# Tuned BB7's?



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

I know, I know! Why would any self-respecting WW be using brake's like this?

I searched and came up with nothing. What I seek is anyone out there that has tuned their BB7's, either ti/al bolt's and/or shaving/milling/drilling.

Anyone out there? Results? I know that there were a few guy's running ti/al bolt's, but the other tuning is what i'm _really_ after.

PATIA!


----------



## Guest (Dec 20, 2005)

i have actually been considering doing some tuning on the Juicy7's on my bike. after looking at the new Juicy7 Carbons, they really took a lot of meat out of the clamp area.


----------



## CdaleTony (Jun 21, 2005)

'tuned' is that some WW term? or is it 'turned' as in reduce the rotor thickness...?
CDT


----------



## bike_freak (Dec 24, 2003)

This has been covered in the past, try searching under Avid Mechanicals 

Light weight cables and housing, light brake levers, some nice rotors like the new 2 peice Hopes and a bunch of Alu/Ti bolts is pretty much all the can be done. I'm sure there was ways of shaving the calipers down if you REALLY want to save weight...


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

CdaleTony said:


> 'tuned' is that some WW term? or is it 'turned' as in reduce the rotor thickness...?
> CDT


Tuned, not turned. Tuning of parts referrs to swapping steel bolts with ti/aluminum and some shaving here and there. Shaving would be material removal (ie filing, dremeling, milling, drilling etc).


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

bike_freak said:


> This has been covered in the past, try searching under Avid Mechanicals
> 
> Light weight cables and housing, light brake levers, some nice rotors like the new 2 peice Hopes and a bunch of Alu/Ti bolts is pretty much all the can be done. I'm sure there was ways of shaving the calipers down if you REALLY want to save weight...


I did search. C'mon man, I ain't THAT new anymore.  Avid gave me 25 results with nothing, avid mechanical gave me 20 results with nothing.

I'm looking for any info about if anyone out there HAS done any shaving and what their results were. I guess i'll just attack the old pair over the holiday's.


----------



## bike_freak (Dec 24, 2003)

AndrewTO said:


> I did search. C'mon man, I ain't THAT new anymore.  Avid gave me 25 results with nothing, avid mechanical gave me 20 results with nothing.
> 
> I'm looking for any info about if anyone out there HAS done any shaving and what their results were. I guess i'll just attack the old pair over the holiday's.


 I remember this topic has been covered in the past, but sadly, i also can't find it

One other thing that would save some weight is using Post mount forks and Frame


----------



## scrublover (Dec 30, 2003)

yes, but.....unless you already have all the ti/alu hardware, and lighter levers, you may be better off to sell the mech stuff and just get some juicys. for the money you'd spend on the bolts vs. the cost of the hydros minus the cost from selling the mechs, that is what i'd reccomend.

i just swapped two bikes from bb7/paul love lever/full housing setup to a jucy-5 setup.

the old mech stuff was using ti and alu hardware, and i still dropped a little more weight by going with the juicy5s.

not only do i love the hydros more than the mechs (and i was a loooongtime mech lover) but i was able to tune them for even more.

you won't save a ton, but you will save a little. check this out.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=136872

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=1349243#post1349243


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

scrublover said:


> yes, but.....unless you already have all the ti/alu hardware, and lighter levers, you may be better off to sell the mech stuff and just get some juicys. for the money you'd spend on the bolts vs. the cost of the hydros minus the cost from selling the mechs, that is what i'd reccomend.
> 
> i just swapped two bikes from bb7/paul love lever/full housing setup to a jucy-5 setup.
> 
> ...


Yes, I keep forgetting the simple fact that hydro weight's include the line's. My front and rear inner/outer cable's add 185 grams to the rest of the Avid's weight. 

Just for kicks I decided to start on one caliper last night. So far i've managed to massage 10 grams out of the caliper. I'm sure there's another whopping (!!!) 5 grams in there, maybe 8. I'll post picks when i'm done. Hey, it's FREE and I have some time to kill. Interestingly enough, the newer Type N caliper's are already 10 grams per caliper lighter the the older Type F.

I can't help but side up with the "negativity" towards hydro's in you second link (sorry, but i'm waiting for a deal, like you). Don't get me wrong - yes, there are a lot of people happy with their hydro's - clearly understood!!! I'm just not quite ready for THAT step..... yet. Heck, I have another frame and fork on their way and that combo might just be a v-brake set-up.

Anyways, THANKS for the link's! Very imformative.


----------



## lowmach (Oct 14, 2004)

so your at about 500 grams now right? either front or back..

your aiming for 400 grams right?

al rotors would yield 60 grams less for each side, but pricey

have you sampled al fastners yet?

keep it up dude. 

light mech's would be a dream.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

lowmach said:


> so your at about 500 grams now right? either front or back..
> 
> your aiming for 400 grams right?
> 
> ...


  No, the entire box of contents of one of Avid's BBDB7 (with 160mm rotor) is 355 grams - give or take for the different mounting brackets. That's caliper, pads, brackets, rotor and all hardware.

I'd like to try Stan's aluminum rotor's and appropriate pads but haven't started researching anything about them (wondering about fade).

Bolts - yup, every bolt in Ti would roughly drop about 35 grams.

The real key, from what i'm seeing so far (if you wanna compare to hydro's), are the cable's and lever's. Nokon and Extralite.... mmmmmmmm, goooooood. Oooouuuch, expensive!   BAH! It's only money and it IS Christmas, right?

Anyways, right now i'm just concentrating on shaving the crap outta the caliper. I'll see where that get's me first. If I wanna continue being a glutton for punishment then so bo it.


----------



## Guest (Dec 22, 2005)

if it comes down to JUST money, the Carbon Juicy 7's are super sweet, but not cheap.

if you want to save more weight than Ti hardware, put some Al hardware in there. just be carefull not to overtighten the fasteners


----------



## bike_freak (Dec 24, 2003)

mechmann_mtb said:


> if it comes down to JUST money, the Carbon Juicy 7's are super sweet, but not cheap.
> 
> if you want to save more weight than Ti hardware, put some Al hardware in there. just be carefull not to overtighten the fasteners


 i think the Juicy 5's are lighter then the Juicy 7 carbons...

If your really trying to save weight and willing to go Hydro, you should probably avoid the juicy's, Something like Martas or Mono mini's (but you already knew that ).

Good luck on getting your Avids to a respectable weight, looking foward to a detailed description


----------



## lowmach (Oct 14, 2004)

andrewTO- I was referring to one set of bb7 caliper/rotor/cable/housing/lever == 400 grams being a light goal.

yeah when you get a chance, lets see some photos of the shaven caliper.

so nokon is the lightest brake cable/housing? yikes their pricey. what about just using some black plastic tubing from home depot?

-cheers


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

bike_freak said:


> i think the Juicy 5's are lighter then the Juicy 7 carbons...
> 
> If your really trying to save weight and willing to go Hydro, you should probably avoid the juicy's, Something like Martas or Mono mini's (but you already knew that ).
> 
> Good luck on getting your Avids to a respectable weight, looking foward to a detailed description


Yes, good luck indeed. I was hoping to score some time on the Bridgeport today, but it was set-up for another job. Tomorrow is clean-up and that's it for this year.  Looks like they're stuck with a mere 10 gram weight savings for now. At least I can replace the two bolt's with titanium one's, so that'll help. Oh, they're M5 x 25mm, if anyone wants to know. These are the two bolts that pass through the caliper itself, holding the two halves together. The steel one's weight 10 grams for the pair.

I'll post some pics later tonight. They look HORRIBLE as they're not finished, so be prepared for nothing pretty.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

lowmach said:


> andrewTO- I was referring to one set of bb7 caliper/rotor/cable/housing/lever == 400 grams being a light goal.
> 
> yeah when you get a chance, lets see some photos of the shaven caliper.
> 
> ...


Ah yes, I see now. Apologies on my mis-interpretation. 400 grams would indeed be quite light for the set-up. Well, you've given me something to dream about, at the very least. 

I can't say 100% that Nokon's are indeed THE lightest. It appears that way with all the scattered info out there. Expensive? Oh heck yeah. I'd say they're on the same level as Stan's rotor's. Go figure, huh? 

I've toyed with alternatives to cable housing, but the whole "teflon coated inside" area is something I have no idea to get around. Yes, there never used to be such a thing, but i'd sooner pay the extra $$$ and suffer the extra weight for the convenience and performance. It's just too much of a no-brainer, IMHO.

Anyways, the "exercise in futility" continue's. 

On a WW-related note; just got my MegaAir in!     Hmmmm, sub-3-pound fork. Arrhgrhgrhrghrgrghrg.   Gotta go play.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Pics. Again, *work in progress.*


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Pics. Again, *work in progress.* Part 2.


----------



## Megaclocker (Sep 28, 2005)

AndrewTO said:


> Pics. Again, *work in progress.* Part 2.


wow all that for 10g...

I am a weight weenies myselft but sometimes i don't understand other, 20g of static weight are not even gonna make you 1sec faster on a 3h race...

Just cut your hair before the race


----------



## Fisty (Sep 19, 2005)

Megaclocker said:


> wow all that for 10g...
> 
> I am a weight weenies myselft but sometimes i don't understand other, 20g of static weight are not even gonna make you 1sec faster on a 3h race...
> 
> Just cut your hair before the race


See, you only thought you were a weight weenie! Yur a piker in the weenie world.


----------



## CulBaire (Jan 18, 2004)

Megaclocker said:


> wow all that for 10g...
> 
> I am a weight weenies myselft but sometimes i don't understand other, 20g of static weight are not even gonna make you 1sec faster on a 3h race...
> 
> Just cut your hair before the race


20g of static weight may not save you 1 second- but 20+20+20+20+20 is 100g, and that may well save you a second or two. Over the coruse of a race that could be a good 20 or more seconds... All the parts add up- so really everything should and will count.

Just for the record- Cutting your hair saves about 4g, which aint much.


----------



## b12yan88 (Jun 28, 2004)

Megaclocker said:


> wow all that for 10g...
> 
> I am a weight weenies myselft but sometimes i don't understand other, 20g of static weight are not even gonna make you 1sec faster on a 3h race...
> 
> Just cut your hair before the race


sometimes it's just fun to tinker with things.....

what are you using to shave that stuff off ? i hope youu buff that thing up after your done to get a nice polished look


----------



## Megaclocker (Sep 28, 2005)

b12yan88 said:


> sometimes it's just fun to tinker with things.....
> 
> what are you using to shave that stuff off ? i hope youu buff that thing up after your done to get a nice polished look


Yeah, its nice to save weight but those brake are realy ugly now, sanded and correctly polished they would look nice...


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

b12yan88 said:


> sometimes it's just fun to tinker with things.....
> 
> what are you using to shave that stuff off ? i hope youu buff that thing up after your done to get a nice polished look


Actually, i've been using a couple of 8" file's - a rat-tail and a half-round. I would have loved to use one of the Bridge Port milling machine's at work on my own time, but making a fixture wasn't allowed with the timing (Christmas - week off). I'd certainly be able to chop off more with better result's then. Maybe in January.

I mentioned this being an exercise in futility and there's some sad truth behind this;

First, these are Avid's early Type F caliper's. The newer Type N caliper's already have 10 grams less weight to them because Avid changed the casting mold to remove some weight. (thanks!)

Second, the majority of weight to be saved would be found in the gut's of the caliper. Im not about to go out and order titanium and custom machine all that stuff - that's where I draw the line. Also, swapping the two bolt's that hold the two halves together should be worth about 4-5 grams per caliper, so that'll help.

Anyways, i'm merely trying to see what's possible. I haven't seen anyone else do this and i'm curious to know result's. Who know's maybe what I learn here can be transferred into making my own brake and then ruling the disc brake world!!!!!!!!!!! 

/pipe dream  

Okay, so basically i'm just seeing what's possible and showing people what result's might be expected with changing/shaving what.

As CulBaire put it - 20+20+20.... it adds up. This takes work and i'm not afraid to do so.

Finished piece WILL be polished. What, i'm going to add 2 grams of paint after all this work?!?!?!?!  

Oaky, enough blabbing. There's food to eat and drink's to drink.

MERRY CHRISTMAS to all my fellow WW's!


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Okay, things are back to "normal" now. Sorry for the wait and thanks for the patience.

Progress so far; today I decided to simply make a fixture for this project. As far as I can tell nobody else out there has tried this and I figured if i'm doing the work I might as well utilize the resources I do have available. I got some milling done today (see pics) and i'm happy with the results so far. _Still more material to be removed_, followed my final shaping (hand filing) then polishing.

Also, note in these pics that the steel bolts (that hold the two caliper halves together) have been replaced with titanium - saved a whopping 5 grams per caliper! 

Weight savings so far;
stock caliper, no pads, no cable bolt - 149 grams
with milling completed so far - 133 grams
with titanium bolts - 128 grams

The ti bolts have tapered heads and i've noticed 2 things; the head on the bolt "under" the brake arm _might_ hit the cable bolt. I will resolve this by adding clearance between the two (or another trick, gotta wait and see). Also, the 2 ti bolts are 25 mm long - i'll be shorteneing those a little bit, maybe to 20 mm long.

At this point I feel that I can get this caliper at/under 120 grams without worry. 

Pics;


----------



## Pivvay (Aug 19, 2004)

I like it. I'm going to tune the BB7s on my single speed just for grins. I've got a mill anyway 

Keep us posted


----------



## Fisty (Sep 19, 2005)

Someone should send this link to Avid. Avid pretends not to have an ear but when every1 complained about all their weight lies, I did notice they have become much closer and often even under their advertised weight. Just maybe they Will start making lightweight mech brakes if they know the market is big enough. Heck, what would it cost them to run them through a CNC, maybe $10 each and then add $30 to the price and bingo takin a bigger market share which is key these days. Just my 2 cents or $2 with inflation adjustment.


----------



## Pivvay (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm amazed how many people run the BB7s, weight notwithstanding. If they were even lighter I would run them on every bike.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Fisty said:


> Someone should send this link to Avid. Avid pretends not to have an ear but when every1 complained about all their weight lies, I did notice they have become much closer and often even under their advertised weight. Just maybe they Will start making lightweight mech brakes if they know the market is big enough. Heck, what would it cost them to run them through a CNC, maybe $10 each and then add $30 to the price and bingo takin a bigger market share which is key these days. Just my 2 cents or $2 with inflation adjustment.


Actually Fisty, Avid hasn't been completely ignorant with the weight of their mech's. They DID make the Type N caliper's 10 grams lighter (each) than the first generation Type F. No, it's not a lot, but it at least shows they're weening the weight out in a manner appriopriate for a big company.... slowly.  I'm not trying to defend them too strongly, though. A big company like them should have no problem making a lighter weight caliper be taking out more material here and there, testing it and releasing it when they see it's still safe. Keep in mind that Avid has one of the largest pads in the industry (geee, is that why they're so powerful???) and they'd have to change pad style's to really get somewhere. A change like this wouldn't even need further CNC machinging, only a change of the die/mold used when the caliper halves are formed. It would be MUCH cheaper that way.

Okay everyone, you read it here first - when price's go through the roof for a XC-specific lightweight mech brake from Avid we all get to blame Fisty!!!!      J/K buddy!

I think that if someone wanted a REALLY lightweight design with disc caliper's they need to change the design to something _incredibly simple with slightly smaller pads._

*One related Q* - has anyone weighed a caliper ONLY for a J5/J7? PATIA! Just for comparison's sake. This is info I need for yet more research. I got a plan!

*Pivvay* - i'd LOVE to see your tuning of this brake! Please do be kind enough to share with us all. Tip - don't go nuts on the hump of the caliper where the stud is for the pad retainer. That stud need to remain in place, otherwise the pads will never stay put.


----------



## Fisty (Sep 19, 2005)

AndrewTO said:


> Actually Fisty, Avid hasn't been completely ignorant with the weight of their mech's. They DID make the Type N caliper's 10 grams lighter (each) than the first generation Type F. No, it's not a lot, but it at least shows they're weening the weight out in a manner appriopriate for a big company.... slowly.
> 
> Reminds me of intel and amd. Yearly upgrade and wackin ya a little at a time.


----------



## scrublover (Dec 30, 2003)

not bb7, but some juicy-5 tuning or whaqtever you want to call it. not a ton saved, but didn't really cost much, and didn't have to shave down the caliper body.....

caliper body bolts swapped to alu. mount bolts ti. cps bolts all ti up front, one ti/one alu in back. bar clamp bolt spacing Dremelled out so as to fit an alu aftermarket bolt. 

got two bikes with this setup, doing fine so far. 

not sure how much weight the cat adds. i think he's a bit over 9 pounds.


----------



## Fisty (Sep 19, 2005)

Im thinkin Cat? whatt?? this guys losin it, then I went back and found Waldo in mtb camo.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Fisty said:


> Im thinkin Cat? whatt?? this guys losin it, then I went back and found Waldo in mtb camo.


HAHAHAA! You and me both. "Where the **** is the cat?!?!??!!" BOING! Good one Scrub!

*Update;* got it down to 123 grams after work tonight. Looks like when all is said and done it'll be 30 grams lighter than stock, including the 2 ti bolts. I'll post pics in a bit. Gotta rest - back is killing me! I forgot how much I hate working on tat machine - it needs a riser for 6'4" users!!!!!


----------



## b12yan88 (Jun 28, 2004)

scrublover said:


> not bb7, but some juicy-5 tuning or whaqtever you want to call it. not a ton saved, but didn't really cost much, and didn't have to shave down the caliper body.....
> 
> caliper body bolts swapped to alu. mount bolts ti. cps bolts all ti up front, one ti/one alu in back. bar clamp bolt spacing Dremelled out so as to fit an alu aftermarket bolt.
> 
> ...


So what did you get the weight to ?


----------



## nj0ywatch1np0rn (Mar 29, 2005)

scrublover, where did u get your bolts from. I'm not too bike saavy so could you tell me the size and types of the bolts you replaced as well??? Thanks!


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Okay, more pics. If anything it's gotten uglier, but it's now at the point which it will turn into a beautiful swan (pain killers talking  ).   

Yes, I really took a lot of material off the back. Yes, I put a hole in the cable stop. Yes, it'll still work (don't ask me how long though  should be okay). No, i'm not done yet. Don't know how much more will get done this week, but this project is a priority, so i'm doing my best.  For the cause, right?!?!?!?!

As mentioned a few posts above, 123 grams (that's including the adjusters which aren't in the pics). Target is 119 or less. No sweat.


----------



## pedaler845 (Jul 18, 2004)

Looks cool but not pretty! Hey Avid, help us out and get a light mech. I want me some of those Alu bolts!


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

pedaler845 said:


> Looks cool but not pretty! Hey Avid, help us out and get a light mech. I want me some of those Alu bolts!


Yeah, it is one ugly pos, ain't it? Final shaping has begun which will be followed with polishing. I might have to spray paint it before I polish it so it'll come out in pics - I don't see it working with the flash on. 

*Question - * which company has the lightest _mechanical_ disc brake caliper??? I really need to know this and I don't have the $$$ to buy one of everything just to check. Preferably without pads or hardware, as pics show above, for a fair weight comparison. If anyone doesn't mind checking what they've got? PATIA!


----------



## jh_on_the_cape (Jan 12, 2004)

avid should do a black ops 'avid ultimate' mech disc brake.

like their V brake.

all nice CNCed and ano black. nice ti hardware.


----------



## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

jh_on_the_cape said:


> avid should do a black ops 'avid ultimate' mech disc brake.
> 
> like their V brake.
> 
> all nice CNCed and ano black. nice ti hardware.


SHHHH! Bite thy tongue. I don't know if I'll have a budget for that. Right now I can convince myself that there are not a lighter set of mechanicals that work as good. If a Black Ops version appeared, I don't have that excuse anymore.

Plus the Black would look really nice on the Ventana too....

Think it would be a short run too... much like the Avid Arch Supremes?

JmZ


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

JmZ said:


> SHHHH! Bite thy tongue. I don't know if I'll have a budget for that. Right now I can convince myself that there are not a lighter set of mechanicals that work as good. If a Black Ops version appeared, I don't have that excuse anymore.
> 
> Plus the Black would look really nice on the Ventana too....
> 
> ...


Yeah, really!

*Jh_on_the_cape -* stop giving them ideas!!!!!!   That Ultimate stuff is already expensive enough! Okay okay, i'm just kidding, it would be nice if Avid DID do something about this. I think your Ultimate/Black Ops idea is actually really cool - mix the old and new into one package.  Funny, but I don't see them getting too much lighter with either ti internals (oh, sorry, another expensive idea!) and/or dropping features (which is what make's them great).

Update - uhhh, no update right now. They look a little smoother than before. Still finishing it up whilst working on other projects.


----------



## Indiefab (Feb 5, 2005)

jh_on_the_cape said:


> avid should do a black ops 'avid ultimate' mech disc brake.
> 
> like their V brake.
> 
> all nice CNCed and ano black. nice ti hardware.


You read my mind. I've been thinking about that for weeks. 
If you want a piece of black ops hardware that anyone can afford, get the SAAGO stem from this guy on Ebay - not the lightest stem around but the engineering is amazing and none of your friends have one. LBS mechanics will deny that they exist. I've won a few bets - just walk in and ask for an Avid brand stem.










Ebay auction


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

More pics because I can only post 5 at a time.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Sorry for the wait. I'll provide my usual excuse of being tied up with other projects.

More pics. I'll be testing this to see how they work (read: if they break or not).


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

jh_on_the_cape said:


> avid should do a black ops 'avid ultimate' mech disc brake.
> 
> like their V brake.
> 
> all nice CNCed and ano black. nice ti hardware.


Ask and you shall receive. 

Target weight was 119, to save 30 grams per caliper (from the earlier version Type F caliper). Final weight before re-assembly = 118 grams, or a saving of 31 grams.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Last picture. It's the same caliper on each end as I only modified one. I'll see how it does on either end. I only posted pics in case anyone was curious as to how it would look on either end.

I'll post through the year with an update on if it survives.

If anyone else wants to try this you have the info you need in this thread. DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK!


----------



## Spin Cycle (Nov 6, 2004)

*Final weights??*



AndrewTO said:


> Last picture. It's the same caliper on each end as I only modified one. I'll see how it does on either end. I only posted pics in case anyone was curious as to how it would look on either end.
> 
> I'll post through the year with an update on if it survives.
> 
> If anyone else wants to try this you have the info you need in this thread. DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK!


Can you list the before vs. after weights

this is from the avid web page for BB7

Weight
361 grams (front)
367 grams (rear)

do you know the caliper weight of the 2006 BB 7 to compare your final projects weight to ?? Thanks, I run marta SL but like the idea of mechanicals if the total weigh get closer to my Marta's


----------



## Fisty (Sep 19, 2005)

I imagine the castings are heat treated. Hope you didnt grind the hardness out of them! Looks like alot a hours in it.


----------



## krustybike (Dec 31, 2005)

*Good Job*

Good Job Andrew, thanks for documenting your project so well. Please give us a long and short term performance review after you use them. 
Mark



AndrewTO said:


> Last picture. It's the same caliper on each end as I only modified one. I'll see how it does on either end. I only posted pics in case anyone was curious as to how it would look on either end.
> 
> I'll post through the year with an update on if it survives.
> 
> If anyone else wants to try this you have the info you need in this thread. DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK!


----------



## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

Just got my hands on some hope rotors. Thanks to Larry.

Avid Disc 160mm - 118g
Hope Disc (2 piece) 160mm - 88g

30g savings on one rotor alone. Nifty. Not a huge cost increase either.  Sorry at my 200 pound arse... I'm just not sure Stan's rotors would be right for me.

Hope 140mm (1 piece) - 88g
Hope 140mm (2 piece) - 74g
Formula 140mm (1 piece) - 85g

So with swapping from the 160/160 Avid Disc rotors to 160/140 hope rotors I saved 74g or the same weight as another rotor! No Ti Hardware or bolt tuning yet.

Swapping the Ti would bring down the weight another 35g from your post. That's either 109g or 144g (depending if that's for the bike or for just one brake) for both sides. Brings down the weight for a bike to 566 or so.

AndrewTO's shaving would bring it down to 486g for a full bike kit. That's a *bit* better than the 710g that's stock.

I'm not up with my hydros to know how that would compare. Sorry.



AndrewTO said:


> No, the entire box of contents of one of Avid's BBDB7 (with 160mm rotor) is 355 grams - give or take for the different mounting brackets. That's caliper, pads, brackets, rotor and all hardware.
> 
> I'd like to try Stan's aluminum rotor's and appropriate pads but haven't started researching anything about them (wondering about fade).
> 
> ...


----------



## coombs (Jun 22, 2005)

That's some sweet work Andrew. If you don't mind, I'm going to pray that your brake snaps on a slow flat section instead of a screaming downhill so that you don't die. It really is some nifty tuning. Just be careful.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Fisty said:


> I imagine the castings are heat treated. Hope you didnt grind the hardness out of them! Looks like alot a hours in it.


Had I stuck with the files then I wouldn't have gotten it anywhere near where it was now. Using the milling machine with the jig I made and the endmills in the dremel really helped to save a lot of time.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Spin Cycle said:


> Can you list the before vs. after weights
> 
> this is from the avid web page for BB7
> 
> ...


Before = 149 grams
After = 118 grams

Again, only the caliper, with the brake cable securing bolt and "washer". NO pads, no caliper mounts or associated hardware, no rotors or rotor bolts. You just subtract 31 grams from the weight of each. That is what my current level of tuning saved per caliper. That would be 330 for the front and 336 for the rear. What year are the weights you listed from?????????????????????

Just in case anyone isn't aware of it the weight difference from front to rear is in the adaptor that the caliper mounts to. Hmmm, I forgot all about the caliper mount.   I guess i'll continue the project with that and bolt tuning.

Sorry, but I don't have any of the 2006 model to check for you, only the early Type F and predecessing Type N calipers. I DO remember seeing a few members posting about it in the Brakes section here on MTBR though.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

JmZ - thanks for sharing and thanks to Larry, too!!!!! I need to inform you that I made a typo in my earlier post, which I have now corrected. I posted a 40 gram savings per caliper, where it is only 31. Your "total" would not be 486, but would be 504. Sorry!


Krusty - will do!


coombs - no, I don't mind at all!!!! Please, DO PRAY 'cuz I don't believe in God or whoever/whatever!!!!!!! I'll be carefull at the first stop sign and again at the first trail turn.


----------



## bubbrubb (Jun 10, 2004)

Megaclocker said:


> wow all that for 10g...
> 
> I am a weight weenies myselft but sometimes i don't understand other, 20g of static weight are not even gonna make you 1sec faster on a 3h race...
> 
> Just cut your hair before the race


That's what I'm saying dude...

Why go thru all the trouble to reduce weight when lighter options are available on the market? I dunno about you, but to question the fade of aluminum rotors when you're milling your brakes seems to be a total contradiction.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

bubbrubb said:


> That's what I'm saying dude...
> 
> Why go thru all the trouble to reduce weight when lighter options are available on the market? I dunno about you, but to question the fade of aluminum rotors when you're milling your brakes seems to be a total contradiction.


Lighter components on the market? I don't want hydro's. Yes, they're lighter, but they're not for me. I'll ask AGAIN - who has the lightest MECHANICAL disc brake caliper's on the market?

As for contradiction - I don't see how questioning rotor fade with aluminum rotor's contradicts what i've done with my BB7's. Can you explain this, please? The two have nothing to do with each other as far as i'm concerned. I'd like to hear what you have to say in case i'm missing something.

MY experience has been that I have enough of a fade issue with the stock Avid 160 mm Clean Sweep rotors to question using aluminum (or titanium for that matter) rotor's. This ties in with caliper's how?


----------



## bubbrubb (Jun 10, 2004)

AndrewTO said:


> Lighter components on the market? I don't want hydro's. Yes, they're lighter, but they're not for me. I'll ask AGAIN - who has the lightest MECHANICAL disc brake caliper's on the market?
> 
> As for contradiction - I don't see how questioning rotor fade with aluminum rotor's contradicts what i've done with my BB7's. Can you explain this, please? The two have nothing to do with each other as far as i'm concerned. I'd like to hear what you have to say in case i'm missing something.
> 
> MY experience has been that I have enough of a fade issue with the stock Avid 160 mm Clean Sweep rotors to question using aluminum (or titanium for that matter) rotor's. This ties in with caliper's how?


Why aren't hydros for you? They perform better, have better lever feel, and are lighter? If you're going to mill the caliper, you are essentially saying SRAM engineers be damned, there is weight to be lost...

While yes, you reduced the weight, I tend to think you may also reduce the integrity of your braking system. The chance of full failure is slim, but it could happen.... that was what i was saying in regards to brake fade w/ aluminum rotors. Kinda like "who cares if aluminum fades... its lighter!"

I dunno if Im making sense, but that was my point.

For what it is worth, i run shimano centerlock rotors with my avids w/ fantastic results. much better than the cleansweeps IMO.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

bubbrubb said:


> Why aren't hydros for you? They perform better, have better lever feel, and are lighter? If you're going to mill the caliper, you are essentially saying SRAM engineers be damned, there is weight to be lost...


(snickers politely) ANYONE that does any form of tuning via shaving, milling, drilling etc. is saying "damn (whoever)". I want more. Oh, LESS, I mean I want less.  As for hydro's - still not my thing. I understand many of the pro's and con's of either brake system - i'm not willing to chance living with the con's of hydro's. FWIW, I bought a Noleen Mega Air - highly sought after in the WW world...... it's going bye-bye. No true form of adjustable compression damping worth speaking of - i'm not willing to live with that one con inspite of it posessing EVERY other pro. Yes, i'm ruthless, but I want what *I* want. 



bubbrubb said:


> While yes, you reduced the weight, I tend to think you may also reduce the integrity of your braking system. The chance of full failure is slim, but it could happen.... that was what i was saying in regards to brake fade w/ aluminum rotors. Kinda like "who cares if aluminum fades... its lighter!"
> 
> I dunno if Im making sense, but that was my point.


I think I understand what you mean. Thank you for the clarification, appreciated. Actually, I agree with much of what you have to say. Do I know exactly how I may have effected the integrity of my brake? Nope, not embaressed to admit it either - i'm not an engineer and I don't have any fancy-dancy saftware to help me. I suspect the same of many other tuning projects. We gotta try to find out, right? Call me a Crazy Canuck, pioneering the way for future reference.



bubbrubb said:


> For what it is worth, i run shimano centerlock rotors with my avids w/ fantastic results. much better than the cleansweeps IMO.


Hmmm, interesting, i'll keep it "in the vault". Thanks.


----------



## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

andrew: Have you broken your calipers yet?


----------



## extensive (Jun 27, 2004)

wow, i think ill try this... any update on them tho?


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Sorry for the wait all.

I was using them for a short period of time earlier this year, about 2 weeks, without any problems at all, on a 160mm rotor. I just messed up my Formulas so while I wait for a replacement part i'm going to run it again, but with a 180mm rotor. I'll update once again after that ..... sometime mid-next week. :thumbsup:


----------



## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

AndrewTO said:


> Sorry for the wait all.
> 
> I was using them for a short period of time earlier this year, about 2 weeks, without any problems at all, on a 160mm rotor. I just messed up my Formulas so while I wait for a replacement part i'm going to run it again, but with a 180mm rotor. I'll update once again after that ..... sometime mid-next week. :thumbsup:


Andrew - it's obviously been quite some time since your modification of the Avid mechanical brakes. Any follow up beyond your 2 week use and the entire project? Or did you ditch the entire project and totally convert to hydros?

I am curious about it all.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Hey Bruce! Apologies for the wait!

Actually, the hydros never went back on completely. I ran my modified BB7 on the rear of my Misfit Psycles Dissent 29er for 6 or 7 rides through the '07 season, then on the front with a Reba 29er fork for 3 or 4 rides at the end of the season - no problems.

After that it was swapped over to my KHS Flagstaff 29er fs rig through this past season (a whopping 6 rides for the year :madman: ) and on the last 3 rides it was on the front - no problems. I have total faith in this little caliper. 

And that's not *****-footing around, either! I just rode the crap out of my rig and it was fine. Once I got past bedding the pads my brakes were the last thing on my mind. :thumbsup: 

I don't know how much that helps, but that's what I have for you. HTH!


----------



## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

AndrewTO said:


> Hey Bruce! Apologies for the wait!
> 
> Actually, the hydros never went back on completely. I ran my modified BB7 on the rear of my Misfit Psycles Dissent 29er for 6 or 7 rides through the '07 season, then on the front with a Reba 29er fork for 3 or 4 rides at the end of the season - no problems.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response. May I ask what kind of paint you used or would suggest for spraying them black once all the tuning has been completed? Did you prime the calipers first before the black?

BB


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

BruceBrown said:


> Thanks for the response. May I ask what kind of paint you used or would suggest for spraying them black once all the tuning has been completed? Did you prime the calipers first before the black?
> 
> BB


Nothing that fancy, Bruce. My mindset when doing the painting was that it wasn't a permanent job and that I might end up doing more tuning, so I did it quick, cheap and easy - I simply masked off the "guts" of the brake, with the brake actuating arm removed, and sprayed a couple of quick coats of black enamel spray paint directly on the aluminum. I let it dry and cure for, I think, 5 days, then put the arm, adjusters and remaining hardware back on and installed it on the bike.

If you're thinking of doing this, Bruce, the best advice I give you is to ALWAYS start your testing with the caliper on the rear of the bike. I'd like to think the reasons are obvious, but for those that aren't sure - you have less braking power on the rear so if something fails you are not likely to be in a dangerous point of no control of your bike.

If you, or anyone else, decide to do this please be kind enough to share.  Start a new thread, but be sure to post a link in this thread.  :thumbsup: Good luck!


----------



## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

AndrewTO said:


> Nothing that fancy, Bruce. My mindset when doing the painting was that it wasn't a permanent job and that I might end up doing more tuning, so I did it quick, cheap and easy - I simply masked off the "guts" of the brake, with the brake actuating arm removed, and sprayed a couple of quick coats of black enamel spray paint directly on the aluminum. I let it dry and cure for, I think, 5 days, then put the arm, adjusters and remaining hardware back on and installed it on the bike.
> 
> If you're thinking of doing this, Bruce, the best advice I give you is to ALWAYS start your testing with the caliper on the rear of the bike. I'd like to think the reasons are obvious, but for those that aren't sure - you have less braking power on the rear so if something fails you are not likely to be in a dangerous point of no control of your bike.
> 
> If you, or anyone else, decide to do this please be kind enough to share.  Start a new thread, but be sure to post a link in this thread.  :thumbsup: Good luck!


Not to worry, I would report the process if I did it.

Although intrigued with the idea of trimming some weight off via tuning the caliper material, I'm probably more interested in tuning via Ti bolts, smaller adapters and rotors, lighter cables and housing along with lighter levers to bring the entire system into a respectable weight/performance ratio. I was actually thinking of painting my calipers without doing any trimming since I like the look of the newer black BB7's. My calipers are the "N" type and only weigh 138g each as it is - so I'm way ahead of the newer BB7's. It's just the color preference that intrigues me now. Although I do own a Dremel, the experiment of shaving off a maximum of 18g per caliper may be futile for me.

So my goal is focused on how to tune the Avid mechanical disc brake set up to a competitive weight with a hydro disc brake system. Ti bolts. Light rotors. Light levers. Light housing. Not cheap, but I'm one of the odd ducks that is quite happy with the performance of my mechanical brakes and see how it can be done. They haven't failed me since 2002, so I figure dressing them up a bit may be worth the hassle. I have 2 sets of the type N caliper which weighs 138g compared to the BB7 later version which weighs 155g.

Looking at real weights for a front brake [weight includes lever, lever bolts, hose, fluid, caliper, pads but no adapter, no caliper bolts, no rotor, no rotor bolts]:

Avid Juicy 7: 266g
Avid Elixir R: 246g
Avid Elixir CR: 250g
Avid Juicy Ultimate: 219g (with trimmed housing length)
Avid BB7 (type N)/Avid Ultimate levers/PowerCordz cable/iLink housing/liner: 267g
Avid BB7 (type N)/Paul Love levers/PowerCordz cable/iLink housing/liner: 251g
Avid BB7 (type N)/Extralite Ultra levers/PowerCordz cable/iLink housing/liner: 225g
Avid BB7 (type N)/KCNC levers/PowerCordz cable/iLink housing/liner: 214g

I'm using the Avid Ultimate Levers and so if I go with the iLink housing/liner/cable - my mechanical disc set up will be right in there competitive wise with the hydraulic systems. I may try the Extralite levers on my other bike which would take my system down to the Juicy Ultimate weight. And I will be using light rotors, Ti bolts and tuning the system in those areas so I will have "converted" my mechanical discs to a decent weight all around.

BB


----------



## Pelly_NH (Feb 15, 2005)

Just curious if these brakes were still in one piece? I'm all for shaving weight, but messing around with the reliability of brakes would have me nervous bombing down the mountain. Even just messing with the rear brake, I don't want to rely on the front brake alone to slow me down from 40mph going downhill if that caliper snaps in half.


----------



## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

What gets me, is that he spent all that efford to save that weight and then put them on a Mountain Cycle San Andreas. Don't get me wrong, I have two of them and they are great bikes. But they are not the type of bike that you would go to such lengths to save a few grams.


----------



## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

An interesting topic, it is.

However, I'm rather into just swapping bolts and housing/cables than going for thinner rotors, much less for material removal.

In this regard, this thread is a revelation for me. I specifically mean the two bolts that hold the caliper together. Previously I thought that it isn't safe to substitute even Ti bolts for steel ones in calipers. But right here, I see guys running Aluminum bolts with hydraulic brakes!

Possible breakage issues aside, what about caliper losing stiffness with bolts made of less stiff materials? Can this difference be felt in brake operation?


BruceBrown, thanks for the brake system weight rundown! Do you happen to also know the weight for Hope Tech X2 caliper-lever-hose-pads-fluid assembly? I was only able to find weights for Tech M4 (346 g, braided hose, rear) and Tech V2 (331 g, braided hose, front) brakes.


----------

