# e-Fatties - please give me your design thoughts...



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

So...I was contacted by a major, high end bike manufacturer who had seen my posts about my pair of Norco Bigfoot VLT 1s. I will apparently be involved to some degree in the design and manufacture of their yet to be manufactured e-fatties.

Let’s be clear - I’m not delusional. I expect whatever contributions I am able to make will be infinitesimal in the grand scheme of things. Nonetheless, it’s exciting, and certainly a privilege for me to even be contacted.

I have amassed quite a few miles on mine, and have my own ideas about things. That said, to the extent any of you have any thoughts about geo, battery, drivetrain, suspension/non-suspension, brakes, dropper, tires, motor or anything else, please let me know. Just looking for any further ideas. I want to make sure I am prepared as much as I can be.

My first meeting is on January 6. Super stoked and excited to talk about anything with anyone that is biking related.

Thanks.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Cool man. Don’t worry about it, I’m a brand ambassador for Captain Morgan, I tell them to lower prices and increase volume! Jk, your bikes are badass. I wish I had experience on an e-fattie. I no longer live in the snowbelt. Just think of your dislikes of your bikes.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Gutch said:


> Cool man. Don’t worry about it, I’m a brand ambassador for Captain Morgan, I tell them to lower prices and increase volume! Jk, your bikes are badass. I wish I had experience on an e-fattie. I no longer live in the snowbelt. Just think of your dislikes of your bikes.


Nice. Tell Captain Morgan to bring back the canon ball flavors. The fat ebikes should have onboard tire pressure monitoring reported right to their dashboards.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

ZX11 said:


> Nice. Tell Captain Morgan to bring back the canon ball flavors. The fat ebikes should have onboard tire pressure monitoring reported right to their dashboards.
> View attachment 1963482


…and heated grips. Heated saddles would be a nice touch too.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

…removable battery for indoor heated charging.

And no $hit components.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mtnbkrmike said:


> …and heated grips. Heated saddles would be a nice touch too.
> [/QUOTE


Heated grips for sure, Integrated headlight maybe? Never tried the cannonball flavors..


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Gutch said:


> Heated grips for sure, Integrated headlight maybe? Never tried the cannonball flavors..


Not crazy about the lights idea. I am very picky about my lighting. I bet most are. I wouldn’t be interested in whatever crap they would install. 

As for removable batteries…

Being in Canada with an unheated, uninsulated garage, I have to wrap car battery warmers around the downtube to charge the bikes. I would much prefer to remove the batteries and charge and store them indoors. It’s been as cold as minus 42 here, the last few weeks. Removable battery and heated grips/saddle would be good FOR ME. Not sure about the rest of the market though.


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## pushinpixels (Jul 4, 2007)

It seems like very few fat bike manufactures are updating their geometry. Or just dropping their fatties altogether. 

After a summer season of riding long, low, slack, I'm sold on this concept. I don't know how much of those design values will work with Fat bikes. Headtube angles seem to be a contentious topic. They range from 67 on the RM Blizzard to 69 on the Norco Bigfoot. The argument seems to be floppier handling at low speed in the snow the slacker you get. Some say the fatbike will handle more like a regular hardtail if HT is slackened. 

The Pole Taiga fatbike had wild geometry. Too bad it was cancelled so quickly. It seemed to excel on fresh powder with the floatation of 100mm 26" rims and a crazy long wheelbase. 
I've ordered a more conventional Norco Bigfoot this year to replace my old Specialized Fatboy. It should work well for the groomed conditions I usually ride in.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

pushinpixels said:


> It seems like very few fat bike manufactures are updating their geometry. Or just dropping their fatties altogether.
> 
> After a summer season of riding long, low, slack, I'm sold on this concept. I don't know how much of those design values will work with Fat bikes. Headtube angles seem to be a contentious topic. They range from 67 on the RM Blizzard to 69 on the Norco Bigfoot. The argument seems to be floppier handling at low speed in the snow the slacker you get. Some say the fatbike will handle more like a regular hardtail if HT is slackened.
> 
> ...


My Bigfoot VLT 1s are 68 degrees. But point taken. Thank you.


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## pushinpixels (Jul 4, 2007)

Yeah the VLT's geo is a little different to the analog Bigfoot for whatever reason. Your a little bit longer, lower and slacker  
From the research I've done, Wyatt fat bikes are getting lots of kudos for modern, well thought out progressive geometry. The value and parts spec of the Bigfoot 1 was the deciding factor for me.

If I had the funds, a full suspension e-fattie would be a dream ride. I hope Foes does this to their Mutz.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Al wheel drive!


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

crank1979 said:


> Al wheel drive!


Simpler than you might think? Put a 135mm rear Bafang G series geared hub in the front wheel and pedal away to your hearts content in the rear. Presto. 

Want just a regular fat bike with no motor? Swap out the front wheel and leave the battery at home. Double presto. Or better yet put one on a sus fork and just swap out forks....https://www.amazon.com/Fork-Travel-Aluminum-Alloy-Material-Mountain/dp/B07LDD6GZQ/ref=pd_lpo_2?pd_rd_i=B07LDCHZPV&psc=1

Cost of conversion, under a grand.

HNY boys....


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

mtnbkrmike said:


> So...I was contacted by a major, high end bike manufacturer who had seen my posts about my pair of Norco Bigfoot VLT 1s. I will apparently be involved to some degree in the design and manufacture of their yet to be manufactured e-fatties.
> 
> Let’s be clear - I’m not delusional. I expect whatever contributions I am able to make will be infinitesimal in the grand scheme of things. Nonetheless, it’s exciting, and certainly a privilege for me to even be contacted.
> 
> ...


Optional 'snow and gravel' wheels and tires on offer - example would be 26 x 4.0 snow and 27.5 x 3.0 gravel, without messing up the geo and bb height etc


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I see quite a few E-fattys, but they aren't designed with true-fat-bike travel as a goal most of the time IMO. Being able to take at least 4.8x26 and 4.5x27.5, but that creates quite the disparity if you use a smaller 26" tire. Adjustable dropouts, at least dual position, are a good way around this. The consideration of tire size though seems to be the biggest issue, design it first as a fat-bike IMO.


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## kntr (Jan 25, 2004)

Full suspension, 900wh removable battery, Mastodon ext 150, room for 26x5.0 or 27.5x4.0. They could sell it with a summer 29er wheel set too. One bike with a few wheel sets would be awesome. I have a Mutz with 26x4.0, 27.5x3.0 and 29x2.6. 3 bikes in one.

Something exactly like the Maxx Huraxdax or Foes Fat e-ticket with a bigger battery.

DH brakes to keep up with weight.

Air or spring dropper post, so it works when its cold.

Transferable 2 year warranty like Specialized does with their ebikes.

I ride year around and have ridden a fat bike for a long time and I really want a full suspension fatty ebike.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

If i can express my view they should offer a basic affordable EFatbike.
No dropper, about 550W, 10S. Honestly a 11/46 cassette is plenty.
Unless they offer a lower price they loose customers to the many very affordable options.
Most of todays bike are too long, go shorter.
PS. Why not offer a 29+ it would be a great all seasons practical toy.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. My first call is tomorrow. I am super excited. I hope I don’t disappoint these guys.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

kntr said:


> Full suspension, 900wh removable battery, Mastodon ext 150, room for 26x5.0 or 27.5x4.0. They could sell it with a summer 29er wheel set too. One bike with a few wheel sets would be awesome. I have a Mutz with 26x4.0, 27.5x3.0 and 29x2.6. 3 bikes in one.
> 
> Something exactly like the Maxx Huraxdax or Foes Fat e-ticket with a bigger battery.
> 
> ...


Did you jump the gap? Lol!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Thanks everyone for the suggestions. My first call is tomorrow. I am super excited. I hope I don’t disappoint these guys.


You won’t, you’re not on their payroll, are you?


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Gutch said:


> You won’t, you’re not on their payroll, are you?


No. I’m getting nothing. But there’s a long list of important sounding people on this call. I hope it’s not a waste of time for them. Chief Product Officer, Director of R&D Chassis, Director of R&D Powertrain, R&D Engineer, Product Line Manager, Director of Marketing, and Brand Manager. I’m a little nervous actually.


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## Jon A (Jan 4, 2021)

As you know, there are many niches within the realm of fatbikes. What type are they aiming for? A lightweight "snow bike?" A more all-around bike suitable for bikepacking, etc? A four-season MTB-style that can fit fat tires? A jack of all trades?

Whatever they're aiming for will dictate many choices, but there will be some common ones. For a "snow bike," keep it pretty minimalist and lightweight. Rigid, but geometry with an axle to crown large enough to fit a decent sized fork for users who want one. For bikepacking/expedition/hunting also rigid/hardtail option but built heavier duty. Four season, full suspension.... Regardless of type, some things to consider:

Tire clearance: If it can't fit 4.8" easily or 5" tires, many will shy away because they will want that capability "just in case" if not right away. If full suspension, an available extra wheelset for plus tires would attract some buyers as that's a popular thing to do for summer time.

Mounting bosses: For the first two, bosses on the fork, top tube, etc, would be welcome for hauling stuff. Fewer needed on a four season bike. Though it's better to have them and not need them than the other way around.

Rack mounts: They should all have rack mounts. Even just two on the seat stays--axle mounted racks work really well. Fat bikes are a lot more likely than a MTB to be carrying a lot of gear, giving the user the option of mounting a rack easily is a big plus.

Kickstand: Yes, provisions for a kickstand. If they want a versatile bike, some users will certainly want one for some uses. It should attract some users, other users won't install one and a couple of mounting holes in the chainstay won't hurt them.

Battery: A frame cavity large enough to handle a really large battery. Smaller batteries could be offered for less weight/money so people could choose. Some eMTB manufacturers have begun going this route and I think it's a good thing.

Headlight: I agree people will likely want to choose their own, but having it pre-wired for some plug and play options would be really nice. It is so nice not to have to charge/replace a separate set of batteries, have another pack of batteries taking up space on the frame, etc, and knowing the headlight is always ready to go as long as the bike is. Just make sure if they do it, it's capable of handling powerful lights.

Motor: Is the company married to any particular brand of motor or do they have options? If they have options, I'd first say there are no fatbikes in Europe. Forget that market (unless they're in Finland or something). So forget about the 250W stuff and use a more powerful motor. There were times on my ride just a few days ago I was using all 750 watts I had, and I wished I had more. And that was at speeds less than 10 MPH. With big, heavy tires suitable for the worst conditions, especially on a bike loaded down with gear, more power than 250 will be most welcome.

Throttle: Yes, sure to trigger the masses here who have never used one, but when your goal is to actually get somewhere, they can be an incredibly useful tool in more situations than I can count. Another one of those things that's better to have and not need than the other way around. They can be removed very easily anytime the user chooses. It's likely for fatbikes to get much use off-trail and having one available makes the bike more capable. Having a motor compatible with one is only a plus, with no downside.

Class: Are they aiming for a specific class? In my opinion, a bike that is configurable for different classes (even if it has to be done by a dealer) is much more versatile. There are a lot of uses for which a lot of people would be annoyed to death by a 20 MPH limit and so they simply won't buy such a bike. On the other hand, many may have a bunch of Class 1/2 restricted trails they want to ride. Quality E-bikes aren't cheap and a bike that can do both is a more versatile tool for the money and will attract a wider array of buyers.

Anyway, those are my thoughts and where my money went.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

mtnbkrmike said:


> No. I’m getting nothing. But there’s a long list of important sounding people on this call. I hope it’s not a waste of time for them. Chief Product Officer, Director of R&D Chassis, Director of R&D Powertrain, R&D Engineer, Product Line Manager, Director of Marketing, and Brand Manager. I’m a little nervous actually.



If you don't value your own time, why should they?


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Jon A said:


> Motor: Is the company married to any particular brand of motor or do they have options? If they have options, I_'d first say there are no fatbikes in Europe. Forget that market (unless they're in Finland or something). _ So forget about the 250W stuff and use a more powerful motor.


You'd be wrong about that. They invented the premium fat ebike with the Haibike Fat Six and Full Fatsix with the FatSix being introduced in 2015.. Yamaha powered Full FatSix; FatSix initially with Bosch power, later gone over to Yamaha. And Bulls with their Monster hard tail and full suspension fatties with Bosch power. 

The German pedelec forum has a very active Full FatSix thread ongoing. Like 65 pages (and counting) worth. Did not check for Bulls threads as my focus is on the Yamaha FFS, or "Fully" as they like to say there. And ride they do. The elevations they are climbing in, in pretty snowy conditions at that, with that little ole 250watt motor, is impressive and beautiful. 
Haibike - Yamaha Full FAT Six ab 2016 - Besitzer - jetzt wird's voll FETT! Just right click your mouse to Translate To English. 

For this thread, 250watts normal, 500 watts max, is fine enough. A good rear cassette can handle the rest just fine. It helps meet the US federal standards set for Class 1 pedelecs and it helps provide ammo against the Anti-Ebike crowd that are quite loud in "protecting" their trails. That's for the folks who've been around here a good while, when entering the mtbr ebike thread was running a gauntlet against the crowd of anti-ebikers who dominated and bullied the conversation! I do not see a US or Canadian manufacturer building anything but a Class 1 with the typical 250watt power spec. Mail order chinese fatties with their high powered Bafangs are another kettle of fish for the regulators and land managers to worry about. 

I just found it peculiar that the OP was approached to provide "input" to this design team. Don't recall a solicitation for all folks with fatbikes both here on this forum or over on the more popular Electric Bike Review forum threads. And I like to check in on this forum most everyday. 

Wishing the OP the best with his meetup and hope to read of how it worked out. And I do like the look of his Norco's. The green frame/orange fork color combo is about the best thing currently on sale in North America.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> You'd be wrong about that. They invented the premium fat ebike with the Haibike Fat Six and Full Fatsix with the FatSix being introduced in 2015.. Yamaha powered Full FatSix; FatSix initially with Bosch power, later gone over to Yamaha. And Bulls with their Monster hard tail and full suspension fatties with Bosch power.
> 
> The German pedelec forum has a very active Full FatSix thread ongoing. Like 65 pages (and counting) worth. Did not check for Bulls threads as my focus is on the Yamaha FFS, or "Fully" as they like to say there. And ride they do. The elevations they are climbing in, in pretty snowy conditions at that, with that little ole 250watt motor, is impressive and beautiful.
> Haibike - Yamaha Full FAT Six ab 2016 - Besitzer - jetzt wird's voll FETT! Just right click your mouse to Translate To English.
> ...


I am very close to you. I had an Haibike Yamaha 2017 HT, pure joy no problem.
It was stolen, since then i am on my third Yamaha/Giant(Haibike is no longer distributed in Canada).
Again pure joy, no problem.
Some people just want a motorcycle, i do not. For me the bike feel is important.
75 pounds is a motorcycle to me. I want 55 pounds or less.
I want to pedal, not use a throttle.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

33red said:


> I am very close to you. I had an Haibike Yamaha 2017 HT, pure joy no problem.
> It was stolen, since then i am on my third Yamaha/Giant(Haibike is no longer distributed in Canada).
> Again pure joy, no problem.
> Some people just want a motorcycle, i do not. For me the bike feel is important.
> ...


I think both of our governments agree with that no-throttle/pedal assist only for ebikes. I too, like that idea. What I don't want is to find myself lumped in with the high powered crowd, some of whom are eventually going to clip and hurt other cyclists or hikers out on the trail and then, Big Brother comes down hard on all of us; cause that is how Big Govt works. 

Sorry to hear of your stolen bike, that stinks and I'd be boiling mad.

To the OP: I do encourage the folks you are talking to, to look into the Yamaha ebike drive. It's about the most rock solid, reliable and long lived system on the market. I don't see enough Yamaha's on OEM bikes; maybe cause the other brands are out there, pushing their product with sweetheart deals. But as to reliability, 33Red hinted at his experience. Mine is this: Pushing 17 thousand miles on the odometer, PW drive system. Not one issue at all, with the motor, battery(s), display or cables.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

mikesee said:


> If you don't value your own time, why should they?


True. Sigh. I DO very much value my time but I must say, I was really excited to meet with them. Nervous, actually. But yeah. Probably came across as being a little too eager. Too willing to contribute my time. Oh well. It was really fun and kind of an honour for me to even be asked my opinion on things. So I will take it as a win.


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

ZX11 said:


> The fat ebikes should have onboard tire pressure monitoring reported right to their dashboards.


And on board on-the-go tire pressure adjusting capability. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve wished I didn’t have to stop to adjust tire pressure on my fatbike. An engineering challenge for sure, but man would it be nice. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

A bike that is for seasonal use, but has a relatively high purchase price, should be as versatile as possible:

Sliding drops, ~20mm difference, 430-450 or 420-440 (love me a short chainstay)

Clearance for 29 x 3, 27.5 x 4.5, 26 x 5

Wheel choices: 26 x 80-100, 27.5 x 60-80, 29 x 40-50

Battery options: 1 Max, 2 Mod, 3 Min, perhaps make it an add so folks can cut weight if they don’t t need the power

Integrated adjustable headset, like what GG used, allows for a 15mm change in TT. and a 10mm change in stack. Integrate and angle set and you’re golden 👍

Straight seat post tube, keep it short, maximize insert for long droppers, integrate clamp is always nice.

Front suspension option: Manitou Mastodon 120mm


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> A bike that is for seasonal use, but has a relatively high purchase price, should be as versatile as possible:
> 
> Sliding drops, ~20mm difference, 430-450 or 420-440 (love me a short chainstay)
> 
> ...


Wow - a quiver killer design - especially if you add rack AND kickstand mounts (like the Trek Rail and Powerfly etc)


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

KRob said:


> And on board on-the-go tire pressure adjusting capability. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve wished I didn’t have to stop to adjust tire pressure on my fatbike. An engineering challenge for sure, but man would it be nice.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I figure it would be an issue on a heavy bike, with lots of power, trying to run low pressure tires. Mine seems to leak or change pressure a lot with temperature changes. Annoying to have the handling change (tracks bumps and foot prints) on my light Farley the way it seems to.


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