# Two Tools...



## AdroitBreaker (Jan 27, 2004)

So, I was looking to order a Shulaski and McLeod from charles shultz but I haven't heard back from him in a couple of weeks. I am starting to look elsewhere. The local club has some tools but I would like to have a couple that I can use when going to do trailwork on my own and keep sharp and in shape.

The trails around here are pretty rooty with a decent amount of rock. I anticipate that I will be using to tools to manage water (knicks and rolling grade dips) as well as some digging for rock armoring. There may also be some significant benching.

I was wondering if there were any suggestions for picking up two tools. I know the standards are the Pulaski and Mcleod but there have got to be others worht considering. After a little bit of research, here are my options.


Pulaski (Maybe Ebay?)
McLeod
Thau Claw 
Rogue Hoe (great price!)
Lamberton Rake (not cheap!)
[*]Rhino Hoe

I am leaning towards a Pulaski and a Rogue Hoe, but that leaves me without a rake. I kind of wish the handles onthe Nuple McLeods were just a little longer (although I don't know how long they are). So that might be a factor.

Thanks for the input...
-AB


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## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

AdroitBreaker said:


> I kind of wish the handles onthe Nuple McLeods were just a little longer (although I don't know how long they are). So that might be a factor.
> 
> Thanks for the input...
> -AB


You can't go without a McLeod for finishing work. The Rogue is great for grabbing one tool, going on a hike and fixing a little here and there. You'll definately miss the rake aspect when building a new trail.

Nupla = 48" handle, same as the rest. Head gets slightly loose which is annoying but its still just as functional. Someone recommended tapping the black plastic sleeve down to tighten the head, but after wailing on the sleeve (using a vice to apply = pressure to both side of sleeve...similar to a headset install by dummies) for 10 minutes I gave up. The Nupla doesn't have the nut on the base to pack mud, but it does have 4 little rivits that keep the base from being perfectly flat, and I seem to always have a little mud on the base from tamping (yes I know its not a great tamper).

As for the Lamberton, I believe you can request the IBMA spec rake which has thicker steel.

Finally what the fuc& is going on at Shulaski??


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## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

This looks interesting...very pricey...high quality??

http://code3tactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=189

Haven't seen a Pulaski like this
http://code3tactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=17036

Better price

http://www.degrata.com/entry-tools-...2.html?zenid=a0a1849347fb851f49d390acebd49bd2

Some company info...looks like very high quality stuff

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_August_23/ai_n14928693


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## AdroitBreaker (Jan 27, 2004)

Fattirewilly said:


> This looks interesting...very pricey...high quality??
> 
> http://code3tactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=189
> 
> ...


Those look pretty intense. Certainly not cheap.

You are right about missing the rake aspect of the Mcleod and needing some sort of tamper. It's going to be really hard to find a better two-tool combo than the standard pulaski/mcleod setup. I'm going to take a closer look at those blackhawk tools.


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## eblas2007 (Mar 11, 2007)

I always buy my tools from these guys. They always have huge sales.

http://www.harborfreight.com/


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## Box Elder (Nov 8, 2006)

99% of all trail work can be done with the following two tools; a pick mattock ($19.95 at Home Depot) and a heavy duty pair of boots ($50 at Cabelas and they work just about as well as a McLeod when moving and packing soil). I'd also toss in a small folding limb saw for brush work. 

I've never understood why trail crews even use Pulaski's. The handles are weak and the mattock is much too narrow compared to the mattock end of a pick mattock. I always have one handy but it's just for chopping down trees or cutting large roots. As soon as you try to pry rock with them, the handles break.


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## bweide (Dec 27, 2004)

*Pulaski vs. Pick Mattock*

The decision to go with a Pulaski or a pick mattock seems to depend on the soil type you are building your trails in. If the soil is deep/loamy with few rocks and with lots of plants needing to be removed, go with a Pulaski. If you are working in rocky/shallow soils with few plants to be removed (desert or high-elevation), go with a pick mattock. I would say the two minimum tools to build new trail would be a Pulaski/pick mattock and a McLeod.


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## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

*Lamberton vs Nupla McLeod*

Can anyone compare the quality/durability of the Lamberton McLeod to the Nupla Mcleod??

In my opinion, the Nupla's loose head sucks and the steel temper is so-so. That's compared to the old Zak tool model McLeod.


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## bweide (Dec 27, 2004)

*Really, really expensive trail tools*

The Blackhawk tools look very interesting but are awfully expensive. I couldn't find a website that explains the technical differences in their tools that justify the added cost. If you want to see the absolutely most expensive tools you could buy for trail building, short of a Sweco trail dozer, check out the Dragon Slayers wildfire tools website.

http://www.dragonslayers.com/fire_tools.html


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## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

bweide said:


> http://www.dragonslayers.com/fire_tools.html


Dang..$139 for a handle and another $139 for your tool of choice....
"Can I borrow that for a second?"..."hell no!"


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## Blurred_Vision (May 19, 2006)

Yes the Zac Tools McLeod was the Mac Daddy of McLeods and I am sorry they are no longer around. If someone else would resume production I think they could charge enough to make a profit because they were the best. Our club has a number of Nupla McLeods that we bought at a good price from fire cache and we have not had the heads work loose yet. Your volunteers have to understand that a straight handled tool is not to be lifted above waist level and maybe that will prolong the life.We buy our Pulaskis from our local Home Depot at about $30 for a fiberglass handled model.The Rogue Hoes are really sweet as the previous poster said for a quick walk and light maintenance and I will order a few more but they can not compete with a good McLeod for building.

I don't know what is happening with Charles Shultz but the Shulaski does work well in the type of soil it is designed for. If you have a lot of rocks and roots the regular Pulaskis will do better and cost less.His McLeods are very nice.


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## AdroitBreaker (Jan 27, 2004)

Blurred_Vision said:


> Yes the Zac Tools McLeod was the Mac Daddy of McLeods and I am sorry they are no longer around. If someone else would resume production I think they could charge enough to make a profit because they were the best. Our club has a number of Nupla McLeods that we bought at a good price from fire cache and we have not had the heads work loose yet. Your volunteers have to understand that a straight handled tool is not to be lifted above waist level and maybe that will prolong the life.We buy our Pulaskis from our local Home Depot at about $30 for a fiberglass handled model.The Rogue Hoes are really sweet as the previous poster said for a quick walk and light maintenance and I will order a few more but they can not compete with a good McLeod for building.
> 
> I don't know what is happening with Charles Shultz but the Shulaski does work well in the type of soil it is designed for. If you have a lot of rocks and roots the regular Pulaskis will do better and cost less.His McLeods are very nice.


I have a couple of questions for you Blurred...

1) are you actually getting pulaskis from Home Depot or Axe mattocks? I ask because I think I prefer the cutting head on a Pulaski over the Mattock and was wondering if I should take a trip to HD.

2)The Rogue Hoe looks like it's slightly curved. Does that help shape out knicks and rolling grade dips better than a square McLeod. I am going to pick up a Lamberton rake but it sounds like the Rogue hoes are also worth getting. Also is the Rogue hoe substantial enough for a little bit of tamping?


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## Blurred_Vision (May 19, 2006)

I think Home Depot calls it a landscapers axe and it is made by Ludell. There may be some subtle difference between it and a Pulaski but I can not see it.It has an regular axe on 1 side and the digging side is like a mattock with a fiberglass handle. I tried to find the link to it on the HD website but it is pretty lousy - no returns when I searched for "mattock" so I entered"shovel" and was taken to electrical fittings.

The Rogue Hoe does have a slight curve and it works well for shaping and tamping but with a smaller footprint than a McLeod. We have the one with a small pick on 1 side and about a 6" blade on the other.


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## AdroitBreaker (Jan 27, 2004)

Blurred_Vision said:


> I think Home Depot calls it a landscapers axe and it is made by Ludell. There may be some subtle difference between it and a Pulaski but I can not see it.It has an regular axe on 1 side and the digging side is like a mattock with a fiberglass handle. I tried to find the link to it on the HD website but it is pretty lousy - no returns when I searched for "mattock" so I entered"shovel" and was taken to electrical fittings.
> 
> The Rogue Hoe does have a slight curve and it works well for shaping and tamping but with a smaller footprint than a McLeod. We have the one with a small pick on 1 side and about a 6" blade on the other.


Cool, thanks for the response.


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## fireboy (Jan 12, 2004)

Our club uses the Rogue Hoe and Pulaski for most stuff....As said earlier..if you want one tool to use on a hike..the Rogue is the ticket. If it's a group build, we throw in a bunch of McCleod's to do the raking, scraping, and throwing of the tilled up debris and a couple of 10 x 10 tampers to do the final stomping. I like the looks of that Rhino though...and I love my Schulaski as well....we bought one lamberton rake...it's way too heavy!!


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## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

fireboy said:


> we bought one lamberton rake...it's way too heavy!!


Is that the big 16 wide rake or the Lamberton version of the Mcleod??

Holy cheap tools http://www.amazon.com/TRUPER-HERRAM...5-7761757?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1174607675&sr=1-15


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Blurred_Vision said:


> Yes the Zac Tools McLeod was the Mac Daddy of McLeods and I am sorry they are no longer around...


Word on the street is that Zac is back: http://www.zactool.com/

The Rogue Hoes are very well made and IMO are worth having at least a couple. Not a replacement to the usual quiver, but a good complement.

I picked up a Thau Claw last fall and really liked it also.


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## Blurred_Vision (May 19, 2006)

I will call about the Zac Tools McLeod tomorrow. If they are the same as before I would be willing to pay the extra over what we paid for Nupla. The company also used to give a nice discount to IMBA affiliate clubs. We have another grant for tools coming around so this would be great if it worked.


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## dburatti (Feb 14, 2004)

radair said:


> Word on the street is that Zac is back: http://www.zactool.com/


Interesting....was the original company not spelled Zak?

D


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## Blurred_Vision (May 19, 2006)

I believe it was ZAC.


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

I recently discovered the Zac Tool site back up, and yes, they appear to be building the original, which I still think is the best McLeod I've ever used. The Lamberton is heavy. Both the Lamberton and the Shulaski are expensive (over $100 each). I feel that I've come up with a better head design specific to trailbuilding, but getting it built is a ***** (mainly due to materials sourcing). I'm getting ready to order 20 McLeods from Zac.

I have both a "proper" Pulaski (purchased from Forestry Supply) and a "Landscaper's Axe" purchased from the Home Despot. Pulaski - $65. Landscaper's Axe - $29.95. Personally, I prefer the Home Depot version. It's lighter, which means I don't have to work quite as hard when I'm lifting it, especially when I'm doing "fine" work with it. It's also half the price, which means I don't get all freaked out when I hit a rock with it or when someone else picks it up on a workday.


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## Blurred_Vision (May 19, 2006)

Good news - the ZAC McLeods are back in production and being sold by American Presto Corp. I spoke to Josh Alexander and he had just gotten off the phone with someone from IMBA about the tools as well. He said they do not have anything officially set up but they will extend the old 10% discount to IMBA affiliates - you will need to ask about it until they get it set up. He said the only change was that the fiberglass handles have a thicker wall than before but otherwise they are the same. As soon as our final grant paperwork comes through we will be ordering a batch. Sometimes the slow pace of government works out for the best!


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## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

AdroitBreaker said:


> Cool, thanks for the response.


Lamberton's got here quick. How do you like them build quality wise?


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## AdroitBreaker (Jan 27, 2004)

Fattirewilly said:


> Lamberton's got here quick. How do you like them build quality wise?


Build quality looks good. I got to play with mine (and a Home Depot "Landscaping Axe") for about an hour today.

It _might_ be a little heavy or I _might_ just be a slacker that sat at desk all day hating my computer driven lifetstyle. For about 3 minutes I was wondering if the regular rake would be better for weight and getting around but once I got a good amount of soil loosened up I was glad to have the deeper profile. Rake side worked well too.


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## KPVSR (Dec 25, 2006)

I may have missed it but I didn't see anyone mention a spade shovel and flat nosed shovel. When it comes to a heavy bench cut by hand I'll take a spade shovel and flat nosed shovel over most anything.


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## bweide (Dec 27, 2004)

Most trail builders do not make much use of shovels, round and definately not square, except maybe for soil dispersal. I believe this is for three reasons.

Shovels only seem to work well in loamy soils with little in the way of obstructions in the soil like roots or rocks. Even just a small rock will stop a shovel dead. They do work well for clearing drainage dips and water bars, probably because the dirt and gravel fill has little of the way of obstructions.

Tools like mattocks and McLeods are used with a swinging down and pulling towards yourself motion. This requires less muscle than pushing a shovel into the dirt because gravity helps and so do the large muscles of your upper and lower back. It seems to be easier for trail volunteers to swing a mattock all day than to use a shovel.

Most trails are not dug out of a hillside but scraped instead. Oftentimes a new volunter will grab a shovel, stick the point in the ground and jump on it like they are planning to dig a deep hole. This usually results in insloped tread or unconsolidated fill in the tread. The same problem occurs with pick mattocks and Pulaskis, it just seems to happen slower so you can catch it in time to prevent serious trail damage.


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## KPVSR (Dec 25, 2006)

I can see your point on flat ground and aggree but when bench cutting into a steep hill where a foot or more of depth needs to be dug out I'll take a spade shovel. My shovels can cut through roots up to 1-1/2" fairly easy and rocks really never seem to be that big of an issue. I am in heavy Georgia clay soil and find spade and flat nosed shovels wonderful tools. We don't have a lot of flat ground around here and many trails need to be cut into hillsides.
If really given the choice I'll rent a walk behind skid steer.


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## mtb777 (Nov 6, 2005)

Fattirewilly said:


> This looks interesting...very pricey...high quality??
> 
> http://code3tactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=189
> 
> ...


Check that out....because that says a 3 pack???! I think??????????

url]http://code3tactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=189[/url]


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## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

mtb777 said:


> Check that out....because that says a 3 pack???! I think??????????
> 
> url]http://code3tactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=189[/url]


Yup, pack of 3 only at $114 per tool. Click the buy button, and your total is $300+


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## Blurred_Vision (May 19, 2006)

The McLeod looks like a Nupla which we pay less than $50 for. 
Maybe it is a special model for warriors.


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## vtvirga (Aug 10, 2007)

It's great to hear folks so interested in hand tools. I wish it was easier to find people to swing them. Keep up the good work. 
Cheers,
Matt


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

If I only had one tool for bench cutting, it would be a Rhino.


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