# #6



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

*#6 *edit* And #7!*

It's cold outside....... still, so more design work / parts acquisition has been occurring than metal work. So, though #5 has barely been started, I thought I'd start a build thread for #6. The 650BadAss/Twenty7Fiver/650Bastard/some other semi-clever name I haven't thought up yet.

I liked how #2 raced, but on faster/rougher stuff the rigid fork and hyperactive handling got to be a bit much, not uncontrollable, but fatiguing. The tall fork meant that the bars I was wrestling in rough terrain were pretty high. With the low BB it felt more like I was behind the bars rather than above them, weighting (or un-weighting) the front was a challenge. That said #2 absolutely ripped in the tight yet smooth singletrack that it spent most of it's time in. Especially for a 29er, thanks to the low BB, short wheelbase, and short trail.

So, for next season's XC bike the goals were to not ruin the handling in the twisty stuff, but to not get beat up after long hours or in the rougher faster terrain.

So less punishing but still something of a twitchy bastard :devil:. To be achieved via:

Shorter headtube
Suspension fork, 15mm T/A, "short" travel 80-100mm
650B wheels, wide rims high volume tires.

Work in progress BikeCad file and parts acquired up to this point:










Some wicked awesome eBay'n landed a $400 2013 120mm travel 26in Sid World Cup. I was winning a set of 120mm travel 29in Sid lowers for 20.00 but the seller pulled the auction at 12hrs...So I had to spend real money on 29er lowers, the 27.5/650 lowers would be ideal but they are not available at the moment. So now I have a bastardized 27.5ish SID WC.

With 20/20 hindsight, the 27.5/650 SID RCT3 would have worked fine out of the box....but what fun is that? Instead I have a 80mm travel carbon steerer/crown 650-ish fork that "should" work according to this chart from RS concerning the solo air forks:










The SID lowers are identical from the drops up to about 95mm, varying from there to the arch depending on wheel size. Some R&D is to come, but this combo should make for nice short travel fork with lot's of bushing overlap. Even if some changes(different length solo air unit) are required I'm only in 550-ish on a nearly $1200msrp fork...that doesn't exist.

I'm going to order more stuff from Joe B simply for the conversation, I bought the now famous Dedacciai ZeroUno 29er tubes for this frame, but the bendy chain/seat stays will probably go to frame #5 and the Zona/Nova stays I had for that frame will be used on this frame. Even with 2.35's on 28mm rims the clearance issues are much easier to deal with than on 29in wheels.










Shelby the (now 50lb)Boxer Dog approves of the Gucci 650B-astardized fork. There's also a jowel-ey nod of approval for the XTR hubs. I felt the need to repent after using cartridge bearing hubs on the last build. Building up XTR hubs, 2.0-1.8 spokes, brass nipples, and welded seam/eyeleted/very true rims + 6pack = more stress relief than money can buy in most states.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hmmm...

_Tweaking _on two builds at once. The sign of true madness. Well done.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Cool hacks!

Why not 29" wheels here? You could build the exact same geometry without any problems. 

-Walt


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## ohpossum (Dec 19, 2003)

I haven't seen a 650b SID in real life, but I would imagine the stanchions are slightly longer, or the bottom out bumpers are slightly taller, than a 26er SID. Before you get too involved in your frankenfork you might find someone with a front wheel to borrow to make sure you don't have crown->tire contact at full compression. If you do I imagine some taller bottom out bumpers could be rigged up fairly easily.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Walt, 
A big reason for the 650's was to keep the front end low while using a Sus fork, without resorting to a super short headtube (or 26in wheels ). I want to keep the chainstays as straight and un-dimpled as practical in the name of stiffness/durability. I can then flaunt that improved stiffness via my marketing campaign.

The other big reason is that I was able to build a pretty burly wheelset that is within a few grams of the weight weenie 29'er wheels I used last season. 
I won't miss worrying the ZTR Crest/Racing Ralphs were going to implode at any moment.

And also, just because.

Possum,
The carbon steerer crown has lots of clearance. I think the uppers are the same length for similar forks, the different lowers and the various lengths for the Solo Air spring are what is varies between the different wheel sizes. It just so happens the spring for the 120mm travel 26in fork is within a few mm of the length for the 80mm travel 27.5/29 spring. There's going to be some further R&D done before I ride it in any anger, the bottom out bumper will get extended at very least for some insurance as far as keeping daylight between the seals and crown. Don't worry, I've got my best engineer on it...


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

#6 is in R&D mode,










I don't really have enough miles, and absolutely none on dirt since winter won't F'n end. A trip around the block and a few commutes to work show it's nice and stiff, and tracks straight.

Tubing ended up being a Deddiaccccichi Zero Uno DT, TruTempur TT/ST/HT, Nova CS, Colombus SS. There, I can say "Totally custom tubing blend just for you!" when I launch my marketing campaign. (sarcasm just in case it didn't translate).

I tried out the TT 44mm HT this time and am pretty happy with it. It's not as burly, or as pretty, as the Paragon 44HT. But it's far from flimsy, and I'll get over the aesthetics of the top HS cup not sitting flush. I also used the IceToolz facer/reamer instead of the Park 44 reamer/bb facing tool(abuse). I don't have much faith in it's longevity/durability, but it did a very nice job for being a 100.00 cutter. For shifter cable bosses I used the Llewellyn "Limpet"
It makes for a nice looking and solid mount.










I'm of the opinion that race bikes should not be super Gucci/top 'o' the line everything. But once I'd picked up the SID WC....and the XTR hubs...well I was halfway down the slippery slope anyway so might as well check out one of these guys!










Went with one of Clockwork's DM front derailleur mounts. Elegantly simple and very solid.










I've started modifying Paragon's little work of art cable mounts. The thinner hydro housing or derailleur housing floats in them a bit and the zip tie doesn't really have a chance to get any purchase. So giving them a little squeeze and then touching up the miter makes for a much tighter fit that also lets the zip tie get some solid contact with the housing.










Boxer Dog approved!


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

That looks wicked Greg! Have you thought about doing a clear powder job? I always hate covering up sweet fillets! Are you going to add a cable guide to the non-drive CS for the brake hose?


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Dave, I think this one needs to be "Hooligan Red." If I want to leave a frame bare it will be wd-40 or linseed painted and touched up as required. The brake hose cable mount will get added when I buy some gas this weekend. I'm nearly out of o2, and I've found the fastest way to F up some silver brazing is to have your o2 die and coke up your flux/silver/brazeon.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

#6 update,

650B.A. is still in "R&D" mode (unpainted). It has been a bizarre Spring/early Summer round these parts. Which to this point has meant canceled races or mud fests. So the new XC bike hasn't seen too many miles, but the 300ish it has been dragged through have been brutal.

I've tested out my mud clearance thoroughly with different types of slop. 
And concluded there must be a tipping point where all the clearance in the world wouldn't make a bit of difference. The seat stays are pretty tight on this one, but I suffered no more than anyone else on the same courses. This is compared to MTB's with full shifty bit drivetrains, for real mudder, a SS CX bike could make a case for big frame/fork mud clearance.

For an MTB, I think planning for clearance to ride out a few broken spokes worth of wheel wonkyness is more critical than mud clearance.

So, the notches in 650B.A.'s belt:

The "St.Croix Woolly," a pretty poor showing at an MNMTBS xc race, but the bike loved the trails. The course was a series of constant tight turns and punchy climbs, exactly what this bike was made to destroy. Unfortunately I had spent the previous day on #5 in the Almonzo100. Add in the post Monzo drinking/eating/SubaruCamping and I was in less than prime shape for an xc race. So not much in the way of actual racing occurred on that day, I was beat to make the finish without getting lapped.

Started a 10hr race on a 4 man team. Crazy mud...I thought my home built frame was holding me back, but nobody else's bike was any better by the end of a lap.









The Lutsen 99er was last weekend, it starts by whistling downhill on a road with 800ish others at 40mph....the road down out of the resort hits a 90 Left at highway 61 along Lake Superior. I've never smelled brakes in a bicycle environment until that corner with that gaggle of hundreds slowing from 40ish to Zeroish. I think I've missed the mark on my frames fooling around with geometry and handling....but have shacked my personal fit dimensions. I'm pretty happy that I can spend 8hrs on a bike and hove no joint/hand/back pain at all.

So I'm happy with rider fit, and have 2 650's built with a pretty big range of geometry between them. Time to put it all together and rope a buddy into testing a frame for me to get some outside feedback.

So, #7 is a 650b XC frame for free in exchange for being a test rider....








More pics and the full build to follow.

Also #8 is in progress, #5 was so fun set up SS with the big tires that a dedicated 29+ SS frame is in the works. And #5 will give up the Knards for it's planned 29in wheels and fenders.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Full details on #7 aka "The Vino!"

As alluded to in the previous post, a good friend was in desperate need of a new XC bike. Jokingly we were talking one day about me building a frame....yaddayaddayadda....we find that we've stopped talking hypothetically. I can only build so many bikes for myself, and an outside point of view would be nice. So a 100% new bike to replace the clapped out 2003 Trek 8000 the guy was still riding was long overdue. This friend is the same guy responsible for goading me into stupid things like the Arrowhead 135 and the Maah Daah Hey 100, so tough guy enduro races are his thing. Our goal was a better fit than the 8K with the versatility to be a tight singletrack machine that could be comfortable for 12+hrs. Usually the bike will be rigid, the Fox FX80 from the 8K will take over for longer more punishing rides. The rider has a really long torso and arms and shorter legs, a good candidate for a custom frame. And at 5'7" a 29er would not be ideal, 650b it is!









It's strange to let one leave the nest







Headtube badge/serial#. Seven worked out well, other numbers might be a pain.
















Was more agressive with cutting down the Paragon Lowriders than on #6, turned out really nice. Have also have been using the "direct mount" hanger for the RD. 





























Another Clockwork DM for the FD, amazed at the even coverage the PC guy achieved in there.








BTW, He looks like this guy, hence the nickname:


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## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

Superb job! congrats on the sale, now all those tools are justified
cheers
andy walker


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

Beautiful Greg! Did you take it up to GF to have it coated? That dropout section looks super clean.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Dave, yeah it's Pro-Tec Powdercoat. The base layer is "chrome-like" with a candy blue top coat. It looks really nice in the sun, I'm amazed at the smooth even coverage he got even in areas like the inside of the Clockwork DM-FD. Though laid on pretty thick it didn't mask any imperfections in my metal work, if anything it highlights everything.


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## jcaino (May 26, 2007)

Nice work!


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Greg,

Nice work, and its good to succeed past that realm of self and build for someone-else, and get it right.

What are your impressions of the direct mount rear deraileur? I found it great to have the extra space to replace the rear wheel/chain engagement. Looks better as well.

Eric


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## MDEnvEngr (Mar 11, 2004)

Very nice! I like the cut down low mount dropouts. I think they work best like that...and yours look great. B


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

The bolt/pivot of the RD to the hanger is further outboard, so the hanger is thicker overall than a std replaceable one. Don't know if that's explicitly by design, it's longer so can be a bit more burly and still have enough give to bust before the frame or RD as advertised. The big benefit is really with removing/installing the rear wheel. I gave him the RD nubbin bolted to a std hanger to throw into the saddlebag so he has a std hanger if needed for a new RD and the nubbin/hanger to replace just the hanger with the current RD.

Expanded #7 photo dump since it seems to be quiet round these parts...

Stripped the Ano off of the M629 hubs and a XT front hub for myself. The Shimano 529/629 hubs are HUGE value, I can't logically justify using XT or XTR (or anything else) over these OEM spec hubs. They are sooooo cheap, using a really heavy axle and minimal sealing. But if you are like me and have derelict Shimano hubs lying around you swap the heavy ass OEM axle for something else nicer and are willing to rebuild them a bit more often they are untouchable. The only reason I picked up an XT for myself was because the QR skewers are a fair bit nicer and I wanted to stock up.









Ready for their date with the polishing wheel. 









HT/TT/DT ready to be loaded into the jig.









DT/HT miter









DT/BB/ST miter









Front triangle loaded up









HT/TT/DT miters









Rear Drop Miters


















How much the Paragon Low Riders were cut down compared to the full length drops on #4










Chainstay/RDs









The beautiful Paragon zip tie cable guides, they get spendy in stainless....but damn are they nice.









HT Badge was sharpie'd and drilled out as much as possible









Carefully filed out the rest, #7 was easy....other numbers might be tough.









I'm thrashing to clean up #6 to be PC'd prior to the MDH100 in August so both can be there in full dress.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Yur killin it, Bro. :thumbsup:


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

#6 is officially faster i.e., painted red. Went out with #6 and 7 to Paul Bunyan State Forrest in Minnesoooota for some of the best singletrack nobody knows of in the area.

*edit* for some reason MTBR's photo server didn't like these pics, so Flickr'd links:


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

Looking good Greg! Really feeling that 44mm headtube and the red looks awesome. Was it a two-stage powder job?


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

#6/7 update.

The owner of #7 is thus far pretty happy with the frame. That said, I can think of some comically unsavory and offensive things I could bolt the current M785 XT parts group to and create a damn good MTB. The owner/test dummy/friend was upgrading from mostly second hand and beat M950XTR components, rounded out by Trek's best branded stuff from 2003-ish. 

If every F'Builder, Hacks and Pro's alike, were able to upgrade a rider so completely with only parts.......Well this $h!t would be easy.

The owner of #7 is possibly the nicest guy I've ever had the pleasure of calling a friend. I actually made him promise to try and be as big of a cock as he can conjure and give me as much honest feedback as possible. 

The feedback thus far is that he loves it. Allow me to explain why I somewhat believe my friend, the nicest guy on the planet.

As long as I have know him, he has always been a tenacious amateur athlete. But in relation to riding a mountain bike fast, he's always made up for a relative lack of skill and tactics with effort....and he's always had a $hitTon of effort to give(also slotting into the Vino' callsign). And now he's combined that blind effort with a properly fitting and functioning bike, he's not just the underdog trying his best in spite of his equipment. He's now punching well above his weight.

I feel the need to emphasize I don't feel the frame is responsible for this, the guy is a BadAss in his own right.....But has enabled him to up his Bad Ass-eyness without being held back by something as simple as a bicycle.

#6 is my companion for the MN RustyRide this week, and both #6/7 are hitting the MDH100 the following weekend.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

A guy like that is half of the perfect test rider. Tons of tenacity and "low" skill. A rider like that will pound equipment by default. I'm not sure that type of rider ever comes with the second half of the equation; the ability to discern differences in the performance of equipment. Still, the price is right!


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

I bailed out on #6 at Mi 75 fearing heat stroke. My Buddy riding #7 toughed out the heat and was one of 20 finishers of the Maah Daah Hey 100......more than 100 started the solo 100 mi race. Low temps were in the 40s last week for us Nort'Dakotans, so 100 degrees...no clouds...no shade...proper climbs killed off all but the most bad ass or able to embrace heat stroke among us. My Garmin data up to where I quit, with easily another few thousand ft of climbing in the last 30-ish mi of the trail.

I drank 2+ gallons of water/Heed/salt pills, and was dizzy and seeing things once the sun was out in full force. I always beat myself up for quitting things, but I'm ok with this one. I finished this race on a ridged forked' frame #2 last year, and it nearly killed me with a high temp of 80f. I felt waaaaaaaay worse this year at the 3rd checkpoint than I did last year, and as I just mentioned...that nearly killed me. So I threw the safety flag and called it quits not wanting things to end in a self induced helicopter ride.

#6 and #7 performed admirably, the owner of #7 was really happy with how the bike was for 16+hrs of rough singletrack. Of course he finished this race last year on an OG Purple Surly Puglsey, so his opinion on a sweet endurance race bike is maybe a bit off. I must say I was, and still am, worried the frame would be this guy's limiting factor. I must also say I'm proud, would have been over the moon if I had also finished on #6, that he finished with no complaints of back/hand/knee pain after that amount of time on a punishing trail.

Boxer Cycles #6/7 group photo in Medora








Dave, owner of #7, looking impossibly fresh reporting to the finish in Medora, ND.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

G-reg said:


> I always beat myself up for quitting things, but I'm ok with this one. I finished this race on a ridged forked' frame #2 last year, and it nearly killed me with a high temp of 80f. I felt waaaaaaaay worse this year at the 3rd checkpoint than I did last year, and as I just mentioned...that nearly killed me. So I threw the safety flag and called it quits not wanting things to end in a self induced helicopter ride.


Good stuff, G-reg!

It's never easy to quit, racing on your own frame makes quitting even harder but you made the right call. Coming back to race again at some future event is way better then digging to the point of health issues, injury, etc.

Riding is sometimes a mix of good and bad days. Last year, I focused most of the year on one big all eggs in the same basket event. Quitting was hard. Sometimes finishing is not an option when you have a bad day. The near the end of the year I did a personal best had an unexpected strong finish at Fools Gold 100 mile race. Riding a bike is always going to have luck and the mix of good and bad days.

It's awesome that you can do such big events on a bike you built yourself! Keep racing; statistics works and you will have a good day at some point.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Fe, being a racing framebuilder has added an extremely critical eye to everything I do/have done. I've been cautious with the frames I've built, #1-3 are retired already. I pushed things with #6 and it will be done at the end of the season too. But to float #7 out as a long term ride has been stressful, especially given the events entered and riding style of owner. #9 is officially on the books, and will be another friend who will be a brutal test rider.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

G-reg said:


> *edit* for some reason MTBR's photo server didn't like these pics, so Flickr'd links:


What photo server? Looks like MTBR no longer permits photo attachments....

What grips are you running?


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Zachariah said:


> What photo server? Looks like MTBR no longer permits photo attachments....
> 
> What grips are you running?


Yeah, anything uploaded as an attachment seems to have disappeared. And to answer you other question, on anything flat bar I've been using Ergon GS or GP 1s for years.

Well, I pushed things with geometry and light tubing on #6. I did this intending that it would be a single season race frame, and is why I left it bare initially I Endo'd a few times fighting deep DH ruts in the MDH 100. At least one of those was enough to crack the seat rails on my saddle.......and to start the downward spiral of the seat tube.

I forget what tubing I used specifically, but it was thinner than the other butted seat tubes I've used, and internally butted. I picked the tube up for a stillborn project involving lugs. Since this was an experimental frame I accepted that the tubing was too thin. and the internally butted ST portion too short. So the long/offset seatpost had lots of leverage and not much support or excess burly-ness. And the inevitable result was a crack. Though not where I initially expected it to be. It started at the hole for the clamp slot, and cracked back along what I assume is the HAZ. The Powdercoat highlights distortion on the front of the ST below the TT and on the back above where the chainstays hit.


So, damn. Honestly not unexpected but wish I had kept the"experimental" frame bare and not wasted $$$ getting it powdercoated. Worst part is that I only really saved *maybe* .5lb being a weight weenie. #7 is relatively over built, but not that much heavier. I had enough miles on this one to come to these conclusions prior to the seat tube failing, and #8 already has some resultant changes. The big changes from here on out are sleeved seat tubes, longer butt-length at the post end of the ST, and ensuring the stop drill for the clamp slot is well out of the TT HAZ.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

# 6 - 7 got some Paragon Love

And a few pics stolen from Skinnyski.com during the Laddie's Loppet Stage weekend. TT, Dirt Crit, and XC in the exact type of trail these 650s were built to tear up.


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## SEK82089 (Sep 20, 2007)

Cool stuff. I was at the 10 hour Race to Sunset this past summer as well. I was on the blue Waltworks with a Lefty. The trail dried out a bit and then came that massive down pour. No control at all. Fun still but scary. 

I attempted the MDH 100 last year with my Waltworks set up as a single speed rigid. Made it 56 miles or so just after the larger river crossing. Conditions were very similar. It was cool 50s or 60s when we rolled out before the sun came out and by mid-day it was in the 90s. North Dakota is a strange state that is for sure.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

SEK82089 said:


> Cool stuff. I was at the 10 hour Race to Sunset this past summer as well. I was on the blue Waltworks with a Lefty. The trail dried out a bit and then came that massive down pour. No control at all. Fun still but scary.
> 
> I attempted the MDH 100 last year with my Waltworks set up as a single speed rigid. Made it 56 miles or so just after the larger river crossing. Conditions were very similar. It was cool 50s or 60s when we rolled out before the sun came out and by mid-day it was in the 90s. North Dakota is a strange state that is for sure.


I missed this somehow, but I remember seeing the Waltworks there!


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