# Why don"t more girls ride? Redux



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

I just spent some time reading the Girly Girl thread and learned why I didn't get much from my initial post about why more girls don't ride when this Forum first started. I have come to realize that, so to speak, you are either on the bus or off the bus. There is not much revelation here about transition, the development of women riders and their processes or insight into getting Miss Teen America to do DH. What we have here is a sample of women who ended up riding mtb, who were tom boys, revel in being mud magnets, raised with brothers or by fathers without sons whether they clean up real good or not, but not those on the edge. I mean that makes sense of course otherwise why would anyone spend time on this forum. And I don't mean this as put down, either, just a bit of a revelation.


----------



## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

...ooppsss!! now we have a new starter.... **taking up a nice place in the couch and getting the popcorn... this post might be fun!

Well, I think you have a serious stereotype description in your post. I think there are as many reasons why women ride as women riders. So, if you want to know why you don't see miss universe at every ride, I think you're looking in the wrong spot. Maybe head to the local gym or something.

anyway, let's see how this posting develops, have fun!


----------



## aword4you (Jul 25, 2005)

I'm a bit of both worlds. I work out with my hubby 3-4 days a week, and we're in karate classes until November. I used to be a tomboy - played basketball, football, soccer, baseball, rode bmx bikes on small neighborhood jumps/burms, rode skateboards, rollerblades - but haven't been in a long time. I was really inactive for awhile during school and after starting work. But, getting back in to fitness. Hubby used to mountain bike (long before I met him) and after watching the Tour this year, we decided to get bikes. I don't necessarily like being dirt/mud covered, but I can deal with it. We've raced r/c cars for the past 3 years, and trust me, after a day of that, you're anything but clean. I still wear makeup to the track, though (albeit minimal). I love watching NFL football, but also like shopping with my mom and wearing name brands. So, I dunno where I would be classified. 

I think it's partly just due to the fact that a lot of girls/women aren't exposed to mountain biking/cycling. Other sports are readily available through school, and even yield scholarships, etc. I couldnt' even get my sister to try out martial arts, though, so maybe it's just because people would rather go for a walk/run at night, are lazy, or poor  .


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*RZ: I guess you lack context*



rzozaya1969 said:


> ...ooppsss!! now we have a new starter.... **taking up a nice place in the couch and getting the popcorn... this post might be fun!
> 
> Well, I think you have a serious stereotype description in your post. I think there are as many reasons why women ride as women riders. So, if you want to know why you don't see miss universe at every ride, I think you're looking in the wrong spot. Maybe head to the local gym or something.
> 
> anyway, let's see how this posting develops, have fun!


Somehow you have managed to miss the point and I think your attitude only incindiary.

Reread what the women posters have written to define themselves in terms of the Girly Girl thread; my icons are just samples from the thread. The reference to my posts about getting girls into the sport have extended over months, since the inception of this particular Forum, and are motivated by a desire to integrate girls and develop them as athletes in our High School MTB League.

The reference to Miss Teen is simply an extreme end of a sample of girls not particularly well represented in this forum. I might suggest that they have even been referred to disparagingly as "Barbie Girls," but more importantly, they are a portion of the very wide range of women who do not participate in this sport. I have tried to understand the how and why of women who do not ride and how to get them interested. I have many posts to this effect and stand by them.

My statement was a new, and puzzling, awareness of the kind of women who DO ride, as represented in this Forum as opposed to the women who don't ride. Further, it suggests a curious perspective I have experienced with accomplished female athletes when I describe the challenges to get girls to participate. They look at me like either I am crazy or the girls are worthless (lazy, weak, silly...whatever) as the athlete I am talking to was up before dawn and did her 40 miles, has to drag her boyfriend around because he is off the back and will do this every day. It lead me to challenging such a forum for insight into the problem of transitioning girls into this sport.

Put simply; the Gals here are AFTERS and I am looking for BEFORES and how to identify them and support their transition into the sport. This Forum is full of AFTERS; what perspective do they bring? It is a fair question which has, at issue, a question of will and disposition to support girls who haven't made it this far. At the same time, these women need not share my mission; sometimes all anyone wants to do is just ride. I know I do.


----------



## Jewell of D(enial) (Apr 25, 2005)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I just spent some time reading the Girly Girl thread and learned why I didn't get much from my initial post about why more girls don't ride when this Forum first started. I have come to realize that, so to speak, you are either on the bus or off the bus. There is not much revelation here about transition, the development of women riders and their processes or insight into getting Miss Teen America to do DH. What we have here is a sample of women who ended up riding mtb, who were tom boys, revel in being mud magnets, raised with brothers or by fathers without sons whether they clean up real good or not, but not those on the edge. I mean that makes sense of course otherwise why would anyone spend time on this forum. And I don't mean this as put down, either, just a bit of a revelation.


I think I know what you mean my "on the bus or off the bus." I can only think of one girl friend who is in the process of learning mountain biking. All others who ride like I do have just been doing it, like it was in their blood or genes or something. I know it was in mine. I've always ridden a bike. I can't remember if there was time where I all the sudden wanted to ride, ride, ride, and think dirt all the time. It just was me. The women I know that don't ride now, it seems to me, probably never will. They just haven't been exposed, and are in a confort zone or whatever that doesn't include mountian biking. Good point, Berkely Mike. Hummm...


----------



## mushypeas (Jul 28, 2005)

*really adding sodium to water*

In my experience of 40 or more girlfriends (yeah I know... I am a stud!!!).. A fair proportion of those girls had no hobbies. In fact, I came to the conclusion a while back that girls have less interests and hobbies than boys.

How often do you see a girl with a hi-fi? A set of decks? Or a good and sizeable music collection? Or a bling computer? Cubase and Fruityloops? Or the knowledge to go surfing for files on torrent? Or a skateboard? Or weights? Or a mountain bike?

Will a girl agonize for days over which size discs she should buy and which pads? Will a girl obsess over 17in alloy rims for her car? Will a girl set the airflow in her computer to suck in on the front and blow out on the back? With LED fans and Reostat and just the right dab of thermal paste?

Most girls are ONLY interested in make-up, shopping, boys, and watching TV. More boys than girls have hobbies. Doing the housework is not a hobby.

My friend (who's a girl) thinks my view is sexist, but I think I feel I am just calling a spade a spade! A lot of people don't like the truth nowadays. I have already decided to buy my gf a mountain bike. I don't care if she doesn't ride it much, but it will be nice for her to join me sometimes. I notice that strong relationships often have a shared hobby - even if it's just going to the movies. Or is that a date and not a hobby?

Ramble over.

(ducks from the few women on here that have hobbies - even though most of them are really middle-aged lonely gay male truckers from the Bronx).


----------



## SheFly (Aug 11, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> In my experience of 40 or more girlfriends (yeah I know... I am a stud!!!).. A fair proportion of those girls had no hobbies. In fact, I came to the conclusion a while back that girls have less interests and hobbies than boys.
> 
> ...
> 
> Most girls are ONLY interested in make-up, shopping, boys, and watching TV. More boys than girls have hobbies. Doing the housework is not a hobby.


Uh-Oh! I think you'd better run and hide, stud-boy! First of all, I think you are dating all the wrong girls. Did you pick them up in the bar or at the mall?

Second, MOST girls are NOT interested in make-up, shopping, boys and watching TV. ESPECIALLY not the women on this forum! I don't wear makeup, I only shop when necessary, and the TV is rarely on. I DO ride my bike 5 days a week. I DO read books. I DO work on improving my homes (including full construction work, not just cleaning....), I DO snowmobile in the winter and prep the trails for the season in the fall (including buidling bridges, clearing brush, etc.). And I DO obsess over bike parts and snowmobile gear.

My point - don't paint MOST "girls" with one brush.

Oh - and Berkley Mike - I started out riding with my hubby. It took a LONG time for me to love the riding for myself, and not because it was something that he did. I was NOT a tomboy (my mom now thinks I am an alien actually  ). I have gotten other women into the sport as well, but they have not been as impassioned as I am - many are afraid of getting hurt more than afraid of getting dirty. Some women I know like to ride their bikes, but have no interest in cleaning a tough section, improving their technical skills, or riding for more than an hour. What I have found, as an observation, is that it is easier to entice women to ride with other women. Thankfully, I am lucky to have a large contingent of female riding pals who are willing to help newbie riders.

Sorry for the long post.....

SheFly


----------



## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> In my experience of 40 or more girlfriends (yeah I know... I am a stud!!!).. A fair proportion of those girls had no hobbies. In fact, I came to the conclusion a while back that girls have less interests and hobbies than boys.
> 
> ...
> 
> Most girls are ONLY interested in make-up, shopping, boys, and watching TV. More boys than girls have hobbies. Doing the housework is not a hobby.


Yep, we women are all pretty dull. But, there's always a solution for great men like you who have figured us out through all your dating experience: you could simply switch teams.


----------



## *rt* (Jan 15, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> In my experience of 40 or more girlfriends (yeah I know... I am a stud!!!).. A fair proportion of those girls had no hobbies. In fact, I came to the conclusion a while back that girls have less interests and hobbies than boys.
> 
> How often do you see a girl with a hi-fi? A set of decks? Or a good and sizeable music collection? Or a bling computer? Cubase and Fruityloops? Or the knowledge to go surfing for files on torrent? Or a skateboard? Or weights? Or a mountain bike?
> 
> ...


your view is sexist. which could explain why you seem to end up dating girls who think that shopping is a hobby (which, in fact, it might be for some people. just because you don't think that's an interesting way to spend your time doesn't mean that everyone agrees with you).



mushypeas said:


> (ducks from the few women on here that have hobbies - even though most of them are really middle-aged lonely gay male truckers from the Bronx).


the _*FEW * _ women on this forum who have hobbies?!?! you don't think mountain biking is a hobby? every single female who posts on this forum has mountain biking as a hobby.

i really hope that was an attempt at humor.

rt


----------



## MidAtlanticXCer (May 21, 2004)

*she's right*



mushypeas said:


> My friend (who's a girl) thinks my view is sexist, but I think I feel I am just calling a spade a spade!


Nah, you're a pig. But hey, being a pig can be a hobby too! Have fun with it.


----------



## mushypeas (Jul 28, 2005)

Probably less than 5% of the posters on this forum are female. 

So I stand by what I have said. From the age of 15 to 36, most of the girls I have dated or known have not had hobbies. Girls have less hobbies than boys. Women have less hobbies than men. Watching soap operas might be considered a hobby by some, but not in my book.

I know I am right.


----------



## SheFly (Aug 11, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> Probably less than 5% of the posters on this forum are female.
> 
> So I stand by what I have said. From the age of 15 to 36, most of the girls I have dated or known have not had hobbies. Girls have less hobbies than boys. Women have less hobbies than men. Watching soap operas might be considered a hobby by some, but not in my book.
> 
> I know I am right.


Hmm, sexist AND stubborn! Not sure where you get your statistics from either, but the MAJORITY of the posters on this forum ARE female..... Except for you - and WHY are you here???????

SheFly


----------



## mushypeas (Jul 28, 2005)

The majority of MTB review are male.

The majority on just about every conceivable hobby imaginable across cyberspace are male.

Though there's bound to be a few boys, shopping, and make-up sites that have mostly women. That's provided the women can learn how to use their boyfriend's/husband's connection to log in.


----------



## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> Probably less than 5% of the posters on this forum are female.
> 
> So I stand by what I have said. From the age of 15 to 36, most of the girls I have dated or known have not had hobbies. Girls have less hobbies than boys. Women have less hobbies than men. Watching soap operas might be considered a hobby by some, but not in my book.
> 
> I know I am right.


So, now you're deciding what's a hobby and what's not a hobby? hmmm, fine.

It reminds me of an adage, when you're the most uncertain it's time to act like you were certain 

And, I guess you have dated tons of girls, from different parts and ages as to have a significant sample of the female species as to make that assumption (them not having as many hobbies).

And besides, the main difference between a boy and a man is the price of their toys


----------



## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

Mikie.... If my brain hasn't totally melted by now, you coach kids right? I'm assuming that's the perspective you're coming from- why is segment A of the female population interested in cycling, is there anything we can do to widen that segment or is it always going to be narrow, and how does one identify a gal as being part of segment A.

There's surely a whole host of factors, but I think there's a *MAJOR *lesson in Impy's "Why people dislike mountain biking (aka the THING)" post. And Mushypeaters might have inadvertantly added an important twist on the lesson as well.

Quite simply, most girls NEVER get a chance to ride a good bike... young gals I know making major purcahases are spending money on furniture or other 'useful' items (MP may wail about girls not having a bling computer & all the associated toys, but he's not admitting that most such guys are setting it up on the dirty carpet -vacum? what vacum?- as they're consuming nuked dinty moore stew in bowls their mom gave them). For one reason or another, most gals never learn how to use gearing properly. They never learn to spin. They never know that a saddle can be something other than a crotch-cleaver.

Once you combine that initial impression with the pervasive "X-game-factor" marketing plus urban legend that makes cycling seem scary, and you've got a pile major strikes against the XX population getting involved. Simply put: if cycling is complicated, expensive, painful, dangerous, and impractical... why the heck should a gal even bother with it?!?

*sigh* We've got a LONG way to go.


----------



## CycleMainiac (Jan 12, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> In my experience of 40 or more girlfriends (yeah I know... I am a stud!!!)..


gee, do you have any idea why no girls will STAY your girl friend?



alaskarider}Yep said:


> ROTFLMAO
> 
> Best response yet
> 
> ...


----------



## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> The majority of MTB review are male.
> 
> The majority on just about every conceivable hobby imaginable across cyberspace are male.
> 
> Though there's bound to be a few boys, shopping, and make-up sites that have mostly women. That's provided the women can learn how to use their boyfriend's/husband's connection to log in.


??? So, I think it's more likely that more men are into MTB than women. I think that I agree on you on this. Maybe more men spend more time in cyberspace regarding their hobbies, fine. You may be right. But from agreeing to this to saying that women have fewer hobbies, that's right of the mark. Specially when you're biased as to what a hobby is or isn't.

Maybe you don't like to cook but you need to do it. So, cooking is not a hobby to you, but it is to a lot of other people (men and women). They are looking for recipies, cooking utencils, etc., and they don't do it just so they won't go hungre, but because they like it.

So, maybe for you shopping for clothes is something you do when you have absolutely no clothes (I admit I'm kinda like that, don't like cloth shops), but for some people they may consider it a hobby.

So, you're still looking at a small and insufficient sample and assume that the whole universe is like what you see..


----------



## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> Probably less than 5% of the posters on this forum are female.
> 
> So I stand by what I have said. From the age of 15 to 36, most of the girls I have dated or known have not had hobbies. Girls have less hobbies than boys. Women have less hobbies than men. Watching soap operas might be considered a hobby by some, but not in my book.
> 
> I know I am right.


I'm going to assume you mean on MTBR as a whole? But you're posting in the women's lounge, where at least 90% of the posters are female. (And yes, we are actually female, and many of us have gotten together to ride, seen each other at races, etc.) I would say if you're into mountain biking enough to be posting here on a regular basis - it's a hobby. 

Why is it not surprising you can't find any women to date who have hobbies or interesting lives?


----------



## MidAtlanticXCer (May 21, 2004)

*cuz all those craft shops are aimed at guys, right?*



rzozaya1969 said:


> So, now you're deciding what's a hobby and what's not a hobby? hmmm, fine.


Yah, RZ, nailed it! Clearly quilting, reading, sewing, gardening, fancy cooking & baking, painting, and all the billion-dollar industries aimed at women aren't hobbies! Not sure what they are, but whatever.  Clearly since I have hobbies and post to this, the women's forum, I am a dude. Which should surprise my daughter and husband to no end when I tell them this evening, after my weekly club bike ride and post-ride pub visit. (Bikes and good beer - 2 of my favorite hobbies).


----------



## Nicros (Aug 16, 2005)

*mushypeas*

Well, you could be right - I know a lot of women don't seem to have the particular hobbies that guys do. That's usually becuase they're doing things like looking after kids, taking care of the house (you know laundry, cleaning etc). One other thing, women tend not to focus as much on themselves and instead look for ways to help others so I would venture to bet that if you looked at volunteers in your community - there would be many more women than men. Hobbies can turn into a selfish pursuit and you're perfectly correct in identifying that men pursue hobbies to a greater extent than women.

I guess I'm still a bit selfish in that my hobbies definitely override my reciprocal relationship to the community I live in (though I have tried to rectify that as of late). My hobbies: Mtn biking, skateboarding, snowboarding, trail running, bouldering, backpacking, football proper - GO NUFC this is your year to take out MUFC, Aresenal and Chelsea (or as its called in north america - soccer), rally car racing, downloading music.

To that extent, my list of equip: 4 bikes - Hard tail for dirt jumping and North Shore, 4" dual squish for XC epics, road bike with campy components, long board, short board, GNU snowboard, 6 pairs of running shoes - 2 trail, 3 road, bouldering shoes, chalk and bag, building my own rally car from an old subaru Impressa body, own my own backpacking gear, music - The Arcade Fire, Wilco, Snow Patrol, Yo La Tengo, Xavier Rudd, N. Mississippi Allstars - all of course downloaded and then placed on my Sony MP3 player. Oh I've also recent taken up surfing on the Great Lakes when good surf comes in. I'm also trying to become a little more helpful to my community so when I finish defending my master's thesis, I'm going to join St. John's Ambulance to provide emergency care at sports, festivals and social events.

I'm sorry you can't seem to find women with more hobbies. We're out there - its just hard to find guys not intimidated by us, they tend to go for the women without hobbies.


----------



## MidAtlanticXCer (May 21, 2004)

*Lol!*

Thanks CM! Just the right tone!


----------



## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Somehow you have managed to miss the point and I think your attitude only incindiary.
> 
> Reread what the women posters have written to define themselves in terms of the Girly Girl thread; my icons are just samples from the thread. The reference to my posts about getting girls into the sport have extended over months, since the inception of this particular Forum, and are motivated by a desire to integrate girls and develop them as athletes in our High School MTB League.
> 
> ...


MIke, based on your answer, and the response you're looking for, I think it may be a good post.
But if you would have rewrotten the post mentioning that you're looking to bring more women into biking, it would have been more descriptive. Anyway, the way you posted it sounds to me as to bring controversy, which it has.


----------



## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

verslowrdr said:


> Mikie.... If my brain hasn't totally melted by now, you coach kids right? I'm assuming that's the perspective you're coming from- why is segment A of the female population interested in cycling, is there anything we can do to widen that segment or is it always going to be narrow, and how does one identify a gal as being part of segment A.
> 
> There's surely a whole host of factors, but I think there's a *MAJOR *lesson in Impy's "Why people dislike mountain biking (aka the THING)" post. And Mushypeaters might have inadvertantly added an important twist on the lesson as well.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. But to some extent, there are a bunch of women out there who just have no intention of getting dirty or exerting themselves beyond a light sweat on the treadmill in their air conditioned gym (and I don't know where you'd start with the ones that never leave the couch). Don't forget - there are plenty of couch potato guys out there too. I know it's popped up quite a few times, but I know when I'm out on the trails, especially around Park City - I'd say I see nearly as many women as I do men. It probably just depends on where you live.

I would like to see more young girls learning to ride (I can only imagine how much better I'd be if I started as a kid vs. starting at 27.) Parents, school programs - all that can help, I think. But I know several parents who introduced their daughters to MTBing and they got fairly good and then quit because they hated it/wanted to do their own thing/would rather go to the mall with their friends, etc.

I was a tomboy growing up, but with other things - hiking, catching snakes, etc. Yet my Dad just wrote me a letter telling me how concerned he and Mom are about my "Extreme" lifestyle (mind you, my husband and I have good full time jobs, don't drink much except for a couple beers after big rides, etc.). They'd do anything to turn me into a church-going couch potato like my sister is. What's the difference? I have no idea. I think I'm just wired this way.


----------



## VT Mtbkr (Jan 19, 2004)

Back to the original question. I think it's a totally different trying to get a female teenager to mountain bike as opposed to an adult. Although I grew up riding bikes and being a tomboy I didn't start mountain biking until after college. 

So much of being a teenager is going with the crowd and being accepted by others, mountain biking is in some ways a very solitary sport which does not lend itself to being accepted by teenagers whether they're male or female I suppose. I played soccer throughout high school because that was the sport my group of friends were playing and at that point I was into trying to be accepted into a group. 

Going through college and learning your own identity makes it easier to decide what you are intersted in that doesn't have to involve the "cool" crowd. When I started biking I knew only knew a couple of people but I didn't care, I loved it. Unfortunatly some females never get over having to fit in no matter what their age.

I'm trying to encourage one female teenager I know. Her dad races and she has a nice bike but she's 15 and has got boys, driving and other sports on her mind. She comes out to ride if she has nothing else to do but her friends aren't into it and I can't really blame her for wanting to go with the crowd at her age (I was the same way). She'll come back to it I know after being socially accepted is no longer the first thing on her mind.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*There is an unfortunate tendancy to wander off*

the point of a post to wrestle with something tangential. The response to mushy is typical of this tendancy and is about as productive as trading insults. In this forum if something appears sexist to someone then THAT becomes the issue as opposed to the initial post which started the thread.


----------



## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

The funny thing is that it seems as though it takes a certain mindset to be interested in outdoor activities and stuff hobbies that are usually male dominated. It's not necessarily about your upbringing... on the other thread there were a few people (including myself) who have a sister that is not into MTB or any other outdoor sports at all.

My sister is 2 1/2 years younger than me, and we have no brothers. She likes to watch TV, go to the cinema, hang out with her friends in the pub, go clubbing, go shopping, read magazines, go to concerts... that kind of stuff. On the other hand, I like to ride bikes, work out at the gym, hike, play video games, play Dungeons & Dragons, surf the net, watch/play sports (even if I suck at them) etc. We grew up in the same house with the same parents, and were treated equally. The differences between us are not a recent thing either, they've always been there. Ever since we were kids, I'd be more interested in helping my dad with his boat stuff and my sister would want to go shopping for shoes.

I don't have an explanation for differences between siblings... it's just one of those strange things that makes us who we are. I'm not so sure there's a solution to enlarging the percentage of women who are interested in outdoor activities either. Media coverage would help, but some people are just more interested in hair and nails than mud and dirt.

Mushypeas... it's not that women have fewer hobbies than men, it's that you don't consider their hobbies as worthy of the name. Just because you don't require an expensive bit of kit to do something doesn't mean it's not a hobby. Maybe rather than 'hobbies' you should define 'interests'. Not many people would classify going to the pub as a hobby, but it is certainly an interest.

- Jen.


----------



## little b (Jan 7, 2004)

you know, your trolling was actually a bit clever for awhile, but then you just took it too far. toning it down a bit comes off less like trolling. work on that a bit, will ya?



mushypeas said:



> The majority of MTB review are male.
> 
> The majority on just about every conceivable hobby imaginable across cyberspace are male.
> 
> Though there's bound to be a few boys, shopping, and make-up sites that have mostly women. That's provided the women can learn how to use their boyfriend's/husband's connection to log in.


----------



## SheFly (Aug 11, 2004)

*Many apologies...*



Berkeley Mike said:


> the point of a post to wrestle with something tangential. The response to mushy is typical of this tendancy and is about as productive as trading insults. In this forum if something appears sexist to someone then THAT becomes the issue as opposed to the initial post which started the thread.


You are right, and I apologize. I'm glad to see that the post has come back on track. And in case it got lost in my ramblings, here was my response to your original post:

"Oh - and Berkley Mike - I started out riding with my hubby. It took a LONG time for me to love the riding for myself, and not because it was something that he did. I was NOT a tomboy (my mom now thinks I am an alien actually ). I have gotten other women into the sport as well, but they have not been as impassioned as I am - many are afraid of getting hurt more than afraid of getting dirty. Some women I know like to ride their bikes, but have no interest in cleaning a tough section, improving their technical skills, or riding for more than an hour. What I have found, as an observation, is that it is easier to entice women to ride with other women. Thankfully, I am lucky to have a large contingent of female riding pals who are willing to help newbie riders."

I would also agree with several of the other women here - I do believe that teenage girls have a lot of other interests, and are greatly persuaded by peer pressure. If mountain biking isn't seen as "cool" they don't want to be seen doing it. Most of the women riders that I know didn't get into it until at least college.

Again, my apologies for taking us down the wrong road...

SheFly


----------



## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

SheFly said:


> "Oh - and Berkley Mike - I started out riding with my hubby. It took a LONG time for me to love the riding for myself, and not because it was something that he did. I was NOT a tomboy (my mom now thinks I am an alien actually ). I have gotten other women into the sport as well, but they have not been as impassioned as I am - many are afraid of getting hurt more than afraid of getting dirty. Some women I know like to ride their bikes, but have no interest in cleaning a tough section, improving their technical skills, or riding for more than an hour. What I have found, as an observation, is that it is easier to entice women to ride with other women. Thankfully, I am lucky to have a large contingent of female riding pals who are willing to help newbie riders."
> 
> SheFly


that could be my story, thanks SheFly.

~formica


----------



## mushypeas (Jul 28, 2005)

See... you all had to be introduced to the sport through your men folk.


----------



## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> See... you all had to be introduced to the sport through your men folk.


I admit it - I was too. The summer before I met my husband (BF at the time), who introduced me to mountain biking, I went hiking, paragliding, rock climbing, bungee jumping, canyoning, hiking, snorkeling around Crete, played football and softball on occasion, and traveled around Europe. Amazing I didn't die of boredom.


----------



## sarahk (May 25, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> Probably less than 5% of the posters on this forum are female.
> 
> So I stand by what I have said. From the age of 15 to 36, most of the girls I have dated or known have not had hobbies. Girls have less hobbies than boys. Women have less hobbies than men. Watching soap operas might be considered a hobby by some, but not in my book.
> 
> I know I am right.


Shut up


----------



## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> See... you all had to be introduced to the sport through your men folk.


Wrong! I introduced my man to biking.

- Jen.


----------



## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Somehow you have managed to miss the point and I think your attitude only incindiary.
> 
> Reread what the women posters have written to define themselves in terms of the Girly Girl thread; my icons are just samples from the thread. The reference to my posts about getting girls into the sport have extended over months, since the inception of this particular Forum, and are motivated by a desire to integrate girls and develop them as athletes in our High School MTB League.
> 
> ...


Have you asked the girls on your team or on other teams? The girls who race cross country and other equivalent sports?

Build a good program and the women who are BEFORES will find you. Build something that will not intimidate the girl on the fence. Build something that looks fun, social and interesting. Build something that lets them interact with boys, but not be "run" by them.

I know that the Calvary Chapel girls got motivated for the social aspects. Their friends were doing it, it looked fun, there were lots of cute boys, and their friends were doing it (written twice on purpose)

Sabine

Use the girls who are in the program now for ideas on how to attract more and gain momentum.


----------



## divs (Jun 4, 2004)

Sabine said:


> Their friends were doing it, it looked fun, there were lots of cute boys, and their friends were doing it (written twice on purpose)


Hear hear!

I rode my bike a lot as kid with my friends. Then I moved to LA, and none of my friends rode, so guess what? I stopped riding my bike.

All of my activities were either with friends or with my parents (being an only child). My parents are what got me to be comfortable in the outdoors. We'd visit national parks, go hiking, camping, etc.. Mostly, though, I grew up as a big nerd - I liked to paint, dance and read science fiction. I was a far cry from being a tomboy!

I was introduced to mtn biking thru my then BF, now husband, but I didn't enjoy it until a) I got off my THING, researched and bought myself a nice bike, b) started reading this forum and realizing that plenty of women enjoy and excel at mtn biking, c) starting riding alone and with other women, and d) started actively trying to exercise and get in shape.

Oh yeah, wearing pads helped, too! Now I'm trying to recruit various of my female friends to try out the sport as well. Peer pressure is a wonderous thing. 

-D.


----------



## *rt* (Jan 15, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> Probably less than 5% of the posters on this forum are female.
> 
> So I stand by what I have said. From the age of 15 to 36, most of the girls I have dated or known have not had hobbies. Girls have less hobbies than boys. Women have less hobbies than men. Watching soap operas might be considered a hobby by some, but not in my book.
> 
> I know I am right.


maybe you should try dating smarter and more interesting girls.

just a suggestion. 

rt


----------



## Hello Kitty (Sep 3, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> So I stand by what I have said. From the age of 15 to 36, most of the girls I have dated or known have not had hobbies. Girls have less hobbies than boys. Women have less hobbies than men. Watching soap operas might be considered a hobby by some, but not in my book.
> 
> I know I am right.


Well, I know you're right too, but I do believe you're part of your own problem, mushy. Some questions for you ....

Do the girls you date generally ...

1) agree with you that space exploration is a hoax?
2) share your belief that the Illuminati is running the world?
3) hang out in sh*tty clubs where "trance" music is often played? Very loudly?

If you answered yes to any of these three questions, the reasons why chicks you date don't have hobbies may be because they're just too stupid or brain-fried to take them up. Every now and then you might want stop mining for conspiracy theories in cyberspace and try to meet sober girls, in the daylight, who don't believe that the CIA killed Jimi Hendrix and doubt very seriously that Hitler was half werewolf.

Doing so might increase your chances of finding women who actually take up hobbies that you apparently so respect. That's good! 

It may also decrease your already remote chances of getting laid. That's bad. 

And no, I don't have any idea how much Potassium Benzoate may exist in your Frogurt


----------



## brg (Sep 7, 2004)

*yeah...*



*rt* said:


> maybe you should try dating smarter and more interesting girls.
> 
> just a suggestion.
> 
> rt


but the problem with that is the smarter and more interesting girls are *smart enough* not to date a bozo like mushy...

I mean based on his posts who in their right mind would put up with someone like that??

looks like he's stuck with the girls w/o hobbies...


----------



## Shannon-UT (Mar 26, 2004)

> Put simply; the Gals here are AFTERS and I am looking for BEFORES and how to identify them and support their transition into the sport.


Weren't we all "befores" each with a different story? Are you looking for how to identify an "atypical female MTBR member" teenager and get her into mountain biking? Someone already in a sport now?


----------



## wolftrack (Jul 28, 2005)

*Why Mtn Bike*



Berkeley Mike said:


> I just spent some time reading the Girly Girl thread and learned why I didn't get much from my initial post about why more girls don't ride when this Forum first started. I have come to realize that, so to speak, you are either on the bus or off the bus. There is not much revelation here about transition, the development of women riders and their processes or insight into getting Miss Teen America to do DH. What we have here is a sample of women who ended up riding mtb, who were tom boys, revel in being mud magnets, raised with brothers or by fathers without sons whether they clean up real good or not, but not those on the edge. I mean that makes sense of course otherwise why would anyone spend time on this forum. And I don't mean this as put down, either, just a bit of a revelation.


As for myself: I have been into sports all of my life. I have always dated guys that supported that and now my husband and I have a lot of the same interests. My first love is snow skiing but I love mtn. biking. I am addicted to climbing. I am not afraid to sweat, get dirty or even fall. I have introduced friends and they don't like the hills, (they hurt too much) the dirt or "helmet hair". A lot then complain about their weight and go on stupid diets. I still road ride and used to run marathons and honestly don't understand why some girls do not get into some sort of activity. Maybe it is how they are raised, what society expects or even genetic. I know guys who don't like mtn biking because of the hills. To each his own.


----------



## sportsman (Mar 2, 2004)

Poor mushforbrains

stuck mtbing on the gravel paths in britain

with one song reverberating throughout his life

I ain't got no friends to call my own
I just sit here all alone
There's no girls that wanna touch me


----------



## MKULTRA (Aug 24, 2005)

sportsman said:


> Poor mushforbrains
> 
> stuck mtbing on the gravel paths in britain
> 
> ...


Don't be too hard on him. Mushypeas has no choice. He does what we want him to do.


----------



## AlexAK (May 5, 2005)

alaskarider said:


> Yep, we women are all pretty dull. But, there's always a solution for great men like you who have figured us out through all your dating experience: you could simply switch teams.


Hilarious! I needed to read something like this to turn around my day. 

Of course any woman not attracted to mushforbrains is a lesbian too.


----------



## sportsman (Mar 2, 2004)

MKULTRA said:


> Don't be too hard on him. Mushypeas has no choice. He does what we want him to do.


the CIA uses mind control on Alex Jones


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Calvary Chapel is a very special and wonderful case.*



Sabine said:


> Have you asked the girls on your team or on other teams? The girls who race cross country and other equivalent sports?
> 
> Build a good program and the women who are BEFORES will find you. Build something that will not intimidate the girl on the fence. Build something that looks fun, social and interesting. Build something that lets them interact with boys, but not be "run" by them.
> 
> ...


The philosphical bonds in that community are extremely substantial it it doesn't suffer from the competition with the other sports that most any other school has. Neither does it suffer from the demographic disparity that many schools have. It is also run by a husband a wife coaching team central to the school and both of their kids of appropriate age are dedicated cyclists who's personal relationships branch out and encompass others. There is little to divert these kids from what they do and everything to bond them together. It is like being on an island with bikes and no soccer ball. The group is also at a critical size which can be encompassed by the availible adult talent. It has a critical mass for their resources and that, in itself, is an incredible effect.

Special circumstances have brought female athletes into their fold, dare I say busom, providing them with an instant community for their short term stay in the area. One happened to be a Cross Country Champion now at a school without a cross country team. What luck! Another was a scratch beginner but recieved incredible support from this intimate community. I worked with both the girls at the Tamrancho Camp and have a pretty clear idea of how far they have come. They are wonderful girls and have done well.

I know this family very well, have been a guest in their home several times, know their program, and have a great affection for them. I have openly admired what their kids have done and watched them grow up in the last 3 years. I have, in addition, had the opportunity to speak at length with member families of this group and am certain we hold each other in high regard. Sadly, half of their girls will be lost to the team as their families are moving.

This group, and these girls, enjoy a unique circumstance, and they are hardly a model, but a wonderful ideal and precious for all of that.


----------



## achiral (Apr 22, 2004)

I have had the discussion on the relative number of women/men in different sports. It does seem like there is significant difference between, say, rock climbing and mountain biking vs tennis and volleyball. 

I think that a significant amount of this is merely societal pressures - not a lot of women are, as children, expected to go out and play in the dirt. If an activity is deemed socially acceptable or/and an appropriate opportunity to learn in a non-competitive environment is provided, it seem that women are often just as likely as men to engage in outdoor type endeavors.

Mountain biking is, in essence, an individual sport. This brings up two issues: 1) Most women I know aren't comfortable going solo. Be it trail running, backpacking, or mountain biking, there are concerns of crime, etc. I personally have not heard of greater incidence of women getting mugged/raped than men in these types of activities, but the fear is there. If you are always trying to hunt down and coordinate with a riding partner, I can see this being a negative for getting involved in the activity. I have noticed that many of the women in this forum feel comfortable riding solo - I'm curious if they had misgivings initially? 

2) Many of the women that I have brought into climbing (taking out groups of beginners, watching people get hooked) have a very strong athletic background, but in team sports. Although, as I mentioned, they often get very interested in climbing, I have heard repeated remarks about how the social aspects of the team sport is missed. Of particular note (and surprise to me), I have heard two previous collegiate division I athletes (track, volleyball) state that they miss camaraderie with teammates more than they do the sport. This may be a common attitude with men, too? I don't know.

In regards to getting high schoolers involved? Show that the sport is cool, is open to guys and girls, make it social and a place to make friends. And also keep the attitude that a girl can be both 'pretty' and still mountain bike - because it 'is' high school, after all. (And it's the truth, too - who could possibly look better than a girl who mountain bikes? 

As a side note to mushypeas. I think that attitude and respect have more to do with anything in terms of the women (and men) that you know. The majority of women I know have more hobbies than they know what to do with - I picked up rock climbing, skydiving, and some excellent recipes from female friends. Perhaps, just perhaps, the old adage that "birds of feather flock together" holds true?


----------



## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> The philosphical bonds in that community are extremely substantial it it doesn't suffer from the competition with the other sports that most any other school has. Neither does it suffer from the demographic disparity that many schools have. It is also run by a husband a wife coaching team central to the school and both of their kids of appropriate age are dedicated cyclists who's personal relationships branch out and encompass others. There is little to divert these kids from what they do and everything to bond them together. It is like being on an island with bikes and no soccer ball. The group is also at a critical size which can be encompassed by the availible adult talent. It has a critical mass for their resources and that, in itself, is an incredible effect.
> 
> Special circumstances have brought female athletes into their fold, dare I say busom, providing them with an instant community for their short term stay in the area. One happened to be a Cross Country Champion now at a school without a cross country team. What luck! Another was a scratch beginner but recieved incredible support from this intimate community. I worked with both the girls at the Tamrancho Camp and have a pretty clear idea of how far they have come. They are wonderful girls and have done well.
> 
> ...


Those special circumstances would not have prevailed if there was not an interesting social network for the girls to be a part of. Doesn't matter how that network comes to be, but it must exist if you want to attract the fence sitters.

My point remains that what started out as Mark's daughter and her friend grew because of the social aspects. Girls that age are such social creatures. Yes, the Calvary Chapel/Kintz situation might be unique in some respects, but it grew beyond Teresa and Sonja because it was perceived as a fun social event for the girls. Heck, even with all the riding that surrounds their family, Teresa wasn't interested until she discovered how many cute boys were involved. There is no such thing as an island when you are cute, young and 17 years old!

Sabine


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I don't quite agree with you about the network.*

Not that it is not necessary nor that it matters how it comes about. I just think that you underestimate the complexity that is avoided in a small school enclave and the fortuitous nature of the presence of these girls. This club is THE bright athletic spot in the whole school. In addition, Teresa did not happen in a vacuum but as as consequence of a very determined and delicate titration of pressures extended and mitigated by two very dynamic and enriching mtb racer parents. It has to be done carefully .Cycling (and surfing) is what this family does. One cannot deny that this is a major effect. All the talk in the world that she did this on her own doesn't hold water. As to other girls one of them is a long time next door neighbor who also goes to this school.What do you know? Without these circumstances I doubt there would be girls on the team at all. 
I'd say that these are very special set of pressures not availible to most of us and it is a chicken and egg problem. If we had girls we could get girls but first we need girls who aren't already busy with Soccer, Volleyball, Softball, Basetball, Leadership, the Temple, Sea Scouts,Cross Country. Calvary Chapel has eggs in the nest.


----------



## moonbeam (Dec 21, 2004)

*General Hospital was sooo good today!!!*



mushypeas said:


> Probably less than 5% of the posters on this forum are female.
> 
> So I stand by what I have said. From the age of 15 to 36, most of the girls I have dated or known have not had hobbies. Girls have less hobbies than boys. Women have less hobbies than men. Watching soap operas might be considered a hobby by some, but not in my book.
> 
> I know I am right.


It's taken me forever to figure out how to login on my boyfriends account. But I finally did it!

I don't know about ya'll but I had so much fun today sitting on my sofa watching todays soaps and cleaning the house. What ever would I do without these fabulous hobbies in my life??? 

Thank goodness we have good men in our lives who can introduce us to the outdoors.


----------



## sunnyracegirl (Apr 11, 2004)

Denisovich said:


> ...I think that a significant amount of this is merely societal pressures - not a lot of women are, as children, expected to go out and play in the dirt....
> Mountain biking is, in essence, an individual sport. This brings up two issues: 1) Most women I know aren't comfortable going solo....
> 2) Many of the women that I have brought into climbing (taking out groups of beginners, watching people get hooked) have a very strong athletic background, but in team sports... athletes (track, volleyball) state that they miss camaraderie with teammates more than they do the sport. This may be a common attitude with men, too? I don't know.
> 
> In regards to getting high schoolers involved? Show that the sport is cool, is open to guys and girls, make it social and a place to make friends. And also keep the attitude that a girl can be both 'pretty' and still mountain bike - because it 'is' high school, after all. (And it's the truth, too - who could possibly look better than a girl who mountain bikes?


This is a brilliant post.

Mtn biking is a solo activity. Most women I know are rather social. But then again, I have to tell the guys I ride with to shut up and ride... so maybe I'm just... focused.

Many women who mtn bike were athletic as young people. Perhaps I'm one of the exceptions. I tried to be athletic, mostly because the more popular kids were, but in truth I was a complete klutz. I was told I needn't bother coming to basketball tryouts as a 7th grader (for obvious reasons). I tried softball, but would get hit in the head rather often, which always concerned the coach. I was a complete disaster (some would argue that nothing has really changed).

The thing that did set me apart was/is tenacity. I refuse to give up, and I refuse to be told I can't do something. I might not do it well, and it might take me longer than you, but I will do it. I began taking ballet at age 18 in hopes of one day being able to walk across a room without running into something... It took a number of years, but I'm not a klutz anymore. 

Perhaps it's that fighter spirit you need to develop in a girl. I know my mom fed me the "you can do anything and be anything" propaganda from the time I was born.

And yes, regarding your final point, I like to know I look good doing whatever it is that I'm doing.

-sunny


----------



## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Not that it is not necessary nor that it matters how it comes about. I just think that you underestimate the complexity that is avoided in a small school enclave and the fortuitous nature of the presence of these girls. This club is THE bright athletic spot in the whole school. In addition, Teresa did not happen in a vacuum but as as consequence of a very determined and delicate titration of pressures extended and mitigated by two very dynamic and enriching mtb racer parents. It has to be done carefully .Cycling (and surfing) is what this family does. One cannot deny that this is a major effect. All the talk in the world that she did this on her own doesn't hold water. As to other girls one of them is a long time next door neighbor who also goes to this school.What do you know? Without these circumstances I doubt there would be girls on the team at all.
> I'd say that these are very special set of pressures not availible to most of us and it is a chicken and egg problem. If we had girls we could get girls but first we need girls who aren't already busy with Soccer, Volleyball, Softball, Basetball, Leadership, the Temple, Sea Scouts,Cross Country. Calvary Chapel has eggs in the nest.


All I am saying is don't throw out my advice just because you find different circumstances with my example.

Oh, and she's a runner now. Why? because her boyfriend is. So much for that dedicated tritration and enriching mtb atmosphere. Seems as if social pressure wins in the end, again.

But what do I know about attracting women to this sport anyway?

Sabine


----------



## mushypeas (Jul 28, 2005)

MKULTRA said:


> Don't be too hard on him. Mushypeas has no choice. He does what we want him to do.


I knew it.

er.....

What do I know?????


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

In my limited experience with women who ride or had enough interest in riding to try it out once or twice (none of whom I know to participate here at MTBR, hence my words on their behalf)...

Most, if not all of them expressed reservations about scarring that may occur in the case of a fall, or even just riding. This topic always comes up in conversation since my own legs are pretty scarred from the 14-or-so-years of weekend warrioring, from falls, scrapes, chainring punctures, bug bites, poison ivy, etc. They explained the opinion that while a certain degree of scarring is not a huge detriment for a guy, it is always a significant detriment for a woman. They expressed the opinion that while the injury itself is no big deal, the scabbing screams low economic class (I'm talking around a term one particular friend used; I guess there's a bit of elitism there), and the eventual scarring detracts from the ability to look elegant in an evening dress.

I don't think it can be presumed that all women will put that much weight in the evening dress, nevetheless it seems to be a pretty valid concern from certain perspectives.

Some of these women chose to continue riding, but much more cautiously than us guys. They would choose to walk most technical sections.

On a separate note...

In my limited experience, there is a high correlation between a woman's continuing interest in riding and the quality of the bike she is on. While it is entirely possible that a strong interest in riding would result in her purchase (or spouse/BF purchase) of a better bike, it is equally possible that a better bike (loaned or purchased) makes the entire difference in their early riding experience. It sets the ratio of pain-to-payoff that is associated with the activity, which of course figures into the judgement of whether this is a worthwhile activity to continue to pursue.


----------



## mushypeas (Jul 28, 2005)

She'd still need a man to fit her thrunge bracket.


----------



## *rt* (Jan 15, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> She'd still need a man to fit her thrunge bracket.


aren't you supposed to be at school?


----------



## sunnyracegirl (Apr 11, 2004)

DtEW said:


> [many women who ride] expressed reservations about scarring that may occur in the case of a fall, or even just riding. .... They explained the opinion that while a certain degree of scarring is not a huge detriment for a guy, it is always a significant detriment for a woman...


OK, I concede your point only because of *a comment a man made to me *about 10 years ago, shortly after I broke my leg playing soccer for our company team. I broke both the bones above the ankle, and had about 8 staples on each side of my lower leg. Once I was back to work on crutches, one of my co-workers, a very kind gentleman, came to express his concern. He stood there, shook his head and said sympathetically, "Guess you'll be wearing dark hose from now on."
I narrowed my eyes and cocked my head, "Why?" I asked. 
Surprised I didn't understand, he said, "Well, to hide the scars."
I smiled and thanked him for his concern.

But I would never have thought of this. And it's telling that it was a man's expectation that I would be concerned about it.

I think most of the girls on this board don't think much about scarring either. But evidently a lot of people do, so your point is probably a good one.

-sunny


----------



## mushypeas (Jul 28, 2005)

There's something sexy about a girl on a saddle... or on horseback....


----------



## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

DtEW said:


> Most, if not all of them expressed reservations about scarring that may occur in the case of a fall, or even just riding. This topic always comes up in conversation since my own legs are pretty scarred from the 14-or-so-years of weekend warrioring, from falls, scrapes, chainring punctures, bug bites, poison ivy, etc. They explained the opinion that while a certain degree of scarring is not a huge detriment for a guy, it is always a significant detriment for a woman. They expressed the opinion that while the injury itself is no big deal, the scabbing screams low economic class (I'm talking around a term one particular friend used; I guess there's a bit of elitism there), and the eventual scarring detracts from the ability to look elegant in an evening dress.


Maybe I am really a man posing as a woman, but scarring, or the possibility of it, has never worried me when riding. Well, that's not 100% true: the truth is that visible scars on my skin don't worry me, but the scarring in my lung from a blood clot that was likely the result of a mtb. accident does bother me, and I have made it a primary goal not to do that again. However, I don't think it will affect how I look in an evening gown.

I do agree with everyone who has brought up the social aspect of getting young girls into the sport. When I was in high school and college I raced xc skiing and xc running and I wouldn't have given up the camaraderie of my teammates for anything. Most of my happiest high school and college memories involve my sports teams, and my elation when my team won the AK state xc ski championships far surpasses my pleasure at any individual ski race wins. I don't think it's a bad thing that HS girls want to do social sports, but I think that because of it the best way to get more HS girls involved in mtb is to make it a HS team sport.


----------



## devinjo (Aug 4, 2005)

This is my first time posting here and I wanted to comment on this thread. I had a boyfriend and now my husband who is into mtb and I had no interest..WHY..because I have always had crappy bikes AND I had no idea what mountain biking was really all about. I went to my first mtb race last year with dh just to keep him company and all I can say is WOW!!! How fun is that? 
My husband took me to a bike shop where I test rode a bunch of bikes and all I can say is what a difference a good bike makes.  I got a Cannondale Jekyll and I LOVE it!I had no idea a bike could be so easy to ride!
I agonize making decisions between what pedals, shoes, componants,tools, etc. My husband thinks it is "silly" that I am learnng to maintain and work on my my bike. (Wasn't laughing so hard last weekend when I was able to fix HIS broken chain! ) 
Before, bike I was a horse trainer/instructor for a career. Got my adrenal rush trying to beat the clock over big jumps .
I am not a girly/girl but not a real tomboy either. I like to dress up but hate to shop.
Scarring on the legs....plenty!!! Just got a chain ring puncture last night! BUT i am FIT, having a blast.... SO WHO CARES!!.And I have fun stories on how I got those scars! 
I think if more woman even knew what mtbing was about there may be more interest in it. 
I find that bike shop personnel(men) can kind of blow us girls off on the biking help because they assume we are not "serious" bikers. And don't offer up advice unless you pull teeth. Listen up,guys!!! 
I wish I could find some women in my neck of the woods to ride with but I just don't see them around!!!! I have my first race next month and came from a place of having no interest in mtbing to a full blown passion for it. All because I didn't know what it was really about!


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I see your point.*



Sabine said:


> All I am saying is don't throw out my advice just because you find different circumstances with my example.
> 
> Oh, and she's a runner now. Why? because her boyfriend is. So much for that dedicated tritration and enriching mtb atmosphere. Seems as if social pressure wins in the end, again.
> 
> ...


The principles are certainly valid. What I am trying to get across to you is that the circumstance was not constructed from a position we and every other of teh 25 clubs in the League now occupy; it just happened near a very ripe nexus.
As to this girls now running? I say, for now. I will bet you a box of Clif/Luna Bars, name your flavor, that she will be riding MTB when the season starts.


----------



## Guest (Aug 26, 2005)

i have to agree with devinjo. 

having a good bike makes all the difference in the world. people that don't know better go out and think they are buying a good/functional MTB when they spend 500 dollars only to get the crap beat out of them and have the bike fall apart. they immediately decide "MTB is not for me". i have taught/introduced two women to MTB (the first was my first fiance in like '94 and the second is my wife). my wife is learning much faster than the previous woman because she has a WAY better bike and i wouldn't have put her on anything less.

i have a friend (single, male 29yrs old, engineer) who i am trying to get into MTB as well. we took him on his first ride last weekend and he loved it. i told him MTB is a good place to meet quality girls so hopefully there will be some out there on the trail!!!!!


----------



## mushypeas (Jul 28, 2005)

I guess I am just used to English women who's only interests are drinking pints, eating chips, and having babies.


----------



## MKULTRA (Aug 24, 2005)

*A sufficient apology, but ...*



mushypeas said:


> I guess I am just used to English women who's only interests are drinking pints, eating chips, and having babies.


You forgot to add the dig about their bad teeth. Stop resisting or we'll have no choice but to up the frequency.

And that tin foil hat is of little help, mushy.


----------



## mushypeas (Jul 28, 2005)

seriously though...

how many women do their own maintenance? And I don't mean nails or hair.


----------



## Hello Kitty (Sep 3, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> And I don't mean nails or hair.


Sheet, mushy, I pay dearly for professionals to perform that maintenance _too_.

As for bikes, other than changing a tire, knowing when and how to lube a chain, and having intermittent success dialing in shifting cables that are either too loose or too tight, I know absolutely nothing about bike maintenance.

In light of my dilemma, I've worked out a very effective barter system to exchange services with a person who does.


----------



## Shannon-UT (Mar 26, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> seriously though...
> 
> how many women do their own maintenance? And I don't mean nails or hair.


When I do bike trips without my husband (yes sometimes he can't go due to school or whatever), I do my own bike maintenance before each ride. But when he's around, he does it because we have worked out a system and have divvy up the duties.

I have lots of hobbies, maybe too many now days, we barely have time to keep our house presentable.


----------



## mushypeas (Jul 28, 2005)

Hello Kitty said:


> In light of my dilemma, I've worked out a very effective barter system to exchange services with a person who does.


fnar fnar

snick snick!


----------



## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> seriously though...
> 
> how many women do their own maintenance? And I don't mean nails or hair.


I do.

Though I'll admit, like most people, there are things above my skill level that I pay someone else to do or ask my husband for help with. I'm not rebuilding my Dorado, but I'll replace brake pads, derailleur cables and hangers, tighten bottom brackets, change out broken parts - shocks, chainguide, whatever. And some things, like setting up suspension sag or bleeding brakes just work better when done as a 2 person job. But I could manage it on my own.

I don't build wheels either. I can true them, but if it needs anything serious, I have it done professionally.


----------



## Scarpa (Aug 16, 2005)

My wife is starting to get into biking, and a lot of what has been said here is mirrored in my experiences introducing it to her.

To start, she is very much the "girly girl" or as she prefers, a princess. Never an athlete, was never taught to ride a bike because it was "too dangerous" (parents words), etc. She does however, love the outdoors in an abstract sense (no bugs please) and absolutely loves any animal on the planet. To that end, I've been leveraging these things in a way to keep her interest up.

Ultimately though, she decided to learn because she wanted to ride with me. Which goes back to the social aspect of it all, it's something I really enjoy and she wants to be a part of it.

There have been two main challenges so far, and both revolve around pain. Primarily, she does not like to "suffer". Hills hold no interest to her and once the heavy breathing _starts_ she is ready to turn back. I've had little luck so far bringing her around. She simply thinks it's unnecessary to work yourself that hard.

The other issue is a fear of falling, and along similar lines, a fear of speed. She does not like downhills at all (talking paved roads here) although she is slowly coming to terms with them and does feel a sort of pride when she gets all the way down a hill without stopping and walking out of fear. I really have no expectation that she'll ever follow me down even an easy singletrack descent. One day she might decide to try it, if not I don't think I can do anything about it.

We still ride at least once a week though, on flat fireroads, and she does enjoy it. Sometimes I think she'll come around and want to push a little harder, sometimes I think it's a lost cause. Either way I'm not going to push her into anything, I'm happy that she has come this far.

So no real revelations here.. just another experience trying to work on a BEFORE and turn her into a hard charging mt biker.


----------



## pedaling pyrate (Nov 30, 2004)

*That kind of logic...*



mushypeas said:


> seriously though...
> 
> how many women do their own maintenance? And I don't mean nails or hair.


...would mean certain people shouldn't be driving cars either.


----------



## AZtortoise (Jan 12, 2004)

mushypenis(why he has had 40 GF)is a troll. Why are people replying to this creep?

Rita


----------



## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

AZtortoise said:


> mushypenis(why he has had 40 GF)is a troll. Why are people replying to this creep?
> 
> Rita


Az, because it's sometimes fun to feed the troll.... well, you see, he has to maintain this 'I'm a jerk status' hobby. If he didn't have people to talk to, who'm could he bug? I think this forum for him is like his last resort, all his previous GF have ditched him as soon as he opened his mouth, so he can type to his heart content here.


----------



## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

mushypeas said:


> I guess I am just used to English women who's only interests are drinking pints, eating chips, and having babies.


Ha! That sounds like a lot of the girls I went to school with... only they were more interested in alcopops than pints ... bleugh 

'Spose I'm the exception then... I do all my bike maintenance on all of our bikes (4 at the moment, growing to 6 soon). I don't give a damn if my nails have grease under them... it washes out in the shower anyway. I don't drink pints (much... real ales only please, and definitely no alcopops), don't eat chips (any more) and don't have any babies (yet). Lemme guess... all the girls you meet are chavettes, right?

- Jen.


----------



## ridewiththegirls (Jul 29, 2004)

*riding breaks nails*



Berkeley Mike said:


> I just spent some time reading the Girly Girl thread and learned why I didn't get much from my initial post about why more girls don't ride when this Forum first started. I have come to realize that, so to speak, you are either on the bus or off the bus. There is not much revelation here about transition, the development of women riders and their processes or insight into getting Miss Teen America to do DH. What we have here is a sample of women who ended up riding mtb, who were tom boys, revel in being mud magnets, raised with brothers or by fathers without sons whether they clean up real good or not, but not those on the edge. I mean that makes sense of course otherwise why would anyone spend time on this forum. And I don't mean this as put down, either, just a bit of a revelation.


There are girls who get it and girls who don't get it. The ones who worry about their nails will probably have to resort to liposuction to get cut abs like mine when they are older like me. If I ever had any weight to lose I would work it off not cut it out. Plastic surgery is for weak people who spend their whole lives trying to be clean. Working out means getting dirty sometimes.


----------



## Joe Dirt (Nov 20, 2005)

*Plastic Surgery?*



ridewiththegirls said:


> There are girls who get it and girls who don't get it. The ones who worry about their nails will probably have to resort to liposuction to get cut abs like mine when they are older like me. If I ever had any weight to lose I would work it off not cut it out. Plastic surgery is for weak people who spend their whole lives trying to be clean. Working out means getting dirty sometimes.


How in the world did this thread turn into a liposuction/plastic surgery conversation?


----------



## mzungo (Sep 14, 2004)

*No your not.*



mushypeas said:


> Probably less than 5% of the posters on this forum are female.
> 
> So I stand by what I have said. From the age of 15 to 36, most of the girls I have dated or known have not had hobbies. Girls have less hobbies than boys. Women have less hobbies than men. Watching soap operas might be considered a hobby by some, but not in my book.
> 
> I know I am right.


Hmm really scarey puting your head up on this thread but...

I dont think women Obsess over there hobby's as much as men..we tend to get very into thing's, often to the detrement of other things in our lives, women seam a little more level headed about there hobby's than us men.

My Gf Dances salsa,shops,wathches telly,is artistic.but if she cant do any one thing she (unlike me) wont have a fit about it...women are often less selfish than men as well,especialy once they become mothers and truly share there lives with another being.

My seventy year old mother has alway's riden horses, when she had to stop she took up painting.

My first wife had lots of hobbies

All the women in my life have had hobbies ...but not all of them had a trumpet.


----------



## Dude (Jan 12, 2004)

*Something that is overlooked also*

I read this post and one important thing that is being over looked are the daily duties that a mom takes on. I don't know too many men that will take on the task of a mother. If the family has young kids mostly it's the mother taking the child/children to birthday parties, play dates, social activities and too their own events.

Men seem to have fundamental difficulties with these task and I would have to say I am one of them. My family knows that if a ride presents it's self and the stars are lined up I would much rather go on the ride. I will "in the best interest of my health" make the correct choice based on the circumstances. Most men will not cancel something with their buddies for a woman but a woman will cancel things with her buddies for a man or her family.

I see that you ladies in general have larger task list then us men and they tend to deal with the smaller of details. I think a lot of synergy needs to be driven into the relationship and task along with interest need to be divided so that when it comes time to ride everyone has time.

Life is moving much faster for kids these days. They don't seem to have time to be kids. With all the pressure to be on top, the homework load, the social pressure, keeping up with the Jones and the lack of accountability it just makes it very difficult for a parent or young person to add this to their pile of things to do.

Kids are no longer accountable for their time. You either have a desire to learn and seek knowledge or someone with desire takes the time to peak your interest. As a working parent I find it very hard and time consuming to make the time to walk my kids thru all their sports or to help create an interest. We keep our kids active and moving rather than sitting and rotting but this is not the case for most.

I find that most women like things "gym,cardio kickboxing,yoga,spin, etc" because of it's set location and convenience. It's a thing that is more time manageable. If one class is missed for one reason or the other they have another chance to "catch" another class.

Riding for a new person is time consuming, a lot of detail and preparation and has a lot of uncertainty. With all the distractions that life offers today it's just really easier for the inexperienced to find something else to do.

-Dude


----------



## hardtail05 (Oct 11, 2005)

*something positive*

After facing my reluctance to chime in, I decided to add my view because I have a seven-year-old niece who I am very proud of. Her parents are both cyclists so they came to watch a road race I did this summer (Mt Evans Hillclimb). After watching this, she told her mother that she wanted a road bike (already has a kid's MTB) and that she wants to race the Mount Evans race. She will have to wait till she's ten years old, but if she actually does it, that would be so awesome. Her older brother is 9 years old and she kicks his butt most of the time. Anyway, my point is that support from parents/relatives might make all the difference. With sedentary parents, my niece would never have been inspired the way she has been. And, she was VERY inspired by the competition and scenery. She reminded me of myself at her age and how I fell in love with the outdoors by looking up at the walls of El Capitan in Yosemite or how watching the Coors Classic in San Francisco inspired me to race bikes. I think if you can hook someone at that age, they are inspired for life. One problem, though, is that those "kid's" bikes weigh about twice what mine does. Maybe having lighter bikes could get girls involved with less frustration.? My nephew's bike probably weighs more than a full-on downhill bike. The frame feels like it's made from depleted uranium&#8230;


----------



## IttyBittyBetty (Aug 11, 2005)

*You hang with the wrong women*



mushypeas said:


> Probably less than 5% of the posters on this forum are female.
> 
> So I stand by what I have said. From the age of 15 to 36, most of the girls I have dated or known have not had hobbies. Girls have less hobbies than boys. Women have less hobbies than men. Watching soap operas might be considered a hobby by some, but not in my book.
> 
> I know I am right.


With two thirds of both the male and female population overweight in this country, it would seem to me that many Americans of both genders suffer from a lack of any hobby other than sitting in front of the TV. This is sadly becoming true of children too. Actually most women I know have hobbies, although some of those hobbies don't interest me and would not interest many of the female posters on mtbr. While clothes, shopping, soap operas (actually any TV) and makeup may not be your cup of tea or mine, neither are video games and stupid professional sports on TV (no better than soap operas in my view, but that's just my personal opinion and it's a free country). Most women I know (including those who do not passionately mountain bike) are into staying fit, cooking, yoga and reading. These may not be interests that you find enjoyable, but they are hobbies. If you would actually like to MEET women who have similar hobbies to yours, you might want to back off on the "I'm Right" righteousness.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Stupid professional sports on TV,no better than soap operas.*

That is brilliant!. I recall reading an article about rock climbers. A guy called a friend to go out and climb. Friend said that he was doing something. "What," said climber? "I'm going to watch a football game, a play-off." Climber responded, "that's not doing anything!"
My wife shops but I think she is wonderful at it. I don't have the patience for it but how the hell do you get stuff into your house to eat and use otherwise. When I go it is just for moral support with drudgery. For major purchases I ask my wife to do all the research and narrow things down. She is great at this. I guess I could do it, but why? Shopping is a skill. So I guess it can be a hobby.


----------



## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

It just floors me, the attitudes some guys still carry around. Evolution hasn't affected the entire human race, I suppose.

My hobbies are MY hobbies. It wasn't a guy that got me into mtb, it was my own fascination with a durable bike that could hold up to dirt trails. Before mtb, I was a casual runner, then I joined a hiking club. I wanted to exercise outdoors, plain and simple. 

How to spot the "before" women? I dunno, same way you spot the "before" guys. If they're not afraid of sweat and hard work, they're that much more likely to enjoy biking.

Come to think of it, as a teen, anytime I wanted to join in a male-dominated group, I was ignored. I'd go into the local shop and was dismissed as a newbie who'd never be able to keep up with the group rides or tackle the technical (ha) trails. So I taught myself.

It's a catch-22. Guys want more women in the sport but treat us like aliens at a young age. Maybe if I did my nails, hair, makeup and starved myself super-skinny the guys would've been fighting each other to teach me?


----------



## Bikehigh (Jan 14, 2004)

IttyBittyBetty said:


> With two thirds of both the male and female population overweight in this country, it would seem to me that many Americans of both genders suffer from a lack of any hobby other than sitting in front of the TV.


You hit the nail on the head with that one. I think the reason more women don't ride is because of the rugged nature of it. But as a single guy, I have to say that there are a lot of women out there who love being outdoors, and are just waiting for a guy to do it with. The woman I'm with currently is one of them. She's not the kind of woman who's comfortable with going out in the woods by herself. I'm not sure if her fears are rational, but I can understand them. Since meeting me, she has not once turned down an opportunity to hit the trails. We were out in sub-freezing temps last Sunday morning, and she was loving it! I'm not saying that all women are dependent on men to get them out there, because when I take my dog to the park, I see a whole lot more women out there running and walking than men. I've often been on walks and hikes with groups of two or three, sometimes more, women, and I'll be the only guy. Where the hell are all these women's men? Farting around with their cars, or watching some game on TV? From my experience, women love "doing" things a lot more than men do, and they sure do love the outdoors. I just think that mountain biking is one of those things that's outside the comfort zone for a lot of women, and there's not a whole lot you're gonna do about it. I think it also takes a certain aggressive nature it takes to be a mountain biker, and on a percentage basis, women are not as aggresive as men are. I think if you want to find those women who might be the "befores", you might want to look for those that are

Christine, you're an exception, and surely you know this. You should be proud of the fact that you got yourself into something you love like mountain biking. But coming down on us guys for observing what's there to be observed, isn't serving any useful purpose. We're not saying what we're saying to put women down. We're saying what we're saying because of what we've experienced in life. I do think you have a good point regarding girls being the way they are because of conditioning. But it's not just guys doing the conditioning though, it's mothers and sisters and aunts and friends too. And it's not just the girls who are conditioned, us guys are too. I've got three nieces, all very athletic, run cross country, swimming, soccer, etc. But my god, despite being so athletic and competetive, they are all such extreme girly girls I could never picture them on a mountain bike. I should see if I can get them out on the trails some day.


----------



## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

Well, it's true that female newbies fall between a rock and a hard place- the guys who are more hardcore into it, and the women who aren't into it at all. The guys think you're a wimp and the women think you're a freak! 

I tried to liken the sport to horseback riding with my sister- she grew up with a horse obsession (like many girls.) I told her, "MTB is like horseback riding, except that it takes effort and skill."  

Throwing down the gauntlet like that *should* have worked, but the reason I never got into horseback riding more was b/c she was so great at it and so into it. I think we keep out of each other's hobbies b/c we might get a little competitive. 

Haven't given up on her, though- she's got a new hybrid bike and loved her first ride on it.... she just hasn't been doing much riding since then. She's a bit of a control freak and mtb isn't a good sport for control freaks. Road riding is more their kind of thing.


----------



## dinogrl (Jun 21, 2005)

*NoNoNo...*

Smarter, more interesting girls are all LESBIANS, remember?

Although it seems from reading these MTBR threads that none of the rational, funny, down-to-earth guys seem to have the problem of meeting only swarthy lady-lovin' man-haters...


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*It is interesting to me that*

the women in this forum don't see themselves as the exception.


----------



## Crockpot2001 (Nov 2, 2004)

CycleMainiac said:


> gee, do you have any idea why no girls will STAY your girl friend?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Crockpot2001 (Nov 2, 2004)

*From a racing perspective*

I don't think this will change the direction of this thread much but maybe it's a different perspective or a peek into someone else's lives, racer's lives.

My wife and I both race. We met after we both had been racing for some time. Both are cat II's. 4 years ago we were racing every chance we had during the season. Sometimes we would get flyers in the mail announcing a race in some border state. Often the race payed out 5x's or more for the men's cat II field than the women's open. The men's races were always at least twice as far. This brought my wife to tears and caused lots of tension between us. See, I want her to have races that bring her to the level of the elite women so that she can compete when the time comes but I know the truth is that promoters have to weigh their losses when they do their budget. A field of 75 guys can pay for itself. I have been part of our state's racing organization for a few years now and I know that not one women's race field has been profitable but for one major race that happens and one race that imposes a VERY strong limit on payout in the case of small fields and it HAS been used several years. This is where I go back to agreeing with my wife. Who's gonna drive 250 miles to race a 25 -30 minute crit? Oh, I know you're saying "it's about the love of sport" but we all aspire for the bigger purses and the ability to buy more than a .99 burrito at the Bell.

Well, the rubber met the road this last summer. I promoted a crit race to bring nutritional awareness to the community I went to school in (I am a registered dietitian, a man in the 3-5 % minorety in my field). I worked my tail off contacting women's teams all over the midwest. Notthing special was done to attract men's teams. The women's payout was double anything any of the regional crits had offered and the race was 60 minutes. PLUS we offered FREE hosting/lodging for ALL women. Guess what. We had 6 women. 
Why did it fail? Here's what both my wife and I came up with. Girls just don't grow up around bikes to the extent of boys. This makes reintroduction to cycling slow and sometimes painful. That is a general comment about the status of women's racing but what we did varify was that the women that DID know about the race did not tell anyone else about it. There were several ladies there that know people that race all over the place but they did not network . Boys seem to do a pretty good job in that department. Women's teams are typically smaller and the effect of a larger team or network is exponential. If women called each other and networked for every race, sure it would be a pain in the but but racing fields would grow and so would purses. We all want to see more women racing and riding.

BTW - my wife just started racing BMX! No purse, probably won't travel much to do it, get to play with lots of great kids.


----------



## redrott (Jan 21, 2004)

A few thoughts on this thread. 

First, I think that the "before" must come at a really early age. Self image is largely created before one reaches 5yo. Unfortunately much of the children's literature out there (although this has improved a lot in recent yrs) shows little boys "doing things" and little girls being princesses and such. Wouldn't it be great if 3-5yo girls could read books with characters that were girls that rode bikes, played sports, built things, etc? 

As far as the hobby thing, I must say that I have ?ed this as well. OK - mushypeas or whatever his name is has ZERO tact and appears to just want to start things but could he be partially right? I defintely think that MORE men than women have hobbies. This does not mean that NO women have hobbies. BTW, I do consider crafts to be hobbies but have trouble with shopping and make-up being described as ahobbies. I guess I define hobbies as things that are "active" vs "passive". Active does not have to be in the athletic sense, however. For example crafts, such as scrapbooking, are "active" while watching movies on TV is "passive".


----------



## Mudflaps (Sep 7, 2005)

sunnyracegirl said:


> This is a brilliant post.
> 
> Mtn biking is a solo activity. Most women I know are rather social. But then again, I have to tell the guys I ride with to shut up and ride... so maybe I'm just... focused.
> 
> ...


 Damn, you're hot! OK I don't know you, but I happen to think that women that ride are the tops. Ride On!
In support of women riding/discovering the outdoors. Where is there a better connection to the world we inhabit?


----------

