# Rob Warner’s take on ebikes



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

He pretty much sums up why I love ebikes and I'm sure most others on this ebike sub-forum as well!

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## sooslow (Dec 14, 2017)

Meh...I still like going uphill...


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

sooslow said:


> Meh...I still like going uphill...


why?? climbing is a necessary evil.

If you just like to peddle become a road rider.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

Rob definitely fits the stereotype 

Not sure if this was supposed to be a joke but it had me laughing


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

KenPsz said:


> why?? climbing is a necessary evil.
> 
> If you just like to peddle become a road rider.


If you don't like to pedal, why not just ride an e-moto?


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> If you don't like to pedal, why not just ride an e-moto?


I like mountain bikes, been riding them for 25+ years, just not climbing, peddling downhill is fun though. Plus motos are expensive and I don't want to spend that kind of cash along with the need to drive 2 hrs to ride one.

If you (royal you) like discomfort so much just be a road rider don't demand mountain biking should be like road riding. That was kind of the whole point when mountain biking started it was not road riding and the attitudes of "embrace the suck" that group has. But over the years it does seem that road riding attitudes have creeped into mountain biking and not for the better.

That video reminds me of what mountain biking was like in the late 90's where the idea was fun and cool tech, not the "embrace the suck" attitude.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> I like mountain bikes, been riding them for 25+ years, just not climbing, peddling downhill is fun though. Plus motos are expensive and I don't want to spend that kind of cash along with the need to drive 2 hrs to ride one.
> 
> If you (royal you) like discomfort so much just be a road rider don't demand mountain biking should be like road riding. That was kind of the whole point when mountain biking started it was not road riding and the attitudes of "embrace the suck" that group has. But over the years it does seem that road riding attitudes have creeped into mountain biking and not for the better.
> 
> That video reminds me of what mountain biking was like in the late 90's where the idea was fun and cool tech, not the "embrace the suck" attitude.


That's pretty much where I fit in. I've always liked riding mountain bikes, but I can't say I ever enjoyed climbing. I didn't mind them so much, but never got any satisfaction out of pedaling up a hill or mountain. It's always been, to me, just something I wanted to do as quickly and easily as possible so that I could get to the top of the hill with enough energy left for a fun and fast trip back down.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> If you (royal you) like discomfort so much just be a road rider don't demand mountain biking should be like road riding. That was kind of the whole point when mountain biking started it was not road riding and the attitudes of "embrace the suck" that group has. But over the years it does seem that road riding attitudes have creeped into mountain biking and not for the better.


Why so close minded? Different people ride for different reasons.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Why so close minded? Different people ride for different reasons.


Why do you feel my comment is any more "close minded" than others that say if you want electric assist to climb, since you don't want to embrace the suck or earn your climbs, just ride e-motos? Different people enjoy different parts of the ride correct?

I'm not telling anyone how they should ride but others sure seem to want to tell others how they should. If people want to have a road rider attitude then I will just suggest they be a road rider, that is no different than those folks saying anyone that wants/uses a e-bike to just be a e-moto rider.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> Why do you feel my comment is any more "close minded" than others that say if you want electric assist to climb, since you don't want to embrace the suck or earn your climbs, just ride e-motos? Different people enjoy different parts of the ride correct?


I never said any of that. 2 wrongs doesn't make one right. Enjoy riding however you like but disparaging "roadies" puts you in the same camp the people you're complaining about.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> I never said any of that. 2 wrongs doesn't make one right. Enjoy riding however you like but disparaging "roadies" puts you in the same camp the people you're complaining about.


I am not disparaging "roadies" but I do know calling a mountain biker a roadie is an insult. Roadies definitely "embrace the suck" which is why I have zero interest in being roadie, I am impressed by anyone that can sit in a saddle for 100 miles. Yet many in mountain biking, when it comes to e-bikes, sound like roadies.

Again that video reminds me of the 90's in mountain biking where it was about fun and technology, I am not sure why that is such a problem today.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> I am not disparaging "roadies" but I do know calling a mountain biker a roadie is an insult.


You're wrong. Nearly everyone I know who rides road bikes also likes riding mountain bikes, and lots of mountain bikers "embrace the suck" and then shred the downhills.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

KenPsz said:


> I am not disparaging "roadies" but I do know calling a mountain biker a roadie is an insult. Roadies definitely "embrace the suck" which is why I have zero interest in being roadie, I am impressed by anyone that can sit in a saddle for 100 miles. Yet many in mountain biking, when it comes to e-bikes, sound like roadies.
> 
> Again that video reminds me of the 90's in mountain biking where it was about fun and technology, I am not sure why that is such a problem today.


Us gravel riders enjoy the suck, too. It's a part of the endurance and strength component of gravel racing.

I have a feeling this thread will be locked down at some point.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

sooslow said:


> Meh...I still like going uphill...


Um, they aren't mutually exclusive. I ride 300 miles a month, 70% of those miles "the old fashioned way". And even on my eMTB, i tend to pedal pretty hard up climbs - I just go a bit faster and get to the good stuff more quickly...


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> You're wrong. Nearly everyone I know who rides road bikes also likes riding mountain bikes, and lots of mountain bikers "embrace the suck" and then shred the downhills.


I'm not wrong where I live, so can I say you're wrong? There is a big distinction around here between road riders and mountain bikers not many cross over.

Yes I know many mountain bikers "embrace the suck" they post here telling e-bikers to just ride motos or e-motos. I notice you don't ask why they are so close minded.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> That video reminds me of what mountain biking was like in the late 90's where the idea was fun and cool tech, not the "embrace the suck" attitude.


I don't recall a lot of motorized bikes in the 90s.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

It wouldn't be mtb-ing if there was no challenge. Try climbing a little hill. Feel your leg muscles, cardio-pulmonary effort, go up. If you just do that 4-5 days a week, pretty soon that hill won't be a challenge anymore. Then find a steeper hill, repeat the process from step 1. You'll become stronger You'll have leg muscles to look at! your cardio health will soar! 
Mountain bikers used to look at shuttlers as weak, in body and /or mind. That's how I see e-bikers, and I'm 66 years old. But strong!
Maybe when I'm 70 or so I'll revisit this idea, but not until then.


Oh....and being strong and cardio-fit really helps your immune system to survive the coming plague!


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Calling mountain bikers who like to climb (as well as descend) "roadies" is stupid. I'm not calling you stupid, just calling the disparagement stupid.



Also, many people spell pedaling wrong. Not trying to be a grammar nazi, but it bugs the **** out of me.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> I don't recall a lot of motorized bikes in the 90s.


I don't recall a lot of elitist attitude in the 90s either. "Ride what ya brung", then share a beer. Now we're subdividing the tribe. People on eMTBs are after the same buzz, and I don't think it's cool to exclude them. We were all noobs on trails once.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Radium said:


> It wouldn't be mtb-ing if there was no challenge. Try climbing a little hill. Feel your leg muscles, cardio-pulmonary effort, go up. *If you just do that 4-5 days a week*, pretty soon that hill won't be a challenge anymore. Then find a steeper hill, repeat the process from step 1. You'll become stronger You'll have leg muscles to look at! your cardio health will soar!
> Mountain bikers used to look at shuttlers as weak, in body and /or mind. That's how I see e-bikers, and I'm 66 years old. But strong!
> Maybe when I'm 70 or so I'll revisit this idea, but not until then.
> 
> Oh....and being strong and cardio-fit really helps your immune system to survive the coming plague!


Hahahahahaha!!! That's funny right there.

People like me, and I'm sure there are plenty of us, are lucky to get enough free time to seriously ride once a week (usually a Saturday or Sunday). Better hope it's not raining and the trails are open every weekend if you want to even hit 4-5 rides in a month.

Factor in weather, work, family, kids, chores, etc., and we're lucky to average 2 rides a month for 10 months out of the year (might as well write off January and February here). Good luck getting in super great mountain biking shape averaging 20 rides in a year's time.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Crankout said:


> Us gravel riders enjoy the suck, too. It's a part of the endurance and strength component of gravel racing.
> 
> I have a feeling this thread will be locked down at some point.


If you enjoy that part of riding have at it but please don't suggest that others that don't like that component should be doing something else.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Radium said:


> It wouldn't be mtb-ing if there was no challenge. Try climbing a little hill. Feel your leg muscles, cardio-pulmonary effort, go up. If you just do that 4-5 days a week, pretty soon that hill won't be a challenge anymore. Then find a steeper hill, repeat the process from step 1. You'll become stronger You'll have leg muscles to look at! your cardio health will soar!
> Mountain bikers used to look at shuttlers as weak, in body and /or mind. That's how I see e-bikers, and I'm 66 years old. But strong!
> Maybe when I'm 70 or so I'll revisit this idea, but not until then.
> 
> Oh....and being strong and cardio-fit really helps your immune system to survive the coming plague!


Stealing J.B. Weld's comment:

Why so close minded? Different people ride for different reasons.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Crankout said:


> I have a feeling this thread will be locked down at some point.


Not yet but I am now subscribed to it for updates.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

RickBullottaPA said:


> I don't recall a lot of elitist attitude in the 90s either. "Ride what ya brung", then share a beer. Now we're subdividing the tribe. People on eMTBs are after the same buzz, and I don't think it's cool to exclude them. We were all noobs on trails once.


This has been my point since i started posting in this forum.

The video very much is like the old mountain bike shows that were on channels like outdoor life. Mountain biking was about fun, enjoyment and tech with the benefit of getting in better shape.

I guess times and attitudes change.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RickBullottaPA said:


> I don't recall a lot of elitist attitude in the 90s either. "Ride what ya brung", then share a beer. Now we're subdividing the tribe. People on eMTBs are after the same buzz, and I don't think it's cool to exclude them. We were all noobs on trails once.


No elitist attitude here; I just don't consider e-bikes to be mountain bikes.

I have no problem sharing trails, riding or drinking beer with e-bikers, same as I do and have done with all sorts of other trail users countless times in the past.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> This has been my point since i started posting in this forum.
> 
> The video very much is like the old mountain bike shows that were on channels like outdoor life. Mountain biking was about fun, enjoyment and tech with the benefit of getting in better shape.
> 
> I guess times and attitudes change.


It's never been all that much about technology for many of us.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Radium said:


> Mountain bikers used to look at shuttlers as weak, in body and /or mind.


That was mainly just the douchey ones who were also clueless as to how the sport actually developed. Luckily a dying breed.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

KenPsz said:


> why?? climbing is a necessary evil.
> 
> If you just like to peddle become a road rider.


You clearly don't like the sport of mountain biking. I'm glad you now have an alternative to mountain biking: Mountain mopeding.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> You clearly don't like the sport of mountain biking.


Newsflash: lots of mountain bikers don't love climbing.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slimat99 said:


> You clearly don't like the sport of mountain biking. I'm glad you now have an alternative to mountain biking: Mountain mopeding.


Stealing J.B. Weld's comment:

Why so close minded? Different people ride for different reasons.

I would have an alternative if someone would just give me the 5K I need to buy what I want. Until then I have to slum it with the close minded analog bikers.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Sparticus said:


> So much wrong in so few words.
> 
> First: "why?"
> Because riding a bicycle - a non-electric bicycle (which shouldn't require clarification since ebikes aren't bicycles) is fun for many people.
> ...


Yet like J.B. Weld I don't see you calling out others that are close minded about e-bikes, why is that?

I'm not telling others how they should ride just making a suggestion since many seem to have no problems telling e-bikers how should be riding or what they should be considered.

So in summary:
You're a kettle calling the pot black.

(I did spell everything correctly?)


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Going up, and down is fast.

I don't mean this in an elitist way but if you don't like pedaling, a Dirt Bike will give you a LOT more of the stuff you crave. They aren't any more expensive than an E-bike. In fact like for like a dirt bike is much cheaper. You don't have to be a track rider, you can trail ride. 
To top it off, here in TX, E-bikes are fully classified as motorcycles and therefore you are legally limited to the exact same trails as dirt bikes anyways. I acknowledge that e-bikes are being illegally ridden on local trails often, and getting away with it because they are silent and look like bicycles.

I dream of an e-bike because I want to go faster everywhere, but would still pedal just as hard.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

RickBullottaPA said:


> I don't recall a lot of elitist attitude in the 90s either. "Ride what ya brung", then share a beer. Now we're subdividing the tribe. People on eMTBs are after the same buzz, and I don't think it's cool to exclude them. We were all noobs on trails once.


Ebikes are not mountain bikes. They aren't apart of the sport. It would only be exclusion if Ebikes were mountain bikes.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Suns_PSD said:


> Going up, and down is fast.
> 
> I don't mean this in an elitist way but if you don't like pedaling, a Dirt Bike will give you a LOT more of the stuff you crave. They aren't any more expensive than an E-bike. In fact like for like a dirt bike is much cheaper. You don't have to be a track rider, you can trail ride.
> To top it off, here in TX, E-bikes are fully classified as motorcycles and therefore you are legally limited to the exact same trails as dirt bikes anyways. I acknowledge that e-bikes are being illegally ridden on local trails often, and getting away with it because they are silent and look like bicycles.
> ...


The only people claiming some don't like to pedal seems to be those that don't like e-bikes. I have yet to see someone that likes e-bikes say they don't want to pedal just that they want assistance going up hill.

I made sure to use the correct spelling of pedal thank you mlx john for pointing that mistake out in a constructive way.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

KenPsz said:


> Yet like J.B. Weld I don't see you calling out others that are close minded about e-bikes, why is that?


Because I'm not close minded about ebikes. In fact I'm looking forward to owning one someday. I simply understand, as some don't, that an ebike is not a bicycle.

To illustrate this point I'll explain that I'm an off-road motorcyclist, aka a "dirt biker." Do I think that off-road motorcycles are mountain bikes? No. Does this mean that off-road motorcycles are inherently bad? No.

And so it is with ebikes. The sport of ebiking is done on an ebike. The sport of bicycling is done on a bicycle. Ebikes are fine, but they're not bicycles.

I don't confuse these two disparate sports.



KenPsz said:


> I'm not telling others how they should ride


Yes you did. That's exactly what you did.

In before the bin.
=sParty


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Newsflash: lots of mountain bikers don't love climbing.


You don't have to love it to accept it as part of the sport. When a motor is used to remove the 100% human powered element of mountain biking it's no longer mountain biking. Even straight DH/Park involves 100% human powered sprinting. If you want a motor, you don't like the sport of mountain biking. I get it, it's a hard sport, it's not for everyone. Now you have an alternative sport so you don't have to deal with the necessary evils of mountain biking.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

KenPsz said:


> Stealing J.B. Weld's comment:
> 
> Why so close minded? Different people ride for different reasons.
> 
> I would have an alternative if someone would just give me the 5K I need to buy what I want. Until then I have to slum it with the close minded analog bikers.


If I'm closed minded because I'm excluding motorized bikes from the sport of mountain biking then so be it. Ebikes are not mountain bikes. They are their own thing, completely separate from the sport of MTB.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> I notice you don't ask why they are so close minded.


Actually I have.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Radium said:


> It wouldn't be mtb-ing if there was no challenge. Try climbing a little hill. Feel your leg muscles, cardio-pulmonary effort, go up. If you just do that 4-5 days a week, pretty soon that hill won't be a challenge anymore. Then find a steeper hill, repeat the process from step 1. You'll become stronger You'll have leg muscles to look at! your cardio health will soar!
> Mountain bikers used to look at shuttlers as weak, in body and /or mind. That's how I see e-bikers, and I'm 66 years old. But strong!
> Maybe when I'm 70 or so I'll revisit this idea, but not until then.
> 
> Oh....and being strong and cardio-fit really helps your immune system to survive the coming plague!


You will get more fit and stronger in an e bike, because

1, you will ride 50 percent more hours a week

2. You will ride a lot more downhill

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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> Going up, and down is fast.
> 
> I don't mean this in an elitist way but if you don't like pedaling, a Dirt Bike will give you a LOT more of the stuff you crave. They aren't any more expensive than an E-bike. In fact like for like a dirt bike is much cheaper. You don't have to be a track rider, you can trail ride.
> To top it off, here in TX, E-bikes are fully classified as motorcycles and therefore you are legally limited to the exact same trails as dirt bikes anyways. I acknowledge that e-bikes are being illegally ridden on local trails often, and getting away with it because they are silent and look like bicycles.
> ...


Not that simple. In much of the country, dirt bike trail access is far, far less than mountain bike trail access. Here in eastern Pennsylvania that's the case. I have to drive 90 minutes to get to the areas I dirt bike. I can eMTB 7 minutes from my house.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

slimat99 said:


> If I'm closed minded because I'm excluding motorized bikes from the sport of mountain biking then so be it. Ebikes are not mountain bikes. They are their own thing, completely separate from the sport of MTB.


Your line of reasoning then suggests that we should ban suspension (real mountain bikers like the discomfort and poor handling of a rigid bike), carbon fiber (real mountain bikers like grinding a 55 lb bike up the hill), disc brakes (real mountain bikers have strong hands and don't need ***** stuff like disc brakes), and on and on and on....


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Your line of reasoning then suggests that we should ban suspension (real mountain bikers like the discomfort and poor handling of a rigid bike), carbon fiber (real mountain bikers like grinding a 55 lb bike up the hill), disc brakes (real mountain bikers have strong hands and don't need ***** stuff like disc brakes), and on and on and on....


Don't be purposefully obtuse.

The motor is the difference and we all know it.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> You don't have to love it to accept it as part of the sport.


No kidding. But you clearly CAN look on it as a necessary evil and still like mountain biking, a fact which you seemed to take exception to in post #29.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Actually I have.


Not on this thread you have not.

I'm just pointing out that there is an inconsistency.

But I do appreciate what you posted since I have been reusing it.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Your line of reasoning then suggests that we should ban suspension (real mountain bikers like the discomfort and poor handling of a rigid bike), carbon fiber (real mountain bikers like grinding a 55 lb bike up the hill), disc brakes (real mountain bikers have strong hands and don't need ***** stuff like disc brakes), and on and on and on....


Let's keep our eye on the ball here. And the ball in this case is the motor. Period. It's what separates ebikes and bicycles.

Neither the ebike nor the bicycle is bad. The motor is what distinguishes them.
=sParty


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

KenPsz said:


> I am not disparaging "roadies" but I do know calling a mountain biker a roadie is an insult. Roadies definitely "embrace the suck" which is why I have zero interest in being roadie, I am impressed by anyone that can sit in a saddle for 100 miles. Yet many in mountain biking, when it comes to e-bikes, sound like roadies.
> 
> Again that video reminds me of the 90's in mountain biking where it was about fun and technology, I am not sure why that is such a problem today.


I am a mountain biker, but I love me some 250 mile+ TT bike hauls riding a loop around Lake Champlain....no ferries.

for the pain and salt-faced misery first, cow pies second.

On MTB, if I am not on a climb, I feel like a putz. If on a climb, the harder, the more technical, the more brutal..the better. no moto.

and, am about 100 years old, so already know won't be looking for an e-bike-anything when I get there....human power only till I croak.

e-bikes for those who want to use them fine with me....old codgers like myself, bring on the pain, it's the only way I know I'm alive.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rod9301 said:


> You will get more fit and stronger in an e bike, because
> 
> 1, you will ride 50 percent more hours a week


You might. Like a lot of people my riding time is determined by how much I feel like riding and available free time.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> But I do appreciate what you posted since I have been reusing it.


Then you should live it. Don't be a hypocrite.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Don't be purposefully obtuse.
> 
> The motor is the difference and we all know it.


I understand. But the abstraction isn't that extreme.

<sarcasm>You're telling me that modern full suspension bikes with disc brakes don't allow those crazy hooligans in baggies and moto jerseys to rip down descents as speeds that weren't remotely possible on rigid bikes? They go flying by the poor folks on clunkers and scare them to death. They should be banned. And they skid on the trails. And kill chipmunks under their meaty 2.6" tires.</sarcasm>

For the record, I like ripping down descents fast...and up climbs fast too.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

127.0.0.1 said:


> I am a mountain biker, but I love me some 250 mile+ TT bike hauls riding a loop around Lake Champlain....no ferries.
> 
> for the pain and salt-faced misery first, cow pies second.
> 
> ...


I guess good for you?!?

I personally don't understand why anyone enjoys any of that, I also would never want to restrict your access to do those things.

But then I have hobbies that i am sure many would not understand why I do them so there is that.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RickBullottaPA said:


> I understand.


Good, I would hope so.

For the record, I like motors. But bicycles don't have them.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> No elitist attitude here; I just don't consider e-bikes to be mountain bikes.
> 
> I have no problem sharing trails, riding or drinking beer with e-bikers, same as I do and have done with all sorts of other trail users countless times in the past.


For the record, I would happily and gladly ride, drink and hang with you as well. ;-)

Debate and discourse is important to learning and to reaching compromise. It's unfortunately a rare thing these days. And I'm guilty of getting sucked into the fray too often.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Then you should live it. Don't be a hypocrite.


You can only be told "go ride a moto", "you're not a real mountain biker" blah blah blah so much before you just get tired of it and give what you get.

I'm not the one trying to restrict anyone's access to trails or telling people how a "real mountain biker" should be.

I'm like the guy in the video I just want to have fun and to me that is making the climbs as painless as possible but that does seem to be a crime to others.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> "you're not a real mountain biker"


What's wrong with just being a proud e-biker? 
Why are so many e-bikers all hung up demanding everyone think of them as mountain bikers?

If someone says 'you're not a real mountain biker', just say 'no ****, I'm an e-biker' and move on. BFD.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Not planning on closing this thread anytime soon. But I will delete post that are off topic or those that insult others.

On that note, I do believe there is something called ebike derangement syndrome! For whatever reason you almost always have the same people against ebikes manage to express their opinion in the ebike forum. Trust me when I say this we get it, you don't like ebikes, but you don't have to argue over and over the same message. You know who you are!

I don't get: gravel bikes, single speeds, fat bikes, etc.... But you won't see me going into those sub-forums and giving my opinion for many reasons!

This was post on a reason why people find ebikes so much fun, period! Rob, happen to hit the nail on the head in regards to why I enjoy ebikes so much and I'm sure many others feel the same way. I don't need an ebike to ride!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RickBullottaPA said:


> For the record, I would happily and gladly ride, drink and hang with you as well. ;-)


Cheers to that!


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> What's wrong with just being a proud e-biker?
> Why are so many e-bikers all hung up demanding everyone think of them as mountain bikers?
> 
> If someone says 'you're not a real mountain biker', just say 'no ****, I'm an e-biker' and move on. BFD.


Sorry but back handed insults are insults, in the real world you're correct it does not matter. Forums are not the real world.

Heck people seem to be getting all upset about my usage of roadie.

I really just don't get the issue with having fun riding in the woods even in the bike has an electric motor. People enjoy it on single speeds (I don't get that but I don't want to stop it). People still seem to like old 26 XC bikes I can kind of understand that but I don't want to do it. The examples go on and on, but e-bikes seem to bring out a particular dislike that mirrors hiker and horse rider attitudes and takes away from the fun.


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

sooslow said:


> Meh...I still like going uphill...


I love going uphill as well. I love it even more on my eBike because I get to do even more of it. You can work as hard as you want on an eBike so it is total BS about not getting a workout.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Sorry but back handed insults are insults, in the real world you're correct it does not matter. Forums are not the real world.


Maybe time to take ownership of it.

There's always going to be a wanna-be elitist, 'exercise uber alles' contingent out there (just like there's always gonna be a bunch of people who think the sport is mainly about shopping for stuff).

Those people have no idea what they're talking about; screw 'em. :thumbsup:


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> Maybe time to take ownership of it.
> 
> There's always going to be a wanna-be elitist, 'exercise uber alles' contingent out there (just like there's always gonna be a bunch of people who think the sport is mainly about shopping for stuff).
> 
> Those people have no idea what they're talking about; screw 'em. :thumbsup:


Very true!

Something I do in the real world, I guess I should do it more online as well.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

I see the climbs as integral to what mountain biking is. Hop on your bike and ride up the hills and then ride down the hills. It is work and effort. I have never liked the cheap thrills of shuttling or chairlift riding. Most e-bikes are an extension of that mindset. Most of them do alot to remove the pain of climbing, but at the price of big heavy beast on the way down. I have ridden on trails with these 48-50lbs sleds along side my normal bike and on the downs they are a liability. 

The only e-bike that has created any interest for me is the Levo SL. This due to concept behind it. That concept is not one where you can't soft pedal every climb, but one where you still have to work on the climbs. Based on the power gains and cadence required you still have to pedal hard, but it more of "fitness boost" than "shuttle" machine. Now maybe you can stay with the "fit" guys on the climbs rather than getting dropped. Then on the way down you have 10lbs less bike to man handle so it keeps the feeling fun. 

To me that is the sweet spot for e-bikes. Enough power to make a weekend rider able to stay with a 4-5 times a week rider on climbs and not so heavy to make the downhills cumbersome. Also keeping the bikes to 35-40lbs max means less wear on parts as the bikes are still in the range of what most components were design for from the start.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

JoePAz said:


> I see the climbs as integral to what mountain biking is. Hop on your bike and ride up the hills and then ride down the hills. It is work and effort. I have never liked the cheap thrills of shuttling or chairlift riding. Most e-bikes are an extension of that mindset. Most of them do alot to remove the pain of climbing, but at the price of big heavy beast on the way down. I have ridden on trails with these 48-50lbs sleds along side my normal bike and on the downs they are a liability.
> 
> The only e-bike that has created any interest for me is the Levo SL. This due to concept behind it. That concept is not one where you can soft pedal every climb, but one where you still have to work on the climbs. Based on the power gains and cadence required you still have to pedal hard, but it more of "fitness boost" than "shuttle" machine. Now maybe you can stay with the "fit" guys on the climbs rather than getting dropped. Then on the way down you have 10lbs less bike to man handle so it keeps the feeling fun.
> 
> To me that is the sweet spot for e-bikes. Enough power to make a weekend rider able to stay with a 4-5 times a week rider on climbs and not so heavy to make the downhills cumbersome. Also keeping the bikes to 35-40lbs max means less wear on parts as the bikes are still in the range of what most components were design for from the start.


I ride a fat bike that is in that weight range (35-40) already, not everyone wants or can ride a sub-30's setup.

Being what most would consider a clydesdale your weight limits would never be practical for me. Pedaling and additional 10-15lbs is not that hard for me. We are all not the mythical 150lb mountain biker


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

The next big evolution in mountain biking will be virtual mountain biking, VR glasses and a VR handlebar.

Why get dirty, or wet or tired? Why sweat? 

It will be for mountain bikers who don't like climbing, or sitting on a bike, or straddling a bike, or transporting a bike,or pedaling uphill, or downhill, or pedaling at all.

It will be for mountain bikers who don't like dabs, or get offs, or crashes.

It will be for mountain bikers who are 10 pounds overweight, or 50 pounds overweight, or 500 lbs overweight.

It will be for mountain bikers who want to have a beer with all their virtual mountain biking buddies after a ride. But why bother with the trouble of drinking a beer? Just inject a little alcohol into the I.V. that is permanently placed in a vein in my neck.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> I ride a fat bike that is in that weight range (35-40) already, not everyone wants or can ride a sub-30's setup.
> 
> Being what most would consider a clydesdale your weight limits would never be practical for me. Pedaling and additional 10-15lbs is not that hard for me. We are all not the mythical 150lb mountain biker


I am not a 150lbs mountain biker, but I know plenty guys in 145-180lbs range. Also I consider 30lbs to be a heavy bike. My Ripmo is 30lbs and heavy. It still rides well and is reasonable for 160mm/145 mm travel bike, but compared to my 23lbs FS XC bike and 21lbs SS, 30lbs is is heavy. It is really amazing how much nicer climbing is on a sub a 25lbs bike. I did a bike packing trip on a 24lbs geared HT. That was 24lbs before bags and so it was 45lbs easily with gear. The climbs were so much harder with all that weight and the downhills were tougher too. But at least I had camping gear with me and not every ride I do is like that.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Your line of reasoning then suggests that we should ban suspension (real mountain bikers like the discomfort and poor handling of a rigid bike), carbon fiber (real mountain bikers like grinding a 55 lb bike up the hill), disc brakes (real mountain bikers have strong hands and don't need ***** stuff like disc brakes), and on and on and on....


No, just motors. Mountain bikes don't have motors period. What is it that you don't understand about that?


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

I have no issue with ebikes. Just ride them on trails built by ebikers, for ebikers.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mudguard said:


> I have no issue with ebikes. Just ride them on trails built by ebikers, for ebikers.


I build trails and have no problem with sharing them with e-bikes.

In general, I would prefer the 'no dig, no ride' rule is enforced regardless of vehicle choice. No shortage of mtbers who never do jack **** but somehow feel that they're entitled to make the rules. I'll choose e-bikers / moto riders who pitch in over mountain bikers who just ***** any day of the week.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

RickBullottaPA said:


> I understand. But the abstraction isn't that extreme.
> 
> <sarcasm>You're telling me that modern full suspension bikes with disc brakes don't allow those crazy hooligans in baggies and moto jerseys to rip down descents as speeds that weren't remotely possible on rigid bikes? They go flying by the poor folks on clunkers and scare them to death. They should be banned. And they skid on the trails. And kill chipmunks under their meaty 2.6" tires.</sarcasm>
> 
> For the record, I like ripping down descents fast...and up climbs fast too.


Well you bring up something that's really important. The sport of MTB has blown up over the years, and today's bikes are faster. This has created issues in many places. Now we are adding motors. Trail access is at risk yet E-bike proponents refuse to acknowledge this for selfish reasons. I get it, you want to ride just like mountain bikers, but let's face facts. Adding motors to bikes that already scare the hell out of other user groups because of how fast they can go is asking for trouble. They need to be separated from mountain bikes and only used on motorized trails. Motors change the game unlike all the advancements that have created faster but still 100% human powered bikes.


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## Vin829 (Mar 29, 2019)

I have 4 bikes...one of which is an ebike (Levo SL) so because i own one I am no longer a real mountain biker? I beg to differ. Ive won many XC races and finished BCBR twice. Ebikes are fun. When i want to train i jump on my analog bike. One of the places i ride has over 200+ miles of trails yet they are very steep and very rugged. I’m talking 2+ mile climbs at 15%. Climbs i used to have to walk I can now cruise up. My hike-a-bike days are over.I can finish a 4 hour ride with an average heart rate in the 140s yet have way more fun. 
BTW i was like a lot of these haters in this thread. I despised ebikes. To the point where I wouldn’t even acknowledge them. Then I rented one for the day and my mind was changed. I get just as good of a workout on an ebike. But I will never give up my analog bikes either...its a different kind of suffering and fun. So all you haters out there i know how you feel. I was you. But man was I wrong


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

Isn't this thread about Rob Warner?


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> You might. Like a lot of people my riding time is determined by how much I feel like riding and available free time.


Ok, so no matter how much you can ride, what's wrong with twice the downhill?

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Train Wreck said:


> Isn't this thread about Rob Warner?


I think your username sums up this thread!
Perhaps ebike trails should be exploiting the motors. Make the climbs impossible to ride on an acoustic bike.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

Mudguard said:


> I think your username sums up this thread!


Very flattering. Thank you!


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

i love ebikes. i prefer to spend an abundance of my time digging on trails and doing general maintenance, rather than riding up them....


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Vin829 said:


> I have 4 bikes...one of which is an ebike (Levo SL) so because i own one I am no longer a real mountain biker? I beg to differ. Ive won many XC races and finished BCBR twice. Ebikes are fun. When i want to train i jump on my analog bike. One of the places i ride has over 200+ miles of trails yet they are very steep and very rugged. I'm talking 2+ mile climbs at 15%. Climbs i used to have to walk I can now cruise up. My hike-a-bike days are over.I can finish a 4 hour ride with an average heart rate in the 140s yet have way more fun.
> BTW i was like a lot of these haters in this thread. I despised ebikes. To the point where I wouldn't even acknowledge them. Then I rented one for the day and my mind was changed. I get just as good of a workout on an ebike. But I will never give up my analog bikes either...its a different kind of suffering and fun. So all you haters out there i know how you feel. I was you. But man was I wrong


You are not a mountain biker when you are riding your Ebike. Why is that hard to understand? You can't ride your Ebike where you can your mountain bike. You can't enter your Ebike in the mountain bike races you've done. They are different enough to be separated by trail use and racing, so why would we call someone riding an Ebike a mountain biker?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rod9301 said:


> Ok, so no matter how much you can ride, what's wrong with twice the downhill?


Nothing, but for myself that involves twice the uphill, which is fine by me. I love cycling, the whole package. Not saying those who don't are wrong.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slimat99 said:


> You are not a mountain biker when you are riding your Ebike. Why is that hard to understand? You can't ride your Ebike where you can your mountain bike.


In many places you can ride an ebike where mtb's are allowed, and in my book someone riding an ebike on a mtb trail is mountain biking, though they aren't riding a bicycle.

^See that KenPsz?


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## Vin829 (Mar 29, 2019)

slimat99 said:


> You are not a mountain biker when you are riding your Ebike. Why is that hard to understand? You can't ride your Ebike where you can your mountain bike. You can't enter your Ebike in the mountain bike races you've done. They are different enough to be separated by trail use and racing, so why would we call someone riding an Ebike a mountain biker?


Here in CA most places allow emtb on MTB trails. So yes I am.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> In many places you can ride an ebike where mtb's are allowed, and in my book someone riding an ebike on a mtb trail is mountain biking, though they aren't riding a bicycle.
> 
> ^See that KenPsz?


:thumbsup:

You know what I could agree with the distinction they are mountain biking though they are not riding a bicycle, that's fair.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Lopaka said:


> The next big evolution in mountain biking will be virtual mountain biking, VR glasses and a VR handlebar.
> 
> Why get dirty, or wet or tired? Why sweat?
> 
> ...


I'm considering opening a new business. I'll ride my bike for others. They'll pay me to ride for them. They won't have to ride uphill - I'll do that. They can sit on their couch and watch TV while I'm out getting their exercise for them. Talk about win/win!

I'll keep my prices reasonable but whenever my clients want a new bike obviously they'll have to pay for that. And when other riders on the trail ask me about the bike I'm riding, I'll say, "It's so-&-so's bike" so my client will get the good feeling of having a bike that everybody envies. This is important, isn't it?

Who's ready to sign up? Big discounts for annual contracts.
=sParty


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> ...in my book someone riding an ebike on a mtb trail is mountain biking, though they aren't riding a bicycle.


if i was riding a horse on a mtb trail am i still mountain biking? you're saying it doesn't matter if it's actually a bicycle or not...


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I wanted an e bike before I saw that video, now I want one more


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> if i was riding a horse on a mtb trail am i still mountain biking? you're saying it doesn't matter if it's actually a bicycle or not...


No, but if you're riding a bike, in the mountains, on a mtb trail.... guess I'm just not that hung up on that particular definition.

I've probably stated this 100 times but I *am* *completely* opposed to ebikes being defined as bicycles and therefore automatically gaining access to any trail a bicycle is allowed on. You may see that as a contradiction but that's my take and I'm sticking to it.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

slimat99 said:


> Ebikes are not mountain bikes. They aren't apart of the sport. It would only be exclusion if Ebikes were mountain bikes.


Some are electric mountain bikes!

I happen to think they're pretty cool. When I eventually get one, I'll still enjoy climbing on my Hightower.

I'm also lucky that there are hundreds of miles of really nice single track close by that are 100% legal for electric mtb and not evenly remotely crowded.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Don't have the patience to watch that entire video. Once they stopped talking and it went to him riding berms, I stopped. Usually my patience runs thin when stupidity affects my day. From just the premise, I got the impression that it was a poor pitch for ebikes. 

Coming from 5500 miles of experience on an emtb, it puts more climbs into my comfort zone, making me more willing to ride difficult ones, kind of like insurance in case I overestimate my fitness. I've been re-experiencing trails that were neglected due to poor reward for the effort put out. On my usual trails, I can spend 4 hours riding on emtb and regular bike, but a higher % of the time spent on emtb is time I consider better spent due to the reduction of time grinding and time in the suffer zone, less time doing stuff that either I, or my bike, naturally struggles at, and more doing what I set out for.

I've had fun challenging climbs that I suspected would've likely forced me to dismount. I still put out an effort I consider at least moderate, but can do something besides cry my grievances when the climb attempts to kick my butt. Going up a power level is kind of like shifting to an easier gear, except that I don't deal with the front-end wandering, stalling, rear wheel slippage, and the awkward positioning and techniques to avoid all this, which is caused by going too slow.

Some people get new bikes that are more capable at gravity related stuff, giving them confidence and the will to even open up to trying more challenging stuff that they avoided. Emtbs are like that for any stamina based challenges, improving confidence regarding surviving climbs not too unlike confidence in surviving wild gravity-based challenges. I don't worry too much about endurance now, not locking myself into fitting a ride in just to retain fitness. My emtb has been my go-to and even replaced my car for a number of my routines, including food shopping, quick errands like dropping off packages, and getting to the trailhead and back. Tons of potential for improvement too, making it exciting to be living during this era. I think bikes fit into my life balance even better than before, thanks to it. It's not a lifestyle thing, but more of very versatile tool to get around, letting my curiosity and adventurous spirit bloom a bit more.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

varaxis said:


> don't have the patience to each watch that video. Usually my patience runs thin when stupidity affects my day. From just the premise, i got the impression that it was a poor pitch for ebikes.
> 
> Coming from 5500 miles of experience on an emtb, it puts more climbs into my comfort zone, more willing to ride difficult ones, kind of like insurance in case i overestimate my fitness. I can spend 4 hours riding on emtb and regular bike, but a higher % of the time spent on emtb is time i consider better spent due to the reduction of time grinding and time in the suffer zone, doing stuff that either i, or my bike, is terrible at.
> 
> I've had fun challenging climbs that i suspected would've likely forced me to dismount. I still put out an effort i consider at least moderate, but can do something besides cry my grievances when the climb attempts to kick my butt, going up a power level kind of like shifting a gear, except that i don't deal with the detriment of wandering and stalling caused by going too slow.


cheater!!!!!!!

(actually I am really jealous)


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> In many places you can ride an ebike where mtb's are allowed, and in my book someone riding an ebike on a mtb trail is mountain biking, though they aren't riding a bicycle.
> 
> ^See that KenPsz?


Yes and many places you can ride a moto where you can ride a mountain bike. What sense would it make to call Ebiking, mountain biking, when it's not allowed on all mountain bike trails? It's hard to call Ebiking mountain biking when it's not allowed on all mountain bike trails don't you think?


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

slimat99 said:


> Yes and many places you can ride a moto where you can ride a mountain bike. What sense would it make to call Ebiking, mountain biking, when it's not allowed on all mountain bike trails? It's hard to call Ebiking mountain biking when it's not allowed on all mountain bike trails don't you think?


So if we put an E in front of emountain biking, you would be okay? Personally, being in the ebike forum, I thought most would understand we are talking about emtb riding. When it comes to motor, again I would have thought the E in front of bike would be enough to understand there is a motor in the bike, but may not to you?

Also the title of this thread states ebikes and even the video it was about all about how much fun an ebike is. I didn't see any deception between the host and Rob Warner trying to make believe they were on regular bikes. Did you see something else? Can you remind me again why you are posting on the ebike sub-forum?


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> ..remind me again why you are posting on the ebike sub-forum?


everyone is here because they are genuinely interested in ebikes. if they weren't, they just wouldn't bother...


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

mtbbiker said:


> So if we put an E in front of emountain biking, you would be okay? Personally, being in the ebike forum, I thought most would understand we are talking about emtb riding. When it comes to motor, again I would have thought the E in front of bike would be enough to understand there is a motor in the bike, but may not to you?
> 
> Also the title of this thread states ebikes and even the video it was about all about how much fun an ebike is. I didn't see any deception between the host and Rob Warner trying to make believe they were on regular bikes. Did you see something else? Can you remind me again why you are posting on the ebike sub-forum?


Yes, if an E is put in front of mountain biking it makes it ok with me. As long as we separate the two that's all I care about. I'm here because Ebikes threaten trail access. I want to see separation not just in what we call mountain biking, but in trail access. Other user groups, and the bike community as a whole seem to have a hard time understanding the differences. Sorry for derailing a bit. To be honest, I don't know if I've ever read a thread on MTBR that didn't branch off into all sorts of areas some relevant, some not. It's just what happens. It's half the fun. Anyway, I don't care to comment on Rob's opinion. I'm not interested in Ebikes. I'm only interested in trail access and Ebikes threaten that. Carry on with your ebike moderating.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

some people are just paranoid weirdos, logic will never change them...


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> everyone is here because they are genuinely interested in ebikes. if they weren't, they just wouldn't bother...


I would say non ebike enthusiasts are here because they are concerned about the implications for bikes?
Personally I think ebikes are a brilliant replacement for cars. On mountainbike trails, not so much.
I think this will also change trail building a little too. Traditionally difficult trails were built out of way, either up a big climb or a long way from other trails, to naturally weed out the inexperienced.
I watched semi amused as a dozen older folk fret about which of three black trails to descend, as it was only way down. The trail up was a blue, but an awful climb. 
It will need better signage, IE don't climb this trail unless you can descend a black trail. With the motor, these riders were able to get up this ride no problem (including passing me) and then were stuck not being able to ride anywhere. The climb is one way.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I thought WestCoastHucker was being harsh in calling people paranoid weirdos. Perhaps I would've reworded it to describe certain opinions as weirdly paranoid. I'm beginning to think his original wording is more accurate.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

KenPsz said:


> If you enjoy that part of riding have at it but please don't suggest that others that don't like that component should be doing something else.


I used to be of that bent but no longer. I'm not suggesting that anymore.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I don't really give a sh!t if you ride an eBike or not.

All I ask is:
A. Don't be a d!ck.
B. See A.
C. All of the above

By the way, insisting that my way of riding isn't as much fun because the uphills take longer is being a d!ck. Don't do that. I actually enjoy that long, slow grind. No, I do not want to do more of them with a motor. No I don't want to do it faster with a motor. I just don't want one. I like the ride the way I do it. I enjoy my version of it. So don't be a d!ck with your eBike, and I will gladly ignore that you are on one.

If I want to skip the climb, I will occasionally shuttle (rare), or use my seasonal lift pass (which half the time I still climb up instead of use the ski lift).


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

KenPsz said:


> I'm not wrong where I live, so can I say you're wrong? There is a big distinction around here between road riders and mountain bikers not many cross over.
> 
> Yes I know many mountain bikers "embrace the suck" they post here telling e-bikers to just ride motos or e-motos. I notice you don't ask why they are so close minded.


You started this with the 3rd post.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

sfgiantsfan said:


> You started this with the 3rd post.


I did not expect that snide comment to roll into this mess. But given the feelings of some here I should've known better.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

slimat99 said:


> You are not a mountain biker when you are riding your Ebike. Why is that hard to understand? You can't ride your Ebike where you can your mountain bike. You can't enter your Ebike in the mountain bike races you've done. They are different enough to be separated by trail use and racing, so why would we call someone riding an Ebike a mountain biker?


Aha, thanks for your input.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

mlx john said:


> Some are electric mountain bikes!
> 
> I happen to think they're pretty cool. When I eventually get one, I'll still enjoy climbing on my Hightower.
> 
> I'm also lucky that there are hundreds of miles of really nice single track close by that are 100% legal for electric mtb and not evenly remotely crowded.


Actually, you'll see your old bike and only ride the ebike.

I sold my Enduro and now i only ride my 180 front and rear haibike, because why not?

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

slimat99 said:


> Yes, if an E is put in front of mountain biking it makes it ok with me. As long as we separate the two that's all I care about. I'm here because Ebikes threaten trail access. I want to see separation not just in what we call mountain biking, but in trail access. Other user groups, and the bike community as a whole seem to have a hard time understanding the differences. Sorry for derailing a bit. To be honest, I don't know if I've ever read a thread on MTBR that didn't branch off into all sorts of areas some relevant, some not. It's just what happens. It's half the fun. Anyway, I don't care to comment on Rob's opinion. I'm not interested in Ebikes. I'm only interested in trail access and Ebikes threaten that. Carry on with your ebike moderating.


Oh, please.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

rod9301 said:


> Actually, you'll see your old bike and only ride the ebike.
> 
> I sold my Enduro and now i only ride my 180 front and rear haibike, because why not?
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


 I hear ya..

There are a lot of great places to ride where an E-bike is currently not allowed at this point. I'm pretty fit, and I've demoed a few E-bikes here and there, and the "lightness" and agility of my Hightower (V2) is refreshing after riding an E-bike.

I'm also a bit of a masochist (not a roadie ) and enjoy the suffering on a good climb with the promise of a fun descent.

There are some really rocky and technical trails with tons of climbing where I would use the E-bike more than my HT (legal). When I do 25+ miles on the bike, I feel like I got hit by a mack truck afterwards. When I do the same on an E-bike, I've gotten a descent cardio workout, but still feel relatively fresh.


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## not2shabby (Sep 19, 2014)

I test rode an ebike a while back in the LBS parking lot and can see the attraction. Due to work, etc, riding time is limited, so it's hard to build up/maintain climbing fitness especially during winter. I've only been out 2-3 times in the last 3 months, trails are too wet to ride and it never got cold enough to freeze them either. Sucks.
I'm not what you'd call a fan of climbing either, but it is a really good workout. Being 62 now, it probably won't get any easier unless I get more ride time if/when I retire. Having a little help going up could be appreciated at times. I'm guessing most ebikes have a selector for power assist level, so you can choose how hard you want to work on a given day. Since they are quite a bit heavier than a regular mtb, I'm sure you wouldn't want to turn it completely off.
Last I heard, emtb's (pedal assist only) are allowed on the trails around here, but I can see the concern of regular mtb riders regarding trail access. IF emtbr riders act like douches; passing people rudely, skidding all over the place and tearing up the trail, it can become a real problem.
BTW, I also have a dual sport dirt bike and there's nowhere less than 1 1/2 hours away to ride dirt, so I have a set of street wheels and tires for it. Some sport bike and cruiser riders look me at funny on the street, some give me a thumbs up. So...ride what ya like where it's legal, don't be a douche and show everyone respect.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Hiding the hub motor behind some pannier bags no one would even know its an ebike.


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## mfiles (Sep 19, 2007)

When you turn 72 years-old, get back to me on this.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

KenPsz said:


> I like mountain bikes, been riding them for 25+ years, just not climbing, peddling downhill is fun though. Plus motos are expensive and I don't want to spend that kind of cash along with the need to drive 2 hrs to ride one.
> 
> If you (royal you) like discomfort so much just be a road rider don't demand mountain biking should be like road riding. That was kind of the whole point when mountain biking started it was not road riding and the attitudes of "embrace the suck" that group has. But over the years it does seem that road riding attitudes have creeped into mountain biking and not for the better.
> 
> That video reminds me of what mountain biking was like in the late 90's where the idea was fun and cool tech, not the "embrace the suck" attitude.


I find it interesting that you think road riding attitudes have creeped into mountain biking. Isn't it the opposite? Look at the typical 'mountain bike' of the 1990's. It looks like a beefed-up road bike. Compare that to the mountain bikes of today --- even a new XC bike is way, way more tough and capable than most mountain bikes of 20+ years ago. And rim brakes...I assume you've gone down a loose trail and could not stop in time with them, so you found out the hard way how bad road bike brakes are for mountain biking. Mountain biking has moved away from road biking, not closer to it, thank god. The exception being gravel bikes, maybe that's the excuse for road bikers to get closer to offroading but gravel bikes are not mountain bikes, they just aren't. Even if you put flat bars on them, they don't really compare even to a rigid mountain bike.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

slimat99 said:


> If I'm closed minded because I'm excluding motorized bikes from the sport of mountain biking then so be it. Ebikes are not mountain bikes. They are their own thing, completely separate from the sport of MTB.


I think that's the key word in your reply: sport. Technically, any bike out there that rides up and down a hill or a mountain is 'mountain biking'. It could be a road bike, gravel bike, single speed BMX, whatever. But I agree that if you consider mountain biking a sport then e-bikes don't fit in with the sport. That however does not mean they don't mountain bike, they do. They just don't fit in with the traditional sport of mountain biking.


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## Callender (Mar 25, 2014)

^ Then I guess DH bikes don't fit in with the traditional sport of mountain biking either, since most people don't climb with them.

Fully rigid or nothing!


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Sparticus said:


> Because I'm not close minded about ebikes. In fact I'm looking forward to owning one someday. I simply understand, as some don't, that an ebike is not a bicycle.
> 
> To illustrate this point I'll explain that I'm an off-road motorcyclist, aka a "dirt biker." Do I think that off-road motorcycles are mountain bikes? No. Does this mean that off-road motorcycles are inherently bad? No.
> =sParty


It's not even a bicycle? It has two wheels, a drivetrain, handlebars, brakes. If someone thinks in black-and-white terms, then no, e-bikes are not bicycles. If someone thinks in relative terms, compared to the 15000-25000 watt-equivalents of a 20-30 horsepower dirt bike, a 250-1000 watt e-bike is much closer to a bicycle than a dirt bike. Much less than 10% of the power of a dirt bike, different suspension, traction, you name it. Much closer to a normal bike than a dirt bike. But only if you think in relative terms. If someone likes to compartmentalize everything, then they will separate e-bikes into their own group away from bicycles. And that's OK, everyone has their own personality and way of dealing with incoming information.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

mtbbiker said:


> I don't get: gravel bikes, single speeds, fat bikes, etc.... But you won't see me going into those sub-forums and giving my opinion for many reasons!
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've gone into the gravel bike forum a couple times and tortured them for a while, I couldn't help it. I seriously laugh out loud every time I think of a bike designed to specifically ride on gravel. Like gravel is some complex, challenging surface or something.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

bicycle

n.
A vehicle consisting of a light frame mounted on two wire-spoked wheels one behind the other and having a seat, handlebars for steering, brakes, and two pedals or a small motor by which it is driven.
n.
An exercise bicycle.
intransitive verb
To ride or travel on a bicycle.

More at Wordnik from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

----

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation
Jump to search
See also Bicycle (disambiguation), Bike (disambiguation), or Motorcycle.
The most popular bicycle model-and most popular vehicle of any kind in the world-is the Chinese Flying Pigeon, with about 500 million produced.[1]
Menu
0:00
Classic bell of a bicycle

A bicycle, also called a bike or cycle, is a human-powered or motor-powered


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

I actually saw that video earlier in the week and thought it was great. It was cool to watch Rob Warner have fun on a bike. He seemed quite happy with the riding experience. 

I have an interest in an eMTB in the future but I've always been a roadie/gravel rider at heart. I'm reluctant to enter the eMTB scene because I don't want to deal with any negativity from riding it on a regular basis. People have been quite surprised over my e-gravel bike though. I'm guessing that the locals didn't realize that an e-gravel bike was out there. They didn't realize that my bike was an e-bike either! It was disguised because I have all my bags on the frame and it has a 2x chainring setup. 

I did find Rob Warner's comments about staying fit on an e-bike to be interesting. Before buying my e-bike, I wasn't sure what my fitness would feel like during the experience of riding my bike. I have to say that my e-bike has been very helpful in that category.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

matt4x4 said:


> bicycle
> 
> n.
> A vehicle consisting of a light frame mounted on two wire-spoked wheels one behind the other and having a seat, handlebars for steering, brakes, and two pedals or a small motor by which it is driven.
> ...


LOL! Neither of your sources is an actual dictionary, they're wikis. Those definitions were taken from other sources and modified by someone random that apparently likes e-bikes.

Just because someone from the internet swooped in and added the word "motor" to a definition, doesn't make it so.

You can copy and search your definition to see where it was lifted from and then changed. Original form, before getting wikkied with a motor:

bi·cy·cle (bī′sĭk′əl, -sĭ-kəl, -sī′kəl)
n.
1. A vehicle consisting of a light frame mounted on two typically wire-spoked wheels one behind the other and usually having a seat, handlebars for steering, brakes, and two pedals by which it is driven.
2. An exercise bicycle.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Why does the motor, wheel construction (wire spokes), pedals, and handlebar matter? Swap bar with a wheel, swap spokes with larger rigid structure, propel with stirrups...

Thought a bicycle was merely a vehicle with two wheels. They don't have to be inline, but no one calls a wheelchair a bike because there's a more accurate term for it. A penny-farthing is a bike, but has a more accurate term. Mtn bike, fixie... I've seen custom forms and bills of lading say bicycle or ebike, for various two wheeled products, like hoverboards.

When engines/motors were developed, it was a matter of time for someone to add a miniaturized one to a bicycle, which they called a motorcycle. There are different types, from grom bikes, scooters, and the combination of motor and pedals were called mopeds. There was probably a "power wheels" kids toy version. Motorcycles have grown in size, but they're separated by class. A 300 costs like $4-5k new and does 0-60 in about 11 seconds.

The latest iteration of light weight low powered moped, something between a moped and bicycle, is an ebike.

They're all bicycles. Just one's an ebike and deserves its own legal class due to how different it is. It was given a legal class, where it was deemed more like human powered bicycles by governments world wide, and could share existing infrastructure and laws.

The objections to this have ranged from:

"What if people hack it to go beyond its intended speed limitations?"

"There's plenty of motorized infrastructure, why not they join traffic on those? I don't want to be passed at high speed"

"It looks too close to a regular bicycle, what if it gives bikers a bad name from hikers and other trail users?"

"I don't want an ebike cause it looks too ugly. [posts pic of ebike that intentionally doesn't look like human powered bike]"

Now the industry makes some of them look like regular bikes, especially now that sales are picking up and people are demanding it...

It's been how many years and there's been one high profile case regarding a chipped ebike causing a stir in society. I still believe ebikes have priced themselves out of reach of most people to be much of a problem yet. Normal assholes don't get that much money, hopefully. I suppose people like in SoCal's LA/Orange county gets stereotypical BMW-type assholes. XD


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I must say, I find all of your postulating on STA, mid-foot positioning and all the rest rather strange now that I know that you aren't the one actually providing power to the bicycle.

I suppose one can more readily ignore actual human physiology if a battery is providing the energy for forward propulsion, not a living, breathing human being. Funny, that.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I worry about that stuff on my regular bike, because my body only has enough energy stored, and I can only replenish so much (e.g. Tailwind Nutrition), so I must be efficient. My power output is okay due to gearing, but sometimes going too slow adds to the challenges and further drains my energy.

On an ebike, many of those issues are solved straight-forwardly. I can choose how much exertion I can put out. My Shimano motor system has different rates of assist. In eco, it assists a whole 30 Nm max. In trail mode, it feels just like eco when riding casually, but if I put out lots of torque such as on a climb, it continues to assist beyond 30 Nm, adaptively adding more as I push against the pedals more. In boost mode, it gives me 80 Nm of torque with as little as 28 Nm of torque from me; I don't have to work as hard to get the assistance. If I wanted to ride very easily, without breaking a sweat, I can soft pedal in boost, and it's effectively multiplying my torque by 3x. If I soft pedal in other modes, I just go a lot slower like a regular bike. It's not unlike shifting gears, but my minimum speed is higher. Each trail has its own flow; it's different for each bike. A emtb lowers the fitness requirement to stay in it, especially for uphill flow. Trying to go faster than the trail's natural flow is even more challenging on an emtb, due to its compromised handling prowess; to me, spoiled by nicer bikes, it's not an enjoyable challenge (I purposely avoid trying for KOMs nowadays), compared to just experiencing natural flow.

I have multiple bikes. I've ridden regular mtbs for years and still do. I just been gradually finding that ebikes make more sense through experience, as stigmas have gone away. People are still in the closet, due to its level of social acceptance. The emtb didn't change me into some terrorist; I'm still mostly the same person before emtb. My emtb is pretty old school, since I picked a cheap one, but I find I am attracted to it still over new school bikes that have improved capability and efficiency. My weight-weenie upgraditis has been cured for the most part, which I credit to the emtb and new school stuff with regular mtbs. Emtbs have a ton of room to improve. My new school experiments were done over a year ago on regular bikes. I've put 5k+ miles on my ebike due to regularly riding to and from the trail head, up to 22 miles away each way. Emtbs being called an enabler can mean different things to different folks.

In short, you're extremely wrong if you think I don't put power to a bicycle. Even imagining that shows how ignorant you are. If it's due to bias, you're a bigot. You need a reality check--you're acting like a childish bully with a strong "be more like me" vibe. I talk about stuff I'm interested in and get so excited about learning more about it, that I feel compelled to share it. I don't have patience to deal with stupidity borne from willful ignorance. I'd love for emtbs to become more efficient with all the stuff I learned from new school experiments.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> I suppose one can more readily ignore actual human physiology if a battery is providing the energy for forward propulsion, not a living, breathing human being. Funny, that.


You do realize zone 2 (HR or power) training is by far the most effective training you can do for fitness gains right? Every single fast rider I've ever met spends the vast majority of their time in Z2 which barely feels like you're working. Practically every pro rider will spend most of their time on Z1 - Z2 unless they just do track sprinting.

Most people can't climb a 3% gradient and stay in Z2. This causes them to get fatigued and can't put in the 6+ hours a week you need to see significant fitness gains. For those who can't put in the hours for other reasons they'll hit a platue and would benefit from more intense workouts. But they'll still never get as fit as someone who can put in more saddle time at an easier pace.

Even with an e-bike I can garentee any rider will at least be in their zone 2 and can get substantial fitness gains if they put in the time.


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## Mtbvkk (Sep 13, 2017)

For those that don’t like technology, get rid of gears, 12 speed 1x drive trains, disc brakes, wireless shifters, wide handle bars, clip-in pedals, modern tires, carbon frames, composite pedals, rechargeable lights and anything else that has advanced riding since the 1950’s and go up a mountain.

If you ride a class 1 e-mountain bike, you will quick realize that it’s on that spectrum of invention of things that enhance mountain bike riding without taking away the essential nature of the sport which is fun, adventure, and exercise. There are competitions now worldwide so how is it not part of the sport? And if it’s being embraced by world class riders worldwide, why isn’t it good enough for the average joe ( like me ) in America who had no aspirations to ever compete?


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Mtbvkk said:


> For those that don't like technology, get rid of gears, 12 speed 1x drive trains, disc brakes, wireless shifters, wide handle bars, clip-in pedals, modern tires, carbon frames, composite pedals, rechargeable lights and anything else that has advanced riding since the 1950's and go up a mountain.
> 
> If you ride a class 1 e-mountain bike, you will quick realize that it's on that spectrum of invention of things that enhance mountain bike riding without taking away the essential nature of the sport which is fun, adventure, and exercise. There are competitions now worldwide so how is it not part of the sport? And if it's being embraced by world class riders worldwide, why isn't it good enough for the average joe ( like me ) in America who had no aspirations to ever compete?


I don't think any anti Ebiker is anti technology. The motor is what I and many others are against. Electric shifting, droppers... doesn't change anything, but as soon as a motor sends power to the rear wheel it's a different game. Power output isn't nearly as relevant as so many think it is. We all understand the differences between power outputs, pedal assist vs throttle, but motors in any form completely change the perception of mountain bikes in general with other user groups. Nothing the industry has done to make bikes faster and more capable has come even remotely close to threatening trail access like adding motors. We are entering uncharted waters. Everyone underestimating this is either selfishly ignoring the current climate around the county, or they are just clueless. Watching the industry play this issue down just shows how money is put in front of everything including the sustainability of the sport itself. I know I'm the fox in the hen house here. Ride your motorbikes all you want, just please don't stick your heads in the sand on the very real trail access issue.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

slimat99 said:


> I don't think any anti Ebiker is anti technology. The motor is what I and many others are against. Electric shifting, droppers... doesn't change anything, but as soon as a motor sends power to the rear wheel it's a different game. Power output isn't nearly as relevant as so many think it is. We all understand the differences between power outputs, pedal assist vs throttle, but motors in any form completely change the perception of mountain bikes in general with other user groups. Nothing the industry has done to make bikes faster and more capable has come even remotely close to threatening trail access like adding motors. We are entering uncharted waters. Everyone underestimating this is either selfishly ignoring the current climate around the county, or they are just clueless. Watching the industry play this issue down just shows how money is put in front of everything including the sustainability of the sport itself. I know I'm the fox in the hen house here. Ride your motorbikes all you want, just please don't stick your heads in the sand on the very real trail access issue.


You're not the fox in the hen house, you're more likely just an uninformed troll. But that's OK. Your POV is in the rapidly increasing minority. The rest of the world figured it out. We will too. #morepeopleonbikes


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

RickBullottaPA said:


> You're not the fox in the hen house, you're more likely just an uninformed troll. But that's OK. Your POV is in the rapidly increasing minority. The rest of the world figured it out. We will too. #morepeopleonmotorbikes


Fixed it for you. 
Not sure s/he is in the majority. This is a mountain-bike forum and as soon as you add a motor it becomes another thing. As I said, I've no issue with these as car replacements, brilliant I say. And they are different to ride on trails. They just need to be ridden on specific e-bike trails. I don't ride my bike on moto trails, they don't ride on ours.
Being perfectly blunt, it's made no difference to me, I suspect it only will when one of the regular group gets one. Then we'll worry about it.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Mudguard said:


> Fixed it for you.
> Not sure s/he is in the majority. This is a mountain-bike forum and as soon as you add a motor it becomes another thing. As I said, I've no issue with these as car replacements, brilliant I say. And they are different to ride on trails. They just need to be ridden on specific e-bike trails. I don't ride my bike on moto trails, they don't ride on ours.
> Being perfectly blunt, it's made no difference to me, I suspect it only will when one of the regular group gets one. Then we'll worry about it.


It's a big world The rest of the world is ahead of us on this topic. We'll catch up. Kinda like we did with COVID-19. ;-) Too soon?

I hear your point - but I don't see it in the real world here in PA. Support for eMTB access from mountain bikers is strong.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

RickBullottaPA said:


> It's a big world The rest of the world is ahead of us on this topic. We'll catch up. Kinda like we did with COVID-19. ;-) Too soon?
> 
> I hear your point - but I don't see it in the real world here in PA. Support for eMTB access from mountain bikers is strong.


Well we only have eight cases of the virus, but that's luck and isolation more than anything and won't stay like that.

My local riding spot allows pedal assist, but no throttle, but as I mentioned earlier, the problem is signage and inexperienced riders getting into spots that previously they couldn't.
Perhaps we'll go back in time a bit, obscured trail entry, no Strava allowed, only a who's who will be allowed to ride. The builder's and their friends etc.


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

mtbbiker said:


> He pretty much sums up why I love ebikes and I'm sure most others on this ebike sub-forum as well!


"They're the F#ckin' best things ever made!"

F#ckin'AAA! 

Catfish ...


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## Mtbvkk (Sep 13, 2017)

slimat99 said:


> I don't think any anti Ebiker is anti technology. The motor is what I and many others are against. Electric shifting, droppers... doesn't change anything, but as soon as a motor sends power to the rear wheel it's a different game. Power output isn't nearly as relevant as so many think it is. We all understand the differences between power outputs, pedal assist vs throttle, but motors in any form completely change the perception of mountain bikes in general with other user groups. Nothing the industry has done to make bikes faster and more capable has come even remotely close to threatening trail access like adding motors. We are entering uncharted waters. Everyone underestimating this is either selfishly ignoring the current climate around the county, or they are just clueless. Watching the industry play this issue down just shows how money is put in front of everything including the sustainability of the sport itself. I know I'm the fox in the hen house here. Ride your motorbikes all you want, just please don't stick your heads in the sand on the very real trail access issue.


But that's what you're failing to comprehend and it's interesting about who you think has their head stuck in the sand. Your issue with motors on class 1 bikes would be exactly the same if you had an issue with people suddenly using gears on their bikes way back when. There is no difference. I am with you on class 2,3 bikes, dirt bikes and motorbikes. But class 1 bikes are not "mopeds". If your try one out you'd see how they will make the sport better for everyone.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Mtbvkk said:


> There is no difference. I am with you on class 2,3 bikes, dirt bikes and motorbikes. But class 1 bikes are not "mopeds". If your try one out you'd see how they will make the sport better for everyone.


It has a motor, and a battery, that powers the rear wheel. No advances in mountain-bike tech have increased the number of watts to the rear wheel beyond what the rider can push out. 
Class one could put out kW as long as it's pedal assist only and won't exceed 20mph. How it is improving the sport for everyone? Getting more people riding? Or getting more people riding, that couldn't before?


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

richj8990 said:


> I find it interesting that you think road riding attitudes have creeped into mountain biking. Isn't it the opposite? Look at the typical 'mountain bike' of the 1990's. It looks like a beefed-up road bike. Compare that to the mountain bikes of today --- even a new XC bike is way, way more tough and capable than most mountain bikes of 20+ years ago. And rim brakes...I assume you've gone down a loose trail and could not stop in time with them, so you found out the hard way how bad road bike brakes are for mountain biking. Mountain biking has moved away from road biking, not closer to it, thank god. The exception being gravel bikes, maybe that's the excuse for road bikers to get closer to offroading but gravel bikes are not mountain bikes, they just aren't. Even if you put flat bars on them, they don't really compare even to a rigid mountain bike.


What does technology improvements have to do with riding attitudes?


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

How would we feel if Specialized used a 50cc petrol motor instead of a battery and electric motor?
Still pedal assist.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Mudguard said:


> How would we feel if Specialized used a 50cc petrol motor instead of a battery and electric motor?
> Still pedal assist.


Most 50cc dirt bikes average 3hp = 2,200watts. By law a class one cannot be greater than 750watts or 1hp.

Yes a 50cc engine in an bike would be a problem and considered a moped that would probably tear up trails & of course noise pollution.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

slimat99 said:


> very real trail access issue.


I googled a bit, not extensively though. Have there been trails closed to mountain bikes, or trails threatened with closure because of E-bikes?

Serious question.



Mudguard said:


> How would we feel if Specialized used a 50cc petrol motor instead of a battery and electric motor?
> Still pedal assist.


Really? Are you really building up a strawman argument to score points? You're not here to have a serious conversation on a contentious issue. You've just illuminated that you're nothing but a troll.


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## Mtbvkk (Sep 13, 2017)

Mudguard said:


> How would we feel if Specialized used a 50cc petrol motor instead of a battery and electric motor?
> Still pedal assist.


Apples and oranges. Electric motors power delivery is different making them far more amenable to deliver a more natural pedal feel, not to mention weight. There's a reason the rest of the world thinks class1 E are just mountain bikes.


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## Mtbvkk (Sep 13, 2017)

Mudguard said:


> How it is improving the sport for everyone? Getting more people riding? Or getting more people riding, that couldn't before?


Youtube is your friend for the 1st question. As for the latter, mountain biking is getting more people out because it's a great sport. Some people end up on trail, cross country, downhill, enduro or e-bikes based on their preference.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

mlx john said:


> Really? Are you really building up a strawman argument to score points? You're not here to have a serious conversation on a contentious issue. You've just illuminated that you're nothing but a troll.


It's a genuine question. If we'd evolved down this path, would we feel the same? I think a big factor for e-bikes is the incognito nature of them.
I've no idea how much torque a CRC 50 makes, the horsepower is easy. Does anyone know the maximum torque for say a Kenovo vs a 50cc Moto?

Surely if you can call an e-bike, a bike, why can't you call a moped a bike?


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

RickBullottaPA said:


> You're not the fox in the hen house, you're more likely just an uninformed troll. But that's OK. Your POV is in the rapidly increasing minority. The rest of the world figured it out. We will too. #morepeopleonbikes


You're in PA. You haven't experience trial conflict because your MTB scene is tiny compared to many places. It's not like everywhere in the country is going to suffer from added traffic, and general anti bike attitudes from other user groups when motors hit the trails. Places like the front range of CO, Phoenix, Sedona, much of CA, WA, OR... are going to have issues.

Let me give you a quick example of trail issues well before motors: when I moved to Denver in 07 I could ride Apex, Yeti's lunch ride, anytime. Around 09 they moved it to alternate days for bikes because hikers complained. Do you think that situation has improved or gotten worse over the past 11 years? What do you think hikers and other users are going to say when motors hit the trails? Enjoy your PA scene where you have no drama. Just know that everywhere is not like PA, and using Europe as a model is worthless. They have a different culture towards all bikes.

You say more people on bikes as a positive but more bikes is part of the problem unfortunately. Our numbers need to be factored in when we talk about bringing motors into the fray. More people on bikes is like an equestrian saying more people on horses. You have to look outside your circle, and through the lens of other trail users. PA's riding scene is tiny compared to the Front Range. Comparing trail issues in PA to FR would be like comparing crime in a small town to NYC. I do believe I'm in the minority with my views like you say which worries me. Mountain bikers traditionally haven't been good at seeing things through others eyes. We've had a culture of illegal trail building for the past 20 years that's created a constant cat and mouse game of trail closures. We are looked upon as a user group that braids out trails, leaves trash, has poor etiquette, poach wilderness...When we add motors to the shi! show that exists in many places, it's going to get ugly. I'm sure you won't see any issues in PA because your numbers are so small, but to say there's nothing to worry about is being ignorant.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

mlx john said:


> I googled a bit, not extensively though. Have there been trails closed to mountain bikes, or trails threatened with closure because of E-bikes?
> 
> Serious question.
> 
> Really? Are you really building up a strawman argument to score points? You're not here to have a serious conversation on a contentious issue. You've just illuminated that you're nothing but a troll.


The trail access issue is something that could happen. If we wait to have this debate after we lose access it's kind of pointless. There is a lawsuit in CA, vitalmtb posted a few months ago against Ebikes from hikers and equestrians. You can look that up, but I can't give you specific trails that have been lost. I hope in a few years you and everyone here can say I was paranoid. I've been in this game a long time, I've lived in a few states with big mtb scenes. I've watched trails get closed for multiple reasons, but not ebikes. They are too new, too few right now. That's going to change, and change fast.


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## Mtbvkk (Sep 13, 2017)

slimat99 said:


> You're in PA. You haven't experience trial conflict because your MTB scene is tiny compared to many places. It's not like everywhere in the country is going to suffer from added traffic, and general anti bike attitudes from other user groups when motors hit the trails. Places like the front range of CO, Phoenix, Sedona, much of CA, WA, OR... are going to have issues.
> 
> Let me give you a quick example of trail issues well before motors: when I moved to Denver in 07 I could ride Apex, Yeti's lunch ride, anytime. Around 09 they moved it to alternate days for bikes because hikers complained. Do you think that situation has improved or gotten worse over the past 11 years? What do you think hikers and other users are going to say when motors hit the trails? Enjoy your PA scene where you have no drama. Just know that everywhere is not like PA, and using Europe as a model is worthless. They have a different culture towards all bikes.
> 
> You say more people on bikes as a positive but more bikes is part of the problem unfortunately. Our numbers need to be factored in when we talk about bringing motors into the fray. More people on bikes is like an equestrian saying more people on horses. You have to look outside your circle, and through the lens of other trail users. PA's riding scene is tiny compared to the Front Range. Comparing trail issues in PA to FR would be like comparing crime in a small town to NYC. I do believe I'm in the minority with my views like you say which worries me. Mountain bikers traditionally haven't been good at seeing things through others eyes. We've had a culture of illegal trail building for the past 20 years that's created a constant cat and mouse game of trail closures. We are looked upon as a user group that braids out trails, leaves trash, has poor etiquette, poach wilderness...When we add motors to the shi! show that exists in many places, it's going to get ugly. I'm sure you won't see any issues in PA because your numbers are so small, but to say there's nothing to worry about is being ignorant.


Then you have to ban YouTube, biking Associations and bike shops. Mountain biking is a great sport and people will come regardless of e-bikes. It's not growing because of e-bikes but is becoming a worldwide phenomenon because of YouTube


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

It could just be a natural spike in popularity, kind of like skateboarding in the 80's....
Then it died.
I can't wait until mountain biking is uncool.
Empty trails!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Mtbvkk said:


> Your issue with motors on class 1 bikes would be exactly the same if you had an issue with people suddenly using gears on their bikes way back when. There is no difference.


That's silly


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

ebikes are fun
I just love riding my ebike
I get out everyday to ride it
Grab groceries
Go for an aimless cruise
Go fishing

Everyone else seems to want an ebike, but they look at the cost of the store ebikes at $3k+ and they dont realize you can be all in for $1k easy installing a kit on your own bicycle with a reputable battery and charger. The yescomusa kits are dirt cheap and are direct drive motors which are strong and reliable and last a long time if you dont over heat the motors.

Ride pathways
Ride roads
Ride trails

Got the ebike grin for yrs now and loving it.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mtbvkk said:


> Apples and oranges. Electric motors power delivery is different .


Electric motors deliver more torque than roughly equivalently powered ICE motors, and they are able to do it instantly.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

We have to draw the line somewhere, Rich. Personally I believe the motor makes the difference. I'm not going to call a toad a frog simply because they look similar and they both jump.
=sParty


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Electric motors deliver more torque than roughly equivalently powered ICE motors, and they are able to do it instantly.


Torque is a pretty useless metric here. Wattage is much more accurate as it's describing total work being done at the wheel. You can apply tons of torque to the drivetrain and have zero slippage at the wheel. Think trying to start in a high gear and pushing as hard as you can on the pedal. You're applying a massive amount of torque but it isn't doing a whole lot at the wheel because you aren't producing any wattage without the cranks spinning.

700 watts isn't going to tear up any trails. I can drop 1,000 watts with my legs alone and it isn't going to compair to a 2250 watt (3hp) 50cc engine. Power delivery is also critical. If I had a clutch to dump with a measily 700 watts it will dig up the trail a little. Fortunately that isn't going to happen with the application of power from a pedal assist e-bike.

I don't even ride ebikes and currently have no interest to but you're grasping as some rediculous arguments.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Fajita Dave said:


> I don't even ride ebikes and currently have no interest to but you're grasping as some rediculous arguments.


So are people who are saying a motor+gears, suspension, dropper post, etc.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

slimat99 said:


> Yep. There would be zero ambiguity about whether people would consider them "motorbikes" if with each pedal stroke a tiny gas motor powered the rear wheel. Does the fact that the rear wheel gets power from a battery instead of gas really change anything? A Tesla is still a car, an Ebike is still a motorbike. There's a spectrum of motorbikes from low powered scooters and mopeds, to high powered crotch rockets and dirt bikes. Ebikes are just a new iteration of a low powered motorbike with a new school EV motor.


It is literally an "analog" mountain bike with a weak motor installed for assistance. It is by all intents and purposes a mountain bike. The motor does kick it purely out of the "bicycle" category which makes it an "e-bike." It isn't a moped and considering it anywhere near the class of a motorcycle is shooting for a whole different planet. Arguing over petty semantics isn't getting anyone anywhere.

The people who are against them are massively exaggerating what ebikes are capable of. A class 1 e-bike wont be tearing up any trails more than current mountain bikers and hikers do already. They will do far less damage than equestrians are already doing. No one will be at risk of "high speed" impacts outside of the risk we already have. Fast downhill riders carry by far more risk with both speed and stopping distance. The only legitimate concern for some areas would be increased traffic if more people get on bikes and in the trails. Popularity can definitely cause access issues in sensitive areas. Places without this sensitive issue have no legitimate reason to ban class 1 e-bikes.

Yes, people will mod them and cause issues. Just like dirtbikers poach mountain bike trails in some areas and mountain bikers poach hiking trails and somehow feel justified for doing so.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

slimat99 said:


> Torque is useless metric? In this video a guy is doing a burnout on his ebike by just pedaling with some front braking. Power to weight is what matters. The fact that E motors deliver all their torque instantly to such a light weight machine they don't need to be powerful. Burnout @ 18:10 if you want to watch.
> 
> https://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/mem...ritish-Mountain-Bike-Film,37554/iceman2058,94


I can and have done that with my legs alone on pavement as a kid. He's completely over the front wheel keeping the rear from even digging in but was kicking up leaves for dramatic effect. The skid at 17:50 or anyone roosting corners will do 10x more trail damage.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Train Wreck said:


> Really? The average trail rider isn't going to exceed 400 watts and if they do it will be quite brief. How long are you holding 1000+ watts? 5sec? 10sec? Next time take a look back and see how much you roosted the trail during that interval.


I do sprint intervals for some of my training. There is no roost at roughly 1,000 watts for about 15 seconds.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Train Wreck said:


> Next time take a look back and see how much you roosted the trail during that interval.


LOL

I've never roosted a mountain bike, even at peak fitness putting down maximum power.

I've also never roosted a 700 watt E-bike.


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## hopalong (Jul 28, 2007)

slimat99 said:


> Torque is useless metric? In this video a guy is doing a burnout on his ebike by just pedaling with some front braking. Power to weight is what matters. The fact that E motors deliver all their torque instantly to such a light weight machine they don't need to be powerful. Burnout @ 18:10 if you want to watch.
> 
> https://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/mem...ritish-Mountain-Bike-Film,37554/iceman2058,94


Check out these guys who must just be animals on the trail with all the torque they're putting out to do burnouts on non e-bikes... on pavement nonetheless!


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

mlx john said:


> LOL
> 
> I've never roosted a mountain bike, even at peak fitness putting down maximum power.
> 
> I've also never roosted a 700 watt E-bike.


You riding slicks?


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Train Wreck said:


> You riding slicks?


I ride with technique...and tires with traction.

You must be an animal on the bike.

I hope you're judicious with your strength, don't ruin those trails.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

mlx john said:


> You must be an animal on the bike.


:thumbsup:


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

slimat99 said:


> Keep the cranks spinning with the front locked and a fat weak dude could roost like a champ.


Yeah, I see that all the time.

Jesus H Christ

Some people might want to do some research into how not to engage in fallacious arguments if they want to be taken seriously.

I might be expecting too much I guess, this is the interwebs...


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

It seems e- bikes are sufficiently light enough and weak enough that they should be allowed on mountain bike trails.
Technically e- bikes are motorbikes, but much like aspirin and heroin are both drugs, the differences are sufficient enough that they deserve to be classified differently. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

People might want to put in a least one full ride on an eBike before making comments that have no bearing on reality


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Sparticus said:


> We have to draw the line somewhere, Rich. Personally I believe the motor makes the difference. I'm not going to call a toad a frog simply because they look similar and they both jump.
> =sParty


Yes, we do. I don't like them on singletrack either. Unless no one else is out or there is a consensus agreement that they are allowed, as in DH guys with e-bikes are allowed to cruise up the mountain with them instead of shuttling.

But you do realize that an e-mountain bike is a mountain bike that has e-power added to it. You take away the battery and motor, you have a mountain bike. It IS a mountain bike that has added power to it. So you are perfectly justified to consider them different from mountain bikes if they have an electric motor. But uninstall those components, it's a mountain bike, period.

Also when you look at it on a practical level, the the average rider does around 80-150 watts on a normal mountain bike for the whole loop, pros closer to 300-500, maybe 400 watts average (although many of those watt calculations are lower on Strava for those guys, sometimes it's below 200W for them, maybe they are not trying that day).

The average e-bike rider is not going to pedal quite as hard, so let's say 50-100 watts of human power, and 100-500 watts of e-power (I'm excluding the balls-out nutcases that try to use 1000+W all the time offroad). That's a combined 150-600 watts. That is within the pro's level of riding effort. In other words, the e-power is a crutch that helps the average rider attain a pro's level of power ON A BICYCLE. Also, remember that doubling total combined watts (or human watts) does NOT double mph, it only increases it 10-30%. E-power doesn't raise the average loop mph 300% or anything, that's just BS.

For the above e-bike rider that now has a pro-level of power: you can call that lazy, cheating, unfair, whatever you want. But all it does is help a mountain bike go faster with less pedaling effort. If someone hypothetically went from a 50-lb Walmart bike that averaged 5 mph offroad to a 20-lb $10000 XC bike that suddenly had them averaging 9 mph offroad, how is that any different in terms of going faster with a major tweak to the bike (in this case a new bike)? This is all about pedaling effort vs. mph. Throttle is a different debate. Much less bike weight is similar to e-power in terms of effort vs. mph results. Conversely, if you ramped down the power all the way back to around 50 watts for a 50-lb e-bike, it would be around as fast as a normal 30-lb e-bike. It would functionally be the same bike in terms of pedaling effort vs. mph. The 50 watts would compensate for the extra 20 lbs of bike (in effect it would compensate for the weight of itself --- the motor, and then the battery). An e-bike with 50 watts would not be any faster than a 30-lb normal bike.

Think about that. You can still divide e-bikes away from mountain bikes, but think about what is happening out there on a practical level. It's all about pedaling effort and watt generation (human or not) vs. mph result. Watts are watts, electric or human.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

richj8990 said:


> You take away the battery and motor, you have a mountain bike. It IS a mountain bike that has added power to it. So you are perfectly justified to consider them different from mountain bikes if they have an electric motor. But uninstall those components, it's a mountain bike, period.


Sounds like we're agreed, then. Ebikes have motors and mountain bikes don't.
=sParty


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Back in the '70s there were a couple of TV shows called "The Six Million Dollar Man" and "The Bionic Woman." These series' premise according to Wikipedia:
"The Six Million Dollar Man is an American science fiction and action television series, running from 1973 to 1978, about a former astronaut, USAF Colonel Steve Austin, portrayed by Lee Majors. Austin has superhuman strength due to bionic implants and is employed as a secret agent by a fictional U.S. government office titled OSI. The series was based on the Martin Caidin novel Cyborg, which was the working title of the series during pre-production.
A spin-off television series, The Bionic Woman, featuring the lead female character Jaime Sommers, ran from 1976 to 1978."

In both of these science fiction TV series, the man and woman were enhanced with powerful motorized mechanical devices which made them stronger than their non-enhanced regular human counterparts to the degree that no one disputed that the enhanced humans were fundamentally different than regular humans. No one tried to convince anyone else that the enhanced humans were actually simply regular humans or that they were basically the same as regular humans.

What's this got to do with riding two-wheeled machines on trails? Getting to that.

At this point I want to reiterate that I'm pro-ebike. I've stated this fact dozens of times within these forums. What I wonder is this: why is it that some of us who are pro-ebike have such a hard time admitting that ebiking is fundamentally different than regular mountain biking? Is it because some "regular mountain bikers" claim that the sport of ebiking is bad? Might those same regular mountain bikers say that off-road motorcycling is bad? Yet they don't generally introduce this argument, and I believe the root of the reason they don't reach for this argument is that no one that rides an off-road motorcycle tries to masquerade as a mountain biker. Off-road motorcyclists admit freely that even though they ride a machine that has two wheels and a handlebar, their machine is not a bicycle.

I'm asking my fellow pro-ebikers to please make the same admission. In fact I'm asking all of us to embrace and celebrate rather than deny the fact that having a motor fundamentally changes the machine. Doing so will not hurt the sport of ebiking. Quite the contrary, it will help the sport because at last ebikers will be standing tall and saying proudly, "This is what we do." That's all. Just quit saying ebikes are mountain bikes. Ebikes have motors, mountain bikes do not. So simple.

And so nothing wrong with embracing the relatively new sport of ebiking.

Call them ebikes or cyborg bikes or bionic bikes or six million dollar bikes or whatever you want -- it doesn't matter what we call them so long as we don't call them mountain bikes. If we call them mountain bikes, we're just pissing off everyone who rides a mountain bike. Whenever I eventually get an ebike, I'll ride it proudly. I'll be ebiking. And I'll tell people that what I'm doing is ebiking.

Time to ride.
=sParty


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Data from IMBA's test: https://b.3cdn.net/bikes/c3fe8a28f1a0f32317_g3m6bdt7g.pdf

Their hypothesis was that ebikes were somewhere between motorcycles and mountain bikes, using similar tests developed to prove mtb were low impact compared to hiking.

They found class 1 pedal assist to be roughly equivalent to MTB. In fact, they were surprised that the ebike disturbed the soil less depth-wise (didn't dig as deep).

Soil type (Mt Hood Oregon): Soils in the area are well draining, comprised of volcanic Zygore gravelly loams, with parent material of volcanic ash over colluvium derived from basalt and andesite. (NRCS, 2016.) Prior to testing, soils were consistently very dry across the test site, the area having experienced lower than average spring precipitation.








- test method, and how you should expect to interpret the following pics.








- trail cross section height change after 500 laps, cruising speed








- in an area prone to braking-related erosion








- inertia-related erosion








- *shock* emtbs less change _overall_ to tread surface?








- trail damage at each data point classified, into 4 classes.








- explanation of the above.








- IMBA's conclusion.








- Limited throttle test results.








- Adding this, in case people think it was due to ebikes being on 2.8 tires and regular mtbs were on 2.3, or something else...


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Sparticus said:


> Back in the '70s there were a couple of TV shows called "The Six Million Dollar Man" and "The Bionic Woman." These series' premise according to Wikipedia:
> "The Six Million Dollar Man is an American science fiction and action television series, running from 1973 to 1978, about a former astronaut, USAF Colonel Steve Austin, portrayed by Lee Majors. Austin has superhuman strength due to bionic implants and is employed as a secret agent by a fictional U.S. government office titled OSI. The series was based on the Martin Caidin novel Cyborg, which was the working title of the series during pre-production.
> A spin-off television series, The Bionic Woman, featuring the lead female character Jaime Sommers, ran from 1976 to 1978."
> 
> ...


Why not celebrate the distinction???? Because then you have no where to ride.

When some traditional mountain bikers stop acting like hikers and horse back riders trying to get e-bikers banded from trails you might get what you request.

Just having fun seems to no longer be a justification for some in this hobby so they want e-bikes banned since you are not earning your turns.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Varaxis said:


> View attachment 1317643
> 
> - trail cross section height change after 500 laps, cruising speed


Wait. I'm confused. Many people here argue that one of the benefits of an e-bike is that you can do more laps in the same amount of time. Or, for some people, riding an equal distance as their friends with less effort. So, why did IMBA use an equal number of laps

If I do 3 laps for every 2 I'd do on an actual mountain bike, or ride more than I'd be capable of doing under my own power, even if an eBike and an actual mountain bike caused the exact same amount of trail damage per mile ridden, they absolutely cause more trail damage per UNIT OF TIME than an actual mountain bike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> Also when you look at it on a practical level, the the average rider does around 80-150 watts on a normal mountain bike for the whole loop, pros closer to 300-500, maybe 400 watts average (although many of those watt calculations are lower on Strava for those guys, sometimes it's below 200W for them, maybe they are not trying that day).


What you been smoking Rich?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Sparticus said:


> I'm asking my fellow pro-ebikers to please make the same admission. In fact I'm asking all of us to embrace and celebrate rather than deny the fact that having a motor fundamentally changes the machine. Doing so will not hurt the sport of ebiking. Quite the contrary, it will help the sport because at last ebikers will be standing tall and saying proudly, "This is what we do." That's all. Just quit saying ebikes are mountain bikes. Ebikes have motors, mountain bikes do not. So simple.
> 
> And so nothing wrong with embracing the relatively new sport of ebiking.


Great post, but WAY too much common sense for this place!


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Sparticus said:


> Back in the '70s there were a couple of TV shows called "The Six Million Dollar Man" and "The Bionic Woman." These series' premise according to Wikipedia:
> "The Six Million Dollar Man is an American science fiction and action television series, running from 1973 to 1978, about a former astronaut, USAF Colonel Steve Austin, portrayed by Lee Majors. Austin has superhuman strength due to bionic implants and is employed as a secret agent by a fictional U.S. government office titled OSI. The series was based on the Martin Caidin novel Cyborg, which was the working title of the series during pre-production.
> A spin-off television series, The Bionic Woman, featuring the lead female character Jaime Sommers, ran from 1976 to 1978."
> 
> ...


Yeah, but how many of these pure mountain bikers will be left in a year or two. Europe is way ahead in terms of e mountain bike penetration and you don't see many serious mountain bikers that are not on e bikes.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Le Duke said:


> Wait. I'm confused. Many people here argue that one of the benefits of an e-bike is that you can do more laps in the same amount of time. Or, for some people, riding an equal distance as their friends with less effort. So, why did IMBA use an equal number of laps
> 
> If I do 3 laps for every 2 I'd do on an actual mountain bike, or ride more than I'd be capable of doing under my own power, even if an eBike and an actual mountain bike caused the exact same amount of trail damage per mile ridden, they absolutely cause more trail damage per UNIT OF TIME than an actual mountain bike.


You're right. More laps, more erosion. That's why they did 500, and took snapshots at various intervals like at 200 laps. I consider it insane that they did that many on a regular bike. Don't they get tired? Wouldn't the exhaustion lead to sloppier riding and more erosion? Probably explains why mtb erosion is possibly just as bad as emtb, amirite? Rigged! #conspiracy

I don't mean to speak for others, but I ride until satisfied. If I go out intending to get a workout, along with whatever goals I had in mind, I might do a short extra credit loop if I feel that I didn't fulfill that goal. In reality, I don't feel like that on an ebike, because I choose my assist mode to ensure I do feel satisfied on the originally planned route. More often than not, I show up to blow up, since I know I can rely on motor assist to help me survive the rest. I suspect that people who say they can get extra laps, say so because they can reduce the effort so they purposely feel like adding on another lap, having not been satisfied. It's ignorant to use simple logic, imagining ebike riders have this common saying, so it can be assumed that many are riding 50% more laps, based on your own routine (3 instead of 2).

P.S. Off-mode is a perfectly rideable mode, at least with Shimano, especially if you're fit enough to hang with fast guys without needing assist. Per unit of time depends on average speed. I'm going on average 2 mph faster than my mtb, including the pavement (pavement is where a lot of the speed difference is). I just put out more effort on my regular bike on average. Like I said before, the trail has its own natural flow, and I like going at that pace. It's unsustainable to put out such effort on a regular basis, hence why I stress over nutrition and recovery when riding my reg mtb. I've been able to ride on a completely empty stomach (fasting for over 24 hrs, taking Tailwind with me) on my emtb, though I was definitely suffering from a bonk by the end. Rituals like post-ride recovery are just unneeded. I can go out for 5 hours, and trust that the Tailwind Nutrition I drank during it was enough to keep things balanced.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

If they were actual attempting to replicate reality, 700-800 laps on the eBike vs 500 BN the actual mountain bike would have generated more life-like wear.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Varaxis said:


> They're all bicycles. Just one's an ebike and deserves its own legal class due to how different it is. It was given a legal class, where it was deemed more like human powered bicycles by governments world wide, and could share existing infrastructure and laws.
> 
> "What if people hack it to go beyond its intended speed limitations?"
> 
> ...


ebikes can be built for $1000 and totally reachable by an average person. No need to hack any proprietary system. You build your ebike to suit the local laws, hence why there is such components as a Cycle Analyst sold by Grintech.

The industry does have some sleek looking bicycles, but they are $3k+ ebikes.

They should do the same logic that they are doing with ebikes, and do it to vehicles. Have the legal max for HP for an automobile 100HP. See how that makes no sense. Its crazy.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> If they were actual attempting to replicate reality, 700-800 laps on the eBike vs 500 BN the actual mountain bike would have generated more life-like wear.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You'd be fabricating inaccurate data if you did this. Any credible scientific method needs to control variables and only find relevant data. The data they're looking for is if ebikes do more trail damage than a mtb. If you add more distance for the ebike alone than you added another variable that isn't relevant to the experiment. I'm sure there are plenty of mtbers here that ride more miles per week than most e-mtbers here. How are you going to account for their data since those riders will be doing more damage than the e-mtbers? I've done rides long enough that a current e-bike battery wont make it to the end. So surely an e-biker wouldn't have gone that far and would have done less trail damage.

The difference between e-bike and mtb in IMBA's testing has no statistical significance. There could be drastically more or less trail damage between two different riders simply from riding style, tire choice or body weight than there was between the mtb and e-bike. I have no doubt I can do far more damage on my mtb in half the distance if I went around skidding, smashing through corners or just riding on wet trails.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

matt4x4 said:


> ebikes can be built for $1000 and totally reachable by an average person. No need to hack any proprietary system. You build your ebike to suit the local laws, hence why there is such components as a Cycle Analyst sold by Grintech.
> 
> The industry does have some sleek looking bicycles, but they are $3k+ ebikes.
> 
> They should do the same logic that they are doing with ebikes, and do it to vehicles. Have the legal max for HP for an automobile 100HP. See how that makes no sense. Its crazy.


An e-bike is not a car and a car is being used on roads designed for cars. Comparing the two makes no sense.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Fajita Dave said:


> I don't even ride ebikes and currently have no interest to but you're grasping as some rediculous arguments.


I'm not making any argument at all, just clarifying what the difference in power delivery is between ICE and electric.

Go put words in someone else's mouth.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Fajita Dave said:


> You'd be fabricating inaccurate data if you did this. Any credible scientific method needs to control variables and only find relevant data. The data they're looking for is if ebikes do more trail damage than a mtb. If you add more distance for the ebike alone than you added another variable that isn't relevant to the experiment. I'm sure there are plenty of mtbers here that ride more miles per week than most e-mtbers here. How are you going to account for their data since those riders will be doing more damage than the e-mtbers? I've done rides long enough that a current e-bike battery wont make it to the end. So surely an e-biker wouldn't have gone that far and would have done less trail damage.
> 
> The difference between e-bike and mtb in IMBA's testing has no statistical significance. There could be drastically more or less trail damage between two different riders simply from riding style, tire choice or body weight than there was between the mtb and e-bike. I have no doubt I can do far more damage on my mtb in half the distance if I went around skidding, smashing through corners or just riding on wet trails.


But it is most certainly is relevant, and should have been addressed in the discussion portion of the article as a topic for further study. They obviously took pains to reduce the moto mileage, so why didn't they increase the eBike mileage?

But, of course, it wasn't. Why? Just about every pro-eBike argument here involves something along the lines of more distance for the same or less effort. You've made it yourself in this very thread, when you argued that they'd be able to stay in Z2 longer and thus put in more miles/hours on the bike without burnout.

My point, which was apparently lost on you, is that if you compare the mileage one rider is capable of doing on a normal mountain bike in a given time frame (say, two hours), and that which that same rider is capable of doing on an eBike, the mileage will be higher on the eBike. Eliminating all other variables, more mileage is more trail damage.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Why not celebrate the distinction???? Because then you have no where to ride.
> 
> When some traditional mountain bikers stop acting like hikers and horse back riders trying to get e-bikers banded from trails you might get what you request.


I would happily argue for e-bike access to many mtb trails as long as the distinction between them is kept clear enough that if e-bikes don't end up working out in the eyes of the LM, regular bikes don't share in any potential fallout. The way to do that is to call e-bikes "e-bikes" and admit that since they have a motor, they are not the same thing.

What's the BFD? Why do most e-bikers insist that they ride on mountain bikers coat-tails as far as access goes? Why can't you just do exactly what mountain bikers did and fight your own battles? I don't recall mountain bike advocates trying to convince people they should just be considered hikers because hikers also have wheels and gears in their watches. Trying to make arguments like that makes e-bikers their own worst enemies, as no LM is going to take someone who compares a drive motor to a fork seriously, nor should they.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm not making any argument at all, just clarifying what the difference in power delivery is between ICE and electric.
> 
> Go put words in someone else's mouth.


Context is important. This is an e-bike section of the forum. You brought up a ICE engine to make a direct (but incorrect) comparison to how an e-bike will tear up trails. Troll somewhere else


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Fajita Dave said:


> Context is important. This is an e-bike section of the forum. You brought up a ICE engine to make a direct (but incorrect) comparison to how an e-bike will tear up trails. Troll somewhere else


 I used to be a moderator in this sub-forum, pretty sure they don't hand the keys to trolls. Someone mentioned that ICE and electric motors deliver power differently and I simply explained what that difference is. Duh.

I stick up for sharing the trails with e-bikes here all the time, and have for years. Hell, I just did it again in the post directly above your reply. Same goes for arguing against the whole 'purist', 'best exerciser' angle, which I've also done in this thread.

Try getting a frigging clue.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Le Duke said:


> if you compare the mileage one rider is capable of doing on a normal mountain bike in a given time frame (say, two hours), and that which that same rider is capable of doing on an eBike, the mileage will be higher on the eBike. Eliminating all other variables, more mileage is more trail damage.


Okay. But just for fun, I'll play devil's advocate for a moment.

Back in my endurance racing years, I was riding about 20 hrs/week during training season. (Obviously talking analog bikes here.) Without doubt the duration of many of my training rides exceeded the capacity of any ebike's battery. Not to mention 100 miles just on race day (in my case typically 11-13 hrs). Since "more mileage is more trail damage," should endurance racing (as well as training for it) be banned because it causes too much impact?
=sParty


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

I rode my eBike yesterday. I had fun and enjoyed every minute of it.
Maybe we should social distance by going for a ride in the open to clear the mind


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> But it is most certainly is relevant, and should have been addressed in the discussion portion of the article as a topic for further study. They obviously took pains to reduce the moto mileage, so why didn't they increase the eBike mileage?
> 
> But, of course, it wasn't. Why? Just about every pro-eBike argument here involves something along the lines of more distance for the same or less effort. You've made it yourself in this very thread, when you argued that they'd be able to stay in Z2 longer and thus put in more miles/hours on the bike without burnout.
> 
> My point, which was apparently lost on you, is that if you compare the mileage one rider is capable of doing on a normal mountain bike in a given time frame (say, two hours), and that which that same rider is capable of doing on an eBike, the mileage will be higher on the eBike. Eliminating all other variables, more mileage is more trail damage.


Well we have some data from an e-bike rider here. He mentioned he averages 2mph faster on the e-bike. If he were to ride for two hours on a normal mtb at 7mph he will go 14 miles. If he were to ride two hours at 9mph he will go 18 miles. Are you telling me your local trails are so fragile they can't handle people doing an extra 4 miles on their rides? Most of my mtb rides are between 12 and 25 miles but go upwards of 50 so should I be banned from riding?

The variable you bring up is strictly trail usage which needs to be understood on a local level. That is a completely independent issue all on its own with no relevance to whether its on an e-bike or not since from what IMBA have shown they don't cause any notable amount of trail damage compared to a normal bike. If your local trails are already at maximum capacity due to usage maybe introducing e-bikes isn't a good idea. Don't penalize everyone for it.

Since you like bringing up irrelevant issues why not question some things that undoubtedly cause more trail damage than simply having a pedal assist e-bike.
-Aggressive downhill tires instead of low profile cross country tires
-Hard downhill braking even without skidding
-Skidding
-Roosting corners
-Going off trail/braiding
-Any rider weighing more than 200lbs
-XC racers widening out the trail to find smoother lines
-Downhill riders carrying excessive speed
-People riding in wet conditions
All of these are already happening pretty much everywhere on a daily basis. If you're trails are still holding up than people riding e-bikes will have zero effect on trail degradation.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Sparticus said:


> Okay. But just for fun, I'll play devil's advocate for a moment.
> 
> Back in my endurance racing years, I was riding about 20 hrs/week during training season. (Obviously talking analog bikes here.) Without doubt the duration of many of my training rides exceeded the capacity of any ebike's battery. Not to mention 100 miles just on race day (in my case typically 11-13 hrs). Since "more mileage is more trail damage," should endurance racing (as well as training for it) be banned because it causes too much impact?
> =sParty


@20 hours a week you were a 1 percenter and that ratio will never change.

Probably closer to .01%.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Dirtrider127 said:


> I rode my eBike yesterday. I had fun and enjoyed every minute of it.
> Maybe we should social distance by going for a ride in the open to clear the mind


I did likewise on my leg-powered bike yesterday and plan to do so again today. And tomorrow...

Agree that clearing the mind (as well as the legs) is a good thing. Luckily the weather here in Orygun is currently cooperating.  Nice to see spring springing.
=sParty


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Electric motors deliver more torque than roughly equivalently powered ICE motors, and they are able to do it instantly.


Were you not implying that the torque of an electric motor will cause more trail damage? How can this be taken in any other way what so ever within the context of your reply to Mtbvkk?

If you weren't implying that the instant torque of an electric motor will peal up dirt than I apologize for being mistaken.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

J.B. Weld said:


> @20 hours a week you were a 1 percenter and that ratio will never change.
> 
> Probably closer to .01%.


Agreed. Meanwhile my question remains unanswered. At what point does someone (who?) tell someone else (anyone?) that they're using the outback too much?

If we're strictly talking trail impact per user, then why do equestrians have any right whatsoever to trail access?
=sParty


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> I would happily argue for e-bike access to many mtb trails as long as the distinction between them is kept clear enough that if e-bikes don't end up working out in the eyes of the LM, regular bikes don't share in any potential fallout. The way to do that is to call e-bikes "e-bikes" and admit that since they have a motor, they are not the same thing.
> 
> What's the BFD? Why do most e-bikers insist that they ride on mountain bikers coat-tails as far as access goes? Why can't you just do exactly what mountain bikers did and fight your own battles? I don't recall mountain bike advocates trying to convince people they should just be considered hikers because hikers also have wheels and gears in their watches. Trying to make arguments like that makes e-bikers their own worst enemies, as no LM is going to take someone who compares a drive motor to a fork seriously, nor should they.


What you have there (in your first paragraph) would be just fine but how many "discussions" are had here where many don't want e-bikes on the trails for multiple reasons.

Hate to tell you most of those e-bikers are the mountain bikers that built the trails people want to kick them off of.

See your post (second section) quoted is the BFD, thanks for the example .


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Fajita Dave said:


> Were you not implying that the torque of an electric motor will cause more trail damage? How can this be taken in any other way what so ever within the context of your reply to Mtbvkk?
> 
> If you weren't implying that the instant torque of an electric motor will peal up dirt than I apologize for being mistaken.


Apology accepted.

I don't think Class 1 e-bikes do any more 'damage' to trails than mountain bikes do. 
I'm not really all that worried about Class 2 or 3 either, dependent on local conditions/situations of course. I simply think it's wise for mountain bikers to hang on to our longstanding and hard-won distinction from anything motorized in the eyes of LMs, based on many years of personal experience.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Sparticus said:


> Okay. But just for fun, I'll play devil's advocate for a moment.
> 
> Back in my endurance racing years, I was riding about 20 hrs/week during training season. (Obviously talking analog bikes here.) Without doubt the duration of many of my training rides exceeded the capacity of any ebike's battery. Not to mention 100 miles just on race day (in my case typically 11-13 hrs). Since "more mileage is more trail damage," should endurance racing (as well as training for it) be banned because it causes too much impact?
> =sParty


And now imagine that your bike (and you) traveled a greater number of miles for each hour that you trained.

I'm not trying to ban anyone. I'm simply refuting the bullshit that some are spouting here about eBike riders not causing any more trail damage than the same rider on an actual mountain bike in the same amount of time. It's a lie and I will continue to correct them.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

KenPsz said:


> Why not celebrate the distinction???? Because then you have no where to ride.
> 
> When some traditional mountain bikers stop acting like hikers and horse back riders trying to get e-bikers banded from trails you might get what you request.
> 
> Just having fun seems to no longer be a justification for some in this hobby so they want e-bikes banned since you are not earning your turns.


Hey Ken, I'm sorry you live and ride in a place that harbors such hostility toward ebikes. I'm happy to say that not every locale is like that. So far where I live and ride it's not like wherever you are. Ebikes are largely tolerated here -- just like mountain bikes were when they burst onto the scene back in the 80s. That's not to say mountain bikes were embraced by everyone here -- they were not. But thank goodness they were tolerated.

And since that time -- throughout the past 35ish years -- mountain bikers have become the preeminent trail building an trail maintaining user group here in the PNW. I hope ebikers develop a similar community and are able to accomplish as much as mountain bikers have to benefit multi-user trails.

Here's a video about one of my good friends, fellow rider and singletrack advocate. As well as ebiker.




=sParty


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> What you have there (in your first paragraph) would be just fine but how many "discussions" are had here where many don't want e-bikes on the trails for multiple reasons.
> 
> Hate to tell you most of those e-bikers are the mountain bikers that built the trails people want to kick them off of.
> 
> See your post (second section) quoted is the BFD, thanks for the example .


I know for a fact that is absolutely not the case in this part of the country.
I also highly doubt that 'most' e-bikers are also long term trail builders; numbers simply don't remotely come close to backing that statement up.

What people say online doesn't mean **** unless they're actually LMs. Wasting time arguing about it here is not only a waste of time, it's actually likely counter-productive to your cause, as there's no shortage of e-bikers saying things that can be easily turned against them in situations where it actually matters.

When I wanted to convince my local LMs to allow us to build MTB trails against very vocal opposition, I spent my time educating THEM on the facts, not going on to the Audobon/Sierra Club sites and trying to convince hikers that their watches = motors.

But hey, if people would rather spend time pissing into the wind than getting anything accomplished, that's up to them.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> And now imagine that your bike (and you) traveled a greater number of miles for each hour that you trained.
> 
> I'm not trying to ban anyone. I'm simply refuting the bullshit that some are spouting here about eBike riders not causing any more trail damage than the same rider on an actual mountain bike in the same amount of time. It's a lie and I will continue to correct them.


This who does more damage is such a silly "justification" for trying to restrict/ban e-bikes.

I have seen "serious" riders tear up a wet trail because they "need a ride", where I have seen the guys on e-bikes ask the trail conditions and leave once hey found out it is muddy.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Le Duke said:


> And now imagine that your bike (and you) traveled a greater number of miles for each hour that you trained.
> 
> I'm not trying to ban anyone. I'm simply refuting the bullshit that some are spouting here about eBike riders not causing any more trail damage than the same rider on an actual mountain bike in the same amount of time. It's a lie and I will continue to correct them.


I get it. And what about the ebikers who build &/or maintain more miles of trail than their human powered cycling counterparts?

Still playing devil's advocate. 
=sParty


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Sparticus said:


> Hey Ken, I'm sorry you live and ride in a place that harbors such hostility toward ebikes. I'm happy to say that not every locale is like that. So far where I live and ride it's not like wherever you are. Ebikes are largely tolerated here -- just like mountain bikes were when they burst onto the scene back in the 80s. That's not to say mountain bikes were embraced by everyone here -- they were not. But thank goodness they were tolerated.
> 
> And since that time -- throughout the past 35ish years -- mountain bikers have become the preeminent trail building an trail maintaining user group here in the PNW. I hope ebikers develop a similar community and are able to accomplish as much as mountain bikers have to benefit multi-user trails.
> 
> ...


Here's the thing I don't live somewhere e-bikes are hated, they are being accepted. But LM talk and I fear that areas that dislike e-bikes will influence where I live.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Sparticus said:


> I get it. And what about the ebikers who build &/or maintain more miles of trail than their human powered cycling counterparts?
> 
> Still playing devil's advocate.
> =sParty


I'm assuming the LMs know about this and would assume it's reflected in their policies.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> I know for a fact that is absolutely not the case in this part of the country.
> I also highly doubt that 'most' e-bikers are also long term trail builders; numbers simply don't remotely come close to backing that statement up.
> 
> What people say online doesn't mean **** unless they're actually LMs. Wasting time arguing about it here is not only a waste of time, it's actually likely counter-productive to your cause, as there's no shortage of e-bikers saying things that can be easily turned against them in situations where it actually matters.
> ...


You have a very elitist attitude, I'm very glad I don't have many mountain bikers like you around where I live.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> You have a very elitist attitude, I'm very glad I don't many mountain bikers like you around where I live.


LOL!!! "Elitist" how exactly?

Because I gave actual useful advice based on experience?


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

mlx john said:


> I googled a bit, not extensively though. Have there been trails closed to mountain bikes, or trails threatened with closure because of E-bikes?
> 
> Serious question.
> 
> Really? Are you really building up a strawman argument to score points? You're not here to have a serious conversation on a contentious issue. You've just illuminated that you're nothing but a troll.


In regards to trail access: this is being used against potential mountain bike access in wilderness by the wilderness society. The wilderness society had little to work with before ebikes because the wilderness act is written in a way that gives us a good chance to beat it. Now the wilderness society is making the argument that it's hard to tell the difference between mountain bikes and ebikes so all bikes need to remain banned.

https://www.wilderness.org/articles...ice-keep-motorized-bikes-non-motorized-trails

https://www.wilderness.org/articles...ice-keep-motorized-bikes-non-motorized-trails


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> LOL!!! "Elitist" how exactly?
> 
> Because I gave actual useful advice based on experience?


What useful advice?

I my area your "useful" advice would literally be kick those that gained access and built the trails from the get go.

I have posted it before your attitude sounds just like comments made decades ago by hikers and horse folks (bikes are mechanical thus banned), well those people still hate bikes so there is that.

Why can't you just accept that e-bikes have the same right to the trails that you do and/or welcome them into the family of trail users? I am sure you will give your "because it has a motor" reasoning and we can do the dance around and around.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> Now the wilderness society is making the argument that it's hard to tell the difference between mountain bikes and ebikes so all bikes need to remain banned.


I'm so glad e-bikes weren't around when we were fighting for access around here. The clear and solid line of demarcation between MTBs and any sort of motorized use has been very, very advantageous to MTB access for many years. Anyone who has actually played the trailbuilding game in real life knows this to be true.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> What useful advice?
> 
> I my area your "useful" advice would literally be kick those that gained access and built the trails from the get go.
> 
> ...


How about you open your eyes and go read what I've actually said regarding e-bike access and sharing trails, then come back and apologize for your complete and utter ignorance.

Can people actually not read the words right in front of their faces? Jeezus...


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

slimat99 said:


> In regards to trail access: this is being used against potential mountain bike access in wilderness by the wilderness society. The wilderness society had little to work with before ebikes because the wilderness act is written in a way that gives us a good chance to beat it. Now the wilderness society is making the argument that it's hard to tell the difference between mountain bikes and ebikes so all bikes need to remain banned.


Of course the Wilderness Society will reach for this argument. The don't want bikes -- any bikes -- in Wilderness so these are the lengths they'll go to. Sky is falling arguments that have no bearing on reality.

Morality can't be regulated. Mountain bikers poach Wilderness trails. They do. But not many do. Hikers litter. I found a shredded/deflated rubber raft on the bank of a lake within the Mt. Jefferson Wilderness once.

Unusual cases.

Individuals choose whether they'll break the law or not. For the Wilderness Society to say that ebikes will become a problem within designated Wilderness areas simply because it's hard for "normal" people to tell them from analog bikes is preposterous. It's up to the individual user to self regulate. Shall society assume that every individual that's capable of breaking the law will do so if only they believe they're able to get away with it?

I could easily ride my analog bicycle into a Wilderness area. We have many Wilderness areas here in Oregon. I don't do it. I won't do it.

Ebikers are creating their own legacy. If they break the rules now by riding on trails where they're not allowed, then yeah, I can see how easy it would be for the Wilderness Society to make the case that bikes in Wilderness is a bad idea.

I hope ebikers are not choosing to ride their machines on trails where ebikes are prohibited. Doing so would set a bad precedent. The world is watching.
=sParty


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> How about you open your eyes and go read what I've actually said regarding e-bike access and sharing trails, then come back and apologize for your complete and utter ignorance.
> 
> Can people actually not read the words right in front of their faces? Jeezus...


LOL!!!!! Funny how you seem incapable of having a discussion when your own statements are used again you. So calm down this is nothing but a discussion not a personal fight.

I read what you post and you are talking out of both side of your mouth.
You're quoted above saying two mutually exclusive statements, that is on you.
You can't say you welcome e-bikes then in the next paragraph basically tell them to piss off.

If the distinction is so cut and dry, as you claim, why do some LM have no issues with e-bikes, like in my area. I mean if your ideas are so wide spread (thank god they are not) around here trail access should be restricted and not growing, which it is; E-bikes and all.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> LOL!!!!! Funny how you seem incapable of having a discussion when your own statements are used again you. So calm down this is nothing but a discussion not a personal fight.
> 
> I read what you post and you are talking out of both side of your mouth.
> You're quoted above saying two mutually exclusive statements, that is on you.
> ...


Where did I ever say anything supporting restricting access or banning e-bikes? Please share your examples...good luck trying to find them.

Back to reality, I've said over and over and over that I have no problem sharing trails with e-bikes, but that I so consider them a distinct user group when it comes to management purposes. These are NOT mutually exclusive points of view. For example, I believe mountain bikes should have access to most trails, but I do not try to equivocate mountain biking with hiking.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> Where did I ever say anything supporting restricting access or banning e-bikes? Please share your examples...good luck trying to find them.


This sure sounds like you don't want e-bikes on your trails.

"What's the BFD? Why do most e-bikers insist that they ride on mountain bikers coat-tails as far as access goes? Why can't you just do exactly what mountain bikers did and fight your own battles? I don't recall mountain bike advocates trying to convince people they should just be considered hikers because hikers also have wheels and gears in their watches. Trying to make arguments like that makes e-bikers their own worst enemies, as no LM is going to take someone who compares a drive motor to a fork seriously, nor should they."



> Back to reality, I've said over and over and over that I have no problem sharing trails with e-bikes, but that I so consider them a distinct user group when it comes to management purposes. These are NOT mutually exclusive points of view. For example, I believe mountain bikes should have access to most trails, but I do not try to equivocate mountain biking with hiking.


I fully support that notion but then you go on to quotes like the one above that give a very different impression.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> I fully support that notion but then you go on to quotes like the one above that give a very different impression.


The impression that I don't think blathering endlessly in an online forum is as effective as dealing directly with the land managers you're hoping to convince?

That isn't in any way specific to e-bikes, it's what's known as 'common sense'.

You come up with those examples of me saying I want e-bikes banned yet, or are you ready to admit you were wrong after seeing I've actually said the opposite (as well as strongly arguing against the whole 'purist' angle) countless times here over a number of years?


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Fajita Dave said:


> Context is important. This is an e-bike section of the forum. You brought up a ICE engine to make a direct (but incorrect) comparison to how an e-bike will tear up trails. Troll somewhere else


That was me. But I wasn't implying that e-bikes would tear up trails. I was suggesting that if it had evolved differently with 50cc motors, would we have been so accepting? I realise the power delivery is different, that petrol provides more power, though quite a bit less torque it would seem. 
But if the Levo was a petrol instead of electric we would not even be having this debate. Yet for me, they are the same thing. Both have motors.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

What does any of this have to do with Rob Warner and his like of e-bikes? It turned into a pile-on (pretty quickly, literally the second post) of the anti E-bikers waiting to pounce the first chance they get.

E-bike derangement syndrome.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mudguard said:


> That was me. But I wasn't implying that e-bikes would tear up trails. I was suggesting that if it had evolved differently with 50cc motors, would we have been so accepting? I realise the power delivery is different, that petrol provides more power, though quite a bit less torque it would seem.
> But if the Levo was a petrol instead of electric we would not even be having this debate. Yet for me, they are the same thing. Both have motors.


I agree. Obviously, Class 1 power is well below 50cc power, but ICEs can also easily restricted down a far as power goes and aren't likely to do any more damage than similarly powered electric bikes.

Cue e-bikers saying that they don't want ICE bikers sharing the trails regardless of power level in 3...2...1...


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

slapheadmofo said:


> I agree. Obviously, Class 1 power is well below 50cc power, but ICEs can also easily restricted down a far as power goes and aren't likely to do any more damage than similarly powered electric bikes.
> 
> Cue e-bikers saying that they don't want ICE bikers sharing the trails regardless of power level in 3...2...1...


LOL! Ahem... please make room for my Honda XR400! 
=sParty


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Sparticus said:


> LOL! Ahem... please make room for my Honda XR400!
> =sParty


Of course! You know we love us some moto!


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## Mtbvkk (Sep 13, 2017)

Sparticus said:


> Back in the '70s there were a couple of TV shows called "The Six Million Dollar Man" and "The Bionic Woman." These series' premise according to Wikipedia:
> "The Six Million Dollar Man is an American science fiction and action television series, running from 1973 to 1978, about a former astronaut, USAF Colonel Steve Austin, portrayed by Lee Majors. Austin has superhuman strength due to bionic implants and is employed as a secret agent by a fictional U.S. government office titled OSI. The series was based on the Martin Caidin novel Cyborg, which was the working title of the series during pre-production.
> A spin-off television series, The Bionic Woman, featuring the lead female character Jaime Sommers, ran from 1976 to 1978."
> 
> ...


So do you call enduro, downhill, trail, cross country, full suspension, hard tails mountain bikes or not? A mountain with pedal assist is just a different kind of mountain bike. This huge will to say it's not mountain biking without ever trying one Is what people are having an issue with. If I got a full suspension e mountain bike and had never ridden before, I'd need to take the exact same classes and training a "regular" mountain biker under your definition does. It's just a different kind of mountain bike, the same way a downhill bike is that targets a different focus on the type of riding.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

mlx john said:


> E-bike derangement syndrome.


It's a mountainbike website?


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Mtbvkk said:


> A mountainbike with pedal assist is just a different kind of moped.


Fixed it for you. A KTM E Ride is just another kind of bike. Why shouldn't I be allowed to ride it on trails? It has (non rotating) pedals.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mtbvkk said:


> So do you call enduro, downhill, trail, cross country, full suspension, hard tails mountain bikes or not? A mountain with pedal assist is just a different kind of mountain bike. This huge will to say it's not mountain biking without ever trying one Is what people are having an issue with. If I got a full suspension e mountain bike and had never ridden before, I'd need to take the exact same classes and training a "regular" mountain biker under your definition does. It's just a different kind of mountain bike, the same way a downhill bike is that targets a different focus on the type of riding.


This apparently boils down to you trying to say 'lets pretend the motor is not a motor'.
Try making this argument to a land manager and let us know how it goes.


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## Mtbvkk (Sep 13, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> I would happily argue for e-bike access to many mtb trails as long as the distinction between them is kept clear enough that if e-bikes don't end up working out in the eyes of the LM, regular bikes don't share in any potential fallout. The way to do that is to call e-bikes "e-bikes" and admit that since they have a motor, they are not the same thing.
> 
> What's the BFD? Why do most e-bikers insist that they ride on mountain bikers coat-tails as far as access goes? Why can't you just do exactly what mountain bikers did and fight your own battles? I don't recall mountain bike advocates trying to convince people they should just be considered hikers because hikers also have wheels and gears in their watches. Trying to make arguments like that makes e-bikers their own worst enemies, as no LM is going to take someone who compares a drive motor to a fork seriously, nor should they.


I don't own an e-mountain bike yet but I hope to. And I consider myself a mountain biker. I currently have a full suspension and a hardtail. Based on the time of year and trails I'm attempting I decide which bike I want to take. If I had an e-bike, it would be just one more choice on the same set of trails. It's just another mountain bike.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> But it is most certainly is relevant, and should have been addressed in the discussion portion of the article as a topic for further study. They obviously took pains to reduce the moto mileage, so why didn't they increase the eBike mileage?
> 
> But, of course, it wasn't. Why? Just about every pro-eBike argument here involves something along the lines of more distance for the same or less effort. You've made it yourself in this very thread, when you argued that they'd be able to stay in Z2 longer and thus put in more miles/hours on the bike without burnout.
> 
> My point, which was apparently lost on you, is that if you compare the mileage one rider is capable of doing on a normal mountain bike in a given time frame (say, two hours), and that which that same rider is capable of doing on an eBike, the mileage will be higher on the eBike. Eliminating all other variables, more mileage is more trail damage.


And more downhill fun.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mtbvkk said:


> I don't own an e-mountain bike yet but I hope to. And I consider myself a mountain biker. I currently have a full suspension and a hardtail. Based on the time of year and trails I'm attempting I decide which bike I want to take. If I had an e-bike, it would be just one more choice on the same set of trails. It's just another mountain bike.


What is your experience level as far trail access and advocacy issues go?
Have you spent much time in meetings with LMs, environmental/conservation agents, anti-mtb activists, etc? What tactics did you find most successful in changing entrenched opinions in order to open trails? Were concerns about motorized use raised and how did you counter them?


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## Mtbvkk (Sep 13, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> This apparently boils down to you trying to say 'lets pretend the motor is not a motor'.
> Try making this argument to a land manager and let us know how it goes.


No, you're saying that, and right now we're talking amongst mountain bikers, not land managers.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mtbvkk said:


> No, you're saying that, and right now we're talking amongst mountain bikers, not land managers.


Mountain bikers don't make the rules, land managers do. You can ramble on a about enduro and downhill and all sorts of silly esoteric BS all you want, but the thing they're going to keep bring the conversation around will involve the motorization. If you don't have your ducks in a row as far as giving good responses to pointed questions in that regard, all the deflection in the world you will get nowhere.

As I said before, who cares what mountain bikers think? If you want trail access, the people you need to convince are LMs. My points are based on that reality, and contain advice I feel e-bikers should take into account if they're serious about actually getting more access and not just pissing into the wind on the internet.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Mtbvkk said:


> It's just a different kind of mountain bike, the same way a downhill bike is that targets a different focus on the type of riding.


Your argument is absurd. The dividing line is the motor, everyone knows this. Stop being ridiculous.



Mtbvkk said:


> This huge will to say it's not mountain biking without ever trying one Is what people are having an issue with.


Who are you accusing of never trying an ebike? Me? I've tried one. In fact, I own one. I also own about 10 bicycles from road to touring and mountain bikes from singlespeed to enduro. Plus I've owned motorcycles -- both street and off-road -- since I was 14. Let's see, that makes 52 years of being neck deep into riding virtually every kind of two-wheeled contraption anyone can think of.

Yeah, I've got an ebike, too. OMG! I'm one of YOU! {gasp}

Did I mention I've got an ebike? Yeah. Well guess what Mtbvkk, I know my ebike is an ebike. Yes, I can actually tell the difference between an ebike and a bike without a motor. You know, a bike that has to be pedaled using nothing but one's own muscles. That's what mountain bikes are.

Even Rob Warner embraces and celebrates the difference. Watch the vid again. He extols the difference (the motor) over and over.

I don't ride my ebike on trails if ebikes are prohibited, by the way. I don't just try to elbow my way in, claiming to be the same thing as something I'm not. I respect the rules whenever I'm riding any of my two-wheeled contraptions whether they include a motor or not. I'm not going to screw things up for the rest of my mates who ride, this goes for ebikes or anything else.
=sParty


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Sparticus again, again.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

A blast from the past:

"hey, those snow boarders can't be on the slopes tearing down the hill outta control. The slopes are for skiers only. get off my hill!"
:eekster:

Go ride whatever bike you want


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

Dirtrider127 said:


> The slopes are for skiers only.


:thumbsup:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Dirtrider127 said:


> A blast from the past:
> 
> "hey, those snow boarders can't be on the slopes tearing down the hill outta control. The slopes are for skiers only. get off my hill!"
> :eekster:
> ...


Yup. Everyone should just ride whatever they want, wherever they want.
What could go wrong?


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

i used to blindly think most people here were male. judging by all the bunched up panties in this thread, i'm not so sure anymore...


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Too bad there is so much fear mongering going on in this thread that was simply about how much fun Rob Warner has on an ebike. It’s a genuine feeling that people who embrace class 1 ebikes share and the reason why ebike sales are growing everywhere. 

If you don’t like ebikes, that’s fine, if you live for the climbs that’s fine, if you feel like you need to earn your downs, that’s fine! 

But here are some facts:
A 50cc engine is about 3 times the wattage of a class 1 ebike!
Class 1 ebike do not create more erosion to the trail system, plus most ebikes rides on 2.5 tires or bigger. These tires don’t sink and just hook up with incredible grip, especially when compared to 2.3 or smaller tires.
Class 1 ebikes do not roost on acceleration! 
The “E” in front of bike, should be enough to let people no it’s different then a normal bike.


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