# Leverage curve question for those on the heavier side



## CascadeComponents (Aug 7, 2019)

Hey everyone,

As some of you might know, we make lots of linkages that increase progression. With a fixed travel amount this always entails an increased initial leverage ratio. This of course makes it a no-go for anyone who's at or near max pressure or spring rate already. As more and more stock bikes become more progressive without increasing shock stroke, our question to you is would you prefer a link that made the bike less progressive in order to drop the initial leverage ratio? An example using the new Stumpjumper Evo is that, by decreasing progression to 9% from 19%, the leverage ratio at the sag point could be decreased to 2.7 from 2.9. This would result in shock pressures that are about 7% lower. In my mind the trade is potentially having better control over ride height in exchange for ramp through the linkage. At the end of the day, in my opinion, a longer stroke shock is the true solution here, but there are plenty of frames where this is constrained so no increase is possible.

Good kinematics for heavier riders seems to be a real problem in the bike world. I can't stand in your shoes because I'm not a very big guy, so any input is much appreciated.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Imo, no. At least not on stock shocks. I'll preface this by stating the obvious, I'm not an engineer or intimately familiar with the physics of compressed gas, piston surface area, etc. 

I'm currently on the new Evo and have intently read your posts over there. I'm at 340psi in the stock DPX2. I find that at those PSI's overall the shock and volume work well for me. However I feel like it could use more leverage off the top, nor do I have a problem really bottoming it out. I just came off of the newer Rallon and felt the same way about both of the linkages Orbea offered. Again I can't speak to the effect of compressed gas at those PSIs versus the volume or the piston surface area or how much is the tune of the shock. 

If there was a way to magically increase initial leverage without giving up anything in pedaling, now that I would take. I'm much more concerned with mid stroke support. At least regarding the dpx2 on my last two bikes I've not had an issue with bottom out at those PSIs. Leading up to the latest DPX2 I was always filling my shocks with the maximum amount of volume spacers, both negative and positive chambers. 

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## CascadeComponents (Aug 7, 2019)

For anyone who can get the correct ride height as is there's no reason to reduce progression in my opinion either. If you're at 340 psi and the ride height is good then no reason to change anything. Let's say someone is at 350 psi and running 35% sag (give or take) though. At that point it seems like a bit of a pick your poison situation. The only way to decrease the amount of sag in that case would be less progression. Less progression isn't ideal, but neither is excessive sag.


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## Sasquatch1413 (Nov 6, 2008)

I'm usually around 330-340 and have to be careful about FS bikes I buy as I can't get sag unless LR is about 2.6-2.7 max. So far i've ridden Niner's and currently on a 2019 Sentinel. Always looking for strong bikes with low LR's but I also know I'm a very smaller percentage of the MTB market.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

I have a V1 Ripmo. Currently I sit at about 270lbs fully kitted. 

In order to get the 14mm of sag suggested by Ibis I have to push my X2 to over the 300psi max. Usually about 307-310 is what I have found to work. My DPX2 is the same way as well. And I bottom them both out on most rides. 

The ibis has a very unique LR, that decrease relatively fast through its travel and then rises slightly at the bottom. It also has a very high anti squat that lends itself to such a successful climber. 

Personally, I love the way it climbs, but I would give up some of that pedal performance in order to sit higher in the travel at a safer PSI. 

So yea ... I’d give up some. How much, I don’t know. 


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## Tmiabm (Mar 20, 2021)

I currently ride a 2020 reign 29 and only have to put 190 psi to get 30% at 240 lbs. I’ve never owned a full suspension that I’ve been near the max pressures, but have mostly run bikes with longer stroke shocks.


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

Tmiabm said:


> 2020 reign 29


Which shock is on there? The Giant site says it's a RockShox Deluxe Select+ and they usually advise rider's weight in PSI.


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

I looked into your linkage for my TB4. Unfortunately, SC states this would void my frame's warranty. I know a handful of riders who aren't clydes and swear by you linkage. However, no upgrade is worth voiding my warranty.


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## CascadeComponents (Aug 7, 2019)

bingemtbr said:


> I looked into your linkage for my TB4. Unfortunately, SC states this would void my frame's warranty. I know a handful of riders who aren't clydes and swear by you linkage. However, no upgrade is worth voiding my warranty.


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## Tmiabm (Mar 20, 2021)

TooTallUK said:


> Which shock is on there? The Giant site says it's a RockShox Deluxe Select+ and they usually advise rider's weight in PSI.


It is the deluxe select plus, I just installed the megneg air can and am now running 220psi for 28% sag. I was definitely surprised as they do usually run body weight for the maestro suspension


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

CascadeComponents said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Good kinematics for heavier riders seems to be a real problem in the bike world. I can't stand in your shoes because I'm not a very big guy, so any input is much appreciated.


Like I said, I know I'd give up some leverage ratio, and I'm willing to bet guys who are at the limit would too.

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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

CascadeComponents said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> As some of you might know, we make lots of linkages that increase progression. With a fixed travel amount this always entails an increased initial leverage ratio. This of course makes it a no-go for anyone who's at or near max pressure or spring rate already. As more and more stock bikes become more progressive without increasing shock stroke, our question to you is would you prefer a link that made the bike less progressive in order to drop the initial leverage ratio? An example using the new Stumpjumper Evo is that, by decreasing progression to 9% from 19%, the leverage ratio at the sag point could be decreased to 2.7 from 2.9. This would result in shock pressures that are about 7% lower. In my mind the trade is potentially having better control over ride height in exchange for ramp through the linkage. At the end of the day, in my opinion, a longer stroke shock is the true solution here, but there are plenty of frames where this is constrained so no increase is possible.
> 
> Good kinematics for heavier riders seems to be a real problem in the bike world. I can't stand in your shoes because I'm not a very big guy, so any input is much appreciated.


I find myself at the limits of air pressure with a lot of bikes and would absolutely be interested in options like this! I have been considering the new Stumpy Evo and excessive sag is a concern that has (so far) put me off getting the bike.


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## BigJZ74 (Jul 18, 2010)

I've floated between 240-340lbs back and forth for the last decade.....and have owned a bunch of full sus bikes....I typically only run bikes that run @ pressures close to body weight or 10-20psi above. I do like a progressive suspension but I do think dropping the progression would be interesting if the shock had room to increase the spacers to add that back progression in. It also depends on the terrain you ride...Not everyone needs a ton of progression as they aren't riding terrain that warrants it. I do like the new metric shocks that have the same i2i w/ ability to run different strokes...I've long stroked my Trek Rail from 57.5 to 65, and my Rallon from 60 to 65mm... Made both bikes~170mm rear travel and supple yet more supportive with increased progression. I swap between Fox Factory DPX2's and DHX2's on both bikes. I did the same on my Evil Calling as well which made running a coil on that frame near perfect. I still want you to make a link for my Evil Wreckoning V3. If you made both types I'd probably buy both just to see how each felt...lol


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

The debonair, evo, corset cans sort of artificially increase the initial rate... Sort of, in effect. 

These cans force sag to 35% with ultra high pressures. Simply removing the can for a standard can dramatically lowers your pressure and raises the bike. 

The forced sag cans are a nightmare for bigger guys. I think addressing that works better than chasing frame ratios, within reason.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I switched to cascade link on my 2020 stumpy. Definitely needed a boost in spring rate cause I'm already a big guy not to mention had to play with shock tuning.

It's odd for me because as I've gotten the tuning about right now, I like how it rides except I have to watch it, bottoms out a little too easy. But the trade off for decent small bump compliance.

But something that drops the leverage ratio wouldn't be a bad thing for sure. Drop spring rage down makes more tunable I'd think.

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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

I would definitely be up for a link that reduces the overall ratio. Lots of bikes out there are unsuitable for heavier guys with coil or air. Most rhyme with “Meshalized”


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## greenchris (Feb 25, 2005)

CascadeComponents said:


> Good kinematics for heavier riders seems to be a real problem in the bike world. I can't stand in your shoes because I'm not a very big guy, so any input is much appreciated.


hey CC- I'm pretty sure we discussed this topic via email a while back. I'm currently keen on grabbing a Raaw or something similar for the exact reasons. Long stroke, low LR, flatter curve. This should be a recipe for an amazing bike for a big dude.

In the near term I'd be interested in seeing what you'd come up with. Mainly its impact on small bump and how that suspension transitions throughout the stroke. I'm running above max PSI on a tallboy and Hightower. Lots of rocks nearby if you need a test rider 

chris


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

I run an 18 stumpy xxl and weigh 265lbs
swapped in a yari and dvo shock. Note: xxl was only avail as a comp model w a 32mm reba so that happened at time of sale.

anywhooo

the DVO sets up deep. So I have made a custom offset bushing for the top mount and my own flip chip for the bottom mount. 2mm thick.
the bike now sits up nicely for pedalling. Just put it back on today again after a spring rebuild. the monarch rt3, goes in during services, That shock keeps the rear end up without the flip chip, and I run a smaller offset bushing With it. It just chatters away under me on small hits. Though it does well w big hits. The dvo is supple and smooth. But there is virtually no change between the t3 settings.

Problem with the stumpy is my weight and riding style destroys the shaft inside the DVO in about two months.

so I wouldn’t mind something like the bike yoke to try to increase shock reliability.

id prefer less pressure to keep the tune in the center, less sag to set up for pedalling, a supple starting stroke with some ramp up. 

I run 275psi monarch and 290 dvo.

us clydes need help in general. Never bought a fuel ex as the bike couldn’t set sag with max psi in the showroom. 

send me your test linkages to try.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Ran a Manitou McLeod with custom tuning for heavy riders and it was great. Installed on a DiamondBack Release that has great leverage for heavy riders too so it was a great setup. Rode it at 280-300-ish. Still have the frame. Selling it in fact. Just didn't ride full-suspension enough so I stripped the bikes and used the parts on a different build.


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## 9GUY9 (Jul 14, 2007)

I would love to see more products to help heavier riders on FS bikes. I am 250lbs and ride fairly aggressivley. I just built up a new Evil Following, a bike that everyone raves about its poppy playful ride. I have to run 300psi in the RockShox Deluxe to get 30% sag, and the ride is kinda meh... I think by the time you are running this much pressure you have exceeded the stock dampening abilities. 

I aslo agree with Cascade about whishing manufactures would run longer shocks, reducing the work load on the shock. I recall years ago a company perhaps San Andresas Mountain Cycles running much longer shocks and making a big deal of how it was easier to tune amonst other bennifits.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Pretty sure you just need a longer shock in relation to the amount of travel to lower the leverage ratio. Just need to shop for bikes that do that.
I'd agree that my '21 Evo needs more progression, and with the Cascade, it also needs a 650# spring. This is excessive. 
Hopefully the next version of this bike will have a longer shock & more progression. 

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## 9GUY9 (Jul 14, 2007)

Suns_PSD said:


> Pretty sure you just need a longer shock in relation to the amount of travel to lower the leverage ratio. Just need to shop for bikes that do that.
> I'd agree that my '21 Evo needs more progression, and with the Cascade, it also needs a 650# spring. This is excessive.
> Hopefully the next version of this bike will have a longer shock & more progression.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


I think we are all in agreement on that. However manuafactures are not looking to design bikes optimized for 200lb+ riders and have little reason to do so. So a aftermarket company like cascade offering to make links with more favorable leverage ratios is probably our best bet.


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## BigJZ74 (Jul 18, 2010)

9GUY9 said:


> I would love to see more products to help heavier riders on FS bikes. I am 250lbs and ride fairly aggressivley. I just built up a new Evil Following, a bike that everyone raves about its poppy playful ride. I have to run 300psi in the RockShox Deluxe to get 30% sag, and the ride is kinda meh... I think by the time you are running this much pressure you have exceeded the stock dampening abilities.
> 
> I aslo agree with Cascade about whishing manufactures would run longer shocks, reducing the work load on the shock. I recall years ago a company perhaps San Andresas Mountain Cycles running much longer shocks and making a big deal of how it was easier to tune amonst other bennifits.


Super Deluxe is the issue, I've had an Insurgent V1, Calling, and now a Wreckoning V3 and all were and is amazing. Ohlins STX22air on the Insurgent, DHX2 on the Calling, and DHX2/DPX2 on the Wrecker. Small bump is great, Thru the rough rocky jank they were perfect too. and I'm 300lbs.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Yes definitely. 2020 Enduro. 190lb and the X2 needs 275psi to get to 27% sag


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

9GUY9 said:


> I think we are all in agreement on that. However manuafactures are not looking to design bikes optimized for 200lb+ riders and have little reason to do so. So a aftermarket company like cascade offering to make links with more favorable leverage ratios is probably our best bet.


Cascade gets more progression out of the same length shock, by increasing the starting leverage ratio, hence the stiffer spring rates that Cascades require. For reasons I don't understand they are unable to increase progression by lowering the ending ratio. Maybe it's just a space issue? I've also noticed that the increase in progression is always the same as the increase in travel, by %. Not totally clear on the connections between shock length, travel length, LR, limitations, etc.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

I ran a RockShox Monarch Plus RC3 DebonAir before the McLeod and it was basically worthless. I had to have it maxed out on PSI to hit sag but then the ride quality was garbage and lockout was non-existent. I was about done with full suspension until I got the custom valved McLeod. It was great. I just wish I could find a new full suspension frame that I could swap it onto that will be more of a fit for my riding. My DiamondBack was a great bike...but I don't care for the 27.5 wheel size, I can't fit a 29" wheel on the frame, and I don't need a mid-travel (150mm front, 130 rear) bike for what I ride.


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