# personal space issues



## beegirl (Apr 23, 2005)

I ride once a week with a friend/coworker. The trail is right by work, so we know it pretty well. I always ask if she wants to lead or follow and she prefers that I lead. It's partially b/c I tend to make it up the hills and she doesn't always. Also, she hates it when we see snakes so she likes for me to go first.
A few weeks ago I was going up a very short/steep dry creek bed type area. At the top, my back tire spun out a little and I think I had enough momentum to make it, but the next thing I knew, she had crashed into me from behind. I tried to laugh it off, but she made an annoyed comment. I told her that I thought she shouldn't follow so closely on that section.
Yesterday, same thing, I hit a root wrong on a steep uphill which slowed me down for a second or two and then she lightly crashes into me. She got annoyed at me b/c she lost her momentum and couldn't make it to the top. I wanted to lose my temper but instead just implied that it was more her fault.
I've never crashed with anyone else, but am no expert, so not sure what to think. Is this normal. What would Ms. Manners say?


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## *rt* (Jan 15, 2004)

beegirl said:


> I ride once a week with a friend/coworker. The trail is right by work, so we know it pretty well. I always ask if she wants to lead or follow and she prefers that I lead. It's partially b/c I tend to make it up the hills and she doesn't always. Also, she hates it when we see snakes so she likes for me to go first.
> A few weeks ago I was going up a very short/steep dry creek bed type area. At the top, my back tire spun out a little and I think I had enough momentum to make it, but the next thing I knew, she had crashed into me from behind. I tried to laugh it off, but she made an annoyed comment. I told her that I thought she shouldn't follow so closely on that section.
> Yesterday, same thing, I hit a root wrong on a steep uphill which slowed me down for a second or two and then she lightly crashes into me. She got annoyed at me b/c she lost her momentum and couldn't make it to the top. I wanted to lose my temper but instead just implied that it was more her fault.
> I've never crashed with anyone else, but am no expert, so not sure what to think. Is this normal. What would Ms. Manners say?


IMO, it's her own fault if she crashes into you. the rider behind has the responsibility to keep a safe distance back so that they don't run into the rider in front. if she gets pissed that you killed her momentum (because _she_ ran into you) then if i were you i'd suggest that maybe she should lead.

rt - is not shy to comment when someone is following too close


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## Maida7 (Apr 29, 2005)

*rt* said:


> IMO, it's her own fault if she crashes into you. the rider behind has the responsibility to keep a safe distance back so that they don't run into the rider in front. if she gets pissed that you killed her momentum (because _she_ ran into you) then if i were you i'd suggest that maybe she should lead.
> 
> rt - is not shy to comment when someone is following too close


True but the stalled rider needs to clear the trail as soon as posible and cheer on the following riders to make it farther without stalling. Now if she's right on your a$$ then it's her fault. But if you just lay in the middle of the trail blocking up the works then your are also to blame. I hate riders who follow close especialy on downhills. I'm no speed demon and in general I prefer to follow but I leave plenty of room and only enter the techy sections after the front rider has had thier chance to clear it.


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## beegirl (Apr 23, 2005)

*thanks*

Thanks for the explanations. I'm guessing that since my stalling only lasted literally 1 second one time and 1-2 seconds the second time, I cleared the trail fast enough.


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## Maida7 (Apr 29, 2005)

1-2 second sounds pretty quick for getting out of the way. I think as long as you make a good effort to clear the way for the following riders your OK. And if shes following to close then thats her problem. Relax enjoy the ride.


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## aword4you (Jul 25, 2005)

Definitely agree. Maybe it's her time to lead for a bit. Then when she misses you can say she ruined your momentum  Just kidding, that's probably not too friendly.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Maida7 said:


> True but the stalled rider needs to clear the trail as soon as posible and cheer on the following riders to make it farther without stalling. Now if she's right on your a$$ then it's her fault. But if you just lay in the middle of the trail blocking up the works then your are also to blame. I hate riders who follow close especialy on downhills. I'm no speed demon and in general I prefer to follow but I leave plenty of room and only enter the techy sections after the front rider has had thier chance to clear it.


Right of way, common courtesy, whatever - you don't get to run into people and then complain that they were in your way. Would the police (or your insurance company) see it your way if you rear-ended a car that you were following too closely and it stopped unexpectedly? If a car is broken down in the middle of the road can you just ram it for fun because it's "their fault" for being there?

If you were insisting on taking the lead, then I'd say you should let her lead, but if she's not wanting to do that - she needs to pay attention, keep a safe distance, and not run into you. My husband likes bumping friends wheels intentionally on occasion, which he thinks is funny. And occasionally it is... we were doing a climb and one guy declared he'd be waiting a long time for us at the top since he had his light new bike. So my husband bumped his rear tire and rang his bell right behind him all the way up the hill on his very heavy freeride bike. Okay, so that was funny.


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## dogzilla (Jun 7, 2006)

slap that in the face


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

beegirl said:


> I've never crashed with anyone else, but am no expert, so not sure what to think. Is this normal. What would Ms. Manners say?


I'd probably laugh the first time. Then I'd tell her to BTFO. Or lead.

Oh sorry, you were asking for Ms. Manners: I think what you do is say something like "the trail etiquette is to keep a safe following distance & leave enough stopping room between you & the rider in front of you in case they crash."

I mean, WTF, if she was that close to you & you'd wiped out bad & were lying in the trail, she'd probably have run you over. And she's ticked at you? Sheesh.

gabrielle


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## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

beegirl said:


> I've never crashed with anyone else, but am no expert, so not sure what to think. Is this normal. What would Ms. Manners say?


I agree with most everyone else. As long as you're prompt about clearing the trail when you don't make it, you're fine (and a couple of seconds is plenty prompt). She should stay farther back or take a turn in the lead. It can stink to lose your momentum because the person ahead of you stops, but when it happens to me I just smile, get off my bike (if I can't restart), and enjoy the walking break until I can get restarted. We're all out there to have fun.


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## cmaas73 (May 26, 2006)

yeah, she definitely needs to back off. i can't stand it when people are on my a$$. If you were haulin' a$$ down a hill and wiped out and she was following that closely, she'd be hurtin too. it's a good lesson to learn, and sometimes people learn the hard way.


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

This is a bad habit of mine. For some reason I tend to tailgate- guess it's my way of knowing I'm going as fast as I possibly can for the situation- but when somebody's behind ME, well it freaks me out 'cause my panic-braking guarantees a pileup.

I need to remember that OTHER people get annoyed by tailgaters.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Proper spacing is part of group riding.*

People stop unexpectedly and people don't have the energy to pay attention when they follow. It is no ones fault.
I'd like to make a point that has started to form in my mind lately. There is no established, officially sactioned, nor universally accepted book of rules for mountain biking. As such riders encounter each other in a myriad of ways causing shin burgers and hurt feelings. Just drift through this forum and you will see what I mean.
Mountain bikers tend to learn their craft on their own in within a cadre of other riders who probably discovered their skill and etiquette on their own. Consider the enconter beween two different groups from two different areas; what rules of behavior binds them together? Mountain Biek Action or Bike? MTBR downhill or women's Forums. Hmmm. Are the rules something spritiual which simply emerge as an epiphany once a rider reaches a certain level? What do people expect to happen, anyhow? I digress...often...but it will tie in one day.
Beegirl's situation is fundimental to all of that. She seems to be bringing someone along to break them into the sport and maybe even make a riding buddy. One of the biggest mistakes people make when they do this is to fail to understand how much training it takes to ride safely. I teach kids to to do this. It is my job; they have to listen to me or I send them home and call their parents. 
It is a lot different when you are with an adult. There is a tendancy to just see if they can hang and make sure that they are treated nicely and get back to the trailhead. It is sort of sink or swim with benefits. The whole girls thing is more, well, girly supportive wise but not too far off that mark. If a girl can't hang, well, they understand it may not be for them or may reach out a bit more. I think there is a forum for this. Oh, I'm in it. Dreadfully sorry.
One of the most misunderstood neccessities we have as coaches of kids is getting a group to ride without running into each other. Add to that an increase in speed as the season goes on and difficulty in terrain. We do a really great job and spend a lot of energy working this problem so it just doesn't happen or happens at low speeds. It is charming, really, to bring on a new coach and after a few months comeout and remark that the structure we applied early on used to piss them off but now they understood.
(I'm getting there, be patient.)
So, anyhow, when we ride we are constantly talking about spacing and room for error. I don't let ANYONE ride next to me unless I've ridden with them 1000 miles (whihc is about a season.) The funy thing is that after 1000 miles they understand. As I said before, though, these are kids in my charge. You are dealing with an adult.
Actually this person may be trying as hard as they can and using your wheel to pull them through. When you dabbed (dang!) I'm sure you weren't happy and she was at her limits and caught off guard. She was surprised when she ran into you (after all you are the great leader and why would you stop in the middle of the trail?) and embarrassed and disappointed. You were, too. What does fault have to do with this? Nothing at all. The parties involved tried to assign blame and that has nothing to do with anything. It was all driven by embarrassment, disappointment, frustration. 
So what to do? Never ride with that crazy beotch again? Read her the riot act and quote from the people who supported Beegirl's perspective and tell her that if she ever wants to ride mtb with anyone that she had better well straighten up? Yeah, you tell her!
No. Hurt feeling are not always someone else's fault.
When I ride with aduts of uh, varied skills, upon approaching a hazard, switchback, rock garden, steep gravelling hell-pitch I usually say something like " heys guys, I have some trouble with this spot, could you give me some room?" (Not that I ever dab, being the mtb god that I am.) 
Weird stuff happens when riding together. It is no one's fault.


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## irieness (Feb 22, 2004)

if you're within 10 feet of me when riding...I have no qualms about telling you to get the F away from me...

that reminds me...I was riding with my friend one time...and she's not much of a mtn biker...but rides a bike to commute everywhere...we were looking for a swimming spot and were on a normal, easy, easy trail...she was about 15-20 feet behind me and I stopped quickly to do a 90 degree turn down to the creek...needless to say, she wasn't paying attention and couldn't stop fast enough or have the skills to make the corner and she ran right into me and knocked me over...I laughed and thought it was funny...she got pissed and threw attitude...I just told her..."sorry, I guess I'm just used to riding with better riders." but she deserved it...


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*So....*

... basically she's blaming you for spinnig out... not making a techy climb? I'm with the others. She has to give you a few more seconds of gap.

It's like driving...

My wife was driving in stop and go traffic on the freeway once a few years back. Some teenage girl fresh from the DMV test in her new 5 class Beemer slammed into our rear bumper, taking out the rear hatch and compressing the rear frame like 2-3 inches. She hit our car pretty hard, but not so hard we couldn't drive it to the body shop. The teen gal got out of her car and was screaming at my wife, saying it was my wife's fault for 'stopping too fast'.

Your friend is making the same arguement.


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## Blue Sugar (Feb 16, 2004)

This is an excellent topic, and one we can all give an honest, unbiased asessment of. Since both of the protagonists are female, they'll be no tendency to "blame the man" whether its his fault or not. In this case, the following rider was at fault, even if she was a woman and the rider in front was a man. You should always leave som "bobble room" between you and the rider in front. How much you leave depends on the trail conditions and ability level of the rider in front of you.


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## asuperstar103 (May 31, 2006)

As far as I'm concerned, this is just like driving. If you hit somebody from behind in ur car it is your fault and u get a ticket. Bring some paper and pencil the next time and write this girl a ticket!!!!! Definitely her fault. Don't feel bad if you lose ur cool, its to be expected. If she cant follow at a safe distance make her lead and explain to her why u want her to lead. But most of all, enjoy yourself out there. Riding rules!!

http://www.superflysunglasses.com


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

This "problem" should not happen between friends no matter what the rules are because it's such a minor thing between friends. 

My riding pals and I enjoy "busting each other's balls" all the time. If your friend is not just "messing" with ya, and she really is negative about this situation, you need to move on. Life is too stressful on its own without having to worry about this crap. This type of situation should not be a problem between friends. I myself cannot imagine ever getting upset for real if my pal in front of me did not get out of the way on a climb. For crying out loud, the dude is my pal.


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## Maida7 (Apr 29, 2005)

Hey if you want to get her back just lead her thru a stream crossing. Halfway across the stream slow down just enough so she has to stop but you can still make it. Then nick name her wet foot. Nice dab wet foot!


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## tink bell (Mar 24, 2004)

i just 'rear ended' a buddy last night on a short, steep climb. we both were carrying great speed around the corner & into the climb, but he spun out & i kept going. i thought about this post & appologized immediately for following too closely. he laughed it off. no hurt feelings. guess i'm lucky to have chill pals.


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## SuperKat (Mar 27, 2005)

Chalk up another one for NO TAILGATING! It's bad enough we have to deal with it in cars...No way will I deal with it on a bike.


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## PrincipalRider (Jun 24, 2005)

Maybe you could put this sticker on your bike.


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## dirtmistress (Sep 2, 2005)

Most likely she is concentrating on getting up the hill and riding with her head down,possibly looking at the end of her front tire. You should tell her to look farther ahead and be prepared for obstacles,including you as an obstacle! Scanning the trail ahead improves mountain bike skills and I believe it would allow her to stop in time. On a hill,it doesnt take THAT much time to stop! She could also learn to track stand and then ride around you! One time on the Umpqua trail, I got rear-ended,kind of as a joke by my partner but when my derailler quit shifting it was no laughing matter. 100 bucks later! 
Also, years ago when I used to race, lead rider had the right of way. Don't know if that still holds true and obviously she is not a racer but this is an opportunity to teach her a few things about mtn. bike skills.


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## snowangel (Jun 6, 2006)

*tailgattor fixin'*

I second the stream crossing idea. My bf tailgates like crazy and i love to stop unexpectedly just to remind him to 'stay off my a$$'. Yeah, he usually slams into my back tire, but its definatly worth it. Most of the time he just laughs and says "sorry". This might work with your friend. Use the "spider" excuse if you need too... "there was a spider (snake, etc) crossing and I didn't want to kill it...but I agree with everyones posting....She's a crack**ore for blaming you.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I've had someone who tailgates tell me I need to say "stopping" when I'm slowing/stopping. I've never heard of such a thing... anyone?


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## tink bell (Mar 24, 2004)

formica said:


> I've had someone who tailgates tell me I need to say "stopping" when I'm slowing/stopping. I've never heard of such a thing... anyone?


i thought only freds did that on the road?


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## corporatehippy (Feb 24, 2006)

formica said:


> I've had someone who tailgates tell me I need to say "stopping" when I'm slowing/stopping. I've never heard of such a thing... anyone?


Its not a rule, by any means, but its a courtesy that we try to use on group rides when there's alot of riders all bunched up .. it really helps when someone stops ahead of me, and I know there's riders coming up behind me .. then i'll yell 'stopping' and it definitely decreases the drama .. and from experience, the warning is really nice ... :thumbsup:

In Michigan, our singletrack is tight and twisty .. so, the more info you can shout out to the riders behind you, the better it is ... we're also fond of yelling "sand" or "mud" when pits are excessive, because its common to come off a really sweet downhill into a trench of sand ..


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## antonio (Jan 18, 2005)

irieness said:


> ...I just told her..."sorry, I guess I'm just used to riding with better riders." but she deserved it...


I need to remember that one. Ouch.

Ant


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*So.....what we end up with is*

communicating with each other better to find out what each other's abilities are and expressing expectations. Not everyone knows how to ride with other people. Some don't know how to follow and some definitely don't know how to lead. How ya sposta find out?


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## skygod74 (May 3, 2006)

After reading this thread it makes me want to ride alone and far away from anyone else. Proper spacing is essential no matter what form of transportation you're riding:

Automobile: 3 second rule; stay out of the "no-zone" when following combination vehicles.

Aircraft: Contingent upon airspace, IFR/VFR status, weight class, etc.

Boating: Let's see, sufficient distance to avoid seeing the bloodshot, drunken eyes of the skipper.  

Biking: Far enough that I can turn my head and not see you behind me. Ride in control. Period.


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