# Ebike or Not?



## Fixer24 (Jul 28, 2021)

Hello all, I’m new to mtn biking and the forum, but I’ve recently started riding local trails with friends and wondering why I never got into this earlier! Anyway, we want to start visiting bike parks in our area but I’m interested in possibly purchasing a full suspension bike. I currently have a Cujo Neo ebike hard tail that I’m having a lot of fun on but after riding my friends bike I’m wondering about getting a full suspension bike. But my question to you guys is should I go ebike or non ebike? Looking at probably a Scott Genius eride 920, or a Santa Cruz Bronson and I’d be using the bike mostly in the parks. 
Any help would be appreciated!


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## toyotatacomaTRD (Apr 4, 2012)

The question is simple. Do you want to build up your ability and fitness, or do you just want to buy ability off the shelf and not get the fitness benefit most of us starting riding for?


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## Fixer24 (Jul 28, 2021)

toyotatacomaTRD said:


> The question is simple. Do you want to build up your ability and fitness, or do you just want to buy ability off the shelf and not get the fitness benefit most of us starting riding for?


Fitness is definitely one of the reasons I wanted to get into it and it at or near the top, along with also improving my skills


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## toyotatacomaTRD (Apr 4, 2012)

You can get a lot more bike for a lot less money without a motor. Plus the motor is going to create tons of problems as you ride it. From water intrusion, vibration, battery degradation, etc. They're harder on chains and drivetrain parts. Sourcing parts are expensive. Technology changes leaving you with a 45lb heap of hard to resale junk after 3 years (if it's still working). But you'll hear lots of people on here talk about how great they are. Definitely not for me. Pedalling my way up is the fun part.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

Ebikes are alot of fun. Regular bikes are fun but also quite the fitness challenge. Personally if I was looking for a 1 bike solution it wouldn't be an ebike.


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## kevine1785 (Mar 29, 2021)

If you already have an eBike I would highly recommend a traditional human-powered bike. This would be for several reasons:
1 - Less expensive (especially if you are jumping it at a park)
2 - Fitness
3 - If you are riding at a park you will have limited need for the motor as the chairlifts will take you up the hard parts
4 - There is this idea that harder, more technical stuff requires a level of fitness and skill to ride safely, using the assistance of an e-bike makes this terrain easier to get to for less experienced riders and can lead to greater falls, and chance of injury
5 - Many trails still restrict e-bike usage, you will have a bike that can go anywhere


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## Fixer24 (Jul 28, 2021)

Thanks a lot guys for your responses, really appreciated! Yeah I was kinda leaning toward the regular bike since I already have an ebike and I’d rather not sell my Cujo cause I really like it. Also can get better pricing in the Santa Cruz. My thoughts are I can use the ebike when I am not wanting to kill myself but just want to enjoy the fresh air and an easy ride. It’s a lot of money to spend on a bike though haha


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## blueglide (Apr 23, 2020)

Ride/demo some different bikes if possible and decide what you like. This question has two opposing sides to it and is like asking which political party you like. You hear alot of nonsense from both sides. I've had both an ebike and a regular mtb and I know what I like.


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## kevine1785 (Mar 29, 2021)

Fixer24 said:


> Thanks a lot guys for your responses, really appreciated! Yeah I was kinda leaning toward the regular bike since I already have an ebike and I'd rather not sell my Cujo cause I really like it. Also can get better pricing in the Santa Cruz. My thoughts are I can use the ebike when I am not wanting to kill myself but just want to enjoy the fresh air and an easy ride. It's a lot of money to spend on a bike though haha


If its been a while since you have ridden a traditional bike on trails prepare yourself for the extra work. You dont want to have buyers remorse, as long as you understand it'll be a lot harder and you will be moving a lot slower (on the up-hills).


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## jlf.ski.bike.sail (May 5, 2006)

do you have local trails you are allowed to ride an ebike on? if so, then get an ebike. It's easy to fall into a habit of letting an ebike do all the work and not get fit. but if you push yourself you can get very fit on an ebike. I found that my upper body got stronger and i maintained my uphill pedaling fitness. however my "natural" cadence increased. and my low end torque probably got weaker.


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## Fixer24 (Jul 28, 2021)

Yeah we do have local trails that allow ebikes. Do some of the parks not allow ebikes though? To me that would be a giant problem?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Fixer24 said:


> Yeah we do have local trails that allow ebikes. Do some of the parks not allow ebikes though? To me that would be a giant problem?


Most public land in the US does not allow ebikes.


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

If you have no health issues and you want to get fit, why get an e bike? There is the whole arms war thing I see with lots of riding groups here. One guy will get an e bike to "keep" up with the group, but then everyone else gets one so they now can too. I'm not anti e bike, but I'm holding off on it as long as I can. I find it a little bit of a bummer that there are days on the trail here now when e bikes now outnumber regular bikes I see. Kinda weird when I passed a family hiking down a trail as i was going up, and the mom commented, yay, you're on a "me" bike! That it was the unusual and worthy of comment now, as opposed to the other way around.


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## Fixer24 (Jul 28, 2021)

Thanks for all the comments! After doing a bit of searching on the parks in our region, ebikes seem to have a significant amount of restrictions. Think I’m going to go with the regular bike and still keep my ebike hard tail


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## lone_tree (Jan 22, 2015)

People need to stop harping on the fitness non-benefit of ebikes. I don't own one but the couple of times I've ridden/rented them, I have as good or a better workout with the ebike compared to my regular bike. Not everyone _will_ but everyone _can_ get the same workout on an ebike. For me, it will generally be the same or better workout because I will ride farther in the same amount of time and I'll have more fun doing it (uphill, at least).

For me the decision comes down to price and ride quality. As others have mentioned, you can get much more bike for your money without the motor. If I want the ebike version of my current bike it's $3500+ more.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

I don't see how you are getting the same kind of ride on an ebike unless you are using it in low power or turning off the motor, to which I would say what is the point. A regular bike is much tougher, and there is no easy switch. You pedal that thing until you get where you're going, pain be damned.

Not to say you won't get a workout, because you need to pedal and all that, and maybe you go further. I am not disparaging ebikes, I use them for commuting precisely because they are easier/faster and I don't work up a big sweat.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Taroroot said:


> If you have no health issues and you want to get fit, why get an e bike?


Because it's more fun. And if something's fun, you are more likely to do it even on those unmotivated days.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

dundundata said:


> I don't see how you are getting the same kind of ride on an ebike unless you are using it in low power or turning off the motor, to which I would say what is the point. A regular bike is much tougher, and there is no easy switch. You pedal that thing until you get where you're going, pain be damned.
> 
> Not to say you won't get a workout, because you need to pedal and all that, and maybe you go further. I am not disparaging ebikes, I use them for commuting precisely because they are easier/faster and I don't work up a big sweat.


It's a different type of workout, because of the extra weight. Descending 10k feet and doing 50 miles in a ride is not easy. Your cardio won't spike as much, and your legs won't give out nearly as early on an ebike, but the overall fitness used is still there. And at least for me and most my friends that can be proven with a power meter and heart rate monitor. One common trend on ebikes you see is over the course of an hour long climb, your heart rate is way more consistent at a normal pace (around 160ish for me). But on a normal bike your heart rate will spike and fall, which can lead to a more unhealthy workout.


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## Noplacelikeloam (Mar 2, 2021)

lone_tree said:


> People need to stop harping on the fitness non-benefit of ebikes. I don't own one but the couple of times I've ridden/rented them, I have as good or a better workout with the ebike compared to my regular bike. Not everyone _will_ but everyone _can_ get the same workout on an ebike. For me, it will generally be the same or better workout because I will ride farther in the same amount of time and I'll have more fun doing it (uphill, at least).
> 
> For me the decision comes down to price and ride quality. As others have mentioned, you can get much more bike for your money without the motor. If I want the ebike version of my current bike it's $3500+ more.


Because it's not the same at all. Short of turning off the motor or running in eco, I fail to see how you are going anaerobic for the same length of time. I ride both an ebike and a regular bike and have tracked HR, PRE, HRV, OBLA etc etc. They are nowhere near close at all. An ebike can give you a good zone 2 endurance workout, of course, and inline with a regular bike, and they are amazing for that, especially active recovery days, but thats a limited view of fitness develpment IMHO (was a coach and PT for many years).


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

Meh...I got into mountain biking for the fun. To me the fitness is a side benefit that I do appreciate, but I'm no Nazi fitness freak. I got into emtb's for the same reason. On this issue of lack of fitness returns and emtb's, I sometimes think that people who have never ridden dirt motors seriously are the ones making this claim. You are not sitting on a pillow watching the scenery go by on either an emtb or dirt motor...at least not if you're pushing the envelope a bit. There's a surprising bit of bigotry and ignorance when it comes to pedal-only and emtb. I recommend you try both and see what fits you.

As some have already suggested, however, make sure you'll have some place to ride an emtb. While not an issue in my area, some places have a fair number of nannies and know-it-all's who restrict emtbs on trails. Good luck with your search.


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## G-Choro (Jul 30, 2010)

Where do you live? That would be a significant factor. I'm in Michigan, and they aren't allowed anywhere I ride. However, I just got back from Northern Utah and e-bikes were everywhere.


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## Fixer24 (Jul 28, 2021)

G-Choro said:


> Where do you live? That would be a significant factor. I'm in Michigan, and they aren't allowed anywhere I ride. However, I just got back from Northern Utah and e-bikes were everywhere.


I live out west, we would be mostly riding in Utah parks. I went into their websites and looks to be some issues with using an ebike at the parks. Around where we live ebikes have been no problem so far though


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## jyalpert (Jan 20, 2021)

RBoardman said:


> But on a normal bike your heart rate will spike and fall, which can lead to a more unhealthy workout.


Huh?


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Classic ebike hate, they are gonna burn down our forests! lol


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Or look to see what forum your in before posting your ebike opinions?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

You'll see in these posts there are advocates and haters. I love e-MTB, but ride MTB three times a week to one or two "e" rides. My advice is to ride what your friends are using. If you ride an e-MTB and they're on MTB, you won't have much fun because they won't be able to keep up with you ascending (probably) and vice versa. For me, they are equally a blast.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

I haven't done any e-mountain biking so maybe it's a different experience in terms of fitness compared to my street riding.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Threads about ebikes tend to happen in the ebike forum. Besides the OP already has an ebike he wasn't asking for a self righteous opinion on them but if he should buy one for riding at a bike park I believe.


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## blueglide (Apr 23, 2020)

The amount of 'internet expert stoopid' in these threads is entertaining and they are always the same arguments.


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## Silent Drone (Jun 7, 2013)

I’m in a similar position as OP, I’m looking for a new bike and trying to decide if it should be an e-mtb or traditional. Currently I ride an old school geo hardtail. I want something full suspension. I’ve demo’d the Orbea Rise and Yeti SB130. Future demo rides will be the IBIS Ripley and Ripmo, and something from Santa Cruz. 

I liked the Rise a lot and might get one. But one of the concerns I have about it is that the technology might become outdated fairly quickly. It’s electronics and batteries are the kind of things that evolve quickly and I fully expect there will be something more innovative out from competitors in a year or two. That’s great for the clumsiness. Not great for me as I’d like this bike to be fresh for at least 5 years. 

Regarding the workout, I did get a decent workout on the Rise, but it was not nearly as intense as the workout I got on the SB130 on the same course. I think that’s a “feature” or a bug, depending on what you want to achieve. To each his own on that point. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fixer24 (Jul 28, 2021)

Thanks guys for the replies and riveting discussion. I went ahead and ordered the Bronson today, pretty pumped to get it out in the trails!


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## ryanmj (Aug 19, 2014)

Get the Bronson


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

toyotatacomaTRD said:


> Do you want to build up your ability and fitness, or do you just want to buy ability off the shelf and not get the fitness benefit most of us starting riding for?


Buy ability off the shelf? Tell us you never rode an ebike without telling us you never rode an ebike


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Fixer24 said:


> Thanks guys for the replies and riveting discussion. I went ahead and ordered the Bronson today, pretty pumped to get it out in the trails!


When you say you ordered a Bronson, please elaborate. What build and what lead-time? Just curious because new SC bikes are hard to find these days in this part of the world. Did you even consider the Heckler MX? They both are mullet bikes.


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## Fixer24 (Jul 28, 2021)

Jack7782 said:


> When you say you ordered a Bronson, please elaborate. What build and what lead-time? Just curious because new SC bikes are hard to find these days in this part of the world. Did you even consider the Heckler MX? They both are mullet bikes.


I ordered the Bronson CR and yeah it was hard to find my size and the model I wanted. He said it would ship by next week.








Bronson C R


You know what’s hard about choosing what model of Santa Cruz suits you? It’s having to narrow down what kind of riding you want to do. But what if you don’t want to be pinned down by labels? What if you want to just be a mountain biker in the broadest sense of the word? What if you want to...




mikesbikes.com


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

Why would I be embarrassed? Ebikes are fun as ****. Now, visiting an ebike forum to repeat the same old boring insults, that's kinda embarrassing


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Professed said:


> Classic rubbish e-biker talk. High intensity is unhealthy? Wtf?


You're right, I do have no idea what I'm talking about. This was just a statement that could have been taken out of context, but came from a nurse I regularly ride with who struggled with Afib and believes high exertions on mtb rides trigger it for him more than once.

"Atrial fibrillation is an irregular and often rapid heart rate that can increase your risk of strokes, heart failure and other heart-related complications.

During atrial fibrillation, the heart's two upper chambers (the atria) beat chaotically and irregularly - out of coordination with the two lower chambers (the ventricles) of the heart. Atrial fibrillation symptoms often include heart palpitations, shortness of breath and weakness."


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

bjcccat said:


> If it has a motor, it is not a mountain bike&#8230;
> 
> If you want to get into mountain biking, buy a mountain bike&#8230;
> 
> ...


I prefer ebike kook, electric motorist, or simply cheater. Please feel free to shout this out as I pass you on the trails with a big smile on my face having way more fun than you.


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## Ilovedoods (Jun 22, 2020)

eMTB if you can afford a proper one. If not, the v3 and v4? SC Bronson are fun, versatile bikes. I like the “mullet” configuration. The Gen 3 Levo Pro is an awesome eMTB, as is the Trek Rail, if you have the $$$. It’s all relative, right?


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Fixer24 said:


> Hello all, I'm new to mtn biking and the forum, but I've recently started riding local trails with friends and wondering why I never got into this earlier! Anyway, we want to start visiting bike parks in our area but I'm interested in possibly purchasing a full suspension bike. I currently have a Cujo Neo ebike hard tail that I'm having a lot of fun on but after riding my friends bike I'm wondering about getting a full suspension bike. But my question to you guys is should I go ebike or non ebike? Looking at probably a Scott Genius eride 920, or a Santa Cruz Bronson and I'd be using the bike mostly in the parks.
> Any help would be appreciated!


Why would you need an ebike riding park? Unless you have to pedal up on your on, in which case an ebike would obviously make sense, there's no reason to get one. It'll be 20lbs and you're going downhill.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Fixer24 said:


> Yeah we do have local trails that allow ebikes. Do some of the parks not allow ebikes though? To me that would be a giant problem?


Where do you live so we know what bike park(s)?


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

toyotatacomaTRD said:


> As often as they catch on fire, it's only a matter of time before the place I ride goes up in flames because someone likes being "outdoorsy" but doesn't like climbing.


That's a pretty crap comment.
The riders smoking a joint are more likely to cause a forest fire than a bicycle rider actually riding a bike.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

TNC said:


> Meh...I got into mountain biking for the fun. To me the fitness is a side benefit that I do appreciate, but I'm no Nazi fitness freak. I got into emtb's for the same reason. On this issue of lack of fitness returns and emtb's, I sometimes think that people who have never ridden dirt motors seriously are the ones making this claim. You are not sitting on a pillow watching the scenery go by on either an emtb or dirt motor...at least not if you're pushing the envelope a bit. There's a surprising bit of bigotry and ignorance when it comes to pedal-only and emtb. I recommend you try both and see what fits you.
> 
> As some have already suggested, however, make sure you'll have some place to ride an emtb. While not an issue in my area, some places have a fair number of nannies and know-it-all's who restrict emtbs on trails. Good luck with your search.


Same thing with bike parks ... I talk up Mountain Creek Bike Park to anyone that'll listen, so I end up taking a lot of my buddies for the first time. One thing they all say, is how much of a workout going downhill could be. We're in our late 30s early 40s so don't bounce back like we did 20 years ago. The next day our arms, legs and especially midsection are all pretty sore.

And I agree with you. If your going after fun, get whatever bike will get you the most of it, and ignore the critics. If you want fitness go that route, and if you're like me and the majority of riders, you're looking for a combination of the two, so get whatever bike does that best.

If I commuted on my bike or lived near a ride-up only bike park, then yeah, I'd be all about it, but the parks I visit all have lifts, and the climbs aren't too difficult here in PA, so it obviously makes sense to get a regular bike ... And if someone asks for my opinion, I'll give it, but I can honestly care less what other people are riding and what kinda fitness they're getting. If it means they're riding a bike instead of sitting in front of the TV, I'm all for it!


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Sharing this 1:30 video explaining why E-Bikes are becoming so popular.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

bjcccat said:


> If it has a motor, it is not a mountain bike&#8230;
> 
> If you want to get into mountain biking, buy a mountain bike&#8230;
> 
> ...


I am a pretty accomplished mountain bike rider.
But you're saying that if I were to add a 4th bike to my garage, an e-bike, I would no longer be a 'rider' and am now forbidden from returning to my truck because I have to go down a hill to get there?

When you visit a 10 story building, do you take the fire exit just because the elevator is for losers?


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Ebikes are training wheels for adults. You can enjoy them if you want, but they do half (if not more) of the work for you.
> 
> Pedaling a regular bike uphill takes fitness. Ebikes really don't.


I have gears on my bicycle. Sorry to be such a disappointment.


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## Fixer24 (Jul 28, 2021)

E


2021Mach6 said:


> Where do you live so we know what bike park(s)?


LOL what do you mean, are you trying to avoid me? I mean, I'll be going slow so if you can stay off the easy trails and keep an eye out in front of you then you should be fine


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Forest Rider said:


> I have gears on my bicycle. Sorry to be such a disappointment.


How dare you...


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> How dare you...


lol, coming from singlespeedsteven that means alot


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

bjcccat said:


> E-Bike riders (not sure rider is the best term) should be forbidden from descending on mountain bike trails, as those descents should be reserved for those who earn them!
> 
> These comments are only aimed at able-bodied individuals&#8230;


...and shuttlers? Should they be forbidden from descending?

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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

OP, I think you did the right thing with the Bronson if you're friends are riding MTB. This thread (if history is an indication) will proceed speedily until it is ended mercifully by the mod. This type of question brings the creeps out from under their rocks and they beat their chests and say they earned the right to go downhill. My wife and I had a great 1500' downhill run tonight on MTB, but it would have been just as rewarding and fun on "e'.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

maynard4130 said:


> This is the best answer I've read. I LOATHE e-bikes. The beauty and simplicity of a bike it that it's HUMAN POWERED! Deep down inside you know this is true. Most of the guys at my work mountain bikebsingle speed here in Colorado now and are in crazy good shape. The 2 fattest laziest guys just said they wanted to get into it as well. Well, they went out and bought......e-bikes! They are now bragging they are going to chase me down. Let's be honest.....the only thing they're chasing is diabetes.


Did it at least get them off the couch though?

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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

waltaz said:


> ...and shuttlers? Should they be forbidden from descending?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They should only be allowed to reverse shuttle.

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## mctrials23 (Feb 27, 2021)

My biggest fear with an ebike is having a really expensive bike that no longer cuts the mustard after a few years. If they weren't astronomically expensive or I was much wealthier that wouldn't be an issue but they are and I am not. 

I don't really see the point of a full fat e-bike simply because I don't want something that heavy which has that heft due to being unnecessarily overpowered for someone who isn't a slug. Bikes like the Orbea Rise are where I think most ebikes are heading and I think thats probably where I would dip my toes in. Currently though I am mid thirties and fit and healthy and enjoy the fitness aspect of cycling so ones probably a few years away still.

Honestly the only thing that annoys me about them is when I see young kids on them who should be fit enough to ride all day anyway (bah humbug) and when fat ebikers try to explain that its just as much of a workout as a normal bike as they casually zoom past me on the climbs without so much as a bead of sweat upon their brow. At least own your laziness.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Noplacelikeloam said:


> Because it's not the same at all. Short of turning off the motor or running in eco, I fail to see how you are going anaerobic for the same length of time. I ride both an ebike and a regular bike and have tracked HR, PRE, HRV, OBLA etc etc. They are nowhere near close at all. *An ebike can give you a good zone 2 endurance workout, *of course, and inline with a regular bike, and they are amazing for that, especially active recovery days, but thats a limited view of fitness develpment IMHO (was a coach and PT for many years).


That's weird. When I ride my ebike, my Polar H10 monitor shows me blowing past zone 2 *AND* 3 after about 3 minutes of just about all of my rides. In a normal 3 hour ride for me on my eMTB, I'm in zone 4 for about 95% of the ride, zone 5 for about 4% of the ride, and zones 2-3 for about 1% of the ride.

I guess maybe it all just depends on how you want to ride the bike. If you want to put it in boost mode, stay in a low gear, and just cruise around the trail without much effort, I guess maybe you wouldn't get a good workout. I wouldn't know, as just cruising on anything with two wheels isn't much fun for me.

I keep the ebike in basic and/or trail mode and pretty much pedal as hard and fast as I can. I tend to do the same with a regular bike too (cause faster is more fun), which usually results in spikes to my max HR and requiring a rest stop. I'm getting better at pacing myself on the regular bike though.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

I'm fortunate to have two really nice bikes. If I had to pick just one, it would be the non-motorized SJ.

I'm sure you'll enjoy the Bronson.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

toyotatacomaTRD said:


> As often as they catch on fire, it's only a matter of time before the place I ride goes up in flames because someone likes being "outdoorsy" but doesn't like climbing.


You seem to enjoy perpetuating every anti-eMTB myth there is - that they don't allow you to get fit, that they catch fire, that they kill babies. #fakenews


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Taroroot said:


> If you have no health issues and you want to get fit, why get an e bike? There is the whole arms war thing I see with lots of riding groups here. One guy will get an e bike to "keep" up with the group, but then everyone else gets one so they now can too. I'm not anti e bike, but I'm holding off on it as long as I can. I find it a little bit of a bummer that there are days on the trail here now when e bikes now outnumber regular bikes I see. Kinda weird when I passed a family hiking down a trail as i was going up, and the mom commented, yay, you're on a "me" bike! That it was the unusual and worthy of comment now, as opposed to the other way around.


Because sessioning fun enduro segments twice as much is twice as fun. Because flow on uphill trails is fun. Because you can ride technical terrain that would be nearly impossible on a regular MTB. Lots of reasons. It's just another bike in the quiver.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

MX9799 said:


> That's weird. When I ride my ebike, my Polar H10 monitor shows me blowing past zone 2 *AND* 3 after about 3 minutes of just about all of my rides. In a normal 3 hour ride for me on my eMTB, I'm in zone 4 for about 95% of the ride, zone 5 for about 4% of the ride, and zones 2-3 for about 1% of the ride.
> 
> I guess maybe it all just depends on how you want to ride the bike. If you want to put it in boost mode, stay in a low gear, and just cruise around the trail without much effort, I guess maybe you wouldn't get a good workout. I wouldn't know, as just cruising on anything with two wheels isn't much fun for me.
> 
> I keep the ebike in basic and/or trail mode and pretty much pedal as hard and fast as I can. I tend to do the same with a regular bike too (cause faster is more fun), which usually results in spikes to my max HR and requiring a rest stop. I'm getting better at pacing myself on the regular bike though.


On my Orbea Rise, I choose my suffering level. I've done an eMTB race on my Shuttle during which my HR was as pegged as when I do a cyclocross race, but for longer. It's 100% up to what you want to get out of it. I'll ride my "regular" bike(s) (MTB and gravel) for about 60-80% of my miles, but the eMTB is awesome for days when I want to ride some of the more fun and tech downhills repeatedly. It's like having your own bike park lift!


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## TRP (Mar 21, 2021)

MX9799 said:


> That's weird. When I ride my ebike, my Polar H10 monitor shows me blowing past zone 2 *AND* 3 after about 3 minutes of just about all of my rides. In a normal 3 hour ride for me on my eMTB, I'm in zone 4 for about 95% of the ride, zone 5 for about 4% of the ride, and zones 2-3 for about 1% of the ride.
> 
> I guess maybe it all just depends on how you want to ride the bike. If you want to put it in boost mode, stay in a low gear, and just cruise around the trail without much effort, I guess maybe you wouldn't get a good workout. I wouldn't know, as just cruising on anything with two wheels isn't much fun for me.
> 
> I keep the ebike in basic and/or trail mode and pretty much pedal as hard and fast as I can. I tend to do the same with a regular bike too (cause faster is more fun), which usually results in spikes to my max HR and requiring a rest stop. I'm getting better at pacing myself on the regular bike though.


I have similar results. My typical after work ride on my ebike I'm 19% zone 3, 43% zone 4 and 23% zone 5. I ride it mostly in eco. Can I turn up the motor and make a ridiculously steep section easy, yes, and that's the beauty of the ebike.

My unscientific waterski meter this summer tells me I'm in better shape than I was when I was lifting weights at the gym and running.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

waltaz said:


> ...and shuttlers? Should they be forbidden from descending?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They get a free pass, because they are considered the " brahs of the sport" You know, cooler than everyone else!


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

RickBullottaPA said:


> On my Orbea Rise, I choose my suffering level. I've done an eMTB race on my Shuttle during which my HR was as pegged as when I do a cyclocross race, but for longer. It's 100% up to what you want to get out of it. I'll ride my "regular" bike(s) (MTB and gravel) for about 60-80% of my miles, but the eMTB is awesome for days when I want to ride some of the more fun and tech downhills repeatedly. It's like having your own bike park lift!


I really just don't understand why people think you can't a workout on an ebike. If you think about it, it's a pretty simple concept. If you want to get a workout, just pedal as hard as you can. It doesn't even matter what power mode you're on. There have been times where I want to ride but there's only 30 minutes of good light left outside after I get my kids to bed. In those times, I've put my emtb in boost mode and just sprinted my trails for 30 minutes as hard as I can go. Those were some pretty good short, intense workouts in zone 5 for a large majority of the ride. I was pretty dang beat when I was done. The rides were also really fun at some pretty high speeds for my trails.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

So many internet hardos.
Probably the same clueless dorks who think riding an MX bike is for 'lazy' people too.

Nobody gives a **** about your stupid VO2 threshold but you, and maybe some of your tri-geek/Cross-Fit friends.
What kind of moron actually thinks that riding around in the woods on a kid's toy somehow makes them superior to other people?
Some of you clowns need a serious ego check. Worry about your own selves. Go count grams and daydream about how great an exerciser you are or something.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Fixer24 said:


> Thanks guys for the replies and riveting discussion. I went ahead and ordered the Bronson today, pretty pumped to get it out in the trails!


Excellent choice.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

toyotatacomaTRD said:


> The question is simple. Do you want to build up your ability and fitness, or do you just want to buy ability off the shelf and not get the fitness benefit most of us starting riding for?


Not true. Your climbing ability in steep technical rocky singletrack week definitely improve once you're on a e bike and it will transfer to your regular mountain bike, because you'll be able to see lines that you didn't veggie and you gain confidence.

And your fitness will improve, at least, because now I'm riding 12+hours a week instead of 8.

And the down skills will improve, simply because your riding twice the downhill.

You know how racers train on the road, well you can do this now on your e bike a couple of days a week, because you can control the effort, so you can have the long, slow long distance ride that you cannot get on a regular mountain bike.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

If your car is not fueled by fossile/electric/propane/etc you should not own an Ebike.
If your car is in that category . . . you should not own a car.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

E-bikes do in fact burn on occasion, which is a legitimate reason (in addition to not being solely human powered) for them to not be allowed on forested trails.

Electric Bike Explodes, Leaving Father and Daughter in Critical Condition (newsweek.com)


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Because sessioning fun enduro segments twice as much is twice as fun. Because flow on uphill trails is fun. Because you can ride technical terrain that would be nearly impossible on a regular MTB. Lots of reasons. It's just another bike in the quiver.


THIS! ^^^^ I love both my bikes.... The Ebike is great for my local bike park @ridekanuga. This place is ebike specific and is located in Western North Carolina. I can get 10 laps on my ebike and 4 at best on the analog bike. I ride the rest of Pisgah and Dupont on my Giant Trance 29,but the Intense Tazer is used at Kanuga to get as many downhill laps as I can. As stated above,"just another bike in the quiver".


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## toyotatacomaTRD (Apr 4, 2012)

Guys, he bought a regular bike.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Ebikes are training wheels for adults.


Bicycles are tricycles for adults.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

I live in France 4 months a year, and on the technical single track i ride, 90 plus percent of all riders are on e bikes including all the hot, fit, skilled young riders(not me).

And if you ask someone, they will say, why not? 

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> E-bikes do in fact burn on occasion, which is a legitimate reason (in addition to not being solely human powered) for them to not be allowed on forested trails.
> 
> Electric Bike Explodes, Leaving Father and Daughter in Critical Condition (newsweek.com)


So do cell phones. 
How many hardos would support a ban on those in the forest? 
How would they be able to rub one out over their Strava results after a ride?


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

So much poppycock in this thread. If you don't want one, fine, don't get one. But the BS about it not being a workout, etc is rubbish. I have 4 "mountain bikes" and one e-bike, an Orbea Rise. I have Cat 1 fitness (for a 61-yr-old) and LOVE to ride my e-bike when I'm in the mountains. It allows me to ride every day without getting too spent and makes descending more fun on trails where it's a freaking grind just to get to the top. I have more energy to enjoy the downhill part and feel safer to boot not being so tired. You can still go Zone 4-5 on an e-bike on the climbs, you'll just get there faster and you can cover more ground at the same intensity. But mine is a lower-powered, light one that rides more like a non-motorized bike.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

bjcccat said:


> as those descents should be reserved for those who earn them!


Quick tell all those getting off the lifts at Whistler etc... to turn around and head back down because they haven't "earned their turn"!


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Suns_PSD said:


> E-bikes do in fact burn on occasion, which is a legitimate reason (in addition to not being solely human powered) for them to not be allowed on forested trails.
> 
> Electric Bike Explodes, Leaving Father and Daughter in Critical Condition (newsweek.com)


So you are against cars because they are related to humans deaths.
So you are against humans being on earth because they cause forests fires.
Where should we all move to?
How soon?


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> So do cell phones.
> How many hardos would support a ban on those in the forest?
> How would they be able to rub one out over their Strava results after a ride?


Might as well outlaw cooking too. Stoves and grills can cause fires...


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Drought, lightning and idiots in the forest cause fires, not ebikes

eMTB's are just the evolution of MB's, just like other tech has made them more enjoyable and way better over the years, as well as easier. Try riding a fully rigid steel MB with road bike geometry, crappy brakes and 2.0 tires that flat every other mile, you young bucks are spoiled wuss's on your fancy enduro cush machines


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> E-bikes do in fact burn on occasion, which is a legitimate reason (in addition to not being solely human powered) for them to not be allowed on forested trails.
> 
> Electric Bike Explodes, Leaving Father and Daughter in Critical Condition (newsweek.com)


Douchebags smoking and pedal strikes cause fires too. So let's ban pedals and douchebags from the trails.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chiefsilverback said:


> Quick tell all those getting off the lifts at Whistler etc... to turn around and head back down because they haven't "earned their turn"!


Don't forget to get out there in the winter too and let all the skiers and snowboarders know they don't deserve to be up there either.
Should put together a world-wide hardo coalition and try to shame chairlifts out of existence.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

I second what everyone has said about e-bikes and fitness. I have Cat 2 MTB fitness (for a 57-year old), and do marathon and 12/24-hour solo events on my Yeti SB115 (oh, and my Ti SS). But I also have an Orbea Rise (M-Team), and have boatloads on FUN on that, in addition to pegging whatever sort of HR/power workout I want (or don't want that day). And it's making me a better technical rider, because I can do laps and session downhill enduro segments!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

MX9799 said:


> Might as well outlaw cooking too. Stoves and grills can cause fires...


In fairness they do restrict what sort of stoves can be used in certain areas due to fire risk...


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> You guys are really reaching.
> 
> For real, the batteries on mountain bikes can catch on fire (or even explode) and create fires that are pretty challenging to put out as it's a chemical fire.
> 
> ...


I'm unaware of a single "name brand" eMTB catching fire. And if it has happened, I suspect it did not happen on the trail but rather when charging at home.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Tickle said:


> eMTB's are just the evolution of MB's, just like other tech has made them more enjoyable and way better over the years, as well as easier.


While I have nothing against e-bikes, they are a distinct and separate class of vehicles from mountain bikes. 
Having a motor clearly does make them something different. 
The e-bike industry's (and many users) attempts to obfuscate that line is silly.
If everyone would stop pretending that an e-bike is the same as a mountain bike and instead constitutes a new and distinct user group, things would be much better.
Dunno why it's so hard for many e-bike proponents to accept the obvious.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> Look, e-bikes are a blast, I totally get it. But you have to draw the line somewhere on the trails and human powered is that line for most people, for good reason.


Unless you are a land manager, it's not your line to draw.


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## 155K98 (Jul 10, 2020)

The exercise point is total rubbish. 

Nothing and absolutely nothing prevents rider to put same output wattage on e-bike that you do on normal bike. It's either the distance or speed that increases. Quite often speed is the key to fun. With ebike you face much quicker the limits of your riding skills that you would maybe never do with normal mountainbike.

It sounds a bit amish that you should earn your rides by suffering.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

slapheadmofo said:


> While I have nothing against e-bikes, they are a distinct and separate class of vehicles from mountain bikes.
> Having a motor clearly does make them something different.


Assuming a class 1 or 3 e-bike that will only 'go' if the rider is pedaling, why are they different. You can just go further/faster for the same effort. Class 2 I would agree with you, if you can sit on the saddle, press a button and move without pedaling then that's not a bicycle, that's a motorbike.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

chiefsilverback said:


> Assuming a class 1 or 3 e-bike that will only 'go' if the rider is pedaling, why are they different. You can just go further/faster for the same effort. Class 2 I would agree with you, if you can sit on the saddle, press a button and move without pedaling then that's not a bicycle, that's a motorbike.


I would prefer to see limits on eMTB wattage/assist speed limits on multiuse trails though. Class 1 only.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chiefsilverback said:


> Assuming a class 1 or 3 e-bike that will only 'go' if the rider is pedaling, why are they different. You can just go further/faster for the same effort. Class 2 I would agree with you, if you can sit on the saddle, press a button and move without pedaling then that's not a bicycle, that's a motorbike.


Because of the motor, obviously.
Method of throttle actuation doesn't make it disappear.

Again, I have nothing against them, but pretending they are not motorized and expecting everyone else to do the same while we are all looking at the motor makes proponents look and sound ridiculous.

What's wrong with simply dealing with the obvious reality? 
Motor deniers are just as silly as MTB hardos. Hell, maybe sillier.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I kinda agree, but lumping class 1 pedal assist bikes in with moto's is just as silly


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)




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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

Having been a bicyclist for decades and working at a bike shop for many years, the infantile, biased, and narrow mindedness of many bicyclists still never ceases to amaze me. However, I still can't recall it being this bad on MTBR when I first got on this site quite a few years ago. Maybe this is reflective of how the U.S. society is now as a whole. If you're not in my camp, you are "the enemy". Some of the responses here sound like the rantings of a petulant teenager. But then I look at similar nonsense from many of our politicians in their 70's and 80's and realize it is just endemic in our population. Great nations and societies really do die from the inside out.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

the internets be's a double edged sword


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Tickle said:


> I kinda agree, but lumping class 1 pedal assist bikes in with moto's is just as silly


For sure. 
They aren't motocross bikes just like they aren't bicycles. They're e-bikes.
Pretty simple one would think.


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## 155K98 (Jul 10, 2020)

I wonder what is the fear behind all this "you can't ride the same trails that I do" thing? Rain and erosion does much more damage than one bicycle ever to trails.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

155K98 said:


> I wonder what is the fear behind all this "you can't ride the same trails that I do" thing? Rain and erosion does much more damage than one bicycle ever to trails.


Most of that talk comes from people who don't actually build or maintain trails in real life to any great extent IME.
MTB racers (and 'fans' and 'the industry') are some of the biggest hypocrites in this regard - they've got no problem running hundreds of riders through a trail system in absolutely terrible conditions, then packing up and leaving all the damage and trash for the local builders to deal with, but god forbid some dude on an e-bike rolls through the same trail system when it's dry and packed. 

Mountain biker trail riders are generally oblivious to their own impact. I see it all the time at my pumptrack. BMX/DJ guys will make a point of paying attention to how they're riding and avoid hacking the place up, and if they do case or divot something, they're usually right out there fixing it.
MTB guys are 1000x more likely to have no clue as to how to not trash the track in the first place, and 1000x less likely to take a few minutes to fix their damage when they inevitably do, since they love to run huge low pressure knobbies regardless of how smooth the terrain actually is, and also love to pretend they're some sort of rebel by doing dumb **** like riding along the top of berms and perpendicularly across steep faces instead of just sticking to the painfully obvious design intent.
Glass houses.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

I'm a avid "multi-biker" (), as noted above, and wholeheartedly agree that a Class 1 e-MTB is different from an analog pedal MTB. But it is most assuredly still a mountain bike.

Oh, and I am a very active trail builder and maintainer in a major trail system who has dedicated scores of hours to trail routing, design, building and maintenance (in very difficult conditions). The greatest impact to the trails are, in order, from Mother Nature, enduro-brah "skid kids" who trash the trails by skidding their way down like they see on YouTube videos, and Class 2 e-motos who roost trails with their throttles and powerful motors. Class 1 e-MTB's and analog pedal MTB's have the exact same impact, which is far less than those above.

There is an increasing level of e-MTB use near me, and I see multiple e-MTB's on almost every ride, with no "e-bike fires" or hacked motors, etc. Those are fear-mongering internet myths.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Out of interest I've seen a couple of people mention class 1 e-bikes which by my understanding (here in the US at least) are assist only up to 20mph. Class 2 are assist OR 'push and go' (throttle controlled) up to 20mph, and finally class three are assist only but up to 27mph. Are folks ok with the 20mph limit but not the 27mph limit?

I don't have any issues with classes 1 or 3 being treated as bikes, but class 2 should be considered a motorcycle and subject to different rules.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

toyotatacomaTRD said:


> So you're saying there's zero chance on an e-bike catching on fire when everyone can literally google it and look at pictures of them on fire until their hearts content, lol.


Hmmm...



















Girl, 14, 'killed by exploding phone' after going to bed listening to music


A SCHOOLGIRL was killed in her sleep after her charging smartphone exploded on her pillow as she slept, according to reports. Alua Asetkyzy Abzalbek, 14, went to bed listening to music at her villa…




www.thesun.co.uk













Teenager, 18, killed by smartphone explosion as she talked to relative


Shocking photos show the destroyed phone after the powerful blast.




metro.co.uk


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

toyotatacomaTRD said:


> So you're saying there's zero chance on an e-bike catching on fire when everyone can literally google it and look at pictures of them on fire until their hearts content, lol.


Nope; not what I'm saying. The issue is overblown and taken out of context. Fires from cell phone batteries or pedal strikes are more likely.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chiefsilverback said:


> Out of interest I've seen a couple of people mention class 1 e-bikes which by my understanding (here in the US at least) are assist only up to 20mph. Class 2 are assist OR 'push and go' (throttle controlled) up to 20mph, and finally class three are assist only but up to 27mph. Are folks ok with the 20mph limit but not the 27mph limit?
> 
> I don't have any issues with classes 1 or 3 being treated as bikes, but class 2 should be considered a motorcycle and subject to different rules.


Class 2 riders would disagree. They're not going any faster, just have their throttles set up differently.
Also, makes no sense to categorize a faster more powerful machine as a 'bicycle' while a less powerful and slower machine is called a 'motorcycle'.

How about they get categorized as what they actually are, which is different classes of e-bikes, and stop trying to pretend they are other things that they obviously aren't? Too much common sense?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

waltaz said:


> Nope; not what I'm saying. The issue is overblown and taken out of context. Fires from cell phone batteries or pedal strikes are more likely.


High time to ban metal pedals, obviously.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

The difference between a battery in a cell phone and an ebike battery is discharge rate. I see this comparison made so often but it's the proverbial apples to oranges. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

slapheadmofo said:


> Class 2 riders would disagree. They're not going any faster, just have their throttles set up differently.
> Also, makes no sense to categorize a faster more powerful machine as a 'bicycle' while a less powerful and slower machine is called a 'motorcycle'.
> 
> How about they get categorized as what they actually are, which is different classes of e-bikes, and stop trying to pretend they are other things that they obviously aren't? Too much common sense?


I think if the only way to make it go is to pedal it then it's a bicycle, if you can sit there without moving your feet and scoot along at 20mph it's a motorbike. By saying the latter is just a different version of the former you are now allowing that creep to an electric motorbike that can hammer along at 40 or 50 mph and that's where I see a lot of the concern. If you clearly separate the two then you take away that concern.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> So now you are going to utilize the law to limit allowed e-bikes to only name brands with a proven safety record? The e-bike riders that I have seen are not experienced riders buying high end equipment.
> 
> 95% of the e-bikes I see on CTX trails are Chinese Alibaba crap with twist throttles, stereos (I'm not kidding), and a taillight. To be clear, they are just electric motorcycles.
> 
> ...


We do safety regulations and certifications on vehicles already. And most major eBike drivetrain manufacturers obtain a variety of certifications on their systems and components. So yes, we can ensure only safe bikes/vehicles with product safety certifications and import regulations.

Regarding enforcement, there's nothing to stop dirt bikes, quads, side-by-sides, alien spacecraft, or cruise missiles from going on trails either. But I'm unaware of this being a widespread problem. As mentioned in other threads on the topic, douchebags will be douchebags, independent of their means of conveyance. Plenty of fast MTBers cause massive trail conflict because they corner too fast on blind trails, descend too fast on multiuse trails, or just because they're d*ckheads.

The best option (and the one I strongly support) is limiting eMTB access to trails to Class 1 bikes with a speed limit of 20 MPH along with steep fines for derestriction.

I don't know what KTMs plans are, but I'm 99.9999% confident a crank activated 300 two stroke ain't on the roadmap.

Cheers, and thanks for sharing your POV. It is respected and valued, and if the community can just open its collective minds in both directions, we can find common ground and a great solution.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Like others here, I couldn't care less if someone wants to ride a Class 1. Ride what makes you happy. My thing has always been that's it's only a matter of time before things get out of hand with what's allowed and how it's enforced.

I just spent a week in Bend, and after riding down from higher elevations connected to the Phil's trails on a busy Saturday. The lower sections and pump tracks were littered with tourists on twist throttle fat bikes. I saw a couple goobers damn near run into people on the pump track, and the trails themselves had more than a few pudgy house dad's riding them with their kids at 2mph.

If people want to ride ebikes, I say go for it. There needs to be some kind of enforcement in place though or things are going to start getting out of hand.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> Are people really claiming that fires are started by pedal strikes, as a comparison to the real problem of battery fires? LOL
> 
> What the Hell dudes!


It actually does happen. Most (nearly all) battery fires don't happen on the trails. The vast majority are during charging, and the vast majority of those are cheap no-name brands.

Mountain bike pedal sparks forest fire - BikeRadar


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> Annual inspections, certifications and insurance requirements for e-bikes sounds like a good plan then.
> 
> Or the areas could be for human powered only?


I think the "human powered only" train has left the station. It's about finding compromise now.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

RickBullottaPA said:


> I think the "human powered only" train has left the station. It's about finding compromise now.


That "human powered only" train left the station for me when I first came up on a horse rider on the trails.

First thing I thought to myself was "the steel shoes on that horse's hooves could spark a wild fire if it stepped on a rock"...

Ban the horses!!! They're not human powered and can cause wildfires!!!!


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## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

I've only ever ridden an ebike while working on trail crew doing maintenance and it's astonishing how much assist you can get climbing. I've E-pulled a trailer full of boardwalk decking up a DH trail that nobody climbs because it's so steep but it's possible to do it loaded up with E-assist. Personally I prefer my full-pedal mountain bikes for actual recreational rides, but if I had unlimited funds I might also have a lighter weight ebike to use sometimes. I find the Giant E-Trances that I've ridden really heavy and cumbersome and the DH is a different experience than what I'd prefer. Maybe if I regularly rode a much heavier bike than my 28 pound trail bike or 24 pound SS then I'd be less fazed by the weight of the ebike on the DH. I was especially fazed by the weight on the day that the battery ran out and I had to pedal uphill back to the storage shed pulling a trailer full of tools. 

As far as whether you can get a workout riding them, of course you can, but you don't need to. In my experience it seems that most people I see on ebikes aren't working that hard and are actually just using it to make the climbs less work. There are also some ebikers who seem to be non-bikers who've rented or purchased and ebike so they can ride with their friends - often on trails they aren't skilled enough to ride. It looks sketchy. 

Basically, there are all types of ebikers - it's not the bike that creates issues, it's the rider (kind of like strava not creating assholes, even though it makes some assholes easier to identify). Interestingly the only local rider I've noticed on an ebike who seems to be a pain in the ass was also the guy running people off trails while hunting obscure strava achievements before he ever had an ebike. It's not about the bike.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> Unless you are a land manager, it's not your line to draw.


And every land manager will allow class 1e bikes everywhere bikes are allowed, just like everywhere else in the world

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> So many internet hardos.
> Probably the same clueless dorks who think riding an MX bike is for 'lazy' people too.
> 
> Nobody gives a **** about your stupid VO2 threshold but you, and maybe some of your tri-geek/Cross-Fit friends.
> ...


As usual, you repeated my exact sentiments much more eloquently than I could. Nobody is saying that e-MTB is the same as MTB in case that becomes the next plaintive cry of the "muscle men" (we're talking between their ears.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rod9301 said:


> And every land manager will allow class 1e bikes everywhere bikes are allowed, just like everywhere else in the world


Which I personally would have no problem with.

But of course, you're just throwing out wishful thinking BS.
Let me direct you back to where the OP decided to buy a bicycle rather then a pedele for the precise reason that he found the opposite situation in the real world.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fos'l said:


> As usual, you repeated my exact sentiments much more eloquently than I could. Nobody is saying that e-MTB is the same as MTB in case that becomes the next plaintive cry of the "muscle men" (we're talking between their ears.


Thanks brotha. 

But to be honest, you'll actually see a number of people hear claiming exactly that.
As you and I have seen over and over for years now, the motor-deniers aren't much better than the hardos at figuring this stuff out. 🤪😉

If people would just use a common sense approach and deal with reality instead of fantasy, the whole e-bike 'issue' would go away in no time.

Ready for the part when, after I spent however many pages sticking up for e-bikes, some e-biker starts crying that I'm a 'HATER!!" because I said the M-word? You know it's coming...


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Hater! 

Btw the OP choose a regular bike cause he wants to ride it at bike parks so what's the point right?


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> The only way to logically separate them definition-wise is at the point where you add a motor, which is exactly how it is actually done.
> 
> Pop quiz:
> 
> ...


I'm sure you already know this, but there is no way to make a class 1 pedal assisted ebike work without human power turning the cranks. The pedals will never be "just for show". All the motor does is add torque to the cranks when the user starts pedaling. In reality, the amount of torque these bikes are producing is not all that much. It just feels like it when riding the bike. Moto and thrill seeking people aren't going to be able to hack these bikes to make them go *THAT* much faster than they already do unless they figure out a way to make there legs turn a *WHOLE* lot faster. The bikes add torque to the cranks, yes, but the overall speed they can get to whilst being pedaled is still limited by the rider doing the pedaling and the final drive gear ratios.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

slapheadmofo said:


> \That is why there is a Class 3 designation, which you are also saying should be considered just a 'bicycle' but can, even in stock form, can pull you along at almost 30mph.


I hadn't realized that there are virtually no class 3 eMTBs available, so right not it's a bit of a moot point, and even if you had one I don't know how easy they are to get up to 28mph, especially off-road/uphill? Given most people don't descend that fast even though gravity would let them, are they actually going to try and ascend that fast, or do survival instincts kick in?

I still firmly believe that by putting pedal assist only and push-to-go bikes in the same broad group of 'e-bikes' it makes it harder to advocate for just the former.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Tickle said:


> Hater!
> 
> Btw the OP choose a regular bike cause he wants to ride it at bike parks so what's the point right?


The OP is new to the game and didn't seem to realize that 'bike park' is typically used to refer to a lift-accessed trail system. He was using 'bike park' to refer to regular trails.


----------



## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

slapheadmofo said:


> The OP is new to the game and didn't seem to realize that 'bike park' is typically used to refer to a lift-accessed trail system. He was using 'bike park' to refer to regular trails.


I wish Highland had a permanent uphill option, I can get in almost as many laps in 2 hours on a Wensduro night as I can in 5 or 6 hours riding the lift on a busy day!


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chiefsilverback said:


> I still firmly believe that by putting pedal assist only and push-to-go bikes in the same broad group of 'e-bikes' it makes it harder to advocate for just the former.


I know for a fact that putting motorized bikes and non-motorized bikes in the same broad group of 'bicycles' makes it harder to advocate for just the former.

Which is really my only gripe when it comes to e-bikes. 
But as long as people try to insist we all pretend the motor isn't there, that problem will remain a problem.

Why not just go with the system that is already determined instead of trying to force everyone to operate in fantasy-land?
And trying to force mountain bike advocates to become de-facto e-bike advocates even if they have zero interest in that whole can of worms? Why can't e-bikers just advocate for themselves? Which is exactly the position of the main MTB advocacy group in your own area.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MX9799 said:


> I'm sure you already know this, but there is no way to make a class 1 pedal assisted ebike work without human power turning the cranks. The pedals will never be "just for show". All the motor does is add torque to the cranks when the user starts pedaling. In reality, the amount of torque these bikes are producing is not all that much. It just feels like it when riding the bike. Moto and thrill seeking people aren't going to be able to hack these bikes to make them go *THAT* much faster than they already do unless they figure out a way to make there legs turn a *WHOLE* lot faster. The bikes add torque to the cranks, yes, but the overall speed they can get to whilst being pedaled is still limited by the rider doing the pedaling and the final drive gear ratios.


I never said that it was an issue with Class 1 bikes.

And there is no way to make any e-bike work without human power actuating it, if we're getting all pedantic about it.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chiefsilverback said:


> I wish Highland had a permanent uphill option, I can get in almost as many laps in 2 hours on a Wensduro night as I can in 5 or 6 hours riding the lift on a busy day!


You don't hate E-bikes AND chairlifts?

Watch out, the hardos are going to revoke your MTB credentials!!!


----------



## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

slapheadmofo said:


> You don't hate E-bikes AND chairlifts?
> 
> Watch out, the hardos are going to revoke your MTB credentials!!!


I do like a good climb.


----------



## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

This thread should have some kind of legendary status appointed to it for having like 3 solid pages discussing the most ridiculous forest fire scenarios.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> Class 2 riders would disagree. They're not going any faster, just have their throttles set up differently.


Just by that, it makes possible a different style of riding (sustained wheelspin-in-loose, since non-pedaling legs aren't de-stabilizing, significant reciprocating masses, but are instead balance tools and outriggers) that imbues them with the potential for usage and trail erosion closer to that of a motorcycle. I think current policy treating Class 2 as a different animal in the context of trail use is very much correct.

(Sure, I guess pedaling-sustained-wheelspin is theoretically possible a la stretch drift bikes, but I've never seen them outside of the context of smooth, predictable surfaces... and obviously trail-unfriendly geometries.)


----------



## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> The OP is new to the game and didn't seem to realize that 'bike park' is typically used to refer to a lift-accessed trail system. He was using 'bike park' to refer to regular trails.


Oh, well hell ebike all the way then!!!!


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> I never said that it was an issue with Class 1 bikes.
> 
> And there is no way to make any e-bike work without human power actuating it, if we're getting all pedantic about it.


I thought you were discussing class 1 ebike hacking in your post when you said they'd be hacked to make the pedals "just for show".

There's also a pretty significant difference between "human powered" and "human powered actuation". A class 1 ebike cannot be activated without the rider putting some amount of human power directly into the drivetrain, which is why I said they can't be hacked to render the pedals/cranks useless or not needed. At least mine can't anyways.

I also don't think de-restriction of class 1 ebikes is going to lead to a HUGE increase in top speeds.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> Class 1 E- bikes increase the rider's power 400% at max input.
> Stop acting like it's a little assist, unless you are referring to the rider.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


That's cute, but despite the advertising print you referenced, they just don't. They produce a max of 750 watts, and most actually less. My Brose motor maxes out at 560 watts of peak power. Meanwhile, many analog riders can produce 1500+ watts.

More importantly, class 1 eMTB's have been proven to have no more impact on the trail or environment than analog. My personal experience is that average speed is about 4mph faster. oh, the horror.

.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

_CJ said:


> That's cute, but despite the advertising print you referenced, they just don't. They produce a max of 750 watts, and most actually less. My Brose motor maxes out at 560 watts of peak power. Meanwhile, many analog riders can produce 1500+ watts.
> 
> More importantly, class 1 eMTB's have been proven to have no more impact on the trail or environment than analog. My personal experience is that average speed is about 4mph faster. oh, the horror.
> 
> .


You're trying to appeal to the haters with logic and data. We discovered that wouldn't work many years ago. They live by unsubstantiated data and extreme extrapolations that are beyond the realm of possibility.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Sorry, double.


----------



## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> If I bake a cake at home, mixing the batter by hand and putting it in a mixing stand are two completely different things that take completely different amounts of effort. Calling the mixing stand a "human actuated mixer" doesn't make it any less automated, it just makes it sound like you're trying to distract from the fact that it's doing the work for you.


No **** Sherlock, hence us saying that the throttle is human actuated. I don't think anyone on this thread is arguing for ebikes with a throttle being allowed on the trails.


----------



## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Suns_PSD said:


> Class 1 E- bikes increase the rider's power 400% at max input.
> Stop acting like it's a little assist, unless you are referring to the rider.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


Stop acting like class 1 emtbs have some huge amount of power available on tap to fly around the trails at blazing speed. They don't. My weedeater has more power.


----------



## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Specialized markets their ebikes as having 4x the power of a human. How is that not huge?


----------



## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Pushing pedals and letting a motor do most of the work is the equivalent of locking the paddles in and flipping the switch on an electric mixer was my point.
> 
> Yes it requires human input, but the effort is significantly less.
> 
> Edit: you also must have missed my post about how I DO see twist throttle bikes on the trails now.


I've yet to see a twist throttle ebike on trails, but even if they are, nobody here is advocating for them to be there.

As far as your comment about lightly pushing on the pedals while letting the motor do all the work goes, thanks for letting us all know that you have no emtb riding experience.


----------



## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Specialized markets their ebikes as having 4x the power of a human. How is that not huge?


750 watts is like 1 hp dude. My first dirt bike I got as a 4 year old made more power.

If you ever find yourself on a Levo, be careful man. That 1 hp is a beast!!!!


----------



## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I've ridden an ebike.
> 
> and just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they aren't on the trails. Like I said before, ride what you want. The access for "ebikes" is too broad and needs to be more specific and heavily enforced.


The you should know that lightly applying pressure to the pedals while letting the motor do all the work won't get very far, very fast. I could ride my regular bike faster than riding an ebike like that. Who wants to buy an ebike to go slower than their regular mtb.


----------



## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

MX9799 said:


> 750 watts is like 1 hp dude. My first dirt bike I got as a 4 year old made more power.
> 
> If you ever find yourself on a Levo, be careful man. That 1 hp is a beast!!!!


1hp is about 750 watts. The average strong rider puts out around 200 watts... So yea, by your own admission you're getting roughly 4x the power of your own legs. That's a lot.


----------



## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

It's not just about how many watts, it's how the motor is designed. My Brose TF is about as powerful as the BBSHD. One uses 36v the other 48/52.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

MX9799 said:


> I've yet to see a twist throttle ebike on trails, but even if they are, nobody here is advocating for them to be there. .


Why not? 
The net result is exactly the same. Why does spinning pedals to activate the throttle/ rheostat change anything for you if they are both limited to 20mph?

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Pisgah (Feb 24, 2006)

dundundata said:


> A regular bike is much tougher, and there is no easy switch. You pedal that thing until you get where you're going, pain be damned.


Great quote


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## Jon A (Jan 4, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> Why not?
> The net result is exactly the same. Why does spinning pedals to activate the throttle/ rheostat change anything for you if they are both limited to 20mph?


It doesn't. The objections to throttles are purely emotional, semantic or theoretical. At least those presented, if there's any real data out there to support the notion it sure would be nice if some of the objectors would present it someday. People in the MTB/eMTB bubble sometimes forget most bikes are purchased as transportation devices, and many of the trails they want access to are used by people simply wanting to get from one place to another. When the goal is simply to get somewhere, there are many situations where a throttle can come in quite handy--not because they add any power or torque or cause wheelspin.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Suns_PSD said:


> Why not?
> The net result is exactly the same. *Why does spinning pedals to activate the throttle/ rheostat change anything for you if they are both limited to 20mph*?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


It doesn't really change anything for me. I could care less if throttled ebikes are allowed or not allowed on trails I ride.

The post that started my responses was about what I thought was folks eventually hacking a class 1 ebike to make the pedals useless and just for show if they are allowed on the trails. My whole argument was that the way a class 1 ebike's motor works will never make that possible, since human power has to be added to the cranks to activate the power.


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## Jon A (Jan 4, 2021)

You can use the same motor to build a class 1, 2 or 3 bike. Change the max speed in the programming, plug in and install a throttle or not. There isn't nearly as much difference between the classes in the real world as people imagine.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> 1hp is about 750 watts. The average strong rider puts out around 200 watts... So yea, by your own admission you're getting roughly 4x the power of your own legs. That's a lot.


On paper, 4X the amount of the average rider's power sounds like a lot. In reality, it's not. One horsepower is not a lot of power. 4X a small amount of power is still not a whole lot of power.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Suns_PSD said:


> An e- bike is just a type of motorcycle.


Not if you actually have to pedal the thing to make it go. If you have to pedal it then it's a bicycle, if you press a button/twist a throttle and it goes along it's a motorbike.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chiefsilverback said:


> Not if you actually have to pedal the thing to make it go. If you have to pedal it then it's a bicycle, if you press a button/twist a throttle and it goes along it's a motorbike.


Actually, I've learned if you have to pedal it, it's a pedelec. 
If it has a hand throttle, it's an e-bike.









Pedelecs Vs. E-bikes


What is the difference between pedelecs and e-bikes?



www.electric-bicycle-guide.com













Difference between pedelecs and e-bikes?


There are two styles of propulsion methods.Pedelec or pedal assist.Power on demand or throttle basedPedal AssistPedelecs are electric bicycles that must be pedaled.Pedal assist works automatically when you start pedaling. Motor assistance will only turn on to help you when you pedal. The engine...




www.xplorerlife.com


----------



## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

Back to the OP's question, get a FS eMTB or an analog one. To an extent you are spoiled with the Cojo Neo, I know I am with my Habit Neo. Either demo or borrow a analog FS and take it to the trails you ride and hope to ride and see if it is as much fun. Personally, I know I won't go hack to an non eMTB after two years of owning one.

As far as the mixing analogy. IMHO, you are comparing mixing with a fork verses a egg beater







because you still have to to do the work, it is just more efficient where an electric one, you just hold it.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MX9799 said:


> I've yet to see a twist throttle ebike on trails, but even if they are, nobody here is advocating for them to be there.


I kind of am.
What's the BFD? There are plenty of trails where they'd be fine.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


> Your egg beater is missing the motor.


You are correct it is but it still needs you to manually work it, same with the eMTB, you still need to pedal, it just makes it easier and more efficient.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

MOPED - at one time, you could buy a true moped in Hawaii where I grew up. I delivered papers with mine. The 50cc 2 stroke motor was so weak, that I had to use my meat power to get it up the steep hills in my neighborhood. It was a Yamaha, but the Honda Hobbit was similar concept. It reminds me of the e-bikes of today - you better not run out of gas because it was ***** to pedal it, even for a 15 year old!


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> I kind of am.
> *What's the BFD? There are plenty of trails where they'd be fine.*


I'm sure there are. Wouldn't bother me one bit if I had to share the trails with them.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

chiefsilverback said:


> I was thinking about these, class 2 e-bikes are the modern evolution of these and logically if you allow a class 2 e-bike you should allow something like this....


Yes - I had fun renting one of these class 2 e-bikes in Crested Butte a few months ago. I thought I was a class 1 purist, until I rode this Pedago Element on a 44 mile ride on USFS roads. However, using "throttle only" really, really drains your battery fast.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

chiefsilverback said:


> Not if you actually have to pedal the thing to make it go. If you have to pedal it then it's a bicycle, if you press a button/twist a throttle and it goes along it's a motorbike.


The obvious, but clearly not so much for some.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chiefsilverback said:


> I was thinking about these, class 2 e-bikes are the modern evolution of these and logically if you allow a class 2 e-bike you should allow something like this....


So you support Class 1 and 3 bikes on trails, but not Class 2?
Interesting.


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> That's not obvious to those that haven't drank the Koolaid because it's simply a ridiculous notion.
> 
> The MOTOR isn't what determines if it's a motor bike according to you. OK!!!! GTFO with that cr*p.


Policy was initially written with "bicycle" and "motorbike" as shorthand for the overall impact each vehicle group has on the shared resource. Policymakers weren't ego-driven exercise freaks with a quasi-religious fixation for human-powered transportation*, but rather pragmatists who understood that the "motorbike" as-it-existed-then had outsized deleterious effects on the shared resource by degrading both trail conditions (vastly increased erosion given their common use modes) and safety (by increasing the speed differential of trail users), and by increasing pollution (both air and noise).

* I mean, they felt equestrians were legit, right? Come at me with the, "they believed in flesh-powered transportation," argument, Bro. 

But this shorthand lost its relevance when the modern Class I eMTB came around. Because the lion's share of the deleterious effects associated with the traditional gas-and-throttle-powered motorbike were no longer applicable anymore. This is why the Federal government (and many State governments) took the stance that despite having a motor, a Class I e-bike was not a "motorbike" in the eyes of the law. This just an easy way of accommodating the new reality, while not having to change all the numerous policies embedded over the years at various levels of government that was based off the old-and-outdated paradigms of "bike" and "motorbike". It also provided an easy way to roll-back e-bike policy should their understanding prove wrong as society embraces (and sometimes, exploits) the new technology.

The only people who can't wrap their heads around this reality and choose to fixate on the motor (as if that was the actual issue) are policy "originalists" who choose to fixate on the imperfections and the practical shortcuts people (and policymakers) make in the English language and pretend that they can't understand historical context and therefore can't interpret the god-like, eternally-mysterious intent of policymaking bodies.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

slapheadmofo said:


> So you support Class 1 and 3 bikes on trails, but not Class 2?
> Interesting.


I've stated this multiple times but it turns out class 3 is something of a moot point because there don't appear to be many 'proper' class 3 eMTBs, the class 3s appear to be more 'ruggedized' commuter/leisure bikes.

On bike path/recreation/multi-use trails I'd still prohibit class 2, but also impose a 15 mph speed limit regardless of the method of propulsion. On my drop bar bike I could easily do stints on a nice rail trail at 20mph+ but it would be totally irresponsible if there are people walking pets, small kids wobbling along on balance bikes etc... If you need/want to go that fast you should be on the road.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

From article here, An Open Letter to All Mountain Bikers. 
Snipet:
_Nonmotorized access laws were instituted to limit trail access for gas-powered motorcycles, quads/four-wheelers, and other off-road vehicles that are noisy and damage trails. Other levels of access exist for such human-powered activities as hiking, trail running, mountain biking, and, in some regions, horses. These distinctions were clear and well-defined for years, until the recent introduction of a class of mountain bike that seems to blur the lines. That new segment is electric mountain bikes, or eMTBs. Such bikes have an electric-assist motor, but one that is activated only under human power, not like a throttle on a traditional motorized vehicle. Now the question is, Should this new segment of mountain bikes be allowed on mountain bike trails or limited to motorized access trails. Well, who is actually asking the question, and where does the problem arise?_


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Suns_PSD said:


> So the data the manufacturers publish is inaccurate? But your feelings are correct?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


Thanks for reminding me; and they produce inanities to deflect other's statements.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

Suns_PSD said:


> That's not obvious to those that haven't drank the Koolaid because it's simply a ridiculous notion.
> 
> The MOTOR isn't what determines if it's a motor bike according to you. OK!!!! GTFO with that cr*p.


Last time I checked a CR 450 has foot pegs and a twist throttle. No cranks and pedals to be seen. Then again you're that GUY who insinuates that NO one needs a 50t, because YOU don't.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Ripbird said:


> Last time I checked a CR 450 has foot pegs and a twist throttle. No cranks and pedals to be seen. Then again you're that GUY who insinuates that NO one needs a 50t, because YOU don't.


This is all absurd.

GL.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chiefsilverback said:


> I've stated this multiple times but it turns out class 3 is something of a moot point because there don't appear to be many 'proper' class 3 eMTBs, the class 3s appear to be more 'ruggedized' commuter/leisure bikes.


If I ever buy an e-bike, this gets ordered at the same time. 





__





E Bike Tuning - Unlock the Speed Limit!


E Bike Tuning Store to derestrict Bosch Gen2 or Gen1, Yamaha Powerdrive or Syncdrive, Panasonic 36V, Impulse, Shimano STEPS, Brose and BionX motors. E Bike Tuning Devices take away the Speed Limit of your Electric Bicycle. Unlocking the Speed Limit (for example at 25 km/h) of Your E Bike.




www.ebiketuning.com


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

It's always funny how the same anti-ebike people find there way onto the ebike form! And spewing their total lack of understanding how a class 1 ebike works. Just stop, you guys come across as seriously ignorant! If you like to climb we get it! Have at it, but please stop coming into the ebike form and trolling! I will start giving out temporary bans!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

To the OP, nice choice with the Bronson! I Demo’d that bike for a week and was very impressed what a good all-around bike it was! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

_CJ said:


> That's cute, but despite the advertising print you referenced, they just don't. They produce a max of 750 watts, and most actually less. My Brose motor maxes out at 560 watts of peak power. *Meanwhile, many analog riders can produce 1500+ watts.*
> 
> More importantly, class 1 eMTB's have been proven to have no more impact on the trail or environment than analog. My personal experience is that average speed is about 4mph faster. oh, the horror.
> .


When this little gem was posted I really didn't have any idea how much power a typical mountain bike rider puts out, but I just want to point out that the above number is rubbish.

This very fit Pro mountain bike riders did 799 watts at an absolute sprint for 30 seconds, like fall off the bike unable to breathe after 30 seconds. The other rider did 667 watts average for 30 seconds.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-pitting-downhiller-adam-brayton-and-enduro-racer-elliot-heap-against-each-other-in-3-tests.html



750 watts (quoted above as e- motor power) in addition to your output is way above and beyond what an average, even very fit mountain biker could ever produce. 1500 watts is just rubbish. Just because one Tour de France rider produced that for 10 seconds 1x doesn't make it typical.

Someone else said an amateur athlete would produce about 200 watts and that sounds about right so we are still looking at an e-bike 4x your power.

You can argue all you want that 750 watts + your 200 = 950 Watts isn't that much but anyone that has ridden a full powered e-bike or even just sprinted as hard as they can can imagine that this is a LOT of relative power for zipping around some little dirt trails with hikers, kids & what not.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> When this little gem was posted I really didn't have any idea how much power a typical mountain bike rider puts out, but I just want to point out that the above number is rubbish.
> 
> This very fit Pro mountain bike riders did 799 watts at an absolute sprint for 30 seconds, like fall off the bike unable to breathe after 30 seconds. The other rider did 667 watts average for 30 seconds.
> 
> ...


Fun, right?

Unfortunately 750w is in turbo, which would only last you, maybe half an hour, assuming the motor doesn't overheat.

But yeah, there's no way an old school mountain biker can keep up, or have as much fun going uphill

And downhill, because you're doing twice and much, you can go back to try some things twice.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

mtbbiker said:


> It's always funny how the same anti-ebike people find there way onto the ebike form! And spewing their total lack of understanding how a class 1 ebike works. Just stop, you guys come across as seriously ignorant! If you like to climb we get it! Have at it, but please stop coming into the ebike form and trolling! I will start giving out temporary bans!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


anti-Ebikers are the vegans of the MTB world. It's not good enough to just do what they want to do, they have to keep everyone else from doing anything different.

.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

chiefsilverback said:


> I hadn't realized that there are virtually no class 3 eMTBs available, so right not it's a bit of a moot point, and even if you had one I don't know how easy they are to get up to 28mph, especially off-road/uphill? Given most people don't descend that fast even though gravity would let them, are they actually going to try and ascend that fast, or do survival instincts kick in?
> 
> I still firmly believe that by putting pedal assist only and push-to-go bikes in the same broad group of 'e-bikes' it makes it harder to advocate for just the former.


Borrow one for a day or two. It'll change your perspective.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> When this little gem was posted I really didn't have any idea how much power a typical mountain bike rider puts out, but I just want to point out that the above number is rubbish.
> 
> This very fit Pro mountain bike riders did 799 watts at an absolute sprint for 30 seconds, like fall off the bike unable to breathe after 30 seconds. The other rider did 667 watts average for 30 seconds.
> 
> ...


Track sprinters can approach 2000 watts (peak). Most class 1 eMTBs are max 250 watts (realistically). A lot of Cat 1 MTB racers can climb and sprint with a lot of Cat 3 racers on eMTBs - I've seen it frequently on mixed rides. Can they sustain that output for 90 minutes? Unlikely. Jeremiah Bishop suggested that he can push 350 watts for a couple hours, but he's an outlier. I guess my point is that mainstream class 1 eMTBs aren't so wildly powerful as many think. I gave a stat on another thread that my KTM 350 puts out about 40000 watts for comparison. Sure, it has to pull another 200 pounds around, but that's almost two orders of magnitude more powerful.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Just browsing some of my ride records looking for power data. I use BLEvo, which very conveniently keeps track of power, and separates it between the rider and the bike (I guess the bike sensors report both). I have it set on "smart power mode" which basically tries to vary the assistance so that the rider outputs a fixed power and it makes up the rest. I have my "trail" mode set at 140 watts.

With the e-bike, I tend to ride up to go down, so any average power stats are a bit skewed. Actually I'm not sure if the software is smart enough to factor that out of the calculation or what... But anyway, it reports me averaging somewhere around 120 watts and typically the bike is making up 200ish.

Max power output for a ride is usually around 500 W.

I typically cruise up fire roads in trail mode at an effort that one would consider a light aerobic workout. I'm sure I could push the max power numbers higher if I wanted to, but these are numbers where I ride the bike up a hill as fast as makes sense, not to just go as fast as I can. I'm guessing this is fairly typical of how these things are used. I think I am probably putting out power numbers with the e-bike that a really-fit 20-something would be doing.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> When this little gem was posted I really didn't have any idea how much power a typical mountain bike rider puts out, but I just want to point out that the above number is rubbish.
> 
> This very fit Pro mountain bike riders did 799 watts at an absolute sprint for 30 seconds, like fall off the bike unable to breathe after 30 seconds. The other rider did 667 watts average for 30 seconds.
> 
> ...


You really need to stop concentrating on max power. Only place you are going to get max power is a flat road or slight grade! Any real fire road, even in turbo, an ebike rider will run out of his/her power and will have to back off or blow up. Any single track climb, the single track will dictate the speed and there is no way you are going to hit max power. Maybe a few seconds here and there, before a turn or obstacle gets in the way.

You really need to rent or borrow an ebike for at least 5 rides to see what we are talking about

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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

This year particularly the amount of store bought ebikes I see out and about has tripled. With all that money saved by staying home due to covid and or the free government money floating around people are splurging on toys and reno's. I just wonder in 5-10yrs time if those ebikes and their dead batteries will be a dime a dozen because the proprietary battery is to expensive or no longer in stock.

Would be nice to figure out how to get the motor working with generic batteries and controllers, then hopefully not burn the motors up while doing so. If thats even allowed, or would it break "implied" terms of agreement when you purchased the bike?

Some store bought ebikes just use Bafang whether it be hub or mid drive.
Most people do not require a mid drive ebike anyways.


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

matt4x4 said:


> This year particularly the amount of store bought ebikes I see out and about has tripled. With all that money saved by staying home due to covid and or the free government money floating around people are splurging on toys and reno's. I just wonder in 5-10yrs time if those ebikes and their dead batteries will be a dime a dozen because the proprietary battery is to expensive or no longer in stock.
> 
> Would be nice to figure out how to get the motor working with generic batteries and controllers, then hopefully not burn the motors up while doing so. If thats even allowed, or would it break "implied" terms of agreement when you purchased the bike?
> 
> ...


Uh, I'm drunk... and I can tell you're drunk.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

DtEW said:


> Uh, I'm drunk... and I can tell you're drunk.


No matt4x4 is sober - and probably knows more about the e-tech than most of us. He believes we can save big $$ by going DIY etc. Can you imagine what your local Specialized dealer will charge you when you need a new (out of warranty) battery some day??


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Jack7782 said:


> No matt4x4 is sober - and probably knows more about the e-tech than most of us. He believes we can save big $$ by going DIY etc. Can you imagine what your local Specialized dealer will charge you when you need a new (out of warranty) battery some day??


I suspect very few of the people who currently own eMTBs will own the same bike in a couple years.


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Jack7782 said:


> No matt4x4 is sober - and probably knows more about the e-tech than most of us. He believes we can save big $$ by going DIY etc. Can you imagine what your local Specialized dealer will charge you when you need a new (out of warranty) battery some day??


As somebody who owns plenty of things with long lifetimes (if only because people tend to keep them around for their high sticker price and niche market, i.e. not easy to unload) and subject to proprietary parts that aren't even subject to the foreseeable reductions in manufacturing costs as one would expect for lithium ion batteries (or future chemistries made compatible)... I'm not terribly worried. And some of those things are even explicitly chip-protected against non-OEM parts!

That's because high financial incentives motivate a free market to do plenty of creative things, esp. if the given product is one that is popular and has a large installed user base.

Also whatever matt4x4 was implying with the part about "'implied' terms of agreement" suggests that he was drunk, or simply drunk off paranoia. Unless you have no actual ownership of an item (eg. is explicitly licensed, not sold), a supplier has no subsequent power over the consumer other than voiding their remaining obligation: the warranty. And even companies that are pioneering expansion/abuse of the traditional limits of the EULA (eg. John Deere) are facing political/legal push-back in the Right-To-Repair movement.

Specialized is a behemoth in the bike world, but a tiny company in the grand scheme of things. They would not be the entity to redefine the supplier/end-user relationship. Somebody else might... but not a bike company. No bike company. They might not keep parts in production far beyond their own current offerings... but they're in no position to keep 3rd-party solutions from the market... or more amusingly, matt4x4's "implied" legal binding of the user from non-OEM solutions.

The only thing that keeps 3rd-party solutions from coming to market (assuming that's even something an OEM even wants when their warranty obligations aren't an issue) is the existence of OEM solutions that the 3rd-party cannot surmount in terms of cost, and is hence rendered unprofitable.

I mean, the whole argument could only strike a chord with somebody who has never owned any automobile for any amount of time. And evokes a directly parallel argument that people should build their own electric cars so they won't be subject to how much their dealers might charge for a replacement battery pack down-the-line. The appeal of that approach is niche (to say the least) on just the myopic is-it-worth-my-time-to-do-this work grounds, and even-more-so on holistic grounds (i.e. is this liability worth taking upon myself? Do I risk more if my home burns down? What standard of testing and documentation do I need if I hope to hold anybody else liable should I suspect that my supplier might've sold me a bad batch of batteries that resulted in burning down my house? Or worse: was it worth the savings in battery costs by being my own pack builder, now defending myself in court against the lawsuits of my neighbors in the apartment building that they're trying to hold me responsible for burning down?)


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

DtEW said:


> As somebody who owns plenty of things with long lifetimes (if only because people tend to keep them around for their high sticker price and niche market, i.e. not easy to unload) and subject to proprietary parts that aren't even subject to the foreseeable reductions in manufacturing costs as one would expect for lithium ion batteries (or future chemistries made compatible)... I'm not terribly worried. And some of those things are even explicitly chip-protected against non-OEM parts!
> 
> ...... etc


Very well-said. I'm not terribly concerned that my S-Works Levo is going to become nothing but a piece of carbon art on my garage wall anytime soon. I am, however, prepared that I may have to throw another couple thousand into it at some point to keep it going. I accepted that possibility from day 1.


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## sooslow (Dec 14, 2017)

I ride both an analog and an Ebike (Specialized Levo). Where I live the Levo is the ultimate exploration machine. It's as much fun as my KTM 300..I can go on a 40 mile ride with 5Kish of elevation gain (battery conservation is the key, and a challenge) and such a ride takes 4 hours plus. My butt is kicked, and the fun factor is awesome. I still ride my analog bike (Ibis Ripmo) and really enjoy riding it, in fact do prefer the Ripmo to do an hour or so ride and use the Levo for "epic" rides that will take hours.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

RickBullottaPA said:


> I suspect very few of the people who currently own eMTBs will own the same bike in a couple years.


I've had mine for 4 years and nothing else tempts me

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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

rod9301 said:


> I've had mine for 4 years and nothing else tempts me
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


4-5 years is about what I'd expect. And well within typical spare parts availability.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

rod9301 said:


> I've had mine for 4 years and nothing else tempts me.


Unlike @rod9301 I am always tempted and looking for gear. But I will say my current Habit Neo fits like an old pair of jeans.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


> Most of that talk comes from people who don't actually build or maintain trails in real life to any great extent IME.
> MTB racers (and 'fans' and 'the industry') are some of the biggest hypocrites in this regard - they've got no problem running hundreds of riders through a trail system in absolutely terrible conditions, then packing up and leaving all the damage and trash for the local builders to deal with, but god forbid some dude on an e-bike rolls through the same trail system when it's dry and packed.
> 
> Mountain biker trail riders are generally oblivious to their own impact. I see it all the time at my pumptrack. BMX/DJ guys will make a point of paying attention to how they're riding and avoid hacking the place up, and if they do case or divot something, they're usually right out there fixing it.
> ...


You're 100% correct about the people complaining are the ones that don't ever volunteer and help maintain their local trails. Me and my son chip in when we can, and the reason we do it is so people can enjoy riding the trails. That's it. It's really that simple. I'm a happier person knowing people are out riding instead of sitting in front of the TV, and if it means an ebike gets them up and out, then I'm all for it. Not my personal cup of tea, but none of my business or concern what others ride. It's about having fun.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

One bike and to build fitness...regular bike. Maybe that was decided already but it is pretty obvious. E-bike as a second bike has some uses- faster rides, fun/easy rides, recovery rides, rides with other E-bikers, etc. I have not ridden mine but once this year but I'm training for some big rides, so I do that on all my regular bikes. I'll add it back in this Fall.


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Flyer said:


> One bike and to build fitness...regular bike. Maybe that was decided already but it is pretty obvious. E-bike as a second bike has some uses- faster rides, fun/easy rides, recovery rides, rides with other E-bikers, etc. I have not ridden mine but once this year but I'm training for some big rides, so I do that on all my regular bikes. I'll add it back in this Fall.


With all due respect... I think that makes zero sense, given that anybody at all familiar with eMTBs knows one can turn down the assist (and fine-tune greatly, in some cases) of an eMTB to approximate the effort of a nonelectric MTB... and even exceed the effort required of a nonelectric MTB if you're that sort of masochistic. If you have the will to train with "normal" levels of effort, you can 1) do it with an eMTB without having to deal with the upkeep of multiple bikes; and 2) always have a safety bailout should things like ability-compromising crashes, or unexpected turns (eg. getting lost, weather turning, wildfire, etc.) arise. I do virtually all of my solo riding on "Eco" (minimally assisted; I'd compare the effort to riding a lightweight nonelectric trailbike) mode to both train and savor the ride... and utilize higher-assisted modes for other purposes.

If one doesn't have the willpower to keep oneself in a low-assist mode, then I would think the eMTB/nonelectric MTB duo won't persist either, as you'll just gravitate toward taking the assisted ride more-and-more as time goes on. To rely on investment in equipment to keep yourself doing something you're already drifting away from is folly, I can tell you from experience.

The only reason an eMTBer would rationally keep a nonelectric MTB is either segregation of duties for-whatever-reason, or to enable things that the eMTB inherently can't do as well (due to its greater mass), eg. advanced bike handling, or to keep a nonelectric backup for the day the robots come for you . It wouldn't be for fitness.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Flyer said:


> One bike and to build fitness...regular bike. Maybe that was decided already but it is pretty obvious. E-bike as a second bike has some uses- faster rides, fun/easy rides, recovery rides, rides with other E-bikers, etc. I have not ridden mine but once this year but I'm training for some big rides, so I do that on all my regular bikes. I'll add it back in this Fall.


Similar to me - eMTB gets out once every 1-2 weeks, and when training for an MTB stage race it didn't see any action for a couple months. Now I'll usually do a fast paced solo ride or a ride with other eMTBers occasionally.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

DtEW- that may make zero sense to YOU but not to me. You can't constantly dial in and out the needed power level. It is totally diff on flat ground, on a 5% grade, on a 10% grade, and on a 15% grade. It would be impossible to do that and mimic a 28 lb regular mountain bike at each varying point. It simply is not doable. I have tried. Keep it on a super low level on the flats and then it becomes a heavier and heavier pig on each progressive climb. The handling is way off, and it is impossible to replicate. 

Maybe it is easier on something like the Rise or Levo SL but you still will need to mess with all the settings and customize it to just three different gradients. If you keep it on the adaptive or Trail setting, it is simply too easy to ride. I have played with it a lot and it is great fun for me except I can't really train with it and I hate the handling of heavier bikes. I'll use it for recovery rides and days when I want to just go along for a fun ride with the motor doing enough of the work. My main riding buddies don't ride Es so I just stick to my regular bike on group rides. 

I actually have a Specialized road/gravel E too, and it will be up for sale soon. I can customize it a bit better than the MTB but I find myself using it for the recovery rides only. Similarly, none of my riding buddies use Es on the road and while it has been great fun running away form the race teams once in a while, it is too pricey for just that. Of course, your experience may be vastly different that mine with two e-bikes over the last year to year and a half.


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## Rod B. (Jul 28, 2021)

It's been interesting reading the various responses to the Fixer 24's original question. A few of the comments are from people whom I suspect have never ridden an eBike. I've ridden both types of bike and would like to add my input.

In October 2019, I had a bad crash. I double dislocated my ankle. The Tibia exited on the side of my leg taking the main artery, nerves and big toe tendon with it. I literally destroyed my right ankle. I recall the ER doctor telling me that I had dislocated my ankle, but didn't break anything. I was visibly relieved. The doctor said "No, you don't get it. On a scale of one to ten, you did an 11 on the damage scale. The doctors seriously considered amputating my foot. I was like WTF......let's talk about this.

Prior to my accident, I rode my Yeti SB130 anywhere from four to seven times a week and about 3,000 miles a year. A 6,500 foot elevation gain spread out over seven miles was a piece of cake. I'm from North Orange County Ca. and besides my local trails I liked to ride Hurricane, Moab, Sedona, Bend, Tahoe, Downieville, and Fruita. At 61 years of age, I could do the Fullerton Loop in 50 minutes. That's my chops.

The doctors kept telling me to walk on my ankle. They said it would get better. I wore my back molars off from the pain of walking. Mountain bikers like to suffer. My ankle felt like a bag of potato chips. My ankle kept getting worse. The doctors and physical therapists thought I was being a pussy. I'm not. After eight months, I couldn't stand it any longer and fired my doctors. My new doctor immediately ordered up a CT Scan and informed me my ankle was completely dead and would never get better. He told me my ankle was dead from the start. The loss of blood from the severed artery, caused the cartilage and bone to die. He added that all the walking in the world would never have made it better. You're probably thinking that'd been nice to know eight months prior.

I ended up not walking for 14 months. I mostly laid in bed. It hurt to much to sit up. The blood would rush down into the ankle joint and not find it's way out. My doctor recommended I have my ankle fused, top to bottom. He added I would not be able to move my ankle, but I would have a little bit of front foot movement. He also cautioned that the dead bone would complicate things and my whole ankle could go "Poof" someday and result in an amputation. I was thinking 'Can I ride my bike like that?" I was also thinking, "Why not cut it off, the damn thing is killing me, I'll go run a 100 mile marathon with the phony foot." This totally sucks.....

During the 14 months of laying bed, I went from my 6' -1" at 172 pounds to 215 pounds. The inactivity was killing me. My buddies would send me pictures from their bike trips. I missed my bike and the rides with my buddies. I recall a ride we once did going up the upper Holy Jim trail. My buddy in the back was making little yelps and grunts of pain from the effort. When we got to the top, I asked him if he saw a little girl on the trail? He was surprised and said he didn't see any little girl. I said "I didn't see one either, but I could hear one behind me." I really missed riding with my buddies and dishing trash to each other.

In July of 2020, I was doing my usual morning ankle porn search and came across a medical journal article in which doctors used measurements from a CT Scan to 3D computer print a new ankle bone replacement. The plastic replica was used to cast a cobalt steel bone. The steel replacement was then modified to accept an upper ankle joint prosthetic. It was very cutting edge, Six Million Dollar Man stuff. I approached my doctor , he said no, it was too risky. I told him I wouldn't be able to walk very well with my ankle totally fused. I wouldn't be able to mountain bike ride. My life would be ****. Furthermore, my ankle might go "Poof" someday stepping off a curb and then It'd have to be amputated. I suggested we skip the drama and cut my foot off, or let's roll the dice and go with the Six Million Dollar Man stuff. My doctor called me the next day and said let's do it.

In November 2020, I had the ankle replacement surgery. In January 2021 I started walking again. My ankle isn't close to being perfect, my balance sucks, I can't move my big toe much, but it beats not being able to walk. I'm putting a check mark in the win category. I'm good to go.

Okay....when can I get back on my bike, doc? When I asked my doctor this, he blinked in surprise and didn't immediately answer. I agued my point, he argued his. We negotiated on April at the earliest. In April I got back on my Yeti and rode around the block. I felt like a monkey screwing a football riding the bike. I'd lost all my skills and my leg power. During the surgery, my doctor had to sever my Achilles Tendon and lengthen it. It had atrophied to the point I would not have been able to move my ankle after surgery. My leg looked like a Louisville Slugger baseball bat. Not having my Achilles to push down on the pedal wasn't helping. Okay, let's do this. Let's start from scratch. Let's learn to ride a bike all over again.

As I write this, I have 600 new Strava miles on my Yeti. My ankle hurts badly at times, my cardio sucks and I suffer to the point of almost throwing up on the climbs. I'm still a shadow of the former rider. My right leg now has a calf muscle and I can withstand small drops. My longest ride has been 18 miles. I did the Luge Trail the other day. I don't ride much with my friends. I've tried, but my pace is too slow and either I'm killing myself to keep up, or I'm holding them up. I don't want a charity ride, ya know?

Five weeks ago I said the hell with it and I bought an Orbea Rise M20 eBike. I was waiting for the lightening bolt to strike me when I pressed the "Buy" button. I was a harsh critic of eBikes. The rider is lazy, you have to earn it, your cheating.....The Rise is one of the new Superlight eBike designs. The Rise provides minimal assist and rides much like a normal mountain bike. I cannot begin to express how good it feels to ride again. I was seriously considering giving up riding. It was that bad. When I ride my Rise, It's like the hand of an Angel is gently pushing me on my back as I ride up a hill. I love the bike and I now ride with my friends again. I don't hold them up. I'm no longer afraid that I might encounter a steep tech section. I tell them I'll ride anytime, anywhere.

I feel guilty riding my eBike. I've always believed you have to earn it. I sometimes see the "Look" I get from pedal riders. They don't know me and my story. I will say this to you who pedal and suffer up the climbs. Don't judge the rider, you don't know their story. More importantly, It's all about the ride and the companionship of mountain bike riders, it doesn't matter how you get up the trail. We need to stick together. Pedal riders, you have more in common with the eBike rider than you think. Age and injury levels us all. You'll be getting an eBike when the time comes. Don't judge, you'll feel like a hypocritic **** when you finally do buy the eBike.

Having ridden both types of bikes, I will say this. With the newer minimal assist eBikes, you only get out of the bike, what you put into the bike. You have to pedal. When you stop pedaling, the power stops. You have three modes on an eBike "Eco", "Trail" and "Boost." You can switch between modes while riding and you can set the percentage of power that each mode provides. The Rise provides a maximum 4 to 1 effort. I have Eco mode set at 10% assist or roughly a 1.25 to 1.00 effort. With the 32T chainring and 40 Lb. bike weight, it pedals roughly the same as my Yeti, maybe a tad harder. I'm sweaty and my legs are sore after an Eco mode ride. I try to ride in Eco mode as often as possible. I have Trail Mode set at 50% assist or roughly a 2 to 1 effort. I like to use Trail on the uphill sections. I have Boost mode set at 100%, 4 to 1 assist. I use Boost on very steep and punchy climbs. I sometimes use Boost when my legs are toast towards the end of a ride. It's nice to have a bail out option.

To new riders, I will always suggest getting a pedal bike. The rewards as you develop your skill and stamina are great. Plus, it feels so good mentally to finally make a particular tech section that has been kicking your ass for months. Mountain bikes are a beautiful thing. If you are overweight, injured, a crotchety old man like me, or lack the physical fitness to pedal a bike, then buy an eBike. Do whatever it takes to get yourself on the trail and towards developing your skills and stamina. You can always switch to a pedal bike. The thing is, if your hurting badly when pedaling a bike, or it feels like torture, then you won't want to ride the bike and you'll park it in the garage where it'll gather dust and make a great clothes hanger. This is the greatest sin of them all.

Use what ever it takes to get you out on the trail with your buds. When it's gone, you'll miss it. If it takes an eBike to get your started, it's all good. There's a catch....always a catch. If you buy an eBike, you have to pedal it and put in the work. Pedal hard, don't cheat by riding in Boost mode 100% of the time. People will respect you when you put in the work. Ride in Eco mode and suffer a bit. Works towards using less and less power. Take a ride with the power turned off. Develop your leg muscles and cardio. Don't blow by people like their standing still. Ride with them.

P.S., I'm riding Hurricane in September with my buddies, the Goose is Loose.

Be safe,
Rod

Note the nice sock tan line and bone sticking out. As a mountain biker, never wear ankle socks....Rock the tan line.










Things started going sideways









My leg and ankle was in a brace for three months. It sucked sleeping with this on.









My new custom ankle









Gooseberry Mesa









Kokopelli


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Awesome story, Rod B! Thanks for taking the time to share it! Glad you are back having FUN on a mountain bike&#8230;yes, an eMTB, but a MOUNTAIN BIKE!! 

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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Wow, amazing story and best luck to you!

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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Flyer said:


> One bike and to build fitness...regular bike. Maybe that was decided already but it is pretty obvious. E-bike as a second bike has some uses- faster rides, fun/easy rides, recovery rides, rides with other E-bikers, etc. I have not ridden mine but once this year but I'm training for some big rides, so I do that on all my regular bikes. I'll add it back in this Fall.





Flyer said:


> DtEW- that may make zero sense to YOU but not to me. You can't constantly dial in and out the needed power level. It is totally diff on flat ground, on a 5% grade, on a 10% grade, and on a 15% grade. It would be impossible to do that and mimic a 28 lb regular mountain bike at each varying point. It simply is not doable. I have tried. Keep it on a super low level on the flats and then it becomes a heavier and heavier pig on each progressive climb. The handling is way off, and it is impossible to replicate.
> 
> Maybe it is easier on something like the Rise or Levo SL but you still will need to mess with all the settings and customize it to just three different gradients. If you keep it on the adaptive or Trail setting, it is simply too easy to ride. I have played with it a lot and it is great fun for me except I can't really train with it and I hate the handling of heavier bikes. I'll use it for recovery rides and days when I want to just go along for a fun ride with the motor doing enough of the work. My main riding buddies don't ride Es so I just stick to my regular bike on group rides.
> 
> I actually have a Specialized road/gravel E too, and it will be up for sale soon. I can customize it a bit better than the MTB but I find myself using it for the recovery rides only. Similarly, none of my riding buddies use Es on the road and while it has been great fun running away form the race teams once in a while, it is too pricey for just that. Of course, your experience may be vastly different that mine with two e-bikes over the last year to year and a half.


Wait, after I decimated your attempted point about "building fitness", you're moving the goalposts to "make it simulate a nonelectric bike to the point of indistinguishability"?

I think I need to remind you that you were arguing that one needs to keep a nonelectric MTB "to build fitness" while insinuating that the eMTB is somehow not as suited to building fitness. I've quoted it again to remind everyone that is your argument. This is all despite the fact that you can easily set your eMTB to give you a _harder workout_ all-around. Or just imperfectly simulate a nonelectric MTB so it is about the same on the flats, but harder on the climb ("keep it on a super low level on the flats and then it becomes a heavier and heavier pig on each progressive climb", _well isn't that a great workout???_). Or split the difference so it is a only a little easier on the flat, and only a little harder on the climb. That can all be done with fairly-easy-to-accomplish fine-tuning.

At this point you seemed to have abandoned that argument and have quietly sidled up the idea that you need the eMTB to either work exactly like a nonelectric bike, or you can only make it easier... and therefore it's not as good of a workout. Which is pretty much the worst false choice anybody can construct in a debate for its obviousness to anybody except the deep partisans.

An eMTB can give you an easy workout, a very hard workout (i.e. harder than that of a nonelectric MTB), and everything in-between, depending on how you set it. While it would be hard-pressed to give you the exact combination of traits of a nonelectric bike (an eMTB is, after all, 10-to-20 pounds heavier)... building fitness is not an argument that justifies a nonelectric bike over an eMTB.

I mean... I can take your argument and extend it to featherweight singlespeeds. That the only bike you should have "to build fitness" is a featherweight singlespeed. You'll never find just the right gearing on a geared bike to replicate its exact feel on flats or climbs... and that the handling will be "way off". Hopefully, it should be apparent to you at this point that your are actually fixated on something that you have not actually voiced... because it is much less convincing than pretending it's anything about "building fitness".


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Rod B. said:


> It's been interesting reading the various responses to the Fixer 24's original question. A few of the comments are from people whom I suspect have never ridden an eBike. I've ridden both types of bike and would like to add my input.
> 
> In October 2019, I had a bad crash. I double dislocated my ankle. The Tibia exited on the side of my leg taking the main artery, nerves and big toe tendon with it. I literally destroyed my right ankle. I recall the ER doctor telling me that I had dislocated my ankle, but didn't break anything. I was visibly relieved. The doctor said "No, you don't get it. On a scale of one to ten, you did an 11 on the damage scale. The doctors seriously considered amputating my foot. I was like WTF......let's talk about this.
> 
> ...


Wow, what a story and so glad to have you back out there. And you are/ were a really youthful looking 61 year old and very accomplished rider! Sheesh.

That said, if I had a nickel for every time a plenty young enough person to get bike fit explained to me about the injured war Vet that can only ride because of their e-bike, seemingly unaware that they in fact are personally definitely NOT a handicapped Vet, I'd have enough for a Starbucks + tip at least.

I fully support allowing motorized vehicles to have access for those with the appropriate medical letter in non-motorized areas. Severe injuries, truly old age, handicapped, 1 lung, amputee, etc... In the exact same way that an electric wheelchair should have full access in non-motorized areas.

But using the .001% as a justification for the reality of e-bikes (young fit guys that just want to go faster) is absurd.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> I fully support allowing motorized vehicles to have access for those with the appropriate medical letter


They don't need a letter, just have to state that they have a mobility disability.

Entities may not ask an individual using a wheelchair or OPDMD about the nature or extent of his or her disability. They may, however, ask a person using an OPDMD to provide a credible assurance that the mobility device is required because of a mobility disability, by either:
Showing a valid, state-issued, disability parking placard or card or other state-issued proof of a disability, or
Verbally stating that the OPDMD is being used by a person with a mobility disability (as long as the statement does not contradict observable fact).


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> young fit guys that just want to go faster


We should talk about this. Why is this inherently bad? Because going faster is more dangerous to other trail users and causes more trail degradation?

Because that is disingenuous in the face of the fact that:

1) Going _downhill_ is unquestionably the act that produces the fastest speeds (and hence the most dangerous/most-trail-degrading act) in mountain biking, and no eMTB motor will approach these speeds in question...
2) The Class I eMTB motor is _designed_ to be mostly irrelevant for downhills because its pedal-actuated nature is inherently limiting on the fastest downhills, and is _designed_ to cut-out before the point most people (not to mention "young fit guys") can keep accelerating on leg power alone on mild downhills...
3) The adaptation from motorized vehicles that has enabled ever-greater downhill speeds (and hence increasing the danger/trail-degradation abilities of the MTB) is that of *suspension*.
4) If one is to argue that the problem is that of increased speed differentials between a downhiller and an uphiller, it also needs to be considered that not only does the uphiller have the right-of-way, but that his/her speeds are much lower than that of the downhiller... even with assist. If anything needs to be regulated, it is the party that contributes greater to the overall risk, not to mention the one that is supposed to be more-in-control because they are required to defer right-of-way in almost every instance.

If speed is bad for matters of safety and trail-degradation, then you should be fighting to ban/regulate suspension before you even consider arguing against Class I eMTB motors, which is the (considerably) lesser contributor to the problem of trail safety/wear. Unless the real issue is that assisted uphill speed is a threat to one's ego.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Your're overthinking and overanalyzing my response. Let me be more concise. If one bike, a regular bike it is. Why, I build better fitness. If I wanted it to "simulate" a regular bike, it would suck and defeat the while purpose of an e-bike. It would take the fun out of it too. I do own two e-bikes...a Pivot Shuttle and a Creo SL. My fitness does suffer when I ride them a lot and I almost never use the highest setting. I usually use the lowest with the middle at times. Yup, that was it.



DtEW said:


> Wait, after I decimated your attempted point about "building fitness", you're moving the goalposts to "make it simulate a nonelectric bike to the point of indistinguishability"?
> 
> I think I need to remind you that you were arguing that one needs to keep a nonelectric MTB "to build fitness" while insinuating that the eMTB is somehow not as suited to building fitness. I've quoted it again to remind everyone that is your argument. This is all despite the fact that you can easily set your eMTB to give you a _harder workout_ all-around. Or just imperfectly simulate a nonelectric MTB so it is about the same on the flats, but harder on the climb ("keep it on a super low level on the flats and then it becomes a heavier and heavier pig on each progressive climb", _well isn't that a great workout???_). Or split the difference so it is a only a little easier on the flat, and only a little harder on the climb. That can all be done with fairly-easy-to-accomplish fine-tuning.
> 
> ...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Land managers as a group land fully in the 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% segment of the population that don't GAF about any of your fitness geekery.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Land managers as a group land fully in the 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% segment of the population that don't GAF about any of your fitness geekery.


78.3% of all quoted statistics on the internet are false.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Rod B. I hope you heal up fully, man. That was brutal and in your case, an e-bike like the Rise is the perfect option. Glad you are getting back into it. Holy moly! You went through some some awful times with this crash. All the best.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RickBullottaPA said:


> 78.3% of all quoted statistics on the internet are false.


I erred heavily on the side of caution in my estimate. 
Obviously, there are actually far, far less people who care.


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## Fixer24 (Jul 28, 2021)

OMFG! I just came back to this thread today and have I ever triggered a discussion?
According to the UPS tracker, my Bronson CR will be delivered tomorrow!


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## Nick_M (Jan 16, 2015)

Fixer24 said:


> Hello all, I'm new to mtn biking and the forum, but I've recently started riding local trails with friends and wondering why I never got into this earlier! Anyway, we want to start visiting bike parks in our area but I'm interested in possibly purchasing a full suspension bike. I currently have a Cujo Neo ebike hard tail that I'm having a lot of fun on but after riding my friends bike I'm wondering about getting a full suspension bike. But my question to you guys is should I go ebike or non ebike? Looking at probably a Scott Genius eride 920, or a Santa Cruz Bronson and I'd be using the bike mostly in the parks.
> Any help would be appreciated!


In case you ride lift assisted terrain- regular bike, in case you will be pedaling uphil - ebike

Ideally have both, ebike for local trails, dh rig for park days;

All who bitching about ebikes - never rode them, this allows you to have 3x downhill fun per day comparing to regular bike;

Cheers


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

My e-bike is fun and contributes to my fitness. My bike is also fun and contributes to my fitness. They are not exactly the same kind of fun, but very closely related...about 99.9999999999999% similar.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Fixer24 said:


> OMFG! I just came back to this thread today and have I ever triggered a discussion?
> According to the UPS tracker, my Bronson CR will be delivered tomorrow!


That is a cool bike. 29/27.5 I think. Enjoy it! Santa Cruz has really stepped up their game in recent years.


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## Rod B. (Jul 28, 2021)

mlx john said:


> My e-bike is fun and contributes to my fitness. My bike is also fun and contributes to my fitness. They are not exactly the same kind of fun, but very closely related...about 99.9999999999999% similar.





waltaz said:


> Awesome story, Rod B! Thanks for taking the time to share it! Glad you are back having FUN on a mountain bike&#8230;yes, an eMTB, but a MOUNTAIN BIKE!!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thank you, it's been a journey. Hope to see everybody on the trail.


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## Rod B. (Jul 28, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> Wow, what a story and so glad to have you back out there. And you are/ were a really youthful looking 61 year old and very accomplished rider! Sheesh.
> 
> That said, if I had a nickel for every time a plenty young enough person to get bike fit explained to me about the injured war Vet that can only ride because of their e-bike, seemingly unaware that they in fact are personally definitely NOT a handicapped Vet, I'd have enough for a Starbucks + tip at least.
> 
> ...


Suns PSD, I look young because I've made it a habit to avoid IPA beers. My buddies love IPA beers, there's no accounting for taste these days. I might add that the Copper Club Brewery in Fruita has some excellent non IPA beers to knock the trail dust off.

My buddies and I were in Tahoe on the Rim Trail, dropping down to Armstrong and Corral Trails. We came across four older guys hammering away at the rocks sections on eBikes. I had a talk with one of the guys who'd gone over the bars when he stuck a wheel. The guy pointed out he was a veteran and 79 years old. He said they were celebrating his birthday. He said he didn't like IPA beers either. The guy was my hero, I want to be like him when I grow up.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

Rod B. said:


> Suns PSD, I look young because I've made it a habit to avoid IPA beers. My buddies love IPA beers, there's no accounting for taste these days. I might add that the Copper Club Brewery in Fruita has some excellent non IPA beers to knock the trail dust off.
> 
> My buddies and I were in Tahoe on the Rim Trail, dropping down to Armstrong and Corral Trails. We came across four older guys hammering away at the rocks sections on eBikes. I had a talk with one of the guys who'd gone over the bars when he stuck a wheel. The guy pointed out he was a veteran and 79 years old. He said they were celebrating his birthday. He said he didn't like IPA beers either. *The guy was my hero, I want to be like him when I grow up.*


You can't do both. You cannot be like him AND grow up.


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## Rod B. (Jul 28, 2021)

SkiTalk'er said:


> You can't do both. You cannot be like him AND grow up.


Very true...Okay, how bout this....I don't want to grow up....and when I'm 79, I want to still be hammering away at the rock sections, like my hero, the 79 year old dude.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

FYI: Thomas Jefferson says you're obligated to ride your eMTB wherever you want.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Wow, what did I miss? Nothing..🥴 The OP is going to have that Bronson on PB within a year and rocking a Bullit! Jk- y’all relax. I’ve ridden solely Ebikes since 2016 and will never purchase a normal bike again. They are just way to fun. If I want to get a workout, I’ll slam a few Jack Daniels, chase with a beer, then order some wings! (After I’ve checked my V02 from my ride of course)


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## RDO (Apr 26, 2016)

I have just as much fun on an "acoustic" bike. It's not only about the workout, but also the lightness, flickabllity and simplicity. I have had a Creo for almost a year and a Levo sl for several months, and today I'm picking up a new Santa Cruz Blur. They will all happily co-exist.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

RDO said:


> I have just as much fun on an "acoustic" bike. It's not only about the workout, but also the lightness, flickabllity and simplicity. I have had a Creo for almost a year and a Levo sl for several months, and today I'm picking up a new Santa Cruz Blur. They will all happily co-exist.


New bike day! Sweet. Nothing like it.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

RDO said:


> It's not only about the workout, but also the lightness, flickabllity and simplicity.


I love the idea of picking up a light hardtail for taking to the park...but I know myself enough that I will be bored with it shortly after.


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