# IBM Testing new Battery Tech that uses SeaWater



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

https://gizmodo.com/ibm-research-created-a-new-battery-that-outperforms-lit-1840535845

This is interesting and if it comes to fruition could be very good for electronics everywhere, including eBikes.

The Super Quick Charging could especially be useful if one is doing multiple shuttle laps in a day and runs out of juice.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

duplicate


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> https://gizmodo.com/ibm-research-created-a-new-battery-that-outperforms-lit-1840535845
> 
> This is interesting and if it comes to fruition could be very good for electronics everywhere, including eBikes.
> 
> The Super Quick Charging could especially be useful if one is doing multiple shuttle laps in a day and runs out of juice.


This is good; "Artisanal" Cobalt mining in the Congo is a human rights horror story and no US law requires a clean supply chain for Lithium-Ion batteries.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

Water and electricity don't mix!


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Seems kind of odd that they talk about batteries that last a million miles. Good for a few vehicles (as noted in the article) but almost no one keeps a car anywhere close to that long, especially with the ever changing technology. I guess they would get passed on to people who can't afford to spend much, but would we end up with 50 year old cars on the streets being common? Seems like we'd end up with a glut of batteries that would be obsolete tech but maybe they could be repurposed.

More earth friendly, lower cost and faster charging are all big pluses, though.


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## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

cool. hope they can make this work at the consumer level. need to replace the use of lithium batteries.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

chazpat said:


> Seems kind of odd that they talk about batteries that last a million miles. Good for a few vehicles (as noted in the article) but almost no one keeps a car anywhere close to that long, especially with the ever changing technology. I guess they would get passed on to people who can't afford to spend much, but would we end up with 50 year old cars on the streets being common? Seems like we'd end up with a glut of batteries that would be obsolete tech but maybe they could be repurposed.
> 
> More earth friendly, lower cost and faster charging are all big pluses, though.


Cars could easily last 1,000,000 miles if that was made to be a design point. Many, many semi-trucks hit 1,000,000. There are a few cars that have gone that far even with things the way they are. Car manufacturers have zero incentive to build a car like that, so they don't.

I've taken five different vehicles over 200K miles, and one of those hit 300,000 with another owner before it was totaled. Three of those vehicles I bought new, two I bought used. I know everything that was done to the three I bought new, and other than changing ALL fluids more often than recommended, I did nothing special, in fact, I generally abuse the crap out my vehicles just by virtue of where I go in them. The best thing that ever happened to the planned obsolescence car industry was electronic monitoring of oil life. The electronic monitors are purposely set to only warn you to get an oil change AFTER the oil is long past where you should have changed it. As long as they can get you out of the warranty period, they have succeeded. If you want 200-300K plus miles, you cannot be running your motor oil, trans fluid, diff fluids, anti-freeze, etc. to the manufacturer's recommended intervals. They lay the "green guilt" BS on you saying it is "wasteful" to change engine oil every 3-4000 miles, but what is really wasteful is junking a car because of oil-related engine issues after only 100k. Same with transmissions. Ford says I only need to change the trans fluid on my truck every 150,000 miles. Well yeah, they want to sell me a new transmission at 150,000k.

Manufacturers hate the idea of electric cars. There are too few moving parts, and too few items that need regular service. Without revenue from oil changes, filters, radiator flushes, brake jobs (electric car brakes last much longer because they all use regen to slow down), transmission failures, etc. they must rely on making their money up front. Battery tech is the weak spot right now. If they can create a battery that would last 1,000,000 miles, the rest of the car will be easy.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Cars could easily last 1,000,000 miles if that was made to be a design point. Many, many semi-trucks hit 1,000,000. There are a few cars that have gone that far even with things the way they are. Car manufacturers have zero incentive to build a car like that, so they don't.
> 
> I've taken five different vehicles over 200K miles, and one of those hit 300,000 with another owner before it was totaled. Three of those vehicles I bought new, two I bought used. I know everything that was done to the three I bought new, and other than changing ALL fluids more often than recommended, I did nothing special, in fact, I generally abuse the crap out my vehicles just by virtue of where I go in them. The best thing that ever happened to the planned obsolescence car industry was electronic monitoring of oil life. The electronic monitors are purposely set to only warn you to get an oil change AFTER the oil is long past where you should have changed it. As long as they can get you out of the warranty period, they have succeeded. If you want 200-300K plus miles, you cannot be running your motor oil, trans fluid, diff fluids, anti-freeze, etc. to the manufacturer's recommended intervals. They lay the "green guilt" BS on you saying it is "wasteful" to change engine oil every 3-4000 miles, but what is really wasteful is junking a car because of oil-related engine issues after only 100k. Same with transmissions. Ford says I only need to change the trans fluid on my truck every 150,000 miles. Well yeah, they want to sell me a new transmission at 150,000k.
> 
> Manufacturers hate the idea of electric cars. There are too few moving parts, and too few items that need regular service. Without revenue from oil changes, filters, radiator flushes, brake jobs (electric car brakes last much longer because they all use regen to slow down), transmission failures, etc. they must rely on making their money up front. Battery tech is the weak spot right now. If they can create a battery that would last 1,000,000 miles, the rest of the car will be easy.


My point is, most consumers won't want to keep a car that long. Just as you got rid of your car at 200,000 miles though it had much more life in it. Imagine keeping it 5x that long. I have a 2006 Subaru with 193,000. I'd keep driving it but my wife is insisting I buy a new car. At the rate I'm going, I would be driving it 70 years to hit a million miles! But during that time, so much else on it would become obsolete; better batteries and better safety.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

honkinunit said:


> Cars could easily last 1,000,000 miles if that was made to be a design point. Many, many semi-trucks hit 1,000,000. There are a few cars that have gone that far even with things the way they are. Car manufacturers have zero incentive to build a car like that, so they don't.
> 
> I've taken five different vehicles over 200K miles, and one of those hit 300,000 with another owner before it was totaled. Three of those vehicles I bought new, two I bought used. I know everything that was done to the three I bought new, and other than changing ALL fluids more often than recommended, I did nothing special, in fact, I generally abuse the crap out my vehicles just by virtue of where I go in them. The best thing that ever happened to the planned obsolescence car industry was electronic monitoring of oil life. The electronic monitors are purposely set to only warn you to get an oil change AFTER the oil is long past where you should have changed it. As long as they can get you out of the warranty period, they have succeeded. If you want 200-300K plus miles, you cannot be running your motor oil, trans fluid, diff fluids, anti-freeze, etc. to the manufacturer's recommended intervals. They lay the "green guilt" BS on you saying it is "wasteful" to change engine oil every 3-4000 miles, but what is really wasteful is junking a car because of oil-related engine issues after only 100k. Same with transmissions. Ford says I only need to change the trans fluid on my truck every 150,000 miles. Well yeah, they want to sell me a new transmission at 150,000k.
> 
> Manufacturers hate the idea of electric cars. There are too few moving parts, and too few items that need regular service. Without revenue from oil changes, filters, radiator flushes, brake jobs (electric car brakes last much longer because they all use regen to slow down), transmission failures, etc. they must rely on making their money up front. Battery tech is the weak spot right now. If they can create a battery that would last 1,000,000 miles, the rest of the car will be easy.


 I beg to differ. The conversion to electric is a win win for the manufacturers: they eliminate most of their troublesome strike prone workforce, they dramatically lower warranty claims and since the maker earns zero dollars from out of warranty service there is a possibility of killing any dealer that relies upon service income. When enough local dealers exit the business then they can go to a consumer direct sales model like Tesla and not have to share the profits. What's not to like?

Also there is big money to be made selling emissions and mileage credits to other car makers. IIRC, Tesla sells over $400 million worth every year 
to Fiat Chrysler to make up for the low mileage and high emissions of their crappy Jeep products. I just returned a rental 2019 Cherokee and it was appalling how far behind Jeep is compared with a Kia, Hyundai or even a Chevy Malibu. Highway economy in the low 30's as opposed to the high 40's, terrible NVH control, a transmission that's was always in the wrong gear, dangerous lag when accelerating as the gearbox thought about downshifting, etc.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

No, no, no. You've all got it wrong. The future is streets filled with ebikes, etrikes, and the likes. There will be no more room for cars and gangs of ebikers will rule the land.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Yes we need more light vehicles but thats not the american way of a large truck to drive 5 blocks to the corner store, with one person in it. Other places have way more motorcycle/scooter/moped use. Just need something to fit more people in, like a trike/tuktuk velo mobile style, which has been developed and you can see it on youtube with various concoctions.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

I don't see how batteries that last "too long" could possibly be a problem. They would be salvaged from junked cars if they are still good, and used as replacements for other vehicles, or as backup power for our homes, as the grid becomes increasingly unreliable.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

andytiedye said:


> I don't see how batteries that last "too long" could possibly be a problem. They would be salvaged from junked cars if they are still good, and used as replacements for other vehicles, or as backup power for our homes, as the grid becomes increasingly unreliable.


It would work as long as there was some level of cross pollination which is highly unlikely given the propensity for proprietary systems.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Interesting; but...
Smells of vaporware.
Everything is in seawater, economically viable extraction is another matter.
A million mile ICE is easy to achieve, but why bother if the chassis will be rusting away in 5~10 years?
Why bother building a rust-proof 1M mile chassis if the chances are that it'll be totaled in a wreck far before?​
One interesting side note, that battery research is being done at IBM's Almaden labs in California which is right next door to Santa Teresa County Park, a major MTB destination in the Silicon Valley.

A park where e-bikes happen to be permitted.

Could there be a connection?


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

andytiedye said:


> I don't see how batteries that last "too long" could possibly be a problem. They would be salvaged from junked cars if they are still good, and used as replacements for other vehicles, or as backup power for our homes, as the grid becomes increasingly unreliable.


no majors would play that game, maybe an independent builder/repairer might do it, if they even could due to being covered. Too much availability for diy'ers, and too few diy'ers in the ev world.

My next battery will probably be salvaged, I got a line on a ev used car seller.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Many DIYers in the EV world and more every week as EVs get sold and wrecked. The aftermarket has responded with controllers, chargers and BMSs suitable for many battery types. Drag racers picked up on it first and began pushing the envelope followed by the restomod crowd. If you haven’t yet driven an electric car you have no idea what a performance game-changer they can be. Our little BMW i3 was a rocket off the line, instant torque, no jerky transmission and dead silence is addictive. Now you can romp on the throttle all the time and nobody hears and nobody notices!

The Tesla rear motor and suspension assembly is on its way to becoming the small block Chevy of a new age of performance.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

andytiedye said:


> I don't see how batteries that last "too long" could possibly be a problem. They would be salvaged from junked cars if they are still good, and used as replacements for other vehicles, or as backup power for our homes, as the grid becomes increasingly unreliable.


https://gizmodo.com/a-recycling-renegade-is-out-of-prison-and-ready-to-tack-1840417556


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> Many DIYers in the EV world and more every week as EVs get sold and wrecked. The aftermarket has responded with controllers, chargers and BMSs suitable for many battery types. Drag racers picked up on it first and began pushing the envelope followed by the restomod crowd. If you haven't yet driven an electric car you have no idea what a performance game-changer they can be. Our little BMW i3 was a rocket off the line, instant torque, no jerky transmission and dead silence is addictive. Now you can romp on the throttle all the time and nobody hears and nobody notices!
> 
> The Tesla rear motor and suspension assembly is on its way to becoming the small block Chevy of a new age of performance.


Have you seen these? Pretty cool opportunities coming.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/electric-crate-motor/

https://autoweek.com/article/sema-s...roves-electric-crate-motor-era-almost-upon-us

https://jalopnik.com/finally-an-electric-crate-motor-you-can-drop-into-your-1839168140


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## KrisRayner (Apr 3, 2007)

WoodlandHills said:


> I beg to differ. The conversion to electric is a win win for the manufacturers: they eliminate most of their troublesome strike prone workforce, they dramatically lower warranty claims and since the maker earns zero dollars from out of warranty service there is a possibility of killing any dealer that relies upon service income. When enough local dealers exit the business then they can go to a consumer direct sales model like Tesla and not have to share the profits. What's not to like?
> 
> Also there is big money to be made selling emissions and mileage credits to other car makers. IIRC, Tesla sells over $400 million worth every year
> to Fiat Chrysler to make up for the low mileage and high emissions of their crappy Jeep products. I just returned a rental 2019 Cherokee and it was appalling how far behind Jeep is compared with a Kia, Hyundai or even a Chevy Malibu. Highway economy in the low 30's as opposed to the high 40's, terrible NVH control, a transmission that's was always in the wrong gear, dangerous lag when accelerating as the gearbox thought about downshifting, etc.


My time working at a dealership showed the biggest problems to be software related, not mechanical. Lots of software and firmware updates, especially for infotainment systems. That will carry over to electric cars as well. The development time and model update cycle is so short they're unable to completely debug everything and account for all the variables. More modules, more problems.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

KrisRayner said:


> My time working at a dealership showed the biggest problems to be software related, not mechanical. Lots of software and firmware updates, especially for infotainment systems. That will carry over to electric cars as well. The development time and model update cycle is so short they're unable to completely debug everything and account for all the variables. More modules, more problems.


 Tesla updates the software automatically over an internet connection. My 2019 f-250 had an internet connection as do all GM and other cars with Onstar. No need for a dealer at all. 
If you get right down to it, what purpose does a dealer serve anyway? You don't need them to research a new car, you don't need them anymore to buy a new car, you don't need them for post-warranty service and Tesla has shown that you don't need them for warranty service either. What value does a dealer add in exchange for tacking on their profit?


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

I've created a motor that uses household garbage to power it. It can be retrofitted to almost any vehicle. I call it the "flux capacitor". I'll be accepting backing on Kickstarter soon.


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