# another Mt biker dies on Porcupine Rim



## SweatyYeti (Jun 12, 2004)

Sad story, another Mt biker dies on Porcupine Rim. Why do people keep making the same mistake of bringing too little water? I was just there, it's hot but I carry two Camelback 100 oz bladders to ride in these conditions.

http://www.nbc11news.com/news_detail.cfm?NewsID=2122&DO=News


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## Jessep (Dec 1, 2004)

Thats awful, I wish people would read the warnings a little bit better about the desert being hot..


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## Soupboy (Jan 13, 2004)

*Terrible*

As a parent I can't begin to imagine the guilt and remorse the mother surely feels. Any local knowledge on the apparent fitness level or experience of these riders?

It's not like Porc is that extreme per se relative to other hot climes. Regardless, desert heat is nothing to be effing with. I was in Maah Dah Hey two years ago in September and it was 105d during our day rides - the ubiquitous "dry heat". I carried two 100oz bladders - one filled with sports drink and the other water. Finished both each ride.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

*Type 'A' Parents - LISTEN!*

This is a terrible tragedy. My condolences to the family, which has an impossible burden to bear.

The last person to die on Porcupine from dehydration was also a teenager on a family outing. He got lost, but same result.

Apparently the girl who died the other day drank a 70oz Camelbak and it wasn't enough. 
Moab in the summer is not the Boulder bike path, folks. If you are working hard, 70oz is 70 minutes, max. An ounce a minute in that environment won't even keep you hydrated.

I go to Moab a lot (I have a house there), and I see this over and over again. I see it on 14's in Colorado, too. The parents are pushing their kids, and not recognizing the facts.

Type 'A' parents, LISTEN UP:

Children are much more at risk for dehydration than adults. Their metabolism is much higher, and THEY NEED MORE WATER than you do. Furthermore, most kids don't have the endurance of adults. They need shorter rides/hikes, and they need to stop and rest more often. They are not wimps. They are CHILDREN. Even the teenagers. This is why, for example, the Leadville Trail 100 won't accept an entry from anyone under 21. This is why pro cycling has an under 23 category.

I was on Slickrock last Fall, and I saw a father just ripping a kid about 10-11 years old for not keeping up with the group. The kid's face was beet red, he was crying, and wobbling around on the bike. He stopped right next to me, and I noticed he didn't have any water at all. None. I handed him my water bottle and he started drinking it. The father came back
and started yelling at the kid again. I told the dad the his son was in serious trouble and needed to start drinking immediately. As I said that, the kid walked over next to a tree and puked (a major dehydration warning sign), and then collapsed in a pile. At that point the father got the message. Jeez.

Moab will kill you. It will kill kids faster.


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## catch22 (Apr 30, 2004)

Sad story, you've got to wonder what they were doing out there with that little water at the hottest time of the day. Looks like it got up to 101 yesterday in Moab, not exactly temps to be playing around with. I've done a lot of riding in Moab during the summer and have always told others it's doable but just to start at the crack of dawn and bring tons of water. Not sure if they just hit the trails without getting advice from anyone or what but everytime I'm there whether asking for advice or not I've been told by countless people in the shops and at teh trailheads to take at least twice as much water as I think I'll need on a ride. That's really a tough spot to put a kid in because even if they need help (asking other riders for water) they'll almost never do it to save themselves the embarrassment. I guess all you can really hope for is that others will learn from this.


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## Evel Knievel (Mar 28, 2004)

Seems that many lessons from the past are being lost on this generation of parents. 

In outdoor activities one should . 

1 ) know the location and any special precautions it may require. 
2) be prepared for any thing 
3) be courteous 
4) Leave no trace


These four have been spit on repeatedly. Why can't these lessons be taught or learned these days ?


No one should die from being ill prepared. A Darwin award nomination for the Mother.


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*Add one more to the list...*



honkinunit said:


> This is a terrible tragedy. My condolences to the family, which has an impossible burden to bear.
> 
> The last person to die on Porcupine from dehydration was also a teenager on a family outing. He got lost, but same result.
> 
> ...


Kids also lack experience. They don't know specifically what the danger signs are for outdoor emergencies (heat and cold related, dehydration, etc.) because the kids haven't ever pushed themselves to those types of limits. It's up the parents to teach their kids what those signs are and how to recognize them.

I'm very cognizant of the weather when my daughter and I go camping because she's not used to sleeping in the cold. Since I'm a Type A parent and expect her to be tough, push herself, etc. I worry constantly about her trying to "tough it out" and not heeding her body's warning signs.

This girls death is tragic. It's devistating for her family. It's more tragic because it could have been avoided.

Ken


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## J.D. (Jan 14, 2004)

*darwin*



Evel Knievel said:


> A Darwin award nomination for the Mother.


Another reason to call it *dork*upine rim. Some of these people go out into the wilds and think it's gizneyland and find out in a harsh and real way that it's not. I say ban "reality" television and the idiots that watch it because they don't have enough of a life or common sense for a grip on real "reality". Again, it's too bad a kid had to pay the price for their lack of a wise parent.


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## catch22 (Apr 30, 2004)

*a more detailed article...*

Found this on the Salt Lake Tribs webpage: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2816240?rss

I don't really understand the part where it mentions them getting up early like they were supposed to when the other article said the problems weren't til 4 or so. 6-7+ hours for Porcupine is a long time, seems like they must have started a bit after 'morning' unless they spent a few hours hanging out in the heat at the viewpoint. Given that they had put in several days of riding I'm wondering if she hadn't started the ride dehydrated already, not a good thing on that trail on a 100+ degree day.


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

*Blessings*

So sad about the young girl nature can be so unforgiving. She's going to a much better place we will all get to. Let's make the most of our short time here to impove this world toward perfect care for the children yet to arrive.

I seriously scared myself once near Moab. I did a solo first time ride Back-behind-the rocks, doing the upper maze of trails closer to the rocks. After a shuttle to the far trailhead off the highway near the site of the 24 race course I set off with an 80 ounce water pack and a full large bottle on my bike. It warmed up to well over 95 and after a few hours guessing my way, "dead reckoning" in direction away from the La Sals, finally following a lone motorcycle track on the mesa part, I was getting scared I was lost and worried about water if I had to double back. Finally the trail followed a long wash down and connected with the main road and I was back on the map and knew where I was, and it wasn't very far to the private canyon to Kane Creek Road.

I got a 100oz HAWG soon afterwards (which can carry two 100 oz bags).

- ray


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

Doesn't sound like the parents were negligient. Just an unfortunate harsh reminder of why there should be respect for nature and the elements.


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

This is a really unfortunate situation and actually it can happen even to the prepared (_EDIT after reading the latest article_: which is apparently the case). You get out there 10 miles and things can go wrong fast.

We had a similiar situation in Needles National park a few years ago on the road to the confluence overlook. We had a woman in our group get heat stroke and depite our sharing of water and food, it took a careful and tedious effort to get her back to the camp.

Personally,I think testing the desert in 100 degree temps is a challenge to anyone and requires fitness and conditioning as well as plenty of water.


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## datako (Aug 27, 2004)

*Simple rule*

Take 2 full bottles of whatever size you like.

When the first bottle is empty, turn back (unless your destination is closer and it definitely has water). No exceptions.

This rule has saved my bacon in the Australian outback more than once.


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## HarryCallahan (Nov 2, 2004)

*That's a great rule!*



datako said:


> Take 2 full bottles of whatever size you like.
> 
> When the first bottle is empty, turn back (unless your destination is closer and it definitely has water). No exceptions.
> 
> This rule has saved my bacon in the Australian outback more than once.


That makes a lot of sense. If you want to go backpacking in the Grand Canyon, you have to walk through this exhibit with photos of various folks that have died there, with pertinent facts and figures. One thing that stuck in my head was how many folks they had found dead that still had water. The water in your canteen doesn't help you if you don't drink it.


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## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

Another reminder that "news" isn't always accurate or complete. I feel badly for that family in any case, that has got to be so rough for them. I think waiting for the autopsy for further comments about what might or might not have happened might be in order. 

Mountain biking is to me always about being prepared for a variety of situations, overkill in terms of supplies, tools and clothing out in the desert or in the mountains is a good thing, you aren't in control of the environement.


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## Fast Eddy (Dec 30, 2003)

*That rule could get you in big trouble*

if you start out downhill in the morning on a hot day.


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

HarryCallahan said:


> That makes a lot of sense. If you want to go backpacking in the Grand Canyon, you have to walk through this exhibit with photos of various folks that have died there, with pertinent facts and figures. One thing that stuck in my head was how many folks they had found dead that still had water. The water in your canteen doesn't help you if you don't drink it.


 Well there is also _hyponatremia,_ or or low blood sodium. One can drink water all day but if the body is weak in electrolytes, it will still shut down. This might have been a big factor in this accident given the family was on their third day and might not have been replenshing electrolytes properly either.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

When we were there last year it looked like they had taken down some of those signs compared to when we were there in 02.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Article about unprepaired hikers on the North Shore (yes, people hike on the North Shore too!).

B.C. rescuers swamped with calls to find the foolhardy


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## scorcher seb (Jan 12, 2004)

Help me put this in perspective please.

How many people have died out there mountain biking?

I remember the famous case of those two guys who took a wrong turn, and one ended up putting the other out of his misery and being found guilty of murder. And then there are the famous cases on The Portal.

But how many people die out there from dehydration, or by getting lost? I imagine that there are lots of hospitalizations etc, but not many deaths, but have never found any stats to shed any light on it.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Grand County Search & Rescue stats page:
http://www.gcsar.org/statistics/statistics.htm

They don't list the results though.


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## catch22 (Apr 30, 2004)

CraigH said:


> Article about unprepaired hikers on the North Shore (yes, people hike on the North Shore too!).
> 
> B.C. rescuers swamped with calls to find the foolhardy


I don't know if it's just plain ignorance or just a feeling that we are just better and stronger than nature that comes with modern society. You can definitely see what that article is saying though. It blows my mind that every time I ride Porcupine how many more family outings I see out there like it's no big deal, just a sightseeing tour for the family on a bunch of shiney new Huffy's or whatever. It's not the hardest trail by any means but it certainly isn't a walk in the park for anyone, it's got to be hell on an inexperienced rider. Everytime I see an out of shape, Wrangler clad group on a bunch of Wal-Mart clunkers out there I get worried both for their and my own safety. Seems like there is a major lack of respect for the dangers out there and it appears to be getting worse every year. Not sure if they just need to start leaving the bodies out there to give people a little reality check or what.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

I noticed the quality of bikes & unprepaired people when we rode Amasa Back this year.


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

I never go anywhere without at least one bidon full of a hammergel and water mix.

Usually I carry a camelback full of water as well if i'm riding longer trails.

In Oz, the temps often hit 40C in the summer, and if you are out in the bush and run out of water ............................


R.


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## eatdrinkride (Jun 15, 2005)

I live in the metro Phoenix area. About 3 or 4 weeks ago I went for a ride with my uncle for the first time. He is an active guy, about 35 years old (novice MTB'r). Anyhow, it's one of the first hot days of the year. It's 94 degrees at 10am. he shows up at my house without a shirt on, no camelbak, just a 2 BOTTLES of water. I have several packs and I offered one to him but he refused, saying, "I don't like things on my back when riding". I offer a shirt, he has one wrapped up in his fanny pack...ok lets go.

Long story short, within 1hr we had turned back towards my house from the hot desert trails of the Hawes Loop area. We stopped about 1 mile from hittin the road so he could throw up, he had chills all down his arms. Heat exhaustion! We made it back safely but he was sick all day and missed work the next.

Oh ya, forgot to mention. He drank both his bottles of water PLUS half of my 3 litre pack!!! I was fine because this type of riding I am used to but I respect the heat every time I go out.

Listen people to what everyone is saying! It's really that important


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## Dan'ger (Aug 26, 2004)

Last summer, my 13 yr old son and I went hiking in Arches. One particular day, we filled our packs - each with 2-100oz bladders, a couple bottles of gatorade and some foodstuffs - and set off on a 9 mile loop to see the delicate arch and continue onwards. 

The day got increasingly hotter with temps reaching 110d, although not uncomfortable because of the "dry" factor. There were several times that he complained of being hot, needing to stop, etc. but being around noon and in the open, there was no shade to be found, and no breeze, so, no good place to stop. I made sure he was OK with going on and we went on. 15 min later, we found a good shady spot and stopped for a bit. 

The important thing (in my mind) was that I did not panic or get short with him. This was our vacation - him and me - our bonding experience and I was determined to be supportive and to have a good time.

We reapplied our sunscreen and moved on as soon as he felt that he had rested sufficiently. He did end up running out of water before I did and I shared what little I had left all the way back to the staging area. Both of us were hungry, thirsty and weak, enough so that we had to hang out and eat and drink more before I felt able to drive to the camp site.

With some of the out and back hikes from the loop, my GPS read 14 miles at the end of the hike - 5 miles more than we had intended to go.

In any case, it took 2 days before either one of us could fathom the idea of hiking more.


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## george_da_trog (Jul 1, 2003)

This is kind of spooky.

Dennis, Ogre, just left the Stockton area with his wife and kids headed for Moab and other parts.

This could easily be them.

I hope not.

edit......

Oh My God....

I just read the second report and this could EASILY be them.


george


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## Dan'ger (Aug 26, 2004)

george_da_trog said:


> This is kind of spooky.
> 
> Dennis, Ogre, just left the Stockton area with his wife and kids headed for Moab and other parts.
> 
> ...


Not a religious man, but God, I hope not.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

*Judgement*

It's amazing to me how many people are willing to pass judgement on people based on some little blurb in the news.

I watched my daughter die on Monday.

Clearly there was a tragic series of poor decisions on my part and I will have that on my concience for the rest of my life.


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## scorcher seb (Jan 12, 2004)

CraigH said:


> Grand County Search & Rescue stats page:
> http://www.gcsar.org/statistics/statistics.htm
> 
> They don't list the results though.


Yeah - I've seen those before. Probably one reason why I imagine such incidents must be very rare.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

If you read through throught their newsletter archives, they have a one or two paragraph summary of all the incidents they attend.

There are quite a few fatalities listed. Search for the word "recovery".

http://www.gcsar.org/silt.htm


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## Dan'ger (Aug 26, 2004)

0gre said:


> It's amazing to me how many people are willing to pass judgement on people based on some little blurb in the news.
> 
> I watched my daughter die on Monday.
> 
> Clearly there was a tragic series of poor decisions on my part and I will have that on my concience for the rest of my life.


I'm shocked and I don't know what to say except I'm sorry, so sorry. Let me know if there's anything I can do...


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Good news paper article here on dehydration:

Dehydration is a deadly problem with a simple solution: Guzzle


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

I don't know what to say, other that I'm very sorry to hear about your loss.

You have my condolences.


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## Zignzag (Jan 23, 2004)

*Oh my god.*

I am so sorry. Be strong.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

0gre said:


> It's amazing to me how many people are willing to pass judgement on people based on some little blurb in the news.
> 
> I watched my daughter die on Monday.
> 
> Clearly there was a tragic series of poor decisions on my part and I will have that on my concience for the rest of my life.


Pay no attention to what they say. They were just wasting time spouting off on the internet.

It hurt to read about your loss. I have two daughters of my own and the thought of losing either one is sickening.

My condolences.

Nat


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

> "Sounds to me like they did everything right - woke up that morning, had breakfast, then hit the trail," Lammert said (Sheriff's Deputy to the Moab area).


This quote is taken from the Salt Lake Tribune. Please don't be too hard on yourself. My son went on a 20 mile mtb ride on Monday in that same heat (we live in Fruita), he's 12, he is fine. I say that to let you know that there is no way to know for sure what the results will be.

Please, take care of yourself. I have two kids and losing a child would be worse than dying.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

There is nothing I can think of to say except you have my deepest condolences. Having a child of my own, I can only begin to imagine the pain you and your wife are experiencing.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Oh man!*



0gre said:


> It's amazing to me how many people are willing to pass judgement on people based on some little blurb in the news.
> 
> I watched my daughter die on Monday.
> 
> Clearly there was a tragic series of poor decisions on my part and I will have that on my concience for the rest of my life.


Oh, Ogre and Char... My sincere condolences.

I am so sorry to hear about your daughter. I camped with you and your kids a couple of times, and you and your family were always there for a good time.


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## Mary Ann (Jan 13, 2004)

Words seem so inadequate right now. My condolences for your loss. I can't begin to imagine how terrible this is for you and your family.

Peace and prayers,
Mary Ann


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## fred-da-trog (Oct 28, 2003)

Dennis and Char, I just heard. I am so sorry. Kelly's and my hearts are breaking for you and our prayers are with you as well. If there's anything I can do on this end, please call or PM me. I work in Stockton every day and I'd be more than willing to help out any way I can. Dennis, I've ridden with you dozens of times and I know what a conscientious person you are. Please don't blame yourself, this was not your fault. Sometimes life just sucks.


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

Oh God.. I'm so sorry..for you, and your family.

If there is anything that I can do, apart from pray to God to ease your pain, then let me know.


R.


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

*6 hours isn't that far off if....*

6 hours isn't that far off for a group of riders that isn't that strong. I was out there the last two weeks of May...where we had a couple of days that were 95+. I was out there for my 3rd time, 1st time for the GF.

Twice, starting from way up Top (not the normal 3 mile climb to the viewpoint), when I rode it with her, it took us about 6 hours to do the whole thing. Had I been by myself, it would have taken me about 3 hours. By myself, I went through about 190 oz of water each time before making it to the spring.

FWIW, Stockton, while not desert, is a place that can get pretty hot during the summer. That may have given them a fals sense of security.


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## Bob the Wheelbuilder (Sep 21, 2003)

Ogre

I'm so sorry. Such a bizzare twist to this thread. It makes me realize how shallow and judgemental I am. I apologize for the thoughts I had before I got to your post. Don't be too hard on yourself.

You were doing what you loved with your family. I hope you will eventually find some peace in that.

Bob


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

0gre said:


> It's amazing to me how many people are willing to pass judgement on people based on some little blurb in the news.
> 
> I watched my daughter die on Monday.
> 
> Clearly there was a tragic series of poor decisions on my part and I will have that on my concience for the rest of my life.


 Ogre, I think we are all deeply saddened by this event and that it's you, just hits us deeper and closer to home. I don't think any of us can imagine the pain you have right now nor the horror of the situation. A lot of comments were certainly made here based on what people read initially and simply reflect peoples fears--in hope it doesn't happen to them. After the second article in the SLC paper, people seem to realize that your group didn't just go riding like some idiots.

Nothing can soothe the pain you feel at this moment and I'm sure many realize you did what you thought was the best thing to do at the time. When things go bad, they are not always clear until after the fact. Lightning can strike even the best prepared.

I'm so sorry for your loss.

...................


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## palerider (Jul 15, 2004)

*hot heat*

I am so very very very sorry to hear of this. Wish I could of been on the trail to help, please dont blame yourself. Bad things happen to good people.


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## Jessep (Dec 1, 2004)

Yeah, bad things good people, I can't even imagine what it's like to lose a child (being somewhat of a child myself). Reading this post surely won't help but I'll just say I'm so so sorry for your loss anyway..


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

Oh, Jeez. I am so sorry to hear this.

Thinking about you in this terrible time.

Gary


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

*Shocked to hear of your loss*

Dennis and Char,

Its very sad to hear of your very tragic loss. It's quite a shock to everyone. I've been trying to figure out a strategy to organize a NorCal family MTBR ride to meet up with our families. All that seems so trivial now. Even with our weak connection, it seems like a part of my life has been ripped away. Your family must be devastated beyond words.

Don't blame yourselves. It's clear you were prepared, and even the brief news blurbs made that clear. You are the most prepared and best care taker of fellow riders of any MTBR guy I've seen - by a big margin, as I've said many times before. In retrospect you can drive yourself nuts thinking what you should have done. Don't go there. Accidents result from small incidental things, that in rare cases lead to unforseen catastrophic results due to odd factors. Focus instead on pulling together with your family and help them through this too.

I'm sure many here know you well and think very highly of you and your family. We are very concerned. 
When you can, let us all know how we can help in any way.

-Larry


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

*Ogre, godspeed in the healing.*

I certainly cannot imagine what you are going through, but please know that this was certainly a mix of circumstance and fate. I recently did a trip in Peru where one of the guys on the trip, a hale and hearty athelete, nearly died due to a combination of possible hyponetremia and sunstroke...and he was a 34 year old STRONG athelete. On top of that, it was only in the upper eighties. My point is that we (collectively) do play hard, and that can be dangerous. But I would like to think that your family is more special as a result of what you have done together than what you did not. Clearly your love was shared in many places and many ways. 
I wish you the best in finding a way through this, I am sure at this time it must seem impossible to wade through all of the emotions that must be coursing through you. There are, I am sure, many here who are willing to help in ANY WAY that we can. Please ask.


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## cohenfive (Jan 12, 2004)

ogre and char, i'm very sorry for your loss. i only met you guys at auburn last winter but could tell you are caring, loving people and parents. our thoughts are with you...


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## JFR (Jan 15, 2004)

Dennis, I'm terribly saddened by this news of your family's tragedy. I'm so sorry one has befallen you. If I can help in any way, please let me know.


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## mcgarry (Feb 3, 2004)

Yeah, I don't know what to say. I'm sad and want to give 0gre a hug! It's all I can think to do. I am so sorry to hear this. I just met her a few weeks ago, we talked about her high school. I just played Pavement's "Lions (Linden)" for her.


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## Aussie Bob (Jan 9, 2004)

*Shock and disbelief !*

Dear Dennis and Char my heart goes out to you both , I just car'nt belive this has hapend it seems just yesterday we were riding and camping at Boggs . God bless you and your family in your time of need your friend Aussie Bob


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## imjps (Dec 22, 2003)

Dennis,

I am, as well as my family, are truely sorry to read about your loss. Please know that we are thinking about your family. 

I am so sorry to read about this.

Jim


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Oh my goodness Ogre and char, I am so shocked and saddened. Your daughter loved biking and you were all so jazzed about this trip. If there is anything I can do please let me know.


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## scrublover (Dec 30, 2003)

lidarman said:


> Well there is also _hyponatremia,_ or or low blood sodium. One can drink water all day but if the body is weak in electrolytes, it will still shut down. This might have been a big factor in this accident given the family was on their third day and might not have been replenshing electrolytes properly either.


nmnmnm!


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## terminaut (Dec 19, 2003)

Deepest condolences.


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## scrublover (Dec 30, 2003)

0gre said:


> It's amazing to me how many people are willing to pass judgement on people based on some little blurb in the news.
> 
> I watched my daughter die on Monday.
> 
> Clearly there was a tragic series of poor decisions on my part and I will have that on my concience for the rest of my life.


very sorry to hear of your loss, and of the rest of your families loss.

everyone else is all right?


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## TheSherpa (Jan 15, 2004)

Godspeed Ogre.


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## GuruAtma (May 17, 2004)

I'm so sorry Dennis. I had the good fortune of hanging out with your wonderful family at Boggs. I feel terrible.

Bill


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## biggz (Feb 20, 2005)

My absolute sincerest condolences to you both and your entire family.


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## UncleMTB (Jan 13, 2004)

*Dennis...Thanks...*

...for bringing your daughter up to Boggs so that Hoz and I could meet and spend some time with her.

Our thoughts are with you.
Tim


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## Redmon (Jan 12, 2004)

I have never met Ogre but I always feel like I know people from the boards both met and not met. Makes me very sad and would just like to offer my deepest sympathy for your loss,

Shawn


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## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

Dennis & Char,
I can't say we know each other, maybe an exchange on these boards, maybe a friendly wave or hello on a ride, but I'm sitting here crying for you. Life can be so unfair. 
My deepest condolences to you and your family. Be strong. 
Chris


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

I'm so sorry for your loss, I'm sure words cannot describe what you're going through. Don't blame yourself.


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## 8Trak (Jan 20, 2004)

*My condolences*

Dennis and Char,

I'm saddenned to hear the news of your loss. My thoughts are with you and your family.

-Dave


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## jilm (Jan 23, 2004)

*I'm so sorry Dennis*

I've ridden with you several times and have met your wife and daughters. My impressions were always of a decent and loving family. While there is nothing I could say to alleviate your pain, please accept my deepest condolences.


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## Joe Steel (Dec 30, 2003)

*Peace be with you*

Dennis,

You did nothing wrong. A tragic thing happened that no one could anticipate. You are a loving and caring father.

Our thoughts and prayers are with you. Allow your family and friends the opportunity to support you in your time of need.

Joe


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## derek (Jan 13, 2004)

Dennis,

So sorry to hear about your loss. May God be with you and your family.

-Derek


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## Jorgemonkey (Mar 10, 2004)

*Dennis*

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family at this time. I am getting married in a few months, and I don't know what I would do if anything happened to my fiancee. I can't image the feeling of losing a child. Bad things definatly happen to good people, and this is an example of that.


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## Cycledelic (Oct 13, 2004)

*Our hearts are breaking for you*

Dennis,

Hearing of this horrible accident has touched a nerve with my wife and me. With a new daughter on our hands, we can only begin to imagine the sadness and loss you're experiencing.

I wish you comfort in your time of need, and the strength to one day surmount the pain and bring your family even closer together.

Heartfelt condolences,
Tim


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## crashtoomuch (Nov 7, 2004)

0gre said:


> It's amazing to me how many people are willing to pass judgement on people based on some little blurb in the news.
> 
> I watched my daughter die on Monday.
> 
> Clearly there was a tragic series of poor decisions on my part and I will have that on my concience for the rest of my life.


Ogre,

I'm so sorry to hear of your loss. I'll pray for comfort and strength for you and your family. Hang in there.


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## Wasatch Walt (Jan 12, 2004)

0gre said:


> It's amazing to me how many people are willing to pass judgement on people based on some little blurb in the news.
> 
> I watched my daughter die on Monday.
> 
> Clearly there was a tragic series of poor decisions on my part and I will have that on my concience for the rest of my life.


My deepest Sympathy.

Be strong. For all of us and we will be strong for you.

Let us heal. Oh God please let us heal.

Walt


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

0gre said:


> It's amazing to me how many people are willing to pass judgement on people based on some little blurb in the news.
> 
> I watched my daughter die on Monday.
> 
> Clearly there was a tragic series of poor decisions on my part and I will have that on my concience for the rest of my life.


Oh, man! Say it isn't true!

As a father I send you my heart and condolences. I can only imagine what you're going thru. As someone said, it's gotta be much worst than dying.

Don't be too hard on yourself. We all make mistakes, we're human, we're supposed to fail at some moment of our lives.

May god send blessings to you and your family and the strenght to carry such a heavy burden. I'm saying this from my heart as my eyes are flooding.

May you find the peace of mind you so much need now.

Warp


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## the_dude (Jun 18, 2004)

my deepest sympathy and most sincere prayers go out today for you and yours.

-matt


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

datako said:


> Take 2 full bottles of whatever size you like.
> 
> When the first bottle is empty, turn back (unless your destination is closer and it definitely has water). No exceptions.
> 
> This rule has saved my bacon in the Australian outback more than once.


This rule only works if you are doing an out and back and know where you are. For example, if this rule was applied on Porc, it would be a disaster. Imagine doing 3/4 of the trail, then turning back when in reality you are so much better going forward to the road. My god.

I know you said unless your destination is closer, but then the rule should be, go the best way under the conditions.


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## Dwayne (Jun 3, 2005)

My condolences to 0gre and Dennis. Let's hope that she's hope there rocking the clouds on a bike and looking down at you with a smile whenever she hops a cloud gap.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Dirdir said:


> I know you said unless your destination is closer, but then the rule should be, go the best way under the conditions.


That's exactly what he meant....

Take into account that towards the mid-3/4 of the ride you'll be sipping more water out your camel too.

I learnt this the hard way as I grew in a terribly hot-humid weather where despite how much your sweat could cool you, you're loosing water at a very high rate.

For those who don't know it already, 1 liter/hour is what you should consider under hot conditions for not-so-hard riding... if it includes climbing, you'd not want to spend more than 3 hours under those conditions unless you're prepared and used to the heat (read, locals only)

If you live in a cool weather and suddenly go to hot weather (as too many people from northern states do as they visit Moab) take it easy with riding and never be short on water. Limit your rides to two-hours max properly hydrated. Don't be fooled by the fact that you're not sweating... sweat evaporate instantly in hot-dry conditions. You'll notice as you feel salty grains in your eyebrows or you'll discover it as you notice the salt stains on your clothing.


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## aspang (Jan 16, 2004)

Very sorry for your loss Ogre. My prayers are with you and your family.


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## gonzostrike (Jan 3, 2004)

there are no words adequate to console Ogre on the loss. I can hope to get a fraction of the way there by saying,

I am deeply, terribly saddened by this tragedy, and I hope that your inner strength can see you through this painful time. 

condolences and sympathies beyond description I send your way.


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## grumpstumper (Dec 22, 2004)

J.D. said:


> Another reason to call it *dork*upine rim. Some of these people go out into the wilds and think it's gizneyland and find out in a harsh and real way that it's not. I say ban "reality" television and the idiots that watch it because they don't have enough of a life or common sense for a grip on real "reality". Again, it's too bad a kid had to pay the price for their lack of a wise parent.


Zip it.


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## upNdown (Jan 12, 2004)

My deepest condolences. 
There are no words.


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## Dude (Jan 12, 2004)

*So sorry*

I am at a loss for words as one in the MTBR family has fallen.... I hope you and your family heal from this...

-Dude


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## iviguy (Oct 26, 2004)

Evel Knievel said:


> A Darwin award nomination for the Mother.


I agree with you on everything up to that point. I am sure she was a good mother who was spending time with her daughter. They were from California and probably had no idea how much water to bring along or how much to drink. Whether deserving of a Darwin award or not, I would say she has suffered enough to last a lifetime. And for that, my heart goes out to her and her family. No parent should have to bury their kid. Its supposed to work the other way around.

Being a parent myself I am very conscientious about safety with my kids. We never let them out of our sight. But I realize that I can only do what I can do and things can happen outside of my control no matter how hard I try. I just have to realize that I am not in control and I pray to God that He will protect my kids. If God sends the same Angel to protect my kids that I had growing up, they should be fine. Believe me, I tested the limits many times over and shouldn't have survived but here I am. I can only hope that my kiddo's don't do the same stupid things I did growing up.


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## parkmeister (Feb 2, 2004)

*My condolences...*

..to you and your family. I hope that you all will find strength and comfort in this difficult time.

Gary


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

It was good meeting and getting to know both you and your wife Char at the 24HOA. I am so very sorry for your loss.

All my condolences
Nick


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## toones (May 6, 2005)

iviguy said:


> I agree with you on everything up to that point. I am sure she was a good mother who was spending time with her daughter. They were from California and probably had no idea how much water to bring along or how much to drink. Whether deserving of a Darwin award or not, I would say she has suffered enough to last a lifetime. And for that, my heart goes out to her and her family. No parent should have to bury their kid. Its supposed to work the other way around.


Dude, did you read the rest of the thread? I haven't been lurking here that long but even I can see that they knew what they were doing, this is just one of those horrible things we wish we never have to go through.

Ogre, as a father of two daughters I hope I never find out what you're going through. I can't imagine losing one of my girls. My heart goes out to you--God give you strength to get through this.

My deepest sympathy to you and your family.


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## cincicycles (Jun 18, 2005)

*Nice post A$$*



Evel Knievel said:


> Seems that many lessons from the past are being lost on this generation of parents.
> 
> In outdoor activities one should .
> 
> ...


A Darwin award. You must (a) not have kids or (b) not have an ounce of compassion in your body. You must not realize the pain that family is going through right now. I couldn't imagine losing my daughter. They had a 70 oz Camelback. They thought they were doing the right thing. I guess they were not as smart and worldly as you. You know what I bet you really like adventure. I have something for you to try...why don't you go jump off a cliff ...Ass!


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## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

Oh my. 

I am honestly in tears right now.

Dennis and Char please know that our hearts are with you at this time. I know there is nothing we can say to ease your pain right now. Just know that there are people out here who grieve with you and would help you if there was something we could do to help.

Sabine


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

cincicycles said:


> A Darwin award.


Persons like Evel Whatever are the ones that deserve a Darwin Award.... in fact, that post of his earns him a Five Star Darwin Award Nomination. I would go into the details of why, but this is not the proper thread.

What an arse.


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## MacTech (Apr 14, 2005)

Ogre, i know i'm a relative newbie on this board, but please accept my condolences, what your family's going through must be horrible....
once again, i'm deeply sorry for your loss
Russ


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## Boognish (May 27, 2004)

When I began reading this thread yesterday, it gave me great sadness, so much so that I had to fight back some tears. Reading some of the insensitive posts bothered me, and I was inclined to respond negatively. Then I thought better of it, as bickering back and forth about something which none of us knew much about would have been disrespectful to someone's little girl. What's been said has been said, I don't see anything positive coming from complaining about it now.

Some of my favorite childhood memories are of family bike rides. In a time when television does such a great job of babysitting, and so many folks give up family time to earn enough for that new SUV or plasma screen, I think parents who take their kids outside to ride a bike are superstars.


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

Boognish said:


> ... I think parents who take their kids outside to ride a bike are superstars.


Well said


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*My condolences Dennis*

I've spent the past day trying to come up with something to say. But I can think of nothing that could possibly ease your pain. But I am thinking of you and your family.


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

*Inappropriate Second Guessing*

I know many are shocked and saddened like me. I'm very upset, can think of little else, and going through a lot of tissues too.

But for those trying to analyze this problem and mistakes that may have occured - *Don't! *

Yea, Moab was triple digits, yea it was a long ride and only drinking 70 cc (if true) may not be enough, yea you got to worry about electrolytes, yea they may be depleted from previous days,... and so on and so on.... We'll get the real facts and details some day to figure out all those little things that led up to the accident. But for now Sylvia is dead and that's what matters.

From what I've seen of Dennis in the rides he's done at NorCal, he is very experienced and *by far* the most prepared and well planned of any rider I've seen in MTBR rides, and he watches over _everyone_ like a hawk. I'm sure he had plenty of water and knew *all* these things everyone is speculating about. If this could ironically happen to 0gre, one of the smartest and well prepared, it could happen to anyone else 10 times faster. So shut up about being smarter and possible mistakes. We'll have to wait until later to understand why.

As he mentioned in his post, Dennis is already passing his own "judgement" that will be far more accurate and excessively self critical than anything here. Let's not add to it with wild unfounded speculation. He and his family need our support in this crisis.

The funeral is on Monday and I'm debating on going.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

*Nothing to add.*

We've never met, but being a father of two kids I can't even imagine the pain. I don't have words. My thoughts and prayers are with you guys.

John


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## knobbydad (Dec 19, 2003)

*So sorry...*

Dennis, As a father of 4, and 3 of those who now ride with me I can't even imagine. Know that you were doing something that you and your family loved. Things like this are never expected and be at peace knowing these were definitely moments your daughter cherised with her Mom and Dad.

God Bless


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## Wherewolf (Jan 17, 2004)

*How insensitive*

How insensitive. MacTech please edit your post while you still can.


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## J (Mar 25, 2004)

I don't know what to say. I'm really sorry that this happened. I'm sure it wasn't anyone's fault since I get the impression from the thread that Ogre prepared the best he could for the ride. My sincerest condolences.


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## PMW (May 12, 2004)

Dennis, I'm so sorry about the loss of your daughter. Uncle MTB's message thanking you for allowing him to meet her made me cry. I know that I have had, and many people on this board have probably had experiences in which a small mistake or misjudgement almost led to tragic circumstances. Only through fate or blind luck were we able to somehow get our friends, family or ourselves through relatively unscathed. 
Remember that your daughter knew she was greatly loved by you and your wife, and that you would of done anything, even sacrifice yourself, for her well being. My thoughts are with you and your family.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

*Fiona's Thanks!!*



scrublover said:


> very sorry to hear of your loss, and of the rest of your families loss.
> 
> everyone else is all right?


As well as can be expected. From the article you know that one of us was flown to the hospital (me). What it doesn't say is that the other two were admitted also. Ogre was not in great shape and the other daughter had crashed earlier in the day (part of the reason for the extended day). She took 8 stitches to the face and was also treated to an ice packing for being over 100d internally.

It was a great day at the beginning, but EVERYTHING seemed to go to HELL. I wish people would think before they passed judgement. Those who know Ogre and me know we thought carefully BEFORE the ride. This was how our family spent time together.

Thanks for your well-wishes!!!!

---Fiona


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## Once_Upon_A_Time (Aug 13, 2004)

*J.d.*

You are such a wonderful human being.

Monica


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## budgie (May 14, 2004)

My deepest condolences. I've often thought that if my time was up, I'd rather be biking with my family and friends than pretty much anything else in the world. 

My thoughts are with you in this terrible time.


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## MacTech (Apr 14, 2005)

Wherewolf said:


> How insensitive. MacTech please edit your post while you still can.


it wasn't meant to be insensitive, if it was taken that way, i apologize


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## Frozenspokes (May 26, 2004)

*Ogre and Family*

I feel for you. You all have my prayers.

Tony


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## gcaz (Mar 28, 2005)

0gre said:


> As well as can be expected. From the article you know that one of us was flown to the hospital (me). What it doesn't say is that the other two were admitted also. Ogre was not in great shape and the other daughter had crashed earlier in the day (part of the reason for the extended day). She took 8 stitches to the face and was also treated to an ice packing for being over 100d internally.
> 
> It was a great day at the beginning, but EVERYTHING seemed to go to HELL. I wish people would think before they passed judgement. Those who know Ogre and me know we thought carefully BEFORE the ride. This was how our family spent time together.
> 
> ...


I can't belive you have the courage and heart to thank folks here for their support -- I can tell you all did the very best you could and this just turned out to be the worst kind of terrible luck.

Let's all remember how precious and fragile life can be; be thankful for what we have and make the effort to cherish those we love around us.

My sincere best wishes for the healing to come.



Alfred Tennyson said:


> Though much is taken, much abides; and though
> We are not now that strength which in old days
> Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are ---
> One equal temper of heroic hearts,
> ...


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## saldman (Aug 5, 2003)

*Just a lurker here but I am sorry for your loss.*

I am a non-practicing Catholic due to the Mac-crazy pace of sociaty, but tonight I will make an exception and pray for your family. Today, my 9 month old daughter had her first bump on the head and I felt horrible watching her cry. I can't imagine your pain.

Be strong!

Sal


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## darth tracer (Jan 13, 2004)

i am so sorry to hear of your loss. my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.


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## UpRocks (Jun 24, 2004)

This thread is so difficult to read. You have realized one of a parent's worst fears...the loss of a child,..a fear particularly relevant to those of us who involve our children in our active lifestyles.

It makes me tremble to think what you must be going through right now. I am so sorry. And helpless as well, knowing there is nothing I can do to remove the pain that is in your heart.

My only hope is you can find some small measure of relief in knowing your grief is shared by every individual who has been made aware of these events.

There is simply nothing else I can think to say except your daughter must have loved you both very much for being so involved in her life.

May God bless and comfort you.

Raymond


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

Please add my thoughts and condolences to those who have already expressed theirs. You sound like a strong family that, in time, will find a way to carry on together and honor her memory.


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## Anita Handle (Nov 21, 2004)

just a lurker but also a parent. wow. I just can't imagine what you guys are going through.

it's a delicate balance. any conscientous parent wants to show their children the riches of life but a lot of things that are worth seeing and experiencing come with risk. we can't let fear drive us to huddle our kids away indoors, playing video games, visiting the mall, watching TV. what kind of life is that? 

I took my daughter on a social paced in-town road ride here in San Antonio a couple of weeks ago. I've seen other kids there but every kid is different and she wasn't real experienced on busy city streets. I thought I was going to vomit half the time out of fear of her wobbling out into a cars way or getting caught up in another riders wheel. I wondered if her experiencing her longest ride yet, doing a group ride, riding amongst cars... was worth the risk I exposed her to. I think it was and I'd like to think that it still would have been even if an unexpected, unfortunate event had occurred.

may god bless your family.


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## johnnyb (Jan 21, 2004)

*My deepest condolences, Ogre...*

I'm usually a lurker but what I have just been reading leaves me in stunned sadness as I've seen this post for a while now but stopped reading because I saw the glib sarcasm that followed. But tonight as I followed the posts, I'm speechless. I have two kids, I think a lot of us have kids on this website. You think kids are indestructible because they are so young and energetic but these little gifts that we get are so precious. I'm praying hard for you now and wish for healing and peace.

Ogre, you did the right thing taking your kids out for an adventure and Moab is definitley a peak experience in anyone's book. This was an accident, don't blame yourself

johnnyb


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## STinGa (Jan 14, 2004)

*My condolences to you and your family*

Dennis,

As a parent of two little girls, I can only imagine what you are feeling. I admire you for planning and taking such vacations with your family, it shows how much you care about them and want to share the world with them. Too many parents never leave the house as a family and their children suffer due to this.

Even though I have not met you, many respected members from the MTBR family have stepped forward and praised your judgments and abilities. I, along with others I am sure, trust their judgement. This was an accident, don't blame yourself.

I hope that you and your family survive such a sad time. You have my condolences, thoughts, and prayers.

Tom


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## snowbikechic15 (Oct 7, 2004)

*I'm sorry for your loss*



0gre said:


> It's amazing to me how many people are willing to pass judgement on people based on some little blurb in the news.
> 
> I watched my daughter die on Monday.
> 
> Clearly there was a tragic series of poor decisions on my part and I will have that on my concience for the rest of my life.


My God this was terrible, I'm so sorry for your loss, the fact that you are able to share this great sport with you family is amazing! I'm your daughters age and I would kill if I could ride with my parents, but its just me who rides in my family....May God be with you and you family!


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

*Interesting observation....*



Bob the Wheelbuilder said:


> Ogre
> 
> I'm so sorry. Such a bizzare twist to this thread. It makes me realize how shallow and judgemental I am. I apologize for the thoughts I had before I got to your post. Don't be too hard on yourself.


First, Ogre, my deepest condolences. As an about to be dad, I can't even begin to imagine the pain you're experiencing.

As for the observation, it's interesting to see people's reactions both before and after realizing this was someone with some type of group connection. Very frequently someone will post an article on here about some tragedy or other and people (myself included) are quick to climb up on a high horse and pronounce judgement based on the very limited information about the circumstances available through the news.

I wonder if the judgements would be less supportive, even knowing the preparation and experience level of the riders, if this didn't happen to one of our own? It's easy to think how much smarter we are, how much more experienced we are, how much better we are at doing things than an anonymous person you read about in the news. No benefit of the doubt whatsoever. But, of course, when you do know the person in some way, they get every benefit of the doubt. It's natural.

This isn't meant to flame anyone at all. It's just an observation I had based on reading the posts and thinking about the tragedy.

Again, Ogre and Char, I offer you my deepest sympathy. And I applaud your strength and spirit.


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## BSG (Jan 11, 2004)

I must agree with skiahh. 
In life we all make poor decitions. Most of the time we get away with them. Im not sure how mush desert riding experence they had but Ive had a decent amount living only two hours from moab and fruita. I always see post of people who are asking if they can ride moab in july. The answere for me is always no(unless you night ride) My desert riding season ends in mid may and starts up in late september. Porcupine rim is a brutal ride no matter what time of year it is. The rough downhill can really abuse anyone. The single track at the end is some of the finest single track around but is technically very tough with a huge dropoffs for much of it. 80 ounces of water is barely enough if the temps are in the 70's. I rode it in ealy april this year and went through 80ounces and the temps never reached above 65. 
Im not blaming anyone. Just discussing the trajic events that occured. Ive made many mistakes in my life and lost a friend in an avalanche because of our poor decitions that we made. Nature can be very forgiving but also brutal.
Peace
BSG


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## mtbbill (Dec 31, 2003)

*I'm so sorry*

Dennis,
I'm so sorry for your loss. I wish there was something I could say or do that would help but I know there is nothing that could be adequate. Just know that I am thinking about your family.

Sincerely,
Bill


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

0gre said:


> It's amazing to me how many people are willing to pass judgement on people based on some little blurb in the news.
> 
> I watched my daughter die on Monday.
> 
> Clearly there was a tragic series of poor decisions on my part and I will have that on my concience for the rest of my life.


may god bless you in this time of need... I am so sorry to hear of your loss


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

rideit said:


> I certainly cannot imagine what you are going through, but please know that this was certainly a mix of circumstance and fate. I recently did a trip in Peru where one of the guys on the trip, a hale and hearty athelete, nearly died due to a combination of possible hyponetremia and sunstroke...and he was a 34 year old STRONG athelete. On top of that, it was only in the upper eighties. My point is that we (collectively) do play hard, and that can be dangerous. But I would like to think that your family is more special as a result of what you have done together than what you did not. Clearly your love was shared in many places and many ways.
> I wish you the best in finding a way through this, I am sure at this time it must seem impossible to wade through all of the emotions that must be coursing through you. There are, I am sure, many here who are willing to help in ANY WAY that we can. Please ask.


I am so sorry to hear the loss


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> Persons like Evel Whatever are the ones that deserve a Darwin Award.... in fact, that post of his earns him a Five Star Darwin Award Nomination. I would go into the details of why, but this is not the proper thread.
> 
> What an arse.


Not entirely. The fact that the parents are undoubtedly very nice human beings and knowlegable about outdoors and biking and the fact that we all feel deep sympathy towards them in light of this tragedy does not change the fact that they screwed up. They did. Even the most experienced people do make mistakes. I would not blame them. They should not blame themselves either.

With all due respect and sympathy to the parents, there is a lesson in every tragedy, and pointing it out is not entirely inappropriate - in a separate discussion, without bringing personalities in.

I have lost very close friends in the mountains and one in a parachuting accident. While I love them, when it was not an entirely unfortunate accident, I do talk about them making mistakes. It is not disrespect. It saves lives of others. Alpinists or skydivers know that well. You drink one and climb another one for those who are gone.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

datako said:


> Take 2 full bottles of whatever size you like.
> 
> When the first bottle is empty, turn back (unless your destination is closer and it definitely has water). No exceptions.


Bingo. The point of no return rule.

Though it does not seem applicable in this case. If you do not drink enough, it would not matter which way you are going. And heat kills even a hydrated person.

Probably sitting in the shade until evening would have helped. But kids do not pace themself to notice they need that.


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

Axe said:


> ...With all due respect and sympathy to the parents, there is a lesson in every tragedy, and pointing it out is not entirely inappropriate.


At this time it is inappropriate


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

CHUM said:


> At this time it is inappropriate


Maybe. Though there is no "Accidents in American mountaineering"-type publication for such accidents. There should be.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Axe said:


> Not entirely. The fact that the parents are undoubtedly very nice human beings and knowlegable about outdoors and biking and the fact that we all feel deep sympathy towards them in light of this tragedy does not change the fact that they screwed up. They did. Even the most experienced people do make mistakes. I would not blame them. They should not blame themselves either.
> 
> With all due respect and sympathy to the parents, there is a lesson in every tragedy, and pointing it out is not entirely inappropriate - in a separate discussion, without bringing personalities in.
> 
> I have lost very close friends in the mountains and one in a parachuting accident. While I love them, when it was not an entirely unfortunate accident, I do talk about them making mistakes. It is not disrespect. It saves lives of others. Alpinists or skydivers know that well. You drink one and climb another one for those who are gone.


I'm glad to see you've edited this reply from your original version.


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## J.D. (Jan 14, 2004)

*funny*



grumpstumper said:


> Zip it.


Funny how you had to edit such a witty reply. The truth hurts, as does reality. Try some of both sometime, junior.


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## J.D. (Jan 14, 2004)

*tell us*



Once_Upon_A_Time said:


> You are such a wonderful human being.
> 
> Monica


Tell us Monica, which reality tv shows do you watch? Also, you never told us all how you acquired your Nissan Titan. BTW, I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you at FFTF. You could have had the chance to tell me how inhumane I am in person. That would have been a good piece of reality, since your keyboard courage seems to be so overwhelming.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

J.D. said:


> Tell us Monica, which reality tv shows do you watch? Also, you never told us all how you acquired your Nissan Titan. BTW, I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you at FFTF. You could have had the chance to tell me how inhumane I am in person. That would have been a good piece of reality, since your keyboard courage seems to be so overwhelming.


j.d,

On this, you're nth offensive post. It is clear you need much time alone. Arrivederci!

francois


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## Jack Hass (Jun 27, 2004)

J.D. said:


> Tell us Monica, which reality tv shows do you watch? Also, you never told us all how you acquired your Nissan Titan. BTW, I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you at FFTF. You could have had the chance to tell me how inhumane I am in person. That would have been a good piece of reality, since your keyboard courage seems to be so overwhelming.


Jerome,

There is a time and place for everything, but this is neither the time or the place.


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## GuruAtma (May 17, 2004)

francois said:


> j.d,
> 
> On this, you're nth offensive post. It is clear you need much time alone. Arrivederci!
> 
> francois


Thanks Francois! This is now a happier place


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## Bob the Wheelbuilder (Sep 21, 2003)

francois said:


> Arrivederci!


Thank you, francois.

I appreciate your writeup of the memorial service.


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

*Where the hell is it?*



Bob the Wheelbuilder said:


> I appreciate your writeup of the memorial service.


???

fp


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## fred-da-trog (Oct 28, 2003)

Finch Platte said:


> ???
> 
> fp


Easy big fella, if you haven't found it yet
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=110341&page=4


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

I have not been on Passion in a while, and had not heard about this tragic situation. Deepest condolences to you and your family.


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