# Integrated CarbonLORD cranks



## Kitakeng (Oct 29, 2006)

http://www.carbonlord.com/Cranks/index.html

Look very much like famous Clavis and claimed 730g with alu rings.

Any comment on actual weight and use?

Pity they come in 110 BCD only... and why 110 now (and not 104 or 94:skep:


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Limited mould/extrusion sizes for the aluminium backbone the carbon is wrapped around most likely. Notice all three only come in 170, 172.5 and 175mm lengths. You'd think they'd offer 180s for us tall mtb folks. Its a sign of the manufacturer skimping on the tooling (this way they only have to design for two bolt patterns and can order the chainrings all from the same manufacturer and even the mtb crank is using road rings. Notice in one picture of the mtb it has 10/9 speed etched into the outer chainring. The "mtb" crank is actually a road-triple crank, and that's another reason why the only BB shell size is 68mm.

With anything CarbonLORD sells, you have to look closer at the details to figure out what he's not telling you. But then this is a guy who was a real trendsetter in the combination lingerie / bicycle parts business on ebay.


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## Kitakeng (Oct 29, 2006)

DeeEight said:


> Limited mould/extrusion sizes for the aluminium backbone the carbon is wrapped around most likely. Notice all three only come in 170, 172.5 and 175mm lengths. You'd think they'd offer 180s for us tall mtb folks. Its a sign of the manufacturer skimping on the tooling (this way they only have to design for two bolt patterns and can order the chainrings all from the same manufacturer and even the mtb crank is using road rings. Notice in one picture of the mtb it has 10/9 speed etched into the outer chainring. The "mtb" crank is actually a road-triple crank, and that's another reason why the only BB shell size is 68mm.
> 
> With anything CarbonLORD sells, you have to look closer at the details to figure out what he's not telling you. But then this is a guy who was a real trendsetter in the combination lingerie / bicycle parts business on ebay.


TKS D8!

I might as well give a try, just to see the actual weight on those!!

Another problem is that there are not so many rings available in 110mm that are for MTB and are light.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

If you forgo steel pins, then actually Vuelta rings are pretty light.


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## elephant (Mar 21, 2006)

Specialites TA makes very nice 74/110 rings.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

Kitakeng said:


> http://www.carbonlord.com/Cranks/index.html
> 
> Look very much like famous Clavis and claimed 730g with alu rings.
> 
> ...


VERY BAD: that is more then the weight of my square taper TNT / RACE FACE / Sugino rings. Cansomebody please produce a light crankset? Thank you!!! :madman: There has be no progress for 10 years plus!!!!


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

Nop, nobody wants to make money doing a correct integrated crank around 700g

you can only choose between hiperlight hiperexpensive ones, or the rest around 800g and similar price.

I can't understand it...


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## Some Guy (Mar 27, 2005)

Raceface carbon: 750gr. FSA carbon: 750gr. Shimano XTR: 780gr. That's three big name options below 800gr.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

KCNC K-Type Scandium. Around 740 with heavy(ish) rings. I just picked this CS up for the new Pedal Force frameset and I'm so far pleased with it. The bearings spin very nice without much drag.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Davide said:


> VERY BAD: that is more then the weight of my square taper TNT / RACE FACE / Sugino rings. Cansomebody please produce a light crankset? Thank you!!! :madman: There has be no progress for 10 years plus!!!!


Yes but that setup would have been nowhere near the same stiffness.


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## dmcgoy (Apr 16, 2006)

DeeEight said:


> Yes but that setup would have been nowhere near the same stiffness.


Can anyone vouch for being able to "feel" the difference in stiffness? I know it can be measured, but I've seen lots of people here claiming to not really noticing the difference between, say, a square taper setup and the new integrated setups.


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## carbonLORD (Jun 9, 2007)

*D8 youre still as sad a character as you were when I met you 10 years ago.*

I see youre still the same old guy youve always been "Upie".

Did you think I dissapeared off the forums?

What did I say to you 8 years ago when you ran off at the mouth (keyboard) last time?

Nothings changed. Grow up already, really.

You do not know me, never have, and do not represent anything carbonLORD related.

Stay in Canada like you always do, and hide.

Yer pal...

Sabin the "carbonLORD"



DeeEight said:


> Limited mould/extrusion sizes for the aluminium backbone the carbon is wrapped around most likely. Notice all three only come in 170, 172.5 and 175mm lengths. You'd think they'd offer 180s for us tall mtb folks. Its a sign of the manufacturer skimping on the tooling (this way they only have to design for two bolt patterns and can order the chainrings all from the same manufacturer and even the mtb crank is using road rings. Notice in one picture of the mtb it has 10/9 speed etched into the outer chainring. The "mtb" crank is actually a road-triple crank, and that's another reason why the only BB shell size is 68mm.
> 
> With anything CarbonLORD sells, you have to look closer at the details to figure out what he's not telling you. But then this is a guy who was a real trendsetter in the combination lingerie / bicycle parts business on ebay.


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## carbonLORD (Jun 9, 2007)

To set the record straight....

I do offer a 73 mm Shell now, but am finally finishing the carbonLORD logo products as unlike our buddy D8, my company is actually growing (and not in my mom's basement like D8's has been since 1998).

All trash talking aside, (since thats all D8 and I have done for a decade now).....

Anyone is more then welcome to contact me, thats why my direct address and telephone number are on my web site. Ive been offering carbon parts waaaay long enough now to tell the naysayers the same thing I always have..... None of you are my customers and none of you commenting own or ride the products I offer so quit pretending to be an instant expert.

I'm 6'4" tall.... You think I wouldnt like a 180 mm crank too? They just don't manufacture them, and not because they are cheap (you try running a multi million dollar composite corporation for 15 years like these gentleman do), its because it is a multimillion dollar business that not everything can be produced, at least as far as my understanding and believe me, I asked. Not only do I want a 180 mm crank, if you do too..... thats means I am loosing money..... Yeah, like I want to loose a sale and be limited on what I can offer you?

So back to "reality".... I have been in business for 10 years because I offer a good product and a good price.

No one forces any of you to buy what I sell, you have many many options, so rather then me pop my head into D8's banter every time he's feeling inadequate, call me, my numbers been the same for 15 years, and guess what, I'm the sole proprietor of carbonLORD so you'll never hear it from some guy on a forum who's never used my stuff.

Cheers.

Sabin West "carbonLORD"


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> Yes but that setup would have been nowhere near the same stiffness.


And with a decent square taper bottom bracket would you be able to tell the difference in stiffness? Not really.

Plus how many bearings have you replaced since switching to ISIS or external cups? I'm certain that the majority of people will answer several sets.

I'm still running my original old school square taper without any drag in the bearings or having to keep up with maintenance. Yep think the cycling industry did us all a disservice in making square taper obsolete.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

carbonLORD said:


> I see youre still the same old guy youve always been "Upie".


Considering you've never actually met me... you'd think you'd be smart enough not to start your post off with a lie.



> Did you think I dissapeared off the forums?


Do you think I cared one way or the other? You're like the mud I scrape off the cleats of my shoes. An annoyance at best.



> What did I say to you 8 years ago when you ran off at the mouth (keyboard) last time?


Don't remember, I don't pay much attention to perverts or morons.



> Stay in Canada like you always do, and hide.


Hide? LAUGH... boy you think a little highly of yourself there. But then you're an expert at hiding behind your keyboard. And also of not taking criticism well for your parts and sales (others can dejanews search him on the rec.bicycles.marketplace newsgroup, there have been many complaints about him). You're like the beyondbikes of the usenet newsgroups.

But for people too lazy...

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EF696DA.php

http://www.cyclingforums.com/archive/index.php/t-133310.html

http://archive.mtbr.com/16/0EF1BCB8.php

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=carbonlord&qt_s=Search+Groups

http://groups.google.com/group/rec....9b9347d1?lnk=st&q=carbonlord#aaaca1859b9347d1

That one in particular amuses me as it reminded me of how you'd always threaten people who complained. Go on. Do it again to me. I dare you. Or just get in your car and drive up here and try doing it to my face. See how you enjoy a future of soft food.

Incidently, I like how you avoided coming up with an excuse for why your cranks use the 74/110 bolt pattern for the mtb model when hardly anyone else uses that pattern anymore except for road compact cranks.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

crux said:


> And with a decent square taper bottom bracket would you be able to tell the difference in stiffness? Not really.


Well depends what you call decent. The TNT BB he used to get a lighter weight has a 17mm diameter titanium spindle (just like most every other Ti BB). So none are going to be any stiffer than another of the same spindle length. To go stiffer you'd need to switch to a stiffer material, like steel. But then the weight goes up.

Plus how many bearings have you replaced since switching to ISIS or external cups? I'm certain that the majority of people will answer several sets.



> I'm still running my original old school square taper without any drag in the bearings or having to keep up with maintenance. Yep think the cycling industry did us all a disservice in making square taper obsolete.


They didn't though, you can still get square-taper MTB cranks from shimano up to the deore level (which are hollowtech forged and actually reasonably light). Want to know the weight for a set of deore square tapers with TI ring bolts, Blackspire Al 22T/ RPM 32T (ramped & pinned) rings and a raceface bashguard (at 112g) ? 641 grams without crank bolts for a 170mm length. A Kooka 44T ring I have which is ramped/pinned also is 87g setup triple it'd be 616g. Adding one of my Ti square-taper BBs and Ti crank bolts as I'll be doing when I use them on a build soon and that's another 170g to the package.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> Yes but that setup would have been nowhere near the same stiffness.


sure ... but what do I care: I am 150 pounds :blush: I want a 600 grams crankset now!!!! :nonod:

oh .. it just appeared below :eekster:


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

I saw this questioned above so I thought I'd add my 2p / 2c 
mtb since 1985 & aside from a short dabble with M950XTR cranks I've always used square taper. recently i've tried M970XTR & yes you can definately feel the increased stiffness. espically when out of the saddle in a big gear. this could partly be due to the chainrings which are pretty thick/ stiff.
I wont enter the argument wether stiff cranks are any better or worse, just that in my experience M970XTR is noticeably stiffer than previous used cook bros, topline,grafton, various sugino, lots of various shimano, raceface turbine etc etc


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

NATEC?

Storck Power Arm Pros? Circa 310 grams. It amazes me how long these cranks have been out and still they seem to set the bar. Get jis version.

It just stinks how it is hard to impossible to do 2x9 with these (not sure about NATEC).

I don't think the Carbon Lord cranks are anything like THM-claviculas which are considerably lighter. They come in with rings around 575 grams. They ARE strong but no 29 gear for 2x9 is allowed.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Davide said:


> sure ... but what do I care: I am 150 pounds :blush: I want a 600 grams crankset now!!!! :nonod:
> 
> oh .. it just appeared below :eekster:


Vaporware! Has been for years now..


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

Damm what has it been like 2 years since a good carbonLord - DeeEight/others internets argument??

(Cracks open a beer and enjoys the show.)


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## wreckedrex (May 2, 2007)

crux said:


> And with a decent square taper bottom bracket would you be able to tell the difference in stiffness? Not really.
> 
> Plus how many bearings have you replaced since switching to ISIS or external cups? I'm certain that the majority of people will answer several sets.
> 
> I'm still running my original old school square taper without any drag in the bearings or having to keep up with maintenance. Yep think the cycling industry did us all a disservice in making square taper obsolete.


I can feel a tremendous difference between my square taper LX cranks (XT bb) and my LX external BB set. My Cook Bros are a little better than the old LX parts, but still perceptibly softer than the newer ones. To be fair these parts are on a SS rig which seem to me aught to really exaggerate any flex issues. Also, if you're a 150lb fly weight you're not going to see it like a 230lb clyde.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

bhsavery said:


> Damm what has it been like 2 years since a good carbonLord - DeeEight/others internets argument??
> 
> (Cracks open a beer and enjoys the show.)


Actually 4 or 5 according to google. Back when mtbr still had the good trader / bad trader forum as part of the classifieds section.


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## carbonLORD (Jun 9, 2007)

DeeEight said:


> Bla bla bla.


All this from a guy who sells Fart guns...

Need I say more?

cL


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## zburt (Jun 9, 2007)

Well I have never had the pleasure to ride the Carbon Lord cranks, I did purchase a pair! But, they are on back order, and not like most companies he immediately emailed me and refunded my money and then took it one step further to apologize for the inconvenience and offer me a discount when they became available! Have to say that alone was stand up! I can name several companies that kept my money for months and never got the part in stock.

On another note! In the meantime I purchased the Kcnc 2x9 mtb crankset and it came in at 682grams w/bb and all hardware at a good price!


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

carbonLORD said:


> All this from a guy who sells Fart guns...
> 
> Need I say more?
> 
> cL


Sales must really be off if you had to revive a 14 month old thread to get people to remember who you are, and again, by lying to people to do it.


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## carbonLORD (Jun 9, 2007)

DeeEight said:


> Sales must really be off if you had to revive a 14 month old thread to get people to remember who you are, and again, by lying to people to do it.


LOL, you question my sales.... whatever Dee, I'm not even going to go there. Clearly business is fine for me. Ive been in business over a decade now, web site, sponsorships and international distributorship..... Again though, I should explain myself to a guy who has nothing better going on then to spam us with his fart cannon patents, on a bicycle forum. How's that working out for you boss?

You seem to forget, I do have a full time career for the last 11 years. My involvement with cycling has always been my "side" business, my "passion" and my "hobby" but unlike you, I won't advertise my full time career, on a cycling forum.

You ever think maybe I'm too busy to post here daily like you do?

No, thats right, you don't "think".... or rather in your strange world you think everyone are morons, etc etc.

I didn't post here to remind you of anything, other then the fact you clearly have interpersonal issues, but again, it doesn't even take a half wit to see that.

I'm sorry you failed at selling bike parts years ago, but please do continue entertain us with your insessive drivel and fascinate us with your inspiring patents, genius.

Keep on digging that hole, it doesn't really matter, again, no one here listens to you anyway and like 10 years ago, we still point a finger at you and laugh.

Just remember that I do still stop by to say hi once and a while, and every time I do, I'm amazed that the only person who has anything negative to say is the same person who has never done business with me.

Whats next, a burp grenade patent? LOL, get a life, loser.


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## Megaclocker (Sep 28, 2005)

Sweet nice *cough*carbon*cough* covered skinny aluminium crank.

Get an XTR or KCNC for the same price. D8 is right.

P.S.: CarbonLORD I will never ever think about buying from you just because of your attitude here.

I also like how ZBURT joined the same date has CarbonLORD


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## carbonLORD (Jun 9, 2007)

Megaclocker said:


> Sweet nice *cough*carbon*cough* covered skinny aluminium crank.
> 
> Get an XTR or KCNC for the same price. D8 is right.
> 
> ...


My attitude towards a jerk who's done nothing but bother me for a decade? O K ...

I don't know who ZBURT is, nor do I really care if you believe me or not. I've been a member of MTBR for several years before NexTag acquired it and had to re-register so get your facts straight.

Feel free to saw a crank in half and see exactly what it is.

I have a hard time believing you are anything more then Dee Eight using his mothers computer, really.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

carbonLORD said:


> LOL, you question my sales.... whatever Dee, I'm not even going to go there. Clearly business is fine for me. Ive been in business over a decade now, web site, sponsorships and international distributorship..... Again though, I should explain myself to a guy who has nothing better going on then to spam us with his fart cannon patents, on a bicycle forum. How's that working out for you boss?


Ummm....if you had a brain... you'd realize that #1 its not my patent, #2 I'm not selling any such device, and #3 its intented to point out the absurdity of thinking at the US Patent Office.



> You seem to forget, I do have a full time career for the last 11 years. My involvement with cycling has always been my "side" business, my "passion" and my "hobby" but unlike you, I won't advertise my full time career, on a cycling forum.


Which is what? Selling rhinestone covered lingerie on ebay while pretending to be in the bicycle industry while miraculously putting in an appearance on mtbr or the newsgroups every few months to flog your wares, or revive interest in products few cared about even when they were new?!



> You ever think maybe I'm too busy to post here daily like you do?


They revoked your internet priviledges at the federal pen last year and its taken you this long to get them back ? And to show them how good you've been and how much you changed, you start by posting in a thread from feb 2008. Either you had it bookmarked or you looked yourself up in the search engine.



> I'm sorry you failed at selling bike parts years ago, but please do continue entertain us with your insessive drivel and fascinate us with your inspiring patents, genius.


Haven't failed... moved onto selling to real people in the real world out of real stores.



> Just remember that I do still stop by to say hi once and a while, and every time I do, I'm amazed that the only person who has anything negative to say is the same person who has never done business with me.


Well go cry about it why don't you... i'm sure there's someone on here who loves you. Maybe they'll post about that love, and they won't coincidently have the same join date for their account as you. As to not doing business with you, that's right... I don't deal with crooks. I'd sooner buy something from nino... at least he doesn't threaten his past customers.



> Whats next, a burp grenade patent? LOL, get a life, loser.


Coming from a half wit like yourself, that's hardly an insult.


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## carbonLORD (Jun 9, 2007)

Dee, I didnt read it and I really don't care.

Get a life, really.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

carbonLORD said:


> My attitude towards a jerk who's done nothing but bother me for a decade? O K ...


Never once stopping to consider that it might be your own attitude which has bothered people for the past decade, and that there are those on the 'net whose memory (and google-fu) might be combined to remind the rest of the universe as to why you're an ass muncher.



> I don't know who ZBURT is, nor do I really care if you believe me or not. I've been a member of MTBR for several years before NexTag acquired it and had to re-register so get your facts straight.


Sure sure.... likely story. I've been an mtbr since 1997 if we want to talk years. The only years you've put in anywhere has been in prison most likely. It would account for your frequent absences and reappearances.

So... for the rest of you new to the thrill of reading about this crook and his frauds (which is likely why he's been gone away a year or so... someone finally got him prosecuted for it)... go over to groups.google.com, and put in the name "sabin west" and see what the top results are.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Megaclocker said:


> I also like how ZBURT joined the same date has CarbonLORD


Wouldn't be the first time he's used other names... he's previously impersonated people to slander them on the usenet forums. If mtbr hadn't gone to a registered username system this guy would be posting as every name possible to make himself look good and the actual users who use those names regularly look like idiots. He of course being an idiot never thought about the IP#s or header info that would get attached to posts.


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## carbonLORD (Jun 9, 2007)

Yes yes Dee, bla bla bla.

Keep on with your 7,000+ posts. You're just too cool for us all.

I have a hard time believing you sell anything from that dated KMR page with the same old pics since 1997.

The only banter you're likely to find is between you and me.

You don't even have a telephone number listed, and yet, I have had the same number, on my web site for the past 11 years.

Who exactly am I lying to and hiding from?

I stopped posting here when NexTag ruined the format, and you know that.

Ive been on eBay "carbonLORD" non-stop for over a decade and still have a 100% flawless feedback rating.

I even accept credit cards directly and do not use a 3rd party like PayPal because a bank approved me.... Imagine that?

So please, keep posting, stalking, ranting or whatever it is you seem to enjoy doing.

You want my advice, get a decent web site, go update it, something.

I mean, my products have a brand, they say carbonLORD on them. I sponsor a variety of cyclists on my own nickel and I have distributors and trade marks for my name, and logo?

I don't see any Dee Eight parts and aside of some 7,000 ranting posts, what do you do for the cycling industry other then promote negative comments?

I mean really, what exactly do you contribute?

You talk this tough Mr. know it all game but you are a skinny old man with limited experience, no brand of his own and a web site without anything but broken links and 10 year old images. I'd have thought you would be wiser then that.


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## carbonLORD (Jun 9, 2007)

DeeEight said:


> Wouldn't be the first time he's used other names... he's previously impersonated people to slander them on the usenet forums. If mtbr hadn't gone to a registered username system this guy would be posting as every name possible to make himself look good and the actual users who use those names regularly look like idiots. He of course being an idiot never thought about the IP#s or header info that would get attached to posts.


Then show us oh wise one. Oh thats right you can't because you make things up.

I feel like I'm debating with a bipolar retard.

You going to reference Usenet again? I mean, last time I posted there was like 2003. It had maybe a max of 50 members, and I'm being generous by those figures.

Clearly its still doing so well which is why you find the time for 7,000 posts on here.

You are nothing more then a story teller with inaccurate facts and nothing going on.

How about you fix your web site, incorporate some shopping cart functionality and get a telephone number (somewhere other then your mothers basement) rather then sit here and post another 7,000 stories about a man youve never met and have never done business with.

I think that would be a better use of your time.

You can keep on hiding behind mommies computer in Canada and rant away for all I care, but I'm not going to just sit silent and let you continually make up stories.

I saw you were on Facebook with a )go figure) hidden profile as well. Mines public, why dont you go look at some images f me before you bad mouth me further. I bet you might think twice after you do.

Cheers loser and by all means, please continue with the profane language. It just speaks volumes for your worth there Mr. businessman.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

carbonLORD said:


> Yes yes Dee, bla bla bla.
> 
> Keep on with your 7,000+ posts. You're just too cool for us all.
> 
> I have a hard time believing you sell anything from that dated KMR page with the same old pics since 1997.


Again with the failure to comprehend basic information... I don't use that page to sell anymore... I said I moved on to dealing with REAL customers in the REAL world. Not the make believe world you seem to still be living in. In interact with real customers, in person... I don't therefore get to just insult them like you used to do, or threaten them, or impersonate them, in ways which were permantly archived for anyone to find.



> You don't even have a telephone number listed, and yet, I have had the same number, on my web site for the past 11 years.


And why would I need to since I don't bother with internet part sales anymore. My webpage... last time I updated the part sales section...december 2003 was the date on the main page, but I seem to recall I actually deleted the page the link pointed to sometime in 2007 after I got tired of emails from people asking about stuff I had long since sold.



> I stopped posting here when NexTag ruined the format, and you know that.


Why would I (or anyone) know or even care about that? NexTag didn't ruin the format at all... oh wait...you mean ruined by getting moderators who'd delete your posts, lock your account and ban you from the site perhaps if you'd kept posting the way you used to back when the classifieds had a seperate GT/BT forum?!



> Ive been on eBay "carbonLORD" non-stop for over a decade and still have a 100% flawless feedback rating.


Ah yes, was waiting for that... I just checked as it happens for a laugh, 939 total feedback, not bad... not great either but I guess you can't drive away customers on ebay as well as you could here or on the NGs every time you opened your yap.



> I even accept credit cards directly and do not use a 3rd party like PayPal because a bank approved me.... Imagine that?


You want a medal? I bet that's why its only 939 though... very few ebay users trust people who refuse to use paypal. The lack of reliable buyer protection and all.



> So please, keep posting, stalking, ranting or whatever it is you seem to enjoy doing.


Says the guy who revived a thread after 14 months that didn't need reviving, for any reason other than you hadn't behaved like a ranting stalker in awhile.

And now I'm done with you. Just as it seems everyone else is.


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## noshortcuts (Nov 29, 2005)

If ever a thread needed to go to "The Recycle Bin" - this one is over due.


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## carbonLORD (Jun 9, 2007)

Youre truly a great "story teller" Dee. If your day dream job of dealing with all those customers in the middle of nowhere ever ends, you can start writing children's fiction books at least.

Google pulls up nothing on you or your business.

PayPal is for individuals. Real businesses have a merchant account which takes having a great credit score and credentials. I mean, when you buy groceries at the store, do you pay them with PayPal?

Again, I see no De Eight brand, products or.... am I missing something here, do you sponsor anyone? Really, well, like everything else Ive asked you to prove, show me.

You are you, and I am me. You know I cant take garbage from someone like you.

We will keep this up forever and while I'm sure its fun for the old school crew, these new people probably think we're both crazy.

You can lie to yourself all you like, but I remember the days of a chat page on MTBR that was Java based, and I remember the good old days of Chris Fox and Co. practically putting you in tears on a daily basis.

I cant talk too bad about your 7,000 posts, I mean good for you. I actually have 40,970 posts on AudiWorld since I moved on to more then just bike chatter. I told you I was a busy guy.

So keep up the great work and maybe when you manage to get out of moms basement in the middle of nowhere I can help you with a little SEO so you can at least have a web presence aside of forum discussion.

I mean, if you are not interested in internet sales you aren't ever going to make it out on your own, really.

Good luck, LORD knows you need it.


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## carbonLORD (Jun 9, 2007)

noshortcuts said:


> If ever a thread needed to go to "The Recycle Bin" - this one is over due.


LOL, cheers! :thumbsup:


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## ash240 (Jun 2, 2007)

why buy from someone who at BEST has "issues" and is suspect?

Even if we ignored all the many bad posts about him his own words expose multiple reasons it would be quite stupid to give him money.

Thanks to the poster who made the effort to expose the guy again and what he is like. This sort of thing protects those who don't search deep enough. Lots of really honest people we could deal with.


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