# Why are ebikes banned in Moab on mountain bike trails?



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

I've been to Moab twice with my Levo and I can't really understand why the ban. Basically I think it is because the purists got their foot in the door first and started spreading the hate. 

One of the complaints of the purists is "the uphill speed, the uphill speed" to quote one of the ebike moderators of this forum. Moab isn't known for blind corners on mountain bike trails so that rules out that complaint. Another complaint is "ebikes cause erosion". Again, not something related to bikes in Moab. 

Specifically, I would like to talk about the Captain Ahab trail. It is 30 minutes from the parking lot to the Captain Ahab trail head, by ebike, using the jeep road. Captain Ahab is a one way trail. It is basically a custom built balls to wall trail built on public land. The trail builders did not follow the natural lay of the land and moved whatever boulders they felt like and made whatever stunt they felt like. 

Why should the purists have sole access to a trail like that?


----------



## Willy Fister (Nov 7, 2016)

Probably because e bike riders are a "see you next Tuesday" crowd. 

Like the lawyer guy In the forest service thread. 

d bags like him make it easy to hate you all.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

They're banned on non motorized trails on BLM & USFS because they're motorized. It's simple.


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

The real question is...why do some people troll?


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Is this a trick question? Because they have motors?


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Seriously. My honda 250 should be able to be on those trails too. It has 2 wheels and would be a ton of fun. Make it happen Giant Warp.


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

I wanna ride UP TWE on a four stroke, so therefore I should be allowed to.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Moab has tons of motorized access. Go get it on yer Honda.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Ooh! Ooh! Pick me!


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Yes Mr. Bars - tell the class your answer please.


----------



## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Damn purists always spoils the fun. Lets ban purists. They ruin everything. Purists should go to h3ll. Douchebag purists!
smh @ purists


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

alexbn921 said:


> Seriously. My honda 250 should be able to be on those trails too. It has 2 wheels and would be a ton of fun. Make it happen Giant Warp.


I may take the Nissan Maxima out there for a trail ride someday. Sounds fun!


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I personally think they should be allowed on Ahab. I don't think it would affect anyone in any meaningful way. You could probably open up a lot of stuff in Moab safely, really. 

But bluntly, the USFS and BLM aren't interested/able to micromanage a lot of this stuff, and the e-bike industry made some HUGE early mistakes ("can go anywhere a bike can go", "legally the same as a bike", "not a motorized vehicle") that have created a lot of ill will. If the advocacy for access had started differently and with a bit of humility, there would still be some purist jerks out there who hate all motors (but drive their Subaru 500 miles to go ride in Moab) but you'd have more support from the middle ground folks like me. But that chance is gone. Now it's going to be a looong uphill climb to get access to any of that stuff.

C'est la vie. 

-Walt


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

I have no problem with ebikes and even built my wife a town ebike. It's great for school trips and towing the kids places. Also helps bridge the gap when we ride together. The problem is mountain bike access and the crazy stupid fight we are in to get any kind of single track access in the bay area. Ebikes are trying to lump themselves in with mountain bikes and not assisting in the fight for trails/access. When you just say mountain bikers have access (that they spent years working for) we should too. It's never that simple and ebikers calling us out only puts more pressure and a spotlight on our activities. There are a lot of gray areas without enforcement that as long as there is no conflict get ignored. Pointing that out hurts all mountain bikers in the area.
Anyway moab seems to have trails that could accommodate ebikes. Do the real work and lobby for it. Get your ebike friends to band together and go threw the proper channels. Maybe even form a national foundation that advocates for access. Lots of money getting invested in the technology.
Good luck. :thumbsup:


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Giant Warp said:


> I've been to Moab twice with my Levo and I can't really understand why the ban. Basically I think it is because the purists got their foot in the door first and started spreading the hate.
> 
> One of the complaints of the purists is "the uphill speed, the uphill speed" to quote one of the ebike moderators of this forum. Moab isn't known for blind corners on mountain bike trails so that rules out that complaint. Another complaint is "ebikes cause erosion". Again, not something related to bikes in Moab.
> 
> ...


 It's open to bike without motors. You're welcome to pedal or walk if you can't. Might be a questions for those in charge/management.


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

The blanket ban will show cracks sooner or later. The complaint that "it has a motor" is starting to sound childish and it is not really valid in most areas of Moab. People saying otherwise either have not ridden an ebike, have not been to Moab or they have just plain lost the ability to look at things objectively. I've had motos since I was a kid. I understand the offence that they bring. They cause erosion, they are loud, and they look scary. Trails like the Ahab don't have issues with erosion and ebikes are basically silent. The trail is also one way and I wouldn't consider Captain Ahab a "speed" trail where an electric motor would provide any increase in downhill speed.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Giant Warp said:


> The blanket ban will show cracks sooner or later. The complaint that "it has a motor" is starting to sound childish and it is not really valid in most areas of Moab. People saying otherwise either have not ridden an ebike, have not been to Moab or they have just plain lost the ability to look at things objectively. I've had motos since I was a kid. I understand the offence that they bring. They cause erosion, they are loud, and they look scary. Trails like the Ahab don't have issues with erosion and ebikes are basically silent. The trail is also one way and I wouldn't consider Captain Ahab a "speed" trail where an electric motor would provide any increase in downhill speed.


Fair enough. Like another poster pointed out, you guys could form an advocacy group and go after some access of your own. Just don't expect Cyclists to do it for you.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Giant Warp said:


> The blanket ban will show cracks sooner or later. The complaint that "it has a motor" is starting to sound childish and it is not really valid in most areas of Moab. People saying otherwise either have not ridden an ebike, have not been to Moab or they have just plain lost the ability to look at things objectively. I've had motos since I was a kid. I understand the offence that they bring. They cause erosion, they are loud, and they look scary. Trails like the Ahab don't have issues with erosion and ebikes are basically silent. The trail is also one way and I wouldn't consider Captain Ahab a "speed" trail where an electric motor would provide any increase in downhill speed.


I agree with all of this and again - I think e-bikes should be granted access (or not) on a case by case basis. Ahab is the PERFECT trail for an e-bike - it's one-way, accessed via doubletrack/road, and attracts very few (if any) hikers.

If we could all just sit down and agree that e-bikes are fine on wide open directional bike-only trails, that would be awesome. We should also agree they probably don't belong (unless governed to 10mph or something) on 2-way MUTs with mediocre sight lines, because really nobody wants 30+mph closing speeds or having to watch their backs on a long climb while hiking with their kids.

In between there are plenty of trails it might be worth trying them out on to see what happens.

Unfortunately we have the "they are just bikes I can ride anywhere I want" crowd as well as the "I'm 75 years old and only have one leg so suck it up motors are always evil" crowd and they're both apparently unable to be reasonable.

-Walt


----------



## jvbutter (Aug 3, 2015)

Giant Warp said:


> The blanket ban will show cracks sooner or later. The complaint that "it has a motor" is starting to sound childish and it is not really valid in most areas of Moab. .


so its a motor... its an assist right? so whats the big deal, its not like there on a 250r where they are ripping up the trial. If they had a noise level, ok, i can see the ban.


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Wait... It's 30 minutes from the parking lot to the Ahab trail head? Did they move the parking lot? I was there last year and it was no where near 30 minutes. It was 10 MAX on my human leg powered bike.

Now, Ahab is probably an appropriate trail for an assisted bike, but why does anyone who differentiates between human power and an E-motor assist automatically get labeled as a "hater"?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> Fair enough. Like another poster pointed out, you guys could form an advocacy group and go after some access of your own. Just don't expect Cyclists to do it for you.


Yup, this.

MTBers don't make these rules, dunno why e-bikers care at all what we think or spend time arguing with MTBers about anything. Take your arguments to the proper authorities and just leave mountain bikers out of it, as e-bikes are a totally separate class of vehicle.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

chuckha62 said:


> Wait... It's 30 minutes from the parking lot to the Ahab trail head? Did they move the parking lot? I was there last year and it was no where near 30 minutes. It was 10 MAX on my human leg powered bike.
> 
> Now, Ahab is probably an appropriate trail for an assisted bike, but why does anyone who differentiates between human power and an E-motor assist automatically get labeled as a "hater"?


Maybe he means 23min for the charge and 7min to get to the trailhead.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Giant Warp said:


> The blanket ban will show cracks sooner or later. The complaint that "it has a motor" is starting to sound childish and it is not really valid in most areas of Moab.


Until the USFS/BLM allows districts some flexibility in how to apply usage bans, I don't see how it'll show cracks. You're dealing with a massive bureaucracy, system wide orders will come down from on high.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Harryman said:


> Until the USFS/BLM allows districts some flexibility in how to apply usage bans, I don't see how it'll show cracks. You're dealing with a massive bureaucracy, system wide orders will come down from on high.


I would also suggest not telling them they 'sound childish' when they bring up the glaringly obvious fact that you have a motor on your bike. Probably not the best approach, but what do I know?


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

chuckha62 said:


> Wait... It's 30 minutes from the parking lot to the Ahab trail head? Did they move the parking lot? I was there last year and it was no where near 30 minutes. It was 10 MAX on my human leg powered bike.


Maybe we are talking about a different trail. The gravel road is .6 miles and the ride up Amassa to the ridge line is 2.7 miles. A ride directly up Amasa to Captain Ahab and looping back will be 8 miles and 1800 vertical feet of climbing.

A ride that I want to do that is described on Utahmountainbiking.com is an Epic Tour of Amasa for 17 miles and 3000 vertical feet. This is a monster ride, hitting all of Amasa, Pothole Arch, Rockstacker, and Captain Ahab. This is definitely in the range of the Levo at a lower power setting.

I've had to climb Amasa in the mid day sun in the hottest part of the summer on a regular mountain bike. If the Levo will take the heat it would definitely take the edge off of climbing in the miserable heat.


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> I would also suggest not telling them they 'sound childish' when they bring up the glaringly obvious fact that you have a motor on your bike. Probably not the best approach, but what do I know?


I don't know if they are childish since I have not spoken with them. All I have to go off of is the purists on this forum. In over 700 miles on an ebike I have ran into maybe a couple of ebike riders in the dirt and many grandpas and grandmas on the asphalt. To listen to some of the posters on this forum the ebikers are the hell's angels roosting up trails in your local bird sanctuary. 
It is interesting to read mountain bike history. You have these burly guys with huge side burns riding their road bikes in the dirt and digging illegal trails. They are held up in high regard and are worshipped by the mountain bike community. Fast forward 30 years and the rebels act like they own the place. There isn't any part of the Amasa trail network that would be harmed by an ebike. However, the jury is still out on the trail builders that "re-sculpt" the natural landscape and build a technical bike park for exclusive use amongst themselves.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Why are you in Moab in the hottest part of the summer?

I mean, I still agree you should be able to ride most of those trails on an e-bike (or motorcycle, probably) but why on earth are you not just riding somewhere else in July? 

-Walt


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Giant Warp said:


> I don't know if they are childish since I have not spoken with them. All I have to go off of is the purists on this forum. In over 700 miles on an ebike I have ran into maybe a couple of ebike riders in the dirt and many grandpas and grandmas on the asphalt. To listen to some of the posters on this forum the ebikers are the hell's angels roosting up trails in your local bird sanctuary.
> It is interesting to read mountain bike history. You have these burly guys with huge side burns riding their road bikes in the dirt and digging illegal trails. They are held up in high regard and are worshipped by the mountain bike community. Fast forward 30 years and the rebels act like they own the place. There isn't any part of the Amasa trail network that would be harmed by an ebike. However, the jury is still out on the trail builders that "re-sculpt" the natural landscape and build a technical bike park for exclusive use amongst themselves.


So again, why are you talking about this anonymously with random mountain bikers instead of going to the land managers with your issues? I never go wasting time yakking about how great mountain biking is on birdwatching or AMC websites, I go to the source.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Giant Warp said:


> Maybe we are talking about a different trail. The gravel road is .6 miles and the ride up Amassa to the ridge line is 2.7 miles. A ride directly up Amasa to Captain Ahab and looping back will be 8 miles and 1800 vertical feet of climbing.
> 
> A ride that I want to do that is described on Utahmountainbiking.com is an Epic Tour of Amasa for 17 miles and 3000 vertical feet. This is a monster ride, hitting all of Amasa, Pothole Arch, Rockstacker, and Captain Ahab. This is definitely in the range of the Levo at a lower power setting.
> 
> I've had to climb Amasa in the mid day sun in the hottest part of the summer on a regular mountain bike. If the Levo will take the heat it would definitely take the edge off of climbing in the miserable heat.


I'm guessing most people think of the area where Lower Hymasa/Cliff Hanger cross Cane Creek as the trailhead. I mean, where else would the trailhead be?

Shortly after that, Ahab splits off to the left, then Hymasa to the right.

Do people actually ride Cliff Hanger for anything other than a connection to other trails?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Mother Of All Ebikes....MOAEB....lets ride Giant Warp...yee haw! The lawyer dude can ride with us any day as well...


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> Mother Of All Ebikes....MOAEB....lets ride Giant Warp...yee haw! The lawyer dude can ride with us any day as well...


Just not on non-motorized trails in Moab, or any other USFS or BLM property, please.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> Just not on non-motorized trails in Moab, or any other USFS or BLM property, please.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Yes Sir and you don't be breaking the speed limit on the highways while driving either...deal?....;-)


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes Sir and you don't be breaking the speed limit on the highways while driving either...deal?....;-)


My speeding on the interstate isn't going to get cars banned from the road, nor is it going to result in the construction of fewer roads. And, my car has every legal right to be on the road, having passed a yearly safety inspection and a renewed state registration.

As opposed to a hopped up e-bike tearing around trails it is not allowed to be on at all.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Look, the speeding in your car thing has been brought up repeatedly. It makes no sense and the whole concept (that only perfect people can make judgements about right and wrong) is so ludicrous it's laughable. 

If anything the fact that some people speed should be an argument AGAINST allowing technology that allows higher speeds on trails, but apparently that's lost on the folks who repeatedly bring this up. 

-Walt


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

It looks like we did catch Hymasa a short way out of the parking lot and met with Ahab a ways up. We actually did start to ride the fire road up and then realized we passed right by the trailhead. Once we corrected that mistake, it was all linked up trails for the rest of the day. 

I will digress sightly here. We were looking at our trail map and noting that we had to go around "Whale Rock". I asked my buddy, "Where the hell is Whale Rock?". Then I looked up. DOH! A massive whale shaped rock. Loved it.


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Ltz470 you are literally trying to create the reason why there is so much hatred towards ebikes. 

Since ebikes are hard to distinguish from regular mountain bikes to the uninitiated once the land managers realize the basic law of "nothing motorized is allowed" is being broken regularly they will simply ban mountain bikes on said trails.

Basically ruining it for everyone and spitting in the faces of those that put in all the effort to make the trails possible.

Literally the same principle as spitting in the faces of veterans (or on Graves of) that fought and died so you could sit here and debate ebike access.

I'm not against ebikes as pedal assist systems (or for any use that is not on trails marked as non-motorized only) in any way. I kind of want a fat bike version for winter commuting and they look like a blast to go stomping around on.

But breaking the law then bragging about it is going to ruin access for all, so let's rethink that please.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Not bragging at all...I ride within the limits of any other riders on the trails, also respect other riders and stop to allow them to pass if required without them asking...IF someone is down or working on their bike I see if they need assistance, if they do I stop and offer anything I have to help...

Respect is a two way street, and I never have issues anywhere I have ridden other than folks calling me a "cheater" and laughing about it in jest...we all stop converse and enjoy the riding...NEVER an issue with anyone EXCEPT the knobhead purists on this forum...lol...it's all good, live and let live....I am sure none of you ever text or drive while talking on your cell either...;-)....you guys are so good, no one can possibly get over the bar you all have set...lol....


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Cool story Opie. And for the record, I don't text. Ever. So save your straw man arguments and tall tales for the newbs at the Moose Lodge.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

life behind bars said:


> Cool story Opie. And for the record, I don't text. Ever. So save your straw man arguments and tall tales for the newbs at the Moose Lodge.


No worries Mr Gump, you don't have to read my post, and you don't have to respond either if you are lacking the capabilities to comprehend...most folks do however understand...and of course most folks know how to text as well, you should learn how, I am sure one of your more edumacated purist buddies could teach you...lol....


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

You actually failed to read any of my post obviously because nothing I said had anything to do with being a "purist" because I'm not. The only point that matters is those that break the law and cost mountain bikers access to the trails. 

Has nothing to do with speed or anything of the sort in my post. It's purely the clearly stated law "no motorized vehicles allowed" and by definition an ebike is a "motorized vehicle". It has an electric motor. Unless an exception has been made on whatever trails you ride, taking an ebike on them is breaking the law and can cause loss of access.

You coming here arguing that you should be allowed to break the law and about riding an ebike where it may not be allowed is bragging and can result in problems.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm not a purist by any means either and don't really care if you break the law as long as the you're giving the black eye to e-bikes and not mountain bikes. Keep that logical distinction clear, leave MTBs out of it completely, and I don't care what you do. Problem is, that distinction isn't as clear as it should be these days, and the 'e-bike industry' and riders seem pretty intent on trying to present them as 'the same thing as', which will just end up screwing everybody. Otherwise, if they don't affect my access, have fun!


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> .I am sure none of you ever text or drive while talking on your cell either...;-)....you guys are so good, no one can possibly get over the bar you all have set...lol....


You keep making these sorts of comparisons... what is the point, are you trying to say that just because some people travel above the posted speed limit that makes it okay for you to break the law?

Any police officer will tell you, just because others are doing it does not make it right for you to do it. That is not a valid argument.

Don't worry about what anyone else is doing, just take care of your own business.

Figure out a more logical way to try and make your point, or stop posting about it. It is starting to feel like you are trolling and if you keep it up your account will get a ban. Be civilized or don't post.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Klurejr said:


> You keep making these sorts of comparisons... what is the point, are you trying to say that just because some people travel above the posted speed limit that makes it okay for you to break the law?
> 
> Any police officer will tell you, just because others are doing it does not make it right for you to do it. That is not a valid argument.
> 
> ...


Touche....well said...that includes me riding my emtb...

"Don't worry about what anyone else is doing, just take care of your own business"


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Touche....well said...that includes me riding my emtb...
> 
> "Don't worry about what anyone else is doing, just take care of your own business"


You might consider following your own advice. By posting your views on a public forum you intentionally make it other peoples business. But you already knew that.


----------



## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Walt said:


> Look, the speeding in your car thing has been brought up repeatedly. It makes no sense and the whole concept (that only perfect people can make judgements about right and wrong) is so ludicrous it's laughable.
> 
> *If anything the fact that some people speed should be an argument AGAINST allowing technology that allows higher speeds on trails, but apparently that's lost on the folks who repeatedly bring this up. *
> 
> -Walt


This this this...


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Speed arguments relating to ebikes don't really apply to Moab. So far I haven't seen anyone in this thread rebut this. Some trails are concrete sidewalks, some trails are lined with cactus, some trails have dangerous exposure, many trails were made by mountain bikers for mountain bikers so there is no confrontation with hikers, Class I and II ebikes are for all intensive purposes stealthy. If someone's battery caught fire it wouldn't start a forest fire. The BLM doesn't patrol trails. I am starting to think the BLM code is really much more of "guide line". In Utah, the law says class I and II ebikes are considered bicycles.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Giant Warp said:


> Speed arguments relating to ebikes don't really apply to Moab. So far I haven't seen anyone in this thread rebut this. Some trails are concrete sidewalks, some trails are lined with cactus, some trails have dangerous exposure, many trails were made by mountain bikers for mountain bikers so there is no confrontation with hikers, Class I and II ebikes are for all intensive purposes stealthy. If someone's battery caught fire it wouldn't start a forest fire. The BLM doesn't patrol trails. I am starting to think the BLM code is really much more of "guide line". In Utah, the law says class I and II ebikes are considered bicycles.


And what Utah says is fine for Utah land.

Moab trails are almost exclusively on federal land. BLM, USFS. Thus, federal law. Pretty simple. Don't like it? Don't ride there.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Of course 2/3 of Utah is claimed by the federal government. I think I just became a state's rights supporter.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Giant Warp said:


> Of course 2/3 of Utah is claimed by the federal government. I think I just became a state's rights supporter.


Uh, "state's rights" doesn't apply to non-state land... Meaning, this isn't a 10A issue.

Besides. A couple fire heavy years and Utah will be begging the Feds to take the land back.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Look, I would support e-bike access to most of the trails in Moab (maybe some of the stuff up in the LaSals wouldn't work, but all the desert/slickrock riding is fine) if we could just agree that not every trail is appropriate for higher power/higher speed vehicles, and that e-bikes should be granted/not granted access on that basis. 

There is no reason on earth that e-bikes couldn't integrate into most of the Moab trail systems smoothly and easily. No reason at all. But until e-bike advocates will step back and admit that there are also places they are NEVER going to be appropriate, it's a dead issue for me. I'm not about to go call up the BLM and ask for e-bike access because the proponents/industry have decided to go with this all-or-nothing "same as a bike" strategy. That's offensive and it's stupid, too. 

-Walt


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Last time I was in Moab I saw this on the slick rock trail. I understand it is on private land but, "what the hell?".


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Every time I post a picture it turns it on its side or upside down. I don't know why. Only happens on this site.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Giant Warp said:


> Last time I was in Moab I saw this on the slick rock trail. I understand it is on private land but, "what the hell?".


It isn't yours so don't worry about it.


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

I had to draw on the picture and save it to keep it right side up.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It goes to the zipline


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Walt said:


> Look, I would support e-bike access to most of the trails in Moab (maybe some of the stuff up in the LaSals wouldn't work, but all the desert/slickrock riding is fine) if we could just agree that not every trail is appropriate for higher power/higher speed vehicles, and that e-bikes should be granted/not granted access on that basis.
> 
> There is no reason on earth that e-bikes couldn't integrate into most of the Moab trail systems smoothly and easily. No reason at all. But until e-bike advocates will step back and admit that there are also places they are NEVER going to be appropriate, it's a dead issue for me. I'm not about to go call up the BLM and ask for e-bike access because the proponents/industry have decided to go with this all-or-nothing "same as a bike" strategy. That's offensive and it's stupid, too.
> 
> -Walt


Now, you're just making sense, Walt.


----------



## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Giant Warp said:


> I've been to Moab twice with my Levo and I can't really understand why the ban. Basically I think it is because the purists got their foot in the door first and started spreading the hate.
> 
> One of the complaints of the purists is "the uphill speed, the uphill speed" to quote one of the ebike moderators of this forum. Moab isn't known for blind corners on mountain bike trails so that rules out that complaint. Another complaint is "ebikes cause erosion". Again, not something related to bikes in Moab.
> 
> ...


Under what regulation are they banned?


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It's BLM and some of those trails are non motorized.


----------



## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Harryman said:


> It's BLM and some of those trails are non motorized.


Ahh. Understood. Thanks!


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Giant Warp said:


> Speed arguments relating to ebikes don't really apply to Moab. So far I haven't seen anyone in this thread rebut this. Some trails are concrete sidewalks, some trails are lined with cactus, some trails have dangerous exposure, many trails were made by mountain bikers for mountain bikers so there is no confrontation with hikers, Class I and II ebikes are for all intensive purposes stealthy. If someone's battery caught fire it wouldn't start a forest fire. The BLM doesn't patrol trails. I am starting to think the BLM code is really much more of "guide line". In Utah, the law says class I and II ebikes are considered bicycles.


Yep...can't cover the trails very effectively...and yep most are guidelines similarly RV's and Commercial Vehicles, very little attention is paid to RV's on the highways, but Commercial Vehicles are closely monitored...


----------



## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Walt said:


> I personally think they should be allowed on Ahab. I don't think it would affect anyone in any meaningful way. You could probably open up a lot of stuff in Moab safely, really.
> 
> But bluntly, the USFS and BLM aren't interested/able to micromanage a lot of this stuff, and the e-bike industry made some HUGE early mistakes ("can go anywhere a bike can go", "legally the same as a bike", "not a motorized vehicle") that have created a lot of ill will. If the advocacy for access had started differently and with a bit of humility, there would still be some purist jerks out there who hate all motors (but drive their Subaru 500 miles to go ride in Moab) but you'd have more support from the middle ground folks like me. But that chance is gone. Now it's going to be a looong uphill climb to get access to any of that stuff.
> 
> ...


"able" Walt, "able" that is key

I don't disagree with the Subaru comment, but you need to spend some time in the bowels of government and what good solid ecologists are up against to really support your argument. It's not an easy row to hoe, trust me. There are plenty of fat, lazy, non-environmental types that would love to latch onto your argument. So easy big fella....


----------



## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

I don't think the issue has anything whatsoever to do with "purists" vs ebikes. The crux of the issue is whether motors that propel a vehicle should be allowed in any form on trails designed for either Multi-use pedestrian and equestrian trails or any trails that require lower traveling speeds for the sake of safety. There's a reason why motorized vehicles are banned on the vast majority of public parks. Distinguishing between a "low power" pedal assist bike motor and one that's been modified to run like a MX bike would be next to impossible once the doors have been opened. So in that respect it makes sense not to immediately open the flood gates to ebikes right away without fully understanding the implications that suck a move would make. That is where companies like Specialized and Scott failed. They market their ebikes as go anywhere regular mtb can go. By doing so, they set unrealistic expectations and the reasons for why threads like this exists. Again, don't blame the "purists" it's about responsible land management.


----------



## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Giant Warp said:


> I had to draw on the picture and save it to keep it right side up.


What's this have to do with ebikes? That bridge is on private land leased to Rave's Zipline. The SlickRock MTB trail actually goes into the private land at some points.


----------



## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

BTW, if I'm not mistaken, you CAN ride your ebike in Moab, you can ride them on the 4x4 trails, just don't get in the way of the 4x4'ers.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

the-one1 said:


> BTW, if I'm not mistaken, you CAN ride your ebike in Moab, you can ride them on the 4x4 trails, just don't get in the way of the 4x4'ers.


That brings up a pretty valid point, why on earth would anyone want to ride a 250w pedal assist bike on the same 4x4 trail with jeeps n trucks? I am not sure I would want to.

If the Proponents of eBikes in Utah want to get more access to MUT in the Moab Area I would suggest they start petitioning the Land Mangers for access and use this as a reason to get access outside of the main 4x4 trails.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> That brings up a pretty valid point, why on earth would anyone want to ride a 250w pedal assist bike on the same 4x4 trail with jeeps n trucks? I am not sure I would want to.


I guess it depends where and how much traffic, there are tons of 4x4/atv trails in my area that are pretty fun and most times I could ride all day on them and not see anyone.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Klurejr said:


> That brings up a pretty valid point, why on earth would anyone want to ride a 250w pedal assist bike on the same 4x4 trail with jeeps n trucks? I am not sure I would want to.
> 
> If the Proponents of eBikes in Utah want to get more access to MUT in the Moab Area I would suggest they start petitioning the Land Mangers for access and use this as a reason to get access outside of the main 4x4 trails.


In the old days before all the new single track was built in Moab, almost all we really had to ride were trails that were motorized, it was still awesome. Here in Colorado, some of the best trails are moto legal, it's hardly a hardship. There's 25,000 miles of moto legal singletrack and dirt roads in Colorado vs 7,000 miles of non motorized.

https://cts.state.co.us/cotrex/desktop/


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Harryman said:


> In the old days before all the new single track was built in Moab, almost all we really had to ride were trails that were motorized, it was still awesome.


This. That's why people were so excited about Sovereign- because it was singletrack, even though moto-legal.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Harryman said:


> In the old days before all the new single track was built in Moab, almost all we really had to ride were trails that were motorized, it was still awesome. Here in Colorado, some of the best trails are moto legal, it's hardly a hardship. There's 25,000 miles of moto legal singletrack and dirt roads in Colorado vs 7,000 miles of non motorized.


Riding an 18 mph ebike vs 70 mph motorcycle on the same single track is not a good match for safety or even make common sense...riding an 18 mph ebike with other mtb's on single track is, very little difference and much safer...and even makes sense...


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Ha, 70mph singletrack. Good one.

Speed differentials do matter. Glad to hear you understand that now.

-Walt


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Riding an 18 mph ebike vs 70 mph motorcycle on the same single track is not a good match for safety or even make common sense...riding an 18 mph ebike with other mtb's on single track is, very little difference and much safer...and even makes sense...


Oh yeah, I've seen hordes of mtb riders mowed down by 70mph motos on Amasa Back and Slickrock. It's a bloodbath out there.


----------



## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

You can always share trails with these guys Giant Warp. Looks like tons of fun!









































Cheers


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Harryman said:


> Oh yeah, I've seen hordes of mtb riders mowed down by 70mph motos on Amasa Back and Slickrock. It's a bloodbath out there.


Are those single track?....Class 1 emtb are better suited for single track with other mtb's...period...safer...makes more sense...and close to same speed...Class 1 emtb are even slower dependent upon who's riding it...I've rode ATV's from California to Arizona to Utah to Colorado to New Mexico to Texas to Oklahoma to Louisiana to Arkansas and I can honestly say riding and emtb with ATV's would not be safe where I have ridden, in fact it would be suicide...all you purist mtb's must think emtb's are as dumb as you all think...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Harryman said:


> Oh yeah, I've seen hordes of mtb riders mowed down by 70mph motos on Amasa Back and Slickrock. It's a bloodbath out there.


Yes, those look like some great trails to ride emtb's on, going to make a trip out there soon for sure....


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes, those look like some great trails to ride emtb's on, going to make a trip out there soon for sure....


Enjoy the ATV and 4x4 exhaust.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

LTZ470 said:


> ...all you purist mtb's must think emtb's are as dumb as you all think...


So far the answer would be yes, yes I do since all the bikers I've *personally* seen while riding having either been old folks on a paved bike trail that were absolutely clueless regarding any type of etiquette and all the rest of the e-bikers I've seen have been on National Forest Service trails where e-bikes are illegal to begin with. Saw another one today at Big Laguna in San Diego County.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> Enjoy the ATV and 4x4 exhaust.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Going to bring the Jeep, ATV's, Polaris RZR and the ebikes...you had better believe I will enjoy it bro..as ole George Strait would say:

I am not gonna lay around and whine and mourn for somebody that done me wrong
Don't think for a minute that I am gonna sit around and sing some old sad song
I believe it's half full not a half empty glass
Every day I wake up knowing it could be my last

[Chorus:]
I ain't here for a long time
I'm here for a good time
So bring on the sunshine, to hell with the red wine
Pour me some moon shine
When I'm gone put it in stone "He left nothing behind"
I ain't here for a long time
I'm here for a good time

Folks are always dreaming about what they like to do but I like to do just what I like
I take the chance, dance the dance, it might be wrong but then again it might be right
There's no way of knowing what tomorrow brings
Life's too short to waste it I say bring on anything

[Chorus:]
I ain't here for a long time
I'm here for a good time
So bring on the sunshine, to hell with the red wine
Pour me some moon shine
When I'm gone put it in stone "He left nothing behind"
I ain't here for a long time
I'm here for a good time
I ain't here for a long time
I'm here for a good time


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I miss when these threads made sense and we talked about things like the top speed of dogs or members of the Dallas Cowboys. 

As an aside, here are the new signs that went up all over around here last week (guess who was asked about e-bikes by the folks in charge?):


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Walt said:


> I miss when these threads made sense and we talked about things like the top speed of dogs or members of the Dallas Cowboys.
> 
> As an aside, here are the new signs that went up all over around here last week (guess who was asked about e-bikes by the folks in charge?):


That's like asking Hillary Clinton about the Trump Administration...lol....


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

That might be, but if you want access, you better be prepared to convince people like me. C'est la vie - we show up to meetings, we dig, we contribute, etc. 

Believe it or not I'm probably one of the MOST e-bike friendly mtb advocacy guys you will meet. But the e-bike industry and riders have completely failed (thus far) to do their homework and bring positive contributions to the table - so this is what you end up getting.

-Walt


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Les le bon ton roule...that's why ebikers will keep poaching...


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> Les le bon ton roule...that's why ebikers will keep poaching...


Which is why they are very likely to fail in trying to become a legitimate user group.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Indeed, that's exactly the kind of response that will ruin things in the long run. Do you remember earlier in the thread where I said I *supported* e-bike access in Moab? How do you think I feel when people say things about how they'll just poach no matter what the rules are?

-Walt


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> Which is why they are very likely to fail in trying to become a legitimate user group.


Agreed, set up for failure from the start....


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Walt said:


> Indeed, that's exactly the kind of response that will ruin things in the long run. Do you remember earlier in the thread where I said I *supported* e-bike access in Moab? How do you think I feel when people say things about how they'll just poach no matter what the rules are?
> 
> -Walt


Agreed Walt, but most folks don't have time for the meetings that work like we do (work overseas and in USA a limited amount of time)...

I do donate to trails access and upkeep and all parks as I want them there for my children and their children when I am gone on the last ride...

But, from the sentiment I see as a WHOLE on here, emtb's don't even stand a chance of getting to ride singletrack with other mtb's...set up for failure from the start...

So, yes I will continue to ride and have a great time...like Mark Twain once said: "Worrying is like paying a debt you do not even owe"....so why worry with it...I'm not to be honest, too much political correctness BS these days in the USA...hope Trump takes back ALL the Federal Lands and opens them up the way they should be open, for any and all to ride and enjoy...paid well over a 1/2 million dollars in taxes in the last few years might as well enjoy some of it, at least the part that is not stuck up a hogs butt and hollered sooooeeey at...


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> Agreed Walt, but most folks don't have time for the meetings that work like we do (work overseas and in USA a limited amount of time)...
> 
> I do donate to trails access and upkeep and all parks as I want them there for my children and their children when I am gone on the last ride...
> 
> ...


Takes them back?

Or gives them to the states?

Because if he does the latter, you can bet much of that formerly federal land will become private land, particularly in the state of UT. And the trails in Moab, which you were formerly free to access on a bicycle, will no longer exist.

In this idyllic fantasy world of yours, what trails that were on public (state) land would be open to ANY kind of access. That won't end well.

To that end, the POTUS cannot unilaterally sell a National Forest to a state. You might make a lot of money, but you don't know much about the law, do you?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## krel (May 9, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> Takes them back?
> 
> Or gives them to the states?


Another way to say "privatized and closed to the public."


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

krel said:


> Another way to say "privatized and closed to the public."


Yeah.

I don't think LTZ knows what he's talking about.

"Takes them back" implies that someone other than the federal government owns federal land.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

"This message is hidden because LTZ470 is on your ignore list."



The cure.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

This is why people in CO roll their eyes at Texans.

LTZ, why don't you take your RZR and drive it down Portal?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> This is why people in CO roll their eyes at Texans.
> 
> LTZ, why don't you take your RZR and drive it down Portal?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Not from Texas...live there, but not from there...have ridden my RZR in quite a few interesting places of my choosing and have thoroughly enjoyed it, still do...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

life behind bars said:


> "This message is hidden because LTZ470 is on your ignore list."
> 
> The cure.


Awesome, and all along I thought you were actually clueless, but you finally caught on...lol....


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> Yeah.
> 
> I don't think LTZ knows what he's talking about.
> 
> ...


You're right, I don't, I just want the land we used to hunt, play, fish, ride, and have fun on freed back up, but that is only a pipe dream, it's only going to get worse, even the lease holders are all so greedy they won't share access with anyone either...lotsa land tied up with only a few folks having access...really sad...we are no longer a free country for sure...


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> You're right, I don't, I just want the land we used to hunt, play, fish, ride, and have fun on freed back up, but that is only a pipe dream, it's only going to get worse, even the lease holders are all so greedy they won't share access with anyone either...lotsa land tied up with only a few folks having access...really sad...we are no longer a free country for sure...


We've probably never had more access, aside from some wilderness trails being closed to bikes.

I regularly fish, hike, run, and ride in several USFS lands. I pay $26 a year for a fishing license in CO. That's the only limitation I have on any form of recreation on federal lands. To include the local shooting range.

If you want less access, yeah, support selling the land to the states. Who, individually, can't afford to maintain them (fire, winter storm damage) and would have to sell them off or lease them. Great plan.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> We've probably never had more access, aside from some wilderness trails being closed to bikes.
> 
> I regularly fish, hike, run, and ride in several USFS lands. I pay $26 a year for a fishing license in CO. That's the only limitation I have on any form of recreation on federal lands. To include the local shooting range.
> 
> ...


I think it would actually allow more unrestricted unlimited access in some states...


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> I think it would actually allow more unrestricted unlimited access in some states...


In some, sure.

Not CA, WY, UT, CO, MT, OR, WA, ID, NV, AZ or WY.

A single large fire would cripple a state if they had to foot the bill.

I'm guessing maintaining trails, and the roads to get to them, would be of little concern if/when the state was under water due to a couple of large fires.

60% of the USFS budget was fire suppression in 2015. That's only going to go up. Increasing temperatures and pine beetle = fires. Which are highly correlated to landslides, flash floods, etc.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Everyone in the US already has essentially unlimited access to public lands. You can go walk on public trails almost anywhere. Uses are restricted not because the land mangers have agendas (there's exceptions ofc), but because there are policies intended to protect and preserve those lands for future generations, while allowing recreation and resource extraction where appropriate. Having worked with the people tasked with that management on the city, state and federal level, and learned all the strict parameters they have to work within, I understand their motivations and decisions even when I disagree with them. Claiming a right to any preferred recreation or discrimination when that recreation is denied will accomplish nothing. 

Land managers aren't idiots, they live in the same world we do, almost all are outdoor enthusiasts, most have or do ride mtbs on a regular basis, so they're not buying into the "it's just a bike!" spin. They recognize that they're different, continuing with that strategy is silly IMO. And, going forward with "meh, I'll just poach" while successful on an individual level, will burn those who actually want to incorporate emtbs in a responsible way.


----------



## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

No. I don't "hate all motors" but I do think non motorized trails shouldn't allow, well, motors. Last time I checked ebikes have motors.


----------



## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

Walt said:


> Indeed, that's exactly the kind of response that will ruin things in the long run. Do you remember earlier in the thread where I said I *supported* e-bike access in Moab? How do you think I feel when people say things about how they'll just poach no matter what the rules are?
> 
> -Walt


lol don't get your pink panties in a twist.

"People will poach no matter what".

That's life son.

If you could stop poaching you'd be an American hero.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

#1ORBUST said:


> lol don't get your pink panties in a twist.
> 
> "People will poach no matter what".
> 
> ...


 I'm told a stick in the front spokes works pretty good. YRMV.


----------



## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> That brings up a pretty valid point, why on earth would anyone want to ride a 250w pedal assist bike on the same 4x4 trail with jeeps n trucks? I am not sure I would want to.
> 
> If the Proponents of eBikes in Utah want to get more access to MUT in the Moab Area I would suggest they start petitioning the Land Mangers for access and use this as a reason to get access outside of the main 4x4 trails.


There are a lot of motorized single track in the Moab area. It's not like there's no place to legally ride an e-bike.


----------



## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

You don't have time to go to meetings or otherwise constructively contribute but you have to to ride?



LTZ470 said:


> Agreed Walt, but most folks don't have time for the meetings that work like we do (work overseas and in USA a limited amount of time)...
> 
> I do donate to trails access and upkeep and all parks as I want them there for my children and their children when I am gone on the last ride...
> 
> ...


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Bluntly, if you care about something, you make the time. 

But you'd rather ride. That's fine. That's what most people do. But it means you get left out of the decision making. 

-Walt


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

There's an old trailbuilders adage that those who show up on a workday get to vote with their shovel, the same principle applies to public meetings. No worries though, I've got you ebikers covered


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

zrm said:


> You don't have time to go to meetings or otherwise constructively contribute but you have to to ride?


Working one month in KSA...back in USA for two weeks maximum...back to KSA to work another month, not going to spend my two weeks in the USA at meetings if I can help it, too many other irons in the fire and then riding/rving/family in between...

Nature of the beast in my business at times...it's all good though, will retire in a few years and then I'll have time to come harass all of you...


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> Working one month in KSA...back in USA for two weeks maximum...back to KSA to work another month, not going to spend my two weeks in the USA at meetings if I can help it, too many other irons in the fire and then riding/rving/family in between...
> 
> Nature of the beast in my business at times...it's all good though, will retire in a few years and then I'll have time to come harass all of you...


I'm regularly out of your battery range. Sorry.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Harryman said:


> There's an old trailbuilders adage that those who show up on a workday get to vote with their shovel, the same principle applies to public meetings. No worries though, I've got you ebikers covered


Ohhh...I'll bet you do!!!...lol...:yikes:


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

zrm said:


> you don't have time to go to meetings or otherwise constructively contribute but you have to to ride?


zing!


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Klurejr said:


> zing!


I'm meetinged out when I get back in the US...riding is a lot more peaceful, enjoyable, and healthy for the soul than meetings or training schools...

Can't wait to hit the trails for sure...going to hit some up in Arkansas this time for sure...


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Those who dig, decide.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Boots on the ground get the vote. Just showing up to anything is half the battle.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

And those who donate? They must get the axe, no vote, no access?...lol...excellent thought process for losing supporters...you guys must be geniuses...


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> And those who donate? They must get the axe, no vote, no access?...lol...excellent thought process for losing supporters...you guys must be geniuses...


Donate? Huh?

You pay taxes like everyone else. Thanks.

The decisions are made by the BLM and USFS. Who react to public user and stakeholder input. From the people that show up to public hearing and trail days.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Braaap! is not considered a vote.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> And those who donate? They must get the axe, no vote, no access?...lol...excellent thought process for losing supporters...you guys must be geniuses...


 Donate to our mt bike chapter, great. And thanks, want the info? The point we are trying to make is that for me, in our state parks and rec areas, resources are limited. Budgets get cut. So the trail needs a reroute, overgrown, to be moved, a boardwalk etc. Words get out. There are lots of trail groups, friends of the forest, hiking groups, etc. The land managers get some work done, we usually provide the PT lumber. Whose face and name do they remember when there is ( wait for it) a meeting of the friends group, advisory board, concerned citizens, access issues etc? And when we propose a new trail? Hmmm. Thats how stuff works. You want to write a check to some office guy for a state park in a large organization? That's MA anyway. How do the trails days go where you are? TX?


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> Donate? Huh?
> 
> You pay taxes like everyone else.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Yep, and then some...lol...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

life behind bars said:


> Braaap! is not considered a vote.


I thought I was considered ignored on your behalf...lol...tells the true under "lying" undermining sentiment of hate on this forum for emtb's...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

JFYGI...https://www.nps.gov/getinvolved/donate.htm...I usually donate through the Parks we camp at...and I do talk to the Rangers and Camp Host and befriend them as well, no issues there either...


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> And those who donate? They must get the axe, no vote, no access?...lol...excellent thought process for losing supporters...you guys must be geniuses...


If you're talking about donating to your local mtb trails org, you're simply "voting" your support for what they already do, you're not driving the bus. You need to show up and take a leadership role to do that.

They accomplish what they do by developing relationships with the land managers, it's just politics. We want something (more trails), they want something (more trails, more maintenance, rogue trails closed, etc) and they're understaffed and underfunded. We arrange to get it paid for if necessary and the work done.

Showing up to a public meeting is important, but you'll only be an individual voice, become part of an organization and you can leverage those voices you represent into much more influence.

Which is where the emtb community needs to go if they want to have influence, either take over an existing org, or start a new one.


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

LTZ470 said:


> JFYGI...https://www.nps.gov/getinvolved/donate.htm...I usually donate through the Parks we camp at...and I do talk to the Rangers and Camp Host and befriend them as well, no issues there either...


While donating to the NPS is a great cause, it has nothing to do with wheels on singletrack, regardless of human or battery power.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> I thought I was considered ignored on your behalf...lol...tells the true under "lying" undermining sentiment of hate on this forum for emtb's...


Do you really not see that you are getting very valuable advice in this thread, particularly from guys like Walt and Harry who have spent decades making exactly what you want to happen happen? Just because you aren't willing to walk the walk or face facts doesn't mean they're full of 'hate' (such an abused term these days it barely means anything anymore).

Sweat equity gets you trails. Time in meetings gets you trails.
Bitching and whining on the internet gets you nada.

Not very complicated


----------



## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yup, this.
> 
> MTBers don't make these rules, dunno why e-bikers care at all what we think or spend time arguing with MTBers about anything. Take your arguments to the proper authorities and just leave mountain bikers out of it, as e-bikes are a totally separate class of vehicle.


We don't care what you think.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> We don't care what you think.


And you're here arguing with people exactly why then?

Cuz of the reason I mentioned in my comment when I just finally gave in and neg-rep'ed you, right?

Yup. That's the one.
:thumbsup:


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Back up your claims of legal or non-legal with links to the specific law for the specific trail you are on:

http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/back-up-your-claims-they-subject-deletion-1051893.html


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

AFAIK the path network (not singletrack) in PC is all on land that is owned outright by the county (or in some cases the city). So not an issue to the best of my knowledge.

On the county and city singletrack trails, e-bikes are officially prohibited:
E-Bikes | Park City, UT

Here's the official code:
https://parkcity.municipalcodeonline.com/book?type=ordinances#name=10-1-4.5_Non-Motorized_Trail_Use

You can view a map (green/gray and yellow/gray dashed are e-bike ok) here:
Mountain Trails Foundation - Map

The e-bike share program is awesome, btw. Just yesterday I was riding back from the farmer's market and saw 2 teenagers and their grandma riding together on the 224 path. They looked like they were having a blast (though to be fair you're supposed to be 18 to rent the bikes).

-Walt


----------



## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

BUMP. Is there anywhere in Moab where e-bike can a ridden? I thought this would be a good place to get my wife into MTB...but she needs an e-bike.

If so, where is a good place to rent? I don't plan to fly with my bike. So I'll be renting a normal trail bike myself.


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

I think Moab cyclery has Levos for rent. Can your wife ride a bike? Moab isn't the best place to learn. You could rent her a regular bike and ride the paved bike paths along the river. They are very nice. If she can ride you can rent the ebike and try the classic Klondike Bluffs trail North of town. It is a 4X4 jeep trail. You bike to the corner of Arches National Park, park your bikes and hike into the park to see the scenery. It has plenty of slick rock. Make sure you bring some kind of lock for your bikes. (just in case). If she is not used to riding a bike then her bum will probably start to hurt before you get to the bluffs. LOL. She can walk any obstacle that looks too hard. Have fun!

Klondike Bluffs Trail in Moab Utah


----------



## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

Giant Warp said:


> I think Moab cyclery has Levos for rent. Can your wife ride a bike? Moab isn't the best place to learn. You could rent her a regular bike and ride the paved bike paths along the river. They are very nice. If she can ride you can rent the ebike and try the classic Klondike Bluffs trail North of town. It is a 4X4 jeep trail. You bike to the corner of Arches National Park, park your bikes and hike into the park to see the scenery. It has plenty of slick rock. Make sure you bring some kind of lock for your bikes. (just in case). If she is not used to riding a bike then her bum will probably start to hurt before you get to the bluffs. LOL. She can walk any obstacle that looks too hard. Have fun!
> 
> Klondike Bluffs Trail in Moab Utah


Thanks for the tips. My wife as basic MTB skills, she can ride smooth singletrack and some rooty stuff, but when it gets steep, she just gives up. That's why I'm thinking e-bike for her. She's not quite there for drops >6" or climbing over technical obstacles.

Dead Horse Point looks like a good fit too. Can someone confirm e-bikes are allowed? MTB project seems to think so.

https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/5083590/dead-horse-point-tour


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

smoothmoose said:


> Thanks for the tips. My wife as basic MTB skills, she can ride smooth singletrack and some rooty stuff, but when it gets steep, she just gives up. That's why I'm thinking e-bike for her. She's not quite there for drops >6" or climbing over technical obstacles.
> 
> Dead Horse Point looks like a good fit too. Can someone confirm e-bikes are allowed? MTB project seems to think so.
> 
> https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/5083590/dead-horse-point-tour


You are going to have to call Dead Horse Point State Park and ask them if ebikes are allowed. It has been reported that they are, but every resource I can find on the internet is ambiguous.

BLM has published this map to help you with ebike trails around Moab, but it is flat wrong about a couple of trails: https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/documents/files/BLMUtahEbikeOpportunities.pdf

It says this: 
"Some areas off limits include: Amasa Back, Bartlett/Jedi Slickrock, Gemini Bridges/Mag 7, Klondike Bluffs, Klonzo/Moab Brands,
Kokopelli, Lower Monitor and Merrimac, Pipe Dream, and Procupine(sic) Rim."

I called BLM in Moab about this statement a few weeks ago. It is bullshit. Amasa Back is a jeep road. Gemini Bridges can be driven in a car. Klondike Bluffs is a jeep road. Some of the trails in the Moab Brands area are open to motorized. Monitor and Merrimack is a jeep trail. Porcupine Rim is a jeep road until the last few miles down to the river. The person on the phone claimed to have no idea where that statement came from, and when pressed, admitted it was wrong. Clearly it was put there by someone who either had **** for brains, or an agenda, and I suspect the latter.


----------



## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> You are going to have to call Dead Horse Point State Park and ask them if ebikes are allowed. It has been reported that they are, but every resource I can find on the internet is ambiguous.
> 
> BLM has published this map to help you with ebike trails around Moab, but it is flat wrong about a couple of trails: https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/documents/files/BLMUtahEbikeOpportunities.pdf
> 
> ...


The Klondike Bluffs area is way more than just a jeep road...quit spreading BS. Trails at both trailheads not only state that e-bikes aren't allowed on alot of the trails, but they went even further to put up signs deliberately stating no-pedal assist, for the thick headed ebike crowd that still thinks ebikes don't have motors.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

watermonkey said:


> The Klondike Bluffs area is way more than just a jeep road...quit spreading BS. Trails at both trailheads not only state that e-bikes aren't allowed on alot of the trails, but they went even further to put up signs deliberately stating no-pedal assist, for the thick headed ebike crowd that still thinks ebikes don't have motors.


The Klondike Bluffs trail is a jeep road. To say that the entire Klondike Bluffs area is off limits to ebikes is what is bullshit, and BLM knows it. I'm guessing that paragraph with "Porcupine" misspelled was slipped in there by Trail Mix. Pretty embarrassing.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Not much of Porcupine is moto legal actually, especially if you start up on Loop rd. I wouldn't recommend it for a beginnner anyway. 

It looks like one trail in the Klondike Bluffs network is emtb legal, its called Klondike Bluffs 4x4. Just search for 4x4/atv/ohv trails, it's pretty easy.


----------



## sunderland56 (Aug 27, 2009)

watermonkey said:


> Trails at both trailheads not only state that e-bikes aren't allowed on alot of the trails, but they went even further to put up signs deliberately stating no-pedal assist, for the thick headed ebike crowd that still thinks ebikes don't have motors.


It's a bit confusing, but there are two riding areas right next to each other; Klondike and Klonzo. Klondike is the old traditional trails; open to motorcycles and bicycles. (Most are singletrack, too narrow for jeeps). Still ridden by a lot of traditional MTBs. Klonzo, on the other hand, are all recently-built trails, and were built specifically with non-motorized funds, so they can't allow e-bikes.

Other areas open to e-bikes in and around Moab are: Slickrock (the trail that started it all); Gemini Bridges Road (another old traditional ride); and Dead Horse Point. (Yes, trails at DHSP are currently open to e-bikes).


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

sunderland56 said:


> It's a bit confusing, but there are two riding areas right next to each other; Klondike and Klonzo. Klondike is the old traditional trails; open to motorcycles and bicycles. (Most are singletrack, too narrow for jeeps). Still ridden by a lot of traditional MTBs. Klonzo, on the other hand, are all recently-built trails, and were built specifically with non-motorized funds, so they can't allow e-bikes.
> 
> Other areas open to e-bikes in and around Moab are: Slickrock (the trail that started it all); Gemini Bridges Road (another old traditional ride); and Dead Horse Point. (Yes, trails at DHSP are currently open to e-bikes).


And Poison Spider, Amasa Back, Hurrah Pass, Monitor and Merrimac, Moab Rim, Onion Creek/Rose Garden/Top of the World, Back of Behind, Pritchett Canyon, Hey Joe Canyon, Seven Mile/Little Canyon Rim...NONE of which are mentioned on the worthless BLM "e-bike opportunity" map put out by BLM itself. Instead, they tell people to go to Hook and Ladder (20 miles south of Moab), or hilariously, White Wash, which is a freaking giant sand dune area totally inappropriate for a mountain bike unless it is a fat bike with 4"+ tires, and which is an hour from Moab anyway.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> . Instead, they tell people to go to Hook and Ladder (20 miles south of Moab), or hilariously, White Wash, which is a freaking giant sand dune area totally inappropriate for a mountain bike unless it is a fat bike with 4"+ tires, and which is an hour from Moab anyway.


They aren't talking about mountain bikes, they are talking about ebikes, which would be appropriate on sand dunes. I think that sounds like a lot of fun.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

sfgiantsfan said:


> They aren't talking about mountain bikes, they are talking about ebikes, which would be appropriate on sand dunes. I think that sounds like a lot of fun.


White Wash is the finest sand imaginable. It would suck on *any* MTB short of a fat bike. Even dirt bikes bog down, especially if there hasn't been any recent rain.


----------



## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

If you ride a mechanized bicycle and wear store bought clothes and shoes your no purist, your a hypocrite. Your clearly one sighted and don’t recognize the difference between mechanized assistance to motorized power. But those who ride modern Composits, rubbers, metals, and endorse the latest technology in mechanized bikes and claim purist. 
Walk the land like the Indians did 200yrs ago and then you have the right to be a purist. 
Until then class 1 ebike and top line bike are equally mechanized. 
Top conditioned cyclist can produce 450-500w of power though mechanized drive line, average human with 250w e assist can produce 400-550w. Hmm that math equals. So the only true difference is average bike weight goes up 25lbs about the same difference between a day hiker and a back packer. 
Bottom line, they just want less people on the trail and come up with BS to make it happen. Pure selfishness by hypocrites.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

TNTE3 said:


> Until then class 1 ebike and top line bike are equally mechanized. Top conditioned cyclist can produce 450-500w of power though mechanized drive line, average human with 250w e assist can produce 400-550w. Hmm that math equals.


Not really.

https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/exceeding-the-250w-peak-motor-power-output.1300/


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

TNTE3 said:


> Bottom line, they just want less people on the trail and come up with BS to make it happen. Pure selfishness by hypocrites.


Says the owner of TnT Performance Engineering. I guess ice bikes should also have access.


----------



## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

TNTE3 said:


> Until then class 1 ebike and top line bike are equally mechanized.


If this were true, then they would race the same class, right? Please point me to that race.

I have nothing against e-bikes and ride with them on our local trails. Just don't say they are equally mechanized. They are not an no amount of hype can change that simple fact.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

TNTE3 said:


> If you ride a mechanized bicycle and wear store bought clothes and shoes your no purist, your a hypocrite. Your clearly one sighted and don't recognize the difference between mechanized assistance to motorized power. But those who ride modern Composits, rubbers, metals, and endorse the latest technology in mechanized bikes and claim purist.
> Walk the land like the Indians did 200yrs ago and then you have the right to be a purist.
> Until then class 1 ebike and top line bike are equally mechanized.
> Top conditioned cyclist can produce 450-500w of power though mechanized drive line, average human with 250w e assist can produce 400-550w. Hmm that math equals. So the only true difference is average bike weight goes up 25lbs about the same difference between a day hiker and a back packer.
> Bottom line, they just want less people on the trail and come up with BS to make it happen. Pure selfishness by hypocrites.


 I only ride old school. Iron frame, wood rims, and old rubber hoses for tires. Dude. And SS. Bikes and e bikes are the same? Hmmmm. It's the motor. Keep dreaming. And check yur facts. Dude. Land mangers and rules makers think otherwise.


----------



## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

why do people take one portion on your comment and ignore the rest of the post. 
If i take the same closed mind vision as others. Pro cyclists vs working class rec riders the different power output should ban the pro riders from public trails as there capable of twice peak power output and 3 times average power over 30min continueous. 
Chazpat, i make a living building high performance motorized vehicles so i have clearly different understanding between motorized and assisted. 
If you can sit and it goes with twist of a hand, or pedal at 20rpm with less then 40w human intput and it climbs up a hill or goes over 15mph then i classify it as motorized. 
On a 6% grade in high power mode with 50w human power best i can get is 6mph on either model of my ebike. Fantic with s drive and bulls with T drive


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

TNTE3 said:


> Top conditioned cyclist can produce 450-500w of power


Not for very long.

An average cyclist is probably closer to 150 watts. Electric bikes and bicycles aren't equally mechinized, obviously, and stating that fact has nothing to do with being a purist.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

TNTE3 said:


> If you can sit and it goes with twist of a hand, or pedal at 20rpm with less then 40w human intput and it climbs up a hill or goes over 15mph then i classify it as motorized.


You could do that on a Class 1 ebike with a cadence sensor activating the motor, not a torque sensor like on your bikes. You can ghost pedal on a PAS bike with cadence sensing, since it is only counting your pedal revs, it has no idea how much effort you're putting in.

A crude kit bike, but it'll give you the idea. FF to 1:32.






While your ebikes are Class 1, they aren't representative of what's allowed under the law, which is 3x more powerful than yours. I've got no issue with allowing emtbs in Moab, but I don't think the argument that they're no different than a bike is going to be a winning one.


----------



## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Not for very long.
> 
> An average cyclist is probably closer to 150 watts. Electric bikes and bicycles aren't equally mechinized, obviously, and stating that fact has nothing to do with being a purist.


Your comment has merit and not hate. 
But I'm not a top athlete by any means but i can climb a 2.3 mile hill at 4,320ft elevation and average 230w for the climb on my 20mile rides i average 160w over 2+hr time period, So i know a top athlete can do much better as I'm in my mid 50's. Haryman, i believe hub drives are motorized, as there not connected to human pedal speeds. They sense pedal rpm but not human input in tq. 
My only complaint is 250w pedal assist is to close to any common mechanized bike and shouldn't be treated any differently then a acustic bike as the assistance is connected directly to your feet. 
Anything that has direct wheel power isn't assisted and leaves way to much gray area and allows for modifications that by far exceed human capability. With pedelic you can't go faster then human can pedal in pedal rpm and connected to drive line designed for human only power levels,


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

TNTE3 said:


> Your comment has merit and not hate.
> But I'm not a top athlete by any means but i can climb a 2.3 mile hill at 4,320ft elevation and average 230w for the climb on my 20mile rides i average 160w over 2+hr time period, So i know a top athlete can do much better as I'm in my mid 50's. Haryman, i believe hub drives are motorized, as there not connected to human pedal speeds. They sense pedal rpm but not human input in tq.
> My only complaint is 250w pedal assist is to close to any common mechanized bike and shouldn't be treated any differently then a acustic bike as the assistance is connected directly to your feet.
> Anything that has direct wheel power isn't assisted and leaves way to much gray area and allows for modifications that by far exceed human capability. With pedelic you can't go faster then human can pedal in pedal rpm and connected to drive line designed for human only power levels,


You didn't pay attention to Harryman's post apparently.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Class 1 laws don't differentiate between mid drives, hub drives, what sort of PAS is in play or if it's 250w nominal, 350w, 500w or 750w. If you are advocating for class 1 ebikes to be allowed somewhere, any or all of those would be allowed. Deciding under what arbitrary power level a motor is no longer a motor and how you turn it on matters, only happens on the internet.


----------



## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> You didn't pay attention to Harryman's post apparently.


I did pay good attention to his post. 
What i distinctly said was no matter how you modify the system it's still connected to the cranks, and you can't exceed human pedal rpm. But as i wrote this i realized something. 
There is a sprag clutch in crank set so the sprocket could exceed pedal rpm. 
But your still limited to 250w and 90kn TQ, that's not gonna get you very fast and every time you stop pedalling to avoid pedal strike it will shut down. 
But none of them come that way and even with that modification the bike won't climb much of a hill without human power. 
I had a class 3 ebike with 350w and 28mph cut and i couldn't sustain 28mph on level ground with 140w human power with 2.35 tires on black top. 
26mph is all i could manage for 12 mile flat ground. 
So my point is even with the speed cut modified the speeds are not that of a hub drive or true motorized bike. 
But if we talking 750-1000w+ hub drives i have to agree with every ebike hater, they dont belong on mtb trails anywhere.
I had a 1500w hub drive DH bike conversion and it's a motorcycle with pedals. Slow motorcycle granted but it's not a bicycle in any way other then it has pedals for foot pegs it's downhill speed exceeds by far what any pedal bike can reach. 
My DH bike my fastest recorded max speed is 52mph, my enduro ebike 47, my old hub drive 66mph. All those speeds where on the same trail.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

TNTE3 said:


> With pedelic you can't go faster then human can pedal in pedal rpm and connected to drive line designed for human only power levels,


That is a straight up falsehood. I have witnesses a man on a class 1 Pedelec move uphill on a trail at more than twice the speed I can manage when I push myself really hard. When speaking with him he admitted it was super fun and super fast, way faster than he could ever go on his pedal bike.


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

The bike manufactures that seem to be making all this money developing and selling ebikes don't seem to care what trails are open or closed. Phone the company that made your bike and ask them to lobby for access.
Or do these company's want the profit but are too afraid to make a stand?


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

TNTE3 said:


> I did pay good attention to his post.
> What i distinctly said was no matter how you modify the system it's still connected to the cranks, and you can't exceed human pedal rpm. But as i wrote this i realized something.
> There is a sprag clutch in crank set so the sprocket could exceed pedal rpm.
> But your still limited to 250w and 90kn TQ, that's not gonna get you very fast and every time you stop pedalling to avoid pedal strike it will shut down.
> ...


Are you proposing that only 250w middrives are allowed on non moto singletrack, when Class 1 lumps 750w anyPAS and anydrive in together?


----------



## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

Harry, I’m saying it’s 100% wrong to lump them all into class one. Class 1 should be mid drive max 250w.
And that shouldn’t have any limitations as to where it can be ridden. 
I personally believe they have the classification of ebikes as messed up as humanly possible 
I believe the class should be something like this. 
Class 1 mid drive, 250w, 100kn tq max. 20mph cut
Class 2 mid drive 750w, 150kn tq 28mph
Class 3 hub drives, up to 1500w 175kn tq 35mph
Anything over 1500w is a motorcycle in all aspects


----------



## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> That is a straight up falsehood. I have witnesses a man on a class 1 Pedelec move uphill on a trail at more than twice the speed I can manage when I push myself really hard. When speaking with him he admitted it was super fun and super fast, way faster than he could ever go on his pedal bike.


I think my word choice left a gap in my intentional quote. Class 1 will allow a human to climb faster with assist then a conventional bike up to 15mph. 
What i was trying to say is, the motor doesn't go faster then the human input as it's connected to the pedals, and to standard mountain bike chain and sprockets. 
Hub drives leave to much open for easily exceeding human input as there power the wheel directly. 
Example my Fantic has 1x drive with 32t x 11/50 my Jekyll has 32t x 11/50. My bulls has a 32 x 11/46. 
My point i was trying to make is the drive line is the same as most high end bikes and if the bike was modified with the speed cut bypassed with 250w your not going to exceed the speeds of a high end mtb. No question the average climbing speed will increase 20%. 
Here my test data. I have 5 and 11 mile loop i do 3-5 Times a week for past 6yrs on my Jekyll i average 5.8 mph on 11 mile loop, in high power mode i average 9.6mph on same loop. Max speed Jekyll 38.3 mph max speed on ebike 36.9 mph. On any down hill less then 6% the cannondale acc faster above assisted speeds. I also did that same loop on my evo45 that was class3 with 28mph cut and it was actually slower then the class 1. Even with 28mph cut it wouldn't match the speed i set on Jekyll.

Hopefully that helped clear up what i was i was trying to say. 
I am not a hub drive hater, i just have owned one and they feel much more like a motorcycle, and there speeds convincingly faster then i can pedal and exceeded my obtainable pedal speeds.

my draw to the ebike, i climb like I'm on a $12,000 ultra light gravel bike with the comfort and the DH ability of a 180 travel 2.8 tire bike. Best of both worlds


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

TNTE3 said:


> Harry, I'm saying it's 100% wrong to lump them all into class one. Class 1 should be mid drive max 250w.
> And that shouldn't have any limitations as to where it can be ridden.
> I personally believe they have the classification of ebikes as messed up as humanly possible
> I believe the class should be something like this.
> ...


I would change Class 1 to be 250w but a max assist speed of 10mph. Of course that does not fix the fact that the bikes can be modified out of whatever the class definition is.



TNTE3 said:


> I think my word choice left a gap in my intentional quote. Class 1 will allow a human to climb faster with assist then a conventional bike up to 15mph.
> What i was trying to say is, the motor doesn't go faster then the human input as it's connected to the pedals, and to standard mountain bike chain and sprockets.
> Hub drives leave to much open for easily exceeding human input as there power the wheel directly.
> Example my Fantic has 1x drive with 32t x 11/50 my Jekyll has 32t x 11/50. My bulls has a 32 x 11/46.
> ...


I see what you are saying.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Limit class one to 150 watts.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Limits are worthless when anybody can easily hack their way to a new class without any way of enforcing or even differentiating the classes.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Limits are worthless when anybody can easily hack their way to a new class without any way of enforcing or even differentiating the classes.


Agree, that's why they should be segregated to motorized trail use.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

TNTE3 said:


> Harry, I'm saying it's 100% wrong to lump them all into class one. Class 1 should be mid drive max 250w.
> And that shouldn't have any limitations as to where it can be ridden.
> I personally believe they have the classification of ebikes as messed up as humanly possible
> I believe the class should be something like this.
> ...


While I agree that People4bikes (the bike industry) screwed the pooch for emtbs on their Classes, which are a mashup of what has been successful in the EU and what already existed in the US, that ship has sailed in Utah and eventually every other state. Good luck trying to create new ones.

FWIW, there are already EU legal (250w/15.5mph) emtbs out with over your limit in torque, at 120nm.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/10/haibikes-new-flyon-electric-bicycles-powerful/

Same motor at a higher voltage will give you 920w nominal as well.

https://pedelec-elektro-fahrrad.de/...tzing-evolution-fuer-2019-vorgestellt/175786/

We're starting to see high powered middrives appear now that they're are becoming the standard if you want to climb on your ebike. Like this:

https://electricbike-blog.com/2017/...g-the-bafang-ultra-max-mid-drive-ebike-drive/


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Delete.


----------



## kraisydave (Mar 12, 2017)

Mr. Harryman,

Respectfully, the ship has not sailed in Utah. I have been traveling all over the country racing my ebike in non-ebike classes in many series. Very politely I request permission from the land managers, race promoters and whoever else is required. Upon hearing of my disabilities, previous race records, and events I participated in, no one has turned me away. Just this weekend I raced in the Scott Enduro in Park City of all places. 
My disabilities generally prohibit completion of the transfers between stages. Downhill I mostly do fine on my own without assist unless an uphill appears. Over the last few months of racing I have slightly progressed from back of the pack to about midpack. While at the EWS events I tend to be in the back again. 20 years ago I was an expert racer before military service.
My reason for posting is in hopes that people will not give up on ebikes entirely. I fully understand this is a sensitive area and full of fears about what may happen to the trails in both access and perceived damage. But please consider people like me who get on these bikes and feel whole again.
I would respectfully argue that my results show a store bought e-mountain bike only makes me an average rider. My hope is that this may pave a way for non-motorized trail access as appropriate.
My time has been spent speaking to everyone who shows interest, advocating to promoters, speaking in front of city councils, speaking with disabled Veterans and other similar groups, acquiring land for future trails, and even slinging a shovel at local trails builds as much as my abilities allow.
Not only do I have my race results, but I have also recorded all my rides. My hope is to build a case showing that an ebike for disabled people can be appropriate likely through the ADA. Please don't forget about this segment of the population.

Thank you for reading,
Dave


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I've yet to meet anyone who objects to a legitimately disabled person using an ebike to get out on the trail. Or a land manager for that matter. But that's an extremely small portion of the emtb riding population, and changes nothing regarding the existing state laws for able bodied riders.


----------



## kraisydave (Mar 12, 2017)

But it does.... I enforced back country law for many years in various locations. Laws written quickly tend to have unintended consequences. Putting up a no ebike sign is for everyone. It is not often that I see written exception for disabled ebikes specifically labeled. One city near me has no exceptions noted while another does. Based on everything I have found in law BLM and other Fed lands make no expectations.
And yes, I've met those people who do object. It's not usually a fun experience.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

kraisydave said:


> But it does.... I enforced back country law for many years in various locations. Laws written quickly tend to have unintended consequences. Putting up a no ebike sign is for everyone. It is not often that I see written exception for disabled ebikes specifically labeled. One city near me has no exceptions noted while another does. Based on everything I have found in law BLM and other Fed lands make no expectations.
> And yes, I've met those people who do object. It's not usually a fun experience.


You make broad assumptions that all trail networks are suitable for A.D.A. access, they aren't. Nor are they required to be.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

life behind bars said:


> You make broad assumptions that all trail networks are suitable for A.D.A. access, they aren't. Nor are they required to be.


This. I'm in Utah. I manage trails. We are a no ebike area. If you are legitimately handicapped and must ride an ebike, you get to do that on motorized access trails. Our trails do not have to meet ada rules because there are similar access areas available. As trail stewards we do not have the time or energy to chase down every ebiker poaching our trails and then ask them if they are handicapped (which you can't do). So, banned.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> You make broad assumptions that all trail networks are suitable for A.D.A. access, they aren't. Nor are they required to be.


You don't have to make the a trail accessible, but that doesn't mean you get to tell disabled people that they're not allowed on 'regular' trails either, unless specific assessments have been made and filed showing that a particular trail is not not suitable for a particular type of OPDMD.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

kraisydave said:


> But it does.... I enforced back country law for many years in various locations. Laws written quickly tend to have unintended consequences. Putting up a no ebike sign is for everyone. It is not often that I see written exception for disabled ebikes specifically labeled. One city near me has no exceptions noted while another does. Based on everything I have found in law BLM and other Fed lands make no expectations.
> And yes, I've met those people who do object. It's not usually a fun experience.


The new Class 1-3 laws were written with the intent on making it easier for land managers to allow ebikes on their bike paths, which for various reasons, was more difficult in the past. For that, it has been very successful. These classifications also make it easier for land managers to allow them on singletrack if they so choose. Some do, most don't.

Ebikes aren't classified by anyone as OPMD that I know of, although, as you've found, many will look the other way and let you ride if you have a disability. On the books though, the law doesn't make allowances for the level of a persons ability, you'd have to lobby to have ebikes classified as a OPMD on the federal level. It's an ADA issue, not a DOT vehicle classification issue.

My point that the ship has sailed is that having been involved with ebike legislation on the state and local level, I can attest that once passed, no one wants to spend the significant amount of time and money required to amend it.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Dave, Park City specifically exempts disabled riders. You are always welcome on our trails. 

Deer Valley owns and maintains their own stuff and AFAIK they don't have an e-bike policy. Glad you had fun at the enduro!

I agree that the signage should be better to reflect this but it is what it is. 

-Walt


----------



## kraisydave (Mar 12, 2017)

Walt,

Thank you very much for that info. Very helpful. My intent is to do the right thing.

Lifebehindbars, I'm not sure how to help you. You misread often.

Silentfoe,
ADA access and making something an ADA assist device are very different things. It why downhill wheelchairs and sit skies exist. It is to bad that a trail manager is so quick to exclude disabled people. Just like not all able-bodied people can ride your trails, there are disabled that cannot either. I happen to be on that can safely and responsibly with the right level of assist. Whether or not you have time to chase people around is irrelevant.

Thank you,
Dave


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I think you would get permission basically anywhere from any land manager if you've got a disability that otherwise prevents you from riding. I can't even imagine that being controversial.

-Walt


----------



## sunderland56 (Aug 27, 2009)

Moab actually has over 50 miles of singletrack open to e-bikes. Open to all riders, handicapped or not. So the title of this thread is incorrect.


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

And that permission is nothing more than conditional kindness with no basis in regulation as Harry correctly pointed out ebikes fail to meet the definition of OPMD and in the context of the FS TMR which governs the management basis for the majority of nonmotorized trails in the US even OPMD have restrictions on where they can be used, typically restricted from singletrack.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> You don't have to make the a trail accessible, but that doesn't mean you get to tell disabled people that they're not allowed on 'regular' trails either,


I don't think anyone even suggested it.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Velocipedist said:


> And that permission is nothing more than conditional kindness with no basis in regulation as Harry correctly pointed out ebikes fail to meet the definition of OPMD and in the context of the FS TMR which governs the management basis for the majority of nonmotorized trails in the US even OPMD have restrictions on where they can be used, typically restricted from singletrack.


E-bikes definitely meet the definition of OPDMDs, as do ATVs, dirt bikes, Segways, golf carts...pretty much any vehicle out there this side of helicopters and cruise ships. The Feds (as they seem to love to do) exempt themselves from the rules everyone else has to follow, but on most trails, e-bikes definitely fit well within OPDMD guidelines. If I were covered under ADA guidelines and someone denied my access on an e-bike, I'd likely show up the next day to hit the same trail on an ATV. 

"any mobility device powered by batteries, fuel, or
other engines--whether or not designed primarily for use by individuals with mobility
disabilities--that is used by individuals with mobility disabilities for the purpose of locomotion,
including golf cars, electronic personal assistance mobility devices (EPAMDs), such as the
Segway® PT, or any mobility device designed to operate in areas without defined pedestrian
routes, but that is not a wheelchair within the meaning of this section."

Of course, they can be disallowed based on the assessment factors which are clearly spelled out, as can any class of vehicle. I would think it's unlikely that you could ban them as OPDMDs without banning bicycles from the same trails though, based on the assessment factors.

https://extension.unh.edu/resources/files/Resource002519_Rep3732.pdf

http://www.dcr.virginia.gov/recreational-planning/document/doj-ada-rule.pdf


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

kraisydave said:


> I have been traveling all over the country racing my ebike in non-ebike classes in many series. Very politely I request permission from the land managers, race promoters and whoever else is required. Upon hearing of my disabilities, previous race records, and events I participated in, no one has turned me away. Just this weekend I raced in the Scott Enduro in Park City of all places.
> My disabilities generally prohibit completion of the transfers between stages. Downhill I mostly do fine on my own without assist unless an uphill appears. Over the last few months of racing I have slightly progressed from back of the pack to about midpack.


So when you enter these races, are you actually competing for points and a trophy, or are you just doing it for fun?

Even with a disability, it seems bizarre to me that a racing series would allow for someone to ride it in with a motor assisting them.

Do you mind describing your disability?


----------



## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

rlee said:


> The bike manufactures that seem to be making all this money developing and selling ebikes don't seem to care what trails are open or closed. Phone the company that made your bike and ask them to lobby for access.
> Or do these company's want the profit but are too afraid to make a stand?


Yes, and they spent their ebike advocacy $ converting people4bikes to manufacturers4ebikesales and getting IMBA to embrace emtb($).


----------



## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

life behind bars said:


> Limit class one to 150 watts.


A friend wisely noted that if it were really intended to be mere assist, we wouldn't be talking about 150 watts of assist, we'd be talking about limiting the assist to say, 20% of the riders power output. So instead of that up to 750W we see advertised, we'd be looking at more like a 50W assist to a 250W producing rider.


----------



## ironhippy (Nov 21, 2017)

kraisydave said:


> I happen to be on that can safely and responsibly with the right level of assist.


One of my concerns with e-bikes and people who need them, is what happens if the ebike breaks?
Are you now going to have to call search and rescue because your battery died?

If my bike breaks, I am prepared to walk out from wherever I am. That could mean an hour, it could mean all night, however that's on me. I do not think it's appropriate for me to call search and rescue because of a mechanical failure.

If I injure myself, well that's a different story and I'd be more inclined to call for search and rescue if walking is not an option.

(I don't want to rely on search and rescue for anything, just thinking of worst case scenarios)


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

ironhippy said:


> One of my concerns with e-bikes and people who need them, is what happens if the ebike breaks?
> Are you now going to have to call search and rescue because your battery died?
> 
> If my bike breaks, I am prepared to walk out from wherever I am. That could mean an hour, it could mean all night, however that's on me. I do not think it's appropriate for me to call search and rescue because of a mechanical failure.
> ...


 I feel the same way. But lets take out most people on this forum because they are mountain bikers first and probably share the same thoughts. If you also take out people with a handicap because they will have a back up plan. They either have someone to phone or don't go out alone.
What about the new ebike rider who has never mountain biked? A ebike allows you to go further into the wilderness where a new mountain biker shouldn't be. A new mountain biker doesn't have the skills or knowledge, let alone trail etiquette. Is that a reason why they are Banned? No resources to rescue stranded ebike rental customers?
Even in places like Sedona where the old guys rent a bike to travel around on the roads, its a problem. We have been riding enough to know where our place in the food chain is on the streets, and it is pretty low. Someone who doesn't ride is a accident waiting to happen. At least with a bicycle (it is what they are called) they don't get very far for the first while.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rlee said:


> What about the new ebike rider who has never mountain biked? A ebike allows you to go further into the wilderness where a new mountain biker shouldn't be. A new mountain biker doesn't have the skills or knowledge, let alone trail etiquette. Is that a reason why they are Banned? No resources to rescue stranded ebike rental customers?
> Even in places like Sedona where the old guys rent a bike to travel around on the roads, its a problem. We have been riding enough to know where our place in the food chain is on the streets, and it is pretty low. Someone who doesn't ride is a accident waiting to happen. At least with a bicycle (it is what they are called) they don't get very far for the first while.


This is what happens with new eBike riders:
http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/ebikes-speeding-popular-san-clemente-trail-1086485.html


----------



## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

With the popularity of ebikes booming, pretty soon there won't be any new ebikers.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

figofspee said:


> With the popularity of ebikes booming, pretty soon there won't be any new ebikers.


And they still won't have most mtb trails available to them for riding.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

figofspee said:


> With the popularity of ebikes booming, pretty soon there won't be any new ebikers.


Which would mean ebiking would quickly die out.


----------



## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

chazpat said:


> Which would mean ebiking would quickly die out.


Sure buddy.


----------



## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> And they still won't have most mtb trails available to them for riding.


And you will still be king of mtbr


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

figofspee said:


> And you will still be king of mtbr


mom let you out of the basement?


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

figofspee said:


> Sure buddy.


So you think golf would have lasted if there weren't any new golfers?


----------



## ctxcrossx (Jan 13, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> So when you enter these races, are you actually competing for points and a trophy, or are you just doing it for fun?
> 
> Even with a disability, it seems bizarre to me that a racing series would allow for someone to ride it in with a motor assisting them.
> 
> Do you mind describing your disability?


I was curious about this as well. I can understand riding the course and riding the same day as the race participants, but not placing, earning points, or winning any medals, trophies, or prizes.. I don't think it's reasonable to be competing with people without motors. Being in the back of the pack or mid Pac does not justify this inclusion in the race. Even if the racers or race organizer didn't object, I'm shocked that the race officials would allow something like that. It seems black and white to me.


----------



## moabmark (Sep 19, 2018)

????









Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

moabmark said:


> ????


Has nothing to do with access.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

sunderland56 said:


> Moab actually has over 50 miles of singletrack open to e-bikes. Open to all riders, handicapped or not. So the title of this thread is incorrect.


- All trails at Dead Horse Point
- Sovereign
- Parts of the Trans La Sal Trail on the west and south sides of the mountains

I don't know of any other "singletrack", but it is all semantics anyway since most "singletrack" in Moab is so blown out it isn't really singletrack any more.

As for trails that are not "singletrack":

- Slickrock
- Poison Spider
- Amasa Back
- Hurrah Pass/Jackson's
- Gemini Bridges/Bull Canyon/Golden Crack
- Moab Rim
- Spring Canyon/Hey Joe
- Kane Creek
- The "traditional" Porcupine Rim until you get to the motorized closure.
- Klondike Bluff
- Flat Pass
- Pritchett Canyon
- La Sal Pass
- Monitor and Merrimack
- Hook and Ladder
- Onion Creek
- A lot of the Kokopelli Trail

That is a lot of riding, it would take weeks to do it all. Then you have trails that are traditionally motorized, like Hell's Revenge, Fins 'n Things, Little Canyon, 10 Mile Wash, etc. A lot of these trails are avoided on an MTB because of sand, but an ebike with Plus-sized tires make them really fun.

If you don't mind driving, there are the Rabbit Valley/Zion Curtain Trails on the Colorado/Utah border, miles of trails over in the San Rafael Swell, and nice singletrack down in the Abajo Mountains by Monticello.

Moab is eMTB heaven. The bike shops were all playing a game of Chicken with each other to see who would be the first to crack and start renting eMTBs, and it looks like Poison Spider wins. They now rent Trek eMTBs.

I have to say, one of the stupidest ebike bans I've ever seen, outside of the White Rim Trail, is Moab's ban on ebikes on the PAVED bike path from town along Highway 191. WTF do they think people should do, ride on 191? Seriously, you can hit 35 MPH coasting a regular bike down that path, what are they afraid of?

Moab has been invaded by Boulder/California loons. The ebike hysteria there is just the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## moabmark (Sep 19, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> Has nothing to do with access.


How do you figure? Both the forest service and BLM are stating they are motorized. Congress disagrees. I think the forest service and the BLM have overstepped their bounds but we will see.









Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Oh gawd not this ridiculous angle AGAIN...

The CPSA has absolutely no say whatsoever as far as trail access, just like a state's MV code doesn't apply to the overwhelming majority of anything remotely trail-like.


----------



## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

If the motor isn't powered by glucolysis or beta oxydation of ketones supporting oxidative phosphorylation into fuel for motoneuron regulated actin and myosin contraction run by a sentient control system with two arms and two legs....then it should be restricted to motorcycle trails and violaters should be fined a hefty sum along with the loss of their moped. Which should be sold and the funds used to support human powered trail maintenance.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Or.. maybe we could fund some dictionaries so we know what the hell your talking about! I’m guessing the same thing happens when I ride my ebike. I can’t imagine what happens to a pro moto x guy doing a 30 minute moto with hr pegged the entire time. That lazy motorcycle guy!


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Ironic that the e-motor guys insist on drawing parallels to motorcycles.


----------



## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

life behind bars said:


> Ironic that the e-motor guys insist on drawing parallels to motorcycles.


and mentions a need for dictionaries.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I’m just a dumb ebiker that also likes to ride motorcycles. Have I sinned in some way? I guess I don’t measure up to your statuses. I’m cool with change. BRAAAP!


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> I'm just a dumb ebiker that also likes to ride motorcycles. Have I sinned in some way? I guess I don't measure up to your statuses. I'm cool with change. BRAAAP!


Yeah, we get that you may be intellectually slow. Land managers and anti's love that "braaap" **** too, they bring it up at meetings all the time, equate it to I.C.E. bikes all the time.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

life behind bars said:


> Yeah, we get that you may be intellectually slow. Land managers and anti's love that "braaap" **** too, they bring it up at meetings all the time, equate it to I.C.E. bikes all the time.


Funny, me saying BRAAP on a website has jack **** on USFS changing their views. If you believe it does, well that's pathetic.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Gutch said:


> Funny, me saying BRAAP on a website has jack **** on USFS changing their views. If you believe it does, well that's pathetic.


No, but it would certainly be quite useful for an anti-bike organization looking for things to use against us when it comes to access issues.

If you believe they won't, you are naive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Do you live in a weed smoking state?


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Gutch said:


> Do you live in a weed smoking state?


Nope. But I've seen dossiers compiled by antis looking for anything that undercuts the idea of mountain biking as quiet recreation, and this is prime fodder for them.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Gutch, dude, I love you, but... what you post here is going to be here forever. 

If you want responsible e-bike riders to have trail access to anything but bike parks in 20 years, relax and stop it with the braap stuff. You'll be the first hit on google for the anti-e-bike (or just anti-bike) grannies looking for town hall meeting ammunition.

-Walt


----------



## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

During practice at Kamikazi games i heard at least 20 DH riders say braaaapp as they wheelies off the mammoth waterfall. 
They where not on ebikes. 
Enduro and DH acoustic bikes. Aka 100% human braaapp power


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

TNTE3 said:


> During practice at Kamikazi games i heard at least 20 DH riders say braaaapp as they wheelies off the mammoth waterfall.
> They where not on ebikes.
> Enduro and DH acoustic bikes. Aka 100% human braaapp power


I'm not sure that I'd use shuttle or chair lift riders as an example as an example of human-powered recreation...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

The first time I heard “Braap” was in a Chad Reed and Josh Hansen commercial, years ago. I don’t ride my emtb on a moto X track, as it’s not a motorcycle. As far as my signature, that’s inline with the commercial and special for my boy LBB. I’ll change it to appease all the John Denver fans though..


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Le Duke said:


> I'm not sure that I'd use shuttle or chair lift riders as an example as an example of human-powered recreation...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But are they not mtbrs? Last time I entered a bike shop I saw XC bikes, downhill bikes, Enduro bikes, ebikes and road bikes. All forms of human recreation- for fun. Ebikes are at The kamikaze games. 3yrs earlier, I don't believe you could have made that claim. At what point do you not accept that they are part of the cycling industry? It's very physical doing human powered DH runs. I know you know this.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Gutch said:


> But are they not mtbrs? Last time I entered a bike shop I saw XC bikes, downhill bikes, Enduro bikes, ebikes and road bikes. All forms of human recreation- for fun. Ebikes are at The kamikaze games. 3yrs from earlier, I don't believe you could have made that claim. At what point do you not accept that they are part of the cycling industry? It's very physical doing human powered DH runs. I know you know this.


Are you're being willfully ignorant, or do you genuinely not understand that a shuttle or chairlift are gas or electrically powered devices?

Do you not understand that tying bicycles to motors, in the minds of some very well connected, influential and moneyed people (ex: Sierra Club) is not a winning strategy for MTB access?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I think you’re the ignorant one calling downhillers a non recreational sport. It’s 2018, lose the toe clips. Nothing wrong with shuttles or ebikes. Strength in numbers, you will see. The very same emtb rider could have been the head of your chapter or a land manager.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Do you not wipe? Also, apparently you don’t understand the forestry industry. Typical hypocrite.


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

Chairlifts and shuttles do not make DH bikes "motorized", I agree with you Gutch, but that does not mean ebikes=nonmotorized. 

Silly argument on both sides.

Yea Internet!


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I agree, never claimed ebikes are non motorized.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Gutch said:


> I think you're the ignorant one calling downhillers a non recreational sport. It's 2018, lose the toe clips. Nothing wrong with shuttles or ebikes. Strength in numbers, you will see. The very same emtb rider could have been the head of your chapter or a land manager.


Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything like that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

It's a waste of time trying to educate some people. Once again, e-motorbikers are their own worst enemies


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

life behind bars said:


> It's a waste of time trying to educate some people. Once again, e-motorbikers are their own worst enemies


Listen, I'm not an ebike expert either. I just enjoy them. I don't produce or sell them. Should ebikers be insulted because we LEGALLY enjoy them? Blame the industry, if you don't like them, but don't bust our balls for being a happy consumer. Fair enough?


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Listen, I'm not an ebike expert either. I just enjoy them. I don't produce or sell them. Should ebikers be insulted because we LEGALLY enjoy them? Blame the industry, if you don't like them, but don't bust our balls for being a happy consumer. Fair enough?


This isn't about you liking them, it's about your insistence to ignore advice when given. You choose to ignore "experts" like Walt when you should be listening with rapt attention. Instead you choose to deflect. Carry on, you're digging the collective graves of all e-motorbikes.


----------

