# VPP vs DW vs Maestro vs ... (x post am)



## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

I'm looking for a 6" ish freeride/AM frame that pedals well. It must also work well with my Boxxer Ride (133-178mm).

So far the Nomad, IH 7Point (the lightened '07 model), and Canfield Balance are in the running. The IH 6Point and Duncon Tosa are in there if they can take a dc fork...

The Canfield is my top choice right now.

Other recommendations are welcome, I am leaning to a dw-type linkage for the pedaling and brake-jack advantage.

Oh, I'm 195 lb, ride front range CO trails and Keystone, this will be a do-it-all bike.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

I say you go for the IH 7point


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## i_suck (Jun 22, 2006)

no to mastro. i have one in my house that iam demo-ing for the day. to squishy. its a bike for a lazy ride that just wants to sit there. You should check out the fat possum. Its like a beefed up heckler.


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## Roaming Oregon (Feb 24, 2004)

i_suck said:


> no to mastro. i have one in my house that iam demo-ing for the day. to squishy. its a bike for a lazy ride that just wants to sit there. You should check out the fat possum. Its like a beefed up heckler.


I wouldn't get mastro either. On the other hand if you actually take the time to set up your suspension then the Maestro bikes work incredible. Most of the dual pivot bikes can be set-up to give a very favorible ride. Smooth, limited pedal feedback, and reduced brakejack.

On the other hand you could always go with afat possum or heckler and get a single pivot bike that requires a platform shock to pedal ok, but still has pedal kickback, and certainly has brake jack...

to each his own 
I guess.

/and shiver don't chime in with your "FSR" or "looks flexy"


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## JCL (Oct 17, 2006)

You guys are talking a load of crap. 

A maestro design is a DW. Giant will own the DW patent soon. All DW's suffer from brake jack to some degree. VPP's have a more pronounced S shape axle path to DW's but feature similar leverage ratios. They also suffer from brake jack to the same degree. The best design for eliminating brake jack is a single pivot with a floating caliper system but I doubt your keen on that idea. 

Your best bet as it has been for the past ten years in a horst linked four-bar.

Boring as it sounds an Enduro (the 07 is pretty light) would be my choice.

Or if you want to pose get the Nomad


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## skatetokil (Apr 27, 2004)

I love it when you talk dirty.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

JCL said:


> You guys are talking a load of crap.
> 
> A maestro design is a DW. Giant will own the DW patent soon. All DW's suffer from brake jack to some degree. VPP's have a more pronounced S shape axle path to DW's but feature similar leverage ratios. They also suffer from brake jack to the same degree. The best design for eliminating brake jack is a single pivot with a floating caliper system but I doubt your keen on that idea.
> 
> ...


Doesnt IH and DW have that patent? Seems like all those dw-type and 4 bar bikes are similar enough that nobody should have a patent... Otherwise small bike companies end up spending $$$ and studying patent law making sure their design is just different enough not to get sued.

I know all bikes will have some brake jack, but single pivots are worse. Brake Therapy does make a kit for my current bike, but I'd rather have a good suspension design than a platform shock and a floating brake.

I will admit I have never rode a fsr type bike. I should be able to test ride an Enduro, Delerium (maybe I can get a student discount :skep: ), Nomad and Intense 6.6. I briefly rode a 7Point but getting my hands on a Canfield might be tough... The Canfield has pretty nice geometry with my Boxxer Ride, and fits what I am looking for better than anything else I've seen so far except maybe the Delerium. The Delerium I saw was really nice, just not exactly affordable.

I really don't want a Specialized... unless its really cheap


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Giant Reign. That fits exactly what you're looking for. Look into it.


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## Roaming Oregon (Feb 24, 2004)

JCL said:


> You guys are talking a load of crap.
> 
> A maestro design is a DW. Giant will own the DW patent soon. All DW's suffer from brake jack to some degree. VPP's have a more pronounced S shape axle path to DW's but feature similar leverage ratios. They also suffer from brake jack to the same degree. The best design for eliminating brake jack is a single pivot with a floating caliper system but I doubt your keen on that idea.
> 
> ...


Whatever. Maestro is not DW. They are both dual link designs- but have different pivot locations... so they actually have slightly different riding characteristics. The Maestro design has a very linear curve with a slight blip at the end of the travel. The DW link has a more progressive curve. The VPP is an "S" curve. As for "brakejack" I'm guessing you've never ridden one of the Maestro bikes. It is the closest thing to riding a bike with a floating caliper as I've ever ridden. Try setting on up then find a rock garden to ride through- you may as well do it twice- once with your brake on, and once with your brake off.

Horst link is ok- but it's old and dated. To absorb the small stuff you need to run it soft, and then it has pedal induced feedback and bottoms on larger hits. To have it pedal good and not bottom you need to run the shock much stiffer- and then it doesn't absorb the small stuff... and as for brake jack... just try running that FSR shock with a really soft spring and ride a rock garden at speed with your brake on...


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## Ojai Bicyclist (Nov 4, 2005)

JCL said:


> You guys are talking a load of crap.
> 
> A maestro design is a DW. Giant will own the DW patent soon. All DW's suffer from brake jack to some degree. VPP's have a more pronounced S shape axle path to DW's but feature similar leverage ratios. They also suffer from brake jack to the same degree. The best design for eliminating brake jack is a single pivot with a floating caliper system but I doubt your keen on that idea.
> 
> ...


A VPP bike will have a way higher leverage ratio (usually) than a DW Link bike. Maestro is similar to DW-link. That doesn't mean it's the same or that Giant is going to own it. They're laid out a bit differently and that's the important part in patenting.


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## Ojai Bicyclist (Nov 4, 2005)

BTW an Enduro wouldn't work with your Ride unless you got an SX Trail.

The Balance is pretty damn cool. 

The Nomad will work very well with the Ride, Rennie uses that setup sometimes. It's a well-balanced combo.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

DHidiot said:


> Giant Reign. That fits exactly what you're looking for. Look into it.


Only if I can keep my warranty running my Boxxer


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## JCL (Oct 17, 2006)

Roaming Oregon said:


> Whatever. Maestro is not DW. They are both dual link designs- but have different pivot locations... so they actually have slightly different riding characteristics. The Maestro design has a very linear curve with a slight blip at the end of the travel. The DW link has a more progressive curve. The VPP is an "S" curve. As for "brakejack" I'm guessing you've never ridden one of the Maestro bikes. It is the closest thing to riding a bike with a floating caliper as I've ever ridden. Try setting on up then find a rock garden to ride through- you may as well do it twice- once with your brake on, and once with your brake off.
> 
> Horst link is ok- but it's old and dated. To absorb the small stuff you need to run it soft, and then it has pedal induced feedback and bottoms on larger hits. To have it pedal good and not bottom you need to run the shock much stiffer- and then it doesn't absorb the small stuff... and as for brake jack... just try running that FSR shock with a really soft spring and ride a rock garden at speed with your brake on...


As you say DW and Maestro designs are very similar.... The only difference is the upper link pivot locations relative to the shock mount. This is what influences whether it has a linear or progressive leverage. Not the axle path which is obviously controlled by the lower and upper link pivot locations relative to the rear triangle.

To say a Horst linked 4-bar is dated is ridiculous. Along with Lawill's parallel link it's the closest thing to a simplified multi-link design that's been produced for a bike. Multi-links are the only designs used in high performance motorsport applications for the last 30 years. The main pivot location relative to the rear axle and the chain position (the chain ring use for drive) is what influences pedal induced feedback or a stiffening under power. A DW with a lower link that is out of alignment with the drive torque will stiffen dramatically under load. This doesn't happen on a horst linked 4-bar. I think set-up the problems you've had with Horst-links are shock related. They simply don't need stable platforms. From 06 onwards Specialized have custom valving on shocks.

Just because it's older doesn't mean it's wrong...Don't believe the hype.

P.S I've been riding a Faith for over a year.


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

JCL said:


> You guys are talking a load of crap.


let's see.



JCL said:


> A maestro design is a DW.


no.



JCL said:


> Giant will own the DW patent soon.


no



JCL said:


> All DW's suffer from brake jack to some degree.


no. dw bikes have been designed with a small amount of brake squat. do you even know what brake jack is?



JCL said:


> VPP's have a more pronounced S shape axle path to DW's


no, dw's don't have an S shaped axle path, period.



JCL said:


> but feature similar leverage ratios.


no. see V10 and Sunday, and VPFree and 7POINT for clarification.



JCL said:


> They also suffer from brake jack to the same degree.


take it up with SC, but there's a reason none of their bikes come with floating brakes.



JCL said:


> The best design for eliminating brake jack is a single pivot with a floating caliper system but I doubt your keen on that idea.


do you even know what brake jack is?



JCL said:


> Your best bet as it has been for the past ten years in a horst linked four-bar.


no

and now back to your regularly scheduled program.


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## Roaming Oregon (Feb 24, 2004)

dante said:


> let's see.
> 
> no.
> 
> ...


Classic post. You summed it all up real well. BTW- Do you have a grudge against Maestro?


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

Roaming Oregon said:


> Classic post. You summed it all up real well. BTW- Do you have a grudge against Maestro?


just trying to correct some misinformation. not a grudge against maestro per se, my avatar is just a bit of friendly banter directed at a competitor (I work for Iron Horse as you can see by my title).


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

dante said:


> just trying to correct some misinformation. not a grudge against maestro per se, my avatar is just a bit of friendly banter directed at a competitor (I work for Iron Horse as you can see by my title).


Any info on '07 Pricing for the 6. and 7.?

What shock will they come with?

Can the 6. take a dc fork and still be warrantied?


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## Roaming Oregon (Feb 24, 2004)

dante said:


> just trying to correct some misinformation. not a grudge against maestro per se, my avatar is just a bit of friendly banter directed at a competitor (I work for Iron Horse as you can see by my title).


Figured as much. I was doing the same in a less direct route... I think it's kind of funny. Take a guess where I work...


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

Roaming Oregon said:


> Figured as much. I was doing the same in a less direct route... I think it's kind of funny. Take a guess where I work...


shock therapy?


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## Roaming Oregon (Feb 24, 2004)

dante said:


> shock therapy?


yeah you got it:thumbsup:


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Roaming Oregon said:


> yeah you got it:thumbsup:


really????


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

davec113 said:


> Any info on '07 Pricing for the 6. and 7.?
> 
> What shock will they come with?
> 
> Can the 6. take a dc fork and still be warrantied?


Not sure on frame kit pricing, but 6POINT frame will come with a DHX Air, and 7POINT will come with a DHX 5.0.

Unfortunately the 6POINT can not take a DC fork (and still be warrantiable...).


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> really????


no.


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## ebxtreme (Jan 6, 2004)

*It's a fine line......*

Based on your "do it all" requirements, you've already mentioned the most likely options.....I'll give the ones I'd consider. Also, if this is truly going to be a "do it all" bike, I'd consider having two wheelsets that you can swap out. One set for big xc rides and one for FR / bike park antics. FWIW, I have a buddy that did some epic xc rides on his Giant Faith this summer (when his xc bike was down)....so it's possible if you've got the legs, lungs and will to make it happen

It's interesting to see how a lot of guys went bigger 8-10" of travel for the park are now scaling back their travel to something in the 6-7" range.....maybe it's the fact that people have figured out how to build trannies so the extra squish isn't really necessary unless you're full on pinnin' it.

Iron Horse - 7 point (or the 6 point when it comes out). Will do everything well and DW is arguably one of the smartest / coolest guys in the industry. I'd get the 7 point if you're looking for the burlier rig or the 6 point if you think you'll do more big rides (XC / AM).

Giant - Reign X (6.7" of maestro travel - really a DW ripoff). This bike looks HAWT and Giant is the king of value. I've got 3 buddies that ride the Faith's and they love them. I just got an older Reign (6" version) and I'm very surprised at how nice it feels right out of the gate. This will be my AM bike with a '07 36 on it and I can't wait to get out for some break-in rides

Coiler / Coilair- Ok, the faux bar might not be as sexy, but no one can dispute the durability and overall design of the Kona's. I've owned 2 and they've taken WAY more abuse than I'd ever expected them to....

Spec Enduro/SXT - You gotta consider these......great build and design. Tough to bag on Specialized, but a lot of folks seem to love to.

Turner - 6 pack.....this bike is on closeout right now and the '07's are a bit lighter (now that the Highline is out). Might want to jump on this now if you want a deal on an '06. Great bike.....solid build...bushings with zerk fittings at the pivots. Hard to go wrong with a Turner.....plus, they have exemplary CS.

SC Nomad - This bike is so cool for it's versatility and how nice it feels pedaling. I have a buddy that raced 4x on his this year and he did a few days in the bike park with it when he didn't have his V10 and his is built "light-ish" with a DHX air and a 130mm fork. Granted, he's uber smooth, but he's hit HUGE stuff on this bike. A nomad built with coil front and rear and some heavier wheels easily can handle FR stuff. Don't forget that the new Bullit will be out in spring too.

Delirium - From what I've read, this frame is still on the burly side. I think this would be an excellent shore bike, but I don't know if I could pedal it all day. Plus, I'd have to sell a kidney to afford it. 

Transition - I'd be remiss if I didn't give a shout out for my boys up north. The preston can easily handle huge hucks and still be pedaled all day depending on the build. It's redesigned this year to accept a longer shock which should make it even plusher. Of course, the Bottle Rocket is super cool, but the short seattube and burly frame might make it less of a "do all" rig.

Yeti ASX - I've got a buddy that has this frame and every time I ride it, I'm so frickin' amazed at how plush it is. Yes, it's a single pivot, but this frame can easily be built to a mid 30's do all rig and then can be burled up with heavier wheels for the big stuff.

Watch list:
Both Devinci and Cove have bikes coming out in the spring that fall in the 7" travel range. I think the Cove will be a scaled down shocker, but don't know a lot about it.

Cheers,
EBX


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## Ojai Bicyclist (Nov 4, 2005)

JCL said:


> Multi-links are the only designs used in high performance motorsport applications for the last 30 years.


Nope. Motorcycles use a single pivot sometimes coupled with a link to drive the shock. But they're single pivots.


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## JCL (Oct 17, 2006)

te:
Originally Posted by JCL
You guys are talking a load of crap.

let's see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL
A maestro design is a DW.

no.

_Please clarify the huge difference._

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL
Giant will own the DW patent soon.

no

_Not what I've heard._

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL
All DW's suffer from brake jack to some degree.

no. dw bikes have been designed with a small amount of brake squat. do you even know what brake jack is?

_Apologies I did mean brake squat not jack. It was late ! And yes I do know what jack as opposed to squat is._

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL
VPP's have a more pronounced S shape axle path to DW's

no, dw's don't have an S shaped axle path, period.

_Yes I know but I was using the difference to make a point rather than quoting someone and using cheap one word answers._

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL
but feature similar leverage ratios.

no. see V10 and Sunday, and VPFree and 7POINT for clarification.

_Yes I know from experience how high lbs springs VP's need so I was talkng crap there._

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL
They also suffer from brake jack to the same degree.

take it up with SC, but there's a reason none of their bikes come with floating brakes.

_Sorry I meant squat and in my experience they do suffer more than a horst linked 4-bar._

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL
The best design for eliminating brake jack is a single pivot with a floating caliper system but I doubt your keen on that idea.

do you even know what brake jack is?

_Yes._

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL
Your best bet as it has been for the past ten years in a horst linked four-bar.

no

_Really ? Please tell us what designs are better and why rather than a cheap "no"_


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## JCL (Oct 17, 2006)

Ojai Bicyclist said:


> Nope. Motorcycles use a single pivot sometimes coupled with a link to drive the shock. But they're single pivots.


Yep I was kinda getting at linkage systems. F1 cars for example.

It's a good point you bring up however. If a shock is designed specifically for a single pivot (Honda) will it outperform linkage designs ?


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

JCL said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by JCL
> A maestro design is a DW.
> 
> ...


You know that minor differences (such as pivot placement, axle path, etc) produce HUGE differences in how a bike rides, right?



JCL said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by JCL
> Giant will own the DW patent soon.
> 
> ...


care to elaborate? "I've heard" as an argument is hilarious.



JCL said:


> Originally Posted by JCL
> All DW's suffer from brake jack to some degree.
> 
> no. dw bikes have been designed with a small amount of brake squat. do you even know what brake jack is?
> ...


when you use the term "suffer", you're implying that squat (originally jack) is bad. Fabien's Stab was/is set up with a floating brake that's main cause is to induce brake squat.



JCL said:


> Originally Posted by JCL
> They also suffer from brake jack to the same degree.
> 
> take it up with SC, but there's a reason none of their bikes come with floating brakes.
> ...


see above.



JCL said:


> Originally Posted by JCL
> Your best bet as it has been for the past ten years in a horst linked four-bar.
> 
> no
> ...


there are a lot of designs out there that perform better than a horst 4-bar, but that's just my (very subjective) view.


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## mudpuppy (Feb 7, 2004)

Yay....a pissing match....

Anyway...the bikes on my list are the Reign X1 and the Trainstion Covert. The Bottlerocket is a good bike...but the seat tube is not long enough if you are tall....the covert looks like a PIMP bike...hopefully be test riding both in the near future.










It will really come down to the ride. I would just get out and ride as many bikes on your list as possible and get the one that you like best.


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## member_x (Aug 30, 2004)

dante said:


> when you use the term "suffer", you're implying that squat (originally jack) is bad. Fabien's Stab was/is set up with a floating brake that's main cause is to induce brake squat.
> 
> This is very interesting to me, why would Fabien add brakesquat to his frame? what are the benefits of brake squat? quicker deceleration maybe?


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## Debaser (Jan 12, 2004)

davec113 said:


> I'm looking for a 6" ish freeride/AM frame that pedals well. It must also work well with my Boxxer Ride (133-178mm).
> 
> So far the Nomad, IH 7Point (the lightened '07 model), and Canfield Balance are in the running. The IH 6Point and Duncon Tosa are in there if they can take a dc fork...
> 
> ...


Send a note over to Dave at Redsone: www.redstonecyclery.com - Turner and Intense dealer, has a 6.6 built and a cloesout RFX on the wall.


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## JCL (Oct 17, 2006)

You know that minor differences (such as pivot placement, axle path, etc) produce HUGE differences in how a bike rides, right? 

Well yeah but a DW V's a Maestro would be a lot more similar then a DW V's a Horst linked 4 bar if they all had identical geometry. No ? 


care to elaborate? "I've heard" as an argument is hilarious. 

Well I don't want to get anyone into trouble but someone who works for another dual rotating link bike (LOL) manufacturer mentioned to me that Giant is looking to have some kind of exclusive rights to that design as SC does with VP. 


when you use the term "suffer", you're implying that squat (originally jack) is bad. Fabien's Stab was/is set up with a floating brake that's main cause is to induce brake squat.

OK suffer is the wrong term. I understand that it can make the bike more stable with less pitch under braking. It can't always be an advantage to be sitting into your travel under braking unless you've got 200mm plus.

see above.

there are a lot of designs out there that perform better than a horst 4-bar, but that's just my (very subjective) view.

Well that hasn't done much to convince me... The worry I have with the Iron Horse design is the short length of the links. Surely such a tight arc must have and effect on small bump sensitivity ?


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## ferday (Jan 15, 2004)

> Well I don't want to get anyone into trouble but someone who works for another dual rotating link bike (LOL) manufacturer mentioned to me that Giant is looking to have some kind of exclusive rights to that design as SC does with VP.


i don't see that happening, too many companies with the floating link design, they'll be fighting pretty hard for that one.

and for the love of goodness, a maestro is NOT a DW style linkage. DW did NOT invent floating parallel linkages.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

davec113 said:


> Doesnt IH and DW have that patent? Seems like all those dw-type and 4 bar bikes are similar enough that nobody should have a patent... Otherwise small bike companies end up spending $$$ and studying patent law making sure their design is just different enough not to get sued.
> 
> I know all bikes will have some brake jack, but single pivots are worse. Brake Therapy does make a kit for my current bike, but I'd rather have a good suspension design than a platform shock and a floating brake.
> 
> ...


The '06 7Point5 was specc'd with a Ride, so you know it will work (but like you said they are heavy). If the '07 7Point frame is lighter, I wonder if any of the geometry has changed too.


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

JCL said:


> Well that hasn't done much to convince me... The worry I have with the Iron Horse design is the short length of the links. Surely such a tight arc must have and effect on small bump sensitivity ?


the length of the links has nothing to do with the tightness of the arc/small bump sensitivity. it's all in the layout, and with the low leverage ratios and custom valved shocks the small bump sensitivity is excellent. honestly, ride as many different designs as you can, and see which feels the best (god I'd make a sh!tty salesman...  ).

shoot me a PM if you want to talk some more, I try to keep my comments here to informative posts and sarcastic comments directed at SMT.


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

member_x said:


> This is very interesting to me, why would Fabien add brakesquat to his frame? what are the benefits of brake squat? quicker deceleration maybe?


can't find the picture (maybe someone has it?), but the Stab had two positions for the floating brake, one that was parallel to the chainstay (neutral braking) and one that crossed it at an angle (squat under braking). think he was working with Shock Therapy, so maybe Brian can chime in.

basically when the bike squats a little under braking, it allows better cornering due to the lower center of gravity and less weight transfer towards the front of the bike. the benefits of this are debatable, as some prefer completely neutral braking and others prefer a bit of brake squat. there have been many, many posts on this, so I'd say search and read up on it a bit.


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## jp3d (Oct 9, 2004)

*The real deal...*

Hey dante,

I've been messing around with that linage sim program the last couple days, and I have seen how much fiddling must go into getting linkage bikes set up right - tiny changes in any pivot location makes a huge difference in the way the bike performs.

People keep talking about "S" shaped axle paths but I have yet to see a bike actually have one in the linkage program, it doesn't seem like it is even possible? All i have seen are:

backwards arcs: high-forward single pivot - high chain growth
basically vertical arc: near-BB pivot - low chain growth
forward arc: pivot above BB - very high chain growth

...or you can make *any* other linage design move in any of these ways depending on how you tweak the pivot locations.

The only thing I'm not sure I understand is exactly how brake jack/squat (whatever) works. It seems that just about every design ends up having the rear brake mount area rotate in the same direction as wheel/brake rotor rotation - so that would cause the force from the brake to compress the suspension.

If you have a really bad design where the brake mount rotates opposite as suspension compresses, which would be brake jack?

And then of the have a very drastic 4-bar linkage like on the Specialized Demo or Canfield Formula One (_or a formula one race car suspension_) the brake mount stays basically completely stable in relation to the rotor as the rear end compresses: no brake influence?

Anyone have some real, non-marketing B.S. insight into whether my understanding is correct? :thumbsup:


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Thanks for the list!

I'm not considering single pivot or faux bar, they need too much platform to pedal well and have brake jack isues...

Reign, 6Point... good choices but I like my Boxxer Ride. It's staying on whatever bike I get unless I find a ton of $$$ lying around for a new fork... the frame is pushing it as it is.

What type of suspension do DeVinci and Cove use?

So it comes down to:

Balance
Nomad
7Point

Maybe Intense, any opinions on the 6.6 or Uzzi? I don't know much about the Intense bikes except theyre dual pivot, and are lots of $$$.

I should be able to test ride everything except maybe the Canfield...


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Debaser said:


> Send a note over to Dave at Redsone: www.redstonecyclery.com - Turner and Intense dealer, has a 6.6 built and a cloesout RFX on the wall.


Yeah, I plan on it... I don't think I want a Turner, but I'd like to check out the 6.6. Have you rode the 6.6? Any opinions?

The goal being a bike that pedals better than my AC and has a more active suspension under braking.


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## jp3d (Oct 9, 2004)

And one more thing: 
how exactly does chain growth relate to how a bike "pedals"

If you have a suspension setup where the rear axle gets farther from the BB as the suspension compresses then you have chain growth.

When you pedal you are basically going to the fighting against the suspension movement and will feel pedal feedback.

If there was no chain growth then the suspension wouldn't stiffen under pedaling, there wouldn't be pedal feedback, but your energy would go into making the suspension "bob" instead.

-- Please correct me (*EXPLAIN*).

From my experience I'd have to say that all suspension bikes pedal like crap compared to a hardtail, so learn how to apply your power smoothly and get over it, or get a platform shock and try to turn your suspension bike back into a hardtail. Or you could run around trying out other people's bikes, and which ever one has the stiffest spring "pedals the best".

Sorry for all the questions and the lack of marketing crap like "Maestro" and "DW-link" or everyone's favorite "FSR"


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## Debaser (Jan 12, 2004)

davec113 said:


> Yeah, I plan on it... I don't think I want a Turner, but I'd like to check out the 6.6. Have you rode the 6.6? Any opinions?
> 
> The goal being a bike that pedals better than my AC and has a more active suspension under braking.


I haven't been on the 6.6 myself, the 5.5 is more than enough for 95% of my riding on it - just like that ride you and I did a while back.

After reading some of the crap posted on the Turner board last year about horst vs. non-horst, and talking to Dave about riding his Turner's back to back with each rear end, I wonder how important that faux-bar/4-bar distinction really is. Not very much, according to more and more people. Especially with all those fancy rear shocks running around these days.

I didn't pick Turner because I like the geometry of the Intense bikes way better. The 5.5 climbs way WAY better than my old '04 Enduro did, which has a sorta similar design as the Turners from last year.. Oh, and the 5.5 goes down just as good as any other bike I've ridden.

Anyway, good luck with the hunt.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

jp3d said:


> From my experience I'd have to say that all suspension bikes pedal like crap compared to a hardtail, so learn how to apply your power smoothly and get over it, or get a platform shock and try to turn your suspension bike back into a hardtail. Or you could run around trying out other people's bikes, and which ever one has the stiffest spring "pedals the best".
> 
> Sorry for all the questions and the lack of marketing crap like "Maestro" and "DW-link" or everyone's favorite "FSR"


Thats why I'm interested in a dw-link type suspension. IMO, it pedals a lot better than my faux bar bike. I could stand and hammer with very little rear bob, while the (crappy) fork was bobbing like crazy. I don't think this bike needs much platform or a hard spring to make it climb ok (IH 7Point).

A fs bike will never be a hardtail, but thats not what I'm looking for... I think a rear sus helps on techy climbs too.

I think my idea of a good rear suspension is a lot different than yours...


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Debaser said:


> I haven't been on the 6.6 myself, the 5.5 is more than enough for 95% of my riding on it - just like that ride you and I did a while back.
> 
> After reading some of the crap posted on the Turner board last year about horst vs. non-horst, and talking to Dave about riding his Turner's back to back with each rear end, I wonder how important that faux-bar/4-bar distinction really is. Not very much, according to more and more people. Especially with all those fancy rear shocks running around these days.
> 
> ...


I agree, a bike like the 5.5 would be great for most things, and I'd love to save the weight. Its a bit light for lift served riding and my fat a$$, though. All the parts I currently have are asking for a Nomad or 6.6 type frame to hang them on.

I can only afford one nice bike, and if it pedals well I'll suffer the extra weight and non-ideal uphill geometry until I can afford a lightweight trail bike.


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

jp3d said:


> Sorry for all the questions and the lack of marketing crap like "Maestro" and "DW-link" or everyone's favorite "FSR"


honestly, your best place for information would be www.dw-link.com . it goes pretty in-depth as far as pedaling, braking, etc, and is written by dave (ie dw) as opposed to a marketing person (hence the emphasis on anti-squat, axle path and chain growth).

otherwise dw has said a LOT about this, some here but also a lot on ridemonkey.com . his engineering goes so far over my head that I don't really think that I can explain instant center or anti-squat and do it justice.


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## Stregone (Aug 26, 2004)

I love my SX Trail. I ride it up down and all around. Only weighs ~35 pounds (large). I originaly wanted a Nomad, but the closest dealer was an hour away. There's a Specialized place a half mile from my front door.


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## ebxtreme (Jan 6, 2004)

davec113 said:


> What type of suspension do DeVinci and Cove use?


If you haven't looked at the Reign X, I highly recommend you take a look. It's coming with a 160mm Van 36 fork, so I don't see why the Ride couldn't work on it......

the DeVinci is a 4 bar horst link (canadian version) or a faux bar in the states. Believe me that it is possible to get the canadian version locally.

The Cove is a dual link setup (a la maestro, dw link, canfield, etc.). Don't know the particulars of the frame, but you can see an example of it by looking at the shocker.

EBX


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## sriracha (Jun 23, 2004)

jp3d said:


> ...I've been messing around with that linage sim program the last couple days...


what linkage sim program are you using?
can you download it for free?
i'd like to mess around with something like that.


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## jp3d (Oct 9, 2004)

sriracha said:


> what linkage sim program are you using?
> can you download it for free?
> i'd like to mess around with something like that.


http://www.bikechecker.com/

Try it out. You can move around all the pivot locations on existing bikes and see that any suspension design can be tweaked to give good results. Calculates axel path, chain growth, pedal feedback, leverage ratios, and even real force versus travel location. The only think it is missing is brake force influence calculations, but I think you can get a feel for how that plays in by watching how the brake mounting location rotates in relation to the rear wheel. There is also an online library with tons of bikes ready to be examined.

I'm very unimpressed with www.dw-link.com, nothing but marketing hype, no _real_ explanation of their "physics" It's a little better than specialized.com, but not by much :nono:


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

jp3d said:


> I'm very unimpressed with www.dw-link.com, nothing but marketing hype, no _real_ explanation of their "physics" It's a little better than specialized.com, but not by much :nono:


http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=234178 lot of good info from _dw himself.

will see if I can dig up some more... 

edit: shot you a PM, but here's another good thread:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140919&highlight="anti-squat"


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

dante said:


> honestly, your best place for information would be www.dw-link.com . it goes pretty in-depth as far as pedaling, braking, etc, and is written by dave (ie dw) as opposed to a marketing person (hence the emphasis on anti-squat, axle path and chain growth).
> 
> otherwise dw has said a LOT about this, some here but also a lot on ridemonkey.com . his engineering goes so far over my head that I don't really think that I can explain instant center or anti-squat and do it justice.


Yeah, dw-link.com seems like just more suspension propaganda. I know it needs to be understood by everybody, but there also needs to be more depth too...

Also, "this suspension is perfect for everything, and you can't argue with physics" is questionable. Some compromises must be made....


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

davec113 said:


> Yeah, dw-link.com seems like just more suspension propaganda. I know it needs to be understood by everybody, but there also needs to be more depth too...
> 
> Also, "this suspension is perfect for everything, and you can't argue with physics" is questionable. Some compromises must be made....


check the 2nd link I posted above for pedaling characteristics, and this is a good (but very, very lengthy) bit about braking and brake-jack in general: http://forums.farkin.net/showthread.php?t=35572

as far as in practice, take the bikes for a spin, compare them to other bikes and decide for yourself. theory is one thing, application is sometehing different, but how you feel on any bike is the important thing. :thumbsup:


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## Stalk (May 24, 2005)

davec113 said:


> I agree, a bike like the 5.5 would be great for most things, and I'd love to save the weight. Its a bit light for lift served riding and my fat a$$, though. All the parts I currently have are asking for a Nomad or 6.6 type frame to hang them on.
> 
> I can only afford one nice bike, and if it pedals well I'll suffer the extra weight and non-ideal uphill geometry until I can afford a lightweight trail bike.


0.5lb saving on the frame, 0.5-1.0lb saving on the fork (assuming going with light fork for 5.5) The rest is up to you on the component selection, so no much savings to begin with.

non-ideal uphill geometry? You probably talking about some other bikes  There could be some issues with 6.6 or Nomad that I'm not aware of, but climbing is not one of them. Mind you I'm running 160mm fork and 40mm stem and riding NorCal.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

mudpuppy said:


> Yay....a pissing match....
> 
> Anyway...the bikes on my list are the Reign X1 and the Trainstion Covert. The Bottlerocket is a good bike...but the seat tube is not long enough if you are tall....the covert looks like a PIMP bike...hopefully be test riding both in the near future.
> 
> ...


Maybe the Transition bikes are well made, but a faux-bar (single pivot) can't be in the same league as a Reign for climbing (anti-squat), brake jack, etc.


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