# Rim Brakes vs Discs for Entry Level Bikes?



## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

Would the rim brakes on a bike such as a Specialized Hardrock be ok for beginners? Do beginners really need disc brakes?

We like the Specialized bikes' fit. Could we upgrade later, if desired?


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## Odii (Jun 19, 2011)

I had just started a month or so ago, I was asking the same question to my friend.

You should buy the best components your budget will allow. Your wallet will thank you later.


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## branthopolis (Apr 25, 2010)

To install disc brakes, the wheel hubs must be disc compatible and the frame & fork must have disc brake mounting points. Any disc brakes specced on an entry level bike will probably be VERY entry level..

If there is a significant different in price to get the rim brake equipped bike (AND it has disc-compatible hubs and brake mounts on the frame and fork) I would get that version and later upgrade the bike to a higher quality disc brake setup of my choice..

If the rim-brake bike doesn't have disc-compatible wheel hubs then you would have to also buy new wheels to make the upgrade which adds considerable expense.

If you see yourself riding through water or mud, disc brakes are nice to have. If you are planning to ride sidewalks and greenways.. Not so much...


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## curtboroff (Sep 21, 2010)

You can upgrade before you leave the shop, and they will(should) give you credit for the unused take offs.
Get entry level discs, and upgrade to Avid BB-7 with SD-7 levers, best mechanical disc IMO.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

If the rims and hubs are disc compatible(check and make sure before you leave the shop) then it's ok to start with v brake. Upgrading later just sucks. Spend the max you can on the bike trim line then you'd have less to upgrade later and it's more cost effective too.


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

I haven't looked at the specific bikes you are considering, but I have never seen a rim braked bike that had disc compatible wheels. So the cheap discs might not be great, but you know you have disc hubs and mounting tabs for the calipers (not all rim brake equipped bikes even have the caliper mounts). So upgrading to the best mechanical discs, Avid BB7s can be done for less than $100. If you start with the rim brake model, assuming it does have the mounting tabs, you still need the rims and the brakes.

My newbish opinion is that even if the discs are a slight downgrade from the nice v-brakes the easy upgradability would win out.


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## 5370H55V (Jul 14, 2011)

I was in the same situation about a month ago and I went with the v-brake Hardrock. I have to say I regret it now as I was trying to save some money (~$100 between the models) and ended up spending more to upgrade, like others said. My v-brakes worked fine and IMHO they should be adequate for a beginner, but the most important thing to know for the hardrock is that _the v-brake model hubs are not disc compatible!_ As a total noob I wasn't aware of this until I had my BB7's in hand and found out there was nothing on the wheel to attach the rotors to. :madman: At that point I was forced to splurge on a new set of wheels to complete the upgrade even though I was happy with the stock ones. Admittedly the new wheels were great (mavic en521's w/ XT hubs), but they cost $130 which was more than I saved by buying the v-brake HR in the first place. So as someone who learned his lesson the hard way, my advice is to spend a bit more and get the disc-compatible version. You'll save money in the long run by not having to upgrade your wheels as soon, and at the same time you upgrade your brakes. And like curt said if your LBS allows upgrades before you leave, you might as well upgrade right then and get a discount.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

Many entry level bikes come with Tektro I/o, Hayes MX3/4, or in some case Avid BB5. All of those actually stop okay after breaking them in for their intended purpose and imho, would be the better option as they can be upgraded easily later. There have been bikes that came with disc hubs, but used rim brakes. An 04 Jamis Dakar (the lowest model Dakar) comes to mind as I had one. Even then, I started right away with a disc upgrade. Rim brakes will aslo remove the anodizing over time assiming the rim sides are not cleared of that already.


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## markaitch (Feb 17, 2010)

Crash Test Dumby said:


> ...I have never seen a rim braked bike that had disc compatible wheels...
> ...not all rim brake equipped bikes even have the caliper mounts...


dood...you are wrong...again. 
there are tons of oem v-brake bikes that come with disc hubs & there are very few if any current mtb frames & forks that are built without disc mounts.
i just read your post in another thread where you stated with absolute certainty that kinesis only makes frames...you were wrong there too & i bet it would not be too hard to find more of your boo-boos if one was so inclined.
i hate to sound snarky but while i congratulate you on your newfound zeal for mountain biking, i can no longer keep myself from mentioning to you that perhaps with your less than overwhelming mtb knowledge you really should not be pedantically advising so many others what to do & in some cases even berating them when they ignore your limited expertise.
ok, now i am headed out to the mtb park to ride my v-brake equipped bike that came with disc hubs & tabs...


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## RabEd Ewok (Jul 15, 2011)

Going to go pick up a 10 Fisher Marlin today, first bike and after doing tons of research and many questions, it is the bike to get. Has V-Brakes, but is fully compatible for the switch to disc. So all I would have to buy is some good Disc Brakes and have them put on, and I have a solid beginner bike. Looking to ride out the V-Brakes until they are dead then making the switch. Budget won't allow the switch right away as I am putting all of it into the purchase of the bike.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

If you are going for MTB, get disc... and if you have to get them yourself, get some BB7's or BB5's if you are lower on budget... But don't get anything else... unless hydro's if you want.

David


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

RabEd Ewok said:


> Going to go pick up a 10 Fisher Marlin today, first bike and after doing tons of research and many questions, it is the bike to get. Has V-Brakes, but is fully compatible for the switch to disc. So all I would have to buy is some good Disc Brakes and have them put on, and I have a solid beginner bike. Looking to ride out the V-Brakes until they are dead then making the switch. Budget won't allow the switch right away as I am putting all of it into the purchase of the bike.


If it is as you say, then mechanical disc brakes will fit right on with your existing levers. Not usre about your model, but when looking to swap out v-brakes for hydraulic disc brakes, make sure your bike has the shifters separate from the brake levers. If they are integrated, you would also need to replace the shifters cuz you can't have two sets of brake levers on at the same time 
=========================

To the OP, it states that the lowest level Hardrock (the only one that currently comes with v-brakes) does have a disc compatible front hub, but the specs on the specialized website don't confirm that the rear hub is also disc compatible. If the front is, I would think the rear would be as well, but it would be something I would check if you're considering buying it and adding disc brakes.

Also, it looks like that bike has separate (not integrated) shifters, so you're good to go there.

If you're thinking about using mechanical disc brakes, I would really only consider the Avid BB7. I have heard some decent reports about the Hayes MX-4 mechanical disc brakes, but haven't used them myself. If it's not one of those (and the Hayes only if you get them for next to free), then I would get hydraulic. For what the BB7 costs over the BB5, it's worth every nickel to go with the BB7. JMHO.


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## DeepseaDebo (Oct 20, 2009)

i remember when rim brakes where good for pros


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## FroggyBiker (Jan 26, 2009)

linear pulls VS disc.....well after 26 years riding and building custom bikes to do things most folks would not even dream of doing on a bike( like pulling a 200 lb trailer on mountain trails back home in colorado!) my money is on a decent set of linear pulls with a quality booster plate... a good set of Avid ( sd5 or 7s...OR Tektro Quartz) , and good brake shoes..NOT the factory garbage!( KoolStop is about the best out there!) the best booster ever made is the older Salsa boosters.... set up that way I'll put my braking up against any discs out there... not to mention there Much more dependable than disc..... you dont have to adjust em all the time like disc , and can can get brake shoes most anyplace!!!! unlike disc which you generaly have to order the bloody pads for IF you can even find em online!!!!! yepp rim brakes by a mile for most rigs is the best bet


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Ya almost all bikes come with disc brake mounts nowadays, and of coarse the less parts you have to change the better. But I'm surprised no 1 mentioned the fact that rim brakes are lighter, and that a good set of rim brakes are better than a cheap set of mechical disc, especially on a 29er at least IMO. When the going gets wet the any type disc will out perform, and a good set of hydaulics are the best in the biz, but there are some other factors.


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

FroggyBiker said:


> linear pulls VS disc.....well after 26 years riding and building custom bikes to do things most folks would not even dream of doing on a bike( like pulling a 200 lb trailer on mountain trails back home in colorado!) my money is on a decent set of linear pulls with a quality booster plate... a good set of Avid ( sd5 or 7s...OR Tektro Quartz) , and good brake shoes..NOT the factory garbage!( KoolStop is about the best out there!) the best booster ever made is the older Salsa boosters.... set up that way I'll put my braking up against any discs out there... not to mention there Much more dependable than disc..... you dont have to adjust em all the time like disc , and can can get brake shoes most anyplace!!!! unlike disc which you generaly have to order the bloody pads for IF you can even find em online!!!!! yepp rim brakes by a mile for most rigs is the best bet


Tell me more. That is very interesting.


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## interdigitate (Jul 17, 2011)

How can I find out if my frame works with disc brakes? I've got a 2004 Cannondale F400. Been thinking about upgrading the bike instead of getting a new one.


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## interdigitate (Jul 17, 2011)

FroggyBiker said:


> linear pulls VS disc.....well after 26 years riding and building custom bikes to do things most folks would not even dream of doing on a bike( like pulling a 200 lb trailer on mountain trails back home in colorado!) my money is on a decent set of linear pulls with a quality booster plate... a good set of Avid ( sd5 or 7s...OR Tektro Quartz) , and good brake shoes..NOT the factory garbage!( KoolStop is about the best out there!) the best booster ever made is the older Salsa boosters.... set up that way I'll put my braking up against any discs out there... not to mention there Much more dependable than disc..... you dont have to adjust em all the time like disc , and can can get brake shoes most anyplace!!!! unlike disc which you generaly have to order the bloody pads for IF you can even find em online!!!!! yepp rim brakes by a mile for most rigs is the best bet


Hey would u be able to recommend a brake upgrade for me?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Interdigitate
On your frame, next to the rear hub, and on your fork, next to the front hub, there will be 2 holes where the calipers would atatch. I know that the stock manitou front fork that came with your bike had em, but sorry don't remember if an 04' f400 frame has em on the rear. If your bike doesn't have the holes, there's also some after market brakets that you may be able to sport.
Froggy already did mention some good brakes that I'd have to agree with, but don't think a brake booster will help much on a stiff aluminum frame like yours, and disc brakes are just better when wet period. 
But I will say that if that's your only bike, I'd sooner get another bike, like a 29er, or FS, rigid whatever, and keep that bike as is also. It's just nice to have bikes that are better at somethings and think yours is well equiped as is and instead of throwing money at it would rather put that $ into something else. At the end of the season, and around x-mas there's always some great deals in classifieds if moneys an issue. 
My .02


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## interdigitate (Jul 17, 2011)

I think I have the holes in the rear, let me get back home and take a picture.


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## getagrip (Mar 26, 2008)

firemark said:


> Tell me more. That is very interesting.


You can get Avid Single Digit 7 V-Brakes for about $23 a piece online. These will blow away most entry level disc brakes. I don't think you would need them, though. My bet is that the V-Brakes the Hardrock comes with will work just fine. Anyway, here is the link:

http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/14...d-Single-Digit-7-Brake-2010-offerIN211GLB.htm


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## interdigitate (Jul 17, 2011)

Damn can't post pics cuz i am under 10 posts. this is annoying. 

Anyway, I am actually still trying to figure out if its better to spend on my bike or get a new one. I think i'll open a thread and get opinions on this. I'm really tempted to do something just not sure what yet.


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## getagrip (Mar 26, 2008)

interdigitate said:


> Damn can't post pics cuz i am under 10 posts. this is annoying.


Easy solution...make a few more posts, then upload your photos...


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## interdigitate (Jul 17, 2011)

Post #10


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## interdigitate (Jul 17, 2011)

ok here are the pictures


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## getagrip (Mar 26, 2008)

So...what were your photos about? Was there a point in posting them? Please elaborate...


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## interdigitate (Jul 17, 2011)

they're meant for themeat, wanted him to see if i had the disc brake mountings on my frame and fork


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

The fork has em. They're the 2 nubs that stick out towards the bottom. From the pic it looks like the rear does not unless I just can't see em, althou you took the pic of the correct side (non drive side) They'd look the same as the nubs on the fork. Looks like the wheel hubs are a no go also. For the price of wheels or just hubs and rebuild of wheels with the right hubs and the cost of brakes?


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## interdigitate (Jul 17, 2011)

i guess the frame doesn't have them then. i guess will have to go with really great v-brakes, maybe the ones getagrip recommended above and they're pretty affordable to


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Yup, I don't have any experience with your fire brakes that came on your f4 but they are linear pull like the avid 7's. I have the Avid 7's on 1 of my bikes and they work great, easy to adjust, and now they're cheap to boot, but don't think they're gonna be that much better if at all than the ones you have. 
Might wanna just get a set of koolstop brake pads (which are way better than stockers), clean your rims with scotch pad, simple green and call it good.
My .02


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## getagrip (Mar 26, 2008)

interdigitate said:


> i guess the frame doesn't have them then. i guess will have to go with really great v-brakes, maybe the ones getagrip recommended above and they're pretty affordable to


Definately go with the Avids. They are cheap right now because they are the 2010 models. I don't think you would have any regrets. When you get them, read the installation instructions carefully. You may have to adjust the washer/bolt configuration to fit your bike. I think you will like them! :thumbsup:


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## RabEd Ewok (Jul 15, 2011)

Bought a 10 Fisher Marlin today, talked to the guy about putting on Mechanical Discs and he was already for it. Was going to go with Avid BB7 or maybe Avid BB5 to keep cost down. But it won't work with my Shimano hubs. Have to go with Shimano Mechanical's, anyone have suggestion on that, which one is the best to get?


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## markaitch (Feb 17, 2010)

wow, this thread is going in 2 different directions now...
@RabEd Ewok...
remind us again the reason you need discs immediately? is it because you ride so hard & it is so wet in your locality that you are unable to stop with your stock linear brakes? if so, why did you buy that bike instead of one that came with discs?
@ interdigitate...
what kind of riding do you do? are you having a problem with your current brakes? if so, is it because they can not handle your aggressive riding? is it the pads? cables? improper adjustment? your bike is older, maybe a decent overhaul of your existing set-up would do wonders for you. new goodies are great. avid speed dial levers & single digit brakes are relatively inexpensive, work really well as long as it's not wet & are easy to install & set-up...but do you really need it? or want it?
anyway...i just got back from what my riding buddies told me was riding very hard & very fast all afternoon, & please excuse me for bragging about it a lil cuz i know i am not so talented.
fyi...i had zero problems stopping with my pretty old but well-maintained & adjusted v-brakes.
maybe you guise should try riding your bikes?
forgive me but i am really worn out so i gotta shower & take a nap
good luck & have fun...


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

markaitch said:


> dood...you are wrong...again.
> *there are tons of oem v-brake bikes that come with disc hubs & there are very few if any current mtb frames & forks that are built without disc mounts.*
> i just read your post in another thread where you stated with absolute certainty that kinesis only makes frames...you were wrong there too & i bet it would not be too hard to find more of your boo-boos if one was so inclined.
> i hate to sound snarky but while i congratulate you on your newfound zeal for mountain biking, i can no longer keep myself from mentioning to you that perhaps with your less than overwhelming mtb knowledge you really should not be pedantically advising so many others what to do & in some cases even berating them when they ignore your limited expertise.
> ok, now i am headed out to the mtb park to ride my v-brake equipped bike that came with disc hubs & tabs...


Wow, what a way to blow up your own ego by pointing out insignificant errors and labeling them as bad advice. The Kinesis comment wasn't "advice" of any kind. It was a discussion about all the Trek/(insert your favorite brand here) fan boys who would freak out if they knew their bike was not made in a Trek factory but was rather built in the same factory as their buddies Giant or even those Wallyrides they love to bash.

And here I DID NOT say the disc brake upgrade couldn't be done, just pointed out some important things to look for. So SOME bikes do have disc hubs and rim brakes, but not all do, so its an important thing to look for. And yes, there are still frames in use that do not have disc mounts. Per another very recent thread the Trek 3500 has neither disc hubs or the mounts for the rear caliper.

Seems to me what we have here is one guy trying to make himself look super smart and boost his "rep" by pointing out insignificant errors in others posts and labeling them "bad advice". I am sure if I cared I could find a few errors in your posts as well, but I just dont care. Your criticism has been noted and filed in the proper receptacle.:thumbsup:


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## FroggyBiker (Jan 26, 2009)

interdigitate you asked about recomending a brake upgrade for todays prices I would look into one of the better sets of Tektros..... either the quartz or the 857al its got longer arms if your like me and usualy run fenders... also tektro just changed there factory pad design.... suckers are the best they ever had! even work great in wet conditions not to mention Kool stop makes tektro's pads for em! get a whole brake just for the price of pad.... and with one of there booster plates ZAM! one powerfull brake!


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## FroggyBiker (Jan 26, 2009)

firemark to put it simple most folks these days are gullible enough to beleive what the sales man tells em... few folks need disc... there heavy and a maintenance nightmare!..... the fact is most dont even know how to properly set up and adjust a V or linearpull brake to get the most out of it..... if they did the disc brake would'nt be so desireable its not hard really, just means selecting the right brake, pad, noodle, cable, lever combo... and dialing it in till its set at its most powerfull that means the brake must be set up near perfectly.... its a bit more time consuming ...but once its done ya should never have to mess with the settings again ....if ya did it right!.... jus clean and lube it when needed, and dont forget to deglaze the pads with a file every 200 or so miles..... or after an afternoon of heavy use...like pulling a loaded trailer down Gnarly singletrack.... its just another way for the companies to get people to buy what they dont need


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## rum_n_coke (May 22, 2011)

im new to riding and i have a base hardrock. i just upgraded to disks and let me tell you what a difference. i live in miami, fl, around this time it always rains, the standard brakes the hardrock came with wasn't cutting it. the rim would get wet and it wouldn't stop. not anymore i bought some avid bb7's and some wheels for the disks and they're awesome. between the wheels and the brakes i spent around $250


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

A little more $ and you could get a whole bike with those brakes if you search the classifieds. Just sayin'


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## markaitch (Feb 17, 2010)

firemark, sorry for hijacking your thread 
@Crash Test Dumby...when you posted your earlier silly crap, you knew i was still here right? 
ok, Crash Test Dumby,..
so you been hitting the trails hard, right? 
or not? 
well then...you postwhore...300+ ignorantly worthless posts in 60 days & you have the nerve to accuse someone else of "trying to make himself look super smart and boost his "rep"???
i feel sorry for anybody who would listen to you...
..


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

markaitch said:


> firemark, sorry for hijacking your thread
> @Crash Test Dumby...when you posted your earlier silly crap, you knew i was still here right?
> ok, Crash Test Dumby,..
> so you been hitting the trails hard, right?
> ...


Back at ya:thumbsup:


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

FroggyBiker said:


> firemark to put it simple most folks these days are gullible enough to beleive what the sales man tells em... few folks need disc... there heavy and a maintenance nightmare!..... the fact is most dont even know how to properly set up and adjust a V or linearpull brake to get the most out of it..... if they did the disc brake would'nt be so desireable its not hard really, just means selecting the right brake, pad, noodle, cable, lever combo... and dialing it in till its set at its most powerfull that means the brake must be set up near perfectly.... its a bit more time consuming ...but once its done ya should never have to mess with the settings again ....if ya did it right!.... jus clean and lube it when needed, and dont forget to deglaze the pads with a file every 200 or so miles..... or after an afternoon of heavy use...like pulling a loaded trailer down Gnarly singletrack.... its just another way for the companies to get people to buy what they dont need


None of that is true. Rim brakes simply do not measure up to hydraulic disks in any way, shape or form. They're higher maintenance and less powerful in every way.

The real question is need. It would be nice if entry level bikes didn't try to look like higher-end bikes and spent the money on components on things other than the brakes. Beginners (yes, we've all been a beginner at one time) simply don't ride as fast (especially on HTs or short travel FS bikes) so they don't have the same need for braking power and heat dissipation.


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## markaitch (Feb 17, 2010)

srsly...Crash Test Dumby...you been hitting the trails,right?


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

markaitch said:


> srsly...Crash Test Dumby...you been hitting the trails,right?


 dude this is getting funny.:thumbsup:


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## RabEd Ewok (Jul 15, 2011)

markaitch said:


> @RabEd Ewok...
> remind us again the reason you need discs immediately? is it because you ride so hard & it is so wet in your locality that you are unable to stop with your stock linear brakes? if so, why did you buy that bike instead of one that came with discs?


Answer not from me, but was in another thread that he was replying to me.



AndrwSwitch said:


> *I do think disc brakes are something a rider in the northeast would benefit from *- rocks, roots, thunder storms, damp air - mud. On both bikes, you're likely to want to replace the wheels sooner or later.


Also never said immediately, am going to use the V-Brakes until I am ready and have some more budget room for the switch. (Only asked for the price for the switch when I bought it, to see if he would cut me a good deal or not, since he was getting the stock V-Brakes, unused, in return) It is not too wet that, but it is pretty wet from time to time. Am a beginner so riding too hard is not some thing I am doing as of yet, at least maybe not to your standards. Bought the Marlin because of the other components and knew that it was a good deal for the price. Plus, also knew that I was able to make the switch to Disc without it costing a small fortune. (ie...buying new rims as well) I figured I will be fine with V-Brakes, until I am ready, or may just stick with them, who knows at this point. Like how they were yesterday, dry. Will see how it works out when they are wet, and will make my judgement call from there. Heard of some really good pads, so may just try them in the wet too. Just to see if there is a really good difference or not.

Is that good enough?


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## ricky916 (Jun 7, 2011)

I would defiently go disc, my Avalanche had vbrakes, they did fine, but the one time I hit mud on a part of a trail and my brakes were pretty much useless the rest of the day, I had to change, spent $50 locally (craigslist) and bought a double wall wheelset, $80 for a set of BN BB7's and new cables and tada, way better braking and can go in water and mud without making my brakes useless. Plus they are very easy to adjust and set up.


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## GOTA (Apr 21, 2011)

Go for the disc brakes. The price difference isn't that great and it makes your bike a lot easier to upgrade when you want.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

Boy, newbs giving newbs advice, what could go wrong?

FroggyBiker made some fantastic points, V brakes are perfectly fine for not only beginners but nearly everyone. My V brake bike is perfectly fine for the terrain where I usually ride a hardtail (1000' climbs followed by 1000' descents) and I can honestly say that the level V brakes on entry level bikes are better than even mid level mechanical discs. If you get discs they need to be BB7+ level.

My advice is to get a V brake equipped bike that comes disc ready (hubs and mounts). Don't spend more money on a bike to get a poor preforming disc brake.


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## Mendosa (Jul 18, 2011)

zebrahum said:


> FroggyBiker made some fantastic points, V brakes are perfectly fine for not only beginners but nearly everyone. My V brake bike is perfectly fine for the terrain where I usually ride a hardtail (1000' climbs followed by 1000' descents) and I can honestly say that the level V brakes on entry level bikes are better than even mid level mechanical discs. If you get discs they need to be BB7+ level.
> 
> My advice is to get a V brake equipped bike that comes disc ready (hubs and mounts). Don't spend more money on a bike to get a poor preforming disc brake.


I'm currently looking at a bike that is equipped with Avid BB5's. I'm looking into the bike not so much for its disc brakes but for its total package. The bike is a Specialized Hardrock Sport Disc. I'm trying to make a comparison thread and get some things like this tied up, Going to the Sport, instead of the Sport Disc. But I'm unsure if the hubs are disc ready, hard to find that out over the internet.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

Mendosa said:


> I'm currently looking at a bike that is equipped with Avid BB5's. I'm looking into the bike not so much for its disc brakes but for its total package. The bike is a Specialized Hardrock Sport Disc. I'm trying to make a comparison thread and get some things like this tied up, Going to the Sport, instead of the Sport Disc. But I'm unsure if the hubs are disc ready, hard to find that out over the internet.


BB5s are a pretty good quality brake, they lack a bit of adjustment from the 7s but the mechanism is very similar.


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## TX_Shifter (Aug 14, 2007)

I prefer disc brakes and even if you get crappy tektro brakes components on a bike, you can easily swap it to the BB7, which to me are some very nice mechnical brake setup.


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## Mendosa (Jul 18, 2011)

zebrahum said:


> BB5s are a pretty good quality brake, they lack a bit of adjustment from the 7s but the mechanism is very similar.


Good to know, thanks.


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