# Do you support skidding on trails?



## Monk_Knight (Aug 1, 2008)

Okay, kinda silly question I know. I'm doing a paper for my Comp 250 class about mountain bikes and wilderness areas and one of the areas of discussion is trail erosion and specifically, the claim that mountain bikes cause large amounts of trail erosion due to riders skidding the corners. 

However, my teacher is quite tough on requiring research and statistics to back up statements... thus I cannot just say that it is considered bad form to skid the corners. Hence the poll.

Thanks! :thumbsup: 


Note -- I'm not talking about accidental skids, emergency skids if you aren't going to make a corner, drifts, etc, etc. I'm talking about approaching a corner or switchback and deliberately locking the rear brake and skidding the rear end around.


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## senna (May 10, 2006)

No skidding :nono: 

leave no trace :thumbsup:


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## AlexJK (May 2, 2009)

skidding tears the trail up, increases your stopping distances by a large margin, and makes your bike that much harder to control. Yes, we will all skid a few times on accident, but deliberatly locking either wheel is irresponsible... eventually you build up an ability to control your brakes to the limit when taken by surprise (you won't just grab a handfull of brake and skid in a sudden emergency)

Even in an emergency, skidding is BAD!!!

Bottom line: Don't be a skidiot.


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## Monk_Knight (Aug 1, 2008)

> skidding tears the trail up, increases your stopping distances by a large margin, and makes your bike that much harder to control. Yes, we will all skid a few times on accident, but deliberatly locking either wheel is irresponsible... eventually you build up an ability to control your brakes to the limit when taken by surprise (you won't just grab a handfull of brake and skid in a sudden emergency)
> 
> Even in an emergency, skidding is BAD!!!
> 
> Bottom line: Don't be a skidiot.


Agreed. What I meant by emergency skid wasn't locking up the brakes to stop, but rather I have found myself in the rare situation of hitting an unfamiliar corner at speed that turns out to be much sharper then it looks (generally on DH trails) and I am going to blow off the trail. In these cases, a very tiny tap of the rear brake can bring the rear wheel around that extra two degrees that's necessary to make the corner.


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## PepperJester (Jan 2, 2003)

*Bikes don't cause erosion, water does.*

Skidding loosens the top layer of the compacted trail tread. The loose soil can then be carried down trail by water after the next rail fall. Water caused erosion. Bike, hiking, horses and other trail uses just assist it by braking up the hardened trail tread.

Anywho, I try my best not to skid.


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## onefinger (Jan 1, 2007)

BAD WORD NO!:madmax: :madman: :madmax: :madman: :madmax:


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## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

*skidding adds to erosion.*

Skidding is not good for a trail. Whether it is bad or not may depend on who owns the trail. Public lands = no skidding. Private land on a closed course, follow the land owners lead.


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## fastmtnbiker33w (Feb 3, 2004)

You should probably link this on a more popular forum topic like "passion". Or come up with a couple of polls. Ask the racers on the racing forum if it's ok to skid on a race course.

I've yet to see a race course that didn't get skidded to death. If you did the XC nationals this summer, you couldn't help but notice it. Good trails are either designed so skidding isn't necessary or so they can handle the skidding (rock armoring). Sol Vista had some good trail sections, but others were plain old crap. Sometimes it's quicker to get around a turn when you let the rear wheel loose. 

Your question is very broad. You should create a poll with many questions related to skidding. There should be a website somewhere that can host your multi-question poll. Then you can link it from mtbr, blogs, and mtb race coverage sites. Most websites would be very happy to link your poll especially if it is research based.

I noticed your class is a 200 level course. You probably should find a grad student who has taken a research methods course to help you develop the poll. There are ways to "lead" people to certain answers which invalidate polls. Designing a good poll is almost an art form. Deriving the statistics correctly is pure science. I find polls quite interesting.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

_*Ride it, don't slide it.*_

We have to lug pavers (20+ each!) to reinforce places where the _illiterati_  cannot learn not to skid. Otherwise we end up with foot deep groves on a switchback! Ugh.

Learn to ride correctly. As stated above, it increases your stopping distance and tears up trails. I ride a fixed gear mountain bike and do not understand the need to skid.......  :skep:


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## Monk_Knight (Aug 1, 2008)

> You should probably link this on a more popular forum topic like "passion". Or come up with a couple of polls. Ask the racers on the racing forum if it's ok to skid on a race course.
> 
> I've yet to see a race course that didn't get skidded to death. If you did the XC nationals this summer, you couldn't help but notice it. Good trails are either designed so skidding isn't necessary or so they can handle the skidding (rock armoring). Sol Vista had some good trail sections, but others were plain old crap. Sometimes it's quicker to get around a turn when you let the rear wheel loose.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the imput. You are correct... and I do realize that perhaps the poll is a tad bit "leading" as you said simply because I posted it in the Trail Building and Advocacy forum... but it also seemed like the best place.

While all your suggestions are fantastic (and I will certainly keep them in mind for future projects... especially the one about linking to websites), this particular poll is a rather small part of the overall project and serves only to show that skidding is a generally discouraged activity in the mountain biking community. I could have also, for example, cited a magazine article (I believe MBA has a few) in which the author takes a vocal stance against skidding, but it seemed like a quick poll of the community would prove the point better.

As for the race issue... it's not really relevant to my particular topic (that mountain bikes should be allowed in Wilderness Areas). A race course might get skidded to death, but the organizers generally will be out there the next week repairing the damage. Or perhaps the course is on privately owned land or trails built especially for bikes. For the purposes of my paper, I'm focusing on public, multi-use trails.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

skid it to win it!!! :thumbsup:
especially w/ the front tire


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

I skid on the gravel road that my trails dump out onto after I come flying out of the woods...skid responsibly!


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Skidding is like giving erosion HGH.


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## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

I skid. It seems to me that some kinds of soil can support it and others can't. Using a little tap of brake or unweighting the rear to make it rotate is fun, and as as far as I can tell does little to no damage. Besides, they are biking trails and we maintain them. I know I'll get flamed for saying so, but I also know I'm not the only one.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

you should find environmental impact studies about water sediment and its impact on wildlife.. and then link skidding to increased sediment. a bunch of guys on the internet saying skidding is bad isnt much good either 

i dont think its the holocaust like some people do.. but it does make annoying braking bumps which someone has to come in and fill or else the trail goes to hell in terms of riding conditions. seems like 9/10 places i ride it just makes the trail less fun to ride with really no other impact.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Actually this forum is probably the best place to ask if skidding damages trails. Out on the trails there are a lot of riders and few builders. Riders who don't build or maintain trails aren't likely to know what causes trail damage and what doesn't unless they have heard or read it somewhere. It's pointless to ask the average car driver what causes damage to roads.

epic's answer kind of supports my theory. Lots of people I ride with have the same attitude. They look at the little bit of dirt they move with a skid and say "How bad can that be?" Multiply that by the thousands of people who ride the trail in a year and when I go to fix the trail, I'm moving truckloads of dirt to put things back the way they were.

epic, I meant only minor flame. I'm sure on some trails a little cutty or skid does no serious damage especially if it was specifically designed for that type of riding. 

A well built DH trail should expect sliding. A well built XC trail should prevent sliding.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

it certainly displaces dirt.. but if that dirt is no where near a river and simply settles to the side, or settles slightly downhill when it rains, theres no "damage", environmentally, like there is in areas where it floods into lakes and kills fish. ruins the trail for sure either way.. but your average non cyclist doesnt really care if it sucks to hit brake bumps. 

just saying, if his teacher is tough on facts and statistics, ive never had a college class that allowed nearly anything off the internet.


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## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

Al Gore hadn't gotten around to the internet when I was in College, so no comment on that. As far as the skidding goes though, I think a lot of this comes from back in the day when we were riding on **** fallline trails. In those days it really did make a difference. I just think it's a little much to try and apply a one-size fits all rule from 20 years ago to today's riding.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

It really doesn't matter what type of soil it is, skidding displaces soil. If you skid on soil, you're going to displace it. Water will then pick up that sediment load and carry it. You'd be surprised how far off the trail it can go. On steep slopes where the water builds up speed as it flows downhill, that can be quite far. It's true that some instances it won't go terribly far, like when the terrain is pretty flat. But, such an environment is unlikely to support the speeds necessary for a skid, anyway. Skids happen when you're going fast, so they're going to be more likely to occur in places with steeper slopes, and the effects of doing so in those places will be more significant than those on flat terrain.

Absolutely, most trails are not built to handle skidding in the corners. On some occasions, you might find a trail designed to handle it, but unless you ride those trails exclusively, riders ought to learn how to ride a trail without skidding.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

The OP was definitely a loaded question even with the qualifications.

The North Shore of Vancouver is almost all fall line trails as are most trails here on Vancouver Island. They were built back in the day and rather than scrapping them and starting over, an almost impossible task, they have been armored and patched and braided and repaired. These trails are still at risk of regular erosion from the rain (10" in the last 4 days) and accelerated erosion from the heavy traffic they get.

In the same area we have trails built to proper standards in bike parks (Whistler & Mt. Washington as well as a multitude of local community parks) that are designed to take the abuse that the "general public" inflicts. Can you skid on these trails? Sure, the owners expect it and are prepared to repair the damage, they aren't in environmentally sensitive areas. Even so, you'll see signs requesting that you refrain from skidding but that's mostly to save the owners money.

It would seem to me that you WON'T do harm by not skidding and you MAY do harm by skidding. DON'T skid, and you can sleep well at night knowing that you have saved the world, or at least saved some millionaire hundreds of dollars.



Nate: I'm not surprised how far water can carry dirt. I've seen it carry big excavators 5 miles. That was 14" of rain in one day and the excavators were IN the river below the dam so they got what they deserved.


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## ajd245246 (Sep 1, 2008)

*Skidding in different conditions*

Where I live on the northeast coast the weather is the biggest variable in trail conditions. When it's humid the dirt is deffinitely more loose and more prone to skidding damage. But in the middle of the summer when the ground is baked skidding doesn't really do much. Also, I don't ride on very crowded trails because only a handful of people even know about them. That being said, if you skid around a corner it's not going to erode the trail. Now on a high traffic trail, i think the answer would be yes, if there is constant skidding the trail will deffinitely deteriorate.


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## 23mjm (Oct 22, 2005)

Never been a big fan of the skid---even before I knew it was bad for trails. It is hard to explain, but skidding mess with the flow of riding. If I skid it seams to screw with my rhythm. I came to Mountain Biking from Road Racing Motorcycles (on the track not the street) Never used the rear brake much there, so didn't use it much on the MTB. I have had many a friend wonder how I can use the front brake so hard and not go flying over the bars--weight transfer. I notice out on the trail that noobs seam to skid the most. I have friends that have gotten in to MTB-in and I talk to them about skidding--try to reframe. I'll also talk to people I see out on the trails skidding all over the place. Some are OK others take exception. 

When ride at Mammoth Mountain I am a little less careful about not skidding.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Trail Ninja said:


> The OP was definitely a loaded question even with the qualifications.
> 
> The North Shore of Vancouver is almost all fall line trails as are most trails here on Vancouver Island. They were built back in the day and rather than scrapping them and starting over, an almost impossible task, they have been armored and patched and braided and repaired. These trails are still at risk of regular erosion from the rain (10" in the last 4 days) and accelerated erosion from the heavy traffic they get.
> 
> ...


Spending most of my time growing up in the midwest where most trails are old and not designed with bikes in mind, and are also fall-line, skidding is a problem in any condition. The trails suffer less when the soil is baked, but skidding still displaces and loosens it (skidding does not 'erode' a trail. Water erodes. skidding simply loosens the soil so it can be eroded later by water). Difference is, nobody's really out there armoring the trails keeping skidding bikes in mind. Where I live now (and a couple of other places I've lived in the past), the deeper soil horizons are sandy. Skidding moves a LOT of sand. Where I live now, our hills are all sand, and you can dig hundreds of feet and find nothing but sand. There's very little rock, and what rock you find is poorly cemented and crumbles. So it doesn't matter, skidding is BAD here.

But on the plus side, a little rain holds the trails together better. There's very little mud to be concerned with.


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

Skidding just demonstrates poor bike control. If you aren't riding in control then skidding is a bailout - a last resort move to avoid flying off the trail or a crash. If you can't scrub speed gently prior to an abrupt trail change then you aren't looking ahead or you're riding out of control. Skidding is NOT a valuable riding technique you need to learn, anyone can grab a handful of brake. A good bike handler can adjust speed on the fly without skidding - learn it, and help save the trails. There is no question that skidding damages trails.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

*Field research:*

I just went out and built a corner that will be almost impossible NOT to skid on. Nice long straight downhill for 200 feet. Overhanging branch that obscures the view of the corner but you can see there IS a corner. Big wide 180 degree off-camber turn that should be a berm by anyone's standards. Then a big warning sign for the narrow entrance to the trees and a drop.

People are going to drift and panic skid on this corner. (Oh, RELAX! There's a huge clear bail-out.) I'm curious to see how long it takes to build a berm using bike tires. I've seen them happen over time but that's usually with the berm already in existence. They just get higher and looser.

Next time I'm out, I'll get a "before" picture.


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

23mjm said:


> Never been a big fan of the skid...I notice out on the trail that noobs seam to skid the most...


Pretty much my sentiments also. Learn to use the front brake and slow before the corner, then roll through without the brakes: more control. You'll find you can take corners faster too.

I recall a tip on "control" in "MB Action" many years ago that at the time I didn't understand because I hadn't used the technique before. 
It had to do with re-aligning your direction of travel when you weren't going to make the corner because the radius was smaller than you were able to turn. 
In the article they described a quick tap of the rear break bringing on a short break in traction (skid.) 
The resulting brief skid to the outside would re-orient the direction of travel to the inside and voilla, you make the corner.
Earlier posters here have described this technique already. 
I just wanted to mention that it had been offered as a tip in one of the more prestigious MB rags, albeit along time ago. 
After reading the article I experimented with the technique and found it worked quite well, if in fact you needed to use it.
Hardly ever use it now, but the technique is still in my bag of tricks should I need it.

Most all skids I see are at the entrance to a corner, where speed is excessive and needs to be burned off to make the corner. Consequently, over time, those corners usually become death traps with a central rut that seems to suck you in no matter how you ride. Of all corners, switch-backs seem to get it the worst. Tight switch-backs more so.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

With the heavy rains we've had lately, all the loose soil and rocks up to about 1" diameter are all washed down the trail to the bottom, often there will be big fans of alluvial deposit at the bottom. _Anything_ that loosens the soil up makes that worse.

Have you checked out IMBA's resource page, they have actual referenced and peer reviewed data that you could use as research material.

http://www.imba.com/resources/science/index.html

As Jackie Stewart tells people in his driving school, it doesn't matter how fast you enter a corner, it's how fast you exit that counts. That absolutely applies on a bike where momentum is your friend. So don't overcook the corner, ride smoother and quicker, not faster.


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## 23mjm (Oct 22, 2005)

rockyuphill said:


> As Jackie Stewart tells people in his driving school, it doesn't matter how fast you enter a corner, it's how fast you exit that counts. That absolutely applies on a bike where momentum is your friend. So don't overcook the corner, ride smoother and quicker, not faster.


Boy ain't that the truth, I learned that quick Road Racing Motorcycles, No worse feeling that running up on the inside of someone going into a corner then having them promptly pass you back on exit, because I was still slowing down and they were on the gas. Some of the fastest laps actually feel slow.


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## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

Sometimes skidding is faster. Can you embed Youtube here?


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## 23mjm (Oct 22, 2005)

epic said:


> Sometimes skidding is faster. Can you embed Youtube here?


LOL I'll remember that the next time I have a WRC Rally car on singletrack:thumbsup:

I miss WRC wish Speed Channel was still showing it


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## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

23mjm said:


> LOL I'll remember that the next time I have a WRC Rally car on singletrack:thumbsup:
> 
> I miss WRC wish Speed Channel was still showing it


rockyuphill brought in the cars. Anyway, I couldn't resist the WRC footage.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

There's a difference between drifting and skidding...


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Monk_Knight said:


> Okay, kinda silly question I know. I'm doing a paper for my Comp 250 class about mountain bikes and wilderness areas and one of the areas of discussion is trail erosion and specifically, the claim that mountain bikes cause large amounts of trail erosion due to riders skidding the corners.
> 
> However, my teacher is quite tough on requiring research and statistics to back up statements... thus I cannot just say that it is considered bad form to skid the corners. Hence the poll.
> 
> ...


Unless you are paying to have your mess cleaned up (like a DH park), don't skid if you can help it. Of course, some parts are so torn up (largely from others skidding) that you can't really help it, but in my book it is just crappy form and not nearly as useful as some people think. I know in some competitive situations it can pay off, but so does dropping your gel wrappers, and I hope you don't do that on your normal rides.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

fishbum said:


> Skidding just demonstrates poor bike control. If you aren't riding in control then skidding is a bailout - a last resort move to avoid flying off the trail or a crash. If you can't scrub speed gently prior to an abrupt trail change then you aren't looking ahead or you're riding out of control. Skidding is NOT a valuable riding technique you need to learn, anyone can grab a handful of brake. A good bike handler can adjust speed on the fly without skidding - learn it, and help save the trails. There is no question that skidding damages trails.


X2.
Skidding is annoying, especially on trails that aren't that steep, it's just poor bike control.


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## yetipop (Jul 27, 2009)

*Smells like age old politics*

I don't skid, with the price of cross-country tires these days who would want to prematurely send yourself to the bike store for another $50 tire. Trails do get brake-bumped out after a cross country race but nothing even comes close to the damage a horse makes in muddy trail conditions. And the politics part of the equation is that horses are LEGAL in Wilderness and bicycles are not. It's a twenty year old argument, ask any old-timer from Marin county CA who really controls the politics of mtb trail access...rich equestrians.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

yetipop said:


> I don't skid, with the price of cross-country tires these days who would want to prematurely send yourself to the bike store for another $50 tire. Trails do get brake-bumped out after a cross country race but nothing even comes close to the damage a horse makes in muddy trail conditions. And the politics part of the equation is that horses are LEGAL in Wilderness and bicycles are not. It's a twenty year old argument, ask any old-timer from Marin county CA who really controls the politics of mtb trail access...rich equestrians.


What about trails that get no, zilch, zero horse traffic, and almost no hikers, (I have never seen one or boot tracks)? Where I live in San Luis Obispo, we have trails that get nothing but MTB traffic and are all rutted and brake bumped. We fix them. How do you explain that?

Not all the world, or even CA, for that matter, is Marin county. We have horses in some areas here, but no conflicts; the equestrians fund our trail building by writing for grants and pass the money on to us, i.e., we do *no* fund raising, yet get a couple thou a month in out account. :thumbsup:


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## yetipop (Jul 27, 2009)

*Let me explain*



slocaus said:


> What about trails that get no, zilch, zero horse traffic, and almost no hikers, (I have never seen one or boot tracks)? Where I live in San Luis Obispo, we have trails that get nothing but MTB traffic and are all rutted and brake bumped. We fix them. How do you explain that?
> 
> Not all the world, or even CA, for that matter, is Marin county. We have horses in some areas here, but no conflicts; the equestrians fund our trail building by writing for grants and pass the money on to us, i.e., we do *no* fund raising, yet get a couple thou a month in out account. :thumbsup:


This is how I explain; you have trails that do not receive any horse traffic, so there is no horse hoof damage to the trails you mention. You probably have not seen hiking boot tracks because hikers weigh thousands of pounds less than a horse. Thankyou for fixing the trails where you ride, I fix the trails where I ride. That's how I explain that. 
Now, why is LEGAL for horses to ride in wilderness areas and bicycles that weigh tons less ridden by cyclists like myself that do not skid are not allowed by LAW to ride in wilderness areas.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

Occasional skids are part of riding. Weather decelerating or accelerating. Personally I lose traction more while climbing than on the downhill.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

6bobby9 said:


> Occasional skids are part of riding. *Weather decelerating or accelerating*. Personally I lose traction more while climbing than on the downhill.


Does that mean whenever it is changing into fall or spring you skid more :skep:
-and which one is 'accelerating'?
Is this a global warming thing?


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## clutch_08 (May 5, 2009)

lol^^^^


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## hankthespacecowboy (Jun 10, 2004)

I build trails and love drifty turns... 

Yeah, locking up your brakes before a turn and creating huge braking bumps is pretty goober-tastic riding. But fast, drifty turns or tight, fast switchbacks that require swinging the the rear end around are some of my favorite trail features.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

hankthespacecowboy said:


> I build trails and love drifty turns...
> 
> Yeah, locking up your brakes before a turn and creating huge braking bumps is pretty goober-tastic riding. But fast, drifty turns or tight, fast switchbacks that require swinging the the rear end around are some of my favorite trail features.


As long as you're doing it on trails you built, I don't see a problem.


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## BDSmith (Nov 16, 2009)

I was just at one of the local greenways today. Saw a young man riding with no helmet and dog off the leash (both against the rules). No biggie, I wear my helmet but these greenways aren't exactly rough or anything. The dog was well behaved, seemed to be following him pretty well. 

We were going opposite directions, and I started seeing skid marks going the way he was going. Like 5 or 6 in a mile range, in the middle of the track none the less. I didn't think that was necessary at all. First thing I thought of was this thread though.:thumbsup:


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## AlliKat (Apr 28, 2006)

I don't intentionally skid. I don't ride on muddy trails. But, Where you are riding has a lot to do with the impact of skidding. Our local trail system sees tons of traffic from bikes and hikers/runners. It is particularly important not to skid as it gives fuels any argument against bikes.

We have an infrequently traveled area a little further south; the Owyhees. If I were in the owyhees and came up on a sharp turn, I would be more inclined to blip the back brake and swing the tire around. 

In some areas we have had wilderness proposals. In these areas, I am particularly careful about anything that will shed bikes in a bad light.


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## bts420 (Jun 28, 2009)

If I couldn't drift turns going downhill or even just fast, Im not sure if I would mtn bike. I love to get my wheels sideways!!! There's nothing like the prefect brake slide inches from a tree. :thumbsup:


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## oldskoolbiker (Jun 2, 2005)

I picked don't skid, but during races I'll do whatever is faster. I also may find myself drifting through corners etc in bike parks where I'm paying $35-$40 to ride. But in general I avoid skidding.


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## hankthespacecowboy (Jun 10, 2004)

bts420 said:


> If I couldn't drift turns going downhill or even just fast, Im not sure if I would mtn bike. I love to get my wheels sideways!!! There's nothing like the prefect brake slide inches from a tree. :thumbsup:


Heck to the Yes! Nothing gives me a stupid grin like that feeling!


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## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

23mjm said:


> Boy ain't that the truth, I learned that quick Road Racing Motorcycles, No worse feeling that running up on the inside of someone going into a corner then having them promptly pass you back on exit, because I was still slowing down and they were on the gas. Some of the fastest laps actually feel slow.


so your saying cornerspeed doesn't matter? thats gonna be a big relief to nicky hayden who hasnt been able to adapt to the 250 style riding on the 800s.


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## bpressnall (Aug 25, 2006)

I see pictures in bike mags of folks skidding around corners, and looking at downhill race videos, the racers seem to be throwing a lot of dirt especially on those tight technical turns. Of coarse in ski racing, anytime you skid you dump speed- it's better to carve than skid. I'm not totally sure about the physics of bike turns, maybe if the front wheel rolls and the back tire slides you can carry the most speed around those tight ones. Whatever's the cool way the pro's do it is what many bikers will want to do. I usually just bury some rock or as last resort logs in the trail where bikers tend to skid and that seems to work. Just under the surface and they'll hardly know the difference. But you'll notice. Oh yeah, and compared to horses, bikes aren't even worth mentioning.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

bpressnall said:


> Oh yeah, and compared to horses, bikes aren't even worth mentioning.


I'd pay money to see a horse skid around a corner on a MTB downhill course.


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## bpressnall (Aug 25, 2006)

Ha, yeah, the problem with livestock is soil displacement. An average horse weighs about 1,100 lbs plus sadlle, rider etc. and you have 1300+ lbs distributed between 2 shoes at any time, so that's about 650 lbs. of pressure per each narrow piece of metal. This is a contstant action wether on a corner or not. Downhill bikes are about 40 lbs + rider with rubber wheels rolling on the ground, except of coarse when they skid. And bikes can operate on a much narrower tread, also allowing for a less impactive trail than livestock require. Where I live, the difference between horse and bike impacts can be easily seen, as there are horse trails and bike trails on the same soil types (mostly sandy or silty) and the difference is profound. The bike trails do develope skid ruts in places, but the problem can generally be mitigated. With horses, soil displacement is so widespread that dishing out of the trail is the norm.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

bpressnall said:


> Ha, yeah, the problem with livestock is soil displacement. *An average horse weighs about 1,100 lbs plus sadlle, rider etc. and you have 1300+ lbs distributed between 2 shoes at any time, so that's about 650 lbs. of pressure per each narrow piece of metal. This is a contstant action wether on a corner or not. Downhill bikes are about 40 lbs + rider with rubber wheels rolling on the ground,* except of coarse when they skid. And bikes can operate on a much narrower tread, also allowing for a less impactive trail than livestock require. Where I live, the difference between horse and bike impacts can be easily seen, as there are horse trails and bike trails on the same soil types (mostly sandy or silty) and the difference is profound. The bike trails do develope skid ruts in places, but the problem can generally be mitigated. With horses, soil displacement is so widespread that dishing out of the trail is the norm.


nice!:thumbsup: 
while I respect your argument, it's still flawed.
You forgot actions of the hooves, the terrain, soil, conditions etc...
There are plenty of horses walking w/ nary a track on another trail - just sayin'


To Add:
Anti-horse sentiment cant be brought into an argument w/ land management w/out solid arguments - not strawmen.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

I don't think there's any argument. There's no question that horses have more impact on similar trail surfaces. I just wanted to see a horse going so fast around a bermed corner that his ass end slid out from under him. As long as he didn't get hurt of course.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

bpressnall said:


> I see pictures in bike mags of folks skidding around corners, and looking at downhill race videos, the racers seem to be throwing a lot of dirt especially on those tight technical turns. Of coarse in ski racing, anytime you skid you dump speed- it's better to carve than skid.


I work with a guy who has some national championships in downhill racing. He says when you see the guys skidding, they are loosing speed and recovering from a mistake. The fastest perfect run will not have skidding.

The other thing is race courses and places like Whistler the trails are designed for that kind of riding and part of the money you pay to play goes to construction and maintenance. On the regular trails that we build and maintain, skidding causes damage.

We have one popular area that we finally had to lay pavers on one corner to keep it from getting blown out every month. That took four people over four hours! That was 16 man hours that did not get to build new trail or do other water control work. Estimates are that *ONE* corner had around 200 hours of maintenance over 5 years!


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## bpressnall (Aug 25, 2006)

Maybe in barrel racing. I know there are some trails used by horses that don't show impacts, but on trails that are vulnerable, horses tend to have the most impact. There are land management studies that been done (some questionable and biased in favor of bikes) that show this to be the case. I must emphsize that I am not anti-horse, I just want to even the playing field, as I feel that bikes often get the bad rap. Horses are allowed on virtually all trails on Federal lands while bikes are banned from many areas. The decisions to ban bikes on trails are based on tradition, politics, economics, real or percieved danger, and the definition of "primitive forms of transportation". These are all valid considerations, but the decision is not based on comparative resource impacts.


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## spicewookie (Jun 3, 2008)

since we've mutated to horse talk, we've successfully used the following arguments to restrict horses on the NEW trail that our MTB club has built in a historically horse trail park:

1) horse hay in poop introduces non-native plant species
2) poop on trails causes widening as hikers and bikers tend to go around to avoid a splatter

and we've gotten a graduated trail closure/opening schedule allowing hikers/bikers first as the trail dries, and then finally horses.

i despise the hoof damage on wet trails, but have successfully used the poop angle to accomplish my goals.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

moojo said:


> I have successfully used the poop angle to accomplish my goals.


:lol:

That's going on a T-shirt.


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## spicewookie (Jun 3, 2008)

Trail Ninja said:


> :lol:
> 
> That's going on a T-shirt.


nicely done. **** happens and i use it to my advantage.


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## addctd2adrnlne (Jul 23, 2005)

Trail Ninja said:


> I'd pay money to see a horse skid around a corner on a MTB downhill course.


If you want to see a horse skid, check out some barrel racing videos. Not a full on skid, but pretty darn close with some of the top riders/horses.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

addctd2adrnlne said:


> If you want to see a horse skid, check out some barrel racing videos. Not a full on skid, but pretty darn close with some of the top riders/horses.


... & if you want to see soil displacement, watch the cutting horses.


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## nogod (May 30, 2009)

I suppose after attacking horses the next victim will be mules. Then after mules then jack asses. Which then leads to lamas, then after alpacas and goats, we move onto those pesky human hikers. 

Ever notice how big elk and moose are? Outside of the near city dweller trail systems, most trails are used mostly by animals not humans. And many trails were cut by horses to start with. Not to mention most public trails are meant to be used by the public in general. 

Im a big fan of ridding bicycles on dirt trails. But I also hike a lot too. I also live in horseville, There are trails here that are pretty old. They have not eroded away from horse use. But ive seen trails used mostly by mtb's that have eroded away in a few years. A near hundred year old trail still usable as opposed to a 3 year old trail that isnt. One used primarily for equestrian use, the other bikes.

Sure a horse can screw up your trail. But is it screwed for just you or for the majority of the users?


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

.... calm down. I've never seen barrel racing or calf roping on my mtb trails.


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## nogod (May 30, 2009)

Trail Ninja said:


> .... calm down. I've never seen barrel racing or calf roping on my mtb trails.


Then you obviously havent been to sw new mexico. bwhahahaha


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Nope.... maybe someday. It would be nice to get out of the rain.


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