# Noob spends money on nice new bike with no idea what he's doing! No but really, help!



## guerillamahn (Nov 29, 2020)

In a slightly early mid-life crisis move a local man splurges on a fancy new MTB; neighbors marvel at him falling over repeatedly in local parks, cursing.

Well I guess it was a bit click-baity with the thread title but it is pretty much true however it isn't really the point of this thread. Mostly I am gonna just post a few pix of me on my new (first MTB) bike because I am curious if anyone has any input into bike fit.

First off the bike is a Radon Jealous AL 9.0 - I am from Ohio but live in Germany for some years now and this brand is a direct sales brand from a large online company called bike-discount.de they are based quite near to Canyon and are quite comparable however they are smaller and cheaper though Canyon seems like a great deal as well, anyway I have had a pretty good experience with Radon bikes, they don't export to the US though. Here is the bike: https://www.radon-bikes.de/mountainbike/hardtail/jealous-al/1x12/





































To ramble on a bit more about it: I've had the bike about 3 weeks now, did the tubeless swap, threw on a Bikeyoke Revive dropper-post, etc nothing much else.

ANYWAY, I got the medium size, I thought about going large but I am always between medium and large. I have short legs and long torso, 32in / 81cm inseam but 5ft 11.5" tall. My concerns have been I was feeling a bit scrunched on the bike however pushing the saddle a bit back really seemed to make that feel fine really, perhaps it was just in my head or is just part of the process of getting used to a new bike.

So here are the pictures, any thoughts about how stretched or not my upper body looks on the bike? Do you think lowering the stem and or shortening or going longer with the stem would be smart? I have a feeling though that probably the obvious bottom-line is that I should just continue to **** around on the bike and practice my bike handling drills and if it makes me feel good eventually maybe I'll swap a spacer here or there haha. Any links to well explained bike fitting or geo threads/discussions/articles would be appreciated and yeah thanks for having a look at my post 

TLDR: Noobie wants to know how cool he looks on his new nice HT - thinking it might be a bit small for my long torso but since I have hobbit legs I decided it is nice to not have the top tube all up in my groin. Anyway what can ya do right!? Would you mess around with the stem at all or just forget it since it doesn't really matter that much cuz I'd just be happy to be able to wheelie cleanly and go down a trail at speed without shitting myself and a few mm's here or there prob aren't that big of a deal.

Thanks everyone, maybe I already figured it out mostly haha, admins delete or move thread as needed


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

You need a Large. Definitely the wrong size for your height with a long torso.
Plus the bike has dated geo with 446mm reach for a Large and 69.4* head tube angle. 
66* with 475mm reach and a short stem would be current. With a steeper seat tube angle.
Cragger in a Large is as close as you'll get from Radon. Call B-D and do a swap. I'd go with the 8 for the fork and wheels.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

5'11' means you should definitely have gotten a large. 100% no doubt about that. the geometry on that bike is conservative XC type dimensions, which means it has a very short reach and short top tube already. buying an under-sized frame makes that problem even worse. the smaller bike is going to feel a little easier to maneuver, but it's always going to be cramped and awkward. standover is NOT how you size a mountain bike. what's important is:
•when the saddle is in a position that makes you feel balanced and efficient on the bike, the reach to the bars allows you to somewhat comfortably _control_ the bike, and
•when standing and not using the saddle, you can lift the front wheel and unweight the rear wheel.

with a too-small bike, it's likely that it will feel squirrely under you and hurt your back as you cramp yourself into it. you don't want to just put a long seatpost and long stem on the bike to "make it fit" for the same reason that you don't buy size 40 shoes for your size 45 feet and just cut the toebox open so your piggies can stick out.


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## flyninjasquirrel (Apr 27, 2018)

Probably should have posted here before you bought the bike :thumbsup:

This was a helpful comment.


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

We all go through learning processes on buying bikes, and every bike can be improved on in some way. Yours is a "bit" small for you, but if you ride it and your back doesn't hurt then I say go for it. I did all the research in 2010 and bought the best bike possible for my riding style, and I still got a new bike in 2013, 2015, and 2018. Through the learning process I honed my bike purchases based on maxing out a particular area on my current bike (ie - I like jumping, and my current bike cant jump that well - etc). 

If you can exchange it for a large, I would do that - otherwise, just ride it and enjoy it for now.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

flyninjasquirrel said:


> Probably should have posted here before you bought the bike :thumbsup:
> 
> This was a helpful comment.


Hah, hah. I sometimes don't post a question because I think it is just a stupid question and people will laugh at me. But better to ask a stupid question before buying, than after buying.

OP: I'm too lazy to look up that manufacturer's size chart. But I'm 5'11" too and for every bike I'm in the L. Not sure how you decided on an M. Some manufacturers have odd sizing, though.

But ultimately what we or size charts say doesn't matter. How you feel on the bike will matter.


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## guerillamahn (Nov 29, 2020)

EDIT: Sorry double post!


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## guerillamahn (Nov 29, 2020)

eb1888 said:


> You need a Large. Definitely the wrong size for your height with a long torso.
> Plus the bike has dated geo with 446mm reach for a Large and 69.4* head tube angle.
> 66* with 475mm reach and a short stem would be current. With a steeper seat tube angle.
> Cragger in a Large is as close as you'll get from Radon. Call B-D and do a swap. I'd go with the 8 for the fork and wheels.


First off thanks to everyone who took the time to respond and throw in their 2 cents.

Yeah I did a bit of looking into everything and I felt like it would be labelled as such with that geo. Granted it is an XC bike so I guess it goes with the territory a bit no? I was considering the Cragger but the XC oriented Jealous I think made a bit more sense considering the planned usage - however I am kinda 2nd guessing that obviously a bit.

I will google a bit and see if any of the German forums have chatter about exchanging bikes with them, considering how I've been a good customer for nearly 2 years now I might have a shot BUT I have kinda ****ed with the bike a good bit, tubeless swap, a couple very small scuffs, etc. Got about 50-60KM on it I think.



mack_turtle said:


> 5'11' means you should definitely have gotten a large. 100% no doubt about that. the geometry on that bike is conservative XC type dimensions, which means it has a very short reach and short top tube already. buying an under-sized frame makes that problem even worse. the smaller bike is going to feel a little easier to maneuver, but it's always going to be cramped and awkward. standover is NOT how you size a mountain bike. what's important is:
> •when the saddle is in a position that makes you feel balanced and efficient on the bike, the reach to the bars allows you to somewhat comfortably control the bike, and
> •when standing and not using the saddle, you can lift the front wheel and unweight the rear wheel.
> 
> with a too-small bike, it's likely that it will feel squirrely under you and hurt your back as you cramp yourself into it. you don't want to just put a long seatpost and long stem on the bike to "make it fit" for the same reason that you don't buy size 40 shoes for your size 45 feet and just cut the toebox open so your piggies can stick out.


Yeah I dunno I think I need more seat time and perhaps more experience or seat time in other bikes to really feel confident about my impressions but def the bike felt pretty good initially but only after sliding the saddle a bit back but yeah the last ride I kinda was thinking I feel a bit scrunched up on it and I suppose that was when I started to think I shoulda gone large.



flyninjasquirrel said:


> Probably should have posted here before you bought the bike
> 
> This was a helpful comment.


Hahaha, probably? Definitely - however I think at the very least the one way to look at it in a positive light is that it might be a good way to more influence my GF to start mountain biking, she's a bit scared but anyway some mild XC style stuff / touring / "marathon" or even Bikepacking like trips with lots of off-road would really be fun for her. She has the same inseam as me at 81cm but is a few inches shorter however perhaps the bike does fit her pretty well in the end.

She rode it a very small amount already and the only thing she had to say is that the bars felt too wide for her, suppose that could be dealt with a bit. Definitely keeping the idea in mind that I kinda punt her the bike if Bike-Discount wont let me exchange it.



Thustlewhumber said:


> We all go through learning processes on buying bikes, and every bike can be improved on in some way. Yours is a "bit" small for you, but if you ride it and your back doesn't hurt then I say go for it. I did all the research in 2010 and bought the best bike possible for my riding style, and I still got a new bike in 2013, 2015, and 2018. Through the learning process I honed my bike purchases based on maxing out a particular area on my current bike (ie - I like jumping, and my current bike cant jump that well - etc).
> 
> If you can exchange it for a large, I would do that - otherwise, just ride it and enjoy it for now.


You're describing me well haha, additionally I guess this is often times what happens without going into a shop and feeling the different sizes for real.

I think you're take is also good to say it is a bit small for me, so far my back has felt pretty alright on it and I suspect it may very well be "fine enough" as is.

Again let's see if B-D bites at my request to exchange. If not I will cope with it for a while. Maybe try to see if my GF likes the fit / is open to try a bit of off-roading haha. Otherwise I guess I can usually sell it at some point without losing tons of money.



HerrKaLeu said:


> Hah, hah. I sometimes don't post a question because I think it is just a stupid question and people will laugh at me. But better to ask a stupid question before buying, than after buying.
> 
> OP: I'm too lazy to look up that manufacturer's size chart. But I'm 5'11" too and for every bike I'm in the L. Not sure how you decided on an M. Some manufacturers have odd sizing, though.
> 
> But ultimately what we or size charts say doesn't matter. How you feel on the bike will matter.


Haha right well decent point :x

Well I ended up at M because I sized by inseam measurement. I have the short-legged long-torsed body type, its a bit odd to have 81cm inseam while being nearly 6ft tall.

I actually was aware of the fact that I very well might need the large but I kinda took it a bit lightly and thought surely deciding by inseam ie not having the top tube hitting my in the groin so much. Anyway it might have been a bit foolish haha 

Thanks again for all the input everyone!


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

It looks a touch on the short side for you, but it also depends on your style. If you're more into the XC, spin long miles fast, you'll want to be a bit more stretched out. 
But if you go more for the slow tight technical trialsy stuff, then look for a little higher rise in the handlebar/stem. I wouldn't go shorter on the stem. I've gotten undersized frames for trials.


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## 3blackbikes (May 4, 2011)

That bike is made of radon? 

I'd be more concerned about cancer than just the sizing.


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## guerillamahn (Nov 29, 2020)

3blackbikes said:


> That bike is made of radon?
> 
> I'd be more concerned about cancer than just the sizing.


Not that I am aware of but :idea:



Taroroot said:


> It looks a touch on the short side for you, but it also depends on your style. If you're more into the XC, spin long miles fast, you'll want to be a bit more stretched out.
> But if you go more for the slow tight technical trialsy stuff, then look for a little higher rise in the handlebar/stem. I wouldn't go shorter on the stem. I've gotten undersized frames for trials.


Yeah, I've accepted that it is a bit short however it really is doable and anyways I am a noob and the biggest point is I can still get out and get the time in on it trying to gain general confidence/skills etc the perfect bike can wait really... oh wait that will be actually easier after today haha 

So I mentioned it in my last post that didn't post until manual mod approval - my girlfriend seems to fit well on the bike. Well today we had our first outing to cycle in a while and we took the new bike and her touring bike, well ends up I only got to ride about 25% of the whole day on the MTB haha.

So here are some pix and her posture on the bike, I think maybe she'd not mind a slightly shorter stem, the current one is 70mm - perhaps losing 1-2cm there could help but generally she said she felt very good on the bike so maybe we dont change anything except for the saddle. She is 163cm / 5'5" with an 81cm / ~32" inseam (actually same inseam as me).

Pix:























































^ That area is part of a very expansive forest just north of Berlin, we know it pretty well from walks and a few cycles on our touring bikes but we didn't ever stray from the packed in more like jeep road bits of the forest because things quickly get sandy or soft for our narrow and hard touring tires, anyway today she quickly realized how fun a light hardtail can be and how the tires make all the difference. So yeah I ended up riding about 75% of the 3hr ride today on HER touring bike while she enjoyed the Radon XC bike haha. Which was great because this means she will take this bike, it seems better fit for her; I'll get a bit of a more stretched out hardtail, perhaps a bit more trail oriented as well.

Long post I know... anyway so for now I am looking at a Radon Cragger 8.0 as my most likely/realistic option, just need to decide if I go with M or L. Pretty much everyone on the German forums recommends a M for me - they say its big for an M but yeah the geo is the geo in the end and you can all see that. I guess Americans/Brits are a bit more "progressive" or modern or something and they tend to recommend longer reaches and etc. Here is a link to this bike and the geo and so on is there:

https://www.radon-bikes.de/mountainbike/hardtail/cragger/cragger-80-2021/

My next option (a bit of a long shot and a bit over budget) is the Moxie Mx3 which I came across a bit randomly but it seems quite interesting and something the british/american enthusiast world would recommend. I only found one used example which is quite a far drive from Berlin so if I would want it I would pretty much decide before and go pick it up... makes me a bit nervous but yeah here is a link to his bike:

https://bikemarkt.mtb-news.de/article/1455090-pipedream-moxie-mx3-long-29

OR

The final option and biggest long shot would be I go crazy and order a frame like the Moxie or something and just build one myself this winter but I've never built a bike however I feel like I could with enough time haha, could be interesting - I just feel like it would get expensive fast.

https://www.pipedreamcycles.com/shop/moxie/

So this long post is finally OVER ... thanks for reading or scanning it haha


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Google translate fails. On the Radon Cragger page, apparently the German word for headset gets translated to "tax rate" by Google. Derp. Cragger looks like a decent bike. Would probably still recommend a large for you, though.

The moxie is a different sort of bike than the others. Sizing is based on length (which is how it should be done, anyway). And those things tend to be longer than most. I'd be talking to the manufacturer specifically regarding sizing if you're interested in one of those.

I ride a Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead, which is sorta sized on length, too. I'm on a medium/size 2, which is longer than many "mediums", but not as long as the moxie tends to be. That's the size GG recommends for me for the "full throttle" riding style, which I take to mean more descent-focused, more about attacking the trail, more standing while on the bike, etc. They recommend the size 1/small with a longer stem for my height for the "all around" riding style, which I take to mean riding where you're seated more, quite likely lighter duty, too. Given what you show in your pictures, a similar issue of riding style/perspective may affect the bike geometry and sizing you ultimately choose.

Modern mtb geometry (the long reach concept, at least) kinda focuses on riding where you stand a lot for descending and higher speed stability. If you're riding seated and more relaxed while you're riding, it very well may put more pressure on your hands than you like. This geometry works well when you are really engaged in riding, you're activating your core muscles to support your torso and you're applying pressure to the front end of the bike intentionally to get the combination of traction, handling, and maneuverability that you're looking for. If your riding style is more sit-and-pedal on gravel and smooth pathways and standing is limited to very short spells, then older style geometry with shorter reach for a given size tends to be better suited to that.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

guerillamahn said:


> I actually was aware of the fact that I very well might need the large but I kinda took it a bit lightly and thought surely deciding by inseam ie not having the top tube hitting my in the groin so much. Anyway it might have been a bit foolish haha


Part of a more modern geometry is the bent top tube. That way a given frame size gives you a bit lower stand over.

I understand your concern and in a thought experiment I wanted to do the same and get an M to get more standover clearance. Fortunately I didn't end up actually doing it. I think a completely different bike with bend top tube is what is needed to get you the standover clearance you need on a frame that fits you. Because f you got this bike in L, you may hurt yourself or at least would be afraid to hurt yourself.

My riding got braver knowing getting stuck on a rock and putting the foot on a random place won't hurt me down there.


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

OP ,building a bike can get expensive quick. The upside is you get exactly want you want. The issue is as a newer ride rider you don't have the experience to really know what you need/want. Nothing stopping you from making a list of parts and prices to see what you get and what it would cost. Don't forget to add any tools or labor that you might have a shop do.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

rangeriderdave said:


> The issue is as a newer ride rider you don't have the experience to really know what you need/want.


Definitely. It can be easy to miss incompatibilities when purchasing that you don't discover until it's time to wrench. Minimum consequence is that you're looking at delays in the build with returning items and getting the right part. The other side of it is that you don't discover it until you break something. Also there are a few pretty specific tools out there for certain jobs. Attempting to hack your way through a job without the proper tools is another way people screw things up.

The other aspect of this is more subtle. It's about choosing components that work together well and that work well for the bike as a whole and the riding you'll be doing. Things like putting a lightweight xc wheelset on the Moxie frame, or installing a lightweight xc wheelset if you're a new rider who's a clyde. A clyde MIGHT be able to get away with a lightweight xc wheelset, but they need to be skilled enough to "ride soft" on those wheels. A new rider is going to be clumsy and hard on stuff, add in extra weight to the equation and you'll have way more wheel truing needed, and will probably break stuff.

The biggest reason this pops up is because people are shopping for good deals. The good deals aren't always what you need for your situation. Another big one (albeit something I've seen less in the past few years) is for people shopping for low weight parts regardless.

There are lots of other places that things like this might pop up in any given situation (each situation is unique). So having the experience to be able to narrow the field of choices can be important.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

I will admit I haven't read every post on here, but some warnings.

I agree on 'old' geo you should be on a large. I' basically the same proportions. Just under 5'11'' with a 32'' inseam. With our short inseam for height, I haven't had a frame yet that stand over has been good on, but I also don't use as a guide to fit. I understand for a beginner it may be more a concern.

That said, on some newer bikes a medium would actually fit me better. So be careful choosing the replacement.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

TwoTone said:


> I will admit I haven't read every post on here, but some warnings.
> 
> I agree on 'old' geo you should be on a large. I' basically the same proportions. Just under 5'11'' with a 32'' inseam. With our short inseam for height, I haven't had a frame yet that stand over has been good on, but I also don't use as a guide to fit. I understand for a beginner it may be more a concern.
> 
> That said, on some newer bikes a medium would actually fit me better. So be careful choosing the replacement.


Depending on how I measure, I also have a 32" inseam at 5'11" and L fits very well. I used to have a straight-top tube bike (Motobecane Sturgis), and clearance was an issue with just 1" or so. nothing bad ever happened, but there always was that fear. I then upgraded to an L with better geometry (RSD Mayor) that has the complex bent TT and i have maybe 3". Much better to have the fear gone.

IMHO, downsizing for the sake of SO is a really bad advice as it compromises everything else. My advice is to get a bike that has a bent TT, and size to the correct size for all other dimensions. With a good TT design SO will be OK. If SO is a problem, it is the wrong type of bike. Period.

Yes the complex TT cost some $ and adds a few gram, but geometry never should be compromised.

With that said, it doesn't matter what anyone lese rides. ride an XS, or XXL, I don't care


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

HerrKaLeu said:


> Depending on how I measure, I also have a 32" inseam at 5'11" and L fits very well. I used to have a straight-top tube bike (Motobecane Sturgis), and clearance was an issue with just 1" or so. nothing bad ever happened, but there always was that fear. I then upgraded to an L with better geometry (RSD Mayor) that has the complex bent TT and i have maybe 3". Much better to have the fear gone.
> 
> IMHO, downsizing for the sake of SO is a really bad advice as it compromises everything else. My advice is to get a bike that has a bent TT, and size to the correct size for all other dimensions. With a good TT design SO will be OK. If SO is a problem, it is the wrong type of bike. Period.
> 
> ...


I think you completely misunderstood my post. I've never even looked at SO when picking a frame, IMHO it's not a way to fit a bike. I've never crashed and landed flat footed over my TT.

Why I mentioned going medium on modern geo had absolutely nothing to do with SO and everything to do with all the other measurements. You can't just say you = X therefore get a large. 
Go look at Evil bikes, no way I want a large, Medium is a much better fit.


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

> just need to decide if I go with M or L.


Oh no, not again.... get the large!!!


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## guerillamahn (Nov 29, 2020)

Harold said:


> Google translate fails. On the Radon Cragger page, apparently the German word for headset gets translated to "tax rate" by Google. Derp. Cragger looks like a decent bike. Would probably still recommend a large for you, though.
> 
> The moxie is a different sort of bike than the others. Sizing is based on length (which is how it should be done, anyway). And those things tend to be longer than most. I'd be talking to the manufacturer specifically regarding sizing if you're interested in one of those.
> 
> ...


So I wanted to go through and respond to everyone individually but I realized I tend to probably write a bit too much and that would end up as a novel.

Hahaha anyway, gotta love google-translate sometimes 

Your last paragraph is honestly really what generally I hear from the German forums concerning this bike or in general; though you were a bit more specific here, they generally use the words "verspielt" - playful for going a bit smaller/shorter and "laufruhig" - smooth running for the bigger/longer sizes. I like how you explain it very plainly, it honestly makes me wonder where I fall on this kind of scale, I suppose if one is going in the enduro/slack direction it makes sense to have a bit of a long reach then huh.

I guess my problem is I am such a noob I don't really know yet what my riding style is! I can only really speculate or decide based on what I hope or want to ride or how.

Simply put I know that for a while I will be generally riding what you saw on those photos a few posts back, very tame / rolling country pathways and double track with some nice smooth single track here and there but yeah things are mostly sandy and smooth around here. A lot of it will be touring around for fitness and so on with my GF (she on the XC bike here) - so it sounds like my initial idea to go for XC was pretty spot on, part of me thinks just a L of a decent XC bike would still be a good call. HOWEVER I do kinda want a solid hardtail that can be a bit more versatile than XC style, hence the Cragger or some other trail HT (which I was considering before this thread).

Anyway we have a van and definitely will be able to explore in more exciting areas, though there are a few minor "mountains" in the Berlin area to ride (actually a few are WW2 rubble mountains) so its nice to have at least a few choices for going a bit downhill (one of them is maintained by a local MTB club). But yeah this rambling is I guess me saying I am trying to consider what I realistically will be riding against what I think I want to / will try to ride (tame->spirited)... a bike that can do a bit of both I guess is inspiration for a decent HT Trail bike now.

Side note: I did consider a gravel bike, however I decided I'd very much rather try to get into MTB stuff and even if I realize maybe I am better suited by a gravel style bike I would then rather just trim some weight from my touring bike and do some gravel tires on it.



Thustlewhumber said:


> Oh no, not again.... get the large!!!


Haha, yeah well I am hearing such opposing advice! Though I have to say there is a very clear distinction from advice I get on this forum vs the German ones, seems the Brits and Americans are very pro long/larger sizing than the Germans. I have been posting in the Radon forum section of a bit German forum and by far most people are saying I should go for a medium, in contrast it's basically unanimous here about going large; though there is a user or two on the German forum that says large is maybe ideal for my sizing. As an example, and granted it is only one user, someone that is 1 cm shorter than me with 1 cm more in inseam than me, so quite similar, claimed to have been actually recommended a large Cragger by a Radon employee (depends who you get I guess) - he said he actually kinda wishes he got a M sized bike because often times he feels the L isn't lively/playful enough.

Finally, officially from Radon, the provided a fairly detailed sizing chart for the new Cragger, you don't see this on their site much but they detail their recommended height and inseam length. They definitely cut off L from people that might get their groins too familiar with the top tube, perhaps that is a good general approach for crushed balls lawsuits or something? Hahaha :x

I am 181 with BL of 81 so clearly a M for their official sizing:

S: Körpergröße 168cm - 178cm / Beinlänge 74 - 80cm
M: Körpergröße 175cm - 185cm / Beinlänge 77 - 86cm
L: Körpergröße 180cm - 190cm / Beinlänge 84 - 92cm

Thanks again to everyone for all the info/opinions/input - been really impressed with how active this forum is


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

This where a shop that has bikes you at least ride around a little pays off .You just can't bent riding the two sixes back to back for getting the feeling of the difference between them.

Sent from my LM-X220 using Tapatalk


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

guerillamahn said:


> - my girlfriend seems to fit well on the bike.


She would fit that bike with a shorter stem. And that's the problem. 
Once she gets the bike on trails with you and your current geo slack bike she'll still have the twitchy old school XC geometry. It'll interfere with a solid stable ride feeling as those trails you both ride together get more fun and challenging. So if you give it to her she'll eventually need a new geo bike. Maybe in a year or sooner if she really gets into mt biking.



guerillamahn said:


> -Long post I know... anyway so for now I am looking at a Radon Cragger 8.0 as my most likely/realistic option, just need to decide if I go with M or L.


The reach for the Medium is 438. That's going to require you to use a 80mm stem because you have a long torso. That'll screw up the steering a bit. 464mm for the Large. 45mm stem. Just right. 433mm chainstays. . If you want more playful look for shorter chainstays. Like 425. But not a lot different.
The Cragger 8.0 has 130mm of high quality fork travel. That's a sweet spot for hardtails even on aggressive trails. You don't want more. The head tube angle changes too much when a longer travel fork compresses on a drop. A full suspension bike doesn't behave the same because the rear compresses with the front. The Moxie has 150mm.

You can watch some vids from Hardtail party. He can ride very technical trails in Sedona Arizona. He prefers 130mm travel max.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwDvZTTIQ6Qz-xfZ-QXXuSw



guerillamahn said:


> -OR
> 
> The final option and biggest long shot would be I go crazy and order a frame like the Moxie or something and just build one myself this winter but I've never built a bike however I feel like I could with enough time haha, could be interesting - I just feel like it would get expensive fast.


You won't need more than the Cragger for 3 or more years. Maybe longer. Some frames on the hardtail party YT site would be build candidates. RSD Middlechild, Banshee Paradox, Stanton Switch9er. Some are available in titanium.


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## guerillamahn (Nov 29, 2020)

eb1888 said:


> She would fit that bike with a shorter stem. And that's the problem.
> Once she gets the bike on trails with you and your current geo slack bike she'll still have the twitchy old school XC geometry. It'll interfere with a solid stable ride feeling as those trails you both ride together get more fun and challenging. So if you give it to her she'll eventually need a new geo bike. Maybe in a year or sooner if she really gets into mt biking.
> 
> The reach for the Medium is 438. That's going to require you to use a 80mm stem because you have a long torso. That'll screw up the steering a bit. 464mm for the Large. 45mm stem. Just right.
> ...


Well TBH I have pretty much forced this whole new interest/hobby on her a bit haha, though we have been into riding for a while now. She always would mention not wanting to get hurt and about crashing and injuries when I finally got around to seriously shopping for a MTB, I guess because a little over a year ago she witnessed me wreck pretty badly descending some random farm hill on our big bike touring trip that summer and I think it made quite an impression on her... and it did on me a bit too (collarbone and 2 ribs broken, quite a hard hit on my head from the pavement too, luckily my helmet did it's job, hard to imagine what that kind of force would do to a skull... yikes - what I took away from it as being very tired and hungry is dangerous). So yeah whenever I brought up getting into MTBing she would always say she doesnt want to be breaking bones all the time haha but first things first and honestly I was really happy how much fun she was having on our first day out while she kinda stole the XC bike from me, she said she felt way more confident on it than she expected she would and was even trying to learn wheelies (I cant even really do them properly yet myself).

I believe ya on the slight change to the stem on the XC bike, my instinct was like from 70 to 55 or so, what you think? She was thinking it felt pretty good as is.

As for our possible evolution to more 'spirited' or adventurous trail oriented riding, well I guess that could happen, I guess I am more excited to go for that than she is but never say never! And at the least, if I get the more trail oriented HT first and she keeps the XC one she can occasionally ride mine to get a feel for what the different geo is like and after a year or so maybe she can then change bikes and we sell the XC, I think it might be a pretty good way for us both to develop.

I'll have a look at the vid in a bit. Cool to hear you think the cragger 8.0 seems pretty good, for the price I consider it hard to beat as far as new trail HT bikes go at least over here, plus if I would order soon I could have it delivered by the end of January which you cant say about most any other brands right now.



rangeriderdave said:


> This where a shop that has bikes you at least ride around a little pays off .You just can't bent riding the two sixes back to back for getting the feeling of the difference between them.
> 
> Sent from my LM-X220 using Tapatalk


True, but dealer bikes seem to be a bit pricey and yeah the draw to direct sales bikes are the components for the price, Radon is now using a site called experfiy and I registered on that and actually wrote the one and only cragger owner in Berlin (nobody else anywhere nearby actually) and he has a M 7.0 just to see if I could check it out but no response yet.


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

One of reasons why direct sales bike are cheaper is that they don't have to support a local shop . How much you value that is up to you. But if you have a problem , having a local dealer that has a good relationship with the manufacturer and wants to keep you happy is worth something. I know nothing about the brands you mention ,but some that are here in the US are better that others. One in particular is known for claiming big saving . What they don't tell you is that they cheap out on parts that you wouldn't think to look at , hubs , bottom brackets , rims , headsets , etc.

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

You two are different enough in sizes that she's not going to learn anything meaningful about a bike that's sized properly for you.

The thing about most bike sizes is that the sizes are based on the old school sizing method of seat tube length, which came about on the super old school totally horizontal top tube road bikes. Bikes aren't made like that anymore for the most part, and even road bikes these days use some variation of a sloping top tube "compact" geometry. REALLY what matters for bike sizes the most is the length of the bike. The top tube measurement (usually given as "effective top tube" because it's measured based on the assumption of a perfectly horizontal top tube, therefore it's a virtual dimension) gives you information about the seated fit of the bike. The reach measurement gives you information about the fit of the bike when you stand. On a mountain bike, you tend to stand up a lot more than you do for other types of riding, so reach is relatively more important. But ETT is still important, because depending on where/what you're riding, you could also spend a lot of time doing seated pedaling, too. My mtb rides tend to be close to 50/50 seated/standing.

Anyway, with all the sloping and curved top tubes on bikes now, standover is increasingly irrelevant. But most bikes are still sized with the assumption that people's body proportions are "middle of the curve" with regards to torso length vs. inseam length. So what happens is that makes fit weird for ppl who are near the extremes of that statistical distribution.

If you really think about it, the absolute least adjustable dimension on a bike is its length. You can adjust a couple cm at most with a stem swap. Even 2cm will cause notable changes to handling, though. More than that? You've got the wrong size frame for sure. The MOST adjustable part is the seatpost height. So, with frame sizing, let's pick a frame that fits your torso FIRST AND FOREMOST. Now, if you're at the extreme of the distribution on that. And in your case, you're on the long torso/short inseam side (not extremely so, but enough to mess with you), that might mean sizing up on some frames. On some of those frames, going with the longer frame might mean you have less seatpost exposed, which means you have less room for a dropper post. On some of those frames, it might mean the top tube is higher than you like. Those aren't really fit considerations, but if those things are important to you, then you can use them to rule out certain frames and narrow your selection.

I think your body proportions are easier to fit than the guy who's 6'2 or 6'3, but has a shorter torso than you. What happens to those folks is that their seatpost has to be miles higher than their handlebars. This puts them into a position that requires massive flexibility to achieve, and probably some really high riser bars on top of it. And it still biases their weight distribution a lot farther forward than is ideal.

So for you, at least on most bikes, a Large will probably fit your torso best. Exceptions might occur for bikes that are longer than most others (where you might choose a Med or whatever is comparable in their lineup), or for bikes that are super short (maybe you'd choose an XL). Some bikes just fit some people weird. Me, I can't get along with Santa Cruz bikes.

One thing this does is it means that if you want the best fitting bike, you need to be less picky about price. Because limiting yourself too much based on price is probably going to eliminate some bikes that otherwise might fit you great. What seems to be the rule among bike manufacturers is that the less expensive a bike is relative to its competition, one of the things that the manufacturers make cuts on is sizing. One importantly obvious way this is reflected is simply the number of sizes. Some of the bargain basement brands only offer a single size. Above that, maybe only 2 or 3 sizes. This can be problematic for people who are especially short or especially tall, and for people whose body proportions are a little different. My wife, for example, is a height that most people think should be riding a small frame. But the vast majority of smalls don't work for her at all. Her arms are short enough that a small restricts her ability to make meaningful changes to the position of her center of mass, which is super important in mountain biking. She needs to size down to an XS frame to get enough range of motion. Precious few manufacturers offer XS frame sizes.

Other things you might encounter on lower priced bikes are dated geometries, or sometimes even outright bizarre frame geometries. Dated geometries aren't a problem per se. BUT the big caveat here is that dated frame geometries were generally very short in the reach/ETT department and relied on much longer stems, which is not a good thing for folks with long torsos. Weird geometries might not be a big deal if all you do is easy gravel and neighborhood cruising, but they can become problematic if you get into true singletrack mtb riding on rough trails, descents at speed, etc.

Here I go rambling. Suffice to say, there's no true settled science to bike fitting. There's a lot of art involved with it. There's a little wiggle room depending on preferences and whatnot. When you listen to advice you get from people (especially when that advice differs), you need to consider the perspectives of those giving that advice. What's their knowledge base, what's their experience? In this case, what bikes do these people ride, where do they ride them? In the end, you're the one making the decision so you have to decide what works best for you. In this case, the only way to really do that is to ride a bunch of bikes. And at least in some cases, might involve riding the same bike in multiple sizes so you can gain real life perspective on how those different sizes feel. The pandemic certainly doesn't make that process easier right now. But it is what it is.


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## guerillamahn (Nov 29, 2020)

Wow thanks for the very detailed response!

This whole thing is really making my head spin haha. I think obviously the ideal situation just doesn't easily exist, to be able to test-drive all the candidates. I really need to decide about a style of bike I guess. Part of me thinks a more traditional style XC approach would really fit the kind of riding we will be doing locally often since mostly what is available to ride nearby is quite mild with a few exceptions but nothing extensive really in the proper trail -> "enduro" direction except for a couple courses on some small mountains a local club maintains would have to drive about 2-4 hours for any proper MTB trails. I guess I just wish I knew what I was getting myself into by possibly buying a bit of a stretched out trail oriented hardtail and then mostly taking it for rides where I might end up being sat down for at least half of the time or more. Though maybe that isn't so bad, I just don't know exactly what the draw backs are really like. I will mull it over a bit more but my instinct for now is to get something a bit traily and modern and just maybe just getting some mild roll happy tires for the local stuff or something.

Anyway, a few new candidates have now come to the table:

The brand new Canyon Stoic 4 which seems very promising on paper: https://www.canyon.com/en-de/mounta...?dwvar_2661_pv_rahmenfarbe=GN#!accordions=0_1

https://reviews.mtbr.com/canyon-stoic-hardtail-first-look

It looks like L for the stoic would fit me good, though as expected they don't recommend it for my dimensions; granted it is clearly a new bike that they are trying to match to the trends so maybe the M actually does fit me well in this case? Note the L for the Stoic has a 4mm longer top tube and 16mm longer reach.

M is sold out already but L is still instock, despite Germans being quite tall generally haha. I have to say the Stoic geo makes me really want to go for it over the Cragger, the price point is basically the same too, actually quite like the green too. Though I feel like the Cragger has better components... but I am gonna try to make my decision based on geo more.

Also the Santa Cruz Chameleon in L has started to interest me as a bit of a traily all rounder that might be good for our local trails tho maybe a bit too in the XC direction if more proper trails start to be ridden regularly.

Finally there is the chance I might say **** it and go for another proper XC bike in Large but I dunno mostly I really want to get something more trail oriented.

Thanks again for all the input everyone!


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

guerillamahn said:


> Not that I am aware of but :idea:
> 
> Yeah, I've accepted that it is a bit short however it really is doable and anyways I am a noob and the biggest point is I can still get out and get the time in on it trying to gain general confidence/skills etc the perfect bike can wait really... oh wait that will be actually easier after today haha
> 
> ...


Judging from the pic, the one thing I'd say you need to adjust for girlfriend is the seat height is slightly too high. It looks like at max extension, her knee is close to fully locked, thats not ideal. And when you drop the seat, you may not need to shorten the stem.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

guerillamahn said:


> Wow thanks for the very detailed response!
> 
> This whole thing is really making my head spin haha. I think obviously the ideal situation just doesn't easily exist, to be able to test-drive all the candidates. I really need to decide about a style of bike I guess. Part of me thinks a more traditional style XC approach would really fit the kind of riding we will be doing locally often since mostly what is available to ride nearby is quite mild with a few exceptions but nothing extensive really in the proper trail -> "enduro" direction except for a couple courses on some small mountains a local club maintains would have to drive about 2-4 hours for any proper MTB trails. I guess I just wish I knew what I was getting myself into by possibly buying a bit of a stretched out trail oriented hardtail and then mostly taking it for rides where I might end up being sat down for at least half of the time or more. Though maybe that isn't so bad, I just don't know exactly what the draw backs are really like. I will mull it over a bit more but my instinct for now is to get something a bit traily and modern and just maybe just getting some mild roll happy tires for the local stuff or something.
> 
> ...


Thing is, everyone is always pushing the newer as though you can't ride on anything else.
I've ridden a smaller bike park on a Tallboy v1, which if you listen to a lot people, you'd die if you attempted too.

I've had a more modern geo bike with a steep seat tube angle- it put a lot more pressure on my hands/wrists and I had to sell it after a few months. I'm not the only person to experience this when your terrain is more rolling vs long ups with long downs.

So be careful getting pushed into a 'modern' trail bike as it may not be the best for you base on the riding you describe.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

TwoTone said:


> Thing is, everyone is always pushing the newer as though you can't ride on anything else.
> I've ridden a smaller bike park on a Tallboy v1, which if you listen to a lot people, you'd die if you attempted too.
> 
> I've had a more modern geo bike with a steep seat tube angle- it put a lot more pressure on my hands/wrists and I had to sell it after a few months. I'm not the only person to experience this when your terrain is more rolling vs long ups with long downs.
> ...


Yeah, I don't think a super modern, progressive hardtail like the Moxie would really suit OP's riding, either. But something moderately so would probably work well enough and give OP some flexibility. Even OP's current bike would be fine for the sort of riding he's described, if it was the right size.

I don't consider the Chameleon an overly progressive bike. It is a little bit, but it's not designed to be a super progressive bike. It's designed to be versatile. For regular trail riding, bikepacking, and a bit of rowdy riding, too. I've ridden one and enjoyed it. The bike I currently have is more progressive, but the Moxie is quite a bit moreso still. Certainly making a huge change in geometry can feel really weird and disconcerting, too. I know for me, that moving to a bike with a steeper seat tube that biased my body a bit more forward required some time to adapt and engage other muscles to minimize the hand pressure issue.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

Do yourself a favor and forget the idea of another medium. Your clearly a size Large! Depending on the reach you can adjust some of this with stem length but you need to be in a large size. Good luck. 


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

trmn8er said:


> Do yourself a favor and forget the idea of another medium. Your clearly a size Large! Depending on the reach you can adjust some of this with stem length but you need to be in a large size. Good luck.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So you're saying no matter the frame he is a large? Ridiculous over simplification.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

Ridiculous for him to be on a Medium. Of course there are those bikes at extreme ends of sizing but generally at 5’11 1/2” he should be on a Large all day every day. 


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

trmn8er said:


> Ridiculous for him to be on a Medium. Of course there are those bikes at extreme ends of sizing but generally at 5'11 1/2" he should be on a Large all day every day.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So then it's not clear cut that he should be on a large, depends on the bike. What a concept.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

TwoTone said:


> So then it's not clear cut that he should be on a large, depends on the bike. What a concept.


Flippant much? It's pretty obvious to most people that at a hair under 6' he should almost certainly be on a large.

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## guerillamahn (Nov 29, 2020)

Guys guys guys let's all just get along hahaha  but yeah again thanks for all the continued input everyone!

So I think I am at the point where I really am at a loss as to what to do haha. I came across the BMC Twostroke recently and was impressed with the frame and thought it is perhaps a good fit for me however it is of course totally sold out and with corona BS this is all too common and perhaps gonna be really bad for a while so I have a bit of FOMO going on now. I think if it was possible I am nearly at the point where I would just be ordering a Chameleon frame and try building one myself but you can't order the frames and apparently they won't be available for at least 6 months but likely 1 yr plus. The BMC twostroke in AL seems pretty interesting for my riding but yeah also out of stock and frameset not orderable so yeah I am pretty ****ed whenever I find a frame that seems good haha.

As far as enduro directions HTs go I am getting to the point where I really think that might be a bit silly due to the local trails and bulk of what my riding will be, granted I don't really understand all the drawbacks and so on associated with having a bike that is too stretched or aggressive for mild riding.

Aggro XC bikes seem interesting and maybe all rounders like the chameleon as well. Granted there is no good option here because of such market scarcity it is all that much more complicated. Kinda worried I will be bikeless for the season start if I don't order fairly soon. Used bikes are possible sure, I watch the Germany wide market a lot and honestly it is hit or miss and at the very least things are sold surprisingly fast, very much a seller market across the board it seems. 

For now I am looking at possibly buying bikes that I think the frames are good on with kit I am not so in love with - with the idea that maybe parting the bike out and kitting it out myself (eventually or immediately, not sure). 


The base AL version of the Chameleon is supposedly still available from a few smaller websites over here, kinda suspect though since that bike is supposed to be sold out, gonna call them tomorrow. The AL version of the bmc twostroke is also sold out as mentioned however 1 seller I asked said he pre-ordered a few and can get me the base model in AL but I am also a bit suspect there; just don't want to place an order and have someone give me the whole spiel about it being delayed and delayed because they're desperate to get orders. 

Alternatively it seems more confident to say that I can get a base version of the Canyon Stoic and then maybe build it out better, that frame is definitely more the modern aggro style so I am afraid a bit about how it will be for me locally but yeah this bike has a frame that seems a bit better suited to my short legs; the cragger is nearly out - I think the price and build seems really good and lots of people are happy with theirs I just feel like it is also maybe a bit aggro for me or at the least it really seems made for long legged people. 

I think in the end I will just never order a bike and be doomed to grabbing something in a panic off some used classifieds sometime in Jan or February after I realize I waited too long and everything is sold out until 2022 hahahahha :madman:


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

The way things are right now, don't get yourself all tied up in knots over too many details.

I would avoid any of the extremely progressive frames (hardtail or full suspension) for your style of riding. Something versatile would do well. Compromising on the build kit is probably wise at this point if you actually want to get something. You can always change out parts.

So realistically, that gives you a reasonable variety of options. If there's something you REALLY want, set up stock notifications or something. Just stay flexible though and if something looks like it'll work and is in stock, jump on it.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

guerillamahn said:


> For now I am looking at possibly buying bikes that* I think the frames are good *on with kit I am not so in love with - with the idea that maybe parting the bike out and kitting it out myself (eventually or immediately, not sure).


Frame is the most important thing... everything else are just placeholders till you upgrade.

Considering it is winter, are you going to need a better bike soon? I know Berlin-Brandenburg is quite warm with barely any real winter. But your current bike may be OK till the supply situation improves and the "Right bike" becomes available. I personally rather suffer 6 more months, before settling on something just because it "is available right now" . Especially assuming you ride less in winter than in summer.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

guerillamahn said:


> In a slightly early mid-life crisis move a local man splurges on a fancy new MTB; neighbors marvel at him falling over repeatedly in local parks, cursing.
> 
> Well I guess it was a bit click-baity with the thread title but it is pretty much true however it isn't really the point of this thread. Mostly I am gonna just post a few pix of me on my new (first MTB) bike because I am curious if anyone has any input into bike fit.
> 
> ...


Looks okay to me. Have fun.


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## guerillamahn (Nov 29, 2020)

Hey guys again thanks for the continued input. 

So for now I have kinda gotten a bit settled on the BMC Twostroke and Santa Cruz Chameleon - I have emailed and called several dealers, mostly it is dire news. On the BMC front it is generally very dire, as in not until 2022. However one actually local dealer claimed (without trying to push an order on me) that they expect a few Twostroke AL's to come soon however he couldnt say when yet and didn't want to promise; he claimed they already ordered a few for the shop and actually got the carbon ones a couple weeks back so maybe it isnt all hot air. They will call when they hear anything, so I am hoping that it is soon. But yeah all other BMC dealers I have contacted have either said no chance until 2022 or they will get back to me or that at best they are looking at first quarter 2021; so who knows.

The Chameleon... well I just missed the boat on that, on some German forums there was chatter about a recent sale just around black friday that one website had and that looks like that was it for AL frames for that bike. One member offered to sell me a M frame but I think I am very much an L on that bike, too bad. I am gonna call ONE website that claims to have the Chameleon AL in L... INSTOCK tomorrow but I don't have high hopes, I am pretty sure their website is just errored because literally everyone else says everything is gone and earliest arrival would be late May 2021. 

I will see about those 2 models as they are my top picks for the frames for now but def would tend to go for the cheapest offering respectively then part it out gradually for better components. Framesets are unheard of unless I get lucky on the used market.

So yeah, focusing on those two models right now since they seem like maybe a good fit for my riding and body size. Anything else right now is very much unattainable or probably not so suitable. The only other thing is I consistently will be watching the German used markets for anything interesting  however maybe one day I will just lose patience and order a "traditional" or dated XC or mild trail bike from one of the cheap German direct sales brands again haha  excited to see what it ends up being!


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

https://www.canyon.com/en-de/mounta...toic-4/2661.html?dwvar_2661_pv_rahmenfarbe=GN

Just announced. So maybe you'll have better luck. Shipping March 1st.


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## guerillamahn (Nov 29, 2020)

eb1888 said:


> https://www.canyon.com/en-de/mounta...toic-4/2661.html?dwvar_2661_pv_rahmenfarbe=GN
> 
> Just announced. So maybe you'll have better luck. Shipping March 1st.


Yeah I saw it and it was quickly sold out and backed up but yeah I think it isn't the best fit for my uses so I think it isn't really in the running anymore.

So I am starting to think about just going for a Chameleon build, the cheaper one in AL and then swapping parts on it eventually but yeah I think I would be more interested in having a swing at a self build on that but frames are impossible to find and arent gonna be available until late may in the best case.

Otherwise I would take a chance and see if I can get a BMC Twostroke maybe, though nobody has any and all the dealers can't really give me concrete info about delivery on them with the best outlook being one of them claiming first quarter 2021. Anyway projected stuff like that with the corona setting seem a bit risky and I am a bit worried about big delays and shortages.


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## guerillamahn (Nov 29, 2020)

Hey everyone,

so I have managed to narrow it down like mentioned in the last post: the final bikes in the running for blind ordering (due to covid there really is no way to check anything out) are: the Santa Cruz Chameleon AL or BMC Twostroke AL









Twostroke AL TWO


Twostroke AL TWO




www.bmc-switzerland.com





more detailed about the BMC bike: 2021 BMC Twostroke AL Two Bike

one video of a good walk around of the BMC bike: 












Chameleon - Mountain Bike | Santa Cruz Bicycles


Our most fun-loving hardtail mountain bike. 29" or mixed wheel options and an aluminum frame. Adjustable dropouts allow for geared or single speed setups. You can build this bike however you want!




www.santacruzbicycles.com





The BMC is a bit longer and has a bit steeper seat tube angle but generally they are quite similar bikes I guess. The BMC seems like a better deal really, I would be looking at the lowest base AL models of both and would then be looking to upgrade bits of the bike slowly over the year. I haven't seen the bikes in person but from what I gather they both seem like pretty quality frames; too bad there isn't more info for the really new BMC Twostroke AL, compared to the Chameleon there is next to no owner info out there (not so surprising considering how much newer it is).

Worries are that there are some issues with the frame or maybe that the chameleon is somehow easier to upgrade and it can be confirmed by many owners about what people do to upgrade; the BMC is newer territory and for a noob I guess it is a bit scarier than the chameleon.

Do you all think both bikes would be easy to work on? Would I need to consider any differences in the headtube, the chameleon has an integrated one that supposedly makes installing the fork easier? The BMC has an integrated fork stopper, would that make anything more complicated? I guess any input on these specifics would be interesting, or in general.

I tracked down ONE dealer in Munich that has a BMC AL Two in L for 1200 Euros - I am waiting to hear how much shipping it to me will cost. I also have found ONE dealer in the north that will ship me a base AL Chameleon for 1950 Euros. I would plan to upgrade both slowly over the coming year but at least both work well enough as is. Granted they are fairly different bikes so it is a bit strange that they arent the same style per se but I think they have similarities enough and in the end I am not so sure I know exactly what is the right call anyway LOL


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

To think about upgrading before even buying is in my opinion the wrong way to buy a bike. Either buy a bike you can afford with the intention of riding it basically as is or save more money and get a bike that has pretty much everything on it. It's always cheaper to buy once.

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

rangeriderdave said:


> To think about upgrading before even buying is in my opinion the wrong way to buy a bike. Either buy a bike you can afford with the intention of riding it basically as is or save more money and get a bike that has pretty much everything on it. It's always cheaper to buy once.
> 
> Sent from my LM-X220 using Tapatalk


I agree with this sentiment. If you take a pretty measured approach to upgrading and only upgrade something when you've worn it out or broken it and it needs replacing either way, it's likely that standards will have changed by the time you reach that point, and that may inhibit your ability to upgrade (or make your upgrade require changing more parts/cost more).

I'll say this. That BMC is an XC bike. It may be new geo XC, but it's still an XC bike. Only 100mm of travel. The travel length suits the sort of riding you describe doing, but it's worth pointing out that an xc riding position tends to stretch you out into a more athletic position, which tends to reward higher flexibility and core strength, whereas a more "trail" oriented geometry (like the Chameleon) gives the rider a little bit more relaxed/upright position.

One place you can see this is in the Stack dimension of the frame. The Chameleon is 19mm taller than the BMC. The BMC is longer in the Reach department, but at least part of this is going to be BECAUSE it has less stack. Because of head tube angles, the taller the stack (which is measured to the center of the head tube), the shorter the reach, all else equal.

Some other points:

The BMC uses a 27.2 seat post diameter. FEW dropper posts are available in this size. Some exist, but options are limited, and based on some anecdotes, I think the 27.2mm versions of at least some droppers are less durable.
The Santa Cruz has adjustable dropouts. You can set the chameleon up as a singlespeed if mountain biking ends up making you a little crazy. You can also adjust the dropout position to change the handling of the bike depending on what you like (changes the chainstay length and wheelbase length).
I see mention on the BMC page about an integrated fork stopper. Which means if you crash and your bars whip around (like always happens), the fork crown will strike the downtube. BMC put plastic/rubber protectors on, which appear to be part of the integrated cable ports. I'm not a fan. Your fork adjuster knobs will probably get damaged eventually. There's a chance those integrated protectors will get damaged/lost eventually, too.
Now while I don't think the riding OP has described so far fits a super progressive long travel hardtail, I also don't think the riding described so far fits an xc race bike like this BMC. I'm not holding up the Chameleon as the pinnacle of bikes for what OP is describing, but it would suit. Something like the Salsa Timberjack would, too. Though I have no idea about the availability of that bike overseas. But it is another example of a versatile hardtail that would suit OP's riding.


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

rangeriderdave said:


> To think about upgrading before even buying is in my opinion the wrong way to buy a bike. Either buy a bike you can afford with the intention of riding it basically as is or save more money and get a bike that has pretty much everything on it. It's always cheaper to buy once.
> 
> Sent from my LM-X220 using Tapatalk


Strongly disagree.

You can be riding now, or riding six months to a year from now? Eff that. Buy the cheaper model, and reward yourself with upgrades over time. Buy now, ride now.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Colo Springs E said:


> Strongly disagree.
> 
> You can be riding now, or riding six months to a year from now? Eff that. Buy the cheaper model, and reward yourself with upgrades over time. Buy now, ride now.


I take your point, and riding is better than not riding at all, but there are some caveats around buying a cheap bike with a view to upgrading components later on.

For example, if the frame doesn't support Boost spacing, you're limiting yourself in terms of future wheelset upgrades. If your hub cannot accept 12-speed cassettes, you've eliminated that upgrade path until you sort that piece.


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## guerillamahn (Nov 29, 2020)

Hey everyone, wanted to chime in again, this time with news that I finally pulled the trigger on my bike purchase.

There was a lot of back and forth but I ended up going with a used Chameleon Carbon S in size large that I got a pretty good deal for locally (about a 1 hour drive). I checked it out yesterday, test drive and all, then decided to go for it and drove home with it. I really like the bike but have yet to have a proper ride on it, the carbon frame seems really really nice but part of me still kinda thinks an AL frame would suit me better or at least my anxiety about breaking this frame but maybe its not that big of a deal haha. The bike is in the S trim and is a 2019, the only part that seems maybe not so great is perhaps the rockshox reverb dropper but it seems fine for now. The bike feels really solid and a good fit! Lookin forward to getting pedals on it and getting some good rides in ASAP!

Specs of the S bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Chameleon S Carbon Bike

Customary new bike shot:


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

Colo Springs E said:


> Strongly disagree.
> 
> You can be riding now, or riding six months to a year from now? Eff that. Buy the cheaper model, and reward yourself with upgrades over time. Buy now, ride now.


If you read the whole statement ,that's what I said . Buy now ,ride as is ,learn about bikes and what you like and how you ride. It also depends on how you define "upgrade" ,if you wear something out is 6 months ,you might want something better. If you might think you will upgrade the fork in 6 months ,then you should buy a better bike to start with. I don't consider tires , pedals or saddles upgrades.


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

rangeriderdave said:


> If you read the whole statement ,that's what I said . Buy now ,ride as is ,learn about bikes and what you like and how you ride. It also depends on how you define "upgrade" ,if you wear something out is 6 months ,you might want something better. If you might think you will upgrade the fork in 6 months ,then you should buy a better bike to start with. I don't consider tires , pedals or saddles upgrades.


Fair. I agree that things like tires, pedals etc aren't necessarily "upgrades" but rather, relatively inexpensive ways to improve your bike. As for the fork.... I guess it just depends. If I spent a grand on a bike, and a year later dropped $500 into having a better fork installed. After 12 months, I'm $1500 in, but for 12 months of that time I was riding/wearing out a lesser fork. If I had to wait that 12 months to buy the bike with that better fork... I dunno, I'd rather buy the cheaper one now, bang the **** out of it, and either "upgrade" by getting a better bike, or if I really liked my bike otherwise, investing in a better fork. Seems like we mostly agree. Ride on!


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

guerillamahn said:


> Hey everyone, wanted to chime in again, this time with news that I finally pulled the trigger on my bike purchase.
> 
> There was a lot of back and forth but I ended up going with a used Chameleon Carbon S in size large that I got a pretty good deal for locally (about a 1 hour drive). I checked it out yesterday, test drive and all, then decided to go for it and drove home with it. I really like the bike but have yet to have a proper ride on it, the carbon frame seems really really nice but part of me still kinda thinks an AL frame would suit me better or at least my anxiety about breaking this frame but maybe its not that big of a deal haha. The bike is in the S trim and is a 2019, the only part that seems maybe not so great is perhaps the rockshox reverb dropper but it seems fine for now. The bike feels really solid and a good fit! Lookin forward to getting pedals on it and getting some good rides in ASAP!
> 
> ...


wow!! what a nice bike! I wouldn't worry a bit about that carbon frame, I'd ride the hell outta that thing. Man, that's beautiful-- Enjoy!


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## guerillamahn (Nov 29, 2020)

Colo Springs E said:


> wow!! what a nice bike! I wouldn't worry a bit about that carbon frame, I'd ride the hell outta that thing. Man, that's beautiful-- Enjoy!


Hey, thanks! Really like it too, lookin forward to spring! Gonna get a few colder weather rides in though, however a bit warmer makes it much more fun!


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