# #5 SoFat



## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

This is my fifth frame, first was 29er which is POS, but I'm still riding it, about 300h since march . Number 2 was a fixed gear bike, I did about 4000km during the summer. Third was a gravel grinder, actually sits in the basement fully welded without paint or parts, no riding. Fourth frame was a ÜOS lugged road bike, not much riding, but liked it so much that I sold my carbon road bike.

Now it's time for #5 which is a fat bike.
Nothing too wild, 70/73 angles with 50mm rake fork and 460mm CS. Clown shoes with Bud's front and rear, 1x10 drivetrain with RaceFace Next SL cranks.

First I build the fork.

































Next step is to weld and braze the frame.


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## RCP FAB (Jun 15, 2011)

Love the looks of the fork lugs! Can't wait to see the fork on the frame.


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## adarn (Aug 11, 2009)

Sick! 1X?


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Yes, 1x10 with 11-36 cassette and 26t or 28t chainring. I see no reasons for front derailleur when there is as small as 26t narrow wide chainrings available and I want to keep drivetrain as simple as possible.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

What's the A-C on your fork? I have Fatty frame #2 rolling around in my head and I think a "proper" length fork with more rake than most commercially available fork would help with some of the fatty handling issues.


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

The A-C is 453mm. I did not want fork that's "too long".
I did even consider 55mm rake, but I ditched that idea. Although, I'm now thinking of building alternative fork with same A-C and 55mm rake.

What is your "proper" fork length?


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

"Proper" being not suspension corrected for a frame that will never see a suspension fork.


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## bikecycology (Apr 26, 2010)

Awesome stuff, keep it coming. How much does your fork weigh? What guage tubing did you use for the legs?


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

G-reg said:


> "Proper" being not suspension corrected for a frame that will never see a suspension fork.


Yeah, I figured that out after posting. This frame will never see suspension fork.



bikecycology said:


> Awesome stuff, keep it coming. How much does your fork weigh? What guage tubing did you use for the legs?


The fork with uncut steerer weighs 1208g, steerer is 350mm from the crown race seat to top, so about 150mm extra.
The legs are 1", but I will leave it up to you to decide what gauge tubing to use.


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Small progress today, the front triangle and the chainstays are tacked and dropouts are brazed.

I should have done the chainstays differently, but at least I know now what to do next time.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

J_K said:


> I should have done the chainstays differently, but at least I know now what to do next time.


How so?


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

TrailMaker said:


> How so?


Bend less to avoid over bending when dimpled and offset mitering to the BB.


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Everything except the seatstays are now welded.
I ended up spending way too much time positioning the frame on the vise, so I need to get good solid workstand for making positioning easier.

My best welds so far, but still lots of room for improvement.
This is first frame I have back purged and it seems to help a lot.


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Very nice!! Welds look great! 
That fork is awesome. HUGE!
I just did that non-offsetting of the chainstays thing on my 23rd frame...the newb mistakes never stop (at least for me...). Chainstays are the hardest part still for me...a struggle every time.


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks!
The fork is really huge, the same can be said about the rear end.

For me, the hardest part is yet to come, the seatstays. I found that these round chainstays are a lot easier to do than the oval chainstays. Also keep in mind, I'm doing all the mitering by hand using templates.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Welds look great!!


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Not much happening here.
The HT is reamed and faced, the BB is also chased and faced. I really love that Cyclus BB tool.
The seatstay are also mitered, they proved to be as difficult as I had thought it would be.

One thing I forgot to mention earlier.
Biggest improvement on welding was changing to weld clockwise, previously I have mainly welded counterclockwise. When welding clockwise it is much easier to focus the arc on the unmitered tube.


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## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

+1 on the Cyclus BB facer/reamer, I got one after wasting money on an Ice tools one that broke after 2 frames. Welds look quite nice, not too hot, not too cool, good filler amount
What welder settings are you using?
I didn't tackle a fat bike until # 15, all those bends and getting the tires and the cranks and the chainrings to clear was a lot of work! The fat was easier than the knard though.
That was tight.
cheers
andy walker


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

About welder settings, no pulse, no foot pedal other than on/off switch. 35-40amps all joints except the SS-ST where I use about 27amps. I bet you can't use these setting on any other machine than my cheap chinese welder, I think it welds hotter than panel says.

All the welding is done now, still need to cap the chainstays and the seatstays and add the cable guides and the bridge on the seatstays.
Welding the seatstay was quite easy as there's some much room aroud the joints.

welded


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## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

Yep, the settings don't match my Miller. I use 135amps for almost everything, 123a to go for something thin. 1pps, so whatever you're doing, keep it up! Nice looking welds however we get there.
cheers
andy walker


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

The chainstays are capped, thanks for Clockwork Bikes for the idea!


















Still need to add the seatstay bridge.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I think the SS bridge is useful, but I do not plan to bridge the CS on any future Fat builds. Just collects too much leaf/mud/mung/snow when condition are soft. Contributes to FD icing, BB contamination and general messiness in the BB area. Not worth the hassle and I'm not sure it does anything substantive except take a lot of time and collect debris!


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Yep, no plans for the CS bridge, but definitely needs the SS bridge.


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

The frame is ready for the powder coating.

Silver brazed the SS bridge, to keep the heat minimum and to avoid drawing the dropout faces inwards.


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## FTMN (May 10, 2010)

Photos aren't showing up... how about a link to your Photobucket account?


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Sorry, bandwidth exceeded.
I'll replace the links later, maybe tomorrow.

The frame weighs 2135g without the paint.

Still waiting the frame to get painted so, I started building another fork, same A-C and rake is now 55mm.


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Pics are now rehosted


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Looks awesome! Nice on the capped stays, love that look. The seatstay bridge turned out great too!
Hope you're getting snow to ride when that's built up!


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm still missing the crank arm spacers, hopefully they're here on monday.


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## bikecycology (Apr 26, 2010)

*Suhweet*



J_K said:


> I'm still missing the crank arm spacers, hopefully they're here on monday.


This thing is very nice looking. I love the clownshoes front and rear. Keep us posted when you get it rolling. What kind of weight are you at?


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

bikecycology said:


> This thing is very nice looking. I love the clownshoes front and rear. Keep us posted when you get it rolling. What kind of weight are you at?


Thanks. I will show the color once the build is complete. Yes, clown shoes front and rear, also Buds front and rear. I'm running them tubeless.
If you mean my weigh, I'm about 180lbs. The build should be around 32lbs.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

Looks sano! Start doing face exercises now to prepare for the perma-grin. Fat Roolz.


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## bikecycology (Apr 26, 2010)

Are those Jones' bend h bars?


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

bikecycology said:


> Are those Jones' bend h bars?


No, they are Answer ProTaper Carbon 720 Enduro 20/20, I've been wanting to try them for some time now.


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

The build is now complete. The color is RAL4010 with sparkle clear coat.


























More than enough clearance.


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## bikecycology (Apr 26, 2010)

J_K said:


> The build is now complete. The color is RAL4010 with sparkle clear coat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rock on dude!!!! :cornut::cornut::cornut:

That is damn sexy. Get some shots of it out in the wild. Great job


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

bikecycology said:


> Rock on dude!!!! :cornut::cornut::cornut:
> 
> That is damn sexy. Get some shots of it out in the wild. Great job


Thanks!

I'll get some more shots once I'm able to ride it, great timing of being sick first time in almost two years 

BTW. it weighs 14.56kg


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## bikecycology (Apr 26, 2010)

J_K said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I'll get some more shots once I'm able to ride it, great timing of being sick first time in almost two years
> 
> BTW. it weighs 14.56kg


Very respectful. Turned out awesome. Looking back, the chainstays looked to be made of 4130. What did you use for the seatstays?


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Beautiful! What a classic color! You should be proud, it turned out great. If they make a Big Fat Bud you'll be ready!
Definitely give an update on the ride in the wild. I'm interested in what you think of those cranks, they are on my list of wants...very cool setup.


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## bowtiguy (Sep 14, 2004)

190 rear and cranks on this build?

Interested in doing a 44 HT, paragon slider version?


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

bikecycology said:


> Very respectful. Turned out awesome. Looking back, the chainstays looked to be made of 4130. What did you use for the seatstays?


The seatstays are 5/8"x0.035" 4130 and the chainstays are 3/4"x0.035" 4130.



Meriwether said:


> Beautiful! What a classic color! You should be proud, it turned out great. If they make a Big Fat Bud you'll be ready!
> Definitely give an update on the ride in the wild. I'm interested in what you think of those cranks, they are on my list of wants...very cool setup.


Thanks!
I'm looking forward riding it, luckily there's little bit snow now and lakes are frozen so plenty to ride.
Overall impresion of the cranks is great, seems to be really stiff and light, whole set with the BB and 28t chainring was 615g. The BB feels little bit cheap compared to the crankarms, plastic BB cup spacers are something I'm not a fan of but I didn't have any aluminium spacers available so had to use them. Rotor BSA30 bottom bracket is much nicer quality, I need to take it out of my road bike and measure if it can be used. I will report how they ride once I'm able to ride, this should be my main ride for coming months.


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

bowtiguy said:


> 190 rear and cranks on this build?
> 
> Interested in doing a 44 HT, paragon slider version?


Yes, 190mm rear and raceface 190 cranks. I could have used 170 cranks, but I wanted frame to be future proof if there's wider tires available.

You will find custom builder much nearer you than I'm as I'm in Finland


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Well here's a couple of green chicklees for the bubbliuos fatty! Turn out great!


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## FTMN (May 10, 2010)

The pics aren't showing up. Or is it just me?


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Yep;

That's really sharp. Very nicely done. Have you ever ridden a Fatty? A bit different ride, mostly in the steering. You also get used to making frequent "suspension adjustments" (tire pressure ). I'd very much like to try the On One type fork rake like you have here to see how it compares. Might buy a pair of their just released carbon forks to try it. The Suomi on the Daily Pics Thread have been lamenting your lack of snow over there. Hopefully that rectifies itself in time for your maiden voyage.

Kippis!


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks TrailMaker!
No, I have not ridden a fatbike. I'm not sure what to expect, but I'm looking forward it  I'm planning to play with tire pressures a lot, a quick few hundred meters test ride says that I can lower the pressure from 0.45bar. I run my tires tubeless.
I was bit worried about the snow conditions, but it's getting a little better.

It's nice that you speak finnish 
Kippis


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

FTMN said:


> The pics aren't showing up. Or is it just me?


Do you still have problems seeing the pics?


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

J_K said:


> It's nice that you speak finnish  Kippis


Ha.... no...

I have just about exhausted my Finnish vocabulary right there! However, when you have a very-significant-other with the surname Paulaharju, a proud Suomalainen, you pick up a few bits along the way.

May I now unofficially welcome you to the Fatbike Forum! :thumbsup:


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Ok, I went for the first ride today, only two and half hours on the easy terrain as I didn't feel that good yet.
What to say, very much different than anything else I have ridden. At the same time I wanted it to have slower and quicker steering, quicker mostly. And that is with the 55mm rake fork, not the original lugged fork with 50mm rake. The cranks are wide and I mean WIDE, I need some more time get used to them, 66mm wider q-factor than on my 29er. Gearing is spot on, 28x11-36. Climbs very well, but Bud in the rear has some traction issues as expected.
I need to ride more to get back in shape and I think this bike makes me want to ride more and longer as it opens more routes to ride on.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

J_K said:


> Ok, I went for the first ride today, only two and half hours on the easy terrain as I didn't feel that good yet.
> What to say, very much different than anything else I have ridden. At the same time I wanted it to have slower and quicker steering, quicker mostly. And that is with the 55mm rake fork, not the original lugged fork with 50mm rake.


Fatbike steering takes some time to discern, as there is a lot going on. You have to learn to differentiate between steering inertia caused by the gyroscopic effect of that heavy wheel/tire, that which is caused by surface friction of that large low pressure tire, and frame/fork geo. Different tires also have different steering characteristics. You do get used to most of it, if you give it a chance. Occasionally I still am annoyed by self steer, but not that much anymore. I usually take it as a sign that I am off my game that day, which seems to be pretty accurate.



> The cranks are wide and I mean WIDE, I need some more time get used to them, 66mm wider q-factor than on my 29er.


I never noticed for a moment, with a 100mm BB. If anything, the wide Q fits my big frame just fine. I know it is a problem fr some folks, but in general I think it is similar to the steering in that it fades from notice over time.



> Gearing is spot on, 28x11-36. Climbs very well, but Bud in the rear has some traction issues as expected.


 You will find a tremendous variation is snow conditions, and that this will have a huge effect on your ability to ride. I tried yesterday in only moderately packed 14" that had been in the sun all day, and it was a huge failure. For purposes of discovery alone, I very much wanted to get out on it this morning in its cold dry state after the 10*F (-12C) night, but I'm too lame & lazy from 2 days of snow shoeing!



> I need to ride more to get back in shape and I think this bike makes me want to ride more and longer as it opens more routes to ride on.


You have already discovered the essence and singular beauty of the Fatbike experience. Good show. You also want to ride more to show off that beauty!!


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

TrailMaker said:


> Fatbike steering takes some time to discern, as there is a lot going on. You have to learn to differentiate between steering inertia caused by the gyroscopic effect of that heavy wheel/tire, that which is caused by surface friction of that large low pressure tire, and frame/fork geo. Different tires also have different steering characteristics. You do get used to most of it, if you give it a chance. Occasionally I still am annoyed by self steer, but not that much anymore. I usually take it as a sigh that I am off my game that day, which seems to pretty accurate.


Yep, you're quite right there. It takes time to get used to it. No self steering so far.



TrailMaker said:


> I never noticed for a moment, with a 100mm BB. If anything, the wide Q fits my big frame just fine. I know it is a problem fr some folks, but in general I think it is similar to the steering in that it fades from notice over time.


My cranks are even wider than moonlader versions, these have 222mm Q. At the start of the ride my knees were pointing outwards, but at the end of the ride they were back to normal and pointing inwards. That's a good sign.



TrailMaker said:


> You will find a tremendous variation is snow conditions, and that this will have a huge effect on your ability to ride. I tried yesterday in only moderately packed 14" that had been in the sun all day, and it was a huge failure. For purposes of discovery alone, I very much wanted to get out on it this morning in its cold dry state after the 10*F (-12C) night, but I'm too lame & lazy from 2 days of snow shoeing!


I should have wrote that the gearing is spot on so far. No problems on 6" of snow and I was middle of the cassette. Mostly I was able to use higher gear than on my 29er.
We had 0°C, and it was raining sleet 



TrailMaker said:


> You have already discovered the essence and singular beauty of the Fatbike experience. Good show. You also want to ride more to show off that beauty!!


Yes, I was more relaxed when riding than ever, no rush to get back.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

JK;

As mentioned, there are many types - and variables associated with each - of steering character in Fatties. Self steer - as I define it - is mostly surface dependent, when speaking of the tire drag sort. Obviously it is less apparent in the snow, super low pressures excepted - and is most notable in dry/high grip conditions. The gyroscopic type is obviously most notable at speed. It's not a question of if, but when you will experience it. Learning to decipher between the various causes and outcomes takes time and study, and is somewhat key to knowing what corrections you might undertake to improve it. 

I have not tried anything other than old style downhill type 100mm BBs used on 170 builds. At the price of the ones you have used, I'm not likely to stray from what I know, either. Yikes! Outside of my budget. For myself, I doubt the width would bother me, but I know that some people can't get used to the width at all, suffering physical pain. Really too bad for them!

You will also find that snow that is perfect at the start of a ride seems to "go away" as the temps rise, and vice-versa. Day-to-day, hour-to-hour, sun-into-shade even. The closest thing I can liken it to is bowling, for anyone experienced with that game. The only thing you can usually count on is that things will change, and you have to learn how to adapt either your style and/or your equipment. Sometimes, you just can't at all!

Whatever, make sure to ride the snot out of that beauty!


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Cracked chainstay . After welding this joint I think I was thinking this is going to crack.

I need to fix it somehow and I'm not sure what is best option, maybe replacing whole chainstay.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

PASKAA!

That's a bummer. Been cracked for quite a spell, eh? Only the last couple of MMs are fresh. Almost certainly an undercut puddle in the CS. I can't see doing much else but replacing the stay. Too nice a bike to cobble!

Makes me think about my own frames. I have regretted putting in a CS bridge, but... maybe not. They sure do catch a lot of crud, but seeing this, maybe that extra load is worth it? I have ridden the flat crap out of mine - all season pounding - and no problems. The next bike has been rolling around in my head lately. Hmmmm.....

(Finnish _color_ kindly provided by my Sweet Suomalainen)


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## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

Dang! thanks for the update however. I've been using deda 29r+ stays and doing extra bending/dimpling. Guess I'll be waiting until the first failure to see if they are any good.
cheers
andy walker


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Yep, it has been cracked some months now, I actually wanted to see how the crack evolves. I'm also thinking an undercut is causing this and that acute miter angle doesn't help either. 

I will offset miter new chainstay to the BB and bend it differently. I might even add a CS bridge.

I'll try to fix it later this week so I can ride it.

Pics to come when the fix is done.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I think I'd worry less about the tubes and more about the weld. I tried to keep about 20mm distance between my welds and the end of the BB housing. I think my CS bends were somewhere around 27*. My welding is not nearly up to even your standards, but one thing that might have worked in my favor here - and part of the reason my welds are so gloppy - is that I was using 3/32" rod. I never even considered it, but in hindsight, certainly 1/16" or .032 would have required less heat and given a better flow. I simply used what the local welding supply carried. However, I was also able to very easily achieve generous fillets, and this might be helpful in these areas.

In any event, I am nobody's idea of a hammerhead, but I am pretty big and ride my bikes hard. I would skip the stay bridge without hesitation next time, but would not discount the notion of this type of failure either. I'd take that chance for less mung/slush buildup!

Onnea, and keep us posted!


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> I think I'd worry less about the tubes and more about the weld.


Yes, I'm not worried about the tubes, it's most definitely weld issue.



TrailMaker said:


> I tried to keep about 20mm distance between my welds and the end of the BB housing. I think my CS bends were somewhere around 27*. My welding is not nearly up to even your standards, but one thing that might have worked in my favor here - and part of the reason my welds are so gloppy - is that I was using 3/32" rod. I never even considered it, but in hindsight, certainly 1/16" or .032 would have required less heat and given a better flow. I simply used what the local welding supply carried. However, I was also able to very easily achieve generous fillets, and this might be helpful in these areas.


My welding is not that good but I keep trying to get better, I keep strugling on some of the acute angles.
I'm using 1mm ER312 filler rod and would have liked to use at least .045" rod on the CS to the BB weld, but didn't have any available. I'll use next time .045" 880t rod as I got some from the Henry James.

I cut the old chainstay of and did rough clean up, hopefully most of the work is done tomorrow. The bottom bracket cups are still in place as I forgot the correct bottom bracket tool at home.




























I have also started to build another fatbike for skinnier tires, but it still will take ~115mm tires. Shorter chainstays with adjustable dropouts, but nothing too extreme otherwise.


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Almost done, only some clean-up to do.

The bend matches the drawing.









Better than the failed weld, but still a lot of room for improvement.


















New driveside chainstay has different profile and is also offset to the centreline of the BB.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

The welds look good to me a little paint and no one would even know!!


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

My...

... but isn't someone motivated? Must be snow in Finland this year! 

Interesting that your bend is nearly identical to mine at 27*, yet mine being for 100mm BB and 3.8 tires.

Interesting side story from there; When I laid mine out for The Kroozer, and contemplated the longest length of rearward projecting stay I could get (for heel clearance), at the 11th-and-1/2 hour, after already starting the build and realizing my planned path would not work, I stumbled upon the idea of coming in from the back side of the DO tab. I worked out my clearances for rotor and cogset, and then drew the bend in the tube. I subsequently measured what I had simply drawn to fit, and it was dead on ... 27*!

Welds look pretty nice!


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

TrailMaker said:


> My...
> 
> ... but isn't someone motivated? Must be snow in Finland this year!


That's right, as we now have some snow it really motivated me to get this done now.



TrailMaker said:


> Interesting that your bend is nearly identical to mine at 27*, yet mine being for 100mm BB and 3.8 tires.
> 
> Interesting side story from there; When I laid mine out for The Kroozer, and contemplated the longest length of rearward projecting stay I could get (for heel clearance), at the 11th-and-1/2 hour, after already starting the build and realizing my planned path would not work, I stumbled upon the idea of coming in from the back side of the DO tab. I worked out my clearances for rotor and cogset, and then drew the bend in the tube. I subsequently measured what I had simply drawn to fit, and it was dead on ... 27*!
> 
> Welds look pretty nice!


Main reason why 27* bend works is those 222mm q-factor cranks, I still added small dimpled on the new chainstay.
BTW. I really like The Kroozer chainstays!

Still have ~10mm tire to the chainstay clearance and the crankarm clearance is now better than it was before.









Needs new paint, but that can wait.


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Pink bike is now retired.

This one replaced it. 415-435mm chainstay length, and only for max. ~110mm rear tires.


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## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

Very nice! I bet you like that 415mm cs length, should be a really fun bike to ride.
andy walker


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I really like the green with pink accent. Sharp! I don't suppose you notice any untoward result from the ST-to-DT attachment?


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

afwalker said:


> Very nice! I bet you like that 415mm cs length, should be a really fun bike to ride.
> andy walker


Thanks!

That CS length was my main goal on this frame and I think it works perfectly. It's a really fun bike to ride, I'm impressed how well and easy it climbs.



TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> I really like the green with pink accent. Sharp! I don't suppose you notice any untoward result from the ST-to-DT attachment?


Thanks!

Sorry, but it's candy teal with purple 

On my first ride I didn't notice any untoward results from the ST-DT attachment. This is actually second time I have done it that way. This I used True Temper 1-1/2" 1/.7/1 downtube.

A few build pics


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Frame turned out great! What are the ST's made with?


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

todwil said:


> Frame turned out great! What are the ST's made with?


Thanks!

The seatstay are three piece Garro style, 5/8" tapering to 1/2". Top part is 5/8"x.035" then 5/8"x.058" sleeve machined to fit inside the 5/8"x.035" tube and then the lower part is 1/2"x0.035". Silver brazed and then bend.


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