# Ideas on the best way to ask riders not to climb DH biased trail.



## Stratocaster (Sep 30, 2004)

Some old legacy trails have been reworked to maximize the DH and we are looking for practical ideas on how to effectively ask riders not to climb.

Plenty of proper climbing trails nearby but there is always a strava segment going up things no matter how ridiculous.

The reason is the closing speed is too great, the sight lines are "ok" if riders are using them.

*Since we cannot designate the trail as "one way" with the land manager*, or even guarantee compliance if it were, we are asking for your effective creativity and feedback.

Turn style would work.... though it's not practical.
best thought to date is very short worded signage that says...... ?


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)




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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jeremy3220 said:


>


If it doesn't say that, then you got nothing.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Stratocaster said:


> *Since we cannot designate the trail as "one way" with the land manager*


I think you have your answer right there. Without support from the management you wont be able to implement signage or enforcement.

No matter what you or your buddies think, and trust me i know your pain, if it is a Multi-use and Multi-direction trail you have to treat it that way. Please be a good trail steward and don't bomb the trail as if it is Directional.

If you absolutely must get your GNAR on and strava bro the trail, at the very least post other riders at the intersections of the trail to warn other users of incoming fast traffic.

Please don't hurt anyone who is using the trail legally and climbing up what you consider a downhill only trail.


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## Stratocaster (Sep 30, 2004)

Yes, we try to steward. That's why a "climbing maximized" trail is next to it.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Stratocaster said:


> Yes, we try to steward. That's why a "climbing maximized" trail is next to it.


If the land managers have allowed or created a trail that is DH oriented and a Climbing oriented trail "next to it", what is their reasoning for making them both Multi-directional? where exactly is this at? What group is the land manager from? Have you actually been to trail planning meetings with them? are you involved in a local trail building group that regularly interfaces with the manager?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Making unclimbable by most, or at least _not remotely enjoyable_ to climb to most, and then no signage will be needed.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

^i think that worked well until E-bikes.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

WHALENARD said:


> ^i think that worked well until E-bikes.


That's a good point.

That said, the trails I like to climb would be even harder on an e-bike. Too tight and techy to hump a heavy beast like that around.


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## Stratocaster (Sep 30, 2004)

Yes, yes and yes. I operative concept is that these are modified legacy trails. The land manager is good, however there will be no enforcement, we can't even get the dirt bikes and quads out when it's illegal. and we're trying to solicit creative and practical feedback.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

put a sign at the top warning DH'ers that it is a 2 way trail 
and climbers have priority,


so if they want to bomb it they'd better pre-ride it and have someone stand on
the lower part of trail ready to warn DH'ers of any climbers.

otherwise don't -bomb- it be prepared to give way to a climber.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

How long have people been climbing these trails? What caused the need for the direction change? They might not change their mind on how to ride it just because someone told them they should be going down it now. 
Who decided it should be downhill, and under what authority? Are you looking for creative ways to circumvent the land manager's decision regarding one way trails?


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Put a dodgy ass sign written in blood with a finger "DH trail only! Dont climb...."

That'l scare them off.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Jumps and berms and drops. Natural features that can really only be ridden one way. Couple that with bells on your handlebars.


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## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

If you land manager won't allow a true one way trail will they allow "recommended directional" signage? If not, perhaps a warning along with a suggestion of the appropriate trail to use for up hill?


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> If you absolutely must get your GNAR on and strava bro the trail...


Is having fun by going fast now strava bro-ing a trail?


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

EatsDirt said:


> Is having fun by going fast now strava bro-ing a trail?


Some people just ride to commune with nature.  Me, I like to go fast. If I wanted to go slow, I'd hike.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

bankerboy said:


> If you land manager won't allow a true one way trail will they allow "recommended directional" signage? If not, perhaps a warning along with a suggestion of the appropriate trail to use for up hill?
> 
> View attachment 1322621


We have a number of signs like this (well, smaller) at the bottom of most of popular downhills. The trails are still multi-directional and multi-use. The idea is to inform people who would make a different decision if they know that they're likely to encounter downhill riders.


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## Stratocaster (Sep 30, 2004)

There is no directional change, it was always dh oriented, no one even thought to climb it until strava showed up with the desperation to kom a seldom used segment.


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## Stratocaster (Sep 30, 2004)

Thanks to those who addressed the actual question. We got some good ideas.


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## Surestick Malone (Jan 24, 2004)

I believe there's a way to get segments removed from Strava (for safety/land-use issues). 

If you remove the climbing direction Strava segment then people might start using the climbing trails to get KOMs. 

However, as others have said, if your land-manager doesn't want one-way trails then no matter how much you want it they are officially two-way trails.

You could try a few drops with no cheater-line around them or wall-ride style berms around switchbacks that make sections essentially un-climbable, even to e-bikes. 

Signs at the bottom that don't specifically forbid climbing the trail but sound like they do might be an option as well "Please use trail X to climb" or something. That way you're not saying anything is forbidden but it reads that way. 

At the end of the day you could pay someone to stand at the bottom of the trail and direct riders and you'll still get the one or two idiots that feel the need to be contrary. I was at an organized XC race where there were signs up everywhere and there was an idiot who decided he was going to walk his dog off-leash on the racecourse, putting his dog and racers at risk, because "that's where he always walks his dog". You just can't fix stupid like that. If the location is open to the public then it's the responsibility of the downhill riders to control their speed. A climbing rider is just as likely to get hurt if you ride into them as the downhill rider in front of you who crashed in the trail.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Surestick Malone said:


> You could try a few drops with no cheater-line around them


a legit dh trail should be unclimbable on a bike or an ebike by nature...


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

bankerboy said:


> If you land manager won't allow a true one way trail will they allow "recommended directional" signage? If not, perhaps a warning along with a suggestion of the appropriate trail to use for up hill?
> 
> View attachment 1322621


Since you're looking for legit ideas, this is the best I've seen. This is on a flow trail at dupont, which is top 5 in the country, but it's still multidirectional.

As others have said, make a hike a bike section if you're climbing, but you can still ride down it. A local hiking group did that unintentionally and it receives very little use both ways unless you're ready to literally ride down a cliff.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Paint some directional arrows on rocks. Subtle but has the desired effect. We have a few trails at Brandywine near us that are primarily one direction, and this helped.


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> a legit dh trail should be unclimbable on a bike or an ebike by nature...


What Mike said.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

A multi use trail has a speed liimit of 15mph. You should be able to stop in time.


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## Pisgah (Feb 24, 2006)

If the trail is multidirectional, You should probably not add signs to discourage uphill travel. Otherwise, you're asking for bike access issues. You should go through the land manager. Maybe offer to build a completely different "downhill trail."


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

We have one trail here that has a few sections on which people reach the highest speeds of just about any local trail. It's well-known to locals primarily as a DH route but the USFS won't allow it to be designated as a one-way. The fastest sections have several jumps, berms, and drops that hint at the primary use, but some people insist on pedaling or running up it, either out of defiance or just lack of awareness. There is an adjacent "climbing line" that's sort of inviting for people ascending, hoping they take the hint. Would you be allowed to create adjacent climbing lines on the fastest, most risky sections?


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Vader said:


> A multi use trail has a speed liimit of 15mph. You should be able to stop in time.


How is this relevant?

I'm not part of the discussed trail system but I can regularly hit 25mph on our toughest downhills. The grade and rocky terrain makes it pretty difficult to stop. In summer when foliage grows back I slow down due to sight lines but it would be nice if I didn't need to like a directional trail.

Seems like consensus in their local area already considers it a downhill specific trail. It's just a few people who are going against the grain and potentially ruining it for the intended downhill use of the trail.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Vader said:


> A multi use trail has a speed liimit of 15mph. You should be able to stop in time.


That depends on the land manager.

One of the OP's constraints that's getting overlooked in this specific conversation is that these are legacy trails- they are likely limited in what they can do insofar as designing a DH trail that isn't climbable.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Vader said:


> A multi use trail has a speed liimit of 15mph.


Hmmmm. I exceed that speed all the time.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

bankerboy said:


> If you land manager won't allow a true one way trail will they allow "recommended directional" signage? If not, perhaps a warning along with a suggestion of the appropriate trail to use for up hill?
> 
> View attachment 1322621


I like this idea a lot.


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## Stratocaster (Sep 30, 2004)

https://www.myparkingsign.com/traff...MIwOWMs6rZ6AIVip-fCh1jkgY_EAQYAiABEgIQdvD_BwE

I like it !


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Nat said:


> Hmmmm. I exceed that speed all the time.


Me too, if I have a line of sight, but theres one trail here the shuttle bunnies love to drop. Thing is, it was built by Cub Scouts and is frequented by hikers and equestrians. I ride up it on my single speed. Theres a road that goes up to the top of the trail and on to a fire lookout, but its deadly with kids playing ralley car.


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## Pisgah (Feb 24, 2006)

Fajita Dave said:


> Seems like consensus in their local area already considers it a downhill specific trail. It's just a few people who are going against the grain and potentially ruining it for the intended downhill use of the trail.


I beg to differ. It sounds like the consensus is that it's a multidirectional trail and a few people are going against the grain and potentially ruining it for intended multidirectional use of the trail.

The real problem is that bikes and riders today are too damn good.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Vader said:


> A multi use trail has a speed liimit of 15mph. You should be able to stop in time.


Does anyone have a realistic feel for a speed limit on a bike? For me that's 24kmh. On the flat I'm not going that speed but I'd say on a decent descent I would. But I'd have no idea unless I stared at my Garmin.

Build a few small step downs. Just a two or three feet with no option to go around or ride up.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

I think you're borrowing trouble you don't have. I question the concept of a trail having too much speed to be safe for up hill, or multi use. Reason being, none of us should be riding past our available line of sight. Not because of user conflicts, but because that's how you Mtn Bike. I like to ride fast on trails that land themselves to that. Unless we're riding off lifts where trails are always clear, one never knows what tree fell last night, and if you ride long enough you'll have those stories about being on a fast section of trail....or coming off the lip of a jump to see at the last second a limb, or tree down....or ATV full of national guardsmen....it's amazing how fast we can stop, and being able to is a basic concept of riding. 

I think it's OK to have a trail or two give DH traffic the ROW. This sounds like a good situation for that. Climbers and hikers can usually hear fast oncoming, and give a verbal "Riders up" and be out of line pretty quick. 

Maybe just a "Yeild to DH traffic" sign on that trail.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Mudguard said:


> Does anyone have a realistic feel for a speed limit on a bike? For me that's 24kmh. On the flat I'm not going that speed but I'd say on a decent descent I would. But I'd have no idea unless I stared at my Garmin.


It's 30mph, because any time someone tells a tale of riding they say, "I was just _flying _down this hill doing like THIRTY when all of the sudden..."


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Nat said:


> "I was just _flying _down this hill doing like THIRTY when all of the sudden..."


i had to bunnyhop this kid...


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Pisgah said:


> I beg to differ. It sounds like the consensus is that it's a multidirectional trail and a few people are going against the grain and potentially ruining it for intended multidirectional use of the trail.
> 
> The real problem is that bikes and riders today are too damn good.


Yes, lets all go back to riding crappy ridged frames with 19mm rims and canti brakes. My as well forget all of the skills we've acquired too.

A great downhill generally sucks for climbing. What sucks more is deconstructing a great downhill into a mediocre multi-direction trail just because a few people are creating a safety issue by trying to ride up the downhill trail.

The OP already said it's always been a downhill trail until Strava came along and someone needed to find a climb no one liked so they can hold the KOM on it.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

^Nope. Not even close, OP said, and I quote, "Some old legacy trails have been reworked to maximize the DH". Not a downhill before Strava, something that they want to make one way in opposition to the land manager.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

MattiThundrrr said:


> ^Nope. Not even close, OP said, and I quote, "Some old legacy trails have been reworked to maximize the DH". Not a downhill before Strava, something that they want to make one way in opposition to the land manager.


...........


Stratocaster said:


> There is no directional change, it was always dh oriented, no one even thought to climb it until strava showed up with the desperation to kom a seldom used segment.


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## Pisgah (Feb 24, 2006)

Fajita Dave said:


> Yes, lets all go back to riding crappy ridged frames with 19mm rims and canti brakes. My as well forget all of the skills we've acquired too.
> 
> A great downhill generally sucks for climbing. What sucks more is deconstructing a great downhill into a mediocre multi-direction trail just because a few people are creating a safety issue by trying to ride up the downhill trail.
> 
> The OP already said it's always been a downhill trail until Strava came along and someone needed to find a climb no one liked so they can hold the KOM on it.


The OP said it's designated for up and downhill use by the land manager. And it sounds like the OP and his friends are trying to discourage legitimate uphill travel...which, in my opinion is bad for bike access. He even suggests DH riders may hit people...which is really bad for trail access.

Remember, this is a "trail advocacy" forum. The OP and his friends are trying to discourage legitimate trail use. That is bad for mountain bike trai access no matter what time period.

Finally, there are many riders who love to clean serious technical climbs.

Edit: My statement about riders and bikes being too good these days was meant as a complement. We can haul some serious ass today, far faster than early biking. But I don't think that's a license to discourage legitimate trail use.


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## mbmtb (Nov 28, 2013)

Pisgah said:


> The OP said it's designated for up and downhill use by the land manager. And it sounds like the OP and his friends are trying to discourage legitimate uphill travel...which, in my opinion is bad for bike access. He even suggests DH riders may hit people...which is really bad for trail access.


The land manager may well understand/want it to be DH bikes primary. But have other policies or regulations which make it difficult for them to make that official. Thus you get things like the yellow "you probably don't want to be here" sign.

As a practical answer, can you put a filter feature at the bottom? Maybe slightly hidden even? I guess it'll be hard to stop the strava people aiming for a Personal Record on repeat, but if there's a lower junction where the uphill/downill intersect and you can hide and make challenging one, people will go to the other. But not always possible.


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