# Liability Waiver - private property



## Matt 891 (Apr 23, 2007)

Hey guys. Anyone of yall put together any legal documents to protect you from someone getting hurt? In this day and age this is a real risk so my dad wants me to have something legit put in writing. The newest jump that is currently under construction has raised some eyebrows amongst the family..


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## blender (Oct 28, 2005)

If your dad is serious about protecting himself legally, he really should have a competent attorney draw something up. 
Unless somebody on this board is a closet lawyer 

The language in those things is very important to cover all the little "loop holes" that you'd never even think about.
It's honestly not something I'd take advice on from the intraweb


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## C S (Sep 26, 2007)

Here's one from the local ski area: http://www.skipajarito.com/files/mtb_release.pdf

Pajarito is privately owned so there should be some similarities with this document and what you are thinking about. I don't know if there are any differences when dealing with an individual (you) rather than a group (the ski club).

Edit: FYI, I had nothing to do with writing this. I just signed it :thumbsup:


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## Matt 891 (Apr 23, 2007)

yea i didnt think i would just be able to throw something together..

If i have to see a lawyer about it then thats what i will have to do. just seeing if anyone had any similar experiences such as my own.

Thanks guys.


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

Big Jump? This thread is worthless without......


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## DHgnaR (Feb 20, 2008)




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## amannil (Feb 16, 2009)

Uncle Cliffy said:


> Big Jump? This thread is worthless without......


pictures..?


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## DHgnaR (Feb 20, 2008)

Uncle Cliffy said:


> Big Jump? This thread is worthless without......


pictures of women in thongs...
Damn, whatever happened to that thread?


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## amannil (Feb 16, 2009)

what's a frontal lobotomy?


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## DHgnaR (Feb 20, 2008)

amannil said:


> what's a frontal lobotomy?


Something Dahmer did to boys before he raped them... 
Or for the more "formal" explanation; if you can call wikipedia formal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy


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## amannil (Feb 16, 2009)

that's a very casual definition for "ravishment"


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## CdaleProph6 (Mar 4, 2008)

d

Email Dave at THE LAND freeride park...there is a contact link on the site www.freeridepark.com. the waver that he has written up covers all bases completely and im sure he would be willing to help you out with that. it takes him a bit to get back to you sometimes but he does and is really approachable about stuff like that

~J


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## DHgnaR (Feb 20, 2008)

amannil said:


> that's a very casual definition for "ravishment"


Lobotomy does not mean rape, or ravishment. It's an old form of personality altering by severing neural connections in the brain, basically putting a small rod into someones head and moving it back and forth to destroy specific areas once thought to control specific human emotions or functions. It doesn't work, as later discovered that areas of the frontal lobes are not necessarily function specific, and one could not pin point any specific undesirable trait and "erase" it by destroying that part of the brain. 
Nothing to do with ravishment. Dahmer though, would attempt to render his victims defenseless and basically turn them into sex zombies by messing with their brains. He would end up killing them because he had no idea what he was doing.


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## Matt 891 (Apr 23, 2007)

this jump isnt even that impressive. it just happens to be the biggest of my jumps thus far. a ten foot ladder with a slight incline leading into some flat. we are building a temporary tranny out of pallets. the shaddyness of the temp. tranny is what got everyones attention i think. haha


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

With all the lawsuits going on in america even a waiver won't stand up in court. i worked at a Climbing gym for a long time. we had a few lawyers being paid to take care of the legal stuff but when it comes down to it they can still sue you and win.

The biggest thing that they can get you for is if something wasn't maintained properly. for example at the climbing gym if someone got hurt because a hold broke or came loose then they could win a lawsuit.

so for your purpose if you didn't take care of the lips or if the ladder or pallets broke when someone landed on them and then they got hurt they would have a lawsuit and could probably win.
that is what i hate about america.


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## Tim F. (May 22, 2006)

climbingbubba said:


> With all the lawsuits going on in america even a waiver won't stand up in court. i worked at a Climbing gym for a long time. we had a few lawyers being paid to take care of the legal stuff but when it comes down to it they can still sue you and win.
> 
> The biggest thing that they can get you for is if something wasn't maintained properly. for example at the climbing gym if someone got hurt because a hold broke or came loose then they could win a lawsuit.
> 
> ...


Those who have the more expensive lawyer, generaly win. Hire Johnny Cochran!:thumbsup:


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## CdaleProph6 (Mar 4, 2008)

Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!








If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests

gets em every time


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## neverwalk (May 14, 2005)

In my experience, having run a bunch of events, most waivers for parks and events are developed with input from lawyers, knowing that the waivers will ultimately have pass a review from the legal department of the insurance companies or their underwriters who are providing insurance for the property.

The fundamental problem is usually the perception of "negligence" i.e. did that ramp get built properly, did you do take into account every conceivable outcome of someone riding off the jump that you built.

The problem is you can't.

We all understand that sh*t happens when we ride, but juries will see someone in a wheel chair, or a set of weeping parents/siblings/friends, and feel they need to award some $ to make them feel better, or cover actual medical expenses.

Lawyers can talk almost ANYBODY into suing. Even your best friend's parents, if your best friend is sitting in a wheelchair, and now the parents know that they will have to take care of him for the rest of his life.

I am a DH'er/Freerider, and I do stuff that normal common sense says I shouldn't do ALL THE TIME!!! As a homeowner, and a parent trying to make sure I can provide a good future for my child, I would NEVER build sh*t on my own property and let a minor ride off it. NEVER!!!!

Answer this truthfully: Do your parents, and all your friends parents, _really_ know what you ride your bikes off? One kid I was talking to on a mountain bike camp I run answered this truthfully once. The kid's friend wanted to hit a jump, that to me looked sketchy, he had no gear, just XC stuff, no fullface, armor etc., XC bike etc... So I said no. Not during my program, because how would I ever explain to his parents what happened if I said it was OK and he got jacked up. I said "Do your parents know that you are hitting this stuff?" (Mind you this was something I would have hit, and two or three other kids could have, but not with the gear they had at that moment.) He hemmed and hawed, and then his buddy said " If they had ANY idea what we ride off, They'd take our bikes away immediately."

That's the problem with having _ kids_ riding this stuff. They can't be seen by a jury as having been able to make a prudent decision, that could affect the rest of their lives. The parents would need to sign the waiver for them, and they'd have to know what the kid was doing. Your Dad would be completely at risk , for any bad decision that your lamest friend made on the spur of the moment, going off the lip.

Do the gnarly stuff in the woods, on public lands, someplace where the responsibility isn't gonna land on your family. Even _having_ a waiver might actually make it worse, as it implies that you knew that what you were doing was sketchy....


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

By the sounds of it, the best thing you can do in the states if some one hurts themselves on your property, is shoot them, bury them somewhere and hope no finds out... :thumbsup:


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## neverwalk (May 14, 2005)

How do you guys build the rollers on _your_ pumptracks?


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## CdaleProph6 (Mar 4, 2008)

neverwalk said:


> How do you guys build the rollers on _your_ pumptracks?


the grave mounds of tresspassers...and people who threatened to sue


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## rmb_mike (Jun 12, 2007)

Matt 891 said:


> Hey guys. Anyone of yall put together any legal documents to protect you from someone getting hurt? In this day and age this is a real risk so my dad wants me to have something legit put in writing. The newest jump that is currently under construction has raised some eyebrows amongst the family..


What state do you live in?
Go google the <insert state of residence>'s landowner liability laws.

For example, I live in TN so this would apply to me:
http://injury-law.freeadvice.com/injury-law/tennessee-accidents-premise-liability.htm
http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_issues/land_liability.html

They basically say that as long as you aren't charging admission and as long as they don't get hurt on any man-made stunt solely due to improper maintenance or disrepair of that stunt, the landowner is not liable, at least for TN.

Instead of making everyone sign something, you could just print a copy of your state's liability laws, AND possibly even go see an attorney and get him to back that up and maybe notarize a sheet of paper for all of your visitors to read. 
If they see an official sheet of paper from a licensed attorney and the law itself, that should tell them right there that they would have no case if they got injured on their own account.


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## Ray Lee (Aug 17, 2007)

I would think his billable rate is down somewhat considering he is dead.



Tim F. said:


> Those who have the more expensive lawyer, generaly win. Hire Johnny Cochran!:thumbsup:


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## Matt 891 (Apr 23, 2007)

rmb_mike said:


> What state do you live in?
> Go google the <insert state of residence>'s landowner liability laws.
> 
> For example, I live in TN so this would apply to me:
> ...


thanks man! im going to look into that.

to maybe clear things up a bit; im not exactly a kid. im 23 and in college. there would be very few minors up at my place riding. my jumps arent sketchy either. we do our best to make em solid.

ill post a pic of the jump after we get some session time on it along with a nice tranny.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Matt 891 said:


> thanks man! im going to look into that.
> 
> to maybe clear things up a bit; im not exactly a kid. im 23 and in college. there would be very few minors up at my place riding. my jumps arent sketchy either. we do our best to make em solid.
> 
> ill post a pic of the jump after we get some session time on it along with a nice tranny.


Friends of mine in college used to build jumps, big doubles, at school and at home. Including a pro level 30+ ft gap built with a backhoe (I didn't hit it, lol).

Never any talk of waivers. But it's probably a good idea.


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## rmb_mike (Jun 12, 2007)

Tim F. said:


> Those who have the more expensive lawyer, generaly win. Hire Johnny Cochran!:thumbsup:


Those who have the *smartest* lawyer, and most versed in interpreting the law and finding loopholes will win.

More expensive doesn't always mean better.


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## mark03 (Jan 17, 2008)

climbingbubba said:


> With all the lawsuits going on in america even a waiver won't stand up in court. i worked at a Climbing gym for a long time. we had a few lawyers being paid to take care of the legal stuff but when it comes down to it they can still sue you and win.
> 
> The biggest thing that they can get you for is if something wasn't maintained properly. for example at the climbing gym if someone got hurt because a hold broke or came loose then they could win a lawsuit.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure this guy is right. I mean i guess its better to have something in writing, but if something serious does go down, your still going to get bent over. If i were you i would at least make sure they hammered one nail into the jump so you can say you(they) built it too.


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## 69nites (Aug 20, 2008)

this is an issue that differs from state to state, you're going to need to find out what your local laws for liability on private land are. In the end a waver will mean nothing if your state's laws require you to be liable for it.


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## rocketmatt17 (Sep 10, 2007)

*Llc*

You should look into forming a Limited Liability Company and rent the property from your dad this will help protect you even more. We were also requiring yearly memberships and issuing id cards so people couldn't say they didn't sign the waiver when they really did. This allows you to give yourself one more layer of added protection. You can also look into setting up your idea as a non-profit which in my state (SC) gives you added protection unless you are found guilty of negligence


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

matter what people sign they can still sue for negligence....and that is 10 to 20 grand for lawyer just to start case


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## igotbanned (Oct 20, 2007)

FTW :thumbsup:


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## stretch169 (Jul 23, 2006)

I went through this with my teenage boys. We built a small dirt bike track on our property (including some jumps) for our own enjoyment but they couldn't understand why I wouldn't just let any of their friends come over and ride. I don't think there is any way to adequately protect yourself in these situations, especially where there could be a paralyzing injury. Two years ago we changed homeowners insurance companies and the new company made us get rid of a trampoline or they were dropping us (I was glad, I didn't want the thing to begin with). 

Dave


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## rmb_mike (Jun 12, 2007)

stretch169 said:


> I went through this with my teenage boys. We built a small dirt bike track on our property (including some jumps) for our own enjoyment but they couldn't understand why I wouldn't just let any of their friends come over and ride. I don't think there is any way to adequately protect yourself in these situations, especially where there could be a paralyzing injury. Two years ago we changed homeowners insurance companies and the new company made us get rid of a trampoline or they were dropping us (I was glad, I didn't want the thing to begin with).
> 
> Dave


Just exactly how did your h.o. insurance know about the trampoline?



> matter what people sign they can still sue for negligence....and that is 10 to 20 grand for lawyer just to start case


SMT, anyone can sue anyone for anything. Lest you forget that retarded judge who tried to sue that dry cleaning company....for 54 million dollars no less because they messed up his 'favorite' pair of pants. 
Luckily the other judge who had the decision to go forth with that told the first judge to get lost and I believe he almost lost his job because of that...along with quite a bit of public ridicule (which is what anyone who tries file a frivolous lawsuit needs).


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## neverwalk (May 14, 2005)

They probably did a physical inspection of the property. Most companies do nowadays. Be kind of hard to hide a Trampoline....


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## rmb_mike (Jun 12, 2007)

neverwalk said:


> They probably did a physical inspection of the property. Most companies do nowadays. Be kind of hard to hide a Trampoline....


Really? When I bought my house the March before last, USAA never came over and inspected anything before they insured me.

It's not like you can't just give them lip service, and tell them you'll remove the trampoline with no plans of removing it. They're not going to waste the manpower to come over and check up on you.

But if he didn't want the trampoline there anyway, I guess it worked out for everyone.


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## stretch169 (Jul 23, 2006)

rmb_mike said:


> Just exactly how did your h.o. insurance know about the trampoline?
> 
> Homeowners Insurance companies periodically take pictures of the insured property, especially when it is a new policy. At least they let us keep the pool... When I got an Umbrella policy they made me insure my dirt bike.


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## neverwalk (May 14, 2005)

When we changed carriers for my mom's house, the underwriters went over the property like they were looking for a bag of money that they'd be allowed to keep. I couldn't believe the level of the inspection. Photos of every room, all electrical inspected, if the house didn't have a new roof, they'd have been getting out a ladder.....


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## rmb_mike (Jun 12, 2007)

neverwalk said:


> When we changed carriers for my mom's house, the underwriters went over the property like they were looking for a bag of money that they'd be allowed to keep. I couldn't believe the level of the inspection. Photos of every room, all electrical inspected, if the house didn't have a new roof, they'd have been getting out a ladder.....


Sounds like you should have went with USAA. 
There's no way I'd let an insurance company come in and 'white glove' my house like that. 
There are plenty of other homeowners' insurance companies that don't crawl up every orifice that you own.

Here's what would have happened with me:
Agent: Sir, we're going to need to come to your house to inspect it.
Me: Why?
Agent: Because we need to know what we're up against.
Me: Anyway to waive that or get out of it?
Agent: I'm afraid not.
Me: Ok then sir. Since USAA, Farm Bureau, etc. don't require a 'white glove' home inspection and can go by the list I send them, I'm going to go ahead and hop off here and go with one of them. Thanks for your time. *click*

My philosophy is that if I'm paying them, things are going to be on MY terms. If one company doesn't want to give me what I ask for, others will. I've never, ever, ever once had an auto insurance company want to come out and white glove my car before they insured it. Homeower insurance companies aren't going to start doing that to my house either.
/hijack & rant


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## pillete (Apr 30, 2006)

rmb_mike said:


> Sounds like you should have went with USAA.
> There's no way I'd let an insurance company come in and 'white glove' my house like that.
> There are plenty of other homeowners' insurance companies that don't crawl up every orifice that you own.
> 
> ...


 I agree with you. You are contracting the insurance company to protect you in case that something goes wrong, if they start looking into the ways not to cover you since the beginning, what guarantees you that they will cover you when something goes really wrong.

Getting back on track, a friend of mine have dirt jumps, and a pump track in his backyard. He got waivers signed by anyone that came into the jumps, however we were talking to someone that is knowledgeable in this matter, and apparently even with signed waivers, people can come after you, at least in (PA, NJ, NY and CT). Make sure you get insurance, that is the best way if not the only way to protect yourself, also make sure you have a BIG "No Trespassing" sign, apparently a $2 dollars sign, could come a long way in case that someone gets hurt when you are not around, good luck:thumbsup:


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## rmb_mike (Jun 12, 2007)

pillete said:


> Getting back on track, a friend of mine have dirt jumps, and a pump track in his backyard. He got waivers signed by anyone that came into the jumps, however we were talking to someone that is knowledgeable in this matter, and apparently even with signed waivers, people can come after you, at least in *(PA, NJ, NY and CT)*. Make sure you get insurance, that is the best way if not the only way to protect yourself, also make sure you have a BIG "No Trespassing" sign, apparently a $2 dollars sign, could come a long way in case that someone gets hurt when you are not around, good luck:thumbsup:


Yeah the IMBA link on liability did say that it varies greatly from state to state. 
The TN one is pretty cut and dry; as long as you are not charging admission and as long as someone doesn't get hurt solely due to the poor construction*, the owner is not liable.
*meaning if they lack coordination, and ride off the side and injure themselves, owner is not liable
And yes we have No Trespassing signs on our lot.


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## 69nites (Aug 20, 2008)

rmb_mike said:


> Yeah the IMBA link on liability did say that it varies greatly from state to state.
> The TN one is pretty cut and dry; as long as you are not charging admission and as long as someone doesn't get hurt solely due to the poor construction*, the owner is not liable.
> *meaning if they lack coordination, and ride off the side and injure themselves, owner is not liable
> And yes we have No Trespassing signs on our lot.


the same is true for IL, it's the recreational use statute. That doesn't mean they can't try to sue you and bury you in legal fees.


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## rmb_mike (Jun 12, 2007)

69nites said:


> the same is true for IL, it's the recreational use statute. That doesn't mean they can't try to sue you and bury you in legal fees.


Oh no doubt for sure. 
However, anyone who decided to file a lawsuit would most likely be buried in legal fees too, so hopefully any sue happy riders would think twice before proceeding.
And even if they got one of those litigation attorneys who doesn't get paid until they do, those attorneys are usually pretty picky about the lawsuits they do file; meaning if they don't think they can win it, then they would thus not get paid and would not take the case.

One thing that has helped us is the fact that there have been a few riders that are still in their teens to come out and check the place out and ride; all of them have had their fathers come out with them to check the place out too. So far all of the dads have given us plentiful compliments on how solidly our stunts are built. That makes them feel more comfortable and in turn makes us feel more comfortable. They seem to notice all the effort Kenny and I put into the durability/integrity of our structures, and the relative safety factor we've also included. 
I really, really think the biggest issue with the North Shore style stunts are the build quality of them. 
If a rider falls off of one of my stunts because of a mistake he/she makes, it's on them.
If a rider falls and crashes off one of my stunts because I left a decking piece loose or a stringer comes loose from its supporting post, that's on me.


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## string (Jan 13, 2004)

Good thread.

Just remember, you can never sign away gross negligence and while often hard to prove its very easy to sue claiming gross negligence. There is almost always some personal injury attorney willing to take a case on contingency...especially if you have an insurance company involved. 

Regardless of if you win or loose the case, you still loose....time, money, and it sucks being sued.

While a waiver is a good starting point and does not hurt to have, a large insurance & umbrella policy which covers specifically what you and your guest are doing will protect you better.

It is very much worth the cost of the policy when you can turn a suite over to your insurance company for handling and defense. (in most cases insurance will settle...and personal injury lawyers know this thus the reason there is almost always a lawyer willing to take it on contingency).


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