# Tapered head tube development



## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

We are running out of our machined headtubes and I'm looking into having an alternative made, taking into account the criticisms of the existing tube; weight and length being the main ones, cost being the other. If you aren't aware of the current tube, details are here. I'm looking into an alternative process that will allow a tube with a constant 1.2mm wall thickness and a length of around 200mm but still with a short taper to allow it to be cut to about 100mm. Headset fitment will still be EC34 at the top and EC44 at the bottom

So why am I telling you this? Cos I want your money of course! In order to make this worthwhile I would need some preorders from other builders. Pricing isn't confirmed yet but should be at least half the price of the current tube, with potential for it to be less if we get enough orders. Initially I'm not interested in the 'I'll have one' people as I need a few significant orders to make it worthwhile, once a batch goes ahead there should be enough for any single orders. I would want a little bit of good faith with money up front (once a price and design have been confirmed) and in return I am open to suggestion on the design, although I think I've covered the problems peple had before.

If I don't get enough takers on this, it is pretty likely that we will not be offering the tube anymore.

(Walt, please move/delete this if this is not appropriate use of the forum)


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Seems fine to me*

In theory you should probably buy an ad but I think this is a community-building effort (I cannot imagine you're going to get rich selling head tubes!) more than anything so unless I get a complaint I say you're good.

-Walt


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## shandcycles (Jan 15, 2008)

What material?


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

Material is not decided yet but either 4130 or Reynolds 631

Matt

PS thanks Walt


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## shandcycles (Jan 15, 2008)

Why would I use a tapered headtube over a regular 44mm ID headtube? Genuine question btw, I'm just not sure of the advantages of a tapered tube over what we currently use. Weight? Are there more headsets with a smaller top cup available? 

Cheers

Steven


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

Mainly for aesthetics but also to better match the headtube diameter to the top tube diameter. Top cups available from all major manufacturers so not an issue there

Matt


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

Well, judging by the rip-roaring-success-fest that is this thread, no one wants them so I probably won't bother pursueing it any further. I'm also going to hold onto the remaining tubes we have so they are no longer available for sale to other builders. 

Matt


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

Would they be drawn or machined?


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

The new tubes would be swaged if I can get enough people involved (looks unlikely)

Matt


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Without the upper butt, the headset will overlap the wall, making it look cheap.

And the butt on the Paragon makes them very warp-resistant. Leave enough material for a good ream. Paragon's .5mm is slightly overkill.

(edit: I should read more closely. I was thinking a ZS upper.)


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

My plan would be to always use the headset with an external cup (you have to at the top anyway) so it will always overlap and will look no different to a conventional headtube with the same wall thickness.

I was planning something in the region of .25 undersize but not decided yet


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

Sorry for dragging up an old thread, but I've finally got some prices from the guys who'd be making them so although I'd said I was giving up on it I thought I'd at least tell everyone the price and see if that makes any difference. The situation is still the same, if I don't get enough orders, it won't happen. Design is still being finalised but we are looking at a 200mm tube, 44mm lower, 34mm upper, cut-able to roughly 100-120mm (tbc), wall thickness is going to be variable, 1.6mm at the bottom to about 1.2mm as the top (again tbc), material is 4130.

The price is still a little open to change, but I hope it won't change much. If it does go ahead I will be keeping some in stock to sell individually (hence the single price) but I'm not taking preorders for singles.

Single tube - £17.50
10 tubes - £165
25 tubes - £400
50 tubes - £780

I need to get around 80 tubes preordered to make this work so let me know if you are interested. Either reply here or email [email protected] and I will keep you in the loop as I know more

Thanks,
Matt


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

I'd order 2 or 3 FWIW. Not the #'s you need but there might be enough of us hobbyists out there to tip the scales.


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## RCP FAB (Jun 15, 2011)

What would shipping to the states cost on these?


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## tektonics (Feb 1, 2006)

Matt,
For what it's worth, I am machining 44/49 tapered head tubes from Solid AISI 1045.
Up to 230mm in length with a .8mm wall thickness. 
The taper is a graceful tangent curve from one dia. to the next. The weight is @ 1 gram per mm in length. 
My prices are very reasonable, on par with PMW on the shorter lengths and cheaper on the longer lengths.
I am also happy to machine custom lengths and discuss qty discounts.

feel free to contact me if you have any questions or interest.

I would post photos, but I am not allowed to yet...

[email protected] dot com


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*.8mm?*

I would not want to ride something with a .8mm wall head tube, I don't think. Especially if it's turned on a lathe rather than drawn. *Especially* if it's made from carbon steel. But that's just me.

-W



tektonics said:


> Matt,
> For what it's worth, I am machining 44/49 tapered head tubes from Solid AISI 1045.
> Up to 230mm in length with a .8mm wall thickness.
> The taper is a graceful tangent curve from one dia. to the next. The weight is @ 1 gram per mm in length.
> ...


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

I totally agree with Walt on that wall thickness, that's why our original tube was so thick and also why these ones would be thinner (but not that thin)

I'm not sure on postage yet as I've not worked out how much they will weigh and therefore how much it will cost. It shouldn't be crazy and for larger orders I'm sure we can come to an 'arrangement'

Matt


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

18bikes said:


> I totally agree with Walt on that wall thickness, that's why our original tube was so thick and also why these ones would be thinner (but not that thin)
> 
> I'm not sure on postage yet as I've not worked out how much they will weigh and therefore how much it will cost. It shouldn't be crazy and for larger orders I'm sure we can come to an 'arrangement'
> 
> Matt


might be better to ship the lot to the US and have it parceled out from there with USPS flat rate boxes. Might be able to find someone located in the midwest who would take care of it in trade for a couple headtubes.........


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

j-ro said:


> might be better to ship the lot to the US and have it parceled out from there with USPS flat rate boxes. Might be able to find someone located in the midwest who would take care of it in trade for a couple headtubes.........


Thats a very good idea, if anyone wants to volunteer for that please email me. A special price on their order of tubes would be worked out.

I've had a couple of people say they'd prefer a ZS44 upper ans EC49 so I'll throw that out as an option, but even if 1000 people say they want, I probably won't do it because I just don't see the point. The main reason I've been given for wanting it is to be able to fit an angleset with a tapered steerer but my response to that would be that it's a custom frame, shouldn't you be building it with the right head angle to start with? Yes I realise some people like to fiddle and fine tune things but it's not most of us. My arguements against 44/49 are:

-weight
-appearance with typical TT and DT diameters
-a straight 44mm tube achieves almost the same thing, with the only downside being angleset with straight steerer only
-I can't use Reynolds 631 for a tube that big as the material isn't available that size
-cost, a bigger tube and more work will drive the cost back up

and finally, and this is a big one, it's not what I want.

Matt


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## TacoMan (Apr 18, 2007)

Since you sold these before (I assume) only you would know what the demand might be. You either have to bite the bullet and make the investment and hope for the best or not. It would be great to have pre-orders, takes the risk out of investing in inventory.


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

We have sold something similar in the past but as the length, weight and price are all different (better in all cases) it's difficult to compare. To be totally honest, I don't think the demand _is_ there, hence me wanting pre-orders. I am talking to some bigger guys about whether they would want some, but it doesn't look good at the moment


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

I was just looking at the new Cotic Soul w/tapered HT and it looks really nice! I would like having a similar tube as an option. But I am only a hobby builder at this point and unable to order in quantity. I do hope you go through with it.


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

Yes the Soul does look nice, I wonder where they got the idea from...........................................


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

18bikes said:


> Design is still being finalised but we are looking at a 200mm tube, 44mm lower, 34mm upper, cut-able to roughly 100-120mm (tbc), wall thickness is going to be variable, 1.6mm at the bottom to about 1.2mm as the top (again tbc), material is 4130.


Why thicker at the bottom, where the diameter is larger? If anything, seems like it could be slightly thinner at the bottom, or at least the same thickness throughout. Is it just a necessity of the targeted manufacturing process?

BTW, I modeled a 34/44 taper HT in SolidWorks with typical steel top and downtubes and I think aesthetically this is the bomb. I'd buy 2-3 if it was available.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Keep in mind*

My experience with getting stuff made for framebuilders goes something like this:
-I propose what I want, am open to suggestions.
-People make ridiculous suggestions and complain, because this is the internet.
-I have the part made.
-People whine, maybe, but they buy the part anyway.

In the grand scheme of things, a couple grand is not a big investment if you're running a business. Preorders are great but that business model has a bad rep at this point due to idiots on kickstarter, so... believe in yourself and make the damn things. Make what you want. I bet people will buy them.

HJ or Nova might be willing to be your US distributor, it's worth asking.

-Walt



18bikes said:


> We have sold something similar in the past but as the length, weight and price are all different (better in all cases) it's difficult to compare. To be totally honest, I don't think the demand _is_ there, hence me wanting pre-orders. I am talking to some bigger guys about whether they would want some, but it doesn't look good at the moment


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Regarding "demand": to my knowledge, a 34/44 taper HT is not currently commercially available. But that doesn't mean there is no demand. I'd put one in my shopping cart right now if I could find one on the web. Could be an opportunity to capture the marketplace.

Anyone...please let me know if I'm wrong and this part is commercially available. I seriously want to use this on my next frame.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I would like to use one as well. Salsa has a tapered head tube and I think it looks a lot better than having what looks like a Foster's can glommed onto the front of the bike


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

I would like to ask this question.

Advantages? To my knowledge both 34/44 pressfit headsets use the same size bearing. Mitering the downtube becomes more complex.

So what advantage is there? Is there a structural reason? or is this an aesthectic only kind of thing?

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, but really trying hard to see a benefit, as I don't see 44mm straight or 34mm failing.

It would make sense to me if the lower bearing itself were larger, but I am only seeing this from a press fit headset perspective rather than the integrated one.

Can anyone expand on this thought?

Eric


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I see no structural benefits either, but I prefer to make frames that look good to me. Yes, it would be harder. I don't think I will ever build a frame for an integrated headset, so that's not a concern


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

wasnt it a guy who said lets use a big press in cup and a smaller press in cup then went to fox or cane creek who invented it ,cant remember but i recall reading it posted on here as a press release by one of them

Deddacciai also make these and still have them stock on the shelf or did last time they wanted about 70 euro each or 50 euro if you ordered 10

there is a weight advantage over a full 44 tube

ps klein beat everyone to it about 17 years ago iirc the patent expired and e2 appeared call me cynical


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

^^^I think you're thinking about a guy who figured out that the pressfit 44 heat tube size was big enough to do a 1.5" tapered if you used an external cup. I wondered why they never made a external cup 44m for the top cup for a straight 1.5 but then straight 1.5" steerers pretty much died up so I guess they read the tea leaves correctly.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Sean Chaney*

Our own Mr. Vertigo is responsible. Then he and I annoyed the hell out of Cane Creek, King, Paragon, and True Temper to get to where we are today.

-Walt



Feldybikes said:


> ^^^I think you're thinking about a guy who figured out that the pressfit 44 heat tube size was big enough to do a 1.5" tapered if you used an external cup. I wondered why they never made a external cup 44m for the top cup for a straight 1.5 but then straight 1.5" steerers pretty much died up so I guess they read the tea leaves correctly.


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

It's all about the aesthetics for me. With this HT I can run a tapered steerer without the "Foster's" look, as Unterhausen put it. A straight 44mm HT looks out of proportion when joined to skinny steel tubes. I have an industrial design degree so I can't help but consider aesthetics when designing...anything.

I think part of being a custom framebuilder is about going the extra mile and differentiating yourself from the mass producers.

Call me weird, but I'd also enjoy the challenge of the complex miters necessitated by this design.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Of course you are weird;

Now that we have established that, keep up the good work!


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*It looks normal to me now*

After ~50 bikes using the straight 44mm head tube, it no longer looks weird. In fact 1 1/8 head tubes look really tiny and odd to me now. Go figure. I can see how if you do mostly 1 1/8 (I'd say 75% of my frames are for taper these days) it would look odd the other way.

I try to differentiate myself with spot-on geometry and design rather than trying to make things look neat, because most of my customers seem to be 5k mile/year type psychos who couldn't care less what their bike looks like. If your customer base is more interested in a particular look that might be more of a selling point, I guess.

-Walt



golden boy said:


> It's all about the aesthetics for me. With this HT I can run a tapered steerer without the "Foster's" look, as Unterhausen put it. A straight 44mm HT looks out of proportion when joined to skinny steel tubes. I have an industrial design degree so I can't help but consider aesthetics when designing...anything.
> 
> I think part of being a custom framebuilder is about going the extra mile and differentiating yourself from the mass producers.
> 
> Call me weird, but I'd also enjoy the challenge of the complex miters necessitated by this design.


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Walt, I respect your commitment to function first and foremost. I really do. Personalized fit and feel should be the #1 goal for a custom performance-oriented bike. Aesthetic flourishes are just icing on the cake, really. You are right....people look for different things in a bike. I know plenty of riders that don't care much what their bike looks like, as long as they can ride the $hit out of it.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

i really like the look of thin tubed steel, run off the mill bikes from back in 90-93ish so I kinda like the regular 1 1/8 look. but i'm posting here merely as a "consumer" as of now, planning to get a tig welder soon though. But purely estethically I really like how it looked back in the day, I would only have made the bikes an inch longer for a given size or so like it is today.

I'll be quiet now.

carry on.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I was at the bike shop today and straight 44mm tubes are starting to look normal to me too. I really think it depends on the fork though. A full suspension fork in a 35mm head tube is starting to look spindly. I saw a road bike with a unicrown fork and a 44mm head tube and it really looked ridiculous


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

I hear what you are saying about just committing to it, but it's just not a high enough priority for us to take that much of a risk on it. It took a long time for the other tubes to get noticed and has taken a good while to sell what was a fairly small batch.

The thicker wall at the bottom is a consequence of the process. I'm trying to get it 1.2mm constant

44mm does use a bigger bearing, it is external rather than internal

Although my preference is for a tapered tube, it's not a big enough concern that I'm going to take a risk with it. If it doesn't go ahead, I will be happy enough using a straight 44mm tube.


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

Ok, bit of an update. I've been pushed slightly with this so am looking at numbers again. Some people who have expressed interest will have just recieved an email, if you haven't and would like to then email me ([email protected]).

Here is the basic rundown though:

44mm ID lower with 20mm insertion
100mm taper
remainder of 200mm tube at 34mm ID
1mm wall thickness
Reynolds 631

Price is looking similar to a 150/170mm paragon 44mm headtube depending on how many you want.

Matt


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

I don't think these specs work for me. If I leave only 10mm @ 34mm ID, that means my minimum tube length is 130mm? And 1mm wall thickness seems a bit thin.


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

There has been a development which _should_ make this happen with availability for smaller orders with no pre-orders. I'm working through it at the moment and hope to have news soon. I will keep this thread updated as and when I work things out.

The design has already been changed and will likely be 1.25mm wall, 40mm parallel at the bottom, 85mm of taper then parallel to a total length of 200mm. This should make the tube a virtually universal fit for everything from 100mm to 200mm.

Matt


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

OK, now we're getting somewhere! These specs I can live with. :thumbsup:


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

18bikes said:


> The design has already been changed and will likely be 1.25mm wall, 40mm parallel at the bottom, 85mm of taper then parallel to a total length of 200mm. This should make the tube a virtually universal fit for everything from 100mm to 200mm.


I guess I don't actually know how deep my headset cup or reamer actually is, but I would think (100mm-85mm)/2 = 7.5mm would be on the short side?


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

Sorry, yeah that was a typo, should be 75mm. I was thinking roughly 15mm lower/10mm upper or 12.5mm each. Obviously you can add a few mm to get more insert if needed


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

Check.


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## e.gellie (May 3, 2008)

So what's the current availability of tapered head tubes? The new Enigma Elite Road bike looks great... better than a straight 44mm headtube I think.

[edit] great pics here... Just in: Enigma Elite HSS | road.cc

I'd prefer a to use 'plain' press-fit headset like a Chris King Inset2 but still have the Integrated look.

The Enigma Elite has a Columbus tapered head tube; that headtube would seem to require silver-soldered-in upper and lower rings for the integrated headset (Campag standard I think). Facing the headtube then soldering in the races. I can't find a reamer for that new larger lower race. From the drawing I think that headtube doesn't have the correct i.d.'s for an Inset2 headset.

The 18bikes tapered tube is listed but 'not available' and only 130mm long (I'll email them for availability)

SolidBikes have one at 195mm long and reinforcement rings are available, but the wall thickness and weight aren't shown.

Anyone got more info?


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

e.gellie said:


> So what's the current availability of tapered head tubes? The new Enigma Elite Road bike looks great... better than a straight 44mm headtube I think.
> 
> I'd prefer a to use 'plain' press-fit headset like a Chris King Inset2 but still have the Integrated look.
> 
> ...


I've used the Solid Bikes headtube once and I highly recommend it. It's 1.25mm wall, I believe. It's the same wall thickness as the True Temper 44mm headtube. It's a nice headtube, can cut it down pretty short and the rings are very nicely done but not necessary with that wall thickness. I brazed the rings on first to help prevent any ovalization while welding.


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

Just to update everyone (and probably kill this thread forever), I will not be pursuing this any further. I've not had requests from customers for it (so have mainly been using 44mm tubes) and even if I did I would simply order the Solid Bikes tube pictured above. It's exactly what I wanted to achieve and I see no benefit in getting my own made

Thanks for the interest and sorry it's taken me so long to admit failure, hopefully no one has been hanging on waiting for me to do it.

PS I'm pretty sure the 130mm long machined tubes are all gone now but I may have 1 or 2 hanging around if anyone is really interested (although I don't see why you'd want it over the Solid Bikes one??)

Matt


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