# Turbo Levo FSR Drivetrain Upgrades: 30t NW Chainring + 160mm Cranks



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

My wife loves her Levo, but sometimes the gearing is a tad tall for technical climbing. I thought about getting an 11-46 cassette, but I had the chainring lying around. Got a new black 30t if anyone's interested. Stock chainring is 32t.

The chainring swap requires a special socket and a cog puller to remove the spider, fit is tight due to the chainring offset, so the motor cover needs to be shaved down, the chain guide shim should be removed, and the chain needs to be shortened. 

I hate pedal strikes, they're annoying and hazardous. I have been riding 165mm Eagle GX on my big bike, my wife is a couple inches shorter than me so I decided on 160mm cranks for her. The Levo FSR men's large uses 170mm cranks.

The Levo uses an ISIS spindle, which is common to unicycles and trials bikes. There are a ton of ISIS trials cranks, I went with a Jitsi 160mm 7075 forged, 33mm offset, $65 shipped from Webcyclery in Bend OR.

Having spent a lot of time riding off road unicycles, I'm very comfortable on short cranks, down to 125mm on a 36er. I'm a big advocate for running shorter cranks on bikes since the advent of wide range cassettes. 

A 160mm crank might sound wierd, but the improved efficiency and reduced leg movement are worth experiencing. If the 160's work well, then we're gonna try 150!

Swapping cranks is easy on the Levo, all you need is a pedal wrench and an allen wrench. Be sure and grease the threads a bit before reassembly.

Enjoy!


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

An interesting article on crank arm length
What's the best crank length on an E-MTB? | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

eFat said:


> An interesting article on crank arm length
> What's the best crank length on an E-MTB? | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine


Yup. Notice the "best choice", 160mm.

The q factors is zero on the cranks they used (Mirinda), sadly it's tough finding cranks without offset in the states. The cranks used on the Levos have ~35mm offset, which is not necessary as the gap between the crank arm and chainstay is over 1/2".


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

We'll, I'm honestly surprised this thread didn't get more attention. 

Chainring and crank length changes on the most popular ebike, improving performance without tweaking the electrical system.

and it's crickets... an entire forum ate up with arguments over how, when, and where an ebike should be ridden, how we definitely ebikes, but no one cares about making the "bikes" better.

As the current Commander in Chief often says: "so sad".


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

You kinda lost me once you started mentioning off-road unicycles


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> We'll, I'm honestly surprised this thread didn't get more attention.
> 
> Chainring and crank length changes on the most popular ebike, improving performance without tweaking the electrical system.
> 
> ...


Hahahahahaha!!! Your impatience for instant thread gratification has been duly noted! ;-)

Some of us are too intensely working on PT, trail-crew leader class, and morning rides again to live here. Sorry.

Replaced 11-42 Shimano with 11-46 SunRace (better gear spacing than Shimano 11-46) on Powerfly to get granny low enough for me to climb really-steep stuff.

I don't like long crank arms with my 29" inseam. Found the crank-arm article some months ago, but my Q-factor measurements vs. Trek vs. Miranda specs all disagree. Grrr...

So, until I find some reality & order the correct-for-me arms for my Powerfly, I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot by helping all of YOU get to them first.  Yes, they are hard to get in America.

Less leg movement & less pedal strikes should be a win-win. 

Once I have 'em & ride, I'll report details.

Catfish ...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Not impatient for a response, not really surprised either, just noting the lack of interest in a thread that is adding value without causing conflict.

The ebike forum is not anywhere near what it could be, very atypical posts and posters compared to the many other forums.

Yes, low Q cranks are necessary for ebikes due to the wide motor box. Miranda or similar are good.

Enjoy your class.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

AGarcia said:


> You kinda lost me once you started mentioning off-road unicycles


Unicycles and trials bike use ISIS cranks, like ebikes, so they are a source of cranks.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Nurse Ben said:


> Unicycles and trials bike use ISIS cranks, like ebikes, so they are a source of cranks.


That is good to know! Thanks for the info man, the crank arm length for my Yamaha ebike haven't been a problem me but it would be nice to try a shorter one.


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> ...
> Yes, low Q cranks are necessary for ebikes due to the wide motor box. Miranda or similar are good.
> Enjoy your class.


Thanks for the webcyclery reference. Looked at what's available & the q-factors are a little wider than the Mirandas that Bosch uses. Got me to digging deeper. Still can not find a Miranda crank dealer in the USA, but Miranda now has an online parts site!
(https://www.mirandabikestore.com/cr...rface_isis/109-q_factor-q_16/113-length-160mm)

That's the 160mm cranks I ordered last night. Shipping from Portugal, so we'll see how long that takes.

Looking forward to the trying these! 

The MBoSC trail crew leader class has been great! Except for the poison oak. D'OH!!!

Catfish ...


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## boogsie (Oct 20, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> My wife loves her Levo, but sometimes the gearing is a tad tall for technical climbing. I thought about getting an 11-46 cassette, but I had the chainring lying around. Got a new black 30t if anyone's interested. Stock chainring is 32t.
> 
> The chainring swap requires a special socket and a cog puller to remove the spider, fit is tight due to the chainring offset, so the motor cover needs to be shaved down, the chain guide shim should be removed, and the chain needs to be shortened.
> 
> ...


Having trouble finding 160mm cranks here in Aus for my Levo, are these the ones you bought NurseBen ?

https://webcyclery.com/product/jitsie-forged-cranks-4710.htm
Cheers


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Yes, the Jitsia cranks are way to wide, increase q factor by an inch, ~5" width between pedals.

Last night I mounted up the Miranda Delta 0 Standard Cranks, they are 10mm Q, which increase the distance bewteen the pedals to 4", so really not a great option unless you like fat bike riding. Miranda makes zero Q cranks, but none in 160mm.

For the Australians or anyone who feels like ordering across the pond, these Koxx cranks are zero Q, I've used them on unicyles: K1 AL7075 cranks Black 160mm - UDCA Pty Ltd t/as Unicycle.Com Australia

Even with the 160mm cranks, the pedal clearance is terrible. I suppose they designed the Levo with a low bb to keep the COG low, but man it is one pedal smashing machine!

I just ordered some unicycle cranks in a 150mm, they are zero Q, so if they don't rub the motor housing or the chainstays, they may be an option for those into really short cranks. https://www.unicycle.com/copy-of-nimbus-vcx-isis-cranks-150mm/



boogsie said:


> Having trouble finding 160mm cranks here in Aus for my Levo, are these the ones you bought NurseBen ?
> 
> https://webcyclery.com/product/jitsie-forged-cranks-4710.htm
> Cheers


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I'd cancel that order, I have these cranks installed now, the Q is too high, increases distance between pedals to four inches!. Anything more than zero Q will increase the distance between pedals over stock.



motocatfish said:


> Thanks for the webcyclery reference. Looked at what's available & the q-factors are a little wider than the Mirandas that Bosch uses. Got me to digging deeper. Still can not find a Miranda crank dealer in the USA, but Miranda now has an online parts site!
> (https://www.mirandabikestore.com/cr...rface_isis/109-q_factor-q_16/113-length-160mm)
> 
> That's the 160mm cranks I ordered last night. Shipping from Portugal, so we'll see how long that takes.
> ...


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## boogsie (Oct 20, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yes, the Jitsia cranks are way to wide, increase q factor by an inch, ~5" width between pedals.
> 
> Last night I mounted up the Miranda Delta 0 Standard Cranks, they are 10mm Q, which increase the distance bewteen the pedals to 4", so really not a great option unless you like fat bike riding. Miranda makes zero Q cranks, but none in 160mm.
> 
> ...


Cheers for the reply mate and info. Might just research which airshaft i need to increase fork travel to lift BB. Have a 29er up front at moment which is perfect for eliminating pedal strikes though keen to try out the fatter 27.5 plus tyres again now summer is here and trails are all pea gravel.


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## Twimby (Jun 27, 2013)

boogsie said:


> Cheers for the reply mate and info. Might just research which airshaft i need to increase fork travel to lift BB. Have a 29er up front at moment which is perfect for eliminating pedal strikes though keen to try out the fatter 27.5 plus tyres again now summer is here and trails are all pea gravel.


As soon as you said Pea Gravel, I figured we are from the same part of the world.
I have a SJ Fattie 6, basically a Levo without the motor. 
I was running the Vee Trax Fatty 3.25 last summer. Fit no worries, but found them a bit slow and harder to pedal. Nice and grippy.
E-bike would make the slow part irrelevant. I think it lifted the bike some 6mm over the stock tyres.

How has the reception been to the Levo up in the hills?


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## boogsie (Oct 20, 2011)

cool, will check out the vee trax. i did like the 3"tyres in the Valley,hands defiantly less numb thru the chunder, not so much on Kalamunda trails, still good but less precise than thinner tyres. Plus i ride local at Manning Park , sandy but grand on fattys.
Reception much better in the hills are a few DH guys had a go, ragged it at first then rode it and could see the potential for more DH runs. Im half on Trance and half on Levo. Not so much fun for mates when someone is on an ebike. 
That new Meat Power is looking damn good btw.



Twimby said:


> As soon as you said Pea Gravel, I figured we are from the same part of the world.
> I have a SJ Fattie 6, basically a Levo without the motor.
> I was running the Vee Trax Fatty 3.25 last summer. Fit no worries, but found them a bit slow and harder to pedal. Nice and grippy.
> E-bike would make the slow part irrelevant. I think it lifted the bike some 6mm over the stock tyres.
> ...


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## Twimby (Jun 27, 2013)

boogsie said:


> cool, will check out the vee trax. i did like the 3"tyres in the Valley,hands defiantly less numb thru the chunder, not so much on Kalamunda trails, still good but less precise than thinner tyres. Plus i ride local at Manning Park , sandy but grand on fattys.
> Reception much better in the hills are a few DH guys had a go, ragged it at first then rode it and could see the potential for more DH runs. Im half on Trance and half on Levo. Not so much fun for mates when someone is on an ebike.
> That new Meat Power is looking damn good btw.


I was probably on the negative side, until I had a full run on one a few weeks ago.
Just ordered a Merinda yesterday. Will be a good addition to the quiver with the Stumpy and Fatboy.
I live North of the River, tried to ride Manning Park once when I was down that way, but could not seem to find many tracks. Probably was in the wrong spot.


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## boogsie (Oct 20, 2011)

Meant meta power ebike. 
Mate I bought levo from has merida, bastard loves it and doesn't ride his other levo anymore ?
Extra travel up front always handy.
Manning Park you need a guide, let me know when, though definitely not the best time of yr now.
Couple of links of Manning Park, soon to be a mtb park if all goes well.
Sorry hijacking thread fellas ?


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'd cancel that order, I have these cranks installed now, the Q is too high, increases distance between pedals to four inches!. Anything more than zero Q will increase the distance between pedals over stock.


I understand your concern with your change in q-factor, but the Miranda Delta 0 cranks I ordered are the same model & q-factor (Q:16 stated & measured) as my Trek Powerfly/Bosch CX came with. Just 160mm length vs 170mm stock.

For grins I poorly measured outside pedal to outside pedal on Powerfly (15.75") to my Hightower (15") with same VP Aim pedals. I don't seem to notice that difference.

However, the 20.5" width of my Beta 520RS pegs are noticeable after pedaling. ;-)

But a unicycle with q:0 would be much narrower, huh?

Catfish ...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Okay, I thought you had a Levo. Specialized uses s zero q crank from Praxis. The uni cranks should fit.



motocatfish said:


> I understand your concern with your change in q-factor, but the Miranda Delta 0 cranks I ordered are the same model & q-factor (Q:16 stated & measured) as my Trek Powerfly/Bosch CX came with. Just 160mm length vs 170mm stock.
> 
> For grins I poorly measured outside pedal to outside pedal on Powerfly (15.75") to my Hightower (15") with same VP Aim pedals. I don't seem to notice that difference.
> 
> ...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Installed the Unicycle.com 150mm cranks, drive side fits perfect with 1/2” clearance to the chain stay and casing rub, but non drive side rubbed the motor casing. A little dremmel work and it’s just right, 1/2” clearance at the chainstay. 

These cranks are 20mm shorter than the stock Praxis cranks, much closer to the chainstay so Q factor is reduce by ~10mm per side, it’s a nice option if you can get used to short cranks.

I’ve got a set of unused Miranda Deta 0 cranks, 160mm, special order from Spain, if anyone wants them, send me a pm.


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## jmcdev1 (Jan 1, 2011)

Has anyone found a successful replacement 160 mm crank arm that fits the levo without having to use a Dremel tool? Because of a weird body shape I also need to go from 165 mm to 160 mm cranks. Local bike shop does not have any sources from their wholesalers and I will buy on Amazon. Praxis was no help in giving me the specs on the stock crank arms. They said that specialized requested that they be the only source of information on these crank arms. I can push the bike shop to get the info out of specialized if needed but was curious if anybody has found a good **** already? Oh my, look what Siri typed instead of the word dictated, fit? Ha ha. Thanks for your help. 
By the way, if anybody is in the same boat as me (extremely long torso for a six footer with shorter legs and arms), I was forced to buy one size larger than most six footers, the XL size bike, replace the 150 mm fork with a 170 mm lyric fork to raise the front end enough that I'm not going over the handlebars frequently on the steep drops, lengthen the stem to 90 mm with 30 mm of spacers underneath it, which reduces head angle to 65° and lowers the bottom bracket, and thus requires the need for shorter crank arms to avoid hitting the motor casing and frequent pedal strikes in our many horrific rock gardens. Also needed to shorten handlebars to 740 mm for our very tight technical trails with very close trees. 780 mm was not possible at all, ha ha. Not the trails for a wide handle bar. Simply couldn't get through. However, with these changes that bike is an absolute screamer.


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## boogsie (Oct 20, 2011)

Gday jmcdev1,
I had no luck finding 160mm cranks that dont need shaping. Its not a huge job to grind them down and oh what a difference having shorter cranks makes, bought them for my regular bike now as well.
interesting info on 170mm fork, pretty radical.
Good luck hunting for the cranks.


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## jmcdev1 (Jan 1, 2011)

Tanks eh, boogsie. Got a link to what you bought? And describe where u had to grind down?


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## boogsie (Oct 20, 2011)

jmcdev1 said:


> Tanks eh, boogsie. Got a link to what you bought? And describe where u had to grind down?


nurse ben put me onto these which i bought, though seems outta stock. might be a place to start. Koxx cranks are zero Q
Catalogue - Unicycle.Com Products

Not the most informed pics , easily ground down with flap disc though had to pull them on and off a few times and sand back to fit nicely. The cranks were all black so where the silver is showing is where I've ground. Last pic is side by side new crank and original levo crank.

And if your riding flat pedals check out Catalyst Pedal, so damn good.
Best of luck


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## jmcdev1 (Jan 1, 2011)

*Perfect*

The pics are great self explanatory. Thanks again. Now I see the idea.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Update on the Unicycle.Com 150mm cranks I installed on my wife's FSR Levo:

Everyone who rides it, loves it. The pedal strikes are gone, no significant change in rideability, cranks turn, bike goes.

As a guy who prefers short cranks; got 165mm on all my bikes, going to a really short crank on an ebike makes sense for a number of reasons: reduced leg movement, improved balance, faster turn over.

I'm a muni rider, who after years of playing with crank lengths; rode a cranks ranging in size from 75mm to 180mm, I settled on 150mm as the ideal length.

I think the ebike mfgs need to adjust their thinking on crank length.


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## jmcdev1 (Jan 1, 2011)

Not willing to go to 150 mm but would sure jump on 160 mm if I could find pictures of one brand that would work without needing grinding. Any ideas, nurse ben?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Sorry, I never found anything.

The grinding is easy, dremel or a grinder, it's not a lot harder than sanding wood before painting, the hardest part is repeatedly installing the crank arm until you get it right.

Honestly, 150mm is the perfect crank length for an ebike because there is absolutely no reason to have a long lever to power a bike with a motor, whereas there are plenty of reasons to run a shorter crank.

Give it time and the industry will catch on, might as well get ahead of the curve 



jmcdev1 said:


> Not willing to go to 150 mm but would sure jump on 160 mm if I could find pictures of one brand that would work without needing grinding. Any ideas, nurse ben?


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## jmcdev1 (Jan 1, 2011)

Wow, couldn't find any ISIS 160 mm zero q crank arms anywhere. Did you find any, nurse ben?


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## Mackerel_Fillet (May 1, 2016)

I think the 2018 Turbo Levo comes stock with 165mm cranks now.


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## Henry Hester (Jun 10, 2017)

Nurse Ben, Just ordered the VCX 150mm. I ran 165mm on my Mutz fatbike. Now converted to 29/27.5. I share a lot of the body frame as I see here. 225lbs kitted, 66 yr old, larger long top heavy upper torso, 30" inseam. 2016 Expert, I'm currently on the Catalyst flat pedals after too many SPD tip overs. I've got a pair of One-ups ready. Never had so many strikes with the Catalyst but the power is good. I'm expecting to change the front ring so I can rock the top speed with my five (5) Levo buddies. Last ride in a very rocky Kern Canyon, Ca lead to 40+ hard pedal strikes in two days, turning a number of super tough climbs into hike a bikes. 

I hope these Unicycle, Australia purchased VCX cranks mount without trimming. They are good on their eBay communication/shipping.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

My approach for the pedal strikes is a little different. Sag is critical. I pump the auto sag up to 250 psi and burp once. I use large volume 3.0 tires vs the new Levos with 2.8s. For pedals I use egg beaters. I get pedal strikes on the egg beater itself occasionally but mostly when I hit something it is on the crank arms.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

That's the standard process for setting sag on the Levo Fox Shock, but the bike still has a vey low B.B.; it's a design issue, hence all the folks looking for short cranks.



Giant Warp said:


> My approach for the pedal strikes is a little different. Sag is critical. I pump the auto sag up to 250 psi and burp once. I use large volume 3.0 tires vs the new Levos with 2.8s. For pedals I use egg beaters. I get pedal strikes on the egg beater itself occasionally but mostly when I hit something it is on the crank arms.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks for this thread. I've been contemplating this modification since I got my ebike. I prefer to ride technical terrain rock gardens, roots, etc. It made sense (in my feeble brain) that short cranks like this might be ideal given the riding style and specific strengths of the ebike.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Low bb for sure which has plagued b+ from the start but isn’t the fact that in order to keep momentum you have to keep the cranks going and the tendency to do so is causing strikes? If you time them as you would normally it takes some pedal stroke to to reactivite the PAS? A heavier e bike reacts doing this slower than a normal one. 

For leg memory consistency I prefer to keep my crank length the same, 170, that I have used for 18yrs. on all my bikes and try to work the timing angle as much as possible. Admittedly my hobby kit bike has a low speed throttle that I can burp while the torque sensing isn’t engaged and that has been put to use on a few occasions but mainly I work the PAS. 

Now if there was a flat pedal that had less of a square profile outside leading edge I’d be first in line. As the sides of the trails here fill in with foliage it hides things that they catch on. Only on tight trails but that is what I tend to seek. Riding my egg beaters this is not a problem but I use flats on my e bikes.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

There’s no such thing as leg memory, you’d adjust to a shorter crank just like you adjust your stride to different terrain when walking.

Because ebikes are heavy and ratcheting in tech terrain prevents the motor from properly engaging, short cranks and/or a high B.B. make for a more functional ebike. 

Short cranks make a lot of sense on a motor assisted bike because you don’t need a big lever to muscle the bike. Actually, short cranks are beneficial on non ebikes too, but no one seems willing to drink the koolaide

Give it time, the mfgs will catch on.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Those are the same cranks I put on my wife's bike, so you'll need to do some grinding. It's worth the effort, makes the bike much more rideable, no real change in the feel, just far fewer pedal strikes.



Henry Hester said:


> Nurse Ben, Just ordered the VCX 150mm. I ran 165mm on my Mutz fatbike. Now converted to 29/27.5. I share a lot of the body frame as I see here. 225lbs kitted, 66 yr old, larger long top heavy upper torso, 30" inseam. 2016 Expert, I'm currently on the Catalyst flat pedals after too many SPD tip overs. I've got a pair of One-ups ready. Never had so many strikes with the Catalyst but the power is good. I'm expecting to change the front ring so I can rock the top speed with my five (5) Levo buddies. Last ride in a very rocky Kern Canyon, Ca lead to 40+ hard pedal strikes in two days, turning a number of super tough climbs into hike a bikes.
> 
> I hope these Unicycle, Australia purchased VCX cranks mount without trimming. They are good on their eBay communication/shipping.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Perhaps I didn't use the correct terminology. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

It's technique and line choice for successful rock garden riding no matter what bike you're on, not crank length. But if shorter cranks help with that by all means carry on.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

The term exists, but doesn't work in your application any more than muscle memory applies to changing from hiking shoes to running shoes.

Shorter cranks improve pedal clearance regardless of the bike you ride, unicycles too.

Of course if you have throttle it's a null argument.



Bigwheel said:


> Perhaps I didn't use the correct terminology. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory
> 
> It's technique and line choice for successful rock garden riding no matter what bike you're on, not crank length. But if shorter cranks help with that by all means carry on.


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## bwana (Oct 8, 2012)

mirandabikestore in the US is AWOL. Anyone in the US recently get any 150mm cranks?


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