# Disc Brakes VS. V-Brakes



## Garlock (Jul 9, 2008)

I want to make a compilation of pros and cons of different styles of brakes. Please help out and oost pros and cons of Hidraulic Discs, V-B, and Mech Disks.


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## daleksic (Aug 26, 2007)

I love my V's, they are extremely strong and stop on a dime. I was able to break down from around 23mph to 0mph just with the front brake, with my ass in the saddle and lift off the rear wheel about 6 inches of the ground; and that with not too much force on the lever. (BTW, I weigh in at around 185lbs).

Here's the thing though. I needed to upgrade my wheels. If you want higher end wheels you don't get the benefit of a V-Brake machined surface (or at least the choices are slim). So when I bought my DT Swiss wheelset I'm now converting to BB7 disk brakes (should be on my bike this weekend).

Another thing is weight. V's are a lot lighter than any other brake combo. A lot of XC race bikes run with V's due to weight. The V's don't drag. V's stay cool. Disks get HOT, you know how hot once you got your first burn scar. Best way to prevent burns from disks is to put in the skewer from the other side in the front (you can't do that in the back).

On the negative side, the only time my brakes crapped out was in mud, it was only about 20 feet until i regained control of my brakes but in other situations that could have been 20 feet to much. I do sometimes have to readjust my brakes (on the levers) for even pull and modulation.

If you go with a V'brake setup, do yourself a favor and get the Koolstop MTB dual compound pads. Those are by far the best ones out there. They have a small black part which is for dry conditions and a large Salmon colored part that is for wet. They work in wet just as good as in dry.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Disc:

Pro: Works good
Con: Costs money

V's

Pro: Cheap
Con: Totally sucks


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## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

I bought a new bike and wanted to get disc brakes with it. I don't care about extra weight as I don't race or compete, but the stopping power seems better.


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## Three Phase (May 15, 2006)

Jim311 said:


> Disc:
> 
> Pro: Works good
> Con: Costs money
> ...


I disagree on the totally sucks bit. A good V-brake setup will perform almost as good as discs in every condition except wet. Plus, as mentioned before, they are light weight. All this being said, I run Formula k18s. They work most excellently.


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## SteveUK (Apr 16, 2006)




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## DIRTmrchnt (Jun 17, 2008)

i think daleksic hit the nail on the head. in order for me to swap to the forks i wanted(only disc compatable) i had to get new wheels or atleast a front. There were a few wheelsets that were both disc and V compatable but a buddy gave me his old Avid BB7's(mechanical disc) to get me rolling. The V's i had originally blew goat's teets when wet, now i can go through a creek that's 5" or so deep and not have to worry about stopping power after. Difference between mech disc and hydraulic... Hydraulics supposedly have a smoother lever feel but when i ride my buddy's bike with Hayes hydros i don't like them, could be how he has them set up but they're either locked up or nothing and i hate it. Don't have to worry about bleeding mech. discs or fluid levels either as you might with hydros.


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## aaron04 (May 26, 2008)

There is no comparison, discs are far superior in every way. I am surprised V brakes havent been totally discontinued yet, at least on mtb's. I have J 7's and they are quiet, have never gotten super hot and always work the same whether they are wet, dirty or dry, they always work great. I rode a bike with v brakes the other day and they felt terrible, they would grip and then slip, I almost washed out the front end because they were so unpredictable. I could never go back to V brakes.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Well without having read any of this thread here is my opinion whether it has been said already or not.

*Vs Pros:*
Lighter
Less money
*
Vs Cons:*
They scratch the rims.
They don't stop as good.
They clog up with mud easier which hinders braking ability.
Pads need replacing more frequently.

*Discs
Pros:*
Better stopping
They don't scratch the rims.
They don't clog up with mud.
Pads need replacing less frequently.

*Disks Cons:*
Heavier
Depending on if they are hydraulic or not, bleeding the lines.
More money

Unless you are a XC racer and weight is an issue the Discs out perform Vs in every way accept weight and price.
And don't let the fact that you have to bleed the lines of hydraulics and change the pads scare you away from buying them. This rarely has to be done and if you are uncomfortable doing it a bike shop charges very minimal to do it.


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## wreckedrex (May 2, 2007)

V brakes:
cheap
light
simple
good enough for most folks

Disk:
more power all around
better wet condition performance
better modulation
easier on the wrists
no worn out rims
lower maintenance


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## JimC. (Dec 30, 2003)

*look*

in the BRAKES forum, under disc brake FAQ; the whole subject is covered there.

Or you can rehash it here again if you want.

Jim


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

Pros:

Will give tons of material to people to rant (er, sorry, post) about.

Cons:

This debate probably will never end..


Anyway, it's almost impossible to say that universally X brake system is better than the other.

Here are my thoughts:

V's:
Pros:
- Light weight
- Cheap (most of them)
- Easier to mix and match levers
Cons:
- Not as powerfull as discs
- Muddy, they can damage rims in the long run.
- Not as good modulation
- Can make harder to install wider tires.
- Can and will likely need two fingers over long downhill runs.

Applications where better:
- Dry or semi dry weather
- XC hardtails
- XC races
- Budget constrains

Disc brakes
Pros:
- Good power.
- Good modulation. In general, better performing over V's.
- Better for muddy weather or trails
- One finger braking, even after long downhill sections
- Protect rims over the long run.
- Some are not that heavy.

Cons:
- More expensive
- Heavier
- Can get hot
- Some can squeal like a piglet when wet

Applications where better:
- For AM, FR and DH
- Full suspension bikes
-


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## ettore (Nov 13, 2004)

Discs
Pros: Low maintenance, consistent power no matter what you're doing
Cons: Can sometimes squeal.

V
Pros: Simple, cheap
Cons: Increased rotational mass (disc rims weigh more, offsetting v-brake lightness), wheels need to be very true for consistent braking.

I like my discs primarily for the lack of screwing with them. I put in my pads, and replace them MANY moons later and it takes like 2 minutes and a small shim of plastic to separate the pads (hydraulic). Secondary benefit to me is I can DH or XC with my brakes, 6" is plenty for a person of my weight (165lbs). Tertiary would be the fact that my wheel can be out of true by a mile and they still work perfectly. I don't get rubbing issues with any of my setups (Hayes Nine, plain "Hayes (look like the Nines), and my XTR ones) as many seem to get.

I haven't used V in a while, but the amount of power you can get from them is insane. Anyone who claims v-brakes don't have enough power are idiotic, my GF's father's bike has probably the worst V brakes I have ever seen and I can send myself over the handlebars in a second.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

ettore said:


> Discs
> Pros: Low maintenance, consistent power no matter what you're doing
> Cons: Can sometimes squeal.
> 
> ...


Sure Vs have great power but very little modulation which in turn they can lock up and send you over the bars without warning.


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## Garlock (Jul 9, 2008)

My saying is: "What do I need better brakes for? They just make me go slower."
I use 2003 XTR V-Brakes on CrossMax rims. They don't break as good as hydraulics, I noticed this when I rode someone else's bike; but they get the job done. I recently realized that I needed more than 16 feet to stop with my front brake on a downhill, but that's ok with me. 

As for better braking, I don't see why you argue so much. If you lock the brakes you'll skid and you'll still take more time to come to a stop, or you will lose control. So instant breaking is useless for me. I can see why people use them for freeriding and DH, but having hydraulics seems like too much trouble otherwise.

I have V-Brakes on one bike, and Discs on the other, and I like the Vs more for XC. 

Protip: As fun as it might seem, never put wax on your discs.


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## Rufudufus (Apr 27, 2004)

*Hydro vs mech*

Since no one's covered this:

Hydro:
Lighter than mech
Better modulation, usually
No cable-housing friction
Need to be bled occasionally

Mech:
Heavier
Cheaper
Cables-housing needs to be replaced periodically

I agree with Daleksic on the Koolstop pads, good stuff! Honestly, Vs work great in most conditions, not so much in mud.


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## daleksic (Aug 26, 2007)

I don't understand where people pull the fact (probably out of their a$$) that V-brakes are cheaper. Ever looked at some decent XT brakes or some Paul components. $180 each is not cheap. And these will outperform Disks just about everywhere but mud (and maybe even there). I rode with BB5 brakes before and they SUCK. I couldn't get the rig to stop to save my life!

Let's mention here then:

Disks- need to be broken in properly or they'll never work correct! V's work right out of the box (as long as they are on the bike).

V's (in the same price class as Disks) are just as good. That's why they haven't been completely discontinued. That is why so many people still use them. (And I'm not talking about the cheap $hit that comes on a WallyWorld bike).


Disks - sure look cool.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

daleksic said:


> I don't understand where people pull the fact (probably out of their a$$) that V-brakes are cheaper. Ever looked at some decent XT brakes or some Paul components. $180 each is not cheap. And these will outperform Disks just about everywhere but mud (and maybe even there). I rode with BB5 brakes before and they SUCK. I couldn't get the rig to stop to save my life!
> 
> Let's mention here then:
> 
> ...


Well, just to put some things in perspective, 180 for some disc isn't that cheap, some go 200+. You're comparing some 60 bucks disc brakes with some 180 v's... But most V's are pretty cheap.

Go with some good hydros (priced lower than 180) and your opinions about disc not being able to stop will change.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

rzozaya1969 said:


> Well, just to put some things in perspective, 180 for some disc isn't that cheap, some go 200+. You're comparing some 60 bucks disc brakes with some 180 v's... But most V's are pretty cheap.
> 
> Go with some good hydros (priced lower than 180) and your opinions about disc not being able to stop will change.


Yup!
And the only reason Vs haven't been discontinued in the MTB scene is because of the lightness factor. If you are racing XC you would be stupid to run discs and have that extra weight when Vs will work fine and save you in the weight department.
There will always be weight weenies in our sport and until they make discs weight comparable to Vs. Then Vs will be around for some time to come.
The price it would cost to make discs weight comparable to Vs would be outrageous. With exotic materials such as Titanium and Carbon Fiber and we know most people won't spend that kind of coin, so I believe Vs are here to stay.


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## Juanmoretime (Jul 30, 2004)

I run Avid Ultimate V's and levers on my GT Zaskar. Recently on a ride my buddy wanted me to try his new bike. He has disc on all of his bikes. I tried his new bike and he rode mine. His Hayes brakes were OK. He was totally blown away at the performance of the Avid Ultimates. They do work pretty well in mud too. Sure you pay $400 for them but I really am happy with them.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

My 2 cents. I have Avid Ultimate V's with Ti bolts on ceramic rims on my full ridgid CC race sled. There is nothing lighter and as maintenance free offered in the disc world. They are more powerful than my wifes 6" Martas, but they don't stay fade free like the Martas when the trail points down. We don't get wet weather here too often, but obviuosly, the discs will work better. For all mountain, I run Gustavs, which make every other disc brake pale in comparison.


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## Polar Bear (Mar 4, 2008)

Who Brakes?

Around here, it is frowned upon (by the locals) to ride the trails when they are wet (after a rain). Of course there are spots that are always wet or muddy (stream crossings, muddy sections, etc.) and I find that a nice pair of V's (Avid SD-7's) with ceramic rims (Mavic Crossmax) and proper pads (Kool Stop Green) work great. Even after going through mud, they make some noise for a minute and then stop making noise. 

If I were a racer, and had to race whether the trails were dry or wet, I'd choose discs. However, local "rules" forbid riding the trails right after a rain. When it rains around here, I usually ride street until things dry out. 

So, it's not a necessity by any means for me. The only thing that is bad about V's is that it is getting harder to find high quality frames, forks, and wheels that still support them. Your choices are limited. For this reason, my next bike will probably have discs.


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## jaymo (Jun 12, 2007)

Polar Bear said:


> Who Brakes?
> 
> So, it's not a necessity by any means for me. The only thing that is bad about V's is that it is getting harder to find high quality frames, forks, and wheels that still support them. Your choices are limited. For this reason, my next bike will probably have discs.


X2

Riding an older Mojo has kept me riding V's. And have been very happy with them, stops great. But I have been looking at new bikes, and it looks like I'll be riding with discs soon.:madman:


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Heck, all the rim-brake fanatics should run HS33s, then they could have their rim brakes AND modulation! 


There's a reason why V brakes are dissapearing. Mostly it has to do with them being inferior. Disc brakes are good enough for my car, good enough for my bike. Drum brakes are cheaper and lighter too.


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## wreckedrex (May 2, 2007)

daleksic said:


> I don't understand where people pull the fact (probably out of their a$$) that V-brakes are cheaper. Ever looked at some decent XT brakes or some Paul components. $180 each is not cheap. And these will outperform Disks just about everywhere but mud (and maybe even there). I rode with BB5 brakes before and they SUCK. I couldn't get the rig to stop to save my life!.


I've got a set of XTR v brakes w/ XT levers. Great power, nice 'n light, no modulation and crappy fade resistance. They get the job done, but my XT hydros do it better and only need one finger. Also, FWIW, my brother had a set of BB7's on the loaner hard tail. It's thrown everyone who had ridden it over the bars in spite of repeated earnest warnings. Never really cared for the things myself, but they had plenty of power.


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## daleksic (Aug 26, 2007)

There is a general misconception about disk brakes being better for the car. It is actually weaker then the drums, however it is easier to maintain. Drum brakes are used on trucks religiously because they are much stronger. The new brake technology for the cars of the next decade are based on Drums because they are more powerfull.

So just because your car has disks doesn't mean your bike has to. Disks look very nice and give that Moto Style look on a bicycle. Each has its own application but none is inferior to the other in every way. V's are better for some than for others. 

Like I said again. If it wasn't for the occasional mud and flooded trails I'd stick with my V's. Which worked for me so far (until this summer).

BTW, If weight wouldn't matter, why don't you trade your aluminium or carbon frame for a good 'ol steel horse? Why bother with that $2000+ lightweight bike, get one from Walmart they come with disks now too!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

daleksic said:


> There is a general misconception about disk brakes being better for the car. It is actually weaker then the drums, however it is easier to maintain. Drum brakes are used on trucks religiously because they are much stronger. The new brake technology for the cars of the next decade are based on Drums because they are more powerfull.


A stick can stop you just fine, but we don't equip bikes or cars with sticks. Discs are used due to their resistance to fade, and the amount of control that they provide. Hmm, that's also why we use them on mountain bikes too. All this time I thought that F1 cars that had to slow down from 200mph+ speeds used discs. Also, airliners use disc brakes, in fact they use multiple rotor and stator arrangements with sometimes more than 20 pistons arranged in a circular pattern around the disc.

Hmm, good enough to stop a 747 or A380 from the speeds that they land at?

Drum brakes? haha!

Vs are inferior to discs in every way except for cost and weight, although there are quite a few setups that hold their own in both areas pretty well now.


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## daleksic (Aug 26, 2007)

Brake School:

Aircraft Brake (also called "Aircraft Brake") has nothing to do with a Disk brake found in an Automobile. The reason why they don't use disk brakes: Not strong enough. See picture below. A disk would have no chance there. Also Boeing and Airbus use thrust to brake as well... brakes would weld together if they just would use that.

F1 Cars don't weigh 2 tons, so considering their light weight and high speed the disks perform on the limit of its capability - barely. There are new Multi-caliper disk brakes in development but they are having troubles dissipating the heat if a wheel is attached to it.

Drum brakes are used on trucks due to their high stopping power. There is a lot more surface area of rotating to non-rotating material; therefore more stopping power. A disk couldn't stop 10t or 20t of moving weight.

So there again, to each its own. They are all the best in their own application. So don't raise the idiot flag if you don't know it.


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## Timon (May 11, 2008)

one con i've found with V brakes is that they'll rub when leaning the bike back and forth (to generate more torque/power). not sure if its due to a flexing fork, front wheel flex, or the springs in the brakes being weak...but it happens.


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## aaron04 (May 26, 2008)

"Drum brakes are used on trucks due to their high stopping power. There is a lot more surface area of rotating to non-rotating material; therefore more stopping power. A disk couldn't stop 10t or 20t of moving weight."


When I managed a lumber yard our lumber truck had a terrible time stopping on mountain roads with the stock drum brakes, we wanted to upgrade the brakes to get it stopped and slowed faster. took it to a truck company and they converted it to disc brakes, it was like night and day how much better the discs were. We were even givin a discount on the liability insurance for converting to disc brakes.
As for more surface area on a drum, would that be true? A disc uses both sides of the rotor, that's a lot of surface area. I guess I would have to do some math on the interior surface of a drum versus both sides of a rotor.


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## BlurredVision (Jul 1, 2007)

My Avid SD 5 v brakes, set em and forget em, stop on a dime except in mud and I dont ride in mud. My friends OE Hayes Discs... life threatening, might be part of the axis of evil. The BB7's i put on his bike, much better but still need constant attention. For under $30 I'll stick with my SD 5's and put the money toward something else.


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## f3rg (Aug 29, 2007)

Love my Avid v-brakes!

Pros:
no rotating mass
stop on a dime
light

Cons:
frame and fork options are limited nowadays
lousy in mud, but I don't ride in mud because it's destructive to the trails


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

daleksic said:


> Brake School:
> 
> Aircraft Brake (also called "Aircraft Brake") has nothing to do with a Disk brake found in an Automobile. The reason why they don't use disk brakes: Not strong enough. See picture below. A disk would have no chance there. Also Boeing and Airbus use thrust to brake as well... brakes would weld together if they just would use that.
> 
> ...


I'll raise the idiot flag. That picture is of a disc brake, it has mutliple discs and stators, the pistons are on the right side. Depending on the aircraft, they go from simple discs with one or two pistons, to the multiple disc and piston design, as pictured. The concept is exactly the same as a simple disc brake, but with more discs and pads, in fact shimano tried a multiple brake-track disc brake a few years ago that had essentially two close rotors, and 3 pads (one sandwiched between the rotors). It was too powerfull, but the point is that the aircraft brake is just an extention of a disc brake, more rotors, not really some magical or highly technical brake system.

Not to mention that they try not to use thrust reverse much, because it burns more jet fuel and in the end it's cheaper to replace disc pads, so they tend to minimize the use of the reverse thrust.

I know a thing or two about these subjects.


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

MWAAAHA HA HA HA HA HA...I agree!



SteveUK said:


>


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

daleksic said:


> There is a general misconception about disk brakes being better for the car. It is actually weaker then the drums, however it is easier to maintain. Drum brakes are used on trucks religiously because they are much stronger. The new brake technology for the cars of the next decade are based on Drums because they are more powerfull.


um... no.

disc brakes are are far more powerful, modulate better, and are far more resistant to brake fade under heavy usage.

when a brake drum heats up the braking surface moves away from the shoes, causing a loss in modulation as well as brake fade. conversely, when a disc brake heats up the braking surface moves towards the pads effectively limiting brake fade to the characteristics of the pad material and ability of the rotors to dissipate heat.

speaking of which, disc brakes dissipate heat much faster than do drums.

disc brakes are less affected by wet conditions than are drums.

the only downside to disc brakes in automotive applications is if the brake fluid overheats and vaporizes in the lines, causing brake fade and loss of stopping ability. this happens very, very rarely (read virtually never) in cars.



daleksic said:


> Drum brakes are used on trucks due to their high stopping power. There is a lot more surface area of rotating to non-rotating material; therefore more stopping power. A disk couldn't stop 10t or 20t of moving weight


actually, no, they are not used due to superior stopping power; and discs are plenty capable of stopping 20 or more tons.

hydraulic fluid overheating is a large reason discs are not used in semi's. the drum brake system uses air to cause the pads to DISENGAGE from the drum. using this method there is zero chance of brake fade due to the over heating of brake fluid.

also, semi trucks use a jake brake which helps them go down very long grades without causing overheating and brake fade of the drums.

additionally, semi trucks have 5 axles with brakes on each wheel whereas cars only have 2 providing much, much more total contact area between the drum and the shoes; thus reducing brake fade and over heating.

so no, there are other mitigating factors that keep drum brakes on semi's but one of them is not because drums are more powerful in and of themselves than are discs.



daleksic said:


> Aircraft Brake (also called "Aircraft Brake") has nothing to do with a Disk brake found in an Automobile. The reason why they don't use disk brakes: Not strong enough. See picture below. A disk would have no chance there. Also Boeing and Airbus use thrust to brake as well... brakes would weld together if they just would use that.


um... no again.

aircraft brakes ARE disc brakes. however, they are a multiple rotor/pad/stator setup although the basic principle is the same.

if you look at the picture you yourself provided you will see multiple rotors with multiple pads being actuated by the hydraulic pistons to the far right of the picture.

but jayem pointed this out before you even posted the picture when he said "_they use multiple rotor and stator arrangements with sometimes more than 20 pistons arranged in a circular pattern around the disc._"

so yes, aircraft DO use disc brakes.

_*EDIT: jayem - sorry, wasnt trying to steal your thunder. got a phone call in the middle of posting and was away from the computer for a bit. when i finally finished and posted i saw you had already addressed this.*_


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

I never installed v-brakes, tested a couple of bikes with them, but found them spongy and weak, requiring a lot of lever movement to engage. For rim brakes I ran hs33s for years and only moved to disk brakes for better performance in the mud.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

marzjennings said:


> I never installed v-brakes, tested a couple of bikes with them, but found them spongy and weak, requiring a lot of lever movement to engage


you actually bring up another caveat to using v's. to reduce lever travel to engage they have to be very close to the rim. this means the brake system is much more affected by wheel true. if the wheel gets out of true even a small amount pad rub will occur. if this happens during a long ride one must either live with the rub or widen the v's, thereby increasing lever travel.

discs are unaffected by wheel true.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I don't think the modulation of discs is really appreciated.*

There is so much braking range to be used before lock-up in a disc over V-brakes. It allows for more supple performance at all speeds and deeper braking before lock-up means more speed deeper into turns and greater control when heavy stopping is needed.

I have XTR V-brakes on my Bontrager Race Lite due to it's age and they are fine. They keep the weight down and stop when I need them. However, they are nothing compared to my Avid Mech's.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

monogod said:


> _*EDIT: jayem - sorry, wasnt trying to steal your thunder. got a phone call in the middle of posting and was away from the computer for a bit. when i finally finished and posted i saw you had already addressed this.*_


No problem, idiot patrol is accomplished. :thumbsup:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> ...*supple* performance...


excellent adjective for discs... :thumbsup:


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## Rufudufus (Apr 27, 2004)

My first car was a 65 Mustang with drums on all four wheels. Coming back from ski trips I'd have to pull over a couple times to let the brakes cool because they overheated and lost most of their stopping power on long descents. If drums are the future, I'll keep my disk-equipped Honda, thank you.


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## Xtradust (Jul 3, 2008)

I never had any problems with my V-brakes. Set 'em and forget 'em. 

But, with my new discs, I feel so much cooler! I've started to wear my gold chains and spandex on rides again...


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## f3rg (Aug 29, 2007)

> I never installed v-brakes, tested a couple of bikes with them, but found them spongy and weak, requiring a lot of lever movement to engage.


My wife's bike has Tektro OEM v's on it and they have that sponge feeling you're talking about. You certainly can't judge them all based on that, though. I have Avid Single Digits with FR-5 levers and they have very little travel after I fine tuned them, and they stop my bike like a tree branch in the spokes with 1 finger.

Rubbing the rim can be an issue on cheap wheels that come out of true often, but I've never had that problem with my Rolf's.


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

This may be true although V's are an XC item only when you think about their nature. Using them for anything other than that and it's your arse in the wind really. For example, if you are unlucky enough (and I have been) to get a small stone (I mean like large grit or a sand pieces) sandwidged in between the pad (even thought they have a type of pad Sype I guess) and rim face...well, you can blow a rim, receive catastrophic damage to the rim or small serrations that greatly reduce performance and then we go down the dust, water, mud and slime arena. I have to say that in years past I have damaged perhaps 4 or 5 rims with some being cheap others being top shelf, due to this and 1 due to a flat spot and wobble from hitting a large rock on the wrong angle and had to limp all the way back with NO Fr brake at all.:skep: 

Inherently the V is a dated design whereby recently disc materials development is initiating a higher spec of strong light weight materials that will soon rival the V in not only function but also weight. Magura has some fairly feather weight styled Discs as well as other companies, yet MANY XC racers are edging away from the Vs... Nevertheless, there are always sticklers who rampage on the concept of changing from the V due to their apparent superiority. I say choose what works best for the situation of course, but the weight to performance ratio will always allow me to spec a good light weight set of discs over V any day of the week.



f3rg said:


> My wife's bike has Tektro OEM v's on it and they have that sponge feeling you're talking about. You certainly can't judge them all based on that, though. I have Avid Single Digits with FR-5 levers and they have very little travel after I fine tuned them, and they stop my bike like a tree branch in the spokes with 1 finger.
> 
> Rubbing the rim can be an issue on cheap wheels that come out of true often, but I've never had that problem with my Rolf's.


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## BlurredVision (Jul 1, 2007)

Not sure where the whole drum brake thing started but I'm guessing someone was trying to compare V Brakes to drum brakes and this couldn't be more off. V brakes and disc brakes are effectively both disc brakes if you're going to compare them to drum brakes. V brakes just happen to have a 26" rotor. This inherrantly also gives V brakes the mechanical advantage, stopping a rotating mass is easier at the outer edge then in the center where disc brakes operate which is why disc brakes with larger rotors stop better than discs with smaller rotors. Heat dissipation is another issue. In theory, due to the amount of contact time on any iven area between brake pad and rotor surface, V brakes should heat up slower. Of course they would also cool down slower due to the fact that it's kind of tough to cross drill a rim and there is a huge insulator between the inner surfaces of the rotor aka... a tire/ tube filled with compressed air. Different pad and rim/ rotor materials as well as design will have a major effect on the performance of both. If all things are equal, (propper set up, brake pad material matched to rotor surface etc.) there's no reason V brakes shouldnt be equal to or even out perform mechanical disc brakes. Of course the notable exception is mud but Im guessing if you rode through mud deep enough to cover your discs there'd be stopping issues there too... then again, if the mud is that deep, braking isnt going to be an issue. 

There are 1000000 variables that go into the disc vs V debate and others such as wheel construction, etc but we've been stopping with rim brakes since we all let go of the coaster brake. Disc brakes are really revolutionizing anything except the pockets of parts manufacturers. My guess is my next bike will have disc brakes but you will continue to see v brakes on entry level stuff because of ease of maintainance and reliability and they stop bikes for 99% of us. We could all put 6 piston calipers on our cars too but it isn't necessary for most of us.


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## f3rg (Aug 29, 2007)

Sim2u: my bigger issue with discs is that my frame is an '00 and only accepts v's. Otherwise, I'd probably give them a try.

What people shouldn't do, though, is go from $10 OEM v's to $200 discs and start comparing the two different types.


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## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

aaron04 said:


> "Drum brakes are used on trucks due to their high stopping power. There is a lot more surface area of rotating to non-rotating material; therefore more stopping power. A disk couldn't stop 10t or 20t of moving weight."
> 
> When I managed a lumber yard our lumber truck had a terrible time stopping on mountain roads with the stock drum brakes, we wanted to upgrade the brakes to get it stopped and slowed faster. took it to a truck company and they converted it to disc brakes, it was like night and day how much better the discs were. We were even givin a discount on the liability insurance for converting to disc brakes.
> As for more surface area on a drum, would that be true? A disc uses both sides of the rotor, that's a lot of surface area. I guess I would have to do some math on the interior surface of a drum versus both sides of a rotor.


Yep, crack a physics book. Friction is independent of surface area. Cooling is not, however, drum brakes also suffer a serious flaw in this regard.


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## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

*Spongey is good ...*

S


f3rg said:


> My wife's bike has Tektro OEM v's on it and they have that sponge feeling you're talking about. You certainly can't judge them all based on that, though. I have Avid Single Digits with FR-5 levers and they have very little travel after I fine tuned them, and they stop my bike like a tree branch in the spokes with 1 finger.
> 
> Rubbing the rim can be an issue on cheap wheels that come out of true often, but I've never had that problem with my Rolf's.


Spongey is good. Spongey means that you have the leverage necessary to apply enough force to stretch the cable or deform the pads. This might sound bad, but it's good since the force is transmitted by tension.

Brakes with inadequate leverage feel "solid" because you cannot move the transmission medium any further or deform the pad ... because you're not strong enough without more leverage. Less force, means less friction. Less friction means less braking.

The exception to this is if you have air in a hydraulic line which readily compresses under very little force. Hence the lever bottoms out without any real force and that's obviously not good.

Don't listen to me. Listen to the late great Sheldon Brown.



Sheldon Brown said:


> With automobile brakes, a nice "hard" pedal feel is a sign that the brakes are in good condition. A soft, "spongy" feel at the brake pedal is a sign of trouble, perhaps air in the hydraulic lines. This is not the case with bicycle brakes. A hard, crisp feel to the brakes on a bicycle may be a sign that the brakes don't have much mechanical advantage. You squeeze them until the brake shoes hit the rim, then they stop. Brakes with a high mechanical advantage will feel "spongy" by comparison, because the large amount of force they deliver to the brake shoes will squash the shoes against the rim, deforming them temporarily under pressure. You can feel this deformation in your fingers. The brakes with the rock-hard feel may seem nice on the work stand or the showroom floor, but when it comes to making the bike actually stop, the spongy set-up will do the job better, with less finger pressure and greater margin for safety in wet conditions.


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## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

BlurredVision said:


> In theory, due to the amount of contact time on any iven area between brake pad and rotor surface, V brakes should heat up slower. Of course they would also cool down slower due to the fact that it's kind of tough to cross drill a rim and there is a huge insulator between the inner surfaces of the rotor aka... a tire/ tube filled with compressed air. Different pad and rim/ rotor materials as well as design will have a major effect on the performance of both.


For any given stopping distance, the amount of heat generated by either discs or Vs will be exactly the same. The difference is you're using the rim as a heat sink with ANY rim brake. Since the tire is directly connected to the rim, significant braking will heat the tire and tube and change the pressure of your tube. If you press this enough the tire can blow off the rim.

This of course, is unlikely to happen to a cross country mountain biker. But apparantly it is a major concern for long, long high speed descents on roads or off road downhill runs. You will NEVER, EVER see a downhill cyclists on Rim Brakes. Not when they can use discs.



> Of course the notable exception is mud but Im guessing if you rode through mud deep enough to cover your discs there'd be stopping issues there too... then again, if the mud is that deep, braking isnt going to be an issue.


Try just a splash of water. That's enough to put a rim brake out of commission, briefly. When you're riding a technical section, just a half second of "no brakes" is enough to put you in the hospital. I know a guy with a knee brace now because his rims were wet and the Vs failed to engage instantly. If you're looking to save money, I would say staying out of the hospital is a good way to do it.

Yes, I readily admit under dry conditions on relatively flat, non technical courses V-brakes and discs perform exactly the same.


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

He he he...this is SOOOO true. But yes, if your frame does not accept discs then going ot to buy a frame that does and then purchase some mechanicals is still an expensive road to take...

In terms of what is a good V brake to sellect...there are MANY variables as one poster has already mentioned, ie...rim design, weight width, hight (should be standaard to some degree) alum quality spoke choice - quality, V pads - size, length, width, siped/ unsiped and direction. The design of the cable route, tention quality etc etc etc etc...I find discs easier mate

BlurredVision, yes essentially the wheel acting as a bigger 26" disc SHOULD provide more power but realistically it does not because discs are actuated by a form of hydrolic piston as you know, that enables FAR more pressure (which equals more stopping power and force, FAR more than any V brake would before the cable could and would snap) and exacting modulation than that of a rim brake whose fade resistance is VERY poor and when the wheel heats up, it also heats up the air, tube and tyre that is like a large insulated trapping the heat causing more problems.



f3rg said:


> Sim2u: my bigger issue with discs is that my frame is an '00 and only accepts v's. Otherwise, I'd probably give them a try.
> 
> What people shouldn't do, though, is go from $10 OEM v's to $200 discs and start comparing the two different types.[/quote]


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Oh...willsmith already beat me to it...kudos mate, nice explanation too. But erm...isnt this like beating a dead horse though, how many times and how many threads on how many forums has this been clap-trapped previous to this incarnation...?


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## slowpoker (Jun 4, 2008)




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## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

Jim311 said:


> Disc:
> 
> Pro: Works good
> Con: Costs money
> ...


Even more so when wet/muddy.

I remember Hope Mini Mono 6" disk brake being more powerful and better modulating than XTRs or Avid Single Digit Ti. rim brakes (oddly, I also endo'd less). Now, Hope Mini Mono Pro is less than 300 grams light. Hope Mono M4s and Formula Oro Puros have been very good for me.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Sim2u said:


> a bigger 26" disc SHOULD provide more power but realistically it does not because discs are actuated by a form of hydrolic piston as you know, that enables FAR more pressure (which equals more stopping power and force, FAR more than any V brake would before the cable could and would snap) and exacting modulation than that of a rim brake


Then why don't cable actuated disk brakes snap their cables? 

I've found that the rim of the wheel and the pad make all the difference with V's. Machined double wall rims make a huuuuge difference. Cheapo V's themselves seem to be just as stiff as the good stuff, just heavier.

Good equipment works better than junky equipment, regardless of its method of operation.

As a big fat guy who loves to go downhill, disk brakes are an obvious choice for me.


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## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

JimC. said:


> in the BRAKES forum, under disc brake FAQ; the whole subject is covered there.


Jim, after ten years of this subject coming up and after writing it all out in the FAQ, this is what it's down to -

:madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman:

Let's not even mention my single-handed goal of correcting the world's incorrect spelling of HYDRAULIC.


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## BlurredVision (Jul 1, 2007)

Sim2u, thats for correcting the analysis of mechanical V brakes to Hydrolic disc that I never made. For the record I was comparing MECHANICAL brakes! Obviously hydrolics are going to produce better stopping power with no mechanical loss, there's no comparison.


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

I'd say that V's are good enough for most MTB riders while discs are essential for extreme riders. 

The lesser maintenance and easier care (pad changing super easy) along with their simplicity make the V the choice for most folk.

If you're riding in wet/muddy conditions, you're definately an extreme biker and you need the discs. 

My next bike will have discs on it for the mere fact that my next bike will be a serious bike for serious usage. 

However, I'm quite happy with my current brakes. 



Thanks to whoever posted this thread...I was going to ask the question myself.


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## SteveUK (Apr 16, 2006)

The belief that disc brakes are high(er) maintenance is absolute nonsense, especially where hydraulics are concerned. It's not unusual, perhaps even typical, over the course of a year for riders to require only one bleed and one pad chain, which, by the way, is considerably more simple with hydros than with any rim brake.

At some point, all the naysayers are going to have to admit that a decent hydraulic brake system is the most appropriate way to brake a mountain bike, given the conditions and environment that it will (should be!!) typically used in.


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Now that the dead horse has been beaten AGAIN and transmogrified into a unicorn...spew forth this subject as black and white.










They do and can snap cables...I have done 2 all in all. Now dont take fleas and turn them into dragons here, I am not saying that cables just go and snap away. My main point was that of RIM brakes RIM - V brakes....NOT cables discs, your trying to compare chalk and cheese here in some way because the forces applied to the both of them are different and you know that, dont you! So should'nt shove any of those red herrings in my face please...he he he.

My other main point was that with a 26" diameter disc so to speak you would think that there is more braking power but in reality there is not...its just a fact, dont believe me then do a comprehensive test against the BEST Vbrake and Best Hydraulic Disc in a similar category say gee..XC, and see what the results would be. I guarantee you discs pull more stopping power if only (and not only) due to the Hydraulic force that can be applied against the rotor. Also, there is LESS play and stretch within a Hydraulic system to my knowledge that is inherent in all and most cable actuated mechanisms.

I do understand what your trying to say though with all respect, so dont take it the wrong way or anything as I do enjoy chatting with you and or having a good debate here and there, just wish we had a nice bottle of red to nag over.



scottzg said:


> Then why don't cable actuated disk brakes snap their cables?
> 
> I've found that the rim of the wheel and the pad make all the difference with V's.  Machined double wall rims make a huuuuge difference. Cheapo V's themselves seem to be just as stiff as the good stuff, just heavier.
> 
> ...


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Im sorry mate, yes your right mechanicals and *Hydraulic* brakes are not the same of course but they ARE comparable in some contexts of course.

BTW...its "*hydraulic*" brake not


> Hydrolic


....:thumbsup: Which is perhaps ironic in some manner because my typos are numerous in number.



BlurredVision said:


> Sim2u, thats for correcting the analysis of mechanical V brakes to Hydrolic disc that I never made. For the record I was comparing MECHANICAL brakes! Obviously hydrolics are going to produce better stopping power with no mechanical loss, there's no comparison.


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## jawndoe (Feb 7, 2008)

Beer Breaks are better than Smoke Breaks! 

My boss needs to give me more breaks at work!

Now Skeletal breaks are the worst...


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## crashtestdummy (Jun 18, 2005)

2ndgen said:


> The lesser maintenance and easier care (pad changing super easy) along with their simplicity make the V the choice for most folk.


WRONG, My disks are much easier to maintain and change pads on then any V brakes I've used ever were.


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## slowpoker (Jun 4, 2008)

jawndoe said:


> Beer Breaks are better than Smoke Breaks!
> 
> My boss needs to give me more breaks at work!
> 
> Now Skeletal breaks are the worst...


Now we got us a real debate that isn't overdone. I agree that beer breaks are better than CIGARETTE smoke breaks.:smilewinkgrin:


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

No no no no no....NO, sorry your wrong here, thats a fact!!!!  But your right about Beer breaks are being better then smoke brakes (insert paradoxial IDK:ciappa: ) yet haveing a nice red is better than both. Beer is for the BBQs mate.



slowpoker said:


> Now we got us a real debate that isn't overdone. I agree that beer breaks are better than CIGARETTE smoke breaks.:smilewinkgrin:


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

crashtestdummy said:


> WRONG, My disks are much easier to maintain and change pads on then any V brakes I've used ever were.


I can adjust my brakes in less than a minute with at most, a Vise Grip.

How long does it take you to adjust your's and how many tools do you need?

Now, do the math...how many people who own MTB's with discs are actually mechanically inclined enough do their own disc brake work?

:idea:


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

I would say that 80% on here with disc brakes are MORE then machanically minded as disc brakes are SOOOO simple to work on, and FAR less finiky than V's. I can set my discs and forget them...litterally!!!! Everytime you chaps with V's take your wheel off, you have to sometimes do some adjustments here and there, yes!? The only time I think about my discs are to clean them after a good ride and just like V's, check the pads every now and then.

But seriously...this is a dead horese waiting for a strapping! Its been DONE to death. I prefere my discs and you like your V's...good for you, harah harah let there be confetti falling from the heavens. TIC...(insert smilie)


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

Sim2u said:


> I would say that 80% on here with disc brakes are MORE then machanically minded as disc brakes are SOOOO simple to work on, and FAR less finiky than V's. I can set my discs and forget them...litterally!!!! Everytime you chaps with V's take your wheel off, you have to sometimes do some adjustments here and there, yes!? The only time I think about my discs are to clean them after a good ride and just like V's, check the pads every now and then.
> 
> But seriously...this is a dead horese waiting for a strapping! Its been DONE to death. I prefere my discs and you like your V's...good for you, harah harah let there be confetti falling from the heavens. TIC...(insert smilie)


Ok, but could you answer this for me?

How long does it take you to adjust your's and how many tools do you need?


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

2ndgen said:


> Ok, but could you answer this for me?
> 
> How long does it take you to adjust your's and how many tools do you need?


hydros- i bend the rotors with my thumbs occasionally if i bend them. Pads require no tools (maybe a butter knife). I have a 35$ bleed kit, but i bleed them maybe once a year, and i do everyone else's. 
Bleeding - 15 minutes
adjust rotors - 1 minute
change pads - 5 minutes.

Mechanicals- i bend the rotors with my thumbs occasionally if i bend them. changing the pads or advancing worn pads requires no tools. I have a 25$ set of cable/housing cutters, but i redo the cables and housings maybe once a year, and i do everyone elses.
Cables and housings- 15 minutes
adjust rotors- 1 minute
change pads- 5 minutes
advance pads- 10 seconds

I've got some juicy 5's that i haven't touched in probably 20 rides.


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *2ndgen*
> _Ok, but could you answer this for me? _
> How long does it take you to adjust your's and how many tools do you need?


If you mean just for adjustment...well, ZERO tools:thumbsup: Mine (and many are) are tooless adjustment brakes. Mine and many Hydraulic brakes are tooless adjustments because they have a kind of auto pad adjustment although some have pad contact adjustments to make on a whim but thats not even needed really, more a gimic and similar to lever adjustment really (although not in reality, but in effect).

Like ScottZG I have a pair of juicies that I have not touched in about a year and to make any adjustments I could do while I am riding, which is indicative of how easy it really is, but how long...well I have to be honest and say that I have never timed it but I would maybe 20, 30 seconds-ish.


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

scottzg said:


> hydros- i bend the rotors with my thumbs occasionally if i bend them. Pads require no tools (maybe a butter knife). I have a 35$ bleed kit, but i bleed them maybe once a year, and i do everyone else's.
> Bleeding - 15 minutes
> adjust rotors - 1 minute
> change pads - 5 minutes.
> ...


Thanks for an _honest_ answer Scott. :thumbsup:


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

> Sim2u said:
> 
> 
> > If you mean just for adjustment...well, ZERO tools:thumbsup:
> ...


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## SteveUK (Apr 16, 2006)

I don't think that I'd call a 2.5mm and an 8mm spanner specialized tools.

Look, bleeding a hydraulic brake is the equivalent to replacing the cables on a rim brake; there's the comparison for you. Do you understand? All of a sudden, five minutes (or less) to bleed a brake doesn't look like a very long time, does it?

"_With V-Brakes, one doesn't have to worry about fluid leaks..._"

With hydraulics, one doesn't have to worry about cable bolts. Makes about as much sense, eh?

"_...pad & rotor contamination with oil..._"

How well do rim brakes work if you get oil or lube on the rim/pads?

"_...loose rotor bolts..._"

Loose brake-arm bolts?

"_...overheating or any other of the specific problems that occur only with disc brake systems._"

Are you saying that it's not possible to overheat the pads on a rim brake?

You're not "proving" anything other than the fact that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

++++++1:thumbsup:



SteveUK said:


> I don't think that I'd call a 2.5mm and an 8mm spanner specialized tools.
> 
> Look, bleeding a hydraulic brake is the equivalent to replacing the cables on a rim brake; there's the comparison for you. Do you understand? All of a sudden, five minutes (or less) to bleed a brake doesn't look like a very long time, does it?
> 
> ...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

2ndgen said:


> > V-Brakes don't *need* to be bled.
> 
> 
> Neither do disc brakes. You only bleed them when you install them (if you have to cut the hoses), just like you adjust cables when you install V-brakes.


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## crashtestdummy (Jun 18, 2005)

2ndgen said:


> I can adjust my brakes in less than a minute with at most, a Vise Grip.
> 
> How long does it take you to adjust your's and how many tools do you need?
> 
> ...


Wow, Vise Grips, you are a mechanic, I just usually use a big rock.

Show me a serious rider that:
1. weighs more than 200#.
2. Actually rides in the mountains
3. Has tried well set up versions of V and disc brakes.
4. Has at least normal intelligence

and still would prefer V brakes over discs.


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## Wheelspeed (Jan 12, 2006)

What's all the talk about bleeding? I haven't needed to bleed my oem 2001 Hayes brakes EVER. And it hangs by its front wheel from a rafter in my garage all the time.


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## aaron04 (May 26, 2008)

To change V brake pads, aren't there several angle adjustments, dont you have to align the pad to the angle of the rims braking surface and you have to adjust the pad to the wheels circumference and slide the pads in and out for distance to the rim? all those adjustments have to be pretty close to get them to wear right. With a disc pad you just slide them in and your done. If on a rare occasion you have to adjust them you only need to loosen 2 screws, squeeze the lever, tighten the screws and your done.
I see V brakes becoming obsolete on mt bikes in the very near future, disc brakes really are so much easier to work with and they really do brake better under pretty much all circumstances. It's inevitable. The last time I was in a bike shop there was only one mt bike with V brakes and it was a pretty large shop. There will be hangers on, I still meet truck drivers that want the 8 track to come back (hey that rhymed!)
I recently bought a new fork for my bike and most of the forks on sale had V brake mounts, seems everyone is trying to get rid of the old fashioned V mount forks. 
Anyway, the arguments will keep happening for a while still and they wont change anyone's mind, only time will so I getting out of this one.


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## SteveUK (Apr 16, 2006)

"_I haven't needed to bleed my oem 2001 Hayes brakes EVER._"

You should consider bleeding them. Air is pulled into the system via the miniscule spaces at the seals and will gradually deteriorate the fluid. For most riders, it's a good idea to flush their fluid every three or four years; for racers, maybe every year. DOT fluid will thicken as it reacts with air and become less effective. Your brakes may work with old fluid, but they'll work considerably better if you replace it with fresh stuff.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Brake fluid also loves water and will absord it rapidly. Eventually your fluid can become contaminated with both water AND air and lead to crappy performance.


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

SteveUK said:


> I don't think that I'd call a 2.5mm and an 8mm spanner specialized tools.
> 
> Look, bleeding a hydraulic brake is the equivalent to replacing the cables on a rim brake; there's the comparison for you. Do you understand? All of a sudden, five minutes (or less) to bleed a brake doesn't look like a very long time, does it?
> 
> ...


Hi Steve.

You should read that article I posted by *MTBR* on Disc Brakes.

It's very insightful on them.


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

aaron04 said:


> To change V brake pads, aren't there several angle adjustments, dont you have to align the pad to the angle of the rims braking surface and you have to adjust the pad to the wheels circumference and slide the pads in and out for distance to the rim? all those adjustments have to be pretty close to get them to wear right. With a disc pad you just slide them in and your done. If on a rare occasion you have to adjust them you only need to loosen 2 screws, squeeze the lever, tighten the screws and your done.
> I see V brakes becoming obsolete on mt bikes in the very near future, disc brakes really are so much easier to work with and they really do brake better under pretty much all circumstances. It's inevitable. The last time I was in a bike shop there was only one mt bike with V brakes and it was a pretty large shop. There will be hangers on, I still meet truck drivers that want the 8 track to come back (hey that rhymed!)
> I recently bought a new fork for my bike and most of the forks on sale had V brake mounts, seems everyone is trying to get rid of the old fashioned V mount forks.
> Anyway, the arguments will keep happening for a while still and they wont change anyone's mind, only time will so I getting out of this one.


LOL!

I agree with you 100% Aaron.


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## SteveUK (Apr 16, 2006)

"_You should read that article I posted by MTBR on Disc Brakes. _"

I will if you link me to it...


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

2ndgen said:


> Hi Steve.
> 
> You should read that article I posted by *MTBR* on Disc Brakes.
> 
> It's very insightful on them.


why read an article when 95% of the people on mtbr have owned both types of brakes. Have you?

V-brakes take just as long to set up as hydros, go through pads much more frequently, require more maintenance than cable disks or hydros, have serious fade issues. Thay're light and cheap though.

I bleed my brakes yearly because i'm 230lbs and i ride OFF ROAD (not around town) 3x a week.


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm smart enough to know that I can trust the "*experts*" on this one...MTBR.

I agree with their article 100%.

And like I said, V Brakes require less maintenance and have less potential areas that can fail. For most riding, V Brakes are fine. But for extreme MTBing, discs are essential.

I think MTBR put it best when they wrote the following:

"*Do I need disc brakes*?

No, not unless you have issues with rim brakes in general or your rim brakes in particular.

Some people are quite happy with their rim brakes and others find that because of their riding environment (terrain and conditions) that rim brakes don't do the required job.

You will find that as your terrain gets steeper and your conditions get wetter, disc brakes become more useful.

Also some of us live in fairly flat, dry areas and we don't actually need disc brakes all the time but we want them for the times we do travel to steeper and wetter areas.

Just don't get caught up in it - unless you want to, or need to of course. If you're a heavy rider (200 pounds or more) you will certainly benefit."

http://www.mtbr.com/discbrakesfaqcrx.aspx#general

:thumbsup:


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

scottzg said:


> why read an article when 95% of the people on mtbr have owned both types of brakes. Have you?


Why read an article written by bicycling "professionals"?



Because they know more than biking "enthusiasts".

:idea:

And you're a prime example of what I said...you're a MTB extremist (hardcore dedicated rider with a bike that most likely costs more than most people's monthly mortgage payment)...for you, discs are essential, right?


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

SteveUK said:


> "_You should read that article I posted by MTBR on Disc Brakes. _"
> 
> I will if you link me to it...


*Hey Steve, I had it listed on one of my previous posts, but here it is again:

http://www.mtbr.com/discbrakesfaqcrx.aspx#general

It lists all of the pros/cons of discs and what is required of them. 
It pretty much agrees with everything listed here by pro-disc brakers,
but it also lists somethings that are left out here. 
*


Also, here's another great article from an expert (*that I totally agree with*) that goes into 
the special requirements for maintaining Disc Brakes that are not necessary for V-Brakes:

Mountain Bike Maintenance
Brake and Rotor Cleaning

Rotor Cleaning

The most important tool for cleaning rotors is Isopropyl Alcohol (Isopropanol or Rubbing Alcohol are other names for the same thing). I buy it in a 500ml bottle and transfer it into a small 'dropper' bottle which lives in my tool box.

** Isopropyl Alcohol is highly flammable and is also harmful to your health **

From Rutgers University Center of Alcohol Studies:

Isopropanol, common rubbing alcohol, is also quite toxic. Small amounts, as little as several ounces, can cause permanent damage to the visual system, and eight ounces is usually lethal. Some alcoholics may consume methanol or isopropyl alcohol, intentionally or unknowingly, with potentially lethal consequences.

Whatever containers you use, store them carefully and keep them well away from children and idiots.

Drip the IsA all around the rotor face&#8230;

I use my thumb to spread it about, concentrating on any areas where dirt or contaminates may have built up*. Use a clean, thick cloth to wipe away the fluid, carefully 'polishing' it until the surface of the rotor is clean and free from smears. Repeat this process on the flip-side and then return to the first side for a final wipe.

*If you're finding baked on, black grime on your rotor, it's possible that there is some brake pad contamination from hydraulic fluid. If there is any kind of oil contaminating your pads; WD40, DOT, mineral, then it's highly likely that you'll be able to see black smudges, or streaks, on your rotors. Also check the pads to see if they have a 'wet' feel to them. Basically, any oils on the pad/rotor will combine with the dust produced from the pads under braking to create a paste, which then gets deposited onto the rotor or gunks up the pads, or both (more likely). This 'paste' is now your braking surface, hence the drastic drop in performance, possibly accompanied by unusual squeaking.

A spill of oil/fluid can usually be washed off with IsA if you catch it straight away. Once you've used the brakes with a contaminated pad, as far as I'm concerned the pads are finished and should be replaced. However, if you do a search around the Brake Time forum, you'll find examples of baking/heating/burning the pads to get the oil out.

Oil/fluid on the rotors can just be wiped away with a cloth and some IsA. If it has got to the 'black streak' stage, you can just scrape the marks off with your fingernail, before cleaning it up with the IsA.

Oil/fluid on the rear of the pads may indicate failure of the piston seals or loose bolts/fittings on the caliper. Check all your fittings, wipe the inside of the caliper clean with tissue and cotton buds to get around the pistons, then make sure the rear of each pad is properly cleaned and dried, refit, and check them again after a bit of riding. More oil? Time to investigate a seal change.

It is possible to freshen up your brake pads using a fine-grade sandpaper, I find 180 works well. Remove the pads from the calliper as per the manufacturers' instructions. Put the sandpaper on a flat surface and, using a circular or figure eight motion sand each pad until the surface is clean and even. After doing this your pads will require bedding in again.

Bedding in is the process whereby the surfaces of the pads and rotor wear away a little until the profiles of each match each other. As the pads are the 'softer' of the two materials, their surfaces will be carved out to match the profile of the rotor as it rotates, although some microscopic changes will also occur on the rotor surfaces. Once they have bedding into the rotor, the effectiveness of the pads is at its best. Here's my method for bedding my brakes in&#8230;

Refit the pads head outside with a bottle or pint glass of fresh, clean tap water. Get up a head of steam and brake hard. Pour water liberally over the caliper. Pedal off again, this time with the brake applied lightly. As you pedal you're going to feel the pads bedding in to the rotor. Keep going, pulling the brake gradually harder as you have to pedal harder. Do this for 20-30m and then pour water of the caliper again. Repeat a mix of hard stops, water; brake/pedal, water until your brakes are how you like them. I can get both of my brakes bedded in in under 10mins using this method. They'll improve further after a little trail time, but at least you'll have decent braking to begin with.

It's worthwhile keeping an eye on the interior of the disc brake caliper. It may not be such an issue for cable actuated brakes, but the piston seals on hydraulic brakes will be affected, over time, by the ingress of dirt and brakes dust, especially if you ride often in the wet. You may not even need to remove the caliper, but with the pads out of the way, take a cotton tip around the interior of the caliper, paying special attention to the exposed surface of the piston and the point where the piston and caliper body 'meet'. A little (very small amount) of brake fluid (DOT or mineral as appropriate) can be used to soften any built up crud. If you find yourself needing to push pistons back fully into the caliper (resetting pads?) it is advisable to wipe the piston first. Clean seals will last way longer than gritty ones and the lever feel of a well maintained brake will always be superior to that of one which is not cared for.

http://steveukmtb.wordpress.com/basic-cleaning-and-maintenance-guide/brake-and-rotor-cleaning/


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

2ndgen said:


> Ok, but could you answer this for me?
> 
> How long does it take you to adjust your's and how many tools do you need?


The last time I adjusted my hydros was when I installed them. It took a hearty squeeze and a 5mm allen wrench. Way easier than toeing in v-brakes and making sure they hit the rim right.

Wheel on/off? No problem the rotor is still in the same place. Unlike a rim which always seems to "drift" a little.

Pad change? Hayes brakes have these nifty spring loaded clips on the pads. Remove wheel, remove and replace pad by popping in a fresh pair. No tools save for a flathead screwdriver to pry the old pads apart and push the pistons into the caliper.

Overall I'd say hydraulic brakes need far less mainteance than any v-brake ever did. Why do you think motorcycles and cars switched away from cable operated brakes ages ago?


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## SteveUK (Apr 16, 2006)

I'd already read that. You said the article that _you_ posted, so I thought it was something different.


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## aaron04 (May 26, 2008)

2ndgen said:


> *Hey Steve, I had it listed on one of my previous posts, but here it is again:
> 
> http://www.mtbr.com/discbrakesfaqcrx.aspx#general
> 
> ...


Holy cat cheese! You really dont like disc brakes! I couldn't disagree more about V's being easier than discs to set up. Putting disc brakes on my bike was one of the most simple, self explanatory things I have ever done! It took about 15 minutes to put on the front and the rear and there really isn't any way it could be done wrong, I think a five year old could do it, heck, my wife could probably do it! like I said before, the only adjustments you need to do is before you tighten down the caliper simply squeeze the lever, that's it! How could that be harder and more complicated than setting up V brakes? I think whomever wrote that article didnt have much experience with discs or was using disc brakes from a long ago era when they weren't as simple and reliable as they are now. The second article made disc brakes look like they need constant attention and maintenance, and the quote about alcohol being a terrible and dangerous chemical pushed it just a little to far! Oh my God! I have to use ALCOHOL to clean my brakes! EEECKKKK! I better wear chemical resistant gloves when I'm handling such a caustic chemical!
OK, Now I'm really done! Later


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

> Deme Moore said:
> 
> 
> > The last time I adjusted my hydros was when I installed them. It took a hearty squeeze and a 5mm allen wrench. Way easier than toeing in v-brakes and making sure they hit the rim right.
> ...


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## Polar Bear (Mar 4, 2008)

*Disc brakes don't come easy*

While it may be true that v-brakes are declining in popularity, most of the riders I see on the trail are still riding v's.

I would probably have already switched to discs if all I had to buy was the rotors, calipers, cables, and levers. However, of the three bikes I own, one bike has no mounts for discs, another has the 22 mm obsolete mount for discs, and the third I have to get a special adapter for. So, first I have to buy a new frame.

None of my wheelsets are disc compatible so I have to get a new wheelset (at least for the bike that I can get the adapter for). Problem is, I can't see spending $800 to replace my mavic crossmax wheels (v-brake specific) with crossmax disc specific wheels. I have kids and they take all my money.

Then, Even if I did get a new frame that I would want ($1200-2000) and new wheels ($800), Shimano xt brakes ($500 I guess) plus installation ($100 I guess), I might as well buy a new bike. Problem is, I have a full suspension bike that I LOVE and fits me amazing and is less than 25 lbs. A brand new 25 lbs full sus bike would run me about $4000 I guess. Like I said, I got kids and my wallet is currently empty.

So, I'll ride my three bikes with V's and enjoy them and maybe I'll win the lottery and get a new wicked disc ride. You gotta be in it to win it.


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## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

EBC non-chlorinated will spruce up contaminated brake systems in a jiffy. Yes, I know it's not recommended. Yes, I know that many car disc brake cleaners leave residues that only boil off at high temperatures. If the brakes stop working, EBC non-chlorinated DOES THE JOB!!!

For Polar Bear ... I don't think anyone is trying to convince you to use disc brakes. However, if it is something you want to try, there is no law that says the brake on the fork has to match the brake on the frame. In fact, since the rear brake is just a "dragger" anyway switching just the front to disc may give you the best of both worlds.



sim2u said:


> Oh...willsmith already beat me to it...kudos mate, nice explanation too. But erm...isnt this like beating a dead horse though, how many times and how many threads on how many forums has this been clap-trapped previous to this incarnation...?


Myths and misconceptions are like weeds. They keep popping up and you have to keep spraying them. If the horse gets up and walks past you ... it's not dead. It's a zombie. Time for stakes and holy water!!!



sim2u said:


> My other main point was that with a 26" diameter disc so to speak you would think that there is more braking power but in reality there is not...its just a fact, dont believe me then do a comprehensive test against the BEST Vbrake and Best Hydraulic Disc in a similar category say gee..XC, and see what the results would be.


The reason that you don't get as much "grab" out of the "26 inch rotor" is that the pad material is a rubber composite. There is just less friction there. If you used a sintered metallic pad on an aluminum rim, you would wear through it very rapidly.



sim2u said:


> I guarantee you discs pull more stopping power if only (and not only) due to the Hydraulic force that can be applied against the rotor. Also, there is LESS play and stretch within a Hydraulic system to my knowledge that is inherent in all and most cable actuated mechanisms.


Hydraulics are a mechanically simple way to achieve mechanical advantage. However, realize that increasing the leverage of the system decreases the travel in the pads. There is only so much advantage you can add to the system before the lever simply sinks to the bar without the pads contacting rotor. Try using cantilever levers (which have more leverage than V/disc levers) with V-brakes and you'll see that hydro isn't a "miracle system".

BTW, don't be afraid of that "spongey" feel (unless you have air in your hydro line). The fact that you can keep pulling the lever means you have enough force to deform either the pad or the pressure transmission medium (stretching cables, compressing fluid). In a cable, force is transmitted via tension and the amount the cable stretches isn't relevant. So if you can't stretch the cable, that's not good. It means you don't have enough leverage.


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

aaron04 said:


> Holy cat cheese! You really dont like disc brakes! I couldn't disagree more about V's being easier than discs to set up. Putting disc brakes on my bike was one of the most simple, self explanatory things I have ever done! It took about 15 minutes to put on the front and the rear and there really isn't any way it could be done wrong, I think a five year old could do it, heck, my wife could probably do it! like I said before, the only adjustments you need to do is before you tighten down the caliper simply squeeze the lever, that's it! How could that be harder and more complicated than setting up V brakes?
> 
> I think whomever wrote that article didnt have much experience with discs or was using disc brakes from a long ago era when they weren't as simple and reliable as they are now.
> 
> ...


Well, that 2nd article was by SteveUK on his own link on MTB Maintenance. 
I think it's a great article.

The first was by MTBR (definitely the experts here being able to speak with a certain authority on the matter).


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

Polar Bear said:


> While it may be true that v-brakes are declining in popularity, most of the riders I see on the trail are still riding v's.
> 
> I would probably have already switched to discs if all I had to buy was the rotors, calipers, cables, and levers. However, of the three bikes I own, one bike has no mounts for discs, another has the 22 mm obsolete mount for discs, and the third I have to get a special adapter for. So, first I have to buy a new frame.
> 
> ...


That's the basic premise here. V's are for most owners of MTB's and meet their basic needs fine while Discs are for the hardcore riders. Of course, with all of the benefits of Discs, V's will be exiting the scene, but it'll probably be a while.

As long as V's fullfill the needs of the masses, are cheaper and don't require as much maintenance as discs do, they'll be around.


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## aaron04 (May 26, 2008)

"I think you're best to answer this...which system can be tuned-up quicker? Less tools? Less anything else (specialized cleaning solutions, etc...)? On a trail? "
That's easy! Disc brakes! All you need is an allen wrench, if anything!


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## SteveUK (Apr 16, 2006)

"_The second article made disc brakes look like they need constant attention and maintenance, and the quote about alcohol being a terrible and dangerous chemical pushed it just a little to far! Oh my God! I have to use ALCOHOL to clean my brakes! EEECKKKK! I better wear chemical resistant gloves when I'm handling such a caustic chemical!_"

I don't think that my article suggests that disc systems require a lot of maintenance, it just describes what to look for and how maintenance can be carried out. I don;t say, for example, that rotors should be cleaned daily, or even after every ride, I just describe a suitable way to get them clean if one _needs_ to. No 'working' parts on a mountain bike are maintenance free, at least not if you want them to work well.

I also think that it would have been highly irresponsible of me to advise the use of Isopropyl Alcohol to people without also informing them of the associated risks. To some, and young folk in particular, the word alcohol makes their eyes light up as they think of cold beers and what-have-you. Kids will invariably ask "can I drink it!" and they're more likely to trust me when I say no if I explain exactly why they can't. The fact is, Isopropyl can cause serious harm if you drink it, even when it's diluted. You think that I shouldn't be telling folk to keep it clear of their youngsters?


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## aaron04 (May 26, 2008)

Well, that 2nd article was by SteveUK on his own link on MTB Maintenance. 
I think it's a great article. 

The first was by MTBR (definitely the experts here being able to speak with a certain authority on the matter).
No offence to them or you, but they have way exaggerated the maintenance schedule for disc brakes or they are stating the very worst case scenario, how old are the articles? I didnt notice what year and model brakes they are talking about.
I think if you ask the average disc brake user he will tell you that there is very little if any maintenance with a disc brake, other than the EXTREMELY easy task of replacing the pads ( which takes about 60 seconds and no tools) and bleeding them every year or two (which is easier than changing a cable in V brakes) you dont have to do anything.
They are almost maintenance free. Anyway! This time I mean it, I am really done! Later!


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

2ndgen said:


> > How long have you been on those brakes?
> >
> > I guess that's important if someone has to actually take their wheel off a lot.
> >
> ...


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Do we really need a 4 day long 5 page long discussion on V brakes versus Disc brakes in the General Discussion forum when clearly we have brake forum for this?:madman:  What forum should I place my "what tire and wheel setup is best"?
http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=51

http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=60


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

> aaron04 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, that 2nd article was by SteveUK on his own link on MTB Maintenance.
> ...


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

> Deme Moore said:
> 
> 
> > 2ndgen said:
> ...


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Do we really need a 4 day long 4 page long discussion on V brakes versus Disc brakes in the General Discussion forum when clearly we have brake forum for this?:madman:  What forum should I place my "what tire and wheel setup is best"?
> https://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=51
> 
> https://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=60


*A. *Blame the OPster for placing it in the wrong forum.

*B. *Yes, we really need updated information for *beginners* such as myself who would *benefit from getting the "latest" information* and not having to rely on a thread from 6 months ago or a year ago or longer.

:thumbsup:

Oh and by the way, unless someone has you like this with a gun to your head forcing you to click and to read the posts, 
you don't "have to" be here...every time you see a post you already read, don't, I repeat, don't click on it! LOL :


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## Steve from JH (Dec 30, 2003)

*Wheels knocked out of true*

Maybe somebody has mentioned this advantage of discs in this thread and I missed it.

If you knock your rims badly out of true but not bad enough to rub the frame, it will mess up the performance of your V brakes, but not your discs.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Try this forum... http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=55

Or this forum....http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=51

Or this thread that was relocated by the moderators from the *General Discussion* forum to the *Site Feedback* forum. Imagine that, we have certain forums for certain topics being discussed and apparently some of these topics that have their own forum are not suppose to be discussed in the quote; General Discussion forum.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=407911


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Imagine that, we have certain forums for certain topics being discussed and apparently some of these topics that have their own forum are not suppose to be discussed in the quote; General Discussion forum.
> 
> https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=407911


*LOL! *


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## daleksic (Aug 26, 2007)

Not to disrupt this heated discussion here, but I installed my BB7 AVIDs today and had nothing but troubles all day long. What a piece of S..T these are so far. Right when I got everything dialed in I go for a ride and everything is crap again. I have to use my whole strength to get the bike to stop. I can't even get the rear brake to lock up with my whole weight shifted forward. I'm pulling so hard I'm afraid I'm going to rip the darn lever off. Then the front; when I brake hard the whole front end starts to shake and rattle. I am so frustrated with this darn thing.

Tomorrow its going to the bike shop so they can look at it. 

Did i mention the noise. Sounds like a turkey is fighting with a chalk-board. I readjusted it a half a dozen times so far, from scratch and nothing. I sanded the pads, maybe I'll get some new Koolstop pads tomorrow if they have it in stock, maybe that is going to work better.

I'll keep you updated on what they are gonna do....

So far +1 for V's


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## jawndoe (Feb 7, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> What forum should I place my "what tire and wheel setup is best"?


NorCal

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=426268

My Wheels kick ass!

:thumbsup:


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

daleksic said:


> Not to disrupt this heated discussion here, but I installed my BB7 AVIDs today and had nothing but troubles all day long. What a piece of S..T these are so far. Right when I got everything dialed in I go for a ride and everything is crap again. I have to use my whole strength to get the bike to stop. I can't even get the rear brake to lock up with my whole weight shifted forward. I'm pulling so hard I'm afraid I'm going to rip the darn lever off. Then the front; when I brake hard the whole front end starts to shake and rattle. I am so frustrated with this darn thing.
> 
> Tomorrow its going to the bike shop so they can look at it.
> 
> ...


yup, avid pads take forever to bed in. It comes up every week. Put 50 miles on them and report back.

I'll give you 40$ for your crappy bb7s.


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Ok...hang on, thats not the basic premise here and you should now that. You have changed it from "Disc brakes Vs V Brakes" to that of "Who PREFERS Disc brakes or V brakes", these are 2 very different concepts really.

I have NO problem with any chap who wishes to use a V brake and power to him - not literally though; :thumbsup: Now discs can be for hard core riders however, what is a hrd core rider...? There are many extensions to that idea there, such as the hard core XC-er or AM rider etc etc, idk discs are for anybody who wishes a more reliable tool for a wider riding terrain because not all live is flat areas. My best mate lives in Ohio and its pretty flat I guess, he has a XCountry rig with discs because they also perform better in summer weather than his older Vs.

Oh yeah...Im beating that dead horse yeah. Now, somebody get me the bloody stakes and holy water cause the bugger does not want to stay down.



2ndgen said:


> That's the basic premise here. V's are for most owners of MTB's and meet their basic needs fine while Discs are for the hardcore riders. Of course, with all of the benefits of Discs, V's will be exiting the scene, but it'll probably be a while.
> 
> As long as V's fullfill the needs of the masses, are cheaper and don't require as much maintenance as discs do, they'll be around.


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

+1 yep...or 10 really good long down hill rips. But pads and rotors will and can change that though.



scottzg said:


> yup, avid pads take forever to bed in. It comes up every week. Put 50 miles on them and report back.
> 
> I'll give you 40$ for your crappy bb7s.


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## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

scottzg said:


> yup, avid pads take forever to bed in. It comes up every week. Put 50 miles on them and report back.
> 
> I'll give you 40$ for your crappy bb7s.


Mine bed in fairly quickly, but ... I'm 280#. Daleksic, if you know of a big hill, or a parking garage, you might want to go down in while clamping the brakes and pedalling. This will help get the brakes to the point where they're grabbing right.

Mine BB7s are setup so one finger will do it. Now, there is a caveat here. Your levers may have ... lower leverage. A Cheap pair of Avid SD7 levers ($25) will allow you to select the right balance of leverage vs. travel.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> Mine bed in fairly quickly, but ... I'm 280#. Daleksic, if you know of a big hill, or a parking garage, you might want to go down in while clamping the brakes and pedalling. This will help get the brakes to the point where they're grabbing right.


dalesic, on second thought, i suggest you lend your bike to wiltsmith_nwi.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Hardtails work fine.
26" wheels work fine.
Cantilever brakes work fine.
6 speeds works fine.
Flat bars work fine.
Excessive high top tubes work fine.
Loose-ball bottom brackets work fine.
Threaded steerers work fine.
Thumbies work fine.

The list goes on and on, but there are huge benefits to disc brakes, and you don't have to be an "extreme" rider to benefit, but there seem to be lots of people that would like to try and keep it that way.


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

Jayem said:


> The list goes on and on, but there are huge benefits to disc brakes, and you don't have to be an "extreme" rider to benefit, but there seem to be lots of people that would like to try and keep it that way.


There are some people (most?) who will never push a bike to that point where discs make a significant difference or where a set of V's won't be equal in performance.

With that line of thought, everybody should be riding $7,000. MTB's "just" because they are the best and if their not, it's because their woefully misinformed or ostriches with their heads in the sand!

Is Carbon better than Aluminum or Steel? If so, does that mean that everybody who's "not" riding Carbon frame, forks, cranks, handlebars, seat posts "not" interested in having the best despite it's obvious superiority? 
___________________________________________________________________________________________

Again: What percentage of MTB owners are hardcore MTB'rs VS people who just ride casually?

That's a very relevant question.

The best way to gauge that is to see how many MTB's are sold are hardcore bikes and how many are not meant to be really taken to extreme trails.

I'd bet that casual bikes outsell hardcore bikes by an overwhelming majority.

Is there anyone who has any idea of how many casual MTB's are sold as compared to more serious MTB's (say, anything over the entry level mark of about $400.?


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## brianthebiker (Nov 1, 2005)

Jim311 said:


> Disc:
> 
> Pro: Works good
> Con: Costs money
> ...


If only the world was that black and white. I would much rather have mediocre V brakes than poor disc brakes. And believe me, there are A LOT of bad disc brakes out there.


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

I've noticed something...the term "good disc brakes" used in some posts here. 

As if, their not all the "end all/be all" of brakes. 

Are there discs that don't offer performance as good as the best V-Brakes? 

And I think that this is a good time to list and updated pro/cons with all the information put up so far.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

2ndgen said:


> There are some people (most?) who will never push a bike to that point where discs make a significant difference or where a set of V's won't be equal in performance.
> 
> With that line of thought, everybody should be riding $7,000. MTB's "just" because they are the best and if their not, it's because their woefully misinformed or ostriches with their heads in the sand!
> 
> ...


Well Carbon is lighter but it also breaks easier than the other two materials. And because of this Carbon is mainly kept to XC race bikes where weight is of the utmost importance. And the bikes are meant for XC trails and not considered an "All Mountain" trail bike, which is the majority in today's market place. There will always be a market for carbon frames for XC racing and those obsessed with weight. Carbon also flexes more than Aluminum and Chromalloy. Which is not what you want in a hard core trail bike. Any suspension frame that is made from Carbon never receives more than 4.5" of travel as any more would result in frame failure. Carbon because of its flex can give a smoother less vibrating ride in a hard tail frame but once again can not take the abuse that an Aluminum or Chromalloy frame can. Chromalloy is not used as much these days due to Aluminums superior weight to strength ratio. Both are great materials but aluminum can be almost as strong but much lighter so aluminum is the preferred material in most of today's bikes. Carbon is also used in certain parts such as handlebars, stems, seat posts and is sometimes incorporated into parts of forks and derailleur's due to its lightweight and bling factor.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

2ndgen said:


> There are some people (most?) who will never push a bike to that point where discs make a significant difference or where a set of V's won't be equal in performance.
> 
> With that line of thought, everybody should be riding $7,000. MTB's "just" because they are the best and if their not, it's because their woefully misinformed or ostriches with their heads in the sand!
> 
> ...


How many newbies go over the handlebars because their brake control sucks while going downhill? So how many people are turned off from the sport because it's "too easy to crash" or because they had a bad experience? Probably a signficant number. The control that disc brakes afford can help any and everyone. You're dead wrong that disc brakes do not offer increased control to any rider that uses them. Sure, some riders utilize them more and because they are more capable they're able to ride faster, harder, whatever. Just think about scared-newbie rider comming up on their first semi-steep downhill. Discs or Vs? Able to feather the brakes and retain control or just lock up the rear and skid down (and possibly lock the front and endo)??

Last time I checked, you don't have to spend $7000 to get a bike with discs.

This kind of goes back to the entire point of disc brakes and why they've gained in popularity so much. They have much better modulation and ability to control the speed of the bike. You don't have to be an extreme rider to take advantage of this. They have a far greater ability to deal with adverse conditions and keep working, which could mean a thunderstorm, mud, or just a couple creek crossings, and you don't have to be an extreme rider to take advantage of this. If you dent a rim for whatever reason, like a crash, unplanned impact on a rock, or you let the spokes get loose so the rim bent, you can keep riding because the disc brake will keep going. You don't have to be an extreme rider to take advantage of this. Most disc brakes have a FAR greater pad life than a comperable rim brake, except avid mechs in my experience (wonder if this is also true for avid rim brakes though?). I ride a lot and I'd have to change my V brake pads far more often, and even though a less "extreme" rider may not have to change their V pads so often, they'll have to change their disc pads even less often, and they don't have to be extreme riders to take advantage of this.

There are more benefits, but that's the whole point, disc brakes are far superior to Vs, and while there are some areas like weight and price that may shy some away, otherwise they are superior in every other way and even non "extreme" riders benefit from them.

BTW, I'm not saying that a $350 bike should have disc brakes, because at that pricepoint they'd be total crap, probably mechanical with poor bearings for the pivot arm, pad adjusters would fall apart (like my avids!), and so on. Just like you don't find a marzocchi marathon or reba race on a $350 bike, so it is going to have something far less expensive, and disc brakes may not be possible given the contraints of the cost of the bike. That's fine, but once again, if you can afford them or have some money to spend, they are a wonderfull upgrade and they have huge benefits, even to non "hardcore" riders.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

2ndgen said:


> I've noticed something...the term "good disc brakes" used in some posts here.
> 
> As if, their not all the "end all/be all" of brakes.
> 
> ...


I think we will never come to a list that we all agree on. This is like findind horse zombies... you can still beat them all over again, they seem to rise, but they will never get you anywhere.

A good disc will have better performance than a good Vbrake. A good disc will definitely be better than a bad V. Most probably a good V will be better than a bad disc. I don't know if I could go that far as to say that a bad disc can be better than a bad V. This is what I think, and I think anybody can choose their desired system based on what they think.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Jayem said:


> How many newbies go over the handlebars because their brake control sucks while going downhill? So how many people are turned off from the sport because it's "too easy to crash" or because they had a bad experience? Probably a signficant number. The control that disc brakes afford can help any and everyone. You're dead wrong that disc brakes do not offer increased control to any rider that uses them. Sure, some riders utilize them more and because they are more capable they're able to ride faster, harder, whatever. Just think about scared-newbie rider comming up on their first semi-steep downhill. Discs or Vs? Able to feather the brakes and retain control or just lock up the rear and skid down (and possibly lock the front and endo)??
> 
> Last time I checked, you don't have to spend $7000 to get a bike with discs.
> 
> ...


give up. he's right and he doesn't have anything better to do than argue on the internet.


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

+1

I think we have all given him reason and sage information that is empirical in both nature and real world assumptions and I know that some on here are very experienced riders or industry people...YET, he does not seem to have an understanding of the information being imparted while offering less than experienced and contrasting debates. I dont think he is arguing at all and he is entitled to his opinion of course and because it is HIS opinion he is not really incorrect...but that does not mean he is right, because clearly he is not.

On that note...I do not think there is anything more I can add that I or others have not already, so I will say ta ta to this thread...again, it is like trying to beat a dead horse here with another dead horse.:skep:



scottzg said:


> give up. he's right and he doesn't have anything better to do than argue on the internet.


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## aaron04 (May 26, 2008)

I cant believe this thread is still going on! It's like an argument on the death penalty!
someone clearly does not want disc brakes and wants to talk everyone else out of using them.
I think the argument is easily settled, would you rather have your wife, husband or child riding down a long, steep hill with a 1000 foot cliff at the bottom using V brakes or disc brakes? Simple, Disc brakes.
I would much rather have my loved ones using the superior stopping power of disc brakes regardless of the type of riding I'm doing, it's common sense! I dont care how much they cost! 
But if guys like 2ndgen want to use V's let him. 
I'm not coming back to this thread, it's starting to hurt.


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## cassava (Sep 14, 2011)

I'm sorry for rising up again the old thread. I have an opinion about V brakes.

I use V on my bike. One day at the trail when I ran over the long way down of the track suddenly my V lost its ability. It couldn't hold my bike wheels and when I came down and checked it I saw the pad was melted.


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## dead_dog_canyon (Sep 8, 2010)

cassava said:


> I have an opinion about V brakes.
> 
> I saw the pad was melted.


So..... What is your opinion?

I ride V brakes and never melted a pad..... 
Maybe you should stop once in a while and squirt water or piss on em'. Works.....

OT:
The only brake over heating I've ever had was the front disc's on my 4x4 truck on a wicked steep and long down hill. I had to 'run it out' at the bottom.

If anybody cares it was a Toyota. I put 250k miles on that truck and sold to my brother. It now has close to 350k. It still has the ORIGINAL timing chain!!!! Good truck - I miss the damn thing but have 3 kids now....


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## cassava (Sep 14, 2011)

^
Oops..I haven't made any opinion or statement yet. 

I used the the Shimano non-series V pads.The descend part is very very long way down. The offroad session is about 2km plus 15km on road to the nearest town. 

The descended road is quite easy to ride but the traffic that made me to pull the brake all the time.

That's not because Shimano made a low quality pads it's just been half worn out and then I pushed it again to its limit.

that's just what I want to say.


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## mkpthelaw (Sep 15, 2012)

I went from hydralic discs to v-brakes and v's are great. You have to align them right and I like them better than discs.


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## arkon11 (Jul 26, 2009)

Dead Canyon, if the truck is still in awesome running condition (I have a subaru with almost 250k, so I get the high millage thing), I reallllly recommend changing the timing belt. It might be a little expensive up front, but your truck will be completely ****ed if that thing breaks.


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## db_8 (Sep 10, 2012)

i have both... disc in front, v-brake in the back. the xtr-v in the back is awesome with the kool-stop pads! (ditched the shimano pads from hell) don't see much difference on the stopping power, both could easily send me OTB if they were on the fork. though i saw alot of complain about the xtr-v for the front squealing/rubbing so i'm glad this was on the back. i think i have a low-end (if not the lowest) hydro shimano disc in front and i'm amazed at the stopping power not to mention it looks awesome. the xtr-v brake also looks awesome in a techie, funky and unique way. don't think i'll be changing either anytime soon


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## Pollution Warrior (Apr 3, 2010)

I know this is an ancient thread, but this may be useful for someone. I built a new bike yesterday for a friend with V brakes. It has Avid SD7 brakes and Avid FR7 adjustable levers. The rims are Alex DH19. The hex head adjustment screws on the SD7 are sweet and well worth the premium price. The FR7 levers rock. I got the wheels very true, set the pads close, and adjusted the FR7 screws in all the way. The results were quite impressive. The feel is very nice with very good modulation. Tons of power. Unless you ride in muddy conditions a lot I would highly recommend this setup as an alternative to discs.


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## Dark Angel (Jun 4, 2013)

I am running at my HT a pair of XTR Vs of 2008 (BR970) and i am also running Formula R1 at my FS. Honestly in training days and for everyday use i prefer (for braking) the HT wit the XTRs than my FS with Formula R1... 

I run the Vs with XTR levers and i have made by my self wheels with mavic 717 rim and XTR hubs with dt swiss nibs and they are working very nice.

I am satisfy with my 16yrs old frame and i don't care if i am running with Vs.
If you maintain them properly they will always work perfectly.

Speaking of i am also waiting a pair of Kool-Stop V-Brake Pads.


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## bigfruits (Mar 21, 2011)

is it ok to bump an old thread if someone else did it first?

i was a disc brake hold out for too long. smooth one finger braking (can only vouch for XT) and extra control is well worth the added weight. 

i actually ride faster because i slow down later on tight turns and because of the extra confidence the disc brakes give me.


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

I'm perfectly content to use V brakes, but I've pretty much given up on them due to limited frame availability.


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## Dark Angel (Jun 4, 2013)

yeah it's a pity that you can't find neither frames or forks for V Brakes.

After i lost my RST Mozo Pro i tried to find some good forks for V Brake and i only found a Rock Sox XC 28 / 30 lame.... And the only one decent was a Magura TS6 and iam happy this one! And i will have for training days and for everyday use the V Brakes for a very long time in the future. I will stop using them when i won't find any pads for them.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

Dark Angel said:


> yeah it's a pity that you can't find neither frames or forks for V Brakes.


 Add rims.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Dark Angel said:


> I am running at my HT a pair of XTR Vs of 2008 (BR970) and i am also running Formula R1 at my FS. Honestly in training days and for everyday use i prefer (for braking) the HT wit the XTRs than my FS with Formula R1...


if the r1 is the first generation that makes total sense. those brakes kinda stunk and had lots of issues.



Dark Angel said:


> If you maintain them properly they will always work perfectly.


perfectly? in ideal conditions and/or mild bikepath/xc usage, perhaps.

perfectly as long as there is not a lot of downhill where constant modulation is needed. then they overheat, fade horribly, and melt the pads very quickly. and as long as it's not really soupy mud, then they don't work so well and can damage the braking surface. and in thick mud they encourage mud buildup at the wheel, don't work so well, and can damage the braking surface. and as long as it's not really sandy, then braking fades and the pads and rims get eaten up pretty quick. or if you break a spoke or ding the rim causing it to go out of true, then they don't work so perfectly either and can make the rest of the ride a real headache - or in some extreme cases turn it into a hike-a-bike where a disc wheel could be ridden out. or unless a rim strike results in a slight bulge but the wheel remains true, something discs are unaffected by but can seriously and detrimentally impact v's. perfectly until the seat stays bow out under hard braking.

so perhaps "if you maintain them properly they will generally work adequately" is a little more accurate.

imho discs are superior to v's on a mtb in pretty much every way.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

About 3 years ago after a very long descent at Coe one of my tubes exploded shortly after we stopped for a break. I had no idea why but searching the tire the rim was hot. The other 9 riders said "you have rim brakes?"

This thread has much to teach us about technology and how we manage it's changes. That bike from Coe was a cutting edge steel racing HT which started in 1997 full XT, with cantis , 8-speed, 63 mm shock, alloy flat bar, stem, seat post, tubes, grooveless saddle, toe-clips, a pre-octal ink bb. It ended up full XTR, 80 mm shock,Shadow der, v-brakes, ceramic rims, carbon bars, seat post, stem, cranks, spds, and would never go back.

Now? Full carbon dual suspension, 2x10 hydraulic disc brakes, carbon wheels, stem, seat post, bars, cranks, tubeless tires, 15mm thru axles. I'll never go back.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

V-brakes are superior, the fact that disc brakes are now standard is due to a conspiracy propagated by rotor manufactures. Rotor sales were painfully slow during the v-brake era so a full on propaganda campaign was launched to convince folks that their perfectly fine v's were not only useless, they were dangerous. The rotor mafia even went so far as to strongarm the surgeon general into presenting a report showing that prolonged exposure to v-brakes caused cancer in laboratory rats.

So now all the sheep are running disc brakes and the rotor boyz are laughing their @sses off as they push wheelbarrows full of cash to the bank, but they're going to have to pry my v's from my cold dead fingers before I give them up.


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## Dark Angel (Jun 4, 2013)

monogod said:


> if the r1 is the first generation that makes total sense. those brakes kinda stunk and had lots of issues.


2009-2010 was the time when i bought them...

Also from 1996 when i have had in my hands the first XTR V's and i ran them in pretty much everywhere trails, with mud, whatever gravel conditions the V's never never disappointed me. Sure the rims where needed replacement after a year of use. I started having all the Mavic rimes in a row from 217 Sup Ti, 517 Lemon, 517 Ceramic (the last ones died after 3 years of constantly use.) Now i am running a Mavic 717 XC rim and a new pair of V's (the last model BR-970) and it works perfectly + today i received 2 pairs of cool-stop V-Type2 Holder dual compound pads. And from a small ride the braking is unbelievably good!!!


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Dark Angel said:


> 2009-2010 was the time when i bought them...


no wonder you don't like discs. those are horrible brakes.



Dark Angel said:


> Sure the rims where needed replacement after a year of use.


yeah, that was my point exactly.

i've got disc wheelsets that have been in heavy use since 2006. replacing worn pads is cheap and takes 5 minutes. same for the rotor.

that being said, i still have a couple bikes with v's on them as well and they do perform adequately with good pads. however, there's a big difference in the fun factor between riding a bike with v's down the enchilada compared to one with discs. the performance of fast, repeated, heavy use of v's just cannot compare to discs on ANY level. period.

but as long as you're out there riding and having fun, that's the main thing. who knows though, perhaps sampling a better disc brake than the abysmal formula r1 would open up a whole new world of fun for ya....


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

like monogod said, not all disc brakes are created equally. compare a set of XTR discs to your XTR vees and you'll get a closer idea of how they compare. Shimano does brakes really well. Their vees were some of the best, and so are their discs. Can't fault them there.

Other companies? It's kinda a crapshoot. Bottom of the barrel vees IMO are usually better than bottom of the barrel discs.


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## Dark Angel (Jun 4, 2013)

monogod said:


> no wonder you don't like discs. those are horrible brakes.
> 
> yeah, that was my point exactly.
> 
> ...


Well i am in the middle of upgrading my FS bike XTR series from 970 to 980 and i was thinking to go with XTR Race Disk brakes or i should go to the Formula R1 2014 with the carbon fiber lever... Consider that i want to keep the weigh low the bike is a Canyon Lux MR CF.

As for the fun factor yeah my v's bike is a lot of fun for me also now that the cool-stop pads are been fitted on the brake is even more amazing. I see the temp of the rim hm it was so-so, and with some friends that we were going together for training at one nice trail 13 km from my house i give him my v's bike and i ride his with the Deore XT Disk Brakes they where very nice near in all conditions but i have the feeling that it may not stop me in short distance.

My friend that was riding mine v's bike he was speechless he never had a v's bike before and he was amazed he told also in some areas with heavy mud the brake wasn't responding so well but he admitted that the braking was like almost like a disk brake...

One guy in our "club" is running a v's bike with the light weighted KCNC V's they are way much lighter than any v-brake existed but the stopping power is to poor compare to the XTR... And to think that the KCNC v's are costing 3 times more money than a pair of XTR...


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Dark Angel said:


> Well i am in the middle of upgrading my FS bike XTR series from 970 to 980 and i was thinking to go with XTR Race Disk brakes...


do it! you'll be glad you did.



Dark Angel said:


> i ride his with the Deore XT Disk Brakes they where very nice near in all conditions but i have the feeling that it may not stop me in short distance.


they will not only stop you in a short distance, but do so over and over and over consistently and without fade and without wearing out the pads as fast as v's will.



Dark Angel said:


> My friend that was riding mine v's bike he was speechless he never had a v's bike before and he was amazed he told also in some areas with heavy mud the brake wasn't responding so well...


a common problem with v's no matter brand or model or pad. this is why even cyclocross bikes are going to disc brakes.


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## Dark Angel (Jun 4, 2013)

monogod said:


> do it! you'll be glad you did.
> 
> they will not only stop you in a short distance, but do so over and over and over consistently and without fade and without wearing out the pads as fast as v's will.
> 
> a common problem with v's no matter brand or model or pad. this is why even cyclocross bikes are going to disc brakes.


You believe that the XTR Trail version of brakes are better than the new Formul R1? What about the weight? i am pretty sure that XTRs must be heavier than Formula's.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

the xtr trail is lighter than the forumula r1 racing brake, which is formula's lightest brake.

xtr = 250 grams caliper, lever, & hose (front)
r1 racing = 270 grams for caliper, lever, & hose (front)

for some reason, though, formula claims their r1 racing brake to be the lightest on the market. 

the xtr trail also has cooling fins on the pads to dissipate heat. may not ever need it, but a nice built-in feature.


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## Dark Angel (Jun 4, 2013)

hm... cool i should go then with XTR Trail. Cause i am in a bit of upgrading and some parts like the CS-M980 10sp Cassette (250-256 grams) is heavier than mine CS-M970 ba 11-32 9sp (i weighted 229 grams). I wanted to have as much as possible to keep the same weight after the upgrade


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

sounds like a good plan. i don't think you'll regret it.

post up some shots of the finished upgrade. we like pics around here...


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## Shane5001 (Dec 18, 2013)

Dark Angel said:


> yeah it's a pity that you can't find neither frames or forks for V Brakes.
> 
> After i lost my RST Mozo Pro i tried to find some good forks for V Brake and i only found a Rock Sox XC 28 / 30 lame.... And the only one decent was a Magura TS6 and iam happy this one! And i will have for training days and for everyday use the V Brakes for a very long time in the future. I will stop using them when i won't find any pads for them.


You can, Surly Troll and Ogre. As well as their matching forks.


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## Shane5001 (Dec 18, 2013)

V-brakes were great, especially useful as a truing stand. But there is absolutely no comparison in stopping power to a quality well adjusted hydraulic disc brake. Apples to oranges.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Yeah. Besides the weight, not sure why you would bother comparing.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Brakes are not just about stopping. They are also about mitigating speed and consistency. Supple braking contributes to balance, timing, traction. Their application contributes to fatigue.

All else being equal, once you lock-up the brake types are no longer the issue. What happens before lock-up, at high rates of stress, under repeated use, where deft and reliable amounts of speed control are needed, is where disc brakes are superior. 

What discs can do to manage stopping power, as they take longer to lock-up, means that there is far more subtlety in modulation. It means you can break harder and longer before lock-up and skidding.

They dissipate heat better. Blow-outs from over heated rims can't happen. They require less force to use, so much the case with 1-finger braking allowed with hydraulics. They are more consistent under varied weather, moisture, temperature, and soil conditions.

Guys, I just sold my Bontrager Race Lite with XTR V-brakes and ceramic Mavics. Very few set ups were better and I believed in what they could do after 10 years of hard riding. My old Stumpy Pro had Avid mechanics; EZ set up, adjustment, quiet. My Anthem has hydraulic XTs; flawless. The day before I sold the Bonti I took a farewell ride on my old friend. The v-brakes are not even close to my discs, mechanical or hydraulic.

I simply cannot imagine any one riding all 3 and coming to any other conclusion. It's not rocket science.


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

> V-brakes were great, especially useful as a truing stand. But there is absolutely no comparison in stopping power to a quality well adjusted hydraulic disc brake. Apples to oranges.


I don't know about that. I currently have Shimano XTR V-Brakes on my bikes and they are some of the most powerful brakes I have used. Keep in mind I have never owned a set of hydraulic brakes, so I may be in for a surprise if I ever get a set.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Kona0197 said:


> I don't know about that. I currently have Shimano XTR V-Brakes on my bikes and they are some of the most powerful brakes I have used. Keep in mind I have never owned a set of hydraulic brakes, so I may be in for a surprise if I ever get a set.


yeah... but we do. and that's what we're trying to enlighten you about! 

joking aside though, you will absolutely be in for the surprise of your life if you ever get a set of good discs. as mike, myself, and others have mentioned it's not just about being able to lock the wheel up but rather about modulation, control, and consistency. especially when going down a long, extended trail where constant modulation of the brakes is necessary. like rapidly descending burro pass, for example.

discs are well worth the weight "penalty" and once you get a set you'll kick yourself for waiting so long.


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

I've had disc before. I've had Avid BB7, Avid BB5, Hayes MX1, Hayes MX4, Shimano Deore mechanical, Tektro IO, Tektro Novela, and various other no-name calipers. The closest I have ever come to owning a set of hydraulic discs is a set of Hayes Sole. 

I suppose when and if I can afford hydraulic, I will get some. For now, the XTR brakes work great, offer plenty of modulation and power.


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## Shane5001 (Dec 18, 2013)

Kona0197 said:


> I've had disc before. I've had Avid BB7, Avid BB5, Hayes MX1, Hayes MX4, Shimano Deore mechanical, Tektro IO, Tektro Novela, and various other no-name calipers. The closest I have ever come to owning a set of hydraulic discs is a set of Hayes Sole.
> 
> I suppose when and if I can afford hydraulic, I will get some. For now, the XTR brakes work great, offer plenty of modulation and power.


Those BB7's set up correctly are much better than the xtr v-brakes. I keep 2 sets as spares and am currently running a set.


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

The XTR V-brakes are lighter.


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## crashtestdummy (Jun 18, 2005)

Kona0197 said:


> The XTR V-brakes are lighter.


But stopping when you need to is much less painful.


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

I have no issues stopping with my brakes.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Like I said, stopping is not the only value of brakes. In fact stopping is probably the least frequently utilized feature of brakes.


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

I understand that. My brakes offer great modulation and power to stop or slow me down. It's all in the technique.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

How about when things get wet or muddy?

Maybe they work as well as they need to for your riding.


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*Try some mountain biking*



Kona0197 said:


> ...My brakes offer great modulation and power to stop or slow me down. It's all in the technique.


Try some actual mountain biking, on tough terrain, and with steep descents. Rides of 7.1 miles with 0 elevation gain and 8.9 miles with 34 ft. of elevation gain don't exaclty make you qualified to judge.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

> Wherewolf said:
> 
> 
> > Try some actual mountain biking, on tough terrain, and with steep descents. Rides of 7.1 miles with 0 elevation gain and 8.9 miles with 34 ft. of elevation gain don't exaclty make you qualified to judge.
> ...


precisely.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I do some actual mountain biking with descents, rocks and such and even though I'm still saddled with v's I don't think anyone has ever had to wait up on me due to that handicap. Honestly I've never been on a ride and thought "gee, I wish I had better brakes.." and as a matter of fact I'm really fond of mine, we are old friends and they have never let me down. I'm getting some stupid hydros next week (15 years behind current technology as usual) but they dang well better work as good as my trusty old Cane Creeks!

I do live in arid country.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> I do some actual mountain biking with descents, rocks and such and even though I'm still saddled with v's I don't think anyone has ever had to wait up on me due to that handicap. Honestly I've never been on a ride and thought "gee, I wish I had better brakes.."


it'd be fun to ride the enchilada and see if this changes.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

monogod said:


> it'd be fun to ride the enchilada and see if this changes.


The whole enchilada? Pretty sure I've done that.

I'm no Redbull huckster but I have ridden in what a lot of people would define as severe terrain. I'm not trying to say that v-brakes rule or anything silly like that, just saying that real mountain biking has been, and can be done with v's. As long as you live West of the Mississippi and South of Colorado, ish.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> The whole enchilada? Pretty sure I've done that.


together at my pace, was the implication, to see if "_I don't think anyone has ever had to wait up on me due to that handicap._" and "_I've never been on a ride and thought "gee, I wish I had better brakes._"" would change.



J.B. Weld said:


> real mountain biking has been, and can be done with v's. As long as you live West of the Mississippi and South of Colorado, ish.


agreed. in fact, it's been done everywhere with v's before and since discs. wet, sloppy northeast & northwest. ozarks and the carolinas. desert southwest.

people used to get around on horses all the time as well. just because it CAN be done doesn't negate the fact there may be MUCH better ways to do it.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> as a matter of fact I'm really fond of mine, we are old friends and they have never let me down.


Aha, there it is.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I remember on some of my business trips that I'll sometimes get stuck with a little automatic econobox that has the touchiest brakes in the world. There's a few out there that are all drum brakes still, but in any case, I can sometimes lock these things up with what seems like the slightest pressure. This compared to my car that has 14.4" discs, likely the same size as the wheels on these cars. These econo-boxes may seem like they have "powerful" brakes, but it doesn't mean they are good brakes or the control is there. Course, I had hydraulic mountain bike brakes before I had disc mountain bike brakes, so I was kinda spoiled and I've never been able to figure out the whole BB7 thing, as my experience with them was less than spectacular.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Jayem said:


> my experience with them [bb7] was less than spectacular.


that's odd. those are still some of the better disc brakes out there. ime problems with them have been user rather than brake related.

bb5's, on the other hand, can be an abomination...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

monogod said:


> together at my pace, was the implication, to see if "_I don't think anyone has ever had to wait up on me due to that handicap._" and "_I've never been on a ride and thought "gee, I wish I had better brakes._"" would change.


Why you gotta be that way mg? I'd ride with you and if the ups are steep enough I might even hang for awhile, though probably not likely because it sounds like you might be a pro rider or something.

My point is that if/when you or anyone else drops me I'll be at least 7 or 8 excuses deep before I get to the brakes, starting with legs, lungs, age, lack of carbon, etc., etc.

Why are all you fast guys so obsessed with slowing down anyway?


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

No complaints when it is wet. I don't usually ride in mud, can't tell you about that. They work well for my light XC type riding.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> My point is that if/when you or anyone else drops me I'll be at least 7 or 8 excuses deep before I get to the brakes, starting with legs, lungs, age, lack of carbon, etc., etc.


well played! :thumbsup:

outta rep today, but i'll be back to hit you tomorrow.


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## PerfectZero (Jul 22, 2010)

I recently dusted off my 15 year old Cannondale with V-brakes for about 3500 vertical ft. of park riding, and I can attest it was a moderately terrifying day. 

I first started learning on that bike and it was great back in the day, but now it feels pretty inadequate even on the same trails. Even though it's considerably lighter than my current "park bike," I was much, much slower primarily because I couldn't brake as efficiently.


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## Shane5001 (Dec 18, 2013)

Kona0197 said:


> I understand that. My brakes offer great modulation and power to stop or slow me down. It's all in the technique.


Unless you are a total natural bad ass on the bike, you're limiting yourself with the v's.


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## Shane5001 (Dec 18, 2013)

Jayem said:


> I remember on some of my business trips that I'll sometimes get stuck with a little automatic econobox that has the touchiest brakes in the world. There's a few out there that are all drum brakes still, but in any case, I can sometimes lock these things up with what seems like the slightest pressure. This compared to my car that has 14.4" discs, likely the same size as the wheels on these cars. These econo-boxes may seem like they have "powerful" brakes, but it doesn't mean they are good brakes or the control is there. Course, I had hydraulic mountain bike brakes before I had disc mountain bike brakes, so I was kinda spoiled and I've never been able to figure out the whole BB7 thing, as my experience with them was less than spectacular.


Each bike is slightly different. Set caliper barely loose, turn external pad dial 13-15 clicks, the tighten internal adjuster all the way with torque driver, snug the caliper. slowly loosen each side until no or little rotor rub and presto. Put some heavy chain lube on the inner cable on the rear brake for an even smoother brake. They can't match a good hydro but they are way better than any v/canti i've ever ran.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

three of my bikes are discs and I like them

but my fastest bike of all time is my 1999 Litespeed Tellico hardtail, with XTR v-brakes.
I am 95% the total natural badass on a rim brake bike. the other 5% are those huge scars on my face and legs

I love this bike and am absolutely my fastest on it, and it has rim brakes so of course I have to squeeze a lot harder and when rims are mud or wet lookout I almost die a few times every ride...but I was racing rim brakes from looooong ago and really...once you have a frame and ergonomic setup you like, it is all rider not equipment


no one -needs- discs but they allow much faster riding and control when it's sloppy out.
but...dry rims and dry v-brakes can nearly equal disc stopping power


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

> Unless you are a total natural bad ass on the bike, you're limiting yourself with the v's.


As I said, I have had disc brakes. Never owned a set of hydros, but I've had my share of mechs. I agree discs have more power. These XTR brakes i have have plenty of stopping power. Truth is I just can't afford discs right now.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

I have a set of XTR brakes from 2006...

The rear disk is original and has 40,000 km on it and a two Trans Rockies...

I think it is started to wear out, because it is starting to click like the pad is catching once a rev on it....maybe one of the "spokes"

I shudder to think of how many rims I would have blown through in that time....including long cold salty winters.....with V brakes.

and I don't like heavy wheels.


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## Dark Angel (Jun 4, 2013)

before i give-up my Formula R1 i am thinking change the organic pads with metalic or ceramic pads??? which of them are you thinking are better??? Also i take away the Formula Rotor Disks. I order the KCNC Razor Disc Rotor if after those upgrade doesn't satisfy me then i might give up on them and replace them with a new set maybe XTR BR-M985? or 988 Trail?

On the other hand the v's are doing fine after 2 hours happy time with my friends kool-stop pads have been fitted perfectly. I am having too much fun every day when i am commute with that bike.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

People still ride V-brakes?

If anybody complains about complexities of hydraulics, and cost, at least get some BB7 mechanical. Reuse your favorite levers.


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

V-brakes are cheaper, and I don't have to get a new wheelset.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

monogod said:


> that's odd. those are still some of the better disc brakes out there. ime problems with them have been user rather than brake related.
> 
> bb5's, on the other hand, can be an abomination...


I don't know if they are better now, but I had problems with:

Rotors glazing over due to excessive heat generated, leaving me with little available power when it was most critical.

Very short pad life, like a month (but makes sense when you consider the stopping power and friction generated, see "glazing over")

Pad adjuster vibrating OUT on rough descents, which on a scale of 1-10 for critical safety concerns is a 9 or a 10, because this would leave me with little or no brakes.

Pad adjuster knob (just clips in) vibrated loose from the brake, never to be found again.

Having to adjust the pad adjusters after a hard descent (separate from the vibrating out issue).

Little CPS mounts would twist ever so slightly when you tightened the bolts following the procedure. Looked at this very closely when doing it and it's not really possible to prevent, although it doesn't usually make for a huge problem.

Even if they've corrected these problems, I think they were a better "value" back then, when decent hyrdos were more, the cost has come down so far on hydros and not many people have cable levers lying around anymore, so it doesn't make as much sense economically.


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## dwt (Jul 19, 2009)

Axe said:


> People still ride V-brakes?
> 
> If anybody complains about complexities of hydraulics, and cost, at least get some BB7 mechanical. Reuse your favorite levers.


I have V's as rear brake on my old school circa 1990's 26" steel SS. No disc tabs. Hydraulic disk up front.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## team huffy (Feb 26, 2014)

When I lined up front of the 50 man class, I got some glaring looks, me with my 26" 3x8 speed, xtr v brakes. After I came in 40 seconds ahead of second place, they stopped looking at me like that. I would say the majority of MTB riders are way to concerned with their equipment, when they should really be more concerned with their riding and fitness. As stated before, get a bike that fits you well, and RIDE and ride alot. I have now demo'd a 29, 27.5 FS and hardtail w high end disk brakes, they were good, they stopped very well, better than my V's? I guess a little better. would it make faster laptimes? I don't think so. I did have a rotor get bent on a pretty easy crash, and had to have that thing rubbing the rest of the 22 mile ride, that sucked, you can straighten them out a little, but almost impossible to get them perfect, gotta buy a new one. I raced MX for many years, Rotors are a pain, they wear out fast if you actually measure them, and they bend if you don't have a guard, if you do have a guard, they get to hot and fade. I recently built my race xc bike, and I did my homework, I came to the conclusion that I could not match the performance/weight with disk vs top of the line v's. I have ceramic rims with the green pads, they stop as fast as I need them to stop no matter how hard i'm diving into a section. Yes, they do rub a little when your hammering, just open them up a bit and that goes away if your spoke tension is tight. Only reason I see now to get disk is there is no offering that I know of where you can have a carbon wheel and rim brakes. Carbon wheels are crazy light and I might go to disk in the future for that one reason. any weight reduction in rotating mass is always a good thing as far as racing is concerned, IMO. disk, v's, canti's, lycras, baggies, 29'er, 26'er, JUST GO RIDE!!


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## jonnybgood84 (Oct 7, 2014)

I have a 2014 GT Palomar. I need tp upgrade my wheels and want to move from V to disk. I need some experenced guidence .


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

probably be best to start a new thread in the brake subforum rather than digging up an old post.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

2ndgen said:


> And like I said, V Brakes require less maintenance


Lies.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

Axe said:


> Lies.


I'm not sure your post is going to have much impact as a rebuttal to a post made in 2008, from a forum member who hasn't posted anything since 2012.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Circlip said:


> I'm not sure your post is going to have much impact as a rebuttal to a post made in 2008, from a forum member who hasn't posted anything since 2012.


It was not a rebuttal. It is a part of the internet-wide quest for truth.


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Well Carbon is lighter but it also breaks easier than the other two materials. And because of this Carbon is mainly kept to XC race bikes where weight is of the utmost importance. And the bikes are meant for XC trails and not considered an "All Mountain" trail bike, which is the majority in today's market place. There will always be a market for carbon frames for XC racing and those obsessed with weight. Carbon also flexes more than Aluminum and Chromalloy. Which is not what you want in a hard core trail bike. Any suspension frame that is made from Carbon never receives more than 4.5" of travel as any more would result in frame failure. Carbon because of its flex can give a smoother less vibrating ride in a hard tail frame but once again can not take the abuse that an Aluminum or Chromalloy frame can. Chromalloy is not used as much these days due to Aluminums superior weight to strength ratio. Both are great materials but aluminum can be almost as strong but much lighter so aluminum is the preferred material in most of today's bikes. Carbon is also used in certain parts such as handlebars, stems, seat posts and is sometimes incorporated into parts of forks and derailleur's due to its lightweight and bling factor.


Quoted so we can all see who DJ used to be.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

lol....


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

V's










yeah baby!


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## mfx007 (Nov 23, 2005)

I am a fan of having a "good trail bike" and having a bike I can ride anywhere and not do much maintenance on it. I keep my old '99 with v-brakes in running order so that I can ride it without worrying about brake bleeding, not having to hear that annoying disk brake squeal, can take the wheels off without worry about squeezing the brake levers. I am also a fan of 8 speed gearing - basically a bike you can ride without having to do any maintenance. But for the "good trail bike", a decent set of disk grakes are generally better (though for x-country rising I maintain a decent v-brake is just as good). Seems a shame that entry level bikes all have crappy disk brakes where the user would be better served with v-brakes. The wheels and are likely low level, so upgrading the brake system is not a good reason for putting disk brakes on an entry level bike either.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I remember when I had a bike like that and I rode the hell out of it.[

I had to do maintenance because parts wore out.


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## Shane5001 (Dec 18, 2013)

team huffy said:


> When I lined up front of the 50 man class, I got some glaring looks, me with my 26" 3x8 speed, xtr v brakes. After I came in 40 seconds ahead of second place, they stopped looking at me like that. I would say the majority of MTB riders are way to concerned with their equipment, when they should really be more concerned with their riding and fitness. As stated before, get a bike that fits you well, and RIDE and ride alot. I have now demo'd a 29, 27.5 FS and hardtail w high end disk brakes, they were good, they stopped very well, better than my V's? I guess a little better. would it make faster laptimes? I don't think so. I did have a rotor get bent on a pretty easy crash, and had to have that thing rubbing the rest of the 22 mile ride, that sucked, you can straighten them out a little, but almost impossible to get them perfect, gotta buy a new one. I raced MX for many years, Rotors are a pain, they wear out fast if you actually measure them, and they bend if you don't have a guard, if you do have a guard, they get to hot and fade. I recently built my race xc bike, and I did my homework, I came to the conclusion that I could not match the performance/weight with disk vs top of the line v's. I have ceramic rims with the green pads, they stop as fast as I need them to stop no matter how hard i'm diving into a section. Yes, they do rub a little when your hammering, just open them up a bit and that goes away if your spoke tension is tight. Only reason I see now to get disk is there is no offering that I know of where you can have a carbon wheel and rim brakes. Carbon wheels are crazy light and I might go to disk in the future for that one reason. any weight reduction in rotating mass is always a good thing as far as racing is concerned, IMO. disk, v's, canti's, lycras, baggies, 29'er, 26'er, JUST GO RIDE!!


For starters, you're probably a total natural bad ass. XC races are won on the climbs imo, the most powerful and most fit. As far as "enduro" trail riding, really getting the most fun out of the downhill sections, "average Joe" can really benefit from disc. I took a mid 90's GT Pantera with avid single digit 7's (good brake) down one of my favorite fairly gnarley trails after being used to disc, holy sh**, talk about white knuckled levers to the handlebars. Of course I was trying to keep up with a Giant Reign.


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## Shane5001 (Dec 18, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> V's
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have always liked the looks of those brakes, they still sale them new.


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