# Building Without Welding



## EigerSA (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi all. I've been keen to get started on building my own frame out of steel but in my neck of the woods (Durban, South Africa) a lot of the welding equipment is either not available or is "industrial" type equipment (read: serious cash outlay), and hobby courses teaching welding/brazing or even frame building is unheard of. So I've been thinking of alternative build methods.

I did come across a comment on another cycle forum where the guy mentioned his frame being glued. So I started wondering about epoxies and such on a lugged bike build. 

Anyone got further information? With the advanced types of glues available, I would've thought a glued/epoxied lug would be stronger than a brazed/welded lug. Thoughts?


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

Brazing is pretty common method for building with steel.

I have no practical experience, but apparently brazing can be done with less sophisticated heat sources and the result can be very good.
(practice with some scraps before committing any good tubes...)


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

Lugs? If you can make the lugs, you can weld/braze a frame. Aluminum road bikes were "bonded" when they first became popular in the 70's....search for Alan.........
Brazing requires only a torch and filler rod. Most plumbers have enough tools to do this.

Check out the bamboo frames that have been posted, that is probable your best bet!


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

Lugs can be bought, just like tube kits. Of course, if you buy lugs, they have to match the angles that you want.


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## EigerSA (Apr 23, 2009)

I've got what's needed tool-wise (as in plumbing equipment), but it just seems so much easier to mix up some epoxy, smear in and let cure. Even the quick-dry epoxies take a few minutes, giving you time to check your frame is all nice and square. And wouldn't gluing mean avoiding your frame twisting or something like it would with a torch and all that? I can't help but think things would go together so much easier? And I would buy the lugs.

The info I have found pertains mostly to bamboo bikes, but I still can't help thinking that it should work for steel as well. Anyone have any hints/tips/info they can share?


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

Follow your thoughts to conclusion, in this case the frame ends. How would you attach the dropouts? See what I mean?
Really, there are no shortcuts. A silverbrazed joint will take no more time than an epoxied joint to create once you figure in clean up time. I'm having trouble believing that a torch, hacksaw and files are difficult to come by anywhere in the world.
Heres a project for you which will be relatively cheap. Purchase a couple of tubesets complete with lugs and just miter them up into full frames while you decide what joining method is going to work for you. This is the fun part of the build anyway, you will enjoy it. At this point you may find that what you are asking to do isn't very realistic and you don't want to waste your hard work anyway. Don't fear the fire!

Edit, I just read you last post again and see that you have the equipment that you need, just get some practice lugs and have a go at it, it's really simple and will be much safer in the end.
cheers.


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

> if you buy lugs, they have to match the angles that you want.


Go ahead find them. I only know of road bike lugs, the angles are different. If you know of a place that sells MTB usable lugs, please post. South Africa has a large military industrial complex, lots of tubes and welders. Epoxy does not take shocks very well, it is rather brittle.
Stick with bamboo, or get a good plumber! Look up Alan!!!!!


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## EigerSA (Apr 23, 2009)

True except I can't find an suppliers of chromoly at all. I'm going to import the tubing/lugs ect... the welding I can do myself, I'm pretty hands-on so I know I'd pick it up quick, I just was curious if it was possible with epoxy.

@j-ro: Thanks, gonna give it a shot


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

EigerSA said:


> True except I can't find an suppliers of chromoly at all.


Check the supplier sticky thread here:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=595808

Dillsberg, Wicks Aircraft, Aircraft Spruce and possibly MSC all sell straight gauge chromoly. 
Also try http://www.shapirosupply.com/ or http://www.onlinemetals.com/


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

EigerSA said:


> True except I can't find an suppliers of chromoly at all. I'm going to import the tubing/lugs ect... the welding I can do myself, I'm pretty hands-on so I know I'd pick it up quick, I just was curious if it was possible with epoxy.


You would have problems in that the lugs and dropouts would generally not offer enough surface area for epoxy, and you would have to worry about corrosion.

In the mid-eighties Raleigh (or at least the US division) was selling bikes under the name "Technium" made with special steel lugs bonded to aluminum tubes (and vice versa) so it certainly can be done with the right lug design and some knowledge of aerospace adhesives and surface treatments.

Another thing to consider is that often these sort of construction methods have some sort of mechanical interlock to add some safety should the glue fail. The tubes on Alans were actually threaded into the lugs, so there was no way a tube could pull out.

Seeing that Durban is on the coast - another option for you would be to build a carbon fiber frame with a foam core - you use a similar technique to building surfboards. Also, if windsurfing and sailing is popular there you might be able to get pieces of carbon fiber booms and then join them using a wrapped joint like the bamboo bikes that are in vogue right now.


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## HomeGrownSS (Jan 18, 2006)

dr.welby said:


> The tubes on Alans were actually threaded into the lugs, so there was no way a tube could pull out.


glued and screwed baby!

c.itoh/kabuki also had some glued/screwed frames, except they used stainless tubes and cast aluminum lugs!


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

dr.welby said:


> Seeing that Durban is on the coast - another option for you would be to build a carbon fiber frame with a foam core - you use a similar technique to building surfboards.


We have this guy in town who does a lot of smaller carbon fiber stuff... and he has built himself a roadie Time Trial frame mainly out of insulation foam, carbon fiber, and epoxy. What sort of material, exactly, and how you orient the fibers can be really crucial there.

I bet Google can find sites on building a DIY carbon fiber bike frame.


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## EigerSA (Apr 23, 2009)

There's a supplier of carbon fiber in Durban, I already looked at that and as a last resort I would have a bash, I've built plenty out of fiber-glass and I realize they are two different materials but I reckon it shouldn't be too big a deal. And there are plenty web-sites with tutorials, the best one that comes to mind is Bruno Meres (think that's the spelling).

I used to make furniture for a living so the first thing that came to mind was "glue and screw", but I reckon that would just start getting more complicated.

I looking at building a commuter and a cyclocross bike, those are bikes we just don't get in South Africa, most of our stuff is mtb's and road bikes. Thanks everyone for the replies!
Much appreciated.


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