# Knees problems and clipless pedals



## Timeless (Mar 23, 2007)

I been riding Shaminos M520 pedals for a while. My knees now are starting hurt a little after I ride and I know that I do not have the best of knees.

I have been told that if I had a pedal with more float it would help the problem. I am wanting to know what would be some good pedals I should consider to replace my trusted m520s with.
I do not want speed frogs because in the area I ride we have a lot of things that will just get jammed in the cleats. 
What would be some good pedals to conisider. I have though about Time ATAC Alium. I want something that will not brake the bank.

Now do not get me wrong I think the m520s are great pedals and still recommend them to people I just want something that will be a little easier on my knees. They have server me well over the years (either as m520s or I think m505 what ever I used before them)


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## zahgurim (Aug 12, 2005)

Try out some CrankBros pedals. They allow for more float than the Shimanos.


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## jdr999 (Jun 4, 2007)

Have you also considered flexibility?

When you walk do you always keep your feet perfectly parallel to each other or do you point one or both feet out? Do you always stand with your feet parallel? Do you stretch before riding?

I mention this because flexibility is definitely one of my problems -- my right foot always likes to point out. I tend to sleep on my back and my right foot just flops over to the side. After a while that position become natural and trying to snap them into pedals that are parallel can put undo stress on your joints.


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## ThatOldDude (Jul 2, 2007)

Have you tried adjusting your saddle fore/aft? I was feeling a little knee pain after switching to my 520's and adjusted the saddle a little farther back so the bend in the knee wasn't so sharp. It doens't take much moving back....maybe 10-15mm or so. Also look at your cleat placement on the shoe.


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## Timeless (Mar 23, 2007)

well I will say for cleat placement I have it right under the balls of my foot like it should be.
I will try moving the saddle back some.

My biggest problem is I do have weak knees and I will say it sucks already starting to feel some minor dull pain in them only be 24 years old. My left knee been acting up for years now and will go in to times that it just hurts. It is also the left knee where most of the pain general will come up after a ride. I will have to try moving my saddle back.

Other question is would an improve float really help out quite a bit?


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## ferday (Jan 15, 2004)

> well I will say for cleat placement I have it right under the balls of my foot like it should be.


says who? i run the clips as far back as they go and much prefer it from both a power and pain standpoint.

i have horrible knees (half dozen surgeries) and i *prefer* shitmano pedals. too much float, and my knees tend to misalign, but with the shitmanos it forces them into a better position. YMMV, and try a bunch of stuff for sure. try running your seat slightly higher/back, cleats back, etc. before you try new pedals IMO.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

according to the latest bike fit physiology the "optimal" cleat placement is not directly under the ball of the foot.

if you were to draw a line across your foot at the knuckle of your big toe and your pinky toe, the line that divides these two would be the axis of proper placement.

also make sure that the cleat positioning on the shoe is not forcing the foot to twist into an un-natural position.

you also need to check to ensure your leg is not over or under extending as both can cause knee pain.

also check both bar height and position. too low a bar and knee pain can result, just as too long of a reach to the bar (too long of a stem) can result in knee and lower back pain.

and lastly check your saddles position fore/aft. with your pedals parallel to the ground your leading knee should be directly above the pedal shaft. its much easier to check this with the assistance of a buddy and a plumb bob.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Are your cleats aligned to the most comfortable position?

If you have arbitrarily set your feet parallel, it might be putting stress on your knees if they don't like that angle.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Timeless said:


> I do not want speed frogs because in the area I ride we have a lot of things that will just get jammed in the cleats.


Do you know this for a fact? I have run frogs all over the country and I never have problems with things getting jammed in the cleats.


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## Timeless (Mar 23, 2007)

kapusta said:


> Do you know this for a fact? I have run frogs all over the country and I never have problems with things getting jammed in the cleats.


yeah it coming from people who run them in the area and switch off of them. They loved the pedals just the trails where I just seem to pick up a lot of little things that get jammed in the cleat.

there are a fair number of hills most riders me includes that require walking up the hill.


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## hooker_47 (Apr 12, 2007)

monogod said:


> according to the latest bike fit physiology the "optimal" cleat placement is not directly under the ball of the foot.
> 
> if you were to draw a line across your foot at the knuckle of your big toe and your pinky toe, the line that divides these two would be the axis of proper placement.


I just read this from another source. It makes sense to me, as just forward of the balls of my feet seems to be a much stronger part of my foot, and gives more leverage when pedaling. Also, if you constantly put pressure on the balls of your feet, I would think that you would upset the nerves in your foot, causing numbness or pain.


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## Timeless (Mar 23, 2007)

for me when I set the cleat (I have to double check on the balls of my foot but I think that is wehre I set it) it was dead center on where my foot will set on flats.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*No one will like this but here goes.*

The brand of pedals has nothing to do with it.
The height and fore-aft position might have something to do with it but that is pretty easy to adust; knee over pedal, small bend in your leg when foot all the way down.
Cleat position is pretty easy but if you put your cleat where the poster below suggested (knuckle big toe/little toe) your upper calf behind the knee will just kill you. Guaranteed.

Okay. Ready?

You are pressing the pedals too hard.

Pause.

Pause.

You are pressing the pedals too often.

Pause.

Pause.

In short your knees aren't ready for the effort you are putting them through.

Stop your riding. Reduce your riding. Push an easier gear more often and work on your spin. Let your knee adapt to the motion and the muscles around it develope to support the joint.

I told you no one would like this. That is largely because it goes against what a cyclist wants to do; move foreward more often. All the postioning adjustments suggested above are an attempt to make that happen.

What I don't see happening is that you are recognizng that you have now hurt your knees and are resting to let them heal. You aren't taking care of yourself.

It is SO hard to stop people who want to move.:madman:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Cleat position is pretty easy but if you put your cleat where the poster below suggested (knuckle big toe/little toe) your upper calf behind the knee will just kill you. Guaranteed.


sorry.... not trying to be rude but that is just simply wrong.

although i am pursuing degrees in sports physiology and kinesiology this is not an idea of my design, but instead is the result of years and millions of $$$ spent studying cycling physiology. we have two master fitters at our shop trained by specialized at their fit school who return to the specialized fit school yearly to stay on the bleeding edge of this topic (proper bike fit) and all of us have been trained to fit (from basic to 3-d) by them.

so perhaps you misunderstood, or i didnt elucidate clearly, where the cleat goes so i will explain with more clarity.

looking down at your right foot, draw a line from left to right across the top of the foot with the line centered at the knuckle of the big toe.

then draw a line from right to left across the top of your foot with the line centered at the knuckle of the pinky toe.

now draw a parallel line directly in the center of these two and this is the axis of proper cleat placement. the medial/lateral cleat placement along this line depends on foot width and shape, but the best general starting area (since i cant see your foot) is to start with the cleat in the middle of the shoe.

repeat on the left foot from right to left on big toe knuckle and left to right from pinky knuckle.

which reminds me....

to the OP: in addition to the other points suggested you may also want to give the specialized BG shoes a try. the varus wedge in the BG shoes align the foot slightly outward thus aligning the the knee properly and reducing knee pain. after trying a pair years ago they are all i ever ride on the road or the dirt.

cycling is a very low impact sport and is an excellent sport for people with bad knees. if youre having knee pain the etiology is most likely kinesiological in nature and can be resolved with proper equipment and bike fitting.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

also, where and what type of pain is it?

is it a radiating pain with genesis from inside the knee?

is the pain lateral or medial of the knee joint?

have you tried stretching the i.t. (iliotibial) bands?

i.t. band friction and/or spasm are common forms of knee pain and are misdiagnosed with alarming regularity resulting in thousand upon thousands of needless surgeries every year.


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## Timeless (Mar 23, 2007)

best way to describe the knee pain is when it acts up is a sharp pain on my left knee on the lower left side. Sharp enough it hurts moving the knee. That happens every few months for a day or 2.
Dull pain will just be general in the knee it self and I been noticing it coming up more and more lately. It is enough to keep me from running much. 
Never really had pain from side to actions so stressing the knee laterally with quick movements has never really bothers it.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Timeless said:


> best way to describe the knee pain is when it acts up is a sharp pain on my left knee on the lower left side. Sharp enough it hurts moving the knee. That happens every few months for a day or 2.
> Dull pain will just be general in the knee it self and I been noticing it coming up more and more lately. It is enough to keep me from running much.
> Never really had pain from side to actions so stressing the knee laterally with quick movements has never really bothers it.


sounds like i.t. band.

some info here and here with a stretch for the i.t. band.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I don't care where you get your Information*



monogod said:


> sorry.... not trying to be rude but that is just simply wrong.
> 
> although i am pursuing degrees in sports physiology and kinesiology this is not an idea of my design, but instead is the result of years and millions of $$$ spent studying cycling physiology. we have two master fitters at our shop trained by specialized at their fit school who return to the specialized fit school yearly to stay on the bleeding edge of this topic (proper bike fit) and all of us have been trained to fit (from basic to 3-d) by them.
> 
> ...


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## EricTheRed (Jan 12, 2004)

Timeless said:


> best way to describe the knee pain is when it acts up is a sharp pain on my left knee on the lower left side. Sharp enough it hurts moving the knee. That happens every few months for a day or 2.
> Dull pain will just be general in the knee it self and I been noticing it coming up more and more lately. It is enough to keep me from running much.
> Never really had pain from side to actions so stressing the knee laterally with quick movements has never really bothers it.


See a physical therapist(SP) especially one who is an avid biker. Advice on the internet is one thing, but a PT or DR, who can poke (or even run x-rays) you and really find out what is wrong will get you where you want to be.

I had knee pain from incorrect bike set up. Saw Andy Pruit (sp) and then have my bikes (road and mtn) set up the same geo wise. Got some Spec BG shoes and learned some good stretches and strength exersizes that help my knees feel better.

Good luck, but don't procrastinate, a couple of dollars for a co-pay is nothing when it comes to not f#$king yourself up and not riding.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I simply disagree. I don't care who you say you are or who trains you. I have to keep my 25 riders healthy through a 8 month season of 4 rides rides a week and I have seen this happen over and over with cleats too far foreward.


first of all, i see that you have once again failed to grasp the gist of this method of positioning the cleats since the cleats are REARWARD of what used to be considered optimal position. i.e. this actually moves them AFT on the foot rather than FORWARD. it places the cleat on the natural load bearing area of the forefoot.

please go get a sharpie and try it on your feet and youll see. :thumbsup:

(and no, we dont draw on people when we fit. the above suggestion is to help you visualize the concept and process)



> _I have come to suspect "fitters" of all kinds. I ride next to my rider and watch what they do and make adustments in real time. This could be a function of my relatively young and new riders as the musculature for cycling takes years to build and riding position changes over time. If you start a brand new rider in a pro position you will kill them or they will quit because it is untenable for most riders. Why is it no one seems to realize that? Maybe because all these pro fitters are working with fully developed athletes or riders who just don't come back and your whole result is seriously skewed. Our coaches end up having to undo "pro" fitting all the time. You "pros" have hardly cornered the market on dynamic fit.
> 
> The model from fully developed athletes is one of he main reasons mt bikes sat in the garage in the late 90"s; no one could sit in an attack position with a 150mm stem and a bar 4 inches below the seat and they gave up. The whole culture belittled the short, high stem look as fred-like. Look at the general designs these days which tend toward higher bars and smaller cockpits. More people are back on mountain bikes. That is reality.
> 
> So go ahead and draw your line, physio candidate dude who knows with a dead smarmy certainty that I am "just wrong", just don't do it with my athletes._


wow... i dunno who took a dump in your wheaties this morning but i certainly hope you have a better day tomorrow.

in response to the plethora of disinformation and wild unfounded assumptions about professional fitting in your post...

1. seems youve some confusion on what a pro fit means. it means having someone who is professionally trained in the art of bike fitting set up the bike to the rider. it does not mean setting up everyone in a pro rider position. it takes into account the riders ability, experience, flexibility, age, and weight (among other things) to tailor the bike to fit the rider.

2. a pro fit (and resultant adjustments) is done in real time with the rider on their bike, and is more of a science than just eyeballing someone while riding beside them.

3. "untenable" means indefensible or uninhabitable, not uncomfortable or unachievable.

4. the reality of why mountain bike cockpits have morphed into what they are today is due to the sciences of physiology and kinesiology, which happen to be the very same sciences which you vociferously eschew in regards to bike fitting.

5. in fact, both road bike and mountain cockpits have changed (along with rider positioning) over the years with the corresponding increase in knowledge resultant from application of these sciences in regard to cycling.

6. why is it that "no one seems to realize that?", you ask? i think it would be safe to say that in the course of spending years and untold millions of dollars on the sciences of physiology, kinesiology, and pathophysiology in regard to proper bike fitting the cycling industry has most likely contemplated your assertions and developed proper fitting techniques encompassing your concerns.

7. it is not a guarantee that positioning the cleat in the manner mentioned will cause pain in the calves. in fact, quite the opposite is true.

8. you dont have to be ugly about it, i certainly wasnt ugly to you in simply disagreeing with you.



> _Can you say "Fit Kit?"_


i can do more than just say it, i know how to properly use the ones we have at the shop. :thumbsup:

have a nice day!


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

*glad you got some relief...*



EricTheRed said:


> Saw Andy Pruit (sp) and then have my bikes (road and mtn) set up the same geo wise. Got some Spec BG shoes and learned some good stretches and strength exersizes that help my knees feel better.


wow! sounds like GREAT advice! :thumbsup:


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## Timeless (Mar 23, 2007)

monogod maybe you could clear up the eniter cleat thing by having a picture drawing of it showing kind of how it is done. might give everyone a better understanding of it.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Timeless said:


> monogod maybe you could clear up the eniter cleat thing by having a picture drawing of it showing kind of how it is done. might give everyone a better understanding of it.


sure thing. give me a bit...


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## EricTheRed (Jan 12, 2004)

The human body is too complex for people over the internet to diagnose what is wrong and how to fix it. Adding to that, I tried to find ways of "curing" myself using the internet, my pain symptoms and a very basic understanding of the human anatomy and, though I didn't do anything negative (except waste time), if I had gone to seek profesinal help I could have been fixing it faster, and had the correct bike setup, and therefore not compounding the issue.

BTW to the OP, I have time pedals on my bikes (good angle of float, and all that marketing), but still had knee pain.

I think both MONO and Berkeley are partially correct, but from my experience do the hardest thing and call a DR. I don't like going to the DR either but unforunatley we only have one body and it has to last our life time.


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## GringoBoB (Aug 31, 2007)

Gear down, spin more, lower your seat a little, take glucosamine, strengthen your quads, stretch your quads often (especially before riding), and take ibuprofin. 

My .02 cents.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

line A is the line from center of big toe knuckle.

line B is the line from center of pinky toe knuckle.

mount cleat along black line.


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## urbanfreerider (Aug 13, 2007)

I don't think that pedals matter that much, it is mostly the saddle hight...


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## Timeless (Mar 23, 2007)

EricTheRed said:


> The human body is too complex for people over the internet to diagnose what is wrong and how to fix it. Adding to that, I tried to find ways of "curing" myself using the internet, my pain symptoms and a very basic understanding of the human anatomy and, though I didn't do anything negative (except waste time), if I had gone to seek profesinal help I could have been fixing it faster, and had the correct bike setup, and therefore not compounding the issue.
> 
> BTW to the OP, I have time pedals on my bikes (good angle of float, and all that marketing), but still had knee pain.
> 
> I think both MONO and Berkeley are partially correct, but from my experience do the hardest thing and call a DR. I don't like going to the DR either but unforunatley we only have one body and it has to last our life time.


yeah I know at some point I am going to have to see a DR about my knee. It been acting up like this for well over 5 years now every few months. Just biking seems to make it a little worse. 
I have move my saddle back a little bit and adjusted my cleat location a little to see if between those 2 it takes away some of the pain.


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## Quattro (Dec 26, 2003)

*Interesting discussion*



Timeless said:


> yeah I know at some point I am going to have to see a DR about my knee. It been acting up like this for well over 5 years now every few months. Just biking seems to make it a little worse.
> I have move my saddle back a little bit and adjusted my cleat location a little to see if between those 2 it takes away some of the pain.


I discovered the best position by experimenting. I can feel when the cleat and saddle are in the perfect position. All the muscles of my legs share the load and my knees do not bear the brunt of the load. Also, when all the pressure is on the balls of the foot, it hurts after a long ride. I'm slightly rearward of the drawing, but that is a good starting point. It certainly clears up what the poster said in his first post. Try moving the saddle way back and go for a ride and feel the difference. Then adjust from there.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Timeless said:


> yeah I know at some point I am going to have to see a DR about my knee. It been acting up like this for well over 5 years now every few months. Just biking seems to make it a little worse.
> I have move my saddle back a little bit and adjusted my cleat location a little to see if between those 2 it takes away some of the pain.


also incorporate stretching (especially the i.t. bands) and a proper basic fit on the bike and a pair of BG shoes (cheaper than a dr. visit) before going in. not because i dont believe in seeking professional medical care (quite the opposite, im a nurse) but because of the symptoms you described and the intermittent nature of them. what you describe sounds very much like i.t. band friction syndrome which is primarily remedied simply by therapy rather than surgery.

if you do go in to seek professional medical assistance for this i personally wouldnt go see a g.p. or internal med dr, but rather a sports orthologist/physiologist or physical therapist. the majority of dr's will want to scope your knee and/or start with invasive procedures rather than radiography, ultrasonography, or mri while the other two will try to isolate and remedy the problem biomechanically first.


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## sis (Jul 11, 2007)

You could rest your knee till better, buy a pair of cheap flats and see if the problem comes back. It might not be the pedals at all, just getting older (this is from experience)


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Mono, you started it.*

"I don't mean to be rude but it is simply wrong" doesn't have much of a welcoming tone for discussion. Our world is full of people who believe they have found the answer but in 25 years of cycling I have seen much "truth" pass and fall away to the next new "truth" full of explaination of why the old "truth" was misguided. And so YOU stepped in my Wheaties.

Apparently I cannot count toe knuckles any more than I can tell you where an ankle is on a dog, and your discription in my limited brain had the cleat way to far foreward and, hence, the predicted leg pain. Your diagram is so very helpful and describes where I put a cleat.

It is nice to see that the latest cutting edge science has caught up with our "stone knives and bearskins" approach to positioning here at the edges of civilization. It's about time. 

I still wish this guy would back off his riding to get help and heal.


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## Timeless (Mar 23, 2007)

Berkeley Mike said:


> "I don't mean to be rude but it is simply wrong" doesn't have much of a welcoming tone for discussion. Our world is full of people who believe they have found the answer but in 25 years of cycling I have seen much "truth" pass and fall away to the next new "truth" full of explaination of why the old "truth" was misguided. And so YOU stepped in my Wheaties.
> 
> Apparently I cannot count toe knuckles any more than I can tell you where an ankle is on a dog, and your discription in my limited brain had the cleat way to far foreward and, hence, the predicted leg pain. Your diagram is so very helpful and describes where I put a cleat.
> 
> ...


I might like to point out I do not ride every day but 2-3 times a week. Part of the reason I did not ride yesterday is because of my knee. I make it a little worse because every day I need to walk a few miles around campus to my classes (got to love going to a school with the largest campus in the US).

I am hoping to get the time to go riding maybe either tomorrow night or Thursday. It does depend on how my knee is feeling but by then it should be fine. This morning it not anything more than a little stiff.

As for Science it example why things are done the way they are like in the 25 years of cycling it explain the reasoning on why we set things a certain way and hell it takes what the general "stone age" meathods and improves on them. The "stone age" gets close but never as good as science which fine tunes it.

Now the entire body set up for sports I think is part science and part art. Everyone is a little different so it does require a little fine tuning and guess work. I always think people should be open to what science is telling them, coaches really need to be open to it and look at it because they might of been doing it for years but just the little fine tuning from the science side could mean that little edge they where looking for in their athletes.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

monogod said:


> line A is the line from center of big toe knuckle.
> 
> line B is the line from center of pinky toe knuckle.
> 
> mount cleat along black line.


It that where my pinky toe knuckle is? I think mine doesn't work.


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## zeppman (May 11, 2007)

I'm 25 and have the same issues, but with my right knee. I think my problems were caused by the fact that I'm also a runner, and ran cross country/track in high school and college. Went to an ortho, who sent me for physical therapy. 4 weeks later and doing stretches almost every evening has greatly improved my knees. I also have clipless pedals and am trying to experiment to get the perfect position. They bother my knees from time to time, but stretching and leg exercises help a ton.


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## Kyle88 (May 30, 2007)

Timeless said:


> I been riding Shaminos M520 pedals for a while. My knees now are starting hurt a little after I ride and I know that I do not have the best of knees.
> 
> I have been told that if I had a pedal with more float it would help the problem. I am wanting to know what would be some good pedals I should consider to replace my trusted m520s with.
> I do not want speed frogs because in the area I ride we have a lot of things that will just get jammed in the cleats.
> ...


This all seems like good advice, but first and foremost I would have a doctor take a look at your knees. Changing things on your bike could temporarily fix the problem, but if there's some scar tissue or something like that in your knee you should get that fixed first.

My $.01


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

kapusta said:


> It that where my pinky toe knuckle is? I think mine doesn't work.


yeppa, thats where it is. dont feel bad, most people dont have a great deal of flexibility in that particular joint.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Apparently I cannot count toe knuckles any more than I can tell you where an ankle is on a dog


apparently. but thats ok, im sure you mean well...


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Stone Age gets close but never as good as science?*

The "stone age" gets close but never as good as science which fine tunes it.

You are kidding, right? In many things science simply plays catch-up or helps to understand why the dang wheel worked in the first place. An academic approach certainly can fill the head with ideas but any scientist will tell you that experience is what gives everything body, context, and fine tuning.

This is vitally important where humans are concerned as one, most importantly involved in care and treatment of humans in need, would never think of simply taking settings from a chart, applying them, and walking away. The facility for real-time consideration and adjustment is a quality that science hasn't managed to control but remains the bailiwick of craft and art. Neither of these are learned from a book or science.

Yet.

I recall the phrase, "it's not rocket science," when trying to qualify the relative simplicity of some task. Rocket Science was used to descibe the highest reaches of human difficulty in the 60's. When actual Rocket Scientists were asked, in 2005, what they would use to descibe the highest reaches of human difficulty their phrase was, "it's not social work."


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> The "stone age" gets close but never as good as science which fine tunes it.
> 
> You are kidding, right? In many things science simply plays catch-up or helps to understand why the wheel worked in the first place. An academic approach certainly can fill the head with ideas but any scientist will tell you that experience is what gives everything body, context, and fine tuning.


yes, he was just kidding and was just trying to save face and find a way to swallow the hard truth that you are absolutely right, and all of us are wrong. you know more and better than does science/academia. physiologists? HA! kinesiologists? AS IF! the bottom line is that YOU are the pioneer and science is playing catch up to YOU. :thumbsup:

there now... will you drop it?


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Ahhh! That's better.*

I am kidding.

I worked in hospitals for a decade and it takes more than science to work successfully with people. Surely you must know this; you are a Nurse and Nurses work at the front lines day in and day out.

Good luck with your studies.


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## cminer (Aug 28, 2007)

Here are a couple of links to the solution to my knee and ankle problems. Good luck in your search.

CM

http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/prodreview/newproduct/lewedge.html

http://www.bicyclefit.com/wedge.htm


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## chris-crisis (Jul 16, 2007)

Do you wear orthotics?

I have for years and have had knee problems for years as well.

I have been trying barefoot running on dirt tracks for the last couple of months and my knee problems seem to be dissappearing. Strange thing is that when running up and down dirt hills concentrating on not trading on stones that will hurt the whole dynamics of how your legs work is different - Especially downhill.

I think orthotics etc are to try fix missalignment by changing the angles. But I think the real problems are more weakness in certain muscles that can be strengthened doing things like running barefoot and tightness of muscles like the it band that can be fixed with proper stretching.

I only run about 20 minutes three times a week as any more make my feet too sore. I also noticed my calfs get very tired as they seem to do a lot more work that running in shoes.


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## cminer (Aug 28, 2007)

chris-crisis said:


> Do you wear orthotics?
> 
> I have for years and have had knee problems for years as well.
> 
> ...


No orthotics. I just found that when I changed to clipless pedals, they wanted to hold my foot in an unnatural (for me) position on the pedal. By using the wedges to very slightly roll my foot outward the misalignment that seemed to be causing angle and knee discomfort went away.

Your milage may vary.

CM


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## EDDIE JONES (Mar 26, 2005)

monogod said:


> line A is the line from center of big toe knuckle.
> 
> line B is the line from center of pinky toe knuckle.
> 
> mount cleat along black line.


I have horrible knees (surgeries, injuries, and just being overweight). I switched fron Shimano's to Times for the float and it got a little better. I then did exactly as Monogod says and positioned the cleat a little further back on the shoe and I have no more knee pain. I ride an Indy Fab 29er SS and weigh 285lbs, so if anyone is going to have knee pain it would be me. But Monogods suggestion works. It feels as though the bodyweight stress is taken off of the front of the knee. I now ride this beast with no knee pain at all. The only pain that I experience now is just the pain of being fat and old.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> Dude, drop it, you sound like a child screaming about.. accusing others of doing exactly what you are. Secondly how can you possibly tell someone to get body geometry shoes which are designed specifically for an overpronator if you yourself have not seen the OP gate and if he is an overpronator. He could be an underpronator like myself and find the Specialized shoes to be complete crap. See this is the problem with "science" trying to exact an approach for all when everyone is different. Oh and Body Geometry sucks on all levels from shoes to gloves !!!


wow, youre the only one getting bent sideways here. we were having fun and neither of us is taking it seriously. thats what this "  " means. :thumbsup:

and no, BG shoes are NOT designed specifically for an overpronator. they have nothing to do with the foot, but rather the varus wedge properly aligns the KNEE.

an exact approach is not the answer for everyone, but there are certain basics to cover initially.

oh why bother with this troll... feeding them only makes it worse. ill learn one of these days...


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*How has this postion been determined?*

I imagine that natural weight bearing and the flex of the foot while walking figures into this.


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## laackund (Sep 10, 2004)

there are alot of good suggestions here... i guess 1 more wont hurt. I had to consult with my brother (physical therapist) about some of my chronic knee problems. 

Diagnosis for me: after a blown out PCL ligament in my L knee back in highschool, strength was serverly cut down. w/o knowing it, i compensated for it by letting my knee bend inward (rather than its natural motion; straight up and down)when doing things like standing up or pedal. this in turn put a lot of strain on other ligaments (MCL) in my knee= gradual pain. when i was pedaling, usually seated, my L knee would bend in towards the frame on each push stroke.

Solution: technique, technique, technique. (and more rehab for the injury). like others have mentioned, cleat, saddle and overall position are VERY important to comfort and strength, its just 1 more thing to add in the equation.


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## Timeless (Mar 23, 2007)

EDDIE JONES said:


> I have horrible knees (surgeries, injuries, and just being overweight). I switched fron Shimano's to Times for the float and it got a little better. I then did exactly as Monogod says and positioned the cleat a little further back on the shoe and I have no more knee pain. I ride an Indy Fab 29er SS and weigh 285lbs, so if anyone is going to have knee pain it would be me. But Monogods suggestion works. It feels as though the bodyweight stress is taken off of the front of the knee. I now ride this beast with no knee pain at all. The only pain that I experience now is just the pain of being fat and old.


Thanks that information about times does help out quite a bit. 
Today I road with the adjustment to my cleats and saddle. I will say just moving the cleat back a few mm made a huge difference in it felt clipped in. It just felt more natural. The saddle back I not sure how much of a differences at made but the cleat movement was noticeable better both in and out of the saddle.

As for the knee pains it less than last time but a huge amount but still a little pain in the left knee. If it keeps going I will try to the upgrading to times pedals. Right now money is rather tight for me so I can not afford that upgrade yet.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

Monogod the information posted above is incredibly knowledgable. you really know your stuff. I too have a little experience on the subject an was wondering something. I noticed you endorse Body geometry and orthotics. In the past I have had some trouble getting those shoes to do what they were designed to do. I have also had to help people who were fitted with orthotics but never got any real relief. I have found a good course of action is to check for any strength imbalances and see if I can find something of a exercise course of action to strengthen any problems the person may be exibiting. I think it may be almost impossible to know with any certainty that the shoes and orthotics you advised will actually help the OP. What would you do if a person came in to see you and the shoes or inserts did not help with the tracking of his knee? Also don't take offense to what Berkeley is saying I think he has a point that may be quite valid in this case.


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## nagatahawk (Jun 20, 2007)

I have two knees with individual different issues. I have adjusted the seat back, kinda figured that on my own. today I will purchase the froggies. my left knee was broken in a bike accident, t fracture across the socket. the right knee has a pain under ther knee cap. this resulted from having to unclip my right foot to stop for traffic light on the way to the bike path. my spds were sticking from time to time which cause stress to the knee when I twisted my foot to unclip. I will take greater care to position the clip when i install them. also I have been really holding off on rides to rest the knee. Aslo I have found this stuff called HA. is is very good for joints. I have athritis in my hands and the HA had immediate results. the knee is another story. 

i will post up on any improvements if any with the new froggies.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I imagine that natural weight bearing and the flex of the foot while walking figures into this.


absolutely! :thumbsup:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> ~trollish drivel snipped~


not only have i never stated or implied that science or myself is infallible, but no reasonably sane person could even infer it. there are many things that i have a great deal of education, knowledge, and experience in and it is from this reservoir that advice and opinions are given on these topics. on topics which i hold less education/knowledge/experience i may give my opinion or thoughs, but i do qualify them as such.

i will not address your childish personal attacks, or be dragged into a preschool name calling/insult contest with you. nor is there any need to defend or justify my credentials, which are more than ample to make the statements you so vociferously disagree with.

what i will address is the fact that much of what you state as fact is, from an anatomical/physiological/kinesiological standpoint, total bovine excrement. im sure you would like to believe that i simply overheard something about this topic and/or bg shoes/equipment or read a pamphlet on it, or am simply hawking it because we're a specialized dealer but unfortunately you would be wrong on all counts to assume thusly.

oh btw, a troll is not someone who posts "dogmatic info which helps no one". rather, a troll is someone who posts something either controversial or personally attacking with the intent of drawing someone into an argument or raising their ire.*** (that would be you) :thumbsup:

so we can either agree to disagree or you can continue to act like a troll. if you choose the latter and decline to be civil and behave as an adult i will simply disregard and not respond to any further posts from you on the topic as ive made a vow to discontinue feeding the trolls.

have a great day! 

*** _"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET, with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response."_

source


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*What if you are pidgeon toed*

or duck footed?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> like I said... you, are the troll in this thread. You did thankfully describe your posts to a tee. Now, onto topic, the OP should rest and see a doc. End of story. He should not go buy Specialized shoes or fool with saddle position or anything until it is ruled out that overuse or any other major factor is not involved. Anything else is simple irresponsible. Oh and I did not "bait you into an argumentative response" I asked you to stop baiting others. :thumbsup: Also much of the info. in your previous posts was good but your not there yet and as such are making some rookie mistakes. You will learn once you finish your education and get out in the sports physiology field a while. You'll even look back at posts like this one and think " how could I have been so naive" . No worries . Pop quiz: what is it that causes people to walk with toes in, toes out, or neutral?


in addition to setting up little strawmen which you triumphantly topple you certainly have (incorrectly) assumed a great deal simply because I am currently pursuing specific degrees. unbeknownst to you my entry into the field of sports medicine and physiology is not a recent one, but rather am seeking specific degrees which will allow me to prescribe training routines as well as treat injuries by prescribing activities and physical therapy. so not only am I not new to sports medicine im not new to medicine in general (just so happens im also a nurse).

likewise I am just now seeking a degree in nutrition which will enable me to prescribe diet in correlation to physical activities despite having well over a decade of experience in the specialty of sports nutrition. thus, seeking such a degree doesnt make me new to the discipline, but rather is simply the next step in order to prescribe diet/nutrition. similarly my seeking of degrees in sports physiology/kinesiology.

but speaking of rookie mistakes, you failed to listen to the "patient" who said the pain was INTERMITTENT occuring every few months or so for a couple of days. 
In response to me asking&#8230;


monogod said:


> also, where and what type of pain is it?
> 
> is it a radiating pain with genesis from inside the knee?
> 
> is the pain lateral or medial of the knee joint?


Timeless responded&#8230;


timeless said:


> best way to describe the knee pain is when it acts up is a sharp pain on my left knee on the lower left side. Sharp enough it hurts moving the knee. That happens every few months for a day or 2.
> Dull pain will just be general in the knee it self and I been noticing it coming up more and more lately. It is enough to keep me from running much.
> Never really had pain from side to actions so stressing the knee laterally with quick movements has never really bothers it.


because there are several factors that play into overuse syndrome of the knee I asked these questions in an attempt to determine if the pain was perhaps from chondromalacia, chrondromalacia patella, prepatellar bursitis, prepatellar subluxation, patelleofemoral pain syndrome, partial tear or overstress of either of the menisci, quad tendinitis, patellar tendinitis, or i.t. band friction syndrome; with patelleofemoral pain syndrome and i.t. band syndrome among the most common.

actually, it is most rookies who are quick to howl "overuse syndrome" because they do not understand the physiology of the knee or even of overuse syndrome for that matter. however, due to the fact that the pain is acute, sporadic, and intermittent rather than chronic the chances are slim that the cause of the pain is, in fact, chronic overuse syndrome thus pointing to an alternate etiology. rather than being infrequent and terminable, generally overuse syndrome is chronic in nature until cessation of the activity which is exacerbating it and rectification of anatomical/phyisiological/kinesiological causality.

acute overuse syndrome is generally caused by improper physiology/kinesiology and in cycling is generally remedied by proper bike fit, proper stretching, and orthotics; but can be caused by over training for a specific event or re-entering the sport after a hiatus or injury. however, the description given by timeless didnt seem to include over training. thus, the BASELINE suggestions which were made were appropriate given the initial questions and subsequent responses of timeless.

in response to your asinine neophyte pop quiz the most prevalent causes for in-toeing are metatarsus adductus, femoral antiversion, and tibial torsion. out-toeing is much less common and its etiology generally lies in neuromuscular abnormalities, tibial external rotation, or excessive femoral retroversion.

lastly, there is a distinct difference in disagreeing with someone and stating why (called a discussion) and starting a personal flame war with someone (called being a troll). although its clear you disagree with the information within certain posts of mine you responded with personal attacks and insults and attempted to discredit the author (with the assumption that then the information is then by default invalid) rather than simply stating what you disagree with and why.

so yes, my friend, you have been acting like a troll by hijacking the thread and attempting to convert it into a "you vs. me" forum rather than addressing the questions that timeless had about his knee pain and providing any information or advice you have in response whether it be in agreement or disagreement with previous posters.


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## noshortcuts (Nov 29, 2005)

I find that if I have pain on the inside of the knee, the saddle is usually a bit high.
If I have pain on the outside of the knee, the saddle is usually a bit low. 
At least with a lot of high output climbing, a little differences in height can have a big impact on the knees.

If it is the IT Band, it can take a lot of work to undo it, but you can do it. I fixed mine with lots of massage (thumbs and rolling pin up and down), special ITband stretches, and special exercises to strengthen certain muscles that help balance out the weaker leg muscles with the stronger and reduce stress on the ITband. The stretches and exercises I mostly found in an online physical therapy paper written by the Standford sports medicine clinic. Lastly, I run less, bike more, and listen to my body so I know when to adjust seat height, rest, stretch, take advil, and so on.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

If your posterior chain is not up to strength you will be "duck" footed. You do not remedy the problem by providing a band-aid for the cure. A person needs orthotics because his muscle strength between opposing forces is out of wack. All joint problems stem from stress put on them in an incorrect manor. Typically this comes from muscle strength imbalances. It is simple intermittent pain which can stem from a majority of things but overuse can clearly be stated here. Heck he could be trying to loose weight and not eating enough to recover and the pain is a result. He could be dehydrated spiking his histamine levels and showing it in the form of sore knees. Typical science...overdoing the simplest of things. By the way I do have respect for your knowledge and I am truly enjoying our little debate here. What I'm really trying to show you is that things do not need to be so complicated, there are simple solutions out there, and complicated scientific knowledge is great at dissecting things but often way off the mark at solving them.


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## Timeless (Mar 23, 2007)

rounder said:


> See this is what I'm talking about. all you have been able to do is name off the results of the factors involved not the root cause. The correct answer to the Question above is a simple discrepency of strength between the posterior chain and the Quad. If your posterior chain is not up to strength you will be "duck" footed. You are not remeding the problem by providing a band-aid for the cure. A person needs orthotics because his muscle strength between opposing forces is out of wack. All joint problems stem from stress put on them in an incorrect manor. Typically this comes from muscle strength imbalances. It is simple intermittent pain which can stem from a majority of things but overuse can clearly be stated here. Heck he could be trying to loose weight and not eating enough to recover and the pain is a result. He could be dehydrated spiking his histamine levels and showing it in the form of sore knees. Typical science...overdoing the simplest of things. By the way I do have respect for your knowledge and I am truly enjoying our little debate here. What I'm really trying to show you is that things do not need to be so complicated, there are simple solutions out there, and complicated scientific knowledge is great at dissecting things but often way off the mark at solving them.


I might want to point out a few things. First off I am not trying to loose weight. Hell it would be unheathty for me to lose weight. Dehydration I do not think is a factor consider I drink a lot of water.
I am 24 years old male, 6' 4" and my weight is between 155-160. I am 5-10 lb heavier than I was 10 years ago. I am on the boarder line between under weight and normal weight. I know for a fact weak knees by genetics. My bone frame is a lot more like my moms side than my dads sides. My mom has very bad knees and I happen to be suffering the same pains she does just at a slightly younger age. Also it is almost all mussel. I might also like to point out my low weight is genetics and not really do anything to keep it that way. I eat quite a bit of food. 
Just figure I would remove your part about losing weight and it being a weight related issue. I know what flares up the pain and it is from biking. Have I been putting slight my stress on my legs than normal Yes I am back at college right now which means I am walking a hell of a lot more than normal. This has not been a problem in the pass until I added in the extra stress from biking. But I do not bike often enough for the argument of overuse. I might ride ever 2-3 days and even then I might hit 10 miles and about an hour on the trails.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> See this is what I'm talking about. all you have been able to do is name off the results of the factors involved not the root cause. The correct answer to the Question above is a simple discrepency of strength between the posterior chain and the Quad. If your posterior chain is not up to strength you will be "duck" footed. You are not remeding the problem by providing a band-aid for the cure. A person needs orthotics because his muscle strength between opposing forces is out of wack. All joint problems stem from stress put on them in an incorrect manor. Typically this comes from muscle strength imbalances. It is simple intermittent pain which can stem from a majority of things but overuse can clearly be stated here. Heck he could be trying to loose weight and not eating enough to recover and the pain is a result. He could be dehydrated spiking his histamine levels and showing it in the form of sore knees. Typical science...overdoing the simplest of things. By the way I do have respect for your knowledge and I am truly enjoying our little debate here. What I'm really trying to show you is that things do not need to be so complicated, there are simple solutions out there, and complicated scientific knowledge is great at dissecting things but often way off the mark at solving them.


um.... actually no, those are not results of the factors, they are root causes. when you gain a deeper medical understanding of in-toeing and out-toeing you will realize this.

the purpose of the questions i asked timeless were to eliminate the simple things first. in medicine one ALWAYS eliminates the simple first. if you read the post you will see that simple solutions _were_ mentioned, i.e. bike fit, orthotics, stretching, etc.

because the pain is acute and transient it is highly unlikely that dehydration would be the cause of the isolated joint pain. acute dehydration will usually result in headache first, followed by systemic joint pain rather than isolated joint pain. yes, histamine is released during chronic dehydration also, but again headache is usually one of the first results followed by systemic joint pain and aches and the pain will not be isolated and transient. also, histamine release will simply cause aching in the joints rather than the type of pain that timeless described.

histamine (and calcium) is also released during cell breakdown caused by injury (including overuse), and unless immediately stretched FOLLOWING the exercise the muscles release leukotrienes which cause muscle contracture resulting in muscle spasms, but not isolated joint pain. but again, stretching was suggested because it was a possibility.

lastly, muscle strength imbalances are generally chronic in nature rather than acute, so it is highly unlikely that this is the etiology of acute, isolated knee pain.

so given all the factors, involved along with the information provided by timeless do not corroborate or justify your suggested etiology.

*EDIT: the additional information given by timeless that he posted while i was typing this corroborates all of the previous information and possible etiologies and resultant suggestions ive previously offered.*


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Timeless said:


> I might want to point out a few things. First off I am not trying to loose weight. Hell it would be unheathty for me to lose weight. Dehydration I do not think is a factor consider I drink a lot of water.
> I am 24 years old male, 6' 4" and my weight is between 155-160. I am 5-10 lb heavier than I was 10 years ago. I am on the boarder line between under weight and normal weight. I know for a fact weak knees by genetics. My bone frame is a lot more like my moms side than my dads sides. My mom has very bad knees and I happen to be suffering the same pains she does just at a slightly younger age. Also it is almost all mussel. I might also like to point out my low weight is genetics and not really do anything to keep it that way. I eat quite a bit of food.
> Just figure I would remove your part about losing weight and it being a weight related issue. I know what flares up the pain and it is from biking. Have I been putting slight my stress on my legs than normal Yes I am back at college right now which means I am walking a hell of a lot more than normal. This has not been a problem in the pass until I added in the extra stress from biking. But I do not bike often enough for the argument of overuse. I might ride ever 2-3 days and even then I might hit 10 miles and about an hour on the trails.


since biking is a low impact sport and ideal for people with bad knees, given the additional information it seems even more likely that the root would point to physiology on the bike. get a basis bike fit done and look into orthotics and or bg shoes. orthotic inserts basically align the knee properly, which is the same thing the bg shoes do an specialized makes some really nice shoes. even their entry level shoes benefit from the bg science and technology. if you have some really nice shoes already, specialized also makes a varus wedge insert to accomplish the same goal.

the reason i suggest bg shoes or inserts initially is simply financial. going to a sports ortho aint cheap, and neither are custom orthotics. but what we've found is that most of the time the orthotics that cost several hundreds of dollars to obtain (taking into account dr. visits and the orthotics themselves) often do nothing more than what the bg shoes/inserts do.

also find some strengthening exercises for you knees. if you do suffer from genetic cartilage degeneration having a stronger musculature around the knee will help to reduce not only aches and pains, but also reduce the likely hood of injury.

ive got some great stretches and exercises for the knees if youre interested.


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## ArmySlowRdr (Dec 19, 2003)

not to hijack thios thread--but monogod--do u work up in the Waco LBS? I have a pal coming in from Hawaii for a business mtg in Dallas--he arrives Mon morning the 24th---thereis a slim chance he might wanna meet up in Waco for a ride. Does the shop rent ?--an xc full suspension would be the ticket.



monogod said:


> since biking is a low impact sport and ideal for people with bad knees, given the additional information it seems even more likely that the root would point to physiology on the bike. get a basis bike fit done and look into orthotics and or bg shoes. orthotic inserts basically align the knee properly, which is the same thing the bg shoes do an specialized makes some really nice shoes. even their entry level shoes benefit from the bg science and technology. if you have some really nice shoes already, specialized also makes a varus wedge insert to accomplish the same goal.
> 
> the reason i suggest bg shoes or inserts initially is simply financial. going to a sports ortho aint cheap, and neither are custom orthotics. but what we've found is that most of the time the orthotics that cost several hundreds of dollars to obtain (taking into account dr. visits and the orthotics themselves) often do nothing more than what the bg shoes/inserts do.
> 
> ...


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## Timeless (Mar 23, 2007)

monogod said:


> since biking is a low impact sport and ideal for people with bad knees, given the additional information it seems even more likely that the root would point to physiology on the bike. get a basis bike fit done and look into orthotics and or bg shoes. orthotic inserts basically align the knee properly, which is the same thing the bg shoes do an specialized makes some really nice shoes. even their entry level shoes benefit from the bg science and technology. if you have some really nice shoes already, specialized also makes a varus wedge insert to accomplish the same goal.
> 
> the reason i suggest bg shoes or inserts initially is simply financial. going to a sports ortho aint cheap, and neither are custom orthotics. but what we've found is that most of the time the orthotics that cost several hundreds of dollars to obtain (taking into account dr. visits and the orthotics themselves) often do nothing more than what the bg shoes/inserts do.
> 
> ...


I will have to keep that in mind. Believe me I would buy some BG shoes right now to help out but right now my funds are stretch beyond paper thin to the point where I am looking for what ever cash I can scrap up to make it though the last semester of college.

I hoping for a break and maybe getting little extra cash to finish off the semester. But after I finish school and in the spring I should have a little extra cash to spend on this stuff. Just have to make it to christmas first :thumbsup:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Timeless said:


> I will have to keep that in mind. Believe me I would buy some BG shoes right now to help out but right now my funds are stretch beyond paper thin to the point where I am looking for what ever cash I can scrap up to make it though the last semester of college.
> 
> I hoping for a break and maybe getting little extra cash to finish off the semester. But after I finish school and in the spring I should have a little extra cash to spend on this stuff. Just have to make it to christmas first :thumbsup:


dude, i totally understand. thats why i suggested the bg inserts as an alternative to the shoes since they are cheaper. entry bg mtn shoes start at $80 while the orthotic is only $45. if you would like to try out the bg insert pm me and i can probably hook you up with one for under retail. :thumbsup:


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> also find some strengthening exercises for you knees. if you do suffer from genetic cartilage degeneration having a stronger musculature around the knee will help to reduce not only aches and pains, but also reduce the likely hood of injury.
> 
> ive got some great stretches and exercises for the knees if youre interested.


This is the best advice given so far. The OP says the knees flare up while riding. Clipping in is more than likely exasperbating the issue as it probably turns his knee into an unnatural position. Do not feel you are limited by genetic deterioration. While genetics factor into the equasion you can battle genetics with strength training to help yourself from ever exibiting the deficency. I still believe rest is in order. You walk more than usual and when you get on the bike then the issue unfolds. This is what is deemed as overuse. Whether genetic or strength orientated, in your particular case you have knee flareup when biking is added to your weekly regimen. This happens all the time to people who add running or weight training without reducing their work load and building it back up. As a person on a limited budget get yourself in a program where the muscular defficencies involved can be corrected to help yourself combat the genetic issue. Monogod can easily recommend a strength and stretching program for you to do. I would say stay off the bike for now and work with him.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

Timeless said:


> I might want to point out a few things. First off I am not trying to loose weight. Hell it would be unheathty for me to lose weight. Dehydration I do not think is a factor consider I drink a lot of water.
> I am 24 years old male, 6' 4" and my weight is between 155-160. I am 5-10 lb heavier than I was 10 years ago. I am on the boarder line between under weight and normal weight. I know for a fact weak knees by genetics. My bone frame is a lot more like my moms side than my dads sides. My mom has very bad knees and I happen to be suffering the same pains she does just at a slightly younger age. Also it is almost all mussel. I might also like to point out my low weight is genetics and not really do anything to keep it that way. I eat quite a bit of food.
> Just figure I would remove your part about losing weight and it being a weight related issue. I know what flares up the pain and it is from biking. Have I been putting slight my stress on my legs than normal Yes I am back at college right now which means I am walking a hell of a lot more than normal. This has not been a problem in the pass until I added in the extra stress from biking. But I do not bike often enough for the argument of overuse. I might ride ever 2-3 days and even then I might hit 10 miles and about an hour on the trails.


From your description I believe the act of clipping in causes you to turn your feet more foward into an unnatural position for your strength. By this I mean you more than likely walk duck footed and can not keep you feet in that position on the bike due to the crank arms. Heres the thing about your genetic defficency. While your Mother may have bad knees you don't need to. See her knee problem could be the result of muscular imbalance issues. You yourself probably have the same issues. These issues are completely correctable. Thing is medicine is a business so it's rare that a Doctor will correct your/her issues by prescribing a simple training plan to stamp out the problem. After all... there's no money in that. For instance asthma runs in my family. At 25 after college and letting myself gain weight I developed it. The docs. only prescribed med for the asthma. Turns out after some research on my own I was able to correct the problem and never had an attack again. The prescription was to loose weight back to my lean self and insure proper hydration and salt intake. See I don't buy into "genetic deficency" as easily as the rest. I do believe that you can correct the symptom shown through your genetics and I help people to do just that.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> From your description I believe the act of clipping in causes you to turn your feet more foward into an unnatural position for your strength. By this I mean you more than likely walk duck footed and can not keep you feet in that position on the bike due to the crank arms.


i would disagree with much of what you said and will share why. not a personal attack/judgment, but simply that i do not believe the opinions can be justified from a educational/scientific/genetic/anatomical standpoint.

imo this is a wreckless diagnosis not only because it assumes facts not in evidence since the op has not stated if his gait is normal, in-toeing, or out-toeing; but also because it carries the erroneous assumption that in-toeing is the result of muscle weakness

rule number one in medicine is LISTEN TO THE PATIENT! rule number two is ASSUME NOTHING! these are both especially true when the malady is subjective rather than objective as is the case here. :thumbsup:

if improper foot alignment due to being clipped in were the case the pain would be chronic corresponding to cycling rather than acute as the op clearly stated. additionally, improper foot alignment while being clipped in is virtually always the result of improperly mounted cleats.

also, it is VERY (read: EXTREMELY, VIRTUALLY NON-EXISTENTLY) rare for the etiology of adult in-toeing or out-toeing to be muscular strength imbalance/deficiency. rather, adult in-toeing almost ALWAYS is the result of skeletal deformation (hip, femur, tibia, ankle or foot) that was not properly addressed and rectified during childhood.



rounder said:


> Heres the thing about your genetic defficency. While your Mother may have bad knees you don't need to. See her knee problem could be the result of muscular imbalance issues. You yourself probably have the same issues. These issues are completely correctable.


its true that a genetic deformation/weakness is not automatically passed from parent to child. however, if in fact the op indeed does have genetic joint weakness or degeneration then no, the cause is not muscular imbalance but rather is GENETIC. inherited genetic issues are NOT environmental in nature. and no, genetic joint deterioration/weakness disorders are not completely correctable. their impact can be addressed and minimized, but not necessarily corrected.

it is true that a proper proactive response to genetic joint weakness/degeneration involves not only maintaining strength and flexibility but also proper nutrition and hydration as well. but simply because one is predisposed to something doesnt mean they will necessarily suffer from it or that even if they do they have to just accept it; but it does mean that sometimes the only thing that can be done is to slow the progression of the disease.



rounder said:


> Thing is medicine is a business so it's rare that a Doctor will correct your/her issues by prescribing a simple training plan to stamp out the problem. After all... there's no money in that.


for the most part i would agree with that with the exception of sports medicine.

my personal philosophy is education/wellness/prevention, with reactionary responses when necessary to bring the person back to healthy baseline.



rounder said:


> See I don't buy into "genetic deficency" as easily as the rest. I do believe that you can correct the symptom shown through your genetics and I help people to do just that.


genetic deficiency doesnt require anyone to buy into it. when it exists, it exists whether one wants to acknowledge it or not.

symptoms of genetic deficiencies cannot be corrected in and of themselves as symptoms are a direct result of disease process. symptoms can only be genuinely alleviated by resolving the issue (be it genetic or otherwise). symptoms can be eased and managed through p.t., o.t., meds, meditation, distraction, etc. but can never in and of themselves be removed without addressing their cause.

timeless: let me know via pm if youre interested in the orthotics.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

i would disagree with much of what you said and will share why. not a personal attack/judgment, but simply that i do not believe the opinions can be justified from a educational/scientific/genetic/anatomical standpoint.


rounder said:


> The OP says the knees flare up while riding.


not exactly. it occurs every FEW MONTHS for a day or two while riding. not every time he rides.



rounder said:


> Clipping in is more than likely exasperbating the issue as it probably turns his knee into an unnatural position.


it is very possible that the knee is not in the correct biomechanical position while clipped in (this is what bg shoes/inserts correct). however, it is virtually impossible that clipping in is straightening his feet from in-toeing as if this were the case the pain would be chronic and would be present during each ride rather than being acute.

also, due to the type of pain that the op described the etiology seems much more biomechanical and/or due to i.t. band friction syndrome.

i.t. band friction syndrome mimics many other knee disorders and maladies and can express itself either chronically or acutely.



rounder said:


> You walk more than usual and when you get on the bike then the issue unfolds. This is what is deemed as overuse.


since op has been in college for some time chances are his body is used to all the walking and this is not walking more than usual FOR HIM. walking more than usual for the average fat, lazy american? oh heck to the yeah! but not for him.

and i would respectfully disagree that it would be deemed overuse simply because overuse syndrome is indicative of not giving the body a chance to recuperate and heal. according to op he is not riding too long or hard or frequently thus he is most likely not preventing the body from healing.



rounder said:


> Whether genetic or strength orientated, in your particular case you have knee flareup when biking is added to your weekly regimen.


actually no, he doesnt. i hate to sound like a broken record, but again it is acute in nature rather than chronic.



rounder said:


> As a person on a limited budget get yourself in a program where the muscular defficencies involved can be corrected to help yourself combat the genetic issue.


agreed.

yoga is a most excellent way to strengthen the body, and even the most simple and easy poses will build knee and leg strength.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

also, it is VERY (read: EXTREMELY, VIRTUALLY NON-EXISTENTLY) rare for the etiology of adult in-toeing or out-toeing to be muscular strength imbalance/deficiency. rather, adult in-toeing almost ALWAYS is the result of skeletal deformation (hip, femur, tibia, ankle or foot) that was not properly addressed and rectified during childhood. 

I correct people(adults) gate all the time. If your hamstring/adductor to quad ration is not about 2:3 or better in strength then you will walk duck footed. I have brought strength ratios up in training clients and their gate always changes. Let me know when you observe a power athlete with a toe out walk.(true athlete not weekend warrior).
Any trainer, strength coach knows of what I speak. Align the muscles and you will align the knee. This will serve the OP towards less pain. There is a reason all professional trainers train their athletes the way they do. Maximize strength and power and keep the body aligned properly. Toes foward, level hips, Shoulders back. Perfect posture for the athelete. The muscles of the athlete and their balance lead to this goal. This has nothing to do with skeletal deformation. By saying that it is rare or virtually non existent in adults you are in fact sayng that 99% of all people then have skeletal deformations. No they don't. They have imbalanced musculature. A good example that comes to mind is running. In the 70s and before there were running shoes. Now there are running shoes designed for peoples foot strike. O.K., are there less injuries from running? NO! Why not? The "science" says wear x shoe depending on your footfall. Problem of muscular imbalance was never addressed so runners still get injured at the same rate as 30 years ago. Now science is trying to move into cycling with the same nonscence and people are unfortunately buying into it. Science and studies are compelling sales tools in todays market. Just look at the bogus diet books out there. Promises galore, lots of studies to back their opinions but any results. NOPE. Same over- fat and injured Americans as before. Actually... more so now than ever.


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## Ardent (Dec 18, 2006)

This is a really, really interesting thread. Thanks all for sharing your insights.

Edit: Could all participants tone down the personal agressiveness please? It's a really good technical discussion, but the tone comes across more than a bit strong.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> monogod said:
> 
> 
> > if improper foot alignment due to being clipped in were the case the pain would be chronic corresponding to cycling rather than acute as the op clearly stated. additionally, improper foot alignment while being clipped in is virtually always the result of improperly mounted cleats.
> ...


if improper foot alignment DUE TO BEING CLIPPED IN were the case the pain would be CHRONIC. this is because the foot would be misaligned EVERY TIME the foot was clipped in.

and yes, improper foot alignment while being clipped in IS viturally always the result of improperly mounted cleats.

and yes, proper cleat placement of someone with in-toeing or out-toeing is difficult, but it is HIGHLY unlikely that the op suffers from this. again, the pain would be CHRONIC, not acute and transient.

some of what you are saying is correct in the appropriate circumstance, but you are insisting on pounding a square peg into a round hole on this one.



rounder said:


> I correct people(adults) gate all the time. If your hamstring/adductor to quad ration is not about 2:3 or better in strength then you will walk duck footed. I have brought strength ratios up in training clients and their gate always changes. Let me know when you observe a power athlete with a toe out walk.(true athlete not weekend warrior).
> Any trainer, strength coach knows of what I speak.


i know of what you speak. and based on what the op has shared i also know you are incorrect in trying to insist this is the situation.



rounder said:


> Align the muscles and you will align the knee.


not in every case. aligning musculature does not rectify skeletal imbalance. also, aligning the knee during WALKING does not necessarily equate to proper knee alignment for CYCLING. we are talking about CYCLING. one more time... CYCLING.

when one becomes more knowledgeable in the biomechanics and physiology of cycling the invariably come to realize this.



rounder said:


> By you count 99% of all people then have skeletal deformations. No they don't. They have imbalanced musculature.


please, no more strawman arguments. ive never implied, nor could any reasonably sane person infer that this is what ive suggested.



rounder said:


> Just what are they teaching you in school?


just the normal stuff it took me to become a nurse, and what is required while earning my doctorate in sports physiology.



rounder said:


> Treat the problem... don't solve the problem? Sounds like it to me, but then that's why only a handful of trainers are really good at what they do. Same goes with bike fitters, coaches etc. You should learn to solve the underlying problem not bandage it up and hide it with consumer purchased items.


aside from our diametrically opposed deductions what i see to be one of the largest discrepancies between you and i and that i asked the op a ton of questions to try to best ascertain the most probable PROBLEM. you on the other hand seem to ignore this valuable input and simply howl "musculature imbalance" in the face of blatant evidence which suggests otherwise.

a combination of stretching, knee strength exercises, and orthotics to properly align the knee during cycling is addressing the problem rather than bandaging the symptoms; as anyone even mildly proficient in sports med would recognize.

further more, the consumer purchased item which you insist sucks is the result of years of study of the biomechanics and physiology of cycling combined. the varus wedge inserts and bg shoes are not a gimic, but rather properly align the knee for proper biomechanics and have helped thousands of people.

is it a golden bullet? absolutely not. nor did i present it as one. what i stated was that it was a good place to start in CONJUNCTION with stretching and strengthening exercises. then if the problem still persists take the next step and go see a sports ortho. when resolving a problem (medical or otherwise) a wise person will seek the most simple/efficient/cost effective remedy available.

why should one go to the expense of starting off by going to an ortho? a basic bike fit is considered a must by anyone who knows anything about cycling. not even the noobiest noob would dispute the value of proper bike fit. the saddle simply being too high or low can cause both chronic and acute knee pain. even the pitch of the saddle can contribute to it. a basic bike fit should be the VERY FIRST response any time anyone has any question about pain as it is the simplest remedy and often times rectifies the dysfunction which is resulting in the manifestation of pain/discomfort.

once a bike fit is done if the pain is still present bg insert is $45 and stretching and strengthening exercises are free. this is WAAAAAY cheaper than one visit to a sports ortho. if relief is not gained then take it to the next level by seeing a sports ortho.



rounder said:


> A good example that comes to mind is running. In the 70s and before there were running shoes. Now there are running shoes designed for peoples foot strike. O.K., are there less injuries from running? NO! Why not? The "science" says wear x shoe depending on your footfall. Problem of muscular imbalance was never addressed so runners still get injured at the same rate as 30 years ago.


that is entirely incorrect. im a former and current competitive runner who's worked in sports medicine too long for you to pull that one over. please do not embarrass yourself by insisting that gait specific shoes do nothing to reduce and prevent ankle and knee injuries and pain from running.

for one to hold this position they would do nothing but discredit themselves and their knowledge in and of the field of sports ortho/physiology,kinesiology/biomechanics.



rounder said:


> Now science is trying to move into cycling with the same nonscence and people are unfortunately buying into it. Science and studies are compelling sales tools in todays market. Just look at the bogus diet books out there. Promises galore but any results. NOPE. Same over- fat and injured Americans as before. Actually... more so now than ever.


there is a district and profound deliniation between a corrective orthotic and a diet plan, and the reason the diet plans dont work is because people do not exercise with them. every single diet scam also includes the clear instruction to begin and include cardio exercise in conjunction with the program, and in actuality it is the exercise more than the actual diet that takes the weight off.

but thats a red herring and wholly irrelevant here.

what is relevant is that in your zeal to be right what you are failing to miss is that in certain aspects i agree with what youre saying, but youre too quick to chalk up everything to weak musculature even up to IGNORING the information given by the op.

whether or not you have corrected anyones gait has never been questioned. completely discounting musculature imbalance has never been suggested. in fact, everyone should work on correct posture, so youre insistence that this is being wholly disregarded is nothing more than a strawman argument. what you are so vociferously and in vain arguing is a position which is not aligned with the preponderance of evidence.

the bottom line is that if someone has muscular imbalance such that there is marked deformity in gait, then the pain associated with cycling would be CHRONIC and would most likely have knee pain associated with all his other walking/activities as well, which he did not mention. he isolated it to an occurrence every few months with a duration of a couple of days. no matter how you slice it that simply does not even remotely suggest musculature imbalance.

i understand the mistakes you are making because during the infancy of my involvement with medicine and sports ortho i made them too. they include not asking enough questions, disregarding patient input, not clarifying, ignoring symptoms, ignoring clear etiology, unfounded assumptions, insistence of a pet causality as the culprit, assuming facts not in evidence, failing to seek remedies in order from simple to complex, and unwillingness to constantly rethink and re-evaluate ones purposed diagnosis.

thats not a bad thing in and of itself as it shows enthusiasm and zeal. the important thing is that the patient suffers no deficit from them and that growth in knowledge/technique/skills/assessment/judgment/etc. occurs.

i say this not to your shame, but in a genuine interest in helping you to become the best health care provider that you can be.

i have no qualms stating that i certainly do not posses all knowledge in the field and there are instances that require going back to the drawing board or tossing out what seems to be a clear cut etiology in the face of new/additional/more complete information from either the patient or science or experience.

the thing which has really concerned me more than anything during our discourse is your seeming insistence to be correct no matter what the outcome for the op and without regard to the information given by the op which very clearly seems to preclude your pet causality. the "patients" welfare and benefit is always the FIRST AND FOREMOST priority and soundly trumps being right. the reason we get into medicine is to help others, not to be right on a silly interweb forum.

now that youve has your say and ive had mine there is no more use in beating this dead horse and theres really nothing more to debate.

your position is that bg sucks and is nothing more than a silly empty gimmick; that the op is suffering from overuse syndrome and needs to rest; and that correcting his gait via strengthening the musculature is the remedy.

my position is that bg technology can be quite helpful but is not a golden bullet or panacea; that based on the information given the op is not suffering from overuse syndrome; and that the etiology of th


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Ardent said:


> This is a really, really interesting thread. Thanks all for sharing your insights.
> 
> Edit: Could all participants tone down the personal agressiveness please? It's a really good technical discussion, but the tone comes across more than a bit strong.


duly noted, and tone softened via editing of last post.

thanks!


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*If you guys are done pissing on each other....*

we still have a guy with bad knees that he got from his mom.
I go back to my old recommendation to get off the bike, give himself a chance to heal and go see a Doctor.

I don't care much about the tone. It is fine with me.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

*i see youre squirtin a couple more drops out...*

... :lol:


Berkeley Mike said:


> we still have a guy with bad knees that he got from his mom.


speaking from strictly a medical standpoint this is a reckless assumption because it assumes facts not in evidence.

based on the evidence at hand what we actually know is that we have is a guy who has intermittent knee pain occurring every few months or so with a duration of a few days per episode whose mother happens to have bad knees.

he may very well have genetic joint pathology. however, genetic degenerative knee pain can be suspected but not assumed until imagining tests confirm or refute the prospective diagnosis. despite his mother having bad knees imo it is reckless and irresponsible to automatically assume a genetic deficit for the numerous reasons previously elucidated upon.

one thing among many to consider is this... if one has bad knees genetically why would they ONLY be experiencing discomfort due to the one activity that is among the least degenerative and irritating to bad knees?

bad knees do not discriminate between usages and all of the walking and time spent on the feet would be very aggravating to the joint. by the same token, chronic overuse syndrome would result in chronic pain rather than intermittent, transient, acute pain with months between episodes.

the op says he does nothing out of the ordinary when the pain occurs which also would really seem to be counter indicative of acute overuse syndrome as well. remember... LISTEN to the patient and assume NOTHING! :thumbsup:

perhaps being in the medical profession causes me to take a more responsible, conservative, and comprehensive approach both diagnostically and reactively.

which reminds me, cant forget to throw in the legal mumbo jumbo... the information and opinions provided herein by any medical personnel is for informational/educational purposes only and is not intended to diagnose or treat any disease. what is done with the opinions expressed is entirely up to each individual and they are solely responsible for any and all outcome. consult your physician before beginning any exercise program. allow 4-6 weeks for delivery. no c.o.d. additional shipping and handling charges may apply. blah... blah... blah... you get the picture.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

chris-crisis said:


> Do you wear orthotics?
> 
> I have for years and have had knee problems for years as well.
> 
> ...


Chris you are brilliant in your analogy here and I applaud you.:thumbsup:


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> since biking is a low impact sport and ideal for people with bad knees, given the additional information it seems even more likely that the root would point to physiology on the bike. get a basis bike fit done and look into orthotics and or bg shoes. orthotic inserts basically align the knee properly, which is the same thing the bg shoes do an specialized makes some really nice shoes. even their entry level shoes benefit from the bg science and technology. if you have some really nice shoes already, specialized also makes a varus wedge insert to accomplish the same goal.
> 
> Low impact compared to what? Commonly assumed but wrong. The stress from cycling on the knee is due to the depth of angle a rider puts their knee through. Sure the cyclist does not land on the knee with bodyweight and gravity but he still stresses it. Yes it can be therapeutic while just spinning but the minute pressure is imposed on the pedals we have a sport that does in fact stress the knee. Cycling is not ideal for people with bad knees. Rest and strengthening the unbalanced musculature is ideal for bad knees.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

detete


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

Something I just thought of from a common sense perspective. If body geometry is such a science then why have the products gone through redesigns? And I don't mean for cosmetic improvement. Specialized has redesigned for functionality in the past. Nope not buying it and all you out there shouldn't buy into it either. Simple marketing hype.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

monogod said:


> ... :lol:
> 
> speaking from strictly a medical standpoint this is a reckless assumption because it assumes facts not in evidence."
> 
> ...


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

[Qdelete


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> now to end this I will tell all the true underlying reason why the OP has knee pain. The real reason is simply a self fulfilling prophecy. After all he "KNOWS" he has his mothers knees so his destiny is to fulfill that knowing with bad knees. Once he KNOWS he has found a solution his knee pain will disappear and not return unless he believes that it will. This is it the true reason for his pain. Nothing else matters...


what a load of crap.

aside from stating the obvious in regard to the above i wont respond to your latest round of mangled posts and nonsensical gibberish so that you may have the last word. maybe now you can drop it.


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## EDDIE JONES (Mar 26, 2005)

I don't know if Monogod is a medical god but I moved my cleat even further back than before on Sunday's ride and I experienced absolutely no pain nor did I have soreness the next day. Thanks for the tip Monogod!


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> ~snipped~


you may have the last word. maybe now you can drop it.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

EDDIE JONES said:


> I don't know if Monogod is a medical god but I moved my cleat even further back than before on Sunday's ride and I experienced absolutely no pain nor did I have soreness the next day. Thanks for the tip Monogod!


no prob eddie. glad you got some relief! :thumbsup:


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## Timeless (Mar 23, 2007)

Rounder, I am a little short on time and I would of posted early but my focus has been on school.

My knee pain is not something that cronic so to speak. Right now for the most part it feels fine. Only part that hurts is bruise I put on there on wed wen I bashed it into the couch. 

Pain comes and goes just it is becoming more often. Do not think I just assumed because my mom knees are bad that I figure i would have them. No it took me years to come to that conclusion. My left knee mainly as had the hurt like hell from time to time for years and during quite a few of those times it was not because I was biking. Hell I did not even sit on a bike for 3 years.

Most of your post seem to just be going against monogod and he explaining science. Most of you post on it seem to be pick here and there from mine. monogod is using a long list of my post that i been making.

Also I might like to point out that I when I walk my feet are not toed in or toed out but pointed fairly straight forward. 

Also rounder based on your last post you seem to think all science does is steal. Guess what they take what coaches and trainers do and make it better. Trainers can not see why ti works so it leaves guess work. Science looks at it and fines tunes it. Ever wonder why in the word sports the countries that can put a huge amount of money into science and studying athletes win the most. It is because the science side looks at what the best possible way of doing something is. Trainers guess about where it is.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

Timeless said:


> Rounder, I am a little short on time and I would of posted early but my focus has been on school.
> 
> My knee pain is not something that cronic so to speak. Right now for the most part it feels fine. Only part that hurts is bruise I put on there on wed wen I bashed it into the couch.
> 
> ...


 Of course it took years to determine you have your moms knees but... would you have the problem had the seed never been planted? Hmmm should make you wonder a little bit.

for your concerns I would like to address that I believe a little rest and having your positioned checked over on the bike is in order. Whenever someone starts to stress the knee it is always a good idea to eliminate the stresser involved. Now I know some of what I posted can seem a little misleading and sort of attacking towards Monogod but let me tell you why. As someone in or going into the field of sports medicine he mush be held more accountable for the things he posts than someone who posts about a remedie that happened to work for him. As soon as he started posting about Body Geometry shoes and orthotics he crushed his credibility. Not to mention arguing with Berkely who stated a well educated opinion that was safe and very accountable. My pointing this out fueled a fire in him. So I spent some time trying to get through to him that his remarks towards Berkley were uncalled for and also tried to show him how unaccountable he was being. It did not work. Now should you choose to follow his advice... that will cost you money and may or may not work. Unless I am mistaken you are on a limited budget. Lets get you into something that will work for free. I do agree and have stated such that strengthening the musculature that tracks your knee and a few stretches are in order. The ONLY thing I do not agree with is orthotics. Heres why... Orthotics will not solve the underlying issue of why you get pain. You will spend money on something that has a very low success rate. Another poster actually told you his experience with orthotics and how he has learned to follow the advice to strengthen his musculature and his knee pain is finally alleviating. Knee pain is nothing to be taken lightly so the wrong prescription could drastically exasperbate your condition. So here we come to Body Geometry shoes. The idea behind these shoes is to tilt you foot outward to correct a common tendency for people to pronate inward. To align the knee better and help avoid pain. Problem is they very rarely work. If you need more or less of a variance then the shoes are worthless to you. Neither Monogod nor myself can set you up over the internet to make sure you knee tracks straight. Therefore neither he nor myself should be recommending shoes or orthotics without actually physically seeing you pedal your bike and assessing your setup. Also the whole cronic pain issue. If you develop the same type of pain regularly then the PROBLEM is chronic. For simplicity sake I will put the stress you put on your knee in units. Your knee tracks incorrectly and when you put lets say 100 units of stress on it you get the pain. The pain then subsides. You go back to stressing your knee but for months or whatever you only put say 98 units of stress on it. No pain because you did not reach the point where it will start hurting. You still stressed the knee it just did not register as such because it was not overstressed. The root cause of the pain is there Chronically until you take measures to change it. When you move around your skeletal muscles support you as well as move you. The angle in which you feet are when walking and your footstrike are determined by the way these muscles are balanced between one another. I train athletes and when I do the 1st order is to make sure the muscles are as close to in perfect balance as I can get them. When I do this the trainees gate changes their knees track better and they become less prone to injuries. This goes for all joints but we are talking bout your knees here. I know with 12 years experience that re- balancing skeletal muscle is will cure all kinds of knee and joint pain.

Now you say you walk with a foward facing foot. Ok know when you lie down and relax your legs and feet what happens? Do they stay upright with the outer part of you foot at a 90 deg. angle to the ground. If not then there you go.(don't worry very rarely does someones feet stay upright) Your knee pain is correctable through strengthening and stretching. IT band stretches, yoga, Pillates, and a little work with weights and you may be surprised at how strong and capable your joints really are.

Now do I hate science and is it all bad... of course not. But I know better than to reccomend some product to a stranger that only works in very limited conditions. I also know that for the most part science simply tries to explain why and does not get to the root cause of most things. I tried to give the example of diet ideas but that did not work so let me explain. For every diet book out there you will find the author to point to numerous "scientific" studys that explain why their ideas are right. Funny how an author that has ideas in polar opposition to that author can also find "scientific" studies that prove he/she is right. So which one is right? Hmmm kinda gets the brain thinking I hope. Relying on a scientific study sponsored by the company that sells the product just screams conspiracy. You can not trust a study founded by someone that is trying to sell you something. This is rampant all over the place as I stated in another post... Science sells. So there you have it if you choose to walk down the valley of buy my shoes or orthotics and all will be well then go ahead. In the end 95 % of the time you'll only end up unsatisfied and more broke than before.


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## Timeless (Mar 23, 2007)

rounder said:


> Of course it took years to determine you have your moms knees but... would you have the problem had the seed never been planted? Hmmm should make you wonder a little bit.


tell you the truth yes I would have the problem because my knees started bothering me before I even knew about my moms knees. It was only when I started complaining about my knees to my mom did I learn her knees where bad. So yeah knee was already bothering me before I knew so the seed never was planet. Plus I do not think much of it until it started hurting.

As for my foot resting it only slightly off 90 degrees (hell the left one is more vertical than the right one)
As for resting I normally only ride maybe every 3 days and quite often longer so it not like I am really over working my knees. Plus when my knees really hurts I do not tend to ride because it hurts.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

Timeless said:


> tell you the truth yes I would have the problem because my knees started bothering me before I even knew about my moms knees. It was only when I started complaining about my knees to my mom did I learn her knees where bad. So yeah knee was already bothering me before I knew so the seed never was planet. Plus I do not think much of it until it started hurting.
> 
> As for my foot resting it only slightly off 90 degrees (hell the left one is more vertical than the right one)
> As for resting I normally only ride maybe every 3 days and quite often longer so it not like I am really over working my knees. Plus when my knees really hurts I do not tend to ride because it hurts.


 how old were you when the pain was first discovered and what were you doing to cause it?
Now that you are actively participating, Is you cleat set up in the position described earlier and is it set up so that when clicked in your feet are at the same angle as the resting test. If not do your best to do so. A niceway to do this would be to get on your saddle in your cycling position and relax the leg as much as you can to see how you foot angles. Each foot may be different so try to adjust accordingly. 2nd question will be saddle height. If someone were to view you from the side with your leg fully straight but you not at all shifting your weight to that side is your foot level to the ground? If not get your saddle to that height. Now we can work from there. Also want to add that your left knee is the one causing you pain for the most part I believe so have you checked for a possible leg length discrepancy. small little changes can help in a big way. If we can adjust your setup a little and get you going without pain then you will be well on your way to better knees. I still suggest IT stretching and perhaps seek out a yoga or pilates instructor to help strengthen the area so that you can develop more of a tolerance to stress and do even more with your knees staying out of pain.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> Actually you should be thanking all the trainers and coaches who put their athletes cleats in that position for years. If it wasn't trainers and coaches constant experimentation and coming up with a better way science would have nothing to test out, steal, and adopt as their own. So your welcome.


talk about an ego-fricking-maniac...


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## EDDIE JONES (Mar 26, 2005)

They won't leave you alone, eh, Monogod?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

EDDIE JONES said:


> They won't leave you alone, eh, Monogod?


_"great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."_ albert einstein.

:thumbsup:


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> At least I didn't put someones sarcastic comment as a signature.  You did know it was sarcastic ...right.


thats part of the joke... doofus. ut:


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> then quit opposing me


as usual in this thread you have it all backwards

now back under your bridge little troll...


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> ~snipped~


you know, i was going to respond with a snappy little response and best you yet again but then i realized that would simply be feeding the troll. as ive repeatedly told you, i dont wish to do that. i gave you the opportunity to have the last word and let it go but you still keep trolling for an argument and striving to make it personal.

its really sad that you are unable to have an adult discussion and lack the maturity to be able to disagree agreeably.

fyi... youre making a colossal ass of yourself.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> Ok then. it seems you do not have the ability to add anything pertinent to the subject of the OP's concern. I can understand that. maybe once you get some more education under your belt. And again with the name calling. well If in your eyes I am an ass then that is fine with me. My feelings are not hurt by your opinion. Also this has never been a competition so I have no idea how you ever bested me at anything. I have not learned a thing from anything you have put in any of your posts. you have failed to show any concrete evidence that supports anything that you have posted that myself or Berkeley disagree with. I am all for learning something new and If you can teach me something then your knowlege has " bested" mine. until then I'm afraid you are in a world of illusionary proportion.


</>


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> He keeps setting personal attacks on myself and Berkeley.


anyone who's actually read the thread will be calling b.s. on this one. anyone with a background in psych will identify this as a textbook example of projection.



rounder said:


> We just wanted to clear up some information and add a professional opinion.


neither of you "cleared up" anything. like it or not, i am a professional in the field so neither of you did anything more than simply offer ANOTHER professional opinion, and then you got very pissy when i disagreed with you and stated why.

in fact, go back through the thread and youll notice that someone (i.e. you) started making personal insults, being rude, and acting like a troll because someone (i.e. me) wouldnt agree with them (i.e. you). very early on you attempted to make this "you vs. me" and have insisted upon doing so ever since.

despite being a member for several years you are a noob when it comes to posting, as your post count clearly shows. if you wish to participate on interweb forums i would suggest that you toughen up your skin a little and be able to agree to disagree in a mature manner, and not take as a personal insult when people disagree with you.

in fact, youre so sure that youre right and everyone else is wrong that even when the op tells you youre not listening to him and that youre wrong about your assumptions THATS not even good enough for you and you STILL insist youre right. ut:

rule number one.... LISTEN to the patient/client.

rule number two.... assume NOTHING.



rounder said:


> also good to see cleat placement and a change in float helped out your knees. Did you pay someone to fit you into your previous position? If so i'd be like.. hey what's up with this.


if he would have been a paying client of mine then yes, he would have paid for the advice and fitting that got him RELIEF from his pain. thanks to the interweb, he got it for free.

oh, and btw, its not name calling to say youre making a colossal ass of yourself or to identify your behavior as trollish. that addresses BEHAVIOR and is not a personal attack, unlike derogatory remarks you continually direct my way.

speaking of that, you disregard the years of experience i have in the field of sports med/physiology and mentioned that something would happen when i get more formal education in the field and implied it would be that i would see the light that you were correct all along and are the supreme mind in cycling physiology. just to clear up what will happen when i do complete my formal education its called "getting a doctorate degree" not "realizing rounder was right on some interweb forum a year or two ago". and when that happens my title will then be "dr." will yours will still be "troll". :thumbsup:

heck, as im also pursuing a doctorate in psychology (albeit at a much more relaxed pace) i may even mention you in both of my dissertations!*

have a nice day, im done wasting time with you.

* in sports physiology as an example of how NOT to listen to a patient/client and to make wild, errant assumptions devoid of fact.

in psychology, well, there are just too many pathologies to choose from...


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

To the Op: the primary muscles involved it your circular pedal stroke are the Muscles of the posterior chain. Your glutes, hamstrings,adductors. Secondary is your quads. Most people get this wrong but the quads only turn on from 2-6 o'clock in your stroke where the posterior chain fires for the complete revolution. You do have a discrepancy between your legs that if not addressed can infact cause your left knee pain.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

todays lesson, boys and girls, is entitled *"how to use the interweb to make a total and complete ass of yourself."*

we have a subject who has volunteered to give us a thorough and complete demonstration, so lets not waste any time here and jump right in....



anonymous test subject said:


> you are a professional who works as a nurse ?(don't see the connection.)


here we see an example of the posters inability to hold a complex thought. this is a great way to prove youre an idiot. for one thing, a nurse IS a professional in the medical field. for another, the individual whom this little troll is attempting so earnestly, though in vain, to denigrate and slander has previously explained that he works not only in a bike shop, but also in sports and lifestyle medicine in addition to nursing.



anonymous test subject said:


> And now you are a psychology major and a physiology and a nutritionist major and blah blah.


next, boys and girls, we see a perfect example of the error of assumption, which is a favorite of this particular subject. here the poster assumes that (possibly like him???) everyone has no formal education. what the irate antagonist does not realize is that in addition to currently pursuing the degrees in question the target of his rage has spent the last 15+ years pursuing formal education in several disciplines (including degrees and certificates in some) including law, psychology; counseling/therapy (specializing in crisis/stress management and chemical dependency counseling); and nutrition.

rule number two is... assume NOTHING. ignore it. pretend it doesnt exist. wild assumptions and accusations are YOUR ticket to being the biggest troll and making the biggest ass of yourself possible. its a powerful weapon, so just as our subject demonstrates be sure to use it often and as irresponsibly as you possibly can.



anonymous test subject said:


> A student is a student not a professional.


next kiddos, we again see not only the error of assumption but here the poster also demonstrates very poor reading comprehension/retention. WHAT A KNOCKOUT COMBO!!! :thumbsup: (i hope youre taking notes)

earlier in this thread the object of this troll's venom explained that although he had professional experience in sports medicine and nutrition he was seeking advanced degrees in each _in order to be able to *prescribe *both activities and nutrition_ in keeping with his holistic approach to wellness.



anonymous test subject said:


> Projection yup thats what you want to call it. I believe the whole reason I started in this discussion was you were "projecting" yourself upon Berkeley.


pay close attention here students, this is a particularly effective method of how to make an ass out of yourself.

here the subject lashes out but really has no idea what he is actually lashing out at and in an unsuccessful attempt to appear intelligent he demonstrates he really has no idea what projection is. if you really want to make an ass out of yourself there are few better ways than mis-using something someone else says in an attempt to seem intelligent!

"projection" is a defense mechanism wherein one attributes his own unacceptable thoughts, actions, emotions, and character defects upon someone else. it is not when one has a discussion with someone, or disagrees with someone on an interweb forum. projection is, however, very commonly used in people with antisocial personality disorder (a.p.d.) and narcissistic personality disorder (n.p.d.). the awesome irony here is that our poster has shamelessly demonstrated symptoms of both repeatedly.

this method is a guaranteed grand slam... what a genius! how exciting to watch a pro at work!



anonymous test subject said:


> An where have I attacked you personally?? Yes I do use strong words that may be taken the wrong way by someone who is overly sensitive and has an Inferiority complex. I figured you had a little back bone. sorry I was wrong about that.


pay attention class, this is a very important lesson indeed. not only does the subject deny that he has ever personally attacked the individual to whom he is speaking (a blatant lie which others in the thread have even called him on), but he goes on to personally attack him again while denying he engages in this type of behavior. wow! the lunacy!

not only is the subject a prodigy by perfecting this method he also tries to feign knowledge in psychology by blaming the recipient of his verbal attacks for being weak by basically saying "its not my fault for personally attacking you, its your fault for being weak." this is such a tragic, pellucid attempt at rationalization/justification that it almost transcends description.

he also fails to understand that someone with an inferiority complex has to prove to everyone that he is right, and is unable to simply agree to disagree. this person is unable to have a mature discussion of opposing points of view without anger, ire, bile or personal attacks and then agree to disagree amicably if neither side capitulates; but rather has strives to draw others to his side, for this validates his soft, weak, fragile, inferior self esteem.

instead he has to lash out at those who disagree with him. he feels he has to discredit the individual for then whatever the individual says will, by default, be discredited as well. this is also very commonly found in those with a.p.d. and n.p.d.

yes class, this we have seen from this individual time and time again despite the target of his ire stating clearly and simply that he holds certain opinions and then states why he holds them and asking him to behave as an adult and cease and desist with the personal attacks.

not content with status quo, our subject seems to be going for an all out record!!!!



anonymous test subject said:


> Now I suggest you add literature to your host of degrees because you need to practice up on your reading skills.


hey kiddos, what luck! now pay close attention because this is an awesome way to make an ass out of yourself.

if youre going to use something (especially as an insult) be sure to use it INcorrectly. notice the fine work our subject does by once again demonstrating ignorance of the formal education system by blathering that literature is the study of language and words when in fact anyone who took high school english understands that the study of language and words is theoretical linguistics and lexicology. literature, as the edjumacated peoples knows, is the study of existing bodies of works in part and in whole and their impact on both the society and culture at the time of writing as well as through the years up to and including present day.

take note of this example boys and girls be sure to incorporate this into your repertoire if you want to be perceived as an utter tard.



> ~repetitive gibberish snipped~


this was a great example... just blather on mindlessly and incoherently and repeat your case... YET AGAIN!

like our subject you must INSIST you are right! like him you must justify your position and rationalize any poor behavior and blame it on those whom youre attacking and insulting. you MUST perfect this technique (its like our subject wrote the book!) before you can ever truly be considered a web troll and anything other than a common idiot. dont be scared... take it to the next level! :thumbsup:



anonymous test subject said:


> One more thing there Monogod...Are doctors the #1 or #2 leading cause of death in this country?? I forget which one it is.


lastly class, not content to be perceived as a garden variety idiot the subject brilliantly finishes his opus with a statement which demonstrates profound and utter ignorance and completely removes any doubt any may have had that he is a total fugtard.

this guy is a maestro, a virtuoso to finish his tirade with such an asinine statement. leaving absolutely no doubt whatsoever in anyones mind that he is BEYOND an idiot our subject makes it clear that he doesnt know the difference between someone who holds am m.d. who can practice general medicine and someone who holds a doctorate resultant to completion of a program and/or curriculum in a specified discipline.

in a move that shows why he is the king, our subject attempted an insult as the result of the object of his unfounded and misplaced vitriol mentioning that he would have the title of "doctor" bestowed upon him at the time his formal education in this discipline was finished. as a double bonus he went on to tell our subject that he would still simply be called a troll, and boy did our subject do nothing but prove the object of his ire correct. OUTSTANDING WORK!

going above and beyond the call of duty, our subject repeatedly inserts his foot into his mouth (a difficult feat considering his cranium is already inserted well into his rectum) by rampant assumptions in place of facts. in this final example of brilliant idiocy our subject errantly assumes that the target of his acrimonious tirades believes and supports the general m.o. of modern medicine which focuses on secondary and tertiary prevention rather than primary; and blindly focuses on drugs and surgery while virtually ignoring lifestyle and holistic measures for primary, secondary, and tertiary care.

remember to ALWAYS avoid rule number 2 which is.... assume NOTHING. make wild, unfounded assumptions. repeat them as your mantra. refuse to believe anyone, even if it is the op, that you are mistaken in any way, shape or form and you will be on the path to true trollhood.

well boys and girls, that concludes todays lesson. i hope you were taking notes, because if your desire is to proudly display profound ignorance and disturbing psychological disorders you literally have the road map for its accomplishment right at your finger tips. how fortunate we were to have a subject willing to demonstrate a symphony of dysfunction to set the standard for us.

follow in the steps of our subject here, and you too (like him before you) can be awarded the designation that all web trolls dream of and strive so hard for...


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

My God, how long did you spend writing that?
_
(The rest of this is not directed at you in particular, Monogod)_

Thank goodness for the "unsusbscribe" feature. I an kicking myself for not using it sooner. I don't want to spend my time reading over these useless pissing matches, but when the email pops into my inbox with the lasted rantings from this thread and the gem about vegans, its like a bad reality show. Curiosity gets the better of me and I can't control the urge to watch the trainwreck. I'm weak, I know. What's worse is that I let myself get sucked in on occasion.

You all do what you want, but I've read plenty of good advice/input from all of you guys (OK, not everyone, but most of you), and it would be a shame for all of your energy and time to go into urinating on each other, and not sharing what you know and think about riding and related issues. I get caught up in this myself now and then, so I know what a temptation it can be, and also what a true waist of time it is.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

kapusta said:


> My God, how long did you spend writing that?[/qouote]
> _
> (The rest of this is not directed at you in particular, Monogod)_
> 
> ...


took about 10 minutes or so. i type fairly quickly. and yeah, i get sucked in on occasion too cuz i have a weakness for the trolls, but thats ok. take the good with the bad and for the most part resist, but sometimes the troll just begs for it.

we were sitting here reading his douchebag rants and in abject disbelieve that someone could so be so blatantly incorrect and not even understand what he was talking about all the while squealing about being such a knowledgeable expert. then someone made a funny comment about how every time this guy opens his mouth he sticks his foot farther and farther in it* and someone else on how he was a textbook example of how to be an ass clown troll on an interweb forum and it kind of snowballed from there. we all got a good laugh out of it so its all good.

*despite his head already being up his can


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> I thought you were done with me. I'm so impressed with your assumptive diagnosis of me. Amazing. You can spend all day and lots of energy projecting your shortcommings on me. It does not bother me at all. I am loaded with confidence and have a flawless life I get to live out everyday. I am so sorry you were beotch slapped around here but if you showed some respect for people who are more knowledgable and experienced in the field than you then this would not have happened. Sell crazy elsewhere.


i couldnt sell crazy here if i wanted to, cuz youve got that market covered.

actually i have and show respect for those more knowledgeable and experienced in ANY field than i, hence my attitude towards you.



rounder said:


> by the way I ran across your picture in the single speed forum. I know you will take this the wrong way but if you like I'll be happy to work with you on your diet to erase those love handles of yours. Also I can come up with a nice plan for you to balance out your underdeveloped posterior chain and provide more balance and symmetry to your upper body. Let me know if I can help.


well rounder, if any of that were true i must say that based on your past input on this thread i doubt you would be be able to come up with a nice plan and/or provide the proper information and mechanics for wiping my bung much less properly and accurately diagnosing any other deficiency. besides, one of the perks about being in medicine is forming friendships and working with sports orthos who are, unlike you, actually knowledgeable in the field. so no offense, but ill defer to them.

to be honest i dunno what picture you dug up from your trolling around, but if they had lovies it wasnt me. just so happens im vegan and lean. 

dont feel bad though, its not a total loss. at least your spelling was better in this post. :thumbsup:


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> HAHAHAHAH I have had an absolute blast messing with you for the last few days. You even got friends involved and took everything oh so seriously.:thumbsup:
> 
> Interesting though... Show me what is blatantly incorrect. I'll be interested in this one.


youre so cute... you try so hard to be right but just cant quite pull it off. i didnt get my friends involved, those to whom i referred are members of the forum as well and they were laughing at you and talking about what a putz you are. they actually told me the same thing kapusta did which was to stop wasting time feeding the troll. oh well, admitting i have a problem with it is the first step to recovery... :lol:

oh, and dont worry... no one is taking you seriously.

in response to all the gibberish that you edited into your post after i responded to it i have a few words for you... "paragraphs". "coherent thought". neither of these seem to be strengths of yours.

i wont address any of it so that you may have the last word and maybe finally stfu. (not holding my breath on that one...)


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> see here once I saw that you take someones who disagrees with your opinions personally I knew it was game on this guy is gonna be fun.:thumbsup:


along with coherent thought we now see that sarcasm also escapes you... 

read the next post and youll see that berkeley got the joke with no prob.

you are, without a doubt, the best validation ever of my sig...


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

delete


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> I'm not screwing with you I have been playing you here the whole time:thumbsup:


of course you were, little troll. of course you were.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> thats part of the joke... doofus. ut:


That was fun there. You even called me a doofus. Not at all an ego maniac just knew that this would get under your skin


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## noshortcuts (Nov 29, 2005)

*Two Peas in a Pod*

You guys should have your own thread. 

Boy do I feel sorry for the OP or anyone looking here for knee pain relief. Now they can add a huge headache to their pains. :madman:


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

noshortcuts said:


> You guys should have your own thread.
> 
> Boy do I feel sorry for the OP or anyone looking here for knee pain relief. Now they can add a huge headache to their pains. :madman:


I totally agree with you. Feeding him was so fun. smiling from ear to ear on this. I'm gonna go back and delete all that does not pertain to the OP problem from my side of things. Anyway sorry I messed with you monogod but I just felt I had to. You fed the troll and the feeding was good.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

*all gone*

I have deleted all the crap and all that is left is the pertinent solution to the OP problem with knee pain. Now if Monogod does the same this thread will be one of the most informative threads on this site.
Monogod(in a beer commercial way) I love ya man.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

I want to close something out here so everyone involved knows or understands. All those little attack on monogod were deliberate but not actually meant. Yes I have been playing him a bit and I know what I said to him and why. 

Now to what my point really is. In this thread Monogod had thrown in 3 digs in 3 seperate posts towards Berkeley Whenever he disagreed with Monos ideas. Well I think we all can agree that none of us feels we should be disrespected simply because we have a different view. My second problem with monogod comes from his irresponsibility.
Monogod took on this thread as an expert in the field. As such he has the ability to guide people to his ways of thinking. This is great power and with great power comes great responsibility. I have no dispute whatsoever that monogod knows his stuff. But he made a critical error that I showed him and he chose to duck the issue and go on an attack. I played along and it was fun. Now it is time to disclose once and for all this great irresponsibility. Monogod Prescribed orthotics and various wedge shoes without ever do an examination on the Person with knee pain. BIG BOOBOO.:nono: If he was a Doctor this could be deemed as malpractice. He used his expertice to guide someone down a path that could cause serious damage to the OP. Now monogod should you choose to read this I still am asking you how you think you can prescribe orthotics to someone over the internet? You can not without being irresponsible on your part. You are held more accountable than others for your words because of your education and this is why I got into it with you . your refusal to acknowledge my post on the matter infuriates me in that you need to recognize your actions and not be picking fights with someone who disagrees with you. You owe it to the people who have read this forum to let them know you were irresponsible to do this. You are more than welcome to talk of orthotic and their benefits and even advise someone to seek out a professional who can examine them and then prescribe them but don't ever prescribe them yourself. If you respond in any way other than I see what you mean then you need to stop posting for the safety of us all. You are very knowledgable but you need to recognize that you are accountable and admit when you are wrong.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I have been sick for the last few days*

Some pub food really did me in. So now I'm back from the death bed and you guys are still going at it. It reminds me of Jane Curtin and Dan Akroyd: "Jane, you stupid ****..."


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## ArmySlowRdr (Dec 19, 2003)

whut? **** is a banned word? you gotta be kidding. almost as bad as the mods moving relevant threads out of general.

back to amused, lurker status now.



Berkeley Mike said:


> Some pub food really did me in. So now I'm back from the death bed and you guys are still going at it. It reminds me of Jane Curtin and Dan Akroyd: "Jane, you stupid ****..."


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Some pub food really did me in. So now I'm back from the death bed and you guys are still going at it. It reminds me of Jane Curtin and Dan Akroyd: "Jane, you stupid ****..."


I'm trying to keep this open till he graduates.  Really were not going at it anymore. I doubt he will admit his error and appologize to you. God I was being such a troll but it was good.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

ArmySlowRdr said:


> whut? **** is a banned word? you gotta be kidding. almost as bad as the mods moving relevant threads out of general.
> 
> back to amused, lurker status now.


Did they move something out I did not know I want to put this up as a stickie How to troll someone crazy. Glad you were amused.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> God I was being such a troll.


see? there is something we can agree on. :thumbsup:


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> see? there is something we can agree on. :thumbsup:


 From your lack of response to page six#2 we can also agree that your not man enough to admit to your error and appologize :thumbsup:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> From your lack of response to page six#2 we can also agree that your not man enough to admit to your error and appologize :thumbsup:


im going riding now, but if you want i will respond to that tripe later tonight.


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## unstuckpilgrim (Nov 29, 2005)

I have been reading this thread first as a source of entertainment and finally as a wealth of information. I find rounder's ideas on muscular imbalance fascinating and would be interested in some specific exercises.

First some information on my case. I do walk duck-footed. While in the military I would spend quite a bit of time lifting weights at sea since there is not much else to do. While I Could squat nearly 700lbs, I could hardly do leg curls(hamstrings) with like 40lbs of plates. This leads me to believe that I do have some kind of imbalance and I have pondered before on its relevance to my specific gait.

Fast forward to this year. I have been racing cross country events all year near an expert pace on my single speed. I've done pretty well(albeit inconsistent) and I am more fit than I have ever been. I'm now 34. About half way through this season I picked up some S-works BG shoes upgrading from my 5 year old entry level Shimano shoes. Since then, and on an intermittent basis I have had problems with my left knee. The pain comes only after I have gone hard for at least 10 miles and is lateral and behind the kneecap. It is bad enough to have caused one dnf and several terrible finishes. To be honest I was starting to think I couldn't race with an SS anymore. Before someone else mentions it, I have considered that the shoes have nothing to do with it. Perhaps I was just putting more force on the joints as fitness and power increased through the season.

This thread has given me some hope that there may be a simple explanation to my situation, one that I may have even known all along. Rounder if you have any helpful advice I would appreciate it. IMHO Monogod lost all his credibility when he began name calling and reaching for the extremes of logic to attempt to discredit other's views. That is a shame since he seems quite knowledgeable. One would think though with all that schooling capitalization and punctuation would have been covered somewhere.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

unstuckpilgrim said:


> I have been reading this thread first as a source of entertainment and finally as a wealth of information. I find rounder's ideas on muscular imbalance fascinating and would be interested in some specific exercises.
> 
> First some information on my case. I do walk duck-footed. While in the military I would spend quite a bit of time lifting weights at sea since there is not much else to do. While I Could squat nearly 700lbs, I could hardly do leg curls(hamstrings) with like 40lbs of plates. This leads me to believe that I do have some kind of imbalance and I have pondered before on its relevance to my specific gait.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the support and I would think about dumping the shoes. Body Geometry has a varius wedge that changes your foot from sitting level on the pedal to having the inner portion sit at a higher point than the outer on an angle. More people I know have had problems with this causing pain than helping it. Now to help with imbalance issues in the legs you simple need to put less stress on the quads and more on the posterior chain in your workouts. These are your power muscles and when you bring them up incredible leaps in athletic performance will be realized. Great exercises are the power clean, dumbell snatch, glute/ham raises (Very humbling) , romanian deadlift both one and two legged,(I love one legged romanian deadlifts) and a properly done deadlift. drop the squats and direct quad work until your posterior chain strength improves to the point where your feet point foward (you'll end up walking like a football player if you know what I mean) Also check to make sure your hips are not tilting foward. It's called an anterior pelvic tilt and is a real powersapper. If your belt angles down while looking at yourself standing from the side the you have an APT.


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## unstuckpilgrim (Nov 29, 2005)

rounder said:


> If your belt angles down while looking at yourself standing from the side the you have an APT.


Indeed it does. Makes it look as though I have a bit of a belly when I really don't. What does this mean?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> varius wedge


keep trying, youre almost there.

its "varus" wedge. as in the opposite of valgus.

good luck with resolving your pain pilgrim, rounder is actually dispensing some helpful information this time with the exercises and stretches. :thumbsup:

see rounder, ive got no problem giving you credit where its due just as i have no problem calling b.s. on your b.s.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

unstuckpilgrim said:


> Indeed it does. Makes it look as though I have a bit of a belly when I really don't. What does this mean?


 Anterior pelvic tilt http://exercise.about.com/cs/abs/a/coreandposture_2.htm


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> keep trying, youre almost there.
> 
> its "varus" wedge. as in the opposite of valgus.
> 
> ...


sorry for the typo ...varus


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## unstuckpilgrim (Nov 29, 2005)

Thank you much. One last question. What is your profession and where can I locate someone in my area that does what you do and does it well? I'm in Madison, WI


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

unstuckpilgrim said:


> Thank you much. One last question. What is your profession and where can I locate someone in my area that does what you do and does it well? I'm in Madison, WI


 look for a strength and conditioning coach try the University of Wisconsin May be able to find someone there or an intern to help you out.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

let me add this stretch for pelvic tilt. It's often not found on sites but is my favorite and tends to produce the best results to fix your anterior pelvic tilt. It's an Illiopsoas stretch
(sprint start) for best results keep the back flat and put the foward leg outside both arms not inbetween them as depicted in the photo.


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## nagatahawk (Jun 20, 2007)

*Froggies Report*

This is a follow up from last week.
I installed the froggies on my road bike, on my first ride i limited it to 20 miles, Rt knee still has pain.
second ride next day I did a 40 miler, felt much better on the return loop. knees getting better. the bike path had been wash over in places from the rain. the froggies got a little stickie. There are instructions on how to lube them for wet or dirt riding.

tommorrow I'll do a 50 miler. I hope.

I love the Froggies. no stress to the knees when uncipping, you just step out.

on the mt. bike I'll be going to platforms with egg beaters.

good luck to everyone else with bad knees.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

nagatahawk said:


> This is a follow up from last week.
> I installed the froggies on my road bike, on my first ride i limited it to 20 miles, Rt knee still has pain.
> second ride next day I did a 40 miler, felt much better on the return loop. knees getting better. the bike path had been wash over in places from the rain. the froggies got a little stickie. There are instructions on how to lube them for wet or dirt riding.
> 
> ...


I looooooove my frogs on my mountain bike. I think what I like the most is the way, like you said, you just step up with no spring to overcome.


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## JointMD (Oct 8, 2007)

This thread was brought to my attention by a P.T. who is an an acquaintance, and he asked that I give him feedback as to what I thought about the information contained within. 

Let me begin by saying that I am a board certified orthopedic surgeon specializing in sports injuries so I believe that I am more than qualified to share input.

Because of the length of thread and the amount of time my practice demands it has taken me some time to read through it in its entirety. After reading the posts I elected to join the forum and respond publicly rather than simply supply feedback to my friend verbally. I will keep my comments short and to the point. 

First of all, to the original poster, your condition does not seem to be overuse syndrome but is most likely simply a physiological misalignment or anomaly as Monogod has previously stated. In fact, there is really nothing that I would add to the advice he gave.

Rounder, almost all of the information you provided was erroneous. While I am unsure of where you overheard someone talking about the posterior chain you clearly have very little comprehension, working knowledge, or understanding of it. The forum would be wise to disregard any of your posts which are medical in nature. 

It concerns me very much that you would be presenting yourself as a medical authority and providing the information that you did. It also concerns me that people are taking your advice, but Barnum was right on the mark when he said there's a sucker born every minute. To the layman you sound like an authority, but to any medical professional you clearly have little workable or usable knowledge in this area. You would do well to carefully read and learn from the posts of Monogod rather than insulting him and trying to make yourself look good. He clearly is an excellent resource for information and knows what he is talking about. Much of the advice he gave is the same that I myself would have.

While I certainly do not wish to get in the middle of the pissing match between you two I would like to point out that it was you who insulted and attacked him first, and he asked you numerous times to not take it to a personal level and to stick to the topic at hand. It was very clear that you wanted to be seen as the authority on the matter and disliked very much his input and correction of your errors and personally attacked him as a result. And yes, he did correct your errors.

You claimed you were pointing out his errors and demanded an apology and admission he was wrong when it was YOU who were wrong and it is YOU who owe him and the entire forum an apology. 

This is all I will say regarding this matter, and unlike Monogod I will not waste time arguing with you and have nothing more to say to you since conversing with you is clearly a waste of time.

Monogod, you gave some excellent advice and were right on the mark. You clearly are knowledgeable and have a passion for what you do and I commend you for it. However, I would strongly advise you not to argue with people or to sink to their level and trade insults. I would also encourage you to continue on with your planned course of studies and eventual goals of practice and don't worry about uninformed, uneducated people who argue and disagree with you. It will not change. After years of specialization and practice I still encounter the same thing. Get used to it.

If you are interested we have a scholarship program in exchange for a time commitment of practice with our group, and I would be interested in talking with you further. You seem to have an excellent working knowledge, patient and triage skills, and we are always looking for bright, passionate, skillful team members in our group. I will send you my email address through private message.

I would, however, encourage you not to waste time as you do by arguing with people on this or any other issue. It only serves to discredit you, and there is no gain. Spend your time productively rather than wasting it arguing with people who clearly have no idea what they are talking about or who personally attack you, regardless of why they attack you. Life is too short to waste on the idiots.

Have a nice day all.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

JointMD said:


> This thread was brought to my attention by a P.T. who is an an acquaintance, and he asked that I give him feedback as to what I thought about the information contained within.
> 
> Let me begin by saying that I am a board certified orthopedic surgeon specializing in sports injuries so I believe that I am more than qualified to share input.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input.

Stick to the medical advice part. If you are who you claim then this is an area in which you are quite qualified to give advice, and people (including myself) will consider what you say seriously.

As far as your advice/observations of peoples' _conduct and tone_, I have to chuckle at some of your comments, being myself quite familiar with all involved. Your comments could give one the impression that you are, in fact, a second MTBR identity for an already well known entity around here.

Again, thanks for taking the time to shed some more light on this subject, and resurrecting this dead horse for further beating. Perhaps it will surpass the Vegan thread, but one can only hope.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

JointMD said:


> This thread was brought to my attention by a P.T. who is an an acquaintance, and he asked that I give him feedback as to what I thought about the information contained within.
> 
> Let me begin by saying that I am a board certified orthopedic surgeon specializing in sports injuries so I believe that I am more than qualified to share input.
> 
> ...


bull you are not an orthopedic specialist. and you can not read as I never claimed to be a medical authority and only provided insite that there are physical alternatitives at work which may be the cause of said pain. I suggest going back to school and re learning all about the muscles involved in the process of joint alignment issues. If you think that someone can prescribe orthotics over the internet without physically looking at the patient then  Good luck trying to convince someone you are really who you say you are :nono:


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

kapusta said:


> Thanks for the input.
> 
> Stick to the medical advice part. If you are who you claim then this is an area in which you are quite qualified to give advice, and people (including myself) will consider what you say seriously.
> 
> ...


 I agree.... one is banned and come back as an alter ego.....priceless


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

rounder said:


> I agree.... one is banned and come back as an alter ego.....priceless


Monogod is banned? Why? I found he could be arrogant, but I never saw him be out of line. I must have missed what he did to get banned.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

kapusta said:


> Monogod is banned? Why? I found he could be arrogant, but I never saw him be out of line. I must have missed what he did to get banned.


 one could assume so.... he was involved in a thread (vegan) then poof he was gone never to be heard from again. I can only surmise, although something could have happened to him. I think he did rub some the wrong way and was very defensive (hence the reason I worked him so hard on this thread) too bad, I miss him...I haven't really posted much since.


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## TobyNobody (Mar 17, 2004)

Timeless: 

What you need to do is set up one cleat as Monogod suggests, and one cleat as Berkeley Mike suggests and report back here after a long ride .


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

TobyNobody said:


> Timeless:
> 
> What you need to do is set up one cleat as Monogod suggests, and one cleat as Berkeley Mike suggests and report back here after a long ride .


the position is the same actually ...communication break down at this point read on and you'll see:thumbsup:


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## DieselAndDust (Aug 28, 2007)

Here's my 2 cents on egg beaters since they where mentioned.

I had a set of eggbeaters... hated them!
Both sides of the egg beaters spring loaded clip bars are connected as one piece. See the picture below. What that means is that if you're riding along and your peddle happens to strike a rock or root as your on the down stroke of your peddling... the egg beater clip bars can open up and release your clipped in foot from the peddle. You won't realize your foot has become un-clipped until your on the upstroke and your leg goes flailing about like some idiot... loose you momentum or worse wreck.

I've had Speed Frogs, and I really liked them at first, but did seem to jam up with mud and tiny sticks a times. They have great float and mine felt like I was skating on ice. They did eliminate aches I had in my knees, because they allowed a more natural movement in my legs. They're worth a look.

But I now roll on TIME Peddles, they Rock!
Time have great float, there easy to clip in and clip out. And if you get any dirt in them it tends to just push right out when you clip in. I've got Time on all three of my present bikes and wouldn't consider anything else.


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## JointMD (Oct 8, 2007)

kapusta said:


> Thanks for the input.
> 
> Stick to the medical advice part. If you are who you claim then this is an area in which you are quite qualified to give advice, and people (including myself) will consider what you say seriously.
> 
> ...


I have not read the Vegan thread, nor will I, so I am unable to comment on that or even understand what you mean by including it here. Maybe it is an inside joke or something.

I am also not sure what you mean by "resurrecting this dead horse for further beating" since I didn't open the door for any further discussion. I simply commented on it from the standpoint of a sports orthopedist to clarify some things. My apologies if my response was not considered timely, but this thread had almost 150 posts in it when I was asked for my opinion on it. Not only did it take me a while to get around to even beginning to read the thread, but even longer to actually sift through it all. Originally I had not planned to join or comment on the board but simply give my opinion to my associate who asked I look it over and discuss it with him. After reading the thread, I felt it was my duty to clarify some things from a medical standpoint.

I hold a B.S. in biomechanics, a doctorate in both internal medicine and orthopedics, completed residency, completed specialty certification in sports orthopedics and requisite residency, and hold board certification in orthopedic surgery so you may take my commentary on the medical aspects of this thread seriously if you wish. But one needs no formal education to see that Rounder was acting like a complete ******* so I see no reason why that commentary is irrelevant.

I also do not see why you were quick to call me to task for commenting on his behavior and yet remained silent while he was acting like a shithead. But you're right, I do not personally know the individuals involved like you do so I'm sure you had your reasons. But I do know what I read, and I shared what was very clear to me after reading all the posts from all the individuals which was the fact that Rounder was being a dick. Looks like I may have made some enemies right off the bat by not giving him a pass on it like everyone else did, but that's life. Did you miss the fact that I had harsh words for Monogod as well?

From what you guys said Monogod doesn't post on here any more, and I can't say that I blame him if these are the kind of *******s he has to deal with when he is sharing information from areas he holds expertise in and trying to help others. If he is not posting because he is banned does anyone know how to contact him? I would like to speak with him personally.

I certainly won't waste any more of my time here other than with this post, and will certainly not waste it arguing with an ego maniacal idiot the way Monogod did in this thread, so it should be clear why I do not respond to all posts directed at me. I simply do not have the time to waste arguing with an uneducated hack who believes the science of cycling biomechanics is quackery and argues with those with far more education, knowledge, and experience in the field than he himself has all the time insisting that he is right and is "working" someone, as he called it.

He even admitted to being a troll, which I looked up the definition for and couldn't agree with more, and yet still people don't step up and confront him for being an *******? Well Rounder is an *******. Not simply because he offered his opinion, but because of the way he reacted when it was pointed out he was totally wrong. He even did it to me in response to calling him on his ******** and told me that I need to go back to school and get educated so that I can learn about the P.C. and realize that he was right all along. Keep in mind that he has no formal education in the field, holds no lower or advanced degrees in anything and still insists that he is right.

Well Sir, having spent the time to earn an undergrad and two doctorates as well as completing two residencies and earning board certification in orthopedic surgery I have damn well earned the right and have the experience in the field to say that I am not coming in here for a discussion but rather to sort out and clarify what is fact and what isn't and to state that Rounder is an ******* and an uneducated hack who doesn't know what he is talking about.

I've said what I have to say and will not argue with Rounder or anyone else on the subject and doubt I will post again because there would be no gain in it and it would settle nothing. If Rounder wishes to continue to personally attack me as he did to others who disagreed with him he is more than entitled to just as I was entitled to comment on him personally whether you, he, or anyone else is offended by it. Regarding my opinion on the comments and tone of those involved I only said what was obvious and what anyone with even the most modest intelligence was thinking.

As I said, I'm not here to officiate a pissing match and don't wish to get in the middle and am damn sure not going to argue with anyone so take it how you will.

In response to your request that I stick to medical advice I would be more than happy to specifically address some of the main points that were not accurate in the thread. There are many others, but most are minor. These are the more glaring errors.

Berkeley_Mike was wrong about insisting overuse syndrome was to blame. It has already very clearly explained why, so I will not waste time repeating it.

Rounder was wrong about his insistence that the problem was caused a posterior chain defect or that the problem would go away by strengthening the posterior chain. Because of the problem explained by the poster that is actually one of the last things that would have been considered. A very detailed explanation why has already been given so there's nothing really more to add there either.

Rounder was wrong that most knee issues with cyclists can be traced to a weak posterior chain. Most are caused by improper bike fit, improper cleat placement, I.T. band friction syndrome, and/or improper or a total lack of stretching.

Rounder was wrong that intoeing and outtoeing are primarily caused by a weak posterior chain, or that either one can be successfully treated by simply strengthening the P.C. Although a great deal of information has already been provided on this I will add a couple of things. The muscles can be strengthened and the patient can learn to force the feet into the correct position even to the point of doing so almost unconsciously, but this does nothing to remedy the underlying cause. In adults the cause of intoeing and outtoeing is almost always skeletal in nature and is rarely caused by weak P.C., improper ligament length, or poor musculature.

Rounder was wrong that the Specialized Body Geometry shoes and inserts are junk science or a gimmick. Most cyclists suffer from improper biomechanical alignment of the leg, and the BG shoes address this. Although all BG shoes come with the varus wedge, which remedies the most common biomechanical misalignment, there are several different wedges and inserts for the shoes depending on the arch, shape off the foot, and correction needed. These are an excellent alternative to higher priced custom orthotics and in many cases we recommend these shoes to our patients depending on their complaint and need.

Specialized works closely with Dr. Andy Pruitt from the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine who has studied the interrelation between human biomechanics and cycling (bike fitting) for over 25 years and is considered one of the leading authorities in the world on the subject. His book is a must read for any health care professional or coach who deals with cyclists or for any bike shop employee who has to deal with fitting customers to their bikes. Or for that matter any cyclist period. Rounder needs to put this one on his short list, it is clear he has not read it.

Rounder was wrong when he stated that Monogod made a critical error by suggesting the BG shoes. Due to the problem that was being addressed it was a sensible suggestion in combination with the other suggestions offered. Monogod made it clear that the shoes were not a magic bullet and that other things should be taken into consideration and addressed as well.

Rounder was wrong when he said that suggesting BG shoes without an examination could be deemed as malpractice. Monogod did not prescribe anything, but was simply suggesting a product available on the free market that can be obtained without a prescription. He gave detailed information why he was suggesting the product and was not acting irresponsibly or recklessly to suggest them.

Rounder was wrong when he said that the BG shoes could cause serious damage to the original poster. If the wrong wedge is in the shoes the result may be discomfort, but no damage will occur as a result.

Rounder was wrong to consider genetics as a possible cause considering the information given by the original poster.

Rounder was wrong to not ask more questions of the original poster and to not discard his posterior chain assumption when the information provided by the poster clearly eliminated it as having any relevancy whatsoever.

Those are my views from a strictly medical standpoint.

The short version is that Rounder is full of ****.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

JointMD said:


> I have not read the Vegan thread, nor will I, so I am unable to comment on that or even understand what you mean by including it here. Maybe it is an inside joke or something.
> 
> I am also not sure what you mean by "resurrecting this dead horse for further beating" since I didn't open the door for any further discussion. I simply commented on it from the standpoint of sports orthopedist to clarify some things. My apologies if my response was not considered timely, but this thread had almost 150 posts in it when I was asked for my opinion on it. Not only did it take me a while to get around to even beginning to read the thread, but even longer to actually sift through it all. Originally I had not planned to join or comment on the board but simply give my opinion to my associate who asked I look it over and discuss it with him. After reading the thread, I felt it was my duty to clarify some things from a medical standpoint.
> 
> ...


I am now estimating the probability of JointMD = Monogod to be 0.4.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

someone came into the shop today and asked exactly what i done to get banned from mtbr.

im not banned.

im not jointmd.

dont visit the forum anymore cuz free time is too valuable. family, gf, school, riding, work, and upcoming boards and certifications leave little time for forum reading/posting period, much less arguing with infantile, fatuous, cretins.

as a grade school teacher my gf gets paid to deal with human beings that interact on a 3rd grade level. i dont. instead, i prefer conversations with adults rather than with inane ASPD's whos only apparent purpose in posting is to hone their logical fallicies and joust windmills.

may still check in and post from time to time, cuz theres lots of good folks on the forum ill miss talking with, but the trolls arent among that number and im done with them.

as someone once said, "_arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics.._.".


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

monogod said:


> someone came into the shop today and asked exactly what i done to get banned from mtbr.
> 
> im not banned.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear you were not banned. Didn't make much sense that you would be. Do come back when you have time.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> as someone once said, "_arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics.._.".


Makes me wonder what event you entered in

That poor vegan fellow could have used your help pity you abandoned him


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*It doesn't take too long to figure out*

that once one starts parading around their certifications it is akin to turning up the volume to force the validity of an arguement. The thread becomes distorted from a discussion to onemans edict, invalidating anyone elses experience or understanding. Hardly illumnating and largely thoughtless.

The most powerful people I know are gracious and would never hold their degrees over you to get their point across.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> that once one starts parading around their certifications it is akin to turning up the volume to force the validity of an arguement. The thread becomes distorted from a discussion to onemans edict, invalidating anyone elses experience or understanding. Hardly illumnating and largely thoughtless.
> 
> The most powerful people I know are gracious and would never hold their degrees over you to get their point across.


don't put too much matter too it he has as much trouble reading as can possibly be imagined. While he likes to attempt to disclude my correct possibilities for said knee pain again I will once say this guy can comment with as much bull crap authority as he wishes. When i read of how most joint maladies are caused by skeletal problems all I can do is . It's just another way to show that the science that he has learned and studied is wrong. All he knows how to do is bandage up someone who has screwed himself up by either traumatic force or being physically out of course. To support the notion that the shoes or orthotics will help is yet another simplistic but again wrong assumption by both him and monogod. He and monogod clearly do not understand what overuse is and How to keep people healthy as opposed to fix them up after their misalignments cause problems. Oh well what do you call a man that graduated last in medical school? Doctor!


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

JointMD said:


> I have not read the Vegan thread, nor will I, so I am unable to comment on that or even understand what you mean by including it here. Maybe it is an inside joke or something.
> 
> I am also not sure what you mean by "resurrecting this dead horse for further beating" since I didn't open the door for any further discussion. I simply commented on it from the standpoint of a sports orthopedist to clarify some things. My apologies if my response was not considered timely, but this thread had almost 150 posts in it when I was asked for my opinion on it. Not only did it take me a while to get around to even beginning to read the thread, but even longer to actually sift through it all. Originally I had not planned to join or comment on the board but simply give my opinion to my associate who asked I look it over and discuss it with him. After reading the thread, I felt it was my duty to clarify some things from a medical standpoint.
> 
> ...


 YAWN... stick to fixing whats broken there puppydog. Leave the ability to keep athletes out of harm to me and Berkeley Mike. If someone stress something by using it in a way that it is not prepared for that is overuse. I've seen more than my share of athletes destroy their careers listiening to Quacks like you. A great runningback comes to mind when he got orthotics made and then tore his knee apart. While there are a few great minded sports orthopedics you are clearly not one of them. Now get out there and help those out of shape moronic weekend warriors to stay out of shape and never actually fix their problems.

Orthopedic surgeries are generally unnecessary and have an incredibly high fail rate for those that do not know.

See kids this guy gets paid to bandage you and swindle your money not to help you from becoming broke in the first place. It is what he is taught. Stay away from the hoodoo voodoo.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> When i read of how most joint maladies are caused by skeletal problems all I can do is


that statement can be found nowhere in the entire thread.

however, more than one qualified medical professional as correctly stated that in/out toeing is skeletal in etiology rather than weak posterior chain.

it was also stated that muscles can be strengthened and trained to force the feet into the correct position (what you claim you do) but it does nothing to correct the underlying cause (skeletal deformation/pathology). in other words the symptom is addressed, not the cause.



rounder said:


> It's just another way to show that the science that he has learned and studied is wrong.


gosh, what a responsibility laid upon you by the gods when they revealed to you that the entire fields of medicine, physiology, orthopedics, science, and cycling are completely wrong and imbued you with the REAL medical and scientific facts and knowledge. ut:



rounder said:


> To support the notion that the shoes or orthotics will help is yet another simplistic but again wrong assumption by both him and monogod.


...and andy pruitt, who is considered the leading authority in the world on cycling kinetics, physiology, and biomechanics.

...and the boulder center for sports medicine, considered to be one of the leading sports med centers in the world.

...and chris carmichael, lances coach and the 1999 olympic committee coach of the year.

...and fred matheny, world reknowned cycling coach from www.roadbikerider.com.

...and the specialized body geometry program which has enlisted many of the elite cycling physiologists and doctors and has invested years and millions upon millions of dollars in the study of cycling physiology in order to keep cyclists healthy, injury free, and in top form.

...and countless professional cycling teams worldwide.

...and countless cycling physiologists, orthopedics, coaches, and trainers.

theyre collectively wrong, and youre right. um.... yeah. ok. :skep:

you should really take joints advice and read the complete medical guide for cyclists.



rounder said:


> what do you call a man that graduated last in medical school?


you mean aside from "more educated than rounder"? :lol:

and your professional title is? your undergrad degrees are in what, exactly? your doctorate degree(s) is/are in what exactly? your medical specialty certifications are in what area? you hold what board certifications?

oh yeah, thats right, you dont hold ANY of the above.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

although all three are knee slapping, wet your pants funny im not sure which is most amusing... 

that these guys would dismiss the credentials of those who are clearly more qualified to comment on an issue by saying that providing credentials is "akin to turning up the volume to force the validity of an arguement" when they themselves provided their credentials in an attempt to validate their positions only to be soundly trumped. 

or that they insist that mainstream medicine, orthopedics, and the science of cycling physiology/kinetics/biomechanics is wrong and they are right. 

or that rounder is lecturing a board certified orthopedic surgeon on anatomy, physiology, orthotics, kinesiology, and biomechanics. 

although my free time is in short supply, entertainment like this i can make time for! :lol:


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## nagatahawk (Jun 20, 2007)

boring, blah blah 

On a positive note. I have switched from SPDs to froggies. I have had them for a little over a month and my right knee has improved. My knee was being stressed from the twist to pull my cleat from the pedal during stop and go city riding.

I still feel a litte twitch from time to time but it has definitely improved.

I have no credentials, I am a no body, I just ride.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> that statement can be found nowhere in the entire thread.
> 
> however, more than one qualified medical professional as correctly stated that in/out toeing is skeletal in etiology rather than weak posterior chain.


wrong as wrong can be. This is the whole underlying problem that was presented pages ago You and you unproven collaborator here are trying to say that 99% of all adults have a problem with their skeletal etiology. No you incredibly naive fools... they have muscular imbalances which are easily correctable.
I can put any person that walks duck footed on a simple program to strengthen their posterior chain and they will with 100% success change their toe out pattern to more neutral. Usually within a month . EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY STRENGTH COACH WILL ACHIEVE THE SAME RESULTS PROVIDED THEY CONCENTRATE THE LOWER BODY WORK ON THE POSTERIOR CHAIN... WHERE IT BELONGS IN THE FIRST PLACE FOR ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE!!!!! 
Yes it is true that giving this info out to the public results in no paycheck for all those listed above involved. Sorry to rain on your conspiracy parade. I can see the reluctance to accept this, after all, you and their usefulness then becomes null and void.
You and your cohort here do not know the first thing about maximizing athletic performance and seemingly how simple a little knee pain can be corrected by proper application of tried and true training principals designed to maximize performance and keep the athlete healthy so they never need to be ruined by the likes of some orthos misdiagnosis and overuse of the blade.
whan some Doctor or coach gets paid money to endorse something well 
Like an actor who claims to use this product to defy aging or some chit.
Notice how the Pros don't really use the body geometry bull chit. their bodys work right through balanced strength and they do not need to. Sure some may for monetary sake but no telling if they modified them.

Also i really enjoy how you attempt to say I need to listen to the OP more when neither of you recognized that he started walking more when the semester started and compounded this new stress by riding his bike.
And another thing... following my principles of posterior chain strengthening will allow someone to still be able to ride pain free even if his positioning on his bike is off. The body should have no problem to adapt to the stresses involved. If it is properly strengthened and flexible enough it will. Cycling is a sport that involves very low knee stress.
Nature gives most people a wonderfully athletic body and then through disuse over time the body becomes unbalanced and painful stresses become commonplace. Watch children at play and you'll see a world of flexibility and natural balance in strength. You adults with problems were once just as nimble and athletic as those children. It was YOUR neglect that caused your body to become something that no longer resembles the biomechanical masterpiece that once was.:thumbsup: 
Improper training just exemplifies the problem.Quit buying into these Doctors and their bullchit you can be pain free and recapture your youth through training and use of that wonderful, perfect body you posess!


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

nagatahawk said:


> boring, blah blah
> 
> On a positive note. I have switched from SPDs to froggies. I have had them for a little over a month and my right knee has improved. My knee was being stressed from the twist to pull my cleat from the pedal during stop and go city riding.
> 
> ...


Glad to see something helped you from the stress you felt before. Too bad you don't want to correct the problem so that the stress will not come back if you were forced to switch back.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> you mean aside from "more educated than rounder"? :lol:
> 
> and your professional title is? your undergrad degrees are in what, exactly? your doctorate degree(s) is/are in what exactly? your medical specialty certifications are in what area? you hold what board certifications?
> 
> oh yeah, thats right, you dont hold ANY of the above.


 Neither do you !!!! Oh and yes I could have continued my education but for what...To not be able to afford to live in my neighborhood!


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> although all three are knee slapping, wet your pants funny im not sure which is most amusing...
> 
> that these guys would dismiss the credentials of those who are clearly more qualified to comment on an issue by saying that providing credentials is "akin to turning up the volume to force the validity of an arguement" when they themselves provided their credentials in an attempt to validate their positions only to be soundly trumped.
> 
> ...


Umm... what credentials???
for all we know this guy is another classmate of yours. He is more than welcome to PM me his credentials. I'll even be happy to stop by his practice and discuss this name calling of his personally. ( I have access to a Citation) .
And if the guy needs to be lectured to so be it.

I agree this is entertaining and since you had left there has been nothing here much worth discussing. 
Oh yeah I noticed you did duck and run when asked to prove your ridiculous theories on evolution discrepancies..
Interesting here I bet your cohort believes in evolution. Guess you'll be arguing with him all board certified and such. Also wasn't it you that openly mocked the medical educational system yes it was(although I'm sure denial will be your scapegoat here). See... If you can not believe ALL that is taught in schooling then how can you be sure the things you attempt to defend are right and not as incorrect as all the other "educational discrepancies" like evolution and omnivorous eating. Nothing but a Hypocrate aren't you.

The only thing that guides your right and wrong is your perception. Your posts, my friend, are the laughable joke.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> I noticed you did duck and run when asked to prove your ridiculous theories on evolution discrepancies


nope. just dont have time or desire to argue on the internet with yet more idiots. i get my idiot/troll fix with you. :thumbsup:

besides, as i said before... "_arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics..._"

since youre too obtuse to get it the last time, ask one of the grownups to explain it to you.



rounder said:


> You and you unproven collaborator here are trying to say that 99% of all adults have a problem with their skeletal etiology.


wrong. no one has implied nor could any reasonably sane person infer that from any of the posts in this thread.

and no one has a problem with "skeletal etiology", genius. etiology in relation to disease causality means "the cause of".

in other words, the etiology (cause) of virtually all in/out toeing is skeletal in nature rather than muscular imbalance.



rounder said:


> Neither do you !!!!


in keeping with the theme of the rest of your posts you are absolutely wrong and have no idea what youre talking about. i have a couple of degrees and hold several professional titles including one in medicine and one in psychology, and will hold two more in medicine shortly.

be that as it may, keep on jousting the windmills, don quixote. youre a legend in your own mind.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

*one more thing, rounder...*

we're all dumber for having read your posts. you are awarded no points. may God have mercy on your soul.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Your doing it again Monogod

Push away from the keypad.

Easy now, easy.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

jeffscott said:


> Your doing it again Monogod
> 
> Push away from the keypad.
> 
> Easy now, easy.


not really jeff. last time it was UNcalled for. that can hardly be said in this case... :thumbsup:


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> in other words, the etiology (cause) of virtually all in/out toeing is skeletal in nature rather than muscular imbalance.
> 
> .


 I think you have been smoking something here. 
99% of all adults have toe in toe out gates. 1+1=2 SO yes you did say that. :madman:

Problems with muscular imbalance not skeletal silly little one. 
You can foward me your supposed credentials at any time till then just a student in his mid 30s unknowledgable about the world and nature.

how can you not have problems with skeletal causes???


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> not really jeff. last time it was UNcalled for. that can hardly be said in this case... :thumbsup:


Say whatever you feel I don't get hurt just entertained and so should the others :thumbsup:

someday it would be good for you to actually respond to the meat of most of my posts and their underlying ability to show you how wrong you are till then you got nothing but a creative ability to be a bad politition.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> I don't get hurt just entertained and so should the others


rest assured that you amuse us all a great deal, little troll.



rounder said:


> 99% of all adults have toe in toe out gates.


thats 100% b.s.

many children do, but most in/out toeing is self corrected by adulthood. in extreme cases of skeletal pathology the in/out toeing is carried into adulthood. however, neither are predominantly of muscular imbalance etiology.

you go on to speak out of your rectum and proudly demonstrate your profound ignorance by postulating...


rounder said:


> Problems [in/out toeing] with muscular imbalance not skeletal


however, you will not find correlation of this statement anywhere within the medical community or peer review journals. in fact, all studies and peer review journals state just the OPPOSITE! (let me guess... theyre all wrong and youre right )

JPO, 1993 Vol. 5, Num. 2 > pp. 35-38... "_Major causes of intoeing include femoral anteversion, internal tibial torsion and problems of the foot, including metatarsus adductus, clubfoot and dynamic intoeing."_ and... _"Outtoeing, like intoeing, has several causes: external rotation contracture of the hip, which usually resolves spontaneously; femoral retroversion in which the patella faces outward (very rare); and external tibial torsion, which is usually a compensatory mechanism for excessive femoral anteversion. "_

American Family Physician, Nov 1, 1994 also clearly states the above causes of in/out toeing and also states that it is resolved by adulthood in most cases.

Orthopaedics, PFEM 007, May, 2006 corroborates the three main causes of intoeing. they go on to state "_In most children, intoeing will go away without any treatment. The usual bone growth in the legs leads to correction in most children by age 6 to 8 years of age."_ hint: this means very few adults intoe, and those that will do so because of skeletal pathology.

Stephen Sundberg, M.D.**** stated in an article _"The three typical causes of intoeing are: Metatarsus adductus (curved foot), Femoral anteversion (twisted thighbone), Tibial torsion (twisted shinbone)"_

hughston health alert, volume 13, number 4, fall 2001... _"causes of intoeing or outtoeing are internal tibial torsion and external tibial torsion"_

and the list of peer review journals, case studies, etc. which clearly state that in/out toeing is skeletal rather than muscular in etiolgy goes on and on. keep in mind that NO ONE has yet refuted ANY of the thousands of studies and peer review journals which clearly state this. you stand alone.

basically, the entirety of the disciplines of podiatry, orthopaedics, and orthology say in/out toeing is skeletal in nature and that most cases are spontaneously resolved before adulthood while you, the great uneducated one, insists that in/out toeing is due to muscular imbalance and that 99% of adults in/out toe.

wonder who is right??? (no offense, but my money aint on you)

granted, as many as 70% of adults have limb length discrepancy though, which is thought to sometimes trigger compensatory mechanisms (such as intoeing) to shorten the lever arm of the foot thus producing a less altered gait. but again, the cause is SKELETAL in nature rather than a muscular imbalance.



rounder said:


> how can you not have problems with skeletal causes???


wow! you really are an idiot! let me break it down for you, dullard.

one CAN have problems that are skeletal in origin.

however, what you said was "99% of all adults have a problem with their skeletal etiology".

so what you said was "99% of all adults have a problem wth their skeletal [cause of disease]". in other words, you said that the origin of disease is malfunctioning in 99% of adults!

so yes, one can have problems which are skeletal IN causality (i.e. etiology), but one does not have problems with "THEIR skeletal etiology". thats because no one has a "skeletal etiology". improper use of the word. get it now, genius? quit repeating the big words you hear others using but yet have no clue of their meaning. ut:



rounder said:


> someday it would be good for you to actually respond to the meat of most of my posts


the fact that youre too stupid to realize thats been done repeatedly is not lost on any of us... 



rounder said:


> 1+1=2


'bout time you got SOMETHING right in this thread...



rounder said:


> politition


i think you meant "politician", moron.

****Stephen Sundberg, M.D., specializes in pediatric orthopaedics at Gillette Children's Specialty Healthcare in St. Paul, Minn. He graduated from the University of Minnesota Medical School and completed an orthopaedic residency at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn. Sundberg completed a pediatric orthopaedic fellowship at Adelaide Children's Hospital in Adelaide, Australia. He began working at Gillette in 1986, is a member of Pediatric Orthopaedic Associates and is certified by the American Board of Orthopaedics. Sundberg's professional associations include the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons, Pediatric Orthopaedic Society of North America, Minnesota Orthopaedic Society, Twin Cities Orthopaedic Society, and Association for the Study and Application of the Methods of Ilizarov.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> rest assured that you amuse us all a great deal, little troll.
> 
> thats 100% b.s.
> 
> ...


thing here is you must be referring to something other than the duck footed walk of which about 99% of all people suffer from. Does not take a journal posting to simply walk down through a crowded area and notice this. Now the only possibility here is you and I are not discussing the same thing. As such I have assumed that your talk of in/out toeing had to be what you were referring to as duck feet or pidgeon toed. Now I first called about this using the ternminology of duck feet. You changed to in/out toeing. Are we referring to the ame thing? If we are then yes your journals are obviousy wrong as can be pointed out the next time you walk through an airport,mall,campus or any other part of this world you can come up with to see a large sampling of people.

So here it goes in my terms DUCK FOOTED WALK IS DUE TO A DISCREPANCY IN MUSCULAR BALANCE BETWEEN THE POSTERIOR CHAIN TO QUAD ALSO REFERRED AS THE HAM/QUAD RATIO. 
Sorry... results always speak for themselves.

always good to see someone point out my quick typing not checking for spelling errors. Must be to add useless content when you know full well what I was saying.

Also call me any names you want as it is proof that producing results and not scholarly attributes are the ways to success. (your so smart and educated yet cannot afford a nice car and suffer through the lower class) Also those same journals are the ones that produce the proven facts of omnivorous digestive systems and evolutionary findings. But since you do not believe in those things this you have pulled above, through association, must be wrong as well!!

so either you have once again proven to be arguing a point that was misunderstood as to what the condition or situation was or you are still a hypocrate in the belief of science and the journals supported in such.

You know this is really ridiculous that you spend all this time trying to prove tried and true methods wrong. It is so stupid for you to sit at your computer and argue with me and Berkeley Mike (and it seems about everyone else) when myself and any other in the field of strength and conditioning have been correcting imbalances and improving performance for so long that the results can not be disputed. No matter what you continue to say here you will still be wrong and never ever be able to show that what I do and am saying is incorrect. If I have been mistakenly been assuming you and I were discussing the same condition then I appologize. And If we are not then I will still continue to work with athletes and improve their strength and conditioning and strengthen their joints to handle more force no matter how much smoke you want to continue to blow up the people of this forums azz. I do not need your overblown education to do my job so while I may not be up on all the scholastic terminology and lingo I get results. Again, you can not infect my world with your crap. You do entertain it however and for that I thank you.

There is a world out here where good athletes are trained into great ones. I am part of that world and you are not. End of story.
.....Sill little boy with the "I'm right even though proven results are wrong" crap... you need to go back to silence and let the men of this forum who help athletes help them without the scientific crutch of crap you choose to regurgitate. 
funny thing I did notice that you were too busy trying to prove yourself right to actually continue with the OP and help him, at least I did. And what did happen to the boy? has he tweaked his positioning and seen the pain subside? Did he try some strength and stretching? Did he buy some different pedals or inserts to help or fail at controlling the pain?
Go be a Doctor go mend broken bones and perform useless surgeries. Do what you need to do to become the oldest intern in your training hospital. The one that does not believe in evolution or meat eating 
Or continue on here with your little ego and try to dissect my words as you have done above into the incorrect meaning I was after, never actually doing anything but squandering your ability to get along with others and become a man. (silly little beta male)


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> thing here is you must be referring to something other than the duck footed walk of which about 99% of all people suffer from.


no, im talking about intoeing which you, the uneducated layman, continuously refer to as "duck footed". "intoeing" is the correct medical terminology.



rounder said:


> Does not take a journal posting to simply walk down through a crowded area and notice this.


ive been all over the world including 3rd world countries and have not noticed 99% of adults with an intoe gait. maybe all the inbreeding in your little neck of the woods is producing all the physical defects you claim to see everywhere. by your posts, it obviously causes mental disorders as well.



rounder said:


> Now the only possibility here is you and I are not discussing the same thing. As such I have assumed that your talk of in/out toeing had to be what you were referring to as duck feet or pidgeon toed. Now I first called about this using the ternminology of duck feet. You changed to in/out toeing. Are we referring to the ame thing?


the medical term is "intoeing" not "duck footed".



rounder said:


> [If we are then yes your journals are obviousy wrong as can be pointed out the next time you walk through an airport,mall,campus or any other part of this world you can come up with to see a large sampling of people.


yeah... in addition to the entire medical community, science community, sports kinesiology community, now the entire disciplines and science of podiatry and orthopeadics is wrong as well. 

geez dude, youre a real piece of work.



rounder said:


> So here it goes in my terms DUCK FOOTED WALK IS DUE TO A DISCREPANCY IN MUSCULAR BALANCE BETWEEN THE POSTERIOR CHAIN TO QUAD ALSO REFERRED AS THE HAM/QUAD RATIO.


doesnt matter how often you say it, youre still nothing more than an uneducated layman with an INCORRECT mantra.



rounder said:


> (your so smart and educated yet cannot afford a nice car and suffer through the lower class)


i believe you mean "youre", moron.

and since when did education and knowledge become synonymous with money? einstein was far from wealthy. snoop dog is rich beyond measure, but that doesnt mean he knows squat about medicine, science, kinetics, or physiology.

you may or may not have more money than i do and may or may not live in a nicer house, but that doesnt change the fact that youre still an idiot and an uneducated layman when it comes to discussing medicine, science, kinetics, and physiology.

however... once again, not content to be anything other than wrong you want to take it to money and cars. i guess in making that statement youre not counting my z28 with over 40 grand worth of mods? or my 4runner or tdi jetta? since you said "car" i guess youre not referring to my malibu sunsetter wakeboard boat or prinstine v65 sabre?



rounder said:


> Also those same journals are the ones that produce the proven facts of omnivorous digestive systems and evolutionary findings. But since you do not believe in those things this you have pulled above, through association, must be wrong as well!!


youre such an idiot its hard to keep up.

the difference is that within peer review journals that discuss evolution there is PLENTY of refutation and PLENTY of science disputing the THEORY of evolution (intoeing is not a theory, dipstick). there is also a lack of peer review journals scientifically identifying the human digestive track as omnivorous in physiology. but if you actually read peer review journals or actually did any research you would know this.



rounder said:


> so either you have once again proven to be arguing a point that was misunderstood as to what the condition or situation was or you are still a hypocrate in the belief of science and the journals supported in such.


HONEST science i believe in. i have never stated otherwise.



rounder said:


> You know this is really ridiculous that you spend all this time trying to prove tried and true methods wrong.


what is ridiculous is that an uneducated layman insists that he is right in the face of entire fields of science which state otherwise.



rounder said:


> No matter what you continue to say here you will still be wrong and never ever be able to show that what I do and am saying is incorrect.


the fact that youre too stupid to realize youve been shown to be an utter and complete buffoon repeatedly is what makes this so amusing. your errors have been made clear REPEATEDLY yet you keep coming back for more.

not too bright, but you sure have stamina. ill give you that.



rounder said:


> If I have been mistakenly been assuming you and I were discussing the same condition then I appologize.


no, weve been talking about the same thing. youre just an idiot and dont even know the correct terminology for something you claim to be an expert in.



rounder said:


> There is a world out here where good athletes are trained into great ones. I am part of that world and you are not.


yeah. ok. you train all the best atheletes in the world by fighting conditions the entire rest of the scientific, medical, and cycling community all know do not exist.

good thing you didnt get your hands on lance.



rounder said:


> .....Sill little boy with the "I'm right even though proven results are wrong" crap... you need to go back to silence and let the men of this forum who help athletes help them without the scientific crutch of crap you choose to regurgitate.


yeah, yeah, yeah... we know. youre right and the entire rest of the world is wrong.

we know. we get it.



rounder said:


> funny thing I did notice that you were too busy trying to prove yourself right to actually continue with the OP and help him, at least I did.


offering WRONG advice and insisting he has a problem which he does not is not helping anyone and is what started our "discussion".



rounder said:


> Go be a Doctor go mend broken bones and perform useless surgeries. Do what you need to do to become the oldest intern in your training hospital. The one that does not believe in evolution or meat eating


once again, in true idiot fashion you are clueless that getting a doctorate does not necessarily mean going through med school.

and a doctorate in sports kinesiology and physiology is actually a much more focused and specialized degree than finishing med school.

also, once one completes med school residency is not necessary unless one wishes to practice at a hospital or specialize.

also, people much older than myself graduate from med school and go through residency all the time.

but being the complete moron that you are, you dont know any of this.



rounder said:


> Or continue on here with your little ego and try to dissect my words as you have done above into the incorrect meaning I was after, never actually doing anything but squandering your ability to get along with others and become a man. (silly little beta male)


ego? you mean like insisting that the entire medical, scientific, and cycling community is wrong while you are right? you mean like that???

disecting your words simply demonstrates what an idiot you are. you are condemned by them, and with them repeatedly confirm that you are not just a garden variety moron. no, far from it. stupid like yours is special and not something one comes across every day.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> no, im talking about intoeing which you, the uneducated layman, continuously refer to as "duck footed". "intoeing" is the correct medical terminology.
> 
> iv.


so we are talking about the same thing . no the journals are not wrong what is wrong is the bozo who is referencing them and his inability to realize that these must be only in reference to skleletal causation. So it seems the journals initial idea is "if" it is a skeletal etiology. Sure it is rare for it to be skeletal it is caused in 99% of adults due to improper muscular ratio between glute and ham. 
you are obviously not able to look down at people and watch them walk which is great because your attempt to say that intoeing is not prevalent in most every individual is the easiest observation for anyone reading this to make. once they just observe that people have this tendency they will see that I am right and you are a lost puppy in denial and of course as usual I win!! 
This is great that you wrote this ...a timeless piece into the world of sensational delusion for sure. 
So I guess seeing that I have a house in Plano I am a *******??? I guess the good people of Florida, Texas, and Colorado are sure glad to hear that you think of all them as ********. Not to mention I spend quite a bit of time in airports so this carries over to all europe and America as well. :nono:

You just need to stop talking here you are parading around as an idiot more and more
...most people don't intoe hahahahahahaha you are as unobservant as a box of rocks. Thank you for saying this I now know you can't even keep up with a 4 year olds observational skills.
Bet you even intoe yourself. Also as admitted by the OP he intoes and others who have looked at their feet and were able to see which way they turned. Amazazing. 
thanks for putting your foot in your mouth I could not have imagined a more retarded response.
You.. your a malpractice suit waiting to happen.:thumbsup: 
No wonde why you choose to be my spell checker you can't possibly say anything that has any merit otherwise!

everyone understand this here. Mononut is telling us that when you look down at the way your feet point when you walk and notice they are pointing out you are a very rare bird. Now funny thing is I bet you can then look around and notice more people have this tendency than not (even if it is just a little bit) . Don't feel bad your walk is not rare... see. He is a dumbazz.

Also I did want to state that any personal attacks made to mononut are in no way the way I truly feel about social status... I just am "getting into character" to mess with the silly boys head. We are all equal and no one is better than another no matter what financial status you currently enjoy. 
Mononut is so weak he falls for it hook line and sinker then he steps all over himself and finally runs away claiming he is too busy all of a sudden. Fried Chicken my friends.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> so we are talking about the same thing . no the journals are not wrong what is wrong is the bozo who is referencing them and his inability to realize that these must be only in reference to skleletal causation. So it seems the journals initial idea is "if" it is a skeletal etiology. Sure it is rare for it to be skeletal it is caused in 99% of adults due to improper muscular ratio between glute and ham.


no, boy blunder. its clear that you dont read any better than you spell, because that is not at all what they are saying.

the first thing you got right in this thread was saying "1+1=2". the second thing you got right was that the peer review journals are not wrong. and what they are all stating are the basic etiologies of in/out toeing, and it is not specifically addressing etiologies skeletal in nature. they are saying "in/out toeing is caused by skeletal pathologies.". they are saying that most all are self corrected by adulthood. they are saying that the majority of adults who in/out toe do so because of skeletal imbalance and/or a compensatory measure of a skeletal imbalance.

you are trying so hard to save face at this point that if God Himself came over for dinner to tell you what a doofus you are for erroneously insisting that most adults intoe and that this condition is from musculature imbalance that you would tell Him Hes wrong. 

bottom line is this...

the entire fields of podiatry, medicine, science, physical therapy, kinesiology, physiology, sports medicine, and orthopedics say one thing regarding in/out toeing as well as the etiologies of knee pathologies and their appropriate responses. you, who has no formal education or scientific/medical/physiological/kinesiological background say another.

wonder who is right?

(my money is not on you)

good luck with the windmills, don quixote.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

so to you in toeing is a person who indeed walks with their toes pointed out of midline or perpendicular to the hips.

If that is true then yes all human beings that can see with their own two eyes and myself and any strength coach on the planet will disagree with that journal. 

a nice elementary illustation:

4 equal strength elastic bands(north, south, east, west) hold a pole straight up from the ground. One band is replaced with a band that has more strength(tension) what happens. That's right the pole is pulled towards the band. Same happens when muscles become out of balance. The stronger muscle pulls the skeletal syatem out of alignment. It is simple and if you and your medical journals can not figure this out then you are all idiots and yes I disagree (as does anyone who works in mine or closely related fields). while I may be exagerating the percent of people who do infact walk with their toes pointing out instead of straight(not sure the real %, but, watching people, somewhere around 9 out of ten or so). hell certain asian cultures want to walk that way as they regard it as more graceful from an astetic view.

So you are saying that skeletal abnormalities are corrected with most all adults(yup I agree) yet it is the cause of most adults that walk with their feet pointed out. Make up your mind here because the eyes do not decieve me or anyone else about this. You must be saying over 90% off all adults have skeletal problems (that is ridiculous) or is it more correct that these adults walk the way they walk because of how their musculature developed over the years?( of course) . Simple stuff and you may continue to argue and dig your own grave.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

*bow down, peasants... we have royalty in our midst!*



rounder said:


> The stronger muscle pulls the skeletal syatem out of alignment.


actually that is wrong, and you demonstrate once again your profound ignorance of anatomy and physiology. the major skeletal pathologies responsible for virtually all in/out toeing are not caused by muscular strength discrepancy. you would realize this if you actually understood anatomy and physiology or any of what has been cited and explained to you thus far. and explained on a level that even a 5 year old could understand at that!



rounder said:


> It is simple and if you and your medical journals can not figure this out then you are all idiots and yes I disagree (as does anyone who works in mine or closely related fields)


so the entire field of podiatry, sports kinesiology/physiology, and orthopaedics are wrong and populated with nothing but idiots?

ive no doubt there may be other imbiciles in "your field" that think as you do. but then again... "your field" lets someone with zero formal education in anatomy and physiology, science, and medicine have a job and "help" people while podiatrists, orthopaedics, sports physiologist/kinesiologists, chiropracters, and even physical and occupational therapists require an extensive amount of schooling and certification.

but youre right and theyre wrong? 

peer review medical journals are published by impartial professional organizations and publishers and contain articles by qualified practitioners, scientists, and recognized experts in the various disciplines; and include results of history and case studies going back decades.

yet all information contained within them is wrong and you are right? 

you even had a board certified orthopaedic surgeon tell you that youre wrong. your response??? you tell him hes wrong and needs to go back to school! but tell us, for what? why should he go back to school? so he can gain the knowledge you hold resultant to NOT possessing any formal, advanced education and NOT understanding basic anatomy and physiology, and NOT holding any certifications or licensure in ANY discipline? is that what he needs to go back to school for?

youve been provided a plethora of medical and scientific information which proves you are totally and wholly incorrect, yet you insist that all of it is wrong and you are right. actually, i should put it like this...

...yet you insist that all of it is wrong and YOU are right?!?!?!?!?

like the good book says... _"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes" _ Proverbs 12:15



rounder said:


> while I may be exagerating the percent of people who do infact walk with their toes pointing out instead of straight(not sure the real %, but, watching people, somewhere around 9 out of ten or so).


everything youve said is exaggeration, speculation, and/or conjecture. youve done nothing but share a laymans opinion, and NO discipline that deals with anatomy, or physiology, or podiatry, or othopaedics, or sports medicine corroborates it.

either back up what youre saying scientifically/empirically or stfu with your inane, vacuous, fatuous rants and opinions.



rounder said:


> hell certain asian cultures want to walk that way as they regard it as more graceful from an astetic view.


prove it or stfu.



rounder said:


> is it more correct that these adults walk the way they walk because of how their musculature developed over the years?( of course)


um, actually no... of course not. its because of skeletal development. anyone who has ever taken anatomy and physiology knows this.

until you actually have something of substance to add on the topic other than _"i am right while the world renowned experts are all wrong; every major sports medicine organization and clinic is wrong; and the entire fields of sports medicine, kinesiology/physiology, podiatry, and orthopaedics are wrong"_ then do us all a favor and stfu.

ive got nothing against you personally. im sure youre a nice enough guy, and if you want to come down here to ride ill give you the grand tour of the trail system and we can pal around all day and have a good old time.

but that will not alter the bottom line which is that you simply have little to no knowledge, expertise, or credibility on this particular issue; and the more you post on the topic the more you demonstrate your total and complete ignorance on this topic.

it is entirely irrelevant to this topic how long you have been at your job, how much money you claim to make, where your house is, or how much you spend on harleys and porsches. what is relevant is that you simply dont know what youre talking about. a fact that has been shown repeatedly by citing numerous facts, case histories/studies, world renowned authorities on the topic, and point blank statements from various medical disciplines and peer review journals.

your only response is _"they are all wrong and i am right"_. rest assured that you are the only person on the forum who believes this.

if you truly think that the entire fields of podiatry, orthopaedics, and sports kinesiology/physiology are wrong and you are right then you are most certainly not only the king of all internet trolls but also the grand poobah of all morons world wide.

enjoy your reign, your majesty.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> actually that is wrong, and you demonstrate once again your profound ignorance of anatomy and physiology. the major skeletal pathologies responsible for virtually all in/out toeing are not caused by muscular strength discrepancy. you would realize this if you actually understood anatomy and physiology or any of what has been cited and explained to you thus far. and explained on a level that even a 5 year old could understand at that!
> 
> so the entire field of podiatry, sports kinesiology/physiology, and orthopaedics are wrong and populated with nothing but idiots?
> 
> ...


Ever single person who chooses to strengthen their posterior chain to a 2:3 ratio between the quads will prove me right. Every single person who chooses to pay attention to the way people around them will again prove me right. Every single person who puts tension on their adductor thereby turning their foot to perpendicular from the hips will prove me right. Learning a little about the asian culture will prove me right. 
Life and the world that surrounds us proves me right so I may suggest you stfu. Right nowe your only argument is I don't have a doctorate degree. Most all renound scientists ,doctors etc believe in evolution yet you do not. You my friend are projecting.

So let me guess now you will try to tell me that the bones move the body not the muscles. You are just baffling??!!!
flex the adductor and your feet turn in. Strengthen the adductor and your feet will turn, and remain, in. end of story. The entire scientific and sports field does not disagree with me here, only a moronic quack would! Danny Dryer teaches this to people in his running book, as do many other coaches and of course strength and conditioning coaches. Physical Therapists know this. Dude the list goes on and on. You are battling against proven physiology so again stfu. I provided a simple illustration for anyone that may choose to read this. If they believe you  then they will never have the opportunity to seek their true potential because according to you the away their strength is may never be corrected into a more athletic balance. stoopid friend stoopid!!! anyone who strengthens their posterior chain TO A MORE CORRECT RATIO WILL IN FACT TURN THEIR FEET IN TO A STRAIGHT OR EVEN PIDGEON TOED WALK. EVERY SINGLE PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE(WHERE LEG POWER IS INVOLVED) IS PROOF OF THIS !!! How do people that start hitting the weight room come out with better upperbody posture? They strengthen the muscles involved in their posture bringing their shoulders back. Some often train incorrectly and develop drooped foward shoulders as a result. Have you ever lifted weights at all??? You and your supposed (unproven till I see credentials) doctor do in fact need to relearn the way the body works cause something got lost in translation as the muscles guide the bones and joints not the other way around! Get over it, you are defeated.

Muscles stabilize and hold the joints. muscles stabilize and guide the joints. Differentials in opposing muscles determine how the joint will be stabilized. Differentials in the opposing muscles on the joint will determine how it is guided through it's range of motion. Don't need 8 years of schooling to show and know this very simple fact!!!


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## wardfoto (Aug 12, 2007)

all this arguing and i can tell you two things.
one. monogod and jointmd are NOT the same person. monogod was in moab riding when jointmd posted his first. i know, because he was handing me my a## that day on amassa back.
second. post six page 5 rounder states the following, which is pretty much what monogod stated in one of the first posts as far as how to help the op. rounder states :

"If we can adjust your setup a little and get you going without pain then you will be well on your way to better knees. I still suggest IT stretching and perhaps seek out a yoga or pilates instructor to help strengthen the area so that you can develop more of a tolerance to stress and do even more with your knees staying out of pain."

pretty much sounds like both posters came to the same conclusion, even if they got there by different routes. 
oh, i can't wait for the attacks now that folks know i know monogod. this should be good for a laugh. and before anybody gets all personal and name calling, remember this:
i stated that both posters end up at the same conclusion. not picking sides, or taking favorites, but it does seem that after all the postulating, rounder's advice ends up being the same as monogod's. so stop the baiting, and ask this question...
timeless, how are the knees doing since you made the adjustments?
equitare durus. and have a great time.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> The brand of pedals has nothing to do with it.
> The height and fore-aft position might have something to do with it but that is pretty easy to adust; knee over pedal, small bend in your leg when foot all the way down.
> Cleat position is pretty easy but if you put your cleat where the poster below suggested (knuckle big toe/little toe) your upper calf behind the knee will just kill you. Guaranteed.
> 
> ...


I think I hurt my tendon strait below the kneecap with this....I was pedaling a 39 FR bike with a 34 in the front....I have not rode for 2 months and it still hurts resting it


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

wardfoto said:


> all this arguing and i can tell you two things.
> one. monogod and jointmd are NOT the same person. monogod was in moab riding when jointmd posted his first. i know, because he was handing me my a## that day on amassa back.
> second. post six page 5 rounder states the following, which is pretty much what monogod stated in one of the first posts as far as how to help the op. rounder states :
> 
> ...


Hmmm, has anyone seen Monogod, JointMD and wardfoto together at the same time?

The plot thickens.............

JK


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## wardfoto (Aug 12, 2007)

i can only tell you that monogod and i have been seen together on the trail. however, if we were the same person, and i'm not saying one way or the other, then i could very well be making this all up. but if we are the same person, then i want to know who was driving while i sat in the passenger seat on the way to moab.
however, kapusta, that was darn funny, even if we do all say so ourselves. hehehehe


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> Right nowe your only argument is I don't have a doctorate degree.


hardly.

my argument was, and is, that you say that 99% of people intoe and that the cause of intoeing is p.c. imbalance; yet the entire disciplines of sports medicine, anatomy/physiology/kinesiology, podiatry, and othopaedics hold a position diametrically oppossed to yours. ample supporting evidence has been provided.

my position is that you hold ZERO formal education in anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, biology, medicine, sports medicine, or orthopaedics yet you claim to be an knowledgable expert and authority on the subject; not merely that you dont have a doctorate.

your position all along has been "anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot. they are all wrong and i am right".



rounder said:


> The entire scientific and sports field does not disagree with me here, only a moronic quack would! Danny Dryer teaches this to people in his running book, as do many other coaches and of course strength and conditioning coaches. Physical Therapists know this. Dude the list goes on and on. You are battling against proven physiology so again stfu.


actually yes, the entire scientific and sports medicine field disagrees with your claim that 99% of all people intoe, and that intoeing is the result of p.c. imbalance.

glad you brought up dryer, as it will simply prove your profound ignorance on yet another topic. dryers approach to teaching is to prevent injuries, not to rectify intoeing etiologies. also, his "chi running" focuses on CORE strength and balance, proper pelvis tilt, and proper running alignment so the skeletal system supports the weight of the runner rather than the muscles. he does teach the importance of proper gait to aid in efficiency and injury prevention but his exercises are COMPENSATORY in measure rather than rectification of core etiology. in other words, its a band-aid for the symptom.

as ive previously stated, muscles can be strengthened and trained to FORCE the foot out of an intoe gait. however, (also as previously stated) this does NOT mean that the problem was p.c. imbalance and does nothing to address the root pathology. it simply addresses the symptom (in/out toeing) of various skeletal pathologies but does not address the root pathology.



rounder said:


> anyone who strengthens their posterior chain TO A MORE CORRECT RATIO WILL IN FACT TURN THEIR FEET IN TO A STRAIGHT OR EVEN PIDGEON TOED WALK.


its not "pidgeon (sic) toed walk", its "intoeing". and intoeing is not normal or desirable. if, by your actions, you are causing people to walk with an intoe gait you are damaging them and causing the body to be out of anatomical/physiological homeostasis. you truly are, as jointmd so aptly stated, an uneducated hack.



rounder said:


> Muscles stabilize and hold the joints. muscles stabilize and guide the joints.


you must have taken a different anatomy/physiology class than i did, cuz they taught us that the muscles MOVE the joints while LIGAMENTS stabilize and hold the joints. oh wait, i forgot... you DIDNT take a&p, did you? :lol:

you really, REALLY need to just stfu at this point. :thumbsup:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

*the quote so nice i had to hit it twice...*



rounder said:


> Muscles stabilize and hold the joints. muscles stabilize and guide the joints.


since the entire disciplines of science, sports medicine, anatomy, physiology, and kinesiology disagree with you YET AGAIN on YET ANOTHER foundational principle should we all assume it is THEY who are wrong rather than YOU? :lol:


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*The sad thing is, Mono,*

is that I no longer want to read what you have written. You will of course, write whatever blather you want about me and probably will. I'm done with you.:madman:


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## djcrb9 (Jan 13, 2004)

monogod said:


> as someone once said, "_arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics.._.".


Says the most argumentative person on mtbr...


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

djcrb9 said:


> Says the most argumentative person on mtbr...


not content to confine yourself merely to logical fallacies we see youve decided to add "liar" to your repertoire, since next to you f88 guys** im mr. congeniality.

**(esp. walter, warfaminepestilenceplague, oreo, chewie, nuboy, 427, yourself, etc.)


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## djcrb9 (Jan 13, 2004)

monogod said:


> not content to confine yourself merely to logical fallacies we see youve decided to add "liar" to your repertoire, since next to you f88 guys** im mr. congeniality.
> 
> **(esp. walter, warfaminepestilenceplague, oreo, chewie, nuboy, 427, yourself, etc.)


You were the one guy obnoxious enough that all of f-88 banded against you. You're the king of the trolls!

But you do seem to know something about knees, i can give you that i guess.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

djcrb9 said:


> You were the one guy obnoxious enough that all of f-88 banded against you.


that has never happened, liar.

you, walter, and that nitwit godlesscommunist are the only ones that have "banded against" me on f88. in fact, you three little trolls are the only ones who have inserted themselves into the middle of discussion/thread ive been involved in on f88 for the specific purpose of insulting me, just as you have once again done here**.

hint: posting in a thread solely for the purpose of insulting someone (as you have done here) makes one a troll. being insulted does not. 

**which confirms your status as troll.


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## djcrb9 (Jan 13, 2004)

monogod said:


> that has never happened, liar.
> 
> you, walter, and that nitwit godlesscommunist are the only ones that have "banded against" me on f88. in fact, you three little trolls are the only ones who have inserted themselves into the middle of discussion/thread ive been involved in on f88 for the specific purpose of insulting me, just as you have once again done here**.
> 
> ...


Even SNPete, japn, Belfrey, kept, frozen and others were irritated by you, and made comments to that point. Your selective memory might have filtered that out. I was just browsing through the general forums, and saw that you were making friends on here with the same reckless abandon.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

djcrb9 said:


> Even SNPete, japn, Belfrey, kept, frozen and others were irritated by you, and made comments to that point.


irritating a few f88 people is not synonymous with "all of f-88 [banding] against" someone. thus, you are a liar.

your only purpose in posting to this thread is to introduce ad hom arguments and insults. thus, you are a troll.

be gone, lying troll.


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## djcrb9 (Jan 13, 2004)

monogod said:


> irritating a few f88 people is not synonymous with "all of f-88 [banding] against" someone. thus, you are a liar.
> 
> your only purpose in posting to this thread is to introduce ad hom arguments and insults. thus, you are a troll.
> 
> be gone, lying troll.


Ok, nearly all of f-88 banding together.

Now's a good time to post your special olympics quote, since you fall into that trap every time.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

djcrb9 said:


> Ok, nearly all of f-88 banding together.


sorry, i forgot i was talking with you and needed to break it down into smaller pieces.

try to follow along, or get an adult to explain this to you...

irritating people is not the same as people banding together AGAINST someone.

even if one were to irritate every single person on the entire mtbr forum, that does not mean that they have banded against the one doing the irritating. it just means they are irritated by the content or manner of a post, thats all. get it now, lying troll?


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## djcrb9 (Jan 13, 2004)

monogod said:


> sorry, i forgot i was talking with you and needed to break it down into smaller pieces.
> 
> try to follow along, or get an adult to explain this to you...
> 
> ...


Would you be happier if i said that all of f-88 was irritated by you?

I could even say that all of f-88 banded together in irritation towards you.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

djcrb9 said:


> I could even say that all of f-88 banded together in irritation towards you.


you could, but you didnt. but even if you did it would also be a lie.

your only purpose for posting to the thread was to introduce ad hom arguments and insults, which makes you a troll.

you also posted blatant lies. that makes you a liar.


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## djcrb9 (Jan 13, 2004)

monogod said:


> you could, but you didnt. but even if you did it would also be a lie.
> 
> your only purpose for posting to the thread was to introduce ad hom arguments and insults, which makes you a troll.
> 
> you also posted blatant lies. that makes you a liar.


No blatant lies, though i did wander in to mock you a bit, and get you riled up. Had i known it would be so easy, i might have not done it.

You can go back to being an expert on, well, everything now.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

djcrb9 said:


> No blatant lies


except the ones pointed out



djcrb9 said:


> though i did wander in to mock you a bit


in other words, being a troll.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

wardfoto said:


> all this arguing and i can tell you two things.
> one. monogod and jointmd are NOT the same person. monogod was in moab riding when jointmd posted his first. i know, because he was handing me my a## that day on amassa back.
> second. post six page 5 rounder states the following, which is pretty much what monogod stated in one of the first posts as far as how to help the op. rounder states :
> 
> ...


The Op disappeared from the post. I already asked the question above.

Yes we both agree but differ in that as I have said all along, I disagree with the orthotic recommendation without being able to observe the actual OP. Also he seems to have some difficulties with me giving strengthening advise to help the foot face foward and provide better stability so the knee will be better protected. Common disagreance from two people who aim to achieve the same results through different avenues. Happens all the time in sports training. 
Whats wrong with knowing monogod? He means well and is wicked smart.:rockon:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> I disagree with the orthotic recommendation without being able to observe the actual OP.


understandable due to your lack of understanding of what was being recommended and why, what was recommended BEFORE taking that step, and not having any formal training or education in a&p, p&k, etc.



rounder said:


> Also he seems to have some difficulties with me giving strengthening advise to help the foot face foward and provide better stability so the knee will be better protected.


actually, the difficulty i have with the "strengthening advice" is that assumes facts not in evidence, assumes false presumptions, and presents numerous assertions, topics of insistance, diagnoses, and methodologies that hold virtually no foundation in a&p, podiatry, orthopaedics, or kinesiology.

it is not an insult when i have pointed out these areas of incongruence, some of which are of the most basic, fundamental, and foundational in nature. granted, the manner in which it was pointed out was sometimes caustic but i dont mind playing rough when others insist upon it. like i said before, its really not personal. and yes, the offer of the grand tour the park was legit.

although its clear the horse will never get up, ill give it a few more licks by responding to the advice designed to "help the foot face foward and provide better stability so the knee will be better protected" by sharing some basic a&p&k...


in/out toeing does not necessarily equate to instability.

in/out toeing does not necessarily equate to increased possibility or probabililty of knee injury.

forcing the foot forward does not by default equate to increased stability. depending on the in/out toeing etiology it can actually lead to instability and increased risk of injury.

forcing the foot forward does not equate to knee protection, but can actually have the opposite effect depending on the etiology of the in/out toeing.

p.c. imbalance is rarely the cause of in/out toeing.

strengthening the p.c. does not necessarily equate to or result in knee protection.

correcting someones walking gait does not necessarily equate to or result in more proper physiology/kinesiology of ones spin.

without seeing x-rays it is reckless to assume a specific etiology for in/out toeing, much less one that is rarely at cause.

forcing people to walk with a slight intoe though muscle training is not healthy or responsible for it doesnt promote physiological homeostasis and promotes dischord and imbalance.

transient knee pain resultant to cycling is usually due to improper cleat placement and/or bike fit.



rounder said:


> Whats wrong with knowing monogod?


nothing wrong with knowing me, just with admitting it. :lol:

as you may or may not have noticed, on topics which i have a great deal of knowledge, experience, and/or education on i do not back down and have been prone to rather vociferously discuss and/or defend my position. that irritates people.

nor am i one of the sheeple who blindly accepts everything at face value. speaking out against sacred cows irritates people.

i dont mind playing rough in response to the demeanor of others. that irritates people. funny thing is, that seems to irritate people more than the original antagonist.

go look on the f88 forum and you will see that 90% of the "discussions" are nothing more than ad hom arguments and strawmen. its a treasure trove of examples of logical fallacies. thats why i rarely visit any more. trolls will come out of the woodwork to insult someone but will offer nothing credible to the discussion (as we recently saw in this thread).



rounder said:


> He means well and is wicked smart


some might say thats a backhanded compliment since "meaning well" usually means blundering with good intentions.**

some might say "meaning well" entails offering sound, proven, knowledgeable recommendations resultant to mastering foundational and advanced concepts and principles during secondary formal education and real world experience in various disciplines.

thus, not knowing which standpoint you are coming from i will withhold gratitude for the "compliment".

**those same folks might even say "meaning well" could very well be defined as trying to help someone by arguing an erroneous position from the standpoint of no qualification, education, or knowledge while the whole time insisting that the plethora of disciplines, world renowned leaders in the fields, and even the most basic, fundamental foundational principles are wrong when they are not in agreement with them.


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## wardfoto (Aug 12, 2007)

nothing wrong with knowing monogod. it's just embarrassing for him to have to be seen with such a weak rider as myself, so i try not to have to make him face the fact that we know each other. it's easier on him, and i do try to be nice. 
hehehehe


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> understandable due to your lack of understanding of what was being recommended and why, what was recommended BEFORE taking that step, and not having any formal training or education in a&p, p&k, etc.
> 
> actually, the difficulty i have with the "strengthening advice" is that assumes facts not in evidence, assumes false presumptions, and presents numerous assertions, topics of insistance, diagnoses, and methodologies that hold virtually no foundation in a&p, podiatry, orthopaedics, or kinesiology.
> 
> ...


As you can see i don't back down either. 
Anyways I will still continue to say that the majority(read everyone without injury) of people out there that walk with their toes pointed out do not have a 2:3 ham/quad ratio. Their ratio ALWAYS shows weakness in the posterior chain. Strengthening this will produce the side effect of their feet pointing more foward(again always). It will happen each and every time without fail. The OP does indeed walk with his toes pointing out more so on one side of his body. imbalance between legs and quad /ham are evident for him. Is it a guarantee to relieve the pain in his knee? No, but, it is a guarantee that it will produce a stronger leg which can also help to lessen or eliminate the pain he has in his knee.(you yourself did recommend strengthen and stretch) The strengthening of posterior chain is a win- win situation for any athlete. I did in fact advise the Op guiding him towards better positioning in his cleat. Also told to look at saddle height as did many others. I will continue to recommend he look to strengthen the muscles of the posterior chain as no harm can be done by doing so safely.

I still do not agree with orthotics. to determine the correct style of running shoe a person should run in, a qualified(hopefully) person will want to see the runner run before recommendation. This, I believe, is also something that should be done if one is to advise a cyclist to choose a insole or shoe that is designed to realign the knee. You need to see him on the bike and pedaling. It only makes sense to go down the correct path for the OP rather than have him purchase something that will be incorrect for him in his particular case. From what I have experienced a bike shop employee knows dick about any of this stuff. (I'm not referring to you Monogod).

You can continue to insist and argue that I am wrong about the PC but myself and all others that work in strength related fields will continue without fail to change a persons gate by strengthening their posterior chain if it is indeed defficent.
In reality walking around on a high horse demanding you are right in this regard is akin to a hundred some od years ago when Doctors felt it was ridiculous to sterilize before surgery. (they sure had that wrong now didn't they).

A strong posterior chain is the gateway to performance in the athletes body. It's what separates the men from the boys! http://www.analyticcycling.com/PedalImpMuscleStrength_Page.html to help give a better understanding:thumbsup:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> As you can see i don't back down either.


you certainly dont, even when it is clearly demonstrated that you are wrong. that i have little, if any, respect for.

in fact, the more you post the clearer you make it that you really dont have a clue what youre talking about. with every erroneous "fact" you state and stand behind; with every refusal to accede your unfounded/uninformed opinions to proven, accepted science and fact; and with every insistence that major branches of science are wrong because they do not concur with your "expert findings" you lose credibility.

im almost tempted not to respond any further to save you the embarassment because at this point i honestly feel sorry for you to see you floundering around desperately trying to save face and claw and grasp at a shred of credibility.

almost.



rounder said:


> Anyways I will still continue to say that the majority(read everyone without injury) of people out there that walk with their toes pointed out do not have a 2:3 ham/quad ratio. Their ratio ALWAYS shows weakness in the posterior chain. Strengthening this will produce the side effect of their feet pointing more forward(again always). It will happen each and every time without fail.


and as has been explicitly shown ad nauseum, every time you say it you will be wrong.

by the way, now youre saying that the majority of people outtoe. before you said 99% of people intoe. which is it? (either assertion is wrong, by the way)



rounder said:


> The OP does indeed walk with his toes pointing out more so on one side of his body. imbalance between legs and quad /ham are evident for him.


wrong for several reasons. since the genesis of your erroneous position has been demonstrated and explained in minute detail; and because it falls on deaf ears with you and you insist that 5 major branches of science/medicine in addition to the collective field of peer review journals are wrong and full of idiots because thay contradict you, i will not waste time with repetitious explanations but rather will simply summarize by noting...


p.c. imbalance will not result in transient pain as the OP reported.

having not seen an xray you have no basis for this diagnosis or to automatically assume an etiology of rare occurrence.

numerous disciplines which deal with the foot, a&p&k, and orthopaedics stand in opposition to your pet etiology.



rounder said:


> Is it a guarantee to relieve the pain in his knee? No, but, it is a guarantee that it will produce a stronger leg which can also help to lessen or eliminate the pain he has in his knee.(you yourself did recommend strengthen and stretch)


the reason i recommended stretching was not to address p.c. imbalance. nor will strengthening the p.c. address the etiologies i was referring to by recommending stretching.

p.c. imbalance will virtually never result in either the occurance (transient) or specificity (knee) of pain the OP reported.



rounder said:


> I will continue to recommend he look to strengthen the muscles of the posterior chain as no harm can be done by doing so safely.


and you will continue to be wrong in recommending he do so to address his complaint.

you could recommend he stick a feather up his butt and cluck like a chicken, but that wont address the core issue either.

since you have no formal education in anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, medicine, biology, or science; and since you have clearly demonstrated you dont even understand the most basic and fundamental elements of anatomy/physiology/kinesiology (click here); any recommendation you give on the subject carries scant (if any) weight and is nothing more than a layman's OPINION.



rounder said:


> I still do not agree with orthotics.


understandable since you do not understand basic anatomy/physiology/kinesiology; or sports physiology/kinesiology; or basic orthopaedic science/methodologies; or the science behind the body geometry products.



rounder said:


> to determine the correct style of running shoe a person should run in, a qualified(hopefully) person will want to see the runner run before recommendation. This, I believe, is also something that should be done if one is to advise a cyclist to choose a insole or shoe that is designed to realign the knee. You need to see him on the bike and pedaling. It only makes sense to go down the correct path for the OP rather than have him purchase something that will be incorrect for him in his particular case. From what I have experienced a bike shop employee knows dick about any of this stuff. (I'm not referring to you Monogod).


if you are not referring to me then you invalidate the entire quote above in reference to my recommending bg shoes to the op.

understanding the science behind bg products; fully understanding not just basic but also advanced a/p/k; being a trained medical professional who is specializing in sports medicine; and resultant from asking very specific questions of the op the bg products were recommended. not as the first step, and not as a magic bullet, but rather as a rung in the ladder of recommendations starting from simplest to complex and as part of a comprehensive modality.

i wont rehash the science or validity of bg shoes/inserts other than to repeat that many of the top cycling physiologists/kinesiologists in the WORLD along with millions of dollars of research along with thousands of hours of case studies/histories developed the products.

but rounder says its quack science. 

because you do not understand the science/physiology/kinesiology behind bg shoes, wedges, inserts; and because you have no formal medical training/instruction/experience; and because of your demonstrated lack the knowledge and understanding of even the most basic and fundamental foundations and principles of anatomy/physiology/kinesiology it is understandable that you should hold the above opinion.



rounder said:


> You can continue to insist and argue that I am wrong about the PC


take me out of the picture and lets put it this way...

you can continue to insist that the disciplines of podiatry, orthopaedics, sports physiology/kinesiology, as well as basic anatomy and physiology are wrong and you are right; but at the end of the day it will still be you who is wrong.



rounder said:


> but myself and all others that work in strength related fields will continue without fail to change a persons gate by strengthening their posterior chain if it is indeed


WHEN it is needed, it is appropriate. ive never stated otherwise. it simply isnt appropriate in this instance.



rounder said:


> In reality walking around on a high horse demanding you are right in this regard is akin to a hundred some od years ago when Doctors felt it was ridiculous to sterilize before surgery. (they sure had that wrong now didn't they).


some might say that insisting that the entire fields of podiatry, orthopaedics, and sports medicine are wrong while you are right is walking (i think you meant riding) around on a high horse.

some might say of your insistance that because these fields as well as all the peer review journals disagree with you that they are all idiots is riding around on a high horse.

in fact, i think virtually off of the forum (myself included) would agree with those people.

dont think youll find too many people who will say that comparing what you say to what major branches of medicine/science & peer review journals say and noting the discrepancies on YOUR part is being on a high horse.

but you do provide an excellent illustration of opinion/belief vs. science/fact. there was NO science behind not sterilizing before surgery. that was simply opinion. it was SCIENCE that proved that opinion to be wrong.

see the difference between belief and fact?

likewise, your position is simply your OPINION/BELIEF. however SCIENCE/FACT clearly reveals your opinion/belief to be erroneous. although demonstrated ad nauseum through science, medicine, entire disciplines, and peer review journals you refuse to capitulate.



rounder said:


> A strong posterior chain is the gateway to performance in the athletes body. It's what separates the men from the boys! http://www.analyticcycling.com/PedalImpMuscleStrength_Page.html to help give a better understanding:thumbsup:


ive not argued that balanced strength is of no importance to an athlete; nor have i ever argued that athletes do not benefit from a program of balanced strength training. but youre changing the subject because thats not what any of this is about.

the webpage that you no doubt spend a great deal of time searching for in a desperate attempt to save face does not validate your insistence that p.c. imbalance results in in/out toeing. nor does it corroborate your erroneous insistence that strengthening the p.c. will correct the core etiology of in/out toeing, strengthen the knee, protect the knee from injury, or aleviate transient knee pain.

in fact, its clear that you really dont understand what that page is saying because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

the gist of the page is to estimate the net power increase resultant from the strength training of specific muscles and to achieve a more powerful and efficient stroke, and includes a pedaling model to estimate the expected changes training will achieve.

this is a perfect example of a layman who doesnt understand a/p/k and/or science trying to use scientific/medical data and/or methodologies. 

had you ever actually received any formal education in sports physiology you would know that the information on that page is considered basic, foundational knowledge rather than some groundbreaking epiphany.

everyone has a right to their own opinion, be it right or wrong. youre free to state any opinion you want, but do us all a favor and qualify it by making it clear its simply your opinion rather than trying to pass it off as proven and /or accepted science/fact.

on the other hand, if you insist on presenting yourself as a professional in the field and your opinions as fact then for every specious, fatuous, vacuous "fact" and/or erroneous insistence/opinion you present as fact you may expect a response.

its nothing personal rounder. its clear you mean well.*

*in the classic sense


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> you certainly dont, even when it is clearly demonstrated that you are wrong. that i have little, if any, respect for.
> 
> in fact, the more you post the clearer you make it that you really dont have a clue what youre talking about. with every erroneous "fact" you state and stand behind; with every refusal to accede your unfounded/uninformed opinions to proven, accepted science and fact; and with every insistence that major branches of science are wrong because they do not concur with your "expert findings" you lose credibility.
> 
> ...


spent no time whatsoever looking for the analitical science thread. Did not change the subject the subject was changed earlier by another poster long ago and I worked with him. Do not need to save face but I am sorry you insist to walk with blinders on. I always used the term duck footed for laymans of what I was talking about. You called it in toeing which must mean and I did not correct you that you don't even know what duck foot walk is. Yes a good 99% of all people walk with their feet pointed out. sorry you do not know how to observe the world at large 
sorry you do not know how to grasp the fundamentals of strength.
sorry you are such a blooming idiot in all these regards.
sorry you cant followe elementary simplistic ideas 
sorry that your bullchit about skeletal causation is wrong


----------



## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

it turns out that monogod is very easy to discredit. One PT asked" what does he think we do strengthen bones?"
the REAL Ortho Doc felt he must not be very far along in his studies.
while you have made a vain attempt at discrediting me and saying i go against all science etc. it turns out that a simple call to any PT or real Ortho will confirm that I of course do indeed know what I am talking about and they honestly can not see what Monogod is arguing about. well, in the real world, the troll is in fact you with your bull chit misquotes and lack of thourough understanding of physiology! Thanks for playing I will no longer bother to explain or defend my correct position but will say that if anyone wants to question it you can take it up with any PT, strength and conditioning coach, or Ortho that will take the time to speak with you (the reader) about what I have posted.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> spent no time whatsoever looking for the analitical science thread. Did not change the subject the subject was changed earlier by another poster long ago and I worked with him. Do not need to save face but I am sorry you insist to walk with blinders on. I always used the term duck footed for laymans of what I was talking about. You called it in toeing which must mean and I did not correct you that you don't even know what duck foot walk is. Yes a good 99% of all people walk with their feet pointed out. sorry you do not know how to observe the world at large
> sorry you do not know how to grasp the fundamentals of strength.
> sorry you are such a blooming idiot in all these regards.
> sorry you cant followe elementary simplistic ideas
> sorry that your bullchit about skeletal causation is wrong


and im sorry that you cant spell or form coherent sentences and complete thoughts.

you previously said here and in other posts that 99% people intoe, now you are saying that 99% of people outtoe. which is it?

im sorry you dont understand the most basic principles of a&p, as evidenced by your insistence in the last paragraph here that _"muscles stabilize and hold the joints". _(which you did in a feeble attempt to validate recommending strengthening the p.c. to someone with transient knee pain)

you always use the term "duck footed" because you ARE a layman and are ignorant of the correct term as we saw clearly in this post when you said in response to my continutal correction of your incorrect nomenclature "_thing here is you must be referring to something other than the duck footed walk of which about 99% of all people suffer from."_ then you went on to say... _"Now the only possibility here is you and I are not discussing the same thing. As such I have assumed that your talk of in/out toeing had to be what you were referring to as duck feet or pidgeon toed. *Now I first called about this using the ternminology of duck feet. You changed to in/out toeing. Are we referring to the ame thing*?_"

despite being initially corrected here as well as every subsequent time you incorrectly referred to intoeing as "duck footed" or "pidgeon (sic) toed" you still didnt get it until much, much later. so dont try to play it off like you intentionally incorrectly use incorrect terminology.

in this post you said _"The OP does indeed walk with his toes pointing out more so on one side of his body." _ yet the op told you flat out he did not walk with an in OR out toe gait here when he said...


timeless said:


> Also I might like to point out that I when I walk my feet are not toed in or toed out but pointed fairly straight forward.


he also told you point blank that you didnt listen to him, didnt seem to like science, and seemed more interested in being right than offering helpful advice. i kinda liked the last paragraph too. you should put that one on the wall where you work. :thumbsup:

skeletal causation of intoeing isnt MY "bullchit". i didnt make it up. i didnt write the peer review journals cited here or any of the other thousands of p.r.j.s which say the same thing. i simply shared the information with the forum.

so dont blame me because sharing this information discredited you.

your own words discredit you.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> it turns out that monogod is very easy to discredit. One PT asked" what does he think we do strengthen bones?"
> the REAL Ortho Doc felt he must not be very far along in his studies.
> while you have made a vain attempt at discrediting me and saying i go against all science etc. it turns out that a simple call to any PT or real Ortho will confirm that I of course do indeed know what I am talking about and they honestly can not see what Monogod is arguing about. well, in the real world, the troll is in fact you with your bull chit misquotes and lack of thourough understanding of physiology! Thanks for playing I will no longer bother to explain or defend my correct position but will say that if anyone wants to question it you can take it up with any PT, strength and conditioning coach, or Ortho that will take the time to speak with you (the reader) about what I have posted.


so the guy who doesnt even understand the basic a&p of joints and calls the entire collective peer review journals and world renowned authorities in various disciplines idiots and quacks (because they are in disagreement with him) responds by simply howling _"im right, im right, im right"? _

by now, we expect nothing less from you.

of course any pt or ortho will know about strengthening the p.c. but they will not concur with you that it is a recommened remedy for transient knee pain as described by the op or that 99% of people intoe while the other 99% of people outtoe.

wait..... WHAT THE....?!?!?!?!?

first you insisted that 99% of people intoe, then insisted that 99% of people outtoe. along with a/p/k it would seem that math isnt your strong point either since that adds up to 198% of all people! :lol: (hint: thats 98% more people than exist)

no matter which way though, you were provided with contradictory proof from some of the leading orthos, podiatrists, and sports meds in the world so its safe to say that any pt or ortho will be very familiar with it.

ive never once said there is no value in strengthening the p.c. as part of a holistic approach to conditioning, but rather simply that it is not a valid recommendation in this case.

better hope no one takes your advice and calls a pt or ortho because then any doubt that is left in their mind that youre a total and complete fuktard will be completely removed.*

but dont feel bad though, youre somewhat of a celebrity here locally. working in the field i know lots of people in the medical community; and quite a few docs, orthos, nurses, sports med faculty & students, p.t. and o.t.s, and a couple of podiatrists have all gotten a real kick out of your postings in this thread. they all think youre a real hoot! :lol:

* as if there is no one you yourself havent succeded in convincing of this by now.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> so the guy who doesnt even understand the basic a&p of joints and calls the entire collective peer review journals and world renowned authorities in various disciplines idiots and quacks (because they are in disagreement with him) responds by simply howling _"im right, im right, im right"? _
> 
> by now, we expect nothing less from you.
> 
> ...


nope I say 99% of all people walk with toes pointed out. you called it intoeing not me did not use the term till you did. (you gotta improve those reading skills).Again sorry you are too stupid to realize you were thinking about pidgeon toed and not correct once again in your feeble attempt to discredit me. It's nice that you claimyour local med community is finding me a real "hoot' but alas all anyone who cares to read this thread can simple contact their local pt,ortho, or strenghth training guru and confer that all I have said is correct and with merit. 
Too bad the only thing you are good at is twisting around quotes to put new meaning to what the original sentence was stating. 
I did notivce that in your backhanded fashion you are changing your tune now that the whole world can simply find out what a quack you are in some of the things you have said.
You are such a high quality projectionist it is unbelievable. You insist that I am the one who is battling against scientific principles yet any ortho or pt in contact will know exactally of what I speak(you defy that the muscles align the body so you my idiot friend are the one attempting to discredit physiology and science)...... Also try to read a little better as I recommended for the OP to look to strengthen his PC not to correct the knee pain but to allow him to set up on his bike with his feet pointing foward into a natural position which may help any twisting he is doing with his foot that can cause the pain.
Like I have always maintained a properly aligned body is one of the athletes best protectors against injury.( a real hoot or are you and your friends really that stupid to say this is incorrect like you have been arguing here) Strengthening the PC will in fact align the foot(actually the entire leg but I assumed you understood that and now that I think about it you probably don't) more foward as he continues to improve his ham/quad ratio.
You have wasted this thread arguing real physiological principals scoffing them off as not. You have by in large attempted to disqualify the whole PT community with your misquoted texts and gibberish. Quit trying to project the Idea that I was doing this for it is you who attempts to defy common current and applied knowledge, not me.

Oh and trying to say it was me that is confused about intoeing/out toeing is simply pathetic I have always been referring to the OP as someone whose feet point outwards. (seems other posters understood as they did ask about this but it looks like Monoloser cannot follow along with simple layman terms the way everyone else out there can). You also may want to notice that using medical terminology(incorrectly by you of course) is really a cheesy way to feel superior when in fact most readers will easily understand layman terminology which is why it is used.
I don't write here to talk to you I write to an audience of backgrounds. You should learn how to do the same. 
I'd love to see a time where you could get your point across in your own words instead of quoting scientific text incorrectly. Try talking on these forums like someone who is teaching this so people can understand you and when you are making a heavy blunder(like thinking duck footed is intoeing) myself or others can catch you and bring you back to the same page.

My name is Monogod projection is my specialty and it is good (the whole reason I added to this thread in the first place) 
Oh and yeah I can see how the people of f88 will cause you to get your ass handed to you. You could never keep up no matter how superior you imagine yourself and your perceptions to be.

words of wisdom from monogod....
1 we are vegitarians by design... lmao
2 evolution does not exit... lmao
3 the bones control posture and gate not the muscles ... rotflmao
4 f88 arguments...lmao
and "I" am the one going against scientific principle???? lmao

It is clear to me and anyone else involved that my posts on this thread have been such that the Op should look to positioning first.(this was mentioned by other posters a long time ago in the first two pages so there is really no need to give him this advice again although I did a little later on in helping him set up to his bike a little better) I did add that 
it is possible he is a little dehydrated(while rare(pay attention to that word and try not to misquote you dullard) it could be so and another thread did in fact confir he does not drink enough water for what is recommended for his weight.. even though he insisted that he was not dehydrated). Also I went on to recommend something new to the thread which is strengthening his PC so that he could provide himself with better protection against injury in the future as well as others who may be reading this post. By the way back on page two another poster referenced his PT relative who helped him with his knee pain through strengthening and "technique" in his pedal stroke. A PT suggests strengthening also... imagine that.
Yup nothing I have said warrants an argument or is incorrect. Nothing I have stated goes against science. Only problem here is you and the pretend orthodoc having an inability to read and understand that which all have been easy to make out. 
Simplified for all:
Look to your positioning and cleat placement when knee pain erupts while cycling first. (refer to monogods diagram for cleat location and set yourself up so the feet point in their natural direction like when you walk if you can).
Next, if you toes point outward like most people then some simple strengthening exercises for the posterior chain can correct your highly probable quad/ham strength imbalance and point your feet(entire leg) in a more fowards position. Having your posterior chain stronger will allow you to :
1 keep your knees more on plain with your pedal stroke
2 improve power on the bike 
As a demonstration of the effects of a stronger posterior chain you can simply turn your leg in using your adductor muscle(the big muscle of the inner rear portion of your thigh) 
when doing so you will notice that your knees and entire leg point more foward. In pedaling and sports your legs will be facing along a more perpendicular plane therebye reducing stress on the knee and other subsequent joints. 
Remember that the above advice on Posterior chain development is for someone who walks with their toes pointing outward. If your toes do infact point fowards than your ham/quad ratio is probably close to 2:3 and while it can never hurt to strengthen the muscles of the pedal stroke it will not be necessary to do so to put your legs in a better perpendicular advantage to the pedal stroke if they already are in an idea position.

Yes every PT, strength and conditioning coach, and ortho will infact concur with the above advice so I fear not.

As I think about this I have a hard time believing that Monogod and his cronies can be this wrong.. so now I believe that while I was using the word foot throughout my posts if he did not infact realize that I was correcting the entire positioning of the leg (therebye turning the foot in). I am sorry to anyone involved if this has been a miscommunication on our part. I sure hope he has not been thinking all this time that I was referring to in/out toeing from the ankle and not the leg.(this is the only way I can understand what he is arguing about after all he does not know what duck footed means) If in fact monogod does know that I was correcting the entire leg by strengthening the posterior chain and has still been arguing with me about this then, yes, he in fact is an idiot.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> nope I say 99% of all people walk with toes pointed out. you called it intoeing not me did not use the term till you did. (you gotta improve those reading skills).


click the links in my last post and read your own words from your own posts yourself. YOU said in THIS POST"_ the duck footed walk of which about 99% of all people suffer from"_.

go ahead, read it for yourself and tell us how i misquoted that.

but now you insist that 99% of all people outtoe.

and please show us all where ive ever referred to walking with toes pointed out (outtoeing) as intoeing.



rounder said:


> I did notivce that in your backhanded fashion you are changing your tune


provide the conflicting quotes. oh wait, you cant. ive been consistent in my position the entire thread unlike you who has been all over the map.



rounder said:


> You insist that I am the one who is battling against scientific principles


i dont insist. i provide the scientific principles, findings and positions of the relative fields and you disagree and call them idiots in THIS POST by saying "_if you and your medical journals can not figure this out then you are all idiots and yes I disagree_".

but then again you think muscles stabilize and hold joints.



rounder said:


> you my idiot friend are the one attempting to discredit physiology and science)


says the "expert" who thinks muscles stabilize and hold joints, who has zero education in a/p/k, says all peer review journals wrong, and calls world renowned experts in various fields idiots.

yeah, youre certainly an authority on a/p/k. 



rounder said:


> Oh and trying to say it was me that is confused about intoeing/out toeing is simply pathetic


im not just saying it, ive proved it. here is the proof, and be sure to click the links...

you always use the term "duck footed" because you ARE a layman and are ignorant of the correct term as we saw clearly in THIS POST when you said in response to my continutal correction of your incorrect nomenclature "_thing here is you must be referring to something other than the duck footed walk of which about 99% of all people suffer from_." then you went on to say... "_Now the only possibility here is you and I are not discussing the same thing. As such I have assumed that your talk of in/out toeing had to be what you were referring to as duck feet or pidgeon toed. *Now I first called about this using the ternminology of duck feet. You changed to in/out toeing. Are we referring to the ame thing?*_"

those are YOUR WORDS, rounder, and youre not being misquoted.



rounder said:


> I have always been referring to the patient as someone whose feet point outwards.


no you havent.

in THIS POST you said to the op "_If your posterior chain is not up to strength you will be "duck" footed_."

in THIS POST you said "_By this I mean you more than likely walk duck footed_". now you contend it has been your position all along that his feet have pointed out. youre such an idiot you cant even remember what youve said! :lol:

and in THIS POST where the patient point blank told you that you were wrong when he said "_I might like to point out that I when I walk my feet are not toed in or toed out_".



rounder said:


> words of wisdom from monogod....
> 1 we are vegitarians by design... lmao
> 2 evolution does not exit... lmao
> 3 the bones control posture and gate not the muscles ... rotflmao


way off topic, so i wont spend much time other than to say...

not understanding the human anatomy or physiology and even the plethora of information given regarding the topic given to you in THIS POST of course you disagree with point #1. no surprising since you think muscles stabilize and hold joints!

micro evolution does exist. however, there is zero proof of macro, stellar, organic, or chemical evolution. if you think otherwise start a thread and present it. they are all simply unproven THEORIES.

ive never said the bones control posture and gait. i said, and provided corroborating evidence, that skeletal pathologies are responsible for virtually all intoeing and provided evidenciary proof.



rounder said:


> it is possible he is a little dehydrated(while rare it could be so and another thread did in fact confir he does not drink enough water for what is recommended for his weight.. even though he insisted that he was not dehydrated).


no, it is NOT possible he is a little dehydrated, and this was explained why in THIS POST when i responded with "_because the pain is acute and transient it is highly unlikely that dehydration would be the cause of the isolated joint pain. acute dehydration will usually result in headache first, followed by systemic joint pain rather than isolated joint pain. yes, histamine is released during chronic dehydration also, but again headache is usually one of the first results followed by systemic joint pain and aches and the pain will not be isolated and transient. also, histamine release will simply cause aching in the joints rather than the type of pain that timeless described.

histamine (and calcium) is also released during cell breakdown caused by injury (including overuse), and unless immediately stretched FOLLOWING the exercise the muscles release leukotrienes which cause muscle contracture resulting in muscle spasms, but not isolated joint pain. but again, stretching was suggested because it was a possibility_."

you know nothing, and repeatedly demonstrate your profound ignorance. only you know why.



rounder said:


> Yup nothing I have said warrants an argument or is incorrect. Nothing I have stated goes against science.


keep on saying that. the evidence proves otherwise.



rounder said:


> Next, if you toes point outward like most people


outtoeing is far less common than intoeing in both adults and children.

in adults the cause is virtually always skeletal in nature, as has been clearly demonstrated.



rounder said:


> Remember that the above advice on Posterior chain development is for someone who walks with their toes pointing outward.


thats not what you said HERE when you stated _"If your posterior chain is not up to strength you will be "duck" footed."._

and thats not what you said HERE either when you said "_DUCK FOOTED WALK IS DUE TO A DISCREPANCY IN MUSCULAR BALANCE BETWEEN THE POSTERIOR CHAIN_".

your own words are what discredit you. all i have to do at this point is cut and paste.

perhaps now would be a good time to just let this thread die, dontcha think?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

sorry, didnt see this last little bit of tripe...



rounder said:


> As I think about this I have a hard time believing that Monogod and his cronies can be this wrong.. so now I believe that while I was using the word foot throughout my posts if he did not infact realize that I was correcting the entire positioning of the leg (therebye turning the foot in).


yes. i understood exactly what you are saying and am thoroughly familiar with human a&p.

all youve done by saying this is to demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that you dont understand the information shared with you.

in adults, when there is in/out toeing present it is generally from skeletal deformations in the hips/legs. although this has been corroborated from several different disciplines of science and peer review journals you insist that they are all wrong. 

it has also been stated repeatedly in THIS POST and others that simply forcing the feet out of an in/out toe position by strengthening the p.c. does nothing to address the core etiology.



rounder said:


> I am sorry to anyone involved if this has been a miscommunication on our part. I sure hope he has not been thinking all this time that I was referring to in/out toeing from the ankle and not the leg.


not half as sorry as the forum is that you insist on continually posting on this topic.

the fact that you fail repeatedly to comprehend the fact that i have been addressing this very issue is not lost on any of us.



rounder said:


> this is the only way I can understand what he is arguing about


because of your repeated display of abysmal reading comprehension combined with profound ignorance of science, medicine, a/p/k, podiatry, and orthopaedics it is highly unlikely you COULD understand any information ive shared with you.



rounder said:


> If in fact monogod does know that I was correcting the entire leg by strengthening the posterior chain and has still been arguing with me about this then, yes, he in fact is an idiot.


as has been clearly shown (not simply because i say so) the majority of in/out toeing is resultant from skeletal imbalance/pathology and/or is compensatory in measure; thus strengthening the p.c. does nothing but put a band-aid on the symptom but does not address the root etiology.

you have yet to offer any contrasting other than "theyre idiots" and "im right and theyre wrong" and "youre an idiot because you disagree with me" and "im right because im a strength coach" and "im right because i make $300 an hour" and "im right because i live in a nice house" and "peer review journals are all wrong" and so on and so forth.

conversely, i dont refer to you as an idiot simply because you disagree with me. everyone is entitled to their own opinions. instead, i call you an idiot because you demonstrate profound ignorance in a/p/k; and because you post websites which you think bolsters your position but in fact makes you look even more idiotic because it has nothing to do with the topic and you dont even understand the webpage you yourself posted; and because you call proven science "junk science", and because you demonstrate a profound incapability of comprehending even the most simple and basic explanations; and because you change your story every few posts; and because you cant even remember what you wrote and insist you never said it even when confronted with YOUR OWN WORDS.

your tin foil hat is in the mail.


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## limoguy (Nov 10, 2007)

I have been reading this and lurking the boards for some time.
I was wondering in all this arguing here isn't some one who walks with their toes pointed out referred to as having duck feet?
then isn't someone with their toes pointed in referred to as pidgeon toed?
I always thought that is what is meant by the two. Now I don't have anything to do with wat either of you 2 do for a living but you both have me confused here.
Rounder is saying that toes out is duck footed and Monogod is saying that toes in is duckfooted?
Monogod are you sure of that?


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## djcrb9 (Jan 13, 2004)

limoguy said:


> I have been reading this and lurking the boards for some time.
> I was wondering in all this arguing here isn't some one who walks with their toes pointed out referred to as having duck feet?
> then isn't someone with their toes pointed in referred to as pidgeon toed?
> I always thought that is what is meant by the two. Now I don't have anything to do with wat either of you 2 do for a living but you both have me confused here.
> ...


duck·footed (fo̵ot′id)

adjective

1. having the hind toe pointing forward, as on a duck's foot: said of fowl
2. having the feet turned outward; flat-footed ()

adverb

with the feet turned outward

http://www.yourdictionary.com/duckfooted


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## limoguy (Nov 10, 2007)

djcrb9 said:


> duck·footed (fo?ot?id)
> 
> adjective
> 
> ...


 ok so thats what I thought. 
well here it goes then. 
Monogod I think you are wrong about rounders lack of knowledge on the idea that one can strengthen the posterior chain and straighten the way ones feet line up when they walk. I am living proof that it does indeed happen. 
Four years ago I was 31 years old. I decided to add weight training to my mountainbiking. After reasearching some ways to do it to help with my cycling I came across kettlebells. I started doing the snatch, swing, and, clean and press exercises. These exercises target the posterior chain mostly but are supposed to work all the bodies muscles as well.
Anyway the results have been amazing! I built up my legs quickly and easily and It sure has helped my riding. the back of my legs are nice and thick as opposed to non existent like they were before.
Here's my point:
Before I weight trained my feet pointed outward like a duck. I'd say a 30 degree angle or so. Now I walk with my feet dead straight or maybe slightly pidgeon toed. After 31 years of walking duck footed the training changed that. So if the strengthening of my posterior chain changed the way I walk, how is it that Rounder is wrong about this? 
I did also read an article on a strength training website that did mention the same thing.
I'll see if I can find it (it's been years).

why arent my paragraphs indented? they are when i write this but not when I hit save. Sorry this is not intentional,

heres an article http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=462481&cr= in it are links to one and two. seems to me to be all about postural alignment and how to fix through proper training of the muscles stretching etc.
I did not read very far to see if this is directly related to what happened to my postural changes but it is clear that these guys are knowing of which they speak and they seem to concur that posture is effected by imbalance in musculature like Rounder has been saying.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> click the links in my last post and read your own words from your own posts yourself. YOU said in THIS POST"_ the duck footed walk of which about 99% of all people suffer from"_.
> 
> go ahead, read it for yourself and tell us how i misquoted that.
> 
> ...


 yup it is in evidence as above that you are indeed confused ... duck footed is when the toes point out not in retard.
you obviously can not walk through a crowded area and count. for the hell of it today I counted 19 out of 20 people that I observed in a row that walk with their feet pointing out. 
you have been insisting that someones feet point out due to skeletal and I have said no it is due to strength imbalances!!!

yes most everyone out there walks with their feet pointing out. See post below. muscles do not provide streuctural alignment...see post below. Also if average out toe is12-18 deg then the average person has skleletal problems. You are a retarded dork. 
My words do not discredit me at all. Everything I say still results in the same conclusion... that you can not follow along or read a simple thread. Also one little obscure quote in a journal without the entire content for review is not any evidence but a trite, clever way to attempt to get you to seem right. I'll just use the web and other authorities to clear up your obvious lack of education in physiology... see below.

hell.. just you confusing duck walking as in- toeing is good enough to discredit you.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

limoguy said:


> ok so thats what I thought.
> well here it goes then.
> Monogod I think you are wrong about rounders lack of knowledge on the idea that one can strengthen the posterior chain and straighten the way ones feet line up when they walk. I am living proof that it does indeed happen.
> Four years ago I was 31 years old. I decided to add weight training to my mountainbiking. After reasearching some ways to do it to help with my cycling I came across kettlebells. I started doing the snatch, swing, and, clean and press exercises. These exercises target the posterior chain mostly but are supposed to work all the bodies muscles as well.
> ...


finally someone with a bit of reason on this thread. Hey nice reference by the way.

Monogod you need to really put to rest your stupid notion that muscles do not control posture. Also I believe you did try to say that strengthening the muscles won't help with injury. again you are wrong.:thumbsup:

My name is monogod ad I is edjumucated in a fancy school aun everythin.....


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

I think I'll reference from this site as well
heres a good one http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459279&cr=

oh look a strength trainer concurring that hamstring development will help stabilize and strengthen the knee. Guess he must not know anything about physiology either.
Actually... Christian is a very renowned coach in the field.

"complexity is the language of the simple minds" classic and fits monogod to a tee.
here more on the adductors http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459552&cr=
functions and knee pain causation if weak.
heres one about a book on posture http://www.perfectpostureprogram.com/ scroll to duck feet. oh my gosh usual causes... weak or tight hip rotator muscles.(strengthened through PC exercises all part of the posterior chain)

found info on web that states average toe out angle in adults is 12-18 deg. Must mean toe out is not as rare as your science reference makes it out to be. Also, other books on posture seem to have exercises and stretches for toe out ...how do you exercise and stretch to correct a skeletal etiology there Monogod? 
so the web, a call to a local PT , ortho, or strength and conditioning coach will prove that muscles are in fact involved in which ways the toes point foward. Case closed dude. stop now you have already sunk soo far.

Should of done this ages ago... you are so easy to slap around.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> Monogod you need to really put to rest your stupid notion that muscles do not control posture. Also I believe you did try to say that strengthening the muscles won't help with injury. again you are wrong.


ive never said either one, rounder. nice try.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> I think I'll reference from this site as well
> heres a good one http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459279&cr=
> 
> oh look a strength trainer concurring that hamstring development will help stabilize and strengthen the knee. Guess he must not know anything about physiology either.
> ...


no, the normal position of the feet is NOT straight forward. ive never said otherwise. in/out toeing is when the angle is OUTSIDE the range of norm, and each describe the direction of deviation from norm.

that still does not mean that most people outtoe because their feet are slightly turned out. it means that most people have a NORMAL posture. get it?

you have insisted that because most peoples feet point slightly out that they outtoe. i have stated repeatedly you were incorrect in saying this. so youve simply discredited your assertion by giving exact parameters.

you stated that you routinely get peoples feet slightly pidgeon (sic) toed. so (as ive told you before) when you are forcing your clients feet into this position (which is less than 10 degrees out of midline) then you are intentionally causing them to deviate from the norm. this is wrong, and you shouldnt be doing it.

so in fact, it sounds like you are taking people with normal posture and making them intoe and patting yourself on the back for a job well done. 

and even if they do outtoe, why are you forcing their feet past normal?

so as has been stated previously more people intoe (feet pointed towards midline, outside norm range) than outtoe (feet pointed away from midline, outside norm range).

also, the article states "_ those of you that suffer from patellofemoral pain syndrome might be interested to note that weak adductors are one of several potential causes for your persistent knee troubles_." persistent knee troubles are also known as CHRONIC knee troubles. so no, this article does not concur with your insistence that transient knee pain sometimes months between presentation is caused by weak adductors.

in fact, ive stated the very same thing your referrence did when you insisted that TRANSIENT pain was caused by p.c. imbalance. my response in THIS POST was "_*if someone has muscular imbalance such that there is marked deformity in gait, then the pain associated with cycling would be CHRONIC and would most likely have knee pain associated with all his other walking/activities as well*_", which he did not mention. he isolated it to an occurrence every few months with a duration of a couple of days. no matter how you slice it that simply does not even remotely suggest musculature imbalance.

also, your referrence mentioned patelleofemoral pain syndrome as a cause of chronic knee pain. if you recall, in THIS POST when asking specific questions of the op (rather than simply forcing an etiology on him, as you did) i said "_because there are several factors that play into overuse syndrome of the knee I asked these questions in an attempt to determine if the pain was perhaps from chondromalacia, chrondromalacia patella, prepatellar bursitis, prepatellar subluxation, *patelleofemoral pain syndrome*, partial tear or overstress of either of the menisci, quad tendinitis, patellar tendinitis, or i.t. band friction syndrome; with *patelleofemoral pain syndrome *and i.t. band syndrome among the most common._

resultant to his answers, patelleofemoral pain syndrome was excluded.

the bottom line is that you were, and still are, wrong in insisting that transient knee pain is the result of p.c. imbalance.

so no, this does nothing to support your original insistence that the ops knee pain was caused by p.c. imbalance.

also, as ive stated NUMEROUS times it is possible to FORCE the feet into a different position through muscular strengthening, but that does not address the core etiology. geez, youre too dense to see that in part i was agreeing with you by saying its possible to force the feet into a different position, but was disagreeing that the cause was due strictly to muscular imbalance. see the difference?

even though forcing the feet into a proper position addresses the symptom it does not mean that musculature imbalance was necessarily the cause. get it?

i have also repeated that muscular training as part of a complete fitness program is a great idea, p.c. included. so no one has ever argued with you that it is not important to train for flexibility or strength or that they are of no importance to an athlete.

and none of this changes the fact that you think joints are held together with muscles.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

djcrb9 said:


> duck·footed (fo̵ot′id)
> 
> adjective
> 
> ...


nope, didnt know that because ive never heard that term, we dont use that term professionally or casually, nor were we taught that term, nor have i ever heard a paitient, p.t., or ortho use that term.

so thanks for the clarification dj. for once you added something of substance to a thread! :thumbsup:

thus, when rounder said "pigeon toed or duck footed" my assumption was he was using them interchangably. excellent example of why one should never assume.

so rounder, my apologies for my comments resultant to the miscommunication and i retract them.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

limoguy said:


> Before I weight trained my feet pointed outward like a duck. I'd say a 30 degree angle or so. Now I walk with my feet dead straight or maybe slightly pidgeon toed.


no offense meant here, but youve traded one posture defect for another.



limoguy said:


> So if the strengthening of my posterior chain changed the way I walk, how is it that Rounder is wrong about this?


ive never said that he was wrong that it is possible to change the degree of out/in toeing through strength training. never. not once. nor did i even hint at it. i said in doing so it is generally addressing a symptom and not the root cause.

i have stated repeatedly that generally in/out toeing in adults is skeletal in nature; and that it is possible to force the foot into a normal position through strength training.

so yes, rounder is correcting the symptom by forcing the feet straight and i have NEVER stated otherwise. what i have disagreed with him on, and provided ample proof of, is that the ROOT CAUSE was muscular imbalance.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> nope, didnt know that because ive never heard that term, we dont use that term professionally or casually, nor were we taught that term, nor have i ever heard a paitient, p.t., or ortho use that term.
> 
> so thanks for the clarification dj. for once you added something of substance to a thread! :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Lets see... did not hear the term duck footed and your in your 30's... bullchit buddy... you were clearly wrong and did not know the difference. but appology accepted.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> no offense meant here, but youve traded one posture defect for another.
> 
> ive never said that he was wrong that it is possible to change the degree of out/in toeing through strength training. never. not once. nor did i even hint at it. i said in doing so it is generally addressing a symptom and not the root cause.
> 
> ...


first turning your feet into a more athletic position is not a "defect" it is a result of proper strength balance between musculature of the leg. Strengthening the legs does not force the feet to position themselves differently it does so because of muscle physiology which you have been made clear to know nothing about.

finally the more perpendicular to the pedals your feet face the better for tracking of the knee the more protection towards pain and injury. it is a positive way to help with knee pain and does indeed have a place in the recovery and prevention of possible knee pain for the OP and anyone else researching this thread.

I "am correcting the symptom by forcing the feet straight" and you have never stated otherwise??!!! I am not forcing anything I am correcting. Also according to your last umpteen posts you attempted to tell everyone that I know nothing and my strengthening of the PC will not turn the feet fowards??!!!
You sure don't actually read what you write do you???!!!
Bow out gracefully now ... oh wait it's too late for that.


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## limoguy (Nov 10, 2007)

monogod said:


> no offense meant here, but youve traded one posture defect for another.


no offense taken.
I am very proud to be in the best shape of my life and I am in my mid thirties. I now walk and look more like the pro athlete clients I pick up than the out of shape businessmen like i used to.(I am an executive chauffeur)
One question though: As I now walk and look more like an athlete, are you saying that pro athletes are posturally defective???
I would consider their muscular development and posture to be the ideal myself.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> no, the normal position of the feet is NOT straight forward. ive never said otherwise. in/out toeing is when the angle is OUTSIDE the range of norm, and each describe the direction of deviation from norm.
> 
> that still does not mean that most people outtoe because their feet are slightly turned out. it means that most people have a NORMAL posture. get it?
> 
> ...


sorry to say that when a paramater says 12-18 deg of outtoeing this in fact means outtoeing. They would not say outtoeing if it was not outtoeing. a perfect gate will have zero deg of out or in toeing. The AVERAGE is 12-18 deg not the ideal... get it? 
The average person tends to be a pronator, but, as your a runner , you know that's not the ideal don't you.
If the average person OUTTOES 12-18 deg, then this does in fact prove what I have stated before that more people outtoe that any other way of walking.
I cannot believe you are reaching like this to try not to admit you were wrong here.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> ive never said either one, rounder. nice try.


 Have you not paid attention to you arguments here??!! WTF dude you have been insisting that I can not change outtoe on a person by strengthening their posterior chain!
You even said I know nothing of physiology ,etc. because I took this stand.
As proven, I have been correct all this time. Get over yourself and your little ego and come to grips that you have been wrong here.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> you stated that you routinely get peoples feet slightly pidgeon (sic) toed. so (as ive told you before) when you are forcing your clients feet into this position (which is less than 10 degrees out of midline) then you are intentionally causing them to deviate from the norm. this is wrong, and you shouldnt be doing it.
> 
> so in fact, it sounds like you are taking people with normal posture and making them intoe and patting yourself on the back for a job well done.
> 
> and even if they do outtoe, why are you forcing their feet past normal?


I do not FORCE anything.

Pay attention here you might learn something if your ego will get out of the way....
I increase the strength of an athletes posterior chain to improve sports performance. If a prospective athletes ham/quad ratio is below 2:3 inevitably once the PC is strengthend to 2:3 ratio the athletes feet will turn to parallel within a couple degrees. 
Now notice the walk of say a football player... occasionally toe in but near always within a deg or two of zero. This is due to the PC being even stronger than 2:3 to the quads. 
the average person is often very far from a 2:3 ham/quad ratio. The average person outtoes from zero degrees. the average person outtoes 12-18 degrees. 
A professional athlete is not average. Should one want to become good at athletics they will inevitably need to become above average in their ham/quad ratio. yup they will need to strengthen their PC to get them to 2:3 ratio or they will never be able to compete on a high caliber athletic level. 
This is a mountainbike forum where people are involved in athletics of the legs. It would behoove anyone interested in improvement from injury or just plain getting faster to look to strengthen their PC. my references and that limoguy will do nicely here so refer to them.

Another thing the average adult outtoes12-18 deg. They actually progress out to 12-18 degrees as they age from a child into adulthood. this is due to the nature of people not engaging their PC near as much as when younger. Kids run and play hard. As they age
other activities take over and many exercise a lot less intensely than they once were. Their bodys will detrain and as the quads are continually used more (walking and pedaling a bike only on the downstroke for instance) the childs feet will start to outtoe.
It is very rare for a very young child to outtoe(as I stated long ago). The whole reason for outtoeing is along the same limes of use it or loose it. You don't use your flexibility and you loose it....you don't use your PC you also loose it. 
My son outtoes at 12 years of age. He developed this through inactivity of the PC. He did not outtoe at all when he was 5.


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## chris-crisis (Jul 16, 2007)

That t-nation website is fantastic. I had given up on this post having anything useful in it but all of a sudden something really useful pops up.

I am 44 - used to run with duck feet and do very well (in 10km fun runs etc used to come half way between the winning male and winning female and I recognised a few of the females names from the olypmics on TV) however at about age 23 could not hardly run due to sore toes. At age 32 found out about orthotics and got a pair. Found my riding improved a lot but my feet still hurt too much to run. I slowly improved but could still never run more than 10km and also found soccer really hurt my knees. Earlier this year I met a gym instructor who said orthotics are basically treating the symptoms the wrong way and I should be doing stretches and strength exercises to fix my form rather than using orthotics to change the feet. To prove a point rather than have me walk on a treadmill with a video camera like the podiatrists do he got me to sprint barefooted and guess what - perfect form and no flat feet. Now all I have to is strengthen my PC muscles to have perfect form all the time rather than just sprinting. Another problem is a very sore knee playing soccer so I tried that barefooted and while the ball stung my foot I also noticed much less knee problems probably due to better form in the feet.

Now I am running in Vibram five toes shoes - almost like not having shoes on and going to the gym in barefeet - my gym must be the only one where the instructor insists on bare feet to see peoples form - every other gym I know of has a no shoes - no entry policy.

I still wear my orthotics when bike riding but wearing them less for walking and finding much less problems than before. What I am worried about is my 11 year old son. I took him to the podiatrists 4 years ago worried he might end up with really sore feet like me and a lifetime of pain during sport. I really want him to do exercise to improve himself but he refused to stretch properly or do specific exercises properly - he just wants to ride his bike or play cricket or soccer and he is getting more duck footed all the time.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

chris-crisis said:


> That t-nation website is fantastic. I had given up on this post having anything useful in it but all of a sudden something really useful pops up.
> 
> I am 44 - used to run with duck feet and do very well (in 10km fun runs etc used to come half way between the winning male and winning female and I recognised a few of the females names from the olypmics on TV) however at about age 23 could not hardly run due to sore toes. At age 32 found out about orthotics and got a pair. Found my riding improved a lot but my feet still hurt too much to run. I slowly improved but could still never run more than 10km and also found soccer really hurt my knees. Earlier this year I met a gym instructor who said orthotics are basically treating the symptoms the wrong way and I should be doing stretches and strength exercises to fix my form rather than using orthotics to change the feet. To prove a point rather than have me walk on a treadmill with a video camera like the podiatrists do he got me to sprint barefooted and guess what - perfect form and no flat feet. Now all I have to is strengthen my PC muscles to have perfect form all the time rather than just sprinting. Another problem is a very sore knee playing soccer so I tried that barefooted and while the ball stung my foot I also noticed much less knee problems probably due to better form in the feet.
> 
> ...


this is what I've been trying to say throughout this post. thanks for your contribution and i'm sure in no time you will find yourself in form and pain free.


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## otis24 (Apr 1, 2004)

I've been thinking of getting my bike fitted. I've been riding a Turner Burner for 2 years with the stem from my old specialized s-works hardtail. Something tells me a differant stem might be better. While I'm at it my cleats are worn out and might get those fitted too when I put the new ones on. Any idea how much a fit usually costs? And any recomendations for shops that will do a good job of it in the Bay Area, CA?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

limoguy said:


> One question though: As I now walk and look more like an athlete, are you saying that pro athletes are posturally defective???


if they are walking with an intoe gait, that is with the toes pointed inwards towards the saggital plane discection line (a.k.a. pigeon toed), then yes that is a postural defect.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> dude you have been insisting that I can not change outtoe on a person by strengthening their posterior chain!


i have never stated that.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

rounder said:


> sorry to say that when a paramater says 12-18 deg of outtoeing this in fact means outtoeing. They would not say outtoeing if it was not outtoeing. a perfect gate will have zero deg of out or in toeing. The AVERAGE is 12-18 deg not the ideal... get it?
> 
> If the average person OUTTOES 12-18 deg, then this does in fact prove what I have stated before that more people outtoe that any other way of walking.
> I cannot believe you are reaching like this to try not to admit you were wrong here.


if you are using "they" in referrence to the medical community, then it is incorrect to state that "they" call outtoeing any variance from parallel to saggital plane.

the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons, along with the American Orthopaedic Foot & Ankle Society define "outtoeing" thusly: "_If the feet angle out *excessively* this is called outtoeing_." (emphasis mine) source

conversely, you define "outtoeing" as any variance from zero degree alignment to the saggital plane.

so when i use "outtoe" i am using it in the commonly accepted vernacular within the medical community.

it should be noted that the foot turning out slightly from the saggital plane is not considered a postural defect. also, due to skeletal development; variations in the hip/pelvis; individual knee physiology; as well as in the femur and tibia shape and length there are variations in how much the foot will turn in or out. a slight amount of toe out is not a postural defect in need of correction nor does it increase the risk of injury to the ankle or knee nor does it carry with it a generalized weakness or performance deficeit.

a biped is more stable while standing and walking with the tips of the toes turned slightly away from the saggital plane, which is why most peoples feet do so. the faster the gait, generally the angle of turn out will decrease. (simple kinetics/biomechanics of balance vs. velocity) this causes no problem when the angle of foot turn out in relation to saggital plane is minor, and is not intrinsically indicative of a muscular imbalance. and this has been my position the entire time.

so when i use "outtoe" i am doing so in the context of its commonly accepted meaning within the medical community; while conversely when you use outtoe, you are clearly using it OUTSIDE the normal, accepted meaning of the term by referring to even the slightest variance of feet parallel to the saggital plane and calling it a postural defect.

its not a real big deal though. this type of miscommunication is common between laymen and professionals, and communication breakdown occurs when the two are using the same terms in different contexts. happens all the time.



rounder said:


> The average person tends to be a pronator, but, as your a runner , you know that's not the ideal don't you.


actually, this is not true.

first of all, there are three types of pronation:


NEUTRAL 
OVER
UNDER

because i understand a/p/k i know that EVERYONE pronates and that pronation is 100% normal and is 100% the ideal. why? because pronation is nothing more than the normal action of the foot rolling from the heel to the ball during bipedal locomotion.

simply using "pronation" by default refers to neutral pronation; while overpronation is when the foot rolls too much to the inside, and underpronation is when the foot rolls too much to the outside

so in truth, pronation is vital in reducing the impact on the foot during motion by preventing the foot from striking flat on the ground; and those who do not pronate in any form (neutral, over, or under) have a serious gait pathology and are at immediate risk for severe injury.

so while virtually ALL runners and walkers pronate, underpronation is the most common form of variance from neutral in both.

regarding the miscommunication issues regarding outtoeing and postural defects; perhaps the fault is mine for not making my position clearer, or providing definitions for any medical terminology i was using when it became clear i was not dealing with a medical professional.

instead i let myself be drawn into a flame war with a self confessed troll.*

jeffscott, you were right. thanks for the censure.

*"_God I was being such a troll but it was good_" - rounder
*"_I want to put this up as a stickie How to troll someone crazy_" - rounder


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

chris-crisis said:


> That t-nation website is fantastic. I had given up on this post having anything useful in it but all of a sudden something really useful pops up.
> 
> I am 44 - used to run with duck feet and do very well (in 10km fun runs etc used to come half way between the winning male and winning female and I recognised a few of the females names from the olypmics on TV) however at about age 23 could not hardly run due to sore toes. At age 32 found out about orthotics and got a pair. Found my riding improved a lot but my feet still hurt too much to run. I slowly improved but could still never run more than 10km and also found soccer really hurt my knees. Earlier this year I met a gym instructor who said orthotics are basically treating the symptoms the wrong way and I should be doing stretches and strength exercises to fix my form rather than using orthotics to change the feet. To prove a point rather than have me walk on a treadmill with a video camera like the podiatrists do he got me to sprint barefooted and guess what - perfect form and no flat feet. Now all I have to is strengthen my PC muscles to have perfect form all the time rather than just sprinting. Another problem is a very sore knee playing soccer so I tried that barefooted and while the ball stung my foot I also noticed much less knee problems probably due to better form in the feet.
> 
> ...


no one in this entire thread has suggested orthotics to correct in/out toeing.

no one in this entire thread has suggested orthotics to correct ANY postural or gait pathology while walking or running.

in response to the op's original complaint of knee pain WHILE CYCLING, and resultant to asking a myriad of questions, bg shoes were suggested as a rung in an increasingly complex ladder of treatment modalities. they were not a first suggestion, nor were they the only, nor were they presented as a silver bullet, and many treatment options were suggested prior to, and in combination with, trying the bg shoes.

the body geometry shoes and orthotics correct an anatomical/biomechanical varus/valgus misalignment WHILE CYCLING with wedges and metatarsal buttons to properly align the foot/tibia/knee and distribute weight among the metatarsals. thus, they DO actually address they root cause of the misalignment rather than simply respond to a symptom.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

otis24 said:


> I've been thinking of getting my bike fitted. I've been riding a Turner Burner for 2 years with the stem from my old specialized s-works hardtail. Something tells me a differant stem might be better. While I'm at it my cleats are worn out and might get those fitted too when I put the new ones on. Any idea how much a fit usually costs? And any recomendations for shops that will do a good job of it in the Bay Area, CA?


you should ABSOLUTELY have your bike fitted to you. you will ride faster, farther, stronger, and decrease the likelyhood of injury.

despite the fact that it is now becoming mainstream it is not a new science, nor is it junk science. riders and teams have been doing it for close to 100 years.

expect to spend $150-200 and a couple of hours for the upper level bike fit with computerized analysis and/or computrainer.

curtis cramblett is a physical therapist and licensed cycle coach who offers a complete bike fit in the bay area. he is very skilled, has an excellent reputation, and delivers results. click here for locations and his contact number.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

*to recap...*

because rounder has set up so many strawmen and produced so many red herrings; and because it seems he would rather have a flame war than stay on topic (which i, admittedly, got sucked into) i will simply respond to all the rest of his posts by saying this...

lets keep in mind that the op asked for advice on how to address short duration (a couple of days) knee pain transient in nature (months between presentation).

in response to this query, rounder gave many opinions.

as a trained medical professional with experience in the field & working towards a doctorate in sports kinesiology/physiology, with training/experience in bike fitting and cycling physiology/biomechanics; it is mho that he provided erroneous advice/information by stating:


this was caused by pc imbalance
this was caused by dehydration
99% of people have a postural defect in regards to foot position relational to saggital plane
99% of all podiatal postural defects in adults are the result of pc imbalance
the op had a postural defect in regards to foot position relational to saggital plane
intoeing (pigeon toe) is the ideal/desirable gait, and one should strive to achieve it
body geometry shoes are dangerous to wear & cause and/or increase the possibility of injury
body geometry shoes are junk science
accepted science is wrong while "trainers" with no formal educational/medical/scientific background are right and on the cutting edge
peer review journals are wrong and written by idiots
pronation is not ideal/desirable
muscles hold joints together
on the other hand he was correct in stating:

cleat placement should be addressed
that it would hurt nothing for the op to strengthen his pc
that strength training increases performance and decreases likelyhood of injury
podiatal postural defects of muscular etiology are resolved through strength training
foot position relational to saggital plane can be altered via strength training regardless of etiology
that i am wicked smart

i have never disagreed with him on the latter list, but will always disagree with him on the former list; just as i will disagree from an a/p/k standpoint with his actions he boasted of which consist of causing people to intoe through strength training.

thus, there is no purpose in continuing to argue any of these points.

rounder deserves respect no matter what his position is, and i have been wrong to refer to him as an idiot, moron, fuktard, and other derogatory comments in response to his posting erroneous information and/or not understanding information that was presented. getting sucked into a flame war by a troll is no excuse for reciprocating poor personal behavior.

my apologies.


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## cocheese (Jan 12, 2004)

I have tried to read all of this post, but I had to stop about half way through because I just couldn't handle the tennis match of sorts. 

Anyway, I have bad knees too. They are both aggrivated by riding. I have had a pro bike fitting, have the BG shoes, stretch religously, and do strengthening exercises. I find that all of this has helped some but has not gotten rid of the pain 100%. I have had an MRI of my left knee which came out clean, but the dr. says that they are not perfect and there is still a chance that something is wrong in there that may need to be fixed. After all is said and done and many years of PT and dr. visits, I have decided to have it scoped. The dr. says that it sounds like a classic meniscal issue. I am using this as a last resort after I have exhausted every other avenue. There is a chance that the dr. will see that there is nothing wrong with my knee. At least at that point I will KNOW. At this point, the not knowing and trying everything has been kind of frustrating to say the least.


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## cocheese (Jan 12, 2004)

What is a "pc" imbalance again?

Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

cocheese said:


> What is a "pc" imbalance again?
> 
> Thanks! :thumbsup:


pc=posterior chain.

its what my "colleague" (and i use that term EXTREMELY loosely) incorrectly insisted is the cause of virtually all knee problems as well as virtually all in/out toeing.

unfortunately he repeatedly incorrectly identified the extensor chain as the pc chain. the pc chain runs from the sub occipital muscles at the base of the neck to the big toe muscles. in many cases there is some degree of imbalance unless one has a comprehensive, balanced strength training regimen. however, the way one brings balance to the pc is to strengthen the extensor chain, which involves strengthening of the glutes, hamstrings and erector spinae.

although most everyone benefits from strengthening the extensor chain to bring more balance to the pc, as these are the core muscles that control our posture, it is not the root cause of virtually all foot/knee/back issues as some would have us to believe.

thats the quick version. :thumbsup:


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> [*]this was caused by pc imbalance
> [*]this was caused by dehydration
> [*]99% of people have a postural defect in regards to foot position relational to saggital plane
> [*]99% of all podiatal postural defects in adults are the result of pc imbalance
> ...


As alway you are free to disagree as all I ever did was point out things that may be the cause of but often overlooked by those that may not even know what pidgeon toed means....

As a more successful professional I do not care that a student disagrees with me .... I just hope you don't become a mindless drone (all evidence to the contrary) that thinks his silly little education is the be all end all in sports success...


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> the body geometry shoes and orthotics correct an anatomical/biomechanical varus/valgus misalignment WHILE CYCLING with wedges and metatarsal buttons to properly align the foot/tibia/knee and distribute weight among the metatarsals. thus, they DO actually address they root cause of the misalignment rather than simply respond to a symptom.


No they are just a band aid masking the REAL cause of the misalignment.... Which as you seem unable to comprehend is more than likely muscular in nature!


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> pc=posterior chain.
> 
> unfortunately he repeatedly incorrectly identified the extensor chain as the pc chain. the pc chain runs from the sub occipital muscles at the base of the neck to the big toe muscles. in many cases there is some degree of imbalance unless one has a comprehensive, balanced strength training regimen. however, the way one brings balance to the pc is to strengthen the extensor chain, which involves strengthening of the glutes, hamstrings and erector spinae.
> 
> ...


Oops once again....everyone benefits from training the entire posterior chain and it is thre root cause of virtually all SPORTS related foot/knee/back issues from amateur athletes such as the ones that post on this board. (weight and fit factors may be involved)


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> no offense meant here, but youve traded one posture defect for another.
> 
> ive never said that he was wrong that it is possible to change the degree of out/in toeing through strength training. never. not once. nor did i even hint at it. i said in doing so it is generally addressing a symptom and not the root cause.
> 
> ...


And you are wrong!!!! It is not skeletal... Quit being such a mental midget.


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> conversely, you define "outtoeing" as any variance from zero degree alignment to the saggital plane.
> 
> so when i use "outtoe" i am using it in the commonly accepted vernacular within the medical community.
> 
> ...


Blah blah blah ... you can try to state your inability to communicate as a misunderstanding but really it boils down to your inability as nothing more than a student to try to cover up your inability to understand strength... muscle balance....and things like Pidgeon toed.... Duck toed...Overpronation etc....


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

Monogod you really need to learn how a persons gate , footstrike, muscular condition are linked to form problems while doing something as simple as pedaling a bicycle.
Once you do then you may have a varience for imput into this thread but to disagree with me is simple just your naive ego attempting to once again believe that your way it "THE" way and is the correct way. sorry i have not visited this site since Nov. but contractual obligations have kept me away from recreation for a while.... you last comments on this thread are simply backpedalling your completely incorrect arguments towards me.... your silly little charades are easily understood by me and I feel for you... why .... because at your age you should have garnered enough life experience to communicate without the pathetic know it all attitude... keep defending ... your still a naive student in the eyes of real, proven professionals!!!


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> if they are walking with an intoe gait, that is with the toes pointed inwards towards the saggital plane discection line (a.k.a. pigeon toed), then yes that is a postural defect.


It is a result of training not postural defect...:madman:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

thanks, mr. self confessed troll*, but trolling to reanimate this thread to argue further is weak, even by your standards. all youve done is to show that you have a very high opinion of me because its so important to you that everyone think youre better/smarter/wiser/etc than am i. next youll be challenging me to a bike race. :lol:

you claim your complete lack of formal education & knowledge of the basics of physiology/kinesiology (clearly seen here, among a score of other posts (i.e. muscles hold joints together)) is of no consequence because of your experience, yet ignore my years of experience in the field and attempt to discredit me as merely an ignorant student simply because i have a formal education _COMBINED _with experience and am pursuing a doctorate. you say basic, accepted principles of anatomy and physiology are junk science and that the "real professionals" know better. great thought process.... "_edjumakashun 'n scientifical gobblety-goop is bad, ignernce be good_". :skep:

its unfortunate that you have such a disdain for science, anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, and formal education; but youre just gonna have to accept the fact that we disagree and that entire disciplines of science and medicine disagree with you on certain things as well. so just get over it already and move on.

you have nothing new to add and are simply trolling for further argument by crowing about how right and smart you are while science and those with experience and education are all wrong.

yeah, we get it... youre a legend in your own mind. 

***_"God I was being such a troll but it was good" - rounder_
***_"I want to put this up as a stickie How to troll someone crazy" - rounder_


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## rounder (Aug 16, 2004)

monogod said:


> thanks, mr. self confessed troll*, but trolling to reanimate this thread to argue further is weak, even by your standards. all youve done is to show that you have a very high opinion of me because its so important to you that everyone think youre better/smarter/wiser/etc than am i. next youll be challenging me to a bike race. :lol:
> 
> you claim your complete lack of formal education & knowledge of the basics of physiology/kinesiology (clearly seen here, among a score of other posts (i.e. muscles hold joints together)) is of no consequence because of your experience, yet ignore my years of experience in the field and attempt to discredit me as merely an ignorant student simply because i have a formal education _COMBINED _with experience and am pursuing a doctorate. you say basic, accepted principles of anatomy and physiology are junk science and that the "real professionals" know better. great thought process.... "_edjumakashun 'n scientifical gobblety-goop is bad, ignernce be good_". :skep:


lets see yes I did neglect to type the word over in front of pronation as I was talking of over pronation....

oh love the reference ..."slightly" well that clears up all confusion you seem to have on what is outtoeing and duck footed...etc.... 
Slightly is an awfully scientific word

Basic accepted principles of anatomy and physiology are junk science????? What basic principles would those be.... that insoles or body geometry shoes are more than just a bandaid???

Seems you have been the one who has been arguing against basic principles of anatomy and physiology... ut:

never said muscles hold joints together anywhere... I did say: muscles stabilize and hold joints... referring to the plane of movement of course.


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## UpRocks (Jun 24, 2004)

Get a room guys,


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## BigRingGrinder (Jan 9, 2013)

^5 year necro to spam?

Thats creative.

Edit- Post was removed.... now im the one who forced the thread necro, my bad. =P


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

Find an orthopedist that knows riding and riding movements.

Ha, Ha, Ha!! Good luck with that one almost all the time.

I'm a Kaiser patient and have seen many doctors for foot, hip, and shoulder pain. Not a one does anything that I do in their own lives. None have paddled enough to understand shoulder issues, none biked enough to understand biking issues, and none ever met a backcountry ski.

However, my old supervisor did go to Greg Lemond for a knee issue but he's not with kaiser.

All told, medical care in this country is focused on giving out pills and cutting us open. Getting someone to spend real time (more than 12 minutes) trying to figure out what's wrong and work to fix it is a pipedream unless you have unlimited money to go to high status clinics.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

Wow!

Was the tread about clipless and knee problems?

I have knee problems. Car accident long time ago.

I use clipless. Since 2000 or thereabout. 

No problems if the pedals are Frog's from Speedplay. SPD and all the other firm pedals are impossible for me to ride with. Before I found the Frog's I tried 3 other clipless.


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## ToiletSiphon (May 25, 2018)

las-palmas said:


> Wow!
> 
> Was the tread about clipless and knee problems?
> 
> ...


Have you tried the Syzr?

Envoyé de mon SM-A530W en utilisant Tapatalk


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

ToiletSiphon said:


> Have you tried the Syzr?
> 
> Envoyé de mon SM-A530W en utilisant Tapatalk


Yes.
Have a pair (stainless) that has less than 100 km use?
Probably good for riding on paved roads, useless in mountains. For me.
Frog pedals have more flow and easier entry and no unwanted exit.


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