# Sick of the forum sexism



## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

Is anyone else sick and tired of the casual sexism that pervades this forum? Each and every time I have pointed it out I get the same old response: "lighten up", "chill out", "it was a joke"... blah, blah, blah.

This is why women don't feel included on forums... anything that's not the "women's area" is considered fair game for misogyny. I never get this attitude out on the trails. In person I'm another rider out enjoying the ride, so why is it not like that here? I come here to read about bikes and riding, not to be insulted and then told to chill when I call someone out on their BS.

Frankly, I could save myself a lot of irritation by just not reading the forums, but I'd then miss out on a lot of stuff that is genuinely interesting and engaging. Sorry for the rant, but in my opinion if we want inclusivity in mountain biking it needs to be on the web and in the media, as well as on the trail. 

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mahgnillig said:


> Is anyone else sick and tired of the casual sexism that pervades this forum? Each and every time I have pointed it out I get the same old response: "lighten up", "chill out", "it was a joke"... blah, blah, blah.
> 
> This is why women don't feel included on forums... anything that's not the "women's area" is considered fair game for misogyny. I never get this attitude out on the trails. In person I'm another rider out enjoying the ride, so why is it not like that here? I come here to read about bikes and riding, not to be insulted and then told to chill when I call someone out on their BS.
> 
> ...


Bad post them. It's been addressed before but apparently the children need a reminder.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

It won't change. I wish Gabrielle could bring back her awesome avatar. Makes such a great point. It was also fun to watch the guys whine about her avatar and I still see so much sexists ones out there.

I would love to start a women's only MTB forum. Not sure how to 1) enforce that (I'll need mods no way I'm doing this solo) and 2) capture the community that's here. I don't need sponsors or ads: just support and enough people.

If I get enough interest I might give it a try. I've seen other women's only forums, and tbh, they're not the same at all.

I'm open to ideas and suggestions or you can tell me to piss off


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

stripes said:


> It won't change. I wish Gabrielle could bring back her awesome avatar. Makes such a great point. It was also fun to watch the guys whine about her avatar and I still see so much sexists ones out there.
> 
> I would love to start a women's only MTB forum. Not sure how to 1) enforce that (I'll need mods no way I'm doing this solo) and 2) capture the community that's here. I don't need sponsors or ads: just support and enough people.
> 
> ...


Stay here and make this board better. I always enjoy your content, it'd be a shame to lose it. My two cents.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> Stay here and make this board better. I always enjoy your content, it'd be a shame to lose it. My two cents.


I'll stay here until they get rid of me. I'm not on fakebook and there's enough fun people that I'm not going anywhere. Thank goodness for fun threads coming back.

I do agree there does need to be a less sexist place for women to talk about bikes. And Facebook isn't it.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I would hate to see the women leave. Diversity makes things interesting.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

chazpat said:


> I would hate to see the women leave. Diversity makes things interesting.


Thanks Chaz. There's good dudes like you here.

I do see the OP's point though. The sexism here is really frustrating, especially the non-blatant stuff and it's all acceptable.

It would be nice to see something done, but I'm not sure the best way to do it.

I used to be a mod here, and I'd be happy to do that again, but it wouldn't help the sexism elsewhere on this forum.

That said, I still think fakebook is far worse.


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

chazpat said:


> I would hate to see the women leave. Diversity makes things interesting.


Yes, it does! And I really enjoy reading this forum for the most part. The thing is, I don't need casual sexism in my life. I spend a fair amount of time browsing around here because i'm tied to a desk all day and I need a bit of an escape in between mundane tasks. I would rather not spend my time either turning the other cheek or pointing out what a d'bag someone is... I just want to read about bikes.

Just to be clear on what the problem is... it's casual sexism. Not blatant stuff that people get hit with the ban hammer for (like steelcalf)... that is bad but the mods do their job there. I'm talking offhand remarks about fat chicks, girlfriend bikes, hiding stuff from their wives, describing something as "tits". The very worst thing to be told when you call someone out for being offensive is that you don't have a sense of humour. I have a freaking great sense of humour thanks, I just don't find a-holes who hide behind a  because they think it excuses their behaviour funny.

I think women's forums can work (The Ski Diva is an excellent example) but any time you slim down the pool of contributors you end up with less content, and content drives forums. Maybe from now on I'll start cross posting to the Women's MTB Experience forum.

If you're reading this and you're a guy, just consider for a second whether you'd say that thing you're about to post to your wife, sister, girlfriend or mother. If not, you probably shouldn't post it.


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## fleboz (Apr 22, 2015)

delete


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

I have to agree there is some bad sexist stuff out there. I have mostly spent time on the commuter, women's and maybe the dog passion page lately, so I have not seen as much of it lately. The commuter forum I find very woman friendly even though there are not many women on it; part of it is that it is small and many of the contributors feel like they know one another. I don't have enough negative energy to run around policing the whole MTBR forum, but I will point it out where offensive. I think you can have a positive influence and get at least some supporters if you hang in a particular subforum enough, though I think that is harder in the larger ones. Just more participation from women would also help. I do love when I get a "thanks bro" or something like that, and someone else points out to them that mtbx is not a bro. A lot of participants assume it is all guys on here. I have seen some womens forums elsewhere, maybe Terry Bikes or one of the womens bike clothes sites. Not a forum, but Bike Shop Girl on FB has some good stuff. Other places to visit can add some balance, throw in your suggestions if you have any.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

chazpat said:


> I would hate to see the women leave. Diversity makes things interesting.


Agreed. There are some great and amazing women athletes in this sport from the World Cup down to the local trails. I personally love watching the women's WC races as the field and passion shown exceed that of the men's.

I personally have no clue of the sexism on the board as a whole; I'm pretty specific on the threads I dive into, so that probably keeps me out of the loop. That said, you gals have a lot to offer so stick with it! Personally I browse here in hopes of having some insight should my wife decide to join me one day in riding. That I'll have to pray happens but I'll keep with it!


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

Would you quit with the "fakebook" crap? Some of us do use Facebook and find it a valid and useful way to keep up with friends and organizations of interest. As in all things, it is how you use it that matters. Funny that a thread calling for "inclusivity" on a social network (forum) casually insults people who use other social networks. Pot, meet kettle?


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

MtbRN said:


> Would you quit with the "fakebook" crap? Some of us do use Facebook and find it a valid and useful way to keep up with friends and organizations of interest. As in all things, it is how you use it that matters. Funny that a thread calling for "inclusivity" on a social network (forum) casually insults people who use other social networks. Pot, meet kettle?


No. Neg rep me or kick me out of the WL. I don't care.

I hate Facebook. Many people here do. At the same time, many people like it for the same reasons you do. Whatever.

I'm entitled to my opinion.

So go ahead and keep derailing this thread. I'm sure the OP would appreciate that. /sarcasm

EDITED: not to derail thread.


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## lambchop43 (Feb 4, 2007)

*Yep, agreed*

I almost never post here or anywhere else due to this very issue. It's just not worth dealing with the (sometimes) bad vibes. And, for the record, that goes for facebook and all social media as well.

And this won't be a popular opinion, I'm sure... but guys coming here to ask what bike, cranks, saddle, shorts to buy for their girlfriend is so misguided. If she doesn't care enough to pick her own gear, she's never going to love biking.

I've been riding for over 20 years and I can't keep track of the number of friends who've been gifted an unwanted mountain bike by their husband. Then in a couple years, after one or two mandatory rides, it gets sold. I have a friend whose husband has bought her two mountain bikes that she's barely ridden. Another friend has told me multiple times how much she hates biking, but her husband is convinced that she'll learn to love it and is shopping for her 2nd mountain bike. And I have a male friend who buys cute bike clothes for his wife to make her want to ride (doesn't work). I could go on, but I won't


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## Sparkman999 (Dec 19, 2017)

lambchop43 said:


> And this won't be a popular opinion, I'm sure... but guys coming here to ask what bike, cranks, saddle, shorts to buy for their girlfriend is so misguided. If she doesn't care enough to pick her own gear, she's never going to love biking.
> 
> I've been riding for over 20 years and I can't keep track of the number of friends who've been gifted an unwanted mountain bike by their husband. Then in a couple years, after one or two mandatory rides, it gets sold. I have a friend whose husband has bought her two mountain bikes that she's barely ridden. Another friend has told me multiple times how much she hates biking, but her husband is convinced that she'll learn to love it and is shopping for her 2nd mountain bike. And I have a male friend who buys cute bike clothes for his wife to make her want to ride (doesn't work). I could go on, but I won't


My wife is not very mechanical so leaves that type of stuff to me. She loves riding and goes out riding with the kids and friends even if I'm not available. Funny how you make a broad generalization like that in a thread about sexism.


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## lambchop43 (Feb 4, 2007)

Sparkman999 said:


> My wife is not very mechanical so leaves that type of stuff to me. She loves riding and goes out riding with the kids and friends even if I'm not available. Funny how you make a broad generalization like that in a thread about sexism.


And here we are with the mansplaining. I will never for the life of me understand why so many men lurk around a women's forum.


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## Sparkman999 (Dec 19, 2017)

lambchop43 said:


> And here we are with the mansplaining. I will never for the life of me understand why so many men lurk around a women's forum.


I read the forum on Tapatalk and don't even look at what subsection the posts are in.


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## slowpoker (Jun 4, 2008)

lambchop43 said:


> And here we are with the mansplaining. I will never for the life of me understand why so many men lurk around a women's forum.


I just saw this post on "Latest Forum Posts". You don't have to be in the women's lounge to see what's being discussed.


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## MTBAlabama (May 22, 2015)

mahgnillig said:


> Is anyone else sick and tired of the casual sexism that pervades this forum? Each and every time I have pointed it out I get the same old response: "lighten up", "chill out", "it was a joke"... blah, blah, blah.
> 
> This is why women don't feel included on forums... anything that's not the "women's area" is considered fair game for misogyny. I never get this attitude out on the trails. In person I'm another rider out enjoying the ride, so why is it not like that here? I come here to read about bikes and riding, not to be insulted and then told to chill when I call someone out on their BS.
> 
> ...


If you are having a problem with one member please pm me. As for the entire forum, I wish I could change it for you but to control everyone would degrade the purpose of an open forum. I would like to see it change in a woman's favor because I believe the more people to participate in the forum and in mountain biking the better we all are off.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

lambchop43 said:


> And here we are with the mansplaining. I will never for the life of me understand why so many men lurk around a women's forum.


Completely agree with you. So many of the "what bike do I get for my wife or girlfriend" threads are dumb.

Heaven forbid they actually talk to their wives or girlfriends and ask them what they want.

And agreed about the mansplaining. Mods have zero ****s to give so they just let it happen. Anything for traffic to this site.

It's a shame there's not a "mans lounge" where we can go womensplain about things. That would be fun


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Shred Sisters
Women's Freeride Movement
Biking Betties NW
These are a just a few of the women's only mtb boards I follow on Facebook. No guys, some folks are my friends, local and regional interest... all this has something going for it at least for me.


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## mLeier (Oct 17, 2017)

stripes said:


> No. Neg rep me or kick me out of the WL. I don't care.
> 
> I hate Facebook. Many people here do. At the same time, many people like it for the same reasons you do. Whatever.
> 
> ...


I have to agree. This thread is calling out people for saying things are rude and disrespectful to others. It's the same when a person calls something else by a name that some consider rude and disrespectful but then think that it is fine to do so because that is their opinion. Others might think they are entitled to their opinion that saying sexist things (even in jest) is ok and that you should get a sense of humour. That does not make it right either. I don't think pointing that out is derailing the thread, it's just pointing out that maybe everyone needs to be more sensitive.

Much of the sexist language used doesn't really bother me, but some does and I can see how the rest may bother others so I am sensitive to it. (I also tend to hide the cost of some things from my husband, so totally get that as well.)

There are definitely parts of Facebook that are fake, there is also so much great information and inspiration on there. You just have to unfollow all of your friends and fill your newsfeed with posts from cycling groups and other interests that you may have!

And also, while I do understand that there are many women out there who just aren't interested in riding bikes, I don't understand why it is such a terrible thing for their partners to buy them new bikes or "pretty things" in hopes of getting them interested. Or in coming here and asking what bike might be best for their wife. Their intentions are obviously good and they are trying their hardest to share something that they love with the person that they love and trying to make sure that they are purchasing something that will help them have the most success in doing so. It is absolutely critical to have the person test out the bike before actually purchasing it but coming here and asking what to buy certainly gives them a good idea of where to start and what to look for.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Sparkman999 said:


> My wife is not very mechanical so leaves that type of stuff to me. She loves riding and goes out riding with the kids and friends even if I'm not available. Funny how you make a broad generalization like that in a thread about sexism.


agreed, my wife just hit 1000 miles for the season, mostly without me. We built her new bike together but she asked me to spec it because she doesn't geek out on things like that. I didn't have to come here to ask what to get her but why is that bad? She started riding 2 years ago, I've been riding for over 20. I guess knowing more about the industry makes me sexist and my wife deferring to the recommendation of someone who has more knowledge in that area than her makes her... dumb?? I think a lot of people would argue the opposite.

It sounds like your friends relationship with her husband is pretty poor. "mandatory rides?" It sounds like they need to work on communication, if she's unwilling to tell him how she feels about biking what else is she afraid to say? I'm not a marriage therapist but if my wife or I don't like something we aren't afraid to tell each other. It's a partnership not a dictatorship. Sounds like a miserable life.

Didn't mean to quote you sparkman999


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

I'm kind of okay with men asking what they should get for their wife/girlfriend/daughter here... sometimes people aren't interested enough in the tech side of stuff but enjoy the actual activity, and don't really want to research their own parts. My husband is the perfect example... he likes riding and we ride together at least once a week, but if you ask him what kind of cranks or derailleur he has on his bike he'll look at you like a deer in headlights and mumble something about "the ones that came on the bike".

Of course, I would much rather the wife/girlfriend/daughter in question come on here and ask her own questions because that would help build the community


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I suspect that overall it's condescension, dismissiveness and general misogyny that is the problem, not the "what bike should I buy her" threads. Some people are perfectly happy letting someone else figure things out for them. In the scale of forum annoyances, that is persistence but not the top of the list.


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## mLeier (Oct 17, 2017)

Haha! My husband too. He has no idea. He absolutely loves the bike that I helped him find last year though and trusts me more than any bike store mechanic to keep it running smoothly!


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## slowpoker (Jun 4, 2008)

Wow... Could be that some of us want to surprise our wives with a great bike and don’t trust the opinion of some 5’4” tough guy who claims a large is perfect for him. I came to ask about stache sizing for my wife months ago because she is between sizes. Knew she liked the bike, but she couldn’t decide on the size. Have you seen the guys’ discrepancy in sizing claims? I guess trusting the honesty and experience of other women makes me sexist. Thank you mahgnillig and mLeier for getting that.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

slowpoker said:


> Wow... Could be that some of us want to surprise our wives with a great bike and don't trust the opinion of some 5'4" tough guy who claims a large is perfect for him. I came to ask about stache sizing for my wife months ago because she is between sizes. Knew she liked the bike, but she couldn't decide on the size. Have you seen the guys' discrepancy in sizing claims? I guess trusting the honesty and experience of other women makes me sexist. Thank you mahgnillig and mLeier for getting that.


The concern is the way the questions are asked. It's like every post there forgets to ask the person who is going to be riding the bike vs some strangers on the internet.

Yeah my husband is the type who if you ask what parts are on the bike are the ones I spec'd for it, but he's the one who has to ride it and see the fit and feel.

That's my issue: Talk to your SOs first


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## Sparkman999 (Dec 19, 2017)

Streetdoctor said:


> Didn't mean to quote you sparkman999


lol, no problem ;-)


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

mahgnillig said:


> I'm kind of okay with men asking what they should get for their wife/girlfriend/daughter here... sometimes people aren't interested enough in the tech side of stuff but enjoy the actual activity, and don't really want to research their own parts. My husband is the perfect example... he likes riding and we ride together at least once a week, but if you ask him what kind of cranks or derailleur he has on his bike he'll look at you like a deer in headlights and mumble something about "the ones that came on the bike".
> 
> Of course, I would much rather the wife/girlfriend/daughter in question come on here and ask her own questions because that would help build the community


I think it's more the latter I'd like to see. More women here asking rather than their SOs because that builds the community.

Shoot, I don't mind the guys coming in here either when they add to a productive discussion, but yeah, it would be nice to see them point their female counterparts here instead so we can help build them up.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

The reality is there that some women are perfectly happy to let their SO figure it out or default to them. No amount of wishing or even educating them is going to change it.

"...the power to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

formica said:


> The reality is there that some women are perfectly happy to let their SO figure it out or default to them. No amount of wishing or even educating them is going to change it.
> 
> "...the power to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."


My wife takes care of ALL of the finances. Has for 30+ years, since I was deployed regularly in the Navy. I just don't worry my pretty little head about that nonsense. My focus is our fun gear. It's "division of labor" and works just fine, thank you!


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## Sage of the Sage (Nov 10, 2011)

I enjoy mountain biking, and I enjoy talking to people who mountain bike. One of the reasons I love this forum is because, with a few exceptions, I really have no clue as to whether a poster is male, female, black, white, orange, purple, or otherwise. We are all humans who love to ride bikes. It’d be nice if everybody could focus on that instead of having to deal with garbage attitudes... it would certainly help the sport.


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

FWIW I'm tired of sexism too, but I expect it to outlive me. Bleh.

Riding is one way to get away from it all for a while.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

verslowrdr said:


> FWIW I'm tired of sexism too, but I expect it to outlive me. Bleh.
> 
> Riding is one way to get away from it all for a while.


I hadn't been on my bike for three weeks. Yesterday I did. That fixed it for me too 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

stripes said:


> I hadn't been on my bike for three weeks...


YIKES. This time of year I'm feeling like something is terribly wrong if I'm off for three days!


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## btsjeff (Dec 13, 2013)

Lighten up a bit, isn't it a bit sexist that women get a Lounge, but there is no "Men's Lounge" ? Not everything is sexist and once you start playing the victim everything becomes that way to you. That's just not a good way to live. Stay Strong!


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Two months of peace down the drain.


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

btsjeff said:


> Lighten up a bit, isn't it a bit sexist that women get a Lounge, but there is no "Men's Lounge" ? Not everything is sexist and once you start playing the victim everything becomes that way to you. That's just not a good way to live. Stay Strong!


Thanks for the mansplain...

/facepalm

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mahgnillig again.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

stripes said:


> It won't change. I wish Gabrielle could bring back her awesome avatar. Makes such a great point. It was also fun to watch the guys whine about her avatar and I still see so much sexists ones out there.


I'll let Gabrielle know you said so when I see her this weekend at camping/trailworking/riding.
=sParty


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## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

...deleted post


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Travis Bickle said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mahgnillig again.


I got her.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

I haven't had an issue on the general forum, but I don't like the tone of the guys who post in the women's forum while looking for a bike for their spouses/girlfriends, etc. 

For example: 

'I might reconsider putting her on flat pedals...'

What is she, six years old? WTF. 

Or even better, 'the wife.' I hate that way of referring to a woman. The cat. The dog. The wife. Yeah. Whatever. Pervasive superiority over women. That's what I see.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

btsjeff said:


> Lighten up a bit, isn't it a bit sexist that women get a Lounge, but there is no "Men's Lounge" ? Not everything is sexist and once you start playing the victim everything becomes that way to you. That's just not a good way to live. Stay Strong!


That would be the rest of the forum.


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

Muirenn said:


> I haven't had an issue on the general forum, but I don't like the tone of the guys who post in the women's forum while looking for a bike for their spouses/girlfriends, etc.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


Reminds me of one terrible experience trying to buy a car... the salesperson, who happened to be male, kept saying "I can put you in this [make/model]". What I said was "I can put myself in the car, thank you very much"; what I wanted to say was "I will put you in the f'ing hospital if you don't shut up". Needless to say I did not buy a car from him 

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Muirenn said:


> I haven't had an issue on the general forum, but I don't like the tone of the guys who post in the women's forum while looking for a bike for their spouses/girlfriends, etc.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


WTF right back at you.

As far as choosing her pedals, she knew nothing. Nothing at all about bicycling. She specifically trusted and asked that I make the decisions to assist her in this process. What, was she going to go and shop, and purchase $5k worth of bike & gear having not ridden any bike besides a beach cruiser and never having been on a trail when her husband is obsessed with mtb's and lives and breathes the sport and equipment?

We have a partnership and we embrace our strengths, it's not a negative or a weakness for us to learn and gain from each other and to excel in different areas. Lord knows I lean on her expertise all of the time and i'm shameless about it.

Get a grip and get over yourself.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

Suns_PSD said:


> WTF right back at you.
> 
> As far as choosing her pedals, she knew nothing. Nothing at all about bicycling. She specifically trusted and asked that I make the decisions to assist her in this process. What, was she going to go and shop, and purchase $5k worth of bike & gear having not ridden any bike besides a beach cruiser and never having been on a trail when her husband is obsessed with mtb's and lives and breathes the sport and equipment?
> 
> ...


Dude. I'm fine. And your entire attitude towards 'the wife' is one of superiority.

Now. I wasn't talking to you. I was talking about you.

Just like you talk about...'The Wife.'

My grip is fine.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

mahgnillig said:


> Reminds me of one terrible experience trying to buy a car... the salesperson, who happened to be male, kept saying "I can put you in this [make/model]". What I said was "I can put myself in the car, thank you very much"; what I wanted to say was "I will put you in the f'ing hospital if you don't shut up". Needless to say I did not buy a car from him
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


I wouldn't either. People don't seem to understand that taking ownership of another person's autonomy is belittling. Whether a person knows what they are doing, or not, they still need to be asked, and treated as though they are an equal.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Don't waste your time worrying what someone on a forum says or thinks. If you don't like that persons perspective then don't read the their posts


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

chazpat said:


> I got her.


Says the guy who's avatar is _putting himself off his bike !!_


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Womp womp.


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

Muirenn said:


> I wouldn't either. People don't seem to understand that taking ownership of another person's autonomy is belittling. Whether a person knows what they are doing, or not, they still need to be asked, and treated as though they are an equal.


Bingo! We have a winner.

You don't "put" your spouse on a piece of equipment, and you don't "let" them buy something.

You put the pedals on the bike, not your wife on the pedals, and I'm assuming she puts herself on the bike because she's an adult and knows how pedals work. In the same vein, you don't "let" your wife choose new handlebars, she goes to the shop and picks her own damn bars, possibly with your help, because she's a grown woman and doesn't need permission from her husband to buy something.

This isn't just semantics. It's exactly what I was getting at in the very first post... insidious, ingrained sexism, and most men don't even realise they're doing it.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

mahgnillig said:


> Bingo! We have a winner.
> 
> You don't "put" your spouse on a piece of equipment, and you don't "let" them buy something.
> 
> This isn't just semantics. It's exactly what I was getting at in the very first post... insidious, ingrained sexism, and most men don't even realise they're doing it.


Yep and, Some of this (tactics and lingo) was actually taught in the mid to late 1990's.

I had the luck of being in the car business just as the internet was kicking into high gear and by luck, I mean I didn't have to play games, follow scripts or use "implanted sales tactics, phrases or secrets". IOW, Straight up, here's my price I can offer. Good fortune landed me in internet and commercial/fleet sales. The internet shopper was well qualified, well educated and well researched usually knowing exactly what they wanted.

Hell, these "leads" came via the internet as Autobytel and some others where we didn't know if it was Man, Woman or Child doing the shopping. So much easier and everyone treated equally, professionally and respectfully.

Still, I witnessed the other 'training' and much of car sales then was painting a picture so the customer could visualize themselves driving that new-to-them car or truck.
_
*"Putting someone in a car" *_was business slang that usually meant _"putting a deal together" _for any customer, the voodoo of car sales; The science making the numbers work which was just as often making the numbers confusing. 

Also used; _The Manager Desking The Deal_ which is a variety of things including wasting time, getting the mgr approval or often times, part of the back and forth negotiation 'process'.

Also taught, *Women held the purse strings.* The concerns questions or objections had to be resolved with the S/O be it girlfriend, wife or anyone else.

*The "Sit of the car"  was expressed as more important to female customers* as well. 
I took that to mean ergonomics , comfort and the way the seat adjusted and fit. It was implied if not demonstrated that guys seem to adapt to those details even if not perfect or ideal and look past it when in other cases, the less than ideal fit or ergonomics was a deal-breaker of the highest order.

If not already obvious, sales training was just a series of directives and suggestions based on huge generalities. Any inclination to offend, talk down to customers, or aggravate female buyers should have been a short-lived career for most men or women.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Muirenn said:


> Or even better, 'the wife.' I hate that way of referring to a woman. The cat. The dog. The wife. Yeah. Whatever. Pervasive superiority over women. That's what I see.


Sometimes my wife refers to me as 'the husband', or 'the hubby'. 
I always took it as a sort of term of endearment; little did I know what she really was getting at!

I'd call her out on it, but she just let me by a yet another dirt jump bike this weekend, so I'll probably let it slide.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

My wife found this thread pretty amusing. She politely suggested that some maybe need to tend to their own personal lives as she is doing just fine. 

Partnerships, strengths and weaknesses, different but equal, are all concepts that are lost on some. 

Oh well. Wonder what she'll tell me to get done this weekend or where exactly we are going? Either way I won't find it belittling. Lmfao.

Take care. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

Suns_PSD said:


> My wife found this thread pretty amusing. She politely suggested that some maybe need to tend to their own personal lives as she is doing just fine.
> 
> Partnerships, strengths and weaknesses, different but equal, are all concepts that are lost on some.
> 
> ...


You are the one sharing your life with her on the women's forum. And it's revealing.

And if you and or she wants us to mind our own business, then don't spend months posting frankly worrying misogynistic posts about your relationship. Or post pictures of her, for that matter.

Seems like you are on this forum to (try) to teach women how to be.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> Sometimes my wife refers to me as 'the husband', or 'the hubby'.
> I always took it as a sort of term of endearment; little did I know what she really was getting at!
> 
> I'd call her out on it, but she just let me by a yet another dirt jump bike this weekend, so I'll probably let it slide.


"The Wife" is common in vernacular. And it's misogynistic. "The Husband" or "The Hubby" is quite rare.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

Here is a point. The Women's Lounge is supposed to be a place where women can identify one another and converse about cycling. 

Its intent is not to form a place for men to come, and talk about women. The occasional man looking for a bike recommendation is nice. Using that as an excuse to objectify your relationship in public is not welcome. 

I've rarely posted here because there are few threads where women can actually talk to one another. At least recently.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Muirenn said:


> "The Wife" is common in vernacular. And it's misogynistic. "The Husband" or "The Hubby" is quite rare.


So, commonality aside, would you declare my wife a misanderist based on her using this term?

I hear my male gay married buddies refer to their husbands as 'the husband' regularly. Are they misanderists also?

I've heard female gay married friends use 'the wife' when talking about their wives. Are they misogynists?



Not trying to hassle, but I find this to be a pretty long stretch. I see this terminology being used by all sorts of people in all sorts of relationships, and I don't see that any of them mean it in any sort of derogatory way whatsoever.
My experience anyway.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Muirenn said:


> Here is a point. The Women's Lounge is supposed to be a place where women can identify one another and converse about cycling.
> 
> Its intent is not to form a place for men to come, and talk about women. The occasional man looking for a bike recommendation is nice. Using that as an excuse to objectify your relationship in public is not welcome.
> 
> I've rarely posted here because there are few threads where women can actually talk to one another. At least recently.


This might be the only thing I agree with in this thread.

I came to the women's forum to educate myself and share positive stories with the sole intention of giving my wife the best mountain bike experience possible (and it really worked!) as my wife doesn't forum nor care to learn much about the bikes themselves. However, my intention is never to take away from a place where women alone can congregate, if that was the intention of the forum.

Frankly I find some of the posters that frequent this forum highly antagonistic, commonly create made up crises, and actually rarely helpful when it comes to bikes which is what I'm here for. The drama isn't for me.

Maybe another sub-forum is appropriate where current riders can focus on advise to assist the beginner riders they care about?

Either way, I'll be leaving this forum for women only moving forward and ask any questions that I have regarding my wife's biking, in the bike focused forums.

- take care

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> So, commonality aside, would you declare my wife a misanderist based on her using this term?
> 
> I hear my male gay married buddies refer to their husbands as 'the husband' regularly. Are they misanderists also?
> 
> ...


If someone wants to be offended/upset/angry/etc. then they will find something to be offended/upset/angry/etc. about.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

btsjeff said:


> Lighten up a bit, isn't it a bit sexist that women get a Lounge, but there is no "Men's Lounge" ? Not everything is sexist and once you start playing the victim everything becomes that way to you. That's just not a good way to live. Stay Strong!


Oh, GTFO. I am serious in saying you can leave this forum or I can ensure that you leave this forum.

if you find a sexist post, please, please, please report it by hitting this (no disrespect to Chazpat or implications, just used as random sampling of avatar and user):


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## Sage of the Sage (Nov 10, 2011)

Muirenn said:


> Dude. I'm fine. And your entire attitude towards 'the wife' is one of superiority.
> 
> Now. I wasn't talking to you. I was talking about you.
> 
> ...


I like this view on things.

My wife is my wife. "The wife" just sounds so... bleh.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Maybe another sub-forum is appropriate where current riders can focus on advise to assist the beginner riders they care about?


Beginner's Forum


Suns_PSD said:


> Either way, I'll be leaving this forum for women only moving forward and ask any questions that I have regarding my wife's biking, in the bike focused forums.
> 
> - take care
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Thank you.

This is the forum for Women to talk to other women, not men to talk about their experiences with women. /former moderator of this forum.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

rockcrusher said:


> Item 1 from the forum guidelines, helpfully linked from my signature is: The message insults or degrades another member of the community.
> 
> Degradation and insult is* defined by the user. If the user states that something is insulting or degrading then it violates the #1 guideline. Simple as that *and as this is the women's forum they get to define what is degrading and insulting. Enjoy within this caveat and the content of the sticky at the top of this forum indicating that men should read that sticky prior to participating within this forum.


Thankfully, we have moderators. 
Bold highlights are mine and intended to illustrate the Fun we are having. 

Some of this "stuff" is ear of the beholder interpretation. What is said and how it's said can be the key to feeling stung, offended or aggrieved

AND can be the key to someone crying Foul, real or imagined.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

WHALENARD said:


> I'd have to agree with this. Given the thread title seems pretty obvious it would become divisive.


I did not mean to be divisive at at all, just was (and still am) genuinely curious as to how using the word 'the' rather than 'my' equals me being deemed a misogynist.

And if we're going to strive for any consistency whatsoever (I know, I know...craazy thought) isn't that a pretty offensive and insulting label to be branding strangers with based on nothing more than their choice of article?

I dunno...I remain confused. Luckily, I've had plenty of practice.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Imsho, use "the" vs "my" smacks of objectivity; a distancing.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

formica said:


> Imsho, use "the" vs "my" smacks of objectivity; a distancing.


Thank you! An actual reply! 

I personally don't find it so when I hear others use it, nor do I remotely mean it that way when I use it. As mentioned, I sometimes say 'the wife' and very often say 'the boy' when referring to my son and "the folks" or "the 'rents" when referring to my parents. That's a short list of my favorite people on the planet; there are no "-isms" or distancing involved in any way when I use 'the' rather the 'my' in those cases, and I'm willing to bet it's the same for the vast majority of others.

I do see though your point on how it could be seen as a implying some 'distancing'; I don't think most people typically communicate with that sort of level of literary precision though (I know I don't!).

Even given that, I still really don't see how a minor literary 'distancing' equates to misogyny. I can see that some people might prefer one over the other, but to equate it with sexism seems like a pretty long way to reach.

That was all I was really trying to get at.


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

FFS. It seems that some people are really having trouble with this. How about some comparisons?

Bad: "Dude, that new bike is tits". 
Good: "Dude, that new bike is rad/sick/awesome". 


Bad: "That trail has been girlfriended". 
Good: "That trail has been made easier". 


Bad: "I put my wife on a different set of tyres". 
Good: "I put different tyres on my wife's bike". 


Bad: "I let my girlfriend choose a new bike". 
Good: "My girlfriend got a new bike". 


Bad: "I gave my shitty, worn out cassette to the wife 'cause she won't know the difference, and bought myself a new one". 
Good: "I bought myself a new cassette, and I also bought my wife one because I want her to have nice stuff". 


Bad: "All my bikes are black so my wife doesn't know when I get a new one". 
Good: "I make sound financial decisions in tandem with the person I chose to spend the rest of my life with". 


Bad: "Saw some fat chicks on the trail, walking all the hard bits". 
Good: "Saw some amazing ladies out there getting after it". 


If you truly don't see what is wrong with the bad examples then maybe you need some serious self examination.

Women aren't objects to be moved around and placed. You don't permit or allow women to do things. Terms like "girlfriended", "pussified" and "tits" are offensive. Giving your **** old gear to your significant other so you can have the new shiny is selfish. Coming into the Women's Lounge and complaining that a marginalised group is being overly sensitive is not okay. We clear now? 



Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Damn girl! You go. ++++ rep.


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

You should get on with your life and worry much less how other people describe things. After the above, I'm wondering if there is anything that DOESN'T offend you.


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## slowpoker (Jun 4, 2008)

Oh My Sack! said:


> You should get on with your life and worry much less how other people describe things. After the above, I'm wondering if there is anything that DOESN'T offend you.


Rep'd


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

mahgnillig said:


> FFS. It seems that some people are really having trouble with this. How about some comparisons?
> 
> Bad: "Dude, that new bike is tits".
> Good: "Dude, that new bike is rad/sick/awesome".
> ...


Yes, almost all of your examples are bad. Your put example is debatable due to regional vernacular. In certain part of the world "I put myself on different tires" is going to be the colloquial way of saying that so that's going to carry forward and not be heard in the same light by a local. However, there wasn't a single example of *the*, pun intended, current topic of discussion listed.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Nope, not bad examples. Sorry you don't get it.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Oh My Sack! said:


> You should get on with your life and worry much less how other people describe things. After the above, I'm wondering if there is anything that DOESN'T offend you.


New book title; 
The Boy that Kicked the Hornets Nest


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Well, for better or worse, I think it has been demonstrated why the women want a "lounge" of their own. I'm not saying who is right or who is wrong, just sayin'.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Yes, almost all of your examples are bad. Your put example is debatable due to regional vernacular. In certain part of the world "I put myself on different tires" is going to be the colloquial way of saying that so that's going to carry forward and not be heard in the same light by a local. However, there wasn't a single example of *the*, pun intended, current topic of discussion listed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


in the above examples, replace "my" with "the" and there you go, something I have seen many times on this forum.

here are some searches so you can see how many times this is used:

The wife: http://www.mtbr.com/search.html?q="the+wife"&x=0&y=0 
The girlfriend: http://www.mtbr.com/search.html?q="the+girlfriend"&x=0&y=0
I'd link up Tits but it is frequently used for a ride moniker so it is a bad example.

Girlfriended (something I have never heard before but there were results): http://www.mtbr.com/search.html?q=girlfriended&x=0&y=0


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

formica said:


> Nope, not bad examples. Sorry you don't get it.


So those are good things to say? I think there is a disconnect here. I chalk it it up to a vernacular issue similar to the one I described. Frankly I'm slightly offended that you would miscategotize what I said in such a manner. She literally gave the inappropriate examples the moniker "Bad".

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I read that you cite M's examples as "bad" examples of forum misogyny. I disagree that they are poor examples; if nothing they are excellent examples of things men say that make women think they are misogynists, sexist, etc.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

formica said:


> I read that you cite M's examples as "bad" examples of forum misogyny. I disagree that they are poor examples; * if nothing they are excellent examples of things men say that make women think they are misogynists, sexist, etc.*


I don't disagree. Please look at the word she started every single one of the inappropriate examples with and please quit asserting that I said something I did not.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

What is wrong with the use of the word "bad"? I honestly don't get what the problem is.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

formica said:


> What is wrong with the use of the word "bad"? I honestly don't get what the problem is.


I did not say there was anything wrong with the use of the word bad. All of her inappropriate examples were labeled bad. I said, "yes, almost all of your examples are bad [inappropriate]." I only called out one that I disagreed with; further showing I agreed for the most part. You then tell me "I don't get it" and then later on call me a sexist misogynist in an implied, roundabout manner. Of course I'm going to take issue with you miscategotizing what I said in that manner.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## slowpoker (Jun 4, 2008)

Time out? Wow


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

formica said:


> Nope, not bad examples. Sorry you don't get it.


Repped...or it would be, if she weren't maxed out.

Guys, your sexism is so ingrained as a basic part of your values that you can't see you think blatant objectification is okay. It's not. It's just common.

Done.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

Parting thought. A lot of men have posted here. But the predominant attitude is one of self-justification. 

If you don't believe this is valid, why post at all? This was a post on a women's sub forum, addressing other women. Why even get involved? 

Here is a fact. Women put up with a lot of mysogeny in their lives. Even and especially from their SO's. They justify it to make their lives livable. Look hard in the mirror. We on this forum are no different.


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## BeDrinkable (Sep 22, 2008)

Goodness, this has gotten bizarre. Look, it seems pretty simple to me. If a person (or group of people) tell you that something bothers them, why not stop doing it? Why begin arguing with them? What is the goal?



tuckerjt07 said:


> If someone wants to be offended/upset/angry/etc. then they will find something to be offended/upset/angry/etc. about.


I just picked this one out because it is one of my favorite internet arguments. If YOU are bothered by something, it's valid. If someone ELSE is bothered by something, it's because they chose to be. People have different experiences than you and that doesn't make them less valid. Accusing them of making up their feelings doesn't encourage connection, it distances us from each other.

The women here have been trying to tell us something, maybe we should listen.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

I would like to thank rockcrusher (administrator) for deleting some trolling posts while I've been busy most of today. Opinions vary but I think it is the most effective way to deal with people that just want attention/to get a rise out of you. Thanks for the help in the WL. I would also encourage any women or allies impacted by the trolls to consider making an unrelated countering positive post, photo, or query in the WL to help build our community.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

chazpat said:


> Well, for better or worse, I think it has been demonstrated why the women want a "lounge" of their own. I'm not saying who is right or who is wrong, just sayin'.


The title of the thread really did generate some interest.

I'm one to rise to the bait and see what's being said, get some baseline of where things are at these days and not doubt that many things said, written or overheard by anyone can be wrong, offensive, insensitive, racial or sexist.

Got my bearings now.


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