# Trail nazis



## David C (May 25, 2011)

Sorry to post this up in passion forum, but I think it's really important.


Short recap of the situation at the best of my knowledge here : 

In Montreal, QC we have a mountain named Mont-Royal. This mountain is a public property and cover many districts over the city. Many many years ago (in the 90's), DH trails and MTB trails were build by the city to allow people to ride properly and help preserve the mountain. This was long ago. I wasn't even there at that time.

Now since years, the city do not maintain those trails as MTB trails, but simply as hiking trails. Bicycles and other wheeled/motorized vehicles are not allowed there anymore since at least 10 years or so. But since Montreal is an island (a bit like New York city) with a god damn mountain on it, MTB and other outdoor people have to choose between driving 45+ minutes to the nearest mountains or just walk/ride up to the Mont-Royal. The later is very common, and understandable. But with the decision of the city to remove bikes from the trails, riding there is no legal officially. With a few active groups engaging negotiations with the city since many years to get the Mont-Royal trails back to MTB riding, they kind of tolerate our presence as long as we stay civil and polite (like on any other multi-user trail system in the world) and that we don't destroy the trails too (still lot of dumbass who ride muddy sections and always locking their wheels).

The only legal place to ride a bike on the mountain is a gravel road that slowly slope up to the top of the mountain. This road is a multi-user road and is about 30 large. And the speed limit is 20km/h. This gravel road suck for a MTBer. Unless you're cross-training, you'll get bored after 5 minutes of continuous dusty gravel climbing.

Back to the trails :

The trails are still very nice, and a few landscape of the DH sections still remain, mostly the ones made out of rocks and wooden features. But since it's a public property, everyone can access at any time and there's not much police activity going on. They are about 10 police horses for the whole mountain. And they take some serious dump on the gravel road and some trails btw. But they can't be everywhere and 24/7. So that leave plenty of space and time for some to vandalism the trails.

The real problem is the trails nazis. They are not an organized group (as far as we know) and they seems to act at random hours of the day (or night) and just all over the mountain. I and a friend personally suspect some homeless guys to take part into the vandalism and other drugees or mean minded persons. They will stack old trees into the trails, mostly in a way you can't see it before it's too late or sometimes to break the flow and force you to walk it off. Sometimes they also plan it so if you're not a too experimented rider (plenty of them over there) you'll hit the brakes and damage the trail in order to avoid crashing.

Plus they (and others) leave all sorts of trash and garbages over the mountain. Mostly homeless people and drugees and also wasted drunk people or the ones that don't give a f**ck about cleaning up when they're done drinking/smoking.

Those actions are making everyone sad and affect a lot the relation between riders and hikers since most hikers don't mind the sticks and lot of them thinks it's MTBers who are trying to have some fun jumping the logs.

I never got hurt, always been careful, but I had a few close call on some. It's a royal pain since every time you're going into a section you don't know or it's been a few days you didn't go, you mostly have to walk by your bike and clear the section if needed. Then you can either walk back to the start and ride the section or just ride back and try another section. A friend of mine, who's also on this forum, told me his friend had a very bad crash due to those traps. I can't say if it's true or not since I don't know his friend, but I'm ready to bet my bikes that every years there's a few bad crashes happening because of those trail nazis.

This **** is insane. The only thing I can do is clear and repair the trails when I ride there. The police won't do **** either. They are some lazy butt on this case. Not that they don't want it to stop, but they don't want to start patrolling the area more often and take drastic measures to catch the individuals and make it stop for good. Plus there is always a few pushers at the "trail head" and they seems to get interested at my bike each time I get there. From now on, I'll carry my telescopic baton and if I ever catch a trail nazi, he's gonna be the one laying down on the trail with a tree up his ass and face down in the mud. And tire tracks on his back 

And the city is just plain incompetent. And because the mountain his on so many different districts, they are making it a pain for community action group to get the go on trail maintenance. So far all the trail maintenance we do could get us in jail since we are not allow by the law to alter a public property. But they're not chasing the right guy. They should be after the nazis. They should be.

I figured out if enough people know about it, some could come up with solutions or even great tips and provide great info on similar situations.

Attached are a few pictures of today's and yesterday's rides. The last one is in fact a work of mine in order to close a section where there is a big mud hole and to prevent from total trail loss.

I love my bike and I love my mountain. I feel so damn lucky to have it right side downtown and in the middle of the city. Please help us keep on enjoying it for years to come.

Thanks very much.


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## olegbabich (Dec 28, 2007)

I hate Trail Nazis.:madmax:


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

The other pictures :


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## Dresdenlock (Aug 10, 2009)

I wouldnt ride there if I was you..yes its nice having a trail in your back yard...but is it worth the risk?...if you really want to ride it so badly...get you and a bunch of your friends together and talk to the city about it..start a petition..get a bunch of people to sign it....go to a town meeting and get up and make a request...talk to a council person about it..tell them whats happening...maybe talk to the police about patrolling better...most of the places I ride have someone working on them all the time..I have ridden a couple of bandit trails before and its a crap shoot...you never know what might happen...be prepared for anything..thats the risk you are going to have to take riding at such a place....nothing will ever happen unless you do something about it.


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

Land Managers (and the non-riding public) need to understand that having mountain bikers around tends to keep out bad elements. Bad people don't hang out where someone could ride up on them at any moment. Mountain bikers tend to trails and, yup!, even pick up trash. Mountain bikers are good for trails.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

*A bit of today's ride bike art to cheer it up*

Don't worry, I didn't ride the water flow, I took care placing the bike on solid ground and not damage the terrain


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Dresdenlock said:


> I wouldnt ride there if I was you..yes its nice having a trail in your back yard...but is it worth the risk?...if you really want to ride it so badly...get you and a bunch of your friends together and talk to the city about it..start a petition..get a bunch of people to sign it....go to a town meeting and get up and make a request...talk to a council person about it..tell them whats happening...maybe talk to the police about patrolling better...most of the places I ride have someone working on them all the time..I have ridden a couple of bandit trails before and its a crap shoot...you never know what might happen...be prepared for anything..thats the risk you are going to have to take riding at such a place....nothing will ever happen unless you do something about it.


Forgot to specify that there is already groups and petitions going on since years, but it's so tangled up into administrative procedures it's like nightmare. The city is well aware of the situation. And *they think* they have bigger problem to take care first... Those are actually a slight part of the whole mountain. It's a big area. Those trails are not "illegal". Just that city don't allow wheeled and motorized vehicles to ride them. And I'd like to go ride somewhere else. But I don't have a car and even if I did I would have to drive at least 1h or so, not mentioning traffic jam and that I'm on an island, which means the only way out are bridges and tunnels and more of 50% of the person on the island actually live outside of Montreal, so they are all taking the bridges and tunnels every days... That's a lot of people. Plus I don't have time to drive for 2 hours round trip to go ride 30 minutes and than be back before lunch and go to class you know...

Let's say it's like Central Park in New York. How would you act if people start vandalism the whole place and the city won't do **** about it ? (I know it's not exactly the same, but you can understand the similarity).


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

June Bug said:


> Land Managers (and the non-riding public) need to understand that having mountain bikers around tends to keep out bad elements. Bad people don't hang out where someone could ride up on them at any moment. Mountain bikers tend to trails and, yup!, even pick up trash. Mountain bikers are good for trails.


Yup, I already ride on a few teens groups smoking weeds. I received some very high comments about how big was my bike


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## AndyN (Jan 12, 2004)

You're illegally riding trails that are off limits to mountain bikers. Not sure what you're complaining about. Form an advocacy group and fight for mtb access to those trails, or ride somewhere else... or ride those trails illegally and deal with the consequences.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

AndyN said:


> You're illegally riding trails that are off limits to mountain bikers. Not sure what you're complaining about. Form an advocacy group and fight for mtb access to those trails, or ride somewhere else... or ride those trails illegally and deal with the consequences.


Please read my previous posts. Or go read other threads if you don't have anything better to say.

Thanks


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## ghglenn (Jan 26, 2012)

Hey David, these guys are listed as the IMBA contact for Montreal. I would see what they have to say about trail access in the area. Maybe they could help, or perhaps you could help them???

Club VéloÉpic :: Home


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## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

ghglenn said:


> Hey David, these guys are listed as the IMBA contact for Montreal. I would see what they have to say about trail access in the area. Maybe they could help, or perhaps you could help them???
> 
> Club VéloÉpic :: Home


Yeah, I second the idea of getting a club (local IMBA chapter, or other organized group) involved. You're not going to win alone. But if a group of good guys get together and present a positive front, you might get somewhere. Maybe organize a "clean up the woods" event, where a bunch of riders get together to pack out the trash--and then let the city and newspapers know that you're doing it. Sounds like the city is at least on the fence about biking, so maybe some positive energy will help tip the scales?


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

ghglenn said:


> Hey David, these guys are listed as the IMBA contact for Montreal. I would see what they have to say about trail access in the area. Maybe they could help, or perhaps you could help them???
> 
> Club VéloÉpic :: Home


Thanks, I know the club. They are mostly into setting up trips to trails outside Montreal.

I'm also aware of many groups that are negotiating. I already explained everything.

I'm just really sharing what's going on around here. I'm not hoping that the webz will solve all the problems, but for me it's a good way of sharing my thoughts and help relieve my mind.

Thanks for your support btw 



TobyGadd said:


> Yeah, I second the idea of getting a club (local IMBA chapter, or other organized group) involved. You're not going to win alone. But if a group of good guys get together and present a positive front, you might get somewhere. Maybe organize a "clean up the woods" event, where a bunch of riders get together to pack out the trash--and then let the city and newspapers know that you're doing it. Sounds like the city is at least on the fence about biking, so maybe some positive energy will help tip the scales?


Well I've kind of trying to organize something, but our MTB community around here is spread all around in small groups and even if I do my best to reach as much riders as I can, there is still plenty who don't even know about the existence of action groups. That's the problem. To reach everyone and coordinate something.

But again it's all about how much riders want to do. Many will answer the call, but they won't show up or take initiatives. Montreal is quite a big city and there is so much going on that even if a big news make the headers for a day or two, people will react and then it will be forgotten as soon as the next big news come in. Some will notice, but we really lack mobilization around here.

MTB community in Quebec is slowly dying and I'm not joking. With the big city not really bike friendly yet and more and more people getting into bike commuting and road biking, MTBing is re-league to a seasonal sport where you need to go to a resort, like skiing. I know this is not normal, but unfortunately that's what is happening.

However I'm an admin of a Facebook group for winter cycling in Montreal and we've gained up to 300 members this winter only. And we still get new members in every day. Commuting is really growing up fast around here. But since they're not very aware about the MTB situation at the Mont-Royal, they won't go and buy a MTB by themselves and ride on. But if they can find good resources (most likely we'll need to bring it to them), they might get more into local MTBing.

Don't forget we are talking about MTB in the middle of one of the biggest city in North America, plus one with the most cars moving around daily and that most of the people that come in town come for work. 50% of them live outside the island. So they don't even know about the trails, etc...

Funny as I met a guy today after exiting a trail. He was a student from Quebec city who came in Montreal yesterday for a manifestation and is going back home tomorrow. He was in hiking boots and gear, so I though he was a local. He told me it was his first time in Montreal and he heard about the Mont-Royal. He find it awesome and incredible we have such as wild zone in the middle of downtown. he really enjoyed the place.

Maybe that's what we need. Local people take for granted what they have and they tend to forget about how lucky they are. I never do. That's why I went riding my MTB 5 days in a row this week and unless it's raining I'm going back for more the next days.

And I could even try to set something around with the facebook group. That's a good idea. many people in there, and a few are working for the city. One of them is in fact a civil engineer and he might be able to help me out on setting up a plan.

Sorry for all the writing, I'm really just thinking out loud here


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## mealsonwheels (Mar 6, 2004)

The objects don't really look too bad IMHO, but I get what you are saying. We had a similar situation in an area down here in San Diego. All the trail in this area are out of bounds so to speak, and the trail nazi in this situation would do the same thing with far great vigilence. He/she/they took great pains to lay branches and brush across the trail and a group of us would faithfully remove them. A couple times we spent an hour removing branches and it cost us a ride, but here's what we found:

It's far easier for us to walk down a trail and clear the brush than it is for a guy to collect the brush and place it on the trail. We would throw the brush and sticks as far off the trail as possible making it as much of a hassle as possible for the nazis to replace the brush. In a matter of weeks they gave up and we had our singletrack back. It may cost you a little effort, but it's a lot more effort for them to do this than it is for you to clear it. Be persistent and hopefully they will give up.


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

The only thing I hate more than Trail Nazis are Illinois Trail Nazis.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Thanks, good advice.

Since Tuesday I've been riding pretty much the same trail section and on Thursday I removed half of everything on that section. There was about 8 mores to do. Today I only saw one new, a small one, but none of the ones I removed were back on. I managed to remove everything today. When possible, I'll break the logs/sticks so they cannot be used and I always try to throw them as far away from reach as possible. I'm not a big guy, so I had some fun time moving trees around, but like you said it could be worth it to put pressure on them by always cleaning ASAP. I'll see how it goes. I might even carry some plastic bags next time to pick up the trash too.

And I was thinking about carrying a small wood saw to help break down the bigger logs that I can move much or when I can break them by myself.

Plus there is a small looking tree that fall right across a very technical section and now people must walk in the mudholes to avoid it. I think I'm gonna bring a small saw and get it removed before too much damaged is done to the muddy part.

:thumbsup:


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## Dresdenlock (Aug 10, 2009)

you could always take some saws (hand saws) with you and cut up what they put on the trail...with it being all cut up...they have nothing to put on the trails.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Dresdenlock said:


> you could always take some saws (hand saws) with you and cut up what they put on the trail...with it being all cut up...they have nothing to put on the trails.


Or I could cut THEM up and use the plastic bag to carry the pieces out 

But seriously, I've seen some small trees behind broken down and used to block the trail on purpose by them.

I think having a constant presence on the trails would be likely to make a difference with how often they act. I'll try to get notice when riding those section and clearly throw away the logs so they see we're there and we're there to stay.


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

Catch them in the act of blocking the trail. Take pictures and video of them. Follow them to their cars and take more pictures and video of license numbers. Take the evidence to the police and file a complaint suggesting the setting of trail obstacles and booby traps. Give the story to local media.

You are in the right. Start acting like it. Or just remain a victim.


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## JonMX5 (Dec 22, 2011)

We have stuff like that on our trails too. They're called obstacles and we ride over them because that's what mountain bikes are made for.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

David C said:


> Bicycles and other wheeled/motorized vehicles are not allowed there anymore since at least 10 years or so.


You're riding illegal trails. You have no leg to stand on when you complain about people blocking these trails from bikes.

You are directly impairing any advocacy group's efforts to gain legal access to these trails by poaching. It would be like saying "I can drive 55 mph through a school zone because it's close to my house and that means I can ignore the law if I want".

If you really want access to those trails you need to ramp up your advocacy efforts and stop poaching the trails. Take some responsibility if you're so passionate. Contact your local groups and the national and international organizations in your area and get their support and advice. Stop leaving things to other people and stop breaking the law. It can take years to gain access to an area and the more you blatantly ignore the posted regulations the longer that is going to take. If you want to get your trails open you need to make your organization large and loud enough that the legislature can not ignore you.

Put up flyers at trail heads with a QR code and link to your facebook page you spoke about. Or start a new FB page all about gaining bicycle access to your mountain. I will warn you that many legislators don't recognize electronic petitions as valid forms of gauging public interest so put paper copies up in local bike shops. Spend weekends at the trail heads gathering signatures from non-bicycle trail users and educate them on why bicycles won't be a hinderance to the multi-use area.

People are well within their rights to attempt to block illegal access by bicycles and if you can't handle a stick in the path maybe you shouldn't be riding mountain bikes anyway. Those "obstacles" wouldn't stop me on a road bike let alone a mountain bike.

By removing the trail obstacles and riding illegally you are directly hampering your own efforts to get bicycles allowed on your trail. Get smart and get involved or continue to fight a battle that you won't win.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

Agree with your comment of the perps being mean-minded people much more than druggies or drunks. Have found my local trail nazi's to be hikers not wishing to share, and feel entitled to set traps for mtb-ers. By taking photos, clearing debris then you are helping to restore safe public access for all. Should a hiker be injured by trail sabotage, and require rescue the police will get involved.
In Canada is PBR not an import, and more $ than Molson?


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

To Zebrahum, good advices. The reason why I still ride there is because they tolerate our presence as long as we keep it nice and clean like I said earlier. The information stand thing is actually a interesting idea. Thanks for that one.

And I live only a few blocks away from the Molson factory. They're the biggest around.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

The thing that pizzes me off is that you have trails that were originally built by the city specifically for MTB now being re-zoned as Hiker trails, and now the MTB community has to fight to get back what was originally theirs. 

In all honesty, if I was there I would be riding as well. 

Good Luck

michael


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## xenon (Apr 16, 2007)

The sign in Hebrew reads: "This pothole formed as a result of riding bicycles" (Israel).


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Alright, so I went back today and followed a few advices given here.

I equipped myself with a small axe, folding hunter knife and a telescopic baton in case someone was looking for trouble.

I only had to use the hatchet, but I wish I could have brought a chainsaw 

Here's how it went :

Got to the trail section where the fallen tree was blocking the way to all users since more than a week and chop it off. Meanwhile a few persons passed by and I had very good comments about my work and the initiative to take on the job. I also had the chance to explain to a few why I was doing it and how I see the situation. We all agreed on the necessity to keep up the trails nice and clean and that MTBers should be way more careful around because they are always riding down mud holes and locking their wheels. That's about half the problem too. After a good 20 minutes of tree butchering, talking and taking short breaks I managed to get the tree out of the way and shape the trail nicely to preserve the section. Then I went ahead and did my best to help the small water flow to be damaged by users by creating a small paved crossing. I wish I had more materials and time to make something better, but it's off to a good start.

Then I rode to another near-by section where a decent sized tree has fallen since many months and the city never took any measure to remove it. I personally always ride the other section and I'm not affected by that log, but since I was there I took the time and make it good.

Then again I met some people who had different point of view, but they all agree on the fact that any trail maintenance won't be refused around here. I also again had the opportunity to teach some about how MTBers see the situation and how to help users enjoy the trails even more.

I met a guy who was carrying an empty beer can. I asked him if he needed a bag and amazingly he had one. Turned out in fact he picked up the can along the trail and was looking for a trashcan to dispose it. It was his first day ever here and he cannot believe how beautiful the place was. We had a great discussion and he was very friendly to *our* cause. Got lucky since I knew I've forgotten to bring plastic bags to pick up trash that day.

Then on my way back home, I met another MTBer who just finished riding too. Turns out it was also his first day here and he freakin' love the place. We talked a bit about bikes and stuff and we exchanged contact infos. Probably gonna have a few more riding buddies soon 

I felt very entertained and satisfied with my work today. Plus the reaction of most people was exciting. We might be on to something.

Pics :


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

*Moar pics*

I think the last one really show the satisfaction I had after being done with this section.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

David C said:


> I equipped myself with a small axe, folding hunter knife and a telescopic baton in case someone was looking for trouble.


David, I agree with zebrahum. You are caught in the worst possible situation where the authorities "tolerate" your(I use the term loosely) behavior on the trail. You said that technically it's illegal but you are not in trouble when you break the law they let it go. So when they decide that tomorrow they are going to start handing out ticket you have no leg to stand on.

Furthermore, carrying what can be considered as weapons is never a good idea, god forbid fight breaks out and you use the selected weapon to defend yourself, you'd pretty much put an end to the bike access on that trail.

I do think that what you did by cleaning up the trail is awesome and it's the way to go, if there are more of the mtb riders doing what you did today, it would be harder to ban mtb on the trail. We have to take the higher route not drop to their level. Good luck dude:thumbsup:

BTW, I hate the trail nazi as much as the next rider. A few times on the trail I rode I ran into a booby trap by a few hikers who we just passed a few minutes before as they looked oddly suspicious.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Well hell. Should we all just start pitching in for some pavement?


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## hoolie (Sep 17, 2010)

*I feel for you bro', just ride through it.*

I often dream of living in a town where there are 100's of miles of trail for bikes, but I like where I live (barely), so I ride where I need to. Everyone above has great perspectives. You cannot make people stop littering/booby trapping, they are sick. That's part of living around a huge population. I often think about the people in Mt bike towns like Ashland Oregon, or Colorado, and they are happy for generations. How can that be bad? If I was a surfer I would move to Hawaii, maybe SoCal. But Norcal is good for Mt biking, we have some of your problems and I quit the fight 10 yrs ago. I support advocacy when I can, but ride 4 days a week! Just ride man. If you can do more than ride I salute you (and the other advocates of our sport). Just ride man, and do what you can.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Mimi, I totally understand your position. I'd like to specify that the knife I was carrying was not to be used as a weapon but simply for trail work, same as the hatchet. The baton is for self defense and to be used in very last extreme resort. Those are not toys and I understand the implication of carrying such "tools" on public land. However I do not feel like I would try to defend myself with an axe or knife since I have to intentions of killing or inflicting severe damages and I would not like to get hurt too. That's why I decided it's better to have something I could grab onto and leave the blades away from the discussion.

I also understand about my delicate situation in case they decide not to tolerate us anymore. Hey, I'll grab the bill and obey the law then.

At least I'm not carrying a firearm and do not have any intention of ever use one for any other than shooting taget range and zombies.


Now on a second note, there's has been no new traps set today and I didn't saw much hatbands either. I'll bring some plastic bags tomorrow to clean out a few sections.

From what I've seen, people seems to be enjoying cleaner trails and are glad to see people taking care of the mountain. However I think they need to see the people in action to realize someone is actually doing something and that the trails are not being clean up by some kind of magic over night.

I'll try to intensify my presence over this zone as much as possible and make people see a difference as days goes on. Then they might just take on their on and spread the word all over the mountain.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

David C said:


> Now on a second note, there's has been no new traps set today and I didn't saw much hatbands either. I'll bring some plastic bags tomorrow to clean out a few sections.
> 
> From what I've seen, people seems to be enjoying cleaner trails and are glad to see people taking care of the mountain. However I think they need to see the people in action to realize someone is actually doing something and that the trails are not being clean up by some kind of magic over night.
> 
> I'll try to intensify my presence over this zone as much as possible and make people see a difference as days goes on. Then they might just take on their on and spread the word all over the mountain.


I think that's the best course of action, this promote a better perception of Mtb riders as well as encourage others to do the same, and it's very difficult for the ranger to hand you a ticket when you carry a bag full of trash from the trail.

I do that all the time I take my puppies hiking on the trail I usually ride and I have a black plastic bag and I clean up as I hike. However, I do wish people pick up after their dogs though, it's nasty.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Well luckily we don't too much "shitty" situations around. Only dump I see are the one taken by the police horses actually.

Our real trash is mostly plastic bags, beer bottle and cans, some glass bottles exploded all over the place, old news paper, etc. Quite easy trash to clean up at least.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

I was riding a 4-wheeler in Tahoe national forest a few years ago and ran into a trap set up by campers to stop me and my friends from rising by their camp, we think they were loggers working up there. We spent the whole day going by the camp, probably 12-15 times, we had 4 quads and about 10 people riding them. Me and another friend decided to take a night ride at about 11pm, I was leading and came up over a hill that I would catch a little air on and when I came down there was a log in the middle of the trail I don't remember what exactly happened but I woke up on my face and completely paralyzed. I waited a course minutes for my friend, he saw me and jumped back on his quad and went back to camp to get help, I laid there for about 20 min waiting and trying to think who would help me kill myself if I was paralyzed forever, then my legs moved and then my arms. I was airlifted to a hospital, had my C5-C7 fused and spent a month in the hospital.
If I ever see somebody booby trapping the trail, they will regret it


Sent from my iPhone


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## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Oh,yea,we have them here where we ride.really severe,broken and sheared bottles,boards with nails buried and of course tree limbs and rocks strewn about.there will be a run of this and then nothing for years! we do report to police but of course unless actually caught in the act nothing they can do.it's an act of terrorism if you ask me!


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Humm... Today is really rainy. More then I was hoping. I'll have to wait at least till tomorrow before I hit the trails again....


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## guilev (Dec 31, 2010)

David,

The "local IMBA" chapter would be the "Association pour le Développement des Sentiers de Vélo de Montagne au Québec", aka ADSVMQ. They have been working on the Mount Royal issue for years, example: Plan Métropolitain d'Aménagement et de Développement (page in French).

I suggest you get in touch with them. :thumbsup:


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

I do not have any pictures handy to show the destruction that horses and cows inflict on some of our local parks (San Francisco Bay area)

A week ago I was at an orienteering/rogaine race in East Bay hills. Bikes are prohibited from pretty much everywhere but a few wide fireroads.

Holy cows. I was running cross country for four hours - land it just covered in hoof holes. And they worry about "erosion" from bicycles?

In a local park in Palo Alto - all trails are just trashed by horses. They leave pile of manure on top of it to boot. But of course that's OK with local land managers..


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

guilev said:


> David,
> 
> The "local IMBA" chapter would be the "Association pour le Développement des Sentiers de Vélo de Montagne au Québec", aka ADSVMQ. They have been working on the Mount Royal issue for years, example: Plan Métropolitain d'Aménagement et de Développement (page in French).
> 
> I suggest you get in touch with them. :thumbsup:


Thanks. And I speak french too


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## KgB (Jan 13, 2004)

The obvious question is why are you removing obstacles that most people would just ride over, you are a trail sanitizer and that is way worse than a trail Nazi IMHO


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## snowjnky (Oct 7, 2005)

Use the obstacles to hone your skills. They do no seem impassable.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

KgB said:


> The obvious question is why are you removing obstacles that most people would just ride over, you are a trail sanitizer and that is way worse than a trail Nazi IMHO


That's a bit harsh. But those twigs are indeed in plain sight. You just roll over.. Maybe pull it up a bit over the bigger ones..


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

David C said:


> To Zebrahum, good advices. The reason why I still ride there is because they tolerate our presence as long as we keep it nice and clean like I said earlier. The information stand thing is actually a interesting idea. Thanks for that one.
> 
> And I live only a few blocks away from the Molson factory. They're the biggest around.


I understand your position on this issue, but you have to understand that you are *not* being tolerated on those trails. People are actively blocking bicycles from being able to use these trails; that doesn't sound like you're welcome there.

Every time you are out there on your bicycle cutting out blockages you're giving all cyclists a bad image. Every time a hiker sees you in this closed area, you are setting your cause back years. Trail systems get closed to cyclists because it is perceived that they are dangerous to other trail users, cause damage to trails, and have a lack of respect for both the area and other trail users. You're not exactly helping that image.

It's only a matter of time before there are official measures in place to block cyclists from these trails and you have to wise up and start taking the proper actions before you loose even the glimmer of hope that you currently have. It's not a bad sign that you are "tolerated" (though I disagree that you are) on those trails, that means that there might be sympathetic people out there to help you get your voice out and get your trails open.

We all want more places to ride, but if you're serious about being able to ride those trails you need to stop doing it illegally and start getting down to business. If you start an advocacy group for trail access and you start having success, who knows what you'll be able to accomplish for your local mountain biking scene?


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## Stupendous Man (Jan 12, 2004)

xenon said:


> The sign in Hebrew reads: "This pothole formed as a result of riding bicycles" (Israel).


Seriously?!?! WTF :madman:


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

zebrahum said:


> I understand your position on this issue, but you have to understand that you are *not* being tolerated on those trails. People are actively blocking bicycles from being able to use these trails; that doesn't sound like you're welcome there.
> 
> Every time you are out there on your bicycle cutting out blockages you're giving all cyclists a bad image. Every time a hiker sees you in this closed area, you are setting your cause back years. Trail systems get closed to cyclists because it is perceived that they are dangerous to other trail users, cause damage to trails, and have a lack of respect for both the area and other trail users. You're not exactly helping that image.
> 
> ...


The people over there didn't saw it like a bad thing at all to do some trail maintenance... They even thanks me and were glad someone take it on his own to clean the place. And it's a good thing they tolerate, since before they did not. It's an amelioration, not a downgrade. And yes, it's fairly complicated. Think about the work I'm doing there as a general trail user. Not as a cyclist. As a cyclist, I really don't give a **** about those small logs and ****. I can roll over easy. But as someone who just walk there, they are not going into a jungle... It's a place to walk and enjoy the nature. Not a obstacle course. Some enjoy the little obstacles, but people sticking logs across the trails are not making natural features, they are just making it a pain for everyone. I'm not going there start building ramps and jumps, moving rocks and building up new trails... I just work to keep the trails safe and clean, and as close as possible from the natural landscape. So removing fallen trees that are in the way and cleaning up trash isn't bad. Trees are very nice, but they are even better when they are standing up tall in the forest, not across a trail.

When I go there and do trail work, I'm thinking safety first and to make it the most pleasant for the users. Not for MTBers. If I'm there with my bike, it's simply to get there and carry my gear. Yes it's also MTBing at an extent, but just on my way back home 



KgB said:


> The obvious question is why are you removing obstacles that most people would just ride over, you are a trail sanitizer and that is way worse than a trail Nazi IMHO





snowjnky said:


> Use the obstacles to hone your skills. They do no seem impassable.





Axe said:


> That's a bit harsh. But those twigs are indeed in plain sight. You just roll over.. Maybe pull it up a bit over the bigger ones..


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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm not that good of a technical rider, but even I
could ride over that stuff.

Best, John

PS, poaching is bad.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

I logged in "no pun intended" expecting to see huge obstacles that may prove a detriment to life and limb.

Are you kidding me? You are worried about these small trees? 

Don't agree with chopping them down, but to be worried about not being able to get over or around them is silly.


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## laherna (Jun 14, 2009)

KgB said:


> The obvious question is why are you removing obstacles that most people would just ride over, you are a trail sanitizer and that is way worse than a trail Nazi IMHO


This ^^^^ Learn to ride over obstacles instead of removing them.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Please people, it's getting annoying here. Learn how to read the tread all the way before posting.

I said many times I don't have problem getting over those logs... But you guys keep on ignoring it.

The trees I removed were not helping the trails here. One was in the way and forced people to walk right on the edge of the cliff in a mud hole, so this was causing erosion pretty fast. The other tree was for convenience for everyone. And was not helping for trail maintenance either.

I hope everyone can get over now ?


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## KgB (Jan 13, 2004)




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## David C (May 25, 2011)

KgB said:


> Haha, so you,re sanitizing an illegal trail that you are poaching without the authority to do either one. Oh the irony, this thread will go viral it's hilarious. It's a train wreck there is no walking away at this point. Sorry


No. I'm simply doing trail maintenance as a trail user. Not as a MTBer. As a trail user. I commute there on a bike, but I walk the bike once I'm on the trails.

Now the discussion of riding a bike on those trails is a personal choice and I assume the risks on my own.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

KgB said:


>


Too late. Nice try though. Quoted for true


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## javelina1 (Mar 10, 2005)

Scott O said:


> The only thing I hate more than Trail Nazis are Illinois Trail Nazis.


Loved that line with Jake and Elwood. 

Also liked, "You can't outrun a Motorola!...." :thumbsup:


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

David C said:


> The baton is for self defense and to be used in very last extreme resort.


David, wait, time out?!?? You're gonna defend yourself with a baton?!?!?



free myspace layouts

I'd stick with the axe and go on the offensive.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Scott O said:


> David, wait, time out?!?? You're gonna defend yourself with a baton?!?!?
> 
> I'd stick with the axe and go on the offensive.


Well I don't wanna leave even more trash on the trails if you know what I mean 

And the axe is strictly for trail work and zombie apocalypse.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

David C said:


> I commute there on a bike, but I walk the bike once I'm on the trails..


Wait...WHAT?! Now you expect us to believe you aren't poaching trails, you just walk them? Where's my BS meter?


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

David, I can tell you have good intentions and I applaud your dedication. Hopefully this will end on a positive note. BTW, leave the baton home. If you're not trained in it's use, you may be the one getting beat with it. And if the authorities discover it on you, it would not be good for you or the MTB community's image as it only has one intended use. The press would have a field day. I wish you the best of luck.:thumbsup:


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## AndyN (Jan 12, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> Where's my BS meter?


It exploded. Look for small fragments.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Silentfoe said:


> Wait...WHAT?! Now you expect us to believe you aren't poaching trails, you just walk them? Where's my BS meter?


Nope. I try to get you over the fact I'm riding there in a tolerate situation. Geez, you guys get on high whenever you come across small details ?

And to SeaBass, of course I'm trained. And the newspaper really don't give a f*ck about a guy who got a ticket for poaching trails on the Mt Royal.... They have so much more to talk about and I'm not kidding. I understand the risk related to carrying, but since I didn't know the general opinion of the users out there, I preferred to be safe than sorry. After the last trip, I really don't feel like I should be in danger with the users there. May be some, but those would be the one trapping the trails and so far I've never met one. Now it's back into the safe with my other "toys". I was getting good moral support from everyone there, but I couldn't tell before when I was simply riding since I don't usually stop and talk with every single user I encounter.

And Andy just downgrade the thread quality once again... Impressive how good his only 2 posts are so far...


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## steelnwool (Mar 23, 2010)

Mont-Royal has some great single track too. Get more creative where you are looking, its not advertised. Look behind the cemetery and for some tire tracks that peek between a few headstones. Also, by the water fountain towards the top. Oh and if you are going out past the big building at the top, look at the front right corner of it (looking out towards the city). 

There is tonnes of good stuff there that only MTN bikers use and "Les amis de la montange" leave mostly alone. (up at the top off the road by the radio tower there is a steep drop, take it as well more single track)

Beware of places where you see the metal bars bent apart for passage of a person, the staff coats them in black grease so you get it all over your bike and clothes...

Or so i heard... from some guy. Yeah. thats it.


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## steelnwool (Mar 23, 2010)

Oh and poke around by the old ski lift, look for worn path by the chain link fence. Be creative (pass your bike over then go thru the small hole).


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Thanks, yeah, the place is pretty big and I usually always stick around the same trails. I'll start to do some more exploration this season but so far about half you mentioned are already tasted the rubber of my tires.


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## 2ridealot (Jun 15, 2004)

Not trying to jack an older thread but I thought it was a good place to share what total jackassery I encountered on my early morning road ride connector trail today. There were about 4 broken guiness bottles and an empty 6 pk sleeve in the trail and then I rode up on 3 or 4 small pine trees pulled down across the trail. Then near the end of the connector in the middle of a 10 to 15 mph corner was the most blatant attempt to hurt someone that I have personally seen. I tried to move it but it was too heavy and I did not want injure my back. Called 911 and convinced the lady that it was an actual serious situation and to call the city. I laid debris all over the trail to slow/warn people. They took the time to dig up and roll 2 fence posts there and then connect them with a piece of top fence. 

It was more visible from the direction I was traveling but from the other direction it would have put someone down. 

Drunk is one thing...but this is effed up!


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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

The wife and I were out riding the day before yesterday
and someone had put a couple of rows of rocks across
the trail. Yea like that is really going to stop us. What a 
bunch of BS, all we did was laugh and road right through.


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## Hutch3637 (Jul 1, 2011)

^^^ 2ridealot

That is really messed up. The worst I've seen is broken glass bottles after log roll overs and the occasional tree someone has intentionally pushed over on the trail or built some ghetto contraption with logs/sticks.


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## wintersolstice (Feb 26, 2012)

So much is wrong with some people, it's not even funny.

On a paved trail, no less.


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## coopdad (Nov 6, 2010)

Personally I can't stand riding on hiking trails where I am constantly being surprised around every blind corner by a pair of old people. Scares the sh!t out of them, scares the sh!t out of me. I am sure situations like this (and worse) was part of the reason your trail was made bike-free.

I gotta wonder if you, and a local MTB club, could go to the city council and ask about another trail set being built there. That way the hikers can keep their trail and you bikers get yours. You could argue that there will be more and more MTBers in the future (I assume) that will need a place to ride.

And if they say yes, the new trail design would be more MTB-specific than simple dirt paths as the other appears to be now.


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

In San Diego we have the opposite problem. We have trail users that sanitize our trails, removing rocks and natural technical features to make the trails easier. If I were you I would just stack some dirt in front of those logs and make a nice little jump out of them.


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## Hutch3637 (Jul 1, 2011)

sandmangts said:


> In San Diego we have the opposite problem. We have trail users that sanitize our trails, removing rocks and natural technical features to make the trails easier. If I were you I would just stack some dirt in front of those logs and make a nice little jump out of them.


Not sure if referring to my post about logs. With the logs other MTB's try fix them. Add some dirt to hold them together more. We can't make jumps cause the land is owned by the city. Last time they found out there was jumps back there they tried shutting down the trails. A local club has been trying to work with the city to have it under a MTB organization but everything has been hush, hush lately. Then like you said above about the people who come along then remove features are usually people who jog or hike on it and don't ride. We also have that problem here.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

sandmangts said:


> In San Diego we have the opposite problem. We have trail users that sanitize our trails, removing rocks and natural technical features to make the trails easier. If I were you I would just stack some dirt in front of those logs and make a nice little jump out of them.


That's a good idea and I'd be glad to go your way. Only problem is like Hutch said those trails are now officially for hikers only (I'll mention again that they were build originally for MTBers), so I'd rather remove them then trying to make a feature out of them. Of course it all depends on the exact location of the log and the condition of the trail (flat, steep, hardpack or rocky).

I'd say most of the logs are easy to clear, even at the last minute. But when you're riding there at night with minimal light, those can be hazardous. But the real problem is people leaving trash like beer cans and glass bottles.

And to all the users that don't understand the exact situation I have here (since they probably leave 100's of miles away and think we leave in the wilderness with polar bears), I'd like to suggest to just press the red 'X' at the top of the screen if you are not interested by the content of this thread. Thanks


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## GiantMountainTroll (Mar 27, 2012)

JonMX5 said:


> We have stuff like that on our trails too. They're called obstacles and we ride over them because that's what mountain bikes are made for.


x2

OP- Better start practicing your bunny hops.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

GiantMountainTroll said:


> x2
> 
> OP- Better start practicing your bunny hops.


Y'all don't need doing bunny hop when you got 6" squish. Just pump the bike and fly right over the log.

And you guys need to go ride more and stop telling me how to ride


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

There is one certain trail we have locally which is legal for bikers that someone has booby trapped off and on for several years. Often enough that I ride up it prior to riding down if I am the early bird on the trail. It certainly seems that the anti mountain biker sentiment is spreading. Thats why I always try to encourage bikers to be as polite as possible to avoid user conflicts. All it takes is one hiker who has had one bad experience to embellish and spread that story to 10 others. Then again I have run into some pretty stupid hikers and equestrians over the years.


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## bigbadwulff (Jan 18, 2012)

Probably environMentalists!


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## Wasmachineman NL (Jan 31, 2012)

This thread in 6 words, by Adam Jensen: I never asked for this - YouTube


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## 2ridealot (Jun 15, 2004)

Wasmachineman NL said:


> This thread in 6 words, by Adam Jensen: I never asked for this - YouTube


Could we get a word recount?


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

The recount is in and it looks like we're still at 6 words.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

I=1 never=2 asked=3 for=4 this=5 (You=6 Tube =7):skep:


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

youtube is one word


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

If youtube is one word, then why isn't one word oneword?

YouTube is neither one word, nor two words. It is a corporate entity.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Ridnparadise said:


> If youtube is one word, then why isn't one word oneword?
> 
> YouTube is neither one word, nor two words. It is a corporate entity.


YouTube is a trademarked term that describes a corporate entity. Strictly speaking is it a word? It depends on who you ask. I think many people would say that it is however a quick search of Webster's dictionary says no. You mentioned that it is neither one word nor two words so I think your recount should be revised to 5. I'm going to stick with 6 since the term YouTube is only used as a single word when used to describe the file sharing service.

Unlike YouTube, "one word" is proper English. "Word" is the noun and "one" is the adjective.


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## HikerToo (Jan 18, 2008)

Who can read all this, OMG.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

So I guess this makes us gramma nazis.


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## Wasmachineman NL (Jan 31, 2012)

Ridnparadise said:


> So I guess this makes us gramma nazis.


Yup.
Back ontopic?


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## Trail Addict (Nov 20, 2011)

Ridnparadise said:


> So I guess this makes us gramma nazis.


Gramma? It's GRAMMAR!!!! Sieg Heil!


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## brianhirtchu (Apr 23, 2012)

Scott O said:


> The only thing I hate more than Trail Nazis are Illinois Trail Nazis.


i HATE illinois trail nazis as well those dirty scum suckers


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

HikerToo said:


> Who can read all this, OMG.


Someone interested in grammerr?


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Ridnparadise said:


> Someone interested in grammerr?


Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition.


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## Rabies010 (Jan 20, 2011)




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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

My grammar is bad, and I can't spell to save
my life, BFD.


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

Since the OP doesn't actually want dialog on this matter or to listen to advice. I'll just say that was a pretty boring story and I wish it were posted in another forum.


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

One thing I'll agree with the OP on is that he does have a right to carry a weapon. This activity being frowned upon is completely whacked.


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