# Rear rack instead of seat pack



## sherpaxc (Aug 12, 2005)

So I've had a seat pack since the early days of Carousel Design Works and Epic (Revelate) designs. They have always been pretty good. Now we have droppers but I can't use the dropper because of the pack. I know there are dropper specific packs but they are much smaller in volume. I've been looking around on-line and seen a couple people still running racks. Do any of ya'll have any thoughts on this? I'm thinking a very minimal rack with a dry bag on the top. This would allow me to engage the dropper and really rip. 

My bikepacking is primarly singletrack. CTR, Oregon 3 rivers 3 sisters, etc...


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

I'm still a fan of a rear rack. I only use my seat bag when I am somehow prevented from having my rack, usually because I had to fly with or otherwise ship my bike, and I decided the rack took up too much space or was just unnecessary for that trip. But around home the rack is always on the bike.

But then my bike doesn't do much single track. It's primary job is getting me to work and back, so the rack is really useful there. Still, that's my preference. I use more bikepacking-specific bags for the front, frame, and sometimes the forks, but the back usually has the rack with my Ortleib Frontroller bags. There are certainly other, minimalist panniers out there as well.

It is heavier. I did a space to weight comparison on all my touring bags, and a sturdy rear rack with small panniers was one of the least efficient ways to carry gear. Still, I prefer a rear rack for the versatility, and I'm not generally concerned about the weight since the rack is always there, and I just figure on it as part of the bike base weight. But I also don't get to ride loaded down on much single track, so I don't have to worry about how panniers handle tight single track.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

sherpaxc said:


> So I've had a seat pack since the early days of Carousel Design Works and Epic (Revelate) designs. They have always been pretty good. Now we have droppers but I can't use the dropper because of the pack. I know there are dropper specific packs but they are much smaller in volume. I've been looking around on-line and seen a couple people still running racks. Do any of ya'll have any thoughts on this? I'm thinking a very minimal rack with a dry bag on the top. This would allow me to engage the dropper and really rip.
> 
> My bikepacking is primarly singletrack. CTR, Oregon 3 rivers 3 sisters, etc...


The only reason not to run a rack is if your frame can't accommodate one.


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## sherpaxc (Aug 12, 2005)

mikesee said:


> The only reason not to run a rack is if your frame can't accommodate one.


Mike, would you feel confidant running a rack with a dry bag (not panniers) on the CTR? I'm having Walt build me a frame and am seriously considering him putting in the bolts for it. Maybe a rack like this...Mini Pannier Rack - Tumbleweed Bicycle Co.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

sherpaxc said:


> Mike, would you feel confidant running a rack with a dry bag (not panniers) on the CTR? I'm having Walt build me a frame and am seriously considering him putting in the bolts for it.


Absolutely.

First time I rode the CTR was back in, um, '06 or so, and I used exactly that setup.

Didn't have a dropper yet tho -- just wanted to be able to haul overnight gear *and* ride FS.

I'd lean on Walt to just fab you up a simple rack himself while he's at it. No shortage of simple, good ideas out there:


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http://instagr.am/p/B2Rm7Fcl8_S/


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http://instagr.am/p/BxbWARUB_ca/


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http://instagr.am/p/Bwf_UZDlnVM/

And if Walt says no, send your Walt frame to Meriwether and have him make the rack.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Yup, small rear rack and small bags. One is sometimes empty, great for food or beer at the end of the day. Also works for fire wood and found chairs.


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## Dawgprimo (Mar 7, 2004)

I would agree the rack is a awesome option.
Those Meriwether frames/rack were very sweet and the Mini Pannier Rack is what I was looking for but never saw unfortunately .......I bought a Tubas rack which is pretty good, I think?
I will find out see this Summer!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Purpose built frames...


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## sherpaxc (Aug 12, 2005)

I don't really want a purpose built frame though. I only do 2 to 3 bikepacking trips a year. The Waltworks will be my every day singletrack bike. I'm all in to have the rack mounts installed. I see Vik had his bike built with the same idea. It is good to see some people out there with similar builds/mindset.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

If it’s not a FS bike, a rack works well, just heavier. 

Panniers do lower the center of gravity, can improve handling. Let’s you carry more, not always a good thing, but also cheaper as you don’t have to buy as much super lightweight and compact gear maybe. A rack as well as quality panniers that stay fastened in rough terrain may not be as cheap as a different arrangement of seat bag. 

Maybe allows a longer trip as you’ve got more storage room for food or water. Also works in shoulder season when you need more clothing to keep warm, or a warmer bag.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

sherpaxc said:


> Do any of ya'll have any thoughts on this? I'm thinking a very minimal rack with a dry bag on the top. This would allow me to engage the dropper and really rip.












I built up a bike recently and designed it to work with a rear rack. Being able to use my dropper is key. The rack has been used to haul full panniers [way too much] on dirt roads and singletrack without issue. So strapping a dry bag on top will be a very mild load for it.

I may also use small panniers on occasion as well since this bike will get used at home for more than just touring.


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## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

works for me in all kinds of situations.


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## alias (May 9, 2005)

+1 for rack and dry bag instead of seat bag. I have run both extensively and the rack is now permanent on both the fat bike and my touring 29er. 

Works just fine on any singletrack that you'd be comfortable riding with a seat bag set up.


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## sherpaxc (Aug 12, 2005)

It makes me wonder at what point people realize not being able to use the dropper on legit singletrack is a bummer and switch back to racks. Do rear racks become more mainstream again? 

Just a thought...


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

sherpaxc said:


> Do rear racks become more mainstream again?
> 
> Just a thought...


Racks are mainstream. That never changed. A few people [relative to the cyclists carrying stuff on their racks] started using bikepacking seatbags. Bikepacking seatbags have quite a few good points so they'll remain popular insofar as a niche is popular.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

you can do both a dropper and a full suspension bike
you just have to make the bag smaller
this one is built around a 1 L bot for rigidity and holds about 2 L


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

To keep the rack weight down I use a minimal Tubus Airy TI rack and Revelate Nano panniers and a small bag on top of the rack. Minimal difference between this setup and my large seatbag.








Article on Bikepacking about mini panniers
https://bikepacking.com/index/panniers-for-bikepacking/


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## SpeedyStein (Aug 2, 2014)

If using a rear rack, there are a lot of pretty decent trunk bags out there too - many waterproof. Might secure to the rack better than strapping a dry bag, and most have some compartments to help organize. I know, a little "commuter chic" but I've taken mine on some pretty wild rides on the way home from work! 

I also suggest securing the rear rack lower stays with both a screw and a nylock nut for good measure. Most frames I've seen - even many touring/commuting frames - do not have very much thread depth in the rack mount, which always made me nervous, especially if carrying heavy loads and/or going over rough terrain. When I was still portaging kids in in the rear baby seat (just around the neighborhood, no singletrack, haha!) I always made sure I had the rack installed with a bolt clear through the eyelet with a nut on the back to be sure, just for my own peace of mind. The last thing you want to happen is your rack to disconnect itself in the middle of nowhere - the odds of finding your missing hardware is probably slim to none. Would probably also be a good idea to carry a few extra M5/M6 bolts, now that I think about it, haha. 

Speaking of M5/M6 bolts - why are virtually ALL rear racks secured with M5 bolts? Wouldn't an M6 bolt be just a little better, give a little more peace of mind?


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

SpeedyStein said:


> If using a rear rack, there are a lot of pretty decent trunk bags out there too - many waterproof. Might secure to the rack better than strapping a dry bag, and most have some compartments to help organize. I know, a little "commuter chic" but I've taken mine on some pretty wild rides on the way home from work!
> 
> I also suggest securing the rear rack lower stays with both a screw and a nylock nut for good measure. Most frames I've seen - even many touring/commuting frames - do not have very much thread depth in the rack mount, which always made me nervous, especially if carrying heavy loads and/or going over rough terrain. When I was still portaging kids in in the rear baby seat (just around the neighborhood, no singletrack, haha!) I always made sure I had the rack installed with a bolt clear through the eyelet with a nut on the back to be sure, just for my own peace of mind. The last thing you want to happen is your rack to disconnect itself in the middle of nowhere - the odds of finding your missing hardware is probably slim to none. Would probably also be a good idea to carry a few extra M5/M6 bolts, now that I think about it, haha.
> 
> Speaking of M5/M6 bolts - why are virtually ALL rear racks secured with M5 bolts? Wouldn't an M6 bolt be just a little better, give a little more peace of mind?


Yeah, but M6 bolts are so much heavier!! You're right, it would probably be a bit safer, especially if carrying your kids back there! For the weights that bikepackers are likely to carry, I think M5 is plenty. I do think the nylock nut on the back is a great idea though.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

SpeedyStein said:


> Speaking of M5/M6 bolts - why are virtually ALL rear racks secured with M5 bolts? Wouldn't an M6 bolt be just a little better, give a little more peace of mind?


I've never broken a M5 rack bolt despite trying hard! As you make the fastener stronger you make it more likely you'll break a part of your bike [frame or rack] that is not as easily replaceable as a bolt.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I'm wondering how the racks with bags affect the ability to lift the bike over a grazing fence, a thing that occurs a lot on federal land in the west.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

bsieb said:


> I'm wondering how the racks with bags affect the ability to lift the bike over a grazing fence, a thing that occurs a lot on federal land in the west.


There *are* a lot of fences (and it's easy to understand why), but there seem to be an adequate number of walkovers, gates, and other devices by which you can pass without needing to go over the nekkid fence. At least that's my experience.

That aside, lifting any loaded bike over a fence is sort of a PITA. Can't say I've noticed a difference between ones with racks vs. ones with seat bags.


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## sherpaxc (Aug 12, 2005)

Anyone have a a good recommendation for a top loading dry bag on the back? Or, thoughts on those micro panniers by revelate? They look nice but I wonder how much of an issue weight distribution is on a set like that on narrow singletrack?


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

sherpaxc said:


> Anyone have a a good recommendation for a top loading dry bag on the back? Or, thoughts on those micro panniers by revelate? They look nice but I wonder how much of an issue weight distribution is on a set like that on narrow singletrack?


Porcelain Rocket makes the Microwave Panniers.

https://porcelainrocket.com/collections/store/products/microwave-panniers

I was thinking of getting a set, but I wouldn't go with panniers if I was riding singletrack.


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## sherpaxc (Aug 12, 2005)

The PR are bulkier than I would prefer. It seems like the Revelate are much slimmer.


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## Bikemusher (Jan 26, 2018)

I have those Revelate panniers on my OMM rack and it is my go-to! I've used a Revelate seat bag before but I like having my dropper and the multiple options the rack gives. Plus, way easier to get in and out of. Sure there is a weight penalty.... but it is minimal. I'm curious about those PR panniers but at that point, the bulk compared to the Revelate ones would start to be a hassle on singletrack. 2 thumbs up for the OMM w/ the Revelate panniers!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

sherpaxc said:


> The PR are bulkier than I would prefer. It seems like the Revelate are much slimmer.


PR panniers are 26L for a set vs. 13L for the Revelate panniers. Thing is I wouldn't bother with panniers to haul 13L. So if I am going with panniers I'd want the larger size.

I'm not going to use panniers on singletrack normally so bulk or weight in that context isn't an issue for me.

YMMV.


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## SpeedyStein (Aug 2, 2014)

vikb said:


> I've never broken a M5 rack bolt despite trying hard! As you make the fastener stronger you make it more likely you'll break a part of your bike [frame or rack] that is not as easily replaceable as a bolt.


Good point about breaking the frame/rack. Definitely a frame/rack specific limit. Not an engineer, but I know that different grade bolts have different shear strength characteristics. Most folks use stainless, but is there a better steel grade for shear strength?


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## SpeedyStein (Aug 2, 2014)

vikb said:


> Thing is I wouldn't bother with panniers to haul 13L. So if I am going with panniers I'd want the larger size.


That is my thought as well - that small of a load can be accommodated in many other ways better suited for riding trails.


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## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

mikesee said:


> There *are* a lot of fences ([URL="https://www.adventure-journal.com/2020/01/
> That aside, lifting any loaded bike over a fence is sort of a PITA. Can't say I've noticed a difference between ones with racks vs. ones with seat bags.


one of my trips, where I wanted to camp, had about 30 blowdowns the last mile to my spot. I was one tired puppy after that.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

bsieb said:


> I'm wondering how the racks with bags affect the ability to lift the bike over a grazing fence, a thing that occurs a lot on federal land in the west.


Dunno, how easy with attached saddle, bar and triangle bag ?. That stuffs harder to unfasten from the bike than a set of panniers that typically have faster release systems. Then you lift the unloaded bike over, then baggage. I would not be able to lift a loaded bike over a 4ft barbed wire fence. And why ?, go find a cattle guard


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

tim208 said:


> one of my trips, where I wanted to camp, had about 30 blowdowns the last mile to my spot. I was one tired puppy after that.


Good point, and always a possibility.

Also a good reminder to keep your bike/kit as light as possible. The trend (outside of most races) seems to be opposite that.


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm a big fan of the Revelate Micro Panniers. Zip access makes them great for the stuff you want more frequent access to. They are slim, so they don't get in the way on hike-a-bike, and they are really securely fastened so they don't bounce around. Oh, and they are super light.

That said, I only use them when traveling with my wife. When I'm traveling by myself I pack spartan enough to do without the extra volume.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Catmandoo said:


> Dunno, how easy with attached saddle, bar and triangle bag ?. That stuffs harder to unfasten from the bike than a set of panniers that typically have faster release systems. Then you lift the unloaded bike over, then baggage. I would not be able to lift a loaded bike over a 4ft barbed wire fence. And why ?, go find a cattle guard


Cattleguards are only on roads, I do quite a bit of bushwacking. I can lift my packed bike over a grazing fence. Many times I can slide it under, which seems problematic with panniers.


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## gmats (Apr 15, 2005)

Aloha. This is a great thread. I am wanting to do a rear rack mounted to my Specialized Fuse 27.5+ bike. I just don't know what will fit. Ideas? So far with my searches it seems everything is either touring, mountain or FAT. It looks like the Fuse doesn't have rack mount tabs either. I guess I can stuff.


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## Pedaldog (May 13, 2020)

bsieb said:


> Purpose built frames...


I'm in Love

What are those bikes and why are they not in my garage now?


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

Gmats: without brazons you are limited to axle mounted racks. Go check out Old Man Mountain.


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## Slbear (Sep 17, 2018)

I was looking at the PC Mr. Fusion, Revalate Spinelock and Bedrock Coconino because they were all touted to be more stable - less sway than other seat bags. I haven't ridden with more than a small tool seat bag, but wanted to get into bikepacking. A rack with a drybag could seem to fit as much and be more stable than even these. Is it just the lower weight that lures someone to a seat bag? I'm definitely a weight weenie when backpacking. Is the sway something to worry much about - especially if I'm not planning to do overly technical or speedy singletrack? I think I would take my time if I hit any tricky sections with all my gear.

I saw the Tumbleweed T-Rack used on the back on a Bikepacking video recently, and their Mini Pannier looks like another good option. They water bottle mounts on the stays I might actually use in SoCal. Just checked out the OMM and Tubus mentioned above. OMM looks beefier (and heavier), and Tubus has so many choices I'm not sure where to start.

The seat bags mentioned are all in the $170-ish price range. The Tumbleweed racks are $140-150, and the OMM more. This is a consideration, but I can spend a little to get something good on the first try. 

I have a 2018 Salsa Fargo 27.5x3 size Medium, but want to eventually get 29er wheels when I can afford them. I don't have much seat to tire clearance now. Suggestions welcomed.


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