# Sole stiffness for flat pedals? So many choices.



## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

I am currently on a very old (10yrs) set of 661 shoes. I am in the market for new shoes and was overwhelmed by the amount of choices. I do a lot of XC riding w/ standing climbs so I would assume a stiff sole would help in power transfer? I also don't need absolute super grip as I like to adjust my foot position easily. 

I thought it would be a good idea to hit up some of my LBS to actually try the shoes on but wearing a size 12 most would mean having to order. Thanks.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

With flat pedals it's the pedal's platform that supports your foot. IMO, stiffness of the sole doesn't much matter. I like to be able to feel where the pedal is under my foot and soles that are too stiff don't allow that. Most 510 and Shimano flat pedal shoes I've tried are good in this respect as they are just flexible enough. 

On the typical relatively small SPD pedal, a stiff sole is needed to support a broader area of the foot.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Lone Rager said:


> With flat pedals it's the pedal's platform that supports your foot. IMO, stiffness of the sole doesn't much matter. I like to be able to feel where the pedal is under my foot and soles that are too stiff don't allow that. Most 510 and Shimano flat pedal shoes I've tried are good in this respect as they are just flexible enough.
> 
> On the typical relatively small SPD pedal, a stiff sole is needed to support a broader area of the foot.


Currently on rather large platforms : https://www.modernbike.com/black-ops-torqlite-ul-cnc-9-16-black-pedals

What made me think about sole stiffness was putting around on my Shimano SPD shoes. I could tell a differences on putting the power down on standing climbs but obviously I had little traction due to the aggressive tread lugs.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Yeah. I've ridden SPD shoes on flat pedals in various situations and it was less than ideal. The pedal engagement and feel I get from a proper flat pedal shoe helps a lot.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

I really don't know if it makes a difference in power output but I do like a relatively stiff shoe for riding with flat pedals. The regular Fiveten Freeriders are too flimsy for me. They do feel somewhat less efficient and my feet can hurt on more serious descents. I like the Fiveten Freerider Pro's. 

Also, as mentioned, having the right size pedal helps a lot too.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

jeremy3220 said:


> I really don't know if it makes a difference in power output but I do like a relatively stiff shoe for riding with flat pedals. The regular Fiveten Freeriders are too flimsy for me. They do feel somewhat less efficient and my feet can hurt on more serious descents. I like the Fiveten Freerider Pro's.
> 
> Also, as mentioned, having the right size pedal helps a lot too.


Yeah, i put a carbon fiber plates in my 5 10 shoes so my feet don't hurt on flat pedals

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jeremy3220 said:


> I really don't know if it makes a difference in power output but I do like a relatively stiff shoe for riding with flat pedals. The regular Fiveten Freeriders are too flimsy for me. They do feel somewhat less efficient and my feet can hurt on more serious descents. I like the Fiveten Freerider Pro's.
> 
> Also, as mentioned, having the right size pedal helps a lot too.


I think the pain from repeated impacts is a definite solid reason to seek stiffer soles. But for more xc pedaly stuff, I don't like an excessively stiff sole. I used to ride regular Freeriders and agree that they're too flexy. I actually ripped the sole because the shoe flexed too much. But I also got to demo Freerider Pros and I felt like those are a bit too stiff for pedaly xc riding. I felt too disconnected from the pedals. I see the advantage of the extra stiffness when it gets more rowdy, though. I settled on the Freerider Contacts as a middle ground and they've served me well for the most part.


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## 2wheelrevolution (Nov 1, 2006)

Ride Concepts Hellion or Livewire would be perfect for you.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I have been riding flats for a long while, got away from cleats when I rode muni, stayed with flats on bikes, biggest issues is finding a flat sole shoe that has enough mid foot support. I even went so far as to have a cobbler put a hiking sole on a cleated riding shoe.

There lots of shoes out there for flats, but many are skate inspired so they tend to wrap around the pedal, which puts a lot of pressure on the arch. There are a few that are more like slippers (Shimano), which are less skate inspired and definitely not stiff in the mid sole.

I started wearing RC shoes when they came out, got a pair of Wildcats, they were stiff at first, but softened quite a bit, RC warranteed them after six months use (serious good CS!). I went and bought a pair of Hellions and I couldn't be happier.

The Hellions have retained middsole support and stiffness after nine months of constant use, no breakdown or excessive wear on the uppers or sole, stickiness is adequate for all mountain riding, good for hike a bike, quick drying, and not that heavy.

These are probably my favorite shoe since the Teva; though they are a much better shoe than the Teva.

I wear a size 13 in a street shoe and sizing is spot on.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

rod9301 said:


> Yeah, i put a carbon fiber plates in my 5 10 shoes so my feet don't hurt on flat pedals
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


I tried this for muni, but all you get is a a hard surface under your foot and lots of sole wrap on the pedal.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Lone Rager said:


> With flat pedals it's the pedal's platform that supports your foot. IMO, stiffness of the sole doesn't much matter. I like to be able to feel where the pedal is under my foot and soles that are too stiff don't allow that. Most 510 and Shimano flat pedal shoes I've tried are good in this respect as they are just flexible enough.
> 
> On the typical relatively small SPD pedal, a stiff sole is needed to support a broader area of the foot.


This ^ is a huge misnomer in the industry, which is why flat pedal shoes are being made overly soft.

I think this is because folks think flat pedal riders are only riding recreationally or jump lines, when the reality is more than 60% of all riders (see PB poll) ride all mountain on flats.

No pedal is big enough to support the arch, so you do need a supportive midsole in your shoe, esp if you're big and like to hammer.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Nurse Ben said:


> This ^ is a huge misnomer in the industry, ...


Misnomer???

Totally agree that there are many skater type flat pedal shoes that are very soft and flexible, but there are certainly others with appropriate level of stiffness and support. I'm not saying get something too soft, I'm just saying don't get something that's not too stiff either That's coming from clipless shoes with super stiff soles. I'm also saying that "power transfer" in this context is a red herring.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> This ^ is a huge misnomer in the industry, which is why flat pedal shoes are being made overly soft.
> 
> I think this is because folks think flat pedal riders are only riding recreationally or jump lines, when the reality is more than 60% of all riders (see PB poll) ride all mountain on flats.
> 
> No pedal is big enough to support the arch, so you do need a supportive midsole in your shoe, esp if you're big and like to hammer.


I put my foot so the arch is over the axle

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

As a couple people have already stated, the regular freeriders feel too flimsy. I switched to RC Hellions after that but they didn't have half sized at the time and the 10 was a bit small which led to some discomfort. I dealt with that for 6 months and then decided to try a pair of Freerider Pros. I have been running them for 3 months and I have been really happy with them. Not quite as stiff as the Hellions but significantly more support than the regular Freerider. All was well until I realized that that one of the soles already has a hole in it. I am kind of hard on shoes but my RC soles were still in great shape after 6 months. All that to say, I am glad RC offers half sizes now....


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## Lochnes (Apr 27, 2016)

I do +100 km rides on flat”s and then the soles are too soft. The 5-10 freerider pro”s are definetely stiffer then the freeriders. i also use insoles, that does not stiffen the sole bit puts the support on the right place. really helps. try it.

stiffer soles do come ar the cost of less “feel”. so do not throw the old freeriders away they are soft for a reason. you just suffer from having another reason then their intended use.

that said, flat pedals will never win the “efficient when stamping hill up” competition so you also just have to train harder...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Lone Rager said:


> Misnomer???
> 
> Totally agree that there are many skater type flat pedal shoes that are very soft and flexible, but there are certainly others with appropriate level of stiffness and support. I'm not saying get something too soft, I'm just saying don't get something that's not too stiff either That's coming from clipless shoes with super stiff soles. I'm also saying that "power transfer" in this context is a red herring.


I have yet to ride a flat pedal shoe that is too stiff, and trust me, I've tried to find one, which is why I had a cobbler add a vibram sold to a cleated shoe; it was okay for muni, but stiff for MTB.

So yeah, a "minomer" or misunderstanding on the part of the industry because they fail to understand how flats are being used and the needs of the average rider. With the majority of folks riding flats and the majority of flat shoes being rather soft, there is certainly some sort of disconnect.

... and power transfer is not a "red herring", just like pushing off from the ground when walking/hiking/running, transferring energy is what we do when we pedal. The only difference between riding a flat sole and riding a cleated sole is the ability to pull up.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> I have been riding flats for a long while, got away from cleats when I rode muni, stayed with flats on bikes, biggest issues is finding a flat sole shoe that has enough mid foot support. I even went so far as to have a cobbler put a hiking sole on a cleated riding shoe.
> 
> There lots of shoes out there for flats, but many are skate inspired so they tend to wrap around the pedal, which puts a lot of pressure on the arch. There are a few that are more like slippers (Shimano), which are less skate inspired and definitely not stiff in the mid sole.
> 
> ...


I wonder what the difference is between the Livewire and the Hellions? They do have the Livewires listed in their XC / trail catagory.


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## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

keen said:


> I wonder what the difference is between the Livewire and the Hellions? They do have the Livewires listed in their XC / trail catagory.


I asked them that not too long ago. The Livewire has a softer more flexible sole than the Hellion. The Hellions are a pretty stiff shoe. More so than Freerider Pros. I am debating between the Livewire and the Powerline as my next shoe. They said the Powerline would be less stiff than Hellion as well. Leaning towards the Powerline due the stickier compound but I am not sure I like the taller midcut design.


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## Notbn (Aug 4, 2018)

From what I understand the Hellions are stiffer and a bit more protective than the livewire.

For what it's worth I have the Hellions and they are a great shoe, although it is my first pair of proper flat pedal shoes, so I don't really have much to compare to other than vans.


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## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

Notbn said:


> From what I understand the Hellions are stiffer and a bit more protective than the livewire.
> 
> For what it's worth I have the Hellions and they are a great shoe, although it is my first pair of proper flat pedal shoes, so I don't really have much to compare to other than vans.


The Hellions have awesome toe and heel protection. I would say the grip is right there with my Freerider Pros and the Hellions definitely have better protection.


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## 2wheelrevolution (Nov 1, 2006)

The upper of the Hellion is a two panel, versus four on the livewire. This makes the Hellion lighter and a bit stiffer. It's also more water resistant. Both shoes have the same midsole and outsole. The Powerline is the softer of the three, and has the softer rubber. The midcut is not noticeable when you pedal.


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## 2wheelrevolution (Nov 1, 2006)

The Hellion uses a two-panel upper, versus four panel on the Livewire. This makes the Hellion a bit lighter and more weather resistant. The two panel upper adds some stiffness to the shoe as well.


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## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

2wheelrevolution said:


> The upper of the Hellion is a two panel, versus four on the livewire. This makes the Hellion lighter and a bit stiffer. It's also more water resistant. Both shoes have the same midsole and outsole. The Powerline is the softer of the three, and has the softer rubber. The midcut is not noticeable when you pedal.


Good info. Thanks.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

rynomx785 said:


> The Hellions have awesome toe and heel protection. I would say the grip is right there with my Freerider Pros and the Hellions definitely have better protection.


Couldn't agree more, I'd get another set without a second thought.

They even look good ?


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

+1 RC Helion. I spend the majority of my time clipped in but have been very happy with the RC shoes. Even comfortable enough for daily wear.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Best pedaling flat shoes I've tried in order of best to worst: 

1. 2fo first generation (haven't tried the 2.0) 
2. Ion Raid Amp 2
3. NorthWave clan 
4. Freerider pro 
5. Impact 2 (haven't tried impact pro) 

Out of this list my favorite shoe is the Ion. Great balance of rigidity and pedal feel, grip is the second best to 5.10. Fit really helps with feel and power too and the Ion's have the best heel cup and overall snug fit out of this list. The 2fo pedaled very well, best I've tried, nice snug fit, but the rubber is a joke. Northwave offers traction similar to Ion which is to say not 5.10 level but about as sticky as other brands come. Freerider pros pedal great for the first few rides then they become too floppy for my taste. Of course grip is as good as it gets. I would like to try something from RC, but my next purchase will be Ion's new shoe with updated stickier rubber. 

I used to say we want a lot of flex in our flat shoes for feel, but now I put rigidity at the top of my priorities. I need all the help I can get these days. I still have my freerider pros. When I ride them after my ion's I work a little harder even when I'm just spinning.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

+2 Hellion, use mine for trail building, if it was a high top it'd be a boot ... stiff enough for a man but made for flat pedals ?



*OneSpeed* said:


> +1 RC Helion. I spend the majority of my time clipped in but have been very happy with the RC shoes. Even comfortable enough for daily wear.


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