikes. Weird.


----------



## JonMX5 (Dec 22, 2011)

What's the difference between a regular guy riding a pedal assist bike and a pro riding a normal bike? The e-bike discussion usually revolves around their power output and their affect on trails yet your average guy riding them is more or less equivalent to a pro riding a normal bike. Are we going to limited what trails professional riders can ride too? Because the ground doesn't know the difference between them.

Or we going to keep up this ridiculous notion that they're the same as gasoline powered motorcycles? Try taking an e-bike to a motocross park and see how well that comparison plays out.

Here's an article on cross country riders' power output

https://www.bikehub.co.za/features/...ing-what-does-it-take-to-succeed-in-xco-r6177

"From the gun you can see that *the athlete kicked out ~1300 watts and had to maintain 1000 watts for 18 seconds*. This was followed by several spikes well over his threshold (demonstrated by the yellow dotted line). By the top of the first peak in the course the athlete had averaged 500 watts for 2:30 minutes. The second climb on the course is also very undulating, which results in several efforts far exceeding his threshold power. 10 Minutes into the race his average power was 354 Watts (this include all the downhills too) and his normalised power was 408 watts. The complete opening lap of the course resulted in a normalised power of 385 watts, which far exceeding his set threshold of 360 watts. In this particular race, this athlete completed the full 90 minutes at a normalised power of 350 watts"

And a review Spec Levo

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gea...alized-turbo-levo-fsr-6fattie-e-mountain-bike

"The average enthusiast cyclist puts out an average of 200 watts. The motor in Turbo mode adds another 250, for a combined 450 watts of total threshold power output. When you combine rider and bike weight (150 pounds and 45 pounds, respectively, for a 195-pound total), that gives you a power-to-weight ratio of 5.08 watts per kilogram. *Maximum system power output or peak power by rider and motor combined is estimated at 1,530 watts for one second.* Now let's put that into perspective. A professional mountain-bike racer (150 pounds) on a normal bike (28 pounds) puts out an average of 400 watts. Factoring in bike weight, the power-to-weight ratio is 4.95 watts per kilogram with a maximum of 1,400 watts-that's really, really close to what Average Joe or Jane can do on a Levo."


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

JonMX5 said:


> What's the difference between a regular guy riding a pedal assist bike and a pro riding a normal bike? The e-bike discussion usually revolves around their power output and their affect on trails yet your average guy riding them is more or less equivalent to a pro riding a normal bike. Are we going to limited what trails professional riders can ride too? Because the ground doesn't know the difference between them.
> 
> Or we going to keep up this ridiculous notion that they're the same as gasoline powered motorcycles? Try taking an e-bike to a motocross park and see how well that comparison plays out.
> 
> ...


FYI, the Brose motor is turbo mode adds 300% of what the rider is putting into the system, up to a max 530w, typical of the 250w motors, a 750w motor, which is legal in the US, can add 1500w. That article isn't accurate.

I can tell you that land managers aren't all that thrilled to have the average Joe & Jane putting out doped TDF rider numbers on the crowded trails around here.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

JonMX5 said:


> What's the difference between a regular guy riding a pedal assist bike and a pro riding a normal bike?


The ratio of regular guys to pro's is approximately 10,000 to 1. That's one difference.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Another difference is that pro riders know how to handle their speed.


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Harryman said:


> FYI, the Brose motor is turbo mode adds 300% of what the rider is putting into the system, up to a max 530w, typical of the 250w motors, a 750w motor, which is legal in the US, can add 1500w. That article isn't accurate.
> 
> I can tell you that land managers aren't all that thrilled to have the average Joe & Jane putting out doped TDF rider numbers on the crowded trails around here.


If a teenager can legally drive a 400hp muscle car amongst all of us, I believe a land manager shouldnt have an issue with joe & Jane riding a 250w pedal assist bike.


----------



## unrealityshow (Oct 29, 2017)

E-mtbs should not be allowed on non motorized trails. A motor is a motor any way you put it.


----------



## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

ALimon said:


> If a teenager can legally drive a 400hp muscle car amongst all of us, I believe a land manager shouldnt have an issue with joe & Jane riding a 250w pedal assist bike.


If you are not the land manager, what you believe don't mean squat.


----------



## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

mileslong said:


> If you are not the land manager, what you believe don't mean squat.


A land manager's power is not absolute nor permanent. They can be replaced with enough political pressure.


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

Harryman said:


> FYI, the Brose motor is turbo mode adds 300% of what the rider is putting into the system, up to a max 530w, typical of the 250w motors, a 750w motor, which is legal in the US, can add 1500w. That article isn't accurate.
> 
> I can tell you that land managers aren't all that thrilled to have the average Joe & Jane putting out doped TDF rider numbers on the crowded trails around here.


Ya, there is a lot of deception with the power rating system for ebikes. They are more powerful than rated, and it is not hard to add more power.

The Myth of Ebike Wattage - EbikeSchool.com


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

EricTheDood said:


> A land manager's power is not absolute nor permanent. They can be replaced with enough political pressure.


Proof?

A land manager is usually an agency, not an idividual, policy is evaluated and set by many people, not just one.

In our state park system, each park superintendent is king of their own little kingdom and can operate within overall park system parameters as they see fit. Our most recent local one hates bikes and banned them from a new trail being constructed for no valid reason. We went way above his head with members of the Colorado General Assembly pressuring his superiors to over rule him without success, so IME, I doubt getting a land manager fired because you don't like their policy choices is common.



ALimon said:


> If a teenager can legally drive a 400hp muscle car amongst all of us, I believe a land manager shouldnt have an issue with joe & Jane riding a 250w pedal assist bike.


Good for you.

The reality is that if we had a mirror situation with the EU, the same 250w/15.5 mph regs, the same heavier handed stance on regulation with painful fines, there would be much more of a willingness among my local land managers to allow emtbs on their trails. But, there are not, so they evaluate their policy based on 750w/20mph, zero resources for enforcement on the trails, minimal to zero punitive regulations in place to enforce what is sold as an ebike and their daily proved experience that a certain percentage of the population will embrace their entitlement to do whatever they'd like on public lands.

They feel like their only shot at regulating emtb usage is signage and bans. I don't blame them, I blame the industry for being greedy.


----------



## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

mileslong said:


> If you are not the land manager, what you believe don't mean squat.


And since your not a land manager... your anti e bike stance doesn't mean squat either.

Not sure what point you're trying to make with that comment.


----------



## scratch&dent (Apr 29, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I don't have to respect anything or anybody just because they have their own reasons. This entire e-bike debate is about e-bikes on mountain bike trails. At least the hundreds of trails that I have ridden have had roots and rocks on them. If the people attracted to e-bikes aren't interested in riding those trails, then there is no issue here. As for those reasons for pedal-assist, well, I would say that if they can't pedal their weight without assistance, then they should not be riding a heavier bike on mountain bike trails. Just because it would make it easier or because they can doesn't mean they should. I'm sorry if that hurts peoples' feelings, and I realize that nobody cares about my opinion, but there are other options than mountain biking. I also don't care about the lines you take at Whistler. When your "parts" wear out, maybe it's time to try something else that won't risk access for the rest of us. You know what sounds silly? Somebody with bad knees, shaky muscular control, or general weakness on a 45 pound electric motorcycle on rooty and rocky singletrack trails miles from civilization.


You have no idea what you are talking about do you?

I just tested an eMTBike yesterday, Levo comp FSR Carbon, i've been riding on and off for 15 years and I am in my mid 30's now with a company to run and limited time..

These eMountain Bikes are not a motor bike, you have to put effort in, you have to pedal properly, you have to have good cadence and you have to have some single trail skills.

I'd go as far as to say they are NOT ideal for people who are starting out because you won't learn the fundamentals.

I've got a company to run, limited time and a lack of time to exercise, I've put on a few kg's over the last 6 years, I have bad knees and a bad back from other sports and going on massive rides with the Bros isn't the optimum way to treat my wife on the weekends when she wants to spend time with me, this bit of kit cut my 4hr ride down to 1hr 36, I kept a steady HR up and if I didn't pedal properly it was actually harder to ride up hill.

As for trail damage these bikes will do no more trail damage than an ordinary MTB, that is what they are designed for, and frankly riding a MTB in the wet will probably do more damage than these bikes.

If used properly as a fitness tool I'd say it would help your MTBiking on a non pedal assist bike, that is where i see the benefit.

I'm not sure what all the hate is coming from really other than blinkered ignorance.


----------



## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> The ratio of regular guys to pro's is approximately 10,000 to 1. That's one difference.


You must spread some reputation around before you give JB any more green chicklets.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

scratch&dent said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about do you?
> 
> I just tested an eMTBike yesterday, Levo comp FSR Carbon, i've been riding on and off for 15 years and I am in my mid 30's now with a company to run and limited time..
> 
> ...


Welcome to life.


----------



## roma258 (Apr 20, 2012)

I've been reading this discussion with interest, coming originally from a motorcycle background, so at the risk of getting flamed, here are my 2 cents:

The comparison between dirt bike and eMTB is ridiculous in my opinion. Just look at the basic figures involved to see if you can equate the two with a straight face. I'll use my current dirt bike (Beta 520 RS) as an example for a standard enduro (basically lightweight dirt focused dual-sport) bike.
Dirt Bike- Weight 275 pounds fueled up. Power- 48 hp to the rear wheel.
eMTB- Weight 50 lbs. Power- 250 watts (1/3 hp). 450 watts with additional power from rider (3/5 hp).
MTB- Weight 28 pounds. Power 200 watts (less than 1/3 hp)

These are all ballpark figures, but you get the gist. The difference between an eMTB and MTB is negligible. So what it seems to reall come down to in every discussion is that assisted mountain biking is "not pure" and you have to "earn" the pleasure of riding trails by suffering on the climbs or whatever. Which from the outside looking in strikes me as extremely elitist. Not everyone is going to be into the same stuff as you are, and I don't quite understand how their enjoyment diminishes yours. As long as there are clear rules in place to prevent abuses, eMTB can open up the sport to so many new people, attracting new advocates, new trail builders, new business to bike shops, etc. etc.

Now having said that, there's also opportunity for abuse here. While I think the new emerging ebikes like Luna Sur Ron (6000 w, 110 lbs) are pretty badass, it's pretty clear they're a separate category of their own. Neither fish nor fowl. Where they fit in will have to be decided down the road (my guess is you'll start seeing a lot more MX tracks/mini trail systems closer to population centers), but it doesn't make sense to have them out on multi-use trails, considering they're putting out almost 25 times the power of the fittest rider.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

roma258 said:


> I've been reading this discussion with interest, coming originally from a motorcycle background, so at the risk of getting flamed, here are my 2 cents:
> 
> The comparison between dirt bike and eMTB is ridiculous in my opinion. Just look at the basic figures involved to see if you can equate the two with a straight face. I'll use my current dirt bike (Beta 520 RS) as an example for a standard enduro (basically lightweight dirt focused dual-sport) bike.
> Dirt Bike- Weight 275 pounds fueled up. Power- 48 hp to the rear wheel.
> ...


You didn't actually read this discussion, did you?


----------



## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

roma258 said:


> I've been reading this discussion with interest, coming originally from a motorcycle background, so at the risk of getting flamed, here are my 2 cents:
> 
> The comparison between dirt bike and eMTB is ridiculous in my opinion. Just look at the basic figures involved to see if you can equate the two with a straight face. I'll use my current dirt bike (Beta 520 RS) as an example for a standard enduro (basically lightweight dirt focused dual-sport) bike.
> Dirt Bike- Weight 275 pounds fueled up. Power- 48 hp to the rear wheel.
> ...


Well if you promise to go no faster than 18 mph on your Beta and not get out of first gear, maybe we can let you ride your motorized 2 wheeler on the trails too. I don't know anything about your Luna Sur Ron but I'd bet everything I own that once motorized bicycles are given the access they want, we'll see all sorts of crazy "bicycles" on the trails. I already know that people are too dumb or unwilling to follow the law since EVERY motorized bicycle rider I've seen on the trails has been on trails where they aren't legally allowed.


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

My Grandpa wanted a bike because he thought it would be fun to get around on. Rather than a ebike I bought him a 4wheel scooter. And he is one of those guys you swear at while your driving your car.
Face it our bicycles and ebikes are unreliable methods of transportation. Just look in your pack and see what you have to repair your bike with while out on the trail. Tube, Chain link, pump, Leatherman, etc. And not to mention that any biker who has ridden for a while has had to walk out at one time or another.
Do you think a disabled person should be out on singletrack? I really sympathise but we really don't need people away from civilisation and relying on assist to get home. 
I am not talking about bike paths, Iam talking about mountain bike trails.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

rlee said:


> My Grandpa wanted a bike because he thought it would be fun to get around on. Rather than a ebike I bought him a 4wheel scooter. And he is one of those guys you swear at while your driving your car.
> Face it our bicycles and ebikes are unreliable methods of transportation. Just look in your pack and see what you have to repair your bike with while out on the trail. Tube, Chain link, pump, Leatherman, etc. And not to mention that any biker who has ridden for a while has had to walk out at one time or another.
> Do you think a disabled person should be out on singletrack? I really sympathise but we really don't need people away from civilisation and relying on assist to get home.
> I am not talking about bike paths, Iam talking about mountain bike trails.


I'm not sure how many rescues that I've witnessed or been involved in over the years, but all the individuals started out not-"disabled". IMO, physically challenged individuals have a right to enjoy the outdoors too, and with electric assistance if necessary.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

fos'l said:


> I'm not sure how many rescues that I've witnessed or been involved in over the years, but all the individuals started out not-"disabled". IMO, physically challenged individuals have a right to enjoy the outdoors too, and with electric assistance if necessary.


Most of them were probably not a mile or two from the trail head. If some of the people that have been mentioned in these posts just ran out of juice or got a flat, a full scale rescue would have to ensue. The guy that wants his 240lb brother out there with him. that can barely walk, but can ride a motor assist bike, nobody is helping him without a crew, even if his pedal falls off.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Most of them were probably not a mile or two from the trail head. If some of the people that have been mentioned in these posts just ran out of juice or got a flat, a full scale rescue would have to ensue. The guy that wants his 240lb brother out there with him. that can barely walk, but can ride a motor assist bike, nobody is helping him without a crew, even if his pedal falls off.


AIR, most were five+ miles from any trailhead; at lest five required a helicopter to extract them, and another group other means since a helicopter couldn't get to them. I don't think that physically challenged and mentally challenged equate, don't have a problem using resources to help a physically challenged individual and don't think it's inevitable that mechanical issues can't be overcome on the trail.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rlee said:


> Face it our bicycles and ebikes are unreliable methods of transportation.


I can't speak for ebikes but bicycles are the most reliable method of transportation I've ever owned except for my feet. I carry a few repair items just in case but pretty much never have to use any of them.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fos'l said:


> I don't think that physically challenged and mentally challenged equate


Agree.

Some of the people posting here really need to get out and meet more actual real live humans.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rlee said:


> I really sympathise but we really don't need people away from civilisation and relying on assist to get home.


Check into how many able-bodied hikers and bikers need rescuing every year. 
No one should be allowed into the woods by your logic. Including you.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

rlee said:


> My Grandpa wanted a bike because he thought it would be fun to get around on. Rather than a ebike I bought him a 4wheel scooter. And he is one of those guys you swear at while your driving your car.
> Face it our bicycles and ebikes are unreliable methods of transportation. Just look in your pack and see what you have to repair your bike with while out on the trail. Tube, Chain link, pump, Leatherman, etc. And not to mention that any biker who has ridden for a while has had to walk out at one time or another.
> Do you think a disabled person should be out on singletrack? I really sympathise but we really don't need people away from civilisation and relying on assist to get home.
> I am not talking about bike paths, Iam talking about mountain bike trails.


 Bicycle unreliable? Big load of bull. Really. I have had one flat in 4 years. Fixed it in less than 10 minutes. Bike packing in the boonies of New England, everywhere, no issues. Never had to walk out ever. Got some duct tape and some zip ties? A clue on self reliance? Long distance remote ride, had someone fall through a frozen stream crossing at 20 F. In 10 minutes we had a fire going, pine boughs for him to stand on, a space blanket on and a pile of warm clothes from our extras. Spare socks, toe warmers, some stuff squeezed out, good to go. The trails are for everyone, not just the able bodied. My friend uses an electric wheel chair, we kick ass on rides . Disabled? Read any of the ADA? So, lung issues, busted up knee, no trails for them? Those who served our country and are now disabled? Dude, WTF. Clue up some.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> I can't speak for ebikes but bicycles are the most reliable method of transportation I've ever owned except for my feet. I carry a few repair items just in case but pretty much never have to use any of them.


Agree after 35+ years of MTB and never having a problem that couldn't be repaired on the trail with my simple tools.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

No doubt, I’ve never walked out either. Spare derailleur hanger is vital, but you can always single speed out. In fact, I think I’ve only snapped one chain on my mtb and a few on my Levo.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I've walked out a number of times. Mainly from frame breaks, but also a few times from rear hub failures and pedals that have snapped or stripped out of cranks. 

Can't remember the number of times I've done trailside singlespeed conversions on either my bikes or my buddies'. Maybe 25 or 30. Also splinted broken handlebars with sticks a couple times.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> I've walked out a number of times. Mainly from frame breaks, but also a few times from rear hub failures and pedals that have snapped or stripped out of cranks.
> 
> Can't remember the number of times I've done trailside singlespeed conversions on either my bikes or my buddies'. Maybe 25 or 30. Also splinted broken handlebars with sticks a couple times.


SHM, you're a harder rider than I (am). Never broke a frame or handlebar, but did a lot of the SS mods you mentioned and "one-legged" it out with a broken pedal and crank arm. Now that you mentioned it, think I stripped a Mavic hub once and pretty much rolled home, but pushed a little.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Nah, I'm just really, really un-smooth. 

My least favorite SS fix happened 12 miles into a 50 miler. 
I learned that day that SS is NOT for me. Managed to finish, but man, it kicked the crap out of me.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Broken frames and handlebars?! Holy chit mon, what kinda riding are you doing?


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I also find reliability relative to cars/trucks. Depends on how much you pay and how hard you push them. 

Sure, a $20 wal-mart garage sale bike could be made to ride smooth pavement like a $2000 beater would. An entry level car might have a more predictable lifespan--it still has a spare in the back, just like you'd carry a spare with your entry level mtb. It might be able to withstand a few potholes, some road salt, a bit of dirt road (not too fast), maybe a few light taps but not a crash at cruising speed.

Once you talk about a mainstream or enthusiast mtb, you're comparing to Ford Raptors or WRX or whatever. Very comparable reliability. Can push them harder without worry. Try to drive the beater and entry level commuter like these on rough terrain and those things would be trashed.

Not about miles, but hours. The bigger scale stuff has less emphasis on friction and what not, and less emphasis on tighter tolerances, compared to the telescopic forks on mtbs. Emtb drivetrains shouldn't technically see more rotations than mtbs--you're just pushing a bigger gear. It's just the additional torque from the emtb motor that wears it faster. Emtb tires and brakes wear faster due to the higher inertia, both from the extra 15-20 lbs, and the higher speeds. I don't doubt that clydes would wear out a normal mtb much faster than my skinny ass would wear out an ebike's parts.

Those mobility scooters seem pretty awful. I remember helping some guy with his intermittent power issue. He had a short in the wire from the battery to the controls on his seat. He was just whacking it to get it to start up. Tried to secure the wire in a way that had less resistance to electron flow once I found where the short was. Think he was going like 5 mph up a slight incline. He gave no Fs crossing a street at a T intersection without stop signs for the primary road, and cars just stopped for him. Hard to imagine him on a bike. He had a bag hanging off his seat, so he has that for convenient utility at least.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Broken frames and handlebars?! Holy chit mon, what kinda riding are you doing?


The New England kind. 

I used to really tear through frames when I rode hard and a lot. 
These days, I'm down to snapping a chainstay a year or so. 
I have no idea why; I rarely leave the ground, and I'm not a big dude or anything. 
Probably like I said, just not all that smooth I guess.
I have developed an affinity for steel bikes though.


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

So I hit a nerve or two, great, it creates conversation doesn't it? 
The area's I ride in have fire road climbs with single track descents. At least weekly I encounter people that want to enter a trail that they are not suited for. I give advice on alternate trails and usually get thanked. I think this is something any mountain biker should do. You don't want someone on a townie and flip flops hitting a black do you? E-bike or not shouldn't you think about what your limitations are? A e-bike can let someone go further, maybe where they shouldn't be?
I don't discriminate against disabled people. After breaking a few ribs it took me along time to ride our single track, so I don't see how a ebike can make someone a mountain biker. I am not talking about bike path's.
In the past few years I have torn sidewalls several times, blown rear hubs, taco'd wheels and broke frames. Not to mention trailside repairs. A ebike has a motor and electronics added to the equation.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Some of the best times of my life were going farther than I maybe should have.


----------



## Twimby (Jun 27, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> Some of the best times of my life were going farther than I maybe should have.


Usually the best times, instead of some.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> The New England kind.
> 
> I used to really tear through frames when I rode hard and a lot.
> These days, I'm down to snapping a chainstay a year or so.
> ...


 Un smooth? Well that's one description. Hammer pinball might be another. My riding " style" was once described as a drunken elephant crashing though the woods. There is something to be said for the New England bike abuse theory. Rocks and such.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> My riding " style" was once described as a drunken elephant crashing though the woods.


We need to ride together more.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> We need to ride together more.


I'm more like the proverbial bull in a china closet and wish I could join you guys, but we'd need to ride at least 50' apart to keep from crashing into each other.


----------

