# First of it’s kind in the Nation



## jfeiro (Oct 9, 2009)

http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/ne...nches-first-nation-bicycle-fabrication-degree


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

This is not a good thing. It's a very bad thing for students.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

pvd said:


> This is not a good thing. It's a very bad thing for students.


Seems pretty sweet if they know what's valuable that the course offers. Students learn metals knowledge/calculations, basic machining/welding skills, how to work with fussy/obnoxious individuals (like, business and customer relations type stuff), and how to interact with/ignore entrenched self-appointed cognoscenti (public relations stuff). If they go in to the program without planning to be framebuilders (but possibly being socially-competent metalworkers) it seems like an awesome experience and such a person should have no trouble finding work in the future.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Anything hands on mechanical teaches problem solving and critical thinking skills.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

If bicycles are the hook to get people to learn math and fabrication skills, that's fine.

I'd be very wary of a program that advertises itself as a route to being a professional framebuilder or working in the bike industry, though. It would be a disservice to the students to pretend that either of those routes are a realistic career goal for anyone that isn't extremely motivated and lucky. 

-Walt


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

Walt said:


> If bicycles are the hook to get people to learn math and fabrication skills, that's fine.
> 
> I'd be very wary of a program that advertises itself as a route to being a professional framebuilder or working in the bike industry, though. It would be a disservice to the students to pretend that either of those routes are a realistic career goal for anyone that isn't extremely motivated and lucky.
> 
> -Walt


Perhaps they could incorporate such a warning into the curriculum - "this is to whet your appetite for the making of things". I think, given the chance, people would build a frame or two, look at the financial sheets and time sheets involved, and be like "SCREW THIS" and get a different job, all voluntarily by drawing their own conclusions!

That's why I don't think the class is a bad idea. I specifically went to a course to build a bamboo bike to start out, and over the long term I really came away with cautionary tales of what not to do. I got a nugget of confidence and some strong zones of "I want to avoid ____", and it was helpful over time. I don't regret going.

Respect to you Walt for acknowledging the amount of privilege required to build bicycles professionally. It does not make us bad or impossible-to-exist people; it makes us unlikely people, existing on the fringes, willing to put in ridiculously large efforts for specific goals.

IMO, PVD, no need to FUD.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

It's like teaching kindergarten and giving out a college diploma. A complete disservice to the students. Ignorant and lame.

Screw it, at least they'll end up in debt and jobless after wasting a few years.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)




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## eMcK (Aug 22, 2007)

Jumping to conclusions is always a good look.

In case anyone cares, here is the course list:

ARTS1223Introduction to the Digital Arts and Creative Multimedia 3 cr
ENGL1215College Writing I 3 cr
MATH1220College Algebra 3 cr
MATH1230Introduction to Statistics 3 cr
PHYS1215College Physics I 4 cr
16 crs
TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS
BIKE1010Oxy-Fuel Welding, GMAW, Plasma and Flame Cutting, and Brazing for Bikes 3 cr
BIKE1020Machining for Bikes 3 cr
BIKE1030CAD CAM 3 cr
BIKE1040History and Theory of Bike Design 3 cr
BIKE1050AL-FE-SS-TI Welding for Bikes 3 cr
BIKE1060CNC for Bikes 3 cr
BIKE1070Solidworks 3 cr
BIKE20103D Prototyping 3 cr
BIKE2020Carbon Fiber & Composites 5 cr
BIKE2040Mechanics-Materials-Springs 3 cr
BIKE2050Chains-Gears-Belts-Linkages-Drivetrains 3 cr
BIKE2060Bicycle Electronics & Test Fixture Automation 3 cr
BIKE2070Physics for Bikes 1 cr
BIKE2080Safety and PPE 1 cr
BIKE2090Capstone 4 cr


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Orville and Wilbur can tell you where that can lead.

With that skill set the possibilities are endless.

Great idea for a course.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

That's a pretty sad curriculum. Essentially, the student will be building a bike over two years.

Then what? They are useless to most industries. In fact, they're a hazard. Any job that they'd be looking for is done by Mexicans for minimum wage. What was accomplished?

A real trade school training in a real trade could make sense....if we needed trades people in the US. But we don't. 

I think that this tells the whole story:

"The idea to start the program came from another program that already exists at the college - the guitar repair and building program."


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Also, if I can go to NAHBS or talk to a designer at a bicycle company and they have no idea about bicycle geometry, fit, handling, or much else, how is it going to be taught at a college level? All I can imagine is some 22 year old hipster will end up teaching it like they did at CCA. It was a joke but at least that was just an "art" school.


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

pvd said:


> Also, if I can go to NAHBS or talk to a designer at a bicycle company and they have no idea about bicycle geometry, fit, handling, or much else, how is it going to be taught at a college level? All I can imagine is some 22 year old hipster will end up teaching it like they did at CCA. It was a joke but at least that was just an "art" school.


Dude there are 12 posts on this including the OP and you're five of them. Calm down.

The program sounds like fun, but if someone does it and expects a great job or to start their own successful business after they may be disappointed.

I had the opportunity (and I took it, multiple times) to learn most of those skills in highschool. The kids that had a penchant for it did some pretty incredible things. Many of us were ROP certified, and a number also got certified in various forms of welding.

But the value I place on those skills is something that can be learned in highschool. Going to an extensive program such as this would not be worthwhile if it is so purpose-built around bicycles.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

pvd said:


> Also, if I can go to NAHBS or talk to a designer at a bicycle company and they have no idea about bicycle geometry, fit, handling, or much else, how is it going to be taught at a college level?


They'll bring in an advanced industry track:

BIKE3001: Mathematical Interpolation for Geometry Charts 
BIKE3002: Technical Mandarin 
BIKE3003: The Art of the Bro-deal (limited to male attendees)
BIKE3004: Gear Ratios for Pros
BIKE3005: Intro to Physiology (cancelled)
BIKE3006: Bankruptcy Law / Mental Health Awareness (split semester)


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## Equinox_Bikes (Nov 22, 2016)

There is actually a much broader issue here in “higher” education. So many degrees that offer little or nothing for the accumulated debt. There needs to be more truth-in-education: sit an 18/19 year old down and say look, this is what these options will cost, here’s the expected placement rate and salary. Show them the math doesn’t work for many of the degrees currently on the menu. I know people will say “they’re adults, and should figure it out,” but facts show otherwise when you look at the amount of student debt in our country. (Also, the brain isn’t done forming until about age 25, so they’re more like proto-adults.) Since so many institutions are making money on this deal, it’s not likely there will be change anytime soon, so the best we can do is talk to the young adults in our lives and try to help them realize the facts.

How do we not need more skilled trades people in our country? I worked in heavy industry for years and we could never find enough electricians, welders, etc. I still work with lots of contractors and it’s the same story - skill shortage. The problem is it’s no longer glamorous to be a plumber, but reality is at 7pm on a Sunday when your basement floor drain is plugged and it’s raining 2 inches an hour, a plumber is a superhero.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I think both Dr. Welby and Equinox get it.

I've got a reason for my thinking. I've worked at a major US University for almost 15 years, I've spent nearly all of my career as a machinist, mechanic, and engineer, and I'm also an expert on bicycle design. Looking at a program that is proposed here is just a sad joke. Even worse that it's in Minnesota.

I loved manufacturing when I started at the end of the eighties. I left that world early in the zeros. Making a living doing that was just waiting to hear about the next round of layoffs or plant closings. I found secure work in academia. Things have gotten far worse since. You'd have to be completely stupid to try to get a job in trades in the US other than contract remodeling, domestic electrical, or domestic plumbing. You'll do far better and work easy as the worst engineer than the best machinist.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

It really should be

BIKE1010 Oxy-Fuel Welding, GMAW, Plasma and Flame Cutting, and Brazing for Bikes 3 cr
BIKE1015 Commercial HVAC and how to buy a Corvette with cash before you're 30

(My commercial HVAC guy could double his rate a no one would blink)


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## Equinox_Bikes (Nov 22, 2016)

I would argue that engineering is a trade (and getting a degree in engineering is essentially going to trade school - though the end products have a wider spread of proficiency than traditional trades).


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Equinox_Bikes said:


> I would argue that engineering is a trade (and getting a degree in engineering is essentially going to trade school - though the end products have a wider spread of proficiency than traditional trades).


If you believe that, you have a skewed definition of "engineering."

Engineers are people who invent new technology.

People who implement existing technology are called "technicians."

The schooling for the former is quite rigorous and theoretical, the latter, nowhere near as much.


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## Equinox_Bikes (Nov 22, 2016)

I’m an engineer. I work as an engineer. Most engineers don’t invent anything new. Many technicians do.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Equinox_Bikes said:


> I'm an engineer. I work as an engineer. Most engineers don't invent anything new. Many technicians do.


Technicians being on the pointy end of things often do it as a matter of necessity as a "field improvement".


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

I understand PVD's position and it is good that he explained himself this time....

In New Zealand I now work in the Construction Sector. Have done since turning 25yrs old. I have seen the trades go through cycles of change. 
We had periods of boom, then bust. Qualified people would leave the district to find employment during a bust period or go overseas. We had these 'brain drains' regularly. Then we had a growing market and boom - Earthquakes. We did not have the workforce to re-build our broken country, so, we opened the country up for workers to come here. Ireland's glowing economy collapsed and we had Irishmen flooding in. Now the work is completing and the Irish are moving on. The world is changing and qualified people are still needed. The workforce is becoming more mobile, and they are reading the market better. Whether this course is useful or not will take time to emerge, but as I found out, it is a really good hobby, but don't give up your day job.

Eric


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

There are two ways to look at this:

1) This is an educational offering that will prepare students for a lucrative career in the bicycle-making industry. 

That smells, as PVD was too polite to say, like horseshit.

2) This is a collection of classes that will teach students a variety of skills that will server them well in a variety of industries. To put all of those skills into context, and to help the lessons sink in, each students will apply what they learn to the design and construction of their very own bicycle. 

That's a damn fine way to teach.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

NWS said:


> 2) This is a collection of classes that will teach students a variety of skills that will server them well in a variety of industries. To put all of those skills into context, and to help the lessons sink in, each students will apply what they learn to the design and construction of their very own bicycle.
> 
> That's a damn fine way to teach.


I agree, but the mix of classes is somewhat disappointing. There's a bunch of classes in that curriculum that are just bicycle masturbation that anyone whose gonna make it in a bike-related field is going to learn because passion. On the other hand, i know a lot of engineers/ creators/ fabricators... and their ability to look at a problem and disregard the wisdom of others is a blessing and a curse. They struggle to understand the client's expectation/vision or recognize when to build off the shoulders of giants.

To me this is a really interesting part of building custom frames- you need to completely understand the craft.... and then be able to apply that craft to someone who isn't you, who has different expectations and experiences that are just as (more?) valid as your own. From what i've seen the successful framebuilders follow one of two models. They narrowly define their scope and refine it so they're unquestionably the expert within that realm, or they learn the spectrum of what's possible and establish that they understand the fringe cases and can build something fantastic for each weirdo. Really both is happening, but that's building a business...

Half of that is marketing, half of it is entrepreneurship, half is tactical empathy. It's way more useful than learning electric drivetrain or whatever. I'm disappointed the program doesn't require some communications or business classes over the bike design minutiae classes.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

NWS said:


> 2) This is a collection of classes that will teach students a variety of skills that will server them well in a variety of industries. To put all of those skills into context, and to help the lessons sink in, each students will apply what they learn to the design and construction of their very own bicycle.
> 
> That's a damn fine way to teach.


You've put far too much faith in the educational industrial complex. You should go visit a school and see what they "teach". You might rethink much of this.


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## kubikeman (Jun 4, 2010)

From the article that OP posted:

"The program has been approved by the college. Beginning in January, students could enroll in general education classes such as algebra and physics in the 60-credit program which leads to a two-year associate of applied science degree."

What's wrong with that? It gives students a college education, it's only two years, and the skills probably transfer to more industries than just bikes.


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## Erichimedes (Jul 30, 2010)

Sure, this course is incomplete and takes a long time to teach the basics, but how is that different from any other college degree? Anyone who enters a career they studied in college has barely begun their education by the time they graduate. No college degree in the world guarantees a career, that's up to the student. But it sure is a good start, and I think that's all this program is.

I mean, it results in a 2-year Associate of Applied Science degree. Anyone who thinks that guarantees them success in the world is in for a wake-up call anyway.


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## doug fattic (Mar 11, 2010)

Just as a reminder a college degree from a typical American liberal arts college/university is not designed as training for a specific job (although sometimes it does). It is to acquaint the student with a broad range of subjects that makes them a more informed citizen that is better able to do whatever job they finally choose. This is why the requirements for graduation include courses in about every department. The European educational model is different.

As the cost of college education has increased bringing with it larger student loans, it has sharpened the focus on the value of certain college degrees. It can be a hard sell to convince someone to take anthropology, art history or English literature as a way to make real money in the future. There is increasing competition among colleges for a reducing number of customers/students. They try to find a new area of study that will bring in more paying students. My best friend from the high school I attended in India was the academic dean of a college that has training in disaster rescue and relief. That popular major is a huge help to their bottom line. This effort needs to be seen in the context of all the other majors that have questionable job finding value. While in college, a student with any major has the opportunity to find a future mate (where most of the decent candidates are located) and have time to mature out of their idiot adolescence stage. Isn’t that the real purpose of college?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

doug fattic said:


> Just as a reminder a college degree from a typical American liberal arts college/university is not designed as training for a specific job (although sometimes it does). It is to acquaint the student with a broad range of subjects that makes them a more informed citizen that is better able to do whatever job they finally choose.


College to help decide what you should actually go to college for.

Still one born every minute...at least!


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## Damon777 (Jun 11, 2012)

This is 12 miles away from me. I actually considered submitting a resume as my experience lines up with the bending and fabrication side of the program. I decided against it just based on it being an adjunct position at a tech school.

They're basing this one on the success of their luthier program. This is a pretty highly regarded program locally, but I know a few graduates who do nothing related to guitar building since graduation. When I first saw the job postings, I too wondered where the demand is for this type of program.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

scottzg said:


> There's a bunch of classes in that curriculum that are just bicycle masturbation


I totally agree. The courses would be much better as a "small-scale metal fabrication" degree, with more focus on business and generic shop skills, especially prototyping and fixturing. Then at the end you could build bikes, truck bumpers, or whatever, and submit a business plan.

But I get it from the school's perspective - specific programs like this help attract students.


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## doug fattic (Mar 11, 2010)

I taught bicycle frame building classes in a university setting for several years in the late 70's. It was one of the most satisfying things I've ever done. Some students were enthusiastic cyclists but some took it just to fulfill their general ed requirements. It made a bigger difference in their lives than I expected. For starters the none-cyclists got into riding because finally they had something decent that fit them properly. After they started riding they started to feel better and paid more attention to what they ate etc. This got them going in a direction of regular exercise and a more healthy life style that continued to benefit them long after they finished college.


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

Agree with the dubious nature of the business/work opportunity after completing this program. However, a 4 year degree absolutely pays off in the long run, despite the years not working and accumulating debt. Even if you do something totally ludicrous like get a degree in Chinese from a private liberal arts school, your much more likely to be well employees in the long run. I’ve not seen studies on associates degrees, but I’d imagine the results would be similar.


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## eMcK (Aug 22, 2007)

This looks more like a foot in the door than a short route to a corner office.

More general fabrication, less navel-gazing bike specific stuff seems like it would make for a more well-rounded student. Also, no suspension design and theory course?


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## Austin-nc (Apr 18, 2018)

Yeah I would also say this is probably better off as a slightly more generic focus but the skills acquired are pretty solid. I work for a manufacturing company I have a engineer job title but not an engineering degree, took some different certification and tech classes but no 4 year degree and weve hired many people with 4 year degrees that are fresh from school and unfortunately they just cant cut it. They know a lot of things but they also may not know what a piece of angle iron is or the difference between stainless and carbon steel are. We would sometimes have better luck pulling a machinist off the floor and plopping him in a desk usually. 

And whoever is saying trade skills are not in demand is majorly incorrect at least here on the east coast. We are always on the hunt for capable CNC machinists and welders. It's not out of the ordinary to pay 30+ an hour off the bat for someone with good programming knowledge and experience, were talking machinists/programmers not operators. 30+ an hour is pretty decent money in this part of the country.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

twodownzero said:


> If you believe that, you have a skewed definition of "engineering."
> 
> Engineers are people who invent new technology.
> 
> ...


As an engineer, this is not what generally happens IRL.

Engineers most often use existing tech to design new products. If you're lucky you get to direct technicians to implement what you want in CAD, run analysis, etc. instead of having to do it yourself, but many engineers do a lot of work a technician should probably be doing.

Scientists are generally the ones who invent new tech.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

davec113 said:


> many engineers do a lot of work a technician should probably be doing.


And vice-versa (based upon my 25 years as a designer/CAD monkey)


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> And vice-versa (based upon my 25 years as a designer/CAD monkey)


Absolutely. I'd rather work with an experienced CAD tech/designer vs a new engineer.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

davec113 said:


> Absolutely. I'd rather work with an experienced CAD tech/designer vs a new engineer.


Yeah, experience designers definitely can help whip some reality onto green engineers. Just as the field guys/installers/technicians/tradespeople do for us...all part of the learning process. 

The absolute best engineers/designers by far are the ones who have come up through the ranks and have first person, hands-on experience. There's no substitute for it.


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

dr.welby said:


> They'll bring in an advanced industry track:
> 
> BIKE3001: Mathematical Interpolation for Geometry Charts
> BIKE3002: Technical Mandarin
> ...


next year how to make your customers better and less of complete set of overbearing twunts


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

davec113 said:


> As an engineer, this is not what generally happens IRL.
> 
> Engineers most often use existing tech to design new products. If you're lucky you get to direct technicians to implement what you want in CAD, run analysis, etc. instead of having to do it yourself, but many engineers do a lot of work a technician should probably be doing.
> 
> Scientists are generally the ones who invent new tech.


id have to argue here as i get told im **** if i dont invent new **** using all the old ****, whilst figuring out why the phd 's new **** isnt working

On a serious note however i find most of my PHD student problems stem from the fact they have no idea what actually went before.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

There needs to be a graduate level course, “How Not To Respond To Flaming Of Your Product On The Internet”.

Many have failed this course.


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

Researchers: Experiment with ideas/techniques/materials that haven't been proven to work. Don't get the respect they deserve, because most of what they try doesn't work (which is an unavoidable part of the learning process - if you're not failing you're not trying), and also because the stuff that does work takes years to show up in actual products.

Engineers: Create products using fundamentals proven by researchers, adding their own creativity and innovations, plus an understanding of what customers need. Don't get the respect they deserve, because when products work, nobody notices. People only notice when products fail.

Technicians: Work on products in the field, find out what customers are really doing and what they really need, and solving problems created by the engineers and researchers. Don't get the respect they deserve, because they're mostly doing maintenance (which is, like, just an expense, you know) or repair (and that **** shouldn't have failed in the first place, dammit).


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## octanejake (Oct 11, 2010)

It would appear that you may now have a chance to influence the curriculum, if you're into that kind of thing.

https://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=bd2fe7f042b41de0&tk=1cvrl22bf0njl005&from=serp&vjs=3


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## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

pvd said:


> This is not a good thing. It's a very bad thing for students.





scottzg said:


> Seems pretty sweet if they know what's valuable that the course offers. Students learn metals knowledge/calculations, basic machining/welding skills, how to work with fussy/obnoxious individuals (like, business and customer relations type stuff), and how to interact with/ignore entrenched self-appointed cognoscenti (public relations stuff). If they go in to the program without planning to be framebuilders (but possibly being socially-competent metalworkers) it seems like an awesome experience and such a person should have no trouble finding work in the future.


I doubt that either if you read the article. It was mentioned in the article that the high emphasis on physics and math in addition to the hands on will allow a student to take these skills into other professions.

Too many engineers have a basic degree with NO hands on experience. No practical applications from which to draw conclusions and create a realistic, non problematic work flow.

This is a great idea to get students involved in engineers by making it tangible. When I studied physics, I found it very boring until I read a book about building racing engine and the writer incorporated heat pump theory and thermal dynamics into the picture. Once he showed the tangible applications of many subjects we studied in physics, it suddenly became interesting and it also became much easier to understand the theories and principles. My grade immediately went up as my understanding of the practice side of this theories increased.

This is also a great way to get students interested in the trades.


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## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

pvd said:


> That's a pretty sad curriculum. Essentially, the student will be building a bike over two years.
> 
> Then what? They are useless to most industries.


You obviously didn't read the whole article.


> A real trade school training in a real trade could make sense....if we needed trades people in the US. But we don't.


If you believe that, you are really stupid. Most professional tradesmen earn 2 to 3 times the nation average. In Phoenix, A/C technicians easily earn $60k to $100K a year. Pipe welder on the oil fields earn over $100K with the overtime. Oil platform workers earn near or above 6 figures. What part of these trades do you think are easily replaced by unskilled immigrants?


> I think that this tells the whole story:
> 
> "The idea to start the program came from another program that already exists at the college - the guitar repair and building program."


Have you seen how much job satisfaction those people have? There have been 20/20 type stories on those people. They make over $50K, some close to $100K and they LOVE everything about their work.

So, the concept came from another SUCCESSFUL program that has a waiting list to attend and whose graduates LOVE their careers.

Tell me the negative part about that? I missed it....


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## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

pvd said:


> That's a pretty sad curriculum. Essentially, the student will be building a bike over two years.
> 
> Then what? They are useless to most industries.


You obviously didn't read the whole article. The article specifically mentions how the program is compatible with/ beneficial for employers in other industries.


> A real trade school training in a real trade could make sense....if we needed trades people in the US. But we don't.


If you believe that, you are really stupid. When your furnace or A/C breaks, who fixes that? When most people have an electrical issue, who fixes that? When your car's transmission doesn't shift right, who fixes that? Most professional tradesmen earn 2 to 3 times the nation average. In Phoenix, A/C technicians easily earn $60k to $100K a year. Pipe welders on the oil fields earn over $100K with the overtime. Pipe welders in the city earn $40 to $75K. Structural welders earn even more. Oil platform workers earn near or above 6 figures. What part of these trades do you think are easily replaced by unskilled immigrants?


> I think that this tells the whole story:
> 
> "The idea to start the program came from another program that already exists at the college - the guitar repair and building program."


Have you seen how much job satisfaction those people have? There have been 20/20 type stories on those people. They make over $50K, some close to $100K and they LOVE everything about their work.

So, the concept came from another SUCCESSFUL program that has a waiting list to attend and whose graduates LOVE their careers.

Tell me the negative part about that? I missed it....


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## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

dr.welby said:


> It really should be
> 
> BIKE1010 Oxy-Fuel Welding, GMAW, Plasma and Flame Cutting, and Brazing for Bikes 3 cr
> BIKE1015 Commercial HVAC and how to buy a Corvette with cash before you're 30
> ...


In my case, I got the Porsche instead....







That's me last year at Circuit of the Americas in Texas

pvd is right, there is no future working in the trades...


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

A/C in Az said:


> Have you seen how much job satisfaction those people have? There have been 20/20 type stories on those people. They make over $50K, some close to $100K and they LOVE everything about their work.
> 
> So, the concept came from another SUCCESSFUL program that has a waiting list to attend and whose graduates LOVE their careers.
> 
> Tell me the negative part about that? I missed it....


Man, I can count a lot of ex-framebuilders who followed their dream and then their business failed, sending them in to all sorts of bad if not life-threatening mental health situations.

Those who have SUCCEEDED and are LOVING IT are few and far between, and I'm going to guess their success has nothing to do with having an associates degree in bicycle construction.


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## Obi (Oct 16, 2005)

It's less than an hour from the college to QBP, a major player in the industry, who likely needs people with this stuff. It's not like there's a lot of kids interested in the trades currently. Everyone's about tech and in the next 10 years it'll be a huge issue if nobody gets trades back up and running. I'm seeing it currently in the transportation/auto industry. We can't find good people yet I know a lot of laterals and techs who like me earn in the $100k range. In 10-16 years I'll be retiring, where's the up and comers? I see the option as no worse than a Junior College certificate in auto tech, well, except that auto tech is a lot more stringent. As long as there's an industry support backing it up where students can then transition into a position to work through the remainder of practical experience while doing a Bachelor's Degree completion for an alternative marketable education I don't see this as all-bad.

*Disclaimer: Have been and always will be Pro-Trades despite my college educations. Trades are severely missing from where I live now and I miss the variety of skillsets I could hang with.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Obi said:


> Seriously, it's less than an hour from the college to QBP, a major player in the industry, who likely needs people with this stuff.


Unfortunately they don't.


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## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

dr.welby said:


> Man, I can count a lot of ex-framebuilders who followed their dream and then their business failed, sending them in to all sorts of bad if not life-threatening mental health situations.


Many, if not most successful people fail at some point. That is not the fault of the curriculum. That is part of life. We fail more than we succeed. If a person can not handle failure, they should get a paid job working for someone else in a "safe occupation without risks"; they aren't business owner type material. Going into deep depression over a business failure is more proof that they aren't cut out for self employment. Regardless of what their high school counselor may have said, not everyone can be whatever they want. We can't all be astronauts, we can't all be President. Some just don't have the skills, some don't have the mechanical aptitude, some don't have the business sense...



> Those who have SUCCEEDED and are LOVING IT are few and far between, and I'm going to guess their success has nothing to do with having an associates degree in bicycle construction.


That is true with every competitive environment. Not everyone gets to be a winner. Life does not give out "participation trophies"


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

I think most people are missing the point of why colleges offer these courses. There are a lot of young people that get pressured into a college by their parents and they don't have the drive or ambition to become a professional so they enroll in a course like this.
Bicycle building, Adventure tourism, Go cart building. Whatever gets someone to do something other than x-box is a good thing.
All of these diploma courses have limited low paying jobs but can still open the door for other things. If you wanted to hire a apprentice anything would you hire someone with no experience or someone with some college education?


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## Kolchak (May 15, 2017)

pvd said:


> I think both Dr. Welby and Equinox get it.
> 
> I've got a reason for my thinking. I've worked at a major US University for almost 15 years, I've spent nearly all of my career as a machinist, mechanic, and engineer, and I'm also an expert on bicycle design. Looking at a program that is proposed here is just a sad joke. Even worse that it's in Minnesota.
> 
> I loved manufacturing when I started at the end of the eighties. I left that world early in the zeros. Making a living doing that was just waiting to hear about the next round of layoffs or plant closings. I found secure work in academia. Things have gotten far worse since. You'd have to be completely stupid to try to get a job in trades in the US other than contract remodeling, domestic electrical, or domestic plumbing. You'll do far better and work easy as the worst engineer than the best machinist.


I do see your point but I don't know if I agree with this completely. I have been in manufacturing since '95 and while it has had a few slow periods for me it is still going strong. I've been in several factories across the US(PA,CA,NC,MI,NJ,OH) in the past year to perform various duties and all were going strong. I don't think the bike curriculum listed is terrible. It looks like it will teach skills which could be applied in many different industries assuming the student is mechanically inclined, able to adapt, and can pull off a good interview. On top of that they come out of it with the skills to build a bike and possibly start their own business doing it. I am a firm believer that the curriculum someone chooses is not as important as the skills they have acquired when it comes to finding a successful career.


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

rlee said:


> I think most people are missing the point of why colleges offer these courses. There are a lot of young people that get pressured into a college by their parents and they don't have the drive or ambition to become a professional so they enroll in a course like this.
> Bicycle building, Adventure tourism, Go cart building. Whatever gets someone to do something other than x-box is a good thing.
> All of these diploma courses have limited low paying jobs but can still open the door for other things. If you wanted to hire a apprentice anything would you hire someone with no experience or someone with some college education?


ding ding ding, you're pretty close to where my head is at. When I was old enough to be kicked outta my folks house and didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, the conditions set were that I had to go to college or GTFO.

I had no idea what I was doing, just that I was scared of life on the streets. So I went to school. Wrong move. I shoulda crashed on a friend's couch and got hustling. I didn't know.

A lot of people don't belong in college _at a given moment in time_ and would better served to wait until they are ready. My point is that in wanting these types of oddball courses to be *unavailable* will not save anyone from themselves if they are ill prepared.

To some degree you have to let young people make stupid decisions, and hope they learn from their mistakes. I wish I'd had my head on straight, because I went to school for what I am now doing, failed miserably at the time, and it might have been easier/shorter had I been emotionally prepared.

These are things that no one can predict.


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