# The real story about inexpensive lights



## off road rider (Mar 29, 2008)

HI Guys/Gals
It is Darryl from Cyclops Motorsports/ Adventure sports. Based out of the Pacific NW
We have been in business since 02
Threw the years I have used MTBR for info on developing a line of Bicycle lights. To add to our very successful Moto Based line.
We have been trusted by the best Moto riders in the world and manufacture much of what we offer. You can check us out on any moto related forum. Customer service and satifaction is our top priority.
After much thought and work we decided that we would put out an entry level (inexpensive) LED light. WE do not intend to compete with the higher priced lights from Niterider, Baja Designs, etc.This is a great light, but It is not the best available. Hense the price point.. We are also a BD dealer and will have the striker online soon.
We worked with a Chinese supplier and specked the light you see below. It Has been out since July of 2010 and it was our intention to work with distributors and dealers so that we can support the local shops. We have done that, But do to some less than honest distribution issues we now find that it is best to go consumer direct..
I about hit the floor when I saw the Gemini post:madman: . So Game on
The manufacturing agreement was for Cyclops and Bikeray us to be the sole distributing channels in the USA
Although you have seen another post with a similar looking light. I can guarantee you ours is different and made to ours specs. The biggest being the Hermetically sealed batteries and the fact that we are using the p7 D bin emitter.
These are things That Cyclops specked into our production run.
All these lights where made by Bigger Tech/ Bikeray. Anyone that says different has either copied the design or is lying.:nono: . You be the judge..
To the dealers we have setup already. I will personally make it up to you.
All this is not good for the shops or really for you end consumers either. But as Americans we all want more for less.
Cyclops Adventure sports will be advertising on MTBR and has been in contact with the powers that be for some time. Look for our add to show up soon.
We have learned our lesson here on development and will make changes in the future.
So here is our offer
Our complete ADV light LED kit 130.00 with Free shipping in the cont US..
2 year warranty on the light head 1 year on the batteries.


----------



## betweenrides (Oct 19, 2010)

Looks exactly like the Gemini Titan - are you saying that is a lifted design?


----------



## Prexus2005 (Mar 18, 2005)

^^

... and for $130, Gemini offers a couple more items not seen in your photo, ie, head strap and hard storage box. Not saying I care about those 2 items which are just fluff.

Will let you guys sort it out...


----------



## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

For those of us a little less knowledgeable about the differences in emitters, what is the advantage of the D over the C emitter?


----------



## off road rider (Mar 29, 2008)

betweenrides said:


> Looks exactly like the Gemini Titan - are you saying that is a lifted design?


 Thats exactly what I'm saying..If they claim to be the manufactures..It certainly is possible they bought from BiggerTech.. either way they are full of crap.


----------



## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

I had an old Cyclops back in the day. Are you in Kent?


----------



## off road rider (Mar 29, 2008)

BlownCivic said:


> For those of us a little less knowledgeable about the differences in emitters, what is the advantage of the D over the C emitter?


 In a nut shell the P7 emitter will provide morel lumen's at the same amp rating.


----------



## off road rider (Mar 29, 2008)

gticlay said:


> I had an old Cyclops back in the day. Are you in Kent?


 Yes that is us.. I imagine your talking about the original MC Halogen.. Still very popular with the snowmobile crowd.


----------



## off road rider (Mar 29, 2008)

Prexus2005 said:


> ^^
> 
> ... and for $130, Gemini offers a couple more items not seen in your photo, ie, head strap and hard storage box. Not saying I care about those 2 items which are just fluff.
> 
> Will let you guys sort it out...


 I'm sure the Gemini group are good people. Something went askew here . 
Since we had the light first there have been a few add ons. Our offer includes free shipping and backed by a known American company.


----------



## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

off road rider said:


> In a nut shell the P7 emitter will provide morel lumen's at the same amp rating.


I'm asking about the difference between the P7 C and the P7 D emitters.


----------



## sd_sparky (Jun 27, 2010)

I just went to the website and this light is listed for $224.95 and $9.95 shipping, NOT $130.00 and free shipping.


----------



## Snapster (Dec 19, 2006)

Ok, so I'm ready to order, do you have a code for your website?


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

BlownCivic said:


> I'm asking about the difference between the P7 C and the P7 D emitters.


The D-bin is better. Brighter and better tint. If I was choosing which of the two to buy I would buy the one with the D-bin if that is offered.

Now about this "Who's First situation": * How and the heck are we to know who is actually first with the design?* Now if you have patents to the design that is a matter for the lawyers to sort out. To me it looks like it was made at the same manufacture as the Gemini. I'm sure nobody likes to have their product cloned but it happens all the time. Why not just sell the product and forget about trying to start a pissing war. Right now there are a handful of P-7 based lights out there to compete against. I say move on and just forget about it. Let the consumers sort it out. If you want to start a war let be with a price gun.

Anyway, to me it looks like more is going on here than meets the eye. Just remember, when the MagicShine came out there also followed a bunch of other MS clones that looked just like the MS. I think this could just be a case of "What goes around, comes around".


----------



## off road rider (Mar 29, 2008)

Cat-man-do said:


> The D-bin is better. Brighter and better tint. If I was choosing which of the two to buy I would buy the one with the D-bin if that is offered.
> 
> Now about this "Who's First situation": * How and the heck are we to know who is actually first with the design?* Now if you have patents to the design that is a matter for the lawyers to sort out. To me it looks like it was made at the same manufacture as the Gemini. I'm sure nobody likes to have their product cloned but it happens all the time. Why not just sell the product and forget about trying to start a pissing war. Right now there are a handful of P-7 based lights out there to compete against. I say move on and just forget about it. Let the consumers sort it out. If you want to start a war let be with a price gun.
> 
> Anyway, to me it looks like more is going on here than meets the eye. Just remember, when the MagicShine came out there also followed a bunch of other MS clones that looked just like the MS. I think this could just be a case of "What goes around, comes around".


 Thanks for answering the diff in the d anc c bin P7 emitters, I brain farted my response.
As far as who was first, Believe what you want. as far as a pissing match then absolutely I will.Why? A deal is a Deal.. Say you purchased A large # of lights with an understanding you and 1 other would have the exclusive in the states.Everyone has worked out pricing and there is a general plan in place. Then before you get any traction, some one comes along and undercuts what you are doing in a large way..And F's up the entire Plan.
I think you might also be a bit pissed off. This will cause our setup dealers pain.and be a tarnish on my company when we bring out our next bicycle light .
And yes there is more behind the scenes. So you can chose a Proven US company or a Canadian start up. The choice is yours..But we will defend our Agreements wouldn't you??


----------



## nick d (May 25, 2007)

sd_sparky said:


> I just went to the website and this light is listed for $224.95 and $9.95 shipping, NOT $130.00 and free shipping.


yup, i dont see anything for 130, this is the light shown above right?

http://www.cyclopsadventuresports.com/?page=products&id=96


----------



## off road rider (Mar 29, 2008)

sd_sparky said:


> I just went to the website and this light is listed for $224.95 and $9.95 shipping, NOT $130.00 and free shipping.


 Yes that was the Price before we had to cut out all our great dealers. Not something I take lightly... Out of respect to them, I am leaving the price on the website as is until I can personally contact them.
By Monday afternoon it will be priced accordingly per this post.
We will be using MTBR as a discount code That will give you the 130 and free shipping.
In the mean time you can call 1 800 624 0278. and receive the 130 price..
We hope to have our add up asap.. I also dont like spam


----------



## Oatbag (Jun 25, 2010)

off road rider said:


> So you can chose a Proven US company or a Canadian start up. The choice is yours..


Given as how I am Canadian (as well as quite a few other forum users) being a US company isn't always seen as being an advantage. Not having to ship across the border is a nice bonus.


----------



## odtexas (Oct 2, 2008)

off road rider said:


> Thanks for answering the diff in the d anc c bin P7 emitters, I brain farted my response.
> As far as who was first, Believe what you want. as far as a pissing match then absolutely I will.Why? A deal is a Deal.. Say you purchased A large # of lights with an understanding you and 1 other would have the exclusive in the states.Everyone has worked out pricing and there is a general plan in place. Then before you get any traction, some one comes along and undercuts what you are doing in a large way..And F's up the entire Plan.
> I think you might also be a bit pissed off. This will cause our setup dealers pain.and be a tarnish on my company when we bring out our next bicycle light .
> And yes there is more behind the scenes. So you can chose a Proven US company or a Canadian start up. The choice is yours..But we will defend our Agreements wouldn't you??


Take Cat's advice and tone down the indignation. 
The original rip off occured when these Lupines clones started showing up. 
There is a big market looking to buy lights and with the magic shine sort of out of the picture currently you have a good shot at picking up some of that demand.
Worry about things the consumers actually care about.
1) Light
2) Price
3) Customer service
4) Warranty
5) US Company standing behind product warranty.

That's all you need. The rest is internal issues/drama that your company has to deal with. Airing that in public will just put off consumers.


----------



## Gemini Lights (Sep 20, 2010)

Hello from Gemini,

Off course we are watching. Just to let you know that Gemini Industries does not supply this retailer. We know exactly the manufacturer of this light and all the background story.

Other than that a PM has already been send to the retailer and I will take personal care that we will communicate with each other very soon.

Greets, 
Vag



odtexas said:


> Take Cat's advice and tone down the indignation.
> The original rip off occured when these Lupines clones started showing up.
> There is a big market looking to buy lights and with the magic shine sort of out of the picture currently you have a good shot at picking up some of that demand.
> Worry about things the consumers actually care about.
> ...


----------



## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

I have plenty of popcorn, this might get good.


----------



## Prexus2005 (Mar 18, 2005)

I agree with *odtexas*, there is a big market with people looking to purchase lights right now esp with Magicshine having issues.

I am disappointed with Gemini in that you guys still have not answered a lot of the questions from the other thread in terms of providing manufactur info on the components and more importantly, decent beam shots of the lights.

With the MTBR shootout going on right now, there is no excuse for your lights not to be included for review unless you are worried that it's inferior?

So focus on MARKETING the light to us! If you believe you have a great product, back it up with performance claims/photos etc, give us an incentive to purchase at an discounted intro price, and if people are happy with the lights, word of mouth advertising from these first customers will take care of the rest. Just look at how popular MagicShine was!

I don't know if you guys are the point person for advertising/marketing in your companies... I hope not, because I'd fire you both!


----------



## Gemini Lights (Sep 20, 2010)

Hey Prexus,

Should I consider myself fired. hehe

I think you just missed the beam shots. They are there and they are the more decent as they can be, using exactly the specifications that mtbr.com uses for their shootouts.

As for the techs we still need to post about the batteries. We did not do it all this time because we were improving our batery pack even more, Really soon news about batteries will be posted. Do I miss something more?

We are going to be in the shootout 

Greets
Vag



Prexus2005 said:


> I agree with *odtexas*, there is a big market with people looking to purchase lights right now esp with Magicshine having issues.
> 
> I am disappointed with Gemini in that you guys still have not answered a lot of the questions from the other thread in terms of providing manufactur info on the components and more importantly, decent beam shots of the lights.
> 
> ...


----------



## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

SuperJETT said:


> I have plenty of popcorn, this might get good.


Indeed.

Same deal as the MS, resellers claiming they exclusively sell a higher grade product. Probably come out of the same factory.
Do the batteries catch fire?

Undercutting your own retailers ... :nono: 
ps Cyclops you need to edit your advertising to say "900 lumens LED" rather than "provides 900 lumen's of High Intensity light " because there is a big difference.

ps, same light available in NZ for 110US$ since april
https://www.glowormlites.co.nz/product.htm


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 28, 2007)

off road rider,

Feel free to vent about how you got hozed by China, I'm about to.



off road rider said:


> Say you purchased A large # of lights with an understanding you and 1 other would have the exclusive in the states.Everyone has worked out pricing and there is a general plan in place. Then before you get any traction, some one comes along and undercuts what you are doing in a large way..And F's up the entire Plan.
> I think you might also be a bit pissed off.


Well if you substitute the sentence about buying a large number of lights and a marketing understanding with "Say you spent several thousands of dollars and many hundreds of hours designing and engineering a high quality bike light that would sell for less than all the big brands." you could be describing my hobby business (www.hahntronix.com) for the last couple years. Or the hobby businesses of many folks who shared ideas on the DIY lighting forum: http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=124

Welcome to Amerikan Kapitalism meets Chinese Kapitalism (course number 101)! Boy does it suck. No pesky intellectual property laws or worries about product liability for the manufacturer, lots of problems for the distributor (search for some of the MagicShine battery recall threads on these forums for an example of a distributor who got hozed), and impossible competition pricing for manufacturers based outside China.

Your light is a better Chinese copy of a cheap Chinese copy of the German designed Tesla (that sounds like a line about Walther 22 caliber pistols from William Gibson's "Neuromancer"). Which makes your complaining about your design being ripped off seem a bit interesting 

I think odtexas missed a couple of things from his list of things bikers care about (I'm not saying my concerns need to be numbers 1, 2 and 3, but they should be on the list):

1 - quality
Lights should last more than a couple of seasons. I suspect you are using a variant of the original MagicShine driver. If not, please disregard the rest of this point. If you are using a LED that can run 50000 hours, it should last several years, if not a couple generations. If you want the advice of some professional electrical engineers on how to make your headlight electronics suck less, contact some of the folks in the DIY forum who did the original dissection of the MagicShine (full disclosure: I posted on that forum, if you don't want to hire me, I'm OK with that). I'm sure you can find somebody who will help you upgrade the stock you have on hand to make it last longer than a couple of seasons.

2 - safety
Build lighting systems that don't burst into flames. Even if it only happens to a very small percentage of users, that's not acceptable. That's why I sell NiMh batteries and smart UL approved NiMh chargers with my lights. NiMh got a bad rap after people tried treating them like NiCads. NiCads handle abuse and just keep working. Early NiMh lighting systems just sold stupid chargers with the batteries that fried the cells if you forgot to unplug them. NiMh batteries die if you overcharge them or over-discharge them. That's why I sell a smart charger with my lights. The charger is designed to detect when the battery is fully charged and then stop. I'm happy to tell folks how to buy or build a Li-Ion battery to use with my lights if that's what they want, but I'm not interested in selling something that can bankrupt me if I get shipped substandard parts. I really think you should reconsider selling inexpensive Li-Ion cells with your lights. At the price point you are selling your lights for you are probably only getting the inexpensive Li-Ion cells (I could be wrong, but I've seen the MagicShine 500 quantity pricing brochure... I can't buy parts to build a Li-Ion battery and charging system from legitimate US distributors in quantity 10000 for what they sell a whole light with battery system for). In my opinion, even the expensive name brand Li-Ion batteries are more of a risk than they are worth.

3- honesty
Your D bin P7 lights that you claim to be 900 lumens are probably closer to 770 lumens if measured with a fairly expensive lumen integrating sphere meter. It's OK to claim 900 lumens if you at least say this is a theoretical maximum output assuming perfect 100% efficient optics, but you should at least de-rate the actual output to an 85% or so level if you don't do the actual measurement.

I've abandoned the low-end sub 600 lumen market to the Chinese. They can sell complete systems for less than it costs a US manufacturer to buy the parts (even in large quantity). I've decided to focus on higher power lights or lights that fill a niche: very light-weight, more user options. a wider variety of power sources, etc.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm venting at you, but you are not the only person burned by the Chinese concept of free enterprise. I wish you luck trying to sell your lights.

If my post seems harsh on all Chinese companies, I apologize. Some provide excellent service and products. I know. I've dealt with Chinese companies who've built products I've designed. Most have been honest and fair. But the ones who promise a product at a price that seems too good to be true ... well, buyer beware.

Mark


----------



## odtexas (Oct 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I think odtexas missed a couple of things
> 
> *2 - safety*


You have seen how I make my lights right? My definition of safety is somewhat skewed.ut:

But you do make excellent points in all seriousness.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 28, 2007)

odtexas,

I was commenting on safety for the customer, not the poor SOB who actually built the light.

You should really look at sliding compound miter saws for some of the cuts you make. My understanding is the blade pushes the piece against the fence, not away from it. But I'm an electrical engineer, so what do I know about the mechanical stuff  

Mark


----------



## Prexus2005 (Mar 18, 2005)

Vag, show me links to the beam shots that is not:



Gemini Rides said:


> Hello,
> 
> I was in the park last Friday and made (as promised) some Beamshots of the light. The settings of the camera where the same as in the MTBR test (https://www.mtbr.com/trailbeamcomparisoncrx.aspx) which means:
> Camera Settings: Setting-full manual, ISO-100, Exposure-6 seconds, Aperture-F4.0, Focus-Manual, White Balance-Daylight
> ...


...not too bad but photo too small and there is no side by side with another light for reference.

or



Gemini Rides said:


> Just thought to share some photos posted by somebody who tried our product already.
> 
> https://sk8t.pinkbike.com/album/Gemini-Titan-LED-light/


...these are just horrible photos.

So.. did I miss anything?

The 2011 light shootout has been going on for at least a couple of weeks now, I do not see Gemini mentioned anywhere. Going to be in there "soon" is not good enough. And I am tired of all the "will get back to you soon" type replies from "New Magicshine Competitor for Hong Kong https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=662610

I took my time and offered ideas for you to better market your product and this is what I get?

Yeah, You're fired!

off road rider,

Now, if you are smart, get your lights to Francois for the shootout review/beam shot comparison ASAP!


----------



## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

I pass on the companies that get into public pissing matches.


----------



## Gemini Lights (Sep 20, 2010)

Hello,

For your information a Light is already in its way to Francois.

Regarding the photos. From my experience in forums posting big files is not user friendly. 
Big photos will be posted tonight.

Regarding the other shooting, which I suppose that the forum comment "this is just horrible photos" was reffering it was made from somebody who bought our light. This guy also included some photos of the packaging and product in his profile and I thought it would be great to share with the forum.

Regarding comparison, I am sorry but this is not my job. This is the job of other stakeholders such as independant reviewers. What is my job is to present our product and to feed with information this forum and other mediums as well.

You have a point for the "get back to you soon". Unfortunately you will have to be few more hours patient. Already some of the "get back to you soon" issues are addressed, such as the full refund and more are coming.

On the other hand I do believe that Gemini presence in this forum is very honest. Yes, in some cases our responses are not immediate but that happens because we really work on your reccomendations and follow them up.

Being the manufacturer is a great responsibility. All our responses should be precise and be a result of hard work.

Thank you and all who contributed for your feedback and ideas till now. Be sure we are following them up.

greets
Vag
On behalf of the Gemini Team



Prexus2005 said:


> Vag, show me links to the beam shots that is not:
> 
> ...not too bad but photo too small and there is no side by side with another light for reference.
> 
> ...


----------



## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

odtexas said:


> Take Cat's advice and tone down the indignation.
> *The original rip off occured when these Lupines clones started showing up*.
> There is a big market looking to buy lights and with the magic shine sort of out of the picture currently you have a good shot at picking up some of that demand.
> Worry about things the consumers actually care about.
> ...


+1


----------



## norcalchico (Dec 25, 2006)

[
I just got my light and plan on a ride tomorrow. I will post beam shots. Ill try to post on here but I have a blog that you can check out the lights on also.
So far they look really good to me. I own a niterider trinewt and the side by side comparison the Gemini Titan is a lot brighter.

QUOTE=Prexus2005]Vag, show me links to the beam shots that is not:

...not too bad but photo too small and there is no side by side with another light for reference.

or

...these are just horrible photos.

So.. did I miss anything?

The 2011 light shootout has been going on for at least a couple of weeks now, I do not see Gemini mentioned anywhere. Going to be in there "soon" is not good enough. And I am tired of all the "will get back to you soon" type replies from "New Magicshine Competitor for Hong Kong http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=662610

I took my time and offered ideas for you to better market your product and this is what I get?

Yeah, You're fired!

off road rider,

Now, if you are smart, get your lights to Francois for the shootout review/beam shot comparison ASAP![/QUOTE]


----------



## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

There are some large claims being thrown around in this thread.


----------



## KingOfTheHill (Sep 19, 2007)




----------



## random walk (Jan 12, 2010)

^^^ A little too throwy. But you'd never get stuck behind a slowpoke with one of those on your bars.


----------



## nick d (May 25, 2007)

BBW said:


> +1


:thumbsup: 
+2

all the bad blood doesnt make me want to buy a light from either company.

whoever takes the high road, stands behind the product, and has competitive prices will come out ahead in the end.


----------



## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

off road rider said:


> Customer service and satifaction is our top priority.
> ...
> The biggest being the Hermetically sealed batteries and the fact that we are using the p7 D bin emitter.
> ...
> ...


Seems like a good offering. As some of the others said, focus on the positive benefits of your product to the customer and save the drama for your mama. Make sure you have good safe batteries, upgrade the spec with the proper components in the driver, and get in the MTBR Shootout. If your product proves favorable, it will develop a good following. But do note that you should have been here a few months ago if you wanted to establish yourself this season. Anyway, best of luck...


----------



## odtexas (Oct 2, 2008)

nick d said:


> whoever takes the high road, stands behind the product, and has competitive prices will come out ahead in the end.


Isn't Geomangear known for this sort of thing..................


----------



## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

odtexas said:


> Isn't Geomangear known for this sort of thing..................


:thumbsup:


----------



## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

All these new lights look like a Magicshine shell game to me.

What will the MTBR threads look like this time next year?... I wonder.


----------



## rootmaster (Jun 8, 2009)

One very common practices in certain factories in certain parts of world (you can guess) is to have special "nighttime" production runs. In the day they manufacture to spec and under QA/QC and licensing control and oversight of the contracting company. At night, they make the counterfeit parts, often from components rejected from the QA process in the day.

Those handbags you see in Manhattan sold on street that look just like the designer bags, well guess what? In some cases they ARE the same bags. 

This may be what some people are seeing with some of these products.


----------



## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

lidarman said:


> All these new lights look like a Magicshine shell game to me.
> 
> What will the MTBR threads look like this time next year?... I wonder.


I also think it will be the "same song, second verse". But will these guys step up to the plate on the batteries at that time? They don't strike me as being the type.


----------



## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

rootmaster said:


> One very common practices in certain factories in certain parts of world (you can guess) is to have special "nighttime" production runs. In the day they manufacture to spec and under QA/QC and licensing control and oversight of the contracting company. At night, they make the counterfeit parts, often from components rejected from the QA process in the day.


There's also common practice when dealing with factories in all parts of the world where a manufacturer works with a designer to develop a product to the designer's specifications... Typically this is done with a promise from the manufacturer to produce the new design _exclusively for that designer_. Designing products takes time and money, and that exclusivity gives the designer a reason to believe that if they do a good job, they can charge a premium for the product, in order to recover that initial investment.

In certain parts of the world (you can guess) it's fairly common for the manufacturer to violate that exclusivity agreement. So now the designer who made that investment now finds himself competing with random third-party resellers who have no up-front investment to recover. Since the development costs were paid by someone else, these new resellers can make a reasonable profit with very little markup. The actual designer then has to lower his prices in order to sell the product that he designed, leaving him with little or no hope of ever recovering that initial investment.

I'm sure it's especially painful when that designer has spent lots of time setting up a distribution network, promising the resellers in his own network that they can retail the product for $X, where X = initial production cost + amortized development cost + designer's profit margin + retailer profit margin. Because when a third-party retailer starts advertising the same product for production cost + retailer margin, the designer and his distribution partners are pretty much screwed.

I've watched it happen with aftermarket car parts.

Sure sounds like it just happened again with bike lights.


----------



## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

gmcttr said:


> I also think it will be the "same song, second verse". But will these guys step up to the plate on the batteries at that time? They don't strike me as being the type.


I gotta say, if Geoman sends me a new battery pack, I'm going to be doing business with them for a *long *time. They're in a position where the easy (and maybe even _sensible_) thing to do would be to dissolve the company and/or go into bankruptcy. And I wouldn't fault them one bit for taking that exit - they simply got screwed by their battery supplier.

So, if they pull off this recall-and-replace thing, I hope they follow up by expanding their product line, just so I can have more opportunities to do business with them in the future.


----------



## nick d (May 25, 2007)

odtexas said:


> Isn't Geomangear known for this sort of thing..................


exaclty, thats why i got my 2 light sets from him :thumbsup:


----------



## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

NWS said:


> I gotta say, if Geoman sends me a new battery pack, I'm going to be doing business with them for a *long *time. They're in a position where the easy (and maybe even _sensible_) thing to do would be to dissolve the company and/or go into bankruptcy. And I wouldn't fault them one bit for taking that exit - they simply got screwed by their battery supplier.
> 
> So, if they pull off this recall-and-replace thing, I hope they follow up by expanding their product line, just so I can have more opportunities to do business with them in the future.


+1 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


----------



## savagemann (Jan 14, 2008)

NWS said:


> I gotta say, if Geoman sends me a new battery pack, I'm going to be doing business with them for a *long *time. They're in a position where the easy (and maybe even _sensible_) thing to do would be to dissolve the company and/or go into bankruptcy. And I wouldn't fault them one bit for taking that exit - they simply got screwed by their battery supplier.
> 
> So, if they pull off this recall-and-replace thing, I hope they follow up by expanding their product line, just so I can have more opportunities to do business with them in the future.


+1,000,000


----------



## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Just to give a bit of props to GeoMan, I had a light fail AND the very same night I learned about the 'battery issue' so I was kinda worried - couldn't find my Multi-meter to diagnose if it was a battery or not...

Long story-short; found the MM, determined it wasn't the Batt., e-mailed GM, next day receive e-mail saying new head-unit shipped immediately - received Head-Unit today - 3 days after e-mail...(mind you, I had not even sent the old one back yet)
Nice work GeoMan :thumbsup:


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Gotta stick with Geoman myself .


----------



## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

It happens in the US as well all the time. In the composite world, it's very easy to take a fiberglass or carbon fiber part that someone else took the time to develop and build, splash a mold of it and start pumping out the same part yourself without the development time/cost. People do it all the time unfortunately.



NWS said:


> There's also common practice when dealing with factories in all parts of the world where a manufacturer works with a designer to develop a product to the designer's specifications... Typically this is done with a promise from the manufacturer to produce the new design _exclusively for that designer_. Designing products takes time and money, and that exclusivity gives the designer a reason to believe that if they do a good job, they can charge a premium for the product, in order to recover that initial investment.
> 
> In certain parts of the world (you can guess) it's fairly common for the manufacturer to violate that exclusivity agreement. So now the designer who made that investment now finds himself competing with random third-party resellers who have no up-front investment to recover. Since the development costs were paid by someone else, these new resellers can make a reasonable profit with very little markup. The actual designer then has to lower his prices in order to sell the product that he designed, leaving him with little or no hope of ever recovering that initial investment.
> 
> ...


----------



## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

SuperJETT said:


> It happens in the US as well all the time. In the composite world, it's very easy to take a fiberglass or carbon fiber part that someone else took the time to develop and build, splash a mold of it and start pumping out the same part yourself without the development time/cost. People do it all the time unfortunately.


Yeah, and Chinese manufacturers have even cloned entire automobiles that way! But when your overseas manufacturing "partner" does the same thing, they don't even have to build new tooling to rip you off. And the fact that they agreed to exclusivity in the beginning just adds to the chagrin.

Some designers/developers will contract with different manufacturers for different parts, and then do final assembly in the US. That way, none of the individual manufacturers has anything that can be re-sold on its own. It's extra hassle though, and it's still not a guarantee.

I get the impression that the Chinese courts don't really care if local manufacturers rip off foreign product developers. Seems like a scary place to do business.


----------



## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

highdelll said:


> Just to give a bit of props to GeoMan, I had a light fail AND the very same night I learned about the 'battery issue' so I was kinda worried - couldn't find my Multi-meter to diagnose if it was a battery or not...
> 
> Long story-short; found the MM, determined it wasn't the Batt., e-mailed GM, next day receive e-mail saying new head-unit shipped immediately - received Head-Unit today - 3 days after e-mail...(mind you, I had not even sent the old one back yet)
> Nice work GeoMan :thumbsup:


Geoman is actively encouraging/facilitating customers to keep using their MS lights even after reports of fires? :eekster:


----------



## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

znomit said:


> Geoman is actively encouraging/facilitating customers to keep using their MS lights even after reports of fires? :eekster:


Who said I couldn't use the head-unit with another battery?
They replaced the head and those don't catch on fire :skep:


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

znomit said:


> Geoman is actively encouraging/facilitating customers to keep using their MS lights even after reports of fires? :eekster:


The source of the fires is in the battery packs .


----------



## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

So gr8 CS makes up for a sketchy product?


----------



## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

snowdrifter said:


> So gr8 CS makes up for a sketchy product?


Show me a better and brighter light for $90 bucks, throw in killer customer service from GEOMAN and you get pretty good bang for the buck. so there has been a few bad batteries that kind of stuff happens when you try to lower the price point, I didn't expect Lupine quality for $90 bucks and you should not either, come on these are the cheapest mid lumen lights out . I'm buying a few more light heads from Geo soon and having batteries built . I rode last night using my MS light heads but with these batteries http://www.all-battery.com/li-ion1865074v4400mahrechargeablebatterypcbmodulewith20awgbareleads.aspx


----------



## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

snowdrifter said:


> So gr8 CS makes up for a sketchy product?


A problem with batteries does not make for a "sketchy" product IMHO . CS after the sale along with a product that has a lot of bang for the buck seals the deal .


----------



## Sebastian78 (Aug 25, 2010)

It's expensive to manufacture in Germany or the US. That's why things get's "Designed in" Germany and in the US. Then manufacturers go to China to get their products produced. They hand over drawings, get a test run, then go full production of a set number of the product. Say 10.000 light heads. Most probably the manufacturer will do a 15.000 run, selling the rest on the side. They will also have the production drawings and the machinery, so it's easy to either a) redesign original item or b) just produce an identical item under different brand name.

This is the "punishment" for doing the production in China and SHOULD be expected by the designer. Nobody should be shocked.......or angry. This is just the way it is.

Heck, Louis Vuitton shops around for cheapest factory to produce their bags. When they find a cheaper, the old factory still has the manufacturing tools, the drawings and the skill to produce "pirate" bags. They can even get hold of "original" leather from factory's suffering under the same conditions. They just produce more then they tell the original designer. So most "pirate" bags aren't really "fake".....


----------



## vchip (Nov 25, 2010)

If i missed it I apologize, anyone found a safe battery/charger replacement for the magic shine mess? since the light head seems to be okay, or is the whole garbage? Should have listened to the bike shop!


----------



## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

vchip said:


> If i missed it I apologize, anyone found a safe battery/charger replacement for the magic shine mess? since the light head seems to be okay, or is the whole garbage? Should have listened to the bike shop!


just buy one of these 
http://www.all-battery.com/li-ion1865074v4400mahrechargeablebatterypcbmodulewith20awgbareleads.aspx
http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_41&products_id=15
they charge just fine with the magicshine charger and then you will have a backup battery when geoman gets you your replacement
Now go out and ride


----------



## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

floydlippencott said:


> A problem with batteries does not make for a "sketchy" product IMHO . CS after the sale along with a product that has a lot of bang for the buck seals the deal .


Well I have a Magicshine, which I'm not suppose to use, and it's night riding season. So the product is shitty IMO.


----------



## bvader (Sep 13, 2009)

Rakuman said:


> just buy one of these
> http://www.all-battery.com/li-ion1865074v4400mahrechargeablebatterypcbmodulewith20awgbareleads.aspx
> http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_41&products_id=15
> they charge just fine with the magicshine charger and then you will have a backup battery when geoman gets you your replacement
> Now go out and ride


You may have posted elsewhere but that is the bare lead version, can you point us to the connector and/or process you used to "Ride Ready" the battery


----------



## off road rider (Mar 29, 2008)

Well, after a few tall boys and a weekend to settle down, and get some riding in. I have come to the conclusion that most of you are correct. Perhaps I should not have flamed Gemini. .
Our race winning history and commitment to high standards of customer service would have taken care of that.
And if we needed to.. we could easily win a price war.
What bothers me in this entire thing is that retailers like Gemini, geoman and hordes of others on Ebay etc.. (And now us) are cutting out the dealers, (we will still have dealers, just lower margins) This affects us as a nation. I dont like it and have been fighting buying parts /components and entire systems from overseas.
I would like you all to think about that.. You want a light that sells for $80 but works like a $500 light. What will happen to the industry that you work in, when China takes over the states?? will you be in the same position that I am in now? 
All our other Higher output lights are made in America. this includes bulbs and ballast.
About the only parts we use that are not made in the USA are the battery cells.
(Other than this LED light and another LED product)
And Yes high powered HIDs still kicks butt on any LED.. Just not what most MTBRs want.
After watching the magic shine sales for the past few years,we decided that if we cant beat them, we will join them,(Not Magic shine) but still wanted to support the dealers etc..
.We do not manufacture this light.. We did speck out some key differences..like the p7 D bin and a few other small things.
These lights are manufactured by Bigger Technology.
We do seal the batteries and know of no safety issues like what the magic shine lights have experienced. We have done extensive testing.These are higher quality lights all the way around.
Anyways, Thanks for your comments good and bad I appreciate them all.
I dont wish to continue beating this to death. I should have called the Gemini folks prior to my post. We will do what we need to and will overcome the issues of distributorship Drama..


----------



## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

bvader said:


> You may have posted elsewhere but that is the bare lead version, can you point us to the connector and/or process you used to "Ride Ready" the battery


Im sorry the geoman link did not work 
here is another source for the connectors 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Y-Splitter-Cabl...334?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336277dbde
just cut and splice one of these connectors and you are good to go:thumbsup:


----------



## Sebastian78 (Aug 25, 2010)

off road rider said:


> And if we needed to.. we could easily win a price war.


This perhaps suggest you make too much money on your lights?



off road rider said:


> What bothers me in this entire thing is that retailers like Gemini, geoman and hordes of others on Ebay etc.. (And now us) are cutting out the dealers, (we will still have dealers, just lower margins) This affects us as a nation. I dont like it and have been fighting buying parts /components and entire systems from overseas.


I have worked for a LBS and the main problem with my LBS at least is that they increase the price of products too much. You make more money off each light sold, but you sell less light overall.



off road rider said:


> I would like you all to think about that.. You want a light that sells for $80 but works like a $500 light. What will happen to the industry that you work in, when China takes over the states?? will you be in the same position that I am in now?


Here you are spot on, but yet again, both manufactures and retailers have increased the price to much for to long. Decrease the price by enough that purchasing online isn't so damn less expensive. But I still believe it's you the manufacturers wanting even more revenue from their products. "Hey, we can make this CHEAPER in China AND make more money"....

Sure, something is wrong, put it's hard to put the yolk back in the egg.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

off road rider said:


> Well, after a few tall boys and a weekend to settle down, and get some riding in. I have come to the conclusion that most of you are correct. Perhaps I should not have flamed Gemini. .
> Our race winning history and commitment to high standards of customer service would have taken care of that.
> And if we needed to.. we could easily win a price war.
> *What bothers me in this entire thing is that retailers like Gemini, geoman and hordes of others on Ebay etc.. (And now us) are cutting out the dealers, (we will still have dealers, just lower margins) This affects us as a nation. I dont like it and have been fighting buying parts /components and entire systems from overseas.
> ...


Gee, this is sad. A dealer who wants to Boo-Hoo to us folks about building and selling foreign made lights. Have you never read, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"? Did you not know how many cheap P-7 lights are actually out there floating around in internet land before you decided to sell one of your own? If not, is that our fault ( or your competitors )?

I don't have a problem with someone who wants to hawk their product on forum. However to start crying, "FOUL" when no foul has been been proven to be committed, THAT my friend is a FOUL in and of itself in my opinion. This makes you a "finger pointer" as you try to blame others ( including the competition ) for your woes. This truely is not in the spirit of free enterprise that this forum represents ( IMO ).

As to the lines you wrote that I underlined: As I gather from what you wrote, you are now chastising us for buying Chinese and foreign goods. In the same breath you are trying to win us over to buy from you even though you too are selling a foreign made product. :skep: The hypocrisy of your post rubs the wrong way with me. This "Pot calling the kettle black", approach simply isn't going to fly in my book. It might work in politics but very rarely in the business world.

I wish you the best of luck with your product. Because you take the attitude that you do I don't think I would buy from you. Sorry, but that's the way I feel. I don't like it when someone tries to throw a guilt trip on me for buying the stuff that I do. I don't think you "toned down" as much as you should have. Good luck with your approach to sales. Cat.


----------



## off road rider (Mar 29, 2008)

Cat-man-do said:


> Gee, this is sad. A dealer who wants to Boo-Hoo to us folks about building and selling foreign made lights. Have you never read, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"? Did you not know how many cheap P-7 lights are actually out there floating around in internet land before you decided to sell one of your own? If not, is that our fault ( or your competitors )?
> 
> I don't have a problem with someone who wants to hawk their product on forum. However to start crying, "FOUL" when no foul has been been proven to be committed, THAT my friend is a FOUL in and of itself in my opinion. This makes you a "finger pointer" as you try to blame others ( including the competition ) for your woes. This truely is not in the spirit of free enterprise that this forum represents ( IMO ).
> 
> ...


 Brother.. Ive been in the fire for a long time..I think you took me a little wrong, Probably my fault. but 
If reading this gets others to think about what they buy and if that sale supports people in thier neighborhoods, city's,and country .. Ill take that credit..Proudly..
On that note.. Dont buy my light.. Im good with that. .I would recomend a Baja Designs Striker to you..Or how about a BikerayUSA.com product..


----------



## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

off road rider said:


> Well, after a few tall boys and a weekend to settle down, and get some riding in. I have come to the conclusion that most of you are correct. Perhaps I should not have flamed Gemini. .
> Our race winning history and commitment to high standards of customer service would have taken care of that.
> And if we needed to.. we could easily win a price war.
> What bothers me in this entire thing is that retailers like Gemini, geoman and hordes of others on Ebay etc.. (And now us) are cutting out the dealers, (we will still have dealers, just lower margins) This affects us as a nation. I dont like it and have been fighting buying parts /components and entire systems from overseas.
> ...


FAIL.

I would never patronize a dealer that makes a statement like this. And that you keep defending your position, literally acting like the customer is an idiot, just adds to it.

Perhaps you should not have flamed Gemini,..Correct... but you instead flamed the mtbr customer base.

Nice work.


----------



## off road rider (Mar 29, 2008)

lidarman said:


> FAIL.
> 
> I would never patronize a dealer that makes a statement like this. And that you keep defending your position, literally acting like the customer is an idiot, just adds to it.
> 
> ...


 Hows that?? Please explain how I have made you feel like an idiot??
And how I Flamed you or The MTBR members?


----------



## Gemini Lights (Sep 20, 2010)

Dear MTBR users,

We would like to make some things clear in light of recent issues regarding BiggerTech and Gemini Industries.

The Gemini Titan was designed and developed by Gemini Industries who contracted BiggerTech to CNC our aluminum light head and assemble our product. BiggerTech has dishonorably used our investment to make their own gains. We do have evidence that BiggerTech has used our designs without consent to produce a copy of our Titan product (a written contract and design interations up to final product). 

As we all know, copy products will almost always pop up inevitably. For this reason, we will not be disheartened and look towards the long-run to continue on improving and building our products to suit your needs. Be ensured that your feedback as consumers will be implemented. We are confident as manufacturers of the Gemini Titan that this ability sets us apart from others.

At the same time, we are open for dialogue and possible support to investors who may have purchased one of the copies of Gemini. We understand the difficult position they may face as investments have already been made.
Thank you for your support so far.

On behalf of the Gemini Team,
Vaggelis Monogyios


----------



## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

Lupine is looking better and better with all this BS flyin around....


----------



## off road rider (Mar 29, 2008)

Gemini Rides said:


> Dear MTBR users,
> 
> We would like to make some things clear in light of recent issues regarding BiggerTech and Gemini Industries.
> 
> ...


 Thats interesting Vag..There is quite a different story coming from the other side. that produces several different lights.Hense the entire reason for my posting.. I have learned a very important lesson on both dealing with overseas partners and Online forums..I do wish you the best.


----------



## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

RipRoar said:


> Lupine is looking better and better with all this BS flyin around....


Lupine is flying WAY above this... this knock offs are just that and they will last a couple of seasons. After a while there will be no magicshine or X brand to get you your warranty because your crappy product just exploded on your camelback and Lupine will keep giving a top notch service to their users....
Magicshines exist because people don't respect that a good company dropped tons of money doing research; they just care about themselves... someday Taiwan or whatever will take over the USA and I would like to see people whinning about it...
You want to contribute? you don't need to spend big bucks but don't buy from the ones that steal....buy DIY, Trailed, Scar or whatever but all the guys buying cheap taiwanese crap help the cycle and create this mess.


----------



## Hill-Pumper (Apr 30, 2010)

BBW said:


> Lupine is flying WAY above this... this knock offs are just that and they will last a couple of seasons. After a while there will be no magicshine or X brand to get you your warranty because your crappy product just exploded on your camelback and Lupine will keep giving a top notch service to their users....
> Magicshines exist because people don't respect that a good company dropped tons of money doing research; they just care about themselves... someday Taiwan or whatever will take over the USA and I would like to see people whinning about it...
> You want to contribute? you don't need to spend big bucks but don't buy from the ones that steal....buy DIY, Trailed, Scar or whatever but all the guys buying cheap taiwanese crap help the cycle and create this mess.


Don't forget about Jetlites too.  their A-51 is proof that a quality light can be built and sold for a reasonable price.


----------



## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

fcuk, I ran out of popcorn...


----------



## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

highdelll said:


> fcuk, I ran out of popcorn...


+1:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


----------



## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

highdelll said:


> fcuk, I ran out of popcorn...


I switched to beer a few posts back. I figure after a six pack these guys might start to make some sense. Maybe.

PS, The only confirmed thing here is the factory is a bit dodgy. I guess theres a good chance they'll be using cheap mismatched cells in the batteries too.


----------



## betweenrides (Oct 19, 2010)

BBW said:


> Lupine is flying WAY above this... this knock offs are just that and they will last a couple of seasons. After a while there will be no magicshine or X brand to get you your warranty because your crappy product just exploded on your camelback and Lupine will keep giving a top notch service to their users....
> Magicshines exist because people don't respect that a good company dropped tons of money doing research; they just care about themselves... someday Taiwan or whatever will take over the USA and I would like to see people whinning about it...
> You want to contribute? you don't need to spend big bucks but don't buy from the ones that steal....buy DIY, Trailed, Scar or whatever but all the guys buying cheap taiwanese crap help the cycle and create this mess.


+1

When I was looking at lights, I researched it for quite a long time. Subsisted on an old one and a good flashlight for a season. Magicshine and now this BS has no interest for me for all the problems that have come to light recently. I worked for a company that switched production overseas and saw all the issues surface with inconsistent quality, intellectual property theft and poor warranty service. There are too many good choices out there to save a few bucks on something that is not going to last. I'm not saying all is crap out there, but generally if the price is too good to be true........


----------



## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

highdelll said:


> fcuk, I ran out of popcorn...


Me too, I made a bunch back on page 1 but it went fast.

I'm really glad now I ordered 3 flashlights from DX and will just ride with them.


----------



## Sebastian78 (Aug 25, 2010)

BBW said:


> Lupine is flying WAY above this... this knock offs are just that and they will last a couple of seasons. After a while there will be no magicshine or X brand to get you your warranty because your crappy product just exploded on your camelback and Lupine will keep giving a top notch service to their users....
> Magicshines exist because people don't respect that a good company dropped tons of money doing research; they just care about themselves... someday Taiwan or whatever will take over the USA and I would like to see people whinning about it...
> You want to contribute? you don't need to spend big bucks but don't buy from the ones that steal....buy DIY, Trailed, Scar or whatever but all the guys buying cheap taiwanese crap help the cycle and create this mess.


Well, some of us really can't afford a Lupine battery and Magicshine is the only possible solution for night riding. In the end, it's better WITH knock-off because more people get to ride and the more serious manufacturers get solid competition to improve their products.


----------



## vchip (Nov 25, 2010)

Thanks i will check them out.


----------



## off road rider (Mar 29, 2008)

The phrase you get what you pay for is certainly true in most any aspect of life.
To say all these lights are junk just is not reality.They in fact are very good for the price.or even when compared to much more expensive systems.
To compare them to the magic shine issues is natural, but unfounded. The facts are that guys will continue to purchase low priced systems, whether its a light, helmet cam or whatever else.
Thanks to the riders who have called in and ordered.:thumbsup: 
. I appreciate the hard knocks I have received here. Some are fair, others are not. Either way I learned something. and will be a better person for it.
Hopefully you guys have had your fill, I know I have and will not be doing deals like this in the future.. So continue on or let it die.. its your choice . I'll take the orders any day.
See ya at a 24hr soon.
Thanks


----------



## KingOfTheHill (Sep 19, 2007)




----------



## [email protected] (Mar 28, 2007)

There is a third way, something less expensive than high end lights and better quality than Chinese knockoffs. Go check the classifieds and look at some of the lights the DIY crowd are selling (full disclosure, I have an ad there). We even have our own forum on mtbr.com: http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=124. Most don't have the bling of the higher end lights, some don't even look as nice as the MS from the outside (I'd say mine fall into that category). But these are lights built by folks who ride with them. They put a lot of time and effort into designing a safe, efficient light.

Flashlights are OK to introduce yourself to riding at night, but lack any of the safety features a real bike light has (thermal protection, low battery warning, etc.). Plus the driver electronics are designed to fit in a very small space. They often run way too hot for the components in them to last more than a few hundred hours of heavy use. Don't get me wrong, I always pack a couple of flashlights when I go out at night as backups or to loan to somebody who had light troubles.

If the DIY lights are too expensive for folks, then I guess you need to ride with some cheap import that might fail on you at any moment (it's not just the batteries that suck in the MS, the headlight electronics are way under-designed), be sure to carry a backup, at least a flashlight.

So if you got burned in the MS fiasco, and want to buy another light, don't feel like your only choices are to buy another Chinese made light (granted one that may be of better quality) or take out a second mortgage to buy some German uber bike light  .

Mark


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Sebastian78 said:


> Well, some of us really can't afford a Lupine battery and Magicshine is the only possible solution for night riding. In the end, it's better WITH knock-off because more people get to ride and the more serious manufacturers get solid competition to improve their products.


+1....well said.

Heck knows how Lupine even got mentioned in a thread like this in the first place.  It's almost like mentioning a five star Restaurant in a discussion about MacDonalds and their competitors. :lol:

Personally, I like the Clone Wars. Good entertainment as long as things ( meaning all the BS ) doesn't get too out of hand. More cheap lights mean more options for everyone. If I didn't already own a slew of lights I might even buy one myself. If I did, I would expect to only get a couple seasons out of the set-up but that's just my take on it. Anyway, for the price you can upgrade every other year or so when the new emitters come out anyway. In keeping with that, expect to see an XM-L version of the MS ( and it's Clones ) real soon.


----------



## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

Gemini Rides said:


> . We do have evidence that BiggerTech has used our designs without consent to produce a copy of our Titan product (a written contract and design interations up to final product).
> 
> As we all know, copy products will almost always pop up inevitably.


LMFAO! Your product is a copy of Magicshine, which is a copy of Lupine. What a bunch of dribble.


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

BBW said:


> Lupine is flying WAY above this... this knock offs are just that and they will last a couple of seasons. After a while there will be no magicshine or X brand to get you your warranty because your crappy product just exploded on your camelback and Lupine will keep giving a top notch service to their users....
> Magicshines exist because people don't respect that a good company dropped tons of money doing research; they just care about themselves... someday Taiwan or whatever will take over the USA and I would like to see people whinning about it...
> You want to contribute? you don't need to spend big bucks but don't buy from the ones that steal....buy DIY, Trailed, Scar or whatever but all the guys buying cheap taiwanese crap help the cycle and create this mess.


What research? Lupine still uses Korean (or similar) LED's and other semiconductors right?

With regard to the bicycle, Taiwan has already taken over the USA and everywhere else. The Taiwanese own bicycling. Giant, Merida, etc are the largest bicycle manufacturers in the world, and they make bicycles for a whole host of American and European 'manufacturers', or should I say brands. Taiwan has been world class since the early 90's. It's a pity we (the US and Europe) are not world-class any longer; we just don't have much left. The issue here is with China, not Taiwan. Even Taiwan is threatened by China, and they will lose more of their manufacturing to China, just like we did. The magicshine would have been a better product from the get go if it had been Taiwanese. The Chinese cannot resist cutting corners......


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 28, 2007)

> What research? Lupine still uses Korean (or similar) LED's and other semiconductors right?


A lot of "American" semiconductors are made in China, Korea, etc. The Seoul Semiconductor P7 (SSC P7) used by Lupine is based on an LED die that they (SSC) buy from CREE, an American company (who might make the dies in Thailand for all I know). Where a component is made has less to do with how "good" it is than the process that was used to design and produce it, and how tightly controlled that process is.

Having designed and built my own bike lights and driver electronics, I can tell you there is a lot of research that goes into creating a light. It is expensive to design your own electronics and produce something that is reliable and efficient. It is very time consuming to write your own firmware, even for something as simple as a bike light, if you are worried about writing code that is safe, well designed, and thoroughly debugged.

All of the inexpensive bike lights I've taken apart (or helped people reverse engineer) use drivers that were designed to be used in flashlights or are based on such designs. They typically use the cheapest parts they can find. Their firmware is pretty primitive, and has until recently been pretty poorly designed for bike riding, they probably just re-used flashlight code. Even the recent improvements we have seen in the inexpensive lights don't seem that well thought out from a rider's point of view. An example would be the MagicShine now switches to low mode when it gets too hot. Not too handy if your light has overheated on a long climb, and you are suddenly at the top of a steep gnarly downhill section.

I'm probably wasting my time trying to convince MagicShine users "who drank the koolaid" that big light companies (and my little company) are not ripping you off by charging what they do. They do spend money thinking about user safety, building a light that will last more than a couple of seasons, offering customer service, etc.

If they are selling thru a distributor/bike shop network, then everybody along the way needs to get a cut as well. That boosts the price you see by quite a bit, anywhere from 25% to 50% of the final price. You get lower prices from places like Deal Extreme and Geoman because they don't have a distributor network they need to keep happy.

Don't expect Lupine and the other light companies to drop their distributors in order to sell lower priced lights. They need bike shops, distributors, advertising, etc. to keep their sales volume high enuff that they can benefit from economies of scale. If you want to rant about how expensive their lights are, you might as well rant against the way stuff is sold in the brick and mortar world. That's where a lot of the "cost" of the light comes from.

I've tried to avoid that by selling directly online, in places like the mtbr forums, and by word of mouth. That lets me offer more light than some of the big companies do for a lower price. My sales volume will be lower, and I guarantee I won't make enuff to be retiring anytime soon . But it's a fun hobby and gets me out riding after dark.

Mark


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> A lot of "American" semiconductors are made in China, Korea, etc. The Seoul Semiconductor P7 (SSC P7) used by Lupine is based on an LED die that they (SSC) buy from CREE, an American company (who might make the dies in Thailand for all I know). Where a component is made has less to do with how "good" it is than the process that was used to design and produce it, and how tightly controlled that process is.
> 
> Having designed and built my own bike lights and driver electronics, I can tell you there is a lot of research that goes into creating a light. It is expensive to design your own electronics and produce something that is reliable and efficient. It is very time consuming to write your own firmware, even for something as simple as a bike light, if you are worried about writing code that is safe, well designed, and thoroughly debugged.
> 
> ...


I shall digest all you have written, but put it this way.. we pay FAR more for goods in the UK than you do in the states. Americans piss and moan about the cost of housing, petrol (gas) and bike lights, but the reality is that we pay anything from 30% to 200% more than you do on these things.

American options are out when you factor in shipping. And the ONLY British option (Hope) that puts out 900 lumens is £360 or about $540. I bet you don't pay that much. It's too much for me, for a light, I don't use much. I go with the Chinese option on lights.

Edited to add: I don't see how you can claim a distributor is needed for economies of scale. Magicshine are surely selling more units than Lupine I would imagine. So where is the economy of scale?


----------



## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

9speed said:


> I shall digest all you have written, but put it this way.. we pay FAR more for goods in the UK than you do in the states. Americans piss and moan about the cost of housing, petrol (gas) and bike lights, but the reality is that we pay anything from 30% to 200% more than you do on these things.
> 
> American options are out when you factor in shipping. And the ONLY British option (Hope) that puts out 900 lumens is £360 or about $540. I bet you don't pay that much. It's too much for me, for a light, I don't use much. I go with the Chinese option on lights.
> 
> Edited to add: I don't see how you can claim a distributor is needed for economies of scale. Magicshine are surely selling more units than Lupine I would imagine. So where is the economy of scale?


to add to mhahn's post - R&D takes ALOT of time and money on getting every facet of the light right from reflector (how many people have complained about the MS's beam pattern?), to the driver (ditto), to the battery (ditto) to the charger (won't even go there), which, in turn, feeds into the warranty they offer. I don't remember any of the major light manus (except NR) who've had to recall an entire batch of lights. I also know that, for most of these lights, the warranty is extremely limited. That's what you pay for. The components cost peanuts (reliable Li-ion cells excepted), it's the design and care and expertise you're paying for.

as for the whole US vs. UK thing, it's been done to death, but in approximate order: taxes (20% VAT vs. what, 6-8%? ~25% federal + state income tax vs. 40%+ income tax + NI contributions = higher overhead for importer), 1/5 of the market size by population, C&E duties, strong pound vs. weak dollar due to the US's huge current account deficit and quantitative easing, fewer choices leading to less competition (due to smaller market size). It's just the way it is, but if it's any consolation, no one goes bankrupt from medical fees in the UK. That said, the constant tax drain and constant whinging is why I left the UK and have no desire to return, for all it's faults I far prefer the US.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 28, 2007)

> I don't see how you can claim a distributor is needed for economies of scale. Magicshine are surely selling more units than Lupine I would imagine. So where is the economy of scale?


As I understand it, the brick and mortar way of selling stuff for the last hundred years or so is something like:

Company A designs and builds a widget, and maybe spends some money advertising it. They spend X dollars to produce and advertise the widget.

Company B, a distributor, agrees to buy a large fixed amount of the widgets for X + 25%. This lets company A figure out the best way to finance building the widgets. And let's them get a good price for the parts they need to build the widget by agreeing to buy a large amount of parts.

Companies C thru Z sell the lights to consumers. They may provide some advertising. They provide some shelf space and display the widgets. They buy lights from B at X + 50%, and turn around and sell them to consumers at X + 75%

The percentage markups above vary depending on market size. For items you sell a lot of, the markups are low. For more expensive widgets, that sell in low volumes, the markups may be higher than the example I gave.

Without distributors like company B, it's very hard (expensive) for small companies like A to deal with companies C thru Z. And until the internet came along company A wouldn't dream of trying to sell directly to consumers.

Now with the internet, why don't they sell directly to consumers at X + %50? Because they still need the guaranteed purchase from B, and the advertising, shelf space, customer service handling that they get thru the whole retail supply chain, and would piss all those folks off if they sold it to you for less than your local bike shop sold it for.

I think MagicShine hit a perfect price point for folks who didn't want to pay for the distributor/bikes shop/ retail supply chain model. The price was low enuff folks were willing to risk $85 to see if the lights were crap or not. They sold as many as they did by basically going viral. Most of the initial lights sold worked and were pretty bright. They sold thru a few distributors (Deal Extreme, Geoman, etc.) and didn't offer much of a warranty. They spent nothing for advertising. GeoMan (the largest US distributor) took out a few ads on the mtbr forums, and promoted the lights in the forums. That was the extent of advertising I was aware of.

From what I've seen of pricing documentation for the MagicShine, GeoMan was(is?) probably buying lights for $50 per thousand and reselling them for $85. Which would have been a decent profit if the returns were low. That probably didn't work out too well given the recall he is trying to survive.

What I really can't figure out is how the MagicShine manufacturer (Shenzhen Minjun Electronic Co. I think) makes any money selling the lights for $50 (I'm assuming they sell it to Deal Extreme for around the same price GeoMan was getting). I kind of wonder at the quality of parts they must be using if they are able to make a profit at that price.

I had sort of hoped to go viral, small time, with my first light design, a SSC P7 using the same reflector Lupine does, and sell it online for around $150. But when the MagicShine came out, a product that sold for less than I could buy the parts for my lights (I'm talking about 100s quantity from US distributors), I decided to go a bit more high end and sell lights in the 1300+ lumen range. So far I've sold enuff to keep me interested in pursuing the middle ground market: designed and built in the US, brighter than the MS at a lower weight, not as cheap as the MS, better quality than the MS, less expensive in terms of lumens per $ than the larger companies. But I'm not trying to make a living off it, it's a hobby for me. And who knows, maybe after the battery recall fiasco people will be willing to spend a bit more for a decent light.

Mark

PS


> Americans piss and moan about the cost of housing, petrol (gas) and bike lights, but the reality is that we pay anything from 30% to 200% more than you do on these things.


Hey, I think gas is too cheap in the US. If we paid more for it more people might ride bicycles and I'd have more customers


----------



## CdaleTony (Jun 21, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> A lot of "American" semiconductors are made in China, Korea, etc. The Seoul Semiconductor P7 (SSC P7) used by Lupine is based on an LED die that they (SSC) buy from CREE, an American company (who might make the dies in Thailand for all I know). Where a component is made has less to do with how "good" it is than the process that was used to design and produce it, and how tightly controlled that process is.
> 
> Having designed and built my own bike lights and driver electronics, I can tell you there is a lot of research that goes into creating a light. It is expensive to design your own electronics and produce something that is reliable and efficient. It is very time consuming to write your own firmware, even for something as simple as a bike light, if you are worried about writing code that is safe, well designed, and thoroughly debugged.
> 
> ...


yea you probably are...I find your posts long winded, a bit pompous and you toss in a little derisiveness towards your potential customers. None of which does much for me.
My $90 MS has done Exactly what I needed it to do, with no problemos. IF I have an issue with the battery I now know enough to source a high quality 18650 pack for very little money. A pack whose 'high end chinese' cells are likely the same ones from the Big light (and yours) companies...

The biggest thing a company can do is recognize and adapt to change. paradigm shift and all. 
Perhaps in the near future big mfr's will be forced to reduce the amount of touches a product makes en route to the consumer, thereby reducing the cost.....

No matter what happens with Geoman and the recall, I am happy enough with my purchase, and so far it has been a real value, despite the bump in the road that is the battery recall.

CDT


----------



## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

CdaleTony said:


> yea you probably are...I find your posts long winded, a bit pompous and you toss in a little derisiveness towards your potential customers. None of which does much for me.


nice. I like the attitude :nono: Perhaps if the seasoned light builders were terse and uncommunicative, you'd have an even better idea of how to build that super cheap replacement battery you're boasting about?:madmax:


----------



## CdaleTony (Jun 21, 2005)

mattthemuppet said:


> nice. I like the attitude :nono: Perhaps if the seasoned light builders were terse and uncommunicative, you'd have an even better idea of how to build that super cheap replacement battery you're boasting about?:madmax:


Cry me a river., from the get go there were two camps. People who bought MS and those who waited to gleefully thrust a dagger into the makers or purchasers.
I myself bought one and have had zero problems. None of my LiPo or Li-ion batteries I have, have blown up nor dwindled down to 5% of capacity yet.

And to tell you the truth, looking up 18650 and doing a modicum of reading aint that hard...

Perhaps if google was a bit more 'terse and uncommunicative' no one would know anything.. :nono: :skep: 

Really how many MS packs have exploded?


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

If any had exploded we would have seen a recall in the UK. We aint no backwater 3rd world country (yet). Dodgy items don't sell for long in blighty. Hundreds perhaps thousands of these lights have been sold in the UK, but where are the hoardes of complaints? 

It's a recall that isn't a recall. And it was voluntary!

Smells like fish.


----------



## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

CdaleTony said:


> ...
> 
> Really how many MS packs have exploded?


I think two so far (at least what's been shown) - I think some most are due to faulty cells...
I'm in the latter camp.

Thermal Runaway is no joke if you have ever witnessed it - I have (back in the Navy)

And, FWIW, I'm not against you Tony - just addin' my $.02


----------



## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

highdelll said:


> I think two so far (at least what's been shown) - I think some most are due to faulty cells...


Weren't those chargers?


----------



## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

znomit said:


> Weren't those chargers?


Umm, I tried to find the links (didn't look too hard), but I'm pretty sure they were battery TR...
They are here in the pages of MTBR or linked from here...

ALSO, I think I didn't separate "faulty cells" from my take on exploding batteries enough
you can certainly have a dead cell and not worry about it burning your house down.
**Don't try this at home without trained pornstars**


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

CdaleTony said:


> ...Really how many MS packs have exploded?


I'm not really sure that was the major issue although I do remember someone having a story about a closet fire or something like that. Not a big issue as I see it unless hundreds are flaming out ( and that ain't happening ). Li-ion cells contain built-in safety measures. Even so, theoretically if they fail and the cell goes into thermal runaway but such is a very rare thing. A couple years ago I had a battery go up while in my vehicle. My fault for leaving it in a vehicle that sat outside in the summer sun all day. All it did was short out and then the safety protection cut in and that was that. No fire only some burnt electronic smell. At the time I had no idea where the smell came from. Later on I found out the battery would no longer work, then I remembered the burnt smell in my car and deduced what had happened. Need I say, battery safety is not just a MS issue.

On the other hand the MS battery does have some quality issues that are being dealt with. Once again I think the issue was over-blown. The people who post up saying they won't buy a MS because they don't want the battery to blow up make me laugh. In comparison, how many people ride motorcycles? It could easily be argued that motorcycles ( or MTB's for that matter ) are two-wheeled body-crippling / death machines. Yet does this stop people from buying them or make the cycle companies recall their bikes because someone died on one? Of course not. I've got no reason to blame anyone for being safe as long as it doesn't venture into the realm of paranoid delusion. Be safe, enjoy your ride and enjoy your MS for as long as it last. If it stops working, buy another if that makes your day.


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

highdelll said:


> I think two so far (at least what's been shown) - I think some most are due to faulty cells...
> I'm in the latter camp.
> 
> Thermal Runaway is no joke if you have ever witnessed it - I have (back in the Navy)
> ...


Do the two that have apparently "exploded" include the one that was tossed from a train after catching fire (apparently soon after being dropped)?

I still smell fish.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 28, 2007)

CdaleTony said:


> yea you probably are...I find your posts long winded, a bit pompous and you toss in a little derisiveness towards your potential customers. None of which does much for me.


You are not a potential customer. I know I will never sell a single light to somebody who is convinced that the MagicShine is the perfect solution for them. If you find my postings derisive, my apologies. If they do nothing for you ... then don't read them.



CdaleTony said:


> My $90 MS has done Exactly what I needed it to do, with no problemos.


And I sincerely hope it stays that way.



CdaleTony said:


> IF I have an issue with the battery I now know enough to source a high quality 18650 pack for very little money. A pack whose 'high end chinese' cells are likely the same ones from the Big light (and yours) companies...


Actually I usually sell NiMh batteries with my lights. Safer for my customers and me. If properly cared for and recharged with a decent charger a NiMh battery will last years longer than a Li-Ion battery will, especially inexpensive Li-Ion batteries. I offer Li-Ion 18650 holders as an option for folks who can't live without them.



CdaleTony said:


> The biggest thing a company can do is recognize and adapt to change. paradigm shift and all.


If by paradigm shift you mean compete with companies who cheat (I consider putting bogus UL and CE markings on a product cheating), then all a company can do is cheat in return or try to educate potential customers about the cheating. Cheating customers does not seem like a good business model to me (but I may be naive  ).

I don't consider GeoMan to be responsible for what I'm calling cheating, I think GeoManGear is probably a victim in this whole mess.

Mark


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

What mess?

Is there even a mess? And who the feck is geoman anyway? 

I am all for buying home made products, but what happens 2 years down the line when you are stuck with a $£mega£$ light that has now been surpassed by something better and cheaper?


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 28, 2007)

mess = voluntary battery recall started by GeoManGear
geoman aka GeoManGear = US distributor of MagicShine lights

To the best of my knowledge, the CPSC (http://www.cpsc.gov/) has not actually issued a recall yet. Once they do, it is technically illegal for someone to continue to knowingly use a recalled product. This does not mean the Safety Police will confiscate your battery if they see you using it  . For all practical purposes it just means if your battery fails in a way that starts a fire or causes some other problem, you will most likely not be able to sue GeoManGear for damages.

Note: none of the above applies to anybody residing outside the US.

I am not a Li-Ion battery expert. I have used them in some projects I have done for my consulting clients (at the clients' request, I would have preferred not to use them). I have read enuff about them to decline to sell them with lighting systems I manufacture. Please consider the following observations as coming from someone who is knowledgeable but not someone you would hire to design a Li-Ion battery pack and charging system  .

I think the danger of a MagicShine battery exploding while riding or charging is very very low. I think there is more danger (probably not a lot, but some) of the batteries venting or catching fire. It is probably not good to breathe whatever gets vented by an overheated Li-Ion battery.

The batteries are more likely to have problems while charging. GeoManGear reports there have been three incidents of battery packs catching fire: http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=recall. GeomanGear does not explain the circumstances under which the fires happened. I would suspect these 3 incidents are only among the ligths GeoManGear sold. There may have been more fires among the lights sold by Deal Extreme and other distributors.

I would guess that fires are more likely to happen with unbalanced batteries (one or more cells don't hold as much of a charge as others). If your batteries still last almost as long as when you first bought the light, you might not experience any problems. If your batteries have a greatly diminished runtime, you probably shouldn't use them.

I bought a MagicShine from DX when they first came out. After making several modifications to improve the light head's reliability, input voltage range, and thermal performance, I sold the light to a friend who is only interested in using the light with NiMh batteries. If I still owned a MagicShine, would I use it with the original battery pack? No.

There are 7.2 volt NiMh battery packs you could use with the MagicShine if you can do a bit of soldering. You will need a NiMh charger. Do not use the MagicShine charger to charge a NiMh battery. If you clip the cable off the battery to use with a different battery, be sure to cut it one wire at a time, so you do not short the battery. I would advise against using anything with a higher output voltage as the driver inside the MagicShine uses several unmarked parts and it is impossible to determine what voltage they can handle without blowing up the driver.

Mark

To those who find my postings long-winded. My apologies. I am an engineer. We like to explain terms.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> The batteries are more likely to have problems while charging. *GeoManGear reports there have been three incidents of battery packs catching fire: http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=recall. GeomanGear does not explain the circumstances under which the fires happened. I would suspect these 3 incidents are only among the ligths GeoManGear sold. *There may have been more fires among the lights sold by Deal Extreme and other distributors.
> 
> I would guess that fires are more likely to happen with unbalanced batteries (one or more cells don't hold as much of a charge as others). If your batteries still last almost as long as when you first bought the light, you might not experience any problems. If your batteries have a greatly diminished runtime, you probably shouldn't use them.


The only problem here is that we don't know who these people are ( with the flaming batteries ), what precautions they took or how they handled or mishandled the batteries and if their claims are legit. Never underestimate the deceptiveness of people trying to bilk money from their insurance company ( or to sue innocent parties ). Geoman, being a small business operator has to protect their vested interest by playing it safe. Other than that I agree with the rest of what was quoted.

Mark I don't understand the bias you have toward Li-ion technology. A NiMh battery big enough to power a 13watt light WEIGHS A LOT. I still have the old NiMh battery I used with my old Jett halogen lamp. Everytime I put it in my hydration-pack it felt like a brick was in my pack. Not to mention almost every NiMh battery I ever owned bellied up after two years. Yes, they would have lasted longer with a good trickle ( smart ) charger but unfortunately *NONE of the bike lighting companies provided trickle chargers with their products.( *at least nobody that I was aware of ). They were happy to just sell you a new battery, more money in their pockets.

I should also add that the electronic industry as a whole disagrees with you as well. Cell phones, bike lights, Laptops...you name it, everyone knows Li-ion is where it is at. Not to mention car manufactures and other high-tech industries. Can they all be THAT WRONG?
Li-ion is the present and the future. The technology will continue to improve in the areas of capacity as well as safety. It shouldn't be too long before the true 4000mAh 18650 cell is released. If one in 10K fails, I think I can live with that. In the mean time I will continue to ride my Mt. bike ( the safest form of transportation known in this day... ) and try not to kill myself.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 28, 2007)

> Mark I don't understand the bias you have toward Li-ion technology.


Look at what GeoManGear is going thru right now. I know enuff about Li-Ion batteries to know I would not be sure I was selling safe batteries and chargers unless I was willing to pay almost as much for batteries and charger as the MagicShine costs. So for me Li-Ion was not an option. I'm happy to let people wire up whatever battery they want to my lights. I design my lights to run off a wide range of power sources. I don't want my customers to feel like I'm trying to gouge them when they need a new battery. I'm perfectly happy if they buy a battery from somebody else. I'd rather be in the business of selling lights.



> A NiMh battery big enough to power a 13 watt light WEIGHS A LOT.


It depends on how much run time you really need. 8 AA NiMH batteries don't weigh much more than a 4 cell 18650 battery. Yeah they only provide a bit more than 60% of the run time for the same weight, but it's really, really hard to make them burst into flames. The new Low Self Discharge NiMh batteries get around a lot of the problems earlier NiMh batteries had.



> Not to mention almost every NiMh battery I ever owned bellied up after two years.


Most manufacturers treated NiMh batteries when they first came out like NiCads and wound up overcharging them. This turned a lot of consumers off to NiMh batteries.

New smart chargers that shut off when they sense a drop in cell voltage (sometimes called delta V chargers) do not overcharge NiMh batteries. I have packs with 5 years of pretty steady use (and occasional abuse) on them that still run at over 90% of their initial capacity. You will not get that long term performance from Li-Ion packs, even if you baby them. I have seen claims that Li-Ion batteries loose 10% to 20% of their capacity per year regardless of if they are used or not. That jibes with my experience with them.

Trickle charging is a good way to recover NiMh packs that have been abused. You need to charge them at a rate below 1/20th of their capacity and stop charging once they reach a suitable voltage. Early NiMh trickle chargers were designed to recharge batteries in 8 hours, so if you had only used 1/2 the battery's charge you cooked them leaving them on the charger for 8 hours.



> I should also add that the electronic industry as a whole disagrees with you as well.


The companies selling Li-Ion powered devices are big companies that can bring pressure to bear on distributors who screw them. What can I as a very small manufacturer do if I get a load of bad Li-Ion batteries? And as I mentioned before, good batteries are not cheap.

I know everybody thinks they need Li-Ion batteries for bike lights, but for a lot of users a decent NiMh battery with a good charger will be more reliable, economical, and will last longer than a Li-Ion battery.

I'm happy to tell folks how to build their own Li-Ion packs for my lights or where to buy a finished pack. My latest ad ran out over the weekend, so I'll buy another before I post a link to my website's DIY battery pack page. I'd rather not have a garage stacked full with stuff that my local fire department won't be able to deal with  if something bad happens .

I do own electronic equipment that uses Li-Ion batteries. I'm not trying to scare people about having a cell phone that uses a Li-Ion battery. I think if you buy a Li-Ion powered device from a company that has taken the time to get UL or CE approval (and not cheated and just stamped the UL or CE logo on their product) there is very little chance of you having a problem.

I even own a few cheap Li-Ion batteries from DX, KD, etc. But I charge those on my driveway in a metal bucket, not next to anything I care about.

Mark


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> mess = voluntary battery recall started by GeoManGear
> geoman aka GeoManGear = US distributor of MagicShine lights
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, the CPSC (http://www.cpsc.gov/) has not actually issued a recall yet. Once they do, it is technically illegal for someone to continue to knowingly use a recalled product. This does not mean the Safety Police will confiscate your battery if they see you using it  . For all practical purposes it just means if your battery fails in a way that starts a fire or causes some other problem, you will most likely not be able to sue GeoManGear for damages.
> ...


I quite like the idea of running the pack from a 7.2v 'Tamiya' Nimh.. would be slightly undervolted I guess, but only slightly.. heavier though.. the 18650 punches above its weight! I would like to get 4 18650's and run them in a 2s2p battery pack and then change them individually... but the problem there is that there seems to be no battery holders for the 18650, other than a inline 4 jobby that can be sourced from the USSR...


----------



## ortelius (Dec 6, 2007)

9speed said:


> ... but the problem there is that there seems to be no battery holders for the 18650, other than a inline 4 jobby that can be sourced from the USSR...


You haven't searched hard enough. Try "sdnative" or "LuminousDIY" here in MTBR forums search utility.... And there are some others, too. Not to mention DIY approach.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

On the subject of NiMh batteries vs. Li-ion



[email protected] said:


> It depends on how much run time you really need. 8 AA NiMH batteries don't weigh much more than a 4 cell 18650 battery. Yeah they only provide a bit more than 60% of the run time for the same weight, but it's really, really hard to make them burst into flames. The new Low Self Discharge NiMh batteries get around a lot of the problems earlier NiMh batteries had.
> 
> Most manufacturers treated NiMh batteries when they first came out like NiCads and wound up overcharging them. This turned a lot of consumers off to NiMh batteries.
> 
> ...


Well at least I think I see where you're coming from and you do make some very good compelling arguments. However I do think you are over-simplifying what is needed to maintain NiMh batteries if you want to make them last. First off, they are good for about 300 deep discharge cycles before they begin to deteriorate vs. Li-ion that are usually listed for about 500 cycles ( for good quality cells ). Then again time is an issue as well. As you stated Li-ion can lose capacity up to 20% after three years but a lot of that depends on the user and how they store the batteries. It is not unusual for Li-ion cells to last 5 yrs or more.

NiMh batteries on the other hand should be stored at lower ambient temperatures as high temperatures make them deteriorate. This fact also factors in as far as charging goes as well. Some of the newer smart trickle chargers also incorporate a temperature sensor to make sure the battery does not over-heat. This is a good precaution because if for some reason the charger failed to turn off, the battery could EXPLODE. Of course, not likely to happen if you have one of those good chargers. Good thing too because with a standard NiMh battery ( because of the high self-discharge ) you will need to make sure that the battery does not go too far into discharge ( which would damage the battery ). That means keeping the battery in a cool room and on a smart charger at least once every other week or so if not is use. After that you have to do a deep discharge every three months ( when not in use ) to prevent crystalline structures from forming inside the cell. I suppose that's all fine and good if you like to baby sit batteries. Personally, I never was any good at it but back when I owned NiMh batteries I never knew any of this stuff. 

I do own some of the newer low self-discharge NiMh cells. They work very well however I don't see the battery companies making battery packs with these cells.  Anyway, back to standard NiMh...in some of the comparisons I've done, when comparing NiMh to Li-ion batteries ( like voltages and like capacity ) if the battery capacity is smaller there is not much difference in size as you stated. However when the capacity is increased, NiMh can weigh almost twice as much and can be considerably larger. Then again they are cheaper as you said. I can see a 12 AA cell NiMh battery working very well for a MS *as long as the battery can handle the 2.4A current needed for the MS to operate on high. I'm not really sure how well the smaller AA cells handle large currents. I do need to look more into that issue.

Anyway, for those who find this stuff interesting, some stuff copied from Battery University:



> Limitations of NiMh
> 
> * Limited service life - the performance starts to deteriorate after 200-300 cycles if repeatedly deeply cycled.
> * Relatively short storage of three years. Cool temperature and a partial charge slows aging.
> ...


----------



## off road rider (Mar 29, 2008)

Interesting thoughts on batteries..
I would like to thank all the riders and our Dealers that have both stuck with us and /or decided to give us a chance.. We have listed this product in the hot deals section and are well on our way to having our next Mountain Bike based light ready.


----------

