# Gluing carbon. What glue do you prefer?



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Who has experience with these glues? What do you like and not like?

*3M Adhesive DP-460*
http://www.3m.com/intl/kr/img/adh/adhesives/dpseries/DP460.pdf

*Loctite® Hysol Adhesive E-120hp Ultra Strength Epoxy *
http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/HYSAE-120HP-EN.PDF


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## Cracked Headtube (Apr 16, 2006)

I'm glad you asked, I figured I'd get flamed if I did so, as I have been wondering this too.


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

I used 3M DP-420 to attach the seatstays on this frame. I think it's the same "family" as DP-460 with different cure times. Real easy to use if you invest $50 in 3M's application/mixing dispenser. I put about 1k miles on this frame before replacing it and the seatstays never gave trouble.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

There are quite a few different types of Epoxy / Resin mixes out there. On frames I prefer one that is thick liquid yet thin enough it will flow and fill cracks. Must be structural and provide good wetting characteristics. This is especially important if you are looking at reinforcing the area with additional cloth either glass or carbon.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/epoxy.html


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I should have mentioned that this is for bonding carbon into steel.


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Pete,

Both are excellent products for joining dissimilar materials at room temps.

I've used the Hysol (back when it was owned by Henkle) for Ti/Ti and Ti/Alum bonding with great success. The product flows well and is bombproof, but is kinda a pain to mix by weight. Grove used it for the Japanese Olympic racing wheel chairs and Trek for bonding their frames, both in the 90's

The 3M product is a little easier to mix and work with and is what I'm currently using for a Ti/Carbon project.

Can't go wrong with either.

See ya in Austin, yes?

rody


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## FoCo29er (Dec 5, 2010)

dont flame this but i have used loctite water proof epoxy from home depot. It has held for over 1k and i try to put as much abuse on the stays as i can when riding. its amazing that the wheel is still true. The seatstay tube is moderatly tapered to fit where the carbon broke initially. there is about .75" overlap. this is steel and carbon.


From Drop Box


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

I've had great longterm durable bonds with poly-epoxy(from aircraft spruce) no experience with bonding carbon to steel, the specs seem superior. I always figured if it's the best stuff for airplanes it's good enough for skateboards ,bikes, ect


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Rody said:


> See ya in Austin, yes?


Austin. Yes. Are you gonna be high rollin' with the whole crew again. I'll be there a day or two early to just enjoy Austin. I've never been.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

West Systems seems to come up a lot in this sort of discussion. I have no experience.


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

Rody said:


> I've used the Hysol (back when it was owned by Henkle)


Not that it matters, but it still is. Loctite is a Henkel brand.


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## leov (Jul 11, 2010)

Both are good, the top is Plexus.
(I was professional raceboat builder hence my experience)


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Which Plexus?

http://www.itwplexus.com/products/selector_popup.cfm?structural=1


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

I think your info before was helpful for what you are doing...... I use DP460 for bonding (already cured) carbon structures to metal or to each other, and I use a West Systems 105A resin and 206A hardener for creating laminates or composites using fabrics or tow.


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## m85476585 (Jun 7, 2007)

I have no experience with carbon frames, but I have worked with composite high power rockets, which can be either carbon or fiberglass and have similar construction to carbon bikes. For cloth layups, US Composites is a great alternative to West Systems, but much cheaper. Make sure to get the thin (635) resin, not thick (150). Layups need thin resin, and I also found that their thick resin is crap. You can make a thin layup resin into an adhesive by adding fillers (chopped fiberglass, Kevlar, fumed silica/cabosil, etc), or you can get an already thickened adhesive. The smallest size of US Composites thin epoxy with medium hardener (part number EPOX-635311 is what I would recommend) is $15, and with fumed silica filler it actually makes quite a good adhesive. Be sure to measure accurately (I use a small scale with 0.1g resolution) and mix very well. Using US Composites resin, fiberglass cloth, an old cardboard tube, and some purchased parts (fins and a nose cone), I built a rocket that has flown to 8500 feet and reached a top speed of mach 1.5.









I have had great results with Aeropoxy adhesives but they are expensive especially if you only need a little. I use ES6279, which is a great all-purpose adhesive. If you are bonding to metal, try ES6228. Both of these run about $60 for two quarts and can be found at the Aeropoxy store. They are both brown or gray opaque pastes, so not great cosmetically, but you can remove the extra while it's still wet. 
https://store.ptm-w.com/c-2-aeropoxy.aspx

For any composite-composite joints it is usually a good idea to add some cloth on top of the joint to reinforce it, if possible. On a bike this would be difficult to do if you want it to look good as you would need to remove the finish under where you are going to add cloth, glue it, then fill and finish it again to get it smooth. Getting a clear glossy finish that shows the raw carbon is especially difficult to do well. US Composites also sells carbon tape, but if you want the "twill" look you need to buy full width cloth.

I'd like to see someone make a fiberglass composite bike instead of carbon. It might not be any lighter than metal, but it would be unique at least.


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

the only time I've done carbon into steel I used the DP-420, it's held up fine although it hasn't seen a ton of use. I have a friend that used a Hysol product to bond carbon drive shafts into steel sockets for a formula SAE car and he told me the carbon tube failed before the joint did in torsion anyway. Not sure what specific grade of Hysol they used but it gives you an idea of how strong joint strength can be.


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

The dp420 is a good adhesive permabond ESP series adhesives pretty much do a good job...also check your method....glue is useless glue if it can't stick to the substrate....I did lots of work bonding steel and you will find out the best adhesives I have used are from Sp systems


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## findhan (Jun 8, 2010)

Ive used the DP410 and DP460 and both are great adhesives and Ive now purchased some DP490 for another project. I have no experience with the other adhesive, but you cant really go wrong with the DP range IMO. I used them for some really stubby dropouts on my hardtail and I have given it hells abuse with no problems (yet)
http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/5125826/

You want the aplicator gun - well worth its money. this is the gun from a UK supplier where I bought mine, Im sure you can source one nearer.
http://www.vikingtapes.co.uk/3M_Pro...esives/3M_EPX_Kits/3m_scotch_weld_epx_kit.htm

To be honest, I would go for the faster setting DP410 - still loads of working time with it, slightly stronger too if i remember


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## flynfrog (Feb 4, 2011)

I have had good luck with 3m 8115 its used to replace spot welding on autobody repair.

You might also try Hysol EA 9394 or 9395.

Bond prep is critical no matter what epoxy you choose.


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## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

I´m using Loctite Hysol 9466 with the mixing nozzles in a gun, very practical and quick to get started and finish jobs.
I´m doing steerer tubes in carbon with aluminum rings, very delicate pieces for leftys.


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## kbfore (May 13, 2012)

The aluminum dropout on my carbon frame came loose yesterday. It won't come off but it has come out from the frame by about 2cm. Do you think loctite will hold it? I also see people say use JB Weld. I don't want to have to order the 3M epoxy. What is your opinion? 

Did you replace the carbon with steel? What part of your frame is steel? Is it still working? 

Thanks.


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## kbfore (May 13, 2012)

*???*

The aluminum dropout on my carbon frame came loose yesterday. It won't come off but it has come out from the frame by about 2cm. Do you think loctite will hold it? I also see people say use JB Weld. I don't want to have to order the 3M epoxy. What is your opinion?

Did you replace the carbon with steel? What part of your frame is steel? Is it still working?

Thanks.


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## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

Loctite Hysol 9466 hands down.


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## kbfore (May 13, 2012)

*carbon*



FoCo29er said:


> dont flame this but i have used loctite water proof epoxy from home depot. It has held for over 1k and i try to put as much abuse on the stays as i can when riding. its amazing that the wheel is still true. The seatstay tube is moderatly tapered to fit where the carbon broke initially. there is about .75" overlap. this is steel and carbon.
> 
> 
> FoCo29er said:
> ...


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## kbfore (May 13, 2012)

*still working?*



FoCo29er said:


> dont flame this but i have used loctite water proof epoxy from home depot. It has held for over 1k and i try to put as much abuse on the stays as i can when riding. its amazing that the wheel is still true. The seatstay tube is moderatly tapered to fit where the carbon broke initially. there is about .75" overlap. this is steel and carbon.
> 
> 
> From Drop Box


Is the frame still together? 
[QUOTE=FoCo29er;7673162


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## FoCo29er (Dec 5, 2010)

The frame is still together and holding fine. When I repaired the frame I also cut out part of the chain stay and similarly sleeved it with a tapered tube (brazed in) so I could take out part of the damage and put a new dropout on it at the same time. I have since gotten a new road bike but the lemond is still holding together fine hanging on my wall.


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## kbfore (May 13, 2012)

I am just gluing the rear non-drive dropout back in. It has come out on the botton by about 2mm. Do you think the waterproof loctite will hold ok? Did you sand it or anything before you applied?


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## kbfore (May 13, 2012)

The Loctite connecting the dropout and frame came loose this morning. I just ordered 3m 420. Any tips from anyone on applying?


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

At work, one of our jobs is cutting and gluing arrow inserts. We usually use Easton HIT epoxy for gluing aluminum inserts to carbon arrows. They offer it in a 2 part epoxy or a super-glue like tube. It seems to work well. Maybe that is an option. I know we have re-attached small things like chainstay protectors and emblems on frames but never used it for anything substantial. Maybe it is something worth looking into?


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## Citizen Kane (Aug 12, 2007)

After many years inspecting bonded joints I would suggest that the choice of adhesive is probably far less important than the surface prep used. Most failures I have seen are nearly always adhesive rather than cohesive failures. You may want to consider a glass scrim between the CFC and steel. Appropriate surface prep according to the manufactures spec and strict adherance to the cure cycle. There is no such thing as a non destructive bond strength meter, it will fail eventually all you can do is delay that point.


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## kbfore (May 13, 2012)

*How to prepare?*

As you can see it is just a small space in which to put the epoxy. I have tried to get the dropout all the way out of the frame, but it will not budge and I am afraid to really twist it out. How do I prepare something this small?


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