# Dealing with horses....and their humans.



## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

Just fricking venting...
I am getting tired of turning the other cheek when dealing with the 1600 lb. beasts and their 150 lb owners.
We volunteer at our local park doing maintenance on the multi-use trails. For 20+ years our time, money and love of the park has never been questioned or debated, but once again, the equine crowd could not wait for things to dry out.
Each year we appeal to the horse crowd, park director, park ranger and the board of members to restrict the use of the beast until the trails dry out (June 15?).
I spoke this past winter to one of the culprits. She told me there was no way they would delay riding nor would they EVER go back after a ride and rake the dung off the trail. 
I spoke then to the director who trivialized my concerns and told me of the donations ($$) of the horse crowd out weighs the inconvenience of damage and turd..... f-ing pisses me off.


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## Rock (Jan 13, 2004)

"the donations ($$) of the horse crowd out weighs the inconvenience of damage and turd".

Google "How the world works".


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

those horses pay far more taxes than you


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Don't yield...when riding.


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## toyotatacomaTRD (Apr 4, 2012)

They are a very difficult group. There was a horse poker run on state land where I ride a few weeks back. I'm guessing 200 or so. I stopped and pulled over each time I came across them. One lady freaked out because apparently I didn't stop enough in front of them. Said her horse is not used to bikes and I will probably want to head home because they have an event today. I was really taken back by her brass comment that she thought I shouldn't be on public land just because they were out there. I told her I wouldn't bring a skittish horse here on a weekend and took off before they could get moving again. I haven't been back to that area yet, but sure it's unrideable and completely littered with droppings.


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

When riding in equine infested areas it is of utmost importance to war eye protection and to breathe through your nose...also, in turns that $hit is slippery.


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

There is a very vocal group of people that constantly harass the town about horse damage and droppings on our local nature preserve that is multi-use and for some reason allows horses. 

Since they started to complain the number of horses on the trails have declined, a lot. It became very clear that pretty much every other user of the trail hated them being there. They are just SOOOOO arrogant about being on a horse. EVERYONE else has to play by your rules because you decided to bring a poorly trained 1,000lb animal onto busy, public use trails. 

If I'm on my bike, I'm expected to stop, move all the way over and wait for them to pass. If I have my dog on a walk, I'm expected to do the same, some want me to hide my dog as much as possible! 

I just laugh at them and inform them that MY animal is trained, maybe they should do the same!


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

LOL!...even being from Texas, I have found many and probably most trail horse people to be arrogant, obnoxious, priveleged a-holes. I'm a little bit sorry to paint with so broad a brush, but it's what I've encountered in most of my contacts with them. One of our state parks north of me has some pretty darned good singletrack trails open to hiking, biking, and horses. In over half the contacts I've had there, these riders are a bunch of terrified ninny's when it comes to encountering anyone...sometimes even other horse riders. I'm also a hunter and go to some ranches that have actual cowboys who use horse for actual work. They will tell you a horse and rider who can't handle other people, machinery, loud noises, and the occasional surprise from whatever aren't worth a damn...LOL!

So...OP...I guess I'm totally with you on your rant...LOL! Seems you have to have a decent amount of money to be a trail-style horse person...big truck, hauler, expensive horse. There seems to be an almost unavoidable disease that combines money and horses to bring out the worst in this category. Almost as bad as those emtb riders.😁


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## Clyde Ride (Jun 7, 2019)

Is this a horse issue? Or an asshole issue? Following my local MTB FB group makes it pretty clear that the horse group could have their pick of MTB dipshits to discuss too.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

1spd1way said:


> Just fricking venting...
> I am getting tired of turning the other cheek when dealing with the 1600 lb. beasts and their 150 lb owners.
> We volunteer at our local park doing maintenance on the multi-use trails. For 20+ years our time, money and love of the park has never been questioned or debated, but once again, the equine crowd could not wait for things to dry out.
> Each year we appeal to the horse crowd, park director, park ranger and the board of members to restrict the use of the beast until the trails dry out (June 15?).
> ...


And their 10 pound piles of ****.


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## dsciulli19 (Apr 14, 2014)

I'm all for shared trail use, but after being almost run down on a narrow trail by a horse who'd decided to toss its rider and go for a sprint (long before I saw him), I am very wary of horses and their drivers. 

let's be honest, my bike isn't going to take off on its own, no matter how horrible of a rider I am.

-DS


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## wschruba (Apr 13, 2012)

milehi said:


> Don't yield...when riding.


I understand the "intent" behind this, but it's a good way to get kicked in the head by a horse you startled.


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## CEB (Mar 17, 2005)

Horses are plain old AFRAID. They are NOT predators by nature, but are prey. They have adapted and thrived on earth being able to outrun those that pursue them for a meal. It's within their DNA to be fearful. Fast forward to today, they don't see mtbikers as anything less than a predator that wants to eat them. So yeah, that hoof stuck in the side of your head is simply a reaction to not wanting to be a meal. Those that ride horses must understand this or they risk taking their "bold and beautiful" animal into what the horse thinks is harms way. Don't mess with a large, 1,200+ pound animal that is afraid, it's life & death from their perspective. 

Years ago I went backpacking (yeah, walking) with a train of Llamas to carry our gear high into the Wind River range (Wy). Our guide was quick to point out that if we see a horse & rider, try our best to hide the Llamas (behind trees) as we put the rider in great danger. Horses DO NOT readily recognize Llamas, and unless trained and used to them they believe the Llama is a predator. I witnessed just that. A horse & rider going past caught a glimpse of the Llamas and FREAKED OUT!


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

wschruba said:


> I understand the "intent" behind this, but it's a good way to get kicked in the head by a horse you startled.


Always yield. IMBA, non enforceable, rules. An equestrian can seriously be injured if thrown, including the rare ahole that I've encountered. Most equestrians are nice, even when you catch them on mountain bike only trails In Kentuckiana they are a potent political force, even though they do NO trail maintenance.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

CEB said:


> Horses are plain old AFRAID. They are NOT predators by nature, but are prey. They have adapted and thrived on earth being able to outrun those that pursue them for a meal. It's within their DNA to be fearful. Fast forward to today, they don't see mtbikers as anything less than a predator that wants to eat them. So yeah, that hoof stuck in the side of your head is simply a reaction to not wanting to be a meal. Those that ride horses must understand this or they risk taking their "bold and beautiful" animal into what the horse thinks is harms way. Don't mess with a large, 1,200+ pound animal that is afraid, it's life & death from their perspective.
> 
> Years ago I went backpacking (yeah, walking) with a train of Llamas to carry our gear high into the Wind River range (Wy). Our guide was quick to point out that if we see a horse & rider, try our best to hide the Llamas (behind trees) as we put the rider in great danger. Horses DO NOT readily recognize Llamas, and unless trained and used to them they believe the Llama is a predator. I witnessed just that. A horse & rider going past caught a glimpse of the Llamas and FREAKED OUT!


People who have a horse that reacts as described have no business taking it out in public. 
No different than having a shitty, poorly trained dog and letting it run around without a leash.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

I think every 1.9 months another thread about this comes up, dries up slowly....then we get two weeks vacation...then another horse thread....forever....


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

CEB said:


> Horses are plain old AFRAID. They are NOT predators by nature, but are prey. They have adapted and thrived on earth being able to outrun those that pursue them for a meal. It's within their DNA to be fearful. Fast forward to today, they don't see mtbikers as anything less than a predator that wants to eat them. So yeah, that hoof stuck in the side of your head is simply a reaction to not wanting to be a meal. Those that ride horses must understand this or they risk taking their "bold and beautiful" animal into what the horse thinks is harms way. Don't mess with a large, 1,200+ pound animal that is afraid, it's life & death from their perspective.
> 
> Years ago I went backpacking (yeah, walking) with a train of Llamas to carry our gear high into the Wind River range (Wy). Our guide was quick to point out that if we see a horse & rider, try our best to hide the Llamas (behind trees) as we put the rider in great danger. Horses DO NOT readily recognize Llamas, and unless trained and used to them they believe the Llama is a predator. I witnessed just that. A horse & rider going past caught a glimpse of the Llamas and FREAKED OUT!


*Horses*

are afraid of only two things.....

a) things that move

b) things that don't move


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> People who have a horse that reacts as described have no business taking it out in public.
> No different than having a shitty, poorly trained dog and letting it run around without a leash.


Same goes for children, even, or maybe especially the adult ones.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I actually had a Woman on a horse ask me to ride near her horse and chase her up the hill. She was training her animal to be less afraid of things that move and things that don't move.

Sounds like the OP's issue is more with the user base being trail damaging idiots more so than conflict. To that, as long as the land managers are not willing to enforce better trail behavior you are sorta out of luck. The only option you really have is to either get a petition going and get enough signatures to force the local municipality to force the hand of the land managers, or convince all the MTBer's who do trail maintenance to abandon the area and just leave it to the equestrian groups. eventually they will destroy the trails if your crew is not repairing them.


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## Barbapapa (Apr 15, 2021)

The area I usually ride is used by hikers, hunters, mountain bikers, and horses. Dirt bikes and ATVs used to be allowed but I wish they had banned horses instead. Both motorized vehicles and horses destroy the trails more than mountain bikes but at least ATVs don't sh*t all over the trails and their riders tend to be much less arrogant and rude. There are some nice horse riders but even most of them have horses that freak out at the smallest thing and make the owner all pissy. There was this one rider who was slowly riding her gorse down the trail when I came up behind her. I slowed down and tried to get her attention to ask her how she preferred that I pass. She didn't respond at all after I called out to her a dozen times so I had to slowly follow her until she turned off onto another trail, how much of an a*hole can you be? Another guy I came up on started getting all mad because apparently I hadn't stopped soon enough so his horse started going apesh*t crazy. If you're too lazy to train your horse don't take it on mixed use trails. They use to use horses in frontline combat and fire guns off their backs while a cannon went off 10 feet away so you should be able to train your horse to ignore the bike going past you.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Barbapapa said:


> Another guy I came up on started getting all mad because apparently I hadn't stopped soon enough so his horse started going apesh*t crazy. If you're too lazy to train your horse don't take it on mixed use trails. They use to use horses in frontline combat and fire guns off their backs while a cannon went off 10 feet away so you should be able to train your horse to ignore the bike going past you.


unfortunately many equestrians pay other people to train and take care of their horses...... When you ride on the back of a 2000lb animal the best practice is to know your animal well and for it to know you well too. A good equestrian will develop a relationship with their animal. Daily care and interaction to build the trust.

Just pulling your horse out of the stable once every other month and expecting a well behaved animal is a pipe dream. As a teen we owned a few horses and I have some first hand experience with this.

Too many equestrians are "weekend warriors" so to speak. they want to enjoy the ride but not put in the time with the animal.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> People who have a horse that reacts as described have no business taking it out in public.
> No different than having a shitty, poorly trained dog and letting it run around without a leash.


This,
I grew up with horse, but wasn't much interested in riding them since I had a dirt bike and then mtn bikes. My father spend an enormous amount of time training his horse to behave around bikes, motorcycles, construction sites, dogs etc. It took time and effort. Most horse people I know now do not want put the effort into training their animal and expect others to change their behavior to accommodate their untrained horse


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## Prognosticator (Feb 15, 2021)

My wife has been an equine veterinarian for over 20 years. It might be the region we live in, but I would hardly consider the trail-riding crowd to be monied. They are well organized, though, and most of their organizations have been around far longer than any MTB organization, so they have developed some political clout.

I am good friends with the manager of the largest university-owned experimental forest in the US. The forest is open to horses, hikers and MTB. The forest is not only recreational but also home to experiments in forest, water and wildlife management. I asked once what was harder on the forest, horses or MTB. He said without hesitation that horses are way harder on the forest. They ruin trails, their manure often contains seeds from invasive species, and he said that horse people are "trashy" (his word) I think meaning that they quite literally leave trash behind.

I know this, where I live they leave cigarette butts behind in the parking lot!


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## mike256 (Sep 4, 2020)

Gees makes me realise how lucky i used to be, but maybe because it was the country crowd and not the city crowd on the horses. Riding our dirtbikes we would just power off and roll past if we were able and if we couldnt we would wait for them to pass and always got a wave of appreciation from the horse riders. The respect always seemed to go both ways and everyone was happy and the horses werent worried in the slightest. Soft riders on soft horses youre dealing with it seems.


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## toyotatacomaTRD (Apr 4, 2012)

We've had an explosion of remote workers flock to where I live. Trailheads I've been pulling up to for 25 years are now full often. The thing that rubs me the wrong way is I'll often be pulling up to my 3rd trailhead so I can park legally when I run across a couple dually, long bed trucks with horse trailers taking up 3-4 spots a piece... then when you run across them they give attitude while they're on their 1 ton trail wrecker.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

toyotatacomaTRD said:


> We've had an explosion of remote workers flock to where I live. Trailheads I've been pulling up to for 25 years are now full often. The thing that rubs me the wrong way is I'll often be pulling up to my 3rd trailhead so I can park legally when I run across a couple dually, long bed trucks with horse trailers taking up 3-4 spots a piece... then when you run across them they give attitude while they're on their 1 ton trail wrecker.


And you didn't even think to leave a deuce on their hood?


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## mike256 (Sep 4, 2020)

toyotatacomaTRD said:


> We've had an explosion of remote workers flock to where I live. Trailheads I've been pulling up to for 25 years are now full often. The thing that rubs me the wrong way is I'll often be pulling up to my 3rd trailhead so I can park legally when I run across a couple dually, long bed trucks with horse trailers taking up 3-4 spots a piece... then when you run across them they give attitude while they're on their 1 ton trail wrecker.


Why are they riding on mtb/walking trails in the first place? Cant they just ride on dirt roads?


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## fmendes (Jun 25, 2016)

The typical "my freedom is freer than yours". Very common nowadays.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

spaightlabs said:


> Same goes for children, even, or maybe especially the adult ones.


A dog/horse/cat/hamster isn't human, regardless of what any of those 'fur baby' weirdos might think, so no, it's a completely different thing.

Anthropomorphizing animals is silly


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## PhillipJ (Aug 23, 2013)

CEB said:


> Horses are plain old AFRAID.


This is not an excuse for not being in control of the animal. Have you heard of cavalry.


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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

Wow lots of hate here. I have both horses and ride MTB on the same trails. Never had a bad experience with other cyclists when on horseback, I keep my head on a swivel and try to stay away from people in general, if a trail looks crowded I take a different route. It's also a lot easier for me to pull off the trail into the bushes to let a cyclist by. That said, my horses are fairly laid back and don't scare all that easy, I just don't trust people to know how to act around horses, there is just no such thing as a bomb-proof horse, no matter how well trained. The worst situation I was ever in was when riding past a little ramada area that had a kid's birthday party going on, the kids spotted me on the horse and yelled 'HORSEY!' and came RUNNING, I about had a heart attack and booked it out of there. The adults there apparently thought it was funny and did not intervene.

I guess I can address a few issues that were brought up in this thread: 1. manure. it's just grass. I do not have a grass pasture and my horses solely eat grass pellets. I am also not hiking back for miles to shovel. I can usually tell if the horse is about to go, and go off the trail, when I can.2. hooves on wet trails. I do not ride when wet. my horses are older and I do not want to risk injury. slippery mud is a no go. Most of my (responsible) horse friends do not ride wet trails either for the same reasons. However, every community has their bad apples.

As for MTBers/hikers on shared trails there have been some annoyances: please don't park right in front of the horse gate, horses need some room to step thru/over and have a small landing area on the other side. That's it, really. Every cyclist I've run into has been friendly and made small talk.

From what it sounds like it's an overcrowding issue, if the trails are that full from what other folks are saying here, I stay away, MTB or horse equally. Too many people cause trouble in general.....


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

VanHalen said:


> 1. manure. it's just grass. I do not have a grass pasture and my horses solely eat grass pellets. I am also not hiking back for miles to shovel. I can usually tell if the horse is about to go, and go off the trail, when I can.


This is a huge problem. The attitude "I'm not hiking back for miles to shovel". Then don't bring the animal anywhere you're not willing to clean up after it.

If you watched my dog take a dump on your yard and I just walked away because I'm not about to bend over and pick it up, would you be happy with me?

As for it being grass, some of them are invasive and non-native grasses that can contain seeds in the manure.

In nature preserves this can be a huge issue. Like the one near me fighting non-native, invasive grasses in sensitive areas.


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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

FrankS29 said:


> This is a huge problem. The attitude "I'm not hiking back for miles to shovel". Then don't bring the animal anywhere you're not willing to clean up after it.
> 
> If you watched my dog take a dump on your yard and I just walked away because I'm not about to bend over and pick it up, would you be happy with me?
> 
> ...


Maybe in your area it's an issue? Where I live there's tons of wildlife and droppings everywhere, deer, wild horses, burros, you name it. Do you have any workable solutions for the horse community in your area? Maybe ask the equestrian community to put in a few hours of trail maintenance here and there? The way the population around the country is going the horse community seems to always be on the losing side. New houses getting built close to the farm? People will complain, bye bye farm. Trails that were frequented by horses long before hoards of cyclists moved in are now getting bombarded by city people that don't have to commute anymore. I bought in a horse community a long time ago to be able to ride close to the house, and I used to ride all over the place. Now that traffic has gotten out of control, people acting like jerks towards horses, what are we supposed to do? I'm willing to share and figure out a way to all get along, but geezz the hostility I read in this thread, without anybody offering up any solutions as to how everyone can enjoy the public lands. Maybe see about constructing a separate horse staging area, for big truck and trailer parking, or have specific trails designated for MTB only.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

VanHalen said:


> Do you have any workable solutions for the horse community in your area?


Be responsible for your pet, just like I expect dog owners to do. Be in control of them and clean up after them.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

VanHalen said:


> I guess I can address a few issues that were brought up in this thread: 1. manure. it's just grass.


Then why does a veterinarian use an arm-condom when they stick their arm up a horse's a$$?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

VanHalen said:


> Maybe in your area it's an issue? Where I live there's tons of wildlife and droppings everywhere, deer, wild horses, burros, you name it.


Well, if they are all ****ting on your trail, then that is pretty unique. The problem with horses is that they are ****ting on trail, all the time. The others are more like random chance and pretty rare. At least where I've ridden.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

FrankS29 said:


> As for it being grass, some of them are invasive and non-native grasses that can contain seeds in the manure.


And what does **** attract? Bugs. What do bugs bring? Diseases and other passengers/bugs.


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

I do have solutions: Pick up after your horse, train your horse so that it’s not scared of everything else on the multi-use trails creating dangerous situations for everyone else, if your going to damage the trail because it is wet, stay off it.

If you can’t do these things, don’t bring your horse to these trails.

It’s just like any other pet being allowed on these trail systems. Pick up after it, don’t let it be a nuisance on the trail or damage the trail. If acted the way equestrians do on my trails with my dog, I would be kicked off them in short order.


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## toyotatacomaTRD (Apr 4, 2012)

Jayem said:


> Well, if they are all ****ting on your trail, then that is pretty unique. The problem with horses is that they are ****ting on trail, all the time. The others are more like random chance and pretty rare. At least where I've ridden.


Nothing quite like having it fling up in your face. I've been pretty cold to people on horses ever since that happened to me.


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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

OK so maybe hand out some kind of portable rake/scooper that goes in a saddle bag so that riders can dismount and rake the droppings off the trail? Having more separated trail networks? Are the riders in your area organized, like part of a barn or interest group? Is it possible to organize a sit down to discuss rules and possible options? All I hear is complaining on here, and nobody is asking me any questions of the nature of: would it be possible to do ... instead, or make ... rule?

I can complain all day long about the nuisance of loud children running around unsupervised, or people not picking up their dog ****, hikers with those dumb loud bluetooth speakers, or other horse owners being shitty, or wannabe mtb racers buzzing around without a care of anyone else on the trail, but that doesn't accomplish anything. If nobody is willing to approach anyone and work towards coming up with solutions everyone will just become increasingly hostile and even less willing to hear out the other party.


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## Prognosticator (Feb 15, 2021)

Lol...Arm condom us funny but it's called a sleeve. I know, per my previous post.


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## Prognosticator (Feb 15, 2021)

VanHalen said:


> Maybe in your area it's an issue? Where I live there's tons of wildlife and droppings everywhere, deer, wild horses, burros, you name it. Do you have any workable solutions for the horse community in your area? Maybe ask the equestrian community to put in a few hours of trail maintenance here and there? The way the population around the country is going the horse community seems to always be on the losing side. New houses getting built close to the farm? People will complain, bye bye farm. Trails that were frequented by horses long before hoards of cyclists moved in are now getting bombarded by city people that don't have to commute anymore. I bought in a horse community a long time ago to be able to ride close to the house, and I used to ride all over the place. Now that traffic has gotten out of control, people acting like jerks towards horses, what are we supposed to do? I'm willing to share and figure out a way to all get along, but geezz the hostility I read in this thread, without anybody offering up any solutions as to how everyone can enjoy the public lands. Maybe see about constructing a separate horse staging area, for big truck and trailer parking, or have specific trails designated for MTB only.


This is a serious question: Horses in parades wear those pouches under their tails to catch the manure. Is that impractical in the trail setting? Again, I am just asking.


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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

FrankS29 said:


> I do have solutions: Pick up after your horse, train your horse so that it's not scared of everything else on the multi-use trails creating dangerous situations for everyone else, if your going to damage the trail because it is wet, stay off it.
> 
> If you can't do these things, don't bring your horse to these trails.
> 
> It's just like any other pet being allowed on these trail systems. Pick up after it, don't let it be a nuisance on the trail or damage the trail. If acted the way equestrians do on my trails with my dog, I would be kicked off them in short order.


One of these things is an inherent trait of horses that cannot be changed. There is no such thing as a bomb proof horse. That doesn't mean that the rider is not responsible for its behavior, but it's also the other trail user's responsibility to recognize the danger of approaching a strange horse too closely. It helps to give them room, give the rider room to deal with their horse, and yourself room to stay safe. The rider will need to pull off the trail when possible to give people room to safely pass, but sometimes the horse will be in an awkward spot where the other trail users would have to make some room.

In my experience this has never been an issue, I usually yell out that I'm getting out of the way, or let them know that I don't have room to get out of their way.

I wonder if I'm wasting my time here, it doesn't sound like anyone is actually willing to read the experience from the other side, or even have a discussion about how we can all accommodate each other.


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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

Prognosticator said:


> This is a serious question: Horses in parades wear those pouches under their tails to catch the manure. Is that impractical in the trail setting? Again, I am just asking.


Ahh finally a serious question! Those bags are usually part of a horse and wagon setup, they don't make them where they attach to a single horse. We have lots of horses in our parades here, and the cleanup after is just part of general town cleanup. But then this is also more of a horse community and people aren't that bothered by their presence.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

I think the rake/shovel is a good idea. When your horse craps on the trail. Get off and either pick it up and put it in a bag or get it off the trail. Be courteous to other trail users.

In my area. Horse riders ride on trails that are marked "no horse" by the county and put "no bike" signs on trails for everyone. They have a private park that is 2100 acres and has 70 miles of trails that they have to themselves, but they still have go F up trails they aren't suppose to be on


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Ahhhh the equestrians think their shite doesn't stink  Amusing, and status-quo. FWIW, I ended up getting manure pressed wound the last time I rode a shared trail.. that was fun and pleasant to deal with for a week. It's also just nasty to ride through, or run through and have splattered all over your legs. I used to live around dairy farms, and no one wanted that all over either. 

I totally sympathize with the OP, these are similar issues every place I've worked around trails where equestrians were involved. The observation about it all being $$$$$$$$ are spot on.


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## connolm (Sep 12, 2009)

I don't mind stopping and moving off the trail for equestrians. I've always had pleasant encounters. To me, it is ingrained etiquette such as yielding to uphill riders.

Road apples don't bother me much either. Another trail obstacle - nothing more. Dog crap us way worse than horse dung.

I am a bit shocked by the damage a single horse can do in damp/muddy weather. Sometimes those tracks in the mud will dry and stay that way for months. It can diminish trail flow.

And a single horse can destroy a cross country ski/fatbike track for an entire snow season. I see that often despite signage asking everyone to respect the tracks.

But there's yin & yang. I like that my trails change from month to month... year to year... and I accept horses as part of that evolution. I prefer to keep open access for all on public land.

Private land? That's completely up to the land owner.

I guess I'm old enough now and realize the population density in my area means numerous douchebags persist in every user group.



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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

dysfunction said:


> Ahhhh the equestrians think their shite doesn't stink  Amusing, and status-quo. FWIW, I ended up getting manure pressed wound the last time I rode a shared trail.. that was fun and pleasant to deal with for a week. It's also just nasty to ride through, or run through and have splattered all over your legs. I used to live around dairy farms, and no one wanted that all over either.
> 
> I totally sympathize with the OP, these are similar issues every place I've worked around trails where equestrians were involved. The observation about it all being $$$$$$$$ are spot on.


Lol well heck, I can be a useless dick in this conversation too. You knowingly rode a shared trail and got poop on you. Boo-hoo. Did I solve anything by saying this? Nope. But that's about the level of conversation I see here. Be more constructive, add something of value to the discussion. Where do you see it all being about money? Doesn't everyone get to enjoy public areas equally?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

VanHalen said:


> Lol well heck, I can be a useless dick in this conversation too. You knowingly rode a shared trail and got poop on you. Boo-hoo. Did I solve anything by saying this? Nope. But that's about the level of conversation I see here. Be more constructive, add something of value to the discussion. Where do you see it all being about money? Doesn't everyone get to enjoy public areas equally?


It was literally post #1 

Pick up after your horses ****. Every other animal owner is expected to. Why are you so entitled?

Most of us are tired of your self-entitled **** dude. Like it or not, this is what the equestrian community has done.. across the west. That's constructive.

Pick up your ****, don't wreck the trails by riding when wet. You (plural) don't seem to get that though.


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Equines (horses, ponies, donkeys etc) are not pets, they are classified under the law as "Livestock" in the United States. The law is clear and indisputable.

Pick up after Pets.
Leave it for Livestock.

If you don't think the law is fair to you, feel free to try to change the law. There are no laws mandating owners clean up after livestock. There very much are laws requiring you to pick up after your pets. Nobody promised you life would be fair.

Unless/until the law changes, stop worrying about other folks who are actually following the law, and just do the right thing and pick up after your pets. Is it really so hard?


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

VanHalen said:


> One of these things is an inherent trait of horses that cannot be changed. There is no such thing as a bomb proof horse. That doesn't mean that the rider is not responsible for its behavior, but it's also the other trail user's responsibility to recognize the danger of approaching a strange horse too closely. It helps to give them room, give the rider room to deal with their horse, and yourself room to stay safe. The rider will need to pull off the trail when possible to give people room to safely pass, but sometimes the horse will be in an awkward spot where the other trail users would have to make some room.
> 
> In my experience this has never been an issue, I usually yell out that I'm getting out of the way, or let them know that I don't have room to get out of their way.
> 
> I wonder if I'm wasting my time here, it doesn't sound like anyone is actually willing to read the experience from the other side, or even have a discussion about how we can all accommodate each other.


Of course there is no such thing as a bomb proof animal. But I find it crazy when nearly every horse I come across on trails and paths the owners are telling everyone that they are afraid of bikes/dogs then they bring them to trails loaded with bikes and dogs. Then they start screaming at everyone to accommodate their animal that never should have been put in that situation.

To be clear, I don't in any way blame the horse. I blame crappy owners who make poor decisions for that horse and everyone else in the area.

One trail that is the biggest issue runs along canals. There is nowhere to "get off trail" for either party. I had one horse so scared of bikes that I was about to jump into the canal to make sure I didn't get kicked. I managed to create just enough distance that I could get down trail further and create more distance. Keep in mind, I was standing still straddling my bike...

Another trail further north is a combo of horse track and mountain bike trails. Never once lhad an issue there. Everyone sticks to their designated trail and when you do need to cross paths, plenty of room to give space. The giant piles of crap everywhere suck, but at least it's not on the biking trails and it's not in protected wet lands like the other trail.

It's just frustrating that I'm expected to follow such strict rules about my dog, rules that I think make sense, yet equestrians in this area are not expected to lift a finger or even bring safe, reliable horses out into public.

I've spent countless hours bonding with and training my dog. I have just as much control over him off leash as on leash. I've spent a ton of time going out of my way to socialize him and prepare him for common public situations.

Every. Single. Turd. That has come out of his ass has been picked up by me (or my daughter).

I simply believe that being a responsible pet owner means you take the time to train your animal so that it's reliable in public spaces. Don't set an animal up for failure, especially if it's dangerous to others. If your animal makes a mess, clean it up. If your animal could damage public spaces, keep it away.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable.


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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

dysfunction said:


> It was literally post #1
> 
> Pick up after your horses ****. Every other animal owner is expected to. Why are you so entitled?
> 
> ...


I'm in here asking for help finding solutions. If you saw my first post I, and others, do not ride on wet trails so I can agree that could be a rule in these places. I seem to be in a unique position here where I'm on both sides of the fence, and I was hoping I could use that to provide insight and find some solutions. You make sweeping statements about me without having even read all of my posts, that tells me all I need to know about you too. There's logistical issues with cleaning up manure, you can't really bag it and take it with you, so I proposed offering riders a way to deal with it on the spot. If you want it gone so badly when there are no rules about having to remove it, the least you can do is come up with some ideas of how to make it happen.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

VanHalen said:


> I'm in here asking for help finding solutions. If you saw my first post I, and others, do not ride on wet trails so I can agree that could be a rule in these places. I seem to be in a unique position here where I'm on both sides of the fence, and I was hoping I could use that to provide insight and find some solutions. You make sweeping statements about me without having even read all of my posts, that tells me all I need to know about you too. There's logistical issues with cleaning up manure, you can't really bag it and take it with you, so I proposed offering riders a way to deal with it on the spot. If you want it gone so badly when there are no rules about having to remove it, the least you can do is come up with some ideas of how to make it happen.


Every idea you're going to come up with is going to include horse owners being responsible for their animals crap. They have very consistently been the one group of trail users that want to enjoy the trails but do absolutely nothing to help out.

You could buy them gold plated shovels and rakes with silk saddle bags to put them in. That doesn't mean they're going to use them.


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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

FrankS29 said:


> Of course there is no such thing as a bomb proof animal. But I find it crazy when nearly every horse I come across on trails and paths the owners are telling everyone that they are afraid of bikes/dogs then they bring them to trails loaded with bikes and dogs. Then they start screaming at everyone to accommodate their animal that never should have been put in that situation.
> 
> To be clear, I don't in any way blame the horse. I blame crappy owners who make poor decisions for that horse and everyone else in the area.
> 
> ...


Not unreasonable at all. However, I fear for the day I run into someone with an out of control (or unleashed) dog. And I do see lots of other people not picking up after their dogs. There will always be an annoyingly large number of people who are just stupid and will not follow rules. I'm also afraid that I do not belong to that particular group of horse owners that everyone seems to be having issues with (dare I say city folk?), but that certainly doesn't mean there can't be some rules about this. IMO the narrow canal trail you speak of is just not a safe trail for multi-purpose. There needs to be accommodations for everyone to safely pass, so maybe there can be an alternate route for horses? Lots of people here are involved with the local parks and forests, there can be ways to evaluate if a trail can create a dangerous situation in certain encounters.


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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Every idea you're going to come up with is going to include horse owners being responsible for their animals crap. They have very consistently been the one group of trail users that want to enjoy the trails but do absolutely nothing to help out.
> 
> You could buy them gold plated shovels and rakes with silk saddle bags to put them in. That doesn't mean they're going to use them.


If they don't want to contribute to keeping their trail network nice for everyone to use then they should not be allowed to use it.

I belong to another group that is known for causing a lot of issues, and participate in the seasonal clean up days to ensure that we don't get restricted from using that area for our hobby. I perfectly understand why people want it shut down, so far we've been able to keep it under control, but boy are people stupid.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

VanHalen said:


> I'm in here asking for help finding solutions. If you saw my first post I, and others, do not ride on wet trails so I can agree that could be a rule in these places. I seem to be in a unique position here where I'm on both sides of the fence, and I was hoping I could use that to provide insight and find some solutions. You make sweeping statements about me without having even read all of my posts, that tells me all I need to know about you too. There's logistical issues with cleaning up manure, you can't really bag it and take it with you, so I proposed offering riders a way to deal with it on the spot. If you want it gone so badly when there are no rules about having to remove it, the least you can do is come up with some ideas of how to make it happen.


A horse that is carrying a person can certainly carry a bag with crap in it. The only issues is that the rider doesn't want to. Get off your horse, pull out you foldable shovel, scoop the crap into a bag or two, put they bag across the horse and get back on


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## abegold (Jan 30, 2004)

1spd1way said:


> Just fricking venting...
> I am getting tired of turning the other cheek when dealing with the 1600 lb. beasts and their 150 lb owners.
> We volunteer at our local park doing maintenance on the multi-use trails. For 20+ years our time, money and love of the park has never been questioned or debated, but once again, the equine crowd could not wait for things to dry out.
> Each year we appeal to the horse crowd, park director, park ranger and the board of members to restrict the use of the beast until the trails dry out (June 15?).
> ...


About 25 years ago I flew to Colorado to ski. I met a lady who spent $30,000 a month on her sport riding horse. Many horse people have big very checkbooks. Money talks, losing battle.


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

In nearly every state there is a recognition under the law of the "Inherent risks of equine activities". Any attempt to try and equate training dogs or riding a bike to being the same a riding a horse flies directly in the face of decades of legislation. 

It might sound really nice and logical here in an echo chamber to demand perfectly trained horses on trails, but they are not treated equally under the law. It is recognized under the law that training can never, ever, remove the inherent risk of equine activities.

Try to take that argument to a public land management meeting to try and demand perfectly trained horses so you can ride your bike without having to be bothered to stop for a few seconds, and it is going to fall flat on its face.


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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

Bacon Fat said:


> A horse that is carrying a person can certainly carry a bag with crap in it. The only issues is that the rider doesn't want to. Get off your horse, pull out you foldable shovel, scoop the crap into a bag or two, put they bag across the horse and get back on


I wish it was that easy, or me and many others would have been doing this already. It's surprisingly difficult to properly secure things onto a horse/saddle, there's a LOT of moving parts. There's no good way to attach a trash bag anywhere, and it would just rip from all the moving around. You'd have to come up with a high capacity bag system that attaches securely to both an english and western saddle. The horse can carry the weight no problem, the gear and methods of securing are the problem. If someone rides in a recreational english saddle those aren't even designed to strap a load onto and carrying stuff around. I'm not just making excuses when saying that the logistics are pretty difficult.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

VanHalen said:


> Ahh finally a serious question! Those bags are usually part of a horse and wagon setup, they don't make them where they attach to a single horse. We have lots of horses in our parades here, and the cleanup after is just part of general town cleanup. But then this is also more of a horse community and people aren't that bothered by their presence.


Pretty sure ive seen them on single horses, like police horses.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

VanHalen said:


> If they don't want to contribute to keeping their trail network nice for everyone to use then they should not be allowed to use it.
> 
> I belong to another group that is known for causing a lot of issues, and participate in the seasonal clean up days to ensure that we don't get restricted from using that area for our hobby. I perfectly understand why people want it shut down, so far we've been able to keep it under control, but boy are people stupid.


I get what you're saying, but we are talking in circles at this point. We all agree they shouldn't be allowed to use it if they are going to act the way the act. Like OP said in the very first post, most land managers tell people to just live with it because they donate money. They basically buy the ability to not have to pick up after themselves.


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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

r-rocket said:


> In nearly every state there is a recognition under the law of the "Inherent risks of equine activities". Any attempt to try and equate training dogs or riding a bike to being the same a riding a horse flies directly in the face of decades of legislation.
> 
> It might sound really nice and logical here in an echo chamber to demand perfectly trained horses on trails, but they are not treated equally under the law. It is recognized under the law that training can never, ever, remove the inherent risk of equine activities.
> 
> Try to take that argument to a public land management meeting to try and demand perfectly trained horses so you can ride your bike without having to be bothered to stop for a few seconds, and it is going to fall flat on its face.


While you are absolutely correct I do think there are ways for everyone to be more considerate, and a discussion can be had about reasonable expectations. While this is the law currently, this way of life is on the decline. My kids get to grow up with horses and enjoy them, but I highly doubt they'll ever be able to have horses of their own, due to increasingly restrictive living areas.


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

dysfunction said:


> . FWIW, I ended up getting manure pressed wound the last time I rode a shared trail.. that was fun and pleasant to deal with for a week. I


Man,i had one of those horse $hit ground into a raspberry/trail rash deals - cellulitis, my leg dang near bout fell off. Took 2 weeks on heavy antibiotics to get it under control.


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

I’m being serious here, and not being a smart ass.

If the logistics are so difficult to make sure horses are cleaned up after, then why allow them?

If any other user group created the issues and mess that a horse does, they would be banned.

So, honestly, why should they be allowed on mixed use trails then?


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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I get what you're saying, but we are talking in circles at this point. We all agree they shouldn't be allowed to use it if they are going to act the way the act. Like OP said in the very first post, most land managers tell people to just live with it because they donate money. They basically buy the ability to not have to pick up after themselves.


True, I am the one equestrian voice on a mountain bike forum, so it's to be expected. The big difference for me is in my area the horse owners are actually not wealthy at all, at least not big bank account wealthy, maybe just wealthy in assets? So if an interest group for cyclists came in with big money we'd definitely lose. Those people spending 30k a month on fancy horses are not in my part of the country lol, the hills have eyes here.


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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

FrankS29 said:


> I'm being serious here, and not being a smart ass.
> 
> If the logistics are so difficult to make sure horses are cleaned up after, then why allow them?
> 
> ...


So you'd like to see the trail systems separated more, I don't see the problem with that. Have trails for bike things and trails for horse things. I don't know if there's room for that everywhere, but it's a potential solution in areas where there's a lot of complaints.


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## 908811 (Apr 7, 2021)

There are some pretty selfish humans where we live in Australia too. Clear rules they must remove horse manure and no dogs off leash. They ignore both.

Every horse rider, dog off leash terrifying my son literally completely out of control, They are on a horse how do they stop the dog mauling native wildlife to death (Koalas, Possums). They can't, They don't care. Where I live the "farmers"/wine growers are all heavily subsidized by city tax payers. They literally get paid to run failing non profitable restaurants and wineries by our taxes. No wonder they have time to maintain a horse for fun.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

VanHalen said:


> I wish it was that easy, or me and many others would have been doing this already. It's surprisingly difficult to properly secure things onto a horse/saddle, there's a LOT of moving parts. There's no good way to attach a trash bag anywhere, and it would just rip from all the moving around. You'd have to come up with a high capacity bag system that attaches securely to both an english and western saddle. The horse can carry the weight no problem, the gear and methods of securing are the problem. If someone rides in a recreational english saddle those aren't even designed to strap a load onto and carrying stuff around. I'm not just making excuses when saying that the logistics are pretty difficult.


People have been carrying bags on horses since they could ride them. I better they would come up with a great design if it meant you could keep riding on public trails. Until then, just use saddlebags.



__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/27092035245274830/


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## rustie (Apr 21, 2010)

Now now folks........nothing wrong with horse **** (aka Manure)......it makes excellent compost, only being half digested, especially for corn.
It is true that modern "pleasure horses" are usually unfit, poorly trained and barely socialized. Like some of my friends, I fear.
Follow all the advice given here when meeting trail horses, especially to keep talking to horse and rider in dulcet tones.......calmes everyone down!
The real problem for us MTBers are those steel shod hooves and the way horses go up steep banks: unlike more intelligent mules, horses cannot pick their way carefully.....they have to sort of jump up......and those hooves act like a backhoe digger. Very bad news for dirt berms and careful rock work.
My own opinion is that horses and bikes simply cannot share technical trails......anything above a simple flat tread. Not only is the erosion too much (for bikes) but horses also hate the tight switchbacks that bikes need for climbing (so too do hikers, who end up shortcutting the turns).
In this day and age we need bike-specific trails!
It's not really worth working on "shared" trails of this level.
Intelligent hikers can manage on some bike trails (except fast Downhills of course) and are hard to dissuade anyway.
This means more political savvy and determination at the planning level but it's the only way to get really Sustainable trails.
..........and some peace.


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

VanHalen said:


> While you are absolutely correct I do think there are ways for everyone to be more considerate, and a discussion can be had about reasonable expectations. While this is the law currently, this way of life is on the decline. My kids get to grow up with horses and enjoy them, but I highly doubt they'll ever be able to have horses of their own, due to increasingly restrictive living areas.


I agree there are constructive ways for everyone to be more considerate on more and more crowded trails. But a constructive conversation has to start with everyone recognizing the realities today.

That's not going to happen if hikers/dog walkers and cyclists start with false expectations that livestock (horse) owners are currently under any legal obligation to remove their scat. Or if hikers/dog walkers and cyclists don't respect the rules of the trail for yielding to horses.

That's just going to go straight downhill at every single public use meeting and backfire on cyclist. We're just going to get painted even further into being seen as that inconsiderate "Strava D-ck" or self-centered "Downhill Brah" cliche.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

VanHalen said:


> I wish it was that easy, or me and many others would have been doing this already. It's surprisingly difficult to properly secure things onto a horse/saddle, there's a LOT of moving parts. There's no good way to attach a trash bag anywhere, and it would just rip from all the moving around. You'd have to come up with a high capacity bag system that attaches securely to both an english and western saddle. The horse can carry the weight no problem, the gear and methods of securing are the problem. If someone rides in a recreational english saddle those aren't even designed to strap a load onto and carrying stuff around. I'm not just making excuses when saying that the logistics are pretty difficult.


Bam. It is that easy.









Catch It! Manure Bag - Buckeye Blanket | Working Horse Tack


Buckeye Blanket Catch It! Manure Bag at Working Horse Tack in Ohio. Manure catchers for saddle horses and harness horses



www.workinghorsetack.com


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

r-rocket said:


> I agree there are constructive ways for everyone to be more considerate on more and more crowded trails. But a constructive conversation has to start with everyone recognizing the realities today.
> 
> That's not going to happen if hikers/dog walkers and cyclists start with false expectations that livestock (horse) owners are currently under any legal obligation to remove their scat. Or if hikers/dog walkers and cyclists don't respect the rules of the trail for yielding to horses.
> 
> That's just going to go straight downhill at every single public use meeting and backfire on cyclist. We're just going to get painted even further into being seen as that inconsiderate "Strava D-ck" or self-centered "Downhill Brah" cliche.


I'm not legally obligated to to yield, just like they aren't legally obligated to pick up their crap. But I do, so maybe horse people could, you know, actually do something considerate to others


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## Yo yo ma (May 11, 2021)

toyotatacomaTRD said:


> They are a very difficult group. There was a horse poker run on state land where I ride a few weeks back. I'm guessing 200 or so. I stopped and pulled over each time I came across them. One lady freaked out because apparently I didn't stop enough in front of them. Said her horse is not used to bikes and I will probably want to head home because they have an event today. I was really taken back by her brass comment that she thought I shouldn't be on public land just because they were out there. I told her I wouldn't bring a skittish horse here on a weekend and took off before they could get moving again. I haven't been back to that area yet, but sure it's unrideable and completely littered with droppings.


I would have switched around using her nasty logic and asked her if she would go home if there was a bike race to see how she would respond. Or i would have said my bike is not used to horses.


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## VanHalen (Apr 1, 2009)

r-rocket said:


> I agree there are constructive ways for everyone to be more considerate on more and more crowded trails. But a constructive conversation has to start with everyone recognizing the realities today.
> 
> That's not going to happen if hikers/dog walkers and cyclists start with false expectations that livestock (horse) owners are currently under any legal obligation to remove their scat. Or if hikers/dog walkers and cyclists don't respect the rules of the trail for yielding to horses.
> 
> That's just going to go straight downhill at every single public use meeting and backfire on cyclist. We're just going to get painted even further into being seen as that inconsiderate "Strava D-ck" or self-centered "Downhill Brah" cliche.


I was appalled when first reading this thread, when people were actually suggesting to mess with equestrian's vehicles and property to 'teach them a lesson' or to 'dissuade them from ever coming there again', while everyone had equal rights to be there. Are there ten year olds posting on this forum? It just makes me think they deserve each other out there, prissy cyclists and prissy horse people. If nobody wants to give an inch it's just an accident waiting to happen with high density recreation areas and then nobody wins, it'll just get shut down.


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Bacon Fat said:


> I'm not legally obligated to to yield, just like they aren't legally obligated to pick up their crap. But I do, so maybe horse people could, you know, actually do something considerate to others


When yielding rules are posted as a rule on the trail, it is a condition that the land manager has placed on you using the trail. Like any other rule of the trail, the land manager can ask you to leave if you do not follow the rules of the trail. You are very much obligated to follow ALL the rules set forth by land managers if you choose to use the trail.

If you don't like any of the posted rules of the trail, you are free to choose not to use that trail.

This trend towards pretending the rules are optional just because there are no fines or jail time for violating them is wrong. It is still a condition imposed by the land manager any time the yield rules are posted and you are obligated to follow any posted yield rules.

Here is the difference:

1) Livestock (including horses) pooping on the trail: No laws against it, no rules against it.
2) Yielding per any posted yield signs: No laws against it in most states, but it is a posted rule that is a condition of using the trail on many trails. It is required when posted.
3) Picking up after dogs/pets. There are laws in many places that carry penalties. It is also a rule on many trails that is a condition of using the trail.

Maybe they could do more, but they currently aren't obligated by either law or by trail rules. You have to realize that you would be imposing a NEW rule or law on someone else for YOUR benefit. If you can sell that new change , give it your best effort. Unless/until you can pull that off, you are wrong to expect owners to pick up Livestock dung, any more than Ranchers would be expected to pick up cow dung off of trails where they have cows grazing.


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

toyotatacomaTRD said:


> They are a very difficult group. There was a horse poker run on state land where I ride a few weeks back. I'm guessing 200 or so. I stopped and pulled over each time I came across them. One lady freaked out because apparently I didn't stop enough in front of them. Said her horse is not used to bikes and I will probably want to head home because they have an event today. I was really taken back by her brass comment that she thought I shouldn't be on public land just because they were out there. I told her I wouldn't bring a skittish horse here on a weekend and took off before they could get moving again. I haven't been back to that area yet, but sure it's unrideable and completely littered with droppings.


My local bike races organized by a recognized event group that does basically the same thing as the horse poker run event you are talking about.

The organizers can't actually legally close and block other users from using the trail at the same time as the races. So they post signs at intersection announcing the bike race and the time the race will happen.

Every once and a while there is some jerk who insists they are going to trail run right in the middle of the race course. But most other users simply give us the space and let us have our planned, sanctioned, recognized events on multiuse trails. Not sure what your are outraged about? Let them do their poker run and ride elsewhere for a day.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

r-rocket said:


> When yielding rules are posted as a rule on the trail, it is a condition that the land manager has placed on you using the trail. Like any other rule of the trail, the land manager can ask you to leave if you do not follow the rules of the trail. You are very much obligated to follow ALL the rules set forth by land managers if you choose to use the trail.
> 
> If you don't like any of the posted rules of the trail, you are free to choose not to use that trail.
> 
> ...


Depends on who posts the sign. Local mtn. bike group posts the signs here, Not the land manager. Yielding is not required, but everyone does it because it benefits the other users. Horse people can't grasp this concept


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## Rockadile (Jun 27, 2005)

I don’t even care if they just clear the manure off the trail instead of carrying it out with them. Huge piles on the middle of the trail, however, just smack with entitlement. Clearly it’s not as safe as many horse owners like you to believe if people are getting infections from it.


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## toyotatacomaTRD (Apr 4, 2012)

r-rocket said:


> My local bike races organized by a recognized event group that does basically the same thing as the horse poker run event you are talking about.
> 
> The organizers can't actually legally close and block other users from using the trail at the same time as the races. So they post signs at intersection announcing the bike race and the time the race will happen.
> 
> Every once and a while there is some jerk who insists they are going to trail run right in the middle of the race course. But most other users simply give us the space and let us have our planned, sanctioned, recognized events on multiuse trails. Not sure what your are outraged about? Let them do their poker run and ride elsewhere for a day.


There is literally 40 different places to enter this particular area if not more, how I would have known what was going on prior coming across them is beyond me. I tried to avoid them best I could but I had no idea their route as I entered on opposite ends and was coming at them.


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## ExhaustedDog (Jan 5, 2021)

Dog owners have to pick up after their dogs. Horse owners should have to pick after their horses. Literally making them get off the high horse they rode in on.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

127.0.0.1 said:


> I think every 1.9 months another thread about this comes up, dries up slowly....then we get two weeks vacation...then another horse thread....forever....


Wouldn't that be more like every 1.6 weeks?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

r-rocket said:


> When yielding rules are posted as a rule on the trail, it is a condition that the land manager has placed on you using the trail. Like any other rule of the trail, the land manager can ask you to leave if you do not follow the rules of the trail. You are very much obligated to follow ALL the rules set forth by land managers if you choose to use the trail.
> 
> If you don't like any of the posted rules of the trail, you are free to choose not to use that trail.
> 
> ...


Quite literally, if the area has "leave no trace" posted, then yes, there are rules against leaving your sh*t.

As far as laws, what you say is probably not true regarding yielding and conditions of using the trail in most cases. If a rule is to be enforced, it will have to be code somewhere. Municipality or state code. While I'm relatively certain that some areas do code park rules, I'd guess that most do not. Every time I've seen anything tied to enforcement, it's been tied to a code, like cleaning up after the dog, leash rules, etc.


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## bow53 (Jan 8, 2021)

I just get concerned when I see the poop on the downhill only trails. Yes the poo would be annoying but what if I came screaming fast around the corner and hit your horse or scared it and it bucked of the rider. Luckily this hasn't happened and I hope it never will


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Jayem said:


> Quite literally, if the area has "leave no trace" posted, then yes, there are rules against leaving your sh*t.
> 
> As far as laws, what you say is probably not true regarding yielding and conditions of using the trail in most cases. If a rule is to be enforced, it will have to be code somewhere. Municipality or state code. While I'm relatively certain that some areas do code park rules, I'd guess that most do not. Every time I've seen anything tied to enforcement, it's been tied to a code, like cleaning up after the dog, leash rules, etc.


"Leave No Trace" absolutely does NOT require horse owners to pack out their horse's dung or clear it from trails. That is incorrect. The only guidance is to spread out the horse dung to help decomposition, and to try to clear it from established campsites after hitching a horse for extended time.

The Forest Service guidance on this is very clearly documented. The Forest Service is who pioneered "Leave No Trace", so they are the lead



https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd526368.pdf



You are also wrong about trail rules having to be backed by a specific statute or code for every single rule. The statutory rule making authority (beyond what is unlawful by statute) is granted with whatever "Enabling Act" gave the land manager authority to manage that land in the first place. Every single "Enabling Act" is unique, so it will all depend on each piece of land.

For example, one of our local trails has directional rules for travel and day of use restrictions. There is no specific statute making it illegal under penalty of fine or imprisonment to go the wrong way. But this is very much a condition you must agree to if you choose to use that trail. The land manager has the authority under the "Enabling Act" to set those rules without having to go to the legislature every single time he wants to tweak the rules.

Land Managers aren't out there to bust people, they just want as many people to be able to get out and enjoy the trails. They are trying to help you have places to ride. Why try to make it hard for them?

If you are going to break the rules, at least own being wrong and be willing to face the consequences.


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## Serfsale1 (May 11, 2021)

milehi said:


> Don't yield...when riding.


Ur a Tool n Should b BUCKED.


slapheadmofo said:


> People who have a horse that reacts as described have no business taking it out in public.
> No different than having a shitty, poorly trained dog and letting it run around without a leash.


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## Serfsale1 (May 11, 2021)

Rock said:


> "the donations ($$) of the horse crowd out weighs the inconvenience of damage and turd".
> 
> Google "How the world works".


Hmmmmm as riders of Mtn Bikes. Not Ebikes...........

We hav to remember on the Original Triangle we r bottom feeders. Yes bikes r at the bottom of the upside down Triangle. That thing u pass while pulling down ur Goggles n tryin for a PR!!! Hmmm u know that is u. YES hoofs cause more damage, But ur
skidding ain't helpin either...... Relax, pedal back up reset n bomb. Never go faster than u can brake/stop. Hikers appreciate this too. WAIT other drivers do too.


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## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

Thanks for the comments everyone. and thanks for letting me vent.
I really don't have a problem with the beasts. They are a user group in our small park that really needs more trail users.
My problem is they cannot wait for the trails to dry before post-holing (both winter and summer) the wet, soft spots and their refusal to clean up after themselves. I asked the administration to curtail horse riding before June 15 and after October 15 to preserve the system. Also to go back once a week with an iron rake to move the manure off the side of the trail..... all I got was crickets. 
I also get off my bike when encountering the animal and it's rider. Put my body between my bike and the horse (as advised by a good horse owner). I have respect for the human and beast and don't wish harm to either.
I will now approach the board members to designate certain trails for each activity in the park. the single track should be off limits to horses. Maybe that will be a start.


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## Rock (Jan 13, 2004)

Serfsale1 said:


> Hmmmmm as riders of Mtn Bikes. Not Ebikes...........
> 
> We hav to remember on the Original Triangle we r bottom feeders. Yes bikes r at the bottom of the upside down Triangle. That thing u pass while pulling down ur Goggles n tryin for a PR!!! Hmmm u know that is u. YES hoofs cause more damage, But ur
> skidding ain't helpin either...... Relax, pedal back up reset n bomb. Never go faster than u can brake/stop. Hikers appreciate this too. WAIT other drivers do too.


I am not certain if this is directed towards me specifically or the general audience, but, wow, that was quite a word mash.

You really nailed your second post on this forum. I look forward to your future contributions.


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## IPA Rider (Aug 24, 2008)

I think its telling that the horse-guy on here paints himself as one of the uber responsible equestrians, and keeps saying he just wants to come together to find workable solutions, but doesn't seem open to picking up after his animal. 

THAT ATTITUDE (and the horsesh!t) is the problem..."Let's just find a workable solution that doesn't require me and others like me to take responsibility for the problems we cause."


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## hoolie (Sep 17, 2010)

You can always bag your own manure at home, in the bathroom. Use a rubber glove and use it to leave them a note on their trailer “see how this feels? keep manure of trail”.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

VanHalen said:


> Doesn't everyone get to enjoy public areas equally?


No, not even close.

How many moto riders do you typically run across enjoying sharing the trails while you're out on your horse or mtb?


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

is this thread done yet ?
.
.
.
how about now ?

ffs....


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

CEB said:


> Fast forward to today, they don't see mtbikers as anything less than a predator that wants to eat them.


I would imagine that hikers feel the same way when they see Picard approaching them on a trail.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I thought this thread was about centaurs.


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## mike256 (Sep 4, 2020)

attention_to_huh said:


> There are some pretty selfish humans where we live in Australia too. Clear rules they must remove horse manure and no dogs off leash. They ignore both.
> 
> Every horse rider, dog off leash terrifying my son literally completely out of control, They are on a horse how do they stop the dog mauling native wildlife to death (Koalas, Possums). They can't, They don't care. Where I live the "farmers"/wine growers are all heavily subsidized by city tax payers. They literally get paid to run failing non profitable restaurants and wineries by our taxes. No wonder they have time to maintain a horse for fun.


i always love seeing them on the news crying poor with a somber look on their face with a 120k cruiser in the background. The sense of entitlement of people that inherited their farmland is significant.


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## mike256 (Sep 4, 2020)

VanHalen said:


> I was appalled when first reading this thread, when people were actually suggesting to mess with equestrian's vehicles and property to 'teach them a lesson' or to 'dissuade them from ever coming there again', while everyone had equal rights to be there. Are there ten year olds posting on this forum? It just makes me think they deserve each other out there, prissy cyclists and prissy horse people. If nobody wants to give an inch it's just an accident waiting to happen with high density recreation areas and then nobody wins, it'll just get shut down.


So did you order one of those poop bags posted earlier since you were complaining nobody was coming up with a solution and that no bag exists? Or do you prefer to just keep doing nothing and telling others to do more?


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## 908811 (Apr 7, 2021)

mike256 said:


> i always love seeing them on the news crying poor with a somber look on their face with a 120k cruiser in the background. The sense of entitlement of people that inherited their farmland is significant.


Yeah most of the "farmers" around here have no crops or animals. At best 10-15 sheep. They are farming land valuation. The whole Wine industry being kept alive by tax payers and subsidies while the owners drive around in land rovers makes me sick. Australia is a corrupt sewer. Sorry but it is. Mates deals on literally everything. Every single government expense is pork barrelled where it can be.

We went to one for our anniversary in S.Australias "the cube", That had received millions in government grants. They served us Duck fat despite my wife being Hindu vegetarian (then lied and said it was pine nuts), Seated us 45 minutes late for our booking. Served all our dishes late. Cleaned up the restaurant noisily around us while we tried to enjoy our last two courses (such fine dining!), As that wasn't enough encouragement to get rid of us they lined up at the exit staring, Like we were the ones who were late. Half the food was cold that shouldn't be too. (Their other returaunt is also useless , serves cold dry chicken for $35.)

Then overcharged us a public holiday % increase of %25 on a $500 meal after all of the above on a non pulic holiday, forcing me to say ehum, This $500 meal is $125 too expensive. How much tax payer money did this restaurant take to treat the people who paid for it like that?

_*The Cube*_* was built with the help of $2 million State Government *_*funding*_

They are both some of the highest trip advisor rated restaurants in S.A. . Fucking virtue signalers using restaurant reviews to show how nice they are. People like me have so much salt to spray at them I cant even comprehend writing a non expletive review. I am so sick of people using restaurant reviews as social media look at me I'm nice posts.

_Wait what were we talking about again?_


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## connolm (Sep 12, 2009)

Our condo building sewer line collapsed at the city connection. Took 14 days to repair. I had 14 bags of motivation/education for trail poopers. Ha! Neighbors were teasing each other about having such big dogs!

C'mon. Honestly. Would love if horse poop was our real biggest problem with access issues. I still maintain that dog poop is way WAY worse...

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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

Where I live now manure is not and issue. It’s the desert southwest and by the next day, if not in the afternoon, it’s totally dry and breaks apart quickly over the next few days. The Midwest however, OMG. The horses would post hole the trail, then piss and crap in them. Because of the precipitation and humidity, these multiple small basins would be present for days until the heat of summer would dry them up. And I don’t gross out easily. 


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

mike256 said:


> i always love seeing them on the news crying poor with a somber look on their face with a 120k cruiser in the background. The sense of entitlement of people that inherited their farmland is significant.


The last administration basically paid welfare to farmers that ***** about others being on welfare. Oh yeah, they "inherited" the land from the natives. Actually, I want American farmers to survive, but the hypocrisy that they don't benefit from socialism annoys me. And many use illegals, the new slaves/indentured servants, to survive because many Americans feel that type of work is beneath them.

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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

People would rather work fast food for$15/hour instead of having to slave away in a field for less.

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## Joshhuber2 (May 2, 2021)

A real trail horse will never spook. My horse could be around explosions. He was expensive though and gets ridden by someone every day.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Bacon Fat said:


> A horse that is carrying a person can certainly carry a bag with crap in it. The only issues is that the rider doesn't want to. Get off your horse, pull out you foldable shovel, scoop the crap into a bag or two, put they bag across the horse and get back on


Sorry I'm late to the party. As an alternative, I'd recommend just raking the stuff off the trail tread. It would be much quicker and easier. The smell isn't too bad and it composts away fairly quickly.


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