# IMBA's New Chapter Program



## MartyW (Dec 13, 2004)

I'd like to hear if any existing clubs have looked at IMBA's new chapter program and what the outcome has been. Interested in why or why not a club has signed up and if yes, how it's going so far. Metro Mountain Bikers is looking at it as an option. Thanks.
Marty Weigel
www.metromountainbikers.ning.com


----------



## brianhann (Mar 1, 2007)

We are a chapter. We actually were originally a SORBA chapter and once SORBA merged with IMBA we became an IMBA chapter. Being under the SORBA umbrella is nice because we have a regional director who is great (Tom Saurett). I would suppose wherever you are a chapter you would still have a regional director. I think it is worth being a chapter for the simple fact that being associated with IMBA gives you instant recognition as a reputable club but, every club has a different scenario.

Brian Hann
President
AMBC


----------



## MartyW (Dec 13, 2004)

As a WORBA chapter, we already have recognition from and a good relationship with our State DNR and local county parks. This is listed by IMBA as a major selling point in the chapter program but it is not something that we need to "buy" as we have already built these relationships.


----------



## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

Perhaps there should be an FAQ on this...I'm glad someone broke the ice on this.

As a chapter of IMBA does our treasury become co-owned with IMBA?

If someone donates a huge slug of money to XYZ local club, and we were a chapter of IMBA, would we be obligated to share it with IMBA? Do we only share revenue from dues, or do we share all revenue? 

If we want to spend our treasury money on a ditchwitch, tent, or local event, would we need IMBA approval?

How is our 501(c)(3) charter affected if we affiliate as a chapter of IMBA?

Who gets the 60% in the 60/40 dues split?


----------



## MartyW (Dec 13, 2004)

i'll try to answer from what i've found out so far



Fattirewilly said:


> Perhaps there should be an FAQ on this...I'm glad someone broke the ice on this.
> 
> As a chapter of IMBA does our treasury become co-owned with IMBA?
> 
> ...


----------



## Bob W (Jul 6, 2004)

*IMBA Chapter Questions*

We, JORBA, are going thru the same thing. We are still undecided which way will really be best for us. There is a FAQ that IMBA has developed. You should be able to get this thru your regional director. Also Ryan, from IMBA, has been super helpful with this topic.

MAybe someone will check in here...


----------



## snowboy76 (Aug 10, 2009)

You might want to contact someone in MORC (morgmtb.org) because MORC just went thru a merger with IMBA.

As a member of MORC, I have been happy with the merger so far.


----------



## DancingBear (Jan 12, 2004)

Fattirewilly said:


> Perhaps there should be an FAQ on this...I'm glad someone broke the ice on this.
> 
> As a chapter of IMBA does our treasury become co-owned with IMBA?
> *
> ...


*- 60% goes to IMBA*

I'd be happy to answer any questions about the program, plus we have an info package available that thoroughly explains the program's services and requirements that I can provide on request. We'll also start doing monthly informational conference calls in October for perspective chapters.

Feel free to call (my number's on imba.com) or email (my first name @imba.com) with any questions, or post here and I'll post up answers.

Thanks,

Ryan
IMBA Director of Field Programs


----------



## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

DancingBear said:


> *- 60% goes to IMBA*
> 
> I'd be happy to answer any questions about the program, plus we have an info package available that thoroughly explains the program's services and requirements that I can provide on request. We'll also start doing monthly informational conference calls in October for perspective chapters.
> 
> ...


Thanks for jumping in.

-We have a couple of "life" members ($200 fee). To pull off a chapter deal, I'm assuming these folks would need a refund??

The plus side of having IMBA do membership management/mailings etc. is a huge positive. Our club probably has 80 paid members at any given time but 150 expired/slacking members just cause we don't have a good mechanism in place to follow up.

I like to thank IMBA for putting this option on the table.


----------



## DancingBear (Jan 12, 2004)

Thanks for the feedback Willy.

IMBA doesn't support lifetime membership, so your club would have to figure out how to make it right with the members. I imagine they'd be willing to consider it a donation.

IMBA had lifetime membership at one time, but we quickly learned that instead of encouraging a life long relationship with the member, it made them disengaged and difficult to mobilize. They'd cut us a check and tune out. We appreciate the check, but IMBA needs our members to be engaged.

- Ryan


----------



## jsg (May 26, 2005)

snowboy76 said:


> You might want to contact someone in MORC (morgmtb.org) because MORC just went thru a merger with IMBA.
> 
> As a member of MORC, I have been happy with the merger so far.


Yes,so far so good here in MN.


----------



## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

DancingBear said:


> Thanks for the feedback Willy.
> 
> - Ryan


You're welcome. Some follow up questions from one of the local board members:

What would the dues be, the same price as joining IMBA?

If someone is a IMBA member and not XYZ Club, but want to be, how is that handled?

So we split 60/40 with IMBA, whose share does the RJK insurance cost come out of?

If in the future we want to split from IMBA, and just be an "affiliate" again, what is the hassle involved there?


----------



## DancingBear (Jan 12, 2004)

Answers are in the quote:



Fattirewilly said:


> You're welcome. Some follow up questions from one of the local board members:
> 
> What would the dues be, the same price as joining IMBA?
> 
> ...


----------



## k2biker (Jan 13, 2004)

DancingBear said:


> We appreciate the check, but IMBA needs our members to be engaged.
> 
> - Ryan


+1,000,000. I know it's preaching to the choir in this forum section, but getting involvement from the members is crucial and the hardest part in some areas of the country (like GA).


----------



## auditunerb5 (Dec 29, 2006)

DancingBear said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Fattirewilly
> You're welcome. Some follow up questions from one of the local board members:
> 
> ...


If I read this correctly IMBA gets 60% but the local chapter still pays additional $ for insurance?


----------



## MartyW (Dec 13, 2004)

A couple more questions regarding membership...

IMBA offers a student/youth membership for $20. After the 60/40 split the Chapter ends up with just $8. We're paying $8.50 per member for insurance. It looks like a disincentive to recruit kids.

IMBA's membership page http://www.imba.com/membership lists many different types of "membership". Does the 60/40 split rule apply to all memberships, including retailer, club and corporate?


----------



## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

MartyW said:


> A couple more questions regarding membership...
> 
> IMBA offers a student/youth membership for $20. After the 60/40 split the Chapter ends up with just $8. We're paying $8.50 per member for insurance. It looks like a disincentive to recruit kids.
> 
> IMBA's membership page http://www.imba.com/membership lists many different types of "membership". Does the 60/40 split rule apply to all memberships, including retailer, club and corporate?


Marty, we met with our regional IMBA rep this week. My understanding is the split applies to all individual/family membership levels. If someone joins at $500, you get that split. It does not apply to corporate memberships, say if you have Trek, Specy, or Oakly in your backyard.


----------



## MartyW (Dec 13, 2004)

How's the integration going? Can someone chime in on how well the process is coming along? Any MBA's decide not to and why?


----------



## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

Can't answer for the States, but north of the border, Ontario and BC are forming RLAC right now. The chapter model was slightly modified to better fit in our needs. Also, at least another province is currently evaluating the RLAC/chapter model.


----------



## Shep Huntwood (Apr 29, 2008)

I'd like to give this thread a bump, as our club is currently looking at the IMBA Chapter Program. I'm wondering if clubs have actually lost members if their membership fee was lower than IMBAs prior to becoming a chapter.

Any other comments would be great as well. I'm actually surprised there's not more discussion in this thread yet.


----------



## DaGoat (Sep 1, 2008)

FooMTB (Friends of the Outdoors Trail Partners) in Albuquerque, NM and the Santa Fe Fat Tire Society are both moving forward with the Chapter Program.

We've evaluated it pretty well and it looks like a Win/Win. Yeah the dues go up... we had a $10 membership with a $25 level if you wanted socks or a T-Shirt. I believe the base IMBA Membership is $30. We would get 40% of that or about $12. The thing is you also have to pay for the club insurance and I believe that is $8/member... and there is a $500 processing charge to get the Chapter started. 

So financially it doesn't look that great intitially. But once you have the 501c3 you can start to really work the grants and such. I know in our neck of the desert, REI has a pretty generous program and we'll be working to secure donations from other company's and individuals. And on the upside your membership base will grow if you are in a fairly urban area. More people means more volunteers.... hopefully!  

We think it will work out better for us in the long run to have the 501c3. And yeah, we thought about just getting our own 501c3, but that is expensive as well and it doesn't allow us to tap into the IMBA Membership Coordination program or solicite grants through them.

Lot's to think about, but like I said, we think it will be a Win/Win for our club and IMBA.


----------



## Bat Guano (Dec 20, 2010)

What's the upside for a medium sized mtb club that doesn't focus on securing grants for trail work, so 501c3 status isn't a big deal?

Why would such a group want to switch from an *Affiliate *club to a *Chapter *club?


----------



## DaGoat (Sep 1, 2008)

Bat Guano said:


> What's the upside for a medium sized mtb club that doesn't focus on securing grants for trail work, so 501c3 status isn't a big deal?
> 
> Why would such a group want to switch from an *Affiliate *club to a *Chapter *club?


I'd agree that they would probably not need to be in the Chapter Program unless they were going to leverage the 501c3. Now whether over time grant money is doled out from IMBA Nationally to the Chapters would be another consideration. However, I think at this point the Chapters will be on their own to leverage the 501c3.


----------



## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

DaGoat said:


> I'd agree that they would probably not need to be in the Chapter Program unless they were going to leverage the 501c3. Now whether over time grant money is doled out from IMBA Nationally to the Chapters would be another consideration. However, I think at this point the Chapters will be on their own to leverage the 501c3.


One advantage is that your club picks up IMBA's existing members in your geographic area. Often there is only about a 20% overlap.

We have 501c3 and we're looking at this pretty hard. From a membership revenue standpoint, given the pick-up in members coming from IMBA, we'd basically be neutral on the membership revenue. Much of our rev is not from membership, but things like pouring beers at concerts (fun...) and stuff that we can get in the door of because we're non-profit.

A primary advantage from our standpoint is the membership management and fulfillment, which we aren't very good at or motivated on. Membership cards, nice emails saying your membership expires in a month and so on. Last, its probably good to consider what this does for IMBA, which IMO is probably a lot so far as creating a stronger, more unified, well funded voice.


----------



## DaGoat (Sep 1, 2008)

Fattirewilly said:


> A primary advantage from our standpoint is the membership management and fulfillment, which we aren't very good at or motivated on. Membership cards, nice emails saying your membership expires in a month and so on. Last, its probably good to consider what this does for IMBA, which IMO is probably a lot so far as creating a stronger, more unified, well funded voice.


I'm with ya... we have a pretty good automated membership database system in place, but it still takes some work. The IMBA System I'm sure will be a step up and I agree, unifying under the IMBA Umbrella both for membership and support is a good thing.


----------



## donwatts (Aug 1, 2006)

So far our group has found nothing that IMBA or SORBA can do that we cannot do ourselves. We have paid chapter dues for a few years now and received nothing from either. But then again we don't have dues or elect officers.

Low Country Fat Tire Freaks
Goose Creek, SC


----------



## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

I agree donwats,we don't even have a club and have no wish to,but have a fantastic group of dedicated riders who come together when needed and do what needs be done.from group rides to clean ups and trail maintaience and design,no dues or bureaucracy.have a fantastic relationship with city,county township properties that we have access to,even to the point where they come to us for feedback and consultation about other user groups,don't understand the true point of a IMBA chapter program...stay independent more freedom to chose your own destiny.


----------



## jsg (May 26, 2005)

techfersure said:


> I agree donwats,we don't even have a club and have no wish to,but have a fantastic group of dedicated riders who come together when needed and do what needs be done.from group rides to clean ups and trail maintaience and design,no dues or bureaucracy.have a fantastic relationship with city,county township properties that we have access to,even to the point where they come to us for feedback and consultation about other user groups,don't understand the true point of a IMBA chapter program...stay independent more freedom to chose your own destiny.


In our part of the country we have found that the land managers want to work with an organized group, not an ad hoc collection of individuals. The chapter program allows us to concentrate on trail advocacy rather than administrative stuff.


----------



## donwatts (Aug 1, 2006)

Ad hoc is a Latin phrase meaning "for this". It generally signifies a solution designed for a specific problem or task, non-generalizable, and not intended to be able to be adapted to other purposes.

Our so called "ad hoc" group has been able to to put 17 miles of singletrack on the ground and currently working on 3 more miles, all on Federal land.

10 people are 10 people no matter how you look at it, weather you are an organized group under an umbrella organization, or 10 like minded people with a common goal. The Land Managers in your area are not very open minded in my opinion.

The riders in my area have banded together and decided after many failed attempts to "organize" that we would be more effective as being as you put it "ad hoc", and have found that to be most effective. When things are needed, the group reacts and solves the problem. We have a Yahoo group that we use for communication, as well as a Facebook page. The Yahoo group has 188 members.

Yes we could all pay IMBA/SORBA dues of 30 dollars, let's say 100 people do that, that is $3000 that could be used to buy tools and material. Do you get $3000 dollars worth of support from IMBA/Sorba? If you purchase a chapter membership for $30.00 you still get the same discounts on cars and tools and free Clif bars.
If you go to a Land Manager and show him the labor pool and the funds YOU have to spend on the project, you will get just as much if not more support.


----------



## thumpduster (Nov 19, 2008)

We recently hosted a visit from the IMBA's trail care crew. While a few of our regular trail volunteers could themselves teach the trail training portion, the goodwill, exposure, and relationship building with new volunteers, other trail groups, local officials, and land managers was easily worth $3000. 

The presentation for the land managers on the positive impacts of mountain biking (economic, health, property values,etc) was fantastic and would alone have been worth that sum. The connections made at that event are heading towards us having a machine donated to the club. An elected official (with many connections) was so excited about getting more trails in our parks that he came to us with the idea. 

Few, if any, of the officials or landmanagers would have attended an event put on by a few local guys who were barely organized. We have trails in 7 different jurisdictions involving agencies from the local to federal levels, without being well organized and backed by the IMBA we could never be as sucessful as we've been on so many different fronts. There seems to be a misconception about the chapter program with a lot of people worry about "being taken over" by the IMBA or simply getting nothing for their money. Our experiences have shown that their relationship to us has been more one of mentor than dictator, and that we've gotten a great return on our money. Sure, we could have survived without them, but we'd have less access and less miles of trail in our area to show for it.


----------



## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

IMBA works for some and not for others,in our particular place definitely not,do not want anyone else overseeing or influencing gentrified trail design for the masses,and frankly there is no need we have all the resources we need in house with great support from municipal and city owned public land,dumpster and equipment for cleanup days,food and beverages,tools etc donations.any donations go directly to trail development and maintaience where it belongs instead of a bigger portion going to another fat bureaucracy.


----------



## donwatts (Aug 1, 2006)

So your saying a local group cannot map out, provide logistics, put together a comprehensive plan, and present it without the ability to say we have the backing of IMBA.
A group can be organized with out the hierarchy, of having officers and collecting dues. As far as officials that would not hear from a local group, and would only consider a plan put together by a national organization, are a little short sighted.
I am not saying that Tom, Dick, and Harry just decide one day to go trail-building and walk in to a Land Manager and say, "Hey we want to build a trail." That will get you shown to the door. You also do not just call IMBA and say send someone down here to present a plan, you still have to do the leg work.
Owning a machine might be nice, but who pays the fuel cost, the maintenance, stores it and Transports it? If we need machinery, we solicit the rental companies and have great success that way, but we have little use for a machine in our neck of the woods.
I support IMBA and pay the dues as I feel that they do have a voice in a lot of matters, but to depend on them totally to get a project off the ground is pie in the sky.

Don


----------



## zachi (Jul 25, 2006)

We have a very excellent group that sprouted from an overly structured bike club. Forest Trails Alliance builds trails and promotes adventure. We have built 7 trail projects totaling more that 35 miles of trail and some sweet features including stone arched trail bridges. 

We don't charge $ for membership. You join and gain benefits / privileges based on volunteer hours...those who do the work...make the decisions. Our first year we received way more in donations than we would have made by a membership fee by leading with inspiration and action. 

I support IMBA for national politics but have not seen any benefit or support from them otherwise.  The IMBA trail class has the tendency to inspire people to hack trail w/o support for the greater experience and education needed for planning and designing a trail their book begins to speak to. 

The greater the structure(board of directors, non profit, bylaws, roberts rules, bank accounts, taxes, insurance, bla bla bla) the more $ not spent on trail and weight to carry and farther from your contingencies prime interest and tendency. Keep it simple. We built the 35 miles of trail without grants. Whats needed is local competence and good relationships with your land managers. Your contingency should be protected from too much bureaucracy as it is a crutch for the lack of spirit and initiative.


----------



## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

donwatts said:


> So your saying a local group cannot map out, provide logistics, put together a comprehensive plan, and present it without the ability to say we have the backing of IMBA.
> A group can be organized with out the hierarchy, of having officers and collecting dues. As far as officials that would not hear from a local group, and would only consider a plan put together by a national organization, are a little short sighted.
> I am not saying that Tom, Dick, and Harry just decide one day to go trail-building and walk in to a Land Manager and say, "Hey we want to build a trail." That will get you shown to the door. You also do not just call IMBA and say send someone down here to present a plan, you still have to do the leg work.
> Owning a machine might be nice, but who pays the fuel cost, the maintenance, stores it and Transports it? If we need machinery, we solicit the rental companies and have great success that way, but we have little use for a machine in our neck of the woods.
> ...


Lots of local land managers and even those at the state level sometimes feel there is a level of legitimacy that comes from working with groups like IMBA. That they have "written the book" and that they have a track record does help open the door to new trails. It might be shortsighted, but it is also human nature.

A local group may be able to pry the door open a bit wider with IMBA's help, or as a chapter of IMBA, but there still has to be a crack in the door in the first place (how else will the first pry bar fit in the door?).

Being persistent is necessary, being well prepared is key. Soliciting partners that help with the plans and vision of what trails an area can support is being smart.

Think of IMBA as a tool. If you don't need them locally, and work well without them, then you can not worry about it. I don't need every tool in my camelback, just those that work for my bike. Same idea here. Having the right tools for a job can make it easier.

JmZ


----------



## Vibrato (Apr 4, 2007)

Sheesh, so if I say our locals like what we've been able to accomplish with the help of being associated with IMBA, am I going to get attacked as though I was insulting peole who have had good success without being associated with them? 

The discussion as to whether you personally think it's worth it was good until the defensiveness started. Any chance we could ignore the few (or the one) and keep it going on a more intelligent level?

We've always been an affiliate and found out the charter program was coming a few years ago at the Midwest Mountain Bike Fest when it was in Peoria, Il. I think the perception of losing control is less of a factor than losing some funds, although we make the vast majority of our funding from events. We're a not for profit, not a 501.3(c). we have probably 120 to 150 payed members at $15.00 each year at any given time.

We use the money to rent a storage shed, and we have a bunch of weedeaters (two walkbehinds) a walk behind brush hog, 4 stihl tillers with pick tines and rubber "push" blades, etc, etc... Being an affiliate has definately helped us as the trails in our area were used, abused and abandonded by other user groups over the years and the land managers weren't keen on allowing another user group in again. Without the clout and support of a LOT of people and organizations including IMBA, we wouldn't be anywhere near what we are today. 

I'd be interested in hearing if funding for groups that used to be affiliates went up as charters due to the donations being tax deductable since you are now a 501.3(c)

To see what we've been up to, check out the midwestmtbfest.com


----------



## jsg (May 26, 2005)

donwatts said:


> Ad hoc is a Latin phrase meaning "for this". It generally signifies a solution designed for a specific problem or task, non-generalizable, and not intended to be able to be adapted to other purposes.
> 
> Our so called "ad hoc" group has been able to to put 17 miles of singletrack on the ground and currently working on 3 more miles, all on Federal land.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to be a jerk here, because it looks like you do some great advocacy work, but it looks to me like you in effect ARE the land manager? Most of us do not have that sort of inside access. It sounds like it works for you in your unique situation, but your situation is not the norm. It looks like you have done a great job developing that trail system, but I don't think a similar collection of individuals would have the same credibility elsewhere, and I don't think it disproves the need for an organized club structure.


----------



## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

In my opinion it's always better to keep it local if you can have a workable arrangement with your land managers like we have in my area.it really has a grass roots appeal to it and the camaraderie of the community we live in.


----------



## DaGoat (Sep 1, 2008)

techfersure said:


> In my opinion it's always better to keep it local if you can have a workable arrangement with your land managers like we have in my area.it really has a grass roots appeal to it and the camaraderie of the community we live in.


Well since we are getting opinions out here;

In my opinion it's better to be associated with a National Lobbying Oganization like IMBA who garners the respect of a wide range of Land Managers because of the Training and Documentation they provide for building sustainable trails that require less maintenance. I also feel it helps legitimize for our members the fact that we do belong to a Nationwide Organization that is trying to represent all of our interests.

It is also my opinion that we need this type of National Organization to counter the influence that the Wilderness and OHV groups have in the US Congress. This impact is what has opened some doors for us to ride in the National Parks, has gotten the USFS to understand the concept of "Non-Wilderness/Non-Motorized" Trail designations and may, I say may, someday get the 1984 "Mechanized" terminology removed from the Wilderness Act. (yeah, I know, quite the long shot there!)

So call me a "company" man!


----------



## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Some of us are just more independent then others,and can be just as effective,and not give up anything locally,guess were just fortunate here and don't need an organization as a backbone.

I'm so completely not a "company" man !


----------



## jsg (May 26, 2005)

I think each group needs to evaluate what works best in their particular situation.


----------



## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

Vibrato said:


> The discussion as to whether you personally think it's worth it was good until the defensiveness started. Any chance we could ignore the few (or the one) and keep it going on a more intelligent level?


+1, back on topic



Vibrato said:


> We've always been an affiliate and found out the charter program was coming a few years ago at the Midwest Mountain Bike Fest when it was in Peoria, Il. I think the perception of losing control is less of a factor than losing some funds, although we make the vast majority of our funding from events. We're a not for profit, not a 501.3(c). we have probably 120 to 150 payed members at $15.00 each year at any given time.


Our size ranges from 50 to 130 members depending on how much attention is given to membership management, which is a spreadsheet for our club and a major time suck nobody seems to want to keep up with. Our total contacts for the area are 350-400 and if we count expired members we should be around 250 members if we managed it right. We already have 501c3.



Vibrato said:


> We use the money to rent a storage shed, and we have a bunch of weedeaters (two walkbehinds) a walk behind brush hog, 4 stihl tillers with pick tines and rubber "push" blades, etc, etc... Being an affiliate has definately helped us as the trails in our area were used, abused and abandonded by other user groups over the years and the land managers weren't keen on allowing another user group in again. Without the clout and support of a LOT of people and organizations including IMBA, we wouldn't be anywhere near what we are today.


Very similar, we use a tool trailer and occasionally rent a Ditchwitch or Mini X. The insurance program as an affiliate has been useful for equipment use and getting special consideration for night riding. Also its nice to know your butt is covered from an insurance standpoint when building trails or leading group rides.



Vibrato said:


> I'd be interested in hearing if funding for groups that used to be affiliates went up as charters due to the donations being tax deductable since you are now a 501.3(c)


Last year we had over $10k in donations we wouldn't have gotten without 501c3, but that was not a typical year, we were fortunate that year. Two years before that we got an easy $4,600 grant, and could do that again this year. We regularly pour beer and wine at local concerts and the club gets paid based on the number of volunteers at $8/hr and we wouldn't have that without 501c3. We have not (yet?) pursued larger RTP type grants. So most of our revenue is not coming from dues.

From a dues standpoint, we're viewing the chapter deal with IMBA as a wash on dues revenue. Members will get more out of the club through newsletters and better membership management. If it's a wash for us, we have few headaches, and IMBA gets more rev., that's fine all the way around.


----------



## thumpduster (Nov 19, 2008)

Amen.


----------



## TCB (Dec 28, 2004)

How do you handle the membership, are the club members asked to convert to IMBA/Chapter membership once the the Club becomes a Chapter or do you convert the members as there membership expires.

Are disbursements to the Chapters within 30 day's from when a new member joins or renews.

Once a Club becomes a Chapter can they keep there name or will it be "IMBA-of-City name"

If a Chapter keeps there own 501c3 are there IMBA Chapter policies and or bylaws a chapter must follow

What are the pros and cones on keeping your own 501c3


----------



## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

TCB said:


> How do you handle the membership, are the club members asked to convert to IMBA/Chapter membership once the the Club becomes a Chapter or do you convert the members as there membership expires.
> 
> Are disbursements to the Chapters within 30 day's from when a new member joins or renews.
> 
> ...


1. Your club member database and the local IMBA membership database will be merged. Each membership will expire when the last membership expires. Example: If your local club membership expires April 2011 and your IMBA membership expires June 2011, your combined membership expires June 2011 or vice versa.

2. We have received our membership disbursements on a quarterly basis. Basically, we receive four checks a year. Seems to be about a 6-8 week wait after the quarter ends. The check for the quarter ending on Dec 31 was issued 2/25/11 for our club.

3. You can keep your name. Our club is the Minnesota Off-Road Cyclists (MORC) and our name after the change is still MORC, however, we are now MORC a chapter of IMBA.

4. We kept our 501c3 and I think that is how it should work. There are bylaws to follow. You will have some flexibility in adjusting the basic bylaws they present. Overall, the bylaws worked fine for us except for a couple of minor issues we are getting used to.

5. I think you'll need to keep your 501c3 in this relationship. Other than membership, your club will still take in fundraising dollars, corporate sponsors, and additional donations and you will need to keep your 501c3 to still work as an organization.


----------



## Kool (May 20, 2009)

*.*

Our club, Valley Mountain Bikers is not a IMBA chapter but we have benefited greatly obtaining state park lands in Pennsylvania to build sweet trails with the help of IMBA.

Its really cool to see clubs do it on there own and build trails, hook up with the local land managers and go at it. But in our case, the state wasn't going to budge until a well organised group of people approached them, and we did backed by VMB, PMBA, and IMBA, Trail Solutions helped get us started and we will have a sweet trail system finished for the community to enjoy. A sweet stacked trail system designed for beginner riders to improve on there riding skills.

Forget who builds trails where, our goal is to get more kids on the trail.


----------



## DaGoat (Sep 1, 2008)

*Trips for Kids!*



Kool said:


> Forget who builds trails where, our goal is to get more kids on the trail.


RIGHT ON!!! Check out this organization... might be something to consider.


----------



## Solo with others (Jan 6, 2004)

For those of you wanting to keep it local I have a software solution for membership management, event registration, forums, and social media connections.

http://www.ORGwerks.com

This uses the same back end that IMBA uses to manage membership and merchandise and won't cost you 60% of of your member dues to have in place. DORBA (Dallas Off-Road Mountain Bike Association) has been using it for a couple of years and tripled it's paid membership base. Austin Ridge Riders will be launching on the platform shortly as will several running clubs.


----------



## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Solo said:


> For those of you wanting to keep it local I have a software solution for membership management, event registration, forums, and social media connections.
> 
> http://www.ORGwerks.com
> 
> This uses the same back end that IMBA uses to manage membership and merchandise and won't cost you 60% of of your member dues to have in place. DORBA (Dallas Off-Road Mountain Bike Association) has been using it for a couple of years and tripled it's paid membership base. Austin Ridge Riders will be launching on the platform shortly as will several running clubs.


Thanks for this info,seams like a no brainer,pay out 60% to an outsider or keep more money to work for you in your area.


----------



## jasonb (Jan 14, 2004)

techfersure said:


> Thanks for this info,seams like a no brainer,pay out 60% to an outsider or keep more money to work for you in your area.


...but you loose out on 40% of the revenue from IMBA members in your area. Joint membership is the key here.

I'm the president of the Colorado Mountain Bike Association (COMBA) and IMBA's Interactive Marketing and Database Manager so I have each foot squarely in the chapter and IMBA side of this equation.

I think it is good that there are options. We all want the community to grow -- that is our ultimate goal. If IMBA's approach isn't right for a club, we will gladly point them to other options -- hopefully one that that better serves club's needs.

But without joint membership we fight against each other for members and resources. So not only does a club forego the tangible benefits of IMBA, particularly not getting 40% of IMBA members' revenue in their area, but they also forego being part of the larger movement to make mountain biking a legitimate and growing player at the table when it comes to land use issues.

A federation of clubs loosely affiliated with a national organization will never have the power, at a local or national level, of a closely aligned movement working together for the same goals. We need each other to build that movement. We make each other stronger. It is the reason I chose to work at IMBA and why COMBA was one of the early adopters of the chapter program.

I know that a moral appeal only goes so far, so let's talk about the money:


 Joint membership: IMBA members in the chapter's area become the chapter's members. In many cases this will be a significant increase -- a doubling or more -- of the club's membership. With the joint revenue split, both IMBA and the chapter benefit from this increase.
 Higher membership donation amounts: IMBA's average membership donation is approximately $58 per join/renew transaction. Some chapters will see the full amount of their original membership price even after the revenue split.
 IMBA staff: membership departments don't run themselves. Having the right technology is a necessary, but not a sufficient step for having a successful membership campaign. Sustained execution by professional staff without volunteer turnover has huge benefits. 
 Real growth opportunities: with membership tasks covered your staff and volunteers can concentrate on real growth through grants, corporate partnerships, larger donors, events, advocacy and trail building. Any revenues outside of membership dues are 100% yours.
 IMBA marketing reach: IMBA has partnerships with almost every major manufacturer and media outlet in the industry. We leverage these partnerships to market to hundreds of thousands of contacts in our network and our partners'. Both chapters and IMBA benefit from the resulting joint members.

In the end those are all just words. What I do know with certainty is that on Jan 1st 2009 COMBA's membership had dwindled to 80 due poor management and volunteer leadership turnover. As of today COMBA has 682 members. About 200 of those members were generated prior to integration through organic means. Another 300 were IMBA members whom we acquired through the chapter program. The final 100 were the product of less than four months of the combined strength of the COMBA-IMBA brand.

For me it isn't about the numbers -- it is about the strength of the movement and the community -- but the numbers do speak loudly.


----------



## fully (Sep 14, 2004)

*Iowans in process...*

CITA will be a Chapter soon. Jason Bertolacci's points are precisely the rationale that drove the club's decision. :thumbsup:

You can talk to Iowagriz for more as he is CITA president.


----------



## Solo with others (Jan 6, 2004)

jasonb said:


> .
> For me it isn't about the numbers -- it is about the strength of the movement and the community -- but the numbers do speak loudly.


OK... the numbers... and the community...

We (DORBA) implemented this open source combination of membership management and social sub-net software and saw our paid memberships jump from 400 to over 1,200 in 18 months. That's over $25K of ANNUAL revenue from memberships alone. And the key to this 3X membership jump was being able to combine membership management with the online social aspects of our site. This is something IMBA is not offering as part of the chapter program. I would venture to say that DORBAs brand is more powerful in North Texas than IMBAs.

And even if you have IMBA do your membership processing for you (which the software does automatically) you are still stuck looking for solutions for event registration, local donations, etc. And still you are burdened with paperwork reimbursing trail workers for tools, gas, etc. So the treasury still has to be managed and accounted for and you still need to do your tax returns for your 501c3 (in order to be able to operate tax exempt). Then you still need to manage your own local sponsor and member benefit programs. And you are still responsible for your own local club insurance (bigger expense all the time).

The list goes on....

In North Texas, national IMBA has had little purpose mainly because DORBA (as an IMBA chapter) has been able to develop over 25 trail heads in the area. We are an IMBA chapter, and we support IMBA, we just think we can run our club locally better paying someone else to do it.

As an IMBA affiliate, IMBA gets to claim our 3x larger membership when engaging on national issues so there is no loss to IMBA there. It really boils down to outsourcing membership management or putting in the tools to do it yourself (or with some help).

My point is that there is a choice. And for IMBA to compromise their own national advocacy mission by getting into the membership management outsourcing business is of little interest to those clubs that can and choose to keep the local parts local while being a full parter and participant with IMBA on a national basis.


----------



## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

I believe what works for us and maybe not for everyone,is to be free of IMBA'S and DORBA's and any other BA's gives groups like ours complete independents from all the red tape and BS that that you unfortunate souls have to deal with and retain the freedom and bliss that Mtn biking offers.it's not rocket science...build a rapport with local land managers prove your real and dedicated,attend meetings,simple medicine and very doable.putting in time to build and maintain and the money for equipment out of pocket is a very small price to pay for epic trails,the kind of trails that is the root of Mtn biking.I've ridden all over this country and abroad and honestly IMBA built trails are in my opinion stale and built mostly for the faint at heart and I will gladly put the effort and out of pocket expense to sustain true back woods ride the terrain kind of ridding that represents the best of Mtn biking.hey,maybe it's just me and I'm old school and most riders want "safe" trails but as long as I have a voice and some say I will fight tooth and nail to keep any and all of these BA's out of my neck of the woods.


----------



## Solo with others (Jan 6, 2004)

To each his/her own...

In the case of the Dallas Metroplex, without DORBA and it's infrastructure of insurance and relationships with municipalities I would have to drive two hours to ride trail or attend a decent race.

I realize that is not the case in every other part of the country. We've adapted to our surroundings quite well and have the ample opportunities for fun to prove it.


----------



## Solo with others (Jan 6, 2004)

Austin Ridge Riders just launched on ORGwerks.

We imported their member list so when members sign up with the same email address it recognizes them as a member of ARR and gives them a special badge signifying a paying member.

They are also beginning to compile some great information on local trails.
http://www.austinridgeriders.com/trail-listing


----------



## SoloWithOthers (Jan 6, 2004)

I've decided to give the solution to whatever club needs or wants it. http://www.orgwerks.com/blog/clubs-need-less-costly-alternative-imba-chapter-program


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Update from IMBA on staff support for chapters:

More Than 50 IMBA Clubs Convert to Chapter Status, New Staff Position Added | International Mountain Bicycling Association

More Than 50 IMBA Clubs Convert to Chapter Status, New Staff Position Added

For Immediate Release 8-11-2011
Contact Mark Eller
Communications Director
303-545-9011

Photo: Tiffanie Beal has stepped up her duties at IMBA to handle chapter services.

IMBA's Chapter Program was recently bolstered by the addition of a new staff position. Tiffanie Beal now serves as the Chapter and Services Coordinator, helping provide top-rate service to IMBA's chapters, clubs and members. Beal joins a chapter services team that includes Interactive Marketing and Database Manager Manager Jason Bertolacci, Membership Manager Rod Judd and Member and Constituent Coordniator Sallie Hoefer. Additionally, chapters receive graphic design services from Sugar Design.

"It's gratifying to see the demand for chapter services grow so rapidly," said Mike Van Abel, IMBA's executive director. "This new staff position will help our grassroots clubs as they convert to chapter status, strengthening our affiliate network."

Benefits for IMBA Chapters include membership processing, database management, graphic design/communications support and constituent relationship manager (CRM) tools. The Chapter Program Service Coordinator works directly with local clubs who are transitioning into the IMBA Chapter program by assisting them with their integration into the IMBA database and providing training sessions on the use of the CRM tools.

Currently, more than 50 IMBA Chapters operate in the United States, and a dozen more clubs are preparing to enter the program this summer. They include:

Rogue Valley Mountain Bike Association
Santa Barbara Mountain Bike Trail Volunteers
Capitol Off Road Pathfinders
Cyclists of Gitchee Gumee Shores
Clinton River Area Mountain Bike Association
Hoosier Mountain Bike Association
Mid-Michigan Mountain Bike Association
Northern Michigan Mountain Bike Association
Southern Nevada Mountain Bike Association
West Michigan Mountain Bike Association
Greensboro Fat Tire Society
Nantahala Area SORBA
Southeast Georgia SORBA
Chapter development is coordinated by IMBA's Regional Directors. These IMBA staffers operate in distinct territories - currently the Pacific Northwest, Rocky Mountain, Midwest, Mid-Atlantic and Southeast regions of the USA. IMBA anticipates adding additional regional staff in upcoming months. Additionally, volunteer-led Regional Leadership Advisory Councils coordinate regional efforts and expand IMBA's reach by working closely with the Regional Directors.


----------



## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Mark E, an interesting reply to the issue of too much red tape and other issues that ensure an active beauracracy in making and riding trail. I'm sure the lady is very capable, but does she dig?

I am starting to weary of the need to stick our heads up our own bum, overlook the need and right to access our world and give in to the need to prove something in writing and on paper. No wonder DORBA wants independence and no wonder techfersure wants no umbrella group and no wonder rogue trails get built.

Trail building is being turned into a paper trail. Does this fail to make sense to anyone else?

Now come back with all your modern-world-excuses-for-the-justification-of jobs-achieving-bugger-all-real-results arguments so you can feel good about wasting money that could go into hands-on work. And don't forget all the reasons why that's not possible instead of picking up a shovel.

If IMBA folds, there's still jobs in global warming.


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

I'd like to reply but I'm too busy moving stacks of paper from the left side of my desk to the right, and back again.


----------



## DaGoat (Sep 1, 2008)

Ridnparadise said:


> ...no wonder rogue trails get built.


Yep, there are those who are part of the solution and those who are part of the problem. *Society* has a way of dealing with those who are part of the problem.

Thanks for the update Mark! We're on our way to becoming a Chapter.


----------



## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

So, I guess things are going to go very badly for the US administration soon then? If society dealt with problems, then there wouldn't be a need to justify public access to public land. I'm getting too old to deal with brainwashed, ignorant pussies who really believe that pandering to new levels of financial stress and social control is a good thing. Wake up. When clubs complain that the job they were doing is going to cost more and take longer to get done and that membership is likely to fall because of increased costs, then listen. 

IMBA is a reflection of the oppressive system we have let rule our world. Where the importance of the individual and for that matter, man as a whole becomes less than the concept of environment, planet and economy, there is no happy future.

Why is it that by creating a new identity in the MTB world, the pre-existing face of the sport somehow becomes wrong and a problem? I bet Stalin and Hitler thought the same way.


----------



## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

I enjoyed your opinions on things until now. I just don't see where this is necessary or relevant.

Remember, your browser has a back button.


----------



## indytrekracer (Feb 13, 2004)

*Right Tool for the Job*

Just Like trail building, its important to use the right tool for the job.

We have parks in Indiana where the local mountain bikers asked the Park Manager if they could build trails and the Park Manager said sure, lets go do it! They work as park volunteers and build some great trails. In some cases the parks let them do stuff HMBA's insurance doesn't cover.

If you get a situation like this, then forget all the organizational BS and focus on building trails.

But, HMBA's primary focus is DNR properties. State Parks and State Forests. Individuals who went to Park Managers and asked to build mtb trails were told no. The Park managers weren't able to add mtb trails to their parks, as that decision had to come from the State Park Leadership. The State didn't want to deal with a bunch of local volunteers at each park. They want deal with one group. In order to be that group, HMBA needed to be organized, have insurance, and either be or be attach to a 501 (c) (3).

If we want to be involved in DNR properties, we have to be willing to deal with a lot of "Red Tape". How we are associated with IMBA has nothing to do with this. We have to form our organization in a way that will be successful dealing with the DNR.

We just got approval to open a trail in a State Park this October, that we started working on in March 2007. The property was an old military base and was deeded to the Feds. This got National Parks involved. Then add in opposition from the anti mtb crowd and we swam in Red Tape. Locals with shovels in hand would not have been successful at this park.

Some times our organization and it's "rules" aren't a good fit for local parks. In that case, no big deal. We support the locals and let them do their thing.

But often times these groups come up against something that requires HMBA's reasources to resolve. We has been able to step in and submit grants requiring 501 (c) (3) status, provide trained and insured chainsaw operators, provide funding, provide consulting, help with advocacy, etc...

I burn a lot of vacation days attending meetings and keeping our membership, 501(c)(3), and finances in order. Then there are the newsletters, web site, social media, fund raising, etc..... I'd rather be out in the woods riding or trail building, but someone has to do it.

Partnering with IMBA means they will help with of the admin. Leads to the day when we will have a regional Rep (who can go to some of the meetings I have to take vacation for), and help with fundraising. Also means we can stop trying to find a person to manage our membership.

So it is a great fit for HMBA to join the IMBA chapter program. If you don't currently have to worry about insurance, liability, finances, etc.. and can just go dig, then by all means do so.

Paul Arlinghaus 
President, Hoosier Mountain Bike Association


----------



## dirt (Jan 30, 2004)

Ridnparadise said:


> Mark E, an interesting reply to the issue of too much red tape and other issues that ensure an active beauracracy in making and riding trail. I'm sure the lady is very capable, but does she dig?
> 
> I am starting to weary of the need to stick our heads up our own bum, overlook the need and right to access our world and give in to the need to prove something in writing and on paper. No wonder DORBA wants independence and no wonder techfersure wants no umbrella group and no wonder rogue trails get built.
> 
> ...


Yep, trail building HAS become a paper trail. But, from the viewpoint of clubs, this is a response to what is required by government entities, land manager needs/concerns, and legal issues. Having been involved with an advocacy organisation at the state and chapter level for close to 8 years now, this is one of the issues have have pushed us toward the IMBA Chapter program.

One way or the other, we have to deal with the paper work that is part of trail building and advocacy organizations now. We feel that teaming up with IMBA will help us return our focus to putting shovels to dirt, and not dealing with issues of running a 501(c)3.


----------



## Visicypher (Aug 5, 2004)

*Amen*



dirt said:


> Yep, trail building HAS become a paper trail.


Ain't that the truth!!!


----------



## TCB (Dec 28, 2004)

The last post on this thread was about 9 moths ago and there were only a small handful of IMBA Chapters, 9 months later there are over 50 Chapters, I would like to know how is the IMBA Chapter program working, is it helping or hurting your Club/Association, what are the Pros and Cons of becoming a IMBA Chapter. 

Thanks


----------



## Red Snail Racing (Feb 28, 2007)

Just wanted to bump this thread. For those of you that became a Chapter, what say you?


----------



## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

We here in Reading Pa just recently went through the process,pretty straight foreword working with Frank Maguire Mid Atlantic regional director.after much thought and discussion amongst peers we came to the conclusion that it is much needed here to bring legitimacy and credibility to our area Mtn biking community with land managers.we already have an extensive trail system and felt being an IMBA chapter will help us protect all the work and effort over the years in trail development and help insure that these trails will continue to exist for future riders.


----------



## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

We formed a club and became a chapter here on Maui as a result of the state DNLR destroying most of the jumps and a pumptrack in one of the more popular riding spots on the island, years of work gone in a single day. The legitimacy we gained in the state's eyes by organizing and affiliating with IMBA has already gotten us a tacit approval from the state to design and build a new pump track, flow trail and freeride/jump trail. Anna Laxague, our regional IMBA representative, came out and met with the state and put on a trail work seminar, and has been incredibly helpful with the whole process.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Great thread.

SF Bay area advocacy is radically different than anywhere in the world and IMBA has never been able to get a grasp on it. Our advocacy groups are pretty well established. Discussions about the Chapter Program have been respectful but no one is sold on it.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

MartyW said:


> I'd like to hear if any existing clubs have looked at IMBA's new chapter program and what the outcome has been. Interested in why or why not a club has signed up and if yes, how it's going so far. Metro Mountain Bikers is looking at it as an option. Thanks.
> Marty Weigel
> Metro Mountain Bikers - Milwaukee Wisconsin


I am part of a group of folks that started an IMBA chapter (Roanoke IMBA) about a year ago.

If you (or anyone) would like to talk to me about our experience with this, PM me, and I would be happy to talk about it.


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Update from IMBA's executive director posted 11-6-2012

Priorities emerge from the 2012 IMBA Chapter Congress | International Mountain Bicycling Association

Priorities Emerge from 2012 Chapter Congress

IMBA Chapters have spoken and they know what they want to do in order to improve the chapter program. To be more precise, 32 of the current 102 chapters who had representatives in attendance at the IMBA World Summit in Santa Fe told IMBA's board and staff what is important to them. They revealed their priority ideas and interests for how to continue to add value to the program at the 2012 IMBA Chapter Congress.

The group process for the 2012 Chapter Congress generated over 50 distinct ideas and interests. This list included ideas from the pre-congress online chapter survey. After the brainstorming portion of the congress, each chapter was given an opportunity to prioritize their ideas. They did so by voting one of three ways: 1) a "green" vote meant the idea or interest was a top priority, 2) a "yellow" vote was to proceed with caution or it was an idea that needed further consideration, and 3) a "red" vote meant the idea is not a priority.

Each chapter was given a sheet of self-adhesive colored dots - six for each of the three colors. The color dots/votes could be distributed in any way the chapter wished among the list of ideas, e.g. all six of a color on one idea or one color dot/vote spread over six different ideas.

Here's a link to the web page where you can view the full results by downloading a PDF file. The chart is sorted in descending order of priority.

Here are the top ten ideas/interests:

Continue to streamline CiviCRM
Scheduule visits with the Subaru/IMBA Trail Care Crew
Add state-level staff and form smaller IMBA regions
Add regionally based trail staff
Improve the chapter handbook and best practices guidebook
Introduce chapter mentor program and enhance chapter networking
Improve regional summits
More emphasis on IMBA's Public Lands Initiative
Offer co-branded gear
Add a legal resources database

Allow me to make a few observations about the prioritized list of ideas and interests identified at the chapter congress.

A few of the ideas and interests, while ranked as a high priority, also received large numbers of less enthusiastic "yellow" votes. Clearly, many chapters want more information about these ideas. Some of these are not new "to-be-developed" ideas but existing programs and services with low level of awareness by many chapters.
In total, chapters at the congress voted over three times as often with green (196 total green votes) as they did with red votes (62 total red votes). Most of the ideas and interests listed are of some level of priority.
A few ideas received votes across the spectrum, in all three colors. These indicate a lack of consensus by chapters and for me would be ranked lower than the spreadsheet's sorting function did.

What's next?

There are clear priorities that emerged from the Congress. As IMBA finalizes its operations and program plans and budget for the next two years (2013/14), this list of priority interests will be front and center in IMBA's planning and resource allocation in order to accelerate their development.
With so many chapter votes in the "yellow" category, we must improve communications between chapters and IMBA and between chapters. Regional summits can help address this issue.
Given the reality of resource limitations, many good ideas and important areas for development will not be addressed in the coming years. Personally, I am not satisfied with that scenario. IMBA and its chapters must continue to explore and develop our joint capacity to add resources in order to accelerate other vitally important programs that help us achieve our mission.

I want to thank the 65 chapter volunteer leaders that took the time to attend the 2012 IMBA Chapter Congress. This is our mutual future for which we are planning so it makes sense that together we plan for how we achieve that future.


----------



## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

*Bump: Another IMBA success story*

We're 2 weeks into our joint project with MMBC, IMBA and a division of the Hawaii DLNR. This video was shot by our regional IMBA representative during a volunteer trail day last Saturday (7/13/13).





MMBC build Day from Anna Laxague on Vimeo.


----------



## CANADIANBACON (Sep 25, 2005)

TCB said:


> The last post on this thread was about 9 moths ago and there were only a small handful of IMBA Chapters, 9 months later there are over 50 Chapters, I would like to know how is the IMBA Chapter program working, is it helping or hurting your Club/Association, what are the Pros and Cons of becoming a IMBA Chapter.
> 
> Thanks


Some very excellent points have been raised on this thread both pro & con the IMBA Chapter program & IMBA in general.

I can tell you from personal experience that the results of the Chapter program will be directly related to WHO the Regional Director is, how the land management agency(s) relates to and view mountain biking, the local demographics, and how the community as a whole values or does not value mountain biking.

All of this being said, based on our experience here in Sedona I am rethinking my entire understanding of what role IMBA is trying to play locally and nationally.

The thread on the AZ forum is a heated version of what is happening in Sedona. Although much of what is being discussed is close to the truth it is somewhat is distorted: http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/sedona-kicked-out-i-m-b-864853.html

As it stands our club has so many damning pieces of correspondence, ethically and legally made recordings, and video that IMBA's conduct here is indefensible. It is my opinion we have been thoroughly manipulated.

Using our case as an example: How can mountain bike advocates and local riders support an organization that permits one of it's agents to empower himself while undermining the voice and will of local advocates and riders?

Until IMBA is transparent and accountable to the locals/community who created the trail asset in the first place I can not in good conscience advise anyone to participate.

It is my sincere hope that out of our difficult experiences local riders, clubs and chapters will come to understand that the IMBA Chapter program needs overhauling and strong dose of public oversight.

In my opinion, left as it is, the Chapter program can be summed up as an opaque Win-Loose relationship for communities like ours. Taking the long view, unchanged the current Chapter program is positioned as a wholesale takeover of local mountain bike advocacy... A very dangerous precedent indeed.

I am very supportive of a mission that:
- Seeks to bring all of the stakeholders to the table
- Empowers local advocates and riders - giving EVERY member of the local community a voice and the ability to be heard... No matter how difficult certain opinions or personalities might be
- And most importantly seeks to foster the creation of the best possible solutions to local access and advocacy issues IN THE EYES OF THE LOCAL MOUNTAIN BIKER... NOT IMBA!

With respect,
CB


----------



## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Our expierence has been very positive! Our chapter "BAMBA" has had nothing but good fortune since we signed on.in our very short time as an official chapter we have won over three puplic land use entity's,Conservency,Berks County Parks and City of Reading Parks which all intertwine.we have been given full authority and over site for the Mtn bike community on these lands,full access,keys to all of the gates,authority to use equipment,build,alter and maintain trails! having the backing of an international organization really helped give us credibility with land managers and IMBA has pretty much left us alone to do as we please. win win for us and Mtn biking here in Pa! our regional director Frank Maguire was stellar!


----------



## CANADIANBACON (Sep 25, 2005)

techfersure said:


> Our expierence has been very positive! Our chapter "BAMBA" has had nothing but good fortune since we signed on.in our very short time as an official chapter we have won over three puplic land use entity's,Conservency,Berks County Parks and City of Reading Parks which all intertwine.we have been given full authority and over site for the Mtn bike community on these lands,full access,keys to all of the gates,authority to use equipment,build,alter and maintain trails! having the backing of an international organization really helped give us credibility with land managers and IMBA has pretty much left us alone to do as we please. win win for us and Mtn biking here in Pa! our regional manager was stellar!


I am stoked for you guys.

CB


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

I'm on the board of Roanoke IMBA, an IMBA chapter in VA. Our Regional Director (Frank Maguire) has been really great to deal with.


----------



## redd4573 (Apr 15, 2012)

Our brand new club is coming up to it's first birthday! The RBRTC serves three counties around the Youngstown, Ohio area. Our Regional Director Andy Williamson is the best. He has helped us out greatly in the process of starting a new club. So I say the Chapter program is a big help to many clubs even new ones. Thanks Andy!!!!


----------



## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Nice,three counties! we have more then we can take on in one county alone as of now about half a year into ours,but all going really well thankfully we have a great board of mostly independent business owners including myself who bring a lot of business acumen to the table which helps ease the red tape and bureaucracy that comes along with an organization and really takes very little of our time to keep it organized and running smoothly.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

I see that new clubs or clubs struggling with membership, for manpower or skill reasons, benefit with an influx of members/money. It seems that this can even be substantial. All good. I see the utility of a non-profit status. 

Yet after that what, really, is the benefit? A land manager who says no, who supports horses or hikers or enviros still says no to IMBA. Ad hoc solutions, absent access, like renegade trails or riding unauthorized trails, seem to be the consequence. They seem pretty good at low hanging fruit but who isn't?


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I see that new clubs or clubs struggling with membership, for manpower or skill reasons, benefit with an influx of members/ money. It seems that this can even be substantial. All good. I see the utility of a non-profit status.
> 
> Yet after that what, really, is the benefit? A land manager who says no, who supports horses or hikers or enviros still says no to IMBA. Ad hoc solutions, absent access, like renegade trails or riding unauthorized trails, seem to be the consequence. They seem pretty good at low hanging fruit but who isn't?


Andy Williamson is also the regional director for my area (Indiana) and he does a great job. I think this area has benefited pretty significantly in the access department since most clubs have gone the IMBA Chapter route. We've got several pretty substantial trail projects going in various stages of development right now. One of them is an RTP grant project. Andy has been helping with a lot of this stuff, as well as with general club organization.

Renegade trails and riding unauthorized trails will probably always be an issue until some larger shifts occur in the culture of mountain biking. Everybody has to work on that one.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

That is a pretty general and glossy statement. These are the kinds of answers I get from many people but they are always really short on facts and details? What did they actually do that you could not do yourselves? And if you could not, what were you lacking?

As to the broader behavior: well put. That said, what is IMBA encouraging clubs to do to create cultural shifts. There are two side to that coin.


----------



## SeaHag (Jul 14, 2011)

This has been a great thread to read. I am one of the founders of our two year old "club" in southern Minnesota...Mankato Area Mountain Bikers [MAMB]. We are a little over an hour south of the metro area covered by MORC an IMBA chapter. We are in the process of trying to grow our club base large enough to even consider IMBA chapter status. So far we have a facebook page and website where "membership" is as simple as communicating an interest and showing up to participate. So far we have over 200 "likes" on facebook as prospective members; but when it comes to our advertised group rides and trail work dates, the turnout is pretty lean...which leads me to believe if we tried to charge money of any kind we'd have even fewer "members".

Perhaps this should be it's own thread, but I was wondering what your clubs have done to grow the base and spread the message of your clubs? Outside our core group of dedicated board members, it doesn't seem like we have much of a club at all yet. How do we change that?

https://www.facebook.com/#!/joinMAMB


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Answered below.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> That is a pretty general and glossy statement. These are the kinds of answers I get from many people but they are always really short on facts and details? What did they actually do that you could not do yourselves? And if you could not, what were you lacking?


If you are truly interested in the details, I'd be happy to talk about it off of this board (I don't want to air all our business in the web). PM me and I'll let you know how to contact me by phone.


----------



## c0nsumer (Mar 17, 2008)

SeaHag said:


> Perhaps this should be it's own thread, but I was wondering what your clubs have done to grow the base and spread the message of your clubs? Outside our core group of dedicated board members, it doesn't seem like we have much of a club at all yet. How do we change that?


I'm the chairperson for CRAMBA-IMBA, an IMBA chapter that came out of the Michigan Mountain Bike Association (MMBA) chapters moving to the IMBA chapter program.

We're struggling with this a bit as well (as are all clubs, I imagine) but here's some things we to do get the word out about who we are:

- Online engagement, including website with trail info, Facebook page, regular email.
- Signage at trails we maintain. This is hugely important, as people see on the trailhead sign who does the maintenance work.
- Map brochures listing local trails distributed to local bike and outdoor shops.
- Logo stickers for cars/bikes/etc.
- Hosting a weekly all-level (no-drop, frequent regroup) group ride at one of the chapter's most central and popular trails.
- Annual fundraiser race which is put on as a family-friendly all-day event.
- Annual semi-supported regional group ride spanning four of the most popular local trails.
- Public trail work days that make it clear the work is led by CRAMBA-IMBA.

All of this seems to get the word out in little ways, and it seems to be working. Our membership is growing, new people are showing up all the time, and lots of people are getting involved.

For what it's worth, as both a chapter leader and general local mountain biker, I've been quite happy with the IMBA chapter program. We've seen our membership revenue grow, we've basically gotten rid of having to track/handle membership fulfillment ourselves, and having IMBA's assets -- including Andy Williamson -- available to us has been hugely helpful.


----------



## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Our chapter " BAMBA " has won complete support from the several land managers here in Reading Pa,this actually started at a grass roots level by myself and a few others years before we went with IMBA,and we were already winning over officials with our good works but really wanted some legitimacy,support and credibility that a big organization can bring to the table!

In a few short months we have over 100 members money in our account mostly from tee shirt,hoodies and jackets and several LBS sponsors.have made the local paper several times for good works,donating a bike to the Sheriffs Dept to patrol some problem areas on a rails to trails path and are going to help with donating lighting and cameras, kids programs and clean ups. we've had several membership meetings for new and standing members at our expense and have been very successful!

We just recently proposed a "skills area" jump line,pump track,wall ride,log ride etc,had a walkabout with the Parks manager he liked what we proposed and has his support. we could be building as early as late fall or early spring! We already have interested donors! in a nut shell going "Chapter" was the best move forward for us to protect and develop Mtn biking in our area and have the support and clout that a national organization like IMBA can bring to the table and help pave the way


----------



## CANADIANBACON (Sep 25, 2005)

kapusta said:


> If you are truly interested in the details, I'd be happy to talk about it off of this board (I don't want to air all our business in the web). PM me and I'll let you know how to contact me by phone.


Wow.

With so many mountain bikers out there, looking at stepping-up and participating in mountain bike advocacy, trying to decide whether or not to give IMBA 60% of their membership dues...

Why not leverage mtbr.com as an opportunity to talk with a candid audience of mountain bike enthusiasts about such an incredible value proposition?

Private discussions, off-line, by telephone, do not reach such large numbers of mountain bike enthusiasts.

CB


----------



## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Yea,wow! These are not the workings of a secret society,the success,methods and workings of IMBA Chapters should be shared publicly like here on Mtbr so others too can grow and do good work!


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Nothing sinister about this.

Kapusta and I took our discussion off-line because a phone conversation is far richer and more nuanced than anything we could have done here.

He described how IMBA helped pull together elements of the mtb community (shops, small cadres of buds, knot heads and such) in his area which would not previously gel in numerous attempts. Very interesting. Also described the function of membership development and the value of IMBA contacts in other similar areas who were doing similar things. Further, the IMBA matrix for leadership was a worthy template.

We discussed an upcoming meeting I am having with other SF Bay Area advocacy groups, IMBA's desire to have a Chapter in this area, and the idea that overlap amongst the groups would be required to make it work. We also talked about how our areas are different and how that applies to the Chapter Program. We talked about mature groups having a different set of needs.

We shot the breeze a lot and now have a relationship that I value in new ways.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

The meeting was great with well-established groups from the East Bay (20 yrs), 3 from Marin (18 yrs, 15 yrs, 22 yrs), 2 from Sonoma (20 & 16) and the Regional Director from IMBA (30 years with State Parks and 7 with IMBA.) What IMBA hopes for is that we all become Chapter members and form a coalition which meets regularly and can function to focus IMBA efforts. They are looking for the resources that 7.9 million people can bring to them to grow IMBA. Something akin to this was tried from 2004-2006 called NorCamba and it simply sucked resources from my group in particular. The rest of the group shared that concern.

It comes down to revenue from well established clubs who have developed a community over a long time. The idea of increases in membership over time due to industry lists met with some doubt. Also the loss of the face-time of membership drives and club systems engender. Desires for support with certain issues vs. the actual availability of IMBA arose. The lack of similar issues between groups became clear.

The group was cool to the idea but will meet again with or without IMBA as we got to know each other. Great bunch of skilled and experienced advocates.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

CANADIANBACON said:


> Wow.
> 
> With so many mountain bikers out there, looking at stepping-up and participating in mountain bike advocacy, trying to decide whether or not to give IMBA 60% of their membership dues...
> 
> ...


Seriously? There are probably a few hundred people on the boards if IMBA chapters. Was there some by-law I missed stating that they are all required to post all about it on internet chat boards? Or is this something that I am somehow particularly on the hook for?

Do you conduct all your communications on internet chat boards?

I am leveraging MTBR: I've offered to talk one-on-one to anyone interested, which Berkley Mike took me up on. If you really want to learn the nuances of my/our experiences with it take me up on the offer. However, my sense is that you are more interested in airing your clubs laundry than really understanding our experience with IMBA.

The chapter program was a good move for us, but I can only speak to our situation, and some of the specifics of our situation, while not secret, do not need to be broadcast to the world. If you really care, contact me.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

One thing I would point out is that while IMBA takes 60% of membership dues, we (the local chapter) actually get over half our revenue from sponsors (individuals or business) and we keep 100% of that.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

techfersure said:


> Yea,wow! These are not the workings of a secret society,the success,methods and workings of IMBA Chapters should be shared publicly like here on Mtbr so others too can grow and do good work!


There are other methods of communication besides mtbr. What I have offered is a far more in depth and nuanced conversation than what you are going to have here.


----------



## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Agreed,but we all do not have the time to make or receive personal calls and for the many out there I believe that a forum like this can be an information source for those seeking other chapters road to success.there really is not any pertinent information other them maybe finances and some inner workings but everything else is and should be open book.in the very short time that we here at BAMBA have been officially a charter this method of openness and our eight member board willingness to work very well together for the better of Mtn biking and our successful collaboration with three land manager entities is a formula that works very well for us.each to his own but my feeling is to share as much info by any means possible to help insure and encourage future chapters success.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

techfersure said:


> Agreed,but we all do not have the time to make or receive personal calls and for the many out there I believe that a forum like this can be an information source for those seeking other chapters road to success.there really is not any pertinent information other them maybe finances and some inner workings but everything else is and should be open book.in the very short time that we here at BAMBA have been officially a charter this method of openness and our eight member board willingness to work very well together for the better of Mtn biking and our successful collaboration with three land manager entities is a formula that works very well for us.each to his own but my feeling is to share as much info by any means possible to help insure and encourage future chapters success.


99.9% of people involved in an IMBA chapter have never and will never talk about it on mtbr. I came forward here and offered to talk in the way I find most useful. If you are not interested in this more in depth and meaningful level of communication, fine, but kindly refrain from telling me what I should or should not be sharing where. If you feel that put off by people not posting more on mtbr about the chapter program, go bother one of the other 99.9% that has not posted here.

We are totally open about everything we do. Thus the offer to talk.

Have a nice day.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> The meeting was great with well-established groups from the East Bay (20 yrs), 3 from Marin (18 yrs, 15 yrs, 22 yrs), 2 from Sonoma (20 & 16) and the Regional Director from IMBA (30 years with State Parks and 7 with IMBA.) What IMBA hopes for is that we all become Chapter members and form a coalition which meets regularly and can function to focus IMBA efforts. They are looking for the resources that 7.9 million people can bring to them to grow IMBA. Something akin to this was tried from 2004-2006 called NorCamba and it simply sucked resources from my group in particular. The rest of the group shared that concern.
> 
> It comes down to revenue from well established clubs who have developed a community over a long time. The idea of increases in membership over time due to industry lists met with some doubt. Also the loss of the face-time of membership drives and club systems engender. Desires for support with certain issues vs. the actual availability of IMBA arose. The lack of similar issues between groups became clear.
> 
> The group was cool to the idea but will meet again with or without IMBA as we got to know each other. Great bunch of skilled and experienced advocates.


It was good talking to you. Interested to see how it goes. Individual chapters seems to make sense. I am particularly interested in whether IMBA would be able to help coordination between the various clubs/chapters.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

kapusta said:


> It was good talking to you. Interested to see how it goes. Individual chapters seems to make sense. I am particularly interested in whether IMBA would be able to help coordination between the various clubs/chapters.


Key to that is figuring out exactly what it is that is being coordinated. As a group we did not see much overlap.

Over the last year I have lobbied IMBA for an SF Bay summit which may occur in the fall. That may be a place for many different orgs to describe their own particular circumstance. That done, distinctions, natural connections and potential synergies may reveal themselves.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

techfersure said:


> Agreed,but we all do not have the time to make or receive personal calls and for the many out there I believe that a forum like this can be an information source for those seeking other chapters road to success.there really is not any pertinent information other them maybe finances and some inner workings but everything else is and should be open book.in the very short time that we here at BAMBA have been officially a charter this method of openness and our eight member board willingness to work very well together for the better of Mtn biking and our successful collaboration with three land manager entities is a formula that works very well for us.each to his own but my feeling is to share as much info by any means possible to help insure and encourage future chapters success.


The brevity of your availability doesn't mean that a 1 hours conversation's dynamic and interactive content should happen here. If you want that sort of thing you need to invest your time and energy. If you don't have it why badger us?


----------



## dan4jeepin (Apr 9, 2007)

I'm an officer of the local club and we are looking into the chapter program but I just don't know if it would really work for us. The club is small and I don't see that changing even with IMBA's help. Becoming a chapter means we give up a large part of our dues yet still having to pay insurance. IMBA is big on having officers and boards but we can barely find people to fill the current roles.

I would love to hear from any small under 100 member club that has gone to being IMBA chapter.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

dan4jeepin said:


> I'm an officer of the local club and we are looking into the chapter program but I just don't know if it would really work for us. The club is small and I don't see that changing even with IMBA's help. Becoming a chapter means we give up a large part of our dues yet still having to pay insurance. IMBA is big on having officers and boards but we can barely find people to fill the current roles.
> 
> I would love to hear from any small under 100 member club that has gone to being IMBA chapter.


I think smaller clubs are the ones with most to benefit from the chapter program. I don't think becoming a chapter will increase the need for board level involvement, assuming you are able to keep the four main executive positions filled (Pres, VP, Treasurer, Sec). Financially, it could be a plus or minus, depending on several factors specific to your club. Our club only has about 80 members after about a year and a half, it's previous incarnation was less than half of that before we re-started as an IMBA chapter. Overall, I think becoming a chapter helped us a LOT financially, as we started getting a lot of local sponsors (the chpater keeps all of that).

My offer to talk of course still applies.

Good luck.


----------



## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

dan4jeepin,

One of the good things about it is the insurance. No matter the size of your group you should be insured. I volunteered at many levels in my club from trail steward to dirt boss to board member and ultimately board chair. I would not have done any of these without club insurance backing me up. Do your club and yourself and get insurance.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## CANADIANBACON (Sep 25, 2005)

kapusta said:


> Seriously? There are probably a few hundred people on the boards if IMBA chapters. Was there some by-law I missed stating that they are all required to post all about it on internet chat boards? Or is this something that I am somehow particularly on the hook for?
> 
> Do you conduct all your communications on internet chat boards?
> 
> ...


kapusta,

With all due respect, the tone of your reply seems disingenuous.

Are you questioning my sincereity or the validity of our Chapters experiences? It seems very clear to me that this thread was created expressly for the purpose of discussing the variety of experiences, positive and negative, that Chapters have had. How is it that contributing to this thread by discussing my Chapter's experiences equates to "airing our club's laundry"?

Regarding your offer to talk one on one: I appreciate the generosity of your sentiment yet I do not recall asking you to discuss the 'nuances' of your clubs experiences.

What is perplexing me though is why you would make such an offer and in the same paragraph judge me and my organization without knowing the facts. These are not the words of a fellow advocate seeking to provide support. Your offer does not feel safe nor welcoming.

I am genuinely glad for you and hope that others have similar success in thier relationships.

CB


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

CANADIANBACON said:


> kapusta,
> 
> With all due respect, the tone of your reply seems disingenuous.
> 
> ...


This sort of post is exactly why I don't want to hold such a conversation here.

No, I have said nothing to question the validity of what people are sharing here. I will say that you in particular are airing more stuff about your chapter here and in the thread you linked to than I would. I don't think that is a healthy way to work these things out. If you want to do so, that's fine, it is an open forum, but it's not what I do, and it's not a conversation I am interested in having.

And if you read everything I've posted, I have addressed specific points about being a chapter.

If it makes you feel any better, I will withdraw my offer to talk to you.


----------



## dan4jeepin (Apr 9, 2007)

RYNOFREERIDE said:


> dan4jeepin,
> 
> One of the good things about it is the insurance. No matter the size of your group you should be insured. I volunteered at many levels in my club from trail steward to dirt boss to board member and ultimately board chair. I would not have done any of these without club insurance backing me up. Do your club and yourself and get insurance.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


We have insurance now the problem is going IMBA we still have the insurance cost we have to cover but less money from dues. From what I've heard the cost is the same as what we are currently paying even when you are an IMBA chapter. The idea of getting sponsors sounds good but I don't see being a IMBA chapter getting us any more help then what we currently have.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

dan4jeepin said:


> We have insurance now the problem is going IMBA we still have the insurance cost we have to cover but less money from dues. From what I've heard the cost is the same as what we are currently paying even when you are an IMBA chapter. The idea of getting sponsors sounds good but I don't see being a IMBA chapter getting us any more help then what we currently have.


You may wan to talk to your regional IMBA director about this. You could probably get an idea of how many imba members are in your area, and compare that to your current membership to determine ho many members you will be gaining. In our case, the numbers we gained offset the decrease in $ per member. That may or may not be the case with you.

Ultimately, if you don't think you will gain members, sponsors, or have more local impact by becoming an imba chapter, and in addition see it as a loss financially, then it is going to be hard to justify becoming a chapter. It all comes down to your situation.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Canadianbacon, you have been pretty forthcoming about the IMBA experience your Sedona club has had. You seem to feel you have a right to tell the story. I don't know how you come by that belief but I won't question it. I have found your contribution to ring faithfully rendered and be very valuable to me and my group.

Setting that aside, your method is extremely expository of what _could be_ considered private information. That is for each of us, as individuals and as leaders who may be assigned confidences, to decide. It may not concede to demands for openness in some cases as that right may not be ours or it simply may not be our style. From your fluid and obviously good-humored style of writing, I''m guessing you share pretty freely.

Your quarter seems pretty pissed and as you tell the story, and express what you feel is valued, it is understandable. There is something insulting, dismissive, and demeaning in the way you see being treated. Makes sense to me. Yet it also makes sense that such disposition, though, might drive one to reveal things well beyond what others might do.

What Kapusta did by offering off-line discussion served several purposes. As I posted before, the value of real-time interaction for an hour between very busy people far out-steps anything one might accomplish on this forum in any reasonable amount of time. Additionally, and this may be even more central to general human values, it respects the possibility of different sets of ideas about what is private, what can be shared responsibly, and not assume the same degree of frank sharing as you.

So I disagree to an assessment that things are being "hidden". Further, I tend to bridal at attempts to manipulate people into sharing. Personally, I don't believe that anyone has any right to information about me or anyone I represent. That said, as a great believer in the value of MTBR as a principle force in our community, I share a great deal and delight in the sharing from others. That others share, however, is a gift and we have no right to demand gifts or dictate the nature of them.

BTW, thank you for all of your hard work in Sedona. You clearly represent a valued group of riders and trail builders who can be hard to to get into the same room let alone represent.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Canadianbacon, you have been pretty forthcoming about the IMBA experience your Sedona club has had. You seem to feel you have a right to tell the story. I don't know how you come by that belief but I won't question it. I have found your contribution to ring faithfully rendered and be very valuable to me and my group.
> 
> Setting that aside, your method is extremely expository of what _could be_ considered private information. That is for each of us, as individuals and as leaders who may be assigned confidences, to decide. It may not concede to demands for openness in some cases as that right may not be ours or it simply may not be our style. From your fluid and obviously good-humored style of writing, I''m guessing you share pretty freely.
> 
> ...


You express things much more diplomatically than I do.


----------



## CANADIANBACON (Sep 25, 2005)

Berkeley Mike:

Regarding your comments about the right to "tell the story", I'm not sure what you mean.
What I have consciously chosen to do is to share candid, detailed, information about our experiences out of a sense of honesty and responsibility as a mountain bike advocate.

As I'm sure you now see I was quite surprised when our Chapter Charter was terminated without any prior written notice, or public membership meeting. I had incorrectly though that IMBA would have had several non-punitive mechanisms/processes in place for Chapter mentoring, conflict resolution, and most importantly, mediation between members of IMBA's staff and local advocates who come to find that they do not see eye to eye on certain issues.

Access to historical data can be one of the best, most intellectually honest ways to make sure that we do not make the same mistakes twice. I am certain that we can agree that re-inventing the wheel is not a good use of time and that borrowing and utilizing applicable best practices from other scenarios is intelligent. I view the sharing of detailed information, both positive and negative regarding IMBA's Chapter program as an ad-hoc, public audit/quality review process (think Boeing 9000, Sixth Sigma, or Chris King's visual mfg process.). 

Let there be no mistake, I value off-line discussions and the different types of relationships and understandings that they can yield. No debate here. I have to be honest though, when I read kapusta's next few posts I felt that his tone and his offer seemed incongruent and I just didn't feel comfortable reaching out to him. That said, we are both passionate mountain bike advocates and neither of us should be judged exclusively by what we post on a forum.

As much as I will agree that the quality of relationship on a forum is far inferior to that of a real-time interaction I can not agree that “the value of real-time interaction for an hour between very busy people far out-steps anything one might accomplish on this forum in any reasonable amount of time.”

As I and many others are learning forum posts live as long as the website that allows them to be published. They often reach many more people than the original participants in the thread. I have personally found value in posts several years old from forums such as this one.

I don't know if you are directing your comment about things being “hidden” specifically at me. I am simply pointing out that there seems to be a lack of transparency on the subject. As for attempts being made to “bridal” people into sharing information that they do not wish to, all I can say is that each of us has a choice to share or not share for their own reasons. I certainly have not shared all that has gone on.

I too do not believe that anyone has the right to information about me. I can't speak to the comment “or anyone I represent” as I am not sure we have that kind of choice anymore/right now. That decision seems to be being made for us.

Thank you for your supportive comments towards my community. We can use all of the support we can get.

I very much appreciate your articulate and honest commentary on this thread. You have communicated complex ideas and provided valuable insights, and most importantly done so in a very positive manner. We would all be blessed to have you as part of the leadership team of our local advocacy organization.

Much respect.

CB


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Transparency is an interesting idea and its currently popular political usage is usually in service of an agenda competing with other agendas. In this case transparency makes reference to access to information about people, or groups of people through, representative elements from those self-same bodies.

Speaking personally about an issue as it directly effects one requires permission only from oneself. Personally speaking about a group is something on the order of an analysis, critique, or opinion. Everyone has an opinion but for myself I am pretty picky about who's opinion to which I lend credence. 

Speaking as an appointed/elected/hired representative of a group and its content must meet a different set of criteria. One cannot speak as a person but as a spokesperson for the group. The organization has certain criteria for what it shares publicly, formally or informally, to what depth, to what detail, and a representative of that group must work within that unless given permission to do otherwise. Presuming upon a greater freedom with information without sanction from that body is breaks a trust. As such info from those quarters can seem general and lacking the satisfaction of "nitty-gritty" so-to-speak. 

If you look back to my description of a pretty major meeting of advocates you can see an example of that. There is no particular attribution and info is quite general but representative. I do not have permission from any of the participants to share the particulars of a private and confidential meeting where ideas were freely discussed. Things said there are done with confidence that the context of the moment fills in what cannot be directly said, that goodwill balms rough edges, and missteps are forgiven. Info like that taken out of context, especially in these Twitterblathering days, can cause real harm.

Your form of bridling seems to lose its toxic identity by virtue of an appeal to the greater good (for which you have your own definition) of access to information. You definitely use it for leverage, in a hurt-speak sort of way. In some sense it blows right past recognition as it us couched with such political ease, as nearly apparent and a fait accompli, that not sharing is seen as harmful and detrimental to some greater good. Back in the day a similar tack was used with different words; "man, don't be so uptight." That is a manipulation, an attempt at an end-around. The downside to such a technique is that it can often work and the person upon whom it worked ends up feeling used and feeling sense of betrayal. So...bridaling...yep...plain and simple.

From your manner of speech it seems that your relationship with your group is seen as pretty informal. From that position what I have described above about representation can seem a bulwark against free information flow. Well...maybe you are right. Yet confidentiality is not without price. Consideration may be the price of intimacy. A lack of consideration breeds questions of trust.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

CANADIANBACON said:


> I have to be honest though, when I read kapusta's next few posts I felt that his tone and his offer seemed incongruent and I just didn't feel comfortable reaching out to him.


My offer (which I made several months ago earlier in the thread and repeated a few days ago) was and is completely sincere.

As far as my tone _after_ you chastised me for making the offer: What exactly did you expect?


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

BTW, CB, I like your writing style. It is a pleasure to read.


----------



## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Bottom line,what makes an IMBA chapter successful is what all of our discussions hs been about agree or disagree on some points like open discloser on public forums.a few chapters around our county have failed or are about to fail and have even been approached by another club to join forces because of the in-house bickering and board members dictator like control and there unwillingness not to be inclusive with members and share info.so what make a chapter successful,let me share our approach and what has worked for us so far.

Our mission statement is: protect our area and trail for Mtn bike use but be all inclusive with other members and user groups,keep bureaucracy and red tape to a minimum,and most important "ride our bikes"!

All eight of our board members bring something unique to the
successfull running of our chapter and all trust each others role with minimal discussion during meetings,we throw it on the table look at pro
and cons come to a consensus vote and move on.

We are all inclusive with all user groups and have reached out to 
runners,bikers and equestrians.in thanks to all of the work we have done 
to protect,improve and develop our trail system some have joined 
BAMBA in support.our goal is two hundred members by end of year and 
are well on are way to that goal if not succeed it.

We have had several membership drives and member 
meetings,meet,greet and ride party open to all user groups and have a 
member bash next month all paid for through the chapter.this has been 
tremendously successful in our membership drive.

We invest in merchandise,jackets,tee shirts,hoodies and decals and have several bike shops carrying our merchandise who are also paid sponsors 
to BAMBA.this really helps bring in revenue.

We are involved with kids programs,rails to trails,sheriffs department,good for PR and gets more notice from city and county 
officials which really helps opens doors to earning credibility,trust and help smooth the way ultimately for trail development and a new skills 
park we just proposed and have gotten a preliminary ok to proceed.our goal it to make these open public land areas an asset and a destination instead of something they could and have proposed to selling off to 
bring in revenue for the cashed strapped city.

This is what works for us and has been surprisingly easy and fun to accomplish and we have only been an official chapter since late 
winter.hope and wish all chapters great successes and luck!


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

The Chapter program is about tools for developing advocacy club assets, for a price, with a promise of future support.

Is the price for the tools, and the promise, worth the price?


----------



## CANADIANBACON (Sep 25, 2005)

Berkeley Mike, techfersure and everyone else who has weighed in on this thread:

I think we all agree that mtbr.com is not the right place for ALL types of communications or information. What I hope everyone has begun to recognize is that this digital medium is currently one of a few, free and open public spaces where a story like the one in Sedona can be told, discussed and debated amongst our peers.

Yes. At times this medium will not be convenient, clean and tidy for people like me, groups like the SMBC, or organizations like IMBA. That said, I hope through the many posts here that it has become become obvious that I do not find value in what some see as 'digital mud-slinging'. What each of us need to keep in mind is that this medium, for better or for worse, will be shaped by the way in which each of us chooses to use it.

With regard to the IMBA Chapter program, thanks for helping to make mtbr.com a constructive and safe place for discussion of ideas that can and do have REAL impact and value in the analog world.

I have several significant questions that I would appreciate the larger community weighing in on.


Preamble:
Each year, IMBA goes to the Bike Industry and D.C.. They lobby and seek as much money as they can get through donations, grants, memberships, partnerships etc. IMBA would not be successful in receiving ANY money from the Bike Industry or the U.S. Government if they did not have all of us members/constituents. Therefore IMBA's members make IMBA's funding possible.

Question:
So, why doesn't IMBA have a transparent mechanism that keep them accountable to their membership? And for the record, NO... IMBA's Chapter Congress does not constitute this mechanism for obvious reasons.

Preamble:
IMBA's funding activities seek to tie-up the majority of the money available for mountain bike adovcacy, making IMBA the 800 pound gorilla of mountain bike advocacy. Between IMBA's funding and it's M.O.U.'s (that can constrain it and it's Chapters from speaking honestly and openly about diverging interests with land management agencies such as the USFS)

Question:
Does IMBA's current trajectory as the dominant mountain bike advocacy organization in North America constitute a mountain bike advocacy monopoly? and does this trend threaten smaller, bottom-up, grass-roots, local mountain bike advocacy organizations (advocacy that is responsive to local needs) through assimilation and or domination in the near future?

Why does IMBA continue to employ/promote a top-down hierarchical, command/control strategy that subordinates Chapters when they could be encouraging and empowering them by providing seats at the "round table" (analog or virtual) and fostering innovation and direct participation?

Lastly, As per Berkeley Mike's last post comment about tools: Why does IMBA continue to focus on developing and owning cost intensive, complicated businesses (such as Mapping and Destination Marketing)? Have they lost their way, confused their priorities, and confused mountain bike advocacy with intellectual property and tourism? Most importantly, before embarking in these new businesses, shouldn't IMBA be focusing on leveraging the power of the asset they current have (and in my opinion their greatest resource) their membership? This could easily be accomplished through the creation of 'crowd sourcing' TOOLS that permit the 'sharing' of knowledge, coordination of efforts, and collaboration.

Example:
In stead of interrupting IMBA's staff each time an issue comes up, why aren't individual IMBA members, affiliated Clubs, and Chapters encouraged to login and participate in the creation and management of a 'knowledgebase' along the lines of Wikipedia?

This 'knowledgebase' would offer 'tools' such as "Boilerplate legal docs", "Frequently Encountered Issues" and a coordinated list of "Successful Outcomes & Solutions", and most importantly back links to contact info for those local folks on the ground who actually were successful/made it happen.

Our membership fees and local issues have certainly served to create a body of knowledge that IMBA now "owns" on these subjects. I think that this body of knowledge really belongs to IMBA's membership and should be 'held in trust' and administrated by IMBA... but not 'controlled and owned'.

These ideas have been proven out elsewhere, are intelligent, are constructive, and reasonable suggestions for an organization like IMBA. This is why I contacted Mike Van Abel and discussed/suggested them OVER 3 YEARS AGO! Unfortunately, the fact that none of these suggestions has been implemented has identified another area within IMBA that needs development/improvement; the incentivization of sharing solutions and suggestions.

An organization that does not have a mechanism in place, that rewards it's members for sending great ideas and solutions 'up the ladder' is effectively disincnetivizing exactly the kind of behavior that fosters exponential growth and innovation. Just look to the for-profit world. Those company's that are thriving have embraced this concept.

As I have stated elsewhere, the SMBC's situation, although frustrating should be viewed as an opportunity. It is an opportunity for the SMBC to become more resourceful and resilient and do better mountain bike advocacy without some of the constraints that we had been operating under. More importantly it is an opportunity for IMBA to learn and make the necessary changes so that they can do better mountain bike advocacy. In my opinion IMBA needs to get back on track and put their members first.

What I am completely STOKED about is how many passionate mountain bike advocates seem to be so deeply engaged. It gives me great hope for the future.

Thank you and keep up the great work!
CB


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

> Why does IMBA continue to employ/promote a top-down hierarchical, command/control strategy that subordinates Chapters when they could be encouraging and empowering them by providing seats at the "round table" (analog or virtual) and fostering innovation and direct participation?


I guess this must vary greatly from place to place, but our experience with the IMBA has not felt "_top-down hierarchical command and control_" at all. They have been a tool we use. They come help when we need them.

I will say that it was frustrating in the past when a local public land managers would hire IMBA Trail Solutions for a projects and not really consult the mtb community much, but in this sense, being an IMBA chapter has helped keep us in the loop and at the planning table. If anything, becoming a chapter has shifted more of the voice to the local mtb community than before.

But again, this is probably specific to our case. We were not a well organized influential group going into the chapter program with IMBA.

Regarding building the knowledge base from the membership, I don't know what you are specifically referring to, but I think the MTB Project (the mapping project) is an effort to do that. I am not completely convinced on how well it is going to work for the purpose I see it trying to fill, but I will say that i have found those running it to be VERY open to ideas from those of us who were beta testing it early on, and many changes (previous and upcoming) are due to rank and file member contributors.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Good stuff; much trickier than building trails and not nearly as fun.


----------



## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

My experience doesn't have me feeling some extremes expressed in these posts. 

Our chapter no way has the membership levels we were sold but that could be the fault or enthusiasm of those who did the initial work to get chapter status. It always seemed to me that a chapter was like a club and still has to do good work and aim for best practices in what they do. 

It would be a great service, and maybe in IMBA's interest to have templates or training for chapters to run well. This is one I see being on the boards of two sport related clubs.

We may have a great measure of what chapter status does (benefits of) where I'm trail steward. The property is threatened by a development proposal. The land manager I report to tasked me to reach out to our IMBA rep as well as state bike federation for support and help. This is a case where the local band of dirt diggers and advocates need help to save a property and support the land manager who sticks neck out for our sport. I hope I'm not wrong to think the higher level IMBA staff should have resources and lend a hand.


----------



## evilsjg (Jul 28, 2008)

kapusta said:


> ... but I think the MTB Project (the mapping project) is an effort to do that.


MTB Project is IMBA using their influence built in large part because of their non-profit nature to direct individual contributions to a for-profit entity with plans to capitalize and profit off of those contributions. IMBA screwed the pooch on MTB Project and is burning everyone in the process.


----------



## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

evilsjg said:


> MTB Project is IMBA using their influence built in large part because of their non-profit nature to direct individual contributions to a for-profit entity with plans to capitalize and profit off of those contributions. IMBA screwed the pooch on MTB Project and is burning everyone in the process.


That first sentence is hard for me to understand, and I read it many times. Would you mind trying to clarify what you are saying here. I'm not trolling, but very interested. Our group is discussing whether or not to use MTB Project; we are on the fence regarding time spent vs benefits to do so.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

evilsjg said:


> MTB Project is IMBA using their influence built in large part because of their non-profit nature to direct individual contributions to a for-profit entity with plans to capitalize and profit off of those contributions. IMBA screwed the pooch on MTB Project and is burning everyone in the process.


MTB Project is compiling user-generated content to create a database that IMBA feels will be of use to mtb'ers. Yes, they MIGHT be able to monetize it at some point (if it in fact turns out to be useful). IMBA sees this project as a good thing for mountain biking, so they support it, and works with them.

So what?

How is anyone being burned here?


----------



## CANADIANBACON (Sep 25, 2005)

kapusta said:


> MTB Project is compiling user-generated content to create a database that IMBA feels will be of use to mtb'ers. Yes, they MIGHT be able to monetize it at some point (if it in fact turns out to be useful). IMBA sees this project as a good thing for mountain biking, so they support it, and works with them.
> 
> So what?
> 
> How is anyone being burned here?


I'm pretty sure that evilsjg is implying that IMBA is able to use thier not-for-profit status to promote one for-profit organization over others, and that IMBA could benefit directly by doing this.

I find this discussion very interesting. I have personally witnessed professionally created retail trail maps being displaced by relatively high quality GPS tracks and maps, created by amatuers, shared peer to peer via the Internet for FREE!

This is happening at a surprising rate and threatens the local land managers vineer of control as well as the cartographer's business model; in the same way that the music industrsy has been threatened by online file sharing.

The future of trail information distribution is user created map content, distributed via file sharing sites. Unfortunately the organization(s) who's business model(s) will 'win' most likely will not be bike advocacy organizations. The most successful trail info sites will be the best at facilitating the sharing of gps and map files, easily, quickly, and with maximum privacy,... for FREE. Quality will be assured through reputation systems.

This is why I asked this question in my last post:


> Why does IMBA continue to focus on developing and owning cost intensive, complicated businesses (such as Mapping and Destination Marketing)? Have they lost their way, confused their priorities, and confused mountain bike advocacy with intellectual property and tourism?


CB


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

I see valid questions about: 

1) possession of public contributed information.
2) the fuzzy line between fundraising and for-profit actions.
3) the interaction between 1&2.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I see valid questions about:
> 
> 1) possession of public contributed information.
> 2) the fuzzy line between fundraising and for-profit actions.
> 3) the interaction between 1&2.


So, what are the questions?


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

I'm seeing a few comments about the MTB Project that indicates either
a) a lack of understanding of MTB Project
or
b) a lack of understanding about how all other for-profit user-generated content sites work, and how much they are already integrated into countless non-profit's day to day operations.

Do the people expressing concern about IMBA's encouraging people to contribute to a for-profit user-generated content site (MTB Project) also have issues with IMBA having a Facebook group and sponsoring a forum about trail building and advocacy on MTBR?


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Perhaps you could explain it.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I am contributing quite a bit to MTB Project. I just went on a ride today to collect data on a trail to submit to the site.

My club wanted to participate but until I came by they didn't have anyone with the knowledge to contribute.

I have added several local trail systems and spend a lot of time getting quality listings for the trails. We plan to leverage the listings on our own website to help visitors find local trails and find their way on those trails. We want people who ride and want to ride in our state to find what they need on our site.

But this project is a tiny portion of our overall goal with regards to mapping. Through this process, we are creating a MASSIVE internal database of trails, which also includes hiking trails, horse trails, and fire roads in places we may not even currently have trails. We want to use this database to help us develop and track projects from the conceptual phase through the approval process.

We currently have many more landowners who want more trails and we don't have enough conceptual stuff to start writing approvals to start getting permission. We also want to start thinking more big picture in getting access to specific properties or existing trails in order to build connections. Those battles will result in fewer miles of trail overall but gaining connections between trail networks might be worth the effort.

But putting together solid proposals for this requires multiple options and scouted routes through areas we want to access.

Building our own web GIS with trail data for existing trails would be a pretty serious endeavor. Why should we duplicate all that time, energy, and expense if someone has already built the framework and only needs data that we are already collected?

I do not think mtb project will replace the professionally produced for-sale trail maps that many clubs use for fundraisers. First of all, a quality paper map is a good idea to carry regardless of whether you are using a phone or gps on the trail. Equipment fails for many different reasons so having a fallback option is always wise. Second, mtb project heavily simplifies uploaded data to keep its database streamlined. It is mostly good enough but those wanting high quality maps probably won't be satisfied.

The site is simply another tool helping people who want to visit the trails and making the information public, in my opinion, is good business. I have never been a fan of trail organizations who keep super tight grips on maps for the trails they maintain and charge for maps. This is traditionally how many hiking groups operate and some had death grips on data that IMO, serves as an access barrier. I think this is a problem when trails are primarily on public land. In the USA, map data on public land is primarily considered public domain and government agencies provide it free. Some make the digital data easy to get but others require FOIA paperwork to get it. Some data is exempt from this process but mostly not. I have a problem when a group tries to call itself the only source for that data and charges princely sums for it.

IMO, providing free maps of the trails is another tangible service a club can offer to riders to help gain memberships and donations beyond basic memberships. It helps increase ridership and therefore the base of folks you can solicit for money and work hours for your club. Just like negotiating access to trails, having fun events like bike festivals and campouts, encouraging racing, and setting up a booth at local events.

But you need people to leverage those things. If people aren't talking about what the club does and showing potential members how membership benefits them, then your work will get you squat. And IMBA regional staff ARE there to help clubs do better in that regard. You just have to ask and be available to receive the answer. That's the whole point behind the chapter program. Having that professional staff to help the volunteers do their jobs better.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

CANADIANBACON said:


> I'm pretty sure that evilsjg is implying that IMBA is able to use thier not-for-profit status to promote one for-profit organization over others, and that IMBA could benefit directly by doing this.


"Benefit" how? And what is the problem IMBA getting such benefit?



> This is why I asked this question in my last post:
> Why does IMBA continue to focus on developing and owning cost intensive, complicated businesses (such as Mapping and Destination Marketing)?


IMBA does not own MTB Project. THey do not run MTB Project. The platform it is based on was already developed by the company that runs and owns it for a similar site for climbers.



> Have they lost their way, confused their priorities, and confused mountain bike advocacy with intellectual property and tourism?


IMO, no.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Thanks, Nate.

I've been involved with this since last fall, I think ours was one of the first chapters to get involved in the beta testing. I am thinking along the same lines that this is PART of our mapping strategy, but not a replacement for more detailed maps and info. Of course, MTB Project being so easy to contribute to means it is likely going to be the first one to see any fruits of our labor. I see this as a supplement to what we will do. If someone finds the ride on MTB Project, they can link to our site and more info about the trails, whatever we want to provide.

A few things I would like to clear up in regards to some comments I am seeing in this thread in regards to MTB Project and IMBA's "non-profit" status:

1- IMBA is a non-profit. However, that does not mean they can't make money on anything. It just means that the money stays in the organization and be used for the mission of the organization, rather than paying out profits or dividends to investors. IMBA sells socks, t-shirts and stickers, and even runs a trial design and building business. Even if IMBA did stand to gain financially from MTB Project, so what?

2- Point # 1 above is not that relevant to MTB Project, because IMBA does not run it, own it, or stand to make money off of it, AFAIK. IMBA sees this project as one that will benefit riders, and so they support it. It's really that simple. I don't know whether IMBA is compensated for the time it's GIS specialist spends with the project, but even if not, it is money well spent on IMBA's part for the benefit it sees for it's members. Plenty of non-profits offer free or reduced-cost services to for-profit businesses if doing so will fulfill the non-profit's mission. 

3- MTB Project offers something very different from something like MapMyRide and the like. While the content (in this case gps tracks and descriptions) is user generated, it is curated and organized at the LOCAL level when possible (this is where chapter and club involvement come in). The folks at the top level review things to make sure that the formatting is correct, basically another level of QC. This is more like Wikipedia than some peer to peer file sharing service or a user generated free-for-all like most of the other public mapping applications. You get some consistency this way, and the info is more integrated in a usable form.

4- While Users are not "rated" (no reputation system), trails and rides are by users of the site. So even if the folks at the local club are out of touch with what people REALLY like to ride, this will help correct that. 

5- Just because the site has rights to what you post on it, does not mean you cannot use your own info somewhere else. Just because you post up a GPS track to MTB project and give a description does not mean you cannot do so somewhere else or for your own (or your clubs) profit.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

kapusta said:


> Thanks, Nate.
> 
> I've been involved with this since last fall, I think ours was one of the first chapters to get involved in the beta testing. I am thinking along the same lines that this is PART of our mapping strategy, but not a replacement for more detailed maps and info. Of course, MTB Project being so easy to contribute to means it is likely going to be the first one to see any fruits of our labor. I see this as a supplement to what we will do. If someone finds the ride on MTB Project, they can link to our site and more info about the trails, whatever we want to provide.


Absolutely. I've been accused by the reviewers on occasion of providing "too much" info to MTB Project, so I've had to thin out the details I provide to the site. So for our club's purposes, we intend to use MTB Project's map widgets on our site for the data, and then provide additional information internally. We have a pretty robust trail conditions system on our site that gets a lot of traffic, and we will combine that with MTB Project's maps and the additional detail that MTB Project doesn't want increasing clutter on their site.

The club still works with professional cartographers to produce high quality printed maps of some of the more popular "destination" trails in the area for distribution and sale around the state. MTB Project will not replace that.

Additionally, the club is testing out the app MAPRIKA on one local trail for trail map distribution. MAPRIKA also allows smartphone users to submit geotagged photos of trail condition/maintenance issues and the club is testing to see if the system works well enough for our uses. I am not involved in that project. I've got enough on my plate with the trail database and MTB Project.

These are all just components of one of our goals of providing information to trail users. We are working to do better at that elsewhere, too.

Clubs that lag with providing information are going to have problems with people seeing the value in memberships and donating money/time/products/services.


----------



## CANADIANBACON (Sep 25, 2005)

*Mountain Bikers has IMBA lost it's soul?*

I found this link informative, interesting, and relevant given my own experiences, participating in this thread where my and others comments were sometimes greated with incredulous and deffensive replies.

Mountain Bikers, Has IMBA Lost it's Soul?

Maybe the overly simplistic criticism and attempts at marginalizing dissent as "conspiracy theororists". "a small minority" and the like can be replaced by more meaningful discussioln here and elsewhere and in the end catalyze positive change.

Sincerely,
CB


----------



## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

I wonder if the author of that article will attempt to use the wildly popular Trail Solutions built trail here on Maui when they hold their camp here at >$750 a pop...?


----------

