# IMBA Trail Solutions Video



## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

Shoulda stuck with just doing advocacy...

Hitler learns his staff has hired IMBA Trail Solutions - YouTube


----------



## YRG (Feb 26, 2012)

Awesome!
Love it!


----------



## aero901 (Apr 11, 2012)

There is an ironic double meaning you may have missed here.


----------



## YRG (Feb 26, 2012)

aero901 said:


> There is an ironic double meaning you may have missed here.


Pretty sure that a double digit IQ could find the Irony of Hitler calling Trail Solutions Nazis.


----------



## aero901 (Apr 11, 2012)

Then it must take at least a triple digit IQ to realize what I was actually referring to.  The video shows those shouting the loudest about "sanitized" trails depicted as Hitler; the most Nazi of all Nazis.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Meaning-schmeaning. I loved it.


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Godwin's Law: Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

I disagree with the suggestion that Godwin's Law applies here. That reference relies upon an inappropriate usage of Nazi or Nazis which is used like a race card, a slap, a death blow. The kick here is not necessarily who is the Nazi but that Nazi are used to represent an absolute point of view; that is what makes it comic. 

What makes this even more poignant is the evolution that the main character goes through in working to an understanding which makes Godwin's law even less applicable.


----------



## drew p (Jan 20, 2012)

I liked it too and it made me chuckle, but don't necessarily agree with it. Trail solutions hasn't built anything in my neck of the woods (Santa Cruz/Bay Area) but from what I have seen and heard lately they have been building some very cool trails. Around here the beginner friendly, non-technical, low grade stuff is what is missing (we have plenty of steep legacy logging/ranching routes that have become our multi-use trail network). Rerouting/rebuilding unsustainable eroded fall line stuff will happen more and more as land managers are more conscious about sediment runoff from the lands they manage and trail use increases as mountain biking becomes more and more popular. It is pretty ridiculous to blame Trail Solutions for this trend. I'd rather have trail solutions operator on the SWECO to do a reroute in our local parks than the state park maintenance guy who grades the fire roads. Trail solutions probably grew out of the fact that 15 years ago there were very few if any mountain bike oriented trail contractors and they saw the need. Now there is a lot more folks out there doing it (many seem to be former IMBA folks). I could see how other contractors could be upset with IMBA using trailbuilding fund monies to subsidize the Trail Solutions crews. However, our local club had a subsidized visit from a Trail Solutions staff member to help with some design and layout training when we were starting design of our first new trail and we appreciated the discounted service and that benefited us. Is that a bad thing?

I could see people complaining about work done on Trail Care Crew days. In my experience having hosted one and participated in a couple, they are usually hastily planned trails built or modified by lots of inexperienced volunteers with over simplified training (by necessity) and not enough supervision. Tough situation to get super high quality work out of but a good starting point for developing interest and at least having people think a little bit about how water flows down trails. I'd say 96% of mountain bikers don't even notice. Most of our best volunteers didn't really do trailwork until the TCC event we had a few years ago, so again even if the work we did wasn't great it was the catalyst for our club growing it's trail building capability.

I don't agree with everything IMBA does but I don't see anyone else filling the role they fill in the advocacy community. Mountain bike advocacy will always be a local thing done by local people and anyone who expects IMBA do to much directly in their neck of the woods with the small staff and budget they have need to realign their expectations. Support them but also tell them how you feel, and don't be upset when they don't do exactly what you want, they still are making being a mountain biker better in my opinion even if they really don't help us directly at all.


----------



## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

drew p, you nailed it.

PS. That video was stupid.


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

drew p said:


> I don't agree with everything IMBA does but I don't see anyone else filling the role they fill in the advocacy community. Mountain bike advocacy will always be a local thing done by local people and anyone who expects IMBA do to much directly in their neck of the woods with the small staff and budget they have need to realign their expectations. Support them but also tell them how you feel, and don't be upset when they don't do exactly what you want, they still are making being a mountain biker better in my opinion even if they really don't help us directly at all.


There has been a lot of chatter about IMBA over the last week or so, which I've followed without inserting myself into. I'm in total agreement with this - well put.


----------



## peteuga (Dec 10, 2004)

Without IMBA we would all be riding eroded horse/atv trails. If you like eroded trails go ride down the power line trails made by ATVs, I am sure there are some near where you live. There is a trail like that 200 yards from my house and I have ridden down it once. Keep up the good work IMBA. 

Video was funny however.


----------



## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

peteuga said:


> Without IMBA we would all be riding eroded horse/atv trails. If you like eroded trails go ride down the power line trails made by ATVs, I am sure there are some near where you live. There is a trail like that 200 yards from my house and I have ridden down it once. Keep up the good work IMBA.
> 
> Video was funny however.


That's a pretty blanket statement. I personally have built over 50 miles of well designed, legal, sustainable and fun singletrack. All without any help or input from IMBA. Last summer I had the opportunity to ride a trail I built 45 years ago. It's part of a much larger system that I advocated and it's in as good shape now as the day I built it.

I'm not slamming IMBA because I've never had any dealings with them. Just saying that trails can be advocated and built without them. That being said, I can't imagine that having a large voice like IMBA can be a bad thing for mountain biking in general. I'd be happy to throw them the $35 or whatever it costs for a membership even if I never rode anything they were involved with.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Like drew p sez; "made me chuckle". (but the first time around Hitler with 42% Maker's Mark made me laugh)

In drawing comparisons I don't see much a connection to IMBA being "trail nazis"; those BetterRide sympathizers are more like the fascist instigators of that period IMHO. ("It's OK to build rogue trails" = "It's OK to break the windows of Jewish businesses")

I'm not a big fan of IMBA either; but it's the best we got.

If anything about IMBA is fascist it's more like PM Neville Chamberlain and his "Peace for our time" debacle. (I don't like some of the alliances they've made)

IMBA needs to find a Winston Churchill to steer the ship...


----------



## peteuga (Dec 10, 2004)

There are many well intended trail builders that would love to build the best trail they can. IMBA just provides knowledge about erosion. There is no need for each of these builders to try and reinvent the wheel when it comes to erosion. I 1-2 day IMBA trail class can save that builder lots of heartache down the road, I know they have for me. You can still be creative in what is built. 

Grade Reversal
Half Rule
Out slope 
Mineral Soil
Clinometer

All I am saying is that IMBA teaches this and they are very powerful things to know that the well intended uneducated builder will know nothing about.


----------



## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

the trail I am involved with was negotiated, planned and built within a National Forest with zero direct IMBA assistance. I imagine that is mostly how it must be done. IMBA's value to us was the storehouse of knowledge. I also speculate that many grievances against IMBA are from people who incorrectly assume IMBA will come in and do the heavy lifting for them.

I also see many local trails described on the internet as "IMBA built or rerouted by IMBA" when I know for a fact IMBA had nothing to do with the construction of said trail. I can only assume these naive posters hear the phrase "IMBA guidelines" and assume IMBA dumbed down "their" trail.

If IMBA could do one thing better it would be make an effort distinguishing between trails and trail work done directly by IMBA vs work completed by IMBA chapters and Affiliate clubs. This distinction would go a long way towards educating trail users who is actually building and changing the trails.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

IMBA recently asked for stories about trail work. We have couple of good ones this year and thought of offering them as we really like our IMBA guy (it has nothing to do with IMBA.) We decided against it, though, as saw that IMBA would just get the cache even though they had nothing to do with our work.


----------



## mtbty (Jun 15, 2012)

From my experiences I can that without IMBA and TS we can build better trails, more of them and build them to withstand all season riding in a forest that gets 100"+ of rain a year. Plus for each inch of rain the trail sees it also sees around a 1000 tire tracks too. I honestly don't think IMBA TS could even pull off what we are doing given what resources we are working with.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Is it really the case that IMBA wants to steal the "cachet"? I've interacted with IMBA plenty as part of various local clubs in both CO and UT and I've never gotten the sense that they care about anything but 1) getting people to build good trails and keep good trails open, and 2) keeping money coming in so they can do it. Maybe people don't like #2 but the bottom line is that to keep the doors open, you've gotta have money coming in. 

If a local club gets a trail built without their help I'd think they'd be happy to share the story of the advocacy/design/building/maintenance/etc. Am I wrong?

Maybe I'm just naive but I don't see IMBA as anything but what they say they are - there have certainly been times when I disagreed with their specific tactics or when I saw them fail at things and thought they could have done better - but I can't think of any organizations I agree with 100% of the time. To me, IMBA is an ally if you want them to be, or... nothing if you don't want them around. 

To me these posts saying "IMBA sucks because we built these awesome trails without them" are silly, because not every riding area has a well-organized, educated, dedicated crew of folks who can do everything from interact with local politicians to design trail to train crew leaders. If you don't need IMBA, that's awesome. But it doesn't mean nobody does.

YMMV, obviously.

-Walt


----------



## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

I agree with Mr Walt. I get the sense this IMBA bashing is a tempest in a teapot created by a half dozen or so.


----------



## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

You know, with the time and energy you spent on that, you could have started work on a nice video to advertize your local club


----------



## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

Walt said:


> Is it really the case that IMBA wants to steal the "cachet"? I've interacted with IMBA plenty as part of various local clubs in both CO and UT and I've never gotten the sense that they care about anything but 1) getting people to build good trails and keep good trails open, and 2) keeping money coming in so they can do it. Maybe people don't like #2 but the bottom line is that to keep the doors open, you've gotta have money coming in.
> 
> If a local club gets a trail built without their help I'd think they'd be happy to share the story of the advocacy/design/building/maintenance/etc. Am I wrong?
> 
> ...


+1

:thumbsup:

well said.


----------



## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

Berkeley Mike said:


> IMBA recently asked for stories about trail work. We have couple of good ones this year and thought of offering them as we really like our IMBA guy (it has nothing to do with IMBA.) We decided against it, though, as saw that IMBA would just get the cache even though they had nothing to do with our work.


Okay, we get it: you're not a fan. It seems you certainly feel the need to mark your territory, protect your turf.

Since you seem to have moved on from IMBA, why keep responding negatively in these threads?


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Glide the Clyde said:


> Okay, we get it: you're not a fan. It seems you certainly feel the need to mark your territory, protect your turf.
> 
> Since you seem to have moved on from IMBA, why keep responding negatively in these threads?


What? No voice of dissension is allowed? Only the party line shall be spoken? What are you so afraid of? The IMBA is far from the last and final word.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Nobody is asking you not to dissent. We're just pointing out that constantly whining about IMBA and then saying that you don't need IMBA in your local area makes no sense. If you don't need them and don't interact with them, why all the angst? Why reply at all? Why post (very, very old) viral Hitler videos and/or incoherent rants?

Seriously - I don't get it. What is the specific thing or things that people want IMBA to do (or not do)? After all these posts I still do not understand what any of the IMBA critics actually want. Can someone post a short/understandable list of demands or grievances?

-Walt


----------



## john.b (Jun 9, 2013)

Walt said:


> Is it really the case that IMBA wants to steal the "cachet"?


In this thread:



peteuga said:


> Without IMBA we would all be riding eroded horse/atv trails.





peteuga said:


> All I am saying is that IMBA teaches this and they are very powerful things to know that the well intended uneducated builder will know nothing about.


Those are some pretty bold statements.


----------



## CANADIANBACON (Sep 25, 2005)

Walt said:


> Nobody is asking you not to dissent. We're just pointing out that constantly whining about IMBA and then saying that you don't need IMBA in your local area makes no sense. If you don't need them and don't interact with them, why all the angst? Why reply at all? Why post (very, very old) viral Hitler videos and/or incoherent rants?
> 
> Seriously - I don't get it. What is the specific thing or things that people want IMBA to do (or not do)? After all these posts I still do not understand what any of the IMBA critics actually want. Can someone post a short/understandable list of demands or grievances?
> 
> -Walt


Hiya Walt,

It says next to your avatar that you are a "moderator".

This is a public forum... no?...
and this particular forum is sponsored by IMBA...
and members of the public want to state thier opinions (pro IMBA, IMBA neutral, or IMBA negative)...

What's not to get?

Why is a mtbr.com moderator discouraging mtbr.com members from expressing their opinions? Additionally, do you think it is it a good idea or good form for a moderator to refer to others points of view as "whining" or "incoherent rants" whitout acknowledging those judgements as your own personal opinion?

You make a good point about putting together a "short/understandable list of demands or grievances". I personally would like to see a sticky at the top of this forum with links to all of the related discussions so that those who want to have a better understanding can brush-up on the background before they wade-in neck deep into a very complex discussion.

As has been stated here (on mtbr.com) IMBA has done a lot of good work over the years. Having followed these recent IMBA related threads quite closely there appears to be a significant group of long-term IMBA supporters who are struggling with IMBA's current actions.

The collective sentiment seems overwhelmingly constructive, something along the lines of:

'We don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water. We are seeking change. We are desperately trying to get through to the organization we helped to build and support. IMBA is not listening and is no longer acting in our best interests'.

What should be abundantly clear from all of the related threads is that mtbr.com forums are serving a very necessary and valuable role in this discussion; they are providing a means of uncensored discussion and feedback with and to IMBA.

Not to put too fine a point on it... but, what this says to me is that IMBA doesn't have a similar mechanism and therefore is not sincere about receiving and or acting on constructive criticism from it's membership.

I welcome your thoughts.

CB


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

When did I discourage anyone from posting their opinions? Please point that part of my last post out, and while you're at it, POST A LIST OF GRIEVANCES so that this all makes sense.

Nobody is trying to shut down the board or kill the discussion, but so far, the discussion isn't ABOUT anything as far as I can tell, so it's hard for some of us here to understand how to respond. Part of my role as moderator is to help people communicate effectively and that's not happening here as far as I can tell.

*Once again: what is it that you dislike about IMBA or IMBA's actions and what would you like to see change? What current IMBA actions are you "struggling with"? Why? *

-Walt


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Walt said:


> Nobody is asking you not to dissent. We're just pointing out that constantly whining about IMBA and then saying that you don't need IMBA in your local area makes no sense. If you don't need them and don't interact with them, why all the angst? Why reply at all? Why post (very, very old) viral Hitler videos and/or incoherent rants?
> 
> Seriously - I don't get it. What is the specific thing or things that people want IMBA to do (or not do)? After all these posts I still do not understand what any of the IMBA critics actually want. Can someone post a short/understandable list of demands or grievances?
> 
> -Walt


The constant rah, rah shove IMBA down our throats is tiresome and one sided revisiononist history. IMBA's exclusionary actions in Arizona are just one example of their underhanded tactics. The IMBA is not every cyclists friend.


----------



## CANADIANBACON (Sep 25, 2005)

Walt said:


> When did I discourage anyone from posting their opinions? Please point that part of my last post out, and while you're at it, POST A LIST OF GRIEVANCES so that this all makes sense.
> 
> Nobody is trying to shut down the board or kill the discussion, but so far, the discussion isn't ABOUT anything as far as I can tell, so it's hard for some of us here to understand how to respond. Part of my role as moderator is to help people communicate effectively and that's not happening here as far as I can tell.
> 
> ...


Hi Walt,

I'm sorry. I took your comment:

"Why reply at all? Why post (very, very old) viral Hitler videos and/or incoherent rants?"

quite litterally, hence my comments about "judgement" and discouraging members from posting.

Also, I realize that it is hard for some of you here to respond given that this thread was 'humor' from out of the blue. You might link to some of the other threads in Trail Building. Here is one thread that might help:

http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/betterride-drops-imba-885426.html

CB


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Walt, you refer to criticisms of IMBA as whining and further suggest that I move on. That is dismissive, too. The former is referred to as hurt speak, a form of bullying, the latter is gate keeping, an attempt at exclusion. 

The principle value of MTBR is discussion and participation of different points of view. You, by these tactics, undermine this.

My understanding of IMBA is enhanced by these discussions, whether pro or anti, through exposure to information at a national level. Your method attempts to skew the discussion largely in support of values you hold. I find that unwelcome here and hope that you will desist.


----------



## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

I agree with Berkley Mike. I knew very little about IMBA before these discussions. I know a lot more now. I have the intelligence to separate the wheat from the chaff and have found these few threads lately to be very informative. Not only have I gained a better understanding of IMBA's philosophy but have also got a lot of insight into problems in other areas that we don't (but may in the future) experience here.

I say keep it up and thanks to everyone for their input.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Ok, so what are your grievances? Seriously, will someone please answer the question? If this is just all about Sedona all over again, just say so. If not, please inform me/us what IMBA and IMBA Trail Solutions (the ostensible subject of the thread) is doing wrong. 

Honestly, I don't have a side in this but the repeated posts by the same folks seem pointless without useful/constructive detail.

-Walt


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Walt, over the last couple of weeks there's have been over 8000 views on dozens of examples. This speaks to the richness of the topic which frequently involves a general belief about IMBA not shared by everyone. This particular one is being defined by the OP who expresses herself well. If you find contributions pointless the you have the option to ignore them.


----------



## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Walt, I believe this particular thread was started as a "Hey, look at this funny video." and evolved into "Should we discuss IMBA's pros and cons on MTBR, or not." As such I'd call this thread a success.

The other similar threads started recently have had specific grievances and questions brought up and discussed. Again, I'd call them successful. 

It would be nice if the 3 or 4 threads were all in one, but merging them would make for a very confusing read. I don't mind going through the various threads to see what's being said.

I don't frequent the local forums from outside my area so I wasn't aware of some of the advocacy and building issues in those areas. As a builder and advocate for almost 50 years, I suppose maybe I should be hunting through those forums for information and tips but I spend a lot of time in meetings and out on the trails. When those problems came into discussion in this forum, it was a good thing in my eyes.


----------



## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

Walt,

Best I can tell, two possible contentions against IMBA center first around Trail Solutions as a for-profit that uses non-profit generated funds in their bid process to undercut competing professional trail builders. The other is the online trail map site that sells advertising which benefits financially another for-profit climbing-hiking site that IMBA contracted with to generate the bike trail site. The beef is that these practices are unethical and contrary to the non-profit, advocacy spirit under which IMBA was formed and operated for much of its existence.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

This video is not bashing IMBA Trail Solutions, it is making fun of people who _complain about_ IMBA Trail Solutions.


----------



## 2bfluid (Aug 17, 2008)

Whom ever made that vid deserves a free beer. Dats funny.


----------



## Dirt Engineer (Sep 12, 2012)

You know it's almost the weekend and y'all should be out building some trail instead of arguing semantics. At least that's what I'm going to do on Sunday afternoon!

Happy Holidays, y'all!!


----------

