# So you want to get a MOTO to train for DH racing on. Trail bike or Track Bike?



## FlyingIrish (Jul 25, 2009)

To train for downhill would you get a trail bike, a track bike, or something that could do both?


I think I have the answer, but what's yours?


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

Trail bike if you have a legit place to ride it.


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## OUTsane(the original) (Oct 21, 2009)

KTM EXC450/530 street legal Enduro. Enduro is WAY more similar to DH than MX is. Also, if your suspension is valved for MX it won't do so well on the trail, and if it's valved for the trail, it wont do so well on the MX track.


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Yep. I'm with OUTsane (sort of). Get a true off-road, hare scrambles, GNCC,desert racer. Going fast on a DH course (not a groomed park/jump run) on a bike feels most like going over natural, off-road terrain on a motorcycle to me.

You can start with a MX bike but you'll need some suspension mods, or you can go with a bike designed for that kind of stuff like a KTM 450/505XC-F, Honda CRF450X, WR450, KTM 300XC, etc.


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## OUTsane(the original) (Oct 21, 2009)

KRob said:


> Yep. I'm with OUTsane (sort of). Get a true off-road, hare scrambles, GNCC,desert racer. Going fast on a DH course (not a groomed park/jump run) on a bike feels most like going over natural, off-road terrain on a motorcycle to me.
> 
> You can start with a MX bike but you'll need some suspension mods, or you can go with a bike designed for that kind of stuff like a KTM 450/505XC-F, Honda CRF450X, WR450, KTM 300XC, etc.


The reason I suggested the EXCs over the XC-Fs is that since they come with a plate you have more options as to where you can ride. If you're going to be on closed courses only, then go with the XC-Fs. With a plate however, you can enter some DS(dualsport) rides(some have some pretty decent hero sections) and Enduros, where you might have to link trails with short stints of pavement. I also just like having the option to ride to and from the trails if I feel like it, not to mention that I'm pretty big on Supermoto.:thumbsup:


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Get a KTM 250XC*. KTM's XC line has power delivery, gear ratios, and suspension that fall between motocross and trail bikes. They're made for trail races but work well pretty much anywhere. The suspension can be made soft enough for rocky trails or firm enough for big jumps with the clickers.

As a downhiller you'll really like an auto-clutch and MTB style brakes. The auto-clutch is a centrifugal clutch that can be added to any bike and eliminates the need for a clutch lever so you can run the front brake to the left lever and the rear to the right (bikes other than KTM will need a new left lever).

With your right index finger doing the rear braking you won't need help from the engine so you'll much prefer the minimal engine braking, almost freewheeling feel, of a 2 stroke. When you're used to the pedal/coast feel of a DH bike, a 4 stroke feels like it's always accelerating or braking unless you carefully balance the throttle. 2 strokes also weight 25-40 pounds less.

*If you're light you can get away with the 200XC or 200XC-W for an even lighter, narrower, more MTB feel. If you're heavy or ride steep climbs at high altitude get the 300XC for electric motor feeling torque right off idle and insane top end horsepower.


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## LonesomeCowboyBert (Apr 11, 2008)

FlyingIrish said:


> To train for downhill would you get a trail bike, a track bike, or something that could do both?
> 
> I think I have the answer, but what's yours?


Personaly to train for downhill.......id get a downhill bike
Ive heard the arguements for cross training and agree that cross training will never do any harm and ultimately it can keep your interest up if your getting a little bored with your usual regime, but at the end of the day, its never gonna be as valid as using the same type of machine you are going to race on

saying that, get an enduro/trail bike, motocross bikes are tuned for punchy point and squirt stuff, not very valid for the sort of momentum preserving technique you need for when your legs or gravity are powering the bike


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## OUTsane(the original) (Oct 21, 2009)

LonesomeCowboyBert said:


> Personaly to train for downhill.......id get a downhill bike
> Ive heard the arguements for cross training and agree that cross training will never do any harm and ultimately it can keep your interest up if your getting a little bored with your usual regime, but at the end of the day, its never gonna be as valid as using the same type of machine you are going to race on
> 
> saying that, get an enduro/trail bike, motocross bikes are tuned for punchy point and squirt stuff, not very valid for the sort of momentum preserving technique you need for when your legs or gravity are powering the bike


I understand what you're saying, become so comfortable that you can do it blindfolded and everything becomes preemptive, you correct before you need to, you know your equipment and yourself inside out. However, after throwing around a 250lbs bike for a while a 40lbs MTB will feel light as air. It's like training with ankle weights and a weight jacket.

The way I look at it, every minute spent on the MTB makes me a better Moto rider(especially with lift parks so easily accessible), and every minute on the Moto makes me better on the MTB.


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## Scary (Jun 11, 2007)

Don't get a Mx bike and go to the track.You'll wonder why you pedal anything when you can scare the sh1t outta yourself at any point you want.It's way to fun,you'll come back to the dh bike and everything will be small and slow.---if you do come back. The cowboy should stick to his horse.


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## jtemple (Feb 3, 2010)

I have this:










It's a big dual sport, Husky TE630. Probably not what you're looking for if you want to ride a lot of technical trails or jump it.

The smaller Husky TE line would be a good choice, if you want something street legal. Check out thumpertalk.com, advrider.com, cafehusky.com for more info.


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## ruralrider528 (Nov 8, 2008)

Scary said:


> Don't get a Mx bike and go to the track.You'll wonder why you pedal anything when you can scare the sh1t outta yourself at any point you want.It's way to fun,you'll come back to the dh bike and everything will be small and slow.---if you do come back. The cowboy should stick to his horse.


I have to respectfully disagree, I never get as much excitement out of practicing MX as I do downhilling. I am much more agressive with the DH bike and I enjoy it more. But all mx tracks are practically groomed compared to a downhill trail, I have yet to see interlaced roots or rock gardens on mx tracks. Its usually just loose rocks ruts and jumps. I believe that there are much more types of obstacles that come into play with a DH trail, MX and DH are 2 different animals but both are fun. If you want to cross train with a motorcycle get a trail/enduro since you will deal with similar obstacles wet roots immovable rocks trees etc.


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Lelandjt said:


> Get a KTM 250XC*. KTM's XC line has power delivery, gear ratios, and suspension that fall between motocross and trail bikes. They're made for trail races but work well pretty much anywhere. The suspension can be made soft enough for rocky trails or firm enough for big jumps with the clickers.
> 
> As a downhiller you'll really like an auto-clutch and MTB style brakes. The auto-clutch is a centrifugal clutch that can be added to any bike and eliminates the need for a clutch lever so you can run the front brake to the left lever and the rear to the right (bikes other than KTM will need a new left lever).
> 
> ...


Totally agree with you Leland. All good points that I wished I had made myself. Had never thought of using the auto-clutch so you could mount the rear brake on the handle bar. Makes sense for mtb DH cross-training.

I did think of the lighter 200/250 two strokes being a_ little_ more mtb-like after I posted but didn't edit. Good observation. Taking that thought a little further, a 125 2-stroke may even be a better choice for cross training because it helps you learn to conserve corner speed and momentum because of the weaker motor.

Also agree with ruralrider. The roots, rocks, logs, boulders, trees of enduro, desert, and crosscountry type races much more closely resemble what's going on on your typical DH course.

And I get what you're saying OUTsane about having a street-legal true off-road capable moto like the exc450/530. It really opens up the possibilities for connecting trails etc...


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## Internal14 (Jan 21, 2004)

I dunno guys. I have a KTM 450exc and do harescrambles with it and tons of trail riding as well. 
But also in the bike shed I have a YZ426 that is my workhorse/loaner bike and I tell you what, riding that MX bike offroad is more beneficial, TO ME, than ripping the trails on the big orange bike. 
I feel that the Yamaha is more like the DH bike in how fast it reacts to your thoughts. I want to go left, you go left, NOW. The KTM trail bike is a little slower, easier to ride fast.

There is something exciting about grabbing throttle and having the bike launch. I have done the carb work on the KTM and have proper gearing, but it's just not an arm stretcher like the YZ is. 

For me the reason to ride the moto bikes is to bring my reaction times up and things happen slower on the KTM even though I'm going faster, if that makes any sense. 

So I feel for my purposes at least, the Yamaha is a better 'training for DH' tool because it's a bit faster/twitchy trail bike.

If I'm doing a 2-3hr trail ride, the Yamaha often times gets the nod because it's just more of a handful/fun bike to hold onto. If I'm racing or doing longer trail rides the KTM is called into duty because I can more easily go fast on it for longer periods of time. Sometimes a trail ride isn't about being the fastest in teh group, but who has the most fun wins. ;-)


Anyway, that's my two pennies worth of experience.

The other reason to get a MX bike is that they're cheaper....but get yourself a green sticker bike so you can ride year round.


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## eride1 (Oct 11, 2010)

i got a ktm 690smc supermotard but its not for training, its just for fun. if you motocross than you know that the skills you learn from track and trail riding can apply to downhill, but are 2 totally different things. downhillers all gravitate towards moto cause its just the next step and the find for another rush. i like downhilling better but its always great to get away with your buds and get stupid on your moto. so unless you have years of riding under your belt i dont think moto will be a big help as youll be learning the ropes of riding a dirt bike first before it plays a role on your downhilling. either way, youll have a [email protected] load of fun.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Internal14 said:


> IBut also in the bike shed I have a YZ426 that is my workhorse/loaner bike and I tell you what, riding that MX bike offroad is more beneficial, TO ME, than ripping the trails on the big orange bike.
> I feel that the Yamaha is more like the DH bike in how fast it reacts to your thoughts. I want to go left, you go left, NOW. The KTM trail bike is a little slower, easier to ride fast.


That's cuz you have a 4 stroke EXC. Softly tuned and heavy. A 2 stroke XC will have the excitement and handling (actually even better) of your MX bike but should get better traction and be capable of getting the suspension softer for really rocky trails.

As for the 125 suggestion, as a mountain biker I want to just ride and not have to focus on the engine a lot. Small displacements don't have enough torque to mindlessly accelerate out of turns or run up a steep hill. My advice is to go as small and light as you can before you have to slip the clutch a lot or shift constantly. If you're light and live in a flat area a 150XC could work.

Here's my bike:


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## eride1 (Oct 11, 2010)

Lelandjt said:


> That's cuz you have a 4 stroke EXC. Softly tuned and heavy. A 2 stroke XC will have the excitement and handling (actually even better) of your MX bike but should get better traction and be capable of getting the suspension softer for really rocky trails.
> 
> As for the 125 suggestion, as a mountain biker I want to just ride and not have to focus on the engine a lot. Small displacements don't have enough torque to mindlessly accelerate out of turns or run up a steep hill. My advice is to go as small and light as you can before you have to slip the clutch a lot or shift constantly. If you're light and live in a flat area a 150XC could work.
> 
> Here's my bike:


nice.

here's mine collecting dust


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Lelandjt said:


> Here's my bike:


How do you like the snorkel?


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## jtemple (Feb 3, 2010)

eride1 said:


> here's mine collecting dust


Mine collects dust as well. I just bought it this year (my first offroad bike, coming from several years of sportbike riding) and suddenly lost the urge to ride it. I'd rather ride my MTBs.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

NorKal said:


> How do you like the snorkel?


Love it. I thought I'd take it off at the MX track but I notice no difference in power and it weighs less than 2lbs so I leave it on. It really takes the edge off the exhaust noise and my friends say that my bike is almost silent from more than 100ft away. The next step is a spiral wrap of heat resistant silicone rubber around the expansion chamber to quiet the pinging sound a 2stroke makes.


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## rmk166 (Apr 19, 2010)

One thing to remember is that the KTM EXC's have heavier flywheel weights. This means that their engines don't rev so fast, which is why the YZ feels like its faster even though I'm sure the KTM probably has more power.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Lelandjt said:


> The next step is a spiral wrap of heat resistant silicone rubber around the expansion chamber to quiet the pinging sound a 2stroke makes.


No way, I love that sound!


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

I would get an XC bike...motorcycles just lead to bad injuries...you just want to go to fast


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## Scary (Jun 11, 2007)

I will disagree,moto got me from kinda front expert,to mid slo pro with 3 years off.Never rode a motorcycle till i was 35.Moto,i mean "MX" will up your mental game 200% .You can always dumb down a real mx bike,easily.A trail bike is alot harder to upgrade to take harder stuff.

Also,Rekluse makes the "core exp" anti stall clutch.Its amazing>,You can start in 4th gear,and never touch the clutch at all.

My bike is covered in dirt,too.


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## mexi mike (Jan 20, 2009)

One thing riding trail on moto has helped me with is looking further ahead, you hit stuff so much faster and often on a dirtbike that it teaches you quick. When you jump back on the dh bike, things slow down a lot and lines become more clear. Another thing is smashing through rocks, riding really tech rocks on a heavy dirtbike increases your smashability on a dh bike 10x.
Living in southern CA it is much easier to ride trails on a dirt bike than a dh bike, especially if its plated. Doesnt make much sense, but its probably the main reason i bought a plated 525exc. Also lifting a 270lb bike off you 5-10 times a ride makes your dh whips pretty sick. I ride my dualsport probably 3-4 times as much as i ride my dh bike, and spend about the same amount of money doing it. What draws me to the ktm is i cover a ton more ground, no lines to wait in, no snobby **** heads, and it's basicly an endless downhill. don't get me wrong though, the dh bike will always have it's place for when i need to give my friends that show me up on dirtbikes a run for their money on the dh bikes...

and a pic of when it was pretty


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## watermoccasin (Jan 28, 2004)

At first I bought an mx bike and converted it for trail use. Now I have one mx bike set up for trails and one set up for mx. Trail riding made me better in technical sections, mx made me better at cornering and jumping, both made me faster.

Of all the bikes I have ridden, a 2-stroke mx bike or KTM 2-stroke trail bike feels the most like a mountain bike because of the lighter weight, lower center of gravity, and lack of engine braking. And I have yet to ride a 4-stroke trail bike that I like - they all feel too heavy and slow.


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## FROGMAN524 (Sep 23, 2008)

Ktm 450 Sx-f


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## bighitboy (May 16, 2004)

Id get a woods bike. But as a beginner stay away from the 2S. Rebuilds and too much hassle.

Id look for a 250F as in XCF250 or SXF 250


I have ridden a 250F for 2 years now, I am either going to see if they make an XCW 350 efi or I am going to a 300 XC for next year.

Also, a mnt bike feels like a feather after riding a moto.

Make sure to get bark busters as well, save your hands/wrist!


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## jonnytoast (Sep 23, 2010)

Ive raced motocross since age 8. Im now 22 and just recently got into DH. Id have to agree though Riding my DH bike is much more intense Then racing on my dirt bike on a maintained track. regardless of how big the breaking bumps get coming into corners and how deep certain ruts get the suspension and size of my dirt bike made it really easy. its been a crazy transition from racing MX to Racing DH. Id definatly get an enduro bike and ride woods. I think you would get more X training out of it for the DH sport. OH by the way. I completely quit racing MX for DH thats how much more i love DH lol. pic related its me just last year at one of my last races.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

bighitboy said:


> But as a beginner stay away from the 2strokes. Rebuilds and too much hassle.


After 2 years on your 250F it's time to check the top end for wear and replace what's needed. After that you won't think a 2stroke rebuild is hard and they both need to be checked after the same number of hours. The only extra hassle is mixing oil in your gas can. The benefit is much lighter weight and less engine braking.


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

I love my WR450F. It's heavier than the KX250 I used to have but the power delivery is so smooth. 
I pretty much only ride trails and I have some really tight stuff where I live. 
It's very complimentary to DH riding. 
The Auto clutches are very nifty indeed when set up correctly. Rekluse, Revlok, EFM, They are all pretty good.
I don't really have a preference for 2 stroke or 4-stroke.
There are pro's and cons to both. My WR450 is street legal and I don't like to mix gas/oil at the gas station.
Going from a 2 stroke to a 4 stroke, I noticed the engine braking and could care less. It helps a lot in steep descents though. One thing to bear in mind is that an auto clutch drastically reduces any engine braking due to the fact that when you release the throttle the clutch disengages. Or you could always pull in the clutch lever. 

If I was specifically buying a Moto for training, I would buy a MX version and add a few things to make it trail worthy and ride both track and trail, 
The track will make the jumps on a DH bike seem like child's play and the speeds attained in the woods will dull you to all but the fastest speeds on a DH bike. 

As with both disciplines, First thing to do with any new bike is to get the suspension tuned to you.


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## FlyingIrish (Jul 25, 2009)

wow you guys are awesome so much information! Stoked to find out that the trail bike is the way to go. Ive actually been loking at a KTM 300XCW with aftermarket suspension, pipe, bark busters, 3.2 gallon gas tank and a GPR Stabilizer!


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Looks good, but the stabilizer will make you lazy. I'd sell it or just ride at the lightest setting.


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

FlyingIrish said:


> wow you guys are awesome so much information! Stoked to find out that the trail bike is the way to go. Ive actually been loking at a KTM 300XCW with aftermarket suspension, pipe, bark busters, 3.2 gallon gas tank and a GPR Stabilizer!


Is this your 1st dirt bike? Cause the 300 is a beast... Well it's not a CR500 but it's not a beginner bike per se...


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## yzfrider (Nov 5, 2010)

I guess this is a good thread to pop my cherry on. I've had two and four strokes. I just sold a yz250 (2smoke) and purchased a yz450, all this after riding a big bore yz250f earlier in the year.

Here's my opinion. Ride for fun, if you have more fun on the trails, ride them. I personally love the track, so that's what I ride. I would recommend a yz250 (get an aluminum frame). Don't worry about setting it up for track or trail, just learn what the suspension is doing, and make adjustments accordingly. I too have ridden on a rekluse, and enjoyed it. The term automatic is somewhat misleading, as it wont shift the bike. Additionally, I would recommend a flywheel weight. This will smooth out the powerband. I think you will find this beneficial on either discipline. 

I hesitate to recommend ktm, as they tend to be expensive. Additionally, the Yamaha dealer in my area is great, the ktm dealer is not so great.

I think either trail or track will make you a better downhiller, but its all about having fun. I have fun riding xc near my house, love riding down hill, and the mx track. If I'm not having fun with one, I'll take a break, and do the other.


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## beaupre716 (May 22, 2009)

Many of the best downhillers (Hill, Peat, Minnaar, Gwin) ride moto regularly or came from moto. I think moto is better training for DH because of the intensity, which is an important component of any racing. Trail riding can be done with intensity, but I think moto fosters it more naturally. Plus, if you ride motocross bikes for a long time, enduro bikes feel too slow and too soft. I wouldn't dream of trading my CRF450R for anything else.


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## charging_rhinos (Jul 29, 2008)

get a motocross race bike. I've raced MX for years, and trail riding bikes aren't even comparable as far as handling and overall performance go. Enduro bikes like that LTM you're looking at are definitely fun, but they only like to go fast in a straight line. Forget jumping on them. It's plain scary. Those huge desert tanks, gushy suspension, etc will become more of a nuisance than a blessing very quickly. Trust me on this one, I went through this same thing years ago. 

If you want to improve your mountain biking skills, corners are usually where you'll want to focus a lot of your efforts. Full-on MX race bikes corner incredibly well compared to their squishier trail bike cousins, and will drastically improve your skills. 

Oh yeah, and the agility at speed of an MX race bike will DEFINITELY make you more comfortable when bombing on your pedal bike. Enduro bikes are more of a point-gas-hold on kind of thing. Not anything like the feel of a dh bicycle.


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

fusion of sorts...


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

It sounds like neither _beaupre716_ or _charging_rhinos_ have ridden a late model KTM 2stroke trail bike. They are lighter than your MX bikes and the suspension is firmer than the trail bikes you've ridden. You definitely don't want to fill the tank for a couple moto laps and you do want to firm up the clickers but they feel like race bikes because they are.


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## OUTsane(the original) (Oct 21, 2009)

singlesprocket said:


> fusion of sorts...


Ah, you've found the Motoped. Those things are cool:thumbsup: https://www.motopeds.com/

Also check out the FX Mountain Moto https://www.fxbikes.com/


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## beaupre716 (May 22, 2009)

Lelandjt said:


> It sounds like neither _beaupre716_ or _charging_rhinos_ have ridden a late model KTM 2stroke trail bike. They are lighter than your MX bikes and the suspension is firmer than the trail bikes you've ridden. You definitely don't want to fill the tank for a couple moto laps and you do want to firm up the clickers but they feel like race bikes because they are.


I'm sure the KTM trail two-strokes are a pleasure. But they still aren't motocross bikes. I don't doubt that you can spin some laps on one, but they're still not going to interest any serious motocross racer.


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## Fox787 (Jun 2, 2005)

charging_rhinos said:


> get a motocross race bike. I've raced MX for years, and trail riding bikes aren't even comparable as far as handling and overall performance go. Enduro bikes like that LTM you're looking at are definitely fun, but they only like to go fast in a straight line. Forget jumping on them. It's plain scary. Those huge desert tanks, gushy suspension, etc will become more of a nuisance than a blessing very quickly. Trust me on this one, I went through this same thing years ago.
> 
> If you want to improve your mountain biking skills, corners are usually where you'll want to focus a lot of your efforts. Full-on MX race bikes corner incredibly well compared to their squishier trail bike cousins, and will drastically improve your skills.
> 
> Oh yeah, and the agility at speed of an MX race bike will DEFINITELY make you more comfortable when bombing on your pedal bike. Enduro bikes are more of a point-gas-hold on kind of thing. Not anything like the feel of a dh bicycle.


Wait... let me get this straight, your saying enduro bikes are just point and shoot? thats basically what MX is. Also what type of trail bikes are you talking about here like a crf 230 or a xr 250? If anything an enduro bike is more like downhill considering your actually using it IN THE WOODS.


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## Fox787 (Jun 2, 2005)

You really have no idea what your talking about. how ever i doubt a "true" motocross bike could stay with one of the 2 stroke race bikes in a hare scramble or enduro. The suspension is simply to harsh and powerband is to narrow take for example this enduro...
https://www.adrenalinevision.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=25&Itemid=8

How about these lame hare scrambles?





In no way shape or form are any of those "trail bikes" actually slow.

Your arguments are even less accurate if you look at enduro cross... hmm lets get a video link going here too.





lets see extreme enduros these are more nuts than any mx track would ever be. guess what, a see of orange.





Basically what it comes down is what do you plan on riding. If you want to do the stuff in these videos get the 300 maybe a ktm 250. If you really want a mtn bike feel go with a 200. I love mine.


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

@Fox787,
That enduro-cross video looks like the guided tour I just took in Costa Rica after a huge rainstorm. That sh*t will wear you out.

And not all those guys are riding 2-strokes!


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## Fox787 (Jun 2, 2005)

wormvine said:


> @Fox787,
> That enduro-cross video looks like the guided tour I just took in Costa Rica after a huge rainstorm. That sh*t will wear you out.
> 
> And not all those guys are riding 2-strokes!


But there all "trail bikes"

Idk im tierd of all these mx guys saying its like a walk in the park to ride actually off road. I tried taking my friend riding one day we came to a log he had to LIFT his bike over a log at the time he was almost in the lead for the point in the local motocross scene


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

Fox787 said:


> But there all "trail bikes"
> 
> Idk im tierd of all these mx guys saying its like a walk in the park to ride actually off road. I tried taking my friend riding one day we came to a log he had to LIFT his bike over a log at the time he was almost in the lead for the point in the local motocross scene


Oh I hear you...
I have a local trail here that has literally 20-30 logs on it all the while climbing and twisting on steep woods singletrack. Both disciplines are challenging and require huge endurance and upper body strength. 10 non-stop laps on a Moto track is rough. But people love their niches. It's embedded into human nature. Unfortunately....


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## Loser_guy (Jun 14, 2008)

A few laps of that would surely whip you into shape. Or just plane whip you? Idk..


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## beaupre716 (May 22, 2009)

Fox787 said:


> You really have no idea what your talking about.


Are you responding to me or the other guy?


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## FROGMAN524 (Sep 23, 2008)

2011 yz450f is looking good too went and took a look last weekend


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## jtemple (Feb 3, 2010)

Loser_guy said:


> A few laps of that would surely whip you into shape. Or just plane whip you? Idk..


Love it! I'd probably die doing that. I'm a terrible off-road moto rider.


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## rep_1969 (Mar 25, 2004)

Loser_guy said:


> A few laps of that would surely whip you into shape. Or just plane whip you? Idk..


WOW . . . . THAT'S INSANE.


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## yzfrider (Nov 5, 2010)

FROGMAN524 said:


> 2011 yz450f is looking good too went and took a look last weekend


Save some money and buy a 10 if youcan find one. :thumbsup:


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## FlyingIrish (Jul 25, 2009)

OK --- So you guys know this is basically the terrain I'm thinking of riding.

(This is not me promoting a helmet but showing you what its all about in POZO, CA -- This is where I'll be living near next year around spring/ summer -- But on top of that, this helmet is THE SH*T for riding. I got one after a concussion and I have cranked my head a few times since then, had it inspected and it's all good- my melon also stayed intact- learn about it and ask me if you dont know!)










And A NOTE to all of you!!! This is probably some of the best skills based training you could ever do for MTB!!! NO??? I've been sessioning some jumps lately that I've just bee SENDING and It's been so benefitial to have jumped on many occasions a dirtbike.


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## beaupre716 (May 22, 2009)

Cool video. If you'll be pushing like Woods does in the video, I'd definitely go toward the moto side of the spectrum (notice that he's riding a RM-Z450 with a desert tank.) You could ride most of that terrain with most dirt bikes, but a motocross bike will urge you to ride it more aggressively--particularly the bigger hits and rougher sections. 

Should be fun either way though--what a cool network of trails.


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## FROGMAN524 (Sep 23, 2008)

yzfrider said:


> Save some money and buy a 10 if youcan find one. :thumbsup:


What makes you say that?


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## FlyingIrish (Jul 25, 2009)

Oh solid thanks for that heads up! Yeah I ride pretty fast on the DH (podium expert 19-29) and plan to ride a moto with the intent of pushing it!

Roger that thanks for the heads up!


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

FROGMAN524 said:


> What makes you say that?


Cuz the 2011 YZ450 is unchanged from the 2010. I however, am suspicious of used 4strokes unless you really believe the riding and maintenance history. Just too much that could be worn and hard to inspect.


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## charging_rhinos (Jul 29, 2008)

Lelandjt said:


> It sounds like neither _beaupre716_ or _charging_rhinos_ have ridden a late model KTM 2stroke trail bike. They are lighter than your MX bikes and the suspension is firmer than the trail bikes you've ridden. You definitely don't want to fill the tank for a couple moto laps and you do want to firm up the clickers but they feel like race bikes because they are.


Ridden them. honestly, they aren't mx race bikes. Their handling is wrong, their weight distribution is a little off, and their linkage and shock rates are wrong for track riding. Sorry.

This whole argument of enduro vs mx bikes is so stupid, but it happens every time the topic is brought up. It seems like the enduro racers are constantly on the defensive about their bikes and the terrain they like to ride. Why? Nobody who has a brain will say that enduro is a lesser sport than mx. It's like they're the Army trying to prove their toughness to the Marines. So pointless. Nobody said you or your bikes sucked, enduro boys!! Both are great bikes, but they are not good at crossing over into the other's territory. BUT!!! If I had to pick one, I'd say an mx race bike would do slightly better on an enduro race circuit than an enduro on an mx track (providing the mx has the fuel capacity to last for an enduro). I've raced for many years, and I trail ride a LOT to practice for mx. It's great training and makes me a better rider and racer. It's also a lot of fun. I have ridden both enduro and mx courses at competitive levels. I've ridden them both on 2 and 4 stroke enduro and mx race bikes. I can consistently ride enduro with better agility and faster times on an mx race bike, unless the trail requires taller gearing, like the Baja or something. I've found a technique for riding enduro on an mx bike, and it works great for me. Granted, I'd probably run out of gas after 45 minutes in a hare scramble, but I'd be darn fast before then.

@ Fox787, I don't have to pick my bike up every time I see a log. That comment was pretty weak. Your friend obviously isn't all that well-rounded a rider if he had to do that, and it's not his mx bike's fault. Sorry, but that's the truth if he got off and walked. I never once said enduro was easy. It's very challenging in all aspects. But try and do a :30+1 lap mx race at 100% speed. It's not easy either. I dare say it's substantially more physically demanding than the overall drain from a hare scramble race (not counting those extra long 24 hour killfest enduros).

@ Lelandjt, if those KTM enduro bikes are truly race bikes as you say, why aren't they being ridden in the MX nationals or the supercross series? There's your answer. Same reason that you don't see a CR250 2 stroker in a Hare Scramble.

To the OP, sorry for the minor rant there. Basically, either type of bike/riding type will be super fun, and will be of great benefit to you. It will teach you a lot about mountain biking and make you a better rider. But for me, racing motocross taught me more about riding mountain bikes than trail riding. It expanded my skill set and took away more things that scared me about mountain biking than enduro did. YMMV


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## Archi-Magus (Feb 22, 2010)

Just get a damn motocross bike man, a trail bike is a lesser version of the motocross bike. There is no point in getting a trail bike when you can set up your motocross bike to ride trails. Besides that once you're good you won't need to set it up differently, just know how to use the clutch to compensate for the higher gears. Honestly I've been riding for like 18 years and there is simply no point in getting a trail bike as the difference is only going to be gearing and lights, which you will hate once you're out doing real riding.

Now if you wanted to get a motocross bike or a trials bike, that's a different story. Two completely different bikes and the trials bike is going to handle alot like your mountain bike and be a TON of fun on the trails, especially going up. Super nimble, super light, and super responsive, trials bikes are the only way to go for technical trail riding IMO.


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## Archi-Magus (Feb 22, 2010)

Fox787 said:


> But there all "trail bikes"
> 
> Idk im tierd of all these mx guys saying its like a walk in the park to ride actually off road. I tried taking my friend riding one day we came to a log he had to LIFT his bike over a log at the time he was almost in the lead for the point in the local motocross scene


LOL yeah right. I'm calling b.s. on either his skill level or the fact that he was lifting his bike. Anyone even half decent at wheelies can probably wheelie into the back of their truck, nevermind a log.


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## jtemple (Feb 3, 2010)

For those that think you can't ride MX on a big dual sport:






I do agree, a lightweight MX bike would be easier to handle. I bought mine because it's lower maintenance and more suitable for highway riding (which, sadly, happens a lot around here).


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## Archi-Magus (Feb 22, 2010)

FlyingIrish said:


> And A NOTE to all of you!!! This is probably some of the best skills based training you could ever do for MTB!!! NO??? I've been sessioning some jumps lately that I've just bee SENDING and It's been so benefitial to have jumped on many occasions a dirtbike.


I agree completely. This is my first year on a MTB as well as a couple of moto friends and they have only been renting while I dove in head first, but we have been riding the resorts the same amount and within a month and a half of riding we were consistently riding NCS at DV. One of the guys that worked there couldn't believe it and called us liars. Moto skills and DH/FR mountain biking skills definitely help each other out a TON. My whips have gotten far better on the dirt bike too.

I honestly liken my mountain biking and moto into the same category most of the time in terms of skill and similarities, even over something like road biking or bmx compared to mountain biking. My 20" bike feels like an alien space craft or something after riding my big bikes for a month or so without the bmx in there at all. I actually recently sold the bmx because it would screw with my wheelies on my big bikes after riding it for a day. I'm soon going to replace it with a DJ or slopestyle bike.


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## Archi-Magus (Feb 22, 2010)

jtemple said:


> For those that think you can't ride MX on a big dual sport:


Well of course you can, they usually have a small moto section at enduro races right before the finish just to push the conditioning of the riders that much harder, but a dedicated machine is always going to be better at what it's made for. I've jumped xr650's and xr600's and they are WAY different in the air. They tend to shoot outward and not jump nearly as high. They're also far harder to get to move around and tight corners suck on them.


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## charging_rhinos (Jul 29, 2008)

jtemple said:


> For those that think you can't ride MX on a big dual sport:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh no you didn't just post that... But you did. Oh man...

Honestly, that isn't the bike doing an ounce of the work there, pardner. Ivan Tedesco is one of the world's best motocross racers (and a VERY nice guy). Put him on an xr 80 and he'd still beat most people around a track. Dual sports and enduros have their place, and it's just not on an mx track. Dual sports are super cool for on/off road stuff like weekend long treks. Nothing better for that. But did you see how hard he was struggling with that hulk through the turns? Tedesco can pull it off because he's incredibly talented and knows how to ride. Apples and oranges, pal.


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## yzfrider (Nov 5, 2010)

Lelandjt said:


> Cuz the 2011 YZ450 is unchanged from the 2010. I however, am suspicious of used 4strokes unless you really believe the riding and maintenance history. Just too much that could be worn and hard to inspect.


Totally agree w/ you on the used four stroke thing. I guess I should have said buy a new 10 if you can find one. I just picked new one up a month ago, and in my area, no that hard to find a new 10.


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## yzfrider (Nov 5, 2010)

FlyingIrish said:


> OK --- So you guys know this is basically the terrain I'm thinking of riding. And A NOTE to all of you!!! This is probably some of the best skills based training you could ever do for MTB!!! NO??? I've been sessioning some jumps lately that I've just bee SENDING and It's been so benefitial to have jumped on many occasions a dirtbike.


That terrain reminds of an area near the central coast that is now closed (Clear Creek), near the pinnacles, south of Hollister. I think its obvious as to what the choice is, if its your goal to hit it like Nathan Woods, a dual sport wouldn't be a good choice.

My recommendation of a alum. frame yz 250 2smoke still stands (motocross action will validate my recomendation). I'm not a big fan of buying used 4 strokes. Even if there well maintained, some of the engine parts are more consumable (think valves).

That place looks cool, and Nathan Woods was ripping it up.


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

I wouldn't necessarily categorize the video that the OP posted as a typical "trail bike" trail.
It is more like one long linear motocross track. A MX bike with a bigger tank for longer rides would be a good choice. 
Either way you look at it, A custom tuned fork and shock is a must for every rnew bike. It should be the first mod you do. 
It costs a lot to get a fork tuned to handle the chunder and rocks of high speed trail riding and also a 60-80' step down. 


But I would like to hear what exactly is the "real" difference between say a 2008 YZ450f and a 2008 WR450f. 

Here are some of the differences I know of:
WR450f has:
Electric start with a battery.
Headlight and tail light.
Heavier flywheel for smoother power delivery and it makes it harder to stall
18" rear wheel instead of 19". Overall circumference is the same but the 18" tire has 
a taller profile for pinch flat resistance.
Trip computer
Suspension better tuned to the needs of trail rides.
Wider ratio transmission, (ie different gearing for a different purpose) 
The WR450f weighs 22 pounds more. But has a few heavier items. (ie. electric start and lights)

I don't really buy the notion that a MX bike is way better suited to trails than a Trails bike would be to Moto. They are built for different purposes and both can be modified to be closer to the other. Both are a compromise and you just have to decide where you want to have that compromise.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

charging_rhinos said:


> Same reason that you don't see a CR250 2 stroker in a Hare Scramble.


Where the hell did you get that info? Lots of Jap 250 smokers in hare/hounds and enduros.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

yzfrider said:


> My recommendation of a alum. frame yz 250 2smoke still stands (motocross action will validate my recomendation).


Why the Alu or steel? Just because it's newer?


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## 317000 (Mar 2, 2007)

charging_rhinos said:


> Oh no you didn't just post that... But you did. Oh man...
> 
> Honestly, that isn't the bike doing an ounce of the work there, pardner. Ivan Tedesco is one of the world's best motocross racers (and a VERY nice guy). Put him on an xr 80 and he'd still beat most people around a track. Dual sports and enduros have their place, and it's just not on an mx track. Dual sports are super cool for on/off road stuff like weekend long treks. Nothing better for that. But did you see how hard he was struggling with that hulk through the turns? Tedesco can pull it off because he's incredibly talented and knows how to ride. Apples and oranges, pal.


I'm not your buddy, guy.


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## charging_rhinos (Jul 29, 2008)

dowst said:


> I'm not your buddy, guy.


South Park is great, isn't it? :thumbsup:


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## jtemple (Feb 3, 2010)

charging_rhinos said:


> Oh no you didn't just post that... But you did. Oh man...
> 
> Honestly, that isn't the bike doing an ounce of the work there, pardner. Ivan Tedesco is one of the world's best motocross racers (and a VERY nice guy). Put him on an xr 80 and he'd still beat most people around a track. Dual sports and enduros have their place, and it's just not on an mx track. Dual sports are super cool for on/off road stuff like weekend long treks. Nothing better for that. But did you see how hard he was struggling with that hulk through the turns? Tedesco can pull it off because he's incredibly talented and knows how to ride. Apples and oranges, pal.


Oh, I know the guy is incredible, and there's no way in hell I'd be able to manhandle my Husky like that. But I was just saying that you don't *need* a lightweight MX bike to have fun. That said, I would have bought a smaller bike like the TE310 or something similar, if the terrain around here justified it. There's just too much superslab and not enough dirt around here. I wouldn't want to be winding out a little bike on the highway for 100 miles. My TE630 will ride at highway speeds all day and not complain a bit. Heck, I gave up a 160hp sportbike to get it and don't miss the power one bit, especially when I turn off of the pavement and onto some dirt/gravel.

Here's the kind of DS riding we have around here. You're pretty much limited to minimum maintenance public roads. Some of them can actually get pretty washed out and rutty:


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## charging_rhinos (Jul 29, 2008)

jtemple said:


> But I was just saying that you don't *need* a lightweight MX bike to have fun.


Completely agree with you there. I admit I had a blast learning to ride my first 'clutch' bike (a clunky old '85 XR 350). I still do prefer mx bikes for about any type of riding, but in the long run, I guess it's probably the accessibility and types of trails that would dictate what kind of bike you'd get. I must admit, I was pretty spoiled as far as locations go. I grew up on the edge of a subdivision in Nevada that had about 200 square miles of BLM open-access mountains to ride in. I was fortunate enough not to have to trailer my bike or ride roads to get to good riding. I guess I should take that into account, and count my blessings. I know that's a luxury that most don't have. But I do agree that any kind or riding is super fun and I'd gladly do any of it if I weren't so poor as to not be able to afford a bike right now.


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