# 9.75" travel mod......bye, bye warranty!



## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

I expect to get flamed , but let me tell you what I did with my bike......
It's a 2004 Diamond back XTS moto. It is a strong 10 1/2 lb frame (I think) with a tall 6"reinforced headtube. The only thing that I can't easily change is the stiffness of the tail, and it will never be as stiff as say the El Cuervo, but I don't race. It is adequately stiff. I put an 06 200mm 888 on it which added and inch of travel and a higher front end. The head tube can handle it. The stock rear, has 6.5 inches of travel. Not a good match with the 888. I wanted 8 - 9.5" of rear travel. Easy. Pulled the wimpy 2" stroke fox vanilla RC. Got my huge old Risse jupiter 5 3" stroke shock sitting around so I figure I'll put it to use. No linkage modifications here..... After pulling the stock shock, I measured the available free travel of the rear from full extension to full collapse until the tire contacts the front derailure tube. It's alittle over 9" of vertical travel with a 26" 2.5 tire. With a 24" rear tire It could be close to 10" of rear travel. Anyway, with the 2" stroke shock I had 6.5" of travel, thats 3.25" of travel per inch of shock stroke or a 3.25:1 ratio. Keeping the stock shock position and just adding the longer stroke Risse adds another inch of stroke and another 3.25" of travel, for a total of 9.75" of rear travel. Thats too much for the 26" tire, but great for when I run a set of 24's. The rear link has a second hole to drop the travel from 6.5 to 5.7 " so that would give me 8.55" at this setting with the Risse shock, a good match for the 888 and 26" wheels. I'll need a 450lb spring. One small detail is that the Risse shock doesn't fit, its' too long. Easy fix. I cut the old shock mounting hole tabs off the frame ( being careful not to cut too fast so the aluminum doesn't heat up and ruin it's heat treat) and then re-drilled new holes in the frame about an inch back. Now the shock fits perfect. Bye , Bye warranty. Who cares. It's a DiamondBack not a $2000 frame. The head tube angle is 67 degrees, and the BB height is 14.75 inches with 8.5 inches travel and 15 inches with 9.75" travel and 24" tires. That's the unweighted geometry. With me on it it will have about a 66-65 deg ht angle and 12-12.5" BB height. It's not done yet as I still have to build a 20mm hub front wheel and get brake cables. I'll take pics when It's done and post the results of how it rides. In the end it's still a DiamondBack, but it's the rider not the bike , as long as the bike can handle the rider.


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## coma13 (Sep 3, 2005)

Have fun breaking that......... Just because it's heavy, it doesn't mean the frame is strong... just made of heavy metal.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

i can't wait to see this deathtrap.....


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

Okay..... are you experienced with the frame? Do you know what you are talking about? Give me some specs or specifics. "Strong" is a subjective word. It can handle it. Just because it's not a $2000 namebrand frame does not mean it sucks. Heavy Metal????? It's aluminum. 7005 jet quenched and cold worked. I might worry if I was dropping 30 foot drops. I don't. You need to worry about big drops on any bike. For general all around aggressive Freeride/DH riding this frame is plenty strong. I have assesed the structure of the frame and it will hold up fine. I'm sure it would be a death trap for you Mr. westcoasthucker. Any bike is a death trap for you. Give a hucker a stronger bike and he makes it weaker by going of bigger drops. It's all subjective.


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

Yes, bring on the pics.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

coma13 said:


> Just because it's heavy, it doesn't mean the frame is strong.


 Just because you have 1300 posts under your name doesn't mean you know what your talking about.


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## coma13 (Sep 3, 2005)

N8R said:


> Just because you have 1300 post under your name doesn't mean you know what your talking about.


Whatever you say buddy! Have fun with that!


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## free-rider_down-hiller (Jun 1, 2005)

I dont care if it breaks first time you ride it i just wanna see some pics!


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## mtb_biker (Jan 27, 2004)

I don't think it has anything to do with being 2k or even 3k. If you started drilling new shock mounting holes in any bike regardless of price i think you'd get the same response.


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## MT Road (Sep 26, 2004)

This I gotta See.... a deathtrap is spot on...


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## X-Vert (Jan 22, 2004)

I appreciate the thought and the ingenuity you put into it. Just don't push it too far cuz it will fail. That alone would be a buzz kill for me while riding. 

There is no pricetag on "piece of mind". Send pics soon!


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

do you have any idea if your new mount holes have altered the suspension rate curve?


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## coma13 (Sep 3, 2005)

I'm at the point where I just want to see this contraption... Post some pics d00d!


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## Roaming Oregon (Feb 24, 2004)

N8R said:


> Okay..... are you experienced with the frame? Do you know what you are talking about? Give me some specs or specifics. "Strong" is a subjective word. It can handle it. Just because it's not a $2000 namebrand frame does not mean it sucks. Heavy Metal????? It's aluminum. 7005 jet quenched and cold worked. I might worry if I was dropping 30 foot drops. I don't. You need to worry about big drops on any bike. For general all around aggressive Freeride/DH riding this frame is plenty strong. I have assesed the structure of the frame and it will hold up fine. I'm sure it would be a death trap for you Mr. westcoasthucker. Any bike is a death trap for you. Give a hucker a stronger bike and he makes it weaker by going of bigger drops. It's all subjective.


I want photos too... How did your BB height change? Standover? Head angle? Seat angle?


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Another call for the pics. Specifically you riding the beast at speed through some challenging terrain. I volunteer the first $5 for your medical bills......


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

coma13 said:


> Whatever you say buddy! Have fun with that!


I'm not trying be controversial, just making what I have better until I build myself a better frame. By my statement above, I'm not implying that you do or do not know your stuff because of your number of posts. I have not read all your posts. No one can know that without reading all of your posts. I was using your thinking to demonstrate a point. You cannot know the strength of my XTS frame just by pre-conceived notions of what you think of Diamondback. That is why I asked what you know about the frame. I was saying that don't automatically assume something, first gather the facts and info applicable. I'll keep this thread updated with my results and, if it is a death trap and breaks on the first ride I will be honest and report that to you. It seems like people, in general, just assume that the more travel a bike has, then the stronger it has to be. Wrong! The amount of travel has little to do with how heavy or strong the frame needs to be. What determines how strong the frame needs to be is the type of use and stress itwill see, and the spring rate and leverage ratios of the suspension. I have in no way weakened my frame by increasing the rear travel. Just the opposite. By increasing the amount of travel and using a softer spring rate and lowering my leverage ratios, the frame will see less stress than the stock shock. More proper travel means more force absorption. The only increase in stress on my bike's new setup is the extra inch of travel from leverage on the head tube from the 888, seeing as this bike came spec. with a 7" Junior T. With an 05 drop crown 888, I would need to be more careful, But with the lower 06 fork it will be more stressed than stock, but well within safety limits for the riding I do.


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## switch55 (Feb 17, 2006)

Maybe he just wants to meet some hot nurses @ the hospital. But seriously we need some pics.


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## mothahucker (Feb 6, 2006)

I think this is a pretty sweet idea. All I can say is that I hope you did your homework on this and haven't screwed with any supports or other important stuff that'll make the bike fail. I think its pretty cool to see a rider taking risks like that and putting your own ingenuity into your own bike. :thumbsup: good luck with it.


On a side note, I'm sure theres tons of jokes to be made about a guy with the screen name "N8R" (nader) building a "deathtrap", when Ralph NADER wrote books about the chevy corvair being a deathtrap...


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

Roaming Oregon said:


> I want photos too... How did your BB height change? Standover? Head angle? Seat angle?


The BB height, head tube and seat angles changed with the increased height of the 888. It raised the BB a little less than a half inch. I'm not sure what the stock HT and seat tube angles were. I just tryed to get the geometry close to a good DH setup. Seat tube angle doesn't matter as long as there is enough adjustment in the seatpost to get it how you like it and there is. Standover height was raised about a half inch or so, same as the BB. I'm 6'4" so standover for me is not a concern. I'm going to wait til the bike is all together before I post pics, in a few days.


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## Evel Knievel (Mar 28, 2004)

First of all , modifying a bikes suspension is punk .

Did you have the option of swapping rocker plates , or drilling the cast aluminum plates ?


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## coma13 (Sep 3, 2005)

N8R said:


> I was saying that don't automatically assume something, first gather the facts and info applicable.


I don't recall ever saying that your frame was particularly weak. It was just a comment in reference to your linking assertation of the strenght/weight of your frame in the first post. Also, barring the extensive prototype stress and fatigue testing that I'm sure you have done, you're assuming quite a lot by making a modification of that magnitude to your bike.

But that's that... just post some pictures!


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

mtb_biker said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with being 2k or even 3k. If you started drilling new shock mounting holes in any bike regardless of price i think you'd get the same response.


Whats wrong with drilling holes in a frame if you know what you are doing? They had to drill holes in the frame in the factory didn't they? I'm not some experimenter "seeing what'll happen if I try this". All I'm doing is making an okay design better and more useful within reasonable measures for the given situation. Eventually I will be building my own frame. I don't profess to know everything about engineering, but I know enough to build a strong safe bike.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

coma13 said:


> I don't recall ever saying that your frame was particularly weak. It was just a comment in reference to your linking assertation of the strenght/weight of your frame in the first post. Also, barring the extensive prototype stress and fatigue testing that I'm sure you have done, you're assuming quite a lot by making a modification of that magnitude to your bike.
> 
> But that's that... just post some pictures!


Your right, Sorry for being incomplete in my description of the frame. I am not however assuming anything really, and I am not making extensive modifications to the bike. Well, maybe it would be extensive to someone who know's little about leverage, stresses, etc. It's very simple what I'm doing. Diamond Back has already done all the fatigue testing and whatnot for this bike. All the reviews I've read of people that own this frame say it holds up well to Agressive Freeriding/DH. All I have done is increase the travel of the bike. The bike is just as strong as it was before I modded anything, ( other than the increased headtube leverage which is still with in safe limits) and I will not be doing any more extreme riding than I would have on the stock bike. I understand all the skeptisism and responses however. The unknown invokes worry and doubt.


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

God damn if I don't see pics of this thing by the end of the day I'm going to **** myself, close the shop down early, and head home so I can change my pants.


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## Evel Knievel (Mar 28, 2004)

*Settle down*



ScaryJerry said:


> God damn if I don't see pics of this thing by the end of the day I'm going to **** myself, close the shop down early, and head home so I can change my pants.


 Here is a unmodified version.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> do you have any idea if your new mount holes have altered the suspension rate curve?


 Yes I do know, and they have not altered the curve. I'm not proffesing this to be the ultimate spot on suspension rate. All I have done is take what I have and made it better. I can't afford what I would like to have, so I'm working with what I have for now. The rear link angle in relation to the swing arm and frame has not been changed. The new shock has been mounted at the same angle as the stock shock. The only difference is that the new shock has an extra inch of stroke and is 1" longer eye-to-eye. Thus I had to cut off the existing mount tab and drill new holes 1" back to accomodate the new longer shock. I liked the feel of the stock suspension rate. This will be the same until the last 1" of stroke which will be fine. I haven't mapped the rates of the last inch yet, but it will be fine for now. There is plenty of room to drill additional holes if I come up with a more optimal spring rate than the stock one. If you compare the older 04 XTS frame that I have with the new 06 models, you will see that the older frames shock mount is overkill and it is a big piece of solid 1/4 inch aluminum, and on the new ones they removed a bunch of material from that location. Drilling holes is no safety concern as long as it is done slowly so the metal is not heated too much.
Here is the 04 model:
https://www.bikesdetails.info/bikes/img/451-large.jpg

here is the 06 model:
https://www.syracusebicycle.com/Products/Diamondback/Freeride_Downhill/XTS_Moto.jpg


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

X-Vert said:


> I appreciate the thought and the ingenuity you put into it. Just don't push it too far cuz it will fail.


 Agreed!! if you push any bike too far it will fail. You have to know what your bike is and is not capable of.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

006_007 said:


> Another call for the pics. Specifically you riding the beast at speed through some challenging terrain. I volunteer the first $5 for your medical bills......


I'm going to hold you to that!!!


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## milhouse (Jun 22, 2004)

My buddy has one of those. I want to see some photos too. All I have to say is when you take a frame that was built with 6.5" of travel and modify it by cutting of the mount tabs and re-drilling the frame and putting a much longer stoke shock, it is no longer within the limits that Diamond back tested the frame. Sure, you may not be using it to its very limits, but if that’s the case you don’t need more travel. A better shock, spring or tuning would have been a better option.


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## mtb_biker (Jan 27, 2004)

You definitly could make some $ on this endevour. People will pay if you go big.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

There you go. I'll post some pic's once I get the bike together. Patience please. For some reason the posted pics shock mount looks thinner than mine. I think mine must be an 03 frame not an 04. In the above pic of the 04, it looks like if you were to move the hole an inch back, it would be too close to the end of the mount and potentially cause failure. On mine there is more room, and its wider. How do I upload a picture?


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## mtb_biker (Jan 27, 2004)

imgshost.com , or if the picture is small enoguh you can upload it if you click go advanced at the bottom and attach it.


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## milhouse (Jun 22, 2004)

N8R said:


> There you go. I'll post some pic's once I get the bike together. Patience please. For some reason the posted pics shock mount looks thinner than mine. I think mine must be an 03 frame not an 04. In the above pic of the 04, it looks like if you were to move the hole an inch back, it would be too close to the end of the mount and potentially cause failure. On mine there is more room, and its wider. How do I upload a picture?


one above looks like the XC frame.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

Evel Knievel said:


> First of all , modifying a bikes suspension is punk .
> 
> Did you have the option of swapping rocker plates , or drilling the cast aluminum plates ?


Punk? Why? The way I did it I think is the easiest best solution, as long as voiding the warranty is not a concern. This would not be a good mod for someone who values their frame warranty. I personally don't need the warranty. By the time this bike needs it I will be making my own frames. You definately don't want to drill cast aluminum, it's weaker than machined aluminum. The only option would be to machine new plates and make them heavier and longer to increase the travel. This is a bad Idea. Longer link= more side to side leverage= more tail flex, unless you widen the pivot. These are too much work for the inherent design of this frame. The reason I did this is I already had the shock. I saw that I could get it on there by only cutting off a small tab and drilling new holes. It dosn't get any easier than that.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

N8R said:


> Punk? Why? ....


punk like punk rock (aka-hardcore)


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

milhouse said:


> My buddy has one of those. I want to see some photos too. All I have to say is when you take a frame that was built with 6.5" of travel and modify it by cutting of the mount tabs and re-drilling the frame and putting a much longer stoke shock, it is no longer within the limits that Diamond back tested the frame. Sure, you may not be using it to its very limits, but if that's the case you don't need more travel. A better shock, spring or tuning would have been a better option.


Sorry to sound harsh, but you are wrong. The spot where I cut and drilled holes is built "way over kill" from the factory. They are 1/4" thick huge plates. Look at the links above in my post at how they lightened this area up on the 06 models. As long as you don't heat up the aluminum too much, you can cut and drill without compromising anything. From where I drilled the new holes there is still a whole inch of 1/4 thick material after it which is still more than necessary. The shock bolt will break before the new mount holes do.The bike is still well within the limits that the bike was designed for, and the longer stroke shock actually is easier on the frame, give identical loads because I will be slightly lowering the leverage ratio. With the extra stroke you decrease the spring rate to be able to travel further through the avilable stroke. Intead of a 700lb spring now it will have a 450lb spring. The extra travel just means that someone might be tempted to do bigger drops cause now they have more suspension which will break the frame sooner. Would you rather ride slowly down a bumpy trail on a bike with 9" of travel or one with 5"? I would rather be on a plush comfortable 9". I don't care about pedal bobbing seeing as I don't climb. To me more travel is better up till the point geometry and bike height become a problem which seems to be around the 9-10" mark.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> punk like punk rock (aka-hardcore)


Ahh, I get it. I must be old. I always heard punk used to say somthing is messed up or retarded, like a punk kid.


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## mtb_biker (Jan 27, 2004)

hopefully you can talk your way into heaven this easily :thumbsup:


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## austinb89 (Nov 6, 2004)

you know my freind did something liek this with his old norco. he had i think 5.5 or 6 inches in the rear and brought it to 7" he ended up ripping the shock apart in the rear. the shock literally pulled itself apart. we figured this out when we tried to change the spring to something lighter. good luck man, post pics when the bike implodes on itself haha


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

why do I get the feeling of de ja vu right about now... something about putting a huge DC fork on a Davinci...


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

Here are some pics I found before I cut and drilled the frame. You can see how beefy the mounts are. After moving the hole up and forward and inch it is still overkill. The shock bolt will break way before the mount ever would. I'll take more pics and post the finnished result when the bike is put together in a few days.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

mtb_biker said:


> imgshost.com , or if the picture is small enoguh you can upload it if you click go advanced at the bottom and attach it.


Thanks.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Diamondback makes an okay frame despite the bad rep. Modifying it so extensively puts a lot more stress on the frame in ways that it wasn't designed. Changing the shock mount location could potentially alter the leverage ratio.

If you want to make it stiffer, drop in some needle bearings at those pivots and convert the rear to a bolt-on.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

mtb_biker said:


> You definitly could make some $ on this endevour. People will pay if you go big.


 I don't go too big. I don't want to die, just ride within reasonability ( is that a word?) 
However, I have been off my mountainbike for over a year because I took up motocross, but I decided to hang that up and go back to mountainbiking, as I'm too reckless on dirtbikes and the stakes and speeds are too high. I figure at least on a mountain bike I'll be going slower. I definately won't try and do the stuff I did on my dirtbike on my Diamondback, like this picture:


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

austinb89 said:


> you know my freind did something liek this with his old norco. he had i think 5.5 or 6 inches in the rear and brought it to 7" he ended up ripping the shock apart in the rear. the shock literally pulled itself apart. we figured this out when we tried to change the spring to something lighter. good luck man, post pics when the bike implodes on itself haha


I bet he did this using the same shock, right? Thats was his problem. He overleveraged the shock and destroyed it. His stock shock was probably leveraged around a 3:1 ratio which is common, so he probably had a 1.75-2 inch stroke shock. Take that same shock up to 7" of travel and you now have a 4:1 ratio which will definately overleverage and destroy a shock. What I am doing is completely different. I'm not using the stock shock. I am using a longer 3" stroke shock at a 3:1 ratio for which it was designed. This shock will be fine. In this kind of thing you just have to know what your doing and where forces and stresses are going to be and make sure your parts match the application.


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## el_chupo_ (Nov 15, 2005)

N8R: you keep talking about knowing what you are doing. It looks like a well though out project, but Ihave to ask, what are your qualifactions to do this. Do you have a degree in mechanical engineering or somehting? this is pretty heavy for an average joe, even a smart one. 

Good luck on it, and keep us posted

Matt


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

your not very smart are you!

you like messed up geo, and steep angles with a high bb :thumbsup:


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## Red Bull (Aug 27, 2004)

you are retarted.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

XSL_WiLL said:


> Diamondback makes an okay frame despite the bad rep. Modifying it so extensively puts a lot more stress on the frame in ways that it wasn't designed. Changing the shock mount location could potentially alter the leverage ratio.
> 
> If you want to make it stiffer, drop in some needle bearings at those pivots and convert the rear to a bolt-on.


I know this mod may seem extensive but it really isn't. The change I made in the shock mounting is only to accomodate the longer stroke shock. The leverage ratio and suspension rate will be less than what it was stock. If I were to try to get 9" of travel using the stock 2" stroke vanilla rc, then yes, I would have a problem. The way I am doing it, the frame is under no increase of load or stress. The only thing that will increase the load and stress is bigger jumps and drops. The XTS is designed around a 7" fork. The 888 I'm using is 1" longer than what the bike comes fitted with. however, I have compared the Diamondbacks headtube gussets and design with bikes that come with 8" travel forks. It looks to me as strong. Plus it is quite a bit longer than most DH/freeride bikes headtubes. The taller the head tube the stronger it is, given identical tube thickness and construction. If diamondback puts a 7" fork on it's bike, they have to design the bike's failure point to be well beyond normal use conditions for safety. A 1 inch taller fork increases the leverage on the head tube by 4.5% . Thats not a whole lot of extra force to really worry about, unless your riding at the last 4% of the yield strength of the head tube, which I don't plan to do. It would be interesting to calculate the size of drop and force it puts on the fork to know how tall of a drop would take you to the 80-90% yield point of the fork. But I would be more concerned with fatigue over time. So putting a 1" longer fork on this frame will take me 4.5% closer to the failure point of the headtube, but still well within safe normal operating limits as long as I don't get too crazy. I just have to be a little more cautious on big drops.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

i'm almost starting to believe you.....


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## coma13 (Sep 3, 2005)

Red Bull said:


> you are retarted.


You spelled "retarded" wrong... retard...


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

vpjackal989 said:


> your not very smart are you!
> 
> you like messed up geo, and steep angles with a high bb :thumbsup:


Thats not a very nice thing to say! I guess you must have some one that works on your bike for you and tells you what works and what doesn't rather than learning for your self. I guess we need to tell the guys over at GO-RIDE and ventana to fix the El Cuervo then, seeing as my geometry is almost Identical to it, with the exception of a slightly steeper 67 deg. Ht angle. For my tastes, 66 is too slack. However, if I later decide I want it at 66 degrees and have a slightly lower BB, then All I have to do is drill two more little holes further up in the mount and drop the rear end without loosing travel. The trade off is that my pedals will be closer to the ground at bottom out or any given time. There is lots of room to to tweak the geometry if I need to. Geometry is relative to what type of riding you are doing.


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## Red Bull (Aug 27, 2004)

coma13 said:


> You spelled "retarded" wrong... retard...


:thumbsup:

maybe i cant spell but atleast i dont drill holes in my frame and have false reasoning why it wont break


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## Evel Knievel (Mar 28, 2004)

N8R said:


> Ahh, I get it. I must be old. I always heard punk used to say somthing is messed up or retarded, like a punk kid.


 Punk like , punk music . Outside the norm and hardcore , individual style not conforming .

Not retarded just because , unless its deadmilkmen or blink182 punk .


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

el_chupo_ said:


> N8R: you keep talking about knowing what you are doing. It looks like a well though out project, but Ihave to ask, what are your qualifactions to do this. Do you have a degree in mechanical engineering or somehting? this is pretty heavy for an average joe, even a smart one.
> 
> Good luck on it, and keep us posted
> 
> Matt


Well, I'm defintely not an engineer. And I'm definatley not an average Joe. I would say I'm somewhere between a smart average Joe and and engineer' but closer to the Joe side, though others might think otherwise. I have several engineer friends and worked on projects with them, and this with much research and hands on building stuff my whole life has given me a good idea as what works and what doesn't, and where forces are on things, etc. The key is just understanding how the system works and knowing what it is you are changing. Of course there is always trial and error that goes along with it. I'm really not altering the bike as extensively as people seem to think. When I look at this kind of stuff it's seems pretty simple. I've been to interbike and talked with several manufacturers. You would be suprised how many people are designing and making your aftermarket bike frames and parts that have no engineering qualifications other than a good head on their shoulders.


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## coma13 (Sep 3, 2005)

Red Bull said:


> i dont drill holes in my frame


I don't believe you!!!!!


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

Red Bull said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> maybe i cant spell but atleast i dont drill holes in my frame and have false reasoning why it wont break


 I guess maybe you can enlighten me to where it will break? Where have I errored?If you understood my explanations and reasoning and the calculations involved, you would understand that it is not false reasoning but actually calculated measurements , and would avoid saying things like you said above. Anyway, enough theoretical trying to explain what I'm doing. I'll finnish the bike and post the results and pics later.


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## coma13 (Sep 3, 2005)

N8R said:


> I guess maybe you can enlighten me to where it will break? Where have I errored?If you understood my explanations and reasoning and the calculations involved, you would understand that it is not false reasoning but actually calculated measurements , and would avoid saying things like you said above. Anyway, enough theoretical trying to explain what I'm doing. I'll finnish the bike and post the results and pics later.


It has to do with the inner Chi of the bike.... It's going to burst into a ball of fire the next time you huck it off a planter box onto the sidewalk.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

coma13 said:


> It has to do with the inner Chi of the bike.... It's going to burst into a ball of fire the next time you huck it off a planter box onto the sidewalk.


Haha!


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## hardcore newbie (Nov 6, 2004)

stick to pinkbike


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## japollner (May 8, 2006)

im not saying anything about your particular job until I see this, but having some expreience in aluminum fabrication in off road truck applications...it sounds like it could almost work IF it was done right...


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

This post is 6 hours old & your talking 2 days, clock is ticking :ihih::ihih::ihih::crazy:


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## DMay (Jan 9, 2004)

Good for you for trying something on your own,I can see that you'd take responsibilty for your own actions,Just remember to do "field trials"before hammering it hard.Take it on progressively more aggressive tests inspecting it thoroughly after each trial.I'd say the most important thing is not to bottom the suspension too hard,as I believe that's when stresses go sky high(but I'm no engineer)The only thing that looks sketchy to me is the shortness of the link,seems like that would spike load the frame where it pivots as the rate changes through the travel,so look at more of the frame than just where you redrilled the shock mount and the headtube area,it may break anywhere from the increased loads. Watch the swingarm too...


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## austinb89 (Nov 6, 2004)

N8R said:


> I bet he did this using the same shock, right? Thats was his problem. He overleveraged the shock and destroyed it. His stock shock was probably leveraged around a 3:1 ratio which is common, so he probably had a 1.75-2 inch stroke shock. Take that same shock up to 7" of travel and you now have a 4:1 ratio which will definately overleverage and destroy a shock. What I am doing is completely different. I'm not using the stock shock. I am using a longer 3" stroke shock at a 3:1 ratio for which it was designed. This shock will be fine. In this kind of thing you just have to know what your doing and where forces and stresses are going to be and make sure your parts match the application.


yeah thats exactly what he did hahha. im not critizing your plan man, im all about getting more travel upgrades if its possible. but with in REASON OF COURSE. im just looking out for you man makign sure you dont pull your frame apart(looks liek that might happen since you rear linkage doesnt look to bulky) and that you dont have a shock shoot right into your poopa!


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## Amazing Larry104 (Aug 19, 2005)

i think its cool u did that
its cool to test out new ideas


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## finchy (Jan 21, 2004)

high bb, steep Head angle and theose linkages are tiny... i reckon it wont last :nono:


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

austinb89 said:


> yeah thats exactly what he did hahha. im not critizing your plan man, im all about getting more travel upgrades if its possible. but with in REASON OF COURSE. im just looking out for you man makign sure you dont pull your frame apart(looks liek that might happen since you rear linkage doesnt look to bulky) and that you dont have a shock shoot right into your poopa!


Thanks man! Actually the rear linkage doesn't need to be bulky in this design because the leverage ratio and spring rate are being decreased due to the longer stroke shock. Going from a 700 lb spring rate ( which felt too stiff for 6.5 " travel to me to begin with) to a 450 lb spring rate gives much lower initial force and stress on the frame and shock because it's now 450 lbs instead of 700 lbs of resistance. As you progress through the travel and compress the coil the force and spring rate ramps up somewhat, but the 450 lb spring will never ramp up to a higher springrate than what the 700 lb one would fully compressed. Now if I was lengthening the linkage and keeping the same spring rate to increase my travel, then I would need to beefen up or replace the linkage because the leverage and force being applied to the frame and link would be higher than stock.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

finchy said:


> high bb, steep Head angle and theose linkages are tiny... i reckon it wont last :nono:


Again...... Why do people keep saying this is a high bottom bracket & steep HT angle? The bottom bracket height and ht angle is UNCOMPRESSED AND WITHOUT SAG. Once I am on the bike, the bottom bracket will drop to around 12-12.5 inches depending on the sag. Also the headtube angle will slacken probably to 66-65 degrees because more weight is on the rear than on the front on flat ground. Furthermore, the size of the linkage doesn't matter as much as the design and leverage ratio of it. The linkage will be seeing less force and stress with the new longer stroke, under-leveraged shock than it was with the stock shock, so all things on the bike will last as long or longer than it would have stock, given equal riding conditions. Now if I decide to go bigger on it than I would have with 6.5" of travel , I will be placing more stress on the bike, naturally. But I'm not increasing the travel to be able to go bigger. I'm doing it for a better ride, and more fun.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

japollner said:


> im not saying anything about your particular job until I see this, but having some expreience in aluminum fabrication in off road truck applications...it sounds like it could almost work IF it was done right...


Interesting...., thats my other hobby.... off-road trucks. That is where I have learned alot of my fabing skills. Do you build rock crawlers or baja? My current project truck is a 93 toyota that I am building a custom fiberglass body for. I swapped out the crappy 3.0 v6 and put in a turbo Inline 6 motor from a 90 supra. I'm running 12lbs of boost and have around 320hp right now.


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## finchy (Jan 21, 2004)

the 88 is taller then most 8 inh travel froks so really ur usin a fork that is aproxx 2 inchs taller then hwat ur frame was designed for


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

dogonfr said:


> This post is 6 hours old & your talking 2 days, clock is ticking :ihih::ihih::ihih::crazy:


I don't know if i'll have it together in exactly 2 days. I said I would have it together in a few days, I believe. I don't do stuff on Sunday, so I'll try to have it together and post pics early next week, hopefully by Monday. I'm waiting on spokes in the mail to build my front wheel, and, Oh yeah, I forgot about the upper drop crown I'm waiting for, that I need cause my head tube is so tall.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

finchy said:


> the 88 is taller then most 8 inh travel froks so really ur usin a fork that is aproxx 2 inchs taller then hwat ur frame was designed for


No, I'm not using an 05 888 with drop crowns. The junior T that the bike is designed around is 554mm or 22.16 " tall. The 06 888 is 579mm or 23.16" tall. Thats a 1" difference. Plus there is another half inch of adjustment to lower the fork if I really felt I needed to, but I don't. Thats the reason they lowered the crowns in 06. They must have had a ton of complaints about the extra inch of height. What was Marzocchi thinking???


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## Martin.au (Jan 1, 2006)

Well, at the end of the day, it's only a Diamondback. It's not quite the same as modding a Intense or SC frame. Good luck with the trial and work up to the big stuff.


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## DamoNNomaD (Apr 7, 2006)

Looks like great fun. A lot of people need to tuck in their skirts and loosen up on the whiney crying bit.

Stuff, stuffy, stuffers! Go ride you wimpy little pukers! 

Mods rock.

:band:


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## Jekyll_Jockey (Aug 31, 2004)

coma13 said:


> Have fun breaking that......... Just because it's heavy, it doesn't mean the frame is strong... just made of heavy metal.


OK Dude, do you even know what he is talking about? Did you do any research before you flamed this guy? And yes I am a mechanical engineer.

OK the 2004 Diamond back XTS Moto is made of 7005 Aluminum. The reason you make bike frames out of aluminum is because it is relatively strong and light.

OK let's get technical. The yield strength of 7005-T6 AL is 51,000 psi. That means that the material can safely sustain a load of 51,000 psi before it undergoes permanent deformation aka bends or breaks. Just as a comparison 6061-T6 AL (aircraft grade aluminum and the stuff they use on the SC Bullets and many other frames) has a yield strength of 45,000 psi. So the frame is strong and light. It's not like it's made out of steel or lead.

OK is it a good idea to start hacking holes in your frame? Not really, but if N8R is going to do this he should locate the hole in the meaty part of the shock support. This will help to eliminate the stress concentrations that are caused by the hole. I can not give you exact numbers of how this hole will effect the structural integrity of the frame because that is dependant on the exact dimensions of the hole and the size of the supports.

Will it work? It might work out for you N8R, when engineers design things we use what is called a safety factor. For example the most common safety factor for bridges is about 6. So what we do is calculate the maximum load the bridge might have to carry then multiply that load by 6 and design the bridge for that load, therefore everyone is safe and does not die. But we are dealing with a bike not a bridge the safety factor is going to be much less, like maybe around 2 or 3. So N8R, you might be able to get away with the modification if you use some common sense. The modification is going to weaken the frame there are no two ways about that, just how much weaker is the question. The support is probability going to fatigue faster so you are going to want to keep an eye out for any stress cracks or any thing else like that.

SO KEEP AN EYE OUT FOR STRESS CRACKS AND DON'T GO OUT AND BE STUPID LIKE DO A 20 FOOT DROP THE FIRST RIDE. Take baby steps with her just work up to full on ridding.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

N8R said:


> I don't know if i'll have it together in exactly 2 days. I said I would have it together in a few days, I believe. I don't do stuff on Sunday, so I'll try to have it together and post pics early next week, hopefully by Monday. I'm waiting on spokes in the mail to build my front wheel, and, Oh yeah, I forgot about the upper drop crown I'm waiting for, that I need cause my head tube is so tall.


It takes me longer than most to add 2+1. Creativity is cool i just want to see your creation!


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## HOFFMAN223 (Aug 24, 2004)

Has everyone forgotten how the mountain bike has evolved into what it is today? I am not saying N8R is inventing something new, in fact what I am saying is the route that he has taken is a route taken a million times before. Garage experimentation and home modification. How do you think FTW, Jeff Steber, Roskopp's designers, the Canfield boys and many others have gotten to where they are today? Trial and error, a tweak here, a "new hole" there, whatever it took. Before the mountain bike was so HUGE that money for CAD applications, engineers, multiple prototypes etc. came into play, brave souls with a desire to modify and improve existing designs did much the same thing. Basically, if N8R takes his time, dons the appropriate safety gear, starts small and works his way up, just like any semi-intelligent frame designer in the past has done, he should be OK and if he experiences any catastrophic failures in doing so, he is smart enough to take responsibility for such failures, there is nothing wrong with what he is doing. 

And one last point that has bothered me for quite some time now.....I find it irritating yet humorous at the same time that many individuals on this board have the "brains" to criticize someone else, but cannot spell to save their lives. WTF! I may take a poll one day just to see how many 1st. graders actually respond to some of these threads, because, shouldn't that be about the only period in one's life where spelling is still a "challenge".

Don't get me wrong, I am not hating on anyone, I am just sick of all of the soap-box preaching. Let 'er rip N8R!


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## moshelove (Jun 8, 2005)

Honestly I don't think you really know what is going to happen to your frame, regardless of how confident you might be. I think it is awsome though that you are going for it. I would take peoples advice and ride that thing calmly for the first few miles before you open her up. AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, JUST GO BUILD IT AND PUT UP SOME ACTION PICS!!


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

Jekyll_Jockey said:


> OK Dude, do you even know what he is talking about? Did you do any research before you flamed this guy? And yes I am a mechanical engineer.
> 
> OK the 2004 Diamond back XTS Moto is made of 7005 Aluminum. The reason you make bike frames out of aluminum is because it is relatively strong and light.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input. I agree with you that where I drilled the hole is weaker than before I drilled it, but I don't think it is a concern at all because it is about like 5 times stronger than it needs to be even after it was drilled and the new hole is not going to be really changing the load and stress to the adjoining tubes as the plates distribute this load. That 1/4" plate is not going to fatigue within the lifetime of the frame. The shock bolts will break and keep breaking long before the mount does. Look at the mount in this picture: It is 1/4" thick solid plate. The way they built this is Way overkill. There is excess of material there that doesn't need to be there. It's actually a bad design because think off all that material they could have used to strengthen other areas of the bike. They realized this in later models and redesigned it with less material there. I don't think that there is any need to worry about anything more than I would with the bike as it was stock. But it never hurts to inspect things and be careful and I definately will get a feel for the bike before I get crazy, if I even ever get too crazy at all.


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## themarsvolta55 (Dec 23, 2004)

i think its coo to test thigns out too
you should of mod'd your frame so its got a slacker HA and a lower bb. thats whati did on my sgs and it feels so much better downhill and in corners. 

more travel isent ness. better!!!!!!!


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## scabrider (Oct 3, 2004)

the bike was built how it was built for a reson. if you change how it is put together, you're gonna change how it works. DB has guys that spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week designing bikes. I'm pretty sure they designed that one to have that size shock and the mount holes in that place. but if you feel you know more than they do about building and modifying frames, then go ahead and do what you're gonna do...


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## W7_311 (Jul 18, 2005)

If you don't go huge or ride nasty dh, then why do you need over 8'' of front and rear travel? 6.5'' of travel is more than enough for most everything. Good luck with that setup, it looks scary, but only time will tell.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

scabrider said:


> the bike was built how it was built for a reson. if you change how it is put together, you're gonna change how it works. DB has guys that spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week designing bikes. I'm pretty sure they designed that one to have that size shock and the mount holes in that place. but if you feel you know more than they do about building and modifying frames, then go ahead and do what you're gonna do...


It's this type of thinking that allows corporate giants like microsoft and big companies to control markets. People are scared to question what the "professionals" or big companies are doing and they just accept whatever products they are given. You show me any product in the world, and I will show you something wrong with it or how it could be better. This doesn't mean that I have the capacity to make it better than the manufacturer, but I can always see how something could be better. No product is perfect. This is what creates competition and drives markets, and why each year there is interbike and new improved, lighter stronger, better products ( hopefully). I AM changing how the bike works and I AM questioning DB's engineers design. Not that it is sucky, but that it can be improved upon, and it is in fact worth the effort to do so seeing how easy it is. I don't think I know more than DB's engineer's do, but I know enough to improve upon their design for my needs. Yes it was designed for a certain size shock, just like automobiles are designed with certain size shocks or parts. How many "proffesional" people do you see rejecting stock auto parts and upgrading them or modding them with better high performance parts in racing? If you know what you are doing, you can safely and succesfully improve upon other peoples designs. Another example: Why did GO-RIDE critisize marzocchi's 04-05 888 fork crowns and design their own? Same reason. The design could be improved upon and it was worth while doing so. Do the guy's over at Go-RIDE know more than Marzocchi's engineers? Probably not, but they knew enough to see a mistake on marzocchi's part and fix it. Sometimes, however, it is better to just start from scratch rather than to try to fix or better someone elses poor design. It takes knowledge, good judgement, and motivation. But it's fun and extremely satisfying. And you will make mistakes. It's all part of the process. I'm not trying to be harsh or critical, just offering a different way of looking at things.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

You admitted you were expecting to get flamed :thumbsup: Modifying suspensions significantly out of their original design parameters is something not so common to mnt. bikes. Bikes are built to be strong and light so a lot of consideration / engineering goes into design. Most if not all frame manufactures frown on any modifications - they don't want to see their frame brake or perform poorly to the masses. Sure you can modify your frame and it may work just fine for you... Imagine this , selling your modded XTS frame to the masses what would you have to support ist's strength & performance ? Your technical expertise based on "it looks strong" "it should work". Frame manufactures put a lot $$, time, & experience more into construction and design. This is an experiment that may work for you but I wouldn't stand on a soap box and proclaim a "Better" design, just an experiment.


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## mtb_biker (Jan 27, 2004)

from your pictures, it looks like the shock head will interfere/hit the original mounting area.


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

.....


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

keen said:


> You admitted you were expecting to get flamed :thumbsup: Modifying suspensions significantly out of their original design parameters is something not so common to mnt. bikes. Bikes are built to be strong and light so a lot of consideration / engineering goes into design. Most if not all frame manufactures frown on any modifications - they don't want to see their frame brake or perform poorly to the masses. Sure you can modify your frame and it may work just fine for you... Imagine this , selling your modded XTS frame to the masses what would you have to support ist's strength & performance ? Your technical expertise based on "it looks strong" "it should work". Frame manufactures put a lot $$, time, & experience more into construction and design. This is an experiment that may work for you but I wouldn't stand on a soap box and proclaim a "Better" design, just an experiment.


Good thing I have lots of time on my hands while I'm waiting for parts to finish building my bike to answer posts..... I expected to get flamed, but I also expected to explain what I'm doing. You hit the nail on the head when you brought up the bikes original design "parameters". I would agree with you if what I was doing was outside of the original design parameters, but it's not. As a matter of fact, not only is what I am doing within the design parameters, but it is actually below the design parameters and reducing force and stress on the bike due to the fact that I am underleveraging the shock and using a softer spring rate. After testing to verify 100% ( beacuse no matter how sure you are there is always the possibilty of error or unseen complications), I would have no problem offering this to other people. You need to understand that the 6.5" travel bike market is not the same as the 8+" market. Manufacturers have alot at stake with liabilty, warranty, etc. My improved design is just as strong as the stock one. However, at no time did I say that my new design was as strong as beefier 9" travel DH bikes. I did say that the head tube looked to be as strong to me as the headtubes on other DH bikes, but I also did the calculations based on faith in DB's $$ in research in making a headtube sufficient for a 7" travel fork, and I explained that adding a 1" longer fork only marginally increases leverage on the HT by 4.5%. I'm not basing my stuff on " it looks strong" or "it should work". The XTS frame IS strong and my design WILL work. "strong" is a subjective word. When I say strong I mean it is strong enough for my intended use and to support my modifications in that use, which is not going of 30' drops. I have done and explained the calculations several times in this thread. The misconception that people are getting is that my design is making the bike SUPER HUCKER DUDE compatible. I never said or implied this. I will simplify this. All I am doing is taking a 6.5" travel bike, and converting it to a 8.5-9" travel bike, improving the ride quality, and maintaining the original strength and capabiltiy of the bike. If the bike was capable of doing repeated 12 foot drops before, then it will be able to do so now. If it was going to break at 30' drops before, it's gonna break on a 30' drop now. There is the possibilty that it is stronger now due to less leverage and springrate on the shock, but I am not going to claim that. If so. i'll never find out I hope cause I don't plan on riding at the limits of the bike anyway. I would never sell this to anyone. If anyone has an XTS and wants this mod, I'd show them how to do it for free.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

QUOTE -You hit the nail on the head when you brought up the bikes original design "parameters". I would agree with you if what I was doing was outside of the original design parameters, but it's not.

Changing the shock leverage is not your only mention, you mentioned re-drilling the frame etc. I find it almost amusing now that you are so serious / confident about this modification for the masses. I have had several frames where I increased the shock length or stoke (and only slightly) to up the travel (usually by about an inch) . Strive for the CPSC recall list ie :

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml03/03018.html


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

W7_311 said:


> If you don't go huge or ride nasty dh, then why do you need over 8'' of front and rear travel? 6.5'' of travel is more than enough for most everything. Good luck with that setup, it looks scary, but only time will tell.


 I don't do 30' drops. I do do 10+ foot drops and am a somewhat aggresive rider. But I'm not crazy. I need to correct myself. I shouldn't say I won't break my bike. That would be absurd to say. I have broken bikes before and I'm sure I'll break em again. What I am saying is that my bike will not break due to my modification. If it breaks it's because I pushed it past it's original strength. What I'm saying is go do what ever you want on a stock XTS and go do the same thing on my modified XTS and it will not break any easier. That is what I am saying. 6.5" of travel to me sucks even riding down a flat road. I like a plush cushy ride. IT's more pleasant, fun. If I had never riden a 9" travel bike , 6.5" would be fine. As far as my bike looking scary.......well it's all in your head. Go look at an armageddon or something burly. Then imagine really hard, in your head, that the tube walls are 1/2 millimeter thick and imagine hucking it. I bet that burly bike would look really scary then to you.


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## focused1 (May 17, 2005)

Props for trying something new, and apparently something that everyone else is afraid to try. Good luck.


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## RadChad (Jul 12, 2005)

mtb_biker said:


> from your pictures, it looks like the shock head will interfere/hit the original mounting area.


In his first post he explains how he plans to cut the existing tab to make room for the new shock. :thumbsup:

lets see some pictures of this beast....


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

keen said:


> QUOTE -
> 
> Changing the shock leverage is not your only mention, you mentioned re-drilling the frame etc. I find it almost amusing now that you are so serious / confident about this modification for the masses. I have had several frames where I increased the shock length or stoke (and only slightly) to up the travel (usually by about an inch) . Strive for the CPSC recall list ie :
> 
> http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml03/03018.html


I never said this was a modification for the masses. I explained how drilling the hole is not a concern. The area where I am drilling is way over built and actually has too much material there and is just excess weight on the frame. You need to explain specifics on what the problem was with your frames.


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## coma13 (Sep 3, 2005)

Jekyll_Jockey said:


> OK Dude, do you even know what he is talking about? Did you do any research before you flamed this guy? And yes I am a mechanical engineer.
> 
> OK the 2004 Diamond back XTS Moto is made of 7005 Aluminum. The reason you make bike frames out of aluminum is because it is relatively strong and light.
> 
> ...


I didn't really word my original statement very well. Obviously it's made out of aluminum. I should have said that just because it's heavy it doesn't mean that the frame has been designed in such a way to handle the stresses of really aggresive riding. I was thinking more along the lines of it being poorly designed initially and the weight being attributed to unneccesary excess material that wouldn't actually strengthen the frame significantly. I don't actually know anything about the quality of this particular frame, or how it's constructed but I'm willing to bet that it doesn't use any of the features that more high end bikes use to strenghten themselves and maintain a reasonable weight such as butted or custom formed tubing, carefully CNC'd parts, all in addition to the actual welding of the frame, which is a whole other story.

I don't even know if that made sense or not but if you can wade through my rambling I salute you!


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## N8R (Feb 4, 2004)

mtb_biker said:


> from your pictures, it looks like the shock head will interfere/hit the original mounting area.


 Thats why I cut that original tab area off. The shock fits perfect now. This is a before mod pic. I'll post the after mod pics next week when I get the bike together and can find my camera.


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## skywaybuzz (Dec 31, 2003)

I did my 1999 or 2000 DBR X-
Link frame with a shock that got extra .12" stroke in the same i2i lenght , gave me like 1/2" more travel 4.5 to 5". Super Nice upgrade. The tire ,depending on the tire height will slightly buzz the seattube where its flat in the back on the DBR's.Your may rub real bad at full stroke with the amont of stroke added.
Edit: I see you only had a 2" stroke Fox RC on there originally, You could have upped to a good 2.25" stroke shock and not worry with all the other stuff. 2cents.


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## Ohio_Huck (May 13, 2004)

you guys need to stop your *****ing! good god! so what? its a little expiriment with an old frame. if it breaks it breaks. i did something very similar to an old ironhorse G spot, and it worked perfectly. yah know, in sports like skiing and skating, people ACTUALLY DESIGN AND BUILD THIER OWN STUFF! without having a masters in structural engineering. i know, insaine. 

anyway, good luck with the bike, sounds like a fun project until you get a better frame. granted, i do think you would have been better off with a new shock, as 6.5 is plenty of travel, but eh, a new shock cost money. drillin holes is free!


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## japollner (May 8, 2006)

N8R said:


> Interesting...., thats my other hobby.... off-road trucks. That is where I have learned alot of my fabing skills. Do you build rock crawlers or baja? My current project truck is a 93 toyota that I am building a custom fiberglass body for. I swapped out the crappy 3.0 v6 and put in a turbo Inline 6 motor from a 90 supra. I'm running 12lbs of boost and have around 320hp right now.


haha, it wasnt that extensive...i worked at a shop in NJ that took on some pretty intense jobs sometimes. www.okwd.com We've done tons of stuff. Ive helped out on fabrication of parts for custom lifts and some part tube frame buggies. I was never on my own, but I know the basics of mechanical fastening of aluminum to steel and how those joints react under stress.

Im just looking at the pics you gave us of the frame, and it looks like it definatly can be done to work. I dont know how strong the frame is, but it dosnt look like it will cause more stress than those welds can handle (unless they werent hot enough, and that beading is all show).

Back to offroad trucks, I work for a company in NH now that has outfitted 1973 Styer Puch Pinzgauers with bucket seats for 10 passengers and stereo/pa systems. We own 300 acres of land and take people off-roading in those. Alot of steep climbovers, mud holes...check it out  www.summersafari.com


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## Swoop (Oct 26, 2004)

Wow I read a lot of that and then I decided just to skip to the end. I forgot what the point of putting the new shock and hole was for? More travel isn't necessarily better... I rode a 6" travel bike for a long time. And did drops and doubles and cool stuff like that.


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## Guest (May 27, 2006)

I don't know why everyone is doubting this guy so much, he obviously did his homework.. He actually does knows what he is talking about and has the common sence that some people lack. If you carefully read everything he said (which were all clear well thought out explinations) you will see what he is planning to do and all of his obstacles he has to clear to gain success in making this modification. He knows the consequences, no warranty, I do not believe that the frame will undergo any gained stress from this modification, if anything, reduced amount of stress. I am actually looking forward to seeing postive results and a well done modification from this guy, no matter how many people are doubting him I believe that he will succeed.
I just can't believe everyone was saying things like (yeah it will break, cant drill holes in something that didnt have holes in it to begin with).... 
If you have the technical knowledge to prove that this design will infact undergo over-excessive negative results, show us.


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## Huck Banzai (May 8, 2005)

Red Bull said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> maybe i cant spell but atleast i dont drill holes in my frame and have false reasoning why it wont break


False reasoning?

Actually its quite sound. Its the preconceived notions of engineering and design around here that are faulty..

Might be tortionally at risk, but otherwise hes right; the only significant increase in frame stress would come from going bigger or faster as a result of more travel.


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

No big flame from me, but I still want to see the pics. That will tell a lot about any viability for this mod. I find it interesting. I've been scrolling up and down these posts...I didn't miss the final pics, did I?


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## Deweydude (Mar 7, 2004)

Do a WILL , leave everything you got to someone ! accept the bike !:nono:


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Deweydude said:


> Do a WILL , leave everything you got to someone ! accept the bike !:nono:


Are you talking about me? And the Escape that I built out of spare parts for my bud?


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

TNC said:


> I didn't miss the final pics, did I?


No sir.


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## Deweydude (Mar 7, 2004)

XSL_WiLL said:


> Are you talking about me? And the Escape that I built out of spare parts for my bud?


not unless you get to say where peoples sh!t goes when the die !ut:


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

HOFFMAN223 said:


> Has everyone forgotten how the mountain bike has evolved into what it is today? I am not saying N8R is inventing something new, in fact what I am saying is the route that he has taken is a route taken a million times before. Garage experimentation and home modification. How do you think FTW, Jeff Steber, Roskopp's designers, the Canfield boys and many others have gotten to where they are today? Trial and error, a tweak here, a "new hole" there, whatever it took. Before the mountain bike was so HUGE that money for CAD applications, engineers, multiple prototypes etc. came into play, brave souls with a desire to modify and improve existing designs did much the same thing. Basically, if N8R takes his time, dons the appropriate safety gear, starts small and works his way up, just like any semi-intelligent frame designer in the past has done, he should be OK and if he experiences any catastrophic failures in doing so, he is smart enough to take responsibility for such failures, there is nothing wrong with what he is doing.
> 
> And one last point that has bothered me for quite some time now.....I find it irritating yet humorous at the same time that many individuals on this board have the "brains" to criticize someone else, but cannot spell to save their lives. WTF! I may take a poll one day just to see how many 1st. graders actually respond to some of these threads, because, shouldn't that be about the only period in one's life where spelling is still a "challenge".
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I am not hating on anyone, I am just sick of all of the soap-box preaching. Let 'er rip N8R!


Well said. That's my take on this too. It might or might not work out, but what the hell? Give it a shot. Innovation is what has driven the sport, be it trying to go bigger and bigger, or to make some crazy mods to your bike to give in more travel, make it lighter, change the geo, etc. I'm interested to see how this project works out, and I think it has a shot at working. N8R, cool project, good luck with it.


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## imridingmybike (Jan 16, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> I don't know why everyone is doubting this guy so much, he obviously did his homework.. He actually does knows what he is talking about and has the common sence that some people lack. If you carefully read everything he said (which were all clear well thought out explinations) you will see what he is planning to do and all of his obstacles he has to clear to gain success in making this modification. He knows the consequences, no warranty, I do not believe that the frame will undergo any gained stress from this modification, if anything, reduced amount of stress. I am actually looking forward to seeing postive results and a well done modification from this guy, no matter how many people are doubting him I believe that he will succeed.
> I just can't believe everyone was saying things like (yeah it will break, cant drill holes in something that didnt have holes in it to begin with)....
> If you have the technical knowledge to prove that this design will infact undergo over-excessive negative results, show us.


I agree.

I've done this same thing to several bikes in several ways.

If you know what you're doing, you'll likely end up with a good result.

I think the underlying message of this thread is that most of the readers don't know what they're doing, and therefore shouldn't attempt these sorts of upgrades!


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

imridingmybike said:


> I think the underlying message of this thread is that most of the readers don't know what they're doing, and therefore shouldn't attempt these sorts of upgrades!


Modifications :thumbsup:


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## imridingmybike (Jan 16, 2005)

dogonfr said:


> Modifications :thumbsup:


Yep,

What the orignal poster discussed doing, I did to a circa 1997 Super V.

The bike came stock with 4" travel in back - I cut the forward shock mount , re-drilled it and had a custom Risse coil over shock made with another 1" stroke.

The bike ended up having 6" travel in the back - we removed the headshock and installed a Z1 in the front.

This was for a customer of mine at the bike shop I worked at. I saw him riding the bike several years later, in the same configuration I left it- happy as a clam, in the sand and high tide.

Modifications, when done right, are killer!


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

I think it's about time we got some pictures of this MF'er....


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## coma13 (Sep 3, 2005)

I'm assuming he modified it and it burst into flames and he died.... just like I said. I wouldn't expect any pictures...


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> i can't wait to see this deathtrap.....


should have got a Canfield


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Where are the fu*king photos?


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

I think we all need to gang up and make sure the original poster of this is shunned and banished from MTBR


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## themarsvolta55 (Dec 23, 2004)

i want some pics dizzle dooser


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## mtb_biker (Jan 27, 2004)

006_007 said:


> Another call for the pics. Specifically you riding the beast at speed through some challenging terrain. I volunteer the first $5 for your medical bills......


Looks like you might have to antie up biatch


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

ScaryJerry said:


> I think we all need to gang up and make sure the original poster of this is shunned and banished from MTBR


Looks like he killed himself on his bike, so that will be unessicary.


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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

Though still a stupid idea... Not as bad as this one. Come to think of it, did you see this post and think it was all right to follow? Fahn ps. True artwork on this other frame! http://hcor.net/postt26347.html&sid=092b6ad46dd645b4f2fad2a61da28545


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

LarryFahn said:


> Though still a stupid idea... Not as bad as this one. Come to think of it, did you see this post and think it was all right to follow? Fahn ps. True artwork on this other frame! http://hcor.net/postt26347.html&sid=092b6ad46dd645b4f2fad2a61da28545


Love that front tire clearance. Took the chainstay stiffeners out to run huge rear tire, gonna get a tad of flex where it allready flexes. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

Yet another day when I'm bored in my office and decide to see if we got pictures yet. And we don't. God damn it.


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## Derick (Apr 27, 2006)

i got a dimondback smokin i got the best dimondback money can buy custon huge tg inverted fork great for downhill racing whistler get some picks


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## Derick (Apr 27, 2006)

my dimondback is the best money can buy huge tg fork i paid 4000 great for huckin the shore and great for whistler the bike is one with whistler bike park


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## Derick (Apr 27, 2006)

i got the best dimondback money can buy 4000 big top gun inverted fork huge bike it is one whith whistler bike park and a hole in the shore but going up is a diferent story past some pics


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## revmonkey (Jun 5, 2005)

Derick said:


> i got the best dimondback money can buy 4000 big top gun inverted fork huge bike it is one whith whistler bike park and a hole in the shore but going up is a diferent story past some pics


maybe you should learn how to type.


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

revmonkey said:


> maybe you should learn how to type.


Hahahaha. I didn't really have any idea what he was taliking about either. Something about a Diamondback and Whistler..... 

I also like how he posted almost the same thing 3 times.


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## Derick (Apr 27, 2006)

i got the best


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## Derick (Apr 27, 2006)

dont worry the fu*king reflectors were off a soon a i paid for it


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## mtb_biker (Jan 27, 2004)

hooray some new entertainment


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

Put a Crack after Smoking you'll be really cool :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

Derick said:


> i got the best


i just threw up in my mouth


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## Derick (Apr 27, 2006)

no im puttin 4:20 after (smokin) lol


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## atomrcrkhsbiker (Sep 23, 2005)

Derick said:


> i got the best


No you dont... :nonod:


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## Evel Knievel (Mar 28, 2004)

How about some pics already. Ride impressions?


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## milhouse (Jun 22, 2004)

I want pics and more important feedback on how this worked.


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## IBLQQ2NCU (Feb 27, 2006)

I still think N8R is still recovering from all the beration of intelligence he recieved from many users on this forum. Look back, he had about 500 words to type as a response to all the negative posts. Probably break time.

lawl


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Poor kid, I think he knows what hes talking about and I think the db will stand it preety well


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## damion (Jun 27, 2003)

*what about the headtube?*

THere is no way that a frame with 6.5" of travel was designed to run with a 200mm dual crown fork.

Good luck with that. Just do not go and try to sue someone if you bust yor a$$.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

damion said:


> THere is no way that a frame with 6.5" of travel was designed to run with a 200mm dual crown fork.
> 
> Good luck with that. Just do not go and try to sue someone if you bust yor a$$.


Read all thread.


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## akhoundog (Apr 10, 2006)

it may just work, or it may just bust apart with no warranty. in any case it will never handle the same. iv got enough going throu my head when i approach a jump or drop off, than whether a dumb mod is going to kill me or not. you can do alot with 6 inches of travel, and if 6 wasnt enough before what makes you think doing that to the frame is going to make it any better? if it was that simple to get 9 + inches out of a little frame like that it would have bin done to begin with.


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## 古強者死神 (May 12, 2006)

I like to "tinker" with things. Usually my computer or somthing but hey if bikes are your thing and he has the time/money/tools to mod his bike up so be it. Not like anybody has the right to go agaist him for working on his bike and potentially risking his health.

If he isnt going to be jumping 20 foot gaps and stuff I think it should hold up just fine and he has all the braging rights he wants when its all said and done if he is still alive.


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

Guess we never get pictures. Sad.


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## DRIDE (Nov 13, 2005)

N8R said:


> The shock bolt will break way before the mount ever would.


I doubt that. Even a Grade 2 bolt has a higher yield than the aluminum.. However, the bolt is in double shear..

If anything, the mount will break off at the welds, or the bolt hole will ovalize..


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## DRIDE (Nov 13, 2005)

Have you checked to make sure your going to have clearance for the new "design"?

ie, the res isn't going run into the seat tube etc..


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

so, where are the pics? it would have only taken me 10 minutes to grind down the plates and drill new holes. there is no rocket science here....


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

He's probibly kicking back watching the page & thread count rise, probibly getting his personal rise on.


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## free rider (Nov 14, 2005)

F*ck that i quit....after reading all that not to see any pics pf what the f*cking guy did...im actually pissed off now, f*ck you whoever started this thread...if there arnt anypics on here in 10 minutes im going on a baby killing spree...f*ck you all its whoever started this threads fault........:madman: :madman::madman::madman::madman: :madman::madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman:


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

free rider said:


> F*ck that i quit....after reading all that not to see any pics pf what the f*cking guy did...im actually pissed off now, f*ck you whoever started this thread...if there arnt anypics on here in 10 minutes im going on a baby killing spree...f*ck you all its whoever started this threads fault........:madman: :madman::madman::madman::madman: :madman::madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman:


Dude! Chill!!!!


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## free rider (Nov 14, 2005)

Hardtails Are Better said:


> Dude! Chill!!!!


rft: :incazzato: :ciappa: :ihih: :arf: :smallviolin: :devil: :crazy: :aureola: :idea:

poop on you rft:


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## kveldssanger (Jun 26, 2006)

sweet, love the mechanical disks on a 8.5in travel bike. really though, way to be creative. Wish i had the courage to try something like this.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

THIS THREAD SUCKS AS MUCH AS A MANIPOO KINGPIN


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## endoh (Mar 8, 2006)

i wasted seven minutes of my life looking for pictures of the broken frame and medevac helicopter. i was really hoping that he did it and it worked.


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## Dibs (Oct 5, 2005)

I'm not sure how safe the mods are but I guarantee those weaka$$ XC cranks will break long before the frame does.


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## Deweydude (Mar 7, 2004)

why can't we just let this fvcking thread 
DIE


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