# Tandem Disc Brake Thread



## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Allright, we have some great "themed" threads already: the ECDM thread, the Fandango thread and the Supsension thread... What about Brakes? Here's the Disc Brake thread.

As far as I know, there are a limited number of disc brakes that are "tandem rated". That said, I know that there are a lot of people out there using other brakes with success.

I'm hoping to get feedback as to what is working well, what is not working well etc. Be sure to include your set up, Make, Model, type of rotor and type of pads and the model of bike that you are riding

I'll go first.

*Magura MT4 *with Storm rotors. They have been working very well, I like the modulation and stopping poer. OEM pads are expensive, I've had pretty good luck with after market pads. Installed on a ECDM 29

*Magura Louise *with Hope Sawtooth two piece rotors. Installed on a Fandango 29. I WAS generally happy with the braking power and modulation, sometimes I get some vibrations through the frame, not sure if that is the brake, the pad, the rotor, or something else? But recently they have needed to be bled frequently. Possibly looking to replace these brakes.

I'm not ready to run out and buy another set of MT4s (althought that might make the most sense in terms of working knowledge of one set of brakes on both bikes AND same pads)...

So what are you using and would you buy it again??


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

I'm surprised this Thread didn't take off. Any hoot. I went the simple and cheap route as the Tandem was always an "experiment" for my family. (One we have all liked).
BB7's 203mm Clean Sweep rotors and FR-5 Levers. These pair of BB7's are the ONLY pair that I have liked, I found BB7's to be problematic on my single bikes, constantly needing adjustment and tweaking, but this pair has been awesome, set and forget. Strong power, good modulation. If we ever start riding bigger MT's or hit higher speeds, then I might see the limitations of these brakes, but for now I'm happy with them.

-A


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Our first off-road tandem had Magura hydraulic rim brakes. Stock they were pretty bad. Upgraded to some Johnny T levers and salmon pads and they were very powerful except with damp or wet rims.

Our second off-road tandem was had XT V brakes when it arrived but was immediately converted to Avid BB7m series with 203 rotors. Always stopped well but never saw a lot of miles.

When I built the Fandango, it was Avid BB7m and Avid something Ti levers. No issues and pretty good pad wear.

The Co-Motion Roaster we own came with Avid road disc calipers and 203 discs front and rear. When we decided how we wanted the road tandem, it turned out having flat bars and a similar setup to our off-road machines. The road brakes were replaced with mountain brakes and Avid ti levers. These have been great for where we ride and even survived a lap of Lake Tahoe.

The ECDM, with 26" wheels came with Magura Louise tandem brakes. These brakes got mixed reviews but for us, once seriously bled were pretty nice brakes. I enjoyed the large front disc and smaller rear disc. These were removed only on account of difficulty finding a caliper adapter for a Fox 40 fork.

The ECDM Magura brakes were replaced with Avid BB7m calipers and Avid ti levers. This kept spares simple in regards to replacement pads and a spare caliper. On the ECDM they have proven capable of easily locking the rear wheel if needed.

If the Avid oem brakes suffer with one concern for us, it is wet weather riding. It is as if the brake lining material melts and the brakes loose adjustment quickly.

I have since started using EBC HH brake pads with better results.

I would like to someday try a 220mm front disc and go to a 185mm rear disc on the ECDM. I believe the bike would decelerate quicker and have better corner entry speed since the front could settle lower.

I have spoken with other riders and discussed brakes with them. If the Avids have a common complaint off-road it seems to be the effort needed at the lever. For whatever reason this is not a concern for me.

PK


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

Great thread idea. To me, brakes are one of those things I'm ok having "more than needed" - especially on a tandem. I/we don't have a road tandem, so I can't speak to the demands there and we only have ~500 miles of trails on our Fandango - almost exclusively all on hilly singletrack.

*Hope V4 Stealth* with Hope's 2-piece sawtooth rotors. These calipers are a 4-piston setup and connected to the levers via a stainless-steel brake line. They provide tremendous stopping ability and on the longest descents in the North GA mtns, they haven't exhibited any fade, or loss of progressiveness. The front/rear 203mm saw rotors match well and seemingly dissipate heat with no problems. To date, we have not had any issues that would require bleeding, or opening the system. The rotors do require occasional cleaning; I usually wipe them down with non-chlorinated brake cleaner from the auto parts store.

Overall, I'm very pleased with these brakes. That said, I have had great success with Shimano's latest brakes on my single bike. If these bit the dust tomorrow, I'd likely try a set of Shimano Saint's on the tandem.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

*Hope Mono6 Ti*

One important data point for this thread would be approximate team weight. Another might be riding area. Light flatlanders could get away with a much different setup than we could.

---------------------------

We have a 26" ECdM S&S. Team weight is ~360 with gear. We ride mainly SoCal, so we're either climbing or we're descending.

Brakes are *Hope Mono6 Ti*, Hope Mini levers, and 203mm rotors F/R, braided stainless lines. I had to change out the rear Hope two-piece rotor years ago, but didn't notice any difference in braking. I expect I'd notice a difference up front, but the front rotor is still thick enough to use.

I've run all sorts of pads. Hopes are great pads but spendy. Up front Hope sintered worked great; currently running EBC greens which also work well but dust a lot.

I couldn't run the Hope sintered pad in the rear due to vibration - which went away with organic compound Hope pads. Since then I've run a variety of pads out back, but have always had organics in the rear. I believe I currently have A2Z pads in the rear, and I'm not crazy about them. A2Z pads didn't work well or last long up front.

We've never faded the brakes. My hands will cramp up before we have brake issues. I do get pump-up now and then on particular long descents, but releasing the lever and braking again gets rid of it.

In particular on the Hopes, the maintenance is nearly non-existent. The brakes have needed nothing in 6 years, have always worked, etc. I bled them last year and bleeding is very easy with Hopes. Also, based on the color of the fluid, I didn't even need to bleed them at that point. Fluid was still clear - way better sealed than the fluid in my car after even one year.


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

I initially ran Hayes HFX9 brakes on our current tandem(2004 Ventana El Testigo) , they worked adequately for a couple of years, then I put the bike away until this summer. When we did the tune up and tried to bleed the brakes, the brakes were a no-go.
I was running short on time before we were taking it on vacation, so I installed the BB7's and I came away impressed. We are a light team( I'm 165lbs, 10 year son is 70 lbs) they worked very well, the only mod I recommend is installing a small compression spring around the brake cable at the point between the arm and the cable stop, this helps to override some of the friction from using such a long cable.

On my previous tandems, I have ran Magura's and Hope's, with the Hope's being my first choice of brakes.


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> so I installed the BB7's and I came away impressed. We are a light team( I'm 165lbs, 10 year son is 70 lbs) they worked very well, the only mod I recommend is installing a small compression spring around the brake cable at the point between the arm and the cable stop, this helps to override some of the friction from using such a long cable.


Do you have a picture of this setup? Thanks!


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

Picture above....the new method this site uses to upload pictures stink!


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> ...the only mod I recommend is installing a small compression spring around the brake cable at the point between the arm and the cable stop, this helps to override some of the friction from using such a long cable.
> 
> On my previous tandems, I have ran Magura's and Hope's, with the Hope's being my first choice of brakes.


Isn't there a torsion spring tension adjustment on there? Are you maxed out?



Okayfine said:


> One important data point for this thread would be approximate team weight. Another might be riding area. Light flatlanders could get away with a much different setup than we could.
> 
> ---------------------------
> 
> ...


So you have semi-metallic up front and organic rear?
I have heard that Hope organic pads are not up to the task of heavy braking, but have great feel. I tend to agree as they are in use on my single (Tech M4) and I have faded them when used like my motorcycle brakes. I only weigh 185#.

On the tandem the BB7 with 203mm Aztec rotor up front does most of the work. Still have V-brakes out back. The most strenuous it has seen is Bear Creek, GA (once) and Mohican SP, OH without problems. I have had to drag the V-brake to dry the rim in anticipation of rainy descents. It is not a fun way to ride, but we're not shopping for a new frame with rear disc yet.
We weigh in at about 340# with water and everything.

-F


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Fleas said:


> So you have semi-metallic up front and organic rear?
> I have heard that Hope organic pads are not up to the task of heavy braking


Everyone's definition of heavy braking differs, but we had no issues with Hope organics as a rear pad. They did get a workout. Only switched to aftermarket pads due to price.


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

Jeff, thanks. Interesting idea. Next cable swap I will try that.


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## arly (Apr 20, 2005)

We got a road bike with a rear mounted BB avid with 203 rotor some 12+ years ago and really liked it. Back then we were told by various tandem enthusiasts it would overheat and fail. Obviously it didn't, so when we started to ride MB tandems we order it with the same, front and back. Sure we've got them warm over the years, discolored the rotors, melted off caliper decals etc, etc, plus we've warped a rotor once. The only time I was ever really concerned of failure was during a along decent on the Maah Daah Hey some years ago. We were moving right along in the 15 to 20mph range which may have went on for a mile, I could feel the pads were being burned off because the levers were getting closer and closer to my grips. Of course we stopped before they touched and we had a nice snack break. After they cooled we check the pads which were worn but fine for the rest of this tour, so we readjusted the brakes and rolled on. Since then we might be riding our 4th tandem equipped with BB's. These brakes are simple, inexpensive, easy to adjust even on the trail and have great modulation.

For the technical minded: We are a 300lb team and I only actuate brakes with my middle fingers. Yes indeed we do have hills here. www.copperharbortrails.org

Hope that helps.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

We just bought a Fandango from Alex at MTBTandems, team weight is 340# nakid.

I have been riding TRP Spyre calipers on my unis for a few months without any problems, so I figured we'd give them a try in place of BB7's. 

I talked Alex into installing TRP Spyre calipers front and rear with Tektro 203mm rotors; he is concerned they are not tandem durable, so it's kind of an experiment.

We haven't ridden much yet, but we did get out on some steep gravel roads over the weekend where we had the chance to heat them up pretty good and they seemed to work fine.

I was told that only a road lever/BMX would properly actuate the Spyre (it's designed for cyclocross), but they are working quite well with Avid Speed Dials.

I'll post more feedback as we increase the mileage.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

The TRP is a pretty discussed topic over on Bikeforums.net with the road tandem crowd.

TRP Spyre mechanical brake = bee's knees?

PK


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

We've been using Formula RO brakes on our ECDM 29er for over a year. Our team weight is around 240lbs without riding gear. We started out with 160mm rotors. The bike stopped OK with the small rotors but didn't have the nice powerful one-finger braking I am used to. We went to 203mm rotors which allowed one-finger braking on the steepest terrain we are comfortable with, which is pretty steep! The Formula 203mm rotors and calipers are very hard to set drag free due to the close pad to disc properties of the ROs and all Formula brakes. Any disc runout will cause rubbing and annoying whining noise, even with organic pads. I played with the 203mm rotors for many hours and couldn't get them to stop rubbing completely. I switched the rear to a 180mm rotor and have found it easier to set up the rear caliper, but drag free is still not possible. The power with the 180mm rotor is good enough but more pull on the lever is needed than the 203mm rotors. I could try to bleed them with the pistons pressed even further in than with the stock plastic bleed pad/shims to see if the return would give more clearance? 

Another issue we've encountered is that with the correct sized Chris King Universal Disc Hub adapter for the 145mm axle hub the Formula caliper could not be adjusted towards the inside far enough. I used some disc rotor shims to move the rotor outboard to get the brake caliper centered. After some rides I noticed that the 203mm disc was now very close to the chain stay and was in fact rubbing a bit. The solution for me is to shim the caliper inboard using the shims that used to come with Shimano brakes. However, I will likely change out the Formula brakes to Shimano XTRs if I can't come up with a fix for the constant brake rub issue very soon.


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## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

*Hope Tech Evo V4*

We have a Hope Tech Evo V4 brake setup on our Ventana ECdM 26er and are using standard pads (I think). We are about a 120 kg (270lbs) team.

We went with the vented 203mm rotor on the front and a standard 203mm rotor on the back (we have a rohloff hub so couldn't fit the vented rotor on the back). We have done a couple of Alpine descents so far and the brakes have held up pretty well (last ride we descended 1000m over 7km of singletrail [3280 feet over 4.35miles]). The vented disc is pretty noisy when it is cooling after a descent - noise captured in this video

If we could have I would have had the vented rotor on the front and rear though.


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

swiss_toni said:


> The vented disc is pretty noisy when it is cooling after a descent - noise captured in this video
> 
> If we could have I would have had the vented rotor on the front and rear though.


You sure it's the vented disc not the "Floating" disc part making that noise? I have V4's and Mono's with Floating rotors on two single bikes and after a heavy brake dH run, will make the same noise.

-A


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Concur, that's "normal" for the two-piece stuff, since the materials expand/contract at different rates. I get that noise (if not as rapid) after any decent decent from the front Hope two-piece floating rotor.


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

ebnelson said:


> We've been using Formula RO brakes on our ECDM 29er for over a year. The Formula 203mm rotors and calipers are very hard to set drag free due to the close pad to disc properties of the ROs and all Formula brakes.


We had the same problem with them on our Lapierre tandem. I could set them "drag free" but as soon as you rode the bike the brakes would rub at both the front and rear. Tried loads of things to eliminate frame flex etc as the cause, including bleeding some fluid off in case they were overfilled. These were the first disc brakes to beat me in many years so I purchased some Shimano SLX's. I just swapped the rotors to start with and this eliminated all the rubbing so you might get away with just doing that. The new rotors were 2 part (XT I think). I personally think that the Formula 203 rotors are of a too light construction causing them to flex when in use. The Formula brakes went on ebay and ended-up in Latvia.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I just ordered some Hope V2 Floating 203 rotors to replace the Tektro Storm SL rotors that came with our TRP Spyre brakes. The Storm SL have very aggressive cut outs, which make the braking "ragged" and rough, though they stop fine.


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## swiss_toni (Apr 6, 2013)

Ciclistagonzo said:


> You sure it's the vented disc not the "Floating" disc part making that noise? I have V4's and Mono's with Floating rotors on two single bikes and after a heavy brake dH run, will make the same noise.





Okayfine; said:


> Concur, that's "normal" for the two-piece stuff, since the materials expand/contract at different rates. I get that noise (if not as rapid) after any decent decent from the front Hope two-piece floating rotor.​


I stand corrected :thumbsup: I thought I had floating rotors front and rear with only the front one being vented. As the rear wasn't 'ticking' I presumed it was the vented rotor causing it. On closer inspection the rear rotor we have is not a floating rotor.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I got the Hope V2 203mm floating rotors installed, so far so good, they seem to stay cooler, and they are far less chattery, stopping power is better than with the Tektro Storm rotors.

We were still getting some rear fade and they were still more chattery than I like, so I swapped to resin (organic) pads and we've been riding those for a few weeks. The resin pads are much quieter, no chatter, no vibration, they stop better than the semi-metalics, so two thumbs up.

Granted we have only been using the TRP Spyres for a couple months, so it'll take some more time to see how they hold up. That said, I have been riding Spyres on munis for ~ six months and they have taken too many hits and drops to count, and they continue to provide great performance. I'm thinking about changing to resin pads on the munis as well 

So, if you are considering a mechanical disc brake (BB7), take a look at the Spyre, BUT get your own rotors, Tektro Storms are garbage!


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> We just bought a Fandango from Alex at MTBTandems, team weight is 340# nakid.
> 
> I have been riding TRP Spyre calipers on my unis for a few months without any problems, so I figured we'd give them a try in place of BB7's.
> 
> ...


Are you running full length cable housing?


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

We have a set of TRP Quadiems (4 piston hydraulics) here for testing. MHopton has agreed to be the guinea pig; he'll have a good perspective based on his use of the Hopes, which I consider the benchmark. Wish the Hopes were cheaper.
I wouldn't be surprised to see something beefier from Magura in the near future, maybe 4 piston again like the old Gustavs. 
We'll put a set of the TRP mechanicals on another demo tandem so we can ride them back-to-back against the Avids and get a better perspective on how they compare. Since the time changes this weekend, our riding time will be cut to one day per week, weather permitting.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Our TRP Spyres are working great, no fade to speak of, great for feathering while use to control tight terrain. The brakes are much quieter since we changed to the resin pads, no obvious difference in power between semi metallic (OEM) and resin pads, still not enough use to get a sense for durability.

There was a reported failure on the Spyre SL which sports a carbon arm; not a weave layup, more likely a molded piece. Apparently the arm "spun" on the attachment hardware. In my mind I never saw that arm as being all that durable, so now it seems like the few grams of weight savings are not really worth it 

On an aside, I rode the new black BB7 yesterday, nice looking brake, not sure if the design is changed, but they sure look nice


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

I thought I'd post up a couple of pics of the TRP Quadiems that TandemNut referenced above. My benchmark to test against is the Hope V4 (4-piston) with braided steel lines. Initial impressions of the TRP are that they are a solid brake and likely fall in the feel of an offering from Magura or Shimano. The pieces appear to be cast vs. machined aluminum (Hopes) and use a plastic hydraulic line. My two cents thus far consists of a parking lot test where the modulation felt fine despite a very short lever - perhaps more noticeable when used with gripshift. I also need to figure out how to shorten the lever reach to fit my small hands. Pics below and a ride report forthcoming.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

mhopton said:


> I thought I'd post up a couple of pics of the TRP Quadiems that TandemNut referenced above. My benchmark to test against is the Hope V4 (4-piston) with braided steel lines. Initial impressions of the TRP are that they are a solid brake and likely fall in the feel of an offering from Magura or Shimano. The pieces appear to be cast vs. machined aluminum (Hopes) and use a plastic hydraulic line.  My two cents thus far consists of a parking lot test where the modulation felt fine despite a very short lever - perhaps more noticeable when used with gripshift. I also need to figure out how to shorten the lever reach to fit my small hands. Pics below and a ride report forthcoming.
> 
> View attachment 843733
> 
> ...


Interested to hear your review!


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

ebnelson said:


> We've been using Formula RO brakes on our ECDM 29er for over a year. Our team weight is around 240lbs without riding gear. We started out with 160mm rotors. The bike stopped OK with the small rotors but didn't have the nice powerful one-finger braking I am used to. We went to 203mm rotors which allowed one-finger braking on the steepest terrain we are comfortable with, which is pretty steep! The Formula 203mm rotors and calipers are very hard to set drag free due to the close pad to disc properties of the ROs and all Formula brakes. Any disc runout will cause rubbing and annoying whining noise, even with organic pads. I played with the 203mm rotors for many hours and couldn't get them to stop rubbing completely. I switched the rear to a 180mm rotor and have found it easier to set up the rear caliper, but drag free is still not possible. The power with the 180mm rotor is good enough but more pull on the lever is needed than the 203mm rotors. I could try to bleed them with the pistons pressed even further in than with the stock plastic bleed pad/shims to see if the return would give more clearance?
> 
> Another issue we've encountered is that with the correct sized Chris King Universal Disc Hub adapter for the 145mm axle hub the Formula caliper could not be adjusted towards the inside far enough. I used some disc rotor shims to move the rotor outboard to get the brake caliper centered. After some rides I noticed that the 203mm disc was now very close to the chain stay and was in fact rubbing a bit. The solution for me is to shim the caliper inboard using the shims that used to come with Shimano brakes. However, I will likely change out the Formula brakes to Shimano XTRs if I can't come up with a fix for the constant brake rub issue very soon.


I called Formula-USA today and found out they make replacement caliper pistons and seals that increase the return force of the pistons for increased rotor clearance. The parts were $26 per wheel. I'm excited to get my RO brakes set up drag free!


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Okay I play, we are a pretty heavy team at about 400 (mostly me) so I developed this redundant system, the rim brakes are XT, (actually XTR now) and the disc calipers are old Hope "M4" that actually works really well, no idea about the pads.









The brakes can be used as unison or each of them independently depending on riding conditions.









The C2 Hope levers can be "dial" for pad contact with this little knob, very useful when you want drag free performance and/or absolute power, again this brake set up stop us at command on the step hills of Utah.









Ps: I have 6-ti's on three single bikes and I don't see the need to install them on the tandem (call me wierd but I have more trust on my v-brakes for some reason)


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## DHMASTER (Oct 12, 2010)

Go big. 225


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

DHMASTER said:


> Go big. 225


At the rates of speed that you go and considering how heavy your bike is I'm surprise you don't used motorcycle brakes and rotors, brembo goldline comes to mind..


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

I've been using a Shimano Saint 200mm on the front of my ECDM for about a year now and love it. We don't have a ton of miles due to stoker health and work schedule, but so far so good. 

It replaced a hope M4 which squealed/howled no matter what. The saint is quiet and more powerful and modulated better than the old hope. (My M4 was a direct-mount ISO type. I've tried it on 3 different forks, and a few rotors, several different sets of pads/compounds, and shim, shim, shimmed it. Finally couldn't take the noise. Glad I switched to the saint.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

We just received some sets of Magura's new 4 piston brakes, the MT5Next, and the MT7Next will follow shortly. Looking forward to a bit more power from these. Will have some trail time shortly and will post initial impressions.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Just replaced my TRP Spyres with the TRP Spyke (MTB specific), will post a review after some riding.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

TandemNut said:


> We just received some sets of Magura's new 4 piston brakes, the MT5Next, and the MT7Next will follow shortly. Looking forward to a bit more power from these. Will have some trail time shortly and will post initial impressions.


Any update here?


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

mhopton said:


> I thought I'd post up a couple of pics of the TRP Quadiems that TandemNut referenced above. My benchmark to test against is the Hope V4 (4-piston) with braided steel lines. Initial impressions of the TRP are that they are a solid brake and likely fall in the feel of an offering from Magura or Shimano. The pieces appear to be cast vs. machined aluminum (Hopes) and use a plastic hydraulic line. My two cents thus far consists of a parking lot test where the modulation felt fine despite a very short lever - perhaps more noticeable when used with gripshift. I also need to figure out how to shorten the lever reach to fit my small hands. Pics below and a ride report forthcoming.
> 
> View attachment 843733
> 
> ...


*Any update here?*


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

Hey Dan, I rode these brakes for a couple of weeks and then pulled them off. What I recall is that they had plenty of power but not a lot of modulation. That said, the biggest issue I had was the long reach to the lever from the bar. The lever was supposed to be adjustable, but it either didn't work or didn't have enough adjustability to make a difference. 

I have ridden, around the block, the new maguras that Alex is talking about. I was very impressed with those and would not hesitate to run those. But, the Hopes are still running strong on our tandem, so no need to change. 

FWIW, we are a pretty light team at 285lbs, so we aren't stressing the brakes as much as a heavier team.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

I have been on the trials forums lately since I bought a street trials bike. Most of those guys are pretty much into brakes, how well they hold, and how they feel when applied and the ergos.

Many different opinions. The Hopes always get high marks. The other serious player is Shimano Saint 810 series which is no longer made. The 820 is used a bunch but noted not as good. The new SRAM Guide RSC series is now also being used with very good results and similar approval of the 810 Saints.

The brakes to avoid are avid hydraulics with taper bore technology. These are always seeing complaints about the lever dropping to the grip.

For cable brakes, the brake of choice is earlier series BB7 followed by later series BB7 with good cables and quality levers.

The competition trials guys run Magura rim brakes with the rim sides ground with a disc type autobody grinder. These are the riders you would see constantly hopping on the rear wheel from feature to feature. They pretty much lock the wheel solid most of the time.

I currently run the SRAM DB5's that came on my bike. Had to upgrade the pads to sintered metal. Better but would like more. Debating on installing the SRAM Guide RSC, but they are not inexpensive.

Not sure it helped DS, simply some recent stuff I have learned and followed.

Still plan to keep the Avid BB7's on both the ECDM and the Co-Motion.

PK


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

I've got a Saint 820 on the front of my ECDM. I like it way more than the Hope M4 it replaced. More power, modulates as well or better and NO SQUEALING!


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

Thinking about upgrading the BB7 to Magura MT4 or Hope, can you guys tell me out of the two which is the quickest to bleed?? 
This will be my first set of hydraulic brakes and looking to keep it as easy as possible.
Team weight is around 300-310


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

We have the uber powerful Hope M4 on our tandem. I've bled them once and it was just like bleeding your car's brake system. At the lever, take off the reservoir top, ensure its filled with dot 5.1 and bleed from the caliper by pumping from the lever.

They are great brakes but I would look hard at the new MT4.

Saints are great brakes too, but Shimano brakes are a real pain to bleed.


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

Thanks Mike...
How much did they change on the New MT4 vs the older model?
For some reason I really like the look of the older model lol....


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

You know, I'm not sure. I rode ALM's new tandem at the mtbtandems shop when they were picking it up and I just know they felt good. They are a 4-piston design. 

Alex to the bat-phone....?


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

mhopton said:


> You know, I'm not sure. I rode ALM's new tandem at the mtbtandems shop when they were picking it up and I just know they felt good. They are a 4-piston design.
> 
> Alex to the bat-phone....?


I'm thinking those are MT5 if they have 4 pistons


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

Allen/Alex any feedback on the MT5 vs the older model MT4??
I do know it will cost me more in the long run replacing pads on the MT5 cause of the four pistons.
My guess the MT5 are that much more powerful over the MT4...


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

XC Mike said:


> Allen/Alex any feedback on the MT5 vs the older model MT4??
> I do know it will cost me more in the long run replacing pads on the MT5 cause of the four pistons.
> My guess the MT5 are that much more powerful over the MT4...


I've had good luck with the MT4s. Quite a few miles (2-3k) and lots of climbing/descending , zero complaints.

On a separate note, we are using the TRP Spykes on our new fat tandem. So far so good, but I don't think we'll push the limits on these due to the type of riding & conditions that we'll likely encounter in the snow vs. dirt.


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

Thanks Dan
I talked to Alex the other day as of now it looks like we will be doing MT5 can't beat the price for four pistons


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

mhopton said:


> We have the uber powerful Hope M4 on our tandem. I've bled them once and it was just like bleeding your car's brake system. At the lever, take off the reservoir top, ensure its filled with dot 5.1 and bleed from the caliper by pumping from the lever.
> 
> They are great brakes but I would look hard at the new MT4.
> 
> Saints are great brakes too, but Shimano brakes are a real pain to bleed.


Shimano brakes are hard to bleed? That's a first. One of the selling points besides reliability is ease of bleeding and of course, the mineral oil they use that is less toxic and easier on paint that also has a higher boiling point than DOT 5.1 min spec. Seriously, way easier than any other brand I've used.


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

BuickGN said:


> Shimano brakes are hard to bleed? That's a first. One of the selling points besides reliability is ease of bleeding and of course, the mineral oil they use that is less toxic and easier on paint that also has a higher boiling point than DOT 5.1 min spec. Seriously, way easier than any other brand I've used.


I don't want to get into an internet pissing match, but there is no way you can convince me that bleeding shimano's current generation of brakes is easier than....for example, Hopes. I will submit that their mineral oil is easier to deal with than DOT 5.1, but otherwise there is no comparison. I have both and have bled both and don't care to deal with bleeding the Shimano's again.

Just my .02 - YMMV.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

The MT5's are an easy bleed, also mineral oil. Magura was the first, I think, to use MO. The MT5 has good power, good modulation, and represents a good value for a 4 piston brake. I've been happy with the performance overall. Initial bite is much stronger than the MT4. The difference between the MT5 and MT7 is the amount of reach adjustment and contact point adjustment (MT7 has more, naturally). Both are an improvement on the MT4 as far as brute strength. The MT4 would still work for a lightweight team looking to save weight. I like the direction Magura's going lately. Brakes as a whole are much, much better than a few years ago!


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

Anybody spend any time on XT M785-B...
I hear a lot of good things, just not sure how well they would work on the tandem???


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

PMK said:


> I currently run the SRAM DB5's that came on my bike. Had to upgrade the pads to sintered metal. Better but would like more. Debating on installing the SRAM Guide RSC, but they are not inexpensive.
> 
> Not sure it helped DS, simply some recent stuff I have learned and followed.


Hi Paul what do you think about the Guide RS model?
I was at the local shop the other day and was looking at the R model on a single bike looked and felt good....Thinking about going with the RS line after reading all the reviews...


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

Hey Mike, I use the XT 785 brakes on my Remedy single bike. They are solid brakes for sure but sometimes I believe that they can be overwhelmed due to heat accumulation. The lever feel changes the hotter the brakes get and they lose what little progressive feel they had to start with. 

I'm not sure I'd run them on a tandem with the added weight. I think they would get overwhelmed pretty quick. For that reason, I'd look more at the Saints if you were set on Shimano's.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

XC Mike said:


> Hi Paul what do you think about the Guide RS model?
> I was at the local shop the other day and was looking at the R model on a single bike looked and felt good....Thinking about going with the RS line after reading all the reviews...


No answer yet on the guide RS yet. Order was placed late and they should have been here yesterday but did not show up. Maybe the shop will call today.

These will be installed on my Inspired trials bike, not a tandem. For that bike it will not generate a lot of heat but needs good feel and strong hold power.

Overall the Guide series is being compared in performance to the Saint 820 series, but I do not know how well they will handle the heat a tandem could build up.

If I were buying tandem brakes today, I would likely go with something known to be good and proven. BB7's, Hopes, maybe Maguras or I would look for some NOS Saint 810's or maybe Saint 820's.

Honestly, and I will take a beating for saying it. For us, the BB7's have worked well. Some have mentioned more effort at the lever, I don't disagree, but overall, with sintered Avid oem pads, we have ridden some silly stuff with no issues.

FWIW, Guides are not inexpensive, guessing around $300 for both wheels and does not include the new style discs.

Maybe someday Brembo will step in and make mini moto brakes for bicycles...

PK


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

Thanks Guys......
At under $120 wheel I think I'm gonna try the RS and see how they do.
I will try and reuse my rotors to save some $$ if not I will order the new rotors


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

Lol.....did I tell you Guys how confused I was when it comes to brakes....
Now I'm thinking stick with the MT5s and call it a day???
I'm now seeing shops putting the MT4s on sale for $85 per wheel....
Then I read all about the stripped bleeder bolts and other hardware failures


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Magura. MT series brakes are garbage, I trashed the levers in weeks on munis, the.calipers are better than the levers, but as a package they are not tandem worthy.

The guides are great brakes, iI have RSC on my FS 29er 

BB7 work, I prefer the Spykes

Edit: See post below, Spykes not powerful enough for aggressive use.


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> I've had good luck with the MT4s. Quite a few miles (2-3k) and lots of climbing/descending , zero complaints.


Yo Dan Team Weight on these MT4s??


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> Magura. MT series brakes are garbage, I trashed the levers in weeks on munis, the.calipers are better than the levers, but as a package they are not tandem worthy.


Don't Magura come with a 5 year warranty, did you try and get them replaced???


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

XC Mike said:


> Yo Dan Team Weight on these MT4s??


275ish


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

So at 300lbs for my Team, would you say I would still have some good power at least more than my BB7s?
Also when you have some free time can you post a few pics :thumbsup:


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

Thanks Alex!!!
Just started installing my MT5s, I must say they do look Powerful...


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## Stevoo (Mar 9, 2007)

Just installed Shimano Zee brakes. They replaced the old Hope 4-pot.
Quite an improvement. Smoooth, silent and very powerful. I am very pleased.

Gone is the Hope howl and overheating.

Happy, happy.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

XC Mike said:


> Hi Paul what do you think about the Guide RS model?
> I was at the local shop the other day and was looking at the R model on a single bike looked and felt good....Thinking about going with the RS line after reading all the reviews...


If it matters to anyone, yes I have installed the Guide RS brakes on my Inspired trials bike. On account of having two different throws on the levers, one brake was warrantied. Even before submitting the warranty, I troubleshot the system by moving calipers to the other master cylinders and could not resolve the problem.

Before the swaps, and even with new from SRAM unopened hydraulics I would use the SRAM tools and bleed the crap out of these brakes. Still the levers had different throws.

After installing the warranty replacement, without ever opening the hydraulics it had a different throw than the other two.

I did resolve the problem. While it appears these brakes are an easy bleed, they tend to trap and hold a small amount of air in the hydraulics. This impossible bubble, depending upon size alters the levers throw.

With both brakes bled, deviating from the SRAM instructions, I was able to remove the entrapped air and have both levers with the same throw. On the trials bike, the brakes are strong with good feel.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

I have heard some good things about these brakes, but have not ridden them or seen them installed on a tandem.

PK


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I'm setting up a pair of Guide RS for the Jefe, we had to order longer lines from Jag because SRAM only sells up to a 2000mm line. I'll post a review once we get a few rides in.

The Spykes, as much as I want to like them, just have not been powerful enough to keep us under control. It's not so much a fade problem as just an overall lack of power. I initially had them on my 650FS and it was the same issue.

I honestly think the BB7's are more powerful than the Spykes.



PMK said:


> I have heard some good things about these brakes, but have not ridden them or seen them installed on a tandem.
> 
> PK


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## Stevoo (Mar 9, 2007)

I machined a coupler so I could use genuine Shimano hose(s) for the long run to the back. Only cost $19 for a second hose. A little machine time in the garage and Viola. 
Had to buy the fine thread metric bottom tap though. That was $12.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Setting up Guides for tandem use:

Jagwire makes a 3000mm hose that works, but you need an adaptor Jagwire HFA 202 for "both ends" of the hose.

We got red lines to spice it up a bit. Carpet test was smooth, they are a lot more responsive than a mechanical. Big test this weekend on two miles of steep flow!


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

We're running a pair of Hope 6Tis and they're getting close to their 10-year birthday. Any thoughts on the wisdom of putting in new caliper seals, or better to not fix what isn't broke (as in, they're not leaking now, so that means the seals are fine). They've seen some heat at times - they're on a tandem and we're pushing 360lb.

I have seal kits in stock. I've bled the brakes once during this time and it based on fluid color I didn't even need to do it.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

I have to say I'm a bit surprised to see Guides used on Tandems when they have a known heat rejection issue in the caliper design. They will definitely overheat easier than other brands with equivalent pads. The new special edition Guides are supposed to address some of the cooling issue but I don't know of anyone who has tried them yet.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

FWIW, myself and others that have Guide brakes will welcome you to the brake bleeding masters club.

Even on my trials bike I had to bleed the heck out of them. I even went so far as to make some special tools to help work the air out.

Also, plan on using the SRAM tools, AND, degas at 27"hg minimum, the fluid for about 30 minutes prior to bleeding.

From experience on the Inspired trials bike I would not run Guides on a Tandem. Not a heat issue either.

PK


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Bleeding the Guides is a Pita, esp on the long run to the rear of a tandem.

The Guides work great, no heat issues, no fade, nice feel.

We did a huge downhill on a flow trail built from a steep logging road, I was on the brakes hard for a few miles on a 100 degree day, no issues whatsoever.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Stay on top of the Guides. They need constant bleeding. We don't run them on the tandem and are enough of a PITA on my tiny trials bike.

Also, be forewarned that my experience has had several times during a hard pull on the lever it has gone to the grip. Almost as if the mechanical linkage overpowered something inside the master cylinder.

PK


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## DHMASTER (Oct 12, 2010)

patineto said:


> At the rates of speed that you go and considering how heavy your bike is I'm surprise you don't used motorcycle brakes and rotors, brembo goldline comes to mind..


Just melted a couple more rotors at Mammoth during the Kamikaze Bike Games. I think you are right, I need a full moto set-up for my rear brake. Looking at GSXR brakes and super moto. Hope to have this worked out for Sea Otter next year.


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## DSLR (May 27, 2016)

Dear All,

I know it looks like nekroposting but haven't found better topic to ask my question.

Planning to buy Magura MT5 brakes for my tandem. Those brakes have 2000mm long hoses but its still not enough for me to install it as a rear brake.
Do I have to buy only original Magura 2500mm hose or I can use any other aftermarket hose? Is there any other brand hoses on the market that would fit Magura levers and calipers?

Thanks in advance.


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

Pretty sure you can use any hose such as Goodridge. I would go for a braided hose on the rear though as it keeps the lever much firmer.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

DSLR said:


> Dear All,
> 
> I know it looks like nekroposting but haven't found better topic to ask my question.
> 
> ...


I have them with the longer rear line already made up from the factory if you need a source.


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## DSLR (May 27, 2016)

I'm from Russia. I wonder will it worth regarding shipping cost. Will you ship to Russia?
Could you, pls, PM me with the price and shipping cost. Thank you.


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## DHMASTER (Oct 12, 2010)

Here is my latest attempt to get a powerful reliable rear brake. Brembo for KTM caliper and master cylinder with custom braided line and a 219mm rotor.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

DHMASTER said:


> Here is my latest attempt to get a powerful reliable rear brake. Brembo for KTM caliper and master cylinder with custom braided line and a 219mm rotor.


The caliper force with that much brake may twist the brake mount. Why did you go Brembo from a KTM? They my be powerful but often lack feel compared to some others.

If needed, run one sintered and one organic pad.


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## StanleyJ (Dec 11, 2010)

Looks like Hopetech will have a new 6-pot caliper to replace/complement the existing V4 mega-brake... https://www.facebook.com/adam.brayt...757219957250/1563619410337689/?type=3&theater


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Fancy. Our Mono6 Ti's are still going strong.


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## Anthem1 (Feb 9, 2008)

No issues with our Shimano SLX's on the road or mountain tandem, mineral oil and with the funnel apparatus don't know of an easier line of brakes to maintain.


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## Dr. Paul Proteus (Sep 26, 2004)

We've been running the V4's for a few years now & absolutely love them. Our previous place of residence had crazy steep & technical descents down a ~1500' hill & the V4 + Hope's Vented rotor put a permanent end to our cooked rear brake problem when riding that particular spot.

Easy to setup & work on, smooth operation, and great lever feel are really nice bonuses on top of how great they work. Vented rotor is probably overkill for anyone living in a flatter place, or where the trails don't go exactly straight down the hills, but I don't see us swapping away from it anytime soon.


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## DHMASTER (Oct 12, 2010)

Finally happy with my set up. For the first time ever in seven years of riding the Kamikaze I was able to spend the weekend at Mammoth without any mechanical issues. An adapted motorcycle brake may not be what you need, but it was what I needed.


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## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

Sweet. It's good to see there are a few teams out there pushing tandem development forward. I just sent you a PM, because I'd like to know more about your bike.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Haven't been on our El Conquistador for awhile, but brakes were always an issue. I tried Hope 6-pistons and they sucked.

At some point I am going to have to open the wallet and get new brakes. Shimano has just announced new 4-piston XT brakes. I'm guessing they would be awesome. It looks like trickle down from eBikes might improve the component selection for tandems. I'd be curious if anyone has tried the Magura Boltron fork on a tandem.

MAGURA

https://www.shimano-steps.com/e-bikes/europe/en/product-information/mtb/related-products-mtb


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## Dr. Paul Proteus (Sep 26, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Haven't been on our El Conquistador for awhile, but brakes were always an issue. I tried Hope 6-pistons and they sucked.


What was sucky about the Hope's & which 6-pistons were they (brand new ones, or the old stuff)?

We've been really happy with out Hope Tech 3 V4's. Brakes have great feel, maintenance has been easy, & the vented rotor (in back) can shed heat really well. Our usual terrain has 400-500m descents, so it's not like we're going easy on them.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Dr. Paul Proteus said:


> What was sucky about the Hope's & which 6-pistons were they (brand new ones, or the old stuff)?
> 
> We've been really happy with out Hope Tech 3 V4's. Brakes have great feel, maintenance has been easy, & the vented rotor (in back) can shed heat really well. Our usual terrain has 400-500m descents, so it's not like we're going easy on them.


Our 6-pistons are circa 2002 or so, the very first iteration. I could never get them bled properly, and they never had the power we expected. I've bled a lot of brakes on all kind of vehicles, but nothing worked. Then, the pistons seized after only four months of the bike sitting in a low humidity environment.


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## Dr. Paul Proteus (Sep 26, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Our 6-pistons are circa 2002 or so, the very first iteration.


That makes a bit of sense then. I wouldn't compare 2002 disc brakes from any company with what they make today, unless of course the comparison is just to highlight how far hydraulic discs for bikes have come in the past 15+ years.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I have a fresh pair of Hope V2 Floating rotors, 203mm, black spiders, six bolt.

Very nice rotors, retail is quite a bit more than what I’m asking.

$75 for the set shipping in Conti USA.


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