# how much faster?



## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

How much faster are E-bikes vs regular MTBs in singletrack?

I'm about 1 minute per mile slower than the leaders in my racing class and about 2 minutes per mile slower than my elite/cat1 buddies. Will I be able to keep up with an e-bike?

Are any of the manufacturers changing geometry significantly to suit the new drivetrain? I would think much shorter cranks and a lower BB would be advantageous.

The power output on these bikes seems to be a bit low especially for fat guys. Are there any tuner companies out there yet, who have kits with say 1000W motors? I also noticed most US manufacturers are sticking with pedal assist,while I've seen some Euro manufacturers have hand controls. What is the final verdict on this?


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Somewhat confused here. You are going to be racing an e bike? As to power, some places like CA regulate the output as per law. Where are you riding? in US or Europe? Looked at motorcyles? They make electric ones with 2,4,6,000 watts.


----------



## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

Wisconsin. I doubt I'd be able to race XC on an e-bike, but at least I'd be able to ride as fast as the fast guys and learn skills while I work on my fitness.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Try this, get a light bike, ride it. There will always be somebody faster than you, unless you are a top pro. Do some hill repeats, long slow distance rides, mix in some 40-60 mile road rides. Extra coffee too. Wisconsin allows motors on mixed use trails? Not so here in MA for the most part. Fat guys? Hmmm. Training, weight management, proper eating for biking all seem to work for me. What do you think all those other racers do?


----------



## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

I have a mid drive kit that is 750 watts that is installed on my bike, and I picket up about 2 miles per hour faster on a single track loop that I used to ride when I was in fairly good shape. so I went from doing the loop as a average of about 8 mph to doing it now out of shape with a e bike at average mile per hour 10 mph. Mine also has a throttle override so. 

Yes they do make 1000watts mid drive kits that will be my next purchase


----------



## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

I have lots of bikes. Some light, some not. My rigid SS is under 20#. My old 80s BMX is over 40#. I have a fatbike, a 27.5+ AM hardtail, and a couple FS29ers. None of them however are $10K superbikes.

I ride as much as my work/family obligations allow, but not nearly as much as my Cat1 buddies. About 10hr/week during the warmer months and 4hr/week in the winter with a couple days a week at the gym weight lifting. I do eat too much, and I'm working on that.

Isn't the whole point of an e-bike to be able to ride faster and longer than you can on a regular bike?


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

slowride454 said:


> Isn't the whole point of an e-bike to be able to ride faster and longer than you can on a regular bike?


For some people that seems to be the only point, yes.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

IMO,
1) You'll definitely be faster on an eMTB (how much depends on the track).
2) eMTB's probably won't make you any faster on an MTB than regular training; if anything they'll be less effective than an MTB.
3) eMTB's are a different experience if you're bored after 35 years of MTB like me.
4) eMTB's may facilitate getting in shape better than an MTB for out of shape riders.
5) eMTB's probably will keep individuals riding at an older age.

Remenber, these are just my opinions (subject to change).


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Point? Faster n longer? If it only were so easy. So, trying to get less fit? Isn't the point of biking and exercise is get in better shape? I thought that was the point? Hmmm. I guess I'm not getting the point.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I don't bike to get in better shape, I ride for the experience and the rush. Getting more fit as a result is a bonus.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Just get a moto. You'll be faster than all of them.


----------



## hilltopcrew (Jun 30, 2010)

An Ebike is a moto. That is what the purpose of an electric motor is? Right? To increase power without using your natural ability/cardiovascular system. Cutting a 80hp Harley down to 1hp does not make it a bicycle, it is an underpowered motorcycle. Same thing if I add 1hp to a bicycle, it ceases to be a bicycle, and becomes an underpowered motorcycle.

If you buy a decent electric motorcycle, take it on your trail with your cat1 buddies, and already have the technical skills required to ride at cat1 speed, you will destroy your buddies, if you want. Or be able to "close the gap" whenever a hill approaches.

Just remember that you may also potentially destroy trail access. Please be sensitive in areas where there are high density of riders (urban areas, or areas with close access to population centers) , passing others on your motorcycle (as we all should even when pedaling) , areas where the trail surface is delicate and require high trail maintenance. 

Strict pedal power bicycles inherently limit trail damage and other access issues by requiring a high physical requirement that reduces the speed, distance and frequency of trail use. Motorcycles eliminate this hurdle, an open trails to over use, and destruction by people who do not care about trail damage and closure, and who do not understand how much effort, money, time, maintenance, friendship building with private landowners, state local and federal governments to get the trails we currently enjoy.

I live and ride in areas (Florida, Ohio) where there are high populations and limited choices to ride within 1 hour drive considering traffic after work and limited public land/legal mtb parks. The terrain does not respond well to high traffic and no maintenance. Wet clay, exposure tree roots in Ohio, Sand and protected species and habitats in Florida. Electric motorbikes have the potential to drive up the number tires in the dirt because anyone can crack the throttle, no skill or fitness required. The trail will get much greater use, and someone who is too lazy (or physically unable) to pedal there bike is highly unlikely to be out on "trail day" to help with maintenance. Moreover the stereotypical mtb culture (outdoorsy, care about nature and wildlife yadda yadda)and minimum fitness required usually balance our MTB impact to the parks trails with maintenance. Ebike threaten this balance. 

I don't hate ebikes, however I hate the idea of anyone (ebike or pedal bike) threatening access to new trails and the trails we currently have. Currently it seems (at least in Ohio and Florida) that the balance is in our favor and new trails are opening, and we are creating a mutually respectful and productive partnership with landowners/Stewarts. 

Ebikes, no bullshizz threatens this. Tread Lightly.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

hilltopcrew said:


> An Ebike is a moto. That is what the purpose of an electric motor is? Right? To increase power without using your natural ability/cardiovascular system. Cutting a 80hp Harley down to 1hp does not make it a bicycle, it is an underpowered motorcycle. Same thing if I add 1hp to a bicycle, it ceases to be a bicycle, and becomes an underpowered motorcycle.
> 
> If you buy a decent electric motorcycle, take it on your trail with your cat1 buddies, and already have the technical skills required to ride at cat1 speed, you will destroy your buddies, if you want. Or be able to "close the gap" whenever a hill approaches.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the education. So that's how it works.. Don't hate Ebikes? Bull biz.


----------



## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

hilltopcrew said:


> An Ebike is a moto.


 I've never pedaled any of my motos. I can't even find the pedals![/QUOTE]


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

NEPMTBA said:


> I've never pedaled any of my motos. I can't even find the pedals!


[/QUOTE]

The pedals are there, the cranks are just really, really short, as the OP suggested.


----------



## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

slowride454 said:


> How much faster are E-bikes vs regular MTBs in singletrack?
> ...
> Will I be able to keep up with an e-bike?
> ...
> The power output on these bikes seems to be a bit low especially for fat guys. Are there any tuner companies out there yet, who have kits with say 1000W motors? I also noticed most US manufacturers are sticking with pedal assist,while I've seen some Euro manufacturers have hand controls. What is the final verdict on this?


Mid or center-drive PAS eMTBs are the best way to go if riding with faster folks or climbing hills vs. pushing to top.

Read about 'em over here;
<https://dirtmountainbike.com/e-bikes>

With a PAS eMTB, how fast it goes is determined by how hard/fast you pedal AND how much assist is selected. More assist for faster speed, less range. All PAS are 20mph-max assist in usa as delivered.

The last paragraph, with the mere mention of 1000w motors, sends the lurking e-bike haters & access-control Nazis into a feeding frenzy. Careful... ;-)

Go demo the various models & see what you think.

Good luck,

Catfish ...


----------



## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

Hard to say exactly if an e-bike will let you keep up. You'd certainly close the power gap, so if there is a lot of climbing it would probably work. Lots of techy descents? Maybe not so much. Flat areas could be a wash too, long hauls the e-bike might have an advantage, but for short sprints a Cat 1 racer might exceed the speed limiter built into the e-bike.

1000w probably isn't legal in most areas, I think 750w is the cutoff for US standards of a class 1 e-bike. 250w bikes are likely common because that's one of the standards in Europe, if you haven't tried one, an extra 250w is nothing to ignore especially if you are riding with Cat 1 riders.

Throttle vs pedal assist might have some classifications issues as well (others will be more knowledgeable about this) with throttles not being "class 1" so again you have to worry about access in areas that otherwise allow e-bikes. Europe has a more mature market for e-bikes, hence more options, along with their classification system.

For what it's worth, pedal assist felt normal-ish to me when I rented them in Europe. Not sure I'd like having to deal with a throttle and pedal power.

Short answer is probably try to demo one yourself and see if it works.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Jump on a Levo and you will smoke your buddies. Period.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Assuming the same technical abilities, you will absolutely kill your friends on an assist bike. Even a 250w assist is going to put your average fat Joe average into top grand tour rider power/weight ratio range, so it's not hard to put two and two together on that.

You can do the math here: Speed

Assuming a non-technical climb at 5% (on pavement, to make things easy) and 10kg of motor/battery:
Unassisted 75kg rider producing 300W (very strong amateur) - 6.5 m/s (14.5 mph)
Assisted 75kg rider and 10kg motor/battery producing total 550W - 9.4 m/s (21 mph)

I actually tested a LEVO on a paved climb about 5% grade and could hit the ~18mph limiter pretty easily without going very hard (I could certainly have reached 21 mph without the limiter) - but that's on pavement. Speeds will drop for both assisted and unassisted riders on dirt, but the overall percentage difference will be similar if there are no significant technical challenges. I would imagine on a non-technical dirt climb I could also

-Walt


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Jump on a Levo and you will smoke your buddies. Period.


You give hilltopcrew a hard time and then post something that basically validates his/her point.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> You give hilltopcrew a hard time and then post something that basically validates his/her point.


Yeah because, "too lazy to pedal their bike uphill... don't do Trail work and know trail etiquette.. I don't hate Ebikes.. NEWSFLASH, not everyone that buys a Ebikes is a friggin newbie and doesn't help out. This has been beaten to death. Just tired of hearing it. I don't care if you like or dislike Ebikes, but don't bash them or insinuate that the riders are jackasses and then follow up with " I don't hate Ebikes."


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Yeah because, "too lazy to pedal their bike uphill... don't do Trail work and know trail etiquette.. I don't hate Ebikes.. NEWSFLASH, not everyone that buys a Ebikes is a friggin newbie and doesn't help out. This has been beaten to death. Just tired of hearing it. I don't care if you like or dislike Ebikes, but don't bash them or insinuate that the riders are jackasses and then follow up with " I don't hate Ebikes."


So in short, no dissent will be tolerated. That's what that sounds like tbh. For the record, I hate emotorbikes. I was on the fence about them but then posters like you led me to believe that they should be eradicated. Congrats, your turning your potential supporters into anti's every time you post.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> So in short, no dissent will be tolerated. That's what that sounds like tbh. For the record, I hate emotorbikes. I was on the fence about them but then posters like you led me to believe that they should be eradicated. Congrats, your turning your potential supporters into anti's every time you post.


I was waiting for you to chime in TT. I'm glad you hate Ebikes. Why are you posting here? I hate golf, but don't post in forums. Anyrate, I'm glad you hate Ebikes. People like you are too closed minded to be a supporter, so no loss there. Who's next?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I think the heart of the issue is that you really can't compare speed on an e-bike to speed on a true MTB. Sure, you might be able to cover the same trails in the same amount of time as guys that are faster MTBers, but you're not playing the same game, so if becoming a faster MTBer is the overall goal, riding MTBs more is the way to do. Though if you're not all that comfortable hitting stuff at higher speeds, I suppose an e-bike would help with improving that comfort level, much like riding DH does.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gutch said:


> Yeah because, "too lazy to pedal their bike uphill... don't do Trail work and know trail etiquette.. I don't hate Ebikes.. NEWSFLASH, not everyone that buys a Ebikes is a friggin newbie and doesn't help out. This has been beaten to death. Just tired of hearing it. I don't care if you like or dislike Ebikes, but don't bash them or insinuate that the riders are jackasses and then follow up with " I don't hate Ebikes."


I hate e-bikes that aren't being used on roads or rails-to-trails. It appears that you ride in Western NC regularily. I hope you don't bring your mopeds to Western NC.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I hate e-bikes that aren't being used on roads or rails-to-trails. It appears that you ride in Western NC regularily. I hope you don't bring your mopeds to Western NC
> 
> Happy new year to you too! Mopeds everywhere.. the horror, spotted owls getting run over and ginseng getting roosted on. The horror! If you follow the ebike threads, you'll know I sold my Ebike a few months ago. However, if you see a New Rip 9 ripping Pisgah proper, be sure to say hi to me.


----------



## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

I did not know they were speed limited. That kind of sucks. On short sprints I cannot keep up with my buddies but I still can go more than 20mph.

I've never done and FTP test, but plan to in the next week or so. I weigh 250. my cat1 buddies are all 120-150. Their bikes weigh a few pounds less since they are full carbon and mine are not. So if I'm at 2W/kg and my friends are 5W/kg I don't know if 250W would make up the difference. I need to work on my technical skills a bit, but generally speaking I can hang with or run away from my friends in downhill and pumpy sections, but when things start heading upward, or there are many slow speed turns to accelerate out of that's when I lose sight of then VERY quickly.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

So, take some skills classes and work on tech skills. Humping a 50 lb bike over the trails probably won't help there. So, lighter bike, maybe shed some weight, improve the cardio, and pedal more, easy/peasy. Not everyone can be a cat one rider. Myself included. Nor do I want to be. I commute to work by bike year round, get about 2,000 commuter miles every year. Ever try to work your bike into commuting, errands or utility rides? Ride with some new folks? On our organized group rides, we all start pedaling. Anywhere from 10-25 people. After 15 minutes, the faster group goes one way, the rest go another. Meet up for brews at the end. I too get the work/ family obligations. Work it into your life. I used to pedal with the kids the 3 miles to the Sat am soccer practice. My suv suburban neighbors thought that was far. Yikes. Got a trail a bike, tandem, or trailer for the kids? Lunch rides at work? Before work? To work? Plenty of options available. Seek some out. 4-6K for a good e bike. What would a good, light full sus 29er cost? The same. Do any road rides? Great for cardio work out without getting beat up. And less time to do 30 miles of road vs 30 of mt biking.


----------



## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

IMHO eMTB's are all about the fun factor and getting those that have trouble climbing out on longer rides. You will easily be able to climb with your buddies as long as it isn't super technical, then skill level will come into play. Your buddies will still smoke you down hill though.

20mph+ on an MTB off-road not on a decline is really fast for most riders. If you can do that for distance, then you are a pretty strong rider. Spend your time working on skill level to improve greatly. Not all eMTB's are speed limited and those limiters are fast becoming hacked. 20mph is plenty fast for me.

I started at 56 with a low-end HT eMTB, then bought a low-end build high-end FS MTB. After selling my starter eMTB, I started a custom eMTB HT build for a second kick around bike. They are really fun rides, but not best for all things.

Personally I still lack lungs, so an eMTB is a great thing to keep the enjoyment factor high when there is lots of climbing. I've even toyed with adding a E-assist for climbing only to my CS Hightower. It would be throttle/button on/off when climbing and just dead weight on the bike the rest of the time. E-assist vs. weight is a tricky tradeoff...


----------



## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

I will be working with 2 of my friends who are certified MTB trainers to work on skills. My manuals and bunny hops need work for sure. I bought my first hardtail(GT Karakoram) in the spring of 2012 so I still have a long way to go.

I ride to work when I can. My ride is about 9 miles each way and I sometimes take the long way home(30-40miles) when time and daylight permits. Right now I'm limited to the trainer in the basement and fatbike races on weekends. I live in north-eastern Wisconsin. We organize MTB group rides through our IMBA chapter during the summer so I get to ride with other skill levels on Wednesday nights. Again, during the summer, I do a road group ride on Tuesday nights with my son in the trailer or trail-a-bike. They have 3 groups, I generally ride with the mid group (17mph average). On non-race weekends I try to do a local charity ride with my son in the trailer. I can't quite do a century with him behind me yet. I do 50-75 fairly well. In 2016 I did 10 fatbike races, 12 MTB races, a little under 2000 miles on the road, and about 1000 on the dirt.

My current bikes include:
Specialized Roubaix
Soma Double Cross
Sears & Roebuck 60's cruiser
Trek Farley 7
80's GT Dyno
Specialized Carve SL
Canfield Bros Yelli Screamy B+

and my most recent addition is a 2016 Pivot Mach 429SL frame and Fox F34 fork which will get the drivetrain from my aluminum 2014 Salsa Spearfish.

Nothing super exotic about any of my builds. Mostly in the $2k-$3K range for my current stable.


----------



## hilltopcrew (Jun 30, 2010)

They know I am correct. 
The issue is that people still want to use em on trails. More fun less effort = more people an less trails to ride. That's my only ax to grind.

I'd use an ebike on the road any day. It would be awesome to go 50 miles with 25 miles worth of human power. I could use a bike to go just about anywhere I could with a car assuming good weather.

But I bristle when Trek has em in their stores with 130mm travel and plus tires!!!!! If you have trails that can take the abuse, go for it. I don't live and ride in areas that could withstand that much traffic that has no care in the world about the trail itself.


----------



## hilltopcrew (Jun 30, 2010)

Walt said:


> Assuming the same technical abilities, you will absolutely kill your friends on an assist bike. Even a 250w assist is going to put your average fat Joe average into top grand tour rider power/weight ratio range, so it's not hard to put two and two together on that.
> 
> You can do the math here: Speed
> 
> ...


I can drop 350 watts for an hour straight and I am spent. It is enough to keep up with all but the expert/elite riders or super light ones (as I weigh 200lbs/91 kg). If you gave me an additional 150 watts. I would crush you all...lol

And before you say I'm a fattie, I'm in around 12% body fat at 6'1''.

Just pedal your bike.


----------



## hilltopcrew (Jun 30, 2010)

Simply put. You know who I am talking about. 

The reality os that a very small percentage of ebikes will be on the trail with disabled people and the elderly or similar. The majority will be people that don't want to do the pedaling, an that saids something about where their head is at. 

Downhillers usually believe that there should be a (weed out) feature early in a trail to keep people off that don't have the skills to ride, it keeps newbs from getting hurt and prevents the unskilled from ruining the trail. I don't get pissed because I can't clear the jump or huck the drop because most of the time my wheels are on the ground, I try to get better. (Thank You Ray Petro)

To expand, you also know that people that pedal their bikes ALSO can hurt trail access.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

How do you maintain 250 with all that activity? Looks like you have some latitude to speed up there. I'm 6'1", old, eat like a hog and ride an emtb some of the time and can stay at 180 pretty easily.


----------



## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

I have a thyroid issue(Hashimoto's disease), but I don't think it is the problem. I'm 5' 11" and have weighed as much as 278 and as little as 208 over the last 15 years. I wrestled in college at 167 and I'm guessing that is around what I should weigh. If I eat less then 1600 cal/day I lose weight. If I eat more then 1800 cal/day I gain weight. regardless of my activity level. I actually gained weight during the race season last year. I'm trying to do 1400 cal/day right now to try to get to 210 by May, but it is slow going. I stood on one of those body composition scales with the handheld part too. It gave me some very sad numbers. 30% body fat, 17% is visceral and only 32% muscle. This made me pretty sad since I've lifted weights for most of my life and feel fairly strong in comparison to "normal" people. I used to play lots of sports all the way through college and into my 30's. I'm 41 now and almost all my exercise comes from cycling and weight lifting with a little running thrown in here and there. I gained most of my weight while working a high stress 50-60hr/week job, while going back to school to get an MBA and the birth of my son. He is 6 now and I've been riding since spring of 2012.


----------



## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

oh and it looks like Orbea uses shorter cranks and a low BB with their bike.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

OK, I won't look into the mirror for awhile (always scary for me anyway) since my face is covered with egg AGAIN. Congratulations on having a goal, and I hope and pray that you achieve it. Probably my average size bite of food is about 1400 calories.


----------



## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

It is hard for me because I've always been a big eater. I used to go to all-you-can-eat buffets or order the largest thing on the menu for the challenge or to out do my friends. That eating style did not really catch up to me until my mid 20's when I started to add a few pounds here and there. I carry my weight well I guess, because nobody ever guesses I weigh as much as I do so the added weight kind of snuck up on me at first.

So back to e-bikes. The conversions have me intrigued, but an OEM integration would probably fit my schedule better. I'll have to see if any of my LBS get proper MTBs and not just cruizers in the spring. The e-bike would not be my primary bike obviously. I'll be racing on the Pivot and training with the rigid SS and 29+ fatbike.


----------



## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

Here's just what you are asking in cold hard numerical facts and human "feel" words of wisdom. When watching the video remember that here in the United States the eMTB will have a 20mph limit, not 15mph. That makes a huge difference, because hitting the speed limiter "feels" like hitting a brick wall.

Electric mountain bike vs cross-country mountain bike - which is faster? - BikeRadar

This really demonstrates the advantage the eMTB has when climbing, as well as, the disadvantages it has elsewhere.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

IMO
1) The ebike will not accelerate your fitness regimen.
2) If you are successful with your weight loss, you'll catch up with your pals.
3) At your age, you don't need an eMTB, but with good one you would keep up.
4) eMTB's are a fun option (FOR ME).
5) Something here may conflict with earlier post (know more about you now).


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Whiptastic said:


> When watching the video remember that here in the United States the eMTB will have a 20mph limit, not 15mph. That makes a huge difference, because hitting the speed limiter "feels" like hitting a brick wall.


That's assuming everyone follows the rules and is also riding an OEM emtb. I'm old, fat and hardly a renegade and if I had an emtb, bypassing the restriction would be the first thing I'd do, I doubt I'm that unusual.

Considering how fluid the real world definition of an ebike is in this country, the OP's thread title should be "How much faster is a 250w 20mph limited ebike?" 250w, 750w and 3000w powered bikes are all considered ebikes by those who ride and sell them, to ignore that will be detrimental to all advocacy, both ebike and mtb.


----------



## sml-2727 (Nov 16, 2013)

I would suggest finding new riding buddies that are the same class rider as you. Also not everything has to be a race, just ride and have fun, if your slow going up hill (like me) who gives a f#*k , just take your time.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

FWIW and not to argue, I haven't even considered modifying my Haibike and basically geared down my BBS02 to 20 mph off road with a 30 tooth chainring.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

An ebike is generally slower, due more weight, and the power not being usable unless it's very easy riding. The only place I'd be faster on an ebike is on long non tech climbs.

Ebikes don't make you faster on the downs or on technical terrain, you're misunderstanding their application.

Pedal assist won't make up for poor fitness or excess weight. If you want to be faster, you gotta drop the weight, and you need to train.

And why is it important to stay up with your racer buddies? That doesn't sound like fun, maybe you need a different crew...

Go demo one, you'll answer your own question.

The haters need to cease and desist on the trolling, it's getting old...


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fos'l said:


> FWIW and not to argue, I haven't even considered modifying my Haibike and basically geared down my BBS02 to 20 mph off road with a 30 tooth chainring.


That's fine by me. On the trails I ride, the sections where I go over 20 are not numerous, they're rocky and twisty for the most part. I ride from my house though 90% of the time and can easily go faster than that, so anytime I'd be hovering around 20, it would be annoying. Back off, make it easier and go slower than I want, or start dragging a chain and push through it for a few more miles per hour.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Nurse Ben said:


> An ebike is generally slower, due more weight, and the power not being usable unless it's very easy riding. The only place I'd be faster on an ebike is on long non tech climbs.
> 
> Ebikes don't make you faster on the downs or on technical terrain, you're misunderstanding their application.
> 
> ...


Not according to this:

Electric mountain bike vs cross-country mountain bike - which is faster? - BikeRadar

All the deceitful post about emotorbikes being benign are also getting rather old.....


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> An ebike is generally slower, due more weight, and the power not being usable unless it's very easy riding. The only place I'd be faster on an ebike is on long non tech climbs.
> 
> Ebikes don't make you faster on the downs or on technical terrain, you're misunderstanding their application.
> 
> ...


I have been passed by an old man smoking a cigarette with his fat grandson, both wearing jeans. I am not a fast climber but I can hold my own. So, your BS is getting really old.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Were they on Ebikes?


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Haha, yes they were.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I have been passed by an old man smoking a cigarette with his fat grandson, both wearing jeans. I am not a fast climber but I can hold my own. So, your BS is getting really old.


Dude, are you thinking I'm somebody else?

My wife has an 6Fatty FSR, and had a 6Fattie HT.

I know exactly what they're capable of in my capable hands, and the only place I'd want one is on a long flat climb

They're not anywhere near as agile or fun as a non ebike, the weight is very obvious. As a strong rider, I have no need for assist.

My wife rides one because she's not strong enough to ride with me sans assist. I used to haul her around on a tandem, which kicked my ass and was more scary than fun; we ride tech stuff.

No BS here, just reality. I don't like to mislead people and the OP asked an honest question.

But if you're riding on the beach or the local bike path, an ebike can make it easier to sustain a high rate of speed, but if the terrain gets that easy, a good level of fitness will do the same


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Everybody rides a little different. I can tell you when I had my Levo FSR Expert, I could rock super techs climbs. The extra momentum was huge and traction was insane.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

tiretracks said:


> Not according to this:
> 
> Electric mountain bike vs cross-country mountain bike - which is faster? - BikeRadar
> 
> All the deceitful post about emotorbikes being benign are also getting rather old.....


Haters gotta hate, trolls gotta troll.

The idea that a strong rider on an ebike could outride a similar rider on a non ebike is immaterial. No strong rider would choose to ride an ebike, because....wait for it....
THEY DON'T NEED IT.

This is a straw man argument in it's fullest bloom.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Gutch said:


> Everybody rides a little different. I can tell you when I had my Levo FSR Expert, I could rock super techs climbs. The extra momentum was huge and traction was insane.


I ride my wife's once in a while, it does nothing for me, the power isn't subtle (surges), it rides akward, and I can easilly exceed the cut off unless I'm on a long grinder.

If there was no weight difference and the power came on smoother, your point would be valid. Maybe that's what worries the haters. ..

The reality is that power assist will not turn on a significantly greater number of new riders. It may keep some old farts in the game longer or allow folks like my wife to ride more advanced trails.

It's just a tool.

But I still wouldn't buy one, I don't need it


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Dude, they are just fun! Something different for a change. I ride all disciplines of biking and have for a while. I'm an ex moto guy as well and I can tell you that super experienced riders dig playing on these. Will it replace my other bikes full time? Hell no.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Nurse Ben said:


> Haters gotta hate, trolls gotta troll.
> 
> The idea that a strong rider on an ebike could outride a similar rider on a non ebike is immaterial. No strong rider would choose to ride an ebike, because....wait for it....
> THEY DON'T NEED IT.
> ...


Except that strong riders do and already have. They've posted in this forum. Your spurious claims are entirely refuted and have zero credibility.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> The idea that a strong rider on an ebike could outride a similar rider on a non ebike is immaterial. No strong rider would choose to ride an ebike, because....wait for it....
> THEY DON'T NEED IT.
> 
> This is a straw man argument in it's fullest bloom.


Yep, slow, awkward, and only good for keeping fading old farts in the game a little while longer.


----------



## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well I did my first FTP test over the weekend. My wheel was slipping a little on the trainer, but I think the test was fairly accurate and extremely humbling. One of these 250W bikes could potentially make me more than 2X faster. My FTP was only 240W.

I'll look at the Specialized and Trek offerings in the spring. Does the electric motor help with the FSR pedal bob, or make it worse?


----------



## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Well the OP did inquire about pedal assist/hand controls and 1000w motors....sounds like he has moved past eMtb's.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> The idea that a strong rider on an ebike could outride a similar rider on a non ebike is immaterial.


Of course, everyone rides them because they're slower and less fun. It seems in more mature markets, the "only old, out of shape guys will ride them slowly" isn't true any longer.

https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-reviews/e-bikes/e-mtb-vs-mtb-facts.html


----------



## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

mtnbikej said:


> Well the OP did inquire about pedal assist/hand controls and 1000w motors....sounds like he has moved past eMtb's.


The reason I ask about hand controls is smoother and more on demand power application. Sometimes you can't get a pedal stroke in or too much power is applied with pedal assist systems. I asked about higher power because I'm a gearhead/hotrodder and because I weigh 2x as much as many of my riding buddies.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Very few (don't know of any offhand) OEM bikes have throttle-assist possibly since CA, UT & NC don't allow them in Class 1 bikes. Those I know who have tried throttle on DIY bikes like the option. FOR ME, a torque sensor works well since the motor (SEEMS TO) provide power as long as there is pressure on the pedals allowing the bike to stop (or almost) and "keep going". With DIY, rpm sensored bikes need to be ridden a little more carefully, but one can usually maintain forward momentum.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Harryman said:


> Of course, everyone rides them because they're slower and less fun. It seems in more mature markets, the "only old, out of shape guys will ride them slowly" isn't true any longer.
> 
> https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-reviews/e-bikes/e-mtb-vs-mtb-facts.html


Wahahaha! That article claims that a powered "off" ebike is 2 minutes faster on a downhill track than an equivallent non ebike.

Seriously, you all need to read for content.

And now the OP is talking about throttle control?

I'm out, this is too much silliness for me.

To the OP, just go friggin demo a damn ebike and stop asking these cubicle jockeys for their opinions.

I'm all for ebikes, but the OPs question is plain silliness, and the devolution of the discussion is no more than what I should expect.

It's a bike.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Personally, I think I'd prefer something like constant pedal assist but with a throttle override, so you can jam it if and when you want. There could be a lot of fun to be had with something like that. If I'm gonna drag a motor around all over the place, it better jump when I say jump.


----------



## hilltopcrew (Jun 30, 2010)

slowride454 said:


> Well I did my first FTP test over the weekend. My wheel was slipping a little on the trainer, but I think the test was fairly accurate and extremely humbling. One of these 250W bikes could potentially make me more than 2X faster. My FTP was only 240W.
> 
> I'll look at the Specialized and Trek offerings in the spring. Does the electric motor help with the FSR pedal bob, or make it worse?


Pretty sure I said that ( and Walt) in this thread long ago. With an FTP of 350, I'd be unstoppable with an additional 250w. If I get paralyzed, or lose a leg, I'll be all over one.

And to clarify, I've been on an emoter-bike before, great fun on a moterized approved trail. Stay off the singletrack


----------



## hilltopcrew (Jun 30, 2010)

slowride454 said:


> The reason I ask about hand controls is smoother and more on demand power application. Sometimes you can't get a pedal stroke in or too much power is applied with pedal assist systems. I asked about higher power because I'm a gearhead/hotrodder and because I weigh 2x as much as many of my riding buddies.


 You don't weigh twice as much as me ( unless you are over 400 lbs naked) the heavier you get the harder it is. But I bet your 120 lb buddies don't want to wrestle you ...lol. 
Just get a pasEbike, and gave fun an be sensitive to trail access. No one will have anywhere to ride if we screw it up. If no one notices you are riding an ebike, you are doing it right.


----------

