# Custom-Built Triple Cree XR-E LED Light - Finished



## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

I received my Cree XR-E LEDs and Ledil optics today, so I was able to finish my latest bike light. It is a helmet mount, but could be used on the bars as well. I tried it out in the back yard compared to my Triple Luxeon III light and it is substantially brighter and has a good flood-to-spot beam ratio. The cool thing is, it's drawing 1/4amp less current from my battery than the Luxeon III LED light.

Tonight, I finished up and took photos of installing the LEDs and electronics. There are also a couple of beam shots in my back yard that compare the TriLuxIII to the TriCreeXR-E. The photos don't do either light justice ( a bit underexposed), because they are both bright lights. But the Cree model does rule!

Casing/Housing build stage photos

Final stage build pics.

Here's another close-up shot of the light.









In case you missed the TriLuxIII build thread:

and the Dual Luxeon V light thread.

Enjoy!


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## Gilbo (Nov 10, 2006)

Very fine job, you can start mass production with these quality build lamps and knock cateye off their feet:thumbsup: 
i've ordered 1 9° and 1 15° ledil lens, have I done this wrong? I see that you used 4 and 9 degree lenses.


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## rasw01 (Aug 14, 2006)

Achesalot - fantastic light

Wonder where you got the Nflex board from? 

Cheers


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## Gilbo (Nov 10, 2006)

http://www.taskled.com/ i suppose it was here


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Gilbo said:


> Very fine job, you can start mass production with these quality build lamps and knock cateye off their feet:thumbsup:
> i've ordered 1 9° and 1 15° ledil lens, have I done this wrong? I see that you used 4 and 9 degree lenses.


Thanks Gilbo.
The 4° looks kind of weird by itself. It has sort of a square hotspot, but mixed with the two 9° lenses it works pretty well. Not a beautiful beam on the wall, but looks great outside. The 9° seem nice... about right. You might get a nice beam from 3 9° lenses. It would be more floody though. Let me know how your combo of lenses work out.

It was sort of a trick figuring out how to center the stars so that the Ledil lenses would fit in the 3 aluminum sections and fit well over the LED at the same time.

As Gilbo said, the nFlex board came from TaskLed.com.


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## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

achesalot said:


> I received my Cree XR-E LEDs and Ledil optics today, so I was able to finish my latest bike light. It is a helmet mount, but could be used on the bars as well. I tried it out in the back yard compared to my Triple Luxeon III light and it is substantially brighter and has a good flood-to-spot beam ratio. The cool thing is, it's drawing 1/4amp less current from my battery than the Luxeon III led light.
> 
> clip...
> Enjoy!


Really nice job :thumbsup: !

The pictures of the project are fantastic - they help to answer some of the questions I had about the Cree details...

Can you tell how hot the assembly gets? My first attempt with a luxeon III made me build my K2 emitter with the electronics separate from the LED housing. The heat would eventually kill the electronics and gradually reduces the LED light output. It seems like it wouldn't be a problem as long as you are riding, but if you stop for more than 5 mintues, the temperature easily gets to 65 - 70 degrees C  .

I am also interested in how to get decent light patterns out of the Cree optics. Thats why I just went ahead with my K2 project - I knew what I could get from it...Any chance you get to post beam shots would be appreciated!

Cheers


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

airman said:


> Really nice job :thumbsup: !
> 
> The pictures of the project are fantastic - they help to answer some of the questions I had about the Cree details...
> 
> ...


Thanks airman. I tried to cover as many steps as I could with photos.
My experience with the Luxeon III and Luxeon V lights I've built tells me that the lights stay cool to the touch while riding (I typically ride in temps between 55 F and 70 F) They will get warm indoors if left on high for a few minutes. All of my lights have dimming capability so that I can dim the light if I'm stopped for more than a few minutes between trails... and I generally find that I want the lights dimmed while not riding anyway... so as not to blind others (the light is on my helmet and when I face someone to carry on a conversation, my light blinds them and theirs blinds me). Some new nightime riders seem to forget this courtesy and blind people with 500+ lumens of HID at the trail head.

I'll try to get some beamshots before the weekends over.


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## [email protected] (Jan 4, 2004)

Very nice looking. Do you feel that you lose some illumination with the frosted lenses? I've seen others do this, and it seems that with a wider lens, but not diffused, you'd get more light. 

Good job and thanks for checking out the Crees so fast.


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## ladracer (Oct 20, 2006)

*great looking light*

i am contemplating building my own bike light soon (maybe two; one for the helmet, one for the bars)

leaning towards an overvolted 12v 20watt halogen taken from scar's design on this forum (pondlight)

then i saw your cree creation

can you tell me roughly the light output comparision between your light and the overvolted 20 watt halogen and can you give the bunch of us your materials supplier and cost of materials to build.

ie are these parts way more expensive than the halogen build.

thanks

again great looking lite.


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## jmitchell13 (Nov 20, 2005)

Thanks for the update...

It looks like the Cree's are worth upgrading to. What bin LEDs did you end up getting? Did you order the led's from Cutter? How long did they take to come in?


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Thanks for the kind words. This is sort of my third generation light using this similar design, so hopefully it gets a little more refined each time.

Answers to questions in previous posts:
_airman:_ here is a ceiling beamshot comparison of the triple Cree XR-E to the triple Luxeon III at a distance of about 12 feet. It was difficult to hold the two lights and at the same time, take the picture  Obviously, the Cree is the one on the left! If you look closely at the Cree beam, you will notice a square hotspot, tilted a little to the left (because of the way I was holding the light). That is the 4° spot lens.










_[email protected]:_ Yes I probably do loose some light with the frosted lenses, but that is all that Ledil offered in that 9 degree angle lens. In fact, I loose light using optics as opposed to reflectors. I will eventually get around to try some different lenses and reflectors. But I'm fairly satisfied with both the beam and output at this point. I'll let you guys know more after I get a real trail ride on the light in a few days.

_Ladracer:_ building the LED light will certainly cost you more. I spent at least $110 (US) building this light (not including the battery) I really can't give you a direct comparison because you didn't say whether you are planning a MR11 or MR16 and how much you intend to overvolt. But this light will put out about the same lumens as a 12v, 20watt MR11 system, but draw less than half the power. The LED will have a whiter light and probably a better beam pattern as well. I'll try to get a hold of a 20w halogen and make a beam shot comparison. I think I have one lying around somewhere.

_jmitchell13:_ The Crees are P3 bin. Yes, got them from Cutter. It took about two weeks after I ordered before the LEDs were shipped (I assume backordered) and about 10 days once they were shipped to receive them. The stars don't appear to be of the same quality of the Luxeon stars, but that doesn't stop the light from emitting! One of the three emitters has a slight yellowish tint compared to the other three, and does not seem quite as bright.

Thanks for the questions.
- Allen


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## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

achesalot said:


> Thanks for the kind words. This is sort of my third generation light using this similar design, so hopefully it gets a little more refined each time.
> 
> clip...
> 
> ...


Wow!

I'm really impressed by the difference in the beam patterns between the Cree and the luxeon III.

I see there is a group buy for the Cree in the Candlepower Forum  ... Maybe a good opportunity :thumbsup: .

Keep up the good work!

Cheers


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## jmitchell13 (Nov 20, 2005)

Nice beam shots! That shows a huge difference between the 2 setups. What angle optics were used in the lux3 light?

I'm planning on waiting for the Q3 bin leds. They should be ~20% brighter, when they are available.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

airman said:


> Wow!
> 
> I'm really impressed by the difference in the beam patterns between the Cree and the luxeon III.
> 
> ...


Yes. The Cree really puts out some nice white light. My Luxeon IIIs are TVIJ bin and thus have a slight greenish tint. I think the combo of lenses used on this Cree light worked out well, giving a nice big hotspot. The Lux III light has great throw, but needs assistance from another light (My Dual Lux V on the handlebar) to provide the flood fill. That combo works fairly well, but I think the Cree light will proably do well by itself... but I'll still use the Dual Luxeon V on the handlebar.

Yes, there are some group buys on CPF ... I'd like to get some Q2 or Q3 binned Crees (apparently the Q3s have not really hit the street yet, and the Q2s are not much easier to get. Even with the Q2 bin Cree, for instance, my light would have about 70 more lumens of output (nothing to sneeze at!)

BTW. CPF has been down all day today.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

jmitchell13 said:


> Nice beam shots! That shows a huge difference between the 2 setups. What angle optics were used in the lux3 light?
> 
> I'm planning on waiting for the Q3 bin leds. They should be ~20% brighter, when they are available.


Yep, Q3 bin will be awesome!

I used the Ledil lenses (on the Cree): 
1 x 4° Spot
2 x 9° Diffused

*Oops I see you were asking about the Lux III light: *I originally had 3 x IMS20 reflectors. That worked great, but it was a spotlight.
I left one IMS 20 reflector in the middle and put two NX-05 lenses on the outer 2 LEDs... gave a little more flood.


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## Panter (Nov 13, 2006)

Great Job, probably the nicest DIY lamp around!!!
I have some question:
1, Could someone explaine to me the difference between Q2 and Q3 binned leds, also do you know when it will be available?
2, Did you use a single Nflex board to drive all 3 leds? Does the board offers a soft-start option? Is it no problem that you drive it with 750, what I read on the CREE website was 700.
Thanks for the help, again great build!!!


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Panter said:


> Great Job, probably the nicest DIY lamp around!!!
> I have some question:
> 1, Could someone explaine to me the difference between Q2 and Q3 binned leds, also do you know when it will be available?
> 2, Did you use a single Nflex board to drive all 3 leds? Does the board offers a soft-start option? Is it no problem that you drive it with 750, what I read on the CREE website was 700.
> Thanks for the help, again great build!!!


BTW, Thanks!
Both Luxeon and Cree LEDs are graded (like diamonds) into bins of brightness and color. Q2 and Q3 are the brightest of 6 available bins. Q2 is supposed to be available end of November (any day now) Q3 another month or two. Cree binning and labeling pdf.


One nFlex was used to drive all three. No soft start feature, but it can be made to come on at a low level initially. The Cree can actually be driven up to one amp... you just need to make sure there is proper heat sinking and cooling in place. The motion of air does quite well for cooling a bike light. Driving LEDs at a higher current might shorten their life a little (i.e., I might get 20,000 hours of useful light as opposed to 50,000)


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

These two figures, taken from the Cree documentation should help explain binning and output intensity versus current. All of the output ratings from the top binning table (in lumens) are specified at 350ma drive current. Use the values from the upper table against the lower graph chart to interpolate what output value to expect at other drive currents. Note: the scale on the left side of the graph is percent of the value in the upper table, _not lumens._ For example, 350ma is 100%.

















Therefore, if we have a Q3 binned XR-E, on average it will give us about 97 lumens of output at 350ma. If that same Cree was driven at 700ma, the output would be about 165% (using interpolation) of the original value, or 160 lumens. So a bike light with 3, Q3 binned LEDs would have a total output of about 480 lumens. If we are brave and provide adequate cooling, we might choose to run it at 1 Amp giving us a total of 582 lumens!

I have cranked my nFlex up to 1 amp with my current P3 bin LEDs with no problem. So that gives me about 462 lumens if I run at 1 Amp. I doubt I will normally run it that high though.


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## Stuart B (Mar 21, 2005)

achesalot said:


> These two figures, taken from the Cree documentation should help explain binning and output intensity versus current. All of the output ratings from the top binning table (in lumens) are specified at 350ma drive current. Use the values from the upper table against the lower graph chart to interpolate what output value to expect at other drive currents. Note: the scale on the left side of the graph is percent of the value in the upper table, _not lumens._ For example, 350ma is 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice light chap.

Its funny you post an imapge of those graphs. I have just been adding the 1 amp performance into my spreadsheet (before I saw this post) . I have spotted something unusual in the Lumens/watt figures for the 350, 700 and 1000mA currents....any chance you can calculate them independently? I can't see where I have made a mistake. If the data sheet is true AND my calcs are correct, then I think it's quite exciting.

EDIT!!! Ignore that last question...I found my mistake lol.

Just so you know though lol...I though the LED had more lumens/watt at 1 amp than at 0.7. I thought I typed in the 200% of 350mA in correctly, but I mucked up and dragged the cell above down...so I ended up multiplying the 0.7A figure by 1.6 (like the 350 to 700 jump). It suprised me as that would be a major selling point and I hadn't seen that claim anywhere.

Moral of the story always check you calcs hehe

Stu


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## brum (Dec 19, 2004)

Very, very nice light! Impressive.
One question: how did the Ledil optics (21,6x21,6mm) fit into the 1" alu profile (I measured it at 21,0x21,0mm inside)? Did you have to remove 0,3mm per side or did they go in without any strubbles?


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

brum said:


> Very, very nice light! Impressive.
> One question: how did the Ledil optics (21,6x21,6mm) fit into the 1" alu profile (I measured it at 21,0x21,0mm inside)? Did you have to remove 0,3mm per side or did they go in without any strubbles?


Thanks!

The Ledils fit perfectly. I did not have to remove anything. The tricky part was making sure the LEDs were centered properly underneath the lenses and at the same time, the lenses were centered inside the 1" aluminum. You might have thicker aluminum tubing than I have. Mine is 1" x 1/16" thick. The inside measures 22mm making the Ledils nearly a perect fit.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

*FYI. Don't think that Cree LEDs are immune from the lottery!*

I added this close up beamshot (about 2 inches away on a white envelope) to show that the Cree lottery is similar to the Luxeon lottery. From this you can see the the LED on the left is much more yellow tinted and does not have the output of the other two (must have been at the bottom end of the bin). You can also see the square die in the middle LED. This is because of the 4 degree spot lens.

I should add: the light was running on nFlex's lowest power setting to get this shot (otherwise too bright to look at)... so that makes the yellow-looking LED look a little more yellow than under full power.


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## Lumbee1 (Dec 16, 2004)

Awesome job Achesalot!!! I have been waiting for CREE specific reflectors or optics to build my own Tri-Cree. Where did you get the Ledil lenses? How much and what are the different options?


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## Stuart B (Mar 21, 2005)

Lumbee1 said:


> Awesome job Achesalot!!! I have been waiting for CREE specific reflectors or optics to build my own Tri-Cree. Where did you get the Ledil lenses? How much and what are the different options?


Cutter elctronics in Oz have these and other Cree optics. Their international shipping is reasonable too.

Stu


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## Lumbee1 (Dec 16, 2004)

Achesalot, did the solder connections on the Crees not interfere with the optic? It looks like the optic is designed to sit right on top of the Cree. Also, if you were making another one, would you still use the 1 x 4 degree and 2 x 9 degree combination?


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Lumbee1 said:


> Achesalot, did the solder connections on the Crees not interfere with the optic? It looks like the optic is designed to sit right on top of the Cree. Also, if you were making another one, would you still use the 1 x 4 degree and 2 x 9 degree combination?


Yes. The solder connections did interfere. I pressed the lense down on the star as to make an indentation where the solder globs were. I cut away the adhesive backing at those locations and used the Dremel tool to remove enough of the lens base to let it sit flush on the surface of the star.

I'll let you know if I've made the right lens choices after I ride the trails tomorrow night (I usually ride with a group every Tues and Thurs night). It might turn out that 3 x 9 degrees or (1 x 9 degree and 2 x 15 degrees ) works out better, but of course, the ideal combination might also vary for different tastes and depending upon if you are using a helmet or handlebar mount. Since mine is helmet mount, I would like good throw, but with some side fill. Compared to my Luxeon III light, the current Cree+Lens combo gives a much wider beam at 30 feet or so.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Here are more comparison beamshots. These were all taken at a distance of about 25 feet shining on some bushes and a fountain at the front of my house. All were shot at F2.8, 1/4 sec, ISO 400... and are slightly, but not greatly, overexposed.

First up is my Fenix P1 flashlight. This little light measures 2.5" x 0.75" and runs for about 2 hours on a CR123A Lithium battery. It is a very handy light to carry in my camelback for emergencies. I carry its sheath and a velcro strap and can easily fasten it to someone's helmet very quickly. It has gotten a few folks, whose battery-hungry halogens died an early and untimely death, safely out of the woods: 









Next is my Dual Luxeon V bike light. This light rides on my handlebar and provides a nice flood fill laid down in front of my bike. Imagine two DiNotte Ultra 5s and that's what you have here:









The beamshot below is the TriLuxIII that I have been using as a helmet light. It makes a good combo with the DualLuxV, but it is a little too much of a spot light. Still it's a great bike light for fast single track when you really need to look a little farther down the trail:









And finally... the new Cree-ation  The new Triple Cree XR-E (P3 bin) helmet light. It is the subject of this thread... need I say more:









Hope you guys enjoy these!!


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## jeep (Sep 23, 2004)

*Thank you...*

Great job and very interesting write up!

Thanks a lot for all the info you provided.

Cheers,:thumbsup:

J


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## killsoft (Feb 4, 2006)

Fantastic. :thumbsup: 

KS


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## Andino (Oct 27, 2005)

awesome!


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Thanks guys!

I just did a current check with the Triple Cree XR-E light.
I'm running it at 750ma with the nFlex controller and using a 4amp, 14.8v Li-Ion battery pack. Are you ready? Measured between the battery and the light it measured 0.52 Amps compared to the TriLuxIII which was pullling about 0.68 Amps.

This means with the 4 amp battery I should get over 7 hours runtime with this light/battery combo! And it puts out a lot of light.  I _only _got a little over 5 hours runtime with the TriLuxIII.

The voltage at the battery measured 16.25 volts. This gives us a power rating of 16.25 * 0.52 = *8.45 watts.*


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## pagey (Sep 26, 2006)

Achesalot - awsome light.

Just wondering would the 700mA 3021 BuckPuck (from Cutter) work for this setup instead of the nFlex. I'm not overly worried about dimming.

cheers
Pagey


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## brum (Dec 19, 2004)

pagey said:


> Achesalot - awsome light.
> 
> Just wondering would the 700mA 3021 BuckPuck (from Cutter) work for this setup instead of the nFlex. I'm not overly worried about dimming.
> 
> ...


Yes, that should work. Only 50mA less, you won't notice the difference. The Buckpuck is also dimmable, though it's via a external pot. The nFlex (or bFlex) has way more functions (like auto-off, sleep mode, low bat warning (bFlex), and all the different dimming settings), I'll be using a bFlex, with and external pushbutton hanging down the shoulderstraps on my camelbak.


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## rasw01 (Aug 14, 2006)

anyone can answer my silly questions please

I am looking at doing the same set up as Achelot's 3 Cree Led lights but with 700mA 3021 BuckPuck using Li-Polymer Battery 14.8V 1900mAh, and i am only after about 3 hours burn time. Questions:
1. is this battery OK to drive the above set up?
2. is the output going to be the same as Achelot's?
Any clues would be much appreciated

PS: i suppose, it is possible to connect 2 of the Li-Polymer Batteries 14.8V 1900mAh in parallel to make 14.8V and 3800mAh


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## brum (Dec 19, 2004)

rasw01 said:


> anyone can answer my silly questions please
> 
> I am looking at doing the same set up as Achelot's 3 Cree Led lights but with 700mA 3021 BuckPuck using Li-Polymer Battery 14.8V 1900mAh, and i am only after about 3 hours burn time. Questions:
> 1. is this battery OK to drive the above set up?
> ...


 No. In parralel you add up the capacity, in series to add up the voltage. 
I suppose you've got 4x 3,7V 1900mAh Li-poly cells, right? The only option you've got is to make a 14,8V 1900mAh pack. You could wire them 2S2P, but then you'd have a 7,4V 3800mAh pack. In that case a buckpuck wouldn't work, you'd need a step-up (or boost-) driver.

1. Yes, you can make a 10,8V battery, but that's a bit low driving 3 Cree in series. 14,8 should work fine.
2. No, but I doubt you'd notice the difference that 50mA in current makes.

Cree's eat 3,7V (aprox.) and 700mah. That's 2,59W a piece, three making 7,8W. Adding up the efficiency of the driver (about 85%) that makes about 9W. You're battery is able to provide 14,8x1,900Ah=28,1W. So your total runtime would be about 28/9=3 hours.


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## rasw01 (Aug 14, 2006)

Brum, many thanks for replying

1. the battery is pre-made (please see link: http://www.wattsuprc.com.au/product_detail.asp?pid=KX850139A), so is it still ok? i am not so good at electronics
2. yes in parallel, adde up the capacitance, so 2 of the above will make 14.8 V 3800mAh - but that will weight 400gm. I only need abut 3 hours burntime so would one single battety suffice

Many thanks again for any help

PS: Brum - i have read your edit - many thanks


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## brum (Dec 19, 2004)

rasw01 said:


> Brum, many thanks for replying
> 
> 1. the battery is pre-made (please see link: http://www.wattsuprc.com.au/product_detail.asp?pid=KX850139A), so is it still ok? i am not so good at electronics
> 2. yes in parallel, adde up the capacitance, so 2 of the above will make 14.8 V 3800mAh - but that will weight 400gm. I only need abut 3 hours burntime so would one single battety suffice
> ...


If i'm interpreting the desciption of the battery right, it has no low-voltage or other protection circuits inside (it says YOU should check voltage etc), which can be pretty dangerous. If you need 3 hours runtime, I suggest you seek a little more powerfull battery, since you don't have any reserves with a protected li-poly/li-ion battery, once they reach their lowest acceptable voltage they shut off. With a NiMH you can run 'm down a little further. You should check out batteryspace.com and the other bat resellers, they will make you a batpack that matches youre need. I'm not sure the battery in your link is what you seek.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

pagey said:


> Achesalot - awsome light.
> 
> Just wondering would the 700mA 3021 BuckPuck (from Cutter) work for this setup instead of the nFlex. I'm not overly worried about dimming.
> 
> ...


Yes, it will work great. The 3023 (wired version) is a little easier to work with if you are not concerned with dimming.

Forgot to say, "Thanks"


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

rasw01 said:


> Brum, many thanks for replying
> 
> 1. the battery is pre-made (please see link: http://www.wattsuprc.com.au/product_detail.asp?pid=KX850139A), so is it still ok? i am not so good at electronics
> 2. yes in parallel, adde up the capacitance, so 2 of the above will make 14.8 V 3800mAh - but that will weight 400gm. I only need abut 3 hours burntime so would one single battety suffice
> ...


rasw01, the link did not work for me, but the battery you've specified should give you roughly 3 hours runtime. As Brum mentioned, using protected Li-Ion/Li-Poly batteries is preferred over non-protected. The protection circuitry will do 3 things:
keep the battery from draining itself too low, thus ruining the battery
it will not allow too much current draw from the battery which could cause it to overheat/flame-up/explode
it will keep it from overcharging which could cause fire or explosion.
Using the proper charger is also important. If you read up on Li-Ion safety and take all the precautions, you should be alright. Otherwise go with NiMh packs.

Edit: Many of the Li-Poly packs I see being sold don't include protection circuity. I must admit that I've not used a Li-Poly pack for bike lighting, so I'm less familiar with them. I've only used Li-Ion packs that contain protection circuitry, but from what I can tell they have similar properties and therefore similar precautions should be taken.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

I just got back from my first trail ride with the new light.  I'm very pleased with the results. We had 10 riders tonight (most with HID lights ) and it was a nice 65 F temperature outside at 6pm (I live in NW Florida). We rode for a little over an hour. 

The new Cree light was on my helmet, and I had my dual Luxeon V on the handlebar. I rode without the handlebar light at times just to check the Cree light out. Actually, I was quite comfortable riding with it alone, but eventually I turned the handlebar light back on to add some flood fill on the ground closer to my bike. Although the dual Luxeon V is a nice light, the Cree really overpowered it. I guess I will be ordering a couple of XR-E LEDs (Q2 bin) to replace the Luxeon V LEDs.  That light already has a 700 ma BuckPuck driver that is dimmable, so it's a drop in replacement except that I will have to order lenses also. I will probably try the Ledil 15 degree lenses, since that light is for flood fill.

The Cree light did not get warm during the ride (avg speed about 10 mph). I reached up now and then to check on it. It might have been a few degrees above the ambient air temp. When we stopped, I put it in low power mode. I think the lens combination is perfect for a helmet light. It has good throw, but the beam is wide enough not to feel like I'm riding in a light tunnel. Some folks might prefer more flood... I guess it's a matter of preference.

Well that's the first ride report. No problems whatsoever, and I would have to say that all of the Cree hype has lived up to its word. :thumbsup:


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

Nice Job Achesalot.


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

Congratulations on your build *Allen*, it's looking great! :thumbsup:

I like your fabrication work, and those Ledil optics look like a perfect fit in your housing too. It would be interesting to see a few beam shots of a triple Cree XR-E light with a few different reflectors or optics. Some of the results achieved from the CPF boys with a single emitter and a well positioned reflector look very promising for bike use. 

Thanks for the beam shots!

*Airman* - How big is the heat sink that you have your emitter(s) mounted to? My triple 3 Watt light doesn't get anywhere near that warm after running for 5 minutes or so with no air circulation, and they are mounted on a reasonably small heat sink.

I'm assuming that you are measuring the temperature of the heat sink itself too? Those temperatures are definitely a bit high (the emitters junction temperature will be higher again), but they aren't too bad. This is from a pretty old Lumileds reliability datasheet I have, but it will give you a rough idea:

"LED's experience a gradual permanent reduction in light output during operation. This phenomenon is called light output degradation, or lumen maintenance, and can either be caused by a reduction in the light generating efficiency of the LED die or a reduction in the light transmission of the optical path within the LED package. In general, the change in lumen maintenance is higher during the first few hundred hours of operation and then slows down afterwards. In most cases, the lumen maintenance of the LED die varies approximately as the logarithm of time. In general, the LUXEON is expected to provide an average of 70% lumen maintenance after 50,000 hours provided that the LUXEON is driven at a dc drive current of 350mA for LUXEON I and 700mA for LUXEON III and the junction temperature is maintained at or below 90°C. _In addition, LUXEON III is expected to provide an average of 50% lumen maintenance after 20,000 hours when driven at 1000mA and the junction temperature is maintained at or below 90°C_."

That's not too bad all things considered. It might be worth having a read through some of the current Lumiled datasheets, particularly those related to lumen maintenance and thermal considerations. Remember that there is a fair difference between junction temperature and heat sink temperature.

As I mentioned in my response to Allen, it seems that the Cree XR-E will suit riders quite well. I have seen some fantastic beam shots of single emitters with custom made and modified reflectors. There are a number of companies that are getting close to releasing optics for the Cree devices too. It won't be far off until we see a lot more product availability. What bin K2 devices did you end up with? In terms of lumen / watt efficiency multiple lower bins seem to be the way to go. The higher bins are very power hungry, and their thermal efficiency isn't overly impressive either.

*James* - I can only assume that the wider Ledil optics are frosted to blend the hotspot and outer flood of the beam a little. I have a few wider optics that aren't frosted, but instead use Fresnel grooves. They produce a huge wall of light, and practically have no hotspot at all. I guess they may be a little more efficient.

Cheers, Dave.


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## ICanDigIt (Jun 23, 2004)

Awsome work and congrats on the successful test ride!

More light, better beam and less power consumption...Christmas came early!


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## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

Low_Rider said:


> Congratulations on your build *Allen*, it's looking great! :thumbsup:
> 
> clip...
> 
> ...


Dave:

There's a long boring story here... But I'll try to keep it short... 

I built my first LED project with luxeon III stars, 3 in series driven at 1 amp. The stars were of unknown bin #s and obviously different colours/brightness. I built the package on a piece of 1/4 inch aluminum, 3" x 1" and planned to put it inside a hammond enclosure with the electronics. When I finished the project and powered it up, with no airflow it got really hot after 5 minutes, so I shut it down, dismantled it, put some thermisters on the stars and ran an open air test. They ran up to 75 deg C (if I remember  ) with no air flow. That was way hotter than I wanted as the electronics were mounted in the same box. I ran tests at 750ma, 500ma and 350ma. The temperature rise was way lower at the 350ma, but the light level wasn't what I wanted  . So I focused on the K2 emitter (U bin) and a better heat sink design. The K2 project worked much better - the enclosure is billet aluminum with heat sink fins on top 1" x 2 1/4" and 3/8" high. I can run this at 1 amp, but it needs some airflow - otherwise it will get too hot to hold  . Now that's not really a problem since the LEDs are built to run way hotter, but some electronics don't like to go above 85. I am mounting the electronics separately as they will survive much longer in their own enclosure. I've repaired too many of my friends' digital light heads due to fried electronics... My goal is to keep the LEDs as cool as practical to maintain light output. The K2 puts out tons of light in a tight spot - which is what I wanted - to supplement my bar mounted HID flood.

My kids borrowed my digital camera, but I will post some photos another time - a picture is worth a thousand words...

I will keep watching the Cree developments and probably try something when they are more readily available and I know what optics work best.

If you want any other info, let me know.

Cheers


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## Gilbo (Nov 10, 2006)

Achesalot, did you not use any plexi for protection or is this not neccesary? I've seen that your lenses are a bit deeper than the tube, Why did you do that? Is it a problem to put the lenses flush with the front of the tube when not using plexicovering?


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Gilbo said:


> Achesalot, did you not use any plexi for protection or is this not neccesary? I've seen that your lenses are a bit deeper than the tube, Why did you do that? Is it a problem to put the lenses flush with the front of the tube when not using plexicovering?


Plexiglass shouldn't be necessary with the Ledils. The lenses are about 1/16" back from the front and I intend to make a seal (from silicone caulk perhaps?) around the outer edge. I just have to figure out a way to do it without making it look messy.

The other option, as you mentioned, is to cover the entire front with plexiglass, but each layer of glass/plastic that the light must go through will reduce the output by some amount depending upon the material.

In any case, I do need to do something make the front waterproof, in case I should get caught in a sprinkle.


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## robbbby (Oct 1, 2006)

Thanks for the great writeup, it's always nice to see results without having to do the experimentation yourself.

I just had one question though. What would be the ideal battery setup to run 3 XR-Es in series?

Would this work? It comes in various Ah ratings, I figure 4Ah would be more than plenty.
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2923

Or is there a better style/type of battery for this sort of application.

Again, thank you very much for sharing all the information you have gathered.


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## Gilbo (Nov 10, 2006)

Maybe it is possible to put in a small O ring seal between the housing and the ledil? Or a piece of race bike inner tube? When you use silicone it will be more difficult to take the light apart!


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## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

Low_Rider said:


> Congratulations on your build *Allen*, it's looking great! :thumbsup:
> 
> clip...
> 
> Cheers, Dave.


Here's a photo of my K2 triple. Still some details to finish...

It's intended to be waterproof  .

Cheers


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

*Allen* - As Gilbo mentions, I wonder if you can stretch a small O-Ring around the square face of each of the optics? You could also creatively put a bead of silicone around the inside of each of the square housings until it's a light press fit? :skep:

*Robbby* - That battery looks alright to me. If you're using a buck regulator, you can roughly work out your minimum battery voltage requirements by adding up the forward voltage of the LED's, and adding a couple of volts to cover the overhead needed by the regulator that you choose. You can look at the data sheet of your driver for specifics. 

I am personally not a fan of battery space, particularly with their Lithium Ion packs.

*Airman* - Looking good! It reminds me of early Nite Rider systems a little. I'm sure your light will be a hell of a lot more reliable though! 

Your original triple 3 watt heat sink design sounds a little on the small side, but your K2 setup looks alright to me if you're driving them at one amp. With any heat sink this size you're going to have to rely on air flow to dissipate the heat, and you can't get around that without making some huge monster with heaps of surface area.

Dave.


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## robbbby (Oct 1, 2006)

Low_Rider said:


> I am personally not a fan of battery space, particularly with their Lithium Ion packs.


Who do you recommend for buying batteries? I was just browsing their site because they seem to be the place that everyone buys from.


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

Sorry Allen this is starting to head off topic a little too far. Maybe new non Cree discussions could be started in a new thread please folks.

*robbbby*, I'm not sure who is a good alternative around your way, and it would be a little silly for you to buy packs from Australia&#8230; All I know is that battery space leaves a lot to be desired. Have a bit of a search around here on MTBR, and check out any local RC forums that are a bit closer to home. Those guys go through cells like water and would know where the good stuff is. Just make sure you buy a pack with decent cell protection circuitry, and a good quality charger.

Dave.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

robbbby said:


> Thanks for the great writeup, it's always nice to see results without having to do the experimentation yourself.
> 
> I just had one question though. What would be the ideal battery setup to run 3 XR-Es in series?
> 
> ...


That battery would kick butt! I get about 7 hours from my 4Amp pack.

I have not had any bad experiences with batteryspace.com... I've placed exactly two orders with them. Maybe some people have had problems, and the problem is apparently worsened by the fact that the folks at batteryspace don't speak English very well. I can imagine cases where people order protected Li-Ion packs for use with halogen lights and have problems with the protection circuitry kicking in because of the high start-up load. Then these folks complain to batteryspace (or whoever) about how crappy their product is. Bottom line... if you are going to use Li-Ion, you need to educate yourself before you buy!

Other posters: if you have not directly had a bad experience with batteryspace, please don't say bad things based on rumors or the fact that a few people might have had a bad experience. (i.e., don't say things like "I heard they really suck." That can spread like wildfire on a forum like this... just from one or two folks having a bad experience. Remember. people generally tend to post and complain when problems arise, not when things go well.

On the other hand, if you know of other good sources for similar products, you might want to offer up an alternative solution. For example, you can try all-battery.com who offer similar products. I have also ordered a few things from them with no problems.

OK. Back to this thread (and let's try to stay on it):  
Thanks for the ideas on sealing the Ledil lenses in the light body. Yes, I think a gasket or rubber o-ring would be ideal, although it would have to be very thin... not much space to work with. I might be able to cut a small groove around the lens holder body that would help keep the o-ring in place. Hopefully, I can work something like that out. I'm out-of-town for a week (at a conference) and will continue to work the issue when I get back. Thanks for the advice and kind words guys.

From the Land of Micky Mouse  ,
- Allen


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## Panter (Nov 13, 2006)

Wow, such a low power conumption is amazing!!!
Seeing those results, I wonder if it is possible to retrofit my Niterider MiNewt light with Cree leds. Are the two leds (I think Niterider uses Luxeon K2), interchangeable concerning size, I mean would the Cree fit into the reflector?
I was also wondering if you can pick batterys with almost any voltage when using Nflex? Maybe I have misunderstood, but the technical sheet implied to me that it will work the same with a wide array of voltages? Or have I misunderstood it?
And a final question, as you built both Cree and Luxeon lamps, does both require the same amount of mA? You have written that you use 750mA for the Cree, is it the same?
Many Thanks


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## Stuart B (Mar 21, 2005)

Panter said:


> Wow, such a low power conumption is amazing!!!
> Seeing those results, I wonder if it is possible to retrofit my Niterider MiNewt light with Cree leds. Are the two leds (I think Niterider uses Luxeon K2), interchangeable concerning size, I mean would the Cree fit into the reflector?
> I was also wondering if you can pick batterys with almost any voltage when using Nflex? Maybe I have misunderstood, but the technical sheet implied to me that it will work the same with a wide array of voltages? Or have I misunderstood it?
> And a final question, as you built both Cree and Luxeon lamps, does both require the same amount of mA? You have written that you use 750mA for the Cree, is it the same?
> Many Thanks


Its the first time I have looked at this controller, but it says it needs an input at least 1.5V over the output voltage to work. It won't boost the voltage (Drivers taht do this are called boost controllers), this is a buck controller....it reduces the voltage.

Both LEDs can be run at 750mA, you can run the CREES up to an 1Amp, some K2s can too depending on the exact specification.

I am not sure how interchangable the LEDs are, My CREEs haven't turned up yet. Looking at pics they are different though.

Stu


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

*Again folks, it would be great if we could focus on keeping this thread for discussing Allen's light please, it doesn't hurt to make a new thread!*



Panter said:


> I wonder if it is possible to retrofit my Nite Rider MiNewt light with Cree LED's.


It would be a difficult modification, but not impossible. It's hard to know exactly what you would be up for without pulling one apart myself. Basically it would come down to how the current emitter is mounted. I suspect the current emitter would be surface mounted rather then mounted on a conventional "star" MCPCB, which is great for the manufacturer, but not real good for us as the Cree XR-E is substantially different in terms of its physical package. Unless the current emitter was mounted on a star I wouldn't even bother trying.



> I mean would the Cree fit into the reflector?


It probably won't as the two emitters are quite different in physical size, although you could probably drill it out a little. However the chances are that you would be battling to focus the light without moving the reflector about a little, and again I don't know if you would have any room in the housing to do so. I'm not sure if any currently available reflectors could fit the housing or not. Again it's hard to tell without pulling one apart and measuring things up.

Finally, all of the control electronics appear to be integrated in the battery pack, so retrofitting the light with another driver and keeping the original battery pack would be impossible without hacking it up. Chances are that the standard driver used by Nite Rider could probably run the Cree alright though.

Basically to sum things up unless you pulled the light head apart and found that the emitter was mounted on a star, and you were prepared to do some serious modifications with no guarantee, you would be much better off spending the money on building up your own light from scratch.

Dave.


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## Gilbo (Nov 10, 2006)

achesalot said:


> Yes. The solder connections did interfere. I pressed the lense down on the star as to make an indentation where the solder globs were. I cut away the adhesive backing at those locations and used the Dremel tool to remove enough of the lens base to let it sit flush on the surface of the star.


Hi achesalot, Do you have pictures of the mod's you have made to the lenses? It seems as iff I will have tot take off al lot at the solder points. Did you remove the lens from it's body when you used your dremel? And if not, what did you do to avoid the inside getting dirty?
And 1 last question, have you only used the adhesive tape on the lens to mount it?
My housing is build and today I got my artic silver adhesive and 2 extra lenses, just waiting for my buckpuck now (they send a powerpuck by mistake wich is much to big for my housing.)
I hope I will get a new digital camera under the christmastree so I can post some photo's of my creation, it looks really Dinotte:thumbsup:


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Gilbo said:


> Hi achesalot, Do you have pictures of the mod's you have made to the lenses? It seems as iff I will have tot take off al lot at the solder points. Did you remove the lens from it's body when you used your dremel? And if not, what did you do to avoid the inside getting dirty?
> And 1 last question, have you only used the adhesive tape on the lens to mount it?
> My housing is build and today I got my artic silver adhesive and 2 extra lenses, just waiting for my buckpuck now (they send a powerpuck by mistake wich is much to big for my housing.)
> I hope I will get a new digital camera under the christmastree so I can post some photo's of my creation, it looks really Dinotte:thumbsup:


Sorry. I dont have any photos of the mod. I didn't modify the lens, just the base of the holder. I used the 1/8" round, ball-looking dremel cutter. How much you take off depends on how big your wire and solder glob is. I tried to keep mine as flat as possible, but still had to take out an area about 1/16" deep and 3/16" round. I blew out the lens with air afterwards to remove any particles. (I left the lens in the holder during the operation, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to remove it in case the dremel slips). And yes, I only used the adhesive tape to fasten the lens. Seems to hold pretty well.

It seems the Ledil lens holders were really designed to go over a Cree emitter by itself. The holder has cut-outs at the top and bottom where the emitter has its solder points... of course that doesn't help much in the case of the star whose solder points are in different locations. It's not a big deal to make the mods however. If you wanted you could drill a small hole at the top and bottom side of the star, just adjacent to the emitter, and solder directly to the emitter's connectors. But that sort of defeats the purpose of using the star, which is easier to solder to... but it would avoid the lens holder mod. On the other hand if your drill slips you might damage the emitter or its lens.:eekster:

I'll try to take a lens off and take some photos later to better illustrate this.

Edit: Gilbo, I took my light apart just for you! No prob really.... two screws.

Took one photo of the top of the star with solder connection and another of the modification that was necessary to the base of the Ledil lens holder.

















Hope this helps.
- Allen


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## Gilbo (Nov 10, 2006)

Thanks Allen, 
Yesterday i bought some multi core wire in stead of the full core wire I had so my solder points wil not be so high. I've take the lenses from is't holder to work them with my chainsaw 
(I will make some pictures with my friends camera)
When the stars get glued on the heatsink, do you have to put on a large amount of thermal adhesive or just a thin layer?
I hope to have my light finished next week and then I'll start my own thread, until then, here is a sneak preview


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

Nice lathe work, as you say it’s very DiNotte like! :thumbsup:

If you are using Arctic Alumina or similar thermal glue, then you will want a covering as thin and even as possible. The job of thermal interface material like this is to fill the microscopic gaps and inconsistencies between the two parts you are joining. If you go too thick it will only make things worse.

Keep us posted!

Dave.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Gilbo said:


> Thanks Allen,
> Yesterday i bought some multi core wire in stead of the full core wire I had so my solder points wil not be so high. I've take the lenses from is't holder to work them with my chainsaw
> (I will make some pictures with my friends camera)
> When the stars get glued on the heatsink, do you have to put on a large amount of thermal adhesive or just a thin layer?
> I hope to have my light finished next week and then I'll start my own thread, until then, here is a sneak preview


Dave always beats me to the answers....  Yes, thin layer is best... doesn't take much. I used some small (24 gauge ?) stranded wire on this project. It is a little smaller than the solid core wire I've used previously. I was a little worried about it handling the current, but there doesn't seem to be any problem so far. With a short length of wire, you can usually get away with a pretty light guage.

Your light does look very DiNotte! Nice work. Is that square opening in the end for a Ledil lens?


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## Gilbo (Nov 10, 2006)

achesalot said:


> Is that square opening in the end for a Ledil lens?


Yes, the lens fits perfect i have made a square hole of 21.8mm, (not easy, drilling a square hole )
here is a picture with a lens put in: 

I cant wait to set the thing on fire:madmax: but i have to wait for my buckpuck. I could use the powerpuck I have but have to put it outside my light is it a problem when I put the powerpuck about 50 cm from the led's?


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

> Dave always beats me to the answers....


Sorry I can't help it! 



> I have made a square hole of 21.8mm, (not easy, drilling a square hole)


I can only imagine! Did you do that on the lathe, or a CNC router or similar machine?



> Is it a problem when I put the power puck about 50 cm from the LED's?


From my understanding it should be fine for testing purposes, I assume the limit is only placed to limit undue electrical noise being emitted. This would be more of an issue for microcontroller driven applications where timing may become an issue too.


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## Gilbo (Nov 10, 2006)

Low_Rider said:


> I can only imagine! Did you do that on the lathe, or a CNC router or similar machine?
> 
> 
> > The hole was made with a cnc Milling Machine. Big advantage when you have this at work I fact I' ve made two housings at once. :thumbsup:


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## darelldd (Oct 2, 2006)

*uControllers*

Howdy folks!

Excellent stuff here! I don't want to derail this thread, so I'll start a new one and point to it from here after I post this and create the new one. Please bear with me for just a moment of OT because I think we can all benefit. To make a long story short, I'm an Admin on CPF, and I met George (TaskLED) quite some time back when we were both working on automotive lighting projects. We've formed a great relationship since then, and work on some pretty neat projects together (well, George does the work - I basically dream things up and screw around). Much of the User Interface started in my head, and ended up in products like the uFlex, the nFlex and the new bFlex that now incorporates all the great UI stuff that we've learned along the way. And as luck would hav it, I'm a bike rider too, and just recently was talking to George about adding one more chunk of UI specifically for bicycle lights.

So now is your chance!

Link to UI thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=2538933#post2538933


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

*Triple Cree Update*

Update: Cree has recently announced that it's within spec to run the XR-E LEDs at 1A. Fortunately, my light has the nFlex driver that allows the drive current to be easily adjusted (bFlex as well). The light really does kick butt at one amp, only running slightly warmer. Don't tell Cree, but I was actually running it at 1A before they said it was OK 

In the beamshot photos I posted earlier in this thread, the Triple Luxeon III was running at 1000mA and the Triple Cree at 750mA. I don't have any comparison beamshot of the Triple Cree running at 1A, but I'll try to make one soon (probably won't be able to tell much difference in a photo). Also, I still want to make some comparison shots between the Triple Cree and some L&M HIDs used by fellow riders.

Hopefully, next week I'll be posting some comparison shots between the Triple Cree and a Triple SSC P4 (U-bin). That will be the end of my older Triple Luxeon III, as I will be popping off the Luxeon IIIs and replacing them with the Seoul P4s. I took a ride with the Triple LuxIII light the other night and was just blown away how dim it seemed compared to the Cree light... so I'm getting over any sentimental feelings about scrapping the LuxIII LEDs in favor of the Seoul P4s.

Happy Nightriding!


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## darelldd (Oct 2, 2006)

achesalot said:


> Update: Cree has recently announced that it's within spec to run the XR-E LEDs at 1A. Fortunately, my light has the nFlex driver that allows the drive current to be easily adjusted (bFlex as well).


Not much of a surprise that Cree finally came out and made it official. How else were they going to completely stomp Lumileds?  Nice to be able to set bFlex to use the whole 1A, but keep it dialed down for efficiency most of the time.

So I have to know: What's your top secret location for buying SSC and Cree products for super-duper cheap (big, hopeful assumption)?


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## Tinier (Apr 13, 2006)

Airman, that's a very neat and clean looking light!



airman said:


> Here's a photo of my K2 triple. Still some details to finish...
> 
> It's intended to be waterproof  .
> 
> Cheers


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

darelldd said:


> Not much of a surprise that Cree finally came out and made it official. How else were they going to completely stomp Lumileds?  Nice to be able to set bFlex to use the whole 1A, but keep it dialed down for efficiency most of the time.
> 
> So I have to know: What's your top secret location for buying SSC and Cree products for super-duper cheap (big, hopeful assumption)?


Darrell. Thanks for working with George on the bike specific bFlex. That will be my next driver/controller. Yes, it's nice to have the options and flexibility of those drivers.

I don't have any secret locations/sources; same as everybody else. Group buys on CPF, some things from cutter.com/au, sandwich shoppe, etc. Someone on CPF did point out this link to DealExtreme offering XR-E P4 Cree stars for $6.75, then it went up to $7.25, but shipped free (BIN XR7090WT-U1-WD-P4-0-0001).


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

achesalot said:


> These two figures, taken from the Cree documentation should help explain binning and output intensity versus current. All of the output ratings from the top binning table (in lumens) are specified at 350ma drive current. Use the values from the upper table against the lower graph chart to interpolate what output value to expect at other drive currents. Note: the scale on the left side of the graph is percent of the value in the upper table, _not lumens._ For example, 350ma is 100%.


Note: In addition to Cree raising the upper drive limit for the XR-E to 1A, *they have also revised the Intensity/Current chart in the XR-E documentation shown below:* You can make comparisons to the older chart shown above.










*Note that the new chart reflects the XR-E supplying about a 220% Intensity increase when driven @ 1A. *I'm not sure if this is supposed to apply to all XR-Es made after a certain date or if they are deciding that all XR-Es are really 220% brighter when driven at 1A. Hmmm... let me recalculate my P3-binned Triple Cree light output using this new chart.

Avg lumen output of P3-bin: 77 lm
P3-bin XR-E driven at 1A: 77 * 2.2 = 169.4 lm
*Triple Cree XR-E light @1A: = 3 * 169.4 = 508.2 lm!* (Of course the lenses rob about 10% of the output also).

Wow! My light just got a lot brighter, just from an updated chart! 

Really, though, the light is quite bright when driven @ 1A. I certainly don't feel any HID envy with the light running this bright. Of course, the LEDs will only maintain this output if we can keep them cool. Remember, the output ratings that Cree specifies are for an LED with a junction temperature of 25C (77F). As the junction temp rises, the output of the LED decreases. The chart below from Cree's documentation shows this:










This is just something to remember if you are considering driving your XR-Es at 1A. It might turn out that at 1A the LED's junction temp rises so that you actually get less output than at 700ma, not to mention reducing the life of your LEDs! That's why Dave (Low_Rider) is always harping about thermal management. If you're building a light similar to mine, and you want to drive it a 1A, you might consider adding additional heatsink fins on top, ala my original TriLuxIII. I might be adding them back to this light as well... but generally riding in quite cool weather and the motion of air across the light keeps it cold.

Stay cool...
- Allen


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## darelldd (Oct 2, 2006)

achesalot said:


> Darrell. Thanks for working with George on the bike specific bFlex. That will be my next driver/controller. Yes, it's nice to have the options and flexibility of those drivers.


Well, as usual, these things start off for selfish reasons. I wanted a good Bicycle UI, so this was the best way to get it. You guys get to come along on the virtual ride with me.  I have a lot of fun working with George, and we both always end up learning something during the process. Man, if we weren't really good friends we'd probably have to kill each other during these UI sessions though.



> Someone on CPF did point out this link to DealExtreme offering XR-E P4 Cree stars for $6.75, then it went up to $7.25, but shipped free (BIN XR7090WT-U1-WD-P4-0-0001).


Ah. Hadn't seen that one. Seems like a heck of a deal for small quantities. I'll have to go dig up my BIN decoder and figure out what that means. Folks are all talking about "U bin" now, and I can't tell off hand how this one relates.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

darelldd said:


> Ah. Hadn't seen that one. Seems like a heck of a deal for small quantities. I'll have to go dig up my BIN decoder and figure out what that means. Folks are all talking about "U bin" now, and I can't tell off hand how this one relates.


Darell.
I think when you hear folks talking U-bin, they are talking about the Seoul Semiconductor P4 emitter, not to be confused with the Cree XR-E P3-bin, P4-bin, and soon to come, Q2-bin and hopefully someday, Q3-bin.

I know it's confusing since Seoul named their emitter the "P4" which was on of the bins for the Cree XR-E emitter. BTW, both emitters are actually based on the same die. Just doped and packaged differently.


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## darelldd (Oct 2, 2006)

Yup, you got me. Thanks for the gentle boot to the head. I knew from the beginning that this whole P4 thing was going to confuse the heck out of me. And I was right! I actually got it straight in my head there a few weeks back, and then promptly lost it, apparently. 

Yeah, I knew early on that SSC was using the Cree die, and repackaging it. Getting a few more lumens out of the same die as well, happily.

I also know of one product that already sports the Q2 :shhh:
Yup, these are exciting times!


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## darelldd (Oct 2, 2006)

For what it is worth, the DealExtreme site leaves me feeling like I need to wash my hands after the visit. They have so much "infringement" stuff on there, that it pretty much ticks me off. Great deals... but at what cost, ha know?

You've seen the Surefire U2 direct ripoff? Complete with Surefire logo? Man.


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## brum (Dec 19, 2004)

darelldd said:


> For what it is worth, the DealExtreme site leaves me feeling like I need to wash my hands after the visit. They have so much "infringement" stuff on there, that it pretty much ticks me off. Great deals... but at what cost, ha know?
> 
> You've seen the Surefire U2 direct ripoff? Complete with Surefire logo? Man.


They removed that.


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## darelldd (Oct 2, 2006)

brum said:


> They removed that.


Ah. I see they still have the light, but have removed the Surefire etching. There's a little step in the right direction at least.


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## chrism (Jan 27, 2004)

darelldd said:


> I also know of one product that already sports the Q2 :shhh:
> Yup, these are exciting times!


Please, please PM me! Speculation has been rife since it was discovered that Q2 bins did exist (and purportedly even Q3s), but simply weren't being released for public consumption, due either to poor yields or somebody snapping up loads of them.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

darelldd said:


> I also know of one product that already sports the Q2 :shhh:
> Yup, these are exciting times!


You really shouldn't tease us like that 
Any hints?


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## darelldd (Oct 2, 2006)

Ah hell. Must have been the beer talking. Now I'm gonna come off looking like some goober pretending to know stuff. I shouldn't have blabbed. The product is not yet available, and we'll just leave it there.

Just know that there have been Q2's produced. But VERY few met the brightness criteria. And as far as I know, they have never been "for sale." It won't be long before Q2's are looking like the low-dome Luxeon Q-brightness emitters that we all started with. Hang tight.

The rest of this year is shaping up to be an orgy of high-power LEDs.

Chism (and anybody else) I have PM turned off so can't send or recieve them. I really don't like PM! You can email me at any time through my profile.


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## [email protected] (Jan 4, 2004)

darelldd said:


> The rest of this year is shaping up to be an orgy of high-power LEDs.


Boy, you can say that again!


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## Zero_Enigma (Dec 14, 2006)

airman said:


> Here's a photo of my K2 triple. Still some details to finish...
> 
> It's intended to be waterproof  .
> 
> Cheers


DAAAAAMMMMNNNNN that is a sweet looking light. Do you have a full parts list? I'm thinking of building a double or triple for my night rides for the bars and a single tight spot on the helmet run off 4xAA's.

Do you have a full step by step hardware building and step by step detailed electronic build photos? I feel I can pull off the housing myself but electronics is not my forte and I have a hard time understanding that stuff. If you can work out a parts/kit list I'd love to get one and build a double headlamp.

Zero_Enigma


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## darelldd (Oct 2, 2006)

The electonics are easy. You just buy the circuit board built up and programmed.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Zero_Enigma said:


> DAAAAAMMMMNNNNN that is a sweet looking light. Do you have a full parts list? I'm thinking of building a double or triple for my night rides for the bars and a single tight spot on the helmet run off 4xAA's.
> 
> Do you have a full step by step hardware building and step by step detailed electronic build photos? I feel I can pull off the housing myself but electronics is not my forte and I have a hard time understanding that stuff. If you can work out a parts/kit list I'd love to get one and build a double headlamp.
> 
> Zero_Enigma


I just sent you some info per your request from the DIY website.
Lots of great advice from folks right here as well.
- Good luck and welcome to MTBR forums.
- Allen


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

*I finally took the leap....*

*achesalot,* I am holding you responsible for this indulge into the LED world. Thanks much for the inspiration! I have been wanting to order some Cree XR-E's since Christmas but have been scared away because of the long lead times and bins that don't seem to exist. Anyway, after seeing the "2 up" version that *snowman_fs* modeled I decided it was time to start playing. I built up my housing this weekend. Put a little "visor" on the top to set it apart.

*2 UP*









I happened to ask an electrical engineer friend if he would happen to have any high powered LED's that I could play around with, so he gave me a couple of Lumiled V mounted on stars.

*Lumiled V's*









So this is where I really need some help. Are these worth playing around with? What driver and optics would be recommended for these LED's. Anyone have any history or suggestions?


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

scar said:


> *achesalot,* I am holding you responsible for this indulge into the LED world. Thanks much for the inspiration! I have been wanting to order some Cree XR-E's since Christmas but have been scared away because of the long lead times and bins that don't seem to exist. Anyway, after seeing the "2 up" version that *snowman_fs* modeled I decided it was time to start playing. I built up my housing this weekend. Put a little "visor" on the top to set it apart.
> 
> I happened to ask an electrical engineer friend if he would happen to have any high powered LED's that I could play around with, so he gave me a couple of Lumiled V mounted on stars.
> 
> So this is where I really need some help. Are these worth playing around with? What driver and optics would be recommended for these LED's. Anyone have any history or suggestions?


Hey Scar, nice visor look! ... and guilty as charged 
First of all here's a link to my Dual Lux V light, which might be of some help.
The Lux V is designed to run at 700mA and has a Vf of about 6.8 volts. So you could drive two with a bFlex, nFlex or a 700mA 3021 BuckPuck.. and you'll need at least a 14.4v battery.

Using IMS20 reflectors you'll get a fairly floody type of light. That's what I use on my handlebars. To get more throw you'll need either larger diameter reflectors (which won't fit int that enclosure) or go with some optics made for the LuxV.


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## p97z (Dec 19, 2006)

Looks nice!

On a Lux V, a Carclo 6deg gives and awesome flood. It may leave a donut hole so you could use a reflector on one side and Carclo 6 on the other.

Achesalot, could he use 4, 14500 batteries or would it draw to much current?


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

*achesalot *
I have a few more questions for you if you don't mind? I have been looking over your Dual Luxeon V light and was wondering why you used reflectors on this light and are now using optics on your Triple Cree? I was given some custom reflectors along with the Luxeon V stars. The reflectors were designed to give a centralized focal length of 4 inches. I expect it to be pretty spotty, but that is what I am looking for. The other interesting thing about these reflectors is they are taller than the IMS reflectors. IMS reflectors are .725" tall and these are 1". I have no clue what the difference will do. I also have some that are nickel-plated and some that are silver-plated. Should be interesting to see if there is a difference. I understand that these are not Crees but the price was right, FREE! Looking to invest in a Bflex driver and already have a 14.4v NiMH battery. Going to have to make a new front housing section this weekend to incorporate the length of the custom reflectors. Here are some pics of the reflectors.

*Custom Molded Reflectors*









*Side shot*









*Double shot*


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

scar said:


> *achesalot *
> I have a few more questions for you if you don't mind? I have been looking over your Dual Luxeon V light and was wondering why you used reflectors on this light and are now using optics on your Triple Cree?


Back when I built that light, I got most of my info from CPF, and the word there was that reflectors are more efficient (and maybe they still are, especially if your looking for throw). But the short answer is, "The IMS 20 reflectors gave me the flood beam I was looking for on a handlebar light to complement my more spotty helmet light." The general answer is: "try different reflectors/optics until you find what you're satisfied with." 


scar said:


> I was given some custom reflectors along with the Luxeon V stars. The reflectors were designed to give a centralized focal length of 4 inches. I expect it to be pretty spotty, but that is what I am looking for. The other interesting thing about these reflectors is they are taller than the IMS reflectors. IMS reflectors are .725" tall and these are 1". I have no clue what the difference will do. I also have some that are nickel-plated and some that are silver-plated. Should be interesting to see if there is a difference. I understand that these are not Crees but the price was right, FREE! Looking to invest in a Bflex driver and already have a 14.4v NiMH battery. Going to have to make a new front housing section this weekend to incorporate the length of the custom reflectors. Here are some pics of the reflectors.


I've never seen those reflectors. Do you know what kind they are? It's certainly hard to beat free! The Lux V will put out about 120 lumens while drawing about 5 watts. The Cree XR-E or Seoul P4 put out almost twice that at 3 watts. 
Let us know how those reflectors work out with the Lux V... good luck.


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

The reflectors were designed by an in house electrical engineer, molded in our model shop, and then sent out for plating. These were used for prototyping the lighting for a high-speed camera. The Luxeon V's are only being pulsed for a millisecond in our application.


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## cookiedough (Nov 14, 2006)

That's a pretty sexy reflector! It would make it easier to get the LED at the focal point of the parabola doing it 90 degrees to direction of light throw. That gives me some ideas, maybe a triple cree using that thought...hmmm...

any possibility of sharing an iges file? or maybe the mathematical definition of the parabola?


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## darelldd (Oct 2, 2006)

achesalot said:


> Back when I built that light, I got most of my info from CPF, and the word there was that reflectors are more efficient (and maybe they still are, especially if your looking for throw).


This was back when optics were pretty new. Today, from what I understand, optics can (I say can since they obviously need to be designed correctly and made of the best material) be more efficient than reflectors. If you want bang for your buck, then the plastic reflectors are hard to beat. And then there's beam quality... The most efficient optics are going to project an image of your die - which may not be desirable!


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

cookiedough, sorry I can't share cause I don't own the design.


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## cookiedough (Nov 14, 2006)

Not a problem, but thanks for the answer - that pic started me looking through my physics book from college in the optical section, to look for some of the parabola calcs. Pretty neat stuff, but, wow, it's be awhile since I was in that book


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## aridese (Aug 12, 2006)

If you're using one nFlex controller for three lights at 750mA, doesn't that mean each light gets a third of that power? So in reality, you're putting less than the nominal 300 to each light?

If you have three LEDs, you'd need either one 3000mA or three 1000mA to drive them at full power..?


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## darelldd (Oct 2, 2006)

aridese said:


> If you're using one nFlex controller for three lights at 750mA, doesn't that mean each light gets a third of that power? So in reality, you're putting less than the nominal 300 to each light?
> 
> If you have three LEDs, you'd need either one 3000mA or three 1000mA to drive them at full power..?


Negative! The emitters are strung in series. Every emitter sees the same current. You just have to have enough Voltage into the circuit to supply enough for all the Vf's of the LEDs. Those you need to add together. The current is the same across all.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

aridese said:


> If you're using one nFlex controller for three lights at 750mA, doesn't that mean each light gets a third of that power? So in reality, you're putting less than the nominal 300 to each light?
> 
> If you have three LEDs, you'd need either one 3000mA or three 1000mA to drive them at full power..?


Here's a really good site that has tutorials on basic electronics so that you can understand current, voltage, and resistance in series and parallel circuits. Yes, as Darelldd points out, when wired in series, each LED receives the same current. If you wired them in parallel, the current would be divided amongst them (which is why we don't usually wire them in parallel).


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## kevin101 (Jun 21, 2007)

on dealextreme theyre selling a 5 pack of p4 xr-e's for $24.50. thats cheaper than 3 xre's on cutter and you get 5. you could use the extra two on a handlebar light or on another headight.


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## kevin101 (Jun 21, 2007)

you could build your own pack out of cheap li-ion cells to save money. there are cheap 18650 cells on dealextreme that you could build your pack out of. dealextreme does not sell protection circuits but batteryspace does. this protection circuit has a max discharge rate of 8 amps and a fuel guage socket for the neat fuel guage add on. you press the button and it tells you how much power is in your pack.

parts list for 14.8 volt 4.8 amp pack
2400mah 18650 cells X8(shipping included) $39.20
protection circuit for pack $7.99
fuel guage for pack $3.99
7 amp polyswitch $1.19
heavy duty shrink wrap $2.59
Total:$54.96

thats a great price for a great battery pack but its a little bit more with cables (pick your own) and shipping, but its still a great price. the 18650 cells are also a great deal! you save alot of money building it yourself. loook at this pack. you save a ton of money building it yourself


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Kevin. Good info. But I don't see the savings of building your own Li-Ion pack. At all-battery.com you can get an already built 14.8v, 4400mA Li-Ion pack for 59.95. For $5.00 I will let them do the soldering and shrink-wrapping.


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## Zero_Enigma (Dec 14, 2006)

Just curious but has anyone made thier light to have side light as well for a 180 degree front coverage? What I mean is like if you're in strobe mode and want some side coverage so cars can see you on the sides like a normal blinkie.

Also for anyone with the June 1/2007 nflex v4 reg.board I'm curious the SWA and SWB, can you wire two switches buttons on the board? My thinking is (and if the board works this way) is like the Cygolite Dual Cross where you have two buttons on it that allow you to toggle up in brightness and the other to toggle down in brightness. I'm curious if the SWA/SWB scroll up/down in brightness? Sorry for the noob questions. I'm still trying to understand more before building. I've got a few light ideas and improvements already but just need to get the project off the ground first.

Thanks in advance.


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## HuffyMan (Oct 19, 2005)

Hey guys,

I just finished up what i started almost a year ago, a simple 3 x LuxIII helmet light. I took 'er out for her maiden voyage tonight and it worked like a champ. I am quite pleased, but i do agree that a more floodish handlebar light would compliment it nicely.

So i come here and now read how obsolete these LuxIIIs are and want some of these new Crees. I see here (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2394) They are now at Q5 binning. This hasnt been mentioned so far that i've seen. I do want this bin, right? I plan to run them at 1A w/ a bflex or maybe a buckpuck.

achesalot, do you think i'd be better off just replacing my current LuxIIIs w/ the Cree and new optics and calling it a day? Then maybe i wouldnt even need a second light and i wouldnt have to fab up a whole new housing.. Does that make sense or is two seperate lights still desirable?

Thanks a lot


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

HuffyMan said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I just finished up what i started almost a year ago, a simple 3 x LuxIII helmet light. I took 'er out for her maiden voyage tonight and it worked like a champ. I am quite pleased, but i do agree that a more floodish handlebar light would compliment it nicely.
> 
> ...


First of all. Two seperate lights is always more desirable, but I often ride with just my helmet light (a triple SSC P4 U-bin). You didn't say what optics or reflectors you were using, but the Seoul Semiconductor P4 (u-bin) also available on a star from DX is pretty much a direct replacement for the Lux III. I use Lux III optics (2x15, 1x5) with my SSC and it is a great light. If you change to the Cree, you'll have to change optics as well.


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## HuffyMan (Oct 19, 2005)

hrmm after reading around here it seems these new Q5 Cree are pretty damn bright.

Maybe i'll build a 2 LED Q5 cree w/ the intent of being a flood handlebar light. W/ this in mind, what optics would you recommend? Stick w/ your combination or maybe go full out flood? 2 wides? a diffuser and a wide? medium and a wide? should i just do 3 LEDs "while i'm in there"? gah.

If this new handlebar light overpowers my 3xLuxIII spot, i'll just upgrade it later.

Have you had any trouble running the Crees at 1amp? Should i just get a hardwired dimless 1A buckpuck to save a few bucks? I'm not really interested in all the features of the bflex. At least not yet, my lights are still too ugly for that level of complication 

Also, what are these 9* and 4* lenses you mention? I"m looking here: http://www.led-spot.com/data/CRS.pdf and don't see these angles.

Thanks again


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## cdn-dave (Jan 6, 2007)

Just wondering about the wiring - with wiring the LEDs in series, doesn't a voltage drop within the LED itself affect the brightness of the next LED? Or is it negligible?

Obviously I'm not an EE, but have some friends that are! Intuitively it seemed a parallel config would keep all the LEDs at the same brightness, and if one burnt out it wouldn't affect the next ones.

Any advice?

thanks!
dave


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## aridese (Aug 12, 2006)

cdn-dave said:


> Just wondering about the wiring - with wiring the LEDs in series, doesn't a voltage drop within the LED itself affect the brightness of the next LED? Or is it negligible?
> 
> Obviously I'm not an EE, but have some friends that are! Intuitively it seemed a parallel config would keep all the LEDs at the same brightness, and if one burnt out it wouldn't affect the next ones.
> 
> ...


Absolutely-positively correct. There is a voltage drop, but there is no current drop. If there is enough voltage to compensate for all the voltage drops of the three lights, then the voltage will not dip below 3.7v at each light. That's why the battery packs used are not 3.7v batteries, but 15v -- there has to be enough "breathing room" for the voltage drop of each light. In a parallel circuit, you would be cutting the current three times in half (but you wouldn't need as high a voltage -- the battery could be 3.7v) I asked this question a page ago:

"If you're using one nFlex controller for three lights at 750mA, doesn't that mean each light gets a third of that power? So in reality, you're putting less than the nominal 300 to each light?
If you have three LEDs, you'd need either one 3000mA or three 1000mA to drive them at full power..?"

and the answers:

"Negative! The emitters are strung in series. Every emitter sees the same current. You just have to have enough Voltage into the circuit to supply enough for all the Vf's of the LEDs. Those you need to add together. The current is the same across all."

And some (apparently EE or wannabe EE) guy posted this amazing link: http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricCircuits/DC/index.html.

In effect, if you supply enough voltage across the chain to compensate for the voltage drop, the lights _will remain equally bright_. Electronics is amazing -- check out that link. Tons of cool stuff to do =)

I'm also the biggest wannabe EE -- correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.


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## mrbubbles (Apr 9, 2007)

cdn-dave said:


> Just wondering about the wiring - with wiring the LEDs in series, doesn't a voltage drop within the LED itself affect the brightness of the next LED? Or is it negligible?
> 
> Obviously I'm not an EE, but have some friends that are! Intuitively it seemed a parallel config would keep all the LEDs at the same brightness, and if one burnt out it wouldn't affect the next ones.
> 
> ...


LED voltage is negligible, you can't tell the differences.
LEDs rarely if ever burned out (you can overheat the emitter without heatsinking it, I've done that, not cool). 
Most of them are rated at 50,000 hours or more, by the time you used it for 15,000, you are most likely on the next brightest LED chip anyways.


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## aridese (Aug 12, 2006)

True, but at high temperatures (about 60-90C) the LED material begins to degrade. I think it's something called lumen maintenance or optical degradation, but there is a loss of lumen output when compared to time. At _any_ temperature this will occur, obviously at -20C itll take 50,000 hours or more, but at 120C the process could show perceivable results in a thousand hours. Same goes for processors, videocards, RAM, and quite a bit of other electronics. If heat doesn't fry it immediately, it'll fry it eventually =/

And I think I know where this "lights get dimmer in a series circuit" fallacy comes from -- remember those textbooks which drew AC incandescent lightbulbs in series and parallel circuits? They got dimmer in series, and were equally as bright in parallel (just not equally bright to the first series one .


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## cdn-dave (Jan 6, 2007)

Awesome, thanks the replies! I think I'm well on my way, just have to decide which XR-E to buy. I'm sure the P4s will be adequate for my riding (xc trails, <2hrs), but for just a few $ more I could get the Q5...

I'm going with the 1" square AL tubing, any problems fitting the bFlex controller (from TaskLED) in?


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## Hack On Wheels (Apr 29, 2006)

cdn-dave said:


> Awesome, thanks the replies! I think I'm well on my way, just have to decide which XR-E to buy. I'm sure the P4s will be adequate for my riding (xc trails, <2hrs), but for just a few $ more I could get the Q5...
> 
> I'm going with the 1" square AL tubing, any problems fitting the bFlex controller (from TaskLED) in?


From my way of looking at it... in for a penny, in for a pound. If you are already spending a bunch of money to make the light, you might as well pay the extra bit for the Q5s and get a nice jump in output, after all.. the point of a light is to illuminate, so might as well not cut any corners when it comes to the LEDs!


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

cdn-dave said:


> Awesome, thanks the replies! I think I'm well on my way, just have to decide which XR-E to buy. I'm sure the P4s will be adequate for my riding (xc trails, <2hrs), but for just a few $ more I could get the Q5...
> 
> I'm going with the 1" square AL tubing, any problems fitting the bFlex controller (from TaskLED) in?


XR-E Q5 is great... as is Seoul P4 (U-bin). I do find better selection and availability of lenses for SSC P4 however, since it can use Lux III lenses typically w/o modifications.
No problem fitting bFlex in 1" square aluminum tube. You can mount it diagonally as well.


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## Katzenjammer (Jun 12, 2007)

What's the real-world diff in output between the Q5 and the U-bin P4, anyone know?


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Both are in the same vicinity of lumen output, and the Crees are binned a little tighter:

Cree XR-E Q5: 107 - 114 lumens @ 350 mA
SSC P4 U-bin 91 - 118.5 lumens @ 350 mA

both increase output by about 220% at 1A (according to manufacturers)

So depending on your luck with the Seoul, you could end up with a brighter light or if unlucky, one that has a little less output than a Cree Q5. Most likely, they will be pretty close though. I've bought about 25 Seouls and all but one looked great in color and output. I've bought about 12 Crees XR-Es and have actually seemed to had more output and color variation... so much for the tighter binning? Just my observation. How about you guys?


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## joebreez (Sep 10, 2005)

I think both the Cree's and the Seoul's are great choices but from what I understand the Cree's apparently run slightly cooler. I don't know why,but that seems to an observation I've read about quite a bit in these forums-although not backed by any science I know of...
I also think that the Seoul's have more lens options than the Cree's, but that seems to be changing.Seoul's are able to use the same lenses as the Luxeon LED's from what I understand.

Eric S


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## cdn-dave (Jan 6, 2007)

Honest, I'm trying to keep up but it's freaky how much information there is in these Forums!

What are your thoughts on the Ledil square lenses for the SSC P4s http://www.led-spot.com/data/SSS.pdf?

Where can I buy these? I sent led-spot a note wondering if they'd sell me three...

Or are reflectors and clear Lexan cover the way to go now?

Thanks as always for your input!

dave


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## joebreez (Sep 10, 2005)

When I built my triple Cree I used the Ledil square optics and I can honestly say they are great. I assume the Seoul version should be great as well. I think Alan(achesalot) has used these with much success.

Eric S


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Yes, the square Ledil are nice lenses and look great in the square tubing, but for the Seoul, I actually think I prefer the less expensive 20mm L2 lenses available from ledsupply. I use 2x15 degree and 1x5 degree lens. Don't forget to purchase the lens holders (Luxeon III or V Star Optic Holder) as well. These were originally designed for the Luxeon LEDs but work great with the SCC P4.

http://www.ledsupply.com/20mm.php

Additionally, center the square Ledils in the square tubing and lining them up perfectly with the emitter is tricky... cause everything is a close fit. Looks great once you get it though. One issue I have with the Ledils, is that their wider angle lenses use a diffuser that tends to cut out too much light. My Triple Cree uses the Ledils with 1x4 degree and 2x9 degree, but it is a little tight-beamed for my taste... but some love it.


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## rockymtnway (Nov 14, 2004)

I just built a project with two Q5s that came from the same order, were on the same board (had to snap them apart), but they are noticably different colors with one being significantly warmer than the other. I can't say I can perceive a difference in brightness, per se, but the Seouls seem to be more consistent in color temperature.

Frankly, it seems like six of one, half dozen of the other. There's projects where it's nice to work with the unboarded Seouls, so I have a slight preference there. I just found Marubeni in Santa Clara sells the square Ledil lenses for both the Cree and the Seouls in all degrees for less money than Cutter and better shipping times, too. Sure, you have to fax in your order rather than the convenience of a fancy website but I hate putting a project on hold because I'm waiting for bits. Contact info If you e-mail them, they'll e-mail you an order form to fax back.


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## notenoughtime (Sep 7, 2004)

achesalot said:


> XR-E Q5 is great... as is Seoul P4 (U-bin). I do find better selection and availability of lenses for SSC P4 however, since it can use Lux III lenses typically w/o modifications.
> No problem fitting bFlex in 1" square aluminum tube. You can mount it diagonally as well.


So comparing these two...
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1445
and
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2394

Running at 1000mA, should I expect approximately equal light output? I currently have a dual Lux3 setup, running with a 1000mA buckpuck and 20mm L2 optics. I want to reuse this if possible. I think achesalot mentioned that the Lux3 optics work better with the Seoul. If that's the case, I'm leaning towards the Seoul, and because it's cheaper. Any heat issues regarding either? If I remember correctly, are my Lux3s rated at around 80 lumens @ 1000mA? Just trying to get a comparison. Thanks.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

notenoughtime said:


> So comparing these two...
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1445
> and
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2394
> ...


Yep. That's a no-brainer. The Seouls are a direct replacement with everything you've got there! Going Cree would require a change of optics. No more heat than with the Luxeon III.


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## cdn-dave (Jan 6, 2007)

Okay, thanks for the advice everyone. You've almost got me convinced to go with the SCC P4, and not the square Ledils. Availability plays a huge role...

I was initially leaning towards the square Ledil so as to avoid having to find/add a piece of Lexan over the front to protect everything. If I don't hear back from LED-spot soon, I'll go ahead with the Ledsupply L2 lenses.

thanks again!
dave


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## notenoughtime (Sep 7, 2004)

Hey achesalot, and another else who might know - 
For my Lux3 build, I used L2 optics. On both of my lenses, I have a cloudy spot, opposite of the tab on the lens that keys to the holder. If my buckpuck and lens setup looked like this... { 1 ) { 2 ) buckpuck, the keyed side is {, and the cloudy side is ). I don't know why both of the right sides of each lens would cloud over. I'd understand if both centers did it, or maybe the side from the buckpuck, but seeing the lens marked as 1 have the cloudy spot throws it all off. Any thoughts?


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

I've never seen this... all I can think is that maybe your LuxIIIs were getting real hot and perhaps that caused it, or some moisture got inside. If they are cloudy, it might be worthwhile to order new ones since they are only 2.00 each.


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## spano (Aug 29, 2007)

*Lens Covers*

I have completed two triple Cree helmet lights and two dual Seoul handle bar lights(achesalot - thanks for your help). A couple of ideas that I thought I would share.

To mount a clear lens cover, I bought some .020 thick lexan and cut it to the outside dimensions of the case (1"x3" or 1"x2"). I then cut 1/4" strips of aluminum adhesive backed tape (the HVAC type you would get at Lowes...it is high temp too) and wrapped it around the case and folded it approximately 1/16" over the edge of the Lexan. This looks good and when the lens needs changing form crud and scratches, it is very easy to pull off the tape and put a new cover on.

The other idea I incorporated into the light is instead of using the angle brackets, I JB Welded a 3/16" OD brass tube (~2" long) to the inside wall of the main body (directly opposite side of the LEDs). Then I JB Welded a wing nut to an 8-32 threaded rod (Lowes) that was about 2-3/4" long and slid it inside the tube and nutted the other end. This serves the same purpose as the two bolts on the Achesalot design but it leaves alot more room to stuff the main body. Just some ideas...Joe


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

spano said:


> I have completed two triple Cree helmet lights and two dual Seoul handle bar lights(achesalot - thanks for your help). A couple of ideas that I thought I would share.
> 
> To mount a clear lens cover, I bought some .020 thick lexan and cut it to the outside dimensions of the case (1"x3" or 1"x2"). I then cut 1/4" strips of aluminum adhesive backed tape (the HVAC type you would get at Lowes...it is high temp too) and wrapped it around the case and folded it approximately 1/16" over the edge of the Lexan. This looks good and when the lens needs changing form crud and scratches, it is very easy to pull off the tape and put a new cover on.
> 
> The other idea I incorporated into the light is instead of using the angle brackets, I JB Welded a 3/16" OD brass tube (~2" long) to the inside wall of the main body (directly opposite side of the LEDs). Then I JB Welded a wing nut to an 8-32 threaded rod (Lowes) that was about 2-3/4" long and slid it inside the tube and nutted the other end. This serves the same purpose as the two bolts on the Achesalot design but it leaves alot more room to stuff the main body. Just some ideas...Joe


These both sound like great tips! Thanks for sharing. I might give 'em a try.


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## zen bicycle (Mar 23, 2007)

Might as well add to the post count...

One trick I use for the L2 optics with ssc p4's is I take the aluminum tubing and turn it length ways then use a wood speed bore drill bit to drill 3 holes on one side. Take a 486 computer heat sink and AA to the oposite side. An Oring and a piece of Lexan/plexi will press fit everything together. Then you don't have to worry about a round peg in a square hole.

I like the tape idea Joe as it might be fairly water proof too.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

zen bicycle said:


> Might as well add to the post count...
> 
> One trick I use for the L2 optics with ssc p4's is I take the aluminum tubing and turn it length ways then use a wood speed bore drill bit to drill 3 holes on one side. Take a 486 computer heat sink and AA to the oposite side. An Oring and a piece of Lexan/plexi will press fit everything together. Then you don't have to worry about a round peg in a square hole.
> 
> I like the tape idea Joe as it might be fairly water proof too.


It's hard for me to visualize exactly what you are talking about here. Got any photos?


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## zen bicycle (Mar 23, 2007)

I had to go take some

This was the prototype so it is a bit ruff, but will give you an idea

First is of the aluminum tube with one side drilled

Second is another shot

Third is type of drill bit. I call it a speed bit, but it might be known to everyone else by another name. This is not the correct size, I destoyed the one I had tinkering with an idea :nono: 

Fourth is the components stacked up so you get an idea. This is actually with an old lux III so it is a little taller than the Seoul, I also couldn't find a #30 O ring that I use to pull everything together.

Final is the light assembled, I was in a rush so one of the o rings crushed down funny, but it doesn't seem to affect anything.


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## OrangOlly (Dec 8, 2007)

Hi all
Fantastic info here, and great "How to" site Allen. I've finally taken the plunge and ordered the parts to build a Triple Cree Q3 with the Bflex UI2 Driver. Hope to build it over Xmas.
A couple of questions. I ride in the UK and it rains heavily a lot. How does the design in Allen's how to site stand up to heavy rain anyone? Will I need to adapt to make it more waterproof? 
Second, I cant find a source for the optics in the UK, Ledil won't supply to Europe and I don't want to wait for post from Austrailia. Any ideas anyone?
Third, has anyone thought of painting the outer Alu black? This would increase heat radiation, (this would be significant but I'm not sure how much). Certainly polishing as suggested earlier in the forum would not help thermal issues.
Thanks in advance all.


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## [jsl] (Sep 20, 2007)

OrangOlly said:


> Ledil won't supply to Europe


What do you mean? Ledil is a Finnish company and last time I checked Finland was in Europe. How to buy from them is, admittedly, rather unclear. Email them, that's what I did.


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## OrangOlly (Dec 8, 2007)

Thanks Jsl, did you get cree lenses successfully from ledil then? Maybe I should just follow the train further. The story so far.
I started with Ledil US, who directed me to Ledil Finland, who redirected me to their UK supplier, looking at the Forge-europa website they dont stock Cree Lenses.
At this point I thought I'd ask for alternatives.

I've just seen that Cutter in Aus do airmail at only a couple of extra dollars so I'll probably get them from there. They also seem to be the only easy source of Cree R2 bin leds. So I may order some of those at the same time.
Edit, sorry just realised that I have posted this as a new topic, but don't know how to move its. I'm a forum noob


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Zen: thanks for posting the photos. Now I understand  Did you have a thread on that design already? It seems I remember seeing something like that. It makes for a really compact light. Probably no room for connector, switch or electronics though. I worry a little about the heatsink inside the housing thing. The heatsink fins will do little good inside the housing, but I understand you had to have something to mount the stars to. The most important thing is that heat is thermally conducted to the outside of the light. That quad should really put out some light!

OragOlly: Using silicone caulk to seal all seams in the light will make it waterproof. Hint: you can smear it in all the cracks, then clean up your body with ammonia-based window cleaner before the caulk dries. The switch and connector will probably also require some upgrade to waterproof the light. I don't ride in the rain (on purpose) but have been caught in some light showers without problem and I don't really have waterproof switches or connectors. Actually any paint is going to act as an insulator and trap some heat into the light. Think of wrapping the light in a thin layer of plastic (insulator). Certain paints might have better properties than others, I have not researched this much. Anodizing would be ideal. If you do paint, keep it as thin as possible. Good luck with the Ledils. Cutter and Ledspot.com are the only two sources I know of.


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## [jsl] (Sep 20, 2007)

OrangOlly said:


> Thanks Jsl, did you get cree lenses successfully from ledil then?


Yeah, I did get them.. eventually


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## zen bicycle (Mar 23, 2007)

Yeah I posted in the light database, the ends of the light are open so air can get to the back side of the heat sink as well as being AAed to the back and sides of the tube, not optimal for maximum cooling, but simplistic and effective enough. It gets warm to the touch if you aren't moving and I only run it at 850ma at max as well as having a dimmer. It is actually cooler running than my two light setup while moving?? The holes for the wires are cemented in with JB weld at build time so it is fairly water resistant, at least splash proof.


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## Hack On Wheels (Apr 29, 2006)

About the painting... If I recall correctly, there was a thread somewhere on CPF in which someone experimented and found that heat was radiated off better when a black paint was used, as opposed to when no paint was used. Unfortunately the details are foggy, if I find the thread again, I will post up a link. (I would assume that a thin matte black would be most effective?)

For waterproofing once the light is assembled, tested, and good to go, there isn't really any reason to not use silicon caulking on all the seams, is there?


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Hack On Wheels said:


> About the painting... If I recall correctly, there was a thread somewhere on CPF in which someone experimented and found that heat was radiated off better when a black paint was used, as opposed to when no paint was used. Unfortunately the details are foggy, if I find the thread again, I will post up a link. (I would assume that a thin matte black would be most effective?)
> 
> For waterproofing once the light is assembled, tested, and good to go, there isn't really any reason to not use silicon caulking on all the seams, is there?


I'm not a physicist, and just try to apply common logic (which doesn't always work in physics) to the paint issue. I understand how black paint absorbs light and white paint reflects light, but I'm unsure about why black paint would aid thermal conductivity of heat from the aluminum body. It seems like it would matter more as to what the paint is made from than its color. Anyway, I do work with a PhD physicist, and I'll ask him about it.

I use a clear silicone caulk (it acutally starts out white and turns clear when it is dry) to attach a front lens cover (optical Lexan). Also, I smear it into all the seams and wipe off excess with a paper towel and ammonia-based window cleaner. You don't really want to use silicone between any parts that need to transfer heat, but it's OK to fill a gap in a seam. I use the non-adhesive thermal transfer paste between the front housing and the body to aid heat transfer to that part, after all, that's nearly 10 square inches of heatsink! On this point, I've also started using a thicker 1/8" piece of aluminum behind the LEDs as a backing plate, because it makes for a better thermal connection between the light body and the front housing that covers the LEDs (so it's that contact area where I place the non-adhesive themal heatsink compound).


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## spano (Aug 29, 2007)

Adding the 1/8" aluminum and thermal compound is a good way to provide a thermal path to the exterior. Heat sinks on the outside will do no good unless you can minimize the resistance in the thermal circuit.

FYI - Attached are photos of my helmet and handle bar mounted lights (of course, thanks to the Achesalot design).

Photo 1 is a front view showing the .020" thick Lexan attached to the front body using the adhesive backed aluminum tape.

Photo 2 is a back view of the helmet mount. I used a pig tail for the electrical connection.

Photo 3 & 4 shows the handle bar mount. The attachment to the polyurethane base and the body assembly is all done with one wing nut.

Photo 4 also shows my atempt to provide a good thermal path to the front of the light. I applied a fillet of AA around the aluminum squares and clamped the front of the light housing to it (with mold release) before it cured. This way, the front housing is a press fit to the main housing. This is probably not as efficient as the thermal compound, but better than an air gap...Joe


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Joe. Looks like you've done everything right... and then some. Also I see you've used bare emitters as opposed to stars. That also will mean cooler emitters... with no MCPCB between the slug and the heatsink, but I admit I mostly use stars just cause they're easier. I only have one triple SSC that I've used bare emitters on. 

Many people don't realize, but the warmer the LED gets, the dimmer it gets. So the cooler you can keep your LEDs, the brighter your light will be... and the LEDs will of course maintain their output for many years.


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## OrangOlly (Dec 8, 2007)

I was a physicst way back when I graduated 20 years ago, don't suppose it counts now, but I still remember the basics. There are two mechanisms operating to remove heat in this situation. Radiation and conduction. Radiation from a black body is proportional to the fourth power of the temperature difference (delta T x delta T x delta T x delta T) Stephan's law if you're interested. Conduction is all about the temperature gradient and is linear. Hence for small temp differences, conduction will be most significant, moisture content of the air will also have a significant effect. But once the light starts to heat significantly above ambient radiation will kick in in a big way. You'd need to plug all the parameters, (which I'm sure none of us have) to work out the temp at which radiation becomes more significant. But if anyone is going to experiment. Make sure you do experiments at high and low differences from ambient. Once radiation is the major factor, the colour will matter quite a bit.
So the summary, the paint may actually act as an insulating layer if the light is only a few degrees above ambient, but if the lights hot, then black paint will defintely help.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Interesting stuff indeed. Thanks for the physics info. Although I'm not convinced that an aluminum bike light, painted black, is really the same as a black body... since the Earth is considered a black body in the language of physics. No doubt, black anodizing is the ultimate.


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## OrangOlly (Dec 8, 2007)

Good point, what is a black body? 
After much pondering I found this link which answers everything experimentally.
Two experiments, first shows that without airflow, painted or (if you read down to the emissivity list) anodised Alu do run cooler at high temp. Then further down a second showing that the effect is negligible in moving air.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=143193&highlight=black+coating

This link has it all really.


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## Hack On Wheels (Apr 29, 2006)

So I was just about to make my order from Cutter when I noticed that they now have WH binned Q5s...
This got me thinking as I have recently been reading a bit of debate involving things such as Halogens having better colour rendition. Is it possible the in the search for the brightest lights, people are drifting to WC (and comparable) tinted LEDs to get what seems brighter, but is actually less useful?
Are there any reasons not to go for LEDs with a WG tint or a WH tint? After all, they are still "cold white" but if the talk about colour temperature, colour rendition, and usable light has merit then could they not be a better choice than the more expensive WC bin?
In all my searching I couldn't find a satisfactory answer, does anyone with experience in these matters want to weigh in?
Also, what is the reason for the WC binned LEDs being more expensive? Higher quality somehow? Or just more demand? If they are as cold white as some people say, they could even be harsh and simply less pleasing to look at...

Edit: Based on the binning graph I looked at, it would seem that the WH would actually be the most likely to avoid odd tints such as greens and blues and with the more yellowish tint it would be closer to natural light and therefore easiest/nicest to use. Any thoughts?


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## [jsl] (Sep 20, 2007)

Hack On Wheels said:


> Edit: Based on the binning graph I looked at, it would seem that the WH would actually be the most likely to avoid odd tints such as greens and blues and with the more yellowish tint it would be closer to natural light and therefore easiest/nicest to use. Any thoughts?


Yes. The "natural light" is not yellow at all, it's white.


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## Hack On Wheels (Apr 29, 2006)

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow, do you mean that yes the WH tint would be more natural?
I guess the "yellow" would be relative, having no hands on experience, I was strictly going by the binning (chromaticity, I think is the word) chart that I found.


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## [jsl] (Sep 20, 2007)

Hack On Wheels said:


> Sorry, I'm not sure I follow, do you mean that yes the WH tint would be more natural?
> I guess the "yellow" would be relative, having no hands on experience, I was strictly going by the binning (chromaticity, I think is the word) chart that I found.


I mean that the sunlight is white, thus, white is more "natural" than yellow(ish). As to the difference in actual use I have no idea, but I would imagine our eyes are best adapted to sunlight.


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## Hack On Wheels (Apr 29, 2006)

Oh, okay, thanks for clarifying!


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## Hack On Wheels (Apr 29, 2006)

It appears that now WD Q5s are available from cutter. These would hopefully be devoid of any blue, green, or other tints. Would this be better than the warmer WH? Yes/no, reasons?

Is the fact that I might be running a halogen bar light (overvolted) a good enough reason to go with WH no matter which is a better tint? It would presumably give a more pleasant light temperature/colour matching, but then again, the halogen may eventually be replaced.


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## CU-Murph (Apr 2, 2004)

Question for folks: Once you had all the parts on hand, about how long did it take to build you light? Also about how much did it set you back?

Thanks.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

CU-Murph said:


> Question for folks: Once you had all the parts on hand, about how long did it take to build you light? Also about how much did it set you back?
> 
> Thanks.


It originally took me about 8 hours total (over several days) to build one. Now I can build one in 5 or 6 hours. But of course that doesn't include all the time planning, on-line searching and figuring on which parts to order and from where, and purchasing of tools that I need (i.e go pick up new blades, sandpaper, etc). When I originally built the first Triple Cree, it cost me about $110 (US). Lately I've been building Triple SSC P4 lights, with L2 optics & 3023 Buckpuck for about $75. Of course that doesn't include the battery & charger which run close to $100 if you choose a 14.8V, 4A Li-Ion.


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## OrangOlly (Dec 8, 2007)

I've just finished cutting all the Aluminium bits and have glued the lense holder together.
Time spent
6 hours on the net researching and ordering online.
3 hours trawling around shops locally for other bits.
4 hours cutting and trimming Aluminium, hand tools only. I can't justify power tools. My top tip would be to buy a decent set of hand files if you are in my position.
I still have all the wiring to do and to fit the connector, push button, and batt indicator led to the case. Then to make the battery pack.
I reckon that by the time I've finished it'll be another 4 hours. I'll keep you posted. 
The good news is that I'm enjoying it and its keeping me and the kids out of my wife's hair.  Luckily the weathers been rotten so I don't mind not riding instead.
The next one would be much faster though.
I'm actually making two (but I took that into account in the times above).
Costs so far (bear in mind I'm in the UK and stuff costs more)
£61 for a triple CREE R2 bin, Bflex UI2 version of achesalot's design.
£47 for 8 cell li-ion battery pack and charger. 
But many bits are re-usable. The subsequent set is 
£35.
The £/$ rate is about 2 so double that to get dollars.

The LEDs and lenses still haven't arrived so I may get clobbered for inport duty.
I'll post an update on the final cost and time when I've tried them out.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

OrangOlly said:


> Good point, what is a black body?
> After much pondering I found this link which answers everything experimentally.
> Two experiments, first shows that without airflow, painted or (if you read down to the emissivity list) anodised Alu do run cooler at high temp. Then further down a second showing that the effect is negligible in moving air.
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=143193&highlight=black+coating
> ...


Thanks.
Yeah, Newbie on CPF does some awesome stuff! So it turns out that polished aluminum is even worse in terms of thermal emissivity... I wouldn't have guessed that. No wonder I never did well in physics  So with airflow (which we have with bikelights) it turns out to make no difference what color the light body is painted or if it is left unpainted.


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## Wadejp (Dec 28, 2007)

WOW what a wealth of information thanks, Alan.

I have decided to give it a try and build the new design that is based on the copper end caps. I am having a little difficulty that I would appreciate some help with.

I have all of the parts with the exception of the lights and started constructing the light, however, I am having problems with the Artic Silver adhesive drying. I purchased the Artic Silver 5 High Density Polysynthetic Silver Thermal Compound from Radio Shack. I glued the copper end caps to the base over 5 days ago and it still isn’t dry – I can move the caps easily. I am also having the same problem with gluing the aluminum end caps together. Did I purchase the wrong glue?

Thanks in advance

Jim


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## eddielee70 (Dec 28, 2006)

Wadejp said:


> WOW what a wealth of information thanks, Alan.
> 
> I have decided to give it a try and build the new design that is based on the copper end caps. I am having a little difficulty that I would appreciate some help with.
> 
> ...


you can wait a year and it won't dry. you need AAA glue. or I have use this with good results.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4579

but wait three week for delivery. so I guess buy the AAA from electronic store or Fry's if one is around you.


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## Wadejp (Dec 28, 2007)

*Having a little problem*

WOW what a wealth of information thanks, Alan.

I have decided to give it a try and build the new design that is based on the copper end caps. I am having a little difficulty that I would appreciate some help with.

I have all of the parts with the exception of the lights and started constructing the light, however, I am having problems with the Artic Silver adhesive drying. I purchased the Artic Silver 5 High Density Polysynthetic Silver Thermal Compound from Radio Shack. I glued the copper end caps to the base over 5 days ago and it still isn't dry - I can move the caps easily. I am also having the same problem with gluing the aluminum end caps together. Did I purchase the wrong glue?

Thanks in advance

Jim


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Wadejp said:


> WOW what a wealth of information thanks, Alan.
> 
> I have decided to give it a try and build the new design that is based on the copper end caps. I am having a little difficulty that I would appreciate some help with.
> 
> ...


What you used was not a glue, it is just a thermal transfer compound. You can wipe it off and start over. You will probably have to order the AAA (Arctic Alumina Adhesive) try newegg.com. AAA is a two-part epoxy based adhesive with good thermal xfer and zero electrical conductivity.


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## Wadejp (Dec 28, 2007)

Thanks Guys,

Where do you get all of this information?

I think you had that link on your original instructions, Alan. I thought I would try to save some time and get it locally, I ordered it today.

Thanks again

Jim


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Wadejp said:


> Thanks Guys,
> 
> Where do you get all of this information?
> Thanks again
> ...


(1)Right here (2)candlepowerforums.com (3)bikeled.org (4) google
You're welcome.


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## MoMaTo (Nov 26, 2007)

Hi Sir Achesalot 
Nice light(s)! In order to avoid the "bulk" of the main body I have the following idea: Use about 80 mm of square tubing, remove (21.6 * 3 =) 64.8 mm of one side, and use the remainder left at the ends for adhering some plexiglass for cover. Close the ends with aluminum plate. AAA the stars directly inside the tube, opposite the cut-away, and direct the wires to one end. Mount lenses and plexiglass. Glue some computer heatsinks to the back of the tube. And now the real question: since there is no room for the bFlex, switch etc I want to use a modified multi-lead cable, modify it with an inline switch going back to the driver located with the battery in the camel-back. (i.e. the cable will hold both wires from battery to light and wires from switch to driver). A multi-lead mouse cable would be good (I can use the switches also) but is the wire-gauge ok and is it a problem to have such distance from driver to leds??

Thanks for a very informative thread/board.

Best regards, Morten in Copenhagen


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Morten.
It sounds lightweight. Be sure to start a thread when you're finished to show us!
I don't think you'll have a problem with the driver a few feet down the wire.
Good luck.
-Allen


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## Wadejp (Dec 28, 2007)

Sir Achsalot – Ha Ha. Good one MoMaTo. I think it should just be “The king”. 

Sorry for the newbe questions but I seem to take 2 steps forward and one back. 

I just received the Seoul’s and you mentioned you had to cut the copper end caps. I have not purchased the Plexiglas because both Lowe’s and HD only had .07 thick material. Is that to thick? I am assuming that I should cut the copper end cap to the measurement of the Seoul, lens holder and the plexie. 

I have not purchased the battery either since it is the most expensive item. I wanted to make sure I could assemble this first – no guts – although I am committed. . I was looking for a calculator to determine what size battery I will need. My max ride is 3 hours at night using the 3 Seoul system. Does any one have a link to a battery calculator.

Thanks again this has been fun project

Jim


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Wadejp said:


> Sir Achsalot - Ha Ha. Good one MoMaTo. I think it should just be "The king".
> 
> Sorry for the newbe questions but I seem to take 2 steps forward and one back.
> 
> ...


Hi Jim. Glad you're having fun 
_This really should be in the Copperhead thread but:_
0.07" plexi sounds about right (that's close to 1/16"). Yes, cut the copper cap to the length of the sum of the parts. Actually, add just a little (1/16 - 1/32") to build up a bead of silicone caulk around the edge to form a seal in front of the plexi along the edges.

Yes, good batteries are expensive. I would choose the 14.8v, 4A Li-Ion to ensure a good 3 hour ride (you could probably get 4+hrs with it though). I most recently bought some from batteryspace (about $53 for battery + $27 for charger + some wiring and connectors + S&H) gets the total just under $100.

*Typical battery, charger, connectors and wires order for me below:*

Li-Ion 18650 14.8V 4000mAh Battery Pack with PCB and prewired ( LCH1P2S4R2WR )
$52.95

Universal Smart Charger (1.5A) for 14.8V Li-Ion Battery Pack (4 cells ) with two pins universal connector
$26.95

Connector: 8 Detachable Laptop Connectors for the most of laptop computers
$3.95 (I only use one of these to fit the female in my light)

Connector: Universal Two Pins connector ( Female ) with 117 cm cable
$2.95

Subtotal	$86.80 + $8.98 S&H = $95.78


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## MoMaTo (Nov 26, 2007)

Don't you worry about balancing the battery-pack?

BR, Morten


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

MoMaTo said:


> Don't you worry about balancing the battery-pack?
> 
> BR, Morten


I'm not sure what you mean.


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## MoMaTo (Nov 26, 2007)

*Balancing...*

I'll try my best 

Li-Ion cells in series needs balancing during or after charging so that all cells in the pack are equally charged. This is needed because the charger cannot distinguish individual cells and thus charges until the first cell reaches the target voltage. Over time, this will severely limit the life of the pack. To avoid this, you need a balancing circuit (some chargers has this already built in, but you still need to wire the battery pack accordingly).

Sorry if this was obvious, just thought it was missing in the build list above 

fx http://www.3dhobbyshop.com/detail.aspx?ID=1620


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Thanks for the info. I'm certainly not an expert on Li-Ion technology, but I looked around at all-battery.com and batteryspace.com and saw no mention of this. I assume that, if it is important, it is built into either the protection PCB on the batterypack and/or integrated into the charger. I'm wonerdering if the product you refer to in the link is intended for packs that don't have built-in protection/regulation circuit ... in that case it would make sense. I personally don't buy any unprotected/unregulated batterypacks. The integrated PCB takes care of short-circuits, over-charge, over-discharge, over-temp, etc. Although there is no mention of balancing in the specs for the PCB on the batterypack, it might be implied in some of the other functionality and perhaps they use different terminology.


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## sloshred (Jan 1, 2005)

achesalot - I have a newbie wiring question.
re: Typical battery, charger, connectors and wires order ... (from 2 days ago)

1) There are 2 bare wires at the battery. Do you connect these to the bare ends of the cable you show the link to (the other end being the 2-pin female connector). If you do this you must need another cable: one end the male DC connector to the light and a 2-pin male? 

2) I am starting to order/gather supplies to build you cool-looking copperhead!
The Seoul P4 LEDs are backordered at dealextreme. Do you know if the Cree XR-E Q5 LEDs will work with the 20mm L2 lenses and holders from ledsupply that you show links to?

thanks for the help!


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

sloshred said:


> 2) I am starting to order/gather supplies to build you cool-looking copperhead!
> The Seoul P4 LEDs are backordered at dealextreme. Do you know if the Cree XR-E Q5 LEDs will work with the 20mm L2 lenses and holders from ledsupply that you show links to?


These should work with the Cree's http://www.ledsupply.com/optx.php

I ordered Seoul P4's from DealExtreme Dec. 27 and they just shipped Jan. 17. :madmax:


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Baulz said:


> These should work with the Cree's http://www.ledsupply.com/optx.php


But be aware that the L2 Rockets will not fit in 1" aluminum square tubing or the 3/4" copper end caps. Just a heads up: they are 26.5mm in diameter.


Baulz said:


> I ordered Seoul P4's from DealExtreme Dec. 27 and they just shipped Jan. 17. :madmax:


That's nothing. I ordered some Cree XR-E Q2 bin from Cutter back in Nov 06 and didn't recieve them til late Feb 07... right before the Q5 was released. I paid premium dollar for a cutting edge product, and didn't get it until the next gen was already out. You really can't get mad cause something runs out of stock and gets backordered... it all depends upon the manufacturer supplying the goods to the seller. Granted, they should post on the site if a product is currently out of stock and on backorder. Sometimes a manufacturer makes promises and can't deliver on time due to production difficulties, etc.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

sloshred said:


> achesalot - I have a newbie wiring question.
> re: Typical battery, charger, connectors and wires order ... (from 2 days ago)
> 
> 1) There are 2 bare wires at the battery. Do you connect these to the bare ends of the cable you show the link to (the other end being the 2-pin female connector). If you do this you must need another cable: one end the male DC connector to the light and a 2-pin male?


If you'll note from the parts list above (in #160). I attach the raw end of the 117cm cable to the raw wires on the battery. The other end of that cable has the female two-pin connector. (It is convenient because it plugs into the male connector on the charger) To hook to my light, I use one of the 8 detachable laptop connectors that are a barrel type connector adapted to the male two-pin. It plugs into twp-pin female connector on the wire, then into the female type M (5.5mm OD, 2.1mm ID) DC barrel (or coaxial connector) mounted on the light. Alternatively, you could make a short wire with the correct ends to replace this adapter.


sloshred said:


> 2) I am starting to order/gather supplies to build you cool-looking copperhead!
> The Seoul P4 LEDs are backordered at dealextreme. Do you know if the Cree XR-E Q5 LEDs will work with the 20mm L2 lenses and holders from ledsupply that you show links to?
> thanks for the help!


Nope. None of the optics for the SSC will work with the Cree. If going with the Cree, you'll need to find an optic that is specific for the Cree XR-E 7090 XLamp series. L2 makes one in the rocket series, but it is 26.5mm in diameter and will not fit inside any of the lights that I build. Cutter offers several choices in optics for the XR-E.

You're welcome on the help and good luck!


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## MoMaTo (Nov 26, 2007)

achesalot said:


> Thanks for the info. I'm certainly not an expert on Li-Ion technology, but I looked around at all-battery.com and batteryspace.com and saw no mention of this. I assume that, if it is important, it is built into either the protection PCB on the batterypack and/or integrated into the charger. I'm wonerdering if the product you refer to in the link is intended for packs that don't have built-in protection/regulation circuit ... in that case it would make sense. I personally don't buy any unprotected/unregulated batterypacks. The integrated PCB takes care of short-circuits, over-charge, over-discharge, over-temp, etc. Although there is no mention of balancing in the specs for the PCB on the batterypack, it might be implied in some of the other functionality and perhaps they use different terminology.


Well you are sort of right  The PCB (protection circuit board) is for protection - i.e user safety. The balancer - which none of the packs at batteryspace have - is for making better charged packs (longer lifetime and longer burntime/charge). There is no problem with using a pack without balancer, but if you want the most of the pack use a balancer.

See http://www.epn-online.com/page/1313...tery-capacity-pack-balancing-electronics.html

But again, user safety is "secured" by the PCB and a decent charger.

Best regards, Morten


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Morten. Thanks for the info and links on cell balancing...it's certainly something to be aware of. That's the great thing about these forums... you learn something new everyday!


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## MoMaTo (Nov 26, 2007)

achesalot said:


> Morten. Thanks for the info and links on cell balancing...it's certainly something to be aware of. That's the great thing about these forums... you learn something new everyday!


Exactly  Without your guide and help from CPF I would be kinda lost also! My batteries and LED's are waiting at the PO, cant wait to get it mounted into the housing!


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## kmacon (Nov 15, 2006)

*Sealing up light*

Hey Allen or anyone else who has dealt with this. What do you do to seal up the back part of the housing on your Triple Cree/Seoul light where the electronics is contained.  I am about at that stage and it seems that at least some silicone sealant or a rubber gasket would be in order to keep the moisture out? Or do you just JB weld it all together after you know it is working?
Kev


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## eddielee70 (Dec 28, 2006)

kmacon said:


> Hey Allen or anyone else who has dealt with this. What do you do to seal up the back part of the housing on your Triple Cree/Seoul light where the electronics is contained.  I am about at that stage and it seems that at least some silicone sealant or a rubber gasket would be in order to keep the moisture out? Or do you just JB weld it all together after you know it is working?
> Kev


I keep everything watertight with slicone for the copperhead, but the back I like to have access by using these 4mil thick rubber tape. find them at the home depot in the pipe section. sticky tape comes in 1" and 2" rolls. I bought the 2" roll and cut into 1"x2" section, then cut the inside out and tape it to the plate for sealing. I'll take pictures tonight after my ride.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

I use silicone caulking.


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## eddielee70 (Dec 28, 2006)

work very well to seal the plate to the light, so you can do repair or mod your DIY easily.


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## Froberg (Feb 25, 2008)

*Driver question*

Great thread !!

I'm going to make me one of those !

Can anybody tell me if I can use this driver; http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.7425 for 3 creeds XR-E Q5?
Or do I have to go for the nFlex or bFlex ?


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## Hambonio (Jul 16, 2008)

Can someone recommend a switch and dimmer from Digi-Key for this build?
Thanks!


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## Hambonio (Jul 16, 2008)

likhary said:


> can you tell me roughly the light output comparision between your light and the overvolted 20 watt halogen and can you give the bunch of us your materials supplier and cost of materials to build. ?


Click on the "DIY" link at the bottom of any post by "achesalot". Most of the info is there.


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## mdsjack (Oct 26, 2007)

@achesalot, Gilbo: how can the CRS lens be taken apart from its grey holder? where do I have to pull and how much strength is required?

THANKS.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

mdsjack said:


> @achesalot, Gilbo: how can the CRS lens be taken apart from its grey holder? where do I have to pull and how much strength is required?
> 
> THANKS.


A small screwdriver inserted into the slot on one side of the front will separate them. Not too hard to do.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

Froberg said:


> Great thread !!
> 
> I'm going to make me one of those !
> 
> ...


No, I don't think that driver will push 3 Crees. You can use a nFlex/bFlex or a 3023 wired buckpuck which is cheaper and simpler.


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## dkvick (Apr 16, 2004)

You can always use one of those cheap drivers per LED if you have room in the housing. It will be cheaper than a bflex etc. but not will not be as sophisticated. I have the same one that I used for an Easy DIY light and run one driver for each LED via one common switch and it works fine. I only had a 7.2 v battery pack so I did not have enough voltage for 2 LED plus the driver losses so I just ran them separately. A bit annoying having to cycle through all the modes if you want to go from low to high power. I figured it would be a good idea to run separate drivers since I was not sure about the reliability of such a cheap driver.


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## mdsjack (Oct 26, 2007)

achesalot said:


> A small screwdriver inserted into the slot on one side of the front will separate them. Not too hard to do.


Thank you! it worked like a charm: 2 of them made a small creaking noise (nothing to worry about), the other 2 came out more silently.:thumbsup:

I now feel less scared of messing up with the bottom of the holder to have it fitting the led star.


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## dan1million (Aug 16, 2009)

that is some nice work does any one have any beamshots for the really deep reflectors in post #88 ??

-Dan


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## dan1million (Aug 16, 2009)

Thankyou !


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