# How do you stop a Big Dummy?



## broken_cynic (Jul 9, 2008)

Seems like there are very few BD builds that don't have disc brakes. Are any of you actually using those canti posts? So far the only one I've found is Sizzler and his hydraulic Maguras... Even Vik, with several strong defenses of rim brakes vs discs (depending on the usage) has discs on his Dummy.

Would you trust a good set of rim brakes to bring a loaded Dummy (or other similarly sized cargo bike) to a stop in good order?


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## JoeandEaston (May 3, 2004)

No. If you ride a lot your rims will wear out too. I ride with two kids and their stuff. Disks give me confidence that I'll be able to stop anytime I need to. BB7's are cheap and work.


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## farley (Feb 17, 2004)

I'm using V-brakes. I live in a hilly town. I'm heavy, I tend to ride a lot with my 40lb daughter on the bike. I'm happy with V-brakes so far.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Depends on where you ride*



broken_cynic said:


> Seems like there are very few BD builds that don't have disc brakes. Are any of you actually using those canti posts? So far the only one I've found is Sizzler and his hydraulic Maguras... Even Vik, with several strong defenses of rim brakes vs discs (depending on the usage) has discs on his Dummy.
> 
> Would you trust a good set of rim brakes to bring a loaded Dummy (or other similarly sized cargo bike) to a stop in good order?


I don't have a BD, but my city/cargo bike has V-brakes, and I sometimes pile 30 pounds of groceries on it, and live in an area with hills. Stops fine most of the time. I certainly wouldn't push the brakes that hard, or put myself in a situation where I needed crazy braking power, so that is probably the difference. I've taken it down steep techy singletrack when loaded up with 20 pounds of camping gear. I just went slower and easier than normal.

Think about it. 15 years ago, it was common to have rim brakes on tandems, sometimes even without a drag brake pack.

Believe me, if I could put 203mm rotors on my bike, I totally would.


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## KmCowham (Dec 6, 2005)

*Just don't get him going in the first place!*

We've gotten along fine for how long before them, and now people think they can't live without them. Silly!
Tandems with fat asses are fine, have always been fine, with rim brakes. 
Run whatcha brung...


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## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

yup, and we all got along great without cargo bikes, and now people think they can't live without them.  
it's progress, discs work better, end of story.

v's are stopping me, 60 pounds of kid/trailer, on 38/40mm wide tires.
discs still work better, but if you don't want to pony up for discs, don't. 
you lose some power and modulation and ease of maintenance, but unless you've ridden THAT bike with discs, you won't be screaming in panic. you'll adapt to the power you have to work with. (in other words, you won't be missing what you hadn't yet tried)

if my touring frame had disc tabs, I'd have discs on it.


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## anotherbrian (Mar 18, 2005)

I have BB7's on my BD. They weren't much more expensive than V's and are completely reliable/hassle free. 200mm'ish in the rear (203?), 185mm in the front.

I use the rear for most of my braking (especially when loaded; the front fork flexes noticeably when grabbing a lot of it) and drag it on the hills when I want to keep the speed in check.

After I started using the rear brake so much, I found my right hand was getting pretty fatigued from doing all the braking/shifting in town. I swapped to using the left lever for the rear brake, and found it made an amazing difference ... now I can feather the rear brake while keeping the gearing in the sweet spot without any contortions/fatigue.


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## FastFix (Sep 29, 2007)

I have canti's on my BD. I'm looking to upgrade now to discs. It's not that they don't work, they don't work as well as I would like them to. I'm kinda a vintage guy to begin with in that I would rather make something old new again with a refurbishing. However, the BD is just to much mass, has to much momentum for my canti's to give me the confidence I want in braking. I have to ride slower and brake earlier with canti's and I don't like that.


I put them on because I just switched everything over from Xtra build to keep the cost down. It's worked ok, but as I said, I'm looking to upgrade.


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## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

Sounds like you're already aware of my maguras and you may have made your decision but I just wanted to pipe in my opinion. 

V-brakes are obviously the most economical choice and have adequate braking ability for general dummy use but they lack the serious braking power needed for controlled, immediate braking in emergency situations, especially under load. 

Hydraulic rim brakes are much more powerful, which is why they are nicknamed "rim-crushers". They are relatively maintenance free, but it's unlikely your lbs stocks parts and an entire system can end up costing as much as disc brakes. Furthermore, they cause excessive rim wear, which virtually negate their usefulness. One of their only advantages (beside vintage appeal) is that you can use your old rim brake wheelset, which is why I chose to use them.

Disc brakes are the best option, both in terms of braking power and maintenance, and considering one set of disc wheels could outlast several sets of rim-brake wheels, they are easily worth the initial cost. In fact, as soon as I wear through the two sets of XT wheels I have laying around, I will be making the switch.


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## nubcake (Nov 16, 2007)

I will second what most have said here, rim brakes work fine. I have v-brakes on my xtra cycle and have ridden down a 15% grade with about 100lbs on it having to stop at the bottom, I have never wondered if I would be able to stop or not, they are plenty powerful.

That being said, rim brakes are a PITA to adjust with the freeloader bags on, they wear your rims out, especially if you ride in adverse conditions (like most commuters do) and with the bb-5 Avid makes they really are not much cheaper. One last thing, run decent pads if you run rim brakes, I wore out my kool stop salmons and put on some xtr pads I had laying around and they are horrible, they always pick up slivers of metal in the rims and make a nasty grinding noise and now I have to use the front brake coming down the 15% grade leaving my apartment. Once these are toast salmons are going back on for sure.

I went with v-brakes because I already had a wheelset that only took rim brakes laying around so after I polish off the braking surface I plan on getting a wheelset that can take discs and I will almost surely run bb-7's unless I can get a really good deal on some saint's or code's.


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## FrostyStruthers (Jul 10, 2010)

Just read pimpbots post. I wouldn't ride that mess down any type of extended hill. THAT is why we don't use Vs any more. It doesn't matter how long they were used for, today they are practically worthless short of being a novelty... unless your riding doesn't require much in a brake.

When you have to baby your brakes to get the job done, you are riding inadequate gear.


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## bikecop (May 20, 2004)

I've melted tubes on the mtn bike, just me(200#), no cargo.
a friend crashed on a fast downhill on his road bike after blowing the front tire from the same issue.

Discs all the way. my new bike criteria, even for skinny tire road bikes. not that i would ever buy such an impractical bike of course.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

broken_cynic said:


> Seems like there are very few BD builds that don't have disc brakes. Are any of you actually using those canti posts? So far the only one I've found is Sizzler and his hydraulic Maguras... Even Vik, with several strong defenses of rim brakes vs discs (depending on the usage) has discs on his Dummy.
> 
> Would you trust a good set of rim brakes to bring a loaded Dummy (or other similarly sized cargo bike) to a stop in good order?


I'm about to build up a CETMA cargo bike which has a load capacity higher than my BD with rim brakes. It also has a small 20" front wheel and I live in a wet place now. Will I be able to stop my bike = yes. Will my rims wear out crazy fast = no.... 

I can assure you that if Surly didn't believe the BD could be stopped effectively with rim brakes there would be no brake posts on that frame...:nono:


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

bikecop said:


> I've melted tubes on the mtn bike, just me(200#), no cargo.
> a friend crashed on a fast downhill on his road bike after blowing the front tire from the same issue.
> 
> Discs all the way. my new bike criteria, even for skinny tire road bikes. not that i would ever buy such an impractical bike of course.


I've ridden steep mtn roads on heavily loaded touring bikes with rim brakes and never overheated a rim so the tube blew up. There is a technique to braking effectively in the mtns and it is just as necessarily with discs as they will overheat and fail at similar temps to a rim brake overheating a tube.


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## SelfPropelledDevo (Oct 2, 2005)

for the most part, a really good set of V-Brakes is strong enough to deal with most loads that most people use on most of their Dummies

I work on a few XtraCycle converts that use rim brakes.

the reality is that the users are not that rough on their bikes.

my personal experience with rim brakes, on a MTB is that i'd wear out a set between Nov-March, simply because I hate digging out rocks from the brake pads, and I neglect the MTB to that extent during the winter...
usually I end up gouging a line thru the braking surface on the rear wheel.

in the day, I really like the Ceramic braking surfaces that MAVIC offered.

I use Avid Mechs for over 10yrs now, simply bcz I end up using my bikes year round and thru all sorts of conditions.
plus I use the outboard pad adjustment knob to act as a parking brake
simply dial in the knob to lock the brake...

here is something interesting from Wiki on Brake Fade
The reduction of friction termed brake fade is caused when the temperature reaches the "kneepoint" on the temperature-friction curve.* [All brake lining is cured under mechanical pressure following a heating & cooling curve, heating the friction material up to 450°F to "cure" (cross-link) the phenolic resin thermoset polymers: There is no melting of the binding resins, because phenolic resins are thermoset, not thermoplastic]* In this form of fade, the brake pedal feels firm but there is reduced stopping ability. Fade can also be caused by the brake fluid boiling, with attendant release of compressible gases. In this type of fade, the brake pedal feels "spongy". This condition is worsened when there are contaminants in the fluid, such as water, which most types of brake fluids are prone to absorbing to varying degrees. For this reason brake fluid replacement is standard maintenance.

I interpret that to mean that the actual brake pads can overheat, which lead to brake fade. which is just 1 cause to fade.

from personal experience, I have ran the brakes (Avid mechs) to the point where I had felt a change in brake performance, but I've never had the brake actually fail, or far from it.

the one caveat that I've experienced is a repetitive cycle of being really wet, then dragging the brake for a long time, I've had pads actually crumble away... that was a long time ago.

however, still to this day, the wet tends to eat up brake pads.
the rear brake on The Dummy tends to get the most abuse, as the road grime accumulates in this area. I can only imagine the actual dynamics of this situation, as if the rear wheel is actually being showered in wheel spray, further the SnapDeck, VRacks, FreeLoaders, etc... all help to contain the wheelspray.

Using a fender helps, but really the rear wheel is tucked away to the extent that I pretty much just forget about it. It gets abused.

I have thought of a disc brake cover
something like this: http://www.motorcycle-superstore.co...rbon-Fiber-Front-Disc-Guard.aspx?sst=RR|13485

but really its over thinking a problem that is fairly non-existent


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## ericpulvermacher (Nov 1, 2008)

On my Xtracycle

160mm shimano? mech disks on the front. They feel a bit inadequate but I get a fair amount of fork flex so am not going any bigger.

magura HS22 on the rear. I had V brakes but wanted more stopping power and salvation from the long brake cable. The maggies work great but can get packed with ice in the winter. If the X had disk mounts I would have a disk in the back. Been thinking about just welding on some mounts.


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## bikecop (May 20, 2004)

vikb said:


> There is a technique ... it is just as necessarily with discs as they will overheat and fail at similar temps to a rim brake overheating a tube.[/URL]


i disagree. i've braked very hard and long on my avid BB7s, never failed or warped the steel rotors. if i have to baby the brakes with special techniques, that's an indication of inadequate equipment. but i'm happy you never had the rim brake issue, it's not pleasant.


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## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

ericpulvermacher said:


> ...salvation from the long brake cable..


Good point, cable stretch on the rear is terrible compared to hydraulic lines. It's nice to know I'm not the only one still running HS22's!


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## SelfPropelledDevo (Oct 2, 2005)

I never had HS22's but have been around a few sets, great brakes.

as to "Cable Stretch"... I'm not too sure about this.
I go round and round with people about this, and quick to point out a few variables.

that is, the cables are amazingly strong.

so what gives?

cable housing seating into the cable housing end caps.
and those ends caps seating into cable bosses on the frame.

so when you cut new cable housing, it really helps to use a grinder to square off the housing, and try as you may to get a nice even seating into the cable housing ends.

plastic cable housing end caps obviously conform to the cable housing
as if setting a "seating action", or like a bite of sorts

the metal cable housing end caps don't bend to the housing.

when you set up your bike, stop and think about how things are going to "seat"
all those tiny distances that seat into each other, make up what I believe has been termed as "stretch"

the cable does not stretch, rather the cable housing seats, resulting in adjustments at the barrel adjusters, or re-anchoring the cables.


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## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

SelfPropelledDevo said:


> when you set up your bike, stop and think about how things are going to "seat"
> all those tiny distances that seat into each other, make up what I believe has been termed as "stretch"


That's another really good point, I never thought about uneven ends creating flex but it would obviously contribute to the problem. While running V's, I brought up the issue with a few local mechanics. The consensus was to run drailleur housing instead of brake housing as it's stiffer and less likely to deform. I was warned there exists a small chance of catestrophic housing failure  but I found it decreased the stretch, improved braking and never failed. Anyone else tried this?


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## SelfPropelledDevo (Oct 2, 2005)

Sizzler said:


> That's another really good point, I never thought about uneven ends creating flex but it would obviously contribute to the problem. While running V's, I brought up the issue with a few local mechanics. The consensus was to run drailleur housing instead of brake housing as it's stiffer and less likely to deform. I was warned there exists a small chance of catestrophic housing failure  but I found it decreased the stretch, improved braking and never failed. Anyone else tried this?


its not really the flex, from uneven cable housing ends, as much as those uneven ends ultimately crush to some point where the actual housing is now "seated" into the cable housing end.

derailleur housing has metal strands that run the length of the housing.
brake cable housing has the metal spiraling around the housing.

brake cable housing is much stronger than derailleur housing, its non-compressible

these days I'm working as a bike wrench, and I'm always showing people the dangers of a worn cable housing.

so if you look at a bike, the housing where it rubs against something, it will eventually wear away the outer plastic casing of the housing, eventually exposing the metal strands, which eventually start to rust, which now is weak, and its just a matter of time before those rusted strands start to collapse. Luckily this is the scenario for derailleurs.
its a common cause when suddenly one day, your shifting just keeps going out of adjustment for no real reason.

things don't simply go out of adjustment for no reason. something is moving. it may be a cable is starting to fray, a cable housing is starting to collapse, etc...
or once upon a time, a buddy and i were riding, his bike suddenly started ghost shifting when he put power to the cranks, he stood up to start climbing and the bike shifted all over the place, like it was actually shifting...
the down tube had separated from the BB shell, and the frame was flexing, causing the cables to shift the derailleur every time the frame flexed...

I'd opt for brake cable housing for braking duties


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## SelfPropelledDevo (Oct 2, 2005)

the thing with hydraulic lines, is that in order to be 100% sealed and not leak, or let air in, all the ends are perfectly seated.

which is typically not the case on a new build with cables.

if every mechanic paid super close attention to ensuring that the housing and housing cable ends were 100% seated, a lot of the notion of "cable stretch" would fade away.

its that old practice of setting up the brakes, then giving them a solid hard squeeze a bunch of times, and "stretching" the cables, then re-adjusting them. what that really has done is seated the housing and the ends.

you can do the same with shifters. simply don't pedal, and shift the shifters up, pulling on the derailleurs. this too will help seat the housing. then re-adjust as needed.


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## broken_cynic (Jul 9, 2008)

Sizzler said:


> Sounds like you're already aware of my maguras and you may have made your decision but I just wanted to pipe in my opinion. ...


I have purchased brakes, but I haven't had my wheels built up yet, so the decision isn't final and I'm glad to hear everyone's input. I said rim brakes and everyone assumed I meant V-brakes, which is reasonable, but the brakes I actually had in mind (and now in hand) were Paul Neo-Retro high-leverage cantis. (Which may set off a whole 'nother of 'you gotta get discs!' And as contrary as that sounds, I am listening.)

On the other hand, two things have changed since the OP and I may not be building a Dummy at all. First is the fact that I was just a little bit slow making up my mind and the bigger frames were the first to become unavailable in the blow-out-last-years-frames sale. I have one on backorder, but it sounds like they may not be able to honor the price at which I ordered it. The second thing was the announcement of the TerraCycle Cargo Monster immediately after I picked up a used Catrike Road. It wouldn't have the same style as a Dummy, but... three wheels + XtraCycle = brilliant. (And the Road already has disc brakes. :thumbsup: )


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

iI did this for my tandem but I don't see why not you can adapt it for the Dummy.









Dual controls front and rear.









The system work amazing in fact will be to dangerous for a single bike but on a loaded tandem you can not flip it no matter how hard you brake.


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## gumby_kevbo (Dec 24, 2011)

On a single on dry pavement, you will lift the rear wheel before the front wheel skids. On a tandem you will skid the front wheel before the rear lifts. Thus stopping distance on a tandem or short cargo bike can be improved by using both brakes, while on a solo the back brake is mainly a backup, or for low traction surfaces.


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## dm1333 (Jun 27, 2010)

I've only been riding my Xtracycle for three weeks but it is built up with BB7s and 203 mm rotors front and rear. They're a great brake, especially for the price, easy to set up and maintain. I've also got them on my Volae Century and have been using them in wet winters for a couple of years.


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## sfuller (Jan 14, 2007)

SelfPropelledDevo said:


> so when you cut new cable housing, it really helps to use a grinder to square off the housing, and try as you may to get a nice even seating into the cable housing ends.


Old thread but figured I'd chime in on this, since others have. I do most of my work on my bikes these days, thus I'm not under the gun to maximize some time/profit curve. I cut all of my brake cable ends off square with a dremel, then open up the liner with a small nail. Seems to have worked fairly well for me.

I have disc brakes on all of my bikes but two now (single speed road and single speed cross bikes). I've gotten so used to the modulation and easy adjustment on avid mechanicals, that I'm a bit spoiled. I have one MTB with hydros, but I can't say that I like them better than any of my BB7 equipped bikes. The dummy has 203mm rotors and BB7s.


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