# From Full Squish to Hard Tail -- A Senior Citizen's View



## AZRickD (Sep 1, 2011)

Having ridden with my group of 50-somethings for the past few years and seeing them excel as they moved up in equipment, I decided to look into getting a new bike for myself to replace (augment, actually) my capable, though somewhat sedate 2011 aluminum Stump Jumper Comp FSR 29er.

I'm 55 years old. Dirt biker. Hang glider pilot. Stocky ex-wrestler. Bad lower back which is treated with neural ablation, ice-ice-ice, inversion table, occasional chiropractor, and a stretchy back brace. Most of my group started using mountain biking to train for dirt bike racing. But somehow most of us now probably ride more pedals than pistons. Strange but true.

My cohorts began with a hodge-podge of many-year-old aluminum Treks, Giants, and Specialized full-suspension bikes. One by one they opened their wallets to full-carbon Epics, Stump Jumpers, Trances, Pivots, and others. We also have a trio of single-speeders who try not to turn down their noses on our equipment fetishes.

I decided to take a slightly different path. Most of the trails my group rides in and around Phoenix are groomed to excess. Yes, there are rocks here and there, but I wondered if a full-suspension bike was a little over-kill. Having hopped on a carbon hardtail a few times, I thought this would be a good addition to my stable. I bought a 2015 Specialized Stump Jumper Expert World Cup Carbon 29er with 1x11 SRAM X01, carbon wheels and a carbon bar. I set the stem to be shorter and up-angled for a much more relaxed riding position. My back demands it. The 2011 FSR would be kept and used for the really rocky crap.

Specialized Bicycle Components

As any search of MTBR will show, there are many people asking about the plusses and minuses of going from full-suspension to hard tail.

The key differences between my old Chump Dumper are lighter weight (10-ish pounds), components (precise shifting), agility (point & shoot). And less stuff to deal with, over all.

Yeah, and suspension: All of a sudden I *really* appreciate my FSR over rocks. I decided that my first ride on my carbon hard tail would be a place I really didn't see it shining. The embedded rocks of Deem Hill in north Phoenix. And I was correct. Those rocks shook my spine. Dreadful. Not only is the tail hard, but the fork travel on the 2015 hard tail is about a third less (90mm for my model).

I had no choice but to buy a Thud Buster LT seat post, despite its known issues. It saved the day. Its 3-inches of travel would be all the difference I would need. That, and standing a lot more than I did on the Stumpy FSR. I have the Thud Buster preload set pretty high so seat bob isn't much of an issue. The main problem of the Thud Buster is that even with my seat moved all the way forward, my knee-to-pedal dimension is at least an inch behind if I am pedaling with my sit bones full rearward. For me to center the seat rails and put the seat where it should be, I'd need the Thud Buster post to be bent (or heli-arched) about 60mm forward. And then the post would probably break.

I called the Thud Buster shop and found the sales rep to be rather unsympathetic. I asked if they had a foward-bending seat post or a mounting mechanism that didn't have the rider so far rearward. He said it was a known issue and the company had no plans to address it.

Handling: Probably the biggest difference between my old and new bikes. Wonderful on all but the roughest stuff. I never felt particularly comfortable on the 2011 Stumpy. It pushed in turns no matter which of the many tire combos I tried. I just had to slow down a bit. Not so with 2015 Stumpy Carbon. Carvey and predictable with either the original Specialized Control on the rear (sidewall cut on the first rock ride), and Specialized S-Works in front (both replaced with...) Bontrager X2 & X4. Some of my crew would pull away from me on some shallow-ish downhills. Now I am in the front of the pack, and I'm not even trying hard.

However, add some rocks and I'm feeling a little squeamish. Less squeamish ride-to-ride, as I learn to understand and trust the behavior of the hard tail, (and the reduced suspension on front as well).

Agility: I am turning around and riding down tight switch backs that I would have to dismount on the 2011 FSR. Must be that shortened rear end, which might be as much as two-inches shorter. Also, I am able to pick a line on the 2015 hard tail that I would usually miss on the FSR. Result: cleaner line on the hard tail (which I need), vs bashing over an embedded rock (which the FSR suspension can *mostly* but not entirely absorb). The 2015 hard tail allows me to do something I can't do well on the 2011 FSR -- I can hop over small rocks.

When I am "speeding" along a trail on the hard tail, I feel like I am a more active, thinking participant in the system. The 2011 FSR sort of lulled me into complacency. The 2015 Stumpy Hard Tail is *so* much fun in in this twisty realm. That alone is worth the price of admission. By the way, I had previously found that the handling of the Epic to be too twitchy for me. I'll have to try an Epic again to see how it feels.

Climbing: The stock SRAM X-01 1x11 comes with a single 32T front and a rear cassette that features a 42T ring. The result is a ratio that is not nearly as low as my 2011 FSR's 2x10. To get that low, I have to go to a 26T front chain ring. And that was my intention, but I was told that the available 26T sprocket doesn't have the correct offset. So I am currently making due with at 28T sprocket. This, combined with apparently more efficient pedaling makes the 2015 hard tail better than the 2011 up to and until I get to the steepest climbs. Then my 55 year-old legs begin to burn. There are two such climbs that I haven't had the opportunity to test. On the 2011 FSR I'm right on the edge of mental and physical collapse as I clear the climb. It would be interesting to see how the 28T hard tail does, but I'd rather have the 26T. I hope the 26T sprocket is ready by mid-May, as my Specialize dealer anticipates. I'm willing to give up a lot of top-end for the privilege.

More Climbing: Despite whatever inherent climbing efficiency a hard tail has, throw in some bumps and the rear end tends to lose grip. Maybe a couple-three inches a tread per bounce. Make the rocks big enough and they can really reek havoc on momentum as the hard tail tires snag more while the FSR rolls over them. That being said, even with the bumps, I feel the hard tail delivering more torque to the tire (unless it slips).


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## AZRickD (Sep 1, 2011)

My LBS was able to acquire and install a 26T Wolfs Tooth chain ring. Now it has roughly the same ratio as my 2011 Stumpy FSR. I also had them epoxy the left bottom bracket cup as it was finger-loose upon examination (creaking noise).

I am learning the bike more and more. Fun times.


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## Kofaram (Oct 20, 2014)

Thanks! I'm the same age as you and probably ride the same trails. Good info


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Your dealer may have some SL Fatties you may want to demo for some more compliance and grip. 4-5 less psi front and rear. Better washout control from the sidewall support.


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## AZRickD (Sep 1, 2011)

I don't have more than a few milimeters of clearance for width on the rear with the 3.3 Bontrager tire.


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## AZRickD (Sep 1, 2011)

I'm a liitle squeamish to go much below 28 in the rear. I have tried 25 and like it but I am wondering about protecting the rear carbon wheels from impacts.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

AZRickD said:


> Agility: I am turning around and riding down tight switch backs that I would have to dismount on the 2011 FSR. Must be that shortened rear end, which might be as much as two-inches shorter.


FYI: Your 2011 Stumpjumper FSR 29 Comp has 449mm chainstays, and your new Stumpjumper Expert Carbon World Cup has 430mm chainstays. That is a difference of 19mm (3/4")


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Nice story, thank you :0)

My take on hardtail vs full-sus is that it's like a sports car vs family saloon/sedan. The full-sus lets me go faster over rough ground but it's the hardtail that you love. I like my full-sus, I don't love it.


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## AZRickD (Sep 1, 2011)

Mr Pig said:


> ...family saloon/sedan.


"Family Saloon." Like Applebee's? 

Another ride today. I've decided I have to lead my group on the downhills. They be holdin' me up, lately.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

AZRickD said:


> "Family Saloon." Like Applebee's?


That's what they're called here in the UK, a saloon car typically describes a large car with a separate boot...which is what you can a trunk! Like a BMW 5 series.


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## AZRickD (Sep 1, 2011)

Don't confuse us 'Mericans.


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## AZRickD (Sep 1, 2011)

jeffj said:


> ...FYI: That is a difference of 19mm (3/4")


Oops, I had the correct figure (2-inches) but the wrong dimension.

Your 3/4-inch figure is correct for the chain stay. My error was in forgetting what geometry I was measuring way back when.

I forgot that I was measuring axle-to-axle distance, which is 42.5-inches for the 2015 Stumpy Hardtail and 44.5-inches for the 2011 Stumpy FSR.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Great post AZRickD! I'm also a hang glider pilot—well, not currently, but flew for many years (H3-rated). Weren't you a little close to those clouds in that pic? LOL I flew in the Appalachians back east (VA/MD/PA/WV). Great sport—and I hope to get back into it when the kids are older.

My first mountain bike (which I still ride) is a FS (Gary Fisher Hifi Pro). When I bought that bike, I tried both at the local shop, and the FS was a no-brainer. I was like "Why would I want to bash the hell out of myself on a hardtail when I can ride this?"

As you said, I can ride over almost anything on the FS bike. And I've recently been wondering about what a hardtail would be like now that I'm an experienced rider? Your post answered a lot of questions.

I'm in Oregon, and so far, all the trails I've ridden here are ridiculously smooth compared with the endless babyheads of the Appalachians. So I'm thinking a hardtail would be fine out here.

Scott


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## AZRickD (Sep 1, 2011)

I was actually aero-towed to about 6,500 feet which was 1,000 feet above the clouds. That photo was taken after I had descended about 1,500 feet or so. It's now the cover photo of the tug company's pamphlet.

Some of my fully suspended 50-something gang were dubious, but after a while (and the Thud Buster seat post), they began to me enjoy the bike more and more. They expected that I would bring out my FSR from time to time. But I didn't. The reason I ride the HT over the FS is analogous to why I fly a hang glider and not a sail plane.

So now, a few months later, two of my buddies have kept their FS bikes but have added less suspended bikes to their garage (one a HT, the other a Trek Rigid 27.5-plus). They ride them on appropriate terrain and bring out the FS in the rocky stuff.

But enough about them. I have become so active on the hard tail that I wish I could swap out my back-saving Thud Buster for a dropper post. Better yet -- the fabled "Thud-Dropper." If only it wasn't a parody site. I might try putting on my stock post and see if my riding technique will protect me enough.

I came up with a favorite tire combination. Bontrager VR2 2.35 in the front and VR 2 (or 3) 2.3 in the back. Unfortunately, there is not enough clearance in the back for the 2.3 (it rubs during flexing in turns). So I had to back off to a 2.2. I don't like it as much, but it is the best I can stuff in there.


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## AZRickD (Sep 1, 2011)

I found the article on the "Thud Dropster."

Bad Idea Racing: It's an Evolution Baby


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## t0pcat (May 7, 2012)

You could always try a sprung brooks saddle I put 1 on my Fargo to replace a thudbustr which was better but it squeeked!


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## AZRickD (Sep 1, 2011)

My TBuster started to squeak too. I removed the dampers and put some silicone lube between. It's been fine for three months.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

You're an awesome and insightful poster. But you've chosen a very difficult path as you go back to a hardtail as we age. We need the cush, traction and confidence.

Furthermore, most high level hardtails are made to race and go fast now so they have steep geometry. We need relaxed geometry that helps us descend down fun terrain.

Help is coming. New hardtails (and short travel fs bikes) will have slack head angles, steep seat angles for good pedaling and dropper posts for safe shredding.

And the new magic is Plus tires. These are 3.0 tires that have all the cush but not the slowness of fat tires. wide 50mm rims are making it possible. Pressures are between 12 and 18 psi.

Here is just one example coming out. It is the Orbea Loki 27.5+ and it will retail between $1300 and $3k.


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## AndrewDrummond (Dec 10, 2007)

USE XCR suspension seatposts are inline so you wouldn't have the rearward offset to content with. 

I used one for years and they are good, you just have to make sure your saddle/weight is somewhat centrally placed in order for the telescopic action to work best. 

Combined with a compliant frame they are almost as good as a short travel FS.

Another option is a titantium seatpost as some have a fair amount of give in them, although not as much as the USE post.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Riding a hardtail definitely requires different technique than full suspension, namely hovering over the seat in the rough stuff and letting your legs and arms be the suspension. I enjoy the technique and the art of picking a line over the lots of suspension so I can just blast over everything as fast as possible bikes. And if you watch the Pros, they do a good bit of hovering, even on full suspension bikes. My local trails (Georgia) are more XC type and the trend for new trails seems to be well groomed so I don't feel like I need a lot of squish. And both of my hardtail are steel, so that takes the edge off as well.


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## N10S (Sep 27, 2004)

I started riding mtbs in 84 when rigid was the only choice. I was an early adopter of suspension in the early 90s with the various cannondale full suspension and three other short travel FS bikes like amp 
Research bikes, specialized FSR, and a number of others like Titus racer X's. Every time I tried longer travel bikes I hated then and over the years returned to rigid bikes again. For me personally a rigid bike puts me into direct contact with the trail and demands precise finesse riding, not just blasting through rough sections letting the suspension correct a bad line. As I get older the rigid fork set up really beats my arms am neck through the rough sections though, and I can definitely see a quality suspension fork in my future.


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## N10S (Sep 27, 2004)

Del


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

N10S said:


> As I get older the rigid fork set up really beats my arms am neck through the rough sections though, and I can definitely see a quality suspension fork in my future.


Suspension forks have changed a lot since the early days, mainly in the sophistication of the damping. It's possible to get a good fork to absorb nasty hits while still feeling firm at speed and giving you great feedback from the ground. They've gotten stiffer as well. Development has let the tubes get wider without upping the weight too much, if at all.

I agree about the responsiveness of a rigid bike but off road I just couldn't live with one any more. In fact I find a hard-tail tough going on some of the rougher trails I ride.


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## N10S (Sep 27, 2004)

Agree on the newer forks with platform valving. I had a 2013 Reba on my Jamis Dragon and that was a great riding fork and the same with a Manitou Tower I had on my Bandersnatch. 

The biggest complaint I have about suspension forks is that they add a lot of weight when compared to a good steel fork like a Waltworks, or even more so a lighter carbon fork like the niner carbon or the firestarter on my Fargo. 

The geometry of the new Fargo is built around a 100mm suspension fork though, so it's a legitimate candidate for a new suspension fork if I decide to go that route. I am currently re building it with a jones loop bar which will get me a little more upright and the ti bars will help provide more compliance too. As previously noted a large volume big fat cushy front tire can really take the sting off too so that might be an option as well.

Riding locale is a big factor too. When I lived in New Mexico I really appreciated my titus racer x fs, and the rigid bike I started out with beat me to death. In Missouri where I live and ride most of the time, the trails can get rocky, rough and technical but on the whole the singletrack is pretty smooth and fast, and in those conditions a rigid or hardtail works great.


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## fishboy316 (Jan 10, 2014)

I am 58 and broke my back 1.5 years ago on my C-dale lefty HT. Thought about going squishy, but after riding a friends kona decided I love the HT too much! It is fast and quick and keeps you on your toes. It is the sports car thing for sure. The climbing ability is amazing and it's PAID FOR!I don't think the squish is worth what you give up. I will run it until I can't ride the HT any more!
Bill


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## older'nslower (Feb 28, 2009)

*Consider the AM bike*

My current whip is a long travel AM 29er and I've concluded that this type of bike is quite possibly the perfect bike for us guys past the 50 yr mark for the following reasons:

- You're not expected to be the first to the top of a hill
- Pushing on really steep climbs is OK
- Rides like a Barcalounger even on long rocky downhills
- Suspension can be locked out to remind you why you're riding a FS bike in the first place
- Easier on those herniated discs
- Platform pedals mean you wear the same shoes on and off the bike
- You can look cool on one in a wide variety of clothing - no need to always wear the jersey and lycra

Having said that, I have not ruled out trying out a 29er or 27 plus hardtail as a second mtn bike for smoother trails at some point. I can always use more bikes and new hardware. The only obstacle is lack of money.


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## N10S (Sep 27, 2004)

Thats funny that people are so different in what they like or dislike. At 57 its the other end of the spectrum in riding that I enjoy. I have owned a number of short travel FS bikes over the years but really love the ride and handling of a nice rigid 29er.










Had a great morning ride this morning, Fall is an awesome time of the year for riding.


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Perhaps we could post pictures of the trials we ride so we can get an idea of what we use our bikes on. It seems to me that there are those who ride on genuine rocky terrain need FS bikes, others a hard tail, those like myself who cannot justify any suspension at all for the lack of serious bumps to suffer any kind of pain on. N10S has a picture that I can relate to as this is what I ride on and Rigid is King. But, I would refrain from using my rigid over severe rocky ground. It's just what's available to ride on where I live, rather than defining what MTB is. Just a thought.

Eric


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## N10S (Sep 27, 2004)

I think riding conditions definitely have an influence on what kind of bike fits the task. In Missouri we don't have the major rocky drops you find out west. That pic I took shows some smooth trail sections and that trail actually has a mix of rocky and rooted trail. I had to air down my tires mid way as my fillings were getting jarred loose.

I do understand the differences in riding environments though and remember trying to ride my rigid 91 Yo Eddy on a trail in New Mexico when I moved there for a couple of years. I immediately realized I'd had brought a knife to a gun fight and it was the wrong bike for this environment. My FS racer x was great in those conditions and was still reasonably light and agile.


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## older'nslower (Feb 28, 2009)

*A nice rocky trail*















Torry Ridge trail in the George Washington NF. I prefer long travel for this one. The downhills are a blast.


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## rushman3 (Jan 24, 2009)

OP...I went with a Specialized Fuse 27.5+ Comp HT and love it. Sold my 2011 STJ FSR 29er and don't miss the FS. The 3.0 tires at 14-15 pounds feels like 1-2" of travel.

I put on a wide carbon bar and went tubeless.

Yes, I hover the saddle on the rough rocky areas, but I sit allot while riding.

Its worth a demo, they are lots of new models coming out (ie: Norco Torrent with a 130 fork might be just right for your area).


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Eric Malcolm said:


> Perhaps we could post pictures of the trials we ride so we can get an idea of what we use our bikes on....


Sometimes it's rocky



Sometimes it's all tussocks and bog



Sometimes it's nice singletrack



Sometimes rocky foreshore



Sometimes trying not to fall 30' off the deer track



Sometimes following overgrown ancient routes in the Highlands (used by my ancestors for cattle trading - as in "I'll trade you your life for your cow")



And sometimes coming down icy rock chutes slightly sideways



but still prefer rigid hardtails. I just don't like the dive in a telescopic fork, and I prefer to keep my bikes as simple as possible.


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## AZRickD (Sep 1, 2011)

The 2016 Update: I sold my 2011 Stumpy FSR last fall. I continue to pedal the carbon hardtail, even on our rockiest rides. My group has begun to do another swap out of bikes. Two new Treks for them so far this month.

No issues with my bike as well. I did notice some cracking underneath the steering stem that the Spesh dealer says is just the paint cracking. I have marked it with magic marker and it hasn't grown in six months or so.

My next upgrade when parts wear out might be the Praxis screw-in bottom bracket as well as a wider ratio cassette that I've seen. Instead of 42/11 it goes from 44/9. This would give me another lower gear for climbing when needed as well as counter-act some of the 26T front sprocket's penchant for spinning up on slight downhills.

I have considered replacing the ThudBuster long-travel with their short travel model as it would move the seat up about an inch. With a softer elastomer it might have the same (or nearly) cush and movement.

Bontrager tires are still on it. XR3 Team front and rear this time. 2.2 in the back and 2.3 in the front (they run narrower, btw). I tried XR4s in the front and felt skatey on hard pack dusted with decomposed gravel.

I took it into the LBS to have them do a tune up. They said everything was up to spec. Nothing was out of whack and the Revol Control carbon wheels were still true. They greased some things and made no other adjustments. My 2011 SJ FSR would have required much more wrenching.

As for my future, I'm keeping this bike. I might buy an aluminum FS bike (maybe a Pivot) in a year or two.


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## older'nslower (Feb 28, 2009)

I have a Praxis BB and it's fine, except that they sent me the one with the short plastic sleeve (for road bikes) and I didn't discover it until a couple of months after I had installed it. It was obviously packaged incorrectly at the factory since the box had all the correct markings on it. I called Praxis, but they said they did not have any of the correct length sleeves that they could send me and that it didn't matter anyway since the sleeve doesn't affect function. (Of course if water runs down into the seat tube, it will affect function since the bearings would be subject to rust from the inside.) I ended up using an old Shimano sleeve. Not a perfect fit, but close enough. Not the best customer svc from Praxis IMO.

Carbon hardtails look sweet, but I still remember the days of riding a hardtail and lusting for FS. Maybe a thudbuster is the answer if I decide to add a hardtail to the stable.


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## ajjrsons (Jul 15, 2015)

I enjoy separate bikes for certain trails. My SC Highball cc doubles as my commuter and I love it. My AM bikes are a blast too. I rode the hartail on some rough frozen ground this winter and it really made me wish for AM bike.


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## AZRickD (Sep 1, 2011)

Update: Two years later, still on the Stumpy Hardtail. Upgraded to the eThirteen 9-46 cassette. 

Considering getting a mid-travel bike (Pivot Mach429 Trail, or Intense-like) later in the year if finances agree. Keeping the hardtail, of course.


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

Thanks for the stories Rick. I'm another old former HG pilot. H5 long ago, so I guess I'm never really "former" - but the mtb bug bit hard after retirement and I've ridden a lot more than I've flown over the last few years. I've had some good fun on hardtails, but for these old bones a short travel FS 29er seems to work best.


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