# What frame for rohloff?



## aBicycle (Jun 13, 2012)

I have a cross check, but is it really the frame for a Rohloff? It doesn't have a dedicated mount for it like the ogre and troll. But the ogre and troll would be a bit slow on the open road.

And I hate derailleurs. I just realized this with 10 speed. So this is what I'm looking for now.


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## Fatsinglespeeder (Jan 24, 2013)

Fitting a Rohloff to a Cross Check can be done but it would be a bit clumsy because you would have to use the Rohloff torque arm. I have a Moonlander with a Rohloff and I'm currently building a Troll with a Rohloff as a touring bike. I'd say, if you can afford it, get a frame that can take a Rohloff without that ugly torque arm. One can never have enough bikes, right?


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## rifraf (Dec 22, 2012)

aBicycle said:


> I have a cross check, but is it really the frame for a Rohloff? It doesn't have a dedicated mount for it like the ogre and troll. But the ogre and troll would be a bit slow on the open road.
> 
> And I hate derailleurs. I just realized this with 10 speed. So this is what I'm looking for now.


My suggestion would be to build your dream wheels first. See how you like them in your Cross Check and then determine whether you need the expense of a new bike.
I'm currently building some 29" wheels with Son28 Disk and Rohloff Disk.
I'm using Sapim CX-Rays with Velocity Dyad rims. They are wheels I've wanted to build for a long time. I am putting them into a Surly Ogre frame but if I wasnt making my wheels my priority, I'd probably be buying a Co-motion Rohloff Divide.
If your an on-road rider then pointless putting up with the weight of an off road bike (IMHO only). Saying that I believe the Ogre is a very versatile frame, which is why I bought one. It appears to be the closest I can find for "one bike to rule them all".
I've only accommodation for one bike so need something that can do everything well enough to satisfy. I believe the Ogre whilst not great at anything, is good enough at everything.


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## aBicycle (Jun 13, 2012)

How do the ogre handle racks and panniers?

And my roads aren't exactly roads much of the time. A lot of my riding would probably be on terrain very similar to that of cross country or cyclocross.

More dirt and caliche and that sort of thing.

It's bad enough that I'm reconsidering my stance on suspension forks. I could really use one of those and some tires that will go well on road, but will also grip in loose gravel/caliche.

About the geometry of the ogre. Could I pretty much get into the same position as I am on the cross check if I used a not set back seat post and kept the saddle a bit forward? There's only 1 degree of different in the seat tube angles. I'd be going with flat bars and would want them a few inches below the saddle.

I wonder if they make suspension forks for touring....


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## aBicycle (Jun 13, 2012)

I wonder, should it be an ogre or a troll? I would like fatter tires that also present less resistance to acceleration like the 26" ers of the troll would provide, but would the 29er's be better for smoothing over rough lumpy terrain?


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## Fatsinglespeeder (Jan 24, 2013)

aBicycle said:


> would the 29er's be better for smoothing over rough lumpy terrain?


Yes, that's what the proponents for 29ers say, but you pay for it with a little higher weight which you might not want on a touring bike because you carry enough weight already. Another consideration is that if you travel to far away places then it will be far easier to find a 26" replacement tyre tyre than a 29er.



aBicycle said:


> How do the ogre handle racks and panniers?


Fine, it's a strong frame that can stand up to the demands of loaded touring.



aBicycle said:


> I wonder if they make suspension forks for touring....


Yes, here's an interesting full suspension touring bike:
Panamericana Xplore

I prefer my bikes fully rigid because suspension soaks up some of your power when you're climbing and because I don't like the maintenance requirements of full suspension bikes.


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## rifraf (Dec 22, 2012)

aBicycle said:


> How do the ogre handle racks and panniers?
> 
> .


I have to wait till my wheels are finished to get the angles lined up level.


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## intheways (Apr 19, 2004)

Rad setup. I recently decided to pass on an alfine and hold out for a rohloff.


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## rifraf (Dec 22, 2012)

intheways said:


> Rad setup. I recently decided to pass on an alfine and hold out for a rohloff.


Reading about some of the hassles the Alfine 11 crowd have been having I think you, like me, have made the right choice. I glad I read the IGH forum before making a final purchase decision.

I went with Tubus racks as they seemed to have the highest spec for carrying weight whilst being amongst the lightest of available racks. I got the stainless ones due to seeing lots of racks rusting where the panniers had scrapped the racks paint. Mostly a cosmetic issue than a serious rust one but aesthetics are important to me.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

I had a steel 29er frame for rohloff....the main two points here are braze ons for cables and paragon sliders for the OEM drop out. This is what made it a good frame for Rohloff. Going on what you say about your use, I think it is the way you should go, with the addition of mounting points for racks. The frame only weighed 2.1kg and you then have all the choices for forks and tyres that you want. You can run full mtb tyres, or do what I did, and converted it to a drop bar 29er with 40C tyres. There are so many cross tyres, hybrid tyres, mtb tyres etc to choose from. I use a cheap hybrid tyre with side knobs to run both road and dirt.









I ended up putting a 26er fork at 460 on it and it worked nicely to make the bike more "road" friendly. No rohloff on it anymore, that went to the new MTB.


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## aBicycle (Jun 13, 2012)

Fatsinglespeeder said:


> Yes, that's what the proponents for 29ers say, but you pay for it with a little higher weight which you might not want on a touring bike because you carry enough weight already. Another consideration is that if you travel to far away places then it will be far easier to find a 26" replacement tyre tyre than a 29er.
> 
> Fine, it's a strong frame that can stand up to the demands of loaded touring.
> 
> ...


No, I mean will the ogre and troll be stable when loaded?


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## Fatsinglespeeder (Jan 24, 2013)

aBicycle said:


> No, I mean will the ogre and troll be stable when loaded?


Yes, absolutely, that's what I meant to say.


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## HelmutHerr (Oct 5, 2012)

I was out on the weekend with about 40kg of gear on the rear rack of the Ogre (Alfine 8). 

Its stability can't be overstated. Feels slower to steer but that's about it. Didn't feel at risk of toppling over even across rough ground and through gates.


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## rifraf (Dec 22, 2012)

aBicycle said:


> How do the ogre handle racks and panniers?


Just gotta get my chain on and brakes done and I should have an idea

The Tubus Cosmo and Nova bolted up real easy and straight forward.
I went with the stainless racks due to having the painted steel versions on a previous bike and disliking the rust where the paint gets scratched.


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## HelmutHerr (Oct 5, 2012)

Lovin' the wasp colour scheme. Or bee. Whatever it is, it's coloured that way as a warning.


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## aBicycle (Jun 13, 2012)

rifraf said:


> Just gotta get my chain on and brakes done and I should have an idea
> 
> The Tubus Cosmo and Nova bolted up real easy and straight forward.
> I went with the stainless racks due to having the painted steel versions on a previous bike and disliking the rust where the paint gets scratched.
> ...


Huh, black is the best color for bikes I think. Silver and black...


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## aBicycle (Jun 13, 2012)

rifraf said:


> I have to wait till my wheels are finished to get the angles lined up level.


How did this go?


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Fatsinglespeeder said:


> ...Another consideration is that if you travel to far away places then it will be far easier to find a 26" replacement tyre tyre than a 29er...


If that's a consideration then you should be riding one of these type of bike. Most common bike type in the 3rd world










And no worry about load carrying ability.

They're also capable of handling most trails


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## aBicycle (Jun 13, 2012)

Who makes those third world bikes anyway?


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## aBicycle (Jun 13, 2012)

rifraf said:


> My suggestion would be to build your dream wheels first. See how you like them in your Cross Check and then determine whether you need the expense of a new bike.
> I'm currently building some 29" wheels with Son28 Disk and Rohloff Disk.
> I'm using Sapim CX-Rays with Velocity Dyad rims. They are wheels I've wanted to build for a long time. I am putting them into a Surly Ogre frame but if I wasnt making my wheels my priority, I'd probably be buying a Co-motion Rohloff Divide.
> If your an on-road rider then pointless putting up with the weight of an off road bike (IMHO only). Saying that I believe the Ogre is a very versatile frame, which is why I bought one. It appears to be the closest I can find for "one bike to rule them all".
> I've only accommodation for one bike so need something that can do everything well enough to satisfy. I believe the Ogre whilst not great at anything, is good enough at everything.


I think with the trailer I now have, that can haul 300lbs of crap, and the loads I carry on the bike, perhaps the cross checks is too flexy, wobbly and weak. I fear I will bust a stay honestly. The ogre/troll are no where near as flexy?


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## Fatsinglespeeder (Jan 24, 2013)

aBicycle said:


> I think with the trailer I now have, that can haul 300lbs of crap, and the loads I carry on the bike, perhaps the cross checks is too flexy, wobbly and weak. I fear I will bust a stay honestly. The ogre/troll are no where near as flexy?


I can't comment much on the Cross Check because I don't have one, but it's certainly not a cargo bike and I wouldn't recommend hauling heavy loads with it.

My Troll isn't flexy at all. I have racks front and rear and I load it up with a week's shopping and it rides perfectly fine. I hardly notice the extra weight.

Prior to that, I did my shopping with an Extrawheel trailer for a few times but didn't like it at all because it was far too flexy -- the bike and trailer wobbled in opposite directions and it was unsafe to ride -- not nice. To be fair, I may have overloaded the trailer but I can't be sure because I didn't weigh it.


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## HelmutHerr (Oct 5, 2012)

Fatsinglespeeder said:


> Prior to that, I did my shopping with an Extrawheel trailer for a few times but didn't like it at all because it was far too flexy -- the bike and trailer wobbled in opposite directions and it was unsafe to ride -- not nice. To be fair, I may have overloaded the trailer but I can't be sure because I didn't weigh it.


That's about the first criticism I've heard of the Extrawheel.

I haven't mucked around with trailers, but that one seems like a simple and clever idea, and a bit more convenient than the long tray type.

Interesting.


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## aBicycle (Jun 13, 2012)

I didn't really notice that much trouble with my trailer even with 300lbs of wood and junk on it.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

You can use a Monkey Bone + OEM2 axle plate on any bike with disc brake tabs for a clean Rohloff setup.

I use this on my Krampus and have used it on other bikes including a 1x1.










My GF's been comutting on a Cross Check with Nexus 8 IGH for a coupe years now. She loves it.










I've an Alfine 11 IGH in an On One Scandal and then in my Krampus before I installed a Rohloff.

You can install an IGH into a Surly with horizontal dropouts no problem at all. They don't have to be "Rohloff" specific.


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## Fatsinglespeeder (Jan 24, 2013)

vikb said:


> You can use a Monkey Bone + OEM2 axle plate on any bike with disc brake tabs for a clean Rohloff setup.
> 
> My GF's been comutting on a Cross Check with Nexus 8 IGH for a coupe years now. She loves it.
> 
> You can install an IGH into a Surly with horizontal dropouts no problem at all. They don't have to be "Rohloff" specific.


You've been quoting me as if I had said something wrong. The Cross Check doesn't have disc brake tabs and thus you can't use a monkey bone, you have to use a torque arm (or a Nexus as you did on your girlfriend's bike).


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Fatsinglespeeder said:


> You've been quoting me as if I had said something wrong. The Cross Check doesn't have disc brake tabs and thus you can't use a monkey bone, you have to use a torque arm (or a Nexus as you did on your girlfriend's bike).


Sorry - I de-quoted you. 

I had the Straggler/Disc Check in mind for an IGH build and mentally added the disc tabs to the Cross Check.


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## Fatsinglespeeder (Jan 24, 2013)

vikb said:


> Sorry - I de-quoted you.
> 
> I had the Straggler/Disc Check in mind for an IGH build and mentally added the disc tabs to the Cross Check.


No problem, we all make mistakes. I used to like your lazyrando blog a lot and I'm sad that you chose to discontinue it.


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## aBicycle (Jun 13, 2012)

When using horizontal dropouts, how hard is it to realign the disk brake and keep the wheel straight while changing a flat on the side of the road on something like a surly troll for example?


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## Fatsinglespeeder (Jan 24, 2013)

It's easy if you use a Surly Tuggnut or something similar. The tuggnut on the drive side adjusts your chain tension to what it was before you removed the wheel and then you just center the wheel and tighten it. Some people use two tuggnuts for this purpose but I think that's overkill. No need to realign the disk brake. You shouldn't get many punctures anyway if you use top quality tyres like Schwalbe Marathon.


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

Fatsinglespeeder said:


> You shouldn't get many punctures anyway if you use top quality tyres like Schwalbe Marathon.


I got a puncture on a marathon a couple months ago. Can't blame the tires though... I don't know what can stand up to a 2.5" roofing nail.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

aBicycle said:


> When using horizontal dropouts, how hard is it to realign the disk brake and keep the wheel straight while changing a flat on the side of the road on something like a surly troll for example?


It's not hard even without a tugnut.

On my Surly bikes that have bolt on IGHs I don't use a tugnut. Reinstalling the wheel after a flat is not a big deal. You may take a few tries to get the chain tension right the first time, but once you get the handle of how to do it there is no problem and you'll get everything buttoned up quickly.

On my Surly with a QR IGH I use tugnuts on both sides. Not to get the wheel straight, but to keep the QR from slipping under power.

- I tried using just a driveside tugnut with a high clamping force Shimano QR and removing the paint on the non-driveside for more friction.
- the non-driveside of the QR would pivot slightly inwards around the driveside that was held in place by the tugnut. This allowed the back of the cog to move slightly closer to the chainring. It would only move a bit than stay in place, but that bike has minimal tire to chainstay clearance so I really want to keep the wheel straight in the dropouts.
- so I added a 2nd tugnut on the non-driveside
- too be fair I was carrying a heavy load on steep singletrack in the mountains touring so the hub experienced some pretty aggressive bursts of power

If I was buying a new IGH for a horizontal dropout bike I would pick a bolt on axle for sure. The tugnuts work fine so it's not a big deal if you already have a IGH with a QR.

If you put the rear disc caliper really close to the rotor you may have to loosen it off to get the wheel out of a Surly horizontal dropout. This takes a second and if I have my flat fixing stuff out I have a multi-tool close at hand. However, since rear braking is not that important most of the time I just position the caliper a bit higher and the wheel can slide out without adjustment. I don't notice any loss of braking power.

Compared to dealing with a flat on a bike with a vertical dropout and a derailleur I don't think my IGH + horizontal dropout bikes are much more time or effort to deal with. Certainly nothing meaningful.

As FSS notes if I was having a lot of flats I would make some changes to my tire or setup to solve the problem.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

BTW - if the source and location of the flat is obvious it's often quite easy to just open the tire at that point with the wheel in the frame and patch the tube. That can be very fast and minimal hassle.


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## aBicycle (Jun 13, 2012)

evandy said:


> I got a puncture on a marathon a couple months ago. Can't blame the tires though... I don't know what can stand up to a 2.5" roofing nail.


Got marathon green guards. Keep getting flats from thorns.


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## Fatsinglespeeder (Jan 24, 2013)

aBicycle said:


> Got marathon green guards. Keep getting flats from thorns.


Well, that means that the green guard doesn't work for your area and you should try something else. I have the Marathon Mondial Double Defense and it works fine for me.

Marathon Mondial HS 428 | Schwalbe North America
EVO-TECHNOLOGY | Schwalbe North America


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## aBicycle (Jun 13, 2012)

What kinda thorns do you have? I have goat heads and these really evil satanic looking weeds that are yellow and have thorn ALLLLLLL over them. They have these evil looking thorn balls all over them too.


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## Fatsinglespeeder (Jan 24, 2013)

Yeah, I heard about goat heads but luckily we don't have them here. We have hawthorns (google "hawthorn thorns" to see some images).

The other thing that works very well for me, apart from Schwalbe Marathons, is WTB Dissent downhill tyres with Intense downhill tubes. The goat heads seem to be rather small and thus tyres and tubes with a lot more rubber on them might help. Many people report that going tubeless also prevents flats (because the tyres are filled with a sealant) but I've never tried it.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Re. Rohloff-specific touring frames, Peter White carries the Tout Terrain Silk road:

Tout Terrain from Peter White Cycles

Thorn in Great Britain makes several compatible models too. There are others, mainly European products. Or you could go custom. I'll bet Gunnar could build you a Rock Tour Rohloff frame that would kick ass.


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## Kbbob (Sep 30, 2013)

aBicycle, i've spent the summer on an Ogre, and will either build a Rohloff for it or for an ECR this winter (I'm intrigued with that 3" stuff). Have 2 sets of wheels for the Ogre, and rarely ride the high pressure 35c streets, so those will go to the wifes new bike. The narrow tires are obviously more efficient on pavement than the stock 2.3, but not as much as I would have thought, (the inertia on those big Exiwolfs is amazing) and most of my rides are mixed up with gravel and rooty single track. 

As for 26 vs 29, well, I've sold the last two 26's in the household, and am leaning to the 29plus of the ECR and Krampus. Don't have plans for third world stuff, though. Stuff that I used to have to finesse and hop through on a 26 just gets rolled over now, no worries.

I'm a big guy, and the Ogre handles loads well. I can flex the frame when I put the boots to it, but loads don't seem to do much. Have hauled up to 100lbs in a trailer, with an extra 20 in a pannier, really didn't notice anything squirrely about it at all. Have not had a full touring bag load on it though.

Did change the stem length and bar from stock. Went to a short stem and a Jones Loop (Surly just did the same for 2014), and found that to be pretty versatile for position.

Hope you are having as much fun with this stuff as I am, and enjoy your decision!


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## aBicycle (Jun 13, 2012)

Trailer weight isn't the same as rack weight. Towed 300lbs on a trailer using a cross check once. Wasn't wobbly at all. Put more than 30lbs in the pannier, and whoops, you gots da wobbles.


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## Kbbob (Sep 30, 2013)

Good point, but past experience on other bikes has taught that stability with bags matters a lot on how they are distributed. I've spent enough time on it to not worry about loading the Ogre with more than I would want to carry.


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