# 300lbs guys on a air shock??



## uk ton (Dec 1, 2007)

hi guys, looking for a bit of advice.

any of you 300lbs guys run air shocks.
i am thinking about buying a rp23 for my heckler.
what do you think.


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## madcatmini (Aug 3, 2008)

I'd be interested in hearing the answer to this too. I'm looking at an air pike and a RP 23 for my iggy. I'm 260 with gear.


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## Cycle64 (Nov 10, 2004)

275 lbs without gear.

El Rey with a WB Fluid110 and Fox RP23 fort he past 8 months. I had no issues to date besides one tiny o-ring leak on the fork. WB sent out a few and no issues since. I never really used the pro-pedal option as I'm a set it and forget it style of rider. So I just installed a 08 Pushed Float R and very happy with the results.


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## Octane (Mar 16, 2004)

250lbs with gear

I've been riding air shocks for 2+ years (DHX 5.0 Air), and recently switched to a coil shock (DHX 5.0 Coil). All I have to say; I can't believe I waited this long to make the switch to better pedaling performance and a more controled rear suspension.

I believe that there is no place for air shocks for riders over 200lbs.

-B


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## big_mountain_biker (Jul 10, 2007)

Coil is definitely the way to go for heavy riders. One of the best air shocks for heavier riders is the Manitou ISX-6, I had one for a while and it was good because with a 2.5:1 leverage ratio bike I didn't need to run it anywhere near the maximum pressure for 30% sag with me at 340 lbs, I believe I ran it at around 200psi (max pressure was 300psi) . The Fox rp23 is supposed to be good as well although I don't have any personal experience with it.

The problem with the Manitou was that with 200psi in there I could never get full travel and maintain a decent amount of sag. If I set it up for 30% sag I would not use more than 50% of the travel. I got new frame with a DHX 5.0 coil, threw an 800 lbs coil on there and I realized what having rear suspension is supposed to feel like, I run about 35% sag and get full travel off of drops to flat and about 85% travel during a typical trail ride.


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## beanfink (Nov 22, 2006)

I'd be curious to hear what 300lb clydes have to say about air shocks on bikes with really low leverage ratios (like 2:1). 

I'm thinking about getting a Ventana El Capitan 29er, but only if I can run an air shock and tubeless tires.

Any superclydes on a 2:1 bike with an air shock?

EDIT: Holy Crap, now I'm thinking about getting a DW-Link Turner Sultan. Sweet!


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

I have heard an arse full about how coil shocks are the way to go for big guys. Funny thing is that I couldn't get a coil spring beefy enough to even get me to 30% sag using a Fox Vanilla coil on my previous bike. I had the heaviest spring available (#1050x160) and it put me at close to 40% sag. I switched to a Manitou Swinger 4-Way Air and could run it at 25% sag on the same bike without going over the max psi (300psi was max and I ran about 280psi). I weighed about 270-280lbs (just me, not including clothes, camelback, tools, tubes, etc.) during that time.

Now I run a Manitou Swinger 3-Way Air on my Reign and only need to run about 190psi to get 30% sag. I like 30% sag on this bike as I still don't quite bottom it out. I have weighed as much as 300lbs with this bike and have never needed more than 210psi in the shock. I'm in the low 260's now and run at 190psi.

I suspect I could find a coil shock to work on my Reign, but don't feel like playing musical springs when I can just air up and ride. 

If coil works good for you that's fine, but it's entirely possible that an air shock could work very well for the 'Supers' among us depending on the bike and it's leverage ratio and suspension rate and how a particular air shock is designed and set up.

To know if a particular air shock would work well with a particular bike, you would really need to speak with someone that knows the various shocks and is familiar with the suspension design of your particular bike to get the best advice on what would work well and what may not. Otherwise, you're just taking a shot in the dark.

JMHO/YMMV.


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## Cycle64 (Nov 10, 2004)

07 El Rey and the original RP23 worked fine. As stated above, I just replaced the RP23 with a Pushed Float R and it works great. 230PSi for proper sag. Talk with the guys at Push Industries, very helpful!

As jeffj mention, I have trouble with spring rates also but it was on a fork. Went air and never had an issue since.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

good thread :thumbsup:


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## bridog (Sep 20, 2006)

*Big believer in air for big guy*

It definitely can work, but you have to do your homework. I have several bikes, all of which are running air. I have a Giant Glory with the Manitou ISX-6 evolver - that is a sweet piece of hardware, and I'm not a huge fan of Manitou stuff in general. I am able to set it up to truly use the full stroke of the bike's travel, tune in the amount of sag I want, the "linear-ness" or progressivity of the rear end, the comp/rebound damping, etc. I can't say enough good and so far it has taken all I can throw at it (though I admittedly don't ride this bike as much as my trailbike...)

Which is a Niner RIP9 (low leverage ratio - I believe it is 2:1) with an RP23. I have had good results with this shock/bike, but honestly was having a hard time setting it up to use full travel without getting too much sag or too slow damping. So I upgraded to a High Volume air sleeve from Fox (simply inrcreases the volume of air in the spring). This literally was a 15 minute install job and makes a ton of difference. In a nutshell, it makes the RP23 more linear, so it is better able to use the full stroke of travel, particularly the last 25%.

I have spoken with the guys at Fox at great length and have been assured that the RP23 is basically built just as tough as the DHX-Air. The DHX-A is a cool shock, but on many bikes, it is just too linear and the bike will not ride great - I have heard it described as "wallowing" and that sounds about right.

I agree that coil springs are tough to find in the real heavy/stiff sizes for big guys. I have a 700 or 750 Fox spring that I jammed onto the Marz shock that came stock on my Glory, but it doesn't hold a candle to the Evolver I am now running.

I also run air forks - I have a Totem Solo Air on the Glory - which has been a great fork for me thus far. I knew right away that's what I wanted on that bike.

On the RIP9, I have tried several forks. The Maverick DUC32 is a cool fork, but is very tough to set up to work right for guys that are REAL big (I am almost 300 lbs). It had annoying top out clunk and was torsionally flimsy, so I swapped it for a White Bros Fluid F135, custom built with the heavier/booster spring setup. I still run nearly 50 psi of air in it and it rides great. I have blown through 2 sets of seals in it though, so I can't confidently say it holds up to big guys.

My 250 lb buddy just got a Manitou Minute 29er with 120 mm of travel and 20 mm thru-axle. It seems great so far - stiffer torsionally than the WB F135, but smoother/more plush. Time will tell how it holds up.

I have also ridden a REBA 29er - which can set up fine, but is a noodle torsionally. I have a Fox F29 100 mm that I have a little time on, and it is very stiff torsionally for a QR fork, and easy to set up again.

My old bike was a 4" travel Kona with a Fox Float RL on it and a Rock Shox Duke SL up front - both of those worked sweet at my weight as well.

My best advice is do your homework up front, find a frame with low leverage ratio, find a shock/fork combo that will work out well and gives incredible adjustability.


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## commando850 (Aug 30, 2008)

I'm about 265 with gear. I've got an '08 Heckler that I'm running a float R on at 25% sag @approx 230 psi. It'll bottom out on a three foot drop, but I really like the way it handles singletrack stuff.. I was thinking about a DHX 5.0 with a 400/500 lb. coil, but I've been told that'll be overkill.... I'm happy for now.


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## BIGHaroHucker (Sep 9, 2008)

I tried out a Kona with an air shock and their new magic link during a demo day at Blackrock, Oregon. Lets just say that they MAXED it out on pressure, and I bottomed the shock HARD on 1' jumps. I weigh about 290-300 and am 6'9".

I ride a middle of the line, Coilover shock (7" rear travel) and it does GREAT. I can only imagine what a quality coil over shock would give you for performance. There is no question, air shocks are not meant for people over 200lbs.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

BIGHaroHucker said:


> I tried out a Kona with an air shock and their new magic link during a demo day at Blackrock, Oregon. Lets just say that they MAXED it out on pressure, and I bottomed the shock HARD on 1' jumps. I weigh about 290-300 and am 6'9".
> 
> I ride a middle of the line, Coilover shock (7" rear travel) and it does GREAT. I can only imagine what a quality coil over shock would give you for performance. There is no question, air shocks are not meant for people over 200lbs.


Flat out wrong.


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## dusthuffer (Nov 30, 2006)

Air shock is fine. Especially an RP23 it will be great. Plus think of the weight you'll save vs a coil shock.


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## BIGHaroHucker (Sep 9, 2008)

jeffj said:


> Flat out wrong.


Why dont you back up your comment with some info, or at least reference to what part is wrong. There is NOTHING wrong about anything I said, because I physically, first hand did everything stated, and KNOW that it is truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me god.

Please expand on this commentary from the peanut gallery.


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## BIGHaroHucker (Sep 9, 2008)

dusthuffer said:


> Air shock is fine. Especially an RP23 it will be great. Plus think of the weight you'll save vs a coil shock.


When you are a 300lb rider, are you really worried about that extra 2 pounds. I just dont think that the weight is an issue, because god only knows how many calories one of us 300lb'ers could burn and lose, in order to have the lightest ride possible. Most of the weight is in our bodies. I would understand if it was a couple pounds of rotational weight, because that adds up very quick with extra effort, but the stationary weight, I feel, isn't as important as the shock holding up.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

BIGHaroHucker said:


> Why dont you back up your comment with some info, or at least reference to what part is wrong. There is NOTHING wrong about anything I said, because I physically, first hand did everything stated, and KNOW that it is truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me god.
> 
> Please expand on this commentary from the peanut gallery.


If you had read my thread a few posts above yours, you wouldn't have to request that I back up my comment.

I have owned two different bike with air shocks while I have weighed up to 300lbs.

The first originally came with a Fox Vanilla coil shock. I ordered the heaviest spring (#1050) that Fox made for it and with the preload cranked down all the way, I could still only get about 40% sag at best. I replaced it with a Manitou Swinger 4-Way Air and could get 25% sag at 280psi and it rode more plush than the coil ever did.

Before I put the shock on, I had the shop I ordered it from call the tech at Manitou and ask them if they had any reservations about someone of my size riding an air shock. They said I would be fine so long as I didn't exceed the max pressure of 300psi.

Why did I decide to try the air shock in the first place?

I had a chance to demo a Giant VT1 for a week. That bike was equipped with a Manitou air shock and I loved the way it rode with only 240psi (well under the max pressure).

So I actually owned and rode a bike that I rode for years with a coil shock with the heaviest spring made for it and for three more years with an air shock all while weighing from 270 to 300lbs.

Now, I have had another bike (for the past two years) with another air shock that has a max pressure of 300psi and have never needed to put more than 210psi into it to get 25% sag.

I also ride an air/coil fork that has a max recommended pressure of 65psi. I run it from 25-35psi. Again, well under the max recommended air pressure.

You, on the other hand, stated you (demo) rode an air shock on one bike and then a coil shock on another and offer only that as proof that an air shock was insufficient for riders over 200lbs. Apples to oranges if you didn't try both on the same bike.

And you have the gall to call me the "peanut gallery"? :lol:


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## BIGHaroHucker (Sep 9, 2008)

And you still say you like the feel of the air shock more than the coilover? That would have to be a first for me. I have talked to many, many people, racers, mechanics, and friends, even the lighter guys prefer the feel of a coilover shock. Now, you are correct that I dont have the experience of different shocks on the same bike, but I can say that everyone I have talked to prefers the coilover, and is more than willing to pay the price with an extra couple pounds. I guess on a heckler, where it is designed for XC/AM, the air shock would probably meet the demands of a large rider, but I would rather be safe than sorry, and coilover is the only way to go in that situation. I am a DH/FR rider though. My shock takes a beating. Would I EVER take the chance with a air shock on a 4 foot drop or a 10 foot table, HECK NO. I have always been a advocate to overbuilding my equipment.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

I liked the feel of an air shock in that situation rather than a coil shock with 40% sag at max preload (using the heaviest spring available).

I like the feel of the air shock on my current bike, but would still not be opposed to trying a coil shock on it and may do that if I find one that will hold me for certain.

Speaking of Hecklers, I had a Santa Cruz rep tell me (at Helen's in Santa Monica) that a Heckler was not built to handle a person of my size (slightly under 250lbs at that time). This was several years ago so that may not be the case now, but I haven't seen it beefed up much since then. Still doesn't sound right, but I took him at his word...

I have a friend that rides a Kona Stinky that weighs about 290lbs. He has a DHX air shock for local riding and usually puts a coil on for riding at Mammoth.

My son weighs 'only ' 185, but only puts 150-160psi in his air shock and puts it through a decent enough workout with no problems.



















So, my point is that while an air shock may not be perfect for all big riders (well over 200lbs and even up around 300lbs) on all bikes, they can certainly work very well in many applications. And in some cases, they may work better for large riders than a coil will. I'm sure there are also cases where a coil will be the better choice. Sometimes it will come down to rider preference.

I just had issue with the 'absolute' tone of your original post.

Cheers.


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*You are wrong on so many levels....*



BIGHaroHucker said:


> When you are a 300lb rider, are you really worried about that extra 2 pounds. I just dont think that the weight is an issue, because god only knows how many calories one of us 300lb'ers could burn and lose, in order to have the lightest ride possible. Most of the weight is in our bodies. I would understand if it was a couple pounds of rotational weight, because that adds up very quick with extra effort, but the stationary weight, I feel, isn't as important as the shock holding up.


Air shocks function just fine. Personally, I prefer my air shock (singlespeed) over my coil (gear FS).

Need proof that air shocks hold up just fine to 300 pounds? Cars with adjustable suspension settings run air shocks.

You're letting your personal prefence bias your advice.

Run what you like but don't spout incorrect information and not expect to be called on it.


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## Team Fubar Rider (Sep 3, 2003)

I've been running an RP3 on my Cinco for about 2 years. I am 6' and was up to 275 (now about 245) and had NO issues with the shock. (I am breaking TWO rules...a Ti FS bike AND an air shock...GASP!)

I would HIGHLY recommend getting an air shock PUSH'ed for your weight and have them add the high volume air canister at the same time. With a bigger air canister, it gives the shock a more linear feel at the higher pressures clydes require. I did mine and it really is perfect now. I might not keep up with my itty, bitty, skinny friends when I ride uphill, but when we point it down, they better watch out!


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## BIGHaroHucker (Sep 9, 2008)

I apologize if I gave incorrect info, but I was not the only one with that perspective. I just gave my experience, and that was that the air shocks did not hold the weight, bottom line. I know my origonal post had a definite tone, and I am sorry for that, but I just get frustrated when people give one word responses, and say "your wrong", when the info I gave was personal experience. The Kona people were there on the shuttle day, and pumped the shock to the max, and I still got 40% sag and bottomed out all the time. Now I begin to think that it is very much dependent on the suspension design, and how "active" it is. Thank you for correcting me, but I still think I will be sticking with the coilover, Just personal preference from here on out.


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## Squatch_ (Jun 7, 2006)

The final word: it depends on bike design and the interaction with the shock. Specifically, it has to do with the leverage ratio, first and foremost, and what range the shocks are designed for.

BHH, "active" has nothing to do with anything here. It's not so much that you're wrong, it's just that you have no idea what you're talking about. If you knew how shocks were designed and how linkages were designed, you'd see that air shocks can work very well in low-ratio designs for heavy guys (and can also flat-out suck for lighter riders).


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## BIGHaroHucker (Sep 9, 2008)

Squatch_ said:


> The final word: it depends on bike design and the interaction with the shock. Specifically, it has to do with the leverage ratio, first and foremost, and what range the shocks are designed for.
> 
> BHH, "active" has nothing to do with anything here. It's not so much that you're wrong, it's just that you have no idea what you're talking about. If you knew how shocks were designed and how linkages were designed, you'd see that air shocks can work very well in low-ratio designs for heavy guys (and can also flat-out suck for lighter riders).


Well thank you for correcting me. I dont have any idea what I am talking about, and am glad we have people like you to correct me. However you gave no valuable info to the origonal post, except to flame me. I just gave my experience and opinion. Thats it. You are right that it has to do with the leverage ratio, which also has a corillation to the "activity" of the suspension design. On the heckler the ratio is fairly direct, in the way the shock and pivot mounts, and most single pivots have a fairly direct ratio, and while these are more active than a hard tail, they are less active than a FSR, or Horse-Link style suspension.

I dont want to get flamed here, I had just got done apologizing for being wrong, when you come in here and tell me I have no idea what I am talking about. Settle down. Aren't we all friends? I would like to think so.


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## Squatch_ (Jun 7, 2006)

BIGHaroHucker said:


> Well thank you for correcting me. I dont have any idea what I am talking about, and am glad we have people like you to correct me. However you gave no valuable info to the origonal post, except to flame me. I just gave my experience and opinion. Thats it. You are right that it has to do with the leverage ratio, which also has a corillation to the "activity" of the suspension design. On the heckler the ratio is fairly direct, in the way the shock and pivot mounts, and most single pivots have a *fairly direct ratio*, and while these are more active than a hard tail, they are less active than a FSR, or Horse-Link style suspension.
> 
> I dont want to get flamed here, I had just got done apologizing for being wrong, when you come in here and tell me I have no idea what I am talking about. Settle down. Aren't we all friends? I would like to think so.


I am most definitely not your friend. And, ugh, read my post. I most definitely did put some valuable information there. Don't blame me if you're too dense to read it.

It's one thing to apologize for being wrong, but after you do, you keep spewing misinformation. Why must you insist on having the final word on something you clearly know very little about? Do you even know what the words you say actually mean? I bolded the worst offender in the above quote.

Just to make it very simple: the leverage ratio is the motion of the wheel compared to the motion of the shock.* On many bikes the travel length of the wheel will be somewhere between 2 and 3 times the travel length of the bike. If you recall the "simple machines" day from 6th grade science class, the location of the fulcrum (this is akin to the pivot on a SP bike) will influence how the mechanical advantage plays out. On a bike with a high ratio (let's say 3:1), a 200 lb. person sitting on the bike must be counteracted by 600 pounds of "support" by the shock. If it is a 6" travel bike, then the shock will only have 2" of compression (the 3:1 ratio again). Now assume it's a bike with a 2:1 ratio. The shock will have 50% less loading, although the trade-off is that you need a shock with longer stroke travel (3" vs 2") to get the same overall bike travel.

For air shocks, there is a certain psi range that the shock functions most effectively at. It's different for each shock, and made more complicated by the fact that an air shock has a progressive spring rate (if the air is compressed to half the volume of original, the spring rate effectively doubles). For you, if you were riding a DHX air, you'd need to be on a bike with a very low ratio--maybe 1.5:1. Otherwise you'd need to set the psi past the preferred limits. You can get away with a higher ratio on a shock like the RP3, but it would still be a fairly low ratio (under 2.5:1).

*It gets more complicated, but I won't get into that here.


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## PCinSC (Oct 25, 2005)

The original poster seems to be MIA, but I'll put my $0.02 in anyway.

Some suspension designs have too high a leverage ratio for a 300lb+ rider to use an air shock. I'm at 280lbs plus gear and I max out the DHX Air on my Enduro, which has a fairly low ratio of 2.4:1. Most longer travel (5"+) bikes have ratios that are higher. I've ridden some air-sprung full-suspension bikes that worked fine at my weight: Titus Supermoto, Titus El Guapo, Titus Racer X, Pivot 429. But I demo'd a Giant Reign XO and the shop guys maxed out the air chamber and I was still getting too much sag.

BTW, this isn't just an issue with air shocks. If a rider is too heavy for a given bike due a high leverage ratio a coil shock may not work either because a coil springs may not be available in the proper weight rating. I was right on the edge with my 5" travel Turner RFX, running a 750lb spring which was the biggest that I could for that shock size.


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## BIGHaroHucker (Sep 9, 2008)

Squatch_ said:


> I am most definitely not your friend. And, ugh, read my post. I most definitely did put some valuable information there. Don't blame me if you're too dense to read it.
> 
> It's one thing to apologize for being wrong, but after you do, you keep spewing misinformation. Why must you insist on having the final word on something you clearly know very little about? Do you even know what the words you say actually mean? I bolded the worst offender in the above quote.
> 
> Thank you for helping to teach me. I am SO GLAD WE ARE NOT FRIENDS. I dont talk to my dog the way you talk to me. I hope that you aren't the same jerk in person that you are on the site. That may end up causing you a few lost teeth. I just would appreciate some respect. I feel bad for you, that you would not be more respectful for another human being. You are at a loss to not have me as a friend. I am the type of person who would easily go out of my way, for a friend, or even a stranger. Without getting into ANY of the bike stuff, I just think you should understand that you are talking to another person, who you "should" have a little more respect for.


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## beanfink (Nov 22, 2006)

There are certainly a lot of situations in which air shocks are inappropriate for Clydesdales:

1.) High leverage ratio frames (can't achieve proper sag at maximum pressure)
2.) Small air volume (resistance ramps too quickly; can't achieve full travel)
3.) Highly progressive shock rate (again, can't use full travel)
4.) Crappy air shock; seals leak (remember when this affected everybody?)

However, there are also situations when a coilover shock is inappropriate.

1.) Linear shock curve on the frame + linear coil spring = shock blows through travel too easily
2.) Appropriately rated coil is unavailable (this is also a big problem with coil forks)


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## Octane (Mar 16, 2004)

beanfink said:


> There are certainly a lot of situations in which air shocks are inappropriate for Clydesdales:...


You summed it up perfectly.

-B


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## Codad 4 (Apr 17, 2007)

Great thread full of opinions, fact or bias and flames...

But on the topic while most of you guys are looking at this thread...

250 ish lbs, 2:1 ratio frame, I’ve got an rp23 on the way; what’s the high volume can worth to me?
I haven't actually been on the shock yet, so I don't know if I will like it as is over my little Vanilla it’s replacing. But is the HV can something I should really really try aspa?

thanks guys and gals


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

There are so many variables that simply stating that you have a 2:1 leverage ratio is not enough info. It could be a rising rate or falling rate or somewhere in between the extremes of those. Consult someone knowledgeable about your frame and it's specific characteristics to get the best answer and advice.


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## Codad 4 (Apr 17, 2007)

single pivot, rising the first .5" of a 2" stroke (so first 1/4), falling for the last 1.5" 

and i lied its a 2.5 to 1 ratio. but ill ask around anyways. thanks

<<< oh and its a black frame right there see it haha.


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## haaki (Sep 15, 2008)

*and let's see ( rough sums, guestimations)*



Octane said:


> You summed it up perfectly.
> 
> -B


rider weight 250

Coil Weight - say 2.5 lbs

shock to rider weight .01

rider weight 250

Air Shock Weight 1.5 lbs

shock to rider 
.oo6

so to save 4/1000 you sacrifice superior performance

Clydes (and I am one) always compare what the weight difference to you.

rarely is the cost of weight savings in performance, price and reliability worth it

be heavy, be happy

& say no to ti spindles


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## Paul1977 (Aug 9, 2007)

Im 300lbs and ride a Haro Xeon. It has a Rockshox Pearl 3.3 that can take up to 300psi. To get the recommended sag it needs 115 psi for me.

To make it super plush for dh runs I run it at 105psi to get full travel out of it.


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