# eMTB in Northen CA



## AD (Feb 20, 2009)

Have you ridden one?
What did you think?


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## Joe_510 (May 19, 2014)

Mods, close it up.


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## AD (Feb 20, 2009)

seems to be a lot of opinion from folk who haven't ridden one. Keen to know what people's thoughts are who have ridden them


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## Sid Duffman (Oct 5, 2015)

AD said:


> seems to be a lot of opinion from folk who haven't ridden one. Keen to know what people's thoughts are who have ridden them


I think most people's objections to eMTBs are not related to ride quality, but potential political issues. So I don't think someone needs to have ridden one to have an opinion in that context.

That said, I'd love to try one out and see how it handles. After doing a 3+ hour climb earlier this week, I think they could be pretty awesome on trails where motos are permitted.


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## Arctic Pride (Sep 24, 2010)

I've ridden one, I see the appeal. While it'll make you a fire road all star it doesn't give you the magical ability to ride technical terrain. The industry clearly is being pushed that way, the e-segments at shows have exploded.


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## JulioBTLL (Dec 12, 2008)

*E-bike curious*

I am very curious about e-bike and can see getting one in a few years. My hip is funky from doing dumb stuff in my 20s, some little heart issues and now my favorite rides knock me out of commission for a week or more. The rides I love in Auburn and Sierras have become hellish vision quests that take a week or more to recover. Riding more isn't going to get me to be a better climber.

My love of riding comes from the act of exploring wild places. I think an e-bike will allow me to continue to explore the wild places here in Nor-cal without exploding my heart or being an invalid for a week

As for access issues
Don't really care. I've been poaching trails 
for nearly 2 decades and never had any issues. As far I can tell rangers are mythical beings that only live near San Francisco.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

I have zero issues with them. 90% of my riding is on non-designated trails anyways, so it’s equally as legal to be riding them on ebikes.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Why is the "have you ridden one" question so all-important? I have ridden one. I agree they're fun. They are also not allowed where I ride and I support that. 

It's a ridiculous question.

The only way I would support them locally, is as an accommodation for someone with a disability.


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## hurtssogood (Jul 21, 2008)

chuckha62 said:


> The only way I would support them locally, is as an accommodation for someone with a disability.


I've heard this before, and while I'm ok with the intent of it, it opens a whole other can of worms. For one, I can't really think of any disability other than laziness that would allow someone to ride a pedal assist electric motor bike but not a regular bike. And if that is allowed, will wheelchairs or those scooters that fat people ride around WalMart be allowed? Will our trails need to be ADA compliant?
Yeah, I get the whole equal access thing, but not everyone can do everything. I've neglected my health for the past five decades, so now I weigh 350 lbs, I'm diabetic, and I've got COPD. But my family is hiking Half Dome, so it's cool if I just take a helicopter to meet them at the top, right?
There needs to be a line. Motor/no motor is a fine line.


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## Bakudan (May 19, 2011)

No. Not interested unless I ever have a physical condition where I cannot ride an analog bike.


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## AD (Feb 20, 2009)

cause you might see things differently if you have ridden one.

What about someone that's neglected their health decide to fix it? could be a safe way to find their love for cycling again.



chuckha62 said:


> Why is the "have you ridden one" question so all-important? I have ridden one. I agree they're fun. They are also not allowed where I ride and I support that.
> 
> It's a ridiculous question.
> 
> The only way I would support them locally, is as an accommodation for someone with a disability.


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## redmr2_man (Jun 10, 2008)

I've ridden them. I like them, especially for commuter purposes.

Relevant:

https://jalopnik.com/the-fly-free-smart-is-the-awesome-looking-electric-moto-1829065918


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

hurtssogood said:


> I've heard this before, and while I'm ok with the intent of it, it opens a whole other can of worms. For one, I can't really think of any disability other than laziness that would allow someone to ride a pedal assist electric motor bike but not a regular bike. And if that is allowed, will wheelchairs or those scooters that fat people ride around WalMart be allowed? Will our trails need to be ADA compliant?
> Yeah, I get the whole equal access thing, but not everyone can do everything. I've neglected my health for the past five decades, so now I weigh 350 lbs, I'm diabetic, and I've got COPD. But my family is hiking Half Dome, so it's cool if I just take a helicopter to meet them at the top, right?
> There needs to be a line. Motor/no motor is a fine line.


I don't disagree, but I have evolved my stance a little, I guess.


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## DH40 (Jan 14, 2004)

I was looking at the Who's Registered list for the Mammoth Kamikaze games coming up and both Troy Lee (of helmet/gear fame) and his wife are singed up for both the eDuro and Electric Boogaloo races. He used to sandbag in the Sport Class DH back in the day. I guess it's more fun to ride with the wife on mountain mopeds.....


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

DH40 said:


> I was looking at the Who's Registered list for the Mammoth Kamikaze games coming up and both Troy Lee (of helmet/gear fame) and his wife are singed up for both the eDuro and Electric Boogaloo races. He used to sandbag in the Sport Class DH back in the day. I guess it's more fun to ride with the wife on mountain mopeds.....


i heard he has some very serious health issues now.


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## DH40 (Jan 14, 2004)

fc said:


> i heard he has some very serious health issues now.


Well then I commend him for powering through! I'm just still stung that a man of his wealth and stature was beating me in back in 2004 at the US World Champs. I wish him nothing but the best! Healing vibes ))))))))))((((((((((( as they say.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

AD said:


> seems to be a lot of opinion from folk who haven't ridden one. Keen to know what people's thoughts are who have ridden them


I don't rob liquor stores, but I am against that.


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## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

I love to ride all kinds of bikes and have raced virtually every type of bike there is, except an eBike, but that day is coming.

They are super fun! I have about 500 miles on a KHS 6555+ 2019 model. I love to pedal uphill on an rBike(regular bike), but the eBike makes uphills feel like downhills. Technical trails going up on the eBike often requires braking into turns and many times the use of berms due to the increased speed going up. This adds to the technicality of the ride and for me the enjoyment.

I sell conversion kits as well as the factory bike from KHS. Some kits out there have no place on a mtb trail, but the shimano steps system on the KHS is a different beast. My KHS only adds 250 watts of power at maximum output (this is pretty standard), add that to the 150-200watts I can produce and the bike allows me to ride the same speed I did when I was 20 years younger. No more damage is caused by me to the trails than what a 20 year old stud racer who can average 12-14 mph on the trail would cause. I would even suggest less damage caused by the ebike due to the smoother power transmission and heavier chassis that keep the tires on the ground.

As for "not getting a workout", that is simply not true. I can go out and ride my eBike hard and fast (12-14 mph trail average) and get a great workout with a high heart rate and tired legs when I get home. I can also ride the bike easy (6-8 mph average) and feel like I didn't really go out for the day. Just pedal along and the motor kicks in when the road tilts up enough to keep you out of the red and full of smiles for the downhills. 

The modern eBike with a torque sensor does not just give you power on demand, there is no throttle and if you don't pedal hard, it doesn't give you back much more than is needed to propel the extra weight of the bicycle. Speaking of weight, the KHS bike weights 49lbs and has 150mm front and 140mm rear travel. I have ridden it anywhere my DH ride can go without worries. I actually think it jumps better because of the low weight positioning. 

I love all bikes and anyone who has a quiver of rides should consider adding an eBike to the mix. If you are in the market, find a shop that has experience and various bikes to try out. They are not all the same!

Also check with your local trails in your area and verify that they are welcome. The Class I bike I ride is legal to ride anywhere in the state of California that a regular bicycle is allowed. That is of course unless a local municipality has passed an ordinance that says otherwise.

Cheers and enjoy the ride,

-Mike


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2018)

AD said:


> Have you ridden one?
> What did you think?


I need one to keep up with you :sad::bluefrown::sad:


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

AD said:


> Have you ridden one?
> What did you think?


Brave thread you started here! Excuse me while I put on my nomex undies ... ;-)

+1100 miles on my Trek Powerfly. It helps me rehab a new knee, and enjoy more downhills/day. My motos & dirtbikes are NOT happy with this new distraction.

If you really enjoy riding dirt, but can't climb for whatever reason, eMTBs are worth the HUGE entry cost. To me anyway.

Any specific Qs?

Catfish ...


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## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

I have 350 miles on mine in about 8-weeks with it. It got me back into riding. I live part time in the Bay Area and part time in South Lake Tahoe. With the eMTB I'm motivated to make the typical climbs that are necessary in both places.

Negatives mostly have to do with attitudes that I encounter now and again. I've found that it's better not to even mention where I ride because someone always claims eBikes are not allowed there. It's a lot of work to research regulations to make sure you are within the law. It's hard riding with other non eBike riders because you end up waiting a lot (on the uphills at least), so the least capable rider gets it, which means not me. Just know that that is what you are signing up for as an eMTB owner. If you have a riding style/location that works with those limitations then it can be a game changer.


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## fred-da-trog (Oct 28, 2003)

Yes, I have demoed several. I think as a person ages, or has medical issues they should be allowed anywhere an acoustic bike is allowed. I ride alone now as to not hold up the group. I ride mostly back country and would prefer riding buddies when I finally take my last drop.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fred-da-trog said:


> Yes, I have demoed several. I think as a person ages, or has medical issues they should be allowed anywhere an acoustic bike is allowed.


Acoustic bike?


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## brownpownow (Jul 19, 2018)

TheBikeStore said:


> The Class I bike I ride is legal to ride anywhere in the state of California that a regular bicycle is allowed. That is of course unless a local municipality has passed an ordinance that says otherwise.


I can't tell if you're being disingenuous or simply sloppy.

Motor bicycles are not legal to ride in California on many trails where a normal bicycle is allowed, regardless of what a local municipality has to say. Those would be trails that are on Federal land managed by the USFS, National park land, BLM, etc. because they are considered motor vehicles.


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> Acoustic bike?


Acoustic=analog=bicycle. 🚲


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## brownpownow (Jul 19, 2018)

notb said:


> I have 350 miles on mine in about 8-weeks with it. It got me back into riding. I live part time in the Bay Area and part time in South Lake Tahoe. With the eMTB I'm motivated to make the typical climbs that are necessary in both places.
> 
> Negatives mostly have to do with attitudes that I encounter now and again. I've found that it's better not to even mention where I ride because someone always claims eBikes are not allowed there. It's a lot of work to research regulations to make sure you are within the law.


Yeah, when you tell folks about your motor bicycle "advocacy" efforts with MidPen and you naively get excited by the bland platitudes of staff ("he said the board is always interested in public input, so the more people that show up and show support the more likely it is that change will happen.") folks that have been mountain biking around here for more eight weeks will tend to chuckle a bit.

http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/e-bike-advocacy-bay-area-california-1086459.html


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

https://www.openspace.org/sites/default/files/Policy_4.10_Other_Power-Driven_Mobility_Devices.pdf


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## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

brownpownow said:


> Yeah, when you tell folks about your motor bicycle "advocacy" efforts with MidPen and you naively get excited by the bland platitudes of staff ("he said the board is always interested in public input, so the more people that show up and show support the more likely it is that change will happen.") folks that have been mountain biking around here for more eight weeks will tend to chuckle a bit.
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/e-bike-advocacy-bay-area-california-1086459.html


Yup, that's the attitude I'm talking about. You don't know anything about me but because I made the effort to promote eBike advocacy I've only been riding for 8 weeks. HaHaHaHaHa...

I'll continue to work for eBike access, but for the OP, I'm referring to some attitudes on the trail. When I'm out riding, about 1 person a day feels the need to make negative comments. Everyone else either doesn't care or asks me all kinds of questions and is stoked to try it out.


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## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

diskus said:


> https://www.openspace.org/sites/default/files/Policy_4.10_Other_Power-Driven_Mobility_Devices.pdf


Sorry, what is your point?


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## hurtssogood (Jul 21, 2008)

fred-da-trog said:


> Yes, I have demoed several. I think as a person ages, or has medical issues they should be allowed anywhere an acoustic bike is allowed. I ride alone now as to not hold up the group. I ride mostly back country and would prefer riding buddies when I finally take my last drop.


So what should the age cutoff be? Shouldn't matter, because everyone says you get the same workout (or better!) on a motorized bike. And what medical issues qualify? Will it be like the old medical weed days when all you have to do is tell the doc you can't sleep without riding a motor bike first? And there are trails you can ride a motor bike on right now, same trails that allow other motorized vehicles.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

notb said:


> I have 350 miles on mine in about 8-weeks with it. It got me back into riding. I live part time in the Bay Area and part time in South Lake Tahoe. With the eMTB I'm motivated to make the typical climbs that are necessary in both places.
> 
> Negatives mostly have to do with attitudes that I encounter now and again. I've found that it's better not to even mention where I ride because someone always claims eBikes are not allowed there. It's a lot of work to research regulations to make sure you are within the law. It's hard riding with other non eBike riders because you end up waiting a lot (on the uphills at least), so the least capable rider gets it, which means not me. Just know that that is what you are signing up for as an eMTB owner. If you have a riding style/location that works with those limitations then it can be a game changer.


Thanks for the honesty. This actually contradicts what a lot of the ebikers say, that it's a bicycle experience with just a little help getting up the hills. If this is truly all that emtbrs are looking for, they should push for a emtbr class that gives an experience closer to a mountain bike rather than a motorized bike. Not sure just where the numbers would fall but maybe 100W max and 6-8 mph cut-off. This would allow them to participate on the trails much more like a bicycle, a lot less concern about closing speed and passing on tight, twisty trails. The elderly and disabled would still get the assistance they need. One ebiker on here, Gutch, has said that the European cut-off of 15.5 mph is "too slow". We've seen ebikers talk about "uphill flow"; that's not a bicycle experience. And at least to me, 350 miles in about 8-weeks, especially for someone who recently got back into riding, is a lot. Just seems like an emtb is more of a motor experience than a bicycle experience with a little help.


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## brownpownow (Jul 19, 2018)

notb said:


> Yup, that's the attitude I'm talking about. You don't know anything about me but because I made the effort to promote eBike advocacy I've only been riding for 8 weeks. HaHaHaHaHa...


No, my assumption wasn't because of your "effort to promote eBike advocacy" rather my assumption was based upon your lack of understanding about the riding situation here in the Bay Area - coupled with your self-professed love of your reflectors and kickstand. Add to that the fact that your wheel reflectors haven't broken off yet due to riding...


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## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

brownpownow said:


> No, my assumption wasn't because of your "effort to promote eBike advocacy" rather my assumption was based upon your lack of understanding about the riding situation here in the Bay Area - coupled with your self-professed love of your reflectors and kickstand. Add to that the fact that your wheel reflectors haven't broken off yet due to riding...
> 
> View attachment 1216625


I can't help you with your problem. Good luck.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

I was riding up a massive hill this weekend. About a mile into it and just in the pain zone, a dude who had to be in his 60s and clearly not in any better shape than me sped by going no less than 15 miles an hour with his legs barely turning and this hill was pretty freakin steep. I never once thought, "I want that", I just thought, "Don't ever let anyone tell me these are anything other than a motorized vehicle."


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## Sean Allan (May 4, 2005)

notb said:


> I can't help you with your problem. Good luck.


Just curious. Why the E-mtb? You don't look out of shape, or at least you don't look like being in shape to ride a normal bike would be a problem. You're certainly thinner than the majority of posters on this thread I would guess. Not judging, just curious.


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## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

Sean Allan said:


> Just curious. Why the E-mtb? You don't look out of shape, or at least you don't look like being in shape to ride a normal bike would be a problem. You're certainly thinner than the majority of posters on this thread I would guess. Not judging, just curious.


I've been type 1 insulin dependent diabetic for 38 years, on an insulin pump with a continuous glucose monitor. I'm not out of shape at all, but climbing drops my blood sugar so quickly that I gave up mountain biking because it was just too much of a PIA dealing with the consequences.

I'm not playing the "disabled" card though. I'm far from disabled and could ride a regular bike on flatter trails. There just aren't many of those around me.


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

People on e-bikes were everywhere in Lenzerheide. More than a thousand of them were being ridden all over the mountain and town. Like it or not, they are coming. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sean Allan (May 4, 2005)

Thanks. As a ( now) diet controlled diabetic ( sometimes not...) I get the issue, but you have all the hardware and technology to make it completely possible to ride a normal bike. Many do. It is hard and I get why you don't want to deal with it. As someone who regularly see's their BS drop to under 50 I get how it feels and the possible consequences. I have no problem getting on my bike and riding across full states with my condition, though I get not everyone is the same and it takes a lot of planning and care. For me taking drugs wasn't the answer I was looking for, nor is riding an e-bike. Thanks for the honest reply. Good luck.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

J-Flo said:


> People on e-bikes were everywhere in Lenzerheide. More than a thousand of them were being ridden all over the mountain and town. Like it or not, they are coming.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Different kind of ebike over there, unfortunately for US emtb riders, it's not an apples to apples comparison.


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## brownpownow (Jul 19, 2018)

Harryman said:


> Different kind of ebike over there, unfortunately for US emtb riders, it's not an apples to apples comparison.


More significant is the reltively uniform access over there vs. our fragmented jurisdictions and regs.

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gea...ikes-are-big-in-europe-but-not-north-america/


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## zorg (Jul 1, 2004)

Europe does not seem to be beset by the near religious zeal displayed by outdoor users in the US, especially when it comes to access. Instead, we have hikers/Sierra Club/TNC hating on anything that has wheels, and we have MTBers hating on ebikes. 

As I said before, once I'm too old to climb in the Sierra under my own power, I'm getting one. I won't really care what the rules are anyway. I'll go riding.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

The US has ego built into its culture. There's the relation of success to military power, financial power, middle class status symbols... Europe's cultural norms are a lot different. They've been through a lot, and have learned to suppress such feelings, and the associated conflict.

When conservationists think motor vehicle, they think of pollution, such as water contamination from fluid leaks and other severe damage. When casual trail users think motor vehicle, in the context of ebikes, they think of the damage to their egos, trail surface, and the inconvenience of dealing with traffic going by (including the possibility of collision).


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> When casual trail users think motor vehicle, in the context of ebikes, they think of the damage to their egos, trail surface, and the inconvenience of dealing with traffic going by (including the possibility of collision).


How did you derive this info?


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2018)

ninjichor said:


> The US has ego built into its culture. There's the relation of success to military power, financial power, middle class status symbols... Europe's cultural norms are a lot different. They've been through a lot, and have learned to suppress such feelings, and the associated conflict.
> 
> When conservationists think motor vehicle, they think of pollution, such as water contamination from fluid leaks and other severe damage. When casual trail users think motor vehicle, in the context of ebikes, they think of the damage to their egos, trail surface, and the inconvenience of dealing with traffic going by (including the possibility of collision).


These threads always bring out the nut jobs ut:ut:ut:


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## AD (Feb 20, 2009)

ha, i was chatting with my neighbour yesterday who recently bought an eMTB. He has a place in Sun Valley and spent all summer shredding it. He's closer to 70 than 60 and had a loads of fun. 

Great to hear balanced views, not everyone has declared whether they have ridden one though.

Oh and Griz, i think you'll find i was chasing you that day in Downieville, not the other way round!


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

To answer the OP and avoid the flame-war:

I rented a Specialized Levo a while back for a day just to see what all the fuss was about. I tried to use it for what it was good for, which was getting way the hell out further than I would otherwise have been able to. For that, it did its job well. They're still too heavy for really fun descending IMO - they certainly go down hill fast and feel very planted but the fun factor is a little less because it just feels like you're riding a whale down a hill. I also think the manufacturers have got a bit of a problem to deal with in terms of price range - they're already expensive because of all the e-tech stuff so they cheap out a bit on suspension, but the big heavy bikes are exactly when you'd want the most capable suspension. Felt like it could have used a Fox 36 and Float X2 or DHX2. I guess the target market for who wants these is also rapidly shifting and I bet the product people don't quite know what to do.

It was a fun experience, but don't think I want one quite yet because a) I still like pedaling my bike and b) they're not quite there yet in terms of weight/price/performance. But give it another 8-10 years and I bet both those conditions will change.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

I irde an ebike sometimes. They're great. Tons of fun but is a different feeling of riding. Different experience really. I switch off and on ebike and regular bike. Depending on what I feel like that day.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> How did you derive this info?


The internet, including mtbr, which was verified through personal observation.

Quotes like "it's cheating", "novice rutting up the trail", "novice passing me on the climb", "if any ebiker collides with me, [insert vengeful threatening action]".

The internet is connected to the real world more than people like to admit. People project/reflect the deep unfiltered parts of their minds, which may be so uncharacteristic that they may treat their online identity as a different person. More forward-thinking people may believe that reality is a more of a front...



griz said:


> These threads always bring out the nut jobs ut:ut:ut:


What'a nut job? Who's an example?

If you're questioning my perspective, I suggest comparing American resumes vs European CVs, or American sports... Americans are essentially being directed to be arrogant, or having such arrogance celebrated.

Americans gain certain levels of ambition through cultural goals like the American dream.

Reason to believe that sensitive ego is behind socialist-style rules in sports to enforce "fairness" (salary caps); how else do you explain this choice, over a capitalistic free market that would've likely just resulted in the powerful becoming more powerful?

What reason is there to doubt? I'll admit that globalization and the information age kind of alters the cultural norms, with the latest generation of people questioning the need for home owning, car owning, family making, traditional job hunting, sports, etc., but this can only really be evidenced as being the prevailing trend in the few highly urbanized areas.

P.S. if it wasn't clear, it's implied that sensitive ego is behind the demand for regulation of ebikes. The rest was just reasoning to give the impression that Americans have more culturally ingrained ego than Europe. That one main difference between Americans and Europeans, is the view of cycling as a sport (open to ego, arrogance) vs an utilitarian tool in their way of life.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

My observations suggest that things posted on internet forums (e.g. mtbr) often have little to do with reality.



ninjichor said:


> P.S. if it wasn't clear, it's implied that sensitive ego is behind the demand for regulation of ebikes. The rest was just reasoning to give the impression that Americans have more culturally ingrained ego than Europe.


I think you're way off base, some people only want some motor free areas. Disagreement doesn't necessarily involve egos.

Are you against regulating higher powered ebikes?


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> My observations suggest that things posted on internet forums (e.g. mtbr) often have little to do with reality.
> 
> I think you're way off base, some people only want some motor free areas. Disagreement doesn't necessarily involve egos.
> 
> Are you against regulating higher powered ebikes?


"*Some* _motor-free_ areas". Some, not all. Motor-free is a dated bias--as energy becomes cheaper/abundant, motors (and electronics) will show up in more places.

How are high powered motor vehicles regulated on the roadways? Not through their power, but through pollution regulation (emissions), and other requirements that create order in shared spaces. Are you scared when a high powered vehicle passes you on the roadway? There's speed limits for mitigating this. Are you annoyed by loaded RVs, climbing up a mountain road, holding up traffic? There's pull-outs and passing areas for this. Basically, have an intelligently engineered shared space, and having things designed to fit in it.

Regarding being against regulating higher powered ebikes, I believe that creating order on the trail would be a more effective management strategy, than trying to single out high powered ebikes from low powered ones. For example, see how order makes a crowded Costco gas station seem more tolerable than any other crowded discount gas station, that didn't have such order, that had multiple people waiting in line for a pump. The latter tends to be chaotic in comparison. Can be as simple as having trail etiquette, "rules of the trail", widely publicized. I recall IMBA passing out such, to remind people to respect the trail and knowing your limits, but it got cut out of the budget apparently. Who knows and follows the rules well enough to recite them without visiting their page?

https://www.imba.com/ride/imba-rules-of-the-trail

I'm just generally against any regulation when viable alternatives exist. Regulations just seem to punish too many, due to the actions of few stupid individuals, only being acceptable if the stupid individuals can cause damage that costs many times more than the cost of enforcing the regulation. It's apparently more difficult to reverse legislation than it is to implement new ones.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> Motor-free is a dated bias


That is your opinion, and thankfully not everyone's.


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## zorg (Jul 1, 2004)

ninjichor said:


> The internet, including mtbr, which was verified through personal observation.
> 
> Quotes like "it's cheating", "novice rutting up the trail", "novice passing me on the climb", "if any ebiker collides with me, [insert vengeful threatening action]".
> 
> ...


Do you actually live in the US?

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> Regarding being against regulating higher powered ebikes, I believe that creating order on the trail would be a more effective management strategy, than trying to single out high powered ebikes from low powered ones. For example, see how order makes a crowded Costco gas station seem more livable than another popular gas station that didn't have such order, such as a gas station that offered a discount for patronizing its related store. The latter is chaos. Can be as simple as having trail etiquette, "rules of the trail", widely publicized. I recall IMBA passing out such, to remind people to respect the trail and knowing your limits, but it got cut out of the budget apparently. Who knows and follows the rules well enough to recite them without visiting their page?


So you're ok with motorbikes having universal access, as long as they follow proper etiquette? That bizarre gas station analogy is exactly why motor free areas are essential for humanity's well being.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> So you're ok with motorbikes having universal access, as long as they follow proper etiquette? That bizarre gas station analogy is exactly why motor free areas are essential for humanity's well being.


You judge the analogy to be bizarre because you lack understanding perhaps? You come with that conclusion? Did anyone define nut job yet?

I thought it could be one many American adults could relate to. How about highway interchanges? Do notice all the different style of on/off ramps that allow one major roadway's traffic to merge with another major roadway? Cloverleaf, diverging diamond, directional... I wouldn't be surprised if these things were "invisible" to you, and just "worked", as you utilized them.

The point is that order can be created in multiple ways. Order in the engineering/design of the public space itself, order through sharing rules/etiquette, or any combination of these two.

The call for regulation is similar to calling people out for guilt. It would be akin to calling out those who seek such regulation as practicing extremism, comparable to profiling, segregation, inability to share, etc. Shall I relate it to another shaming movement, such as shaming special snowflakes who demand their own safe space? What wrong is being done? If I were to question if something is wrong or not, I'd first start with the "wrongness" of people judging without jurisdiction. It's just an opinion, right, and the perceived majority rules? xD

Opinions matter. It put mine into my own words. I believe motors are coming, and they will be sized appropriately for the job. Why shame 12V impact drivers because 8V ones work better for the job you had in mind, and good old handle tools still do the job adequately, if you're not pressed for time? Are the 12V ones going to burn down your project, or make you feel doom/gloom that every fastener they touched could be ruined (stripped/overtorqued)? Ban them from being used in service shops, since your vehicle may have sensitive fasteners (wheel locks)? Shall I frame your opinion into some demonized one, like anti-freedom pro-regulation, like how you framed mine into universal motorbike access? Is the goal not the same, to utilize public space without being enraged by others, and other uncontrollable things that can be expected?

What I see is not an ebike problem, but pre-existing problems that are made more apparent by the new opportunities offered through ebikes improving accessibility. There was always problems with trail etiquette, always problems with novices rutting up trails, always problems with people not understanding their limits and calling for emergency assistance, etc. Limiting these problems by nixing the opportunity is akin to banning robots, out of fear of them stealing jobs. I believe it's better to expect people to want the more convenient option, and that it's smarter to just design the big picture better, by making changes relatively invisible to the masses, solving problems sensibly and practically. There's bigger problems to deal with, and ebikes are part of a solution to some of them.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ninjichor said:


> There's bigger problems to deal with, and ebikes are part of a solution to some of them.


But not the solution to all of them and proposing blanket/near blanket access is simply overreach. Until power levels can be effectively monitored/regulated (probably never) the status quo will remain just that, the status quo.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> You judge the analogy to be bizarre because you lack understanding perhaps? You come with that conclusion? Did anyone define nut job yet?
> 
> I thought it could be one many American adults could relate to. How about highway interchanges? Do notice all the different style of on/off ramps that allow one major roadway's traffic to merge with another major roadway? Cloverleaf, diverging diamond, directional... I wouldn't be surprised if these things were "invisible" to you, and just "worked", as you utilized them.
> 
> ...


 I can't make heads or tails out of any of that^ On ramps and cloverleafs merge all traffic, are you advocating for semis on trails?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> Opinions matter. It put mine into my own words. I believe motors are coming, and they will be sized appropriately for the job.


Motors have actually been around for quite awhile, only recently has there been a movement to make them legally invisible.

Who or what will determine what's an appropriately sized motor? Etiquette?


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> Motors have actually been around for quite awhile, only recently has there been a movement to make them legally invisible.
> 
> Who or what will determine what's an appropriately sized motor? Etiquette?


Motors are coming to mechanical systems in general, not just mtb.

The research determines what's an appropriately sized motor.

Not sure how to re-word the last post in a simple way that doesn't have you not read it... I guess I'm trying to emphasize the existence of middle ground on issues such as this one. That it's very ignorant to make decisions based on simple logic (e.g. binary logic such as it has a motor or it doesn't). I'm calling out that such decision-making is extremism. Such heavy reliance on fear-mongering and spreading terror (e.g. consequences of putting great power into a fool's hand), or over-promising on reward (e.g. being healthier for the fight for mtb trail access, and being a much better workout), is the bread and butter of such a school of thought.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ninjichor said:


> That it's very ignorant to make decisions based on simple logic (e.g. binary logic such as it has a motor or it doesn't).


It's simple, uncomplicated and it works. Motors put a lot of access at risk but that doesn't seem to matter to most of the motorized crowd. Fear mongering? Like saying "they're coming so get used to it".


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> Motors are coming mechanical systems in general, not just mtb.
> 
> The research determines what's an appropriately sized motor.
> 
> Not sure how to re-word the last post in a simple way that doesn't have you not read it... I guess I'm trying to emphasize the existence of middle ground on issues such as this one. That it's very ignorant to make decisions based on simple logic (e.g. binary logic such as it has a motor or it doesn't). I'm calling out that such decision-making is extremism. Such heavy reliance on fear-mongering and spreading terror (e.g. consequences of putting great power into a fool's hand), or over-promising on reward (e.g. being healthier for the fight for mtb trail access, and being a much better workout), is the bread and butter of such a school of thought.


Still have no idea what you're on about. Who's research? From what I can gather it seems you're saying there's no place on earth that should exclude motors. Because ignorance and logic. I think?


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Not whose research. *The* research. The entirety, rather than select research.


Simple binary logic works both ways. Is there any possibility that riders on emtbs can coexist with current users of singletrack trails? If anyone says no, it's easy to just call them names, stereotyping them however you like. Wordy "maybe/depends" answers could be mostly ignored/disrespected, or they could be asked again and forced to say yes or no.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

ninjichor said:


> Motors are coming to mechanical systems in general, not just mtb.
> 
> The research determines what's an appropriately sized motor.
> 
> Not sure how to re-word the last post in a simple way that doesn't have you not read it... I guess I'm trying to emphasize the existence of middle ground on issues such as this one. That it's very ignorant to make decisions based on simple logic (e.g. binary logic such as it has a motor or it doesn't). I'm calling out that such decision-making is extremism. Such heavy reliance on fear-mongering and spreading terror (e.g. consequences of putting great power into a fool's hand), or over-promising on reward (e.g. being healthier for the fight for mtb trail access, and being a much better workout), is the bread and butter of such a school of thought.


 I will resist the motor Borg. It is not futile. Ninji, where do you ride? MA guy here. Not so simple as you describe. Motorized vehicles not allowed for the most part. Plus stuff like rules and conservation land access not allowing motorized vehicles. You seem to be carrying a lot of baggage not related to trail access. Opinions matter not. ( It's not fair, right or extreme) Just the rules in place as they currently stand. Don't like the rules? Change them. But motors are coming ( see 1984) change is inevitable? Umm, good luck with that. I have demoed an e bike. Way heavy, too fast and not able to loft the front wheel over logs and ledges easily.


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

Why did this thread get moved from norcal to ebikes? It was civil & useful feedback on norcal.

Now in the ebikes forum, every eHater & eHater-Hater fvcked up this thread like every other.

If y'all really can't stay on topic, go away please.

Thanks,

Catfish ...


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