# E-bike explosion



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a25890860/electric-bike-explodes/

I'll just leave this here for all of you to discuss.

Forest fire potential?


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Same potential as your phone’s battery exploding.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Same potential as your phone's battery exploding.


On a much grander scale.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Same potential as your phone's battery exploding.


Sorry, no comparison.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

For those of you that don't think there is a comparison you are wrong. The phone in your pocket can actually more easily start a fire since you can damage the battery in your phone easier than that on an e-bike.

For every e-bike fire there are hundreds of phone fires (remember Samasung?) and e-cig fires caused by batteries.

so unless you go into the wilderness with ZERO batteries or anything that could cause a spark or enough friction to start a fire you are just as much as a danger.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm one of those ^^  

Why? as I play that on my head this is what I see: 

I'm riding my e-bike and the thing explodes! Being on the bike, there goes my balls and any chance to do anything to prevent a fire. (or have children)  

If my cell catches on fire, I'm sure I can mange to put it out without creating a wild fire. Stump on it, and its dead. 

Do you think guys that ride at night, even think about this with their lights?


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

jcd46 said:


> I'm one of those ^^
> 
> Why? as I play that on my head this is what I see:
> 
> ...


You have never seen a lipo ignite if you think you can put it out and stop a fire. You're not going to stomp it out if there is enough try fuel around it spreads faster than you would think.

I'll add this there are thousands of e-bikes being ridden around Europe, gee no fire issues.
Where are all the news reports of fires in commuter lanes of ebikes use for that?
Or where are all the hybrid and Tesla fires?

The batteries are safe, yes there can be fire but this is fear mongering at best.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> You have never seen a lipo ignite if you think you can put it out and stop a fire. You're not going to stomp it out if there is enough try fuel around it spreads faster than you would think.
> 
> I'll add this there are thousands of e-bikes being ridden around Europe, gee no fire issues.
> Where are all the news reports of fires in commuter lanes of ebikes use for that?
> ...


Tesla's are notoriously fire prone, you might not want to use them as an example.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Fear mongering at it best! 

Whats next? Microwave (because of bluetooth connectivity) causing testicular cancer?


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Rome


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Australia


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

jcd46 said:


> Australia


You know that video is the same news story as the OP right? LOL!!!!

E-bikes are safe 
E-bikes are just as safe as anything else driving around or being carried in modern society that can 
start a fire.

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-...zardous-conditions/10-causes-of-car-fires.htm

Oh cars can start on fire and are a fire hazarded lets ban them!

If you don't like e-bikes that's fine but don't stoop to fear mongering.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

SO. . . . homemade e-bike catches fire. . . . therefore all legitimate e-bikes are now fire hazards? That about right?


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Just log out and go ride your bikes, Keyboard Warriors!

Hopefully you don’t have magnesium pedals or magnesium fork lowers  those can start fires too.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

I had a battery short inside my pocket years ago with an Ericsson T28. I felt some serious heat inside my pocket. When i took it out...the back of the battery was starting to warp. I was able to remove the battery. If it did catch fire in my pocket...I would have gotten burned...bad.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Same potential as your phone's battery exploding.


Exactly.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

E-bike fires are coming, all you ebike fire haters are just going to have to deal with it. 

If you don’t like ebike fires why are you on an ebike Fire forum? 

The number of cell phones in the world compared to the number of fires is minuscule, the number of ebikes compared to ebike fires is frightening. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

sfgiantsfan said:


> E-bike fires are coming, all you ebike fire haters are just going to have to deal with it.
> 
> If you don't like ebike fires why are you on an ebike Fire forum?
> 
> ...


Ah sure man can you give this frightening ratio that has you all in a tizzy?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Seriously, the risk is so miniscule it wouldn't even register. /thread.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

KenPsz said:


> Ah sure man can you give this frightening ratio that has you all in a tizzy?


Just my experience watching the news and talking to people trailside. I've never talked about phones exploding but at the trailhead the other day we talked about ebike fires.

Don't be such a hater- I must have struck a nerve.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Just my experience watching the news and talking to people trailside. I've never talked about phones exploding but at the trailhead the other day we talked about ebike fires.
> 
> Don't be such a hater- I must have struck a nerve.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh how does that old saying go?

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness."

Irrational fears will get people to talk about a lot of crazy made up stuff at times.


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

You are more likely to be struck by lightning


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

I am tired of these pedal bikes giving eBikes a bad name. There needs to be a crackdown on manufacturing and sales of bikes that are sold without a motor as it only inspires the buyer to purchase a poorly built motor/battery.


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

And those Steel framed bikes attracting lightening.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Discharge rate is a factor in making battery chemistry unstable. Comparing a phone battery to an ebike battery in dicharge rate and volume/stored energy is silly. Unless you have one of those briefcase satellite phones from the 80's, those are cool.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

WHALENARD said:


> Discharge rate is a factor in making battery chemistry unstable. Comparing a phone battery to an ebike battery in dicharge rate and volume/stored energy is silly. Unless you have one of those briefcase satellite phones from the 80's, those are cool.


Really? Then why is my phone hot when I have Strava recording my KOM. Its just recording GPS coordinates right?

Also in crash. Which battery is more likely to crack? A flat li-ion encased in a very thin shell? Or a emtb battery with thick aluminum chassis, inside the frames downtube that adds more protection?

Im sure Emtb manufacturers did their homework in building their bikes. To be fun, efficient and safe.

Thats so silly!


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Really?


Yeah, really.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Yeah, LIPOs catch fire, that part of it isn't news, it can be interesting when it happens at the same place 3 times though.

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a260...HMGtOnpcH7j0LZrFGok0imfNHF6R6YnXjX3omINlng0Wc

And well engineered LIPO battery packs, like those in our phones, and in an ebike company that is afraid of LIPO fires, don't burst into flames enough to worry about either. I'm not worried about a Trek/Specialized/Haibike/Focus bursting into flames, the odds are tiny. I'm not even worried about cheap chinese packs, or DIY spotwelded packs taking off, although, I charge the packs for my lights in the garage, because you never know. Even with them, the odds are still pretty low, a lot lower than someone intentionally setting a fire, or cigarette butt, the usual stuff.

The thing is, the laws allowing ebikes don't differentiate between a well engineered pack, and a POS one, so if one is allowed, all are allowed, so the argument that yours won't start a fire, doesn't mean that everyone's won't start a fire. I wouldn't advocate banning emtbs because of fire danger, but it's on the mind of at least the OC park staff, because they banned emtbs just for that reason. Maybe they see a lot of BSO ebikes on their trails? Maybe they're scared of the sky falling? I don't know, not my business.

I'd advocate banning phones on trails though, not because of their batteries, but because I'm sick of earbudded idiots.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Curveball said:


> https://www.bicycling.com/news/a25890860/electric-bike-explodes/
> 
> I'll just leave this here for all of you to discuss.
> 
> Forest fire potential?


Possible, but not likely. A 4x10 stack of 18650 batteries is running a maximum current of 4 amps in each cell; 20 percent of the maximum continuous current of 20 amps typically specified by battery manufacturers.

Worry when eBike fires are no longer newsworthy.

If you want sensationalism, and I think that you do because that incident has already been posted on this forum, go read Mike Vandeman's regular posts on google groups celebrating every death of or serious injury to a mountain biker.

If eBikes are eventually allowed on public land, it may be wise to keep them out during periods of extreme fire danger; usually the forests are closed to everyone during those episodes so I doubt it will be an inconvenience.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

hikerdave said:


> Possible, but not likely. A 4x10 stack of 18650 batteries is running a maximum current of 4 amps in each cell; 20 percent of the maximum continuous current of 20 amps typically specified by battery manufacturers.
> 
> Worry when eBike fires are no longer newsworthy.
> 
> ...


There really are people that celebrate when mountain bikers get seriously injured!?! that is messed up!


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> There really are people that celebrate when mountain bikers get seriously injured!?! that is messed up!


You haven't heard about the booby traps? They turn up from time to time


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> Tesla's are notoriously fire prone, you might not want to use them as an example.


Not enough Teslas are on the road to know for sure, but early indications are that Teslas are about a tenth as likely to catch fire as a gasoline-powered automibile and infinitely more likely to catch fire when compared with pedal cars.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/news/companies/electric-car-fire-risk/index.html

Sometimes what you think you that you know is wrong; when I looked this up I thought that I would find the opposite. Still, its worrying to know that on any weekday a half dozen Teslas are parked while charging at my workplace.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Harryman said:


> You haven't heard about the booby traps? They turn up from time to time


Once I looked up the guys name I remember the stories of that guy, he is a real nut case. How no one has beaten the breaks of him by now I don't get.

I remember reading about those booby traps in one of the magazines decades ago, that was really messed up.

I'm really glad I don't live and bike in California given the issues they have with trail users getting along.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

This is just humans refusing to accept that humans cause problems, and looking to point a finger elsewhere, preferably an inanimate object that doesn't do wrong by itself except when a human messes with it. xD

Surprised people don't fear higher tech surveillance and enforcement more than ebikes. Keep putting demand on specific regulations and this might be the answer. xD


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

hikerdave said:


> Not enough Teslas are on the road to know for sure, but early indications are that Teslas are about a tenth as likely to catch fire as a gasoline-powered automibile and infinitely more likely to catch fire when compared with pedal cars.
> 
> https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/news/companies/electric-car-fire-risk/index.html
> 
> Sometimes what you think you that you know is wrong; when I looked this up I thought that I would find the opposite. Still, its worrying to know that on any weekday a half dozen Teslas are parked while charging at my workplace.


 A friend of mine just bought his second Tesla, the AWD Performance model (0-60 in 2.9 seconds) I asked him that exact question and he said you have a greater chance in an ICE powered car, that's what the stats show anyway. How about starting a page for mtbr's in car accidents while driving to the trail head? I'm sure that happens occasionally also. Batteries blowing up is kind of like the fear some have of plastic fuel jugs sparking and causing a fire, IT HAPPENS, but it's very rare, and there is usually a good reason. Prior damage or excessive charge rates or even a dead short. Who the hell knows with this one, could have been a loose connection/dead short. It's extremely doubtful it was a well designed pack, mounted properly, and being used correctly.


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

life behind bars said:


> Tesla's are notoriously fire prone, you might not want to use them as an example.


Can you link that information?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Curveball said:


> Forest fire potential?


My buddy and I were chatting about this so I did a Google search and the number of battery fires I came across was mind blowing. Where I live forestry companies are already closing riding areas in the summer when it gets too dry and that's for hikers and mountain bikers who aren't carrying a high powered IED aka e-bike battery with them into the forest.

If e-bikes are allowed in these areas I expect the closures will start earlier and last longer unless they specifically prohibit only e-bikes. It's easier to just close the forest to all users than police the closure based on an inspection of what you are riding.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

hikerdave said:


> Possible, but not likely. A 4x10 stack of 18650 batteries is running a maximum current of 4 amps in each cell; 20 percent of the maximum continuous current of 20 amps typically specified by battery manufacturers.


Capacity or mah will dictate amps, and most (to my knowledge) high output batteries use larger cells than 18650. Plenty of people burn their homes down with hobby batteries of various chemical make-ups including famous mountain biker Mark Weir.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

vikb said:


> My buddy and I were chatting about this so I did a Google search and the number of battery fires I came across was mind blowing. Where I live forestry companies are already closing riding areas in the summer when it gets too dry and that's for hikers and mountain bikers who aren't carrying a high powered IED aka e-bike battery with them into the forest.
> 
> If e-bikes are allowed in these areas I expect the closures will start earlier and last longer unless they specifically prohibit only e-bikes. It's easier to just close the forest to all users than police the closure based on an inspection of what you are riding.


Even if they're not allowed in these areas. I see lots of e-bikes poaching water shed and timber stand trsils. If one of these area's were to burn due to a bike fire it'd be game over. Especially a large water shed like Bull Run that supplies the city of Portland.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

He added the lithium battery to it.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

scatterbrained said:


> SO. . . . homemade e-bike catches fire. . . . therefore all legitimate e-bikes are now fire hazards? That about right?


This is exactly why I had the LBS do my wiring, or I would have made a fire too lol. The wiring was beyond insane. I guess if you could get Google translate to hover over a Chinese .PDF blueprint it might not have been quite as bad.

I don't know why the Feds are not regulating the motors and batteries more about fire risk. If they are imported they should still pass a certain safety inspection...in the USA BTW, not in China.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Of course, when autos first showed up, we had the first auto accident, auto fires, autos stuck in ditches...
...now we have the first report of an ebike fire on mtbr!...

There will be more, but not as much as lightning. Lightning leads the score with strikes to the earth, causing fires!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

richj8990 said:


> I don't know why the Feds are not regulating the motors and batteries more about fire risk. If they are imported they should still pass a certain safety inspection...in the USA BTW, not in China.


This is actually more of what I was getting at. Dirt bikes need to have spark arrestors to prevent fires and it would seem like a good idea for something similar for e-bikes.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Yes, they are EXPLODING! In popularity, that is...


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## ruthabagah (Jun 4, 2018)

2 ebike's battery, on at least one confirmed home made setup, exploded. On the road. Moving on


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> ... I'll add this there are thousands of e-bikes being ridden around Europe, gee no fire issues.
> ...
> The batteries are safe, yes there can be fire but this is fear mongering at best.


Fear mongering regarding "oh no, a forest fire risk", but not with regards to what the original incident _may_ indicate.

Key there is that the rider didn't buy an e-bike, but added parts to turn an existing bike into an e-bike. When doing that, you either need to know what you're doing, or you're at the mercy of suitability, compatibility and what the supplier did or didn't do, anywhere up the chain prior to your purchasing and installing.

There's a lot of energy in an e-bike battery. With a huge difference in fire incident risk depending on:

the lithium chemistry, ie. LIPO vs. LiFePO4 or other chemistries,
the cell construction, design and quality of build,
the pack construction, design and quality of build,
the electronic Battery Management System (I hope he had one) and which items it manages (hint: temp of cell/pack is one desirable), design and build quality. 

Note that Europeans tend to buy, hence sellers build, quality items. 
I haven't looked recently, but it used to be Europe used LiFePO4 the most, and wouldn't use LIPO. I would expect that to explain European incident stats, and skew it for some years if LIPO is/was adopted. (They also like front-drive systems over rear-drive systems.)

The OP incident was DIY and in Australia (which can tend to be a hot place). So rather than a random failure, I'd be suspecting:

prior installation/riding damage to the pack or cell, or
no or inadequate BMS not throttling back or shutting down on over temp. 

I would not want to be around an LIPO cell that blew a leak, or a LIPO pack that had a thermal runaway. I don't recall the stats, but my takeaway from what I saw was that LIPO had significantly higher number of incidents, its leaked contents were more likely to ignite, and was the only chemistry that had had what appeared to be spontaneous (not while charging or discharging) rupture/combustion or that had resulted in significant damage to property.

Note that part of the large number of LIPO incidents may be due to their higher energy density being used in RC devices. Then that availability resulted in their being used in other devices (i.e., vape pens) and later in those devices where weight is a marketing issue (cell phones). In maximizing the low-weight-for-energy qualities of LIPO, it may be that some cell/pack designs used a more minimal physical containment. Then at higher temperatures (charging/discharging) that containment was inadequate at containing the cell expansion, resulting in cell rupture, which may or may not ignite.


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