# Doood....let's just talk about bikes.



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

You guys are killin me. Yes, ebike haters don't want ebikes on their trails. We get it. Can we somehow keep this forum on topic specifically about ebikes? Every thread here has the same arguments about trail access, noobs breaking down needing rescue, and how much many of you guys hate ebikes. Sifting through the same rhetoric makes this forum almost unusable. Is there anything we can do to solve this issue?

I found this forum a few months ago when I just started getting into cycling again after decades of hiatus. Why, because of an ebike. Now I ride as much as possible between work, honeydoos and endless Birthday parties and weekend get togethers. I freakin love it and want to talk and read about bikes all the time now. 

I loved my regular bike also(2012 nomad C)....Wich I sadly had to sell. Looking to pickup a newer regular bike again so I can use the tow method and ride with my non bike fanatic friends. This is a super awesome technique BTW one I would highly suggest you try if you can. 

Anyways you guys are a wealth of knowledge and I want to keep reading about your experiences and learn from the collective knowledge of this forum without hearing the same arguments repeatedly. Can't we just all get along and ride?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Phantastic79 said:


> You guys are killin me. Yes, ebike haters don't want ebikes on their trails. We get it. Can we somehow keep this forum on topic specifically about ebikes? Every thread here has the same arguments about trail access, noobs breaking down needing rescue, and how much many of you guys hate ebikes. Sifting through the same rhetoric makes this forum almost unusable. Is there anything we can do to solve this issue?
> 
> I found this forum a few months ago when I just started getting into cycling again after decades of hiatus. Why, because of an ebike. Now I ride as much as possible between work, honeydoos and endless Birthday parties and weekend get togethers. I freakin love it and want to talk and read about bikes all the time now.
> 
> ...


 It's not hate, just not legal where I ride. Can't ride my golf cart or my bike on the hiway either. You gong to tow your friends, do their legs not work? Solve the issue on a mt bike forum? Hmmm. Now it's not biking, it's tow biking? Tow riding? That would be so funny if it wasn't so sad, very sad. Prepare to duck and cover on that one, OP. Get along and ride, great. Not motor.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

There are whole other sections devoted to bikes on this forum. What in particular are you looking to talk about? Power? Battery life? Otherwise 99.99% of the conversations right now revolves around trail access and rightfully so since there seems to be a lot of confusion (IMO mainly due to emtb marketing) as to where emtbs can and should be ridden. Without a clear and cut direction as to the acceptability of emtbs on non-motorized MUT then the whole emtb movement is mute. As it stands right now, if all land managers were to go by the BLM's recommendations then they would not be allowed on some 99% of trails. Which basically relegate emtbs to road riding and anywhere else motorized bikes are allowed.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Phantastic79 said:


> Can't we just all get along and ride?


Sure. As long as you stay off the mountain bike trails with your moped 

Sorry...couldn't resist.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

If you have topics on ebikes outside of arguing that they are bicycles and should be allowed wherever bicycles are allowed, start a new thread. From what I've seen, those actually pretty much stay on topic.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Lemonaid said:


> There are whole other sections devoted to bikes on this forum. What in particular are you looking to talk about? Power? Battery life? Otherwise 99.99% of the conversations right now revolves around trail access and rightfully so since there seems to be a lot of confusion (IMO mainly due to emtb marketing) as to where emtbs can and should be ridden. Without a clear and cut direction as to the acceptability of emtbs on non-motorized MUT then the whole emtb movement is mute. As it stands right now, if all land managers were to go by the BLM's recommendations then they would not be allowed on some 99% of trails. Which basically relegate emtbs to road riding and anywhere else motorized bikes are allowed.


Someone started a thread on the specialized Kenevo and people were immediately shitting on it just for existing...why? It's just a turbo levo with more travel and perfectly legal as a bike according to several definitions. Sure there are trails that it's banned on, so don't ride it there. But almost all comments and probably OP just chose to criticize it without any discussion specific to the bike.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

chazpat said:


> If you have topics on ebikes outside of arguing that they are bicycles and should be allowed wherever bicycles are allowed, start a new thread. From what I've seen, those actually pretty much stay on topic.


I get the argument of them not being regular bikes and I'm not saying they are equal to human powered bikes. Im not necessarily even arguing they should be allowed wherever bicycles are allowed. I just want to read forum topics about ebikes that are not hijacked by access arguments constantly.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Phantastic79 said:


> Someone started a thread on the specialized Kenevo and people were immediately shitting on it just for existing...why? It's just a turbo levo with more travel and perfectly legal as a bike according to several definitions. Sure there are trails that it's banned on, so don't ride it there. But almost all comments and probably OP just chose to criticize it without any discussion specific to the bike.


No one ever claimed this was a safe space.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Nubster said:


> Sure. As long as you stay off the mountain bike trails with your moped
> 
> Sorry...couldn't resist.


I would bet that if I towed you to the top of a really long fireroad climb you might be riding down with a large grin in your face.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> No one ever claimed this was a safe space.


Haha....I like that. I don't expect to encounter safe spaces in real life.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

The Kenovo thread was about why folks who like e-bikes and want more access should be *terrified* of the direction that e-bikes are headed. If you want to get grandpa out for exercise, or you're injured and need a boost just to get out... there were already bikes for that. The Kenovo is for people who want to ride a motorcycle like vehicle on non-moto trails, full stop. And it's a logical development. But it's a death knell for access and it's well worth discussing why Specializing would want to go there (presumably because of short-term profits that would otherwise be lost to cheap Chinese knockoffs). 

-Walt


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Phantastic79 said:


> I would bet that if I towed you to the top of a really long fireroad climb you might be riding down with a large grin in your face.


I'd rather earn my smiles to be honest.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Phantastic79 said:


> I would bet that if I towed you to the top of a really long fireroad climb you might be riding down with a large grin in your face.


I'm having a hard time thinking of anything more embarrassing.



Nubster said:


> I'd rather earn my smiles to be honest.


Exactly the point that continues to be missed. It ain't supposed to be easy.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

leeboh said:


> It's not hate, just not legal where I ride. Can't ride my golf cart or my bike on the hiway either. You gong to tow your friends, do their legs not work? Solve the issue on a mt bike forum? Hmmm. Now it's not biking, it's tow biking? Tow riding? That would be so funny if it wasn't so sad, very sad. Prepare to duck and cover on that one, OP. Get along and ride, great. Not motor.


Yes. My friends' legs work. But unfortunately he is only a standard human. The kind that works full time and perhaps Gyms like once a week. They are not inhuman super heroes like you guys. His mortal lungs can sustain probably about 100' of an average fire road climb. After that he will pass out from exhaustion.

Now I know what the standard and very reasonable argument would be. Guys gotta earn it, start off small and eventually work his way up. You can Do it&#8230;yeah! Sure that is great. But I loosely base this off a skiing analogy. Can you imagine how hard it would be to learn how to Ski if you didn't have access to a ski lift? Sure you could just start off cross country skiing and then start slowly hiking higher and higher up the mountain for longer runs. You would build tons of endurance but your actual skiing skills would take forever to develop. Not to mention that the difficulty would weed out like 90%+ of potential new skiers. This may be good or bad depending on your perspective.

Back to my friend. So starting off on a random Saturday I get him to come on a morning bike ride with me. He rides the Ebike&#8230;with a retractable dog leash attached and we both climb up the fire road. Yes..he still has to pedal, probably like 30%ish the normal amount he would have to on a normal bike. I'm being towed on my Nomad and probably pedaling like 60% as much as I'd have to. We both make it to the top of the fire road enjoy the view and slowly descend down. Another hour of this and he's done for the day. We both have a great time and no one was hurt in the process, especially other MTBers. Now he likes it and wants to go out again. If I just came with a regular bike he would have passed out trying to climb the hill and would never try it with me again. Perhaps rightfully so since he didn't work his way up and earn it.

I was able to use a piece of technology to enable him to see how awesome and fun mountain biking can be. Now he's interested in getting a normal bike, getting out and having fun. He never realized, nor did I before I got my ebike, how awesome the local trails are around us. Now that we've experienced it we want to bike all the time and I'm looking forward to converting some of my other nonbiking friends also.

This is just my experience&#8230;.which I think is a positive one. There may be evil dooers on Ebikes wreaking havoc across the land but I have yet to encounter this. I've seen a decent number of ebikes, mostly on regular roads, and just a handful on single tracks. I personally have never seen an ebike or any bike terrorize a single track. In the past few months and few thousand miles EVERY MTBer I've encountered was nice and just complimented me on my Ebike, or was just curious about it.

So why do I use the tow method? Because it's fun and a great way to get some of my friends to come biking with me. If me and my buddy towed passed you climbing up a fire road at 6mph, you're telling me this would ruin your day?

Only other thing. I am definitely not the fastest guy on the trail. Some of you guys are badass and shred that **** Xgames style. People that are worried about Ebikes going fast on single tracks are kinda being silly. Yes, there are youtube videos of guys doing like 50Mph on an Ebike on a fireroad. Wooptie doo, that would get boring really fast. Get that guy and his bike on a twisty rocky single track descent and I guarantee he's not riding as fast as you on your 25lb bike. Noone is flying down your local single tracks, around blind corners at 30mph&#8230;at least not for very long. I don't think you have anything to worry about. The access argument goes on and on and on so I just want to say that I and many people like me will be out there advocating with you if there are any access issues in the future. We just want to ride too.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Nubster said:


> I'd rather earn my smiles to be honest.


But think about that last run that you want to get in, but you're hella tired and contemplating just going home. I come by and offer you a tow to the top for one final run. I can respect your decline but Im totally down to tow you up for that one last epic run to end the day.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Smithhammer said:


> I'm having a hard time thinking of anything more embarrassing.
> 
> Exactly the point the continues to be missed. It ain't supposed to be easy.


Does it have to be hard all the time. Can we have few cheat days once in a while?


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## outlaws (Aug 26, 2008)

I totally hear ya man... that's exactly what the law makers want us to do by imposing such ridiculous laws.

I really can't understand all the haters on ebikes. It's just a mountain bike with a motor assist to help people who don't have the fitness be able to climb a hill they would not be able to climb otherwise. Whatever gets people out on the trails is better than them being on a couch potato. If you want to earn your view then good for you but if I have friends who are couch potatoes and if they want to enjoy the same trails why aren't they allowed to do it? I personally would like to pedal mtb under 3k ft but if it's anything over I rather use an ebike for the climb because it is time consuming not everyone has 5+ hours to grind up a hill everyday. If you want to climb that good for you but not everyone wants to or have the time to do it. It's all public land and everyone should be able to enjoy it since we all pay taxes just like hikers and equestrians.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Phantastic79 said:


> We just want to ride too.


Then go get you some access, just don't depend on Mountain Bikers to do it for you because frankly, it ain't going to happen.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

outlaws said:


> I really can't understand all the haters on ebikes. It's just a mountain bike with a motor assist


It is not a mountain bike.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Then go get you some access, just don't depend on Mountain Bikers to do it for you because frankly, it ain't going to happen.


I'm not depending on anyone to do anything for me. I'm just riding.


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## outlaws (Aug 26, 2008)

life behind bars said:


> It is not a mountain bike.


It's a MOUNTAIN BIKE with a MOTOR ASSIST for going UPHILL


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Phantastic79 said:


> But think about that last run that you want to get in, but you're hella tired and contemplating just going home. I come by and offer you a tow to the top for one final run. I can respect your decline but Im totally down to tow you up for that one last epic run to end the day.


If I'm too tired to climb...I'm probably too tired to safely descend. I'd thank you for the offer but call it a day.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

outlaws said:


> It's a MOUNTAIN BIKE with a MOTOR ASSIST for going UPHILL


Bicycles do not have motors no matter how many letters you capitalize.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

outlaws said:


> It's just a mountain bike with a motor assist to help people who don't have the fitness be able to climb a hill they would not be able to climb otherwise.....


Here's the thing - there will ALWAYS be hills that are too hard to climb, no matter how good you are. There will always be more challenges. There will be things you can't get up, as hard as you try. BUT there are also the things you couldn't get up last year, and now you can. Because you've worked hard at it since then, and put the time in. And those challenges can be found for everyone who is capable of riding a bicycle - _from the beginner to the expert._ That's what riding a bike in the mountains, or backcountry skiing in the mountains, or climbing in the mountains, _is really all about. _ It's about doing it with your own steam, whether it's a small hill with a 5% grade, or a 3000' climb with a 20% grade.

You worked hard, and you persisted, and maybe you failed a few times, but eventually you did it. And you will NEVER experience what that really feels like when you are using a motor instead of your own legs.

I don't really know how else to explain it, other than that it's about feeling a sense of accomplishment from doing it yourself (regardless of what "it" is) rather than relying on artificial assistance. And that feeling has nothing to do with age or ability, assuming you're at least fit enough to turn a crank on your own. If you don't get that, then I don't know what else to say.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Smithhammer said:


> Here's the thing - there will ALWAYS be hills that are too hard to climb, no matter how good you are. There will always be more challenges. There will be things you can't get up, as hard as you try. BUT there are also the things you couldn't get up last year, and now you can. Because you've worked hard at it since then, and put the time in. And those challenges can be found for everyone who is capable of riding a bicycle - _from the beginner to the expert._ That's what riding a bike in the mountains, or backcountry skiing in the mountains, or climbing in the mountains, _is really all about. _ It's about doing it with your own steam, whether it's a small hill with a 5% grade, or a 3000' climb with a 20% grade.
> 
> You worked hard, and you persisted, and maybe you failed a few times, but eventually you did it. And you will NEVER experience what that really feels like when you are using a motor instead of your own legs.
> 
> I don't really know how else to explain it, other than that it's about feeling a sense of accomplishment from doing it yourself (regardless of what "it" is) rather than relying on artificial assistance. And that feeling has nothing to do with age or ability, assuming you're at least fit enough to turn a crank on your own. If you don't get that, then I don't know what else to say.


That is very well put. I totally agree with what you are saying and actually I do not ride my Ebike 100% of the time. But....I don't always have time to do it the standard way. Sometimes I just want to squeeze in a few quick runs and that's what my ebike allows me to do in the limited time allotted. My ebike also allows me to ride with my friends who otherwise couldn't...and I like my friends so ditching them and getting new ones is not an option for me.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Walt said:


> The Kenovo thread was about why folks who like e-bikes and want more access should be *terrified* of the direction that e-bikes are headed. If you want to get grandpa out for exercise, or you're injured and need a boost just to get out... there were already bikes for that. The Kenovo is for people who want to ride a motorcycle like vehicle on non-moto trails, full stop. And it's a logical development. But it's a death knell for access and it's well worth discussing why Specializing would want to go there (presumably because of short-term profits that would otherwise be lost to cheap Chinese knockoffs).
> 
> -Walt


You're wasting your breath, he rides a bike with a motor that isn't a legal emtb anywhere in the world, and, he already rides it on trails that aren't even ebike legal. He's not the least bit concerned about future ebike access.

http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/e-bike-pic-thread-1009953.html#post13243556

http://forums.mtbr.com/california-norcal/e-bikes-demo-wtf-1050288.html#post13248170


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Phantastic79 said:


> I'm not depending on anyone to do anything for me. I'm just riding.


That was the attitude that caused MTBR's to take decades for (some) acceptance.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I have bought Levo's in the past to haul ass on. Period. They were purchased for FUN, FUN, FUN! Get it? This exercise argument is foolish. The ONLY argument that is valid is TRAIL ACCESS. Anything else is just dickish. Like someone else once said, " you pedal your bike BFD!" Btw I'm 85 and earn every 10,000' of climbing followed by countless whips on the way down. I also scrub better than James Stewart on my mtb! Who's to say old dudes can't rock.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Gutch said:


> I have bought Levo's in the past to haul ass on. Period. They were purchased for FUN, FUN, FUN! Get it? This exercise argument is foolish. The ONLY argument that is valid is TRAIL ACCESS. Anything else is just dickish. Like someone else once said, " you pedal your bike BFD!" Btw I'm 85 and earn every 10,000' of climbing followed by countless whips on the way down. I also scrub better than James Stewart on my mtb! Who's to say old dudes can't rock.


Maybe you see it as "dickish." I see it as, "the value of doing the thing is directly related to the effort put into it."

I also realize that not everyone sees it that way. I also think that not seeing things that way is an increasingly prevalent mentality in our 'immediate gratification' culture, and I wonder where that takes us as a society. But believe me - it is all about _fun_ for me as well. It's just that I have fun working hard uphill _and_ bombing down.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

At the end of the day, they are just toys.
Quoted by "Harryman"


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Gutch said:


> I have bought Levo's in the past to haul ass on. Period. They were purchased for FUN, FUN, FUN! Get it? This exercise argument is foolish. The ONLY argument that is valid is TRAIL ACCESS. Anything else is just dickish. Like someone else once said, " you pedal your bike BFD!" Btw I'm 85 and earn every 10,000' of climbing followed by countless whips on the way down. I also scrub better than James Stewart on my mtb! Who's to say old dudes can't rock.


So if you're not gonna go all out then don't go at all? Isn't it silly to say that youre getting Zero exercise riding an ebike. Even riding MX burns a decent amount of calories with no pedaling. I think some exercise is better than none.

BTW - I see plenty of old dudes riding around my local trails. Many of them can shred and it is very inspiring to see.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Idc what pace you ride! I bought mine for fun. Fun for me is speed.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Harryman said:


> You're wasting your breath, he rides a bike with a motor that isn't a legal emtb anywhere in the world, and, he already rides it on trails that aren't even ebike legal. He's not the least bit concerned about future ebike access.
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/e-bike-pic-thread-1009953.html#post13243556
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/california-norcal/e-bikes-demo-wtf-1050288.html#post13248170


That's not true. I'm concerned with access and would attend any meeting in support of maintaining it. I'm even open to the idea of doing Trail work to keep the trails as nice as they are. Just because I ride an e-bike doesn't mean I don't give a ****.

As far as I know none of the trails around me in Northern California are in imminent danger of being shut down. I have heard recently that they are planning to open up a new open space for mountain biking. I forget the name of the area though. The last open space I can recall is Sierra Vista open space near Alum Rock in San Jose I believe.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Btw, your heart rate will increase on an ebike if ridden under very low assist. But if your after HIT training, hit the rower.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Phantastic79 said:


> Can we somehow keep this forum on topic specifically about ebikes?


Not likely. But you know what if there was a site dedicated to bikes + motors I promise you none of the haters are going to track it down and get on the forums there.

The problem is you are trying to play country and western in the middle of a rock and roll festival. There are bound to be issues. Just saying...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Smithhammer said:


> Maybe you see it as "dickish." I see it as, "the value of doing the thing is directly related to the effort put into it."


Why do you feel the need to impose your values on others?
People are free to determine their own set of values aren't they? Particularly when it comes to how they choose to spend their leisure time. Not everyone feels that the more suffering they do on a bicycle, the more of a savior to humanity they are. With good reason.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> Then go get you some access, just don't depend on Mountain Bikers to do it for you because frankly, it ain't going to happen.


I did and its been working out great for reg MT bikers and e bikers as well as for the hikers and other park users even the horse ppl like e bikes !


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> I did and its been working out great for reg MT bikers and e bikers as well as for the hikers and other park users even the horse ppl like e bikes !


Congrats, that's how it should work everywhere.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Where's LTZ been? I miss his mania.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Mookie said:


> Where's LTZ been? I miss his mania.


Now you've done it.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Why do you feel the need to impose your values on others?
> People are free to determine their own set of values aren't they? Particularly when it comes to how they choose to spend their leisure time. Not everyone feels that the more suffering they do on a bicycle, the more of a savior to humanity they are. With good reason.


If you'd bothered to consider, much less comprehend, my entire post, you'd realize that I don't expect to "impose my values on others" at all. I'm simply stating what my values are, take it or leave it.

Oh, and the "suffering/savior" description is horseshite, and isn't at all what I'm talking about. Though I'm not surprised that you would prefer to see it that way.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Phantastic79 said:


> That's not true. I'm concerned with access and would attend any meeting in support of maintaining it. I'm even open to the idea of doing Trail work to keep the trails as nice as they are. Just because I ride an e-bike doesn't mean I don't give a ****.
> 
> As far as I know none of the trails around me in Northern California are in imminent danger of being shut down. I have heard recently that they are planning to open up a new open space for mountain biking. I forget the name of the area though. The last open space I can recall is Sierra Vista open space near Alum Rock in San Jose I believe.


By riding a DH bike with a 3000w motor and a throttle on non ebike legal singletrack, you're proving our point that when you allow some ebikes on non motorized singletrack, you're effectively allowing all. Which is not what CA land managers want or agreed to, and puts class 1 ebike access in jeopardy, not mtb access. Guys like you provide reasons not to allow emtbs at all.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Harryman again.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Smithhammer said:


> Here's the thing - there will ALWAYS be hills that are too hard to climb, no matter how good you are. There will always be more challenges. There will be things you can't get up, as hard as you try. BUT there are also the things you couldn't get up last year, and now you can. Because you've worked hard at it since then, and put the time in. And those challenges can be found for everyone who is capable of riding a bicycle - _from the beginner to the expert._ That's what riding a bike in the mountains, or backcountry skiing in the mountains, or climbing in the mountains, _is really all about. _ It's about doing it with your own steam, whether it's a small hill with a 5% grade, or a 3000' climb with a 20% grade.
> 
> You worked hard, and you persisted, and maybe you failed a few times, but eventually you did it. And you will NEVER experience what that really feels like when you are using a motor instead of your own legs.
> 
> I don't really know how else to explain it, other than that it's about feeling a sense of accomplishment from doing it yourself (regardless of what "it" is) rather than relying on artificial assistance. And that feeling has nothing to do with age or ability, assuming you're at least fit enough to turn a crank on your own. If you don't get that, then I don't know what else to say.


For me, it's that I find trails that don't allow vehicles with motors to be special. And one of the reasons these trails are special to me is because they seem to be more wild and unspoiled than other trails that allow vehicles with motors.

I beleive this is because it can take a lot of effort and determination to use these trails without the aid of a motor. Being able to use a vehicle with a motor will make these trails a lot easier, so a lot less effort and perseverance will be needed to use them. This means the masses will be able to purchase a suitable vehicle with a motor and now be more likely to use these trails more often since the trails would be a lot easier with that vehicle. So more people will be using the trails increasing the usage and they will be traveling faster with the aid of a motor increasing range and the usage even more. This will make these trails less wild and pristine and ultimately less special.

This is why I do not think vehicls with motors should be allowed on non-motorized vehicle trails.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Phantastic79 said:


> But think about that last run that you want to get in, but you're hella tired and contemplating just going home. I come by and offer you a tow to the top for one final run. I can respect your decline but Im totally down to tow you up for that one last epic run to end the day.


The e-bike has enough power to tow me to the top?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

My e bike barley has enough battery n power to try n keep up with my buddy riding a reg mt bike 7 mi a lap we do two laps , and that's a flat course no climbs over 10ft and you think your gonna tow ppl up? LOL funny stuff


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

rider95 said:


> My e bike barley has enough battery n power to try n keep up with my buddy riding a reg mt bike 7 mi a lap we do two laps , and that's a flat course no climbs over 10ft and you think your gonna tow ppl up? LOL funny stuff


Yes. I have enough power to tow you up. We're not hauling ass(5mphish) and the towee has to ride one handed, which can be somewhat difficult....on the flats you throw the dog leash back and it auto retracts.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

rider95 said:


> My e bike barley has enough battery n power to try n keep up with my buddy riding a reg mt bike 7 mi a lap we do two laps , and that's a flat course no climbs over 10ft and you think your gonna tow ppl up? LOL funny stuff[/QUOTE
> 
> Why do you need an ebike to ride a flat 7 mile course?


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Phantastic79 said:


> Yes. My friends' legs work. But unfortunately he is only a standard human. The kind that works full time and perhaps Gyms like once a week. They are not inhuman super heroes like you guys. His mortal lungs can sustain probably about 100' of an average fire road climb. After that he will pass out from exhaustion.


Maybe your friend should go to boot camp. They'll have a blast with him, and when they're done, he'll look at you using him as an excuse to not use your bodies blessed abilities as an embarrassment.



Phantastic79 said:


> Now I know what the standard and very reasonable argument would be. Guys gotta earn it, start off small and eventually work his way up. You can Do it&#8230;yeah! Sure that is great. But I loosely base this off a skiing analogy. Can you imagine how hard it would be to learn how to Ski if you didn't have access to a ski lift? Sure you could just start off cross country skiing and then start slowly hiking higher and higher up the mountain for longer runs. You would build tons of endurance but your actual skiing skills would take forever to develop. Not to mention that the difficulty would weed out like 90%+ of potential new skiers. This may be good or bad depending on your perspective.


It's called skinning. Do it either on ski's or splitboards. Also, postholing or snowshoeing. Everyday, all winter. More friggin folks than you can shake a stick at.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Crankout said:


> The e-bike has enough power to tow me to the top?


Yes....but you have to peedal a little bit also, mainly to keep balanced and make the towing smoother. You can't just sit on your bike like a sack of potatoes.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Smithhammer said:


> I'm having a hard time thinking of anything more embarrassing.
> 
> Exactly the point that continues to be missed. It ain't supposed to be easy.


awesome!!!

My smile would be twice as big because I mastered the uphill!!!


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Gutch said:


> I also scrub better than James Stewart on my mtb! Who's to say old dudes can't rock.


And then the bike stays on its side after you make it over the crest? I suppose the picture looks good, mid-scrub? Just forget the carnage on the other side?


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Phantastic79 said:


> Yes....but you have to peedal a little bit also, mainly to keep balanced and make the towing smoother. You can't just sit on your bike like a sack of potatoes.


But you are probably getting as close as possible.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Phantastic79 said:


> Yes....but you have to peedal a little bit also, mainly to keep balanced and make the towing smoother. You can't just sit on your bike like a sack of potatoes.


What e bike do you ride? and how big of climb?


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Nubster said:


> If I'm too tired to climb...I'm probably too tired to safely descend. I'd thank you for the offer but call it a day.


bam!! QFT


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

jochribs said:


> Maybe your friend should go to boot camp. They'll have a blast with him, and when they're done, he'll look at you using him as an excuse to not use your bodies blessed abilities as an embarrassment.
> 
> It's called skinning. Do it either on ski's or splitboards. Also, postholing or snowshoeing. Everyday, all winter. More friggin folks than you can shake a stick at.


That would be an awesome idea and I would.be in full.support if my buddy going to a boot camp. But in real life he probably won't do that.

I'm sure many tough folks can scale mountains and snowshoe for days on end. That's great, and I'm nowhere near as badass as those doods. I just wanna ride my bike.

Just to be clear on something. I've been riding (some of you may disagree) for a year now and love it. Believe it or not I actually prefer to ride a non ebike over my ebike. But I don't because of time(probably a crappy excuse). I have all sorts of life I have to deal with and don't get to get away for bike rides very often. I get 2-3hrs tops to ride. With my ebike I can do a few fun runs rather than just 1. Which IMO is much funner for me. The exercise aspect is secondary.

I sold my nomad....but now thinking about picking up a super light 29er tallboy to suplement the DH ebike I have now.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

...


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

jochribs said:


> But you are probably getting as close as possible.


30% of something is better than 100% of nothing right?


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

rider95 said:


> What e bike do you ride? and how big of climb?


Custom made. I have only encounter a few hills I can't climb. But these are hills that most people can't even hike up.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Phantastic79 said:


> That is very well put. I totally agree with what you are saying and actually I do not ride my Ebike 100% of the time. But....I don't always have time to do it the standard way. Sometimes I just want to squeeze in a few quick runs and that's what my ebike allows me to do in the limited time allotted. My ebike also allows me to ride with my friends who otherwise couldn't...and I like my friends so ditching them and getting new ones is not an option for me.


 I can do quick runs on my regular bike, no motor needed. Tow up? Bwaahaaa, so funny, but so sad at the same time. Everyone starts what ever sport as a beginner. Skiing, soccer, bicycling etc. Grow the endurance, skills and stamina. No motor needed. My 81 yr old mom does 10 miles on the bike path. And leads hiking groups too. So they are more walks and hill climbs but you get the point. Your friends do zero exercise and have no cardio base? Not saying they could climb for an hour but tow? Start with some fire roads and small hills. Wow.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Phantastic79 said:


> That would be an awesome idea and I would.be in full.support if my buddy going to a boot camp. But in real life he probably won't do that.
> 
> I'm sure many tough folks can scale mountains and snowshoe for days on end. That's great, and I'm nowhere near as badass as those doods. I just wanna ride my bike.
> 
> ...


The constant argument about needing E-everything is that everyone else is an olympic/world champ contender and the E-proponents are just mere mortals.

WRONG. We are all mere mortals. We're just not exceptionally weak-minded, and not exceptionally adept for making excuses for being such.

As with 'everything' in life. You have to work for things. The slippery slope these days is that companies are more than happy to give the 'frogs' hotter and hotter water. Realize you're standing on an extremely slippery slope.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

leeboh said:


> I can do quick runs on my regular bike, no motor needed. Tow up? Bwaahaaa, so funny, but so sad at the same time. Everyone starts what ever sport as a beginner. Skiing, soccer, bicycling etc. Grow the endurance, skills and stamina. No motor needed. My 81 yr old mom does 10 miles on the bike path. And leads hiking groups too. So they are more walks and hill climbs but you get the point. Your friends do zero exercise and have no cardio base? Not saying they could climb for an hour but tow? Start with some fire roads and small hills. Wow.


I totally agree with you. He should start of small and build his way up. That's a great approach. But in real life my friend is just an average dood. And average fit humans cannot climb MBT hills on their first or 5th try. It is way too difficult to be enjoyable for them.

So my option is to use the tow method or not go on a bike ride with my friend.

Doesn't this sound reasonable?

BTW - we are just going up a wide fire road to enjoy the outdoors and the view. I'm not taking my inexperience friend down the widow Maker single track so this should interfere with your runs.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> I have all sorts of life I have to deal with and don't get to get away for bike rides very often. I get 2-3hrs tops to ride.


Yeah, the rest of us don't have to deal with life at all, it's really great.

There are lots of stories on here by posters who started out way out of shape and way over weight who started mountain biking to get healthy. They rode real bicycles without anyone towing them up the hills. They didn't make excuses. They entered the sport of mountain biking and had lots of fun and improved their health. And they had all sorts of life to deal with.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Phantastic79 said:


> Custom made. I have only encounter a few hills I can't climb. But these are hills that most people can't even hike up.


Hub motor or middrive? you make the battery or bought? have you ever tried to tow someone on two wheels? not really buying the I will tow you up the MT thing since I have been riding a e bike for about 5yrs now theres a lot of misconception about how powerful and long one will go .


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

rider95 said:


> What e bike do you ride? and how big of climb?


See Harryman's post #26 and #42 above, rider95. I think you may find this guy is not doing you any favors.


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

life behind bars said:


> No one ever claimed this was a safe space.


Do E-bikes just live in your head rent free?

Avi/Signature. Jesus man go outside.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Idc what pace you ride! I bought mine for fun. Fun for me is speed.


That's why most people buy motorized vehicles. And why so many of us are concerned about ebikes, "Fun for me is speed" usually leads to wanting more speed and we all know most ebikes can easily be modified for more speed.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Phantastic79 said:


> I totally agree with you. He should start of small and build his way up. That's a great approach. But in real life my friend is just an average dood. And average fit humans cannot climb MBT hills on their first or 5th try. It is way too difficult to be enjoyable for them.
> 
> So my option is to use the tow method or not go on a bike ride with my friend.
> 
> ...


 Interfere? Only if my singletrack gets shut down. I would say that the average fit person CAN ride a bike on some fire roads and small hills, no motor needed. Some things are meant to be hard, I still walk hills and tech ups from time to time. No participation trophy given. Take downhill skiing. Sure I do XX black diamonds, but not for the first 3 years , got some lessons and 20 -30 days on the mountain a year. Skills, progression, growing stamina and endurance etc. Kind of makes me sad inside.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

rider95 said:


> Hub motor or middrive? you make the battery or bought? have you ever tried to tow someone on two wheels? not really buying the I will tow you up the MT thing since I have been riding a e bike for about 5yrs now theres a lot of misconception about how powerful and long one will go .


You can really only do this with a mid Drive motor and with the appropriate gearing. If you tried to build a hub motor bike that could tow someone uphill it would weigh well over 100 lb and that heavy ass Hub motor would suck to go downhill on with any sort of treacherous terrain. I just bought the battery making batteries is a pain. With my set up now I can do a total climb of about 6000 ft with a considerable amount of peddling but if I'm towing somebody it's probably half that.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Phantastic79 said:


> You guys are killin me. Yes, ebike haters don't want ebikes on their trails. We get it.


I really don't think you do. Most of us here aren't the "haters" you need to worry about. Check this link provided by Harryman a few days ago in the Pivot thread: https://www.facebook.com/wilderness...160330396668/1081512431928115/?type=3&theater

And for the record: I couldn't care less about how, why, or what you use to recreate, as long as you're doing it legally, which doesn't seem to be the case from what I'm reading.

I used to get flack from my long time skateboarder friend about how snowboarding was cheating because you were strapped to the board. No matter how much I tried to convince him it was a totally different deal, he wouldn't change his opinion.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Phantastic79 said:


> Just to be clear on something. I've been riding (some of you may disagree) for a year now and love it. Believe it or not I actually prefer to ride a non ebike over my ebike. But I don't because of time(probably a crappy excuse). I have all sorts of life I have to deal with and don't get to get away for bike rides very often. I get 2-3hrs tops to ride. With my ebike I can do a few fun runs rather than just 1. Which IMO is much funner for me. The exercise aspect is secondary.


I can think of a lot of legitimate reasons why someone might want to ride an ebike (in legal areas) but the time excuse I just don't get, and your example is one reason why I'm against ebikes and bicycles being regarded as the same thing because it supports the assertion that ebikes use more trail and therefore have more impact.

2-3 hours is time crunched? Most of my rides are ~1.5 hours because that's all I can manage and they are still awesome, the distance covered is irrelevant. You could do even more runs with a YZ250 but that's not really the point.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

singletrackmack said:


> For me, it's that I find trails that don't allow vehicles with motors to be special. And one of the reasons these trails are special to me is because they seem to be more wild and unspoiled than other trails that allow vehicles with motors.


Me too. This point seems to be dismissed by most here but is really important to a lot of outdoor enthusiasts.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> I can think of a lot of legitimate reasons why someone might want to ride an ebike (in legal areas) but the time excuse I just don't get, and your example is one reason why I'm against ebikes and bicycles being regarded as the same thing because it supports the assertion that ebikes use more trail and therefore have more impact.
> 
> 2-3 hours is time crunched? Most of my rides are ~1.5 hours because that's all I can manage and they are still awesome, the distance covered is irrelevant. You could do even more runs with a YZ250 but that's not really the point.


1.5 hours would be great if you just rode out your front door and back. But if you're 30mins from your riding location, which is pretty reasonable, that gives you only 30 mins of ride time after travel to and from. I would guess most you guys bike for more than 30 mins when you go out.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

leeboh said:


> Interfere? Only if my singletrack gets shut down. I would say that the average fit person CAN ride a bike on some fire roads and small hills, no motor needed. Some things are meant to be hard, I still walk hills and tech ups from time to time. No participation trophy given. Take downhill skiing. Sure I do XX black diamonds, but not for the first 3 years , got some lessons and 20 -30 days on the mountain a year. Skills, progression, growing stamina and endurance etc. Kind of makes me sad inside.


Belueve it or not I'm actually one of the people you're describing. I just did it on an ebike. I've lost like 15 pounds since I started riding. Started off on small hills and fireroads and worked my way up to steeper terrain and IMO my ebike has allowed me to progress much faster since I can do more runs. Sure it's cheating, but it's disingenuous to say that ebike riders are getting zero excercise. My main objective is fun, excercise is secondary.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

chazpat said:


> Yeah, the rest of us don't have to deal with life at all, it's really great.
> 
> There are lots of stories on here by posters who started out way out of shape and way over weight who started mountain biking to get healthy. They rode real bicycles without anyone towing them up the hills. They didn't make excuses. They entered the sport of mountain biking and had lots of fun and improved their health. And they had all sorts of life to deal with.


You are right and I apologize for implying that I'm any busier than anyone else here. Sorry about that.


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Why do you need an ebike to ride a flat 7 mile course?


Why do you need anything? Why do you need a bike to go around anything. Just walk or jog lazy.

Maybe he has fun riding an ebike.

The elitist attitude most mtbers have is so off putting.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

chazpat said:


> See Harryman's post #26 and #42 above, rider95. I think you may find this guy is not doing you any favors.


I think a little fun is being aimed at you guys and your wiliness to bite . You might get one climb up a MT instead of the chairlift then its a 3 hr recharge not exactly running up and down the Mt all day.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> My main objective is fun, excercise is secondary.


I've said the same thing countless times with regard to mountain biking.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Me too. This point seems to be dismissed by most here but is really important to a lot of outdoor enthusiasts.


Also the exact same point used by people that fight against MTBs.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Phantastic79 said:


> Belueve it or not I'm actually one of the people you're describing. I just did it on an ebike. I've lost like 15 pounds since I started riding. Started off on small hills and fireroads and worked my way up to steeper terrain and IMO my ebike has allowed me to progress much faster since I can do more runs. Sure it's cheating, but it's disingenuous to say that ebike riders are getting zero excercise. My main objective is fun, excercise is secondary.


 Mis quoting me here. Did not say e bikers are getting zero exercise, said the average fit person could do some mt biking, small hills and fire roads. Lost weight and getting fit? Great. Not cheating, just not mt biking, it's a different kind of thing and probably different goals/outlook. Try it without the motor, morr funner. Lighter bike, easier to pedal and less weight to try to move around.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

leeboh said:


> Mis quoting me here. Did not say e bikers are getting zero exercise, said the average fit person could do some mt biking, small hills and fire roads. Lost weight and getting fit? Great. Not cheating, just not mt biking, it's a different kind of thing and probably different goals/outlook. Try it without the motor, morr funner. Lighter bike, easier to pedal and less weight to try to move around.


Sorry for misquoting you. I do actually like to ride a regular bike. It's lighter and funner downhill. And now I've actually built up enough endurance that I can pedal up the hill. Probably have to take a few breaks between but whatever.

I'm thinking about getting a XC bike to supplement my ebike, nice to have different options to play with on the weekends.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Cornfield said:


> I used to get flack from my long time skateboarder friend about how snowboarding was cheating because you were strapped to the board. No matter how much I tried to convince him it was a totally different deal, he wouldn't change his opinion.


This is really close to what I see going on here. People insisting that e-biking isn't mountain biking (which it isn't) and then going on to call it 'cheating' at mountain biking. Well, if it isn't mountain biking in the first place, why bother with that sort of comparison at all? It's a different game. Who gives a damn if somebody doesn't wake up every day dreaming of being the world's best exerciser? Bunch of petty personal BS that has nothing to do with anything besides trying to feel superior in some way. Reminds me of a lot of the crap MV used to post 'proving' mountain bikers had personality disorders.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> .... Well, if it isn't mountain biking in the first place, why bother with that sort of comparison at all?


Because lots of trail moped riders (and manufacturers) seem to make that comparison frequently, so people respond to it? Shocking, I know...

But I agree with you. _And,_ I'd like to see your logic taken one step further - if it isn't mountain biking in the first place, then WTF is it even doing on MTBR at all?

It's not about "superiority" - it's about the definition of _bicycling._ Saying there shouldn't be a kite surfing forum on MTBR isn't about feeling "superior" either, it's about simply acknowledging the obvious.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

leeboh said:


> Interfere? Only if my singletrack gets shut down. I would say that the average fit person CAN ride a bike on some fire roads and small hills, no motor needed. Some things are meant to be hard, I still walk hills and tech ups from time to time. No participation trophy given. Take downhill skiing. Sure I do XX black diamonds, but not for the first 3 years , got some lessons and 20 -30 days on the mountain a year. Skills, progression, growing stamina and endurance etc. Kind of makes me sad inside.


All I can say is that if there was immenant threat of a MTB area getting shut down I would be in line to advocate for it. I like to ride just like you.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Phantastic79 said:


> All I can say is that if there was immenant threat of a MTB area getting shut down I would be in line to advocate for it. I like to ride just like you.


While riding an illegal bike on trails that are closed to e-bikes? Can't overlook the irony in that one.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Phantastic79 said:


> All I can say is that if there was immenant threat of a MTB area getting shut down I would be in line to advocate for it. I like to ride just like you.


Come to Marin, there is always a threat of getting trails shutdown.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

I love electric bikes and am think of getting an e-mountain bike. Just trying to got the most powerful one made. MO power = MO fun. Of course I'll put a 750watt sticker on the side so it's legal. 
http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/zero-s-mountain-bike-should-allowed-non-motorized-trails-1056214.html


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Also the exact same point used by people that fight against MTBs.


Does not make the point any less legitimate, I'm all for some places being closed to mtb's too. Also they were right, many of the objectors cited the "slippery slope" argument in regards to keeping some trails non-motorized and look what's happening now.


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## mydogkoal (Feb 1, 2016)

Smithhammer said:


> Because lots of trail moped riders (and manufacturers) seem to make that comparison frequently, so people respond to it? Shocking, I know...
> 
> But I agree with you. _And,_ I'd like to see your logic taken one step further - if it isn't mountain biking in the first place, then WTF is it even doing on MTBR at all?
> 
> It's not about "superiority" - it's about the definition of _bicycling._ Saying there shouldn't be a kite surfing forum on MTBR isn't about feeling "superior" either, it's about simply acknowledging the obvious.


I would love to be able to climb hills or even do downhill like my friends can. I only have 60% lung function. This means that no matter how hard I train, I can never do those things. An E-mountain bike can allow me to do this. It's easy to judge when you have your health. If your health goes, your opinion will change. I used to say that I didnt care if I lived past 50. Now that I am 50 I dont feel that way. ITs a mountain bike. It doesnt have a throttle. You have to pedal to make it move. It's slower downhill therefore it has less impact on the trails. Who harms trail access more? The guy who is on strava racing through plowing into hikers or the old guy on an Ebike?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

life behind bars said:


> While riding an illegal bike on trails that are closed to e-bikes? Can't overlook the irony in that one.


Right?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

mydogkoal said:


> I would love to be able to climb hills or even do downhill like my friends can. I only have 60% lung function. This means that no matter how hard I train, I can never do those things. An E-mountain bike can allow me to do this. It's easy to judge when you have your health. If your health goes, your opinion will change. I used to say that I didnt care if I lived past 50. Now that I am 50 I dont feel that way. ITs a mountain bike. It doesnt have a throttle. You have to pedal to make it move. It's slower downhill therefore it has less impact on the trails. Who harms trail access more? The guy who is on strava racing through plowing into hikers or the old guy on an Ebike?


Everyone here is in full agreement that those with disabilities should be able to ride e-bikes.

The problem is that most people with e-bikes have nothing wrong with them and just want to go faster/farther. If you want to be able to ride your e-bike (or any bike) on trails in the future, you need to be working to prevent 750W DH sleds from taking over.

-Walt


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Smithhammer said:


> But I agree with you. _And,_ I'd like to see your logic taken one step further - if it isn't mountain biking in the first place, then WTF is it even doing on MTBR at all?
> 
> It's not about "superiority" - it's about the definition of _bicycling._ Saying there shouldn't be a kite surfing forum on MTBR isn't about feeling "superior" either, it's about simply acknowledging the obvious.


I agree completely.

As I've said a ton of times here, E-bikes are NOT mountain bikes, and no one should put up with people pretending that they are. They need to be managed as a completely separate user group, and manufactures/retailers are doing mountain biking a major disservice by trying to conflate the two activities. I simply think insulting people for wanting to ride one or making oneself out to be superior choosing a different sport is 'dickish', as someone opined earlier. Draw the line and keep it clear yes, the rest of the BS about people being lazy or whatever is just elitist d-baggery.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

If now we are talking about trails being shutdown Please give an example of a trail that was shut down to MT bikers for any reason, our local trail was shutdown to MT bikers for a time guess what got the trail shut down???


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> While riding an illegal bike on trails that are closed to e-bikes? Can't overlook the irony in that one.


Soooo...I should not come to a town hall meeting discussion about closing down an area to MTB because I have ridden an ebike?

I get that you want me to vanish but you don't want my support at all?


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Come to Marin, there is always a threat of getting trails shutdown.


My sister lives in Santa Rosa. If there was risk of annadel getting shutdown I would come and advocate.

I've never ridden there on any kind of bike BTW.

Is there a park at risk at this moment? Not trying to be a dick just asking.

Last I heard they shut down most areas in Marin to MTB long before ebikes and people are trying to open those areas back up.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

rider95 said:


> If now we are talking about trails being shutdown Please give an example of a trail that was shut down to MT bikers for any reason, our local trail was shutdown to MT bikers for a time guess what got the trail shut down???


Was this the Los Gatos incident involving Strava times?


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Harryman said:


> You're wasting your breath, he rides a bike with a motor that isn't a legal emtb anywhere in the world, and, he already rides it on trails that aren't even ebike legal. He's not the least bit concerned about future ebike access.
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/e-bike-pic-thread-1009953.html#post13243556
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/california-norcal/e-bikes-demo-wtf-1050288.html#post13248170


Harryman, you have posted many great replies and I have a lot of respect for you and your vast knowledge.

You do know what these bikes and riders are capable of and not capable of IRL right? At 3000w I am not doing MX burnouts and tearing up the trail. Yes I can do more runs than average riders but with pratical equipment we are talking about 2 runs more than usual then I'm off the mountain. My bike weights 47lbs and I'm 170. Weight is not an issue compared to heavier riders.

No one is going downhill on a rough twisty single track and using their throttle. Gravity gives you enough speed on most downhill runs. Most ebike users only use their motor to climb uphill sections. No need to add speed going down. Ebikes are not as fast going downhill than other bikes mainly because of weight and manuverability in difficult runs. Fire roads sure, but not difficult terrain. Of course there are always exceptions.

I'm just curious if you realize this and know that ebikes and specifically my ebike is not actually terrorizing local trails. The access issue is a whole different conversation.


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## mydogkoal (Feb 1, 2016)

Walt said:


> Everyone here is in full agreement that those with disabilities should be able to ride e-bikes.
> 
> The problem is that most people with e-bikes have nothing wrong with them and just want to go faster/farther. If you want to be able to ride your e-bike (or any bike) on trails in the future, you need to be working to prevent 750W DH sleds from taking over.
> 
> -Walt


I agree with you in that if you can climb you should. I can legally ride an ebike on certain state trails because of my disability but there is no provision for federal trails. I hope that this opens up for people with disabilities as well as older people.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

jochribs said:


> The constant argument about needing E-everything is that everyone else is an olympic/world champ contender and the E-proponents are just mere mortals.
> 
> WRONG. We are all mere mortals. We're just not exceptionally weak-minded, and not exceptionally adept for making excuses for being such.
> 
> As with 'everything' in life. You have to work for things. The slippery slope these days is that companies are more than happy to give the 'frogs' hotter and hotter water. Realize you're standing on an extremely slippery slope.


I'll say it one more time... I ride them for FUN! Get it? I should join your Aldon Baker boot camp though!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

chazpat said:


> That's why most people buy motorized vehicles. And why so many of us are concerned about ebikes, "Fun for me is speed" usually leads to wanting more speed and we all know most ebikes can easily be modified for more speed.


Yup, Now when I'm on my regular bike I ride as slow as possible, like every poster here!


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> Harryman, you have posted many great replies and I have a lot of respect for you and your vast knowledge.
> 
> You do know what these bikes and riders are capable of and not capable of IRL right? At 3000w I am not doing MX burnouts and tearing up the trail. Yes I can do more runs than average riders but with pratical equipment we are talking about 2 runs more than usual then I'm off the mountain. My bike weights 47lbs and I'm 170. Weight is not an issue compared to heavier riders.
> 
> ...


All right ebikers, he has verified that he is riding an illegal ebike on trails. Your thoughts on this?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^What did he say to imply this?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

3000w

and a throttle


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

For those of you who are unable to come to the realization there are real threats to access exhibit A is below.

Marin hikers, equestrians dismayed over bike access on Alto Bowl trail

Clashes mount as more mountain bikers, hikers, equestrians hit the trails - Orange County Register

Bikers unwelcome on many L.A. trails - latimes

Why Mountain Biking is Inappropriate in Wilderness | The Wildlife News

Mountain bikes and wilderness don't mix - High Country News

https://ww2.kqed.org/forum/2017/02/...access-in-the-sports-birthplace-marin-county/


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Yes, California. Other areas are not going to be an issue. Let the LM decide. When they do, we can all get excited at that time. Being involved in Forestry and managing mega acres of timberlands, I can tell you that nothing pisses me off more than trespassers and poachers. DO I AGREE WITH 3000w ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLES? Yeah, ridden at legal off-road parks or private land. 
Most, emtb riders I've seen are 1st and foremost mtbrs. Period. Very few newbies.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Just out of curiosity is there as much anti Ebike sentiment in the road bike world? Do they hate ebikes also?


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)




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## mydogkoal (Feb 1, 2016)

Every instance of mountain biker trail use issue is because of bad mountain bike etiquette. If you replaced every mountain biker that is trying to be KOM with a Ebike rider, there would be no issues at all. I am always courteous to hikers and especially courteous to people on horseback.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

mydogkoal said:


> Every instance of mountain biker trail use issue is because of bad mountain bike etiquette. If you replaced every mountain biker that is trying to be KOM with a Ebike rider, there would be no issues at all. I am always courteous to hikers and especially courteous to people on horseback.


Unfounded, unsupportable statement.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Phantastic79 said:


> Just out of curiosity is there as much anti Ebike sentiment in the road bike world? Do they hate ebikes also?


I doubt it. They don't have trail access issues that mtbers do.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I haven't got nothing but compliments from the roadies I've talked to while on my Turbo S. But, there is definitely a few riders that will not wave or acknowledge your existence. I ride a lot of road on my Cannondale as well. I will say my Turbo S roadbike has given me more power riding my Pivot, due to the weight and lack of high cadence.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mydogkoal said:


> Every instance of mountain biker trail use issue is because of bad mountain bike etiquette. If you replaced every mountain biker that is trying to be KOM with a Ebike rider, there would be no issues at all. I am always courteous to hikers and especially courteous to people on horseback.


What if that ebiker is riding an illegal 3000w throttle driven ebike?


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Gutch said:


> Yes, California. Other areas are not going to be an issue. Let the LM decide. When they do, we can all get excited at that time. Being involved in Forestry and managing mega acres of timberlands, I can tell you that nothing pisses me off more than trespassers and poachers. DO I AGREE WITH 3000w ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLES? Yeah, ridden at legal off-road parks or private land.
> Most, emtb riders I've seen are 1st and foremost mtbrs. Period. Very few newbies.


In case you're wondering I rarely go at 100% power on my bike. Mainly because there's no reason to and to conserve power. In fact I'm waiting on a programming cable so I can reprogramming the unit to run at the bare minimum wattage to get me up the hill with moderate pedaling. I'm guessing this will be in the 500w range. Extending my range would be much more useful for my style of riding. As far as throttle is concerned my setup is not really Pedal assist capable at the moment but i have a pass sensor on my list of items to install. Pedal assist is actually very convenient compared to trying to hold a throttle at 20%.

I actually would be totally ok with removing the throttle and just having a levo like bike. But my setup is not currently compatible with those options at the moment. And to be honest the moment my bike was ridable all I want to do is ride even if I'm still in prototype mode.

Oh...and one more thing. I didn't want the usual rats nest of wires you see on many ebikes. So for me I run no display. This is another reason I don't have pedal assist installed as that requires even more wires and clutter.

So....my point is I actually want to make a regular pedal assist mountain bike, I just haven't completed this task yet.

Wait one more thing. I'll leave you guys woth this story. Last weekend I got up early loaded my bike and headed out to do a few fun runs before noon. I get there and am all ready to go bit it turns out I had a malfunction and was unable to ride. Had to go home completing 0 runs. :-(
So with ebikes you have that many more things that can go wrong.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Phantastic79 said:


> My sister lives in Santa Rosa. If there was risk of annadel getting shutdown I would come and advocate.
> 
> I've never ridden there on any kind of bike BTW.
> 
> ...


Annadel doesn't allow any ebikes, thank dog. 
Marin MTbers are under constant attack by fake conservationists that exaggerate, lie and completely make up horror stories about us. They show up to any and every meeting and tell land managers to ban all bikes. Now they are using strava and ebikes to show speeds on trails.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Lemonaid said:


> I doubt it. They don't have trail access issues that mtbers do.


I'm guessing there a decent number of purist that don't like the idea of electrical assist. But perhaps Im wrong.


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## mydogkoal (Feb 1, 2016)

Capable mountain bikers would never go on an ebike. So no matter how much power you have, a capable mountain biker will be much faster downhill. Uphill is a little different. But you cant go faster than 20mph.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

chazpat said:


> What if that ebiker is riding an illegal 3000w throttle driven ebike?


You can't really ride it throttle only. It feels weird.

Well I suppose you could.... but again feels weird. I usually pedal until I'm tired or encounter a hill and then apply supplemental power.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

mydogkoal said:


> Capable mountain bikers would never go on an ebike. So no matter how much power you have, a capable mountain biker will be much faster downhill. Uphill is a little different. But you cant go faster than 20mph.


I agree. You would need a lot of power to even do 20mph on a decent fire road climb. And if you did do this you would drain your batt like 3x as fast as normal or over heat batt or Motor in most cases.


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## mydogkoal (Feb 1, 2016)

Just logic. I am in the process of buying an ebike because of my disability. I have gotten passed going uphill by people on ebike. Generally they are apologetic and older. Because of the animosity towards ebikes they are much nicer. Generally the only Mbers that I know that get into arguments or have close calls with hikers are fast downhillers. I wear a bell when I ride and I stop for everyone. I plan on doing the same when I get my ebike. I can guarantee you that I wont be the cause of trail use restrictions


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Most, emtb riders I've seen are 1st and foremost mtbrs. Period. Very few newbies.





mydogkoal said:


> Capable mountain bikers would never go on an ebike.


So who do we believe?


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Gutch said:


> I haven't got nothing but compliments from the roadies I've talked to while on my Turbo S. But, there is definitely a few riders that will not wave or acknowledge your existence. I ride a lot of road on my Cannondale as well. I will say my Turbo S roadbike has given me more power riding my Pivot, due to the weight and lack of high cadence.


Sell me on the road bike thing. I never really understood the appeal. Well if there were 0 MTB trails I would ride on the road, but road biking seems boring and hella dangerous. People is cars drive all crazy and the view is not nearly as nice.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

mydogkoal said:


> Just logic. I am in the process of buying an ebike because of my disability. I have gotten passed going uphill by people on ebike. Generally they are apologetic and older. Because of the animosity towards ebikes they are much nicer. Generally the only Mbers that I know that get into arguments or have close calls with hikers are fast downhillers. I wear a bell when I ride and I stop for everyone. I plan on doing the same when I get my ebike. I can guarantee you that I wont be the cause of trail use restrictions


Get a rad power bike they make nice bikes.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> Looking to pickup a newer regular bike again so I can use the tow method and ride with my non bike fanatic friends. This is a super awesome technique BTW one I would highly suggest you try if you can.





rider95 said:


> have you ever tried to tow someone on two wheels? not really buying the I will tow you up the MT thing since I have been riding a e bike for about 5yrs now theres a lot of misconception about how powerful and long one will go .





Phantastic79 said:


> So....my point is I actually want to make a regular pedal assist mountain bike, I just haven't completed this task yet.


I'm confused.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mydogkoal said:


> Capable mountain bikers would never go on an ebike. So no matter how much power you have, a capable mountain biker will be much faster downhill. Uphill is a little different. But you cant go faster than 20mph.


Never go on an emtb! That's hilarious, look at all the manufacturers producing them. Who do you think their target market is?


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

chazpat said:


> I'm confused.


I'm not clear on the confusion.

I want to buy a new regular bike since I sold.my nomad.

Dood doesn't believe that my ebike can tow a guy uphill.

If I could have built a pedal assist bike with no throttle in the frame I had to being with I would have. It just takes so much customization that I haven't completed this yet.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> Sell me on the road bike thing. I never really understood the appeal. Well if there were 0 MTB trails I would ride on the road, but road biking seems boring and hella dangerous. People is cars drive all crazy and the view is not nearly as nice.


They can be ridden in bike lanes, do not require registration nor insurance. They have been sold to governments as a way to get people out of their cars and lessening traffic, one of the reasons they have been marketed as electric bicycles. Most if not all of us are ok with his and think they could be a good thing.


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## mydogkoal (Feb 1, 2016)

Their target market is older mountain bikers who cannot climb anymore or I guess anyone who either cant or doesn't want to climb. When I refer to capable mountain bikers, I am referring to people who have the ability to qualify as an amateur racer. Not a weekend warrior type. I would be a capable mountain biker if I had a normal set of lungs.


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## mydogkoal (Feb 1, 2016)

If any of you haters would actually ride an ebike, your opinion would change. Not that you would want one or think it was awesome but you would realize that they are heavy and cumbersome and not something that someone that uses strava would be attracted to. I would just like to keep up with my friends. I think most people buying them feel the same way.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> I'm not clear on the confusion.
> 
> I want to buy a new regular bike since I sold.my nomad.
> 
> ...





Phantastic79 said:


> In fact I'm waiting on a programming cable so I can reprogramming the unit to run at the bare minimum wattage to get me up the hill with moderate pedaling. I'm guessing this will be in the 500w range.


You're currently using a 3000W motor to tow a guy uphill. If you reduce it to the 500W range (which is still illegal), will it be able to tow someone? From what rider95 said, it sounds like a legal ebike will not have that ability; not sure a 500w will either since it is 1/6 the wattage of what you have now.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mydogkoal said:


> Their target market is older mountain bikers who cannot climb anymore or I guess anyone who either cant or doesn't want to climb. When I refer to capable mountain bikers, I am referring to people who have the ability to qualify as an amateur racer. Not a weekend warrior type. I would be a capable mountain biker if I had a normal set of lungs.


Any capable mtbr can be an amateur racer. Most I've ridden with are Expert level cyclists. Maybe they have a broad marketing base.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Gutch said:


> Any capable mtbr can be an amateur racer. Most I've ridden with are Expert level cyclists. Maybe they have a broad marketing base.


Are you saying most of the ebikers you ride with are expert level mountain bikers?


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Gutch said:


> Any capable mtbr can be an amateur racer. Most I've ridden with are Expert level cyclists. Maybe they have a broad marketing base.


I think that you have a pretty vague understanding of what an amateur racer is, and is capable of.

There is a pretty large area between capable, and amateur...and then again, another large area between amateur and pro...and then pro and top level pro.

I keep getting the sense that E proponents think that the stuff us capable mere mortals do is so mind-boggling hard that they can't fathom ever doing it. It really isn't that hard. Just takes persistence.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

mydogkoal said:


> Their target market is older mountain bikers who cannot climb anymore or I guess anyone who either cant or doesn't want to climb. When I refer to capable mountain bikers, I am referring to people who have the ability to qualify as an amateur racer. Not a weekend warrior type. I would be a capable mountain biker if I had a normal set of lungs.


What's up with your lungs?


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

chazpat said:


> You're currently using a 3000W motor to tow a guy uphill. If you reduce it to the 500W range (which is still illegal), will it be able to tow someone? From what rider95 said, it sounds like a legal ebike will not have that ability; not sure a 500w will either since it is 1/6 the wattage of what you have now.


Actually yes I think it will work. Keep in mind we are both still pedling. And when we tow the tower is only on throttle like 30%. But if that was an issue we would go down a gear. But I won't really know until I try it.

My friend isn't completely lame. He can pedal a little.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

jochribs said:


> I think that you have a pretty vague understanding of what an amateur racer is, and is capable of.
> 
> There is a pretty large area between capable, and amateur...and then again, another large area between amateur and pro...and then pro and top level pro.
> 
> I keep getting the sense that E proponents think that the stuff us capable mere mortals do is so mind-boggling hard that they can't fathom ever doing it. It really isn't that hard. Just takes persistence.


Dood....last time I was out a guy kept up with me on my ebike on a climb for a solid half mile. It was some impressive stamina for how deep the grade was. Guy said he rides at least 3-5x a week. Some of you guys are amazing.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Are you saying most of the ebikers you ride with are expert level mountain bikers?


Yes, all the emtbrs ive risen with are either currently racing Expert class or have been state champs. Happy?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

jochribs said:


> I think that you have a pretty vague understanding of what an amateur racer is, and is capable of.
> 
> There is a pretty large area between capable, and amateur...and then again, another large area between amateur and pro...and then pro and top level pro.
> 
> I keep getting the sense that E proponents think that the stuff us capable mere mortals do is so mind-boggling hard that they can't fathom ever doing it. It really isn't that hard. Just takes persistence.


I have a very clear understanding of a Jack***!


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

chazpat said:


> They can be ridden in bike lanes, do not require registration nor insurance. They have been sold to governments as a way to get people out of their cars and lessening traffic, one of the reasons they have been marketed as electric bicycles. Most if not all of us are ok with his and think they could be a good thing.


Those are all great points but can you see yourself picking a road bike excursion over some sweet single track runs?


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Gutch said:


> I have a very clear understanding of a Jack***!


Classy response Gutch! I'm rolling on the floor here! Seriously though, do you have a rational response to my post??


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Gutch said:


> I'll say it one more time... I ride them for FUN! Get it? I should join your Aldon Baker boot camp though!


Ely Tomac should join Aldons boot camp


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I do, if I keep persistence, I can be just like you. Have you ever ridden an emtb?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

rider95 said:


> Ely Tomac should join Aldons boot camp


Why? He's outdoor mx champ.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Gutch said:


> I do, if I keep persistence, I can be just like you. Have you ever ridden an emtb?


Good grief. Just like me huh? As if I am saying that "I" am special? Unbelievable discussion skills in response to being informed of the very widely known difference between your average rider and an amateur. What an insult to amateurs, honestly.

And no, I haven't. I would rather get myself there.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

mydogkoal said:


> Their target market is older mountain bikers who cannot climb anymore or I guess anyone who either cant or doesn't want to climb. When I refer to capable mountain bikers, I am referring to people who have the ability to qualify as an amateur racer. Not a weekend warrior type. I would be a capable mountain biker if I had a normal set of lungs.


Truly the target market is anyone they can sell them to, which includes young fit guys that want to go faster. Granted, if you are on an ebike, and your faster friends are on regular bikes, it could work out. But if they get e-bikes, you will then need to up the ante to keep up. I've been the slow guy in my group, I've been the fast guy in my group, and now I'm back to being fairly slow again. When I started I was in HORRIBLE shape, but just used granny gear, walked what I couldn't clear, and pulled off to rest when I needed to. My lungs are 100% the limiting factor for me as well.

With a granny ring, just about anyone can mountain bike. Granted it's slower and at times definitely not as fun. But no matter what, there are always the downs. I mean even in TX we have downs, even if they are short.

It's like a lot of activities, not everyone can be at the same level and do it together. I knew a guy that I couldn't play tennis with, because he had competed in tournaments at the state level. We tried but it didn't work. He would just destroy me, or mess up his game going easy on me.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

jochribs said:


> Good grief. Just like me huh? As if I am saying that "I" am special? Unbelievable discussion skills in response to being informed of the very widely known difference between your average rider and an amateur. What an insult to amateurs, honestly.
> 
> And no, I haven't. I would rather get myself there.


Dude, last time! I did not ride my Levo for fitness. GET IT? I consider a capable rider anyone with technical skills and endurance. Is that not a capable mtbr to you? Come ride Pisgah forest with me or jump on a road bike and I'm sure you'll realize I'm very capable. You act like everyone that buys one of these is a flake. Get a life bro.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Am I in a road bike forum? Wtf.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Gutch said:


> Dude, last time! I did not ride my Levo for fitness. GET IT? I consider a capable rider anyone with technical skills and endurance. Is that not a capable mtbr to you? Come ride Pisgah forest with me or jump on a road bike and I'm sure you'll realize I'm very capable. You act like everyone that buys one of these is a flake. Get a life bro.


Last time??

I think I've responded to a comment of yours once. Before that, I had no knowledge of your existence. You seem a little touchy.

And now you're blurring the lines between yourself and an amateur, by claiming that you yourself are very capable? I'm picturing a person (man??) with smoke coming out of his ears while clenching his fists and talking in circles. Which just makes him more and more irate. Vicious circle, that.

Don't act like a flake, and folks won't think of you as one.

I didn't think that until a few posts ago, ironically.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

mydogkoal said:


> I agree with you in that if you can climb you should. I can legally ride an ebike on certain state trails because of my disability but there is no provision for federal trails. I hope that this opens up for people with disabilities as well as older people.


Right on ! I built my e bike 5 yr ago for me to be used by me to ride with reg MT bikes I never intended to get caught up in this new E bike craze I just want to ride .


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

jochribs said:


> Last time??
> 
> I think I've responded to a comment of yours once. Before that, I had no knowledge of your existence. You seem a little touchy.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the life lesson.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Gutch said:


> Thank you for the life lesson.


No worries.

Careful you don't come unravelled.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

For the record, I am very capable and consider anyone racing at least sport class to be a capable mtbr that could go on to Expert. Have I missed something?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> You do know what these bikes and riders are capable of and not capable of IRL right? At 3000w I am not doing MX burnouts and tearing up the trail. Yes I can do more runs than average riders but with pratical equipment we are talking about 2 runs more than usual then I'm off the mountain. My bike weights 47lbs and I'm 170. Weight is not an issue compared to heavier riders.





chazpat said:


> All right ebikers, he has verified that he is riding an illegal ebike on trails. Your thoughts on this?





Gutch said:


> Being involved in Forestry and managing mega acres of timberlands, I can tell you that nothing pisses me off more than trespassers and poachers. DO I AGREE WITH 3000w ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLES? Yeah, ridden at legal off-road parks or private land.
> Most, emtb riders I've seen are 1st and foremost mtbrs. Period. Very few newbies.


Ok, we heard from Gutch.

rider95, mydogkoal: what do you think of ebikers illegally riding 3000W ebikes? He says he doesn't tear up the trails. Are you ok with this? Should 3000W ebikes be allowed if ebikes are?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

mydogkoal said:


> If any of you haters would actually ride an ebike, your opinion would change. Not that you would want one or think it was awesome but you would realize that they are heavy and cumbersome and not something that someone that uses strava would be attracted to. I would just like to keep up with my friends. I think most people buying them feel the same way.


I own one (for cargo/kid hauling). I can ride 20mph up a 15% grade with 120 pounds of kid on the back. If I were to take it on the trails I could be everyone's worst nightmare in about 30 seconds.

-Walt


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

How many watts is it? Like 5k?!


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Walt said:


> I own one (for cargo/kid hauling). I can ride 20mph up a 15% grade with 120 pounds of kid on the back. If I were to take it on the trails I could be everyone's worst nightmare in about 30 seconds.
> 
> -Walt


120 lbs of kid? Shouldn't they be driving?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

sXeXBMXer said:


> 120 lbs of kid? Shouldn't they be driving?


I guess if one steered, and one operated the brake, then the third could be lookout...



-Walt


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## hobbit (Apr 23, 2007)

I completely agree with the OP of this thread. Can't we just tall about ebikes constructively.
MTBR is a global site and access issues simply don't exist for pedelecs in a lot of countries - yet every thread veers off topic by US posters pushing access issue. I get that particular issue; but if the thread is about class1/2 peddlecs being used in an area where they are legal (including on appropriate mtb trails) then move one...theres nothing for you to see here.
I would actually also challenge the sticky on ebikes not being bicycles, as it's US centric - if your country defines an ebike legally as a bicycle, and until a dictionary inserts the word 'solely' human powered into the definition of a bicycle then pedelecs are bicycles. Anything else is a subjective interpretation of the definition based on words that are not in the definition. The definition is vague, and wide open to interpretation and the legal definition has clarified that. I do agree that ebikes are motorised vehicles and if u want to ride a trail where bicycles (inc pedelecs) are legal, but motorised vehicles are banned then you have a dilemma which I would expect will be clarified ultimately by legal challenge or a clarifying statement.
Anyway, can we proceed on a global basis. I don't really see why the 'regular' bike riders hang around this sub forum anyway - haven't u got enough sub forums of your own?


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

hobbit said:


> I completely agree with the OP of this thread. Can't we just tall about ebikes constructively.
> MTBR is a global site and access issues simply don't exist for pedelecs in a lot of countries - yet every thread veers off topic by US posters pushing access issue. I get that particular issue; but if the thread is about class1/2 peddlecs being used in an area where they are legal (including on appropriate mtb trails) than move one...theres nothing for you to see here.
> I would actually also challenge the sticky on ebikes not being bicycles, as it's US centric - if your country defines an ebike legally as a bicycle, and until a dictionary inserts the word 'solely' human powered into the definition of a bicycle then pedelecs are bicycles. Anything else is a subjective interpretation of the definition based on words that are not in the definition. The definition is vague, and wide open to interpretation and the legal definition has clarified that. I do agree that ebikes are motorised vehicles and if u want to ride a trail where bicycles (inc pedelecs) are legal, but motorised vehicles are banned then you have a dilemma which I would expect will be clarified ultimately by legal challenge or a clarifying statement.
> Anyway, can we proceed on a global basis. I don't really see why the 'regular' bike riders hang around this sub forum anyway - haven't u got enough sub forums of your own?


How about when a dictionary says a bike with a motor is not motorized....blah blah blah


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## hobbit (Apr 23, 2007)

I dont believe the dictionary definition of a bicycle mentions motorised however, if it did, then my friend you have a contradiction/ambiguity, which the legal statement on class 1/2 -pedelecs clarifies, at least as far as the UK is concerned. Elsewhere if u havent got a similar legal precedence u await the challenge/test case.


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## hobbit (Apr 23, 2007)

As I said, I get the access issues. But this whole sub forum is getting bogged down by that one issue, which is largely a US issue, to the detriment of being able to discuss anything else about ebikes.
I have a load of bikes. A fat bike, a carbon YT capra, a YT Tues downhill bike. I'm only interested in riding one way trails down as fast as possible so stick to bike parks, but ours generally don't have lifts. So the Levo gets me twice as many downhills in any ride. For my reasons for riding, the Levo is a natural choice, rides fantastic and gives me more fun than the others , bar the downhill bike which only gets used a couple of times a year on lift assisted days.
Everyone's reasons for riding are different and I wouldn't dream to judge others for their choices.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Legal definitions are basically just saying "for the purpose of how they will be regulated". Ever met a legally blind person? We usually think of a blind person as someone who can't see. Many legally blind people do not need a cane; etc, there is one guy on this site who is legally blind and he mountain bikes.

And as I've said previously, expecting the dictionary to spell out everything that a bicycle is not is ridiculous. Do you really think they need to say "solely":

_A bicycle, also called a cycle or bike, is a human-powered, pedal-driven, single- track vehicle, having two wheels attached to a frame, one behind the other._

So you think the "new" definition should be:

_A bicycle, also called a cycle or bike, is a human-powered, though sometimes also driven by electric motors up to a limited wattage which may vary where you live and is subject to change depending on the development of technology, pedal-driven, though sometimes also shaft driven by an electric motor, single- track vehicle, having two wheels attached to a frame, one behind the other._


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## hobbit (Apr 23, 2007)

I understand what your saying but as I work in the area of legislative technical compliance, how do the words , and only these words, not class say a levo as a bicycle.

"A bicycle, also called a cycle or bike, is a human-powered, pedal-driven, single- track vehicle, having two wheels attached to a frame, one behind the other.

It's all about what the words say, not what they don't say. Unfortunately common sense is rarely taken account, and until they change the definition to say 'excluding those with motors' then it's still a bicycle.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ok, sure I'm leaving a lot of stuff out but how is this looking?

"A bicycle, also called a cycle or bike, is a human-powered, pedal-driven, single- track vehicle, having two wheels attached to a frame, one behind the other, excluding those driven by motors. The pedals are not the same as in your car, but rotate around what is known as the bottom bracket, it rides on the ground, not through the air nor the water or through the ground, both the two wheels touch the ground so it's not some form of one of those stacked wheel unicycles, by "behind the other" we mean fully behind it and not just offset. And the wheels are attached to the frame so that they can rotate around their center, not just welded or bolted to it or fastened in some other manner". When we say "human powered" we mean the human is generating the power themselves, at the moment it is driven or by the momentum they have developed or the potential energy created by being headed downhill. We do not mean that a human developed a battery that is powering it, like we said earlier, driven by motors does not count even if they were developed by humans, which of course they were."


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## hobbit (Apr 23, 2007)

Nothing that your saying is incorrect but it's not how definition works. A definition uses the words only. Anything extra is inference or supposition on the part of the reader and as such is an opinion..... and we all know about opinions.
It's a poor definition and doesnt take account of advanced over time, but it's all we've got, and the ambiguity at least as far as class/2 pedelcs has been clarified in some regions by further legislation, saying class 1s are bicycles. 
I seem to be back at the start so I'm gonna give up now 🤣


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

hobbit said:


> I seem to be back at the start so I'm gonna give up now 🤣


Me, too.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

hobbit said:


> I understand what your saying but as I work in the area of legislative technical compliance, how do the words , and only these words, not class say a levo as a bicycle.
> 
> "A bicycle, also called a cycle or bike, is a human-powered, pedal-driven, single- track vehicle, having two wheels attached to a frame, one behind the other.
> 
> It's all about what the words say, not what they don't say. Unfortunately common sense is rarely taken account, and until they change the definition to say 'excluding those with motors' then it's still a bicycle.


 Country sub forums might be helpful. Common sense? Hmmm. Bikes are human powered, e bikes have a battery and a motor. That would be be something else, ya know like motorized. See also, my other post" e bikes are motorized vehicles" Cheers.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

mydogkoal said:


> Their target market is older mountain bikers who cannot climb anymore or I guess anyone who either cant or doesn't want to climb. When I refer to capable mountain bikers, I am referring to people who have the ability to qualify as an amateur racer. Not a weekend warrior type. I would be a capable mountain biker if I had a normal set of lungs.


What's wrong with your lungs if I may ask?


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Gutch said:


> Never go on an emtb! That's hilarious, look at all the manufacturers producing them. Who do you think their target market is?


People looking for moto's and finding a way out via e-bikes. Laziness....


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

leeboh said:


> Country sub forums might be helpful. Common sense? Hmmm. Bikes are human powered, e bikes have a battery and a motor. That would be be something else, ya know like motorized. See also, my other post" e bikes are motorized vehicles" Cheers.


Dang, are we still arguing about this! I'm an ebike owner, amongst other bikes. THEY ARE MOTORIZED. Everybody should agree on that deal. They need to be their own identity. Not that they're bad, just different.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Crankout said:


> What's wrong with your lungs if I may ask?


I asked this yesterday too. Not sure if he missed my post, or chose not to answer. Not wondering to 'qualify' him for an e-bike, but truly just curious since be brought it up.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Yeah.. that's the ticket. Trolling down the river...
(In reference to Crankout's remark)


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Did someone hear something?


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> Reminds me of a lot of the crap MV used to post 'proving' mountain bikers had personality disorders.


Reading Turner's rant gave me flashbacks to Mike Vandeman, alt.mountain-bike, 1993.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Dang, are we still arguing about this! I'm an ebike owner, amongst other bikes. THEY ARE MOTORIZED. Everybody should agree on that deal. They need to be their own identity. Not that they're bad, just different.


Totally on board with that. And no issue with sharing with other user categories like e-bikes where permitted by LMs.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

I can see an ebike in my future someday, but for now, at age 66, I ride more for fitness than sightseeing. I can still (mostly) sustain a long hard climb, and every time I do my CV system get just a little bit stronger. Plenty of time for e-mountain biking when I get old.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Cuyuna said:


> I can see an ebike in my future someday, but for now, at age 66, I ride more for fitness than sightseeing. I can still (mostly) sustain a long hard climb, and every time I do my CV system get just a little bit stronger. Plenty of time for e-mountain biking when I get old.


Ebikes are not meant to replace what youre riding. They are meant to supplement your stable. Like having a road, XC, and AM bike. I would advise anyone to try one if they haven't already. You might like it, but I'm almost certain you won't ride ebikes exclusively.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Phantastic79 said:


> Ebikes are not meant to replace what youre riding. They are meant to supplement your stable. Like having a road, XC, and AM bike. I would advise anyone to try one if they haven't already. You might like it, but I'm almost certain you won't ride ebikes exclusively.


No, no I wouldn't. Defeats the whole purpose of going and riding for me. Then again, I'm don't look for the easy way out of riding out.

Plus many of my rides would require me to stop and recharge at some point. No way I'd drag around a 40+ lbs bike after it dies.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Phantastic79 said:


> Ebikes are not meant to replace what youre riding. They are meant to supplement your stable. Like having a road, XC, and AM bike. I would advise anyone to try one if they haven't already. You might like it, but I'm almost certain you won't ride ebikes exclusively.


My current "stable" reflects the biking that I'm currently interested in. I have no need of an ebike in my stable at this time, just like I have no need of an XC bike, or a downhill bike, or a racing bike. Those things don't hold any interest for me. Someday, as my needs, wants, interestes, and capabilities change maybe I'll be interested in ebiking but currently, I need the exercise that road biking and all-mountain biking affords and ebiking adds nothing for me.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Phantastic79 said:


> Ebikes are not meant to replace what youre riding. They are meant to supplement your stable. Like having a road, XC, and AM bike. I would advise anyone to try one if they haven't already. You might like it, but I'm almost certain you won't ride ebikes exclusively.


 Demoed one, way heavy, how does one loft the front end up a foot over ledges and logs? Not an option for most of MA for off road. Ebike? No interest. At all. Maybe as a commuter one day. For now, my legs work fine. Plus there's the social stigma. If I showed up for a group ride? Much laughing would ensue, snickering as well. How could I look anyone in the eye? HP and ADA issues aside. No issues there.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

There's a lot of good information here:https://www.tetongravity.com/story/culture/the-fight-for-mountain-bike-trail-access


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)




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## hobbit (Apr 23, 2007)

Fascinating posts on the US access issues - political bollocks as usual. You can almost guarantee it takes the input of a politician to really f**k something up.
In the UK were working towards almost the polar opposite. Scotland already has open access where bikes can go anywhere horses or walkers are allowed, and it's likely England and Wales will follow at some point, although even now were only prohibited from footpaths.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

hobbit said:


> Fascinating posts on the US access issues - political bollocks as usual. You can almost guarantee it takes the input of a politician to really f**k something up.
> In the UK were working towards almost the polar opposite. Scotland already has open access where bikes can go anywhere horses or walkers are allowed, and it's likely England and Wales will follow at some point, although even now were only prohibited from footpaths.


 Well you can them foot paths, we call them trails. Can't compare, history, culture, norms and land rules. We don't have a "right to roam" like is so popular in the EU. Nor do we have crown land like in Canada. You ride there, we'll take care of ourselves without your help, customs or rules. Seems we Americans like to do stuff our own way. Just look how it worked out for you last time you tried to impose your ideals on us. Cheers.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Can I leave everyone with one last comment and we can close this thread? Some of you may hate ebikes and some of you may love them and most of you dont give 2 shits.

What really infuritates me the most in regards to access is horses. They cause the most trail damage and literally **** on the trails. 

***K those horses. 

BTW - I don't hate horses and have never ridden one and am not advocating we ban em. Just saying they cause noticable damage on our trails more than hikers and bikers.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Phantastic79 said:


> Can I leave everyone with one last comment and we can close this thread? Some of you may hate ebikes and some of you may love them and most of you dont give 2 shits.
> 
> What really infuritates me the most in regards to access is horses. They cause the most trail damage and literally **** on the trails.
> 
> ...


I don't hate ebikes. I would ride one but just not on a multi use trail. I think ebikes are good for some situations but can open up a Pandora's box of access issues where motorized transportation is prohibited.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Walt said:


> I guess if one steered, and one operated the brake, then the third could be lookout...
> 
> 
> 
> -Walt


oh yeah...multiple kids...duh! 3 @ 40lbs makes more sense


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Phantastic79 said:


> Can I leave everyone with one last comment and we can close this thread?


What? Uh, no I don't think so.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Gutch said:


> Yeah.. that's the ticket. Trolling down the river...
> (In reference to Crankout's remark)


True biking, to me, is about putting in the time and effort in order to improve oneself. That's the payoff. Sticking a motor of any kind on a bike is like cheating. Once you stick an assist of some kind on it, then I lose interest. It's not the same as biking. It's cheating the system.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Crankout said:


> True biking, to me, is about putting in the time and effort in order to improve oneself. That's the payoff. Sticking a motor of any kind on a bike is like cheating. Once you stick an assist of some kind on it, then I lose interest. It's not the same as biking. It's cheating the system.


Hear, hear. I see this in the music world as well with people thinking that they are guitar players b/c they can do Guitar Hero etc. I have actually had parents bring theri kid to a jazz band audition with the little toy guitar, thinking that the kid was going to "play guitar" in jazz band. um, no. That is not a guitar. Or people who just program loops and steal other music calling themselves "musicians". No, you are a programmer.

E bikes for people with disabilities are fine, or on paved trails where motors are allowed are also fine with me, but once someone is claiming to be in the same space as I am, without doing the work to ge there, I get sort of miffed. It is like a lack of respect for the work needed to advance.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Crankout said:


> True biking, to me, is about putting in the time and effort in order to improve oneself. That's the payoff. Sticking a motor of any kind on a bike is like cheating. Once you stick an assist of some kind on it, then I lose interest. It's not the same as biking. It's cheating the system.


I think this is the entire bottom-line argument of the anti-e-biking contingent of the bicycle community. Along with the belief that "true biking" as you define it should be the holy grail of bicycling.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Um yeah, I think I understand biking...lol. In the end, it's something you do for pleasure. I get it. Biked my whole life and will continue to. The "butt hurt" is kinda funny. What you do for fun, I don't care. No should you judge others. Same ****, round and round.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Cuyuna said:


> I think this is the entire bottom-line argument of the anti-e-biking contingent of the bicycle community. Along with the belief that "true biking" as you define it should be the holy grail of bicycling.


Yep pretty much the purest believe biking should be earned by hard work n pain and the time to but in to it so when a weekend warrior climbs a hill on a ebike with out the pain they get there feelings hurt . So ebikes and the ppl that ride them should go away so we don't hurt a small group of purest feelings . And the use of a E bike will not in anyway effect the enjoyment of the purest to use the same trail with e bikes .


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Crankout said:


> True biking, to me, is about putting in the time and effort in order to improve oneself. That's the payoff. Sticking a motor of any kind on a bike is like cheating. Once you stick an assist of some kind on it, then I lose interest. It's not the same as biking. It's cheating the system.





Cuyuna said:


> I think this is the entire bottom-line argument of the anti-e-biking contingent of the bicycle community. Along with the belief that "true biking" as you define it should be the holy grail of bicycling.


I agree with Crankout on what mountain biking is, or any form of cycling. Though if someone uses a motor, they are not cheating me unless it is a race and even still, they are not mountain biking so what does it matter. If they think they are mountain biking, they are really only kidding themselves, just like sXeXBMXer'e guitar hero "players".

btw, "I have actually had parents bring theri kid to a jazz band audition with the little toy guitar, thinking that the kid was going to "play guitar" in jazz band" is hilarious. I can't imagine how I would react to that, I don't think I could take it at all serious and the school would probably get complaints about how I reacted. And I did play guitar in my high school jazz band.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> Yep pretty much the purest believe biking should be earned by hard work n pain and the time to but in to it so when a weekend warrior climbs a hill on a ebike with out the pain they get there feelings hurt . So ebikes and the ppl that ride them should go away so we don't hurt a small group of purest feelings . And the use of a E bike will not in anyway effect the enjoyment of the purest to use the same trail with e bikes .


You confuse "feelings" with concerns. Concerns with the constant threats of losing access to to trails because of motorized vehicles used under the guise of 'this is how I recreate". Don't fool yourself, most people couldn't care less about you and your motorized toy, it's all about the Red Herrings the motorized crowd constantly tosses out to avoid the real conversation of threats of lost access. Oh, it "Purists" not purest.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I notice Gutch is still the only ebiker that responded to my questions directed to the ebikers based on what the OP is doing, the rest have ignored them. Does this tell us something?

_what do you think of ebikers illegally riding 3000W ebikes? He says he doesn't tear up the trails. Are you ok with this? Should 3000W ebikes be allowed if ebikes are?_


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

I'm not an e-biker and have no real desire to be one. I ride for fitness and an e-bike would be counterproductive to my personal goals for my biking hobby.

Relative to your question, I think that when we get to an e-bike that has enough power to roost the corner exits, we're talking MX, not e-MTB, and I'm opposed. They can pass me uphill all they want (everybody else does), but they gotta respect the work that the trail maintenance crews put in.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

I think it's pretty much established that ebikes aren't cheating anyone except the person who's riding one. It's a tired and vain argument to say that because it's cheating it shouldn't be allowed and distracts from the real issue regarding emtbs. 

So let's put that argument aside and focus on the real issue, which is ebikes are as motorized as any other mode of transportation that has motors, like motorcycles, atv's, mopeds, dirt bikes, and snow mobiles. No matter how the marketers try to dress it up by ,putting pedals on it and making it look just like a regular bike, it's a motorized vehicle plain and simple. There's a real threat as more an more ebikes are made to look just like regular mountain bikes, the opposition will just say, hey they're all the same and just ban all mountain bikes as has happened at most National Parks.

As of now, emtbs are considered motorized vehicles by most land managers including the BLM and National Parks and thus should not be ridden anywhere where motorized vehicles are expressly forbidden. I have a feeling this policy will be the law of the land going forward but has yet to be written down in most State jurisdictions. So as responsible mountain bikers I urge everyone to respect the rules and don't get moutain bikes banned on your trails and only ride emtbs where they are allowed. And if you see someone riding an emtb on non motorized trail report them to your local land managers.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> I'm not an e-biker and have no real desire to be one. I ride for fitness and an e-bike would be counterproductive to my personal goals for my biking hobby.
> 
> Relative to your question, I think that when we get to an e-bike that has enough power to roost the corner exits, we're talking MX, not e-MTB, and I'm opposed. They can pass me uphill all they want (everybody else does), but they gotta respect the work that the trail maintenance crews put in.


Cayuna, I'm confused. Don't you own one? And isn't that an e-bike motor for your avatar. Excuse me if I'm wrong. I just thought I'd read you talking about having one.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Lemonaid said:


> I think it's pretty much established that ebikes aren't cheating anyone except the person who's riding one. It's a tired and vain argument to say that because it's cheating it shouldn't be allowed and distracts from the real issue regarding emtbs.
> 
> So let's put that argument aside and focus on the real issue, which is ebikes are as motorized as any other mode of transportation that has motors, like motorcycles, atv's, mopeds, dirt bikes, and snow mobiles. No matter how the marketers try to dress it up by ,putting pedals on it and making it look just like a regular bike, it's a motorized vehicle plain and simple. There's a real threat as more an more ebikes are made to look just like regular mountain bikes, the opposition will just say, hey they're all the same and just ban all mountain bikes as has happened at most National Parks.
> 
> As of now, emtbs are considered motorized vehicles by most land managers including the BLM and National Parks and thus should not be ridden anywhere where motorized vehicles are expressly forbidden. I have a feeling this policy will be the law of the land going forward but has yet to be written down in most State jurisdictions. So as responsible mountain bikers I urge everyone to respect the rules and don't get moutain bikes banned on your trails and only ride emtbs where they are allowed. And if you see someone riding an emtb on non motorized trail report them to your local land managers.


Awesome post Lemonaid.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Lemonaid said:


> I think it's pretty much established that ebikes aren't cheating anyone except the person who's riding one. It's a tired and vain argument to say that because it's cheating it shouldn't be allowed and distracts from the real issue regarding emtbs.
> 
> So let's put that argument aside and focus on the real issue, which is ebikes are as motorized as any other mode of transportation that has motors, like motorcycles, atv's, mopeds, dirt bikes, and snow mobiles. No matter how the marketers try to dress it up by ,putting pedals on it and making it look just like a regular bike, it's a motorized vehicle plain and simple. There's a real threat as more an more ebikes are made to look just like regular mountain bikes, the opposition will just say, hey they're all the same and just ban all mountain bikes as has happened at most National Parks.
> 
> As of now, emtbs are considered motorized vehicles by most land managers including the BLM and National Parks and thus should not be ridden anywhere where motorized vehicles are expressly forbidden. I have a feeling this policy will be the law of the land going forward but has yet to be written down in most State jurisdictions. So as responsible mountain bikers I urge everyone to respect the rules and don't get moutain bikes banned on your trails and only ride emtbs where they are allowed. And if you see someone riding an emtb on non motorized trail report them to your local land managers.


Yes! We agree!


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yep. As long as it doesn't harm trail access, I am all for e-bikes everywhere. 

-Walt


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

jochribs said:


> Cayuna, I'm confused. Don't you own one? And isn't that an e-bike motor for your avatar. Excuse me if I'm wrong. I just thought I'd read you talking about having one.


Yeh, that's a new Yamaha motor for avatar, but no, I don't own one. Never had one, don't plan on getting one anytime soon, but at age 66 I'm keeping my options open.

It's true however that I have no problem with e-bikes on the trails that I ride. I think they are less problematic than, for example, the elderly couple I almost ran into on my road bike about an hour ago as they were putting along side-by-side on their three-wheelers on the local paved bike trail, or the kids on the local high school mountain bike team that run the trails balls-to-the-wall in groups of 10-12. OTOH, maybe they think _I'm_ the problem for riding so fast, or for riding so slow.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

chazpat said:


> All right ebikers, he has verified that he is riding an illegal ebike on trails. Your thoughts on this?


my thought.. i think you need to go away and stop creating drama here.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

av8or said:


> my thought.. i think you need to go away and stop creating drama here.


 Drama? Hmmm. Illegal e bikes on trails helps no one, pedal or motor riders.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

rider95 said:


> Yep pretty much the purest believe biking should be earned by hard work n pain and the time to but in to it so when a weekend warrior climbs a hill on a ebike with out the pain they get there feelings hurt . So ebikes and the ppl that ride them should go away so we don't hurt a small group of purest feelings . And the use of a E bike will not in anyway effect the enjoyment of the purest to use the same trail with e bikes .


Well, they are not bikes. No way around that one despite the e-whiners who would like to believe they are actually cyclists. Go hit the moto trails with those clown shoes.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Walt said:


> Yep. As long as it doesn't harm trail access, I am all for e-bikes everywhere.
> 
> -Walt


I was on one of my rides last night on the gravel bike that takes me on a shared-use trail, and along comes e-boy tooling past everyone in his lumpy glory. As far as I know, this trail is not for motorized vehicles. He must've stopped somewhere after he passed me, because he passed me again and I laughed as he went by. We then encounter one another later on, and he gives me a 'Hey bra!' glance and I shook my head and laughed again. Get a bike, work hard, and don't be a pretender.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Did he let a fart slip too?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Crankout said:


> I was on one of my rides last night on the gravel bike that takes me on a shared-use trail, and along comes e-boy tooling past everyone in his lumpy glory. As far as I know, this trail is not for motorized vehicles. He must've stopped somewhere after he passed me, because he passed me again and I laughed as he went by. We then encounter one another later on, and he gives me a 'Hey bra!' glance and I shook my head and laughed again. Get a bike, work hard, and don't be a pretender.


We've all moved past your purist bs argument, why not you?


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

jochribs said:


> Did he let a fart slip too?


Lumpy McGwiggins did, but to his credit it smelled of Axe.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Crankout said:


> Lumpy McGwiggins did, but to his credit it smelled of Axe.


Wonder if he sprayed some in his drawers to get another day out of them?


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Gutch said:


> We've all moved past your purist bs argument, why not you?


What are you arguing for on your end? They're not bikes. Go create some e-trails and have fun.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

"Get a bike, work hard, and don't be a pretender." 

In my experience, cyclists that usually say this, ARE NOT that hardcore. Posers say that crap.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Gutch said:


> "Get a bike, work hard, and don't be a pretender."
> 
> In my experience, cyclists that usually say this, ARE NOT that hardcore. Posers say that crap.


Hey Gutch...what about one's that say;

"Please don't get butt hurt if I pass you uphill on my ebike or Pivot 429 Trail."


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I figured you'd like that!


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Lol!


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

crankout speaks truth


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

Crankout said:


> I was on one of my rides last night on the gravel bike that takes me on a shared-use trail, and along comes e-boy tooling past everyone in his lumpy glory. As far as I know, this trail is not for motorized vehicles. He must've stopped somewhere after he passed me, because he passed me again and I laughed as he went by. We then encounter one another later on, and he gives me a 'Hey bra!' glance and I shook my head and laughed again. Get a bike, work hard, and don't be a pretender.


Man you're soooo cool.

Mail me a autograph!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

#1ORBUST said:


> Man you're soooo cool.
> 
> Mail me a autograph!




I wonder if they got passed by any fruitbooters or MILFs pushing strollers while measuring up?

Q: Who's the coolest, most hardcore biker on the kiddie path? 
A: No one.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

It's on purpose with the MILF's


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jochribs said:


> It's on purpose with the MILF's


 I have no idea what you're talking about, Mr Mirrored Sunglasses.


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> I wonder if they got passed by any fruitbooters or MILFs pushing strollers while measuring up?
> 
> Q: Who's the coolest, most hardcore biker on the kiddie path?
> A: No one.


I was on this hardcore ride and this motorcycle passes me.

I think to myself pfff this snowflake, I'm so much more hardcore!

Same Moto passes me again. He must of pulled over to smoke cigarettes and jerk off. Pff that snowflake will never crank out as hard as me! I chuckle to myself.

See moto at top of my .2mile climb I'm exhausted. Moto guy is doing doughnuts and clutch up power wheelies. I think this isn't even a moto trail is it?? Moto guy says, "hey what's up bra." I look away in disgust is this snowflake trying to say hi to the lord of bikes! This pleb prentender! I should say get a real bike you cheat but I keep silent. I do not talk to lower beings.

I rage down the trail rear wheel skidding all the berms and jumps. I get home and log onto mtbr so I can ***** about him on the internet.

Get a bike work hard don't be a pretender fellas!


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about, Mr Mirrored Sunglasses.


I have no idea what I'm talking about either. Just something I 'heard'.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jochribs said:


> I have no idea what I'm talking about either. Just something I 'heard'.


I heard yoga pants are a pretty cool thing too.
Never checked for myself though.

:arf:


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Hear hear! This thread has been needing some levity! 

Hey Now!


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)




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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

Crankout said:


> I was on one of my rides last night on the gravel bike that takes me on a shared-use trail, and along comes e-boy tooling past everyone in his lumpy glory. As far as I know, this trail is not for motorized vehicles. He must've stopped somewhere after he passed me, because he passed me again and I laughed as he went by. We then encounter one another later on, and he gives me a 'Hey bra!' glance and I shook my head and laughed again. Get a bike, work hard, and don't be a pretender.


You did nothing to stop him or tell him? and yet you are so vocal here in this forum. "get a bike, work hard, and don't be a pretender", should have told him that instead of posting that here. Big man on the keyboard but a "girlie man" outside of his house.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

127.0.0.1 said:


>


Lol!! Is there still a popcorn emoticon?


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## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

#1ORBUST said:


> I was on this hardcore ride and this motorcycle passes me.
> 
> I think to myself pfff this snowflake, I'm so much more hardcore!
> 
> ...


hahaha- Damn moto guys, hope he was at least on a 2 smoker! otherwise he was a real snowflake.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

"I love the smell of VP in the morning, it smells like victory"


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Phantastic79 said:


> You guys are killin me. Yes, ebike haters don't want ebikes on their trails. We get it. Can we somehow keep this forum on topic specifically about ebikes? Every thread here has the same arguments about trail access, noobs breaking down needing rescue, and how much many of you guys hate ebikes. Sifting through the same rhetoric makes this forum almost unusable. Is there anything we can do to solve this issue?
> 
> I found this forum a few months ago when I just started getting into cycling again after decades of hiatus. Why, because of an ebike. Now I ride as much as possible between work, honeydoos and endless Birthday parties and weekend get togethers. I freakin love it and want to talk and read about bikes all the time now.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Many hang out in this forum to derail and troll any discussion on the subject.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

They do it with impunity, and should be sent scurrying back under their rocks.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

It's hardly trolling. There's a lot at stake, both for proponents of e-bikes and those who prefer that e-bikes not be granted access to non-motorized trails and pathways. You can expect-um...lively debate anywhere and anytime the topic comes up until - and probably even after - such issues are decided by land managers and other interested parties.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Gutch said:


> "Get a bike, work hard, and don't be a pretender."
> 
> In my experience, cyclists that usually say this, ARE NOT that hardcore. Posers say that crap.


Say what you will, but e-bikes are not bikes. Is there not an Ebike Forum site out there somewhere for the non-purist, easy-way-out lot? And you goofy cats wonder why cyclists comment on your threads.

Look, they may be fun and all, but they are not bikes. That's all we are saying. I used to ride a mini-bike some 40 years ago, and had a blast doing so. I get it, but let's not act as if your ebikes are of the same category as bikes.


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

Crankout said:


> Say what you will, but e-bikes are not bikes.


Correct. An e-bike is what it is... an e-bike, nothing more, nothing less. It is neither a bike nor a motorcycle, and while it's somewhere in between, it's not at the midpoint. It's the close cousin of a bike.

Industry momentum ($$$) is behind the Class 1 e-bikes. Like them or not, they're a rapidly growing market, and in order for people to enjoy them, they need be used in the same venues as bikes - bike lanes, MUPs, and trails.

It's not difficult to see Class 1 e-MTBs safely sharing the same trails as MTBs. The speed limit on all trails here in OC is 10mph. I would venture a guess that 100% of MTBers break the speed limit, but folks have developed a sense of responsibility and discretion as to not spook horses, knock over hikers, and rip up the trails. E-MTBers will likewise need to develop a similar sense of responsibility on the climbs, and otherwise behave the same way as MTBers on the descents. Not really hard to imagine.

If you can grudgingly accept Class 1 ebikes, the battle to ban Class 2s and 3s will be that much easier. I'm likely going to be ordering a Class 1 very soon, but feel the same way as you with regards to Class 2s and 3s.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

#1ORBUST said:


> Man you're soooo cool.
> 
> Mail me a autograph!


We've located your Youtube channel, Mr. Robust:


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I have hrs of video showing how a e bike uses and interacts with other park users on Public trails from hikers to horse ppl dog walkers and trail runners , Its not about speed its the enjoyment of the ride . Its easy to stop n chat with other users of the trail when on a e bike no need to bomb down the long down hill carrying speed to start the climb up the other side nope just pedal right up . E bikers tend to be older experienced riders just wanting to enjoy the trail like any other Mt biker.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Crankout said:


> Say what you will, but e-bikes are not bikes. Is there not an Ebike Forum site out there somewhere for the non-purist, easy-way-out lot? And you goofy cats wonder why cyclists comment on your threads.
> 
> Look, they may be fun and all, but they are not bikes. That's all we are saying. I used to ride a mini-bike some 40 years ago, and had a blast doing so. I get it, but let's not act as if your ebikes are of the same category as bikes.


You are comparing a f'ing 40 year old mini bike to an ebike? Why would anyone care what you think?

How many Class 1 ebikes have you ever ridden?

Oh, none.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

EricTheDood said:


> Correct. An e-bike is what it is... an e-bike, nothing more, nothing less. It is neither a bike nor a motorcycle, and while it's somewhere in between, it's not at the midpoint. It's the close cousin of a bike.
> 
> Industry momentum ($$$) is behind the Class 1 e-bikes. Like them or not, they're a rapidly growing market, and in order for people to enjoy them, they need be used in the same venues as bikes - bike lanes, MUPs, and trails.
> 
> ...


As with so many things on the site, what may work for your trails will not necessarily work for other trails. Too many people assume their trails are typical of what all other trails are, be it discussing suspensions needs, gearing, or ebikes.

And I think accepting Class 1 ebikes will do the opposite, once you have accepted motorized vehicles as being ok, there is less reason to ban Class 2s and 3s, the door has been opened.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> You are comparing a f'ing 40 year old mini bike to an ebike? Why would anyone care what you think?
> 
> How many Class 1 ebikes have you ever ridden?
> 
> Oh, none.


And once again, this has no meaning. I've never shot heroin though I hear it is the greatest feeling in the world. I haven't ridden an ebike because I have no desire to. I actually like climbing.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

rider95 said:


> I have hrs of video showing how a e bike uses and interacts with other park users on Public trails from hikers to horse ppl dog walkers and trail runners , Its not about speed its the enjoyment of the ride . Its easy to stop n chat with other users of the trail when on a e bike no need to bomb down the long down hill carrying speed to start the climb up the other side nope just pedal right up . E bikers tend to be older experienced riders just wanting to enjoy the trail like any other Mt biker.


Should be no market for the Kenovo, then, eh?

-Walt


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> You are comparing a f'ing 40 year old mini bike to an ebike? Why would anyone care what you think?
> 
> How many Class 1 ebikes have you ever ridden?
> 
> Oh, none.


Well, you do raise a point Mr. Inuit. Your ebike is probably much faster than my minibike from days of yore.

We're glad that you at least continue to display your DIY e-bike prowess on the YouTubes:


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

fc said:


> Agreed. Many hang out in this forum to derail and troll any discussion on the subject.


Also many are right to point out that illegal poaching of trails on an eBike where they are expressly not allowed is a big danger to trail access for all pedal driving bike riders. FC - if you can get users to stop posting about illegally riding eBikes on trails that don't allow them, I am sure other users who are concerned about trail access will stop pointing it out.

Also if you could find a way to get users to stop calling eBikes regular bicycles it would solve many issues...


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

EricTheDood said:


> Correct. An e-bike is what it is... an e-bike, nothing more, nothing less. It is neither a bike nor a motorcycle, and while it's somewhere in between, it's not at the midpoint. It's the close cousin of a bike.
> 
> Industry momentum ($$$) is behind the Class 1 e-bikes. Like them or not, they're a rapidly growing market, and in order for people to enjoy them, they need be used in the same venues as bikes - bike lanes, MUPs, and trails.
> 
> ...


 Not quite agreeing with your line of thought here. Yes, e bikes seem to be growing in popularity. They need to be used where other motorized vehicles are currently used. Not all places allowed motorized bikes on the MUP, rules vary widely. Bikes lanes? I guess, do they allowed motorized scooters on them? Don't know. Trails? That is the big sticking point. MA rider here, motorized vehicles for the most part not allowed on multi use off road trails. It's motorized, nothing like a bike, just in looks. Class one vs, 2,3,8 and 2-5,000 watts? How would you tell them apart? 1,2 and 3 ? You can't. Over rides, controller mods are already out there. Once that door is open it will not be closed.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

leeboh said:


> Not quite agreeing with your line of thought here. Yes, e bikes seem to be growing in popularity. They need to be used where other motorized vehicles are currently used. Not all places allowed motorized bikes on the MUP, rules vary widely. Bikes lanes? I guess, do they allowed motorized scooters on them? Don't know. Trails? That is the big sticking point. MA rider here, motorized vehicles for the most part not allowed on multi use off road trails. It's motorized, nothing like a bike, just in looks. Class one vs, 2,3,8 and 2-5,000 watts? How would you tell them apart? 1,2 and 3 ? You can't. Over rides, controller mods are already out there. Once that door is open it will not be closed.


Also please note that in MA a Class 1 ebike IS considered a Motorized Vehicle when it comes to Trail Access. But that definition may vary from state to state, county to county and in some area's city to city. There is no Absolute law at the federal level that regulates what is and is not allowed on ALL Multi-use trails across the entire United States of America.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

EricTheDood said:


> Correct. An e-bike is what it is... *an e-bike, nothing more, nothing less. It is neither a bike nor a motorcycle, and while it's somewhere in between, it's not at the midpoint. It's the close cousin of a bike.*
> 
> Industry momentum ($$$) is behind the Class 1 e-bikes. Like them or not, they're a rapidly growing market, and in order for people to enjoy them, they need be used in the same venues as bikes - bike lanes, MUPs, and trails.
> 
> ...


Call it what you want, class 1, class 2 yadda yadda... the bottom line is if it has a motor it is "motorized" and by definition should only be ridden where motorized vehicles are allowed. Stating anything else and saying that there may be a "gray" area in between is only going to get all mtb's banned on non-motorized trails. Again, many many people have stated again again, there is no possible way to regulate the use of motorized bikes on the trails so the only solution is to keep them off non-motorized trails.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

chazpat said:


> And once again, this has no meaning. I've never shot heroin though I hear it is the greatest feeling in the world. I haven't ridden an ebike because I have no desire to. I actually like climbing.


Yes, it does have meaning. It means you have no idea what you are talking about.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Lemonaid said:


> Again, many many people have stated again again, there is no possible way to regulate the use of motorized bikes on the trails so the only solution is to keep them off non-motorized trails.


Gee, that's funny. Countries don't seem to have any problem regulating ebikes on trails all over Europe. Is the US stupid and inept or what?


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

leeboh said:


> Not quite agreeing with your line of thought here. Yes, e bikes seem to be growing in popularity. They need to be used where other motorized vehicles are currently used. Not all places allowed motorized bikes on the MUP, rules vary widely. Bikes lanes? I guess, do they allowed motorized scooters on them? Don't know. Trails? That is the big sticking point. MA rider here, motorized vehicles for the most part not allowed on multi use off road trails. It's motorized, nothing like a bike, just in looks. Class one vs, 2,3,8 and 2-5,000 watts? How would you tell them apart? 1,2 and 3 ? You can't. Over rides, controller mods are already out there. Once that door is open it will not be closed.


How many ebikes have you ever ridden?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> How many ebikes have you ever ridden?


 2 ,do I get a prize now? A haibike 500watt mid drive and some kind of commuter trek. How does that pertain to the conversation? And how do you tell a class 1,2 or 3 apart as they go by on the trail? Do tell.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

honkinunit said:


> Gee, that's funny. Countries don't seem to have any problem regulating ebikes on trails all over Europe. Is the US stupid and inept or what?


 As far as I know in countries like Norway, ebikes are banned on non motorized trails and laws are continuously evolving there as well. So if you're implying this access issues only happen in the US, you are wrong.

https://www.imba-europe.org/news/norwegian-conservation-agency-proposes-new-e-bike-legislation


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

leeboh said:


> And how do you tell a class 1,2 or 3 apart as they go by on the trail? Do tell.


class 1 would be pedalling, always..


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

rider95 said:


> I have hrs of video showing how a e bike uses and interacts with other park users on Public trails from hikers to horse ppl dog walkers and trail runners , Its not about speed its the enjoyment of the ride . Its easy to stop n chat with other users of the trail when on a e bike no need to bomb down the long down hill carrying speed to start the climb up the other side nope just pedal right up . E bikers tend to be older experienced riders just wanting to enjoy the trail like any other Mt biker.


That's been my experience as well.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

av8or said:


> class 1 would be pedalling, always..


 I'm always pedaling on my bike too, so there's that.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Gee, that's funny. Countries don't seem to have any problem regulating ebikes on trails all over Europe. Is the US stupid and inept or what?


The word you are looking for is Different. The US is vastly different from Europe. Some of the 50 states here are Vastly different from the other States as well. This country is made up of many different cultures and customs that vary wildly from state to state.

Because of that the rules and laws that govern access to Mutli-use trail system also have the ability to vary wildly.

Also the history of trail access and how wilderness area's are treated is much different in the US than in Europe, hence the rules the govern those wilderness area's are different than in Europe.

Just because something works in Europe has ZERO bearing as to how well it will work in the US.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

leeboh said:


> I'm always pedaling on my bike too, so there's that.


Read your question again. I believe my post is correct, wouldn't you agree?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Yes, it does have meaning. It means you have no idea what you are talking about.


How do I not know what I'm talking about? I know ebikes have motors, I know I've ridden motorcycles, I know I have ridden on mountain bike trails (on a mountain bike), I know I have no desire to ride an ebike, I know it is "fun" (I've never said it would not be enjoyable), I know using a motor to get up a hill is not something I'm interested in. I'm not looking for an easier way, when I ride and come to an intersection with a sign pointing one way saying "more difficult" and another sign pointing the other way saying "easier", I take the "more difficult" trail. You're not going to convince me that if I go out and ride an ebike, all of this is going to change. I don't climb just so I can go down.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I climb just so I can go down! But who cares? We can all agree that Ebikes are different? Let's all just leave it at that. I like the Ebikes for something a little different than the same deal over and over. I doubt it's MOST bikers only thing to ride, but if it is and they are legal, all cool with me. And the speed thing is really kinda bogus. I just ripped my Pivot today and I was probably speeding everywhere I safely could. We all do it.


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

chazpat said:


> As with so many things on the site, what may work for your trails will not necessarily work for other trails. Too many people assume their trails are typical of what all other trails are, be it discussing suspensions needs, gearing, or ebikes.
> 
> And I think accepting Class 1 ebikes will do the opposite, once you have accepted motorized vehicles as being ok, there is less reason to ban Class 2s and 3s, the door has been opened.


Fair point. Municipalities have the ultimate say in how their land is used, which addresses that issue.

As for Class 1s opening the doors to Class 2s and 3s, I'm on the fence about that. I typically don't agree with "slippery slope" viewpoints, but can see how it can happen when certain government officials have the inability to comprehend any sort of technical subject matter.

The laws regarding ebikes here in OC are ambiguous. Apparently a local government employee stated by email that ebikes are not allowed, but the county ordinance she cited contains no such language. So it really boils down to enforcement, i.e. the park rangers. They have discretion as to whether to cite an ebiker or not, and most likely they won't cite someone who's playing by the rules. I think this is a good way to go because it tests the waters without opening the floodgates.


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

leeboh said:


> And how do you tell a class 1,2 or 3 apart as they go by on the trail? Do tell.


This is an enforcement issue. Rangers will enforce the rules the same way they always have.

Breaking the speed limit? Not slowing down and yielding to hikers and horses? Skidding around turns? Prepare to get stopped, regardless of what you're riding. When you've been pulled over to the side of the trail, the ranger can then examine and photograph your bike.

Following the rules on an ebike? Have a nice day and move along.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

EricTheDood said:


> This is an enforcement issue. Rangers will enforce the rules the same way they always have.
> 
> Breaking the speed limit? Not slowing down and yielding to hikers and horses? Skidding around turns? Prepare to get stopped, regardless of what you're riding. When you've been pulled over to the side of the trail, the ranger can then examine and photograph your bike.
> 
> Following the rules on an ebike? Have a nice day and move along.


As they always have? I've been riding mtbs since 1985 around the western US and have never seen a ranger stop a mtb rider for any infraction. In fact, I can count on half of one hand the number of rangers I've ever seen on a trail. The reality is that there will continue to be little to no enforcement in the majority of places people ride bikes. It'll mainly be signage and self policing just like now.


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## DL723 (Sep 25, 2017)

Wow this has been an entertaining read. I got an ebike to cruise around town and take on vacations. Didn't realize there was this huge stigma against them.

I'm guessing nobody is going to change their mind from anything said on here. It's funny, when I hike or drive, I hate all the bikers around me. When I was riding on all purpose trails, horse riders and hikers looked like they hated me with a passion. Seems like everybody just dislikes anything different that interferes with what they're doing.

That being said, I can see why e-bikes should be their own class. To be honest, I don't even use the high setting on the road since it seems like it's trying to pedal for me haha. It's basically an old school moped at that point. I can see how somebody flying up a trail on high would disrupt the general vibe of the wilderness.

What if e-bikes designed for mountain biking were limited to 10-12 mph? They don't go downhill any faster than a normal bike and all the gains are from going up. (there's a youtube video of a guy on an e-bike racking a light weight xc hardtail. All the gains were basically on the hills) The trick is identifying what's for mountain biking...which I think you can just do by saying anything with a rear suspension or more than 80 mm of travel on the front suspension. At that point, nobody is flying up the hill and those who still want to have fun can climb at the same rate as everybody else albeit exerting a lot less energy?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

EricTheDood said:


> The laws regarding ebikes here in OC are ambiguous. Apparently a local government employee stated by email that ebikes are not allowed, but the county ordinance she cited contains no such language. So it really boils down to enforcement, i.e. the park rangers. They have discretion as to whether to cite an ebiker or not, and most likely they won't cite someone who's playing by the rules. I think this is a good way to go because it tests the waters without opening the floodgates.


That has actually been discussed at length in some other posts in this forum and the only real answer is we will not know how the trails will be managed until someone actually has an honest face to face interaction with a Park Ranger or Police Officer who has the right to cite and enforce out on the trail. At that point we will learn if a Citation is issued, a warning given, or nothing at all. Until then it is all speculation.



EricTheDood said:


> Following the rules on an ebike? Have a nice day and move along.


Personally I think that will be the case for the vast majority of Class 1 eBike users on MUT's. But again only time will tell for certain.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

DL723 said:


> Wow this has been an entertaining read. I got an ebike to cruise around town and take on vacations. Didn't realize there was this huge stigma against them.


If you re-read most of the threads in this forum there is zero issue for the most part with anyone riding an eBike around town, the issue comes up when they are riding Mountain Bike Style eBikes on multi-use dirt trails where they are explicitly not allowed by city/county/state or federal ordinances and laws.

Please do not mix up the two.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Harryman said:


> As they always have? I've been riding mtbs since 1985 around the western US and have never seen a ranger stop a mtb rider for any infraction. In fact, I can count on half of one hand the number of rangers I've ever seen on a trail. The reality is that there will continue to be little to no enforcement in the majority of places people ride bikes. It'll mainly be signage and self policing just like now.


Same thing in New England. Though only time I've seen a bike pulled over it was my buddies for passing a state trooper going downhill on a seasonal dirt road that allows camping. The trooper was cruising along about 20 checking passes on cars along the road and they passed him on each side at well over 40mph. Not too happy about that. Luckily they were half drunk at the time.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DL723 said:


> It's funny, when I hike or drive, I hate all the bikers around me.


That is a problem.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Same thing in New England. Though only time I've seen a bike pulled over it was my buddies for passing a state trooper going downhill on a seasonal dirt road that allows camping. The trooper was cruising along about 20 checking passes on cars along the road and they passed him on each side at well over 40mph. Not too happy about that. Luckily they were half drunk at the time.


I have heard from multiple people but not witnessed in real life a rumor of a few parks in the SF Bay area that there are rangers setting up "speed traps" on the downhill sections and give anyone a ticket for going over 15MPH. This can be really hard to do on some of these sections and IIRC its like a $300 ticket.


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

Phantastic79 said:


> I have heard from multiple people but not witnessed in real life a rumor of a few parks in the SF Bay area that there are rangers setting up "speed traps" on the downhill sections and give anyone a ticket for going over 15MPH. This can be really hard to do on some of these sections and IIRC its like a $300 ticket.


I grew up riding in the bay area in the mid to late 90s. Not only have I witnessed folks getting stopped, but I've been yelled at by the rangers while cruising along some fireroads at 20mph. I was a teenager at the time. Little did they know they I had spotted them way back and had already slowed down from about 35mph.



Harryman said:


> As they always have? I've been riding mtbs since 1985 around the western US and have never seen a ranger stop a mtb rider for any infraction. In fact, I can count on half of one hand the number of rangers I've ever seen on a trail. The reality is that there will continue to be little to no enforcement in the majority of places people ride bikes. It'll mainly be signage and self policing just like now.


Good point.

Come to think of it, I've never seen rangers either in singletrack or any of the shuttle-able DH trails. The speed traps were always setup in areas accessible by pickup truck.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> I have heard from multiple people but not witnessed in real life a rumor of a few parks in the SF Bay area that there are rangers setting up "speed traps" on the downhill sections and give anyone a ticket for going over 15MPH. This can be really hard to do on some of these sections and IIRC its like a $300 ticket.


Yeah, but the SF Bay area (and quite a few other places in Cali it seems) are 'special' sorts of places. The rest of the country doesn't operate remotely like that, thankfully.


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