# When did V-brakes come out?



## CroMoHo (Oct 20, 2009)

Please tell me what was the first year V-brakes started coming speced on bikes. I'm thinking it was 1996. Am I right?


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Yes you are; Shimano M950 group was first to feature V-brakes in 1996.


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## CroMoHo (Oct 20, 2009)

Then that must be what year my Diamond Back Apex frame is. Thanx a bunch.


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

mechagouki said:


> Yes you are; Shimano M950 group was first to feature V-brakes in 1996.


Was it really that late? I was thinking that I got a demo pair after Interbike 1993 and started appearing on bikes in '94. Of course those years have a tendency to flow together these days and the shows even more so.


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## CroMoHo (Oct 20, 2009)

themanmonkey said:


> Was it really that late? I was thinking that I got a demo pair after Interbike 1993 and started appearing on bikes in '94. Of course those years have a tendency to flow together these days and the shows even more so.


 I'm pretty sure 1996 is correct, however, I was wondering about the (M-950) model which I think denotes the XT parts. I thought the first ones out were the LX's which would have been (M-750) I think. Anyway, I could be wrong and now I'm starting to get confused.


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

M9xx = XTR
M7xx = XT


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## CroMoHo (Oct 20, 2009)

mechagouki said:


> M9xx = XTR
> M7xx = XT


 Oh, okay, so that would make LX to be (M-570). Thanks for the refreshment.


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

Shimano V-Brakes started showing up on bikes in 1996 at both the XT and XTR level. However, linear pull brakes have been around longer than that. Pauls Cross Stops and IRD Widgets were cam operated (to increase cable pull) linear pulls that were around a few years before the Shimano versions.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

blumarvel said:


> Then that must be what year my Diamond Back Apex frame is. Thanx a bunch.


Assuming the brakes are original to the bike.


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## GonaSovereign (Sep 20, 2004)

Pre-Shimano, Marinovative Cheap Trick was the first I saw in about 89-90, give or take. 
Paul made me a funky one for a hangerless IRD suspension fork in about 91. It was just like this one (middle top in the pic). It wasn't very good, but would have been better with a lever that pulled more cable. IRD did it better soon after, and then Shimano did it best circa 95.


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## CroMoHo (Oct 20, 2009)

Rumpfy said:


> Assuming the brakes are original to the bike.


 Yes, the frame was produced without any type of rear cable stop, so it could'nt have accepted cantis.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Bontrager also made a "V brake" in 88 or 89 for the Kestrel Nitro show bike.

but yeah, 96 for Shimano production. Nico Voulliouz started using them in 95 on his GT DH bike. i remember seeing the Cap d'Ail pics. So trick!


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## CroMoHo (Oct 20, 2009)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Bontrager also made a "V brake" in 88 or 89 for the Kestrel Nitro show bike.
> 
> but yeah, 96 for Shimano production. Nico Voulliouz started using them in 95 on his GT DH bike. i remember seeing the Cap d'Ail pics. So trick!


 Figures, Shimano always steals the show and gets all the credit in the end!


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## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

Marinovative had the Cheap Trick as early as 91.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

blumarvel said:


> Figures, Shimano always steals the show and gets all the credit in the end!


Blame that on ill-informed consumers and not Shimano.

How many consumers went nuts over the "new" through axle cranks that Shimano "invented" 20 years after they were first introduced.


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## CroMoHo (Oct 20, 2009)

laffeaux said:


> Blame that on ill-informed consumers and not Shimano.
> 
> How many consumers went nuts over the "new" through axle cranks that Shimano "invented" 20 years after they were first introduced.


 Well that brings to mind another interesting character. (Gary Fisher), the inventer of the 29" wheel. But did'nt Diamond Back try something like that back in the days when Suntour was still in it's prime? Like I'm thinking '89-'91?


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## 1 cog frog (Dec 21, 2004)

Diamondback (overdrive), Bianchi (project 3,5,7), Willits (several), Specialized (Crossroads and Rock Combo) and others. The 1st 29" high volume tire (WTB Nano Raptor) helped get things moving to where they are today. Dirt Rag did a great article a while back on this topic.

http://www.dirtragmag.com/print/article.php?ID=894

My main ride is a 93 Diamondback Overdrive, and it is a fun bike to ride. Just put drop bars on it and trying to sort out the shifting before I post some pics.


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## CroMoHo (Oct 20, 2009)

1 cog frog said:


> Diamondback (overdrive), Bianchi (project 3,5,7), Willits (several), Specialized (Crossroads and Rock Combo) and others. The 1st 29" high volume tire (WTB Nano Raptor) helped get things moving to where they are today. Dirt Rag did a great article a while back on this topic.
> 
> http://www.dirtragmag.com/print/article.php?ID=894
> 
> My main ride is a 93 Diamondback Overdrive, and it is a fun bike to ride. Just put drop bars on it and trying to sort out the shifting before I post some pics.


 Sweet, I'll be looking forward to seeing those pics!
If I can figure out HOW to post pics, I would like to post a couple of my '96? Diamond Back Apex.


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

Yea, I remember that '96 was the year everything was "V"-brake, but I though it was at least a 2 year transition. The early ones sucked because of the linkages had a tendency to break. Remember the "rebuild kits?

If you guys say it's later I believe you. I was in a pretty anti-Shimano phase during that time and though In worked on it I didn't pay attention. I went from mostly running SunTour to Sachs.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

1 cog frog said:


> Diamondback (overdrive), Bianchi (project 3,5,7), Willits (several), Specialized (Crossroads and Rock Combo) and others. The 1st 29" high volume tire (WTB Nano Raptor) helped get things moving to where they are today. Dirt Rag did a great article a while back on this topic.
> 
> http://www.dirtragmag.com/print/article.php?ID=894
> 
> My main ride is a 93 Diamondback Overdrive, and it is a fun bike to ride. Just put drop bars on it and trying to sort out the shifting before I post some pics.


Dirt Rag's article is actually inaccurate in a number of ways so say the guys that made 29ers happen.

Also, the Rock Combo was a 26" wheel.

The story in a nutshell:

Wes Williams (Willits) was the one that pushed and pushed for a tire and for the concept. WTB dug the bikes and made some 29er frames for themselves and Gary Fisher and agreed to do the tire if Gary would agree to purchase (for OEM) said tires.

IMHO, the DB and Bianchi were merely beefy cross bikes that only measured out to be 28". Once you get a fat tire on there it all changes. Imagine your mtb with 1.5" tires on it - totally different ride.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

themanmonkey said:


> Yea, I remember that '96 was the year everything was "V"-brake, but I though it was at least a 2 year transition. The early ones sucked because of the linkages had a tendency to break. Remember the "rebuild kits?
> 
> If you guys say it's later I believe you. I was in a pretty anti-Shimano phase during that time and though In worked on it I didn't pay attention. I went from mostly running SunTour to Sachs.


I don't remember them breaking, but they'd get sloppy.


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## CroMoHo (Oct 20, 2009)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Dirt Rag's article is actually inaccurate in a number of ways so say the guys that made 29ers happen.
> 
> Also, the Rock Combo was a 26" wheel.
> 
> ...


 Well the thing that bugs me is that in a Gary Fisher brochure from a few years back, there was a portion in it where Gary was explaining HIS theory on '"29"' wheels and he said something to the extent of; "...and one day I asked myself "why has'nt anyone thought of this before?"'


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

blumarvel said:


> Well the thing that bugs me is that in a Gary Fisher brochure from a few years back, there was a portion in it where Gary was explaining HIS theory on '"29"' wheels and he said something to the extent of; "...and one day I asked myself "why has'nt anyone thought of this before?"'


Gary has been known to claim credit for things.  But maybe he just implying that it took a long time for it to happen.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> IMHO, the DB and Bianchi were merely beefy cross bikes that only measured out to be 28". Once you get a fat tire on there it all changes. Imagine your mtb with 1.5" tires on it - totally different ride.


Hmm, 28er just doesn't sound as good...


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## CroMoHo (Oct 20, 2009)

IF52 said:


> Hmm, 28er just doesn't sound as good...


 Deffinately not, but 26er still has a good ring to it to me!


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I don't remember them breaking, but they'd get sloppy.


The demo pair I got after Interbike (I guess it couldn't have been '93. . . '94 maybe) broke within a month. It was that little link between the pivots and usually broke at the pivot eye. It was most likely caused by the brake pivot bushings getting sloppy to start with and then just stress on the link. This was kinda my last straw with Shimano as far as trusting their products for about 5 years. I also saw a few others with the links broken. I think it was the XTs only that I saw with the problem. The XTRs might have been beefier and the LX didn't have the link.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

themanmonkey said:


> The demo pair I got after Interbike (I guess it couldn't have been '93. . . '94 maybe) broke within a month. It was that little link between the pivots and usually broke at the pivot eye. It was most likely caused by the brake pivot bushings getting sloppy to start with and then just stress on the link. This was kinda my last straw with Shimano as far as trusting their products for about 5 years. I also saw a few others with the links broken. I think it was the XTs only that I saw with the problem. The XTRs might have been beefier and the LX didn't have the link.


Did you always get demo parts 3 years before they were out?


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Did you always get demo parts 3 years before they were out?


Nope, like I said at the top some of those years are mixed up a bit. The story is we went to Interbike as a small freaky shop in Seattle known for mechanical miracles (The Bikesmith if you've ever heard of it). They were showing the "V"-Brake to folks if you asked and there were some spy shots of racers using them at the time. I told them it was just like the Cheap Trick brakes I was currently running and they argued that it was totally different.

Long story short we get a pair of brakes in the mail a month later to try out. Like I said they broke. They then got sent back with a long note and we never heard back. I spent a lot of time riding prototype and demo parts from '91-'96 when I left Seattle. Being known as someone who liked to break parts and could sometimes fix them helped.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

themanmonkey said:


> Nope, like I said at the top some of those years are mixed up a bit. The story is we went to Interbike as a small freaky shop in Seattle known for mechanical miracles (The Bikesmith if you've ever heard of it). They were showing the "V"-Brake to folks if you asked and there were some spy shots of racers using them at the time. I told them it was just like the Cheap Trick brakes I was currently running and they argued that it was totally different.
> 
> Long story short we get a pair of brakes in the mail a month later to try out. Like I said they broke. They then got sent back with a long note and we never heard back. I spent a lot of time riding prototype and demo parts from '91-'96 when I left Seattle. Being known as someone who liked to break parts and could sometimes fix them helped.


gotcha. I've got a friend like that.

I think the linkage was called Parallel Push, if I recall.


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## pete_mcc (Aug 19, 2006)

blumarvel said:


> Well the thing that bugs me is that in a Gary Fisher brochure from a few years back, there was a portion in it where Gary was explaining HIS theory on '"29"' wheels and he said something to the extent of; "...and one day I asked myself "why has'nt anyone thought of this before?"'


I think Fisher was talking about his experiments with 29ers back in the early 80s with Charlie Kelly and Geoff Apps, but as the tyre supply was a little poor and 26" was becoming a standard it died. Geoff Apps carried on developing the idea over here, but it didn't really catch on, he was a little short on cool as you can see from this site:

http://www.james-walters.net/cleland/the-first-29er.html


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

pete_mcc said:


> I think Fisher was talking about his experiments with 29ers back in the early 80s with Charlie Kelly and Geoff Apps, but as the tyre supply was a little poor and 26" was becoming a standard it died. Geoff Apps carried on developing the idea over here, but it didn't really catch on, he was a little short on cool as you can see from this site:
> 
> http://www.james-walters.net/cleland/the-first-29er.html


Ritchey and Merz made a few early 650b mountain bikes that used the Nokian tires so I'm guessing that's what they got from Apps?


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## alexk (Sep 30, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> gotcha. I've got a friend like that.
> 
> I think the linkage was called Parallel Push, if I recall.


Correct on Parallel Push.

My XT-739 V-brakes had that same sloppiness develop, no breakage, but it became such a nuisance to set the brake up properly that I replaced them with Avids.


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I don't remember them breaking, but they'd get sloppy.


+1

All those little washers!


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

IF52 said:


> Hmm, 28er just doesn't sound as good...


There are plenty of Willit's running around with 28"er on the top tube.


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## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

Not to imply that my memory is perfect, but surprised how fuzzy your memories are with regard to this, people who chime in an say exactly which year some obscure frame was made judging solely on a rear dropout can't say when one of the biggest changes to mtb's took place.
I remember seeing XT V's in the summer of '95. There were not really enough of them as I recall, and some people were unhappy with that stubby little XT brake lever, and switched them out for Real's which had two positions for the lump on the end of the cable, meaning you could adjust leverage by removing and repositioning the cable. But they Real's still didn't pull quite enough cable.
XTR's were available around the same time. The XTR's were far better, even though they shared a parallel push link similar to the ones the XT's had, which we all remember as being rattly and chintsy. The reason the XTR's were better was because they had nut and cone ball bearings with adjustable preload at the main pivot, and far less play in the parallel push thingy. 
As for the IRD Widgets and the Paul Crosstop they were based on, I can't say when they came out, but I can comment they are not the same as a V-Brake, absolutely different feel, set-up, braking power, and mechanism.


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

uphiller said:


> Not to imply that my memory is perfect, but surprised how fuzzy your memories are with regard to this, people who chime in an say exactly which year some obscure frame was made judging solely on a rear dropout can't say when one of the biggest changes to mtb's took place.


Are you talking to me? A quote here would help. At the time few people saw the "V"-brake as a game changer. There were plenty of good brakes out there they just didn't have the potential of the OE market. Those of us in the industry like any industry have specializations and personal interests and our memories reflect that. We also see "amazing game changing parts" every day. How many of them actually make a splash. . . very few.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

jeff said:


> There are plenty of Willit's running around with 28"er on the top tube.


I was teasing.

Besides, Willits are 28 _inchers_ aren't they, not 28ers.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

IF52 said:


> I was teasing.
> 
> Besides, Willits are 28 _inchers_ aren't they, not 28ers.


yeah, he made those before "the tire" came out. He used Continental Goliaths I think which were 700 x 38 or so and had a fairly wide center ridge on its tread.


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## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

themanmonkey said:


> Are you talking to me? A quote here would help. At the time few people saw the "V"-brake as a game changer. There were plenty of good brakes out there they just didn't have the potential of the OE market. Those of us in the industry like any industry have specializations and personal interests and our memories reflect that. We also see "amazing game changing parts" every day. How many of them actually make a splash. . . very few.


Argh. There was no criticism whatsoever intended in that "amazing", or anywhere else . Of course everyone has their special interests. Mine happens to be brakes. I still do feel like V-Brakes were a game changer, and not something trivial. About their being good alternatives to Shimano's stuff that just never got picked up because the companies were too small, yes I agree. And also the fact none of them made a compatible brake lever was a minus.
I stand by my statement that V's and linkage brakes like Paul's and Wasatch's etc have very little to do with one another on a mechanical level, except that they were intended to solve the same problem of rear suspension and rim brakes.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> yeah, he made those before "the tire" came out. He used Continental Goliaths I think which were 700 x 38 or so and had a fairly wide center ridge on its tread.


What's funny is even after the Nano came out he was still using the old decals on his new builds. And you're correct......28 or 29"er. Has it been ten years already?


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## CroMoHo (Oct 20, 2009)

uphiller said:


> Argh. There was no criticism whatsoever intended in that "amazing", or anywhere else . Of course everyone has their special interests. Mine happens to be brakes. I still do feel like V-Brakes were a game changer, and not something trivial. About their being good alternatives to Shimano's stuff that just never got picked up because the companies were too small, yes I agree. And also the fact none of them made a compatible brake lever was a minus.
> I stand by my statement that V's and linkage brakes like Paul's and Wasatch's etc have very little to do with one another on a mechanical level, except that they were intended to solve the same problem of rear suspension and rim brakes.


 In case you were, in part, referring to me about "chiming in" and deciding the year of some oscure frame, (Diamond Back Apex), based on the year a certain part came out, I just wanted to ease your mind. I've been thinking back in the archives of my mind for a few weeks about what the year of the frame might be. First I called DB, (now owned by Raleigh), and they said that based on the serial # they could only "guess" that it was most likely a '95, and a couple other people on this site have told me that '95 was the last year DB made the Apex in steel. However, that does'nt explain why the bike had no rear brake cable stop if it is true that Shimano "V-brakes" came out as SPEC parts on many bikes in '96 and not sooner. So anyway, I drew the conclusion that my frame must be a 96 model.
If anybody else has more accurate info about this, I would much appreciate it. Thanks.


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Dirt Rag's article is actually inaccurate in a number of ways so say the guys that made 29ers happen.


Inaccurate isn't the word really, more like incredible. Just count how many I's are used in the article by the author and you have to wonder:skep: Let's just say that there are quite a few folks that were around then that remember it going down quite a bit differently.

The Goliaths were 45c btw, still running one on the back of the Townie with a Nano on the front and this pic nicely illustrates the difference between 28" and 29".







and the use of V brakes also......


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

You always show up at just the right time. I still love that bike.


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## GrahamWallace (Oct 30, 2008)

pete_mcc said:


> I think Fisher was talking about his experiments with 29ers back in the early 80s with Charlie Kelly and Geoff Apps, but as the tyre supply was a little poor and 26" was becoming a standard it died. Geoff Apps carried on developing the idea over here, but it didn't really catch on, he was a little short on cool as you can see from this site:
> 
> http://www.james-walters.net/cleland/the-first-29er.html


Compared to the glossy publicity and modern style of US based mountain bikes Apps' bikes were more traditional and way less cool. So in 1984 I rejected Apps' designs and bought myself a cool looking English made Ritchey clone. Since their where few organised events I took my new bike and joined Geoff Apps' rides but my new bike performed badly in the English mud. I found it difficult to keep up with the pace of Apps' bikes and on some difficult sections had no option to get of and push whilst the others waited for me. Now how uncool is that?


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## GrahamWallace (Oct 30, 2008)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Ritchey and Merz made a few early 650b mountain bikes that used the Nokian tires so I'm guessing that's what they got from Apps?


This is a Quote from Geoff Apps...

"I built only the one 700C machine and sent some of these tyres over to Charlie Kelly and Gary Fisher, who had built a frame in readiness. They loved them and really appreciated the ride they gave, compared to the 26-inch tyres, and also loved the success they had at the races. As far as they were concerned, these 29-inch tyres were the way to go".

Geoff Apps told me that he also sent both 650b Nokia tyres to Gary Fisher and I have read somewhere online that the frames for these tyres were built by Tom Ritchey.


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