# Clear coat only on steel??



## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Hi I have just spent several days of removing paint of an old steel frame, and after all that work its totally paint free and I found no rust. 

I soaked the whole frame in oil to protect it from rust and to be honest it looks quite cool without paint. So now I wonder if I can coat it with only clear coat to preserve the look.

I have been reading up on frame painting and usually its recommended to first prime it with some etching primer (and I have found a store that sells that) the second step is a "high build" epoxy, and then there are several ways to finish it: 

either with another epoxy color, and polyurethane or acrylic urethane clear

polyurethane or acylic urethane color and a clear.

I was thinking like this, epoxy is glue right and epoxy glue can be found in clear I think, so is there clear epoxy paint???

I think this would look cool, etch primer, clear epoxy on that and then clear polyurethane as a clear coat.

So the question is; 

will it work? 
Does clear non yellowing in the sun epoxy paint even exist?
If not can I brush on clear epoxy glue as my "primer"?


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

http://www.powderbuythepound.com/Clears-c-331/

You can get clear powder coat.

Tim


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

I don't have any powercoating gear.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Personally I like a splash of color on a steel bike but to each his own. 

I recently painted a frame and after the experience my view is that like most things you should only proceed if you have the proper tools.

For me, spray paint from cans seems like bad math with lots of effort for very poor results. I did primer followed by paint and wet sanding. The job looked okay at first but the paint was not nearly as durable as a professional job and required a so much effort that it really was not any cheaper. With my limited sample side of two home spray paint jobs I feel that it just is not possible to produce good results.

My advice is proceed with paint only if you have proper equipment and proper safety gear. If you don't already have the gear, think hard about the costs vs. finding a local paint shop that can do the work for you. Long term I would love to have a powder gun and oven in my home shop but it is expensive to gear up so this is way down the road.

Look around your area, you can probably find a guy who does paint for cars. In my case, I have a local shop that is repainting my frame at a very good price. They are doing my frame in green with clear powder.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

You can use a clear epoxy. They don't really make anything like that for auto paint being that most of it gets topcoated. Probably look for sources related to boat building.

Real issues are that epoxy rarely has UV additives and is not very resistant to degradation from sunlight. It won't last long without turning yellow. 

Urethane clears are NOT meant for direct to metal application. They will allow rust to form underneath and depending on where you live, maybe in just a couple of months. 

Best bet if you want the raw look is just to have it clear powdered. That is the toughest, most durable clear only coating.


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

dbohemian said:


> You can use a clear epoxy. They don't really make anything like that for auto paint being that most of it gets topcoated. Probably look for sources related to boat building.
> 
> Real issues are that epoxy rarely has UV additives and is not very resistant to degradation from sunlight. It won't last long without turning yellow.
> 
> ...


 Hey Dave, Question for you; I've had a frame clear powdercoated and it developed 'spider rust' under the clear. I could easily believe that it was poor prep on that powdercoaters part and I have'nt done it since (and also changed powdercoaters). Is there a surface prep/treatment that you know about other than a good bead blasting that will help keep this from happening?

Thanks.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

j-ro said:


> Hey Dave, Question for you; I've had a frame clear powdercoated and it developed 'spider rust' under the clear. I could easily believe that it was poor prep on that powdercoaters part and I have'nt done it since (and also changed powdercoaters). Is there a surface prep/treatment that you know about other than a good bead blasting that will help keep this from happening?
> 
> Thanks.


Sadly, this is just a property of powders, or at least single stage powders. They make powdered epoxy primers that can be applied under your color coat but not many powder places do this.

There are some metal pre-treatments or conversion coatings that can help. Most are very industrial though and not sold at normal auto painting places. You would also have to investigate whether they would work with your products. Some can cause a lack of adhesion with certain chemistries.

It is very possible to breach the surface of a powder and then have moisture literally run under the surface unimpeded as the powder really just encapsulates the tubing. A zinc rich epoxy primer can stop this even with a breach through all the layers. This is why a powder is typically not as corrosion resistant as a wet job with an epoxy primer but then again you can ask for that to be added to your work and it will make it every bit as corrosion resistant as the wet job. The only other downside is twice the build thickness which can be significant with powder.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

I have good equipment, for wet, good wet paint is even more durable than powder. I'm not considering a rattle can job.

I was thinking primer: etch
Base coat/color/primer: (1 coat not 3 different) clear epoxy
Top coat: polyurethane

Its supposed to be done right, etch primer, color, clear. Only difference is I want the "color" to be clear too so etch, clear epoxy, clear poly. I know "clear only" on steel is indoor only, seen it a 1000 times. But I want to do 3 layers the right way but the 2 top ones clear. Please tell me this is doable.



j-ro my frame was poor finished too, firstly it looked like an orange peel, and when I stripped it I found out it was only a (probably) epoxy primer powder, and a polyurethane top color powder, real ***** to strip. No real protection down under (zinc/etch) so I made a good desicion to strip it since its was a hack job.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Yeah just wanted to add I really want to do a bottom layer of etch primer since it passivates the steel, it works like prerusting it but its not the same type of oxidation that flakes off, at least I heard it works like this, otherwise I have zinc primer and this is galvanic action, but its light gray and then I can just as well give it a color since the raw color will be gone anyway.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

car bone said:


> Yeah just wanted to add I really want to do a bottom layer of etch primer since it passivates the steel, it works like prerusting it but its not the same type of oxidation that flakes off, at least I heard it works like this, otherwise I have zinc primer and this is galvanic action, but its light gray and then I can just as well give it a color since the raw color will be gone anyway.


Car-Bone,

I am still not sure exactly how you wish to accomplish this. Let me clarify and this may be something best discussed on a painting specific website. Once again, 20 painters, 20 opinions the same with framebuilders.

First, there is no passivation of carbon steels. Passivation refers to the removal of excess iron from the surface of stainless steel and cannot be used on non-stainless steels. Second, etch primer is dead. Essentially etch primer is a lacquer base with phosphoric acid to eat into the surface and create a good bond. Except for a few weird circumstances acid etch is no longer used. Epoxies have supplanted this technology long ago and I do not know of a single top notch frame painter still using it. Ask yourself why you would want to place epoxies and urethanes on top of a lacquer? You don't and that is why nobody of any repute uses it anymore. Proper preparation of the substrate is superior to relying on an acid to accomplish you metal profile.

Lastly, I do not know of a clear zinc rich epoxy primer. so in my mind you will just have a bike with clearcoated primer (with a clear epoxy in the middle?) That is where I am missing it. I don't know if anyone can help you with this, I have never done it nor have I seen it done so you might have to just do it and report back. I have seen people do faux raw finish that is the full paint system but that seems like more work than it's worth.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Hi dave!

I thought the etch primer would actually do "something chemical" to prevent rust but if that aint so its out, I can get good adhesion, thats not a problem (its already have loads of adhesion since its sand blasted underneath for the bake on crap to stick), I'm very very good regarding getting a finish on stuff (the underlaying work). I'm almost surgical with a sander and I have lots of experience and I don't take short cuts and definitely not with my own stuff.

Ok so etch is out.

From what info I have gathered the regular epoxy primers for steel actually have some type of corrosion inhibiting chemicals and I'm 1000% certain no clear epoxy will have that because it will not be clear with those chemicals inside.

The frame will not be clear...  impossible if its going to be durable and corrosion proof....
DAMN!

I don't know if it was a good idea but at least it was an idea. I guess I can keep dreaming.




Colors...

I know how to get the most durable paint on steel if etch is out, I think.

Durable againt blows- Prime as thin as possible with some epoxy primer, then polyurethane color as thin as possible, then poly clear, as this as possible. Apparently the interlaminary bond/adhesion is the most important thing (sanding between layers) and secondly how thin it is, so it can bend with the steel, instead of just being too thick and flaking off as soon as the steel bends.

Thing is I want corrosion rsistant too, would zinc epoxy primer be the key here??

Would zinc epoxy - poly color (or urethane acrylic color) - poly clear be a good way to get durability and corrosion resistance?

I dont like half assed paint jobs (because you need to re-do them = twice the work = I don't like) so I rather just do it right the first time around.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

You're right dave the zinc epoxy is not clear, its light gray, there is no way to make zinc translucent, and there is powderd zinc in the paint.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I haven't heard of a bad report of Spectrums' clear powder over raw. They won't warranty it, but they're still the only people I use for such a finish.

Can't see the point of messing around for days and days on something that may or may not work, when you can just send it to them, flip them a hundred bucks or so and be done with it.


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

Thanks Dave, lots of good info there.

Your comment about faux finishes got me thinking about a house I saw down on the coast, it was painted with Cor-ten paint and had gone to rust. Wouldn't that be fun on a bike?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

You obviously don't do your own laundry.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

I'm all for do it your self. But some times you have to out source. If you want a clear finish and the only way to get it is powder coat. Go with the powder.You'll be much happier in the long run.

Tim


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

Thylacine said:


> You obviously don't do your own laundry.


I didn't think about it rubbing off. Doesn't matter though, just has to look cool


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

What about a "gun coat finish"? Seems that it could be very minimalistic and still provide superior rust protection.


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## jpeters (Nov 19, 2010)

I am a auto painter and I know you can clear aluminum without primer just use a adhesion promoter not sure about steal. I do know the worst thing you can do to something you want to paint is soak it in oil. I would say order a can off bulldog and try a test spot make sure you clean all of the oil off with wax and grease remover. No oil based cleaners oil is the main cause of fish eye. Worse comes to worse is you need to strip it and do it again. Make sure you apply thin layers of bulldog and clear don't rush.

http://www.handsontools.com/Klean-S...on-Promoter-15-oz-Net-Wt-Aerosol_p_10361.html


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

I'm leaving the oil until I have sanded it, because thats going to take a while. I have solvents to clean it.

What gun cote finish Yogii? Something like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_vapor_deposition

Or maybe the Glock finish?


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

I found another method of protecting the steel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkerizing
Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_plating


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

No something like this. Another form of Parkerizing: 
http://twentynineinches.com/2010/09/07/gun-kote-frame-coating-final-review/
or this

http://www.ceramikoat.com/pics/products/stdcolors/colors.html


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## sonic reducer (Apr 12, 2010)

one thing i will say about clear coating bare steel is that it needs to be super clean and not handled with bare hands. acetone or alcohol. a few years ago i did a motorcycle tank with clear that some rust fingerprints showed up in the metal later.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

The 'gun finishes' won't last in general. Gun are wiped with oil. Those finishes offer a larger window b/t cleaning oiling and some provide a bit of lubrication to slides, etc.

I have had 100% perfect results with Tiger Drylac Series 49 clear powder. Sandblast, then Scotchbrite and clean with alcohol and paper towels, hit with tack cloth and apply powder.

I ride in the Rockies... not a rain forest, but certainly not the desert either. I sweat like a pig going to slaughter. I clean my bikes once a year. No rust....It seems plenty durable to me. I did switch to using stainless cable stops up front to prevent rust starting where the housing ends rub. I also do my own masking to prevent someone at the pc'ers from getting their hands all over the tubes.

-Schmitty-


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## CBookman (Sep 9, 2008)

Schmitty said:


> The 'gun finishes' won't last in general. Gun are wiped with oil. Those finishes offer a larger window b/t cleaning oiling and some provide a bit of lubrication to slides, etc.
> 
> -Schmitty-


I don't think blueing or parkerizing are going to work, but epoxy coats like gun kote, duracoat, or the ceramikoat mentioned would do a good job of protecting the steel, much the same as a powder would. I'm considering doing a road bike in duracoat for my brother to provide a non flashy finish that will last and protect the steel.


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## Coldass (Nov 23, 2005)

This is what you want:
Glisten PC

http://www.por15.com/GLISTEN-PC/productinfo/GPCGG/


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Coldass said:


> This is what you want:
> Glisten PC
> 
> http://www.por15.com/GLISTEN-PC/productinfo/GPCGG/


After all of this we come back to the powder coat. Schmitty is right. The clear powder for this effect is the way to go (and this is from a professional painter)

BTW, that POR stuff is el garbago. Sure it works (barely) but will offer nothing that other 2 pack clears don't. Consumer grade shite at best. Sorry, but POR anything is a scam perpetrated on the DIY'er to make them think everything is easy. Oh...just cover that rust, you know if you don't see it, its not there.


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## jpeters (Nov 19, 2010)

dbohemian said:


> After all of this we come back to the powder coat. Schmitty is right. The clear powder for this effect is the way to go (and this is from a professional painter)
> 
> BTW, that POR stuff is el garbago. Sure it works (barely) but will offer nothing that other 2 pack clears don't. Consumer grade shite at best. Sorry, but POR anything is a scam perpetrated on the DIY'er to make them think everything is easy. Oh...just cover that rust, you know if you don't see it, its not there.


Lol yeah I had a friend who used that stuff on a truck frame and it did nothing but make a mess and the rust came back.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Rust must be mechanically removed.

I have decieded to go with a gray epoxy zinc primer.
And top it off with a polyurethane black.

So if nobody have any objections this is what it will be.

I will apply these with a broom  No of course not, but almost, with a brush.
Why a brush? Because the crappier the bike looks the less likely it is for someone to notice it and steal it. Theft protection, hiding it in plain sight. I mean, would you steal a hand painted (obviously bad made) black bike?


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## Coldass (Nov 23, 2005)

dbohemian said:


> After all of this we come back to the powder coat. Schmitty is right. The clear powder for this effect is the way to go (and this is from a professional painter)
> 
> BTW, that POR stuff is el garbago. Sure it works (barely) but will offer nothing that other 2 pack clears don't. Consumer grade shite at best. Sorry, but POR anything is a scam perpetrated on the DIY'er to make them think everything is easy. Oh...just cover that rust, you know if you don't see it, its not there.


Wow - I am surprised by the closed nature of your response and experience. One thing to state your experience and opinion, and I would be interested in that, but another to cry scam - one business to another. You better be able to prove that - or do you have an agenda to harm their business or did they wrong you?

Imagine if someone posted here that 'your' products and brand were a scam without providing evidence beyond their opinion - how would you feel?

(I have no association with them just have to call you on this because IMO you crossed the line).

Anyway, my experience is not like yours. I have used Glisten PC to great effect in kayaking over ten-years (not rust prevention or cover). I found it has stood up to some significant ocean crossings (a week off land, numerous rock landings etc..) and I have a 5.3m carbon boat right now coated in the product and it's nude finish is doing better than I could hope for than using a quality 2-pack or top-coat.

So my opinion is that I wouldn't say it is a crap product as I know it has met my needs (and many others needs) for a different application and provided value - are you saying I'm wrong?

Anyway, I doubt it would be poor value for one frame (and this is far from a trade use - very much 'consumer' at that volume). I believe applied correctly it would work well on a nude frame.

I'd love to see the nude frames you have coated with Glisten PC as I am interested to give it a try, and don't want to waste my time, and I don't want to deal with scams (I am aware of those Nigerian schemes - but stunned this extends to top coat products), but not if I can see how others have gone.


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## mitzikatzi (Sep 9, 2008)

car bone said:


> Rust must be mechanically removed.
> 
> I have decieded to go with a gray epoxy zinc primer.
> And top it off with a polyurethane black.
> ...


People like to steal black bikes because they blend in. A Fluro orange (insert bright color) bike really sticks out and will be noticed by the public and remembered. Not what a thief would want IMHO. Paint you bike badly in a really bright color.


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

I'll list a few advantages Ceramikoat protective finish has over anodize, paint, and powder-coat. * Mechanically bonds with the substrate * superior resistance to abrasion * non-stick, easily cleaned * will not fade, chip, flake, or peel * non reactive to uv light and chemicals * adds a fraction of the weight of other finishes. Ideal protection for steel, rust will not form between finish and surface. Option with ceramic Clear-coat of any sheen from matte to high gloss.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I've found that there is a huge variation between the quality of ceramic coatings, with Cerakote from NIC Industries being the best. What brands do you use?

Also of note, that the prep for ceramic coating is super critical. One of our suppliers got lazy with their media blasting and it got contaminated with microscopic rust particles and those frames did indeed rust under the coating.

Have you done the clear versions straight onto a steel frame before?


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Guns get babied. No matter how many ads you see of an armed dude creeping through a swamp up to his eyeballs, the vast majority of guns spend their days in padded cases, on padded surfaces, and getting rubbed down with oil. The guns out in deserts of the middle east are only needed to work, not look good, or last very long for that matter... not a very good reason to use any of the new gun coatings on bikes.

-Schmitty-


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Schmitty said:


> Guns get babied. No matter how many ads you see of an armed dude creeping through a swamp up to his eyeballs, the vast majority of guns spend their days in padded cases, on padded surfaces, and getting rubbed down with oil. The guns out in deserts of the middle east are only needed to work, not look good, or last very long for that matter... not a very good reason to use any of the new gun coatings on bikes.
> 
> -Schmitty-


Points taken Schmitty. The ceramic coatings do hold a lot of promise though. They are tough, fairly easy to apply and very light (almost nothing).

Here is what my view on it is. People expect too much from coatings. I.e. if you hit something so hard you would have gouged metal itself you are of course going to gouge a coating unless it is some sort of vapor deposited craziness. Some of the downsides of ceramic coatings are that they have no appreciable thickness at all so they do not cover any flaws. The majority of frames could use a little help in that department. The colors are limited and although its tough stuff it is not adamantium. Also consider that if you are going so fast that atmospheric friction heats your frame up to 800c then your paint will still be fine if its ceramic.

I think this would be a wonderful coating where you want to have durability and keep coating thickness down. I.e. bike parts, handlebars etc. For cosmetics and ease of processing frames would probably do better with wet paint, powder coatings etc.


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

Thylacine said:


> I've found that there is a huge variation between the quality of ceramic coatings, with Cerakote from NIC Industries being the best. What brands do you use?
> 
> Also of note, that the prep for ceramic coating is super critical. One of our suppliers got lazy with their media blasting and it got contaminated with microscopic rust particles and those frames did indeed rust under the coating.
> 
> Have you done the clear versions straight onto a steel frame before?


I been applying NIC product since 2006 to various bike parts with outstanding results. Your correct that preparation is extra critical in the application of ceramic. There are no shortcuts to a quality finish no matter what medium your working. Rust is not possible when ceramic is properly applied. The reason, ceramic is a product of nano tech and bonds to the substrate molecularly rather than encapsulating like paint and powder.

schmitty......This coating is mil spec and has many applications other than firearms. It was developed by the aerospace and auto industries to protect surfaces that are exposed to the harshest environments imaginable. NASA, NASCAR, NHRA all have benefited from ceramic protective coatings.

dbohemian...........Very well said and exactly right. I have applied ceramic primarily to mtb drivetrain components with nothing but positive feedback. After 5 yrs of applying ceramic to parts I know from experience that it is a excellent finish for all bike components.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Are these the same coating found on airplane turnbine blades to keep them from melting?

The only negative seems to be the price, like 300 for a frame thats very expensive, you could get a real pro to do a really pro wet paint for that with 1000 colors. Or buy all the stuff you need to make it yourself, well some of it.

Does the coating need heat? Steel that is heat treated may or may not like that i don't know its just what I've heard, but they have been making bikes from regular steel tubes for 100 years (which are still around!) so maybe it doesn't matter.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

car bone said:


> Are these the same coating found on airplane turnbine blades to keep them from melting?
> 
> The only negative seems to be the price, like 300 for a frame thats very expensive, you could get a real pro to do a really pro wet paint for that with 1000 colors. Or buy all the stuff you need to make it yourself, well some of it.
> 
> Does the coating need heat? Steel that is heat treated may or may not like that i don't know its just what I've heard, but they have been making bikes from regular steel tubes for 100 years (which are still around!) so maybe it doesn't matter.


I will answer for him. No, they are not the same coatings as vapor deposited coatings that you are probably speaking of. Yes, they can handle the high temperatures of weapon barrels, no they cannot handle jet engine environments. 300 is not that expensive. Most professional bicycle painters are far north of 300 dollars. You paint, can you buy the raw material and do a good job sanding primer and clear at least one time each for 300 bills? (and I am not talking Dupont Nason or some such low end garbage like that)

The answer is not profitably which is where powder fills the void. Being that the labor is so much less it can be profitable at much lower pricing levels. Ceramic coats save on some labor but require good prep and they are not cheap. Also you need to factor in the heating of the oven that is necessary, so they split the difference.

It's not enough heat to affect steel bicycle tubing by any stretch.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

When I was at the store a few weeks ago, the most pro store we have here, they said it would cost about 100 for the epoxy, and about 100-120 for a "kit" with polyurethane, but adding colors to that when I already had the hardener and thinner was cheap, so for about 300 I could probably get 4 or so poly colors and the epoxy primer and a few 400/800/2000 papers. IIRC this was the best DuPunt stuff.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Carbone,

That sounds about right but realize you just spoke of 200 dollars. A pro has to make a profit from the materials too. Add in consumables, electricity, overhead, depreciation and then adding in what I have to get paid per hour and you can see that its hard to custom paint a bike for 300 with quality wet materials.

Powder on the other hand has all of these but can be done in an hour with 5 dollars worth of materials. Then you can begin to see how it can cost 100-150. I would also like to add there is no sanding with powder coating. I don't really call myself a painter.....I am a professional sander.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

dbohemian said:


> Carbone,
> 
> That sounds about right but realize you just spoke of 200 dollars. A pro has to make a profit from the materials too. Add in consumables, electricity, overhead, depreciation and then adding in what I have to get paid per hour and you can see that its hard to custom paint a bike for 300 with quality wet materials.
> 
> Powder on the other hand has all of these but can be done in an hour with 5 dollars worth of materials. Then you can begin to see how it can cost 100-150. I would also like to add there is no sanding with powder coating. I don't really call myself a painter.....I am a professional sander.


I have to confess I didn't think about it that way but you are right.

I'm lucky. My particular frame is sand blasted but it was done well so I think an hour (at most but probably something like 20minutes) with a 3M fine thin "gray sponge" will do the job. I just want it a bit smoother. Imo sand blasting is destructive and the tubes are aleady only about 0,5mm thin in some part so I feel sanding is better.


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

car bone said:


> Are these the same coating found on airplane turnbine blades to keep them from melting?
> 
> The only negative seems to be the price, like 300 for a frame thats very expensive, you could get a real pro to do a really pro wet paint for that with 1000 colors. Or buy all the stuff you need to make it yourself, well some of it.
> 
> Does the coating need heat? Steel that is heat treated may or may not like that i don't know its just what I've heard, but they have been making bikes from regular steel tubes for 100 years (which are still around!) so maybe it doesn't matter.


Contact us and I can resolve the only negative you have for not considering ceramic. I'll explain where ceramic outperforms all other finishes. To answer your questions, yes this is the coating used to protect blades of jet turbines, ceramic dry lubrication can be applied to all engine and transmission surfaces. The ceramic used on a frame cures dry low temp and will not effect the temper of metals.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

crazy8 said:


> yes this is the coating used to protect blades of jet turbines,


Sorry I am such a geek but these coatings are only partially similar to coating used in the compressor section of an aircraft engine. The combustion section and afterburner section use tungsten carbide and chrome carbides and a bunch of other nifty exotics. The compressor sections use a ceramic based slurry not too unlike a porcelain application.

They are very neat coatings but then again like the old materials argument (steel vs. ti. vs al vs. carbon) the best coating is the one that best matches the application parameters and ceramic would not always be optimal.

Then again, whether your coating can handle jet engine compressor wear may not translate into increased performance on your daily ride.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I've lost count of how many frames we've coated with Cerakote, and aside from one failure due to application error, they are everything they claim to be.

It's not the be-all-and-end-all, but if you want a utility coating that weighs nothing and is as tough as anything out there, it's hard to pass up for steel.

As Dave pointed out, ceramics are incredibly thin, so if your frame isn't surgical then every lump and bump is gunna be there for all to see.


Thy-TS-Complete02.jpg by Thylacine Cycles, on Flickr


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

crazy8 said:


> . The reason, ceramic is a product of nano tech and bonds to the substrate molecularly rather than encapsulating like paint and powder.
> 
> .


Say you wanted to do some additional welding or make a repair- how hard is it to take that coating off?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

You'd have to sand it off I suspect, or simply media blast it.

That frame above was the one that was rusted and had to be recoated, so I suspect it was simply re-blasted and recoated. 24 months in the tropics and no issues.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

crazy8 said:


> Contact us and I can resolve the only negative you have for not considering ceramic. I'll explain where ceramic outperforms all other finishes. To answer your questions, yes this is the coating used to protect blades of jet turbines, ceramic dry lubrication can be applied to all engine and transmission surfaces. The ceramic used on a frame cures dry low temp and will not effect the temper of metals.


I would love to in any other case than this, because it really sounds like a good idea compared to another powder coat (never ever gonna happen unless I somehow end up in the orange peel business) in this particular case I have to do everything myself to evolve as a human being. And also to gain the pleasure and satisfaction of knowing that I did it myself. This is important to me. It rides better then.


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

car bone said:


> I would love to in any other case than this, because it really sounds like a good idea compared to another powder coat (never ever gonna happen unless I somehow end up in the orange peel business) in this particular case I have to do everything myself to evolve as a human being. And also to gain the pleasure and satisfaction of knowing that I did it myself. This is important to me. It rides better then.


I can relate to that, and the bike will definitely ride better :thumbsup:


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

> s Dave pointed out, ceramics are incredibly thin, so if your frame isn't surgical then every lump and bump is gunna be there for all to see.


True, same as anodizing, or just clear. That is why brazed frames look better with the thin coats.


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## arrover (Mar 28, 2010)

When you paint a mountain bike frame, how much weight does it add? How about powder coat? Ceramic?


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

Ceramikoat applied to a med hard tail frame adds between 10~15g. I Googled looking for the weight of powder, 35~40g and paint, 60g.


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## arrover (Mar 28, 2010)

Thanks crazy8. A few people had mentioned weight and I wasn't sure if we were talking 50g, 150g, or what for a coating. Thanks.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Generally the less paint you use the better the durability. In industrial painting they almost always have target thickness, they measure this with magnets and stuff. So thin coats (light) are always preferable.


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## mitzikatzi (Sep 9, 2008)

nyalic this might work


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## biketourings (Aug 21, 2013)

There are a couple good options I know of but suggesting this one as this company's other products are known to work very well. I clear coated an old lugged steel Puch and though I live near the coast, salt water, humidity, etc. It's still looks very nice after a about a year and a half.
Clearcoats
Puch Bergmeister Brushed and Polished Steel Lugs, by Rideon - Bike Tourings


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## biketourings (Aug 21, 2013)

*Photo of Clear Coated Steel Frame*







Puch Bergmeister Brushed and Polished Steel Lugs, by Rideon - Bike Tourings


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## revanche (Jan 20, 2014)

Done a few, here's the sets.Mara's style cruiser. - a set on Flickr
29er - a set on Flickr
It's a glossy powdercoat, clear.


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## Testmule (Jul 27, 2013)

Going to weigh in here - probably because I feel an obligation to represent my craft.
I've been a car painter for 42 years and have seen pretty well everything. I have a Canadian Auto Collision Repair Certificate which is required in Canada to repair collision, but have spent most of my career painting. Am ICAR trained and a master level ASE repair tech. My latest training is with Glasurit paints from Germany which have been the factory supplier to MB, BMW ect.

Ok, so, from my knowledge, you can't put clear coat, whether it's powder, urethane, acrylic urethane, or any of the current products on the market over bare metal and expect to guarantee it for the life of the vehicle. And in my business we guarantee our work for as long as the vehicle is on the road.

I know that there are lots of people that will challenge me on this, but I think the only thing holding the clear on the bare steel bikes is gravity, and perhaps some mechanical adhesion from the fine sand scratches.

I'm not trying to picking a fight, so I hope I haven't offended anyone, and I'm going to call the Glasurit tech line tomorrow and find out if there are some procedures I'm not aware of.


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## biketourings (Aug 21, 2013)

Appreciate your input with valuable information. Interested in hearing what your tech reference has to say, Here's a link to a product you might find interesting though I haven't tried it myself, though automotive folks use products at this site. 
GLISTEN PC


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## bobbotron (Nov 28, 2007)

This thread needs more photos!  (Especially like here is this paint/coating job, and then again after x years of riding.)


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## Testmule (Jul 27, 2013)

biketourings said:


> Appreciate your input with valuable information. Interested in hearing what your tech reference has to say, Here's a link to a product you might find interesting though I haven't tried it myself, though automotive folks use products at this site.
> GLISTEN PC


POR does make great products. Years ago I used one of them to paint over a rusty stake for a sign and drove it into ground. Pulled it up after a few years and it was like new!

The ultra violet rays from sunlight break down paint, clear coats, and even people for that matter. Modern automotive clears contain ultraviolet filters chemically designed into their makeup, and this has something to do with the high costs - generally running into the hundreds of dollars for a single gallon with the catalyst. I'm not sure if the peripheral products contain the same engineering or chemical makeup.

Many custom bike painters are using high-end automotive paint products and are aware of all this.


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## canker (Jul 26, 2007)

How fast would it rust to the point it is a problem if you just left it raw and uncoated? A little surface rust never hurt anybody .


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## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

I've done some frames now with clear Ceramikote, Nyalic and I'll get a quart of POR Glisten PC and post some after, ageing, how they hold up pics. The frames are being blasted to have some mechanical adhesion.
This pic is the Nyalic one with the local bike shop name

cheers
andy walker
walker bicycle co
Walker Bicycle Company | | Walker Bicycle Company
Flickr: afwalker's Photostream


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

What about cerakote on aluminum frames? Is there special prep? I know a guy who cerakotes firearms and have been considering having him do my bike.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

canker said:


> How fast would it rust to the point it is a problem if you just left it raw and uncoated? A little surface rust never hurt anybody .


This subject comes up occasionally, and that technique is discussed in another thread. I haven't painted the 4130 rack on my commuter, and it isn't a ball of rust like you might think. It's probably not a great idea long-term, but for a couple of years it would probably be ok.

I have seen too many frames without paint to get excited about one that is clear coated over steel, but I was thinking about using gun black and having that clear powder coated. Got that idea on another forum. Since the gun black is an oxidation process, it might keep the rust from taking over under the powder.


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## FastBanana (Aug 29, 2013)

Having had several guns and knives done is ceramic (the oven baked kind), I can say that I think it would be ok for a bike depending on what you are looking for. Cerakote is durable, but thin. It also shows off pretty welds if you have a nice frame. Its very light too. However, its not a wonder product. My feild knife has much of it worn away. Granted, it will not chip, and it has seen some awful things, but its not impervious. I really like powder for bike applications. Its cheap, easy, and you can get very, very good results. 

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk


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## Testmule (Jul 27, 2013)

Testmule said:


> Going to weigh in here - probably because I feel an obligation to represent my craft.
> I've been a car painter for 42 years and have seen pretty well everything. I have a Canadian Auto Collision Repair Certificate which is required in Canada to repair collision, but have spent most of my career painting. Am ICAR trained and a master level ASE repair tech. My latest training is with Glasurit paints from Germany which have been the factory supplier to MB, BMW ect.
> 
> Ok, so, from my knowledge, you can't put clear coat, whether it's powder, urethane, acrylic urethane, or any of the current products on the market over bare metal and expect to guarantee it for the life of the vehicle. And in my business we guarantee our work for as long as the vehicle is on the road.
> ...


Have a follow up on my lengthy earlier post. From the Glasurit tech rep. "Cleaning the metal is essential prior to clear coating, and mechanical adhesion (sanding or filing) will be the fist line of defence in avoiding peeling or chipping." Glasurit has a metal prep #360-4, which he recommended to clean any impurities and lightly etch the metal.
Most metal preps have this capacity.

Aluminum automotive wheels have been clear coated for years, but in the Canadian rust belt where I live they only last about 5 years before corrosion and peeling start to show.

The tech rep went on the add that bicycle frames don't endure near the weathering that cars do, but it still isn't a recommended procedure that could be guaranteed.

From my perspective, I love the creativity in the bicycle industry, but from my relationship with paint I come from an industry that demands life time guarantees.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

Testmule said:


> From my perspective, I love the creativity in the bicycle industry, but from my relationship with paint I come from an industry that demands life time guarantees.


bicycle industry is not doing this, I don't think anyone will clear coat steel with any sort of guarantee. At least I hope not. It's more customer driven.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

As a guy that has spent a disproportionate amount of time making my brazing presentable. It's tough after making thumbs bleed, to only then cover it up. And I've explored a few clear options. And if you *_REALLY_* desire that look, well WD40 and emery are your friend. You'll never make up the investment in a "clear" coating vs. occasionally oiling down/scrubbing a bare steel frame. That said, I'd like to try a bluing type treatment sometime. Something of a happy medium between paint/powder and "bare."

I've a bare frame ridden in exclusively terrible conditions, and the biggest source of rust is really from my own sweaty ass. Most of the frame looks "patina'd," the seat stays where my shockingly awesome muscular calves make regular contact look like hell. But would still clean up with very little work to pure shiny steel.

Even steel made by the masters, has a definate lifespan. With modern steel that realistic lifespan, will likely outlive all but the most neglectful corrosion concerns.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2014)

To be honest, I think I'd just hit it with a couple coats of NuFinish 2000 or other synthetic car wax and maintain the finish with a new coat every couple months. I use those types of wax on my blued hunting rifles in bad weather and they hold up pretty well.


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