# Fitness improvements after 50+



## mudge (May 15, 2010)

Curious, but for anyone who has started training w/ power and possibly using a coach as well, have you had any success in improving your "numbers"? 

For example, what sort of FTP improvements have you seen, if any? Or, have you found that significant improvement isn't really possible after a certain age?

thanks!


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## fred-da-trog (Oct 28, 2003)

I think the numbers differ for everyone. My mtb peak was 55 and really dropped at 60. Regardless, work with the hand you are dealt and keep it fun.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Everyone's experience is different. My experience is that I found my fitness improved significantly through specific cross training.

My cancer treatments started at 50 and despite feeling fatigued, spacy, I rode year round. Since then I even learned to DH ski, and continued to do spinning, and yoga when I wasn't riding. Yet my muscles atrophied and I bloated because of the steroids from the chemo. Add menopause ... I had alot of strikes against me. I was a hot mess  

3 years after cancer treatments started, I began to do crossfit. I've been training regularly (5 days/week) for 2.5 years now. I'm also running (something new to me), lifting, doing gymnastics etc. Plus I squeeze in 2 big rides per week 

My health has improved and my body has transformed; I am stronger (I track my PRs) and my riding endurance and strength has significantly improved. My mental test is I challenge myself on hill climbs I could not do pre-cancer. 

If I only relied on riding to return to my pre-50 year old fitness level I would not have the same health and fitness level I have today. In addition nutrition plays a significant part. I eat clean (vegetarian/vegan). My only cheat is the odd bit of dark chocolate. 

I'll see how this goes but I do like the results. I ride and workout with my hubby. He is also a testament to training as well.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

cyclelicious said:


> Everyone's experience is different. My experience is that I found my fitness improved significantly through specific training. (snipped...)


Thanks for the feedback, and more importantly, Congratulations!


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## Centurion_ (Aug 13, 2011)

fred-da-trog said:


> I think the numbers differ for everyone. My mtb peak was 55 and really dropped at 60. Regardless, work with the hand you are dealt and keep it fun.


+1

Similar experiences, only a bit earlier, at ages 48-50. Was doing 430 for my heavy squat sets with an RMX of about 500. Was a roadie, and was out sprinting guys half my age.

But it's been all downhill from there, with some disappointingly steep descents.

In retrospect, I often wish I hadn't gone so aggressive in the gym. Had a hernia repair at age 51, and I think pushing heavy weights aggravated the back and hip issues I've been dealing with for the past fifteen years.

But like the quote above...you work with the hand you're dealt and you keep it fun. The alternative isn't something I like to think about.


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## Fuzzle (Mar 31, 2015)

cyclelicious said:


> Everyone's experience is different. My experience is that I found my fitness improved significantly through specific training.
> 
> My cancer treatments started at 50 and despite feeling fatigued, spacy, I rode year round. Since then I even learned to DH ski, and continued to do spinning, and yoga when I wasn't riding. Yet my muscles atrophied and I bloated because of the steroids from the chemo. Add menopause ... I had alot of strikes against me. I was a hot mess
> 
> ...


Your are an inspiration to me. I think about you when things get tough. This is what I need to hear since today is a bad day.

My struggles aren't cancer as I have mention before but I feel sick, on and off. I know the clock is ticking at my age and I know I need to get off the couch but, it's hard because the symptoms are really bad. Of course the lovely menopause and come to visit too. Hate it!!!


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

I do bodyweight workouts, no iron. Treadmill, long hikes, or riding for cardio. I have phone apps for my workouts, give me the set/reps combo for the day, even includes a timer for rests between sets. I am 62, so I really do not care about getting big. I watch my diet and try to keep eating better.

It takes longer to recover between workouts, and injuries heal slower. I accept the fact I will never again have the body I had at 22. I hope to just keep the grim reaper away as long as possible and stay active until the end. My ultimate life goal is to outlive my pension and become a burden on the taxpayers. 

I have a bucket list goal -- the 1000 pushup challenge (1000 pushups in one day, any combo of reps/sets as long as they total 1000).


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

At 65, I don't ride the way I used to but I still ride the same trails. Just at a steadier old guy pace, which fits well with my rigid steel 8sp Alfine ride. It may take a bit longer to recover conditioning, but I don't seem to lose it as fast either. I started doing my own rides when I turned 55, a sort of "if not now when?" realization, and have upped my level of enjoyment ever since, so all in all, I would say I'm still getting smoother and more efficient on the bike, still hurt in the Spring and rail in the Fall, have lost my tolerance for servicing complicated bikes, like soft fat tires, ride more effortlessly. I really enjoy bikepacking, never been much of a racer but sure do like to explore the backcountry. It does take more to motivate myself for bad ideas... :thumbsup:


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

I don't do any programmed exercise or training. 

I'd sooner just go for a ride, and when I go out I usually have no fixed route in mind. 

It's very much a case of follow my front wheel wherever fancy may take me, eg the sky looks bluer in that direction, or I wonder where that track goes to, ie relying on serendipity.

I reckon just riding my rigid singlespeed looks after stuff like core, because you have to be more dynamic on it when the going gets steep, and without suspension your arms get a good workout too.

However now I'm in the 70+ bracket I have noticed a decrease in aerobic capacity - not measured, just based on gasps per metre, so maybe I should start getting serious.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Unless you've been in an intensive well structured training regimen for the past few years, you can certainly improve from where you are now.


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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

My real improvements started when I was 45 and began spinning. I'm 53 now and still am maintaining/spanking as hard as ever.

What I notice, though, is I am a bit creaky later. Oh, and I NEED an hour nap later in the day. Like comatose. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

Bat cave comatose. Deep in the dark corner of my basement. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Lone Rager said:


> Unless you've been in an intensive well structured training regimen for the past few years, you can certainly improve from where you are now.


Yes. But the question is how much time/effort/commitment is one willing to put into the regimen. Most of us have lives outside the gym, and are no longer interested in getting ripped and looking great with the shirt off, making the ladies swoon. I am unwilling to spend hours daily on the workout. If I get a bit stronger and keep my resting HR down, keep at least some of excess weight of, I am happy.

I can put an extra hour a day into my workouts and gain those extra few percent, or I can go riding for that hour. I prefer riding.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

It's road biking oriented, but check out "The Time Crunched Cyclist" by Carmichael and Rutberg. Another good one is "Cycling Past 50" by Friel. Both of these described the physiology and methodology behind training. The first, describes training plans with compromises for those with limited time. 

Both are intended for achieving relatively high levels of fitness and cycling performance that go well beyond just being healthy and in decent shape. If you're pudgy and out of shape, it doesn't take much to improve substantially. If you're in really good shape and have a high level of fitness, it takes a concerted effort and plan to improve a relatively small amount.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

dave54 said:


> ...and are no longer interested in getting ripped and looking great with the shirt off, making the ladies swoon...


I can make the ladies swoon if I take off my shirt.

Maybe it is time I went down to the gym and worked on those stomach muscles...


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

Lone Rager said:


> It's road biking oriented, but check out "The Time Crunched Cyclist" by Carmichael and Rutberg. Another good one is "Cycling Past 50" by Friel. Both of these described the physiology and methodology behind training. The first, describes training plans with compromises for those with limited time.
> 
> Both are intended for achieving relatively high levels of fitness and cycling performance that go well beyond just being healthy and in decent shape. If you're pudgy and out of shape, it doesn't take much to improve substantially. If you're in really good shape and have a high level of fitness, it takes a concerted effort and plan to improve a relatively small amount.


thanks. Familiar w/ and have read portions of both of those books. And, thanks for staying on topic. 

I thought I was specific enough in my questions, but I should've known the thread would go off on a number of unintended directions.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Fuzzle said:


> Your are an inspiration to me. I think about you when things get tough. This is what I need to hear since today is a bad day.
> 
> My struggles aren't cancer as I have mention before but I feel sick, on and off. I know the clock is ticking at my age and I know I need to get off the couch but, it's hard because the symptoms are really bad. Of course the lovely menopause and come to visit too. Hate it!!!


Thanks Fuzzy! The benefits of a little exercise helps to boost the mind, body and spirit


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I think it's very attainable to keep a high level of fitness at our age. It just takes time and dedication towards that goal. 

While I have not hit up a race yet this season, I do know that I'm stronger this year than in possibly the past 10 years. I guess I'll truly know come race time and if I suck, I will crawl back into a hole and cry myself to sleep!


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## ajjrsons (Jul 15, 2015)

@cyclelicious - that is most definitely inspiring, nice work! 

I've got the typical worn out knees and multiple bulging discs, so no running or heavy weights. I focus on balance exercises - lots of barbell work while balanced on one leg with the abs taut. I still do almost all the sets forced on me from PT rehab for the back. And the abs look great, despite my taste for strong beer. 
The more I ride, the more I want to ride. It's really the only sport I can do right now and I am fine with that. 
just started XC racing (beginner) to push myself. It was the goal I set 2.5 years ago when the back injury put me down. 

My advice to all back pain - 1. Ice, ice, ice. 2. Work those Abs with balance exercises constantly. 3. know your limits.


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## older'nslower (Feb 28, 2009)

I see fitness improvements when I adhere to the Wahls Protocol diet (modified Paleo). The trouble is that I stray from it. Often. When I'm on it though, I simply recover faster and am able to hit the trail/gym again sooner. It's all about the mitochondria. 

However, I have not tried the supplements that promise to boost mitochondrial performance. I'm a bit suspicious of them.


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

Read It Learn It Live It.

https://www.velopress.com/books/fast-after-50/

synopsis: shorter higher intensity rides more recovery rinse repeat


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

HAL 9000 said:


> Read It Learn It Live It.
> 
> https://www.velopress.com/books/fast-after-50/
> 
> ...


I read that this past winter. So yes, intensity over slow lengthy rides, weight training and recovery time. It's much more complicated than that of course, but these are some key points.


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## Centurion_ (Aug 13, 2011)

Cycling Past 50, (Joe's earlier book), provides the nuts and bolts for putting your program together. The newer book...Fast After 50...not so much. I have purchased several copies of Cycling Past 50 over the years, have given three away, and still have two heavily underlined, dogeared, and frequently referred to copies in my "bowflex room.".

What I have taken from his newer work is to do even more and slower volume (more zone 2 as opposed to zone 3 riding), but honestly, other than that...Joe's earlier book is the one I go to when planning/tweaking my program.

Cycling Past 50 (Ageless Athlete): Joe Friel: 9780880117371: Amazon.com: Books


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## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

mudge said:


> Curious, but for anyone who has started training w/ power and possibly using a coach as well, have you had any success in improving your "numbers"?
> 
> For example, what sort of FTP improvements have you seen, if any? Or, have you found that significant improvement isn't really possible after a certain age?
> 
> thanks!


I went through about a 2-3% improvement after age 50 for FTP thanks to a few things. Most of that was due to actually using _a very well spelled out for me_ structured training program (and consultations), and power meter. Before that, any training I did was self directed trying to follow some sort of structure (Morris and Friel) on my own. I think the other item was having readouts available in real time to know what I could do and push myself to go harder during a race knowing I wasn't going to blow up. Pretty sure had I been following that information before, I would have found myself spending way too much time in Zone 3 during a CAT II race - or what I would call using perceived effort at the time "just riding along rather than racing". I could feel it, but didn't have a read out to guide me.

Now I do.

Top that off with weight loss (using a method I know you do not agree with - CICO - to cut the weight during base period in 2014 and 2016). I was racing about 15-20 pounds lighter in 2014 than I had ever raced before, and I am a few pounds below that this year. So of course I saw better on the bike performance due to the better power to weight ratio.

FTP has registered about the same this year in the tests I have done so far as the prior two seasons. However, this year's testing has all been done during a weight cut which is not ideal for showing any improvement. Cutting is now done and I am in the interval training build period, so we shall see over the next 6 weeks what transpires this year now that the eating at a slight deficit to cut is completed.

Average HR was about 2-3 beats slower at the same power average during the first race of the year this weekend, but that's most likely due to the lighter weight. Only 4 minutes of a 1:45 race was spent in Zone 3 - most likely ramp up and some descents, so at least I know with the data I can keep in my race zones during the race (compared to before). A category upgrade from front of the pack overall, to now latter third of the pack overall is a nice reality check.

Good news is - I'm still having a great time at it.:thumbsup:


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

ride bmx still. lots of balance drills on balance ball (kneeling/standing) , indo boards and trx bands. like c-licious said...its about the eats as well.


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## RIDESLOW (Dec 21, 2007)

During my 50's i tried different coaches and bought all the power meters, i got on the podium maybe once a year in 50+ cat 1 .Now i'm racing 60 + and i lost 15 lbs ,CICO.
This has made more of an impact than all money spent on coaching.
I wish i learned this when i turned 50.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

RIDESLOW said:


> During my 50's i tried different coaches and bought all the power meters, i got on the podium maybe once a year in 50+ cat 1 .Now i'm racing 60 + and i lost 15 lbs ,CICO.
> This has made more of an impact than all money spent on coaching.
> I wish i learned this when i turned 50.


I've already done the weight loss thing, and I'm not finished with it. I'm ~20 lbs lighter than this time last year, and perhaps 15 lbs lighter than the last time I was racing even remotely well.

I tried a PM for the first time last Fall and only recently (as in, 2 months ago) hired a coach. Since I'd already lost a bunch of weight (which, like in your case, made a huge difference) I'm just curious as to how much gain I can make in FTP, for example, given my reasonably fit starting point and moderately advanced age (59).

I would really like to add about 15-25W to my FTP, don't know if it's feasible, wondering if anyone else has seen big gains or not.


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

It is pretty simple folks

Ride slow get slow Ride fast get fast you are NOT going to get any fitter, faster, stronger riding in the old man t-shirt rally ride tourist group.

Find your local weekly Tue/Thur Worlds hammerfest or Saturday sufferfest ride and do it religiously. 

Yes you are going to get your ass handed to you yes you are going to get dropped yes you will be crippled for the rest of the week after finally finishing one. However eventually the riding with younger faster stronger CAT2 and CAT1 racer types will get you where you want to be.

IF...

You are serious about getting fitter and faster because as you see improvements your attitude will evolve and it will be very easy to eat right not drink that don't indulge in this as you see the pounds fall off and your speed and endurance pick up. I'm not saying live like a monk however showing up to a fast paced group ride and being the hammer and not the nail is a prime motivator.

I understand this stuff about getting a coach and getting a plan "serious training" and power meters etc...been there done that it is a vicious cycle and it eventually leads to burnout once you either reach your goal or plateau (without a plan forward).

Bottom line if you want to get fit get fast get stronger or whatever network with folks that are or doing what you want to be doing and remember 

Ride Lots - Eddy Merckx


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

HAL 9000 said:


> It is pretty simple folks
> 
> Ride slow get slow Ride fast get fast you are NOT going to get any fitter, faster, stronger riding in the old man t-shirt rally ride tourist group.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing you've been around about as long as your screen name, and the screen name is an ironic twist on your Luddite tendencies???


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## Centurion_ (Aug 13, 2011)

Ride Lots - Eddy Merckx.

The kind of "lots" Merckx was talking about is...like...20-25 + hours per week on your bike. While you may not be able to accomplish this in the old man rally tee shirt group, trying to ride that much with younger faster Cat 2 riders ain't gonna work either.


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

mudge said:


> Luddite tendencies???


Never said was against information or training with power can speak the code as well as anyone functional threshold power, lactate threshold, V02 Max, lactate tolerance, aerobic/anaerobic boundary, calculating training zones etc...

Those are are useful training tools however all too often are used as a crutch or excuse maker in my experiences with other riders and racers.



Centurion_ said:


> The kind of "lots" Merckx was talking about is...like...20-25 + hours per week on your bike. While you may not be able to accomplish this in the old man rally tee shirt group, trying to ride that much with younger faster Cat 2 riders ain't gonna work either.


I do believe some one pointed to the time crunched cyclist book earlier in this thread if 20-25+ hours a week is too much for most people. I do believe the title to this thread was fitness improvements after 50+ so if your goal is gatoraide and bananas charity ride perhaps your fitness goals are different from others that want to be competitive in their state XC or Road racing series.

The Truth Is A Bitter Pill To Swallow


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

HAL 9000 said:


> Never said was against information or training with power can speak the code as well as anyone functional threshold power, lactate threshold, V02 Max, lactate tolerance, aerobic/anaerobic boundary, calculating training zones etc...
> 
> Those are are useful training tools however all too often are used as a crutch or excuse maker in my experiences with other riders and racers.
> 
> ...


Are you always such a jerk, or was today a special day where you woke up and decided to be different?

I know what the title of the thread is. I started the thread. I also know I didn't ask for opinions as to whether it matters or if it's worth it to have a coach or to "train with power". I asked a couple of very simple questions and prefaced those questions to folks who have done the same thing.

If you've done what I'm doing and want to respond to the questions, great. If you haven't, why'd you bother to respond in the first place? I mean, aside from not being able to pass up the opportunity to belittle someone or misjudge what they're up to or why they're doing it.

I've been at the whole bike racing gig for the better part of a quarter century, won a few dozen races, lost a ton more, medal'd at nationals,blah, blah... don't need you telling me what my goals are or whether they're worth having.

BTW, where'd the BS about gatoraide and bananas charity rides come from? Seriously, what's wrong with you?


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

mudge said:


> I'm guessing you've been around about as long as your screen name, and the screen name is an ironic twist on your Luddite tendencies???


Eddy Merckx has been know to dispense very poor advice...be warned!


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

Talk about paralysis by over analysis.

It is very simple common sense if you want to get fast, you have to go where the fast guys are that means connecting up with the local weekly hammerfest rides going to as many races as you can and putting yourself in the hurt locker. Treat every ride like a race when riding solo attack going into headwinds attack when the road goes up if you never confront pain, you're missing the essence of the sport.

Yesterday I posted a link to a very useful book _Fast After 50: How to Race Strong for the Rest of Your Life_ it has *all *the answers to anyone's questions who is 50+ about fitness. Rather than getting butt hurt about what I posted and my tone perhaps time would have been better spent looking into it along with the other reading recommendations that were given on this thread.

Perhaps this article will help Ned Overend Is the Champion Cyclist Who Never Grows Old | Outside Online

You don't need a coach some powermeter or need to know what your FTP numbers are if you are unwilling to suffer to do whatever it takes to elevate yourself above the rest, all the patting on the back and information overload nonsense is useless. Bottom line if you can't deal with the sacrifices the suffering the experience of pain you know...the stuff that separates the winners from the losers.

Then perhaps coach HAL9000 or anyone else can't help you.

"When it's hurting you, that's when you can make a difference" - Eddy Merckx


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

HAL 9000 said:


> Talk about paralysis by over analysis.
> 
> It is very simple common sense if you want to get fast, you have to go where the fast guys are that means connecting up with the local weekly hammerfest rides going to as many races as you can and putting yourself in the hurt locker. Treat every ride like a race when riding solo attack going into headwinds attack when the road goes up if you never confront pain, you're missing the essence of the sport.
> 
> ...


I'm not butt hurt over anything. I am, however, more convinced that you're an ass.

Like I said, I didn't ask your opinion about the value/worthiness of what I'm doing. And I don't need to take your advice and just follow the tips already given. I didn't ask for tips. Don't need your tips. Especially your tips. I've taken the approach you're talking about, as anyone who raced before the advent of powermeters has done. And, back when no one was using powermeters, it was a good approach, maybe even the best approach.

It's certainly not the best approach anymore. Short of doping, there really isn't a better way to get fitter and faster than training with power. Well, not if you really want to maximize your gains.

If I may ask, where do you get the impression I'm not willing to suffer to do what it takes? Somehow you can glean this from a simple question about how much improvement others have seen, if they train with power vs taking your old-school approach? What you're not getting is that it is comments like that the portray your attitude and they come across like you're saying you ARE willing to suffer and anyone else not doing like you obviously isn't.

Based on what you listed in your post on the roll call thread, it looks like I've been at this about a decade longer than you, and I'll stack my racing/training experience, my race results, and my willingness to suffer, against your's anytime.


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## Tribble Me (Aug 27, 2012)

I have zero experience with power meters and don't know anyone that has one. I have always understood that they are less informative for MTB because of the up and down nature of the trails with less consistent pedaling. Are you using one on the trails or also on specific training rides?

You might get more knowledgeable answers about power meters/training in a road bike forum, I only suspect this because I read more about roadies using them than MTBers.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

BruceBrown said:


> I went through about a 2-3% improvement after age 50 for FTP thanks to a few things. Most of that was due to actually using _a very well spelled out for me_ structured training program (and consultations), and power meter. Before that, any training I did was self directed trying to follow some sort of structure (Morris and Friel) on my own. I think the other item was having readouts available in real time to know what I could do and push myself to go harder during a race knowing I wasn't going to blow up. Pretty sure had I been following that information before, I would have found myself spending way too much time in Zone 3 during a CAT II race - or what I would call using perceived effort at the time "just riding along rather than racing". I could feel it, but didn't have a read out to guide me.
> 
> Now I do.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Bruce. Don't know how I missed your comment, I would've responded sooner.

This is the sort of info I was after. Like you, all of my testing has been during a fairly substantial weight loss phase. That's done for now, so I was hoping for an idea of how much I may be able to improve going forward. Shooting for at least 5% on my FTP. Time will tell.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

Tribble Me said:


> I have zero experience with power meters and don't know anyone that has one. I have always understood that they are less informative for MTB because of the up and down nature of the trails with less consistent pedaling. Are you using one on the trails or also on specific training rides?
> 
> You might get more knowledgeable answers about power meters/training in a road bike forum, I only suspect this because I read more about roadies using them than MTBers.


Not using a PM on the mtb. I have one on my road bike and my TT bike. The fitness gains will apply to all disciplines, when it gets right down to it, so I couldn't see sucking the fun out of riding my mtb by turning those rides into "training".


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I think HAL is trying to break it down to base. Going to the limit as much as possible is the best way to move forward in the sport of racing. Some folks can manage that Gestaltist approach and others benefit from a structured, or scaffolded (ex. periodization), system.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

Crankout said:


> I think HAL is trying to break it down to base. Going to the limit as much as possible is the best way to move forward in the sport of racing. Some folks can manage that Gestaltist approach and others benefit from a structured, or scaffolded (ex. periodization), system.


That may be what he's trying to do, but you'd be very hard pressed to find anyone who's an expert in the field who would agree with that approach.


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## Tribble Me (Aug 27, 2012)

mudge said:


> Not using a PM on the mtb. I have one on my road bike and my TT bike. The fitness gains will apply to all disciplines, when it gets right down to it, so I couldn't see sucking the fun out of riding my mtb by turning those rides into "training".


That make sense to me. I'm not willing to ride on the road much. Atlanta area traffic and drivers scare me. I've had several friends that have been hit. There are some places I will road bike but they are all at least a 1/2 hour drive. I do think that adding some road work would help the mtb fitness. It's just tough to work into the life schedule.


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

Crankout said:


> I think HAL is trying to break it down to base. Going to the limit as much as possible is the best way to move forward in the sport of racing. Some folks can manage that Gestaltist approach and others benefit from a structured, or scaffolded (ex. periodization), system.




Holy Cow!
It seems not only automotive and Subaru WRX/STI forums are full of hypersensitive tissue-paper feelings types now cycling forums have these same little delicate snowflakes that need a disclaimer before any advice is doled out or they get all bent out of shape.

So here goes&#8230; YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY however based upon my experiences here is what you might expect.

As someone who has only been doing this cycling "thing" for the last two decades I may not have the vast pool of knowledge as some. However I'm a fast learner and been around the block a few times with this whole coaching/training/power-meter/fitness/peaks coaching group stuff enough so that I can dispense some perhaps limited knowledge on the subject from time to time. (Mudge see photo of my proof of street cred as I have the book and an SRM)

I'll not bore anyone with details but I've been aware of the advantages AND dis-advantages of training with power since I acquired my first Saris PowerTap hub fifteen years ago and shortly after that hired a coach in an attempt to transform a wannabe into a contender (Ha!)

With tons of enthusiasm and eagerness we delved into what my strengths and weakness were what my FTP and all the other acronyms gobbly **** that goes into a "training plan" and I attacked it with military like discipline. YES I saw improvement YES it was trackable YES the plan worked and I rocketed up the race results sheets (for a while) and YES YES YES I totally stopped riding for fun enjoyment and all the other reasons that I bought a bike in the first place. I was totally obsessed with training that's all I did so much so that I would not ride my Mt.Bike until race day as I had gone full roadtard.

Fast forward in less than one season I was burned out to a crisp. Being hard headed after I felt like riding again months later and got the competitive itch again I didn't learn from my mistakes and repeated the entire cycle again and again every two years expensive new bike expensive new SRM expensive new coach thinking this time I'm gonna get it right!

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein

I have seen others whom are 10X more talented than myself run into the same buzz saw of total supernova burn out and have never returned to cycling as OSB (other sports beckon). Once again YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.

I am in no way advocating, implying or suggesting that you don't train with power and a plan if you're serious as you HAVE to have a way to track changes in your fitness. However after incurring some serious injuries one right after another for the last five years. I've personally been reborn Once again YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY! Thus so I have embraced a carpe diem attitude to riding and have seen vast improvements in my physical and mental health towards riding/training/racing that I never got while slaving away at structured training plan obsessing over numbers and perfection.

In one word it is balance.

Just like these morons on these Subaru forums obsess over getting AWHP (all wheel horsepower) to a certain "number" with this and that mod or tune they are not seeing the bigger picture of percentage gains Vs dollars spent. Same goes for threads on cycling about training with power and raising ones FTP by X percent as Once again YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY from the last guy that posted because everyone's experiences are different and if your aiming a X percent based upon what you read on the internet you will be disappointed.

Mudge sorry if I come off crass or raw however I'll be willing to bet you will see much more interest on your investment of riding time with faster stronger riders and really putting yourself into the hurt locker than you ever will sitting on some trainer staring at some power-meter numbers based upon some arbitrary plan. However this is just an OPINION do what makes you happy.

BTW if you really really want to destroy yourself if you do these Interval Training | Bicycling]T-Max Intervals correctly you will be tasting your lunch and be crippled for the next day or so afterwards. However it's a fast way to get freaky fast especially the 50+ bunch. Once again YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

HAL 9000 said:


> Holy Cow!
> It seems not only automotive and Subaru WRX/STI forums are full of hypersensitive tissue-paper feelings types now cycling forums have these same little delicate snowflakes that need a disclaimer before any advice is doled out or they get all bent out of shape.
> 
> So here goes&#8230; YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY however based upon my experiences here is what you might expect.
> ...


Let me get back to the original question, and you tell me if your diatribe answers it... if you have trained with a powermeter, how much improvement in your numbers did you see?

Now, I don't know if you're a movie buff or not, but most of us have probably seen Pulp Fiction. If so, do you remember the scene at the restaurant, where Uma Thurman's character asks John Travolta, "when you're having a conversation, are you listening or just waiting to talk?"

Well, that's sort of what happens on internet forums. People don't care to read the threads and respond to questions or add commentary that relates, they're just waiting to interject with whatever they feel the topic should be.

So, with that in mind, Hal, I'm not a delicate flower who needs a tissue before you give me advice. As I said before I wasn't asking for tips and I wasn't asking for validation. I neither need nor want your advice. I'm not interested in being a slower, less fit racer. (hint: what's a faster time, 12:49 or 13:09?)

I was asking a very specific question about improvements that others may or may not have seen as a result of training with power. I posted the questions in this specific forum because I am interested in what other older riders have experienced.

If you want to prattle on about how much burn out you suffered or how good you've become after discovering the secret of hard, fast group rides, by all means start your own thread. Or not. I couldn't give a half a happy rat fart if you do.


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

mudge said:


> Let me get back to the original question, and you tell me if your diatribe answers it... if you have trained with a powermeter, how much improvement in your numbers did you see?


Enough improvement that I am fast enough so I never have to encounter or ride around fat ass weekend warrior ouachita "tour" phreds asking asinine questions on cycling forums repeatedly.

I believe that answers your question.


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## mudge (May 15, 2010)

HAL 9000 said:


> Enough improvement that I am fast enough so I never have to encounter or ride around fat ass weekend warrior ouachita "tour" phreds asking asinine questions on cycling forums repeatedly.
> 
> I believe that answers your question.


Well, that's where you're wrong. The question wasn't asinine and I only asked it once. And, in case you didn't get the hint, let me explain. It goes to your point about fat ass weekend warriors. You really should feel bad about this. Get a tissue before reading further.

You may not know who I am, but I figured out who you are from info on your introduction in the roll call thread. On a lark, I checked your race results on the USAC page.

When I realized that you've done quite a bit of mtb racing in TX and LA, I looked to see if there was even one day we raced at the same event, as I've raced a little bit in the ArkLaTex area. I found one. '08 Piney Hills

You'd been racing as a Exp/Cat 1 for a few years, essentially filling out the field. Me, I was doing my 4th mtb race ever. The only reasonable comparison we can make would be the TT. I beat your time by 20 seconds. Lowly sport class racer in his 4th race ever, beat you.

This may seem petty, but keep in mind, you apparently are a dedicated mtb racer who revels in the fact that you're a cat 1, but you don't realize you're not very good. As an mtb racer, I'm not good and I'm the first to admit it. I'm a cat 1, also, but only because I was forced to upgrade after a podium finish in every mtb race I did for that year.

And, while I'm not a particularly good mtb racer (though I am a cat 1), I'll still compare results with you any day. When you've medaled at Nationals or at States in any discipline, get back to me. If you even get on a podium, get back to me.

In the meantime, I gotta go do my intervals. 4 podiums in the last couple of months isn't enough. (this is the point in the discussion where you can picture me doing a mic drop)


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## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

mudge said:


> Thanks, Bruce. Don't know how I missed your comment, I would've responded sooner.
> 
> This is the sort of info I was after. Like you, all of my testing has been during a fairly substantial weight loss phase. That's done for now, so I was hoping for an idea of how much I may be able to improve going forward. Shooting for at least 5% on my FTP. Time will tell.


I would like to say I hope it is totally doable, but it's all based on how far you have come to get to where you are now, and what the genetic/physical limitations are going forward from where you are.

I'd welcome a 5% FTP improvement from my current level, but am realistic that the gains are tough to achieve year after year once one has reached or is close to their genetic limit. Hence, my focus on body and bike weight this year to set myself up for the best success along with skills and bike handling. The mental game of who wants it more during a race when battling it out for position often comes down to a very minimal, but all so important difference for me.

I'm rooting for you (and me) to eek out what we can.:thumbsup:


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