# Permanent insomnia



## moab63 (Dec 29, 2003)

Has nothing to do with the virus or anything like that. Has always been an issue, very light sleep anything wakes me up then I can't go back to sleep. At least 20-30' at night before I doze off.

I tried over the counter stuff, all I get is dizzy. Any natural or prescription stuff. I never tired enough to fall sleep, even riding 20+hrs per week and work, actually makes it worst.:skep:


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

This has been a lifelong issue for me as well.

I'm sure you've read the usual, no caffeine after a certain point in the day, no TV/computer so many hours before bed, no alcohol as a sleep aid, etc...

Now with that out of the way - I've tried OTC sleep aids like Advil PM and others with Diphenhydramine (active ingredient in benadryl) and while it works, I don't like the foggy feeling the next morning. Look into valerian root (I like it as a tea before bed in winter) and melatonin (I prefer low dosage taken sub-lingual). Lately I've been very pleased with the results of Ashwagandha herb made as a tincture. CBD also produces some of the best sleep I've had in years. You'll just have to experiment with what works best for you particularly.

ETA: I considered Ambien and Xanax at one point out of desperation, but as long as these others are working for me I don't see the point of a prescription med.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

I dealt with prolonged severe insomnia at times and one thing which helped me is not trying to go to sleep and keep myself busy until I am tiered. 
If I now wake up during the night I listen to podcasts until I fall asleep.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

TheBaldBlur said:


> melatonin (I prefer low dosage taken sub-lingual).


This works. 0.75-1.5 grams max, more than that can have the opposite affect. I use NOW brand with b6 and peppermint.

No caffeine, at all, ever.
No alcohol

Meditate. Write down what's bothering you, on your mind, or stressing you before you go sleep. This may sound very simple but also works.

Don't eat for hours before you go to sleep. No screen time/blue light before you go to sleep. Get blocking glasses if you can't avoid that. Make sure your bedroom is 100% void of light, also very important. Also the cooler the temp the deeper you'll sleep.

You may be mineral deficient, especially zink, magnesium, and calcium. Try a multimineral supplement for a bit, can't hurt. I like sleepy time tea by traditional medicinals. It contains valerian root which was mentioned.

If your using supplements now pay attention if they're adding to the problem. As a long time user of protein powder, bcaa's etc. it took me a long long time to figure out they caused me horrible bouts of relentless insomnia.

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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

My Mom has it and so do I...sucks. Wasn't so bad when I worked graveyard shift but now on dayshift I feel the effects. Seemed like it got worse for me when I turned 50 or so also since I HAVE to get up and pee about 3x night and going back to sleep is rough.
I'm a big coffee drinker but have a final cup no later than 4:30 in the afternoon.
10mg Melatonin before I go to bed but most nights half of that.
Evening beers are out the window unless I don't have to be up early.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

I'm all kinds of F'd up if I have any caffeine after about noon.

Melatonin has worked for me.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

I've been half insomniac since I quit being a daily pot smoker in my 20s. Getting to sleep isn't usually the problem, staying asleep is. The less alcohol the better, but when I can't get to sleep it sometimes helps. It just doesnt help me sleep through the night, so I try to avoid it. 

no coffee after noon (4:30 is way too late!)
1 hour of meditative Yoga 2 hours before bed
no computer two hours before bed. Use a (forget what they're called) program that reduces blue in the evening. 
little or no alcohol after dinner
reading before bed. Books. Not computer things. 
consider becoming a pothead again.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Get checked out by a sleep expert.
Get the sleep apnea test.
Go see your doctor.

Herbals like
- Valerian
- Saint Johns Wart

Countless prescription sleeping pills the docs push.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

2/3 of the people I see I treat for insomnia.

Meditation, sleep hygiene, sleep restriction, herbal remedies, these are all fine, but when someone is reporting chronic insomnia, they have almost always tried everything “natural”.

In order of preference:

Natural remedies
Melatonin 
Benadryl
Hydroxyzine
Clonidine/guanfacine
Trazadone/mirtazapine
TCA
Lunesta
Sonata
Ambien
Benzodiazepines

There are some newer medications worth trying if you have good insurance and/or don’t mind a higher copay.

Keep in mind that some folks have reasons for being unable to sleep, specifically sleep apnea.

Also consider whether the problem is falling asleep, staying asleep, getting back to sleep., etc

So yeah, if you ran the gamut for natural remedies then see a medical provider.

Not sleeping is bad for you in many ways.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

upstateSC-rider said:


> My Mom has it and so do I...sucks. Wasn't so bad when I worked graveyard shift but now on dayshift I feel the effects. Seemed like it got worse for me when I turned 50 or so also since I HAVE to get up and pee about 3x night and going back to sleep is rough.
> I'm a big coffee drinker but have a final cup no later than 4:30 in the afternoon.
> 10mg Melatonin before I go to bed but most nights half of that.
> Evening beers are out the window unless I don't have to be up early.


4:30 pm really?
Try a couple cups in the morning and then nothing else....

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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

I've long had an issue with waking at 3am or so with a general feeling of anxiety and hard to sleep afterwards. I quit coffee altogether a few months ago, that helped some. About a week ago I started using cbd and holy crap! It really works...not only do I sleep better, I feel better all day.

This is the one that I tried.
https://www.lazarusnaturals.com/shop/capsules/relaxation-formula-25mg-cbd-capsules


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

I had a prolonged period last year of waking up at 2am and being unable to sleep again. For me putting on a pair of IEM to block out external noises and then playing a loop of whale sounds at very low volumes worked. Focusing on the sound really helped switch the brain off.

I also used Brian Eno's "Ambient 1: Music for Airports." with success. Again, super low volume, focused on the sound, closed eyes, slowed breathing.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I've slept with white noise for roughly 27 years now. Usually a fan with a towel over it.

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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

I do that too. Had to start that when the effing neighbor wouldn't shut their dog up. Now its hard to sleep without it if I'm inside. Oddly I don't miss it if I'm sleeping outside.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Shark said:


> 4:30 pm really?
> Try a couple cups in the morning and then nothing else....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Are you crazy? What'd I do to you?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

430p for a stimulant is kinda late in the day if you want to sleep well less than six hours later.

I'd knock off the stimulants at least eight hours before bedtime; ten to twelve hours is better.

Some of us are lucky though, I drink coffee before bed and it knocks me out. True story.



upstateSC-rider said:


> Are you crazy? What'd I do to you?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> 430p for a stimulant is kinda late in the day if you want to sleep well less than six hours later.
> 
> I'd knock off the stimulants at least eight hours before bedtime; ten to twelve hours is better.
> 
> Some of us are lucky though, I drink coffee before bed and it knocks me out. True story.


So, my wife is a curious soul by nature (university professor) and has always been intrigued by the fact that I can and will drink coffee within minutes of getting into bed. Whereas she can't have any after about 2pm if she wants to be able to sleep after getting into bed at 10pm.

She did a bunch of reading well outside her chosen field and determined that it basically boils down to genetics. Basically some people have a gene or series of genes that allow them to process caffeine at a significantly faster rate than most others.

I'll see if I can get her to dig up the paper. IIRC it was a meta analysis of a bunch of other papers. I specifically remember one thing: AA genotype = fast metabolizers, and the AC and CC genotypes = slow metabolizers.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Michael Pollan's latest book on caffeine is an excellent read in an interesting Michael Pollan sort of way. Though I do think some of the studies and conclusions are sloppy for a journalistic take. Either way it's very comprehensive while engaging.

For myself even if I cut off coffee at 9 AM it can have a cumulative effect on my sleep quality over the course of several days vs abstaining. I think the affect on one's brain stem is universal. What I find interesting is caffeine in nature including the green coffee bean is almost always paired with Theanine which effects it's interplay with adenosine in the brain. 

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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Interesting thread with good information to consider.
Especially genics as posted by Le Duke - new to me.
Always appreciate the insights of a nurse too, Ben. 

I've been a late watch employee for just shy of 20 years, 10p to 6a. 
Drink coffee most of the night usually backing of by 4am. Food or snacks on shift is willy-nilly but always something. I like some daylight and mid week rides trails etc.... and always have /had reason (or want) to be awake mid day. Typical is bedtime of 730 or 8 am, sleep til I wake on my own at times- often that's 1130 a to 1 pm. Go back to bed around 7 pm to 8 pm to top off my sleep with a nap before going back to work. This is the way it's been for most of my night career and seems to work fine for me. There were times I felt the need to go crash for whatever duration and those were likely related to grampa daycare when I went a little thin on sleep over a few days. 9 to 12 hours was a good boost and I'd feel top of my game.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

white noise generator


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

I've been challenged with bouts of it for maybe the past 15 years. The type of work I do is definitely a factor as it involved many years of 24x7 on call.

When I was younger, I could sleep until 2pm no problem. I still fall asleep no problem but tend to wake up somewhere in the ~3-4 am range. More often I can fall back asleep in an hour or less but sometimes I get up (like this morning).

Low dose melatonin helps sometimes. I've tried completely cutting out alcohol, caffeine, screen time ~2 hours before bed, etc. and nothing brings consistency to my ability to stay asleep.

Also, I sleep worse after heavy exertion/exercise like all day bike rides/races, etc.

I don't stress over it anymore... just get what I can and take a short power nap as often as possible.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Ever had a sleep study?


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Crankout said:


> Ever had a sleep study?


I did... findings were that I have a very mild sleep apnea condition. They recommended I give a CPAP a try which I did for a few months. It was no help and quite unwieldy/uncomfortable. My wife worked in sleep medicine for a number of years and had me try different routines, etc.

Her sleep quality has diminished in recent years as well. At this point we are chalking it up to being over 50 with a good helping of work/life stress that comes from living in a major metropolitan area.

We definitely want to get the heck out of Dodge at some point and I'm thinking Missoula, MT would be an awesome downshift from East Coast frenetic pace BS


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

One of my long-term girlfriends was narcoleptic with cataplexy. She got a sleep study every year of which I sat in on to glean as much info as I could. My impression was professional wishful thinking passed off as science. The adderal was fun though. 

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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

edubfromktown said:


> I did... findings were that I have a very mild sleep apnea condition. They recommended I give a CPAP a try which I did for a few months. It was no help and quite unwieldy/uncomfortable. My wife worked in sleep medicine for a number of years and had me try different routines, etc.
> 
> Her sleep quality has diminished in recent years as well. At this point we are chalking it up to being over 50 with a good helping of work/life stress that comes from living in a major metropolitan area.
> 
> We definitely want to get the heck out of Dodge at some point and I'm thinking Missoula, MT would be an awesome downshift from East Coast frenetic pace BS


... and then there's the old person sleep thing which is real and can be a problem.

Racing thoughts, whatever the cause, are the single biggest cause of sleep delays as well as problems with falling back to sleep.

How to avoid racing thoughts ... um, try not to think about things you can't change, and avoid exposure to things that trigger your thinking about things you can't change. So avoid stressful encounters, avoid stressful social media, avoid stress.

For folks who have a "touch of obstructive apnea":

Put 2x4 blocks under the legs at the head of the bed
Use a thinner pillow
Stay hydrated


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

I know i have some amount of apnea because I've woken up with heart racing and one time I had a very frightening nightmare that I was being strangled by Mr. Death. But only once. Sometimes I can feel in my throat the next day where my soft palate was choking off my airway. Nevertheless i would have to be dragged sedated, kicking and screaming to a sleep test, and there's no way I could sleep during one lol. When I stay active and don't drink much and sleep on my stomach I don't think the apnea is my problem. My SO might beg to differ, if I had one. My problem is major life stress, major financial stress, coming off a years long legal retaliation battle against a former employer and not winning, and being too old to do much about any of this except be more monkish. 

I watched my mom have apnea in her 80's and it was kind of scary. I saw her go for 30-60 seconds without a breath.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> So, my wife is a curious soul by nature (university professor) and has always been intrigued by the fact that I can and will drink coffee within minutes of getting into bed. Whereas she can't have any after about 2pm if she wants to be able to sleep after getting into bed at 10pm.
> 
> She did a bunch of reading well outside her chosen field and determined that it basically boils down to genetics. Basically some people have a gene or series of genes that allow them to process caffeine at a significantly faster rate than most others.
> 
> I'll see if I can get her to dig up the paper. IIRC it was a meta analysis of a bunch of other papers. I specifically remember one thing: AA genotype = fast metabolizers, and the AC and CC genotypes = slow metabolizers.


or you can be as hyper as all get out and stimulants make you relax 

It was a newer thing, I struggled more with sleep as a younger person, twenty years ago I had a rash of insomnia, couldn't falla sleep, tried everything under the sun, then one day I started sleep again.

These days I sleep pretty good, occasional problems with racing thoughts, sometimes heavy exercise keeps me awake.

The coffee thing occurred to me a year ago when I noticed that if I had coffee at dinner, I was ready to hit the snooze button; I don't drink alcohol so when I went out with my wife she's drink beer and coffee was my treat 

So yeah, I'll have a coffee on nights when I want to sleep better, not more than once a week, and my sleep is much better with very little dreaming and I wake feeling great.

Most of the time, people are sleeping poorly because they can't divert their thoughts, often these folks have problems with anxiety and struggle with letting things go.

Being able to let things go is very important for mental health.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

I have no problem getting to sleep. But wake up between 4 and 5 and cant get back to sleep. Brain starts ticking over and thats it. No more sleep. I'm not an anxious person. I'm not thinking about things i cant change. I'm just generally thinking about interesting stuff. 

EG Should i get some max grip 2.6 minions and try them on my slayer? maybe 2.5's would be better..... I cant afford both..... but which one?

Maybe i need to try some white noise?


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## SoDakSooner (Nov 23, 2005)

plummet said:


> I have no problem getting to sleep. But wake up between 4 and 5 and cant get back to sleep. Brain starts ticking over and thats it. No more sleep. I'm not an anxious person. I'm not thinking about things i cant change. I'm just generally thinking about interesting stuff.
> 
> EG Should i get some max grip 2.6 minions and try them on my slayer? maybe 2.5's would be better..... I cant afford both..... but which one?
> 
> Maybe i need to try some white noise?


This is me to a T. Sometimes it's work stuff, other times it is normal day to day things, I just roll with it. Generally I sleep well to that point but if I wake up after about 330, I can forget about going back to sleep (get up at 5am anyway). I set my alarm for 530 as a fallback but have probably woken up to it once in the last 5 years.


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

I am a life long insomniac, I now try to avoid caffeine entirely

I had a prescription for Ambien for awhile.. it is bad news at least for me... I took a ambein while staying in a hotel during a work event, apparently (as I do not remember really) I needed to use the restroom and slipped and fell, shoulder checking the toilet upper reservoir tank, shattered it into 100s of tiny fragments.. I would have been fine (small bruise on shoulder) except one of the fragments cut the artery in my right ring finger and blood started spraying all over the place.. looked like a murder scene.

My wife was with me and called 911 I got rushed to the ER.... I could have died... I was super in and out with the ambulance ride and in the ER... Funny story .. I got to make an Archer (best cartoon ever) reference in the ER as the EMT's sent a photo of the accident scene to the ER doctor who said: "you really destroyed that toilet" to which I replied "PHRASING"!

I have a big scar on that finger and basically no feeling in it now... it is annoying..










I'd personally not recommend ambien / be VERY careful seeing how it affects you if you must.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Avoid caffeine
Avoid sugar
Avoid screens like your TV and your cell phone and your computer after 5 or 6pm
Turn the lights down at night
Keep your bedroom cool
Leave your cell phone out of the bedroom
Working out in the morning helps
Routine is important
If you have racing thoughts, then get checked out by a doctor for anxiety, or a.d.d. or a.d.h.d.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

For every horror story about Ambien there are hundreds of successes.

I don't generally start with Ambien as there are so many other choices, but when I do prescribe it I start it at a lower dose.

In terms of people who have a negative response, think of it this way:

What medication(s) has the greatest likelihood of a serious side effect?

Antibiotics.

So yeah, bucket of salt and all that ... Ambien works great for some folks.



atarione said:


> I had a prescription for Ambien for awhile.. it is bad news at least for me...
> I'd personally not recommend ambien / be VERY careful seeing how it affects you if you must.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

plummet said:


> I have no problem getting to sleep. But wake up between 4 and 5 and cant get back to sleep. Brain starts ticking over and thats it. No more sleep. I'm not an anxious person. I'm not thinking about things i cant change. I'm just generally thinking about interesting stuff.
> 
> EG Should i get some max grip 2.6 minions and try them on my slayer? maybe 2.5's would be better..... I cant afford both..... but which one?
> 
> Maybe i need to try some white noise?


Yes, Maxx 2.6 Minion DHF, just got one that I'll use on the front, regular 2.6 DHF out back, so excited to get them out and push it a bit!

So check it out, I have some 2.5 WT that measured as wide as the 2.6, so is it advertising or is the mold different??

Depends on the rim choice too .... so much to think about at 4am


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Obviously this is just a guess but maybe your diaphram is jammed.
When we look at most cats and babies it is obvious their breathing is located in their belley. Try to relearn that wich is our normal.
I would go on youtube, search yoga deep breathing. Practice about 5 min 4-5 times daily and let me know if it is easy or if it is not natural for you.
You can also simply lay flat on the floor, preheat the room if needed or put a blanket on the floor to avoid feeling cold. Just put a small light book on your belley just lower than your belley button and breathe using only your nose, push the book up and let the air out and repeat for a few minutes. You could also practice in a warm bath, heath is a relaxing factor.

Also your Ph might be too acid, just eat tons of fresh veggies to reverse that toxicity. Anything you can find celery, cucombers etc.. but fresh. It can be raw but not cold or steamed. So when your blood and breating is correct i bet you will sleep like a child just naturaly. Use no restriction for the first month, you feel sleepy = you sleep, no watch, no alarm manages your body. You need it just like all human but you are stuck on a bad pattern.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Ya, I was going to mention that before, greens make me sleep. The more, the better/deeper I sleep. I believe it's the chlorophyll but not sure. 

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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

A low testosterone level can cause sleep problems. Have it checked.


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## moab63 (Dec 29, 2003)

No I haven't, as I write this I'm sleepy haha how ironic.
Forgot the quote, it was the sleep study.


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## moab63 (Dec 29, 2003)

Fuse6F said:


> A low testosterone level can cause sleep problems. Have it checked.


Well, I'm the right age so maybe I'll do that as well.


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## moab63 (Dec 29, 2003)

33red said:


> Obviously this is just a guess but maybe your diaphram is jammed.
> When we look at most cats and babies it is obvious their breathing is located in their belley. Try to relearn that wich is our normal.
> I would go on youtube, search yoga deep breathing. Practice about 5 min 4-5 times daily and let me know if it is easy or if it is not natural for you.
> You can also simply lay flat on the floor, preheat the room if needed or put a blanket on the floor to avoid feeling cold. Just put a small light book on your belley just lower than your belley button and breathe using only your nose, push the book up and let the air out and repeat for a few minutes. You could also practice in a warm bath, heath is a relaxing factor.
> ...


How appropriate I'm a cat person, sounds like something I could try. Thanks


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## moab63 (Dec 29, 2003)

*Thanks guys*

Well in a way, I don't feel as bad thinking I'm the only one. I tried man things on here but several are new and interesting. The most ironic thing about this, is that my wife sleeps like a hibernating bear.

She is out cold, doesn't hear or feel you, can wake up and go back to sleep on the blink of an eye, is almost like magic so freaking jealous of her. She has a stressful job, but it doesn't matter.

I do have a fear of drugs, habit forming stuff so I'll keep trying with natural, breathing not whatever foods and see what happens. Got some big races coming up, need to get it sorted out.:thumbsup:


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

I can't sleep right now....lol

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## moab63 (Dec 29, 2003)

This is no joke, my dad slept with a thermos filled with coffee so when he woke up in the middle of the night he will drink it. His whole life.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

moab63 said:


> This is no joke, my dad slept with a thermos filled with coffee so when he woke up in the middle of the night he will drink it. His whole life.


Well, that may not be a joke but it's damn funny !

:thumbsup:


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

edubfromktown said:


> I did... findings were that I have a very mild sleep apnea condition. They recommended I give a CPAP a try which I did for a few months. It was no help and quite unwieldy/uncomfortable. My wife worked in sleep medicine for a number of years and had me try different routines, etc.
> 
> Her sleep quality has diminished in recent years as well. At this point we are chalking it up to being over 50 with a good helping of work/life stress that comes from living in a major metropolitan area.
> 
> We definitely want to get the heck out of Dodge at some point and I'm thinking Missoula, MT would be an awesome downshift from East Coast frenetic pace BS


Seems worse than 'mild' but I'm no sleep doc.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yes, Maxx 2.6 Minion DHF, just got one that I'll use on the front, regular 2.6 DHF out back, so excited to get them out and push it a bit!
> 
> So check it out, I have some 2.5 WT that measured as wide as the 2.6, so is it advertising or is the mold different??
> 
> Depends on the rim choice too .... so much to think about at 4am


Indeed.

Maxterra or max grip? I'm thinking maxgrip for the next tire trial.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

matt4x4 said:


> Avoid caffeine
> Avoid sugar
> Avoid screens like your TV and your cell phone and your computer after 5 or 6pm
> Turn the lights down at night
> ...


Plus no screen time for hours before bed etc. I can see how this helps getting to sleep.

But what about the dude like me who easily gets to sleep and then wakes up too early?
Does stuff like screen time before bed affect waking up early?

what can specifically help the early waker?

PS I dont do refined sugar or caffiene. I wake up early regardless of screens or not.

Or am I just a morning person with nothing wrong with me? Maybe 10.30-11 to 4-5 is my lot in life?


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

As mentioned...see a doctor or sleep specialist.

My mother had problems sleeping, but those went away when she started taking a Dramamine (motion sickness - not the non-sleepy formula) before bed and it never seemed to have side effects. The times I've taken Benadryl (diphenhydramine) for allergies, or Nytol (doxylamine) for a cold, after a couple of days I started to get depressed and "dopey" from it.

When I add any natural supplement, I talk to my pharmacist first, just to see if it's safe. Sometimes, you can get unpleasant interactions.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

plummet said:


> Plus no screen time for hours before bed etc. I can see how this helps getting to sleep.
> 
> But what about the dude like me who easily gets to sleep and then wakes up too early?
> Does stuff like screen time before bed affect waking up early?
> ...


In my opinion i see things quite simply.
Society trains us from 3 years old to be regular because it makes us managable.
If you wake up to pee, pee get in bed, close your eyes.
If your brain is alert, do stuff. If you are tired later, sleep, nap, do not focus on your watch or what is ***standard***. Others animals rest as needed, be smart do the same. I am energized by the sun, often i am up pedaling and enjoying the sunrise, even the moon some minutes earlier. Your needs are your needs, period.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

plummet said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Maxterra or max grip? I'm thinking maxgrip for the next tire trial.


The one Mikesee sent me is MaxxTerra, the MaxxGrip would be cool but I'd wear it out too fast. Out back I'm running the EXO TR for durability. I wore out a DHR and HR waaay too fast when riding Moab kinda stuff.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Blue light from the screens really messes with ya.
Waking up in the middle of the night, could very well be sleep apnea, or some other medical condition. There are sleep institutes that can analyze your pysiologicals while sleeping. Sleep apnea test is easy to do.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

WHALENARD said:


> Ya, I was going to mention that before, greens make me sleep. The more, the better/deeper I sleep.


The green helps me sleep too, especially a good Indica.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

andytiedye said:


> The green helps me sleep too, especially a good Indica.


I am in Canada and a doctor was saying each year he spends a month up north and works with our amerindiens. The older ones are the healthier because they live 5 months in nature. No stores to buy food they eat what they catch.
When we eat from boxes and cans we generate all kinds of problems. Just look any city in north america is full of pharmacies, clinics, general doctors, some for the back, the eyes and so on. I try to buy items(no ingredients listed) like potatoes, carots, onions, beans, lentils so i sleep like a baby. I generaly wake up with a smile. Often we create our problems until we realize stopping something is the solution.
Happy trails


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> ... and then there's the old person sleep thing which is real and can be a problem.
> 
> Racing thoughts, whatever the cause, are the single biggest cause of sleep delays as well as problems with falling back to sleep.
> 
> ...


Great suggestions- thanks...

Racing thoughts are definitely a problem in my line of work... corp cloud and IT security field 

I've read books about putting things a way in a box and other sorts of compartmentalization strategies. Some have been helpful but there are certain times I just wake up.

Some of my colleagues do not sleep more than a few hours per night like for YEARS. I don't know how they do it. If I'm running on less than 5 hours for a few days, it gets ugly real quick. Thankfully that hasn't been the case for quite some time.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Yes, eating pure foods instead of any processed foods help in sleeping. That is common sense. Most don't do it, if they even know the chemical problem in processed foods. Most will just put it to the wayside and munch down on them Oreo's.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)




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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So about racing thoughts, really any thoughts, there comes a point at which thinking about something is not beneficial, which leads to them being harmful.

So thinking about a work related issue: Have you already thought about it at work? Is thinking about it at home going to solve it? Probably not, but what it will do is increase stress, reduce relaxation, and possibly disturb your sleep. Racing thoughts that keep you awake are a huge problem because it increases your stress and reduces your stress relief (sleep).

In a typical day, we put aside certain thoughts; the vast majority of the things we think about fall into this category. What is unique about the thoughts we don't put aside is that we stay "interested" in these thoughts.

So what would interest someone in thinking about the past? Maybe it's a unresolved issue, something that you regret, or maybe something you would like to do over.

The key to putting aside these thoughts is coming to a closure with them and allowing them to be what they are: history.

It may seem like it's helpful to relieve the past, at times it can even be fun, but the majority of the time it is harmful because these thoughts are often associated with negative feelings.

So yeah, avoid thinking about things that make you feel bad, take control of your thoughts.

And yes, it's easier said than done, but if you learn how to put away negative thoughts then you will be more relaxed and be happier 



edubfromktown said:


> Great suggestions- thanks...
> 
> Racing thoughts are definitely a problem in my line of work... corp cloud and IT security field
> 
> ...


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

andytiedye said:


> The green helps me sleep too, especially a good Indica.


Both strains light my brain up, which is fine. I would be interested in trying the CBcheebs for sleep though most everything has a stimulating effect on me.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Meditation works well in decreasing anxiety, depression and racing thoughts.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

matt4x4 said:


> Meditation works well in decreasing anxiety, depression and racing thoughts.


But what if you enjoy racing?


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> So about racing thoughts, really any thoughts, there comes a point at which thinking about something is not beneficial, which leads to them being harmful.
> 
> So thinking about a work related issue: Have you already thought about it at work? Is thinking about it at home going to solve it? Probably not, but what it will do is increase stress, reduce relaxation, and possibly disturb your sleep. Racing thoughts that keep you awake are a huge problem because it increases your stress and reduces your stress relief (sleep).
> 
> ...


I hear ya... not so much negative thoughts. Biggest challenge with the day job is that all the tech stuff was made by HUMANS so there are bugs, misconfigurations, vulnerabilities, etc.

Life stress is more about_ the cares that infest the day_ as Wadsworth so eloquently put it. Except that in my case, they do not all fold their tents


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Do you think with all the modern technological "conveniences" we have life is less stressful?


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

edubfromktown said:


> I hear ya... not so much negative thoughts. Biggest challenge with the day job is that all the tech stuff was made by HUMANS so there are bugs, misconfigurations, vulnerabilities, etc.
> 
> Life stress is more about_ the cares that infest the day_ as Wadsworth so eloquently put it. Except that in my case, they do not all fold their tents


A good way to control our mind is to control our body and breath.
15 minutes of tai-chi or yoga or breathing will transform anybody.
OK maybe not tonite but with practice it will work.
I remember when i started taichi the class started on the ground to relax
and most times i was napping. 
Find a good teacher or use youtube and you can improve your quality of life and sleep.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

OldBlue950 said:


> Do you think with all the modern technological "conveniences" we have life is less stressful?


We, as in the more industrialized nations, yeah, I think we have more stress because we have made our lives too complicated and too expensive, so there aren't many low stress/low cost lifestyles for folks who want out.

I see a fair number of folks who are homeless, lots of folks on disability, a handful who live off the grid. It's hard to judge who is happier, the folks who are well off but can only remain so by working or those who have little but don't have to work to maintain it.

I have two graduate degrees in the social sciences, my dissertation was on the social foundations of the American Dream. My premise was that the home ownership was not beneficial to the citizenry, but simply a means to grow the economy. It's no mystery that home ownership is driving force in a political economy, whereas most other industrialized nations are focused on long term rentals and leases.

I think humans could be satisfied with less economic wealth and greater social wealth, but I'm at a loss as to how this change would come about. I think capitalism will ultimately fail because it's based on a false premise: that the wealth of a few will trickle down to the many. Income disparity is growing while at the same it is becoming more expensive to live.

Our economic engine is fed by cheap natural resources. What happens when the nation's resources are exhausted?

Surprisingly, this stuff ^ no longer keeps me awake 


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

I once asked an older gentleman what his first house cost. He said 2x annual salary. I said mine was 4x annual salary. I asked if it had anything to do with having both the husband and wife working today. He replied it was not common for the wife to work when he bought his first house.

Does it seem like we may have traded the ability to be a traditional mother and wife for more family stress and kids raised in day care.

Adding it up = we need to work harder for the same resources.

I should get some sleep!


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

33red said:


> A good way to control our mind is to control our body and breath.
> 15 minutes of tai-chi or yoga or breathing will transform anybody.
> OK maybe not tonite but with practice it will work.
> I remember when i started taichi the class started on the ground to relax
> ...


Didn't work for me


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

NordieBoy said:


> Didn't work for me


I wish you luck.
My girlfriend had some health issues so she tried improving her diet, a tai-chi class but left because he was simply a guy practicing not helpfull at all.
Tried an other tai-chi class and it was helping her.
Out of curiousity i went and a real teacher simply helps people.
Her or his energy level improves the energy level of all in the class.
I also experiencd that in Yoga.
A real teacher made me do an advanced position/asana
even if i was not advanced.
The energy is invisible but it is real.
Maybe go to a health food store, ask, look at free ads on the wall.
They are everywhere.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> We, as in the more industrialized nations, yeah, I think we have more stress because we have made our lives too complicated and too expensive, so there aren't many low stress/low cost lifestyles for folks who want out.


Fire lookout. That's my out.



> I see a fair number of folks who are homeless, lots of folks on disability, a handful who live off the grid. It's hard to judge who is happier, the folks who are well off but can only remain so by working or those who have little but don't have to work to maintain it.


Not saying either end has the happiness advantage, esp the homeless who don't seem very happy to me, but a lot of people in the middle definitely don't.



> I have two graduate degrees in the social sciences, my dissertation was on the social foundations of the American Dream. My premise was that the home ownership was not beneficial to the citizenry, but simply a means to grow the economy. It's no mystery that home ownership is driving force in a political economy, whereas most other industrialized nations are focused on long term rentals and leases.


 I agree with your thesis, but would go even farther. Mortgages are the biggest scam in history. What else can a person spend 30 years of their life paying off just for the privilege of having a place to stay? I'm not sure renting is any better though...at least with ownership you aren't flushing ALL of it down the toilet like you do with rent, just a large chunk of it.

But this is the price people convince themselves they are willing to pay, for a lifestyle they may want but don't need.



> I think humans could be satisfied with less economic wealth and greater social wealth, but I'm at a loss as to how this change would come about. I think capitalism will ultimately fail because it's based on a false premise: that the wealth of a few will trickle down to the many. Income disparity is growing while at the same it is becoming more expensive to live.


I quoted Wendell Berry before, in this thread I think. You should read him.



> Our economic engine is fed by cheap natural resources. What happens when the nation's resources are exhausted?


*
Trump signs executive order to support moon mining*

https://www.space.com/trump-moon-mining-space-resources-executive-order.html



> Surprisingly, this stuff ^ no longer keeps me awake 


Me neither, but I think about all day.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I choosed to live simply 30 years ago. Now at 62 i never regretted it ounce.
There is a price.
In my opinion trying to buy happiness is too pricy.
It is like 2 kids who want a toy.
Always pulling never winning.
Earning a little, having lots of free time = less stress = more health.
No fear to loose. I enjoy more sunrises and am happier than some
millionaires i know.
No phone, no car, no credit last 20 years.
Just a few bikes and an old laptop.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

One cup of coffee in the morning and no more caffeine. Exercise and mental happiness throughout the day. No more than 1 drink in there evening, less if you don't weigh much or are a female. Go to sleep by reading, not a computer or a phone. If you wake up and can't go back to sleep, get straight up and start on your day full speed ahead. 
Was a chronic insomniac from childhood due to insecurity and inactivity but have completely corrected that as an adult and sleep like a baby now. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

One thing about caffeine, it takes a while to work out of your system.

Every so often, say once a month maybe, I'll skip a day of coffee drinking.
I find it helps a lot. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## motovet144 (Mar 1, 2011)

This is definitely a fifty and over forum because not one mention of sex before bedtime! Sex is the best stress reliever I know of and I sleep like a baby afterwards. Unfortunately my wife likes to have sex in the morning so I sleep half the freaking day away! WTH!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

That's because sex is better in the middle of the day, after coffee and a ride, you come home, take shower and hop in the sack, then you have the rest of the day to putter.

Nighttime sex is for kids, I gotta work in the morning!



motovet144 said:


> This is definitely a fifty and over forum because not one mention of sex before bedtime! Sex is the best stress reliever I know of and I sleep like a baby afterwards. Unfortunately my wife likes to have sex in the morning so I sleep half the freaking day away! WTH!


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Its all about routine and doing things that promote sleep and not hinder it. 
Drinking a Red Bull at 7pm is going to hinder sleep.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

motovet144 said:


> This is definitely a fifty and over forum because not one mention of sex before bedtime! Sex is the best stress reliever I know of and I sleep like a baby afterwards. Unfortunately my wife likes to have sex in the morning so I sleep half the freaking day away! WTH!


Lol so true.
Sleep great after

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

its a 50+ forum cause we are staying up at night worried about our teenage sons and daughters having sex.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Fuse6F said:


> its a 50+ forum cause we are staying up at night worried about our teenage sons and daughters having sex.


There is hope...
at 60 U can have lots of 65-77
sleeping is not the focus
we just use naps


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

https://www.caffeineinformer.com/the-half-life-of-caffeine
Caffeine is no different and takes a certain amount of time to work through your system and be metabolized by your liver. One study showed that the half-life of caffeine in healthy adults is 5.7 hours (see source). This means if you consume 200 mg of caffeine at mid-day, you would still have 100 mg in you at around 5:45 pm.

The same study mentioned above showed that people with compromised liver function had a significantly longer half-life (a 49-year-old woman having alcoholic hepatic disease had a serum half-life of 168 hours)

Others can have genetic factors influencing the gene responsible for caffeine metabolism. The gene CYP1A2 is needed by the liver breakdown up to 95% of the caffeine in the body. Other genes can influence how well this gene does its job (src).


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Fuse6F said:


> its a 50+ forum cause we are staying up at night worried about our teenage sons and daughters having sex.


At this age I think most of us have adult children, so if they're having sex all I can say is get me some damn grand kids or we're using up your inheritance!


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

motovet144 said:


> This is definitely a fifty and over forum because not one mention of sex before bedtime!...


In my fifties I was looked forward to turning 60.

What a disappointment being a sexagenarian turned out to be.

And 69 was an even bigger let down...


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Fuse6F said:


> its a 50+ forum cause we are staying up at night worried about our teenage sons and daughters having sex.


Damn you! I have 2 teenage daughters..... now I can't sleep!


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## Stormwalker (Feb 23, 2011)

.....


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

How has the recommendations for a good nights sleep affected your sleeping pattern ?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

If I doze off during the afternoon or evening, even for a millisecond, I have a helluva time trying to sleep that night. I require 8-9 hours to function at %100, always have. My understanding is a lot of tribal cultures wake up during the night/early AM for an extended period before going back to sleep. At any rate, being mindful of most things mentioned here has been plenty successful at curing my bouts of insomnia. Methinks if you're considering pharmaceutical drugs with side effects to achieve the most basic and natural biological function you may want to take some time to really evaluate your life.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

WHALENARD said:


> If I doze off during the afternoon or evening, even for a millisecond, I have a helluva time trying to sleep that night. I require 8-9 hours to function at %100, always have. My understanding is a lot of tribal cultures wake up during the night/early AM for an extended period before going back to sleep. At any rate, being mindful of most things mentioned here has been plenty successful at curing my bouts of insomnia. Methinks if you're considering pharmaceutical drugs with side effects to achieve the most basic and natural biological function you may want to take some time to really evaluate your life.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


There are plenty of basic and natural biological functions that don't "function" well, for example eyesight, urination, bowels, hearing, etc...

My point: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Some people; actually quite a few people, struggle with sleep and it has nothing to do with schedule, structure, hygiene, lifestyle, etc...

Don't judge others as you would judge yourself, we are not all alike in all cases.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

plummet said:


> Damn you! I have 2 teenage daughters..... now I can't sleep!


LOL

I have two daughter's in their 20's now, and I still have _*some*_ hair left haha

Jokes aside, I didn't worry about them all that much during the teen years. They were generally good about coming home when they said they would which was a great stress reliever!

Good luck to you.


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## Racecar (Oct 10, 2019)

I have always had a hard time going to sleep, and it has always been hard to get out of bed in the morning and go to work. Melotonin worked for years, but lately it seems to cause extremely dry eyes.
I retired from 8-5 a few years ago and started staying up later. I don't try to fight it, just stay up till I get tired, usually 1 or 2, sleep till 9 or 10, that seems to work. Glad I don't have a regular job anymore.  Remember the 60's; Don't want no war, Don't want no war, Don't want no job either.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Do everything thats been suggested.
Stay away from digital screens and televisions from 5pm onwards
Turn your cell phone off at supper time
Dont eat at night.
Dont drink coffee or pop or anything with sugar in it
Stay away from sugar.
Have 3 meals a day, with light snacks in between.
Work out at the gym
theres always more to do to help sleep 

If you were to go out to the boonies, you'd start to go to be early and wake up early.

When I go to the cabin, I go to bed real early because I am working hard, cutting logs, clearing land, swimming, boating, fishing, clearing snow, mowing grass, cleaning, not looking at the tv or computer screen or cell phone. By the end of the day I am tired. 

If I am at the computer all night long, watching TV, eating junk food, looking at the cell phone and did nothing all day, yeah I'd stay up until midnight or 1am, easy.


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## trailmindandbody (May 21, 2020)

Have you guys thought about trying any CBD products to help with your insomnia? I'm a huge rider and actually make my own CBD stuff for myself and my traildog - born out of necessity - I use my 1500mg tincture about a half hour before bed, it seems to really help. I have also noticed how restful my sleep is when I've taken a CBD bath bomb the night before. If anyone's interested, DM me on IG @trailmindandbody and I'll hook you up with a free 75mg bath bomb with any order. These are hand made, small batch goods that are crafted for mountainbikers and their traildogs. Either way it's great to see our community supporting each other as we try to be our healthiest selves. I love the focus on meditation and mental health on this thread, and taking time to develop a 'nighttime routine' will help with restful sleep. Shred on! 

trailmindandbody.com


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

CBD and THC affects people differently so its worth a try. I know people that THC makes them sleepy.


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## trailmindandbody (May 21, 2020)

matt4x4 said:


> CBD and THC affects people differently so its worth a try. I know people that THC makes them sleepy.


It's true that everyone's physiology is different and the same substance and amount won't have the same effect on everyone. THC in high doses is known to have a sedating effect, particularly strains that are an indica variety with the terpene myrcene present, which seem to interact with your brain's receptors responsible for your sleep and wake cycle.

However, THC can also make users feel giddy, excited, and paranoid- it can be an intense experience for the uninitiated, and you have to know your source. Some THC strains will keep me wired until the wee hours of the morning. CBD counteracts this effect, and can be utilized at any time without fear of intoxication. It's all about finding the right strain, or ratio, between cbd and thc for each particular person.

I hope everyone finds just what they need to get a restful night's sleep.


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## cjcrawford (Jun 2, 2008)

Yes, my 23andMe analysis clearly states that I do not process caffeine quickly due to genomics. As with most 23andMe results, they are things I figured out 40 years ago.


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## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

moab63 said:


> ... very light sleep anything wakes me up then I can't go back to sleep.
> I never tired enough to fall sleep, even riding 20+hrs per week and work, actually makes it worst.:skep:


I have become much more sensitive to caffeine these past 3 years.
I would suggest that you may have the same or a similar problem. Any caffeine after 1 pm keeps me up or makes me wake up multiple times during the night.
I can only drink one 32 ounce iced tea, no soda and no refined sugar at all.

Try eliminating caffeine and sugar and see if you find it helps you rest better.


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> 430p for a stimulant is kinda late in the day if you want to sleep well less than six hours later.
> 
> I'd knock off the stimulants at least eight hours before bedtime; ten to twelve hours is better.
> 
> Some of us are lucky though, I drink coffee before bed and it knocks me out. True story.


I had a gf who, like you, swore coffee put her to sleep. Now that I think back, maybe that was just an excuse.


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

matt4x4 said:


> Get checked out by a sleep expert.
> Get the sleep apnea test.
> Go see your doctor.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it's wort, not wart. Jeebus. Who wants to nibble on SJ's wart? :eekster:


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

atarione said:


> I am a life long insomniac, I now try to avoid caffeine entirely
> 
> I had a prescription for Ambien for awhile.. it is bad news at least for me... I took a ambein while staying in a hotel during a work event, apparently (as I do not remember really) I needed to use the restroom and slipped and fell, shoulder checking the toilet upper reservoir tank, shattered it into 100s of tiny fragments.. I would have been fine (small bruise on shoulder) except one of the fragments cut the artery in my right ring finger and blood started spraying all over the place.. looked like a murder scene.
> 
> ...


Weird about the fingers- I had a 'bizarre gardening incident' years ago that severed the tendon and left the pinkie on my right hand curled up and basically useless, except for carrying a water bottle with a loop, lol. Can't pick my nose with that finger. Sooo bummed. :madman:


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

plummet said:


> But what if you enjoy being racist?


This is my problem. My mind is racist at night and I can't get back to sleep!


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

Velobike said:


> In my fifties I was looked forward to turning 60.
> 
> What a disappointment being a sexagenarian turned out to be.
> 
> And 69 was an even bigger let down...


If 69 is a disappointment, you're doing it wrong.


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## Greg_Bennet (Nov 9, 2020)

Finch Platte said:


> I had a gf who, like you, swore coffee put her to sleep. Now that I think back, maybe that was just an excuse.


Hi Finch Platte, sorry for interrupting your lovely conversation. I always thought that headache is an good excuse 

Because of my insomnia I decided to refuse from drinking coffee in large dosage. I thought it would be so hard. But it was in opposite. My doctor recommended me to take melatonin from https://www.vitaminexpress.org/uk/melatonin-supplements. I take melatonin 5mg for several years now. It helped me with my sleep. My information was it's a very good anti-oxidant, too. The serotonin metabolism might be affected since melatonin is converted into serotonin and vice versa (under usage of other substances). At least, that is my information.

I had the feeling that it had some positive influence on my mood, too.

My doctor was surprised I do well with only 5mg, she commonly prescribes up to 25mg.
I think that everyone's body is unique, for someone it works, for someone not. I also was trying Ambien, and felt so sleepy. So I stopped.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I just spent a week in hospital. I slept 8 hours, only that was the TOTAL amount of sleep for the entire week. Now I know what you insomniacs mean. Its tough. I feel for you.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I’ve got some patients who really struggle with sleep, one lady is in her eighties and can’t sleep longer than thirty minutes at a time; it’s literally making her sick. Tried her on all the major sleep aids, best we could do is three to four hours a night on Ambien 5mg.

I got another lady who failed everything except high dose Seroquel, so far she’s doing okay, no crazy weight gain, and she feels better.

My current population is on the older side, so sleep is more of an issue than when I was seeing young adults and kids.

I feel fortunate that I sleep well.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> I've got some patients who really struggle with sleep, one lady is in her eighties and can't sleep longer than thirty minutes at a time; it's literally making her sick. Tried her on all the major sleep aids, best we could do is three to four hours a night on Ambien 5mg.
> 
> I got another lady who failed everything except high dose Seroquel, so far she's doing okay, no crazy weight gain, and she feels better.
> 
> ...


In my area cannabis was legalized about 2 years ago. I did not try it i am healthy. Is it legal in your area? Does it helps to sleep?


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## ShakyDog (Oct 24, 2019)

33red said:


> In my area cannabis was legalized about 2 years ago. I did not try it i am healthy. Is it legal in your area? Does it helps to sleep?


Legal for medical. It 100% helps me sleep, but it has its own side effects. I am not 100% sold on using it as a permanent solution. For me there are still too many unknowns.

Steve


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

I bought some hemp CBD oil (no THC) for an older friend of mine (70 ish) who has trouble sleeping, when i was in Oregon this summer. She says it helps. Not cheap though. 

I also picked up some high CBD content low THC content weed for my inner teenager. It barely gives me a buzz (and that's fine, because it also doesn't make me paranoid) but 1 or 2 tokes late in the evening seems to help me sleep. I'm not too keen on becoming a daily toker again though...

Somebody who is not experienced with cannabis should not start out with a high THC product, which most are these days. Look for something with equal or greater amounts of CBD. Of course if you're buying from Vinnie on the corner you won't know what you're getting, so don't buy from Vinnie on the corner


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

OldBlue950 said:


> I bought some hemp CBD oil (no THC) for an older friend of mine (70 ish) who has trouble sleeping, when i was in Oregon this summer. She says it helps. Not cheap though.
> 
> I also picked up some high CBD content low THC content weed for my inner teenager. It barely gives me a buzz (and that's fine, because it also doesn't make me paranoid) but 1 or 2 tokes late in the evening seems to help me sleep. I'm not too keen on becoming a daily toker again though...
> 
> Somebody who is not experienced with cannabis should not start out with a high THC product, which most are these days. Look for something with equal or greater amounts of CBD. Of course if you're buying from Vinnie on the corner you won't know what you're getting, so don't buy from Vinnie on the corner


Thanks for sharing.
Our governement has stores just like liquor store but for canabis. My mom, 88 years old widow takes 9 pills daily so i suggested she try some probably edibles but she prefers giving $$ to big pharma. About 5 years ago i heard an interview, the doctor in Australia said she was prescibing it for 10 years and found it a great tool that can help people with many different problems.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

I know that some edibles like gummies can have a very long-lasting effect (which is why I have never tried them), so people should probably start out with small amounts and build up slowly until they are sure that effect is desirable. For some people, it isn't. 

Despite being a long time user (heavy when I was young, extremely light to not at all in recent decades) I'm wary of all the amazing claims being made about cannabis products these days. It certainly has its uses but I think some of the claims are over the top.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

33red said:


> In my area cannabis was legalized about 2 years ago. I did not try it i am healthy. Is it legal in your area? Does it helps to sleep?


Legal in Nevada.

Does it help? Some of my clients think so, but if can also cause some problems: acute psychosis, mood swings, cyclical vomiting, anxiety, depression.

It's a drug, it's not a cure all, people are so wierd about THC and CBD, as if these substances can cure all our ills.

Has anyone ever wondered what drives THC and CBD research and marketing?

$$$$$$$$$$$


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

33red said:


> Thanks for sharing.
> Our governement has stores just like liquor store but for canabis. My mom, 88 years old widow takes 9 pills daily so i suggested she try some probably edibles but she prefers giving $$ to big pharma. About 5 years ago i heard an interview, the doctor in Australia said she was prescibing it for 10 years and found it a great tool that can help people with many different problems.


Your 88 yo mother doesn't give dollars to big pharmacy, she's on Medicare, who are you fooling?

Your mother may know something you don't know, ie cannabis is no different now than it was when we were kids, except the government and investors have figured out how to make it profitable.

The use of pharmaceuticals is so much more controlled and well researched than cannabis, it's a joke to suggest otherwise.

If only cannabis was like you say, then I could give it to all my clients, I'm sure it can cure psychosis as easily as it cures blindness ?


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## Bikeworks (Sep 10, 2020)

If it hasn't been recommended yet, I'll offer up GABA, the main inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain. It's done wonders to regulate my sleep. It also is helpful for people with anxiety, and is considered a godsend for some who suffer from seizure disorders.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> Has anyone ever wondered what drives THC and CBD research and marketing?
> 
> $$$$$$$$$$$


Wow, THAT sounds like a unique situation.


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## Xylx (Mar 18, 2005)

I'm 65 and have had insomnia forever. I've taken Lunesta for years. It puts me down, but doesn''t keep me asleep. Ambien is wonderful for its knockout punch, but should not be used long term and I've had Ambien moments. Like when you wake up and you baked a cake or something and have no memory of it. CBD did nothing for me, even in massive quantities. So what I do now is take a Lunesta and eat a 10 mg pot gummy before bed. The Lunesta puts me to sleep and pot won't start to work for two hours. I essentially get high in my sleep. I sleep great. It took me many tries to find the right gummy. It has to be the Indica strain for me, not a hybrid, pure Indica and the more terpenes it has the better I sleep. Depending on your where you buy there can be little to no information about the contents, strain etc, to fully detailed descriptions. And it's not state by state, it's dispensary by dispensary (brand by brand) in my experience. I've bought gummies in five different states and it just varies.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

I have not slept great for a lot of years. The why and how of sleep problems are mind boggling. Retired from a job that kept me in a hotel 3-4 nights a week-I managed to keep on.

So some stuff I might that work MOST of the time:
My latest is taking Vitamin B1 about an hour before sleep time;
Usually it is noise that I cannot control-whiny a/c unit or [you fill in the blank for your item] that keeps/wakes me;
Do not fight the sleeplessness;
Do not get angry, etc. at not being able to sleep;
Try to think of stuff that is pleasing while trying to sleep; That would be up to you;
I give myself 20 mins to fall asleep. If unable get up and read;
Some odd reason lying flat on my back helps;
Keep the room cool and dark;
If I wake up, I do the above;
I plan for a quick nap during the day-lessens the sleep deficit.; Lots of negativity about napping-not me. I can nap 3-4 hours before sleeping. A sleep deficit is bad ju-ju. hands down.
I found a white noise machine that helped quite a bit. Look at Lectrofan. 



I found many, many suggestions over the years. Some help, most don't. Sleeplessness/fixing it is very individual.


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## Retire (Jan 11, 2020)

I am 62 and used to suffer with insomnia when younger. It would take me hours to fall asleep at times, even though I felt tired. That alarm clock was my nemesis. I had to have 3 of them scattered around set at slightly different times! About ready to go to a doctor when I decided I would try limiting the coffee to before noon. And then limiting the amount as well. Big help! But still suffered. Hard to fall asleep, wake up in the middle of the night WIDE awake and feeling fresh for no reason, wake up feeling tired when I believed I had slept well.

Tried the OTC pills. They actually worked pretty good to get to sleep (nice feeling to take one and then about 30 minutes later having difficulty keeping your eyes open, knowing you are about to check out). Didn’t like the feeling the next morning and relying on a pill to sleep. I can see why some people like them though.

What has worked for ME, is starting a gym routine and reducing my intake of refined white sugar. I have gone so far as to quit my Margarita habit and now sip my tequila straight, no more donuts with the coffee I do have. Now I fall asleep quicker, stay asleep and wake up rested. Worth a shot and you don’t have to rely on pharmaceuticals.


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## DaveGRE (Jan 17, 2021)

moab63 said:


> Has nothing to do with the virus or anything like that. Has always been an issue, very light sleep anything wakes me up then I can't go back to sleep. At least 20-30' at night before I doze off.
> 
> I tried over the counter stuff, all I get is dizzy. Any natural or prescription stuff. I never tired enough to fall sleep, even riding 20+hrs per week and work, actually makes it worst.:skep:


600 mg a night of Gabapetin you will sleep like a baby!


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Retire said:


> What has worked for ME, is starting a gym routine and reducing my intake of refined white sugar. I have gone so far as to quit my Margarita habit and now sip my tequila straight, no more donuts with the coffee I do have. Now I fall asleep quicker, stay asleep and wake up rested. Worth a shot and you don't have to rely on pharmaceuticals.


Just mention the word sugar, and that gets me going. We have been raised with an over abundance of sugar in foods since we were born. Lately I have been learning about insulin glucose, sugar, carbs etc. and how they fit into our metabolism. I am anxious to avoid sugar related problems. Dementia, weight, diabetes, etc. etc.

Sleep issues and their fixes vary so much person to person. Sugar intake might very well could be a player for YOU. If you feel inclined, check out glycemic index and glycemic load. You may be able to cut back on any sugar in your body even more. Just guessing.

Cheers.


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## Noddinggod (Apr 5, 2021)

I can hardly sleep anymore. The only things that work are benzos or ambien but I don't take them because they are painful habits and it's hard to get a doc to write in my state. The doc says exercise. I do that plenty. I am getting really spaced out and hollow looking. It sucks a get maybe 8 hours a week and always at bad times like 45 min in the middle of the day. Hopefully it gets better because it's starting to hurt. Also all the door over the counter stuff does very very little. I don't want a pill habit but I need to sleep some day.


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## Noddinggod (Apr 5, 2021)

DaveGRE said:


> 600 mg a night of Gabapetin you will sleep like a baby!


I tried that and it did nothing. Not for sleep or the nerve pain in my feet. Xanax works great but I don't need a pill habit and getting a doc to write for that is like someone giving you a free Santa Cruz bronson. Not very likely


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

I've had sleep problems forever, but they got worse in my 50s. I generally get to sleep OK, but wake up after 3-4 hours literally every night. On good nights I'll get a "2nd sleep" from maybe 4 to 6 AM for a total of 5-6 hours. I've tried all the drugs: Ambien CR (extended release) works well, but it's too easy to get hooked on it. These days I'll use it for a night or two when I absolutely HAVE to sleep, but expect some nasty rebound insomnia for a day or two after I stop. Gabapentin (300 mg for me) also works, but the effectiveness fades after a couple of weeks. Various pot derivatives don't do much for me. 

The best I've managed is to try not to stress about not sleeping (only makes it worse). When I wake up I read and relax in bed. Usually 2nd sleep eventually comes, and if not at least relaxed reading is a lot more pleasant than tossing and turning.


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## celswick (Mar 5, 2020)

I have insomnia but it’s not something I stay up all night worrying about. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Noddinggod (Apr 5, 2021)

Stay up for a few weeks and you might worry. Especially if you have to work or drive. That and I look like a hollow junky. Purple sunken eyes.


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## Artimus13 (Apr 10, 2021)

Noddinggod said:


> Stay up for a few weeks and you might worry. Especially if you have to work or drive. That and I look like a hollow junky. Purple sunken eyes.


Noddinggod I have been where you are, empty hollow feeling, loosing consciousness at work and being driven home by co-workers. Crying at work, at home, at docs offfice. I tried all the things, every herb and supplement. Ambien worked to take edge off but I wont take for more than a week. Now the good news! There is hope I am free of it mostly only comes back now and then. No coffee after 10am blue blocking glasses religiously until lights are off, I got rid of all led light bulbs in my house. Probably the biggest help though for me is Gaba calm lozenges at bed time. they really help settle the anxiety you feel lying down to sleep and knowing you won't sleep.I keep them on my nightstand always and they work in about 30 minutes. I find the 75mg lozenge works best for me but they come in a 750mg capsule as well. I wish you the best!


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## Noddinggod (Apr 5, 2021)

Artimus13 said:


> Noddinggod I have been where you are, empty hollow feeling, loosing consciousness at work and being driven home by co-workers. Crying at work, at home, at docs offfice. I tried all the things, every herb and supplement. Ambien worked to take edge off but I wont take for more than a week. Now the good news! There is hope I am free of it mostly only comes back now and then. No coffee after 10am blue blocking glasses religiously until lights are off, I got rid of all led light bulbs in my house. Probably the biggest help though for me is Gaba calm lozenges at bed time. they really help settle the anxiety you feel lying down to sleep and knowing you won't sleep.I keep them on my nightstand always and they work in about 30 minutes. I find the 75mg lozenge works best for me but they come in a 750mg capsule as well. I wish you the best!


Thank you! I will look into those losenges. I would have better luck with the lottery than getting a doctor to write but I'll try.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

raleigh.amyr226 said:


> We all are unique so the different treatment are helpful, I suppose.


Melatonin supplements and my body is do not agree. I get the feeling sleepy during the day side effect. I have taken it and continue to wake up and stay up.

If I wake and cannot return to sleep I try some stuff-reading stretching, anything that makes me sleepy. Works most of the time. Nothing will prevent waking too early if I have something nagging on my mind either lingering or upcoming.

Wacky dreams too.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Have you tried changing diet or lifestyle/excercise etc?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

Late the the party here. I read this book last year, found it to be an interesting read and some of the ideas helped me, especially around keeping a consistent sleep schedule and closing down a racing mind. (I listened to it on audiobook while riding my bike!).

Why We Sleep | Book by Matthew Walker | Official Publisher Page | Simon & Schuster (simonandschuster.com)


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## ehayes (Jun 25, 2019)

Some additional supplements (besides melatonin ) recommended to me by my GP for sleep issues are:

phosphatidylserine 
motherwort tincture
L-Theanine
Gaba

Most of the above are to calm down an active mind.

If legal in your area, cannabis works too - a small edible prior to bed really helps


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

ehayes said:


> Some additional supplements (besides melatonin ) recommended to me by my GP for sleep issues are:
> 
> phosphatidylserine
> motherwort tincture
> ...


I never tought about it but if i try a realy small edible should i take it an hour earlier?
It is legal here but i will only take some if there is a benefit.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Most people only need (from studies and personal experience) 1mg or less of melatonin. Taking more can have the exact opposite of desired effects. This is something to be mindful of as most melatonin containing products contain 3-5mg per dose. Anything over 1.5mg can give me the racing mind, restless sleep, headache and groggy the following day. About 0.8-1mg under my tongue 1/2 hour before bed works exceedingly well about 98% of the nights I use it. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Another option as a maybe. Dr. Berg's Sleep formula. No Melatonin, but works nicely. Not a cure.

I am not his salesman or employed by him-just an uTube follower of his. I bought/used one bottle on Amazon.

*Dr. Berg Sleep Aid Vegan Formula - All-Natural Support for Normal Sleep Cycles to Fight Fatigue & Aid Stress - Best Non-Habit-Forming Supplements (1 Pack)*
Visit the Dr. Berg's Nutritionals Store
3.9 out of 5 stars 1,374 ratings

| 26 answered questions


List Price:$34.95 DetailsPrice:$26.64 ($0.89 / Count)


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## RideVT (Aug 24, 2018)

Anyone who is having sleep issues that don't resolve with the usual habit/hygiene recommendations should, imho, *go to a sleep specialist.* Not a GP; someone who will monitor your sleep overnight and do a full medical workup.

It's funny, some of the framing of "pill habits" and the reluctance to rely on regular medication generally. Obviously, caution/reluctance around meds with addictive properties and nuisance side effects makes perfect sense. But there are some "pills" that are lifesaving and life-changing and for which it makes sense to rely upon. Anti-seizure medication, for example, or heart medication, etc., etc.

A consistent inability to get an adequate amount of sleep is an urgent health issue.

I take pramipexole every night before I sleep, because I literally can't get to sleep without it. My doctor and I followed the normal algorithm for my diagnosis (restless leg syndrome, which is a _very stupid_ name for a really debilitating disorder), starting with the most obvious/least invasive solutions. (Yes, yes, I've tried EVERY. SINGLE. remedy that you can think of or google; nothing helped. Nothing). We eventually found that the pramipexole works, and it never occurred to me to resist the solution because it comes in pill form. The issue is neurological and no home remedies or changes in diet or lifestyle are going to change that. I'm just so grateful that there IS a solution.

Anyway, not judging anyone's decisions about how to confront a pernicious issue, just find the reluctance to embrace solutions that come in pill form interesting, overgeneralized, and sometimes inconsistent.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

Another sleep deprived sufferer here. I've had issues my entire adult life. I'm a worry wart so I have trouble turning my mind off at bed time. I go through periods where I sleep for long enough and then periods where I suffer, waking up in the middle of the night and not being able to fall asleep again. 

I've tried the Benadryl types of sleep aids. These work but you must, must, must take them no later than 8pm (which means you need to be in bed by 9pm) otherwise you will feel groggy in the morning. The effects are long lasting with this med.

I occasionally take melatonin, 5mg. It helps. 

I also occasionally take Ambien. It helps as well but your body will develop a resistance to it (habit forming) so I only take it for a few day stretch to break up a bad sleeping pattern.

THC helps, too. 

I do take any sleep aid day after day. I only use them to "correct" a bad sleeping pattern. That said, I still suffer to a degree. My body does not want to sleep more than 5-6 hours, no matter what. It's the quality of the sleep during that period that makes or breaks the next day. 

Others here have already stated the "what not to dos".


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## hdave (Feb 9, 2005)

Hawgzilla said:


> THC helps, too.


AMEN to THC. THC and Melatonin and I am dreaming till sunrise. Lifelong insomniac till this combo. sleep studies are ridiculous, I sleep more poorly in a strange place, so I am to sleep in a hospital room hooked up to all kinds of monitors??? like thats gonna happen. I tried discussing this and asked "if i dont sleep or sleep enough to get a decent result then what?" they said then it would need to be repeated at $1000 a test out of pocket. BS. I did see an ENT and had some nose and throat issues fixed (deviated septum, large tonsils and such. that helped and stopped my snoring.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Some thoughts/findings.
-Circadian rhythm (personalized) is a big player. I.e it can be reset, and is affected by “the norms of society”. Meaning the late news is not a signal to go to bed and sleep. I go with my body signaling me. Having to get up and pee (not always a prostate or leaky bladder problem) or drink water are players too. Sometimes a habit or dietary change make a difference to those issues. (for me, drink alcohol after 6, means up a bunch of times). It has taken me 8 months so far to stop the 0200 wake up and staying awake crap.

-Sleep specialists and their advice is hit or miss and expensive. A specialist tried to convince my wife she had sleep apnea. Or a deviated septum, which she did, all her life, in her case was not that bad. Setting her up for CPAP etc. Wrong. Lost 20 lbs. and all was normal. CPAP on her face would have “wrecked Her”. She hates having her nose or mouth covered in any way while asleep, even by a few stands of her own hair.

-Oh and if I can’t turn my brain off at 0200, I decide what is a control or non control issue. I then either address stuff right away or defer to later.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

This is just my experience. I know it was written before but some times repetition helps.
I recently moved and pouf, i sleep better.
It might be a better mattress but my guess is the no TV is the big help.
Hopefully you find what works for you.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

One other idea is noise. I get a startle reaction to sharp sounds or sounds that I am not expecting.
Noise that makes me annoyed-barking dog, dripping water, neighbors party late night, HVAC cycling. {Figure out your own annoyances}

This stuff usually wakes me up.

White noise generator helps. Some of the white noise apps are not great.

My go to.


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## hdave (Feb 9, 2005)

EKram said:


> White noise generator helps.


these are odd thing IMO. My daughter has one and used it while we stayed with her. took me a night or two to adjust to it - reminded me of running water kinda which startled me awake a couple times.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

@hdave . Why does your daughter have one of these?

Whatever the reason maybe the sound it was trying to blend out, penetrated and caused you to wake.

Best wishes.


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## hdave (Feb 9, 2005)

EKram said:


> Why does your daughter have one of these?


She uses it so guest can have privacy to chat. she owns a small old house.


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## paul80 (Jun 14, 2021)

acer66 said:


> I dealt with prolonged severe insomnia at times and one thing which helped me is not trying to go to sleep and keep myself busy until I am tired.
> If I now wake up during the night I listen to podcasts until I fall asleep.


I have had insomnia for many weeks, my work and spirit have been extremely affected. I have tried many different ways to get to sleep. Luckily my friend suggested listening to a relaxing playlist. I fell asleep after listening to that playlist. Thanks to Richard for helping me improve my sleep. The playlists that I've been playing recently are: https://bit.ly/3iBscJp


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## mt24 (Nov 11, 2021)

Hi All, nothing helps me better after biking than listening relaxing music, nature sounds (like ocean waves), or doing meditation. I'm usually goes to YouTube and plug video on my phone. I do not like to use actual videos and instead videos with just static image or black screen. You can search YTB for such videos. I love to use one channel that runs without ads (ads are interrupting). I loop videos and enjoy. here is the channel I've used all the time. Not sure if admins allows links here.channel


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

mt24 said:


> Hi All, nothing helps me better after biking than listening relaxing music, nature sounds (like ocean waves), or doing meditation. I'm usually goes to YouTube and plug video on my phone. I do not like to use actual videos and instead videos with just static image or black screen. You can search YTB for such videos. I love to use one channel that runs without ads (ads are interrupting). I loop videos and enjoy. here is the channel I've used all the time. Not sure if admins allows links here.channel


Meditation, my ass! You are dreaming of that next ride and hitting something you have been wanting to and never done!
Some would call it plotting...


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

hdave said:


> AMEN to THC. THC and Melatonin and I am dreaming till sunrise.  Lifelong insomniac till this combo. sleep studies are ridiculous, I sleep more poorly in a strange place, so I am to sleep in a hospital room hooked up to all kinds of monitors??? like thats gonna happen. I tried discussing this and asked "if i dont sleep or sleep enough to get a decent result then what?" they said then it would need to be repeated at $1000 a test out of pocket. BS. I did see an ENT and had some nose and throat issues fixed (deviated septum, large tonsils and such. that helped and stopped my snoring.


10000%. Indica specific edible with CBN and you’ll sleep like never before. I am NOT a fan of artificial melatonin as the more you take the less your body makes.


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## Xylx (Mar 18, 2005)

Brules said:


> 10000%. Indica specific edible with CBN and you’ll sleep like never before. I am NOT a fan of artificial melatonin as the more you take the less your body makes.


Agree on indica and melatonin completely. There has been a lot of press lately on CBN for sleep. So I got some gummies that were recommended. Gummies with 25mg CBD and 5 mg CBN. First night nothing. Had to supplement with my usual Xanax and Lunesta cocktail. Second night I took two gummies, nothing. In fact I felt like it was keeping me from sleeping. Best sleep I get is from indica specific edible with a small portion of CBD. I take one edible and a Lunesta. The Lunesta puts me down and the edible keeps me down. Will have to try a similar indica with CBN instead.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Xylx said:


> Agree on indica and melatonin completely. There has been a lot of press lately on CBN for sleep. So I got some gummies that were recommended. Gummies with 25mg CBD and 5 mg CBN. First night nothing. Had to supplement with my usual Xanax and Lunesta cocktail. Second night I took two gummies, nothing. In fact I felt like it was keeping me from sleeping. Best sleep I get is from indica specific edible with a small portion of CBD. I take one edible and a Lunesta. The Lunesta puts me down and the edible keeps me down. Will have to try a similar indica with CBN instead.


Xanax is a definitive no go for this one. That is a nasty substance, this cat will not purr for under any circumstance.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

BobKellman31 said:


> The most common causes are stress, anxiety, or depression. You may suffer from any of this without knowing. Have you tried taking relaxing pills?


 Holy zombie thread!


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