# Women Using Male Pacers in Races



## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

First this is a guy asking. Do women consider it cheating or competing dirty when other women bring along male team mates to act as pacers or even as blockers. I saw both happen this weekend in a long distance cross race and have seen it before in 100 miler MTB races.


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## chainringrrl (Aug 3, 2007)

yes, I do if they are being used as blockers.


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## Crack Monkey (Sep 25, 2006)

Another guy's response...

Blockers? Cheating. No more legal, and no less unsportsmanlike, than a guy using a guy as a blocker. This isn't a team sport (at least not in the sense that road races are).

Pacers? Legal. A guy could get a guy to pace too. For an ultra-distance event, I imagine it is common for both sexes. Heck, I just wish I was fast enough to be one of the rabbits.


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## chainringrrl (Aug 3, 2007)

I agree with crack monkey


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

Guy riding just to help pace, carry spares and to be drafted still seems unfair to me compared to the women without team mates or with teammates in the event for themselves.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Raymo853 said:


> Guy riding just to help pace, carry spares and to be drafted still seems unfair to me compared to the women without team mates or with teammates in the event for themselves.


Carrying spare parts, etc. may not be legal according to the race rules. But if it is - legal is legal.

Blocking? That's ridiculous and I can't see it being seen as fair by anyone in a MTB race. But if pacing is legal, why not? I'd imagine plenty of men do it too.


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## chainringrrl (Aug 3, 2007)

If a racer blocks for herself, its one thing. If a male "pacer" blocks for her, its shady.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I'm reading about the last years of traditonal amature running*

in pursuit of the 4 minute mile. Pacing was considered shady. Racing against each other fair and square was honorable. Blocking "happens" but is not considered fair play. I'm not saying anything about "legal," just commenting on an historical perspective. Heck, wheel sucking is legal.......

As to the original poster I don't think I have enough detail to comment on what happened.


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

connie said:


> Carrying spare parts, etc. may not be legal according to the race rules. But if it is - legal is legal.


In some of the races I am thinking of, the Shendoah 100 & Wilderness 101, getting support from people beyond the aid stations is against the rules. Now is getting support from a team mate, is ok, but I hate to say it a women getting support from males team mates only there to help her compete against other women and not for themselves against the other men bothers me. The women should be comfortable competing against the other women


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Raymo853 said:


> In some of the races I am thinking of, the Shendoah 100 & Wilderness 101, getting support from people beyond the aid stations is against the rules. Now is getting support from a team mate, is ok, but I hate to say it a women getting support from males team mates only there to help her compete against other women and not for themselves against the other men bothers me. The women should be comfortable competing against the other women


Well - if it's against the rules they shouldn't be doing it.

But you're saying getting support from a teammate is okay. ? So, you just don't like that they have male teammates supporting them, but if it was female teammates doing the same thing it would be okay?


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

connie said:


> but if it was female teammates doing the same thing it would be okay?


Yes.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I'd like to see some clear rules cited here*

or we are just riding in circles.

having said that...
if you are having someone else carry your extra weight in supplies, setting your pace, picking your line, or running interference for you it really goes counter to the sense of self-sufficiency prevailent in mountain biking.

having said that.....
I have raced in the same races as some of my High School kids. I did this in my early years as a coach to learn a few things. My goal there was to be on the course with new riders to see how they were doing and provide mental and emotional support. These riders were doing their first race and were well out of contention.

having said that....
We had a coach, in the early years of the League, who rode pace and essentially guided a racer through a championship race. As the girls class was shallow a high finish, any finish, was worth a lot of team points. That never happend again. Never.

having said that....
we have strict rules about physically supporting riders on the course and there are time penalties for any such intervention. We cannot touch riders either. I have been on the sidelines when a rider was in crisis where I have gone onto the course, grabbed their attention, and redirected them to success. Usually these are the less competitive riders and time they have lost due to the interuption is penalty enough. I think that the parents find this kind of support to be part fo the constant learning their kids go through and are grateful for the experience. I had a stranger approach me and say, " last year you helped my daughter out of a tough spot and it kept her in the Championship Race. It really made a difference to her and meant a lot to me."

having said that.....
I was a Course Marshal for a local annual crit. In one women's category there was a gal who was killing eveyone; awesome scary powerful. I asked a race official what she was doing out there. He said that she was just getting in some miles. A few moments later she backed off, spun her legs out, and dropped back into the middle of the pack. For the rest of the race she took her turns at the front and kept things in line. At the bell lap she dropped to mid pack and let the girls run to the finish.

So, in general, there are many ways to look at this problem. It really depends on the goals in a race. If you are determined for the podium and using someone else help you to advantage is one thing. If you are trying to get a handle on this race experience it is another thing. Great riders have the capacity for generousity. The rest of us just struggle along to try and look respectable.


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## chainringrrl (Aug 3, 2007)

If a girl in my sport class had one of her teammates drop back and "pace" her (we start last, so her teammate would already have given up his spot) I'd think it was shady, but its legal. If, however, he "blocked" other racers-following her and not allowing others to pass; it's wrong. That's the difference. A girl can block for herself, but using a male teammate as a buffer between herself and other racers to prevent them from passing is wrong, IMHO.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Raymo853 said:


> First this is a guy asking. Do women consider it cheating or competing dirty when other women bring along male team mates to act as pacers or even as blockers. I saw both happen this weekend in a long distance cross race and have seen it before in 100 miler MTB races.


My answer is pretty much the same as everyone else's - but I am curious to ask you - why the interest? Did something happen to affect one of your team members, or were you acting as a blocker? And why differentiate between sexes?


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

Impy said:


> And why differentiate between sexes?


1. They compete for different pools of prize money
2. The winning elite women usually finish more than a full hour behind the elite men.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Raymo853 said:


> 1. They compete for different pools of prize money
> 2. The winning elite women usually finish more than a full hour behind the elite men.


I think you missed my point. My question referred to why does it matter if it is a man blocking for a woman, or a woman blocking for a man?

I don't know that much about racing, timing etc. Do the men always go first?

How can you possibly have someone "block" in a 100 mile race? I would think people would eventually find a way to go around on wider sections even if someone is pacing?


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

Impy said:


> I don't know that much about racing, timing etc. Do the men always go first?


In most 100 mile and similar races the men and women either start together or only a few mins apart. I think that is the better way myself from a race logistics point of view and comradeship point of view. I also think it is best when the organizers start the geared, SS, fixed, veteran, .. classes altogether.


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

Impy said:


> How can you possibly have someone "block" in a 100 mile race? I would think people would eventually find a way to go around on wider sections even if someone is pacing?


Being forced off of a group along a road section once is more than enough to cost someone 20 mins in a 8 hour 100 mile race. Just like in road races where it can make the difference between winning the race/stage or finishing 1 hour of of a 5 hour pace.


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

Impy said:


> I think you missed my point. My question referred to why does it matter if it is a man blocking for a woman, or a woman blocking for a man?


To be consistent I would say this would not matter. However, I do say it is worse because there are so fewer women riders, in the 2007 SH100 there were nearly 500 racers and maybe 50 women.

And, I know this is not PC, the elite men are always going to be faster & stronger than the elite women. Therefore the the women will not have the same ability to get away, around or through a male blocker as they would to a female blocker as a elite male would versus another man or a female blocker.


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

Impy said:


> My answer is pretty much the same as everyone else's - but I am curious to ask you - why the interest? Did something happen to affect one of your team members, or were you acting as a blocker?


I would to see which of the women and women team's are the best without interference from the male riders.


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

And one more thing to add, the pacer guy I saw int he Iron Cross turned out to not even bother to register. Or at least not under the name of the team who's kit he was in. I quess he was unwilling to pay the $90 to help somebody else cheat.


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## McLovin (Sep 7, 2007)

If you look at the NORBA rules, XC racing is defined as a individual sport. Pros may be "sponsored" but they are not recognized as a team. The only exception is high-school/middle-school, but NORBA clearly defines that as an "individual sport" as well.



> *NORBA Rule 5A1.*
> High school & middle school mountain bike racing is an individual sport with a team aspect. Riders will compete for individual championships while earning points for their teams, based on their finish places.


Now if you go further it would seem that those not competing for position should yield right-of-way.



> *NORBA Rule 2A4. *
> In the event two riders are vying for position, the leading rider does not have to yield his position to the challenging rider. However, a rider may not bodily interfere with the intent to impede another rider's progress. Traditional rules of racing apply: the leading rider owns the track.


I would argue that the leading rider vying for position owns the track, certainly not a "pacer" who has fallen out of contention (willfully or not) with his own group. This falls in line with my experience of etiquette out on the single-track. But then again I am slow and constantly yielding to faster riders.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Raymo853 said:


> And one more thing to add, the pacer guy I saw int he Iron Cross turned out to not even bother to register. Or at least not under the name of the team who's kit he was in. I quess he was unwilling to pay the $90 to help somebody else cheat.


Did you take it up with the race management?


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## LyndaW (Jul 22, 2005)

Raymo853 said:


> I would to see which of the women and women team's are the best without interference from the male riders.


Raymo your level of interest is curious.

As a woman racer who is often in the lead position in endurance races I can tell you this - I always use the riders around me for pacing and drafting purposes. I'll use every legal tactical advantage I can - that is why it is called racing. When I am off the front of the women's field the racers around me are of course all guys. Often guys love this and give me great pulls and drafting spots. Male racers are often a help and I often return the favor off the race course buying them a beer or some similar nice gesture.

Showing up with a male pacer is totally legal in some races. Like showing up with a five person support crew at a 24-hour solo. If you want to win at the top level you take every legal option. I don't know of any race other than mixed team racing (Trans Rockies) where a male pacer is allowed to carry gear and spares - that is an immediate DQ.

Cheating is cheating and not worth the penalty your soul pays. Why are you complaining about ladies working the legal rules to win? Race rules are how the game is played. Your opinions are just that - opinions.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

LyndaW said:


> Raymo your level of interest is curious.
> 
> As a woman racer who is often in the lead position in endurance races I can tell you this - I always use the riders around me for pacing and drafting purposes. I'll use every legal tactical advantage I can - that is why it is called racing. When I am off the front of the women's field the racers around me are of course all guys. Often guys love this and give me great pulls and drafting spots. Male racers are often a help and I often return the favor off the race course buying them a beer or some similar nice gesture.
> 
> ...


That's what I was thinking - I just have never done an endurance race so I wasn't sure. But it make sense - if pacing is legal, you bring the best pacers you can find. And if that were somehow restricted to other women - how are you going to find women to do that when there are fewer women out there anyway? That sounds to me like it would just further restrict the number of women getting out there racing.

Blocking on the other hand sounds like it shouldn't be legal for anyone other than the racer in the lead to be doing for themselves. Male or female shouldn't matter.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

I saw "blocking" in the TR there were several groups of teams one was about 6 teams, they had a womens team, they were pretty good on the climbs and flats, but were really quite slow down some of the tech sections.

The guys would get behind them and prevent people from passing, and kind of form a big slow lump on some of the most fun single track....most places it was relatively easy to pass them all, even on the tech sections.

I don't think there was any intention to "win" cause this was back in the field.

But I sure was frustrating for some people.

On the longer rides, it really doesn't help your position much (that type of blocking), and a person would learn how to ride way faster, by letting people by and to follow them, just like in normal group riding.

Drafting is fun, competetive and a hoot, nothing more boring than watching a tri with no drafting allowed.

We drafted everbody, and everbody drafted us, at least down were we lived.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Once again, Raymo, what are the rules of your race!!!!?*

In bike racing their are alliances created within the context of the race for short-term and long-term mutual benefit. These include pacing and drafting. The viability of such alliances are a matter of honor. These are all within the rules.

In the example of men blocking for slower women on technical sections could be interpreted in many ways. I see even our high school boys pause a bit behind a girl who is having trouble, even in the heat of a tough race. This is one of the most gracious expressions of inclusive competition from our most powerful and advanced racers. The freshmen, however, tend to be a bit more vicious and have been known to cause, on more than several occasions, crashes and injuries.

Another interpretation would be that these guys are behind the lady to keep themselves from getting entangled. It then becomes and expression of self-preservation.


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> IOnce again, Raymo, what are the rules of your race!!!!?


Once again I am not just talking about the rule as written in the race book but the unwritten rules of fair play.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*If that is your response*

then you are just pissing into the wind, my friend, talking about how it oughtta be.


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

LyndaW said:


> R
> As a woman racer who is often in the lead position in endurance races I can tell you this - I always use the riders around me for pacing and drafting purposes. I'll use every legal tactical advantage I can - that is why it is called racing. When I am off the front of the women's field the racers around me are of course all guys. Often guys love this and give me great pulls and drafting spots. Male racers are often a help and I often return the favor off the race course buying them a beer or some similar nice gesture.


I am not talking about the other racers in the race going at the same pace as you. I am talking about female racers specifically bringing male racers to have only one goal to support them. You may say "well that just what teammates do" but since the men's and female racers are in different classes they legitimately can not be teamamtes


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## Crack Monkey (Sep 25, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I see even our high school boys pause a bit behind a girl who is having trouble, even in the heat of a tough race. This is one of the most gracious expressions of inclusive competition from our most powerful and advanced racers.


Are you sure that's why they're hanging out behind the girls?


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I'll try one more time, then I'm done with you.*



Raymo853 said:


> I am not talking about the other racers in the race going at the same pace as you. I am talking about female racers specifically bringing male racers to have only one goal to support them. You may say "well that just what teammates do" but since the men's and female racers are in different classes they legitimately can not be teamamtes


Show me the rule that says they can or cannot do this!!!!!!!!!! It is a simple request that you have not fulfilled. If there is a rule against it then it is illegal and the discussion is over. If the rules allow this then you are just unhappy.

If you believe that this is really happening against the rules you have to report this to the race offcials within a certain amount of time so they can rule on this. If race officials find that this behavior is occuring then penalties will be set. If the officials do not determin that this behavior is occuring you have at least brought it to their attention and this will put pressure on the parties in question. There is nothing wrong with doing whatever you can to insure fair competition within the rules.


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Show me the rule that says they can or cannot do this!!!!!!!!!! It is a simple request that you have not fulfilled.


I have never once ever said it was in the rules or not and stated I did not care if it was in the rules or not. There are a lot of things not in the rules you should never do, example there are no doping restrictions in the majority of non-NORBA races. But that does not mean you should do it.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Then,*

unless you are going to try to effect a change in the rules, we are done.

When Roger Bannister broke the 4 minute mile barrier he did it with rabbits in a relatively obscure track that was not a race in 1954. There were outcry's that it was not an honorable effort within the spirit of amature racing thoug he broke no rules. Does anyone remember Santee or Landy? I thought not.

So you got beat by a better plan.


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## EJP (Apr 30, 2007)

I do find it interesting that the two people who are apparently most concerned with this particular argument, about womens' racing, in the Womens Lounge, are men.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*What it reveals is*

that the issue is about rules and how one feels about defeat by a mixed-gender plan for a womans victory. This is poignantand gets right to the issue of women and men competing. a woman has already answered this issue in the way that I have.
I will quote from one of my other contributions to tis Forum:

This season I have been around my son's Cross Country racing for his High School. Sometimes, when production allows, male adnd female races are run at the same time. The boys are very hard pressed to be defeated by the girls. "At least I didn't let that girl beat me," was somethng I overhear on occasion. I have stopped boys at this and said, "you had a fine race, son. That girl gave you a run for your money, didn't she?" They will sheepishly acknowledge this and I will follow, " she must be a pretty good athlete and now you know exactly how good," and I will shake their hand and congratulate them on their effort.


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

There were questions about what the results of this situation. I, and others bothered by this, have brought it to the attention of a bunch of race directors. They are going to make it clear this type of shenanigans is not longer acceptable and will result is being disqualification.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Excellent work, Raymo.*

However. if it is not against the rules what power do they have? Sorry to belabor this but our League is writing our rule book and I am involved.


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> However. if it is not against the rules what power do they have? Sorry to belabor this but our League is writing our rule book and I am involved.


In the races I do and am talking about, there is no one but the race director making the rules. There is no committee or association to consult or get approval from.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Wow, sounds like you might want to change race venues. Or start your own.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Changing venues?*

I couldn't disagree more. Being proactive in forming the traditons and rules in a venue are at the very least constructive. It is being part of a community defining its' sense of self. As a racer, and client, it is a worthy effort. Beats whining.

Good luck and best wishes.


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## mtbchick (Aug 16, 2004)

*1. Cheating is when someone uses an unfair advantage. * Training right is not an unfair advantage, eating right is not an unfair advantage. EPO is an unfair advantage.

It is an unfair advantage when 1 woman uses a male "pacer" (drafting? pacing?), then all women should have one.

If this were fair, and not cheating, wouldn't they have male pacers in the Olympics? World Championships? National Championships?

I was blocked once in a race, by a male teammate of my competitor (men and women were racing together). I lost the race by 15 seconds which is probably the amount of time I lost when I realized, as the guy would not let me around, that I was being blocked. He passed me, sat in, and slowed, and would not let me pass. Thing is, I was not conscious of what was happening until I saw my heart rate. How could someone do such a thing?
This is cheating.

*2. Any time a female "paces" a male, it is cheating.* The reason is because 1, that male is not "in the same race", 2. men are faster, so the fastest male is stronger than the fastest female (in most cases) so of course, this is an unfair advantage that anyone else in the race does not have. 3. I have seen this in many races where men catch up to the women, and the women draft off the men. This is illegal in USA Cycling races, because it is cheating.


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