# 29er wheels on chariot



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

alirght who's done it?

i have the chariot cougar 1. i want to lace up the hubs to 29er rims so they trailer will ride way better though the rough stuff. any problems i don't see?


the suspension on it really sucks for all the hype,

i am in the process of building a trailer suspension from scracth for when my son is a toddler. it will be able to bomb over rough stuff without bouncing his teeth out of his head.

but meanwhile i am going to use this chariot and baby it until i build something better.


----------



## gt5504b (Nov 28, 2005)

nope, I only bounce the kid down the trails, but...

the thought has crossed my mind (and kinda got shot down by my wife, who is probably a good voice of reason.)

and I definitely want to see pictures when you do it!!


----------



## Wolfjon (Mar 19, 2011)

I would just wonder how trippy it would get. I know I have had my daughter up on one wheel over some rocks before and the was skecchy..she was not to happy about that. I usually try to keep my rides with the kids less technical.


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

ya i will post some pics. 

the center axle will come up about 4" or so. i dont think it will be too bad. a 2 person trailer would naturally be better.

some of the fire roads i take him on can have some pretty good little ditches that can jar the trailer pretty good.

i am just trying to make it ride as smooth as possible.

the answer is IFS under the trailer. i will build one soon. i am still searching for a used trailer to do the conversion to.


----------



## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

hobiesmith said:


> ya i will post some pics.
> 
> the center axle will come up about 4" or so. i dont think it will be too bad. a 2 person trailer would naturally be better.
> 
> ...


I have one.


----------



## kid_dynamite (Jan 20, 2008)

I have a trek trailer with 20" wheels that was shaking my daughter up quite a bit. I replaced the crappy stock tires with a high volume pair and run super low pressure. It add's a bit of resistance, but makes the ride much smoother. and honestly what is a little more resistance when you're already pulling 60 lbs of trailer and kid. If you do make the swith, make sure no little fingers can slip out and into those spokes, it places them is a much more accessible place.


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

kid_dynamite said:


> I have a trek trailer with 20" wheels that was shaking my daughter up quite a bit. I replaced the crappy stock tires with a high volume pair and run super low pressure. It add's a bit of resistance, but makes the ride much smoother. and honestly what is a little more resistance when you're already pulling 60 lbs of trailer and kid. If you do make the swith, make sure no little fingers can slip out and into those spokes, it places them is a much more accessible place.


good point. luckily the cougar sides are sealed up so he wont be able to reach out of it. i am very please with the quality of the trailer in general.


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

okay so the chariot hubs are 24h.

the only 29er rims i could find were velocity a23.

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=34855

i just ordered them. my buddy had a set of 29er tires to throw on and he donated them to the project. they are WTB nano's. i bet i can run them like a 10 psi. we'll see.

i called my wheel builder today. he'll lace them up for 10 bucks for me :thumbsup: he's a friend of mine. a college kid who works at a bike shop.


----------



## Wolfjon (Mar 19, 2011)

Now you will have to post pictures when done... it will be interesting to see what our chariots look like sporting 29's..


----------



## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

How are you going to correct the angle you're towing at with the bigger wheels? It's going to be nose down.


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

NYrr496 said:


> How are you going to correct the angle you're towing at with the bigger wheels? It's going to be nose down.


nope


----------



## sunset1123 (Apr 28, 2009)

I would be very careful with this experiment. I tried this with two trailers (granted, not this particular model), one time with 700c wheels and once with 26" mountain bike wheels. In both cases it became clear that the subframe was not of sufficient strength to handle the increased loads resulting from the longer effective lever arm of the larger wheels. This is primarily due to the hubs being supported on only one side of the axle.

IME, it may look fine, and work okay for a while, but will be flexy/squirrely and eventually fail. Use the "shimmy" test if you do this. Load some weight in it and then push on the side of the trailer and see how much it wobbles back and forth. If it is significantly more than with the smaller wheels, I wouldn't trust it.


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

sunset1123 said:


> I would be very careful with this experiment. I tried this with two trailers (granted, not this particular model), one time with 700c wheels and once with 26" mountain bike wheels. In both cases it became clear that the subframe was not of sufficient strength to handle the increased loads resulting from the longer effective lever arm of the larger wheels. This is primarily due to the hubs being supported on only one side of the axle.
> 
> IME, it may look fine, and work okay for a while, but will be flexy/squirrely and eventually fail. Use the "shimmy" test if you do this. Load some weight in it and then push on the side of the trailer and see how much it wobbles back and forth. If it is significantly more than with the smaller wheels, I wouldn't trust it.


so what you are saying, is, the way the axle is attached to its housing and spins inside of it, may not be tight enough to support any extra wheel weight and leverage from the larger wheels.

i could see that. its not like there is a spindle bearing or anything. the tolerances arent that tight as it is.

you mention failuer, you didn't specify what would fail. i could see the bushing inside the housing getting worn out prematurely if it can't handle more weight and leverage of the 29er.

overall, its nothing not to trust, at first anyways, as it wears out, it will be obvious if the wheel is getting looser in the way its attached. then you just replaced parts. nothing last forever.


----------



## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=8044459&postcount=14

one wheel air suspended trailer. Very $$$ though.


----------



## ae111black (Dec 27, 2008)

I'm thinking the same thing for my kid's bob stroller, but with 26"ers


----------



## sunset1123 (Apr 28, 2009)

hobiesmith said:


> so what you are saying, is, the way the axle is attached to its housing and spins inside of it, may not be tight enough to support any extra wheel weight and leverage from the larger wheels.
> 
> i could see that. its not like there is a spindle bearing or anything. the tolerances arent that tight as it is.
> 
> ...


True true... from my experiments I experienced two failure modes that were actually indicators of the same thing. The first was related to handling. There was too much wobble in the trailer, it started pulling the bike around. This was due to the wheels being able to flex the subframe so they weren't tracking parallel, as well as the tendency for the frame to "weave" between the wheels laterally. This was caused by torsion of the frame itself, something that was not evident with the smaller wheels (meaning either some engineer did their homework and figured out exactly how much stiffness was required of the frame in order to support the design weight and the leverage of the smalller wheels or some bean counter figured the thickness of the aluminum bar stock being used could be reduced to save cost and make the marketing boys happy with a lower weight).

Which leads to the second failure mode. Torsion causes surfaces to work, resulting in wear and loosening fasteners. Having to stop every ride to tighten things up isn't fun. Additionally, I'll hazard a guess that the frame on your trailer is aluminum. Repeated torsion stress can easily fatigue aluminum (which has no fatigue limit) resulting in catastrophic failure (cracking).

For my purposes, the trailer was being used for cargo so I wasn't too concerned about going up against the limits of the engineering. Wouldn't consider it for 2 seconds if my son was going to be riding in it.

FWIW I have seen these kinds of modifications work quite well on trailers with a regular "dropout" style wheel attachment point that supports the hub on both sides, as well as on trailers which utilize a solid axle, cargo trailers in both cases.

Just my 2 cents. I'd love to hear how this works out. I put in quite a bit of time tinkering myself... fun yeah?


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

for the heck of it i will post this video






did anyone see that magura contest about performance factors?

i made this video for the contest. i was trying to say that my kids needs are my performance factors.

i hope that wasn't too deep? lol.

anyways, he's six months so he wasn't in the trailer during the video process. i have only taken him on smooth roads.


----------



## ghettocruiser (Jun 21, 2008)

I think I want to see this finished product as well.

Although given I've already one-wheeled my chariot around a few tight corners (to the occupant's great annoyance), I don't think increased ride height is where I want to go.


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

ghettocruiser said:


> I think I want to see this finished product as well.
> 
> Although given I've already one-wheeled my chariot around a few tight corners (to the occupant's great annoyance), I don't think increased ride height is where I want to go.


ya turning is slow on a single seater no matter what wheels you run. i would just like to be able to go up my fire road without his bouncing all around back there. coming down will be slow regardless of tire size.


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

got my new hoops in! going to get them laced right now. but i won't be back in town until next weekend.


----------



## GFisher2001 (Mar 16, 2006)

Will this effect the ride when in jogging mode? 

Subscribed.


----------



## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

Nice job, interested to see the final outcome. Put some Weirwolfs or Ardents on that thing too!


----------



## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

*Center of gravity raised by 4"???*

Looks like a fun experiment. Having owned and operated the same exact Chariot model for 4 years, I like most of the design features. I agree the suspension is akin to a thud buster seat post and does not offer much bump absorption. My little guy seemed to enjoy the bumpiness, always asking for more.

I'm sure you've considered all the factors and are obviously proceeding, unimpeded - full speed ahead. I will note that, IMO, the single occupant Chariot is a little tippy; and that's after many hundreds of miles on a variety of different bikes (mtn, road, cx, and townie) I'd be very careful once up and running. I "rolled" ours going very slow on a funky grassy turn on a side-sloped hill while researching a 'cross course. I was really surprised that it happened, and was thankful that my little guy was unharmed, though a little upset. I started reducing the miles I'd subject him too, and really only used the trailer when it was drizzly or cold out, and wanted to keep him out of the elements (we ride to his pre-school on a trail-a-bike or his own most of the year) because of that experience. The route to school was a safe, relatively smooth andflat route. I'd never bother trying to get my off-road fix with him in that thing - avoiding anything I'd call "rough stuff". If you proceed with this, please consider having a machine shop fabricate an axel assembly, or modify the existing one to drop the hub / wheel mount height and get that center of gravity back down to at least where it started, and perhaps widen the "stance", and maybe cant the wheels as they do on those racing wheelchairs, where the tops of the wheels are closer together than the bottoms... anything to stabilize the thing.

As an old, perhaps overly cautious guy - I can't really say I think this is a good idea, unless you're using the set-up to haul far less precious cargo than your child - or intend to keep the rig on strictly rail-trail type paths at relatively low speeds. I think Chariots lawyers would be keenly interested in triple-checking their language about modifying the trailer in such ways - making sure they're covered in a case like this.

Do indeed report back and post some pix, or a video. I hope I'm not coming off like a jerk here - as I appreciate the tinkering factor indeed, as a fellow tinkerer myself. And I'm sure if we could afford the shock absorber, single wheel, German made wonder-trailer noted above, we would get it.


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

glenzx said:


> Looks like a fun experiment. Having owned and operated the same exact Chariot model for 4 years, I like most of the design features. I agree the suspension is akin to a thud buster seat post and does not offer much bump absorption. My little guy seemed to enjoy the bumpiness, always asking for more.
> 
> I'm sure you've considered all the factors and are obviously proceeding, unimpeded - full speed ahead. I will note that, IMO, the single occupant Chariot is a little tippy; and that's after many hundreds of miles on a variety of different bikes (mtn, road, cx, and townie) I'd be very careful once up and running. I "rolled" ours going very slow on a funky grassy turn on a side-sloped hill while researching a 'cross course. I was really surprised that it happened, and was thankful that my little guy was unharmed, though a little upset. I started reducing the miles I'd subject him too, and really only used the trailer when it was drizzly or cold out, and wanted to keep him out of the elements (we ride to his pre-school on a trail-a-bike or his own most of the year) because of that experience. The route to school was a safe, relatively smooth andflat route. I'd never bother trying to get my off-road fix with him in that thing - avoiding anything I'd call "rough stuff". If you proceed with this, please consider having a machine shop fabricate an axel assembly, or modify the existing one to drop the hub / wheel mount height and get that center of gravity back down to at least where it started, and perhaps widen the "stance", and maybe cant the wheels as they do on those racing wheelchairs, where the tops of the wheels are closer together than the bottoms... anything to stabilize the thing.
> 
> ...


ya i agree. i found the single person chariot tippy on trails and stuff when i was testing it. so, no trails for this trailer and like you said, this trailer is best when going to fire roads/rails to trails. thats it. its not intended for an off road fix. i live at the base of the fire road. but its not groomed often and its flat accross but it rides real bumpy with rocks and wash outs everywhere. so i am hoping that the bigger wheels will help him be more comfortable for some morning training rides.

i am not going to modify this trailer any more than the wheels. if it doesnt work, i will switch back. my wife uses this a jogger too.

if this doesnt work at all, i have a whole other trailer setup in mind that will be highly modified. (i have a fab shop)


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

okay just got back from the first test ride.

so i did a series of test to get it to flip over and find the balance point:

so i loaded it up and on my way to the trail i swerved back and forth on road to see if i could get it to lift up a wheel. i couldn't :thumbsup:

naturally i would never swerve that hard with a child in the trailer

going up hill over rock, the 29ers with 10psi in the tires soaked up the bumps awesome compared to the 20" wheels with no pressure in those stiff road tires. :thumbsup:

i was on some double track that would get off camber in some places. so i bombed down it fast, like i would if i wasn't towing a trailer, i flipped the trailer going into a corner after a quick whip of the rear of the bike.  fun times. i ran the trail again, hopping some mild rock drops and what not. all went good and when i got to the corner i flipped before, i left the whip part of the manuever out and that trailer didn't flip :thumbsup:

overall, i found it to be a little bit more tipsy than in the stock configuration, naturally. but since you aren't supposed to be bombing down double track and hopping over rocks and flying around corners with a real child in the trailer, i don't think tipping it over will be a problem.

had i been towing a child, my speeds and cornering would of been a slow and safe pace, and the trailer would not even come close to flipping over.

compared to other trailers in general though, like glenzx said, i find that the cougar is a bit narrow, even the cougar 2 is a bit narrow. it almost seems like the cougar 2 is as narrow as some of the other brand's single child trailers.

so if you are looking for a trailer, with suspension, i would get the cougar 2. this will allow you to be a little bit more off camber and maybe pick up the pace a bit more when your child is 5 and telling you to go faster, lol.

i will use the trailer for now and keep testing. it will take the next year to see if the bushings wear out around the axle. the results are to follow.

in the end, i will be building another trailer with custom suspension. all i want is a smooth riding trailer off road on a fire road where "if" i accidently run over a 10" rock on one side of the trailer, i won't have to worry about the trailer flipping or my kids teeth coming out of his head. i mean, the trailer flipping isn't a big deal anyways. roll bars and helmets are there for a reaons and we are going all of 5mph, lol.


----------



## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

i would've gone with 2.5" x 24" myself but it looks like it's working well enough! :thumbsup:
maybe large marges and endomorphs on the next one?!


----------



## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

How hard would it be to lower the Chariot with big wheels? Benefit of big wheels without the tipsy-ness of a high center of gravity.


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

the-one1 said:


> How hard would it be to lower the Chariot with big wheels? Benefit of big wheels without the tipsy-ness of a high center of gravity.


it is possible and would be a good idea. i might...i am still deciding on what i will do with it next. if you have ever seen a lift block on truck, it would be basically the same idea.

but lowering the COG doesn't solve my issues with it. it will still ride the same and that's what the experiment is about. don't get me wrong, the 29ers took all the chatter bumps out of the trailer, but there is still no up travel in the suspension.

and it doesn't matter whether you have 20" or 29" wheels, no up travel means its "easy" to flop the trailer when encountering a bump on one side of the trailer.

this is what i want to fix in my build. and having the COG lower than these trailer come with stock. with good suspension, it won't be necessary to have the 29ers. 24" will probably do just fine if it had 8" of travel. a nice 4" of travel on a IFS setup instead of solid axle like the chariot has. that will absorb the bumps way better.

hmmm. onto the plans :thumbsup:


----------



## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

my 2 cents? keep it simple. basic canti beam on each side, don't bother with four bars. 
I sketched up a whole "back end of a buggy" for mine, eliminated the storage (which hey, diapers go there, right!?) and I realized that a carefully controlled axle path really wouldn't have made much of a difference to the passenger.

bolt on a beam to the front of the chariot, running to the back. shock somewhere mid-length.
good design, easy to build/repair. yer done. :thumbsup:


----------



## Marty01 (Oct 2, 2010)

trailling links suspension is what your after... they tend to help the wheel get over and in front (with direction of travel) of obstacles.. can also be made independant side-to-side... just factor some sort way tocorrect body-roll.. trailing links allow tons of it 

wisbars allow less sway.. but aren`t as smooth thru bumps..SPECIALLY when designed to lower COG thru linkage geometrie... maybe look into having a lower roll-center thru geometry and setting it up (spring-damping) on the very softside... but then it`ll bottom easy..

kudos for foraging into this `terrain` though.. keep us posted...heck... maybe you`ll end up with a trailling-link, one wheeld chariot...


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

i will be doing basic I beam setup


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

okay i figured i would update my thread since its been 1.5 years.

well the trailer has worked out great. not problems at all. the 29er tires that i run at barley 10psi soak up all the little chatter and make a huge difference. when you turn around to watch them, their little head isn't bouncing around like its about to come off.

my boy was around 8 months when i first put him in it. he didn't care for it too much. even the slightest bump made him cry. since then i have had another boy. he's 8 months now and loves the trailer. bumps or no bumps, he just goes right to sleep hahaha

its amazing how choppy the roads can be in urban riding. the fire roads seem smoother almost lol. so i am glad i did the modification.

however, while the 29er wheels rocks, buying the chariot specifically for the suspension was a waist of money. i should of just got a cheaper one and relaced the wheels. the suspension is worthless IMHO.

after getting many hours of use, i realized that a 2 wheel trailer is not the best trailer idea for many reason. i am sure its cheaper than the one wheel trailer that is like $3k or something. but with the 1 wheel trailer, you can easily have 4" of travel that is tuned with a shock. it would be like riding on a couch for the kids. also the trailer will lean with the bike and not fight it. the trailer will track in the same line as the bike which i found out was very important to me.

anyways, so i never took the time to build the trailer i wanted because i didn't want to invest all the time into a 2 wheel trailer when i think it inherently isnt' the best solution.

however since its the only reasonable solution right now, i rock it at least a few times a week up and down our alley or maybe a fire road or two.


EDIT: i have no idea why this pic uploads upsidedown


----------



## carbontubulars (Dec 20, 2009)

I was going to try to source a different hub that could be retrofitted with the chariot axle. If I can find a 36hole hub that is compatible, it opens up the world of fat unicycle rims, like these at 42mm wide. Nimbus 24 Dominator 2 Rim - Black - $55.00 : Unicycle.com, - Canada, Alberta, Calgary Then I can get a set of 3" wide duro tires and I'll have a fat chariot to go with my pugsley.

Tried towing the kids with the chariot ski attachment this winter and it works very well, until you have to go across a non-snow covered road or something like that...


----------



## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

carbontubulars said:


> I was going to try to source a different hub that could be retrofitted with the chariot axle. If I can find a 36hole hub that is compatible, it opens up the world of fat unicycle rims, like these at 42mm wide. Nimbus 24 Dominator 2 Rim - Black - $55.00 : Unicycle.com, - Canada, Alberta, Calgary Then I can get a set of 3" wide duro tires and I'll have a fat chariot to go with my pugsley.
> 
> Tried towing the kids with the chariot ski attachment this winter and it works very well, until you have to go across a non-snow covered road or something like that...


THere was a recent thread in fatbike forum about using 24", 100mm wide rims from the ubiquidous walmart OCC stingray chopper bikes on chariots.

Also note, if needed you can lace a 24 spoke hub to a 36 spoke rim by using a spoke pattern at the rim that groups 4 spokes together, then skips two holes.


----------



## JordyB (Oct 26, 2007)

GrayJay said:


> THere was a recent thread in fatbike forum about using 24", 100mm wide rims from the ubiquidous walmart OCC stingray chopper bikes on chariots.
> 
> Also note, if needed you can lace a 24 spoke hub to a 36 spoke rim by using a spoke pattern at the rim that groups 4 spokes together, then skips two holes.


These are 20" rear 36h 4"wide rims and tires from the OCC Chopper bike relaced like you said to the chariot hubs. I wish I could easily source spare hubs from Chariot...


----------



## iowaparrish (Nov 7, 2013)

We run behind our chariot mostly, but do hook it up to the bikes frequently. In the winter, I run a wider knobby BMX tire for better traction, but its wider and hence rides taller. I have noticed the chariot sways a lot more with the added height and always agreed with some of the posters concerned that going even higher would multiply that sway unless you had some kind of a thru-axle.

But reading the results here makes me think that maybe my wheels are the problem - maybe they are shot? I get a lot of lateral play in the wheels, do I need them relaced or something? Are the hubs shot? Would love to through 700's on them in the summer to lower the rolling resistance - my two kids, gear and the chariot itself mean I'm pushing around almost 100lbs and as they grow it will only get worse - a good workout, but I'm not sadistic!


----------



## hobiesmith (Mar 1, 2008)

okay just to report after 4 years and two kids, the trailer has peformed great. like i said before, the springs on the chariot are just so stiff that they dont even work unless you have a 40lbs kid in them. so trying to put a 1 year in the trailer thiinking that it wont be a ruff ride is not correct. the bigger wheels and tires made the ride smoother for my 1 year old. and i am just talking about nieghborhood roads. its kind of scary looking back at your kid and see his head flop around because of the little bumps in the road that are huge to him all because of the small 20" wheels and lack of suspension. 

that said, i have to move and downsize quickly because of life problems. etc.. so if anyone wants this thing, i am in burbank ca. come get it and make me an offer. i would love to keep it in the mtbr family.


----------



## eatthefrog (Apr 8, 2013)

hobiesmith said:


> that said, i have to move and downsize quickly because of life problems. etc.. so if anyone wants this thing, i am in burbank ca. come get it and make me an offer. i would love to keep it in the mtbr family.


Sweet holy mother, I hope this found a good home. If by any chance you still have it, let's talk.


----------

