# Grease type



## TalMiz (Sep 17, 2013)

Hi, Can someone help me to select an appropriate grease for general purpose like headset, BB, etc. In addition I want to buy a dedicated grease for a frame bearings. I'm totally confused as there are too many types of grease.

Many Thanks


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

Phil Wood is generally regarded as one of the best bike greases on the market. That being said, most modern bikes will come with sealed cartridge bearings that don't require overhauls like old bearing systems. You can take it upon yourself to "service" them but they are made to be replaced when the time comes, and will generally last long enough to negate any argument regarding the cost benefits of the limited service options.

In particular, you bb will almost certainly be sealed and there is a good chance your headset will too. It is also very likely that your frames pivot bearings are sealed and the only attention they need will be is a shot of grease, if they have ports (like Santa Cruz's bikes), or occasional replacement*. Cup and cone hubs on the other hand are still very common and should be overhauled at least once a year, though properly adjusting them afterwards requires some skill and a few specialized tools. I'm sure Park Tool has a decent "how to" on their website. The same can be said if you have an "unsealed" headset.

*Lifespan of frame pivot bearings seems to be very subjective. It will depend on design, riding style, and local climate. Personally, I rarely come across a bike in need of pivot bearings that isn't past it's usefully lifespan, some further opinions may be helpful on this subject.


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## TalMiz (Sep 17, 2013)

Wow thanks for the great explanation.
I had dissemble a few frame(Rocky mountain) bolts and I saw a white dry grease. So I guess I still need to put some grease. What is white grease, Teflon ? 
I don't think I can buy the Phil Wood here locally and a famous site in the US says: 

"This item is classified “ORM-D” and cannot be shipped via air. It can only be shipped via ground shipping methods. If you add this item to your cart, the list of available shipping methods will be reduced. For more variety of shipping options, consider removing this item from your cart (or placing a separate order using a ground shipping method)."


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## supersedona (Dec 17, 2012)

White grease would likely be a 'lithium' base. It is a basic low viscosity that works for less demanding areas. For hubs I would go with automotive grade red Moly-sulfide which is more moisture and heat resistant. Regardless of the age of the cartridges, I reccomend changing the grease to the proper types because I have had enough cases where the wrong grease was shipped from the bearing supplier. It is simple in most cases other than bottom brackets and saves in the long run. Good cartridges with the right grease last a very very long time(like almost 5k mi of XC racing and commuting in my experience). A set with default low grade grease can be as little as a quarter of that. 

I will second the Phil grease for everything except hubs. Road hubs sure, but automotive moly works a lot better for discs. Phil is also good for cables.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

supersedona said:


> White grease would likely be a 'lithium' base. It is a basic low viscosity that works for less demanding areas. For hubs I would go with automotive grade red Moly-sulfide which is more moisture and heat resistant. Regardless of the age of the cartridges, I reccomend changing the grease to the proper types because I have had enough cases where the wrong grease was shipped from the bearing supplier. It is simple in most cases other than bottom brackets and saves in the long run. Good cartridges with the right grease last a very very long time(like almost 5k mi of XC racing and commuting in my experience). A set with default low grade grease can be as little as a quarter of that.
> 
> I will second the Phil grease for everything except hubs. Road hubs sure, but automotive moly works a lot better for discs. Phil is also good for cables.


Has it been your experience that enough heat from rotors is transferred into the hub to cause issues? I have actually seen a bit of evidence to support this but had a hard time believing it to be the true cause for what I saw.

Also, saying that the grease used by the manufacturer was "wrong" is a misnomer (unless a specific grease was requested or called out in technical information). The grease used by the manufacture was chosen because it provides the performance they desire. While there is inevitable a better choice for every given situation a manufacturer will generally choose the best middle ground for all situations.

I find the best option is to spend a little extra and source quality bearings that require replacement as little as possible, as the act of bearing removal and installation will eventually cause irreparable damage. These quality bearings should come will equally quality lubrication.

It should also be noted that some methods of bearing removal are destructive to the bearing itself. A bearing removed with force to only the "free" race should be considered damaged and not be reused.


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## TalMiz (Sep 17, 2013)

Just checking few websites and see that both Teflon grease and lithium grease are white...So how should I know what grease to use with my MTB frame joints/bearings ?
What grease are you guys using for headset&BB ?(other than Phil Wood grease)
Thanks


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

big_papa_nuts said:


> You can take it upon yourself to "service" them but they are made to be replaced when the time comes, and will generally last long enough to negate any argument regarding the cost benefits of the limited service options.
> 
> In particular, you bb will almost certainly be sealed and there is a good chance your headset will too. It is also very likely that your frames pivot bearings are sealed and the only attention they need will be is a shot of grease, if they have ports (like Santa Cruz's bikes), or occasional replacement*. Cup and cone hubs on the other hand are still very common and should be overhauled at least once a year, though properly adjusting them afterwards requires some skill and a few specialized tools. I'm sure Park Tool has a decent "how to" on their website. The same can be said if you have an "unsealed" headset.
> 
> *Lifespan of frame pivot bearings seems to be very subjective. It will depend on design, riding style, and local climate. Personally, I rarely come across a bike in need of pivot bearings that isn't past it's usefully lifespan, some further opinions may be helpful on this subject.


You seriously don't clean and lube sealed bearings? What a waste. With the possible exception of the BB (never tried, but plan on it this winter - it's new right now as I just switched to external), it's not even that hard. I just do it once in the winter and my wallet has thanked me many times over. You can use fancy grease, but I just use a good marine grease and it's worked just fine. Here's a vid from the folks at Enduro. I hear they make some bearings or something.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

I have. But bearings are cheap, even nice ones are less then $10, and I generally get years of service before problems present themselves so I don't find that it is worth my effort. Not to mention, like I said above, bearing removal is generally a destructive process, to the bearing and it part where it's housed, so "service" becomes a net loss.


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## supersedona (Dec 17, 2012)

On the contrary, as a equipment mechanic in both aviation, automotive, and commercial gym machines I have seen many many cases where a supplier used default grease in a batch of bearings that could work fine in one application but not the intended one. That is the prime reason why I end up replacing bearings prematurely from OEM installations within warranty periods. When the grease is in fact put to what the engineers stated it should be, warranty and general service intervals are usually exceeded by a long shot. Purchasing agents, suppliers, and engineers are not always on the same page and usually the cost wins. That's why there are dozens on dozens of grades of grease if you ever go to a bearing supply house. 

My first experience with that was a set of Sunrace Juju disc hubs. As a 120 lb high schooler, my first xc race melted the grease clean out of them. it was only 20 miles of red dirt, but there was only an oil film left inside and lots of caked mess outside. Brand new out of the box. Replaced the grease with red automotive moly(disc rated) and they went another 5 years of every day use with no problems. I still have those wheels 15 years later and they are on their second set of cartridges.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Bullshot used to be the best, but you can't get it anymore.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

big_papa_nuts said:


> I have. But bearings are cheap, even nice ones are less then $10, and I generally get years of service before problems present themselves so I don't find that it is worth my effort. Not to mention, like I said above, bearing removal is generally a destructive process, to the bearing and it part where it's housed, so "service" becomes a net loss.


So don't remove them. Clean in place isn't much different, except a bit of precaution to keep from making a mess.

One container of grease - ~$4. Lube once a year - probably an hour for the whole bike for the bearings part of my maintenance schedule. I have 8 pivot bearings, plus 2 in the head tube, and 2 (I think) in the rear wheel (one one bike - I have 3 that I ride regularly). At even $5 each, that's $60 for the one. If they last 3 years on your no-maintenance plan, then I'm saving an average of $20/year doing it my way.

Would the perfect grease help? Probably. Did I already choose a reasonably suitable cheap alternative? Yep, lithium-based marine grade. Bearings like that, so I hear (or rather I don't because they don't make a sound - ever). They'll outlast the bike how I ride, so that's good enough for me.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

noapathy said:


> So don't remove them. Clean in place isn't much different, except a bit of precaution to keep from making a mess.
> 
> One container of grease - ~$4. Lube once a year - probably an hour for the whole bike for the bearings part of my maintenance schedule. I have 8 pivot bearings, plus 2 in the head tube, and 2 (I think) in the rear wheel (one one bike - I have 3 that I ride regularly). At even $5 each, that's $60 for the one. If they last 3 years on your no-maintenance plan, then I'm saving an average of $20/year doing it my way.
> 
> Would the perfect grease help? Probably. Did I already choose a reasonably suitable cheap alternative? Yep, lithium-based marine grade. Bearings like that, so I hear (or rather I don't because they don't make a sound - ever). They'll outlast the bike how I ride, so that's good enough for me.


Do you find that your bearings actually need service that often?

I know climate and how often you ride will be big factors but I think the last bearings on my bike that needed replacement were ~5 years old, in a rear hub. For $10 I was able to upgrade the bearings and I plan to get another 5 years, at least. The pivot bearings, headset, and front hub on that bike, of the same vintage, show no signs of needing replacement.

At that rate I will save my time, and use it for riding, and not bother will making a mess.

Also, considering grease, cleaners, rags, ect cost...something I'd bet that at best your even with me, cost wise.

But, different strokes...


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

big_papa_nuts said:


> Do you find that your bearings actually need service that often?
> 
> I know climate and how often you ride will be big factors but I think the last bearings on my bike that needed replacement were ~5 years old, in a rear hub. For $10 I was able to upgrade the bearings and I plan to get another 5 years, at least. The pivot bearings, headset, and front hub on that bike, of the same vintage, show no signs of needing replacement.
> 
> ...


Service that often? I check them all and clean/service what needs it. Peace of mind is worth it to me for that alone.

Grease was $4 for a tube that'd likely last a lifetime if I only used it for this purpose. Cleaners - 1 gallon of concentrated Simple Green for $8. Rags - I use old T-shirts that cost nothing. Etc - there is no etc, just sounds like you're trying to make it sound harder/more expensive than it is. I use the grease and degreaser for other things besides my bike and the amounts we're talking about add up to pennies per bearing. You'd lose that bet.

Time? I said in the beginning I do this in the winter/off-season when I'm not riding anyway instead of watching TV or some other less worthwhile activity.

The only point I was trying to make is it doesn't have to be hard or expensive. If you don't feel like it or have money to pay when it breaks, then that's the reason and that's ok. My way isn't the only way, but it works for me.


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## Bald_Ben (May 2, 2005)

I have a grease gun full of Phil Wood and a tub of EPX at home, but I've used Lucas Red & Tacky in shops. I usually use anti-seize for bolt threads, press-fit assemblies, etc. A lot of shops (and home mechanics) use Park Polylube for everything, and it's OK for a lot of applications (but rarely the best option).


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

noapathy said:


> Service that often? I check them all and clean/service what needs it. Peace of mind is worth it to me for that alone.
> 
> Grease was $4 for a tube that'd likely last a lifetime if I only used it for this purpose. Cleaners - 1 gallon of concentrated Simple Green for $8. Rags - I use old T-shirts that cost nothing. Etc - there is no etc, just sounds like you're trying to make it sound harder/more expensive than it is. I use the grease and degreaser for other things besides my bike and the amounts we're talking about add up to pennies per bearing. You'd lose that bet.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to be argumentative. I understand there are more right ways then one. I just feel like people get so warped up in saving a little money they wind up spending a lot of time and effort.

And in the end we are only debating about pennies spent over a few years time.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

How does Park's blue grease rank for use in bearings? I like the tip the tube has as it makes application to bearings easy.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Sealed bearings are not sealed to prevent regular and ongoing maintenance and service. They are sealed to mitigate contamination, dirt and other material from the bearings. The seals are easily removed to lubricate, service, inspect and maintain the bearings. This simple process efficiently extends the service life and the output quality. In most all cases this can be done in place, without removal of the bearing. 

If you have spent the money on high-end equipment and components, you might consider some preventative maintenance that will extend your investment for some time into the extended future while operating at peak and optimal efficiency. 

$10 for a bearing or all of your bikes bearings? The bearings on my bike far exceed $10.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

Miker J said:


> How does Park's blue grease rank for use in bearings? I like the tip the tube has as it makes application to bearings easy.


It's ok, but there are much better options.


Cleared2land said:


> Sealed bearings are not sealed to prevent regular and ongoing maintenance and service. They are sealed to mitigate contamination, dirt and other material from the bearings. The seals are easily removed to lubricate, service, inspect and maintain the bearings. This simple process efficiently extends the service life and the output quality. In most all cases this can be done in place, without removal of the bearing.
> 
> If you have spent the money on high-end equipment and components, you might consider some preventative maintenance that will extend your investment for some time into the extended future while operating at peak and optimal efficiency.
> 
> $10 for a bearing or all of your bikes bearings? The bearings on my bike far exceed $10.


Like I said above, I get 5+ years or service out of everything other then bottom brackets. That is longer then the useful lifespan of most modern bikes. Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty cheap but I am more them willing to shell out 50 bucks for bearings when the time comes and be done with it.

If your budget doesn't allow, you like tinkering, or you simply feel the need, servicing your bearings is a fine approach. I've done it in the past, but never found any issues that made me think it was worth the effort. Lately I have adopted the "if it ain't broke" approach.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^ Papa, this explanation better articulates your reasoning. In the general point of view, I can agree. I tend to be one of those that enjoy maintaining mechanical things and trying to ensure optimal pwrformance.

I have ridden my Santa Cruz more than 10,000 miles in two and a half years and ongoing preventive maintenance has made that possible with minimal down time.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Cleared2land said:


> ^^^ Papa, this explanation better articulates your reasoning. In the general point of view, I can agree. I tend to be one of those that enjoy maintaining mechanical things and trying to ensure optimal pwrformance.
> 
> I have ridden my Santa Cruz more than 10,000 miles in two and a half years and ongoing preventive maintenance has made that possible with minimal down time.


This. Down time sucks. Poor performance, too. And I can totally admit to falling on the tinkering end of the spectrum, though I don't obsess over it. Winter in the midwest gives me plenty of time and as I'm going over things I can imagine all the fun I'll be having later. Oh, and good music and a foamy beverage or two can make the time fly.


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## supersedona (Dec 17, 2012)

Cleared2land said:


> Sealed bearings are not sealed to prevent regular and ongoing maintenance and service. They are sealed to mitigate contamination, dirt and other material from the bearings. The seals are easily removed to lubricate, service, inspect and maintain the bearings. This simple process efficiently extends the service life and the output quality. In most all cases this can be done in place, without removal of the bearing.
> 
> If you have spent the money on high-end equipment and components, you might consider some preventative maintenance that will extend your investment for some time into the extended future while operating at peak and optimal efficiency.
> 
> $10 for a bearing or all of your bikes bearings? The bearings on my bike far exceed $10.


Very well said. It is such a common mindset in industry that 'sealed' bearings are like maintenance free batteries. I had to drill it out of my subordinate tech for a while. He would automatically replace dry cartridges even if they were un-pitted or unworn. At least 70 percent of what I run into in machinery can be regreased and saved. Of course the majority of those are 3-4 inch diameter that dry out before wearing out.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Perhaps this topic has gone a little 'off topic'. The OP's original question was to help him to select an appropriate grease for general purpose like headset, BB, etc.

It seems that Phil wood grease has gotten some strong support and Parks general purpose grease has some too. There are numerous high quality greases and lubricants that are readily available (bike and non-bike purposed). 

I have spent many years (literally) working and experimenting with nearly every imaginable range of lubricates and greases (some marketed for bikes and others engineered for specific aerospace applications). There is some very high quality and readily available stuff out there. Bottom line, over the years, I have tried nearly all of the commonly available lubricants actively marketed for the bicycle industry. Most are of high quality, but personally I feel most all are overpriced. Some ridiculously overpriced. Whatever floats your boat. There are also reasonably priced, high quality, application specific lubricants readily available.

Lubricants are very application specific given a number of variables or factors. What is your objective for this lubricant? What is the operating environment and what are you expecting from it? Is the frequency of maintenance an issue or of concern?

If you're predominately operating in a wet and/or dirty environment, you should be targeting a lubricant that will likely be a water-proof grease. These greases tend to be heavier, and thicker. And as such these lubricants will offer wonderful protection from water (and wear), but at a cost. Not in money, but in efficiency and effort. More drag on the component as a result of the heavier and thicker grease and thus more energy to achieve a desired output.

If you ride in a drier environment, you might want an entirely different lubricant. You might not have need for the thicker, water-proof grease and can consider a lighter lubricant. The benefit from running a lighter grease is the lower coefficient of friction and a lower amount of effort to achieve a desired output.
The trade-off in lighter grease is sometimes a greater maintenance frequency, but less rolling resistance. 

It's a wide open field out there for choosing an appropriate lubricant that's best for your specific needs. I will only suggest that you inquire, question and understand what might be best for your application.


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## TalMiz (Sep 17, 2013)

Cleared2land said:


> Perhaps this topic has gone a little 'off topic'. The OP's original question was to help him to select an appropriate grease for general purpose like headset, BB, etc.
> 
> It seems that Phil wood grease has gotten some strong support and Parks general purpose grease has some too. There are numerous high quality greases and lubricants that are readily available (bike and non-bike purposed).
> 
> ...


Thank you.
Can you advice for a lighter grease and a thicker as well ?
Can I use the same grease for both bearings and BB, headset, etc... ?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

TalMiz said:


> Thank you.
> Can you advice for a lighter grease and a thicker as well ?
> Can I use the same grease for both bearings and BB, headset, etc... ?


Before I address some of your questions, let me say that many people use one lubricant for everything and some use application specific. A good, all-around grease that you could use for everything would be Shimano, Parks Poly Lube 1000 or Finish Line white Teflon greases. There are many more that would be high quality grease that would fit the task. And there are several high quality automotive greases that would work too. Automotive lubricants tend to be heavier and thicker, but considerably less expensive that bike branded lubricants.

Phil Wood grease is of very high quality, but one of the thicker lubricants. I have tried it and simply felt it presented more drag and resistance than I was personally interested in.

Buzzy's Slick Honey is perhaps my favorite lighter lubricant and generally all-around grease. I use it for not only pivot and wheel bearing applications, but fork and shock "O" ring lubricant during rebuilds.

While I think most lubricants work great for all-around applications, some will use a heavier marine type or water-proof grease in the bottom bracket bearings seeing that these bearings will more likely experience more water and heavy usage. Generally speaking, headsets can use the lighter lubricants all the time, but any of your chosen lubricants will work fine.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Cleared2land said:


> Before I address some of your questions, let me say that many people use one lubricant for everything and some use application specific. A good, all-around grease that you could use for everything would be Shimano, Parks Poly Lube 1000 or Finish Line white Teflon greases. There are many more that would be high quality grease that would fit the task. And there are several high quality automotive greases that would work too. Automotive lubricants tend to be heavier and thicker, but considerably less expensive that bike branded lubricants.
> 
> Phil Wood grease is of very high quality, but one of the thicker lubricants. I have tried it and simply felt it presented more drag and resistance than I was personally interested in.
> 
> ...


Awesome explanation - and thanks for getting us back on the rails. Apologies papa if I came off a bit harsh.

I do have a question about the Buzzy's , specifically in pivot bearings. I read some conflicting info on another site (can't find it now, of course) that thicker and more water resistant is better. How much difference would it make to use thin vs. thick? I mean it's not like they spin really fast, right? Thanks again! 

*edit: found where I saw this - video from Art's Cyclery


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I agree that a thick grease might be a better lubricant on the pivot bearings. My logic might be flawed in that respect because of being lazy. I keep Buzzy's in a syringe and it's quick and easy to pop a seal and give the pivot a quick shot of fresh lube. I do this every couple of months. If I were to only lube during the winter or off season, I would take the time to use a thicker grease. I'm just lazy. Oh...when you lube pivot bearings, rotate them 90 degrees. They get stuck just going back and forth like a washing machine drum.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Cleared2land said:


> I agree that a thick grease might be a better lubricant on the pivot bearings. My logic might be flawed in that respect because of being lazy. I keep Buzzy's in a syringe and it's quick and easy to pop a seal and give the pivot a quick shot of fresh lube. I do this every couple of months. If I were to only lube during the winter or off season, I would take the time to use a thicker grease. I'm just lazy. Oh...when you lube pivot bearings, rotate them 90 degrees. They get stuck just going back and forth like a washing machine drum.


I don't know that lazy is right. Lighter lube more often would have the same effect (especially w/that tip about 90 degree rotation to keep from wearing all in one spot - thanks!). Especially since you ride a LOT of miles, that means more wear. Checking more often makes sense, but also takes more time so you get it done quick so you can get back to riding/life. I'd call that efficient (and effective).

I'd say I ride somewhere close to 1/2 as far, so my checks on things like that are less often. Less frequency means I have a greater need to put something that's a minimal performance sacrifice (I won't notice LOL), but with greater longevity.

2 different solutions for 2 different situations FTW!


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I always say "whatever works for you...is what works for you". Different paths to the same solution.


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