# Racks and Packing



## jworm (Jun 22, 2016)

I can't be the only one who is thinking of just using racks and dry bags...right? 

The idea is just to strap dry bags onto the front and rear racks (no panniers) along with a top tube frame bag (retaining dual water bottle cages) of my gravel bike/commuter and use that for 3 day rides. Why are there no other examples of people doing this? Seems like a pretty quick, convenient solution that avoids having to spend a handful on fancy seatbags and handlebar bags. 

Am I missing something? The only hole in my system I see is why I would I go so simple and avoid panniers if I still plan to carry the weight of the racks. My answer is that I think the racks are the sturdiest option (no swaying of a seat bag) and keep the weight in line with the bike, making it the most balanced it could be. 

Comments/feedback?


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

How one local shop advertises bikepacking:


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## nowhereyonder (Nov 29, 2016)

jworm said:


> Why are there no other examples of people doing this? Seems like a pretty quick, convenient solution that avoids having to spend a handful on fancy seatbags and handlebar bags.


I've seen examples of this before on instagram on long distance rides, but haven't done it myself. I would definitely use a thicker, heavy duty material rather than a lighter nylon dry bag.

FWIW, strapping a dry bag stuff sack to the handlebars is pretty easy- a dry bag, two straps and done. No fancy harness really needed.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

There are no wrong answers, just what works for you. 8-10 hours of bumpy stuff will see holes in those thin bags and stuff coming loose. Waterproof with points to fix to the bike? Easy access to stuff? Dry bag on the bars? Brake lever and cable issues? Some things to think about, get back to us with how your set up works.


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## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

i do it all the time, works well.


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## VeloMax (Mar 18, 2017)

This is one of the recent incarnations of my ECR. I've tried just about everything so far, and the best setup for me is close to this - close but no cigar... yet.

Here we see an Old Man Mountain rear rack, Seattle Sports panniers, Revelate Designs frame, hbar, and pocket bags.












The only things that I've kept since this pic was the rear rack and the frame bag. I have an OMM front rack on order, and I'll try a Carradice Long-Flap on the front, or something similar.

Same with the back rack. I can always resort to a stuff sack. I installed the OMM rack because I the Revelate Designs Viscacha bag _barely_ fit. I installed a Portland Designs Bindle Rack - which actually worked to support the Viscacha quite well, but I wanted more versatility and the possibility of perhaps hanging water bottles on the sides of the rear rack. So I got the OMM rack.

For what its worth, I go the Seattle Sports panniers to try on this because they seemed like the right size, and they are in my opinion but they just don't have the quality. They look nice, but Chinese-made and I doubt they'll hold up.

The Revelate Designs bags are nice, but I'm not fond of how they attach. The Sweetroll seems droopy to me. Look at the pic and you'll see what I mean. Perhaps I just need to shore it up a little more, but I did purchase the Jones Loop attachment kit for it also. I also bought the cradle to fiddle around with, but all in all, I came to the conclusion that I might as well run a front rack and be done with it.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

The whole soft bag/bikepacking approach was developed largely to enable light(er)weight multi-day trips on rougher terrain that would often lead to a variety of problems when using racks/panniers. If you're not riding that kind of terrain, then use whatever works. Let the terrain inform your packing system choices.


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## VeloMax (Mar 18, 2017)

Smithhammer said:


> The whole soft bag/bikepacking approach was developed largely to enable light(er)weight multi-day trips on rougher terrain that would often lead to a variety of problems when using racks/panniers. If you're not riding that kind of terrain, then use whatever works. Let the terrain inform your packing system choices.


I totally agree. At 59, I'm not into squirrely **** like I was in my youth. The most-challenging stuff I do these days is old logging roads and really easy singletrack. Hence, the racks for me. The ECR is more of an expedition bike than an MTB or gravel bike anyway. Its a rank rolling on 29x3's.


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

jworm said:


> I can't be the only one who is thinking of just using racks and dry bags...right?


I think the only thing you're missing is enough time spent talking with people about this to realize that everyone with more time than money has tried something like this at some point. Before I had a front rack, I just tied a dry bag on to my handlebars. After I decided to ditch the front rack, and before I got the Revelate harness, I went back to my drybag tied to the handlebars.

It works. It's fiddly. I wrapped the bag in a sleeping pad which kept the abrasion down. It worked best when I was camping for more than one day at the same spot, because strapping everything back on was a pain. But, sure, if it's what you have, it's better than staying home. I was happy to carry a dry bag on my handlebars when that's the best solution I had. And when I got the Revelate harness, I was even happier.



jworm said:


> Am I missing something? The only hole in my system I see is why I would I go so simple and avoid panniers if I still plan to carry the weight of the racks. My answer is that I think the racks are the sturdiest option (no swaying of a seat bag) and keep the weight in line with the bike, making it the most balanced it could be.


I think that's a reasonable question, and maybe you should try a few things before you rule anything out. I've never had any serious balance issues with panniers, and you can get some that attach better to your rack. Now you have a solid rack, and bags solidly attached. I feel like the tendency to go with a seat bag is because you want to lose the weight of the rear rack and/or you want to head down some very narrow single-track where panniers might get hung up on something. Or you're riding some bike that won't take a rear rack easily. I don't mind a seat bag, but a rear rack with panniers is still my preferred way to carry a rear load. With some Front-Rollers on the rear, my load is high enough, and not much wider than I am.

I've tried solutions from the cheapest on up to a full, Revelate, bike-packing set-up. The cheaper, figure-something-out method works fine, but having purpose-built gear makes constant re-loading on the bike easier and makes your gear more likely to last. I've never been sad to head out for a trip with whatever cheap and/or DIY gear I could make work. But I've never regretted when I finally purchased the good stuff, either.



VeloMax said:


> The Revelate Designs bags are nice, but I'm not fond of how they attach. The Sweetroll seems droopy to me. Look at the pic and you'll see what I mean. Perhaps I just need to shore it up a little more, but I did purchase the Jones Loop attachment kit for it also. I also bought the cradle to fiddle around with, but all in all, I came to the conclusion that I might as well run a front rack and be done with it.


Interesting. I had a front rack for the longest time, and it was a love/hate relationship. When I used it, it was very handy, and the rest of the time, which was most of the time, it was in the way. Had to find work-arounds from my crown-mounted headlight. It interfered with rack on the front of the bus, which I use a lot during my commute. It basically added bulk and weight to my bike that didn't serve a purpose the 95% of the time that I wasn't actually touring. And yet I was too lazy to take it off.

So I love the harness. It goes on and off easily, and the bag goes in and out of the harness easily. If I've found the Saltyroll bag to be a little saggy, I just push everything in a little tighter and roll the ends up a few more times. But then it looks like you might have the largest Sweetroll, which is a little bigger than my Saltyroll, so that might make a difference. It's also possibly not as easy to pack it up tightly when the bag doesn't easily come off the bike. I know I've tried to empty and fill my Saltyroll while still in the harness, and it never works as easily. But so far I've a number of ways to carry gear, from a traditional touring, two-rack, four-pannier set up, to a full, bike-packing set-up. My preference right now is a handlebar roll up front, and some smaller, "front" panniers in the back.


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## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

VeloMax said:


> This is one of the recent incarnations of my ECR. I've tried just about everything so far, and the best setup for me is close to this - close but no cigar... yet.
> 
> Here we see an Old Man Mountain rear rack, Seattle Sports panniers, Revelate Designs frame, hbar, and pocket bags.
> 
> ...


I have a set of Seattle Sports panniers and they work well. I especially like that they are medium sized instead of large, to discourage over packing. They have been durable for me, and waterproof so far.

OTOH, I am phasing out my use of conventional front and rear racks since I bought a new Trek 1120, which has unique proprietary racks front and rear. The rear rack comes with a harness on each side that will hold a 8 liter dry bag snugly. The front rack allows mounting a handlebar roll and/or a rolled foam sleeping pad, all clear of the shifter/brake cables.


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## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

for a couple times a year, they do work. but I use mine for all kinds of things,


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## Stillcrankin (Jul 29, 2017)

With a dropper seat post on the bike I (also) use for bikepacking, I decided a rack was the way to go. I used the method here -->http://forums.mtbr.com/bikepacking-...solution-frame-without-braze-ons-1051474.html to attach it and made a harness to carry a stuff sack. It has worked flawlessly, is easy to load and unload, is narrower than my body and is very versatile. I really like that you can load the stuff sack in your tent or at the picnic table and just strap it to the bike.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

I've done a few trips with this rack setup and it works great, even off-road on rougher terrain, as long as you don't get too crazy. The key is keeping the panniers small and light.

Blackburn 'Outpost' rack w/ Rogue Panda 'Kaibab' mini panniers:


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## Fatbikefan (Oct 12, 2017)

Dear mr. smithhammer, I have same bike as your blackborow and love it! 2 questions: have u considered carbon rims, and would be interested in your pros/cons. #2 are you using the ergonomic grips (with horns, my description) on aluminum or carbon handlebars, and do u have any concern with “hooking” a tree or limb? Thanks very much!


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Fatbikefan said:


> Dear mr. smithhammer, I have same bike as your blackborow and love it! 2 questions: have u considered carbon rims, and would be interested in your pros/cons. #2 are you using the ergonomic grips (with horns, my description) on aluminum or carbon handlebars, and do u have any concern with "hooking" a tree or limb? Thanks very much!


Yeah, I've considered carbon rims, but if I were going to buy some, I wouldn't go cheap, and I just haven't found a compelling reason to drop that much coin vs. the benefits. I have two wheelsets for this bike right now - Clownshoes with Bud/Lou and Mulefuts with Wrathchilds. The latter are the wheelset that I run most of the time and they are reasonably light enough and durable. The Clownshoe/Bud/Lou comes out when I need the extra float/traction for the deep stuff.

For multi-day trips, I like the Ergons with the bar ends, and I like the multiple hand positions. But most of the time, I just run a pair of 'normal' Ergons without the bar ends. I don't like Ergons on my trail bike and for more technical riding, but for the things I typically use my Blackborow for, they're fine.

I'd also add that I love the Blackborow so much that I recently sold the frame pictured above, and built up another one. I think Salsa nailed it with this one. 

Apologies for the derailment!


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## Keyaroxy (Jul 14, 2004)

Cant find info on the Rogue Panda Panniers - any assistance appreciated


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Keyaroxy said:


> Cant find info on the Rogue Panda Panniers - any assistance appreciated


Yeah, I just looked at their site, and I don't see the panniers on there anymore. Revelate and Porcelain Rocket make similar options.


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## NDTransplant (Feb 6, 2012)

Bedrock Bags has some really nice looking panniers now as well.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Stillcrankin said:


> With a dropper seat post on the bike I (also) use for bikepacking, I decided a rack was the way to go. I used the method here -->http://forums.mtbr.com/bikepacking-...solution-frame-without-braze-ons-1051474.html to attach it and made a harness to carry a stuff sack. It has worked flawlessly, is easy to load and unload, is narrower than my body and is very versatile. I really like that you can load the stuff sack in your tent or at the picnic table and just strap it to the bike.
> 
> View attachment 1164476


I have used this method too with a dropper post. 
IN your picture it would be nice to have a rack about an inch off the top of the tire which would give you more dropper space. And for the part of the bag the dropper hits I pack with something with some give as it appears your does.
Even cooler would be a built in or removable fender. I wish I had the equipment and some mad fabrication skills!


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## nowhereyonder (Nov 29, 2016)

Keyaroxy said:


> Cant find info on the Rogue Panda Panniers - any assistance appreciated


Here's the link, but they're out of production for now. That's a shame- they look nice and sturdy for trail riding.


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## dh024 (Dec 11, 2010)

Arkel also make some super lightweight and inexpensive, yet moderately durable, soft panniers. I run them front and rear, with plenty of room to carry lots of gear. Best benefit: no backpack to carry (although, I do recognize that for some terrain, having some gear in a backpack can be very beneficial).


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

On a recent trip to SD for 4 days. Topeak rear rack. I hate panniers but this thing offers a lot of real estate to strap bags to. I have since downsized with a down sleeping bag, and a lightweight tarp instead of that 2 man pup tent as well as having Josh at broadfork bags make me a custom frame bag instead of that universal Blackburn bag. So much more storage space!!!!


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

richwolf said:


> I have used this method too with a dropper post.
> IN your picture it would be nice to have a rack about an inch off the top of the tire which would give you more dropper space. And for the part of the bag the dropper hits I pack with something with some give as it appears your does.
> Even cooler would be a built in or removable fender. I wish I had the equipment and some mad fabrication skills!


 Fenders are easy with a rack. Get yourself some vinyl siding. Flexible enough. Heat up a nail red hot to poke some holes in it. Think vise grips for this. Cut and shape as needed. Thin down towards bb, pay attention to heel clearance. Can fix to seat tube and bottom of rack with zip ties as need. Easier with no front der. too.


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## dh024 (Dec 11, 2010)

iowamtb said:


> On a recent trip to SD for 4 days. Topeak rear rack. I hate panniers but this thing offers a lot of real estate to strap bags to.


Out of curiosity, why do you hate panniers? Do you mean conventional "hard attachment" panniers? Tried soft panniers instead?


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

dh024 said:


> Out of curiosity, why do you hate panniers? Do you mean conventional "hard attachment" panniers? Tried soft panniers instead?


I fall in between minimalist and not. I actually try to be a minimalist but if adding a rack lets me organize my bags better than I say do it. But with panniers I feel you could bring everything including the kitchen sink. I may have seen some experiences to myself that turned me off. I got friends who use them and when we go on a trip they pack everything including a damm cot to assemble and sleep on in their tent. So for myself I don't see the need to carry panniers and the extra weight they add but to each their own. On this trip in particular (the one my bike is packed for in the pic) one of our friends was a colon cancer survivor and was struggling really bad. So we pitched in as a group and carried his stuff for him to lighten his load. I got stuck with both his pannier bags. Once them babies were on, my Soma felt like a wet noodle. It just felt flexy and like a hott woman shaking her behind as she walked. As I pedaled, the bike just waved at every one behind me lol. I couldn't stand it at all. I was loaded down for sure. This is a pic of my bike later in the trip.


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## dh024 (Dec 11, 2010)

Understood. So I guess from that logic, small panniers would be OK, but not large panniers.

I have the same issue with trailers - I started on a trailer first, and one of the biggest problems I had was the ability to carry WAY more stuff than I needed. Smaller bags forced me to pare down and carry just what I needed.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

As always we see trends going in one direction then making their way back.
At first seat bags and front rolls were the be all end all for bikepacking particularly for fast bikepacking.
Then we see issues with seatbags affecting rider mounting and dismounting, wag and sway, carrying the weight up higher and then the dreaded hitting the tire and putting holes into our expensive bags (particularly for shorter people and using them on 29 plus bikes. Now they come out with stabalizers yet they still don't address the higher carrying of weight, tire clearance and what a PITA they are to get something out that is always at the bottom! Plus they usually don't work with droppers.
Front rolls can hit the front tire upon fork compression, smash cables and are often hard to load if the interior of the bag is a sticky surface.
Now frame bags are the bomb. Carry weight low, can hold a lot and work well for hydration packs. 
I thought the Trek Stache 1120 was a bit of a gimmick with their racks but the more I look at it I like the rear rack system and it's ability to hold more than a seatbag yet still allow use of a dropper post. The front rack is cool too but I want a front suspension fork on my bikepacking rig.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

There's nothing wrong with avoiding racks and panniers - the rackless, soft bag approach is a great way to keep minimal while touring, no matter what terrain you're on. Frankly, I have to laugh when I see people loaded down to the gills, struggling to ride their bike up a long grade, looking absolutely miserable. A lot of people touring on bikes carry way too much stuff, which is fine if that's your conscious choice. But when it's so much stuff that you don't even look like you're enjoying what you're doing, then maybe it's time to rethink your approach.

As mentioned above, a lot of it comes down to terrain, and terrain is going to dictate your choices. You can run anything you want on milder terrain. But the rougher it gets, the less that racks and full-sized panniers make sense, and the more likely you are to be repairing things en route. On moderately rough terrain, a stout rack and some _small_ (10-12L) panniers, that are deliberately built for that kind of terrain and don't have the janky plastic fittings etc. found on a lot of road panniers, can make some sense.



> ...I thought the Trek Stache 1120 was a bit of a gimmick with their racks but the more I look at it I like the rear rack system and it's ability to hold more than a seatbag yet still allow use of a dropper post.


Interesting approach, but I'll be curious to hear some real-world reports on those in a year or two, before I'd get too enthusiastic about them.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Found a clamp on rack that works with my small Trek Stache. Removed the top platform and I can now run a seatbag that won't hit the rear tire. Also allows a couple of inches of dropper movement.
Very nice rack and I like the bottom braze on for possible DIY fender mount. Model is a Topeak MTX that comes in three sizes.


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