# Where is the real bike "feeling" with a electric bike?



## MTBers (Jul 2, 2018)

Hi. 
Ive done a lot of research and know my technical stuff, but I haven't found anyone who does a comparison between electric bike systems and a regular similar bike regarding the "feeling", not the technical stuff.

*Introduction*. 
I really like biking and building various bikes is a bit of hobby of mine. But I have never dreamed of a electric bike, since I dont need one. But living on top of a hill, and having a partner that do not enjoy being soaked in sweet everyday bringing the kids to Kindergarten... we stumbled on a sporty electric Hub driven cargo bike (Bullit).

The thing is, I lost the feeling of biking. Its like driving a scooter. All I need to do is peddle slowly and off it goes. Super fast, very efficient but dreadfully boring... And yes, I know its a cargo. But Ive tried non electric ones and they are fast as lightning and quite fun to ride.

The wheel resistance and weight kind of removes the last bit of fun to be had when turning of the engine. I assume this is a normal feeling for a hub engine.

The crank position sensor is also to "ruff", it only measures every full peddle rotation. There is no brake sensor to turn of the engine, and to much power on the lowest setting. It just accelerates like a Tesla.

Some of these thing I can maybe fix by upgrading the components and so forth. But can I get the "feeling" of biking back? Like when every peddle on your race bike kind of propels you forward, and you have full control and so on... Basically the reason why I'm in to bikes.

*The question*
So my question is should I upgrade to a mid crank system? And how is the Bafang BBS02 compared to shimano, or bosch hubs when it comes to freewheeling, peddling and feeling

I would actually like to be able to ride bike with engine off, without feeling this slow "sirup" kind feeling I get from the Hub engine. Also to be able to bike with just a tiny bit help of the engine, just to make it easier with a heavy load....

Can this be done with a BBS02? I know a lot of spec on the bikes, but no-one talks about the feeling when biking... from a bikers perspective.

Sorry for the somewhat unclear question, but maybe there is someone out there who also thought about this...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

If you want an ebike to ride like a "bike", you need to buy an ebike based on a "bike".

Good examples are Specialized Levo, Pivot Shuttle, Fezzari Wire Peak.

A converted bike, a hub powered bike, and all the low end ebikes will ride like shite.


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

I just got done installing a Bafang 1000w midrive on a new 7 speed Schwinn for my non-biking friend. . I did not detect any pedal drag when motor is off. I could spin the spindle with my fingers. I can say the unit can be lightened a lot..steel chainring and a lot of steel on the unit. I feel in the future weight will come down as there is room for lightning. It has a thumb throttle along with pedal assist and it is somewhat twitchy at slow speeds. I left it off during low speed close quarter operation. 


As far as the biking experience goes until the weight comes down ya will need a bike for the biking experience. 


I will say after testing my install on his bike...holy crap...38mph with cheap brakes...I can see the issue with them on sensitive trails. Or with populated trails. Going through the bikes tranny seems like the way to go but I question how long the aluminum cassettes hub will last..I am glad he got the 7 speed hub as it is all steel amongst other reasons.

I do worry as he is very accident prone..and his ebike requires some level of self-concern and control which is hard for him..


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## foresterLV (Dec 25, 2016)

its called "torque sensing assist". decent mid drives have built-in sensor that measures amount of force applied at pedals and assist that with motor. the more precise its done the more natural feel the ebike have, ultimately giving you the feel of just having stronger legs. 

the problem is - torque sensors are expensive and complicated technology (yet). bafang DIY mid drives dont have it. hence these engines aproximate rider input from crank rotations which is not very precise causing unnatural feel. 

solution? get the bike with torque sensor drive and natural feel. or just adjust to bafang effort sensing.

personally I would not bother with bafang or similar DIY builds anymore as torque sensing ebikes (bosch, shimano, brose etc) are getting cheaper and cheaper and DIY engines are stuck in stone age technology-wise.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

MTBers said:


> Hi.
> Ive done a lot of research and know my technical stuff, but I haven't found anyone who does a comparison between electric bike systems and a regular similar bike regarding the "feeling", not the technical stuff.
> 
> *Introduction*.
> ...


I'm confused, did you get the bullit bike? Not sure how you would upgrade this: https://www.larryvsharry.com/

Or did you just ride one and not like the feel? I think clarifying that would get you better answers to assist with your quest.


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## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

MTBers said:


> *The question*
> So my question is should I upgrade to a mid crank system? And how is the Bafang BBS02 compared to shimano, or bosch hubs when it comes to freewheeling, peddling and feeling
> 
> I would actually like to be able to ride bike with engine off, without feeling this slow "sirup" kind feeling I get from the Hub engine. Also to be able to bike with just a tiny bit help of the engine, just to make it easier with a heavy load....
> ...


I sell Shimano, Bafang and Tongsheng motors in my store. What you describe as "feeling" will not be had by using the bafang. A better choice would be the Tongsheng. It uses a torque sensor like the shimano and others and it feels very much like a $5,000+ manufactured eBike.

The Bafang is more of a scooter feeling. You can do some tweaks on the Bafang to make it a bit more like a bicycle, but it is based off of your cranks turning, not how hard you are pushing them. With the Bafang, you turn the cranks and it goes as fast as you set the power level with no force needed by you.

That is where the difference lies. With a torque sensor on your motor, it only gives you full power assist if you are pedaling hard. Pedal easy and they give back very little assist.

Additionally the Bafang makes the crank turn very fast if it is a model with above 350w power. To get a workout, you need to pedal faster than 100 rpms to catch up to the motor or you need to let the motor bog down (very serious risk of burning up your motor) and then you can make up the difference.

I personally love the Bafang BBS02 and have sold many of them, but they are best suited to the commuter who doesn't want to work that hard on their ride. If I wanted to go on the cheap and still have the bike ride "feeling", I would go with the Tongsheng hands down.

We sell new complete converted hardtail mt bikes with a Tongsheng or Bafang motor kit for $1500 or do installations to your bike for about $1000.

I hope this helps.


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

I gathered he was looking for a system that would pedal when motor off just like any other non ebike. 

I will let my friend know he can reprogram it for better low speed manors. No distructions came with it and his phone sucked...

There is a power level control on the bar but even at #1 power it was a lot..


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

I've ridden a lot of mid-drive and hub motor ebikes, all the way back to Lee Iacocca's "eBike" brand (https://california-ebike.com/a-blast-from-the-past-original-ev-global-ebike/) and the Charger (https://www.electric-bikes.com/bikes/charger.html), which I believe was the original torque-sensing pedal assist bike.

A lot of people have misconceptions about "ebikes" based on early experiences with the aforementioned brands, or current day hubmotor bikes or cheap bolt on mid-drives.

Find an ebike dealer that sells one of the "Big Four" (Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, Shimano) mid drives (not hubmotors). Take a real test ride, not a spin around a parking lot. You'll understand. None have perfected a totally seamless experience yet, but they are getting darn close. My biggest complaint is noise, and that may never go away, but the Bosch CX system is pretty amazing already.


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## b1rdie (Mar 11, 2011)

I finally got my canyon spectral last month and after the first two weeks and ridden it on a few different trails, varying from downhill tracks (Lourdes France) to park to natural rooty, wet, rocky, dry.
I say it has the real bike feeling, all over and around, besides making the climb just as freeking fun as the descends.
The weight of the bike is the only difference, and the feeling i get is just that the bike is 30% more heavy and I am 80% stronger, sweet deal.


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## Phantomtracer (Jan 13, 2004)

Try a Rocky Mountain Powerplay. It took two seconds to get used to the power delivery. Feels extremely natural. Has a torque sensor and wheel speed sensor. Thing is amazing!!


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## MTBers (Jul 2, 2018)

Thanks for all the help so far.



rockcrusher said:


> I'm confused, did you get the bullit bike?
> 
> Or did you just ride one and not like the feel? I think clarifying that would get you better answers to assist with your quest.


Its a regular one (without the shimano mid drive). It was converted to hub engine a long time ago. But this question is more general towards electric bike systems and how they behave.



> A better choice would be the Tongsheng. It uses a torque sensor like the shimano and others and it feels very much like a $5,000+ manufactured eBike.


To me it sounds like a Geared mid drive engine with a really really good torque sensor would be the solution. The question is if they can really deliver a nice consistent feeling of biking. Ive tried a few, a Bosch, a Shimano and they somehow didn't feel quite right. Maybe its more about the programming then anything else. Or I'm just very picky 

I like the idea of being able to install a mid drive on a regular BB. But maybe they are inferior when it comes to programming, materials and Torque sensor.



> PhantomtracerTry a Rocky Mountain Powerplay.​


They are using there own mid drive "inline toque sensor to seamlessly add assist to whatever effort you put into the pedals that they say makes for an intuitive feel."

Could be fun to try just to compare. Not my kind of bike thou 

*And now...*
Question is whats the best alternative for me then. Should be mounted in a regular BB (then I can use my normal steel frames), Needs a good torque sensor, Should not be to strong, maybe 350-500W? Should be 0 drag when freewheeling and biking without the engine.

Or maybe I just have to wait until there is a better option out there.


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## MTBers (Jul 2, 2018)

Google just answered my own question, kind of.

1. Get a BB Torque sensor and somehow connect it to our XF39 MXUS Hub engine.
2. Fit a aftermarket Mid Drive with Toque sensor...
3. Try to reprogram my controller to make it more smooth and then live with a lesser bike experience.

But according to the internet none of these solutions seems to be the right way to go.

Found a nice little thread, old but informative:

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/bafang-mid-drives/11882-bbshd-torque-sensor-upgrade


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Nurse Ben said:


> If you want an ebike to ride like a "bike", you need to buy an ebike based on a "bike".
> 
> Good examples are Specialized Levo, Pivot Shuttle, Fezzari Wire Peak.
> 
> A converted bike, a hub powered bike, and all the low-end ebikes will ride like shite.


This is exactly what I was gonna post for now. You have to get an e-bike system where every part of it is engineered for the e-bike feeling like a normal bike.

The suspension kinematics, shock tune have to support the bike so it feels secure and agile. The brakes have to stop it for that crazy amount of descending you're gonna do.

The front/rear side to side balance and geometry have to be dialed to get a good experience (aside from getting a lift up).

The YT Decoy is very good too.


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## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

Yes, you can get a “heavier” bike feel from a Bafang BBS02 add-on mid-drive!

To begin with, a bike with a BBS02 in the BB is simply the same bike with extra weight low and centered on the existing bike without a battery. Add the battery and you have an even heavier bike and sometimes the battery weight isn’t in the most desirable location either (unlike the mid-drive motor location). Thus with the power off, you have a “heavier” bike feel. Plan on about 10-20lbs. extra for the motor and battery.

If you only want assist as needed, simply set the BBS02 to zero assist and use the throttle as a “variable assist control.” That way you have your “heavier” bike feel with assist only in the exact amount you want at any time. It is my experience that torque sensors “feel” like they simply turn on and off the power for the setting you have the power level set to. They “feel” like a simple foot controlled on/off button and feel nothing like a full variable throttle.

The great thing about a Bafang BBS02 is you are in total control of setting it up how you want it to operate, unlike the prebuilt eBikes. Pre-built eBikes don’t have a “variable assist level (throttle)” or generic batteries giving you total control of the size, quality and weight desired. You can also set the level of power assist by button click to 9 levels, greatly enhancing your control of what the eBike feels like at any given level. You can set the assist at say 2 of 9 and ride your heart out, then hit the throttle for extra boost for a sprint up a hill or simply click the power level button a few times for more power, then click it back down. The point of a BBS02 is YOU ARE IN TOTAL CONTROL OF THE SETTINGS, BIKE FEEL AND (SOMEWHAT) THE WEIGHT ON THE BIKE, albeit a “heavier” bike feel no matter how you slice it.

Unfortunately there is no way around the extra weight. At least a mid-drive puts that weight in the best location and you can always put your battery in a backpack if you don’t mind wearing one to keep the bike weight down, making it feel more nibble and pedal lighter.

Best of all, when you get sick on having electric assist or riding a heavy bike, you can simply remove it and sell it off to the next guy or gal that wants to play the electric bike game.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I guess you know the answer.
Try a bike, if no like = no buy.
My Haibike with Yamaha feels like a bike.
Sometimes i forget to start the system.
Obviously i know the weight is still there but after the start it rolls.
Obviously a user who only use the max assist and only owns an ebike
might (( abuse the assist ))
but i have 2 other bikes and i choose to stretch my 500 not buy a bigger one nor a second one.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

It's always going to feel different at least in some situations, but as others have said, you need (at a minimum) to have a torque sensing system and mid-drive. 

I know what you mean about hub motor bikes. My Radpower is not fun to ride at all - but it's good for what it is intended to do (haul kids and groceries). A Levo, on the other hand, is really fun, though (IMO) it still doesn't quite feel quite like a normal bike even on lower power settings.

YMMV.

-Walt


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Is it really possible to make a e-bike feel like a bike when you have more power available than you would if you were just pedaling? I think that is kind of the point of a e-bike it makes you feel like you're 12 again and have unlimited energy to pedal, which is not a normal feeling for an adult on a bike.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

craigsj said:


> Yes, particularly when you get to choose what "feel" means.


That is true "feel" is a very personal thing.

I know my e-bike commuter does not "feel" like the same bike before I did the mid drive conversion, that was kind of the point for me. 30 miles no longer is a drag it is enjoyable so the "feeling" very much changed.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

"Sporty", "Super fast" and "Fast as Lightening" are not the first words that spring to mind for Cargo Class type bikes motorized or not. Especially if not motorized at all. They are utility bikes that suit their purposes motorized or not and perhaps not the best benchmark for rating how eBikes "feel" overall. 

As suggested "feel" can mean just about anything to anybody and about the only way to get any bike, motorized or not, to feel like you think a bike should feel is to mess around with the gearing and adjust your cadence to suit. That is given that is how you define "feel". As noted a cadence sensing PAS and torque sensing PAS are two different ways to activate the system and both can be set up to give the rider what they desire. 

I have my eBikes, both road and mtb, set up to imitate as closely as possible the fit and feel of what I desire based on my years of saddle time. The fit is no different than on my analog bikes. In order to get the feel at the pedals I use a hub motor on my road bike with no PAS so I can be in the gear ratio I desire and switch up and down according to terrain without any interference from the motor. 

I have a torque assist Mid-Drive on my mtb that I use in Eco 99% of the time that at the lower cadences I use for riding trail, especially going up, and choosing the right gear ratio in advance of needing it, which I always have strived to do regardless, feels no different than it ever has with the exception of the fact that the motor does assist in my effort.

Of course the bikes are heavier and so without the assist they don't feel like analogue bikes but they all are able to be ridden without power.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

3 years ago i bought a used mountain bike, all top components it felt like a good bike.
3 months later i went from 32 front ring to 28.
It felt like a great bike.
I am talking about a no assit bike.
Just changing the saddle or improving the fit can realy improve the enjoyment, the feel is much improved.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

A throttle is the most responsive and natural feeling. Rather then be assisted by some pre determined rate of power, I instantly and constantly feed in just the amount I need and want. Riding with some homies on their Haibikes, and me on my BBSHD (assist level zero, but throttle) we rag about this all the time. Why should I use power every time the system senses me pushing on the pedals, which is what torque assist does, correct?! Cadence sensing is even lamer, and why I never use it. This will go over here like a turd in a punch bowl, but a throttle is the most intuitive, sensitive, and efficient way to "go", and my range proves it. Out of my three Bafang bikes, the one with a BBSO2 seems easiest to pedal power off, though it's also the only 27.5"r and also the narrowest tires, so that no doubt helps. I guess maybe I'm a control freak, but I feel the throttle mode results in LESS unwanted assist overall.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

portnuefpeddler said:


> A throttle is the most responsive and natural feeling. Rather then be assisted by some pre determined rate of power, I instantly and constantly feed in just the amount I need and want. Riding with some homies on their Haibikes, and me on my BBSHD (assist level zero, but throttle) we rag about this all the time. Why should I use power every time the system senses me pushing on the pedals, which is what torque assist does, correct?! Cadence sensing is even lamer, and why I never use it. This will go over here like a turd in a punch bowl, but a throttle is the most intuitive, sensitive, and efficient way to "go", and my range proves it. Out of my three Bafang bikes, the one with a BBSO2 seems easiest to pedal power off, though it's also the only 27.5"r and also the narrowest tires, so that no doubt helps. I guess maybe I'm a control freak, but I feel the throttle mode results in LESS unwanted assist overall.


That's actually how I prefer to ride my e-cargo bike (assist set to zero/very low, throttle when I want it). I also find it to be the most "natural" feel, though I'll admit that the throttle (twist type) that came on the Radpower is not the greatest.

-Walt


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## FZBob (Apr 14, 2008)

portnuefpeddler said:


> A throttle is the most responsive and natural feeling. Rather then be assisted by some pre determined rate of power, I instantly and constantly feed in just the amount I need and want. Riding with some homies on their Haibikes, and me on my BBSHD (assist level zero, but throttle) we rag about this all the time. Why should I use power every time the system senses me pushing on the pedals, which is what torque assist does, correct?! Cadence sensing is even lamer, and why I never use it. This will go over here like a turd in a punch bowl, but a throttle is the most intuitive, sensitive, and efficient way to "go", and my range proves it. Out of my three Bafang bikes, the one with a BBSO2 seems easiest to pedal power off, though it's also the only 27.5"r and also the narrowest tires, so that no doubt helps. I guess maybe I'm a control freak, but I feel the throttle mode results in LESS unwanted assist overall.


I agree with all this. (I may be biased due to riding motorcycles for 45 years...)

I have experienced two different throttle implementations with very different "feel"

I had a cyclone kit which had a very primitive controller. It mapped throttle position to motor RPM (neglecting some boundary conditions...). During normal pedaling, RPM varies throughout my pedal stroke, being slowest at the top and bottom. The Cyclone controller locked into a constant RPM, and therefore felt like being strapped to a machine. Also, if I wanted to speed or slow my cadence for obstacles or whatever, it didn't work so well. For this and other reasons, (weight) I dumped it in short order.

I have been using a very sophisticated controller (VESC) for the past year. It has the ability to map throttle position to motor Torque output. Therefore, my natural RPM and cadence variations are not influenced by the motor. My pedal stroke can vary in a normal fashion, with just a constant push. It feels very fluid. It also has the ability to do an exponential mapping, which spreads the low power response, and allows me to dial in say 5o or 100 watts of assist with some precision. This controller is much more enjoyable than the Cyclone.


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## b1rdie (Mar 11, 2011)

I believe that the preset assistance helps a lot with the "real bike feeling". My prefered trails have super technical climbs that demand all the attention I can give, even shifting becames a very complicated action and controling a throttle sounds impossible.
Having only three weeks on the ebike I could from the start take some very difficult climbs with ease, the only thing that was kind of scary is that one's really have to be pointing where you want to go if you push hard on the pedals on boost mode


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

b1rdie said:


> I believe that the preset assistance helps a lot with the "real bike feeling". My prefered trails have super technical climbs that demand all the attention I can give, even shifting becames a very complicated action and controling a throttle sounds impossible.
> Having only three weeks on the ebike I could from the start take some very difficult climbs with ease, the only thing that was kind of scary is that one's really have to be pointing where you want to go if you push hard on the pedals on boost mode


I think the max assist level is not designed for trail use. It is usefull if like me you travel to the trails and back and some just zip their way up by some fire road to enjoy lots of down time. If you use it in trails i hope you are wearing lots of protection gear.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

33red said:


> I think the max assist level is not designed for trail use. It is usefull if like me you travel to the trails and back and some just zip their way up by some fire road to enjoy lots of down time. If you use it in trails i hope you are wearing lots of protection gear.


The Bosch eMTB(Sport) mode is good for 99% of trail situations where I want assist. I only use Turbo on wickedly steep pitches. I turn assist off completely on downhills, because I don't want to inadvertently overshoot corners because I pedaled half a revolution to set up for the next corner and got boost where I didn't want it. I scared the crap out of myself a few times before I learned to do that.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

craigsj said:


> I've not tried that system but have heard the MTB mode talked about in some videos. It is claimed to be somehow adaptive. How would you describe it? It is not a fixed percentage of assist? I can't imagine how learning would be helpful or how varying assist automatically would work well so am curious.
> 
> Could backpedal or downshift to avoid that inadvertent boost problem, if that's easier. Would be very undesirable!


I am curious to learn how each system works.
I have read a lot of hype about Shimano all adjustable but i also read that the lowest of their 3 levels of assist is set for life at 80% of the rider effort.
Hopefully many will reveal facts because we know * so called reviewers * tend to put a positive spin too often.
My 2017 Ebike is a Yamaha system PW with 4 levels of assist. Being the original owner it is probably set at 50%, 100%, 190% and 280%. But i read that regionaly settings might differ. Like if sold in some europeen countries to be legal the max assisted speed might be lower. Mine sold in Montreal, Quebec is set at 32 km/h(20 mp/h). My understanding is lets say i am using level 2, depending on the readings from the 4 different sensors it might deliver up to 100% of assist. If i am going downhill it might be on no assist or very low. If i downshifted to make a stop and slowly restart it might offer me some of that 100% available. If i did not downshift and try to sprint it will deliver 100% assist. My display has some bars that represent the actual assist in real time. Lots of bars means i get a lot of assist wich also means my range will not last 4 hrs. So depending on if i prefer range or speed i can select a mode, i can choose my effort, i can select proper gearing. We can get used and by the noise,vibrations, and feel have a good idea without looking of how much assist we are receiving and at the same time how much we are draining the battery. 
It has no walk mode.


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## kaleidopete (Feb 7, 2015)

honkinunit said:


> The Bosch eMTB(Sport) mode is good for 99% of trail situations where I want assist. I only use Turbo on wickedly steep pitches. I turn assist off completely on downhills, because I don't want to inadvertently overshoot corners because I pedaled half a revolution to set up for the next corner and got boost where I didn't want it. I scared the crap out of myself a few times before I learned to do that.


This is how I find it too on my 2019 Powerfly


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## b1rdie (Mar 11, 2011)

33red said:


> I think the max assist level is not designed for trail use. It is usefull if like me you travel to the trails and back and some just zip their way up by some fire road to enjoy lots of down time. If you use it in trails i hope you are wearing lots of protection gear.


Better believe that!
Was just about to write that one of the fun aspects of starting e-biking: I found myself digging the garage for my paddings 
Now, to wear then on the climbs.
Other danger it seems, would be using clipless shoes , because it could induce an orgasmic uncontrolable fatal spin uphill. The e-bike seems to stick my feet to the pedal and force me to it!


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

KenPsz said:


> Is it really possible to make a e-bike feel like a bike when you have more power available than you would if you were just pedaling? I think that is kind of the point of a e-bike it makes you feel like you're 12 again and have unlimited energy to pedal, which is not a normal feeling for an adult on a bike.


The watts produced by the motor, added to the watts produced by your pedaling, do not equal a linear total. It's a bit like a hybrid car with a gas engine and electric motor(s). The total horsepower from the gas engine and electric motor are about 2/3 of the total if you added them together separately. For example, a hybrid car can have 150 horsepower from the engine, and 125 horsepower from the motor, but do not equal 275 total horsepower, it's more like 225 total horsepower. Same with an e-bike. Last Sunday I did my first 30 mile ride, averaged about 160 electric watts and about 60 pedal watts. The Strava calculated watts, disregarding the fact that I was pedaling with e-power, was 176 combined watts, very similar to the combined horsepower (or equivalent watts) of a hybrid car. If you take into account added weight and added friction, then more power on paper is not really that much more power in reality.

So...if you are able to adjust the electric watts to a certain point, somewhere between 100-200W on a flat surface, yes it will feel like a normal bike as far as pedaling is concerned. The goal would be to get the combined watts to whatever you normally do on pavement or dirt (I normally do 80-140 watts on dirt with pedaling only and no motor). It will not feel normal at that 100-200 electric watt range uphill, you'd have to add more electric watts.

On a different note, I'm starting to ride 200-350 miles/month now, and my middle chainring is worn down. Called the e-bike LBS, and asked them if maybe it's time I just said screw it and did a mid-drive conversion if the front of the drivetrain needed replacing anyway. What he said shocked me. He said no, don't do a mid-drive, do a rear hub drive. What? But I want to mountain bike with it! I asked all of the questions you'd normally ask. He essentially said if the bike is complete, new, brand-name, with a warranty including the drivetrain, then yes, a mid-drive is OK. Otherwise, in almost every other scenario, a rear hub drive is the way to go: cheaper, more reliable, more power, less maintenance. Really? Yes, he said. I have heard that mid-drives are more complicated and the parts wear out faster, but rear hub conversions are more popular on dirt? He said he has done a lot of mid-drive conversions, but almost everyone riding on dirt that goes to the shop is now doing rear hub drives. I felt like pinching myself, wtf? He said they got tired of chains stretching, cassettes wearing out after a few hundred miles, low power, etc. He also said the generic mid-drive kits like the BSS02 and HD were not really designed for dirt. Is that true? I did wonder why the chainrings were so big. He said 'everyone' (of course not everyone) who wants power, as in more than 500W on dirt is doing rear hub drives. They are going TO rear hub drives, that is the trend!

One of the main reasons I got a front hub drive is that I'm not a fan of freewheels. Then I found out that the Bafang 500W rear hub motor kit has a cassette-based option. I'll try to cancel the freewheel-based order and get that one instead. Can't stand not being able to take apart freewheels like you can cassettes and make your own gear ratios...'to get a more natural bike feel' as they say. Hard to believe what he said but he's very respected in my county, including in the SoCal forum, so I guess I'll go with it.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

richj8990 said:


> The watts produced by the motor, added to the watts produced by your pedaling, do not equal a linear total. It's a bit like a hybrid car with a gas engine and electric motor(s). The total horsepower from the gas engine and electric motor are about 2/3 of the total if you added them together separately. For example, a hybrid car can have 150 horsepower from the engine, and 125 horsepower from the motor, but do not equal 275 total horsepower, it's more like 225 total horsepower. Same with an e-bike. Last Sunday I did my first 30 mile ride, averaged about 160 electric watts and about 60 pedal watts. The Strava calculated watts, disregarding the fact that I was pedaling with e-power, was 176 combined watts, very similar to the combined horsepower (or equivalent watts) of a hybrid car. If you take into account added weight and added friction, then more power on paper is not really that much more power in reality.
> 
> So...if you are able to adjust the electric watts to a certain point, somewhere between 100-200W on a flat surface, yes it will feel like a normal bike as far as pedaling is concerned. The goal would be to get the combined watts to whatever you normally do on pavement or dirt (I normally do 80-140 watts on dirt with pedaling only and no motor). It will not feel normal at that 100-200 electric watt range uphill, you'd have to add more electric watts.
> 
> ...


Around here Montreal Quebec the market is split. Some street, some trails. Within buying a trail Ebike we have jobbers selling the lowest price like 1,200$US Efatbike with a front suspension and knowned bike manufacturers far from that price. So some buyers want a cheap motor bike too fast, too powerfull to be legal in many areas but call them Ebike to cheat. I do not focus on speed and i want a legal Ebike so i choose what i want and i do not care if i am in the majority. Obviously an 11 speeds used as a motor bike will eat chains and cassettes, it is a no brainer. Choose what you want, i hope it will be legal.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

richj8990 said:


> The watts produced by the motor, added to the watts produced by your pedaling, do not equal a linear total. It's a bit like a hybrid car with a gas engine and electric motor(s). The total horsepower from the gas engine and electric motor are about 2/3 of the total if you added them together separately. For example, a hybrid car can have 150 horsepower from the engine, and 125 horsepower from the motor, but do not equal 275 total horsepower, it's more like 225 total horsepower. Same with an e-bike. Last Sunday I did my first 30 mile ride, averaged about 160 electric watts and about 60 pedal watts. The Strava calculated watts, disregarding the fact that I was pedaling with e-power, was 176 combined watts, very similar to the combined horsepower (or equivalent watts) of a hybrid car. If you take into account added weight and added friction, then more power on paper is not really that much more power in reality.
> 
> So...if you are able to adjust the electric watts to a certain point, somewhere between 100-200W on a flat surface, yes it will feel like a normal bike as far as pedaling is concerned. The goal would be to get the combined watts to whatever you normally do on pavement or dirt (I normally do 80-140 watts on dirt with pedaling only and no motor). It will not feel normal at that 100-200 electric watt range uphill, you'd have to add more electric watts.
> 
> ...


 He's incorrect. I have close to 5,000 miles on 2 different BBSHD's with zero issues. 2000 miles plus on a fat bike BBSHD used on super rocky and steep dirt bike trails, zero issues. Chains last over 1K easily. He is so wrong on everything, it sounds like purposeful misinformation. You could not GIVE me a hub drive for trail riding. I've had a total of 5 Bafang conversions, 3 of them currently, and none of them have given me any problems whatsoever. I like them so much I now have 2 bikes with BBSHD's and Rohloff hubs, and that is a match made in heaven! I want my e motor to be able to take advantage of mechanical gearing, and also not throw the bike's balance ass heavy.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

richj8990 said:


> The watts produced by the motor, added to the watts produced by your pedaling, do not equal a linear total. It's a bit like a hybrid car with a gas engine and electric motor(s). The total horsepower from the gas engine and electric motor are about 2/3 of the total if you added them together separately. For example, a hybrid car can have 150 horsepower from the engine, and 125 horsepower from the motor, but do not equal 275 total horsepower, it's more like 225 total horsepower. Same with an e-bike. Last Sunday I did my first 30 mile ride, averaged about 160 electric watts and about 60 pedal watts. The Strava calculated watts, disregarding the fact that I was pedaling with e-power, was 176 combined watts, very similar to the combined horsepower (or equivalent watts) of a hybrid car. If you take into account added weight and added friction, then more power on paper is not really that much more power in reality.
> 
> So...if you are able to adjust the electric watts to a certain point, somewhere between 100-200W on a flat surface, yes it will feel like a normal bike as far as pedaling is concerned. The goal would be to get the combined watts to whatever you normally do on pavement or dirt (I normally do 80-140 watts on dirt with pedaling only and no motor). It will not feel normal at that 100-200 electric watt range uphill, you'd have to add more electric watts.
> 
> ...


You got crap information on a hub drive there. I have done both conversions and a mid-drive beats a hub drive any day of the week and twice on weekends.

Electric motors by their very nature want to spin quickly with low load, that is directly opposite of what you get on a hub system. Mid-drive you can control the amps (which is the important part of watts) by changing gears.

Front hub?? Yeah better get ready to break a fork or two.


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## 4REEE (Sep 13, 2020)

honkinunit said:


> ... My biggest complaint is noise, and that may never go away, but the Bosch CX system is pretty amazing already.


I can relate. I hate it when the ebike motor sounds like my radio controlled car.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Bicycle feel ebike means very low and wimpy power because those are the lightest in weight, I just read up on a 1.7kg mid drive but its a dreamer website called indigogo crowd fund, so a big risk.
The next best is to buy major oem mid drives because they spent a lot of money on their bicycles vs enduro suit case box type frames, or diy ebike kit bikes. Plus a mid drive has a different feeling then a hub motor, and hub motors can vary tremendously in weight from a 55h big block 550 cubic inch type ford engine down to the wimpy 20h 1L 3cyl suzuki, major major weight differences. You just have to expirement if your going diy, do lots of research at endless sphere website or pedelec website. But everyones different and everyone rides differently.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

MTBers said:


> Hi.
> Ive done a lot of research and know my technical stuff, but I haven't found anyone who does a comparison between electric bike systems and a regular similar bike regarding the "feeling", not the technical stuff.
> 
> *Introduction*.
> ...


I have been on a Yamaha/Giant Stance E+ for 18 months. You can buy one for a decent price and they are very 
reliable. It has 7 settings of assistance.
No assist
Automated assist but many like me uses
levels 1 to 5
level 1 is like a regular bike
level 2 is a small assist
level 3 is medium
level 4 is more
level 5 is max
without a throttle it does not feel like a motorcycle.
Just put all the parts on the floor than have the fun to build it yourself
wich i did not do. We buy them ready to go.
In 2 seonds you can also remove the battery.


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