# Grease chainring bolts?



## HTail (Jan 29, 2004)

I've just taking apart my XTR crankset, pedals and chainrings in hopes of getting rid of this ticking or clicking sound when I'm climbing.

Do you all recommend greasing the chainring bolts?
Grease or teflon tape the bearing cups into the BB threads?

In other words all metal to metal threads should be greased or thread-locked.... this seems to be the rule.


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## bike_freak (Dec 24, 2003)

HTail said:


> I've just taking apart my XTR crankset, pedals and chainrings in hopes of getting rid of this ticking or clicking sound when I'm climbing.
> 
> Do you all recommend greasing the chainring bolts?
> Grease or teflon tape the bearing cups into the BB threads?
> ...


 Yes, grease the chainring bolts. You could try a very very weak thread lock, but grease is enough.

As for the BB threads. Grease and plumbers tape are used together by many. I personally just use grease (waterproof such as Phil wood) unless it is a loose fit, then I useplumbers take aswell


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## tatchance (Mar 24, 2004)

*for a really noisy BB...*

at the shop we use an automotive MOLY-lube on any BB with vocal issues. seems to quiet most of the angry ones.


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## d-bug (Mar 18, 2005)

Take your pedals off and grease those threads as well. Make sure to get grease between the crank and the flat part of the pedal that touches the crank face. That's where my creaking always comes from. It seems to start creaking once I hit a rock with one pretty hard. This fixed my girl friend's bike as well.

I just grease the BB and chain ring bolts, plumbers tape would probably make it so the threads would be too hard to thread. IMO

Dan


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## HTail (Jan 29, 2004)

*Thanks*

Thanks guys for the advice. My BB, cranks/rings, derailleurs & pedals all needed some TLC and cleaning. It was a good excersise to take everything apart, clean and grease. I think the drivetrain will be smooth and quiet now!

BTW- I did both teflon plumbers tape and synthetic grease for the BB cup threads.


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

HTail said:


> Thanks guys for the advice. My BB, cranks/rings, derailleurs & pedals all needed some TLC and cleaning. It was a good excersise to take everything apart, clean and grease. I think the drivetrain will be smooth and quiet now!
> 
> BTW- I did both teflon plumbers tape and synthetic grease for the BB cup threads.


I don't grease chainring bolts and the one time I did the results were less than good.

I was installing a brand new 5 bolt Raceface turbine crank and figured I wanted to protect the bolts and threads from corrosion so I installed the chainring bolts with a light coat of grease. A few weeks later I was riding some sweet single track and I kept hearing this rattling and tinkling sound. When I stopped to check things out I discovered my small chainring barely hanging on by only 2 chainring bolts... 3 had gone A.W.O.L. and of the 2 remaining one was half way backed out. Except for that time I never lost a chainring bolt and I know I tightened these bolts to spec so I can only attribute this to the use of grease. 

Since then I never use grease on chainring bolts.

Karl


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## lifer (Feb 5, 2004)

*Use anti-seize*

You can get it by the pound jar in any auto parts store-no more stripping out little hex heads (even on "lock on" grip clamps)


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## openhelix (Mar 29, 2004)

Also remember that the use of grease will completely fubar all recommended torque ratings for bolts. Putting the recommended torque on a greased bolt will likely snap it, or stretch it beyond acceptable use.


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## HTail (Jan 29, 2004)

*Let you know*

I'll let you guys know how it works out (w/greased chainring bolts). I'm already anticipating having to retighten everything after the first ride. After a completle drivetrain overhaul, I will be completely mystified if that 'clicking' sound is still present !


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## Jesse David Smith (Jul 30, 2005)

openhelix said:


> Also remember that the use of grease will completely fubar all recommended torque ratings for bolts. Putting the recommended torque on a greased bolt will likely snap it, or stretch it beyond acceptable use.


Wrong. Most component manufacturers whose bolts need grease will say in their installation documents
"Grease bolts AND (then) tighten to xxx lbs/inches torque. Do you really think a crank manufacturer would determine the proper torque for their crank bolts without grease, then call for grease in their installation instructions?


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## sevenzero (Sep 8, 2005)

I've always greased pretty much everything I bolt on my bikes. If not grease, locktite or anti-sieze. I use anti-sieze on bottom brackets and have had no issues whatsoever, other than it's nasty, messy ish to wipe off. I've found over the years that the grease seems to keep debri, and even water out, to some extent. It makes taking the bolts out for servicing easier. I clean my bikes with the hose and never use a torque wrench, bad me.


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## the Inbred (Jan 13, 2004)

anti-seize on bb cups, crank bolts, pedals, and chainring bolts for me. actually, now that i think about it, i use anti-seize on just about all bolts.


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## openhelix (Mar 29, 2004)

Jesse, I'll forgive your rudeness. You obviously haven't been through high school physics yet. ALL torque specs are "dry". The amount of torque change due to lube/loctite/anti-sieze varies a large amount depending on the type of lube used. That's why all the manufacturers contain data for what % their product decreases necessary torque. Check out loctites website for more info. 

Bolt/component manufacturers can't be expected to guess what you'll use for final assembly.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

openhelix said:


> Jesse, I'll forgive your rudeness. You obviously haven't been through high school physics yet. ALL torque specs are "dry". The amount of torque change due to lube/loctite/anti-sieze varies a large amount depending on the type of lube used. That's why all the manufacturers contain data for what % their product decreases necessary torque. Check out loctites website for more info.
> 
> Bolt/component manufacturers can't be expected to guess what you'll use for final assembly.


Sorry, I agree with Jesse. You have it flipped 180 degrees. Virtually all torque specs are with lubricated threads. If you torque dry, you have a wide variety in tightness with a given torque value due to the differing fit of the threads.


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## openhelix (Mar 29, 2004)

MikeDee said:


> Sorry, I agree with Jesse. You have it flipped 180 degrees. Virtually all torque specs are with lubricated threads. If you torque dry, you have a wide variety in tightness with a given torque value due to the differing fit of the threads.


 Hmmm, looks at eng degree on wall.... Opens mechanical engineering text book... "All torque specifications for fasteners are always listed dry. This is due the differing properties of various lubes, pastes and other "wet" fastener prep material".


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

openhelix said:


> Hmmm, looks at eng degree on wall.... Opens mechanical engineering text book... "All torque specifications for fasteners are always listed dry. This is due the differing properties of various lubes, pastes and other "wet" fastener prep material".


Your text must be incorrect. To put threaded connections together dry is asking for galling, seizing, and corrosion. How could there be much variation in the coefficient of friction between various thread lubricants? I too have a degree in Mechanical Engineering. A training text I have from the Navy says "All threads should be clean and, in most cases, lubricated before a fastener is installed. this will allow a smoother and more accurate torque to be realized."

As an example, the instructions I have for my bottom brackets say to lube the crank bolts before torquing.


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## sevenzero (Sep 8, 2005)

MikeDee said:


> A training text I have from the Navy says "All threads should be clean and, in most cases, lubricated before a fastener is installed. this will allow a smoother and more accurate torque to be realized."


I grew up around guys who built race car engines, which requires many components to be torqued to exact specs. I've never seen a threaded fastener installed without some sort of loctite, silicone, grease or assembly lube applied to the threads first.

It seems logical that a lubricant would affect the final torque number somehow. Synthetic lubricants are supposed to create less friction than dinosaurs. After all of this, what could the real numbers be with and without prepping the threads with something?


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## archer (May 20, 2004)

Stainless fasteners used with stainless nuts are always lubricated unless you want to end up with ONE part as they gall together. The exception would be fasteners not designed to be removed but even those typically are produced with some sort of lubricant on the mating nut/collar.

As for torque values, they could be reported dry or lubed. My aircraft design referance material specifies values for both dry and lubed and whether the torque is applied to the bolt or nut.


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## cmdrpiffle (May 8, 2004)

My ENGINEERING DEGREE IS IN AEROSPACE, it's in a drawer somewhere....at my mom's house in Arizona. I'm employed by Boeing, and am sitting at my desk in San Jose right now...heed my words!!

So, my advice is tuck your head and shave your legs....you'll go faster !!  No, wait, the shave your legs part is for swimmers......now I'm all confused.

I've always lubed bolts with something. Phil Wood grease usually. You end up wasting less cause the opening on the tube is about half the size of competing brands. Plus, it's GREEN !! Who wouldn't want to use GREEN grease? I use a torque wrench on the important bits.....pedals, cranks, forks, stuff I don't wanna replace from reaming them out.

I've no idea if the specs are referenced for lubed or dry.

But I do know that all steel bolts/nuts have a light solution of oil applied at the end of the machining process to facilitate everything from automatic sorting to packaging. I'd assume that a small amount is still there unless you were to wash it off. 

Just a thought.


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## archer (May 20, 2004)

"My ENGINEERING DEGREE IS IN AEROSPACE, it's in a drawer somewhere....at my mom's house in Arizona."

Yeah my two (BAE, MSAE) are in the folk's safety deposit box in case of fire.

"I'm employed by Boeing, and am sitting at my desk in San Jose right now..."
Ahhh, union engineering labor.
One of the refs I was looking at BAC5009, don't exactly apply to bikes but it has the torque vals for most common aerospace fasteners.

I haven't worked with San Jose, you folks got more sense or less than the Boeing folks in Washington state or Kansas? 
Commercial or Mil? Structural, systems, controls, aero, stress, management, contracts?

Why is it that when Boeing wants something hard done fast they subcontract it out?
(I know, the same reason LM does, as soon as you try to do anything in house they want to charge you for all the overhead of the department doing the work for the YTD. There is always someone trying to break into the Aerospace bussiness who is willing to take on a contract at a narrow profit not realizing they are going to have to watch the prime like a hawk and BILL for over and aboves or they will do half the project for free.)

Sorry no offense intended, but I am curious as to your thoughts.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Blue Loctite*

I've always used blue loctite in many years of biking, and never had a CR bolt come loose or had a CR bolt sieze up.

.... I sheared off some alu granny gear bolts once, but they didn't come loose! I was even able to use an EZ-out on them.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

pimpbot said:


> I've always used blue loctite in many years of biking, and never had a CR bolt come loose or had a CR bolt sieze up.
> 
> .... I sheared off some alu granny gear bolts once, but they didn't come loose! I was even able to use an EZ-out on them.


I wouldn't recommend loctiting the chainring bolts. I did that once. The problem is the nut on the backside of the chainring is hard to hold on to, even with the right tool. It was a huge PITA getting them unbolted and worse getting them back on with the hardened loctite in the threads. I find, with chainring bolts, that if you tighten them up enough to begin with, they won't come loose.


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## sevenzero (Sep 8, 2005)

I spoke with a friend who assembles racing engines and he said:

"According to ARP (Fastener maker), You must TQ to different specs depending on what kind of lube you use on the washer or head of the bolt. I always lube the threads as I have seen bolts and studs seize up going in dry".


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## openhelix (Mar 29, 2004)

Thanks for the reassurance 7-0.


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## cmh (Jan 30, 2004)

*ugh...*

This is why I don't spend too much time on forums anymore.

_{looking at my BS in Mech Eng}_

_{realizing that an otherwise useful thread has been hijacked by a pissing match}_

_{realizing that it didn't take a degree to figure that out...}_

Jeez.


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## cmdrpiffle (May 8, 2004)

CMH: Mmmmkay then !

bye bye


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## openhelix (Mar 29, 2004)

I didn't say they should be put together dry, just that the torque spec is dry. Then various lube/grease manufacturers spec the delta by percentage. That's why you need a hard number for dry torque.


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