# Bikes Direct, good or bad?/



## Runfox (Nov 4, 2008)

I have a nice hard tail bike, but would love to buy an affordable full suspension bike, As in say $800.00 or less. I know I can buy a new full suspension bike from my local shop for $1500.00 but I cant spend that right now. I see Bikes Direct selling Motobacanes for $800.00 that look good , but I have to wonder about thier quality?? And do they hold any value??


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

They wont retain value, but their bikes are fine. Geo is a bit out dated, but if you check everything once it arrives it should br fine.

I'm not sure about their FS bikes, I have their SS 29er, and although it doesn't see a lot of miles, the bike is not bad, its just not steel


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## wannabe_shredder (Dec 23, 2018)

Also, consider buying used. I had a similar budget as yours and I picked up a barely ridden 8 yo Stumpjumper Comp for that price. Great bike.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Keep in mind that their bikes are nothing like what the crazy marketing mumbo jumbo claims they are.

I personally recommend against bikes direct simply because of their marketing BS. Some of what they say is vaguely deceptive, but sometimes they outright lie. Plus their website looks like it was built on the geocities platform in 1994.

But taken for their spec lists alone, they're fine. Just not worth any more than what you actually spend. And no, they don't hold value. There are other direct-to-consumer brands that hold their value much better, avoid the shady marketing, and simply offer better bikes. You'll usually pay more for them, but you DO get what you pay for most of the time.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

^^ yeah WTH is up with their site!


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Youve received excellent and accurate advice. Im always the person looking at the used market and try to find something that hasnt been abused thats a few years old. There are a lot of people who don't stick with this sport so their bike sits in a basement. 

My friend just sold a giant anthem in your budget. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## EABiker (Jun 24, 2004)

I bought a Motobecane FS Fantom 29'er back in 2015, and have a couple thousand miles of abuse on it with no issues. I did mod it with a dropper, wider carbon bars, and a 2deg. slackening headset, but the stock drivetrain, suspension, and wheelset are still as delivered and working fine.


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## Runfox (Nov 4, 2008)

Thanks for the help all, I have been looking at used bikes, 95% are mongoose junk, occasionally a decent giant , trek or specialized, and these want top dollar for, the only ones I have seen under 1k are the 2002/ 2004 old FS bikes, just not having any luck with used, and so many sizes other than a medium size frame I want, that’s why I was looking at bikes direct, they are affordable, and new not 13 years old


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Runfox said:


> Thanks for the help all, I have been looking at used bikes, 95% are mongoose junk, occasionally a decent giant , trek or specialized, and these want top dollar for, the only ones I have seen under 1k are the 2002/ 2004 old FS bikes, just not having any luck with used, and so many sizes other than a medium size frame I want, that's why I was looking at bikes direct, they are affordable, and new not 13 years old


You gotta be patient on the used market. Check facebook groups instead of craigslist. MTB swap meet, regional swap meets on facebook too. There are ones for arizona, southeast, colorado, and another nation wide swap meet too.

If steel bikes are your thing there's a surly group, surly and salsa group too.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

bikes direct

good bikes+cheese components

more money = less cheese components


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

In the large part BD bikes are solid and pretty decent values, and it's a reputable company. Nothing they sell is junk of the caliber you'll find at Walmart, etc.. It certainly helps to know what you want and have enough knowledge to understand what you're looking at on their website. Yeah, they could have a better and more modern website, but look at it this way, what they save in website development they pass on to you, their customer.


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## wannabe_shredder (Dec 23, 2018)

You can also check out pinkbike.com 
It took me a couple of months of checking but I was able to get a 3 yr old bike for less a third of the msrp


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Runfox (Nov 4, 2008)

I have looked st Craigslist, Facebook market place, OfferUp, Letitgo, and 9mies , the last 3 are apps, the only thing I usually see under $1000, are the 02 Ellsworth, the 04 Giant VT and such. Which would be project bikes to upgrade , at least BD is a decent new bike to start with upgrades. I would like to have a FS to get me through 3-4 years till I am ready to retire, then I’ll buy a nice FS bike unlimited price , right now it’s harf to explain to my wife, when I have a nice 2017 karoram GT hard tail , why I want to spend $800 or so on another bike!


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## Runfox (Nov 4, 2008)

Yes I have looked st Pinkbike, lots of bike all over Canada and US, most would require shipping, not sure I would feel comfortable buying a used bike sight unseen, paying to ship it to me , unsure of condition and satisfaction after I get it


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Runfox said:


> Thanks for the help all, I have been looking at used bikes, 95% are mongoose junk, occasionally a decent giant , trek or specialized, and these want top dollar for, the only ones I have seen under 1k are the 2002/ 2004 old FS bikes, just not having any luck with used, and so many sizes other than a medium size frame I want, that's why I was looking at bikes direct, they are affordable, and new not 13 years old


The used market is fine, but it depends where you live and if anything comes along.If you are just looking for a specific bike, and know what you are looking for in a used bike, then it can work out. I think BD is good alternative, even though a few upgrades are probably a must but not too expensive.

Pedals - RF Chestesr $50.00
Handlebar - Chromag 780mm $50.00 (on sale usually 70 but you can find tons of bars around that price range) Orignally was 660mm LOL! 
Saddle - Charge Spoon $30.00 - not shown, and had it my parts bin.

It now has a drop bar, but don't have a picture.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

bikes direct is totally legit

just needs signature at delivery time (PITA)

I got a CX bike and raced it one summer, bike did not hold me back one iota. what was cheese on it was the bottom bracket axle/bearings wasn't the greatest but otherwise got a race worthy CX bike for super cheap. also the handlebars weren't my style but rolled with them anyway.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

JCD secretly works for BD. He receives a commission every time he convinces a forum user to buy a bike. He then turns around and uses the cash to buy Salsa bikes and parts lol


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Battery said:


> JCD secretly works for BD. He receives a commission every time he convinces a forum user to buy a bike. He then turns around and uses the cash to buy KONA & SURLY bikes and parts lol


Fify!


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

jcd46 said:


> Fify!


oh that's right! Surly, Salsa...they all taste good. Ice Cream Truck...mmmm......


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## wannabe_shredder (Dec 23, 2018)

Runfox said:


> Yes I have looked st Pinkbike, lots of bike all over Canada and US, most would require shipping, not sure I would feel comfortable buying a used bike sight unseen, paying to ship it to me , unsure of condition and satisfaction after I get it


Yeah I got mine shipped as well and the condition was not as pristine as was described. If you use PayPal, you are protected. In my case, the seller agreed to lower the price to what we agreed was fair and refunded me the difference.

I also found some used bikes on e-bay but they were a bit pricier.

I agree with a new bike, you have the peace of mind that you are getting what you think are getting.

For my next bike - I plan to get a new one when the old models get put on sale for 35-40% off towards the end of year.


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## BillyBicycle (Jul 4, 2016)

I have purchased nine or more bikes from BD for my family and I over the last 8 years. You get what you pay for, nothing more. Occasionally at the end of the year (black friday or December) , you'll get a closeout and pay 20% less on limited sizes, etc.

Had a few issues here and there, had to press for service pretty hard. CS is not their strong point.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

I'd spend a little more and get a Diamondback Release or a similar quality bike from one of the other mail order shops.

For years I've been shopping on BD's site and reading reviews and always ultimately buy something else. But I always consider it. Here's my take...

You don't need to be afraid of buying from them. The company does thrive and it has a few iconic models (Kilo TT, Fantom, Boris, HAL). There's an active subforum here on MTBR https://forums.mtbr.com/motobecane/

Their cheap bikes are as cheap as any cheap bike and I avoid those everywhere. If it has a 7 speed freewheel and Tourney or worse, avoid it. They also do something that is crappy, but other companies do the same - they offer cheap full suspension bikes that are basically damping-free, under-sprung pogo sticks. At $800 that's what you are getting no matter if you spend it on a BD or on a Diamondback Atroz. For that money you can get a good-enough hard tail and that's what you should do.

Their mid range bikes are inexpensive because their frame designs and components are a few years out of date. This makes them par with discounted old-stock bikes for value. The difference being that old-stock bikes are not available in a variety of builds or sizes. There's a problem with their behind-ness, though: they are way off trend in frame geometry and the new geometry is great. Even on a relatively conservative hard tail mountain bike you can see their seat tubes are too long for droppers, most of their head angles >= 70, etc. They update slowly.

Their marketing _is _dishonest. They call out competing bikes with similar features but the competitors usually have nicer quality frames with higher component levels from the current model year. They're a good deal, but not the screaming deal they claim. Still, Trek last week claimed they changed cycling forever. BD has never claimed that!

No one seems to have anything terrible to say about their titanium or carbon bikes. They're good for the price.

They don't do any engineering and this is where it falls down a bit for me. The linkage and shock of a FS bike are really important. It's just not good unless it has a good fork, good working linkage, etc. Or if you look at road bikes, you won't find anything like IsoSpeed. That stuff is difficult to design and make. But people a are buying them and you can get commuting support here on MTBR if you choose to go that way.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Just say no, a kittens life depends on it.


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## supermoto65 (Apr 1, 2014)

Darth Lefty said:


> I'd spend a little more and get a Diamondback Release or a similar quality bike from one of the other mail order shops.
> 
> For years I've been shopping on BD's site and reading reviews and always ultimately buy something else. But I always consider it. Here's my take...
> 
> ...


This ... and I have 4 BD bikes.

Only issues I've had are 2 bent hangars on delivery. Avoid the cheaper FS and HT bikes they have for reasons above. The higher-end FS are proven linkage designs and work well.

Started with a Gravity Point 5 (I think) HT with Recon fork. Then bought a Motobecane Phantom 4x4 Pro DS with Recon gold. Really nice bike for the $$.
Got a Motobecane 27.5 HT for my daughter.

Gave the Phantom to my son and I just got a HAL Boost Eagle 29 and upgraded the wheelset (27.5 ARC 35's), bars, stem and pedals ... Love it so far.

Had I researched direct to consumer brands a little more I may have chosen to spend a little more $ on a DB or Canyon or Fezzari but I still feel I have a good bike with okay geo for a great price.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

life behind bars said:


> Just say no, a kittens life depends on it.


That reminds me. I need to try that "Exploding Kittens" game. :arf:


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

noapathy said:


> That reminds me. I need to try that "Exploding Kittens" game. :arf:


I have a copy - plus the imploding kittens expansion pack. got in on the kickstarter. It's hilarious. when I get new people playing, I make them actually read the cards aloud, because most people just gloss over them and don't really think about how hilariously ridiculous they are.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

I only can speak for my fatbike from them. They have different price levels for each category, more money will get you better components.

My bike had an excellent frame (smooth welds, lightish) and fits 170mm dropper with room to spare.

Componenets mostly were higher level than more expensive LBS fatbikes. RF chainring, BB, crank etc. Good brakes, tires.... I crosshopped with Trek and Specialized etc.
Even the invisible headset is brandname sealed bearing.

I probably saved 50% with BD. It also seemed to be a better value than framed. Mine was $1,100 and then the cheapest 197mm TA fatbike. That wad 2017. My impression was Framed bikes have a bit less value.

They also have higher priced bikes, but at that point you also can look at Canyon or YT. 

Some above mentioned outdated geo and sure mean regular MTB. Mine being a fatbike is fine, YMMV

One advantage of the cheaper design is they don't have all that proprietary frame crap, handlebarheadset pressfit and so on. Honest solid design with off the shelf components.

They also list all component models (expensive as well as cheap ones) So you can judge what you get. LBS brands use cheap noname components an the call them their housebrand name.

BTW, mine was made in Taiwan by Kinesis. Most LBS brands produce in China.... whatever that may mean.


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## bikepacker88 (Mar 13, 2019)

I wanted to buy a new fatbike from a boutique brand at my LBS, but nothing I wanted was in stock and to be honest it was like being in a car dealership hounded by lying salesmen.

Ultimately I bought a NightTrain Bullet from BD decked out in great components, Sram GX Eagle 1x12, XT brakes, Bluto fork. I will upgrade the hubs at some point but so far the bike has been flawless. I have no complaints with the buying experience and the CS was great.

The way I see it I saved 50% buying from BD and will shop there again despite the 90's website and advertising.


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## Runfox (Nov 4, 2008)

All good info and advise that’s you all, I have a good hardtail Karakoram got 2017, it’s a good starter that why I bought it, I can’t spend any money right now but I think latter this year I may be able to save up say$900 and get a BD Fanthom DS Deire 29 Er. I don’t really know the difference firm the cheap to better components yet like you all do,. I don’t get to ride very often right now either, so I’m not in shape yet to push my bike hard, so entry level, vs higher end parts , I don’t see make that much difference now until I have time to train and ride more.then if a BD component started to fail or disappoint me, I could swap it out, and I do have a good bike stand , a full mechanics toolbox, and a good bike repair manual!!


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## Runfox (Nov 4, 2008)

I have no problem wrenching on a bike, I have swapped engines in my old Ford F-150, worked on my Ford ranger and my Mustang, I’m a mechanic by trade so cheap ,vs good bike components right now just done seam to be a big deal


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

If this is the model you looking at Save up to 60% off new Mountain Bikes - MTB - Motobecane Fantom 2729DS Disc brakes, Tubeless Compatible Rims, You might consider the next model up for its usable RockShox air fork and better brakes. It's the version in the video. Save up to 60% off new Mountain Bikes - MTB - Motobecane Fantom 2729DS Disc brakes, Tubeless Compatible Rims 
Worth the extra $200.

This is the hardtail recommended for about the same money. $999.
Scout 290 Sport 2019 | Nukeproof
It has more current geo, Boost hubs front and rear which are current. And 29mm inner width rims for wide tire choices.2.5 or 2.6 front.





https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/nukeproof-scout-290-sport-mountain-bike-2019/rp-prod170308

This is a competitive model.
Vitus
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com...9-mountain-bike-deore-1x10-2019/rp-prod173161

Both are sold out right now but will come back in stock periodically.
The Vitus has a bit better geo, imo. Click size chart to see it. Shorter chainstays and longer reach. Be careful on sizing.


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## 779334 (Oct 10, 2014)

I don't like their geometry. You may like their higher end bikes, but if you go for cheap, you may be disappointed. Look into Diamondback Atroz for that price.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

AVL-MTB said:


> I don't like their geometry. You may like their higher end bikes, but if you go for cheap, you may be disappointed. Look into Diamondback Atroz for that price.


this isn't just for you. but what geometry detail is what people say is "outdated" or bad? 
the industry is moving to slacker head angles etc. so are they just not as slack as more modern designs? Or what other specific geometry complaints exist?

Not trying to argue, just curious what exactly is considered not modern.


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## westernmtb (Dec 19, 2018)

Their mountain bikes have longer chain stays: usually 44 to 45 cm when the industry standard is between 43 and 43.5 cm. 

Reach is usually shorter on a medium, around 41.5 cm vs 43 cm or so.


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

If a half an inch longer chainstay makes or breaks your decision to buy a Bikes direct bike- you may be taking your biking a little too seriously. I personally went for a $2000 Bikes Direct 29er full susser with 150mm travel and saved 1500-2000 over a Boutique brand bike of equally equipped components. Maybe the people who are the most vocal against Motobecane are the ones with the greatest ties to the name brand bikes. Just my 02 cents.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

I got to see and work on my first bikes direct bike this week. Someone brought it into the shop. 

Just be careful when you read the parts spec. This one had deore shifting, but ive never seen mechanical disc brakes that were this bad. 

With avid, there is a click when you adjust the pad and it cannot move. Its been that way more than a decade. 

With these you turn it the brake pad adjuster with an allen wrench, but it was so easy to move they could easily back out. Super sketchy setup and not the place to skimp. The bike was super heavy, but the welds looked great. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## sehovarter (Oct 19, 2020)

new to the forum, I have to say its funny to read all the BikesDirect haters here. I have been a bike mechanic since 1977, still ride my 1978 Schwinn Super Le Tour 12.2 (modified along the way to currently be running shimano 105 10 speed group set), my 1985 Trek first mountain bike (well, the cranks are still alive, a cracked head tube in the early 90's resulted in a new Trek 530 frame and other upgrades), and am just retiring my 2000 Specialized Stumpjumper Pro M2 for a new BikesDirect HAL BOOST PRO S12 29ER. For $2000 - what a bike! if I would have purchased is last March when i got my wife a BD 1x12 it would have only cost me $1700. the bike came in perfect health, went together wihtout a hitch, and on my 11.5 mi/1500 vertical foot home course, in the 2 months since I have had the bike, has cut 20 min off my time. would a Yeti or new specialized be as good or better - maybe, but I bought the bike sight unseen, and cannot be more happier with how it rides, performs, handles, and how much money I saved. the ONLY issue with BikesDirect is you can't do a test ride before you buy. for some, that is a deal breaker. for now, I am letting any or all of my friends ride my bike, and if they like it, they will buy one, and I will build it for them. Don't fall for the brand name snobbery and other rubbish on this forum that says their bikes are trash - not true, and NO, I DO NOT work for bikes direct, I own one, and I love it!


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## bluerider6 (Oct 21, 2020)

Where did you buy your hard tail bike?


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

Most people who go the Bikes Direct route are really just trying to save $$, and there is nothing wrong with that. There is a perceived "savings" but you are really just getting low end parts specced to old geometry frames. Once you ride a higher end bike, you realize pretty quickly to stay away from BD. We all upgraded at some point, and if it gets you into the sport then the more the merrier!


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

Thustlewhumber said:


> Most people who go the Bikes Direct route are really just trying to save $$, and there is nothing wrong with that. There is a perceived "savings" but you are really just getting low end parts specced to old geometry frames. Once you ride a higher end bike, you realize pretty quickly to stay away from BD. We all upgraded at some point, and if it gets you into the sport then the more the merrier!


 Not true- My "low end parts" were the same parts specc'd out on $4k boutique brand bikes and I paid $2k. Sram GX Eagle, Rockshox Pike, etc


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

Thustlewhumber said:


> Most people who go the Bikes Direct route are really just trying to save $$, and there is nothing wrong with that. There is a perceived "savings" but you are really just getting low end parts specced to old geometry frames. Once you ride a higher end bike, you realize pretty quickly to stay away from BD. We all upgraded at some point, and if it gets you into the sport then the more the merrier!


completely and demonstrably false. for the same money, you get much nicer and higher end parts on a value brand bike wheter it be BD and or CRC. People who actually know what they are talking about and have experience riding different tiers of bikes and components know this. the parts and components make a much bigger difference than the frame.

The better air fork alone makes a big difference in a how a bike handles.

did you know one the women's XCO races was won an a korean no name bike frame with very little frame building experience? she was unsponsored so rode a generic. Her parts, however were good parts.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

bob13bob said:


> completely and demonstrably false. for the same money, you get much nicer and higher end parts on a value brand bike wheter it be BD and or CRC. People who actually know what they are talking about and have experience riding different tiers of bikes and components know this. the parts and components make a much bigger difference than the frame.
> 
> The better air fork alone makes a big difference in a how a bike handles.
> 
> did you know one the women's XCO races was won an a korean no name bike frame with very little frame building experience? she was unsponsored so rode a generic. Her parts, however were good parts.


Quality of frame construction aside, *fancy components can fix shitty geometry. *

I've owned one, not just speculating.

Granted there seems to only be people at extreme opposite ends of this argument, every time. Some people are quite happy with the BD products and the riding experience from the bikes. That's great, if you like it, ride it like you stole it.

To your point, people who have ridden and owned a variety of modern geometry bikes would never consider a serious mountain bike from BD. They don't belong in the same conversation.

That's all I care to say here, the rest of you are welcome to hash it out.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

Since my last comment I replaced my BD fatbike with a new frame/fork (kept all parts). 
I still stand by the fact that you get good parts (they list all parts) and the frame/fork are of excellent quality. Actually the BD frame was lighter than the one I replaced it with. 

Where they fail, is geometry. May not matter for a commuter, road or hybrid bike. But for off-roading this matters. This isn't unlike lower level LBS bikes. So they still can be a good deal for beginners. 

I think they will update geometry right after they update their website. 

Maybe 10 years ago they had the same geo like the good bikes, but good bikes got better geo. 

As for value, I feel they maintained a specific value over the years. their problem is, other brands appeared and provide similar value (at higher level). So now it isn't a $1K BD bike compared to a $3K LBS bike that is much better. Nowadays it is the same $1K BD bike compared to a $1.3K competing direct seller bike that is much better (mostly better geo). So IMHO there is much less reason to buy a BD bike and compromise on geo. 

They had a nice setup when it was only them and LBS. Now it is them, LBS and YT, Canyon, Vitus, RSD....


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Quality of frame construction aside, *fancy components can fix shitty geometry. *
> 
> I've owned one, not just speculating.
> 
> ...


I raced a bikedirect motobecane. road it to death. sadly it was stolen. Loved that bike. I've ridden and owned a slew of bikes. also introduced many to this sport

I've already countered this "modern geometry" argument on here. check my post history I find the people who state this are relatively low information posters, who swear that slacker Head tube angle (hta) is the greatest thing. yet on youtube from people who own both... many prefer the older steeper hta. I follow the gear used in pro xco. the BD bikes have the same hta as many of the big brand bikes who regularly win xco races. You may think you know more than race mechanics and riders, but you don't. one can learn more here. 
https://forums.mtbr.com/xc-racing-training/world-cup-equipment-2020-a-1154153-2.html#post15021239

bike manufacturers love to push newer gear and tech to sell more bikes. but the race is where the BS hits a wall.

in you're mind, BD aren't serious bikes. But i find the opposite is true. A big brand $1400 makes lot of compromises like spring heavy ass fork, mechanical brakes. An $800 value brand is a very serious bike with an lighter and much better riding air fork, and hydraulic brakes. outside of adjusting your bike to your fit, tires, air fork + hydraulic brakes are some of the biggest changes to ride feel you can make.

moving up a tier $2000 BD vs $3000 big brand hardtails. the BD will have a $600 racing level fork, a sid, while the big brand still have a $240 low end fork. much higher end components and BD will have dtswiss wheelset. the BD will be much lighter, much better riding due to fork. If i debranded the bikes and AB tested them with 100 riders. the vast majority would prefer the BD. shaving 3lbs of a hardtail is huge.

specialized doesn't even list their bike components online, what a joke. they are selling to low information buyers.

in my trails, you know who's got the fastest bikes, its the ones with the fastest riders. the biggest $ bikes, the cleaner and less scratched it tends to be > the less it's ridden. Then you see a guy rocking a cyclocross speeding along passing people up.

my recommendation is get a value brand bike where you the most components / $. BD, CRC, or whoever gets your competitive components.


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

HerrKaLeu said:


> As for value, I feel they maintained a specific value over the years. their problem is, other brands appeared and provide similar value (at higher level). So now it isn't a $1K BD bike compared to a $3K LBS bike that is much better. Nowadays it is the same $1K BD bike compared to a $1.3K competing direct seller bike that is much better (mostly better geo). So IMHO there is much less reason to buy a BD bike and compromise on geo.
> 
> They had a nice setup when it was only them and LBS. Now it is them, LBS and YT, Canyon, Vitus, RSD....


yeah it's great it's gotten more competitive and people around here start to see the buy in value branded bikes whether it be BD or CRC. when I first start pushing hard on value bikes being better than big brands years ago, it was like pulling teeth on here.

you mean 1k value brand BD vs 1.3k different value brand right? Because i've never seen a big brand 1.3k being even remotely competitive to a 1k BD bike.

if you guys want to discuss geo, then why don't we actually get some concrete examples in this thread that can be scrutinized. almost every brand has lots of geo's available.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

bob13bob said:


> you mean 1k value brand BD vs 1.3k different value brand right? Because i've never seen a big brand 1.3k being even remotely competitive to a 1k BD bike.


Hard to put a number on bile "value". Value is what I get (riding experience, weight, longevity etc.).

Many of the direct-sellers nowadays have similar value. So the baseline would be, for $1K I get $1K " bike". Obviously, a $2K bike will be better than a $1K bike assuming both from a brand with similar value/$. BD is selling bikes more on the lower price point, Canyon more on the higher price point. But both give a similar $/value.

LBS brands require $1.5K/$1K bike value. That covers the added cost an LBS has, service etc.

So the decision between BD and other direct-sellers is more if you want a cheaper bike, while accepting it provides less value (geo, etc) or if you buy a more expensive direct bike and get a "nicer" bike.

So BD is a lower level direct-seller, Canyon would be a higher level direct seller.

The decision between LBS and direct sellers is based on if you want to pay for the perceived "service" of an LBS, or not. If you only look at the bike, on average the direct-seller is a better deal.

Maybe it is part of me maturing in my riding and finding out what riding I'm doing. BD was a good place to start. But my next bike (if I can help it) is more oriented on good geometry, more like an RSD level bike, or a bike from frame up.

BD has its place for entry level, casual riders, riders that don't ride like crazy. Given the reality not everyone can buy a $3K bike, BD is better than no bike.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

bob13bob said:


> I raced a bikedirect motobecane. road it to death. sadly it was stolen. Loved that bike. I've ridden and owned a slew of bikes. also introduced many to this sport
> 
> I've already countered this "modern geometry" argument on here. check my post history I find the people who state this are relatively low information posters, who swear that slacker Head tube angle (hta) is the greatest thing. yet on youtube from people who own both... many prefer the older steeper hta. I follow the gear used in pro xco. the BD bikes have the same hta as many of the big brand bikes who regularly win xco races. You may think you know more than race mechanics and riders, but you don't. one can learn more here.
> https://forums.mtbr.com/xc-racing-training/world-cup-equipment-2020-a-1154153-2.html#post15021239
> ...


You're VERY focused on speed, light weight, and racing. Not everyone else is. That's also not the only way to measure the quality, value, or fun factor of a bike. Realistically, the number of amateur MTB riders that race XC at a competitive level is a very small percentage of cycling population.

For someone with your claimed many years of experience, one would think you would understand that by now.

While I love racing and testing my own limits, I'm fully aware that most people don't want to ride, let alone race, what I love the most, a steel SS 29er.

*Clearly what you want is NOT what I want. Fair enough. Ride your bike and enjoy it, I'll do the same. *

The reason I try to avoid these ridiculous threads is because nobody here is changing anyone elses mind. Argue all you like, there's clearly two opposing opinions and very little middle ground.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

> moving up a tier $2000 BD vs $3000 big brand hardtails. the BD will have a $600 racing level fork, a sid, while the big brand still have a $240 low end fork.





> specialized doesn't even list their bike components online, what a joke.


Buy what you want and ride what you bought, but the above statements just are not true. While I did not find any 3k XC hardtails with a SID from the big three, their closest models to 3k (all under) definitely did not have low end forks and Specialized most definitely lists components on their completes online.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

god this thread again?

I will reiterate what I've said before. With any bike, you're getting EXACTLY what you're paying for. It's not my fault if you can't understand why that's the case. A $1500 bike is a price point bike. Everybody is going to be cutting corners somewhere. BD cuts more corners than many, because their prices are lower. It's not hard to figure out where those corners are cut.

Their advertising has ALWAYS been skeevy and misleading, making many people think they're getting more than they are. No. You're getting exactly what you're paying for. BD is just lying to you, and either you don't care or you're gullible. Well, I have standards, and I won't buy from them. I'd shop YT or Canyon or another direct sale company that markets their bikes only for what they are. I HAVE purchased a bike from CRC in the past, who only marketed their bike for exactly what it was. No misleading bullshit. I HAVE bought a Diamondback online before. Again, no misleading bullshit.

They also throw parts together that don't make sense for the purpose of a bike build. It's clear that they just throw together a bunch of random **** because they've got a lot of it. XC tires on long travel bikes. Longass cranks on small bikes. Little things that a lot of people won't notice, but they're important details.

I also think bob13bob is full of **** and is outright lying about his experience with bikes. In some ways, he's worse than eb.


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

Haters gonna hate.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Harold said:


> god this thread again?
> 
> I will reiterate what I've said before. With any bike, you're getting EXACTLY what you're paying for. It's not my fault if you can't understand why that's the case. A $1500 bike is a price point bike. Everybody is going to be cutting corners somewhere. BD cuts more corners than many, because their prices are lower. It's not hard to figure out where those corners are cut.
> 
> ...


LOL, lately I'm kind of baffled by some of his comments, I don't even bother replying. Is his weird commentary not new? I feel like he used to give solid recommendations. Am I thinking of someone else?

Recently when someone asks about a $500 wheelset (or fork) he immediately recommends a 750-1000 Chinese carbon wheelset, ignoring most of the specifically requested details. Same thing in the hardtail threads, always recommending things that weren't specified. And he does it so adamantly that it sounds like he's on the payroll. Just weird.


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

fly4130 said:


> Buy what you want and ride what you bought, but the above statements just are not true. While I did not find any 3k XC hardtails with a SID from the big three, their closest models to 3k (all under) definitely did not have low end forks and Specialized most definitely lists components on their completes online.


you right, specialized did have the specs, didn't see them.

here's a $3100 specialized epic hardtail.. it comes with a judy gold. google it and some retailer describe it as entry level. i find that a bit harsh, but it's not high end. $300 fork, so more than $240 i claimed but not far off.

a mix of deore (m6100) and slx around the bike.
generic rims.
https://www.specialized.com/ca/en/epic-hardtail/p/184104?color=291526-184104&searchText=91321-7101

here's the competition. $2000
$2000 (carbon frame, sid, $$ sid air fork, nx eagle drivetrain, xt hyrd brakes, dt swiss wheelset) 
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products...nx-eagle-carbon-29er-boost-mountain-bikes.htm

it's higher end, 1/3 cheaper. not very close. to say so is either being disingenuous, or ignorant.


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

you guys got a real hard on for hating on BD. I don't just push BD, i push any brand that gives you the highest level components/dollar. 

uou guys think frame matters more, I know that it doesn't and i've provided data points. You will never see and world XCO pro race won on low end components. but there has been at least one instance a race was on a generic korean frame from a maker with very little experience (they were known for making archery bows). 

I don't love BD frames, it's the opposite. I know frames don't make much of a difference. I don't care where the bike is from, I care about who made the components. i'm mostly frame agnostic. In fact, the stinkers are usually teh bleeding edge stuff that specialized and trek are doing because they are working hte kinks out still. EG brain shocks and trek procalibers. procalibers are expensive, heavy for their travel, and performing poorly in pro XCO. 

if i debranded the bikes. A value bike will will win over lbs bike the vast majority of times at the same price point becaus higher end air fork or shaving 2-3 lbs is something any newbie can know within 5 min of riding. this is NOT subjective. 

I know it's more difficult to judge bikes individually instead of making overall arching statements like all BD is bad; but if you can't do that, you less qualified to give guidance to people.

the $2000 bike I posted is a perfect useable bike. it is not a frankenstein mix of components. BD used to have some of those bikes in the past (road cassetts on mtn bikes), I don't push bikes with improper components for peoples intended use.

do you have experience with riding and maintaining different tiers for components? 
Do you know why they put low end shifting and drivetrain components on high dollar gravity bikes? 
I don't believe you guys can't tell the difference between low end coil fork and air forks.


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

People with high dollar bikes who bash BD have to feel justified for their expensive purchases.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

bob13bob said:


> you guys think frame matters more, I know that it doesn't


Again, I couldn't disagree more. The frame is the foundation of any bike. It's where the fit, handling, and ride compliance come from. If the frame is wrong the whole bike is wrong no matter what components are on it.

Frame geometry is the number one thing I look for in a new bike. *It's the most important thing!* Everything else is bolted on and can easily be changed, you can't change bad ride compliance or wonky geometry.

You're making an argument as though someone who requires a XL frame could ride a medium and that's OK because the medium has nice components. It's a terrible argument, and you keep talking only about racing. Granted that's one genre where old school XC geometry still kind of works, maybe that's why you are specifically targeting that category?

I can't remember the last time someone I knew was in the market for a high end race bike and said "I'm going shopping on BD". That's never happened. Likewise I've never seen anyone on the podium at a local race with a Motobecane.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

bob13bob said:


> you right, specialized did have the specs, didn't see them.
> 
> here's a $3100 specialized epic hardtail.. it comes with a judy gold. google it and some retailer describe it as entry level. i find that a bit harsh, but it's not high end. $300 fork, so more than $240 i claimed but not far off.
> 
> ...


You actually proof why one shouldn't buy a BD bike once you go up to a specific level. That BD bike you linked, great components and maybe even great frame quality for the money. But the GEOMETRY makes this a really bad deal.

I can live with cheap brakes, drivetrain, tires etc. But it will be very hard to upgrade the geometry later.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

bob13bob said:


> it's higher end, 1/3 cheaper. not very close. to say so is either being disingenuous, or ignorant.


I specifically addressed two things: your fork statement and your specs statement. Now you are moving a goal post AND manipulating currencies. You linked the Canadian Specialized site. That bike lists for $2120 US Dollars, which is the currency for which your BD comparable is listed. Your quoted comment applies more to you than anyone else in this thread.

Again, I don't care one bit about which bike you or anyone thinks is the right one for their specific situation as long as you ride it once you own it. I do care about misleading facts and this pattern leads me to believe it is intentional.


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

bob13bob said:


> completely and demonstrably false. for the same money, you get much nicer and higher end parts on a value brand bike wheter it be BD and or CRC. People who actually know what they are talking about and have experience riding different tiers of bikes and components know this. the parts and components make a much bigger difference than the frame.
> 
> The better air fork alone makes a big difference in a how a bike handles.
> 
> did you know one the women's XCO races was won an a korean no name bike frame with very little frame building experience? she was unsponsored so rode a generic. Her parts, however were good parts.


I will agree that a Pike is a better upgrade over department store forks, but you gotta be careful, there are about a dozen different versions of Pikes on the market from the last 5 or 6 years. Just because it says "Pike" doesn't necessarily mean that its going to ride like a Pike Ultimate.

Looking at the parts spec and geo here - http://www.bikesdirect.com/products...-s12-pro-29er-enduro-mountain-bikes.htm#specs I honestly think thats a good price point for someone getting into the sport. Would I say thats it compares to a $4999 bike? No. Would I huck that bike off anything larger than a 1-2' drop? Never. Then again I am not the target market. If you are doing light XC riding a couple times a month, then this is a perfect bike with name brand parts without a lot of initial investment.


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

Stop being bike brand snobs. I have the 2019 version of this bike-

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products...s/hal-boost-eagle-ltd-29er-mountain-bikes.htm

I'm 6'-1/2" 250lbs & have hucked off drops, ridden a downhill bike park and taken it off big jumps, hammered it through rock gardens, and it's not failed me once.

Motobecane frames are made in the Kinesis factory.

From wikipedia:
"Brands also manufactured by Kinesis include Commencal, Diamondback Bicycles, Felt Bicycles, GT Bicycles, Haro, Ideal, Jamis, K2, Kona, Kross, Raleigh, Redline Bicycles, Santa Cruz Bicycles, Schwinn, Storck, Sunn, Titus Cycles, Torker, and Trek[SUP][4][/SUP] - as well as the brands marketed by the U.S. company Bikesdirect.com: Motobecane USA, Dawes USA, Cycles Mercier, Windsor America.[SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6]"

[/SUP]Most people who buy BD bikes are not at a pro racing level and many who buy brand name bikes aren't either. So a top tier expensive bike isn't really necessary. One degree of frame geometry here or there won't make as much difference as getting in better shape or honing your riding skills.

Another point is, without healthy competition in the marketplace- expensive brand name bikes would have a monopoly and only get more expensive. Shopping online is here to stay and that is evidenced by the proliferation of other brands such as Canyon, Polygon, YT, etc.

I only write this to help anyone considering buying a BD bike who might be dissuaded from buying one. I know, I was that person once. I spent an entire winter researching and investigating reviews, parts, grouppos, manufacturers, and geometries. If you are out there and considering buying a BD bike- I'm here as a happy customer to tell you they are good.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

metalskool said:


> Stop being bike brand snobs. I have the 2019 version of this bike-
> 
> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products...s/hal-boost-eagle-ltd-29er-mountain-bikes.htm
> 
> ...


How does the rear suspension work? Serious question if it bobs, squats etc. and are the pivots maintainable? Other than that, the geometry isn't too bad.

I agree the frame manufacturing quality is excellent. My Motobecane bike was made better than my mid level Giant bike. Also had better parts.

I say good geometry is even more important for a noob. Provides more confidence and less likely to crash. I upgraded from the Sturgis fatbike to RSD Mayor (frame/fork only) and now I ride much more and better (well, the bike rides better, I still suck). the Sturgis geometry wasn't worse than a Specialized fatbike (was even better), it was just like a commuter/snow bike and not trail oriented. Kind of my fault since the geometry was published and a the time i didn't know how trails are. .

Someone like Sam Pilgrim can ride a Walmart bike down Whistler. but a beginner wants a better bike.

So if the geo is suitable for the type of riding, a BD bike can be a good value. One has to overlook their marketing " compares to a a 3 times expensive bike". One really should cross-shop with other direct sellers.


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

HerrKaLeu said:


> How does the rear suspension work? Serious question if it bobs, squats etc. and are the pivots maintainable? Other than that, the geometry isn't too bad.
> 
> I agree the frame manufacturing quality is excellent. My Motobecane bike was made better than my mid level Giant bike. Also had better parts.
> 
> ...


The rear suspension pivot points are maintainable. I have disassembled the bike in winter. (when I switch over to my fatty) I usually give a shot of tri-flo or silicone spray to them before each ride when I lube the chain. I am to heavy for the shock but it's an entry level anyway. It performs actually very well regardless. I have to use the lock out when climbing unless it's over rocky/rough stuff. I did replace the stock shock upper bushing with a needle bearing from Real World Cycling. That seemed to make it more responsive to small bumps. Many clydesdales upgrade to a Manitou Mcleod.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

metalskool said:


> The rear suspension pivot points are maintainable. I have disassembled the bike in winter. (when I switch over to my fatty) *I usually give a shot of tri-flo or silicone spray to them before each ride when I lube the chain. *I am to heavy for the shock but it's an entry level anyway. It performs actually very well regardless. I have to use the lock out when climbing unless it's over rocky/rough stuff. I did replace the stock shock upper bushing with a needle bearing from Real World Cycling. That seemed to make it more responsive to small bumps. Many clydesdales upgrade to a Manitou Mcleod.


Are the pivots bushings? And you need to lubricate them that often?

I don't have FS experience, but thought they are sealed cartridge bearings, that don't need maintenance for long or are replaceable.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Kenisis absolutely does not manufacture the brands that bikes direct says they manufacture. BD is trying to sell it off like you're basically getting a kona or santa cruz at some wink wink nudge nudge deal. This is a gross misrepresentation. 

Toyota uses Denso parts now. Audi uses Denso parts now. What bikes direct is saying is that they'll sell you a 1994 Kia with a few denso parts, exactly like a 2021 audi! Its roughly and vaguely true, but wow is that some misleading BS.

I like BD. I've had many of them and I recently bought my wife one. Want a $300 road bike that actually works and has sora components? BD! There is no other option. You don't hit that price out of nowhere, its got some garbage on it (I have a garage full of spares, so this is perfect), but also literally no one sells a real road bike for $300. It was new in 2015 and its shockingly similar to a 2005, but again... $300. 

BD's new HAL bikes are decent bikes. It costs $2000 and you get $2000 worth of bike. You're not getting some insane impossible deal, its a legit $2000 bike. Compare it to a regular off the floor marin hawk hill 2, also $2000. BD gives you the lowest end pike at the cost of some really old wheels. Marin gives you a lower end fork and 29mm wheels. Its a wash.

My orbea was $1900 brand new, and it comes with an even lower end fork but a screamingly great frame. Price wise, its a wash. In reality I've already changed the fork, wheels, brakes anyway like I would do on any bike at this price, but I still have an incredible premium frame instead of a wobbly FSR catalogue frame.

I definitely steer people TO bikes direct and I'll continue to do so, but their best deals are in the 200-600 range where literally no other bikes exist.


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## rjfr (Aug 19, 2020)

All I can say is, glad I clicked on this thread for the literal lol at the Bikes Direct site. I could have built that site (in 1994)...and it actually looks a lot like one I did build back then...).

that's all!


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## BuffaloMtn (Nov 20, 2020)

Maybe someone could enlighten me as to where I could purchase a similar bike elsewhere for $1k, because I'm just not seeing it.

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products...omp-eagle-29-27plus-full-suspension-bikes.htm

SRAM Eagle 1x12 drivetrain, with SRAM derailleur, shifter, chain, and crankset; an internally routed and hydroformed frame with seat dropper, WTB tubeless compatible rims and tires with 148 boost thru-axle, in your choice of 27.5+ or 29, Suntour air fork and rear with lockout, and Shimano hydraulic brakes.

Now I know nothing about geometry, so someone will have to check that out for me.

It seems to pretty damn similar to this $2700 Trek, or am I way off?
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...top-fuel-7-sx/p/32984/?colorCode=orange_black


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

BuffaloMtn said:


> Maybe someone could enlighten me as to where I could purchase a similar bike elsewhere for $1k, because I'm just not seeing it.
> 
> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products...omp-eagle-29-27plus-full-suspension-bikes.htm
> 
> ...


This is all about the rear suspension mostly. The trek uses a well designed 4 bars suspension. The shock they buy will be custom tuned to the suspension kinematics. The BD is a single pivot and the shock they buy will hopefully be tuned to the suspension kinematics but it doesn't note that specifically. The effective length of their LEAPP suspension only transfer the load the suspension to the already stressed down tube to clear up room for shorter chainstays evidently but what is also does is lengthen the main part of the suspension meaning it will be more apt to suffer torsional stresses and will put more stress on the shock itself.

Single pivots while being compliant down hills are quite susceptible to braking forces under load and to acceleration forces meaning the suspension stops working under braking and under acceleration. They are less active. While there are certainly many single pivots that you can buy still you will see that many of them try to counter the flex of the swing arm with additional linkages at the shock and massive profiles (https://www.orangebikes.co.uk/bikes/stage-6-pro/2021) (https://konaworld.com/process_134_275.cfm). The orange is a single pivot bike with a massive swing arm for lateral support, the pivot is in line with the chain at the crank to prevent the acceleration influence on the rear wheel and swing arm. The kona is also a single pivot, similar pivot location, and added suspension elements to allow for stiffness and suspension kinematics to easier controlled.

It is one thing to compare the specs of a bike, BD can get great deals on parts, but it is another thing to compared the frames. BD buys simple designs, has current geometry added to them, puts on parts that are good deals and then sells them cheaply. Will you find a similarly speced $1000 bike? No. Will you find more expensive bike with the same spec? Obviously.

Which is the better deal? That is up to you to decide unfortunately. The BD bike will work great, has great components, has a great price, looks fine, and will probably be available someday, the more expensive bikes come with better performing suspension designs, proprietary tunes on the shocks, and accessible support from their companies, especially so with the Trek noted. If I had the money I would go with the Trek. If I didn't I might sway to a hard tail BD because once you ride a BD full suspension then jump on a designed suspension bike at a trail day or a friend's you might regret the suspension performance of the BD bike or a better hardtail (https://konaworld.com/honzo.cfm).

I started riding when single pivots were the only option. When Linkage bikes became a choice I realized how much compromise for trail riding the single pivot was producing. Once I switched to linkage I cleared a lot more things, started really ripping corners, and found the shocks so much easier to tune.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

rockcrusher said:


> _the $1K full-suspension bike from BD comes with nice parts but a crappy frame._


does that about sum it up?


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

BuffaloMtn said:


> Maybe someone could enlighten me as to where I could purchase a similar bike elsewhere for $1k, because I'm just not seeing it.
> 
> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products...omp-eagle-29-27plus-full-suspension-bikes.htm
> 
> ...


What you buy in a bike is the frame (and geometry) and suspension inc. fork. the rest are wear/fit items. And what BD offers here, is ... I can't use swear words.

The only "good" compoentns"arhe teh shimano brakes, tha tyou coudl use on a project bike (like a commuter, or hybrid), bt you may run into hose length issues. Those brakes may cost $50 the set.

all other components are basically garbage inc. SX drivetrain. No one will buy it used from you. Not sure about tires, but 27tpi is really bad.

So you pay $1000 for a set of $50 brakes and you may need to buy new hoses. and you dumpster will overflow from the rest, unless someone from Craigslist gives you $10.

I'm not bashing BD, they have their place. There is a reason FS bikes start at $2K, and those need a lot of upgrades.

This is an example where a HT, or a rigid bike are better.


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## talbotjt7 (Apr 26, 2021)

HerrKaLeu said:


> What you buy in a bike is the frame (and geometry) and suspension inc. fork. the rest are wear/fit items. And what BD offers here, is ... I can't use swear words.
> 
> The only "good" compoentns"arhe teh shimano brakes, tha tyou coudl use on a project bike (like a commuter, or hybrid), bt you may run into hose length issues. Those brakes may cost $50 the set.
> 
> ...


All,

I've bought a hard tail and a full suspension in the last two years. I am an ex state champion BMX racer and avid mtn biker in Montana. I'm still gapping 25ers and hitting BigSky as a local. The bikes are great. Pay the local bike shop for setup. Any goon here talking about geometry or blah blah blah is a dork.


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## bigpedaler (Jan 29, 2007)

Harold said:


> Keep in mind that their bikes are nothing like what the crazy marketing mumbo jumbo claims they are.
> 
> I personally recommend against bikes direct simply because of their marketing BS. Some of what they say is vaguely deceptive, but sometimes they outright lie. Plus their website looks like it was built on the geocities platform in 1994.
> 
> But taken for their spec lists alone, they're fine. Just not worth any more than what you actually spend. And no, they don't hold value. There are other direct-to-consumer brands that hold their value much better, avoid the shady marketing, and simply offer better bikes. You'll usually pay more for them, but you DO get what you pay for most of the time.


Spoken like someone who never rode one.

I bought one for my daughter a decade ago, she rode it hard, and just this year handed it back. It's an e-bike now, for me.

They don't NEED to hold resale value.


Runfox said:


> Thanks for the help all, I have been looking at used bikes, 95% are mongoose junk, occasionally a decent giant , trek or specialized, and these want top dollar for, the only ones I have seen under 1k are the 2002/ 2004 old FS bikes, just not having any luck with used, and so many sizes other than a medium size frame I want, that’s why I was looking at bikes direct, they are affordable, and new not 13 years old


You've been misled.

Bikes direct is just fine. It's just not "designer label", so most here equates that to junk.

I made an e-bike for myself 
out of the one my daughter rode for a decade.


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

Im looking through a few on the BD site and it looks like just lower end parts across the board to hit the price points. Im just happy that people are happy riding bikes.


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

Haters gonna hate. I love my bike and it's all high end components except the wheels which I replaced anyway. Looking to buy another Moto soon.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Thustlewhumber said:


> Im looking through a few on the BD site and it looks like just lower end parts across the board to hit the price points. Im just happy that people are happy riding bikes.


Be prepared to be served up lots of BD ads for awhile!


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## matthepanther (Jun 7, 2016)

With brands like polygon and Marin serving up respectable bikes for only a few hundred more, I don't get why this Convo is relevant anymore. 1900$ get yourself a modern geo sisku t7 respectable frame dropper and bike with a warranty. Those BD bikes are 3-5 years outdated; anyone saying the geo doesn't matter hasn't ridden one; the modern bikes are more capable, thus safer. Hardtail and commuter bike sure go BD but no reason to buy a fully with the options available in 2022


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