# Death By Veganism



## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html?_r=2


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Sounds more like death by idiot parents than veganism. 

I'm not a doctor so I don't know the feasibility of that lifestyle and a baby, but I do know that some vitamins don't get to the baby via breastmilk regardless of the mothers diet. For example, with my baby we were told to supplement with Tri-Vi-Sol to provide Vitamin D (don't want them rickets). If I had that lifestyle I would be sure to consult with my pediatrician regarding the way I live, and how to best care for my baby. But I'm not an idiot parent so there you have it


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Also, holy old article, bat man.


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Can vegans be vampires?


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

I once read somewhere that the animal whose digestive system most closely resembles a human's digestive system is a tiger. I wouldn't be surprised if this is true!

I would shrivel up and die miserably if all I could eat were plants. :nono:

*LONG LIVE CARNIVORES!!!*

Scott

PS - Yes, I'm opposed to large-scale animal farming where the animals live their whole lives in cruel and inhumane conditions, only to be killed and eaten. But that is a DIFFERENT ISSUE than the question of "Should humans eat meat?" (Vegans too often confuse these two issues.)


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## Thor29 (May 12, 2005)

Check out the book "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Kieth. It's got a few problems, but it's an interesting read. Personally, I think most Americans eat way too much meat. I like to eat vegan/vegetarian most of the time with a bit o' meat a few times a week at most. Works for me.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

If we weren't supposed to eat animals, they would not taste so good.


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## giantbikeboy (Dec 3, 2004)

^^^^^what he said^^^^^


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

As AZ already kind of said above,

If God hadn't intended for us to eat animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

We have a saying around the house;

If you find something you like don't look at it too closely. It is probably bad for you and will kill you ultimately. That seems to be the luck of the draw with diet.


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

does anyone else think from a moral standpoint that is wrong? sure, i think it is fine to be vegan or whatever you want but only if you choose to.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

AZ.MTNS said:


> If we weren't supposed to eat animals, they would not taste so good.


This.
It takes thousands of years for animals (or humans) to change/adapt/whatever you want to call it. We've been eating meat for a long time, no need to change now.
Moderation, sure, most people probably don't need a 20 oz steak once a week, but geez, no need to go overboard with the idea.

I would rather ride my bike through vegetation instead of eating only it & no meat :thumbsup:


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

Thor29 said:


> Check out the book "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Kieth. It's got a few problems, but it's an interesting read. Personally, I think most Americans eat way too much meat. I like to eat vegan/vegetarian most of the time with a bit o' meat a few times a week at most. Works for me.


I did this cultural exchange in France for a few weeks a few summers ago. My host family was your standard rural French farm family, and we had a meat dish at every single meal. There was a lot of pork. And duck. And there just happened to be a family of ducks and a family of pigs on the farm too. :thumbsup:

I do think that Americans eat too much red meat though. As the bio teacher for whom I TA said, "If you can kill it with your bare hands, it's yours to eat."


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

RIS said:


> As AZ already kind of said above,
> 
> If God hadn't intended for us to eat animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat.


Dude, that is friggin Hillarious

:smilewinkgrin:


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

Eh. Old article and very rare occurrence. I think type II diabetes in children is worse.


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

Organibal Lecter-- he eats vegans and waifs..hangs out out @ Whole(paycheck)Foods. will approach your hybrid. ...I've seen him.


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

Dion said:


> Eh. Old article and very rare occurrence. I think type II diabetes in children is worse.


So go from one unhealthy lifestyle to the next? that makes no sense, but by all means, its your life make the decisions you want for YOUR family.
Myself I can do better but I eat a balanced diet with emphasis on what our bodies have lived on for thosuands of years, Meat, veggies, fruits, nuts, women.


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## dead_dog_canyon (Sep 8, 2010)

I’m at a trade show – last in line for a Philly Cheese Steak.

A hippy looking 20yr old wanders up behind me and says:
‘Man that smells good’.

After a pause, he says:
‘I can’t eat that, I’m a vegan – people aren’t supposed to eat meat…’

Me:
‘Then why does it smell good?’


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

Why would anyone want to live forever eating granola? The secret to a long and happy life is moderation.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

Meh..

I've been a vegetarian (ovo lacto) for over 8 years. Works fine for me. Eat whatever makes you happy.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

Circlip said:


> Meh..
> 
> I've been a vegetarian (ovo lacto) for over 8 years. Works fine for me. Eat whatever makes you happy.


I rescind my previous comment. You are correct. Freedom comes first.


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

For every animal you don't eat, I'll eat two.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

I'm not a vegan, or even a strict vegatarian, but I know quite a few vegans and thy are all healthy, fit, as happy as anyone folks. 

One thing that has me eating less meant is learning about the whole industrial meat production system. It's really hard to feel good about eating meat when you see where the large majority of it comes from. :shocked: Nasty chit man.


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## TRAUMAhead (Aug 26, 2007)

Circlip said:


> Meh..
> 
> I've been a vegetarian (ovo lacto) for over 8 years. Works fine for me. Eat whatever makes you happy.


Do you have super powers?


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

pesticides & steroids it's a nice cocktail, eh?


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

zrm said:


> I'm not a vegan, or even a strict vegatarian, but I know quite a few vegans and thy are all healthy, fit, as happy as anyone folks.
> 
> One thing that has me eating less meant is learning about the whole industrial meat production system. It's really hard to feel good about eating meat when you see where the large majority of it comes from. :shocked: Nasty chit man.


No argument here, thats why I hunt, I like to know where my meat came from.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

TRAUMAhead said:


> Do you have super powers?


Of course. Don't you?


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

Blurr said:


> So go from one unhealthy lifestyle to the next? that makes no sense, but by all means, its your life make the decisions you want for YOUR family.
> Myself I can do better but I eat a balanced diet with emphasis on what our bodies have lived on for thosuands of years, Meat, veggies, fruits, nuts, women.


You're not getting my post. People get all up in arms about this stuff, peanut allergies, 3rd hand smoke, plastic toy poisoning... and none of that even compares to the crap diets people feed their kids and ultimately the consequences of such diets.

All that zero nutrition frozen food, sugary drinks (like Capri-Sun), Go-Gurt, and even low cost cafeteria food, etc. all leads to childhood obesity, type II diabetes and other health issues. You're still killing your kid - it's just taking longer.

Heart disease is the #1 killer in the States - mainly diet and excercise related. Kids are morbidly obese and they are dying a slow death.

Put things in perspective, people. I have witnessed this scene dozens of times in my clients' homes, especially my Latino clients.

So, tragically a child dies from veganism, as tragically a child dies from drowning, a bicycle wreck or suffocation on a plastic bag. Very uncommon in comparison to the slow killing of some kids.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

Mrwhlr said:


> For every animal you don't eat, I'll eat two.


Someone has to pick up the slack so that we don't have cows and chickens overrunning our metropolitan areas. Thanks for doing your part.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Thor29 said:


> Check out the book "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Kieth. It's got a few problems, but it's an interesting read. Personally, I think most Americans eat way too much meat. I like to eat vegan/vegetarian most of the time with a bit o' meat a few times a week at most. Works for me.


I think you hit the nail on the head. In addition to too much meat, we are eating bad meat. The overwhelming majority of beef that we eat is corn fed, which is not natural. Cows digestive systems are made to process grass. When you compare corn fed beef to grass fed, you find the corn fed has much higher saturated fat and fewer omega 3s. Part of the problem is corn fed tastes better because it has much more fat, so people prefer it, and it also is cheaper to produce.

It is also near impossible to find chicken that is pasture raised, eating its natural foods. When you can find it, it is about 3x as expensive as "organic" chicken. Same goes with farm raised v. wild fish.

It is possible to be a vegan and have a fully balanced diet. My sister, who is an MD, has been on the raw diet for more than 3 years. She is very careful to make sure she gets all the proper nutrients, but it takes a lot of time to be on a raw diet. I would say she and her husband spent 2-3 hours a day on food preparation and cultivation.

Finally, as others mentioned, we eat way to much processed and frozen food. I am fortunate that my fiance was a profession chef in a former life. I have learned from her that we can make fast, fresh food without taking too much time. My 7 year old son has commented about how the food we serve is much better tasting than the premade food his mom heats up in the microwave. If you keep it simple, things like a vegetable with a lean protein, you can kick out dinner in half an hour a night.


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## Mike Aswell (Sep 1, 2009)

Blurr said:


> No argument here, thats why I hunt, I like to know where my meat came from.


^This...the only meat I eat is fish and venison. Which I hunt, humanely, off of my own property. I generally try to eat wild caught fish though will admit to eating farm raised fish too. If prepared correctly, the key being NOT overdone, I'll take venison over beef any day in the taste department. And on top of the health benefits (venison is lean), I can live with humanely harvesting 1 or 2 deer per year off of private property where they are plentiful.


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

CDMC said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head. In addition to too much meat, we are eating bad meat. The overwhelming majority of beef that we eat is corn fed, which is not natural. Cows digestive systems are made to process grass. When you compare corn fed beef to grass fed, you find the corn fed has much higher saturated fat and fewer omega 3s. Part of the problem is corn fed tastes better because it has much more fat, so people prefer it, and it also is cheaper to produce.


 Partially true but a soley grassfed beef does not taste quit as good as one that has had some grain/corn, idealy you should let a beef hang after slaughter but we do not do that anymore and that is sad. however I am completely against all the extra crap fed, we should reform the way we farm/ranch in this country for sure.



> It is possible to be a vegan and have a fully balanced diet. My sister, who is an MD, has been on the raw diet for more than 3 years. She is very careful to make sure she gets all the proper nutrients, but it takes a lot of time to be on a raw diet. I would say she and her husband spent 2-3 hours a day on food preparation and cultivation.


 sure with suppliments, however suppliments are never as good as the real thing, now the real problem is with the children who are not quit as healthy as others, that is not to say of course that over all non vegans do a good job, because Westerners have a very unhealthy diet now days and that has to end.



> Finally, as others mentioned, we eat way to much processed and frozen food. I am fortunate that my fiance was a profession chef in a former life. I have learned from her that we can make fast, fresh food without taking too much time. My 7 year old son has commented about how the food we serve is much better tasting than the premade food his mom heats up in the microwave. If you keep it simple, things like a vegetable with a lean protein, you can kick out dinner in half an hour a night.


:thumbsup:


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Blurr said:


> Partially true but a soley grassfed beef does not taste quit as good as one that has had some grain/corn, idealy you should let a beef hang after slaughter but we do not do that anymore and that is sad. however I am completely against all the extra crap fed, we should reform the way we farm/ranch in this country for sure.
> 
> sure with suppliments, however suppliments are never as good as the real thing, now the real problem is with the children who are not quit as healthy as others, that is not to say of course that over all non vegans do a good job, because Westerners have a very unhealthy diet now days and that has to end.
> 
> :thumbsup:


I haven't had a mixed grassfed and corn raised beef, I will have to see if I can find some. It is amazing how much different grass fed is. When you cook with ground grassfed, you have to season it differently. Dry aged beef is wonderful, and worth finding. Cryovack stinks.

I have never spoken with my sister about vegan diets and kids, as she has no children. I know that she has expressed reservations about feeding children soy products and has told me she would avoid them as while not conclusive, there is research that has found that soy is not good for kids.

Advertising isn't helping US eating habits, when scrolling back through this thread, what do I find at the top, this ad:


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

CDMC said:


> I haven't had a mixed grassfed and corn raised beef, I will have to see if I can find some. It is amazing how much different grass fed is. When you cook with ground grassfed, you have to season it differently. Dry aged beef is wonderful, and worth finding. Cryovack stinks.


 I grew up raising cattle so had all I could handle, and btw, I mean lightly grain fed, the fat helps give the cow taste when hanging, butchering is also important, meat tastes better when the animal never had time to run and get I believe its the amino acids built up in its system, so I dealy we would just tie it up and bam in the head with a 4lb hammer, yums, droool yum.



> I have never spoken with my sister about vegan diets and kids, as she has no children. I know that she has expressed reservations about feeding children soy products and has told me she would avoid them as while not conclusive, there is research that has found that soy is not good for kids.


I have seen the soy thing lately, but to be fair, eggs and meat and just about everything are bad, good, bad good, bad good, I think as long as everything in moderation life is alright.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Blurr said:


> I think as long as everything in moderation life is alright.


Dr. Dean O'Dell had a book out called "Eat, Drink, and be Merry". While he has been a vegetarian, he is very clear, vegetarian, meat eater, etc., the issue is moderation and regular exercise.


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## rmi (Jan 14, 2010)

My pregnant wife and I are (ovo-lacto) vegetarians. She has been for 16 years and I have been for 10 years. We are both lean and healthy, I think. When our kid is old enough to make his.her own decisions, we hope that he/she (we find out sex in a couple weeks) chooses responsibly.

I understand that some feel the need to kill to eat, but support those who won't.

Ryan


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## wizzer16 (Sep 9, 2010)

this is an interesting thread. My total love and addiction to being outside and hunting every game animal thats worth putting on the table supplies me with 2-3 healthy deer, 1-2 plump turkey, and maybe a handful of pheasants/grouse/rabbits. I use venison in everything from burgers to hamburger(venison) helper. I usually get the ground venison mixed with about 20% lean beef. eating from the land is both fun and unbelievably satifying! I have heard that vension is about 10% the fat of beef. what are the canine teeth for?


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## rmi (Jan 14, 2010)

wizzer16 said:


> what are the canine teeth for?


This statement confuses the issue. Vegetarians don't discount the fact that humans have evolved as omnivores and are capable of eating meat.

Ryan


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

rmi said:


> This statement confuses the issue. Vegetarians don't discount the fact that humans have evolved as omnivores and are capable of eating meat.
> 
> Ryan


Not all of them. I've met some truly wacked ones who do believe humans are not built to process meat.

As for me, I strongly prefer avoiding feedlot beef, but it's not always viable or possible. Sometimes cost is a factor, but so is availability for some. I'm lucky to live 2 miles away from an organic grass fed beef ranch. I'm lucky to live somewhere that venison is widely available. I am slowly weaning myself off of unhealthy meats. My wife just found someone with her own jersey cows who is GIVING us the raw milk (from pasture fed jersey cows) because otherwise she just dumps the extra.

I would keep my own chickens for food (eggs and meat), but cannot currently care for a flock. However, my next home purchase will have space for a flock of chickens and a small herd of milk goats. I already stock a freezer with venison.

Dietary analyses have been done on animal products from animals eating what they're intended, and grass fed beef is healthier than feedlot beef. Free range chicken and eggs are healthier than caged. Milk from cows that graze on the pasture is healthier. Etc, etc. Factory-farming animals is definitely not the answer when considering health.

Back to the OP, it certainly is irresponsible to feed children restrictive vegan diets and whatnot. If anything, kids need MORE protein than adults and giving them animal products is the best way to do it. Soy is a whole 'nother issue. Seems that soy products are full of plant estrogens, so that can create problems with early maturation in girls and ESPECIALLY problems with boys/men. I will have a little soy here and there, but I'm careful I don't eat too much of it.


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## wizzer16 (Sep 9, 2010)

rmi said:


> This statement confuses the issue. Vegetarians don't discount the fact that humans have evolved as omnivores and are capable of eating meat.
> 
> Ryan


Im not saying that vegetrains deny the fact.I am not opposed to a vegitarian lifestyle. I think it is possible to not eat meat and be in perfect healthy. That being said i dont think that being vegan gives enough avenues for a person to be healthy without loads of suppliments. I can see why people would choose to not eat meat and i have not problem with that. as others have said there can be a good balance in diet with much less red meat.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

wizzer16 said:


> Im not saying that vegetrains deny the fact.I am not opposed to a vegitarian lifestyle. I think it is possible to not eat meat and be in perfect healthy. That being said i dont think that being vegan gives enough avenues for a person to be healthy without loads of suppliments. I can see why people would choose to not eat meat and i have not problem with that. as others have said there can be a good balance in diet with much less red meat.


Sure. There can be wide variations in the overall quality of a vegetarian diet, and same with eating meat. It's all in the implementation, just like there's no way to say that all horst link frames ride well, while all single pivot frames ride poorly. I think most of us, including yourself, are saying the same thing here.

My wife and I are vegetarians. My 13 year old daughter started same recently, and we'll support her along either path. My 10 year old son felt like chicken as part of his dinner last night, so that's what I cooked for him. No biggie.


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

Circlip said:


> There can be wide variations in the overall quality of a vegetarian diet, and same with eating meat.


A diet of only deep fried Twinkies and French fries and milk shakes is vegetarian, but that don't mean it's good for you. :thumbsup:


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

erik1245 said:


> A diet of only deep fried Twinkies and French fries and milk shakes is vegetarian, but that don't mean it's good for you. :thumbsup:


The items you have listed may not be as vegetarian as you think.


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

Circlip said:


> The items you have listed may not be as vegetarian as you think.


Alright then, it's a large smoothie from Jamba Juice. Happy?


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

erik1245 said:


> Alright then, it's a large smoothie from Jamba Juice. Happy?


OK, I'm happy now dammit. 

Seems I've been thrown to the wolves as the sole keeper of the flame in this thread on behalf of veggies worldwide. Oh well...


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## wizzer16 (Sep 9, 2010)

Circlip said:


> OK, I'm happy now dammit.
> 
> Seems I've been thrown to the wolves as the sole keeper of the flame in this thread on behalf of veggies worldwide. Oh well...


naw. I love my veggies...when they are eaten by a nice fat doe and converted into a juicy backstrap.:thumbsup:

but on a serious note i think i might try and veg for a week or two. i have never really concidered it but id like to see what effects i will notice. do you eat alot of eggs and nuts for your protein?


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## longfinkillie (Jan 28, 2011)

Seems I've been thrown to the wolves as the sole keeper of the flame in this thread on behalf of veggies worldwide. Oh well...[/QUOTE]

Present! I was busy grazing in the grass for succulents. Been a vegetarian for almost a decade. No problems here. Even though, I do like how carnivores go nuts when there's a veggie around...and I thought the vegetarians were supposed to be the ones easily spooked-not vice versa.

Just hafta say to all my vegetarian brethren, keep those antlers held up high!


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

wizzer16 said:


> naw. I love my veggies...when they are eaten by a nice fat doe and converted into a juicy backstrap.:thumbsup:


Ha - Nice!



wizzer16 said:


> but on a serious note i think i might try and veg for a week or two. i have never really concidered it but id like to see what effects i will notice. do you eat alot of eggs and nuts for your protein?


Might be interesting to try, even if you are fully intending to end the experiment a couple of weeks later anyhow. Not that I have any formal training or knowledge here, but I'm guessing 2 weeks isn't really enough to experience any real changes, other than how you feel in the moment with it perhaps being more challenging to feel satisfied with your meal. Maybe go half way and plan a little meat-based celebration at the mid-way point to set you up for another week of abstinence?

Common sources of protein for me are;

- beans
- eggs
- dairy such as yoghurt, cottage cheese, etc.
- nuts and nut butter
- grains like quinoa, which apparently has quite a good amino acid kick for a plant-based source
- every so often some of the stuff I eat has a bit of soy content also, but it's certainly not a large component of my diet
- lots of other items have little bits of protein that add up

I plan ahead so that the majority of my meals have at least 2, or sometimes more of the above. It's not as difficult as it sounds, just requires a bit of thinking. It's not the same no- brainer as fitting in a serving of meat though.

Most meals I focus on the protein component as described above, then make sure I've got mostly veggies, sometimes fruit. The carbohydrate aspect seems to take care of itself i.e. it's always in there somewhere unless a person is trying very deliberately to avoid it.

I don't really have the time to get as deep into it as some other people. Maintaining an interesting, varied, tasty, high quality vegetarian diet day after day is actually a bit of a challenge. Sometimes I slide a bit on any of those criteria, usually in the variation end of things (easy to just go back to my staple meals instead of figuring out how to always be making new stuff) but that's the same with most people's food intake I suppose.

There's nothing to prove that it's made any positive impact on my life (I can't be a single-person double-blind study) and it's always possible I may have done just as well or better with a diet including meat. However, just taking it as absolute value, in 8 years as a vegetarian my weight and appearance are stable, I've enjoyed many lengthy spells of excellent health - not even common colds - and had some pretty cool achievements on the high performance side of things while racing. Maybe not related at all to the veggie vs. meat issue. Who knows?


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)




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## Soya (Jun 22, 2007)

Paging Monogod....


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

I expected a better response in a vegan bashing thread by somone called Soya?!

Another happy vegi here.
Just another proof that newspapers miss the point intentionally to sell a story.
The reason the kids died was not that he was vegan, but that the parents were negligent and didn't give him a healthy balanced diet.

I meet a lot of vegis who cut meat out of their diet and do not replace it with anything, therefore are weak and unhealthy. They are just like the meat eaters who do not have a balanced diet, or vegans who do not have a balanced diet.
It is not the belief system, but it's poor application.

I am healthy, not because I am vegi, but because I have a healthy balanced diet.

regarding super powers, I can fly, but only when on my bike =-)


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## bronx (Jun 3, 2009)

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."

Mahatma Gandhi, statesman and philosopher:thumbsup:


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## longfinkillie (Jan 28, 2011)

"I thought of that while riding my bicycle. Turns out biking is good for the soul and the mind."

Albert Einstein-Vegetarian.


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## Soya (Jun 22, 2007)

CaveGiant said:


> I expected a better response in a vegan bashing thread by somone called Soya?!


Just referencing monogod's ridiculous vegan arguments from back in the day.


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