# On wheels



## ritopc (Jul 3, 2004)

Here's the thing

I ordered a hope pro2 rear hub for my bike from Chad, he hasn't sent it yet and I am having second thought about ordering JUST the hub. I am thinking in getting a complete rear wheel and i'll tell you why hoping you can give me your wise advice.

My rear wheel as you might know uses a 150X12 rear hub, whch is not a frequent sizing. I dunno about this, but would one need a true stand to properly lace a wheel? would it'd need to have some kind of not-so-common interface to fix my wheel on it? is this right? do oyu think I might have some complications finding a competent builder having such a tool (I can only think on either Abel or the guy at riders in Ajusco). What is your word on this?

I don't want my wheel being laced by someone not having the right tool for the job. Is my reasoning justified or i'm just tripping?

OTOH, If I were to ask Chad to build me a complete wheel, which would be a good rim, both, performance and economy wise. I was thinking on either Mavic 321's or Sun Singletrack's laced with DT competition (32 spokes, 3x pattern). Trailpimp lite's could also be an option but I rather not having a wider rim in the back. What do you think of this combo? any suggestions? I am looking for some strong yet kinda light wheels (my Supra N weight 660 g. and I found them quite reliable). You know the kinda ridding I do, and at my age is probably not getting more extreme that that.

Any suggestions? bulding in Mexico (using my Supra N) vs Chad building (new wheel)?


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

I say building in Mexico.... 100 pesos for re-lacing with Scott Riders. (I'm relacing my WTB Dual Duty FR with a Quando TX Hub with them)

Supra N is a good rim, I think you should keep it.


----------



## ritopc (Jul 3, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> I say building in Mexico.... 100 pesos for re-lacing with Scott Riders. (I'm relacing my WTB Dual Duty FR with a Quando TX Hub with them)
> 
> Supra N is a good rim, I think you should keep it.


I know they are good and a good option. My only concern, though, is on the availability of the mechs here in Mexico to properly lace my oddly-sized hub. I am not sure if it would be a problem to find a place with the right true stand interface... well, I don't even know if that is an issue at all. If not an issue, I'll certainly lace my current Supra N.


----------



## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

Do it with Abel. He is sometimes hard to get a hold of but he is good. 

He got me my DT 4.1 rims and laced them. Even though he put on road spokes  the wheels are true to this day.


----------



## 545cu4ch (Aug 11, 2005)

elmadaleno said:


> Do it with Abel. He is sometimes hard to get a hold of but he is good.
> 
> He got me my DT 4.1 rims and laced them. Even though he put on road spokes  the wheels are true to this day.


 Get a Syncros dp32 from cyclo ride  We went yesterday and they have some nice wheels and rims there. The white syncross rim was 1000 pesos and a white Azonic Outlaw wheelset was 3800. Not so bad....


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

545cu4ch said:


> Get a Syncros dp32 from cyclo ride  We went yesterday and they have some nice wheels and rims there. The white syncross rim was 1000 pesos and a white Azonic Outlaw wheelset was 3800. Not so bad....


The Outlaw was 3600


----------



## ritopc (Jul 3, 2004)

Thank you all for your comments, but maybe I wasn't clear with my first question. I'll try to be more clear.

1) Economy wise, I will lace my current my Supra N to my new hub. But that will only happen if:
2) I can find someone competent in Mexico with the right tools to lace a 150mm spacing hub with a 12mm Tru Axle (common hubs have 135mm spacing, with a 10mm axel). If I understand well, the builder has to have a true stand able to fit a hub of my oddly size.
3) That being said, I wont buy a rim in Mexico to build a wheel in Mexico. The only reason why I would buy a new rim (not using my Supra N) is coz I would have to lace the wheel somewhere else (ie USA) coz none competent builder here in Mexico have the right tools. If I were to build a wheel with a new rim, that will be done in the US with Chad (well respected bulder with way more options of rims), so prices of rims here in Mexico are out of question.

I don't doubt the prices for outlaws are really good, but I it is not an option for me, I am only in the market for a rear wheel (well, actually a rear hub) and already bought the hub. and 1000 bucks for a hub is just too much for me: those syncros are nice though.

In the same line, I know Abel is a respectable builder, and he's one of my first options here in Mexico, but, would he have the right tools??? would he be able to properly lace my wheel??... well, maybe I should ask that to Abel instead.

Anyways, thanks for the help guys.


----------



## 545cu4ch (Aug 11, 2005)

ritopc said:


> I don't doubt the prices for outlaws are really good, but I it is not an option for me, I am only in the market for a rear wheel (well, actually a rear hub) and already bought the hub. and 1000 bucks for a hub is just too much for me: those syncros are nice though


Yeah. I was just mentioning that those rims look tempting 

ot: Are you going tomorrow? At what time??


----------



## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

ritopc said:


> Here's the thing
> 
> I ordered a hope pro2 rear hub for my bike from Chad, he hasn't sent it yet and I am having second thought about ordering JUST the hub. I am thinking in getting a complete rear wheel and i'll tell you why hoping you can give me your wise advice.....


Rito.. Rito...tsk tsk tsk... before ordering my long overdue wish list, THAT was what i wanted, just a nicer rear hub! Now, eeek!


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

ritopc said:


> In the same line, I know Abel is a respectable builder, and he's one of my first options here in Mexico, but, would he have the right tools??? would he be able to properly lace my wheel??... well, maybe I should ask that to Abel instead.
> 
> Anyways, thanks for the help guys.


Abel has a road / XC background, even though I THINK that his stand can take a 150 hub, but he was scratching his head when I showed him my flangeless hubs... I would sway to contacting the guys who service DH bikes at the Ajusco or the likes.

He may not even know if the dishing is different... but neither do I.

Go with the DH specialists....


----------



## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

Warp said:


> ....flangeless hubs... ......


OT, but, what are flangeless hubs?


----------



## 545cu4ch (Aug 11, 2005)

rzozaya1969 said:


> OT, but, what are flangeless hubs?


 A type of hub specifically designed for women


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

545cu4ch said:


> A type of hub specifically designed for women


It was made in conjunction with Presta valves, Gravity Retarders, DT Roadie spokes and Manitou forks :thumbsup:


----------



## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

rzozaya1969 said:


> OT, but, what are flangeless hubs?


Maybe those are Mavic style hubs for straight spokes? My Mavics don`t have flanges, but I don`t know if they make heavier models for more than trail riding (models not for women).

Rito, I saw a link somewhere on MTBR to a site on wheel building where the guy used an old road fork mounted to a bench as a truing stand. To do rear wheels for mtb (15mm wider than his fork), he hung the wheel on the outside of the fork by one side of the axel. Probably more eficient to keep the wheel inside the stand because you don`t have to keep turning it around, but apparently not necessary. On the other hand, the other things that Warp brought up make sense. If that particular builder isn`t accustomed to building downhill wheels, it would better to go somewhere else. At least that`s what I think.


----------



## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

rodar y rodar said:


> Maybe those are Mavic style hubs for straight spokes? My Mavics don`t have flanges, but I don`t know if they make heavier models for more than trail riding (models not for women)..


They have the Dee-Max and Dee-something wich are heavier duty.


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

rzozaya1969 said:


> OT, but, what are flangeless hubs?


REAL men hubs... 

Flangeless hubs are just that, hubs that have no flanges... just slots drilled on the hub body... Just like my old and ageing Shimano 555 hubs.

If you've seen my wheels, you've seen flangeless hubs.


----------



## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

Warp said:


> REAL men hubs...
> 
> Flangeless hubs are just that, hubs that have no flanges... just slots drilled on the hub body... Just like my old and ageing Shimano 555 hubs.
> 
> If you've seen my wheels, you've seen flangeless hubs.


What's the advantage/disadvante of them? they seem harder to service, but I'm not a mechanic..


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

rzozaya1969 said:


> What's the advantage/disadvante of them? they seem harder to service, but I'm not a mechanic..


Same thing.... but with less weight at the hub, more flex at the spokes.


----------



## tucky (Dec 21, 2005)

rzozaya1969 said:


> They have the Dee-Max and Dee-something wich are heavier duty.


Deemax 12x150 like you say are the standart hubs for DH. so you are in the right page, like most guys said, I wouldn't trust the lacing to someone not acustom to do so. A fall sometimes can get pretty nasty, I don'd do DH, but I can trust it would get uglier then my last fall on a singletrack, good luck finding straight pull spokes, I have a crossland wheelset and is a pain to get spokes, don't even get me started on original rim strips.


----------



## ritopc (Jul 3, 2004)

Thank you all for your comments



rzozaya1969 said:


> Rito.. Rito...tsk tsk tsk... before ordering my long overdue wish list, THAT was what i wanted, just a nicer rear hub! Now, eeek!


hahaha... sorry, a rear hub, or a wheel at most, is what I am intending to buy. Nothing more nothing less. I am sure I ´ll hee better luck containing UGI

As for the spokes, no problems here; i bought a Hope hub which is a flaged hub. No straight spokes for this guy.

Interesting point about Abele you mentioned Warp. I will give him a call see if he has done this before. Yup the guys are ajusco might be good lacing wheels, but hell they are expensive. I am gonna call Chad to get a quotation on the building. I am also going to call the guys in bicigato, they have like 25 years of experience and if they have the right tools I am sure they can do the job.

As for the tools, the builder must have the right tools; no room for improvisations here. I am sure some people can build wheels using some innnovative ways, but for me, that is like trying to level the foundations of a building with out using and inclinometer (yup, that word exists), it can be done but it wouldn´t be a professional job.

Again, thank you guys.

Roberto, how much did your build cost (shipping excluded)? and what are the specs? It will help me to get an idea on a single wheel build.


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

ritopc said:


> that is like trying to level the foundations of a building with out using and inclinometer (yup, that word exists), it can be done but it wouldn´t be a professional job.


We use nothing but "teodolitos" for the rough stuff (to half mm accuracy) and for rotating equipment (read: Gas Turbines and or Compressors) digital levels for fine alignment... for coupling alignment nothing less than lasers. 

Total stations are those things Surveyors use... but with GPS and fully digitalized.


----------



## Captain Jack Sparrow (Jan 26, 2006)

ayer soñé con la bella Inés!

Oh bella inés que hermosa eres inés... !!!
O Inés que linda eres mujer!!!
por ti no dejare de suspirar más..
aunque tenga que ver los 25+

aiho aiho!!!! :eekster:  :blush: :blush: :blush: :blush: ut: 

hay que brindar por las mujeres bellas... ( y por los sueños güajiros )

salud!


----------



## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

Warp said:


> Abel has a road / XC background, even though I THINK that his stand can take a 150 hub, but he was scratching his head when I showed him my flangeless hubs... I would sway to contacting the guys who service DH bikes at the Ajusco or the likes.
> 
> He may not even know if the dishing is different... but neither do I.
> 
> Go with the DH specialists....


Yep.. Warp is right.. go with the DH guys... besides it shouldn't be that hard... any shop with a Park stand or similar is likely to have (or be able to get/borrow) the right extensions for a 150mm hub...


----------



## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

Warp said:


> Same thing.... but with less weight at the hub, more flex at the spokes.


And sometimes.. spokes break more often at the head.... but that happened only in some of the Deore hubs...others worked perfectly...


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

crisillo said:


> And sometimes.. spokes break more often at the head.... but that happened only in some of the Deore hubs...others worked perfectly...


}

Tell me about it.... :bluefrown:

I've broken more spokes (three) on this hubs than on all my other wheels. They need perfect tensioning.

Problem with the Deores is you still have shear stress at the head unlike any other flangeless hub where you use straight pull spokes.


----------



## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

Warp said:


> }
> 
> Tell me about it.... :bluefrown:
> 
> ...


Yeah.. but that won't be a problem much longer, right? (Please say you will build the Hopes soon )


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

crisillo said:


> Yeah.. but that won't be a problem much longer, right? (Please say you will build the Hopes soon )


They're being built....


----------



## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

Warp said:


> They're being built....


Yes!!!! did you move your current rims or did you change something else (besides the hubs obviously)?


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

crisillo said:


> Yes!!!! did you move your current rims or did you change something else (besides the hubs obviously)?


I'll just say old wheels are going to the thrash can...


----------



## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

crisillo said:


> Yes!!!! did you move your current rims or did you change something else (besides the hubs obviously)?


I'm thinkin' that if Magura ever decides to make a rim, Warp will be waiting in line...


----------



## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

Warp said:


> I'll just say old wheels are going to the thrash can...


Ok, spill the beans... what rims did you get in the end... X455s? spokes...DT Comps?


----------



## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

rzozaya1969 said:


> I'm thinkin' that if Magura ever decides to make a rim, Warp will be waiting in line...


JEJEJEJE... well Magura knows DT rocks... so they use DT on their wheelsets.... they do put Magura stickers on them though.... oh oh.. maybe now Warp will ask for those stickers :lol:


----------



## ritopc (Jul 3, 2004)

*Will it be a complete wheel?*

I talked to Abel in the phone and found out that lacing my current rim is like 40bucks cheaper that getting a new wheel&#8230; what about that?. Abel said that is almost sure that I'd need to buy the hole box of spokes to lace my wheel which would make that option just marginally cheaper compared to getting a new wheel from Chad.

That been said, I am seriously considering on getting the hole wheel; it would be a lil more expensive but I'd get to have a spare rear wheel&#8230; you´ll never know.

I told Chad about my riding style and he suggested me the Syncros DP28, which are lighter and narrower than the DPS32 (both good thing as a rear rim option). I am pretty sure the DP28 can withstand the abuse I give to my bike, coz I don´t do anything crazy nor I plan to do anything really crazy in the future. What do you think, is this a good option? I am also considering the Mavics 321 as I told you previously.

Is there anymore options worth to look into? It has to be relatively strong yet light enough to pedal the long loop at SNT. Please comment in this matter

As for my final decision, I still need to call other places to get quotations on wheel building, as well as measure my rear hub to find out if I can use my current spokes and rim with the hope pro2.

Thank you all for your advice


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

crisillo said:


> Ok, spill the beans... what rims did you get in the end... X455s? spokes...DT Comps?


Rims: Alex DP20 Rear / Alex FD28 Front
Spokes: DT Competition
Hubs: Hope Bulb Rear / Hope XC Front


----------



## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

Warp said:


> Rims: Alex DP20 Rear / Alex FD28 Front
> Spokes: DT Competition
> Hubs: Hope Bulb Rear / Hope XC Front


Sweet! Congrats!

Please post some pics when you get them! :thumbsup:


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

ritopc said:


> I talked to Abel in the phone and found out that lacing my current rim is like 40bucks cheaper that getting a new wheel&#8230; what about that?. Abel said that is almost sure that I'd need to buy the hole box of spokes to lace my wheel which would make that option just marginally cheaper compared to getting a new wheel from Chad.
> 
> That been said, I am seriously considering on getting the hole wheel; it would be a lil more expensive but I'd get to have a spare rear wheel&#8230; you´ll never know.
> 
> ...


DT Swiss E540... equal in profile and in almost every aspect to the 5.1d, but the seam is pin jointed as opposed to welded on the 5.1 and like 40grs heavier at 540grs (hence the name).

Price should be around 40~45 bucks.

Syncros are nice!


----------



## ritopc (Jul 3, 2004)

Warp said:


> DT Swiss E540... equal in profile and in almost every aspect to the 5.1d, but the seam is pin jointed as opposed to welded on the 5.1 and like 40grs heavier at 540grs (hence the name).
> 
> Price should be around 40~45 bucks.
> 
> Syncros are nice!


uhmm... could you explain the difference between pin, welded and sleeved... i quite don't understand what they are not the pros and cons

Cheers,


----------



## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

ritopc said:


> uhmm... could you explain the difference between pin, welded and sleeved... i quite don't understand what they are not the pros and cons
> 
> Cheers,


Welded is usually lighter
Sleeved means the two sides overlap a bit
Pinned the fixture is done through a pin instead of welded (I would expect that the pinned ones need to be sleeved (overlap))


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

My comments inserted on Cris' accurate description....

As an additional note, the non-welded ones exhibit the joint on the rim unless it's machined off. This is detrimental on a vee-brake rim, but not important on disc ones.



crisillo said:


> Welded is usually lighter = High-End, the rim is "seamless" so to speak and it's resistance is the same all around, DT goes a bit further and shaves a bit of material to make the area of same stiffness as the rest and do not create a stress riser
> 
> Sleeved means the two sides overlap a bit = Mid-End, this adds a bit of weight but the area gets a bit reinforced, so the joint is not weak at the cost of some added weight and a bit of "unbalance" in a direction that is not critical to the rim
> 
> Pinned the fixture is done through a pin instead of welded (I would expect that the pinned ones need to be sleeved (overlap)= Low-End, the joint is weak, with added weight as the only thing holding the rim together are two small diameter pins


----------



## ritopc (Jul 3, 2004)

*what about spokes?*

It turns out I decided to get a new wheel, at the end I think it was a better option.

Thanks to warp and other guys in the forum, I am going for the d321's (nowadays also known as EX729);. a high end DH/FR rim with only good comments about it, and at a very good price.

Now I have yet to decide on the spokes, I was first thinking on the Champion's 14g. they are straight and have pure strenght. But now I am confused whether it would be better to get some Competitions 14g/15g instead.

Please help me clarify these:

Champions = straight spokes, and very stiff due to its constant width. This will gimme a ver solid wheel

Competitions= butted spokes, some of the force is absorved by the flexing of the spoke, hence the rim doesn't receive such a hard impact as with the champions. It makes for a lighter wheel (we are talking about grams really). Stiff as champions wheels?, dunno.

So could some one help me here with the pros and cons. At the end I think either selection may be pretty much the same and the difference in cost is like 10 buck (which is pretty much nothing anyway)

So what to choose???

My third option would be the Revolutions, they seem to be working fine on Mada's bike. Or maybe I could be more extreme and get some aerolite's


----------



## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

ritopc said:


> It turns out I decided to get a new wheel, at the end I think it was a better option.
> 
> Thanks to warp and other guys in the forum, I am going for the d321's (nowadays also known as EX729);. a high end DH/FR rim with only good comments about it, and at a very good price.
> 
> ...


The competitions could allow to save some grams and with a good wheelbuilder they should be just as durable as the Champions... if you wanna go for "all strength" stick with the Champions, I'd say..


----------



## ritopc (Jul 3, 2004)

what about people saying buildings with butted spokes make for stronger wheels (maybe not stiffer, yet stronger)?


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

ritopc said:


> what about people saying buildings with butted spokes make for stronger wheels (maybe not stiffer, yet stronger)?


Makes sense. Butted spokes allow you to use more material at the ends of the spokes where the stress is high and it's the worst kind of stress... shear. Most materials are very good under tension, best at compression and "weak" at shear. At the body of the spoke you have only tension and the reduction in cross section makes for a more elastic spoke. This is good for strength overall but "bad" for flex. The wheel will not feel as stiff, but at proper tension, the wheel will allow for some deformation and putting less stress on the head of the spokes at least less impact stress, which is good for durability.

Obviously, if you can get spokes that are thicker at the ends (there are, Wheelsmith and DT both have spokes for Heavy Duty that are single butted or reinforced at the ends, yet butted), this is even more true.

As a proof of concept, I've never seen a spoke broke in the middle... Maybe one or two that have broken at the point where it rubs with another spoke, but that's yet another situation.


----------



## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

Hey Rito, how about just straightening some cloth hangers. They will be pretty cheap and wide! Honestly, I have no idea on what option you should go.

Congrats on the wheel!


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Check this out... I think you can get away with the DB14 or XL13...

http://www.wheelsmith.com/index_files/wsspokes.htm


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Yup, the 729 are a tough piece of metal rito, that will wold anything, and look nice 

Hey, just to hijack the tread a bit, are you going tomorrow to SNT?


----------

