# Bike shop cold shoulder.. Due to being female?



## 4Butter (Jan 14, 2012)

I have been to about a dozen bike shops. Most of them local and 3 in another state. Out of the dozen I've had 3 shops that were welcoming, informative, and helpful. Two of those were in the other state which is really a bummer. It's mindboggling because many of these shops have great online reviews from other customers. I've been straight up ignored, talked down to like I'm stupid, and generally not taken seriously even when they took the time to speak with me. It's extremely discouraging and frustrating. 

I'm wondering if I'm not feeling the love because I'm a woman because honestly I can't imagine how these places stay open if they treat everyone that way. Has anyone else experienced this? I know I can always order online, but I originally wanted to support a local shop and develop a repoire so when I needed something I'd have a place to go. Am I better off doing everything online? Thanks in advance for your input..


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

There are elitist/ignorant ******bags everywhere. I wouldn't assume it has anything to do with you. In my experience, it always pays to do your own research rather than rely on whichever random stranger happens to be in the shop that day. They may be a jerk or misinformed or just completely clueless so it's better to just assume you're on your own unless there is someone in particular that has built up some trust.


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

Maybe go in with a guy friend and see if he is treated different? 

Or just do business with the places that treated you well. You said one of them was local.

I've been a regular at two bike shops long enough that they know that I'm fairly knowledgeable (thanks MTBR!) so I don't get talked down to much. 

It is kind of a good gauge of a new shop if you go in and act like you don't know anything, and see if they give you good info or bull$hit. But being ignored or treated rudely is not acceptable ever.


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## LadyDi (Apr 17, 2005)

Yeah, I was treated rudely by the elitist co-owner/mechanic of a local shop some years back because (as his wife explained to me) I bought a triple road bike for touring purposes. SHE was really super nice, HE was an absolute jerk when I brought the bike back in within three days for an adjustment. He actually ignored me and looked past me to assist customers that came in after me. I will never give that shop another hard-earned dime.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

It can happen, biking & especially mountain biking, are still male-dominated, and a few would like to keep it that way. Find a good one and stick with it. If at a new shop, provide some info about where you like to ride, I have seen that turn them 180 on a dime, because they realize you are a real rider, not someone who just stumbled in. Also, you do have to spend a little money there at some point, tire kickers that take up a lot of time can be frustrating to shops. My fave shop is not the closest, almost a 1 hour drive. But they treated me right, and loaned and installed a fork for me last winter on my commuter because they knew I actually used it almost every day, and I have tried to repay that with my business since.


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## 4Butter (Jan 14, 2012)

spsoon said:


> There are elitist/ignorant ******bags everywhere. I wouldn't assume it has anything to do with you. In my experience, it always pays to do your own research rather than rely on whichever random stranger happens to be in the shop that day. They may be a jerk or misinformed or just completely clueless so it's better to just assume you're on your own unless there is someone in particular that has built up some trust.


I agree about my own research and that's why I joined here. I've learned a lot!


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## 4Butter (Jan 14, 2012)

MtbRN said:


> Maybe go in with a guy friend and see if he is treated different?
> 
> Or just do business with the places that treated you well. You said one of them was local.
> 
> ...


Yes the one that was local and nice only sells a few boutique brands and they have no stock for even rides around the parking lot. Also they told me you can never jump a 29er and I've found that isn't really all that accurate, but SHE was very nice and I did appreciate that. Just not all that comfy with spending a couple grand for a bike I've never even seen in person..

It's funny you suggested to bring a friend. I've brought a female friend several times to see if it was just me. Even without me having said anything she was like wow how do these people sell anything? By the third shop she actually said to me "well I guess you should be used to this." So yeah it's not just me.


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## 4Butter (Jan 14, 2012)

LadyDi said:


> Yeah, I was treated rudely by the elitist co-owner/mechanic of a local shop some years back because (as his wife explained to me) I bought a triple road bike for touring purposes. SHE was really super nice, HE was an absolute jerk when I brought the bike back in within three days for an adjustment. He actually ignored me and looked past me to assist customers that came in after me. I will never give that shop another hard-earned dime.


That's crazy and ridiculous.. I don't get it. A business in any market can't thrive when owners and employees mistreat the customers. I don't blame you for not going back. I actually brought my friends ride in for a tune up to the shop I bought my last bike from. After they rung her up for the tune up, we walked around for 15 min and not one of the 4 guys that were working offered to even help us. They all sat talking to each other completely ignoring my friend and I. I went over and asked for help and they sent the guy that couldn't have worked there for more than a week, he couldn't answer a single question about their stocked bikes. I won't be giving them another dime either.


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## petey15 (Sep 1, 2006)

I've had similar experiences before. And after that, I vowed to learn as much as I could and learn to do as much work on my bike as I am able. I'm lucky in that all of our local shops are really involved in the biking community and their employees frequently go on group rides. It's a great way to get to know them, and they you and can make the whole experience of bringing a bike in to have work done or purchase a new one less intimidating. They know that I work on my own bike quite a bit, but I also do support them - more so because they know me and treat me fairly. It takes time to build a relationship. I try to come "armed" with as much knowledge as possible (thanks MTBR!). I think women are often unfairly stereotyped as not being mechanically knowledgeable and so you run into this attitude that says "well, I'm not going to bother explaining it to her, because she's not going to understand anyway." The good ones do! One of our local shops offers free mtb repair classes 1x/week and I was pleasantly surprised to see that there were more women than men there. On the other hand, I had a quick release seat post collar break on me one weekend when I was out of town. I had to go to a shop I wasn't familiar with to get a replacement. I walked in and looked around a minute before I approached a shop employee (he did not approach me) and I asked where they had their seat post collars. He looked at me and was like, oh, we don't sell those. I said, "you don't? Wow, because it's a fairly common part". Then he's growing kind of sheepish and was like, "well, can you point out which part you are referring to on the bike?" and I showed him on one of their floor models. Then he asks three of the other guys who were standing around behind the counter. Think they were surprised when I actually knew what size I needed. I should have just purchased that and left well enough alone. But then I inquired about a specific mtb saddle and wondered if they had any in stock. The shop should have had it, or at least known what I was talking about since it was a brand that they specifically sold. He (the first guy who attempted to help me) told me that it wasn't a saddle, it was the name of one of the models and I must have been talking about the saddle that came on that specific model. Okay, that's when I started to become irritated. "No," I calmly explained to him, "it's also a model of a women's-specific performance mtb saddle - I've purchased it before and it's in their catalog." Anyway, I was hoping they might actually have had one in stock. He offered to put in an order but I explained I was from out of town, so no thanks. Sooo aggravating, though. He obviously had no idea about the bikes they sold, let alone parts, yet assumed that I didn't either. Anyway, not all shops are like this, but it also seems that we have to work twice as hard as others because of our gender.


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## miatagal96 (Jul 5, 2005)

You're not feeling the love because they are bad salesmen. They may be treating you that way because you're a woman, but the bottom line is that they were not able to (or didn't care to) try to understand their customer's needs so they didn't get the sale. If I don't like the treatment I get from an owner, I won't go back. If I don't like the treatment I get from a salesperson, I'll give the store a second chance next time I want something and try a different salesperson. 

It doesn't just happen to women. When a rich friend of mine was a dingy-looking student, he went to buy a luxury car at the dealer he went to all the time. He got a new salesman who gave him a real attitude based on the way he looked. My friend told the owner about the experience and the owner demoted the salesman to work in the used car lot. The salesman was the owner's son. Now, that's a good owner.


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## Meowhead (Jan 15, 2012)

That really sucks. I hope you are able to find a friendly place to do business with. I wouldn't give the elitist ones a dime if I were you. I have been lucky enough to find a shop that is partially run by a cool chick that even does workshops just for women.


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## 510667 (Oct 13, 2010)

Meowhead said:


> That really sucks. I hope you are able to find a friendly place to do business with. I wouldn't give the elitist ones a dime if I were you....


+100 on this. My first bike shop, back when I didn't know how to ride, just focused on selling me a bike and they didn't really care if it fit or my experience with it afterwards. This may have just been the individual I was working with but I wasted a lot of money because I didn't know better. That was then.

My current bike shop is awesome, no women work there outside of a part-time sales woman who I see so rarely that I forget she is there. They have never spoken down to me and their primary focus is that every bike they sell fits the person who purchases it. They know that if the person is happy with their purchase that they will return, and that is the heart of good sales practice. I've given them a LOT of money since then, along with the occasional batch of cookies


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

LadyDi said:


> Yeah, I was treated rudely by the elitist co-owner/mechanic of a local shop some years back because (as his wife explained to me) I bought a triple road bike for touring purposes...


HOLY.FREAKING.CRAP.

When I bought my Surly Crosscheck in ~2000, I actually told the LBS I was ordering it through to order a triple crank set to swap out with the standard double it came with because the hills aren't getting any less steep or long, the wind still cranks up to 50mph in this valley, and my knees only keep getting older. I also was hoping to tour with it someday, although the closest I ever came was towing my daughter + a bunch of groceries to town and back in the trailer, and yeah I was thankful for ALL my gears! Anyway, the LBS guys- who all ride- definitely knew the score and they've never ever even mentioned it for better or for worse... 



4Butter said:


> ...I'm wondering if I'm not feeling the love because I'm a woman because honestly I can't imagine how these places stay open if they treat everyone that way. Has anyone else experienced this?...


YES. I'm pretty assertive and thick skinned especially when it comes to dealing with guys, but I've had some seriously bizarro moments over the years, even with my husband right there with me.

Fortunately though there's also some truly great LBS around, although it can take a little digging to find them. They may not be the closest, and they may not be the cheapest, but one gets to the point that the drive and the $$$ is worth it without question. I drop my bikes off with my shop and tell them everything I know that's going on, but then waive my hands and tell them to go nuts finding and fixing anything and everything else. If they run into something major they'll call, but they've got a good bead on what I'm after and always have a solution to offer that makes sense for my kind of riding and budget.

Back in the late 90s I had them upgrade our rigid forks to Rock Shox (Livin' large, lol!). When we came in to pick the bikes up, the shop owner had a huge smile with great news... he'd fished around his sources and found an upgraded fork model for even less $ than we'd planned on spending. It happened to be BRIGHT yellow, but he jumped on it immediately because he knew I could care less about what color it was. :thumbsup:


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## n95girl (Jun 19, 2011)

I know the feeling. I get ignored all the time. When thry do serve me they talk down on me. They ask me what I want, I tell them something light and gears that change wighout clunking. Theu take me to an 800 bike thati know wont give me whati want. I walkout. I must say though Tiago at New Farm in Brisbane was awesome. He weighed each bike for me and since then bought a second hand 2009 merida team D and a new 2009 (Old stock) 2000d carbon. $12000 worth of bikes for 4k. Dont do much mountai, biking yetbut can get up the hills around home. Now I buy all my stuff from Tiago and recommend everyone talk to him. He never laughs at you or makes you feel like an idiot. 

I'm enjoying my bike as well as my partner. We have gone from riding 0km to 25km/ Week a, d increasing. We love our new bikes and one day soon, will take on a trail.

Anyone from Brisbane a beginner or know where we can start mountain biking at a slowbeginner pace?


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## Andrea138 (Mar 25, 2009)

Shop/female POV here... 

I'm a mechanic, and what I've found is that there are a few men out there are sexist. They're the ones that walk up to the counter while I'm in the middle of rebuilding a fork and ask if they can speak to a mechanic (same thing when I answer the phone and the person on the other end asks to speak to a mechanic- men AND women have asked that question). I've even had one that asked if one of the guys could work on his bike instead of me... the guy mechanic he was talking to promptly told him, "sure thing, but so you know, she's a lot better than I am."

What's MUCH more common, is just people who are unpleasant to deal with in general. Occasionally, those people work in bike shops. They are just as unpleasant to deal with whether they're a customer or an employee. I love giving advice- whether or not someone intends to buy something, I'll stand around and talk about bikes all day. A lot of people aren't like that. If they think you're going to ask a lot of questions, they'll avoid you because they're jerks that don't want to help someone with a lot of questions. 

My guess would be that you've run in to a couple of sexist jerks and a lot more general jerks.


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## 4Butter (Jan 14, 2012)

Andrea138 said:


> Shop/female POV here...
> 
> My guess would be that you've run in to a couple of sexist jerks and a lot more general jerks.


Thanks Andrea for your point of view. I'm a paramedic and I agree that likely I've come across many general jerks and fewer sexist jerks. Being that I work in a male dominated and medical field neither type is new and I'm not one to have thin skin either. But I'm certainly not going to give my hard earned money to anyone that's any type of jerk.

Hopefully I can find an Andrea in a shop near me so I can have an actual conversation and I don't know maybe actually buy a bike.


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## Crashman1 (May 17, 2011)

I'm ignored at bike shops...in fact I'm ignored at most small businesses. And look at my name. Most of these guys are just general jerks.

The thing is that they're looking for an easy sell. If a couple walks in, maybe they'll sell two bikes. If a cyclist comes in, maybe they'll sell a couple Presta adapters.

I won't say the salesman are ignoring your gender. I'm just saying that it's one of the many things they consider prior to ignoring you, and probably one of the lesser things.


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## 4Butter (Jan 14, 2012)

Crashman1 said:


> I'm ignored at bike shops...in fact I'm ignored at most small businesses. And look at my name. Most of these guys are just general jerks.
> 
> The thing is that they're looking for an easy sell. If a couple walks in, maybe they'll sell two bikes. If a cyclist comes in, maybe they'll sell a couple Presta adapters.
> 
> I won't say the salesman are ignoring your gender. I'm just saying that it's one of the many things they consider prior to ignoring you, and probably one of the lesser things.


Yeah I guess salesmen in general are pretty slimy. Hadn't really thought about that fact. Thanks for pointing that out Crashman..


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

Andrea138 said:


> (same thing when I answer the phone and the person on the other end asks to speak to a mechanic- men AND women have asked that question).


Not so out of line here, since you never know WHO is answering the phone at a bike shop, or any business. It may be the receptionist or the cashier, and if you have a complicated service question you need to be sure you are talking to someone who can comprehend and answer your question.

One thing that drives me insane is explaining what you need to the person who answers the phone, then having them say "let me transfer you to someone who can help you with that". Then having to explain the exact same thing to the next person.


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## CycleMainiac (Jan 12, 2004)

Sometimes you have to shop for a shop. 

I have been ignored and talked down to many times. It depends on the situation but I have gone as far as to tell shop owners, called out jerks when I catch them lying to me, or just leave and vote with my $$$. 

I am fortunate to live where there is lots of bike shop competition and those that are jerks to women get left out of that huge chunk of business in my town. Most of the owners know this and do a decent job of training staff and supporting women riders and riding groups.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 25, 2009)

MtbRN said:


> Not so out of line here, since you never know WHO is answering the phone at a bike shop, or any business. It may be the receptionist or the cashier, and if you have a complicated service question you need to be sure you are talking to someone who can comprehend and answer your question.
> 
> One thing that drives me insane is explaining what you need to the person who answers the phone, then having them say "let me transfer you to someone who can help you with that". Then having to explain the exact same thing to the next person.


Sorry, I see your point, I should have explained that better... my shop is in an outdoor retail store (think "local flavor" REI). So, when someone calls, one of the up-front people answers, and the caller has to ask for the bike shop, then the call is transferred to us.


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## miatagal96 (Jul 5, 2005)

Andrea - your post reminds me of when I worked for my father's stereo store and a guy with a broken turntable (wow, that dates me) insisted on talking to a man. So I got my father from the back. The guy described his problem and my dad turned to me and asked for my diagnosis. I said, "broken microswitch - $12." Then, in front of the guy, my father asked me to fix the turntable. I couldn't have scripted my dad's response better it I had written it myself.


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## kattrap (Mar 15, 2008)

I would add that you need to use the new power of social media in your favor. Yelp/facebook/tweet/whatever-comes-next about the shop you went into that ignored you for 30 minutes or the great place that fitted you perfectly. Makes it easier for the rest of us to skip the bad apples.


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## Kyle509 (Jul 19, 2006)

I have the opposite problem at my LBS, I send my wife to the shop now because she gets better prices and treatment.


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## Crashman1 (May 17, 2011)

Stripes said:


> In California and North Carolina, the bike shops are far more friendly than what I experienced in Florida. Not sure if the bike cultures are different, or just attitudes in general, or a lot more competition.


 Northern Florida is a pretty rough place, I'll hold back on the caricatures...


sly_foxx said:


> I have the opposite problem at my LBS, I send my wife to the shop now because she gets better prices and treatment.


Possible, that goes with my idea that the "experts" at these places are nothing more than trained salesmen, sizing up the customer for sales potential.


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## Kyle509 (Jul 19, 2006)

Crashman1 said:


> Possible, that goes with my idea that the "experts" at these places are nothing more than trained salesmen, sizing up the customer for sales potential.


My wife and I don't need experts or advice on bike stuff. When we go to a shop, it is for service for a couple things we don't do ourselves. She has gotten noticeably lower labor rates than I and friendly attitudes from the guys there. Can't say I blame them.


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## oldbroad (Mar 19, 2004)

Wait until you get older. You'll go in a shop and a young male sales person will ask if you need any help. You'll say no, not yet, I'm going to look around a little first. And he'll say Well, we have road bikes, bikes you ride in the woods and a great selection of comfort bikes. Those are all along the wall on the right. 

This does not happen in all shops, but it does happen on a regular basis.


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

oldbroad said:


> Wait until you get older. You'll go in a shop and a young male sales person will ask if you need any help. You'll say no, not yet, I'm going to look around a little first. And he'll say Well, we have road bikes, bikes you ride in the woods and a great selection of comfort bikes. Those are all along the wall on the right.
> 
> This does not happen in all shops, but it does happen on a regular basis.


You've just provided a vision of my not-too-distant future.... :eekster:


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## Twilight Error (Jan 12, 2004)

Not a bike shop story, but it does illustrate the point...

My ex and I were computer shopping to replace her rapidly ageing desktop. We were both dressed quite nice, as we'd taken the first half of the evening to see a play and dinner (girls night out/date night type deal). We walked into the compute section of best buy and the salesman tried to sell us something totally other than what she wanted. We walked out without a purchase. 
A week later, I return to the same store in guymode - because they were running a sale on the computer she wanted - and I'm treated like I'm a competent and respected customer. 

For my part, as a shop mechanic, I don't recall ever being disrespectful to any of the women who asked me for advice or help buying a bike. My first question was always "what do you want the bike to do", not "What color do you like".


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## Bethany1 (Jan 18, 2012)

I've had good and bad experiences. Guys know a lot about bikes, but not so much about people. I'm sure it's easy to peg anyone that walks through the door as what kind of shopper they are. It takes time for guys to warm up to people even if they know their bikes but if they are rude right from the start, I walk away. 

Once my LBS realized I serious about cycling and that I kept coming back for stuff, their attitudes changed. It was great to have him order stuff for me and get it within a couple of days. Anything I wanted, he'd know where to look online and find it. I know I could get it cheaper online, but if anything went wrong, I'd have to work with the online store. If I purchased it through the store, they could easily send it back or work with me to fix it.

The only I wish my LSB would do is have fancier stuff. They cater to the average cyclist and I've moved up to wanting better items. I didn't know a lot of other bike stuff existed until I went to other shops and via the forums. 

I was returning some tires that the owner had let me try out for a couple of days and there was an older lady that looked like she knew nothing about bikes or at least looked totally bored at what she was looking at. I knew the owner had bought some TOL components for his bike and he took me over and the lady followed. When he started showing off the components and lifted up the bike to show how light it was, her eyes lit up with excitement and she oohed and awed over it. Even when he said the bike was 8000 dollars, she didn't even flinch and said it was a beautiful bike.

I knew she wasn't ready to buy a bike that day, but knowing she appreciated the value of a bike made realize I shouldn't judge. I think she was bored of the bikes choices on the floor and probably needed something far more interesting to ride than what he offers.

Even though I don't sell bikes, I felt bad for judging her.


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## godsang (May 24, 2010)

I live in NJ and I feel like cyclists and mt bikers are like minorities in the world of sports. The NJ/DE/MD/PA area is full of bike shops and biking advocacy groups that promote the sport of biking to the local government and to the community. Maybe since we want our sport to be well known, better respected, safe, and fun, we tend to band together more than other areas. Not sure... just an idea. 

I have always received great service from my local bike shop and from any others in the area that I happen to visit. Out of all the people I know who ride, I've never heard a complaint about a bike shop... ever. All this helps me form the opinion that bike shops are pretty focused on great customer service. I think this is the way it should be in any store, but I truly appreciate the shops in my area after reading this thread. 

Biking has been an area of my life where I have not experienced gender bias in stores, roads, trails, etc. Of course women are in the minority in biking, but the shops want to change that. Also, the male riders in my area support and respect women getting into the sport. I must admit I've been spoiled. Any bias I've ever felt because I'm a woman has been solely in my own head. I often expect to be discriminated against, but then I'm happily surprised when I'm not. 

I think that every woman should have what I have! If a shop isn't providing it, go somewhere else!


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## Blister Butt (Jul 20, 2005)

Hi 4Butter,

Sorry to hear about your experiences. On the bright side of things, I don't think the treatment you experienced has anything to do with being a woman. On the bad side of things, the treatment you received is typical for many bike shops, whether you're male or female. The bottom line is most bike shop personnel are rude, arrogant and/or indifferent toward customers. Many people work at bike shops because they are "really into biking" and are excited about the access they get to industry discounts, tool benches to work on their own bikes, and insight into the latest-greatest technology and components showing up in the industry. I say this as owner of a small bike shop.

Part of the reason I decided to get into the industry is because of the horrible treatment I, and nearly every single person I know, routinely experiences at bike shops. Your experience is not an anomaly; it typifies the industry.

I still routinely peruse my competitors' shops incognito and I always have a good laugh at how badly I'm treated when I go into bike shops. I believe it has a lot to do with the mere fact that I don't look like a "cyclist," whatever that means. Bike shop employees routinely make assumptions about customers or prospective sales based on looks alone or how they happen to be feeling about life in general at the time a customer walks into the store. The experience you receive from an employee can be highly variable. The employee may be nice one day and a total ass the next. This is too bad and it pains me. People within the bike industry are generally the worst enemies of the bike industry, with several meritorious and notable exceptions, I might add, so don't lump every bike shop or bike shop employee into the "sucks" category based on sight alone.

You shouldn't be expected to look a certain way or to "have done your homework" before you walked into a shop. That's what employees are for: to help you make the best decision and purchase, based on your particular needs, desires, budget and personal beliefs and biases. Buying a bike is a highly personal experience for a lot of people. There are bikes out there for everyone. There is no single "right answer" when it comes to buying a bike, but there sure are a lot of wrong answers out there—and unfortunately, a lot of people get steered into buying them from inattentive or apathetic bike shop employees. This breaks my heart and it is utter suicide for our industry.

My advice to you: Find a shop that is responsive to your needs. Find a shop that will listen to you BEFORE pointing you toward some prospective bikes to purchase. Go into a bike shop with a fairly good idea of what you want to use your bike for, how often, and what your price parameters are. Once you have a handle on those things, a good bike shop employee will be able to best assist you. Don't buy a bike on your first visit (unless you find one that fits so well and so utterly excites you so much that it says Buy Me! right then and there). Build a rapport with the people in the bike shop over the course of several visits if necessary. Narrow your choices. Settle upon the bike you like in a color you like (yes, color matters very much to individuals).

After you buy your bike, go back to your local bike shop frequently to get your questions answered or to get the fit of your bike adjusted just right. Go to your bike shop to learn how to change a tire and do basic maintenance on your bike. All of these things will empower you. A good bike shop and its employees will make you feel empowered. All of these things will enhance your experience with your bike and your shop.

If you ask me whether finding a good shop a long distance away is worth it? I would say that it probably is, even though finding a good one nearby would be terrific. If you ask me whether buying a bike online and rolling the dice with followup support is worth it? I would probably say it is not.

Customer support and service are the advantages of your local bike shop, if you can find a local bike shop that provides those things without pain or after an arduous courtship. It may be hard to find a shop that delivers these things, but eventually you will find one. If not, that means the world is going to end, in which case it won't matter anyway. I can pretty much say with certainty that it is highly unlikely that you will find an online dealer that will provide you with satisfactory after-purchase customer service and support. This is why local bike shops are important and why I am an advocate for them. Even the dumb ones.

Best wishes in your biking endeavors! Keep seeking and you will find. I'm nearly totally certain of that!

--Jim


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## 4Butter (Jan 14, 2012)

Blister Butt said:


> Best wishes in your biking endeavors! Keep seeking and you will find. I'm nearly totally certain of that!
> 
> --Jim


Thanks Jim for the run down and everyone else that contributed. Glad to know my experience isn't abnormal, although it would obviously be better if shops were better. Either way I'll only buy from a shop that treats me right! Thanks again everyone..


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