# How long until basically every bike company makes an ebike?



## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

I know there's not a definitive answer for this, but I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are. It seems like every company thats of decent size is making ebikes now. I'm basically a grumpy 90 year old man stuck in a 35 year old body, and I dislike ebikes to the point that I don't even want to support companies that make them. I'll spare the details because it's been hashed out here 6 million times, but at this point if a company announces that they are dropping an ebike I just scratch them off my list of potential purchases. I advocate and/or protest with my pocketbook and I'm allowed to have stupid views, right?

I'm sure this will offend some people, which is fine. You don't have to agree with me, and I'm just curious about people's thoughts on one question: what do you think are the odds I'll be able to buy a bike in 5 years? Do you think most companies will have some model of ebike in their lineup, or will this (hopefully) die out in 3 seasons like fat bikes did?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I'm sure this will offend some people, which is fine. You don't have to agree with me, and I'm just curious about people's thoughts on one question: what do you think are the odds I'll be able to buy a bike in 5 years? Do you think most companies will have some model of ebike in their lineup, or will this (hopefully) die out in 3 seasons like fat bikes did?


I think you'll have to quit riding.


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## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

There will be plenty of options, there are some companies that will not crush the soul out of biking.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think you'll have to quit riding.


I'll start building my own frames. I can teach myself to braze.


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## steve.1067 (Oct 19, 2014)

I'm a 53 y.o. and I do know that age is only a number, but I could see myself on one in 10 years or so.


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## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

steve.1067 said:


> I'm a 53 y.o. and I do know that age is only a number, but I could see myself on one in 10 years or so.


Ha, I am 50 and or it comes to that I will do a different sport. But an ebike is a different sport, it is not mountain biking, it is its own thing and that is fine, it puts me off when people try to say they are the same thing and they are not.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Arm&Hammer said:


> There will be plenty of options, there are some companies that will not crush the soul out of biking.


So dramatic!


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I rode


J.B. Weld said:


> So dramatic!


I know, besides.. I thought that was the UCIs job.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

What do you guys think...20 pages by 9:00 PM Pacific?


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

Which companies do you see holding out? And do you think they are holding off, or just falling behind?

QBP has electric Civia bikes and an electric Surly cargo bike but there's no Salsa FS yet.

...yet.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

You'll be fine on your boutique SS...

As will I, when I'm not on my e-bike...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Arm&Hammer said:


> But an ebike is a different sport, it is not mountain biking, it is its own thing and that is fine, it puts me off when people try to say they are the same thing and they are not.


Then why are they using our trails?

To the OP's point, yes, you will still have choices. And I absolutely agree with your position.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Now where's that ebike on fire gif?


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## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

Blatant said:


> Then why are they using our trails?
> 
> To the OP's point, yes, you will still have choices. And I absolutely agree with your position.


They are not allowed on all trails, why are Hikers and Equestrians?

Mountain biking is self powered, that is it. Adding a motor changes the sport, are there similarities, yes - just like moto has similar things as well. You all can argue a million times it the same thing, but is it not, quite trying to justify your use of an ebike. If you want one, great. I have no problem with them, also have no problem with many other recreations that people do, but they are not the same.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Blatant said:


> Then why are they using our trails?
> 
> To the OP's point, yes, you will still have choices. And I absolutely agree with your position.


 You mean the hikers trails? Most trails were hiking trails long before they were mountain bike trails. ?‍♂


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## toyotatacomaTRD (Apr 4, 2012)

Arm&Hammer said:


> They are not allowed on all trails, why are Hikers and Equestrians?
> 
> Mountain biking is self powered, that is it. Adding a motor changes the sport, are there similarities, yes - just like moto has similar things as well. You all can argue a million times it the same thing, but is it not, quite trying to justify your use of an ebike. If you want one, great. I have no problem with them, also have no problem with many other recreations that people do, but they are not the same.


Everyone I come in contact that has them, even the bike shop guy wanted me to try one, it seems like the generic line is "so you can ride further". That's it? Just ride further, or turn around sooner.


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## TiPiPlate (Feb 28, 2021)

Specialized/Trek make some nice eMTBs that are light-ish and kinda quick. KTM makes an electric MX bike that looks sweet, heavy and fast as heck. I think the future is a race to the middle -- the result will be really rad, but not necessarily an eMTB or an eMX bike. The rides that will be done on those will be really long and the epic rides will be something not currently being done on MTBs.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Hi Everybody!


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Sparticus said:


> Hi Everybody!


This board is so incredibly easy to troll when you're sitting outside enjoying the weather and drinking whiskey on a nice Sunday evening.

Would you have squashed this immediately if you were still a mod?


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> This board is so incredibly easy to troll when you're sitting outside enjoying the weather and drinking whiskey on a nice Sunday evening.
> 
> Would you have squashed this immediately if you were still a mod?


I've never been a mod.
Just wanted to check in before the bin.
=sParty


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Sparticus said:


> I've never been a mod.
> Just wanted to check in before the bin.
> =sParty


I must be confusing you with someone else... Picard maybe.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

rideit said:


> What do you guys think...20 pages by 9:00 PM Pacific?


I'm hoping for mass hysteria before the mods notice.


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## toadmeister (Sep 24, 2017)

If you don’t like an eBike, don’t buy one.

If you don’t like alcohol don’t drink it.

If you don’t like marijuana don’t smoke it.


I could go on.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> This board is so incredibly easy to troll when you're sitting outside enjoying the weather and drinking whiskey on a nice Sunday evening.
> 
> Would you have squashed this immediately if you were still a mod?


What the hell...................you are not sharing? I'm sitting here looking at cans of White Claw my wife likes and you have not shared any of your fine beverage.


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## sharpendjay (Sep 8, 2020)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I know there's not a definitive answer for this, but I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are. It seems like every company thats of decent size is making ebikes now. I'm basically a grumpy 90 year old man stuck in a 35 year old body, and I dislike ebikes to the point that I don't even want to support companies that make them. I'll spare the details because it's been hashed out here 6 million times, but at this point if a company announces that they are dropping an ebike I just scratch them off my list of potential purchases. I advocate and/or protest with my pocketbook and I'm allowed to have stupid views, right?
> 
> I'm sure this will offend some people, which is fine. You don't have to agree with me, and I'm just curious about people's thoughts on one question: what do you think are the odds I'll be able to buy a bike in 5 years? Do you think most companies will have some model of ebike in their lineup, or will this (hopefully) die out in 3 seasons like fat bikes did?


Think this through for a second....bicycles were invented about 204 years ago. In that time we have seen a whole lot of powered devices which transport people. People still love walking and riding traditional bikes. There is nothing revolutionary about these 50 pound pigs in my opinion that even remotely threatens the existence of traditional bikes.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

I’m glad you mentioned brands, and not bikes. 

Meaning, you’re not worried about access to bikes (because they are the only things available on the market). But rather finding brands that don’t even offer an ebike.

Because like others, I’d assume that there is no way normal bikes will disappear, and that most brands will carry both.

If I had to guess, I’d say that most big brands will go that way. So I’d think it’s most likely that smaller more boutique brands are less likely to add ebikes to their lineup. As typically those more enthusiast/speciality brands aren’t relying on mass appeal/large volumes, and can afford to “do their own thing”.


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## Amt0571 (May 22, 2014)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I know there's not a definitive answer for this, but I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are. It seems like every company thats of decent size is making ebikes now. I'm basically a grumpy 90 year old man stuck in a 35 year old body, and I dislike ebikes to the point that I don't even want to support companies that make them. I'll spare the details because it's been hashed out here 6 million times, but at this point if a company announces that they are dropping an ebike I just scratch them off my list of potential purchases. I advocate and/or protest with my pocketbook and I'm allowed to have stupid views, right?
> 
> I'm sure this will offend some people, which is fine. You don't have to agree with me, and I'm just curious about people's thoughts on one question: what do you think are the odds I'll be able to buy a bike in 5 years? Do you think most companies will have some model of ebike in their lineup, or will this (hopefully) die out in 3 seasons like fat bikes did?


I can't get my head around why a person that has no physical issues would buy an eBike. I know 60 y/o people who ride conventional mountain bikes with zero issues, so why someone would pretend to be cycling when he is essentially riding a motorbike is beyond me.

If you want to keep in good shape, buy a bicycle. If you're too lazy for that, just buy a motorbike. After all, the first motorbike was a bicycle with an engine, so an eBike is essentially a motorbike, and denying it to make yourself feel better is a lie.

And don't start with the idea that you also do exercise on an eBike because you turn the cranks. It's a joke. I've ridden one and you can esentially turn the cranks with zero effort 90% of the time.


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## NoCanSurf (Feb 19, 2021)

This one's easy - if the company is publicly traded, they will have an e-Bike within two (or less) years - all you do is follow the money. If bike builder is a smaller manufacture, they either already have an e-bike or will have one in under a year. It's really no different than what occurring in the auto industry right now.

Car like bike makers aren't all switching over to electric out of autistic motives, they are simply following the margins. The auto industry seen the electric car future as easier to build (less labor costs) and more profitable to sell. To the auto industry the eCar is less money out (cost to build and reduced labor cost) and more money in (higher retail price) which means one thing Profit! Bike makers are the same.

Time will tell if the big bike manufactures will follow Ford's model and drop their low profitability models, and just focus on the big money makers. Ford didn't make enough profit in selling small cars to keep making (in the states). Ford dropped all its cars from the US market because they were not profitable _enough, _Ford made money on each small car they sold, but to keep the shareholders happy, cars where dropped for high profitability* trucks. Ford says if you can't a afford one of thier trucks (even with 9-10 years financing) you should just buy one of their certified used one&#8230; Bike makers aren't there (yet). I think they won't bike makers dropping their entry level bikes for a while.

Now onto e-bike. Few if any of the major bike manufactures are developing their own electrical powertrains they're buying them from Germany or China. Modifying existing frame designs and getting them into showrooms. This should be apparent from the number of small brands and bike builders that have also releasing electric models. None of these small builders have the capability to develop their own electric powertrain. It's the same model as with groupsets. They are all buying the groupsets from Shimano or more recently SRAM. The bike companies have a strange relationship with the component makers, by depending on them to make the groupsets, they have the ability to explore different aspects on bike building like frame material technology. They are on the flip side whole depended on groupset makers for one of the most critical components of their products. The e-bike will be the same. Trek and Giant and the others will have their own names for their technology in their bikes but are sourcing it from an outside vendor. So, like with the groupsets, the bike builders will be depended on the e-powertrain vendors to keep pushing the technology forward.

Ebike drive-trains could be a place for companies Campagnolo, Rotor and FSA to become completive, as Shimano's offer is&#8230; _it could be better_ and I don't know of an offer from SRAM.

*One of the great secrets of the auto industry is that the base model cars (or trucks) cost about the same to build as the higher end models. That's to say the base model F150 and the fancy fully tricked out F150 models cost nearly the same to build. A base model F150 is about $30K (if you can find one) while the top-of-the-line models cost $90+K. Those two trucks cost within a few percentage points of one another to build, but one sells for $45,000 more.

(I just checked my local Ford dealer, and they have a $75,000 F150, right now, and it's just a truck. It doesn't even turn into a robot or fly into space. Nothing cool at all. And&#8230; it's far too pretty to anything truck-ish with, like haul bricks or tow a boat with.)


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

eBke futures Might depend on if a manufacturer can make a profit on them. Improvements hinge on a one upping system to attract buyers. We see this everyday with any product we buy.

My curiosity is just how much interest in bikes of any kind is out there. I look around my home and count up a super low interest in biking at all. Nice weekend day, paved bike trail, people on box store rides, interest in biking spikes once or twice a year.

I do appreciate one Mom who bikes to/from the nearby school with her kids while her friends join the car line.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I’m not as entertained as I thought I would be from reading the first page, step it up people.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I'm not as entertained as I thought I would be from reading the first page, step it up people.


No joke. I thought I was dropping a hand grenade. Apparently people are over the ebike arguments.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Streetdoctor said:


> You mean the hikers trails? Most trails were hiking trails long before they were mountain bike trails. 🤷‍♂️


Actually. around me most of the trails were built and are maintained by mtbers and hikers are the guests. Bikes have the right of way.
That's the thing with ebikes, one shouldn't assume all trails and situations are the same.

I imagine some of the smaller manufacturers will not be selling ebikes.



SingleSpeedSteven said:


> No joke. I thought I was dropping a hand grenade. Apparently people are over the ebike arguments.


Yep, over the ebike argument. A few on the trails here and there, no problem. If they become the majority and I'm having to constantly pull over to let them by, I'll probably stop mtbing.


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## Amt0571 (May 22, 2014)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I'm not as entertained as I thought I would be from reading the first page, step it up people.


I alread said eBikes are motorbikes. I was expecting a lot of backshlash, but so far it hasn't happened. I did my best.

Oh! and BTW: eBikes are MOTORBIKES.


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## Rngspnr (Feb 15, 2016)

Streetdoctor said:


> You mean the hikers trails? Most trails were hiking trails long before they were mountain bike trails. 🤷‍♂️


I'm thinking you're probably right in most instances, but here in Austin TX almost all of the trails we ride were built by mountain bikers. There's no public land that's free use here so most of the trails start as rogue trails at green spaces like parks and eventually get OK'd for public use. E-Bikes are not allowed on any of the current "legal"trails. Unfortunately that's a hard thing to enforce. I don't see pedal assist bikes as a problem but fully electric powered bikes I do. I don't think that E-Bikes contribute to erosion anymore than regular bikes. Most of the erosion I see is caused by people braking too hard in steeps and turns. Braking bumps are erosion.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

@Amt0571. Maybe should have added flats vs. clip, presta or schraeder on those bikes.


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## Juansan (Dec 30, 2020)

Hydra Bike M.T.B.
Finally!! a clean sustainable energy source for the Motorized Trail Bike (M.T.B.) of the future "Feel the Power not the Pain, Hydra Bike"
We are about 6 months to a year away from new technology that's going to change electronic assist Mt Biking, the hydrogen fuel cell. Recently I was given the opportunity to test ride a prototype of The Hydra M.T.B. ( Motorized Trail Bike ) and here are some of the improvements over electric assist ebikes. #1 distance, the hydrogen fuel cell will easily give you 300 Kilometers at full power, lay off the pedals and you can double that. #2 power, not 250 watts or even 500 watts but a 1500 watt motor, this baby will spin the rear wheel with very little to no effort from the rider, hills what hills !! #3 The hydrogen fuel cell is a greener alternative to lithium batteries, the only emission is water, so water while you ride, creating a greener environment. #4 Best yet with a push of a button you can go from 12 speed shifting to an automatic transmission, no more shifting YEA !!!. #5 Here's the best part forget the 20 to 25 mph limit of an ebike this puppy will easily hit 50 mph, your ebike buddies will be asking you for a tow Ha Ha !!! You think ebikes are fun well this is fun times two. I'm wondering when they will get rid of pedals all together but I guess in order to call it a bike you need the freakin things otherwise it would be a Motorcycle.
The door to Mt Biking is opening even larger for those who lack the fitness or are getting up there in the years, forget the old saying "no pain no gain" its all gain from now on "Feel the Power not the Pain, Hydra Bike "
Message from the Hydra Bike corporation. "With the advent of a cleaner and more sustainable energy source, we at Hydra Bike are aggressively lobbying the government to open up more, if not all, of federally managed lands to M.T.B. bicycles. If our past President regains his rightfully earned place in government it will be a done deal, less regulation equals more fun. "Feel the Power not the Pain, Hydra Bike"
Disclaimer, is this FAKE NEWS or the future of human powered Mt. Biking ?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I know there's not a definitive answer for this, but I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are. It seems like every company thats of decent size is making ebikes now. I'm basically a grumpy 90 year old man stuck in a 35 year old body, and I dislike ebikes to the point that I don't even want to support companies that make them. I'll spare the details because it's been hashed out here 6 million times, but at this point if a company announces that they are dropping an ebike I just scratch them off my list of potential purchases. I advocate and/or protest with my pocketbook and I'm allowed to have stupid views, right?
> 
> I'm sure this will offend some people, which is fine. You don't have to agree with me, and I'm just curious about people's thoughts on one question: what do you think are the odds I'll be able to buy a bike in 5 years? Do you think most companies will have some model of ebike in their lineup, or will this (hopefully) die out in 3 seasons like fat bikes did?


eBikes will not die out 
and please note: fat bikes did not die out - I still sell everyone I get

eBikes are good for many people for many reasons
And some of those riders would not cycle if it were not for eBikes

almost all serious bike companies will have eBikes or already do

of course, we all have favorite types of bikes, favorite frame materials, etc
but welcoming all people into our passion for cycling is a good idea IMHO


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Blatant said:


> Then why are they using our trails?


Not your trails unless they're on your personal property.
Entitled much?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> but at this point if a company announces that they are dropping an ebike I just scratch them off my list of potential purchases. I advocate and/or protest with my pocketbook and I'm allowed to have stupid views, right?


MTBR openly supports e-bikes, and yet here you are.
I call BS.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> MTBR openly supports e-bikes, and yet here you are.
> I call BS.


I just deleted my account 5 minutes ago.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Amt0571 said:


> If you want to keep in good shape, buy a bicycle. If you're too lazy for that, just buy a motorbike.


Ever ride moto?

Sorry, stupid question, as it's glaringly obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about and are just spewing a bunch of crap to try to make yourself feel like you're somehow better than people you know nothing about doing things you know nothing about. 
I wonder what drives that? Hmmm...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I just deleted my account 5 minutes ago.


Exactly. Just like you'll never buy a bike from a company that sells e-bikes.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

40 years ago I bet some yahoo was going on about how he hated mountain bikes and why the hell was every bike maker adding one to their catalog. I don't think he ever threatened boycott those companies, but folks were generally more sensible back then.


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## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

Amt0571 said:


> I alread said eBikes are motorbikes. I was expecting a lot of backshlash, but so far it hasn't happened. I did my best.
> 
> Oh! and BTW: eBikes are MOTORBIKES.


quoted for truth. because ebikes are allowed, does that mean if i put a gas engine kit on a mtb than it's a gBike? same as an ebike but it's gas.


bikesdirect said:


> eBikes are good for many people for many reasons
> And some of those riders would not cycle if it were not for eBikes


they don't cycle, they ride along with the bike.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

I understand your frustration with e bikes. Personally, I have owned motorcycles and ridden them off road, and I have ridden an e bike as well (demo). As long as they stay the hell off of mtb singletrack, e bikes are fine. It's when they expect to go on the trails that are conspicuously marked "no motor vehicles" that I have a problem with them. And that's what e bikers have been asking for. The speeds even modest e bikes are capable of have no place on our non-motorized trails.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

diamondback1x9 said:


> they don't cycle, they ride along with the bike.


You've been playing this game for exactly how long now? 
And yet you feel qualified to make a statement like that?

Man, some of you people are really full of yourselves.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

twodownzero said:


> The speeds even modest e bikes are capable of have no place on our non-motorized trails.


Precisely the argument HOHs love to use against MTBs.

Pot, meet kettle.


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## lotusdriver (Sep 15, 2013)

Well, ebikes are here to stay that's for sure. l've nothing against them, different branch of the sport as already said.
Here in the U.K. the trails are thick with ebikes. There's no restrictions on their use, basically you can ride anywhere a bicycle is allowed.
Speed is limited to 15mph above that the motor cuts out.
Packs of ebikes pass me when l am climbing, l often joke that they are "cheating" and we have a few laughs as they buzz past.

l had a Cube Ebike which we bought for my wife, but l sold it because l would get back from a ride and didn't feel like l had stretched myself.
Also it was a hardtail and if you are going to buy an e-mtb it needs to be full suspension in my opinion, because of the speeds you will be riding at over rough ground.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Precisely the argument HOHs love to use against MTBs.
> 
> Pot, meet kettle.


And the compromise that existed long ago is that mountain bikes were allowed to share the trails with hikers and horses as long as there were NO MOTOR VEHICLES.

Now we're going to go back on that and have e bikes on the trails? Not if I can help it.


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## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

slapheadmofo said:


> You've been playing this game for exactly how long now?
> And yet you feel qualified to make a statement like that?
> 
> Man, some of you people are really full of yourselves.


put it this way:
older folks riding ebikes i understand: they want to get out and enjoy the outdoors but they face the possibility of straining a muscle or even breaking something.
younger folks (under 35) riding ebikes: them's are just lazy ding-dongs


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## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

if every company makes all their frames bike ebikes, i'm gonna learn to make my own. they're american made as well (if i do them)


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Now we're taking off.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

diamondback1x9 said:


> put it this way:
> older folks riding ebikes i understand: they want to get out and enjoy the outdoors but they face the possibility of straining a muscle or even breaking something.
> younger folks (under 35) riding ebikes: them's are just lazy ding-dongs


Not if said older folks take time to continue to care for themselves via time and effort, but that's just me. I'm not ready to give up on biking yet, and hop over to the e-bike world. I do have friends who thoroughly enjoy them, but not for me quite yet.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

diamondback1x9 said:


> put it this way:
> older folks riding ebikes i understand: they want to get out and enjoy the outdoors but they face the possibility of straining a muscle or even breaking something.
> younger folks (under 35) riding ebikes: them's are just lazy ding-dongs


You started riding mountain bikes what, a year ago?
If you weren't so lazy yourself, you'd have been riding a lot longer.

How often do you ride? 6 days a week? 7? Commuting on top of riding for fun? Doing a whole bunch of trail work?
If not, then you're lazy too.

There are legitimate reasons to have concerns about e-bikes on certain trails.
A bunch of MTB dorks trying to play hardo online isn't one of them.
Get over yourselves. You're not that special, and it's none of your business how others choose to spend their leisure time.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Now we're taking off.


You're welcome.


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## Amt0571 (May 22, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ever ride moto?
> 
> Sorry, stupid question, as it's glaringly obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about and are just spewing a bunch of crap to try to make yourself feel like you're somehow better than people you know nothing about doing things you know nothing about.
> I wonder what drives that? Hmmm...


Well, you know that the motorbike name comes from the words "motor" and "bicycle", right?

Maybe an eBike is a less capable motorbike, but it's a motorbike whatever you like it or not.

I don't know better than anyone and you're just free to buy whatever eBike you want and pretend that you're doing something to improve your fitness or you health. I don't care.

Anyone who has done any kind of serious (non motor assisted) cycling, has felt suffering and pain while doing a long climb at a snail pace after an exhausting day on the saddle. I understand that may not be for everyone, and I get why lots of people prefer to climb with an engine pushing them in today's world of instant gratification. Just don't pretend that you're cycling when a motor is pushing you up. That's a joke. You're riding a motorbike, and there's nothing wrong with it. Period.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

IMO, there will be small builders that will eschew e-MTB's. I don't get as much exercise riding an e-MTB, but ride MTB three times a week, so don't need the extra day(s) of e-MTB. However, an individual can get all the exercise he wants riding an e-MTB. Really most interesting aspect is the lack of vitriol and name calling this would have engendered several years ago, remember SHM?


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

I have two bikes in my stable. Neither manufacturer produces an ebike currently.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Amt0571 said:


> I don't care.


LOL...

Clearly.


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## lotusdriver (Sep 15, 2013)

l've yet to ride a motorcycle that leaves you to do some of the work and won't move unless you put some leg effort in to assist it.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

I have two bikes in my stable.
Ones of them is an E-bike.


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## Amt0571 (May 22, 2014)

lotusdriver said:


> l've yet to ride a motorcycle that leaves you to do some of the work and won't move unless you put some leg effort in to assist it.


Spinning cranks != putting effort


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Amt0571 said:


> Well, you know that the motorbike name comes from the words "motor" and "bicycle", right?
> 
> Maybe an eBike is a less capable motorbike, but it's a motorbike whatever you like it or not.
> 
> ...


I really don't care what you call it. And I'm pretty sure e-bikers know they have a motor. That's why they bought the bikes in the first place, isn't it? ?‍♂

What is ridiculous and wildly arrogant to me is when you take your singular personal motivations for riding and go ahead and assume that no one could ever have any different ones. Not to blow up your incredibly narrow perspective as to why people ride bikes, but believe it or not, a lot just ride for fun and could give a **** about grinding long boring climbs at a snails pace. Just as shockingly, not everyone is out there to win the imaginary trophy for Best Exerciser.

You say 'there's nothing wrong with that' now, but you made it clear that you feel anyone who doesn't do it the way you do it is lazy and entitled. Make up your mind. And if you think you won't be hammered after a long day of riding a motorbike, you simply don't know what you're talking about. Go hit a track and do a few hours of MX laps or some hare scramble style riding and get back to me after your body and ego get that wake up call.


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## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

slapheadmofo said:


> You started riding mountain bikes what, a year ago?
> If you weren't so lazy yourself, you'd have been riding a lot longer.
> 
> How often do you ride? 6 days a week? 7? Commuting on top of riding for fun? Doing a whole bunch of trail work?
> ...


i haven't had that long to ride, either. maybe 7 years, tops. and i started mtbing when i was about 7/8. i only started nerding out on bikes 1-1/2 years ago. it depends how technical you wanna get. 
i ride every time i get a chance. usually an hour a day, but mostly around home, as i don't have my permit yet. every ride is for fun btw.
i can't do trail work either because there is nothing to do for the person who takes me (older folks). 
i agree, there is legitimate reasons to have emtbs on trails. i probably wouldn't get one for trail work because a) i can't afford one and b) too heavy to try on jump features that you might build while doing trail work.
i apologize if these sound like excuses.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Amt0571 said:


> Anyone who has done any kind of serious (non motor assisted) cycling, has felt suffering and pain while doing a long climb at a snail pace after an exhausting day on the saddle.


I've been doing that for 30 years. I still do it, ride my bike vs E-bike 2 to 1.

Where's the line for you? Do I get to go through gate keeper?



Amt0571 said:


> Just don't pretend that you're cycling when a motor is pushing you up. That's a joke. You're riding a motorbike, and there's nothing wrong with it. Period.


At this point you're just demonstrating that you do not know what you're talking about and there's nothing wrong with it. Period.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Now we're taking off.


With all due respect, and as noted above, why would you remain active on MTBR, since MTBR supports e-bikes? Honest question...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

lotusdriver said:


> l've yet to ride a motorcycle that leaves you to do some of the work and won't move unless you put some leg effort in to assist it.


Way back in the '70s or '80s a study was done measuring all kinds of muscle & body attributes (strength, body fat, endurance, etc.) to find out definitively which sport produces the most all-around "fit" athlete.

Going in, lots of people assumed that swimmers would come out on top.

Nope. Not even close.

The "winners"? Motocross riders. 
=sParty


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

diamondback1x9 said:


> i apologize if these sound like excuses.


They are. 
Which is why you have no grounds to judge anyone else.
This sport has no shortage of judgmental wanna-be 'purist' types.
Don't add to the demographic. 🤟


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

waltaz said:


> With all due respect, and as noted above, why would you remain active on MTBR, since MTBR supports e-bikes? Honest question...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He needs the attention. It's working!


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

heh... it's like real track time in a car too..

All of this leaves me feeling like I should ride an eMTB (I've only ridden an eCity bike, which was a loaner and awesome as the person who loaned it to me was 25cm shorter...) so I can.. you know.. make an informed comment.


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## lotusdriver (Sep 15, 2013)

You can choose how much effort to put in on an ebike
As a regular MTB rider just short of 60 years old l wanted to put some effort in so used the lowest power setting.

lt was good fun ripping up the climbs, but as l said, l sold it after a while and went back to my Foxy R.

Ebikes don't seem to be outlawed so much or disliked by so many in the U.K. l wonder why that is, do you have the 15mph assistance limit for ebikes in the US?

Or do you get more of them on the trails ridden irresponsibly and spoiling it for others?

Many of my biking friends have bought ebikes leaving me riding on my own mostly now, which l am fine with, it's not much fun going out with your friends when they are all on ebikes


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

As far as I can tell.. there are no limits in the US..


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## Amt0571 (May 22, 2014)

Juansan said:


> Hydra Bike M.T.B.
> Finally!! a clean sustainable energy source for the Motorized Trail Bike (M.T.B.) of the future "Feel the Power not the Pain, Hydra Bike"
> We are about 6 months to a year away from new technology that's going to change electronic assist Mt Biking, the hydrogen fuel cell. Recently I was given the opportunity to test ride a prototype of The Hydra M.T.B. ( Motorized Trail Bike ) and here are some of the improvements over electric assist ebikes. #1 distance, the hydrogen fuel cell will easily give you 300 Kilometers at full power, lay off the pedals and you can double that. #2 power, not 250 watts or even 500 watts but a 1500 watt motor, this baby will spin the rear wheel with very little to no effort from the rider, hills what hills !! #3 The hydrogen fuel cell is a greener alternative to lithium batteries, the only emission is water, so water while you ride, creating a greener environment. #4 Best yet with a push of a button you can go from 12 speed shifting to an automatic transmission, no more shifting YEA !!!. #5 Here's the best part forget the 20 to 25 mph limit of an ebike this puppy will easily hit 50 mph, your ebike buddies will be asking you for a tow Ha Ha !!! You think ebikes are fun well this is fun times two. I'm wondering when they will get rid of pedals all together but I guess in order to call it a bike you need the freakin things otherwise it would be a Motorcycle.
> The door to Mt Biking is opening even larger for those who lack the fitness or are getting up there in the years, forget the old saying "no pain no gain" its all gain from now on "Feel the Power not the Pain, Hydra Bike "
> ...


Here you have the road version of the gBike:










It has pedals connected to the wheel. It must be a bicycle then, right?


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Small companies that can't get good oem pricing wont' make ebikes. The idea that any company is going to pass on profits because of integrity is romanticizing. Maybe we'll see some small companies capitalize on anti ebike sentiment to market their bikes, but they wont' be doing it out of integrity. They'll be doing it because they can't compete with bigger companies. It seems most have embraced motors leaving guys like me who feel ebikes strike at the heart of the sport and worse, threaten trail access, in the minority. The question is, will there be any riders left who don't shame guys like me for not embracing ebikes. I'm really surprised just how fast people have accepted motors. At first I thought motors would be the line most riders wouldn't want to cross. Boy was I wrong.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

waltaz said:


> With all due respect, and as noted above, why would you remain active on MTBR, since MTBR supports e-bikes? Honest question...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have no problem with ebikes, I just find ebike arguments to be one of the funniest things on the internet. If you read back through the thread, I was sitting on the back porch drinking whiskey last night and thought it would be funny to stir the pot. I hadn't had much to eat, went for a decent ride out at PHX Sonoran and then was drinking bourbon... I can't really be held accountable for my actions at this point.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I have no problem with ebikes, I just find ebike arguments to be one of the funniest things on the internet. If you read back through the thread, I was sitting on the back porch drinking whiskey last night and thought it would be funny to stir the pot. I hadn't had much to eat, went for a decent ride out at PHX Sonoran and then was drinking bourbon... I can't really be held accountable for my actions at this point.


SSS....

ShitStirringSteven


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

dysfunction said:


> SSS....
> 
> ShitStirringSteven


Only when bourbon is involved. I am usually a pacifist.

The hilarious thing is that this thread will continue to go on until a mod trashes it, because people don't read the whole thread. They just go to the end and throw their opinion in. 🍿


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> The question is, will there be any riders left who don't shame guys like me for not embracing ebikes. I'm really surprised just how fast people have accepted motors. At first I thought motors would be the line most riders wouldn't want to cross. Boy was I wrong.


I don't currently have an ebike nor do I plan on getting one in the forseeable future (I'm in my 50s).
That doesn't mean I'm going to get all bent out of shape and holier-than-thou any time someone else decides they like them. You don't have to 'embrace' them, and there are definitely some potential access implications involved, but thsoe usually seem like an afterthought to most people who come out strongly against them; it's usually an ego/'purist' thing.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

The access implications would be largely mitigated with some common sense applied. Which means, nah.. won't happen.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> I don't currently have an ebike nor do I plan on getting one in the forseeable future (I'm in my 50s).
> That doesn't mean I'm going to get all bent out of shape and holier-than-thou any time someone else decides they like them. You don't have to 'embrace' them, and there are definitely some potential access implications involved, but thsoe usually seem like an afterthought to most people who come out strongly against them; it's usually an ego/'purist' thing.


I don't see it as being holier than thou to feel motors have no place in mountain biking. I also don't think it's unreasonable to worry about trail access.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

slimat99 said:


> I don't see it as being holier than thou to feel motors have no place in mountain biking.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

It's ironic... These "holier than thou" purists sound weirdly similar to the hikers and equestrians whining about mountain bikes back in the early 90's.

Listening to them, you'd think it was the end of the world. We were going destroy the trails and maim horses, hikers, little kids and puppies.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

mlx john said:


> It's ironic... These "holier than thou" purists sound weirdly similar to the hikers and equestrians whining about mountain bikes back in the early 90's.


Well get ready for hikers to start rallying against mountain bikers again because of motors. YOu need to view things through the lens of other trail users. They dont' give a shi! about pedal assist vs throttle. All they know is there's a motor and that changes the game.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> I don't see it as being holier than thou to feel motors have no place in mountain biking. I also don't think it's unreasonable to worry about trail access.


E-biking isn't mountain biking; it's a different sport. Therefore, aside from trail access, nothing for you to be concerned about.

Trail access is the only aspect of e-biking where mountain bikers actually have something to possibly be concerned about. Problem is, most mountain bikers know a hell of a lot more about shopping than advocacy and access issues.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

To answer the OP: The very next time they need to do a shareholders quarterly earnings report ...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> Well get ready for hikers to start rallying against mountain bikers again because of motors. YOu need to view things through the lens of other trail users. They dont' give a shi! about pedal assist vs throttle. All they know is there's a motor and that changes the game.


Finally a valid point! And it only took 5 pages of people being butthurt because they got passed.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Amt0571 said:


> I can't get my head around why a person that has no physical issues would buy an eBike. I know 60 y/o people who ride conventional mountain bikes with zero issues, so why someone would pretend to be cycling when he is essentially riding a motorbike is beyond me.
> 
> If you want to keep in good shape, buy a bicycle. If you're too lazy for that, just buy a motorbike. After all, the first motorbike was a bicycle with an engine, so an eBike is essentially a motorbike, and denying it to make yourself feel better is a lie.
> 
> And don't start with the idea that you also do exercise on an eBike because you turn the cranks. It's a joke. I've ridden one and you can esentially turn the cranks with zero effort 90% of the time.


At least you have ridden an ebike. Some naysayers won't even get on one. It's interesting about your "effort level" comment. 
I ride in eco a majority of the time. For me, it's getting more for the energy I have (in my body, not the battery). On one ride around here, I would struggle to get two laps in. With an ebike, I can get 3. When I was racing 5 yrs back, I could get 4+ in. So, the ebike does not get me back to my racing level, it sure gets me further than without.

A comparison of effort here:





On a side note, the skill refinement on a ebike. To properly bunny hop an ebike, you have to have the movement refined and perfected. No 'getting away with it' from an analog bike because of the lower weight. If you don't perform the hop correctly, you might get that bike 4 inches of the ground.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Sparticus said:


> Way back in the '70s or '80s a study was done measuring all kinds of muscle & body attributes (strength, body fat, endurance, etc.) to find out definitively which sport produces the most all-around "fit" athlete.
> 
> Going in, lots of people assumed that swimmers would come out on top.
> 
> ...


I don't think you can compare the physical fitness aspect of riding motocross to riding an ebike. I believe the workout of motocross is controlling the weight of the bike, more with your upper body than anything. You're not going to get that with an ebike unless people start wanting heavier ebikes, which ain't gonna happen. If someone is riding an ebike on a trail that requires a lot of upper body control, I could see them getting a better upper body workout than on a mtb, though the mtb will still provide a better lower body workout and possibly cardio workout. And if the trail does not require a lot of "manhandling" of the bike, I don't think the ebike is going to provide nearly the workout of the bicycle, distance, etc being kept the same.



lotusdriver said:


> Ebikes don't seem to be outlawed so much or disliked by so many in the U.K. l wonder why that is, do you have the 15mph assistance limit for ebikes in the US?


Unfortunately, the US cut off is 20mph. 15 would have been a lot more reasonable.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> And if the trail does not require a lot of "manhandling" of the bike, I don't think the ebike is going to provide nearly the workout of the bicycle, distance, etc being kept the same.


I agree.
Those of us who live where the trails are technical are stronger, fitter and better riders than those who don't.
Smooth and open trails also encourage higher speeds, and anything over 15mph is clearly dangerous. They also appeal to people's sense of entitlement and laziness.

I think it's time to ban mountain biking anywhere except on highly technical trails. 
Everyone who rides anything else is clearly just pretending.

😝


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> No joke. I thought I was dropping a hand grenade. Apparently people are over the ebike arguments.


When I read the title, I was looking at it from a business standpoint. If a naysayer says, "My fav bike company sold out to ebikes." My response is, "If said ebike kept the company in business, are you now OK with them making ebikes?"

Bike companies have to make money. If ebikes pays the bills, it allows the company to develop other bikes that just might break even.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> I don't think you can compare the physical fitness aspect of riding motocross to riding an ebike. I believe the workout of motocross is controlling the weight of the bike, more with your upper body than anything. You're not going to get that with an ebike unless people start wanting heavier ebikes, which ain't gonna happen.


Just last week there was thread where people were saying that a 40lb bike was so heavy that if a tree were to fall across the trail, they would have to turn around and go home because they couldn't lift the bike over it.

The reason that motocross was brought up was not to make a direct comparison to e-bikes. 
It was because of clueless posters thinking that riding a 'motorbike' (their term) means there's no effort. 
Which is of course ridiculous. Just people spouting off over stuff they don't know anything about. (And FWIW, your entire body will get smoked riding moto, not just the upper half.)


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

lotusdriver said:


> Ebikes don't seem to be outlawed so much or disliked by so many in the U.K. l wonder why that is, do you have the 15mph assistance limit for ebikes in the US?





chazpat said:


> Unfortunately, the US cut off is 20mph. 15 would have been a lot more reasonable.


If 15 mph would get ebikes allowed on all trail analog bikes are allowed, I'd be fine with 15 mph in the US.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> Just last week there was thread where people were saying that a 40lb bike was so heavy that if a tree were to fall across the trail, they would have to turn around and go home because they couldn't lift the bike over it.


This is actually a fact.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

slimat99 said:


> Well get ready for hikers to start rallying against mountain bikers again because of motors. YOu need to view things through the lens of other trail users. They dont' give a shi! about pedal assist vs throttle. All they know is there's a motor and that changes the game.


I've seen editorials, articles from people arguing that E-bikes should not be allowed access to trails that mountain bikes use. People seem to be able to distinguish between the two. I have yet to see any evidence of trail closures or denied access to mountain bikes in general specifically because of E-bikes.

How long have I been hearing "get ready for blah blah blah" I'm still waiting


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Amt0571 said:


> Here you have the road version of the gBike:
> 
> View attachment 1921080
> 
> ...


Apparently you don't know that about 25 states have adopted the "Class" system for e-bikes. Those falling within the guidelines are defines as bikes BY STATE LAW!


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## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

I passed an ebike a few days back on this long climb, I had no idea it was an ebike until I was passing. Worked and worked to catch this guy, when I went by he had a cigarette hanging out of his mouth and a beer can in the water bottle cage. Was in his 20's, i thought now there is a reason for an ebike!


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

mlx john said:


> I've seen editorials, articles from people arguing that E-bikes should not be allowed access to trails that mountain bikes use. People seem to be able to distinguish between the two. I have yet to see any evidence of trail closures or denied access to mountain bikes in general specifically because of E-bikes.
> 
> How long have I been hearing "get ready for blah blah blah" I'm still waiting


The facts are ebikes have just barely started to hit the trails. We'll see the effects in the years to come. I've seen a few poachers already. I'm sure I'll see 2x that this year, and 2x again.... Ebikes are blowing up, we haven't seen shi! yet. You're the one jumping the gun on trail access issues.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I have no problem with ebikes, I just find ebike arguments to be one of the funniest things on the internet. If you read back through the thread, I was sitting on the back porch drinking whiskey last night and thought it would be funny to stir the pot. I hadn't had much to eat, went for a decent ride out at PHX Sonoran and then was drinking bourbon... I can't really be held accountable for my actions at this point.


This answer, I fully understand!! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> The facts are ebikes have just barely started to hit the trails. We'll see the effects in the years to come. I've seen a few poachers already. I'm sure I'll see 2x that this year, and 2x again....


Welcome back to the e-bike subforum, circa 2015.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

One of the early hater-arguments about e-MTB was it would increase the number of riders on the trails and lead to mountain bikes being excluded. Well, in socal the pandemic has increased the number of riders markedly (qualitatively by a factor of 3+ based on how crowded some trails have become). Guess what? Not a word about exclusion.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

slimat99 said:


> The facts are ebikes have just barely started to hit the trails. We'll see the effects in the years to come. I've seen a few poachers already. I'm sure I'll see 2x that this year, and 2x again.... Ebikes are blowing up, we haven't seen shi! yet. You're the one jumping the gun on trail access issues.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

The use of ebikes, where they are expressly forbidden, is what can cause access issues.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Amt0571 said:


> I alread said eBikes are motorbikes. I was expecting a lot of backshlash, but so far it hasn't happened. I did my best.
> 
> Oh! and BTW: eBikes are MOTORBIKES.


OMG you are such a NIMBY Karen.

Is that good backlash?


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## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

slapheadmofo said:


> E-biking isn't mountain biking; it's a different sport. Therefore, aside from trail access, nothing for you to be concerned about.


my point exactly. i don't mind people riding ebikes. what bothers me is people who ride ebikes on mtb trails and claim they are mountain biking.


slapheadmofo said:


> Just last week there was thread where people were saying that a 40lb bike was so heavy that if a tree were to fall across the trail, they would have to turn around and go home because they couldn't lift the bike over it.


quoted for truth lol


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Welcome back to the e-bike subforum, circa 2015.


haha. Yes but that's my point. Trail access has been talked about before the first ebike was ever produced. While they've been a thing for years, they haven't hit the trails in numbers big enough to see their impacts. That's all going to change real soon.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

diamondback1x9 said:


> my point exactly. i don't mind people riding ebikes. what bothers me is people who ride ebikes on mtb trails and claim they are mountain biking.


I've always said I have no problems sharing most trails with Class 1 e-bikes, as long as land managers maintain a clear distinction on paper between mountain bike and e-bikes when it comes to any potential access issues. E-bikes don't bother me, but if they become any sort of an issue for a land manager, I also don't want to be held responsible for a distinctly separate user group. That's where things get tricky.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I'd totally take one and ride the hill by my house. It'd be awesome! Too bad I don't have one.. and they're banned anyway.


Mountain bikers are generally their own worst enemy when it comes to access. Why on earth would that change based on having assisted movement.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

mlx john said:


>


Check ya later!

I should say check back in a few years and let's talk. Blowing off trail access issue because we haven't seen anything yet is like blowing off Ai because the terminator hasn't killed your unborn son yet. It's coming!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> I should say check back in a few years and let's talk. Blowing off trail access issue because we haven't seen anything yet is like blowing off Ai because the terminator hasn't killed your unborn son yet. It's coming!


Sounds a whole lot like the HOHs I had to deal with when getting MTB trails approved.
They were 1,000% positive the sky would fall. Children would be run down left and right, thousands would flock to this new 'racetrack' and destroy a previously 'pristine environment' and the resulting erosion and habitat damage would render the woods and waterways lifeless. The handwringing was epic. LOL!

10-12 years down the road now and of course it was just a bunch of Chicken Little BS.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

dysfunction said:


> The use of ebikes, where they are expressly forbidden, is what can cause access issues.


Irresponsible behavior on the trails is what causes access issues. An ebike might be a more powerful tool to misbehave with but not much more than that. Here we have a new batch of coviduro riders that are cutting trees and braiding trails and generally acting like a bunch of entitled brats and land managers are starting to ask questions, but they're mostly not on ebikes.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

MOJO K said:


> Irresponsible behavior on the trails is what causes access issues. An ebike might be a more powerful tool to misbehave with but not much more than that. Here we have a new batch of coviduro riders that are cutting trees and braiding trails and generally acting like a bunch of entitled brats and land managers are starting to ask questions, but they're mostly not on ebikes.


This thread is about eBikes 

But you are completely correct. Idiots rushing up behind equestrians, leaving trash all over the place, wildcatting bypasses because they can't ride the feature, casual trails, I got a whole list of things that can (and DO) cause problems. I forgot about almost hitting hikers.. that's a great one, especially when I've heard the 'mountain biker' tell the hiker to go F off as a result.

Riding where you're not supposed to is a huge one.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

fos'l said:


> One of the early hater-arguments about e-MTB was it would increase the number of riders on the trails and lead to mountain bikes being excluded. Well, in socal the pandemic has increased the number of riders markedly (qualitatively by a factor of 3+ based on how crowded some trails have become). Guess what? Not a word about exclusion.


Pandemics should be banned. 
=sParty


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MOJO K said:


> Irresponsible behavior on the trails is what causes access issues. An ebike might be a more powerful tool to misbehave with but not much more than that. Here we have a new batch of coviduro riders that are cutting trees and braiding trails and generally acting like a bunch of entitled brats and land managers are starting to ask questions, but they're mostly not on ebikes.


Yup, it's not the tool. 
My kid and his buddies ride the same general areas where we MTB on their 30,000+ watt machines and they don't cause any problems with the trails.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

I thought this was interesting

NEMBA's Position Statement on eMTBs


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MOJO K said:


> I thought this was interesting
> 
> NEMBA's Position Statement on eMTBs


The 'purists' lost their **** about that.
I had quite a bit of fun with them on the local NEMBA pages.
So many entitled dorks talking like they owned the woods because they bought some socks and a headcap. LOL!


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## JulioBTLL (Dec 12, 2008)

'sI'm in my late 40's, been riding since 90's, and refusing to do my work so I can stay up all night and panic to finish a project. Also, I only read the first post and last post #108 and here are my informed comment....

The top 3 purchases of my life are
1) First Whitewater kayak-- Perception dancer 
2) The margarita I bought when I first met my wife- Fishbowl with cheap tequila. 
3) Trek Rail 7

Due to hip issues, I was considering selling my bikes. Big climbs led to days of pain and I'd be so wrecked at the top the downhill became an out of control mess. On a lark, I walked into a trek dealership, test rode for 2 minutes on a steep climb and walked out $6000 poorer. 

Now I can ride again. Anyone that says this isn't riding is a moran.

To those that fret and clutch their pearls about losing trail access, I don't care. For the past 30 years I've been poaching trails all over the United States and only a few problems with Johnny Law. My general rule is if it says "no bikes", that's the best trail to take. 

Get an E-Bike and hit the jumps on the up hill when passing people.


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## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

JulioBTLL said:


> To those that fret and clutch their pearls about losing trail access, I don't care. For the past 30 years I've been poaching trails all over the United States and only a few problems with Johnny Law. My general rule is if it says "no bikes", that's the best trail to take.


which is exactly why we're worried about trail access.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

diamondback1x9 said:


> which is exactly why we're worried about trail access.


Has nothing to do with ebikes, but everything to do with why I just gave up on any advocacy.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

JulioBTLL said:


> To those that fret and clutch their pearls about losing trail access, I don't care. For the past 30 years I've been poaching trails all over the United States and only a few problems with Johnny Law. My general rule is if it says "no bikes", that's the best trail to take.
> 
> Get an E-Bike and hit the jumps on the up hill when passing people.


You're the perfect argument against e-bikes, and the kind of tool that makes reasonable people rethink supporting them. Congrats on that.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Juansan said:


> Hydra Bike M.T.B.
> Finally!! a clean sustainable energy source for the Motorized Trail Bike (M.T.B.) of the future "Feel the Power not the Pain, Hydra Bike"
> We are about 6 months to a year away from new technology that's going to change electronic assist Mt Biking, the hydrogen fuel cell. Recently I was given the opportunity to test ride a prototype of The Hydra M.T.B. ( Motorized Trail Bike ) and here are some of the improvements over electric assist ebikes. #1 distance, the hydrogen fuel cell will easily give you 300 Kilometers at full power, lay off the pedals and you can double that. #2 power, not 250 watts or even 500 watts but a 1500 watt motor, this baby will spin the rear wheel with very little to no effort from the rider, hills what hills !! #3 The hydrogen fuel cell is a greener alternative to lithium batteries, the only emission is water, so water while you ride, creating a greener environment. #4 Best yet with a push of a button you can go from 12 speed shifting to an automatic transmission, no more shifting YEA !!!. #5 Here's the best part forget the 20 to 25 mph limit of an ebike this puppy will easily hit 50 mph, your ebike buddies will be asking you for a tow Ha Ha !!! You think ebikes are fun well this is fun times two. I'm wondering when they will get rid of pedals all together but I guess in order to call it a bike you need the freakin things otherwise it would be a Motorcycle.
> The door to Mt Biking is opening even larger for those who lack the fitness or are getting up there in the years, forget the old saying "no pain no gain" its all gain from now on "Feel the Power not the Pain, Hydra Bike "
> ...


I know this is fake news but.................
I think the possibilities are there for such a bike. I have seen the hydrogen powered cars increase around here a lot.
In the end, this would likely end up in the moto market vs the emtb market. I've seen moto guys ride for a while, come back to the truck, get gas and then ride more. Just replace the "get gas" with swap hydrogen cells.

For emtb, the improvement in battery tech is going to increase our range and decrease weight. Some of the solid state battery tech I have been hearing about is promising. QuantumScape has some new single layer tech that charges to 80 % in 15 minutes.


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## JulioBTLL (Dec 12, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> You're the perfect argument against e-bikes, and the kind of tool that makes reasonable people rethink supporting them. Congrats on that.


I agree that I'm a tool, it doesn't change the fact there is no difference between a mtb and e-mtb poaching a trail. When I pass a rider going uphill on a poached trail, both of us are breaking the law. While both of us are going the same speed downhill, the trail is still getting poached like a rhino.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Blatant said:


> Then why are they using our trails?


Hikers say the same thing
Oh
So do equestrians

If you own a big a$$ ranch in TX that has mtb (like Reveille Peak Ranch) then you can say "our" or "my." Public trails belong to everyone, even the emtb crowd (if allowed by the land managers)


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I'm basically a grumpy 90 year old... what do you think are the odds I'll be able to buy a bike in 5 years?


Your odds are not good that you'll even be around to buy a bike in 60 months. Covid and too many birthdays may prevent you from achieving 95 trips around the sun.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

JulioBTLL said:


> Now I can ride again. Anyone that says this isn't riding is a moran.
> 
> To those that fret and clutch their pearls about losing trail access, I don't care. For the past 30 years I've been poaching trails all over the United States and only a few problems with Johnny Law. My general rule is if it says "no bikes", that's the best trail to take.
> 
> Get an E-Bike and hit the jumps on the up hill when passing people.


I thought about an ebike but decided it was NOT the sport that I was in love with. I went with new hips and a plus bike conversion of my SC Bantam. My general rule is that if there are any signs at all it's not a place I want to be.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> but at this point if a company announces that they are dropping an ebike I just scratch them off my list of potential purchases. I advocate and/or protest with my pocketbook and I'm allowed to have stupid views, right?


Vote with your pocketbook even if you have stupid views. people will listen when that ebike Yeti started to see only moves 200 units in a year. There will not be a next year's model.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

diamondback1x9 said:


> quoted for truth. because ebikes are allowed, does that mean if i put a gas engine kit on a mtb than it's a gBike? same as an ebike but it's gas.
> 
> they don't cycle, they ride along with the bike.


Isn't that what DH and park riders do at various bike parks? Is shuttling or lift access not mtb? Maybe like one of those glider planes is not really flying a plane....


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## JulioBTLL (Dec 12, 2008)

MOJO K said:


> I thought about an ebike but decided it was NOT the sport that I was in love with. I went with new hips and a plus bike conversion of my SC Bantam. My general rule is that if there are any signs at all it's not a place I want to be.


I see no difference between the mtb and e-mtb except I can do climbs again. Is there a downhill you miss because the climb is too brutal on your body? Do you find yourself avoiding trails because of the climb?

I went from racing Downieville, with multiple training rides of the climb every summer to barely able to keep up with my son on a 500 ft climb. Doc says I should get new hip, but I've been riding a month E-mtb and ALL THE PAIN IS GONE! I'm not exaggerating when I say E-mtb has changed my life. Over the years, looking at threads about e-bikers and silently judging these riders while I hike in pain to careen out of control on my favorite trails. What a waste of precious time.

To all you silent lurker riders out there, ignore these fools clutching their pearls about e-mtb's. You do not need to suffer because others think that pain is part of joy.


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## GKelley (Sep 4, 2018)

There's a reason why they're giving e-bikes to all the major youtubers to show off. It's just another technology to try and convince us we need it.

Personally, I don't plan on ever purchasing an e-bike until my knees force me to. Hopefully by then, prices will be more realistic and the trails in my area will actually allow them.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

Wow, it's almost like you just copy pasted sParty's rant about geared bikes. You could have shown a little more creativity.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

JulioBTLL said:


> I see no difference between the mtb and e-mtb except I can do climbs again. Is there a downhill you miss because the climb is too brutal on your body? Do you find yourself avoiding trails because of the climb?


My injuries might have been a little more advanced than that by the time I was able to get the work done, but that's a different story.

If riding an ebike on your trails where you live does it for you, good for you.

I built my trails where I live specifically to challenge myself...power, balance, timing. Exertion and rhythm is my thing and an ebike isn't filling that gap. Sometimes, for some people, it isn't the same thing. For what it's worth, riding excavated trails on modern geometry bikes isn't much like the kind of mountain biking I love either.

I will add that, as a guy with hand built trails on private land, I F***ing hate poachers.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

diamondback1x9 said:


> they don't cycle, they ride along with the bike.


Sorry
but you do not seem to understand eBikes
at least the ones without throttle

many tests show riders improving fitness level more with eBikes than with acoustic bikes

after I had about 1000 miles on an eBike
I figured out why this is 
Had not given it much thought 
but the simple reason is the same reason I used to ride rollers and track bikes


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Ogre said:


> Wow, it's almost like you just copy pasted sParty's rant about geared bikes. You could have shown a little more creativity.


He said in his post that he was hoping for an ebike version of his post. I figured I would oblige.

BTW I have never claimed to be creative or intelligent.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> Sorry
> but you do not seem to understand eBikes
> at least the ones without throttle
> 
> ...


Because any time your feet are on the pedals, your feet are on the pedals?


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## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

bikesdirect said:


> Sorry
> but you do not seem to understand eBikes
> at least the ones without throttle
> 
> ...


they got fitter from liting a 40-50lb beast on to their rack/truck tailgate/van or whatever they use to transport their bikes.
what is your reason tho? curious.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

MOJO K said:


> Because time any time your feet are on the pedals, your feet are on the pedals?


I'm not sure about any claims that eBikes make you more fit than regular bikes, but the folks I know who ride e bikes ride them more and longer than they would acoustic bikes. This is doubly true with the less fit crowd where the impacts of any physical activity have huge benefits.

Just because it takes less effort to pedal doesn't mean the ride is free of effort.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

How about those of us that ride mtb and roads? I do. Got passed by an ebike on the road. I think it was an eMTB with slicks on. Wow.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Blatant said:


> I have two bikes in my stable. Neither manufacturer produces an ebike currently.


If one of the brands did you'd immediately sell that brand in your bike collection


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

mlx john said:


> I have two bikes in my stable.
> Ones of them is an E-bike.


I have 2 bikes in my stable
An ebike (YT Decoy)
and a road bike. (cdale CAAD)

That is all


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## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

bikesdirect said:


> Sorry
> but you do not seem to understand eBikes
> at least the ones without throttle
> 
> ...


Anyone who uses the term acoustic bike is a full on retard


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

Many (most?) of our local trails are essentially laid out so you either shuttle them, or you climb a (literal) mountain then descend it. If you ride Goodman trail, you climb-essentially straight up-2,500', then descend it. Alpine, it's more like 3,500 feet. Lawler, I think similar. Moon Mountain, Middle Fork? Definitely more than 3,500 feet.

The overwhelming majority of people drive a truck up to the top of these trails and descend them on their bikes.

I'd far far rather people rode these trails on e bikes rather than shuttling them (or up the road then down the trail). It's healthier, burns fewer dinosaurs, puts less crap in the air, and puts less burden on the forest service roads. There are a fair number of local loops which are simply _too damned big_ to ride regularly without some kind of assist. I've done some fan-farging-tastic routes with shuttle assist that I would absolutely love to e bike.

Everyone has different trail setups, if I lived in some dense urban area where bikes were rubbing elbows with hikers and each other all day long, I might feel differently, but here I can see the lure of the electric boogaloo. I love riding miles and miles on my acoustic bike... but I also fully expect to be on an ebike for some routes before too long myself.


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## downcountry (Apr 27, 2019)

Amt0571 said:


> Well, you know that the motorbike name comes from the words "motor" and "bicycle", right?
> 
> Maybe an eBike is a less capable motorbike, but it's a motorbike whatever you like it or not.
> 
> ...


...the same, lame, logic no doubt used 
years ago by the "purists " when cassettes and derailleurs first appeared.
I've owned over a dozen actual 
"motor bikes " over the years, and not a 
dang one of them had pedals to make them go, and every dang one of them had a throttle.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

I used to ride an acoustic bike, until it got out of tune. Had to switch to electric with a built in auto-tuner.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

*At max assist, 0.3 HP*. Before you compare ebikes to motorcycles, let that number sink in.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

roughster said:


> *At max assist, 0.3 HP*. Before you compare ebikes to motorcycles, let that number sink in.


You ever ridden a Kawasaki Ninja 250?


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

I went from racing Downieville, with multiple training rides of the climb every summer to barely able to keep up with my son on a 500 ft climb. Doc says I should get new hip, but I've been riding a month E-mtb and ALL THE PAIN IS GONE! I'm not exaggerating when I say E-mtb has changed my life. Over the years, looking at threads about e-bikers and silently judging these riders while I hike in pain to careen out of control on my favorite trails. What a waste of precious time.

To all you silent lurker riders out there, ignore these fools clutching their pearls about e-mtb's. You do not need to suffer because others think that pain is part of joy.
[/QUOTE]

What I dont' understand is how a handicapped person like yourself can ride the DH but can't climb? I find the DH more abusive on my body than spinning up the climbs.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

roughster said:


> *At max assist, 0.3 HP*. Before you compare ebikes to motorcycles, let that number sink in.


Most people do not compared ebikes to motorbikes because of power output. They compare them to motorbikes because ebikes are bikes with motors.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Assuming we're talking about class 1 ebikes, the main differences from normal bikes I see are increased trail wear (mostly because you can do more laps), and potential conflict with other user groups on climbing trails (or if your area doesn't have climbing trails, then the multi-directional trails that people use to climb/return for another lap). The 250w is a big boost, but realistically "most" users would even have an augmented power output less than that of most/many professional athletes. So we're really not going up to dirt bike levels of power (even my old XR200 as a kid had the power of 40 ebikes).

Because like others have mentioned, many mountain bikers seem to think of ebikes as some sort of variation of a "self shuttle" type of situation. Running the gamut from "I can finally do shuttle laps by myself" down to "I can ride the climb trail twice, instead of once". And neither of those really bother me personally, conceptually.

On a normal downhill type descent that we have in my area (PNW), you're usually going to be at, or near the limit of the top speed of an ebike (and/or in a situation where you wouldn't usually be trying to pedal anyway). So I don't personally see any problem with them going downhill. As they're basically just a few lbs heavier than a normal bike at that point in time.

Where I see the main problem is conflict on the climbs. Like where you end up with someone going *up *a multi-directional/multi-user trail at 20mph. Even passing other mountain bikers on biking only/directional climb trails at that speed is going to be a problem when you're going that fast. Simply because no one really expects anyone to be coming up the trail that fast at them/coming up behind them like that, and no one likes people flying past their elbows without warning. The speed differential on the climbs lets oblivious people do more dangerous/dumb stuff, and jerks be even more "jerky", which I think is where a lot of the negatives come from.

On the other hand, if emtb groups made their own climb trails, potentially taking advantage of the steeper gradients that most cyclists couldn't sustain/find enjoyable, I think that could be a great solution. Plus of course helping with trail maintenance.

And as for if you get to exercise on them, I think so far the evidence from studies is that its in the same category of workout intensity, its just people put more mileage on ebikes (going back to increased wear and tear on the trails). But for me, they aren't legal where I live (other than Darrington IIRC), so I haven't really given them a second thought (although I see tons of them on the local trails either way :/).


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> You ever ridden a Kawasaki Ninja 250?


Yes. Nothing remotely similar.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

slimat99 said:


> Most people do not compared ebikes to motorbikes because of power output. They compare them to motorbikes because ebikes are bikes with motors.


Actually the state of CA differs with you. They are by legal definition NOT motorbikes. They are "electric bicycles".

*AB1096

Bill Text - AB-1096 Vehicles: electric bicycles.*

Since this is in the General forum, I will defer to ebike riders of other states to defend their states definition. Here in CA, we good


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

ocnLogan said:


> ... On the other hand, if emtb groups made their own climb trails, potentially taking advantage of the steeper gradients that most cyclists couldn't sustain/find enjoyable, I think that could be a great solution. Plus of course helping with trail maintenance. ...


Cool, since I build all the trails locally, uphill, downhill, connectors, hiking, you name it, and I primarily ride ebike, we are all good around here!


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

roughster said:


> Yes. Nothing remotely similar.


They're literally the exact same.


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## juan_speeder (May 11, 2008)

Arm&Hammer said:


> They are not allowed on all trails, why are Hikers and Equestrians?
> 
> Mountain biking is self powered, that is it. Adding a motor changes the sport, are there similarities, yes - just like moto has similar things as well. You all can argue a million times it the same thing, but is it not, quite trying to justify your use of an ebike. If you want one, great. I have no problem with them, also have no problem with many other recreations that people do, but they are not the same.


I don't know how many tens of ebikes I've come across, but they all just seemed to be mountain biking, and doing it more slowly than myself on my regular ol' bike.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

ocnLogan said:


> Where I see the main problem is conflict on the climbs. Like where you end up with someone going *up *a multi-directional/multi-user trail at 20mph. Even passing other mountain bikers on biking only/directional climb trails at that speed is going to be a problem when you're going that fast. Simply because no one really expects anyone to be coming up the trail that fast at them/coming up behind them like that, and no one likes people flying past their elbows without warning. The speed differential on the climbs lets oblivious people do more dangerous/dumb stuff, and jerks be even more "jerky", which I think is where a lot of the negatives come from.


Yeah, I think this is a potential issue myself. Though having seen them in practice, they simply don't have the power to go anywhere near 20MPH consistently uphill. At least not on the trails I ride. Wouldn't hurt to make at least some of them one way.

Now Bend... I think they should probably stay off the table for the busier trails in Bend because I can easily see guys zipping up and down at 20MPH the 3% grade trails they have at Phils. I'm often doing 8-10MPH on the climbs myself without E assist. Lots of potential issues on those trails. Plus they are so damned easy to climb.


----------



## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

To all the ebikers in this thread, have you ever considered just not skipping leg day at the gym so you can go back to riding a real bike? Maybe try building your leg muscle so you don't have to rely on an engine to pedal your bike for you?


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

roughster said:


> Actually the state of CA differs with you. They are by legal definition NOT motorbikes. They are "electric bicycles".
> 
> *AB1096
> 
> ...


Yes lobbying works.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> They're literally the exact same.


Sort of like the way that 1 is exactly the same as 200 right?


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> They're literally the exact same.


Ignorance must be bliss!


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

roughster said:


> Cool, since I build all the trails locally, uphill, downhill, connectors, hiking, you name it, and I primarily ride ebike, we are all good around here!


Your area now has separate mtb, and emtb climbing trails?

If so, thats super interesting. How has it worked so far?

What I was thinking is if ebikes could take a more direct/steeper route up a climb, that usually you'd have to build more switchbacks into, that would be a motivator for ebikers to take that climb trail instead of taking the "regular" climb trail (because it would be more interesting/faster to the top). And most non crazy normal bikers wouldn't be trying to climb a long climb with a ~20% grade, so they'd self select the "easier" regular climb trail, and then we'd have less conflict.

But if you've already done it, you're ahead of the game .

Also, I've read lots of stuff on ebikes being great for trail building, and I'm 100% on board with that. So nice work there.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> To all the ebikers in this thread, have you ever considered just not skipping leg day at the gym so you can go back to riding a real bike? Maybe try building your leg muscle so you don't have to rely on an engine to pedal your bike for you?


I know this is a hard concept here... try stretching your brain a little.

If I buy an ebike, it's because I want to ride more and be in a car less, not because I want to work less. I know it's tough to consider that there might be _more than one reason to own a thing_, by try it for a change. Just stretch that brain a little.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Ebikers help build trails but only with motorized shovels and picks.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

ocnLogan said:


> Your area now has separate mtb, and emtb climbing trails?
> 
> If so, thats super interesting. How has it worked so far?
> 
> ...


Actually, what I call "ebike bypasses" are pretty new for this season but they have been working out pretty well. The other piece is most of the regulars in this system ride ebikes, as well including myself the builder. Kind of took the wind out of the anti-e-bikers right away when they realized, without the ebikes, there would be no trails.


----------



## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

roughster said:


> Ignorance must be bliss!





Ogre said:


> I know this is a hard concept here... try stretching your brain a little.
> 
> If I buy an ebike, it's because I want to ride more and be in a car less, not because I want to work less. I know it's tough to consider that there might be _more than one reason to own a thing_, by try it for a change. Just stretch that brain a little.


Ebikes = big brain


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Ebikes = big brain


We know you're trolling, and I guess that can be fun for a few mins, but excessive internet trolling has been linked to mental disorders and other undesirable behaviors like psychopathy, sadism, and narcissism. Think I am making it up?

What Makes Internet Trolls Tick?


----------



## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Ogre said:


> I know this is a hard concept here... try stretching your brain a little.
> 
> If I buy an ebike, it's because I want to ride more and be in a car less, not because I want to work less. I know it's tough to consider that there might be _more than one reason to own a thing_, by try it for a change. Just stretch that brain a little.


This is the best comment on this thread. I bought an ebike recently and I can tell you, you still have to work unless you get one of those big fat ones. My Rise is still a good workout, but you can control your effort if you're on a multi-day trip at altitude.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Ebikers help build trails but only with motorized shovels and picks.


I know (think?) you're joking some.

But E chainsaws... Those could be great for trail maintenance.

And, I might be coming off as "pro" ebike, but at least I don't think I am.

They aren't legal where I live, so I've really not thought much about them. Like you, I see them all over, and at this point do catch myself giving them shade for it (again, going back to the "they're expressly illegal here reason). I am not looking for an ebike.

Would I consider one in the future? Maybe. It would be dependent on if, if I can get a demo on one and see if it feels weird as all getout/or not, if I don't stay in as good of health as I hope for, and if prices and weight come down closer to regular bikes.

And wayyy back to your main point. I'm looking/lusting for a Banshee frame right now. I'd bet lots of builders like them will say "pure" for the forseeable future (although, I guess Privateer did just drop an ebike, so maybe I don't know anything :/).


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

roughster said:


> We know you're trolling, and I guess that can be fun for a few mins, but excessive internet trolling has been linked to mental disorders and other undesirable behaviors like psychopathy, sadism, and narcissism. Think I am making it up?
> 
> What Makes Internet Trolls Tick?


Feel free to look through my post history. I don't have a history of trolling. At all.

I'm just having some fun with you guys. Don't sweat it.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

roughster said:


> Actually, what I call "ebike bypasses" are pretty new for this season but they have been working out pretty well. The other piece is most of the regulars in this system ride ebikes, as well including myself the builder. Kind of took the wind out of the anti-e-bikers right away when they realized, without the ebikes, there would be no trails.


This is increasingly true here. Most of the most active trail crew members have ebikes they use both to assist with trail work and to ride the trails they help build. sParty has been a huge part of PNW/ Oakridge trail building for decades as well, and he's going e bike too.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ogre said:


> Sort of like the way that 1 is exactly the same as 200 right?


I think he means that they top out around 20mph.
Those things are dogs.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

ocnLogan said:


> I know (think?) you're joking some.
> 
> But E chainsaws... Those could be great for trail maintenance.


They are in fact quite good for trail maintenance. It's my tool of choice where I can use it (which will soon be more places).


----------



## JulioBTLL (Dec 12, 2008)

slimat99 said:


> I went from racing Downieville, with multiple training rides of the climb every summer to barely able to keep up with my son on a 500 ft climb. Doc says I should get new hip, but I've been riding a month E-mtb and ALL THE PAIN IS GONE! I'm not exaggerating when I say E-mtb has changed my life. Over the years, looking at threads about e-bikers and silently judging these riders while I hike in pain to careen out of control on my favorite trails. What a waste of precious time.
> 
> To all you silent lurker riders out there, ignore these fools clutching their pearls about e-mtb's. You do not need to suffer because others think that pain is part of joy.


What I dont' understand is how a handicapped person like yourself can ride the DH but can't climb? I find the DH more abusive on my body than spinning up the climbs.
[/QUOTE]

I agree, It doesn't make sense me. When I am climbing hills with high torque with regular bike, it feels as if my femur head is ripping out of socket. When I stand for the downhill, everything feels great. My theory is the ebike allows me to reduce the power from the one leg and reducing the strain on soft tissue of the hip region. The surrounding muscles don't get fatigued and can keep everything working appropriately for much longer. The body does get trashed keeping the 50lb bike under control, but the after affects feel like a hard day of whitewater kayaking than the vision quest rides of old.


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## juan_speeder (May 11, 2008)

roughster said:


> To answer the OP: The very next time they need to do a shareholders quarterly earnings report ...


You'd be surprised how few companies in the mountain bike domain are publicly traded. I'd be surprised if it's more that 10, and 2 of those do other things too - Shimano and Fox Shox.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

juan_speeder said:


> You'd be surprised how few companies in the mountain bike domain are publicly traded. I'd be surprised if it's more that 10, and 2 of those do other things too - Shimano and Fox Shox.


Not necessarily the exact point I was making. Sure Giant and Trek are public. The others all have company pressure and obligations to make a profit and continue to grow revenue. That's pretty much uniform for all companies private or public. Instead of presenting to stockholders, they will just be presenting to ECs, BODs and/or Owners directly explaining why they are missing out on what is clearly the trend and most probably soon (2030'ish) the majority market share.

E-Bike Sales To Grow From 3.7 Million To 17 Million Per Year By 2030, Forecast Industry Experts


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

diamondback1x9 said:


> they got fitter from liting a 40-50lb beast on to their rack/truck tailgate/van or whatever they use to transport their bikes.
> what is your reason tho? curious.


The reason I feel is the freewheel

when you ride a true track bike you must pedal
when you ride rollers if you stop pedaling you fall off
an eBike trains riders mentally to not coast, because the boost turns off as soon as you stop pedaling

thats the only reason I can think of that studies have shown improved fitness increase from eBike riding over acoustic bike riding

this is my guess; but I am open to other theories

but back in the old days , the thought was there are three ways to train
1) ride with racers and try to keep up
2) ride a track bike
3) ride rollers

I preferred #2 and #3 - LOL


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

People get more fit and become better riders in general on ebikes for one simple reason: shots on goal.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ogre said:


> Many (most?) of our local trails are essentially laid out so you either shuttle them, or you climb a (literal) mountain then descend it. If you ride Goodman trail, you climb-essentially straight up-2,500', then descend it. Alpine, it's more like 3,500 feet. Lawler, I think similar. Moon Mountain, Middle Fork? Definitely more than 3,500 feet.
> 
> The overwhelming majority of people drive a truck up to the top of these trails and descend them on their bikes.
> 
> ...


Agreed, except for the "acoustic" bike part.

*acoustic*
adjective
acous·tic | \ ə-ˈkü-stik \
*Definition of acoustic*

1*: *of or relating to the sense or organs of hearing, to sound, or to the science of sound
acoustic apparatus of the ear
acoustic energy: such as
a*: *deadening or absorbing sound acoustic tile
b*: *operated by or utilizing sound waves
2*: *of, relating to, or being a musical instrument whose sound is not electronically modified

None of my bikes are operated by sound waves.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I guess it's like Dylan going electric at Newport


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

chazpat said:


> 2*: *of, relating to, or being a musical instrument whose sound is not electronically modified


The clicks and whirrs of chain over drive train and the buzz of the derailleur is music to my ears. The sound of tires on dirt is sheer bliss.

Maybe your don't call it music...


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

downcountry said:


> ...the same, lame, logic no doubt used
> years ago by the "purists " when cassettes and derailleurs first appeared.
> I've owned over a dozen actual
> "motor bikes " over the years, and not a
> dang one of them had pedals to make them go, and every dang one of them had a throttle.


Careful, there are still folks who occasionally pop up claiming 3x8 is better than 1x drivetrains. You might evoke them.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

BmanInTheD said:


> This is the best comment on this thread. I bought an ebike recently and I can tell you, you still have to work unless you get one of those big fat ones. My Rise is still a good workout, but you can control your effort if you're on a multi-day trip at altitude.


I agree with you, re the comment. And how funny re your Rise...I've got one on order, with an April due date! And I have zero need for one...I just want to have more fun! I can hammer all day (and night) and beat myself up on my SS or SB100...the Rise is for doing laps and having FUN!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

Ebikes sound great for all places where motorized access is already allowed!


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

BmanInTheD said:


> ...you still have to work unless you get one of those big fat ones...


My big fat one was a blast this winter. It wasn't too bad a work out. I supplemented riding it with some regular Zwifting and a little lifting. It was a fun combo. Best winter by far that I have had in recent years.

That said, it's definitely a different kind of fun than when riding one of my non e-bikes. They are completely different beasts. Both are fun, but in different ways. Not a lot of jacked up, endorphin charged fist pumping going on at summits with the e-bike. Nothing wrong with that. More of a laid back, big grin kind of fun. For me at least.

All that said, right now, I can't wait to get back out on my non e-bikes...

What was the question again?


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

Monty219 said:


> Ebikes sound great for all places where motorized access is already allowed!


Funny that, most places around here are moto legal or now ebike legal. The few that are left where they aren't legal people just ride anyhow and the rangers look the other way until they get around to legalizing them. I would say the haters are all  sad, but there just aren't enough to give a damn.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

Ogre said:


> Funny that, most places around here are moto legal or now ebike legal. The few that are left where they aren't legal people just ride anyhow and the rangers look the other way until they get around to legalizing them. I would say the haters are all  sad, but there just aren't enough to give a damn.


I dont hate ebikes. That would be sad indeed. I also dont hate non motorized access areas and would like to see them stay that way. To each their own (opinion)!


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

Monty219 said:


> I dont hate ebikes.


When someone (not you) says they refuse to buy a bike from a company that makes ebikes? Pretty clearly a hater. I know that's not you, just pointing out there are haters in the room... and Hater's gonna hate... and cry a lot too.



Monty219 said:


> That would be sad indeed. I also dont hate non motorized access areas and would like to see them stay that way. To each their own (opinion)!


Totally agree and I've pointed out some places where I don't think ebikes work. But around here we have a _lot_ of mostly uni-directional trails shuttle serviced or lightly traveled trails where there isn't likely to be much conflict or as mentioned are already moto legal.


----------



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I dislike ebikes to the point that I don't even want to support companies that make them...


So, you don't use even one single component made by Shimano, right?
Also, assuming this is an anti motor thing, no Fox suspension ever as well?
If you do use either of those brands, then you are a hypocrite.


----------



## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Having a bunch of people refuse to buy a non-electric bike from perfectly good companies just because they also build ebikes just cuts their non-ebike sales. That pushes them harder towards selling their ebikes and abandoning their non-electric models. All that would happen if people followed your lead, is that there would be fewer brands of non-electric bikes to choose from, and less competition. 

Your self-destruction doesn't hurt them.
Your chaos won't convert them.


----------



## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

Ogre said:


> Careful, there are still folks who occasionally pop up claiming 3x8 is better than 1x drivetrains. You might evoke them.


Here I am.


----------



## Amt0571 (May 22, 2014)

Ogre said:


> Careful, there are still folks who occasionally pop up claiming 3x8 is better than 1x drivetrains. You might evoke them.


Well, I'm not going to say that 3x8 is better. But 1x12 has a definite lack of range and crappy gear spacing. I'm tired of spinning out on my modern 1x12 bike and debating between the 10 and 12 cog without being able to find a comfortable cadence on flat areas. And that's not an opinion, that's maths at work.

I didn't have any of those issues with my 10 year old 3x9 bike.


----------



## juan_speeder (May 11, 2008)

While also not your point, Trek is privately owned.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

juan_speeder said:


> While also not your point, Trek is privately owned.


Yep that's correct my bad. I did a simple search and didn't look beyond google recommended answers:










Honestly, since my argument wasn't which bike companies are public traded, but rather profit and business pressures will drive bike companies to produce ebikes, I wasn't that stressed about it. I am sorry this is such a sticking point for you. Regardless, it's not like Trek (Private Company) isn't involved in the ebike market, right?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ziscwg said:


> I know this is fake news but.................
> I think the possibilities are there for such a bike. I have seen the hydrogen powered cars increase around here a lot.
> In the end, this would likely end up in the moto market vs the emtb market. I've seen moto guys ride for a while, come back to the truck, get gas and then ride more. Just replace the "get gas" with swap hydrogen cells.


It seems that hydro engines prefer a more constant load than one that fluctuates rapidly. 
Not really conducive to motorsports. Electric would be a better fit (for now anyway). Definitely would want to be able to swap batteries out though.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

WOW! Awakened to 10 pages, and almost like the old days when this topic would take off like a rocket. However the vehement haters seem to either have given up, are still cowering under their rocks or maybe COVID has softened society.


----------



## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

fos'l said:


> WOW! Awakened to 10 pages, and almost like the old days when this topic would take off like a rocket. However the vehement haters seem to either have given up, are still cowering under their rocks or maybe COVID has softened society.


as for me, i just agreed to disagree. pretty interesting to watch the argument sway back in forth. @slapheadmofo nailed my point exactly.


slapheadmofo said:


> E-biking isn't mountain biking; it's a different sport. Therefore, aside from trail access, nothing for you to be concerned about.





ziscwg said:


> Isn't that what DH and park riders do at various bike parks? Is shuttling or lift access not mtb? Maybe like one of those glider planes is not really flying a plane....


not really sure what you mean by this


----------



## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Arm&Hammer said:


> Anyone who uses the term acoustic bike is a full on retard


Would you rather have us use "slow bike"


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> Would you rather have us use "slow bike"


Maybe acoustic refers to how noisy the riders tend to be.

How about:

Meat cycle - a portmanteau of meat-powered bicycle and meat popsicle, to describe the riders who think in terms of puffing up their muscles and subsequently sizing each other up

Carb-o-rated bike - named similar to an old and outdated form of mixing air and fuel (carbs) to turn a crank. Might be useful to differentiate the nicer folk from the meat-headed ones

Classic bike - refers to the type of people who are attached to white-sidewall bias-ply tires on retro/antique cars, but instead for bicycles. All about that nostalgia vibe and getting other people to turn their heads as they pass by, to show off the elegant styling of their ride. Compliment them on their ride and they'll stand there for ages going on about its finer points, perhaps reflecting on their hot and sweaty time spent with it. The idea of a Prius or other hybrid is too utilitarian for them. They can't be as proud sharing a picture of that. They want something they can spend time polishing the paint, metal, and shiny colored bits on, like a trophy. A modern classic that is as useful as it is beautiful/elegant... essentially a shape that looks good for years, with good proportions and curves that welcome caressing (they prefer to word it: easy on the eyes and easy to clean and care for).

Enter ebikes at 1:40:


----------



## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

JulioBTLL said:


> I went from racing Downieville, with multiple training rides of the climb every summer to barely able to keep up with my son on a 500 ft climb. Doc says I should get new hip, but I've been riding a month E-mtb and ALL THE PAIN IS GONE! I'm not exaggerating when I say E-mtb has changed my life. Over the years, looking at threads about e-bikers and silently judging these riders while I hike in pain to careen out of control on my favorite trails. What a waste of precious time.
> 
> To all you silent lurker riders out there, ignore these fools clutching their pearls about e-mtb's. You do not need to suffer because others think that pain is part of joy.





slimat99 said:


> What I dont' understand is how a handicapped person like yourself can ride the DH but can't climb? I find the DH more abusive on my body than spinning up the climbs.


For me and my hip, the stress of the uphill grind just makes it hurt more and more. On DH, I still have some minor pain, but can rest it here and there. In addition, DH sections are way shorter. I do start to feel it on a DH that lasts over 12 min or so.

On my fav ride, I used to be able to do 4 laps. 
Injured, I could manage 1 or maybe 2 laps on a regular bike. 
With my ebike, I can usually do 3 until my legs/hip start to become an issue. If I only do 2 laps, I'm like, "What hip injury?"


----------



## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

juan_speeder said:


> I don't know how many tens of ebikes I've come across, but they all just seemed to be mountain biking, and doing it more slowly than myself on my regular ol' bike.


Interesting. I usually don't go blasting uphill in boost. So, many of the beginner ebikers in boost/turbo, just pass me like I'm on an acoustic bike. Then, the DH, I smoke past them like they have flat tires. LOL. I'd rather cruise the climb and get more laps in on the DH


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

A majority of the discomfort while climbing is from crappy geo. The new position you're forced into holding...

An easier gear doesn't help that very much; it just prolongs the suffering.

Not about making the pedaling easier. The novelty of having pro-level pedaling wattage at the flick of a switch eventually becomes normal. After some time it's back to just accessing new experiences, exploring the beauty/bounty of nature. Where and how far the bike can go will be on the minds of riders shopping for an upgrade. Free/leisure time is limited. People eventually will find value in being able to do more in that time. They'll weigh the value of a battery against the value of shedding weight with carbon goodies. Once the ownership experience fears die down, like fear of troublesome maintenance and the anxiety regarding what to do in case of failure, these hybrid systems will catch on.

We're not at full electronic integration yet. The next level of electronic integration maybe won't even let you shift gears without the power on. After that, maybe the suspension won't work optimally. After that, maybe the pedals won't propel the bike efficiently/directly.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

ziscwg said:


> For me and my hip, the stress of the uphill grind just makes it hurt more and more. On DH, I still have some minor pain, but can rest it here and there. In addition, DH sections are way shorter. I do start to feel it on a DH that lasts over 12 min or so.
> 
> On my fav ride, I used to be able to do 4 laps. Injured, I could manage 1 or maybe 2 laps. With my ebike, I can usually do 3 until my legs/hip start to become an issue. If I only do 2 laps, I'm like, "What hip injury?"


It sounds like one would have been awesome when I was recovering from tearing abductors. That took forever to heal, and riding was just painful. Nice.


----------



## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

ocnLogan said:


> Where I see the main problem is conflict on the climbs. Like where you end up with someone going *up *a multi-directional/multi-user trail at 20mph. Even passing other mountain bikers on biking only/directional climb trails at that speed is going to be a problem when you're going that fast. Simply because no one really expects anyone to be coming up the trail that fast at them/coming up behind them like that, and no one likes people flying past their elbows without warning. The speed differential on the climbs lets oblivious people do more dangerous/dumb stuff, and jerks be even more "jerky", which I think is where a lot of the negatives come from.





Ogre said:


> Yeah, I think this is a potential issue myself. Though having seen them in practice, they simply don't have the power to go anywhere near 20MPH consistently uphill. At least not on the trails I ride. Wouldn't hurt to make at least some of them one way.
> 
> Now Bend... I think they should probably stay off the table for the busier trails in Bend because I can easily see guys zipping up and down at 20MPH the 3% grade trails they have at Phils. I'm often doing 8-10MPH on the climbs myself without E assist. Lots of potential issues on those trails. Plus they are so damned easy to climb.


I cannot climb at 20mph on anything but a minor grade and killing myself doing it.

I know I climb faster than most AND know I will pass dh riders faster than they expect.

So, on busy trails, I actually use my bell on the uphill.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> at this point if a company announces that they are dropping an ebike I just scratch them off my list of potential purchases. I advocate and/or protest with my pocketbook and I'm allowed to have stupid views, right?


I predict that you will eventually buy a bike/frame from a company that makes E-bikes as well.

Best troll post that's ever been created with minimal effort btw. Picard could learn a thing or two from you.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> To all the ebikers in this thread, have you ever considered just not skipping leg day at the gym so you can go back to riding a real bike? Maybe try building your leg muscle so you don't have to rely on an engine to pedal your bike for you?





Ogre said:


> I know this is a hard concept here... try stretching your brain a little.
> 
> If I buy an ebike, it's because* I want to ride more and be in a car less, not because I want to work less.* I know it's tough to consider that there might be _more than one reason to own a thing_, by try it for a change. Just stretch that brain a little.


Agreed. I can do my normal 2 laps in less time, but that is as much work as on a regular bike. You have to work to keep the bike at speed climbing.
Or, I can go at my normal effort and get an extra lap in. I'm nowhere near my race-level fitness where I could do 4 laps on an acoustic bike, but it's still a good ride and workout on the ebike.


----------



## JulioBTLL (Dec 12, 2008)

ziscwg said:


> For me and my hip, the stress of the uphill grind just makes it hurt more and more. On DH, I still have some minor pain, but can rest it here and there. In addition, DH sections are way shorter. I do start to feel it on a DH that lasts over 12 min or so.
> 
> On my fav ride, I used to be able to do 4 laps.
> Injured, I could manage 1 or maybe 2 laps on a regular bike.
> With my ebike, I can usually do 3 until my legs/hip start to become an issue. If I only do 2 laps, I'm like, "What hip injury?"


Thanks for this. Riding buds thought I was just describing the placebo effect with an e-bike. I can ride lift access stuff just fine, but long climbs wrecked me.

I can squat and deadlift over my body weight, but cant climb long fire roads.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

roughster said:


> Actually, what I call "ebike bypasses" are pretty new for this season but they have been working out pretty well. The other piece is most of the regulars in this system ride ebikes, as well including myself the builder. Kind of took the wind out of the anti-e-bikers right away when they realized, without the ebikes, there would be no trails.


on the ebike bypasses....
Any idiots think......."Hey, I'm going to blast down the Ebike climb because looks fun."

No dh conflicts?


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

ziscwg said:


> For me and my hip, the stress of the uphill grind just makes it hurt more and more. On DH, I still have some minor pain, but can rest it here and there. In addition, DH sections are way shorter. I do start to feel it on a DH that lasts over 12 min or so.
> 
> On my fav ride, I used to be able to do 4 laps. Injured, I could manage 1 or maybe 2 laps. With my ebike, I can usually do 3 until my legs/hip start to become an issue. If I only do 2 laps, I'm like, "What hip injury?"


That's great you can enjoy riding with a motor it's just so foreign to me because after every injury I've been fooled into thinking I was ready to ride again because I could climb and even sprint with no issues. Then I hit the trail to find I can't ride down anything that isn't a smooth dirt sidewalk. Not once has my body been cable of DH but not climbing. I don't see how a motor is ever going to let me ride when my body is too handicapped to climb. I used to think I would focus more on lift service DH in old age because I love DH anyway. If my body gives me issues in old age, it will be DH that I'll have to compromise on, not climbing.


----------



## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

mlx john said:


> Best troll post that's ever been created with minimal effort btw. Picard could learn a thing or two from you.


I do have to say that for someone who never trolls, I'm pretty proud of myself with this one. I should drink Bookers more often.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

ziscwg said:


> on the ebike bypasses....
> Any idiots think......."Hey, I'm going to blast down the Ebike climb because looks fun."
> 
> No dh conflicts?


You are spot on with this concern. I have thought of this a couple of times (wondering if people will do it) but I have yet to see it happen.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> but back in the old days , the thought was there are three ways to train
> *1) ride with racers and try to keep up*
> 2) ride a track bike
> 3) ride rollers
> ...


I've moto-paced my buddy up a climb to push him more than once. If I just drop him and wait at the top, he just goes his normal pace. If he can see me 10 meters ahead, he is trying to catch up.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

chazpat said:


> *acoustic* adjective
> *Definition of acoustic*
> 1*: *of or relating to the sense or organs of hearing, to sound, or to the science of sound
> 2*: *of, relating to, or being a* slower bike* whose* propulsion *is not electronically modified
> ...


F.I.F.Y.


----------



## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

r-rocket said:


> Having a bunch of people refuse to buy a non-electric bike from perfectly good companies just because they also build ebikes just cuts their non-ebike sales. That pushes them harder towards selling their ebikes and abandoning their non-electric models. All that would happen if people followed your lead, is that there would be fewer brands of non-electric bikes to choose from, and less competition.
> 
> Your self-destruction doesn't hurt them.
> Your chaos won't convert them.


A good way to look at it...............from a business point of view. Bike companies are a business. If model E2 keeps them in business, but model X4 is where their passion lies, they will build the E2 and take that money and put it into their X4 model.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

and… another ebiker who confesses to liking the motor for speed rather than truly wanting assist for a bicycle experience.

And yes I know this doesn't apply to all ebikers, but some are more about the electric motor than they are about the bike aspect.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> but back in the old days , the thought was there are three ways to train
> 1) ride with racers and try to keep up
> 2) ride a track bike
> 3) ride rollers
> ...


My old Motobecane Messenger made me a much better mountain biker. I kind of miss riding fixed.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

ziscwg said:


> on the ebike bypasses....
> Any idiots think......."Hey, I'm going to blast down the Ebike climb because looks fun."
> 
> No dh conflicts?


There are jerks in every crowd, but this is mostly self-regulating. We have a trail here which is almost always downhill only, but in the early season before the snow melts on the top, some of the guys ebike up it. They don't do it in the summer when the trail is busy. It's just not very fun climbing up a busy downhill trail (ebike or not) or likewise, going down a busy climbing trail.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> and&#8230; another ebiker who confesses to liking the motor for speed rather than truly wanting assist for a bicycle experience.
> 
> And yes I know this doesn't apply to all ebikers, but some are more about the electric motor than they are about the bike aspect.


Much like there are so many mountain bikers that are out there for the speed/gear-weenie/exerciser-trophy than they are for the bicycle experience.


----------



## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Varaxis said:


> Carb-o-rated bike - named similar to an old and outdated form of mixing air and fuel (carbs) to turn a crank. Might be useful to differentiate the nicer folk from the meat-headed ones


Woah, who you calling old and outdated?!? My carb bike is one mean internal combustion engine machine. And no, I do not confuse this with an ebike. Lol


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

It's also named from hydrocarbon chains, not carbohydrates.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

dysfunction said:


> It's also named from hydrocarbon chains, not carbohydrates.


Took me a second to realize you meant chains of hydrocarbon molecules, not bike chains made of hydrocarbons. I'm sure this was deliberate.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RBoardman said:


> Woah, who you calling old and outdated?!? My carb bike is one mean internal combustion engine machine. And no, I do not confuse this with an ebike. Lol


Damn skippy!


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

For a bunch of medium aged guys on this forum, this thread makes ya’ll sound like a bunch of b**ches!
Just accept change, if not for you then stop judging. Btw y’all need to boycott SRAM and Shimano if you’re a true hardcore bike hater. Oh, Fox and Rock shox also! Rigid single speeds for everyone😂😂


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> For a bunch of medium aged guys on this forum, this thread makes ya'll sound like a bunch of b**ches!
> Just accept change, if not for you then stop judging. Btw y'all need to boycott SRAM and Shimano if you're a true hardcore bike hater. Oh, Fox and Rock shox also! Rigid single speeds for everyone??


Who you calling medium age? I think most of us (though not the OP) are well past that!

And I'm in!










Haven't seen you lately, how you doing?


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

chazpat said:


> and&#8230; another ebiker who confesses to liking the motor for speed rather than truly wanting assist for a bicycle experience.
> 
> And yes I know this doesn't apply to all ebikers, but some are more about the electric motor than they are about the bike aspect.


Oh NO!!


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Gutch said:


> For a bunch of medium aged guys on this forum, this thread makes ya'll sound like a bunch of b**ches!
> Just accept change, if not for you then stop judging. Btw y'all need to boycott SRAM and Shimano if you're a true hardcore bike hater. Oh, Fox and Rock shox also! Rigid single speeds for everyone??


SRAM perhaps tried to be sneaky and made their ebike stuff under Sachs.

Edit: looked it up again, and it seems "Sachs Micro Mobility" ebike motors are made by a company unrelated to the Sachs company that SRAM bought out.


----------



## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

Ogre said:


> When someone (not you) says they refuse to buy a bike from a company that makes ebikes? Pretty clearly a hater. I know that's not you, just pointing out there are haters in the room... and Hater's gonna hate... and cry a lot too.
> 
> Totally agree and I've pointed out some places where I don't think ebikes work. But around here we have a _lot_ of mostly uni-directional trails shuttle serviced or lightly traveled trails where there isn't likely to be much conflict or as mentioned are already moto legal.


Yeah im all for that and use in many places. There are some more fragile places though where they may not belong.


Ogre said:


> When someone (not you) says they refuse to buy a bike from a company that makes ebikes? Pretty clearly a hater. I know that's not you, just pointing out there are haters in the room... and Hater's gonna hate... and cry a lot too.
> 
> Totally agree and I've pointed out some places where I don't think ebikes work. But around here we have a _lot_ of mostly uni-directional trails shuttle serviced or lightly traveled trails where there isn't likely to be much conflict or as mentioned are already moto legal.


word. I just worry about noobs on ebikes over torquing climbs in delicate areas and blowing out the trail. Thats about my only concern. Otherwise i really dont care what anyone rides as long as they are respectful of the trail, nature, and other people. Same goes for riders of all types of bikes.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

chazpat said:


> Who you calling medium age? I think most of us (though not the OP) are well past that!
> 
> And I'm in!
> 
> ...


Thata boy! I'm just 50, but have no desire to ride that beast! But that's your gig and cool beans. I've been slammed with work and haven't had a lot of free time lately.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

diamondback1x9 said:


> as for me, i just agreed to disagree. pretty interesting to watch the argument sway back in forth. @slapheadmofo nailed my point exactly.
> 
> not really sure what you mean by this


SHM and I have agreed on this for years. It's not the same sport, but (for me) they are pretty much interchangeable and fun. I don't get nearly as much exercise on the "e", but don't plan to and that's just me.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fos'l said:


> SHM and I have agreed on this for years. It's not the same sport, but (for me) they are pretty much interchangeable and fun. I don't get nearly as much exercise on the "e", but don't plan to and that's just me.


Yup.

Nice to see you back by the way!
A few of us were wondering where and how you been recently. 🤟


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Your stance on this topic is a clear indicator of whether or not you are a “fitness enthusiast” or someone who loves riding. Very telling. IME the “enthusiasts” always suck. Both their riding, and their attitude. Personally I can’t wait for more brands to make more E-bikes. If anything just because it makes so many people angry about it. 🤣


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## toyotatacomaTRD (Apr 4, 2012)

Part of my frustration comes from wanting a new bike. I'm being told, possibly next year for availability. Meanwhile my bike shop has 10 mountain bikes to choose from, 8 of them e-bikes and 2 odd ball sizes. Had the manufacturer not tried to get this tiny niche that no doubt sucked resources and manufacturing time, they'd be selling actual bikes, not collecting dust on bikes with batteries that are diminishing by the day.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Streetdoctor said:


> Your stance on this topic is a clear indicator of whether or not you are a "fitness enthusiast" or someone who loves riding. Very telling. IME the "enthusiasts" always suck. Both their riding, and their attitude.


Oh yeah? Well, I'll bet my VO2 max is bigger than your VO2 max!!!
So there!

?


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

toyotatacomaTRD said:


> Part of my frustration comes from wanting a new bike. I'm being told, possibly next year for availability. Meanwhile my bike shop has 10 mountain bikes to choose from, 8 of them e-bikes and 2 odd ball sizes. Had the manufacturer not tried to get this tiny niche that no doubt sucked resources and manufacturing time, they'd be selling actual bikes, not collecting dust on bikes with batteries that are diminishing by the day.


Wait, you have a LBS with ebikes in stock? Where are you, maybe it's time for a road trip!

Trying to score an ebike for my wife for an upcoming trip and it's been impossible.

I'm sure ebikes have sucked some resources from regular bikes, but they are not a "tiny niche" at this point by any means.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

toyotatacomaTRD said:


> Part of my frustration comes from wanting a new bike. I'm being told, possibly next year for availability. Meanwhile my bike shop has 10 mountain bikes to choose from, 8 of them e-bikes and 2 odd ball sizes. Had the manufacturer not tried to get this tiny niche that no doubt sucked resources and manufacturing time, they'd be selling actual bikes, not collecting dust on bikes with batteries that are diminishing by the day.


Well, that's the final straw. Now e-bikes have ruined shopping!! And we all know shopping is far more important than riding!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Oh yeah? Well, I'll bet my VO2 max is bigger than your VO2 max!!!
> So there!
> 
> 🤡


My VO2 max is bigger than the both of you. I just did a shot of VP C4.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> My VO2 max is bigger than the both of you. I just did a shot of VP C4.


Easy Lance...


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Ogre said:


> Wait, you have a LBS with ebikes in stock? Where are you, maybe it's time for a road trip!
> 
> Trying to score an ebike for my wife for an upcoming trip and it's been impossible.
> 
> I'm sure ebikes have sucked some resources from regular bikes, but they are not a "tiny niche" at this point by any means.


last time I was in the store here that sells spesh... I swear I saw ebikes. Just like XXL's in the $10,000 range


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

Ogre said:


> Wait, you have a LBS with ebikes in stock? Where are you, maybe it's time for a road trip!
> 
> Trying to score an ebike for my wife for an upcoming trip and it's been impossible.
> 
> I'm sure ebikes have sucked some resources from regular bikes, but they are not a "tiny niche" at this point by any means.


Last time i was at breakaway cycles in loveland Co they had a ton of ebikes and only a few regular bikes. Although that was a few months ago.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

Monty219 said:


> Last time i was at breakaway cycles in loveland Co they had a ton of ebikes and only a few regular bikes. Although that was a few months ago.


It's only an 18 hour drive. Maybe stop in Fruita on the way back for a dial-in ride. I have a buddy who likes in Grand Junction. This can happen.


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## toyotatacomaTRD (Apr 4, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Well, that's the final straw. Now e-bikes have ruined shopping!! And we all know shopping is far more important than riding!


I'm not shopping... Bike is selected, I'm ready to buy, but there's no inventory until next year likely. I do however have my options on the table if I want a bike with a battery that in 4 years time nobody will want because the battery doesn't hold a charge and the battery technology changed so there's no way to replace it.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Ogre said:


> Wait, you have a LBS with ebikes in stock? Where are you, maybe it's time for a road trip!
> 
> Trying to score an ebike for my wife for an upcoming trip and it's been impossible.
> 
> I'm sure ebikes have sucked some resources from regular bikes, but they are not a "tiny niche" at this point by any means.


What specifically are you looking for? I know a few shapes here in NorCal that have ebikes in stock. Feel free to PM me if you are serious about a bike and I can reach out for you.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

Ogre said:


> It's only an 18 hour drive. Maybe stop in Fruita on the way back for a dial-in ride. I have a buddy who likes in Grand Junction. This can happen.


Breakaway in Loveland and Full Cycle in Boulder are my go to's. Full cycle has a lot of regular bikes (relatively these days) from what even seen in the past few months.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> Oh yeah? Well, I'll bet my VO2 max is bigger than your VO2 max!!!
> So there!
> 
> ?


Bet it's not. ??? I love to ride... I ride my "normal" bike 4-5 days a week, and take the E-bike out when I should be resting or if I'm trying not to blow myself up for an upcoming big ride. The difference between fitness enthusiasts and riders.....  I haven't had a VO2 Max/MET test in a while but it's probably around 60.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

My fitness has decreased ever since I got ebikes, but I don’t really care because the fun factor has increased.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

Monty219 said:


> Breakaway in Loveland and Full Cycle in Boulder are my go to's. Full cycle has a lot of regular bikes (relatively these days) from what even seen in the past few months.


It isn't entirely off the table, but I don't think I'm going that far for a bike pick up. Though I did pick up my RLT at Colorado Cyclelry a few years ago, I was already road tripping that time.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Sparticus said:


> Hi Everybody!


Hi Sparty!


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

RBoardman said:


> My fitness has decreased ever since I got ebikes, but I don't really care because the fun factor has increased.


The pattern of riding for fitness so you can have more fun later on, like on a weekend epic, is something I'm glad I ditched. Especially the dick measuring part...

I don't think about getting a ride in, as if it were "rent" to maintain fitness. I don't follow any specific route knowing it'll be a good workout. I just ride like a kid again, on top of finding an errand to do, or find an actual purpose to the ride (can be as simple as exploration or patrol), rather than being mere recreation.


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Ogre said:


> Wait, you have a LBS with ebikes in stock? Where are you, maybe it's time for a road trip!
> 
> Trying to score an ebike for my wife for an upcoming trip and it's been impossible.


The irony alone of this thread leading directly to an ebike purchase, makes the road trip worth it.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yup.
> 
> Nice to see you back by the way!
> A few of us were wondering where and how you been recently. 🤟


Thanks for asking. Doing great having a blast in socal. Kind of went to the dark side as my wife and I are riding MTB three times a week, so only once or twice on the "e". Miss the wild and woolly days of yore when we minded the store. Always plan to get back east for the beer you owe me (remember the Superbowl?), but hardly traveling out of the house except to visit the kids or ride. Great to hear from you and hope your family is prospering mightily.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Varaxis said:


> The pattern of riding for fitness so you can have more fun later on, like on a weekend epic, is something I'm glad I ditched. Especially the dick measuring part...
> 
> I don't think about getting a ride in, as if it were "rent" to maintain fitness. I don't follow any specific route knowing it'll be a good workout. I just ride like a kid again, on top of finding an errand to do, or find an actual purpose to the ride (can be as simple as exploration or patrol), rather than being mere recreation.


^^This! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

Varaxis said:


> The pattern of riding for fitness so you can have more fun later on, like on a weekend epic, is something I'm glad I ditched. Especially the dick measuring part...
> 
> I don't think about getting a ride in, as if it were "rent" to maintain fitness. I don't follow any specific route knowing it'll be a good workout. I just ride like a kid again, on top of finding an errand to do, or find an actual purpose to the ride (can be as simple as exploration or patrol), rather than being mere recreation.


I ride for fitness because I don't want to be fat. But riding for fitness can and IMO should be riding for fun also. Hitting the trails on a Wednesday night. Or in this case a Tuesday night after taking care of business.

I know, purists will whine about not hacking through the log with an axe (or my bare hands), but we've pretty well established the whole point of electric is so you can ride more. Sometimes... electric is just better.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Ogre said:


> I ride for fitness because I don't want to be fat. But riding for fitness can and IMO should be riding for fun also. Hitting the trails on a Wednesday night. Or in this case a Tuesday night after taking care of business.
> 
> I know, purists will whine about not hacking through the log with an axe (or my bare hands), but we've pretty well established the whole point of electric is so you can ride more. Sometimes... electric is just better.
> 
> View attachment 1921377


Oh Jesus, are you really comparing a "purist" that simply doesn't believe motors have a place in mountain biking to someone that would expect hand tools to be used for trail maintenance? Is a skateboarder a purist if they don't 
like eboards?

Speaking of hand tools, wilderness areas require that. It's a screwed up rule but it is what it is. We've been fighting for wilderness access, do you think ebikes are helping or hurting that cause? Yeah I know, we weren't going to get in anyway. We had a puncher's chance until ebikes cockblocked. I know someone's going to respond ebikes didnt' change anything. Keep believing that. We all live in a bubble forgetting that we are the black sheep of trail users. We always have been, and motors have just pushed us further into the hate zone. Some here are embracing that image with a fuc the rules I'll ride my ebike where ever I want.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

slimat99 said:


> ...Speaking of hand tools, wilderness areas require that. It's a screwed up rule but it is what it is. We've been fighting for wilderness access, do you think ebikes are helping or hurting that cause? Yeah I know, we weren't going to get in anyway. We had a puncher's chance until ebikes cockblocked....


I do think this is one of the actual "real" arguments / potential negatives about ebikes, and I am obviouly a 100% supporter.

*However, *what we have seen in reality, as opposed to Chicken Little'ing, ebikes *have accelerated *access discussions for areas where MTBs have been dismissed and excluded historically. Look around NorCal. Every jurisdiction is having discussions about ebikes and access in general. eBikes have the lobbying power behind them during these talks and standard MTBs are actually riding on the coat tails in many cases.

I'm not saying everything is rosy and it will always be a win for eMTB/MTB, but the reality is access discussions have improved with the ebikes since we (both 'e' and std) now actually have a voice at the table which in many cases we never had before.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> Oh Jesus, are you really comparing a "purist" that simply doesn't believe motors have a place in mountain biking to someone that would expect hand tools to be used for trail maintenance? Is a skateboarder a purist if they don't
> like eboards?


Again, e-bikes aren't mountain bikes. 
I know there are some/many e-bike proponents that want to pretend they are so they can ride the coattails of MTB when it comes to access, but they're not. 
They're a distinct user group and the challenge is to make sure that is understood clearly by other user groups as well as land managers.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

from slimat99. "eBikes have the lobbying power behind them during these talks and standard MTBs are actually riding on the coat tails in many cases."

Name of eBike lobbyists? What is their agenda? Trail access? eBike industry? Who is paying them?


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Again, e-bikes aren't mountain bikes.
> I know there are some/many e-bike proponents that want to pretend they are so they can ride the coattails of MTB when it comes to access, but they're not.
> They're a distinct user group and the challenge is to make sure that is understood clearly by other user groups as well as land managers.


I'm sorry to be blunt, but repeating "ebikes aren't MTBs" over and over just makes you look like you are raving / frothing at the mouth, and not in a good way. Kind of like the old man shaking his fists at the sky. It also shows a pretty substantial ignorance of what an ebike is and how they are ridden. To end, it shows a fairly large lack of critical thinking skills. I am not saying anyone who opposes ebikes lacks critical thinking, just your argument and the endless repeating of it over and over and over clearly demonstrates a lack of it.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

EKram said:


> from slimat99. "eBikes have the lobbying power behind them during these talks and standard MTBs are actually riding on the coat tails in many cases."
> 
> Name of eBike lobbyists? What is their agenda? Trail access? eBike industry? Who is paying them?


To be clear, I wrote that not slimat. There are several:

*US:*

E-bike Partner and Agency Group
People for Bikes has a strong pro-ebike stance
IMBA has a fairly pro-ebike stance now

*Europe:*

Cycling Industries Europe (CIE)
Industry association CONEBI
User group organization European Cyclists' Federation (ECF)

Not too mention, most larger brands in general Specialized, Giant, Trek etc. also lobby individually.


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Replying to Streetdoctor: This is a good point. On my e-bike, I can control my effort a lot better and still have fun. For me, it's about being able to go out and have fun on "off" days or what should be "light" days. It's not about just blasting up a climb as fast as the motor will let me and bombing down. At my age, riding regular mountain bikes for days on end when I go to the mountains for the summer gets to where I have to take off or at least take it easy for a few days. With my e-bike, I can't wait to be able to ride every day and not get as beaten down after a week or 2.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> They're a distinct user group and the challenge is to make sure that is understood clearly by other user groups as well as land managers.


I agree that they should be a distinct user group but they're not, in many areas for all practical purposes they are legally considered a bicycle.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

slimat99 said:


> Oh Jesus, are you really comparing a "purist" that simply doesn't believe motors have a place in mountain biking to someone that would expect hand tools to be used for trail maintenance? Is a skateboarder a purist if they don't
> like eboards?


I have no idea what nonsense purists believe. We've got people claiming ebikes aren't mountain bikes, others joking about ebikers using powered shovels. There's all sorts of nonsense bouncing around.



slimat99 said:


> Speaking of hand tools, wilderness areas require that. It's a screwed up rule but it is what it is. We've been fighting for wilderness access, do you think ebikes are helping or hurting that cause?


I have no idea. I haven't seen a ton of evidence it impacts it in any way.

Right now I'm not holding my breath hoping for reform of the Wilderness bill regardless. I just fight any new Wilderness designations. I'm not on board with IMBA's surrender-strategy, and support lobbying efforts to open the Wilderness up, but it feels like that ship has sailed.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

Whether or not ebikes are mountain bikes or not is hard to say. They are definitely different in an important way: Whether or not they have motors is obvious. They have their place for sure, not necessarily everywhere non motorized access is allowed, but maybe some carefully considered places. Just like how non e (regular) mountain bikes have their place and maybe (probably) in some wilderness areas, but not all wilderness areas. Its not black and white and thats what makes it tough.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

@roughster. @slimat99. Sorry I crossed up your words.

I have one advocacy group (that I am aware of) in my area. They split between walking and biking. eBikes surely are on their radar. I need to dig and find out their words on eBikes.

Cheers


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

roughster said:


> I'm sorry to be blunt, but repeating "ebikes aren't MTBs" over and over just makes you look like you are raving / frothing at the mouth, and not in a good way. Kind of like the old man shaking his fists at the sky. It also shows a pretty substantial ignorance of what an ebike is and how they are ridden. To end, it shows a fairly large lack of critical thinking skills. I am not saying anyone who opposes ebikes lacks critical thinking, just your argument and the endless repeating of it over and over and over clearly demonstrates a lack of it.


Except he's right. Repeating that ebikes are bicycles over and over just makes you look like you have an agenda. Why can't ebikes just be ebikes? Why does the definition of what a bicycle is need to change to accommodate certain people that don't seem to be comfortable with what they are doing or have other motives? We all know why the ebike manufacturers (who run People for Bikes btw) have pushed to have them regulated as bicycles. Some similarities? Sure. The same thing? Nope.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

roughster said:


> I'm sorry to be blunt, but repeating "ebikes aren't MTBs" over and over just makes you look like you are raving / frothing at the mouth, and not in a good way. Kind of like the old man shaking his fists at the sky. It also shows a pretty substantial ignorance of what an ebike is and how they are ridden. To end, it shows a fairly large lack of critical thinking skills. I am not saying anyone who opposes ebikes lacks critical thinking, just your argument and the endless repeating of it over and over and over clearly demonstrates a lack of it.


I'm sorry to be blunt, but the fact that you think I oppose e-bikes or don't know anything about them, considering what I've actually said not only right in this particular thread but also in many others, shows you lack not only critical thinking but also the basic ability to read and understand English.

Further the fact that you consider me saying something TWICE in a 13 page thread is 'repeating ...over and over' and 'raving / frothing at the mouth' makes it look like you apparently don't have much of a grip on reality. You do realize you ranted/raved/repeated yourself more in a single post than anyone else has across the entire 250+ comment thread right? LOL!

You're completely ignoring almost everything I've said and flying off the handle because you're all triggered that the simple and obvious fact that an e-bike is different than a mountain bike was brought up. Like that's some sort of shocking offense.
Derrr..... 

Mountain bikes don't have motors, no matter what your favorite marketing department tells you. You stop pretending they do, I'll stop correcting you. Deal?


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

chazpat said:


> Except he's right. Repeating that ebikes are bicycles over and over just makes you look like you have an agenda. Why can't ebikes just be ebikes? Why does the definition of what a bicycle is need to change to accommodate certain people that don't seem to be comfortable with what they are doing or have other motives? We all know why the ebike manufacturers (who run People for Bikes btw) have pushed to have them regulated as bicycles. Some similarities? Sure. The same thing? Nope.


You have it reversed with what the way most of the population sees it. eMTB is MTB with electric assist. That's it. That's how the public sees it. That's why you buy an eMTB at your local bike shop and not Kawasaki. That's why we discuss them on a Mountain Biking site. Increasingly that's the way forest managers are treating them. This thread was started by one dude whining about mountain bike companies making electric assist mountain bikes.

This ship has sailed. Some folks just haven't quite caught on, but the more you repeat this the sillier you look.

They are _and should be_ regulated differently in some places. But no matter how many times you repeat it, you can't take the MTB out of eMTB.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ogre said:


> That's why you buy an eMTB at your local bike shop and not Kawasaki.


If you say so.

Or maybe not...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ogre said:


> You have it reversed with what the way most of the population sees it. eMTB is MTB with electric assist. That's it. That's how the public sees it. That's why you buy an eMTB at your local bike shop and not Kawasaki. That's why we discuss them on a Mountain Biking site. Increasingly that's the way forest managers are treating them. This thread was started by one dude whining about mountain bike companies making electric assist mountain bikes.
> 
> This ship has sailed. Some folks just haven't quite caught on, but the more you repeat this the sillier you look.
> 
> They are _and should be_ regulated differently in some places. But no matter how many times you repeat it, you can't take the MTB out of eMTB.


Where did I say that?! All I said was that an ebike is not a bicycle, I never said that an emtb should be referred to without the "mtb". But as long as that "e" is on there, an "emtb" and a "mtb" are not both bicycles, just like mini-golf and golf are not both "golf". Again, what's wrong with the terms ebiking and emtb? Is it really that hard to add the "e" to "mtb" to be clear about what you're talking about? Why are some people not wanting to do that?

I can buy a candy bar at my LBS. Does that make it a bicycle? And you can buy an ebike at your Harley dealer btw.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> If you say so.


I guess mountain bikes have been OHVs since the 90s then?










I'd post pictures of MTB companies offering eMTBs, but since this is a mountain bike site I don't have to, they are sprawled on damned near every page here.


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

Gonna have to look up reviews for the Husky and the KTM. Definitely want now. I'll stay out of wilderness areas, too many people walking around there because of Covid.


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## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

slapheadmofo said:


>


that's an oxymoron if i ever saw one


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

chazpat said:


> Where did I say that?! All I said was that an ebike is not a bicycle, I never said that an emtb should be referred to without the "mtb". But as long as that "e" is on there, an "emtb" and a "mtb" are not both bicycles, just like mini-golf and golf are not both "golf". Again, what's wrong with the terms ebiking and emtb? Is it really that hard to add the "e" to "mtb" to be clear about what you're talking about? Why are some people not wanting to do that?


Try an experiment here. Go somewhere where people are riding bikes, some electric, some acoustic. Point at someone riding an ebike and ask a random stranger. "What is that guy doing?"

What do you think they are going to say?

I'll bet you $100 they will say "He's riding a bike".


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Ogre said:


> You have it reversed with what the way most of the population sees it. eMTB is MTB with electric assist. That's it. That's how the public sees it. That's why you buy an eMTB at your local bike shop and not Kawasaki. That's why we discuss them on a Mountain Biking site. Increasingly that's the way forest managers are treating them. This thread was started by one dude whining about mountain bike companies making electric assist mountain bikes.
> 
> This ship has sailed. Some folks just haven't quite caught on, but the more you repeat this the sillier you look.
> 
> They are _and should be_ regulated differently in some places. But no matter how many times you repeat it, you can't take the MTB out of eMTB.


I agree the public sees little to no difference between e and mountain bikes. Marketing works. Just imagine if companies marketed them differently. Ebikes could have been marketed as hybrid motorbikes just as easily has hybrid mountain bikes. If ebikes were coming from moto companies with the intention of selling to moto riders, they would call them pedal moto bikes. They would come up with something much catchier but you get my point. Ebikes are bikes with motors. I don't' need marketing to tell me what something is. It would be great if the industry would draw a line with motors clearly separating e from mtb but their goal is to sell to mountain bikers and gain the same access as mountain bikes. Now even bike geeks can't agree where they fit in. Of course non bike people can't agree.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ogre said:


> I guess mountain bikes have been OHVs since the 90s then?


You can't tell the difference between a sticker and a motor and you expect to be taken seriously?

You're the one who said people don't/can't buy ebikes from Kawasaki. 
You obviously stand corrected, lame attempt at changing the subject and unwillingness to admit it aside.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

slimat99 said:


> I agree the public sees little to no difference between e and mountain bikes. Marketing works. Just imagine if companies marketed them differently.


It's not "Marketing".

People see them as the same because the difference between the two is absolutely trivial. They look the same to most people. They sound the same. People do the same things when they are on top of them. The only difference is eBikes go a little faster on flats and climbs.

If they made a ton of noise, were much bigger, or if the speed difference was massive, it's likely people would differentiate them. On tight singletrack, often the biggest difference isn't even how fast people are going, but how _far_ they go which is even more subtle.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ogre said:


> They sound the same.


I'm pretty sure a non-existent motors doesn't register 80-90+ decibels. 
Could be wrong, but probably not.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ogre said:


> If they made a ton of noise, were much bigger, or if the speed difference was massive, it's likely people would differentiate them.


So you choose not to differentiate between no motor and a Class 1 motor then?
Do you also refuse to differentiate between e-bike classes?
Or would that be far too much consistency to expect?

Is a Class 2 ebike still the same thing?
How about a Class 3, or beyond?
At exactly what power level do we get to stop pretending the motor doesn't exist?
Because you know, "People see them as the same because the difference between the two is absolutely trivial. They look the same to most people. They sound the same. People do the same things when they are on top of them."


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm pretty sure a non-existent motors doesn't register 80-90+ decibels.
> Could be wrong, but probably not.


They don't but an I9 hub can sure be close. It's like the bike has a built in bear bell.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ziscwg said:


> They don't but an I9 hub can sure be close. It's like the bike has a built in bear bell.


Good point. Imagine an ebike with an I9 hub? Probably need earplugs.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Ogre said:


> It's not "Marketing".
> 
> People see them as the same because the difference between the two is absolutely trivial. They look the same to most people. They sound the same. People do the same things when they are on top of them. The only difference is eBikes go a little faster on flats and climbs.
> 
> If they made a ton of noise, were much bigger, or if the speed difference was massive, it's likely people would differentiate them. On tight singletrack, often the biggest difference isn't even how fast people are going, but how _far_ they go which is even more subtle.


It's marketing. If the bike industry made a point to draw a clear line between the two no one would be arguing about what they are. I do agree there's little difference on the trail, and non bike people would be confused regardless of marketing, but us bike geeks wouldn't be arguing if not for marketing. The fact that even geeks can't nail down what they are and where the belong is because of marketing designed to blur the lines on something that can easily be marketed in multiple ways.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ogre said:


> Try an experiment here. Go somewhere where people are riding bikes, some electric, some acoustic. Point at someone riding an ebike and ask a random stranger. "What is that guy doing?"
> 
> What do you think they are going to say?
> 
> I'll bet you $100 they will say "He's riding a bike".


Since "bike" refers to motorcycles as well as bicycles, of course they would say that. What's your point? Point out that the bulge on the frame is a motor that powers the rear wheel and then ask if it is a bicycle and most will say "no". Ask them if it is a motorized bike and they will say "yes".

I don't care if you ride an ebike or a bicycle, but pretending they are the same is just silly and as others have mentioned, marketing for the benefit of the manufacturers. Do you ride a geared bike and then claim you were single speeding because you only used one speed at a time? Once again, why can't an ebike be an ebike? You don't seem to want to answer this.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> Since "bike" refers to motorcycles as well as bicycles, of course they would say that. What's your point? Point out that the bulge on the frame is a motor that powers the rear wheel and then ask if it is a bicycle and most will say "no". Ask them if it is a motorized bike and they will say "yes".
> 
> I don't care if you ride an ebike or a bicycle, but pretending they are the same is just silly and as others have mentioned, marketing for the benefit of the manufacturers. Do you ride a geared bike and then claim you were single speeding because you only used one speed at a time? Once again, why can't an ebike be an ebike? You don't seem to want to answer this.


I hear people call their motorcycles and quads 'bikes' all the time. I do it myself. So do the vast majority of people.
Does that mean my kid's 35,000 watt ATV is the same thing as a bicycle because a lot of people use the same word to refer to them? Or maybe it means that some words can be used to describe more than specific item? Shocking, but true.

Also silly is that I've been here posting in SUPPORT of e-bikes, but because I acknowledge the simple and obvious fact that yes, they DO have motors, all of a sudden the kooks come out of the woodwork and start trying to argue with me. Can't believe no one has been crying about how I'm a 'hater' yet. I'm sure it's coming. LOL!


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

MTBR needs a short term ignore button.


chazpat said:


> Since "bike" refers to motorcycles as well as bicycles, of course they would say that. What's your point? Point out that the bulge on the frame is a motor that powers the rear wheel and then ask if it is a bicycle and most will say "no". Ask them if it is a motorized bike and they will say "yes".


Now you are trying to out-pedant slapdash?

Whatever.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

I was considering an eMTB a couple months ago. I ended up buying an adventure motorcycle instead. I was a motorcycle rider before I hopped on bicycles so I'm happy to be back. Nothing against eMTBs but they aren't allowed everywhere yet and I don't want to deal with the drama. I'm having a great time off-roading my adventure bike! 

Will all manufacturers eventually make an e-bike? Nah, I don't think so. I think some of the non-mainstream brands won't go down that route. It could be due to research and building costs to make an e-bike design. It may be related to reputation. Just a wild guess.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ogre said:


> MTBR needs a short term ignore button.


Why? Just stop being wrong and people will stop proving you wrong (and using your own words to do it).

So - back to those those e-bike class distinctions.
At what wattage would you say the motor becomes a motor? 1500? 5000? 10000?
If an Class 2 e-bike is 'basically the same thing' as a Class 1 e-bike, they should be treated the same way as far as access right? Just like a Class 1 is 'basically the same thing' as a mountain bike.

And if a Class 3 is 'basically the same thing' as a Class 2, shouldn't they also be included in the discussion?
If not, why not?

Looking for to you ignoring these questions, as we know answering them would show the hypocrisy of your previous arguments.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

When you reduce your arguments down to simple logic (e.g. ebikes aren't bicycles), you just make yourself sound as mentally-challenged/deficient as all the others making similar arguments: flat-earth, fake-moon-landing, anti-vac, anti-mask, pro-lifer, etc.

Land management can differentiate between all the types of bikes. For example, some only allow fat bike access. In this case, pedal-assist with less than 1 horsepower and a 20mph speed limit is defined as class 1 ebike, to differentiate from other ebikes. It's an exception from other ebikes. Damage studies were done. Class 1 pedal-assist bikes are seen as a green way to travel.

Probably not as severe as a pro-lifer saying all-abortions-are-murder, but akin to saying if-you're-born-with-a-penis-you're-male, regarding concerns about gender-separated facility usage. Sad when the debate gets dragged down to a level of deeper stupidity, with counter-arguments being akin to feminists saying all-men-are-pigs, in response to how some want to keep their group "oppressed".


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Battery said:


> I was considering an eMTB a couple months ago. I ended up buying an adventure motorcycle instead. I was a motorcycle rider before I hopped on bicycles so I'm happy to be back. Nothing against eMTBs but they aren't allowed everywhere yet and I don't want to deal with the drama. I'm having a great time off-roading my adventure bike!
> 
> Will all manufacturers eventually make an e-bike? Nah, I don't think so. I think some of the non-mainstream brands won't go down that route. It could be due to research and building costs to make an e-bike design. It may be related to reputation. Just a wild guess.


I guess it depends on how big the market becomes, I can't see it being all that big and with motorcycle companies, bicycle companies and pure ebike companies all competing for that same limited number of consumers, they all aren't going to make it.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> When you reduce your arguments down to simple logic (e.g. ebikes aren't bicycles), you just make yourself sound as mentally-challenged/deficient as all the others making similar arguments: flat-earth, fake-moon-landing, anti-vac, anti-mask, pro-lifer, etc.


Aside from all your ridiculous comparative stretching, what do you call it when people want to pretend a motor isn't a motor?
Simple illogic? And to you, that's sound reasoning?

They are different than regular bikes. Guess what distinguishes them; you get 1 try.
Will you continue with your wacky, way-hell-out-there comparisons and say it's a motor but it doesn't identify as one? At least until it reaches a certain wattage?

Ebikes are Ebikes. What's the BFD about referring to them as such?
That's why we have different words for different things.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> When you reduce your arguments down to simple logic (e.g. ebikes aren't bicycles), you just make yourself sound as mentally-challenged/deficient as all the others making similar arguments: flat-earth, fake-moon-landing, anti-vac, anti-mask, pro-lifer, etc.
> 
> Land management can differentiate between all the types of bikes. For example, some only allow fat bike access. In this case, pedal-assist with less than 1 horsepower and a 20mph speed limit is defined as class 1 ebike, to differentiate from other ebikes. It's an exception from other ebikes. Damage studies were done. Class 1 pedal-assist bikes are seen as a green way to travel.
> 
> Probably not as severe as a pro-lifer saying all-abortions-are-murder, but akin to saying if-you're-born-with-a-penis-you're-male, regarding concerns about gender-separated facility usage. Sad when the debate gets dragged down to a level of deeper stupidity, with counter-arguments being akin to feminists saying all-men-are-pigs, in response to how some want to keep their group "oppressed".


So anything can be anything. Brilliant. And none of the rest of your spew has anything to do with if an ebike is a bicycle or not unless you're trying to claim a class one ebike is a bicycle but a class two isn't? And nice comparison of ebike discussion to abortions, classy.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> So anything can be anything. Brilliant. And none of the rest of your spew has anything to do with if an ebike is a bicycle or not unless you're trying to claim a class one ebike is a bicycle but a class two isn't? And nice comparison of ebike discussion to abortions, classy.


Identifying a motor as a motor is delusional and simple logic is practically akin to hate speech. Catch up.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Aside from all your ridiculous comparative stretching, what do you call it when people want to pretend a motor isn't a motor?
> Simple illogic? And to you, that's sound reasoning?
> 
> They are different than regular bikes. Guess what makes distinguishes them; you get 1 try.
> ...


Are you being sarcastic?

Is what you're doing not bigotry? Does seeing a motor on a bike conjure images of potential disaster? Is it like seeing a person with a turban sharing a flight with you and suspecting them to be plane hijacking terrorist, due to recalling certain events in the past?

If humans stopped using their ability to discern differences, no longer able to recognize exceptions and treat them accordingly, would you not consider them to have a mental deficiency?

If you're not without mental deficiency, can't you answer those simple questions yourself? You're creating teen-level drama, willfully ignorant of the delicacy of word choice. You're like a kid who discovers a "bad word" like the N-word, R-word, and are using it to have fun to trigger others, before it becomes officially recognized as taboo or politically incorrect.

Motor-bike, moto, ebike... shouldn't need to explain to intelligent humans that a class 1 pedal-assist ebike shares way more in common with a bicycle than motor-bike, moped, etc. They are an exemption that shares the legal definition with other human-powered bicycles.

Bigotry is bigotry... why are you getting mad about it? Should I use the R-word for bigotry instead? Should I use the R-word for mental deficiency instead? Should I utilize word choice that is a bit more delicate, like "opinionated cyclist"? You seem to not like "anti-ebike" or purist.

If you haven't had good "luck" keeping relationships with people outside of your little social bubble, it might have something to do with a lack of delicacy in regards to word choice.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> Are you being sarcastic?
> 
> Is what you're doing not bigotry (AKA racism)? Does seeing a motor on a bike conjure images of potential disaster? Is it like seeing a person with a turban sharing a flight with you and suspecting them to be plane hijacking terrorist, due to recalling certain events in the past?
> 
> ...


So you believe calling an ebike an ebike is not only a sign of mental deficiency, but actually racist? And then you try to lecture about the 'delicacy of word choice'?

If you're not joking, you are one seriously screwed up individual. Get help.

If you could read and comprehend at any level, you would clearly see that I've been DEFENDING ebikers in this thread and over time. And that I've clearly said I don't have any issues with them. And that I support their gaining more access to historically human-powered trails. And that I'm a big fan of motorized recreation in general? You miss all that?

That doesn't mean I have to make the big leap to loony-land where I pretend they don't have motors that distinguish them from regular bicycles, or that motors are a race.

Whatever you're smoking, you should probably take it down a notch.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> Does seeing a motor on a bike conjure images of potential disaster?


Uh uh.
As you can see from these pics of my kid, we're super 'racist' against motors around my house. 
You nutjob.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Wow, this thread cratered. The air fryers have won!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> Wow, this thread cratered. The air fryers have won!


You racist against air fryers or something?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> You racist against air fryers or something?


No, they're the best invention since the safety bicycle.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> No, they're the best invention since the safety bicycle.


Agreed. Got one for Christmas and we use it more than the microwave now.
I do refer to the air as 'oil' though so as not to subject it to any bigotry.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> So you believe calling an ebike an ebike is not only a sign of mental deficiency, but actually racist? And then you try to lecture about the 'delicacy of word choice'?
> 
> If you're not joking, you are one seriously screwed up individual. Get help.
> 
> ...


You asked what the BFD was about calling ebikes simply ebikes.

You are a shining example of how crazy someone can become in order to ignore the distinction between class 1 emtb from other ebikes.

Is this a case of backfire effect? Offended by the truth/facts?

I'm not smoking anything. Do you think I'm not serious? What do you know about smoking? Why bring it up?

If you're serious, I can pick out the other things screwed up with you:

Are you trying to argue based on tu quoque (pointing out that someone is a hypocrite, therefore their argument is invalid)? I know about word delicacy. My response served as an example. I know about people with similar mental deficiencies. There are a variety of words I can use to refer to them. I can call them "single-issue voters". When describing something bad, higher accuracy is deemed harsher. The less accurate, the more it seems that everyone's guilty of it (less harsh). It's amusing that you seem to think it's intelligent to point out that I'm guilty of it. This is such a common issue that there are endless streams of drama stories/shows (mostly romance) about it.

Are you trying to establish moral credit (self/moral-licensing)? Because you claim to do something "benefiting", that you get a pass for questionable behavior? It's akin to saying you buy from black-owned businesses and spend a lot of time with black people, so you can call them the N-word in a friendly manner, without even realizing that calling them black is not PC.

Using a word that implies class 1 ebike, such as emtb, comes with a certain image. It's a bike with an electric motor that is essentially interchangeable in use with an mtb. People who do not like this notion do not like to use these terms, using ones that paint a different picture instead.

My post was a long way of saying your mind is swamped with alternative facts, lacking common sense (due to willfully ignoring the "mainstream" and "official" stance). You know, like the conspiracy theorists, QAnon, and creationists. You're one of those guys. They're the image of stupidity. How stupid do you think others are to not see your stance on emtb access? It's amusing that you believe it's an insult to me to imagine that I'm smoking something, and that interpreting my post in such a loony-land way is an insult. That's your poor comprehension and not my intention.

This is turning into a case of "emtb derangement syndrome". There will be definitions and alt-definitions to describe how crazy emtb supporters promote/defend emtbs, how crazy people get when opposing any support emtbs get, and how crazy people get when opposing each others' opposition.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Look out! Varaxis just called an emtb an emtb while they clearly self identify as bicycles! I think he may have caused an ebike to cry!

This thread has officially jumped the shark. Can I say that without sharks being offended?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> How stupid do you think others are to not see your stance on emtb access?


Pretty damn stupid. 
Actually, really damn stupid.

Rambling, hardly coherent, pseudo-psychological and self-aggrandizing stream of consciousness word salads aside, you for instance seem to be having a particularly tough time with it.

But please, do tell me what my stance is, you solipsistic kook.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

chazpat said:


> Look out! Varaxis just called an emtb an emtb while they clearly self identify as bicycles! I think he may have caused an ebike to cry!
> 
> This thread has officially jumped the shark. Can I say that without sharks being offended?


The sharks don't care. Fonzie might.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

This whole conversation reminds me of the story I heard about when the Catholics insisted that Beavers were fish so they could eat them during lent.

You can try and play word games all day long, public perception on this issue has long since settled.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Tomatoes are fruit, except when they're vegetables.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ogre said:


> This whole conversation reminds me of the story I heard about when the Catholics insisted that Beavers were fish so they could eat them during lent.
> 
> You can try and play word games all day long, public perception on this issue has long since settled.


Right. It's obvious everyone has come to agreement. That must be why no one ever comments on the subject. 
Is your point that some people insist on calling e-bikes bicycles so they can pretend they don't have motors when it comes to access? I guess we agree on that anyway.

In other news, referring to a motor as a motor is not just a sure sign of mental inferiority, it's racism.
And of course, I'm the one playing word games.

LOL! Okay, sure. ?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> Tomatoes are fruit, except when they're vegetables.


What about when they're ketchup?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> What about when they're ketchup?


It'd better be going onto currywurst.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

People acting jokingly stupid to cover up any semblance of real stupidity...

Regarding the tomato, there was an import tax on vegetables but not fruit. Tomato importer brought up a case that tomatoes are fruit. The Supreme Court deemed that they were vegetables at a culinary level, and that botany categorization didn't matter. There were other fruits didn't even qualify to be actual fruit when botanically defined (lacking seeds), and there were other vegetables that were fruit (zucchini, bell peppers, eggplants, string beans, cucumbers, avocado, and okra).

Hoverboards are ebikes in legal import terms.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> It'd better be going onto currywurst.


Careful, Varaxis might step in with some deep psychoanalytical insight regarding your blatant neo-Nazi dog-whistling.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Careful, Varaxis might step in with some deep psychoanalytical insight regarding your blatant neo-Nazi dog-whistling.


Well, since I was born in Hesse.. I'm pretty used to the ignorant calling me one. (which is actually really funny given the last few years)


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> People acting jokingly stupid to cover up any semblance of real stupidity...


People avoiding plainly answering a clear and direct question to protect their enormous yet fragile ego?


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

People who would've argued that tomatoes were found in the veggie section, and don't find them in fruit salads or hate the idea of fruit in their burger...

It's simple-minded to expect that such arguments open the door for people to argue that emtbs are found for sale in motorsports stores.

Keep pushing for simplification over wordy context and this is the garbage you get.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> Well, since I was born in Hesse.. I'm pretty used to the ignorant calling me one. (which is actually really funny given the last few years)


Ha - no ****?
I was born about an hour away in Landstuhl.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> What about when they're ketchup?


If Tomatoes are fruit, then it only stands to reason that Ketchup is then a smoothie.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> It's simple-minded to expect that such arguments open the door for people to argue that emtbs are found for sale in motorsports stores.


It was brought up in response to the argument that e-bikes are bicycles because you by them in bicycle shops not moto shops.
Even if true, that's silly. But of course, it's also clearly false.



Ogre said:


> That's why you buy an eMTB at your local bike shop and not Kawasaki. .


Still waiting for you to 'splain me my e-bike stance.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I'm saying that these semantics, logical fallacy, and oversimplified arguments are garbage. Pointing out tomatoes are fruit is like pointing out emtbs are motorbikes. Got people calling them mopeds. Based on how culture sees mopeds today, using the logic of motor-bike+pedals is akin to saying a cup of finely diced fruit is dessert, which leads to the question of tomato-based salsa being dessert when you take the logic too literally.

The way I comprehend Ogre's post is that culture creates the prevailing view. Just like culture considers the tomato to be like a vegetable and has it for sale in the veggie section, he insists that the primary buyers/users of emtbs are typical mtn bikers, primarily shopped for in bicycle-related shops, and that this culture has already been set. The argument is not simply about where these items are bought, but the cultural reasons behind why most search there.

It might be my confirmation bias though. I believe that the power of cultural influence is not to be underestimated. It's stubborn to die once introduced.

Your stance is questionable for those who want emtbs to retain their distinction of being a low/human-powered vehicle for access reasons. Your opinions seem so extreme to me that they seem sarcastic.

Without marketing, I expect that anyone with reason can see that a class 1 emtb has the same components as other mtbs with a motor+battery added, rather than a motorbike with the motor swapped to an electric one. Having simple restrictions on the motor is what made the similarity between class 1 ebike and bicycles legally official. You seem to wish for something a bit more generous/lenient. I'm envious of how the EU warmly welcomed ebikes, with one difference being their stricter definition (15.5 mph and 250W limit, rather than 20 mph and 750W). I'd rather have the welcome/access than the higher limits.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

SHM was a moderator (actually, mostly THE moderator) of this forum several years ago and hasn't changed his stance since then. He's all for eMTB's on trails by their own merits. Whether an eMTB is an exact lookalike for an MTB or not, and no matter what you call them, they're different. How anybody can't fathom that is unbelievable to me.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

fos'l said:


> SHM was a moderator (actually, mostly THE moderator) of this forum several years ago and hasn't changed his stance since then. He's all for eMTB's on trails by their own merits. Whether an eMTB is an exact lookalike for an MTB or not, and no matter what you call them, they're different. How anybody can't fathom that is unbelievable to me.


and fos'l was as well. Welcome back, fos'l, good to see you.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

Varaxis said:


> The way I comprehend Ogre's post is that culture creates the prevailing view. Just like culture considers the tomato to be like a vegetable and has it for sale in the veggie section, he insists that the primary buyers/users of emtbs are typical mtn bikers, primarily shopped for in bicycle-related shops, and that this culture has already been set. The argument is not simply about where these items are bought, but the cultural reasons behind why most search there.


Where else would you buy a bike? The supermarket?


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

fos'l said:


> SHM was a moderator (actually, mostly THE moderator) of this forum several years ago and hasn't changed his stance since then. He's all for eMTB's on trails by their own merits. Whether an eMTB is an exact lookalike for an MTB or not, and no matter what you call them, they're different. How anybody can't fathom that is unbelievable to me.


A hard tail is different from a single speed.

A full suspension bike is different from a hard tail.

A ebike is different from a full suspension bike.

A unicycle... well there are crazy people out there.

They are all bikes. Except for the unicycle. Because it only has one wheel thus "Uni" as opposed to "Bi"cycle.

It's not too hard a concept.

PS: If he didn't believe eMTBs were MTBs --- which is what is being claimed here --- then why was he moderating an eMTB forum on an MTB page?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> If you say so.
> 
> Or maybe not...


The Gas Gas is sweet!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

So, back to the OP. How long? The few that don’t will make bank for awhile , until the dark side catches up with the next generation.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> I've been DEFENDING ebikers in this thread and over time. And that I've clearly said I don't have any issues with them. And that I support their gaining more access to historically human-powered trails. And that I'm a big fan of motorized recreation in general?


This is a true statement.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Ogre said:


> Where else would you buy a bike? The supermarket?


Costco. Kickstarter/IndieGogo. Ikea. AMD? Porsche? Amazon. Alibaba.

Thrift store. Pawn shop. Police Auction.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

chazpat said:


> and fos'l was as well. Welcome back, fos'l, good to see you.


Thanks, I was the junior member of the team.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Ogre said:


> A hard tail is different from a single speed.
> 
> A full suspension bike is different from a hard tail.
> 
> ...


He and I were moderating because we were asked to do it. Apparently you didn't read my statement; the emphasis is on MTB's are different than eMTB's. This is my opinion; if yours differs, fine. You can make all the non-relevant analogies you want; doesn't change the fact that you have your opinion and I have mine. Nuff said as you head to ignore.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ogre said:


> A hard tail is different from a single speed.
> 
> A full suspension bike is different from a hard tail.
> 
> ...


Once again, a motorcycle is also a "bike", no one is arguing any different.

But they all are not "bicycles", that's the difference.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> So, back to the OP. How long? The few that don't will make bank for awhile , until the dark side catches up with the next generation.


As I mentioned earlier, there are a lot of players in on the game, bicycle manufacturers, motorcycle manufacturers, specialty ebike manufacturers, and they won't all survive. I know some people have predicted that ebikes will outsell bicycles, though due to cost, I doubt that is true though maybe it will be for emtb vs mtb. But I could see a big wave of super cheap crap ebikes becoming the Christmas gift of the year someday and sales hugely surging for a period.

To our European members (not sure any are following this thread): any idea how the split between emtbs and mtbs is in your country?

I think we need to consider that currently it seems most emtb buyers in the US are older riders, or at least well established mtb riders. But in the future, I imagine a lot of people will buy an ebike and never buy an actual bicycle.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

EKram said:


> from slimat99. "eBikes have the lobbying power behind them during these talks and standard MTBs are actually riding on the coat tails in many cases."
> 
> Name of eBike lobbyists? What is their agenda? Trail access? eBike industry? Who is paying them?


specialized
Trek
Giant
Yeti (soon)

just to name a couple. Your other questions seem to have obvious answers also.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> Costco. Kickstarter/IndieGogo. Ikea. AMD? Porsche? Amazon. Alibaba.
> 
> Thrift store. Pawn shop. Police Auction.


Moto shops.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Now we getting somewhere talking about eBike lobbyists. Thoughts:
We need them to push and find money for bike trail everything-bulid, maintain etc., with their lobby money and power.
We could get more and better trails for all users.
I believe the ebike arguments for and against are noted by the lobbyists-but they will get their agenda pushed through anyway. We can only hope it's beneficial and makes sense for allmof us.
Food for thought. eBikers on the paved trail or road.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fos'l said:


> He and I were moderating because we were asked to do it. Apparently you didn't read my statement; the emphasis is on MTB's are different than eMTB's. This is my opinion; if yours differs, fine. You can make all the non-relevant analogies you want; doesn't change the fact that you have your opinion and I have mine. Nuff said as you head to ignore.





fos'l said:


> Thanks, I was the junior member of the team.


More like the senior statesman and voice of reason. ?

At least compared to me; I was like a bull in the china shop of under-informed, over-emotional e-bikers.
I'd stick up for ebike access constantly, but as soon as I mentioned that yes, they actually DO have a motor, there would always be a handful of motor-denial nuts who would lose their minds and start doing all sorts of crazy comparative contortions to try to pretend the motor wasn't really there. Well, it's there, but it's not really a motor. Well, it is a motor, but you have a motor in your watch too, so it's the same thing...and on and on.

Actually, this thread is reminding me a lot of the good old days. ?


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Rob Roskopp (one of the founders of Santa Cruz) talks about older people buying E-bikes for various reasons. He also says that the "safe" answer about how many SC bikes will have a motor in 5 years is 50%. So definitely scratch SC off the list OP.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ogre said:


> PS: If he didn't believe eMTBs were MTBs --- which is what is being claimed here --- then why was he moderating an eMTB forum on an MTB page?


Do you believe a road bike is a mountain bike?
Commuter? CX? Gravel?

Of course not.
Then why are there subforums here for those, and why is anyone moderating them? 
Are you upset by that also?

C'mon man, at least think about what you're posting, even just a little bit.

.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

ocnLogan said:


> If Tomatoes are fruit, then it only stands to reason that Ketchup is then a smoothie.


Incorrect! Clearly it would be a jam. Smoothies can also be made of vegetables.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

EKram said:


> Now we getting somewhere talking about eBike lobbyists. Thoughts:
> We need them to push and find money for bike trail everything-bulid, maintain etc., with their lobby money and power.
> We could get more and better trails for all users.


Here's a great example of what you're talking about.

_"When someone like Greg Williams tells you that you should really hurry up and make an e-bike you pay attention.

Greg was the visionary that put Downieville on the map for mountain bikers. Santa Cruz Bicycles have been supporting Greg Williams since 1993, first by supplying him with first generations Tazmons and then Heckler emtb's for his shuttle business, then supporting the Downieville Classic for many years, helping seed fund the Sierra Buttes Trail Stewardship and then donating and fundraising every year to keep the dream of creating sustainable communities through recreational trail development alive."





_


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> Your opinions seem so extreme to me that they seem sarcastic.


My "opinion" that e-bikes have a motor is "extreme"?
That's the entire point of their existence. 
It's not an "opinion".

I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong if you can show me an e-bike without one. 
Otherwise, I'm just going to keep making you look silly. 
Deal?


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Varaxis said:


> Your opinions seem so extreme to me that they seem sarcastic.


My F-150 self-identifies as a Prius.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

EKram said:


> Now we getting somewhere talking about eBike lobbyists. Thoughts:
> We need them to push and find money for bike trail everything-bulid, maintain etc., with their lobby money and power.
> We could get more and better trails for all users.


Around here (MA) trail building and advocacy is almost completely grass roots and volunteer driven.
We see almost no support from any companies/orgs aside from local ones.

IME, the whole 'the bike industry will support your trails and help you build more' is mostly a pipe dream.

The only 'big' non-local company that regularly kicks in has been Kona, all the way from WA.
(Interestingly enough, even though NEMBA doesn't specifically advocate for e-bikes, you'll see a local e-bike business up at the top of the donor list too.)






|







www.nemba.org


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

These types of threads always cracks me up! Unfortunately for the OP, your choices of bike companies to choose from will be very limited as just about all the bike companies are scrambling to get an ebike to market. Their business is booming and I doubt they'll miss you one bit

And the anti-ebike crowd always crack me up! I've got plenty of friends that had the exact view anti-ebike crowd have, that are now happily riding ebikes! To my fellow ebike riders, just a few tips: ignore the obvious trolling, keep that smile on your face every time you're on the ebike. Know that within a few years, most of these anti-ebikers will be on ebikes and this is just a fact! 

Locking thread


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