# Te New Edge 800



## Mojo Man (Sep 1, 2007)

When do you think it will be a safe bet to purchase the new 800 edge?

Mojo


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## svbackstreets (Mar 31, 2007)

*Buy Now*

Since 1992 I've purchased eight new Garmin GPS including two Edge 350s. Never had a problem. Why would you wait?


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## Mojo Man (Sep 1, 2007)

svbackstreets said:


> Since 1992 I've purchased eight new Garmin GPS including two Edge 350s. Never had a problem. Why would you wait?


For the bugs to be worked out?

Mojo


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Mojo Man said:


> For the bugs to be worked out?
> 
> Mojo


It's a known concern that early adopters will have to deal with bugs. You clearly recognize this, so why are you asking us?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

The perfect date will be 11/11/11, at precisely 11:11:11 am UTC; all the planets will be aligned and the universe will be in mathematical harmony.


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## Mojo Man (Sep 1, 2007)

NateHawk said:


> It's a known concern that early adopters will have to deal with bugs. You clearly recognize this, so why are you asking us?


I'm asking WHEN will a safe date be, this is solely based on peoples experiance with Garmin since I have non. It's a big ticket item for me and I don't want to get the first generation lemon.

Mojo


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Mojo Man said:


> I'm asking WHEN will a safe date be, this is solely based on peoples experiance with Garmin since I have non. It's a big ticket item for me and I don't want to get the first generation lemon.
> 
> Mojo


Your guess is as good as anyone else's.


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## svbackstreets (Mar 31, 2007)

I have never heard of bugs in new model Garmins. Once the hardware is done that should be it. Possibly there would be firmware updates that you could install. To my knowledge Garmin has never introduced a first generation lemon and there have been no second generation models of GPSs. Just new models.


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## PissedOffCil (Oct 18, 2007)

svbackstreets said:


> I have never heard of bugs in new model Garmins. Once the hardware is done that should be it. Possibly there would be firmware updates that you could install. To my knowledge Garmin has never introduced a first generation lemon and there have been no second generation models of GPSs. Just new models.


Huh... Garmin ahve a bad reputation of having many bugs in tehir firmware for the first 5 or so versions. It's almost always the same problems that pop up with every new unit...


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

svbackstreets said:


> I have never heard of bugs in new model Garmins. Once the hardware is done that should be it. Possibly there would be firmware updates that you could install. To my knowledge Garmin has never introduced a first generation lemon and there have been no second generation models of GPSs. Just new models.


LOL...read up on some of the bugs that persist in the Edge 705 to this day. Or read about the initial release of the Colorado or the persistent battery connection/vibration troubles in the eTrex line.

Nothing has really been bad enough to turn an early release into a lemon, but they have been really annoying problems that people have to deal with. One situation where early-gen units had insufficient hardware was with the Oregon series. The early x00 models had screens with poor visibility. Garmin then released the x50 models which demonstrated an improved screen. These are all examples of early release hiccups Garmin had to deal with. Most are software troubles that eventually get dealt with through firmware release, but hardware troubles are not unknown.


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## erginguney (Dec 30, 2005)

svbackstreets said:


> I have never heard of bugs in new model Garmins. Once the hardware is done that should be it. Possibly there would be firmware updates that you could install. To my knowledge Garmin has never introduced a first generation lemon and there have been no second generation models of GPSs. Just new models.


You need to read this (about one of their latest models):

Update on Garmin GPSMAP 62 series performance


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

svbackstreets said:


> I have never heard of bugs in new model Garmins. Once the hardware is done that should be it. Possibly there would be firmware updates that you could install. To my knowledge Garmin has never introduced a first generation lemon and there have been no second generation models of GPSs. Just new models.


You need to get out more! 

My 60CSx had major bugs for the first three years, finally great.
My 305 had major bugs, finally ok after 18 months.
My 705 has been good, but battery indicator problems, elevation problems.
Look at the software updates Garmin has done.
There was a 3.20 update that killed many units.
https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?t=9901
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=636102


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Not an early release issue, but yes...the 3.20 firmware update bricked my Edge 705, and I had to send it back to Garmin and get a refurb.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

In stock, http://twitter.com/Garmin, for the brave and foolish.... fools rush in......


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## Pedalfaraway (Jan 19, 2004)

*There are 2 advantages to waiting.*

1. As discussed the Bugs with the units tend to get worked out in the first year they are availible.

2. The prices tend to come down as well.

Personally I would wait till at least 2012 to purchase an 800 by then any bugs should be resovled or at least well know and I bet it will be 100 dollars cheaper. Plus garmin might introduce a new garmin edge 900 at interbike that will make the 800 obsolete and cheaper.


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## Batas (Jan 16, 2004)

Pedalfaraway said:


> 1. As discussed the Bugs with the units tend to get worked out in the first year they are availible.
> 
> 2. The prices tend to come down as well.
> 
> Personally I would wait till at least 2012 to purchase an 800 by then any bugs should be resovled or at least well know and I bet it will be 100 dollars cheaper. Plus garmin might introduce a new garmin edge 900 at interbike that will make the 800 obsolete and cheaper.


 And if you wait another year, than you could buy the edge 1000... Sorry, but that makes no sense.


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## svbackstreets (Mar 31, 2007)

slocaus said:


> You need to get out more!
> 
> My 60CSx had major bugs for the first three years, finally great.
> My 305 had major bugs, finally ok after 18 months.
> ...


Actually I get out a lot. Since 1990 I've used 8 different Garmin GPS for biking, hiking, offshore sailing, paragliding and auto travel. We cruised Mexico for twelve years depending on our Garmins for all twelve years. I've used my Edge 305 daily for about four years. I've done all the updates on every unit without a problem.

I remember sending one unit back for repair out of the eight. Except for that all the units have worked for all the major functuions, e.g. location, speed etc., all the time.

Just my personal, anecdotal, experience. Your experience may differ.


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## Pedalfaraway (Jan 19, 2004)

*Makes Perfect sense.*



Batas said:


> And if you wait another year, than you could buy the edge 1000... Sorry, but that makes no sense.


The units that are one generation old cost less then when they were new, and function better. what does not make sense. Its true this strategy will maximize value and you will never have the latest and greatest unit. The edge 305 is a perfect example. They were like 400 dollars when they first came out, and now have updated hardware, and software for less then 200. Get more pay less how does that not make sense.


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## Mojo Man (Sep 1, 2007)

Actually, many people are having the glass touch screen chip/crack around the corners/edges. They seem to chip/crack just by trying to remove dirt from the corners with your finger nail.

Sounds like a serious problem from my end. After all, aren't these things suposed to be some what durable for Mtn bike use?

Mojo:madman: :madmax:


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## Coach417 (Jul 13, 2007)

I will find out tomorrow how the 800 fairs. Mine should be arriving via FedEx. Mine was new for $360. I will update as I go.


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## anotherguy (Oct 13, 2010)

I've had mine on my road bike for a couple weeks and it has been great so far. I'll order a speed/cadence sensor for my MTB this week and will be able to report back on MTB use in a few weeks.


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*A couple weeks ago*



Mojo Man said:


> When do you think it will be a safe bet to purchase the new 800 edge?
> Mojo


A couple weeks ago seemed like a good time.

http://connect.garmin.com:80/activity/embed/58792521​


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## BoomingSooner (May 13, 2008)

If you already have a HR monitor, do you have to buy the "bundle"?


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## PainkillerSPE (Feb 15, 2009)

BoomingSooner said:


> If you already have a HR monitor, do you have to buy the "bundle"?


No. If you already have a ANT+ HR Monitor it will work.


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## BoomingSooner (May 13, 2008)

Just took the plunge yesterday. I'm relocating to Phoenix and thought having the ability to find my way out of the desert might be a good thing. 

Still trying to figure out how to download trails. Is there a website out there you can get them? Thanks.


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*Garmin Connect*



BoomingSooner said:


> Still trying to figure out how to download trails. Is there a website out there you can get them? Thanks.


Garmin Connect. And get your free topo maps at GPSFileDepot. Then try this trail, but not in the middle of summer.


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## KentM (Aug 10, 2010)

BoomingSooner said:


> Just took the plunge yesterday. I'm relocating to Phoenix and thought having the ability to find my way out of the desert might be a good thing.


Check out the May 2011 issue of Mountain Bike Action. There is a great article on Phoenix mountain biking. It describes great parks and trails.


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## norcal2 (Nov 23, 2005)

Wherewolf said:


> Garmin Connect. And get your free topo maps at GPSFileDepot. Then try this trail, but not in the middle of summer.


hey wherewolf..im in Auburn also, live on the canyon we ride the same trails! i have the edge 500, if i were to do it over again id get the map function of the 800 just for the mapping functions showing up on the larger screen which i dont have in the 500, other wise the 500 has been great, how is the battery life though?


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*Battery*



norcal2 said:


> hey wherewolf..im in Auburn also, live on the canyon we ride the same trails! i have the edge 500, if i were to do it over again id get the map function of the 800 just for the mapping functions showing up on the larger screen which i dont have in the 500, other wise the 500 has been great, how is the battery life though?


I've never had a battery issue. But I don't think I've ever had it on for more than 10 hours. I have to drive two hours to Auburn but it is worth it!


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## BoomingSooner (May 13, 2008)

Wherewolf said:


> Garmin Connect. And get your free topo maps at GPSFileDepot. Then try this trail, but not in the middle of summer.


That trail looks awesome. I will definitely try and find it!

I did manage to download it to the 800!


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## BoomingSooner (May 13, 2008)

Is it possible to trim an activity?
I thought I stopped the recording, but didn't. I want to have the proper trail in memory.

Is it possible to truncate the part that is messed up? I couldn't find out how to do it.
Thanks.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

BoomingSooner said:


> Is it possible to trim an activity?
> I thought I stopped the recording, but didn't. I want to have the proper trail in memory.
> 
> Is it possible to truncate the part that is messed up? I couldn't find out how to do it.
> Thanks.


Garmin Mapsource (free) tutorial on how here.
TopoFusion will do it, there is a free trial version that may have some limited edit ability, I bought it so long ago that I do not remember. www.topofusion.com


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## GrannyGearGnome (May 12, 2007)

Wherewolf said:


> Garmin Connect. And get your free topo maps at GPSFileDepot. Then try this trail, but not in the middle of summer.


I notice there is no Ohio Northeast United States Topo maps part 2 of 3. Anyone know where this is?


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## GrannyGearGnome (May 12, 2007)

BoomingSooner said:


> That trail looks awesome. I will definitely try and find it!
> 
> I did manage to download it to the 800!


Did you download directly to internal memory or micro SD card?


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## ToddM (Feb 3, 2004)

You can pretty well buy them when the first come out and this is why. I like to wait 3-6 months after they come out just because you can't trust magazine reviews or pre-production sample reviews. That time lets enough units get out to see if there are major hardware problems, battery life problems, people can compare screen brightness, and signal strength etc. and it gives you an idea if the software features are going to work for your needs. Many problems or issues don't show up until enough customers are using them and trying to do certain things with the units that don't come up in reviews. 

Garmin does release a lot of buggy units, but it's all firmware that is updated over time. The hardware itself is almost never changed. I think think of any units that had any real hardware changes to them along their product life, unless it was a feature change such as color screens, memory cards, serif III etc. 

So if the product does what you want, and it seems there are no major hardware problems right off the bat, then buy away but be aware there will be software bugs that will be fixed with firmware updates over time. 

I've had a Edge 705 for years, and while it's a good unit, many have been buggy since day one, but it's software not hardware usually, however they have fixed a LOT of issues since it's was released and it's pretty solid now. I still have to do hard resets on mine once and awhile to keep it working without a hiccup. Usually it's problems picking up the cadence/HR sensors or it crashes loading maps. Some of it is simple features I'd like to see, but garmin is good at building in feature limitations to keep you buying different units. That and frankly garmin is good about fixing problems, but not good about adding software features users request. So if a unit does not have a feature you want, don't buy it thinking they will add it down the road. 

IMO the etrex, and 60/76 series are the last really solid units garmin has produced, everything since has been a mixed bag of poor battery life, dim displays, poor feature sets, crippled software, etc.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

ToddM said:


> IMO the etrex, and 60/76 series are the last really solid units garmin has produced, everything since has been a mixed bag of poor battery life, dim displays, poor feature sets, crippled software, etc.


So how many of these supposedly sub-par models have you used?


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## ToddM (Feb 3, 2004)

I haven't used the new edge units yet, only played shortly with the 62/78, or new montana. The montana looks promising but so did the colorado and oregon. Frankly after the colorado and oregon, I was pretty done with garmin for awhile. Perhaps the new Montana will change that. If I needed a new gps I'd still be getting an etrex legend hcx, or perhaps a 62 just for the higher amount of saved tracks over the 60, though for what you can buy a 60 for right now those things are a huge deal. 

For hard field use I don't feel touch screens (at least without using a screen pen) on these consumer units are durable enough or precise enough when you want to pick out a specific point on the screen or navigate the screen, screen brightness has suffered so has battery life, all of those things are huge negatives in the field. Also the interfaces of the colorado/oregon are not as user adjustable as far as what information is shown, and in most cases the fonts/boxes are larger than they need to be. They are more user friendly for new gps users I'm sure, but I'd rather have more information. In addition both the colorado and oregon had issues leaking water. The new hi speed USB is nice, but on older units you just load maps to the card using a card reader instead of through the device to get higher transfer speeds. The separate power cable setup of the 60/76 was also more durable than the current all in on USB plug for those that like to power the device with a cord. I've seen quite a few garmin units come back that were used on atv's, dirt bikes, etc. hardwired with USB connection failures, never saw one with the old style power plug.

About the only thing garmin has done right in the past few years is integration of satellite imagery, the third axis compass, and increasing the max saved tracks, which all were sadly way overdue from them and other manufacturers introduced long ago and customers had been requesting for over a decade. 

I've used:

12, 12c, most of the etrex line, 60 and 76 variants, colorado, oregon

edge 305, 705

A couple dozen Nuvi's and a Zumo

Foretrex 201, 301, 401

forerunner 405 and one of the old bulky ones 305 or 205 I think.

Hopefully the Montana, will prove to be a great unit.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

with regards to your comments about battery life, and display brightness, you realize these things are compromises with high resolution screens that people want, right?

Make the screen as bright as an iphone and you're not going to last very long on a set of AA's. So, to maintain some semblance of battery life, the high res screen needs some dimming.

The comments about poor feature sets and crippled software seem to be based heavily on opinion of specific uses (that do not exactly relate directly to mtb use).

I, for one, haven't had a single issue with the usb power/data interface. I don't power my receiver in the field, though. I hike, geocache, mountain bike, and canoe with mine, and that's not even an option. Waterproofness is also not an issue.

I also haven't had any issues with the touch screen, and I don't even use a screen protector. I don't have problems putting the cursor where I need it on the map screen with my finger, but what's stopping someone from using a stylus if they need one?

There are areas where every manufacturer can make improvements on their equipment, IMO, but most of the comments you're making just don't hold water for the people on this forum.


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## ToddM (Feb 3, 2004)

Yes run there are compromises with color screens, resolution, backlight brightness with runtime, and with features, faster processors etc. 

However, I don't need or want a screen that has HD resolution, I don't want to watch videos on my GPS, I'd rather have reasonable resolution, and MORE battery life, when I ride in moab for two weeks I don't want to have to charge the unit EVERY day. The same is true for back light, yes having it brighter uses more battery, but give the user a wider range of user selectable brightness. It's been a double whammy because the higher resolution screens they use it seems the harder they are to see without a backlight even in good sunlight. So now you have to use the backlight more even in bright light further reducing battery life. 

Bike specific, okay, how about the fact garmin STILL has not put an auto start on it's riding timers. Yes you can set it so while riding it will start and stop automatically if you do, but give the rider an option for not having to press the start button at the beginning of a ride and the stop button at the end (the 800 may do this). Edge users since day ONE have been asking for this feature. Every popular cycling computer as long as I can remember has had this feature and those that didn't it was always complained about. 

Here's another one, add support for tracks, yes I understand the usefulness of courses, and being able to race against previous laps etc. etc. but tracks are what garmin users are used to transitioning from other units, and lots of users have tracks they want to use across other units without converting constantly.

Another one.....get RID of the track, course, coursepoint, waypoint, route limitations on the units, allow users to store them on the cards, with memory being the only limitation. This again been requested and complained about since garmin first started making GPS's. 

The 800 I hear is better, but the HR based calorie calculation the 705 uses is a joke! I had a 1:15 ride today, moderate and was told I burned almost 1500 calories, not likely.

My edge 705 also has issues turning on, sometimes you can turn it on just pressing the button, sometimes you have to do it repeatedly, sometimes you need to hold it for several seconds, also my unit likes to change the user info screen on the bike if I hit a good bump/jump/drop off. Again that's just my unit and doesn't seem representative of them as a whole, though I've heard of a few doing the auto screen swap when jarred. 

I'm not saying the Edge is a bad unit, or doesn't work for many cyclists, and in some ways it seems the 800 has improved. just that it could have been improved upon easily with firmware adding user requested features in it's effective product life and it wasn't. Garmin has never been big on adding features with firmware only fixing bugs.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Whoa dude, feet up, pop a brewski, /rant off.

So what *ARE* you using for a GPS that does all these things that Garmin sucks (sic) at?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

ToddM said:


> Yes run there are compromises with color screens, resolution, backlight brightness with runtime, and with features, faster processors etc.
> 
> However, I don't need or want a screen that has HD resolution, I don't want to watch videos on my GPS, I'd rather have reasonable resolution, and MORE battery life, when I ride in moab for two weeks I don't want to have to charge the unit EVERY day. The same is true for back light, yes having it brighter uses more battery, but give the user a wider range of user selectable brightness. It's been a double whammy because the higher resolution screens they use it seems the harder they are to see without a backlight even in good sunlight. So now you have to use the backlight more even in bright light further reducing battery life.


which Oregon have you used? I am using an Oregon 450 and find it MORE visible in bright direct sunlight without any backlight at all. Viewing angle matters a lot when you're dealing with shady/indirect light...but compared to my cell phone which also uses a resistive screen, it's light years better. I can't use my cell phone at all when there's any sunlight whatsoever. I can't see anything.



> Bike specific, okay, how about the fact garmin STILL has not put an auto start on it's riding timers. Yes you can set it so while riding it will start and stop automatically if you do, but give the rider an option for not having to press the start button at the beginning of a ride and the stop button at the end (the 800 may do this). Edge users since day ONE have been asking for this feature. Every popular cycling computer as long as I can remember has had this feature and those that didn't it was always complained about.


One annoyance I had with the Edge 705 I owned for awhile, and one reason I don't own one anymore. I use Topofusion with my Oregon 450 and TF tells me my stopped time, flat time, uphill time, and downhill time. I don't rely on the GPS to give me these metrics. I just let the GPS go, collecting points along the whole way. I let my analysis software sort out the details.



> Here's another one, add support for tracks, yes I understand the usefulness of courses, and being able to race against previous laps etc. etc. but tracks are what garmin users are used to transitioning from other units, and lots of users have tracks they want to use across other units without converting constantly.


??? this one I don't get. AFAIK, you've always been able to follow a saved track on the Edge models. You certainly can on every handheld model.



> Another one.....get RID of the track, course, coursepoint, waypoint, route limitations on the units, allow users to store them on the cards, with memory being the only limitation. This again been requested and complained about since garmin first started making GPS's.


Yes, I get this one. I want to be able to use ALL of the memory on my memory cards. I also wish to eliminate map tile limits, too. Give me folders where I can store groups of waypoints, tracks, routes, and maps. Let me search those files from the GPS. I won't argue with this one, but it's a relatively minor quibble in all honesty.



> The 800 I hear is better, but the HR based calorie calculation the 705 uses is a joke! I had a 1:15 ride today, moderate and was told I burned almost 1500 calories, not likely.


All calorie calculations on the receiver are pretty much useless for real measurements. All they're really good for is getting very general ideas. How do you expect the GPS to know everything it needs to know to take a scientific measurement of your metabolism?



> My edge 705 also has issues turning on, sometimes you can turn it on just pressing the button, sometimes you have to do it repeatedly, sometimes you need to hold it for several seconds, also my unit likes to change the user info screen on the bike if I hit a good bump/jump/drop off. Again that's just my unit and doesn't seem representative of them as a whole, though I've heard of a few doing the auto screen swap when jarred.
> 
> I'm not saying the Edge is a bad unit, or doesn't work for many cyclists, and in some ways it seems the 800 has improved. just that it could have been improved upon easily with firmware adding user requested features in it's effective product life and it wasn't. Garmin has never been big on adding features with firmware only fixing bugs.


Sounds to me like you (and others) have some issues you need to talk to Garmin's CS about. I had an issue with a firmware update of the 705 bricking my receiver. I got an exchange no problem within the warranty period. The 705 didn't fit my uses, so it got replaced with a receiver that did. It sounds like some of these issues involve using the wrong product for the intended use. That's not Garmin's fault.


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## ToddM (Feb 3, 2004)

The new screens might be more visible without backlight compared to a cell phone, but put a new colorado next to a old 60csx in various light conditions without the backlights on, the 60csx is easier to view in almost every condition.



NateHawk said:


> ??? this one I don't get. AFAIK, you've always been able to follow a saved track on the Edge models. You certainly can on every handheld model.


That was my bad, what I meant to convey was that I want to be able to see multiple tracks/rides/courses on the Map at the same time, similar to what you can do with a 60/76/etrex. There are many times where a system of trails branches off each other etc. that you want to be able to see more than one track/course/ride at a time represented on a zoomed out map for general navigation on the bike. For example where loops connect or branch off it's nice to be able to see where they do esp. in very congested trail systems.

As far as I've been able to find the edge will only show one user selected track/course/etc. at a time. As an aside the width of that track/course line on the Edge is WAY too thick, and covers too much map at any zoom level, but it's probably a trade off for quick visibility from the bike. Though I typically don't actually try to "ride" the course from the GPS info while riding.

Similar to what basemap or mapsource will do with multiple tracks loaded, you still see them all represented when zoomed out.

In addition there's no good way I've found yet to combine multiple loops, track branches, etc. into a single track without having crazy artifacts as the software tries to force them to all connect.



NateHawk said:


> All calorie calculations on the receiver are pretty much useless for real measurements. All they're really good for is getting very general ideas. How do you expect the GPS to know everything it needs to know to take a scientific measurement of your metabolism?


Polar seems to have done a pretty good job with calorie estimates just using HR and basic user info for decades. It's not perfect of course, but it's a heck of a lot closer than garmin is using the same HR input, with all the new running/exercise HR/gps units garmin is releasing they should be able to get it within reason. I've heard this is improved on the 800 as well. I don't really care that much I just think it's amusing when I see my ride calories and they are almost always double what I'd guess they really are.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

ToddM said:


> I want to be able to see multiple tracks/rides/courses on the Map at the same time, similar to what you can do with a 60/76/etrex. There are many times where a system of trails branches off each other etc. that you want to be able to see more than one track/course/ride at a time represented on a zoomed out map for general navigation on the bike. For example where loops connect or branch off it's nice to be able to see where they do esp. in very congested trail systems.
> 
> As far as I've been able to find the edge will only show one user selected track/course/etc. at a time.
> 
> ...


I agree here. There are two ways to do it. The first will work for all Garmins - take all that trail data and condense it into a trail network and turn it into a Garmin Base Map you can load in Mapsource/Basecamp. This is really the best way to do it, but to do it right, it really takes a decent bit of time to get the data from multiple tracks simplified into a single network (and a LOT of riding).

The second way to do it is to use the Garmin Custom Maps feature for the raster-compatible models and make a .kmz of the trail network. The unfortunate thing here is that the raster resolution isn't great and the line width of the trails is fixed once it's loaded onto the GPS. It will work in a pinch, but after using it that way last fall, I was left a bit dissatisfied with the quality.



> Polar seems to have done a pretty good job with calorie estimates just using HR and basic user info for decades. It's not perfect of course, but it's a heck of a lot closer than garmin is using the same HR input, with all the new running/exercise HR/gps units garmin is releasing they should be able to get it within reason. I've heard this is improved on the 800 as well. I don't really care that much I just think it's amusing when I see my ride calories and they are almost always double what I'd guess they really are.


Well, since Polar's calculations are proprietary, and they've had an awful lot longer to develop them than Garmin has to develop their own, I can't expect Garmin to get it spot on the first time around.


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