# How to fight muscle fatigue? New to longer rides



## 67King (Apr 16, 2020)

Been invited out a couple of times in the past couple of weeks on some longer, harder trails. I'm fine for say an hour and a half, then I just crash. Hard. My legs just turn to jello. Biking is secondary for me, I'm primarily a swimmer. Have done some marathon swims (10K), and am among the fastest. Resting heart rate is low 40's. On the long swims (2+ hours), I can hold a heart rate of 140 without much of an issue.

Last week, I was mid pack, more guys, wider range of ages and ability level. Had more time to rest as we let the back markers catch up, and it was a night ride, so not quite as fast. Yesterday there were 3 of us, one guy my age, one guy about 20 years older (this guy is a badass - there is some MTB ride in Nepal he is the oldest guy to ever complete). Yesterday we rode for about 2.5 hours, but the last hour I was having a hard time keeping pace. Which is to say my riding partners were waiting for me. Heart rate for the duration was only 110. I'd catch them waiting for me, they were winded, but I wasn't. 18 miles, 1800 feet of climbing. Some pretty darn steep grades. If any of you have ridden in Knoxville, this is the Urban Wilderness area, some of the more technical trails.

So it isn't conditioning. My legs just flat out won't go. That said, two other factors. One, I'm somewhat capable, but still ride more like a beginner, in that I can't carry my momentum as well, so I know I'm working harder. They have nice lightweight carbon bikes, probably 10 pounds lighter than my ,more entry level (Giant Stance) aluminum one. And I'm also the only guy on 27.5's. So the rollovers are harder for me than most others.

I tried to stay fed, but it isn't always easy. Keeping electrolytes in the bottle, water in the camelback. Gu's every hour. What advice do y'all have? Do I need to hit the gym and do weight training? Just ride more often? Will doing something more nutritionally help (on my swims, I have electrolytes every 30 minutes, and a Gu on the top of hour #1.......and 2 if I'm not close to the finish)? I also can handle 35 mile road rides wtih similar climbing, but lower grade, longer climbs, without too much of an issue. Although, my road bike is more in line with what the guys I ride with ride (i.e. much nicer). I'm not big on an arms race with the bike, but is that a bigger factor than I think (i.e. do I really need a nicer, lighter, 29-er)?

Oh yeah. On my own, I do a loop that is about 11.5 miles, still narrow, twisty, single track. Similar climb, 1150 feet. Can do that one in under 1:10, so a lot faster. And don't tire out. I just seem to hit a brick wall with the legs at about 1:30.

Any help appreciated.


----------



## DannyHuynh (Sep 13, 2011)

Ride at your own pace, don't try to keep up with faster riders. Thats a quick way to blow up. Sit and spin, don't stand up and mash if possible. I used to bonk around mile 17. I was only drinking water and eating gummies. Now I have a bottle of Cytomax Sport drink handy and have not bonked out since i started drinking the sports drink all throughout my rides. I also try to prehydrate before my rides. I drink a ton of water right before the ride. I find that I dont need to eat sport gummies anymore while riding but have them in my pack anyway just in case. Hope this helps.


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

More info would be fun to analyze. 
Swap bikes with one of the guys you can't keep up with and do that 2.5 hour ride over again.
That'll isolate the bike difference factor. You'd get feedback from him also.
For fuel I like to use a premade in bulk complex carb mix of 15+ different beans, rices, peas(dal) mixed with some olive oil and butter for fat and peanut butter with a little bbq or hot sauce flavoring before a ride. Just a few tablespoons heated will do for about 4 hours. And it really cuts recovery down.


----------



## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Have you tried real food (not gu's)?
A mid ride pb+j treats me much better then those gel things.

You may just need to ride more, so the legs get used to it.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


----------



## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

It's conditioning. Ride longer rides on your own. Build up some endurance so that you can hang with the long group ride.


----------



## norcalbike (Dec 17, 2004)

If you have a trainer at your disposal try holding 140 watts or so (depends on your FTP, but this is assuming you’re around 240 watts) for 45 minutes , then 60, then 90. Get used to what that effort in zone 2 feels like. Try and replicate that on long solo rides. That’s what works for me at least. Then when it’s game time I can comfortably spin for ages, and do the occasional burst of tempo or threshold on a longer ride.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

keep riding

/thread


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

As mention, it is conditioning.

There is some cross over from swimming but not a lot.

Look at it from the other way. On a bike I am quite fit, I regularly roll 4hr endurance rides with mountain bike Olympians. 20 years ago I was a fairly competent swimmer (22min 1500m). Despite my high level of bike fitness and decent swimming skills I am not confident that I could actually currently complete a 1500m swim. The swimming condition just isn't there, and it would take a lot of work to get it back.

Now you are looking to develop bike conditioning for the really first time. Your swimming background will shorten the time frame a bit but you are still looking at a lot of riding before you start to feel bike fit.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I didn't really answer your question in my first post.

Short term fixes.
-Watch the high efforts. Short steep climbs that you hit hard have a significant cumulative effect. You don't particularly feel them at the time but they nuke your legs later down the road.
-Be mellow at the start. Ride at or near the back early in the ride. You will find that you will feel relatively stronger as the ride progresses.
-Use a higher cadence. Pushing a low cadence takes a fair bike of muscular strength. Using a higher cadence will save your legs to a certain extent, but at the cost of a slightly high heart rate.

Medium term fixes.
- Sneak in some mid-week road ride. Flat road rides are amazing for rapidly developing your ability to maintain pace on longer rides.

Long term: Ride lots.


----------



## barelfly (Jun 27, 2008)

It’s conditioning. As other have stated. If you want to ride good for 2.5 hours, you need to be able to ride 3.5 hours. Just time in the saddle is all you need, which will lead to incremental gains on the bike. When you are in a group ride, you are trying to keep up so you may be riding a bit harder than you are ready for, but more riding will help this and after time, you will be towards the front. 

And, like LMN says, don’t kill yourself at the beginning. Know your strengths and weaknesses, and ride from there. When groups ride together, good ones know there will be a spread and are ok with that. You’ll be fine. 

Heck, earlier this summer, I was riding a POS MTB with 10 other guys, I was the last one throughout the 3 hours. After an MTB upgrade to a modern bike and then riding the crap out of that thing and getting in long road rides, I’m can keep up because my skills are better but I also have much better endurance. 

Last - just go have fun!


----------



## j-t-g (Aug 15, 2013)

DannyHuynh said:


> I find that I dont need to eat sport gummies anymore while riding but have them in my pack anyway just in case. Hope this helps.


But what if I want to keep eating gummies while I ride?


----------



## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

LMN mentioned something spot on. I was at the peak of my cycling fitness in 2020. I had to run around the entire distribution center I worked out of once to make a meeting in time, since the gate station was way backed up... I thought it would be a breeze because I was in such good shape. A minute or two into the run I had the very clear realization that there is very little cross over between cycling and running. Just because your cardio engine can run doesn't mean you're up to a new task you're not conditioned to specifically.

Something else I have figured out, although I've known about it for a long time. (As my father always said, "Some can be taught and others will have to learn".) I've heard forever that high volume, low intensity stuff really builds the engine for endurance and being fast when you want to be. In 2020, at my peak, not only was I riding more than I ever had at mostly 60-70% of my max heart rate, I had also spent years throwing 38,000 to 40,000 pounds of cases on my 18 wheeler trailer. I'd move every case on every pallet by hand, sorting each different item from every other item, putting pallets on top of other palletized product, lifting them by hand too. That sort of work wasn't a race. It took anywhere from 7-11 hours. You had to pace yourself. I did that 2 or 3 times a week for years at that point. That sort of slow and steady work builds endurance, and gives you the base to let it rip when you want to, provided you also train to be able to rip.

I stopped working that much and that hard after Covid hit, and I haven't been as awesome on the bike since. I did get sick with Covid and it took a ton from me, but I think the lack of endurance was more than just coincidence around getting sick. You've got to spend the hours on the bike, probably going slower for most of it than you think you should.

As far as food... I never ate during a ride, unless it was going to be over 20-25 miles. Most of my riding was in the morning after 15-16 hours had passed since my last meal and while a lot of it was at low intensity, plenty of it was all out time trial sort of stuff. Not to brag or anything, just to say as others already have... there is a lot to be said about conditioning and what you're used to.

You probably already know this, but overtraining is something to keep a close watch on. Whenever I felt like I should be making progress and could tell I wasn't, I was probably hitting it too hard too often. Softening up for 2 or 3 weeks usually set me straight. And holy crap, getting enough sleep can not be understated. 

Just keep working at it. You'll get there.


----------



## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

A lot of things matter on long rides. 


Fitness (not just endurance fitness but intense power work helps on long rides too).
Nutrition/hydration (you have to prepare and practice hydrating and eating on longer rides).
Bike fit (often overlooked but can have an exaggerated effect on longer efforts).
Clothing and gear (feet swell, chamois gets clammy, etc.)
Strategy (managing your effort over the duration)


----------



## FortOrdMTB (May 29, 2021)

127.0.0.1 said:


> keep riding
> 
> /thread


+1.

Don‘t expect to be a good marathoner if you don’t run more than 10k.


----------



## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

You need to ride more than once a week. You can also do this on a trainer. If you are in the gym, some leg presses after that or something similar at home. More important to mountain bikers than road bikers.

On the ride keep steady effort without spikes. Ride with people at your level or a little bit higher, not a lot higher than you. You need to work up to it, it's not going to happen overnight.


----------



## thatalexguy (Oct 5, 2021)

You will eventually get used to it. Swimming and cycling tax the body differently. Your cardiovascular endurance from swimming definitely helps you but you need to build muscular endurance in the legs by riding. Eat easily digestible foods thru out the ride and drink liquids with light carbohydrates and salts like Scratch Labs, Carborocket or anything similar. I personally use Carborocket, Neversecond, Infinite, and Maruten depending on what I need for the ride. I also bring Cliff blocks with me to eat. 

Bike fit can also have an effect. A saddle too low, too high or too far back can put you in a less efficient pedaling position wasting energy. Since you are a swimmer with strong cardio, I recommend you pedal one gear easier than you normally do so that you pedal at higher RPMs rather than a low RPM grind. You will be more efficient at higher RPMs.


----------



## Juansan (Dec 30, 2020)

Tramadol, EPO, Testosterone, Clenbuterol, hGH or ride more, eat right ( vegan ) get enough sleep, hydrate, etc.


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

67King said:


> Been invited out a couple of times in the past couple of weeks on some longer, harder trails. I'm fine for say an hour and a half, then I just crash. Hard. My legs just turn to jello. Biking is secondary for me, I'm primarily a swimmer. Have done some marathon swims (10K), and am among the fastest. Resting heart rate is low 40's. On the long swims (2+ hours), I can hold a heart rate of 140 without much of an issue.
> 
> Last week, I was mid pack, more guys, wider range of ages and ability level. Had more time to rest as we let the back markers catch up, and it was a night ride, so not quite as fast. Yesterday there were 3 of us, one guy my age, one guy about 20 years older (this guy is a badass - there is some MTB ride in Nepal he is the oldest guy to ever complete). Yesterday we rode for about 2.5 hours, but the last hour I was having a hard time keeping pace. Which is to say my riding partners were waiting for me. Heart rate for the duration was only 110. I'd catch them waiting for me, they were winded, but I wasn't. 18 miles, 1800 feet of climbing. Some pretty darn steep grades. If any of you have ridden in Knoxville, this is the Urban Wilderness area, some of the more technical trails.
> 
> ...


Go see a doctor 👌


----------



## DannyHuynh (Sep 13, 2011)

j-t-g said:


> But what if I want to keep eating gummies while I ride?


Eat those gummies! I like to bust them out at the top of a big climb and pass them around to my buddies as a little spirit boost.


----------



## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

ebike


----------



## 67King (Apr 16, 2020)

Thanks for the input. A few more details/thoughts/whatever.
Nutritionally, I eat pretty healthy. Need a lot of protein due to swimming, so even if it weren't for eating together as a family, which precludes a vegan diet, I'd still need more and more complete protein than a vegan diet can provide (at least without drastically increasing my caloric intake). But we cook almost all of our meals, don't eat fried foods, don't eat fast food, etc. When I ride in the mornings, I eat greek yogurt and granola. Usually keep some fig bars in the camelback, to give a combination of both simple and complex carbs. If later in the day, I'll have one of those an hour before I ride, and take either Stinger chews or waffle about 15 minutes before I ride. I had a couple of fig bars with me, as well as some Stinger chews, but I only ate the Gu's because the group didn't really stop long enough to (conversely, on the night ride I took a couple of weeks ago, there was a mechanical, so I had plenty of time and ate a fig bar, but I hadn't taken any electrolytes with me). After that ride, I added Gatorade to my hydration (I use Skratch for the swims).

Don't feel like I"m going out too hard. I'm almsot 48, so my max heart rate is 172. Can go out and hold 160 on the bike for an hour. I'm around 140 until I get warmed up, about 30 minutes in. But again, I'm focusing on heart rate, I don't feel like I'm taxing my legs at that point.

LMN, my 1650 is 21:20 while training, but I'm faster at open waters. My 10K was 2:16.04, so holding I think 1:18 100's? Mile splits were all under 22. I did taper for that one, though. Trying to get back in "pool" shape, rather tahn open waters, now, though, so I'm not sure where I'd be. My fly has seriously suffered since COVID hit, but I'm slowly getting it back.

Bike fit is pretty solid. Had it set up by a very highly regarded LBS owner, and friends have indicated it looks good. But I have been advised I have my cleats too far forward. I generally am a "masher," which just fits well with proper longer swim technique (long, super efficient strokes), but I have been trying to make a deliberate effort to gear down more to keep up the tempo. It hasn't really helped, though.

May need to see if I can find a lighter loaner bike to see about that. I'm pretty short (~5'7"), so most of the folks I ride with have larger bikes.

Anyway, I keep getting asked out, so I'm not offending anyone. Need to get my wife's elipitcal out of the way and set up the trainer I just bought, since winter is upon us. Will try to stay more ahead of things this week assuming I can go out with them on Wednesday night, again.


----------



## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

67King said:


> I'm almsot 48, so my max heart rate is 172.


You are using the 220 minus your age to figure your max heart rate. It could be your max is much higher and you're never training in your higher zones, so your body doesn't get any practice at going that hard when it needs to, if it has at all. I don't know about swiming to know if you are a bad ass though, maybe you are, but I'm 45 and my max was 205 when I was in my 20s and I saw 201 last year. I could keep above 190 for 10-20 minutes at a time until Covid beat me up. Maybe do a good max heart rate test and see if you have more whoop ass you can open up.

You said you're 5'8"... The way you eat it sounds like you probably don't weigh much. I knew a guy in grad school, top 10 out of almost 100 of us, all sorts of colors and medals on his gown at graduation, makes a ton auditing insurance (he went to the dark side) and anybody would tell you he was a super genius. He was about 6'2" and maybe weighed 160 pounds because he had so much pride in his clean diet. I went to a state park with him one time and he asked me to slow down a bit when we were walking up this gentle grade. I eased up a bit, and then he nearly started crying as he collapsed onto a park bench and wailed at me that he had said we needed to slow down. Dude just didn't have any muscle.

Not saying you're weak because you might not weigh a lot, but I've known so many of the type of people that barely eat, and they can't really do much with their body either. Of course plenty of elite runners and cyclists weigh nearly nothing, so it's not really an accurate broad stroke, but maybe try eating some cheeseburgers or pigging out in general, do a bunch of sprint training to grow your legs, amp up the intensity if you have more rev in your engine in the way of max heart rate and see if gaining ten pounds of muscle makes you a beast on the bike.


----------



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

It's not food intake or aerobic fitnesd if you still have energy but your legs are blown. 

You need to build the muscles that cycling is using. Get out there and ride 2 to 3 times per week. For at least one of those rides make it a longer one over 2 hours. 

After a few months your leg muscles will build up to match your aerobic fitness.

Job done.


----------



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Side note. Check seat height. If your seat is too low you will blow out your thighs.


----------



## 67King (Apr 16, 2020)

KobayashiMaru said:


> You are using the 220 minus your age to figure your max heart rate. It could be your max is much higher and you're never training in your higher zones, so your body doesn't get any practice at going that hard when it needs to, if it has at all. I don't know about swiming to know if you are a bad ass though, maybe you are, but I'm 45 and my max was 205 when I was in my 20s and I saw 201 last year. I could keep above 190 for 10-20 minutes at a time until Covid beat me up. Maybe do a good max heart rate test and see if you have more whoop ass you can open up.
> 
> You said you're 5'8"... The way you eat it sounds like you probably don't weigh much. I knew a guy in grad school, top 10 out of almost 100 of us, all sorts of colors and medals on his gown at graduation, makes a ton auditing insurance (he went to the dark side) and anybody would tell you he was a super genius. He was about 6'2" and maybe weighed 160 pounds because he had so much pride in his clean diet. I went to a state park with him one time and he asked me to slow down a bit when we were walking up this gentle grade. I eased up a bit, and then he nearly started crying as he collapsed onto a park bench and wailed at me that he had said we needed to slow down. Dude just didn't have any muscle.
> 
> Not saying you're weak because you might not weigh a lot, but I've known so many of the type of people that barely eat, and they can't really do much with their body either. Of course plenty of elite runners and cyclists weigh nearly nothing, so it's not really an accurate broad stroke, but maybe try eating some cheeseburgers or pigging out in general, do a bunch of sprint training to grow your legs, amp up the intensity if you have more rev in your engine in the way of max heart rate and see if gaining ten pounds of muscle makes you a beast on the bike.


Yes, just using that as a guide. My "pool" workouts (as opposed to open water, which is the 10K race I mentioned), which are geared towards shorter events, are all HIIT based. I hit 180 on some of those. But with swimming, your heart rate is lower, about 20 points or so, because you are horizontal, and because the water keeps your core temperature cooler. And like I said, my resting heart rate is in the low 40's, so I'm pretty fit. FWIW, on my 10K swim, I beat an Ironman winner 10 years younger than me. 6th overall out of I think 80? Only guy that beat me by more than 5 minutes was half my age. Average time for all finishers was a bit under 3 hours (I was 2:16). But I don't think I could hold what you hold for 20 minutes. 160 for an hour, NP. 140 for over 2, NP. 180 for a half hour? Can't see that.

Not a lightweight. I'm about 160, a bit heavier than my road biking peers. At least the ones who aren't a lot taller than me. But it is all upper body. 40" chest, 31" waist. BMI wise, I'm technically "overweight." I was about 185 five years ago, and decided to get fit. Crash dieted, lost weight, then started training. I don't keep up with my calorie intake, I'm not nuts about it. But no, I'm certainly not some sort of lightweight like your college buddy. And I can gain weight pretty quickly if I'm out for a week or so. And like I said, we get to the top, and I'm the only one not winded. I guess the difference here is that when I started swimming, it was all solo, so my benchmark was the clock, meaning my prior times. Now I have a different benchmark. Maybe I'm just expecting more translation than I'm getting.

Seems that it really all boils down to just more seat time, and leg strength. Which I suppose seems like a no brainer. Guess when I'm helping folks who are triathletes learn to swim, there is so much technique that they need help with that I was thinking it was more that.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

The day before I got my first bike, in 2009, I ran a mile in 4:24. 6:00/mile long run pace. Long tempo, faster. 

Did my first group ride a month later. First race, a month after that. Placed, in fact. A year later, I got my first power meter, and did something in the low 300s for a 20min max test. I was ecstatic. 

Ten years later, I can barely break 15min for two miles. But, today, I can hold a conversation while doing 300w for an hour. 

Tl;dr: While some level of fitness is transferable, you can’t necessarily expect untrained muscles to suddenly produce an effort similar to what you did while swimming. Because, until you’ve been doing it for a while, that’s what it is. I wouldn’t even call it a leg strength issue; if you can stand up quickly using both legs, you have the strength to produce a lot of sustained power on the bike. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

67King said:


> Now I have a different benchmark.


Whenever I think I suck, I think about guys that still ride without fully functioning hands, or only one arm, or people that don't have usable legs that ride recumbants and pedal with their arms or push a racing wheelchair for hours on the road. Then I don't think I suck so bad.

My wife wanted to help me out once when I was swamped with school, so she mowed the yard before I got home. She push mowed it, but had no idea the mower was a heavy self propelled model (that absolutely sucked your soul out of you if you had to push it without the benefit of the propulsion system). She mowed the whole yard without engaging the drive system like it was nothing. She just thought that's how it was and got about doing it.

Same with her second pregnancy. We were told it would be hours before she'd be dilated enough to warrant actually taking up a room on a busy full moon night at the hospital. We went home, I watched a whole world series game. She laid in bed and tried to mark time. A couple of hours later she insisted we go to the hospital because she was in so much pain. I thought she was a bit premature but we went anyway. When she got into a room about a half hour later, there was a head poking out of her, and two pushes later the baby was delivered. She had no idea she was actually in active labor that whole time.

Mentally pitting yourself against people who are already beasts when you don't have the same foundation and experience that they do is a great way to feel like a turd.

It always helps to keep perspective in check.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KobayashiMaru said:


> You said you're 5'8"... The way you eat it sounds like you probably don't weigh much. I knew a guy in grad school, top 10 out of almost 100 of us, all sorts of colors and medals on his gown at graduation, makes a ton auditing insurance (he went to the dark side) and anybody would tell you he was a super genius. He was about 6'2" and maybe weighed 160 pounds because he had so much pride in his clean diet. I went to a state park with him one time and he asked me to slow down a bit when we were walking up this gentle grade. I eased up a bit, and then he nearly started crying as he collapsed onto a park bench and wailed at me that he had said we needed to slow down. Dude just didn't have any muscle.
> 
> Not saying you're weak because you might not weigh a lot, but I've known so many of the type of people that barely eat, and they can't really do much with their body either. Of course plenty of elite runners and cyclists weigh nearly nothing, so it's not really an accurate broad stroke, but maybe try eating some cheeseburgers or pigging out in general, do a bunch of sprint training to grow your legs, amp up the intensity if you have more rev in your engine in the way of max heart rate and see if gaining ten pounds of muscle makes you a beast on the bike.



That's an anecdotal story and poor advice imo. For one thing being thin isn't a bad thing and body types are largely based on physiology. Plenty of people who are crazy strong on a bike are taller and thinner than your college buddy.

Also you don't need to binge on cheeseburgers to gain muscle, lots of people get ripped with no meat at all.

Finally, it doesn't seem like the op is lacking muscle or that nutrition has anything to do with the problem. Part of the thread title, "new to longer rides" seems like a good clue about what is needed to avoid muscle fatigue during them.


----------



## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's an anecdotal story and poor advice imo.


I said it wasn't an accurate broad stroke and mentioned most elite runners and cyclists were super lightweight. "Eat some cheeseburgers" is a general term I use for eat more. I know it's not true in every case, but so many people adopt such strange eating habits in pursuit of being thin that they end up working against their goals. Remember 20-30 years ago when people thought no fat diets were a good thing? Horrible idea that had the opposite effect of what people thought it would.

I didn't mention it, but if a person is eating less than would be optimal, how can they have enough stored glycogen for long efforts, and I know it doesn't work exactly like this, but if a person has less muscle mass, then there are less places to store glycogen to begin with.

I could do 2 hours at hard effort and 4 or more at less than 70 percent of max heart rate with no food for 12 to 15 hours before the ride. I usually 185-195 pounds at 5'10". I've got muscle and eat plenty. I know it's anectdotal, but take a little bit of this and a little bit of that and see what makes a difference.


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

r-rocket said:


> ebike


rofl 😂


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I didn't mention it, but if a person is eating less than would be optimal, how can they have enough stored glycogen for long efforts, and I know it doesn't work exactly like this, but if a person has less muscle mass, then there are less places to store glycogen to begin with.



The average person has enough glycogen stores to last for approximately 90 minutes of hard exercise, after that you need to fuel during the ride. Being big or overweight isn't helpful.


----------



## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> Being big or overweight isn't helpful.


Which is why I said I knew it didn't work exactly like that, but glycogen _is _stored in the muscles. I would have to imagine more muscle equals more storage, which equals the possibility for more energy without an influx of energy from food. But that's only my imagination.

I was only suggesting to eat more and see if it helps. You can't run a motor without fuel. Maybe he's not eating enough for what he wants to do.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KobayashiMaru said:


> Which is why I said I knew it didn't work exactly like that, but glycogen _is _stored in the muscles. I would have to imagine more muscle equals more storage, which equals the possibility for more energy without an influx of energy from food. But that's only my imagination.
> 
> I was only suggesting to eat more and see if it helps. You can't run a motor without fuel. Maybe he's not eating enough for what he wants to do.



Diet and fueling during the ride are important no doubt but note that all endurance athletes are skinny.


----------



## abeckstead (Feb 29, 2012)

OP one thing I didn’t see is how long you’ve actually been riding vs others in your ride group. IMO you need to ride more and for longer. Your base ‘bike’ fitness isn’t at the level of your riding group. I’ve taken breaks from riding over the years, because ’life’. It usually takes me 6-9 months of regular riding to get my strength back, I’m 44. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Diet and fueling during the ride are important no doubt but note that all endurance athletes are skinny.


Really skinny. On the road Wout Van Aert would be considered a big rider and he is 6 1' and 165lb.


----------



## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Diet and fueling during the ride are important no doubt but note that all endurance athletes are skinny.


That's a myth (all endurance athletes are skinny). A few studies have shown wide variability in BMI and muscle/fat composition in endurance and ultra athletes. That said, the same studies suggest that lower BMI is correlated with better results. But again, there are some successful endurance athletes who would not be considered "skinny".


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

RickBullottaPA said:


> That's a myth (all endurance athletes are skinny). A few studies have shown wide variability in BMI and muscle/fat composition in endurance and ultra athletes. That said, the same studies suggest that lower BMI is correlated with better results. But again, there are some successful endurance athletes who would not be considered "skinny".



Ok, then 99% of them are skinny. At least 98


----------



## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Ok, then 99% of them are skinny. At least 98


Ha ha. Probably right.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

RickBullottaPA said:


> That's a myth (all endurance athletes are skinny). A few studies have shown wide variability in BMI and muscle/fat composition in endurance and ultra athletes. That said, the same studies suggest that lower BMI is correlated with better results. But again, there are some successful endurance athletes who would not be considered "skinny".


Really depends on your definition of skinny. As to the OPs example, in endurance sport 6'2" and 160lb really isn't skinny. At that height and weight someone could pack reasonable amount of muscle and still have a body fat percentage north of 10%. One of my riding buddies is exactly this height and weight, he is an incredible cyclist/athlete but he is a bit soft around the middle.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Cycling Physique


It is easy to assume that successful professional cyclists are all skinny little guys, but if you look at the data, it turns out that they have an average height of 1.80m and an average weight of a…




science4performance.com





About what I’d expect; not a whole lot of fatties or muscle bound freaks going really fast on bikes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I really doubt their 29ers weigh 10#'s less than your 27.5".

Ultimately you are trying to ride with well trained mountain bikers, and you are simply not one. It's a specialized skill set.

Buy a spin bike and get your 6+ hours of Z2 (on a 5 Zone scale) per week in. Refuel properly afterwards as part of a complete nutrition plan.

Work on your skills so that you can maintain momentum better.

Run the absolute fastest tires that you can get away with.

If you do these things you will be much faster, and it'll happen pretty quickly.

GL


----------



## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> note that all endurance athletes are skinny.


I've already mentioned elite cyclists being skinny. It's not like I believe they're fat. I don't know why this keeps getting put in front of me. (So many of us in this forum make tons of good points about things and very seldom does anyone say something supportive or positive about any of it. It's the one item in ten posts someone finds a fault with that they have to hop on and ride like a rented mule..........)

The OP is not an elite cyclist. Probably 95 percent or more of the people that chime into these debates aren't either. The OP is a regular dude. Again, just saying try out eating more, in the event you aren't eating enough. It might make a difference. More leg muscles can't hurt any of us either.

Not to keep a pissing match going, and certainly not to carry on like I know anything about Mikesee, but I think I remember reading about him and being impressed at how much he has achieved being a big dude, but my memory could be serving me poorly here. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KobayashiMaru said:


> So many of us in this forum make tons of good points about things and very seldom does anyone say something supportive or positive about any of it.


I made a positive mention




J.B. Weld said:


> Diet and fueling during the ride are important no doubt


I didn't mean to come off as being overly critical but I will hold to my opinion that getting bigger by eating more will benefit very (very!) few people and would hurt most if their goal is to improve their endurance rides.

To gain endurance the standard formula is to increase your riding time an do a fair amount of z-2. Weight will generally come down and endurance will rise. As mentioned I think pre and during ride nutrition and hydration is important. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.


----------



## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> I will hold to my opinion that getting bigger by eating more will benefit very (very!) few people and would hurt most if their goal is to improve their endurance rides.


Obviously eating too much and getting too big won't help anyone in this particular pursuit, but there may be a small chance he's big up top and skinny down below. He sort of hinted at being better built up top, probably from all the swimming.

How many guys (granted most are "body builder" types) do you know that put very little focus on their leg development but are all swole up above the waist?

Not saying the OP has spaghetti legs, but I bet they'd get bigger with the right training (and diet) alongside an increase in his riding volume and endurance limits.

And yes, most of the elite guys are not huge, but we're all normal around here.


----------



## 67King (Apr 16, 2020)

Went out again a couple of nights ago. The more people in the group, the more I find my place. I posted this after being 3rd of 3. This time I was generally 3rd of 5. Anyhooo.......

Even after a rides, I was solid, generally hanging near the front guys until about 1:45 in. Ended up being a 2:40 ride. But even for the last hour, I wasn't too far behind the leaders until something* happened. Being a night ride, and eing not that familiar with the trails, as soon as I got a little behind and didn't have someone in front of me to follow, I was just plain slower because I didn't know where I was going.

*Threw my chain (slipped off lowest gear and got stuck b/t spokes and cassette) twice.

So yeah, just keep riding. Need to get the trainer set up. Unfortunately I'm out of town for most of the next 2 weeks, taking kids to out of town swim meets. Back at it starting 12/12. Just have to run (which I freaking HATE) in the mean time.

Side note to address some chatter: Appreciate the support, was not offended by anything. Took comments not as insults, but as advice. I have discovered in MTB, there are people with all kinds of physiques who can ride well. And like I said, I do have a high BMI for a cyclist, but I do have spaghetti legs (common with swimmers)! BTW.....4:24/mile running is HAULING. My best was 4:45. Nowadays I can hold 7:15's for a few miles now if flat, but hills kill me. But I only run when I have no other option!


----------



## barelfly (Jun 27, 2008)

I’ll add this - even with the amount of riding I do, 150 miles or 10-12 hours a week between road/MTB, an almost 3 hour MTB ride would tire me a bit, especially if there was good elevation change. But, you are doing all the right things! Just keep having fun and ride the trails inbetween your group rides, that will help in all ways with fitness and familiarity.


----------



## azjonboy (Dec 21, 2006)

Keep in mind you are nearly doubling your normal ride time. No wonder you’re feeling worn out. An incremental increase to the longer duration would benefit you and give your body the right recovery it needs along the way.

Be patient and develop a program where you increase ride time by a more modest amount per week to let your body adapt to the increased stress. This will also help you develop better MTB skills so you work more efficiently and gain endurance and strength at the same time.

Enjoy your ride !


----------

