# Alfine ,belt drive, 29er project



## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

http://www.bramba.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3614

This is a cross post from my local club board.I get lots of questions on fabricating from members and thought it would be helpful if I documented a make over with some light fabrication. So basically I'm putting a Alfine 8 with a Gates belt drive on a Raleigh XXIX.

Tim


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

Tim, you should repost all the intel and photos separately here. The guys on this forum are going to critique you more than the local press.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*I could have warned you...*

...about the sprocket/chainstay problem. There's a reason the Spots all use 460mm chainstays and don't have much tire clearance.

Your work looks great! Let us know how it rides!

-Walt


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Stu
Your killing me. I'm way to lazy. Maybe later.

Walt
Thanks. Coming from you means a lot.

I can see were a SS conversion would be easier.More room to move it over. I know Spot has a rear cog plate that helps keep the belt on. Maybe you can use a bash guard for the front. I tested the rear this mourning I should be OK I couldn't make it move with the rear wheel bolted in place.

Tim


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Thanks for sharing, Tim. I'm not a framebuilder but I love seeing the process as much if not more than the finished product. It delights me when folks like yourself go to the trouble to document their work and share it with the rest of us. I'm not qualified to judge your work but it looks great! Keep us posted when it's done.


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

TimT said:


> Stu
> Your killing me. I'm way to lazy. Maybe later.


Last final today, I have admin rights to our side, so I think I can copy and post here and it should display the same.  I'll save you the trouble - remember that when we start building my new 650b frame!


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

golden boy, bonbonan
Thanks for the props. I'll post finish results and a ride report for sure.
Stu
Sounds like something to put on your blog. For you I'd really think about building a lugged frame as your first. Also I'd not try to reinvent the bike. I'd just copy an existing frame and may do so slight mods like lengthen or shorten the frame. 

Tim


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

*Repost 1 from nomambo.net forum:*

First off this is going to be some what of a long term project. Second don't try this at home , I am a professional.
So here's the project: I'm going to take a Raleigh XXIX and install a Shimano Alfine internal gear hub and a Gates BELT DRIVE.









So here's the bike . Its a 2007 model and I got it from the area's Raliegh rep. Arron Brown. Smoking deal at $450. But wait I'm getting ahead of myself. I want to build a bike that I can travel with . The PUSS ( my bike)is a single speed and every time I want to go some place other then a very flat place (like the Spillway) I have to change gears or suffer. I really like the simplicity of SS but.....there are times when a shift down would be nice . A friend of mine has a Spot Long Board with a belt drive. What can I say mud has no effect on it. We got some mud around here.. I've always wanted a Rohloff Speed Hub but at $1200 forget it. The Shimano Alfine 8 is cheaper and is dirt worthy (as reported on MTBR by multiple members). Also it is Gates compatible. With the Alfine it is best to have vertical drop outs for the "anti-rotation" washers. So that limited my choices on victims er I mean frames to chose from. On a side note I've been a professional metal fabricator for 27 years. I started as a helper in a general fab shop when I was 16 and then went from there. Right now I work for the Intralox Corp. as a tool and die maker. I have built many bicycle parts and I've built some frames. I also have a TIG welder and several gas brazing rigs. So any ways. I needed a steel bike as my TIG welder is a DC unit and although you can weld aluminum with it it would be difficult. Ti for get it. I rode a Redline with sliding drop outs and liked it and looked at a couple of other candidates. I went over to Eastbank and talked to Eric and he hooked me up with Aaron
. 
So why did I buy a bike instead of building one from scratch?? A cheap tube set is about $350. I got the whole bike for $450. Even if I screw up I have all the parts. So I got the bike and rode it. I really like it. It handles well. And for a rigid bike it is pretty smooth. The 29" tires are a bonus. If you've never ridden a big wheel bike there is no need to explain. There are a couple of things I did not like about it. The grips suck for my style of riding (Ergon) I move my hands around to much and the ergo shape won't let me grip like I want. I'm switching those to Oury. I've been using those for over 10 years. Next I use 180mm cranks. I won't get into a discussion on why I use them. So the Truvative 175's are coming off and a set of Truvative 180's are going on. Also there is no rear disc brake cross brace. I'm going to add one. What's that?








A cross brace ties the chain stay and the seat stay together and spreads the braking forces between the two tubes. Were the tape is is were I'm going to put it.








This is the one I put on Scuba's old Zion. I'm going to make this one out of a tube instead of a plate. I think it it will look better. Also I'm going to replace the stock eccentric with a Bushnell. 
















The stocker uses a couple of pinch bolts were as a Bushnell has a clamping mechanism. Besides I'm going to have to add some cable guides down the down tube and under the right chain stay and I may have to remove the bosses to get the cable to flow right.








I went into my braze on stash and found some that may work. I don't have enough so I ordered some from Nova Cycle supply.








Looks pretty darn close.

With the Gates Belt drive I will have to cut the frame and make some adapters and braze them in place. I'm going to do it on the right seat stay.








I have almost 4 inches to work with. Man that's a lot of room. So I've done some research on some designs and ways to do this. The Spot has a split drop out. Looks a little flimsy to me and they did change there design from there original. There are several ways to split the stay and Masi had a real nice one on a show bike with a S3X hub but I don't think it would hold up to MTBing. Groovy has a simple design that I'm going to use as my base. 



 . I've got some 17-4 PH rod and some SS bolts ready to go. 17-4 PH is easy to braze , and machine. I'm going to make some CAD drawings at work and nail down the design before I cut anything.

So right now I'm waiting on some parts. Eric has my hub on order. I'm waiting for my cranks and grips to get here . Also the rest of the cable guides. I also will be building a set of wheels. I will use the Alfine in the back and I'm going to use a Chub Hub https://bythehive.com/collection/chub-hubs/qr-disc-front/ in the front. I still have to decide on rims. The spokes will be Sapim Race . I may also get a suspension fork. So that's it for now I'll update as I go along.


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

*Repost 2 from nomambo.net forum:* (without heckling from other posts - read in entirety here: https://www.bramba.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3614

Hey Ricky how's your wife and my kids??

Any how made the brake brace last night but ran out of gas. Got to get some today and will post a how to later here's a preview.










Tool
In
Motion


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

*Repost 3 from nomambo.net forum:* (read in entirety here: https://www.bramba.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3614 )

Stu: I was looking at another 26" bike to do the conversion and turn it into a 650B but didn't find anything.So I guess I'll settle for the 29er. More then likely if I like everything I'll dust off my plans for the Head Shock bike and build one from scratch.
Brian: to get S&S couplings you have so submit some of your work (brazing sample)to S&S plus have a business license and insurance. Sense I can't do the last two....I've seen a bunch of IGH bikes its a real niche market. I think with the release of the Shimano Alfine 11 later this year you will be seeing more.I've also heard Stermy Archer is going to get into the game.
Ricky: Yep that's why I used a tube and the brazing method. Its a bit harder but looks very nice.

So folks here's how you can cut any tube for any joint on a bike frame at home with simple tools. But remember if you try this by yourself and you have zero fabrication experience don't cry to me if you screw up. First you have to take some measurements.

























Then you have to do a little trigonometry. (should have stayed awake in high school!!) You have to figure out your angles and lengths. Find your self a tube that has the correct strength to do the job. In this case its a piece of 17-4PH, .065" wall, 5/8" diameter (same size as the chain stay). Cut it to length. In this case I measured about were I wanted the brace to the middle of the stays.Then if you Google tubemiter.exe you get this niffty little program that prints out a template for your miter. Cut them out with scissors and label them.










Next get a marker and color up part of the tube. Then lay it on a V block. Take a scribe and scribe a line down the tube.








Then get some tape and tape the templates to the tube. Make sure align them how you want the miters to run.









Next get a Dremel tool and cut the appropriate chunks off the tube.I like the sanding drums and the cut off wheels.










I have 2 size sanding drums with 2 different grits of drums. Don't be shy just go up to the line on your template. Oh yea WEAR YOUR SAFETY GLASSES STUPID!!!!! Next get a file and lay it flat to the angle and finish it up. The tube must be flat were it touches the other tube for the brazing to work correctly and it makes for a stronger joint.








Next fit it up to the other tubes, Adjust your miter with a file till you have as few gaps as possible. take your time if you have to make another tube do it.








Awesome so far . Next I took everything off the bike that would get in my way then I got the marker out and marked the frame were the brace was going. Then I got some sandpaper and cleaned of all the paint.








Oh yea you have to drill a small hole in the tube. It's a vent hole to let gas out while your welding. After the bike is painted I'll squirt some Frame Saver in it and seal it with a bit of RTV. I placed it on the bottom and to the back you can't see it unless you get down and look for it.








Then clean up all parts to be welded with some alcohol. This will strip any oil off of it and give you a nice clean weld..Next flux it up. For this job I used GasFlux Silver and will braze it with Wellco Number 17 rod. This is not the same stuff you use to sweat a copper pipe with you have to get it ether on-line or at a welding store. I go to Marse Welding Supply in Metaire.









OK hit it with the heat.








At this point you want to go slow. To fast and hot and you can cook the flux and rod. Not good. If you've never brazed before practice before you burn a hole in your frame. On small parts like this I use a Bernz-o-matic MAPP gas torch. Yep its the same one you use to sweat copper plumbing pipe with. I only get the Oxy-Acet. kit out when I have to do some lap joints (like lugs) were I need the extra heat. I don't like heating up the tubes more then I have to. besides is way cheaper . I could have used my TIG welder but at $1400 bucks not every one can have one. I wanted to show what anyone could afford.
So after you weld it up let it cool slowly. The next person I see that slaps a wet rag on a hot joint I'm going to dope slap. Its just like getting a hot glass out of the dish washer and filling it with cold water. If the tube does out right bust apart it WILL form small micro cracks and later on those small cracks will form up into larger ones. Then guess what happens??? OK so after it is cool to the touch boil up some water. Get it good and hot the hotter the better. Then pour it on the joint. Any left over flux will get washed right off.
Next get out your Dremel and files and some sand paper and shape and clean your fillet.








I've got about 6 small round files that I use plus some small rods that I can wrap sand paper on. I only use the Dremel for any rough/ large stuff. Never for any finish work. You can get carried away and cut your tube's. Normally I put on some jams and go at it. It takes as long as it takes and your sure to kick your self in the ass if you rush it.
Sense I'm not going to get the bike painted right away I taped it off and sprayed some paint on it to protect it. 








The bike will have some more paint blotches on it when I add the braze-ons. I'm not sure what color I want to paint it when done. The wife likes the color it is. Me I'm thinking........

Still waiting on some parts. Got some others in. Next I'm going to add the cable guides for the Alfine.


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

*Repost 4 from nomambo.net forum:* (read in entirety here: https://www.bramba.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3614 )

Couple of things happened. First I layed out the cable stops.
















I use these reusable zip ties to hold the cable in place. That way I can move them around and se how the cable flows. Looks like I'll run them down the down tube at about 7-8 o'clock and under the BB. I'm going to keep the original EBB studs. A little back up doesn't hurt and it looks like it will keep the cable from hitting the crank. Still not sure on the chain stay . I'll have to mount the hub and see were the shifter arm lays. Looks like 3 cable guides tho.








Next I measured the chain stay for the belt calculation. I used a long axle and placed it in the drop out. I then used my welding ground strap ( its a threaded plug that screws into the BB I use it to ground painted frames when I do any repair welding with the TIG) I put a metric ruler on the jig and wrote down the min and max. I then went to Gates web site ( https://www.carbondrivesystems.com/ ) and used their calculator and it looks like a 113 belt will work. Today I called Eric at Eastbank and he ordered the belt and the front ring from Gates. He already got me the rear cog and a ton of small parts for the hub. I should be getting the hub,rims and a new Reba fork this week.

















Whoa big big step no turning back now. So while I'm waiting on the parts to show I've decided to make some couplings. I've done a rough CAD sketch but need the tube thickness to complete it. So I have to cut the frame. Looks like I'm going to stay after work the next couple of days and whittle me some steel.


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

*Repost from nomambo.net forum:* (read in entirety here: https://www.bramba.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3614 )

OK started to make the couplings today. I couldn't finish them cause I couldn't stay as late as I wanted.










First I faced off the end and then drilled a small hole. The hole will be the vent.








Next I turned down the O.D. and machined the step.








Its pretty critical that I got both pieces the same size. So I keep them to .001" of an inch. Almost there in this picture.









This is my work drawing. Some times they call it a sketch. I use Master CAM/CAD at work CAD drawings help out a bunch It has just the info I need. The red piece is the part I cut off the frame. I sandblasted it to get my measurements. The coupling will be the same diameter as the chain stay. I'm going to cut a step in both parts and some bolt holes. So they will over lap. If I do this right and this is the real tricky part, it will look like the tube was never cut.

Tim


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

*Repost from nomambo.net forum:* (read in entirety here: https://www.bramba.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3614 )

Hey Stu. No didn't even think about that. Which forum tho?? LOL the IGH or the 29er or the SS (they have an "official belt drive thread") I did send the link to some fame builder friends of mine and some co workers and one cousin who mountain bikes.

OK finished up the rest of the couplers.








So I mounted them in a set of collet holders. This gives you a firm grip on round parts. After indexing them in and zeroing the machine I cut the step.








Next I drilled and tapped one of them. Then I drill and counter bored the other.








The cool thing about the collet holders are that you can flip your part 90 degrees with out losing your center/zero point.








So after I got home I cut the last little bit of tube off and filed the end and test fit the coupling.








Looks like a pretty good fit. I'm going to have to trim the bolts. Its not welded yet. I like the way the button head bolts look in that set up. Very round and flowing.
So still waiting on some parts. I did get a Rock Shox Reba SL 29er fork in today. Should get some more part on Thursday. Hopefully rims and hubs.

Tim


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

*Repost from nomambo.net forum:* (read in entirety here: https://www.bramba.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3614 )

Well a bunch of parts have been coming in.









I'm going to use a Chub Hub for the front and Sun Equalizer 27 rims.










I had a problem with the Gates cog. When I opened the box I noticed that there was some damage to the splines.WTF??? So I tried to install it on the hub and it was a no go. So I took it to work and measured it. Looks like the ID is .010" to small. I'm guessing that ether a tool broke on the clean up pass or it skipped the clean up pass. Some one else got it and tried to force it on their hub then sent it back. Then they sent it to me. I took it to Eric and he hooked me up. I take back every bad thing I've ever said about him. So ordered the spokes for the wheel build and the new cog and a bolt for the cranks.

On the paint. I've been promising my youngest daughter that I would paint her bike. So The powder coater is giving me a deal on painting 2 frames. If they are the same color. So the kid gets to chose the color for both bikes. Now what color will a 12 year old chose.........

Tim


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

*and more...*










OK brazed the coupling in yesterday and finished the install this morning.










Again I painted it up to prevent rust. Waiting on the paint to dry before I take off the tape. Next I'll do the cable guides. Then build wheels. Also still waiting on parts. I think the waiting is killing me. But any ways the joint looks like it will hold. When bolted down I tried to twist the rear triangle but saw no movement. To be honest that means nothing riding the damn thing is whats going to prove the design. So I have to wait for now.

Tim


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

*still more...*

Breaux
Name seems familiar but I can't place a face. Which division does he work for. I'm in the mold shop.
Monkey
You my friend have a Stermey Archer hub. They also have an 8 speed hub but from what I hear not very dirt worthy. They also have a pretty nice 3 speed fixed gear hub that uses a Shimano spline for the gear. The Shimano has a different mechanization for shifting. Its more compact.

Got some parts in. Should get the spokes tonight. So I'll build me some wheels this weekend. So while I've been waiting on brown Santa I put on some cable guides. Cable guides can make or break a bike. Seriously how many times have you gotten a bike and said WTF were they thinking running this brake line like this? Sharp turns can kink a cable and the shifting or braking can suffer or feel sluggish.There are bolt on guides from Problem Solvers and rivet on guides from Nova. There are plenty of weld on guides. I got these from Nova Cycle Supply. First you get some zip ties and lay out the cable.









Looks like I'll need 3 on the down tube at about the 7ish o'clock position. Next get a strait edge and mark a line down the tube.








Next take a marker and mark off the were the guides will be on the line.









Now sand off the paint.









Now flux everything up. Remember never to much. Clamp the braze on in place. 








So I first took this picture with all the flux on but you couldn't see any thing so I cleaned it off and re took it. Any how there are many many methods to clamp these little buggers down. Sputnik has the best production tool I've seen. But $$$$. Henry James has the worst piece of crap ever to do this job. But a hose clamp and piece of bent wire works pretty good and will hold just about any braze on you want. Clamping it on a shaped/oval tube can be trying but it works.
Add heat and rod and let it cool. repeat all down the tube.
The chain stay was a bit difficult. The tube has some bends and is oval. I put the hub on and layed out the cable. I needed to keep the cable from rubbing the tire. and from hitting the wheel.








When I took this picture the guides kept slipping . I did place them on the bottom of the tube. Any how mark them with the marker sand and flux and clamp add heat and rod and let cool.








Then pour hot water over the cooled down tube and use a stiff brush to clean off the area. use files and sandpaper to clean off any extra braze and burnt paint. Then I added paint to protect the steel. So I'm still not sure I have the first guide on the stay right I'll know when I preassemble the bike I may have to move it. Might be close to the front ring. Its about twice as wide as one for a chain and the Alfine hubs chain line pretty narrow chain line. We'll see. Pretty easy to do get a vise grip and add some heat and it will pop right off.

So now I'm going to start preassembling the bike. and wait for parts...........

Tim


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

*Still more*

First off looks like I got all the parts in let the party begin....Sort of.
So sense Stu brought it up. If you want to try frame or wheel building. I would suggest you read a couple of books first. On frame building I would get 3 books.
1.The Paterek Manuel https://www.henryjames.com/patman.html This is the bible of frame building.

2.Lugged Bicycle Frame Building Construction https://www.amazon.com/Lugged-Bicyc...1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1273316042&sr=8-1-fkmr0 A pretty good book well written and geared for the first time builder.

3.Atomic Zombies Bike Building Bonanza https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Zombies-Bicycle-Builders-Bonanza/dp/0071422676/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c What can I say......The instructions for rattle can paint jobs is spot on. Tho I would not recommended building a frame out of electrical conduit.

On the web: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?399311-How-to-build-a-lugged-steel-frame-with-pics Pretty good info and pictures.

On wheel building.
1. The Art of Wheel Building. https://www.amazon.com/Art-Wheelbui...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273316465&sr=8-2 Lots of info. very good stuff.

2.The Bicycle Wheel https://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Wheel-3rd-Jobst-Brandt/dp/0960723668/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b Not as good as the first book.But way cheaper and will get the job done.

On the web. Just Google bicycle wheel building way more then I can list. Check out Sheldon Browns web site too.

So In other news Eric got the rest of the parts in . So I'm at he counter and I open the rear gog box up and see this.









F me. Same crap as the last one. So after talking to Eric. He calmed me down cause I was hot. I took it home and yes it fit the hub but I had to push it on and deburr it. You know for the cost of these things it should jump out of the box and install it self. Jesus, Gates or Spot or Carbon Drive who ever you really are get your head out of your a$$ and do some QC. Crap like this would never pass in my shop. And another thing how about offering some parts to your customers or better yet understanding who they are....Single Speeders. What no 110 or 94 bolt circle rings?? Heck every one knows single speeders use junk or other wise whats available. Not many 130 five arm MTB cranks out there. And only 1 size Alfine cog? I can only hope the smallest belt you guys offer works on my rig cause I'm pushing those numbers real close.(less then 2mm) How about some selection. Gee that would be nice. Lets try not to get so many of those bulk orders and try something for the little guy and don't think I don't know about Good Years stuff. I just got their catalog and I will be looking through it. And Phil Wood is just the first guy to start making rings and cogs . If I could get on one of the CNC mills at work I'd build one myself. You guys think you invented belt drive or something what about DAN-ED they had a belt drive in 95 and Delta C had one before you guys but DAN-ED went belly up and Delta C is again going after those big orders. (minimum order 1000 units )And don't forget about Good Year. Carbon Drive was developed for conveyor/ power drives gee I work for the largest conveyor belt manufacture in the US. But what do I know....................................Dudes get some QC in place this is ridiculous.

So I also got the front ring in. It barely fits the spider on the cranks.








To get it on I had to kind of finagle it around the arms. Again sort of tight fit not as bad as the rear........Also the Truvative ring bolts are to long









So I used some old FSA BMX bolts.








Crank looks pretty. 
So Santa left me some spokes. I'm going to build some wheels next. Or should I say finish those suckers up cause I stayed up past my bed time and laced them up.









Hey what are those yellow things?? And a hammer to build wheels...WTF??? You have a TS3???!!!
Later, yes and OH yes.

Tim


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

*The guy is thorough, what can I say...*

LOL Stu you nailed it!!

So Big Big trouble. It started early this morning. I built the front wheel last night all went well so I went to build the rear wheel started lacing and ran out of nipples. No problem, I thought, I know I have some spares. Nope not enough. Dang. So I looked again I had some in black but not silver. I'm building the wheel with silver. Crap . Did a quick count. I can do most of the wheel in silver and some in black. OK wait till Eastbank opens up and they have to have some 9/16 nipples in aluminum and in silver right. Nope. F me why do I have to use all the odd crap. They are Sapim self locking nipples. They have plenty of 1/2 DT nipples. So do I I have at least 500 in brass and aluminum but NOOOOOOO. I have to have those dang Sapim self locking ones cause I'm stupid. So I go see Donny at Bicycle Mikes he's the wheel building god of New Orleans. Nope he tells me "Why you using brass Tim" I'm like "I don't know cause I want to or something" Donny changes the subject and we talk about tools for 2 hours. (he's the only guy who has more tools then me) Then we talk about some cool 50 year old bike he's riding for a half hour. So then I go by Bayou Bikes. I figured they had some. Nope since Katrina and Alf left they only have those damn 1/2 DT nipples that every one else has. Go see Buddy, nope. Then I give up and get a burger. So then while eating I figure helk build the wheel with the black order the silver and replace them one at a time. No problem. That way I can get the bike together and ride it and work the bugs out I can work on the wheel when it s getting paint. Good plan. I head home build the wheel and start putting the bike together. Yea all is going fine and smooth and I'm dreaming about riding it on Sunday then this happened.








You see the belt drive is very very dependent on chain line. Very. The belt will automatically adjust itself and want to run true. So I get out the calculator and measuring stick and do a quick calculation. Damn off 7mm. So I move the bottom bracket gain 2mm. and the ring looks like this.








Crap crap crap . hitting the chain stay . My butt puckers and my dream is crushed. So I take the rear wheel off and flip the cog. Nope lost 1mm. Cuss so bad I scare the dog. Look at the cog . Nope maybe gain a 1mm if they machined it different. The cable is in the way. OK I'm thinking change out some of the lock nuts use something thinner respace the wheel, a little dish on a rear wheel is not unheard of. Come on 10 speed..... Nope. The Alfine uses a 3/8x26 TPI axle 
Talk about odd. Come on Shimano why not 10mm like all your other stuff. Heck like everything else on the planet. F me. Come on why not toss me a bone you guys could have made it an extra 5mm wider easily. Its called use thinner lock nuts and spacers. Use the extra room for IDK thicker stronger gears or a couple of extra seals. Some thing any thing. 
So I pulled the bike back apart. At this point I'm dead in the water and it looks like the belt drive it toast. Then I get an idea. Heck got nothing to loose. I cut the bike. Yep got the Dremel out and notched the chain stay. I figured go big or go home. I'm going to ride it till it breaks.








So I dug through my stash of spare bike tubes and came across a set of tandem fork legs I got them in a trade . Nice and thick . Cut part of one off and start shaping the plug and the notch. That fork leg is thicker then the tube on the bike. Another problem. The bearing race is hitting the frame. Oh goody. I can get my 5mm when I notch the frame but I need to cut the shell something like 2mm to make it happen. F me. I'm so glad my kids aren't here this weekend, daddy cusses like a sailor. F it I'm hungry and its dinner time. I'll finish up later.

Peace
Tim


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

*Last post...*

Its amazing what a good meal, a cold beer, a full nights sleep , 3 laps at the spillway and a long talk with mom will do for you.
Feeling much better. So worked on the hole in the bike and feeling much better about it. I put the rear wheel and the crank on and tried to twist the frame. Even with the gapping hole in the stay I couldn't really budge it.









But in truth riding it will tell the whole story.








So when making a patch like this you have to take your time. Also I made the patch a little big and will file it down/smooth.








Brazing went pretty well but got a bit of a burnt spot on the flux. Not sure why. So with a weld like this you have to soak the flux off in hot water








If not the flux can cause problems. I'll file it smooth in the next couple of days put the drive train on and see.

Tim


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Stu
Gee thanks buddy. LOL
Looks like I now have plenty of room and the rear end looks/feels tight. Most important the belt tracks true. I will have to run both BB spacers on the non-drive side. Oh well it works.








The only thing I'm worried about is the cable but I'm going to add another cable guide to fix it.


















Patch after just soaking. I think the burnt spot is from a bunch of old flux that dripped off the hold down device. Came right off after a couple of swipes with sand paper. I'll have to finish the blending in tomorrow.

Tim


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Damn, great story, Tim. Glad I came back to check your post today. I don't mean to laugh at your misfortune, but you're a funny storyteller! I'm not a fabricator, but anyone that's done much wrenching on bikes can relate, I'm sure. This doesn't fit? WTF? Yeah....


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Jaysus there's nothing left of that driveside chainstay! You're a brave man.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Thylcaine
Yea looks pretty bad but it's stronger then it looks. Especially with the patch in place. Plan B is to weld strips of steel any were I can on the stay. I'm going to take it on the trail Thursday so we'll see then. I'm not a hucker but I do plan on jumping a couple of school buses with it. LOL









Patch after clean up and blending.
Well I'm going to try and put the bike together. There hasn't been much adult supervision around here lately. The wife is in the Coast Guard and with her working the oil spill and working 14 hour days and sleeping on the office floor a couple of nights and when she does make it home she pretty much passes out. I've been left on my own so I told the kids to fend for them selves for dinner, just don't burn down the kitchen, which means pizza for dinner and I'm headed out to the shop after my chores. (take out garbage , take in mail etc. etc.) Unless I run into some problems I'm taking a lap tonight around the block. My goal is to ride it on Thursday nights group ride at the Spillway.
Big news the youngest child of mine has picked a color. RAL4006 Traffic Purple. You can view it at https://www.colorbythepound.com Kind of figured that cause she has her nails painted purple and about a dozen purple pieces of clothing. So I have a pink bike and (will have) a purple one. Great.


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

Tim,

This probably is a moot point given the amount you had to cut back on the chainstay tubing but when I built my Surly 1X1 commuter the Salsa 48T was rubbing the chainstay tube and Eric suggested a wider bottom bracket for clearance. I don’t know much about the belt drive cranks but I assume this cut was due to beyond the capabilities of what a wider bottom bracket could solve?


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Stu
Unlike a chain that has 4 capture points. The belt has 3. Really 2 because the side plates are opposite of each other. You can "bend" a chain to get around some alignment issues. Unlike a belt which wants to track strait. No matter what. To be honest you really want a dead strait chain line. (even on a der. bike) Its less friction and there fore more power/speed. Plus the parts wear less due to rubbing issues. You can tell a bad chain line by looking at the teeth on the ring and cog, one side will look new the other side will worn. 

I think you have a freewheel on that bike. I do have some freewheel spacers to help correct that. We can go over the process of measuring chain line if you want. All you need is a caliper, a strait edge,clamp and a calculator. Takes 10 minutes.

Tim


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Interesting*

I haven't personally done chainstay surgery like this, but I've seen many variants on it, and never seen the stay break. Then again, I've also never seen anyone take that much off of the stay.

For what it's worth, I think I would have done less blending - you're depending entirely on the internal fillet (which might be fine) but looks are less important than strength, to me - I think leaving the patch larger than the stay by a bit would have been better.

But I bet it'll work fine. Ride that bastard. Report back in a year.

-Walt



TimT said:


> Thylcaine
> Yea looks pretty bad but it's stronger then it looks. Especially with the patch in place. Plan B is to weld strips of steel any were I can on the stay. I'm going to take it on the trail Thursday so we'll see then. I'm not a hucker but I do plan on jumping a couple of school buses with it. LOL


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Walt
I started out with the patch very wide and worked toward the fillet. Removed mostly from the top of the patch and leaving as much of the tube alone as I could. Yea if it breaks its my butt or most likely my wallet. After Thursday ride I'll make up my mind if I want to add a brace on the inside of the stay. Most likely a small plate welded to the inside of the stay. I will keep a close eye on it for sure.

Tim


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## Zoke2 (Nov 16, 2007)

Tim since talking to you at the trailhead about this bike I really wanted to see some pics - Thanks for the Xpost stu - I cant wait to see it up close ... great job documenting your work


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

TimT said:


> Stu
> Unlike a chain that has 4 capture points. The belt has 3. Really 2 because the side plates are opposite of each other. You can "bend" a chain to get around some alignment issues. Unlike a belt which wants to track strait. No matter what. To be honest you really want a dead strait chain line. (even on a der. bike) Its less friction and there fore more power/speed. Plus the parts wear less due to rubbing issues. You can tell a bad chain line by looking at the teeth on the ring and cog, one side will look new the other side will worn.
> 
> I think you have a freewheel on that bike. I do have some freewheel spacers to help correct that. We can go over the process of measuring chain line if you want. All you need is a caliper, a strait edge,clamp and a calculator. Takes 10 minutes.
> ...


After looking back at your photos after I posted that I concluded that going further out would have only made your situation worse (i.e. you needed to come in thus the cut the cs tube). I figured as much about the line needing to be perfectly straight.

Yeah, I run the WI ENO freewheel on both SS bikes, I rather that than having to use the spacers and hub option. Maybe it's just me but I find the freewheel more direct with completeness with the drive system (if that makes any sense). Maybe it's the simplicity of returning to the 20" days of our youth - whichever, I wouldn't go the hub route if had to. More expensive anyway.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Stu
My spacers are for freewheels. and they also fit english BB. most people don't know this but the thread is the same size on a english BB and a screw on freewheel. (i know don't bust my chops, on a english BB one is left thread and one is right. the right hand thread is the same for a screw on freewheel and english BB)
Zoke 
see you thursday.
Tim


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

Love it! Keep up the good work. I assume that your BB is perfectly faced? Would rotating the EBB give you more chain stay clearance? Would sliders help? Great project!


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Yogii
You can't really face an eccentric bottom bracket. I will, after paint, clean out the BB with a light hone job. Yes hind sight is 20/20 sliders would have been the way to go on this. rotating the BB forward does give you a bit more clearance but your limited to belt length and tension.

So lets build some wheels... Ha Ha just kidding. Seriously I thought about doing a long drawn out thing about wheel building. But who am I kidding. There's already as much about bicycle wheel building on the web as there are porn sites. Just google it you'll see. So I've decided to do a Tim's Tips.
1. good music. Building a wheel can get you in a trance like state so good music is a must. On this wheel set I listened to some Sea Sick Steve and Bobby Lounge followed by Frank Zappa and Rush.
2. Cold drink of your choice. Not beer. Need to keep a clear head.








3.Velo Plugs from Velocity better then rim tape. They don't move around. The yellow ones are for eyeleted rims the red ones are for uneyeleted
4.Hammer and punch. Smack the spoke heads at the hub to set the spokes. A easy hit. don't over do it. Most people freak out if they see me do it to their wheels but trust me it helps.








5. Oil under the spoke nipple. Anything works. One drop.








6. If you use a tension gauge to check your spokes always do it at the same spot. You'll get different readings depending on were you place the gauge.
Example 1 near the nipple








Example 2 half way up the spoke.








Same spoke different reads.
7. clothes pin. Lets say your working away and some one or a dog comes in and bothers you and you have to stop and throw a ball. Take the clothes pin and clip it on the spoke your working on and leave it. Then come back after your nap and finish right were you left off.
8. Spare spoke nipple insertion tool








So your lacing your wheel up and you drop a nipple down the hole in the rim. Dang. get a spare spoke and thread the nipple on back words 1-2 turns.








cheap and it works
9. spoke thread locker. Its all the same and they all work the same. Pre clean the threads with alcohol. I've had some oil on the threads of some spokes and the locker didn't stick.








10. Awesome tools








That bad boy is my home made ERD rim caliper. You can't buy it anyplace. Same thing with my Park TS3 truing stand. When I say I can true a wheel with in .001" I mean it. Ask Rhys. I did his DT wheels. But normally I'm happy with +/-.005"
11. Time. If you don't have enough time to do it right the first time how are you going to have enough time to do it right the second time.
12. Plan B. If you get in a jam have a person you can call or bribe to come over to check out the problem. Two heads are better then one.

later
Tim


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

Jon/Tim: Let's see some finished & action photos on the trail today. Especially the carnage if you break the frame...! j/k


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Test ride went well. The belt tracked true and shifting was awsome. Having some problems with the brakes. dragging like crazy. I'm going to try and fix them tonight. Sorry no pictures.

Tim


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## Typo_Knig (Aug 8, 2009)

I officially like this thread better than most. Awesome work, Tim.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Thanks Typo your my favorite fan

original post copied and pasted from NOMABO.net

OK good news. I've ridden the bike and it sort of works. The Juicy 7 brakes that were on it locked up. Seems that on both calipers one piston does not want to retract and it keeps expanding till it locks the wheel up solid. I swapped them out for a set of Tektro calipers I had laying around. I'll rebuild the calipers and handles in the next couple of weeks or so and put them back on. Today I did some laps at he Spillway and there is a noise coming from the rear of the bike don't know what it is yet. The belt tracks strait and it shifts great. Might be the calipers hitting the rotor. Not sure but will find out. I'm probably going to add another piece of steel to reinforce the frame notch. It will be on the inside of the stay. Not sure exactly what the design will be . I'm going to work on some other projects and come back to it. I need to get my mind off it for a bit.

Now lets talk frame prep. As frames get lower in price point frame prep goes down. Way down. Its amazing what a tapped and faced bottom bracket will do for you. Once I had a guy come to me he bought his daughter a Trek road bike. real low in the price point. It was her first "real" bike. He got it used cause the original owner said it skipped shifting while riding .The bike shop he bought it from said "The components needed to break in" Yea right. So this dude bought it cheap and set an appointment with Miracle Max. I put it on the frame table and the rear triangle was shifted over .120" that's 1/8 inch.Yep no wonder, no amount of "break in" will fix that. Slack bit-hes. Yep a frame jig will hold those tubes strait. LOL. So I got out the frame straining bar of death and dialed it in. Shifted like a champ afterward.

But head sets and their installation is my biggest pet peeve. I can't tell you how many people I've seen just bang them right in. Another true story. I was working for PHK cycles and a guy came in with a newly painted Cannondale . He said he rebuild and painted the bike. His head set tho was coming lose.He bought a Cane Creek headset cheap on some close out. He wanted a new King head set cause he heard they were the best so he bought one online someplace and came in cause in the instructions King won't warranty any headset unless its put in by a bike shop. King won't warranty any head set unless the head tube is faced and reamed and you use their head set press adapter cups. Smart move on their part. So I took his Cane Creek out and oh my god would you look at all the paint rolled up under the head set cups! You guessed it I reamed and faced the head tube AND the stem and put the King in. He came and picked the bike up . I asked if he wanted the old head set back . He told me no just "trash that POS" F that I cleaned off the cups and put it on my SS MTB. Been working for years. Then I took it out and put it on my kids bike, still works.

So how do I put in a head set.








So this is the head set that came off the bike. Its used so what. I cleaned it up then put it in the freezer.








Yep right next to the raspberries and okra. If you get anything cold enough it will shrink. Think swimming pool fellas.....and your boys and "little friend"
Shrinking in this case is good cause it will make pressing it in the head tube easier.
Next get out your facer/reamer. I have a Park. 








Follow the instructions and use some sort of cutting fluid. Take your time. By the way this frame looked like it was faced/reamed. It had some rust which is to be expected on a steel frame. Still I just touched it up. 








Next get your fork ready. Now don't bust my balls on this but I do have a old VAR fork facer. It works for all the variants of the 1" head set. This bike is 1 1/8" So I can't face the fork. I know I've been saving up for a new one but dang they are expensive. Any how you'll need to press the bottom race in place. use some sort of grease to help it slip on. I use silver Anti-Seize. DO NOT PUT THE RACE IN THE FREEZER. put it in hot water. yep no kidding heat expands cold contracts. Now don't bust me again I know your suppose to use hot oil (to keep it from rusting) but I'm doing this at home and heating oil smells like crap and the wife would kick my butt for sure. Nope not going to do it. So after it cools down spray off with WD-40. Ha rust solved.









WTF Tim is that? Ok that's a stem facer. I used a facer from a Park bottom bracket tool and made a simple handle. Huh pretty cool yea. Stein sells one for something like $200. I made mine in 20 minutes with some scrap from work. Why do you need to face your stem?
















That's why those things NEVER come out the box right. If you have a little creaking noise that just won't go away or the head set comes loose after 100 or so miles guess what that's the cause. For a threadless head set to seat properly all the parts have to mate against a parallel surface. Including spacers. To face them I put those on flat surface with sand paper and lap them in.








So you have to cut the stem till you get about 75% clean up. On this stem to get 100% I would have had to face another 1/16 " on both sides. Yikes! 75% will do.
Next get out your head set press. I use a Park cause you can get all these nice adapters to fit every head set made. Remember Kings warranty? 








Next lube up the head tube with grease/anti-sieze and press one of the cups in then press the other cup in.








On a side note I use one of the steel Park adapters when I do the first cup then switch to the "proper" adapters to do the other cup. This saves on ware and tear on the soft aluminum adapters.
Next install the fork and the spacers and stem. 








Mark a line and take it all apart. Now you have to cut the fork. I use a clamp/guide block that bolts to the fork. and then just hack saw the tube.
















I just lean the blade against the block and saw away. Then I get my head tube facer out again and 








face the top of the tube. I made a little adapter to do this. You can file it flat or sand paper it just make it pretty.








Next put the star nut in. Again several ways/tools to do this. Just make sure its strait.
Now put it all together.








I tighten the top cap first. I get it were I want it then tighten the stem clamp.
WHEW done!

Tim


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## JoeandEaston (May 3, 2004)

Tim, Can you tell me why I can't press in both head sets at the same time?


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

JoeandEaston said:


> Tim, Can you tell me why I can't press in both head sets at the same time?


1. Easier to press against something solid. Like a head tube and not another cup that's moving.
2. Easier to handle the cups one at a time sense they are cold.You have to work fast before they warm up.
3. Even tho your using a fancy press you can still get one started crooked. Better one then two so less to pay attention too.

Tim


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Ok a couple of days off helps that's for sure. Got the rest of the nipples in and swapped the black ones out for the silver. Went over both wheels all in good shape. I think I found the rattle. Seems the front caliper was loose. That will teach me to do a rush job. Dang I get excited. Couple more pics.
















Made a couple of tools. The first one is a crank set tightening tool. I made one of these for Eric a while back. Basically it allows you to tighten a out board bearing crank ,such as my Truvativ , With out stressing the aluminum bolt that comes with the crank. i wonder how many of those bolts get stripped out. So It has a threaded plug that goes in the drive side then a plastic cap and a long bolt. The plastic cap keeps from scratching the crank. Just tighten that sucker up as tight as you want. Remove it and install the bolt that comes with the crank. Sorry doesn't work with Shimano's stuff. The next tool is that pin looking thing with the 2 bolted together bars. That's called a spanner wrench. So a Bushnel eccentric has these 2 holes you stick it in those holes and you can turn the eccentric to tighten it up.I made it long to clear the crank arms and such.








So this is a money shot of the drive train. What a PITA to get it this far but it does function. Man I love how fast that thing shifts.








So bike as it sits ready to ride. After 6 good shake down laps on the local trail I'm pretty sure I've got a winner. I plan on doing at least one more on Thursday weather permitting. Then I'll weld in the last bit of bracing. I checked the notch area real good ( even removed the crank so as not to have anything in the way.) No problems so far. Bike wheelies good but there are a couple of little jumps on the trail that I fly over on the Bianchi but the a$$ end of this bike is very heavy and feels like a ton of bricks. This dog don't hunt. I will put it on a diet tho. Pedals,Ti and aluminum bolts, new seat,rotors, we'll see what else the pocket book can handle. 
This bike is a darn good trail bike. Maybe not as fast as my PUSS but I could ride it a lot longer. I love it when a plan comes together.


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## Paco Loco (Oct 25, 2007)

Congratulations! 

Loving this thread. 

Looking forward to seeing the purple...


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Poco
It will be about a month before paint. Main reason is I'm going on vacation (with the bike) and I really want to ride the bike a lot more before I invest in paint just to be sure. I did get a sticker pack from the Raleigh rep,the original owner. So it will be powder coat then stickers and a clear coat. A buddy of mine is sending me a 3/8 26 tap. But I'm still on the bubble about spacing the hub out 1mm. It would take fabrication of a spacer for the disc brake and two lock nuts. Plus rebuilding the wheel. Not sure if I really want to do that for 1mm. It would triple my clearance butt still alot of work.

Tim


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## Paco Loco (Oct 25, 2007)

Sounds good Tim.

I'm sure you have thought of this already, but it seems it would be easier to modify the rear sprocket in some way in order to adjust the chainline, rather than go to all the hassle of what you have described with the axle. 
If this means it obstructs the cable, couldn't the cassette joint unit be modified too to prevent that happening?
I've never seen the Alfine components in the flesh so it's hard to tell and I'm just kinda guessing really.

If only Gates made a decent range of sprocket sizes and belt lengths you could just use smaller sprockets!


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## Paco Loco (Oct 25, 2007)

P.S. I saw this chainstay design recently which might interest you, should the worst happen and your chainstay mod does not hold:


__
https://flic.kr/p/4598835240

I am pretty sure your mod will hold up fine though.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Poco
Belt/cog sit really close to the cable. In fact i'm sure the rubber boot touches the cog while I'm riding. I see little rub marks. So I can't move the cog. I'm not sure how I could move the cassette thingy. Its held on by a special lock nut. 

That stay is pretty cool. I'll keep it in mind. To be honest this is just a prototype thing for me. I do have plans on the drawing board right now for a scratch built frame. Just working out details and such with this one. And having a tough time desiding on some stuff. 

Tim


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## Paco Loco (Oct 25, 2007)

Good luck with it all Tim, and please keep posting your results!


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Ok back at it. I've got about 75 miles on the bike and so far so good. Me and Stu are headed to Brookhaven tomorrow and I'm riding it there. I took it down for a couple of days to add the last brace. Its on the other side of the chain stay were I put the cut out for the front gear. Not that I noticed any flex or cracks but more for piece of mind. I had to think about how I wanted to do the brace. I could ether use a piece of flat bar or a piece of pipe or even cut that whole section of stay out and fab up something fancy . Since this is basically a prototype and I'm cheap and don't have any flat bar I went with the pipe. So I dug around in my pipe stash and found a piece of old Tange top tube.








Then I split it in half right down the middle








Then comes the fun part you have to take small bits at a time off here and there to fit it up.








I left the tire in place as I was roughing it in but took it off for the final stages of fitting. I also took the crank and shift cable off. Gees I should have used Velrco as fasteners. I think I had the crank in and out a dozen times now.








So that is about finished. After I was good and satisfied with the fit and clearance I brazed it up with some brass. I used the brass cause I had some gaps I couldn't close up like I wanted. Sense I was rushed for time and I want to ride the bike tomorrow I didn't clean it up like I wanted to. I'll catch that when I prep the bike for paint. Right now I'm pressed for time. 








I put some paint on it to keep from rusting and assembled the bike then rode it around the block to make sure I was happy happy. I'll post back later when I prep for paint.

Tim


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## montclairbobbyb (Aug 4, 2003)

*Nice...*

Tim, you are a techno-stud... I wish I had half the balls (and tools) you've got... BRAVO!!!

I have an Alfine wheel that I swap between my Karate Monkey (1x8) and my Fargo (2x8 with Alfine tensioner).

I only wish I could use the Alfine with my XT dualie brake/shifters... having to use the Nexus gripshifter or Alfine trigger shifter kinda sucks... I'd even go with an older 8-speed XT indexed thumbshifter, but I don't think the length of the cable pull will match the Alfine... That's my ONLY (minor) gripe with the Alfine...

Peace,
BB


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

BB thanks for the props. You should just measure the cable pull on both shifters. They just might work.

Update. Just got back from a small vacation from Destin Florida. Nice place ,no oil....yet. We stayed at the US Army Recreation Facility. Basically stayed in the hammock while the kids and wife swam in the pool and bay. But I did take the bike out and rode it some on the beach and up and down highway 98. I'm digging the wide tires. rode pretty good on the road and surprised at how well it handled the sand.
I ordered the powder coat today. Powderbythepound.com has some very good customer service. Ordered at 10am had a confirmed shipping e-mail with tracking number by 4pm.
Now the reason why I ordered the powder and not the guy who is doing the work is because he's just starting up at powder coating. He normally does fabrication of motorcycle/chopper parts. He does fabulous work. His powder coating looks awesome and he does a lot of tubes.And he started doing powder coating because he was not satisfied with the other companies doing it in the area. He has only done black tho. Go figure chopper guys and black paint whats up with that. So I ordered the purple and he coats the bikes and keeps the left over powder,not that he'll ever use it. Or maybe he will you never know. Also started to strip the paint off the kids bike. I use this stuff called Aircraft Stripper. Got it at an auto parts store. Normally use one can per frame. Her frame goes first cause its aluminum and can stay stripped longer then my steel frame. I don't like using a sand/media blaster when stripping frames. You can punch a hole in thin tubes if your not careful. (don't ask how I know). I also use a brass bristle brush to clean out between nooks and crannies. Don't use steel cause you can scratch the frame and don't use plastic cause the bristles will melt. 

later
Tim


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

Impressive project! I never would have thought to face your stem. I work at a shop and make sure to do everything correct because I have the proper tools. I just faced my disc brake mounts on my frame today, and before, I would have never thought to do that. So odd when you have the correct tools and means to do something!


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

This is the type of guy I want assembling my bike! 

Ok, can I get some pics of how the slip joint actually works. I mean, how it comes in and out of the frame? I understand that there are scres there but also that you brazed it in. Can you simply unscrew it and take it out or is it pretty much a one time deal? I know belts last a long time but just curious how you take it back out to replace a belt say if you wanted to change your gearing (not that you have alot of choices mind you).

Sorry, just trying to wrap my head around it all.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

1SPD









With the joint brazed into the tubes the bolts allow the joint to be opened any time I want. It takes 2 hands to spread the joint enough for the belt to pass through. With the wheel in place you can only spread the joint 1/16"

The bike is coming apart again and getting ready for paint.Shouldn't be long now.

Tim


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

Let me know about your hookup on the paint. I'm still kicking around black for the MUSS.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Ok a bit of an update. So I've got a about 150 miles on the bike and now its time for paint.








That's 4 lbs of raw powder coat in "Traffic Purple"








That's 2 stripped frames that the powder will be applied to. I'll take all that to my buddies tomorrow. No I'm not playing hooky from work. My wife is in the US Coast Guard and is getting promoted to Commander. That's an O5 or an equivalent to a Lt. Colonel (for you Army types) She's had a good run in the Guard she was the 12th women to be rescue swimmer, Yep used to jump out of helicopters. She also rode out hurricane Katrina at New Orleans city hall. That was a butt pucker to get an e-mail from her saying she had a hide hole and plenty of weapons and not to worry. She also got a call a couple of hours after that BP rig blew up in the gulf and to report to work. Didn't see her for a couple of days after that. So I took the day off to "pin on" her boards. I asked her if I could do a "blood pinning" and she just gave me "the look" you guys know the one that make milk curdle. Way to go honey you are better then awesome sauce. So the ceremony is in the morning and after that I'm running out to Jacks place and dropping off the frames. Not sure when they'll be ready. Got some "diet " parts for the bike on the way.I also have all the parts to rebuild the brakes. A new back tire is also on the way.

Later
Tim


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## Punkeyboozter (Mar 31, 2009)

this post is 4 days old and we passed the wknd already...

any update.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

So the painter is a biker as in motor cycle biker. 4th of July weekend. All he was doing was drinking beer and chasing tail. LOL. Still waiting on parts and paint sigh.....

Tim


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

*What I want to know is...*

what did you accidentally sandblast a hole through? There is a story there, I can tell.

Keep up the ninja fab.


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## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

Looks like others have gone a similar route:









https://www.stoutheartcycles.com/?p=223


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## stumonky (Mar 27, 2004)

Since Tim's too lazy to double post, orignal here (if you want to catch the pun prior): https://www.bramba.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3614&start=45 
________________________________________________________________________________________

"Sloth Barney " Me thinks our friend Stu is playing little tricks on me. I'm not upset because I know how much rust came pouring out of his head set....It was a very clean and pretty bike.....and the tire label lined up so prettily with the valve stem.

Any how ....Got the frames back from powder and boy do I love my buddy Jaxon. You see he took pity on me and coated my frame in the most beautiful gloss black you have ever seen.








He did coat the 2nd child's of mine frame in the purple.








She's going to be very excited. We will paint the fork later and we will put some pink and purple parts on it. But for now it will be a rider. While I was there we played with the left over purple and mixed in some black a baked it. Kind of a weird spotty thing.kind or reminds me of metal flake. I have a road frame going together and as soon as its done he'll coat it with that mix and maybe add some silver. For now I'm going to finish a bathroom, the kids bike and somebody's Titus......... Then I'm going to work on fixing the popping noise coming from the belt drive. For that I'm going to get all mad scientist. Just waiting on some stuff in and I'll start the experiments. So basically the plan is to stiffen the chain stay with some expandable urethane foam. 








Its sort of like the spray insulation foam you get at Home Despot. But on steroids. The foam in the can is .5lbs (notice the point in front of the 5) this stuff is 16lbs. You can hit it with a hammer and it won't dent. Trick is getting it in the stay. So I will experiment on some scrap tubes and hopefully get it to work. If not its tensioner time.

later
Tim


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Stu I was working I swear. Please don't beat me......
Any how 
Bamwa1: we have a sand blaster at work that goes up to 125psi. If your not paying attention to your apprentace who just cleaned up and serviced the blaster and who loaded it with basicly pea gravel and set it at 125psi you will blow a hole in a Life tube. Lesson to be learned: pay attention.
Linnaeus: Looks like he's using a bigger front ring. Big notch. My new frame will have a flat bar kind of thing going on for clearance.

Working on Stu's Titus tonight for a bit and hanging a bathroom sink. If I have time I'm playing with chemicals.

Tim


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

So went to the "lab" today. So the first thing I did was mark half of the stuff I was using to draw out the chemicals and mix with I did this with some blue painters tape.








I did this so that I wouldn't accidentally harden anything. Next I loaded up a special double syringe. I got it from McMaster Carr. They come in 5 packs and are used to mix epoxy's. I also got a special mixing needle. Now I did e-mail the people at US Composites and they didn't have much luck with this method as it depends on mixing thoroughly , so if the needle sucks then its no joy. They were very helpful and shipped very quickly and responded to my e-mails right away. I will do business with them again. 








I mixed 5ml. of each and squirted it in a cup.








No joy. It sort of sat there. I waited 2 minutes. Its suppose to start to harden in 45 seconds. Nothing, so I mixed it up with a stick. Sure enough in about 45 seconds it started to foam a bit and harden up. So then I got another cup and put 5 more mls. into it and stirred it up. Holy crap in 45 seconds it foamed up to about twice the size and man did it get hard!








So I waited about 20 minutes to let everything settle down got a hammer out and whacked the crap out of it. So the one on the far left is a bit of the foam you get out of a can from Home Despot. You can smash it flat with your fingers. Wow big deal. The one in the middle was the first try with the mixing needle. It left a mark on it and a small dent. The one on the far right is the one I mixed by following the instructions. Imagine that it worked as advertised. No dent no mark nothing. The wife came out and rolled her eyes at me as I whacked it and smacked it. So now I have a problem. I have to mix this stuff for 20 seconds (just like the dude told me to) and then pour it into a chain stay. 25 seconds oh boy. So back to McMaster Carr. They have some big syringes. The new plan is to get a couple of big ones and mix in the syringe and then inject into the stay. So while I wait for UPS to show up with my stuff. I'll prep the frame. I'll try to do this in the next couple of days.

Tim


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Awesome!*

I love this kind of tinkering. Great stuff! Let us know how it works.

Aside from the fun of the project, though, I think at this point I would have thrown up my hands and just put a chain on the bike. Belt drives are kickass in the right applications, I just don't think performance oriented/enthusiast mountain biking is one of them (at least yet).

-Walt


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Walt
I love this stuff. I read a lot of Sherlock Holmes as a kid and love to figure things out. At work I do a bunch of problem solving on the molds mostly the jobs nobody wants to do. But for some reason like it.

OK went back out to the lab and with my lovely wife taking pictures (thanks hun) and did some more experimenting. First I wanted see if I could mix in a syringe and get it in a tube fast enough. Second I wanted to see how much it expanded and if the expansion would burst any tubes. So I found a clear plastic tube at work. For the record its about 1/2" ID with a .012" wall. Very thin. Some welding wire came in it and it was empty. So I decided to save it from the trash.








First I put 10mL of water in the tube and marked it with some tape. The top of the tape is the mark. Next I plugged the syringe with a nail so the stuff wouldn't leak out as I was mixing. Then 5mL of part A in the syringe then 5mL of part B. I mixed for 20 Mississippi (seconds) with a piece of welding rod. Then I squirted it in the tube.








After about 25 seconds it started to expand up the tube.








After a couple of minutes it stopped and sure enough just like the guy told me and the printing on the can it expanded to about 4X its volume.Then I let it sit for 30 minutes. The tube got hot. Just warm to the touch not to bad.








Before I could crush the tube with my fingers.








After hard as a rock . I tried to squeeze the tube flat but no way no how. I can still bend the tube some. but not like I could before I put the foam in.
So What I learned.
1. this stuff is bad a$$
2. It won't blow up my tubes or my face.
3. I can work fast enough to get it were I need it.
4. dude was not lying about what to do and how this stuff works. I like that.
Question still
1. I can still bend the tube so will it stiffen the stay up enough?
Plan of attack. Fill 10mL of foam through the BB hole, tape off and tip frame up. Let it harden for a couple of hours. Measure were the foam stopped with a rod through the hole by the drop out. Figure out by guestamite how much more is needed. Inject another ??mL of foam through the hole at the drop out.
So now I wait for Brown Santa for the other syringes from McMaster to come in. Tomorrow a buddy's coming over and I'm working on his bike and Friday I'm cutting grass. I should have some time on Saturday after my ride at the Spillway. Hopefully everything will be in place by then.

Tim


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## Joe Nation (May 16, 2007)

I used to use that stuff (or something very similar) a few years ago making parts for Lotus sports cars. It's daunting at first because you keep thinking it's going to explode foam all over everything before you get it where you need it. But as long as you keep calm and know exactly what you need to do before you mix, it's brilliant. An electric drill (or Dremel-type tool for smaller quantities) with a piece of steel rod bent at the end like a number seven is a great mixing tool.


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## selin (Nov 20, 2009)

*Xxix 2011*

Tim, somebody is copying you....


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Joe
Read a bunch on the web about car guys using this stuff to stiffen frames. Especially the sport import guys. Can't wait to see if it works.
Selin
Heard about it last week but yours is the first picture I've seen. Looks like they lengthened the stays and are using a 46 up front. The split looks like its at the drop out. Raliegh should have used sliders instead of the EBB. I can see the dimple in the stay that thing is huge.

Ok decided to do one more test. I wanted to see if I could "stuff" more foam in the tube. I figure the more the stiffer Right?? So I took a piece of 1/2 copper pipe and cut it about half the length of the plastic one and capped off both ends. I drilled a hole in one of the caps.








Next I mixed up 10mL of foam and injected it in the pipe bomb.








It pretty much came out the top. Pretty messy so I wrapped it in some paper towels.








Not really sure if any extra got left in the tube. But learned a couple of things. One I can fill in one shot and not worry about over filling and busting the stay as long as I have a vent hole. Second this stuff is a sticky mess I'm going to have to tape off the bike. So next I filled the stay up with water.








I have a volume of 128mL. The syringe will hold 35mL which will expand to about 140mL. So I did some dry runs and figured I'd fill from the BB and put a rubber plug in the vent hole. Its about 1/4 inch. Then tip the bike and vent from the drop out. With enough tape and news paper I'm golden.The dry runs were awesome. BUT in reality..... So the camera ran out of battery power. Sorry no pics of the carnage. But I mixed up 35 mL and injected the stay went to put the plug in and the sucker wouldn't go.WTF worked in the dry runs. Like clock work 25 seconds later the foam began to expand.So like a Dutch Boy I stuck my finger in the hole and tipped the frame. SOB. this sucked. Grabbed a handful of paper towels with the other hand and stuffed them in the BB. Lost some out the BB not much and then it started to come out the weep hole at the drop out. Great the stay filled up. I have it coming out of both ends. So then I waited 5 minutes and removed the tape and news paper. The stay was warm to the touch. Got some mess around the BB area but the tape and news paper payed off.
I took a razor blade and trimmed the foam at the holes. Got some spill on the bottom side of the BB so no big deal.








So now I'm back to assembly. I did get a sticker pack for the bike but I kind of like it bare. I did put one XXiX sticker on it. I also decided to put a strait post on the bike for a bit better fit and I'm making some small bits. So I might finish this bike in a week or so just depends on when the post gets here.

later
Tim


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## KYjelly (Mar 11, 2010)

This is an awesome project! I have an Avanti KISS29 (same frame) and have considered doing a gates conversion, just for fun.

Looks like theres a bit more to it than just splicing the stays to get the belt in!

If you ever make up a kit - be sure to let me know


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## Grave9 (Aug 3, 2009)

Man! Great build thread!!! Thanks for sharing!...........Drew


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## iRoel (Sep 20, 2010)

Awesome job Tim...!!:thumbsup: 

I am rebuilding my spez globe san francisco and if you live next to my apartment I would love to have a spez using a belt+alfine, It would be great...! Arrrgh... that's a dream though...


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Well Its been a long time but I have to say this projects a wrap.








Finally got all the parts in and got it together last night. Bleed the brakes this after noon and took it to my test hill. Its the Mississippi river levee behind the house about 30 foot tall and about 40 degree angle. Not much but enough to put some torque on the frame and see if I could make it pop.








For those of you that don't know. If a belt drive bike comes out of alignment or the frame has any twist the belt lifts off the rear cog and causes a popping sound. Very annoying. I also found out that the belts do stretch. Not a lot but yes they do. If you can't keep the belt tight it pops. If you look at it funny it pops. Any damage to the very expensive belt it pops. So in short I filled the stay with 16lb. expandable urethane foam and got a belt "snubber" from Rohloff. 








Unfortunately the "snubber" was to short for my Alfine so I had to make a little extension arm. Its the real shinny piece. I used 7068 aluminum and cut it up on the manual lathe and put the flats on with a manual mill at work. I cranked up the levee with out the snubber and I could not get that sucker to pop. I did it in every gear and just stood up and cranked for all I was worth. But after reading some stuff on the web and after my experience at Brookhaven when I think my old belt did its stretching I'm thinking as a safety devise its wise to leave it on. Besides I did some good lathe work and even played with the radius cutter it would be a waste if I didn't use it.








To fight the no adjustment when the belt stretches I ordered a 26 tooth cog from Phil Wood.Its steel and heavy but fit better then the Gates 24. So I'm going to say it Gates you really need to make more sizes in your cogs . Dear God please. Just help us out. So yea I don't want to hear it "Why didn't you just make one Tim ,Your such a great machinist" First I'm a tool and die maker don't demote me. Second I can use any machines at work if they aren't being used unfortunately all the CNC mills are being used. Yes I can make one on a manual as we do have a very nice indexer but I'm to lazy. Yes I'm working on a solid model. No I don't know when I'll be done with it and no I don't know when I can get on any of the mills. So I'm just going to use the cog I have until. I do have a nice piece of MIC 6 for the cog and a piece of 7068 I have to figure out which one is the better choice but as I've said I have some time.. Yes I will get it diamond coated as the belts will tear up aluminum. Yes rubber is an abrasive.








Picture of the drive train.
So what did I learn.
The expandable urethane worked. If you need to go that route get the good stuff as its a one shot deal.
Belt drive +Alfine +fat tires = pain in the a--. Might work for skinny road tires but its very tight around were the belt /cog and tire meet at the chain stay. Still don't have any idea why Shimano didn't fix these issues with the Alfine 11. They blew it. Really who uses BSC thread? Its not metric or imperial. 
Gates needs to offer more cog and ring sizes. 
I won't do any more conversions unless a lot of money changes hands.

As this is an experimental bike what I will do on the new one.
Seems Deda makes the stiffest stays. Got a pair.
Sliders work the best. You can get a better adjustment with the belt line. Got a pair from PMW.
I'm going to make a window for the belt to pass through on the chain stay as when you use the foam filled stay it becomes very hard to pull the split apart.
I'm getting a Rohloff. Saving money now. Way wider chain line.
Rest of the bike I'll just transfer all the parts from this one. To the new frame.

Well that's it for now. I'll probably start the new frame in a couple of months as I'm busy with other stuff and I'll need a winter project.
later
Tim


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## onlycrimson (Nov 11, 2008)

OT, but what tire is that in post #21?


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

At that time it was a WTB Weir Wolf LT 2.55. 

Tim


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

I love it when ingenuity triumphs. 

The foam is a great idea for stiffening the chainstay. That may solve a problem for a lot of people - Gates should give you some recognition for that one because the negativity had been building up among the naysayers.

The Alfine chainline is a joke. What's the point of Shimano making it in a 135mm when the chainline is really only suited for skinny tyres?


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## Paco Loco (Oct 25, 2007)

Congratulations on finishing your project Tim - great work!

On the subject of the chainline, couldn't you change that if you were machining your own rear belt pulley?


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Paco Loco said:


> Congratulations on finishing your project Tim - great work!
> 
> On the subject of the chainline, couldn't you change that if you were machining your own rear belt pulley?


Yes but only 1.5mm. as the shift cable is in the way and yes I plan on doing that. No there is no way to reroute the shift mechanism as there is a cable guide and some plastic pieces that I'm sure would prematurely wear out if I bent any thing out out alignment and no way to build any type of spacers with out making a new axle.

Tim


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## Paco Loco (Oct 25, 2007)

That is a shame. Definitely seems like Shimano missed a trick there.


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## smdubovsky (Apr 27, 2007)

Looks like the sram imotion has the same problem? The cable pull bits are inside the dropout.


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## slobscene (Oct 11, 2010)

this is mind numbing!!! 
thank you!


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## Inigo Montoya (Dec 25, 2007)

great project! very interesting! thanks for sharing!


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## th1npower (Dec 6, 2010)

GREAT project Tim! I flipped out when I saw this post.. AWESOME!

It's Micah from Bayou Bikes.. been a long time! I'm busting hump as an Intern, but hitting the mtn bike trails regularly. I LOVE the frame you helped me build.. she's been in various builds throughout the years and currently a SS 'round town ride.

I'm hoping to build my 2nd frame this coming June when I have a week vacation.. I may sign with a builder to take a class or get the gear & do it myself.

THANKS so much for the help and encouragement.. :thumbsup:
I hope things are going well for you!!
Micah


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## charlichin (Dec 3, 2010)

Congratulations for the project.

It is an awesome work and a very complete home-made Gates Alfine bike.


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## indian fire trail (Nov 22, 2007)

charlichin said:


> Congratulations for the project.
> 
> It is an awesome work and a very complete home-made Gates Alfine bike.


What the carallo are you haciendo aquí, neno? :thumbsup:


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## charlichin (Dec 3, 2010)

indian fire trail said:


> What the carallo are you haciendo aquí, neno? :thumbsup:


Jajajaja, and I was thinking who the carallo were you, Indian Trail Fire, and then I saw your sign with your blog link and I realized that you were "little marin", muahahahaha.

I just wanted to know what there is outside the foromtb.com.

Greetings from Delft (The Netherlands).


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## indian fire trail (Nov 22, 2007)

BTW, this thread is really, really interesting...


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Interesting comments on belt drive on a Raleigh 29er here on the Twenty Nine Inches site


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## OldWelder (Jan 19, 2011)

*Bottom Bracket is an issue for sure*

I find that when building a frame using this combination that the greatest issue is dealing with the narrow bottom bracket width required to obtain a correct belt-line. In my opinion, if Shimano would simply make the shifter cassette slightly different (like move it out from the hub further) and allow one the ability to adjust the rear sprocket out further from the center line of the hub, then the big cutout in the chainstay needed to clearance the front sprocket could be avoided. Or a least diminished some. It is my biggest issue with the Alfine belt combo. That and the lack of sprocket choices.

When one is trying to stuff the fattest 29er tire possible into an area so close the front sprocket clearance divot it would be nice to be able to more aggressively crimps the inner sides of the chainstays. I've done both. Crimped outer and inner and made it works okay, but life would be simpler if the rear sprocket could be shifted over, say, 3mm.

As you can see in this image, there is plenty of room to move the shifter cassette out some.









This tire is a 2.1 and it barely fits.









This was an super short wheel base with a 46tx24t combo which required tucking the tire in closer to the seattube (shorter chainstays), and that meant moving the seattube forward by curving it at the bottom bracket. The bottom bracket had to stay where it was to save toe clearance. The result was a bike that could handle some really tight technical turns (like between big boulders and stumps) without feeling like a semi truck in 7-11 parking lot, and then out onto the highway for a faster pace run to the next destination like in an old fashion French style day race. I find the top speed of the Alfine too slow to suit me. I just ordered two 11spd Alfines today, one for a town bike and one for a 29er. We'll see how that works out. Price is a little steep right now, but I think they'll come down when there are more than only 50 available each time they show up at the distributor.

These are just my opinions based on my own experience. Some might have a better idea than me, so if anyone does, say so. I'm here to learn.

later, OldWelder


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Nice job. Which anti rotation washers did you use to get the cable to route that way? Yes there are a bunch of improvements Shimano could do to the hub. Making the axle 10mm is one. Phill Wood will make you a 26 tooth cog for the Alfine. Its made of steel and cost something like $135. 

Tim


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## OldWelder (Jan 19, 2011)

Thanks Tim. The anti rotation washers were simply reversed from left to right and right to left. That set the angle of shifter cassette close enough to the angle of the seat stay. The frame on this bike had all the control cables (shifter and rear brake) routed inside the frame near the head tube, then run inside through the top tube, and then down through the seat stays where they emerged only inches from where they were required to connect. Nothing on the frame but paint that way. I hate building frames with cable stops and cables stretched all over them like some main city street with phone, cable TV, a power lines hanging from poles, and strung all up and down them. I route my cable through the fork blades on rigid forks when I can too. I just want to see smooth lines.

Later - OldWelder

Cables enter shotgun barrel style.









Note there are no cables until they pop out from the seatstays just in time to hook up.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Old welder
Very nice work indeed. I'm digging the flowing lines. I'll be using the same drop outs as you did on my new frame. Do you find that your able to spread the stay from the drop out easy enough? I was thinking of making a different joint. Something that would bolt to the drop out and bolt to the stay making a sort of window to pass the belt through. That way I don't have to bend the stay. On the new bike tho I'm ditching the Alfine and getting a Rohloff speed hub. I'll be using the Ragley bolt on cable clamps. All of my road bikes have the hidden cables but I figured 3 cables in the same spot would weaken the tube to much. Guess I can't have it all.

Tim


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## OldWelder (Jan 19, 2011)

Tim,

Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I just found the reply notice in my junk mail. To answer your question, I find it easy to spread the seatstay from the dropout. As far as your idea, if I understand you, to create a gap or window to pass the belt through is a good idea and I agree. I have seen several different versions. The builders in Europe have embraces the belt system far more quickly than their American counter parts, so they have already thought of many ways of doing this. You can even buy commercially produced plugs to fit into the seatstays from Fixie Inc. http://www.cycles-for-heroes.com/

Let me know how the Rohloff works out. I have finished my Belt Alfine 11 speed demo called "The Humblebees Project," (www.vimanacycle.com click on "Vimana Brands" link and then on Humblebees to see images. I have a 26er MTB in the works now that will also be using an 11 sp Alfine. This is a much improved hub over the 8 sp. With a 39T sprocket and a 24T cog I hope to achieve the lower end one expects from an MTB. The Humblebees uses a 55T X 24T with the 11 sp and I find the lower end is still really good for a commuter, but the top end needs more leg than I can possibly give it. Its pretty fast!

I hope that info helps. I will root around and see if I can find some images of those couplers that Fixie makes and a few other Euro bike builder folks and post them here.


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## OldWelder (Jan 19, 2011)

*Pass through seatstay*

Images of pass through coupler. Hope this give you some ideas.
























Here is a little different one. I am working on a frame right now that uses the system below but with a different dropout. I think the one above is going to prove the easiest to use for the customer, the end users.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Old Welder
I checked out the web site but didn't see the coupler for sale. How did you get it?

Tim


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## OldWelder (Jan 19, 2011)

I usually roll my own on simple pieces like this. I have a mill and lathe, so I try to make everything I can in house. Mostly its about time, so it just seems easier to jam it out one-off and move on. 

Try send Fixie an email. They are only a Fedex delivery away. Depending on the value, there may not even be a tax at customs.


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## OldWelder (Jan 19, 2011)

Tim,

You can find more images like the ones I posted above at:

http://julieracingdesig.canalblog.com/archives/p30-10.html

This is a French builder whose work is absolutely beautiful. As many years as I have been around metal working, Kris' work is some of the most innovative I have seen. You can learn much from his contributions to bicycle frame building.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Okay so I've already got two projects on the boiler at the moment, but I'm considering doing an 'urban' singlespeed as the next project, and perhaps even stupider, considering using a belt drive.

Now, Questing for Tim and Velobike and whoever else is a proponent of the belts.....do the bastards actually work?

Seriously.

If I design the bike correctly with uber stiff chainstays, the correct alignment specs, etc etc., does the system work?


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Yes they work. Will all my future bikes be belt drive. No. What you need to make it work is
1 stiff stays
2 some way to adjust the yaw out at the hub. (sliders,swingers,horiz drop outs)
3 clearance for the front ring and rear cog as they are much thicker.
4 pay attention to the belt, gear combo as that determines stay length.

If you do get the popping the Rohloff "snubber" will take it out so have a der. hanger ready.

What I do like about it it the absolute quietness of the set up and the no chain oil.
I've got close to 750 miles on it sense I worked the bugs out. 

Tim


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## OldWelder (Jan 19, 2011)

I agree with everything Tim says.

My personal experience is that if it is done right (as described by Tim) then you will have many happy hours of maintenance free cycling. Do it wrong and you will have many hours of frustration. It can bite you.

Gates provides a wealth of information for the independent frame builder. It is advisable to read it.

It is my understanding that Gates will have available by the end of this month their new CenterTrack belts systems. They provide a little more clearance on the chainstay for those who are using Alfine hubs and the alignment becomes, "Less" of an issue although it is still important. Unfortunately, the 4 bolt 39 tooth sprockets are not going to be available for a while (gurrr!) I was told, "Maybe by July." The good news is that during this year they will be adding more choices for belt lengths and more sprocket and cog sizes. Also, prices have dropped and competition is begining to surface (see http://www.schlumpf.ch/hp/zr/zr_engl.htm).

In the realm of bicycling, these belt systems have been around a while now and have been proven more than reliable many times over. My first experience with belt systems dates back to the mid-Eighties when I got my first belt drive Harley. As always I rode it for a few days and then tore into the motor and next thing you know I was pushing well over a hundred horses and the belt never missed a tick. It took everything I could put to it and then some, so when Gates came out with belts for bicycles, I knew it would be a game changer. With the advent of better and better gearhubs, its really a no brainer. With the Gates Corporation behind it, It's not going away any time soon.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Thylacine said:


> ...Now, Questing for Tim and Velobike and whoever else is a proponent of the belts.....do the bastards actually work?
> ...If I design the bike correctly with uber stiff chainstays, the correct alignment specs, etc etc., does the system work?


As Tim said.

The stiffness in the chainstay you want is lateral stiffness. I'm still running my Pompino conversion and have never had a problem or required high tension or a snubber.

And a snubber cured the problem in the conversion I did on a bike that had flexy stays.

I haven't used a front sprocket smaller than 46. The Eu distributors wouldn't sell me a 39t because it causes problems*. This has implications for chainstay clearance if you're designing an mtb.

*I suspect these problems were on bikes that weren't up to scratch.

BTW the Schlumpf belt is ingenious, but the sizes required for a 14mm pitch belt make it unlikely to be good for mtbs, but ok for road.

I'd also suggest a foolproof method of tensioning the belt, because those fools will quickly put the wheel and belt out of alignment and then blame the bike designer for their own incompetence when the belt jumps. IMO the only sensible option is an EBB.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Velobike 
I have to disagree with you on the EBB. You can still have a loose belt with a EBB plus no yaw control. I had a problem with the belt tracking off the hub. Not sure if it was me hacking the stays up or what but the drop outs didn't line up wit the BB shell. A bit of braze on the drop out and some filing took care of it. I really like how PMW does their sliders. You might want to try those out.
If you want a 39 tooth ring you can always order one from the states and have it sent to you. You know I order stuff from Europe all the time. In fact just got a package from Ceeway yesterday.On a side note I talked to the Profile Racing guys at NAHBS. (as I was drooling over their new MTB hubs) I told them about the hole in the market on different size front belt drive rings.I was like please make a 42 and a 44. One guy was like "I'm not sure" the other guy was "Maybe if there's a market" So we will see.

Tim


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

TimT said:


> Velobike
> I have to disagree with you on the EBB. You can still have a loose belt with a EBB plus no yaw control. I had a problem with the belt tracking off the hub. Not sure if it was me hacking the stays up or what but the drop outs didn't line up wit the BB shell...
> 
> ...On a side note I talked to the Profile Racing guys at NAHBS. (as I was drooling over their new MTB hubs) I told them about the hole in the market on different size front belt drive rings.I was like please make a 42 and a 44...


Ah, but we expect high standards from Thylacine so EBB and dropout could be expected to be parallel 

I haven't chased a 39 because of the reported problems, but as you say a 42 would be a good size to have between 39 and 46.


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## JUNGLEKID5 (May 1, 2006)

thanks for all the god info...


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