# Laser Levels for Trail Work?



## Wildfire (Feb 4, 2004)

I'm in the market for a high quality laser level (transit style) that can also be adjusted to shoot grades, preferably with an integral grade readout, for use on bridge and elevated walkway projects. It would need to have a 300 to 600 foot range and be visible in sunlight. Anybody have any experience with such a tool?


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

I've never seen a transit style level that used visible light. Typically they use a receiver that mounts on a leveling rod and gives tone when it's in the plane of the (non-visible) laser from the transit. I've seen laser levels many places that do use visible beams of light, but they're just levels. I suppose if you mounted one on a tripod, it could be used like a transit, maybe setting the grade with a clino. Red lasers will have a limited visible distance, so I'm not sure how well the levels I've seen will work. Green lasers tend to be much more visible, but harder to find, more expensive, and more powerful. In fact, you have to be quite careful with green lasers, they can cause vision damage pretty quickly.


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## Wildfire (Feb 4, 2004)

Thanks, Cotharyus. A device using a receiver on a rod would work fine, I suppose. Are you aware of any brands/models that have adjustable slope angles for the beam? I'm a bit color blind and have a hard time seeing the red beam on the level I have now. Everybody else can see it, but not me. I might have better luck with green -- right up to the point that I hard boil my retinas, I guess. I've been using the tried and true string line method but it's a pain.

Hmmm, it just occured to me that maybe I could mount a rifle or pistol laser sight onto my digital level and set it up on a tripod. That might work pretty darn good, the more I think about it. 

The project I've been working on involves setting grades for a one half mile helical pile elevated ADA walk/bike way across wetlands that have a little bit of terrain variation (2 to 3 feet) and I need to keep the final deck height below 30" (to avoid having to use handrails) so need to hug the terrain as much as I can while keeping deck grades below 3%. This is resulting in some extended runs in which I need to keep the grades consistant to avoid a wavy-looking deck. Also, to complicate matters, it has a lot of gentle turns around trees so sight distance can be limited in places. Anyway, it's been a fun project but with a few technicalities that needed to get sorted out.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

With the beam type that use a receiver your slop is set by knowing how far you are from the transmitter (which automatically levels itself) and moving the receiver to a new height on the leveling rod based on that distance and the slope you want.


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## Wildfire (Feb 4, 2004)

Cotharyus said:


> With the beam type that use a receiver your slop is set by knowing how far you are from the transmitter (which automatically levels itself) and moving the receiver to a new height on the leveling rod based on that distance and the slope you want.


Right, thanks. Although I was hoping for something that didn't involve math.


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## dragonslayer (May 5, 2006)

*Slope matching Laser Level*

Check this out RL-H4C | Topcon Positioning Systems, Inc.


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## Wildfire (Feb 4, 2004)

dragonslayer said:


> Check this out RL-H4C | Topcon Positioning Systems, Inc.


Bingo! Thank you!


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## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

We own a Sokkia LP410 with a (claimed) 500m range. We mostly use it for bike park and pumptrack work.


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## Wildfire (Feb 4, 2004)

HypNoTic said:


> We own a Sokkia LP410 with a (claimed) 500m range. We mostly use it for bike park and pumptrack work.


HypNoTic, is yours the LP410-S model (the one that does single-grade slopes up to 8.7%)? Is 8.7% enough for most of your applications?

Looking into these things a bit more, I see some of them have dual-grade capabilities (could be used for both tread grade and outslope, for example). They're also used to interface with computerized receivers controlling the the blade hydraulics on dozers for large grading jobs like parking lots and such. Not that I'm interested in that application, but it's pretty cool.

Thanks for the info and glad to see there are products available.


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## thumpduster (Nov 19, 2008)

I bought a RL-H4C last summer and its been absolutely fantastic. We've used it for lots of stuff, from site grading to accessible trails and pump track design/layouts. This isn't a true grade laser, but a grade-matching laser. For another $1k I could have gotten the version where I punch in 4% slope and it hits it. This version either auto-levels or has up/down buttons to match your grade, which is as easy as checking elev at the tripod and moving the receiver on the grade rod down to what ever amount you need for the distance: i.e. 6" at 12.5' or 2' at 50' yields a 4% slope. Then push the up/down till the laser matches that slope.

This unit has a visible red beam, but using a receiver (which is included when you buy it) makes life easy once you get used to the beeping. 

If you have a Topcon dealer around go check it out. Most of them will have a demo unit to try, and once you see the prices on the rest of their product line $800 for a laser doesn't seem that bad.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Wow am I behind the times... still lick my thumb and squint. 

Great discussion...


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## Wildfire (Feb 4, 2004)

bsieb said:


> Wow am I behind the times... still lick my thumb and squint.
> 
> Great discussion...


Whatever tool you use, squinting always helps. Thanks for all the advise, everyone.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I think it's awesome that you're doing work of a scale that requires that kind of precision, would love to see pics.


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## Wildfire (Feb 4, 2004)

The piling contractor is still installing the helical piles, which have to be done in winter (such as it is in Alaska this year) to avoid sinking the equipment and damaging the wetlands. The woodwork and fiberglass light-transmitting decking will be completed this summer.

Truth be told, we did the layout for this project with a stringline, a digital level, small laser level, and a 300 foot tape but, had I known such a tool actually existed, a slope laser would have made it a lot faster and easier. However, Phase II is in the works.

Here are a few pics. The helical piles are literally screwed into the ground to a prescribed torque reading -- in this case a depth of around 7 feet --depending on the bearing capacity of the soil/muck, frost depth and weight of the structure plus loads. The piles have a plastic sleeve to help prevent frost jacking. The actual ground disturbance for the entire structure is limited to the 2 3/8" diameter of the piles so getting Corps of Engineers and other wetlands permits becomes a lot easier. After the tops are cut to grade, metal saddles are installed on top of the piles to support treated wood sills, which will in turn support the stringers. It's a pretty neat system.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I look forward to seeing the decking... rock is what I deal with mostly, great to see the opposite situation. Thanks!


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## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

Wildfire said:


> HypNoTic, is yours the LP410-S model (the one that does single-grade slopes up to 8.7%)? Is 8.7% enough for most of your applications?


I have the LP410, not S. Having the slope calculated for you is fine on some jobs, but I virtually always have a very detailled CAD plan with me on the job and it's very easy to calculate relative/actual elevation on the field. I use a 5m and a 10m post, depending on the situation. I got the long range version because we often work on larger BMX track projects.

On major jobs, we now use a robotic Total Station with the Civil3D files uploaded right into it. THAT is awesome!


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## Wildfire (Feb 4, 2004)

HypNoTic said:


> I have the LP410, not S. Having the slope calculated for you is fine on some jobs, but I virtually always have a very detailled CAD plan with me on the job and it's very easy to calculate relative/actual elevation on the field. I use a 5m and a 10m post, depending on the situation. I got the long range version because we often work on larger BMX track projects.
> 
> On major jobs, we now use a robotic Total Station with the Civil3D files uploaded right into it. THAT is awesome!


Wow. Hope you still squint . It's amazing how some aspects of trailbuilding have evolved to the point where high tech tools like these become useful. Thanks.


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## aaaaabbbbb ccccc (Apr 8, 2015)

Hi Wildfire,

I have used laser levels for a very similar job abd always find that Leica lasers do a pretty good job. They do cost a little more but it is worth it for the durability and accuracy. Just make sure you look after it properly!

Take a look here to see most of the Leica range: Laser Levels | One Point Survey Equipment 

I would definitely take a look at the Leica Rugby 610 as well as the budget GPR laser levels.

Good luck!


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## Wildfire (Feb 4, 2004)

aaaaabbbbb ccccc said:


> Hi Wildfire,
> 
> I have used laser levels for a very similar job abd always find that Leica lasers do a pretty good job. They do cost a little more but it is worth it for the durability and accuracy. Just make sure you look after it properly!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info as I'm still shopping. Any preferences as to the receiver, looks like they have two options? Has the 8% max grade capability been a limitation for you? Dual axis looks like it could come in very handy at times.

Hey, it's your first post: welcome aboard!


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## ABud (Feb 12, 2012)

Look at this device ZIPLEVEL® - HOME We rent them, super easy to use one man operation. It uses a gas filled 100' super durable line which attaches a base unit to the digital receiver/ reader which allows 200' diameter non line of site required to read + or - elevations. The device has a feature that allows leap frogging the base 200' at a time while maintaining original 0.0' elevation allowing infinite distance and elevation from original reference. Cost I think about $700, found online.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

ABud said:


> Look at this device ZIPLEVEL® - HOME We rent them, super easy to use one man operation. It uses a gas filled 100' super durable line which attaches a base unit to the digital receiver/ reader which allows 200' diameter non line of site required to read + or - elevations. The device has a feature that allows leap frogging the base 200' at a time while maintaining original 0.0' elevation allowing infinite distance and elevation from original reference. Cost I think about $700, found online.


I wonder if this can work in our heavy chaparral? We use 5' tall pvc poles and site with a clinometer pole to pole.

Last ones are coffee berry with poison oak interlaced.


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## ABud (Feb 12, 2012)

slocaus said:


> I wonder if this can work in our heavy chaparral?






Of course it does!


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

ABud said:


> Of course it does!


State Parks would not allow us to build trails like that, and we do much higher quality work with better aesthetics for a memorable narrow trail experience.

We'd barrel roll that tractor on your 50-60% side slopes too. We puckered our hired mini-x operator something bad.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

slocaus said:


> State Parks would not allow us to build trails like that, and we do much higher quality work with better aesthetics for a memorable narrow trail experience.
> 
> We'd barrel roll that tractor on your 50-60% side slopes too. We puckered our hired mini-x operator something bad.


I'm not trying to throw this thread off, but...more pictures of this, please. I'm curious what kind of line you guys actually cut into something that steep, and how that worked out with a mini ex. Heck, if you've got video, I'd love to see that.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Cotharyus said:


> I'm not trying to throw this thread off, but...more pictures of this, please. I'm curious what kind of line you guys actually cut into something that steep, and how that worked out with a mini ex. Heck, if you've got video, I'd love to see that.


I have quite a few pics of this project, but not online since we did not post until it opened. I'll get them online and let you know. I'm dealing with some ongoing health issues, so it will be a few weeks.


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## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

Cotharyus said:


> I'm curious what kind of line you guys actually cut into something that steep


Weapon of choice is our Kubota U17 mini-X. Being zero-swing, it's awesome to be able to rotate without having to consider the tailswing. And benchcutting in heavy slope is both fun and lightning fast!

With that slope and type of soil, a dozer is another excellent choice.


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## aaaaabbbbb ccccc (Apr 8, 2015)

Wildfire said:


> Thanks for the info as I'm still shopping. Any preferences as to the receiver, looks like they have two options? Has the 8% max grade capability been a limitation for you? Dual axis looks like it could come in very handy at times.
> 
> Hey, it's your first post: welcome aboard!


Hi Wildfire,

I think the Rod Eye basic receiver will certainly do a job for you. The Rod Eye 140 offers a greater working diameter and detection window as well as more choices for detection accuracies. Take a look here Leica Rod Eye Laser Receivers | One Point Survey Equipment to compare them.

With regards to the 8% max grade, I have never found this to be a problem myself but I am probably not the best person to ask as I have not used its grade capabilities too many times. Maybe that is a question you could put out to everyone else to see if they can provide a better answer than me.

The dual grade functionality is definitely a bonus. It has saved me a lot of time!


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

HypNoTic said:


> Weapon of choice is our Kubota U17 mini-X. Being zero-swing, it's awesome to be able to rotate without having to consider the tailswing. And benchcutting in heavy slope is both fun and lightning fast!
> 
> With that slope and type of soil, a dozer is another excellent choice.


The U17 is exactly what I use. That zero tail swing is also pretty sweet for running through semi-thick cedar/hardwood forest mix and being able to keep things tight in the trees without tearing stuff up. I've got a layout that runs across some very steep hills over a creek, and my main concern is exposing rocks that I can neither move, nor get around on the side of the hill. I expect that on such a hillside anything other than a properly built up rolling crown switchback is probably right out for turns.

My apologies for derailing the thread - but talking about the pucker factor of a mini-ex on the side of that slope really got my attention.


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