# Haibike at Outerbike



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

eBike manufacturer Haibike had a booth at Outerbike. I spent 30 minutes on a Haibike Nduro 9.0: Haibike | We are ePerformance.

Holy crap, is that a nice bike. It is the first super high end MTB eBike I've ever ridden. I made it a point to ride with 0 power for a long way, to try to simulate how you would do if the battery died or there was some kind of failure with the motor system. It simply rides like a heavy high end MTB. Not bad at all, except for the steeper climbs. Downhill, you felt the weight, but the suspension was properly tuned, and it handled everything fine. I would have no problem riding that thing on rough trails for 10 miles back to the trailhead with no assist.

I ran out of time, or I would have tried the DH version.

Two things I did not like about the bike:

1) Even with the motor off, the drivetrain makes very loud clicking noises when pedaled. Think of the way some rear hubs will have the buzzing bee effect when coasting, but a louder and more coarse sound. This made it impossible to ride without people noticing something was up with the bike. A more stealth mode would be nice. 
2) The power control required tapping up or down buttons repeatedly. I thought a more elegant solution would be a dial, or at least allow you to push on the button continuously and have the controller cycle all the way up/down. BTW, the Shimano electric shift works like that, if you hold on the downshift/upshift button, it will downshift/upshift all the way to the end of the cassette. The bike I rode had standard XT derailleurs, but having Di2 would be awesome on this bike.

Moab has gone stupid on ebikes on some of the newer trails and has banned them, but there are still tons of riding opportunities out there. After all, trails like Slickrock and Sovereign were built for MOTORCYCLES, which means the haters would have a hard time banning ebikes. I love it when I am riding Slickrock and some idiot yells at someone on a motorcycle for riding on "their" trail. It was first and foremost built for motorcycles. I think it will take a few years for people to get over their fear of ebikes. The only reason anyone noticed I was riding the Haibike was the annoying clicking sound while pedaling. Ebikes are going to open a lot of new opportunities for riding, if we can get people over their fears, and their egos of being passed by someone who is "cheating". IMHO, unless you are riding the same 32lb, 15 speed, steel, cantilever braked, unsuspended MTB I started riding on, you are "cheating". What do disk brakes and full suspension do for you? Allow you to ride more terrain, and ride it faster. Same with ebikes. No difference.


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

I basically ignore "ebike haters". I live in an area though not chock full of "your doing it wrong" type of people. I be like "dudes, smoke a bowl and chill out man". Too many people in this world trying to control others that it bleeds in to situations that don't make a bit of difference. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

honkinunit said:


> eBike manufacturer Haibike had a booth at Outerbike. I spent 30 minutes on a Haibike Nduro 9.0: Haibike | We are ePerformance.
> 
> Holy crap, is that a nice bike. It is the first super high end MTB eBike I've ever ridden. I made it a point to ride with 0 power for a long way, to try to simulate how you would do if the battery died or there was some kind of failure with the motor system. It simply rides like a heavy high end MTB. Not bad at all, except for the steeper climbs. Downhill, you felt the weight, but the suspension was properly tuned, and it handled everything fine. I would have no problem riding that thing on rough trails for 10 miles back to the trailhead with no assist.
> 
> ...


The motor is what differentiates them. The Motor. As far as bans in Moab, the federal government will ban whatever they feel the need to, so they're "haters" I guess.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> Moab has gone stupid on ebikes on some of the newer trails and has banned them, but there are still tons of riding opportunities out there. After all, trails like Slickrock and Sovereign were built for MOTORCYCLES, which means the haters would have a hard time banning ebikes.


They've always only been allowed on motorized trails, which are as you said, are plentiful and awesome. How can you ban something if it wasn't allowed in the first place? Serious question.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

honkinunit - Why did you start this thread as a helpful review of a bike and then go sideways on some diatribe about trail access?

I would suggest you edit your first post to keep it just to the review. Trail access is a hot topic on MTBR and this sort of thread always leads to flame wars and eventually the threads get binned cause no one wants to be reasonable about any of it.

http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/before-you-post-here-ebike-forum-rules-read-me-1022310.html


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

The Brose system addresses the noise during pedaling with the motor off I believe. The Haibike probably had a Bosch or Yamaha system. May be one of the Levo owners that has a Brose will chime in.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Harryman said:


> They've always only been allowed on motorized trails, which are as you said, are plentiful and awesome. How can you ban something if it wasn't allowed in the first place? Serious question.


Umm, because they were banned in 2014?

In the News: Moab BLM bans electric bikes on non-motorized trails | VeloNews.com


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> honkinunit - Why did you start this thread as a helpful review of a bike and then go sideways on some diatribe about trail access?
> 
> I would suggest you edit your first post to keep it just to the review. Trail access is a hot topic on MTBR and this sort of thread always leads to flame wars and eventually the threads get binned cause no one wants to be reasonable about any of it.
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/before-you-post-here-ebike-forum-rules-read-me-1022310.html


Take a look at where backing down has gotten motorcycles, 4x4s, and yes, mountain bikes, when it comes to trail access.

Edit my ass. Delete it if you don't like it.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Bigwheel said:


> The Brose system addresses the noise during pedaling with the motor off I believe. The Haibike probably had a Bosch or Yamaha system. May be one of the Levo owners that has a Brose will chime in.


Haibike uses both Bosch and Yamaha. The one I rode was Bosch.


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## Johnny_T (May 29, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> 2) The power control required tapping up or down buttons repeatedly. I thought a more elegant solution would be a dial, or at least allow you to push on the button continuously and have the controller cycle all the way up/down. BTW, the Shimano electric shift works like that, if you hold on the downshift/upshift button, it will downshift/upshift all the way to the end of the cassette. The bike I rode had standard XT derailleurs, but having Di2 would be awesome on this bike.


Maybe just a "throttle" like any other motorcycle instead of pretending to be a bike??


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Johnny_T said:


> Maybe just a "throttle" like any other motorcycle instead of pretending to be a bike??


Maybe actually understanding how an ebike works instead of making comments not worthy of 12 year olds?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

The BLM doesn't allow motors of any kind on non-motorized trails... anywhere, right? 

There's a ton of moto trails to ride in Moab, great place for an e-bike. Green River to GJ area has a load too. I used to do an enduro (Snakebite!) out there that had something like 100 miles of singletrack. 

-Walt


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Bigwheel said:


> The Brose system addresses the noise during pedaling with the motor off I believe. The Haibike probably had a Bosch or Yamaha system. May be one of the Levo owners that has a Brose will chime in.


My Levo is dead calm and yes you can cruise it like a mtb with no motor, until you come to a big climb, then you better be Saigon!


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Walt said:


> The BLM doesn't allow motors of any kind on non-motorized trails... anywhere, right?


Nope, it's not a new policy.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

There is a specific thread for arguing access. I agree with Klurejr that we should excise any drivel about access except in that thread and ban anyone who does it more than once. It's disgusting to have every thread gravitate to crap like this one.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Walt said:


> The BLM doesn't allow motors of any kind on non-motorized trails... anywhere, right?
> 
> There's a ton of moto trails to ride in Moab, great place for an e-bike. Green River to GJ area has a load too. I used to do an enduro (Snakebite!) out there that had something like 100 miles of singletrack.
> 
> -Walt


BLM made a *specific* ruling in 2014 banning ebikes from some trails in Moab. Prior to that, riding an ebike was not an issue. Some of the trails where ebikes are banned were historically motorcycle terrain.

I find huge irony in the fact that the very first far north Klondike trail (Sovereign) was built by and for motos. Without their efforts, there probably wouldn't be any trails at all up there other than Klondike itself. Now, people ***** about ebikes on trails where motos rode for years. I used to ride my motorcycle all over the Bar-M area slickrock, now you can't even ride an ebike up there. So much for "trail access". In another 20 years they'll probably ban ebikes from all the Blue Hills area trails like Mary's Slickrock, probably at the same time they ban motorcycles, Jeeps and UTVs.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

The moto folks blew it, and blew it bad. I was there too. Something to think about.

-Walt


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

honkinunit said:


> eBike manufacturer Haibike had a booth at Outerbike. I spent 30 minutes on a Haibike Nduro 9.0: Haibike | We are ePerformance.
> 
> Holy crap, is that a nice bike. It is the first super high end MTB eBike I've ever ridden. I made it a point to ride with 0 power for a long way, to try to simulate how you would do if the battery died or there was some kind of failure with the motor system. It simply rides like a heavy high end MTB. Not bad at all, except for the steeper climbs. Downhill, you felt the weight, but the suspension was properly tuned, and it handled everything fine. I would have no problem riding that thing on rough trails for 10 miles back to the trailhead with no assist.
> 
> ...


Look I get it. It sucks when people don't like something you spent a lot of money one, or want to spend a lot of money. However understand that calling anyone with a dissenting opinion a hater just makes you look juvenile. If you think that people are upset at e-bikes cheating or it is an ego thing, you need to do some more reading. Access and trail rules are the reason. Ebikes are banned on part of moab because of federal rules. Just like motorbikes are banned in parts of moab and 4x4's. There is no ego nor is there cheating, no fear of the future. What people want is respect of the rules so that access for other users isn't jeopardized.

And as others have said, your review is lost with your insistence at making a poorly argued connection to trail access and rights. I doubt anyone will get the review part but they will get the access part and about the no difference part, i beg to differ.


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

I tell you what I get out of this. People feeling like they have to defend themselves everytime they post ANYTHING on an ebike. While it is true I've lost interest in the review. It is also true people that have them or want one have to put up a fight about it everytime they turn around. And for what? I mean seriously. Really dig down deep and ask yourself if an electric motor is being disrespectful. There are MANY laws I don't agree with...like it's OK to beat on your wife in Texas so long as it's done at sundown and on the courthouse steps. I mean REALLY????? THE one thing I know, I will NEVER spend my money out west on tourism. Perhaps that's what people are truly shooting for? Thin out the numbers? I'm betting there is a far more mature way to do that! Just sayin

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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

What?

-W


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> I tell you what I get out of this. People feeling like they have to defend themselves everytime they post ANYTHING on an ebike. While it is true I've lost interest in the review. It is also true people that have them or want one have to put up a fight about it everytime they turn around. And for what? I mean seriously. Really dig down deep and ask yourself if an electric motor is being disrespectful. There are MANY laws I don't agree with...like it's OK to beat on your wife in Texas so long as it's done at sundown and on the courthouse steps. I mean REALLY????? THE one thing I know, I will NEVER spend my money out west on tourism. Perhaps that's what people are truly shooting for? Thin out the numbers? I'm betting there is a far more mature way to do that! Just sayin
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I think the laws governing their usage on trails are not based on "respect". They are based on a set of statues developed by land managers as a means to manage the lands. You might not agree with what they are but they are there for everyone's benefit. They spent their time and developed this statues to ensure that the lands and users could be managed equitably and safely. Some places decided that they shouldn't have motors on trails. Whether this was established to protect wildlife, trails, pedestrians or whatever, it was decided.

The mature thing would be to follow the rules. The immature thing is that the manufacturers are selling these bikes in areas where they are not legal to ride on trails. Example is Seattle. There are no trails in King County parks that these bikes are legal to ride on yet there are stores that sell Levo's and other e mountain bikes.

California has developed a set of laws that govern how much wattage can be allowed on trails however they have still given the local trail managers that option of banning even these users on the trails for whatever reason.

The people that have to put up a fight about them are the ones that are riding them in illegal areas. There are many riders on here that ride them legally on trails where they are legal and you don't see them having to defend themselves. The only people that have to defend themselves are the ones that are posting about riding them illegally somewhere.

I know the Levo jump thread will be drawing ire because it is in a section of California forest where motorized bikes are not allowed. Enforceable action probably not but getting shamed on MTBR, totally will happen.

If trail laws aren't relevant to you, I suggest you should check out the national parks and go for a ride. They are after all, no bikes on trails zones, but that seems like a bad law, check it out.

It was a pretty easy decision somewhere back in time and we are still fighting to get access to those trails decades and decades later. If you think that there is nothing to lose, just imagine a no bike trail on your local state land. On your local county parks land. I mean I know, texas, tons of land but all it takes is a few pissed off rich people and boom, trail access gone. Just ask anyone from Marin county, the birth place of mountain biking. Ask anyone that lives in Boulder CO. Anyone from the town of Los Altos Hills, CA. It can happen and if you think it can't you are deluding yourself.

All anyone is asking is for a sense of understanding from the ebike proponents that maybe a more sensitive and measured approach to trail access would win over people vs. the whole "we are no different than mountain bikes, we belong, blah, blah, blah" which is the general mantra which just pushes the regular mountain bikers away from your cause. You can't sell someone on your benefits to the community, all the while ignoring their concerns about your inclusion.

And the wife beating thing, not something I would bring up, definitely makes me not want to spend a cent in Texas.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> THE one thing I know, I will NEVER spend my money out west on tourism.


*shrug*

Ok


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

Thanks for proving the whole point about the west guys. You guys are quite offensive about the issue. 

Can't wait to see how many Clinton supporters show up out there this election as well. Enjoy handing over your rights!

Happy trails.

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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> Thanks for proving the whole point about the west guys. You guys are quite offensive about the issue.
> 
> Can't wait to see how many Clinton supporters show up out there this election as well. Enjoy handing over your rights!
> 
> ...


Ah politics, good job on the rational discussion. Enjoy your e-bike on your legal dirt, where ever that is.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

This actually isn't the first time e-bikes and Trump/Clinton have come up here. Super weird. 

-W


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

Walt said:


> This actually isn't the first time e-bikes and Trump/Clinton have come up here. Super weird.
> 
> -W


Yeah Walt. I've taken this example to a whole plethora of Marine VETs like myself. This issue is being passed along to the disabled veteran community. We have every right to take an assisted bike on ANY trail in the USA we so choose. These laws have got to stop! Somebody has to fight for rights...even if it is disabled warriors.

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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> Yeah Walt. I've taken this example to a whole plethora of Marine VETs like myself. This issue is being passed along to the disabled veteran community. We have every right to take an assisted bike on ANY trail in the USA we so choose. These laws have got to stop! Somebody has to fight for rights...even if it is disabled warriors.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


An ADA disability allows you to ride an ebike on any trail a bike is allowed on already.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> Yeah Walt. I've taken this example to a whole plethora of Marine VETs like myself. This issue is being passed along to the disabled veteran community. We have every right to take an assisted bike on ANY trail in the USA we so choose. These laws have got to stop! Somebody has to fight for rights...even if it is disabled warriors.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


The federal guidelines on opds are very clear and LMs should totally understand both the intent and direction provided.

Due to the terminology of the statute LMs need to define what constitutes acceptable usage on a trail, because the opd statutes allow any motorized vehicle anywhere if it isn't defined. Which would include atvs or 4x4s.

As long as the user had an issued ada placard they can use their opd on a trail. The LMs or LEOs can inquire whether they have a placard but not the reason for it.

The opd guidelines override local, state and federal guidelines on non motorized trails. You could conceivably ride to the bottom of the grand canyon and back and be one of the few people to do it, and the only one legally. Though one could argue that if you could ride to the bottom of the grand canyon on a bike you might be taking advantage of your disabled status, like those people that park in accessible stalls, jump out of their cars and run into the grocery store, while a person that needs that spot circles waiting for another spot to open (saw this a lot when I lived in AZ).

There hasn't been a person on mtbr who has suggested that e-bikes don't belong on trails when used as an opd but LMs are behind in meeting the requirements to define appropriate opd uses for their managed trails. Thankfully most mtb and hiking trails are too narrow and too technical for someone to use an atv on them, but if they are not defined as bike, foot, and scooter opd only, they could conceivably use them and request that they be made accessible for use in an atv or motorcycle.


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

While you might be "knowledgeable rockcrusher. .. I'm seeing you as blind to real world points. I got 8 pages of word doc already on complaints about how disabled status is getting kicked off the trails because of your example you use in Arizona. Not an excuse....and I'm not buying into it.

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> Thanks for proving the whole point about the west guys. You guys are quite offensive about the issue.
> 
> Can't wait to see how many Clinton supporters show up out there this election as well. Enjoy handing over your rights!
> 
> ...


How are they "offensive" about stating facts?

Land managers are tasked with ... wait for it... managing the public lands within their jurisdiction, while permitting the public to access those lands.

To do this, they attempt to minimize conflict and minimize damage.

There are still far more hikers and equestrians out west than their are cyclists; those people vote, show up to meetings, and donate more money than cyclists, generally speaking. So, they have more, larger, and more powerful lobbying groups like the Sierra Club that speak for them.

Now, many of those hikers and equestrians barely tolerate, or don't tolerate, cyclists. What do you think happens when we start adding motors to bikes? Do you really think that will be good for trail access as a whole? The Sierra Club and their ilk are already using e-bikes as fodder for arguing for denying cyclists access to trails, or against the construction of trails by MTB-centric groups.

If you have a legitimate disability, an ADA placard is quite easy to obtain, and with it, access to the vast majority of trails that other cyclists enjoy.

For a hard-ass marine, you sure are quite sensitive.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> While you might be "knowledgeable rockcrusher. .. I'm seeing you as blind to real world points. I got 8 pages of word doc already on complaints about how disabled status is getting kicked off the trails because of your example you use in Arizona. Not an excuse....and I'm not buying into it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Ok, whatever, I don't make the policy nor do I enforce it. I just read the docs and that is what they said. The US Legal system is behind you. Raise suit and make the land managers comply, you legally have every right to do so.

Believe me, my job involves a ton of accessibility rights and design.

sent


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rockcrusher said:


> Believe me, my job involves a ton of accessibility rights and design.


It would be better if you said, "Believe me, my job involves a ton of accessibility rights and design. I know more than the lawyers. And I'll hire the best experts. We'll be the best at accessibility and design. I'll make every accessibility and design dream you've ever dreamed come true."


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Nobody here has ever spoken against people with ADA placards riding e-bikes. 

Now, on the other hand, if you are posting pictures of hitting 4' drops or epic/fast 3 hour strava rides, or whatever, a lot of people are going to wonder why exactly you need special accommodations, but that's another issue. Not that that sort of thing has ever happened on this forum...

-Walt


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

Thanks for the info Walt. I'm sure there are interested parties on why that sort of thing was never reported. Glad you stated that you noticed.

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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> While you might be "knowledgeable rockcrusher. .. I'm seeing you as blind to real world points. I got 8 pages of word doc already on complaints about how disabled status is getting kicked off the trails because of your example you use in Arizona. Not an excuse....and I'm not buying into it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I will clarify that those people I saw park in ADA stalls had ADA placards yet had no trouble getting out of their car and running to the store. It was AZ, a lot of people drive their grandparents car and just park in the ADA stall because they have a placard. Drove me insane.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> I will clarify that those people I saw park in ADA stalls had ADA placards yet had no trouble getting out of their car and running to the store. It was AZ, a lot of people drive their grandparents car and just park in the ADA stall because they have a placard. Drove me insane.


I have seen that before. I guess it is just up to the police to actively pursue those sorts of crimes, but in most cases the police have bigger crime to fight. Who really loses out in a scenario like that is a placard holder who has major mobility issues and cannot park in a placard spot due to it being filled by someone using a vehicle or placard that does not belong to them. Quote sad.

A very good friend of mine has a Placard, he convinced his doctor to give it to him after having a titanium rod inserted into his leg when he shattered his femur in a Snow Boarding accident. He has the slightest of limps and readily admits he does not need it, he really wanted it for the Free Access to National Parks and discounted access at State Parks n BLM Campgrounds. He keeps his placard in his truck, but I never see him use it. However he uses his Card to get into National Parks every year when we do big motorcycle rides. I almost want to ask my doctor to give me one only for that reason. I do have a torn aorta, I bet I qualify.


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