# What's the deal Landis? (Merged Thread)



## Maskedman (Jun 12, 2005)

I know this is potential flamebait, but I wondering what the heck Floyd Landis is thinking...

He was supposed to do a street-race yesterday in the Netherlands and didn't show up, and today nobody has heard from him and he's supposed to do a street-race in Silkeborg, Denmark but yet again nobody has heard from Landis?  

I know these are small races compared to Le Tour, but come on loads of kids wants to see their tour hero on the streets, so this must be very disapointing.


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## fred3 (Jan 12, 2004)

Didn't you watch the tour? He's do for a hip replacement really soon. Since he rode in some pain for 20+ day's it's likely he's getting ready for the surgery. Once he gets your okay that is. ;-)


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## Maskedman (Jun 12, 2005)

fred3 said:
 

> Didn't you watch the tour? He's do for a hip replacement really soon. Since he rode in some pain for 20+ day's it's likely he's getting ready for the surgery. Once he gets your okay that is. ;-)


Well, at least he could have told the people in charge of the races that he wasn't racing. They've tried contacting Landis, his private agent and people at Phonak but nobody is responding.

A danish paper clamis that the positive doping test taken after the Morzine stage, where Landis crushed his opponents, and that it was Landis who was tested positive  But I don't really trust that paper, so it might just be a rumor.


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

Positive test!!!!

Don't you think they would have pulled him out of the race right there if that had happened???

I do agree though that it would be considerate for him to have let someone know he wasn't coming.


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## Maskedman (Jun 12, 2005)

mopartodd said:


> Positive test!!!!
> 
> Don't you think they would have pulled him out of the race right there if that had happened???


No, they wouldn't pull him out of the race. This was just a positive A test, they will reveal the name of the rider if the B test is positive as well...


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## fred3 (Jan 12, 2004)

I could be wrong, but you don't usually dope the day before a stage do you???


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

Anyone have any links to this positive test deal with Floyd? I'd really like to read up on this.


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## Maskedman (Jun 12, 2005)

mopartodd said:


> Anyone have any links to this positive test deal with Floyd? I'd really like to read up on this.


They're just speculating, it hasn't been determined that it's Landis' that was tested positive.

The link to the positive test during the tour is here: http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10587.0.html

Papers are only wondering since he stayed away from 2 races.


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## dr hoo (Jan 12, 2004)

First, the article you linked to does not speculate on who it was, nor mention Landis missing races.

Second, the reason both samples must test positive is that there is such a thing as false positives. Given literally hundreds of samples during the tour, a false positive at some point is pretty likely. Two false positives is highly unlikely for the same person, which is why they do and A and B test and not just an A test.

Finally, the post Tour races are crits, and are basically exhibitions. A chance for name riders to pick up some cash (appearance fees as well as prize money) and people to see the riders. Missing them is no big deal. It's like a baseball player not showing up to a card show to sign autographs.

So I think you might want to wait and see what happens. Seems to me that a certain other American was slagged in the euro press about doping, but never ended up with any positive tests.


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## Maskedman (Jun 12, 2005)

dr hoo said:


> First, the article you linked to does not speculate on who it was, nor mention Landis missing races.


I said that it was the paper that speculated, not that the link would provide the name to the rider or say that it was Landis' test.

Links to the story about Landis missing races are here (warning: danish):

http://www.dr.dk/Sporten/Tour_de_France/2006/07/27/084753.htm?sporten
http://www.berlingske.dk/sport/artikel:aid=770416/

According to Danish television, neither the Danish or the American Cycling Assosciation has been contacted by the UCI, they say that pretty much clears all Danish and American riders. :thumbsup:


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## duff76 (Jun 1, 2006)

I just hope he doesn't skip out on Leno. He is schedueld for this friday.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Let's see.... the guy just finished riding for 21 days straight w/ 2 rest days, has a bad hip - Personally I think he's recovering and doesn't feel like riding in any races the week after doing all that.


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## RetroG (Jan 16, 2004)

Maskedman said:


> According to Danish television, neither the Danish or the American Cycling Assosciation has been contacted by the UCI, they say that pretty much clears all Danish and American riders. :thumbsup:


Then why the F are you even mentioning it?


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## Yeti_Rider (Dec 26, 2003)

*problem with that is*



fred3 said:


> Didn't you watch the tour? He's do for a hip replacement really soon. Since he rode in some pain for 20+ day's it's likely he's getting ready for the surgery. Once he gets your okay that is. ;-)


he had committed to doing hte races while he already knew he was going to have the hip replacment surgery. he didn't just decide mid-way through the tour that he couldn't bear it any longer.

just like in golf, races get big name athletes to commit for the advertising dollars they can bring. wihtout them, the event may go to pooh.............

the UCI stated that ONE rider in the tour has tested positive for doping but that rider is not German or French. Who is it? we'll find out soon enough......

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=afp-cyclingusadennedlandis&prov=afp&type=lgns

YR


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## fred3 (Jan 12, 2004)

The fact is he may have indeed contacted who he was supposed to. We all know how the news make their own news when none is available.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Maskedman said:


> I know this is potential flamebait, but I wondering what the heck Floyd Landis is thinking...
> 
> He was supposed to do a street-race yesterday in the Netherlands and didn't show up, and today nobody has heard from him and he's supposed to do a street-race in Silkeborg, Denmark but yet again nobody has heard from Landis?
> 
> I know these are small races compared to Le Tour, but come on loads of kids wants to see their tour hero on the streets, so this must be very disapointing.


He's probably thinking, "Where the f*** is Silkeborg?"


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## Maskedman (Jun 12, 2005)

Phonak has just said that it WAS Floyd Landis who was tested positive...


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## xl_cheese (Jan 6, 2004)

I think it's lame he's a noshow at those crits with no warning.

Those people invested lots of time and money to get him to come and then he gimps out on them.

The least he could do was contact them and let them know.


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## xl_cheese (Jan 6, 2004)

Maskedman said:


> Phonak has just said that it WAS Floyd Landis who was tested positive...


where's the link?


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## xl_cheese (Jan 6, 2004)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3


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## dr hoo (Jan 12, 2004)

Maskedman said:


> Phonak has just said that it WAS Floyd Landis who was tested positive...


Yep, it was him. Testosterone was the substance. Bummer.

Just announced on MSNBC.


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

*Omg..*

Just saw on MSNBC that Landis was tested positive for testosterone. Now I'm no roadie expert by any means, so I'm not sure if that's considered "doping". I would think it is though.

At first I thought he may be just laying low because he decided to go under the knife for that hip, but I'm curious to see how this pans out.

:skep:

All I know is it would be a total shame if it's found that he doped. This was such a great Tour.


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## trailbrain (Feb 22, 2005)

*Msnbc*

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14059185/


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## bacchanal (Aug 4, 2004)

It's true...

http://www.eurosport.com/cycling/tour-de-france/2006/sport_sto933039.shtml

:madman:


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

He could always pull a Bonds and say.."hey, somebody must've spiked my beer with it".:thumbsup: 


BTW, I'm sure you guys have heard that Levi will be riding with Team Discovery. Not a thread hijack, just a heads-up.


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## dubjay (May 5, 2004)

*Floyd Landis fails drug test!*

Just caught this on the header on cnn.com. Anyone have details? I hope it's not true. I found myself really cheering for him.


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## bike=good (May 2, 2005)

God, I hope this is just a false positive...

We'll have to wait for the B-test...


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## 05stumpy (Jul 21, 2005)

could be a natural thing perhaps?? Maybe they can do some tests on him to see if he naturally produces excess testosterone?


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## GuruAtma (May 17, 2004)

"High levels of testostorone"...Maybe he was just a manly man? The article doesn't say much:


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

I wonder how good ol' Robbie Ventura is going to explain this one!


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## notrelatedtoted (Mar 3, 2005)

His "A" sample failed. Now they wait to see if the B sample confirms it. 

Personally, I'm oscillating between "not surprised" and disgust.


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## Reposado Man (May 31, 2005)

Kind of reinforces my belief that they're all using.. Only the smart ones use stuff that isn't known about yet.


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## scarynickname (Jan 10, 2006)

notrelatedtoted said:


> His "A" sample failed. Now they wait to see if the B sample confirms it.
> 
> Personally, I'm oscillating between "not surprised" and disgust.


yeah, I'm right there with you.


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## Jaybo (Mar 5, 2008)

*The race is crazy*

I believe many of the riders use something to get an edge. If you win the tour, you are guaranteed riches beyond imagination. Of course they will do whatever to win. Disquisted? Why? This is big boy racing with a lot at stake.

Jaybo


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## uofabill (Aug 5, 2003)

*Positive test?*

www.espn.com. The headlines there say that Phonak announced on their website that Floyd tested positive for excess testosterone. I couldn't get on the phonak website to see what it said.


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## bike=good (May 2, 2005)

This is the most comprehensive article I have seen...

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10591.0.html


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## konajay (Jan 20, 2004)

Does any one else find it odd that this is the third of Lance's ex-domestique's (sp?) that has tested positive in the last 2 years


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## preparation_h (Feb 1, 2004)

bike=good said:


> This is the most comprehensive article I have seen...
> 
> http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10591.0.html


I'm not a doctor but don't they usually give steroids out for many reasons? Could he be taking mediacation for his hip?

But if the B test does come back positive it's pretty much par for the course for PHONAK.


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## scarynickname (Jan 10, 2006)

Jaybo said:


> I believe many of the riders use something to get an edge. If you win the tour, you are guaranteed riches beyond imagination. Of course they will do whatever to win. Disquisted? Why? This is big boy racing with a lot at stake.
> 
> Jaybo


If you think cheating is ok since this is "big boy" racing, then how far can it go? Why not put an engine on your bike, it would help you win.


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## stealth1 (Sep 11, 2004)

:cryin: Floyd say it aint so!!!:bluefrown:


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## Knuckles (Nov 25, 2004)

Why he's not racing in the crits (from VeloNews):

"In application of the Pro Tour Ethical Code, the rider will not race anymore until this problem is totally clear."


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## SeanL (May 4, 2005)

I sure do hope that this is a false positive, because that will crush my impressions of Landis. After his Stage 17 win I put him on a pedestal. 
But...I guess thats the problem with putting someone on a pedestal. [/waxing lyrical]


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## blatido (Sep 14, 2005)

I don't know why is people surprised about it: everybody in the world of road cycling knows almost every competitor uses something to enhance body performance. Or does anybody really think that you can ride +3,600Kms at an average speed of +40 Km/Hr in 20 days just drinking Gatorade? And this is not exclusive to road cycling: MTB, baseball, tennis, swimming... you name it.

I insist: legalize doping in sports. It's the only way to avoid this "surprises".


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## LCdaveH (Jan 5, 2005)

*Maybe he missed the races because*

The Phonak Cycling Team issued the following statement Thursday, confirming Landis as the rider in question:

.snip.
In application of the Pro Tour Ethical Code, the rider will not race anymore until this problem is totally clear.

If the result of the B sample analysis confirms the result of the A sample the rider will be dismissed and will then pass the corresponding endocrinological examinations.
.unsnip.

(Personally, I call "bushit" until conclusive facts are in. I just hope I'm not a gullible optimist. (Regardless of the B sample and other stuff, this development and the suspicion it creates will be an indelible taint on Floyd and a further taint for the '06 tour)).


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## bike=good (May 2, 2005)

What really sucks is that they released the results of the A test before they even conduct the B test. If the B test is negative (and I hope it is), Landis' performance's from here on out will be questionable. He's already guilty in the eyes of the world, as witnessed in the mainstream media's reporting and the tenor of those articles... I thought this process was supposed to be anonymous until the B test was conducted?


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## kmoses (Apr 24, 2005)

ON NO! Floyd day it ain't so! I guess we'll have to wait and see after the "B" ample is tested.

What the hell is the "B" sample anyway, a second sample taken after the first. What the hell is that going to prove. Anything in the blood should be homogenous throughout, so if he had a spike in testosterone that day, for whatever reason, shouldn't the result be the same. How does it confirm anything? Someone please explain!


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## bacchanal (Aug 4, 2004)

I think his team released his name, not the UCI


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## Reposado Man (May 31, 2005)

My understanding is they only announced that "a rider" tested positive yesterday, when the A sample failed. Now that they've released the name, I'm assuming that the B has already been tested. Could be wrong, but it makes sense to me.

If you are taking a substance for theraputic reasons (eg his bum hip) then you need to submit for an exemption and get clearance. No excuses!


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

bacchanal said:


> I think his team released his name, not the UCI


I think you are right. It became apparent when he was missing races he committed to competing in.

Is it possible that the cortisone shots he was receiving could cause the high levels? Any doctors out there?


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## neveride (Feb 7, 2004)

kmoses said:


> ON NO! Floyd day it ain't so! I guess we'll have to wait and see after the "B" ample is tested.
> 
> What the hell is the "B" sample anyway, a second sample taken after the first. What the hell is that going to prove. Anything in the blood should be homogenous throughout, so if he had a spike in testosterone that day, for whatever reason, shouldn't the result be the same. How does it confirm anything? Someone please explain!


The purpose of the "B" sample is many: there could have been intentionally tampering with the "A" sample, unintentionaly contamination, mistakes, etc. The idea being that its always possible a mistake is made with, and they don't wan't to ruin a career because of a mistake or someone with an agenda. Thats the idea, in a perfect world, anyway.


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## dr hoo (Jan 12, 2004)

Reposado Man said:


> My understanding is they only announced that "a rider" tested positive yesterday, when the A sample failed. Now that they've released the name, I'm assuming that the B has already been tested. Could be wrong, but it makes sense to me.


I have seen nothing about the B sample yet. I think the name was put out because the rumors were flying around, and most likely someone leaked it.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I read that Phonak stated that they will fire Landis if the B test comes back positive.


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## Scribb (May 4, 2006)

I don't know enough about physiology to do more than speculate, but it's interesting the positive test showed up at stage 17, his epic ride. Could a dose of EPO have explained his miraculous recovery? Or is it possible that riding with enough balls to beat the entire field by six minutes would produce an excess of natural testerone?


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## ribaldmanikin (Mar 9, 2006)

Hypothetically, doesn't pain cause an increase in testosterone levels?


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## kaalgsio (Sep 21, 2005)

mtbfool said:


> Is it possible that the cortisone shots he was receiving could cause the high levels?


unfortunately no. disappointing...


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## kaalgsio (Sep 21, 2005)

Scribb said:


> Or is it possible that riding with enough balls to beat the entire field by six minutes would produce an excess of natural testerone?


not enough to fail a drug test.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

*Pulled this from an unconfirmed source but...*

"Cotizone shots for his hip that WERE ALLOWED by UCI can swell the levels of testosterone in the body."

"Leydig cells of the testes synthesize testosterone, a process that is suppressed by events initiated by the binding of corticosteroid to glucocorticoid receptors (GR). Depletion of active steroid mediated by 11 beta HSD may initiate testosterone production at puberty and affect testosterone production during adult life, as for example during periods of stress."


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

kaalgsio said:


> unfortunately no. disappointing...


I didn't think so. Thought I would ask. D*amnitalltoh*ll Floyd.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

LyNx said:


> Let's see.... the guy just finished riding for 21 days straight w/ 2 rest days, has a bad hip - Personally I think he's recovering and doesn't feel like riding in any races the week after doing all that.


He was contracted to be at these races, the apperance fee for the current TDF winner is something like 60,000 Euro.

He also raced and won a race the day before he didn't show.

There is speculation on the Roadbike Pro Cycling board that he is in Paris getting the B sample tested.

This is a really bad day for pro cycling.


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## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

I hope that "B Sample" comes up negative!
I'd be very disapointed...
:nono:  :sad: 
Brian


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## Judd97 (Jun 6, 2005)

kmoses said:


> ON NO! Floyd day it ain't so! I guess we'll have to wait and see after the "B" ample is tested.
> 
> What the hell is the "B" sample anyway, a second sample taken after the first. What the hell is that going to prove. Anything in the blood should be homogenous throughout, so if he had a spike in testosterone that day, for whatever reason, shouldn't the result be the same. How does it confirm anything? Someone please explain!


Yea, they claim that it helps prove that its not a natural occurence, but I don't get what difference it would make...

I really hope this is just a mistake...


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## kaalgsio (Sep 21, 2005)

Jisch said:


> "Cotizone shots for his hip that WERE ALLOWED by UCI can swell the levels of testosterone in the body."
> 
> "Leydig cells of the testes synthesize testosterone, a process that is suppressed by events initiated by the binding of corticosteroid to glucocorticoid receptors (GR). Depletion of active steroid mediated by 11 beta HSD *may initiate testosterone production at puberty and affect testosterone production during adult life*, as for example during periods of stress."


unfortunately floyd has already gone through puberty.

affect it how? make it increase? decrease? corticosteroids do not build muscle.


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## ribaldmanikin (Mar 9, 2006)

Maybe it's time to start up the Tour d'Amsterdam where every rider gets as much dope as they want. At least it'll be open and an even playing field.


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## mattbikeboy (Jun 8, 2004)

Okay, just to be a pain. Didn't you see his interview after stage 17 --- his freakin' eyes were jumping all over the place. I'm no expert but I though he looked strung out. He also looked extremely pumped up and angry when he crossed the finish line on that stage. I would have though he would have looked happy and extremely tired. I know winning in such an important juncture will get you fired up -- but he just rode 100+ miles over monstrous mountains and still had enough energy and fight to push people away from him when we crossed the line.

I'm really hoping that the B sample comes back negative. I thought it was absolutely awesome that he won. Freakin' Dopers suck for everyone -- even us poor recreationalists. One of the guys here in the office told me this morning I sound like someone just told that Santa doesn't exist. What's this about Santa? :madman: 

I'm going home to bed.

mbb


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## Old Dawg (Feb 28, 2006)

xl_cheese said:


> I think it's lame he's a noshow at those crits with no warning.
> 
> Those people invested lots of time and money to get him to come and then he gimps out on them.
> 
> The least he could do was contact them and let them know.


By ethical racing standards he cannot race:

The Phonak Cycling Team issued the following statement Thursday:
The Phonak Cycling Team was notified yesterday by the UCI of an unusual level of Testosteron/Epitestosteron ratio in the test made on Floyd Landis after stage 17 of the Tour de France.
The Team Management and the rider were both totally surprised of this physiological result.

The rider will ask in the upcoming days for the counter analysis to prove either that this result is coming from a natural process or that this is resulting from a mistake in the confirmation.

*In application of the Pro Tour Ethical Code, the rider will not race anymore until this problem is totally clear.*
If the result of the B sample analysis confirms the result of the A sample the rider will be dismissed and will then pass the corresponding endocrinological examinations.

Please understand that we cannot at this time give you more detailed comments.

Floyd isn't a no show because he is a jerk, he is a no show because that is what is required when you have been accussed of doping and failed an "A" test.

OD


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## AZClydesdale (Jan 12, 2004)

*roadbikerider newsletter: "YELLOW GOLD"*

This newsletter came earlier this morning highlighting what is at stake.

**********
Yellow Gold

The Tour de France winner traditionally gives his prize money to his team, but don't think Floyd Landis won't come out of this season a very rich roadie.

According to lancasteronline.com, he's due to receive a $2.5 million bonus from his team, Phonak, for winning the yellow jersey. Floyd is completing a three-year, $700,000 contract with Phonak and will surely see a boost in endorsement deals. (It's estimated that Lance Armstrong's annual endorsement income tops $17.5 million.)

Floyd's contract with Phonak ends this year and a new sponsor, iShares, is taking over the Swiss-based squad. Although team owner Andy Rihs generously extended all of his Tour riders' contracts by one year in celebration of Floyd's victory, it apparently doesn't mean cycling's new top dog is a lock to stay with the team.

Discovery Channel has been talking informally with Floyd for several months. Interest may have cooled yesterday, however, when the team signed Levi Leipheimer away from Gerolsteiner for the 2007 season. After no clear leader emerged during the just-completed Tour, Discovery apparently considers the 32-year-old American a potential team captain.

Landis, meanwhile, must get past a major obstacle or he won't be riding for anyone. The replacement of his deteriorating right hip is expected to happen soon to allow maximum time for healing before the 2007 season. Until the operation, he'll continue racing. This week he's scheduled to ride in a couple of Dutch races for big appearance fees, he may be at a Chicago criterium on Aug. 13, and the weeklong Tour of Britain is a possibility at the end of August.

Landis, 30, says he'll soon decide which team he'll sign with for '07. Phonak/iShares has the inside track, he admits, because he likes the riders and owner.

"Right now I'm trying to sort things out with my current team," he says. "I'm happy here and I think we have a formula that works. Nothing against [Discovery] but I'm proud of the team I'm on."


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## zon (Nov 4, 2004)

This quote is important to note:

"The World Anti-Doping Agency has lowered the limit for the maximum T/E level from 6:1 to 4:1. Some athletes have naturally high levels, and can prove this through a series of tests. "

Maybe the guys just a natural stud. Probably has stones the size of grapefruits. Inocent until proven guilty.


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## Fat Elvis (Jan 14, 2004)

Scribb said:


> I don't know enough about physiology to do more than speculate, but it's interesting the positive test showed up at stage 17, his epic ride.QUOTE]
> 
> Well, you'd have to know how many times he was tested during the tour. I thought they always tested stage winners (not positive). If he was only tested after stage 17, then it's not really a coincidence, it was just the only time he was tested during the race.
> 
> ...


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## fireboy (Jan 12, 2004)

konajay said:


> Does any one else find it odd that this is the third of Lance's ex-domestique's (sp?) that has tested positive in the last 2 years


Yes, but probably NOT for the same reasons YOU do.

If the "doping hounds" are correct, and Lance was doping during his 7 years, but never offered a positive sample, wouldn't you think that his "domestiques" would have been clued in on how to avoid the positive result?? To me, finding out that his team mates are in violation and Lance never was, reaffirms that Armstrong did it dope free.....or at least illegally dope free.

I hope this situation is #1 explainable #2 not another French attempt at crucifying a US rider.


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## babar (Feb 20, 2004)

dopers sucks and once again the guy will claims that he is innoncent like Tyler, Richard Virenque, Lance, Botero, Ulrich , Basso.
Everyone knows in le peloton that the best doctor are Mr Ferrari and Mr Fuentes, Fuentes network is out let's see what will happen with Ferrari network


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## hfly (Dec 30, 2003)

preparation_h said:


> I'm not a doctor but don't they usually give steroids out for many reasons? Could he be taking mediacation for his hip?


Big difference between an anabolic steroid such as testoserone, and a catabolic steroid such as prednisone that is commonly used to treat inflammatory conditions.


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## fireboy (Jan 12, 2004)

babar said:


> dopers sucks and once again the guy will claims that he is innoncent like Tyler, Richard Virenque, Lance, Botero, Ulrich , Basso.
> Everyone knows in le peloton that the best doctor are Mr Ferrari and Mr Fuentes, Fuentes network is out let's see what will happen with Ferrari network


Gee...there are names in there that have never given a confirmed positive...think it's fair to lump them in that group???

what happened to innocent before proven guilty??? I guess that's only for American citizens.....and only if they are NOT TdF champs???


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## Fat Elvis (Jan 14, 2004)

babar said:


> dopers sucks and once again the guy will claims that he is innoncent like Tyler, Richard Virenque, *Lance*, Botero, Ulrich , Basso.
> Everyone knows in le peloton that the best doctor are Mr Ferrari and Mr Fuentes, Fuentes network is out let's see what will happen with Ferrari network


Yes, and some will always proclaim that they're guilty, even when they have ZERO proof. Tell me again when Lance was ever caught doping.


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## fireboy (Jan 12, 2004)

Amen, brutha Elvis, Amen....:thumbsup:


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

Fat Elvis said:


> Well, you'd have to know how many times he was tested during the tour. I thought they always tested stage winners (not positive). If he was only tested after stage 17, then it's not really a coincidence, it was just the only time he was tested during the race.


In one day races they test the top 3 and others randomly. So if that is true for stage races, he would have been tested on Stage 11.

I know people do stupid things, but I can't imagine him taking something like testosterone the day of or day before a stage he was going to try like hell to win. The winners are tested.

edit: now that I think of it, I think they yellow jersey wearer is tested after each stage. Maybe the top 3


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## Howeler (Sep 23, 2005)

People it's simple...really...

He has high levels of testoserone, because he has HUGE BALLS!

*The test used was based on Lance Armstrong's levels, and he only has one nut, thus the elevated levels in two-ballers!*


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Phonak had an announcement on their site a couple of days ago that Floyd had signed with them.


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## catch22 (Apr 30, 2004)

I had to laugh a little this morning when I read about this. A couple minutes after Landis regained the yellow on the time trial I was on the phone with a buddy and one of the first things we talked about was the over/under on how many days until the Frechies would call Floyd a cheater. I wish I could take the reports seriously but it's really hard to after the past few years. As someone else mentioned, I also have trouble believing that he decided to dope up knowing he had to blow the field away that day, he smart enough to know that that would bring on all kinds of scrutiny from race officials. Guess they must have run out of witches to hunt over there.


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## AlanB (Jan 12, 2004)

Just wanted to say Hi to all my homies currently viewing this thread. Almost _everbody _is on it.


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

catch22 said:


> I had to laugh a little this morning when I read about this. A couple minutes after Landis regained the yellow on the time trial I was on the phone with a buddy and one of the first things we talked about was the over/under on how many days until the Frechies would call Floyd a cheater. I wish I could take the reports seriously but it's really hard to after the past few years. Guess they must have run out of witches to hunt over there.


Oh believe me, they're are plenty of b*tches over there in France. Chrisotphe Moreau comes to mind. OHHHH, sorry, you said witches.


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## K'Endo (Dec 23, 2003)

Just to put an end to the rampant speculation about who is tested, and how they're selected, why not just go to the UCI rules website?

http://62.50.72.82/imgArchive/Rules/14ant-E.pdf

Appendix 2, "selection of riders to be tested":

I. ProTour (one day events)
• General rule
1. ProTour leader if he is present,
2. The winner,
3. Two riders selected at random by the inspector,
II. ProTour (stage races)
• General rule
1. ProTour leader after the first stage if he is present,
2. ProTour leader after the last stage if he is present,
3. The winner of the stage,
4. The leader of the general classification after the stage,
5. Two riders selected at random by the Inspector.

Landis would have been tested every day he was in yellow.

Kn.


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## Fat Elvis (Jan 14, 2004)

K'Endo said:


> Landis would have been tested every day he was in yellow.


Assuming he was present.


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## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

mtbfool said:


> Oh believe me, they're are plenty of b*tches over there in France. Chrisotphe Moreau comes to mind. OHHHH, sorry, you said witches.


If this is what is really going, and I wouldn't but it past "the french", they are getting worse each year they don't do well...
Poor french..
     
Brian


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

K'Endo said:


> Just to put an end to the rampant speculation about who is tested, and how they're selected, why not just go to the UCI rules website?
> 
> http://62.50.72.82/imgArchive/Rules/14ant-E.pdf
> 
> ...


It wasn't just speculation. It was more me trying to recall. I've done some contract drug testing for USADA. Obviously I didn't recall very well, but it varies from sport to sport and event to event. Hence the "General Rule." Thanks for the link.


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## papervagina (Oct 1, 2005)

Testosterone is used to aid recovery. Here's a quote from Jörg Jaksche's doctor, Kurt Moosburger, on how it's used:

"You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster."

You can read the rest of his comments at the bottom of this page: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul07news3

Maybe Floyd stuck too many patches on his balls?


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

papervagina said:


> Testosterone is used to aid recovery. Here's a quote from Jörg Jaksche's doctor, Kurt Moosburger, on how it's used:
> 
> "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster."
> 
> ...


Your first post is about someone's balls. That's pretty funny.


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## canadian-clydesdale (Oct 13, 2004)

Dopers suck. 

Why is it hard to believe Landis doped? Many others have, the pressure to suceed is high, and from the looks of things the medicine cabinet is wide open!


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## K'Endo (Dec 23, 2003)

Fat Elvis said:


> Assuming he was present.


Well, Landis is not the protour leader for one thing (Valverde is) and for another "present" means 'entered in the race', as opposed to having wandered away to enjoy a beer. If a rider withdraws from a race, then anti-doping tests become somewhat moot.

Kn.


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## Littlewolf (Jul 21, 2006)

AZClydesdale said:


> "....Until the operation, he'll continue racing. This week he's scheduled to ride in a couple of Dutch races for big appearance fees."


Actually he didn't show up for the netherlands or the dutch race, and Phonak stated they would fire him if the B test also came out positive.

http://www.comcast.net/sports/others/index.jsp?cat=OTHERSPORTS&fn=/2006/07/27/442981.html

All I can say is I hope its not true.

In some sports its a competition to see who has the smartest, sneekiest chemist.
At least in bicycling there is some enforcement as opposed to American baseball where were just pleased as punch to give away Babe Ruth's home run title to a cheater.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Well thanks for the heads up, I thought it was like a charity thing to help them out. I guess after standing in l ine at the bank and having CNN flash that Landis failed the drug test explained why he didn't show. Unfortunately wheather or not his B sample clears things up people will always see him as a doper. Testosterone is something I think that can vary greatly in men.



CraigH said:


> He was contracted to be at these races, the apperance fee for the current TDF winner is something like 60,000 Euro.
> 
> He also raced and won a race the day before he didn't show.
> 
> ...


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## J-mizzle (Feb 4, 2004)

*OT: WTF Floyd Landis positive *

F*ck:madman: :madman: :madman:

Landis has basically tested positive for roids.:nono:

here is the link

http://sports.aol.com/tourdefrance/...s/20060727103109990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

We basically just lost the best current US rider.

Peace,
John


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

Isn't it remotely possible that it's natural to have a higher testosterone level after a day like that? I mean testosterone isn't exactly a "drug", like EPO or something, is it? Is everyone here thinking he actually shot himself with extra the morning of the stage? No way, he'd have been caught earlier. He's getting a bum rap on this one.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

1) It wouldn't suprise me if they all use some degree of chemical enhancements and/or doping. Imagine being a clean guy at your peak, but being an also-ran due to dopers like Basso and Ulrich. You'd feel you HAD to dope just to level the playing field. I'm not saying it is right, but the pressure would be overwhelming. I think they all do enhancements right up to the limits to "level the playing field" if for no other reason.

2) I don't imagine a TDF podium contender would be stupid enough to 'roid himself up to double the legal ratio. That said, he did not necessarily exceed a quantity limit- just the ratios were off. The gallons of water he drank in that stage, or possible all of the cortisone he was taking for his hip, may have affected the way these hormones were produced or absorbed in his urine. Lets not start a lynch mob here.


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## mthedude (Jun 8, 2006)

curtlo-dork said:


> Isn't it remotely possible that it's natural to have a higher testosterone level after a day like that? I mean testosterone isn't exactly a "drug", like EPO or something, is it? Is everyone here thinking he actually shot himself with extra the morning of the stage? No way, he'd have been caught earlier. He's getting a bum rap on this one.


Agreed, I think the French are just pissed they still can't bring the yellow jersey home after clearning the top field out of the way and they'll ulitamately find that the samples are clean, just like Lance's 99 sample that A was dirty and B can't be found.


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## el_chupo_ (Nov 15, 2005)

Curtlo - according to the article "Under World Anti-Doping Agency regulations, a ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone greater than 4:1 is considered a positive result and subject to investigation. The threshold was recently lowered from 6:1. The most likely natural ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in humans is 1:1.". 

I would bet that they take the ammounts naturally occuring in the human body into consideration when making these limits. producing twice the normal ammount is pretty high, and they allow 4 times the normal ammount. They have reasons for the limits, and if it were natural, the limits wouldnt be there. 

As far as him shooting the morning of the stage - who knows. It could be medicine for his hip. It could be a pill, or shot. Maybe he had a drug test the day before, and didnt figgure he would get one that day. Who knows. It could be a mistake... either way, Barry Bonds (the no good, bastid @$(#*) is breaking records, and EVERYONE knows without any doubt, including the court system, that he is doping...

Matt


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## mthedude (Jun 8, 2006)

I look at it a couple of ways......one, if he really wanted to cheat, he would have access to some of the best drugs and best doctors available to help him cheat. 2, wouldn't he have tested postitive prior to this as he was leading the tour at one point (don't they test the overall leader at least once during the tour?). 3, why don't they let the teams collect samples as well as the testing officials? That way if a positive came up you could do a quick test and not have to wait 2 weeks for the B sample (Tangent: Why does the B sample take 2 weeks when the A results are out sooner than that?). 4, According to Men's Health, what you eat can impact testosterone levels, maybe not to the levels claimed in the test but given the fact he was on Cortizone and under extreme and intense physical stress perhaps the food/drink combo with Cortizone could elevate. I wouldn't think shooting up roids the day of a huge stage would actually help you, if it was Amphetamines, I could see it but natural testosterone shouldn't have that great of an impact on the short term. We need some body builders to chime in, if he did in fact shoot up w/roids or something like that, wouldn't his level be way higher than 4:1?


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I think all the clean riders are riding at the back of the pack or in support or quit years ago. The ones at the top found out early on that you need more than talent and training to win a grand tour.
The French are not out to get us anymore than we are out to get them. These conspiracy theories seem too far fetched to me. If I were in charge of the TDF the last thing I would want to do is to bring dis honor to it regardless of who won.
As much as I raked LeMond over the coals I am starting to believe him.


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## uofabill (Aug 5, 2003)

*The "B" test*

I am wondering of the B test being discussed is a different more thorough process. I know in the case of the BSE (Mad Cow) testing, there is a preliminary test (maybe call it the "quick and dirty")which, if positive, they then run what they call the "Gold Standard" test in Ames, Iowa to confirm. It is a different process. They have even sent some samples to England for further testing. So there are a couple of possibilities, I) they run the same type test again on a different sample, or 2) it is a different type of test done on a different sample? I don't know the answer to that.


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## mthedude (Jun 8, 2006)

richwolf said:


> I think all the clean riders are riding at the back of the pack or in support or quit years ago. The ones at the top found out early on that you need more than talent and training to win a grand tour.
> The French are not out to get us anymore than we are out to get them. These conspiracy theories seem too far fetched to me. If I were in charge of the TDF the last thing I would want to do is to bring dis honor to it regardless of who won.
> As much as I raked LeMond over the coals I am starting to believe him.


The French hate us, they hate everyone, they hate themselves. There's no doubt they hated Lance and I honestly think there's enough money in the Euro Cycling world to make these doping scandals rise to the top. And what about Landis' own team basically ratting him out and saying he's guilty until proven innocent? American's aren't too popular over there.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

mthedude said:


> I look at it a couple of ways......one, if he really wanted to cheat, he would have access to some of the best drugs and best doctors available to help him cheat. 2, wouldn't he have tested postitive prior to this as he was leading the tour at one point (don't they test the overall leader at least once during the tour?). 3, why don't they let the teams collect samples as well as the testing officials? That way if a positive came up you could do a quick test and not have to wait 2 weeks for the B sample (Tangent: Why does the B sample take 2 weeks when the A results are out sooner than that?). 4, According to Men's Health, what you eat can impact testosterone levels, maybe not to the levels claimed in the test but given the fact he was on Cortizone and under extreme and intense physical stress perhaps the food/drink combo with Cortizone could elevate. I wouldn't think shooting up roids the day of a huge stage would actually help you, if it was Amphetamines, I could see it but natural testosterone shouldn't have that great of an impact on the short term. We need some body builders to chime in, if he did in fact shoot up w/roids or something like that, wouldn't his level be way higher than 4:1?


Logic would say if they cheat they will cheat smartly. Ask Roberto Heras about that one along with Hamilton and scores of others. Heaven knows what his other tests came in at. Perhaps they were just a whisker below the trigger level. I am sure they err on the side of caution when they set their standards. When normal is 1:1 and he is over 4 times that, that would raise a little suspiscion in my book. No wonder Amber looked so haggard the next day!


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## K'Endo (Dec 23, 2003)

mthedude said:


> Agreed, I think the French are just pissed they still can't bring the yellow jersey home after clearning the top field out of the way and they'll ulitamately find that the samples are clean, just like Lance's 99 sample that A was dirty and B can't be found.


Frankly, the French have nothing to do with it. Rules and regs about testing, how samples are processed and how the news of test results is released are clear, rigid and not subject to nationalism. The UCI's rules are examined and approved by WADA, an organization free of national ties.

There's really no need to spread this kind of rumour and bigoted tripe around.

Kn.


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## K'Endo (Dec 23, 2003)

mthedude said:


> The French hate us, they hate everyone, they hate themselves. There's no doubt they hated Lance and I honestly think there's enough money in the Euro Cycling world to make these doping scandals rise to the top. And what about Landis' own team basically ratting him out and saying he's guilty until proven innocent? *American's aren't too popular over there.*


Gee ... I wonder why?

Kn.


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## TheotherH (Jan 21, 2004)

Maybe Floyd stuck too many patches on his balls?[/QUOTE said:


> Ouch! And I thought roadies only shaved their legs.....


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## brenth (Jun 13, 2005)

Floyd speaks

I really hope he is telling the truth.


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## bacchanal (Aug 4, 2004)

not sure if anyone has posted this yet

a report with SI spoke to landis
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...act/index.html

edit:damn you beat me!


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## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

*Landis Replies: On SI.com*

I don't know if there has been posted but there is a story on SI.com, where Landis denies the use.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/austin_murphy/07/27/landis.react/index.html?cnn=yes
Brian
I want to believe too!


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## fireboy (Jan 12, 2004)

canadian-clydesdale said:


> Dopers suck.


That's pretty funny, coming from north of the border...what??....OOOHHHH.....THAT kind of "dope"....now I get it!! FREEDOM 35!!! Give me back that cat, Bubbles!!


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

brenth said:


> Floyd speaks
> 
> I really hope he is telling the truth.


Why would he lie????


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

The rules are set up on an almost year to year basis as the science??? progresses???,
Even if he is guilty this year, he may be not guilty next year, or last year.

I don't trust the testing and rule makers just yet as well.

I will wait and see if he confesses and to what he confesses if and when he does.


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

jeffscott said:


> I don't trust the testing and rule makers just yet as well.


Just as much of a problem as the dopers themselves.


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## Maskedman (Jun 12, 2005)

I really hope that Landis speaks the truth and I do want to believe him, severals reasons actually.

This year was a great TdF, most exciting one in a quite a few years. 

It would be a killing blow to the cycling-world who was recovering nicely from the scandals a few years back.

He rode a damn good and intelligent TdF, won the yellow jersey and the race by riding hard and not by having a monster crew to do the hard work for him.

Here's to hoping that Landis speaks the truth.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

K'Endo said:


> Frankly, the French have nothing to do with it. Rules and regs about testing, how samples are processed and how the news of test results is released are clear, rigid and not subject to nationalism. The UCI's rules are examined and approved by WADA, an organization free of national ties.
> 
> There's really no need to spread this kind of rumour and bigoted tripe around.
> 
> Kn.


Ken, you gotta stop this type of thinking right away. We need SOMEONE to hate. the middle east situation will not last forever


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

AlanB said:


> Just wanted to say Hi to all my homies currently viewing this thread. Almost _everbody _is on it.


Hey Al, see you in Whistler on Friday :thumbsup:


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

CraigH said:


> This is a really bad day for pro cycling.


yet another really bad day.  Not sure how much poor publicity the sport can take.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

blatido said:


> I insist: legalize doping in sports. It's the only way to avoid this "surprises".


Could be interesting. Especially in a few more years as genetic engineering advances at a rate and is virtually undetectable.

No, honest, this guy ALWAYS had four legs.......

:madman:


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## bacchanal (Aug 4, 2004)

Well, I haven't come to any conclusions in my mind about Landis...other than, this is just plain sad.

I can't say the same abou the UCI though. If this is so damaging to the sport, why did this come out before there was more proof. They said it was a top rider from and the test was from stage 17...which led to all the speculation and basically forced Phonak to make their statement saying it was Landis.

It's not so much that I'm tired of a sport where doping is so common, but I hate the idea of a sport where clean riders are forced to sit out in an effort nab the dirty ones. Maybe it's the american in me, but I'd rather see dopers win than see clean riders sit out.


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## K'Endo (Dec 23, 2003)

006_007 said:


> Hey Al, see you in Whistler on Friday :thumbsup:


Me too, me friday too. I'll be doing practice runs for Sunday's DH.

Kn.


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## bacchanal (Aug 4, 2004)

found this

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol56/fourdrug.htm

_Substances such as alcohol and birth control pills affect the T/E ratio. At best it is a "shotgun" approach to locating signs of cheating. If a positive test is revealed, then the athlete must really be "juiced" on testosterone or a new derivative. When there are no tests for specific forms of steroids it is possible to pass the T/E test but still be cheating. Alternatively, it is possible to test positive for an anabolic steroid but pass the T/E ratio test. To avoid T/E positives, some cheats also increase epitestosterone levels (through injection or topical application) to reduce the ratio since both substances will be elevated but in acceptable balance._

also check this out:
powerlifting suspensions T/E ratios anywhere from 9:1 to 150:1
http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsletter/14/medical/medical.html


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## bacchanal (Aug 4, 2004)

here's the WADA guide to elevated T/E ratios...it seems they basically determine if the source is endogenous or exogenous and what the implications of the results may be. It doesn't really say what they would do in the case of Landis where the cause of the results may be exogenous (cortizone), but also approved for use.

WADA guide


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

K'Endo said:


> Me too, me friday too. I'll be doing practice runs for Sunday's DH.
> 
> Kn.


You racing? Can I get your autograph? I just nair'd my right butt cheek :ciappa:


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## catch22 (Apr 30, 2004)

bacchanal said:


> found this
> 
> http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol56/fourdrug.htm
> 
> ...


and the average ratio for a French cyclist is about .0004:1


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## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

*Landis Replies: On SI.com*

I don't know if there has been posted but there is a story on SI.com, where Landis denies the use.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/austin_murphy/07/27/landis.react/index.html?cnn=yes
Brian
I want to believe too!


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Thanks for the story link.


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## DanB (Jul 10, 2004)

*They All Cheat*

It is unfortunate and sad but true, if everyone at the top level is cheating and you are at the top level, then your cheating too. Lance, Tyler, all of them, I wish it weren't true but it is. A pro rider who was over in Europe for some time RR'ing and then came back to the US and raced MB's told me "they all do it, and the more money they have the better they can do it and the less likely they will be to get caught". Let's see who's the richest rider ever, and who hasn't gotten caught even though the writing is all over the walls? Funny how he always finds a way out of trouble, he wields power and he has money. Think it's a coincidence that Frankie Andreu just got fired from Toyota-United after his testimony against Lance?

Sorry to be the wet blanket but it is sad and it is true, bike racing unfortunately like most things in life boils down to money. Preems are bought and sold during races and riders look for any edge they can find to win because it is their career on the line and let's face it who wants to go back to a regular life after pro bike racing if you don't have to.

My .02

Dan


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## bmateo (Jan 13, 2004)

From what I have gathered, he does not have elevated testosterone, but an elevated ratio, and his testosterone was actually slightly below normal.

I saw one reporter on ESPN doing an interview: Apparently the other thing that they compare the testosterone too (I forgot what it's called) was exceptionally low, causing the ratio to go high. When the reporter asked the expert what could account for this, one possibility is fatigue. It seems that he might be the victim of a test that has a few loopholes in it.

Then again, he might have been hitting the juice too


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## IBBW (Mar 24, 2006)

*It was bound to happen*

Well you knew it was coming.

Another American kicks butt and the crying starts. Boo Hoo. Get used to Americans winning the Tour. Did he do it?? Personally,I don't care. Lance faced the same crap every Tour. My bets are on NO he didn't dope. Are they gonna let it go?? No way. The VIPS of the Tour are out for blood against the Americans. I have watched his monumental attack several times now. He was putting in the ride of his life. His teams actions after the fact.......... when it was all over I would dump them like a bad habit.

You could see the disdain in the eyes of Jean Marie Leblanc when an American was once again crowned KING.

Get over it. :thumbsup:


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## Judd97 (Jun 6, 2005)

DanB said:


> It is unfortunate and sad but true, if everyone at the top level is cheating and you are at the top level, then your cheating too. Lance, Tyler, all of them, I wish it weren't true but it is. A pro rider who was over in Europe for some time RR'ing and then came back to the US and raced MB's told me "they all do it, and the more money they have the better they can do it and the less likely they will be to get caught". Let's see who's the richest rider ever, and who hasn't gotten caught even though the writing is all over the walls? Funny how he always finds a way out of trouble, he wields power and he has money. Think it's a coincidence that Frankie Andreu just got fired from Toyota-United after his testimony against Lance?
> 
> Sorry to be the wet blanket but it is sad and it is true, bike racing unfortunately like most things in life boils down to money. Preems are bought and sold during races and riders look for any edge they can find to win because it is their career on the line and let's face it who wants to go back to a regular life after pro bike racing if you don't have to.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't necessarily say that that is all true. I mean... you really have no basis to say that other than "a pro rider told me", and really, what credibility does he have anyways? And on top of that, what credibility do YOU have for us?

Sorry, but I refuse to believe that they ALL dope, and I really don't think Lance did.

Just my .02


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Judd97 said:


> I wouldn't necessarily say that that is all true. I mean... you really have no basis to say that other than "a pro rider told me", and really, what credibility does he have anyways? And on top of that, what credibility do YOU have for us?
> 
> Sorry, but I refuse to believe that they ALL dope, and I really don't think Lance did.
> 
> Just my .02


Why do people always ask for proof of doping but when the handwriting of past cheats is all over the wall and they just ignore it? Perhaps we should ask the riders to prove they have never doped? Obviously only the most rampant dope use is detected. How did all the caught dopers go through most of their careers without getting popped? It either takes sloppy doping or a botched measurement to go over the test parameters. It seems like the big numbers are caught via doping scandals like Festina or this Spanish deal.
I just can't believe that Jan and Basso and all the others used the same doctor. That just spells stupid to me. If I were a top level rider making a bunch of money and I were cheating, I would make it more discreet than that.
Face it, cycling is in the midst of it's biggest doping scandal ever. It shows just how pervasive doping is in the sport, and how tempting it is.
That is why I don't enjoy the sport just for racing. It is fun to watch but how can you not get totally turned off about what it really is? Money and cheating. Give me an empty open road or trail for my own 2 wheel nirvana.


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## Judd97 (Jun 6, 2005)

richwolf said:


> That is why I don't enjoy the sport just for racing. It is fun to watch but how can you not get totally turned off about what it really is? Money and cheating. Give me an empty open road or trail for my own 2 wheel nirvana.


Best thing said in this thread so far.

It is disappointing how widespread drug use is in the sport, but I still don't agree that all racers are corrupted like that. Its sad to see such big names in the list, but I still say innocent until proven guilty.


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## carbuncle (Dec 9, 2005)

There are a lot of good points here on both sides, and it's a good discussion. For one, I will wait to see what comes next before condemning Floyd. I think the French hate Americans winning the tour, and I think this test is a far cry from proof positive. The SI artice is compelling, too. I want to believe...


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

Not sure if everyone's heard this, but here's the link to the phone press conference that Landis held. It's in mp3 format. I have yet to listen to it yet, but I just downloaded it to the 'puter.

http://www.velonews.com/media/Landis.mp3


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

What I've heard is that his Testosterone level was actually quite low, but the problem was that is Epitestosterone level was abnormally low. So he actually didn't have a "high" Testosterone level, it was a case of an abnormal ratio. What they are trying to find out is why his Epitestosterone level was so low. There is talk that Corticosteroid injections he's receiving for his hip can dramatically lower Epitestosterone levels. Basically creating a false positive. The thing is Steroids do nothing for short term performance, he'd be risking everything for no reason.


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## mthedude (Jun 8, 2006)

There was a sports medicine Dr. on ESPN today that said his levels of Testosterone weren't elevated, it was just the ratio of Testosterone to Epitestosterone was not normal, he acted as if the testosterone levels were actually quite low but epi was higher than usual, so I'm not too sure what to make of all that since everything else I've heard is that his level was elevated. Another expert in the medical field said he would have had to been doping w/Testosterone for over a week in order for his levels to be what they were and none of his other tests came back elevated.


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## HPilot (Jan 30, 2004)

fred3 said:


> I could be wrong, but you don't usually dope the day before a stage do you???


How could just one day of increased testosterone get you that much of an increase in performance? Rediculous!!! This is starting to ruin the ability to watch professional biking. First Lance, now FLoyd. If it were a Frog, they wouldn't even consider.


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## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

Here's "another" article in today's SL Tribune.
http://www.sltrib.com/sports/ci_4106555
I aremain hopeful..
Brian
 :sad:


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

mtbbrian said:


> Here's "another" article in today's SL Tribune.
> http://www.sltrib.com/sports/ci_4106555
> I aremain hopeful..
> Brian
> :sad:


Good article. I wonder what the Dick (Pound) thinks about one of his boys speaking out.


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

We'll see what Floyd has to say in about two minutes at his press conference from Spain.


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

psinsyd said:


> We'll see what Floyd has to say in about two minutes at his press conference from Spain.


Where did you get that bit of info?


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

mtbfool said:


> Where did you get that bit of info?


Nevermind. Got it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14059185/


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## DBomb (May 19, 2004)

Littlewolf said:


> At least in bicycling there is some enforcement as opposed to American baseball where were just pleased as punch to give away Babe Ruth's home run title to a cheater.


Babe Ruth lost his title 30 years ago. 

I never understood the fascination of beating a SECOND place record...


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## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

*From The Press Conference...*

Landis says his testosterone is naturally high, and he'll prove it

July 28, 2006 
MADRID, Spain -- Floyd Landis said he has naturally high testosterone levels, and will undergo tests to prove he is not guilty of doping at the Tour de France.

"We will explain to the world why this is not a doping case but a natural occurrence," Landis said Thursday in his first public appearance since a positive doping test cast doubt on one of the most stirring Tour de France comeback wins in history.

Updated on Friday, Jul 28, 2006 12:05 pm EDT 
From Yahoo.....

I sure hope this is really the case.
Brian
 :sad:


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

DBomb said:


> Babe Ruth lost his title 30 years ago.
> 
> I never understood the fascination of beating a SECOND place record...


It's BALCO creating all the noise to prove their products work.:thumbsup:


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## ChrisWFO (Jul 28, 2005)

Of course he has high testosterone levels, he's an American male. My god its not like he's french or something!


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## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

*The FRENCH!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?*

Another story from Yahoo....
Those $&*@#!! French!

French papers blame Landis for spoiling great Tour

PARIS (Reuters) - French newspapers blamed Floyd Landis on Friday for ruining what had looked like a thrilling Tour de France following the news that the American had tested positive on his way to victory.

"Landis's fault," screamed Friday's headline of the sports daily L'Equipe, whose publishing group organizes the event.

"Caught up by doping, Landis can lose everything," read a headline in daily Le Parisien. The accompanying report said the cycling world was disgusted with the news that Landis had tested positive for the male sex hormone testosterone.

Le Parisien pointed out that Landis could become the first Tour winner to be disqualified for doping if a second sample confirmed the positive test.

The newspaper also quoted Spain's Oscar Pereiro, who finished second overall and could be declared the winner, as saying he would rather remain second and learn that Landis was innocent.

L'Equipe wrote that testosterone alone could not explain how Landis had staged a remarkable comeback in the race's last mountain stage, a day after struggling badly in the French Alps.

"Testosterone is not a stimulant with immediate effects, even if it has been used in the search for such results in fight sports," the newspaper wrote. "It does not give an immediate boost but has a long-term effect on the power of the engine." 
:madmax:    :nono:

Kudo's to Pereiro for waiting it out. :thumbsup:


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## Fat Elvis (Jan 14, 2004)

mtbbrian said:


> The accompanying report said the cycling world was disgusted with the news that Landis had tested positive for the male sex hormone testosterone.


So they're disgusted that Floyd is a bonafide male?


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## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

Fat Elvis said:


> So they're disgusted that Floyd is a bonafide male?


LOL!
I wouldn't put it past the French for thinking that!
:thumbsup:   ut: rft: :lol: :smilewinkgrin:


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Floyd's news conference video is worth watching.


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## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

I guess Landis will be on Larry King tonight...
Should be worht checking out.
Brian


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

I think he was scheduled to be on Leno tonight too. Not sure if that's going to happen or not.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

But the question still nags.... If Floyd naturally produces high levels of testosterone normally, why didn't previous test indicate this? I think it's as simple as that, unless someone can produce evidence that putting out such an effort as he did that stage can seriously raise the level that much. 

Still think it's wrong to let everyone know about it till everything is complete and taint someones rep, 'cause no matter what happens there will always be the questionmark on his name.


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## SeanL (May 4, 2005)

Here's an interesting read. http://boulderreport.bicycling.com/2006/07/tour_de_specula.html


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## TrekFan (Apr 21, 2005)

forgot to watch. did he show up on leno?


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## SeanL (May 4, 2005)

TrekFan said:


> forgot to watch. did he show up on leno?


I don't think so, when he was on Larry King, he was there via camera from Madrid.


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## Quasi (Jul 4, 2004)

This looks like a pretty good article:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/othersports/279372_landisbar29.html


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

Quasi said:


> This looks like a pretty good article:
> 
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/othersports/279372_landisbar29.html


Good article. thanks! So I guess there are some forms of testosterone out there that could have an immediate benefit. That doesn't bode well.

Floyd needs to step up and ask for the carbon test.


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## Quasi (Jul 4, 2004)

mtbfool said:


> Good article. thanks! So I guess there are some forms of testosterone out there that could have an immediate benefit. That doesn't bode well.
> 
> Floyd needs to step up and ask for the carbon test.


I am not sure it really matters. I am not knowledgeable on the rules of the TDF, but knowing how Europeans write laws, I suspect the rules of the TDF outlaw the T/E level explicitly as opposed to outlawing doping which might have caused the levels. So if the retest confirms it was not a false positive, it doesn't matter if it was the result of doping, a drug for his bad hip, his beer, or whatever, he will be disqualified.

The rules would outlaw the T/E levels precisely because they don't think they can test for all possible drugs which would influence performance. If Floyd can show that he is naturally this way or that there was some other reason causing his T/E level, maybe they will change the rules down the line, but Floyd will never get the yellow jersey back for this year. The rules are the rules. Just like when those other riders were forced to withdraw merely because they were on a list in a doctor's office. There was no proof they had taken any banned substance.

If the B test result is the same, I suspect Floyd will lose the victory whether he can show he is naturally this way or otherwise innocent of doping. If he could show that something was added to his sample(s) later to make them bad, he would probably be able to keep the win. But he would have to do his own tests on the samples for foreign matter which might have been added to lower the epi count or increase the testosterone level. I doubt he will be given a chance to do that.


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## fireboy (Jan 12, 2004)

*Lance comments after returning from RAGBRAI*

Lance states that he now has big concerns the tests were inaccurate. I guess the lab that tested Floyd's Stage 17 "a" sample was the same lab that L'Equipe used to try to nail him on his 1999 "a" sample, but when pressed, couldn't produce the "b" sample....or even proof they actually HAD part of the old "a".

Screw the French media. The Tour of Georgia just became my favorite Pro Stage Race.


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## Fat Elvis (Jan 14, 2004)

fireboy said:


> Lance states that he now has big concerns the tests were inaccurate. I guess the lab that tested Floyd's Stage 17 "a" sample was the same lab that L'Equipe used to try to nail him on his 1999 "a" sample, but when pressed, couldn't produce the "b" sample....or even proof they actually HAD part of the old "a".


I suspect that they are going to measure similar T/E ratios with the B sample, and then declare that he doped. However, it's pretty clear that a lot of the science behind these doping tests is nonsense. I want to know what the absolute testosterone levels are in both of these samples, as well as in all the other urine samples that they took from Landis throughout the tour. To me, that is the only thing that matters. It's pretty clear in the literature that the T/E ratio in athetes can vary naturally. It's also clear that dopers can take testosterone, but that they can keep their T/E ratio in check by also taking epitestosterone. The idea that the doping officials just look at the T/E ratio in urine samples, and use it alone to make a judgment on whether or not doping has occurred is absolutely outrageous, imho.

I also have little faith in the integrity of these laboratories. These are the same clowns that passed off a set of "anonymous" archival urine samples from the '99 tour to a French tabloid for "research." Oh, they weren't aware that the samples they passed on happened to be Lance Armstrong's. No, and they also weren't aware that the French tabloid could identify the samples through their serial #. But they seemed pretty delighted that the tabloid was able to "observe" artifacts of epo on the 6 year old samples (with questionable provenance) using analytical techniques without any established protocol. Great. I feel pretty bad for Floyd at this point. I'm afraid that there's little that he can do to clear his name. Chemistry is a dangerous thing in the hands of amateurs, and unfortunately most of the people in the world don't have enough critical knowledge of science to be able to tell when something may be amiss.


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## carbuncle (Dec 9, 2005)

Here's the Larry King transcript: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0607/28/lkl.01.html


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

LyNx said:


> Still think it's wrong to let everyone know about it till everything is complete and taint someones rep, 'cause no matter what happens there will always be the questionmark on his name.


Could not agree more LyNx.


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## TrekFan (Apr 21, 2005)

i think it's time we start taking a good hard look at saying the hell with the tour de france and start our own "tour of america" or something like that. enough already with these ridiculous french "media" outfits so quick to crucify US riders...


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## Maskedman (Jun 12, 2005)

While I REALLY hope Landis didn't use anything illegal, but...

If his natural testosterone levels/concentration is higher than normal, why didn't he let the tour-management know. He should know that UCI is going after anything that moves at the moment. This way his testosterone leves wouldn't be a surprise and thereby avoiding all these speculations?


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## xcguy (Apr 18, 2004)

*the doping circus*

Bottom line is that those dope-testing "clowns" (an apt description above) working in a back room with a microscope and an attitude have absolute power to not only (at the very least) completely destroy a superior athletes achievements (especially if he's American) temporarily till he clears his name (guilty until proven innocent) but can solemnly/laughingly just ban them from their livelihood. Immediately! I agree with those who say that the entire bloodtesting part of bike racing is flawed and there needs to ONLY be a system in place that is completely infallible. Too much is stake for the rider for this flawed testing process to continue as it now stands. Abnormal testosterone level??? Give me a frikkin' break. We're talking superior athletes here, putting their bodies through h!ll. No one can know for sure what that level of stress can do to things that are naturally occurring in a human. Free Landis!


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

xcguy said:


> Bottom line is that those doping "clowns" (an apt description above) have absolute power to not only (at the very least) completely destroy a superior athletes achievements (especially if he's American) temporarily till he clears his name (guilty until proven innocent) but can solemnly/laughingly just ban them from their livelihood. Immediately! I agree with those who say that the entire bloodtesting part of bike racing is flawed and there needs to ONLY be a system in place that is completely infallible. Too much is stake for the rider for this flawed testing process to continue as it now stands. Abnormal testosterone level??? Give me a freakin' break. Free Landis.


I believe the anit-doping system needs serious reform, however, I reacall Floyd saying that he has an abnormal testosterone level and he will prove that.


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## carnage (Nov 17, 2005)

*Freeee Floyyddd!!!!!*

I think that this whole thing stinks. I honestly dont see Landis walking away the victor here.
Some one in here said that they should check his blood from throughout the tour, yet what would that show? That he took a quick shot of testosterone the night before a very awsome stage win? As alot of people agree, Steriods work over a long period of time, so the other blood test would come back as showing a large level of testosterone anyways, should that be the case.

FLOYD WON IT GOOD, IF I CAN FIND AWAY AROUND THESE TESTS IN 2 MINUTES ID SAY THE TESTS DONT DO WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TOO!


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

I didn't really want to enter this but I still will. I was in top level sport long enough that I know at least few things  But let's start on the other side. Everyone are describing poor Americans who everyone want to blame. But take a look a bit in other sports... in athletics WADA and IOC don't have any special power to do anything against US athletes. They got cought, members of their team (if I'm right 4x400m relay in Sydney) got cought and still they have their medals. From my (pretty bad) memory I would say Hamilton is one of rare only US athlete who lost their medals after they got caught. So it's not really all so bad for Americans. And maybe just because of that others are picking so much on Americans too. And do you really think only European athletes are doped while Americans are all fair and clean? Come on you have to be at least a bit less naive then that.
Ok back to Landis. What would testosterone help in one day? Not much if something at all. But did anyone ever heard of masquarade drugs? In case if you didn't... they are used to mask real stuff which they take... and yes they do take it. Unfortunately this stuff is much more normal thing in top level sport then you would ever imagine. And what kinda effects those drugs have? I have no idea what Landis is/was taking, but it just might be high testosterone levels is one of side effects. And if Landis would have abnormal testosterone levels on regular basis he wouldn't need to prove anything. You get clearance from UCI and you can race with completely off levels. Same goes for too high hematocrite levels. But there's usually one little problem with such "abnormal levels". Everyone start talking "oh but I have this all the time" after they get caught. And they never had problems with this before? Think a bit  It's not all just conspiracy against Americans 
But on other side I agree... it's stupid all together. Second one is not any cleaner then first one so.. 
PS: And one more thing... Phonak had 13 riders found using doping... ok 12 since Landis is not official yet. 13 riders in less then 2 years?! And usually teams have about 26 riders on their payroll. Think a bit again


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## xcguy (Apr 18, 2004)

*primoz has a unique perspective*

Obvious primoz has been around this area of controversy so I'll acknowledge that he knows more than I do, as an insider. My big beef with all this drug testing is: it just bugs the SH!T out of me to think a guy in a lab coat can negate the herculean effort a bike rider puts out, like Landis in the Tour, with his observation that a blood test came out "wrong". Just like that all the celebration, joy, congratulations that Landis is getting stops and he's the bad guy. He may be able to scientifically prove his innocence but his 15 minutes of fame is shot--hey, you just won the lottery?? Great, because your dog just got hit by a truck! And not only that, but...you got a smile and tears at the same time. The sanctimonious drug testers "won" this one! Let's put this Landis dude in a world of controversy and see if he can get out of it. If he does, well, at least we ruined his celebration.

The immediate condemnation of a bike rider is ridiculous. I've read that Ulrich et al still have not been found "guilty", just that their names were on some Spanish doc's "list"--so of course they're guilty, at least as far as bike doping testers/press covering it/public gasping goes! The biking teams have to look like they're shocked, shocked that their team members are "doping" to be seen as "doing something about the problem" in the eyes of those Holier-Than-Thou, got-my- labcoat-and-the-power-to-ban-you technicians. Phonak has had other "dopers" in the past? Doesn't mean Landis got sucked into it.

If someone can prove to me that Landis is indeed "doping" (even though that term itself means different things to me--you know, if a guy is mainlining methamphetamines during a climb, hey, that's doping. He's taking drugs for his arthritic hip that skew his readings, well...) then I'm going to have to change my thinking over to... all these seemingly upright supreme athletes who accomplish the impossible and are victorious are all in fact "dopers" and are only worthy of my scorn.

But I don't see anything that's going to make me think that the drug-testing system ISN"T flawed and that innocent riders AREN'T being excoriated without both due cause and evidence. Some guy with a microscope and a mission hasn't convinced me yet. Will I ever be convinced?  Sure, Landis can just say, you know, you caught me...I'm a doper and I'm truly the bad guy. I just cannot believe he is that stupid.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Well it's not really "some guys in lab coat observation". In case of Landis it's real number which came out of tests. And most of time test results are not ready in day. And to be honest I don't care why he got this high levels. It might also be because of medicine for his hip. But it doesn't change anything. In top level sport things are clear. If you need specific medicine, you need to apply with appropriate federation (UCI in this case) beforehand. And if you have right diagnosis, you are allowed to use them... even if you testosterone (or any other) levels get sky high because of this. All excuses later on that "I have this medicine because of this and that, but I forgot to apply for it beforehand" are just stupid excuse... Even if excuse for to high testosterone level is suppose to be beer with whiskey... you should know better then that, if you are in this game.
Second... compared to Landis who actually failed doping test, well actually let's wait for another few hours for tests of b sample, Ullrich and Basso never failed doping tests. They were the ones who got thrown out based on some speculations. But since they are Euro dopers it's fine right? 
And third... I do think all this anti-doping stuff is joke. They don't do anything to really clean sport, but just pick on few guys, while rest of peloton rides forward same way as they did till now. If it would be up to me, I would cancel all controls and athletes can do whatever they want. They do this now already, but with no controls at least there wouldn't be such rediculous doping cases for one person, while everything is suppose to be fine with others, who actually have same doctor


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## SurfHenk (Dec 13, 2005)

*eye-opener*

This tread sure is an eye-opener for me :eekster: 
Everybody has the right for his own opinion of course. But the attitude of many in this tread is so extremely hostile to the rest of the world, and apparently especially the French, that I find it shocking. I hope this tread does not reflect the general American view on the rest of the world, as this would mean that we (Americans and non-Americans) can all start to really worry. If it would reflect the general American view, I would agree however to exempt all US citizens from the testosterone test  
By the way, nobody is serious I hope when complaining about unfriendly, maybe even hostile, reactions abroad when all he posts on the www (first 'w' stands for 'wolrd') is this type of constructive nonsense.
Now regarding the Landis case. I am no expert and will leave the technical talk to those that are. As an outsider, my impression is that the doping rules seam to be pretty clear regarding what are the levels considered as 'over the limit'. Sure these levels are not the bible, but apprently doping test have become a very complicated issue due to the many known and unknown substances to be found directly or indirectly. But those 'over the limit' levels are known to every rider that meets at the start, meaning he is accepting to compete under those rules. If he has a problem with any of these rules, he should discuss these with the authorities in charge prior to the race itself. If Landis can however explain and prove after this incident that his non-compliance to any of these rules is not caused by doping or cheating, I am sure he will keep his yellow yersey. But it will indeed forever have a bad aftertaste and I do agree that the news of a positive test should have been kept from the public untill after the 'B'-test. Bad communication, there is no excuse for it but I am sure Amercian spokesmen sometimes suffer from it too.
Of course we can broaden this discussion to the sence or non-sence of doping tests. My personal view is that if you allow doping, the best payed riders will be medically followed very carefully and will probably also win race after race after race as they gather enough money to continue paying the very latest medical products. While the lesser riders, well, I am afraid they will take whatever they can pay in as a high a dosis as they think they will survive, all of this without any major medical follow-up of course. The alternative is the situation of today, where the rules and tests become ever so more complex. I fully agree this is a far from ideal situation, but I prefer it to the other alternative. But as I said, that is just my opinion and I don not consider it to be the truth and nothing but the truth. I am European after all, trying to find my way in life with a lower level of testosterone 

Happy ridings!

Not that this matters but just for clarity, I am a Belgian citizen, Belgium is a country in the hart of Europe and is a neighbour of France (as well as Germany, the Netherlands and Luxemburgh).


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## cq20 (Jun 1, 2005)

I am also puzzled by the anti-French attitudes. Why on earth would the French frame anyone and potentially destroy their premier sporting event? This is bad news for the Tour and for France and it looks like the German TV companies will pull out of next year's event.

I don't know (and neither does anyone else here) whether Floyd is guilty or not (and I hope he is innocent) but I'm sure that the French can't be blamed for this anymore than they can be blamed for Justin Gatlin facing a lifetime ban by the United States Anti-doping Agency (USADA) after confirmation that his B sample tested positive for testosterone.


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## K'Endo (Dec 23, 2003)

TrekFan said:


> i think it's time we start taking a good hard look at saying the hell with the tour de france and start our own "tour of america" or something like that. enough already with these ridiculous french "media" outfits so quick to crucify US riders...


Yes, because as we all know, American media is unswervingly fair, balanced and dedicated to even-handed treatment in their reporting about people of all races, creeds and nationalities.

Kn.


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

K'Endo said:


> Yes, because as we all know, American media is unswervingly fair, balanced and dedicated to even-handed treatment in their reporting about people of all races, creeds and nationalities.
> 
> Kn.


Well yeah. Especially Fox News. They aren't biased at all.


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## ned13b (Apr 25, 2005)

Everyone here keeps talking about "excess testosterone" while infact the doping infraction is due to an abnormal *RATIO* of testosterone to epitestosterone. Most people have about equal amounts of these two hormones while Landis' testosterone levels were at least four time higher than his epitestosterone levels. A guy with super high testosterone would also have high levels of epitestosterone so the ratio would still be 1:1, so no worries. When someone artificially increases their testosterone the epitestosterone levels would not rise, thereby altering the ratio.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Ya, let's blame the French for everything!

What they really need to be blamed for is their organization of the event. They need to get serious about it before their beloved event is forever ruined.

I suggested several things on another forum but they essentially need to test the riders before the race, sequester riders, no team doctors, have open searches of rooms and team vehicles and riders belonging. Then they should all eat at the same mess hall. They also need to search and limit the number of visitors. Then they need to test after the final race stage, then have a rest day before the ride into Paris. On the rest day final testing will be done. Then on the final day before they ride into Paris all riders who flunk the test will be booted. Then after the ride into Paris they do the ceremony with all results being final. Then they destroy all riders samples and move onto the next year.


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

richwolf said:


> I suggested several things on another forum but they essentially need to test the riders before the race, sequester riders, no team doctors, have open searches of rooms and team vehicles and riders belonging. Then they should all eat at the same mess hall. They also need to search and limit the number of visitors. Then they need to test after the final race stage, then have a rest day before the ride into Paris. On the rest day final testing will be done. Then on the final day before they ride into Paris all riders who flunk the test will be booted. Then after the ride into Paris they do the ceremony with all results being final. Then they destroy all riders samples and move onto the next year.


I think I just read that thread.


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## cq20 (Jun 1, 2005)

richwolf said:


> Ya, let's blame the French for everything!
> 
> What they really need to be blamed for is their organization of the event. They need to get serious about it before their beloved event is forever ruined.


Ah, incompetence. Well that's a completely different and much more sustainable argument. I think that the TdF does need to get a grip of this and possibly leave the UCI out of it. Much in the TdF needs to be improved (without damaging the spectacle and tradition of the event) but that is different to stating that the French are out to get the Americans.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

mtbfool said:


> I think I just read that thread.


It's nice to know that I am not the only person out there wasting my time!


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## umbertom (May 28, 2006)

this sucks, I still can't believe landis doped 
i don't think the testosterone ratio should've been lowered from 6:1 to 4:1 though
it's really sad to see these guys persecuted through the public, they really should've waited for the the B test to say ANYTHING
i hope all goes well for him


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## Littlewolf (Jul 21, 2006)

DBomb said:


> Babe Ruth lost his title 30 years ago.
> 
> I never understood the fascination of beating a SECOND place record...


You don't think when he passes first place that they will give Bonds that record as well?


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## TJ. (Jan 12, 2004)

*Is taking performance-enhancing drugs cheating?*

Getting a head start is cheating. Cutting the course is cheating. Having a motor is cheating. Taking a drug to make you faster, that everyone else has access to, is not cheating. What does everyone else think. They are paid professional athletes. They are paid to perform. What is the moral question here? BFD if someone takes performance-enhancing drugs. An at your own risk event as far as I am concerned. :eekster:

TJ


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## K'Endo (Dec 23, 2003)

mtbfool said:


> Well yeah. Especially Fox News. They aren't biased at all.


"Fair and balanced". I know it's true because that's what they tell me!

Kn.


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## xcguy (Apr 18, 2004)

*this Tour thing*

I want all to know that I watched this year's Tour (and the last 8), every minute, amazed at the athletic prowess being displayed for all the world to see. OLN's coverage is incredible, the commentary knowledgable. I'm a Bob Rolle fan, as well.

But to think that the winner's achievements can be just 
destroyed/blown-up/humiliated/dismissed JUST LIKE THAT!!! because some lab test hints that a the winners' blood test says "I'm a doper and I'm a loser and please just dismiss my efforts and shoot me now, please" still just p!sses me off to no end. Why? Let me further explain what I think.

The Tour is an incredible display of athletic output. It HAS to be run such that when the winner crosses the line, triumphant, it means something! Not, it means something if some labcoat says it does. I'm still not calmed down with whatever lab (was it French?) tried to tie Lance into some doping thing from year's old samples. Anything at all could have happened in the ensuing years--switched vials, decayed samples, malevolent intent on the part of the doping-testing Gurus (heaven forbid).

I read today that Justin Gatlin (he of the world 100m record) has "failed" some testosterone-related drug test. What's Director Pound's immediate comment? "I think he should be banned for life." We're not talking murder here. Not rape, not wife beating, not terrorist activity--we're talking about some labcoat saying this or that!

This whole drug-testing system is the scandal, in my opinion. Someone above said, what the hey, let them drug and the best drugged-athlete win. Testosterone a drug? A buddy of mine takes supplements of testosterone so he feels just normal daily (I'm not there yet, thank God). It just amazes me that a spectacle such as the Tour (I love it!) can be held hostage to these frikkin' drug tests. The whole world's opinion of the Tour is immeasurably
calculated on the press' coverage of it, and all that the world knows now is Landis is a doper/loser/calculating schemer------BIG POINT HERE--whether he's innocent or not!

I still believe Landis accomplished what he did without "doping". Only when I read that he says, yeah, you caught me, I'm guilty...will I be convinced. Am I an apologist for the athlete in question? No, I just hate like hel! to see an innocent man condemned in such a manner. Guilty until proven innocent. What a suck proposition.


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

I really hope ol' Floyd comes out to be innocent, since this was such an awesome Tour. This article doesn't sound too promising......Ugh.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14059185/


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Ok once again... it's not "one lab guy's opinion". Lab tests are most accurate thing you can get. You get results in numbers not in desription like "little, a lot, small, big". And if I need to choose who to believe between someone saying "I didn't doped" or someone who analized his urine or blood and has results made by test machines, I really don't think there's much to discuss who is right. 
And second... for those of you who understand at least a bit German... try to read this: http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/23/0,1872,3962103,00.html
For those of you who don't understand German, you probably remember who Jesus Manzano is. He went out to public and even if he was using doping for years (his own words) he never tested positive. I guess this would make him clean rider right  And if you remember list of stuff he (and others) was taking you get at least a bit of idea what is going on in top level sport. But if you want to believe all this is European conspiracy against Americans, and all European riders are junkies while Americans are all clean and honest heroes then... well keep on living in your bubble.
PS: Based on latest news testosterone found by Landis was artifficial and not natural. Must be really bad beer and whiskey combination


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## Trond (Mar 7, 2004)

primoz said:


> And second... for those of you who understand at least a bit German... try to read this: http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/23/0,1872,3962103,00.html
> For those of you who don't understand German, you probably remember who Jesus Manzano is. He went out to public and even if he was using doping for years (his own words) he never tested positive. I guess this would make him clean rider right  And if you remember list of stuff he (and others) was taking you get at least a bit of idea what is going on in top level sport.


Great and interesting read! I ran it through http://babelfish.altavista.com for the translation

*"The Tour without Doping? Not possible!"*

Ex professional Jesus Manzano speaks
the general suspicion out

It begins completely harmlessly, the physician uses up in the first professional year or other memo moose, only little, in order to optimize the achievement. From year to year then the dosage increases, sometime gets one animal blood derivatives squirted. Jesus Manzano remembers its time as a professional with frights back. 2003 it turned the cycle racing the back, - from fear of death, as it says. In the "current sportstudio" he speaks about the usual Dopingmethoden in the professional cycle racing.

Manzano drove for the Spanish team Kelme. Its director of sport Vicente Belda explained to the driver at that time: "either you go through there, or you stand on the road." Manzano - and all andereren drivers in the team - decided to go through. Finally go it around much money, which one can make as a professional. "I said myself, for six, seven years I hold out."

*Today Testosteron, tomorrow EPO*
From the team physician the drivers got an individually co-ordinated medication plan. Today Testosteron, tomorrow growth hormones, in the next week EPO. Jesus Manzano took a whole list at means at the high point of its Medikamentierung, 2003. It enumerates: "Kortison, female hormones, growth hormones, Testosteron, EPO." Team Kelme spent, says approximately 350,000 euro alone on the medicines in the year Manzano.

Although everyone of the other one knew, the drivers spoke hardly with one another, which ran off there. One had hang-worked finally its life long to come into a pro route team. A Rauswurf would have meant not only the end of the career, but also harsh financial losses - where one earns otherwise probably several hundredthousand euro in the year. With this thoughts in the back of the head the drivers held the mouth. "the topic is among the drivers taboo, one talks about it", does not say Manzano.

*Luck pills*
Long years was considered the Doping with the body-own hormone EPO as "miracle drug". An increase in output of up to 80 per cent was possible thereby. The side effects, depressions and physical dependence, were gegenmedikamentiert simply, explain Manzano: "we got luck pills, antidepressives, also during the route or the Vuelta."

The side effects of these pills are devastating: The drivers have much less hunger, eat too few. And they become psychologically dependent on it. "you do not notice no more that you have a problem. You are addicted ", say Manzano. In order to feel constantly good, many drivers would fall back to other drugs such as cocaine. More than one paid this with its life.

*Fear of death* 
2003 were a turning point in the fight against Doping in the cycle racing, in addition, in the life of the Jesus Manzano. While the scientists celebrated the proof of EPO Doping, Manzano experienced with mountain-gropes the route de France its personal moment of the truth. With the stage from Morzine to Avoriaz the Spaniard with dog hemoglobin was doped, however probably something overdosed, because after the first rise went with the driver nothing at all more, he literally fell from the wheel.

"at that time I had fear of death", say Manzano. The team manager of Kelme did not permit the physicians in the hospital to remove blood. Manzano was thus never positively tested on Doping. But it had enough, its life was more important to it.

*Without Doping no Tour*
Manzano terminated its career and went to the public. Murder threats followed, yet the Spaniard still stands to his statements. One of it: "everyone that the route denies, is doped." Manzano lost each hope for a clean cycle racing. "without Doping today none can do more the route." Also Manzano cannot believe the innocence asseverations of the route winner Floyd Landis. "it had carried probable a too strongly proportioned Testosteronplaster, and the body planned more absorbed than. An error of Landis or its physician "for Manzano is clear that also Landis doped.


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## DanU (May 9, 2006)

Trond said:


> It begins completely harmlessly, the physician uses up in the first professional year or other memo moose


On my way to work today I actually had to scare away a moose that was standing by the side of the road, looking to cause a car pile up. Perhaps if it was a memo moose instead, I would have just ridden past it very, very fast?


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## xcguy (Apr 18, 2004)

*more observations from me*

I started thinking that maybe, since reading story after story of the pros saying they all dope, that maybe Landis took this synthetic testosterone to help him recover, never imagining that he'd win the next stage, he only wanted to not tank as bad. After all, only the top two finishers in a stage get a blood test, right? So the entire time he's on the podium he's thinking, well, enjoy this adulation while it lasts because I'm gonna get caught. Only he knows.

Which brings me to another observation I'd made previously. If everyone is doping and only a few get caught, what the heck good does it do to go so dammed public about the blood tests? Again, all the world sees is a large headline story about doping cyclists, they nod their heads in scorn declaring, ah, they're all a buncha dopers. As if, even with this supposed doping going on, that their athletic achievements are forgettable. Tour de France? Who cares, they're all a buncha dopers.

I almost think the image of professional cycling at the highest levels is not served well by the anti-dopers public campaign. I can just see the future: everytime anyone in sports comes up to bat/runs an end-around/launches themselves from the free throw line for a dunk/leads a stage of the Tour---the commentator dismisses their abilities with, well, there's a rumor that he's doping so you can just forget you even saw this. They all dope, so you can be sure this guy is, too. Etc etc etc.

It's like the sport of professional cycling is devouring itself in an endless campaign to accomplish the impossible.


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## SeanL (May 4, 2005)

I'm still unsure what to think as to whether Landis is innocent or not, but one thing is for sure, it is quite evident that the UCI is more interested in covering its ass than protecting the image of the sport.


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

*new twist*

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/01/sports/othersports/01landis.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin


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## dhtahoe (Mar 18, 2004)

I just think that it's funny that all this info. All the AP, velonews, and other stories are leaked from the french press, and not the UCI or WADA. Ahhhh the french.... They're there when they need us.


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

dhtahoe said:


> I just think that it's funny that all this info. All the AP, velonews, and other stories are leaked from the french press, and not the UCI or WADA. Ahhhh the french.... They're there when they need us.


Maybe you should read or re-read the article from the NYT that I posted.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

What is the actual rule say:

Its illegal to take artifical testostrone.
Or
It is illegal to fail the tests.

Proably oversimplified


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

*Europe outlaws testosterone!!*

This just came in over BBC.

"All european countries are considering outlawing testosterone." Apparently anyone caught using the illegal substance is to be immidiately DEBALLED!  This is in response to the ignorant Americans and how they act when roaming around European countries. France will apparently be the first to sign this act into law.

I think there are some in this forum who would like to move to Europe now. :thumbsup:

I think it is time to move on in this thread, I just read all 4 pages of it and this is the only response I could come up with. People cheat, get on with it! People who cheat get caught (sometimes), get on with it! Some Americans hate Americans, please move out of my country! 

I'm sure some of you think I am ignorant, call someone who cares. I love my country and I am not ashamed to say so even when someone from this country is caught doing something wrong.


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## cq20 (Jun 1, 2005)

*Landis B result set for Saturday*

According to the BBC "The result of Tour de France winner Floyd Landis' back-up doping test is set to be announced on Saturday, says the International Cycling Union (UCI). "

Elsewhere it points out that cycling isn't the only sport affected: "Michael Johnson, holder of the 200m and 400m world records despite retiring in 2000, says "doping is still a huge problem for athletics"" and "Hungary's top sprinter Gabor Dobos is the latest sportsman to test positive for raised levels of testosterone."


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

mtbfool said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/01/sports/othersports/01landis.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin


New twist already posted a few posts up.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=2109940#poststop


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## Fletch6 (Apr 1, 2006)

I feel that the testing results and the labs are questionable. I know of two times where blood tests I took gave faults positives for a me. I actually had two samples taken and sent to two different labs and got a positive and a negative from the same sample for what we asked to be tested. (lime tick) 
I see here in the US where we have been told finger prints are 100% and now we have had 
questions raised about this also. I realize the medical community is fallible and would not trust some uncertified laboratory or more so what I see printed in newspapers.


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## JSD303 (Jun 15, 2006)

I think that we've all learned an important lesson about doping... Make sure you take something that increases your epitestosterone as well!!


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## carnage (Nov 17, 2005)

I just had a dumb thought. I know its not pretty, but it might just be smack on.
When Floyd made his comeback, it was his first stage win. I watched him pass the lead group. And heard on OLN that he offered $5,000 and the stage win to who ever helped him. He must have know that the stage winner would get tested, so he wanted someone to win the stage and hopefully let him skate by the testing. I know, that sounds bad, but its probably as simple as it truely is.


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## Spartak (Mar 25, 2005)

But he pushed and pushed like crazy on that stage, especially when he was well (5 minutes) clear of any riders.

Doesn't make sense. Why not dope up with a designer drug, why use primitive testosterone, even though it would take weeks to take effect.


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## McCracken (Jan 13, 2004)

He should have been tested when he was in yellow. All stage winners, yellow jersey holders, and 2 other random riders are tested at the end of each stage. Theoretically, if he doped the night before with a fast acting synthetic and had a helping rider, he could have not won the stage and stayed out of yellow until the time trial and allowed time for the synthetic to dissipate. My question is why the stage 17 sample has not been compared to his previous sample from when he was in yellow. If I were Landis and I were innocent, I would ask them to compare the two.

McCracken


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

McCracken said:


> If I were Landis and I were innocent, I would ask them to compare the two.


Ahhh. That itself is pretty indictitive if you ask me. Also, he didn't ask for the Carbon isotope whatever test on his A sample. I guess we know why now. I was one of the "let's wait and see," and "I hope he didn't do it," people, but Floyd's actions look more like that of a guilty man than an innocent man. I hope that isn't true.


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## Fat Elvis (Jan 14, 2004)

mtbfool said:


> Ahhh. That itself is pretty indictitive if you ask me. Also, he didn't ask for the Carbon isotope whatever test on his A sample. I guess we know why now. I was one of the "let's wait and see," and "I hope he didn't do it," people, but Floyd's actions look more like that of a guilty man than an innocent man. I hope that isn't true.


Yeah, the isotope analysis looks pretty bad for Floyd. You can explain away the T/E analysis a lot of different ways, but the isotope analysis is pretty rigorous. I'm afraid that his goose is cooked now.


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## fireboy (Jan 12, 2004)

cq20 said:


> Why on earth would the French frame anyone and potentially destroy their premier sporting event?


You're joking....right???:skep:


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## fireboy (Jan 12, 2004)

primoz said:


> Lab tests are most accurate thing you can get.


WHAT??? No...totally disagree. This lab has already been accused of shady deals...period. And they keep leaking just a little bit of news each time it looks like the whole thing's falling apart. "His testosterone ratio is off." Landis and Professional Chemists answer, "His testosterone levels and his approved meds may be able to account for that." Then this _lab_ says, "oh yeah, well some of it was synthetic!!" Landis and the Pro's say, "Then why wasn't it detected during previous stages, or during the tests once he won the whole race??" The lab still can't answer the question of why Landis would use a testosterone or epitestosterone product ONE DAY before a tough stage...neither product works THAT WAY...you don't get immediate results from a testosterone derivative. Athletes have to be on testosterone or epitest. for months to get results...Like McGuire or Bonds...and testosterone is usually for power sports, not endurance sports. This whole thing just stinks of conspiracy to me...and it doesn't matter if it was Floyd or Botero or Tyler or LeMonde or whoever...it just doesn't jive.

The UCI and the French media have a tendency...especially at the Tour de France of shooting first...then interrogating the corpse. If they can't pin down the exact drug that was in his system that caused the unbalanced ratio and have no absolute and unarguable proof of doping, he's innocent, just like OJ...


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

fireboy said:


> WHAT??? No...totally disagree. This lab has already been accused of shady deals...period. And they keep leaking just a little bit of news each time it looks like the whole thing's falling apart. "His testosterone ratio is off." Landis and Professional Chemists answer, "His testosterone levels and his approved meds may be able to account for that." Then this _lab_ says, "oh yeah, well some of it was synthetic!!" Landis and the Pro's say, "Then why wasn't it detected during previous stages, or during the tests once he won the whole race??" The lab still can't answer the question of why Landis would use a testosterone or epitestosterone product ONE DAY before a tough stage...neither product works THAT WAY...you don't get immediate results from a testosterone derivative. Athletes have to be on testosterone or epitest. for months to get results...Like McGuire or Bonds...and testosterone is usually for power sports, not endurance sports. This whole thing just stinks of conspiracy to me...and it doesn't matter if it was Floyd or Botero or Tyler or LeMonde or whoever...it just doesn't jive.
> 
> The UCI and the French media have a tendency...especially at the Tour de France of shooting first...then interrogating the corpse. If they can't pin down the exact drug that was in his system that caused the unbalanced ratio and have no absolute and unarguable proof of doping, he's innocent, just like OJ...


Just to play devil's advocate.

It's not the labs responsibility to answer the question of why athletes sometimes make stupid decisions. Why did Tom Simpson take enough crap to kill himself?

Also, the carbon isotope test isn't run on all samples, so the other samples from previous days probably haven't been tested yet. If Floyd really isn't guilty, he'll ask for that.

Yes, I believe the credibility of this particular lab is definitely in question. I also think Floyd's credibility is in question. His actions are not that of an innoncent man. I mentioned this in a previous post: why didn't Floyd ask for the carbon isotope test?


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## fireboy (Jan 12, 2004)

mtbfool said:


> why didn't Floyd ask for the carbon isotope test?


Good question. My biggest beef is that the TdF and the UCI shouldn't have said a fuggin' word until ALL of the evidence and testing was in order. I guess that's my American "innocent until proven guilty" showing through. Don't start throwing accusations until you have concrete PROOF you can hang the guy. If you don't have irrefutable proof, then shut up til you do.


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

fireboy said:


> Good question. My biggest beef is that the TdF and the UCI shouldn't have said a fuggin' word until ALL of the evidence and testing was in order. I guess that's my American "innocent until proven guilty" showing through. Don't start throwing accusations until you have concrete PROOF you can hang the guy. If you don't have irrefutable proof, then shut up til you do.


agreed. Unfortunately, I bet the lab would have leaked the info to ol' L'Equipe. That is why the UCI said they released the info.


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## fireboy (Jan 12, 2004)

L'equipe....another reason this whole thing seems "hinky". If he did it, I'll be disappointed, I'm not a daft Landis fan. I just don't get how he got through all the other tests from all the other classics he won this year and then fails ONE test after ONE stage...like I said before...it just doesn't jive. I need more proof.


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## K'Endo (Dec 23, 2003)

fireboy said:


> Good question. My biggest beef is that the TdF and the UCI shouldn't have said a fuggin' word until ALL of the evidence and testing was in order. I guess that's my American "innocent until proven guilty" showing through. Don't start throwing accusations until you have concrete PROOF you can hang the guy. If you don't have irrefutable proof, then shut up til you do.


Pay attention ...

The TdF/UCI did NOT "hang the guy". They did not release any athlete's name at any time, and still haven't. They did say that an athlete whose name will be withheld has tested positive.

Phonak released the Landis' name. Landis was asked by his team not to race until the investigation is completed. This is consistent with ALL OTHER RACERS FROM ALL NATIONS who have been under investigation after showing a positive in a test. Ullrich, Basso and all the others who didn't even start the TdF got the same treatment from their own teams.

If you open your eyes wide enough to see that the treatment Landis has received is nothing unique then you can finally realize that this is NOT an America vs. France, or America vs. the rest of the world, or America vs. your imagination situation.

Kn.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Ok Fireboy since you obviously don't really know much about how stuff is going when it comes to this. Labs doesn't need to prove what stuff someone took. If they find traces of ANY substance which is on doping list, you failed doping test and you are positive which means disqualification. They don't need to prove which exact medicine did you take and they even less need to answer WHY you took it.

2. as I wrote before I was in this stuff way too long not to know at least basics. If any levels of any blood, urine or any other body fluid component are higher then normal, they are not higher for one day and every other day they are 50% under limits. Limits are not set 1% higher then average but whole lot higher. And even then, you are clear if you prove BEFOREHAND that your levels are different (higher) then average or even limit levels. With Landis it was once and never before. This is first thing which is not normal.

3. Labs which are doing doping tests are not some village hospital lab, but approved from OC, and therefore by UCI too. There's only few labs on world who are approved and have licence for doing doping tests. So believe me, those guys are not some failed scientists who weren't able to find normal job, so they went to some lab behind God's back to work for beer and piece of bread.

4. even if this would be extreme chance and Landis would have naturally high levels on that particular day (afterall everything is possible), then all testosterone would still be natural and not artificial. 

5. lab can make any approved test and riders don't need to agree on that. Lab, UCI and OC don't need riders approval to test his sample for let's say EPO. They can test them for whatever they want. But procedure needs to be approved by, lately I think WADA, before it was OC. And based on quite few cases with testosterone in last few week, they probably have some new tests, for which athletes and their doctors didn't know.

6. I still suggest you to read that link I posted before with Manzano's interview. If you don't believe me, I think you should believe him, who was actually in pro cycling (I was luckly "just" in xc skiing and not cycling) and who knows exactly what's happening there. He also has pretty resonable theory why Landis failed this test.  It might also answer why this wasn't detected in his previous tests. And if nothing else... go to Google and find list of stuff they were taking, and Manzano put out few years back. It's scary reading even for someone who actually has some ideas what's happening. Once reading those things you will notice you are way way too naive.


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

primoz said:


> (I was luckly "just" in xc skiing and not cycling)


I like your "just." Wasn't it skiers that alerted the world to use of epo by endurance athletes? because they were shooting such stupid amounts of the stuff that there blood thickened so much their hearts couldn't push it while they were asleep?


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## cq20 (Jun 1, 2005)

Why on earth would the French frame anyone and potentially destroy their premier sporting event?



fireboy said:


> You're joking....right???:skep:


Read the rest of the post... because all of this has damaged the Tour, its finances and France itself.

I supose you think the French set up Justin Gatlin as well. Get real.


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## PAmtbiker (Feb 2, 2005)

*It's unfortunate...*

That road racing has come down to this. The cartoon about describes it.

As a little aside, I'de like to see the test results verified by _non_-French and _non_-American labs. That would add a bit of cred to it. I still don't want to believe it though...


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Nope they were actually cyclists, but if I remember right, FIS (Ski federation) was the first one to make blood tests and not just urine tests and I think it was first one to put few days suspension if your hematocrite levels are too high... due to healty reason  Otherwise I don't know anyone from xc skiing who would be sleeping with HRM, while it's pretty common thing with cyclists. And reason for this is exactly this what you said. But this doesn't mean xc skiing is clean  As I said there's no top level sport which would be clean. Most of blood doping and it's development actually did came from xc skiing.


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## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

primoz said:


> Nope they were actually cyclists, but if I remember right, FIS (Ski federation) was the first one to make blood tests and not just urine tests and I think it was first one to put few days suspension if your hematocrite levels are too high... due to healty reason  Otherwise I don't know anyone from xc skiing who would be sleeping with HRM, while it's pretty common thing with cyclists. And reason for this is exactly this what you said. But this doesn't mean xc skiing is clean  As I said there's no top level sport which would be clean. Most of blood doping and it's development actually did came from xc skiing.


Now that I think of it, wasn't it the French that introduced it to Americans so they would die in their sleep? I think I smell a conspiracy.:ihih: :smilewinkgrin:


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## bigbore (May 11, 2006)

im not sure if this was said before i only skimmed through this thread but it really seems like contamination to me considering the tests for the other stages, and the stages after proved to be normal. Seems like one sample was contaminated to me.

Also when landis was on larry king they had a doctor who explained why having an elevated testostorone level would have actually been detrimental to performance rather then an increase.

Plus its kinda common sense, testostorone is associated with bursts of power not endurance.


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## Quasi (Jul 4, 2004)

K'Endo said:


> Pay attention ...
> 
> The TdF/UCI did NOT "hang the guy". They did not release any athlete's name at any time, and still haven't. They did say that an athlete whose name will be withheld has tested positive.
> 
> Phonak released the Landis' name.


Pay attention...

Is Phonak employing psychics to find out what the drug tests of its riders are? Of course the UCI "released" the information, maybe not to the public. However they are not stupid, they knew that when they informed Phonak they effectively released the info. Phonak apparently has policies which require it to suspend riders who have had any positive tests. So it really doesn't matter that the lab or the UCI didn't "publicly" release the information, they effected a public release of the info by informing Phonak. I don't know whether this is UCI's policy, or something they did because they thought the information would leak anyway. It doesn't really matter, it is clear that there is no right to privacy of a positive test result in the TDF.

It is too bad the sport has somewhat of a "guilty before proven innocent" attitude. If subsequent tests show that the first test was a false positive, nobody is going to refund Landis money lost from events he couldn't participate in because of the Phonak policy. But that is the nature of the sport. I would guess that Landis signed some agreement to abide by UCI drug test results whether they were correct or not, and another agreement with Phonak to abide by Phonak decisions on his participation in events, whether they are correct or not.

While Landis may have no legal rights because this is the nature of the sport, that doesn't mean the drug tests were valid, or that the decisions of his team and the UCI were fair.


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## K'Endo (Dec 23, 2003)

Quasi said:


> I don't know whether this is UCI's policy, or something they did because they thought the information would leak anyway. It doesn't really matter, it is clear that there is no right to privacy of a positive test result in the TDF.


Well, duh ... of course it's UCI policy to let an athlete and his team know that he's tested positive for a banned substance and the athlete is under investigation. Can you suggest something better? Shouldn't an athlete be informed of any evidence against him as soon as it's available?



Quasi said:


> It is too bad the sport has somewhat of a "guilty before proven innocent" attitude.


What "guilty before proven innocent attitude"? Landis is under investigation. No cycling or doping regulating body has declared Landis guilty. Please cite references to any such claim. When under investigation, the athlete does not race. That's the agreement, that's life.

Let's dwell on this topic for a minute. Let's say that a teacher at, oh ... your daughter's school is accused of abusing children. Should the teacher continue to teach and work with children while the accusation is under investigation? Most jurisdictions would suspend the teacher until the accusations are proven to be either true or false. Would you stand up and say "this teacher is being treated as guilty before proven innocent, let (him/her) continue to hang out with our kids". Would you? Which side of the guilt/innocence fence would you fall on under those circumstances?



Quasi said:


> While Landis may have no legal rights because this is the nature of the sport, that doesn't mean the drug tests were valid, or that the decisions of his team and the UCI were fair.


The drug tests were valid, conspiracy theorists really need to spend less time thinking up new conspiracies and more time looking at reality. The decisions of his team (which did not involve any prompting from UCI) were fair in light of the way all other racers are treated by their teams when their athletes are under investigation. Yet again, you seem to forget that several very qualified riders did not start the Tour. Where were you when Ullrich didn't start? Were you yelling about his unfair "guilty before proven innocent" treatment when he was simply under investigation as a result of Operation Puerto?

Kn.


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## AZClydesdale (Jan 12, 2004)

Latest news is his testosterone-epitestosterone ratio is 11:1. Floyd’s lawyer is setting the stage to plead dehydration. 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/08/03/bc.cyc.landis.doping.ap/index.html

I don’t buy into a France or Lab conspiracy but I am sickened by a ‘drive to win at all cost’ and cheating which seems to be permeating sports and business (i.e. - Enron, Tyco, Arthur Anderson). Then we get to hear their pleas of innocence for the next 5 years. Tyler’s interview on OLN during TdF was awful. At least David Millar came out and admitted to it. It is long past time to kick out the Kenneth Lays and Jeffery Skillings in both business and sport.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

It's not just testosterone. Testosterone is thing which they found. And noone knows exactly what else is in there. Testosterone is not the only thing but it's part of program. And as part of program it has completely different effect as if you would take only testosterone itself... as any other drug or medicine.
Otherwise I really do suggest everyone sticking to "but testosterone won't help much" to find Manzano's list of stuff they were getting. You will get idea it's not just testosterone which by itself won't do anything good.
But anyway... if sample was contaminated, b sample will be definitely clean. So let's wait for saturday when they will announce b sample is clear, and you can all blame us Europeans, and especially French (good I'm not French  ) for trying to undermine Americans


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## Quasi (Jul 4, 2004)

K'Endo said:


> Well, duh ... of course it's UCI policy to let an athlete and his team know that he's tested positive for a banned substance and the athlete is under investigation. Can you suggest something better? Shouldn't an athlete be informed of any evidence against him as soon as it's available?
> 
> What "guilty before proven innocent attitude"? Landis is under investigation. No cycling or doping regulating body has declared Landis guilty. Please cite references to any such claim. When under investigation, the athlete does not race. That's the agreement, that's life.


References? What kind of references are you talking about? It is clear that once a rider is suspected of doping he or she can't race until all the results are in. This may well be a time when the rider is at his or her peak, so you really can't just say "oh it is just for a little while, the rider won't be hurt." You are taking away the rider's livelihood for a while without adequate proof that the rider was cheating. Of course this applies to Ullrich and the other riders who couldn't participate in the TDF. Like I said, it appears to be the way things are done so that is what it is. Unfairness is built into the system, just like people get hurt in the sport they get treated unfairly. I am just saying that things could be done better. I am not saying that anyone is stating that Landis was cheating, only treating him like he was cheating.



K'Endo said:


> Let's dwell on this topic for a minute. Let's say that a teacher at, oh ... your daughter's school is accused of abusing children. Should the teacher continue to teach and work with children while the accusation is under investigation? Most jurisdictions would suspend the teacher until the accusations are proven to be either true or false. Would you stand up and say "this teacher is being treated as guilty before proven innocent, let (him/her) continue to hang out with our kids". Would you? Which side of the guilt/innocence fence would you fall on under those circumstances?


It is always a balance isn't it? This is not child molestation, this is a sport. If the rider is later proven to be doping, his victories can be taken away and the money returned to the next placing riders. You can't say the same thing for the victims of child molestation, so the analogy is very poor. It is always a balance between harm to the accused and potential harm to society. Allowing a rider to race when all his or her victories can be removed in a few weeks would not hurt anybody.



K'Endo said:


> The drug tests were valid, conspiracy theorists really need to spend less time thinking up new conspiracies and more time looking at reality.


The drug tests were valid? Do you have personal first hand experience following the chain of evidence all the way through to swear that there was no mixup or intentional or accidental contamination? You know it to be a fact that the drug tests were valid from personally observing the whole process of testing Landis' sample? Maybe you should report your personal observations to some newspaper or the UCI itself to help clear things up and stop wasting time and money testing that B sample.



K'Endo said:


> The decisions of his team (which did not involve any prompting from UCI) were fair in light of the way all other racers are treated by their teams when their athletes are under investigation. Yet again, you seem to forget that several very qualified riders did not start the Tour. Where were you when Ullrich didn't start? Were you yelling about his unfair "guilty before proven innocent" treatment when he was simply under investigation as a result of Operation Puerto?
> 
> Kn.


I am no way condoning what was done to the riders who were not allowed to race. You are just rasing more evidence of the "guilty until proven innocent" attitude of the UCI.


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## DanU (May 9, 2006)

Quasi said:


> Allowing a rider to race when all his or her victories can be removed in a few weeks would not hurt anybody.


Yeah, because getting your deserved gold medal in the mail instead of on the podium never hurt anyone...


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## fireboy (Jan 12, 2004)

cq20 said:


> I supose you think the French set up Justin Gatlin as well. Get real.


Quit "supposing"...I posted three little words (four if you count the conjunction)...No need to attempt to "suppose" what I think from that.

I admit that I am learning as we go on the whole "doping" thing and you guys and gals are providing a great amount to help understand, and I enjoy the sarcasm and jabs too  .


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## cq20 (Jun 1, 2005)

fireboy said:


> Quit "supposing"...I posted three little words (four if you count the conjunction)...No need to attempt to "suppose" what I think from that.
> 
> I admit that I am learning as we go on the whole "doping" thing and you guys and gals are providing a great amount to help understand, and I enjoy the sarcasm and jabs too  .


Well, I suppose that's OK Only a day to go before the B sample tests are announced. I just hope that for the sake of cycling, Floyd, the TdF (and France ) etc, they turn out to be negative


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

primoz do you know if it is illegal to take the drugs, or is it illegal to fail the test?

This is similar to driving over 0.08,or driving while incapacitated.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Seriously...*

The primary problem is that cycling is dirty. The problem is that there is the attitude that its okay to cheat as long as you don't cheat 'too much' or get caught. If Landis needs to go down (legitimately, or course) to get the message through to the athletes to knock it the F*** off, the so be it.

Landis failing the drug test makes me sad, but it isn't UCI that makes me sad, its the athletes and team managers/owners/doctors. If I were a sponsor, I would seriously think about firing them as well.

Now it if comes out that the testing methods are bad, then UCI is on the hook for making that right, but I think that (and I'm no expert) has to be addressed.

Like DC said, it went from one of the best TDFs in years to one of the worst.


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## cq20 (Jun 1, 2005)

*The B sample results*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/5233476.stm


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Officialy it's not allowed to take drugs which are on doping list. Not even a bit of them in most cases  In real life it's not allowed to fail test, so you are fine taking anything you want as long as you don't fail test 
And it's different then with driving. You can legally drink, just that you stay under limit... it's different question if this is smart or not, but common sense have little to do with law 
In doping normaly any trace of some drug is enough to fail test (of course you can take anything you want, if you have permission to take that stuff because of your dissease... that's reason why 90% of top athletes have astma and stuff like this  ), but there's few things which can be in sample up to specific limit. But basically... it's not allowed (of if you preffer it's illegal) to use drugs on list. Failing doping test is just prove it you actually did this.


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

cq20 said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/5233476.stm


Well, naturally landis is going to fight this one out, and attempt to prove he is "not guilty."

Could be a while before we hear the end of this


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## cq20 (Jun 1, 2005)

rkj__ said:


> Well, naturally landis is going to fight this one out, and attempt to prove he is "not guilty."
> 
> Could be a while before we hear the end of this


I just hope it isn't.

The longer this goes on, the worse it will be for the sport. 
----- edited for spelling! -


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

cq20 said:


> I just hope it isn't.
> 
> The longer this does on, the worse it will be for the sport.


What would it take to make things better for the sport? Currently, it has a very sketchy rep.


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## cq20 (Jun 1, 2005)

rkj__ said:


> What would it take to make things better for the sport? Currently, it has a very sketchy rep.


Don't know but with the B sample containing exogenous synthetic testosterone, I think it's over for Floyd. I'm tempted to say that athletes in all sports are doping (look at how many lost their form after the THG episode) and question why cycling always seems to get worse publicity than the others but that is just making excuses. Whatever... the cycling authorities need to impose a strict and independently audited drug testing regime and the cycling community should support them without resorting to rabid nationalism and conspiracy theories whenever they don't like the outcome.


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