# Kratom for easing ails



## Outrider66 (Jan 30, 2018)

I have been taking Kratom for the past few years to help with a few of my ails - chronic pain and aches, and I have a chemical imbalance in my brain (prone to depression and it seems that I do not produce serotonin on my own anymore), and I have what is referred to as RLS (Restless Leg Syndrome).

Kratom definitely helps me with all of that. When I wake up in the mornings, my entire body aches and I have no energy. I am 53, which is part of that problem, and my body has been beat to hell, because I am active, and I do a lot of stuff that tends to injure me. I currently ride MTB's. I used to ride offroad motorcycles. I used to kayak wicked whitewater. I have been my own mechanic since my teens, as well as my own carpenter, "rancher", furniture-maker, woodworker, etc. Do enough, of any or all of that stuff, and you are going to get injured. All of the stuff I listed above has hurt me, often bad, and sometimes severely (as in very near fatally).

Regarding energy, I am not a huge fan of caffeine, even though I do truly love iced tea, which I drink for the taste, and not for the caffeine effect. Once the Kratom kicks in, I feel normal. Then I can think sharp, and am not dragging mentally or physically. It does not make me mentally jittery like caffeine or amphetamines, etc. do, but I feel like I am in my 30s or 40s again, as opposed to my near-mid 50s.

I was reading another thread this morning about CBD oil - this one: https://forums.mtbr.com/fifty-years...nting-evidence-its-effectiveness-1027101.html . Some CBD oil was given to me last year and I tried it. It seemed to help a little with my energy level, chronic pain, and mental/emotional balance. Emphasis on "a little". But I found that it didn't help me as much as Kratom does.

The purpose of this thread is that about mid-way down in that CBD oil thread, I noticed that *Nurse Ben* here mentioned to avoid Kratom. I didn't want to derail that CBD oil thread (especially months after he made that statement), so I thought I would start another thread and ask for an explanation of the negatives of Kratom. As well as the positives of it.

Like many others, I have used a lot of pharma drugs throughout my life (prescriptions for severe injure or operation pain, as well as anti-depressants in my past), and I much prefer natural drugs to laboratory drugs. Oh, the oxy (contin, codone, etc.) stuff worked miracles on the severe pain from my broken back and hernia operation, but I immediately saw why no refills were offered, as the stuff is extremely addictive (I sure did want more of it, even after my pain was gone). Also, I was prescribed myriad different versions of antidepressants when I was going through emotional hell and PTSD after a near-fatal motorcycle crash and 1.5 months in the hospital a long time ago. Some of those antidepressants helped, but I found the side effects of the medicines to almost be worse than the symptoms they were treating. I still struggle with depression, but it isn't as severe as it was the first few years after my motorcycle crash. Kratom helps me with that chemical imbalance in my brain. I feel balanced and even-keeled when I am on it.

So far, the only negative side effect I have noticed is that just like with pharma painkillers, it royally screws up the bowel system. I cannot defecate when I am under the influence of Kratom, which also happens with any opiate painkillers. The only time I can drop a deuce is in the morning, after breakfast, and before I take Kratom.

Anyone else here have personal experience with Kratom, either themselves, or dealing with people who are on it? Emphasis on "personal experience", and not the copied/pasted clickbait BS on most "medical" websites. I am looking for actual knowledge and experiences, as opposed to "I've always heard" stuff.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I tend to put my trust in WebMD as a reliable source of information; check out the Side Effects page.

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1513/kratom


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## Outrider66 (Jan 30, 2018)

Crankout said:


> I tend to put my trust in WebMD as a reliable source of information; check out the Side Effects page.
> 
> https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1513/kratom


Thanks, but I am looking for personal experience and knowledge.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I tend to go with my experience and knowledge too, and I have knowledge that is more significant than the gov. scientists who issue "warnings" on the "Dangerous opiod " Kratom. 
I've been using Kratom for a few years mostly for relief from the deep depression that can come from a vestibular disorder, something that approved antidepressants cannot touch. 
Kratom works well with these conditions, with the stipulation that it should be skipped one or two days a week. It can be habit forming like opioids, but it is NOT an opioid; the plant is in the Rubaceia family of fruiting trees, such as coffee, where it is a lowland rubacea versus coffee being an upland rubacea. The leaves are consumed, not the flower sap/ fruit part of the plant like the opium poppy. 

The ONLY opioid s found in nature are the opium poppies, of which there are many varieties. Kratom is NOT an opioid: the U.S. government is producing propaganda about kratom. I suspect that a big FDA client is researching the bejeezus out of kratom to extract or synthesize the alkaloid and thus patent a NEW "Miracle drug" that works like kratom, which would be another windfall pharmaceutical bonanza. 

Chronic pain is a huge problem these days, kratom could be a huge market. Hence, the push to gin up "new" evidence for putting it on Schedule 1 along with heroin and other similar killers. 

Throughout the history of Kratom usage, and it goes back at least 2 thousand years, it has never been attributed to a single death. Only in the present day has it been. And the feds ignore the other drugs in the decedents system, like bento's and other true opioids when they release "news" of the 'latest" Kratom killing. 

On kratom, the gov. is misleading: and shills , stooges, lackies for the Med./Industrial Complex abound. 

So outrider, go with your gut on whether to quit the judicious use of this millenia-old medicinal tree leaf.


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## Outrider66 (Jan 30, 2018)

^^ That's the kind of info I was hoping for. Thanks, *Radium*. I have a similar viewpoint on what people and companies are doing to try to oppress Kratom.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Outrider66 said:


> ^^ That's the kind of info I was hoping for. Thanks, *Radium*. I have a similar viewpoint on what people and companies are doing to try to oppress Kratom.


Call me Ray. Im relatively knowledgeable on drug / plant med. interactions duet to my 34 years of practice as an L. Ac,. and an OMD (Oriental Medicine Doctor): which I seldom mention. I do not rest on my "laurels" so to speak, so just call men "Ray".
-Ray :thumbsup:


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I'd definitely be interested in any legitimate studies with what Radium said in mind. Really my #1 concern with any of these botanicals that have been used for eons is what exactly are you getting? 

I know Kava and Kratom are sometimes used interchangeably and there is some good evidence that Kava is hard on the liver. When I read that study I was left with questions. Are there chemicals used to isolate the active compounds? Pesticides, fungicides, etc.? Are they grown in soils containing lead, cadmium, etc.? We know for sure chocolate, tumeric and others often test through the roof for heavy metals due to where they're grown. If your confident in your source I'd get blood work done on your liver etc. just to be safe and go from there.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

pass, hard pass. your a guinea pig for unknown negative side effects not well studied. Yes savages who had no means of modern medicine used it, but blind to side effects. 

it is addictive and deaths attributed are no joke all though low in numbers.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Kratom IS an opioid, not an opiate. Opioid:

_a compound resembling opium in addictive properties or physiological effects._

I've used it for cluster headaches and nerve damage pain.

IMO, it's pretty similar to percocet and has it's side effects. I'd recommend it for intense pain for short periods of time, and only for people who tend not to become addicted to opiates.

You'll certainly pay the price for using it longer term!


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

davec113 said:


> Kratom IS an opioid, not an opiate. Opioid:
> 
> _a compound resembling opium in addictive properties or physiological effects._
> 
> ...


You pay the price for long term use of anything. The LD50 of kraters' most Well-known alkaloid, 07 mitragynine, is below the level of salt, or sugar. Pretty low in my book. 
But if you don't want use it long term, it is a good idea.

But still, if you dig into the sensational stories claiming death by kratom, you always find other substance whose toxicity is very well-known, such as hydrocodone alcohol, oxycodone, etc.
I.e., substance that are all known to kill, while not one yet has died from kratom alone.

The fact that "savages", scurrying around in the jungle, have discovered and used it is irrelevant to people of nondiscriminatory mindsets. I've gotten to know some of these "savages, and in fact I've gained a healthy respect for them. They have several systems of Silat, a fighting art, and I picked up a few valuable tips from them. I find these "Savages" in Indonesia and Bali to be quite sophisticated in their own culture, and there is one vendor with close ties to communities of them who make a good wage from hiking into the interior rivers, nothing more than streams at those heights, and essentially wildcrafting kratom by hand in spots where it grows too thickly for it's own good. They have a sustainable practice going, and I trust their integrity more than I trust our own.

So, for those of you who reject out of hand this herb because of who harvests it or where it comes from, my only suggestion is to try to adopt a "live, and let live" position.

-Ray


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Radium said:


> You pay the price for long term use of anything.


In terms of drugs, I'd agree. People need to realize kratom is a drug and it's use is a tradeoff. I used it for longer than I should have, at first because it is one of the few things that works well for my cluster headaches, later because I just liked it and it kept the headaches away, so I had an excuse... but over time the positive effects diminish and the negative side effects crop up.

I also agree it's safer vs most prescription opioids like oxycodone, and plenty of pain relief in most cases for most people. But I also think people should think of it like the drug it is, not like a typical herbal supplement and understand that short term relief of acute injury is really the only good time to use it for otherwise healthy people. It's not a good idea to use it for general aches and pains, it's way too strong for that. CBD and THC are better for that use.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

davec113 said:


> In terms of drugs, I'd agree. People need to realize kratom is a drug and it's use is a tradeoff. I used it for longer than I should have, at first because it is one of the few things that works well for my cluster headaches, later because I just liked it and it kept the headaches away, so I had an excuse... but over time the positive effects diminish and the negative side effects crop up.


"Yer right, if you can consider a dried up whole tree leaf a drug. For me, that's a stretch.

Most of the "safe" TCM herbs are in fact much more hazardous than kratom. For one, the Chinese do not care if the plant the herbs in soil that may have been contaminated land....battery dumps, etc. are where ever and whenever, and the herbs absorb that poison. They also get exposed to seriously polluted air, the poisons are absorbed by the leaves. The TCM herb-dealing companies sponsor the "safety testing" of the herbs when they reach U.S. soil....that reeks of typical Chicom treachery. Caveat Emptor, when considering a course of TCM herbs. And they, too, tend to generate long-term scenarios wherein the patient is absorbing heavy metals, etc. all the time.

Caveate Emptor ought to be the most default take when buying or considering to buy any Chicom ingestible medicines.

And Caveat Emptor also applies to FDA approved drugs, OTC, and also RX-only drugs. 
They tend to kill more patients than TCM herbs ever do. Caveat Emptor.

-Ray :thumbsup:


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## Retire (Jan 11, 2020)

My wife tried the Kratom to help with her hurting lower back. Figured it would be better than synthetic pain meds. Initially it seemed to help a lot. Started to give her stomach issues. She tried every variety of Kratom too, White vein, red vein...etc. ended up giving it all away.
she got the surgery that she needed (I don’t remember what it was called, same one Tiger Woods had). Had a great outcome, it was 14 months ago and she is doing good now. 
I guess my take on it is that it may mask your pain, but the underlying issue needs to be addressed.


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

Radium said:


> if you can consider a dried up whole tree leaf a drug. :


Please find a better fallacy then that, Coca is just a plant, and curare is just a plant, some of the chemicals in plants in rainforest are pretty damned toxic, and some have life saving properties. It factually contains drugs that help and harm humans


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Because I practice psychiatry, which is inherently more art than science, I get lots of folks coming to me who want to talk about alternative medicine, ie not prescribed.

Pretty much everything you read about on the internet has been discussed in my office, often before it’s even “a thing”. Microdosing hallucinogenics, CBD, Kratum, Ketamine, etc ...

There are many ways to live this life, no road map can tell you right from wrong, but there are some simple principals that use to help my clients navigate:

Do no harm to self or other
If it sounds to good to be true ...
Read between the lines
There is no silver bullet
Hard work and determination trump everything
Lastly, just because you want there to be an answer, doesn’t make it so

I will admit that I find it curious that people will put more trust in anonymous and unproven knowledge found on the internet than wisdom derived from experience and education.

I find it surprising that educated people would imbue a complicated substance like Kratum or CBD in lieu of a scientifically designed and rigorously studied substance.

But then, I talk to folks about this day in and day out, so I have come to the realization that it’s just how some people get when they are searching for magic.

In regards to Kratum, it’s “opiate like”, so you should assume it’s addictive. Kratum has some very serious potential side effects, both physical and mental.

In a risk benefit scenario, don’t ask yourself whether you believe the risk is real, instead ask yourself if it’s worth the risk.

We’re all adults here, older adults in fact, we don’t suffer from youthful grandiosity, we know we’ll get old and we know risk is real.

Do you really believe in magic?

Edit: The OP asked for first hand information, so here is a summary of my experiences with Kratum: labile mood, insomnia, mania, depression, psychosis, impulsivity, dependence/withdrawal/cravings, suicidal thoughts.

These ^ are all things I experienced while working with people who used Kratum. Granted, these folks are on the margins, many used to excess, and likely the majority of Kratum users never crossed my threshold, but it’s all worth considering.

One more pearl: if you are hesitant to take a prescribed medication due to the risks, how is a non prescribed substance any less risky?


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> Because I practice psychiatry, which is inherently more art than science, I get lots of folks coming to me who want to talk about alternative medicine, ie not prescribed.
> 
> Pretty much everything you read about on the internet has been discussed in my office, often before it's even "a thing". Microdosing hallucinogenics, CBD, Kratum, Ketamine, etc ...
> 
> ...


The whole "magic" thing is condescending.

There are reasons some might try alternatives to prescribed opioids. Kratom doesn't have the respiratory depressant effect so is much less likely to kill you, constipation isn't as much of an issue, and it has a long history of use that predates the internet.

For me, it works for my cluster headaches where oxycodone does not. Kratom is also related to caffeine, so the combo of caffeine-like and opioid-like aspects make it suited to relieve certain types of headaches. But it does have potential side effects and it absolutely is an addictive opioid, and it isn't regulated for purity.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Do you really believe in magic?


About as much as I believe in the DSM or pharma sponsored studies.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

You're taking it personal, that's not very constructive, and it was not my intent.

Of course you're looking for magic, aren't we all? It's because "science" has failed you, so you're looking for alternative explanations.

You can rationalize anything, it's what makes us human, but you'll still bear the consequences of your choices.



davec113 said:


> The whole "magic" thing is condescending.
> 
> There are reasons some might try alternatives to prescribed opioids. Kratom doesn't have the respiratory depressant effect so is much less likely to kill you, constipation isn't as much of an issue, and it has a long history of use that predates the internet.
> 
> For me, it works for my cluster headaches where oxycodone does not. Kratom is also related to caffeine, so the combo of caffeine-like and opioid-like aspects make it suited to relieve certain types of headaches. But it does have potential side effects and it absolutely is an addictive opioid, and it isn't regulated for purity.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

No provider worth their salt pays any attention to those studies, it's a gimmick and it's marketing, medical providers know that better than you.

The DSM is a book used to catalogue conditions and for billing purposes, it's not used to treat people. I haven't cracked a DSM in years, don't even own one. The folks who use the DSM the most; other than students, are lay people trying to self diagnose.

As in medicine, psychiatry treats the symptoms that are problematic. Labels are useless.

Edit: I work with a ton of folks who struggle with substance abuse, our group has two inpatient treatment centers. I understand how desperate people are to feel better, but it's important to balance short term benefits with long term costs.

Nevada legalized MJ a couple years ago, I can tell you that the incidence of substance abuse related problems has increased, but I can't imagine why ?

Be careful what you wish for ...



WHALENARD said:


> About as much as I believe in the DSM or pharma sponsored studies.
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> You're taking it personal, that's not very constructive, and it was not my intent.
> 
> Of course you're looking for magic, aren't we all? It's because "science" has failed you, so you're looking for alternative explanations.
> 
> You can rationalize anything, it's what makes us human, but you'll still bear the consequences of your choices.


Umm, no I'm not looking for "magic".

And I wasn't taking what you said personally, just pointing out that's what you're doing. Take it as constructive criticism. 

When I was researching what may help with my cluster headaches I found kratom. Before kratom the most effective thing was caffeine. It turns out the active ingredient in kratom has both stimulant and opiate effects, and this may be because the molecule has similarities to both caffeine and opium.

So, IDK, in this case it seems like some study of facts and science was what brought me to kratom, and it does work for my headaches. Nothing to do whatsoever with "magic", what a ridiculous idea...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

davec113 said:


> Umm, no I'm not looking for "magic".
> 
> And I wasn't taking what you said personally, just pointing out that's what you're doing. Take it as constructive criticism.
> 
> ...


I'm not here to diagnose and treat you, I'm simply providing a professional opinion on the risks of using a complex substance that can be addictive and can cause or worsen a variety of mental and physical health conditions.

"Magic" is what we search for whenever we can't find a scientific solution, CBD, Kratum, these are unknown substances that may be helpful, but at the same time they may also be hurtful. It's important to be aware of the pros and cons for putting any substance into your body.

You can do whatever you think is right, it's your life.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm not here to diagnose and treat you, I'm simply providing a professional opinion on the risks of using a complex substance that can be addictive and can cause or worsen a variety of mental and physical health conditions.
> 
> "Magic" is what we search for whenever we can't find a scientific solution, CBD, Kratum, these are unknown substances that may be helpful, but at the same time they may also be hurtful. It's important to be aware of the pros and cons for putting any substance into your body.
> 
> You can do whatever you think is right, it's your life.


No, you're not, obviously... and I didn't ask you to. I'm actually informing YOU of how kratom helped with my cluster headaches, and the fact it does has nothing to do with magic.

The substances are NOT unknown either, kratom's main active ingredient has been identified and we know what's it's molecular stricture is. By this investigation it's an obvious candidate for certain types of headaches.

It seems like this is information you'd rather not be exposed to, you'd rather continue to think it's magic and unknown. Seems very odd for someone with an education.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I'm done


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

Building tolerance is a huge problem in Kratom use. Addiction and building tolerance for ANY substance is a formula for disaster, a nightmare scenario. This could be managed with some disciplined users but anyone who is predisposed to drug abuse, most likely, will abuse Kratom just like they will abuse opiates, alcohol or any other addictive substance. Kratom use does not seem to be indicative for chronic pain. Yet chronic pain sufferers seem to be Kratom's most strident defenders. There is no doubt these users are in, or are heading for, serious trouble. I don't have a solution but I empathize. Sometimes living with the pain is the better solution.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm done


Obviously... you can't talk about the actual substance, simply refer to it as magic. You're pretentious, think you know more than everyone, and are condescending.

You might want to find a counselor to talk about these issues you have and help you work through them...  It would be much better for those you try to help.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Lopaka said:


> Building tolerance is a huge problem in Kratom use. Addiction and building tolerance for ANY substance is a formula for disaster, a nightmare scenario. This could be managed with some disciplined users but anyone who is predisposed to drug abuse, most likely, will abuse Kratom just like they will abuse opiates, alcohol or any other addictive substance. Kratom use does not seem to be indicative for chronic pain. Yet chronic pain sufferers seem to be Kratom's most strident defenders. There is no doubt these users are in, or are heading for, serious trouble. I don't have a solution but I empathize. Sometimes living with the pain is the better solution.


Agree 100%. Upping the dose due to tolerance should only be done in extreme situations or for a terminal condition.

It's good for acute pain, short term, as an alternative to prescription opioids. It may be good for some headaches that are not relieved well by opioids but are relieved by caffeine.

There are a lot of folks who use it for chronic pain, I think it's not a great idea but people have to decide for themselves if it really improves their quality of life.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

davec113 said:


> Agree 100%. Upping the dose due to tolerance should only be done in extreme situations or for a terminal condition.
> 
> It's good for acute pain, short term, as an alternative to prescription opioids. It may be good for some headaches that are not relieved well by opioids but are relieved by caffeine.
> 
> There are a lot of folks who use it for chronic pain, I think it's not a great idea but people have to decide for themselves if it really improves their quality of life.


Most kratom users who are experienced find that a mandatory 3 day abstention every 7-10 days is wise. Even lowering the dose from the analgesic level to the antidepressant level for a week can be really useful. 07 mitrag. is not the only psychoactive alkaloid fount in this leaf. There are many more, and many show promise for various health conditions. Plus, the phyto-nutrient content of m. speciosa is off the charts when comparing the anti cancer nutrient contents to those of green tea, which many hold up as a standard.
It's a good herb, and I don't think isolating one alkaloid is as beneficial as ingesting the whole leaf.

Another thing many don't know is that the concern over the leaf vein color is way overstated. I've observed the same tree, with the same leaves on it, change their vein color from green to red to white, all while still on the tree. Many of the local wild crafters like to play that part down, as there is more moolah made in certain leaf strains that in others.


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

Lopaka said:


> Building tolerance is a huge problem in Kratom use. Addiction and building tolerance for ANY substance is a formula for disaster, a nightmare scenario. This could be managed with some disciplined users but anyone who is predisposed to drug abuse, most likely, will abuse Kratom just like they will abuse opiates, alcohol or any other addictive substance. Kratom use does not seem to be indicative for chronic pain. Yet chronic pain sufferers seem to be Kratom's most strident defenders. There is no doubt these users are in, or are heading for, serious trouble. I don't have a solution but I empathize. Sometimes living with the pain is the better solution.


This. I've gone through a pretty gnarly addiction experience with kratom & managed to kick it. But I have chronic pain & major depressive disorder. Been using since 2006 or so, definitely still addicted but it helps pain & my mood. I take 1.5 teaspoons twice a day & do not increase the dose. If I stop, I will go through withdrawal, no question. I'm ok with it though, my life is better with responsible use of kratom & I recognize my proclivity toward abusive use of it. Also a user of thc/cbd -definitely improves quality of life for me. I guess you could say I have plant based wellness plan in place  Also just remembered another use -stomach issues. It's totally relieved pain & symptoms of stomach/gi issues for me a handful of times.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I’m glad that folks with experience using Kratum have come clean about their experiences becoming addicted to this substance.

There’s no free lunch, use Kratum at your own risk.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

redwarrior said:


> This. I've gone through a pretty gnarly addiction experience with kratom & managed to kick it. But I have chronic pain & major depressive disorder. Been using since 2006 or so, definitely still addicted but it helps pain & my mood. I take 1.5 teaspoons twice a day & do not increase the dose. If I stop, I will go through withdrawal, no question. I'm ok with it though, my life is better with responsible use of kratom & I recognize my proclivity toward abusive use of it. Also a user of thc/cbd -definitely improves quality of life for me. I guess you could say I have plant based wellness plan in place  Also just remembered another use -stomach issues. It's totally relieved pain & symptoms of stomach/gi issues for me a handful of times.


I don't see anything wrong with what you are doing. It's a healthier route than acetaminophen/hydro/oxycodone, and withdrawals from my routine in my experience, are not bad. In the past decade, I've had times where stress was high, so I over-medicated to compensate, but withdrawals were mild for me, and I took at most one day off for the strongest part. Since kratom is part of the rubaceia family (sp?), which includes coffee, I liken it to cutting coffee out cold turkey. For me, not so bad. 
Some users have reported interactions w/ coffee too, but I kinda find them complimentary.

Sounds to me like you have found one way to naturally deal with your chronic pain and depressive disorder. Some talk-therapy may or may not be helpful, of the likes of cognitive ./behavioral therapy, but everybody is different. Viva la difference! 
The only thing bothering me on this topic are those individuals who know better than you, and seek to control you or even shame/bully you into silence. Don't take them personally, their issues for esteem and self credentialing are issue they are controlled by.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Avoid falling into the trap of believing something that is “natural” has fewer risks than something that is synthetic.

Take each substance at face value, examine the effects and side effects, then make an educated decision.

Keep in mind that there are more people who are successfully treated with prescribed opiates than there are people unsuccessfully treated with prescribed opiated.

Yes, there is an opiate epidemic, as well as a stimulant epidemic, and a benzodiazepine epidemic, but those numbers are exceedingly small compared to the numbers of folks who are not abusing these medications.

There’s no such thing as bad or worse, it’s all just shades of gray.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm glad that folks with experience using Kratum have come clean about their experiences becoming addicted to this substance.
> 
> There's no free lunch, use Kratum at your own risk.


This I'll agree with 100%

It's just as addictive as oxycodone imo, and it has significant side effects that make long term use a deal-breaker for anyone who values their health as their top priority.

But like any drug it has it's uses, cluster headaches are not normal headaches and very painful, and acute injury is also much easier to deal with on kratom or a prescribed opioid, at least for the short-term.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

davec113 said:


> This I'll agree with 100%
> 
> It's just as addictive as oxycodone imo, and it has significant side effects that make long term use a deal-breaker for anyone who values their health as their top priority.
> 
> But like any drug it has it's uses, cluster headaches are not normal headaches and very painful, and acute injury is also much easier to deal with on kratom or a prescribed opioid, at least for the short-term.


I strongly disagree with your comparison. I've unfortunately been dependent on both, at separate times, and I found kratom to be MUCH easier to stop than Oxy.


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## River Otter (Dec 27, 2020)

Outrider66 said:


> I have been taking Kratom for the past few years to help with a few of my ails - chronic pain and aches, and I have a chemical imbalance in my brain (prone to depression and it seems that I do not produce serotonin on my own anymore), and I have what is referred to as RLS (Restless Leg Syndrome).
> 
> Kratom definitely helps me with all of that. When I wake up in the mornings, my entire body aches and I have no energy. I am 53, which is part of that problem, and my body has been beat to hell, because I am active, and I do a lot of stuff that tends to injure me. I currently ride MTB's. I used to ride offroad motorcycles. I used to kayak wicked whitewater. I have been my own mechanic since my teens, as well as my own carpenter, "rancher", furniture-maker, woodworker, etc. Do enough, of any or all of that stuff, and you are going to get injured. All of the stuff I listed above has hurt me, often bad, and sometimes severely (as in very near fatally).
> 
> ...


Hello,
This is the first forum I have sought out. I am 37 and also love off and on road motorcycling. I used to be very active in skiing, hiking, and pretty much anything else I could get into. However, depression and anxiety have plagued me since I was a teen. Each has progressively gotten worse. Due to my desire to exit life, stage left, I started using a CBD/THC tincture for mood enhancement and migraines. It worked better than anything I had ever tried. However, I now have chronic pain. I don't know why. I haven't had any major injuries, but I feel like I am an 85 year old woman. My joints and muscles ache constantly. I have seen too many doctors to count and have taken more anti depressants than I can remember. I turned to kratom and was able to get a semblance of my life back. I could ride, hike, ski, and explore with the effects of it.
I am about 2 years into using it but the effect it once had is waning fast. I have tried every strain as well as the more potent blends. I don't want to increase my dosage in hopes of regaining the joy I once felt. I realize that isn't how any drug works. My question to you is, do you take kratom daily? Do you need to go on cleanses once in awhile to keep its effects working? How much do you take and which blend?

As far as the constipation that comes with it, I use Miralax morning and night, in addition to 2 senna pills. I adjust depending on what I've eaten.

Ride on.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

River Otter said:


> Hello,
> This is the first forum I have sought out. I am 37 and also love off and on road motorcycling. I used to be very active in skiing, hiking, and pretty much anything else I could get into. However, depression and anxiety have plagued me since I was a teen. Each has progressively gotten worse. Due to my desire to exit life, stage left, I started using a CBD/THC tincture for mood enhancement and migraines. It worked better than anything I had ever tried. However, I now have chronic pain. I don't know why. I haven't had any major injuries, but I feel like I am an 85 year old woman. My joints and muscles ache constantly. I have seen too many doctors to count and have taken more anti depressants than I can remember. I turned to kratom and was able to get a semblance of my life back. I could ride, hike, ski, and explore with the effects of it.
> I am about 2 years into using it but the effect it once had is waning fast. I have tried every strain as well as the more potent blends. I don't want to increase my dosage in hopes of regaining the joy I once felt. I realize that isn't how any drug works. My question to you is, do you take kratom daily? Do you need to go on cleanses once in awhile to keep its effects working? How much do you take and which blend?
> 
> ...


1st off sorry to hear about your chronic pain. Don't give up and continue to try to find it's cause!

On kratom, I firmly feel it's a very poor long term solution in terms of improving your quality of life. Like any drug it's positive effects will wane and negative ones will increase as time goes by. You can stop for a while and reduce your tolerance but it will return quickly, so if you really need to continue with it's use you'll have to take periodic breaks from it.

It's a tough position to be in, I really hope you can figure out the cause and address it directly rather than have to continue to take kratom.


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## River Otter (Dec 27, 2020)

Thank you for your reply. I don’t want to agree that kratom can’t be the answer, but I fear you are right. However, until I can find another way to find emotional and physical relief, I will continue to take it for my own safety. I am still seeing doctors, bloodwork being done for auto immune diseases and RA. I’ve had stem cell injections that look promising as well. They are very costly however.


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

No more than 3 grams at a time and no more than twice a week. I just pick the times I want to have a break from the pain. I do not take at all for riding. I found it counter productive to both. Strains are really just marketing in my opinion. The best mood enhancer is good health really. Green smoothies every day, good vitamin and nutrient regimen and healthy weight management (not too skinny also) is important. Make sure to avoid foods that are not good for you.

Super important to stop all over the counter pain killers especially Ibuprofen. Habitual use of these drugs increases pain response.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

River Otter said:


> Thank you for your reply. I don't want to agree that kratom can't be the answer, but I fear you are right. However, until I can find another way to find emotional and physical relief, I will continue to take it for my own safety. I am still seeing doctors, bloodwork being done for auto immune diseases and RA. I've had stem cell injections that look promising as well. They are very costly however.


Good luck! In these cases it often seems to come down to finding the doctor with the right experience to properly diagnose your condition.

I have a friend who has health issues that include pain and it's going to be terminal, he's been on opioids for a very long time and while for him it improves his quality of life there are too many downsides to accept this outcome unless you do have a terminal disease. So I can't condemn opioids, including kratom, they have their uses and for some they really do improve quality of life, but I also think it's a last resort. I used kratom for too long for cluster headaches, I had a string of them and used it as a preventative, this was a huge mistake as I became dependent and then had to taper off. Not fun. But cluster headaches are evil and I wouldn't hesitate to take kratom again, but not to simply prevent them, only to interrupt a very bad one.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

I've been a daily user of Kratom for about 4 years. I've enjoyed it, with few negatives, but I need to quit. Read on.
I like the way it makes me feel. Gives me energy yet relaxes me which is a pretty unique profile for a drug. It also feels like a nice buzz yet I stay clear headed. Also a unique combination. So clear headed in fact that I think my on line chess performance is better with Kratom.
The problem is trying to stop taking it.
I can not skip a day. If I do, I can not sleep. I lay in bed like a guy with severe parkinson's disease. Twitching. Involuntary spastic arm, leg, and body movements. 
It's not that big of a problem because all I have to do is take some Kratom. Problem solved.
But needing a drug in order to function is unacceptable to me. It took me a while to take the stand that I must quit. In the last week I have tapered my dose to one third. I hope to be completely off in another week or so. Wish me luck.


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## Outrider66 (Jan 30, 2018)

smilinsteve said:


> I've been a daily user of Kratom for about 4 years. I've enjoyed it, with few negatives, but I need to quit. Read on.
> I like the way it makes me feel. Gives me energy yet relaxes me which is a pretty unique profile for a drug. It also feels like a nice buzz yet I stay clear headed. Also a unique combination. So clear headed in fact that I think my on line chess performance is better with Kratom.
> The problem is trying to stop taking it.
> I can not skip a day. If I do, I can not sleep. I lay in bed like a guy with severe parkinson's disease. Twitching. Involuntary spastic arm, leg, and body movements.
> ...


Good luck.

I have the same problem if I try to skip a day, or if I run out before replenishing my supply. It is just like the condition commonly called Restless Leg Syndrome (I forgot the medical name for that). It is the relentless urge to move some part of your body. That urge simply will not stop until you move something. Then the urge goes a way...for a few seconds or minutes, then returns again.

I am curious about what causes that condition, and if there is some mineral (like magnesium, etc.) that you could take to ease the problem until you wean yourself of the Kratom. I do know that just a very small dose of Kratom will fix that particular problem. Like if I take 4 capsules before bed (not enough to feel any effects).

Maybe a while after you quit, when it is completely clear of your system, and your body chemistry become unadulterated, then the problem would go away. Or maybe not. I just know that I would have to find some way to deal with that issue while trying to skip a day or two, or trying to quit altogether. Because that condition is extremely maddening.

The effect of Kratom is similar to me, and the reason I take it. If I am sore, have aches, etc., it eases them. Plus it gives me energy. And keeps me feeling balanced mentally and emotionally (I despised any anti-depressant I that I tried years ago, because the side effects were worse than the symptoms they were treating).


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

One of my patients had to go into residential treatment to safely stop Kratum, he became suicidal trying to taper off at home.

Kratum is complicated plant, it’s both a stimulant and an opiate, not easy to kick, it’s probably better to avoid using it altogether.

We’re all adults here (right?), there’s no reason to heed my advice, but I have been treating addiction for a while and I know a few things ....

You only have to watch one person withdrawing from Kratum to see the problems it can cause.

Responding to Otter (if she’s still around?): talk to your psychiatric provider about using stimulants to augment your antidepressant. I do this a fair amount, it can make a big difference. A stimulant would be safer than Kratum and far less likely to cause withdrawals


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Like any opioid you need to taper your dose to minimize withdrawal. I took it for too long due to cluster headaches, it works great for them but the headaches became an excuse to take kratom. For me, it wasn't too bad to quit but it takes the body some time to adjust. Cluster headaches suck so for me, totally worth it... but I regret not stopping it sooner. Again, you need to taper and allow the body to adjust to a low dose before quitting completely, this takes some time... 

IMO, you really need to have some good reason to use it, and if you do it shouldn't be for long. The risks are similar to oxycodone, which are significant. It's also hard to predict who will have addiction issues, if you do it can totally ruin your life so you're playing with fire, especially if you never took opioids before. 

Mindset is key to successfully quitting, you need to know long term use of kratom or any opioid is not an option unless you have a terminal disease. You just can't keep taking it and the sooner you taper off and quit, the easier it will be. There is NO reasonable option that involves continuous use of opioids, the sooner you really get that the easier your life will be. 

I still take it occasionally, but it's always a questionable choice, and I know it won't be for long, headaches or not.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Outrider66 said:


> Good luck.
> 
> I have the same problem if I try to skip a day, or if I run out before replenishing my supply. It is just like the condition commonly called Restless Leg Syndrome (I forgot the medical name for that). It is the relentless urge to move some part of your body. That urge simply will not stop until you move something. Then the urge goes a way...for a few seconds or minutes, then returns again.
> 
> ...


Yes! You know what I am talking about, and if you look it up, involuntary body movements and twitching are common side effects of kratom. You are right it is maddening!
In my quest to quit I have reduced my dose and only take it in the evening so that I can sleep without twitching. But if I take too little, I wake up after a few hours with the twitch, and have to take some more. So it has been tricky. Trying to slowly lower the dose, yet still take enough to be able to sleep.

Your comment about restless leg syndrome (RLS) and whether any supplements could help made me think of something. There is a product called Sport Legs that I have used to have better endurance (less thigh burn) during snow skiing. when I was using it I was pretty convinced that it helped reduce the burn. Someone told me that it works for RLS, so maybe it can help with this withdrawal symptom. I don't know, but I think I have some old pills in my ski bag I might try it.









Sportlegs Supplement (Bottle Of 120 Capsules)


Go faster, stronger and longer without the pain of burning muscles. This unique supplement uses calcium, magnesium and Vitamin D to increase... 120-CAPSULE_BOTTLE




www.nashbar.com


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

smilinsteve said:


> Yes! You know what I am talking about, and if you look it up, involuntary body movements and twitching are common side effects of kratom. You are right it is maddening!
> In my quest to quit I have reduced my dose and only take it in the evening so that I can sleep without twitching. But if I take too little, I wake up after a few hours with the twitch, and have to take some more. So it has been tricky. Trying to slowly lower the dose, yet still take enough to be able to sleep.
> 
> Your comment about restless leg syndrome (RLS) and whether any supplements could help made me think of something. There is a product called Sport Legs that I have used to have better endurance (less thigh burn) during snow skiing. when I was using it I was pretty convinced that it helped reduce the burn. Someone told me that it works for RLS, so maybe it can help with this withdrawal symptom. I don't know, but I think I have some old pills in my ski bag I might try it.
> ...


For a while I just got up halfway through the night and checked email, read a book, etc. for a bit, then back to bed. It just took a while before I stayed sleepy all night, but after a few months everything returned to normal.

How much are you getting down to? IME, tapering to <2g/day is necessary...

I do think Mg, Ca and Vit D help for everything, I take them all regularly. Vit D is really more important for sleep (and immune response) than many realize and many are deficient.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

davec113 said:


> For a while I just got up halfway through the night and checked email, read a book, etc. for a bit, then back to bed. It just took a while before I stayed sleepy all night, but after a few months everything returned to normal.
> 
> How much are you getting down to? IME, tapering to <2g/day is necessary...
> 
> I do think Mg, Ca and Vit D help for everything, I take them all regularly. Vit D is really more important for sleep (and immune response) than many realize and many are deficient.


I was up to 13 g in one dose, once per day. Now I am taking 4 g before bed. And will taper from there.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

smilinsteve said:


> I was up to 13 g in one dose, once per day. Now I am taking 4 g before bed. And will taper from there.


Gotcha, yeah a larger dose just makes stopping harder, it takes longer for your body to adjust so you need to taper off for longer to avoid withdrawals. IME, once you get to ~2g/day and your body is ok with that it's not a big deal to quit entirely. It may take several months to get to a point where sleep returns to normal, just don't get discouraged and take it as an excuse to read a book or meditate.

For others reading, if you really think you want to try kratom, other than it's probably best not to... I'd suggest a 3-4g maximum dose 2x/day and if you never go above that you'll be able to quit more easily. For many people half that dose is enough. Never use concentrates. If you use larger doses or concentrates you're just asking for a bad time later. Opiates become a MUCH larger issue when you increase dose due to tolerance.

And if you think kratom or opiates are bed, benzos put them to shame and make people go through months and even years of hell to get off of them. So if you get discouraged read up on benzo withdrawals.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Thanks for all the good advice davec. Hoping to get by with 3g before bed tonight. Hopefully you not right that it will take months to get sleep back to normal, but we will see. 
And you are right about the benzos. My son has been to reheb twice for benzos and adderall which is just a name for amphetamine. I don't know if he will ever be normal again. It has really messed up his life.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

smilinsteve said:


> Thanks for all the good advice davec. Hoping to get by with 3g before bed tonight. Hopefully you not right that it will take months to get sleep back to normal, but we will see.
> And you are right about the benzos. My son has been to reheb twice for benzos and adderall which is just a name for amphetamine. I don't know if he will ever be normal again. It has really messed up his life.


Cool, I'm with you! I'm tapering off right now after a shoulder surgery about 10 days ago. I also took some when the injury happened, but the shoulder wasn't the issue, I almost had compartment syndrome in my left quad! They gave me fentanyl in the ER, which made me sick and didn't seem to actually relieve pain, lol... Then did a CT scan to see if I needed emergency surgery. Compartment syndrome or a major hematoma approaching it is one of the more painful experiences I've ever had and it lasted a LONG time. Accident was on Jan 31st, and I can still feel it in my leg. 1st week the quad wouldn't fire at all, it just sat there being extremely painful. I certainly don't regret using kratom for this, pain was bad enough I'd go into shock without it, but damn it is not much fun to quit even after a short time! If you have depressive tendencies it makes it even harder, which I do...

I wish your son the best, it can take years to recover from benzos but it's possible and there are a lot of folks in the same circumstances, dr's have been negligent wrt preventing their patients from getting addicted. Most patients don't fully understand what they are getting themselves into and the dr's don't give them the info so they take benzos long term and their entire life is now f'ed. IMO, this is basically malpractice and a violation of their oath. Not enough Dr's have been held accountable for profiting off their patient's addictions.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

smilinsteve said:


> Thanks for all the good advice davec. Hoping to get by with 3g before bed tonight. Hopefully you not right that it will take months to get sleep back to normal, but we will see.
> And you are right about the benzos. My son has been to reheb twice for benzos and adderall which is just a name for amphetamine. I don't know if he will ever be normal again. It has really messed up his life.


The medications are not the cause for your son's messed up life, nor are the prescribers per se, he had a choice and made it ... repeatedly.

Addictive medications and addictive drugs are addictive, best to avoid things like that in case you are prone to becoming addicted.

I treat addiction, it's never about the drugs or medications, it's always about the person.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> The medications are not the cause for your son's messed up life, nor are the prescribers per se, he had a choice and made it ... repeatedly.
> 
> Addictive medications and addictive drugs are addictive, best to avoid things like that in case you are prone to becoming addicted.
> 
> I treat addiction, it's never about the drugs or medications, it's always about the person.


It's not quite so black and white. Often the patient is not given enough information about the consequences of choosing to use benzos to make an informed decision, and they rely on their doctor to give them good advice. Doctors take oaths to do what's in the patient's best interest but bias is introduced by pharma companies to prescribe drugs. Pharma companies perpetuated the myth, that many dr's accepted to be fact, that oxy and benzos are not addictive when used as prescribed. Now, pharma companies and doctors are being found guilty in courts of law across the nation for their roles in the opioid epidemic, and rightfully so imo. So whatever your opinions are, I think the courts are disagreeing with your position on the matter that the prescriber has no share of the blame.

If I had a benzo problem I'd look into the circumstances of the prescription and whether I had full info before being offered the pills, and if I did not and took on faith the dr had my best interest in mind I might consider a lawsuit. As you know benzo addiction is no joke, it ruins lives and causes immense suffering.

This isn't to say I don't agree with your post, I do wit the exception of prescriber blame, but in this case more than one thing can be true at the same time... at the end of the day I do think you have to take full responsibility for yourself. OTOH, it can be convincingly argued the prescribing dr harmed you by offering addictive substances without informed consent of the patient.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

It’s amazing to me how people can see a medical provider as the cause of addiction. My wife and I are both medical providers, she does primary care, I’m in mental health.

One thing we share is the struggle of trying to get folks to cut back on their opiates, benzos, and stimulants. We often talk about addiction issues over dinner; light conversation 🙄

For the record, I’ve been threatened, stalked, coerced, lied to, you name it I have heard it, but in all the years I’ve been doing this work, never have I been the one driving the bus.

As an addiction specialist, having worked out patient, in patient, and residential treatment, the theme is consistent: Whether it’s alcohol, prescribed medications, illicit drugs, or over the counter medications, people who want a substance will find that substance one way or another.

I care a lot about my patients, often more than they care about themselves. I’m there when their family casts them out, I’m there to help them detox again and again. I don’t judge them for their choices, I’m there to help them in any way I can.

You cannot change another person, they can only change themselves. It is and will always be about personal responsibility.

It’s hard to have a family member who is struggling with addiction, but it’s not about you, it’s always about them. Anyone can recover, but when they recover and how they recover is in their hands.

Most of the time there is no single answer, it often takes years to recover, relapse is common, and along the way their are many hurts and broken promises.

If it were easy, we wouldn’t be talking about it. I would love to be able to end addiction, it’s not an easy thing to treat, not “fun” at all, and if often feels hopeless.

I have seen some amazing recoveries and I have experienced some tragic losses.

If there’s one piece of advice I give freely, it’s this: if you never use drugs and alcohol, then they can never become a problem.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

I agree nurse Ben, my son chose to take those drugs, and I don't even think there is a doctor to blame as he knows how to get them through the internet or on the street.
But I also agree with Davec that its not so simple. He doesn't choose to not take them because he is addicted . Definition of addiction. I don't think Nancy Reagan ever helped much with her simple minded "just say no" campaign. It might work for kids who never started, but kicking an addiction is hard especially when there are serious physical and mental repercussions with withdrawal.
To further complicate it, he may be self medicating to deal with some mental health issues.
He's getting out of rehab next week after being in for 6 weeks. If he goes back to his old ways you are right that it will be his own fault for making that decision.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I really wish it wasn't so hard, it's a struggle I work through all the time, sometimes I get mad that certain providers are more lenient than others, but it's really hard to put people's feet to the fire cuz they often just go somewhere else. Most of my referrals are internal, primary care providers send their clients to me because they don't want to prescribe benzos and stimulant's (as if I do??).

There may come a time when we have non addictive treatments to supplant stimulants, benzos, even opiates, but so far there's not a lot out there.

I did have a success today, I got a lady to try Strattera to help her get off Adderall and it worked!


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> It's amazing to me how people can see a medical provider as the cause of addiction. My wife and I are both medical providers, she does primary care, I'm in mental health.
> 
> One thing we share is the struggle of trying to get folks to cut back on their opiates, benzos, and stimulants. We often talk about addiction issues over dinner; light conversation ?
> 
> ...


Doctors have much more responsibility for the advice they give vs, say, your next door neighbor. They wear the hat of an "expert" and furthermore have taken an oath to do what's in their patient's best interests.

This means people will often take their advise without doing thorough research. Also, many people are not intelligent enough to do such research anyways. I think the Trump years have proved that... the level of both intelligence as well as common sense is not as high as we'd like and your expectations for people to understand that the pills the doctor is giving them may not be a great choice is unreasonable.

I think it's hard to deny that the beliefs many doctors held in the recent past is that benzos and oxy are NOT ADDICTIVE when used as prescribed. This is obviously not true, and while many dr's may have genuinely believed it, it's also introduced bias by pharma companies to encourage the use of their product.

Look, there's some pretty obvious bias in your post, you are not seeing this subject from a clear and neutral perspective, which I'd admit is impossible given what you do for a living, but you should really re-think your premise that prescribers aren't a contributing cause to the epidemic of prescription drug abuse and addiction. Our court system would certainly agree with me!

Finally, this has nothing to do with taking personal responsibility. We aren't the only ones in this world and we can't be expected to know everything, we are only human. The truth is more nuanced than that, you can't look at this in black and white terms. However, it is also harmful to blame others, and is the entire premise of conspiracy theory, so as I said previously, at the end of the day you have to take full responsibility for the circumstances you find yourself in because it's the only way to constructively view the world, but it's also an over-simplification of reality in the context of the short-term here-and-now. I firmly believe that actions in past lives are the cause of our present circumstances to a massive degree, so 100% personal responsibility is the ultimate truth, but that doesn't mean it's the relative truth.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> ... I did have a success today, I got a lady to try Strattera to help her get off Adderall and it worked!


I have to say thanks and I appreciate people like you who help the addicted and those struggling with mental health. It must be extremely frustrating yet extremely rewarding when you can help someone like that. 
I know speaking from experience that living with an addict is a nightmare and it is impossible for most people to know how to deal with it.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Here's a balanced and objective perspective on the issue... JRE podcast with Hamilton Morris, Vice TV documentary series "Hamilton's Pharmacopeia". I agree 100% with what he says. Info closely pertaining to the discussion starts around 65 min in.

Some shocking info wrt pharma and doctors completely disregarding 100 years of human experience with oxycodone.

What if the 1st prescription for anxiety is psychotherapy and meditation lessons rather than benzos? Think about it...



https://open.spotify.com/show/4rOoJ6Egrf8K2IrywzwOMk


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## BigD80203 (Apr 25, 2021)

_


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## BigD80203 (Apr 25, 2021)

Outrider66 said:


> I have been taking Kratom for the past few years to help with a few of my ails - chronic pain and aches, and I have a chemical imbalance in my brain (prone to depression and it seems that I do not produce serotonin on my own anymore), and I have what is referred to as RLS (Restless Leg Syndrome).
> 
> Kratom definitely helps me with all of that. When I wake up in the mornings, my entire body aches and I have no energy. I am 53, which is part of that problem, and my body has been beat to hell, because I am active, and I do a lot of stuff that tends to injure me. I currently ride MTB's. I used to ride offroad motorcycles. I used to kayak wicked whitewater. I have been my own mechanic since my teens, as well as my own carpenter, "rancher", furniture-maker, woodworker, etc. Do enough, of any or all of that stuff, and you are going to get injured. All of the stuff I listed above has hurt me, often bad, and sometimes severely (as in very near fatally).
> 
> ...


I must say, you have almost described me to a T. I am a 49 year old mountain biker and cyclist and I have my share of "old man aches" from years of basketball and I to suffer from depression. I was diagnosed with PTSD in 2019 after a traumatizing life event and I am prone to panic attacks and anxiety. I was turned onto kratom from a well-intentioned friend about 4 years ago and finally tried it. I liked it so much I have been an on again-off again user since 2017. However, I started taking it every day, sometimes twice daily beginning late 2019 while finishing grad school and then the pandemic hit and I began working from home. I remained on kratom through 2020 and into 2021 and couldn't stop using it due to the withdrawals. With the aid of pot gummies (I reside in Colorado where its legal) I could quit but for no more than 4-5 days. I found that long road trips worked best for this since I wouldn't travel with it- out of sight, out of mind. I am an avid cyclist and ride daily. When I used kratom regularly, I actually found that it zapped my energy and really messed with my stomach especially when hunched over on a road bike. For a long time I didn't recognize why I felt so bad and then it occurred to me. However, mornings were the worst. I would wake up and immediately break into a cold sweat and suffer mild panic attacks because I was hours between use. I initially thought it was the depression and anxiety but I think the kratom withdrawal amplified it. When I finally quit kratom the hellish mornings went away. I acknowledge kratom as a sort of wonder drug for those quitting harsher substances like pain pills and heroin but it is not for everybody and everyone's body will respond to it differently over prolong use. I have tried CBD pills and oils but found them ineffective. Medical/recreational grade THC works best. I refrain from smoking so I pop a gummy every now and then. I found there are no chemically addictive qualities to THC but it can be mentally addictive. I had back surgery in 2012 and was prescribed a very generous amount of oxy and a never-ending supply of refills and I LOVED IT! But I recognized the risk of severe addiction and trashed my remaining pills and prescriptions and didn't look back. If you have addictive tendencies taking legal or illegal substances can cause problems. Even something natural and presumably safe like kratom. I have read posts from people that take kratom as a means to quit harder substances but only seem to replace one addiction with another. Kratom, like other recreational stimulants, are okay to take every now and then. Your body wasn't meant to consume this stuff long term. Like you, I suffer from depression. The meds I am on help level out my serotonin levels and helps with my occasional anxiety. If you haven't tried them before perhaps you should talk to a doctor. However, I HIGHLY recommend staying away from Effexor (generic name Venlafaxine) because of the withdrawls if you decide to stop. In short, treat kratom like you would anything else because it does have very similar chemical qualities as opiotes and you can get hooked. Anyway. Hope it helps knowing you're not alone in your quest to be fit, happy, and healthy.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Despite the fact that reviving old threads is frowned upon, for reasons I don't understand, I think this is the best place for my post.
I see that 9 months ago I posted how I was tapering down to get off kratom. It did not work. I would get to a very low dose before bed to allow me to sleep and prevent the twitching and involuntary movements that the drug causes. But I could never make that step from the low dose to completely stopping. Eventually, I decided that if I had to take it, I might as well enjoy it, and reverted to my old habits. 
Now I am trying again. My inspiration came after visiting the dentist for a tooth ache and receiving a few Vicodin from him. My strategy was to taper as before, then replace the kratom with Vicodin at bedtime to get me through the night. 

It has gone like this: I went from my 13 gram afternoon dose, and slowly decreased to 5 grams before bed. The biggest issue with this part of the plan is a terrible feeling of lethargy at around 2 pm when I would usually take my kratom to pick me up. I have used coffee and sometimes a nap to help with this.
Then 5 days ago I stopped kratom and I took 2 Vicodin in the evening and needed 2 more during the night for sleep and to stop the twitching. These are 5/350 strength, I believe the lowest dose. 
4 days ago - 2 Vicodin to get me through the night
3 days ago - 2 Vicodin
2 days ago - 1 Vicodin
Last night - No vicodin, and now 5 days with no kratom. I did have twitching and did not sleep much. But forced my way through the whole night reading as Davec suggested, stretching, tossing and turning, but didn't give in. The twitching seemed less severe than when tapering with kratom alone, so it seems to me the vicodin idea actually worked.

In summary, I am very happy that I have now gone 5 days without kratom, although you may argue that I cheated with Vicodin. But yesterday and today I haven't had Vicodin or kratom and I'm doing ok, other than my afternoon lethargy hitting me right now. I'm hoping the sleeping will become easier tonight and each passing day, and quickly return to normal.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Nice.
A good multi-mineral or just magnesium and 0.5 to 1.5mg of melatonin sublingually helps me sleep like a rock. Good luck. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm all for alternative medicine and lack of trust from big farm. I think micro dosing mushrooms is valid for some mental illnesses. And fully support MJ legalization for recreational use. I put that out there first. Because I don't believe kratum should be labeled a supplement. Should have age restrictions. I think the biggest issue is rapid tolerance. Daily use has caused quite a few people I know major addiction issues. It's safer than heroin, might be safer than other opioid type drugs. But it's not harmless substance. I'd rather someone I care about say they like the high and use it on the weekends, than use every day thinking it's harmless.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

smilinsteve said:


> Despite the fact that reviving old threads is frowned upon, for reasons I don't understand, I think this is the best place for my post.
> I see that 9 months ago I posted how I was tapering down to get off kratom. It did not work. I would get to a very low dose before bed to allow me to sleep and prevent the twitching and involuntary movements that the drug causes. But I could never make that step from the low dose to completely stopping. Eventually, I decided that if I had to take it, I might as well enjoy it, and reverted to my old habits.
> Now I am trying again. My inspiration came after visiting the dentist for a tooth ache and receiving a few Vicodin from him. My strategy was to taper as before, then replace the kratom with Vicodin at bedtime to get me through the night.
> 
> ...



Good to hear, imo long term use is not sustainable. At first I didn't understand that but I think kratom is really an opioid not far off from oxy in it's addictive potential, especially if you get into the concentrates. 

After I quit kratom sleep rapidly improved to a point then plateaued. For whatever reason I'd wake up after 4 hours and need to do something for a few before getting back to sleep. If you're not sleeping I think it's best to get out of bed until you're tired again. For me it was maybe 6 months to get back to normal but besides waking up middle of the night I slept ok. Now my smartwatch is rating my sleep better than average most nights.  It takes a lot of patience to get through, but once you've suffered through it a while it's motivation to think you won't have to repeat this ever again... unless you start using it again! 

Also, I read a study that correlated vit D deficiency with a propensity toward opiate addiction.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Cerberus75 said:


> I'm all for alternative medicine and lack of trust from big farm. I think micro dosing mushrooms is valid for some mental illnesses. And fully support MJ legalization for recreational use. I put that out there first. Because I don't believe kratum should be labeled a supplement. Should have age restrictions. I think the biggest issue is rapid tolerance. Daily use has caused quite a few people I know major addiction issues. It's safer than heroin, might be safer than other opioid type drugs. But it's not harmless substance. I'd rather someone I care about say they like the high and use it on the weekends, than use every day thinking it's harmless.


My thoughts on addiction and daily use: Kratom is tricky because I found that I could function normally, think clearly, and enjoy benefits of calmness, energy, and euphoric good feeling without obvious downsides. For a while I equated it to coffee, which everyone is addicted to, but no one cares. Maybe kratom is like coffee I thought, or other natural herbs, that give us benefits without major problems. 
But the fact that I could not sleep without taking kratom, and I feel my energy crash without kratom, made me realize that my need for it is scary. And I've been thinking that the government may some day outlaw it, and being forced to quit cold turkey without a chance to taper off it would be very difficult. I am motivated to get that monkey off my back.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

davec113 said:


> Good to hear, imo long term use is not sustainable. At first I didn't understand that but I think kratom is really an opioid not far off from oxy in it's addictive potential, especially if you get into the concentrates.
> 
> After I quit kratom sleep rapidly improved to a point then plateaued. For whatever reason I'd wake up after 4 hours and need to do something for a few before getting back to sleep. If you're not sleeping I think it's best to get out of bed until you're tired again. For me it was maybe 6 months to get back to normal but besides waking up middle of the night I slept ok. Now my smartwatch is rating my sleep better than average most nights.  It takes a lot of patience to get through, but once you've suffered through it a while it's motivation to think you won't have to repeat this ever again... unless you start using it again!
> 
> Also, I read a study that correlated vit D deficiency with a propensity toward opiate addiction.


6 months! That's terrible. I have assumed that a few days without kratom will get me back to normal. I feel I have made great progress even in the short time I described above, but we will see. It might take a while. 
I have supplemented with Vitamin D for years and have been tested for Vitamin D levels so I know that is not the issue.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Another rough night last night but I made it for the second night without kratom or Vicodin and 6 days now without kratom at all. Twitching seems greatly reduced already, and now its mostly just tossing and turning restlessness. 
I was thinking about Davec saying it took 6 months for him to get sleep back to normal, and how easy it would be to give up and just take a spoonful of kratom to get some precious sleep. I really hope I can continue to improve quickly and at least get a reasonable amount of sleep fairly soon. Last night was maybe 4 hours sleep.

Last night I also took magnesium which Whalenard recommended, along with benedryl. I read magnesium can help with restless leg syndrome, so maybe that is part of the reason why the twitching seems much reduced.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

smilinsteve said:


> 6 months! That's terrible. I have assumed that a few days without kratom will get me back to normal. I feel I have made great progress even in the short time I described above, but we will see. It might take a while.
> I have supplemented with Vitamin D for years and have been tested for Vitamin D levels so I know that is not the issue.


I also thought it was more like coffee than oxy, it was wishful thinking. I was taking it for cluster headaches, which come on right in the middle of the sleep cycle and can be really painful and sap your energy, so for me it was well worth it, but it had it's costs. In the future I'd limit it's use to avoid dependency like any opiate. 

Sleep was pretty normal after a couple weeks except for waking up in the middle of the night for 20-30 min. I agree w/ Magnesium, you can also try L-theanine and/or GABA, ime GABA made me feel a little odd but L-theanine works. CBD and Blue Lotus are some other things that may help with sleep. 

Hang in there!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I recently had a patient enter a thirty day treatment program to get off Kratom.

I strongly recommend people avoid using Kratom.

Yes, it should be illegal.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yes, it should be illegal.


Yes, the drug war has been such a great success, the solution is obviously to have the government make your decisions for you...


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

smilinsteve said:


> Another rough night last night but I made it for the second night without kratom or Vicodin and 6 days now without kratom at all. Twitching seems greatly reduced already, and now its mostly just tossing and turning restlessness.
> I was thinking about Davec saying it took 6 months for him to get sleep back to normal, and how easy it would be to give up and just take a spoonful of kratom to get some precious sleep. I really hope I can continue to improve quickly and at least get a reasonable amount of sleep fairly soon. Last night was maybe 4 hours sleep.
> 
> Last night I also took magnesium which Whalenard recommended, along with benedryl. I read magnesium can help with restless leg syndrome, so maybe that is part of the reason why the twitching seems much reduced.


Slowly increase magnesium so it doesn't give you a laxative effect. At 1000mg I get good sleep and no leg movement issues.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

One week off kratom and that is a good feeling! I was an every day user for maybe 4 years. Sleep last night was a little better the night before and the twitching is basically gone! Used magnesium and melatonin for the first half of the night and benedryl in the early morning hours when I woke up. Probably got about 5 hours of sleep but had to lay in bed for 9 hours to get that. 
I'm not in favor of making it illegal. It doesn't kill you like opiates, it doesn't make you crash cars, and it keeps some people away from harder stuff. If the worst thing about it is that it is addictive, then its the same as the legal drugs coffee, alcohol and tobacco. Controlling people's innate desire for a buzz is something the government is already too involved in. There is no perfect answer to drugs in society, but that's my take.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

smilinsteve said:


> One week off kratom and that is a good feeling! I was an every day user for maybe 4 years. Sleep last night was a little better the night before and the twitching is basically gone! Used magnesium and melatonin for the first half of the night and benedryl in the early morning hours when I woke up. Probably got about 5 hours of sleep but had to lay in bed for 9 hours to get that.
> I'm not in favor of making it illegal. It doesn't kill you like opiates, it doesn't make you crash cars, and it keeps some people away from harder stuff. If the worst thing about it is that it is addictive, then its the same as the legal drugs coffee, alcohol and tobacco. Controlling people's innate desire for a buzz is something the government is already too involved in.  There is no perfect answer to drugs in society, but that's my take.


Yeah. I'm for age restrictions. Adults should research what they put in their body and make their own choices. I know people who are addicted to kratom. But we're pill or heroin uses. These people should have a safer alternative. Methadone isn't safe it's just regulated.


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## Calsun (May 12, 2021)

Kratom increases blood pressure which would be a problem for most older people. It is more important to focus on what not to ingest as with meat and dairy and to avoid food packaged in plastics or cans which are contain bispenols and non organic produce laden with herbicides and pesticides. So many diseases and birth defects are the result of the thousands of chemicals that people, including pregnant women and their fetuses, are exposed to without their consent.

Thanks to Orrin Hatch this country has no control over "herbal" and homeopathic substances that are not permitted to be sold without a physicians proscription in Europe. The FDA is co-opted and toothless as we saw with the approval of carcinogenic aspartame and addictive oxycotin and their refusal to block the use of bispenols in food packaging.

With drug addictions the problem in part is treating them as an excuse to lock people of color up for profit. Far more high functioning heroin addicts than alcoholics but we criminalize one and allow unlimited consumption and abuse of the other.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Actually, Orrin Hatch was, at the time, providing a much-needed counterbalance to the power hungry FDA commissioner, David Kessler. Kessler was almost rabid in his attempts to expand the scope of his commission. 
Hatch had bipartisan support on his bill.
And as to kratom raising BP, my experience was just the opposite. I had to decrease my daily BP dosage as long as I was using kratom. By titrating my kratom/bp meds dosage together my standard readings were averaging 100/65-70. 
So in general it worked well for me, all except for the Tolerance Issue. That was a deal-breaker.


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## bouarfalisted (2 mo ago)

You make some valid points, but I can't entirely agree with you on a few things. First, while Orrin Hatch may have been providing a counterbalance to the FDA commissioner at the time, I don't think that means he was necessarily in the right. The FDA commissioner has a lot of power and responsibility, and I think Hatch was wrong to try and rein him in. Second, while kratom may have lowered your blood pressure, it is not necessarily safe for everyone. Some people may experience the opposite effect, and it is important to be aware of this before taking kratom. Finally, the tolerance issue is a big one. If kratom causes tolerance issues, then it is not worth taking, in my opinion. Instead, you can try the natural cbd from organiccbdnugs.com . I don't think with it you will have problems with the BP.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

bouarfalisted said:


> You make some valid points, but I can't entirely agree with you on a few things. First, while Orrin Hatch may have been providing a counterbalance to the FDA commissioner at the time, I don't think that means he was necessarily in the right. The FDA commissioner has a lot of power and responsibility, and I think Hatch was wrong to try and rein him in. Second, while kratom may have lowered your blood pressure, it is not necessarily safe for everyone. Some people may experience the opposite effect, and it is important to be aware of this before taking kratom. Finally, the tolerance issue is a big one. If kratom causes tolerance issues, then it is not worth taking, in my opinion. Instead, you can try the natural cbd from organiccbdnugs.com . I don't think with it you will have problems with the BP.


You and Radium mention tolerance, but really I think it is addiction, not tolerance, that is the issue. Tolerance meaning that more of the drug is needed to get the same effect. I documented my addiction problem in this thread, and how I finally kicked it. In short my addiction meant that I* had *to take kratom daily or I would not be able to sleep and had involuntary twitching of my entire body at night.
With that said, I revisit this thread because I recently had spinal fusion surgery and have been using kratom to manage the pain and sleep problems that come with the surgery recovery. My doc gave me 40 oxycodone and they were definitely needed, but when they ran out, the Tylenol was not doing the job, and I didn't want more oxy. Kratom has really been very useful for me during this recovery, more so than muscle relaxers, gabapentin, or tylenol (even in combination). I am being careful not to ever take it 2 days in a row. After a couple of more weeks to heal I will go back to a twice per week usage. But I have to admit, people who claim kratom is beneficial to keep people off opiates are right and I am experiencing that first hand right now.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I gotta give the plant some credit. Nobody has ever been recorded as a fatality from using just krater alone. All of the so-called fatalities, when really examined closely, had known substances all detected in the decedent's, system that ARE directly associated with fatal effects. FDA has not been quick to explain those factors, at ALL.


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## 3sigma (Jul 8, 2005)

Radium said:


> I gotta give the plant some credit. Nobody has ever been recorded as a fatality from using just krater alone. All of the so-called fatalities, when really examined closely, had known substances all detected in the decedent's, system that ARE directly associated with fatal effects. FDA has not been quick to explain those factors, at ALL.


Counterpoint: November 19, 2020 - The Gordon County Medical Examiner ruled McPherson *died from “acute mitragynine (kratom) toxicity.” *


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Just something to think about: If it works like an opiate, i.e. given in place of an opiate, it will likely have a risk for dependence.

There's no free lunch. It makes sense if you think about it.

It would behovely is we could block pain, but there's a problem with blocking nerve transmission ... it block nerve signals that allow use of those [parts of our body 

"Yes, you will be pain free"

"How long will it last?"

"Forever"


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Kratom doesn't depress breathing in the same way other opioids do, so it is safer in that way. Unfortunately, it's potential for addiction is pretty similar to other opioids. 

Apparently vitamin d deficiency makes one much more susceptible to opioid addiction, it's potential to cause euphoric anti-depressive effects is much stronger. 

These days I only touch kratom or anything else for extreme pain, last time was after a shoulder surgery 1.5 years ago. If you only take pain meds or kratom for a week at most there's much less potential for addiction. My $.02...


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

One thing that should be pointed out. Chemicals are chemicals, whether naturally occurring or synthesized in a lab.

One shouldn't take any real solace in the fact that a substance is "naturally occurring." Nor does "synthesized" mean that a substance is somehow bad. Indeed, the synthesized chemicals are often subjected to more rigorous testing and analysis than the naturally occurring ones.

Also, one thing about modern versions of "traditional remedies," and that is that they are often subject to cultivation and purification that make them much stronger than any variant that traditional cultures seem to have used safely for centuries ("seemed" may be a key word there).

Marijuana is a classic case of the above, both in terms of "it's natural, so it's safer than *__*" and the modern strains would blow the lid off traditional users and probably scare the crap out of them. This is not a comment on the safety or efficacy of marijuana.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

TwiceHorn said:


> Marijuana is a classic case of the above, both in terms of "it's natural, so it's safer than *__*" and the modern strains would blow the lid off traditional users and probably scare the crap out of them. This is not a comment on the safety or efficacy of marijuana.


This is a myth. 

The truth is, heirloom strains are often just as potent as any modern strain. Just like veggies and coffee, heirloom varieties are often better and more interesting vs modern hybrids. And at over 30% THC already, concentrating mj into hash only gets you double the potency, triple by chemical means, so it's nothing like refining opium. 

The claims that modern mj is so much more potent is a total fabrication based on the prevalence of low-quality commercial mexican mj. It used to be very common, a cheap alternative to indoor-grown high-end mj... maybe it still is but the move toward legalization has hopefully killed that market. In any case I can assure you there are indigenous varieties of mj all around the world that are just as potent as modern hybrids.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

As a 25 year sober alcoholic, I take some issue with Sancho on the medical community's responsibility for handing out highly addictive drugs like benzos and opiates while being blissfully unaware of (and in some cases misled or financially incented to ignore) their "addictive potential."

Every human that takes sufficient quantities of benzos and opiates or whatever will develop withdrawal, and those withdrawal symptoms cam excruciating, though not deadly. I can't prove it, but I suspect that a lot of the "addicts" in the recent opioid crisis aren't true psychophysiological addicts, but rather can't or don't suffer through the withdrawal and wind up spiraling downward. They are what was once called "physical" addicts.

The psychophysiological addict completes withdrawal, usually multiple separate times, and still, somewhat inexplicably, goes back to the drug of choice, weeks, months, or even years later. I feel that most of us would develop an addiction unless we were somehow lucky enough never to drink or be prescribed opiates, or whatever, and even then it might become some other compulsive behavior (gambling, sex, etc.).

Some sizable fraction of the opioid crisis "addicts" I don't think would have had addiction problems but for the overly casual prescription of highly addictive drugs. They are certainly a much higher percentage of their population than addicts overall.

The ultimate responsibility for recovery lies with the "addict," but the medical community is far from blameless. That said, I believe that good docs and medical professionals are increasingly conscious of addiction issues and less likely to believe that simple "medical supervision" will stave off any problems.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

davec113 said:


> This is a myth.
> 
> The truth is, heirloom strains are often just as potent as any modern strain. Just like veggies and coffee, heirloom varieties are often better and more interesting vs modern hybrids. And at over 30% THC already, concentrating mj into hash only gets you double the potency, triple by chemical means, so it's nothing like refining opium.
> 
> The claims that modern mj is so much more potent is a total fabrication based on the prevalence of low-quality commercial mexican mj. It used to be very common, a cheap alternative to indoor-grown high-end mj... maybe it still is but the move toward legalization has hopefully killed that market. In any case I can assure you there are indigenous varieties of mj all around the world that are just as potent as modern hybrids.


That is largely true as far as it goes. But marijuana has been commercially produced, i.e. cultivated, in Afghanistan and Pakistan for longer than probably any place in the world and I'm not sure we have any real botanical history, much less potency testing, for marijuana that goes back more than about 50 years, the era of Mexican dank weed, which probably does form an inaccurate baseline.

I suspect that modern, to include a couple of centuries, cultivation practices have improved the stuff dramatically in that time frame.

And the point still stands. Many natural substances were historically used beneficially in smaller quantities and with less cultivation and purification than modern variants. So people think, "oh, I'm just doing what the [fill in the ancient civilization] did", when that is not exactly true. And, I'm reasonably sure addiction was a scourge in any ancient civilization that discovered/used addictive substances.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

3sigma said:


> Counterpoint: November 19, 2020 - The Gordon County Medical Examiner ruled McPherson *died from “acute mitragynine (kratom) toxicity.” *


It will be interesting to see what happens in the lawsuit associated with this case. What the ME said may not necessarily be true. I'd like to see the toxicology report. The article I read is here:


https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article269902902.html



The family is only suing the brand of kratom that the decedent took, not the whole industry, thankfully. 

The article also states that kratom _"was responsible for the deaths of 91 people from July 2016 to December 2017, according to a report published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 2019."_

As Radium said, Kratom has been blamed for deaths where kratom was only one of many drugs ingested, but I really don't know if there is any established fact that it is, or is not, possible to OD on Kratom alone.

Personally It is hard to imagine OD'ing, unless it is from a very large dose of extract. The powdered leaf alone normally would make one puke at a dose much less than a toxic or fatal dose. 

Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article269902902.html#storylink=cpy


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

davec113 said:


> Yes, the drug war has been such a great success, the solution is obviously to have the government make your decisions for you...


Well, since it's sold in stores and through the mail, making it illegal would at least reduce availability.

I really doubt Kratum is in such high demand that it would make it on teh black market..

Straw man arguments ...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

TwiceHorn said:


> As a 25 year sober alcoholic, I take some issue with Sancho on the medical community's responsibility for handing out highly addictive drugs like benzos and opiates while being blissfully unaware of (and in some cases misled or financially incented to ignore) their "addictive potential."
> 
> Every human that takes sufficient quantities of benzos and opiates or whatever will develop withdrawal, and those withdrawal symptoms cam excruciating, though not deadly. I can't prove it, but I suspect that a lot of the "addicts" in the recent opioid crisis aren't true psychophysiological addicts, but rather can't or don't suffer through the withdrawal and wind up spiraling downward. They are what was once called "physical" addicts.
> 
> ...


Be careful throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as with all things there are legitimate benefits from opiates and benzos, even alcohol has legitimate benefits.

You have a problem with alcohol, as you well know, that problem is yours to own.

Your problem doesn't mean that you get to tell others they have a problem or that alcohol as a whole is a problem.

Check your judgment at the door.

I know far more about addiction than you'll even know, you know one case study, I know thousands.

=> Edit: I decided to add an edit because folks seem to think I didn’t read your post. Oh, I read it … just because you put some responsibility on the user, doesn’t minimize the snipe you took at me and medical providers for causing addiction. Your judgement of medical providers is quite clear.

Consider your past addiction to alcohol, how much blame do you to put on society, the media, your parents, consumerism, stores and restaurants, professional sports, etc …

I don’t treat pain, but I do treat opiate dependence with Buprenorphine, so you’re preaching to the choir when it comes to opiate abuse. I know all the pain providers in my community and it’s often my job to treat folks who are opiate dependent.

So here’s the thing: you can’t become addicted to something you never partake. When you chose to use alcohol; which has no legitimate medical purpose, you had a choice and you made it, that is 100% on you.

Now lets take someone who has a medical procedure, lisurgery, in this case opiates are the first line for treatment of pain, as much as folks will talk about “biting the bullet”, for real pain there’s no substitute for opiates.

You are correct, most people who use an addictive substance or engage in an addictive practice, will not become addicted. In your case you had a choice, not so for many others

It’s the exposure, the choice, and the genetics that lead to addictive habits.

You need to get off your high horse, cuz as far as I know, your study is entirely self serving.

Maybe you should try helping others instead of bashing on these who are helping others?

Oh, and I blocked your ass🖕


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## WillDB (Jul 15, 2020)

Sanchofula said:


> Be careful throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as with all things there are legitimate benefits from opiates and benzos, even alcohol has legitimate benefits.
> 
> You have a problem with alcohol, as you well know, that problem is yours to own.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure @TwiceHorn wrote that the responsibility lies with the addict. Like most things in life, his comment had nuance. As usual, you missed it. 

If you didn't catch what was clearly articulated, I am deeply concerned about your patients Not-A-Doctor Kadas.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Sanchofula said:


> Straw man arguments ...


I don't think you understand what a strawman argument is.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

WillDB said:


> Pretty sure @TwiceHorn wrote that the responsibility lies with the addict. Like most things in life, his comment had nuance. As usual, you missed it.
> 
> If you didn't catch what was clearly articulated, I am deeply concerned about your patients Not-A-Doctor Kadas.


Not only that, but he put a lot of words in my mouth. As in those drugs have no legitimate uses. Of course they do, but they need to be carefully prescribed and managed. Very carefully.

I have studied more than a few studies, but likely not as many as he has. I also have a whole lot of empirical work with addicts. I don't think I was being terribly judgey by pointing out that the medical community does in fact bear some responsibility for the opioid crisis. To contend otherwise is being overly defensive.

Another theory that I have, that apparently has some scientific backing, is that if one really is in acute pain, treated with addictive substances, the potential for even physical addiction/withdrawal seems lower. But as soon as the patient is no longer in that acute pain, but continues with the drug, is when the danger arises. 

When I broke my collarbone and mallet fractured my finger and had surgery, I was given a scrip for "tylenol iii," the one with codeine. This was my first potentially painful medical event in sobriety, so I took the prescription out of fear of the pain. But it wasn't that bad and I didn't take the pills. I might be a little mad at the surgeon for prescribing them, but it was a referral and I didn't spend much time with him and I don't think the subject came up with him, although I did mention it to my general ortho, who had cautioned against NSAIDS because of bone healing. I wound up taking very little pain medication of any sort during that recovery period. The pain just wasn't that bad.

Fear of pain I think can be an almost bigger issue than pain itself. I think quite a few people continue longer than they should with addictive pain meds out of that fear, and, subsidiarily, because they begin to "enjoy being high" without necessarily realizing it. Then they get into a physical withdrawal do-loop that they won't break and maybe end up using heroin or street pills, now featuring fentanyl, and that's all she wrote.

So that's maybe something to consider for people with prescriptions, or that are using substances for medical purposes. And it appears that many of the posters employing kratom are doing exactly that: trying to be conscious of when the medical utility ends and the "recreational" aspect begins.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

WillDB said:


> Pretty sure @TwiceHorn wrote that the responsibility lies with the addict. Like most things in life, his comment had nuance. As usual, you missed it.
> 
> If you didn't catch what was clearly articulated, I am deeply concerned about your patients Not-A-Doctor Kadas.


Actually, I’m a nurse practitioner, been practicing for twenty years, working in addiction medicine since the beginning, but I’m not a doctor so I must not know anything.

Since I don’t know anything, I won’t tell you about all the folks I’ve treated for addiction over the years, all the study and research I’ve done, nah, you can just let Google be your expert 👍

The care I provide is quite good, I see patients from all over, some travel hours to see me, many are referred to me because their “doctor” is providing poor care.

But yeah, I’m stoopid cuz I’m not a doctor, okay, gotcha.


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## WillDB (Jul 15, 2020)

Sanchofula said:


> But yeah, I’m stoopid cuz I’m not a doctor, okay, gotcha.


Maybe you should bone up on your reading comprehension. And perhaps whittle away at the large chip resting on your shoulder. 

The holier-than-thou schtick gets old.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Sanchofula said:


> Be careful throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as with all things there are legitimate benefits from opiates and benzos, even alcohol has legitimate benefits.
> 
> You have a problem with alcohol, as you well know, that problem is yours to own.
> 
> ...


Haha great you're a petulant dick, and arrogant to boot. I don't give a crap if you read my stuff or not.

It is telling that you come on hard and strong to a gentle, civil disagreement and block me like a pussy over one post. And again, say that I said things that I didn't say.

I'll tell you what though. Most addicts do what other people do. They take a drink, they take recreational drugs, they take prescription drugs as loosely and casually prescribed. They don't know ahead of time they're going to be an addict, by the time they discover it, it's too late to stop it other than by entering recovery.

You can pass your judgment on people for taking that first drink, or smoking that joint, or snorting that coke or whatever. Fine, that probably makes you a judgmental dick, but we already knew that. A huge percentage of this forum drinks a lot of beer, just like I did, but they are lucky enough not to have the predisposition for the disease. Are they worthy of your judgment?

You can start to pass judgment on addicts when they don't accept help and do what they need to do to recover.

And I can pass judgment on those who introduce them, overly casually, to addictive substances. The prescribing practices of a lot of docs relating to opiates, and to benzos, is deplorable. Not all, some. And I certainly didn't implicate you in that, just your profession, if being a baby doc counts.

Also, I have been sober and helping people for longer than you have, and I don't get paid for it. 

I think we all know who's on their high horse here and also a gigantic pussy.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Since he's being such a twat about it. I need to rebut.


Sanchofula said:


> Be careful throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as with all things there are legitimate benefits from opiates and benzos, even alcohol has legitimate benefits.
> 
> *I didn't say any of that, even remotely.*
> 
> ...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TwiceHorn said:


> And I can pass judgment on those who introduce them, overly casually, to addictive substances. The prescribing practices of a lot of docs relating to opiates, and to benzos, is deplorable. Not all, some. And I certainly didn't implicate you in that, just your profession, if being a baby doc counts.


A lot of Docs were prescribing these medications because the manufacturer claimed they weren't addictive. They were slow-release, so they were supposed to control the release and not be like popping a bunch of codeine straight into your system...except you could defeat this by chewing them up and the drug companies were being naïve with this claim. Then there were docs not part if this former category that prescribed these like candy, as in opioids to whomever wanted them, for whatever purpose. These were not just docs, they were drug dealers and people that should have (and did) have their medical licenses revoked. They weren't prescribing for medical purposes. As in most things, this was a nuanced problem, the drug companies coming up with these slow-release opioids were trying to tout them as "not really opioids" or at least not the usual side effects and then some bad doctors (and nurse practitioners) also got in line and rode the gravy train.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Jayem said:


> A lot of Docs were prescribing these medications because the manufacturer claimed they weren't addictive. They were slow-release, so they were supposed to control the release and not be like popping a bunch of codeine straight into your system...except you could defeat this by chewing them up and the drug companies were being naïve with this claim. Then there were docs not part if this former category that prescribed these like candy, as in opioids to whomever wanted them, for whatever purpose. These were not just docs, they were drug dealers and people that should have (and did) have their medical licenses revoked. They weren't prescribing for medical purposes. As in most things, this was a nuanced problem, the drug companies coming up with these slow-release opioids were trying to tout them as "not really opioids" or at least not the usual side effects and then some bad doctors (and nurse practitioners) also got in line and rode the gravy train.


I'm quite aware of that. That pertains to Oxycontin and that particular drug only.

The rate of other prescription opiates also skyrocketed in tandem with Oxycontin, and they can claim no such features.

I don't think Purdue Pharma was being naive at all. They were being greedy as hell, and, frankly, Richard Sackler is probably psychotic. They may have believed their theories at first, but the evidence quickly revealed that their theories were no good, but they didn't back off them, they doubled down to increase sales. In addition to their aggressive and disingenuous marketing of Oxycontin, Purdue Pharma largely created a new "philosophy" of treatment in which "pain is the fifth vital sign." There is room for argument that pain management was often overlooked, but this was fairly ridiculous and pushed for non-medical reasons, i.e. profit. It is now a discredited philosophy.

I know medical professionals can't be experts at everything they deal with, particularly as concerns a "secondary" problem like pain management, but I have a strong feeling that they were pretty credulous to Purdue Pharma's claims about Oxycontin and pain management more broadly. And that's been a problem between pharma and medicine in a lot of areas.

At any rate, the empirical evidence became quite clear quite soon that, even without defeating the time-release, the rate of addiction to Oxycontin was similar to other opioids, when prescribed at the same levels. And of course, those medicos prescribing conventional opioids like hydrocodone, can't even fall back on Purdue's claims as an excuse for their negligence.

But my main beef is that doctors, who have patients in serious pain, need to be more rigorous about cutting patients off more rapidly, while titrating them off the drugs and counseling them about alternatives to opioids and the psychology of pain and pain tolerance, or referring them to those who can.

There are always going to be cases where the pain from a condition is going to be so acute and chronic that opioid drugs are the only solution. I think for most of those folks, any addiction issues are going to be distantly second to that condition so that if they ever recover from the condition sufficiently not to legitimately require narcotic pain relievers, it would be a virtual miracle and the addiction, if any, can be dealt with then.

Just about every medical professional I have encountered in sobriety seems to have some degree of consciousness of addiction issues beyond "it can happen." And they have appeared to be conscientious about my own concerns and accommodating them and I think that would extend to being pretty careful about managing narcotic prescriptions. But I don't live in a city or region where manual industrial labor constitutes a lot of the patient base, with those kind of injuries that seem to be ripe for the overprescription of pain drugs.

And that may be a function of the "rurality" of the doctors, their education levels, and diligence in continuing education, or even what continuing education is available to them.

So, it's certainly not all of them, but a pretty alarming number, and I'm not even talking about those that crossed the line into criminality.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Please pardon my ranting. It's a subject about which I am pretty passionate, for what should be obvious reasons.

And nothing grinds my gears like having a post badly misinterpreted, with certainty and personal attacks.


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