# Great video on who E-bikes are for



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

I am sure this will start (yet again) a lively debate but this video makes great points about who a e-bike is good for.






Good take aways from the video

* if you're not racing it is not cheating.
* mtb is about fun
* two friends can ride more thanks to the e-bike.


----------



## pedalingkiwi (Feb 21, 2006)

that is SO my situation - can't keep up with riding mates on climbs (thanks to a heart condition), but shred like the best of them heading down. Now (with Focus Jam2) to ride much less waiting around, and more time on the singletrack = no downside, just more riding. Its almost embarrassing but when you finish a really fun trail you can say, "wow, lets do another lap eh!" Wild horses wouldn't have got me doing that before e-assist !


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

cliff notes:
squamish rider gets easily discouraged by climbs, with a peculiar habit of suddenly dismounting and pushing/walking
is very skilled on the descents (from park riding)

gets on the Norco emtb
rides pedally stuff that he once dreaded
giggles from the power assist; even the guy getting a tow giggles
claims to only need eco mode, at least on the downhill
7000 bucks is a lot, but it's so good that he would sell a quiver of 3 bikes for one, if those 3 sold for enough to afford it (financially held back)
"work your ass off on a $1500 bike, or have fun on a $7000 bike"
justifies that it removes excuses, being more open to ideas like climbing to the "top of the world"

My takeaway... $7000, with questionably lame geo (in my size, Med). That, and it'd likely put pressure on others, who I ride with, to get one too. Pass. 

With a bit of refinement, maybe I'll reconsider. Still waiting for info and reviews of that Lapierre eZesty, which may reignite my interest since it's between an emtb and AM bike (but likely too rich for me). Until that ebike that I'm looking for comes out, I'm not going to bother getting involved in the controversy. There's far worse to be worried about. Heck horses, hunters, hikers carrying big sticks or whatever, homeless, groups of "punks" (or other shady looking folks), and off leash dogs would bother me more than someone on a class 1 emtb on the trails. I have doubts that they're any worse than a regular mtn biking novice. That, and the local laws need to be more supportive of emtbs (class 1). I figure that the more they're talked about, the more the whole truth about 'em spreads, and cements their place in the world.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

pedalingkiwi said:


> that is SO my situation - can't keep up with riding mates on climbs (thanks to a heart condition), but shred like the best of them heading down. Now (with Focus Jam2) to ride much less waiting around, and more time on the singletrack = no downside, just more riding. Its almost embarrassing but when you finish a really fun trail you can say, "wow, lets do another lap eh!" Wild horses wouldn't have got me doing that before e-assist !


So just another lie by the ebike crowd. You have a heart condition so you can't ride a real bike with your mates. I have heard on here countless times that heart rates are as high or higher when riding a moped. Which is it?


----------



## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

then why are you hanging out here with 'the ebike crowd' if you hate them, and call them liars? There are at least 20 other subforums on this MTB site for you to go find something you like.


----------



## Vrock (Jan 24, 2004)

Norco **** it up with the Sight VLT, they went with a carbon frame and no aluminium options. Light Bikes are nice, but on an E-Bike it's a bit different, you can set it up with strong parts that last longer and cost a lot less. Even hardtails are nice and they are really affordable.


----------



## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

The price on the Norco is relatively reasonable compared to competing bikes. That price is $7,000cdn, which is only $5300USD. I doubt there is a less expensive carbon fullie eMTB in the same league of quality and componentry. And yet the market is full of choices starting with basic junky e-hardtails for under $2k, up to the Giant Dirt-e at $3000ish and then up into fullies above that.

But I agree something is wrong in the world when a fairly simple thing like a 50 lb eMTB costs nearly as much as a complex and amazing 350lb superbike motorcycle offering 100x the power (and nearly the price of the Zero e-motorcycle). However a lot of that goes back to the outrageous prices of non-e mountain bikes and components in general - made and marketed in a different way than bicycles; they get the price people will pay, not what the cost to efficiently manufacture plus profit should be.

2018 CBR600RR Options - Honda Powersports
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-ds/
https://www.bikesale.com/pivot-shuttle-emtb-bike-2019.aspx


----------



## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

I wish I could understand the hatred directed towards e-bike users.

I haven't ridden an e-bike, but can't quite understand why they are hated by so many.

Do people just need time to understand that the e-bike exists before they can accept it?

Just like suspension? What a waste of time. Right?
Whoever invented USB music devices was dumb. We should all have 8-tracks.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Forest Rider said:


> I wish I could understand the hatred directed towards e-bike users.
> 
> I haven't ridden an e-bike, but can't quite understand why they are hated by so many.
> 
> ...


The answer is that they aren't bicycles and they are a threat to hard won access.


----------



## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

life behind bars said:


> The answer is that they aren't bicycles and they are a threat to hard won access.


Your wrong they are bicycles with assist time to accept that as technology advances things change it is that way with everything in life

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

life behind bars said:


> The answer is that they aren't bicycles and they are a threat to hard won access.


They are a category unto themselves. I'm a purist and not a fan of e-bikes, but they are taking hold with some folks. It makes biking much easier, essentially. It's not solely biking nor is it totally brapping.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Forest Rider said:


> I wish I could understand the hatred directed towards e-bike users.
> 
> I haven't ridden an e-bike, but can't quite understand why they are hated by so many.


Because this-



scottxpc said:


> Your wrong they are bicycles with assist time to accept that as technology advances things change it is that way with everything in life


Like a lot of people I've nothing against electric bikes but I do have a problem with them gaining access wherever bicycles are allowed under the guise of being"non-motorized".


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Interesting seeing the dislike for a tool that allows more people to enjoy the hobby. This "you have to earn the climb" is not a good reason to dislike something. 

The video has two guys that can now enjoy the hobby together, how is that a bad thing?


----------



## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

KenPsz said:


> Interesting seeing the dislike for a tool that allows more people to enjoy the hobby. This "you have to earn the climb" is not a good reason to dislike something.
> 
> The video has two guys that can now enjoy the hobby together, how is that a bad thing?


Exactly right on !

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

KenPsz said:


> Interesting seeing the dislike for a tool that allows more people to enjoy the hobby. This "you have to earn the climb" is not a good reason to dislike something.
> 
> The video has two guys that can now enjoy the hobby together, how is that a bad thing?


I don't have a horse in this race but the posts your replying to don't have anything to do with this. Bit if a non sequitur.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## hansdie (Sep 12, 2018)

Saying it another way they are bicycles with motors.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/motorcycles/motorcycles



scottxpc said:


> Your wrong they are bicycles with assist time to accept that as technology advances things change it is that way with everything in life
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

hansdie said:


> Saying it another way they are bicycles with motors.
> 
> https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/motorcycles/motorcycles


OK and????

Like the video shows they give access to trails and make riding fun so what's the problem?


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Because this-
> 
> Like a lot of people I've nothing against electric bikes but I do have a problem with them gaining access wherever bicycles are allowed under the guise of being"non-motorized".


If e-bikes do indeed cause trail shutdowns all over the place, then you are more than justified to have that opinion. Hell, maybe I'll have the same opinion too, if it happens. Until then, it's speculation. It's a few incidents here and there. Maybe it will balloon into a huge problem, maybe not. The more practical angst is against dirt bikes on trails: they can and do cause a lot more problems and damage. Big signs at one of my riding areas now that say no dirt bikes. The neighbors hate the noise, pollution, and ground destruction they cause. E-bikes do not fit into the same category in any of the three problems above that dirt bikes cause. 40-60 lb bikes that make little noise and no pollution vs. offroad motorcycles. Is it that hard to see the differences?

Again, if e-bikes somehow mess up most or all trail access for normal bikes, that is a horrible outcome, but it would be an arbitrary, perception-based outcome, not a practical one.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> OK and????
> 
> Like the video shows they give access to trails and make riding fun so what's the problem?


"They" don't have access everywhere. It's those pesky rules, laws and regulations.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I didn't watch the whole vid but the first 10 words are a lie.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

life behind bars said:


> "They" don't have access everywhere. It's those pesky rules, laws and regulations.


The trails where I live and in the video e-mtb have access so again what's the problem if it gets more people into the hobby and lets other people have more fun?


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Forest Rider said:


> I wish I could understand the hatred directed towards e-bike users.
> 
> I haven't ridden an e-bike, but can't quite understand why they are hated by so many.


Ever study world history? About all the religious wars there were and how many millions died from them? If so, then you'll understand that the greatest hatred is between different factions within the same religion or genre. Two sects or factions of the same religion or in this case genre (bicycles) may hate each other much more than they hate other outside 'alien' or 'barbaric' peoples on their borders. It's like two brothers hating each other more than hating the loud and obnoxious next door neighbor. They can stand the neighbor but they cannot stand each other.

The perceived (imagined) threat is that soon, all trails will be flooded with e-bikers going much faster than normal, hikers and dog-walkers will start complaining more, and then all trails will be shut down for all bikes. It reminds me a bit of the current immigration debate, although I'll leave it at that and not go into all of the many, many parallels.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> I didn't watch the whole vid but the first 10 words are a lie.


His name is not Brig or that Brig likes everything mountain biking? Curious what about those first 10 words are a lie?


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

ninjichor said:


> cliff notes:
> squamish rider gets easily discouraged by climbs, with a peculiar habit of suddenly dismounting and pushing/walking
> is very skilled on the descents (from park riding)
> 
> ...


It doesn't have to be $7000. You can do a mid-drive conversion with battery, and if needed LBS installation for around $1100. Total. On just about any aluminum-framed bike you currently own. But if you are picky about bike weight, refinement, etc., then you are right, maybe it isn't for you. Or maybe you are already having enough fun on all trails/fire roads as it is. But don't think that every e-bike is $7000, and that you need to spend $7000 to have more fun offroad.


----------



## hansdie (Sep 12, 2018)

Just was trying to clarify what these "bikes" really are. Wish people wouldn't try and hide the fact that its a bike with a motor.

No problem, it would be more fun for me if all trails were open to dirt bikes but who knows maybe the ebikes will open the path for the electric dirt bike to have access too. Because for me and I guarantee for Brig it's a lot more fun to twist a throttle than spin a crank.



KenPsz said:


> OK and????
> 
> Like the video shows they give access to trails and make riding fun so what's the problem?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> His name is not Brig or that Brig likes everything mountain biking? Curious what about those first 10 words are a lie?


"Brig loves everything about mountain biking" , quickly followed by "Brig hates climbing".


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> "Brig loves everything about mountain biking" , quickly followed by "Brig hates climbing".


Right? He likes mountain biking, but not climbing, and he likes nothing more than flow trails. Doesn't sound anything like mountain biking to me.

Also, trail access issues are much different in the U.S. than in other countries. These conversations almost always "end" with Europeans not understanding the issues faced by U.S. mountain bikers. Paul the Punter clearly does not have experience with U.S. Issues, nor does Brig appear to have any experience with real mountain biking.


----------



## hansdie (Sep 12, 2018)

Kind of funny but you exactly described what happened to mountain bikers in SF bay area by Hikers and equestrians.

MTBer, hikers and equestrians all love the outdoors so should be working together for more public access to land. But instead hikers and equestrians completely shutdown access to most trails and parks for MTBers.

So now the debate is going on to allow access for ebikes to MTB trails and the selling points for ebikes are more people on trails, going further and faster. The hikers and equestrians at the moment are saying NO WAY thats the opposite of what they want. But most ebikes look like regular bikes so they just ride illegally. My opinion is that since there no way to effectively differentiate or enforce the ebike the land managers will just start restricting access even further to bikes.

And maybe that will be the end game we all ride super light stealth e motorcycles and just poach everything because "technology".



richj8990 said:


> Ever study world history? About all the religious wars there were and how many millions died from them? If so, then you'll understand that the greatest hatred is between different factions within the same religion or genre. Two sects or factions of the same religion or in this case genre (bicycles) may hate each other much more than they hate other outside 'alien' or 'barbaric' peoples on their borders. It's like two brothers hating each other more than hating the loud and obnoxious next door neighbor. They can stand the neighbor but they cannot stand each other.
> 
> The perceived (imagined) threat is that soon, all trails will be flooded with e-bikers going much faster than normal, hikers and dog-walkers will start complaining more, and then all trails will be shut down for all bikes. It reminds me a bit of the current immigration debate, although I'll leave it at that and not go into all of the many, many parallels.


----------



## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

I run faster than dog walkers.
Bicycle riders ride faster than I run.
E Bicycles riders are faster than pedal bicycles.

I don't mind passing dog walkers (just with their dog was on a leash short enough to not close line me). I don't mind being passed by a cyclist either.

I do trail run too and recently, local trail runners are running on bike trails. I wish they didn't because 20 mph down a hill against a trail runner up the hill sounds dangerous. 

At the end of the day we all share trails, paved or dirt, and we mostly get along.

I dislike horses the most. When I am having fun on a fast downhill then have to stop due to horses it's annoying. On the flip side, the horseback rider probably hates me for scaring their horse.

I guess the point is that there will always be somebody faster than us that irritates us from 'winning'. Whatever it is that we think we are the winner of.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

hansdie said:


> Just was trying to clarify what these "bikes" really are. Wish people wouldn't try and hide the fact that its a bike with a motor.
> 
> No problem, it would be more fun for me if all trails were open to dirt bikes but who knows maybe the ebikes will open the path for the electric dirt bike to have access too. Because for me and I guarantee for Brig it's a lot more fun to twist a throttle than spin a crank.


There is a limit to what is acceptable, I think we can all agree with that.

Electric motorcycle would be a bridge too far for most people but an electric assist to get you up a trail??? To me that is fine since I hate climbing and see it as a necessary evil.

Unless your racing this hobby is supposed to be about fun.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Right? He likes mountain biking, but not climbing, and he likes nothing more than flow trails. Doesn't sound anything like mountain biking to me.
> 
> Also, trail access issues are much different in the U.S. than in other countries. These conversations almost always "end" with Europeans not understanding the issues faced by U.S. mountain bikers. Paul the Punter clearly does not have experience with U.S. Issues, nor does Brig appear to have any experience with real mountain biking.


I was thinking about this very thing actually. It does seem that the loudest against e-mtb I have seen online are from California. There is a LOT of trails and riding outside of California.

What is "real mountain biking" ???? I have never been on a mountain does that mean I don't do mountain biking?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Forest Rider said:


> I wish I could understand the hatred directed towards e-bike users.
> 
> I haven't ridden an e-bike, but can't quite understand why they are hated by so many.
> 
> ...





scottxpc said:


> Your wrong they are bicycles with assist time to accept that as technology advances things change it is that way with everything in life
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk





KenPsz said:


> There is a limit to what is acceptable, I think we can all agree with that


Yes, and we should also agree that one person's idea of what is acceptable might differ from another's.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yes, and we should also agree that one person's idea of what is acceptable might differ from another's.


Sure we can differ but when you want to ban something that is where the issues show up.
Since as the video shows there is a reasonable usage for a e-mtb that makes the hobby fun. I get why racers and those that like climbing (god knows why) would dislike e-mtb but the hobby needs people in it to thrive.

I ride with a mini-cow bell to let hikers, dogs, etc... know I'm coming. Just be polite and don't judge because you are jealous or whatever, enjoy the hobby and be happy for those that enjoy it too.


----------



## hansdie (Sep 12, 2018)

Who defines the limit? Anything capable of more than 30 mph would be a motorcycle in California.

Just need a H-52 https://www.stealthelectricbikes.com/model-range/ but maybe a little lighter and cheaper.

I not only hate climbing but I hate pedaling. Thus the reason for wanting edirtbike access.

It is supposed to be fun but when you get a $250 ticket for riding single track when it used to be legal it becomes less fun



KenPsz said:


> There is a limit to what is acceptable, I think we can all agree with that.
> 
> Electric motorcycle would be a bridge too far for most people but an electric assist to get you up a trail??? To me that is fine since I hate climbing and see it as a necessary evil.
> 
> Unless your racing this hobby is supposed to be about fun.


----------



## hansdie (Sep 12, 2018)

also should add we already have 15mph speed limits on trails 5mph when passing or blind corners. That restrictive enough to allow a electric motorcycle on the trails


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> Sure we can differ but when you want to ban something that is where the issues show up.


Do you want motorbikes banned from certain trails? I'm sure there are some people who take issue with that.

I'll tell you what isn't an issue, if an ebiker passes me on a climb on a legal trail I could care less.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> OK and????
> 
> Like the video shows they give access to trails and make riding fun so what's the problem?


 MA guy here. For me, not legal save 8 or so public spaces in the whole state. So there's that.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

richj8990 said:


> If e-bikes do indeed cause trail shutdowns all over the place, then you are more than justified to have that opinion. Hell, maybe I'll have the same opinion too, if it happens. Until then, it's speculation. It's a few incidents here and there. Maybe it will balloon into a huge problem, maybe not. The more practical angst is against dirt bikes on trails: they can and do cause a lot more problems and damage. Big signs at one of my riding areas now that say no dirt bikes. The neighbors hate the noise, pollution, and ground destruction they cause. E-bikes do not fit into the same category in any of the three problems above that dirt bikes cause. 40-60 lb bikes that make little noise and no pollution vs. offroad motorcycles. Is it that hard to see the differences?
> 
> Again, if e-bikes somehow mess up most or all trail access for normal bikes, that is a horrible outcome, but it would be an arbitrary, perception-based outcome, not a practical one.


 Where does one draw the line? Once that door is opened it's not shutting. 250, 750, 2,000 watts, 5,000 watts, how does one tell by looking? You can't. E motorcycles are a thing.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'll tell you what isn't an issue, if an ebiker passes me on a climb on a legal trail I could care less.


I have been passed twice on climbs in my riding area by eBikes and only took issue with the guy who rode into the bushes to pass me and my buddy who were riding side by side up a doubletrack road. If he had slowed down to ring a bell or in some other way notify us he needed to pass I would not care. But he did not bother to slow down to signal need to pass and instead crushes some bushes. In my personal opinion the bushes were not really hurt by his actions, however many land managers have a different opinion, and needless trail braids or trail widening is never good for access.

I had zero issue with the other guy who passed me because we were on a double track and he was able to pass without going off the trail.

Some people read my posts and think I am anti-ebike.... the truth is I would love it if I could afford one, but they are very expensive and out of reach for me at this moment in time. I also am of the belief that they will become illegal in more and more places in the future.


----------



## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

leeboh said:


> Where does one draw the line? Once that door is opened it's not shutting. 250, 750, 2,000 watts, 5,000 watts, how does one tell by looking? You can't. E motorcycles are a thing.


the trend is towards pretty good standardization.

its not the power that is a limiting factor using eMTB, it is the battery capacity and range. And that is what we see changing.

e-moto is a thing like making moonshine is a thing. Sure it's something that's out there, but its a rare thing because it doesn't really appeal for practical MTB riding purposes. It's illegal and the quality of these e-moto are DIY garbage, compared to a refined commercial class 1 eMTB.

Slippery slope argument as you try here is considered a fallacy in logic, BTW. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope


----------



## hansdie (Sep 12, 2018)

Just curious have you dealt with any motorsports as a hobby? For sure there will be aftermarket tuning and hop up to unlock the full potential. For example a specialized eMTB is limited to ~15mph but it takes less than 5 minutes to convert from class1 to class3, up to 28mph. Obviously not everyone will do this but some will.

If you look at car manufactures they too could standardize on output levels but they don't. My car has a top speed of ~110mph but the fastest I drive anywhere is 70mph. Bikes are and will be the same as long as you don't exceed the trail speeds limits you're fine with what ever you have. I have an ebike for commuting that should be classified as a moped but how does anyone know unless I'm speeding?

As someone else said eMTB access should be classified separately from regular MTB, not try to be lumped together.

Right now all the eMTBers I'm seeing are riding illegally on trails since all the trails are illegal to them.



BCsaltchucker said:


> the trend is towards pretty good standardization.
> 
> its not the power that is a limiting factor using eMTB, it is the battery capacity and range. And that is what we see changing.
> 
> e-moto is a thing like making moonshine is a thing. Sure it's something that's out there, but its a rare thing because it doesn't really appeal for practical MTB riding purposes. It's illegal and the quality of these e-moto are DIY garbage, compared to a refined commercial class 1 eMTB.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

BCsaltchucker said:


> the trend is towards pretty good standardization.
> 
> its not the power that is a limiting factor using eMTB, it is the battery capacity and range. And that is what we see changing.
> 
> ...


 The " appeal" is to all those moto and atv guys and gals that have been shut out of the system for decades. There are refined e motorcycles too. Dressed up to look like a bike, just saying. MA guy here, not many legal moto public riding areas in the whole state. 8 or so. Illegal doesn't stop the poachers on dirt bikes and atv's here either. Not even with fines and the vehicles being impounded. Victoria BC? You should be in the CAD forum. Dude. No crown land down here.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

BCsaltchucker said:


> then why are you hanging out here with 'the ebike crowd' if you hate them, and call them liars? There are at least 20 other subforums on this MTB site for you to go find something you like.


Because I don't want them on most of the single track that I ride. I would be fine with them on fire roads, directional trails only, but not climbing single track. It is selfish reason but, I don't want to have to slow down when I am descending because some one may be coming around a corner going uphill at downhill speeds.

Do you know who its really hard for to climb on a bike? Me, but it is part of it. I am sorry if you need a day off, or a different type of ride. I am sorry if you can't keep up with your friends or want to do 5 laps after work instead of 1.

For the guys that are physically incapable of riding anything but an ebike, we can figure something out, maybe a 5 mph limit. Why do you need more than that? It will help you climb and downhill takes care of itself.

The places they are legal, are fine. Fire roads etc, but I will advocate against them on all the trails I ride.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Because I don't want them on most of the single track that I ride. I would be fine with them on fire roads, directional trails only, but not climbing single track. It is selfish reason but, I don't want to have to slow down when I am descending because some one may be coming around a corner going uphill at downhill speeds.
> 
> Do you know who its really hard for to climb on a bike? Me, but it is part of it. I am sorry if you need a day off, or a different type of ride. I am sorry if you can't keep up with your friends or want to do 5 laps after work instead of 1.
> 
> ...


Well I will give you this at least you are honest about your selfish reasons for not liking e-mtb.

I feel the same way about people that ride up any trail that has a great downhill to it.

What you want is a power restriction since speed can't be controlled given gears etc... unless you want all bikes to be restricted to 5 mph. Restricting watts to 250 and only allow for pedal assist that should be a good compromise.

The 750 watt midrive I have for commuting that allows me to pedal uphill at 15+ mph I agree is total over kill for trails. Weird part though it is cheaper to buy a retro fit 750 watt system over a 250 one.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

If ebikes are being kept off of trails because they are so fast that they are dangerous to slower riders, why aren’t experts and pros banned too? Aren’t they also dangerous to others since their climbing speeds are so much faster than most others on the trail and they will be descending at a faster speed as well?


----------



## rorhound (Aug 23, 2013)

I think the video is spot on. 

Guess I’m lucky. The several local trails I ride on are mostly one direction, very rarely have hikers and never have horses. 

No one, including the builders and guys that maintain the trails (myself included), give a rats ass if you ride an eBike or a peddle bike as long as you’re having fun. 

We don’t have a ranger problem around here, if a trail gets shut down it won’t be because someone rode an eBike. 

My Devinci Ac XT will arrive this week.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

KenPsz said:


> Well I will give you this at least you are honest about your selfish reasons for not liking e-mtb.
> 
> I feel the same way about people that ride up any trail that has a great downhill to it.
> 
> ...


The trails I am talking about restrict climbing to about 4-8mph by the steepness anyway. 
Its very rare to see someone climbing much faster.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

WoodlandHills said:


> If ebikes are being kept off of trails because they are so fast that they are dangerous to slower riders, why aren't experts and pros banned too? Aren't they also dangerous to others since their climbing speeds are so much faster than most others on the trail and they will be descending at a faster speed as well?


Pros make up less than 1% of riders. I don't care about bikes passing me climbing at higher speeds, happens all the time. If an expert rider passes me when I am going 4 and he's going 8, who cares. I know for a fact that hikers/haters don't like being passed on climbs at downhill speeds.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

sfgiantsfan said:


> The trails I am talking about restrict climbing to about 4-8mph by the steepness anyway.
> Its very rare to see someone climbing much faster.


You are requiring the impossible since there is no way for the electric motor to know you are climbing vs. descending.

The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

KenPsz said:


> You are requiring the impossible since there is no way for the electric motor to know you are climbing vs. descending.
> 
> The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.


Or even easier would be no motors on public trails.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Or even easier would be no motors on public trails.


No that would be selfish and not in the spirit of the video.

I will tell you one thing I am glad I don't live where many of you do given the restriction you have or want.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

hansdie said:


> Who defines the limit? Anything capable of more than 30 mph would be a motorcycle in California.
> 
> Just need a H-52 https://www.stealthelectricbikes.com/model-range/ but maybe a little lighter and cheaper.
> 
> ...


Have you tried video games? No climbing or pedaling with a ton of easy access trails.



WoodlandHills said:


> If ebikes are being kept off of trails because they are so fast that they are dangerous to slower riders, why aren't experts and pros banned too? Aren't they also dangerous to others since their climbing speeds are so much faster than most others on the trail and they will be descending at a faster speed as well?


Expert level riders also have the experience and skills to handle riding faster than most other people.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Expert level riders also have the experience and skills to handle riding faster than most other people.


what nonsense is this???

I have been run off the trail by a group of "expert" riders that were total a-holes because they felt they had those skills.

Can I demand they stay off the trails then?

fast inconsiderate people are fast inconsiderate people.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> You are requiring the impossible since there is no way for the electric motor to know you are climbing vs. descending.
> 
> The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.


The best would be an outright ban on motorized conveyances.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

life behind bars said:


> The best would be an outright ban on motorized conveyances.


Best for who????

Since I and other seem to have no issues with it.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> Best for who????
> 
> Since I and other seem to have no issues with it.


Best for cyclists.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

And, there are plenty of cyclists that have issues with motorized vehicles on the trails.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

life behind bars said:


> Best for cyclists.


Says who you???

Just on this thread there is a disagreement on that point.

Hell hikers would LOVE to see bikers removed from trails
Horse riders would LOVE to see hikers and bikers removed from tails.
Some environmentalist would love to see everyone removed.

So what makes you different from those three groups?

I like the tech and when I can afford it will buy one for the reasons shown in the video on the original post.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

life behind bars said:


> And, there are plenty of cyclists that have issues with motorized vehicles on the trails.


I will counter with there are plenty that don't, so who gets to call the tune?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> I will counter with there are plenty that don't, so who gets to call the tune?


Are you ok with 1000 watts? 125cc dirt bikes? 500cc? Where is your limit?


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> I will counter with there are plenty that don't, so who gets to call the tune?


Land managers.


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

I watched this video before I saw the thread. It was entertaining. I still won't be buying an E-bike, and I bet I hate climbing more than most of you. I hope they are never allowed on our trails, and I hope they enjoy the many trails that are available to motorized vehicles.


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

WoodlandHills said:


> If ebikes are being kept off of trails because they are so fast that they are dangerous to slower riders, why aren't experts and pros banned too? Aren't they also dangerous to others since their climbing speeds are so much faster than most others on the trail and they will be descending at a faster speed as well?


No silly, pros got skills. Tom, Dick, and Jane, on their maiden voyage upon an electric motor bike, do not.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> what nonsense is this???
> 
> I have been run off the trail by a group of "expert" riders that were total a-holes because they felt they had those skills.
> 
> ...


They didn't run you off the trail because they had skills, they ran you off the trail because they were douchebags. They'd act the same, likely worse, on an electric motor bike.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> Best for who????
> 
> Since I and other seem to have no issues with it.


Best for the good of the whole. You and yours are a minority when you consider ALL of the user groups.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Great video on why if you're not lazy, why you DON'T need an e-bike, even at 82 years old  Full write up/interview


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Are you ok with 1000 watts? 125cc dirt bikes? 500cc? Where is your limit?


I already addressed that in a post above.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

mbmb65 said:


> Best for the good of the whole. You and yours are a minority when you consider ALL of the user groups.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why do you think you are in the majority? 
What you counting hikers and horses???? What the enemy of my enemy is my friend now for this discussion?

These threads are a hoot!


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> You are requiring the impossible since there is no way for the electric motor to know you are climbing vs. descending.
> 
> The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.


It would not be impossible to design a system that detected if your were climbing vs descending, I bet it would be pretty simple. Mercury switch? If ebikers truly just wanted a little help on the climbs and a "bicycle experience", they would push for that. I think most of them would be disappointed and the manufacturers know that.

I know of one ebiker in this thread who has admitted to riding an over wattage ebike in another thread. He said he was going to get it detuned. I wonder if that has happened.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> Why do you think you are in the majority?
> What you counting hikers and horses???? What the enemy of my enemy is my friend now for this discussion?
> 
> These threads are a hoot!


If you don't think that all of the user groups are going to mean something in access decisions you're even more so naive than you appear to be.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> I already addressed that in a post above.


Are you referring to this?



KenPsz said:


> The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.


It so you should recognize the hypocracy involved with that.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

life behind bars said:


> If you don't think that all of the user groups are going to mean something in access decisions you're even more so naive than you appear to be.


Oh the horrible naive comment how horrible. LOL

You mean the user groups that already are fighting?

Must really suck for you guys in CA and MA that can't seem to get along at all for trails.
Where I live in the Midwest we don't have these problems and e-mtb are just part of the fun (like the video).


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Are you referring to this?
> 
> It so you should recognize the hypocracy involved with that.


What hypocrisy? I have no problems with motorized bikes unlike several here, the all or nothing many seem to need I don't agree with. So you might want to go and review what hypocrisy actually means.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

mbmb65 said:


> They didn't run you off the trail because they had skills, they ran you off the trail because they were douchebags. They'd act the same, likely worse, on an electric motor bike.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So the problem isn't e-bikes is douchbags on bikes period.

But hey so much easier to blame a technology than actually deal with the douchbags since that is easier, right.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> I already addressed that in a post above.





KenPsz said:


> You are requiring the impossible since there is no way for the electric motor to know you are climbing vs. descending.
> 
> The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.





KenPsz said:


> What hypocrisy? I have no problems with motorized bikes unlike several here, the all or nothing many seem to need I don't agree with. So you might want to go and review what hypocrisy actually means.


You have no problem with them but you think they should be restricted? That's exactly how I feel about electric bikes.


----------



## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

I ride a ebike and a regular mountain bike and much prefer my regular mountain bike, but after riding a 30 mile ride on the regular mountain bike I have to rest, now with the ebike I can ride the next day. 

I really think the hate comes from ego and pride, I mean a mountain bike person who is fit and in shape and put in his time and effort is now being passed on the trail by out of shape people and that is driving a lot of them nuts IMO


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Dave Mac said:


> I ride a ebike and a regular mountain bike and much prefer my regular mountain bike, but after riding a 30 mile ride on the regular mountain bike I have to rest, now with the ebike I can ride the next day.
> 
> I really think the hate comes from ego and pride, I mean a mountain bike person who is fit and in shape and put in his time and effort is now being passed on the trail by out of shape people and that is driving a lot of them nuts IMO


You could not possibly be more off base with your asinine assumption.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> Oh the horrible naive comment how horrible. LOL
> 
> You mean the user groups that already are fighting?
> 
> ...


We've already aligned with the local equestrian groups, build trails for both user groups. Next.


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> So the problem isn't e-bikes is douchbags on bikes period.
> 
> But hey so much easier to blame a technology than actually deal with the douchbags since that is easier, right.


Uhm, no. Douchebags are just another user group. The choice of recreation is insignificant and unrelated to what we're talking about here. It's simple really:motorized vehicles should continue to be banned on non motorized trails. That part is easy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> Why do you think you are in the majority?
> What you counting hikers and horses???? What the enemy of my enemy is my friend now for this discussion?
> 
> These threads are a hoot!


Because I am. Why would I not include equestrians and hikers? Do you not? That might be part of your problem.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> Oh the horrible naive comment how horrible. LOL
> 
> You mean the user groups that already are fighting?
> 
> ...


 Nope. Got 15 miles of singletrack 100 yds from my door. Can ride all day in a couple of directions with some short pave connections, North of Boston. Motos had access, trashed the trails, and now for the most part banned. Going to be a long road back for them. The coasts are for the most part older, more people and more trail access issues. Lots of land/deed/openspace/conservation rules regarding motorized vehicles. Plus the state park/forest system ( DCR) that only has 8? os so place for the motos to ride. Works for me.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

mbmb65 said:


> Because I am. Why would I not include equestrians and hikers? Do you not? That might be part of your problem.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hikers and horse riders are not going to care if a bike has a motor on it or not, so to attempt to use them to boost the anti-e-bike idea is silly.

Luckly where I'm at hikers and bikers work together to build trails and fight the horse back riders that are a bunch of entitled jerks. The bikers here also don't have this hatred of e-mtb that seems to be happening on the costs.

That is why I find these "discussions" so interesting since like much of the mountain biking topic the costs seem to want to run the discussion, sorry but there are many more bikers out side of those areas that get a say also.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

mbmb65 said:


> Uhm, no. Douchebags are just another user group. The choice of recreation is insignificant and unrelated to what we're talking about here. It's simple really:motorized vehicles should continue to be banned on non motorized trails. That part is easy.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We can do this dance over and over since no motorized bikes should not be banned. Only douch bags (of all types) should be banned.

Since like the video shows you can be a e-biker and not a douch bag.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> You have no problem with them but you think they should be restricted? That's exactly how I feel about electric bikes.


Problem is you want a full restriction (aka a ban) from bike trails which is very different from my opinion.

I am all for expanding the hobby and if a little technical help gets people out there and they are not douch bags about it I say welcome aboard.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> Problem is you want a full restriction (aka a ban) from bike trails which is very different from my opinion.


You are mistaken, never have I said or written that.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I have no problem with sharing trails with e-bikes, but they are NOT mountain bikes. 
Cuz motor.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> You are mistaken, never have I said or written that.


A post above (#12) that you made contains "Like a lot of people I've nothing against electric bikes but I do have a problem with them gaining access wherever bicycles are allowed under the guise of being"non-motorized"."

Does that not imply you don't want them on bike trails? Or is there a more nuanced statement you are trying to make with that statement?

Why can you just not let folks like Brig (who's not a douch bag) have fun on the trails, yet he hates climbing and wants a little assistance?

J.B. Weld maybe it is the tone of your writing that leads me to believe you want e-mtb's banned from trails. But re-reading some of your posts you do seem to be OK if they are denoted as what they are and the trail is open to them. So then becomes the question are you for closing trails to motorized e-mtb? (just for clarification).


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> I have no problem with sharing trails with e-bikes, but they are NOT mountain bikes.
> Cuz motor.


Oh now here is an interesting statement that is worth more discussion.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> A post above (#12) that you made contains "Like a lot of people I've nothing against electric bikes but I do have a problem with them gaining access wherever bicycles are allowed under the guise of being"non-motorized"."
> 
> Does that not imply you don't want them on bike trails? Or is there a more nuanced statement you are trying to make with that statement?


If you read that post again you'll see that I never mentioned or implied anything about banning electric bikes. I thought I was pretty clear and there are no intended nuances. To put it another way I strongly believe that a "No Motor Vehicles" sign should mean no electric bikes but that doesn't mean the sign couldn't be changed through the proper legal process.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> Hikers and horse riders are not going to care if a bike has a motor on it or not, so to attempt to use them to boost the anti-e-bike idea is silly.
> 
> Luckly where I'm at hikers and bikers work together to build trails and fight the horse back riders that are a bunch of entitled jerks. The bikers here also don't have this hatred of e-mtb that seems to be happening on the costs.
> 
> That is why I find these "discussions" so interesting since like much of the mountain biking topic the costs seem to want to run the discussion, sorry but there are many more bikers out side of those areas that get a say also.


Where I live, none of the various user groups; mtbers, trail runners, hikers and equestrians want ebikes on non motorized trails. We all get along, and support each other in building new trails. How the communities interact is different everywhere.

Land managers here are not interested in adding them to the mix for various reasons, one of which that hasn't yet been mentioned here is that of easements and funding issues which preclude allowing motorized vehicles.



KenPsz said:


> The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.





KenPsz said:


> What you want is a power restriction since speed can't be controlled given gears etc... unless you want all bikes to be restricted to 5 mph. Restricting watts to 250 and only allow for pedal assist that should be a good compromise.
> 
> The 750 watt midrive I have for commuting that allows me to pedal uphill at 15+ mph I agree is total over kill for trails. Weird part though it is cheaper to buy a retro fit 750 watt system over a 250 one.


The various ebike laws in the US define an ebike as 750w and below, so there won't be any subclass for 250w ebikes. If you're adovcating for ebikes to be allowed on trails, you're actually advocating for 750w ebikes to be allowed on trails.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Hikers and horse riders are not going to care if a bike has a motor on it or not.


This sentence leads me to believe you have never once in your life attended a trail access meeting with a board of directors where they had to hear arguments from both hiker user groups and mountain biker user groups.

Maybe in your small little corner of the world there are no trail issues and everyone gets along in a multi-use trail utopia, but not in the rest of the United States. Just look at any time groups try to get access to pedal on the PCT, the hiker groups come out in mass against it. Add a motor to the bike and things WILL get more heated from the hiker groups.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> If you read that post again you'll see that I never mentioned or implied anything about banning electric bikes. I thought I was pretty clear and there are no intended nuances. To put it another way I strongly believe that a "No Motor Vehicles" sign should mean no electric bikes but that doesn't mean the sign couldn't be changed through the proper legal process.


Ah OK thank you for the clarification.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Harryman said:


> The various ebike laws in the US define an ebike as 750w and below, so there won't be any subclass for 250w ebikes. If you're adovcating for ebikes to be allowed on trails, you're actually advocating for 750w ebikes to be allowed on trails.


I have a 750 on a commuter bike and that would be way overkill for trails. But boy is it fun to pass the guy on the $5000 road bike. Passing at 15 mph going up hill then hearing them try to keep up is funny.

Would want the same on the trails not so much since the trails are tighter and that would just not work. I have been looking to retro fit a fatbike and there is nothing under 1000watts for a retro.

Oh well, guess I keep pedaling and hating climbing.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Oh well, guess I keep pedaling and hating climbing.


Learn to love the burn. ;-)

I MTB with my 38lb son sitting on a MacRide seat on my bike.... you think Climbing is hard, try adding 40lbs of wiggling weight between you and your handlebars......


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> This sentence leads me to believe you have never once in your life attended a trail access meeting with a board of directors where they had to hear arguments from both hiker user groups and mountain biker user groups.


You would be wrong



Klurejr said:


> Maybe in your small little corner of the world there are no trail issues and everyone gets along in a multi-use trail utopia, but not in the rest of the United States. Just look at any time groups try to get access to pedal on the PCT, the hiker groups come out in mass against it. Add a motor to the bike and things WILL get more heated from the hiker groups.


Oh we have plenty of trail issues. Mostly it is horse riders trying to take trails and banning all other uses. Most of the trails around where live are build by mountain bikers with the county and state rangers determining who gets to use what. Once the horses are allowed it seems to only take a few years before a trail is exclusively theirs. So the going trend seems to be more and more rocky trails to keep horses off.

To keep hikers happy I have a bell on my bike and encourage others to as well. Since having a mountain bike sneak up on you at speed sucks.

So we are back to don't be a douch bag and people should be able to get along electric motor or not.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> Learn to love the burn. ;-)
> 
> I MTB with my 38lb son sitting on a MacRide seat on my bike.... you think Climbing is hard, try adding 40lbs of wiggling weight between you and your handlebars......
> 
> View attachment 1227633


After 23+ years of riding I am not going to learn to love the burn, I tolerate it get to downhills. But the climbs do influence how much I do ride, since like Brig I would be able to ride more with some assistance going uphill.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> This sentence leads me to believe you have never once in your life attended a trail access meeting with a board of directors where they had to hear arguments from both hiker user groups and mountain biker user groups.


Agree completely.

Nothing wrong with e-bikes on their own. You try to start pushing the 'well, mountain bikes have motors now' angle though, you're opening up a can of worms, and mountain bikers are the ones that'll lose access because of it.

Enjoy riding your e-bikes and good luck with the advocacy end of things, but please leave mountain bikers out of the equation. A lot of access depends on the fact that it's a strictly human-powered, 'passive' form of recreation. If you don't think this is true, refer again to Klurejr's assessment.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> Agree completely.
> 
> Nothing wrong with e-bikes on their own. You try to start pushing the 'well, mountain bikes have motors now' angle though, you're opening up a can of worms, and mountain bikers are the ones that'll lose access because of it.
> 
> Enjoy riding your e-bikes and good luck with the advocacy end of things, but please leave mountain bikers out of the equation. A lot of access depends on the fact that it's a strictly human-powered, 'passive' form of recreation. If you don't think this is true, refer again to Klurejr's assessment.


Klurejr's assessment would be wrong, but feel free to run with it.

Like it or not mountain bikers are not going to be "left out of it" because non-biking trail users don't see the distinction they see a bike. Many a hiker have a hatred of mountain bikers so bikers throwing their own under the bus isn't going to get you bikers any more love from hikers.


----------



## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

Klurejr said:


> Learn to love the burn. ;-)
> 
> I MTB with my 38lb son sitting on a MacRide seat on my bike.... you think Climbing is hard, try adding 40lbs of wiggling weight between you and your handlebars......
> 
> View attachment 1227633


Bicycles with a child seat should be banned from all trails.
Teehee


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> I have a 750 on a commuter bike and that would be way overkill for trails. But boy is it fun to pass the guy on the $5000 road bike. Passing at 15 mph going up hill then hearing them try to keep up is funny.
> 
> Would want the same on the trails not so much since the trails are tighter and that would just not work. I have been looking to retro fit a fatbike and there is nothing under 1000watts for a retro.
> 
> Oh well, guess I keep pedaling and hating climbing.


So how are you planning on keeping those 1000 watt retros off the trails once ebikes are allowed? 1200 watts&#8230;?

And yes, our fear is that other user groups will just see a "bike" so when they don't like "bikes" passing them at 15+ mph going uphill, they will push for all bikes to be banned. That's why we don't like ebikers trying to ride in on our coattails.


----------



## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> You could not possibly be more off base with your asinine assumption.


terrible way to represent the ebike community, name calling is not the way to promote the wonderful sport of ebikes grow up and check the ego


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> You would be wrong


Okay, so at the last meeting you went to, when the hikers spoke about trail access what were their opinions on bikes in general? Did anyone speak about motorized bikes and access? Did the hikers have anything to say about motorized bikes being granted the same access to trails as pedal only bikes and hikers?

I am genuinely interested in your experience in this matter. It might be helpful to know exactly what meeting this was. Who was the land manager in this case, City, County, State, Federal? Who were you presenting to? City Council? Ranger Board, etc.... The more details the better.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Dave Mac said:


> terrible way to represent the ebike community, name calling is not the way to promote the wonderful sport of ebikes grow up and check the ego


Life Behind Bars in no way represents the eBike community. haha. Have you read his posts?


----------



## ruthabagah (Jun 4, 2018)

chazpat said:


> So how are you planning on keeping those 1000 watt retros off the trails once ebikes are allowed? 1200 watts&#8230;?
> 
> And yes, our fear is that other user groups will just see a "bike" so when they don't like "bikes" passing them at 15+ mph going uphill, they will push for all bikes to be banned. That's why we don't like ebikers trying to ride in on our coattails.


I was recently in a county meeting where Ebikes were permanently allowed on any surface trails. The Land manager in charge replied to one of the 2 detractor present during the public comment session (7 negative comment total for 59 supporting) with great common sense that I hope will prevail here in Colorado and other places:

"E bikes are bicycles, we won't ban ebikes, we will ban riders breaking the law. We have speed limit in place, and we have been enforcing them for a decade."

Simple.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

chazpat said:


> So how are you planning on keeping those 1000 watt retros off the trails once ebikes are allowed? 1200 watts&#8230;?
> 
> And yes, our fear is that other user groups will just see a "bike" so when they don't like "bikes" passing them at 15+ mph going uphill, they will push for all bikes to be banned. That's why we don't like ebikers trying to ride in on our coattails.


I am not about banning technology I don't think that way.
The fights between bikers and hikers have been going on for decades since many a biker is a douch bag to hikers as it is today. E-bikes don't make that situation any worse.

I want to see more people in the hobby since numbers are what win the fights not say "not me!"


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> Okay, so at the last meeting you went to, when the hikers spoke about trail access what were their opinions on bikes in general? Did anyone speak about motorized bikes and access? Did the hikers have anything to say about motorized bikes being granted the same access to trails as pedal only bikes and hikers?


No since around here the issue of cutting up bike usage to "that was not me or my bike" is not a discussion. The overall discussion is about trail access and shared usage, right of way etc...

But as someone already mentioned there are very different trail issues through the country. Midwest is very different than CA, MA, NY etc....


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

ruthabagah said:


> I was recently in a county meeting where Ebikes were permanently allowed on any surface trails. The Land manager in charge replied to one of the 2 detractor present during the public comment session (7 negative comment total for 59 supporting) with great common sense that I hope will prevail here in Colorado and other places:
> 
> "E bikes are bicycles, we won't ban ebikes, we will ban riders breaking the law. We have speed limit in place, and we have been enforcing them for a decade."
> 
> Simple.


As it should be since a douch bag on a bike is a douch bag on a bike.

General comment:
Can we get back to the topic of the video and not e-bikes on trails???
Since the video makes good points about the benefits of e-bikes and for what type of rider.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

They're toys for selfish enjoyment, just like mountain bikes and motos. They're good for whoever has the cash to buy one and has fun on it. It's not like they're making the world a better place.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Harryman said:


> They're toys for selfish enjoyment, just like mountain bikes and motos. They're good for whoever has the cash to buy one and has fun on it. It's not like they're making the world a better place.


Actually, when I put the commute wheels on my eMTB and ride it to work, it *is* making the world a better place. The old F150 has a much bigger carbon footprint, and a much bigger presence on the road. Since most eMTBs are 27.5+ or 29er already, slapping on a set of 700c wheels turns them into awesome commuters.

My son just bought a road-oriented eBike to ride to work. The traffic is so bad in Boulder that his 11 mile commute sometimes takes 40 minutes. He bought a Class 3 (28 MPH) and he figures 30 minutes or so for the ride, riding right past the backups at the stoplights that he often sits at for multiple cycles of the lights, less gas, and more fun. Luckily there are good shoulders the entire way to/from work for him.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Agreed, if you're using it to replace a car, or haul your load of bannas to market, bikes or ebikes can make the world a slightly better place, but in the context of riding it on mtb trails for fun, it's just indulgent enjoyment. Since the OP's video is about the latter, that is what I was commenting on.


----------



## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

Dave Mac said:


> terrible way to represent the ebike community, name calling is not the way to promote the wonderful sport of ebikes grow up and check the ego


Perhaps it's semantical, but the incident of which you speak is "word" calling, asinine is being used as an adjective. It's describing the word assumption, not name calling.

That said, I've been lurking a bit. My cousin's fiance was a previous downhill "racer" in a former life and also is completely disinterested in climbing, aka earning the downhills. He loves his ebike and rides it where he can in WI. I talked with him extensively about it at a family gathering and while I don't "get it" I understand that he gets more downhill time since he saves energy going uphill with the motor. A corollary he provided was that I was snowboarder and that perhaps I should walk up the mtn instead of using the lift. I think we'll always have a bit different viewpoint on the subject since I get some satisfaction going up while he believes wholeheartedly it's a waste of time between downhills. Such is the issue with these threads, so let's get along despite disagreeing. That said, my position is that anything with a motor whether it be electric or gas or diesel should not be taken on any trail or road system unless explicitly allowed to do so as shown posted signage or read in that system's regulations and rules sheet.

People who argue they are part of a group while being simeltaneously rejected by said group is just sad.

Oh, forgot to comment on the video. I think the guy wimped out on the uphill. The orator in the video describes his friend as a guy's guy, working a tough job, doing physical labor, someone who is fit.... but quits first mentally then physically. Ok fine, his choice until he starts blocking the trail and complaining which could affect others and their enjoyment. I personally think the power of the ebike is not for younger riders who don't want to put the effort into getting to the top, but for those who used to and are having trouble now due to physical limitations. Yep, I see this guy using motor a bit like a training wheel. That said, he has the right to use one anywhere they are allowed but not where they are not.


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

KenPsz said:


> I have a 750 on a commuter bike and that would be way overkill for trails. But boy is it fun to pass the guy on the $5000 road bike. Passing at 15 mph going up hill then hearing them try to keep up is funny.
> 
> Would want the same on the trails not so much since the trails are tighter and that would just not work. I have been looking to retro fit a fatbike and there is nothing under 1000watts for a retro.
> 
> Oh well, guess I keep pedaling and hating climbing.


Well...you don't have to get a mid-drive to ride offroad. You could do a rear wheel conversion and then put something like a 2.8 or 3.0 tire on the back, keep the front 4.0. The problem is finding a threaded rear axle on the rear hub motor that's long enough for a fat bike.

Or...
ECOTRIC Fat Tire Electric Bike Beach Snow Bicycle 26" 4.0 inch Fat Tire ebike 500W 36V/12AH Electric Mountain Bicycle with Shimano 7 Speeds Lithium Battery Black/Orange/Blue $902

And then if you don't like that bike, cannibalize the hub and motor and put it on your bike.


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Dave Mac said:


> I ride a ebike and a regular mountain bike and much prefer my regular mountain bike, but after riding a 30 mile ride on the regular mountain bike I have to rest, now with the ebike I can ride the next day.
> 
> I really think the hate comes from ego and pride, I mean a mountain bike person who is fit and in shape and put in his time and effort is now being passed on the trail by out of shape people and that is driving a lot of them nuts IMO


It's funny how there is so much hate for e-bikes, but when you ask them exactly why, and any solid evidence for why they should be banned, there is a big pause, or a disorganized rant. I'm still waiting on someone to show the evidence for why they should be banned in a civilized and organized manner. Then and only then can there be a gentleman's debate. Until then, tribal mudslinging.


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Are you ok with 1000 watts? 125cc dirt bikes? 500cc? Where is your limit?


500W is probably a good limit on dirt. As mentioned many, many times, a 125cc dirt bike is going to make a lot more noise, pollution, and tear up a trail far worse than the heaviest e-bike. I've seen it happen with dirt bikes, you must have seen it too. All the crushed, pointy rocks strewn all over the trail, ready and waiting to slice up your front tire.

The watt limit should be set by both trail impact and any hiker/pet walker/normal cyclist complaints. Other than those two issues, what exactly is the problem?


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

richj8990 said:


> Well...you don't have to get a mid-drive to ride offroad. You could do a rear wheel conversion and then put something like a 2.8 or 3.0 tire on the back, keep the front 4.0. The problem is finding a threaded rear axle on the rear hub motor that's long enough for a fat bike.
> 
> Or...
> ECOTRIC Fat Tire Electric Bike Beach Snow Bicycle 26" 4.0 inch Fat Tire ebike 500W 36V/12AH Electric Mountain Bicycle with Shimano 7 Speeds Lithium Battery Black/Orange/Blue $902
> ...


I don't care much for the rear wheel systems since I can't directly control the amp draws via gears and down shifting.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> 500W is probably a good limit on dirt. As mentioned many, many times, a 125cc dirt bike is going to make a lot more noise, pollution, and tear up a trail far worse than the heaviest e-bike. I've seen it happen with dirt bikes, you must have seen it too. All the crushed, pointy rocks strewn all over the trail, ready and waiting to slice up your front tire.
> 
> The watt limit should be set by both trail impact and any hiker/pet walker/normal cyclist complaints. Other than those two issues, what exactly is the problem?


How do you propose making sure your suggested limits are adhered to?


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> How do you propose making sure your suggested limits are adhered to?


How are any trail restrictions enforced now, It's call rangers checking.

Rangers can carry a portable watt meter like the do in the Netherlands.

Then Rangers issue tickets and/or arrest people as needed.

I don't get this notion that you need someone's permission for everything and rules to enjoy a hobby.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> How are any trail restrictions enforced now, It's call rangers checking.
> 
> Rangers can carry a portable watt meter like the do in the Netherlands.
> 
> ...


I wasn't the one suggesting power limits, and I see no way to enforce them anyway.

I've also seen a grand total of 1 ranger on a trail in my ~30 years of MTBing.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

richj8990 said:


> It's funny how there is so much hate for e-bikes, but when you ask them exactly why, and any solid evidence for why they should be banned, there is a big pause, or a disorganized rant. I'm still waiting on someone to show the evidence for why they should be banned in a civilized and organized manner. Then and only then can there be a gentleman's debate. Until then, tribal mudslinging.


 OK, I'll start. Motorized vehicles not allowed on the mutli use off road trails where I ride. (Most of MA, save for a few spots) That's the current rules on the books. Plenty of conservation areas, open space, town lands and reservations also ban motorized vehicles. That's most of the the areas open to hiking and riding, that and the state forest/park system. Same deal. So it's not a why/why not, just currently not legal. Someone wants to change that, have at it. Lots of steps, meeting and advocacy. Good luck with the Sierra Club, AMC and other groups. I ride on lots of conservation areas, the deed restrictions can be very specific and spelled out for no motorized access.


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

KenPsz said:


> I was thinking about this very thing actually. It does seem that the loudest against e-mtb I have seen online are from California. There is a LOT of trails and riding outside of California.
> 
> What is "real mountain biking" ???? I have never been on a mountain does that mean I don't do mountain biking?


I got an e-bike specifically to climb mountains instead of hills. But I don't consider what I'm doing mountain biking even if I am riding on top of mountains. What I'm doing, functionally, is probably the equivalent of gravel biking on an e-bike (because a lot of these fire roads up the mountain are graveled). Hills are fine to climb with a normal bike. Mountains...man they can be steep to climb, and it seems like the top is always the same distance away. An e-bike can really help that issue climbing mountains.

Sunday I did a cool fire road loop about 1/3 of the way up a 2000 ft mountain, came down on a really steep trail and then to the main connecting trail to the trailhead. Towards the bottom I heard more than one biker coming up behind the bushes. I'm like great, they will see my e-bike, give me a bunch of crap about riding it on 'their' trails. Nope, two old guys, both very nice, asked how my ride was. There are some open-minded old farts out there!!!

The current definition of 'real' mountain biking is going downhill with a 29" full-suspension with 2.6 inch tires. The more expensive the better. That as usual will change next year with whatever new marketing trend the brand-name manufacturers collude on.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> I got an e-bike specifically to climb mountains instead of hills. But I don't consider what I'm doing mountain biking even if I am riding on top of mountains. What I'm doing, functionally, is probably the equivalent of gravel biking on an e-bike (because a lot of these fire roads up the mountain are graveled). Hills are fine to climb with a normal bike. Mountains...man they can be steep to climb, and it seems like the top is always the same distance away. An e-bike can really help that issue climbing mountains.
> 
> Sunday I did a cool fire road loop about 1/3 of the way up a 2000 ft mountain, came down on a really steep trail and then to the main connecting trail to the trailhead. Towards the bottom I heard more than one biker coming up behind the bushes. I'm like great, they will see my e-bike, give me a bunch of crap about riding it on 'their' trails. Nope, two old guys, both very nice, asked how my ride was. There are some open-minded old farts out there!!!
> 
> The current definition of 'real' mountain biking is going downhill with a 29" full-suspension with 2.6 inch tires. The more expensive the better. That as usual will change next year with whatever new marketing trend the brand-name manufacturers collude on.


So have you gotten your 1000W emoped (over 750 watts does not classify as an ebike) reprogrammed to be a legal ebike yet? Someone may have to quote me on this as he implied he was putting me on his ignore list due to my tongue in cheek reply where he was called out for riding illegally:

https://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/aut...ized-li-ion-battery-1091479.html#post13883530

Better watch out, Ken is going to finance the rangers and equipment to catch you!


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> "Brig loves everything about mountain biking" , quickly followed by "Brig hates climbing".


I agree that mountain biking should be the whole enchilada including climbing, but JB what do you think of downhill riders that use ski lifts to get to the top? Do they love everything about mountain biking?


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

KenPsz said:


> Klurejr's assessment would be wrong, but feel free to run with it.
> 
> Like it or not mountain bikers are not going to be "left out of it" because non-biking trail users don't see the distinction they see a bike. Many a hiker have a hatred of mountain bikers so bikers throwing their own under the bus isn't going to get you bikers any more love from hikers.


You just said above that you have lost trails to equestrians, now you think that since you have a motor on your bike that you will get more trails?


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

sfgiantsfan said:


> You just said above that you have lost trails to equestrians, now you think that since you have a motor on your bike that you will get more trails?


It would not make a difference.

The horse back riders take over a trail by putting numbers on the trail and then complaining their animals are being bothered. With enough complains the trail is closed to bikes and hikers.

We have a county park that is paid for by everyone in that county that is horses only. Nice park too that used to be open to hikers.

We do have one area of trails that are hiker only.

All trails where bikes are allowed are multi-use.


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> Hikers and horse riders are not going to care if a bike has a motor on it or not, so to attempt to use them to boost the anti-e-bike idea is silly.
> 
> Luckly where I'm at hikers and bikers work together to build trails and fight the horse back riders that are a bunch of entitled jerks. The bikers here also don't have this hatred of e-mtb that seems to be happening on the costs.
> 
> That is why I find these "discussions" so interesting since like much of the mountain biking topic the costs seem to want to run the discussion, sorry but there are many more bikers out side of those areas that get a say also.


Are you sure they won't care? That's not what I'm hearing on the ground. So you're a horse "hater"? Got it. And what are all these "costs" you're going on about? I live in a mountain bike destination, you do not. Our situations are vastly different.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> We can do this dance over and over since no motorized bikes should not be banned. Only douch bags (of all types) should be banned.
> 
> Since like the video shows you can be a e-biker and not a douch bag.


I don't understand what any of this is trying to say. Slow down, and try again.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> How are any trail restrictions enforced now, It's call rangers checking.
> 
> Rangers can carry a portable watt meter like the do in the Netherlands.
> 
> ...


Right. Because the rangers have nothing else to do, and would welcome the opportunity to measure watts produced by an electric motor bike. Plus, there are so many of them on the trails waiting for **** to do because the USFS and the BLM are so well funded. Perfect solution.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

mbmb65 said:


> Are you sure they won't care? That's not what I'm hearing on the ground. So you're a horse "hater"? Got it. And what are all these "costs" you're going on about? I live in a mountain bike destination, you do not. Our situations are vastly different.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh yes I hate those stupid animals, I am not afraid to say that at all.

Sorry "costs" should've been "coasts" my bad.

I'm glad you live in a mountain bike destination (so fancy), fair enough but your views should not be shaping what happens in my area and vice versa.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

mbmb65 said:


> I don't understand what any of this is trying to say. Slow down, and try again.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Simple statement not sure what is hard to understand.

1) We can do this dance over and over again - references our exchanges
2) No motorized bikes should not be banned
3) Only douch bags (of all types) should be banned.
4) Since like the video shows you can be a e-bikder and not a douch bag.

Was the lack of proper grammar the issue, if so I hope the above clears up the confusion.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

mbmb65 said:


> Right. Because the rangers have nothing else to do, and would welcome the opportunity to measure watts produced by an electric motor bike. Plus, there are so many of them on the trails waiting for **** to do because the USFS and the BLM are so well funded. Perfect solution.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You mean doing the job they are paid to do would be a burden???

I don't get people like you that seem to crave rules and control.

Don't be a douch bag and a e-bike is no different than any other mountain bike on the trail.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

richj8990 said:


> I agree that mountain biking should be the whole enchilada including climbing, but JB what do you think of downhill riders that use ski lifts to get to the top? Do they love everything about mountain biking?


 Lift ticket and private resorts most of the time? Any hikers, dog walkers or horses on those one way trails? Don't think so. My point is that on downhill trails, the bikers are the only ones there, and they bought a ticket. The analogy doesn't work. XC skiers hate on the downhill skiers? Not.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> Simple statement not sure what is hard to understand.
> 
> 1) We can do this dance over and over again - references our exchanges
> 2) No motorized bikes should not be banned
> ...


 Ken, how much have you pedaled outside of your slice of hometown? So many different rules and regs all over the country. A giant mashup of state, local and fed rules. Ride a mile in someone elses' shoes before making such broad statements. Cheers.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> You mean doing the job they are paid to do would be a burden???
> 
> I don't get people like you that seem to crave rules and control.
> 
> Don't be a douch bag and a e-bike is no different than any other mountain bike on the trail.


 Uhh, going to start with, Bikes don't have motors. Sure you can quote some DOT reg saying otherwise. Or some areas of CA. They have a motor. Ya know, motorized. Not going to debate semantics or such with you. DOT rules pertain to hiway regs, not offroad multi use trails. Read up on some regs, state, local, BLM, USFS. And such.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> Klurejr's assessment would be wrong, but feel free to run with it.
> 
> Like it or not mountain bikers are not going to be "left out of it" because non-biking trail users don't see the distinction they see a bike. Many a hiker have a hatred of mountain bikers so bikers throwing their own under the bus isn't going to get you bikers any more love from hikers.


You post absolutes and there is nothing absolute about trail advocacy. Well, except for mountain bikers not doing advocacy work for e-motorbikes.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to life behind bars again.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Simple statement not sure what is hard to understand.
> 
> 2) No motorized bikes should not be banned
> 
> Was the lack of proper grammar the issue, if so I hope the above clears up the confusion.


FYI, double negative, cancels out. So you are saying "motorized bikes should be banned".


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

This thread really contrasts the level of empathy of the video's maker, and critics here.

One empathizes for fellow man. Others "empathize" for personal ideals, claiming it's the best interest of the majority.


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

Look I am going to play devils advocate and see if we can compromise.

I get the concern that "ebikes" may cause issues, but what would you say if it was geared strictly to low end torque and not exceed 10 mph?
Maybe a "permit" tag to utilize it on specific trails?

I understand that it would be difficult to overcome, but I think a bit of accountability of individual ebikers would "help prevent" all trail users from being lumped together. 

But that is my opinion.


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> Oh yes I hate those stupid animals, I am not afraid to say that at all.
> 
> Sorry "costs" should've been "coasts" my bad.
> 
> I'm glad you live in a mountain bike destination (so fancy), fair enough but your views should not be shaping what happens in my area and vice versa.


I don't live on the coast. I live in the mountains. They're not particularly fancy, but they are really cool.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> Simple statement not sure what is hard to understand.
> 
> 1) We can do this dance over and over again - references our exchanges
> 2) No motorized bikes should not be banned
> ...


Yes, largely it's the poor grammar. Your new version just puts numbers in front of the poorly worded mumbo jumbo, but I think I can cipher it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> You mean doing the job they are paid to do would be a burden???
> 
> I don't get people like you that seem to crave rules and control.
> 
> Don't be a douch bag and a e-bike is no different than any other mountain bike on the trail.


They're overworked and understaffed. I don't think measuring the output of an electric motor is something they need to add to the mix. So, because I don't think motorized vehicles should be allowed where motorized vehicles aren't allowed, I somehow "crave rules and control"? What's that all about? So following your line of debate, should gas powered motor bikes be allowed? What about cars? Axe wielding murderers ok? Raping and pillaging is cool too? Do tell.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> The watt limit should be set by both trail impact and any hiker/pet walker/normal cyclist complaints. Other than those two issues, what exactly is the problem?


No problem, I just think that in many cases the watt limit should be zero.



richj8990 said:


> I agree that mountain biking should be the whole enchilada including climbing, but JB what do you think of downhill riders that use ski lifts to get to the top? Do they love everything about mountain biking?


You'd have to ask them, if they don't like climbing then they don't like everything about mountain biking. I don't like everything about mountain biking either, not a big fan of bike maintenance.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> I agree that mountain biking should be the whole enchilada including climbing, but JB what do you think of downhill riders that use ski lifts to get to the top? Do they love everything about mountain biking?


The 'whole enchilada' including only the stuff YOU like to do?

I personally spend almost zero time in the air (due to lack of skill). 
Jumping is definitely part of mountain biking, as is trials-type riding, as is DH lift serviced riding, as is multi-day bikepacking, as is riding in snow, as is slopestyle/stunt type riding...etc, etc, etc...

So for the people that don't take part in each and every one of those, they obviously don't love everything about mountain biking either, right?


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

ninjichor said:


> This thread really contrasts the level of empathy of the video's maker, and critics here.
> 
> One empathizes for fellow man. Others "empathize" for personal ideals, claiming it's the best interest of the majority.


Empathy for Greg? He's not handicapped or limited in any way. Just too lazy, weak and/or tired to climb is all, which is fine. I garners no empathy from me, though.


----------



## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

leeboh said:


> Lift ticket and private resorts most of the time? Any hikers, dog walkers or horses on those one way trails? Don't think so. My point is that on downhill trails, the bikers are the only ones there, and they bought a ticket. The analogy doesn't work. XC skiers hate on the downhill skiers? Not.


I'm gonna use this the next time I meet with my cousin's fiance, that was the answer I needed when he provided the snowboarder analogy. Thanks Leeboh!


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I see the word "hate" being improperly used to describe other users who are concerned about trail access.

Perhaps if users stop mistakenly describe others as haters the tone would lighten up a bit?

Remember, no one can hear your inflection through written words on a forum.

Also blindly stating that eBikes will not threaten access as a blanket statement will never win any arguments because it is a lie. No one here can say for a certainty that they will or will not get banned or cause issues for the pedal bike access.

Please try to be more reasonable with your posts and ideas of the future. Many users here are very active in land management in the places they live and have great experience.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> I see the word "hate" being improperly used to describe other users who are concerned about trail access.
> 
> Perhaps if users stop mistakenly describe others as haters the tone would lighten up a bit?
> 
> ...


Even though you make valid points just look at the beginning of this thread.

I posted a link to a video with what I view as good points to why a e-bike is a good option.

Within 4 posts negative posts were done by those that dislike/hate e-bikes. By post 9 the original topic of the thread went down the tubes and the thread became the standard back and forth about e-bikes, trails, lazy riders, blanket statements that e-bikes will get trails closed and on and on.

There might be users here very active in land management but if their idea of a discussion is "keep your e-bike off my trails!", that is not an attitude that makes for a productive discussion.

So the negativity swings both ways.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> But boy is it fun to pass the guy on the $5000 road bike. Passing at 15 mph going up hill then hearing them try to keep up is funny.


The fact that you find that funny is telling.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Here's what I don't get, ebike advocates think it's wrong if they're restricted from bike trails. Ebike advocates say that it's the rider, not the bike that's responsible for user conflicts. Ebike advocates say that the trail, not the amount of available power dictates speed.

Them why do ebike enthusiasts advocate for power limits? And how would they argue against another group or individual who thinks the limit should be higher?


And why only pedal assist?


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> The fact that you find that funny is telling.


Telling how? Are you jealous??

How is that any different than someone that will pay 5K for a bike to loose a few pounds to climb faster?

I just happened to spend less on superior technology than the road rider that spend 5K on a road bike.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Here's what I don't get, ebike advocates think it's wrong if they're restricted from bike trails. Ebike advocates say that it's the rider, not the bike that's responsible for user conflicts. Ebike advocates say that the trail, not the amount of available power dictates speed.
> 
> Them why do ebike enthusiasts advocate for power limits? And how would they argue against another group or individual who thinks the limit should be higher?
> 
> And why only pedal assist?


To try and find a common ground with people like you that is why.

But you and others have a very "get off my lawn" attitude that is going to ridden over by technology if you like it or not.


----------



## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

That video does not give a "good" reason for that guy to get an e-bike, simple as that, dude is lazy/doesn't prioritize riding his MTB to gain fitness like his friend and that's fine, just don't claim that's a good reason for wanting a motor. If his friend can't wait on him, then he should learn (rode more) to HTFU or find other slow riders_ (climbers)_ to ride with or go to a bike park and use the lifts.



KenPsz said:


> Even though you make valid points just look at the beginning of this thread.
> 
> I posted a link to a video with what I view as good points to why a e-bike is a good option.
> 
> ...


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

LyNx said:


> That video does not give a "good" reason for that guy to get an e-bike, simple as that, dude is lazy/doesn't prioritize riding his MTB to gain fitness like his friend and that's fine, just don't claim that's a good reason for wanting a motor. If his friend can't wait on him, then he should learn (rode more) to HTFU or find other slow riders_ (climbers)_ to ride with or go to a bike park and use the lifts.


Good to see the bike elitist attitude is not dead.

God forbid that two friends that want to ride together more find a way to do so that does not meet the approval of the bike elitists.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> Telling how? Are you jealous??


Sounds like the other way around to me.

People who buy 5k bikes train hard so they can climb faster, the bike can make a small difference but mostly it's just a tool.

I pass slower people with less power than me all the time and never find it funny, if anything I'll give a friendly hello or word of encouragement.

It just seems a little weird, if not slightly pathetic to get a chuckle out of passing a cyclist while riding a motorbike.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> To try and find a common ground with people like you that is why.
> 
> But you and others have a very "get off my lawn" attitude that is going to ridden over by technology if you like it or not.


 So find common ground or " e bikes will just happen?" Umm, sure, good luck with that. Really. As said, it's how the current laws on the books stand today. Clicking your heels three times and " just because technology" will do what? Help the e bikes? Guessing not. Mt bikers have done 3 decades of advocacy, trail work and building bridges, e bikes need to do their own work. It's just like a mt bike( plus a motor) won't fly. As seen here from across the US.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Good to see the bike elitist attitude is not dead.


There is definitely a lot of elitism on display here. It's pretty typical across of MTBR in a lot of places actually - you get a lot of dedicated XC dorks that look down on sort of riding beyond EXACTLY what they do, and think that somehow their narrow little idea of what riding a bike should be is the only way to do it, and anyone that doesn't do it their way is somehow inferior (LyNx being an obvious example).

I don't go thinking my idea of a fun leisure time activity makes me better than anyone else. I don't think it's any of my business to tell anyone else how they 'should' be spending their free time or disposable income. I could care less if I get passed by someone smoking a butt and sipping rum and coke out of their bottle while the crack a throttle. Has no bearing on my enjoyment. As long as the trails aren't being trashed by a user group that doesn't pull their weight as far as working on them and I'm not held responsible for the transgressions of a user group that I'm not part of, who cares?

Of course, that's where e-bikes get into some murky water. Seems most e-bikers want ride the coat-tails of mountain bikers when it comes to advocacy and proving themselves as responsible trail users. Sorry, but as every reasonable e-bike proponent will admit, they are a new and unique user group, and as such, need to pave their own way. It's not fair to mountain bikers to try to saddle us with being responsible for e-bikes. Mountain bikes don't have motors; it's really as simple as that.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Sounds like the other way around to me.
> 
> People who buy 5k bikes train hard so they can climb faster, the bike can make a small difference but mostly it's just a tool.
> 
> ...


Motorbike??? How dramatic. LOL!!!

All kinds of people buy performance especially those in the burbs that have more money than time to ride. So spare me the "they train harder" B.S. so they need a 5K bike.

The electric assist is just a tool to ride further and faster, no difference. Oh wait there is a difference the bike elitist want a difference since they have spent so much time and effort that can be overtaken by technology.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> The electric assist is just a tool to ride further and faster, no difference. .


You actually believe this nonsense?


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> Of course, that's where e-bikes get into some murky water. Seems most e-bikers want ride the coat-tails of mountain bikers when it comes to advocacy and proving themselves as responsible trail users. Sorry, but as every reasonable e-bike proponent will admit, they are a new and unique user group, and as such, need to pave their own way. It's not fair to mountain bikers to try to saddle us with being responsible for e-bikes. Mountain bikes don't have motors; it's really as simple as that.


I'm not arguing with your post just giving my opinion of this section of your post.

To anyone outside of the mountain bike world there is little to no distinction between say my FS fatbike and a e-bike from 10 ft away they look the same. E-bike folks are going to ride the trails and it would be better for mountain bikers to embrace the technology and shape it's use instead of trying to say "not me" and distancing from it. Since again non-bikers are not going to see let alone give a rip about the distinction.

I would bet many a e-biker comes from the existing biker ranks, as you get older you look for tech that can keep your previous performance level and enjoyment.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

life behind bars said:


> You actually believe this nonsense?


I can prove it

Take 5 lbs off a bike and you can ride further and faster.
Add 250 watts to a bike and you can ride further and faster

in BOTH cases you have pedal.

So your turn...


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> I can prove it
> 
> Take 5 lbs off a bike and you can ride further and faster.
> Add 250 watts to a bike and you can ride further and faster
> ...


Do it without a motor because that's the core issue, then come back with results.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

life behind bars said:


> Do it without a motor because that's the core issue, then come back with results.


Oh you mean play by your rules LOL!!!!!!

No the core issue is you are OK with buying results using one technology but not another. Since I will guess two things

1) You have a lot of time invested in your riding skills and the fact someone can buy fitness irks you
2) You have never ridden a e-bike so what they are capable of and not capable of you really don't know.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> I'm not arguing with your post just giving my opinion of this section of your post.
> 
> To anyone outside of the mountain bike world there is little to no distinction between say my FS fatbike and a e-bike from 10 ft away they look the same. E-bike folks are going to ride the trails and it would be better for mountain bikers to embrace the technology and shape it's use instead of trying to say "not me" and distancing from it. Since again non-bikers are not going to see let alone give a rip about the distinction.
> 
> I would bet many a e-biker comes from the existing biker ranks, as you get older you look for tech that can keep your previous performance level and enjoyment.


I really don't care where they come from, and you're being wildly presumptuous as far thinking getting older automatically means everyone is going to start trying to shop their way into making everything easier. I turned 51 a couple weeks back, my dad will be 75 soon. Neither of us is dying to strap motors on our bicycles, thanks.

As far people outside the MTB world not being able to tell the difference, I also don't care. You know who DOES know there's a difference? Land managers. Their opinion, which I actually do care about, is really the only one that matters.

This is something many e-bikers don't seem to grasp. Dunno why you guys waste your time trying to convince rank and file mountain bikers to have group hugs with you; we don't write the rules. Take your arguments to those that actually make decisions and see how it goes. Any many cases, that is when you'll learn precisely why most mountain bikers with any knowledge and experience re: advocacy wisely treat e-bikes like a hot potato. We've been through enough trying to get human-powered bike access to where it is today. None of us are interested in having to go back and do it again with the whole "red line" of motors now being in the picture. Ya'll need to go fight your own battles with them and leave mountain bikes and bikers out of it.

I'm perfectly happy to share trails with e-bikes. What I'm not interested in is having to sit in stuffy meeting rooms for hour upon hour and fight for them.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

The same people are comment back and forth with little being gained, so you guys have fun with the thread. I'm going to go and ride my fatbike in the snow having fun and saving my pennies for a mid drive.

Happy trails


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> The same people are comment back and forth with little being gained, so you guys have fun with the thread. I'm going to go and ride my fatbike in the snow having fun and saving my pennies for a mid drive.
> 
> Happy trails


 Later.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> The same people are comment back and forth


Says the guy with the most posts in the thread...sounds to me like you've reached a point where you may just have to admit that there are actually solid points made that don't agree with your stance.

Only one thing left to do!


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Crankout said:


> Empathy for Greg? He's not handicapped or limited in any way. Just too lazy, weak and/or tired to climb is all, which is fine. I garners no empathy from me, though.


Empathy for anyone who doesn't have cycling legs. Could be your GF/wife, children, relative, friend, co-worker, neighbor, community member, etc. The point of the vid was that an ebike enabled people with a fitness gap to ride with one who spent far more time training up their cycling legs.

I get the impression that people in this thread view e-bikers (e-mtbers) as the new wave of shuttlers, coming en masse, not only poaching illegal trails, but also violating a no-motorized-vehicle rule. They come to "shred" and do outlaw-type stuff, terrorizing "legit" trail users. Legit is in quotes, because I suspect they have no right to judge due to not following what they preach, littering, taking short cuts, and making other questionable actions/decisions due to being being lazy, weak, tired, etc. I'm going to point out that human nature that makes you feel good to find people who you can judge to be below you, so your position doesn't seem as bad... you can be bad, but if you find someone worse, you can fix up your self-esteem and claim you are average. xD

I just simply view ebikes as way too expensive to be adopted on a large enough scale to be a problem. Don't people usually have to work their way up to their price points, replacing old bikes with newer more expensive bikes, perhaps to assisst or make up for something they lack? I'm more worried about the junk ebikes and mod-based ones, which lack refinement. There's that one story about the guy who burned down his parent's house with a DIY/kit battery for a bike.

I also view cycling fitness as being niche, as the fitness don't really make you fit at anything else, like swimming or running. Running helps with out-of-the-saddle pedaling. If I didn't sit so much, maybe my cycling would help my running. That's one reason why I'm looking positively at very steep STAs, wondering how far it can go, like the 81d STA on the Pole Stamina. Sitting and pedaling with such a relaxed seat angle helps with what else? Heck, people claim notice a drop in power/efficiency moving up a mere 2 degrees steeper in seat angle, showing how specific such fitness is. That and it fades so fast, if you take a short break. So much time used just to maintain it, and even more to build upon it, for what purpose? In order to have fun with your riding at higher speeds, and have higher self-esteem/ego?

I have faith that the trail access concerns can be fought, merely by arguing that ebikes offer great potential against bigger problems like obesity and pollution from cars. Regular cycling would be better, but the fitness barrier keeps it from being adopted, judging by the people who shuttle their bikes with motor vehicles (even lazier than ebikes), not only to cut out a climb, but cut out the entire distance from their house to the trailhead. I've suggested to people to park a mile away from the trailhead (or a mile away from work) as a compromise, but, while they say they are willing to try, human nature just seems to give in to existing habits and convenience...


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> Motorbike??? How dramatic. LOL!!!


That's what it is, why is that funny? Low powered pedal assist motorbike (ebike) if you prefer.

Upgrading to a more expensive bike will only produce margional gains, no one suddenly starts dusting people on climbs who used to be faster than them just because they bought a $5,000 bike. Unless it's an ebike. Anyone who rides much at all knows that.


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

Funny, I see the "back and forth".

I believe what we have here is an all or nothing debate.

I personally have no dog in this fight. 

But I am a pragmatic a$$#ole.

So here is my take. 

Many individuals will abuse loopholes.

And individuals judge groups by the lowest common denominator. 

So, here is what I suggest you do.

Create an association, and work with manufacturers of ebikes and set some acceptable limits on the bikes.

Then work with the land managers and find middle ground.

Some limits on the ebikes I would ask for:
Limit speed to 10mph
Limit battery capacity

Limits on which trails an ebike is allowed
Can not be used on trails with 5% or less grade hills.

And an inspection permit (yearly).


I believe that will be a fair start.

Allow honest ebikers and other riders to have some ability to police trails and riders accordingly.


----------



## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> 1) You have a lot of time invested in your riding skills and the fact someone can buy fitness irks you
> 2) You have never ridden a e-bike so what they are capable of and not capable of you really don't know.


I get that you're irked by the responses in this thread, but the only way to "buy" fitness and skills on a bike is to pedal and ride it.


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Here's what I don't get, ebike advocates think it's wrong if they're restricted from bike trails. Ebike advocates say that it's the rider, not the bike that's responsible for user conflicts. Ebike advocates say that the trail, not the amount of available power dictates speed.
> 
> Them why do ebike enthusiasts advocate for power limits? And how would they argue against another group or individual who thinks the limit should be higher?
> 
> And why only pedal assist?


Well, to answer that, we all first have to agree on whether an e-bike is a bicycle or a motorcycle. If someone has been bicycling for a long time, and something radically different comes out, I don't really blame them for being biased against an e-bike. But they should take a step back for a moment and pretend they don't bike, and look at a normal mountain bike, an e-bike, and a dirt bike together and see which two are more similar to each other than the third bike. I find it amusing that someone that doesn't even bike will immediately see that the mountain bike and the e-bike are much, much more similar to each other than the dirt bike. It's immediately obvious to the average person, but it's not obvious to a veteran mountain biker, because an e-bike is so different from other bikes within their own little world. If you stepped out of the mountain biking world for a moment, you'd see things much clearer from a different perspective. I don't blame mountain biking veterans for not seeing this issue from a different perspective. This kind of thing happens all the time in all kinds of situations. I've had some friendships and relationships in the past that I thought were OK, and then when they were over, when I could finally step outside them and look at them from the outside, I realized that they sucked all along. When you are in the middle of something, and have dedicated a lot of time and effort to that something, it's not easy to take a step back and look at the situation in a dispassionate and purely analytical way.

If e-bikes tore up trails like dirtbikes, ATV's, Jeeps, and trucks did, then I would agree that they should not be on trails. I would agree 100% to that. But they don't. All they do is (usually) go faster than normal bikes. That pisses some people off. If some Corvette blew away my 21-year old car off the line at a stop sign, you really think I'm going to try and ban Corvettes from street surfaces? Of course not. If everyone kept their ego in check we would not be having these fights.

As far as user conflicts are concerned, everyone should be polite no matter what they are riding. The few obnoxious e-bike riders are ruining it for the rest of us, and in turn for the normal mountain bikers. Don't flaunt your e-power towards a normal mountain bike rider, that helps nothing. Be humble and friendly to everyone, fellow bikers, hikers, dog walkers, families, everyone. It's stupid to flaunt e-bike power; anyone can ramp up the pedal assist or twist a throttle, there is no talent to that. I have a very positive feeling that as e-bikes grow in popularity, the trail access situation will actually get better, not worse, because everyone on the trail, biking or not, will get accustomed to seeing them, and will realize that they are not a loud, polluting, destructive threat compared to dirt bikes or ATV's. They will be just another bike out there, going a little bit faster. But the e-bike riders still need to be polite to everyone and not show off their speed. Plenty of time and space to do that alone out there. E-bike acceptance is dependent on the rider being polite and practicing proper trail etiquette.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Hawk258 said:


> Limit speed to 10mph


Who would buy one?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

@rich-. it's an ebike, not a bicycle or a motorcycle.


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

People with bad knees that still want to ride, or other "limiting medical issue" that would prevent them from enjoying the steeper trails.


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

richj8990 said:


> Well, to answer that, we all first have to agree on whether an e-bike is a bicycle or a motorcycle. If someone has been bicycling for a long time, and something radically different comes out, I don't really blame them for being biased against an e-bike. But they should take a step back for a moment and pretend they don't bike, and look at a normal mountain bike, an e-bike, and a dirt bike together and see which two are more similar to each other than the third bike. I find it amusing that someone that doesn't even bike will immediately see that the mountain bike and the e-bike are much, much more similar to each other than the dirt bike. It's immediately obvious to the average person, but it's not obvious to a veteran mountain biker, because an e-bike is so different from other bikes within their own little world. If you stepped out of the mountain biking world for a moment, you'd see things much clearer from a different perspective. I don't blame mountain biking veterans for not seeing this issue from a different perspective. This kind of thing happens all the time in all kinds of situations. I've had some friendships and relationships in the past that I thought were OK, and then when they were over, when I could finally step outside them and look at them from the outside, I realized that they sucked all along. When you are in the middle of something, and have dedicated a lot of time and effort to that something, it's not easy to take a step back and look at the situation in a dispassionate and purely analytical way.
> 
> If e-bikes tore up trails like dirtbikes, ATV's, Jeeps, and trucks did, then I would agree that they should not be on trails. I would agree 100% to that. But they don't. All they do is (usually) go faster than normal bikes. That pisses some people off. If some Corvette blew away my 21-year old car off the line at a stop sign, you really think I'm going to try and ban Corvettes from street surfaces? Of course not. If everyone kept their ego in check we would not be having these fights.
> 
> As far as user conflicts are concerned, everyone should be polite no matter what they are riding. The few obnoxious e-bike riders are ruining it for the rest of us, and in turn for the normal mountain bikers. Don't flaunt your e-power towards a normal mountain bike rider, that helps nothing. Be humble and friendly to everyone, fellow bikers, hikers, dog walkers, families, everyone. It's stupid to flaunt e-bike power; anyone can ramp up the pedal assist or twist a throttle, there is no talent to that. I have a very positive feeling that as e-bikes grow in popularity, the trail access situation will actually get better, not worse, because everyone on the trail, biking or not, will get accustomed to seeing them, and will realize that they are not a loud, polluting, destructive threat compared to dirt bikes or ATV's. They will be just another bike out there, going a little bit faster. But the e-bike riders still need to be polite to everyone and not show off their speed. Plenty of time and space to do that alone out there. E-bike acceptance is dependent on the rider being polite and practicing proper trail etiquette.


I think we can classify an ebike as a "scooter" or moped.

is limited to 35 mph or less and not designed to operate on the freeway.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> @rich-. it's an ebike, not a bicycle or a motorcycle.


Precisely.


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

In fact I believe that ebike owners are being given alot of leniency. 

They are not required to have turn signals or stop indicators or a speedometer. 

Which personally I believe should be required for road use.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Hawk258 said:


> People with bad knees that still want to ride, or other "limiting medical issue" that would prevent them from enjoying the steeper trails.


Aging out is inevitable.


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> Aging out is inevitable.


Bad knees isn't necessarily age related. A bad knee or a knee injury can happen any time and there are many levels of injury.

And admittedly I wouldn't want to be told it's all or nothing either.

I am "open" to limited ebike use, with specific limitations.

Speed, limited to specific trails and a tagging fee.

Which I believe is fair.

While I agree ebikes do have the capacity to do more damage to the trails, the limits I proposed and tagging would assist in limiting the additional damage and provide funds to help deal with the damage.


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> The same people are comment back and forth with little being gained, so you guys have fun with the thread. I'm going to go and ride my fatbike in the snow having fun and saving my pennies for a mid drive.
> 
> Happy trails


Cool. And keep your head in the sand. You'll go far.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Hawk258 said:


> Bad knees isn't necessarily age related. A bad knee or a knee injury can happen any time and there are many levels of injury.
> 
> And admittedly I wouldn't want to be told it's all or nothing either.
> 
> ...


Banning them outright limits the damage as well.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Good to see the bike elitist attitude is not dead.
> 
> God forbid that two friends that want to ride together more find a way to do so that does not meet the approval of the bike elitists.


So how far do we take this? Remove those pesky rocks that someone may not have the skills to ride, you know, so they can ride with their more skilled friend? Heck, let's pave all the trails, that will make it easier for everyone to ride with their friends. Let's build stairs/ladders into the rock faces so we can all go rock climbing. Some people can't swim; drain the lakes, rivers and ponds so they aren't so deep! Let's make the holes on golf courses 4' diameter, bet I could putt into that with my golf playing coworkers. I suck at basketball, can we lower all the goals to 7ft and make the hoops bigger?

Yes, if you pass me on an ebike, I very well may try to catch you. Not because I think I can, I have no delusions that I can outrun a vehicle with a motor. But when ride, I may speed up if someone catches me or I may speed up to catch a runner; if I'm running I may speed up to catch a bike; I've sped up when I've found myself amongst a high school cross country team and a group of Rangers. I've passed guys on triathlon bikes on my fixed gear bike and I've also been passed by guys on mountain bikes when riding my road bike. I just use it all as motivation to push myself. I keep in mind that the other people may be doing way more distance than I am so they are going at a slower pace, or they just like a slower pace or they may be finishing or a million other reasons. It's not a race. So if you pass me with a motor, no ego problems on my end.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> Good to see the bike elitist attitude is not dead.
> 
> God forbid that two friends that want to ride together more find a way to do so that does not meet the approval of the bike elitists.


God forbid that two friends that want to ride together more won't, because one doesn't want to wait for the other. I'm always puzzled by how not waiting for, or not causing someone else to wait for a couple of minutes on a climb is somehow a significant enough issue to justify changing DOT laws to allow users to use a motorized vehicle on a non motorized trail. I've been riding mtbs for over 30 years, sometimes I have to wait for friends, more usually, they wait for me. It's fine, it's a social sport.

I can't wait for trail runners to start lobbying for jet packs since they're tired of their running partners having to wait for them.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Harryman said:


> God forbid that two friends that want to ride together more won't, because one doesn't want to wait for the other. I'm always puzzled by how not waiting for, or not causing someone else to wait for a couple of minutes on a climb is somehow a significant enough issue to justify changing DOT laws to allow users to use a motorized vehicle on a non motorized trail. I've been riding mtbs for over 30 years, sometimes I have to wait for friends, more usually, they wait for me. It's fine, it's a social sport.
> 
> I can't wait for trail runners to start lobbying for jet packs since they're tired of their running partners having to wait for them.


My friends always wait for me at the top of the climbs because I have a 38lb passenger on my bike when I ride these days.
I also have a tear in my aorta and am on enough BP medication I cannot get my Heart Rate above 145bmp when riding, it is physically impossible.

I am the perfect candidate for an eBike according to many people out there, but I am not going to get one. There is a bigger sense of personal accomplishment for me when I get to the top.

I also don't care if someone else decides to ride an eBike legally and get to the top faster than me. Mountain Biking is a different sport than eBiking.


----------



## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

That's because you've never really got fit riding, that's all. I consider the response from friends and other people _(they were not impressed I could do that time when I never run and they all train hard)_ the first time I decided to run a 5k the day after placing in an MTB race and finishing just sub 25 minutes, having never run any form of running race before or do any form of running and that was with an about 4 minute stop to P. But yeah, doesn't transfer well at all 



ninjichor said:


> I also view cycling fitness as being niche, as the fitness don't really make you fit at anything else, like swimming or running. Running helps with out-of-the-saddle pedaling. If I didn't sit so much, maybe my cycling would help my running. That's one reason why I'm looking positively at very steep STAs, wondering how far it can go, like the 81d STA on the Pole Stamina. Sitting and pedaling with such a relaxed seat angle helps with what else? Heck, people claim notice a drop in power/efficiency moving up a mere 2 degrees steeper in seat angle, showing how specific such fitness is. That and it fades so fast, if you take a short break. So much time used just to maintain it, and even more to build upon it, for what purpose? In order to have fun with your riding at higher speeds, and have higher self-esteem/ego?


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> Banning them outright limits the damage as well.


And inappropriate in my opinion.

I believe there is room to compromise.

For 2 reasons.

That argument is fuel for the extreme environmentalists to say if you agree that banning ebikes is fine then let's ban all recreational activities in the mountains.

The other is

Mountain biking is financial drag on national forest revenue which Ebiking could contribute to funding trail maintenance.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Hawk258 said:


> And inappropriate in my opinion.
> 
> I believe there is room to compromise.
> 
> ...


Exclusions are part and parcel of advocacy and land use. I've yet to see an E-motorbiker at a trail day and further more do not see how having an electric motor is going to contribute to trail funding. Having an electric motor could and will lead to the loss of some trails and entire trail networks though. You really should become more aware of the nuances of what it really takes to get access in the first place, fund and build trail in the second, and then manage to keep it. E-motorbikers could always advocate for their own trails too.


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> Exclusions are part and parcel of advocacy and land use. I've yet to see an E-motorbiker at a trail day and further more do not see how having an electric motor is going to contribute to trail funding. Having an electric motor could and will lead to the loss of some trails and entire trail networks though. You really should become more aware of the nuances of what it really takes to get access in the first place, fund and build trail in the second, and then manage to keep it. E-motorbikers could always advocate for their own trails too.


By having a usage tag and fee and limited to specific trails and speed limits.

5% grade trails or greater and can't exceed 10 mph.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Hawk258 said:


> By having a usage tag and fee and limited to specific trails and speed limits.
> 
> 5% grade trails or greater and can't exceed 10 mph.


And who is going to pay for enforcement?


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> And who is going to pay for enforcement?


Well many riders have go pro cameras. And you can issue citizen citations.

But that's part of the tagging process. 10mph limit on the mechanical drive.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

LyNx said:


> That's because you've never really got fit riding, that's all. I consider the response from friends and other people _(they were not impressed I could do that time when I never run and they all train hard)_ the first time I decided to run a 5k the day after placing in an MTB race and finishing just sub 25 minutes, having never run any form of running race before or do any form of running and that was with an about 4 minute stop to P. But yeah, doesn't transfer well at all


Your 5k time correlates with non-disabled, non-overweight beginner results.

When I was commuting by bike, co-workers would ask if I'd join their team for a run, since I had a fit looking body. My case is a bit different, as I'm not exactly sweating my ass off commuting, the normal duration/distance (8 mi in 30-35 min) makes any shorter distances seem like cake, and I ran long distance for the high school track team. I could do a 18-19 min 5k after maybe 2 weeks of training, since I had experience and muscle memory saying that pace was quite comfortable for me to hold. The training was just to ensure my legs can handle the impact and get comfortable with such range of motion again. I didn't find myself dying at the finish like my co-workers; I had the cardio and will, but not the legs.

I dunno why you get the impression that such a time is a result of cycling fitness. I also don't consider back-to-back races considerably taxing. People in my area race XC/SuperD one day (Saturday), and DH the next day (Sunday). Enduro stage races are split across multiple days too. Get a Tour de France racer, _who didn't have a running background_, to do a sub-17 min pace 5k, using their superior cycling fitness to beat my time. I suspect a climber could, but I'd expect someone who plants their ass in the saddle for hours at a time at a comfortable pace to do possibly worse, considering the lack of running experience. I wouldn't be surprised if a pro cyclocross rider gets a sub-17 min 5k.

Triathlon bikes do have considerably steeper seat angles too. 77ish on many, with seatposts to adjust that. Some controversy regarding old advice saying "steeper is better", but I'd like to explore this more to see if there is merit behind the idea of tuning STA to work the same muscle groups that running uses.


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Looking at the video and a blog I read made an interesting point. E-Bikes aren't really an issue until someone in your group gets one. What happens when Paul wants to keep up with Brig on the climbs? He has to get an e-bike too.

Same for the group dynamic, once one person gets one and does a sixty k loop instead of the normal twenty, how will that work?


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

Mudguard said:


> Looking at the video and a blog I read made an interesting point. E-Bikes aren't really an issue until someone in your group gets one. What happens when Paul wants to keep up with Brig on the climbs? He has to get an e-bike too.
> 
> Same for the group dynamic, once one person gets one and does a sixty k loop instead of the normal twenty, how will that work?


That's where the 10 mph and 5% grade or higher with permit comes in.


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

endurosquatch said:


> Just when you're thinking this thread can't get any more ridiculous, this loon proves you wrong.


How do you enforce littering?

Or any other crime that happens on the trails?


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

endurosquatch said:


> I don't enforce littering on the trails.
> 
> The people that do handle crimes that happen on the trails don't use gopros or citizen citations.
> 
> You're ridiculous.


Well how do you expect to ban ebikes from trails then?


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

So... in otherwords it's legal until someone complains or stands there and enforces the rule...

Just like every other law.

Unless our peers keep others honest there is very little to do to prevent someone from doing what they want.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

richj8990 said:


> Well, to answer that, we all first have to agree on whether an e-bike is a bicycle or a motorcycle. If someone has been bicycling for a long time, and something radically different comes out, I don't really blame them for being biased against an e-bike. But they should take a step back for a moment and pretend they don't bike, and look at a normal mountain bike, an e-bike, and a dirt bike together and see which two are more similar to each other than the third bike. I find it amusing that someone that doesn't even bike will immediately see that the mountain bike and the e-bike are much, much more similar to each other than the dirt bike..


This is the point that many of us are trying to hammer home to you guys. THEY LOOK EXACTLY LIKE MOUNTAIN BIKES TO MOST PEOPLE ON THE TRAIL. They will just get faster and faster and look more like real bikes every year.


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

sfgiantsfan said:


> This is the point that many of us are trying to hammer home to you guys. THEY LOOK EXACTLY LIKE MOUNTAIN BIKES TO MOST PEOPLE ON THE TRAIL. They will just get faster and faster and look more like real bikes every year.


Which is why I would classify it as a moped. And why I am willing to offer a middle ground.

Unlike some I see an opportunity to provide funding for trail management.

But it also needs the group to keep people honest.


----------



## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> "Brig loves everything about mountain biking" , quickly followed by "Brig hates climbing".


Brig needs to tuffen the fv<k up!!!!!

I also didnt watch that whole advertisment for ebikes, although they do mention that Brig knows how more pedalling will give him more access, nice how they tied that in.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

richj8990 said:


> It's funny how there is so much hate for e-bikes, but when you ask them exactly why, and any solid evidence for why they should be banned, there is a big pause, or a disorganized rant. I'm still waiting on someone to show the evidence for why they should be banned in a civilized and organized manner. Then and only then can there be a gentleman's debate. Until then, tribal mudslinging.


You either aren't paying attention or are intentionally ignoring many, many well constructed posts explaining the issues of calling e-bikes bicycles.



Hawk258 said:


> Well many riders have go pro cameras. And you can issue citizen citations.
> 
> But that's part of the tagging process. 10mph limit on the mechanical drive.


So you're advocating for increased trail conflicts and the likelihood of physical altercations?


----------



## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Because the winning time was only somewhere just under 16 minutes AFAIR, that by a tri-athlete who competes internationally and podiums, because all the rest of the 30+ year olds with lives who do actually run and train were only right there (I was nearly 40 then) and the fact that I have NEVER run except back on primary school and hell yes it is because of bike fitness, as I do NOTHING else to keep fit but ride my bike and do trail work. The fact that you don't think your bike commuting transferred over as fitness to run is just plain stupid, no matter the fact that you ran track back in high school, your fitness was from riding your bike.



ninjichor said:


> Your 5k time correlates with non-disabled, non-overweight beginner results.
> 
> When I was commuting by bike, co-workers would ask if I'd join their team for a run, since I had a fit looking body. My case is a bit different, as I'm not exactly sweating my ass off commuting, the normal duration/distance (8 mi in 30-35 min) makes any shorter distances seem like cake, and I ran long distance for the high school track team. I could do a 18-19 min 5k after maybe 2 weeks of training, since I had experience and muscle memory saying that pace was quite comfortable for me to hold. The training was just to ensure my legs can handle the impact and get comfortable with such range of motion again. I didn't find myself dying at the finish like my co-workers; I had the cardio and will, but not the legs.
> 
> .........


Because, as several e-biker lovers have said, you can't tell them easily from a regular bike and they can be hacked as easy as you can over clock RAM on any computer. Until they have some form of hardware key that is locked to control those things and they broadcast a wireless signal that's read at the entrance to every trail and at points throughout, to prove their capabilities, and have logs sent to said "readers" to prove the haven't got a hacked key/dongle, how do you "police" them :skep:

I know a guy 60+ years old, bragged to me that the very next day after he bought his levo he "unlocked" it and thought it was funny that he could zoom past all the younger guys who are muich stronger and fitter than him on the toughest climbs. That sentiment has been shared by pretty much every e-bike owner I've talked to, which points to the fact that lazy humans will find a way to hack anything that's not hard-locked with an unhackable key, and the $$ it would take to police them, just isn't feasable.


Hawk258 said:


> And inappropriate in my opinion.
> 
> I believe there is room to compromise.For 2 reasons.
> 
> ...


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Hawk258 said:


> So... in otherwords it's legal until someone complains or stands there and enforces the rule...
> 
> Just like every other law.
> 
> Unless our peers keep others honest there is very little to do to prevent someone from doing what they want.


 Rules and laws, who follows those? I got a stick for your front wheel, would that help? JK. In MA, mt biking still has access issues and hurdles, the community would actually take action if they thought that trail access was threatened.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

LyNx said:


> Because the winning time was only somewhere just under 16 minutes AFAIR, that by a tri-athlete who competes internationally and podiums, because all the rest of the 30+ year olds with lives who do actually run and train were only right there (I was nearly 40 then) and the fact that I have NEVER run except back on primary school and hell yes it is because of bike fitness, as I do NOTHING else to keep fit but ride my bike and do trail work. The fact that you don't think your bike commuting transferred over as fitness to run is just plain stupid, no matter the fact that you ran track back in high school, your fitness was from riding your bike.
> 
> Because, as several e-biker lovers have said, you can't tell them easily from a regular bike and they can be hacked as easy as you can over clock RAM on any computer. Until they have some form of hardware key that is locked to control those things and they broadcast a wireless signal that's read at the entrance to every trail and at points throughout, to prove their capabilities, and have logs sent to said "readers" to prove the haven't got a hacked key/dongle, how do you "police" them :skep:
> 
> I know a guy 60+ years old, bragged to me that the very next day after he bought his levo he "unlocked" it and thought it was funny that he could zoom past all the younger guys who are muich stronger and fitter than him on the toughest climbs. That sentiment has been shared by pretty much every e-bike owner I've talked to, which points to the fact that lazy humans will find a way to hack anything that's not hard-locked with an unhackable key, and the $$ it would take to police them, just isn't feasable.


Cardio fitness is one thing. Having the muscles is another. Board sports have "muscle memory" that transfer well to each other (snowboarding, surfing), leaving people to experience the change in physics between the different surfaces. Skiing transfers to other sports with similar motions and position (skating), but not so much to the board sports, with nordic being different to other types. Hard to think of anything that pedaling in the saddle directly transfers to; heck, people are sensitive about having their bike quivers having different geo, like being unable to switch between a steep STA bike and a relaxed STA bike. I'm at the point where I mostly care about understanding the fundamental physics between the wheels and the ground, treating my own fitness and the bike as something that can be changed. The physics you learn from each crosses over, like gravity/DH skiing to gravity/DH cycling technique, but the fitness to handle such is built up specific to the discipline.

I picture fitness progression as being steps in a staircase. If I did a year where I pushed my physical fitness from an average of 12 mph pace, on a local offroad loop (10 miles, 1000 ft), and improved it to 13.5 mph pace by end of the year, I see that as me *creating new steps at the top of the staircase that didn't exist*. The steps don't disappear, but you can drop a few steps/levels when due to a break or injury. The effort it takes to climb up steps that have been previously created is much different than the perceived effort it takes to go to limits beyond, 13.5 to 14+ mph pace (creating a new step).

The reason why the effort between creating a new step and regaining fitness is so different is partly because humans have built-in "safety barriers". Individuals take a certain amount of caution when trying something new/unknown. I see the process of progressing as hitting a zone between plateauing/maintaining current capability and breakdown/injury. The harder you push to progress faster, the more risk you take on. If you've already experienced things before, the risk seems manageable, since you have already found solutions to counter them the last time you reached those levels, hence why it's faster to regain fitness. When you reach the unknown again, you're left searching for a way to bypass such a barrier, and plain working harder isn't always good (overtraining). Sometimes it takes something like hydration strategy, a different set of clothes that regulates body temp better, joining someone who already reached that level to provide guidance and motivation, and/or even a new bike/equipment. Those with talent seemingly bypass these safety barriers intuitively.

To reiterate my point in a prior post, it takes a long time to build up cycling legs, and I question the value of having cycling legs. That, and poor habits can be built up while riding slow--what you practice gets put into muscle memory. I believe it's better to learn from following riders at their "natural" or "sweet spot" speeds, at the specific trail's sweet spot speed, and the bike's sweet spot speed, to improve the riding experience. If I wanted to train up a new rider, I'd be checking out emtbs as one of the better platforms to get them started, hitting the ground running, in what I consider to be safer*. I don't value all the "error" in trial and error. I value the fundamental baby steps, and getting cycling fitness barrier out of the way puts you right into the physics and techniques needed to venture out into the backcountry, which is where I consider the depth of mtn biking is. I don't want to be giving my time, I want to be sharing "real" experience. They'd need fitness for that still, but just cardio and some specific bursts of muscular strength, but not endurance in the legs.

* better suspension (designed to move, rather than designed to save weight/energy), tires (not low grip, low rolling resistance), and less panicked dismounts from going too slow & getting "tripped up" when not having enough momentum to clear obstacles.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

ninjichor said:


> Empathy for anyone who doesn't have cycling legs. Could be your GF/wife, children, relative, friend, co-worker, neighbor, community member, etc. The point of the vid was that an ebike enabled people with a fitness gap to ride with one who spent far more time training up their cycling legs.
> ...


My dislike of e-bikes is based on my feeling that the time and effort put into biking are rewarded with improved fitness. Ebikes are an end-around, and I can't get beyond that.

Therefore, I have no empathy for someone who isn't willing to work for it. I'll ride slower or wait up like any respectable friend or spouse, etc.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

chazpat said:


> Yes, if you pass me on an ebike, I very well may try to catch you. Not because I think I can, I have no delusions that I can outrun a vehicle with a motor. .


I've passed ebikers and have enjoyed being smug during the process...


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

dbhammercycle said:


> I get that you're irked by the responses in this thread, but the only way to "buy" fitness and skills on a bike is to pedal and ride it.


Irked??? No far from it, I am amused. LOL!!!

The fitness hazing is strong in many of you.
The "get off my lawn" is strong in many of you.
The pure ignorance of what effects e-bikes have is strong in many of you.
The hatred for anything different is strong in many of you.

Watching people get pissed of on an internet forum is pure gold.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> Says the guy with the most posts in the thread...sounds to me like you've reached a point where you may just have to admit that there are actually solid points made that don't agree with your stance.
> 
> Only one thing left to do!


I was waiting for a post like this and was not disappointed.

There are no "solid points" being made that don't agree with my stance.

See my post above for what I see a lot of on this thread from those that don't like e-bikes.

Frankly there is no discussion to be had so why continue it?

There is difference of opinion and there are those with closed minds guess which category most of you folks fall under?

Just good to see many being honest and admitting they dislike e-bikes because it is a way to buy climbing ability and how dare someone do that.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

What if you don’t give a crap about fitness? What’s wrong with just using a bike, any bike, as a tool to get out on the trail and to get away from the city? I rode MTBs because I love two wheeled vehicles not because I love to exercise. Ebikes were a godsend once I hit 62 or 63, I could triple the distance I spent two wheeling and do it every day of the week.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Crankout said:


> I've passed ebikers and have enjoyed being smug during the process...


 I passed old fashioned MTB too, but didn't give a **** because who cares: it's meaningless, you ride your ride and I'll ride mine. Unless it's a race who cares who is in front.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

WoodlandHills said:


> I passed old fashioned MTB too, but didn't give a **** because who cares: it's meaningless, you ride your ride and I'll ride mine. Unless it's a race who cares who is in front.


You are hitting on what seems to be the real root of issue and that is those that have an advantage (in this case climbing) want to keep it.

Since:
e-mtb ride on the same wheels and tires as a normal bike so no more/no less trail damage.
e-mtb don't make much more noise than a standard mtb
e-mtb don't spin their wheels causing ruts and such (that is dramatic nonsense, yes you can find DIY systems that allow those but that is the exception to the rule)
e-mtb don't go downhill any faster because of the electric motor.
douchbag is a douchbag regardless of the two wheels they are on, the e-mtb does not change that.

As is being openly admitted now this is all about climbing and some being upset that their fitness level is not as special as they feel it is when technology can be applied. As you correctly stated and was stated in the video if you're not racing who cares.

I will add there seems to be a lot of fear and misunderstand of the technology in question and fear causes hatred.


----------



## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> Watching people get pissed of on an internet forum is pure gold.


I'll drink my golden ale to that!


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> There are no "solid points" being made that don't agree with my stance.


Sorry but you are just wrong in posting that. There have been a number of solid posts from reputable members who are very active in trail access in the area's they live in.

Just because you are not being reasonable does not mean no one else has a solid point. This is not a one-side is right issue. There are pro's and cons on both sides and valid points on both sides.

Please try and be reasonable.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> Sorry but you are just wrong in posting that. There have been a number of solid posts from reputable members who are very active in trail access in the area's they live in.


I will disagree, since I see:
* fear of new technology 
* fear of losing climbing superiority 
not solid points.



> Just because you are not being reasonable does not mean no one else has a solid point. This is not a one-side is right issue. There are pro's and cons on both sides and valid points on both sides.


LOL!!! I'm not being reasonable???? Wow how so???

I have tried to be reasonable and have gotten nothing positive back. Just more of the same typical response you see on this topic "get off my trails", "you're cheating on climbs", "it's a motorcycle" blah blah blah

So lots of "solid points" if you consider emotional response "solid" which I don't.

Give me the facts of why e-mtb are an issue and you might convince me. But "they are illegal", "they will get trails costed", "it's cheating on climbs" are not facts (well the illegal one might be depending on the trail).

I admit it I like the tech since it makes me feel like a 12 year old enjoying bike riding again, at least on the road. I have not ridden a e-mtb yet but I definitely want to try one given how my commuter makes biking fun.

Again I am more than willing to listen to valid factual concerns not emotional and at times elitist 'facts"



> Please try and be reasonable.


I don't see you Klurejr sending the same message to those that don't like e-bikes and they are the ones that hijacked the thread from the original topic by post #9.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> Irked??? No far from it, I am amused. LOL!!!
> 
> The fitness hazing is strong in many of you.
> The "get off my lawn" is strong in many of you.
> ...


 Guess you're done riding? It's not hate for me. If you ride legal, no issues. Poaching, no bueno.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

leeboh said:


> Guess you're done riding? It's not hate for me. If you ride legal, no issues. Poaching, no bueno.


Yup had a nice night ride and you?

Here is the problem for anti e-bike folks, this technology is advancing. Bike shops are selling it and people figure if the bike shop is selling it, it must be ok to ride on the trails.

Times are changing just as they did for hikers and horse back riders when mountain bikes came along and wanted to use the trails. Trying to ban something has historically never worked yet people keep on attempting that idea since it is a easy default method.

Embrace the technology and bring it into the fold helping shape the tech and users of said tech. Or continue and expand the fights that have have worked out so well (high sarcasm) between hikers, bikers and horse riders. Lets learn from history and try a new way.


----------



## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

"Why can't we hikers, horse riders, bikers and ebikers all get along?" -Rodney King


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Mudguard said:


> Looking at the video and a blog I read made an interesting point. E-Bikes aren't really an issue until someone in your group gets one. What happens when Paul wants to keep up with Brig on the climbs? He has to get an e-bike too.
> 
> Same for the group dynamic, once one person gets one and does a sixty k loop instead of the normal twenty, how will that work?


Excellent point.

So ebikes don't solve the problem of allowing slower riders to keep up with their faster friends as many claim, it merely reverses the roles. Now the bicyclist is the slower rider that can't keep up with his/her faster motorized friend. And faster speeds on the trails very well *might* cause issues with other trail users, so the problem has been made worse rather than being solved as claimed. I've mentioned several times that if what so many ebikers claim, that it is just a little help getting up the hills, that it allows people to keep up with faster riders; then they should push for emtbs to be limited to much lower speed assist and only kick on going uphill but the ebikers don't seem to want to get behind this idea.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

chazpat said:


> Excellent point.
> 
> So ebikes don't solve the problem of allowing slower riders to keep up with their faster friends as many claim, it merely reverses the roles. Now the bicyclist is the slower rider that can't keep up with his/her faster motorized friend. And faster speeds on the trails very well *might* cause issues with other trail users, so the problem has been made worse rather than being solved as claimed. I've mentioned several times that if what so many ebikers claim, that it is just a little help getting up the hills, that it allows people to keep up with faster riders; then they should push for emtbs to be limited to much lower speed assist and only kick on going uphill but the ebikers don't seem to want to get behind this idea.


Have you ever ridden an electric assist bike? I am assuming no since you would know why e-bikers don't go with your idea if you have ridden one.

Here is a list I did earlier tell me which of these are false:

e-mtb ride on the same wheels and tires as a normal bike so no more/no less trail damage.
e-mtb don't make much more noise than a standard mtb
e-mtb don't spin their wheels causing ruts and such (that is dramatic nonsense, yes you can find DIY systems that allow those but that is the exception to the rule)
e-mtb don't go downhill any faster because of the electric motor.
douchbag is a douchbag regardless of the two wheels they are on, the e-mtb does not change that.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> Yup had a nice night ride and you?
> 
> Here is the problem for folks like you, this technology is advancing. Bike shops are selling it and people figure if the bike shop is selling it, it must be ok to ride on the trails.
> 
> ...


 Going to ride the fatty in the cold on Sat. You seem to be naive about how trail access works in different parts of the US. You should read up on it. Ever hear of the Sierra Club, AMC, The Pacific coast trail, Wilderness regs, BLM or the US forest service? Add in a huge mess of state, federal, wildlife, natural areas, hunting lands as well as conservation and local access rules. Dude. How long have dirt bikes been around? Since the 60"s or so? Motorized access is limited in many areas. Some places not so much. E bikes have motors. Start there. Many places consider them to be ( wait for it) motorized vehicles. MA guy here, mt bikes are STILL banned in some areas on some trails here. Adding a motor to a human powered device changes the equation. And dirt bikes and ATVs' have been banned for public trails for 2 decades or so( save for 7 or so places on state land)And 2 of my shops are NOT SELLING e mt bikes. 1 does nothing, the other does great sales for e commuters, makes great sense. Why? The closest legal riding area in this state is 60 miles away. And its a rutted mess of dirt bike and atv tracks. Nice. One needs to change the laws first. Not because its new tech. It seems it is you who needs to do some history learning. Want access? Do your own advocating. Go to meetings, gather your crew, show up to do trail work days just like mt bikers have done for the last 25 or so years. Now the mt bikers have become THE resource( at least in my area) for trail work, advocacy and general trail management. Who do you think the land managers and decision makers will listen to when the ask about e bikes? The folks that have become a great resource for them or someone who says" Ya, new tech. it's just the same thing, kind of" But not really.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

leeboh said:


> Going to ride the fatty in the cold on Sat.


Fellow fat biker yay!!!!



> You seem to be naive about how trail access works in different parts of the US. You should read up on it.


I know how trail access works. I also accept the fact people violate it all the time.



> Ever hear of the Sierra Club, AMC, The Pacific coast trail, Wilderness regs, BLM or the US forest service?


No never heard of them in 23+ years of mountain biking. Good lord :madman:



> E bikes have motors. Start there.


Stop just stop with this trying to compare e-bikes to motorcycles that is dramatic at best. 
There is no discussion to be had reading through your post that goes on and on about ATV's and motorcycles trying to make the comparison to e-bikes. You have a very incorrect view of the capabilities of the technology as it being applied.



> Do your own advocating. Go to meetings, gather your crew, show up to do trail work days just like mt bikers have done for the last 25 or so years. Now the mt bikers have become THE resource( at least in my area) for trail work, advocacy and general trail management. Who do you think the land managers and decision makers will listen to when the ask about e bikes? The folks that have become a great resource for them or someone who says" Ya, new tech. it's just the same thing, kind of" But not really.


See my post above that already covers this. Bike shops are selling these bikes, people feel that since the bikes shops are selling them they must be legal. They look like a bike, they smell like a bike, they ride like a bike so to most people they are a bike.

But it is plainly obvious folks like you rather continue the failed fighting vs. a new way of shaping the future. Got it.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> I was waiting for a post like this and was not disappointed.
> 
> There are no "solid points" being made that don't agree with my stance.
> 
> ...


You either willfully ignored or completely failed to comprehend every single thing I said in this thread. Good job!


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> You either willfully ignored or completely failed to comprehend every single thing I said in this thread. Good job!


Not the readers fault if you can't get your point across.

Plus there are what 4-5 anti e-bike folks on this thread and I am supposed to remember which posts and points an individual poster is making? LOL!!!!
You are very mistake if you think this is a personal conversation between the two of us.

I'll tell you what here is a list tell me which of these is false:

e-mtb ride on the same wheels and tires as a normal bike so no more/no less trail damage.
e-mtb don't make much more noise than a standard mtb
e-mtb don't spin their wheels causing ruts and such (that is dramatic nonsense, yes you can find DIY systems that allow those but that is the exception to the rule)
e-mtb don't go downhill any faster because of the electric motor.
douchbag is a douchbag regardless of the two wheels they are on, the e-mtb does not change that.

Because again i am more than willing to hear factual reasons e-bikes are a threat. Please don't repeat the e-bikes are the same as motorcycles and ATV's, because they have a motor, since they are not. Anyone that wants to claim motorcycles/ATV are the same as e-bikes do not understand the technology, what it is capable of and how it is being applied in the the mountain biking wold.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> Fellow fat biker yay!!!!
> 
> I know how trail access works. I also accept the fact people violate it all the time.
> 
> ...


 OK, you get 1 point for fatbiking. Next. Not trying to compare them to a dirt bike and atvs. The fact is that most land mangers and some agencies consider them to be motorized vehicles. Your analogy is not working. Dirt bikes and atvs are sold every where, snow machines too, yet the are NOT legal everywhere. Bikes don't have motors, e bikes are different and need to be treated as such. You seem to think otherwise. For so many, it's a clear line in the sand. It's the motor. Just ride legal, no issues. Failed fighting? Hmmm. The ebikes have no access here. The work is on them. Going to need my pogies tomorrow.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Have you ever ridden an electric assist bike? I am assuming no since you would know why e-bikers don't go with your idea if you have ridden one.
> 
> Here is a list I did earlier tell me which of these are false:
> 
> ...


Just as with Slaphead, your reply to my post doesn't even address my post. Just a cut and paste from one of your earlier posts. And why do I need to ride one, a lot of ebikers say they are just like riding a bicycle, which seems to be what you keep posting.

So please tell us: why don't e-bikers don't go with my idea?


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

leeboh said:


> OK, you get 1 point for fatbiking. Next. Not trying to compare them to a dirt bike and atvs. The fact is that most land mangers and some agencies consider them to be motorized vehicles. Your analogy is not working. Dirt bikes and atvs are sold every where, snow machines too, yet the are NOT legal everywhere. Bikes don't have motors, e bikes are different and need to be treated as such. You seem to think otherwise. For so many, it's a clear line in the sand. It's the motor. Just ride legal, no issues. Failed fighting? Hmmm. The ebikes have no access here. The work is on them. Going to need my pogies tomorrow.


Again: They look like a bike, they smell like a bike, they ride like a bike so to most people they are a bike.

You might not like that statement but to most people it's true.

What I mean by failed fighting is the fighting that has been going on for decades between hikers, biker and horse riders. Those groups should be working TOGETHER to get access but instead they fight each for a piece of the pie.

Now you might not like my fat bike since it is a FS rig, although I am building a fully ridged which unfortunately has a 120 BB so no BAFANG for that bike.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Again: They look like a bike, they smell like a bike, they ride like a bike so to most people they are a bike.
> 
> You might not like that statement but to most people it's true.


But yet I need to ride an ebike to know what riding an ebike is like?


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

chazpat said:


> But yet I need to ride an ebike to know what riding an ebike is like?


I feel you are attempting to make some kind of snarky comment but I just can figure it out.

Yes I highly encourage you to take a spin on one if anything to learn what the topic is actually about instead of working from assumption.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Not the readers fault if you can't get your point across.
> 
> Plus there are what 4-5 anti e-bike folks on this thread and I am supposed to remember which posts and points an individual poster is making?


Seriously?

Top secret pro-level internet user tip: people's usernames are included in their posts. 
I know, I know...shocking but true!

I guess the whole 'not understanding anything' makes a lot more sense now.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Top secret pro-level internet user tip: people's usernames are included in their posts.
> I know, I know...shocking but true!
> ...


Dude there are over 230 posts in this thread and I have responded to many at this point.

You are mistaken if you think you are so special that I remember your posts past a response.

Did your mom not give you enough attention that you need it from strangers on the internet? Do you need a hug?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Dude there are over 230 posts in this thread and I have responded to many at this point.
> 
> You are mistaken if you think you are so special that I remember your posts past a response.
> 
> Did your mom not give you enough attention that you need it from strangers on the internet? Do you need a hug?


You don't need to remember them numbnuts, they're all still there! Derrr....
But hey, when ya got nothing...deflect!

Stick to copy-pasting your original drivel over and over and over then. 
Wouldn't want your head to explode if you had to actually consider a point of view that doesn't fit your uninformed narrative.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> You don't need to remember them numbnuts, they're all still there! Derrr....
> But hey, when ya got nothing...deflect!
> 
> Stick to copy-pasting your original drivel over and over and over then.
> Wouldn't want your head to explode if you had to actually consider a point of view that doesn't fit your uninformed narrative.


Yeah you want to make this a hostile and personal discussion that i am not interested in.

You have a good day I will not be responding to your posts anymore.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Yeah you want to make this a hostile and personal discussion that i am not interested in.
> 
> You have a good day I will not be responding to your posts anymore.


Uh huh. Pretty sure you said that yesterday.

No wonder you can't keep track of what anyone else is saying; hell you can't even keep track of what you yourself say.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> I feel you are attempting to make some kind of snarky comment but I just can figure it out.
> 
> Yes I highly encourage you to take a spin on one if anything to learn what the topic is actually about instead of working from assumption.


Obvious but; you say "they ride like a bike" yet "I highly encourage you to take a spin on one if anything to learn what the topic is actually about instead of working from assumption". Well, I've ridden bikes hundreds of times. So can I not assume they ride like a bike, since that is what you claim?

And still waiting for an answer: why don't e-bikers don't go with my idea?


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

mountainbiker24 said:


> You either aren't paying attention or are intentionally ignoring many, many well constructed posts explaining the issues of calling e-bikes bicycles.
> 
> Mountain biker24
> So you're advocating for increased trail conflicts and the likelihood of physical altercations?


No, but then again I don't see much effort by fellow MTB'ers to enforce existing rules. Like abandoned broken bikes and other issues, just the standard PSA's.

Which surprisingly is numerous.

I am advocating that If one rider ddoesn't respect the rules and other riders don't speak up, other riders won't care either. And I am also saying there are individuals that believe if they can break the rules and not get caught, they will.

As for trail conflicts, they happen too.

But the end result is the same. Trashed trails.

I mean in many ways this ebike debate looks alot like the Dakota pipeline protest.

"Save the water and environment" as you turn the area into a literal landfill.

Like I said, there is room for compromise.

But that can't happen as long as you don't deal with the current individuals that don't respect the laws and rules.

And there are a number of tools beyond psa's to do that.

You can hold individual accountable for their actions, I believe one complaint I heard was "lack of manpower" to enforce the rules.

I believe there is a system that allows users and riders to have individuals trespassed and fined for breaking the rules from littering and illegal dumping up.

And unless you utilize those tools the perception of mountain biking won't change. And there is lots of negative out there


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

chazpat said:


> Obvious but; you say "they ride like a bike" yet "I highly encourage you to take a spin on one if anything to learn what the topic is actually about instead of working from assumption". Well, I've ridden bikes hundreds of times. So can I not assume they ride like a bike, since that is what you claim?
> 
> And still waiting for an answer: why don't e-bikers don't go with my idea?


I gave you an answer go ride a e-bike and you will understand why.

Just go and try one, they don't bite.

E-bikes do ride like other bikes but like all bikes they are a bit different and special. Plus it would help clear up any of the misconceptions you have about e-bikes and you might enjoy it.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Hawk258 said:


> No, but then again I don't see much effort by fellow MTB'ers to enforce existing rules. Like abandoned broken bikes and other issues, just the standard PSA's.
> 
> Which surprisingly is numerous.


Since when is it a riders job to enforce rules, and can you point to anything that remotely gives us that power? How does that even work? I see some random rider going over some arbitrary speed limit, I go into pursuit mode, pull the guy over, tell him to hold on while I find a pen and a piece of toilet paper in my pack and right him a citation on the spot? Do I just make up a fine amount and have him send it to me directly? If he doesn't pay, do I go to his house and put cuffs on him at that point?

And broken bikes laying around on the trails are a major issue where you live?

Do we even live on the same planet?


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> Since when is it a riders job to enforce rules, and can you point to anything that remotely gives us that power? How does that even work? I see some random rider going over some arbitrary speed limit, I go into pursuit mode, pull the guy over, tell him to hold on while I find a pen and a piece of toilet paper in my pack and right him a citation on the spot? Do I just make up a fine amount and have him send it to me directly? If he doesn't pay, do I go to his house and put cuffs on him at that point?
> 
> And broken bikes laying around on the trails are a major issue where you live?
> 
> Do we even live on the same planet?


https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sou...aw2pQTg-SeBfsBfNW6t3bISh&ust=1544308749183645

I am sure Oregon isn't the only state that has this.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Hawk258 said:


> No, but then again I don't see much effort by fellow MTB'ers to enforce existing rules. Like abandoned broken bikes and other issues, just the standard PSA's.
> 
> Which surprisingly is numerous.
> 
> ...


Plenty of mountain bikers try to inform users of trail etiquette and legal trail access, and some of that happens on the Internet forums where certain dense individuals call them "haters" and "tribal mudslingers". You guys continuously miss the points people make against calling e-bikes mountain bikes, then say there are no valid points being made.

If you don't want posters talking about proper trail usage in these threads, then at least educate yourselves on the topic in the appropriate threads. There are numerous valid reasons for e-bike awareness posted in multiple places in these forums. Go find them or expect people to attempt to inform you when necessary.


----------



## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> according to any study i've looked at, it can be a helluva cardio workout too.
> 
> This is similar to when people who have no familiarity with mtb dhing talk about how easy it's gotta be. Armchair/keyboard experts are funny. :thumbsup:


qft


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> I gave you an answer go ride a e-bike and you will understand why.
> 
> Just go and try one, they don't bite.
> 
> E-bikes do ride like other bikes but like all bikes they are a bit different and special. Plus it would help clear up any of the misconceptions you have about e-bikes and you might enjoy it.


I'm sure I would enjoy it for the test ride, it's just not what I want to do. I actually like climbing, I have no desire to just ride downhill. I bought a rigid single speed a month ago and I'm loving it. I'm not looking for easier, I like a challenge.

So please tell me, are you wanting a bicycling experience or a motorized experience? Sorry, but if you want a vehicle that goes faster than a bicycle, you're wanting a motorized experience. Personally, I want a 100% bicycle experience.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

KenPsz said:


> Have you ever ridden an electric assist bike? I am assuming no since you would know why e-bikers don't go with your idea if you have ridden one.
> 
> Here is a list I did earlier tell me which of these are false:
> 
> ...


is riding an ebike like having a strong tail wind? Is it like riding a trail that is slightly downhill? If it is like that then I don't need to ride one because I like those serendipitous moments on rides, when the wind is on your tail, to be serendipitous. Just because I can eat candy with every meal doesn't mean I want to eat candy every meal. I prefer my candy a treat, just like tailwinds or slightly downhill trails.

I think the majority of people object to ebikes not because they cause trail damage or are noisy but because they are faster uphill and in areas that one doesn't expect a fast bike. They also object to them for the same reason I stated above, most people like to earn their turns.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

I want to thank everyone for the reputation comments they are a hoot! 
For those that feel I don't know what I am talking about please see the other thread with the article from the Boston Globe.

You will find similar views as mine in that article so I am far from alone in these views.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

chazpat said:


> I'm sure I would enjoy it for the test ride, it's just not what I want to do. I actually like climbing, I have no desire to just ride downhill. I bought a rigid single speed a month ago and I'm loving it. I'm not looking for easier, I like a challenge.


You and I are on very different ends of the mountain bike world given what you have posted here and that explains a lot. I hate climbing it to me it is a necessary evil and anything that can make it easier and funnier is welcome. For me right now that is a oval 26 ring with a 49 tooth cog on a FS fat bike.

I will never understand why people like to climb and willingly ride fully ridge bikes.



> So please tell me, are you wanting a bicycling experience or a motorized experience? Sorry, but if you want a vehicle that goes faster than a bicycle, you're wanting a motorized experience. Personally, I want a 100% bicycle experience.


My view of what the bicycling experience does not fit your narrow definition. 
What you view as enjoyable in mountain biking vs. what I do explains that difference. Since if I had to live with your view mountain biking I would not still be doing this hobby after 23+ years.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

rockcrusher said:


> is riding an ebike like having a strong tail wind? Is it like riding a trail that is slightly downhill? If it is like that then I don't need to ride one because I like those serendipitous moments on rides, when the wind is on your tail, to be serendipitous. Just because I can eat candy with every meal doesn't mean I want to eat candy every meal. I prefer my candy a treat, just like tailwinds or slightly downhill trails.


To be honest I had to lookup that word since I have never seen it before. LOL

Yes riding a e-bike is very much like those two things. 
But unlike you I (and others) prefer our tail winds and slight downhills more often. You still have to pedal a e-bike they are not a motorcycle where you turn the throttle and just ride.



> I think the majority of people object to ebikes not because they cause trail damage or are noisy but because they are faster uphill and in areas that one doesn't expect a fast bike. They also object to them for the same reason I stated above, most people like to earn their turns.


Wow talk about miss information.

Claimed Trail damage: They ride on the same wheels and tires every other mountain bike does. You don't spin your read wheel any more than a normal mountain bike.

Claimed Noise: They are far from loud, my commuter is quieter and a hand drill.

Faster uphill?? Sure vs. based on your baseline riding up hill for a given person. E-bikes are no faster than say a really in fit biker climbing. We are not talking 125cc 2 stroke power and speeds. So this is misinformation

What is this blanket statement "most people like to earn their turns." I can find multiple people that would disagree with that on the trails this weekend. I know many that would welcome not suffering to climb. Most of those people would be like the guy in the video, since this is a hobby and more than likely one of many. The only ones I have meet that like to "earn their turns" are those where biking is there only hobby and passion.

In short many of you need to expand your circle of mountain bike friends and try an e-bike since there are many false statements and elitist comments here. Since i have a feeling that most of that anti e-bike folks are of the type where biking is their main/only hobby. You have to remember there are thousands of riders where that is not the case.


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Plenty of mountain bikers try to inform users of trail etiquette and legal trail access, and some of that happens on the Internet forums where certain dense individuals call them "haters" and "tribal mudslingers". You guys continuously miss the points people make against calling e-bikes mountain bikes, then say there are no valid points being made.
> 
> If you don't want posters talking about proper trail usage in these threads, then at least educate yourselves on the topic in the appropriate threads. There are numerous valid reasons for e-bike awareness posted in multiple places in these forums. Go find them or expect people to attempt to inform you when necessary.


I have not called anyone either of those terms.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

KenPsz said:


> To be honest I had to lookup that word since I have never seen it before. LOL
> 
> Yes riding a e-bike is very much like those two things.
> But unlike you I (and others) prefer our tail winds and slight downhills more often. You still have to pedal a e-bike they are not a motorcycle where you turn the throttle and just ride.
> ...


You might have missed where i was saying that most people don't use those arguments against e-bikes. I am in agreement that they are in no way worse for trails than any bike. However i have been passed by multiple lime e-bikes going up hills in seattle. If cheap ass ride share electric bike can move faster than most people up these hills then they can do the same on a trails. If you look you will see that this is definitely a common complaint and since many trails are 2 way direction and even multi user, this seems to be major concern. 1 way trails, have no complaints. Riding with my kids down a trail and meeting a bike going 20mph up, big concern. Definitely see what Walt has said on this, and he is definitely in the camp of "have tried an ebike before".


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Plenty of mountain bikers try to inform users of trail etiquette and legal trail access, and some of that happens on the Internet forums where certain dense individuals call them "haters" and "tribal mudslingers". You guys continuously miss the points people make against calling e-bikes mountain bikes, then say there are no valid points being made.
> 
> If you don't want posters talking about proper trail usage in these threads, then at least educate yourselves on the topic in the appropriate threads. There are numerous valid reasons for e-bike awareness posted in multiple places in these forums. Go find them or expect people to attempt to inform you when necessary.


I did point out psa's.

I have just stated that there is room for compromise.

My other point was that there were comments about ebikers and trail destruction and being lumped in with them.

I was asked how my proposals would be enforced. 
Specifically:
10 mph motor speed limit
Limited to 5% grade hills or greater
And yearly tags

And I asked how the existing rules are enforced.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

rockcrusher said:


> You might have missed where i was saying that most people don't use those arguments against e-bikes. I am in agreement that they are in no way worse for trails than any bike. However i have been passed by multiple lime e-bikes going up hills in seattle. If cheap ass ride share electric bike can move faster than most people up these hills then they can do the same on a trails. If you look you will see that this is definitely a common complaint and since many trails are 2 way direction and even multi user, this seems to be major concern. 1 way trails, have no complaints. Riding with my kids down a trail and meeting a bike going 20mph up, big concern. Definitely see what Walt has said on this, and he is definitely in the camp of "have tried an ebike before".


I will disagree with you on the road vs. trail. Since for example you cannot take a road bike up a hill in the woods as fast as you can on the road. I know I can do a solid 15mph uphill on my commuter but in the woods that same system would be pushed really hard to hit 10mph.

You are NOT going to see someone going uphill at 20mph on a e-bike with less that 1000 watts. Even at a 1000watts that is going to be pushing the motor and speed control to the point of over heating and damaging them.

Now a 2000 watt or higher system I share your concern since then you have moved to the world of a full on electric motorcycle.

Who is Walt??? I don't know Walt.

Edit:
I found some of Walt's posts but is there a particular topic you suggest? I found the one where he mentioned all trails by Denver being open to e-bikes.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

KenPsz said:


> I want to thank everyone for the reputation comments they are a hoot!
> For those that feel I don't know what I am talking about please see the other thread with the article from the Boston Globe.
> 
> You will find similar views as mine in that article so I am far from alone in these views.


You don't understand the opponent viewpoints, which means you don't understand the issues.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Hawk258 said:


> I have not called anyone either of those terms.


Good.


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

And I am not talking trail ettiquet. I am talking about the rules and laws.

I believe there should be an expectation of riders to hold their peers to the laws and rules.

And there are tools to assist in that.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Hawk258 said:


> And I am not talking trail ettiquet. I am talking about the rules and laws.
> 
> I believe there should be an expectation of riders to hold their peers to the laws and rules.
> 
> And there are tools to assist in that.


 I like you expect riders to hold each other accountable and to teach new riders the etiquette, rules and laws. This notion of the government is needed to do that is very odd to me.

That might be why I also find the e-bike conversation so fear driven since if people are not douchbags there is no issue. That is unless your feelings are hurt because you get passed by some fat out of shape guy from the burbs that sits at a desk all day on his e-bike.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> Not the readers fault if you can't get your point across.
> 
> Plus there are what 4-5 anti e-bike folks on this thread and I am supposed to remember which posts and points an individual poster is making? LOL!!!!
> You are very mistake if you think this is a personal conversation between the two of us.
> ...


....


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

life behind bars said:


> ....


You know I was writing a long response and I realized it is a waste of time. You just dislike e-bikes and nothing will change that point of view.

LOL youtube the land of over the top stunts. 

I'll suggest to you the same thing I have told someone else, go ride a e-bike and learn a thing a two; since you seem to be full to the brim of incorrect information and bias. That is if you are willing to put aside your elite attitude and try something different.


----------



## ULEWZ (Dec 10, 2017)

The E-bike hate on here makes me sick. Get over it. I find in almost all cases it is E-envy that is the culprit here. I can't afford one, so neither can you. If you don't like E-bikes, stay out of the Ebike forum, that includes the hating Moderators (2 of you). Your comments especially are hurtful as you are suppose to be tempered, but are not!! Ebike haters have no life and nothing better to do but hate, period, end of story. So sick of this.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

KenPsz said:


> You know I was writing a long response and I realized it is a waste of time. You just dislike e-bikes and nothing will change that point of view.
> 
> LOL youtube the land of over the top stunts.
> 
> I'll suggest to you the same thing I have told someone else, go ride a e-bike and learn a thing a two; since you seem to be full to the brim of incorrect information and bias. That is if you are willing to put aside your elite attitude and try something different.


Hey, you are just fresh meat on this forum for these guys to eat. Ride your ebike, enjoy it. I ride mine all the time and have had zero issues with anyone on the trail. I don't ride it because I'm lazy, slow or just want to downhill. I ride it because it is something different and exciting. That's all.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Gutch said:


> Hey, you are just fresh meat on this forum for these guys to eat. Ride your ebike, enjoy it. I ride mine all the time and have had zero issues with anyone on the trail. I don't ride it because I'm lazy, slow or just want to downhill. I ride it because it is something different and exciting. That's all.


Fresh meat?? Na I find these discussions fun and a break from political ones.

For me a e-bike is definitely in the future.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Okay.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Everybody cries the uphill closing speeds going 20mph blah blah b.s. Every trail dictates it’s speed limits. I would invite anyone to ride my ebike 20 mph uphill on my local trails (Sagan exception) not gonna happen. Maybe newbies to riding are gonna buy an expensive ebike and ride 20 mph uphill on an ebike? Not gonna happen.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> That is unless your feelings are hurt because you get passed by some fat out of shape guy from the burbs that sits at a desk all day on his e-bike.


You sit at your desk on an ebike?


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

chazpat said:


> You sit at your desk on an ebike?


I wish I could and strangely the guys I work with would not find it odd.

Good catch since I read that in my head very differently!


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

ULEWZ said:


> The E-bike hate on here makes me sick. Get over it. I find in almost all cases it is E-envy that is the culprit here. I can't afford one, so neither can you. If you don't like E-bikes, stay out of the Ebike forum, that includes the hating Moderators (2 of you). Your comments especially are hurtful as you are suppose to be tempered, but are not!! Ebike haters have no life and nothing better to do but hate, period, end of story. So sick of this.


 You are welcome to browse elsewhere.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> You and I are on very different ends of the mountain bike world given what you have posted here and that explains a lot. I hate climbing it to me it is a necessary evil and anything that can make it easier and funnier is welcome. For me right now that is a oval 26 ring with a 49 tooth cog on a FS fat bike.
> 
> I will never understand why people like to climb and willingly ride fully ridge bikes.
> 
> ...


 Don't like to climb? Hmmm. After you go up, then you can go down. And it's rigid? Yes. Viva la difference. I took my Karate Monkey( fully rigid steel 29er) on a 68 mile mixed terrain ride, it was an awesome 11 hr pedal fest. Be the wheel. Don't be a cog.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

leeboh said:


> Don't like to climb? Hmmm. After you go up, then you can go down. And it's rigid? Yes. Viva la difference. I took my Karate Monkey( fully rigid steel 29er) on a 68 mile mixed terrain ride, it was an awesome 11 hr pedal fest. Be the wheel. Don't be a cog.


Sock account? I don't remember commenting back to you yet you seem to be continuing a conversation, hummmm.

Yes as I posted climbing is a necessary evil that sucks and I don't enjoy. I am like many a casual rider, which I bet make up the majority of riders.

11 hrs on a bike? God lord what a waste of time to do other things in life.

It is pretty much confirmed the anti e-bike folks have biking as their main hobby and ignore that others do not. God forbid that people do not have their single focus belief system on how biking should be done.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ok, you like ebiking rather than riding a bicycle, we get it. Just be honest about what you do, that's all we're really asking. You aren't going to convince any of us that bicycles now have motors so don't bother trying. Just go ebiking and be happy with that.


----------



## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> I will disagree, since I see:
> * fear of new technology
> * fear of losing climbing superiority
> not solid points.
> ...


I bought an electric full-suspension mountain bike for commuting because my SI joint can't take shock and riding my mountain bike to work is pretty slow because I'm over 60.

E-bikes are legal at South Mountain Park, in Phoenix, according to the park manager with whom I have personally spoken. So now I'm riding to the trail head 3 miles away and enjoying a short mountain bike ride about once a week. You'll really enjoy riding the e-bike if you're a slow climber like me - the ratio of time spent climbing to descending really improves if you double your climbing speed from 4 mph to 8 mph which is pretty easy for an e-bike.

I use one hundred percent assist except on short steep grades where I use 190 percent assist. The assist takes the place of the granny gear I used to use. Generating a lot of torque to climb inflames my SI joint on the mountain bike, but I can go for a ride on the e-bike, including the ride to the trail and back without suffering for the rest of the day and the next.

In Boise, when mountain bikes first became available we all just started riding and no one questioned us. Now there's a huge trail network, primarily following the cattle and jeep trails that we used. Motorcycles were banned on the Boise Front primarily because of air quaility issues and erosion and fire concerns, not because other users complained - there were always more mountain bikers than hikers back in the day.

In my experience, there is a large percentage of hikers who flock to popular areas and avoid isolation - other trail users bring them in. Not what I prefer personally; I've spent many days backpacking in isolated areas without seeing another soul - but that will never happen on an e-bike because range and elevation gain are restricted by the battery's energy storage, which is the energy equivalent of a cheeseburger.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

My battery has 720w with the piggyback battery on. I can do 50 miles with a little over 6k’ of climbing on lowest ECO mode the whole time. I’m 195#of solid beer btw.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

chazpat said:


> Ok, you like ebiking rather than riding a bicycle, we get it. Just be honest about what you do, that's all we're really asking. You aren't going to convince any of us that bicycles now have motors so don't bother trying. Just go ebiking and be happy with that.


I'm not the one the derailed and hijacked the thread with conflict and hatred that would be people on your side of the fence.

I have wonder how much many of you anti e-bike folks must hate the CO decision to allow e-bikes on all trails.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

20 mph closing speed no problem on this ebike...


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

hikerdave said:


> I've spent many days backpacking in isolated areas without seeing another soul - but that will never happen on an e-bike because range and elevation gain are restricted by the battery's energy storage, which is the energy equivalent of a cheeseburger.


Never?



Gutch said:


> My battery has 720w with the piggyback battery on. I can do 50 miles with a little over 6k' of climbing on lowest ECO mode the whole time. I'm 195#of solid beer btw.


and I doubt performance and range will ever improve


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> View attachment 1228074
> 20 mph closing speed no problem on this ebike...


Trail dictates the speed so that should be appropriate anywhere a plain old fashion mtb is...


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> I'm not the one the derailed and hijacked the thread with conflict and hatred that would be people on your side of the fence.
> 
> I have wonder how much many of you anti e-bike folks must hate the CO decision to allow e-bikes on all trails.


 You should read closer. Not allowed every where in CO.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> Sock account? I don't remember commenting back to you yet you seem to be continuing a conversation, hummmm.
> 
> Yes as I posted climbing is a necessary evil that sucks and I don't enjoy. I am like many a casual rider, which I bet make up the majority of riders.
> 
> ...


 Bikes =Life. Unless you live on a salt pan, there are hills. It's part of the biking experience. We just call each other bicyclists. Cheers. And FYI, 9 bikes are just barely enough. I'm just getting by. Plus frames, wheel sets, tires, and spare parts. Sometimes when I'm not pedaling on a rainy Saturday, I will just build a bike in my garage from parts. You should try bikepacking. Pedal all day for days on end, earn your downs, earn your beers. Be the wheel.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Trail dictates the speed so that should be appropriate anywhere a plain old fashion mtb is...


No, I obviously don't ride the ktm on bike trails.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> No, I obviously don't ride the ktm on bike trails.


Legalities aside, why not? Couldn't go any faster than you could on a mtb.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> View attachment 1228074
> 20 mph closing speed no problem on this ebike...


Want.


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

KenPsz said:


> That is unless your feelings are hurt because you get passed by some fat out of shape guy from the burbs that sits at a desk all day on his e-bike.


My feelings _are_ hurt if I'm passed on a climb by someone you've described. Mountainbiking has a natural hierarchy, if you're fit, you get to the top quicker, and have a nice clean run down the other side. If I'm grinding up a thirty minute climb dreaming about six minute downhill on the other side and I'm passed by someone on an e-bike who's going twice my speed going up, that I'm only going to catch and be held up by on the descent, then I find that frustrating.

And that's a genuine reality, the ones I've come across cannot descend (by virtue of the rider skill rather than the motor) like more experienced riders, yet the motor allows them to climb or ride the flats like an expert.

Another example is at the top of said climb, there are a dozen riders patiently getting their breath, and at the same time allowing a 20-30 second window for each rider so that they can have an uninterrupted descent. Half a dozen e-bikes roll past, no rest required, drop straight in oblivious to the queue that's formed.

I think e-bikes are brilliant as car replacements, for commuting, and E-Motos will certainly be more palatable than the days of two strokes. But if it has a motor, then it's not allowed on bike trails, unless it's the trail digger or maintenance crew.

We're lucky I guess here. We've got great trails which are single use, and high end e-bikes are still expensive that we don't see them. We don't have the land access issues which seems prevalent across the US either.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Legalities aside, why not? Couldn't go any faster than you could on a mtb.


If you can muscle my 1290 up gnarly singletrack here you're more man than I.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Want.


No kidding, that thing would be super fun!


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Want.


 "But honey, think of all the gas money we'll save."


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

KenPsz said:


> You know I was writing a long response and I realized it is a waste of time. You just dislike e-bikes and nothing will change that point of view.
> 
> LOL youtube the land of over the top stunts.
> 
> I'll suggest to you the same thing I have told someone else, go ride a e-bike and learn a thing a two; since you seem to be full to the brim of incorrect information and bias. That is if you are willing to put aside your elite attitude and try something different.


You ride a commuter ebike, pretty sure you said you've never ridden an electric mountain bike either. So maybe you should before you make all these claims


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

sfgiantsfan said:


> You ride a commuter ebike, pretty sure you said you've never ridden an electric mountain bike either. So maybe you should before you make all these claims


snappy response, nice try at an insult but a fail.

See I know more about the subject from my commuter than the handful of you anti's that have not tried either.

Bikes a bike and an electric motor is an electric motor, amps are amps, volts are volts and watts are watts. Not a hard subject if you are willing to learn, which many of you seem to not care to.

Put the two together and you if you experience in both you can get a good guess at what being in the dirt with one will be like. Shocker it's not a motorcycle like experience. I have ridden motorcycles, mopes and mini-bikes a e-bike is a different animal from all of those.

but hey don't take my word for it go ride one, what are you afraid of?


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Mudguard said:


> My feelings _are_ hurt if I'm passed on a climb by someone you've described. Mountainbiking has a natural hierarchy, if you're fit, you get to the top quicker, and have a nice clean run down the other side. If I'm grinding up a thirty minute climb dreaming about six minute downhill on the other side and I'm passed by someone on an e-bike who's going twice my speed going up, that I'm only going to catch and be held up by on the descent, then I find that frustrating.
> 
> And that's a genuine reality, the ones I've come across cannot descend (by virtue of the rider skill rather than the motor) like more experienced riders, yet the motor allows them to climb or ride the flats like an expert.
> 
> ...


LOL!!!!

Hierarchy only exists if you allow it to and have an ego that allows it to be a factor.

I personally don't care what you pass me on, I just care the I get to the top.

But then I am a casual rider and there does seem to be part of the problem, "serious" riders vs. the casual.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mudguard said:


> My feelings _are_ hurt if I'm passed on a climb by someone you've described. Mountainbiking has a natural hierarchy, if you're fit, you get to the top quicker, and have a nice clean run down the other side. If I'm grinding up a thirty minute climb dreaming about six minute downhill on the other side and I'm passed by someone on an e-bike who's going twice my speed going up, that I'm only going to catch and be held up by on the descent, then I find that frustrating.
> 
> And that's a genuine reality, the ones I've come across cannot descend (by virtue of the rider skill rather than the motor) like more experienced riders, yet the motor allows them to climb or ride the flats like an expert.
> 
> Another example is at the top of said climb, there are a dozen riders patiently getting their breath, and at the same time allowing a 20-30 second window for each rider so that they can have an uninterrupted descent. Half a dozen e-bikes roll past, no rest required, drop straight in oblivious to the queue that's formed.


FWIW, your hypothetical scenario is only gonna happen on very crowded trails (I've never come across those sort of crowds in all my years riding, though I guess it could happen in a place with very limited route options that is constantly mobbed with riders of different skill levels) and it's gonna be the same thing whether e-bikes are in the mix or not.

Personally, I could give a damn if I get passed by someone, particularly if they're on an e-bike, as it's not the same game to begin with.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> I'm not the one the derailed and hijacked the thread with conflict and hatred that would be people on your side of the fence.
> 
> I have wonder how much many of you anti e-bike folks must hate the CO decision to allow e-bikes on all trails.


But you are the one that came on a mountain bike site and started arguing about bikes with motors. And there really isn't that much hatred in this thread, most of it is due to your attitude. For some reason a lot of the ebikers like to make themselves out the victim.

And, hey, great, I don't live in Colorado. Let them be the test bed to see if there are issues or not.

Like most people here: ebike to replace car::thumbsup:


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

chazpat said:


> But you are the one that came on a mountain bike site and started arguing about bikes with motors. And there really isn't that much hatred in this thread, most of it is due to your attitude. For some reason a lot of the ebikers like to make themselves out the victim.
> 
> And, hey, great, I don't live in Colorado. Let them be the test bed to see if there are issues or not.
> 
> Like most people here: ebike to replace car::thumbsup:


This is a mountain bike forum site with a E-BIKE SECTION. LOL!!!!

Maybe your issue is with the owners of the site and the fact they allow this forum to exist since it seems to bother you so much.

My attitude? LOL!!! What because I fight back and will not be bullied by the mob of anti folks? You anti folks sure are a delicate bunch.

Yup I already e-bike to replace driving, but a bit of dirt under the tires would be nice too.


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

KenPsz said:


> LOL!!!!
> Hierarchy only exists if you allow it to and have an ego that allows it to be a factor.


The hierarchy exists due to courtesy and safety. If someone is riding a trail considerably faster than you, it is reasonable to let them pass. Same if I get to the top of a trail on my trail bike and see half a dozen riders in full faces, DH bikes and armor, I will ask if I can go or if they are waiting before dropping into the trail in front of people who are likely waiting to create space.



slapheadmofo said:


> FWIW, your hypothetical scenario is only gonna happen on very crowded trails.
> 
> Personally, I could give a damn if I get passed by someone, particularly if they're on an e-bike, as it's not the same game to begin with.


This is at my favourite trail centre, there are two or three major routes to take riders to the top and about a dozen descent options ranging in difficulty. As I said, I have no qualms about being passed going up (or down for that matter) by someone faster than me. The issue I have is that it tends not to be reciprocated on the other side. IE in this case, E-Bike goes past on the climb, on rolls straight past waiting riders at the top, without realising why they are waiting. E-Bikes allow newer or less able riders to climb like a pro but without necessarily being able to descend like a pro. 
NB the video shows Brig descending like a champ, but in my experience, these aren't the people I've come across so far on E-Bikes.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Mudguard said:


> The hierarchy exists due to courtesy and safety. If someone is riding a trail considerably faster than you, it is reasonable to let them pass. Same if I get to the top of a trail on my trail bike and see half a dozen riders in full faces, DH bikes and armor, I will ask if I can go or if they are waiting before dropping into the trail in front of people who are likely waiting to create space.


Most people follow those things but that was not the impression I got by this statement you made: "Mountain biking has a natural hierarchy, if you're fit, you get to the top quicker, and have a nice clean run down the other side."

That sounds a bit more like your feelings get hurt if someone uses technology to climb instead of just muscle. Am I not understanding your quote correctly?

Skills fail before the ego. So just let it go and enjoy your ride, it's a hobby.



> This is at my favourite trail centre, there are two or three major routes to take riders to the top and about a dozen descent options ranging in difficulty. As I said, I have no qualms about being passed going up (or down for that matter) by someone faster than me. The issue I have is that it tends not to be reciprocated on the other side. IE in this case, E-Bike goes past on the climb, on rolls straight past waiting riders at the top, without realising why they are waiting. E-Bikes allow newer or less able riders to climb like a pro but without necessarily being able to descend like a pro.


OK this is an issue why? This reads like you are OK with being passed if you can give paybacks. That e-bikes are an issue because you don't get to have that payback. Just let it go, it is a hobby.



> NB the video shows Brig descending like a champ, but in my experience, these aren't the people I've come across so far on E-Bikes.


Guess what the majority of people on e-bikes will not descend like a pro. The bikes are more capable than the rides just like if that same rider was using a 140mm travel AM bike. People have a tendency to self regulate regardless of the capabilities of the bike.


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

KenPsz said:


> LOL!!!!
> That sounds a bit more like your feelings get hurt if someone uses technology to climb instead of just muscle. Am I not understanding your quote correctly?


I think you're misunderstanding me. If I get passed on the climb by a rider on an e-bike and never see them again, I don't care. Good on them, out riding (sort of). I care if they pass me on the climb to a descent, then dawdle on the way down of said descent and hold me up. Of course I can't do much about it, I'm not a dick, I'm not going to buzz their tire and scream Strava, I'll just wait until they realise I'm there and hope to be let pass.



KenPsz said:


> Skills fail before the ego. So just let it go and enjoy your ride, it's a hobby.


It's easy to say let it go, I work all week, ride maybe once or twice a week, get up early to hit the trails before they are crowded and live for the downs. So it can be frustrating.



KenPsz said:


> OK this is an issue why? This reads like you are OK with being passed if you can give paybacks. That e-bikes are an issue because you don't get to have that payback. Just let it go, it is a hobby.


I'm not sure what you mean by payback.

There are other examples of non E-Bike etiquette too, I was almost of the top of a climb, saving my legs for the two minute downhill, when I got caught by an older woman (maybe late 50's) on a very fast looking hardtail, she asked quite rudely to be let past just as we got to the flat where I was about to stand up and go (I'm late thirties, on a 170mm bike). Of course all that happened was she rode down roughly at the same speed she'd gone up. So it's not limited to e-bike riders, it's just general trail awareness.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Mudguard said:


> I think you're misunderstanding me. If I get passed on the climb by a rider on an e-bike and never see them again, I don't care. Good on them, out riding (sort of). I care if they pass me on the climb to a descent, then dawdle on the way down of said descent and hold me up. Of course I can't do much about it, I'm not a dick, I'm not going to buzz their tire and scream Strava, I'll just wait until they realise I'm there and hope to be let pass.


Thank you for the clarification.



> It's easy to say let it go, I work all week, ride maybe once or twice a week, get up early to hit the trails before they are crowded and live for the downs. So it can be frustrating.


I do the same, yet have a different outlook. I do wonder if that has something to do with age. I am pushing 50 so what irritated me in the past not longer does since I have gotten slower myself.



> I'm not sure what you mean by payback.


They pass you, you pass them. You pay them back for passing you by passing them. This might be a very American way of thinking, so sorry about that.



> There are other examples of non E-Bike etiquette too, I was almost of the top of a climb, saving my legs for the two minute downhill, when I got caught by an older woman (maybe late 50's) on a very fast looking hardtail, she asked quite rudely to be let past just as we got to the flat where I was about to stand up and go (I'm late thirties, on a 170mm bike). Of course all that happened was she rode down roughly at the same speed she'd gone up. So it's not limited to e-bike riders, it's just general trail awareness.


Yes I have had the same thing happen. What you have there is one of the reason this discussion can become very frustration where people seem to want to ignore the non e-bike stories that are the same as e-bike ones. Since those same non e-bike stories lessen the impact of their claims since many of the issues are mountain bike wide.

I want to thank you for having a good discussion on this topic.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> This is a mountain bike forum site with a E-BIKE SECTION. LOL!!!!
> 
> Maybe your issue is with the owners of the site and the fact they allow this forum to exist since it seems to bother you so much.
> 
> ...


Psst: this is a commercial site, they make money off of page views. There is also a muscle car thread. But they don't argue that they are horse drawn carriages and should be allowed wherever horses are allowed.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mudguard said:


> The hierarchy exists due to courtesy and safety. If someone is riding a trail considerably faster than you, it is reasonable to let them pass. Same if I get to the top of a trail on my trail bike and see half a dozen riders in full faces, DH bikes and armor, I will ask if I can go or if they are waiting before dropping into the trail in front of people who are likely waiting to create space.
> 
> This is at my favourite trail centre, there are two or three major routes to take riders to the top and about a dozen descent options ranging in difficulty. As I said, I have no qualms about being passed going up (or down for that matter) by someone faster than me. The issue I have is that it tends not to be reciprocated on the other side. IE in this case, E-Bike goes past on the climb, on rolls straight past waiting riders at the top, without realising why they are waiting. E-Bikes allow newer or less able riders to climb like a pro but without necessarily being able to descend like a pro.
> NB the video shows Brig descending like a champ, but in my experience, these aren't the people I've come across so far on E-Bikes.


Good post. Etiquette is important. It's also one of the toughest things to pick up generically, something I've seen endlessly at skateparks. If you don't know, you don't know. E-bikes definitely make it easier for people that don't know to get out there.


----------



## Hawk258 (Nov 24, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> Good post. Etiquette is important. It's also one of the toughest things to pick up generically, something I've seen endlessly at skateparks. If you don't know, you don't know. E-bikes definitely make it easier for people that don't know to get out there.


You are right. But in the same breathe it let's some of the folks that might have some ettiquet and ethics up faster too.

I think like any group the "bad" sticks out more than the good... or as a wise man once told me,

"all the atta boy's in the world don't mean a thing when the **** hits the fan"


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

WoodlandHills said:


> What if you don't give a crap about fitness? What's wrong with just using a bike, any bike, as a tool to get out on the trail and to get away from the city? I rode MTBs because I love two wheeled vehicles not because I love to exercise. Ebikes were a godsend once I hit 62 or 63, I could triple the distance I spent two wheeling and do it every day of the week.


Sure, if that's your thing. We're just sharing opinions.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> I have wonder how much many of you anti e-bike folks must hate the CO decision to allow e-bikes on all trails.


Um, what?

So, Colorado has:

6,821 miles of non motorized mtb trails, @ 250 miles of which are ebike legal. That's about 3.7% of the mtb trails in the state.

There are 24,906 miles of moto legal dirt roads and trails though, which ofc are ebike legal. And many of the bike paths/bike lanes.

https://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/02/colorado-39000-miles-trails-together-online/


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Since when is it a riders job to enforce rules, and can you point to anything that remotely gives us that power? How does that even work? I see some random rider going over some arbitrary speed limit, I go into pursuit mode, pull the guy over, tell him to hold on while I find a pen and a piece of toilet paper in my pack and right him a citation on the spot? Do I just make up a fine amount and have him send it to me directly? If he doesn't pay, do I go to his house and put cuffs on him at that point?
> 
> And broken bikes laying around on the trails are a major issue where you live?
> 
> Do we even live on the same planet?


 If MTBers don't enforce rules, how does the community deal with reckless riders, trail poachers or general assholes? If this community does not use peer pressure to enforce standards and simply stands by and let's its members run wild in any way they want, if this is your normal behavior, no wonder there's all the hysteria about ebikes and ebikers. You expect them to act like you do and you expect to allow them to do so. How sad.......


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Since when is it a riders job to enforce rules, and can you point to anything that remotely gives us that power? How does that even work? I see some random rider going over some arbitrary speed limit, I go into pursuit mode, pull the guy over, tell him to hold on while I find a pen and a piece of toilet paper in my pack and right him a citation on the spot? Do I just make up a fine amount and have him send it to me directly? If he doesn't pay, do I go to his house and put cuffs on him at that point?
> 
> And broken bikes laying around on the trails are a major issue where you live?
> 
> Do we even live on the same planet?





Mudguard said:


> My feelings _are_ hurt if I'm passed on a climb by someone you've described. Mountainbiking has a natural hierarchy, if you're fit, you get to the top quicker, and have a nice clean run down the other side. If I'm grinding up a thirty minute climb dreaming about six minute downhill on the other side and I'm passed by someone on an e-bike who's going twice my speed going up, that I'm only going to catch and be held up by on the descent, then I find that frustrating.
> 
> And that's a genuine reality, the ones I've come across cannot descend (by virtue of the rider skill rather than the motor) like more experienced riders, yet the motor allows them to climb or ride the flats like an expert.
> 
> ...


Why do I have to stop riding my ebike because you are massively insecure? This is the response of an adolescent, not an adult........ Somehow it is all about you and your "natural hierarchy" and how the world impacts you and you peers, as if anyone outside of your self-anointed elite cares or even notices you. This is just pathetic.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> If MTBers don't enforce rules, how does the community deal with reckless riders, trail poachers or general assholes? If this community does not use peer pressure to enforce standards and simply stands by and let's its members run wild in any way they want, if this is your normal behavior, no wonder there's all the hysteria about ebikes and ebikers. You expect them to act like you do and you expect to allow them to do so. How sad.......


 Do you yell at dog walkers who don't pick up the mess? Chastise kids who throw trash on the trail? All the riders I meet riding are respectful and nice, some people have good parents.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Since when is it a riders job to enforce rules, and can you point to anything that remotely gives us that power? How does that even work? I see some random rider going over some arbitrary speed limit, I go into pursuit mode, pull the guy over, tell him to hold on while I find a pen and a piece of toilet paper in my pack and right him a citation on the spot? Do I just make up a fine amount and have him send it to me directly? If he doesn't pay, do I go to his house and put cuffs on him at that point?
> 
> And broken bikes laying around on the trails are a major issue where you live?
> 
> Do we even live on the same planet?





leeboh said:


> Do you yell at dog walkers who don't pick up the mess? Chastise kids who throw trash on the trail? All the riders I meet riding are respectful and nice, some people have good parents.


 Yes I do all of those things, I do it politely but clearly. All and every rider you have ever met has been respectful and nice, but you have already admitted that if they were not, you would do nothing. If they were riding in a manner to put others on the trail at risk, you would do nothing.

Again, if this is the expected response to bad behavior in the MTB community then no wonder you are worried about ebikers since there is no peer pressure to curb dangerous riders.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> Do you yell at dog walkers who don't pick up the mess? Chastise kids who throw trash on the trail? All the riders I meet riding are respectful and nice, some people have good parents.


Well, then you should have no problem self-policing e-bikers who break the rules.
Why don't you lead by example and start calling out some of the ones who post here?
Maybe turn them in to their local authorities.

We'll wait...


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> If MTBers don't enforce rules, how does the community deal with reckless riders, trail poachers or general assholes? If this community does not use peer pressure to enforce standards and simply stands by and let's its members run wild in any way they want, if this is your normal behavior, no wonder there's all the hysteria about ebikes and ebikers. You expect them to act like you do and you expect to allow them to do so. How sad.......


I'm not sure what your expectations are of the people who ride mountain bikes, "the community". They're just like the people who run, hike and walk their dogs, in fact probably the same people. And except for the minority, they won't know and won't do anything about people breaking the rules out on the trail. It falls on the land managers to do anything, which is unlikely unless it gets out of hand, and even then, probably not much, which you've probably seen if your trails are swimming with little bags of dog poop like mine often are. The only times my trail org has been contacted to do something about illegal trail builds was when the land managers wanted to make a public point about demoing it and wanted our backing. The backlash comes in public meetings, and behind closed doors, not out on the trail.

Most enforcement is self enforcement, many people will do what signs tell them to do, and a certain percentage won't. There won't be anyone out policing ebikes, it doesn't matter if they are allowed, or not allowed. The only difference is there will be less if they aren't allowed, since most people will read the signs and not ride them on those trails. The land managers choice is if they want to deal with a few emtbs, or lots of emtbs.

In the dim past, when mtbs were trying to gain respect and access, we had an official volunteer mtb patrol, who were out to show a good face for mountain bikes on the trail. It's something to consider for emtb riders, sometimes there are hoops that need jumping through.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Yup, as Harry said, there's been a lot of self-policing amount mountain bikers because we have a vested interest in keeping land managers happy with us as a user group. Not our job to keep e-bikers from screwing themselves. Take some ownership; we did. Can't understand why everything keeps coming back to 'we want you guys to do everything for us'.


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> Why do I have to stop riding my ebike because you are massively insecure? This is the response of an adolescent, not an adult........ Somehow it is all about you and your "natural hierarchy" and how the world impacts you and you peers, as if anyone outside of your self-anointed elite cares or even notices you. This is just pathetic.


I think you are misreading my post. I have no problem with people passing me climbing, I'm no whippet, I'm riding a 170mm trail bike so I'm riding up so I can ride down quickly. I would say 50% of regular riders will be quicker going up than me. However by the same token, when we go down, if I'm being held up, I'd hope to be let past. How this has evolved on busy trails, is riders waiting to give each other space on the descent.
It is far more risky (and rude) to pass going downhill and I'm not going to cut someone up because they're slower or less experienced. Everyone has to start somewhere, and part of that learning process is learning etiquette. So if you see a group of riders at the top of a trail, maybe check if they're having a breather or if they are giving each other space before dropping in. Again, this isn't an acoustic vs e-bike thing.


----------



## MikeyMK (Jul 27, 2014)

I'm not in a community, i don't have anything whatsoever to do with other cyclists. My riding doesn't affect them and they don't affect me. Of course, there's always some childish, selfish fool who will want to point and ***** about what i'm doing and how it affects their ego. My reasons are nothing to do with you.

Criticism of technological advancement doesn't age well. Pedal regeneration allows me to get home at the end of the day with full battery, if i'm on an exercise run. Maybe Sturmey Archer users in 1902 were cheating? Seems to me that gears were better use of energy. Generating electric on decents to reduce effort on ascents is better use of energy. But we all know how all motorists are yobs because of a few Mustang drivers.

Also, here's a pic of me doing the annual tip run the other day. Being car-free i don't do cars. But i'm not going to stop my chosen activities because of a few butthurt egos who wanna look better than the next guy.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Harryman said:


> In the dim past, when mtbs were trying to gain respect and access, we had an official volunteer mtb patrol, who were out to show a good face for mountain bikes on the trail. It's something to consider for emtb riders, sometimes there are hoops that need jumping through.


This would be a GREAT IDEA but (always the but). How do you put a good face on emtb on trails with other users if people are hostile about them being there in the first place and keep them off? Seems a bit of a catch 22. Since if you can't get access no one ever sees them and sees that they are a non issue.

I have read on other forums, on this topic people, about bikers doing physical attacks over someone riding a emtb where the ebiker was just minding their own business and riding. Just the simple fact it was a emtbr caused the attack, blocking of trails and crazy stuff.

Were people have done studies like in CO the ebikes we ignored if not pointed out to those on the trail or bike path.

So it is a bit of a weird situation of a catch 22 of no access and if you get access no one notices you.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Were people have done studies like in CO the ebikes we ignored if not pointed out to those on the trail or bike path.
> 
> So it is a bit of a weird situation of a catch 22 of no access and if you get access no one notices you.


What?


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

The Jeffco initial test study. They had a couple of people ride emtbs on the trails, and then asked people if they had noticed any emtbs. Which, since they hadn't existed there before, most people didn't know what they were talking about. I'm sure no one notices any emtbs where you are either.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Harryman said:


> The Jeffco initial test study. They had a couple of people ride emtbs on the trails, and then asked people if they had noticed any emtbs. Which, since they hadn't existed there before, most people didn't know what they were talking about. I'm sure no one notices any emtbs where you are either.


I notice them but I check out most bikes to see what people have.

So the question become if no one notices them is there really a problem?


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

How'd this thread go from:

- Who ebikes are for?

To:

- Try to persuade us why we should have any feelings but disdain for ebikers? (optionally include known personal mental barriers).

And:

- Questionable logic and rationale being thrown back and forth unsuccessfully, due to prevailing emotional states.


---

It's a struggle to even come up with anything conclusive that is universally found agreeable when all the opposing sides' arguments are put together.

- An emtb is not a mtn bike. It's a concern what it is legally defined as.

- Some emtb riders have switched over from riding regular mtn bikes. Such riders are a concern, with how they believe it's so close to a normal mtn bike, that they can treat it as such.

- ebikes come in multiple power levels. It's a concern that people can't tell by looking, if it's a more friendly low powered one, vs something they're afraid of.

- It is not guaranteed that people will notice what kind of bike people are on, as they are passing/moving, but will notice that it's a biker. This is a concern for all bikers sharing the trail, wanting to maintain a tolerable perception from other trail users.

- There are rules, and people look down upon rule breakers. An increasing # of rule breakers, on bikes, is a concern.

- The loss of trails is a concern. People will be glad if more trails are created (legally), with rules that suit changing demands (emtb friendly).

*shrug* what else? It's hard to filter through the low quality responses, such as the all the ones related to life behind bars's posts. I believe his actions deserve this call out...

Trying to find a solution to be gained from all this arguing, rather than fueling the fight.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ninjichor said:


> Trying to find a solution to be gained from all this arguing, rather than fueling the fight.


A good start would be for everyone to operate within the bounds of reality.

A motor is a motor.

An e-bike is an e-bike.

E-bike access is not going to the Supreme Court

ADA access is a red herring, and has basically zero to do e-bike access in general

People with very limited knowledge on a subject would do better listening more than just constantly trying to lecture.

Don't cry about 'hate' anytime someone disagrees with you. It only makes you look petulant.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Every time I hear the ebike arguments, I think of Neil Diamond, “America!”


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> A good start would be for everyone to operate within the bounds of reality.
> 
> A motor is a motor.
> 
> ...


So much truth here.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Every time I hear the ebike arguments, I think of Neil Diamond, "America!"


Sorry, that must be horrible for you.


----------

