# A bit of Ebay Drama...



## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

Hope you guys get a few chuckles out of this silliness 

Saw this auction a while back, got the hots for the frame, and placed it on my watch list. Ran home yesterday just in time, placed a bid I could afford, (but was sure would lose), at the absolute last second, and unbelievably won. Then the drama started....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200436087354&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Here is the message I got right after the auction ended 

Subject: joshmartino has sent a question about item #200436087354, that ended on Feb-11-10 15:32:02 PST - 1995 GT Psyclone 19" TrueTemper GTX Rare MTB Frame! Received: Feb-11-10 
From: joshmartino Expires: Feb-11-11 
To: neverenoughjunk 
ItemId: 200436087354

Dear neverenoughjunk,

Hello,

I was informed that the frame for auction may not be authentic. Therefore, I decided to NOT sell the frame (which is why I removed all bids prior to the sale.) I will NOT be shipping you the frame, so please do NOT send me payment. We will resolve this transaction through ebay's resolution process.

Thanks and I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

- joshmartino Answer the question

1995 GT Psyclone 19" TrueTemper GTX Rare MTB Frame! 
Item Id: 200436087354 
End time: Feb-11-10 15:32:02 PST 
Seller: 
joshmartino (57) 
100.0% Positive Feedback 
Member since Feb-03-03 in United States



Oh well, can't make it right, so I might as well share my frustration....

Steve


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

This was my reply..... 


Dear joshmartino,

hello, fake or not, it's a very cool frame that I would like to ride, which is why I bid and won. What will it take to get you to complete the sale?
thanks,
Steve


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

Then I got a "request to cancel" from the seller, followed by this:


Dear neverenoughjunk,

Hello,

I was informed that the frame for auction may not be authentic. Therefore, I decided to NOT sell the frame (which is why I removed all bids prior to the sale.) I will NOT be shipping you the frame, so please do NOT send me payment. We will resolve this transaction through ebay's resolution process.

Thanks and I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.


- joshmartino 



:skep:


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

My futile reply  :



Dear joshmartino,

Hello Josh,

I appreciate your concerns, but I feel sure the frame is as described. I am not worried about the possibility of the frame's structural defects, or it's history/authenticity. I would very much like to complete our contractual sale, and I assure you I am a reasonable man. What was your intent when you originally listed the frame? I would assume it was to sell a frame you no longer desired to own at a price that made you comfortable...(while I am sure that price was not $50), please understand my position. I had the frame set to watch, waited to place my bid, and was thrilled to win. 
I ask again, what you may need to pave the way to progress?

Thank you for your concerns,

Steve


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

Then got:

Dear neverenoughjunk,

Hi Steve,

Three other individuals who were bidding on the frame said the same thing - unfortunately, I canceled their bids before the auction was over under the assumption that I would not sell the frame to anyone. It would be immoral, unfair, and illogical to sell the frame at this stage to a singular buyer without knowing its origin. I haven't even taken the bike into a shop to ensure it's structurally sound - in the event that it is a fake and somehow compromised, I would be unable to sell it at all under the auspices that it was OK to ride. I will be contacting two old GT framebuilders to see if they recognize the bike - when I find out more information about its origin, I'd be more than happy to contact you and we could arrange a transaction of some sort. I will consider you first on the list, given the other buyers were located in Germany. I truly apologize about the situation, but in order to retain neutral on ebay I have to treat every bidder equally, and that means not selling the frame at this point. Please contact me at [/email] so I can get your email address to follow-up after I do my homework.

Kind Regards,

Josh Martino

:skep: :skep: :skep: :skep:

and this:

Dear neverenoughjunk,

Hi Steve,

I'm not really sure how I'd like to proceed, given the situation I'm currently in. There's a chance that the frame is either very valuable or not, depending on its true history. I know that the frame was approaching a sale price of at least $400 given the level of interest (65 people were "watching" the auction) before it ended, and I had a guaranteed bid of at least $305. Officially you got "lucky" because I removed the previous bidders, yet ebay's resolution center suggested that plan of action based upon the situation (unfortunately it wouldn't allow me to end the auction early.) I hesitate to sell you the frame because it would be unfair to the other bidders whom I removed from the auction (one person offered me $350+shipping after the auction was over, regardless of whether or not it was a "fake." Upon further research of auction rules I discovered that I could indeed be held liable for violating the terms of use by either selling the frame to you or not selling the frame, however by selling it to you I run the risk of not obtaining compensation for the true value of the item.

If you feel that the frame is as described, and is as valuable as everyone seems to believe, then I'm sure you can offer an amount that would be fair. I have to tell you that I've already submitted an inquiry with a frame builder by the name of Mark Nobilette who used to work for GT in the 90s, and I am awaiting his response. From the look of things, there's a good chance that Mark is indeed the builder of the frame in question, which would make it worth every penny. In all fairness, I'm not worried about selling the frame as stated earlier - I just don't want to get fleeced because I was unable to end the auction at my own will.

Hopefully this answers your question - I guess it all comes down to how valuable it is to you. My apologies for all this, who knew ebay could be so difficult?

Thanks,

Josh

:skep: :skep: :skep: :skep: :skep: :skep:


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## Zoke2 (Nov 16, 2007)

sounds like he found someone else who offered him big bucks for the frame


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## nuck_chorris (Jun 6, 2008)

"Dear Steve I am a Nigerian prince ........"


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

What an idiot that guy is.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

That's too bad. It was a cool frame. I was watching and wondered what happened to the price at the end.


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

This was the topper  



Dear neverenoughjunk,

Hi Steve,

I don't know why you denied the transaction cancellation, but I am unable to send you the frame as it is no longer in my possession. My apologies again for not making this clear - DO NOT SEND ME MONEY, AS I AM UNABLE TO SEND YOU THE FRAME. Consider the following statement as an official agreement:

If you, Steve, "neverenoughjunk," send me money in an attempt to pay me for an item that is no longer for sale (nor in my possession,) your money will be refunded. I will not accept payment as I have done everything in my power to cancel the transaction PRIOR to your bid, and therefore I am no longer liable to complete the transaction. If you did not read the updated posting correctly prior to bidding, it is your own fault. 

Regards,

Josh




Drama, drama, drama....and a bit of greed  ...guess it's true what they say...if seems too good to be true, it probably is   


At least for a few minutes, I thought I had a really nice frame on the way :thumbsup: .




Cheers, and hope you got a chucle out of this mess,


Steve


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## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

It's not me...I didn't make him an offer behind the scenes.... but I can almost assure you that this frame will show up on the German forum or perhaps amongst the Illuminati in about 6-10 days. Definitely a "one-off" frame with the funky wishbone triple triangle, the socket style rear dropouts and the internal seat clamp. Forrest Yelverton or Mark Nobilette would surely remember this frame as it's far different from anything else they were producing at the time.

I guess the other thing that is funny or odd about this frame is that the seller knew so little about the frame and the history of it and the Psyclone model which makes you wonder how he ever acquired it.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Doesn't ebay have rules for sellers pulling stunts like this? File a complaint with ebay. You bid and won. If he wanted to cancel all the bids, he should have done so before the auction ended, and picked the "end auction early" option.


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

Sorry Steve, it was me.....when I recieve it and build it up, I'll be sure to post pics.

*NOT!*

dirty deal by that seller, but I think you are out of luck if you think E-
bay will do anything for you.


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

This guy is a real piece of work: :nono: 




Dear neverenoughjunk,

Hi Steve,

If I wanted to sell the frame, I would've sold it for the $400 it was approaching on the auction. I removed ALL bidders prior to the end of the auction, and then you went and bid with only 5 seconds left. Did you not wonder why the price dropped from $305 to $49.99 in a matter of minutes?

You seem to be the only person confused about the situation. There's no way I would sell you the frame for only $50 when other people were willing to pay significantly more for it, regardless of its authenticity. I didn't care how much people were willing to pay - I wanted to find out for myself. Yes, there's a chance that the frame is worth far more than I had thought, but there's also a chance it's worth less and I was willing to NOT sell the frame in order to find out. I am not in current possession of the frame - it is with an associate of mine who is trying to research its origins. If it turns out the frame is a fake, I will inform all bidders and then relist as necessary, or complete a transaction outside of ebay. If the frame is indeed authentic, and I can provide some sort of proof, I will re-list it for the same price and style of auction.

I am in no way contractually obligated to send you the frame. You must be under a serious delusion to think I would sell it for $50 when I had a legit bid for $300+ just minutes before. Don't waste your time sending your money to me just to have me refund it. I'm sorry you didn't get it for $50 which would be a ridiculous deal even if it was a fake - perhaps if it is re-listed in the future, you will have a true chance to bid on it.

I know your dispute will probably lead to negative feedback, however I am prepared to file a claim with ebay and have official mediation. Please don't waste my time or yours by making this more complicated than it has to be. I again sincerely apologize for getting your hopes up, but unless you were willing to pay $400+ for it, you didn't have a chance anyways.





:nono: :nono: :nono:


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## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

Yes he should have used the end auction early instead of trying to cancel each bid. It then asks you a reason when you choose to end it early. I'm always a tad wary of those listers who put "I have the right to end this auction early" in their listings which means to me they are willing to take someones offer to BIN.


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## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

eastcoaststeve said:


> This guy is a real piece of work: :nono:
> 
> Dear neverenoughjunk,
> 
> ...


Oh great....so now eBay has become the "find out what it's worth after the auction sellers forum".
I'd take it to eBay on the 800 line and keep asking for a higher supervisor until you get him a life ban. I had a similar situation last spring on a road frame....I've been in your shoes in the past and it takes 30-40 minutes on the phone to state your claim and disatisfaction. Hopefully Steve you are a Powerseller and have access to the 800 Power Sellers phone line which avoids the long waits on hold.


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## Boy named SSue (Jan 7, 2004)

That style seatpost clamp was used by Mark Nobilette on many of his own frame. I would certainly lean towards it being one of his. Cool as hell, worth the fight.


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

That sucks. I am a strong believer in Karma.


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## Roadsters (Jul 7, 2008)

It's rare, but not unheard-of, for people to list things on eBay with an impossibly-high reserve, just to see how much something they have is really worth. I've seen it happen with really rare old hot rod parts that people either wanted appraised or just wanted to show off. Either way, it's pretty lame.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

> I am in no way contractually obligated to send you the frame. You must be under a serious delusion

Actually, I believe he is contractually obligated. Let him know you are delusional and pursue this. Keep us posted.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Yep, hold his feet tot he fire. You won't get the bike, but he should get banned from eBay.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Yep, he didn't pick the end early option, which is the only way a seller can end an auction early legally per ebay's user agreement. Simply cancelling bids before the auction ends and leaving it running, that's not how its done. Failing to live up to his end of the contract like this counts as a strike against your account. Isn't it three strikes still and then hello ban?


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

I'd just let it go Steve, as Kevin said, the frame is probably headed for Germany by now. The seller is an a$$, but there's no shortage of that on eBay as I'm sure you're well aware.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

I think Mechagouki is right. Choose your battles. Not worth the frustration. Odds are way low that you will get the frame. Spend the time doing what you enjoy, like browsing old bike forums. 

Cheers,
T


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## cegrover (Oct 17, 2004)

Sorry to see that's been such a pain...

I like this quote: "however by selling it to you I run the risk of not obtaining compensation for the true value of the item."

Isn't that what happens any time you put something up for auction with no reserve and a low starting price?


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## MERK26 (Aug 31, 2009)

cegrover said:


> Sorry to see that's been such a pain...
> 
> I like this quote: "however by selling it to you I run the risk of not obtaining compensation for the true value of the item."
> 
> Isn't that what happens any time you put something up for auction with no reserve and a low starting price?


Yeah...and totally shows this guys intentions...:madmax:


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## J_Westy (Jan 7, 2009)

bushpig said:


> Yep, hold his feet tot he fire. You won't get the bike, but he should get banned from eBay.


It's really minimal effort at the keyboard to do this. I say, make sure he feels the pain for being a greedy clown.


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## blue109 (Jun 21, 2009)

everyone on here should email the seller and ask him why hes being a douche lol. 1000 emails would be funny. i got worked on ebay selling sweet datsun parts before. i sucked it up and sent the parts.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

I would almost want to cut the guy some slack. He obviously messed up, and the price is obviously far less than the frame is worth. 

......then I read the emails. You were more than reasonable, and he was a ********. You repeatedly suggested that you would work with him to make it right---I took that as you saying you'd top up the final bid. He didn't bite, and instead just dug himself deeper and deeper. Lame stuff!

(but I also agree with mechaG and aemmer than it isn't worth stressing yourself out over, though I know how this can infuriate)


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

What a douche. Maybe he should have done his research and found out what he had before he put it up with no reserve. I bet all the bidders and most of the watchers had some idea what it was and what it was worth.


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

Stev, invite him to the forum to explain his case


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Just leave a negative feedback comment on eBay and then move on.


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

Well, not suprisingly he refunded my payment, and sent me another classic message.

I know I should let it go, and that I will never see the frame, but I figure if he wants to make an "extra" $400 by breaking the rules, the least I can do is make him work for it  


Steve


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

I was watching this one. I knew it was something different with the seat post clamp but I am in no position to bid. Interestingly enough he has purchased parts from me before on ebay and he picked them up. He bought from first flight too. I am sure he is a member of this site. I am pretty sure the buyer is local. VRC bikes and parts don't last long here in San Diego. Lots of collectors here. 

I think what he did is BS.


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## mtnbikecrazy55 (Jul 26, 2007)

and in his email reply he stated he was going to do his homework and then afterwards if it was worth alot sell it to one of the original bidders outsidfe of ebay? that i know for sure is against ebay guidelines and he can be booted off for that! give him heIl!


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

Some people are saying to let it go, I say follow the process through. It's not a lot of work for you to do that. Fill in a form, etc. At least give him a black eye in a virtual sense. If it was going to take hours of your time, let it go but it's essentially a few emails to ebay.


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

pinguwin said:


> Some people are saying to let it go, I say follow the process through. It's not a lot of work for you to do that. Fill in a form, etc. At least give him a black eye in a virtual sense. If it was going to take hours of your time, let it go but it's essentially a few emails to ebay.


Yeah, Ping...I'm not stressing over it. I opened an Ebay dispute, (even though I know it won't really accomplish anything other that making this guy think twice before he pulls this crap again).

I sent him one last reply when he refunded my payment and told me off: 

Dear joshmartino,

Hello,

I have researched the "sellers obligations" on Ebay, and opened a dispute. You are indeed contractually obligated to sell the frame for the winning bid. If you choose not to honor your seller's contract I will continue with my current Ebay complaint. I understand your dissatisfaction with the price the frame sold for, but I wonder if being eventually banned by Ebay will be worth the extra $300~$400 you are trying to extract by violating Ebay's rules in the long run. I apologize for the terseness of this message, but I feel you have brought it on yourself.

Steve

- neverenoughjunk

This is the response I got: 

Dear neverenoughjunk,

Haha, you sir are a complete douchebag. I did everything within my power to end the auction early as records clearly indicate. I will just tell the mediator the truth and they will likely side with me.

You are a complete fool to think I will be banned for a single incident involving $50 worth of items vs. all of the positive feedback I have received in the past. I'm glad to see that worthless people like you have nothing better to do than whine and complain when they don't get their way.

Too bad, Steve, you're not getting the frame! And you're still a complete idiot to think that you have a "right" to the frame even though other people bid significantly more for it just hours before the auction ended! I am amazed at how little common sense you have regarding that fact.

And brought this upon myself? Really? You were the one who didn't read the whole auction listing! It's your damn fault, you stubborn fool!

This has been the most entertaining experience I have had using ebay, however I tire of your ignorance and selfishness. You're not getting the frame, I'm not getting "banned" from ebay, so just leave your negative feedback and get on with your life. I'm sure you have more important things to do than whine about a stupid bike frame...or maybe you don't?

- joshmartino

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm done with him.

I'll let the Ebay folks sort it out, and let the chips fall where they may.

Hope the frame ends up in good hands eventually 

Steve


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Jeez, what an a$$hat.


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Psyclones break anyway. Get yourself a Xizang. 

And forget what I said about letting this go, this guy is an ignorant moron who has now dropped all pretense of innocence in this matter - give him 89 of his 90 days to start feeling like he got away with it, and then hit him with scathing negative feedback that will devalue any future auctions he has.


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## jack lantern (Jun 23, 2006)

The guy has 57 feedbacks (word?) with none of them as a seller. Me thinks he most likely _didn't_ do everything in his power to end the auction early. I'm not a big seller on ebay but the few times I've had to end an auction early it's never been a problem. Stupidity falls on his shoulders for not finding out how to properly end an auction early.As he's obviously very sure of himself he does need to learn a lesson from this mess which he created.

What a shame...or is it sham?


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## ckevlar (Feb 9, 2005)

1. Report his doing to ebay.
2. Leave him neg feedback
3. out his ebay name here so we know who we are dealing with


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

ckevlar said:


> 3. out his ebay name here so we know who we are dealing with


It's in the first post (and I have duly filed that knowledge away for future eBaying).


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Steve, you are a real piece of work for posting those messages in this public forum.

I was unable to end the auction early because by the time I received compelling info that the frame was a fake (and the high bidder asked me to remove his bid,) there were only 10 hours left in the auction. The minimum amount of time required to cancel an auction is 12 hours, but apparently all of the people talking crap on this thread didn't know that little tidbit. Well guess what, neither did I! You read it - there was NO end early option.

At that point, the *only* action a seller can take, according to ebay, is to remove all bids manually and hope for the best. You placed a bid within 5 seconds of the end of the auction and thought you had won a great item for dirt cheap, when all I was trying to do was remove the frame until I found out more. In those situations, ebay recommends that the seller contact the buyer and tell them the item is no longer for sale (for whatever reason) and then the transaction is over. Unfortunately for me, you wanted your great deal, and denied my "cancel transaction" request.

I then told you to NOT pay me as I wouldn't send you the frame, but you paid me anyway! What kind of dumbass does that?

And what makes you more deserving of the frame than all of the others whose bids I removed prior to the end of the auction? Do you really think I'm going to send you the frame when literally 4 other people were willing to pay me MORE for it? What kind of cheap bastard tries to force something like that?

I'm glad to see that your moral compass is so misguided that you feel like you can tarnish someone's name by talking crap about them online without their knowledge. I told you I was sorry about the situation, but you couldn't leave it be. At least I explained myself fully, but you tried to strongarm me into a deal. Good luck with your ebay mediation procedure - like I said, I won't be banned, so it was a futile exercise.

For all of the people interested in the frame and not the dumb drama involving Steve:

1. I bought the frame used from some guy on craigslist because I wanted the parts on the bike (which weren't stock, and were a mix of random aftermarket stuff.)

2. When I got the frame home and looked it up, I realized that it was pretty rare and may be worth some money. My knowledge of GTs is limited, so I looked ad a few old catalogs and saw the decals were close to those found on the 1995 Psyclones.

3. I painstakingly cleaned and detailed the frame, then inspected it for damage. The frame seemed straight (and professionally made) so I threw it on ebay and hoped for the best.

4. I received some bids (a bunch from Germany!) and then started getting comments like "I think the frame is a fake/reproduction" and "the fact that there's no serial number means it's probably someone's home-made frame." Stuff like that, which worried me. Then a few people wanted me to remove their bids, and I decided to pull the frame from ebay until I knew more. I wasn't about to ship it to Germany for $200 just to have the buyer claim it's a fake and send it back at my cost.

5. A few users told me that they were willing to pay their original bid price for the bike regardless of whether or not it was a fake, but I wasn't about to sell it until I knew more. gm1230126 told me there was a chance that the frame was made by Mark Nobilette who does a lot of fillet brazing and utilization of wedge-style seatpost clamps. This is funny, because in my attempt to determine who made the frame, I stumbled across Mark's work and thought the same thing (without realizing he used to work for GT.)

6. The auction ended, Steve tried to force me to send the frame to him (although there were others who wanted to pay more for the same thing,) and here we are!

7. Ignoring Steve's pleas to give him the unjust deal of the year, I gave the frame to a friend who works at a shop where the owner is a collector. He was going to research it a bit for me within his circle. I also contacted Mark Nobilette himself requesting a response.

8. I heard back from Mark, who said he did NOT make the frame. He said it more than likely WAS, however, a limited production (or one-of-a-kind) GT frame or a prototype, and he was going to speak to his associates who used to work at GT and determine who made the frame. He also said it was probably made after he left GT in 1994, which would make sense due to the presence of 1995 decals.

Sorry the auction ended this way. I suppose I should have had a friend put a bid of $10,000 in to prevent this mess, but I honestly didn't think it would lead to this situation. And no, ebay cannot make me sell something that I didn't want to sell, regardless of when I changed my mind. You guys apparently don't know the definition of "contractually obligated" because there's no way in hell I have to sell the frame to anyone I didn't want to. If ebay determines that I abused their system (which I obviously didn't do intentionally,) they will likely issue me a warning. If they ban my account, so be it...at least I learned my lesson the hard way.

Oh, and someone offered me $500 today, and I'm not going to accept it because what you tools talking crap don't realize is that it's not all about the money.

Thanks to those people who alerted me to this thread - at least I've said my piece and admitted my mistake. I don't really know any of you and don't really care to know those who were trash talking me, but I will say that I'm not going to sell it to anyone until I found out its origins. If anyone has any questions, feel free to PM me.


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

Well now that I see both sides I probably would have done the same thing. I take back what I said before. Oh and I was mistaken, you never bought from me before. It was jmartin.


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## ckevlar (Feb 9, 2005)

The seller should have added his situation to the items description as to let everyone else know what was going on. How is anyone suppose to guess what he was thinking. 
Steve should still be given the first right of refusal though once the "expected" price is figured out.


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## J_Westy (Jan 7, 2009)

jtmartino said:


> Oh, and someone offered me $500 today, and I'm not going to accept it because what you tools talking crap don't realize is that it's not all about the money.


IMO, with less than 12 hr to go, you really have just let the auction run.

Then inform the winning bidder of what you know/don't know, let him decide and if he wants it or not. If he doesn't, then and only then do you get a do over. That's just good business.

It's really really hard to keep a 100% approval rating and pulling this kind of stuff -- either out of ignorance, good conscience or greed -- ain't gonna get you there.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## veloreality (May 10, 2009)

jtmartino said:


> Oh I definitely tried to change the description itself - apparently that also can't be modified within 12 hours of the auction end.
> 
> I DID, however, reply to questions that were posted at the bottom of the listing that explained in full detail the situation and the fact that I wasn't selling the frame. I must have said it 3 or 4 times throughout the Q&A section, so the fact that Steve didn't see it is not my fault. Why would I remove legit bids from the auction? Do people not even think about that huge piece of the story?
> 
> ...


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Personally? I think you guys should take it to PM's and finish this in private. It's not going anywhere special at this point folks, move along.....


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

*Ah come on Mendon....*

My popcorn's just now ready.....


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

jeff said:


> My popcorn's just now ready.....


A few Troegs Nugget Nectars, I could use a bit of beer sponge myself...


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

NB's Tripple on this end.


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

no, no don't shut this down....after all, you've barely controlled anything else , why start now 


KIDDING!


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

jtmartino said:


> This all arose from my doubts about the origin of the frame - if I was truly confident in my product, I would not cared about selling it for whatever price it hit on ebay. I am fully aware of the reserve and buy-it-now system on ebay, I just chose not to use those features.


I think people here are a little dubious that you were as naive about the frame as you claim to be. You used the word 'rare' in your auction title so you had some idea that it wasn't Karakoram common, and you say that you bought the bike as a 'strip and flip' so you were savvy enough to recognize some of the parts on it.

For me the question from a buyer concerned that the frame is a fake seems like a convenient cue for you to post an answer stating your supposedly good-intentioned reasons for cancelling all bids. I think that some people here (myself included) think that what most probably happened is that someone made you an offer so far above what you expected the auction to bring that you agreed to sell the frame to them direct (saving a chunk of change on eBay and PayPal fees in the process). Nothing about that frame says fake to me - If you were going to the trouble of faking a frame you wouldn't make it significantly different from the production model would you!

Forum member gm1230126 owns at least 1 1-off Psyclone that I know of so there is no doubt they exist, he could probably give us all an idea of its market value.

Of course this is all speculation, and no doubt you will prove us all wrong by re-listing the frame in the near future including whatever information you have learned about it and letting it sell to the highest bidder. Let's hope that's what happens.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

da'HOOV said:


> no, no don't shut this down....after all, you've barely controlled anything else , why start now
> 
> KIDDING!


Never found a conflict you didn't want to be in the middle of, eh?


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

it's only a GT for christ sakes, not like it's the Holy Grail...


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

KDXdog said:


> it's only a GT for christ sakes, not like it's the Holy Grail...


It's the KIller GT.....


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

I experienced a similar situation as a seller a few years ago. It wasn't exactly like this, but I had to decide whether to ship an item knowing it was worth more because I did not know what I had till it was too late to change or stop the listing. In the end I decided that knowing I did the right thing was worth more than the money.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> PLUS shipping. That cost alone is more than the frame is worth.


So in your opinion the frame is worth ~$50 but you wouldn't honor the eBay sale for that price?


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## Doug Lexington (Feb 23, 2007)

i love this thread.

i see it getting locked soon.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> Where did I say the frame was only worth $50?


See the quote

@Doug E. Fresh
Long time no see


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

Another big difference between your situation and mine, I shipped the item to the legitimate winner, you did not. Like it or not steve won your auction. You said it yourself , you took ebay's advice of canceling bids and take your chances, and your gamble did not pay off. IMHO you should try to come to an agreement with Steve, the highest bidder at the end of the auction.


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## Doug Lexington (Feb 23, 2007)

jtmartino said:


> Nice trolling. Shipping to Germany is $275+ depending on who you use.


priority mail to germany for a 20 pound box (44 x 24 x 8) is 86 dollars.

i love this thread.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> Shipping to Germany is $275+ depending on who you use


You'd only have to cover the return shipping.

Shop around. You don't have to buy the frame a plane ticket and cab fare to get it to Germany.
Shipping to Singapore via USPS Global Express (necessitated by Singapore size restrictions for Priority Mail) for a MTB frame is only $288.
I've sent 3 frames to Europe in the last 6 months and none of them cost more than $70.

Yes I do care that a fellow member is getting hosed.


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

And not that it matters to you at this point but I have shipped many frames to Germany for under 100 bucks. Try the usps and keep the girth under 108 inches.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

eastcoaststeve said:


> Then got:
> 
> Dear neverenoughjunk,
> 
> ...


This excerpt makes me think that you are trolling for offers, no? It certainly doesn't make sense to sell the bike for $50, but the way the auction ended was stupid. If you wanted to know what it was worth, let it run. I don't see how anyone could complain after purchase that the bike was "fake" since you discussion on that point was pretty speculative. That said, I don't get the argument that you don't know if the frame was structurally sound, since the auction says it is... I dunn. Seems like a pretty dumb situation all around.


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

Thanks for coming on and defending yourself. Ebay gives you 6 days and 12hours to change your mind. After that you gotta take whatever the outcome is. Why do they have this rule? So you don't waste everybody's time and just get a free appraisal. You must realize that you probably would have gotten close to $500if you would have not started canceling bids, and all or at least most of this is your fault.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Yup. And the whole "sympathy for the bidders I cancelled" thing rings false to me. 

It comes off like you thought you could make more money off it, and handled it poorly. $50 would certainly be a deal. But the only reason that was possible was your hamfisted attempt to end the auction at the last minute. Meh. I don't blame you for not wanting to take the loss of potential profit, but all the rationalizations don't make your approach seem any better for it.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Doug Lexington said:


> i love this thread.
> 
> i see it getting locked soon.


So far, both injured parties have stuck to facts, albeit, their own versions thereof, but statements.

I did, and do, encourage them to take it off line (thus killing this little party) but a long as both can stick to the rules of engagement, (no yo mama jokes and the like) have at it. Hey, the audience can always use some new gladiators.....

Feelings get hurt, I start getting PMs about how so and so got their feelings hurt, it's lock down time.

@ jtmartino, been there man. You start feeling like you need to answer and defend your thoughts, it just gets worse from here. Be strong and walk away, silence is the best answer right now do what you gotta do, deal with eBay, and Steve, that's it. I have no opinions to share, and don't take this as my saying who's right or wrong, it's just that someone has to end the tit for tat, and you can be darn sure the peanut gallery won't.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## -Anomie- (Jan 16, 2005)

You should have just let it run. I was ready to bid _well_ over $500 for it and then pick it up to save you the hassle of packing and shipping it, but when bids started disappearing and I noticed your low feedback count I got leery and just watched to see what would happen. Good choice. At least now I have a couple of new names to add to my blocked bidder list.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

-Anomie- said:


> At least now I have a couple of new names to add to my blocked bidder list.


no kidding.


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## Doug Lexington (Feb 23, 2007)

jtmartino said:


> I didn't get the PMs on ebay about the frame being a fake until a day before the auction ended, and decided to pull it with 10 hours left. Didn't know about the 12 hour rule.
> 
> I know I would've gotten close to $500 for the auction, but I honestly didn't want to sell something that could be fake. Maybe that's dumb business, but I thought I was doing all of the prospective buyers a favor.
> 
> No, my intention was not to get a free appraisal, regardless of what you people think. I believe I have provided all of the information required for a normal person to deduce that I wasn't fishing for bids and I wasn't looking for a higher bidder than the $300+ dollars already on the frame (I didn't put a reserve, and I still own the frame.)


you really should take the advice of mcs. your posts are not helping you one bit.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

So when can we expect to see it relisted? I'm sure all this discussion has increased attention, so anyone who's intersted will be ready to bid. Or not.


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

jtmartino said:


> How would you have ended the auction if you had doubts about your item's authenticity?


 As stated earlier, you should have let the auction run its course, then bring any possible doubts to the attention of the winning bidder. Giving them the option to back out.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

muddybuddy said:


> As stated earlier, you should have let the auction run its course, then bring any possible doubts to the attention of the winning bidder. Giving them the option to back out.


Yep. And then you've got the ability to do a second chance offer if they didn't want it. Anyone bidding should have read the Q&A, but if they still wanted to back out, it wouldn't have been nearly the mess it became.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## Doug Lexington (Feb 23, 2007)

jtmartino said:


> Either way, I'll sell the frame to someone willing to buy it.... there are plenty of other people out there willing to pay.


i thought you had a buyer who was willing to pay. isnt that how this whole thread started?


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## Doug Lexington (Feb 23, 2007)

jtmartino said:


> Funny guy. Hopefully by now you would be able to infer that I was talking about a fair price.


i couldnt resist.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

jtmartino said:


> Funny guy. Hopefully by now you would be able to infer that I was talking about a fair price.


Here we get to it! This didn't have squat to do with fair to bidders - this had everything to do with you thinking you could squeeze more about it. Nothing wrong with that, but at least be up front about it.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## Doug Lexington (Feb 23, 2007)

jtmartino said:


> Don't you guys have anything better to do that troll? I mean, I know it's President's Day and all, but seriously?


your including yourself in that statement also right?


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

Interesting use of the word "fake" by the seller. Sounds more like everyone involved seems to (want to) think this is some sort of one-off, prototype or extra-special frame in some way, no?

To me, the word "fake" implies an illegitimate and presumably far-less-expensive-to-produce copy of a genuine product that the builder is attempting to pass off as "real". I can't imagine it would be worth making a "fake" of a mid-90's GT... I mean, that's like counterfeiting $1 bills, no?


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

Hey, has this been relisted yet? As stated in the auction:
"my apologies to all who bid on the frame! I will determine whether or not this frame is authentic. *If it is, in fact, an authentic Psyclone frame, I will relist the posting and contact the bidders*."
Looks like this has been confirmed. 
Sorry mods I am done.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## Boy named SSue (Jan 7, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> You guys are missing a few gears, aren't you?


This is the vintage forum so it's safe to say there are some 6, 7, and 8 speed bikes among us.


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

jtmartino said:


> Hey, gm1230126 was the one who said it could be fake, and I read some articles about people making their own frames and slapping stickers on them, pretending they were the real deal.
> 
> If it is a special frame, obviously it's worth the $500 offer I received, and will definitely go back up for sale on ebay (assuming I still have an account at that time...)


so GM warned you it may be fake so you "closed the auction".......and then "someone who collects a lot of GTs has offered me what seems to be a good price for it (I'm sure some of you know who I'm talking about.)"..was that offer thru or outside of Ebay? It seems like more than one person could get in trouble with Ebay here 

I'm not taking sides, just some folks should be careful with whats said here..if it were me I'd take it offline ....

just sayin


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

illuminaGTy


heh


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

yo-Nate-y said:


> illuminaGTy
> 
> heh


LOL - In yer interwebs watchin' your Psyclones!


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

bushpig said:


> LOL - In yer interwebs watchin' your Psyclones!


Ok ok, now I am procrastinating......


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

da'HOOV said:


> so GM warned you it may be fake so you "closed the auction".......and then "someone who collects a lot of GTs has offered me what seems to be a good price for it (I'm sure some of you know who I'm talking about.)"..was that offer thru or outside of Ebay? It seems like more than one person could get in trouble with Ebay here
> 
> I'm not taking sides, just some folks should be careful with whats said here..if it were me I'd take it offline ....
> 
> just sayin


Did GM 'warn' him that it was a fake, or tell him it was a one off?


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

IF52 said:


> Did GM 'warn' him that it was a fake, or tell him it was a one off?


I quoted from what the "seller" posted. It's his words I highlighted in red, not mine..

I don't know what GM told him....if the seller is misquoting him..., then that's a whole nuther can of worms...

edit....see post #61....


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

da'HOOV said:


> I don't know what GM told him....


Exactly.



da'HOOV said:


> ...if the seller is misquoting him..., then that's a whole nuther can of worms...


Yup.


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

hey, believe me, I'm not takin sides, just reporting what I see....


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## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

KDXdog said:


> it's only a GT for christ sakes, not like it's the Holy Grail...


Then what is???....certainly not a Fat


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

jtmartino said:


> GM Said:
> 
> "There's a GT blog out there discussing your listing and a number of people on there feel your frame is a fake...built by someone else and labeled as a GT."
> 
> Kind of difficult to misinterpret that message - glad to see you guys are giving me the benefit of the doubt, yet again .


so you didn't say this in post #61?....... "And so you all know, gm1230126 was the one who indicated the frame might be fake via a PM on ebay and essentially was the catalyst for this whole mess. Want to blame someone? Blame gm1230126's persuasive messages ...."

Kind of difficult to misinterpret THAT message too...you may want to reread your own posts....


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Edited. No more rope.


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

First off Mendon, thanks for letting this play out :thumbsup: I'll stick to the facts as I have from the start.



Ok, so I decided to sit this one out for a bit and see what the "seller" had to say, as I'm a firm believer in the old adage, "Give a man enough rope..."

From re-reading all his messages and posts, I think he summed it up best with these fantastic statements:


"The highest bidder did not win the frame"

"Now I have an offer for $500, so that is what the frame is worth to me"

"I'll sell the frame to someone willing to buy it. Whether or not it's one of the trash-talkin guys on this website, I don't care, because there are plenty of other people out there willing to pay"

If it is a special frame, obviously it's worth the $500 offer I received, and will definitely go back up for sale on Ebay"


:nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: 




I'm not even going to get into all the holes/diversions/self-servingness of his replies and motives, but I find it odd that:


*** He claims to be an un-informed VRC novice lamb when it comes to anything in the 
90's, but he knew enough about Breezer dropouts to mention them prominently.


*** He claimed to have "painstakingly cleaned and detailed the frame then inspected it for damage, and then used the "fact" that "I haven't even taken the bike to a shop to ensure it is structurally sound" as a reason not to sell it.


*** He was "unable to send you the frame as it is no longer in my possession"...was he going to ship it to me before it mysteriously left his hands?


*** He states that he has extensive Ebay experience, but was suprised someone would "slip a bid in with 5 seconds left"... and acknowleged he passed on the "reserve" feature by choice.


*** He was "prepared to file a claim with Ebay and have official mediation" to resolve this, but then told me "please don't waste my time by making this more complicated than it has to be" "Leave your feedback and move on"


etc, etc, etc, ........:skep: 



I'd like to thank him for calling me a:

douchebag
complete fool
complete idiot
stubborn fool
ignorant
selfish
and a dumbass  , seems a bit defensive to me  



As far as why I paid for the frame even though he told me he would not ship it and would refund my money...I paid to avoid a non-paying bidder tag and to show the good folks at Ebay I was serious about completing my end of the contract.


As far as I am concerned, I bid on an active auction and won, (I'm sorry he removed higher bids, but why is that my fault? Not that he even knows what my high bid really was as it doesn't show anything but my "minimum' bid on Ebay). I probably would have walked away quietly, but when he tried to squeeze me for additional $, and insisted I was in the wrong, I took a different path...




I'm sure this will elicit a great deal of self-serving explanations, and attacks from the "seller". I doubt I'll be adding, or replying to any future posts in this thread, (except to fill you guys in on the final outcome with Ebay when they make up their minds what to do), but I will be watching  



Cheers,

Steve
(almost owner of another cool frame)


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

jtmartino said:


> And why do you even care?


.....because it became public and I was curious as to the whole story. That's why I advised Steve to invite you to the forum to explain your side.....It's too easy to jump to conclusions when only one side is presented.

Besides, it's good theater


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## hannibal smith (Jun 9, 2009)

This looks familiar- I messaged an Ebay seller about a GT frameset that I believed was a one-off of sorts and that the seller just might possess a rare and highly desireable framest. I do not collect GT MTB's so I had no stake in the bidding, but I do recall that the frameset was definitely interesting.

This was last week I believe, but I cannot recall if it was this frameset, but it sure looks familiar. the message would have come from Sup**F**231 (* means letters omitted due to bidder privacy)

The only detail I cannot remember was the seatpost binder, but I do look at tons of road and MTB frames.

I am 90% sure on this one-


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

eastcoaststeve said:


> First off Mendon, thanks for letting this play out :thumbsup: I'll stick to the facts as I have from the start.
> 
> Ok, so I decided to sit this one out for a bit and see what the "seller" had to say, as I'm a firm believer in the old adage, "Give a man enough rope..."
> 
> ...


You are an artist at pulling information out of context. For that, I applaud you. I can't even begin to retort - I just don't have the patience.

And how do you not expect me to be defensive? You are using my name in a slanderous, negative context on a public forum that I was not invited to join by you. Congratulations, you have achieved internet superiority!

I never tried to squeeze you for money - when you offered, I gave you the option to name your price and you didn't. Don't try to cover that fact up or skew it to your advantage. The auction was screwed from the moment I removed bidders, so you should have accepted it and moved on.

The thing I find the most odd? The fact that you are so hurt by the outcome of the auction. I apologized profusely in the beginning for the mistake, and you just wouldn't have it. That's when things turned sour, thanks to your stubbornness. I'm not really sure how to make out all of this information, but I want to say a big THANK YOU to all those who provided advice on how to sell items on ebay in a proper fashion. I also want to thank those who alerted me to this hilarious rant.

Oh, and I learned about breezer dropouts, Mark Nobilette, The Illuminati, etc. after people started questioning its authenticity - it's amazing the stuff you learn online in a short period of time.

I'm definitely over this whole event. Good luck Steve in your futile mediation. Good luck to the rest of you in your hunt for VRC stuff. Hopefully we can get over this in the future and I can meet you local guys for a beer and laugh at how everything played out. I'll buy the first round with the proceeds from the frame 

Thanks for the laughs, sorry again Steve. Feel free to bid again when the frame goes up, I won't set a reserve and I won't block anyone.

Cheers.

PS - I edited my replies because I think you people need to move on with your lives. I know I will, and won't be revisiting this thread ever again.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

I have been hanging out here for over a year, and still don't have the Illuminati figured out?


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## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

Aemmer said:


> I have been hanging out here for over a year, and still don't have the Illuminati figured out?


Apparently there are multiple "Illuminati" (Illuminatis?). The ones I know don't care about GT's, but are laughing that these "GT illuminati" are evidently secretly manipulating eBay auctions to their own benefit!


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

A person of high rank in the GT illuminati wanted the regular illuminati to post this here on condition of anonymity:

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/bik/1596429315.html


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

Fillet-brazed said:


> A person of high rank in the GT illuminati wanted the regular illuminati to post this here on condition of anonymity:
> 
> http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/bik/1596429315.html


you're mean


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

hannibal smith said:


> This looks familiar- *I messaged an Ebay seller about a GT frameset that I believed was a one-off of sorts and that the seller just might possess a rare and highly desireable framest.* I do not collect GT MTB's so I had no stake in the bidding, but I do recall that the frameset was definitely interesting.
> 
> This was last week I believe, but I cannot recall if it was this frameset, but it sure looks familiar. the message would have come from Sup**F**231 (* means letters omitted due to bidder privacy)
> 
> ...


This is probably for another thread, but I don't get why people do this. If you do not collect GT MTBs, and have no stake in the bidding, why do you contact the seller and tell them they have something special? Isn't it their responsibility? Isn't it possible that these types of messages are what gave the seller cold feet in the first place? I know you are not the only one to do this, and I don't believe it is against Ebay's policies, but I would like to know what the rational behind contacting a seller and telling them they have something special is. Kinda ruins the whole dynamic of Ebay IMO.


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

ScottyMTB said:


> This is probably for another thread, but I don't get why people do this. If you do not collect GT MTBs, and have no stake in the bidding, why do you contact the seller and tell them they have something special? Isn't it their responsibility? Isn't it possible that these types of messages are what gave the seller cold feet in the first place? I know you are not the only one to do this, and I don't believe it is against Ebay's policies, but I would like to know what the rational behind contacting a seller and telling them they have something special is. Kinda ruins the whole dynamic of Ebay IMO.


+1

:thumbsup:


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> You are using my name in a slanderous


Libelous... slander is spoken, libel is print.


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## Linoleum (Aug 25, 2008)

My libelous is sore from riding Sunday.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Linoleum said:


> My libelous is sore from riding Sunday.


Maybe you should slander some ointment on it.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

da'HOOV said:


> so you didn't say this in post #61?....... "And so you all know, gm1230126 was the one who indicated the frame might be fake via a PM on ebay and essentially was the catalyst for this whole mess. Want to blame someone? Blame gm1230126's persuasive messages ...."
> 
> Kind of difficult to misinterpret THAT message too...you may want to reread your own posts....


I don't doubt GM knew what it was, and I don't doubt GM contacted him, but I would be suspicious of any quoted statements attributed to GM by the seller at this point. I am certain the seller was hammered with requests from German eBayers to sell the frame directly instead of letting the auction run its course. I had the same thing happen to me recently when I sold a NOS Judy SL, even though I clearly stated I wouldn't ship over seas, on top of the fact that I always let my auctions run their course.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

ScottyMTB said:


> This is probably for another thread, but I don't get why people do this. If you do not collect GT MTBs, and have no stake in the bidding, why do you contact the seller and tell them they have something special? Isn't it their responsibility? Isn't it possible that these types of messages are what gave the seller cold feet in the first place? I know you are not the only one to do this, and I don't believe it is against Ebay's policies, but I would like to know what the rational behind contacting a seller and telling them they have something special is. Kinda ruins the whole dynamic of Ebay IMO.


I totally agree. Which is why deals on ebay are getting fewer and far between. Numbnuts.


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## pete_mcc (Aug 19, 2006)

I like the idea of producing a fake GT. Be a bit like faking a Timex when you could be faking a Rolex.

Obviously the GT illuminati were spreading rumors in order to get the frame on the cheap - market manipulation at its worse


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

IF52 said:


> Maybe you should slander some ointment on it.


it's carnival here and there is a lot of nice libelous on TV!


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## Megaclocker (Sep 28, 2005)

jtmartino is a dick :thumbsup:


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## Doug Lexington (Feb 23, 2007)

jtmartino said:


> I know I will, and won't be revisiting this thread ever again.


this much i doubt. id be willing to bet a 50 dollar gt frame you are still following it. of course if im wrong i wont be supplying the frame, just to stay with the theme of the thread.

and as for the brews. i wonder how many members would line up for that after you insulted most them in your now edited posts.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Megaclocker said:


> jtmartino is a dick :thumbsup:


Someone just had to, didn't they.......

Good night.


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