# Low cost Oxy-Acetylene torch recommendations.



## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

I am finally ready to pull the trigger on buying the tools to start frame #00.

What recommendations do you have for a simple first torch set?

I've been watching the local craigslist but not much coming up for used set-up.

Also looking for an online source to decent files.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

Good thread discussion of files and the plummeting quality of commonly available ones for framebuilders over at;

hand files atmo -


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## whydomylegshurt? (Jul 28, 2004)

Personally I went with the Victor Fire Power torch set. It is nothing special but it works well and was only 250 bucks brand new. 

For files, I buy them through Snap On and have had good luck so far.


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

How bad are the "Victor type" or "Victor style" knock offs on ebay?

These things going to fail in a way that could cause my garage to burn down?


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## whydomylegshurt? (Jul 28, 2004)

I'm not an expert, but once I pulled my Fire Power torch out of the Victor box I couldn't tell the difference between it and the knock off. The guy at the welding shop told me they were made in the same factory (but how many times do you hear someone saying all bikes are made in the same Giant factory).


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

A Victor Fire Power torch served me very well for 3 years before I upgraded to a smaller Victor handle. I still dig it out and use it with the cutting head every so often. It still works without issue.


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## illcomm33 (May 10, 2006)

*Buy new and sell off what you don't need*

Congrats on getting to the purchasing point...I was just there so I want to share my 2 cents.

I opted to buy NEW since regulators seem to be something that you want working right. I figured that with about zero experience I wouldn't really be able to tell if something was going on with a used setup.

So I found a new Victor setup online (I can't seem to find the place I purchased it from) but the price was good. Ended up selling the cutting tip (which came in the set) on eBay which cut my purchase price about 1/3.

Hope this helps.


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## doug fattic (Mar 11, 2010)

Most kits sold in welding supply stores don't have what you will eventually want the most and have what you don't need. There have been numerous threads on this subject on various forums over the years. The consensus of those that started with a kit and went on to make several frames is that they wish they had bought the individual pieces that work best for building frames. Kits are marketed to those wanting/needing a cutting head which you will never use building a frame. 

For starters, get an aircraft style of torch. These are smaller and lighter and have the adjustable knobs at the top of the handle rather than the bottom. The hose fittings to them will be the smaller "A" rather than the larger "B". Examples would be the Victor J28 or Smith AW1A. The Purox W200 (by Estab) and Uniweld 71 are other aircraft model torch handles. Brazing frames requires subtle and slight hand motions and bigger torches make that more difficult. I recommend to my framebuilding class students that they bring their own equipment if they can. None of them want to use their bigger torch handles after they have tried my aircraft ones. 

One place you can save some money is on regulators. I prefer a very steady flame and use large diameter two stage regulators and am willing to pay for them. However small diameter single stage regulators are much cheaper and work even if the flame isn't as steady. 

For safety, you will get check valves in the lines (so the gases can't flow backwards) and flashback arrestors before the regulators (to stop a flame getting to the tanks). An extra expense accessory that everyone really likes is Smith Kevlar Hoses. There light weight and flexibility makes those slight hand motions easier to do. This is actually more valuable for beginners than pros. Rubber hoses resist being moved. Make sure you are buying the smallest 3/16" size rubber hoses with the proper size connectors to your equipment. From my regulator (which has B fittings) I have a flashback arrestor, 12 1/2' of 3/16" rubber hose, a check valve and Smith Kevlar hoses with the one end having a B fitting to the check valve and the other an A fitting to the J28 torch handle. I hang the hoses from the ceiling so they don't drag on the floor.


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## Typo_Knig (Aug 8, 2009)

This is the kit that I bought about a year and a half ago: Uniweld KL71-4

It uses the Uniweld 71 handle that Doug described. A universe better than the harbor freight shite I had. The tips that come with it are suitable for 99% of the frame building work I do.

The extras, although not necessary for my framebuilding, have come in handy for several other projects.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

there is a turbotorch J28 clone, the skh-7a turbotorch
I'm too lazy to look up what kit it comes with. It comes with bottles, but you can get it with regulators and tips on ebay for about $250. Haven't used the one I bought yet


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

@Doug: I didn't ask the question, but I am also looking to buy my first brazing setup. Thanks for the excellent information! That's more than I learned at UBI about equipment.


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Doug your info was exactly what I was looking for.

Once I had the names of a couple torches I found some of your other posts on the topic. great information.

Thank you for taking the time to share it.


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## fixxer (Jan 26, 2004)

I wanted to add my $0.02 to this discussion as I have been where you are and wasted some money along the way. I started with the cheapo torch kit from HF and it worked. But it was real fiddly and hard to adjust. The hoses were utter crap and that prompted me to start looking elsewhere. I heard about TM technologies around here and I really love my Meco midget torch. It ie easy to adjust and feels great in the hand. So easy to hold, no more aching forearms. Get the lightweight hoses too, makes for a very light and easy to use torch. It is totally worth the money in my opinion and not that much more expensive that the HF crap I started with.

Sometimes you save $ by spending a bit more up front and not having to replace everything a year down the line.


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## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

fixxer said:


> Sometimes you save $ by spending a bit more up front and not having to replace everything a year down the line.


As it relates to tools ... Wiser words have never been written.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

doug fattic said:


> Most kits sold in welding supply stores don't have what you will eventually want the most and have what you don't need. There have been numerous threads on this subject on various forums over the years. The consensus of those that started with a kit and went on to make several frames is that they wish they had bought the individual pieces that work best for building frames. Kits are marketed to those wanting/needing a cutting head which you will never use building a frame.
> 
> For starters, get an aircraft style of torch. These are smaller and lighter and have the adjustable knobs at the top of the handle rather than the bottom. The hose fittings to them will be the smaller "A" rather than the larger "B". Examples would be the Victor J28 or Smith AW1A. The Purox W200 (by Estab) and Uniweld 71 are other aircraft model torch handles. Brazing frames requires subtle and slight hand motions and bigger torches make that more difficult. I recommend to my framebuilding class students that they bring their own equipment if they can. None of them want to use their bigger torch handles after they have tried my aircraft ones.
> 
> ...


Doug,

On the Smith AW1, which tips do you use? They don't seem to have tip sizes I'm familiar with in standard style torches. I found this:









What leads me to believe that the 201 would be fine for almost anything frame related. I'm picking up my tanks (haven't chosen a size yet, will probably pick that at the LWS) this week and finally building out my brazing rig to complement my TIG machine. I'm hoping to do this just once based off this thread. I'm choosing the AW1A for the handle and the Kevlar hoses sound wonderful, so those as well. I'm considering the budget regulators to start but I'm leaning toward the dual stage regulators so that I only have to do this once but it sure does up the cost. This certainly isn't as expensive as the TIG stuff was, but top of the line does add up quickly.

Thanks for your thoughts on this thread. It really makes for a great place to start.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

There is a chart that compares the different sizes

I have the AW201-209. I think Doug recommends the AW201-AW205 to his students. I bought a set from someone that signed up for his course that didn't end up going. The bigger ones I bought because I wanted to use bronze on lugs. An AW205 doesn't quite have the heat output for that. A word of warning, you don't want to pull more acetylene than your tank can source.

I learned with a torch that was as long as my arm, and the smallest tip was probably about the size of an AW205, so I am biased towards larger tips. I think that as one becomes more experienced, larger tips make more sense because heat management is not an issue, being able to get more heat when you need it is the issue


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

unterhausen said:


> There is a chart that compares the different sizes
> 
> I have the AW201-209. I think Doug recommends the AW201-AW205 to his students. I bought a set from someone that signed up for his course that didn't end up going. The bigger ones I bought because I wanted to use bronze on lugs. An AW205 doesn't quite have the heat output for that. A word of warning, you don't want to pull more acetylene than your tank can source.
> 
> I learned with a torch that was as long as my arm, and the smallest tip was probably about the size of an AW205, so I am biased towards larger tips. I think that as one becomes more experienced, larger tips make more sense because heat management is not an issue, being able to get more heat when you need it is the issue


Nice chart! Thanks, that helps a lot. Yeah, I'd think that for braze ons I'd be ok with the AW201 but could see using a larger tip for seat tube sleeves and for post binders. I do tend to use a little hotter flame because I like to "get in and get out" to quote Ice-T. I like to put braze ons where they go, get the flame right in there and dab my silver and get right back out--almost like tacking with TIG really. All my brazing methods tend to borrow a lot from how TIG works--don't know if that's good or bad but it works well for me.

Well cool, I'll pick something up this weekend if the wife's plans for me don't change my plans for me too much. Thanks for the feedback. There are so many good hunks of info in this thread. I've got it bookmarked now because it's impossible to find in the search now--or it was at least. Next time Ice-T will pull it up


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## doug fattic (Mar 11, 2010)

The AW201 has a pretty small orifice and would be mostly suitable for doing braze-ons. I never use mine. In my class I start students out with the 203 (when they are using oxyacetylene) and when they can read and react faster to the heat indicators than they can graduate to the 205 for bigger joints. Personally I use the 205 most of the time and put on the 203 when doing something small like braze ons.

Student mostly prefer using propane with an oxygen concentrator (except for fillet brazed joints) and then there is a need to go up a couple of orifice sizes. Propane works a little better with a propane specific mixer/elbows and tips. In Ukraine when I am using propane, I just use the Smith AW1A torch handle with a 207 tip. The best option for propane is the Victor J-28 torch handle with a UN-J mixer elbow and a TEN-2 (or 3) tips. The Smith AW1A propane version is the AT-61 mixer/elbow that also requires their screw-on tip. Those tips don't have the recess that helps keep the flame attached like the Victor TEN tips


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## Smudgemo (Nov 30, 2005)

I've got the 205 and 207 tips (which seem to work fine for everything for me), but I wouldn't mind trying something smaller like a 203 for braze-ons. 

I will say that while (perhaps unfounded) the kevlar hoses scare me a bit for durability when compared to rubber hoses, they are so incredibly light and supple that it's almost like they aren't there. It's a fine trade-off to be more careful with them and I'd buy them again.

If you get a set of rubber hoses for some more length, get the ones rated for LP. You'll be tempted to unhook the BBQ tank for brazing at some point (speaking from experience...)


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## cdn-dave (Jan 6, 2007)

I've got a slightly used Smith No. 2 for sale if anyone's interested. With 1,3,5,7 tips.


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## briderdt (Dec 14, 2012)

Smudgemo said:


> If you get a set of rubber hoses for some more length, get the ones rated for LP. You'll be tempted to unhook the BBQ tank for brazing at some point (speaking from experience...)


I just bought Grade R hose... Am I screwed?


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## Smudgemo (Nov 30, 2005)

briderdt said:


> I just bought Grade R hose... Am I screwed?


Can't say - I just decided to be safe. The impression I got from the welding boards was along the lines of "eventually the LP will wreck the hose", and that's obviously not safe. I don't even know how much I'll use propane, but figured the investment in the proper hose was worthwhile.


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

unterhausen said:


> There is a chart that compares the different sizes
> 
> I have the AW201-209. I think Doug recommends the AW201-AW205 to his students. I bought a set from someone that signed up for his course that didn't end up going. The bigger ones I bought because I wanted to use bronze on lugs. An AW205 doesn't quite have the heat output for that. A word of warning, you don't want to pull more acetylene than your tank can source.
> 
> I learned with a torch that was as long as my arm, and the smallest tip was probably about the size of an AW205, so I am biased towards larger tips. I think that as one becomes more experienced, larger tips make more sense because heat management is not an issue, being able to get more heat when you need it is the issue


This link says it's going to put Malware on my computer- 404 Site Not Found. Is it reposted somewhere?


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

bummer, looks like something bad happened. It gives you a 404 error if you ignore the malware warning. The chart has been replicated, search for tips.xls


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

alshead said:


> This link says it's going to put Malware on my computer- 404 Site Not Found. Is it reposted somewhere?


Try this wayback machine link.

http://web.archive.org/web/20110721005436/http://bikesmithdesign.com/Welding/tips.html


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## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

Hey! This is good stuff. What Doug says about the Uniweld 71 torch is accurate. It works great for the price. I got the handle Ameriflame MD71TH 6-Inch Light Duty Welding Handle for General Purpose Heating, Brazing, Welding and Other Flame Processes - Amazon.com here for $39 and some tips and found it was much better than the meco midget which I loved, but wouldn't get enough heat for bigger projects like a fork crown. For the money go the uniweld route. Or victor for a little more $
I did several bikes with the midget, but needed more heat for forks. Now that I've done several bikes and forks with the uniweld, I wouldn't go back.
cheers
andy walker


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## doug fattic (Mar 11, 2010)

I got the bad news on the Classic Rendezvous list that Mark Stonich of Bikesmith Design - the framebuilder/provider of the welding tip comparison chart - was seriously hurt when struck from the rear while riding his bicycle last Wednesday. Thoughts and prayers for his recovery.

I just got back from Ukraine where we do our charity bicycle project. This time I took over a Victor J-28 torch handle with a UN-J mixer/elbow and several sizes of TEN tips. I was reminded again that having the right equipment for propane just works better than acetylene equipment forced into service with propane. The Victor stuff lights easier and has less noise. Pervious to this over there I was using a Smith AW1A torch handle with a AW207 tip. The Smith would have worked better with a AT-61 elbow designed for propane than the AT-60 I was using. I do like the recess in the tip Victor has and Smith does not. 

One of my framebuilding class students bought a Uniweld 71 torch handle from Amazon and it came with a faulty valve. He didn't bother to try and get if fixed but got the Victor equipment instead. I suppose the lesson is that its modest price is really attractive but there is some risk not everyone will work. Mine has been working fine.


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## Mark_BC (Sep 19, 2012)

Does anyone use an inline auto-fluxer? My frame building course used one but I don't see any mention of it elsewhere.


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## krus (Jul 19, 2019)

Hi, does anyone know the difference between the Smith AW1 and the AW1A? I can't seem to find anything online. 
Thanks,
Chris.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

krus said:


> Hi, does anyone know the difference between the Smith AW1 and the AW1A? I can't seem to find anything online.
> Thanks,
> Chris.


The AW1 you refer to is most likely the AW10 which has the valves located at the rearmost portion of the torch body. The AW1A has forward mounted valves.


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## krus (Jul 19, 2019)

Just double checked the photo and the valves are at the tip end. Is possible that the person that's selling just didn't write the "A". 
Decided to purchase anyway so will see when it turns up.


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