# SHAME SHAME - shimano saint and XTR Brakes....



## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

I have always loved Saint brakes. I have had 800, 810 and now 820's. The 820's have really been a PITA for me.

How many riders have had this happen with the newer 820 Saint and XTR Brakes. Supposely it is a known problem.

You are racing down the trail and when you go to use the brakes, they suddenly disapear - lever goes to bar ??

or you lighly just pull the brakes, barely nothing at all, and they feel like something is holding them back....but they lock the brake up causing you to crash or pretty close to crashing.

How many times do you re-bleed them to make it right. Because in the past that was the problem solver, but over and over it happens again and again ??? How many have replaced brake lines and still have the problem ????

I have heard from a few industry guys that shimano knows there is a problem but won't do a re-call.....*All the while, people are getting hurt....check out Gwin's Crash at Leogang 2012*.

If you call service dept. They don't admit there is a problem, but Industry insiders say there is a problem with the needle inside the brake levers and shimano has a fix for the problem but is not releasing them....further endangering the riders.

so who else has problems of

brakes going to bars or locking up??

re-bleeding many many times but same thing happens??

Tell your stories about your crashes from this too... Maybe shimano will wise up and get solution out before others get hurt


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## meSSican (Aug 8, 2010)

I have had nothing but trouble with Saint 810 & 820s; XT trail, and XTR brakes. They all leaked from the calipers which almost killed me several times. Srapped my 3rd pair of Saints from my Jedi for Hope V4s and damn glad i did. My 3rd set of XTRs are holding decently on my trail bike but power isn't there.

Their service dept is easy to deal with but not a situation I want to go through for $400 brakes.


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## blcman (Feb 1, 2007)

No crash here yet, but I have "learned" that I need to constantly pump the levers during runs to make sure there is pressure in the master cylinder. 
A new DH season is approaching again so I will see how it goes this year with the Saints.


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## supersedona (Dec 17, 2012)

Go figure... 15 yrs on 525s with one fluid change...


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

My XT brakes work well now... But were a pain at first. I'm convinced some of their fancier rotors don't do anything more than normal rotors except howl. As for the Saint brakes... My old Saints (first gen black and gold) were shitty to bleed and were tough to setup. I replaced the levers to the newer version and I still get the levers going to the bar unless I pump them. Might be my next upgrade. 

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## Fix the Spade (Aug 4, 2008)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> I have always loved Saint brakes. I have had 800, 810 and now 820's. The 820's have really been a PITA for me.


On 820s since March.

No horror stories, but the the power is less consistent than I was expecting and even at full stop not appreciably more than the Hopes they replaced. I've noticed they deliver more power if I keep them hot, which means lever dragging.

Considering some new Hopes before the year ends, the Saints are proving underwhelming.


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

I specifically got the older 988 XTR's instead of the new 9020's because of the problems. They seem to be related to a flaw in the lever design as a lot of 9020 owners are buying 988 levers!

Have FUN!

G MAN


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## Pau11y (Oct 15, 2004)

I recently replaced all my 988 and 9020 lever w/ 820s. It was on sale and I ended up w/ a much more solid end-of-stroke dead stop than on either version of the XTR levers, but much more so w/ respect to the 9020. I bleed them ala Avid method...pulling a vacuum to rid the dissolved gases from the mineral oil and have gotten pretty consistent performance out of the ones on my Nomad 3 and High tower. There's also a set on my '15 Jedi. But just to be clear, I have XTR caliper on all bikes for rear and 820 caliper on the front. The hoses on the Nomad are Shitmano, but the Hightower has Jagwire and the Jedi has Goodridge.


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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

I'll make a recommendation here... 

Over the years I've used Hayes and Avid. The Hayes have always worked, never needed to be bled and are one of the most reliable bike parts I've ever owned, including the Stroker Aces I've been running since 2010. But for DH with me on them, they're weaker than my Code's. 

The original Code's were great... When they worked. The levers would get stuck in on them and not return. Avid said it was the seals due to the fluid. Really? I have Hayes from 1998 that still work. 

My answer? Hope. 

A buddy had the E4's and I liked the feel. I bought the V4's and have absolutely no issues. The bleeding is so simple, the seals are astounding (so good that after I cut the front hose, I probably didn't need to rebleed, but did to be safe), the power is better than the Code's, modulation is the best I've had. The "standard" pads are powerful and quiet and the lever stays where it should (the codes did what you're explaining where they'd be close to the bar, then out of nowhere you're at full reach) ... I'm on my second year and have ZERO complaints. 

Brakes are one of those parts to me where reliability comes before anything else. You guys aren't the only ones with this issue. I thought I was stuck between Avid and Shimano cause that's what all the bikes come with. Don't leave Hope out of your options. 

Fwiw, I'm running the Hope Tech3 V4's with the Standard pads. These brakes come with Goodridge SS braided lines and 2 pairs of pads (Standard and Sintered). The sintered squealed, so I went back to the Standard ones with no complaints or lack of stopping power/modual-ability. 

Ttyl Fahn


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

supersedona said:


> Go figure... 15 yrs on 525s with one fluid change...


same here with a set of M755's...


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## azdog (Nov 16, 2004)

I've noticed it on a couple of runs recently but only for a short moment. Feels like the lever is not engaging. I let go and squeeze again and there it is. They have been more reliable than my guides though which I have had to warranty one lever recently and encountered brake fade on longer runs.


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

I only have the problem when the bike is upside down on the saints. Like flipping it over to work on it. Flip bike back and brakes take 2-5 squeezes to noramlize.

Doesnt happen on the xtrs i have both xtr's and saints.

Never happened when im riding though. That would suck!


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

^^That means you need a bleed as there is air in the calipers!!!

FWIW I've owned them all and my XTR's cost 1/4 the price of Hopes and have never had one issue so... it is only with the latest iteration that they're having problems. And the latest versions are their least expensive yet... looks like they cut a few too many corners this time around. Shimano won't stand for bad products or losing market share so I would expect this to get corrected soon.

Have FUN!

G MAN


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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

Even pro's have issues with their cheap brakes.






There's a difference between $150 brakes and $225 brakes for sure. The $75 per set shouldn't kill you either. Why have a $3,000 carbon frame and cheap brakes? It makes no sense.

Ttyl, Fahn


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

Gman086 said:


> ^^That means you need a bleed as there is air in the calipers!!!
> 
> FWIW I've owned them all and my XTR's cost 1/4 the price of Hopes and have never had one issue so... it is only with the latest iteration that they're having problems. And the latest versions are their least expensive yet... looks like they cut a few too many corners this time around. Shimano won't stand for bad products or losing market share so I would expect this to get corrected soon.
> 
> ...


Na these are outta box, After a bleed/new lines etc.

They are stupid easy to bleed.

Go on ridedonkey there is thread with other users with the same deal. They say its only an issue with 4 pot brakes.

Its not a biggie they work awesome.


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## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

Hope.....


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## Mauri (Mar 17, 2010)

Gman086 said:


> I've owned them all and my XTR's cost 1/4 the price of Hopes


Hopes aren't that crazy expensive, atleast here in Europe. Set of XTR Trails cost around 310 euros and you can get a set of Hope V4s for 420 and E4s for 390. So yes, bit more expensive but not that much. Saints are a bit cheaper, coming around 260 euros per set. I'm guessing Saints are going to get upgraded soon.


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## woodyak (Jan 20, 2004)

My buds are ALL running XT/XTR brakes now due to cost and relative reliability. After hearing raving after raving the complaints have started to come out. One of my buds says his XT's are becoming crap. They worked great for a year and now he has a lot of issues. His XTR's have been solid. Another bud has replaced his XT's 3 times. He tried fixing his first pair and said it cost more bringing it into the shop multiple times than replacing them. My wife's XT's have been pretty solid only needing 1 bleed in 2 seasons. None of us are running Saints.

Personally, I'm a Hope guy. Yeah, they were pricey but I have them on 3 bikes and I've had them for over 4 seasons with just bleeds and pad replacements being necessary. My oldest pair is 8 seasons and is still going strong. Even when they need a bleed they don't run that poorly and you can run them safely. If they start to go on me I'll consider the Shimano's but at this point I see no reason to change.


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

Mauri said:


> Hopes aren't that crazy expensive, atleast here in Europe. Set of XTR Trails cost around 310 euros and you can get a set of Hope V4s for 420 and E4s for 390. So yes, bit more expensive but not that much. Saints are a bit cheaper, coming around 260 euros per set. I'm guessing Saints are going to get upgraded soon.


Well I think that's the thing... I'm in the US and there's always a sale on Shimano brakes. I should have quantified that I got my XTR's on close-out when the model became obsolete with the intro of the 9020's so they were literally 1/4 of the price of new Hopes (which are pretty expensive here and parts availability is also an issue in the States).

Have FUN!

G MAN


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

#1ORBUST said:


> Na these are outta box, After a bleed/new lines etc.
> 
> They are stupid easy to bleed.
> 
> ...


Well I have noticed even their new brakes need a bleed (same specific problem - levers go to bars after bike has been upside down) and I have to bleed my XT's and XTR's twice a year (the upside down thing is always the indicator that it is time). The thing that puzzles me is just why this is when I have NEVER seen so much as a drop leaking from the brakes. My only theory is that the mineral oil is evaporating thru the lever reservoir vent holes. Mineral oil has such a low vapor pressure that I really can't understand how this is happening unless they're using an aromatic version which is quite possible since they're adamant about not using substitutions. Bottom line though is that I NEVER had to bleed my Formulas after the initial bleed because the DOT fluid just stays. Still, I'll take the trade off as clean up is WAY easier with mineral oil and not having to worry about the paint coming off my bars/brakes/bike after bleeds like with DOT fluid (not to mention Shimano's gravity bleeds are 100% easier than the syringe bleeds on all others).

Have FUN!

G MAN


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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

Hope's are gravity bled also. A hose and catch bottle, dot 5.1 and an 8mm wrench are all you need for an easy bleed! Ttyl, Fahn


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## kitejumping (Sep 3, 2010)

I have 810s and 820s on different bikes, the 810s are better in every way except for the lack of heat fins and weight. The 820s you kind of have to pump the lever every so often if you haven't used them in a while or before every ride.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

I have 810 calipers with 820 levers. Same here... have to pump them. I might bleed them this afternoon since I haven't done them in a while. 

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## kitejumping (Sep 3, 2010)

Christopher Robin said:


> I have 810 calipers with 820 levers. Same here... have to pump them. I might bleed them this afternoon since I haven't done them in a while.
> 
> Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


Maybe 810 levers with 820 calipers is the solution then, seems lots of people are having problems with the 820 levers. The 810 levers are easier to bleed too.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

I wonder how XT levers would work with 810 calipers. My XT brakes on my trail bike work well. 

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## rep_1969 (Mar 25, 2004)

Thanks for the heads up!! That's why I always say "Don't fix it if it ain't broke"!!


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

I can't believe people realize there is a problem with their brakes, then continue to ride them and make excuses. There is a shortage of brain power on these forums.


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## fgiraffe (Aug 30, 2004)

I agree that you should not have problems with brakes, especially at the high end. But I am happy that I have not had any problems with the SLX brakes on my trail bike or the Zees on my DH bikes.


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## ftbjoe (Oct 21, 2004)

So I have noticed issues with having to "pump up" the levers on both Zees and Saints. I believe what is happening is that as the pads wear the pistons push out (if youve bled them with the bleeding block you will see that this is true). As the pistons push out it takes more fluid and the air in the system is up in the lever. Sometimes that air can move down the lines and thats why you have to pumped them up. If you have new pads and a new bleed you will notice that this is not an issue. As your pads wear down you will have to add more fluid to the system in order to no have the pumping issue (also not use the bleed block for the bleed).

I dont have any specs in front of me but I would guess that the saints use larger pistons than competitors which is why they have more power but also suffer more from this issue pads wear and the pistons push out.

If you look at the pit bits from the DH race this week you will see a mechanic bleeding a set with a rotor rather than the yellow bleed block which my guess would be a remedy to this issue.

So in short the solution would be to swap pads out more often or bleed your breaks as they wear down with a rotor and pads in place of the bleed block.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Don't even have to bleed there, there was a 5 minute fix video someone link in another thread. As long as you have the shimano bleed funnel, it's literally a 5 minute maintenance matter.

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## YoKev (Apr 26, 2012)

Maybe I'm lucky(which is odd, as I usually don't have any good luck), but I'm now on my 4th set of Saints since they came out, and I've never had any problems.
Being 245lbs, and having one trail where you have to come to a complete stop from 25-30mph in 15 yards or so, or else you're off a cliff and into a ravine, I've g<one through quite a few sets of Ice Tech rotors, but I've switched to Saint hubs on my latest DH bike, thus I've been able to run the Super-Secret, Double-Probation Ice Techs(forgot what they're called, but they only come in center-lock), and these things have resisted over-heating UBERLY< MY WORD. Don't try to claim it as your own!


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

I own a set of Hope V4's and a set of new Hope E4's. I've run Shimano almost exclusively for years before that.

Once they 810's came out, they went backwards with the lever ergos and action. Then the 820's seem to have nothing but problems.

My V4's have 3 seasons on them and have been flawless. Mammoth, Northstar, Baldy, Whistler, etc etc etc.

The E4's seem to deliver the same way so far. And everyone who rides my bike falls in love with them too..


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