# Automobiles moving from 12V to 48V electrical systems with bike-sized Li-Ion battery



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/247889-cars-moving-48-volt-electrical-systems

This is really cool. It's not hybrid electric/gas power, it's gas power with electricity running most/all of the accessory functions besides propulsion. The Lithium ion battery in the autos is not much larger than the one on most e-bikes. The moral of the story is that this isn't just happening to bicycles, it's happening to just about everything that moves. And it will reduce emissions. E-bikes are simply part of a larger trend in the 2nd electrical revolution.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Read up on this about a year ago and it seems like it is going to take hold incrementally. https://www.continental-automotive....y-Trends/Electrification/48-Volt-Technologies

Continental also make a 48v mid drive system that doesn't show up in many bikes but seems viable for commuter type bikes. Continental Bicycle Systems - 48V Revolution


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Ram Pickups have a 48V system for 2019 that is basically what is described in the article. 

Google "eTorque".


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

richj8990 said:


> The moral of the story is that this isn't just happening to bicycles, it's happening to just about everything that moves.












Yup. Saw this ^^ on one of the popular hiking/backpacking sites. Prototype e-hiking rig. There is no stopping the revolution now.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

vikb said:


>


Oh yeah. Just wait until the Sierra Club gets a look at that.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

vikb said:


> Yup. Saw this ^^ on one of the popular hiking/backpacking sites. Prototype e-hiking rig. There is no stopping the revolution now.


So I'm sitting on my couch imagining how awesome it'll be to watch along on my iPhone while this thing hikes for me and suddenly disappointment rears its ugly head. I realized it won't be allowed in designated Wilderness. Damn.
=sParty


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

First Segways taking over the world, and now this!!:eekster:


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Harryman said:


> First Segways taking over the world, and now this!!:eekster:


What will really blow your mind is an e-Hiker riding an e-Bike.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

It’s funny that I posted about the coming of this technology over a year ago and was roundly flamed. The consensus then was IIRC that I was just trolling and such a thing was decades away if it would ever come.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> It's funny that I posted about the coming of this technology over a year ago and was roundly flamed. The consensus then was IIRC that I was just trolling and such a thing was decades away if it would ever come.


When I can buy one at (insert name of local emporium) I'll say you were right.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Harryman said:


> First Segways taking over the world, and now this!!:eekster:


Segways are 12V, but I'll slip in a note to them for a future 48V conversion, just for you...


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

WoodlandHills said:


> It's funny that I posted about the coming of this technology over a year ago and was roundly flamed. The consensus then was IIRC that I was just trolling and such a thing was decades away if it would ever come.


And that's why you put haters on ignore, and move on with your life and postings.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Black Friday deals on these this year are supposed to be off the charts.









48v with 12v for the lighter option. And red is always fast.....


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Here's another one:

Harley-Davidson's electric motorcycle signals a big change for the legendary but troubled company

Harley Davidson will debut a fully-electric motorcycle early next year. Harley Davidson! If they are going to do it, everyone will do it.

And then: https://improb.com/best-electric-dirt-bikes/

One out of ten of these featured electric dirt bikes have real pedals that work, the other nine are true motorcycles. I assume that the pedal version is Class 4 e-bike?

Power-wise no comparison with e-bikes; the electric dirt bikes in the article often have 18,000 watts, which is almost 100 times more power than many of the mid-drive e-bikes.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

richj8990 said:


> I assume that the pedal version is Class 4 e-bike?


No such thing as a Class 4 ebike. There are ebikes, (Class 1-3, fed definition, particular state definitions) and then you get into electric moped or e-moto territory, depending on your states particular definitions of such.

One on that list, Alta motors has croaked, which is too bad, they were making a nice emoto, just couldn't sell it for what they needed to.

https://www.cycleworld.com/alta-motors-ceases-operations


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Harryman said:


> No such thing as a Class 4 ebike. There are ebikes, (Class 1-3, fed definition, particular state definitions) and then you get into electric moped or e-moto territory, depending on your states particular definitions of such.
> 
> One on that list, Alta motors has croaked, which is too bad, they were making a nice emoto, just couldn't sell it for what they needed to.
> 
> https://www.cycleworld.com/alta-motors-ceases-operations


So my 1000W pedal assist bike, which I'm pretty sure can go over 20 MPH, is class 3? Maybe not 20+ mph with throttle only, but for sure with pedaling and maybe with ghost pedaling at full power.

So it's technically not allowed offroad in California because it's a class 3? Any distinction between a 'bike path', a fire/gravel road, and a real trail?

Keep in mind that I never use more than 500W offroad, it's unusable due to torque wheelspin with my particular setup, so nothing over around 12-15 mph offroad, if that makes any distinction in class 2 vs. 3. I may get a 2nd e-bike later and relegate this 1000W one I have to pavement anyway.

My final rationalization: a lot cars can go over 100 mph but don't. That doesn't mean they should be banned from roads just because they could go over 100 mph.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> My final rationalization: a lot cars can go over 100 mph but don't. That doesn't mean they should be banned from roads just because they could go over 100 mph.


I'm surprised how often this is brought up. Roads are for commerce and moving people and stuff from point A to point B as efficiently as possible. There are posted speed limits but of course everyone breaks them, and they would break them by a lot more if there weren't an industry of cops patrolling the roads and handing out citations. Road rage is prevalent for obvious reasons.

Trails and bike paths are where people go to recreate and escape such things.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> Any distinction between a 'bike path', a fire/gravel road, and a real trail?


Most gravel roads and many fire roads allow cars, trucks or whatever so any sort of motor is most likely ok. My distinction has always been whether it has a "no motor vehicles" sign or not but I guess that doesn't fly these days.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Harryman said:


> No such thing as a Class 4 ebike. There are ebikes, (Class 1-3, fed definition, particular state definitions) and then you get into electric moped or e-moto territory, depending on your states particular definitions of such.
> 
> One on that list, Alta motors has croaked, which is too bad, they were making a nice emoto, just couldn't sell it for what they needed to.
> 
> https://www.cycleworld.com/alta-motors-ceases-operations


That really sucks. Alta made the most badass electric Dirtbike. Hopefully the competitors can produce an equivalent product.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

richj8990 said:


> So my 1000W pedal assist bike, which I'm pretty sure can go over 20 MPH, is class 3? Maybe not 20+ mph with throttle only, but for sure with pedaling and maybe with ghost pedaling at full power.
> 
> So it's technically not allowed offroad in California because it's a class 3? Any distinction between a 'bike path', a fire/gravel road, and a real trail?
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure you've read the regs, they're simple.

Class 1-3 are 750w, class 1, 20mph/PAS only, class 2, 20mph throttle, class 3, 28mph PAS only. Older state laws, where the class system hasn't been adopted are 750w/20mph, throttles or PAS, one or two are 1000w/20mph.

So no, 1000w alone puts you outside of the class regs in CA. Depending on where you live, it's likely not legally an ebike. If it's not legally an ebike, then it's a motor vehicle and is only legal on the road. Some people are just getting moped licenses for them, it's easy and cheap apparently.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Does this mean all of Rich's posts will be deleted as he's been riding illegally? Apparently on and off the road.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Harryman said:


> I'm pretty sure you've read the regs, they're simple.
> 
> Class 1-3 are 750w, class 1, 20mph/PAS only, class 2, 20mph throttle, class 3, 28mph PAS only. Older state laws, where the class system hasn't been adopted are 750w/20mph, throttles or PAS, one or two are 1000w/20mph.
> 
> So no, 1000w alone puts you outside of the class regs in CA. Depending on where you live, it's likely not legally an ebike. If it's not legally an ebike, then it's a motor vehicle and is only legal on the road. Some people are just getting moped licenses for them, it's easy and cheap apparently.


Thank you for the information; the next time I'm at the LBS that did the conversion, I will have them detune it to 500W. I don't need that much wattage anyway.Maybe I can even do it directly with a 10 AMP fuse.


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## mousehunter (Sep 22, 2015)

Human interaction with laws of physics. Power is basically votes x amps. It is cheaper with many of today’s electrical devices to deal with higher volts and lower amps than higher amps and lower volts. So for cheaper higher power, you up the volts.

US defines high voltage in vehicles as greater than 60 volts. If it is high voltage, extra safety laws come into play. High voltage is more expensive. 

And please understand this has everything to do with regulations. They want to milk everything they can to meet epa minimums (and caf), which means automatic engine cut off at stop signs-which is the main driver for the 48v-a beefier starter, but if they can make the ac more efficient, it just helps the numbers. Of course once they beefed up the starter, mild hybrid is going to happen, because nobody actually appreciates waiting for the engine to start at every stop sign.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I was doing some research on electrified mass transit, something more efficient than ebikes, and came across this article that highlighted the downfall of the electric street car.

https://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/murder-machines/

I see parallels between the fear-mongering back then and now...

I see the auto industry in even more of a negative light now. They essentially took over the roads, making pedestrians and cyclists to be the ones who need to watch for themselves, with infrastructure improvements such as crosswalks and bike paths put in so drivers are inconvenienced even less, by foot and bicycle traffic.

---

Kinda of surprised that autos didn't go to 48V earlier. Had the impression that the 12V infrastructure was a bit too big to fail, reading about it. It's clearly beneficial to have higher volt systems, to gain efficiency.

The change makes me curious about infrastructure planning though, such as those lanes that provide induction based charging. If there's a voltage difference, I'm guessing there will be a relatively trouble-free way to convert it efficiently?

---

Somewhat related, I've read that humans have a sense of electrical fields. It can explain some supernatural fears, such as feeling a house is haunted, which may in fact have bad wiring. I wonder how additional electrical infrastructure will affect us undesirably, or maybe purposely affect us like sending us a message that a near silent electric car is approaching from behind through a frequency we detect not through sound, touch, nor vision.

We do have that sense that someone is behind us, watching us, that has been studied. Electrical stimulus to the angular gyrus...


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

ninjichor said:


> Somewhat related, I've read that humans have a sense of electrical fields. It can explain some supernatural fears, such as feeling a house is haunted, which may in fact have bad wiring. I wonder how additional electrical infrastructure will affect us undesirably, or maybe purposely affect us like sending us a message that a near silent electric car is approaching from behind through a frequency we detect not through sound, touch, nor vision.
> 
> We do have that sense that someone is behind us, watching us, that has been studied. Electrical stimulus to the angular gyrus...


Yes, we are affected by electrical fields. Most people don't notice them but some do. Many of us wonder if a cell phone caused cancer on someone's ear or cheek, hard to prove but you do have to wonder, if someone used their phone up close for years and then suddenly got cancer on the one side of their face they used the phone on.

Most of the people that notice electrical fields are, for better or worse, neurotics that are also overly sensitive to a lot of other things. That doesn't mean that they are making it all up when they say they feel an electrical field. It just means that clinically it's not so easy to prove. It's hard to know if a positive ion generator can 'cure' depression or not. Maybe it really works, maybe it's just a placebo effect, not unlike going to a therapist and feeling better after blabbing about all of one's problems.

I've talked with a couple of different women in the past that were really sensitive to electrical fields. One of them got rid of every single electrical appliance in their home, no TV, no computer, nothing (I think she spoke with me about it on a landline). It made her feel better, but was it really the electrical fields or not? I don't know for sure either way. But like cell phones, you do have to wonder about the rise in cancer rates, anxiety, depression, all kinds of metabolic and neurological problems that were much more uncommon 70 years ago.

The other lady had a decent amount of psychic ability, pretty impressive actually. I won't go into detail about what happened but it was interesting to say the least. Something about it was real for sure, I was not tricked. She was also a bit psychotic too, but as I joked around with my primary care physician about it: just because someone is psychotic doesn't mean they don't have psychic powers. The two go hand in hand. If someone has one foot in reality and another foot in some alternative, parallel dimension, then it's not too shocking that they would have what would be considered in this reality as psychotic behavior.


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