# Vassago Verhauen



## Patch (Aug 30, 2006)

Thanking of upgrading my old medium Jabberwocky to a new large for Verhauen. Does anybody have pictures of the newest generation Verhauen in a large or med so I can compare? 
thx


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

do you want the photos of mtbr users who have Vehauens that are still in one piece, or two pieces? hopefully they have resolved that.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

mack_turtle said:


> do you want the photos of mtbr users who have Vehauens that are still in one piece, or two pieces? hopefully they have resolved that.


I laughed and cried at this comment.


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## Patch (Aug 30, 2006)

I have seen one locally they did that and yes it’s a concern. I was hoping to just get a new Jabberwocky keep getting delayed and delayed and delayed…
Any other recommendations? Surly Krampus how well will it handle trail riding and drops with a 120 -130 mm fork? Canfield nimble nine?


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## Patch (Aug 30, 2006)

Forgot to mention currently have a aluminum Santa Cruz chameleon which replaced a transition 29 Trans Am both set up single speed plus my original Jabberwocky


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

There are a lot of frames in the 120-130 range if you look through the 2020 SS frame thread on here. The Nimble 9 is built around a 150 fork, not 120-130. I'd personally go with an Esker Japhy or Surly Karate Monkey if you want a 130ish bike. 

When the new Jabberwocky comes out, maybe it will be better than the older versions. Not sure if they are switching builders since there's been a lapse in time with that model. My problem with Vassago was less with the fact that I broke their frame (it happens) and more with how awful their customer service is. I'm a very easy going customer to have, but when you yank me around for 3 months while I am bikeless I will never buy from you again.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

It's not a VerHauen, but here's my medium Optimus which shares the same geo. 
They're the same bike, one is Ti, one is steel.
I'm 5'9", average proportions, on a medium. 50mm stem
With a 120mm fork:









Slightly older pic with a (borrowed) 140mm fork:









Edit: that's a OneUp 210 dropper.

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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Chumba Sendero if you have the $$.


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## Patch (Aug 30, 2006)

thanks for the replies. The Karate Monkey has a slack 71.5 seat angle sagged and not a lot of bb drop. My Chameleon has a slack SA too and would like something steeper. I like the longer the chainstays and bb drop on the Vassago and think it contributes a lot to how it rides. Impetus, your Optimus ti looks great with the fox 34 and the medium is perfectly proportioned but pricing is getting close to custom like a Walt works and would need to try a large before committing. That and issues like Single Speed Steven mentioned. I've been riding and following Vassago since 2009 and the original owner Kris. I'd buy a 600-700 jabber just to try the large (and burlier fork than float 32). Where are all the used Jabberwockys with 44mm head tubes? also looking at new honzo st, unit x and even checked with Chromag to see if any ss are in the future. Every time I see this Walt Works I think this looks like fun, long chainstays and all.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

I know you probably think we are just being haters, but the Jabbers with 44mm headtubes are probably not around because most of them broke. I personally broke one, and knew of a couple others in the area I lived that broke them also. I'm not sure if I still have pics or if they are still posted in an old thread here, but the welds were some of the worst I have ever seen (which is where it broke). I really think they picked an awful builder for those frames and they just weren't built to last.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Here you go. This is probably the reason you can't find any used Jabbers. This was the last model year they made, the 29+ version.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Check your frame welds, please!!


These are pictures of a frame failure I recently had on my Vassago Verhauen. They may not be indicative of this frame but it did occur and I want others to know. The break happened at a very low speed and I will never know why it didn't break a million other times while riding through rough...




www.mtbr.com


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Patch said:


> Where are all the used Jabberwockys with 44mm head tubes?


the headtube/ top tube weld started to crack on mine after a year. I mailed it back to Vassago and they replaced the top tube. they gave it a nice paintjob too. when I got it back, I immediately sold it with full disclosure of it's previous condition and bought a KM.

keep in mind that, if you want a bike with longer chainstays, most are listed at the shortest possible position. there's nothing stopping you from pushing the axle back and you usually have 2cm or so of adjustment.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Patch said:


> <snip>pricing is getting close to custom like a Walt works and would need to try a large before committing. That and issues like Single Speed Steven mentioned. I've been riding and following Vassago since 2009 and the original owner Kris. I'd buy a 600-700 jabber just to try the large (and burlier fork than float 32). Where are all the used Jabberwockys with 44mm head tubes? also looking at new honzo st, unit x and even checked with Chromag to see if any ss are in the future. Every time I see this Walt Works I think this looks like fun, long chainstays and all.


I guess if you wanna compare a WW to an OpTi, yeah they're close. And custom has definite appeals if no one is offering the geometry or design package you want.
That said- A Waltworks is $2200 to start, an Optimus/Radimus/Moose is under 2k. the VerHauen is 1300, so if you're comparing steel to steel and like the Vassago geometry it's not even close.
I'm not trying to sell you on titanium- I posted my OpTi _solely_ because I interpreted your original post as wanting to see a mock-up of what a medium Vassago might look like. Mine is the titanium version of the VerHauen, so paint it some color (not raw ti) and there you go.

FWIW- my buddy rides a large Mooseknuckle. He's 6'1". I've ridden his bike, it felt too big for me.

Without getting overly 'fanboy'- there is really only a small period of time where Vassagos failed- Tom has acknowledged and addressed this (admittedly not to everyone's satisfaction). I'm sure it's tough being such a small operation, and he's a pretty hands-on guy. To my understanding, that fiasco is the reason there were only titanium bikes is almost entirely because his steel builder wasn't up to snuff and he had to completely revamp.

I'm not defending- just sharing what I've come to believe based on conversations.



SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I know you probably think we are just being haters, but the Jabbers with 44mm headtubes are probably not around because most of them broke. I personally broke one, and knew of a couple others in the area I lived that broke them also. I'm not sure if I still have pics or if they are still posted in an old thread here, but the welds were some of the worst I have ever seen (which is where it broke). I really think they picked an awful builder for those frames and they just weren't built to last.


I think your second point clarifies the first-

Whoever built the 2016 Jabberwockys did a bad job. I cracked one after about 1000 miles. Interestingly, It was replaced with a Verhauen (2017) that I rode right about 3k miles and was still in great shape when I sold it after buying the Optimus.
I don't think it's a headtube problem, or even a "steel Vassago" problem. I think it was a crappy Jabberwocky welder that the Verhauen doesn't seem to suffer from.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Impetus said:


> I think your second point clarifies the first-
> 
> Whoever built the 2016 Jabberwockys did a bad job. I cracked one after about 1000 miles. Interestingly, It was replaced with a Verhauen (2017) that I rode right about 3k miles and was still in great shape when I sold it after buying the Optimus.
> I don't think it's a headtube problem, or even a "steel Vassago" problem. I think it was a crappy Jabberwocky welder that the Verhauen doesn't seem to suffer from.


I completely understand, and like I said in my first post here I don't get too banged up over broken steel hardtails. It happens, and I have broken other frames from other brands just the same. My problem has always been with their customer service. I get it, he's a small operation and that's awesome. I love supporting small business like that. When you ignore my emails and calls for weeks at a time and leave me bikeless for upwards of 3 months (which is the better part of the riding season where I used to live) then I am not going to have good things to say about your company. It sucks, I get it that it's hard being a one man show. If he can't handle it on his own and that's the best he can do with his customer service, then he should consider hiring someone to help out.

I will also throw out there that at the end of the whole fiasco, I wasn't even happy with how things came out for me. I shipped the broken frame back expecting to get a replacement, and they didn't even have any replacements. They ended up sending me a Fisticuff gravel frame, for which I had little use. I still ended up having to buy another frame from another company so I had a mountain bike.

Maybe I just expect too much out of warranty claims, but at a bare minimum I was hoping for a little urgency from a company that touts being rider owned. How would they feel being off their bike for months on end because of a broken frame that they couldn't get a response about?


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

@SingleSpeedSteven Yeah man, that's a raw deal. I'd be salty too. I don't blame you for your opinion.
It's such a same, I really feel like Vassago is hamstringing itself by the lackluster customer service.


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## jct (Mar 26, 2004)

i also cracked the latest iteration Jabber at the TT and HT weld. I sent it back last December and it should be finished by now. I pinged tom yesterday to get an update. i'll probably keep it...TBD...but if anyone interesting in a large with a Ti ODIS fork let me know!


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## Patch (Aug 30, 2006)

thanks Impetus. I don't even know if I want a new med or large. The cheap steel of the old V2 jabber ( no triangle gusset under the down tube) had held up to untold thousands of miles, drops, winters etc. and would order a large if available. Would love to have a ti hardtail like yours or custom steel but need to be more settled on geo and fit before spending that much. Also budgeted 6k for new full suspension bike with the Evil Offering current at the top of the list. Part of me thinks an e-bike would be a great contrast to a single speed which would still end up getting most of the ride time. Too much time to think with nothing in stock to buy

Might have been the first one in and last on out on Vassago in my area so nothing to try on for fit. I have a friend that had a medium VerHauen but it failed at the head tube and he's a good 70 80 pounds lighter. He replaced with Honzo St. here's a link for the WW in case anyone is interested: Personal Rides: Andrew's Custom Waltworks V2 (nsmb.com) geo is definitely different


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Patch said:


> thanks Impetus. I don't even know if I want a new med or large. The cheap steel of the old V2 jabber ( no triangle gusset under the down tube) had held up to untold thousands of miles, drops, winters etc. and would order a large if available. Would love to have a ti hardtail like yours or custom steel but need to be more settled on geo and fit before spending that much. Also budgeted 6k for new full suspension bike with the Evil Offering current at the top of the list. Part of me thinks an e-bike would be a great contrast to a single speed which would still end up getting most of the ride time. Too much time to think with nothing in stock to buy
> 
> Might have been the first one in and last on out on Vassago in my area so nothing to try on for fit. I have a friend that had a medium VerHauen but it failed at the head tube and he's a good 70 80 pounds lighter. He replaced with Honzo St. here's a link for the WW in case anyone is interested: Personal Rides: Andrew's Custom Waltworks V2 (nsmb.com) geo is definitely different


The Vassago geometry hasn't radically changed, it's really more been 'massaged' or evolved over time. If you're happy on your current frame size, I'd feel safe going with the same size. It'll feel much the same but more 'modern'. 
There's no need to go custom unless what you want doesn't actually exist; then obviously that's the way to go. At this point _someone_ probably makes frame geo that agrees with you unless you're 6'6", like my buddy (he rides an XXL Santa Cruz)

Honestly, I don't advocate that "ti is better". It's damn expensive. I chose ti because of a boyhood crush on a titanium Moots that I borrowed from a mentor for half a race season in the 90's, and that I'm a bike-tart who hates scratches and chips. Ti doesn't chip.

Even as I was handing over my credit card, I questioned if I should have gone with a new VerHauen. Ti won out because it was in-stock and deeply discounted on a Black-Friday deal. I had a Canfield N9 with a DVO fork _in the cart_ for pre-order, along with a steel RSD middlechild, but was too impatient to wait for the April/May delivery for either. I had my Optimus in-hand 8 days after I paid. the perks of living in Phoenix I guess.


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## 2:01 (May 10, 2010)

I purchased my Jabber way back in 2008. Was a good bike. Then the BF deal on the Optimus was too good to pass up.

I'd also suggest sticking with the same size. If medium works for you now, same will work with the modern geo.

For what it's worth, Tom has been good about communicating with me. I do understand with a small operation, this will be hit and miss. Gotta go in with that expectation.

@Impetus - what does your Optimus weigh? I'm still building mine up. Probably will go PNW dropper (170mm).


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

2:01 said:


> @Impetus - what does your Optimus weigh? I'm still building mine up. Probably will go PNW dropper (170mm).


I don't weigh bikes. Sorry.

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## Pedlin' Slow (Sep 9, 2009)

My Verhauen came with an adjustable head tube angle. Too bad once it was used the bike was unrideable. My experience with the warranty was less than satisfactory. These frames are simply poorly welded. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Pedlin' Slow said:


> My Verhauen came with an adjustable head tube angle. Too bad once it was used the bike was unrideable. My experience with the warranty was less than satisfactory. These frames are simply poorly welded. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> View attachment 1916781


My god... glad you're still alive. Did the headtube completely separate while you were riding? That looks seriously dangerous.


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## Patch (Aug 30, 2006)

this is my concern with the Verhauen. Was hoping the cheaper chromoly Jabberwocky (should they ever become available again) will be stronger. My friend had the same failure while riding and replaced it with a honzo st, lucky he didn't get hurt. Reconsidering the Esker Japhy. The 66 HA and 75 SA with 30% sag on 120mm fork might be a little too slack. Static would be around 65/74. The new Honzo is 66/76 static with 140mm fork . The sagged seat angle is getting pretty steep for a hardtail. Canfield numbers seem a little off too. 66/77 static with 150mm fork, sagged around 67-68 with 78+ SA. I can see these SA number on a full suspension bike where the rear sags as well.


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## Pedlin' Slow (Sep 9, 2009)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> My god... glad you're still alive. Did the headtube completely separate while you were riding? That looks seriously dangerous.


Unbelievably it happen when I pulled the front end over a large rock and it broke when the wheel touched back down. One in a million that it did not happen when I was moving quickly or down a technical descent. I was still bruised and cracked my helmet when I face planted. Vassago offered a replacement frame, "Hell No" and I ended up getting half my money back. Lesson learned. He had a bad couple of years and I won't touch one of his frames again. Many happy riders out there, but they are the ones with frames that are still welded together. But there are enough out there with broken frames that the word it getting around.


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## BrodieNorth (Jan 21, 2009)

Pedlin' Slow said:


> He had a bad couple of years and I won't touch one of his frames again.


What year was your frame?


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Pedlin' Slow said:


> Unbelievably it happen when I pulled the front end over a large rock and it broke when the wheel touched back down. One in a million that it did not happen when I was moving quickly or down a technical descent. I was still bruised and cracked my helmet when I face planted. Vassago offered a replacement frame, "Hell No" and I ended up getting half my money back. Lesson learned. He had a bad couple of years and I won't touch one of his frames again. Many happy riders out there, but they are the ones with frames that are still welded together. But there are enough out there with broken frames that the word it getting around.


I live in Phoenix and see his ti frames all over the place out here. I'm in the same boat as you. They look pretty but I wouldn't trust one.


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## Pedlin' Slow (Sep 9, 2009)

I believe it is a 2017 because he had to wait for it to come in before he could ship to me. The frame broke in December of 18'. Lasted a year and a half.


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

Broken frames, horrible customer service, head-scratching size/geo offerings...I'm surprised Vassago is still around. That said, I can't ever recall seeing any of their ti frames break.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Ryder1 said:


> Broken frames, horrible customer service, head-scratching size/geo offerings...I'm surprised Vassago is still around. That said, I can't ever recall seeing any of their ti frames break.


There are a few stories in the Vassago sub forum if you dig. Definitely sounds like it was more prevalent in the steel frames though.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I live in Phoenix and see his ti frames all over the place out here. I'm in the same boat as you. They look pretty but I wouldn't trust one.





Ryder1 said:


> Broken frames, horrible customer service, head-scratching size/geo offerings...I'm surprised Vassago is still around. That said, I can't ever recall seeing any of their ti frames break.





SingleSpeedSteven said:


> There are a few stories in the Vassago sub forum if you dig. Definitely sounds like it was more prevalent in the steel frames though.


The Ti frames seem to have much less of an issue with breakage. I know if a couple, but they're all size Large. Maybe the toptube and downtube being welded together is enough reinforcement to prevent failure. 
I've always wished my medium had a longer head tube (I love me some tall stack) but not at the expense of possible failure.

I would agree that the steel ones are much more of a concern. I had a 17 Verhauen that I rode for 3 years that never cracked. I just sold it to a guy to use as a bikepacking rig.


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

Impetus said:


> I've always wished my medium had a longer head tube (I love me some tall stack) but not at the expense of possible failure.


The 2021 VerHauen and Optimus ti apparently have longer head tubes, on at least some of the sizes. The XL has a 140mm head tube (up from 120mm). Since I'm all legs, I applaud this change. But the seat tube on the XL (490mm reach) is up to 22" (from 19.5") which I struggle to understand. Bump it up to 20 or 20.5, ok, maybe 21 at most, but 22?


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Ryder1 said:


> The 2021 VerHauen and Optimus ti apparently have longer head tubes, on at least some of the sizes. The XL has a 140mm head tube (up from 120mm). Since I'm all legs, I applaud this change. But the seat tube on the XL (490mm reach) is up to 22" (from 19.5") which I struggle to understand. Bump it up to 20 or 20.5, ok, maybe 21 at most, but 22?


my medium 2021 OpTi has a 100mm headtube, same as the 2017 VH I had. I would have been 100% fine with a 120.
I ended up strapping a 140 fork to it to get the bars where I wanted them.

I'm with you on the seat tube thing. Long droppers are so good.
I don't always understand some of the geometry decisions that Vassago makes for their bikes.

Half reason I got rid of my VH was the seattube- it was 27.2; limiting dropper options to 100mm of drop. The huge front triangle made it a kickass bikebacking rig though. Big frame bag.
My OpTi has room for a 210mm dropper.
its basically a dirt jumper with the seat down.


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## garcia (Apr 10, 2008)

Patch said:


> Forgot to mention currently have a aluminum Santa Cruz chameleon which replaced a transition 29 Trans Am both set up single speed plus my original Jabberwocky


I didn't read the whole thread, but as a steel guy, I have an al Chameleon SS myself, and LOVE it. I still want a steel or Ti SS, but can't afford it, and really can't fault the chameleon for anything. It rides great, looks great, what more do I REALLY need?


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## SS Mukluk (Oct 1, 2015)

This post is freaking me out. I purchased my black VerHauen back on 8/23/2019, do I need to be concerned? This is the first time I'm reading about these issues. I agree Tom can be difficult to reach sometimes, but I love how this bike handles. I did have an issue when I bought the kit, the brake mount was welded incorrectly on the Odis fork, and the caliper would not line up with the rotor. I sent it back for a credit and bought an Exotic carbon fork instead because Tom would never admit that the fork was poorly welded (blaming my local bike shop for not knowing how to install brakes).


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

SS Mukluk said:


> This post is freaking me out. I purchased my black VerHauen back on 8/23/2019, do I need to be concerned? This is the first time I'm reading about these issues. I agree Tom can be difficult to reach sometimes, but I love how this bike handles. I did have an issue when I bought the kit, the brake mount was welded incorrectly on the Odis fork, and the caliper would not line up with the rotor. I sent it back for a credit and bought an Exotic carbon fork instead because Tom would never admit that the fork was poorly welded (blaming my local bike shop for not knowing how to install brakes).


Pretty sure the frames that failed were much earlier production runs than 2019. I've seen custom frames from very well known & respected fabricators fail similarly, these things do happen, unfortunately.

I didn't let it prevent me from building this up from a 2020 Verhauen frame. Loving the bike so far.










Rockshox RS1 120mm
Roval Control SL front wheel w/SRAM XO predictive steering hub
BTLOS AS25 w/DT Swiss 240S rear wheel borrowed from my Orbea Oiz
Vittoria Barzo 2.35 front & rear
SLX 7100 ispec II m/c-lever assemblies
XT 8000 calipers
XT 8120 crank
XT 8100 pedals
Wolftooth/King Morse ti cages
Wolftooth elliptical chainring
Endless Bike Kickass Cog
Bikeyoke Revive 125mm drooper
Syntace Megaforce 2 50mm stem
SQLabs 311 carbon 12degree sweep 730mm bar
SQLabs 611 Ergowave Active saddle


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## SS Mukluk (Oct 1, 2015)

redwarrior said:


> Pretty sure the frames that failed were much earlier production runs than 2019. I've seen custom frames from very well known & respected fabricators fail similarly, these things do happen, unfortunately.
> 
> I didn't let it prevent me from building this up from a 2020 Verhauen frame. Loving the bike so far.
> 
> ...


Nice build, I'll try to post up my bike over the weekend. I did check all of the welds, and so far it looks good. Thanks for the post, I feel better now


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## SS Mukluk (Oct 1, 2015)

My black beauty monster truck! 
Medium frame
Exotic carbon boost fork
X0 carbon cranks
Wolftooth 32t oval chainring
Wolftooth 20t cog
KMC X8 chain
SRAM Guide RS brakes
Thomson bar 800mm and set back seat post
WTB saddle
WTB i45 rims with Origin8 hubs
Maxxis Minion DHRII 29 x 3 front and rear
ESI chunky grips sans end caps


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## one incredible donkey (Jul 19, 2007)

I've got an XL frame in the queue with Tom right now to be built and I can't wait. I've been in a Jabberwocky for the last decade and I can't wait to get on a modern single speed.


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## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

Just ordered a XL, can anyone confirm it is now 22” seat tube? Website says 19.5?


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## Pauldotcom (Aug 15, 2010)

I just bought a Optimus Ti Medium (replace my Pivot SS). Anyhow, I'm struggling with the fork decision. They say it's made for 120mm and 44mm rake. I kinda want a 130mm and found a great priced fox - but it's 51mm rake... Any experience with bigger forks on these things>? Thanks


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I have a 51offset 140mm Fox 36 and a -2* angle set on my OpTi. It’s been that way since I built it up over a year ago. I love it and have zero plans to lose either the headset or the fork.









my Ripmo has a 44 offset 36 (at 170mm) and I’ve tried the uppers (at 140) on the OpTi. I personally preferred the 51 offset on the shorter travel bike; and thought the 44os is better on the 170.
Edit to add: 
The OpTi has a pretty long reach and good stack and can be a darn capable and fun hard tail with some extra travel and a slacker HTA.


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## Pauldotcom (Aug 15, 2010)

Sweet! I went with 130mm right in the middle! Your bike looks sweet!


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