# The perfect liner short



## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

A perfect liner short would have:
1. a nice chamois
2. a light, airy fabric with a non-compression fit that doesn't feel soggy when you sweat
3. no gripper elastic at the legs, because this is for mountain biking and we (men) don't shave our legs you idiots.

As far as I can tell, this liner short doesn't exist. All of the dentist-priced liner shorts with a primo chamois (7mesh, Kitsbow, Dirtbaggies, Assos, etc) have satanic leg-hair-gripper elastic. Kitsbow's $125 Origin liner is the worst -- grippy legs, sausage-casing compression, and an oddly abrasive chamois.

Troy Lee's used to be pretty awesome (good-not-great chamois) and a steal at $40, til they added gripper elastic too. Jesus. Ditto Patagonia's. The Pearl Izumi 1:1's look good on paper but reviewers say they're uncomfortable.

This isn't that hard, apparel designers! You can do it! If you do, you'll sell a bunch of them! Get on it.

(Is it possible that I'm the only mountain biker on earth who hates gripper elastic? Perhaps. I don't care. Everyone thought narrow bars were a killer idea for a few years, too. Popular idiocy is still idiocy.)


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I like the compression and the grippers, seems like the compression fit is kind of integral for keeping the chamois from moving around to me. 

Sorry, I'm no help at all.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

What about the zoic offerings? https://zoic.com/mens/bottoms-men/l...q1vJdP-pReiGKHsYjvToCPJzpxBYydOBoCjcMQAvD_BwE they have a lot of options and looks like they just use elastic gripper on the leg and waist like underwear.


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## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

DirtBaggies have barely grippy grippers. I'm a hairy legged mountain biker, designed them for my legs and have never heard any complaints about this.


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## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

OldManBike said:


> ...
> 
> 3. no gripper elastic at the legs, because this is for mountain biking and we (men) don't shave our legs you idiots.
> 
> ....


Without the gripper elastic the chamois would not properly stay in place and also over the course of the ride, the shorts would ride up and you would be wearing "briefs" by the end. You need the chamois to stay in place if it is to do its job over the course of a ride where you will stand and sit numerous times.

I know numerous shorts come with sub par liner shorts. My solution has always been to cut out the liner shorts if they are non removable and just wear my regular better quality lycra underneath my MTB shorts. This works great for me


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

I like grippers so they dont ride up and bunch up. Butnl of course im probably not as hairy as most.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

On the first versions of DirtBaggies there were no silicone grippers on the elastic leg cuffs; they didn't ride up. Over time however I found lighter, more breathable, stretchier elastics were available, and that a small amount of silicone required a less constrictive fit. So now I use a custom, less silicone infested gripper than is found on roady-spec shorts.

Because I disliked very grippy leg cuffs, I started out with an idealized notion that gripperless was the ultimate solution. Reality doesn't always jive with idealized theories though, experience brought me to a middle ground.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

My feelings are quite as strong as the OPs, but I generally agree with all his points. Two suggestions:

1. I have a set of PI bibs purchased from REI that have a decent pad, not too compressive and instead of silicone grippers, they have a wide seam of what seems to be the same basic material but with slightly more compression. The don't squeeze your thighs too much, but do stay in place.

2. 100%. I have a pair of their liners, nicer pad than the PI and a similar setup at the bottom of the thigh.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Brodino said:


> Without the gripper elastic the chamois would not properly stay in place and also over the course of the ride, the shorts would ride up and you would be wearing "briefs" by the end. You need the chamois to stay in place if it is to do its job over the course of a ride where you will stand and sit numerous times.


I have owned numerous pairs of chamois liners with no gripper elastic at the leg openings, worn regularly over several years. The number of times they have ridden up on my legs is zero.

Maybe other people have different-shaped legs. But I suspect the more accurate explanation is that the leg-shavers prefer grippers and so MTB-apparel designers just lemming along.

Your theory that leg-gripper elastic is necessary to keep the chamois in place is novel, clever, and bat-****.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Tim-ti said:


> On the first versions of DirtBaggies there were no silicone grippers on the elastic leg cuffs; they didn't ride up. Over time however I found lighter, more breathable, stretchier elastics were available, and that a small amount of silicone required a less constrictive fit. So now I use a custom, less silicone infested gripper than is found on roady-spec shorts.
> 
> Because I disliked very grippy leg cuffs, I started out with an idealized motion that gripperless was the ultimate solution. Reality doesn't always jive with idealized theories though, experience brought me to a middle ground.


Interesting! That's the first reasonable-seeming explanation I've heard. I've never noticed gripperless cuffs feeling heavy or less breathable, but your explanation makes me curious to try yours. Unfortunately for me I prefer shorts to bibs except in the winter.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Blatant said:


> My feelings are quite as strong as the OPs, but I generally agree with all his points. Two suggestions:
> 
> 1. I have a set of PI bibs purchased from REI that have a decent pad, not too compressive and instead of silicone grippers, they have a wide seam of what seems to be the same basic material but with slightly more compression. The don't squeeze your thighs too much, but do stay in place.
> 
> 2. 100%. I have a pair of their liners, nicer pad than the PI and a similar setup at the bottom of the thigh.


Thanks for the suggestions. I tried the PI liners a few years back and didn't get along with the chamois. I hadn't really noticed the 100% liners before but will keep an eye out for them now, might be just what I'm looking for.


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## Bicycle019 (Jan 23, 2004)

Pearl has a new liner for this year, has a new chamois and no leg gripper. First update to this in a few seasons, feels better than the older ones, plus the smooth fabric on the front edge slides really easy under my shell shorts while pedaling. https://www.pearlizumi.com/US/en/Sh...Liners/Men's_SELECT_Liner_Short/p/19111802021


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## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

OldManBike said:


> I have owned numerous pairs of chamois liners with no gripper elastic at the leg openings, worn regularly over several years. The number of times they have ridden up on my legs is zero.
> 
> Maybe other people have different-shaped legs. But I suspect the more accurate explanation is that the leg-shavers prefer grippers and so MTB-apparel designers just lemming along.
> 
> Your theory that leg-gripper elastic is necessary to keep the chamois in place is novel, clever, and bat-****.


For me without the leg gripper elastic, they would ride up my thighs definitely but I suspect we are built very differently hence your experience. Normally when the leg elastic starts giving out, I retire the shorts since they begin bunching up which is uncomfortable for me. I am curious, what is this brand I can look up of these shorts that you owned that do not have gripper elastic and still stay in place? I am always on the lookout for new stuff to try...


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## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

Bicycle019 said:


> Pearl has a new liner for this year, has a new chamois and no leg gripper. First update to this in a few seasons, feels better than the older ones, plus the smooth fabric on the front edge slides really easy under my shell shorts while pedaling. https://www.pearlizumi.com/US/en/Sh...Liners/Men's_SELECT_Liner_Short/p/19111802021


Interesting. I will have to give these a shot. I normally prefer just regular Lycra underneath my shorts but these look promising.


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## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

OldManBike said:


> Interesting! That's the first reasonable-seeming explanation I've heard. I've never noticed gripperless cuffs feeling heavy or less breathable, but your explanation makes me curious to try yours. Unfortunately for me I prefer shorts to bibs except in the winter.


It's not something I'd noticed either, or dreamed that I'd need, but an elastic manufacturer sent me samples of a very thin elastic, which was wonderful - except that it had lots of gripper stuff all over it. Turning the elastic gripper-side out required a tighter, slightly less comfortable fit (because the elastic is quite slick), so we arrived at the middle-ground lo-grip custom elastic.


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## matt.s67 (Nov 4, 2016)

The liners that came with my Fly Racing shorts are extremely lightweight but comfortable. Padding in the right places and very well ventilated, and they don't rip my leg hairs out like other liners do.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

I actually really like my Zoic liners that came with my shorts. They have more of a mesh type material vs. a spandex type you would see on something like PIs. They do have the gel/silicone around the leg cuffs but my problem is that I have larger thighs/quads so most all liners are type on me. The Zoic probably are the ones that breath the best, have a nice albeit flat-ish chamois, and stay in place. 

Really wish liners and bibs weren't so damn expensive. I am cheap so I normally shop Sierra Trading Post for this stuff. Should be seeing some good deals in a couple months here as the season starts winding down and places are getting rid of inventory. Use Gear Obsession if you do that and order online as you get some money back.


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## Tim22 (Sep 11, 2010)

love em https://www.amazon.com/Zoic-Mens-Pr...60_SR115,160_&refRID=RB7097VXHZP0RRY1XM7P#Ask


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Brodino said:


> My solution has always been to cut out the liner shorts if they are non removable and just wear my regular better quality lycra underneath my MTB shorts. This works great for me


This has been my solution for many years now as well. I've been using the Pearl Izumi Pro short and it works perfectly for me. However my 2 pair have seen better days now and they've been discontinued/replaced. Anyone have an alternative that won't cost an arm and a leg?


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## rockhop (Mar 22, 2006)

Voler under Zoic Ether shorts:thumbsup:


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Tim-ti said:


> DirtBaggies have barely grippy grippers. I'm a hairy legged mountain biker, designed them for my legs and have never heard any complaints about this.


I had a look at your site. Do you have any "shorts" liners or are they all bibs?


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## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Only bibs, I started the company because MTB underbibs didn't exist and I felt strongly that they should.

Here's my explanation of why I think bibs are immensely superior: dirtbaggies.com/pages/f-a-q


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## vtdavey (Feb 16, 2008)

OldManBike;
Perhaps. I don't care. Everyone thought narrow bars were a killer idea for a few years said:


> Perhaps the West Coast has too much influence on popular idiocy in cycling clothing. On the East Coast we are riding in a different world with 93% humidity and 90'F temps. How does it make sense to wear two pairs of shorts at the same time? All three issues could be solved in one intergrated chamois lined pair of semi-baggy shorts... yet there is no such thing? Yes the chamois would float a bit - but wouldn't the direct air venting out weigh this? I am willing to test ride a pair if DirtBaggies is willing to make a pair.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Yes, bib liners are a bit pricey, but they last for years. I will not buy anything but bib liners with pockets. Once you have bib pockets it seems pointless to not have them.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

vtdavey said:


> How does it make sense to wear two pairs of shorts at the same time? All three issues could be solved in one intergrated chamois lined pair of semi-baggy shorts... yet there is no such thing? Yes the chamois would float a bit - but wouldn't the direct air venting out weigh this?


Maybe it's just me, but freeballin' and bicycle seats ain't happenin'!

So, if you need to wear some supportive underwear anyway, then why not liners? Amongst other things, the chamois serves as the slip plane against the saddle, instead of your skin. A loose fitting chamois is practically worthless.


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## mykle (Dec 25, 2013)

I love my specialized swat liner. Light, elastic and breathable!

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Bluegill (Mar 28, 2018)

Tim-ti said:


> Only bibs, I started the company because MTB underbibs didn't exist and I felt strongly that they should.
> 
> Here's my explanation of why I think bibs are immensely superior: dirtbaggies.com/pages/f-a-q


I've never tried bibs and maybe I should, but it's a business mistake to limit your company to only bibs and not true shorts. You shouldn't dictate the market to your customers. I certainly don't know your business but I'd bet you'd see double digit growth if you offered shorts. Your company name is great, perfect for bibs, outer shorts, and inner/outer cargo style shorts.

I still just ride with a typical compression chamois short with the hated gripper cuffs and a loose pair of mesh gym shorts over. I'm in Arizona so it's always freakin hot. If the grippers piss me off I give them a roll up to put the silicone on the outside. But damn, they're always too tight on the thighs. I've always viewed it as a necessary evil to keep the ass padding in place. Going to try a few shorts linked on this thread though.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

vtdavey said:


> Perhaps the West Coast has too much influence on popular idiocy in cycling clothing. On the East Coast we are riding in a different world with 93% humidity and 90'F temps. How does it make sense to wear two pairs of shorts at the same time? All three issues could be solved in one intergrated chamois lined pair of semi-baggy shorts... yet there is no such thing? Yes the chamois would float a bit - but wouldn't the direct air venting out weigh this? I am willing to test ride a pair if DirtBaggies is willing to make a pair.


I'm no expert in the vast market of short liners, but the liners that come in shorts from Performance are mesh. It doesn't seem to make much difference to me though so i stick with my regular lycra shorts under my "shell' shorts.


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## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

As I said, I started the company because I wanted something that didn't exist. If I'd wanted waistband shorts I could have gone to the store and bought some.

It sounds like you're dissatisfied with waistband shorts though, I kinda hear it like this: "Dear Mr. Ford, While I've not ridden in one of your four wheeled contraptions, I'm writing to let you know that you're making a business mistake by not also producing faster horses. I've always been frustrated by how slow and hungry true horses are, I keep riding them and I hate it. Anyway I'm going to try some other types of horse linked on this thread".

If I had shareholders, I'm sure they'd agree with you that I should make waistband shorts.



Bluegill said:


> I've never tried bibs and maybe I should, but it's a business mistake to limit your company to only bibs and not true shorts. You shouldn't dictate the market to your customers. I certainly don't know your business but I'd bet you'd see double digit growth if you offered shorts. Your company name is great, perfect for bibs, outer shorts, and inner/outer cargo style shorts.
> 
> I still just ride with a typical compression chamois short with the hated gripper cuffs and a loose pair of mesh gym shorts over. I'm in Arizona so it's always freakin hot. If the grippers piss me off I give them a roll up to put the silicone on the outside. But damn, they're always too tight on the thighs. I've always viewed it as a necessary evil to keep the ass padding in place. Going to try a few shorts linked on this thread though.


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## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

I like your term 'slip plane', I'm stealing it! I've been using the term 'prosthetic callous', which sometimes causes more confusion than clarification.


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## Bluegill (Mar 28, 2018)

Tim-ti said:


> If I had shareholders, I'm sure they'd agree with you that I should make waistband shorts.


This was pretty much my point. Of course it's up to you what you do with your business.

I also own a horse (daughter's hobby, turning into profession) and I'd take the four wheeled contraption any day. Much cheaper!


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## stiksandstones (Oct 7, 2004)

OldManBike said:


> A perfect liner short would have:
> 1. a nice chamois
> 2. a light, airy fabric with a non-compression fit that doesn't feel soggy when you sweat
> 3. no gripper elastic at the legs, because this is for mountain biking and we (men) don't shave our legs you idiots.
> ...


TLD has gone through numerous liner shorts, with numerous pads (cheap china pad, to today's italian premium TMF pad) but our latest premium liner short, with the TMF carbon pad is my favorite we have made. I do not shave legs and prefer this leg cuff over years past, because its thin fibers of silicone within the yarn to create some grip and I have zero problems pinching hair, etc, and they dont ride up which is not good either.

Your distaste for silicone grippers is accurate, because it's been done wrong for years, but many of us (TLD included) have figured out how to give some grip, without grabbing hair.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

stiksandstones said:


> TLD has gone through numerous liner shorts, with numerous pads (cheap china pad, to today's italian premium TMF pad) but our latest premium liner short, with the TMF carbon pad is my favorite we have made. I do not shave legs and prefer this leg cuff over years past, because its thin fibers of silicone within the yarn to create some grip and I have zero problems pinching hair, etc, and they dont ride up which is not good either.
> 
> Your distaste for silicone grippers is accurate, because it's been done wrong for years, but many of us (TLD included) have figured out how to give some grip, without grabbing hair.


Interesting, appreciate your reply. I haven't tried the current TLD liners and will keep an eye out now.

My TLD Ruckus shorts are still my all-time favorite outer shorts -- tough, light, comfortable stretch, not soggy when wet, great fit, right length, good pockets, nice looking, you name it.

But the liners that came with them, yikes. They were so bad that, honestly, I just stopped paying attention to TLD for liners. That was a couple years ago. Glad to hear you guys righted that ship.


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## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

I've been using the Zoic Premium liners for awhile now and like them. TBH most of what I've had if it was good hasn't lasted long or sucked right out the package. Fox ones fall apart, Royal and Fly both just didn't last, the cheaper ones feel like your rubbing sand on you taint and ass cause they are more foam than anything.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Without a doubt, the Assos have been the best that I've tried.
https://www.assos.com/h-rallyboxer-s7?quantity=1&g=h-rallyboxer-s7_Block Black-1-M.jpg&color=110

Yes they're expensive but they last for quite some time. I've used TLD, Zoic, AStars, Fox....the Assos are significantly better


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## stiksandstones (Oct 7, 2004)

OldManBike said:


> Interesting, appreciate your reply. I haven't tried the current TLD liners and will keep an eye out now.
> 
> My TLD Ruckus shorts are still my all-time favorite outer shorts -- tough, light, comfortable stretch, not soggy when wet, great fit, right length, good pockets, nice looking, you name it.
> 
> But the liners that came with them, yikes. They were so bad that, honestly, I just stopped paying attention to TLD for liners. That was a couple years ago. Glad to hear you guys righted that ship.


Yeah, we were liner challenged in the past, but, those days are behind us-strangely enough, plenty of people raved about them-but I am quite a chamois snob and I am happy with the latest models from Italy with TMF. Thanks man!


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

This doesn't fit the OP's desires, but my favorites are the Club Ride Woodchuck liner.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

stiksandstones said:


> TLD has gone through numerous liner shorts, with numerous pads (cheap china pad, to today's italian premium TMF pad) but our latest premium liner short, with the TMF carbon pad is my favorite we have made. I do not shave legs and prefer this leg cuff over years past, because its thin fibers of silicone within the yarn to create some grip and I have zero problems pinching hair, etc, and they dont ride up which is not good either.
> 
> Your distaste for silicone grippers is accurate, because it's been done wrong for years, but many of us (TLD included) have figured out how to give some grip, without grabbing hair.


I literally just got a new set of TLD Skyline Race shorts with chamois and after going on one ride I've just thrown the liner in the bin, absolutely rubbish! This mustn't be the new one I'm guessing?


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## Sydneycl (Jan 10, 2019)

I like the Polaris Pro Liner, it has a great chamois pad and has awesome ventilation.


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## abaughman (Aug 25, 2018)

I am not a guy, but I went through a bunch on liners as well. From what I tried I like the FOX ones. Only have been able to find them with the shorts. They don’t have the leg gripper stuff.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

abaughman said:


> I am not a guy, but I went through a bunch on liners as well. From what I tried I like the FOX ones. Only have been able to find them with the shorts. They don't have the leg gripper stuff.


My wife has a few different nice ones, and the ones she likes best are the Yeti Ruby liners.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Blatant said:


> My feelings are quite as strong as the OPs, but I generally agree with all his points. Two suggestions:
> 
> ***
> 
> 2. 100%. I have a pair of their liners, nicer pad than the PI and a similar setup at the bottom of the thigh.


Thanks for this suggestion, I picked up a pair of these on sale and like them.


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## Andeh (Jul 30, 2014)

OldManBike said:


> Thanks for this suggestion, I picked up a pair of these on sale and like them.


Likewise, bought 2 pair. They're perfect.


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