# The eMTB Controversy: Why do mountain bikers and their associations reject eBikes?



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

The eMTB Controversy: Why do mountain bikers and their associations reject eBikes? - MountainZone


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

For the same reasons as why this is legal on some trails: 









While this is not legal on the same trails:







i


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Why do mt biker groups reject e motorcycles? The state I live in ( MA) says that MOTORIZED vehicles, for the most part are not allowed on multiuse ( hiking) trails on state land. Numerous other town conservation, land trust and land owners are in agreement. So its everyone, not just the mt bikers. Who realize that adding a MOTOR to a bike makes it something else. And subject to different rules. / thread. Cheers.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Um...they are not bicycles. We like to ride for the challenge of using our own power to go as fast as possible (or not I suppose) and tackle the obstacles inherent along the way. 

An e-bike is cheating. Go use your moped on the road where it belongs.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Crankout said:


> Um...they are not bicycles. We like to ride for the challenge of using our own power to go as fast as possible (or not I suppose) and tackle the obstacles inherent along the way.
> 
> An e-bike is cheating. Go use your moped on the road where it belongs.


List of Mopeds in the State of Texas: If you see any electric BICYCLES, please point them out...
http://www.dps.texas.gov/msb/documents/CurrentMopedList.pdf


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

mtnbikej said:


> For the same reasons as why this is legal on some trails:
> 
> I do have fun on those as well...when the opportunity comes...love the sand dunes...your welcome to ride your mtb bike out here...


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Fat bikes rule! Love to beach ride when the trail are too muddy during spring thaw. Dunes would be great.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Probably for the same reason Snowboards were rejected by resorts and Skiers in the early years of snowboarding. Also hikers and mountain bikers access. Ignorance and clout.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Nah, snowboards is a different story. I was there for that and it was stupid, but it had nothing to do with motors or adding extra speed/power. 

More equivalent would be opening up a ski area to low power snowmobiles or something.

-Walt


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

PierreR said:


> Probably for the same reason Snowboards were rejected by resorts and Skiers in the early years of snowboarding. Also hikers and mountain bikers access. Ignorance and clout.


 Snowboards have motors? Want.....


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Crankout said:


> Um...they are not bicycles. We like to ride for the challenge of using our own power to go as fast as possible (or not I suppose) and tackle the obstacles inherent along the way.
> 
> An e-bike is cheating. Go use your moped on the road where it belongs.


 Who is being cheated? If it's not a race how can riding an ebike be cheating?

I have never heard a cogent explanation of this attitude: if I choose to ride an eMTb on a legal trail how can I be cheating myself. And if we are not in a race, how could I be cheating anyone else? This just does not make sense on any level I can see, can anyone explain?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

WH, exactly; apparently only MTBR individuals can condemn someone for riding a legal bike on a legal trail. Truth be told, most (Not JBW, KJ, SHM or Walt, probably a few others) would rather see you commute on a diesel semi than an e-bike, just know they would exhibit their radical nature if the went off this deeper end.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

fos'l said:


> WH, exactly; apparently only MTBR individuals can condemn someone for riding a legal bike on a legal trail.


Anyone can talk whatever kind of stupid crap they want to, this whole sub is an incredible manifestation of exactly that.


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## patico_cr (Apr 19, 2017)

I don't really know why the hate towards e-MTB's. 

It's useful for people who want to ride with a group but just can't keep their pace. 
They can look for another group, rigth? NO. Friends are who you like to be with, and if the e-motor helps you accomplish that, good for it. 

However, if a e-MTBiker decides to compare with a 'normal' biker, of he/she brags that they reach the summit before you, well.... let them cheat themselves. 

About those bikes being dangerous for other bikers, I don't think so. It's not like they will be roaring 40mph uphill. 
They are only dangerous for your pride LOL


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Wow, another ebike thread, LTZ, how many did you start in the lest 24hrs?

I see that you've been a member here since 2013, but it seems like you've been away since then and just came back to the forum to try and sway mtbrs into thinking ebikes are ok. Did you even look at all the older ebike threads? They have a history of turning into ****-shows. Did you think posting a few links would change anything? We've heard every reason under the sun why they should be allowed from the ebike community.

I was undecided about allowing ebikes on non-motorized trails, but today, I think I've decided I'm not for it. It's this attitude of entitlement that emtbrs seem to have, and a complete disregard for what the majority thinks. I'll eat my words if you can prove otherwise.

I'm in pretty bad shape right now, and there's lots of people I couldn't keep up with, boo hoo. Do I go out and get a motor? Heck no, I ride my bike as much as I can till I get in better shape and can keep up.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> Wow, another ebike thread, LTZ, how many did you start in the lest 24hrs?
> 
> I see that you've been a member here since 2013, but it seems like you've been away since then and just came back to the forum to try and sway mtbrs into thinking ebikes are ok. Did you even look at all the older ebike threads? They have a history of turning into ****-shows. Did you think posting a few links would change anything? We've heard every reason under the sun why they should be allowed from the ebike community.
> 
> ...


Sorry for that Cornfield, like your postings...


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Sorry for that Cornfield, like your postings...


My apologies for getting heated. I'm sure most of you guys/gals would be great to sit down and have a beer/coffee with. And I'll admit that I've been pretty grumpy today, got a root canal coming up. It just seems like things would go much better for you guys if you'd just keep doing what you're doing, letting others see what ebikes are all about on a personal level, and slowly becoming more accepted. Coming to a mtb forum and stirring the pot is guaranteed to rile people up!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cornfield said:


> Wow, another ebike thread, LTZ, how many did you start in the lest 24hrs?


And why 2 practically identical ones with the same links?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Not that all these threads don't turn out more or less identical anyway.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

what do you do with the battery when it expired? it can't charge anymore. Giant ebike has 1000 charge. does it go to normal battery recyling center?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Picard said:


> what do you do with the battery when it expired? it can't charge anymore. Giant ebike has 1000 charge. does it go to normal battery recyling center?


 good start...search here...
Battery & Cellphone Dropoff Locations | Call2Recycle | United States


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

You could take it to any place that recycles cell phone and power tool batteries I would imagine, a non problem.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

BTW, this may be a little spammy, but may interest some that Haibike is doing so well in Europe with its ebikes that it's helping keep the pedal products afloat. This is in reference to 411's comment. Early on in the forum I said (tongue planted very firmly in cheek) that MTB riders were responsible for the surge in ebikes because if they would have purchased enough new bikes, the manufacturers wouldn't have had time to develop the "e" programs.


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## Robopotomus (Oct 6, 2013)

Each go their own. We all have our own opinions on this subject. 

However, ebike trail access is a first world problem. There are much greater humanitarian and environmental issues in the world that whether ebikes should be allowed on a particular trail. 

If only we were as passionate and animated about ending famine and disease in third world countries, finding a cure for Alzheimer's and cancer, and tackling climate change. The world would be a much better place.

Just saying.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

WoodlandHills said:


> Who is being cheated? If it's not a race how can riding an ebike be cheating?
> 
> I have never heard a cogent explanation of this attitude: if I choose to ride an eMTb on a legal trail how can I be cheating myself. And if we are not in a race, how could I be cheating anyone else? This just does not make sense on any level I can see, can anyone explain?


Ah...forget it. Please pass me the EPO.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtb411 said:


> I'm not a big fan of ebikes as bicycles, but I am sympathetic from a practical perspective if it can help bike companies maintain or even increase their sales which could benefit the bicycling community as a whole.
> .


Bike companies' and shops' profits have ZERO impact on my participation and/or enjoyment of the sport. Unless you make money selling bikes, the same can most likely be said of you. And if someone is weighing this issue from the perspective of 'how much can I profit" then their opinion is tainted and worth **** IMO.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

411; excellent points; this year at Sea Otter there were kids bikes for $3495 like they thought this might be the next big thing. 27.5, fat bikes and plus sizes haven't spurred the dormant sales, so maybe ebikes or kids bikes. The industry is in big trouble IMO.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> Bike companies' and shops' profits have ZERO impact on my participation and/or enjoyment of the sport. Unless you make money selling bikes, the same can most likely be said of you. And if someone is weighing this issue from the perspective of 'how much can I profit" then their opinion is tainted and worth **** IMO.


Aren't you being a little hard on ****?
It's actually pretty useful stuff...


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Crankout said:


> Ah...forget it. Please pass me the EPO.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Crankout again.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Did someones say EPO?

For the cost of an ebike you could have something that weighs half as much and pedals like a dream*...

Can an ebike do this?










*I'm not affiliated with Canfield in any way, and I have never ridden an EPO, just drooled over them on the internets.


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## patico_cr (Apr 19, 2017)

Cornfield said:


> Can an ebike do this?


This reminds me of that scene in "I, Robot" where Will Smith is harassing the robot Sonny, asking if a robot is capable of composing music or turning an empty canvas into a work of art. 
"Can you?", replied the robot.

Well... none of my bikes have been able to do that, even being beast powered. 
I believe a good enough rider would be able to do that with an eBike.

Whether the e-bike can withstand the landing, is another story...


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Found in the ad at the bottom of this forum:

*E3 DASH - 2015
In a hurry? This bike can sure hustle and is built to get you through town lightening fast and under great control.
$1,599.00 $*


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Crankout said:


> Found in the ad at the bottom of this forum:
> 
> *E3 DASH - 2015
> In a hurry? This bike can sure hustle and is built to get you through town lightening fast and under great control.
> $1,599.00 $*


I've actually been flagging all eBike ads. Passive aggressive? Maybe...


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Cornfield said:


> Did someones say EPO?
> 
> For the cost of an ebike you could have something that weighs half as much and pedals like a dream*...
> 
> ...


No, of course not, they suck on the downhills.

[video]https://www.pinkbike.com/news/coastal-crew-skeptical-video.html[/video]


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Harryman said:


> No, of course not, they suck on the downhills.
> 
> [video]https://www.pinkbike.com/news/coastal-crew-skeptical-video.html[/video]


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Responding to the OP's Blog post:

1) If you think getting wilderness open to bikes now is tough, ebikes will kiss those chances goodbye, since anti bike orgs will rightly so claim there's no way to tell them apart, let alone regulate them. And they will in no way buy the claim that they are not motorized.

2) Allowing blanket access based on the impact from bikes that are being sold now is premature since power and torque will rise to the higher limits allowed by our legislation.

3) Being able to ride farther is greater impact per rider.

4) Being able to ride faster in more places provides more opportunity for user conflict.

5) Zero effective enforcement where I live means anything with a motor and pedals will become an "ebike"

6) Derestricting, tuning, yada yada. 

My organization and myself share the same view on them, I think they are cool and a lot of fun, but they are not bicycles and the differences will continue to increase as they evolve. Access should be decided locally by land managers based on their unique characteristics, and at a time of their choosing. If the land managers allow them, have at it. If not, tough tiddies, I can't ride my mtb everywhere I'd like either, I can live with it. 

I'd support ADA exemptions for Class 1 anywhere. My local land managers have adopted a wait and see postion until the technology and impact starts to settle out, which seems wise.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Harryman said:


> Responding to the OP's Blog post:
> 
> 1) If you think getting wilderness open to bikes now is tough, ebikes will kiss those chances goodbye, since anti bike orgs will rightly so claim there's no way to tell them apart, let alone regulate them. And they will in no way buy the claim that they are not motorized.
> 
> ...


Quite possibly the most balanced comment here.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Sure, but even with all that tech, mountain bikes aren't really much faster than they were 25 years ago (excluding ultra-gnar DH/jump lines, which isn't what's being discussed here). You spend 80% of your time climbing on a typical XC ride, and the limiting factor is basically power. 

Motors, on the other hand (I have firsthand experience with a LEVO to prove this to myself) do make bikes go much, much faster overall. The top speed on a LEVO is probably not any different than top speed on a normal mountain bike (on the downhills) but the climbing speed is basically going to double. 

Second, the "well they're coming so get used to it" is, to me, sort of equivalent to blaming a mugging victim for being in a bad part of town. There's an element of truth to it, but that doesn't mean it's ok or something to celebrate. 

-Walt


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Walt said:


> Second, the "well they're coming so get used to it" is, to me, sort of equivalent to blaming a mugging victim for being in a bad part of town. There's an element of truth to it, but that doesn't mean it's ok or something to celebrate.
> 
> -Walt


I think what they're really saying is really "I _want_ to do this, therefore everyone else _will_ do this, therefore I have my justification for doing it, and it has nothing to do with the fact I really want to because it's everyone else's fault, not mine."

There's a lot of that going around these days...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Walt said:


> Sure, but even with all that tech, mountain bikes aren't really much faster than they were 25 years ago (excluding ultra-gnar DH/jump lines, which isn't what's being discussed here). You spend 80% of your time climbing on a typical XC ride, and the limiting factor is basically power.
> 
> Motors, on the other hand (I have firsthand experience with a LEVO to prove this to myself) do make bikes go much, much faster overall. The top speed on a LEVO is probably not any different than top speed on a normal mountain bike (on the downhills) but the climbing speed is basically going to double.
> 
> ...


Of course, we heard all the same hype about Segways, which the the e-bike is basically they cycling version of. Can't recall the last time I saw one of those...maybe when the ownerof the company fell off that cliff while using one and died?

Segway Co. Owner Drives Segway Off Cliff, Dies - CBS News


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

As long as ebikes remain lawful, which is the only thing the manufacturers can sell in CA, they'll get lighter, more bling, but must be Class 1, 2, or 3 to sell here for bike path use (very few places that I know of - the Santa Monica Mountains being the exception - permit them off road except where ICE's are allowed). So they may get quicker (accelerate faster), but no increase in top speed.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mtb411 said:


> We've seen this play out a gazillion times.
> 
> *Indexed shifting*: WUT? Indexed shifting? Who needs that?!? You can't repair indexed shifters! Friction shifters are so simple and last forever! You can't mix and match! Japan taking over the world! Close the borders! You're dumbing down the bike experience!
> 
> ...


There is one difference, the *MOTOR*. There is no getting around that no matter what tortured logic you choose to apply to it.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> Did someones say EPO?
> 
> For the cost of an ebike you could have something that weighs half as much and pedals like a dream*...
> 
> ...


Yep....


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mtb411 said:


> Large font =/= evidence.
> 
> RED font =/= evidence.
> 
> ...


Denial of the motor just makes your twisted logic even more so stupid. Rage on.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mtb411 said:


> Large font =/= evidence.
> 
> RED font =/= evidence.
> 
> ...


illogical thought =/= evidence

Outfielders in baseball could be given cannons so they could fire the ball home, should be ok because it is "technology"?

Quarterbacks in US football could be utilizing drones to accurately deliver a pass, should be ok because it is "technology"?

Chess players should be allowed to use a computer to analyze their next move, should be ok because it is "technology"?

Tour de France racers should be allowed to use a motor because it is "technology"? 
Why not just let them ride motorcycles? (oh wait, same thing)


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mtb411 said:


> btw, you're an idiot.


That's all you've got? Resorting to name calling just proves my point even more so. Thanks for playing. Poorly but you tried bless your heart.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mtb411 said:


> That's all you've got? Resorting to name calling just proves my point even more so. Thanks for playing. Poorly but you tried bless your heart.


More tortured logic?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Responsible, respectful, reputable and reticent...these will be required so we can all continue to enjoy the trails...

We are our own worst enemy for the most part...a little respect goes a LONG way....


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## Fix the Spade (Aug 4, 2008)

From a trail building perspective they are a liability and insurance nightmare.

We are lucky here in the UK in that 'Power Assisted Bicycle' is a legally recognised category of vehicle with has definitions and limits on motor type, power output, throttle control weight and so on. For official trails it's made life relatively easy, the land owners or more often whoever is providing the insurance simply state this trail is/is not suitable for power assisted bicycles, end of discussion. A lot of red/black trails have simply seen blanket bans on E-bikes, which I'm fine with, between the weight and the ground clearance E-bikes suck on technical trails (and yes I have tried).

Things get much murkier on unofficial trails. There are huge numbers of mtb trails in Europe that basically exist because of the goodwill/apathy of the land owners. Cyclists are treated like ramblers in this regard, we can go more or less anywhere and the land owner isn't responsible for our safety if we're not there 'officially'. But E-Bikes aren't bicycles, they're a separate category, nobody really knows where they stand yet and it makes land owners very nervous indeed.

But it gets even murkier, over here an E-Bike has 250 watts of power or less, any more and it's a motorbike (a Moped specifically) . With things like Motos and horses, land owners are expected to define where they can and can't go, they're also responsible for maintaining rights of way and can be held liable for accidents on them if they don't. A Turbolevo can be unlocked to 750 watts, at which point a motorbike is being ridden on a mtb trail. If it's an official trail no problem, the rider is trespassing and the one in trouble. On as yet undefined trails the land owner has to either make the trail official (signage, grading, suitable for XYZ usage etc, which takes time and money) or take steps to prevent the motos to continuing to go places they shouldn't. Which usually means the trail getting plowed up. If they know powered vehicles are using a particular route regularly and do nothing it can be taken as the land owner accepting the trail as a right of way. At that point they're responsible for maintaining it and if some idiot on an unlocked bike plows into some hikers or breaks his back the land owner could be in a world of hurt.

Understandably most go with the cheapest option. Back in the 90s before the attitude towards mtbs improved trails getting plowed was seen as a fact of life. Things improved massively in the 2000s but it took a lot of work, a lot of negotiating and a lot of good behaviour. A whole lot of trail builders including me are anxious not to see that progress reversed by grey area electric bikes.

The other big issue is user interaction.

The trails I dig are still E-bike friendly. Although maybe not for much longer. People are turning up on Ebikes, riding the main lines down then ignoring the proper (rocky) climb and riding up the footpath nearby. It's putting them in contact with walkers and while that happens a lot with normal bikes, unpowered bikes climb the hill at the speed of a brisk walk, E-bikes are gunning it up and complaints have been made. It's compounded by the extra runs Ebike riders are doing meaning the walkers see more of them too. We'll see how things pan out.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

mtb411 said:


> It's really too bad.
> 
> Mods have allowed him/her (LTZetc) to start SEVEN ebike threads in the last 3 days.


This is the "E-Bike Forum" is it not? And IF you or anyone else hates e-bikes with a vengeance, why would you even visit the ebike forum?...

JUST WONDERING?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Fix the Spade said:


> From a trail building perspective they are a liability and insurance nightmare.
> 
> We are lucky here in the UK in that 'Power Assisted Bicycle' is a legally recognised category of vehicle with has definitions and limits on motor type, power output, throttle control weight and so on. For official trails it's made life relatively easy, the land owners or more often whoever is providing the insurance simply state this trail is/is not suitable for power assisted bicycles, end of discussion. A lot of red/black trails have simply seen blanket bans on E-bikes, which I'm fine with, between the weight and the ground clearance E-bikes suck on technical trails (and yes I have tried).
> 
> ...


All good points and I have visited Europe many times over the past 30 years and do like the way folks operate there...it's not perfect, but a live and let live environment for the most part concerning biking...we could do the same in the USA, but folks do not like change and I am included as well...BUT I have really enjoyed my emtbike, and I am grateful for the rides that I have made...changed my life in many ways...and I have met some great folks I would have never met...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

mtb411 said:


> you are obsessed with crap ebikes.
> 
> Great job creating more hatred of crap ebikes with your useless spam posts and endless redundant threads! Yes!!!!!!


I think the possessed one is quite evident in this thread...lol...and actually you lie, some of these were very informing, of course folks like you didn't take time to read them, because you were to busy insuring everyone of your hate...

AND you still didn't answer the question...if you HATE ebikes sooooo much, why are you in the ebike forum?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

I guess mtb411 feels that neg repping me helps make his tortured logic more reasonable. Keep raging.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

The "Ebikes are coming so get used to it!" method of ebike advocacy ignores that in most of the country, they aren't legal on singletrack. So, while there are tons of them in Europe, like 50% in places where I have ridden, it will be interesting to see if there will indeed be enough pressure on the local level to get trails open to them. I see it here where some shops are selling them hard, but there's not many places that are or will be open to them. At this point, the land managers are just getting their codes and policies in place, so there isn't signage that clearly shows they aren't allowed, so buyers are oblivious. I see so few ebikes out, they essentially invisible. 

It's the chicken and egg thing, if you can't ride them anywhere, how many will sell? Can you sell enough to people that ride them illegally, and see if there wil be enough riders to create a community pushing for them? Or, will they piss off the land managers so much in the process and kill any chance of making it legit? 

So, yeah, they're coming, but not to everywhere.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

mtb411 said:


> I have simply stated the facts:
> 
> 1. they are not any faster uphill than a dog or jogger.


This is simply not true. I can hit the limiter (~18mph) on a Levo on a decent climb without even having it in Turbo. Why on earth would you claim this?

I guess there are some dogs that can run ~25mph uphill for a short period of time so maybe the dog part is technically true. I don't know any humans that can run uphill that fast, though.

-Walt


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Walt said:


> This is simply not true. I can hit the limiter (~18mph) on a Levo on a decent climb without even having it in Turbo. Why on earth would you claim this?
> 
> I guess there are some dogs that can run ~25mph uphill for a short period of time so maybe the dog part is technically true. I don't know any humans that can run uphill that fast, though.
> 
> -Walt


The guy in the "Every Down" shirt can...D Mc...Darren McFadden Dallas Cowboy Running Back...we were all playing in the creek on our UTV's...


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

25mph is about 11 m/s, so that's pretty much Usain Bolt... uphill, on dirt.

Sorry, your dude can't do it.

Ha, just kidding. That's a fast guy. He'd certainly run me down (unless I get a big head start) even if I'm on a bike. 

But I could drop him on an e-bike.

As an aside, posting pictures of driving your UTV in a creek bed is not going to endear you to a lot of mountain bikers. Moto folks seeing E-bikes as an end-run around moto restrictions is straight out of the anti-e-bike playbook.

-Walt


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Walt said:


> 25mph is about 11 m/s, so that's pretty much Usain Bolt... uphill, on dirt.
> 
> Sorry, your dude can't do it.
> 
> ...


This is Wilson Creek, solid limestone bottom...we are allowed there even in 4WD's...Quad's as well...any kinda MTB you will bust your ar$e, the bottom has algae/moss and slick as snot in places...

Think an ebike can do a 4.3/40?...thats fairly fast...of course I'm talking about a 250 watt PAS...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mtb411 said:


> 1. they are not any faster uphill than a dog or jogger.


Depends on the grade. I'm not as fast as a dog uphill but ~5-10% I'm faster than a jogger for sure, without a motor. LTZ posted a vid of some dude pulling a pretty mean grade @ 18mph while commentating for his review. Nobody's doing that without a motor.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Look, more power is more speed. If you really want to argue that's not the case, fine. But it's inherently ridiculous and discredits everything else you have to say, regardless of NFL players, quads and UTVs on slippery limestone, dogs, or whatever else you want to throw in. 

On a mountain bike trail, on a climb or flat, e-bikes are going to be faster, assuming the rider is trying to go fast. Period. There is zero reason to debate this.

-Walt


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

To answer the initial question by the OP, this is why:

7200W, 200km, 90kph e-Bike

It can't be denied that getting hit by a rider on a 40lb e-bike will likely cause more damage than a rider on a 25lb bike. Add to that the fact that the e-biker is likely to be moving faster than a pedal pusher. But. . . does it end there? We all know there are a lot of people that cheat at everything. Add in the e-bikers that cheat the speed control and a are likely be riding at twice the average speed of a pedal pusher. Add to that the fact the bike that have an extra 20-30lbs of batteries so the rider doesn't have to hike-a-bike off the trail. Add to that the bikes with high torque motors that can do 0-20 in the blink of an eye.

There is a limit to a pedal pusher's power that can't be modified or overcome, that keeps us all on a fairly level playing field. That said, I've had run-ins with a few KOM'ers that nearly ended badly, and can't imaging surviving incidents where they would be moving five or ten mph faster.

e-Bikes are probably coming to multi-use trails. Expecting to reason the MTB community at large into believing they are the same a pedal power, however, is not going to happen, probably ever. All the used up arguments (just as light as... don't go faster than... just as safe as... same as when hikers fought bikers...) aren't helping to promote e-bike activity on trails.

I'd like to see a lot more talk from e-bikers about commitment to the safety of others, how the could safely incorporate themselves into multi-use trains (much like how we have pushed for bike only trails, DH only trails, features to control speed on multi-use), etc. How many e-bikers have sought permission to hold an e-biker trail day as a way of promoting inclusion? I know a lot of e-bikers here a are pedal pushers as well, but from the general public... we've had plenty of occasion to kick e-bikers off our trails (not being policed yet, but not legal), while we've never had anyone approach us in any manner other than to complain about not being permitted to ride trails, and why can't we build them a trail if they can't ride the others.

Forced arguments and entitlement need to go if there is an expectation to be taken seriously.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Walt said:


> Look, more power is more speed. If you really want to argue that's not the case, fine. But it's inherently ridiculous and discredits everything else you have to say, regardless of NFL players, quads and UTVs on slippery limestone, dogs, or whatever else you want to throw in.
> 
> On a mountain bike trail, on a climb or flat, e-bikes are going to be faster, assuming the rider is trying to go fast. Period. There is zero reason to debate this.
> 
> -Walt


Depends, the rider that past me on a 29'er was blazing fast and I was on a 250W pedelec going my normal pace, steady, I really don't watch my speedometer, so I can't vouch for how fast on average, will check next time on the trail...he LEFT me in the dust and breezed by me at a race pace in smooth flowing switchbacks....made me look like I was on a 20" Kids Bike to be honest...so with all that said it depends...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Flamingtaco said:


> To answer the initial question by the OP, this is why:
> 
> 7200W, 200km, 90kph e-Bike
> 
> ...


Thoroughly agree on safety, respect, responsible riding and riders...110%...

As far as fast and heavy?

Depends, the rider that past me on a MTB 29'er was blazing fast and I was on a EMTB 250W pedelec going my normal pace, steady, I really don't watch my speedometer, so I can't vouch for how fast on average, will check next time on the trail...he LEFT me in the dust and breezed by me at a race pace in smooth flowing switchbacks....made me look like I was on a 20" Kids Bike to be honest...so with all that said it depends...


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

LTZ470 said:


> Depends, the rider that past me on a 29'er was blazing fast and I was on a 250W pedelec going my normal pace, steady, I really don't watch my speedometer, so I can't vouch for how fast on average, will check next time on the trail...he LEFT me in the dust and breezed by me at a race pace in smooth flowing switchbacks....made me look like I was on a 20" Kids Bike to be honest...so with all that said it depends...


That's because jo matter how fast you can ride on the straights...:e motorbike will not help you on switchbacks. I have experienced this....the emoto rider caught up to me like I was going backwards....only to be dropped going up the switchbacks. Once the trail straightened out, he was gone.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

mtnbikej said:


> That's because jo matter how fast you can ride on the straights...:e motorbike will not help you on switchbacks. I have experienced this....the emoto rider caught up to me like I was going backwards....only to be dropped going up the switchbacks. Once the trail straightened out, he was gone.


Yes Sir, he left me with my mouth hung open...great rider...made me appreciate his dedication and skills....


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> Depends, the rider that past me on a 29'er was blazing fast and I was on a 250W pedelec going my normal pace, steady, I really don't watch my speedometer, so I can't vouch for how fast on average, will check next time on the trail...he LEFT me in the dust and breezed by me at a race pace in smooth flowing switchbacks....made me look like I was on a 20" Kids Bike to be honest...so with all that said it depends...


Ok. Then add 250w to said rider, and imagine how much faster he'd be going. Probably 50% or more speed.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> Ok. Then add 250w to said rider, and imagine how much faster he'd be going. Probably 50% or more speed.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


In those switchbacks No Sir, he would have washed out he was at his max, for sure...skill set speed is LIMITED period...it don't matter what you use to get to that speed where you at at max skill set or machine cornering/maneuvering abilities...you are at MAX limitations...even if you use a V-8 motor...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> In those switchbacks No Sir, he would have washed out he was at his max, for sure...skill set speed is LIMITED period...it don't matter what you use to get to that speed where you at at max skill set or machine cornering/maneuvering abilities...you are at MAX limitations...even if you use a V-8 motor...


I'm guessing a knobbier set of tires would allow most riders to significantly increase cornering speed.

Let's not pretend that said XC rider/racer is probably on an XC tire, which has middling cornering capability at best. A concession to speed. With his extra 250w, he'll give up some Crr watts and add a DHF/DHR combo for safety/fun. He's now entering, cornering and exiting at higher speed than before.

Yes, equipment changes can equal cheap speed. Plenty of Enduro bros can put time into me going down hill on a 6" bike with 2.5" DH tires. Put them on a modern XC bike and they are grabbing brakes in every corner.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

If only these magical speed limiting switchbacks existed everywhere, it would be emotorbike nirvana. In the real world meanwhile........


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> I'm guessing a knobbier set of tires would allow most riders to significantly increase cornering speed.
> 
> Let's not pretend that said XC rider/racer is probably on an XC tire, which has middling cornering capability at best. A concession to speed. With his extra 250w, he'll give up some Crr watts and add a DHF/DHR combo for safety/fun. He's now entering, cornering and exiting at higher speed than before.
> 
> ...


Yes, within limits I agree, but thats true on ALL bikes regardless...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> If only these magical speed limiting switchbacks existed everywhere, it would be emotorbike nirvana. In the real world meanwhile........


Yes, on the trails I have ridden that are tighter albeit smooth dusty switchbacks, yes they are speed limited...come on over and I'll be glad to go with you...easymoney.com...and we'll let you put your cotton-tail butt where your alligator mouth is...just reply and say send me your addy...I'll PM you immediately...


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

mtb411 said:


> Large font =/= evidence.
> 
> RED font =/= evidence.
> 
> ...


It's not about the speed, etc. It's the fact that they have motors. That changes everything.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

So you're saying the an e-bike will let a rider ride to their SKILL LIMIT on flats and uphills?

Interesting. Sounds like all the climbs are now downhills...

How are we even debating this? 250W (or more) is ANOTHER HUMAN WORTH OF POWER. A human that weighs something like 10kg (or less). Of course you can go faster (if you want to).

-Walt


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Le Duke said:


> Ok. Then add 250w to said rider, and imagine how much faster he'd be going. Probably 50% or more speed.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


In half the time?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Walt said:


> So you're saying the an e-bike will let a rider ride to their SKILL LIMIT on flats and uphills?
> 
> Interesting. Sounds like all the climbs are now downhills...
> 
> ...


Power cuts out at 20 mph....then it's up to you...how fast can you get on a flat straight on your bike? only 15 mph? 20 mph? 25 mph?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Crankout said:


> It's not about the speed, etc. It's the fact that they have motors. That changes everything.


It's funny when you see or think about an ebike this must be what you imagine they are like:


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Crankout said:


> It's not about the speed, etc. It's the fact that they have motors. That changes everything.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tiretracks said:


> If only these magical speed limiting switchbacks existed everywhere, it would be emotorbike nirvana. In the real world meanwhile........


Take a bunch of people that have machines that lets them go fast on bike trails without having to develop much in the way of skills or fitness and you won't have to worry about switchbacks for long - if e-bikes become popular, they're going to blow out tight corners and switchbacks 100 times worse than all those XC guys who bought into the first few generations of 29ers did.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> Power cuts out at 20 mph....then it's up to you...how fast can you get on a flat straight on your bike? only 15 mph? 20 mph? 25 mph?


25mph is pretty attainable, and sustainable, if we're talking about a truly flat, straight, non-technical trail or fire road.

However, Walt also mentioned "uphills" and "climbs" in this statement, which you completely failed to address.

Climbing speed has a linear relationship to watts per kilogram. If my power up a climb is 350w, and my total system weight is 75kg, I'll go X mph. If I add 250w and 10kg of bike weight, I'll go 51% faster up that hill.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> 25mph is pretty attainable, and sustainable, if we're talking about a truly flat, straight, non-technical trail or fire road.
> 
> However, Walt also mentioned "uphills" and "climbs" in this statement, which you completely failed to address.
> 
> Climbing speed has a linear relationship to watts per kilogram. If my power up a climb is 350w, and my total system weight is 75kg, I'll go X mph. If I add 250w and 10kg of bike weight, I'll go 51% faster up that hill.


Physics is ignored by emotorbike proponents.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> 25mph is pretty attainable, and sustainable, if we're talking about a truly flat, straight, non-technical trail or fire road.
> 
> However, Walt also mentioned "uphills" and "climbs" in this statement, which you completely failed to address.
> 
> Climbing speed has a linear relationship to watts per kilogram. If my power up a climb is 350w, and my total system weight is 75kg, I'll go X mph. If I add 250w and 10kg of bike weight, I'll go 51% faster up that hill.


Yes, you can, but Walt didn't answer? Lol, I can barely attain 27-28 mph on smooth road surface for just a burst...and just riding at a normal pace on flat gravel 15-17 mph sustained without wind...oh yea I'm a speed demon...lol...on trails A LOT slower...

You gents are way over estimating and exaggerating...sorry, but sometimes reality trumps physics...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Physics is ignored by emotorbike proponents.


Yep, I'm sure Specialized, Bulls, BH and the rest completely ignored physics...don't you think?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes, you can, but Walt didn't answer? Lol, I can barely attain 27-28 mph on smooth road surface for just a burst...and just riding at a normal pace on flat gravel 15-17 mph sustained without wind...oh yea I'm a speed demon...lol...on trails A LOT slower...
> 
> You gents are way over estimating and exaggerating...sorry, but sometimes reality trumps physics...


Walt is a former pro XC racer, I'm a current pro XC racer, albeit not as good as Walt was back in the day.

Just because YOU can't, doesn't mean no one else can.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> 25mph is pretty attainable, and sustainable, if we're talking about a truly flat, straight, non-technical trail or fire road.


Not IME. Sustainable for how long? I guess pros could maintain that for awhile or maybe amateurs with a killer tailwind but I'd estimate we're talking about the 1 percenters here. The fastest segment on my local loop is a smooth, near straight -3% 1 mile run and the KOM is just under 25mph, and that's very hard 2 minute effort that couldn't be sustained for long by most mortals. ~17mph is more the average there for a good rider at a brisk pace.

I don't think the average rider could come anywhere near the 20mph e-bike limit on flat ground (trails) except for short sprints.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Le Duke said:


> Just because YOU can't, doesn't mean no one else can.


Pretty much, a fit rider only gets faster with more power added externally, which changes which trails can be ridden uphill and how fast.

Uphill flow trails anyone?

E-MTB Uphill-Flow-Trail in Bischofsmais

http://www.geisskopf.de/a_medien/downloads/geisskopf_sommerflyer_2016_web.pdf

"All that extra power means that mild or uphill trails quickly becomes a fast and furious test of skills. Instead of huffing, puffing and dripping with sweat, you'll now be going fast enough to have to spot berms and catch drifts even on uphill trails. Basically it's like descending all the time, and who could hate that?"

10 reasons you should try an e-MTB - BikeRadar

"Apparently Nico Vouillioz likes to train on his Lapierre pedelec because he can climb singletrack at downhill speeds, sharpening his handling skills while gaining vert. Angling your bike to deal with berms on the climb is an odd but thrilling sensation and with the right trails the ascent can approach the stoke level of downhilling."

https://nsmb.com/articles/haibike-e-bike/

"Now the 'turbo' mode is most associated with lazy riding but the reality is you are climbing so rapidly there is the tendency to go through the gears to reach the maximum pedal assist speed - about 29kph. That's pretty rapid climbing.

https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-reviews/e-bikes/e-mtb-vs-mtb-climbing-test.html


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Exactly. I can easily hit the limiter on lots of climbs on a LEVO. It literally turns climbs into descents for a fit rider trying hard. 

Now, battery life is not going to be great doing that. But that's not the point here. 

-Walt


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

mtb411 said:


> LTZ, hats off. You are truly a trollmaster of reverse psychology.
> 
> You pose as an emtb displomat and ambassador when in fact you truly despise emtb's and therefore SPAM the ebike section with mulitple threads to stir up as much hate as possible.
> 
> ...


Your welcome, you and zooey should get together, brilliant minds think alike...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Harryman said:


> Pretty much, a fit rider only gets faster with more power added externally, which changes which trails can be ridden uphill and how fast.
> 
> Uphill flow trails anyone?
> 
> ...


18 mph cool...


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Harryman said:


> http://www.geisskopf.de/a_medien/downloads/geisskopf_sommerflyer_2016_web.pdf
> 
> "All that extra power means that mild or uphill trails quickly becomes a fast and furious test of skills. Instead of huffing, puffing and dripping with sweat, you'll now be going fast enough to have to spot berms and catch drifts even on uphill trails. Basically it's like descending all the time, and who could hate that?"
> 
> https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-reviews/e-bikes/e-mtb-vs-mtb-climbing-test.html


Yeah, who wants to huff, puff and drip with sweat! That's so gauche!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

From what I've seen it seems like areas with sparse traffic would not be an issue with 250w PAS bikes. Congested areas could very well be an issue. How about ebike SPECIFIC trails and or posted up/down speed limits? I personally wouldn't want the speed limit thing as I'm sure most of us like to go fast on the downs, if of course the trail scene is "clear."

Enforced speed limits are the only way you could monitor the wattage issue. But, as said you can only go so fast on a given trail regardless. 

I've always enjoyed bicycling and have added a few Ebikes for strictly fun factor.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> From what I've seen it seems like areas with sparse traffic would not be an issue with 250w PAS bikes. Congested areas could very well be an issue. How about ebike SPECIFIC trails and or posted up/down speed limits? I personally wouldn't want the speed limit thing as I'm sure most of us like to go fast on the downs, if of course the trail scene is "clear."
> 
> Enforced speed limits are the only way you could monitor the wattage issue. But, as said you can only go so fast on a given trail regardless.
> 
> I've always enjoyed bicycling and have added a few Ebikes for strictly fun factor.


Exclusion works as well.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Gutch said:


> From what I've seen it seems like areas with sparse traffic would not be an issue with 250w PAS bikes. Congested areas could very well be an issue. How about ebike SPECIFIC trails and or posted up/down speed limits? I personally wouldn't want the speed limit thing as I'm sure most of us like to go fast on the downs, if of course the trail scene is "clear."
> 
> Enforced speed limits are the only way you could monitor the wattage issue. But, as said you can only go so fast on a given trail regardless.
> 
> I've always enjoyed bicycling and have added a few Ebikes for strictly fun factor.


I could see ebike specific trails in a place with a substantial emtb community. Most trails get built to solve problems, either there's demand for a new trail, there's an existing social that needs to be replaced, or a trail long planned that hasn't yet been built. In the US where there's not much or really no demand for emtbs, I doubt you could convince a land manager to build or allow a new trail to benefit a very small user group. Changing existing trails to emtb only would never happen, just imagine the torches and pitchforks? I think you'll only see emtbs legal on some existing and not on others for the foreseeable future on public lands.

Speed limits are always the most logical, but you'd have to develop and pay for the infrastructure to enforce them. I'd expect zero supprt from the cycling community on that one. It would make the hikers happy though.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Thank you for the educated response, Harryman, and the "typical" response, TireTracks. Street Ebikes are growing very rapidly in my area with all sorts of Rentals for bike paths. Brick and mortar shops are seeing profit dollars in both sales and rentals, which IMO is good. They are good people.
I could see some spill over to the emtb rental / sales thus creating some pressure for movement on possibly emtb specific trails or bike parks. Possibly the downhill parks adding more singletrack so I don't have to sit on my backside up the chairlift, and pedal up- rip down.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I think ebike only bike parks are a no brainer, where you could tailor the trails to an emtb strengths, with no worry about restrictions. It would be easiest on private, but I wouldn't be surprised to see people applying for permits on USFS/BLM, but that is a long process.

Like this: 




Home - Ecobike ADV - Guided E-Bike Adventures


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm unclear on why you'd ride those things on trails like that when you could just ride a moto. They look sketchy as hell at those speeds. I'd want footpegs and serious boots at the very least!

-Walt


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Walt said:


> I'm unclear on why you'd ride those things on trails like that when you could just ride a moto. They look sketchy as hell at those speeds. I'd want footpegs and serious boots at the very least!
> 
> -Walt


Well, they are still fun going downhill, albeit not as much as a normal mtb. My thoughts would be more singletrack with more uphills not being an issue. I've ridden all over a ski resort on my Levo- wicked fun.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

No, no, watch the video. They aren't pedaling, at all. Looks like 30+mph too. Nothing like your LEVO!

-Walt


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^ that noise would drive me crazy. I agree a ktm would be way more fun. Any bike speeds off-road over 25 is reaching craziness. 45 on road is plenty fast for me. (That's up a 10% grade of course!)


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> The eMTB Controversy: Why do mountain bikers and their associations reject eBikes? - MountainZone


Because they have motors.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Moe Ped said:


> Because they have motors.


I think it's pure jealousy myself...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> I think it's pure jealousy myself...


You would............


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Watched the first couple of minutes. Kind of funny, and sad, that the person who was about to ride that bike didn't understand mountain bike gears. 

And, really, reinforces the point that other people made. You're going to see a lot of people get way, way over their heads on "bicycle" rides.

But, the guys in the video also very closely the NorCal/Front Range bro culture that just won't die. They have the lingo down pat. "Nimble" and "flickable" and all sorts of other meaningless jargon being used.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> I think it's pure jealousy myself...


Of people you can't keep up with riding bikes without motors?


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Cornfield said:


> View attachment 1135191


I just saw this and laughed my *ss off!


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Was out on my e-bike last night trying some fast climbs (paved road- grade 10%). Best I could get out of 750w was 18 mph (29 kph) My bike limits out with both speed or cadence depending on which is higher. The more you pedal the less assist you get. When you get over about 90 rpm cadence the controller starts to reduce current. Likewise as the upper speed (20 mph or 32 kph). Regardless of limits, I have the bike programed to begin reducing current when 80 % of speed or cadence is reached so, the more you pedal the less assist you get. Max speed was achieved in third cog from the highest gear and soft pedaling. The bike will reach the full 20 mph on a paved 5% grade. 
E bikes can be limited for off road use so they are not adding a lot of extra power so that strong rider could achieve over 1000 watts for a high speed hill climb but will aid a weak rider unable to provide enough power to balance. 
Without assist I can achieve about 250 watts for a very short portion of a ride. I produce more like 100-140 watts for the most part. That is enough for my light Stumpy on rides not exceeding 12-15 miles. It's not enough to ride a fat bike on sand or snow trails and I don't have enough endurance to ride long mountain bike trails.
My bike pedals very well without assist. I would say that 50% of the time I am not getting any assist from the electrics at all. 
I have actually gotten in better shape with the e-bike/regular bike combination than I ever did with just the regular bike so I am not real apologetic about cheating.
As far as advocacy is concerned we are all dumb. We seem to want to segregate into well defined cliques instead of truly identifying the real enemy of access to off road. E-bikers are not the enemy, mountain bikes are not the enemy, hikers are not the enemy, bird watchers are not the enemy, equestrians are not the enemy. The enemy are watermelons hiding behind well funded environmental political Pac's. They have gobs of money but not high voting numbers. They use money to make themselves look high in numbers and pit use against one another. United we stand, divided we fall.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

You are not the enemy! Just a different category of trail user, IMHO.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

JACKL said:


> You are not the enemy! Just a different category of trail user, IMHO.


Exactly

18mph on 10% grade? That's no longer "assist".


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

PierreR said:


> Was out on my e-bike last night trying some fast climbs (paved road- grade 10%). Best I could get out of 750w was 18 mph (29 kph) My bike limits out with both speed or cadence depending on which is higher. The more you pedal the less assist you get. When you get over about 90 rpm cadence the controller starts to reduce current. Likewise as the upper speed (20 mph or 32 kph). Regardless of limits, I have the bike programed to begin reducing current when 80 % of speed or cadence is reached so, the more you pedal the less assist you get. Max speed was achieved in third cog from the highest gear and soft pedaling. The bike will reach the full 20 mph on a paved 5% grade.
> E bikes can be limited for off road use so they are not adding a lot of extra power so that strong rider could achieve over 1000 watts for a high speed hill climb but will aid a weak rider unable to provide enough power to balance.
> Without assist I can achieve about 250 watts for a very short portion of a ride. I produce more like 100-140 watts for the most part. That is enough for my light Stumpy on rides not exceeding 12-15 miles. It's not enough to ride a fat bike on sand or snow trails and I don't have enough endurance to ride long mountain bike trails.
> My bike pedals very well without assist. I would say that 50% of the time I am not getting any assist from the electrics at all.
> ...


I sure am glad that these anecdotal examples keep getting posted.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

18mph on a 10% grade is totally insane fast as compared to human (even pro human) power. 

Just FYI. I agree that low power bikes programmed to cut out from 10-15mph gradually would be ideal. The reality is that's not what's for sale, and what's for sale now isn't as capable as what we'll see in the future.

-Walt


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Walt said:


> 18mph on a 10% grade is totally insane fast as compared to human (even pro human) power.
> 
> Just FYI. I agree that low power bikes programmed to cut out from 10-15mph gradually would be ideal. The reality is that's not what's for sale, and what's for sale now isn't as capable as what we'll see in the future.
> 
> -Walt


It was a paved road, aired up tires, I had a good run at it and no wind. Nothing like 20-25 mph that some here are saying. 
Maybe I should go measure it. I was taking a guess at 10% because I know we have paved roads around NE Ohio up to 17% grades. Quick calculations suggest to me that it might be less.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> You would............


Yep, can't handle it can you...lol...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

I need some generous downhill to get to 27 mph on mine...flat gravel road I can sustain 13-17 mph for 20 miles when I am decent shape, dependent on wind of course....I can't ride near that on trails especially technical tight switchbacks...no railing corners for me...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> Yep, can't handle it can you...lol...


Don't kid yourself


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

If you don't even know the grade, why on earth did you post?

Look, more power is more speed. If you're completely feeble (not a judgement, some of us are) then that will mean 7mph instead of 4mph, or whatever, and it's not an issue.

The problem is not the 75 year olds out for a toodle. It's that people who want to go fast can use extra power to go *really damn fast* to the point where it's quite dangerous on 2-way trails. 

-W


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Don't kid yourself


Definitely not kidding...serious as a heart attack Mr Tiretread...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Walt said:


> If you don't even know the grade, why on earth did you post?
> 
> Look, more power is more speed. If you're completely feeble (not a judgement, some of us are) then that will mean 7mph instead of 4mph, or whatever, and it's not an issue.
> 
> ...


Yes Sir Walt it could happen, but to be honest I can't see it except for a few isolated incidents maybe...to most folks that are out on the trails respect is a two-way street...

"Worrying is like paying a debt we do not owe"...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes Sir Walt it could happen, but to be honest I can't see it except for a few isolated incidents maybe...to most folks that are out on the trails respect is a two-way street...
> 
> "Worrying is like paying a debt we do not owe"...


"Respect is a two way street."

So, a guy going 25mph up a climb on a 3,000w e-bike is "respecting" other users? Really?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

PierreR said:


> It was a paved road, aired up tires, I had a good run at it and no wind. Nothing like 20-25 mph that some here are saying.
> Maybe I should go measure it. I was taking a guess at 10% because I know we have paved roads around NE Ohio up to 17% grades. Quick calculations suggest to me that it might be less.


There's some pretty good bicycle performance prediction spreadsheets out there; to see 18 mph on a 10% grade you'd need to be pedaling at 250 watts (plus the bike's 750 watts); your bike would weigh 45 lbs and you'd weigh 140 lbs suited-up. Were these conditions met?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> "Respect is a two way street."
> 
> So, a guy going 25mph up a climb on a 3,000w e-bike is "respecting" other users? Really?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Lol...I think you are a bit out of touch with reality....we're talking 250 watt ebikes that only assist to 20 mph....then you are own your own....get real....folks are WAY over exaggerating the whole scenario...to the point of "The Sky is Falling"...The Sky Is Falling"...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> Lol...I think you are a bit out of touch with reality....we're talking 250 watt ebikes that only assist to 20 mph....then you are own your own....get real....folks are WAY over exaggerating the whole scenario...to the point of "The Sky is Falling"...The Sky Is Falling"...


Reality? The legal limit is 750w in many areas. And, they can be easily modified. Or built from scratch to have much, much more power.

I got passed like I was standing still while doing intervals on my road bike by a guy on an e-bike last year. I was going nearly 30mph and he was probably going 40mph+.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> Lol...I think you are a bit out of touch with reality....we're talking 250 watt ebikes that only assist to 20 mph....then you are own your own....get real....folks are WAY over exaggerating the whole scenario...to the point of "The Sky is Falling"...The Sky Is Falling"...


Are you in Europe?

Maybe you're talking 250 watt ebikes but the "get real" reality is 750 watts plus.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

The respect should first be given to the land manager and what usage allowances he/she have put in place. And to the people who worked years getting permission to construct the trails, built the trails and maintain the trails.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> I sure am glad that these anecdotal examples keep getting posted.


That makes two of us. These idiots don't seem to understand the bigger picture. If they screw us on access though, I'm gonna be pissed!

My hope and prediction is that they get lumped in with the motor crowd. The mentality certainly seems the same, and the anti motor groups will certainly use these types of posts against them.

And before any of you candy azz ebikers start whimpering about being old, fat, decrepit or whatever, I ride a DR650 motorcycle. But you know what? I keep it OFF THE TRAILS!


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

BumpityBump said:


> That makes two of us. These idiots don't seem to understand the bigger picture. If they screw us on access though, I'm gonna be pissed!
> 
> My hope and prediction is that they get lumped in with the motor crowd. The mentality certainly seems the same, and the anti motor groups will certainly use these types of posts against them.
> 
> And before any of you candy azz ebikers start whimpering about being old, fat, decrepit or whatever, I ride a DR650 motorcycle. But you know what? I keep it OFF THE TRAILS!


Lump a motorized vehicle in with the motor crowd? What kind of crazy thinking is that?! :eekster:


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> I ride a DR650 motorcycle. But you know what? I keep it OFF THE TRAILS!


Why would you buy an enduro and not ride it on the trails? If not, why not just buy a street bike instead of an enduro?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> Why would you buy an enduro and not ride it on the trails? If not, why not just buy a street bike instead of an enduro?


I'm guessing that he rides moto-legal trails when he goes off roading on his off road motorcycle...

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Moe Ped said:


> Are you in Europe?
> 
> Maybe you're talking 250 watt ebikes but the "get real" reality is 750 watts plus.


Nope USA....

Specialized Turbo Levo Electric MTB with Brose motor | Ebike portal
"We guess that they're about the power output or some structural alteration to better fit Specialized frames.
Anyway, these are 250W motors with a 25km/h maximum speed, with three levels of assistance (not many for offroad cycling in our opinion; 4 or 5 levels would have allowed for a more precise control of power and range).
Of course, the power output is managed by a torque sensor: to put it simply, the more the cyclist pushes on pedals the more the motor will help him (click here for more info about pedalling sensors).
The motor weighs 3,4kg, it provides a maximum torque of 90Nm and it has a 530W peak power."


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> Why would you buy an enduro and not ride it on the trails? If not, why not just buy a street bike instead of an enduro?


USFS/BLM roads. You wouldn't understand that which further validates that you have no clue when it comes to access issues in the western U.S.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> I'm guessing that he rides moto-legal trails when he goes off roading on his off road motorcycle...
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Did you ever see the movie The Incredibles? If so, substitute "trails" for "capes".


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> USFS/BLM roads. You wouldn't understand that which further validates that you have no clue when it comes to access issues in the western U.S.


No Sir, I have ridden MANY places out in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, and Colorado...lived in Arizona for several years...loved it...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

From what I've seen, LTZ has a long history of off-road motorsports, I believe his username is a reference to a modified quad atv motor(?) and he was originally into modifying eBikes for more power, at least the idea of doing so. 

So LTZ, you say you have learned to appreciate the slower ride and sold all of your fast quads. May I ask what brought this on? Why have you lost your desire for more speed and power? I really don't know much about powered atv, are there a lot of trails for these types of vehicles where you are? Have they been losing access to trails or has it pretty much stayed the same?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

chazpat said:


> Have they been losing access to trails or has it pretty much stayed the same?


He's from Texas, they have very little public land there.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> From what I've seen, LTZ has a long history of off-road motorsports, I believe his username is a reference to a modified quad atv motor(?) and he was originally into modifying eBikes for more power, at least the idea of doing so.
> 
> So LTZ, you say you have learned to appreciate the slower ride and sold all of your fast quads. May I ask what brought this on? Why have you lost your desire for more speed and power? I really don't know much about powered atv, are there a lot of trails for these types of vehicles where you are? Have they been losing access to trails or has it pretty much stayed the same?


No Sir, there are plenty...you can still ride all kinds of places here, even in my neighborhood, along the creek for miles...there is Waynoka, OK, Bulcher, TX, Kermit, TX, Wolf Pen Gap Ar, Broken Bow, OK, Red River, TX, Gilmer, TX, Somerville, TX, Mescalero, NM, I can go on and on and on...

Many have increased in acreage, and many more have been formed...ATV's and UTV's are a big seller in the southern US...

Still ride my Polaris RZR UTV...take all the neighborhood kiddos riding and swimming on the creek...it's great for photography trips as well...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> Well he's not too savvy about off road motorsports if he doesn't understand the most typical use of a 400 pound dual sport motorcycle. It's not trail riding. His assumption that there are only 2 motorcycle types (trail and street) is laughable and extremely ignorant. I suspect he likes to falsely inflate his knowledge/experience on any forum he posts on.


Nope, an enduro would be great as well for OHV such as Rainbow Falls OHV, Colorado...it connects to Rampart Range Road and there are probably 500 miles of trails all through that area at least...probably more, would be easy enough to camp at Rainbow Falls and ride enduro and explore the area as a whole...

Even went through Rainbow Falls OHV in my non-lifted Jeep...stock suspension...all-terrain tires, perfect for your "Dual Sport" Enduro...

You boys must not get around the US too much, you all seem a bit isolated, that includes your knowledge of places to ride as well...for lack of a better word I'll use bump's...ya'll are clueless...

I can still deadlift 400 lbs fairly easily, if I had some good knees...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enduro_motorcycle

Enduro motorcycles closely resemble motocross, or "MX" bikes (upon which they are often based).[1] They may have special features such as oversized gas tanks, engines tuned for reliability and longevity, sump protectors, and more durable (and heavier) components. Enduro bikes combine the long-travel suspension of an off-road motocross bike with engines that are reliable and durable over long distances, and may be fitted with oversize gas tanks for adequate range. *Some enduro bikes have street-legal features such as headlights and quiet mufflers to enable them to use public roadways*. The engine of an enduro bike is usually a single cylinder 2-stroke between 125 cc and 360 cc, or *4-stroke between 195 and 650 cc.*

They were called Enduro's in my younger days....street legal motocycle designed for offroad use as well...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> No Sir, there are plenty...you can still ride all kinds of places here, even in my neighborhood, along the creek for miles...there is Waynoka, OK, Bulcher, TX, Kermit, TX, Wolf Pen Gap Ar, Broken Bow, OK, Red River, TX, Gilmer, TX, Somerville, TX, Mescalero, NM, I can go on and on and on...
> 
> Many have increased in acreage, and many more have been formed...ATV's and UTV's are a big seller in the southern US...
> 
> Still ride my Polaris RZR UTV...take all the neighborhood kiddos riding and swimming on the creek...it's great for photography trips as well...


So why do you find the need to ride a motorized bike on non-motorized trails then? It sounds like you have plenty of places to ride but you're just greedy to be honest.

And I am in the Southern US, they aren't all that big of sellers here as there aren't that many places to ride them. The South is a big, diverse area.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> So why do you find the need to ride a motorized bike on non-motorized trails then? It sounds like you have plenty of places to ride but you're just greedy to be honest.
> 
> And I am in the Southern US, they aren't all that big of sellers here as there aren't that many places to ride them. The South is a big, diverse area.


Sure way to get killed riding in one of the ATV/UTV/Motorcycle areas...we ride bike trails and we are quite, orderly, never have had any issues of trail rage, jealousy, or even chastised to be honest...what difference does it make when no one cares and you ride within the same limitations as all others, even slower?...like I stated before you gents are looking for "boogers"...on a witch hunt, when there's not one...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Sure way to get killed riding in one of the ATV/UTV/Motorcycle areas...


For sure. 100% guaranteed injured or seriously killed.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

So I guess motorized bikes should ride in one area and non-motorized should…

I'm sure the ATV/UTV/Motorcyclist would love it if groups of mountain bikers start riding on their trails then. They'd pass politely and safely and they wouldn't complain. Yes, I know that is not a 100% fair comparison but I think it deserves a little thought. As I said previously, if eBikes become common where I ride, they will greatly change the mountain biking experience.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

chazpat said:


> So I guess motorized bikes should ride in one area and non-motorized should&#8230;
> 
> I'm sure the ATV/UTV/Motorcyclist would love it if groups of mountain bikers start riding on their trails then. They'd pass politely and safely and they wouldn't complain. Yes, I know that is not a 100% fair comparison but I think it deserves a little thought. As I said previously, if eBikes become common where I ride, they will greatly change the mountain biking experience.


Yes sir, instant a**hole just add motor. Been amply proved out over the past century.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enduro_motorcycle
> 
> Enduro motorcycles closely resemble motocross, or "MX" bikes (upon which they are often based).[1] They may have special features such as oversized gas tanks, engines tuned for reliability and longevity, sump protectors, and more durable (and heavier) components. Enduro bikes combine the long-travel suspension of an off-road motocross bike with engines that are reliable and durable over long distances, and may be fitted with oversize gas tanks for adequate range. *Some enduro bikes have street-legal features such as headlights and quiet mufflers to enable them to use public roadways*. The engine of an enduro bike is usually a single cylinder 2-stroke between 125 cc and 360 cc, or *4-stroke between 195 and 650 cc.*
> 
> They were called Enduro's in my younger days....street legal motocycle designed for offroad use as well...


As I said, you clearly don't understand the DR650. Nice job posting wikipedia though.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> As I said, you clearly don't understand the DR650. Nice job posting wikipedia though.


No misunderstanding on my part....been riding them for over 40 years....


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> No misunderstanding on my part....been riding them for over 40 years....


You don't seem to be able to distinguish between lighter and heavier bikes and the uses therein.

Fyi, the DR650 wasn't produced until 1990. So, yeah, whatever liar.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

The eMTB Controversy: Why do mountain bikers and their associations reject eBikes The real life answer They don't just because on this forum there is lots of e hate , its not what I have found riding my e bike for the last 5 yrs on many diff trails in many diff states . For sure I have encountered some e hate I have had at least one shop turn me away but its rare that I get any real hate from other Mt bikers , most comments are wow that's freaking cool! When I was a racer we motocrossers would not have anything to do with the quad guys the same thing when I was a Hang4 Hangglider pilot we wouldn't let the Pargliders use our launch at Hennsons and so it goes .


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

rider95 said:


> The eMTB Controversy: Why do mountain bikers and their associations reject eBikes The real life answer They don't just because on this forum there is lots of e hate , its not what I have found riding my e bike for the last 5 yrs on many diff trails in many diff states . For sure I have encountered some e hate I have had at least one shop turn me away but its rare that I get any real hate from other Mt bikers , most comments are wow that's freaking cool! When I was a racer we motocrossers would not have anything to do with the quad guys the same thing when I was a Hang4 Hangglider pilot we wouldn't let the Pargliders use our launch at Hennsons and so it goes .


Those of us that have been working on access issues for decades understand that it is the precedent set by allowing motorized travel on non-motorized trails. It's pretty simple really. Unless you are a newcomer.

P.S. please clearly elucidate your point.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rider95 said:


> When I was a racer we motocrossers would not have anything to do with the quad guys the same thing when I was a Hang4 Hangglider pilot we wouldn't let the Pargliders use our launch at Hennsons and so it goes .


So besides the fact that you can't comprehend the issue(s) you're a complete hypocrite. No surprise there.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

rider95 said:


> The eMTB Controversy: Why do mountain bikers and their associations reject eBikes The real life answer They don't just because on this forum there is lots of e hate , its not what I have found riding my e bike for the last 5 yrs on many diff trails in many diff states . For sure I have encountered some e hate I have had at least one shop turn me away but its rare that I get any real hate from other Mt bikers , most comments are wow that's freaking cool! When I was a racer we motocrossers would not have anything to do with the quad guys the same thing when I was a Hang4 Hangglider pilot we wouldn't let the Pargliders use our launch at Hennsons and so it goes .


Due to terrible grammar and nonsensical text this is an invalid post.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I really do think rider95 is drunk a good portion of every day. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Mookie said:


> Due to terrible grammar and nonsensical text this is an invalid post.



View attachment 1136032




Le Duke said:


> I really do think rider95 is drunk a good portion of every day.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk



View attachment 1136033


Not that I care for what rider95's opinion is, I think you two could come up with a better argument.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Ooh yeah, time to go pop some corn!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

zooey said:


> View attachment 1136032


Nah, it's not just the grammar. I have no clue what rider95 is trying to say a good portion of the time. It's word vomit.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> Nah, it's not just the grammar. I have no clue what rider95 is trying to say a good portion of the time. It's word vomit.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


This was the first post of his I had ever read. "Word vomit" is a good description.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Have to agree, most people here at least make the attempt to communicate in a somewhat articulate and cohesive manner.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

zooey said:


> View attachment 1136032
> 
> 
> View attachment 1136033
> ...


LOL, this is stock material. If one wants to make a persuasive argument then one must make an intelligent argument. If you sound like an idiot then I assume you're an idiot.


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## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

The intelligent have the power to adapt. Those that choose not to adapt, despite having the power to, are merely lazy. I'm more curious about those who can't read that quoted post of his. Doesn't seem that hard.

If you label the person an idiot, what exactly does that do for you? Make it so you have the license to make fun of them without remorse, and be able to reject them at a whim, in case you're done toying with them?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

zooey said:


> The intelligent have the power to adapt. Those that choose not to adapt, despite having the power to, are merely lazy. I'm more curious about those who can't read that quoted post of his. Doesn't seem that hard.


Maybe the intelligent could adapt and learn how to make a legible post in the first place FFS. This is a public forum, at least try to post in complete sentences and thoughts if you expect anyone to give any credence to your post. Is that asking too much? And refer to your own sig. line before you take a condescending tone with people that probably forgot more than you'll ever learn.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

The OP The eMTB Controversy: Why do mountain bikers and their associations reject eBikes Just pointing out most trail users including other Mt bikers and park rangers mangers don't hate e bikes like we find on this site . This is what I have found not to say it may be diff were you are . Trail access none of us wants to get a trail shutdown and yet you and your strav times scare the hikers , horse ppl, fishermen , Our local MT bike trail was shutdown because a MT biker got hurt on a wooden banked wall turn you know the kind that you have too hit @ 30 to stay on it !!! After riding a e bike for the last 5 yrs you would be very surprised to see how I use my bike and the way it is safer for the other users of the park . SO no e bikes are not hated by everyone


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

rider95 said:


> The OP The eMTB Controversy: Why do mountain bikers and their associations reject eBikes Just pointing out most trail users including other Mt bikers and park rangers mangers don't hate e bikes like we find on this site . This is what I have found not to say it may be diff were you are . Trail access none of us wants to get a trail shutdown and yet you and your strav times scare the hikers , horse ppl, fishermen , Our local MT bike trail was shutdown because a MT biker got hurt on a wooden banked wall turn you know the kind that you have too hit @ 30 to stay on it !!! After riding a e bike for the last 5 yrs you would be very surprised to see how I use my bike and the way it is safer for the other users of the park . SO no e bikes are not hated by everyone


Just one question. WTF is a Park Ranger Manger?

Not to mention the rest of your babble. This post is way worse than your last one. Get coherent for christ sakes!


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

rider95 said:


> The OP The eMTB Controversy: Why do mountain bikers and their associations reject eBikes Just pointing out most trail users including other Mt bikers and park rangers mangers don't hate e bikes like we find on this site . This is what I have found not to say it may be diff were you are . Trail access none of us wants to get a trail shutdown and yet you and your strav times scare the hikers , horse ppl, fishermen , Our local MT bike trail was shutdown because a MT biker got hurt on a wooden banked wall turn you know the kind that you have too hit @ 30 to stay on it !!! After riding a e bike for the last 5 yrs you would be very surprised to see how I use my bike and the way it is safer for the other users of the park . SO no e bikes are not hated by everyone


Same here many are very curious, but I have never ran into a hater.....except here...lol...


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

BumpityBump said:


> Just one question. WTF is a Park Ranger Manger?
> 
> Not to mention the rest of your babble. This post is way worse than your last one. Get coherent for christ sakes!


Are you not entertained!? lol!

*insert Gladiator meme here*


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## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> Maybe the intelligent could adapt and learn how to make a legible post in the first place FFS. This is a public forum, at least try to post in complete sentences and thoughts if you expect anyone to give any credence to your post. Is that asking too much?


Looks like tiretracks put you on the spot to redeem yourself, rider95.



tiretracks said:


> And refer to your own sig. line before you take a condescending tone with people that probably forgot more than you'll ever learn.


*sarcasm* It makes perfect logical sense to not criticize those who have probably forgotten more than I'll ever learn. This goes for all, including Rupert Murdoch (founder of Fox News). Yes, I shall take this wisdom to heart and not criticize such well experienced elders (also including ruthless dictators). Nor shall I suggest that they stop being lazy and use their intelligence, as that could be a way to solve the problem in a better way...

BTW, which part of my sig tells me to do this? I'm interested in learning why people act the way they do... not gonna get the kind of info I want if I simply watch, and not be a voice of reason. *shrug*


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

LOL funny **** I must have really gotten to you? lol


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

zooey said:


> The intelligent have the power to adapt. Those that choose not to adapt, despite having the power to, are merely lazy. I'm more curious about those who can't read that quoted post of his. Doesn't seem that hard.
> 
> If you label the person an idiot, what exactly does that do for you? Make it so you have the license to make fun of them without remorse, and be able to reject them at a whim, in case you're done toying with them?


OMG, you're arguing that intelligent people need to dumb down to understand what the idiots are saying. That's not the case. Intelligent people can understand the arguments just fine. The problem is that inarticulate posts suggest a lack of understanding of the issue at hand by the author of the post.

You are making my day.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> LOL funny **** I must have really gotten to you? lol


The level of ignorance you display sometimes is simply astounding. Carry on.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

rider95 said:


> LOL funny **** I must have really gotten to you? lol


using "lol" twice does not help your cause


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

rider95 said:


> LOL funny **** I must have really gotten to you? lol


Yep, they like to dish it out, but they can't take it...lol...kinda like Little Johnny's dog...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> using "lol" twice does not help your cause


Actually makes complete sense, we are laughing the WHOLE time we are responding to you bunch of self-righteous clowns...


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

BumpityBump said:


> This was the first post of his I had ever read. "Word vomit" is a good description.


He's legendary


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 is a liar.



chazpat; Hi LTZ470 said:


> https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...LTZ470#p749220[/URL]
> LTZ470 is asking about a 48V controller and 48V battery being swapped in on a bike with a 36V controller and battery to "over clock" the 350W motor (that's already more watts than allowed, right?), saying "this would give it plenty of power and considerable more distance would it not?" I know "overclocking" was something computer users used to do, telling the controller to run the chip at a higher speed than it was set to run at, with the intention of gaining higher speed. He did say "the 48V Rear Wheel motor (DD) is a direct swap as well but it probably wouldn't be as suited for off road and hills as well as the geared Dapu 350W?" so he is talking about this for off-road use. Why would someone want to overclock an eBike for MTB trail use?
> 
> He also talked about overclocking here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...47011&start=75
> ...


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

rider95 said:


> Just pointing out most trail users including other Mt bikers and park rangers mangers don't hate e bikes like we find on this site .


Is it only on this site? I just went over to Ridemonkey and immediately detected some anti-ebike threads, but haven't looked elsewhere.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Dam even Harrys picking on me What was that about staying on Topic ? and the personal attacks I guess this is no longer a E bike forum


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

rider95 said:


> Dam even Harrys picking on me What was that about staying on Topic ? and the personal attacks I guess this is no longer a E bike forum


Sorry, Rider95, I been riding them fairly hard...like I said before they love dishing it out but can't take it...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> Sorry, Rider95, I been riding them fairly hard...like I said before they love dishing it out but can't take it...


Take what? You haven't proved or dispelled anything. Anything that you have to say is tainted, you are not to be trusted or believed. You're a simple blowhard that got caught out.


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## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Can make a hypothesis about how some people have something that goes beyond a peeve, regarding grammatical mistakes. Telling you and me who's boss, whose judgement on grammar has the power to derail topics.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

This just in: http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/e-mtbikes-faster-than-mtb-brendan-fairclough-1044765.html


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Take what? You haven't proved or dispelled anything. Anything that you have to say is tainted, you are not to be trusted or believed. You're a simple blowhard that got caught out.


You can't handle or take it Tiretread, just because you and Bump are ignorant about ebikes don't mean the rest of the world is...lol...like I said to bump I could rake you two's ignorance about ebikes and motors off with a garden rake...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> This just in: http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/e-mtbikes-faster-than-mtb-brendan-fairclough-1044765.html


Thanks Cornfield, grabbing some popcorn...no wonder you have corn fields you must make tons off MTBR...


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I have been gone not been on here better things to spend my time on and log on to find this new members and a old one taking this site to new lows , nothing good to post now been reduce to name calling and personal attacks WTF . I work to inform and to show how E bikes can be a positive thing for parks and clubs I am coming to a trail near you soon .


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

zooey said:


> Can make a hypothesis about how some people have something that goes beyond a peeve, regarding grammatical mistakes. Telling you and me who's boss, whose judgement on grammar has the power to derail topics.


Seems plausible...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

rider95 said:


> I have been gone not been on here better things to spend my time on and log on to find this new members and a old one taking this site to new lows , nothing good to post now been reduce to name calling and personal attacks WTF . I work to inform and to show how E bikes can be a positive thing for parks and clubs I am coming to a trail near you soon .


Awesome, may the eforce be with you...


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## baddest grandpa (Oct 16, 2016)

These toys should be banned outright, you can see by the posts of these so called ecyclists that they have no concern for anyone but themselves, rules be damned.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

baddest grandpa said:


> These toys should be banned outright, you can see by the posts of these so called ecyclists that they have no concern for anyone but themselves, rules be damned.


Well tell me were your fav trail is and I will come and ride it we can get a beer together!


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Not at all when talking to clueless folks that are ignorant to the actual power of ebikes...not at all...why would I be embarrassed? Now a name like "baddest grandpa"? That's embarrassing before you even start your driveling...


We aren't just talking about "the actual power of ebikes", as if that was the only issue with them...


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Cornfield said:


> We aren't just talking about "the actual power of ebikes", as if that was the only issue with them...


He doesn't get logical debate, just keeps changing up the subject matter every time he is outed and proven wrong. Even when it's documented he is lying. That's his shtick.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

That's why e bikes are allowed on the trails because of no issues we stop for hikers and the horse ppl love us and no need to charge the hill to carry speed , with a e bike the trails are safer for all the trail users . So no we are not hated at all


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

rider95 said:


> That's why e bikes are allowed on the trails because of no issues we stop for hikers and the horse ppl love us and no need to charge the hill to carry speed , with a e bike the trails are safer for all the trail users . So no we are not hated at all


*Edit: I'm quoting Chazpat from another thread to show how I really feel. Please note that this was directed at LTZ.



chazpat said:


> And now let me tell you something that is probably going to surprise you: I hope you are right. I hope your illegal trail riding isn't doing any harm. I hope you have no plans or desire to modify your bike for more speed and power. I hope that eBikes do not become an issue where I ride or wherever my fellow riders who enjoy mountain biking ride. I really hope eBikes don't lead to the closure of mountain bike trails and/or the prevention of new mountain bikes trails/access. And you can say "nope, my riding won't cause this". But if there are many likeminded people that follow your example, these things very well might happen. This sense you have of "it's ok for me to do it" will not serve you, or us, well in the end.


*I do think that pic was funny, lol!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

No cant say I do Cornhole did that hurt??


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

rider95 said:


> That's why e bikes are allowed on the trails because of no issues we stop for hikers and the horse ppl love us and no need to charge the hill to carry speed , with a e bike the trails are safer for all the trail users . So no we are not hated at all


I give out free snickerdoodles to everyone I meet on the trail, so I think I have you covered. (cookies, not dogs!)


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

BumpityBump said:


> Just one question. WTF is a Park Ranger Manger?
> 
> Not to mention the rest of your babble. This post is way worse than your last one. Get coherent for christ sakes!


you don't know what a park ranger or manger is??? well this explans a lot


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> We aren't just talking about "the actual power of ebikes", as if that was the only issue with them...


Oh yea we are, it's the ebike "cheaters" speed versus the purist speed...thats the REAL debate...with you guys anyway...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

rider95 said:


> you don't know what a park ranger or manger is??? well this explans a lot


They are taking your misspelling of "Manager" and trying to use that to further their agenda, nothing more, nothing less...


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Wow, and I thought all the fun was in the oc. All these old members I thought were gone. Gotta get DJ in here to sniff out the socks.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Not at all when talking to clueless folks that are ignorant to the actual power of ebikes...not at all...why would I be embarrassed? Now a name like "baddest grandpa"? That's embarrassing before you even start your driveling...





Cornfield said:


> We aren't just talking about "the actual power of ebikes", as if that was the only issue with them...





LTZ470 said:


> Oh yea we are, it's the ebike "cheaters" speed versus the purist speed...thats the REAL debate...with you guys anyway...


Here ya go, Meat, a DJ style multi-quote.

*And a meme, should make you feel right at home. 

View attachment 1136091


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Yes Sir thats the reason for the other thread...an ebike passed a MTBR...and he wasn't thrilled....in case you forgot...and we could quote on and on and so forth and so forth...it's about speed and then c"heating" in the minds of purist MTBR folks...



Crankout said:


> Found in the ad at the bottom of this forum:
> 
> *E3 DASH - 2015
> In a hurry? This bike can sure hustle and is built to get you through town lightening fast and under great control.
> $1,599.00 $*





Harryman said:


> Responding to the OP's Blog post:
> 
> 4) Being able to ride faster in more places provides more opportunity for user conflict.





Walt said:


> Motors, on the other hand (I have firsthand experience with a LEVO to prove this to myself) do make bikes go much, much faster overall. The top speed on a LEVO is probably not any different than top speed on a normal mountain bike (on the downhills) but the climbing speed is basically going to double.
> 
> -Walt





Le Duke said:


> Ok. Then add 250w to said rider, and imagine how much faster he'd be going. Probably 50% or more speed.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk





Le Duke said:


> Walt is a former pro XC racer, I'm a current pro XC racer, albeit not as good as Walt was back in the day.
> 
> Just because YOU can't, doesn't mean no one else can.





Harryman said:


> Pretty much, a fit rider only gets faster with more power added externally, which changes which trails can be ridden uphill and how fast.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> You don't seem to be able to distinguish between lighter and heavier bikes and the uses therein.
> 
> Fyi, the DR650 wasn't produced until 1990. So, yeah, whatever liar.


I speaky about Enduros, Grasshopper...liar depicted below with several trail links and the DR650...you too much clueless on many things, Grasshopper...

Yep, no one understands the DR650 like you do....lol....try Googling: Suzuki DR650 trail riding...many folks use them on the trails...









You'll Want to Buy a DR650 After Watching This - ADV Pulse


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## DABIGSEAT (Apr 29, 2012)

Kinda like the same reason you wouldn't take a sh bike to a MX track,,,,not where it belongs.......Folks take families (meaning young kids & seniors) for scenic & nature hikes, not to have some juiced up ebikes buzzing by. Me ,,I'm not in the best shape but working hard on getting there,, so when I'm faced with dome really hard climbs ,its no a target for me to master that climb(self accomplishment) ,and then to see some dam ebike buzz up the same hill with no effort👹👹👹,,,,argh...I could push'em rite back down that hill ....Lmao....Its like studying for a month for a big test & the guy nxt to has a dam cheat sheet!!!....Lol.....Personal riff aside,,,,as long as no damage is being done trail wise(how long before that changes)to each is own ,,,just have fun & be respectful of others

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

I'll just put this here since you didn't acknowledge it in the other thread, LTZ.



slapheadmofo said:


> The fact that mountain bikes are strictly human-powered conveyances has been a huge plank in our platform to gain trail access for a long, long time. Insisting that mountain bikers pretend an e-bike doesn't have a motor, and then expecting them to take this ridiculous position and attempt to justify it to anyone who isn't personally invested in e-bikes (ie -everyone involved in trail management) is incredibly myopic and selfish.


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## DABIGSEAT (Apr 29, 2012)

rider95 said:


> That's why e bikes are allowed on the trails because of no issues we stop for hikers and the horse ppl love us and no need to charge the hill to carry speed , with a e bike the trails are safer for all the trail users . So no we are not hated at all


Maybe that might be true for you.....But what happens in the hands of a hyped up of 19yr old on the same bike??? Just like I stop for hikers horsebackers ,families ,boyscotts,etc.....Other riders may not ............So same thing...Kinda mean less statement

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## DABIGSEAT (Apr 29, 2012)

Where the "e"road bikes oh thats right ,,😂😂😂😂😂😂 they are called _________ . just face it big market came up with some bull and those that got suckered,now wanna change the rules 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂#brats

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> I'll just put this here since you didn't acknowledge it in the other thread, LTZ.


Yes Sir, I read it and understood the gist of it, ebikes are here whether you and I like it or not, and they will be into the foreseeable future be ridden on trails, getting Controls in place now will be a great thing to do and getting ebike riders on board with riding respectably, responsibly, with a grateful and helpful attitude is important...

Trying to deny this is only a lie in and of itself...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

DABIGSEAT said:


> Maybe that might be true for you.....But what happens in the hands of a hyped up of 19yr old on the same bike??? Just like I stop for hikers horsebackers ,families ,boyscotts,etc.....Other riders may not ............So same thing...Kinda mean less statement
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


How many 19 yr olds in your town can afford a $4500 emtb?


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## DABIGSEAT (Apr 29, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> How many 19 yr olds in your town can afford a $4500 emtb?


Can you see their /or parents money situation?? How many 19yr olds you know that can do anything without parents assistance... lmao..Cheers

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes Sir, I read it and understood the gist of it, ebikes are here whether you and I like it or not, and they will be into the foreseeable future be ridden on trails, getting Controls in place now will be a great thing to do and getting ebike riders on board with riding respectably, responsibly, with a grateful and helpful attitude is important...
> 
> Trying to deny this is only a lie in and of itself...


Have you spent any time on hiking and equestrian forums educating them about the benefits of allowing ebikes on the trails?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

DABIGSEAT said:


> Can you see their /or parents money situation?? How many 19yr olds you know that can do anything without parents assistance... lmao..Cheers
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


Yes, I would like to know how many parents will buy their 19 yr old a $4500 emtb....how many in reality?...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> Have you spent any time on hiking and equestrian forums educating them about the benefits of allowing ebikes on the trails?


 No, I live around several horse owners and we all ride on the same roads, paths and trails, they don't bother me and I don't bother them, they like my bike much better than my Polaris RZR...Hiker's?, see and talk to them on the trails ALL the time, stop for chats and even at the parking lot...always helpful; to others...hikers with dogs are the biggest challenge probably, but no issues thus far...if the dog is aggressive we stop and allow then to pass so we are not moving...respectfully and responsibly...


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> No, I live around several horse owners and we all ride on the same roads, paths and trails, they don't bother me and I don't bother them, they like my bike much better than my Polaris RZR...Hiker's?, see and talk to them on the trails ALL the time, stop for chats and even at the parking lot...always helpful; to others...hikers with dogs are the biggest challenge probably, but no issues thus far...if the dog is aggressive we stop and allow then to pass so we are not moving...respectfully and responsibly...


If you're trying to get ebikes accepted on all trails that allow regular mtbs, the battle for access you need to fight is not with us, it's with them. A few bruised mountain biker egos will heal, lost trail access will be gone forever.

Maybe you could convince all the hikers and horseback riders that ebikes are what they need. Perhaps they have never been comfortable on regular bikes due to the effort required. If you could do that, you'd be a frikkin mtb hero! :lol:


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> If you're trying to get ebikes accepted on all trails that allow regular mtbs, the battle for access you need to fight is not with us, it's with them. A few bruised mountain biker egos will heal, lost trail access will be gone forever.
> 
> Maybe you could convince all the hikers and horseback riders that ebikes are what they need. Perhaps they have never been comfortable on regular bikes due to the effort required. If you could do that, you'd be a frikkin mtb hero! :lol:


Agree with you, the folks I have been riding around the last few years never have taken any stance with me or my family or friends riding with me...folks do take note when you see them stopped and having trouble, and you stop and help them or at least ask them if they need help...we do this for everyone, we've even shared snacks and water out on the trail with others that did not have any not once but several times...we are the same when we are Rving as well...the USA as a whole needs to help each other, makes a better world and folks are more tolerant and patient...


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Agree with you, the folks I have been riding around the last few years never have taken any stance with me or my family or friends riding with me...folks do take note when you see them stopped and having trouble, and you stop and help them or at least ask them if they need help...we do this for everyone, we've even shared snacks and water out on the trail with others that did not have any not once but several times...we are the same when we are Rving as well...the USA as a whole needs to help each other, makes a better world and folks are more tolerant and patient...


Hey, that's great, for you. You're trails and experiences aren't the same as everyone else's here on mtbr, and you need to realize that when you make statements like "ebikes do no harm", it's not the same for everyone else outside of your bubble.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> I speaky about Enduros, Grasshopper...liar depicted below with several trail links and the DR650...you too much clueless on many things, Grasshopper...
> 
> Yep, no one understands the DR650 like you do....lol....try Googling: Suzuki DR650 trail riding...many folks use them on the trails...
> 
> ...


Those might qualify as trails in Texas. I call them roads, thus the reference to BLM/USFS roads. Spend some time on the 650 adventure bike forums for the real typical use of these large bikes (thus my earlier "most typical use" comment).

Stop frantically scouring the internet for videos and actually try thinking things through rationally. We know your shtick. Maybe you could turn things around that way and gain some modicum of respect that is currently lacking. Done with your lunacy now.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes, I think the miscommunication here is about what constitutes a "trail".

LTZ, to a mountain biker, a "trail" is generally <3' wide (and often quite a bit narrower than that). Not wide enough for an ATV. Anything wider is referred to as a "fire road" or "doubletrack". 

I don't think anyone here has a problem on e-bikes on trails wider than 3' or so (assuming they also allow normal bikes). I know I don't. 

-Walt


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Cornfield said:


> I'll just put this here since you didn't acknowledge it in the other thread, LTZ.


Yeah, whole lot easier to whine about 'haters' and go into the weeds on non-pertinent technical mumbo-jumbo than to deal with the real heart of the problem. I don't care what people ride, I just don't want to have to get stuck answering for motorized use. Spent too damn long selling the fact that mountain bikes are a whole different category than anything with a motor. Now many e-bikers expect that we mtb advocates have nothing better to do than turn into apologists for their new toys in order to keep our own hard-won access.

Sorry, but I'm not interested. Convince the land managers if you can, then welcome to the trails. But leave us mountain bikers out of it. We don't use motors, we don't want to have to justify yours; that's on you.

And yeah, you're not putting a 650 down real singletrack. My kid has trouble with his 85, even on the less techy stuff. In real N.E. MTB tech, you'd need a trials bike.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes Sir thats the reason for the other thread...an ebike passed a MTBR...and he wasn't thrilled....in case you forgot...and we could quote on and on and so forth and so forth...it's about speed and then c"heating" in the minds of purist MTBR folks...


I've been passed by probably 100 people on ebikes, a few even wearing flip flops, my ego has not been bruised, I could care less. I don't think ebikes are cheating, I simply don't think they're bikes, once you add a motor, it's now a motorized bike. Current legislation allows 750w ebikes, management has to be based on that since that is what we will see in 5 years, not just old slow guys on 250w bikes. I know people that work in the industry and that's what they're gearing up for.

Speed is the number one issue we deal with in regard to user conflict. I've been riding mtbs since 1985, bike technology has allowed higher downhill speeds over the years, especially on rougher sections, you couldn't go pinging through rock gardens on a rigid bike with tubed 1.95" tires pumped to 40psi in those days like you can now. On the flats though and climbing, not that much has improved outside of better traction, overall speed is still limited by how fit and skilled you are. You can argue all you want about how fast anyone can ride uphill with a motor, but adding more power = more speed in more places per ride.

Even if it turns out that the impact per foot of trail is the same between a mtb and a 750w ebike, which I'm not counting on, emtb riders will ride farther with double the distance being the common claim, so the impact per rider is now higher.

Both of these issues are managable, but they get zero acknowledgement from the industry and people pushing emtbs. They are also the main things that concern land managers and the reasons why my local parks system has zero interest in allowing them. There is no upside for them, or for our local trail orgs to allowing vehicles that will create more maintenance work and more potential problems. If the industry's stance was "Hey, we've got these exciting new motorized bikes, we'd like them to be allowed on your (the land manager's) trails, how can we help you make that possible?" They would receive a warmer reception among the people that actually make those decisions.

Forum arguments over ebikes resolve nothing, they tend to only reinforce the commonly perceived notion that emtb sellers and riders could care less about where they ride them and anyone's opposition, reasonable or not. Until the ebike community actually works on the ground to combat that, and become a force in making things better, they will continue in their path of mirroring early mtb history, which was not pretty.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

LTZ470 said:


> You "still trying to pi$$ on peoples leg and tell them it's rain"...folks ain't as dumb as you look Bump....they can easily sort through your BS agenda...lol...and that's all you are trying to push, your BS agenda, thats why you look ignorant, clueless, and over your head trying to even discuss ebikes and their speed...you don't even understand the the basics...Gearing, Torque Sensors, and Cadence when it comes to ebikes, so you keep spouting ignorant foolish misguided info...wanna see a true liar in every sense of the word, look in the mirror...get edumacated and then come back and make some sense of ebike speed/power....


Yes, keep spouting, OTHER GUY. Indeed. Great catch, bro.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yeah, whole lot easier to whine about 'haters' and go into the weeds on non-pertinent technical mumbo-jumbo than to deal with the real heart of the problem. I don't care what people ride, I just don't want to have to get stuck answering for motorized use. Spent too damn long selling the fact that mountain bikes are a whole different category than anything with a motor. Now many e-bikers expect that we mtb advocates have nothing better to do than turn into apologists for their new toys in order to keep our own hard-won access.
> 
> Sorry, but I'm not interested. Convince the land managers if you can, then welcome to the trails. But leave us mountain bikers out of it. We don't use motors, we don't want to have to justify yours; that's on you.
> 
> And yeah, you're not putting a 650 down real singletrack. My kid has trouble with his 85, even on the less techy stuff. In real N.E. MTB tech, you'd need a trials bike.


 I was riding @ santos in FL and came across a group of horses this was a commercial trail riding outfit , the leader gave me a stern look I stopped and said hi and the look on his face changed I chatted with them . This guy leads horse back rides every day and seemed to be surprised to find a friendly MT biker he went on to say the Mt bikers usually just blast by he had no ideal I was on a e bike and didn't care later in the day the same thing with a lone rider on horse he too said that all the MT bikers just fly by him I must have spent an hr talking with him . I find my self having to apologize for years of bad Mt bike riding I almost always will say a friendly hello to hikers and trail runners and stop or move off the trail for them with the e bike its easy to get going again , I film most of my rides to show the park manger how e bikes use and interact with the other park users and I now have been given permission to use my e bike on any of the city's MT bike trails by both the local club and the park . My goal is too prove that allowing e bikes on the trails will be a positive thing for all users .


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

rider95 said:


> I have been gone not been on here better things to spend my time on and log on to find this new members and a old one taking this site to new lows , nothing good to post now been reduce to name calling and personal attacks WTF . I work to inform and to show how E bikes can be a positive thing for parks and clubs I am coming to a trail near you soon .


 Not in MA. There are a few OHV areas to motor in though. Like 6 in the whole state.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

rider95 said:


> That's why e bikes are allowed on the trails because of no issues we stop for hikers and the horse ppl love us and no need to charge the hill to carry speed , with a e bike the trails are safer for all the trail users . So no we are not hated at all


 Just not legal here in MA. Have fun motoring on the pavement.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes Sir, I read it and understood the gist of it, ebikes are here whether you and I like it or not, and they will be into the foreseeable future be ridden on trails, getting Controls in place now will be a great thing to do and getting ebike riders on board with riding respectably, responsibly, with a grateful and helpful attitude is important...
> 
> Trying to deny this is only a lie in and of itself...


 Except where I ride, no motorized vehicles allowed. E bikes have a motor, so there's that. MA and lots of other places in New England. So no, not on the trails. Pavement is open and the 6 ORV in the state. And not, not welcome. And bikes don't have motors. They are something else. THAT is the point. Responsible users don't poach, that goes for mt bikers on hiking only trails too. As well as e motorcycles on multi use trails where motors are not allowed. Dude.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

LTZ470 said:


> It's funny when you see or think about an ebike this must be what you imagine they are like:


This is more apropos:

View attachment 1136163


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes, I would like to know how many parents will buy their 19 yr old a $4500 emtb....how many in reality?...


 The same parents that have 3 and 4 cars and live in 500K to $ 3 million $ homes. All around where I live. The same ones that get them a BMW 3 series or jeep when they turn 16. What do those cost?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> The same parents that have 3 and 4 cars and live in 500K to $ 3 million $ homes. All around where I live. The same ones that get them a BMW 3 series or jeep when they turn 16. What do those cost?


I have 4 cars, and I just bought my 12 year old a ~$4000 MX bike.
He's got a trail moto, quad, snowmobile, and a carbon MTB too, 
My house is nowhere near half a million though. 
Priorities!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> I was riding @ santos in FL and came across a group of horses this was a commercial trail riding outfit , the leader gave me a stern look I stopped and said hi and the look on his face changed I chatted with them . This guy leads horse back rides every day and seemed to be surprised to find a friendly MT biker he went on to say the Mt bikers usually just blast by he had no ideal I was on a e bike and didn't care later in the day the same thing with a lone rider on horse he too said that all the MT bikers just fly by him I must have spent an hr talking with him . I find my self having to apologize for years of bad Mt bike riding I almost always will say a friendly hello to hikers and trail runners and stop or move off the trail for them with the e bike its easy to get going again , I film most of my rides to show the park manger how e bikes use and interact with the other park users and I now have been given permission to use my e bike on any of the city's MT bike trails by both the local club and the park . My goal is too prove that allowing e bikes on the trails will be a positive thing for all users .


That's great, but do you know what a 'non sequitur' is? 

Seriously, though, this is exactly what e-bikers need to be doing. Well, this as well as getting involved in real advocacy (not just bitching on the internet that not everyone will pretend there's no motor). MTBers as a group are never going to accept the premise that adding a motor isn't a fundamental change. Neither are the majority of LMs. So instead of wasting so much time here BSing with people who don't make the decisions and are at best averse to taking responsibility for a new motorized user group, e-bikers should be talking to LMs and working to blaze their own path.

Oh, and not whining when someone points to your motor and calls it a motor. That's seriously the biggest issue I have with e-bikers. You have a motor, which means you are NOT operating the same thing as a mountain bike; if that simple fact is beyond admitting, then you guys are hopeless.


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## Wardo (Aug 4, 2003)

Ebikers should develop and maintain trails specifically for ebikes. I am certain they would resemble motocross trails more than they would mountain bike trails. Only in areas with a lack of singletrack have I seen mountain bikers seek out motocross trails, they simply don't translate to what is enjoyable. They are very different modalities, the trails should reflect that, and no matter how much it doesn't make sense to you, your efforts are futile, no real cyclists are buying.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I don't think there needs to be a whole separate set of trails for e-bikes, at least for low powered PAS versions. I think used responsibly, they could work fine on many if not most MTB trails, particularly if those trails are well-built. But keeping the distinction between MTBs and e-bikes clear lets us hedge our bets versus any future potential issues, where if there ever is a reason an LM wants to no longer allow e-bikes, they are a distinct user group from real bikes and we mountain bikers don't get screwed through guilt by association.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Crankout said:


> This is more apropos:
> 
> View attachment 1136163


LMBO...awesome! Good one Crank,,,


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> I don't think there needs to be a whole separate set of trails for e-bikes, at least for low powered PAS versions. I think used responsibly, they could work fine on many if not most MTB trails, particularly if those trails are well-built. But keeping the distinction between MTBs and e-bikes clear lets us hedge our bets versus any future potential issues, where if there ever is a reason an LM wants to no longer allow e-bikes, they are a distinct user group from real bikes and we mountain bikers don't get screwed through guilt by association.


Yes, must keep the "Nuclear Option".


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

rider95 said:


> I was riding @ santos in FL and came across a group of horses this was a commercial trail riding outfit , the leader gave me a stern look I stopped and said hi and the look on his face changed I chatted with them . This guy leads horse back rides every day and seemed to be surprised to find a friendly MT biker he went on to say the Mt bikers usually just blast by he had no ideal I was on a e bike and didn't care later in the day the same thing with a lone rider on horse he too said that all the MT bikers just fly by him I must have spent an hr talking with him . I find my self having to apologize for years of bad Mt bike riding I almost always will say a friendly hello to hikers and trail runners and stop or move off the trail for them with the e bike its easy to get going again , I film most of my rides to show the park manger how e bikes use and interact with the other park users and I now have been given permission to use my e bike on any of the city's MT bike trails by both the local club and the park . My goal is too prove that allowing e bikes on the trails will be a positive thing for all users .


Good points and respect and responsibility...a must for all of us to exemplify...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

leeboh said:


> The same parents that have 3 and 4 cars and live in 500K to $ 3 million $ homes. All around where I live. The same ones that get them a BMW 3 series or jeep when they turn 16. What do those cost?


Why an emtb then?...they wouldn't even want one...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Why an emtb then?...


Same reason a lot of people get them, the sweetest singletrack trails are often off limits for a YZ125.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Same reason a lot of people get them, the sweetest singletrack trails are often off limits for a YZ125.


With a Jeep or a 3 Series BMW, I wouldn't think many kids that well off would care anything about bike riding to be honest...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> With a Jeep or a 3 Series BMW, I wouldn't think many kids that well off would care anything about bike riding to be honest...


I'd guess there is a very high correlation between parental income and youth participation in cycling of any kind.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

rider95 said:


> I was riding @ santos in FL and came across a group of horses this was a commercial trail riding outfit , the leader gave me a stern look I stopped and said hi and the look on his face changed I chatted with them . This guy leads horse back rides every day and seemed to be surprised to find a friendly MT biker he went on to say the Mt bikers usually just blast by he had no ideal I was on a e bike and didn't care later in the day the same thing with a lone rider on horse he too said that all the MT bikers just fly by him I must have spent an hr talking with him . I find my self having to apologize for years of bad Mt bike riding I almost always will say a friendly hello to hikers and trail runners and stop or move off the trail for them with the e bike its easy to get going again , I film most of my rides to show the park manger how e bikes use and interact with the other park users and I now have been given permission to use my e bike on any of the city's MT bike trails by both the local club and the park . My goal is too prove that allowing e bikes on the trails will be a positive thing for all users .


Based on your anecdote there, it sounds like mountain bikers are a rude and nasty bunch, and e-bikers are kind and helpful diplomats. Another reason that e-bikes and bicycles should be in separate categories.


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## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Anecdotes are pretty worthless to prove any point, besides making a point that the one using the anecdote has questionable ability at making a solid argument.

That said, I have a story to share: 

A pair of co-workers, who are dating each other, took off 1 week to go to Tahoe and Yosemite. The guy thinks a carbon fiber super bike is $1k, and has said things like using the front brake caused him to go over the bars the last time he biked. Needless to say, not really the kind that ride bikes as adults. I kind of wanted to suggest an ebike rental around Tahoe, but too late now, as they're already gone. Wonder if that's what they're doing now, enjoying Tahoe, considering the highway closure to Yosemite this time of year (due to winter weather damage). There was a remote possibility that they could've gained an interest in the outdoors, beyond these short vacations, competing with time with Netflix, video games, food/drink, lazing around, etc. I would've enjoyed learning of how that story would've unfolded, especially if I were asked to guide them to local riding spots (kind of doubt that would happen, considering how I kind of told them I do the extreme kind of riding that scares them).


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

It's really not that difficult to understand. Electric motor powered bike proponents make the argument that they are still bicycles. Personally I have a hard time arguing against this. Nobody can seriously argue that electric motor powered bikes are not motorized vehicles though. As long as electric motor powered bikes stay on trails designated for motorized vehicles I have no issues with them. Human powered bikers object to electric motor powered bikers sense of entitlement to ride on trails fought for, negotiated, and built by human powered mountain bikers. I think the illegal use of electric motor powered bikes on non motorized trails puts access at risk and threatens to undermine all the hard work we have put into the relationships we have built with land managers. If electric motor powered bikers want access to trails, do your own advocacy, build your own relationships, and stop trying to ride on the coattails of real mountain bikers.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

If e bikes were allowed on your fav trail how would this effect your use and enjoyment of said trail??? would your ride be less fun? in what way? So you see me and my e bike why does this make you mad??


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

As long as the BLM continues to ban them, I'm somewhat happy.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

rider95 said:


> If e bikes were allowed on your fav trail how would this effect your use and enjoyment of said trail??? would your ride be less fun? in what way? So you see me and my e bike why does this make you mad??


I think you are completely missing my point.

If electric motor powered bikes **were allowed** (your words) on my local trails, and were ridden reasonably and responsibly, I would have no problem whatsoever with them.

You and your electric-motor powered bike don't make me mad at all. In fact I would love to take your bike for a spin some time **on motorized-legal trails**.

The unauthorized use of electric motor powered bikes on non-moto trails definitely has the potential to affect my continued use and enjoyment of said trails. Outside of this issue I have no objection to electric motor powered bikes if ridden reasonably and responsibly.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

rider95 said:


> If e bikes were allowed on your fav trail how would this effect your use and enjoyment of said trail??? would your ride be less fun? in what way? So you see me and my e bike why does this make you mad??


I would be scared *hitless if there were people coming up my local ~5% grade 2-way trails at 15+ mph, which they could/would. I would be somewhat annoyed if there were a billion bro-brahs using XC trails as shuttle runs because they could get up to the top with zero effort. I could care less if people were riding directional bike only trails on them.

Solution: have at the directional bike only trails. Elsewhere, either accept much lower power/speed governors (10 mph?) and figure out how to enforce it, or stay off.

-Walt


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## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Skooks said:


> I think you are completely missing my point.
> 
> If electric motor powered bikes **were allowed** (your words) on my local trails, and were ridden reasonably and responsibly, I would have no problem whatsoever with them.
> 
> ...


Dodging the questions like a politician.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rider95 said:


> If e bikes were allowed on your fav trail how would this effect your use and enjoyment of said trail??? would your ride be less fun? in what way? So you see me and my e bike why does this make you mad??


It's not going to affect how much fun I have on a ride, but even allowing class 1 ebikes on the trails here will affect my and my orgnizations workload, which affects how much time we can spend on new projects or other more productive things. You, on one ebike, isn't going to affect anyone, if 30% of the riders on the trails are on ebikes 5 years from now, it will.

Ebike riders can ride farther, most people claim 2x or even 3x for the same amount of effort. This mean more laps of the same trails = more wear and tear. We have a MOU with the city, so we are obligated to maintain the trails we have built.

Increased speeds will lead to increased conflict on the crowed trails I ride on, where we are often called upon to placate the public, assure them we are not all idiots and tell the riding community to be respectful. I'd rather spend my time doing something else.

In my town, allowing one type of ebike will effectively be allowing any type of ebike, there will be zero enforcement. I don't want to have to deal with guys on derestricted bikes, modded bikes and kit bikes causing problems and have it dumped back on us.

I can't imagine myself in a public meeting trying to explain to people how a motorized bike is somehow both non motorized and is still a bicycle. I really don't want to be in meetings trying to separate ourselves from ebikes so we don't get blamed for the above. You guys do it all yourselves and take ownership for it, and I'll be happy to see you on the trails.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

If we don't draw a line in the sand right now, we'll never be able to once the tide comes rushing in.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> If e bikes were allowed on your fav trail how would this effect your use and enjoyment of said trail??? would your ride be less fun? in what way? So you see me and my e bike why does this make you mad??


It wouldn't affect me a single bit. As long as I don't get stuck writing emails and sitting in meetings trying to justify why they should be allowed if I'm going to continue riding "my" trails on a regular bike, I could care less. I'm happy to share, but the motor opens a can of worms I don't personally want to see mixed with MTBs politically.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

This has pedals. It's a bicycle right?

This is the problem.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

ARandomBiker said:


> This has pedals. It's a bicycle right?
> 
> This is the problem.


When you purchase one get two, maybe you can get them for less than $20,000.000...lol...$12,000 msrp!

Never seen one and who is gonna buy these for Single Track?


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> When you purchase one get two, maybe you can get them for less than $20,000.000...lol...$12,000 msrp!
> 
> Never seen one and who is gonna buy these for Single Track?


A S-Works Turbo Levo FSR lists at $9500 and they seem to be selling. At $10~12K whatever the Stealth is a lot more bang for the buck.

(Main difference being is that a Levo can sneak in almost anywhere whereas the Stealth is hardly stealthy)


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> When you purchase one get two, maybe you can get them for less than $20,000.000...lol...$12,000 msrp!
> 
> Never seen one and who is gonna buy these for Single Track?


You keep cherry picking your rebuttals. Price and prevalence are irrelevant.

THESE EXIST.

They *look* like a bicycle, and DON'T sound like a motorcycle... but they produce 4800w for 80km. The video brags about the top speed of 80-something km/hr.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> When you purchase one get two, maybe you can get them for less than $20,000.000...lol...$12,000 msrp!
> 
> Never seen one and who is gonna buy these for Single Track?


Top of the line HaiBike is $17k, and that is just a fancy specced out pedal assist bike.

Haibike makes the argument for e-mountain bikes - Mtbr.com

Guys I ride with have more money than I do, and one recently purchased a $6k trail bike with no motor. There are options to fiance Bikes. I Financed my 2002 Specialized Enduro Pro 15 years ago, I am sure you can finance any eBike. The Haibike line starts at around $4k and goes up to that $17k mark. I don't think they would be selling bikes if no one was buying them. There is a market for these bikes and they are being sold. Honestly that Stealth Bike looks like it could be perfect for back country hunting or military invasions where being able to navigate around difficult terrain without the noise of an Internal Combustion Engine is a key component.

I think the Idea mentioned that Directional Trails are part of the solution is a good idea, and not just for eBikes, directional trails are a good idea period.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> I think the Idea mentioned that Directional Trails are part of the solution is a good idea, and not just for eBikes, directional trails are a good idea period.


This needs to emphasized, IMO, by e-bike advocates. Modernizing trail design could do a LOT to mitigate problems with e-bikes and uphill speed. On legacy MUT things are tough but there are bike-specific (or at least mostly bike specific) trails getting built everywhere. Where is Haibike/Specialized/etc with their tons of funding to make those trails safe to share with e-bikes?

-Walt


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> I think the Idea mentioned that Directional Trails are part of the solution is a good idea, and not just for eBikes, directional trails are a good idea period.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

To this I'll add the even/odd trail use days; perhaps "e-ven" days for e-bikes!?!?

(Or all bikes???)


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Mookie said:


> OMG, you're arguing that intelligent people need to dumb down to understand what the idiots are saying. That's not the case. Intelligent people can understand the arguments just fine. The problem is that inarticulate posts suggest a lack of understanding of the issue at hand by the author of the post.
> 
> You are making my day.


Mookie...can you recall the MTBR member a few years ago (or more) who would post lengthy, circular diatribes? Zooey reminds me of that person.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Mookie said:


> Due to terrible grammar and nonsensical text this is an invalid post.


Word salad


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Directional trails? They don't work, look at the issues with wrong way riders @ 18 Road for one example.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

tiretracks said:


> Directional trails? They don't work, look at the issues with wrong way riders @ 18 Road for one example.


The concept works fine in CA OHV parks; maybe MTBers are less law-abiding than moto riders?


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

I'm fine with it, but keep it off strava or any other training/ measuring. You shouldn't get any credit for the mileage, pacing, calories, and you shouldn't be in the benchmarking for those working their ass off to get better. 

I'm all for the 70+ crowd and those with disabilities having fun and getting their smiles for miles. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

All most all of our trails are one way and always have been its the norm for us , just try n ride backwards and you will be told politely . It works great for the racers too not all trails can be one-way but the more usage the more need for one way .


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

tiretracks said:


> Directional trails? They don't work, look at the issues with wrong way riders @ 18 Road for one example.


What is @ 18 Road one?

With proper signage directional trails would be amazing. I know many are against the idea of specific trails, But I would also like to see some Bike Only trails, keep the horses and pedestrians off.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Bike only trails, directional trails, ebike friendly trails all sound great and seem like easy things to do, but internet talk is cheap. IME, land managers are loathe to change a trails classification because of the backlash from the users who are now excluded and the added risk. There usually has to be a crisis among users to get trails reclassified. Our park dept flat out refuses bike only or uni directional trails except gravity ones which are @ .01% of our trail system.

New trails could be built or some exisiting trails rerouted to be more ebike friendly of course, which takes a significant amount of time, money and most importantly, political energy. If ebike riders wanted to make that happen, bring it on, it'd be great to see.


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

Directional trails would be quite easy to design. You can construct them in such a manner that going the wrong way is just too difficult. But restricting access to just a bike trail is a terrible idea. We already have issues with hikers trying to exclude us from trails so we don't need to adopt a similar attitude towards them and thus further encourage such exclusionary practices.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> All most all of our trails are one way and always have been its the norm for us , just try n ride backwards and you will be told politely . It works great for the racers too not all trails can be one-way but the more usage the more need for one way .


Well since you live in the Never Never Land of courtesy and law abiding citizens here's a look at how it works (or doesn't) in other places.

http://forums.mtbr.com/colorado-western-slope/attention-18-road-fruita-noobs-1043217.html


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Directional mountain bike trails could be fine but not for multi-use trails IMO. Hikers don't want to be herded around a track like cattle, the whole appeal is to go whichever direction calls to you. I prefer that same philosophy for mountain biking too but could deal with single direction on mtb only trails for safety reasons. 

The thing is that where I live mountain bike specific trails are an unaffordable luxury so every trail is MUT, which is fine by me btw.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

rider95 said:


> All most all of our trails are one way and always have been its the norm for us , just try n ride backwards and you will be told politely . It works great for the racers too not all trails can be one-way but the more usage the more need for one way .


Yes sir ours as well...all single track is directional...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes sir ours as well...all single track is directional...


Forest Ridge Preserve is an out and back, hows that work?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Forest Ridge Preserve is an out and back, hows that work?


No idea, never made it down there to ride...would love to...


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

The article in the original post starts from the same erroneous premise that LTZ seems to espouse in his attempts to justify E-motor-bikes on non-motorized trails: "MY particular use of ebikes is moderate, MY bike is a low-powered class 1, and therefore MY use of ebikes is just like that of mountain bikes."

The problem with this premise is that it assumes that all ebike riders are just like you, and all ebikes are just like yours. Unfortunately, there are lots of riders who don't have your moderation or your good etiquette. Further, there are plenty of ebikes whose power and top speed well exceeds that of a class 1 machine. In many cases, these high powered ebikes are basically indistinguishable in appearance from class 1 machines.

Land managers have to consider not just YOUR use, but all potential uses of ebikes. That means they have to consider that ebike users just might take that 1000w monster and decide to rip up the trails, or ride 70mph on narrow trails shared by hikers. These are very good reasons to keep ebikes off of those multi-use trails, and confine them to the moto trails with the other motorized bikes. 

BTW, why can't you just stay on the motorized trails with your motorized bike? What's so hard about that? There are plenty of places for motorized vehicles. Why do you have to ride in places you are not allowed?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

tiretracks said:


> Well since you live in the Never Never Land of courtesy and law abiding citizens here's a look at how it works (or doesn't) in other places.
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/colorado-western-slope/attention-18-road-fruita-noobs-1043217.html


I don't think it is fair to claim all directional trails will fail because of one anecdote about one trail.... I also noticed that the users said there is no sign at the bottom showing it is one direction. That would be helpful and necessary for any trail system that wants to have directional trails.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Besides DH specific stuff, I say screw directional trails.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

18 Road generally works great. It is *very* rare to run into someone coming up Kessel or down Prime Cut or whatever. I'm sure it occasionally happens but in general the rules are understood and work fine. 

The whole point of directional trails there (even though they're not gnar/DH style) is that you can ride pretty darn fast both up (if you're trying hard/in shape) and down them, and sight lines are sometimes not great. Directional trails solve this problem nicely, and if it weren't BLM land, I think class 1 e-bikes would integrate there pretty seamlessly - the trail system is for all practical purposes bike-only, and it's directional. Perfect.

-Walt


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Was riding sunday started up a long uphill on a two way trail when I spotted two riders coming down, the rider in front was a little boy with his dad behind him I pulled over the kid was all over the trail with eyes as big as siverdollars . He barley missed me I gave a friendly hello his dad was grinning and so was I so cool to see the little kid on the big trail ,good thing I ride always looking as far as I can see up the trail and being on a E bike its easy to just pull over and wait for the down hill rider to pass E bikes should always give right of way to reg mt bikers .


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Sorry folks been having too much fun riding my new bulls FS enduro to be on the forum, what a great bike especially after switching to WTB Trail Boss Tires...I tops out at 18 mph, but the ride and handling are great...like the enduro style with the front wheel a little further out front to stop the endo tricks I had been pulling...
No issues on ANY of the trails so far...


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## LargeMan (May 20, 2017)

IMO a 250w ebike is useless, I want one with at least 2000w , then if they get allowed on my local trails I am in. Rather just ride my normal bike slow then to have a heavy thing that only goes 18 mph.

Don't misunderstand what I am saying, I am against ebikes on non motorized trails and ebikes in general, but if I would go that route, I want some real speed.

Looking into these to program our existing bikes at the shop - https://www.ebiketuning.com/


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> No issues on ANY of the trails so far...


Where are those trails you are riding? I see you are from Texas and I know many trails there are on private ranches, which if that is the case the Rancher who owns the land decides who they let on, not any land management agencies.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Some Private some Public, no issues thus far with anyone even on DORBA trails, nicest folks, had a good chat with one of the trail bosses...I like most all their trails around the Dallas area....great fun, good exercise, good folks....all directional trails...bikes ccw, runners.hikers cw....

Moving further north though so got to find some trails closer to Ok/Tx border...


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## Ricisan (Aug 30, 2006)

My take is this is an elitist thing. Some of these guys are the fastest thing on wheels. They have worked very hard to be the local bad-ass. Here come someone w/motor and suddenly they're not the man! An E bike will not be faster on the gnarly downhills, just the uphills and straights. This all reminds me of the skiers vs. snowboards back in the day.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

It reminds me of that too. Those snowboards with motors on them were such a pain in the butt...

Oh, wait, it's nothing like that at all.

-Walt


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ricisan said:


> My take is this is an elitist thing. Some of these guys are the fastest thing on wheels. They have worked very hard to be the local bad-ass. Here come someone w/motor and suddenly they're not the man! An E bike will not be faster on the gnarly downhills, just the uphills and straights. This all reminds me of the skiers vs. snowboards back in the day.


Try again.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Walt said:


> If you don't even know the grade, why on earth did you post?
> 
> Look, more power is more speed. If you're completely feeble (not a judgement, some of us are) then that will mean 7mph instead of 4mph, or whatever, and it's not an issue.
> 
> ...


Good question and I obviously sucked at that guess. I am normally pretty good at it but I went out and measured that hill. On a bike it looked like Mt. Everest but from the vantage point of the truck it wasn't much. It measured at just under 5%.

I have since measured other grades. On a true 15% grade I was down to 7.7. 
could not get it to pull 750 watts. Most was 700 pedaling softly.

I am beginning to understand that there is several e-bike technologies out there and the way that they assist can vastly affect the outcome and mix with other riders. I now believe that e-bike watts are a poor measure for legislative purposes.

The way that most of the lower powered (250-500 watt) mid drive bikes work is that the harder you pedal the more power assist that you get. So a rider that can put out a burst of say 750 watts can have 1000 actual on a 250 watt e bike. This technology maximizes low wattage but rewards strong riders and penalizes weaker riders unless throttles are allowed. I think throttles are dangerous.

The way that mine works is that the harder that you pedal the more the bike lets you do the work. If you put out a burst of 750 watts and exceed 90 cadence or exceed speed cut off you get your own 750 watts and none from the bike so, its tough to get the full wattage from the bike. This might frustrate strong riders but is perfect for someone without a lot of endurance that tends to give out early. As the rider gives out the bike picks up the slack. This technology favors the very group of riders that need some assist over stronger riders but requires more wattage to be useful. Watt limiting legislation has some unintended consequences. Better to limit ultimate power of rider power plus assist power. That would eliminate the strava superman.


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## LargeMan (May 20, 2017)

PierreR said:


> Good question and I obviously sucked at that guess. I am normally pretty good at it but I went out and measured that hill. On a bike it looked like Mt. Everest but from the vantage point of the truck it wasn't much. It measured at just under 5%.
> 
> I have since measured other grades. On a true 15% grade I was down to 7.7.
> could not get it to pull 750 watts. Most was 700 pedaling softly.
> ...


Get a dongle for it, then you can get more watts and no speed cut off.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

PierreR said:


> I am beginning to understand that there is several e-bike technologies out there and the way that they assist can vastly affect the outcome and mix with other riders. I now believe that e-bike watts are a poor measure for legislative purposes.
> 
> The way that most of the lower powered (250-500 watt) mid drive bikes work is that the harder you pedal the more power assist that you get. So a rider that can put out a burst of say 750 watts can have 1000 actual on a 250 watt e bike. This technology maximizes low wattage but rewards strong riders and penalizes weaker riders unless throttles are allowed. I think throttles are dangerous.
> 
> The way that mine works is that the harder that you pedal the more the bike lets you do the work. If you put out a burst of 750 watts and exceed 90 cadence or exceed speed cut off you get your own 750 watts and none from the bike so, its tough to get the full wattage from the bike.


On most OEM emtbs, at least the ones commonly discussed here with a torque sensor, you're right, the harder you pedal, the more assist you get, from @50% on eco settings, up to @ 300% on top of what you're putting out on the higher settings with most 250w motors peaking at 520w or so.

Sounds like your ebike is based on cadence instead, so how hard you're pedaling wouldn't have an effect on how much the motor is giving you, only how fast you're pedaling and your chosen power level, which can be backwards from what you want, especially climbing.


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