# What really determines a bike's trick, hop, and manual potential; weight, CS, ... ???



## alwinvrm (Jan 31, 2021)

What does mostly determine a bike's potential to do a manual, bunny hop, or wheelie other than the rider?

I am 60+ and want to make hops, etc. as easy as possible for myself (I may never succeed, but let's say it's about the journey ...). I would like to stick with a 29 wheels hardtail. I now have a 3.2 kilo steel frame and I wonder whether a 1.8 kilo alu frame, although with a 1 cm longer chain stay and 2 cm longer wheelbase will make hopping, etc. easier. Hence the question.

On this forum I read that the following factors positively influence the potential to do hops, etc. I am sure I forgot things. Just for the sake of it, could we place them in a rough order of importance or impossible?

-shorter chain stay
-shorter wheelbase / (front center length)
-take bike a smaller size or 2 than recommended (but how far can you go with that?)
-moderate or at least not too slack head tube angle (related to wheelbase?)
-lighter bike
-lighter wheels
-hardtail


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

If your current steel bike fits you, there's little reason to think that going longer on CS or WB is going to do anything other than hurt the cause.


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## Loll (May 2, 2006)

430mm or shorter chain stain, short reach, short wheelbase are good ingredients for manual and hops.

But then mostly is endless practice. Once uou know how to do a manual you can do it on most bikes.


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

When I was a kid I had a Schwinn Stingray with a banana seat, a really small sprocket, and ape-hanger like handlebars. And of course I rode flat pedals, and the seat was probably way too low for max pedalling efficiency. But on that bike, I could wheelie the entire length of the playground at my school (maybe 70 yards or so) ten times in a row. There was no fear of going off the back, not being able to bail out, etc.

Now, with experience with about 20 various mountain bikes and a few BMX bikes over the past 30 years, I can't wheelie to save my life. Clipless pedals are scary, and riding on big wheels with a big bike (29er) means you have to commit to being way up there when you're riding the wheelie--I'm afraid to fall over the back. The closest I came was with a 20 inch BMX bike, where I geared it low, rode flat pedals, got a lay back seatpost, put the seat low, wore shin guards---but still I could only wheelie a few yards. The lay back post didn't put me as far back as that old banana seat did on my Schwinn Stingray. I'll never wheelie again, I'm resigned.


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## robbbery (Jan 12, 2021)

As someone who has given a lot of thought to why I can hop a bmx bike but not my 29er xc hardtail, I'd say your list is in more or less the correct order. Except that I'm not sure why head tube angle would matter, all else being equal... what's the thinking there? 

I also might add something like handlebar height to the list, or at least the ratio of handlebar height to wheelbase.

Then again since I got no hops, there's obviously something I'm missing so maybe you should take what I think and conclude the exact opposite!


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## alwinvrm (Jan 31, 2021)

Thanx, for the replies. Doing tricks on a 29 appears not to be that 'normal'. I mountain biked for a few months in 1986 or something, no forks, no trails, people thought you were trying to commit suicide when you pointed your wheels downhill.

Having said that, I do remember how light and nimble my 26 Cannondale was; modern bikes are more capable in some ways, but so much heavier.

Maybe 27.5 is the way to go for tricks, but that would mean new wheels, tires, and frame; 29 just the frame. If doing hops doesn't work out on a new 29 frame, at least I have a lighter frame. In case 27.5 doesn't work out, I am left with useless wheels, tires, and frame.


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## robbbery (Jan 12, 2021)

Well, I definitely see no shortage of people on YouTube who are hopping and launching off stuff effortlessly on their 29ers, so it must be learnable, even if it's not as easy as on a 26er or bmx. I'd like to think some 29ers are harder than others (to make me feel better about why I'm having such a hard time), but also that is not impossible even then (so I can still have hope).


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

There's a reason that big wheels aren't the usual choice for stunt/BMX/trials riding.


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## Loll (May 2, 2006)

Folks, I m not a great rider, but have over the years been able to manual a 29er across a 6 lane intersection couple times at least. May be I can again chime in.

First, you must learn on smaller wheel to understand the feeling and the rocking back and forth motion. Once you learn that on a 26”, then it is a ton of practice. When I was learning I literally practiced half an hour during lunch everyday, on work days. Eventually you will learn the balance point. It is much more dramatic with a 29er.

Also, slight downhill helps. The ideal slope is like a handicap ramp. Also, on a 29er I use very short stem with high rise dh handlebar. And max out your stem spacers while you are at it. I saw a YouTube video once where the guy reversed his stem to learn the feel.

It took me about half a year nonstop daily practice to begin understanding the manual on a 26er. I used a dirt jumper with short chainstay which helped alot. It was another few more years before I can do it on a 29er semi good. Lots of practice. I mean lots.

For bunny hop, if you are having a hard time doing a jhop on a 29er, revert back to the regular front and back same time bunny hop first.

Man...if I am one of your neighbors, I did love to physically show you guys how to do all of these things. Again, I am no pro, but endless practice is key. If you dont have giant blisters on your hand as a result, you are not practicing enough.


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## alwinvrm (Jan 31, 2021)

Loll said:


> Folks, I m not a great rider, but have over the years been able to manual a 29er across a 6 lane intersection couple times at least. May be I can again chime in.
> ...
> Man...if I am one of your neighbors, I did love to physically show you guys how to do all of these things. Again, I am no pro, but endless practice is key. If you dont have giant blisters on your hand as a result, you are not practicing enough.


Thanks, that is a great post putting things into the proper perspective. When you see 'how to manual' videos on you tube it looks as if one afternoon or maybe max 2 weeks of practicing manuals a couple of times a week should get you there. And not being able to do manuals on my 29er after a month of 10 minute pre-ride practicing (+- 80 minutes) made me feel like a total looser. Hope (however unfounded) is a nice feeling  , time to work on the blisters


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## Loll (May 2, 2006)

10 mintes is no wear near enough. Cliche quote that is true....you need to feel “be one with the bike”. I first learn what is manual when I was 15. Casual practice for 20 years got me no where. It has to be an aggress repeat the same move practice, that one single motion, for half an hour in my case, everyday, that did it. Also, it helps to do it with someone who is successful at it. Dont give up you all. I m still practicing every ride, and is been another closed to decade.


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## trialsrookie (Nov 8, 2005)

@alwinvrm I know it's probably not the thing you are happy to hear, but I think rather than spending time and money on gear (decisions), sign up for Ryan Leech's online program and go through his bunnyhop masterclass. I think he even has a 5 week bunnyhop challenge.

What I can tell you from my personal experience: it takes a TON of committed practice. I've only started last fall (sort of my Corona challenge) and it took me lots of deliberate practice to be able to hop. And yes I had blisters  My max is at around 35cm now so I'm quite satisfied but there is still lots of room for improvement. On the other hand, my bikes don't matter that much: I have started on my 26" Chameleon, but on my full sus Tracer as well as on my new, modern geometry 29in HT bike it works equally well. Heck, 'Berm Peak' bunnyhops a walmart bike with water inflated tires on his YT channel and it works.

If you really want to push your limits, of course a trials (or maybe BMX) bike would be best, but for practical trail riding skills just use the bike you are familiar with and it will work.


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## alwinvrm (Jan 31, 2021)

Thanks @trialsrookie 
In the meantime I bought a BC original Podsol. It is an almost 1.5 kg lighter bike. I use different gears and hardly use the wagon wheel gear that I normally used quite often. So my overall comfort level increased, but I had no illusions anymore about magically becoming a better hopper. I suppose a dirt jumper would make it easier, but, as you said, I just want to ride my trail bike and not a dirt jumper. So I better practice on that one. I will check your suggestion and will probably go for it and change my mindset to practicing endlessly. Thanks


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## trialsrookie (Nov 8, 2005)

Practicing endlessly sounds a bit fatalistic, but there is this nice mantra ... it's a journey, not a destination!


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## alwinvrm (Jan 31, 2021)

trialsrookie said:


> Practicing endlessly sounds a bit fatalistic, but there is this nice mantra ... it's a journey, not a destination!


Not fatalistic, just accepting my fate  that it will take quite a lot of practice. Visualising 'Endless' practice helps me not to bother too much about the final goal but indeed to do the journey, enjoy the practice, cherish baby steps, and prevent frustration.

In that sense this thread has been extremely useful; no need to be frustrated, if you can't manual after one afternoon of practice. Maybe I will never learn it, but I just enjoy cycling and practicing hops, etc. adds another dimension to that.

Taking lessons, even remote, is another useful option I learned about, probably more valuable than any bike.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

trialsrookie said:


> Practicing endlessly sounds a bit fatalistic, but there is this nice mantra ... it's a journey, not a destination!


Fatalistic? Not really, persistent, well, ya.

Frankly, the whole play on a bike thing for some comes a little more naturally than for others. Hours and hours of practice is likely to take a person into progression that rewards.
An evening in the front yard for 30-60 minutes, several times a week or perhaps more frequently is a good way to progress. It is genuinely all about time spent doing!
Ryan Leech and a few others are helpful to gain some direction in how to... That can give the basics and the individual sorts it out from there.


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## Gilarider (Jul 13, 2009)

Here is my list of priorities, as a short rider who couldn't bunnyhop because of my old bikes' geometries/setup:

1) short chainstays
2) short reach(short stem, then shorter top tube, if necessary)
3) high BB
4) high bars

Nothing else on the OP's list really matters that much, in my opinion. Everything on my list makes your bike ride worse in most other respects. The trick is to balance being able to lift the front end and keep enough weight over the front tire to corner and a low enough center of gravity so you don't get speed wobbles.

That said, if you can already loop your bike out just by getting back over your rear wheel, you don't need to change anything, just practice. If you can't loop out, start by raising your bars with spacers, then try a shorter stem, then higher bars, that should help you get your front wheel off the ground.


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

Yup practice practice practice. But really you should change the wording to play play play! Make games out if it. Find like minded riders to session with.
you can use just about any bike, but certain things make it easier. When i was into trials, i got myself a steel hardtail that was way small. Put riser bars with high stem, but stem was fairly long since bike so short. Heavy duty 26” rims, widest tires that fit. Seat slammed all the wat down. Light makes it easier, but you need parts that wont break.
Practice is key! Have you ever watched the behind the scene of Danny Macaskill videos? Hes got mad skills, but it takes him hundreds of times to land some of his tricks.
Oh and because practice so much, good grips and gloves. Also good pedals, shoes, shin gaurds.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Taroroot said:


> Yup practice practice practice. But really you should change the wording to play play play! Make games out if it. Find like minded riders to session with.
> you can use just about any bike, but certain things make it easier. When i was into trials, i got myself a steel hardtail that was way small. Put riser bars with high stem, but stem was fairly long since bike so short. Heavy duty 26" rims, widest tires that fit. Seat slammed all the wat down. Light makes it easier, but you need parts that wont break.
> Practice is key! Have you ever watched the behind the scene of Danny Macaskill videos? Hes got mad skills, but it takes him hundreds of times to land some of his tricks.
> Oh and because practice so much, good grips and gloves. Also good pedals, shoes, shin gaurds.


This is on point! The first two lines are the way to make progression less daunting and more a pleasure.
For what it is worth, I still have a KOXX Red Sky stock bike cause mods are too clowny.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Wheelies are easier on a e bike, because of the power, but manuals are a lot tougher. 

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

rod9301 said:


> Wheelies are easier on a e bike, because of the power, but manuals are a lot tougher.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


Long live the one speed automatic!😎


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