# titanium bolts: Loctite instead of anti-seize?



## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

I've always used anti-seize when installing titanium bolts. However, I'm getting ready to install some titanium axle bolts, which need to stay nice and tight. I'd be inclined to use blue Loctite if it were a standard steel bolt, but what about titanium?


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## Tiffster (Jan 30, 2008)

I never actually use anything on my Ti bolts. They get adjusted enough frequently enough to not need it if you ask me.

If it needs to stay tight however i would go with a low strenght loctite.


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## Smart Sam (Jul 12, 2008)

Loctite adds weight 

Seriously i would use a weakish loctite just in case the bolt get stuck. If its alu then maybe anti sieze ti and alu can oxidise and sieze.


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## pastajet (May 26, 2006)

Anti Seize


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

I'd use anit-seize, not loctite on titanium bolts... and just torque them to spec using a good torque wrench


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

Nothing wrong with using loctite. I use loctite for axle locking bolts. 

Loctite aka thread locker will lubricate threads before curing to prevent galling. Inhibit galvanic corrosion as it prevents moisture build up and insulates against ion transfer. 

I use medium strength (typically blue) for any fastener M5 or bigger. Low strength (purple) for any fastener M4 or smaller. I have never had to use Permanent strength (red) that requires you melt the bond before unfastening on anything bicycle related. 

Just remember two things:
1.) clean the threads with isopropyl alcohol or acetone before applying thread locker
2.) thread locker cures in the absence of oxygen. So it is best to make sure the thread locking compound is evenly distributed and coating all threads of the bolt you are using.


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

They're for different purposes. Loctite is for improprly designed joints which are prone to loosening because of loss of clampload. Anti-seize is for joints which do not self-loosen, but where galling or seizure is likely.

Personally, I'd install with lubricant (grease) and watch it for loosening. If the fastener wants to loosen over time, pull it out, clean it up well, Loctite it and re-install.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

steadite said:


> They're for different purposes. Loctite is for improprly designed joints which are prone to loosening because of loss of clampload. Anti-seize is for joints which do not self-loosen, but where galling or seizure is likely.


I could not disagree more. Loctite or any thread locking compound is a secondary safety measure against loss of tension between a bolted joint. Just like how you can use safety wire, ny-lock, split washers, star flanged washers etc, deformed flange to recess... They are all used as a backup.

Thread locking compound is widely used in all industries from industrial plants to aerospace and military applications.

There are 3 main causes for fasteners to lose tension.

1.) When two clamped surfaces shift
2.) When parts bend causing the head and threads to slip
3.) thermal effects

Thread locking compound should never be used to compensate for a poorly designed assembly. Thread locking is to ensure the bolt will not come out under normal operating conditions. A poorly design joint is a poorly designed joint that thread locking compounds will never solve adequately.

When proper torque is applied to a fastener with the application of thread locking compound you give yourself extra safety and reliability of a fastener backing out.

Typically you use anti-seize for high torque large thread sizes between two dissimilar metals under large temperate deltas. In bicycle applications we apply it to fasteners (Titanium going into tapped aluminum holes) to prevent galvanic corrosion.


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## Zstrange (Jun 26, 2009)

Yeah, what cheers said

Typically you use anti-seize for high torque large thread sizes between two dissimilar metals under large temperate deltas. In bicycle applications we apply it to fasteners (Titanium going into tapped aluminum holes) to prevent galvanic corrosion.

Loctite works very well for this too
we use it on road racing motorcycles all the time. Usually brake disc bolts and 
sprocket bolts... Use anti seize for nearlly all other ti bolts... Neither seizes if 
correct torque is applied


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

so which should i be using when installing pedals likeTHIS?

It will be going into a Shimano Deore Crankarm, which i presume is Aluminum

Do i need anti-seize or locktite? Or can i use regular grease?


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

Anti-seize.


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

Cheers! said:


> I could not disagree more. Loctite or any thread locking compound is a secondary safety measure against loss of tension between a bolted joint. Just like how you can use safety wire, ny-lock, split washers, star flanged washers etc, deformed flange to recess... They are all used as a backup.


You disagree that thread locking compound and anti-seize are for different purposes?!?!? hmmmm....

Those examples you gave are ALL crutches for improperly designed joints. If the bolted joint is designed and assembled correctly, none of these things are necessary. When was the last time you saw a lock washer (or locking compound etc.) on a connecting rod or cylinder head bolt???...answer: you won't.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

steadite said:


> You disagree that thread locking compound and anti-seize are for different purposes?!?!? hmmmm....
> 
> Those examples you gave are ALL crutches for improperly designed joints. If the bolted joint is designed and assembled correctly, none of these things are necessary. When was the last time you saw a lock washer (or locking compound etc.) on a connecting rod or cylinder head bolt???...answer: you won't.


Because a bolt that holds the connecting rod to cradle that clamps onto the crankshaft is not a safety critical application. Bolt fails. Engine stops.

The point of thread locking or any other forms of fastener locking wire is to increase the safety margin when you experience an event that was not expected. No engineer worth his degree would ever rely on a thread locking feature as his primary method of holding tension preload on a fastener.

But I guess you are right. I'll let brief the guys at Boeing tomorrow at work that we don't need to use any secondary locking features on any safety critical part of any aircraft from now on.


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## IPA Rider (Aug 24, 2008)

*washers*

Hijack, while we've got engineers' attention...

can you all tell me when and if I need to use washers on my bike bolts (and why)?


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

Cheers! said:


> I'll let brief the guys at Boeing tomorrow at work that we don't need to use any secondary locking features on any safety critical part of any aircraft from now on.


oooohhhh...he works for Boeing!!! Queue the applause and genuflecting...

I don't understand the point you're trying to make (other than informing everyone of your vaunted employment status). I said that "anti-seize and thread locking compound are for different purposes"; you said you "couldn't disagree more" with this statement. Is that true?

BTW...nice job getting that plastic plane designed on time! (sorry, had to take the cheap shot)


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

IPA Rider said:


> can you all tell me when and if I need to use washers on my bike bolts (and why)?


The main purpose of washers is to prevent "embedment" of the screw head into the surface it's clamping. So if the bolt head is clamping on Al or composite, probably best to have a washer because it spreads out the force better.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

steadite said:


> You disagree that thread locking compound and anti-seize are for different purposes?!?!? hmmmm....
> .


He disagreed with your inane statement that loctite is needed for only "improperly designed" joints. Which is a grade A baloney.


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

Curmy said:


> He disagreed with your inane statement that loctite is needed for only "improperly designed" joints. Which is a grade A baloney.


Nope, Loctite is a crutch.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

steadite said:


> Nope, Loctite is a crutch.




Just like Cheers I will make sure to report this pearl of wisdom to AA engineers I used to work with.

...waiting for your further condescending chest beating on how their expertise is irrelevant and shall not be mentioned.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

steadite said:


> Nope, Loctite is a crutch.


:lol:

Wow, that is amazingly foolish.

And to the original purpose of the thread. I often use loctite when I am worried about threads seizing it works just fine.


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

I don't disagree there are places on a bike where Loctite is useful (stem screws and disk screws for example), but it's because those are badly designed joints which do not create sufficient elongation in the fastener to keep it tight. That's the only point I'm trying to make.


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

FWIW, Cheers has it right! I have a material and adhesives engineering background with many (too many) years of experience in the field. 

Now, personally for almost all bike related applications, the low strength product (purps) is likely all you would need, that is if you ever want to take it apart w/o damage! :eekster:


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

so... for TI Pedals + Alu Crankarm, use Loctite or Anti Seize or Regular Grease?

guessing.. Anti Seize by Park Tool?


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

email reply from Wellgo:



> Hello, I've just purchased one of your Wellgo MG-1 Titanium (spindle) Pedals. I am wondering what i need to apply to the threads when screwing it into my Aluminum crankarm. Do I need grease, anti-seize, or locktite to make sure the pedal can be removed in the future and doesn't get stuck there? Thank you





> Hello there,
> 
> thanks a lot for the message....
> 
> ...


it was from a chick, so i'm not sure she knows anything


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## Jake Pay (Dec 27, 2006)

Put some grease on the damn things and go ride


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

copper or silver anti-seize?

Tim


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

louisssss said:


> so... for TI Pedals + Alu Crankarm, use Loctite or Anti Seize or Regular Grease?
> 
> guessing.. Anti Seize by Park Tool?


With dissimilar metals that you want to remove with some frequency, I always use anti-seize, and especially with aluminum. 
You kinda have decide how critical it is (if it comes loose) as to choosing a locking compound vs. antiseize vs. grease.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

If you use a low strength locking compound it isn't hard at all to get off anyway though. So it isn't doing much locking, and is doing a lot more anti seizing really by keeping a layer between the dissimilar metals. (I don't think blue loc tite is that hard to get off either to be honest though I don't use it all the time either)


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

TimT said:


> copper or silver anti-seize?
> 
> Tim


this is the anti seized that i ordered specifically for the pedal install:
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/CM402F00-Park+Asc-1+Anti-Seize+Compound.aspx


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