# Berm rollers in pump track: sizing and shape



## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

Hi all,

I'm wondering what the consensus/rules/laws are regarding the geometry of entry and exit rollers to a berm on a pump track. I've been reading lots of web stuff and have the Pump Track Nation book, but I'm still unclear. 

Lets say that I have a straight at a ratio of 1:10 @ 10ft spacing coming into a berm with an *arc-length* of 14 (this is a 90degree, 9ft radius berm) - should the berm roller size be increased to accommodate a 1:10 @ 14ft? In this case it would mean a 0.4ft higher berm on the entry/exit. Would that help with the smoothness and/or the ability to pump through the berm?

An alternative would be to lower the berm floor by 0.4ft, which would increase one side of each roller, so maybe that would be perfect symmetry for both spacings.

Related, what is the shape on the insides of the berm? Do they have the same wave shape on both sides? I ask because in many cases the pictures make them appear to be very sharp drops on the berm-side of the roller.

Thank you,

Don


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## cyanidecowboy (Oct 13, 2015)

Hey Don,

I don't have the answer, but I wanted to ask if you figured this out. I am building a backyard pump track and I am struggling with getting the berm rollers right. From what I see online there are a lot of different ways people do it. My first try had the rollers tilted up too much, which made them hard to navigate at low speed. I have been looking around and there are a few ways I have seen:








1 - Straight roller into berm, bottom of roller just as berm begins









2 - Sloped roller along berm exit, peak of roller at berm exit (this is what I tried but didn't like for low speed/kids)









3 - Straight roller that slopes upward into berm, peak of roller at start of berm

To me, option 3 looks the best, and the Velosolutions track that I rode in Boulder felt awesome. I'm going to rework my berm rollers to look more like #3.

Cheers


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## cyanidecowboy (Oct 13, 2015)

I think that the answer to your questions might be in this picture: 








If you look at how the berm rollers are designed in this track, they are deeper than the neighboring straits, which accounts for their increased distance. I think your idea of deepening your berm (or alternately raising the level of the straight next to the berm), then you can keep the balance of height to length how you want it. One thing I noticed on these Velosolutions tracks, is that the rollers are not always 10:1, and the spacings are not always uniform, which is a bit different than what Lee talks about in Pump Track Nation.


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## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

cyanidecowboy said:


> Hey Don,
> 
> I don't have the answer, but I wanted to ask if you figured this out. I am building a backyard pump track and I am struggling with getting the berm rollers right. From what I see online there are a lot of different ways people do it. My first try had the rollers tilted up too much, which made them hard to navigate at low speed. I have been looking around and there are a few ways I have seen:


I can't say that I figured it out, but after some fiddling, I did come up with a solution which I like (been meaning to update this post, thanks for nudging me...). 

First, in terms of the general shape, I tried the sloping roller high on the berm side, down, but it didn't really do much for me...I was always riding the same spot pretty close to the berm wall, so no need to taper down. Also it was easier to shape (for me making a sloping roller it was also easy to end up with a wedge shape, which points you in the wrong direction when leaving).

For the position, I put them centered at the start/end of the berms.

Regarding the size - this is where I experimented the most, and I came to the conclusion that BIGGER is better! I just kept dumping dirt to increase them until I liked it (also note that I was getting better at pumping (i.e. learning how to do it correctly) while building the track, so that also might have biased my results). 

My happy spot ended up being your #3 (although more clear in your second picture I think). Mine might be a bit sharper. 

That said, everything is still a work in progress. As I said, I'm learning to ride it while I build, so I keep going back and making it better. 

I am 1000% behind your choice of #3! 



cyanidecowboy said:


> I think that the answer to your questions might be in this picture:
> View attachment 1986064
> 
> If you look at how the berm rollers are designed in this track, they are deeper than the neighboring straits, which accounts for their increased distance. I think your idea of deepening your berm (or alternately raising the level of the straight next to the berm), then you can keep the balance of height to length how you want it. One thing I noticed on these Velosolutions tracks, is that the rollers are not always 10:1, and the spacings are not always uniform, which is a bit different than what Lee talks about in Pump Track Nation.


(A) I really want to ride this track! Wow.
(B) I see what you mean about the dept of the berms. I guess we'd have to do the math to see if it works. 
(C) regarding the magic of 1:10 - I agree with your observation. In looking around (internet searching) it seems like most tracks don't seem to really do this consistently. The fun tracks with the guys flying all over usually look to be pretty variable, and unless you are really diligent with the depth-to-arc-length stuff (as discussed above), every time you turn your ratio goes out the window.

Mine isn't 1:10 in most places, and it doesn't really seem to matter too much, it's still fun to ride. It might be if you are trying to get into a zen state, versus thrash about. I can see a nice even ratio being important in the first case, but maybe boring? I donno.

Thanks for the pics, those are really good shots. I hope my experience helps in some way.


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## cyanidecowboy (Oct 13, 2015)

Awesome, thanks for getting back to me, good to hear that I am pointed in the right direction, I really appreciate your feedback, since I am new to both pump track riding and building. Interesting that you prefer to have a lot of amplitude on the berm rollers, I was worried mine were too big, but maybe I will first try reshaping them to look like #3 before I pull material off. I'm curious to see your track. I've got a little more than half of my track in at this point, but I'm not done shaping or compacting it.

Here's a few shots of mine:








The exit roller in the lower left is the one I struggled with the most when I was test riding. I'll be curious to see how it runs after some reshaping.


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## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

cyanidecowboy said:


> Awesome, thanks for getting back to me, good to hear that I am pointed in the right direction, I really appreciate your feedback, since I am new to both pump track riding and building. Interesting that you prefer to have a lot of amplitude on the berm rollers, I was worried mine were too big, but maybe I will first try reshaping them to look like #3 before I pull material off. I'm curious to see your track. I've got a little more than half of my track in at this point, but I'm not done shaping or compacting it.
> 
> Here's a few shots of mine:
> View attachment 1986074
> ...


That looks really good! And it looks like you have nice dirt to work with, which can save a lot of frustration. I'm digging down and live in The Granite State...can get tiresome pulling the rocks out.

You've got me curious about my dimension, so I will do some measuring and post some pics. I was thinking on my comments above, and maybe "BIGGER" isn't quite right - it's more like "make them big, but not too big" - by this unhelpful statement I mean: "the biggest you can get, for the speed of the section". If you have a fast section coming into a berm you can go bigger, just up to the point where it's going to kill your speed. The problem with this, of course, is that skills are all over the place if you have kids/multiple riders, and as people ride they get better, but I like to learn towards making them hard now, so it won't be boring by the end of the month.

In my track my 170deg berm is at the bottom of a grade, so the slightly bigger works...but it can make it hard to get out of the berm too (although I always figure that a good rider can do it, so I'll keep after it until I'm good). I also have a stubby roller on the upside of a 90 which is coming out of a hole, with big roller on the downside. 

One thing that I found is that the pointy rollers are no-good, definitely go for the smooth/wider ones, and be mindful of where they point you, as they tend to send you perpendicular to the crest line. In your pic, the lower left looks like it might be pointing toward the orange bucket more than the next roller (but hard to tell).

I'll do a bit of a survey and post up what I have. Again, I'm certainly no expert but happy to share whatever helps. Hopefully I won't contradict myself too much...maybe that's why there is the 1:10 starting point, but just use it as a place to get going, then deviate as the situation dictates.

What size bike are you riding, that will make a difference too. I started w/ a 29er, but bought a 20"bmx and that has many more possibilities, esp. for a smaller area.

Also nice that you have that road-grader for your finish work, that'll be nice!


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## cyanidecowboy (Oct 13, 2015)

des1401 said:


> That looks really good! And it looks like you have nice dirt to work with, which can save a lot of frustration. I'm digging down and live in The Granite State...can get tiresome pulling the rocks out.
> 
> You've got me curious about my dimension, so I will do some measuring and post some pics. I was thinking on my comments above, and maybe "BIGGER" isn't quite right - it's more like "make them big, but not too big" - by this unhelpful statement I mean: "the biggest you can get, for the speed of the section". If you have a fast section coming into a berm you can go bigger, just up to the point where it's going to kill your speed. The problem with this, of course, is that skills are all over the place if you have kids/multiple riders, and as people ride they get better, but I like to learn towards making them hard now, so it won't be boring by the end of the month.
> 
> ...



Thanks! I had to import dirt, since my native soil is basically 100% clay with fist sized rocks sprinkled in. Good eye on that lower left roller, my test riding confirms that it throws you wide off the line, I was eventually able to correct for it, but it kills speed to have to do a steering correction out of the berm. After riding I realized that almost all my rollers were too pointy, except maybe the upper one by the blue ball. I'm currently on a 26" DJ bike, but I want to pick up a BMX also, since my track is pretty tight, with 9ft radii and 8-12ft roller spacings. You like the 20"? I was wondering what size to go for. Lol @ the grader, my 3 y/o son is a construction equipment enthusiast, I'm hoping he will use that to get the track nice and smooth


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## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

cyanidecowboy said:


> ... but it kills speed to have to do a steering correction out of the berm. After riding I realized that almost all my rollers were too pointy, except maybe the upper one by the blue ball. I'm currently on a 26" DJ bike, but I want to pick up a BMX also, since my track is pretty tight, with 9ft radii and 8-12ft roller spacings. You like the 20"? I was wondering what size to go for. Lol @ the grader, my 3 y/o son is a construction equipment enthusiast, I'm hoping he will use that to get the track nice and smooth


Re: steering correction, I've found that angling the rollers and creating mini-berms can help prevent having to "steer". As you pump you can lean into them and not loose the momentum. Keep playing around with things that don't work/upset the flow.

I built my track with a 29er full suspension...seemed okay at the time, since I didn't know what I was doing on any account (building or riding). After reading around here, I decided to grab a cheapo BMX at a bike swap to play around with. I ended up with a 20" frame, 20" wheel BMX to try out. The first few rides were terrifying, and I was thinking that I didn't spend my $50 very well....but after giving it a few more chances it clicked, and I love it on the PT. I can really see that it opens up possibilities. I also dusted off my daughters 24" HotRock mtn bike and that is pretty good too, but kind of long. The 24 is more forgiving for testing/work-in-progress surfaces and small rocks. I'd like to try a 22" BMX and a 26" DJ, but I need to get my track done before I go there. In your case you have the perfect situation - your son will definitely need a 20" BMX at some point, and likely a 22" after that, so you have a great excuse to get one now, before prices go up. 

Here is my WIP. It is a 142ft initial loop, and a 120ft extension in progress. I'm going to fill in the mid-sections with other stuff - bowls, crossovers, rock garden once the loops are complete. Back by the tractor (the new section), I'm aiming for a long, straight section so I can put some little jumps in there, then slam through the berm. I'm trying not to kill the big trees, so they are somewhat dictating my layout.









From here you can see the tops of the rollers are angled to help control the direction. The right roller is flat/slightly sloped away from us to force you to the second berm (keep you out of the pit!). The second is angled to help you through the shallow, rising berm on the left.



















This berm(above) was a 10-11ft outer radius, which is pretty good if you have the speed. The one I'm working on now is a bit tight at 8.5ft radius, but I think it will be great for the BMX, once is gets packed. This also shows the type of roller which I settled on, similar to the above (which is more like 7:1 or 6:1 with 24" rollers):









So it's a huge mess right now, but I'm making progress. It'll be nice once I get all the debris out.

Don


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## cyanidecowboy (Oct 13, 2015)

des1401 said:


> Re: steering correction, I've found that angling the rollers and creating mini-berms can help prevent having to "steer". As you pump you can lean into them and loose the momentum. Keep playing around with things that don't work/upset the flow.
> 
> I built my track with a 29er full suspension...seemed okay at the time, since I didn't know what I was doing on any account (building or riding). After reading around here, I decided to grab a cheapo BMX at a bike swap to play around with. I ended up with a 20" frame, 20" wheel BMX to try out. The first few rides were terrifying, and I was thinking that I didn't spend my $50 very well....but after giving it a few more chances it clicked, and I love it on the PT. I can really see that it opens up possibilities. I also dusted off my daughters 24" HotRock mtn bike and that is pretty good too, but kind of long. The 24 is more forgiving for testing/work-in-progress surfaces and small rocks. I'd like to try a 22" BMX and a 26" DJ, but I need to get my track done before I go there. In your case you have the perfect situation - your son will definitely need a 20" BMX at some point, and likely a 22" after that, so you have a great excuse to get one now, before prices go up.
> 
> ...


Wow, nice track, and a beautiful setting, I wish I had that much space, you could eventually have a whole bike park in there! I see what you mean about using the angle of the rollers to help direct the flow of the track, I haven't heard that elsewhere but it makes a lot of sense. I really like the look of those berm rollers, I'm going to try to rework mine to look more like that this weekend. We have been getting rain lately, which has been great for the plants/fire danger but it turned my track into a mud pit this week. I'll post an update after I reshape this weekend.

Cheers,
Chris


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## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

cyanidecowboy said:


> Wow, nice track, and a beautiful setting, I wish I had that much space, you could eventually have a whole bike park in there! I see what you mean about using the angle of the rollers to help direct the flow of the track, I haven't heard that elsewhere but it makes a lot of sense. I really like the look of those berm rollers, I'm going to try to rework mine to look more like that this weekend. We have been getting rain lately, which has been great for the plants/fire danger but it turned my track into a mud pit this week. I'll post an update after I reshape this weekend.


Thanks. Yes, this whole project started initially as bike trails in the woods. We have a bunch of berms on a little "flow" trail too now, but that is a lot of work spread out. The PT is concentrated fun. Someday I'll put some skills objects back there, but for now focusing on the center stage. 

I fixed up the second loop this weekend (and I'm feeling it this morning)..










and realized that one thing that seems to add a ton of interest is the ability to change direction. Previously my loop didn't allow reversals and was always turning the same direction. The extension allows both/options. It is still quite soft, so I'm trying to keep off it (mostly), but it really adds variety. Once I clean up the small rocks in the middle I will work on some crossover lines. The other thing is that little berms and bowls (like you see in "parks") are fun too and don't take up too much space, and I can see this getting more interesting as my skills improve. Having strictly rollers/berms is only part of the equation it seems.

Looking forward to seeing some progress from your track. The rain has been a killer here, but it's good for packing.


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## cyanidecowboy (Oct 13, 2015)

That second loop looks awesome, nice work getting that in. I was actually working on a similar feature in my track this weekend, but I don't have the back berm done yet. Having a berm with >180 turn that puts two straights in close proximity creates a lot of cool transfer options. I like the look of your transfer line, I will have to think about how to shape something similar in my track. I agree that being able to change direction is key to keeping the track interesting long term. This weekend was a big push to get the main part of the track done because it was the end of my mini tracked loader rental. Managed to get pretty much the whole track placed, shaped, and packed, and I am completely destroyed. Even typing feels like too much exertion for my forearms now. Here are a few shots:








This is my right dogleg berm, all the other berms turn left (at least when you are going CCW). I drastically reshaped the rollers on this, and it is riding really nice. Its probably taller than it needs to be, but I'll come back to that later.









These are the back straights, which come right after the dogleg, these were the big project this weekend. Next weekend I'll try to get the 180 that connects them built, and that will finally make the track a loop. This is the main transfer point on my track, it should be pretty easy to switch lines here.









Heading back down the second straight, dogleg on the left, the next roller is a wedge which kinks the line, I like it so far.

It was fun to finally get to ride most of the track, now I need some rest lol.


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## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

cyanidecowboy said:


> That second loop looks awesome, nice work getting that in. I was actually working on a similar feature in my track this weekend, but I don't have the back berm done yet. Having a berm with >180 turn that puts two straights in close proximity creates a lot of cool transfer options. I like the look of your transfer line, I will have to think about how to shape something similar in my track. I agree that being able to change direction is key to keeping the track interesting long term. This weekend was a big push to get the main part of the track done because it was the end of my mini tracked loader rental. Managed to get pretty much the whole track placed, shaped, and packed, and I am completely destroyed. Even typing feels like too much exertion for my forearms now.
> 
> Heading back down the second straight, dogleg on the left, the next roller is a wedge which kinks the line, I like it so far.
> 
> It was fun to finally get to ride most of the track, now I need some rest lol.


Looks very nice - your son is going to be an awesome biker, such a great backyard! You just need to install a pool to make the oasis complete. 

How much fill did you bring in? That looks like pretty nice stuff, but I know what you mean about being tired after a long weekend. My raking muscles aren't what they used to be either.

Are your rollers 1:10? I find it very hard to tell from pictures, they look low as they stand, but very smooth. I need to measure mine, I think they are significantly more than 1:10 mostly. My level of rigor isn't up to what your level (little red flags!?!), but I'll write off my behavior as experimentation. 

I'll be interested in seeing the view-from-the-roof once it is laid out. Also, what are the dimensions? Keep the pictures coming.

Don


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

cyanidecowboy said:


> I drastically reshaped the rollers on this, and it is riding really nice. Its probably taller than it needs to be, but I'll come back to that later.


It's almost impossible to go too tall/big during building. Everything is going to settle and shrink substantially over the first season or two, and then slowly but regularly after that. 
"Too much" is a solution, not a problem.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

cyanidecowboy said:


> View attachment 1986635


Tip I got from some BMX DJ builders when it comes to packing with a tamper that really worked well for me is to lay a tarp down first and tamp through it. I would fold a 5x8 in half and use that.
Helps a LOT as far as ending up with a smoother surface; keeps the tamper edges from 'breaking' the surface, and also keeps dirt from sticking to the tamper. 

These days, I've stopped using the tamper altogether and just pack everything with my feet. I find it less strenuous and get better results. 
As a bonus, you can do it with a beer in hand. 

Don't forget to pack the edges completely too. That'll help everything hold together over time a lot better.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I've been working on a berm entrance/exit as well lately. 
Trying to make it so it can be either pumped or doubled in/out of. 
This is one side; once I dial it really well, I'll mirror it on the other end.

This side is about half done; needs a good amount of dirt added to the face of the entrance, but I need some rain to get everything into the right condition to help get the dirt to stick up on the steeper surface.




























Gratuitous track pics.


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## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

slapheadmofo said:


> Tip I got from some BMX DJ builders when it comes to packing with a tamper that really worked well for me is to lay a tarp down first and tamp through it. I would fold a 5x8 in half and use that.
> Helps a LOT as far as ending up with a smoother surface; keeps the tamper edges from 'breaking' the surface, and also keeps dirt from sticking to the tamper.


I've heard of sections of rug being used in this way also, esp. in sticky soil. 



slapheadmofo said:


> Don't forget to pack the edges completely too. That'll help everything hold together over time a lot better.


Also helps keep the wobbly rider on the right side of the handlebars. 




slapheadmofo said:


> I've been working on a berm entrance/exit as well lately.
> Trying to make it so it can be either pumped or doubled in/out of.
> This is one side; once I dial it really well, I'll mirror it on the other end.
> 
> ...


That is really pretty, nice clean edges under that forest-floor, smooth. You're making me feel bad...I've gotta step up my game.

I really like these smoothed out transitions, seems like they provide an infinite range of possibilities.

Love it. What is the width/length of your pump-area?


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## cyanidecowboy (Oct 13, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Tip I got from some BMX DJ builders when it comes to packing with a tamper that really worked well for me is to lay a tarp down first and tamp through it. I would fold a 5x8 in half and use that.
> Helps a LOT as far as ending up with a smoother surface; keeps the tamper edges from 'breaking' the surface, and also keeps dirt from sticking to the tamper.
> 
> These days, I've stopped using the tamper altogether and just pack everything with my feet. I find it less strenuous and get better results.
> ...


That's a great tip, I have a bunch of heavy duty landscape cloth that I have been using to keep the track wet while I work it, I'll try tamping through it next time. Dealing with the tamper messing up the surface has been a pain. My process has been to foot tamp until my feet are sore, then hand tamp with an 8x8 or my McLeod until my back and arms give out. Once I am really happy with the shapes I might rent a jumping jack to give it a final compression. I enjoy the workout of hand tamping, and I feel like I can get smoother shapes than with my feet. I'll make sure to give the sides some good compression too, I'm going to plant some sedum around the edges of the track to help stabilize the soil also.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Thanks homey. I've had a few years to work on it. 
I try to build so everything can be ridden in almost any direction. It can get a little confusing out there sometimes but it's nice to have lots of options, particularly when you're mixing in 3 y/o kids on striders with rippers on everything from big FS to BMX bikes. Lots and lots of 'hidden' lines to find. Sometimes people come up with stuff I never even thought of, which is cool. 

I'll have to pace it off; figuring 60' x 150' or so. Ish.

Come a long way since bitd. 



















This pic is taken from standing right where that berm entrance I'm working on now is.


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## cyanidecowboy (Oct 13, 2015)

des1401 said:


> Looks very nice - your son is going to be an awesome biker, such a great backyard! You just need to install a pool to make the oasis complete.
> 
> How much fill did you bring in? That looks like pretty nice stuff, but I know what you mean about being tired after a long weekend. My raking muscles aren't what they used to be either.
> 
> ...


Haha, thanks, he loves biking and I really want to encourage him to build skill with it. You read my mind on the pool, It gets too cold here to be worth having an in-ground pool, but I'm planning on putting a little 4'x8' above ground pool in the middle of the track during the summer.

I had to tear out a big concrete pad to build the track, so I had about 40-50 tons of concrete hauled out, and then 65 tons (5 tandem loads) of fill dirt hauled in just to fix the grading and get the backyard more level for building the track.








Concrete out








Dirt in

Once that dirt was spread all around, I got in 15 tons of ammended topsoil to put around the edges and to help with resodding the small part of the yard that wasn't going to be pump track.

Then finally I got in 45 tons of BMX mix from a local vendor that specializes in athletic ground materials, mostly golf stuff. Its really nice blend of 60% clay and 40% sand that packs super tight and strong.

The rollers are mostly 1:8 to 1:10 in height, but honestly I smashed them down so much with the tamper that some might be shorter now. I'm still trying to get a feel for what is the right height for some of them, a few feel to big, some feel too small, and some feel too tight together, but I've only done a dozen laps on the section of track I have, so I'll leave it for now until I have a clear idea on how to improve it.

And yea, I'm being pretty ridiculously detailed in the planning and construction, all my neighbors and friends have teased me about it. I'm trying to fit a 200' loop into a pretty tight space, but also I'm an engineer by trade, so I'm prone to creating detailed plans 
Here is the plan:








And the roller shapes:









I can't help myself...


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## cyanidecowboy (Oct 13, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> I've been working on a berm entrance/exit as well lately.
> Trying to make it so it can be either pumped or doubled in/out of.
> This is one side; once I dial it really well, I'll mirror it on the other end.
> 
> ...


 This looks amazing! What an awesome spot. I really like the amplitude you have on some of the features, looks super fun. That really wide roller section could be fun for doing side by side pumping races also...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

cyanidecowboy said:


> This looks amazing! What an awesome spot. I really like the amplitude you have on some of the features, looks super fun. That really wide roller section could be fun for doing side by side pumping races also...


Thanks man. 
I got lucky with the spot - I found it building MTB trails 12-15 years ago and always thought it would be perfect for a track. Just really cool pre-existing terrain.
As fate would have it, the town bought a beach and it came with 100 acres that just so happened to include this area, and when they asked me if I could build something 'for the kids'...well...sure I can! 

If I had had to stack up dirt from flat, there's no way I'd have stuff anywhere near as big. 
As it is I've gone through well over 250 yards of dirt. I tested clay/sand mixes and others and found that I personally like screened garden loam to work with. Luckily I don't have to foot the bill LOL.

Next big berm/wall/quarter; probably get after it seriously in fall.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

cyanidecowboy said:


> The rollers are mostly 1:8 to 1:10 in height, but honestly I smashed them down so much with the tamper that some might be shorter now. I'm still trying to get a feel for what is the right height for some of them, a few feel to big, some feel too small, and some feel too tight together, but I've only done a dozen laps on the section of track I have, so I'll leave it for now until I have a clear idea on how to improve it.
> 
> And yea, I'm being pretty ridiculously detailed in the planning and construction, all my neighbors and friends have teased me about it. I'm trying to fit a 200' loop into a pretty tight space, but also I'm an engineer by trade, so I'm prone to creating detailed plans
> Here is the plan:
> ...


Ha. I'm a CAD jockey myself. I feel ya.

One thing to accept is that you'll likely build/rebuild everything at least once (and more likely 2 or 3 times) until you get it feeling like you want. 
A general plan is super useful in a tight spot like where you're building, but it will all come down to just riding, re-riding, then riding some more and adjusting along the way. 
The more tires you get on it, but better it'll ride too, particularly smooth BMX or DJ tires. 
Knobbies tend to beat things up and loosen the surface; if my track wasn't 'public', I would never let anyone ride MTB tires on it.


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## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

cyanidecowboy said:


> Haha, thanks, he loves biking and I really want to encourage him to build skill with it. You read my mind on the pool, It gets too cold here to be worth having an in-ground pool, but I'm planning on putting a little 4'x8' above ground pool in the middle of the track during the summer.
> 
> I had to tear out a big concrete pad to build the track, so I had about 40-50 tons of concrete hauled out, and then 65 tons (5 tandem loads) of fill dirt hauled in just to fix the grading and get the backyard more level for building the track.
> View attachment 1986751
> ...


Wow, that is really an impressive commitment. Great planning and design, I like that layout. Obvious transfer lines there will really add some variety. Also counter-turns. 

I think it is super-cool to have a PT _right_ outside your door. Mine is 300ft from the house, which is pretty good, but that's a different level. Awesome!

I'm feeling like we might have a quorum for a pump-trackers-anonymous meeting here.


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## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

slapheadmofo said:


> Thanks homey. I've had a few years to work on it.
> I try to build so everything can be ridden in almost any direction. It can get a little confusing out there sometimes but it's nice to have lots of options, particularly when you're mixing in 3 y/o kids on striders with rippers on everything from big FS to BMX bikes. Lots and lots of 'hidden' lines to find. Sometimes people come up with stuff I never even thought of, which is cool.
> 
> I'll have to pace it off; figuring 60' x 150' or so. Ish.
> ...


From humble beginnings...it looks like the site was dug out a while back, giving you those nice-obvious berms. You've done a great job with it.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

des1401 said:


> From humble beginnings...it looks like the site was dug out a while back, giving you those nice-obvious berms. You've done a great job with it.


Thank you.

There's a nearby site where a bunch of contaminated soil from chemical dumping back in the 70s had to be removed and shipped away. 
They used this spot to get backfill material for that area, then just sat abandoned for a good long while, collecting garbage mainly.
It's pretty well used now; had about 25 riders through on Sunday, most stayed for at least a couple hours. It's turned into a nice little social spot for local riders, specially with the MTB trails passing right by.


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## cyanidecowboy (Oct 13, 2015)

Wanted to post an update on my build and see how you guys were going. I have all the track in and packed, still need to pack the sides of the features, but I'm waiting on that because my wife has some landscaping ambitions and I don't want to have to just till it up again. The big project has been the final 180 to close in the loop. I live in a suburb without an HOA, but the scope of my project is pushing the limits on what I can do without permits, so I am trying to keep it on the DL. To that end, I needed to build a retaining wall that looks like a fence any wont cause and issues with the neighbors.








Here is the fence going up, solid planks up to 4ft on the inside, half planks on the outside to match the rest of the fence








Cement board on the inside of the fence to protect the wood from moisture








Board up and taped, smashed as much of the retaining wall on the left as I could with a sledge, but couldn't get the corner, so I'll need to rent an impact hammer.








Built dead-men out of PTL to stabilize the posts and prevent push over or blow out.








Dry stacked concrete scrap left over from the section of driveway I took out. Spaced about 2" away from the fence, with 3/4" rock in the gap to provide drainage








Ran out of concrete block and started filling with dirt mixed with rocks. We are pulling a bunch of rocks out of our landscaping and I'm dumping them in the core of this berm.
















I borrowed a buddies shovel in the beginning of the project and broke the head off. Buried in the berm with his blessings. RIP

The fence feels and looks super solid, and blends in well with the rest of the fencing, hopefully nobody complains, but so far all the neighbors have been stoked.

That's where I'm at now, next weekend will be stacking dirt, starting by collecting all the crappy dirt from around the yard, and finally using the nice BMX dirt pile that is tarped. Probably won't have it done next weekend, but I'm hoping.
Cheers & Happy Digging,
Chris


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## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

cyanidecowboy said:


> Wanted to post an update on my build and see how you guys were going. I have all the track in and packed, still need to pack the sides of the features, but I'm waiting on that because my wife has some landscaping ambitions and I don't want to have to just till it up again. The big project has been the final 180 to close in the loop. I live in a suburb without an HOA, but the scope of my project is pushing the limits on what I can do without permits, so I am trying to keep it on the DL. To that end, I needed to build a retaining wall that looks like a fence any wont cause and issues with the neighbors.
> ...
> 
> Built dead-men out of PTL to stabilize the posts and prevent push over or blow out.
> ...


Yeah, you _really_ need the support group. This is some serious stuff you are doing, I love it! It looks great, fantastic work. I feel a bit lame, I'm just digging in the dirt - no structural engineering for me. I've no doubt that it will be fantastic when you complete it. Very cool.

On my end, before I broke ground back in March, I was hoping to have this finished by Father's Day which has just passed. I now come to realize that the term "finished" does not apply to PT building. I've got my extension built and pretty dialed in most places, so it is really fun to ride:











The problem is that as I ride it, my skills keep getting better, so I have to go back dial it some more and start looking for more features to work in. Build, ride, dial. Build, ride, dial. I'm stuck in a loop (literally and figuratively).
It's really cool when you can consistently hit things at a faster and faster rate. That tight 180 at the end of these runs is super fun. I've got the proper pumping down and I can really fly into and out of it. Such great positive feedback as my skills improve.

I really like having the lines into/out of the berm close, there are lots of options for transfers and alternate lines. Also starting to put in things which I have yet to know how to properly ride, which means they will probably undergo revisions as we learn and get better (small double, maybe too short?):










Next stage is to rework the original part, using lessons learned and add some more killer berms. Then I'm going to start to incorporate the natural obstacles which I can't move (like the boulder jump/rollover in the foreground). 

My daughter currently holds the primary loop record, but I'm king of the tight 180 for the moment. 



cyanidecowboy said:


> Ran out of concrete block and started filling with dirt mixed with rocks. We are pulling a bunch of rocks out of our landscaping and I'm dumping them in the core of this berm.


I got a bunch of left over rocks if you need 'em. Feel free to stop by, we'll fill up your trunk.


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## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

cyanidecowboy said:


> Wanted to post an update on my build and see how you guys were going. I have all the track in and packed, still need to pack the sides of the features, but I'm waiting on that because my wife has some landscaping ambitions and I don't want to have to just till it up again. The big project has been the final 180 to close in the loop. I live in a suburb without an HOA, but the scope of my project is pushing the limits on what I can do without permits, so I am trying to keep it on the DL. ...


Would love to see another update on this....

Not a whole lot of motion on mine, been tuning and working on drainage. Not sure I'm really happy with it overall - I'm thinking about doing some recon missions to see how other tracks are put together. I have a lot of ideas, but I've also needed to focus on other stuff (imagine that!). Not to mention my knee is keeping me down at the moment, so I can't even fool around on it. 

Let's see some drone footage!


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## vtskibum (Jun 7, 2006)

Had a local trail builder tackle this for me in the spring. Has been great as my daughter is also super into it. Have started adding a few extra lines between and going to play with different roller spacing. The majority are 1:1 or 3:2, but for new ones might pack them tighter for easier doubling them. Have some decent crossovers so you can switch direction or ride a figure 8.






































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## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

vtskibum said:


> Had a local trail builder tackle this for me in the spring. Has been great as my daughter is also super into it. Have started adding a few extra lines between and going to play with different roller spacing. The majority are 1:1 or 3:2, but for new ones might pack them tighter for easier doubling them. Have some decent crossovers so you can switch direction or ride a figure 8.


That looks awesome. Very cool that your daughter is into it also.

I agree that cross-overs and the ability to change directions is key. The other thing which I find important is having turns in both directions, esp like your berm-left followed by berm-right. 

I've been working on some lines which have a much longer spacing, at the 10:1 ratio. Also some more BMXey lumps, although at the moment everything it is a huge mess while I reconfigure.

Thanks for sharing, looks excellent.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

I wrote up a long post about berm styles over here:
My own private jump park? Yes, please. - BMXmuseum.com Forums

One of the berms I'm most proud of that I did a while back was this up-swoosh to "water fall" design. Basically the exit roller is integrated into the berm itself:


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## vtskibum (Jun 7, 2006)

That looks incredible and would love to ride that kind. Have seen videos of Phil Kmetz old one he built and Lee McCormicks both have a ton of elevation change. Mine has a little bit which is great for ripping multiple laps as can cheat w gravity for 1/2 of each lap.

Also some testing for fall last night on mine


















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## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

cmc4130 said:


> I wrote up a long post about berm styles over here:
> My own private jump park? Yes, please. - BMXmuseum.com Forums
> 
> One of the berms I'm most proud of that I did a while back was this up-swoosh to "water fall" design. Basically the exit roller is integrated into the berm itself:


Been through that thread a few times...great info there although somewhat overwhelming. I really like that look of this swooshy one, I might try to modify my 110 deg berm to do something like this - looks cool, and might help me get out of the hole which the berm drops through. Similar are those ribbon type berms which look fun, but I suspect are a bit more work. 



vtskibum said:


> That looks incredible and would love to ride that kind. Have seen videos of Phil Kmetz old one he built and Lee McCormicks both have a ton of elevation change. Mine has a little bit which is great for ripping multiple laps as can cheat w gravity for 1/2 of each lap.
> 
> Also some testing for fall last night on mine


Looks nice. What is the radius of your berms? 

I've been working to eliminate the elevation changes...esp when coming out of a berm. Fun when gravity is on your side, but sometimes too much work to regain it once it is lost.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

I think where you have the option of a lot of space, some of the small pump track designs, like in the original Lee Likes Bikes Welcome to Pump Track Nation book are a little too small. If you want a track that's actually jumpable, you need some long straights to get some momentum going. Having too many turns--especially 180 berms--can make it hard to keep momentum. This one that I built is more like a big rectangle, with another inner rectangle inside it.


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## des1401 (Jan 10, 2022)

cmc4130 said:


> I think where you have the option of a lot of space, some of the small pump track designs, like in the original Lee Likes Bikes Welcome to Pump Track Nation book are a little too small. If you want a track that's actually jumpable, you need some long straights to get some momentum going. Having too many turns--especially 180 berms--can make it hard to keep momentum. This one that I built is more like a big rectangle, with another inner rectangle inside it.


That's what I want, with chickens too! 

But - is this really a "pump track", or is it "bmx trails"? Or is there a difference? 

I'd like to expand out to have similar trail, which loops back to my current space (which is becoming maybe more of a pump-park). Next phase. I need to finish up what I've got first.

Looks like an awesome site.


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## vtskibum (Jun 7, 2006)

des1401 said:


> Been through that thread a few times...great info there although somewhat overwhelming. I really like that look of this swooshy one, I might try to modify my 110 deg berm to do something like this - looks cool, and might help me get out of the hole which the berm drops through. Similar are those ribbon type berms which look fun, but I suspect are a bit more work.
> 
> 
> Looks nice. What is the radius of your berms?
> ...


~12' have a wide skill variety and age of people using.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

des1401 said:


> That's what I want, with chickens too!
> 
> But - is this really a "pump track", or is it "bmx trails"? Or is there a difference?
> 
> ...


I consider it to be a BMX and MTB-DJ style pump track, or pump/jump track if you want to blend terms. The BMX world always had the two things blended (look at BMX race tracks, or indoor BMX wood ramp parks, like Ray's, or look at concrete skateparks). It was the MTB world that sorta broke them into different concepts. Like the Jay Hoots designs of the 2000's would have jumps-only over there and rollers-only pump track over here. When Lee McCormack first published Welcome to Pump Track Nation, it was to show what you could do in the confines of a backyard for training purposes, focusing on pumping--so it was all rollers. In retrospect, I think Lee McCormack should have said, hey cities, if you're building a big facility in a park, it needs to have pump and jump, not just pump. People rapidly got bored with rollers-only pump tracks and were trying to figure out lines to get some air. Some of the $500K Velosolutions tracks have no jumps for beginners or intermediate riders to jump--only experts can find lines to get air. But, a few of the newer Velosolutions tracks, they are adding in side loops with actual tabletop jumps (what I was doing 14 years ago). Similarly, Clark Kent Contractors from the UK has always designed their pump tracks with a more mini-BMX-race track feel, like actual camel-back/rollable-doubles and roller-tables and such, rather than just uniform rollers only. C&K Contractors - Pump Track Design & Build Specialists C&K Contractors - Werrington Pump Track , Staffordshire


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## wbartram (4 mo ago)

Love the ideas - check out this pump track build in Arosa Switzerland @1800m Arosa Pump Track

Good Luck William


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