# Rear suspension types for a clyde - advantages to any specific type?



## sgtrobo (Aug 19, 2014)

what I'm talking about is on a full suspension bike, there are all kind of rear suspensions. Examples include:

single pivot:









FSR:









Giant's Maestro:









are there any clyde-specific advantages/disadvantages to these suspension types? i know I've read about various "things" working like a charm for the average 160-lber, but those things don't work for the 260-lber.

are certain types of suspension better at reducing pedal bob, reducing brake jack, etc?


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## dansMTB (Aug 12, 2004)

I havent had an issue with being a clyde and suspension design, however I have had issues with some coil sprung suspension. This is due to the physical spring being calibrated for a certain weight. I've had forks that were undersprung even with the xfirm spring, and rear shocks where the stroke wasnt long enough to account for the thicker (longer) heavier springs. Most of the rear shock Issues I ran into were in the shorter travel coil shocks around in the early 2000's. Seems Fox wised up to this when they came out with the dhx line and they have plenty of space and threads for heavier springs.

I have not had any issue with air springs, and since they have alot of tunability in terms of pressure, can get them set up correct 100% of the time. This is my go-to for everything but DH type bikes.


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## HBSURFDAD (May 29, 2014)

At 295 my FSR is great. I wish the "C" in the "CTD" was firmer, but other than that it is great for all types of riding.


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## Br80 (Sep 10, 2013)

HBSURFDAD said:


> At 295 my FSR is great. I wish the "C" in the "CTD" was firmer, but other than that it is great for all types of riding.


@ 295 you might be somebody that I can keep up with! Let's ride! (also in HB)


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

What the linkage is doesn't matter much to a clyde specifically (although a clyde will put more stress on the shock seals on that heckler since there is no upper swing link)

Clydes need stiff, sturdy frames, an appropriate spring, and firm shock valving.


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## sgtrobo (Aug 19, 2014)

thougth I had my mind all made up on the Giant Trance but just found out a LBS close to me sells Santa Cruz, giving that Heckler a real consideration now. 

I like the idea of the Maestro suspension and read nothing but good things, but I worry that the extra "stuff" will make for more required maintenance. The simplicity of single pivot is alluring

clydes with a Santa Cruz Heckler (single pivot) or a Trance (Maestro/DW), please feel free to provide your feedback regarding the rear suspension. As always, thanks a ton.


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

DW link is the Porsche of all rear linkages. I am 220 and I can climb with my Pivot Mach 429 carbon with wide open suspension with little noticeable pedal bob even out of the saddle.


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## sgtrobo (Aug 19, 2014)

SDMTB'er said:


> DW link is the Porsche of all rear linkages. I am 220 and I can climb with my Pivot Mach 429 carbon with wide open suspension with little noticeable pedal bob even out of the saddle.


Wow. That is a helluva endorsement


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## masonmoa (Jul 11, 2011)

I have to disagree with what a few guys have said about suspension design for clydes. Although since the OP is 260 I think most designs will work fine for him. Let's just say that I am heavier than you and Speshy's FSR did not work for me at all. Way too much pedal bob and pedal strikes, even after sending my shock into Specialized for a custom tune. I also tried a Gary Fisher FS bike and it too didn't work at all. I personally have had good luck with Niner's CVA suspension, so much so that I found it didn't need any pro-pedal/pedaling platform. I am a believer in 4-bar suspension setups and haven't found the extra parts/pivots to require any more maintenance. I currently have 2 Knolly bikes and while they need a pedaling platform, the bikes are mega stiff and are pretty low maintenance despite all the linkage parts. What a clyde really wants in a suspension design with the right leverage ratio and for me, single pivot bikes and VPP setups don't seem to have what works for me. I've also found that having a shock with a piggy back helps tremendously and all my FS bikes have them. I'd actually like to try out the Maestro bikes from Giant, but they just don't make them big enought for me. Anyway, just my 2 cents.


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## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

hmm i love my single pivot suspension but others still work fine

my current bikes

Commencal Meta 55- Single pivot 

Giant NRS1 Composite- four bar

Iron Horse team Sunday - DW link(yeah i needed the right spring for that one)

Raleigh ram 3.0(ROFL) - Single pivot (now given to my son) similar to the Kona

of the above no one type is better than the other, its all in the type of bike to riding style and terrain.


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## sgtrobo (Aug 19, 2014)

well today I tried out my first full squishies, a Diamondback Sortie 1.0 and a GT Sensor Elite (2012). 

pedal bob was immense. I also felt like, when I sat on the Diamondback, I sunk so far that I was going to fall off the back of the bike. That said, on the DB Sortie, I could ride down stairs and for the heck of it I rode down a fairly moderate set of stairs and off curbs and such without even standing up 

however, I got the pedal bob bigtime whether I was standing up or not. I'm not entirely sure the shock was tuned for me though to be honest.


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

If you are not sure the shocks were set up for you, then they probably were not. Just having the air pressure set firm enough would make a massive difference. Sag should be no more than 20-30% of the travel/


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## sgtrobo (Aug 19, 2014)

TooTallUK said:


> If you are not sure the shocks were set up for you, then they probably were not. Just having the air pressure set firm enough would make a massive difference. Sag should be no more than 20-30% of the travel/


well, I dunno how much sag is supposed to happen when I sit down on the bike but I legitimately felt like I was going to fall off the back of the seat almost. Granted, I've never ridden a full suspension bike before, so it might've been my imagination. I know the guy pumped up the rear suspension shock to 150(?) before I took it out for a ride.
on Monday my first stop is going to be at a LBS that I know will set up the bike for me. They pride themselves on fitting the bike to the customer. HEck, I took a Salsa Fargo for a 30-minute test ride, but the dude spent a good 30-40 minutes setting and resetting the seat, changed the spacers on the handlebars, had me sit in a trainer and pedal a bunch and then made minute adjustments to...everything. So I'll find out if that's the type of "squish" I was supposed to feel


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## sgtrobo (Aug 19, 2014)

oh for chrissakes...he didn't tell me there was 'climb/trail/descend' on the Sortie 1.0

he said there was "lockout" and "normal" and had me switch it all the way to "normal"

no wonder it felt so frickin' squishy....it was in descend mode rather than trail! GEEBUS MAN....how the hell do you not tell someone that?!?!!?


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## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

Max pressure for the Rock Shox ARIO Rear Shock is 250psi(assuming your Diamond back still has that shock) so you can aim higher than 150 psi


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## sgtrobo (Aug 19, 2014)

nah, it had a Fox CTD, except I didn't realize it was a CTD and the tech who was working with me to get it set up didn't mention it. He had it on 'descend' mode the whole time as I was be-bopping around the parking lot.

no wonder it felt so gooshy.


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## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

well thats even better 300 psi limit!


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

theMISSIONARY said:


> well thats even better 300 psi limit!


Just visiting this again - DW link is the suspension system used for Pivot, Turner, and Ibis and is a leading winner on the UCI World Downhill circuit.

What makes it different is how the travel of the rear triangle occurs. In short, it travels back first and then up, rather than just up and down. As a result it uses chain tension to assist in process - so the steeper you are climbing, the stiffer the suspension acts. These two things (the path of the rear triangle and the stiffness of the action) contribute to the feeling of reducing the risk of having your rear wheel slip out on you on steep climbs, even if you have to get off the saddle. Many who ride this setup will also say it feels like an extra inch of travel is added to the bike without adding pedal bob. The other effect that is felt is that the bike has a wonderful feeling of absorbing square edge rocks (rock gardens) while still maintaining maximum power to the crankset. On downhills, the system works very well.

For heavier people, the issue becomes having enough PSI to keep the bottom bracket and crank from hitting rocks, but not so high as to reduce the effect of having the suspension in the first place. Additional damping doesn't achieve what DW link does - it just slows down or speeds up the action of the shock. There is a sweet spot for rebound damping for a given set of conditions and rider weight and riding style. So trying to make up shock performance for a clyde with rebound wouldn't really accomplish the need and further reduces the intended performance of the shock.

So - long story short, if you are a clyde, seek a bike out that uses the DW link setup. Giant comes close with Maestro, but it isn't identical. You shouldn't have to take a bike out of Climb mode as in the case of Fox CTD to have the bike work properly. Make sure the sag is set properly at the shop when you demo - you also need to make sure the sag is set for the FRONT shock too, as well as rebound. Small rebound adjustments make a big difference so don't let the shop overlook that. If they know what they are doing it is a quick job.


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## Ray Dockrey (Feb 23, 2006)

I got a Giant Trance 3 27.5. Got it used but in excellent shape. I weigh 217. Got to take it out yesterday for the first time and was very impressed. No pedal bob at all. The bike worked really well. I have been riding a Giant Talon 3 27.5. The nicest part is no lower back pain or sore butt this morning. Going back out today.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

SDMTB'er said:


> What makes it different is how the travel of the rear triangle occurs. In short, it travels back first and then up, rather than just up and down. As a result it uses chain tension to assist in process - so the steeper you are climbing, the stiffer the suspension acts. These two things (the path of the rear triangle and the stiffness of the action) contribute to the feeling of reducing the risk of having your rear wheel slip out on you on steep climbs, even if you have to get off the saddle. Many who ride this setup will also say it feels like an extra inch of travel is added to the bike without adding pedal bob. The other effect that is felt is that the bike has a wonderful feeling of absorbing square edge rocks (rock gardens) while still maintaining maximum power to the crankset. On downhills, the system works very well.


Nearly all suspensions use chain tension as an element to control the suspension movement.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

SDMTB'er said:


> Just visiting this again - DW link is the suspension system used for Pivot, Turner, and Ibis and is a leading winner on the UCI World Downhill circuit.


[Derail warning] Ridden by whom? For one thing, the only one of those brands with a WC DH team is Pivot. Weagle's Split Pivot has seen the podium under Steve Smith, but I can't think of one DW link bike.

OP, I agree with scottzg. The linkage won't really matter too much. I remember a thread a few years ago with a superclyde who kept breaking the seat tube of his (previous generation) Niner WFO because of the way the link transferred stress to the seat tube, but IIRC, he was also 300+ lbs and was riding seated through potholes.

My current frame is a Banshee Prime. I think it's an ideal clyde frame, as it is stiff and built for punishment. I've ridden most of the other bikes in its class, and there aren't many that come close to it re: stiffness.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

sgtrobo said:


> well today I tried out my first full squishies, a Diamondback Sortie 1.0 and a GT Sensor Elite (2012).
> 
> pedal bob was immense. I also felt like, when I sat on the Diamondback, I sunk so far that I was going to fall off the back of the bike. That said, on the DB Sortie, I could ride down stairs and for the heck of it I rode down a fairly moderate set of stairs and off curbs and such without even standing up
> 
> however, I got the pedal bob bigtime whether I was standing up or not. I'm not entirely sure the shock was tuned for me though to be honest.


Not enough air pressure, although the sortie has a low enough leverage ratio that it is easy to fix. My concern with the sortie (as a former mission owner) is the coped toptube/downtube puts a lot of stress at the end of the weld on the top tube. Looks cool, poor design.

The sortie is a rising rate, low rearward single pivot and behaves very differently from the heckler, which is a high forward falling rate single pivot. Sturdy/stiff and a shock that plays well with your weight is much more important, though.


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## sgtrobo (Aug 19, 2014)

scottzg said:


> The sortie is a rising rate, low rearward single pivot and behaves very differently from the heckler, which is a high forward falling rate single pivot.


*blank stare*

god bless google, i'll be right back....



scottzg said:


> Sturdy/stiff and a shock that plays well with your weight is much more important, though.


makes sense. now to figure out how to determine that. I srtll don't know what a rear suspension is really supposed to feel like.


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## sgtrobo (Aug 19, 2014)

well, test rode a Specialized Camber and a Stumpjumper FSR Comp 29er.

I now know what a rear suspension is supposed to feel like. The Stumpie was incredible.

It's frustrating though because neither of the shops I've checked really took much time to set the suspension up for me to test ride. 

The Stumpie had Autosag (note to self - autosag really WORKS) and a Revelation front fork and they really felt like they were worth the price of admission. 

As it stands, in my VERY VERY LIMITED and UNEDUCATED mindset, I've ridden 4 bikes, and I rank them as such

1. Stumpie
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2. Diamondback Sortie
3. Specialized Camber
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4. GT Sensor Elite


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## pgm83 (Oct 13, 2014)

6' & ~190 lbs before kitting up. Honestly, this is more of an off season hobby since tri dominates most of the year and I live right next to some decent trails.

I went with a Diamondback Sortie 3 after riding a couple of other bikes. I honestly think the rear suspension pedals better than most. No experience with the Sortie 2 or 1. I rode the entry level Trek Fuel EX 5 (for sizing) and nearly barfed. Hopped on the EX 9 (too small) and it was a world of difference pedaling (on mostly smooth). The shock type and setup can make a lot of difference. My friend's Stumpjumper rode very nice, but it was beyond my budget. Wasn't impressed with the spec of anything under 3k.

The Niner RIP 9 and Tallboy seemed to be the type of bikes I was looking for, but I just couldn't afford them either. The 2015 Diamondback Sortie 3 ended up being a full XT kit, KS dropper and serviceable wheels. The weight is embarrassing, but I'm very, very happy with the price/performance ratio. It's a lot of bike for 3k. If you are already on the heavier end, who cares about riding a 34lb bike that feels wicked stable going down rough (for the Midwest) stuff.


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## Ricky_J (Sep 13, 2013)

I've been doing a lot of end-of-season bargain hunting AND I'm 6'1" 205 lb. I used to be a racer/expert but dropped away from MTB to ride dirtbikes for a few years (also known as enduro machines). ALSO... I lost 30 lbs. and got into better shape so I've really had to take a hard look at my biking needs. I've been on a hard tail recently but rode FS years back. I've noticed a few things in my quest tp pick out a new whip. First (and to the point) All suspension is adjustable. Air is easiest for those of us losing weight and/or rebuilding skills. Swapping springs is a hassle BUT Air Pressure varies and needs to be watched. We BIG and Strong types have to learn suspension adjustment. We ain't gettin' an "off the shelf" solution. If you want your suspension "active" you are going to have to tinker and test. If you read the set-up manual of a bike you have your eye on and it makes sense... you're good. If you scartch your head and have lots of questions... move to the next brand. If you can't readily find detailed specs and set-up info on the bike you like... again, run away. Yes, a good shop will get you into the ball park (if you don't know how youself). Still, it will be a best guess. I particularly don't mind complicated designs. 2013 Konas come to mind. I've read reviews (of many bikes) that took time to fiddle and adjust and would always see reveiwers come away liking the bike. Short term reviews of a bike can be polar opposites. *Light Bulb* We'll always crave a little more, better, newer, because it's fun but unless we race at an elite level we'll be supremely happy with a bike we can adjust for "ourselves." I rather like any of the bikes pictured. They all CAN be adjusted for us monsters. Trick is... which one does each of find (persoanlly) easiest to monkey with?


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## JHH (Jul 4, 2013)

I ride a SC TBc and love it. I have some friends that have Giant Anthems and watching the Maestro suspension in action it is very "quiet" in motion. I don't see bob when they power down on climbs, sprints and technical bits. It's impressive as the same person on the same trail on a VPP bike I see much more suspension action.


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## eobie (Aug 26, 2014)

masonmoa said:


> I have to disagree with what a few guys have said about suspension design for clydes. Although since the OP is 260 I think most designs will work fine for him. Let's just say that I am heavier than you and Speshy's FSR did not work for me at all. Way too much pedal bob and pedal strikes, even after sending my shock into Specialized for a custom tune. I also tried a Gary Fisher FS bike and it too didn't work at all. I personally have had good luck with Niner's CVA suspension, so much so that I found it didn't need any pro-pedal/pedaling platform. I am a believer in 4-bar suspension setups and haven't found the extra parts/pivots to require any more maintenance. I currently have 2 Knolly bikes and while they need a pedaling platform, the bikes are mega stiff and are pretty low maintenance despite all the linkage parts. What a clyde really wants in a suspension design with the right leverage ratio and for me, single pivot bikes and VPP setups don't seem to have what works for me. I've also found that having a shock with a piggy back helps tremendously and all my FS bikes have them. I'd actually like to try out the Maestro bikes from Giant, but they just don't make them big enought for me. Anyway, just my 2 cents.


This wasn't the bike. It's was the shock. I'm 250 and know what you mean. I used to pedal strike all the time. I ditched the shitty Fox shock and upgraded to the Rockshox Monarch. Huge freaking difference..... Like night and day difference.


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## [email protected]@y (Dec 12, 2014)

FWIW, I have a Lapierre with E:I and absolutely love the automagic/electronic actuation of the low-speed compression adjustments. I found there's simply no mechanical way to prevent pedal bob at my weight (290 without gear) as well as the algorithms and sensors can do it - and the OST+ virtual pivot suspension design is great even without the E:I.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

SDMTB'er said:


> Just visiting this again - DW link is the suspension system used for Pivot, Turner, and Ibis and is a leading winner on the UCI World Downhill circuit.
> .


Since when?

FSR/VPP lately


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Alias530 said:


> Since when?


Since Sam Hill rode an Iron Horse Sunday. It's been a while. Pivot has the only team on dw_link bikes that I can think of. Turner doesn't have a WC team and Ibis doesn't make a DH bike.


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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

Maybe he's talking about Steve Smith who rides for Devinci , which use split pivot designed by Dave Weagle.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Maybe. (See post 21.) And I think Polc still rides an Evil, although I've lost track.


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## sgtrobo (Aug 19, 2014)

eobie said:


> This wasn't the bike. It's was the shock. I'm 250 and know what you mean. I used to pedal strike all the time. I ditched the shitty Fox shock and upgraded to the Rockshox Monarch. Huge freaking difference..... Like night and day difference.


What was the exact bike and shock? I have a Spec Stumpy Comp and didn't know you could use A Mmonarch in place of the Fox CTD


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## Octane (Mar 16, 2004)

The falling-rate of a single pivot bike (i.e. Heckler) compliments the higher psi needed to support a clyde on an air shock.

As the air shock compresses, the spring rate "ramps up", becoming exponentially higher. Most riders, this isn't an issue. But for Clydes, we run near the maximum recommended shock psi - and then can't use all the travel.

If you run a coil shock on a single pivot, you can tune it first with a new coil spring, like a 600lbs/in or 650lbs/in. Then add preload to set the sag level to prevent pedal strikes. 

Of course, increased springrates (psi) require you to aggressively tune the damping rates - you'll typically have 1 or 2 more rebound damping clicks than "recommended" from the factory tune.

ALSO - be sure to remove the volume spacer if you end up with a FOX air shock. This helps with tuning for clydes a lot!


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## matadorCE (Jun 26, 2013)

Octane said:


> The falling-rate of a single pivot bike (i.e. Heckler) compliments the higher psi needed to support a clyde on an air shock.
> 
> As the air shock compresses, the spring rate "ramps up", becoming exponentially higher. Most riders, this isn't an issue. But for Clydes, we run near the maximum recommended shock psi - and then can't use all the travel.
> 
> ...


I guess it depends on what type of single pivot since this hasn't been my experience that. The falling rate plus high leverage ratio on my bike caused the shock to blow through travel quickly and have poor mid-travel support. I sent my Fox CTD shock off to get custom tuned and had to keep the biggest spacer I could in the shock even after the tune. The bike felt much better, but still doesn't have mid travel support that I'd like. This is on a Cannondale Prophet but I've also ridden a new Heckler and found that bike to be a heck of a lot better.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

I've always believed the use of a volume reducer is more related to the frame the shock is on than the weight of the rider. I just installed a Crane Creek Inline with the large volume reducer right off the start since that's what I had to do with the crap Fox CTD that was on there before and the spring rate was perfect once I got sag set with just a bump in high speed compression and rebound and I was done. 

From when I was doing research on the CC Inline, it seems like just about everyone uses the large volume reducer on the Trances and one guy was 155lbs with the large volume reducer as his final setup. I know it has a relatively high leverage ratio but it's pretty linear through stroke as well and I'm guessing that's the reason for needing the volume reducer, not the rider weight. Once sag is set, how is the overall spring curve going to change from a 150lb guy to a 250lb guy?

Also, when I first installed the Inline, my air pump broke at around 190psi which gave me a good 40% sag. I rode it anyway that day until I got a new pump the next day. I was even more impressed with the Maestro suspension because even being severely under sprung and slightly under damped, it had very, very little pedal bob as in I had to really pay attention to notice anything. I like that it doesn't totally rely on the shock for a good pedaling platform and stays active when climbing. With the shock finally setup right and plenty plush, pedal bob is virtually non-existent even without the climb switch activated.

I believe this is the (air) shock to have on the Maestro bikes for some of us heavier guys. It's already a great design but this shock really compliments it with more than enough damping for my 240lbs, I'm not even close to being maxed out in any of the 4 adjustments. Small bumps that I used to feel are no longer noticeable, sometimes I can hear the tire hit them but I don't feel it. It's so plush, for the first 2 days I was constantly checking if I was getting close to bottom and in most cases I wasn't even half way through travel. The Fox on the other hand was much more harsh yet it blew through travel badly. 

The only unknown is the maximum air pressure before destruction. By leaving the pump attached and going through travel it easily maxed out the 300psi gauge at mid travel with a 240lb base pressure and the pressure in normal use would have been considerably higher without the additional volume of the pump itself. I would be willing to bet some of these shocks see north of 400psi with a 300lb rider on a high leverage ratio bike at full squish. I've only seen maximum static pressure numbers listed but it would be nice to know the absolute maximum a particular shock can take before damage is done.


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