# Any short women with buyer's remorse for "wrong" wheelsize?



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

She's 5'2" and coming off an old 26er that is too short in reach. Not realistic to spend days demoing bikes on local trails due to winter weather here in northwest US.

We've been doing parking lot spins on 27.5 and 29er. 

The 27.5 Giant Anthem 2 and Tallboy 29er (neither Plus) are both short travel, climb well and feel much better in standover, reach, etc., but she's on the fence for her riding needs which are 95% smooth non-technical big elevation gain climbs and/or a good mix of short punchy switchbacks (again, mostly smooth). Think Boise, Bend, maybe some Tahoe, St. George. She's not an aggro descender if that matters.

She knows the pros and cons of each wheel size and didn't like hearing how 29er wheels require a different attack on slow switchbacks and need a few pedal strokes to get up to speed even with lighter trail tires or how 27.5 can get hung up easier on rocks and is slower, obviously, on the flats (she does 12 and 24 hour events from time to time), but I wanted to ask if any short riders have remorse with their wheelsize and if they ride in similar terrain.

Thanks in advance.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Nope. Not yet anyway. 

But I have some thoughts on the matter. Does she still want 26” wheels? There are some bike manufacturers who sell to kids and short statured folks who probably make something that she’d like. 

I’m 5’4” and I have a short torso. I have a hard time fitting bikes because a lot of times I’m on the border of sizes. 

But wheel sizes? I don’t ever see myself comfortable with a 29er. I’ve done a few demos and a few parking lot demos and I just don’t see them the right size for me. 

650b is my big wheel size. I can also ride 26” comfortably but I don’t ever see myself on a 29er. And there’s nothing wrong with that 


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

stripes said:


> Nope. Not yet anyway.
> 
> But I have some thoughts on the matter. Does she still want 26" wheels?


No. She rented a 27.5 hardtail in Spain last week and liked it. But the terrain in Spain, ha, was vastly diff from our high speed non tech trails.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Based on my experience coaching I would not recommend 29.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Someone that size should not be on a 29er, regardless of what pro racers are riding or prevailing wisdom might say.

I'm 5'5" tall and a man and I would not opt for a 29er with so many good bikes out there with smaller wheels.

If the choice was don't ride a bike or ride 29, I would. Since there are options and as a small person, I can choose smaller wheels, I will.


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

Maybe you're overthinking it... the only issue I've had while test riding 29ers has been the lack of standover. I actually stopped to check the wheel size on the Marin Wolf Ridge because I couldn't believe how nimble it felt! If you ride a 27.5 and a 29er back to back then you can feel a difference (usually) but when you ride the same thing all the time you get used to it. My guess is that either of these bikes will feel great compared to her current bike, and whatever she gets she'll learn to ride it slightly differently to get the best out of it. 

Having said that... I'm 5'2" and I ride a 27.5. I prefer a longer travel bike, and there is much more availability in small sized 27.5 bikes with 6" of travel than 29ers.


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## Crunchy Gears (Mar 28, 2017)

My wife is 5' 4" and we had a heck of a time finding a bike that was comfortable for her. The main issue was standover height. We ended up finding the Ibis Mojo 3 fit her great. It has an inch or more of clearance for standover on her size small bike with 27.5+ tires. 
Incidentally, the Mojo 3 can take either 27.5 or 27.5+ tires, so it's pretty versatile that way - especially if you aren't interested in 29ers. 

The issue with a lot of the other bikes were that the standover height would be off on a medium, but if we moved to a small of the same brand (even the Tallboy & Juliana bikes), then often times the standover would improve, but the seat would be pushing her further forward and the top tube was often steeper, so she still didn't have room on them.

I know this isn't specifically answering your "remorse" question, but hopefully it's helpful. We were really hoping to get her on a 27.5+ or 29er because of the improved rollover of obstacles with them - and with the plus tires, improved traction and "forgiveness" 

Good luck!


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Crunchy Gears said:


> My wife is 5' 4" and we had a heck of a time finding a bike that was comfortable for her. The main issue was standover height. We ended up finding the Ibis Mojo 3 fit her great. It has an inch or more of clearance for standover on her size small bike with 27.5+ tires.
> Incidentally, the Mojo 3 can take either 27.5 or 27.5+ tires, so it's pretty versatile that way - especially if you aren't interested in 29ers.
> 
> The issue with a lot of the other bikes were that the standover height would be off on a medium, but if we moved to a small of the same brand (even the Tallboy & Juliana bikes), then often times the standover would improve, but the seat would be pushing her further forward and the top tube was often steeper, so she still didn't have room on them.
> ...


Thank Roxy Lo (Ibis Bike designer) for that  I can ride a medium Mojo 3, but I fit a small HD3. Both had no issues with clearance.

My bike was the first XS Megatrail of the current generation. They flipped the top tube for clearance.

__
http://instagr.am/p/BTVHFWhjyHx/

Personally, I found that plus has its place, but I didn't like it on that bike. I moved to narrower rims and the bike is more responsive and faster. I will be building a plus hardtail though, for those days I need the bigger footprint.

Also, don't assume she's going to want to be on a 29er. Even with improved rollover, they never felt right to me, and I'm also 5'4". But her mileage may vary.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

twodownzero said:


> Someone that size should not be on a 29er, regardless of what pro racers are riding or prevailing wisdom might say.
> 
> I'm 5'5" tall and a man and I would not opt for a 29er with so many good bikes out there with smaller wheels.
> 
> If the choice was don't ride a bike or ride 29, I would. Since there are options and as a small person, I can choose smaller wheels, I will.


My husband is 5'10" and doesn't care for 29ers. He uses one on his commuter bike, but that's all they are for him. Good road wheels.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Well, I know I'm not "sposed" to be in here, but thought I'd share my thoughts and experience 

I'm 6'2" and love 29ers, won't ride anything smaller, well except B+, and some might same I'm a zealot for them because of the many advantages they have, that being said, for anyone under 5'5", I think wheel size plays a very important role and is not something to ignore, not unless you get a good test ride and the bike disappears under you, then get whatever wheel size.

I have a small fleet and offer guided MTB tours and I use mainly 29ers or B+, but for my small frames _(that fit people <5'5"),_ I choose 26" wheels because of standover and how they are proportionately to smaller riders. No one has ever complained about them, have always said how great they are, because they are built well, with good, smart components. So much so, that recently a lady who's around that size rode with me and at the end when I asked her how it was, because I was interested in her thoughts as she owns a lower end 29er HT (mine are all HTs) and she said it was much better everywhere, she didn't even think about the wheelsize, my bike was probably 4-5lbs lighter than hers, setup tubeless with a good fork, 710mm wide bar.

So in essence, I believe if your wife wants something that;'s nimble and responsive, with some roll over benefits, stick to 650B, maybe even try 650B+, but not 29", unless she can get a proper demo and she finds it so good she just rides and doesn't think about it. Spend your money on a good, light set of wheels and the appropriate tyres to suit the terrain and her weight and riding style, set up tubeless of course and dial in the cockpit fit.


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## HappyDawg (Apr 15, 2010)

I'm also 5'2" and I have a 27.5" Nomad, and a Tallboy with two wheelsets -- 29" and 27.5+. My previous bike before these 2 was a 26" Knolly Endorphin. 

Honestly, I did not notice any major difference going from 26" to 27.5". So if she really likes 26", 27.5" is probably similar enough to feel comfortable right off the bat.

I was skeptical of 29" and 27.5+ because of how short I am; I thought I'd feel like I was riding a circus bike or something. But the Tallboy is *really* comfortable for me and it took me about 5 minutes to get used to the bigger wheels. Now I love them. It does encourage a more plow-over-the-things style of riding but that is pretty much how I roll anyway. The Tallboy, even with the big wheelset on, is still pretty nimble -- definitely much more maneuverable than my Nomad which does *not* like tight turns. I also was worried I'd feel sketchy on steep descents because its a more XC-ish bike than I'm used to and has a steeper angle than the Nomad but I was pleasantly surprised at how well it descends, especially for a short-travel bike. We've got a lot of rocky gnarly chunk around here so I have the 130mm fork and have been running the midfat wheelset and it handles everything really well.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

I ran across some smaller girls jamming pretty good on 29ers. Like 5'2" to 5'4" and not much more than 100 lbs. By jamming I mean rolling over some low to moderately rooty / rocky Texas terrain at a pretty good clip, while mostly remaining seated. 

At 5'2", I believe the downside of riding a 29er is that it's difficult to loft / wheelie / pop the bike. At that height, I'd be looking at a 27.5 bike, with room for at least a 2.6 tire for future growth and experimentation. I'd also be looking for a shorter chainstay...certainly less than 17".


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## HappyDawg (Apr 15, 2010)

Yeah, I'd tried 29ers before and they felt like road bikes to me. But the Tallboy is one of the few that is proportioned right for a short person. Have no problem getting the front wheel up -- we have a lot of really technical trails with big rock moves where you really need to pop that front wheel up. Granted, I am used to riding a Nomad which has a super long wheelbase so the 29er actually feels quite frisky to me.


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

twodownzero said:


> Someone that size should not be on a 29er, regardless of what pro racers are riding or prevailing wisdom might say.
> 
> I'm 5'5" tall and a man and I would not opt for a 29er with so many good bikes out there with smaller wheels.
> 
> If the choice was don't ride a bike or ride 29, I would. Since there are options and as a small person, I can choose smaller wheels, I will.


Interestingly, I have a friend who is around 5'2" and weighs maybe 100 lbs. She started racing many years ago on a 26-er. When I first started riding with her she was not comfortable on technical terrain, but being a hard-core competitive type she was alway willing to dismount and run when needed and she usually placed well in races.

A few years ago her husband bought her a Niner Jet 9 for their first anniversary (he is a definitely a keeper). She did a couple of Trek Dirt Series women's clinics and worked on her tech skills. She is now killing it in races all over CO- has been on the podium numerous times in expert class and recently got sponsored by Maxxis. She also posts up videos on Facebook of her riding big rocks and tech for FUN, now.

So as far as the "someone that size should not been on a 29er..." no. Generalizing like that is not helpful. The bottom line is if the bike works for you that is what you should ride.

PS: I'm 5'6" and a woman, and I love my 29er. So far the 27.5 bikes I have demoed have not thrilled me. Different strokes for different folks. /


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm 5'3". My preference is 27.5" for full suspension and 29" for hardtails. I ride a small Evil the Calling (27.5) and am building a small Trek Stache (29+). My hardtail XC race whip was an XS Niner Air9 (and a Kona 29er before that) for the smoother courses and the FS was the Trek Top Fuel (27.5 at size small) for courses with tech.

I've never had buyer's remorse on my 29ers, but they are very purpose-built. And I love, love my 27.5 bikes.


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## maddchase (Nov 30, 2017)

I’m 5’2” and am on 27.5, just felt easier to control the bike on singletrack and techy climbs. The only places I’ve felt disadvantaged has been more flowy XC type rides where the 29er just simply covers more ground but thats not my usual style of riding. Have her try the 5010 if you’re already looking at Santa Cruz. That bike climbs great and is fast and very capable.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

maddchase said:


> I'm 5'2" and am on 27.5, just felt easier to control the bike on singletrack and techy climbs. The only places I've felt disadvantaged has been more flowy XC type rides where the 29er just simply covers more ground but thats not my usual style of riding. Have her try the 5010 if you're already looking at Santa Cruz. That bike climbs great and is fast and very capable.


This weekend we have a small 5010 and small Tallboy, can't wait!


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

westin said:


> This weekend we have a small 5010 and small Tallboy, can't wait!


Sweet! Let us know how it works out 

I test rode these two back to back last March. They felt pretty similar to me, though I preferred the Bronson to both of them.

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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

maddchase said:


> I'm 5'2" and am on 27.5, just felt easier to control the bike on singletrack and techy climbs. The only places I've felt disadvantaged has been more flowy XC type rides where the 29er just simply covers more ground but thats not my usual style of riding. Have her try the 5010 if you're already looking at Santa Cruz. That bike climbs great and is fast and very capable.


90% of her trails are very untechnical aka considered "dirt sidewalks" or they're long sustained climbs with the following high speed non-rocky descents. The rest, 10%, are high mountain steeper tighter terrain but relatively untechnical.

My mouth will be kept shut this weekend as to which she is "better" on. I'll set them both up with 25% sag and dial in the cockpit best I can. Take along shock pump and good multitool and a lot of patience.


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

Just a quick note on setting up the 5010 and Tallboy... at my weight (115) I found the Fox forks to be harsher than the Pikes I tried on other bikes. The Fox rear shocks were better than the forks and I didn't notice them to be overly harsh. I would go closer to 30% sag on the fork if it doesn't feel great right away. 

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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

westin said:


> 90% of her trails are very untechnical aka considered "dirt sidewalks" or they're long sustained climbs with the following high speed non-rocky descents. The rest, 10%, are high mountain steeper tighter terrain but relatively untechnical.
> 
> My mouth will be kept shut this weekend as to which she is "better" on. I'll set them both up with 25% sag and dial in the cockpit best I can. Take along shock pump and good multitool and a lot of patience.


Are you assuming both bikes require 25% sag or do you know if this is their recommended settings?

Smart man  let her decide.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

stripes said:


> Are you assuming both bikes require 25% sag or do you know if this is their recommended settings?
> 
> Smart man  let her decide.


Going off my past SC ownership, my current 25 to 30% trail bike setup and online reviews. And 30% fork setup was also suggested.

She's a very XC oriented rider and thought about getting a HT so I figured 30% of a 130mm bike would be too wallowy for her trails. But the shock pump will be along and I'll patiently listen to what she says.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

After setting sag and tire pressure and making cockpit adjustments (other than the super wide bars) the Tallboy 29 S and Bronson S spent a lot of time on fast sandy climbs, steep muddy summits, tight switchbacks and medium speed off camber descents. The 5010 wasn't available as promised.

The Bronson was at immediately disadvantage with its heavy Minion tires. She said it felt like two anchors. The TB had a heavy Minion front but a fast XC rear.

Long story short: the 5'2" aggressive XC racer took a bit to learn how to plan the 29er's turn, but after that she was on fire fast! Loved everything about it. I'd say the cornering on the up and down switchbacks would be rated as "I know how to clean them" if that makes sense. Liked how it didn't feel like the wagon wheel stories her friends told. Liked the stiffer XC short travel feel.

The 150mm Bronson's 66d HA wasn't the issue I presume it'd be. It was mainly the slow back tire. At first she thought it'd turn like her old 26er, but quickly learned it took a little bit of effort. Obviously not 29er effort, but she couldn't get totally lazy. She doesn't need or want 150mm, and when asked if 130mm of 27.5 would be the "just right" answer she said the 110/120 Tallboy felt "just right."

After the ride I tried telling her a 130mm 5010 with lighter fast rolling tires would split the difference and feel about 20% more XC than the Bronson. She couldn't wrap her head around that. Maybe my guesstimate was off base. The 5010 demo we'd buy is the $4800 S build discounted heavily.

Asked if she could turn that 29er after 3 hours in the heat with a long climb out peppered with switchbacks. Her reply "it's not the bike or the turning, at that point it's all about fitness and technique."

Unfortunately we can't demo a 2018 Anthem 2 with its 110 rear and 130 front. It's about 27.5 pounds and spec'd wonderfully. At $2809 out the door it's a good deal, but no demo = no buy. Maybe I search for a short travel XC/light trail FS 27.5 with near identical Santa Cruz geometry. Time is on our side.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

westin said:


> After setting sag and tire pressure and making cockpit adjustments (other than the super wide bars) the Tallboy 29 S and Bronson S spent a lot of time on fast sandy climbs, steep muddy summits, tight switchbacks and medium speed off camber descents. The 5010 wasn't available as promised.
> 
> The Bronson was at immediately disadvantage with its heavy Minion tires. She said it felt like two anchors. The TB had a heavy Minion front but a fast XC rear.
> 
> ...


So obviously it's whatever she's comfortable with..

But I disagree that fitness is related to wheel size. If you can, see if you can get her on the 5010 and see what she thinks. I've heard really good things about that bike.

The Nomad might be overkill for what you guys like anyway.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

stripes said:


> So obviously it's whatever she's comfortable with..
> 
> But I disagree that fitness is related to wheel size. If you can, see if you can get her on the 5010 and see what she thinks. I've heard really good things about that bike.
> 
> The Nomad might be overkill for what you guys like anyway.


No small 5010 within 4 hours of home. She's taking the TB out tomorrow on night ride. At dinner discussed the "would having lightweight 5010 demo sway you from TB?" It seemed to be a 25% "yes" but for her xc fast flowy and long climb terrain the TB speed makes her smile. Doesn't hurt that it's 30% off and in stock at local dealer who will apply demo fee to bike purchase. If this 29er fits perfect and excels at 90% of her riding terrain then it's all I can ask for in a 1 bike garage.


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## maddchase (Nov 30, 2017)

If she likes the bike, puts a smile on her face, does mostly XC or endurance and it fits... I suppose you have your answer. Get whatever bike that make her want to keep riding. 

The Bronson is a great bike but excels when you point it downhill really.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

westin said:


> No small 5010 within 4 hours of home. She's taking the TB out tomorrow on night ride. At dinner discussed the "would having lightweight 5010 demo sway you from TB?" It seemed to be a 25% "yes" but for her xc fast flowy and long climb terrain the TB speed makes her smile. Doesn't hurt that it's 30% off and in stock at local dealer who will apply demo fee to bike purchase. If this 29er fits perfect and excels at 90% of her riding terrain then it's all I can ask for in a 1 bike garage.


Yeah then get her what she likes. That's all that's important right?


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

maddchase said:


> If she likes the bike, puts a smile on her face, does mostly XC or endurance and it fits... I suppose you have your answer. Get whatever bike that make her want to keep riding.
> 
> The Bronson is a great bike but excels when you point it downhill really.


Exactly. Here's copy of her Strava story to her little sister. Hopefully this thread helps a shorter rider decide what's the "best" bike for their own needs. Thanks to all for the input.

"It was really fun, but is SO HARD to compare a bike I can't ride to a bike I can ride! That said, the Tallboy is pretty amazing. I thought 29" wheels would feel huge, but they didn't. It took a little getting used to on tighter turns, but felt like I was hardly working to go uphills compared to both my bike and the Bronson. The Bronson is downhilly (longer travel), but it didn't actually feel smoother downhill - just bouncier. I know the 5010 would feel different than the Bronson - somewhere between the two - but the Tallboy is just so awesomely fast and smooth! I really expected to like the 5010 best. Plus I could get the Juliana version and have a bike with my name on it - which would be so cool!! But I really think it's the Tallboy. A tall boy for a short girl, I guess?"


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Well, well, well. Things have changed. The Tallboy went out on a very steep very sticky ride. She's done it for years on her 26er with 3x gearing, and tonight's ride was an eye opener.

With 30T crank and Trs 9-46 cassette she was miserable pulling the big wheels up the slow speed climbs. She described it as "the speeds were either very slow or very fast, and I was not having fun in the middle." When it was faster flowy XC trails the big wheel Tallboy was near perfect. Tonight's ride was closer to simulating how she'd feel at the end of a 3 hour steep day in sand, in the heat and switchbacks, and the Tallboy is no longer an option.

We could stick Eagle drivetrain on a Tallboy to get low enough gearing, but that has nothing to do with the big wheels tackling steep sandy tight switchbacks or bulldogging down tight descents.

I've never paid to demo let alone demo two bikes over multiple days. But this was worth every penny.


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## maddchase (Nov 30, 2017)

It’s good that she got to try the bike in different situations. Better to know now that regret the purchase. Well if the hunt is still on, try her on the 5010 or the Juliana furtado it’s the same bike, and they climb really well and very lively. I’m actually on a trek, and my bike has served me well, but I went to a demo day with a bunch of brands and was very taken by how great the 5010 was up and down. 

The 27.5 may not be as fast on the flowy XC but punchy steep stuff and switchbacks it’s noticeable that the smaller wheels have the advantage there. See if they will put what you pay towards the purchase of the bike, or comp a 5010 demo ride. My lbs tried to work out stuff for the regulars and serious buyers. Keep us posted.


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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

westin said:


> Well, well, well. Things have changed. The Tallboy went out on a very steep very sticky ride. She's done it for years on her 26er with 3x gearing, and tonight's ride was an eye opener.
> 
> With 30T crank and Trs 9-46 cassette she was miserable pulling the big wheels up the slow speed climbs. She described it as "the speeds were either very slow or very fast, and I was not having fun in the middle." When it was faster flowy XC trails the big wheel Tallboy was near perfect. Tonight's ride was closer to simulating how she'd feel at the end of a 3 hour steep day in sand, in the heat and switchbacks, and the Tallboy is no longer an option.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that gearing changes between wheel sizes. The same gearing on the 27.5 will be easier than in a 29er. The increase in wheel diameter changes it. Would be dame effect going 26 to 27.5.

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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

maddchase said:


> It's good that she got to try the bike in different situations. Better to know now that regret the purchase. Well if the hunt is still on, try her on the 5010 or the Juliana furtado it's the same bike, and they climb really well and very lively. I'm actually on a trek, and my bike has served me well, but I went to a demo day with a bunch of brands and was very taken by how great the 5010 was up and down.
> 
> The 27.5 may not be as fast on the flowy XC but punchy steep stuff and switchbacks it's noticeable that the smaller wheels have the advantage there. See if they will put what you pay towards the purchase of the bike, or comp a 5010 demo ride. My lbs tried to work out stuff for the regulars and serious buyers. Keep us posted.


A small Juliana Furtado C S build is being shipped to us tomorrow. Wanted to buy from the great LBS who gave us two demo bikes for 3 days at a screaming price, but they didn't have anything in her size or build kit. 
I'll get a set of lighter xc tires and keep the burlier tread for trips to the desert or when conditions get super loose over hardpack and decomposed. And putting on a lighter stem and carbon bar that'll be cut down.
Again, thanks to all for the input.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

As someone who is always interested in expanding my knowledge, I'm curious as to why your wife went for the Furtado over the regular 5010, was it simply she liked the blue over the red/black options for the 5010, or was there something more? Have to ask as I'm curious if it was just that it's the "women's specific" of the brand and the marketing really did win out or something else maybe swayed her since they are the same frame and components except for the saddle and grips.



westin said:


> A small Juliana Furtado C S build is being shipped to us tomorrow. Wanted to buy from the great LBS who gave us two demo bikes for 3 days at a screaming price, but they didn't have anything in her size or build kit.
> I'll get a set of lighter xc tires and keep the burlier tread for trips to the desert or when conditions get super loose over hardpack and decomposed. And putting on a lighter stem and carbon bar that'll be cut down.
> Again, thanks to all for the input.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

LyNx said:


> As someone who is always interested in expanding my knowledge, I'm curious as to why your wife went for the Furtado over the regular 5010, was it simply she liked the blue over the red/black options for the 5010, or was there something more? Have to ask as I'm curious if it was just that it's the "women's specific" of the brand and the marketing really did win out or something else maybe swayed her since they are the same frame and components except for the saddle and grips.


We could not find any sales on the 5010 online such as Cambria's blowout sale or bike classifieds or any dealers within 6 hours of home (road trips are always fun).

My local dealer, whom I wanted to support, only had a small 5010 in the $4800 build + tax. He would've given us a small percentage off the 2018 model. We found a Furtado in the same C frame and S build for near-wholesale delivered.

My local dealer said the "women's tune" suspension was minimal if anything at all. The marketing of grips and saddle were moot to us: replaced with her favorites. But....

Her name is Julia Anna, and it was cool having a bike named Juliana.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

That bolded statement right there, that's reason enough 



westin said:


> We could not find any sales on the 5010 online such as Cambria's blowout sale or bike classifieds or any dealers within 6 hours of home (road trips are always fun).
> 
> My local dealer, whom I wanted to support, only had a small 5010 in the $4800 build + tax. He would've given us a small percentage off the 2018 model. We found a Furtado in the same C frame and S build for near-wholesale delivered.
> 
> ...


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