# Saint M820 brake lever feel?



## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Currently running Hayes Stroker ACE brakes and the lever feel is absolutely solid - very little lever throw. I am looking into a set of Saint M820's. I came across someone on a ride that had Zee's. He was about to head off in the other direction so I just gave the levers a few pulls. Definitely had more lever travel. I don't know anything about the bleed or pad to rotor clearance. Few reviews on the Zee's did mention more lever travel than XT's. Comments on the Saints? Thanks.


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## ustemuf (Oct 12, 2009)

If you are looking for modulation, Shimano isn't really where you want to look...it's more on/off compared to the other top brands. What it has is more stopping power.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

ustemuf said:


> If you are looking for modulation, Shimano isn't really where you want to look...it's more on/off compared to the other top brands. What it has is more stopping power.


Modulation & power are not in question. I am referring to lever travel or "dead Band". Shimano has the "Free Stroke Adjustment but most will attest there is little difference made when adjusted. Here is a technical description leading to "dead band" :

Many hydraulic brake master cylinders operate in the same basic way. They typically include a master piston in a master cylinder which is actuated by a brake lever. A piston is moveable within the cylinder from a start position near a first end of the cylinder to a pressurized position near the second end of the cylinder. Between the first and second ends of the cylinder is a port in fluid communication between an inside of the cylinder and a hydraulic fluid reservoir. As the piston moves from the start position toward the port, hydraulic fluid flows from the port to the reservoir. Once the seal associated with the piston moves between the port and the second end of the cylinder, fluid within the second end of the cylinder and hydraulic lines in fluid communication with the caliper become pressurized and the caliper is actuated. The travel between the start position of the piston and the timing port is known as the "dead-band".


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## delirian (Jan 1, 2009)

i have the m820 saint, been using them since 2012 when they came out,,, personally i really like them, i like the lever shape, reach throw and feel, i think they modulate quite well. and stopping power is imense, they have a good range of adjusment to,
my only complaint as many others have found and the reason why most people gave up on them is their inconsistent bite point, 
the levers master cylinder has a design flaw in it that allows air into the system so you have to bleed them constantly like every few days, 
one time youll pull the lever it will work fine, next time there will be nothing, somtimes the bite point will be were youve set it at, somtimes it will bite at the top of its pull, other times it will bit in the middle, or right at the end as the lever hits the bar, like i said they are very inconsistent, and shimano wont recognise theres a problem, 
i have just learned to live with it, but it is quite sketchy somtimes lol, when the brake bites at the top of its pull, ( just as you pull the lever)


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## 11053 (Sep 19, 2009)

Like all Shimano brakes, you can fine tune lever feel of Saints to your preferences by floating the caliper pistons to reduce the initial space between pad and rotor. You'll feel an immediate change at the lever.
Shimano's free stroke adjustment actually does something. It's subtle but you will notice differences in brake and lever feel depending on where you set the adjustment.
From the combination of the above, you can set up Saints to feel exactly how you want. Instant engagement with minimal lever travel or a fair amount of lever travel before the brakes come full on.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

I have the Saints, Zees, and SLX brakes on my bikes, the Saint and Zee will have the same lever throw if the free stroke adjustment on the Saint is dialed all the way in. Measured at the tip of the lever, the Saint has 2mm more lever throw compared to the SLX. Not much, but you can definitely notice the difference. I recently finished the end of season maintenance on all my bikes everything is about as good as it gets.

As for Shimano's free stroke adjustment, I think most people just mistake it for a pad distance & contact point adjustment, which it isn't. It does exactly what it says it does, it adjust the free stroke.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

ustemuf said:


> If you are looking for modulation, Shimano isn't really where you want to look...it's more on/off compared to the other top brands. What it has is more stopping power.


I think most people that say this ....don't understand you don't have to press as hard...and they are use to pulling hard on lever to stop....Saints you fineese more


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## ustemuf (Oct 12, 2009)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> I think most people that say this ....don't understand you don't have to press as hard...and they are use to pulling hard on lever to stop....Saints you fineese more


Trust me, I know the difference.....and the Shimano modulation is way worse compared to SRAM.


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## ustemuf (Oct 12, 2009)

keen said:


> Modulation & power are not in question. I am referring to lever travel or "dead Band". Shimano has the "Free Stroke Adjustment but most will attest there is little difference made when adjusted. Here is a technical description leading to "dead band" .


I've been able to help the dead spot right after a fresh bleed... but it doesn't last long. There isn't much adjust-ability other than how far the lever is from your finger. Nothing to do about the dead band....I had it on my Saints and I have it on my XTR's now although not as bad.

Also to note...scariest **** ever when you grab a handful of brake and get NOTHING. Happened 3-4 times with the Saints. Never happened at all in my life with SRAM/Avid.

I'm pretty sure the same mechanical fault has caused some World Cup riders to crash...There is a lengthy thread on ridemonkey.com forums regarding the Saint brakes and the problems.

Saint 820 brakes inconsistent bite point - any fixes or solutions yet? | Ridemonkey.com


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

delirian said:


> i have the m820 saint, been using them since 2012 when they came out,,, personally i really like them, i like the lever shape, reach throw and feel, i think they modulate quite well. and stopping power is imense, they have a good range of adjusment to,
> my only complaint as many others have found and the reason why most people gave up on them is their inconsistent bite point,
> the levers master cylinder has a design flaw in it that allows air into the system so you have to bleed them constantly like every few days,
> one time youll pull the lever it will work fine, next time there will be nothing, somtimes the bite point will be were youve set it at, somtimes it will bite at the top of its pull, other times it will bit in the middle, or right at the end as the lever hits the bar, like i said they are very inconsistent, and shimano wont recognise theres a problem,
> i have just learned to live with it, but it is quite sketchy somtimes lol, when the brake bites at the top of its pull, ( just as you pull the lever)


Hmmm...Well I haven't seen many reviews like this. Anyone else have these issues.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

keen said:


> Hmmm...Well I haven't seen many reviews like this. Anyone else have these issues.


Yeah sure, all the issues in this thread are simple. The 4 pot calipers move more fluid than the 2 pot SLX/XT. A **** bleed will behave inconsistently. A mediocre bleed will go to **** as the pads wear. There will be more free stroke at the lever. The 4 pot brakes have a bit of sponginess when they first engage. They're not as grabby as the 2 pot brakes, but a light rider can still have issues. Ultimately power is about the same, with the 4 pots resisting fade better.

If you love the minimal movement of a hayes lever, the 4 pot shimanos have that less than the 2 pots, and neither feel as crappy as the hayes.

My avid elixers made the off-on-maxpower transition the most smoothly, but they were impossible to get a reliable bleed.


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## ustemuf (Oct 12, 2009)

keen said:


> Hmmm...Well I haven't seen many reviews like this. Anyone else have these issues.


Yes this is what I was saying about the modulation. I've grabbed brake and got nothing. Two pumps later and it's grabbing at the first 1/4". Makes you a better rider I guess LOL.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

My question would really be based on a properly bled brakeset w/ proper pad to rotor clearance. I don't understand why modulation is mentioned for lever travel. I'd define modulation as the ability to transfer power @ a rate of smooth consistency irregardless of lever travel.


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## ustemuf (Oct 12, 2009)

keen said:


> My question would really be based on a properly bled brakeset w/ proper pad to rotor clearance. I don't understand why modulation is mentioned for lever travel. I'd define modulation as the ability to transfer power @ a rate of smooth consistency irregardless of lever travel.


It matters because when you are trying to brake and one minute the lever starts modulating from 1/4" in and the next time it starts modulating when it's 1/2" in and so forth, it becomes a problem when trying use the brakes in quick situations. How much are you supposed to grab for? That's a modulation problem. It's directly connected to the inconsistent lever bite. How can lever travel and modulation not be linked? Silly.


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## StiHacka (Feb 2, 2012)

^ Ustemuf knows what he is talking about. I have Zees on two bikes (trail bike, DH bike) and they are quite awful when temperatures drop. One moment, lever goes all the way to bar. Next squeeze - locked wheel after a slightest touch. Follow with a slower one - all the way to the bar again. It is pretty annoying on a trail bike, but extremely nasty in a steep downhill run.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

ustemuf said:


> It matters because when you are trying to brake and one minute the lever starts modulating from 1/4" in and the next time it starts modulating when it's 1/2" in and so forth, it becomes a problem when trying use the brakes in quick situations. How much are you supposed to grab for? That's a modulation problem. It's directly connected to the inconsistent lever bite. How can lever travel and modulation not be linked? Silly.


 Engagement point is different than modulation imo. If that is your definition of engagement point... fine it works for you. Will a soggy lever cause braking problems yes. My original question is based on a set of properly functioning brakes. Didn't really want to get into whether or not Saint's were good brakes. FYI i'll stick w/ my Haye's brake.. they may have a so so rep but the lever is absolutely consistent.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

ustemuf said:


> It matters because when you are trying to brake and one minute the lever starts modulating from 1/4" in and the next time it starts modulating when it's 1/2" in and so forth, it becomes a problem when trying use the brakes in quick situations. How much are you supposed to grab for? That's a modulation problem. It's directly connected to the inconsistent lever bite. How can lever travel and modulation not be linked? Silly.


I'm sorry you can't figure out how to bleed brakes; something to work on. 4 piston shimano brakes don't tolerate a bad bleed. Neither do avid or older hayes.

Keen, i have a full spectrum of shimano brakes in service- XT, Zee, and previous generation deore. Last hayes brakes i had lots of experience with were stroker trails, but i think my experience with them is typical of modern hayes. (all hayes? my soles, 9s, and mags had a similar personality)

The strokers engage abruptly, but don't give you a big wallop of stop when they first engage. Then they respond in a pretty linear fashion to increased finger pressure until they don't have any more stop left. The lever doesn't really move once the pads engage. This sound like what you like?

OK, single piston shimano brakes give you a bigger initial stop when they first engage. That doesn't bother me since i am a big dude and that's not where i am locking brakes. From there there is a bit of lever movement when you squeeze harder, not as sensitive as the strokers, but since you can feel it with lever position i find it easier to mete out. I prefer the deore/XT feel to the strokers, and the XT brakes have some degree of adjustment in how they initially engage, but the contact point adjustment isn't really contact point adjustment.

Zees move a fair bit more at the lever before they engage, and then they do so subtly, without that big 'whoa' at the top of the engagement like 2 pot shimanos. Ultimately power is similar, and the lever can move a lot between engagement and lockup. I think they're perfect, but if you're accustomed to the pressure-only feel of hayes you may not like them. Mine have never faded, despite long steep descents with a 225lb rider and organic pads (recently switched to sintered). I push the deore/sintered/203mm brakes to their limit, but they haven't disappointed me; they're a fkn bargain. I'd take deore brakes over stroker trails.

The best brakes i've had for feel were elixir CRs. Smooth subtle engagement and plenty of power. I could never get them to behave consistently long term, a VERY common complaint. The shimano options all feel worse than those, but i don't mind at all now that i've adapted to that initial grab, and all mine are rock-solid reliable after ~2-3 years of ownership. It took me 2 bleeds to get the zees to not act like ustemuf complains about.


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## ustemuf (Oct 12, 2009)

scottzg said:


> I'm sorry you can't figure out how to bleed brakes; something to work on. 4 piston shimano brakes don't tolerate a bad bleed. Neither do avid or older hayes.


I hate to sound like a bigger a$$hole than you, but I'll put money I'm a much better mechanic than you and have been wrenching on my own bikes and motorcycles for over 20 years. I probably have more money in bicycle specific tools than you have in bikes. Wow, guess it wasn't hard to sound like more of an ass than you. Props to me.

It has nothing to do with the bleed, it's just a fault of the brakes. I'm giving you my experience as I am fortunate enough to have tried many different components over the years. If you haven't experienced the issue with the brakes, more power to you. Take it for what it's worth, I don't really care, but don't talk **** about wrenching ability when you have no clue.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

ustemuf said:


> I hate to sound like a bigger a$$hole than you, but I'll put money I'm a much better mechanic than you and have been wrenching on my own bikes and motorcycles for over 20 years. I probably have more money in bicycle specific tools than you have in bikes. Wow, guess it wasn't hard to sound like more of an ass than you. Props to me.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the bleed, it's just a fault of the brakes. I'm giving you my experience as I am fortunate enough to have tried many different components over the years. If you haven't experienced the issue with the brakes, more power to you. Take it for what it's worth, I don't really care, but don't talk **** about wrenching ability when you have no clue.


I dunno, i've found them to be easy to work with. i'm sorry they haven't worked for you, despite your experience.


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## pinkrobe (Jan 30, 2004)

I swear there's another thread on this exact subject, but I can't find it. Anyway, I had the inconsistent bite/engagement/to-the-bars issues with my M820s for the first season I had them. Scary and annoying, but it wasn't happening with the XT and SLX brakes on my other bikes. Bled, bled more, switched pads, gravity bleed, piston reset, bled some more - no love. Over the winter I found a thread on Vital or RideMonkey describing the issue and a potential "fix". At the beginning of this season, I tried the "fix" and did a caliper-up bleed and "cycled" the individual pistons so that they went all the way out and got pushed back in, one at a time, twice. Quel surprise, a big fat air bubble comes out of the caliper and into the syringe. Huh. Finished the bleed, buttoned everything up, quick test ride in that back alley and then hung it back on the hook.

A week later I did two full days of lift-accessed riding, and had no issues. So far, so good. Hung the bike on the hook when I got home and forgot about it [other bikes to ride]. Before heading to Whistler for a 6-day trip, I gave a quick bleed with just the funnel. Front was fine, the rear had a little air, no biggie. Rode 6 days at Whistler with no issues. Consistent feel, consistent power, no fiddling. Hung the bike up again. Went back to Whistler for a few days two months later, brakes were still good, no bleed required. Will the brakes stay good until next season? Maybe, but I'll bleed and test in the spring before chucking myself down a mountain.

I am neither a gifted rider nor a pro mechanic. I use my brakes a lot - likely too much. The thread I mentioned above said that there is sometimes air caught behind the pistons when the brakes are assembled at the factory, but not always, and it was specific to the 4-piston calipers. Get rid of the trapped air in the caliper, and the brake performance should improve significantly, which makes sense. A piston reset didn't do it, but pushing the individual pistons did. It worked for me, and it may work for others. As usual, YMMV.

Regarding cold-weather performance, when the calipers get cold, the tolerances get tighter and the seals don't allow the pistons to move as freely. This can result in instant-on braking or even full lock-up. The pour point of mineral oil can be very low, depending on the amount of wax in the oil. My Shimano brakes are still functional at -40, as are my Avids [DOT fluid]. Performance in those temps sucks in general, with almost no modulation, but the brakes do slow the bike down. Again, YMMV.


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## 11053 (Sep 19, 2009)

Anytime I've experienced the problem described with 820s, I have found air in the system. 
It has always been at the caliper.

You can get the same feeling/problem with any newer Shimano brake-SLX/XT/DEORE/XTR/ZEE. It doesn't matter, they can all act as described if there's air trapped at the caliper. 

It can be easier to get all the air out of the 2pot calipers than the 4pots. The newer Shimano brakes are so easy to bleed that most of the time, people have no problem getting all the air out of the caliper.

You can certainly get what you think is a "perfect" bleed on Shimano brakes and still have air in the caliper. If you've got an engagement point that fluctuates, a lever that goes rock hard with little travel and then goes closer to the bar before pumping back up, you've got air in the system.

Shimano's bleed procedure is easy and it works very well for most people most of the time. 

If you are continually experiencing a lever fluctuation issue with Saints or any brake for that matter( I've seen it and experienced it frequently on many pairs of older CODES as well as a whole slew of HOPES), it is best to remove the caliper from the frame for the bleed and fully cycle the pistons while bleeding. Extend the pistons and then reset them. Then proceed with the regular bleed procedure. A simple reset and standard bleed may not do the trick.

The technique will usually produce the results that Pinkrobe details above as far as finding a hidden air bubble in the caliper.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

ustemuf said:


> I hate to sound like a bigger a$$hole than you, but I'll put money I'm a much better mechanic than you and have been wrenching on my own bikes and motorcycles for over 20 years. I probably have more money in bicycle specific tools than you have in bikes. Wow, guess it wasn't hard to sound like more of an ass than you. Props to me.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the bleed, it's just a fault of the brakes. I'm giving you my experience as I am fortunate enough to have tried many different components over the years. If you haven't experienced the issue with the brakes, more power to you. Take it for what it's worth, I don't really care, but don't talk **** about wrenching ability when you have no clue.


relax.....my old man is a tv repair man...he has the ultimate set of tools he can fix it...


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## rscecil007 (Apr 7, 2007)

FWIW, I'm the guy that started the thread linked above over on ridemonkey. I'm fairly picky about my setup and how things are performing, and I didn't notice either set of my Saints acting up back then until the temps started getting really cold. 

Don't ask me how I didn't know that the cold affected mineral oil, but I didn't. These were the first brakes I'd owned that used mineral oil.

I'm convinced now that the effect of the cold on the mineral oil is what was causing my issues, not a bad bleed or faulty part, etc. If my brakes had been acting up prior to the winter, I would have noticed it. I rode them all summer and fall with no issues at all, just nice and consistent, strong, and tons of modulation.


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## 11053 (Sep 19, 2009)

Here's what Shimano says about their brakes in cold weather.
They point to seals and not fluid when the problem occurs in cold weather.

Shimano: All bicycle disc brakes will stop working if they get below a certain temperature, but it's not because of the fluid. If you want proof just take a bottle of brake fluid and put it in the freezer. The failure point is actually with the square edge seal used in bicycle brake calipers. These are designed to pull the pad away from the rotor when you let go of the lever so they don't rub. The seals need to flex a very specific amount as the piston moves out and then help bring it back in. This seal is also responsible for the system auto-correcting for worn pads. The seal flexes out as the piston moves to a very specific point, after that it breaks free, and the piston slides past the seal. If the seal gets too cold, it loses its flexibility and the piston breaks free too soon. When this happens, the first pull of the lever goes all the way to the bar and then after a few more pulls there is almost zero free stroke in the lever and the pads rub on the rotor because they haven't retracted. The quick fix is to ride around in circles with the brakes applied to heat up the seals, then just push the pistons back in and try again.

Tech Speak: Brake Fluid Break Down & Implications for Road Disc


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Maybe Shimano has different tolerances or seal material ? The pistons in my Haye's brakes seem very tight in the caliper bores. I replaced pads in an XT set and the pistone seemed to move much easier.


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## metalMTB (Sep 15, 2005)

well, i guess i've never experienced this problem because I don't ride downhill in freezing temps...


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