# e-bike tech



## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

Other than efficiencies to be gained with batteries, where do you see the technology going over the next few years?


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

I'd say weight loss Sharp Things. Although I don't really notice the weight of the Levo too much while riding, they still are a heavy beast. 
Meaning, tech advances in the motor systems to save weight


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Definitely weight; the magnets and copper make that an interesting consideration. Some of the lighter motors weigh 3 or so pounds; combine that with a three pound battery in a mid-drive and the entire e-MTB could be less than 30 pounds. Seems as though someone is working with Sodium batteries that show promise. Also, a Vivax-type (seattube mounted motor with a pinion gear). Their sales shot up 500% when the Belgium cyclocross rider was detected with their system. FOR ME about 200 watts of power would be ideal in a mid-drive.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Lighter weight, low power, lower range ebikes that provide a moderate assist only when climbing. Like this : Focus Project Y - electric motors in road bikes? | GRAN FONDO Cycling Magazine

Higher powered trail ebikes focused on long range and performance.

Higher powered self shuttling DH bikes, shorter range but focused on DH performance.

Burly drivetrains, 5 speed maybe, IGH or integrated motor and transmissions allowing changes to suspension kinematics.

Components increasingly focused on robustness and performance, less on weight.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Solar panels built into the frames to re-charge the batteries on the go seems like a natural progression. We are already seeing such things on Electric cars.

I also wonder about the ability to have a USB out to charge phones and other devices.

Possibly portable Solar Charging mats that can be plugged into the bike to also assist with battery replenishment while taking a break on a ride?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

USB ports are already pretty standard equipment on communting type ebikes, I haven't noticed them on emtbs, but it seems like an obivious feature.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

The trend will be for more power and more range, obviously. Same as any other vehicle (ie electric car, electric motorcycle, whatever) ever built by humans. 

I wouldn't be surprised to see very short cranks, too - if riders are mostly just spinning to activate the motor, that will allow lower BBs/fewer pedal strikes with negligible total power output impact. EX1 type drivetrains with fewer gears and more durable chains are probably in the pipeline as well given how much I've heard about broken chains and drivetrain problems on bikes like the LEVO - and that's at a relatively low power output. Raise the bar to true 750W bikes and you'll need track-chain type strength but still something that will work with a derailleur. 

-Walt


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> Solar panels built into the frames to re-charge the batteries on the go seems like a natural progression. We are already seeing such things on Electric cars.
> I also wonder about the ability to have a USB out to charge phones and other devices.
> Possibly portable Solar Charging mats that can be plugged into the bike to also assist with battery replenishment while taking a break on a ride?


Solar panels would not have enough surface to be useful. Even on cars that's negligeable.

As for the usb, almost all display (Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, ...) already have one to charge phone or gps. There is also ports to connect lights.


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

Walt said:


> The trend will be for more power and more range, obviously.


More range yes, batteries capacity increases every year but more power not sure. This would evolve towards the "e-motorbike" everyone is afraid of and for riders it would be a completely different experience.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

eFat said:


> More range yes, batteries capacity increases every year but more power not sure. This would evolve towards the "e-motorbike" everyone is afraid of and for riders it would be a completely different experience.


I agree. I think manufacturers would do well to consult those in charge of advocating, land managers etc and work towards manufacturer bikes that keep mountain bike "esque" qualities and capabilities which would mean limiting power and speed to around what we have now, just make the batteries more efficient.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Double Butted said:


> I agree. I think manufacturers would do well to consult those in charge of advocating, land managers etc and work towards manufacturer bikes that keep mountain bike "esque" qualities and capabilities which would mean limiting power and speed to around what we have now, just make the batteries more efficient.


I also agree.

Current pedal-assist e-mtbs have enough power. I'd trade power for lighter overall bikes and longer range.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

motor technology is already mature and you can get incredible power from light mid-mounted motors. 3000+ watts would be easy with the current size of the motors.
Castle creations has a 44 oz motor that can put out 7500 watts. Of course you need to cool that monster.

The main problem is energy storage. Everyone wants lighter ebikes but more than that people want more range/power. Triple the energy density of the battery and cars, motorcycles and bikes all become long range transportation.

Solar panels while neat, would do almost nothing on the bike. Having an array that you can setup while at work could give you a useful charge.

With the extra power and range we will have to shift to internal gears. Whether they are in the front or back, switching to a straight chain-line and no derailleur will make a more robust system.

IMO current ratings of motor output are a joke. Most have 2/3x more power then stated. They simply don't want to exceed regulations. The same thing happen in japan where every sports car magically had 276hp.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

Double Butted said:


> I agree. I think manufacturers would do well to consult those in charge of advocating, land managers etc and work towards manufacturer bikes that keep mountain bike "esque" qualities and capabilities which would mean limiting power and speed to around what we have now, just make the batteries more efficient.


I agree as well. 
Also, I can only speak for myself here and acknowledge that others circumstances and desires may differ, but I do not see any need for more power than what my Levo delivers at present. For the type of trail riding I do, its more than enough, and agree that limitations to the power output should become the industry standard for this class of pedal assist bike.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

KiwiPhil said:


> I agree as well.
> Also, I can only speak for myself here and acknowledge that others circumstances and desires may differ, but I do not see any need for more power than what my Levo delivers at present. For the type of trail riding I do, its more than enough, and agree that limitations to the power output should become the industry standard for this class of pedal assist bike.


It's a nice thought, and I mean that sincerely as I agree that at 250w the motor is there only to assist more than with a "750w" motor, which as Alex said, can certainly happily put out far more power than that continuously. I asked the policy guy at Peopleforbikes, who is pushing through the Class 1-3 legislation across the US, why if they loosely modeled it after the EU regs, why they didn't adopt the same reasonable 250w/15.5 mph limits for Class 1 and he said that it was because people were already selling ebikes here with over 250w. Which is shortsighted, since I think 750w emtbs will only hurt access for those who are happy with 250w emtbs.

None of the major manufacturers have commented one way or the other on if they will take advantage of the higher limits available in the US, which I find telling. As well as that I have a few connections and I've heard that testing of components is underway.



alexbn921 said:


> The main problem is energy storage. Everyone wants lighter ebikes but more than that people want more range/power. Triple the energy density of the battery and cars, motorcycles and bikes all become long range transportation.


FWIW, Specialized expects the energy density in batteries to increase 10-12% per year going forward.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Agree 250 w is enough for me; any more is excess (except on the street where the 28 mph limit is perfect IMO.
Be interesting to see if they can coax more than the current (pun is accidental) 3.5 a-h from a 18650 battery. Probably need a change of chemistry.
SRAM has had a more robust e-grouppo, the EX-1 for a couple of years, but I've yet to see one on an e-bike. FOR ME, lighter weight would be my primary request.
I've avoided the chainline issues by running three speeds which are adequate for me with a motor.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

If regenerative braking capability could be packaged on a bicycle without adding too much weight or cost, and could capture more than 50% of the kinetic energy normally lost to braking, that would be a leap forward (on trails that require a significant amount of braking). I think that is a long way off though.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

JACKL said:


> If regenerative braking capability could be packaged on a bicycle without adding too much weight or cost, and could capture more than 50% of the kinetic energy normally lost to braking, that would be a leap forward (on trails that require a significant amount of braking). I think that is a long way off though.


Regenerative braking is already part of ebikes. It's a simple software implemented feature. It only works on direct drive and hub motors though, as you need the motor coupled to a wheel.
It's closer to 10% return, but every little bit helps.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

fos'l said:


> Agree 250 w is enough for me; any more is excess (except on the street where the 28 mph limit is perfect IMO.
> Be interesting to see if they can coax more than the current (pun is accidental) 3.5 a-h from a 18650 battery. Probably need a change of chemistry.
> SRAM has had a more robust e-grouppo, the EX-1 for a couple of years, but I've yet to see one on an e-bike. FOR ME, lighter weight would be my primary request.
> I've avoided the chainline issues by running three speeds which are adequate for me with a motor.


I just put the EX1 on my Levo and it is really nice. Zero issues shifting under load. It makes sense. I also agree that range would be my #1 interest. Able to go ride 75 miles off-road in one setting would be killer. My Turbo road bike can squeeze out around 80-90 with 4-6k feet of climbing. It has regen mode but only boosts 1-2% more battery even after 4-5 mile downhills.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Didn't know that. True every little bit helps, but boy 10% leaves a lot on the table. Especially for commuter e-bikes dealing with stop and go.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

You really don't brake as much as you might think on most trail rides - IMO it's not going to end up doing much to do regen braking. It would be complex to implement, too, since bikes tend to be rear wheel drive and 80-90% of your braking happens with the front wheel (in terms of actually slowing down in a mountain bike setting, if you're just dragging your rear brake down a long hill maybe it would be a bit different). You'd need a front hub motor, basically, and you'd need to somehow match the modulation/control of a friction brake. Could it be done? Sure. But the cost/benefit would be pretty lousy.

-Walt


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Thing I don't like about regen (and this could be just me) is the rapid change from acceleration to deceleration. Seems like it could be bad for the dropouts even with a torque arm.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

It's just you. The dropouts can handle that just fine, it's the same force you put on them with any form of brake.

Still probably doesn't make sense to do it, but you could if you wanted to without any ill effects on the frame.

-Walt


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Walt said:


> It's just you. The dropouts can handle that just fine, it's the same force you put on them with any form of brake.
> 
> Still probably doesn't make sense to do it, but you could if you wanted to without any ill effects on the frame.
> 
> -Walt


It's the torque being applied to the axle; which is minimal with rim or disc brakes. "Coaster-style" roller or drum brakes have their own torque arms to handle these forces. 99% of hub motors have resultant applied torque (propulsion or regen braking) transmitted through the axles (sometimes coupled to the frame through small torque arms).

So yes the load reversals could be a problem and the torque arms/dropouts would need to be designed to account for this. Not saying that this would be hard to do; it's just that most existing systems have enough slop to where this could be problematic.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

If I'm bombing steep downhills on my Turbo S road bike and don't want to use my discs, I'll drop into regen mode. It feels like a parachute just came out of your backside!


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

G, that's what I experienced with a BionX 500D system on a steep downhill. The force was dramatic and instantaneous. Also, many of the combinations have a steel axle in an aluminum dropout - not for me. Best thing about regen might be the savings in brake pads.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

If you can use it like a Jake brake, that would be pretty nifty for a loaded cargo bike.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

In the regards to increasing range using regen it does seem that "10%" would be on the low side. I really don't understand all the pieces to the puzzle but that 10% figure is probably realistic.

About 10 years ago I had an ATV converted to electric propulsion and it was regen-enabled. I did some fairly scientific testing (with/without regen) on a 1/2 mile backyard track and while the range stayed nearly the same with/without the regen lap times were about 5% faster. Something about having regen allowed me ride quicker; maybe it was having more battery voltage coming out of a corner because of a short-term over-volt during the regen.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Question, is regen going to result in the same phenomenon that we see with many Prius drivers that operate outside of normal traffic flows?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Harry, definitely impressive and maybe even a safety factor for an emergency stop. Probably fine with a steel frame too. I've heard some who have done extensive testing of thir systems report 10-15% in some instances, especially if there was a lot of elevation change; just not for me.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> Question, is regen going to result in the same phenomenon that we see with many Prius drivers that operate outside of normal traffic flows?


I don't think that anyone can answer that question.


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## Cody01 (Jul 23, 2014)

Because of the recent surge in ebike and ecar interest I do believe much more improved batteries and motors will be out in the next year or two. This is what has kept me from buying one. I wouldn't want to drop $4-5K and then in 6 months have it be obsolete. The future of improvements on this stuff is coming regardless of the current administration.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

Regenerative pedaling. You pedal, it charges the battery. One side of the crank holds the pedaling motor, the other side the regenerative motor. That would be an endless ride. We already have flashlights and radios that you turn a handle to run it.


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

That's a cool concept.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

A motor is a generator. You only need one. You could add resistance instead of boost and recharge the batteries.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

av8or said:


> Regenerative pedaling. You pedal, it charges the battery. One side of the crank holds the pedaling motor, the other side the regenerative motor. That would be an endless ride. We already have flashlights and radios that you turn a handle to run it.


This already exists, almost all PM motors work just as well as generators (or alternators); it's just a matter of how to tell the controller to go into regen mode. A push-on push-off SPST in parallel with a brake switch should suffice.

When "that would be an endless ride" is mentioned it sounds like perpetual motion is being suggested.

Tinfoil hat material.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

Yes. Motors are already generators, i'm saying one motor for boost and another to generate battery since one motor can't do both. Battery size and weight can be reduced since in theory, it will never run out of juice. You pedal, it charges the battery which then runs the boost motor which helps you pedal more. Endless cycle.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

av8or said:


> Yes. Motors are already generators, i'm saying one motor for boost and another to generate battery since one motor can't do both. Battery size and weight can be reduced since in theory, it will never run out of juice. You pedal, it charges the battery which then runs the boost motor which helps you pedal more. Endless cycle.


Perpetual motion is the first thing that came to my mind too. I guess your idea might work but it would be more efficient to invent a machine without the motors where all of your energy went directly towards turning the rear wheel.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

av8or said:


> Yes. Motors are already generators, i'm saying one motor for boost and another to generate battery since one motor can't do both. Battery size and weight can be reduced since in theory, it will never run out of juice. You pedal, it charges the battery which then runs the boost motor which helps you pedal more. Endless cycle.


Yep; tinfoil hat.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Moe Ped said:


> Yep; tinfoil hat.


But Moe Ped! Physics doesn't matter! Magic!

ZEHUS | human +

Specifications | Bike2

mandofootloose | Welcome to mando footloose

Those last two don't say that you need to charge them, but unless you want to sit in front of the TV and pedal all night, I don't know now else those batteries would charge up enabling you to throttle around. It's futuristic baby!

I've pedaled stationary bikes with generators on them, so, yep, you can produce juice, but not enough to propel yourself around in a 1:1 ratio.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

av8or said:


> Yes. Motors are already generators, i'm saying one motor for boost and another to generate battery since one motor can't do both. Battery size and weight can be reduced since in theory, it will never run out of juice. You pedal, it charges the battery which then runs the boost motor which helps you pedal more. Endless cycle.


If you're boosting with one motor and generating with the other you are losing power not making it. Motors aren't 100% efficient and you have just added weight to the bike for no reason. A simple switch can transition the motor from boost to regen and you can pedal your heart out. Hub motors already do this. Your thinking about this all wrong, sorry to say. You also have to be moving as the pedals don't decouple from the drivetrain on most designs.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Harryman said:


> But Moe Ped! Physics doesn't matter! Magic!
> 
> ZEHUS | human +
> 
> ...


Those are all pretty neat; the concept in a trike form (which I once mocked up) where the rider could continue pedaling (and charging) at stop lights has merit for city riding. (Of course with self-balancing technology maybe it doesn't have to be trike?)

Once for a college demonstration I rigged a stationary bike/generator to power a toaster. The challenge was "are you man enough to make toast?" And most men have a really hard time producing the power required long enough to toast a couple of pieces of bread in real time.

Self-balancing bike:


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

Moe Ped said:


> Yep; tinfoil hat.


This thread is geared on the "possible" evolution of e-bikes. How the e-bike can be improved. Or did you forget how cellphones used to be bricks in sizes, laptops were suitcases big..


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

av8or said:


> This thread is geared on the "possible" evolution of e-bikes. How the e-bike can be improved. Or did you forget how cellphones used to be bricks in sizes, laptops were suitcases big..


Somehow I don't foresee solving perpetual motion on the emotor or any other horizon.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

alexbn921 said:


> If you're boosting with one motor and generating with the other you are losing power not making it. Motors aren't 100% efficient and you have just added weight to the bike for no reason. A simple switch can transition the motor from boost to regen and you can pedal your heart out. Hub motors already do this. Your thinking about this all wrong, sorry to say. You also have to be moving as the pedals don't decouple from the drivetrain on most designs.


How can you loose power when it is stored on the battery? Again, hopefully weight would be reduced since battery size no longer need to be huge for storage since it is constantly recharged when you pedal. You would no longer have to plugin your ebike. You pedal, you charge the battery, battery runs the boost motor (not your pedalling), boost motor helps you pedal. No extra switches to fiddle with, just pedal. Simple concept, right


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

av8or said:


> How can you loose power when it is stored on the battery? Again, hopefully weight would be reduced since battery size no longer need to be huge for storage since it is constantly recharged when you pedal. You would no longer have to plugin your ebike. You pedal, you charge the battery, battery runs the boost motor (not your pedalling), boost motor helps you pedal. No extra switches to fiddle with, just pedal. Simple concept, right


Do you believe in perpetual motion?

B'cuz that's what you're describing.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It's great in concept, but there's all sorts of losses in the system. You'd probably have to create twice as much energy as what you'd get back from the battery. Generators are inefficient, batteries are inefficient, etc.

Bike powered electricity generators are not sustainable - LOW-TECH MAGAZINE


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Harryman said:


> It's great in concept, but there's all sorts of losses in the system. You'd probably have to create twice as much energy as what you'd get back from the battery. Generators are inefficient, batteries are inefficient, etc.
> 
> Bike powered electricity generators are not sustainable - LOW-TECH MAGAZINE


Yep, that was the problem with my pedal-powered toaster; the toaster needed "only" 900 watts but losses from the drive chain, alternator/generator and inverter were right there with what your link states. Lucky to get 60% of the effort transmitted to the toaster. (In other words about 1500 watts to run the 900 watt toaster) Lance???


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

Moe Ped said:


> Do you believe in perpetual motion?
> 
> B'cuz that's what you're describing.


lol. It's not a perpetual motion machine because it has a source of energy aka battery. Your'e thinking this way too much. Mine is just a concept. An ebike that would not need to be plugged in to charge the battery, which runs the boost motor, which help you pedal. a concept.. a good concept at that. Can you come up with something better?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

av8or said:


> lol. It's not a perpetual motion machine because it has a source of energy aka battery. Your'e thinking this way too much. Mine is just a concept. An ebike that would not need to be plugged in to charge the battery, which runs the boost motor, which help you pedal. a concept.. a good concept at that. Can you come up with something better?


But the appealing thing about e-bikes is that you get an extra "free" boost from the motor in addition to power supplied by pedaling. Your concept would require more energy from the rider than it could return, a net loss, which is why I suggested bypassing the generator idea and to just apply the power to the wheel.

A battery can be a power source but it can't generate power, only store it.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> But the appealing thing about e-bikes is that you get an extra "free" boost from the motor in addition to power supplied by pedaling. Your concept would require more energy from the rider than it could return, a net loss, which is why I suggested bypassing the generator idea and to just apply the power to the wheel.
> 
> A battery can be a power source but it can't generate power, only store it.


Another concept, Reduction gears.. pedal less but generate more power to charge battery. One more concept, smaller, lighter but powerful motors. We can all go on back and forth with this. My main premise is an ebike that self charges the battery, no more plugging in. Now how to apply it is anyones best guess. i came up with one.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

An e-bike motor/generator that is charged by using the riders energy would have to exceed 100% efficiency to match the efficiency of a bicycle. Good luck!


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

av8or you should read up on generators and motors.
Put simply so you can understand: Your idea is horrible. :madman:

A typical bike is 95% efficient. In other words 5% of your energy is wasted.
Pedaling a generator is 60% efficient when you factor in the losses from the battery and motor.

Now when you get on your heavy electric bike and pedal you go 35% slower for the same output with 30-40 lbs of extra weight. Factor in the weight and hills eat even more of your power. You also need two motors and two controllers which doubles the cost.

At this point you're just riding a really crappy heavy slow normal bike.

I see a kickstarter in your future. :thumbsup:


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> An e-bike motor/generator that is charged by using the riders energy would have to exceed 100% efficiency to match the efficiency of a bicycle. Good luck!


Maybe instead of providing problems like everyone else, provide solutions. 20 years ago, i had a motorola brick phone. Fast forward 2017 we now have cellphones smaller, faster and can perform tasks people then said was crazy and will never happen. Internet on your phone?, preposterous, camera to go with it? are you high? watch tv and movies on it? Satan be gone!! Who knows if my concept will stick, at least i have been providing alternatives to make it work.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

av8or said:


> Maybe instead of providing problems like everyone else, provide solutions. 20 years ago, i had a motorola brick phone. Fast forward 2017 we now have cellphones smaller, faster and can perform tasks people then said was crazy and will never happen. Internet on your phone?, preposterous, camera to go with it? are you high? watch tv and movies on it? Satan be gone!! Who knows if my concept will stick, at least i have been providing alternatives to make it work.


Dude! The earth is not flat.

Put some numbers on your concept and show us how it will work.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

alexbn921 said:


> av8or you should read up on generators and motors.
> Put simply so you can understand: Your idea is horrible. :madman:
> 
> A typical bike is 95% efficient. In other words 5% of your energy is wasted.
> ...


And your idea is better? Oh wait, you don't have one just trolling along. Again addressed to you, we don't have the motors or parts yet capable. but it doesn't mean it won't be available in the future. mine is a concept, simply that a concept, no one has attempted it because we don't have the technology yet, but when we get there, it is doable. all you posted is we don't have motors that will work. Maybe it is you who should read up on definition of "concept". Just in case, concept = an idea or invention or plan. aka nothing concrete


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

We should have a poll: will this idea suck. 100% yes.
Physics be damned.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

Moe Ped said:


> Dude! The earth is not flat.
> 
> Put some numbers on your concept and show us how it will work.


lol.. i already did. Ok, one more time for the slow readers. pedalling charges battery ( doable), battery runs boost motor( doable), motor helps you pedal (doable). Parts available, none at the moment. doable? with the right parts, maybe. solution provided by moe ped.. none..alternatives by moe ped.. none,, just trolling..


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

alexbn921 said:


> We should have a poll: will this idea suck. 100% yes.
> Physics be damned.


and you just trolling poll.. !00% yes.. at least i have contributed sometihng to what this thread is intended.. you however come n here and just troll


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

And MUTE. Ahhh much better.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

alexbn921 said:


> And MUTE. Ahhh much better.


lol typical troll. Gtg, flight to catch. to sum it up so far regenerative braking, regenerative pedalling and lastly solar power. All good concepts. All doable, with the right parts.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

av8or said:


> lol.. i already did. Ok, one more time for the slow readers. pedalling charges battery ( doable), battery runs boost motor( doable), motor helps you pedal (doable). Parts available, none at the moment. doable? with the right parts, maybe. solution provided by moe ped.. none..alternatives by moe ped.. none,, just trolling..


No, you did not put any numbers on your project.

Preferably numbers relating to wattage.

BTW I've built more e-bikes than I have fingers to count them on. And you?

(not sure who's getting trolled here?)


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

av8or said:


> lol typical troll. Gtg, flight to catch. to sum it up so far regenerative braking, regenerative pedalling and lastly solar power. All good concepts. All doable, with the right parts.


Please tell us you're not a pilot.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

av8or said:


> Maybe instead of providing problems like everyone else, provide solutions.


I did provide a solution, remove the motor, generator and battery and apply power directly to the rear wheel.

Honestly I'm not trolling or trying to make fun of your idea, it just seems to me that no matter how much battery and electric motor technology advances it would still require more power to move someone from point a to point b than just pedaling. It would require a change in the law of physics to work IMO.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Wow, this thread has improved so much. I wonder how many ebikes you can power by harnessing Newton spinning in his grave?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Everyone please repeat after me: Perpetual motion is not a viable concept.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

3 things. Lower weight, longer lasting batteries and more power. The manufacturers will have to address each of these if they want to stay competitive with other brands and consumers. If they are unable to progress in one of these three, they will pursue one of the others. Never ending. It's consumer driven capitalism and innovation.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

av8or said:


> lol typical troll. Gtg, flight to catch. to sum it up so far regenerative braking, regenerative pedalling and lastly solar power. All good concepts. All doable, with the right parts.


This may work 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> I did provide a solution, remove the motor, generator and battery and apply power directly to the rear wheel.
> 
> Honestly I'm not trolling or trying to make fun of your idea, it just seems to me that no matter how much battery and electric motor technology advances it would still require more power to move someone from point a to point b than just pedaling. It would require a change in the law of physics to work IMO.


Picture this then..

.








You turn the handle to run the flashlight. That handle now becomes your crank, you pedal it charges the battery. Now before anybody else chimes in and says you have to be pedalling real fast to get the desired output of energy, i know, but hear me out, maybe some sort of reduction gears so that you pedal less but get more energy to charge the battery. Possible solution. This concept depends on the future, on how small and powerful motors will be and requiring less energy to run it. Is this the future of ebike? I don't know. But it is one concept to get a regenerative ebike going. And moe ped, before you chime in, read "concept" definition again. I know you will provide more problems than solutions since you are the "expert" in ebike here having built dozens. Btw, yes 20 years now, are you now inclined to attack me personally?


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

"Pedal less but get more energy".

That's a gem.

I've never seen a licensed pilot so ignorant of the basic laws of physics.

Perhaps English isn't your first language?

Or has the 8 hours "bottle to throttle" clock not started yet?


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

^^^ Lol. Did you forget how the gears in your cars work. Clearly by your statements you just proved yourself to be an immature kid here. can't comprehend the "idea " so you resort to name calling and personal attacks. very classy moe ped


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

av8or said:


> Picture this then..
> 
> .
> View attachment 1144648
> ...


Dude! step into my office. A gear reduction does not change the amount of energy you are creating. You're trying to violate the rule of Conservation of energy.
I'm only an electrical engineer, what do I know.
Electric motors are a mature technology, there is every little grains to be made.
Not trolling you. Just trying to educate you.

Anyway as a poster above stated:
Lighter, Faster, Further. That's the future.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

alexbn921 said:


> Not trolling you. Just trying to educate you.


What he said.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

The future doesn't look bright.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

When I was designing my "pedal regen" system it was all about being able to charge the battery while stopped in traffic. (one marketing problem; since when do bikes stop in traffic?) The design quickly became a recumbent bike (less aero drag) and then a tilting recumbent trike (won't fall over when stopped) and then became a fully faired recumbent trike (even less aero drag and weather protection).

My scheme was to engage the pedal regen by back-pedaling when stopped (or even when coasting down a hill) but was tough to build with off-the-shelf components and keep it light and compact. Another simpler concept was to raise the driven wheel off the ground while at a stop and just keep pedaling forward while engaging the regen mode. Simple in concept, complex to achieve.

I got as far as building the tilting recumbent e-trike and was starting on a mold for the body shell when I came to my senses. Too much work for something that would probably get me killed in California traffic. In hindsight either the tilting or the shell should have been the focus, not both in the same vehicle.

Fun while it lasted though.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

The future of middrive and battery technology is to improve the aesthetics and integration so that they are indistinguishable from bikes that have no motor.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Linktung said:


> The future of middrive and battery technology is to improve the aesthetics and integration so that they are indistinguishable from bikes that have no motor.


True. It's also to squeeze all the performance out of the gear within the legal parameters as well. Every OEM middrive coming out is either lighter and/or has more torque than those that came before it. As well as we're starting to see use specific, for ecommuters, emtbs, etc.

Exclusive Review: Brose Drive S - Just how much better is the newest motor? | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine
[email protected]

Like every other industry, you always need something new to sell.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Wither emtb tech?

So obvious. I am considering up grading myself, and for a very simple reason: 400wh vs 650wh. 

While you can take a very nice ride with 400wh, the range puts many great trails here out of contention. I have to put my bike on a car to go to the trailhead, though it's only a few miles away. Why? Range. You are constantly dealing with it, because the battery is too small. The newer ones now have 500, but I think 650 is minimum for serious riding. 

It goes back to the regen braking talked about above. Why do I want it? My battery is too small. I could buy a 500 now, but they want 960USD. Such highway robbery. 

Long term tech, I think of what's weak in the backcountry. Spokes and cages. One little branch can take out the whole bike for the day. 27+ Loopwheels?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> Long term tech, I think of what's weak in the backcountry. Spokes and cages. One little branch can take out the whole bike for the day. 27+ Loopwheels?


For it's weight a spoked bicycle wheel is incredibly strong, I've been riding off road most of my life and and have never even come close to bending a wheel so bad that I couldn't ride it home. I suppose if you keep adding weight though eventually a stronger (heavier) wheel would be required.

What's a loopwheel?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> What's a loopwheel?


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...s.com/&usg=AFQjCNEQqCZ05mlxpLaegwqVqylhm_qQQA


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> For it's weight a spoked bicycle wheel is incredibly strong, I've been riding off road most of my life and and have never even come close to bending a wheel so bad that I couldn't ride it home. I suppose if you keep adding weight though eventually a stronger (heavier) wheel would be required.
> 
> What's a loopwheel?


TY up there for the pic.

JB, you think I'm just making up the issue? Let me toss a small stick though your spokes as you fly by,  Not an issue if your trails are in "park shape". In the real world, in the mountains, in the early season, there is wood all over the place, from the winter (we had epic winter) I've not been stranded yet, but I have lost spokes, and many times have barely stopped myself before I took out the wheel for this reason in various maneuvers. I've lost spokes off the bike, moving slowing in the underbrush. It's a non issue on motos, as the spokes are far far thougher, and heavier. I don't pine for spokeless on the motos, because, while in extreme situations they will fail, in general the stick looses.

We know the mag wheels won't give like they should, and we don't want more weight. I'm amazed the issue is not already dealt with. Of course an entire industry would collapse if it was 

Next I would like to get past that silly cage hanging down where it can get wacked. There are options, but none very attractive or polished (shifting issues). I just straighten ed my hanger for the nth time today. This time I was going 2mph.

OK I could have more serious problems


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> I'm amazed the issue is not already dealt with. Of course an entire industry would collapse if it was


I'm amazed I haven't heard more of this "issue" here on the forums or experienced it myself. I guess I don't ride real mountains. Also amazed that an entire industry could collapse if only this one "problem" would go away.

There are some pretty good internal gear options if the derailleur is giving you grief.



life behind bars said:


> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...s.com/&usg=AFQjCNEQqCZ05mlxpLaegwqVqylhm_qQQA


Re-inventing the wheel, i'm not convinced.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I've broken a number of spokes over the years and tacoed my fair share of wheels, but never from sticks. You're the only one I've ever heard complain of it.

DT swiss is making stronger ebike specific wheels these days, so maybe your dreams have come true?

https://electricbikereport.com/dt-swiss-hybrid-wheels-electric-mountain-bikes/

Yeah, I too expect to see derailleurs become less common as ebike power picks up, it's the wrong application.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

The usual complaint is sticks taking out rear derailleurs/hangers. 

Wheels are freaking hard to kill with a stick. You can break a spoke or two, and then you have to nurse it home and... spend $5 on a couple spokes. That's assuming you're alive/functional after going OTB (front wheel stick, which I have witnessed performed by my wife who walked away with just a chipped tooth) or unexpectedly locking up your rear wheel at some sort of decent speed. 

I mean, I have been riding for a LOOOONG time, and I ride a lot... and I've never destroyed a wheel with a stick. I'm not sure I've ever heard of anyone doing it. I've seen people destroy wheels by hitting wildlife, cars, trees, rocks, curbs that were taller than they looked, the street at the bottom of loading docks, etc... but never by getting a stick in the spokes. 

Even dirtbikes use spoked wheels (with like 12 gauge spokes or whatever, but still). And they don't break wheels, ever, basically. With an extra 200+ pounds of weight!

-Walt


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

What about a battery, electromagnets in the rim to create a field to power the rear wheel. I think it's already past the concept phase. Mag lev in those Japanese trains?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

L, Germans already have working prototype. 26 pound bike that goes 60 mph. Rotor in rims and stator in seatstays. Problem for MTB use is dirt can impair system, well, that and the first one cost $200,000 (I know the price will go down).


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

60? Hmm, thats a lot of clearing gaps and air time. Does it turn in the air? Devil is in the details. Are the cheaters in the tour de farce using some this year? Good stuff though.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

L, really ingenious (you too), but relatively simple. Direct drive (obviously) with the fixed magnets in the rims and the electromagnet in the seatstays AFAIK. Problem is when dirt interferes with the magnet field between the rims and stator.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

fos'l said:


> L, Germans already have working prototype. 26 pound bike that goes 60 mph. Rotor in rims and stator in seatstays. Problem for MTB use is dirt can impair system, well, that and the first one cost $200,000 (I know the price will go down).


With a 500wh battery you will get >10 minutes of range at 60 mph. Probably closer to 5 minutes.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Internal geared hubs with 5 speeds that will live with eMTB torque or integral gearboxes built into the motor. With power assist there is no need for 10 gears, 5 will be enough for most people and if the transmission is internal you can replace the chain with a clean dry belt.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

*More tin foil hat.*



leeboh said:


> What about a battery, electromagnets in the rim to create a field to power the rear wheel. I think it's already past the concept phase. Mag lev in those Japanese trains?


Here's a DIY guy working on the concept; he thinks he might be on the right track for perpetual motion.






In practical term it's a stupid idea if relying on permanent magnets in the rotor (wheel); imagine all the road trash that will get stuck to the rim? Nails, screws, tacks and bottle caps!

Also notice that it's pretty noisy even with no load. Yeah it can be quieted down but if built using the PMA method it will always pick up road trash. Those magnets are uber powerful.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

alexbn921 said:


> With a 500wh battery you will get >10 minutes of range at 60 mph. Probably closer to 5 minutes.


That's the next challenge; one at a time.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

This thread has generated many opinions so I might as well ad mine.
If you need more power than the current e-mtb's have in Turbo mode, get a dirt bike.
Remember that these are bicycles.
In most cases the e-mtb regardless of power or speed will be legally limited to the moto trails anyway .
On some flats and downhills I wish for a higher speed from 20 to 28 mph.
I am sure the battery life/motor efficiency will improve but are we willing to pay what it costs to get any significant weight reduction?
A low end full suspension non assist mtb costs $4000 and weighs 30 pounds.
A high end full suspension non assist mtb costs $10,000 and weighs maybe 24 pounds.
That is $1000 per pound and those bikes will not be as plush of a ride due to reduced suspension travel.
I would be curious what my Haibike would feel like if i somehow converted the battery to be in a back pack like some of the after market electric kits do?
Would i enjoy having a 6 pound battery plus the hydration bladder there?
I am not so sure having only 3 or 5 speeds would be desireable.
I switched from the Shimano 1x11 to the Sram EX1 1x8.
I like the duribility of the EX1 but often miss the gear spacing of the 1x11 especially at lower assist levels.

Highroad2


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## buell (Oct 15, 2015)

using a dynamo front hub to recharge the battery /sarcasm


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Just like with electric cars, the battery is the be-all, end-all of ongoing technology. Lighter, more energy dense cells, more Wh compared to a battery for sale today, all to yield greater mileage potential in real life situations.

Other than that, lowering the costs of these machines would be kinda nice, as well.


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