# Lamest Friday S&T ever: Paragon bolts



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I may rescue myself from winning the crappy FS&T award later in the day if I have time, but I got a bunch of PMs about this (doesn't anyone just use email? It's not like my address is hard to find...) so here you go: the best hardware for your Paragon sliding dropouts. If a mod with more skill wants to crosspost this to singlespeed and maybe the 29er board, that would be great. Or maybe I'll figure out how to do it myself.

There are a couple of major issues with the Paragon slider hardware:
1: The slider bolts, while pretty and stainless, feature a shallow 5mm allen buttonhead that a 5 year old could strip. You can't get much torque on them, and the slider can easily slip, which leads into problem #2:
2: The tension screws have a tendency to bend, and inextricably bind themselves into the dropout when you subsequently attempt to move them. They're simply too small and thin, and are not, repeat NOT strong enough to resist the force of the wheel attempting to move forward as you pedal. Since the slider bolts don't grip that well, you can end up having to grind the ends of the seized tension screws off with a dremel and leave the rest of the damn things in the holes (as I did, 3 years ago, on the one that I built for myself as a test). 

Here's what I use (and I ship them with all my Paragon equipped frames). These bolts should be available at any decent hardware store. They're not stainless, but you could easily find stainless ones online if you looked around - I simply don't care much - mine haven't rusted significantly or had any problems in over 2 years, and if they did start getting gnarly, they cost <$1 to replace. 

They are M8x16mm cap heads. These use a much deeper, 6mm allen cap head, and can't be stripped unless you're a former East German olympic swimmer. I like to use the lockwashers too for extra grip/bite. They don't make any visible marks on the slider, but they sure make it stay in place well. 

Maybe later today, a less sucky FS&T: the great 953 tube weigh-in. You'll laugh, you'll cry! You'll scream! You'll pay for the whole seat, but you'll only need the edge! Friday friday friday!

Man, I need to get a life.

-Walt


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I think that a two hole washer should be provided with the paragon DOs. Then It would be easier to use other bolt styles.

I prefer e-mail to PM as well. I think that PM is a scurge.


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## VT Mike (Jan 12, 2004)

Walt said:


> Here's what I use (and I ship them with all my Paragon equipped frames).
> 
> -Walt


Did you forget to put something in the box with my frame? 

I had some slipping problems on my first few rides. Never enough to drop the chain, just enough to lose a little chain tension. After a some trial and error, I came up with a procedure that's been working well with the stock hardware.

Back out adjusting screws
Move wheel forward
Use adjusting screws to set chain tension, making sure wheel is centered in the stays.
Blue Loctite on four slider bolts (just enough to get it on the threads, not on the sliders).
Torque slider bolts to 150 in-lb.
Tighten down adjusting screws (usually about 1/8 turn)
Tighten down nuts on adjuting screws (while using second wrench to keep screw from moving).


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Meh.*

Yeah, yeah. I did quite a few using the old hardware before I figured out that this stuff worked better. If you want some bolts, let me know and I can ship some out. Then again, I imagine a trip to the hardware store is just as easy.

Glad you've got 'em working!

-Walt



VT Mike said:


> Did you forget to put something in the box with my frame?
> 
> I had some slipping problems on my first few rides. Never enough to drop the chain, just enough to lose a little chain tension. After a some trial and error, I came up with a procedure that's been working well with the stock hardware.
> 
> ...


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

cool. i might have to start doing that with my rigs i send out. i use sliders on probally 50% of the frames i sell right now. however........ i have sent the stock stuff out to guys up to 240lbs, and not seen any problems. this is not to say that they might not be the DIY type and upgraded them on their own. now here's my thing: i hate the tension screws. esp. the pauls. they all bend and end up with sucky scenarios like you are describing. the pauls have the added bonus of having to remove the al. chingasos as well........one thing i do do is replace the 8mm lock nut with a nylock one. seems to help. steve.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

LOCTITE!

I use loctite on mine every time I turn them. No problems. Just say loctite 1,000 times over.


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

For all of you classy kids who like to roll in geek style
The Mcmaster part number for M8 grade 12.9 blue coated, fully threaded Hex socket screws is;

91303A180

That's about as good as it gets right there folks.


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## cocheese (Jan 12, 2004)

I had my sliders come loose twice but have not heard many folks complain about them coming loose. The first time I thought maybe I had just forgotten to tighten them back up after I changed cogs. The second time I knew somethign was up. It's nice to know that there is a cheap fix because I really like the way they work. Thanks for posting that up Walt.


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## nzumbi (Jun 22, 2004)

I wish I had read this thread and taken action before this weekend. I knew the bolts were crap in my paragons, but I'm lazy.

Minutes before the kick-off of an 18 hour race, I was going to add tension to the chain when I rounded a 5mm panhead. Fortunately, there was enough tension to get me through the 80 miles I rode. Unfortunately, I suffered through it in 34x19 (had planned to slap a 20 on after 2 laps. No such luck). Thanks for the post Walt.

Any advice on extracting the rounded 5mm crap-bolt?


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Paragons ship with 2-hole washers. Sorry, no pic. Same button-head allens.


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## nzumbi (Jun 22, 2004)

D.F.L. said:


> Paragons ship with 2-hole washers. Sorry, no pic. Same button-head allens.


Yeah, I've got those washers. Good stuff. Now I need to get a stripped button-head out of the drop.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

Funny this thread pops up today. Yesterday was a crappy rainy day here in CT - so it was time to do some bike maintenance. Off came the crappy bolts from Paragon and off I went to the Hardware store.

1st Stop - Home Depot. Home Depot sucks for this type of thing and they didn't have what I needed. But I actually got a human being to offer to help me (wow!)

2nd Stop - Sears Hardware - Bingo! They've got what I need. Should have gone here first. I bought regular washers to go with the bolts I picked up (which were slightly longer than the wimpy Paragon bolts) Good to know I should have gotten the "split" washers. Sears Hardware had those in plentiful stock too.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

around here, ACE hardware is the place to go for metric bolts.


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## nzumbi (Jun 22, 2004)

I bought the last 4, sure-to-rust bolts from Lowes. Now I need to extract the bad bolt. Suggestions?


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

A customer of mine dremeled a slot in the head, put a BIG screwdriver in the slot with a wrench on it, and had someone hit the end of the screwdriver with a hammer while he twisted. It was a makeshift impact wrench and it worked. BE CAREFUL to fully brace the dropout or the pounding can ruin the frame.

You can also drill the heads of the bolts off with a carbide drill. The rest will un-thread, unless threadlocked.

If you pressure Walt, maybe he'll buy a few hundred STAINLESS bolts in this size and will offer to package and ship a few to each of us for a meager fee I hear the HT buy only wet his appetite!

Seriously, a group buy might be a good idea...I'm trying to get away from Paragons, but could use enough for a few sets.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

https://pvdwiki.com/index.php?title=PVD_Slider_and_brake_hardware_upgrade


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## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

Although a 12 pt fastener is unnecessary, a shouldered fastener is very nice in this application.The double washer is simply a must.


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## nzumbi (Jun 22, 2004)

I tried dremeling a slot, but the screwdriver didn't bite well and I wasn't going to hit it w/ a hammer. So then I set about dremeling two flat surfaces to get a wrench on. I nearly got down to the washer before I was able to get a pair of vice grips to bite and back it out. Whew. 

Now I have $2 worth of Lowes bolts getting it done. I'll start thinking about the upgrade now...


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

*Paragon Machine Works rebuttal*

Since I suspect Paragon Machine Works doesn't have a presense on MTBR and will not be chiming in, I'll go ahead and offer that the equipment Walt is mentioning is discontinued or old stock. The new hardware is heat treated so they will not round out. The metal on the old stuff was too soft as Walt has described correctly. This from the Paragon Machine Works website:

"This item has four M8 x 1.25 x 18 mm 6/4 titanium replacement bolts and two 304 stainless steel 2 mm thick double washers; they are compatible with all of our sliding dropouts. The bolts have a deeper hexagon, are machined to tighter tolerances, are lighter and can be tightened more than our stock steel bolts. The double washers spread the load from the bolts over a larger area, hold the parts together better and keep your frame from getting damaged from repeated tightening and loosening of the bolts."

Even Ben's Cycles sells them, in which they have a great picture of the kit as it's hard to find on the Paragon site unfortunately. The new generation kit should look like this:









I have to make my way down to Paragon Machine Works myself (they're SF Bay Area local, in Richmond, CA) to get the titanium kit, I have the old stuff and the bolts are slightly rounding out kind of like the torx bolts on disc rotors after installing them twice.


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

dfl: out of interest why are you trying to move away from paragons? what are you trying to move towards?


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## bobbotron (Nov 28, 2007)

*Fastener stores rule for this stuff*

If you're in a big city, there should be a fastener supply store around. Here in Ottawa, there's Ottawa Fastener Supply, which is a bit of a mecca for nuts and bolts. They have a great wall of bolts, including a ton of stainless steel bolts. The nice thing is, if they don't have what you want, they can order it (pretty much no matter what it is you'd like), and it gets there in about 2 days. And they're super nice. Beats the hell out of ordering off the internet!  I bet most cities have some kind of equivalent..

Sadly, between OFS and Lee Valley being on my route to work, it's way too easy to blow a lot of cash on nice stuff I arguably don't need.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Hah!*

You know, I was expecting to lose money (or at best break even) on the head tube project, but amazingly I sold pretty much all the stock (I still have about 15 feet) and I think I made a couple hundred bucks in the end (admittedly, for like 20+ hours of work), so in a way, it did whet my appetite. If I thought I could get any agreement out of people on what they'd want, I'd work on a 30.9 or 31.6 ID seat tube, even, just so that I'd have them for myself.

But the new Paragon hardware is good, so it's probably (IMO) not worth doing a group buy and shipping bolts all over the place.

I can't believe this thread is still going. I didn't think I'd get a single reply when I posted it 18 months ago.

-Walt



D.F.L. said:


> A customer of mine dremeled a slot in the head, put a BIG screwdriver in the slot with a wrench on it, and had someone hit the end of the screwdriver with a hammer while he twisted. It was a makeshift impact wrench and it worked. BE CAREFUL to fully brace the dropout or the pounding can ruin the frame.
> 
> You can also drill the heads of the bolts off with a carbide drill. The rest will un-thread, unless threadlocked.
> 
> ...


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

nzumbi said:


> I tried dremeling a slot, but the screwdriver didn't bite well and I wasn't going to hit it w/ a hammer. So then I set about dremeling two flat surfaces to get a wrench on. I nearly got down to the washer before I was able to get a pair of vice grips to bite and back it out. Whew.
> 
> Now I have $2 worth of Lowes bolts getting it done. I'll start thinking about the upgrade now...


FYI, next time, you can just cut the heads off the bolts. Then, take the wheel out, the slider will fall out in your hand and you can just unscrew the bolts with your fingers.


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

*Paragon Machine Works: MS0022 ti, MS2006 steel*

Here is a link to Paragon's titanium MS0022 and steel MS2006 kit, the essential upgrade and improvement is the "double washer" which prevents bolts from marring-denting-chewing up your frame each and every time you adjust your sliders like when your chain stretches.

From Paragon Machine Works:

"Our bolt kit for sliding dropouts is meant as an upgrade for older dropouts or as a replacement for bolts that have become bent or worn.

The kit consists of four each M8 x 1.25 x 18 button head cap screws, two each M5 x 0.8 x 35 socket head cap screws, two each 2 mm thick double washers, two each M5 thumb nuts and two each M5 hexagon locknuts.

Both the hex nuts and the thumb nuts are meant to be used as locknuts for the adjuster screw. Typically one or the other is used, not both. Some riders use the adjusting screw bottomed out in the thumb nut, making a larger head for the adjusting screw. If you choose to do this, use the hex nut as a locknut.

The bolts are 6/4 titanium and have a deeper hexagon, are machined to tighter tolerances, are lighter and can be tightened more than our stock steel bolts. The double washers are 304 stainless steel and spread the load from the bolts over a larger area, hold the parts together better and keeps your frame from getting damaged from repeated tightening and loosening of the bolts. The hex nuts and 5 mm adjusting screws are zinc plated steel. The thumbnuts are brass."


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

dRjOn said:


> dfl: out of interest why are you trying to move away from paragons? what are you trying to move towards?


My own design. Also hoping to offer a consumer version to go along with some other stuff. Time will tell


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## TheWoodsman (Aug 27, 2010)

I thought you guy's rated the pretty boy Paragons as the 'dogs bolx' (as we say in England). After reading that, I'm now reconsidering the Ceeway ugly fuggers......

Did someone mention Ebb's.......................... ;0)


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

*Paragon Machine Works Titanium Slider Hardware Kit*

Picked up the titanium hardware update kit to replace my 1st generation hardware kit, from the Paragon Machine Works group in Richmond, California. PMW is just down the road from the newly opened "Richmond Spokes" community bike shop (Richmond BART). Have given it rides and SS tension is set-and-forget now! Seen below set up proper on my Ti 29er SS hardtail. :thumbsup:










*The updated hardware kit (steel or titanium - doesn't matter) is a must-have for all Paragon Slider frames. * I had a stripped bolt on my 1st generation kit due to using an old and rounded allen key. Followed PMW Mark's instructions to the letter and the solution worked perfect, the 5/16" drill bit was a new hardened carbide for metals specifically:
_
Removing bolts with a stripped head is no problem. Get a new 5/16" 
drill bit, use cutting oil, or some sort of lube, and drill directly 
into the 5 mm socket. Ease up on the drill as it breaks through, and 
you're done. Removing the bolt head takes the tension off the screw, so 
the leftover chunk of screw in the insert can be removed by hand. If 
not, put a 1/4" drill bit in your drill, and continue to drill the 
headless bolt. The drill will catch, and drive the screw out. If this 
doesn't work, replacement inserts are cheap, a whole lot less than a new 
tire.

The double washer is a HUGE improvement. It should be use in ALL cases, 
no matter what style bolt head the rider is fond of. Here's why: Socket head capscrews have a smaller head 
diameter than a button head capscrew. This small diameter concentrates 
the load on a small portion of the dropout, which essentially will dig 
into the dropout. A bolt head that fits in a dent in the dropout won't 
move, but you're chewing up your frame every time you tighten the bolts._


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

For the price of the fancy Paragon dropouts, I was not at all impressed with the stock hardware.

Does anyone know where I can buy simple brake holder like the Surly 1x1 uses or slightly more complex version used on the Troll.

I have not ridden these simple styles but to me they look better then the complex sliding style. I am torn between using Eccentric BB or simple track ends on my next SS build.


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## marks_bike (Aug 22, 2006)

febikes said:


> For the price of the fancy Paragon dropouts, I was not at all impressed with the stock hardware.
> 
> Does anyone know where I can buy simple brake holder like the Surly 1x1 uses or slightly more complex version used on the Troll.
> 
> I have not ridden these simple styles but to me they look better then the complex sliding style. I am torn between using Eccentric BB or simple track ends on my next SS build.


bike lugs used to have one just like the surly brake mount but they sadly haven't had it on the site for a while now.


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

febikes said:


> For the price of the fancy Paragon dropouts, I was not at all impressed with the stock hardware.
> 
> Does anyone know where I can buy simple brake holder like the Surly 1x1 uses or slightly more complex version used on the Troll.
> 
> I have not ridden these simple styles but to me they look better then the complex sliding style. I am torn between using Eccentric BB or simple track ends on my next SS build.


Look at the Coco Moto drops on Garro's blog- THAT'S what an ss disc drop should look like.


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## marks_bike (Aug 22, 2006)

Live Wire said:


> Look at the Coco Moto drops on Garro's blog- THAT'S what an ss disc drop should look like.


Yeah, those are pretty nice but I don't know if he's selling them.


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

Live Wire: The dropouts appear the same as the "track ends" on my first SS MTB, the 2004 chrome Bianchi SASS. Simpler is better, until your rear hub slips and have to resort to running chain tensioners. D'oh!


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## bushtrucker (Oct 31, 2016)

Walt said:


> I may rescue myself from winning the crappy FS&T award later in the day if I have time, but I got a bunch of PMs about this (doesn't anyone just use email? It's not like my address is hard to find...) so here you go: the best hardware for your Paragon sliding dropouts. If a mod with more skill wants to crosspost this to singlespeed and maybe the 29er board, that would be great. Or maybe I'll figure out how to do it myself.
> 
> There are a couple of major issues with the Paragon slider hardware:
> 1: The slider bolts, while pretty and stainless, feature a shallow 5mm allen buttonhead that a 5 year old could strip. You can't get much torque on them, and the slider can easily slip, which leads into problem #2:
> ...


13 years later and this info is still as relevant as ever. Just ordered some M8 x 16mm cap heads. Cheers Walt!


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