# Truvativ HammerSchmidt



## Kevin G (Feb 19, 2007)

Anyone got more scoop yet?

https://www.magicmechanics.com/

The latest Decline issue has an ad/photo of what it looks like.

Other articles here and here.


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## albertomannil (Nov 25, 2007)

looks interesting.


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

I'm guessing it's either 2 or 3 gears just meant to replace the front rings. Be pretty cool on a single speed bike because you still get some ratios in there without a derailleur.


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## Mr.P (Feb 8, 2005)

ilikemybike011 said:


> Be pretty cool on a single speed bike because you still get some ratios in there without a derailleur.


Good thinkin'! :thumbsup:

P

Doh! just realized one might still need a tensioner, so weight savings may not be too significant. (gotta love speculation)


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## Windowlicker (Oct 22, 2007)

or a fixie
that would be neato


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## kamikazee ideki (Jul 2, 2007)

2009 norcos have it
https://reviews.mtbr.com/files/2008/07/picture-093.jpg


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## Dalis12 (Jan 15, 2008)

kamikazee ideki said:


> 2009 norcos have it
> https://reviews.mtbr.com/files/2008/07/picture-093.jpg


thats some awesome carpet in that norco pic!


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

So does diamondback.... lol


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## buckoW (Feb 7, 2007)

Scott as well.


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## V.P. (Aug 26, 2007)

so, how do you shift gears on this?


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Where we really need this technology is in the rear where we are smashing and bashing deraillers and having all kinds of problems. I'd like to see bent hangers and cages be a thing of the past.


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## Kevin G (Feb 19, 2007)

ilikemybike011 said:


> So does diamondback.... lol


True - the following page ad in Decline shows a Diamondback "Goat" with one mounted.


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## DirtGash (Mar 1, 2008)

Jim311 said:


> Where we really need this technology is in the rear where we are smashing and bashing deraillers and having all kinds of problems. I'd like to see bent hangers and cages be a thing of the past.


I second that! SRAM did buy a wheel company last year, so that probably is in the near future. Especially if the HammerSchmidt is a success with the true testers of the world.


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

Probably the only crankset from Truvativ I've ever wanted to check out...


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## Kevin G (Feb 19, 2007)

Other tidbits I just found:


Bike Mag:

Had a very interesting morning yesterday. It all started with a bright-and-early 7 A.M. breakfast with a representative of SRAM (which was super fun to wake up for after the premiere of and party for Kranked 7: The Cackle Factor held Sea Otter in Monterey over the weekend).

After some bacon and eggs I was thrown into a van driven by Tyler Moreland (are Canadian free riders really just allowed to drive in this country? Shouldn’t’ there be some special licensing involved? Waivers? Anyone?).

Anyways we arrived at the Embassy Suites in Monterey and I was led past a security guard to a dark room. There an attractive young girl blindfolded me, and I know what you’re thinking—girl, blindfold, dark hotel room? This is where it gets freaky! And how!

But this was really, really freaky. (And because we’re talking about mountain bikes here the girl quickly disappeared…)

But once inside I was told I had 30 seconds to ride a bike set up on a trainer. I knew what to look for (figuratively speaking, I’m still blindfolded at this point): the front shifting.

This whole elaborate rouse was set up by SRAM as the first real taste of a “revolutionary” front shifting system SRAM has been working on for months now. The shifter only had two positions, and by feathering the rear brake and shifting at the same time I could feel the gear ratio changing. What I didn’t find was the clackety-clunk of a traditional front derailleur in action. Instead the shifting action came smoothly, via the same sensation you get from an internal 3-speed beach cruiser hub.

So that’s all the info we have for now, but there you have it. SRAM’s Hammerschmidt, which we teased HERE last month, promises to take the front derailleur out of front shifting. The possible benefits are many. (Think single-ring, go-anywhere bike with a bashguard/chain retention device of your choice.) Stay tuned.

So that’s all the info we have for now, but there you have it. SRAM’s Hammerschmidt, which we teased HERE last month, promises to take the front derailleur out of front shifting. The possible benefits are many. (Think single-ring, go-anywhere bike with a bashguard/chain retention device of your choice.) Stay tuned.



Decline Mag:

During the Sea Otter, I was invited to a secret breakfast with Eric Schutt from SRAM. I figured it was to check out the new transmission system I’ve heard rumors about. 

After breakfast, a few other journos and I were tossed into a van driven by Tyler Morland. As he squealed out of the parking lot, we were told to put on bandana blindfolds. We arrived at the Embassy Suites hotel and taken one by one into a dark room to “test ride” the new shift system on a trainer. It was an odd scene but I did get an impression of what is coming. 

Called the HammerSchmidt, the shift system works on a normal feeling Trigger shifter and I’m pretty sure it is located on the crank. It shifts extremely smooth and fast, and doesn’t require the cranks to be spinning. The HammerSchmidt offers two gear options that feel similar to a 23/34-tooth combo. It is obvious that the system does not use chainrings and may have a design similar to a planetary gear system, but I am only speculating. That’s about all I can tell you until SRAM lets us take a look at it. For now, sign up at SRAM’s Magic Mechanics propaganda website for updates.


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## Kevin G (Feb 19, 2007)

Images found in a Russian forum:




























Although these prototypes look different than what's in the Decline ad.


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## trailadvent (Jun 29, 2004)

more


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## Kevin G (Feb 19, 2007)

Yes - thanks, TA. That looks like the FR version. Did you see the Diamondback ad on the following page (assuming this was from Decline)?


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## V.P. (Aug 26, 2007)

How many versions will there be? So that is the freeride, will there be a DH as well? or perhaps an AM?


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## trailadvent (Jun 29, 2004)

Kevin G said:


> Yes - thanks, TA. That looks like the FR version. Did you see the Diamondback ad on the following page (assuming this was from Decline)?


Nah slotted from RM


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

i still don't get the point to be honest. ok, cool idea, but who has problems with their front derailler? a cheap blackspire guide plus a front derailler and wham, you're good to go. I can't imagine it saves alot of weight over something like an xt 2 ring gamut bash blackspire guide xt front derailler setup. You're still gonna have to run a shifter, and its not like front ders are THAT heavy...I can't imagine this will save weight, I've never had trouble shifting, just don't get the point to be honest...

guess I'll have to wait and see how much it weighs/how strong it is


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## Murx (Nov 13, 2007)

William42 said:


> i still don't get the point to be honest. ok, cool idea, but who has problems with their front derailler? a cheap blackspire guide plus a front derailler and wham, you're good to go. I can't imagine it saves alot of weight over something like an xt 2 ring gamut bash blackspire guide xt front derailler setup. You're still gonna have to run a shifter, and its not like front ders are THAT heavy...I can't imagine this will save weight, I've never had trouble shifting, just don't get the point to be honest...
> 
> guess I'll have to wait and see how much it weighs/how strong it is


Hammerschmitt is not about front/rear derailler stuff. It's about suspension-design. More specific: Its about designing an optimal single-pivot suspension system.


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## GiantGeoff (Jun 22, 2007)

That guy in the bandana holding the "Powered by SRAM" sign is totally badass.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

trailadvent said:


> more


Sram makes some pretty cool adds these days, what mag was that?


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

Murx said:


> Hammerschmitt is not about front/rear derailler stuff. It's about suspension-design. More specific: Its about designing an optimal single-pivot suspension system.


best first post ever. thanks dude, I hadn't thought of that, but that makes a whole lot of sense. any idea of whether they will come in 83 mm bb versions?


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## Hozer (Aug 9, 2006)

2009 DB Mission 3 and Scapegoat will both have HammerSchmidt. Instant shifting - and I mean instant - and the rider does not need to be pedaling to shift.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

alright - this is sounding insanely cool... the more I hear about it...

big question: will it be retrofittable to any current bike? (ie. I have an '08 HiFi - will it be compatible??) ... or does it need ISCG mounts?


cheers


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## Murx (Nov 13, 2007)

William42 said:


> best first post ever. thanks dude, I hadn't thought of that, but that makes a whole lot of sense. any idea of whether they will come in 83 mm bb versions?


sorry - no idea but why not ....
- just requires ISCG (not sure which version though)
obvious question here (see single pivot argument): what size will Hammerschmidt have ?


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

Murx said:


> - just requires ISCG (not sure which version though)


I didn't see anywhere that you have to have guide tabs... :skep: Makes sense that it would need them, but definately a limiting factor as we seem to have 2 standards to go by mostly... (Not to mention the fact if your frame doesn't have them at all...)

As a mechanic of sorts, I'm curious about durability. Mostly drive side impacts... I saw a guy at a local race hit his pedal in a rock garden and twisted his crank arm 90 degrees! His pedal was pointing backwards on the downstroke!

I guess we'll have to wait until September go get the low down.


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## DirtGash (Mar 1, 2008)

William42 said:


> i still don't get the point to be honest. ok, cool idea, but who has problems with their front derailler? a cheap blackspire guide plus a front derailler and wham, you're good to go. I can't imagine it saves alot of weight over something like an xt 2 ring gamut bash blackspire guide xt front derailler setup. You're still gonna have to run a shifter, and its not like front ders are THAT heavy...I can't imagine this will save weight, I've never had trouble shifting, just don't get the point to be honest...
> 
> guess I'll have to wait and see how much it weighs/how strong it is


Dude let's face it....derailluers suck period...they've been around way tooooooo long. Front derailluers really suck. They can be a real ***** to dial in correctly so they are actually smooth and quiet, at least in the middle ring...If you run a 3 ring setup (for what ever sick reason that would be) you get alot of repeated gear ratios. Unless you run tensioners or guide systems the chain loves to come off. And for those that actually use their front derailluer on a regular basis probably doesn't experience smooth shifting that often, unless you make the perfect shift at the perfect moment. Crunch crunch crunch

From what I've gathered the hammerschmidt takes all those issues away giving the cleanest, smoothest shift ever...but more importantly it is the death of the front derailluer which will soon lead to the death of the rear.

Either way I perfer a single ring up front so the hammerschmidt doesn't do much for me, but it's the advance in the drivetrain that kicks ass.

It's 2009 almost, we have disc brakes, bad ass suspension, why the hell are we still using the derailluer that's been around for a 100 years!!!!!


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

DirtGash said:


> Dude let's face it....derailluers suck period...they've been around way tooooooo long. Front derailluers really suck. They can be a real ***** to dial in correctly so they are actually smooth and quiet, at least in the middle ring...If you run a 3 ring setup (for what ever sick reason that would be) you get alot of repeated gear ratios. Unless you run tensioners or guide systems the chain loves to come off. And for those that actually use their front derailluer on a regular basis probably doesn't experience smooth shifting that often, unless you make the perfect shift at the perfect moment. Crunch crunch crunch
> 
> From what I've gathered the hammerschmidt takes all those issues away giving the cleanest, smoothest shift ever...but more importantly it is the death of the front derailluer which will soon lead to the death of the rear.
> 
> ...


lets take this logic further! the wheel has been around for thousands, so we shoud be on some sort of advanced hoverboard ala "back to the future" and why stop there? Our frames should be made out of carbon nano tubes and antigravity, since metal has been around for ages. its 2009!

blahblahblah.

I've never had a problem getting a front der setup properly so that it doesn't drop between gears unless the rings are worn to hell and need to be replaced. But at that point, you're screwed even if you don't have a front derailler. With a e13 DRS guide and saint front derailler, I never ever dropped a chain. Now my friend is running that setup (he's using my old DRS) - he too, has not dropped a chain. Another friend on a blackspire. Never dropped a chain. Setting up a front derailler isn't even hard. You look at it from above, its parallel, cool, you set it about a millimeter up from the large chainring, tighten, tension cable, wham, ur done, and it shifts perfectly.

If this was some revolutionary new way of setting up the rear so that the gears were internal, i'd be stoked and pumped by this, but this just seems kinda useless, save the idea that you can set up single pivots with optimized chainlines so they pedal well in ever gear and you don't have to have that nasty "overdamped" platform feel. I donno, rear deraillers, yah, I can understand dislike. Front deraillers? who gives a crap.


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

Uuuuh... how about being able to grab a handful of gears whilst pedaling hard without the attendant choking on the chainring? If you need to be in a totally different ratio NOW then the front is the way to do it. It's also the side that takes to powershifting the worst. So if this HammerSchmidt biz is strong enough to shift butter smooth on power, and able to shift while not even pedaling then I'd say major innovation.

Add in a more durable hub shift rear and you have derailleur free nirvana. Can the DH hub be that far behind?


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## trailadvent (Jun 29, 2004)

EGF168 said:


> Sram makes some pretty cool adds these days, what mag was that?


Decline

As for ISCG its designed around AM/FR bikes where weight is not such an important factoer and abuse and conditions are more of an issue as well as suspension design effects of operation from whaty Ive read to date!

Speculation is good but we need to sit back get all the info before poo pooing the idea theyve been working on it for atleast a couple of years so its got to have some promise for that level of investment for this segment of the market! How can ya shoot down somhing ya haven't tried tested or even seen yet, comon guy's put the crack pipe down stay open minded!

The good thing from my point fo view is it dosen't create any new industry standards apart from a new crankset, there's no new wheels needed, no new frame unless ya don't have ISCG most FR frames do and many AM frames! nothing else special is created and thats a good thing it means it will be able to catch most of its intended market if its worthy or people get it!

Im not sure if I'd use something like that for DH myself, at speed and stuff happening on the DH course theres enough to think of without left hand shifting as well, just some thoguhts there but who knows maybe if its reliable and light enough, DH bikes are already heavy enough then ts got possiblities but I see the gearbox more of a future for DH bikes, this could definitley take Gboxs away from AM/FR for a while if its as good as it sounds!

And Norco are going to be first to market by the looks even on a Hardtail thats big imo they must be convinced of its applicatiosn to do that!

Patience patience


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## bustanutley (Feb 23, 2008)

This combined with an updated(strengthened) 3 speed rear hub will be rad. Should be plenty of range for any gravity bike. Throw in a frame that sees no chain growth and you have the perfect bike.


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

Murx said:


> Hammerschmitt is not about front/rear derailler stuff. It's about suspension-design. More specific: Its about designing an optimal single-pivot suspension system.


What in the **** are you talking bro?


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## trailadvent (Jun 29, 2004)

Kev you talking about this?


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## SelfPropelledDevo (Oct 2, 2005)

i wonder how it would work out in a Cargo Bike application.


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## Murx (Nov 13, 2007)

ilikemybike011 said:


> What in the **** are you talking bro?


-- the relevant keywords are pedal-induced kickback and bobbing.
With two or even three chain rings in front you can't design a proper
single pivot system because the angle between chain pull and pivot changes, 
when you switch from one ring to the other.

But Hammerschmidt is going to change that. And i guess its going to make a dent in
the specialized FSR market ...


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## V.P. (Aug 26, 2007)

DirtGash said:


> Dude let's face it....derailluers suck period...they've been around way tooooooo long. Front derailluers really suck. They can be a real ***** to dial in correctly so they are actually smooth and quiet, at least in the middle ring...If you run a 3 ring setup (for what ever sick reason that would be) you get alot of repeated gear ratios. Unless you run tensioners or guide systems the chain loves to come off. And for those that actually use their front derailluer on a regular basis probably doesn't experience smooth shifting that often, unless you make the perfect shift at the perfect moment. Crunch crunch crunch
> 
> From what I've gathered the hammerschmidt takes all those issues away giving the cleanest, smoothest shift ever...but more importantly it is the death of the front derailluer which will soon lead to the death of the rear.
> 
> ...


agree.


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## vmajor (Oct 1, 2007)

Here are the currently released specs. We are actively lobbying for more info  
*
Specs*
Model Description HammerSchmidt AM/FR
Compatible Chain Type PC991, PC971, PC951
Interface HammerSchmidt
ChainRing 22t or 24t
Bottom Bracket 68mm, 73mm, 83mm
Option 1 22t
Option 2 24t
Option 3 ISCG 03
Option 4 ISCG 05

V.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

vmajor said:


> Option 1 22t
> Option 2 24t
> Option 3 ISCG 03
> Option 4 ISCG 05


So does that mean there are 2 options that don't require ISCG mounts?


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## vmajor (Oct 1, 2007)

I think it means that you can choose a 22t or 24t ring. I cannot see where it says that non-ISCG version is available.

I'll post any new info as I get it.

V.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

vmajor said:


> Here are the currently released specs. We are actively lobbying for more info
> *
> Specs*
> Model Description HammerSchmidt AM/FR
> ...


So if you chose 22T or 24T, what is the second ratio? 34T? 36T?


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

EGF168 said:


> So does that mean there are 2 options that don't require ISCG mounts?


Assuming there actually is a non-ISCG option (which btw would be SWEET for us non-ICSG wielding folks  ) - I'm thinking it might have a little brace that attaches much like a front derailleur. Just that little extra as the press fit into the BB probably wouldn't be enough to prevent the whole assembly from possibly spinning under high torque.

Might be hope yet for those of us that don't have a frame with ISCG mounts (which no doubt would be the better option, but it's nice there's a possible alternative).

cheers


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

bustanutley said:


> This combined with an updated(strengthened) 3 speed rear hub will be rad. Should be plenty of range for any gravity bike. Throw in a frame that sees no chain growth and you have the perfect bike.


All they need to do is come up with a 4.5 gear rear hub and I can have my 9speeds :thumbsup:


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## vmajor (Oct 1, 2007)

I do not think it works like that.

The 22t or 24t is just the size of the outer, drive ring. What the actual ratio is in terms of the current technology is unknown to me.

So I cannot answer what is the next effective ratio.

The consensus is that there are three ratios. I am guessing they would correspond to 22/32/44 and perhaps 24/34/46 ...I have no idea yet.

V.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

vmajor said:


> I do not think it works like that.
> 
> The 22t or 24t is just the size of the outer, drive ring. What the actual ratio is in terms of the current technology is unknown to me.
> 
> ...


Well if it's a single planetary, chances are only 2 gear ratios (2 forward that is) - you could have a 3rd ratio with a planetary, but would be reverse rotation. (EDIT: actually, a third forward ratio could be had by locking two of the three gear elements (planet, sun, ring) to get 1:1)

Being geared (no pun intended  ) to the AM and FR segment - which most often these days come with dual ring + bash setup, it would all make sense.


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## bustanutley (Feb 23, 2008)

MI_canuck said:


> Being geared (no pun intended  ) to the AM and FR segment


http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=puns

:nono:


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## Kevin G (Feb 19, 2007)

TA> That's the ad! Thanks, bro...


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Planetary gears... thats so simple I can't believe someone hasn't thought of it yet. Cool stuff.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Clutchman83 said:


> Planetary gears... thats so simple I can't believe someone hasn't thought of it yet. Cool stuff.


eh....page one of mtbr.com

http://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/german-innovators-nicolai-bionicon-join-forces/


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Khemical said:


> eh....page one of mtbr.com
> 
> http://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/german-innovators-nicolai-bionicon-join-forces/


They will both be on display at Eurobike apparently.:thumbsup:


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Deme Moore said:


> ...Can the DH hub be that far behind?


It exists, it's called a "Rholloff" (sp?). It just costs about a grand or more. :madman:


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## geolover (Nov 27, 2005)

So I can look forward to a "granny ring" gear ratio when installed on my Sunday? This could be my new XC race weapon  .


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## bustanutley (Feb 23, 2008)

Quick calculation shows these planetary cranks combined with old school 3speed hub technology would be rad

Crank 36 22

Derailleur Cassette Ratio Ratio
11 3.272727273 2
13 2.769230769 1.692307692
16 2.25 1.375
20 1.8 1.1
23 1.565217391 0.956521739
26 1.384615385 0.846153846
30 1.2 0.733333333


Hub 
4:3 14 3.428571429 2.095238095
1:1 2.571428571 1.571428571
3:4 1.928571429 1.178571429

Humm, seems BB hates spaces


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## vmajor (Oct 1, 2007)

OK I got more info,

its indeed a 2 forward ratio thing. Here they are:

*Ratios:* 1st, 1:1, 2nd, 1:1.6

So depending on the ring you choose/comes with (22t or 24t), you will have the equivalent of either 22/35 or 24/38. The higer gear ratio depends on teh exact gear ratio of the HM. I think it may actually be a bit over 1.6 to achieve the 36 and 39 rather than the little odd 35 and 38.

Cheers,

V.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

more Hammerschmidt... Look at the Shore 1 (scroll down a bit in this link...) https://www.nsmb.com/page/s/2569/norco-2009-launch-the-big-bikes/

odd that it has an X-9 rear shifter but X-0 front shifter (but good to see it's a trigger shift for the hammerschidt and not twist grip)



















getting more and more interesting as it draws nearer to official release...

cheers


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

NICE...:yesnod:


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## jeng (Aug 12, 2005)

EGF168 said:


> NICE...:yesnod:


Holy crap! That is sick!!! I need one.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

That Scott looks nice but that Norco Shore is sicktor! I would buy one in a heartbeat. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## CanadianPreston (Jul 6, 2007)

one thing being overlooked here especially by the critics / skeptics, look at the ****ing clearance you will never get that kind of clearance with a big ring up front


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## doodooboi (Dec 29, 2006)

I wonder if this concept be used as an internal shifter in a cassette mold so that you don't have a der. hanging out there to be smashed.


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## ButchNZ (Sep 26, 2007)

CanadianPreston said:


> one thing being overlooked here especially by the critics / skeptics, look at the ****ing clearance you will never get that kind of clearance with a big ring up front


I was thinking the exact same thing! Awesome for riding over logs etc.


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## twouareks (May 13, 2004)

jeng said:


> Holy crap! That is sick!!! I need one.


Yea, but I guarantee you it's waaay expensive.

I've read some people bring up the weight issue, thinking it's going to heavy and not good for xc or even trailbike / am bikes. Does anyone know the weight of the system?


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## bustanutley (Feb 23, 2008)

I would venture to guess that it is not very heavy, 22 tooth chain ring small bash and the planetary unit is so small it couldn't weigh much.

Even if it is a touch heavier than the old school, it is located in the most unnoticeable location on the bike.


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

i'd be interested in a unit like that, but they should make the shifter optional. shifter if you want to have quick access on the bar, or a small switch located on the unit itself for those who would occasionally need the gear for fire road grinding, but never when ripping the downs, while saving the trouble of a shifter n cable.


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## YoPawn (Mar 26, 2008)

I wonder how much energy it's going to be taking.

Internally geared systems tend to lose some efficiency. I'm guessing 1-3%.


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## Curler (Oct 31, 2005)

1-3% is practicly nothing! I would gladly lose that for the option to not have to pedal while shifting


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

It's going to be interesting to see how this one works in practise. It's a well proven concept and worked flawlessly on Sunbeam bikes 100 years ago - they had an oilbath chaincase.

Keep it light enough and I'm sure we'll see them getting snuck onto single speed bikes.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)




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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

EGF168 said:


>


Cool pics. Still trying to wrap my head around the internal shot... Definatly a little chunkier than I imagined. :skep:


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## Kevin G (Feb 19, 2007)

Looks like the silver cranks is the "FR" model and the black cranks the "AM" model?


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## tatankainlondon (Apr 4, 2004)

Just to get this straight.
Hammerschmidt gives you two gear in front (say 32 and 22) and can be fitted to any bike with ISCG05?
Am I correct here?


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

dammit, no! not isis drive!


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

euroford said:


> dammit, no! not isis drive!


It depends entirely on how good Truvativ isis BB's are, I mean Race Face X-type BB's are rubbish but their isis BB's last for ages.

Kevin G, if you look next to where is says Truvativ on the cranks there is a little FR or AM to tell you.:thumbsup:


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Bummer about the Howitzer BB..... I'll stick to my Hone cranks thank you.


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

Great looking product, this. Gives plenty of advantages alright...clearance....no compromise pivot placement.....no chainguide needed....but why put the shifter cable in the one spot where it could theoretically still be hit by protruding rocks and the like? Same thing but on top of the device would have seemed better....(there is probably a reason...).

And I have a hard time with how the bikes look with that small chainring.....but we'll get used to it I'm sure.


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## twouareks (May 13, 2004)

Iceman2058 said:


> no chainguide needed


That's what I thought, so why is there one on the Diamondback Goat?


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Chain tensioner is a good addition: more chain tension, less skipping and silent


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

For those who don't visit the Sram forum&#8230;

https://www.magicmechanics.com/
 
https://www.nsmb.com/page/s/2585/truvativ-hammerschmidt-first-look/


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## Calidownhiller (May 24, 2008)

I know its early, but, Price? anyone.


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## trailadvent (Jun 29, 2004)

its all in the article, prices and info


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## Mwehahaha (Oct 3, 2006)

I would guess $250-$300... it does require an iscg 05 so that will limit it's sale potential... I wonder if you will be able to use an adapter?


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Mwehahaha said:


> I would guess $250-$300... it does require an iscg 05 so that will limit it's sale potential... I wonder if you will be able to use an adapter?


Try $750-$800 :eekster:

Check out that NSMB link posted earlier.


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## trailadvent (Jun 29, 2004)

Mwehahaha said:


> I would guess $250-$300... it does require an iscg 05 so that will limit it's sale potential... I wonder if you will be able to use an adapter?


article says its a premium product lilkely to be in the range of 750 - $800

sheesh can no one click a link and read 

I thought the petrol sniffing had stopped hence the fuel price drop, maybe not still a ways to go



> SRAM / Truvativ is pitching HammerSchmidt as a premium product, so it ain't gonna be cheap. Retail pricing will be in the neighbourhood of $750 to $800 for the crankset, bottom bracket and shifter.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Bah, you just need to get a good bike shop buddy who won't charge 400 dollars of commission....


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

$800 and it uses a Howitzer BB? What a joke. That is the heaviest BB in the industry and one of the worst crank interfaces as well.

I will by normal cranks thank you..


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## trailadvent (Jun 29, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> Bah, you just need to get a good bike shop buddy who won't charge 400 dollars of commission....


Im in the wrong business

That was for everything thing though including shifter, add up a standard crankset, bash ring chains guide, X0 or X9 shifter and well its getting not too far away under normal retail pricing 

D9 did you read the article there's too flavors one based on Am with a styl type crankset



> HammerSchmidt uses a proprietary bottom bracket, with a beefier version for freeride and a lighter version for AM


Do you guys read or are you just in it for e-bashing, just asking, im not on either side I like to make my own mind up once Ive tried something or at least seen it usually or there's been enough people test it!

But some of you guys are making statements with out obviously reading the INFO!

READ then bash


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Shimano Hone M601 (SLX now) + Shimano XT FR + Blackspire Stinger <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< (much less) than 800. Do I shift between the front rings often? No... once when I begin to climb and once or twice during decent.

It's like a gravity dropper.... people will find it very useful while others not so much.

Cool innovation though!


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

trailadvent said:


> Im in the wrong business
> 
> That was for everything thing though including shifter, add up a standard crankset, bash ring chains guide, X0 or X9 shifter and well its getting not too far away under normal retail pricing
> 
> ...


Yeah I read the f-in article. And every pic of a BB is a Howitzer. "Based on the legendary Howitzer BB" ? The only thing legendary is how much the Howitzer sucks balls. $800 is a lot to pay for a front shifting system that you use like 4 times a ride.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Clutchman83 said:


> Try $750-$800 :eekster:
> 
> Check out that NSMB link posted earlier.


Dang, the Rohloff suddenly looks cheap.


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## trailadvent (Jun 29, 2004)

Demo-9 said:


> Yeah I read the f-in article. And every pic of a BB is a Howitzer. "Based on the legendary Howitzer BB" ? The only thing legendary is how much the Howitzer sucks balls. $800 is a lot to pay for a front shifting system that you use like 4 times a ride.


But it clearly states a lighter version for Am and a heavier version for freeride!

I'm not defending it or the price Ive never had a Howitzer either, Im an RF fan myself! and no ones holding a gun to your head to buy it, just state accurate info is all Im saying! I'm all for good bash, but least get the bash right, your reasons are fair and reasonable, I personally like the standard system, MTB is all about challenges for me, gearing is part of the skills to ride terrain, still Im open to new tech myself!

Everything comes down in price over a few years so if it is good no doubt it will too! It clearly states its high end only! so they are not pretending it to be for everyone or those that may not see advantages or understand them!

I don't like under the downtube cable routing not a biggie for some but in this age for me its a major, no excuse for it, maybe there is a reason with this though will wait and see some more!

I don't see where it mentions Howitzer! mentions Holzfeller anyways its semantics, its interesting stuff and like tabaya said like the GD it will be horses for course no doubt it won't suit everyone its still cool though and the benefits are interesting and more accessiable than a Gbox or something similar for anything other than a DH bike! keep the info coming!


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## Acme54321 (Oct 8, 2003)

Some bikes would ride like ass with that thing. I can tell you mine would, probably most VPP type four bars would. A lot of suspensions are optimized for the middle ring, that thing is basically a granny. Plus Truvativ cranks/bbs generally bring the suck.

That said, the clearance looks amazing.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

I wonder if they will work with Flypaper pedals........


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## KomodoRider (Jul 14, 2004)

Acme54321 said:


> Some bikes would ride like ass with that thing. I can tell you mine would, probably most VPP type four bars would. A lot of suspensions are optimized for the middle ring, that thing is basically a granny. Plus Truvativ cranks/bbs generally bring the suck.
> 
> That said, the clearance looks amazing.


True that! clearance looks good, it would make a blindside look like it has allot of clearance. to bad I already swore never to ride ISIS drive ever again!!!! @#*&$ I hate isis :madmax:


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## TLL (Apr 28, 2008)

. . . .


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Acme54321 said:


> Some bikes would ride like ass with that thing. I can tell you mine would, probably most VPP type four bars would. A lot of suspensions are optimized for the middle ring, that thing is basically a granny. Plus Truvativ cranks/bbs generally bring the suck.


Thats a really good point, I'd guess the bikes coming with it OEM have made adjustments to the frames maybe? If Herbold has been testing it for two years my guess is either it doesn't make a big enough difference or the companies have been warned to make adjustments in advance.

KomodoRider - Dude I swore off external BB's after I went through three of them last season! ISIS is where it's at!


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## jeng (Aug 12, 2005)

trailadvent said:


> But it clearly states a lighter version for Am and a heavier version for freeride!
> 
> I'm not defending it or the price Ive never had a Howitzer either, Im an RF fan myself! and no ones holding a gun to your head to buy it, just state accurate info is all Im saying! I'm all for good bash, but least get the bash right
> 
> I don't see where it mentions Howitzer!


Did you read the magicmechanics.com site bra? Under Specs it says "Design based on the legendary Howitzer BB"

What's with all the exclamation points dude? :skep:


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

https://fotos.mtb-news.de/img/photos/1/_/large/Truvativ_HS_AllMountainCrank.jpg


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## PsyCro (Jun 8, 2007)

tacubaya said:


> Shimano Hone M601 (SLX now) + Shimano XT FR + Blackspire Stinger <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< (much less) than 800. Do I shift between the front rings often? No... once when I begin to climb and once or twice during decent.
> 
> It's like a gravity dropper.... people will find it very useful while others not so much.
> 
> Cool innovation though!


Totally agree. Im on Hone drivetrain with an E13 DRS myself.. much cheaper and works great. Dont think this new product is gonna take over the dual ring market. But a nice addition it certainly is.

And for that kind of money it really makes more sense to invest in a Rohloff setup instead. But to each his own. Actually i suppose if one were to do a build from scratch.. rohloff drivetrain vs. derailluer/hammerschmidt setup... the cost would be similar.

Oh, and one more thing... this is probably just another step for the bike industry in delaying the inevitable.. fully sealed drivetrain like rohloff/nexus/millyard/etc. When those systems become the norm, SRAM and Shimano are gonna lose ALOT of money on drivetrain component sales.


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

NSMB has a bit of info... Propriatery shifter eh? Reverse shifting eh? Still sounds cool though... (except for isis.)

http://www.nsmb.com/page/s/2585/truvativ-hammerschmidt-first-look


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## trailadvent (Jun 29, 2004)

More here and here if not already posted

http://www.mtbtrailreview.com/blog/truvativ-hammerschmidt-released/reviews/#comment-1828

http://www.transcendmagazine.com/archives/2008/08/truvativ-hammer.html


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## KennyO (Apr 21, 2004)

well, I was trying not to get too excited. The idea of shifting gears in mid-air is awesome. $700-$800 helps me to NOT get excited. I'm afraid I wouldn't pay over 4 for it. especially if I can't run a grip&rip, and having to run isis. 3 steps forward, one step back I guess. I could get used to the trigger only being on front I guess, but isis... cmon. $7-800? I'll wait for someone to sell it off of their oem bike build.


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

The more I read the more exciting this seems. 

PS. I just defined "Marketing".


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

some weight info someone posted on foromtb.com


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## ThePunisher (Feb 15, 2006)

trailadvent said:


> More here and here if not already posted
> 
> http://www.mtbtrailreview.com/blog/truvativ-hammerschmidt-released/reviews/#comment-1828
> 
> http://www.transcendmagazine.com/archives/2008/08/truvativ-hammer.html


to add to that list
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Truvativ-HammerSchmidt-Preview-2008.html


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

crisillo said:


> some weight info someone posted on foromtb.com


Interesting... and Truvativs are not the lightest of the bunch. Pair it with some XT's or you could even throw in some Deus or even K-Force cranks (if you're into light parts and have riding finesse) and you're talking about even lighter for the conventional set-up.

The advantage comes from the mechanism not changing the chainline I think... an issue in muddy places. But then we still have to find out if the thing is going to hold up to weather.


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## aenema (Apr 17, 2006)

*This could ruin a lot of bikes' suspension*

It was said before but I don't think very many people understand why. All suspension designs are a compromise between pedalling and bump forces. The relationship/compromise is hugely affected by the pivot point in relation to the height of the chainline. We are not talking about chainline in regards to shifting, but in regards to pedal forces. If you have a high pivot, whether virtual or actual, you have a bike that typically has a rearward axle path that a LOT of manufacturers find desireable. If the suspension pivot is in line with the chain, then the torque forces from pedalling push into that pivot perpendicular the the suspension movement and you have neutrality. If the pivot is above the chainline, the torque will pull the wheel down. If the pivot is above the chainline, the torque will pull the wheel up. This is a simplification but in essence, is true. MOST frame manufacturers design the suspension to be neutral at somewhere around the 36-38 tooth equivilent chainring. This is done so that when you are downhilling, you are getting the best performance out of your suspension. It also has the benefit of giving you less bob when in the small chainring as the torque forces drive the rear wheel down, giving you better traction and less bob on the smoother trails. But it also gives you pedal feedback on the less than smooth trails. VPP, high single pivot, my Canfield Balance, etc, all have pedal feedback in the small ring. Some more, some less. Some people don't mind, some people HATE pedal feedback. It interrupts your pedal stroke, and can even kick your feet off the pedals if you hit abrubtly enough. 
I accept this as it means I have great suspension performance where it matters, going downhill. BUT, if I had a permanent 22 tooth front end, I would ALWAYS be dealing with pedal feedback. It would turn the bike I love to a bike I would not want to ride. It would limit how much travel I get and the bike would fight me the whole way down. No thanks.
One solution is to make the crankset a 36 tooth and make the gearing reduce to a .6 (or whatever) so you maintain the proper chainline in relation to your pivot point. This would sacrifice clearance but one I would be super willing to make.

In answer to its 'coolness'. I think it is great. The price is at a point that it is not worth going out and replacing existing front drivetrains, but if building from scratch it is worth looking into.


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

Forget it, I don't care anymore!


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## trailadvent (Jun 29, 2004)

! !


wormvine said:


> Everybody keeps mentioning pedal feedback issues because of the 22 tooth front ring.
> What is the main reason that the small ring has more feedback than the middle on VPP designs? Is it the gear ratio's? Is it the diameter or circumference of the ring? Mass of the ring.
> 
> I don't see how chainline will be an issue. The Hammerschmidt should have a way to optimize chainline. I don't see how actual physical dimensions of ring should matter. I see it more as the gear ratio. If that is the case, who cares what size drive ring there is.


Agreed, uses Isis on the drive side not sure if this is for Q factor or just how it all fits together the arm is designed with less bend looks good from the pics, woulda thought if that was out that would be the first thing reviewers would pick up! would be good to see it on some other frames, maybe they aren't keen to get into it who knows! e speculation at its best, like everything it will be good for some and not for some, either way its great to have something cool that's simple accessible definitely got me intrigued and it fits my existing bike whoohoo pity I can't ride booo but by the time I'm back should be well and truly tested and discussed to death lol:thumbsup:


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## Kevin G (Feb 19, 2007)

I imagine that SRAM is _hoping_ that manufacturers spec out their future frames to optimize running a HammerSchmidt...


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## aenema (Apr 17, 2006)

*problem with building frame for crankset is*



Kevin G said:


> I imagine that SRAM is _hoping_ that manufacturers spec out their future frames to optimize running a HammerSchmidt...


You can no longer do a high pivot (virtual or literal) if you design around HammerSchmidt unless you raise the bottom bracket. Makes much more sense to just throw a 36 tooth on it and tweak the ratios.

Again, super cool idea, just needs some tweaking and feedback.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

aenema said:


> ...If the pivot is above the chainline, the torque will pull the wheel down. If the pivot is above the chainline, the torque will pull the wheel up...


:skep:


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

aenema said:


> If the pivot is above the chainline, the torque will pull the wheel down. If the pivot is above the chainline, the torque will pull the wheel up.


Bro, somebody put acid in your viagra....

Been there, done that.


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## aenema (Apr 17, 2006)

*damn good idea*



Warp said:


> Bro, somebody put acid in your viagra....
> 
> Been there, done that.


two things that are meant to go together.

It seems that a lot of people aren't getting it and it is hard to explain without visual aids. If you want to understand more, PM me and I will discuss at length. I can tell you that I personally will not put on on my bike as it will make it ride like poo. People should make an effort to understand the dynamics before wasting a lot of money on a cool idea that their frame just isn't optimized for.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

aenema said:


> two things that are meant to go together.


:thumbsup:



aenema said:


> If you want to understand more, PM me and I will discuss at length


I know what you mean. Most motorcycles are designed with that in mind. And you're right, it's just the the wording came out fed up and I was making some phun in the process. It's all good.

But then you have bikes with variable IC, so trying to track the behaviour on those ones is even more erratic.

And no way I'm paying 800 for a crankset when my car's gearbox is barely 2 grands. Guess which one has more metal, parts, design hours, manufacturing and distribution costs.

Bikes need to cheap out some... It's a freaking bike, not the space shuttle.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2008)

Warp said:


> Bikes need to cheap out some... It's a freaking bike, not the space shuttle.


Oh man, how right you are... priceless

Same goes for the new Saint cranks, $475? Really? Are they that much more magical than the ones everyone was blowing out for $175 last year?


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Warp said:


> Bikes need to cheap out some... It's a freaking bike, not the space shuttle.


Epic quote.


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

Clutchman83 said:


> Epic quote.


ditto!

to my sig it goes...


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Nice line Warp... kudos!!


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

Oh and one more thing, in case it hasn't already been listed among the advantages - med cage rear derailleurs for everyone. Whoopie.


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## madnessmoose (Aug 22, 2007)

tacubaya said:


> Bah, you just need to get a good bike shop buddy who won't charge 400 dollars of commission....


$400 Commission?! I doubt the margins will be that much. It will probably be more along the lines of a 30%ish markup if that. Then someone will come in and low ball whatever shop with mail order pricing that is damn near wholesale. It's not a commission it's what business' do in order to keep their doors open and put food on their tables.


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## NAYR751 (Apr 22, 2006)

http://www.freecaster.tv/1000006_1005650
A video that tells me nothing about how it will affect my suspension.


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

Iceman2058 said:


> Oh and one more thing, in case it hasn't already been listed among the advantages - med cage rear derailleurs for everyone. Whoopie.


Medium? To hell with that, short cage all the way!


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## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

novato kid said:


> http://www.freecaster.tv/1000006_1005650
> A video that tells me nothing about how it will affect my suspension.


with so many bikes, suspension designs and pivot point placements, how is SRAM supposed to address how it will effect your specific bike?

how does your bike ride now in the 22 or 24t rings? that should give you a pretty good idea of what will happen if you mount the hammerschmidt.

SRAM built the device - now it's up to frame designers to decide if they want to engineer their bikes around it and address how it will affect their current designs.


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

[QUOTE='size]with so many bikes, suspension designs and pivot point placements, how is SRAM supposed to address how it will effect your specific bike.[/QUOTE]

I think, in general, most bikes are designed to work best with either the middle ring, or compromise between the middle and granny. The HammerSchmidt's ring size puzzles me, other than that it's a practical size as far as gearing is concerned.


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

Speedub.Nate said:


> Medium? To hell with that, short cage all the way!


Not quite sure if you can cover a full 11-34t cassette with a short cage...? (doesn't really matter what size the chain ring is if it is a single anyway). So I erred on the side of caution.


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

Iceman2058 said:


> Not quite sure if you can cover a full 11-34t cassette with a short cage...? (doesn't really matter what size the chain ring is if it is a single anyway). So I erred on the side of caution.


Well, considering a medium handles a double and even a systematically used triple just fine, a single shouldn't present a problem. Tooth capacity is around 30T for a short cage, well above a 11-34's 23T spread.


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

Speedub.Nate said:


> Well, considering a medium handles a double and even a systematically used triple just fine, a single shouldn't present a problem. Tooth capacity is around 30T for a short cage, well above a 11-34's 23T spread.


Cool, thanks for the info!


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## combatkimura (Jul 17, 2007)

I'm running a short cage X.9 with an 11/34 just fine. The amount of chaingrowth the bike has needs to be accounted for. My Blindside has a small amount of growth so I'm more than good and I can run very good tension as well.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

A short cage derailleur has a capacity of 25-30 tooth difference (shimano's actually have a higher capacity than advertised), so 34-11= 23t, you can use a short cage derailleur without problems if you have a single ring up front.

I have dual ring (22-32) and 11-34 cassette using a short cage XT and I am right in the limit without any problems whatsoever.


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## renderedtoast (Dec 6, 2006)

Didn't see it mentioned yet, but Bike magazine has a pretty good article on it.


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> I have dual ring (22-32) and 11-34 cassette using a short cage XT and I am right in the limit without any problems whatsoever.


Tacu.. but the "short cage" XT (GS-designation) is actually just a middle cage, AFAIK the new Saint is Shimano's first real *MTB *short cage (SS-designation)


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Here is a sneak peak at the real thing:

http://play.freecaster.com/v3/FCPlayer.swf?id=cEtleT0yJmFwSUQ9MTAwMDAwNiZjSUQ9MTAwNTY1MCZlSUQ9MTAwMDA5MiZ4aXRpSUQ9MTM=


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## DirtGash (Mar 1, 2008)

Everyone's a critic, but really until you ACTUALLY go out and ride the Hammerschmidt, everyone really doesn't no jackshit of how it is going to perform...period end of story.


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## aenema (Apr 17, 2006)

*In some regards, I respectfully disagree*

I know how my bike rides in the 22 tooth ring and why. I can't comment on the mechanics of the device but think it seems really cool and I like where it is going. The problem is, at 700-800 retail, discussions like this have to happen cause we can't afford to just "go out and ride it". 
It may shift superbly and exactly as advertised, but until they can build it with a 34-36 tooth ring, it would make my bike's suspension ride like poop.


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## DirtGash (Mar 1, 2008)

I'm sure most people test ride a bike with the suspension fork they want before plunking down $800-$1,500...at least I do. That's what manufacture demos and bike shops are for...test ride. Like anything else, I would test ride the Schmidt before purchasing, sounds like a whole lot of bikes are being spec' this year with them on it.... I haven't heard of any set price accept for what's being said on here...if that is true, that is pretty damn steep, but like a kick ass fork, may have no choice to get it after that test ride...dunno till I ride one, now will I???????????????????????????


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## aenema (Apr 17, 2006)

*But there is the catch*

They are spec'ing it on bikes that pedal well in a 22t configuration. Horst link and low (near bb) pivot bikes will do well in that ring. If I were to ride one of those and be blown away by its shifting performance, I may be inclined to buy it. But the problem may arise where my bike does not pedal well in the 22 tooth ring and after buying, I am stoked on its shifting but the suspension may not play as nice. 
This potential issue needs to be considered as I don't think a lot of people think about suspension performance in relation to size of chainring. It woudl be nice if shops carry a demo model and allowed you to throw it on your bike for a ride, but that is unrealistic for most places. 
Discussions like those in this thread help bring up potential issues that may not be discovered until after an item is purchased and installed. A potentially significant financial investment it sounds like.


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## JeepXJ3 (Jun 3, 2008)

kamikazee ideki said:


> 2009 norcos have it
> https://reviews.mtbr.com/files/2008/07/picture-093.jpg


Where was that pic taken? Hotel Lobby in Vegas?


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

crisillo said:


> Tacu.. but the "short cage" XT (GS-designation) is actually just a middle cage, AFAIK the new Saint is Shimano's first real *MTB *short cage (SS-designation)


I had a medium cage XT before and now I have a small cage and letme tell you the cage does look significantly smaller (roadie like)... or do you mean the medium cage is a long cage and the long cage is a super long cage??? :nono:


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> I had a medium cage XT before and now I have a small cage and letme tell you the cage does look significantly smaller (roadie like)... or do you mean the medium cage is a long cage and the long cage is a super long cage??? :nono:


just read the model on the RD....unless SHimano doesn't know their stuff...the new Saint is the 1st SS MTB cage (yeah, road RD like)


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Shimano whore


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> Shimano whore


HAHAHAHA...I only have a shimano RD on my commuter :lol:


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Personally I like where the hammerschmidt is going and I am pretty certain it will start a new standard...but, having said that, it is currently too high in price spec for what it does and I can understand that its a premium product as well. I think they would need to invest in new materials and design it lighter before I look twice again and have a tripple ring/ gear version aswell and make it WITHOUT the issis B/Bracket, which for all intensive perposes is more than a few steps backwards there.

At the end of the day, I think it is still too early to buy this product yet as it needs more testing, and what I say that I mean in terms of materials (making it lighter) and changing the BB to a new standard contemp versison. Its like I would like to combine this with a shimano XT crankset with a hope BBracket for AM as a beginning with an extra gear...


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> Shimano whore


Mr. Pot, meet Mrs. Kettle.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Hey Warp I just have a XT derailleur and Hone cranks... Crisillo has like 20 Shimano cranksets


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> Hey Warp I just have a XT derailleur and Hone cranks... Crisillo has like 20 Shimano cranksets


Yeah, man... but you swear on them more than Shimano themselves!


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Well... Hollowtech 2 is really really dope.


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## jawndoe (Feb 7, 2008)

Hammmerschidt user manual is here

http://magicmechanics.com/hammerschmidt/download/HammerSchmidtEnglish.pdf


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

dope....? Yo, wassup yo all...man dis silver thingy was dope N-the brown trials dis day...he he he Turn the hat back around Tacu mate. J/K

Have you ridden the new Saint cranks yet....? they ARE dope, wonder if Shimano will do a schmidt-thingy in the F?

JD...thanks for the manual.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

^^wtf?


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

Sim2u said:


> ...which for all intensive perposes is more than a few steps backwards there...





FROSTYBREWS said:


> lmfao thats mad cool but i like the bike i have i just HATE rear derailers their so flaud...


2 posts nominated for spelling mistake of the year.

Guys, STOP hanging out in the DH/FR forum 7/24 and go back to school.


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> Well... Hollowtech 2 is really really dope.


that is true! :yesnod:


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

tacubaya said:


> ^^wtf?


 
wtf...?  He he he...just razzing you up mate. thats dope yeah...?:ciappa: 

Iceman...yep! When it comes to speed typing my typo errors are laid out llike meat on the streets of Harlem...not pretty! Sorry mate, but I'm sure '*U*' can forgive 1or 2 here and there, but I would not go as far as to say that they are mistakes of the year though.

I think frostybrews had 2 of those typos with "Flaud" and his spelling or "derailers" as in "Derailluers are so flawed".

Originally Posted by *Sim2u*
_...which for all intensive p*e*rposes is more than a few steps backwards there..._


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

Actually, to make it to the short list for spelling/grammar mistake of the year, you need to get it seriously wrong. Your whole sentence needs to be "flaud"....hehehehe.... 

For example, frostybrews also snuck in the good old "their" instead of "they're", which bumped him right up there with the other nominees (...."their so flaud"...). I guess after that we can live with the american version of derailleur....it seems to be all over the place already (google it...)....so no points there for him. 

However, don't get yourself down with this talk of just the one little mistake....no no....your post was well worthy of being nominated as well:

the correct expression is "for all intents and purposes".....:thumbsup: 

All in good fun of course....


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Oh gosh he did too... They're not their, he he he!!!!

I think the idiomatic phrases/ phrasal verbs etc etc do vary somewhat from country to country aswell as the spelling too...but yep, at least I's ain't on the top O the list so that's dope yo, he he he.

But back to the topic...we should be getting some of the cranks to test out and rip open, exactly when is anybodies guess at the moment though. But I would really like to take it further though. For Sram to take a lead in this would be good to motivate others (industry) whom think they have all areas covered [not so of course].


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## nadinno78 (Mar 23, 2006)

Iceman2058 said:


> Oh and one more thing, in case it hasn't already been listed among the advantages - med cage rear derailleurs for everyone. Whoopie.


....


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

Sim2u said:


> Oh gosh he did too... They're not their, he he he!!!!
> 
> I think the idiomatic phrases/ phrasal verbs etc etc do vary somewhat from country to country aswell as the spelling too...but yep, at least I's ain't on the top O the list so that's dope yo, he he he...


Word, yo.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Sim2u.. drop the dope bong.


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## kenbentit (Jan 2, 2003)

Ok, unless I'm totally wrong with my understanding of how this system works wouldn't it correct the problems certain designs have when pedaling in the smallest ring? As I see it, the chain stays in the same position relative to the pivot no matter which gearing you're in which would help minimize feedback. If that's the case then they've made some huge strides in the right direction.


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## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

kenbentit said:


> Ok, unless I'm totally wrong with my understanding of how this system works wouldn't it correct the problems certain designs have when pedaling in the smallest ring? As I see it, the chain stays in the same position relative to the pivot no matter which gearing you're in which would help minimize feedback. If that's the case then they've made some huge strides in the right direction.


this system keeps you riding in the small ring all the time.


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

Warp said:


> Bikes need to cheap out some... It's a freaking bike, not the space shuttle.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

kenbentit said:


> Ok, unless I'm totally wrong with my understanding of how this system works wouldn't it correct the problems certain designs have when pedaling in the smallest ring? As I see it, the chain stays in the same position relative to the pivot no matter which gearing you're in which would help minimize feedback. If that's the case then they've made some huge strides in the right direction.


Absolutely. That's one of the often overlooked benefits of the Speedhub: you can pick a chainring to drive the chain through a pivot location, then pick a cog to match the selected chainring & desired gearing range.

The one downside of the Hammerschmidt is that the chainring size is limited to your desired granny gear, due to it being a gear multiplier. If they could change this up in a future version and make it a gear reducer, you could see some 32-34-36T chainrings.

Here's a couple of Speedhub installations where I've tailored the chainring size to the pivot location:

Fisher HiFi 29"er 29T chainring x13T cog:









Marin single pivot Mount Vision 34T chainring x 15T cog


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Sure, of course mate. Erm, but tell me...ah, how do you know what a Bong is...?



tacubaya said:


> Sim2u.. drop the dope bong.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

I read it in a "dope" encyclopedia


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

This is not my field either, but from my point of view this was "kind of" similar to how I saw it aswell. That regardless of front gear ratio, the chain position is constant to that of the pivot location on the SP even when changing from one gear to the next at any time. So the rotational torque curve from the outer ring to that of the inner granny ring on a dual or triple set up in relation to the pivot location, effects the leverage and feeback of the suspension at various point of the travel and that with the HammerSchmidt, this would be minimized. Where are the engineers man.:thumbsup:



kenbentit said:


> Ok, unless I'm totally wrong with my understanding of how this system works wouldn't it correct the problems certain designs have when pedaling in the smallest ring? As I see it, the chain stays in the same position relative to the pivot no matter which gearing you're in which would help minimize feedback. If that's the case then they've made some huge strides in the right direction.


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Ha ha ha, I BET you did!!!!

Something like this perhaps...? Link

or something like this...? Link



tacubaya said:


> I read it in a "dope" encyclopedia


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Sim2u said:


> Ha ha ha, I BET you did!!!!
> 
> Something like this perhaps...? Link
> 
> or something like this...? Link


Dude Erowid is DOPE....


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Or more commonly called "*The Vaults of Erowid*" or "*The Vaults*". Yeah that has some very funky stuff in terms of knowledge. Again, you know this how...? he he he

Sorry, side line conversation here.


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## buckoW (Feb 7, 2007)

DirtGash said:


> Everyone's a critic, but really until you ACTUALLY go out and ride the Hammerschmidt, everyone really doesn't no jackshit of how it is going to perform...period end of story.


I have ridden it. It works well with little drag.


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## jmitchell13 (Nov 20, 2005)

buckoW said:


> I have ridden it. It works well with little drag.


The first person on the thread that claims to have ridden it and that's all you say... More details please.

What bike was it on? How did it ride? Effects on suspension? How much did you pay, or did you demo?


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

All hail the advent of the dual-speed. That's like a single-speed with a "Help" button.


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

Well I'm really disappointed.
All the secret and then this? 

$750.00 - I would prefer to buy a 29` singlespeed for 3rd bike! I think it would be much more fun than a "CRANK"!
1,6kg - When a set like XT cranks (22+36+bash) and a Stinger and XT front derailleur weight below the 1,1kg?
Only two chainrings and a specific Granny ring? - for all the weight?
Isis BB - With all the problems encounter in the past with the bearings? What would be the problem to use a system like Raceface (spindle connected to the non drive side)?
Specific mounting tabs - like all the people would like to have to change frames
Specific shifter
And about suspension designed for the middle and big ring?

Sometimes we lost ourselves in the all this Hyper/Ultra new products, and forget about what makes it so fantastic sport!

After seeking for the new G-Boxx 2 and seeing a price tag of 3500€.... ahahahha! Are these peoples serious?

I think it's good that these things happen!
Makes me really think about what it's more important - having the last hype... or having more time to enjoy my self on the bike! 
Certainly and after almost 3 months in recovery (and continuing....) - I prefer the last and will wait for a real affordable and lighter version from SRAM/Shimano... what ever... Maybe it's to much time of the bike...


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## RadiotelemetrieMoskau (Mar 13, 2008)

Tkul said:


> Well I'm really disappointed.
> All the secret and then this?
> 
> $750.00 - I would prefer to buy a 29` singlespeed for 3rd bike! I think it would be much more fun than a "CRANK"!
> ...


g-boxx II, from an engineers point of view, is the cherry on top of a cake. (ok, a very heavy cherry!)
very well made, easy honest to god engineering. and the 4k euro price tag INCLUDES a frame, see alutech or reuber bikes. nicolai is more expensive of course, i mean, hell, its nicolai for gods sake.

been with the company for 2 months before i went to university, after you saw how they make their frames, you know why they can afford to call such hiddious price tags ...

btw, hammerschmidt will be a hell of a lot more expensive in germany. guess something around the 700/800 euro tag. i do not expect to see a lot of people buying it aftermarket. might have a huge impact oem, i do not know.

if you ask me its way to simple to be that expensive. and the granny ring would ruin the linkage of my frame. why didnt they just put a 36t on it and give you the granny via odd mechanics instead of the other way around? 36t ring is the one you use more than the small one where you wouldnt mind the loss of energy occuring when all the "magic" happens.

just my 2 €
stefan


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

They must be betting on people wanting the extra clearance of the Hammerschmidt bad enough to design frames around it. Looks like that is what it will take to get a bike to play nice with it (even my Spesh Enduro SL doesn't pedal as well in the granny as the in the middle ring, FSR/Horst link and everything...).


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

Pudel DH G-Boxx DHX5 coil - 3.419,00 EUR
Pudel DH DHX 5.0 Coil - 1.719,00 EUR

It`s a lot of money for 7 speed (1700€ for the drive train).
But a good thing having one in their catalog :thumbsup: 

It would be a dream if it could compete with traditional drivetrain and price could be paired up.

I think what it needs is some major brand to come aboard and "integrate" everything in one good, reliable and not so expensive bike! How can some bikes be so expensive almost as expensive as some motorcycles (MX). It`s unlogical... even for a Mechanical Engineer head - small handbuild, time to develop/proto/experiment/production, bla, bla, bla....


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## Kevin G (Feb 19, 2007)

Good Sick Lines write up here.


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## buckoW (Feb 7, 2007)

jmitchell13 said:


> The first person on the thread that claims to have ridden it and that's all you say... More details please.
> 
> What bike was it on? How did it ride? Effects on suspension? How much did you pay, or did you demo?


It was on a Scott Ransom, which pedaled fine due to the low pivot placement. It seemed to have a normal front trigger shifter and you could shift at anytime. I tested briefly the bike and would like to have that on one of my rides but it is heavier than a 2 ring chainguide system. Could be fun but nothing revolutionary. Some people say that the Scott is one of the best pedaling bikes for the Hammerschmidt. I rode the Ransom in the photo earlier in this thread, btw.


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## archer (May 20, 2004)

I was really pretty interested in this when I first heard about it.
It seemed like it would probably correct many of the shortcomings of the Schlumpf setup.
MSRP kills it for me however.

Warp's comment about the Space Shuttle and the comparisons by several people of bike prices vs. automobiles are observations I've made myself while I've been looking at new bikes. I'm just about to decide it isn't worth the trouble unless I break my current ride. Then if I have to replace it, on my nickel, I'll be looking for something in the KISS and inexpensive tradition.


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## joemamad (Oct 3, 2004)

Now lets see the hammerschmidt connected to a Rholff, both set up with belt drive pulleys, could there be anything smoother, quieter, cleaner, easier to maintain, (more expensive)? Could pave the way for a multispeed belt drive transmission.


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

joemamad said:


> Now lets see the hammerschmidt connected to a Rholff, both set up with belt drive pulleys, could there be anything smoother, quieter, cleaner, easier to maintain, (more expensive)? Could pave the way for a multispeed belt drive transmission.


I'm with you, except that the Hammerschmidt is geared WAY too low for the Speedhub.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Speedub.Nate said:


> I'm with you, except that the Hammerschmidt is geared WAY too low for the Speedhub.


Aren't there workarounds??

Smaller cog, bigger ring, removing off a few gears from a Rohloff?? I know the last one is stretching it up a bit, but I think it can be done.


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

Warp said:


> Aren't there workarounds??
> 
> Smaller cog, bigger ring, removing off a few gears from a Rohloff?? I know the last one is stretching it up a bit, but I think it can be done.


24x13 is the highest you could go, and that's a unusable 1.8:1 gearing ratio.

That be something like riding a 45T cog on a cassette as your granny gear.

Hammerschmidt doesn't look too friendly to chainring swaps. Realistically, you'd need a 30-32T chainring to pair with a 13T Rohloff cog, and that's the cog that wears fast and goofs up the chainline.

Neat idea, though. Schlumpf is still the workable way to go about this..


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

But why do you need more gears than what`s offer in the Rohloff? Really can`t understand that.
One of the major problem with the Rohloff is weight. +/- 600 grm more than a conventional drivetrain. Of course you have bullet proof transmission, but have to carry that extra-weight.
You could go the Gates belt solution saving +/- 200 grm compared with a single chained transmission.
Don`t know how it`ll work out with FS (because of the chain growth and necessary tension so that the belt works OK!).

Regarding Rohloff price, you have to take into account that you`ll change a cassetes, derraileurs... middle rings, when with a Rohloff eveything will last "almost" forever! So the hub will pay off around time.:thumbsup:


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

Tkul said:


> But why do you need more gears than what`s offer in the Rohloff? Really can`t understand that.


'cause you can never have too many gears!


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## Gravity Assist (Aug 18, 2007)

I think the Rohloff hub is sick, but its made to appeal to a crown of weight weenies that peel off stickers just to shave a few grams, let alone a 600 gram hub. They need to re-direct, and reinovate.

The HammerShmidt's rediculous 800.00 price is probably nessesary due to the fact that if it was in the 3-400.00 price range, people would probably go out of their way to put get it vice all the other conventional cranks... even Truvativ itself would loose money on its lower lines.

Its just a nice convenient thing to have.... You pay for lux and looks, but thats about the extent of it. A front derailleur as sufficed for quite some time now... it will hold its own until everyone puts out a crank as inovative as the hammershmidt, which won't be any time soon due to the patents..


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

*"(...)but its made to appeal to a crown of weight weenies(...)"*

almost 2 kg hub...weightweenies? 

More gears?!? How about stronger legs... :thumbsup: some, ride their bikes on one speed.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Gravity Assist said:


> A front derailleur as sufficed for quite some time now... it will hold its own until everyone puts out a crank as inovative as the hammershmidt, which won't be any time soon due to the patents..


Truth be told, with all of its problems and defects, the derailleur/chain system is hard to beat for the performance/money.

How much a mid-end decent drivetrain is (say, Hone level)?? Like $800 now? Shifters, cassette, chain, FD, RD, crankset... for the performance and price, hard to beat it.


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

Warp said:


> How much a mid-end decent drivetrain is (say, Hone level)?? Like $800 now? Shifters, cassette, chain, FD, RD, crankset... for the performance and price, hard to beat it.


oh...much less than that..... an SLX gruppo WITH DISC BRAKES is about 350 EUR


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

I was looking at the Rocky Mtn. site today as they have a few specs and listings for the 2009 bikes. They list the "Flatline Unlimited" equiped with Hammerschmidt. (No pics yet.) I have a Flatline, but I don't see myself granny-ringing any techy climbs with that bikes geometry...

http://bikes.com/main+en+01_102+FLATLINE_UNLIMITED.html?BIKE=565#2


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

I don't think this will be an option to run in conjunction with a Rohloff, the gearing would be below the threshold of their 2.4 to 1 cog ratio. and create too much torque, voiding the warranty.


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