# Keto diet and Endurance



## MaineLotus (Jun 27, 2016)

Started on a Keto diet end of last December and so far it's been great. I've lost weight and energy levels are very stable, more so than using carbs as energy.

Anyone here with Keto diet / endurance racing experiences? Signed up for two races this year (single speed category), one is a 24hr race - approx. 9 miles/900ft elevation per lap.


----------



## moab63 (Dec 29, 2003)

Read all the work, by Dr. Dan Plews leading the charge on exactly this. Added all the names above.


----------



## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

There is a movement of ultra-marathon runners on keto diets. Worth looking into for endurance stuff, but detrimental to high intensity efforts. Pick your poison.


----------



## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

The longer you are on keto the better you will perform on it. My peak intensity is almost as good as when carb fueled. But I can ride fasted if I want to and not bonk. I've done keto may times and have stayed on it for over a year. Once adapted you can ad more carbs during ride on race day. But requires some research.


----------



## mtb_phd (Jun 28, 2017)

Train low / race high [carbohydrate] has its merits, even for MTB. Bear in mind though that MTB is inherently intense, even when you are going easy. The demands are different than most of what has been investigated in the literature.


----------



## MaineLotus (Jun 27, 2016)

Thanks for the information everyone. I think I'll need to experiment to see if an all protein diet will work during the race. I'd still like to hear from someone that has fueled with protein for a 24hr solo MTB endurance event. I know everyone is different, but there doesn't seem to be much information out there.


----------



## mtb_phd (Jun 28, 2017)

There might be anecdotes from 24 hour racers on carbohydrate restricted diets, but proper research on this specifically would be difficult to organize! Either way you approach training, you will still want carbohydrates during the race.

You might find this podcast episode helpful (my co-host did his PhD on low cho diets and ultra-endurance performance): https://anchor.fm/performanceadvant...-with-Expert-Dr-Will-OConnor-eau79l/a-a1hp5gj


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

MaineLotus said:


> Thanks for the information everyone. I think I'll need to experiment to see if an all protein diet will work during the race. I'd still like to hear from someone that has fueled with protein for a 24hr solo MTB endurance event. I know everyone is different, but there doesn't seem to be much information out there.


Joe Rogan talks about Keto a lot with his podcast guests.


----------



## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

MaineLotus said:


> Thanks for the information everyone. I think I'll need to experiment to see if an all protein diet will work during the race. I'd still like to hear from someone that has fueled with protein for a 24hr solo MTB endurance event. I know everyone is different, but there doesn't seem to be much information out there.


1) You're not going to "fuel" yourself with protein. You'll be relying predominantly on your stored fats and ketone mobilization, as well as stored glycogen.

2) It is possible to fuel 24+ hrs of aerobic activity from your fat stores, if you keep your intensity levels low enough. At higher aerobic intensities, you will shift to glycogen/glucose utilization. All keto-adaptation does is shift where that transition in substrate utilization occurs. Given the elevation gain per lap, and the fact you're on a single-speed, there will be plenty of instances where you're going to dip into your glycogen stores. Once you burn through those stores, you're going to be left in a mental fog wondering what the heck went wrong. So, even if you're planning on a ketogenic diet strategy (which is absolutely NOT all-protein...), I'd suggest having a back-up plan unless you plan to ride slow the entire race.

3) Is this your first 24-hour solo race, or just the first on keto? Maybe keep a note-pad in the pits and jot your perceived energy level/exertion each time you stop in to refuel/replace bottles, etc. If you have HR and power data, you may able to approximate the intensity level that keeps you out of the red, or at least manage to capture approximately when you've burned through enough glycogen to impair your performance, mood, mental clarity, etc. (granted, none of this is a substitute for actually calculating substrate utilization via indirect calorimetry). It might be useful data to help you prepare for the next 24-hour race...


----------



## TMWTP (Nov 20, 2015)

There is a great book on the subject. The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance, by Jeff S. Volek, PhD, RD, and Stephen D. Phinney, MD, PhD.


----------



## MaineLotus (Jun 27, 2016)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> 1) You're not going to "fuel" yourself with protein. You'll be relying predominantly on your stored fats and ketone mobilization, as well as stored glycogen.
> 
> 2) It is possible to fuel 24+ hrs of aerobic activity from your fat stores, if you keep your intensity levels low enough. At higher aerobic intensities, you will shift to glycogen/glucose utilization. All keto-adaptation does is shift where that transition in substrate utilization occurs. Given the elevation gain per lap, and the fact you're on a single-speed, there will be plenty of instances where you're going to dip into your glycogen stores. Once you burn through those stores, you're going to be left in a mental fog wondering what the heck went wrong. So, even if you're planning on a ketogenic diet strategy (which is absolutely NOT all-protein...), I'd suggest having a back-up plan unless you plan to ride slow the entire race.
> 
> 3) Is this your first 24-hour solo race, or just the first on keto? Maybe keep a note-pad in the pits and jot your perceived energy level/exertion each time you stop in to refuel/replace bottles, etc. If you have HR and power data, you may able to approximate the intensity level that keeps you out of the red, or at least manage to capture approximately when you've burned through enough glycogen to impair your performance, mood, mental clarity, etc. (granted, none of this is a substitute for actually calculating substrate utilization via indirect calorimetry). It might be useful data to help you prepare for the next 24-hour race...


Thank you for the information. Yes, this is my first 24hr race. I started a keto diet end of last November to lose weight for this race, and a couple others this summer. If I follow your advice correctly, it sounds like I should plan to have carbs available to sustain 24hrs.


----------



## moab63 (Dec 29, 2003)

Follow Dan Plews, Paul Larsen and Pete Attia all the information you need they have it.


----------



## solarplex (Apr 11, 2014)

Found I just couldnt stay hydrated at all with keto and had zero intensity. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TMWTP (Nov 20, 2015)

More electrolytes would help that. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Dr. Dominic D'Agostino is another one that has LOADS if information on low carb/high fat diets. TONS.


----------



## Monster Truck (Sep 17, 2009)

I've never done a 24hr endurance race. I've done a ton of 6-10hr 10'K climbing rides and a few 12hr rides on keto. I finished last year with a White Rim one day and I've trained for the 12hrs of Mesa Verde this winter but that got cancelled cause of the pandemic and all. I am not a XC racer. But I'm happy to share my keto cycling experience. YMMV.

I've been low carb since 2014 and strict keto for 2 years. My general impression is that it takes a long time to fully adapt to keto. It took me about 6mo to be really comfortable on longer efforts and 9mo to be able to push on longer efforts. I am more of a eggs, nuts and avocado Keto vs a dairy/ red meat. Not a vegetarian, not even close. But I try to maximize monounsaturated fats for baseline energy. 

For longer rides/ more relevant to a 24hr race. For the most part I drink water on rides up to about 4-6hrs. I feel best after about 4hrs. Beyond 4-6 hrs I like salty fatty snacks like pork rinds, nuts and very dark chocolate. I've also had very good experience with the UCAN super starch bars. I feel that I can dig deeper, longer and more often on a keto diet vs a normal diet. But as has been said there is a definite limit to power out put on keto. For longer efforts this is totally irrelevant though, for me. I simply am not strong enough to get any where near max power during a big ride for any length of time. My pace on a long ride is much slower than a 1-2 hour burner. So I don't miss the top end. I think having a lower top end on long efforts is self protecting. I can diesel along at a pretty good clip. But sprints and such are just limited. So I don't/ can't burn all my matches too fast. Not sure how that would translate to a single speed bike. I just down shift and spin. Until there is no spinning to be done. Then I mash my granny gear. Some hills are steep. 

If I will be pushing hard, like a 1hr hill climb effort for time, or a 1hr threshold effort on the Zwift bike I simply need carbs beyond 35min. I have not been able to extend that time frame with MCT oil, or fasting or supra threshold efforts fasted. At threshold and above, even well adapted on keto you are making lactate, by definition. Therefore you are using glycolysis to rapidly generate ATP. And that means burning carbs. That said even during hard efforts you are generating more energy from fat than the not keto adapted athlete, making less lactate and using less carbs. So you don't need a ton of carbs to keep the legs turning. I find my recovery times are lower now than they used to be. This is true both on the bike and in the gym. 

Overall, I think that nutrition is VERY individual. I have a few friends also on keto inspired partly by my positive experience. We all can ride harder, longer with faster recovery than on standard diet. We are all enjoying cycling more (and that is all that matters in this long post). We all used to suck down cytomax or what have you for rides, and we used to bonk and cramp and hurt for days. Now we drink water. But the details of our experience are as unique as we are. For you OP I really think the keto diet is essential (for many people but not all) for endurance races. My concern would be the time that you've been on keto and the anticipated hard efforts on the single speed. Just be mindful while training. And eat some carbs (I recommend UCAN) on race day and race simulating training. 

Keto On!!!


----------



## MaineLotus (Jun 27, 2016)

Very good information, thank you! I'll order and try out UCAN bars, thanks for the tip. My diet is also nuts, eggs, avocado, but also fish and chicken, some steak. Not into "dirty keto", excess fats. Keto has been more of a lifestyle change for me, I was a bread and pasta (carbs) guy. I'm down 25lbs and feel better\stronger, so far so good.

It does sound like I'll need to plan on eating carbs to maintain enough energy over 24hrs.


----------



## Timon (May 11, 2008)

I find it hard to believe you can keep the effort low enough riding singlespeed to not be burning through carbs like crazy.

I've raced a lot of endurance and ultra endurance events, both singlespeed and geared....and regardless of bike there's a lot of high intensity efforts. Without walking A LOT, there is absolutely no way to keep your effort level under a threshold intensity on a SS. Maybe with ultra endurance trail running that's different because you can actually hike uphill segments and keep your HR lower and not lose much time on the field. In my experience that's simply not reasonable if you want to be even semi-competitive. Whether it's 24 hours of old pueblo or colorado trail race....there's a lot of time spent above threshold and even at vo2 max power to keep momentum and simply get yourself up the climbs. Heck, with 24hop, you gotta legitimately do a 6min/mile running sprint at the gun to get to your bike to get a decent position going into the singletrack. Without a 1:1 ratio, there's no way you're not going well over threshold HR going up the first climb to the top of ten mile at the Breck 100. When you're 5+ hrs into these things, it's the guys that can still knock out 20-30min at or above threshold and hold a really high pace to the finish that go on to podium, not the ones that dial it back and keep their HR low.

All the science I've seen says carbs are king on the bike and are instrumental to pre-ride fueling, in-ride fueling and post-ride re-fueling. If you want to lose fat and be healthier, it's calories in/calories out and you gotta keep yourself at a deficit until the weight comes off. Eating lots of green things, colorful veggies, beans and things high in fiber/volume help to keep you feeling fuller and being healthier....which inherently means way less bread/pasta.


----------



## Monster Truck (Sep 17, 2009)

MaineLotus said:


> It does sound like I'll need to plan on eating carbs to maintain enough energy over 24hrs.


I think so. Again, it doesn't take a ton of carbs to stay well fuels as a Keto athlete. And there is a dark side of too many carbs. While exercising you can burn a lot of carbs without a big insulin spike and staying well in ketosis. But if you do get a big insulin spike then fat metabolism drops off dramatically. And it is very individual. So best to practice. There is a lot of keto endurance info in the Iron Man world. I have not ventured there for a while but I'm sure you can look into it. Please share your experience as you train and race.


----------



## Monster Truck (Sep 17, 2009)

Timon said:


> All the science I've seen says carbs are king on the bike and are instrumental to pre-ride fueling, in-ride fueling and post-ride re-fueling. If you want to lose fat and be healthier, it's calories in/calories out and you gotta keep yourself at a deficit until the weight comes off. Eating lots of green things, colorful veggies, beans and things high in fiber/volume help to keep you feeling fuller and being healthier....which inherently means way less bread/pasta.


Calories in/ calories out has died 1000 deaths and still lives because it makes sense. But it doesn't work IRL. No one loses weight over any time period following that line of thinking. Carbon in/ carbon out is true for sure, conservation of mass and all that. But neither you nor I nor anyone outside of a physiologic chamber can measure carbon or calories out with any accuracy. And no one feeding them self out side of a rigorous study where all food is measured and provided can measure calories/ carbon in with any accuracy for more than a few days. Long term weight is dictated by hormonal balance of the body.

Carbs are king is true for the racers at the sharp end of the pro/open field. This is not up for debate. It is true. For the vast, vast majority of racers and riders I think (and have a large pool of anecdotal evidence to support it) that a low carb diet is better/ faster/ healthier.

Then there is the next question, and I have my answer for it, but real studies and proof still elude us. Are the people who are winning and eating carbs less susceptible to the negative effects of carbs and there for can more efficiently burn this fuel source? There is a big difference between the physiology of the top dogs and the mid pack. Even the mid pack of the Leadville 100, while they are elite athletes, they are not nearly the same as the top 10. In my experience drawing nutritional advice from someone with very different physiology as yourself is not a good road to go down. Exercise and training can be pretty well carried from one person to another. For nutrition this is simply not the case. Genetic differences, gut biome and our own interpretations of nutritional information make what works for one person unlikely to give the same results in another. My take is that the really fast racers have different abilities to burn and manage carbs than the mid pack. And that while the people who win the race do so by eating large quantities of simple carbs, the mid pack racers will be faster and healthier on a low (not no carb) carb diet and race program.

Likely different advice for different athletes. And I hope I'm not coming across as stand offish. I'm always looking for more info and new data points. If you are doing ultra endurance events and fighting for a top finish then you have very different physiology than me. I can do 10-12 hrs and go for a respectable finish. Podium is not on my radar. I'm just trying to show a different perspective that is based on elite athletes but not off the few at the very sharp end of the sport.


----------



## jbell (Oct 2, 2009)

Keep in mind that if your talking about the races I think (Pats & Great Glenn) there are some tough punchy climbs which demand some high intensity efforts to get up, these my be the problem on a Keto fueling strategy. Not to mention that IMO if your fueling with protein the digestive requirements are way more taxing on your body that a simple sugar (carbohydrate) fueling strategy. I have not gone into ketosis for extended periods and tried to fuel and race that way but I have done a lot of fueling test to include high fat and fat with protein strategies and each time I do I induce a horrible bonk. But that is just me, sample size of 1...

Give me a shout sometime and we will do a “social distancing” ride, especially after the trails open up in NH we should go do some pre-race testing! I hope you and yours are well John.


----------



## MaineLotus (Jun 27, 2016)

Hey Jesse,

Hope all is well with you and your daughters. I think you're right and integrating some carbs into my diet, particularly for training and race day is going to be key. The thread has been a good learning exercise for me to understand fueling and how this all works with different intensity levels. Although it sounds like Keto isn't going to work for high intensity efforts, it has been great every day diet to get my weight back in check, at least to improve on last year.

Yes, let's ride when the trails open up. At this point, I'd be surprised if Pats isn't canceled. I hear CBCC is on the verge of canceling - I hope that isn't true. Do you ride Bond Brook? Maybe we can meet there for some rides.


----------



## Timon (May 11, 2008)

calories in/out works for people with self control and people who understand what healthy food is and what caloric density is. it's why gastric bypass works. it's why anorexic people die. i eat 4-5k+ calories a day because i bike 20hrs a week. if i stop riding 20hrs a week, my 'calories out' go way the hell down and if i continue to eat 5k calories a day my weight goes way the hell up. if i want to lose weight, i eat more potatoes and carrots and green things, maybe eat a little less of them and do more fasted riding. if i want to fuel a lot and gain weight while bulking/lifting at the gym and make sure i never bonk while on the bike i eat more pasta and bread and protein.

part of training on a bike, whether it's at the pointy end or not, is to train your body to deal with nutrition. that means training it to be able to take on and process tons of carbs while racing at high intensity, but also training in a glycogen depleted state to force your body to ride faster in that state and to build bigger glycogen stores for next time so you don't have to go there again. all the science is there for that stuff, and to discount it as only applicable to a select genetically gut gifted is wrong.


----------



## jbell (Oct 2, 2009)

MaineLotus said:


> Hey Jesse,
> 
> Hope all is well with you and your daughters. I think you're right and integrating some carbs into my diet, particularly for training and race day is going to be key. The thread has been a good learning exercise for me to understand fueling and how this all works with different intensity levels. Although it sounds like Keto isn't going to work for high intensity efforts, it has been great every day diet to get my weight back in check, at least to improve on last year.
> 
> Yes, let's ride when the trails open up. At this point, I'd be surprised if Pats isn't canceled. I hear CBCC is on the verge of canceling - I hope that isn't true. Do you ride Bond Brook? Maybe we can meet there for some rides.


I do ride BB, have you heard of the trail conditions there (those trails seem to hold water). I have been riding in Bath and these trails are in good condition as long as you are willing to walk around some small swampy areas.

My daughters are doing great! I have been getting them out on some long road rides (30-40 miles) on their mountain bikes this spring.

I really hope Carrabassett doesn't cancel!! That is a great race and I know the guys who put it on and they are great people.

Give me a shout anytime if you want to get together and ride.


----------



## MaineLotus (Jun 27, 2016)

BB isn't open yet, but I'm thinking it could be soon with a good drying week of sun, warmth and wind. Sounds like your daughters are doing great, 30-40 miles is impressive for kids on a mtn bike! Looking forward to getting out, let's stay in touch and ride when conditions are ready.


----------



## jbell (Oct 2, 2009)

Sounds good


----------



## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

MaineLotus said:


> Started on a Keto diet end of last December and so far it's been great. I've lost weight and energy levels are very stable, more so than using carbs as energy.
> 
> Anyone here with Keto diet / endurance racing experiences? Signed up for two races this year (single speed category), one is a 24hr race - approx. 9 miles/900ft elevation per lap.


Here is a link to a multi-year long discussion about this topic going on over in the nutrition forum. 
https://forums.mtbr.com/nutrition-hydration/riding-ketogenic-diet-whos-doing-910379.html

I've been doing the keto thing for 2.5yrs now. Its pretty cool to see how much more info is coming available now in the cycling world regarding this topic. Back when I was researching the move it was no where near as common as it is now. I gleaned a good bit of my info from the ultra running crowd as best I could.

I don't have the time to get into it here at the moment, but a lot of my info was chronicled over in the nutrition thread. For me...my discovery was that the hype was pretty real. I've been able to head out on a 3 to 5 hr group road ride 'fasted' and not need to eat anything (other than my water and hydration solution). I mention road ride, because there are noticeable punchy moments during the effort. All that said, I found my best solution was to consume a hammer gel pack early in the ride and that would allow me to have access to high-end glucose base energy, but it would be completely burned off by the time I got back home (fully in ketosis).

Lately, I've not been riding as much but I can tell my body has complete access to the duality (glucose/ketosis) I have created. I can tell pretty easily when I'm in and out of ketosis. And my move back and forth (for every day life) is pretty simple and quick (when I end up with a little too many carbs..i.e. occasional hamburger bun, or too many sweet potatoes, etc..) All that said, I prolly live in ketosis 80% of the time as a life-style when I'm not riding/training as much.

Cheers,
CJB


----------



## nikihanks (Jan 10, 2021)

I've struggled with my weight all my life, and it's safe to say that I've tried a lot of diets. Only this diet helped me: Custom Keto Diet Video
The only diet that I managed to adhere to, and the weight began to decline.
Unlike other diets, in which I feel hungry all day and constantly think about food, this diet completely eliminated this, I never feel hungry with this way of eating!
I am using my personalized diet plan for 4 weeks and I have lost 14 pounds, which is pretty incredible actually. it's amazing to watch my body turn into something I'm really proud of and not something I've always tried to hide.
I would definitely recommend anyone trying to lose weight to try these customized diet plans as they have really been a godsend for me.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Anyone follow the Vegan Cyclist on the YouTubes? Pretty sure he's a keto dude. May be a good resource?


----------



## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

Crankout said:


> Anyone follow the *Vegan Cyclist* on the YouTubes? Pretty sure he's a* keto dude*. May be a good resource?


that would be an oxymoron


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

theMISSIONARY said:


> that would be an oxymoron


How so?


----------



## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> How so?


your not going to get much in the way of fats from plants ..... oh yay I'm going to have Avocado for the 100th time today!

Keto is fairly limiting to begin with then cutting it down even more by being an idiot umm Vegan isn't going to help


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

theMISSIONARY said:


> your not going to get much in the way of fats from plants ..... oh yay I'm going to have Avocado for the 100th time today!
> 
> Keto is fairly limiting to begin with then cutting it down even more by being an idiot umm Vegan isn't going to help


2 avocados have more fat than one serving of steak.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

It's possible to be keto vegan but it would be very difficult. If you start following the vegan blogs or vegan "experts", they generally encourage lots of fruits and very little fat. Even olive oil is discouraged by some vegans as they believe there is some sort of scientific revisionism about olive oil being good for the heart. And vegans generally are not as fearful of sugar as keto folks. High fat and high sugar do not mix well. How many advocados a day does someone want to eat?

On the other hand, the keto community is severely anti sugar. Some are even afraid of fruit. And they have their own revisionism through their claims that saturated fat is good for you and this information has been suppressed by some fort of medical/food industry conspiracy.

Folks, just avoid extreme diets. Eat food that is that is fresh rather than comes in a box. It's not that complicated. I have done both vegan and keto and they do not outperform something sensible like a mediterranean diet both in terms of weight loss and sports performance. Extreme diets "work" because they are just indirect ways of implementing calorie restriction. But if you eat a whole food diet with lots of fiber, water, and sufficient protein that is low in calorie density, it achieves the same thing and is a lot healthier. See the diet videos by Dylan Johnson or Will Girling. Sensible, moderate, and science based.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

theMISSIONARY said:


> that would be an oxymoron


Actually, my error. He was talking of intermittent fasting as a way of using fat as energy, vs. sugar. The goal is similar, but I don't hear him talking of any significant reduction in carbs straight-up.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Dylan Johnson has some good information about this that's directly relevant to mountain bike racers.

Qualification: I've used intermittent fasting, as well as completing a 5-day water fast in order to lose weight. In my opinion the Keto diet is a fad diet that's a perversion of what you should be doing to incur ketosis: *fasting*. That said, I'm against fasted training as Dylan Johnson and others prove this has negative effects.

Entering ketosis while fasting is good. Your body digests and re-generates degenerated cells, and cleans out your liver. Everyone reading this thread should try a 48-72 hour fast for this healthy reason. However you should fuel your body for training, and carbs are the best fuel for racing. This is in line with science.


----------



## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> 2 avocados have more fat than one serving of steak.


keep the steak...pork spare ribs

avocado tastes....ok at best


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I like Dylan Johnson's vid series on the YT's. Science-based and the kid can crush it on course.


----------

