# Rear Racks Vs Frame/Seat Bags



## Bicyclelist (Sep 5, 2006)

Hey guys, I've noticed a lot of people have frame/seat bags instead of rear racks. I have a Fargo with a rear rack, but seeing everyone with the bags, are the bags a better option for carrying things?

Thanks!


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

They are a lighter option I know. From what I've read they are the preferred method fir FS bikes b/c many haveproblems with seatpost racks rotating.

I own neither. Have an aluminum Portland Design Works rack on my commuter and my only bikepacking option for my mtb right now is a backpack. Not ideal since it raises COG so much but it works


----------



## JerryW (Nov 18, 2008)

Everyone has their own idea of what's "better", but here's my thoughts:

As mentioned, a set of framebags(framebag, seatbag, handlebar sling) will weigh much less than either racks/panniers or a trailer.

Going offroad, there is always the potential for a rack to break or hardware to loosen. Going rack-less eliminates this hazard as the attachment points are all soft and have some flex and forgiveness to the bumps and vibration.

Framebags keep the load more centered on the bike and heavier items can be placed closer to the bottom bracket which has less affect on handling. The bike also has a narrower profile making travel on tight trails easier.

Frame bags typically have less capacity than panniers or a trailer. This will effectively keep you from overpacking and force you to carry less weight/bulk, making your ride comparatively easier. This takes some dedication to gear research and upgrades, but pays big dividends on a long ride.


Having used racks/panniers and a BOB trailer in the past, and now framebags, I have to say that framebags are the only way I will tour, on or off road.


Jerry


----------



## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

I wrote about this awhile ago in my blog. Kind of long-winded, but I was trying to decide what system to use for the CTR:

Toby Gadd: Panniers for 2011?


----------



## Bicyclelist (Sep 5, 2006)

Awesome, thanks for the info guys! I have noticed that even with loc-tite that the rack bolts come loose during extended off road use. I'm thinking the bags might be the way to go so I don't have to keep checking the bolts, thanks for that tip!

Also, if I get a frame bag and loose 2 water bottle spots, what is an alternative hydration system that's not carried on my back?

Toby, thanks for the post on this, definitely informative and makes you think. I have the same panniers (Pacific Outdoor) and love them but I'm still thinking of trying the frame bags, dunno, su9ch a tough decision!


----------



## SimpleJon (Mar 28, 2011)

I think it's completely dependent on application and of course personal preference 
If I am doing a weekend trip on my full sus Epic, I use a home made frame bag. I tried out a Topeak MTX DXP beam rack and rear pannier which is suspended off the seat post, which I use on my beaten up old hybrid for commuting but it messed up the handling big time, also I am dubious about the long term durability of such a setup. I may try the freeload on the FS at some point, heard good things and it seems a more stable way of mounting to the rear triangle than any other I've seen. Your Platform For Adventure
I do quite a lot of longer expedition type stuff on a rigid touring bike and I have to say that for the amount of gear you need to carry, especially in the third world (you need to carry an LBS and hospital), good quality panniers and racks are my preferred option. You just can't get enough stuff in a framebag setup and I couldn't get used to trailers especially off road, I tried the bob. Another issue I have seen with most who use trailers it allows you to carry too much stuff I generally carry 20kg with panniers which allows me to carry up to an additional 10kg of water or some luxurious food stuffs for the evening (Water requirements is one thing I've seen guys with framebags woefully under estimate on a number of occasions, they were glad of the dork with his panniers...)
Not all panniers and racks are created equal, I have had mates with cheap setups that have had nightmares with failures or they make the bike unstable. The best rack and pannier (but certainly not the cheapest) I have used are from Bruce Gordon Touring Front & Rear Racks for Panniers | Bruce Gordon Cycles. I borrowed a mates 700c Rock N Road recently set up with front and rear racks and panniers - he's done thousands of miles on this never had an issue. Even fully loaded for a weekend test ride the off road handling was great, super stable. But of course I couldn't take on the single track like the epic.
I am planning an 8 week circumnavigation of Borneo for the end of the year and loved the Rock n Road so much, I am going to order one the minute my next paycheck comes in (the kids can eat instant noodles for a month)


----------



## Mike Brown (Mar 12, 2004)

I've used a rear rack/panniers/ handlebar bag extensively offroad, completing the CT at a non-race pace and several weekend trips in Pisgah. They've worked great for me- but:

I'd love to try some frame bags and giant seat twinkies. My current set-up works great and ain't broke, so I'm not going to spend the money to replace it. I bought it before the current crop of frame bags and twinkies were available. If I was buying new, I'd definitely go the frame bag, seat twinkie, bar strap system route.


----------



## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

For casual bikepacking, I think that I'd ride a hard tail with racks and panniers. With decent panniers, the weight difference isn't really that significant, and panniers are extremely convenient. They can carry bulky stuff more easily and they are easier to pack and organize. I really liked them for my first CTR--when I didn't have as much ultra-light gear, and I wasn't as concerned with saving every gram. Panniers are also great for camping in the rain--just toss stuff you're not using into them, and everything stays dry and accessible.

For racing, the "twinkie" setup (thanks Mike!) is tighter and works far better with my full-suspension bike. But I do find myself measuring every cubic millimeter--there just isn't much room for anything extra, at least if I want to ride without a heavy/bulky pack. To make everything fit, I've had to buy new gear that is pretty much like my old stuff, just more compact. For example, my new bivy bag is pretty much like my old one, it just packs 20% smaller. But racing demands sacrifices, so I now sling a twinkie!

I'm not selling my rack and panniers, though. I've got a ride or two in mind that I'd like to do with my family. My kid isn't going to be able to tote all of his own stuff, and my twinkie isn't big enough for everyone!


----------



## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

CoppellStereo said:


> I have noticed that even with loc-tite that the rack bolts come loose during extended off road use. I'm thinking the bags might be the way to go so I don't have to keep checking the bolts, thanks for that tip!


In addition to Loctite, I added an extra lock washer AND a lock nut to the existing Nylon-cored nuts that came with the rack. I've never had anything come lose--and I've almost had to resort to a hacksaw to get the damn thing off! Possibly just the lock nuts would be sufficient, but I don't like the idea of having a rack cut loose, drop into my spokes, etc.


----------



## SuPrBuGmAn (Jun 20, 2009)

Racks are way cheaper typically, and money is a factor for some.


Not having a seatbag shouldn't be a reason for not riding.


----------



## Bicyclelist (Sep 5, 2006)

Thanks for all the info and the good laugh at the 'twinkie'! I'll have to try a lock washer on my rear rack bolts. At some point I'm thinking of maybe going to a Fox Terralogic fork, hopefully that will help smooth out the ride some.

I'm thinking the frame bag might be a good option when I use the bike to commute to work. There is an amazing trail network right on my way to work (M-Hill [Hanson Larson Memorial Park] in Rapid City, SD) that I can hit on my way to work and on my way back home. Should make my bike more balanced (usually take one pannier to work) and narrower for the tight spots.

Maybe I should just get both bags and racks for different purposes, I see there is a Salsa Fargo bag made specifically to fit the diamond on my frame.


----------



## webbaldo (Mar 16, 2011)

I have a FS rear seat post rack and i try and avoid using it now for the slipping round issue


----------



## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

CoppellStereo said:


> Awesome, thanks for the info guys! I have noticed that even with loc-tite that the rack bolts come loose during extended off road use. I'm thinking the bags might be the way to go so I don't have to keep checking the bolts, thanks for that tip!


A solution that usually holds up for a long time is to use longer bolts and put a nylock nut over it. If your run the bolt from the inside of the dropout towards the outside it leaves a post to mount your rack to, you then secure it with a nylock nut. If the bolt breaks, removal is easy.

Alternately for more security, run the bolt from outside through the rack then through the dropouts, and cap it off with a nylock nut. If the bolt breaks you still have something to grab so you can back it out.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

When I rode the CDN GDR on my Pugsley with panniers and racks my limiting factor for having a blast on the downhills and trails was keeping my bags/racks intact. Bombing downhill with lots of options for jumping and popping over stuff I had to take the sensible smoother line instead of riding my Pugs like a MTB.

I decided at that point not to bikepack with panniers and racks again. 

Dedicated bikepacking bags are lighter and more robust for rough surface riding at high speed. They are also smaller which limits you to a sensible amount of gear and you can carry the weight centered in the frame. Pushing the bike is easier when it is narrower. You can stash water bottles in the frame bag or attach them to your fork/seat stays.

Having said all that I wouldn't suggest anyone stay home because they don't have the optimal bag setup. You'll have to ride with consideration for your gear, but you can still ride and have a great time. Sort of like you don't need a FS MTB to enjoy trail riding, but you'll ride the trail differently on a rigid MTB. They are both fun..just different.


----------



## satanas (Feb 12, 2005)

Like SimpleJon says it really depends on what you're doing. If you have to carry food for several days, panniers mean this doesn't need to be on your back (painful) or in a trailer (complicated). I've never had any problems with tubular steel racks - including no loosening mounting bolts - but have broken a number of alu front racks.

For trips to places like India, the ability to carry enough stuff is more important than minimising weght or clearance for singletrack riding; I'm not sure there is much/any rideable singletrack there, and roads are rough and challenging enough in the Himalaya anyway.

I can also see how the Extrawheel trailers might be a good thing for dual sus bikes if more crap really needs to be carried, and reports online have been positive.

Still, if you don't have to carry multiple days worth of food, then frame bags should make pushing and carrying the bike easier, will force efficient gear choice, and give more clearance in tight spots as others have said.


----------



## thesergeant (Jun 1, 2006)

twinkie bag with a slice of pie is my preference, although I do have a Bob Trailer that sees some use as well.


----------



## satanas (Feb 12, 2005)

^ But how do you prevent critters eating your bags?


----------



## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

satanas said:


> ^ But how do you prevent critters eating your bags?


How does he keep other riders from eating his bags?


----------



## wavejim (Jul 15, 2011)

^^ That would be perfect if you had bacon wraped in the spokes.


----------



## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

SuPrBuGmAn said:


> Racks are way cheaper typically, and money is a factor for some.


Yeah, that is why I'll end up with a rack. The twinkies and pie look great, but are out of my price range.

Although, I just had a brainstorm to convert the nylon carry bag for a camp chair into a frame bag... Hmmm...


----------



## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

wavejim said:


> ^^ That would be perfect if you had bacon wraped in the spokes.


Look out for bears.


----------



## Sandrenseren (Dec 29, 2011)

*No love for panniers?*

I am considering getting a rack and a bag for my mtb. Normally I only bring a spare tube and some tire irons which fits into a small bag under my saddle, but I'm considering doing some family outings this year and probably need some more space for a bit of lunch, some water for the kids, picnic stuff.

I know a popular choice is a back pack, but I get plenty hot already without strapping a bag to my back, so I much prefer a sort of luggage rack and a bag instead. So I'm thinking a rack designed to fit a medium sized bag on top and some panniers to strap on if the need for hauling bigger loads apply. I'm no weight weenie and doesn't mind riding with a permanent rack even when I don't need it - giving me the option to bring a top bag only, panniers only or both top bag and panniers.

Then I looked through this section of mtbr.com and discovered that not many of you seems to like racks an panniers, but instead strap all sorts of loads to the seat post and in the middle of the frame.

Why so little love for racks and panniers, what am I missing?


----------



## sherpaxc (Aug 12, 2005)

A lot of the set ups you see here are for one person, and many times that one person is trying to cover a fair amount of trail but will usually have a resupply within the first 3 or 4 days. I would think that if you were going to be carrying extra stuff for a kid, you'd for sure want a pannier, but if it was just for you then I would strongly recommend getting a seatpack/frame bag set-up.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Panniers have their place for big loads.












Sandrenseren said:


> Why so little love for racks and panniers, what am I missing?


OTOH - they are heavy, wide and not suitable for riding rough technical terrain. That's where bikepacking bags work better.










Both are just tools and you choose the right one for the job at hand.


----------



## Sandrenseren (Dec 29, 2011)

Are you planning a step to all-wheel drive, Vik? :thumbsup:

Thanks for the answers, I can see it makes sense not to bring a wide setup for a single track. 

Don't those seatpacks get in the way when you try to hang behind the saddle on a downhill?

The frame bags makes me think about the pretty windy country I live in, not a big problem in the woods, but might pose a challenge out in the open. Then again, the cross section might not differ much from a panier setup?


----------



## LostBoyScout (Feb 7, 2008)

Sandrenseren said:


> Don't those seatpacks get in the way when you try to hang behind the saddle on a downhill?


The trick is to get back, keep your butt up but get your chest down. You can roll some pretty steep sections in that position. Depends how gnarly the terrain is I guess. A lot of BC's trails are too technical for much of anything on the bike - becomes a challenge, and you end up with most on your back.

Panniers are cool for gravel roads and such, not so good for trails. Pretty much the short version.


----------



## mikhalit (Aug 17, 2011)

Hi, 

I am thinking of doing some long on/off road family touring and want to unload the panniers as much as i can to prolong the life of racks and the frame. Smaller panniers will be a great side effect too. But how durable do you find the frame/hanldebar/seat bags? 

Do you think quality bags are able to withstand say a year of rough roads without major repairs? Anything special to be aware of in terms of durability while making a DIY set of bags?


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

mikhalit said:


> Do you think quality bags are able to withstand say a year of rough roads without major repairs? Anything special to be aware of in terms of durability while making a DIY set of bags?


Quality bags should last a year of constant use no problem. See Cass's blog below. He rides more than most.

while out riding

As for a DIY set of bags it really comes down to if you have the skills/time/interest to make a quality set of bags. I've seen lots of DIY bikepacking bags that are poorly made and I've seen a few really great ones. Myself I know I would make some crap bags and my time is worth more to me than the cost of a set of commercial bags hence the reason I've got some Porcelain Rocket bags. They'll last me a decade + given I don't bikepack 24/7.


----------



## mikhalit (Aug 17, 2011)

Thanks Vik. I was looking at the set that Cass has now (love his new Ogre set-up!), but if i remember well he got it from PR quite recently? Will keep on eye on it, hope he will come-up with a review.
Though I am sure Scott makes A+ bags, they are definitely a reference for me.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

mikhalit said:


> Thanks Vik. I was looking at the set that Cass has now (love his new Ogre set-up!), but if i remember well he got it from PR quite recently? Will keep on eye on it, hope he will come-up with a review.
> Though I am sure Scott makes A+ bags, they are definitely a reference for me.


He has had other PR bags quite a while. You can either mine his blog for info or leave a comment asking about them if you like. Cass is very helpful in advising other bikers...:thumbsup:

Porcelain Rocket « while out riding


----------



## mikhalit (Aug 17, 2011)

Thanks again, good to know that.

_juhu, more bikepacking porn! _

UPD. Well, Cass response is that bags are just fine for the long-term usage. Zippers need some love from time to time, but that's it.


----------



## bike for days (Nov 25, 2011)

Since this is rack vs bag: What do people think of the racks that clamp to seat post. Some seem to be able to run panniers or just strap stuff to the top similar to a seat bag. 

I am looking for a setup for lightweight touring that I can transfer easily between road bike and MTB. Would a decent seat bag work well on both, or does it make more sense for seat clamped rack?


----------



## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

the seatpost racks are certainly less expensive...


----------



## satanas (Feb 12, 2005)

The seatpost mounted racks tend to either break - often after little use - damage the seatpost or, at best, spin around on the post. They also carry the weight fairly high up. The Topeak racks appear to be a lot stronger than most others but the other problems will still apply, plus they aren't all that cheap; there are one or two others that might do the job, i.e., IIRC Aekel do one too, but these are not at all cheap. The soft bags from Revelate et al ought to be a lot harder to damage, but the cheapest option for luggage carrying is probably still panniers plus racks.

FWIW, Cass Gilbert (cited a few posts above) has used panniers, trailers and soft bags extensively - trailers commercially - so I'd pay particular attention to what he has to say. His blog is excellent too, plus he's a nice guy. :thumbsup:


----------



## emat (Oct 27, 2011)

Has anyone seen a Freeload Racks in use yet? The System Looks like a great system for suspension bikes. Rated to 25kg, but relatively expensive.


----------



## satanas (Feb 12, 2005)

^ And heavy. I've only seen them in the shop, but they look well-made and should probably work. Given the weight and cost I'd be inclned to investigate other options, especially on bikes without dual suspension.


----------



## SuPrBuGmAn (Jun 20, 2009)

satanas said:


> The seatpost mounted racks tend to either break - often after little use - damage the seatpost or, at best, spin around on the post. They also carry the weight fairly high up. The Topeak racks appear to be a lot stronger than most others but the other problems will still apply, plus they aren't all that cheap; there are one or two others that might do the job, i.e.,


I'm using one of the Topeak MTX beamracks that clamp to the seatpost, $35, doesn't spin around even while railing singletrack with a sleeping bag loaded up(not an expensive lightweight sleeping bag either - talkin cheap and heavy, but well under the racks rated load). The rack itself has held up fine for the few trips I've taken it on and the seatpost doesn't seem to be affected.

Its not light and it does carry the gear high.


----------



## Ze_Zaskar (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm planing an around 4 day self suficient trip for later this year.

My initial plan was to instal a lightweight rear rack and strap a drybag on top. But after some search I see that a seatpack might be lighter, tougher and as well cheaper than the rack+bag (no interest on panniers).
What are your views on this?


----------



## SuPrBuGmAn (Jun 20, 2009)

Ze_Zaskar said:


> My initial plan was to instal a lightweight rear rack and strap a drybag on top. But after some search I see that a seatpack might be lighter, tougher and as well cheaper than the rack+bag (no interest on panniers).
> What are your views on this?


Seatbag would be lighter, and possibly tougher(not sure if I buy that point though). It is almost certainly not cheaper though.


----------



## Ze_Zaskar (Jan 3, 2008)

I hear/read horror stories about breaking rack mounts all the time. Anyone wants to kill the myth?

About the price, BikePack is selling them at a good price:

rackless bikepacking bags

I doubt that a quality rack plus drybag can cost under 60€


----------



## thesergeant (Jun 1, 2006)

If you're going to pick up a seatbag go Porcelain Rocket or Revelate Designs. I've made quite a few bags (frame/tt/hbar/compression/etc) for myself so I know what goes into the construction process and am more critical than most. Their work is really high quality, they use materials that most other guys don't/can't use and have the equipment to see it's done right (high quality bartacking through super thick material). A lot of guys are jumping into the market after reading a few DIY tutorials. I'm all for it but when it comes to a high stress/high wear item like a seat bag get your monies worth and get it from one of the established and experienced guys.


----------



## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

emat said:


> Has anyone seen a Freeload Racks in use yet? The System Looks like a great system for suspension bikes. Rated to 25kg, but relatively expensive.


I haven't ridden with a Freeload rack, but I have ridden a full-suspension bike with an Old Man Mountain rack. Of the two problems (sway and unsuspended weight), the Freeload looks stiff enough to address the former. But unsuspended weight is still an issue with putting a rack on a full-suspension bike. It really seems to do weird things to suspension response.


----------



## SuPrBuGmAn (Jun 20, 2009)

Ze_Zaskar said:


> I hear/read horror stories about breaking rack mounts all the time. Anyone wants to kill the myth?
> 
> About the price, BikePack is selling them at a good price:
> 
> ...


I guess I should clarify that in the US, you're not gonna really find seatbags cheaper than several of the rack options out there.

EU seems to have more of a supply of seatbag options.


----------



## Ze_Zaskar (Jan 3, 2008)

I live in the EU


----------



## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

TobyGadd said:


> ...But unsuspended weight is still an issue with putting a rack on a full-suspension bike. It really seems to do weird things to suspension response.


+1

For me, the whole point of bikepacking with a FS bike is to go far and fast over terrain that requires full-suspension. Suspension works by making as much weight as possible "sprung". Those racks that add to the unsprung weight of the rear wheel like the freeload will seriously compromise ride and handling. Also, most FS seat stays or rear triangles will not be designed to handle those sorts of forces. If heavily loaded I'd be worried about breaking my bike and if lightly loaded what's the point?

I always aim for a good balance of weight distribution between the bike and my back. Weight on your back sucks, but so does a really heavy bike that doesn't handle properly. My current weight distro is about 5kg on my back and about 5kg on the bike (3kg frame bag and 2kg saddlebag) plus two 800ml water bottles on the bike. Weight on the handlebars or weight too far rearward in a saddlebag also make the bike handle funny. Centralise the weight as much as possible and you can barely notice its there.

For FS bikepacking, I'd go with frame/seat bags every time over rear racks.


----------



## ward (Aug 20, 2009)

I think there's plenty of room for both... and some in between. Depends completely on the purpose at hand for me- and the bike and gear you have on hand to use. If your racing the Divide Tour or really need to lay down some record setting miles for sure, spend some dough & get the ultra light set-up. Personally, my time spent camping and enjoying the outdoors (whatever mode of travel I'm choosing) is considered "vacation time" or "freetime". Don't like to fence myself in w/ allot of rules... to the light or the heavy. Might even want to stop and fish or enjoy a cold one w/ a great view along the way. I can certainly imagine some cool, fast, light, mid Summer jaunts- nothin' wrong with that. But nothin' wrong with packing up a little extra for fun & enjoyment in the outdoors via the bike either.

When folks compare "racks" to "rack-less", I often notice just the two extremes being compared- Racks w/ full size touring panniers and ultra light rack-less set-ups. For most of the bike packing I'll be doing, I'll be somewhere in between. The idea that I need to discipline myself to leave the stuff behind that I'd like to enjoy on my vacation seems a little defeating of the purpose of the vacation to me.

I have a couple sets of Overland Equipment "Mini-Bags" I'm currently using to increase my carrying capacity (unfortunatly not available anymore) w/o loading the bike up w/ the full size stuff. They're smaller than anything on the market except for the little Nashbar day trip pan's- which might work just fine IMO for this. I modify my racks to fit them w/ load control straps that hold them very steady on rougher routes.

Here it is packed up for a trip last weekend. Beer, cheese, & etc. on board. A little heavier than some for sure... on the way in anyway, but I don't wan't to hear any complaining when I hand you a mini-grilled cheese sandwich and a beer either!


----------



## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

ward said:


> I think there's plenty of room for both... and some in between.


Yep! Nice setup--looks like fun!


----------



## liricooli (May 26, 2012)

Have anyone tried using a seatpost bag and a Cling-On Seatpost Rear Rack, like this one ?

For me, I feel that it´s really important to be able to hang thing like the sleeping pad, trash and even clothes for drying somewhere on the bike.

While trying to pack with only a frame bag,seatpost bag and a handlebar bag, I really miss the option of just tying/hanging things.

any thoughts or ideas on this issue ?


----------



## D45yth (Jan 30, 2009)

liricooli said:


> Have anyone tried using a seatpost bag and a Cling-On Seatpost Rear Rack, like this one ?
> 
> For me, I feel that it´s really important to be able to hang thing like the sleeping pad, trash and even clothes for drying somewhere on the bike.
> 
> ...


I'd use one or the other, I can't see how they would compliment each other unless the bag was very small? If I fitted my seatpost bag with that rack underneath, there wouldn't be any room to get anything on the rack. (I presume you must just be talking a normal bag not a full sized bikepacking one?).
My seatpost bag had elastic underneath for holding down extra items. I know it would be no good for drying anything, as you would have to put whatever you have under there in a bag to keep it clean though.
The straps on my bar bag can be loosened off to give two loops which can then be done back up to secure items into place. That would maybe be better for drying things?
I've also seen bags with daisy chain loops along their length. Then you can just strap things to them.

My bags are from bikepack.eu. You can see what I'm talking about on there. I didn't want to paste the pics from his site on here.


----------



## liricooli (May 26, 2012)

I´m quite high (1.83m) and usually on the high end of a Medium sized bikes. I prefer a smaller frame because it responses faster.

This results that my seatpost is usually quite high and I might be able to have a seatpost bag and at the lower end of the seatpost a cling-on rack...

I would like to have my sleeping pad / tarptent on it, obviously i´m not planning on having panniers on that rack.


----------



## buckeye24 (Jun 2, 2012)

Seems to have more storage options with frame bag. That being said I have seen many with both.


----------



## spokes-n-sporks (Jun 20, 2012)

vikb said:


> Panniers have their place for big loads.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man.... I'm not sure what's yummier the twinky-pie set up, or those white PR bags. thanks for posting


----------



## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

I know this tread is a bit old, but I have a question for those of you with experience: I have too much gear to carry in a seat/frame/bar bag alone. Would you prefer to run rear racks or a backpack to carry some gear?

I have a nice Bruce Gordon rack and Arkel bags, I can't imagine its THAT much more weight. More importantly I would think weight on my back would get tiresome. Even filling up my pack for a full day ride its pretty heavy and cumbersome.


----------



## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

The answer really depends on what sort of riding you are doing while fully laden. Put as much on your bike as you can, provided it doesn't adversely affect handling or your ability to ride up and over obstacles. The more technical the terrain, the more you need to carry on your back as its easier to move that weight around than trying to get a really heavy bike up and over obstacles.

Some weight on your back isn't a problem if its in a good comfy well fitting pack. Make sure the pack is not too long otherwise it might push at the back of your helmet on really steep descents. You can barely feel 6kg in a good pack.

I always carry a pack because I inevitably ditch my bike slightly off the trail and then hike in further for some sort of summit camp. There's nothing like an evening mountain vista and a morning sunrise.


----------



## ward (Aug 20, 2009)

TigWorld said:


> The answer really depends on what sort of riding you are doing while fully laden. Put as much on your bike as you can, provided it doesn't adversely affect handling or your ability to ride up and over obstacles. The more technical the terrain, the more you need to carry on your back as its easier to move that weight around than trying to get a really heavy bike up and over obstacles.
> 
> Some weight on your back isn't a problem if its in a good comfy well fitting pack. Make sure the pack is not too long otherwise it might push at the back of your helmet on really steep descents. You can barely feel 6kg in a good pack.
> 
> I always carry a pack because I inevitably ditch my bike slightly off the trail and then hike in further for some sort of summit camp. There's nothing like an evening mountain vista and a morning sunrise.


This is good advice for off road tourists. I also ditch the bike for hiking sometimes and in fact, use my own pedal mod's & some old lace up Lakes resoled w/ Vibram soles for better performance off the bike. My pedals will also take a light hiking boot if called for (another story, sorry). My pack is an older Gregory that compresses down to the size of a lg.cycling hydration pack, and expands to a large day & a half-ish pack- sleeping pad straps, lots of strap slots & etc. Also nice to have along on back country trips in case you have a catastrophic bike failure and have to walk out.


----------



## willzager (Oct 20, 2011)

ward said:


> This is good advice for off road tourists. I also ditch the bike for hiking sometimes and in fact, use my own pedal mod's & some old lace up Lakes resoled w/ Vibram soles for better performance off the bike. My pedals will also take a light hiking boot if called for (another story, sorry). My pack is an older Gregory that compresses down to the size of a lg.cycling hydration pack, and expands to a large day & a half-ish pack- sleeping pad straps, lots of strap slots & etc. Also nice to have along on back country trips in case you have a catastrophic bike failure and have to walk out.


I like the sound of your setup! Could you explain your pedal mods and maybe post some pics or model of your pack? Thanks!


----------



## cable_actuated (Jun 7, 2012)

When riding technical singletrack (i.e. the Colorado Trail) I prefer a frame bag, seat bag, and front rack with a single bag mounted on top - not panniers on the sides. I used to run a handlebar bag, but on long trips you can wear the outer lining off your cable housing. With a handlebar bag you also have to get creative with how you arrange your cockpit to minimize cable interference. I found that the front rack also gets the weight a little lower.

Another good looking option for the front would be a Salsa "everthing rack" mounted on either side of the fork. slowerthansnot is running that on his TDR rig and it looks pretty simple. They stick about as much as panniers but weigh a lot less. The big advantage would be getting the weight nice and low.


----------



## ward (Aug 20, 2009)

willzager said:


> I like the sound of your setup! Could you explain your pedal mods and maybe post some pics or model of your pack? Thanks!


Here's some of my pedals, I've done this to several different brands over the years, including Kona's, Kore's, Azonics, etc... The problems most people have w/ traditional toe clips is that 99% (or more) of the time they're using a pedel platform that is too narrow. Most pedals that are mede for toe clips & straps are narrower than the soles that ride on them... that causes the shoe (and it's tread) to get caught up in the strap going in and out. Also tough to keep your feet in the right place when pedaling unclipped or w/ loose straps. Using DH platforms gives you a wider and longer (and grippier) surface to work with and gives you a much better angle on the strap.



I'm using the largest toe clips I can find and cutting off the flange that usually mounts into the front of the pedal, trimming it to fit length wise too, and mounting directly into the platform. On these Tioga's I had some old derailleur adjustment screws from the junk box that happened to be the same threads as the traction pins on the pedals(had to grind them down length wise). The Tiogas had several "optional" holes drilled & tapped all the way across the front & rear edges so I could position them as I pleased w/o drilling. Some of the other's I've had to drill and use small bolts & nuts.

I've also reformed them a bit. Take the toe clip (plastic ones obviously) and using the pedal as a handle, dip it into boiling water for a bit to heat it up (obviously w/ the strap off) and when you pull it out (might want to use gloves) you can bend them around to change they're shape a bit... make them taller in the toe or etc. I can fit a light weight hiking boot in these if I've got allot of hiking planned.

And if the going gets really rough and I want the option of putting a foot down allot, I can tie them up out of the way and use the open platform side... then I'm just a "kid on a bike".



Here's my older Lake's I had modified by the local shoe repair shop. The guy that did them is also a MTBer. He ground 'em down, filled in the spd hole and mounted up some Vibram soles... gave me a little bit more heel too. They are exactly what I was going for- a bike shoe combined w/ a light hiking boot.



And here's my old Gregory pack... getting pretty old now. Holding up well! Shoulder straps come right out of the top of the pack so it rides low and doesn't bump the helmet on down hills. Just a simple lg. day pack w/ lot's of "lash on" options.



My self propelled camper...


----------



## D45yth (Jan 30, 2009)

What is the main idea for using toe clips? Is it so your feet don't slide forward? When I was a kid, I used to cut them above the bit with the writing in the middle and not bother with the straps.


----------



## ward (Aug 20, 2009)

D45yth said:


> What is the main idea for using toe clips? Is it so your feet don't slide forward? When I was a kid, I used to cut them above the bit with the writing in the middle and not bother with the straps.


I think you can buy "strapless" clips now... the straps just let you tighten them down for a solid connection and moire efficient pedaling where applicable. And it gives me something to tie them down (up?) to the pedal when I don't want to use them. I'm kind of an old fella that grew up w/ toe clips and never got used to SPD's anyway. I have a few set's and have tried them all... but personally like my "hybrid" DH/Clip combo much better... especially for adventure riding. I have a set on my CX "commuter" too so I can ride it w/ any kind of shoe around town and for arrends or going to lunch. Also great for riding the fat bike in the snow w/ boots or on the sand w/ sandals.


----------



## DebKirk (Jan 14, 2010)

We run the Topeak MTX TrunkBag on Topeak racks. The whole rig including the rack is about $140. We were drawn to this rig because it is adaptive. The bag slides onto the rack via a slide track on the rack.. It locks into place. Because the bag comes off easily, you can take it off and use it like a daypack if you are going to leave your bike out of your sight. It even comes with a shoulder strap for that purpose.
The center compartment is really roomy ; enough for a stove and three days worth of food. There is a water bottle pouch on the back of the bag as well as a slot to put a tail light since the bag might cover what you have. The coolest thing is that there are side pockets on the bag which store the panniers. If you need them, there they are. If you don' t, they are out of sight.
Having said that, we found that the Lookout by REI suits our needs as far as on the body carry. Well made and reasonable, the Lookout hold 40 liters ( or 2500 cubic inches ) The pack sits high enough on the back to keep it off your backside and away from any packs mounted on racks. It might be overstating, but I am sure I could pack for a 2 week stand alone trip using just these two bags.
Oh, the Lookout has a pocket for a hydration bladder.


----------



## ylrus (Jul 7, 2012)

Just purchased / installed the same racks / trunkbag today. Couldn't be more pleased with the setup.


----------



## bandit1 (Jun 27, 2011)

satanas said:


> The seatpost mounted racks tend to either break - often after little use - damage the seatpost or, at best, spin around on the post. They also carry the weight fairly high up. The Topeak racks appear to be a lot stronger than most others but the other problems will still apply, plus they aren't all that cheap; there are one or two others that might do the job, i.e., IIRC Aekel do one too, but these are not at all cheap. The soft bags from Revelate et al ought to be a lot harder to damage, but the cheapest option for luggage carrying is probably still panniers plus racks.
> 
> FWIW, Cass Gilbert (cited a few posts above) has used panniers, trailers and soft bags extensively - trailers commercially - so I'd pay particular attention to what he has to say. His blog is excellent too, plus he's a nice guy. :thumbsup:


I am using a seatpost mount rack purchased from my local walmart... no problems with it so far and no spinning or turning either. Becasue I have a FS bike, I have to keep mine up as high as I can get it otherwise it sits on the tire and wont let the tire move. Other than that no problems from mine...

Also I dont carry much on it, just work cloths when I commute and some other items to fix the bike should it break when riding. When on the trail, I swap out the work cloths for a 1st aid kit. I am well under the 20 pound weight limit of the rack.


----------



## bandit1 (Jun 27, 2011)

not sure if there is a thread on this or not, but since we are all talking about racks, bags, and such, for those who spend multiple days out, what are your sleeping arangments? are there tents that are better for bike packing?


----------



## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

bandit1 said:


> not sure if there is a thread on this or not, but since we are all talking about racks, bags, and such, for those who spend multiple days out, what are your sleeping arangments? are there tents that are better for bike packing?


lots of good information 
http://forums.mtbr.com/bikepacking-bike-expedition/bikepacking-hammocks-582992.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/bikepacking-bike-expedition/sleeping-bag-bikepacking-762231.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/bikepacking-bike-expedition/shelters-768567.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/bikepacking-bike-expedition/warm-weather-bivy-ultralight-tent-787924.html


----------



## MagicBadger (Aug 3, 2012)

Do you need to take the saddle off to get take those seat bags with you? Can't really tell from the pictures.


----------



## Tinman (Aug 18, 2013)

ward said:


> I think there's plenty of room for both... and some in between. Depends completely on the purpose at hand for me- and the bike and gear you have on hand to use. If your racing the Divide Tour or really need to lay down some record setting miles for sure, spend some dough & get the ultra light set-up. Personally, my time spent camping and enjoying the outdoors (whatever mode of travel I'm choosing) is considered "vacation time" or "freetime". Don't like to fence myself in w/ allot of rules... to the light or the heavy. Might even want to stop and fish or enjoy a cold one w/ a great view along the way. I can certainly imagine some cool, fast, light, mid Summer jaunts- nothin' wrong with that. But nothin' wrong with packing up a little extra for fun & enjoyment in the outdoors via the bike either.
> 
> When folks compare "racks" to "rack-less", I often notice just the two extremes being compared- Racks w/ full size touring panniers and ultra light rack-less set-ups. For most of the bike packing I'll be doing, I'll be somewhere in between. The idea that I need to discipline myself to leave the stuff behind that I'd like to enjoy on my vacation seems a little defeating of the purpose of the vacation to me.
> 
> ...


Ward,
I like the way you think  and that is a very fine older Montero you have....
Ditto to your thoughts use / toe clips.
Those are awesome mini, waterproof panniers you have. I had a look at Nashbar, water proof, fronts per your rec. and they appear similar size, good value.

All/Other
* just my .02 cents. I luv a rear, utility MTB rack and have use one always sense the early 90's, rigid days. I set up my sons (now 23) and of course I put a rack on it 
* EXTREMELY VERSATILE
* Double as a fender/mudd guard - add a flap like shown here on mine. 
* Having a wet,crud back from rear tire fling is not a lot of fun 
* Yes they add a pound or so but they are worth a hundred
* Panniers = yes, but No they don't have to be large,bulky as Ward has shown and they are very handy easy access?
* Back when in time , MTB'er,bike packer,adventure tour cyclist mostly just used a dry bag/canoe bag on top rather than panniers anyways. This combined with a large saddle bag for tools,etc. AKA- where those current saddle/dry bags came from some are using. You get more gear in a standard saddle bag / large dry bag behind on rack than those seat post mounted versions. Add modest panniers and put the dry bag on top for big,comphy trips. Personally I only use panniers for a large trip. Use them more actually for utility runs, hauling cargo back to the house.
*Looks of pannier/comments ?? Personally those frame bags (to my eyes) are far from the best look'in things I have ever seen.
* Wind / Aerodynamics - modest size panniers are behind your legs. How often is the wind, dead head on ? One in twelve chance? Frame bags in a cross wind?
* MTB racks were made to get the weight off your back. For short trips I often use a nice Under Armor, waterproof BP but limit it to 5-6#'s for comfort (cloths,smart phone,chewys,jacket,etc.)
* Dry sacks/canoe bags, are readily available, 100% DRY/WATERPROOF, economical and versatile.

* Plenty of neat new bags out there now. IMO, besides a tool tote's saddle bag you still can't beat simple,effective , dry sacks and a rack. Smaller, waterproof panniers are nothing more than dry/canoe bags - reconfigured handy.

The more the better. The r MTB Rack is MOST proven,versatile and here to stay. I would not have a MTB,Cross.......really ANY bike with out one, except for race.

Nashbar Small Front Panniers (just use them on the rear or both)
Nashbar Waterproof Front Panniers Review | Cycle Panniers

Enjoy the outdoors.........


----------

