# WTB Frequency i23 AM wheelset: alternative to Flow rims



## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

I just completed a 26er AM wheelset with the new WTB Frequency i23 rims (UST/TLR profile), Wheelsmith DB 14 spokes, and CK ISO hubs for a customer in Toronto. Total wheelset rotating weight: 1,850g. I am completely impressed by the quality of these new rims: 469g, 120kgf max. spoke tension, very nice design details. As I finished the build process, the wheels had the feel of having developed high strength, and built up very true. 

Next i23 wheelset presently underway is a 29er set for a customer in Eugene.


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

I'd say they are definitely an alternative to the Flow. Given they have a true UST rim profile and they are eyeleted some would say they may even be an improvement (though my Charger Expert wheels with BST rims work just fine with UST spec beads).

I'll be interested to see how the new Pancenti TL28's compare as well.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

With the Frequency rims, WTB eliminated eyelets for directionally drilled and radiused spoke nipple holes. They are getting even better durability in this manner.


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## bholwell (Oct 17, 2007)

Does the "23" refer to the internal width of these rims, or outer width? (WTB's website is lacking in critical information)


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

inner


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Yes, i23stands for internal width 23mm.



bholwell said:


> Does the "23" refer to the internal width of these rims, or outer width? (WTB's website is lacking in critical information)


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## UnpavedAttitude (Jul 29, 2010)

What about the i19? Anybody have built those rims for xc racing ? 
thanks


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## Flboy (Mar 18, 2008)

UST bead, what taspe or rim strip do they recomend for tubless use?


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

just stans yellow tape i beleive.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

25 mm wide tape such as Stans is recommended for the i23.



Flboy said:


> UST bead, what taspe or rim strip do they recomend for tubless use?


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## jamesnorton (Nov 16, 2011)

italianbike74 said:


> What about the i19? Anybody have built those rims for xc racing ?
> thanks


just picked up a set of CK hubs laced to 29er wtb frequency i19's pretty darn light. however i didn't get to weigh in grams but under 4lbs for the set w/o cassette.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

*29er AM Single Speed WTB i23 Wheelset!*

I just completed a 29er AM Single Speed wheelset with the new WTB Frequency i23 rims (UST/TLR profile), Wheelsmith DB 14 spokes, DT Swiss 350 front hub and CK ISO SS rear hub for a customer in Eugene. Total wheelset rotating weight: 1,990g. I am completely impressed by the quality of these new rims: 503g, 120kgf max. spoke tension, very nice design details. As I finished the build process, the wheels had the feel of having developed high strength, and built up very true.


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## wyatt79m (Mar 3, 2007)

looks good


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

Looks nice. How does the tubeless setup compare to Stans flow?


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

2,000 grams ain't light! WTB seems to have done a nice job with their recent rim upgrades, took them a while. But please, NEVER stop making the DD!


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

*WTB TCS Details*

Here's a link to a WTB web page showing rim cross section UST details: TCS. The bead hook & lock design provides a more secure hold on the tire bead. The center well "on-ramp" has room for the tire beads when mounting a tire on the rim, and geometry to help the bead to move from the well to the bead lock. Just makes mounting a little easier, depending on the actual shape of the tire bead.



CupOfJava said:


> Looks nice. How does the tubeless setup compare to Stans flow?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

I designed this single speed AM wheelset for a customer with a riding weight of 225-230 pounds, it needs adequate strength to meet his requirements.



Yogii said:


> 2,000 grams ain't light! WTB seems to have done a nice job with their recent rim upgrades, took them a while. But please, NEVER stop making the DD!


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## bholwell (Oct 17, 2007)

Yogii said:


> 2,000 grams ain't light! WTB seems to have done a nice job with their recent rim upgrades, took them a while. But please, NEVER stop making the DD!


It's pretty light for a 29er AM wheelset with CK hubs. An identical wheelset with Flows would have weighed approx. 100g more.


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## zg2tn9 (Dec 19, 2010)

Where did you purchase new rims WTB (FREQUENCY i23 26)?
I could not find them on sale in any online store.
What is the technology of "4D Drilling"? About her writing WTB in the specification to the rim.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Any WTB dealer can sell WTB rims, and I am one of probably many dealers. I may have been lucky enough to build the first ones commercially. The Dealer Locator portion of WTB's website has a message saying it is temporarily unavailable. The International Distributors webpage directory is working. The WTB online store web pages don't appear to have been updated yet with the new rims. The rims should be showing up on the online stores soon, as they have carried all of the WTB products in the past.

The 4D drilling is angled drilling with each hole pointed directly towards the hub flange hole where the spoke is intended to go. This minimizes the bending stress on the spoke and nipple at the rim from otherwise less accurate alignment.



zg2tn9 said:


> Where did you purchase new rims WTB (FREQUENCY i23 26)?
> I could not find them on sale in any online store.
> What is the technology of "4D Drilling"? About her writing WTB in the specification to the rim.


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## savagemann (Jan 14, 2008)

How do these compare to the Lazer TCS All Mountain Race rims? 
What about max spoke tension?

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## ivarulz (Oct 6, 2011)

Good question.

In online stores you can buy both Frequency and last season WTB Laser TCS.
The 19mminner width are both mentioned at 385g.

Seems the new design dropped eyelets for the 4d drilling.

Did you have the change to build with both? what is your opinion.

Just bought a set of Laser TCS XC 32h, and are getting ready to be built with DT Revolutions 2.0-1.5-2.0 and WTB Laserdisc hubs (reusing the hubs from an old wheelset)


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

WTB said that they got better rim durability results using the 4D spoke hole drilling technology as compared with their previous eyeletted rims, think of this as a further refinement in their rim design. The rims have the same maximum spoke tension as the previous Laser TCS models: 120 kgf. I do like building with the Frequency rims better than the Laser TCS rims and have gotten even better results.



savagemann said:


> How do these compare to the Lazer TCS All Mountain Race rims?
> What about max spoke tension?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## sti29 (Nov 25, 2011)

I'm planning on building at wheelset with these rims in 29 inch with either Hope Pro 2 or XTR M988 hubs. Does anyone know the spoke length for these setups? All parts are yet to be ordered, so I can't measure anything myself. No info on ERD or anything on the WTB site.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

I measured the ERD for the two 29er i23 rims I ordered at 599 mm each. It is always best to actually measure your rims before calculating spoke length, especially until the consistency of the ERD is established for new rim models. Hub measurements are more standardized, and manufacturer's measurements can usually be trusted.



sti29 said:


> I'm planning on building at wheelset with these rims in 29 inch with either Hope Pro 2 or XTR M988 hubs. Does anyone know the spoke length for these setups? All parts are yet to be ordered, so I can't measure anything myself. No info on ERD or anything on the WTB site.


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## zg2tn9 (Dec 19, 2010)

to 4slomo
What is ERD (to calculate the length of the spokes) you used to WTB Frequency I-23 a diameter of 26 "? On the manufacturer's website could not find the data.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Ill post the 26er ERD tomorrow, when I am able to access my files.



zg2tn9 said:


> to 4slomo
> What is ERD (to calculate the length of the spokes) you used to WTB Frequency I-23 a diameter of 26 "? On the manufacturer's website could not find the data.


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## savagemann (Jan 14, 2008)

I looked up somewhere it was 535 for the 26".
I think i saw it in a catalog. 
But its better to measure it for real.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

*Width...*

As above, I assume the inner rim width is 23mm.

What about the outer width?


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## zg2tn9 (Dec 19, 2010)

Miker J said:


> As above, I assume the inner rim width is 23mm.
> 
> What about the outer width?


Height 19.5mm
Internal width 23mm
External width 28mm
Weight 455g

Information from the directory WTB 2012


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

*Thanks....*



zg2tn9 said:


> Height 19.5mm
> Internal width 23mm
> External width 28mm
> Weight 455g
> ...


So the question will be, how are these rims going to compare to the Flows - being just as wide and about 70g lighter per rim.

Time will hopefully tell.

My biggest question will be the this rims ability to hook up with non-UST tires. For example, I really like Kenda non-UST tires and they mount up perfectly with Stans.

Can anyone comment on the bead-tire interface differs between the WTB and Stan's?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

*Frequency i23 26er ERD*

I measured the ERD for the two 26er i23 rims I ordered at 537 mm each. It is always best to actually measure your rims before calculating spoke length, especially until the consistency of the ERD is established for new rim models. Hub measurements are more standardized, and manufacturer's measurements can usually be trusted.

Read through the whole thread for more info on these rims.



4slomo said:


> I'll post the 26er ERD tomorrow, when I am able to access my files.


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## happyriding (May 9, 2008)

> Can anyone comment on the bead-tire interface differs between the WTB and Stan's?


I replaced a worn out non-UST 2.35 Kenda Nevegal on my rear wheel(Stan's Flow rim) with a WTB 2.3 TCS Weirwolf. I mounted it with a floor pump and it sealed up much quicker than the Kenda. I think the WTB Weirwolf stopped leaking air after one day. Seems to have comparable traction in dry, rocky conditions as the Kenda. I haven't rolled it yet, so the bead hookup seems to be fine. The sidewall does say something like, "Warning: read the owners manual at wtb.com before mounting", but I couldn't find any info about the Weirwolf at the WTB website. I'm currently running it at 35 lbs, and I weigh about 235 lbs with gear.

The WTB does however look much narrower than the 2.35 Kenda Nevagal, and I think it is much heavier to boot.


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## happyriding (May 9, 2008)

4slomo,

Would you ever build wheels with straight gauge spokes for heavier riders? Why or why not?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Check out post #16, and the link to the WTB website page.



Miker J said:


> ... Can anyone comment on the bead-tire interface differs between the WTB and Stan's?


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## PissedOffCil (Oct 18, 2007)

Miker J said:


> So the question will be, how are these rims going to compare to the Flows - being just as wide and about 70g lighter per rim.


Flows are listed at 470g, so make that 15g per rim...


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Flboy said:


> *UST bead,* what taspe or rim strip do they recomend for tubless use?


Oh frekken finally starts making some UST beaded rims at 21 or 23 mm inner width.............Oh, and that aren't boat anchors (that's directed at you Mavic).

Although, I really have to question the 385 gr weight listed. My experience with WTB and list weights is add 20% to get the real number. Anyone put just the rim on a scale? (26 inch)

I really don't mind the tape as long as the rim profile and bead hook are UST type. I like my UST and TR tires, but not the std tires ran tubeless.

If all this turns out to be a decent rim for $75, I will finally be having my 2nd Lefty wheel built up.


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

Well, one thing about mavic rims is they're pretty bomb proof. Never the lightest however. Surprised they haven't jumped in on the tubeless ready band wagon yet like WTB and DT


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

CupOfJava said:


> Well, one thing about mavic rims is they're pretty bomb proof. Never the lightest however. Surprised they haven't jumped in on the tubeless ready band wagon yet like WTB and DT


IIRC, Mavic did the whole UST thing and has tried to license that tech so companies can put UST on the label. So, I'm not sure if Mavic would do a tubeless ready setup or not.

It seems as if Mavic stopped doing anything after the put out the 819 and 823 rims. Those rims don't appear to have changed in the 4 yrs I have been riding mtb. They appear to have worked a lot in their wheelsets.

I would have been ok with an 821 rim.

Mavics weights always seem to be without the eyelet insert thing you have to use with their 8 series rims. So, add 50 to listed weight.


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

PissedOffCil said:


> Flows are listed at 470g, so make that 15g per rim...


It becomes more pronounced for the 29er wheelsize... 50gr


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## unbalanced (Jul 26, 2010)

The wheels pictured in the first post by 4slomo, are my wheels built by 4slomo. I met him through a mutual other hobby of hi-fi audio. A friend of mine who is a biking nut had Steve build him a set of wheels and liked the experience so I followed suit. The whole affair was top notch. He is a pleasure to deal with. Ok..enough with the sales... (I am not affiliated, just happy customer)

The wheels have yet to be mounted. This is my first set of "hi-end" wheels. Meant for my Giant Trance X2 (with mucho upgrades). I like to push my limits. I am no pro rider, hardly, but I did ride BMX as a kid and like to be aggressive and take drops from time to time, so I wanted an AM set of wheels.


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## unbalanced (Jul 26, 2010)

P.S. I lost all the stickers on the rims...my bike is all black with minor red highlights....i wanted the more utilitarian look.


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

The website lists weight for the i23 TCS rim at 475g. Above guys keep saying 455g... so uh what is it?

Obviously there will be variation on rim to rim but is it 20g?

Are the rims priced better than Stans?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

There is some confusion, in part because the 2012 Catalog lists the i23 rim weights as 455g/26" and 470g/29", and the website lists the i23 rim weights as 475g/26" and 530g/29". I back calculated a weight of 503g/29" as noted in Post #12.

The i23 26er 475g rim weight listed on the WTB website may be a typo.

I can back calculate the rim weight from the total wheelset weight. I weighed the 26er wheelset I built at 1,850g. The calculated weight is 1,862g. The difference in the two weights is 12g, which can be allocated equally to the two rims, so the average weight per rim is 475 - 12/2 = 469g.

If I back calculate the rim weight for the front wheel separately, on my scale the front wheel weighed 840g and the calculated wheel weight is 846g, The difference for the front is 6g. 475 - 6/2 = 472g for the front rim.

The rear wheel weighed 1,000g and the calculated weight is 1,016g. The difference for the rear is 16g. 475 - 16/2 = 467g for the rear rim.

Averaging the two calculated weights: Half of (472 + 467) is an average weight of 469.5g for a 26er i23 rim.

WTB Frequency i23 rim website retail prices: $75/26" and $80/29". 
Stans Flow rim website retail prices: $90/26" and $93/29".
Lower prices for the the rims can be found at other online stores.



shirk said:


> The website lists weight for the i23 TCS rim at 475g. Above guys keep saying 455g... so uh what is it?
> 
> Obviously there will be variation on rim to rim but is it 20g?
> 
> Are the rims priced better than Stans?


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Thanks for the info 4slomo. I've been a big fan of the LaserDisc Trail rims. They've taken a beating on my bike here on the Shore. 

I was going to build up some Flow's but now I am pretty sure I'll go for the i23. 

Do they come fairly straight and build up easy? I've only built 8 wheels so I am still a beginner in the fine art of wheel building.


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## K2e2vin (Oct 10, 2011)

Thanks for the heads up! I'll be picking up a set after Christmas.


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## BenPea (Aug 2, 2005)

Miker J said:


> So the question will be, how are these rims going to compare to the Flows - being just as wide and about 70g lighter per rim.


The Flows are 470g, so 15g more.

Has anyone had any real problems with the Flows? I've just had some laced up and have never ridden tubeless before.


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

I have 4 sets of flow rims one for each of my bikes. Never had any issue with them. The key is to find tires that work best.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

CupOfJava said:


> I have 4 sets of flow rims one for each of my bikes. Never had any issue with them. The key is to find tires that work best.


Maybe I'm misinformed, but that's the reason I never went with the Flow set up, tires. I just want to grab my TR or UST tire, put in on and go. I don't want to have to worry about getting it to seal, burping etc.

I'm hoping with these new i23 rims supposedly with a UST bead, that I can just put a little tape on, sealant and go.


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

Tubelss ready should be and easy fit with flows. Not sure about UST (they still make those??)


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

CupOfJava said:


> Tubelss ready should be and easy fit with flows. Not sure about UST (they still make those??)


LOL, yeah, I think they do, but they dont want to pay Mavic so they call them Tubeless, or Grid (Spec) or some other catching marketing name.

When I want tough over weight, I go full UST( or equiv)


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## BenPea (Aug 2, 2005)

Are the Flows fragile in a ghetto tubeless set-up? Does the lack of tube take away an important buffer between the rim and destruction?


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## Squib38 (Apr 8, 2008)

I have had a lot of different tires on the flows and never had a problem getting any of them to seat or seal at the bead interface. UST, TLR, regular tires, they all locked in with no problems. As for durability, I would say that because of the really low profile of the rim you get fewer rim strikes when tubeless and fewer pinch flats when running tubes. So yes they are durable.


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## BenPea (Aug 2, 2005)

Why fewer rim strikes with a low profile? I'm worried that running at a lower pressure (one of the things tubeless allows you to do) will mean that the rims are "hitting" rocks more often and harder.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Hey guys,

This thread is to discuss the i23 rims. Please try to help me keep it on topic and more helpful to those interested in the i23 rims, by discussing the Flow rims in a different thread. Thanks!


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## BenPea (Aug 2, 2005)

Woops, apologies. Although this is also information that may sway someone towards or away from the i23 (also, the Flow is mentioned in the subject).


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

Not much to talk about regarding the WTB i23 since it's not even out yet. Oops I just noticed Universal Cycles has them in stock now.

I'd like to hear feedback on these rims from anyone using them on a 29er.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

*Flows - 29"*

29" rims - that is what I was comparing.

Flows with most any tire thus far (TLR or non-TLR) have been quite easy to set up.

I 29" Flows as I recall look like they come in at about 525g and I've yet to kill one within a reasonable amount of riding time. So, if I can get another rim, that is cheap, lighter, just as wide, and just as easy to mount tires to, I'd consider a change.

Now, if we are only talking a few grams, like 20g or so, I'll stick with the Flows. In terms of both east of setup and performance, they really have been great.


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

I hear you. 4 sets of Flows and never had any issues yet.


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## mikron24 (Dec 26, 2011)

wow me too picking up a pair of these early 2012 for my 2012 Cannondale Flash alloy 29'er 3 so i can rock going tubeless in AZ


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

*29er i23 initial impressions*

First riding impressions from Eugenemtb riding his WTB Frequency i23 29er SS wheelset: http://forums.mtbr.com/one/inbred-29er-oregon-760339.html#post8876163


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## ivarulz (Oct 6, 2011)

it would have benn nicer if he ran the tcs bronsons


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## zg2tn9 (Dec 19, 2010)

4slomo

Hi.
Wanted to ask.
Is it possible to UST, TLR tire put on the rim WTB Frequency with a hand pump rather than floor pump, no compressor?I ask because on my Mavic UST rim, UST tire is worn easily with a hand pump, without the use of magic.  
Many manufacturers talk about the compatibility of its UST rims, but reading the forum it appears that users are experiencing difficulties with the production of tires, they are often in general not possible without a strong push to put the air compressor that provides a powerful floor pump.
I offer my apologies for the error in the text. I'm from Russia, to communicate with you using google translate.:lol:
I hope you understand me.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

*mounting tires*

Hi zg2tn9,

I just received a response from WTB today. WTB has a video showing Jason Moeschler and Mark Weir, two racers, mounting WTB Bronson 2.3 AM TCS tires on Laser TCS All Mountain Race rims, which have the identical dimensions as the Frequency i23 rims, using a Topeak Mountain Morph hand pump.

video mounting tire: WTB on Vimeo



zg2tn9 said:


> 4slomo
> 
> Hi.
> Wanted to ask.
> ...


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## opiants (May 15, 2011)

I've been wanting to upgrade my wheelset and this seems to be a good option. I'm new to this UST thing and wanted to ask if I can still use tube on a UST compliant rim?

Also, crc has them but are listed as 2011. 
WTB Frequency I-23- Sleeved Rim 2011 | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com
Are these the same i23 rim discussed here?


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## ignazjr (Dec 29, 2003)

Yes, you can use a tube on a UST rim.

I've built up quite a few wheels now with both the i19 and the i23 in 26 and 29. Much easier to build than Stan's, primarily due to the fact that there's no real binding to speak of between the nipple and the rim. Quality on the rim is excellent. I've got a pair on the way that I'll be building for a personal set. I am eager to get these going to see what long term durability is going to be.

Good post 4slomo. We've had the same discussion here in the bike shop that the i23 is a potential Flow killer.


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

I just built up a i23 29er wheelset. Will test it out once my Charbon Frame comes in this week and I finish building it up. I've ridden a set of i19 which were great.


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## opiants (May 15, 2011)

ignazjr said:


> Yes, you can use a tube on a UST rim.
> 
> I've built up quite a few wheels now with both the i19 and the i23 in 26 and 29. Much easier to build than Stan's, primarily due to the fact that there's no real binding to speak of between the nipple and the rim. Quality on the rim is excellent. I've got a pair on the way that I'll be building for a personal set. I am eager to get these going to see what long term durability is going to be.
> 
> Good post 4slomo. We've had the same discussion here in the bike shop that the i23 is a potential Flow killer.


Thanks. Can anyone confirm that the one on crc is the most recent one?


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## ignazjr (Dec 29, 2003)

They have only made one iteration of the i23 to my knowledge. It just started shipping in November or so. Unless you're not in the US, why not pick one up from a local dealer? $71 is pretty easy for most local shops to price match.


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## opiants (May 15, 2011)

Thanks.

Not from US and will be buying a custom built wheelset with hope pro 2 and crc is a bargain for the set.


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## zg2tn9 (Dec 19, 2010)

Hi all!
Kindly take a picture of the place the joint rim WTB Frequency I-23 close-up, and place here.
For even earlier thanks.


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## ignazjr (Dec 29, 2003)

*joints*

Here you go. Same rim, different angles. This particular rim went together very well. No hopping or funkiness at the joint. Good stuff.


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## opiants (May 15, 2011)

This is probably a dumb question but do I need a tape on these rims to run tubed/tubeless? If not needed, will adding a tape has its advantages/disadvantages?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Check out the second picture in post #1. See the spoke holes drilled in the rim? Those need to be sealed up by tape to keep the air in the tire/rim from leaking out through the spoke holes. An additional advantage of tubeless rim tape is if your tire fits too loosely on the rim, you can add an additional layer of tape to help the tire bead seal against the rim.

To run tubed, you can use either a rim strip, or use rim tape.



opiants said:


> This is probably a dumb question but do I need a tape on these rims to run tubed/tubeless? If not needed, will adding a tape has its advantages/disadvantages?


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## opiants (May 15, 2011)

I see. Thanks for that.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Here's some more inside/outside pictures, however, my macro lens function isn't as good, the joint is between the two central spoke holes, and have minimal gap, well finished:



zg2tn9 said:


> Hi all!
> Kindly take a picture of the place the joint rim WTB Frequency I-23 close-up, and place here.
> For even earlier thanks.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

Like this thread and love the 4D drilling. 

Wonder if they will make one of these with a little more burl? Like an I25 or so.

4slomo: How strong do you think this rim is compared to a 721? Besides being like 100 grams lighter.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

When built up, the i23 rims feel stronger than flow rims. I'm not as sure of a comparison with a DT-S EX500 rim, as to which might be a stronger build. I'm sure the ENVE AM rim is stronger than an i23 rim.

I don't recall seeing WTB recently building rims wider than a 23mm internal width, so it could be surprising if they came out with one.

Here's an anecdotal testament to the WTB rim design: I built a custom wheelset last year using WTB Laserdisc XC rims (immediate predecessor model to the i19 rim, with eyelets and no beadlock) for a customer. He already had a burlier wheelset for AM, and wanted something lighter for more everyday riding. He liked how the XC wheelset performed so much, that he rode it continually for his favorite ride, which he ends with him taking a 6 foot jump to flat. When he popped an alloy nipple head off of a spoke, he emailed me and we concluded that he might be overriding his wheelset. I told him that his wheelset wasn't designed for such large jumps, and it would be best for the wheelset if he didn't take that jump on his ride. I also told him that if he wanted, we could rebuild it with stronger rims to meet those requirements for his favorite ride, or he could just keep riding his XC wheelset until he trashed the rims, and then rebuild it. So far, he's decided to keep riding and taking the jump. :thumbsup:



fermenter said:


> Like this thread and love the 4D drilling.
> 
> Wonder if they will make one of these with a little more burl? Like an I25 or so.
> 
> 4slomo: How strong do you think this rim is compared to a 721? Besides being like 100 grams lighter.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

Well the build for my 721's came out very strong. Too bad I like to run with low pressure then don't notice when I've lost some air. I'll be replacing the 721 in the rear. I do much admire the angled spoke drilling seen on I23 and 800 series Mavic.

Considering the price point of the 721 and that likely I'll be replacing rims every few years I've got some thinking to do.

Cheers!


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## nameresu (Jun 19, 2009)

4slomo, is there any possibility to safely remove stickers completeley or partially ? I like the rims, but I started to really hate that black-white-red color scheme. Because it, almost literally, everywhere.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Hi nameresu,

I had a customer take off WTB Frequency i23 stickers from both sides of his rims on a custom i23 AM wheel build I did for him because he decided he wanted a more utilitarian look. He said he just peeled them off.



nameresu said:


> 4slomo, is there any possibility to safely remove stickers completeley or partially ? I like the rims, but I started to really hate that black-white-red color scheme. Because it, almost literally, everywhere.


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## myitch (Jan 25, 2004)

Im really interested in this rim. Any ride reports, like after going over a few rocks gardens at speed?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

I got these comments back from a customer riding his custom i23 29er wheels: "Am really liking the 29er wheelset you built for me! Did a rooty/rocky outback trail today on the Inbred SS. What a great ride!
The bike is light and responsive. Very fun and easy despite the fact it was on a SS with a rigid carbon fork."

Check out Post #71 in this On-One thread



myitch said:


> Im really interested in this rim. Any ride reports, like after going over a few rocks gardens at speed?


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## hoolie (Sep 17, 2010)

*4Slomo, Thanks for all posts. I'm In! Ordered Today*

Just ordered WTB 29er i23 set for Chris King Hubs (s.s. rear). 1st set of Kings for me. Love WTB products and been a few yrs since I needed something from them. I've been riding XT 26er set, and XT 29er set (SUPER noodley 9mm on FOX 120, but I love them). I can't wait to compare WTB Frequency i23 29er with my beloved Shimano 29er proprietary 19mm.

XT 19mm 24 spoke
WTB 23mm 32 spoke

Should be interesting wheelsets to play around with. I can't wait.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Any updates on these rims? I'm considering a build with these, but don't have any long(er) term ride reports.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

What length of time is long(er) term to you?



OO7 said:


> Any updates on these rims? I'm considering a build with these, but don't have any long(er) term ride reports.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

4slomo said:


> What length of time is long(er) term to you?


At least a few months. I know that these things just came out not that long ago, so obviously nobody has "years" on them.


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## tedsti (Oct 22, 2004)

WTB changed the spec on the 29er rim on their site. It used to say 470g and now says 530g. Mine came in at 522g and 520g.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

tedsti said:


> WTB changed the spec on the 29er rim on their site. It used to say 470g and now says 530g. Mine came in at 522g and 520g.


Thats no good . . . what are the 26" coming in at?

email sent to 4slomo


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## dangerousmav (May 30, 2006)

Real weight of a 26" 1-23 is 460 (467gr the other i bought)


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## Mr.P (Feb 8, 2005)

tedsti said:


> WTB changed the spec on the 29er rim on their site. It used to say 470g and now says 530g. Mine came in at 522g and 520g.


If they are updating their website with real world weights, then perhaps I will start moving towards trusting WTB again. :thumbsup:

(Their tire weights were listed 100-200g off  their rim weights were listed lighter too - it's the web, it's easy to update when you know the info is off and the production is higher, it's disingenuous )

P


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## djr8505 (Apr 23, 2008)

I got a hold of 2 26er rims the other week and on my "super-precise" harbor freight Scale-o-meter each rim came in at 471 grams.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

ignazjr said:


> Here you go. Same rim, different angles. This particular rim went together very well. No hopping or funkiness at the joint. Good stuff.


I have a honest question. My current Rim is a DT Swiss 5.1, and I think that the join is welded. Is there a difference in strength or durability or flexibility when it's joined like this or welded?


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## djr8505 (Apr 23, 2008)

As far as the joint is concerned, as long as the weld was prepared and laid correctly it should do a better job at keeping the rim round in that location. Lots of jumps and drops where there are high impact forces on wheels have a tendency to split or out of round the connection on pinned rims. This effect is more pronounced when the spokes are not up to proper tension allowing the rim to further deviate. When I rode BMX (street) before MTB the seams had to be welded otherwise I would need to build wheels all the time.


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## dangerousmav (May 30, 2006)

Does anyone made a long term test on this rims? any issue or failure??


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## djr8505 (Apr 23, 2008)

In case anyone is interested I snagged a pair of i23's. As far as inflating is concerned I paired them to wtb weirwolf Tcs and could inflate them with my Blackburn mammoth pump.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

I'll let y'all now first impressions in a couple weeks. Having a set built up with some CK's and DT comps. We'll see how they hold up . . . my gut tells me this is going to be a solid wheel set.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

I've been trying to find out how these 26" I 23 frequency compare in strength to other well known rims with no luck. Looking at other options I came across something interesting.

The one year only 2011 Laser Freeride TCS Rim: Products - WTB

TCS, 23mm internal width and 540 grams.

Compared to the I23 Frequency: Products - WTB

TCS, 23mm internal width and 470 grams

Is it possible they used the same extrusion and wall thickness for both rims and skipped the eyeletts in favor of 4D drilling? Could you shed that much weight by dropping the eyelets? 
I'm still left wondering.......I found a pair of Freeride TCS but if it is the same extrusion I would have better wheels with the Frequency I 23.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

The Freeride looks thicker in the pic but it's pic is larger.


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## djr8505 (Apr 23, 2008)

If you think about it each eyelet probably weighs around 1-2 grams and the extra drilling maybe removes 1/2 a gram from each spoke hole. That works out to around 64-70 grams a wheel.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

So I have only had a chance to put about 50 or so miles on these so far, but they feel much stiffer than the Arches they replaced.
Also going from a 19 to a 23mm inner width gave my 2.1 and 2.3 Bronson's a much better profile.
I've mounted three different WTB TCS (2.1 Bronson, 2.3 Bronson, and Weirwolf) tires on these hoops and they all went on very easily. I'll be trying out a WTB TCS Moto as soon as the brown Santa Claus shows up with it and the weather cooperates.

I can also give a pretty good testimony as to their durability.
Long story short, I broke my derailleur hanger and sucked the derailleur into the wheel and broke three drive side spokes and bent a couple more, and broke my chain. I threw a tube in the tire (spokes broke through the rim tape and flatted my tubeless setup) and hiked up hills and coasted down. I also slammed my dropper and used my bike like a push bike on the flat sections. It was about 4-5 miles back out to my car. I'm 220 lbs geared up and the abuse put a pretty big wobble in the rim that I was worried wouldn't be completely truable. My wheel builder was a little worried too when he got a hold of it. In the end it trued up perfect. My wheel builder was very impressed.

Rear:









Front:









Weight as calculated by the DT Swiss Spoke Calculator (I didn't weigh them myself):
Build: WTB 26" Frequency i23 laced to King iso 15 mm front hub with DT comps and alloy nipples, King iso 10x135 rear with DT comps and alloy nipples:

1907 grams


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## ivarulz (Oct 6, 2011)

I dont think the eyelets make for 60 grams. The Frequency i19 has same weight as Laser TCS XC 19mm


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## djr8505 (Apr 23, 2008)

Here are some pics of my setup:
<img src="https://img710.imageshack.us/img710/9971/wheels2h.jpg"
<img src="https://img94.imageshack.us/img94/4659/wheels3f.jpg" 
<img src="https://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9900/wheels1.jpg"

The front is laced to a Sette 7 20mm hub, the rear is a TBC 10X135.
Sure there is room to make them lighter but they are every bit as stiff as my LD trails they replaced.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

mestapho said:


> Weight as calculated by the DT Swiss Spoke Calculator (I didn't weigh them myself):
> Build: WTB 26" Frequency i23 laced to King iso 15 mm front hub with DT comps and alloy nipples, King iso 10x135 rear with DT comps and alloy nipples:
> 
> 1907 grams


I'm putting together an identical build, though I'm using brass nipples. Everything else is the same. Should be picking them up this Sunday and I'll be sure to weigh them.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

*Clyde AM SS i23 wheelset*

I just completed and shipped a 29er AM Single Speed wheelset with the WTB Frequency i23 rims (UST/TCS profile), DT-S Alpine III spokes, Hadley DH 15TA front hub and Hadley SDH SS 10BO rear hub for a 240 lb riding weight Clyde customer in Germany. Total wheelset rotating weight: 2,129g. I continue to be impressed by the quality of these rims: 527g, 120kgf max. spoke tension, very nice design details. As I finished the build process, the wheels had the feel of having developed high strength, and built up very true. These triple-butted DH-sized spokes can be used with Hadley hubs, and look to give the strength needed for this rider.


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## mtboz (Feb 10, 2010)

I found that the 26 I23 has the same ERD as Mavic xm317, and Stans Flow rims. I saw that the xm717 had the same erd but positive on the information. Great upgrade if your bike comes stock with xm317s. Tubeless and wider.


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## hoolie (Sep 17, 2010)

*4 rides on my new wheels, Then re-rode old XT's. WOW!*

Chris King hubs/DT double butted spokes/WTB Frequency i23 29er wheels. Built by Justin at WRENCH SCIENCE. Awesome. Never had custom before. Why did I wait so long. After 4 rides, had wheels inspected. One wheel needed 2 or 3 spokes adjusted. One hub needed to be tightened. The craziest thing is that I rode my old XT wheelset today. XT 29er was my favorite for the last 2 yrs. No truing in 100's of hours. Shimano is very flexy wheelset and I was used to it and I liked the noodley feel. However, after riding 8 or 9 hours on WTB rims, I don't like the XT set as much, weird feeling if you are not used to it. We will see how they hold up to my rocky trails. NOTE: XT set up as single speed 29er (dished), King/WTB Frequency i23 29er is a Single speed hub, no dish.


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## butasan (May 29, 2009)

Agree.

My laser TCS Freeride rim weighs 580g. There is no way they use the same wall thickness for both rims.



ivarulz said:


> I dont think the eyelets make for 60 grams. The Frequency i19 has same weight as Laser TCS XC 19mm


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## BroSole (Apr 7, 2012)

Is the 23mm inner width between the bead hooks or the distance between the bead seats?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

The internal dimension is defined as between the rim bead hooks, as this deternines how far the tire beads spread when the tire is seated in the rim.



BroSole said:


> Is the 23mm inner width between the bead hooks or the distance between the bead seats?


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

Ordered 26" set and might get to build them before next weekend. Little worried the rim could be too light duty but I'll chalk it up to a learning experiance if it is.

I dent up my rims from time to time. I was going to go with Mavic 823's but at the cost of denting those up...........

Looking forward to the build, there is something very satisfying about it.


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## Super66 (Mar 20, 2012)

Ordered some i23's yesterday and had them laced up to a pair of CK's today. Disappointed in the joint, looks like there a bit of a gap right under the Made in China sticker. I've had sleeve and pinned rims before that had a much nicer union than this. Compared to a sleeve and pinned DT Swiss rim there is a noticeable quality difference.It also took a bit to get them round, both had hops in them. Hoping they last me through the summer but I'm not optimistic. I was on the fence between these and a set of Inferno 29's. Hoping I made the right choice.

Wheel build came in just under 1900 grams.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

*OOfff, Thin*

Got my rims yesterday.....bead hook and sidewall is very thin.
Otherwise rim joint looked very good and nipple chamfering inside looks to make a fery well supported interface for the nipple base.

Compared to my mavic 721 the bead and sidewall are 1.2mm thinner each side.
721= 21mm internal, I23= 23mm internal. The 721 is .4mm wider than the I23 externaly. 2.4mm more beef.

I expected this rim to be less beefy than the 721 but now after checking them I am considering returning them. I don't have a mic to check them but I think the sidewall under the bead hook is 1mm or less thick.

Thinking........


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## PissedOffCil (Oct 18, 2007)

We're talking about a rim that's over 100g lighter, what did you expect?



fermenter said:


> Got my rims yesterday.....bead hook and sidewall is very thin.
> Otherwise rim joint looked very good and nipple chamfering inside looks to make a fery well supported interface for the nipple base.
> 
> Compared to my mavic 721 the bead and sidewall are 1.2mm thinner each side.
> ...


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

Ha, I know..I expected them to be less beefy but not so much just in one area...the top wall the spoke goes through is plenty thick. 

These or 823's.. I don't think I have time to build them tonight before tomorrows ride so I can think about this over the weekend.

Cheers!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

fermenter,
Mavic EX721 were designed for rim brakes originally, and the extrusion profiles never changed. New ones are being made with anodized sidewalls and that's all.

On the other hand, when I tried to find maximum allowable air pressures for Frequency i19 and i23, I found no such information.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

J. Random Psycho said:


> fermenter,
> Mavic EX721 were designed for rim brakes originally, and the extrusion profiles never changed. New ones are being made with anodized sidewalls and that's all.
> 
> On the other hand, when I tried to find maximum allowable air pressures for Frequency i19 and i23, I found no such information.


Per WTB, max pressure is dictated by the tire.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

OO7 said:


> Per WTB, max pressure is dictated by the tire.


Well, then there's nothing to worry about sidewalls being too thin.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

JRP: I was just worried about rim strikes. 

I went ahead with the build and it was a pleasure with these rims. Much less nipple bind in the rim with this directional drilling and back chamfer. 

I will just have to watch my tire pressure closer. 

Set up the front without a tube, Minion DHR2 2.4 Wire bead doublewall. Was able to do it with a floor pump, granted I pumped fast till it caught in at 15psi and quit hissing. Opened the bead and dumped in sealant and did it again with same results.

The rear tire was a maxxis EXO folding tire. I could mount it with 2 fingers I think..... loose fit. I didn't want to chance it so that side has a tube.

I plan on running tubeless ready tires soon.

To quote 4slomo : " As I finished the build process, the wheels had the feel of having developed high strength, and built up very true. "

Other than a slight hop on one of them I'd have to agree.

Cheers!


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

PS: I think a nice product at the price point.


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## murrdogg11 (Apr 4, 2010)

So are these better than flows or what?
Can anyone list the advantages/disadvantages in using these compared to the flow?
price is comparable, so is weight...
mostly interested in durability and tubeless set-up.....which one holds beads better?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Here's a short version:

i23 rims are stronger than flow rims, however the newly released wider and heavier flow ex rim may prove to be stronger yet. i23 rims go best with UST-compliant tires, and I think more durable. Flow rims go best with tubeless ready or standard tires. i23 rims are less expensive, but the old Flow rims are being closed out at sale prices if that is what you are looking at.

You can probably get more details by spending some time reading through the thread.



murrdogg11 said:


> So are these better than flows or what?
> Can anyone list the advantages/disadvantages in using these compared to the flow?
> price is comparable, so is weight...
> mostly interested in durability and tubeless set-up.....which one holds beads better?


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## murrdogg11 (Apr 4, 2010)

4slomo said:


> Here's a short version:
> 
> i23 rims are stronger than flow rims, however the newly released wider and heavier flow ex rim may prove to be stronger yet. i23 rims go best with UST-compliant tires, and I think more durable. Flow rims go best with tubeless ready or standard tires. i23 rims are less expensive, but the old Flow rims are being closed out at sale prices if that is what you are looking at.
> 
> You can probably get more details by spending some time reading through the thread.


Thanks for the reply. thats some good info there.
I did read through the thread however didnt see to many direct comparisons to the flow.
If anyone else has any comparisons it would be appreciated.
Looking to build up 29er wheelset for a tallboy lt.


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## NepaJames (Aug 4, 2011)

murrdogg11 said:


> Thanks for the reply. thats some good info there.
> I did read through the thread however didnt see to many direct comparisons to the flow.
> If anyone else has any comparisons it would be appreciated.
> Looking to build up 29er wheelset for a tallboy lt.


 The frequency i23's are coming stock on the complete Tallboy LT builds? That has to say something.. I'm also on the fence between the i23s vs the flows. I have an original tallboy aluminum, and i'm also looking to build up a new (stronger) wheelset.


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## Rev. 14 (Jan 22, 2012)

NepaJames said:


> The frequency i23's are coming stock on the complete Tallboy LT builds? That has to say something.. I'm also on the fence between the i23s vs the flows. I have an original tallboy aluminum, and i'm also looking to build up a new (stronger) wheelset.


It may only be on Tallboy LTC's and not on the LT aluminums. I just got my Tallboy Carbon about 3 weeks ago and they came with the WTB Freq I23's, with a DT Swiss 350. THe Tallboy aluminum doesn't come with these wheels.

I didn't know about this thread and started a thread about this under the "29er components" section.

I've ridden these wheels hard and fast! Rocky terrain, roots, jumps, logs, you name it. I also had a bad crash last week too. They are a true as can be. What I'm considering is taking this set of my Tallboy C and putting a CK or i9 hubs instead of the DT350's. I'm at 215 with pack and I'm trying to consider what is the best way to go?

I wanted to achieve a lighter rolling weight and was even considering the ZTR Arch EX or Crest's but these have a 21 inner rim width compared to the WTB with 23. So its either save half a pound and smaller inner rim width or stay where I am with wider rim width and CK or i9 hubs.


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## NepaJames (Aug 4, 2011)

hmmm, you sure about the frequency i23's only coming on the carbon builds? The Santa Cruz site says otherwise with the aluminum builds? Santa Cruz Bicycles. Check out the kits and scroll down to the components list. It shows the Aluminum Lt with the wtb i23's as well.

As for which one to go with, honestly I don't know enough about these components to give you advice. I'm a former bmx transplant to the mountain bike world and trying to get a grasp of all of this new information to me. Although I will tell you what my next build will be. Either these i23's or the flows, laced up with the iso Ck hubs with dt double butted spokes. In the process of changing out the rear of the original tallboy with a 10mm Hadley thru axle as well. I weigh around 250, without gear and suited up. I need a stiff build regardless!


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## Rev. 14 (Jan 22, 2012)

Well I've found that I made a HUGE mistake here. My Tallboy Carbon did not come with i23's. Rather, they came with WTB i19's. THe website says 435 grams a wheel for the 29er wheel! Much lighter than the i23 but do not have the 23 inner. So I could also be wrong on the Aluminum as a matter of fact I am wrong on that. :madman:

So Tallboy carbons come with i19's @ 435 grams and DT350 hubs. Still considering swapping these hubs for CK or i9 hubs.


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## Rev. 14 (Jan 22, 2012)

italianbike74 said:


> What about the i19? Anybody have built those rims for xc racing ?
> thanks


As I said above they came standard on my Tallboy carbon.


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## Shalom (Nov 7, 2008)

More love for the i23 - BikeRadar review


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

I just weighed and measured another set of Frequency i23 29er rims for an upcoming wheel build: Weights were 523 and 524 grams. ERDs were 600.7 and 600.8 mm, each averages of three measurements around the two rims. The previous set I measured were 599 mm each.

Make sure you measure your rims before you calculate lengths and order your spokes.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

4slomo said:


> ERDs were 600.7 and 600.8 mm, each averages of three measurements around the two rims. The previous set I measured were 599 mm each.


Looks like they are silently tweaking the profile, as if there was something wrong with the one that had 599 mm ERD.

How many samples do you measure on a rim before averaging the ERD?


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

*Process Drift from Nominal Spec*



J. Random Psycho said:


> Looks like they are silently tweaking the profile, as if there was something wrong with the one that had 599 mm ERD.
> 
> How many samples do you measure on a rim before averaging the ERD?


 They could easily be drifting off nominal for the depth of the chamfer on the backside of the spoke hole. That would affect measured ERD.

Using the published ERD on my 26" build the spoke thread depth looked good to slightly shallow. They were all at the bottom of the slot to just perceptivly a bit higher. Perfect as new it gives a bit of room for tuneups. I didn't have any spoke threads come flush or over the top of the nipple inside the rim.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

I'm comfortable taking up to three measurements on a well-made rim.



J. Random Psycho said:


> Looks like they are silently tweaking the profile, as if there was something wrong with the one that had 599 mm ERD.
> 
> How many samples do you measure on a rim before averaging the ERD?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

fermenter said:


> They could easily be drifting off nominal for the depth of the chamfer on the backside of the spoke hole. That would affect measured ERD.


But there's not so much room for that on Frequency rims, IMHO. That would mean they drilled almost 1 mm too deep on the batch that measured 599 mm. :eekster:



4slomo said:


> I'm comfortable taking up to three measurements on a well-made rim.


On new rims I take 3 measurements too.. guess I'll take more when I get my hands on some i23's. A pair of these is already on the way for a customer..


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## Shalom (Nov 7, 2008)

Another review here


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Reading the singletrack review, it struck me as odd that the reviewer would be evaluating an AM rim from an XC perspective.



Shalom said:


> Another review here


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## Shalom (Nov 7, 2008)

4slomo said:


> Reading the singletrack review, it struck me as odd that the reviewer would be evaluating an AM rim from an XC perspective.


Ja, that confused me a little too. But they seemed to like it all the same . Or they got the wrong specs and were actually meant to be evaluating the i19?


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## patrick2cents (Apr 30, 2010)

Well, I just ordered one of these this past week to build up a rear wheel! I'm hoping it is as good as it has been reviewed.


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## murrdogg11 (Apr 4, 2010)

Looking for some tire recommendations that work well tubeless on the i23 29er rim..
anyone have experience with racing ralph SS, hans dampf or continental x-king or mountain king....
and other good tire recommendations are appreciated.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

murrdogg11 said:


> Looking for some tire recommendations that work well tubeless on the i23 29er rim..
> anyone have experience with racing ralph SS, hans dampf or continental x-king or mountain king....
> and other good tire recommendations are appreciated.


I've only used the WTB TCS tires. Bronson, Moto and Weirwolf. All have been very easy to setup with just a floor pump. Bronsons are my favorite all around tire.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

*WTB Frequency i23 29er, Wheelsmith DB14, Hadley DH/SDH*

Customer riding impressions reported Thursday, 7/19/12: "I have 6 rides of various length. ... Impressions - All I can do is compare to what I have ridden before which in 29er is the Easton Haven. Mavics in 26. These are the best wheels I have owned BY FAR! The Hadley hubs are surgically smooth and efficient. They roll so well when I coast I swear they have a motor in them. The 72 POE is noticeable when riding the techy gnar which is an improvement. I put them through 2 rides that I know if I was riding the Havens they would of needed truing. The WTB i23 rims were a great choice for my 225 lbs. I like running the big profile tires and it helped the tire spread out and get a wider profile. The UST rims seal much better than the Havens. The Havens would slowly loose air pressure between rides. I rode on Saturday and the tires were the same pressure this morning when I went to ride."



4slomo said:


> I just weighed and measured another set of Frequency i23 29er rims for an upcoming wheel build: Weights were 523 and 524 grams. ERDs were 600.7 and 600.8 mm, each averages of three measurements around the two rims. The previous set I measured were 599 mm each.
> 
> Make sure you measure your rims before you calculate lengths and order your spokes.


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## Rev. 14 (Jan 22, 2012)

Nice review, thanks...


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

Im gonna get a set of these soon in 26". has anyone here built them with hope pro 2's? if so what spoke lengths did u use?


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## Spykr (Feb 17, 2011)

I'm waiting on a set of these rims to come in for my new build! Keeping my same hubs (lefty and shimano M475) and using DT Swiss Champion spokes. Should be a sturdy build with decent weight!


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

Spykr said:


> I'm waiting on a set of these rims to come in for my new build! Keeping my same hubs (lefty and shimano M475) and using DT Swiss Champion spokes. Should be a sturdy build with decent weight!


I ordered one last week from modern bike and got it in about 4 days.

I've already got it built up and have put 25 miles on it. Should be tying and soldering the spokes tonight.


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

Metamorphic said:


> I ordered one last week from modern bike and got it in about 4 days.
> 
> I've already got it built up and have put 25 miles on it. Should be tying and soldering the spokes tonight.


do you remeber what the erd was?


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

537

Edit - for 26" hoops


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

I just used the factory value of 599.


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

mestapho said:


> 537
> 
> Edit - for 26" hoops


Did you measure it?


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

Nope. Just used the value from the website. Worked perfectly. 
I used the DT Swiss calculator figure spoke lengths based on that ERD.


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## murrdogg11 (Apr 4, 2010)

Has anybody set up schwalbe hans dampf's or specialized tubeliss ready tires up on these?
my lbs said they really only work well tubeless with WTB TCS tires or UST, but not other tubeless ready brands.
Any feedback?


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

murrdogg11 said:


> Has anybody set up schwalbe hans dampf's or specialized tubeliss ready tires up on these?
> my lbs said they really only work well tubeless with WTB TCS tires or UST, but not other tubeless ready brands.
> Any feedback?


I put a Specl, 2bliss Escar 2.3 on the front I built up a couple months ago. It locks up great. Nice pop as it seats when inflating, good press with the thumb to get it to release when deflating. Floor pump inflates. I experimented with lower pressures. Got down to about 22-23 pounds as indicated on my pump. No burping and it really smoothed out the trail, but there was so much side wall flex at that point that it was uncomfortable to corner. Now, last week i bought a fancy digital tire pressure gauge. What I'm finding is that the gauge on my pump reads about 5 pounds over. I figure I was down in the high teens at that point in reality. At this point I'm running about 23 (true) with no problems as a guy who's 240 in kit. Needless to say I'm pretty impressed with the lock up.

I just finished my i23 rear last night and I'm trying to decide which tire to put on it. Torn between the Captain 2.2 and the Purgatory. I've run Purgatory tires in the past on the old rear and done well, but I think with the extra tire profile from the wider rim the lower rolling resistance of the Captain would be welcome and still give plenty of traction for climbing in the loose.


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

murrdogg11 said:


> Has anybody set up schwalbe hans dampf's or specialized tubeliss ready tires up on these?
> my lbs said they really only work well tubeless with WTB TCS tires or UST, but not other tubeless ready brands.
> Any feedback?


i really doubt thats true; rim has a ust bead. Im sure it works well with all tubeless ready tires; tubeless ready tires have a ust bead but not the ust thick sidewall.


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## murrdogg11 (Apr 4, 2010)

Metamorphic said:


> I put a Specl, 2bliss Escar 2.3 on the front I built up a couple months ago. It locks up great. Nice pop as it seats when inflating, good press with the thumb to get it to release when deflating. Floor pump inflates. I experimented with lower pressures. Got down to about 22-23 pounds as indicated on my pump. No burping and it really smoothed out the trail, but there was so much side wall flex at that point that it was uncomfortable to corner. Now, last week i bought a fancy digital tire pressure gauge. What I'm finding is that the gauge on my pump reads about 5 pounds over. I figure I was down in the high teens at that point in reality. At this point I'm running about 23 (true) with no problems as a guy who's 240 in kit. Needless to say I'm pretty impressed with the lock up.
> 
> I just finished my i23 rear last night and I'm trying to decide which tire to put on it. Torn between the Captain 2.2 and the Purgatory. I've run Purgatory tires in the past on the old rear and done well, but I think with the extra tire profile from the wider rim the lower rolling resistance of the Captain would be welcome and still give plenty of traction for climbing in the loose.


thanks for the feedback....yeah im considering the purgatory for the rear as well...and hans dampf for the front.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

mestapho said:


> 537
> 
> Edit - for 26" hoops


This I can confirm.


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## cm374 (Dec 19, 2008)

*Paid Spam*

Since this thread is still alive and well, just wanted to throw this out there if someone's looking. I'm selling my 29" i23 wheelset. I've seen people post links to their ads before so if this is against the rules just let me know and i'll pull it down. Thanks

NEW WTB Frequency i23 29'er Wheelset - PRICE REDUCED - Buy and Sell and Review Mountain Bikes and Accessories


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Spykr said:


> I'm waiting on a set of these rims to come in for my new build! Keeping my same hubs (lefty and shimano M475) and using DT Swiss Champion spokes. Should be a sturdy build with decent weight!


I'd like to see it with a Lefty set up. Post a pic when done.

When I finally get my new Lefty wheel built up, it will have this i23 rim.


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

I just got mine and weighed them. 453 grams!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

dwyooaj said:


> I just got mine and weighed them. 453 grams!


There must be great variance between batches -- I weighed 2 (26") rims and they were 478 and 479 g.


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## Spykr (Feb 17, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> I'd like to see it with a Lefty set up. Post a pic when done.
> 
> When I finally get my new Lefty wheel built up, it will have this i23 rim.


I can certainly do that!


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## Calhoun (Nov 11, 2008)

murrdogg11 said:


> Has anybody set up schwalbe hans dampf's or specialized tubeliss ready tires up on these?
> my lbs said they really only work well tubeless with WTB TCS tires or UST, but not other tubeless ready brands.
> Any feedback?


I am running a Hans Dampf on this rim and it set up super easy. No problems inflating or keeping pressure. The HD is a great front tire. I also set up the back wheel with a DHF Minion with no problems.


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## ehigh (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm looking to beat these up on some aggressive all mountain riding. I like to case some bigger landings from time to time, you know, eating dirt on gaps with 15+ feet of clearance. In reality I like to roll away on it nice and smoothly, but you never know what a rim is going to have to take. 

Does everyone think these things can take a serious beating? All I do is put my 6 inch AM Norco Range through the trails. I'm just tired of rims being listed as "all mountain" when they can't take some hell from a patch of granite or shale. I feel that AM includes some mild drops and hucks from time to time. That's not freeride, is it?


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## JTeezy (May 1, 2006)

OK...just looking for clarification: Do all "tubeless ready" tires have square shaped UST beads? Is this true for all manufacturers that offer tubeless ready tires? If so, can this be 100% confirmed (i.e. anyone actually heard/read this from credible sources?

I want to mount at Schwalbe Nobby Nic tubeless to my Frequency i23 29er rims.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

historeeteacher said:


> OK...just looking for clarification: Do all "tubeless ready" tires have square shaped UST beads? Is this true for all manufacturers that offer tubeless ready tires? If so, can this be 100% confirmed (i.e. anyone actually heard/read this from credible sources?
> 
> I want to mount at Schwalbe Nobby Nic tubeless to my Frequency i23 29er rims.


My understanding is that the tubeless ready standard is a UST bead but needs to be run with sealant.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Your description of your riding style sounds more like freeride than AM to me, and you would probably be better riding on FR rims.



ehigh said:


> I'm looking to beat these up on some aggressive all mountain riding. I like to case some bigger landings from time to time, you know, eating dirt on gaps with 15+ feet of clearance. In reality I like to roll away on it nice and smoothly, but you never know what a rim is going to have to take.
> 
> Does everyone think these things can take a serious beating? All I do is put my 6 inch AM Norco Range through the trails. I'm just tired of rims being listed as "all mountain" when they can't take some hell from a patch of granite or shale. I feel that AM includes some mild drops and hucks from time to time. That's not freeride, is it?


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## Calhoun (Nov 11, 2008)

ehigh said:


> I'm looking to beat these up on some aggressive all mountain riding. I like to case some bigger landings from time to time, you know, eating dirt on gaps with 15+ feet of clearance. In reality I like to roll away on it nice and smoothly, but you never know what a rim is going to have to take.
> 
> Does everyone think these things can take a serious beating? All I do is put my 6 inch AM Norco Range through the trails. I'm just tired of rims being listed as "all mountain" when they can't take some hell from a patch of granite or shale. I feel that AM includes some mild drops and hucks from time to time. That's not freeride, is it?


Originally I had a i23 built up as a spare DH rim. I have been destroying 823s lately so I wanted a cheap back up. Although I was timid with it as a back wheel I still put some abuse into it. I decided to get a more specific DH rim and had the i23 laced to a 142 hub for my Chilcotin. Sounds like we ride about the same, and I have not had any durability problems thus far. But to be fair, these are not FR rims, and I don't expect them to hold up well to a hard case.


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

i just finished bulding up my 26" frequency rims laced to my old '08 hope pro ii hubs (20 mm front, 135 rear) with dt comp double butted spokes and brass nipples. weight with stans yellow tape applied and tubeless valves installed is 848 g front, 1100 g rear, total 1948 g! saving me over 500 grams compared to my previous setup (mavic 823's, same hubs). If anyone wants to know, spoke lengths I used (from wheelpro's calculator) were front: left 258, right 260 rear: left 259, right 258. Perfect wheelset for my santa cruz butcher.


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## JarOwl (Jun 21, 2012)

Just finished a 29er build w/i23s. This is my first foray into TL and was curious if anyone has experience running WTB race series tires (Bronson/Vulpine specifically) on these rims? I know I can run them tubed but have read others w/good experiences on Stan's and various UST rims.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Eugenemtbing ran a Bronson race tire with the round bead tubeless on his Frequency i23 rim, and had problems with it staying on. Once he switched to a Bronson TCS with the square bead he has had no more problems.



JarOwl said:


> Just finished a 29er build w/i23s. This is my first foray into TL and was curious if anyone has experience running WTB race series tires (Bronson/Vulpine specifically) on these rims? I know I can run them tubed but have read others w/good experiences on Stan's and various UST rims.


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## Spykr (Feb 17, 2011)

I finally, with a helluva lot of help from the guys at my shop, got mine built up! Lefty hub on the front Shimano M475 on the rear, DT Swiss Champion spokes, black brass Wheelsmith nipples! Can't wait to try 'em out on the trail!


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

JarOwl said:


> Just finished a 29er build w/i23s. This is my first foray into TL and was curious if anyone has experience running WTB race series tires (Bronson/Vulpine specifically) on these rims? I know I can run them tubed but have read others w/good experiences on Stan's and various UST rims.


I've only tried them with Specialized 2bliss tires which work very well. I have a Hans Dampf on the way to me in the mail. I'll report on that, hopefully within a week or so.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

ehigh said:


> I'm looking to beat these up on some aggressive all mountain riding. I like to case some bigger landings from time to time, you know, eating dirt on gaps with 15+ feet of clearance. In reality I like to roll away on it nice and smoothly, but you never know what a rim is going to have to take.
> 
> Does everyone think these things can take a serious beating? All I do is put my 6 inch AM Norco Range through the trails. I'm just tired of rims being listed as "all mountain" when they can't take some hell from a patch of granite or shale. I feel that AM includes some mild drops and hucks from time to time. That's not freeride, is it?


 I toiled over the decision to buy these for some of the same reasons but decided I could (and did) flat spot heavier costly rims too. Well I do have a mild flat spot now, never heard the strike, and it did come through the top wall ever so slightly. I'm not disapointed really due to the price but I would call these cross country/trail rims. Def not all mountain.
Cheers!


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## murrdogg11 (Apr 4, 2010)

fermenter said:


> I toiled over the decision to buy these for some of the same reasons but decided I could (and did) flat spot heavier costly rims too. Well I do have a mild flat spot now, never heard the strike, and it did come through the top wall ever so slightly. I'm not disapointed really due to the price but I would call these cross country/trail rims. Def not all mountain.
> Cheers!


I dont like to hear that! i bought these hoping they would be at least as strong as the flow's which held up great for me in the past.


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## murrdogg11 (Apr 4, 2010)

historeeteacher said:


> OK...just looking for clarification: Do all "tubeless ready" tires have square shaped UST beads? Is this true for all manufacturers that offer tubeless ready tires? If so, can this be 100% confirmed (i.e. anyone actually heard/read this from credible sources?
> 
> I want to mount at Schwalbe Nobby Nic tubeless to my Frequency i23 29er rims.


Just wanted to let you and everyone else know i set up the 29er i23's with a nobby nic 2.25 SS on the rear and a hans dampf on the front and they both sealed up great...there was some good beadlock too when i deflated the tire.
i only have one ride on them but no burping and are holding air good.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

One person's FR is another's AM. One's AM is another's Trail. One's Trail is another's XC. The labels are just that: Labels.

A Frequency i23 is not likely going to hold up to consistent 6ft drops and and bigger jumps. It should do okay with 3-4ft drops and medium jumps.

Rider weight, riding style, terrain type, bike design, wheel design lifetime, and etc. all factor into how well a set of wheels will work for a rider.

Happy riding!



fermenter said:


> I toiled over the decision to buy these for some of the same reasons but decided I could (and did) flat spot heavier costly rims too. Well I do have a mild flat spot now, never heard the strike, and it did come through the top wall ever so slightly. I'm not disapointed really due to the price but I would call these cross country/trail rims. Def not all mountain.
> Cheers!


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

4slomo said:


> One person's FR is another's AM. One's AM is another's Trail. One's Trail is another's XC. The labels are just that: Labels.
> 
> A Frequency i23 is not likely going to hold up to consistent 6ft drops and and bigger jumps. It should do okay with 3-4ft drops and medium jumps.
> 
> ...


Ha I agree with everything you said but I still wouldn't call 'em all mountain for the average rider. I am enjoying the lower cost and lighter weight. I hope WTB comes out with a beefier and wider version. I asked them and they won't tell so I think it is being worked on. How about an I27?

I have given it 3-4 foot drops to flat, well maybee not 4, and it holds up. I think the flat spot is a rock strike as that is the normal cause of flat spots for me.

Happy riding? Thanks! Many happy rides to you all.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

A trend towards low, wide profile MTB rims seems to be emerging, so I'd think WTB too may come up with something like i27.


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

well well see how mine holds up with roughish riding under my #220! i dont do big drops on that bike but do hit some rock gardens. If tehy come out with an i27 thatd be awesome, replace my heavy halo combats on my blindside.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

murrdogg11 said:


> I dont like to hear that! i bought these hoping they would be at least as strong as the flow's which held up great for me in the past.


My thought...........
If he's flat spotting beefier rims too, it's not all the rim. The tire pressure and shock tuning to the big hits should probably be considered.

We all want the best ride in all conditions, but we need to plan for the worst hits. Those are the things that break bike parts and body parts.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

ziscwg said:


> My thought...........
> If he's flat spotting beefier rims too, it's not all the rim. The tire pressure and shock tuning to the big hits should probably be considered.
> 
> We all want the best ride in all conditions, but we need to plan for the worst hits. Those are the things that break bike parts and body parts.


 It's my tire pressure for sure but I am running more pressure because I measured these walls to be thinner than the 721's they replaced. As strong as Flows? I couldn't tell you but some people say Flows are soft.

Rear tire (singlewall EXO) is at 30psi for a Maxxis 2.4 and 32 psi for 2.5. The 2.5's are slightly shorter than the 2.4's you know.

Flat spots will be my cost of riding at a low pressure no matter what. I don't think I will raise the pressure much. Shock tuning is where I like it.

I like the rims. I can flick the bike around a little bit more with them. Good times. I'd pay a bit more and give up some light weight for the I27 if they make it.
Wanted 823's for ever. Now I don't think I want to go that heavy after riding these I23's.

Cheers!


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## njnets23 (May 17, 2009)

*WTB i19 29er, CK ISO, DT Swiss Comp - 1500grams*



jamesnorton said:


> just picked up a set of CK hubs laced to 29er wtb frequency i19's pretty darn light. however i didn't get to weigh in grams but under 4lbs for the set w/o cassette.


I had the same:1500 grams the set.
Front comes in at 660gms and the rear at 840gms.
Photo attached.

Of course, the weight savings was canceled out when I went with Bronson 2.2 in front and Wolverine 2.2 in the back, as well as a dropper post (not pictured)... but boy do I love the set up!


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## Spykr (Feb 17, 2011)

I've had mine built up for roughly months now. Tubeless setup was a piece of cake, the wheels feel very stiff, the extra width of the 23mm inner profile gave me gobs more traction, no pinch flats since I got 'em, and they look super clean. Took the stickers off during building because truing them with the stickers on was a bit annoying. Working very well with the Lefty too!








And then this happened...








I had noticed the rear wheel was out of true yesterday when I was just cruising around the neighborhood bike path. I had decided I'd take it into the shop today and get it all trued up, figuring it was because of the rim's natural break in period. But when I put it up on my stand to get it all cleaned up before taking it into the shop...I noticed a spoke nipple had torn right through the spoke hole! Yaaaay! I've only had the things for a few months so they SHOULD be warrantied, and it's likely just a manufacturing defect. Still not exactly happy about it!


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## DaWiseNuthatch (Aug 5, 2012)

4slomo, I'm interested in the i19's rather than the i23's. The 23s' strength is unquestionable to me, can't tell that about the 19's though. What do you think, will an i19 build with supercomps work fine on a hardtail (Giant XTC Aluminum) used a 60-65 kilo rider for commuting round the city (basically everyday riding, using the bike instead of a car or public transport)? The rider is skilled, but still has to jump down from curbs (we have a lot of these in Russia, no dedicated bike roads at all you see) or small obstacles.

The professional wheel builder we have here said our rim choice was basically crap and the rims will be dead soon, is that true?

Thank you!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

DaWiseNuthatch said:


> 4slomo, I'm interested in the i19's rather than the i23's. The 23s' strength is unquestionable to me, can't tell that about the 19's though. What do you think, will an i19 build with supercomps work fine on a hardtail (Giant XTC Aluminum) used a 60-65 kilo rider for commuting round the city (basically everyday riding, using the bike instead of a car or public transport)? The rider is skilled, but still has to jump down from curbs (we have a lot of these in Russia, no dedicated bike roads at all you see) or small obstacles.
> 
> The professional wheel builder we have here said our rim choice was basically crap and the rims will be dead soon, is that true?
> 
> Thank you!


I think that, provided the build is good, you should be fine with i19/super comps at your weight and intended purpose. In around May this year I built a set of those with Sapim Race for a guy slightly heavier than you, and he didn't complain yet.

What _does_ worry me is that fatigue failure pictured above, This may suggest big variance in quality of Frequency series rims.


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## Spykr (Feb 17, 2011)

> What _does_ worry me is that fatigue failure pictured above, This may suggest big variance in quality of Frequency series rims.


Apparently it was due to spoke tension being too high, at least that's what the woman at the warranty center told my bike shop. But I'm inclined to believe it was that accompanied by a manufacturing defect of some sorts. I'll give it an interior look when I get it back.

Good news is that it WILL be warrantied and the replacement will be here in a day or so!


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## ivarulz (Oct 6, 2011)

Honestly I prefer the eyleted Laser TCS, the generation before the Frequency. Removing eyelets doesn't bring any major advantage weightwise, but suits better for the not super-skilled wheel builder.


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## DaWiseNuthatch (Aug 5, 2012)

J. Random Psycho said:


> I think that, provided the build is good, you should be fine with i19/super comps at your weight and intended purpose. In around May this year I built a set of those with Sapim Race for a guy slightly heavier than you, and he didn't complain yet.
> 
> What _does_ worry me is that fatigue failure pictured above, This may suggest big variance in quality of Frequency series rims.


Well this is for my mother, not for me, I don't commute daily, too boring 

As far as the picture above, it does worry me, indeed, but well crap happens  I called wtb yesterday, they said the i19's should be fine, and gave me the recommended spoke tension values, so that the builder doesn't overtighten the spokes, well if he has the required tension tools of course.


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## DaWiseNuthatch (Aug 5, 2012)

4slomo, in the first post you specified a 120kgf max tension, whereas a wtb representative I was talking to yesterday told me 110kgf is the maximum for both the i19's and i23's. Is 10kgf that much of a difference? Which manuals / techdocs did you consult to find out the 120kgf value?

Thank you!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

120 kgf is typical tension for most rims and hubs. I'd think that WTB must have gathered enough failure reports since the Frequency rims were released to suggest slightly lower tension.

Dammit. I've been building all Frequency wheels with 120 kgf.


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## DaWiseNuthatch (Aug 5, 2012)

Now there's this new Flow EX.. so many options these days  And I don't quite like the pic above, should I now be selling both the i19 and i23 to an unlucky guy and get the ZTR? Now ZTR is sometimes said to be crap as well, like it's too soft and goes out of true quite often.. who's right dammit? Or are all those rims faulty except DeeMax?


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## Shalom (Nov 7, 2008)

DaWiseNuthatch said:


> Now there's this new Flow EX.. so many options these days  And I don't quite like the pic above, should I now be selling both the i19 and i23 to an unlucky guy and get the ZTR? Now ZTR is sometimes said to be crap as well, like it's too soft and goes out of true quite often.. who's right dammit? Or are all those rims faulty except DeeMax?


Have you had any issues? If not, keep riding them. :thumbsup:


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

when I called wtb to get max rec. tension a few months ago on teh i23 26" rim, she said, between 110 and 118 kgf. I built them at 113 or so.


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## DaWiseNuthatch (Aug 5, 2012)

Shalom said:


> Have you had any issues? If not, keep riding them. :thumbsup:


I prefer not to wait until I face _issues_ 

Well let's try then. Anybody know how real the WTB warranty is? Will they send a replacement rim to Russia, any experience with that anybody?


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

I wouldnt worry too much about that one picture on this thread of a pulled-out nipple. Looks like simply the result of overtension to me. Getting Flows instaed isnt the answer, they have an evemn lower recommended tension.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

I received an email from WTB today confirming that the Frequency rims are designed for a maximum spoke tension of 125kgf. I had mentioned that I have been building to a maximum of 120kgf, and the response was that my maximum tensions were "perfect." Remember that inexpensive spoke tension meters may not give accurate spoke tensions, and that if your spokes are overtensioned the nipples may pull through the rim spoke holes.

The WTB catalog has a recommended ETRTO tire size range of 28-62mm for the i19 rims. If you are jumping down from curbs and small objects, I would consider riding tire widths of 56-60mm to get sufficient internal tire volume to prevent flat spotting the rims. Some people find that tires wider than 55mm have better support when mounted on a wider rim, such as the i23 rim. Think of the i19 rim as a rim for riding smooth surfaces (such as for smooth trails) and the i23 rim as a rim for riding rough surfaces (such as for rough trails).

I also like Competition spokes better than Supercompetitions, double butted with a 2.0mm spoke diameter at the rim, and brass nipples rather than aluminum nipples for increased durability.



DaWiseNuthatch said:


> 4slomo, I'm interested in the i19's rather than the i23's. The 23s' strength is unquestionable to me, can't tell that about the 19's though. What do you think, will an i19 build with supercomps work fine on a hardtail (Giant XTC Aluminum) used a 60-65 kilo rider for commuting round the city (basically everyday riding, using the bike instead of a car or public transport)? The rider is skilled, but still has to jump down from curbs (we have a lot of these in Russia, no dedicated bike roads at all you see) or small obstacles.
> 
> The professional wheel builder we have here said our rim choice was basically crap and the rims will be dead soon, is that true?
> 
> Thank you!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

DaWiseNuthatch said:


> a wtb representative I was talking to yesterday told me 110kgf is the maximum for both the i19's and i23's.





4slomo said:


> I received an email from WTB today confirming that the Frequency rims are designed for a maximum spoke tension of 125kgf. I had mentioned that I have been building to a maximum of 120kgf, and the response was that my maximum tensions were "perfect."


:skep:


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## DaWiseNuthatch (Aug 5, 2012)

OK I see. But wait, aren't those i19 rims cross-country rated? Are there are no drops at all in cross-country, like they were riding on a parquet indoor track? 

Competitions + i23 + brand nipples == close to 1800 grams of a downhill wheelset, and I wanted to build a light hardtail here for commuting 

Looks like I'll have to sell these again and get some Sun Ringle's Inferno 23's with eyelets.


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

My new rear wheel is ready to go. Hope Pro II Evo 135 x 10mm thru axle on I23 26 inch rim. What to ensure the back of the trail bike was as stiff as possible while keeping the weight down. Will use it with a DT Swiss RWS, that I had from a previous setup. 

I mounted a new Muddy Mary 2.35 on it and was surprised at how tight it was. I kept the basic rim strip in place and used a tube to set it up. Hoping the tire will stretch out a bit as it was quite a struggle to get the tire on the I23 rim. Will let set for a day or so, then pull the rim strip and put a single layer of gorilla tape complete the tubeless setup. Already have the Stans valve stem and sealant. 

Can't wait to see the difference between this and the Sun Ringle Charger Expert that is now on the bike. The Chargers will be relegated to strict XC duties with some lighter weight tires. The I23 w Hope will be my main AM setup. 

I want to see if I am able to swap the end caps for a 12x142 setup and run this rear wheel on the back of my freeride bike for bigger pedal days as well. I took off the 10 x 135 caps and was happy to see a 12mm alxe inside (tested by running my 12 x 150 axle). I should be able to get rid of the second set of FR wheels and have a common set to use between the FR and trail bike. Hopefully the I23 is up to the task. It should as loads of folks have been running the original Flows on their FR bikes with success. If the I23 is equal in strength or prehaps stronger, then it should work great.


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## DaWiseNuthatch (Aug 5, 2012)

Although this is an i23 thread, I think i19 questions are just as well appropriate here:

4slomo, do you think it is possible to use the cx ray with the i19's? Our local wheelbuilder is a big cx ray fan, but seeing the picture above, I'm not sure anymore. Not to say that the wheelbuilder says the "eyelet" drilling on the inside of the rim is uneven and low quality, have you ever come across such manufacturing defects with the Frequency rims?

It may well be that I'll have to return the rims to chain reaction due to the bad eyelets, which is a royal hassle..

Thank you!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

DaWiseNuthatch said:


> Our local wheelbuilder is a big cx ray fan, but seeing the picture above, I'm not sure anymore.


Spoke cross section shape has nothing to do with spoke tension. Only cross section area matters, and it is enough in a CX-Ray for whatever maximum spoke tension allowed for Frequency rims.

In other words, blame the rim or the build, but neither the spoke nor the nipple in the failure pictured.

As for directional eyelet drilling quality, possible critical issues are:

1. more material is removed than should be, or
2. directionality is off.

If they just seem rough in nipple contact areas, build with brass nipples for peace of mind.


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## DaWiseNuthatch (Aug 5, 2012)

OK, just got my pair of i23's at the post office. 485 and 482 grams with the badge, not as light as advertised.

There is some solid gray residue left on the inside of the bead hook, anybody else seen that? Like a tire had been mounted tubeless and that's the leftover sealant, which is of course a crazy idea since the rim is brand new (or at least is said to be).

They seem to have some flex when I squeeze them with my arms, is that ok?

J Random, I see your point, but the problem is, our wheelbuilder doesn't want to to take the "110kgf" figures into account  Like he's been building his wheels with some tension tables, and those 110kgf are totally unnecessary. Maybe I'm using wrong terms when giving him the tension data?

As far as the uneven drilling goes, well, this pair has it as well, that is, some eyelet facets are about 3-4mm wide, some 1-2mm, that's probably what the builder has noticed as well. Is that ok?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

DaWiseNuthatch said:


> OK, just got my pair of i23's at the post office. 485 and 482 grams with the badge, not as light as advertised.


This is normal I think. I've only seen weights around 480 g too.



DaWiseNuthatch said:


> There is some solid gray residue left on the inside of the bead hook, anybody else seen that? Like a tire had been mounted tubeless and that's the leftover sealant, which is of course a crazy idea since the rim is brand new (or at least is said to be).


All Frequency rims that I built with had some very noticeable uneven anodizing (discoloration) in the tire channel, but never a residue.



DaWiseNuthatch said:


> They seem to have some flex when I squeeze them with my arms, is that ok?


Well, why not. This can be felt even in high profile rims such as Giant P-XC when squeezing them radially.



DaWiseNuthatch said:


> J Random, I see your point, but the problem is, our wheelbuilder doesn't want to to take the "110kgf" figures into account  Like he's been building his wheels with some tension tables, and those 110kgf are totally unnecessary. Maybe I'm using wrong terms when giving him the tension data?


He's probably referring to tensiometer conversion tables. Both 110 and 120 kgf readings should be present in such tables for whatever tensiometer he may be using.

Is he suggesting that 110 kgf is too low?



DaWiseNuthatch said:


> As far as the uneven drilling goes, well, this pair has it as well, that is, some eyelet facets are about 3-4mm wide, some 1-2mm, that's probably what the builder has noticed as well. Is that ok?


Now that doesn't sound good! :eekster:

Extrusion profile is constant throughout the rim, thus it sounds exactly like drilling has been made to uneven depth, as if the rim was ever so slightly wavy and the drill bit always went to a fixed depth relative to the machine, not to the rim material.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

I had some grey residue in mine too.


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## mud390 (Jan 27, 2006)

I just setup my wheels tonight (xt hubs and i23 rims). The rims had no residue on the inner surface, but they were a little dirty. I set the wheels up tubeless with some WTB Stout 2.3 tires using a Stan's kit. Everything went smoothly and I was able to set the bead with my floor pump. No compressor needed. At this point, I'm very happy with them. I'm sure that opinion won't change very much once I finally get the bike together.


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## in the trees (Mar 24, 2005)

Regular folding bead tires (Schwalbe) with I23s? Yay or nay? Just wondering how these will setup tubeless with non TL-Ready tires.


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## Larsin (Jul 18, 2012)

I just got the new Moto Fantom 29 Pro and it came with WTB Speeddisc I19 rims. If I were to purchase the WTB Frequency I23 rims, could I just swap out rims and be done? I can't find any full I23 wheelsets anywhere.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Hi Larsin,

The rims have different ERD dimensions, which means different spoke lengths are required. Think custom wheel build. Easy to do.



Larsin said:


> I just got the new Moto Fantom 29 Pro and it came with WTB Speeddisc I19 rims. If I were to purchase the WTB Frequency I23 rims, could I just swap out rims and be done? I can't find any full I23 wheelsets anywhere.


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## Larsin (Jul 18, 2012)

4slomo,

Thank you for the response. I will research that further and hopefully be wheel-building soon!

Larsin


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## slyfink (Apr 15, 2004)

in the trees said:


> Regular folding bead tires (Schwalbe) with I23s? Yay or nay? Just wondering how these will setup tubeless with non TL-Ready tires.


nay. earlier this year I ordered what I thought were TL version of the Fat Albert and mounted them to my i23 (26"). They would blow off on every medium sized jump and under hard cornering. Took me an email to Schwalbe with the serial # to find out they weren't TL ready. Starting last year (I think), all of Schwalbe tires are TL ready, even if they're folding bead. The tires I had bought were older still.


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## kevinboyer (Jan 19, 2012)

So I've been following this thread from the beginning. I'm leaning towards using the i23's. I have found about 3 sets of these wheels built up with DT Swiss 350 hubs. 2 are brand new and 1 used. My question is in regards to the DT 350's. Is it a quality hub? How many poe's? Any issues with them from any users here? I'm 6'2" 180 with gear.


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## Spykr (Feb 17, 2011)

Well after a warrantied rim, and a good few rides back under me, I'm happy to report no further issues! The rim in question did indeed have far too much spoke tension, and coupled with me being an awful wheel builder, the torn spoke hole was kind of inevitable really. So this time I ponied up a few bucks and had my shop lace it up and check my front wheel for correct tension while they were at it! Awesome rims, light, really stiff, and make my 2.2 tires look (and grip) like 2.4's!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

kevinboyer said:


> So I've been following this thread from the beginning. I'm leaning towards using the i23's. I have found about 3 sets of these wheels built up with DT Swiss 350 hubs. 2 are brand new and 1 used. My question is in regards to the DT 350's. Is it a quality hub? How many poe's? Any issues with them from any users here? I'm 6'2" 180 with gear.


350 should be very solid hubs. They replace 340 in DT lineup. As a Star Ratchet type hub, they have 18 POE stock and can be upgraded to 36 POE, but the latter is much more demanding with respect to correct greasing. The coasting mechanism is very modular and lightweight. Water sealing is excellent and AFAIK second to none (although this is speaking from experience with 240 and 340 hubs).

Spykr,
that's good news. Directional drilling certainly makes it easy to keep tightening the spokes beyond 120 kgf.


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## kevinboyer (Jan 19, 2012)

J. Random Psycho said:


> 350 should be very solid hubs. They replace 340 in DT lineup. As a Star Ratchet type hub, they have 18 POE stock and can be upgraded to 36 POE, but the latter is much more demanding with respect to correct greasing. The coasting mechanism is very modular and lightweight. Water sealing is excellent and AFAIK second to none (although this is speaking from experience with 240 and 340 hubs).
> 
> Thanks J. Random Psycho. Is 18 POE a "good" number when it comes to POE?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

kevinboyer,
well... that depends on whether you have already tasted high POE hubs )
16-18 feels broken _at first_ if you're used to, say, 48.
Modern top of the line hubs have those numbers at like 72 and 120.
Mid range hubs are at numbers like 24, 30 and 36.

Personally I'm fine with 24 (Hammerschmidt to fixed hub) and can get used to 18 if needed.
On another bike I'm just as fine with 48 (Hope Pro 2 Trials) but going to go back to instant engaging silent clutch (True Precision Poacher). Ahhh, the silence.

DT Swiss Star Ratchet hubs are rather quiet at 18 POE, by the way. And you don't have to apply lots of grease to achieve it. That's very good in my book.


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## Space Robot (Sep 13, 2008)

What width of WTB rim tape are you guys using for the i23? The 28 mm?


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

cackalacky said:


> What width of WTB rim tape are you guys using for the i23? The 28 mm?


Yes, use the 28mm tape.


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## in the trees (Mar 24, 2005)

cackalacky said:


> What width of WTB rim tape are you guys using for the i23? The 28 mm?


1" Gorilla Tape fits as well.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

in the trees said:


> 1" Gorilla Tape fits as well.


Thick tape adversely affects the bead lock shape.


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## fuenstock (May 14, 2006)

Bringing back an old thread,

Im looking to build a set of i23 rims on dt swiss 240 hubs to replace my tired Mavis sx wheel set. I have only built a handful of wheels and I'm having trouble deciding if I should go with dt swiss super comp or comp spokes? I'm 190lbs ready to ride. I want a light but strong wheel set for trail/am riding with drops to 4' with smooth landings. Nothing to aggressive and no bike park use. Will the comp spokes be noticeably more stiff than the super comp spokes at hard corners/hard pedaling?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I'd go with super comps. A 32-spoke, 3-cross laced wheel (what i23 are designed for) is going to be stiff enough laterally and torsionally with any conceivable spokes, but with thinner spokes it will be stronger.


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## J3SSEB (Jun 1, 2009)

How is an i19 compared to the Arch? I'm talking about durability and feel. Is it easier to mount a tire on a wider or narrower inner rim width, 19 vs 21?


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

I've had Arches then i23's and now FlowEX 650b's. 
I think they are all very equivalent in terms of durability, stiffness, and ease of build. 
The only trouble I had was with the Stan's rear hub. 
I haven't seen any difference in mounting tires on either of my Stan's vs the WTB hoops. All were very easy. I haven't ever had to use anything other than a floor pump to set up tires tubeless.


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## J3SSEB (Jun 1, 2009)

mestapho said:


> I've had Arches then i23's and now FlowEX 650b's.
> I think they are all very equivalent in terms of durability, stiffness, and ease of build.
> The only trouble I had was with the Stan's rear hub.
> I haven't seen any difference in mounting tires on either of my Stan's vs the WTB hoops. All were very easy. I haven't ever had to use anything other than a floor pump to set up tires tubeless.


That's all I needed to hear. Thanks and a rep + :thumbsup:


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## scrublover (Dec 30, 2003)

J3SSEB said:


> How is an i19 compared to the Arch? I'm talking about durability and feel. Is it easier to mount a tire on a wider or narrower inner rim width, 19 vs 21?


Pretty much what mestapho said.

I've got a mix of Arch, Flow, and i19 rims in use on three different bikes - functionally, when getting them up and running tubeless, I've not been able to tell a difference. They've all been equally easy.

Caveat: all with yellow tape, a cup of sealant, and either tubeless ready or full UST tires.

I'm not a hack, ride fairly smoothly, am only 150# soaking wet, and have not been gentle with any of them - they're all working beautifully.

If you're a much larger mammal, or ride like a bowling ball, then the wider rims may work out better, or if you want to run biiiig tires.


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## J3SSEB (Jun 1, 2009)

scrublover said:


> Pretty much what mestapho said.
> 
> I've got a mix of Arch, Flow, and i19 rims in use on three different bikes - functionally, when getting them up and running tubeless, I've not been able to tell a difference. They've all been equally easy.
> 
> ...


I am a bit larger fella, 220 lbs, and I currently use Archs without issue. I'm looking at the i19 because of its price. I can get it about $30 cheaper than the Arch. I was just concerned about the width of the rim. I may give them a try on my single speed. Thanks for the input scrublover.


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## hoolie (Sep 17, 2010)

10 months on WTB i23 set up with db spokes on King hubs, Geax Gato Tubeless ready 28psi. Downieville runs, 1500 ft local downhill runs, and I ride 3 or 4 days per week. Rim rode 1/2 mile out on a flat tire once(on smooth dirt). These are GREAT. Took to wheelbuilder after 10 months, and they did not need to really true wheel. Justin just kinda inspected on truing stand, gave a few nipples a twist to make sure tension was there. Wrench Science built me great wheels. They use spoke tension gauge (as I am sure all professional wheelbuilders do), I am SO glad I did not try to build these myself.


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## J3SSEB (Jun 1, 2009)

I just ordered a set from my LBS today. I'm pretty excited to ride them. They will be laced to a White Industries Eno Eccentric hub.


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## fuenstock (May 14, 2006)

I got my new i23 rims yesturday and built them up today on dt swiss 240 hubs using brass nipples and comp spokes. Very solid feel to them. These are replacing an old set of 2010 mavic sx wheels. I built myself flows on dt swiss 240's last year and the i23 rims feel noticably stronger. I removed the i23 stickers and weighted them at 453g and 452g for the 2 rims. That seems much lighter than the advertised 475g per rim? I have left over 25mm stans tape, will that be ok to use for the i23's? Wtb recommendeds 28mm tape, but would like to use the stans since I already have it. Will the 25mm tape work?


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

fuenstock said:


> I got my new i23 rims yesturday and built them up today on dt swiss 240 hubs using brass nipples and comp spokes. Very solid feel to them. These are replacing an old set of 2010 mavic sx wheels. I built myself flows on dt swiss 240's last year and the i23 rims feel noticably stronger. I removed the i23 stickers and weighted them at 453g and 452g for the 2 rims. That seems much lighter than the advertised 475g per rim? I have left over 25mm stans tape, will that be ok to use for the i23's? Wtb recommendeds 28mm tape, but would like to use the stans since I already have it. Will the 25mm tape work?


I'm pretty sure I sealed mine with a single layer of Stans 25mm tapes. Seems to work alright.


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## flyxaos (May 18, 2006)

fuenstock said:


> I got my new i23 rims yesturday and built them up today on dt swiss 240 hubs using brass nipples and comp spokes. Very solid feel to them. These are replacing an old set of 2010 mavic sx wheels. I built myself flows on dt swiss 240's last year and the i23 rims feel noticably stronger. I removed the i23 stickers and weighted them at 453g and 452g for the 2 rims. That seems much lighter than the advertised 475g per rim? I have left over 25mm stans tape, will that be ok to use for the i23's? Wtb recommendeds 28mm tape, but would like to use the stans since I already have it. Will the 25mm tape work?


I'm doing that exact same build, with dt240 oversize in front, and dt240 in back.

What spoke length did you use for all of them? Are you happy with that length?


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## fuenstock (May 14, 2006)

flyxaos said:


> I'm doing that exact same build, with dt240 oversize in front, and dt240 in back.
> 
> What spoke length did you use for all of them? Are you happy with that length?


I used 259mm for front disk side and 260mm for the rest of the spokes. That was what I calculated using 537 erd and the dt swiss spoke calculator. Length was perfect. After the wheels were tensioned almost all the spoke threads came to the bottom of the nipple driver slot or whith in a thread. My hubs are dt swiss 240 12x142 rear and a 20mm thru axle OS 240 in the front. They were easier to build and true compared to the flows I built last year.


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## fuenstock (May 14, 2006)

Few pictures of the built up wheels with the stickers removed. Stickers came off clean very easy. Weight is without rim tape of valve stems. 
Wtb i23 rims
dt swiss comp spokes
dt swiss brass nipples silver
dt swiss 240s OS 20mm front hub
dt swiss 240s 12x142 rear hub


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

Wish they made this rim in a 36 model for the rear. I can normally get away with 32/32 but prefer 36 out back when possible.


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

fuenstock, i also used 25 mm tape, cuz the lbs was out of 28 mm. So far no problems after 7 months.


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## BoomerBrian (Jun 27, 2011)

Found a good deal on the i23. These are am wheels and I only ride xc. I am 220lbs. Would these be overkill for xc and would I be happier with the i19?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

BoomerBrian said:


> Found a good deal on the i23. These are am wheels and I only ride xc. I am 220lbs. Would these be overkill for xc and would I be happier with the i19?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I've always kind of figured that race gear was too light for Clydes. Trail gear was effectively race gear for Clydes. And that AM gear amounts to Trail gear for Clydes.

I'd go with the 23's. The wider bead set presents a nicer tread-print to the dirt and ends up being less flexy.


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## fuenstock (May 14, 2006)

BoomerBrian said:


> Found a good deal on the i23. These are am wheels and I only ride xc. I am 220lbs. Would these be overkill for xc and would I be happier with the i19?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The i19 is pretty narrow, I would only get those if I was planing of running 2.1 or smaller xc tires. The i23 would be better for 2.2 and larger tires. At your weight I would pick the i23 over i19 unless it was a race wheelset that had to be as light as possible.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

+1 for i23 over i19. You'll hardly notice the weight. I'd even run them with 2.0" if I was racing.


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

Another vote for going i23 over i19 unless they were going to be race specific with a 2.1 or smaller tire on them.


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## BoomerBrian (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks for the input.

Does this look like a good deal? Also how do you know if you could use 15mm thru axle? I am putting these on a Trek Cobia with the stock Recon shock.

WTB Frequency I23 29er Tubeless Mountain Bike Wheelset SRAM x9 Hub 6 Bolt Disc | eBay

WTB Frequency I23 29er Mountain Wheelset SRAM x9 15mm thru Axle Front Hub 6 Bolt | eBay


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

BoomerBrian said:


> Thanks for the input.
> 
> Does this look like a good deal? Also how do you know if you could use 15mm thru axle? I am putting these on a Trek Cobia with the stock Recon shock.
> 
> ...


The specs of the fork will dictate what type of axle/skewer setup you will need. I'm pretty sure the Recon on the Cobia is standard Quick Release which would make a 15mm thru axle not work. Most hubs are pretty easily converted though. I would bring bike to LBS and they'll help you or ask the people you're considering purchasing from the technical questions.
Looking at the pictures of the hubs on the two ads on the ebay ads should give you your answer on what type of skewer/axle system you have. I'm guessing you have the the type in the first ad.


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## ianick (Jul 10, 2006)

Laced up some King hubs, dt comp spokes and i23's yesterday. They feel pretty burly. Hoping to get a ride on them today.


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## J3SSEB (Jun 1, 2009)

I hope to get a ride on these soon. I am waiting for a new frame to put them on. They feel pretty solid and aren't as heavy as I thought.


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## BoomerBrian (Jun 27, 2011)

Ordered a set today. Can't wait to try them.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## sergey_1987 (Feb 12, 2013)

Does anyone know maximum rider weight and maximum tire pressure for i19 and i23?


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

sergey_1987 said:


> Does anyone know maximum rider weight and maximum tire pressure for i19 and i23?


I can't imagine a rim this burly having a max rider weight, it's going to be more about quality of the person doing the wheel build and perhaps using stronger spokes in lacing them up. Someone else mentioned that they don't make this rim in a 36 hole drilling so if your a superclyde, that isn't an option.


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## sergey_1987 (Feb 12, 2013)

Thank you. So, front wheel (on suspension fork) laced on i19, DT revolution spokes and Syncros hub will be ok for non-agressive riding (city and light XC without drops) for a 200lbs person? Also if I set 622*32 tire at 70psi wouldn't I damage the i19 rim?


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

sergey_1987 said:


> Thank you. So, front wheel (on suspension fork) laced on i19, DT revolution spokes and Syncros hub will be ok for non-agressive riding (city and light XC without drops) for a 200lbs person? Also if I set 622*32 tire at 70psi wouldn't I damage the i19 rim?


Why would you want to run that much pressure? I'm 250lbs and even when I'm riding out on the streets I only take it up to about 45-50psi max?

At 200lbs you can ride on pretty much any mtb rim you want for the riding style you mention, just dont try to ride anything with too low of spoke count.


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## sergey_1987 (Feb 12, 2013)

cpfitness said:


> Why would you want to run that much pressure? I'm 250lbs and even when I'm riding out on the streets I only take it up to about 45-50psi max?


I was wondering if the rim is going to explode under 70psi pressure. I pump that because I use narrow semi-slick (Nokian Ravagozzi Cross S 622*30) with 65-90psi recommended inflation perssure. For XC I use Maxxis Aspen 29*2.25 at 30-50psi.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

sergey_1987 said:


> I was wondering if the rim is going to explode under 70psi pressure. I pump that because I use narrow semi-slick (Nokian Ravagozzi Cross S 622*30) with 65-90psi recommended inflation perssure. For XC I use Maxxis Aspen 29*2.25 at 30-50psi.


Gotcha. Im pretty confident you will be fine as you have to remember that mtb wheels dont have a braketrack that is getting worn down that can become a weak point

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

ianick said:


> Laced up some King hubs, dt comp spokes and i23's yesterday. They feel pretty burly. Hoping to get a ride on them today.
> 
> View attachment 770122


Any chance you can reveal what spoke lengths you used for your I23 and your CK hubs??

I thinking I will building a new rear wheel up soon.

It will be my first jump into wheel building, so I'm ordering extra patients with my spokes..............What could go wrong...............


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

buy the rims and take erd measurements yourself. the rims you receive could be slightly different from the rims he got and that can be enough to throw your build totally out of wack.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I'll +1 on that, given weight variations of 26" sized i23 rims found in this thread (450-480 g or so).


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

cpfitness said:


> buy the rims and take erd measurements yourself. the rims you receive could be slightly different from the rims he got and that can be enough to throw your build totally out of wack.


Thanks, I will do that. I guess it's the same old, same old..................your mileage my vary.


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## BoomerBrian (Jun 27, 2011)

Wheels came in today. They are tubeless ready but don't I need to add some Stan's rim tape to cover the spoke holes?


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

BoomerBrian said:


> Wheels came in today. They are tubeless ready but don't I need to add some Stan's rim tape to cover the spoke holes?


Yep you'll need some yellow tape and sealant.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

BoomerBrian said:


> Wheels came in today. They are tubeless ready but don't I need to add some Stan's rim tape to cover the spoke holes?


yes, you need tape. WTB has this WTB TCS Rim Tape > Components > Tires and Tubes > Rim Strips | Jenson USA Online Bike Shop you also need the tubeless valves or did they include them?

Stan's No Tubes Universal Presta Valves > Components > Tires and Tubes > Tube Misc. Parts | Jenson USA Online Bike Shop


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## BoomerBrian (Jun 27, 2011)

cpfitness said:


> yes, you need tape. WTB has this WTB TCS Rim Tape > Components > Tires and Tubes > Rim Strips | Jenson USA Online Bike Shop you also need the tubeless valves or did they include them?
> 
> Stan's No Tubes Universal Presta Valves > Components > Tires and Tubes > Tube Misc. Parts | Jenson USA Online Bike Shop


Thanks...I have a roll of stans tape and sealant already. I need to pick up some valves tomorrow.

One more question. You only need to put the tape around the rim once?


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

BoomerBrian said:


> Thanks...I have a roll of stans tape and sealant already. I need to pick up some valves tomorrow.
> 
> One more question. You only need to put the tape around the rim once?


yes. I don't know what wheels you ended up going with but i know wtb makes tape rolls specific to the width of their rims but as long as the spoke holes are covered I don't see why it would really matter.

What tires are you going with?


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## BoomerBrian (Jun 27, 2011)

cpfitness said:


> What tires are you going with?


Geax TNT Seguaro
Geax TNT AKA


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

BoomerBrian said:


> Geax TNT Seguaro
> Geax TNT AKA


Nice, I'm a newbie to mtb and I got a deal on Geax Mezcal tnt and they mounted up super easy with a pump. They have very little tread and it's winter here in NY so I just got a set of geax sturdys which also mounted up easy with a pump. The mezcals were a very fast rolling tire. Couldn't find much info on them. They probbly didn't sell very well hence me getting them for less than $30 a tire which is unheard of for a tubeless ready tire. Vittoria makes great road bike tires which is why I decided to go with the GEAX.


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## flyxaos (May 18, 2006)

fuenstock said:


> I used 259mm for front disk side and 260mm for the rest of the spokes. That was what I calculated using 537 erd and the dt swiss spoke calculator. Length was perfect. After the wheels were tensioned almost all the spoke threads came to the bottom of the nipple driver slot or whith in a thread. My hubs are dt swiss 240 12x142 rear and a 20mm thru axle OS 240 in the front. They were easier to build and true compared to the flows I built last year.


Thanks for the reply.

One more question I can't seem to find the answer to. Is there any special way to lace them since they are "4D" drilled? It appears it is just that you use the left side holes in the rim for left side of hub. But I wasn't sure if it is more specific than that. As in each hole specifically for one of the 4 positions on each side.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Yes, it is more specific, in that they are drilled for 3 cross lacing with a typical sized hub (say, 38-62 mm hole circle diameter flanges).


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## BoomerBrian (Jun 27, 2011)

Finally got these out on the trails.

My initial impressions is I like them. There are a couple hundred grams lighter than what I had and the hubs are noticeably better than what I had.

Couple of things I didn't like was the stickers and the paint scratches easily. I liked part of the stickers but some of it seemed like an advertisement and I didn't care to see all of the features of the wheel on the sticker.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

BoomerBrian said:


> Couple of things I didn't like was the stickers and the paint scratches easily. I liked part of the stickers but some of it seemed like an advertisement and I didn't care to see all of the features of the wheel on the sticker.
> View attachment 775118


Agreed, unfortunately it seems to be how all hoops and tires are now.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

BoomerBrian said:


> Couple of things I didn't like was the stickers and the paint scratches easily. I liked part of the stickers but some of it seemed like an advertisement and I didn't care to see all of the features of the wheel on the sticker.


Agreed, unfortunately it seems to be how all hoops and tires are now.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Did not post it here when I got them - the pair I had weighted in at 448 and 488g, with stickers. That seems a bit on the high side of variations. Heavier goes in the back wheel, so it is good.

What weights did you get?



J. Random Psycho said:


> I'll +1 on that, given weight variations of 26" sized i23 rims found in this thread (450-480 g or so).


For 40g difference, thickness of the rims, measured with digital calipers, was within 0.05mm between those two.


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## fuenstock (May 14, 2006)

Axe said:


> Did not post it here when I got them - the pair I had weighted in at 448 and 488g, with stickers. That seems a bit on the high side of variations. Heavier goes in the back wheel, so it is good.
> 
> What weights did you get?
> 
> ...


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## monkeyninja (May 11, 2010)

I'm interested in a set of 26" i23 rims, how would standard maxis ardent 2.25 and a 2.5 minion work with these rims if I was to try and set them up tubeless. I had read they work better with tubeless ready tires. Would flow ex be a better option?


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

monkeyninja said:


> I'm interested in a set of 26" i23 rims, how would standard maxis ardent 2.25 and a 2.5 minion work with these rims if I was to try and set them up tubeless. I had read they work better with tubeless ready tires. Would flow ex be a better option?


2.25 would be fine on an i23. I think if you want to run big daddy's like the 2.5 Minion you would be better off with a FlowEX.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

mestapho said:


> 2.25 would be fine on an i23. I think if you want to run big daddy's like the 2.5 Minion you would be better off with a FlowEX.


Why do you think that that tiny, non-standard bead on EX will be better?


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

Axe said:


> Why do you think that that tiny, non-standard bead on EX will be better?


Was actually just considering the width of the rim itself. My FlowEX's give my wider tires (only 2.35) a better profile than my i23's did.
I'd imagine that 2.5 beast like the Minion would only benefit that much more.

Also, I've never had an issue with Maxxis tires on Stan's hoops.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

mestapho said:


> Was actually just considering the width of the rim itself. My FlowEX's give my wider tires (only 2.35) a better profile than my i23's did.


I can't get around trusting a bead that is half the size that the tire was designed to use. Obviously, YMMV. Do not know about Maxxis.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Axe said:


> I can't get around trusting a bead that is half the size that the tire was designed to use. Obviously, YMMV. Do not know about Maxxis.


I agree. The tires are design for use with hook bead rims. The Notubes rims have little hook and the inner sidewall height is lower than the height of the tire bead.


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## monkeyninja (May 11, 2010)

So if I go for new rims I need new tires?


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

monkeyninja said:


> So if I go for new rims I need new tires?


Your question is unclear. The WTB Frequency rims are designed for tubeless use only with tubeless/UST/tubeless ready tires.

I do not recommend using any standard tire and/or rim without an inner tube.


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## monkeyninja (May 11, 2010)

I do not recommend using any standard tire and/or rim without an inner tube.[/QUOTE]

That's the info I was looking for. Thanks


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## BoomerBrian (Jun 27, 2011)

I've been running a standard tire tubeless on mine with no issues.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

I've heard from WTB that they have made a few continued refinements to the Frequency rims that are presently shipping: 
1. They are now using the WT69 alloy also used in their Stryker rims (no more Series 7000 aluminum alloy), which makes the rims stiffer and about 5% lighter in weight. 
2. They have also changed the inside spoke nipple hole chamfering geometry, so it more closely supports the nipple and leaves more material in the nipple seat, which should further increase durability.
Thanks WTB!


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

4slomo said:


> leaves more material in the nipple seat, which should further increase durability.
> Thanks WTB!


Did you hear about any failures from spokes pulling through?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

I've only heard of one failure, which appeared to be due to someone grossly overtensioning a spoke, probably due to inexperience. I continue to be greatly impressed by these rims.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

4slomo, that's great info. 



Due to directional drilling (excellent feature), it's really easy to overtension spokes on Frequency rims if one has no idea how 1200 N feels with the spokes he's using and no way of measuring tension.

I keep recommending those rims on local forums with phrases like "I'd build with them a wheelset for myself".


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

Whaaaa! I'm having early adopter syndrome.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Metamorphic said:


> Whaaaa! I'm having early adopter syndrome.


Me too. Bought older version on sale, now will be riding thinking they are not light and strong enough.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

But now you have an excuse to ride the hell out of them )


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

J. Random Psycho said:


> But now you have an excuse to ride the hell out of them )


I actually found the stickers I took of the rims, and it says "WT69". So I guess I got newer ones. Still bummed at such a large weight difference, does not sound right.


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## fuenstock (May 14, 2006)

Axe said:


> I actually found the stickers I took of the rims, and it says "WT69". So I guess I got newer ones. Still bummed at such a large weight difference, does not sound right.


When did you buy your rims? I bought mine last month so maybe I have newer ones to? I removed the stickers so now I have no way of knowing.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

fuenstock said:


> When did you buy your rims? I bought mine last month so maybe I have newer ones to? I removed the stickers so now I have no way of knowing.


Treefort, few weeks back, they price matched. WTB website still lists them as 7000 alloy - but the sticker clearly states WT69 - extra icon, not like on picture on web site.


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## VO2 Lax (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm having a heck of a time trying to seat my i23 s ti a set of nano tcs tires, sealant, 28 mm rim tape wtb valves, everything WTB. New to tubeless also, any tricks or tips? Using a high pressure hand pump, will an air compressor help guarantee a seating? Oh this is for a29er setup too.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

VO2 Lax said:


> Using a high pressure hand pump, will an air compressor help guarantee a seating?


A high volume track pump would suit better.. a compressor, much better.


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## BoomerBrian (Jun 27, 2011)

VO2 Lax said:


> I'm having a heck of a time trying to seat my i23 s ti a set of nano tcs tires, sealant, 28 mm rim tape wtb valves, everything WTB. New to tubeless also, any tricks or tips? Using a high pressure hand pump, will an air compressor help guarantee a seating? Oh this is for a29er setup too.


Have you tried soap and water?

Air compressor will definitely help.


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## VO2 Lax (Jan 2, 2011)

I am using a high volume pump, and I have not tried the soap and water since WTB markets it as a mount and pump tire. I have an air compressor coming tomorrow so I'm give that a shot. Any excuse to by new tools for the garage is fine with me.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

VO2 Lax said:


> I'm having a heck of a time trying to seat my i23 s ti a set of nano tcs tires, sealant, 28 mm rim tape wtb valves, everything WTB. New to tubeless also, any tricks or tips? Using a high pressure hand pump, will an air compressor help guarantee a seating? Oh this is for a29er setup too.


That seems odd. What do you have for the rim strip and valve?

Be gentle with the compressor. Easy to over inflated and blow it off, though I expect it will not be as sensitive as regular tire bead on Stan's hooks.


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## VO2 Lax (Jan 2, 2011)

WTB (aka Stan's) 28mm rim tape, and WTB Valves. Everything WTB and it won't seat with my high volume pump. Even when I remove the presta core. I've followed everything to WTBs specs, still no dice.

I just want to get enough air pressure with the compressor to inflate and I'll do the rest by hand.

Thanks for the tip.


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## VO2 Lax (Jan 2, 2011)

What a pain in the ass this tubeless process was. Used the air compressor, no go! So WTB's claim of seating it with a floor pump, is just that, a marketing claim. I'm sure it worked for some but not on my 29er wheels. Not bashing WTB, but I should've of know that marketing is marketing.

To get it to work, I had to put in a tube, seat the tires, take out the tube so that one side is seated and then pumped it up with the air compressor and it finally worked. Not immediately, but after a few tries. Once seated, I deflated, took out the air core, and added Stan's via syringe, and re-pump.

After the wheel set, unplanned TCS tires, rim tape, valves, misc. tubeless stuff, and air compressor, my tubeless curiosity set me back an close or over $1K. Sheesh...

Hope it's worth it. I've yet to have a flat with tubes and tire liner, I know it's more weight but I'm not a gram counter and snake bites are very RARE with my low tire pressures.

At least I got an air compressor?


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## BoomerBrian (Jun 27, 2011)

Must be the tires. My geax tires seated right up.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

VO2 Lax said:


> At least I got an air compressor?


And 2 nice wheels that you can still ride with tubes if you abandon the tubeless way.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

VO2 Lax said:


> So WTB's claim of seating it with a floor pump, is just that, a marketing claim.


I can seat Hans Dampfs and Nobby Nic with a compact pump. Just as I could seat them on Shimano's UST rims. Did not try Geax, but I think it will be the same result. I also use CaffeLatex instead on Stan's (now their new formula). For some reason it seems easier to do the initial seal

Did you install rim strip with enough tension? You need to really pull on it, so it goes over the ramp very tightly.


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## VO2 Lax (Jan 2, 2011)

You're right about the wheel set.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

VO2 Lax said:


> I'm having a heck of a time trying to seat my i23 s ti a set of nano tcs tires, sealant, 28 mm rim tape wtb valves, everything WTB. New to tubeless also, any tricks or tips? Using a high pressure hand pump, will an air compressor help guarantee a seating? Oh this is for a29er setup too.


A high volume pump from top peak (i think they call it mountain or something)
Also, take the valve core out of the stem, pump it up and let it seat. Wait a minute, then let the air back out (slowly). Replace the core and pump to desire pressure.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

VO2 Lax said:


> What a pain in the ass this tubeless process was. Used the air compressor, no go! So WTB's claim of seating it with a floor pump, is just that, a marketing claim. I'm sure it worked for some but not on my 29er wheels. Not bashing WTB, but I should've of know that marketing is marketing.
> 
> To get it to work, I had to put in a tube, seat the tires, take out the tube so that one side is seated and then pumped it up with the air compressor and it finally worked. Not immediately, but after a few tries. Once seated, I deflated, took out the air core, and added Stan's via syringe, and re-pump.
> 
> ...


simma down now, you f'd this up i know half a dozen people with wtb tcs rims and none of the issues you mention. I seated mine with a floor pump. when I initially had trouble it was because i didn't use enough soap suds. Redid it with a liberal amount of soap suds on the tire and the rim and got it to seat right away with the floor pump. also using geax tires


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## BoomerBrian (Jun 27, 2011)

I don't think he used soapy water. I recommended it on the previous page and I don't think he took the tip.


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## VO2 Lax (Jan 2, 2011)

Why would I use soapy water if wtb claims you don't need it. Bottom line is this, I used everything fro the wtb tcs line and it didn't seat for me with a hand pump. And yes the tape I was tight. I'm not pissed off, Just sharing an experience. Im glad you guys had success with with other tire brands but im not going to buy an arsenal of tires to see which works.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

Never had an issue with TCS tires on i23's. I've used three different TCS tires (Moto's, Bronson's and Weirwolf's) and all mounted with a floor pump. I've also mounted a non TCS Wolverine and a Maxxis TLR tire. I bet your issues came down to technique.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

VO2 Lax said:


> I'm not pissed off, Just sharing an experience.


And we are just curious, so in case we can identify some problem/mistake we could learn from it.


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

VO2 Lax said:


> Why would I use soapy water if wtb claims you don't need it.


 Because it costs like 5 cents and it works. The only time i have trouble seating tubeless tires on my i23 or mavic ust rims is when i didnt use soapy water.


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## VO2 Lax (Jan 2, 2011)

You are right it could've boiled down to technique, as stated In my postings I'm new to tubeless and my curiosity was an expensive one. So I'm hoping to let some other guy that's sitting around wondering if he/she gets all wtb tcs stuff it might not be as easy as they think or make it out to be, especially if you're new to tubeless. Or it might be easy and they can share their Experience as a newbie to tubeless and let others decide.


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## ivarulz (Oct 6, 2011)

WTB TCS - very easy to use
My first tubless experience went very smooth with a floor pump
Schwalbe SnakeSkin - a pain
Had to use the method with the tube, seat on one side and pray that the other side will seat. This is because of the stiff sidewalls
Continental Protection - same as Schwalbe - a pain due to stiff sidewalls
Maxxis UST - very easy with a floor pump


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## BoomerBrian (Jun 27, 2011)

VO2 Lax said:


> Why would I use soapy water if wtb claims you don't need it. Bottom line is this, I used everything fro the wtb tcs line and it didn't seat for me with a hand pump.


As Dr. Phil would say. "How did that work out for you?"

Bottom line is you posted in and people offered advice that had experience with these rims and you chose to ignore them. That is your decision. Glad you got them done though.


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## VO2 Lax (Jan 2, 2011)

BoomerBrian said:


> As Dr. Phil would say. "How did that work out for you?"
> 
> Bottom line is you posted in and people offered advice that had experience with these rims and you chose to ignore them. That is your decision. Glad you got them done though.


I get your point, what I'm trying to do is let someone that's curious about the WTB TCS system to know that it might not be as easy as marketing states, even if you use all of their products. I did all the research and watched all the videos about how you don't need an air compress, or soap suds, etc., etc., so I was just trying to see if I can do they as claim. If my tube method didn't work, I would've tried the soap suds, but I didn't get to that next level. Plus most peoples experience was a mix and match of tires and rims and soap suds.

I am sure there are a lot of successful users out there, I was not one of them. And I'm sure it had to do something with my experience in mounting tubeless tires. So newbies to tubeless beware, your curiosity might end up costing you a bit more than planned. That's all I'm trying to say.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Well, some tire-rim combos are just a beetch to set up tubeless even if they are both UST. I remember having to fight with a pair of Continental Mountain King 2.2" UST and Mavic XM819 Disc back in 2008. Did the soap trick, the belt trick, had high volume track pump, but sweated profusely while working the pump nevertheless. XC Schwalbes and Maxxises of the time set up quickly on the same rims.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Using soapy water is standard operating procedure. Any vendor telling you that it's not is simply marketing hype. Now that you know this, try it again using soapy water and I'm sure you will be much happier with the process. The only issue I have had is a tire that was somewhat tough to get mounted onto the rim but that makes me feel good knowing that it probably won't blow off in a catastrophe either.


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## Collins (Feb 23, 2013)

I'm not getting them, but somebody should...
Art's Cyclery Pro Build Pro AM Wheelset


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

cpfitness said:


> Using soapy water is standard operating procedure. Any vendor telling you that it's not is simply marketing hype. Now that you know this, try it again using soapy water and I'm sure you will be much happier with the process.


I pretty much never used soapy water now. Works as is. Maybe dab a bit of sealant on the bead before pumping it up.


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## suspman (Dec 2, 2005)

Ok guys, has anyone used I23 rims with a Race Bronson 2.3 stans rim tape and rim strip? I currently am running Flow rims and the thin sidewall allows for easy flat spots but overall very strong and the sidewall can be bent back. However, I don't want this issue and hte Flow EX's are wide but heavier supposedly. So I'm looking to replace a flow with a I23 and I currently use the rim strip to keep the tire on cuz the yellow tape didn't work.
Does the WTB tape work better or worse thant he yellow tape?


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

suspman said:


> Ok guys, has anyone used I23 rims with a Race Bronson 2.3 stans rim tape and rim strip? I currently am running Flow rims and the thin sidewall allows for easy flat spots but overall very strong and the sidewall can be bent back. However, I don't want this issue and hte Flow EX's are wide but heavier supposedly. So I'm looking to replace a flow with a I23 and I currently use the rim strip to keep the tire on cuz the yellow tape didn't work.
> Does the WTB tape work better or worse thant he yellow tape?


Yellow tape is yellow tape regardless of who packages it, it's all the same.
I've never had to use anything but one layer of tape to have a tire mount
without issue on either a Stan's rim (Arch or FlowEX) or the i23. 
I've only used the TCS Bronsons and not the race version, but I believe 
the only difference is the sidewall. The bead should be the same.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Eugenemtbing used a Bronson Race 2.3 on a Frequency i23 rim and blew it off. He changed to a TCS Bronson and had excellent results since. The WTB tape is supposedly rebranded Stans tape.



suspman said:


> Ok guys, has anyone used I23 rims with a Race Bronson 2.3 stans rim tape and rim strip? I currently am running Flow rims and the thin sidewall allows for easy flat spots but overall very strong and the sidewall can be bent back. However, I don't want this issue and hte Flow EX's are wide but heavier supposedly. So I'm looking to replace a flow with a I23 and I currently use the rim strip to keep the tire on cuz the yellow tape didn't work.
> Does the WTB tape work better or worse thant he yellow tape?


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

4slomo said:


> Eugenemtb used a Bronson Race 2.3 on a Frequency i23 rim and blew it off. He changed to a TCS Bronson and had excellent results since. The WTB tape is supposedly rebranded Stans tape.


Yep I'm wrong they do have different beads. The TCS will be a better choice for a tubeless setup.


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## suspman (Dec 2, 2005)

Hmm, so it sounds like swapping a rim strip for a tcs bead, weight wise at least. I blew a tire off a flow w just tape and required the flow strip and had no problems. I would just like to not use the tcs tires as they are sooooo heavy. I run Flows with strips and Nevegals and never burped em or got close to de beading them. I wonder if the WTB bead lock works imilarly to the Stans Bead socket, minus the shorter rim sidewall that is?


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## eugenemtbing (Nov 16, 2010)

WTB was kind enough to send me a free TCS replacement on my Bronson Race, and I have many miles on it running tubeless with yellow tape and sealant on an i23 rim. Great volume and grip -- it made a good first impression on me for WTB TCS tires.

And, yes, the non-TCS Bronson blew off my i23 on a downhill when I was running it without a tube and just sealant and tape. Since then, I have stuck with tires with UST-type beads (TCS/TNT/TLR/etc.) on my i23 wheels -- all if which are fantastic and built by 4slomo. Have had zero problems since.


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## suspman (Dec 2, 2005)

Cool thanks.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

*Does this i23 rim make my rear (tire) look fat?*

I recently completed a 29er wheelset using the new Frequency i23 WT69 rims for Eugenemtbing. I got really nice results building the wheels, using CK hubs, CX-Ray spokes, and i23 rims.







http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/new-29er-wheelset-843482.html


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## Shalom (Nov 7, 2008)

Ooooo, the new offerings from WTB look good. A new KOM i23 (lighter rim), and even an i25!

WTB's New Enduro, Tubeless CX, And Pavement Tires - BikeRadar


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## vincavinz (May 12, 2012)

So, any idea when they will be out?


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## Shalom (Nov 7, 2008)

If you read the link, you now know as much as I do. Maybe ask your LBS to put in a query? Or try emailing WTB directly?


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## wheatgerm (Jan 30, 2006)

Shalom said:


> Ooooo, the new offerings from WTB look good. A new KOM i23 (lighter rim), and even an i25!
> 
> WTB's New Enduro, Tubeless CX, And Pavement Tires - BikeRadar


Nice find Shalom! I see WTB rims in my future!


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## vincavinz (May 12, 2012)

The KOM i23 looks nice! It says that the CX offerings will be ready for the 2013 season, so hopefully they'll be released by late summer...


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## RaptorAddict (Oct 29, 2011)

Damn you guys are fast! I was going to post that i25 news !

Pretty excited about both rims! The KOM i23 will make a sweeeet trail rim! That i25 looks amazing too!

Decisions decisions...


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

so want the i25s and the vigilante tire!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I already want a pair of ST TCS i25 on my do-all hardtail..


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## eugenemtbing (Nov 16, 2010)

4slomo, do you know how the new KOM i23s compare to the wheels you just built for me with the new WT69-alloy i23 rims?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

The cross section I saw of the KOM i23 shows it doesn't have the central "I" beam construction, so it will be lighter, but likely not as strong.



eugenemtbing said:


> 4slomo, do you know how the new KOM i23s compare to the wheels you just built for me with the new WT69-alloy i23 rims?


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## eugenemtbing (Nov 16, 2010)

Ok, thanks. I would rather opt for rim strength and a slight weight penalty.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

KOM i23 for the front, Frequency i23 for the rear -- looks like an intended combo to me.


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## PissedOffCil (Oct 18, 2007)

Are you sure this pic is the KOM? I thought it was the other pic with I-beam...


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## wheatgerm (Jan 30, 2006)

I think the other rim picture with the i beam is the i25 and i19. 

Until he posted it, I did not see the ibeam-less rim picture. The caption says its the KOM TCS i23. 

I wonder if the loss of the I beam will be a huge deal. Stan's and Mavic don't use it...


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## PissedOffCil (Oct 18, 2007)

It's the caption in the article that's not good... I thought the version without I-Beam was for their CX rim but it does look on the wide side...

We'll have to see for the effect of the I-Beam on stiffness but it was the reason I was considering it over the Pacenti TL28. Hopefully we can get our hands on them soon and get some feedback and reviews. Does anybody have an ETA?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Regarding i23 weights again.. I've just weighed a pair of 26" Frequency i23, bought at CRC about 2 weeks ago. Both are 482 g.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Regarding i23 weights again.. I've just weighed a pair of 26" Frequency i23, bought at CRC about 2 weeks ago. Both are 482 g.


WT69 or 7000 alloy on stickers?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

7000 series..


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

The last I heard from WTB was them telling me that they anticipate the new rims to arrive Fall 2013.



PissedOffCil said:


> It's the caption in the article that's not good... I thought the version without I-Beam was for their CX rim but it does look on the wide side...
> 
> We'll have to see for the effect of the I-Beam on stiffness but it was the reason I was considering it over the Pacenti TL28. Hopefully we can get our hands on them soon and get some feedback and reviews. Does anybody have an ETA?


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## PissedOffCil (Oct 18, 2007)

Ok that's too late for me. Thx



4slomo said:


> The last I heard from WTB was them telling me that they anticipate the new rims to arrive Fall 2013.


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

Drat! If that KOM were out I'd be ordering today and have kid rolling on it by next weekend.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

4slomo said:


> The cross section I saw of the KOM i23 shows it doesn't have the central "I" beam construction, so it will be lighter, but likely not as strong.
> 
> View attachment 783316


The pic does say that's an I23, but that seems like a weak design for such a wide rim. Maybe for an i19 XC rim.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Metamorphic said:


> Drat! If that KOM were out I'd be ordering today and have kid rolling on it by next weekend.


I just started having my I23 wheels built up. There's always something better coming out next yr it seems. My set up will be lighter and wider than my current 819 set up.


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## wheatgerm (Jan 30, 2006)

This is the caption below the picture on BikeRadar:

"WTB lightens up for MY2014 with the new KOM TCS i23 tubeless-compatible mountain bike rims in 26", 27.5", and 29" diameters. Claimed weights range from just 385-426g with 23mm internal widths across the board."


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

wheatgerm said:


> Nice find Shalom! I see WTB rims in my future!


Arrrgh I was hoping for something wider and stronger than the I23. I'll be happy to try a build onto I25's this coming winter. I 23's have a thin sidewall to the bead, at least for me. Otherwise I love them.
Cheers!


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

fermenter said:


> Arrrgh I was hoping for something wider and stronger than the I23. I'll be happy to try a build onto I25's this coming winter. I 23's have a thin sidewall to the bead, at least for me. Otherwise I love them.
> Cheers!


Maybe look to some of the Pacenti rims? TL28 and DL31 are both wider than the I23s.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Sorry, but you have given some misinformation here...

Pacenti rims model numbers give outside width, the TL28 has an inside width of 23mm, same as the i23. In addition, the TL28 is designed to be a wide XC rim, which definitely is not stronger than the i23 AM rim.

The DL31 has an inside width of 26mm. Predictably, it is a DH rim with an outside width of 31mm. Not sure if fermenter is really looking for a DH rim.



GTscoob said:


> Maybe look to some of the Pacenti rims? TL28 and DL31 are both wider than the I23s.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

fermenter said:


> Arrrgh I was hoping for something wider and stronger than the I23. I'll be happy to try a build onto I25's this coming winter. I 23's have a thin sidewall to the bead, at least for me. Otherwise I love them.
> Cheers!


Here's a link to a weird presentation I found giving some info by searching for I25.

Presentation by Kevin Lai on Prezi

I have no clue if it's by anyone important or not.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Just a minor reminder that the Pacenti rims do not have the little inner lip that prevents the bead from falling into the center channel.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

The presentation seems to show the new XC ST i19 rims won't have the I-beam, and the AM Frequency i23 and i25 rims will have the I-beam. No mention of the KOM rims in this presentation.



ziscwg said:


> Here's a link to a weird presentation I found giving some info by searching for I25.
> 
> Presentation by Kevin Lai on Prezi
> 
> I have no clue if it's by anyone important or not.


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## monkeyninja (May 11, 2010)

Hi I have asked this before and got 2 different answers but will I be able to mount a 2.25 exo ardent tire to the i23 rim, it is not a specific tubeless ready tire. If not what tires work well with these rims for am riding. I live in Scotland so it's wet a lot not really dry dusty trails. I normally use high roller/ adrent combo all year so something like that would be good.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

monkeyninja said:


> Hi I have asked this before and got 2 different answers but will I be able to mount a 2.25 exo ardent tire to the i23 rim, it is not a specific tubeless ready tire.


It will readily mount and is rated to work as intended with a tube. For tubeless, the LUST/UST version of this tire is rated to work correctly with the i23 since it is a UST spec rim.

If you want to use the EXO version tubeless, then who knows. It'll likely air up OK but you will have a higher likelihood of tire burps or rolling the tire off the rim.

Assuming you want tubeless, I'd look at any tire that is rated "Tubeless Ready" or UST. For example:
- UST/LUST versions of the Ardent
- TR (aka tubeless ready) versions of the Highroller II
- Schwalbe Nobby nic or Hans Dempf "TL Ready" with Snakeskin 
- Specialized "2Bliss" tires w/Control (Purgatory, Butcher)


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## eugenemtbing (Nov 16, 2010)

And other tubeless tire nomenclature (I have used these on i23s with Stan's liquid with success):

Bontrager's TLR 
WTB's TCS (tubeless compatible system)
Geax's TNT (tube/no-tube)


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## Shalom (Nov 7, 2008)

What carnut said. I have had excellent results with Specialized 2bliss tyres on my i23s.


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## monkeyninja (May 11, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestions will look at specialzed


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

I just mounted a tire on my Frequency i23 for the first time.

WTB rim tape and valve. Bonty TLR tire (previously used). No sealant. Dry (no soapy water).

Mounted on rim easily.
Inflated with a floor pump with normal effort (not super fast or hard).
Immediately captured air and the bead seated at 10-15psi. Have air leaking around the valve. Not sure if it is the valve or my tape job.
Update: a bit of sealant and the valve stopped leaking. Not fond of these rubber cone base valves.


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## gumby. (Mar 11, 2013)

It looks like they've dropped the inner bead retainer on the i25


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## Mac_Aravan (Nov 22, 2012)

I have just received a pair of i23 26" 2013 from CRC, both WT69 alloy.
Bad news: they are around 490g each!
So the alloy change doesn't mean they are lighter. I guess it's the extrusion process variation that play here.
I found out also that the holes are very unclean inside. Not very good for the nipple seating if not cleaned before lacing.


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## djr8505 (Apr 23, 2008)

gumby. said:


> It looks like they've dropped the inner bead retainer on the i25


I think it is still there. Just hard to see from the lighting in the pic.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

djr8505 said:


> I think it is still there. Just hard to see from the lighting in the pic.


...and there is likely a big bur from slicing.


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## suspman (Dec 2, 2005)

Shiggy, for the rubber cone valve I just cut a piece of inner tube into a little square and cut a slit in it then slid it over the valve stem and then trimmed it to a circle around the cone. I then tightened the valve tighter into the rim and it won't pull through and seals better by filling in any voids.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

shiggy said:


> I just mounted a tire on my Frequency i23 for the first time.
> 
> WTB rim tape and valve. Bonty TLR tire (previously used). No sealant. Dry (no soapy water).
> 
> ...


I just put a Hans Damph on mine with 28mm tape and Stans stem. The tire went on a little too easy. I'm used to Mavic UST rims. However, it aired up with my floor pump and locked in at 20 psi.

I rode the set up 2 hrs later and it was solid all day. I was a little concerned with how easy the tire went on and it might burp on the trail. I had no burping, farting, or puking from my newly mounted tire. :thumbsup:


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

The Damph is a pretty awesome tire. I'm running them front and rear on i23s at about 25 pounds and they have been rock solid. I continue to be impressed with the performance and longevity of this tire.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

So, I guess I should answer the OP question for way back.

Is the I23 an alterative for the Flow rim???

I give it a resounding yes. I'd even say it's an upgrade as it has a real locking UST type bead and can take high spoke tensions.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

And it has the extra vertical wall for more strength. And weighs about the same. And the directional drilling feels so great to build with. And they are much cheaper, at the expense of quality however (but ZTR are hard to even approach in quality).


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

ziscwg said:


> So, I guess I should answer the OP question for way back.
> 
> Is the I23 an alterative for the Flow rim???
> 
> I give it a resounding yes. I'd even say it's an upgrade as it has a real locking UST type bead and can take high spoke tensions.


The i23 is a valid option for tubeless rims.

The other brand mentioned is not an option for me, with or without tubes, because of the non-standard design.


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## monkeyninja (May 11, 2010)

Does anyone know when the i25 is gonna be released? Is this rim equal to a flow ex as the i23 is like a flow? I'm looking to build up some new tubeless wheels for my banshee spitfire v2, I am new to tubeless so fancy giving it a try, I use this bike for everything expect full on dh I have a big bike for that, so the wheels need to stand up to a fair bit of abuse, I weigh 80kg and regularly hit jumps and drops. 

So i23 or i25?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Until I hear differently, I don't expect to see the new rims before Fall 2013. My understanding is that the rims are not intended for significant jumping, more for riding with your tires on the ground.



4slomo said:


> The last I heard from WTB was them telling me that they anticipate the new rims to arrive Fall 2013.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

4slomo said:


> ...My understanding is that the rims are not intended for significant jumping, more for riding with your tires on the ground.


WTB has "gravity" as one of the intended uses.
http://www.wtb.com/products/frequency-team

Longevity while jumping is more about the rider than the rim.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

I've heard back from WTB, here's the latest info:

WTB expects to get the Frequency i25 rim in stock in October/November.

The new website is/was ahead of itself regarding the i25. Rim intended usage information on the new website is/was a little vague: the i19 is intended for XC, the i23 for AM/enduro, and the i25 for gravity (DH riding/racing, FR, aggressive enduro). The i23 is being used by some as a lighter weight race style DH rim.



shiggy said:


> WTB has "gravity" as one of the intended uses.
> Frequency Team | Wilderness Trail Bikes
> 
> Longevity while jumping is more about the rider than the rim.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

Thanks 4slomo! I'm looking forward to the ST TCS I23 and I25.


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## monkeyninja (May 11, 2010)

So I have just ordered some i23 rims and am thinking of running them with specialized butcher/purgotory control tires. This is my 1st experience with tubeless, I have ordered some 25 mm stans tape and valves. I have watched the stans video... is it just a case of applying 1 layer of tape with a small overlap and then seating the tires using soapy water and then once they are properly seated I add the sealant as per the video


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## Shalom (Nov 7, 2008)

Pretty much what I did. 
- One layer of slightly overlapping 25 mm stans tape. 
- Added valve and removed core. 
- Installed tyre (mine are purg/captain). 
- Inflated to seat the bead. 
- Added stans via the syringe injector. 
- Reinstalled valve core. 
- Reinflated. 
- Let is sit for 24 hours with occassional swirling to move the stans around and get a proper seal, but it wasn't really needed.
Good to go!


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

Pretty much that's it. 

You'll want to pull the yellow tape very tight and keep it straight in the channel as you pull it around. Its very tough tape, so you're basically pulling as hard as you can. A couple of people who's opinion I trust recommend putting down 2 full layers. But I got that advice after I've set up several sets and I was find with 1 pass and overlap. 

I have had decent luck with Purgatory and Escar2 tires on the i23. Better luck with Hans Damphs and Nobby Nicks.


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## monkeyninja (May 11, 2010)

Thanks for that.. do you like that tire combo? What kind of trails/riding do you do? Is it dry or wet where you ride?


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## Shalom (Nov 7, 2008)

Yeah, I think road tubeless needs two layers. AFAIK, mtb is fine with one. But at the end of the day, both will work.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

Recently bought a pair of 26" i23 rims from my LBS, they were the older 7000 series alloy ones and both came in at 477g on my scale. Tensioned up nicely and built up pretty true, better than everything else I've used so far except Mavics, their rims are just ridiculously dead straight. I have to say that the 4D spoke drilling is pretty slick, it's like having a spoke hole eyelet without having a spoke hole eyelet, the nipples turn without binding even under high tension.

This is my 2nd set of WTB rims, I had a set of Speedmasters back in 2000 which I was really happy with and so far the i23 is upholding that standard of quality. I've only had 5 rides on them so far but I've beat on them pretty good, I've jumped them, aired them off drops, gone through rock gardens fast & slow, put the bike sideways at warp speed, slammed through ruts, and otherwise gone out of my way to abuse them. They're still nice & true, though I did manage to chip the paint in a few spots. I think I'm going to be very happy with these rims in the long run.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

tagged


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## trojan08 (Sep 15, 2011)

So, my LBS is building up a set of 26" i23s on DT 350s using DT Comp spokes and alloy nipples. Normally not the weight weenie type, but in my mind I've been targeting a set weight (before tape and valves) in the 1750-1800g range. Reading through this thread I saw the gen1 (7000-series) and gen2 (WT69) revelation and wondered which rims I'd get. (Bought through a friend via Hawley USA.) Turns out both my rims were WT69 alloy and I thought I was money. Weighed rim #1 - 449g. Nice. Weighed rim #2 - 488g!!! I've heard of gen1 i23 owners with rims that weight, but these gen2 (WT69) rims are supposed to be sub 450g (like my rim#1). My question is, is this normal standard deviation (449 vs. 488 compared to an advertised 457g)? Or do you think WTB put a new sticker on an old rim? I'm too impatient to send back to WTB, but it kinda pisses me off. Any other gen2 owners have rim weights that high? Was my 1750g target weight too low to begin with? Maybe I'm just being a baby.

Separately, anyone running DT Comps or Super Comps on their i23s? My wheelbuilder talked me out of DB14s and SuperComps...wondering what others are running on their i23 builds???


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## Shalom (Nov 7, 2008)

Not going to comment on rim weight, as I personally couldn't care less.

However, as for spokes, I built up mine (29er single speed) with DB14s and brass nipples. They have been going strong, taking all the abuse my lack of riding ability can throw at them, with no trouble what-so-ever.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

trojan08 said:


> Separately, anyone running DT Comps or Super Comps on their i23s? My wheelbuilder talked me out of DB14s and SuperComps...wondering what others are running on their i23 builds???


I'm running DT comps on the rear, front wheel is DT comps on the disc side and DT revolutions on the non-disc side. I usually build my wheels with DT comps on the dished side and Revolutions on the lower tensioned side to even out the stresses on the spokes, but I couldn't source enough Revolutions on short notice to do it this time.

As for rim weight, that's production tolerances at work, unfortunately. My guess is they're a bit lazy with changing the extrusion dies as they wear out, as the dies wear the extrusion gets a little thicker and the rim gets heavier. I'd say don't sweat it and just build the heavier rim into the back wheel.


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## Mac_Aravan (Nov 22, 2012)

My i23 (WT69) are both in the 480/490g ballpark, so I won't change it if I where you.

I have received all the pieces for my set: novatec hubs, Sapim D-light (want to use supercomp but not enough stock) and alloy nipple. Total set will be around 1850-1870g total with strip and valve. I guess with lighter hubs you can be a little bit under 1800g.


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## allthatisman (May 27, 2007)

I bought a set of WTB i23 (29er) with X9 hubs and got them on Saturday. I spent part of Saturday and yesterday struggling to even get them to inflate. The tires I tried using were Conti Race King 2.2's and Panaracer Driver Pro 2.2's... neither tire would inflate, even with a compressor and with the cores removed. Yesterday I added a second layer of Stan's tape to the rear in the hope that it would make the bead a bit tighter... no luck. I put a tube in and when I did, the beads on the Driver Pro snapped right into the grooves on the i23. Removing the tube was a royal pain, but I did get it out, and with one side seated, I still couldn't get the tire to inflate without using a tube. 

Given my late research, it seems that since these wheels are UST spec, that only UST tires or tubeless ready tires will work... is this correct? I didn't really buy the wheelset for the tubeless part, I needed another wheelset for commuting (my old wheelset now has that duty), but I'd really like to use these wheels to their full potential... Am I correct that I really can only use a UST, 2Bliss, TCS, or TLR tire on this rim?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I wouldn't even try installing a tube type tyre with those without a tube..


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## allthatisman (May 27, 2007)

J. Random Psycho said:


> I wouldn't even try installing a tube type tyre with those without a tube..


I kind of had a feeling that these tires wouldn't set up easily or at all. I can mount the tires (using a tube) with just my hands with little to no effort. Given how loose they are on the rim, there really is no way for them to air up.

Do UST rims fit tighter on the rim itself? Since the bead is supposedly stronger? Is there a preferred tire so far that works well on this rim? I'm kind of torn because I really like the Driver Pro's... I'd love to run those tubeless, and I'd *really* like to not spend any more $$...


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

allthatisman said:


> I bought a set of WTB i23 (29er) with X9 hubs and got them on Saturday. I spent part of Saturday and yesterday struggling to even get them to inflate. The tires I tried using were Conti Race King 2.2's and Panaracer Driver Pro 2.2's... neither tire would inflate, even with a compressor and with the cores removed. Yesterday I added a second layer of Stan's tape to the rear in the hope that it would make the bead a bit tighter... no luck. I put a tube in and when I did, the beads on the Driver Pro snapped right into the grooves on the i23. Removing the tube was a royal pain, but I did get it out, and with one side seated, I still couldn't get the tire to inflate without using a tube.
> 
> Given my late research, it seems that since these wheels are UST spec, that only UST tires or tubeless ready tires will work... is this correct? I didn't really buy the wheelset for the tubeless part, I needed another wheelset for commuting (my old wheelset now has that duty), but I'd really like to use these wheels to their full potential... Am I correct that I really can only use a UST, 2Bliss, TCS, or TLR tire on this rim?


Yes, the Frequency is designed for tubeless use only with UST spec tubeless tires (and any tire with inner tubes).

No matter what the rim manufacturers of non-UST "tubeless" rims tell you, using any standard tire on any rim without inner tubes is a crap shoot. They tend to hide this fact in their disclaimers. http://www.notubes.com/Warranty.aspx


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## allthatisman (May 27, 2007)

shiggy said:


> Yes, the Frequency is designed for tubeless use only with UST spec tubeless tires (and any tire with inner tubes).
> 
> No matter what the rim manufacturers of non-UST "tubeless" rims tell you, using any standard tire on any rim without inner tubes is a crap shoot. They tend to hide this fact in their disclaimers. Warranty


Sigh, that's what I figured. So among those 4 "tubeless" tire varieties, namely the Specsh 2-Bliss, would I be good with a set of 2-Bliss Captain Controls?


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

allthatisman said:


> Sigh, that's what I figured. So among those 4 "tubeless" tire varieties, namely the Specsh 2-Bliss, would I be good with a set of 2-Bliss Captain Controls?


I have no experience with the current 2Bliss tires. I know the WTB TCS, Bonty TLR, Geax TnT, and Hutchinson tubeless ready models work well, and Schwalbe TR do OK.


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## ianick (Jul 10, 2006)

I have no issues running Specialized 2 Bliss tires with my Frequency's so far. Setup easily and hold air without problem.


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## allthatisman (May 27, 2007)

ianick said:


> I have no issues running Specialized 2 Bliss tires with my Frequency's so far. Setup easily and hold air without problem.


29er? Which tires and what pressure do you run them at. According to Specialized specs, their tires have a min pressure rating of 35 psi... at that pressure, there's no reason for me to even consider tubeless, since if I run my tubed tires at 40, I never get flats.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

Check here for Speshy's recommended tire pressure: http://www.specialized.com/media/whatsnew/IG0290_revA.pdf

I just mounted a set of 2.3 Purgatories on i23 x29's. They mounted easy peazy with just a floor pump (valve core removed, soap suds on the beads). I run them at typical tubeless pressures, meaning high 20's for a 200lb hack riding 2.2" tires.

And yes, I said 2.2" tires. Contrary to prior Spec' tires, these measure 2.20" at the knife edge of the side knob and 2.17" at the casing. That's at 30psi after letting them stretch for 2 weeks.

Other than the size issue, I've been very happy with them for all purpose trail riding.


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## allthatisman (May 27, 2007)

car_nut said:


> Check here for Speshy's recommended tire pressure: http://www.specialized.com/media/whatsnew/IG0290_revA.pdf
> 
> I just mounted a set of 2.3 Purgatories on i23 x29's. They mounted easy peazy with just a floor pump (valve core removed, soap suds on the beads). I run them at typical tubeless pressures, meaning high 20's for a 200lb hack riding 2.2" tires.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! Yeah my buddy bought a Control GC 26" 2.3 and a Purgatory 26" S-Works 2.4 and the GC was by far wider... He returned it and got another GC... seems to be happy with it. I used to have the Fast Trak LK on my old Stumpjumper 29, but I think I might want something more beef castle!


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

allthatisman said:


> I kind of had a feeling that these tires wouldn't set up easily or at all. I can mount the tires (using a tube) with just my hands with little to no effort. Given how loose they are on the rim, there really is no way for them to air up.
> 
> Do UST rims fit tighter on the rim itself? Since the bead is supposedly stronger? Is there a preferred tire so far that works well on this rim? I'm kind of torn because I really like the Driver Pro's... I'd love to run those tubeless, and I'd *really* like to not spend any more $$...


buy some proper ust spec tires, you'll be glad you did. you say your eally love the tires you have now but you will probably love a wider range of tires once your able to realize the benefits of tubeless


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## allthatisman (May 27, 2007)

So I think I've narrowed down a tire (based on my riding style, etc.) and I just wanted to confirm that these Maxxis Ikons will do the trick:

Maxxis Ikon 29er Tire

3C, Maxxspeed EXO, TR. They seem like fast, lightweight, tubeless ready tires that should wear better than RR's, and possibly seat better. I'm ready to pull the trigger on these, otherwise I was going to maybe go with Specialized Ground Control 29 2.3's. A bit different style of tire... not as fast, but a bit beefier. I'd prefer a speedier tire.

Thoughts?


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Well, some tire-rim combos are just a beetch to set up tubeless even if they are both UST. I remember having to fight with a pair of Continental Mountain King 2.2" UST and Mavic XM819 Disc back in 2008. Did the soap trick,* the belt trick*, had high volume track pump, but sweated profusely while working the pump nevertheless. XC Schwalbes and Maxxises of the time set up quickly on the same rims.


What's the belt trick???

My worst case of tire seating had me blasting it with a compressor with the valve core out.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

ziscwg said:


> What's the belt trick???
> 
> My worst case of tire seating had me blasting it with a compressor with the valve core out.


Totally unnecessary when you are using proper tubeless tires and rims.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

shiggy said:


> I have no experience with the current 2Bliss tires. I know the WTB TCS, Bonty TLR, Geax TnT, and Hutchinson tubeless ready models work well, and Schwalbe TR do OK.


I put a Spec Captain Control 2bliss 2.2 on the I23 with no issues. I also did an older FastTrak 2.2.

As for Schwalbe, the Hans Damph went on no problem. However, the Nobby Nic 2.25 TR 4-Cross edition was a pain in the perverbial back side.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

shiggy said:


> Totally unnecessary when you are using proper tubeless tires and rims.


Got it

I tried to put a std tire on tubeless once. I was not worth the effort to me since there are so many good choices out there.

So, I will likely never need to use a belt


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

allthatisman said:


> So I think I've narrowed down a tire (based on my riding style, etc.) and I just wanted to confirm that these Maxxis Ikons will do the trick:
> 
> 3C, Maxxspeed EXO, TR. They seem like fast, lightweight, tubeless ready tires that should wear better than RR's, and possibly seat better. I'm ready to pull the trigger on these, otherwise I was going to maybe go with Specialized Ground Control 29 2.3's. A bit different style of tire... not as fast, but a bit beefier. I'd prefer a speedier tire.
> 
> Thoughts?


The TR Ikons were just released. I doubt you'll get much feedback from actual users. With that said, I've run a set of non-TR Exo 2.2's on WTB Laser TCS rims (aka UST) and a set of flows. It's a great XC tire that rolls very well and has a surprising amount of grip. It burped on me when mounted to the WTB's but that's to be expected with a non-tubeless tire mounted tubeless to a UST rim.


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## allthatisman (May 27, 2007)

car_nut said:


> The TR Ikons were just released. I doubt you'll get much feedback from actual users. With that said, I've run a set of non-TR Exo 2.2's on WTB Laser TCS rims (aka UST) and a set of flows. It's a great XC tire that rolls very well and has a surprising amount of grip. It burped on me when mounted to the WTB's but that's to be expected with a non-tubeless tire mounted tubeless to a UST rim.


Thanks for the advice. Maybe I'll cruise over to my local shop and see if they have some 2.3 GC's.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

shiggy said:


> I have no experience with the current 2Bliss tires. I know the WTB TCS, Bonty TLR, Geax TnT, and Hutchinson tubeless ready models work well, and Schwalbe TR do OK.





ianick said:


> I have no issues running Specialized 2 Bliss tires with my Frequency's so far. Setup easily and hold air without problem.





car_nut said:


> Check here for Speshy's recommended tire pressure: http://www.specialized.com/media/whatsnew/IG0290_revA.pdf
> 
> I just mounted a set of 2.3 Purgatories on i23 x29's. They mounted easy peazy with just a floor pump (valve core removed, soap suds on the beads). I run them at typical tubeless pressures, meaning high 20's for a 200lb hack riding 2.2" tires.
> 
> ...





ziscwg said:


> I put a Spec Captain Control 2bliss 2.2 on the I23 with no issues. I also did an older FastTrak 2.2.


Just to chime in here, while I am not running I23 rims, I have used two sets of Specialized 2Bliss tires on Fulcrum wheels (both true UST rims). In both cases the tires were easily mounted by hand and beads seated with a nice snap at about 30 psi. In the case of the first set (Purgatory front and Captian rear) it took a few rides before they held air well. The second set (Ground Control 2.3s) have held air perfectly from day one.

Specialized tires do seem to be shrinking a bit. Where they used to be true to their label, or even oversized, the Ground Control 2.3s come up with a 55mm casing measurement mounted on a 19mm internal rim at 30 psi (measured a week after mounting and inflating). This is 2.16" slightly under their claimed 2.3" or 58.4mm to the rest of the world.


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## ianick (Jul 10, 2006)

allthatisman said:


> 29er? Which tires and what pressure do you run them at. According to Specialized specs, their tires have a min pressure rating of 35 psi... at that pressure, there's no reason for me to even consider tubeless, since if I run my tubed tires at 40, I never get flats.


Currently running a Specialized Ground Control Control 2.3 on the rear of my Spearfish. I run 22-28 lbs depending on conditions.

It's a big tire. Almost exactly the same size as the Ardent 2.4 on the front. I'm very happy with it. I plan to test it as the front tire next.


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## boardreader (May 11, 2012)

Hope my post is not too off-topic.

Started building front wheel for my trail/AM hardtail.
Few guys who know how to build wheels posted in this thread. Hope for some help from them

Already bought TCS i23, Shimano XT HB-M775 hub & Wheelsmith 12mm brass nipples.

Considering to lace with Wheelsmith DB14 spokes using 3cross pattern.
Need some help with spoke length determination.

Hub specs (official and then measured to be sure):
holes: 32
flange diameter, left: 44mm
flange diameter, right: 41mm
center to flange, left: 24.8mm
center to flange, right: 35.8mm
overlock nut dimension: 100mm

Rim specs:
WTB speced ERD: 538mm
my measurements: 537mm (measured according WHEELPRO site method using nipples that would be used)

well, different calculators give different results
www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc
left: 260.7mm
right: 262.3mm

spokes-calculator.dtswiss.com/Calculator.aspx
left: 261.1
right: 262.8

www.prowheelbuilder.com/spokelengthcalculator
left: 262.1
right: 263.8

SO, what's the ACTUAL length spokes should I use?

Any reason going for more expensive DT Swiss spokes?
Also, best place to buy individual spokes and not the whole box?

think that's too much questions for the single post


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

I always use the wheelpro spoke calc and roger mussons wheelbuiding PDF book and it hasn't let me down when building. I've only built with DT swiss spokes but know plenty of people who have used wheelsmith and sapim spokes. Sapim can be had for cheap from bikehubstore.com. probably about .80 per spoke if I remember correctly

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

boardreader,
my calculator says 260 and 262 mm. It uses the formula given by Roger Musson in his book, and takes data from my own set of measurements (537 mm for that rim indeed).


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## boardreader (May 11, 2012)

thanx.
just ordered 260 an 262mm wheelsmith DB14


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## Pedal/Paddle (Nov 3, 2005)

Just mounted these today. First ever experience with tubeless. Wolverine 2.2 29 TCS. Rims laced to Hope Pro II Evo. Laughably easy, with a floor pump, Slime Pro sealant. Unfortunately I wont be able to ride them for a while, frame issue. So glad I went with these over Stans. Amazing how well things work when they are designed to a set standard.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

I'm a newb to MTB but the impression I get is that Stans was excellent for people that hadultiple sets of non UST tires already. For people new to the game a UST rim and UST tire is simply tubeless for dummies. I wish that road tubeless would gain traction just for the added flat protection. I'm a 250lber. I'd love to have some 28 or 32c tires I could run at lower pressures on the road for more comfort and get the flat protection benefits

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Another pair of 26" i23 weighed. Purchased at CRC a month ago. Labeled WT69 alloy. Weights are 486 and 487 g.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Another pair of 26" i23 weighed. Purchased at CRC a month ago. Labeled WT69 alloy. Weights are 486 and 487 g.


That's about what mine weighed. They were the wt69 alloy.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

2 month update. Cased a few jumps, overshot a bunch of landings, crashed a few times, went sideways a lot too, highsided my bike bigtime and ended up 20' from the bike, and generally ridden like a maniac on the edge of control on nearly every ride. For whatever reason, the i23 rims combined with Conti's Trail King tires have flipped the switch and turned me from a generally cautious rider into a disturbingly reckless lunatic. It's a very confidence inspiring combo, maybe a little too confidence inspiring since I'm riding like a 20 year old again.

Despite all that abuse the wheels are still perfectly true and I haven't needed to tighten them up or do anything to them since the day they were built. I've checked them a couple times after my worst crashes and they were still dead straight. I'm quite impressed so far, with what I've put the wheels through to date I'm probably not going to break them without ending up in the hospital myself.


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## eugenemtbing (Nov 16, 2010)

Ditto for me -- lots of crazy riding for a year now on two wheelsets with i23 rims (wheels built by Steve -- 4Slomo -- at SRLPE) and the wheels/rims are true as arrows. No maintenance, truing, tweaking, nothing. Running mostly tubeless tires, geared and SS, on several different frames. Incredible.


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## worrptangl (Jun 23, 2009)

I can't wait for Steve to email that my wheels are done!


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## eugenemtbing (Nov 16, 2010)

Steve, what about lacing an IGH to an i23 rim? Thinking of a wheel that I could run on my steel 29er Inbred with horizontal dropouts and also on my Pompetamine road/tourer with horizontal dropouts. Could run MTB tires and cross tires.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

ziscwg said:


> That's about what mine weighed. They were the wt69 alloy.


Here's my Lefty wheel built up with DT swiss supercomps, 1.8 alloy nips, Project 321 hub and 26 I23 rim. No rim tape or valve. I also got rid of most of the obsurd labels on the rim.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

aerius said:


> 2 month update. Cased a few jumps, overshot a bunch of landings, crashed a few times, went sideways a lot too, highsided my bike bigtime and ended up 20' from the bike, and generally ridden like a maniac on the edge of control on nearly every ride. * For whatever reason, the i23 rims combined with Conti's Trail King tires have flipped the switch and turned me from a generally cautious rider into a disturbingly reckless lunatic. It's a very confidence inspiring combo, maybe a little too confidence inspiring since I'm riding like a 20 year old again.*
> 
> .


I hate that I can go faster too. 

I got a little too confident and actually hit a turn way faster than normal thinking I could manage it. I even had the unexpected drift handled fine.......... Then, that stupid effen tree jumped out in front of me. I just clipped it and knocked the rim just enough out that my wheel builder said "I might get it straight, but it's pretty messed up. It may not last"

So, that rim lasted two months. I'm in process of filing a claim in small claims court against the Jumping Tree Society for the rebuild costs. It's obvious from their website they promote this type of bad tree behavior.


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## boardreader (May 11, 2012)

anybody knows rim tape widths for these rims?
will be running with tubes for now.


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## Shalom (Nov 7, 2008)

25mm wide tape, such as Stans, is recommended.


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## boardreader (May 11, 2012)

got it. thanx


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## 0xDEADBEEF (Oct 2, 2011)

Hi!
can anyone tell me what is the difference between Frequency i23 and i23 ST rims?

Thanks.


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## bigkat273 (Jan 16, 2008)

0xDEADBEEF said:


> Hi!
> can anyone tell me what is the difference between Frequency i23 and i23 ST rims?
> 
> Thanks.


Not 4d drilled and not I beam.

http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/anyone-know-if-there-difference-i23-rims-837094.html


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## worrptangl (Jun 23, 2009)

Steve just emailed me letting me know my wheels are done! Super stoked!!!


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## Cormac (Aug 6, 2011)

I just ordered a pair of i23 rims couple days ago. Still waiting on the cash for my phil wood kiss off hubs. Found a local guy who's addicted to wheel building, does it for a living too. So I'm gonna have him lace em up for me. I hope these rims are as good as everyone seems to say. They do look to be a nice alternative to stans! And from what I can tell, probably a better product?

So 23mm tape and presta valves. Can these be used without sealant? I'm currently running hans dampf tires and will be using them on my new wheels as well.


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## worrptangl (Jun 23, 2009)

25mm tape and sealant is needed.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Cormac said:


> I just ordered a pair of i23 rims couple days ago. Still waiting on the cash for my phil wood kiss off hubs. Found a local guy who's addicted to wheel building, does it for a living too. So I'm gonna have him lace em up for me. I hope these rims are as good as everyone seems to say. They do look to be a nice alternative to stans! And from what I can tell, probably a better product?
> 
> So 23mm tape and presta valves. Can these be used without sealant? I'm currently running hans dampf tires and will be using them on my new wheels as well.


Once taped and with valves installed, you need sealant only if the tires require it.

WTB recommends the 28mm tape for the i23.


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## worrptangl (Jun 23, 2009)

I just got my wheelset in from Steve last night. I got everything switched over and mounted up. They are so light and smooth. A hundred fold better than stock!


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Cormac said:


> I just ordered a pair of i23 rims couple days ago. Still waiting on the cash for my phil wood kiss off hubs. Found a local guy who's addicted to wheel building, does it for a living too. So I'm gonna have him lace em up for me. I hope these rims are as good as everyone seems to say. They do look to be a nice alternative to stans! And from what I can tell, probably a better product?
> 
> So 23mm tape and presta valves. Can these be used without sealant? I'm currently running hans dampf tires and will be using them on my new wheels as well.





worrptangl said:


> 25mm tape and sealant is needed.


WTB says 28 mm tape. 28 mm is what I used and had no problems getting my Hans Damphs to pop in.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Recently I used Schwalbe 25 mm wide rim tape (the light-blue-colored plastic one, removable). It seemed to have filled the rim from wall to wall without possibility of displacement.


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## eugenemtbing (Nov 16, 2010)

I can't say enough good things about the wheels Steve at SRLPE has built for me. I am now talking with him about building a multipurpose rear MTB/gravel grinding wheel with an Alfine 8 hub and an i23 rim.


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## cazman72 (Mar 28, 2013)

So I haven't even put my i23s on my bike yet and I noticed this today!
What could have caused that to happen?


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

I'd guess an out of spec alloy. Too brittle.


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

shiggy, I used 25 mm tape. Its fine.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

cazman72, what are the spoke tensions?


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## KrisRayner (Apr 3, 2007)

Just got my i23 replaced under warranty. 7000 series alloy was cracking after little more than a year. Don't know if it was by accident or design, by they were replaced with the new i25's! Thanks to WTB for stepping up.


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## Mac_Aravan (Nov 22, 2012)

Glad to have WT69 alloy 
7000 alloys are very tough but prone to creaks due to fatigue, I guess that's why they replace it by WT69 (which is probably an 60xx alloy).

Finished my pair of wheels: novatec (rebranded) hubs, sapim Dlight triple butted spokes, alloy nipple:










No worries even in rock gardens. Some impact traces on the rims but they seems very strong and are right size for schwalbe HD. Easy to build also.


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## boardreader (May 11, 2012)

KrisRayner said:


> Just got my i23 replaced under warranty. 7000 series alloy was cracking after little more than a year. Don't know if it was by accident or design, by they were replaced with the new i25's! Thanks to WTB for stepping up.


wow, have not seen i25's for sale.
did they release it already?


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

KrisRayner said:


> Just got my i23 replaced under warranty. 7000 series alloy was cracking after little more than a year. Don't know if it was by accident or design, by they were replaced with the new i25's! Thanks to WTB for stepping up.


Oh that is way cool to get the I25 as a warranty.

Pics please!!!!!!!!!


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## bigkat273 (Jan 16, 2008)

End of the model year warranties often get next year's line if current is out of stock.


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## KrisRayner (Apr 3, 2007)

Here's the i25 with 2.4 Nobby Nic


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

...and some preparations for the zombie apocalypse in the background )


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## suspman (Dec 2, 2005)

Crap! That wheel can take out Zombies too. Manualling into them-I like it! Any specs on weight of the rim alone. How does it compare to the i23 for the build diameter whatever its called for spoke lengths. Oh and how does it ride?


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## KrisRayner (Apr 3, 2007)

Lol. That's a pallet load of jars for my wife's business. www.bombshellbrownieco.com

Back to the wheels. Getting in a ride tonight but I don't expect to feel a noticeable difference from 2mm. Bike shop rebuilt the wheels with the same spokes, new nipples-so identical length with the i23. I'm not a weight weenie nor did I get a chance to weigh them in comparison with my old rims. Just have to compare WTB specs. 499gm for the i25 and 459gm for the i23.

www.artscyclery.com has them.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

If that company was run out of my house I would weigh 400 lbs. and it would never turn a profit.


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## gumby. (Mar 11, 2013)

Did someone say zombie apocolypse, I can't wait to change the attack angle with some i25s...


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## suspman (Dec 2, 2005)

Anyone else notice the Chainsaw Power Take Off front wheel drive? That is ingenuity, cuz the last thing you want to do is stall out on the pedals when rippin through zombies!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Needs a lower handlebar IMHO, to load front end better. Otherwise the chainsaw motion will tend to lift the front off the ground and ride up zombie flesh instead of plowing into it.


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## BushPilot (Aug 29, 2007)

I just picked up a PIKE fork for my SJ FSR EVO and needed a 15mm hub, since the stock hilo crap was not convertible....I found a new X9 hub on pb for cheap and was going to put in on the stock used traverse rim, but the local wheel builder said it had issues. He's building me up an i25 with the x9 instead. The i25 looks about the same weight as the flow ex and maybe a bit tougher with the extra verticle support. Between the new wheel and fork expecting the front end to be way rigid now. When the rear goes I'll pick up a mate.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

X9 hub has contact seals I think, which is very rare in front cartridge bearing hubs.


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## BushPilot (Aug 29, 2007)

I'm not sure of the difference, but the hub seems well made and have seen some good reviews.


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## 0xDEADBEEF (Oct 2, 2011)

Hello!
Does anybody know i25 26'' ERD?
some sites list 535mm but i'm not sure, need confirmation.
Thanks.


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## Inuitbiker (Mar 18, 2011)

Nice wheel. What type of rim tape did you use?

I was hoping to use the last my of Stan Yellow 25mm wide tape for the I25 (leftover from previous i23 build) but don't know if that is wide enough.

Thanks in advance



Mac_Aravan said:


> Glad to have WT69 alloy
> 7000 alloys are very tough but prone to creaks due to fatigue, I guess that's why they replace it by WT69 (which is probably an 60xx alloy).
> 
> Finished my pair of wheels: novatec (rebranded) hubs, sapim Dlight triple butted spokes, alloy nipple:
> ...


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## gumby. (Mar 11, 2013)

WTB recommend 30mm tape for the i25.


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## Inuitbiker (Mar 18, 2011)

thanks


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## gumby. (Mar 11, 2013)

You're welcome, I just bought some here...

WTB TCS RIM Tape 30mm X 11M Roll | eBay


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## Inuitbiker (Mar 18, 2011)

awesome thanks again. I was looking at auction page when you entered the last reply. What a coincidence.


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## allthatisman (May 27, 2007)

I just thought I would give a mini review for my i23's with Specialized Fast Trak Control 2.2's. I used 21mm Stan's tape, Stan's valves, and Stan's sealant. I applied the tape, installed the valves, and mounted the tires. I did have to use a trick I saw in a video to get the bead to rest against the sidewall using a tire lever. Basically (in case you don't know this) you lift the bead with the tire lever and run it along the length of the tire. Once you get about 3/4 around it will start to get increasingly difficult. Do both sides. 

With that done, I used my regular old Joe Blow floor pump with no sealant and inflated the tire instantly. No leaks of any kind. Deflated the tire, pulled a small section out to dump in some Stan's, and re-inflated the tire. Spun it around and then went for a ride. 

Impressions: 

So after holding out and being super sceptical about the whole tubeless craze, I was very surprised at the speed, comfort, and weight savings. I went from Panaracer Driver Pro 29" 2.2's (for sale BTW) with tubes to the above referenced tires, and couldn't be more pleased. Even on the road I immediately noticed a difference. The following day I rode 25 miles without incident and I've never been happier with my bike. The Fast Traks at ~33psi were comfy, grippy, and rolled for days. I will gradually try lowering the pressure a couple PSI at a time... but I'm thinking about 28-29 psi will be just about right for me (about 190-195 geared up). Anyway, just thought I'd share. 

Also, bike in question is a 2013 Motobecane Fly Ti 29er


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## BushPilot (Aug 29, 2007)




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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

BushPilot said:


> View attachment 827645


Nice

I took all but the WTB and I23 part of the labels of my I23s. The label just seem so big, white and full of advertising.


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## BushPilot (Aug 29, 2007)

How was the sticker to get off? I thought about de-branding myself. I did that with some Bonty wheels and it was a PITA tho!


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

BushPilot said:


> How was the sticker to get off? I thought about de-branding myself. I did that with some Bonty wheels and it was a PITA tho!


It was not bad.
I had to make a shallow cut with a razor around where I wanted the label to stop. It's thin and did not take much as you don't want to cut into the Al if you don't have to.

I then pulled the label long ways. It left some adhesive. I just wrapped some clear packing tape sticky side out around my hand and pulled that off.

So, each wheel took me 10 min or so.


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## allthatisman (May 27, 2007)

ziscwg said:


> It was not bad.
> I had to make a shallow cut with a razor around where I wanted the label to stop. It's thin and did not take much as you don't want to cut into the Al if you don't have to.
> 
> I then pulled the label long ways. It left some adhesive. I just wrapped some clear packing tape sticky side out around my hand and pulled that off.
> ...


Man, I wish I could say the same thing... The adhesive was a mega PITA to get off on my wheels. I used all sorts of different chemicals after normal methods failed... Even goof off (my tried and true method) had a hard time with it... Just turned into a gluey nasty mess. I think I ended up using pure gasoline to get it off... Ymmv


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

I've measured one pair at 538mm ERD.



0xDEADBEEF said:


> Hello!
> Does anybody know i25 26'' ERD?
> some sites list 535mm but i'm not sure, need confirmation.
> Thanks.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

4slomo said:


> I've measured one pair at 538mm ERD.


Any comment on the recent thread about a seemingly high failure rate?


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## worrptangl (Jun 23, 2009)

For everything I have heard that's why WTB switched alloys. Maybe those people got some old stock. I don't know but mine are running great so far.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

worrptangl said:


> For everything I have heard that's why WTB switched alloys. Maybe those people got some old stock. I don't know but mine are running great so far.


I wish we could see the labels of the failed wheels. We could tell what alloy was used. WTB might even warranty them.


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## worrptangl (Jun 23, 2009)

I took my stickers off I wanted to cut them down but they still looked tacky against the raw steel frame with bLack and orange and I didn't want to cut too deep since they are super thin.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

worrptangl said:


> I took my stickers off I wanted to cut them down but they still looked tacky against *the raw steel frame *with bLack and orange and I didn't want to cut too deep since they are super thin.


wow, is it under clear powdercoat or there is some oil rubbed and baked onto it?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

I may have lost my inside contact at WTB. I'll have to try lighting a fire and see if I get a response.



meltingfeather said:


> Any comment on the recent thread about a seemingly high failure rate?


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## worrptangl (Jun 23, 2009)

J. Random Psycho said:


> wow, is it under clear powdercoat or there is some oil rubbed and baked onto it?


Matte clear powder coat and the Kona stickers are under the powder coat also.


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## worrptangl (Jun 23, 2009)

4slomo said:


> I may have lost my inside contact at WTB. I'll have to try lighting a fire and see if I get a response.


Another awesome day on the wheels Steve Thank you!


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## 0xDEADBEEF (Oct 2, 2011)

I've recently built 2 nice wheels for my pump/4x hardtail.
12mm black brass DT Swiss ProLock nipples
260mm Sapim CX-Ray spokes
26'' i23 rims (WT69 alloy)
Hope Pro 2 Evo hubs (20mm and 135xQR)

Front is 830g
Rear is 960g
Total 1790 (without tape and nipples, with original stickers)

Running tubes now because i love those tires and don't want to deal with non-TR tire on a TCS rim.
Custom stickers are Custom Rim Logo Stack - Slik Graphics
Good.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I want to see the whole bike... :thumbsup:


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## 0xDEADBEEF (Oct 2, 2011)

J. Random Psycho said:


> I want to see the whole bike... :thumbsup:


Here it is)
in Moscow, Russia - photo by OxD15EA5E - Pinkbike


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## k_z (Jul 23, 2012)

Few questions : 

- Is the 28 mm WTB tape correct width for i23 Frequency Team ?
- Is that tape required if I am going to run setup with the tube ? Or any rim tape will work (which I think are more like ~20mm wide) ?

- Is there any point in trying to run normal Maxxiss Ardents with valve/tapes/sealant as tubeless or I have to have a tubeless-ready tire ?
- Looking at UST or tubeless-ready tires they significantly heavier than normal ones (example - 645g for Ardent, UST-Ardent or Highroller II 2.3 TR are in 800g range) so tubeless setup will actually be heavier or am I missing something (I got the fact that it is flat "free"). ?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

k_z said:


> - Looking at UST or tubeless-ready tires they significantly heavier than normal ones (example - 645g for Ardent, UST-Ardent or Highroller II 2.3 TR are in 800g range) so tubeless setup will actually be heavier or am I missing something (I got the fact that it is flat "free"). ?


UST tires are very heavy due to the sidewall/casing which was designed to be air-tight and highly puncture & cut resistant. Some tubeless variants are heavy and robust, such as Maxxis LUST and Geax TNT, while others have the square UST bead on a very lightweight casing such as Specialized 'Control' and S-Works models.

I would use sealant with any tubeless tire and I prefer Slime Pro.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

k_z, for tube setup any rim tape wide enough will do.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

I heard back from WTB: When WTB was using the 7000 series alloy for the Frequency rims, most of the rims were great, but they got one bad batch of rims which they had to recall. This bad batch of 7000 series alloy is the only one where the rims have have had spoke nipples pull through. They selected the proprietary WT69 alloy as the replacement for the 7000 series alloy, WT69 has higher tensile strength. WTB has had no problems with rims using the WT69 alloy.



4slomo said:


> I may have lost my inside contact at WTB. I'll have to try lighting a fire and see if I get a response.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

k_z said:


> Few questions :
> 
> - Is the 28 mm WTB tape correct width for i23 Frequency Team ?
> *28 mm tape for runing tubeless.*
> ...


So, I answered your quesitons in line in bold


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## Jolly705 (Jun 13, 2013)

I just bought a pair of wheels with 23 rims, I am planning on purchasing specialized UST or 2bliss tires which ones seat better? I love the 2bliss captains I am running on my Bontragers. Thanks


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## worrptangl (Jun 23, 2009)

My purgatory mounted up with a floor pump just remember to remove the valve core.


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## tomasis (Oct 14, 2012)

Im considering Wtb KOM 26" I23 rims. 

Will it be too crazy if I use DT Super Comp front and Sapim CX ray in rear with 20/150mm hubs for dh/aggresive enduro. Im relatively light 70kg and switch wheelset between enduro and dh bikes. 

Schwalbe normal tires will be used. 

I dont mind to get some dents and replace each second year at best.


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## Jolly705 (Jun 13, 2013)

worrptangl said:


> My purgatory mounted up with a floor pump just remember to remove the valve core.


I am not sure what you mean by remove the valve core. The Bontragers TLR I have I installed a valve and hit it with the floor pump and was golden. Thanks


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## bigkat273 (Jan 16, 2008)

Jolly705 said:


> I am not sure what you mean by remove the valve core. The Bontragers TLR I have I installed a valve and hit it with the floor pump and was golden. Thanks


Removing the little dodad that you loosen on presta valves to inflate or deflate said tire. It increases the air volume you can push into the tire making the tire seat with a floor pump... Sometimes.


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## Jolly705 (Jun 13, 2013)

bigkat273 said:


> Removing the little dodad that you loosen on presta valves to inflate or deflate said tire. It increases the air volume you can push into the tire making the tire seat with a floor pump... Sometimes.


Copy, thank!


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## suspman (Dec 2, 2005)

So do you know what features the Bonty TLR tire has over the standard Team? I'm considering going I23 with 2.35 Bontrager XR4 Teams w Stans. Anyone make something like this work?


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## BushPilot (Aug 29, 2007)

I did the i25 with the bonty XR4 w/stans. They are outstanding tires. You will not regret it. I believe the team are the top tier tire and they are TLR. You could check the bonty website for full specs.


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## suspman (Dec 2, 2005)

Cool thanks. I love the tires I already have em but on I9 wheels with the original Flows. The rear is a little messed up but still rides great. I want to try the i25 for its width for a better footprint and stronger at the same weight. I know when I bought the Teams there were teams and Team TLR's and that the TLR's had a thicker sidewall. I guess I'll go for it. I did have the tire blow off a Flow rim when only using tape and not the stans rim strip. So, maybe I'll use strips if I have to but it seems like the WTB rims are better at inflation by pump so maybe that translates into not blowing off???


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

worrptangl said:


> My purgatory mounted up with a floor pump just remember to remove the valve core.


Hans Dampf mounted with a small pump, with core in place. Did hold air without sealant, before I added some new Caffelatex. Extra solid. Never back to non-UST/Stan's..


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## ranier (Sep 9, 2003)

Kinda up in the air on getting a new wheelset with I23/i25 rims. My concern is being able to use 650b Schwalbe tires - have a variety of RaRas, RoRos and NoNis. It seems that some here have been sucessful using tubeless ready Schwalbe tires on the UST spec'd WTB rims. Just need a little more confirmation from users here before I pull the trigger.


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

I've had extraordinarily good results with the i23s and the Schwalbe "TLR" tires (Hans Dampf and Nobby Nick). With those combos I could run low pressures without burping....so low that the side walls became uncomfortably wishy washy, the tire would fold over if you put too much side load on it, and the tire was no longer protecting the rim.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

ranier said:


> Kinda up in the air on getting a new wheelset with I23/i25 rims. My concern is being able to use 650b Schwalbe tires - have a variety of RaRas, RoRos and NoNis. It seems that some here have been sucessful using tubeless ready Schwalbe tires on the UST spec'd WTB rims. Just need a little more confirmation from users here before I pull the trigger.


Works great for me. Stupid easy inflation, mounts and dismounts with minimal fuss, sealed up well, holds up well. HD, and NN, and recent RaRa. Used standard Stan's strip, which maybe a tad narrow (I think it is 25mm), but so far so good.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

ranier said:


> Kinda up in the air on getting a new wheelset with I23/i25 rims. My concern is being able to use 650b Schwalbe tires - have a variety of RaRas, RoRos and NoNis. It seems that some here have been sucessful using tubeless ready Schwalbe tires on the UST spec'd WTB rims. Just need a little more confirmation from users here before I pull the trigger.


I've run the Schwalbe tire on the I23. Only the Hans Damph seated without a compressor first time. The others were fine with a compressor.

The only tires I struggled with of the tires I've used, (Conti Protection, Schwable SS, Spec 2Bliss) were the 2.2 Conti Prot. They needed to be shaped first with a tube. I just stuck them in an old rim with a tube for an hr and they were ready to go.


----------



## sancycling (Sep 6, 2012)

Other rims to throw into the equation are the "new" DT Swiss XM401 and EX471. They seem to be competition for Arch EX, i23 and Flow EX, i25 respectively.

One weird thing is that they will only be offered in 28H... Works great for me as I have some DT350 straight pull hubs that want to relace... But won't work for most that have 32H hubs.

DT Swiss - Components

Hope to read some reviews soon. I believe they are the same rims used for the spline 1 wheels. They have some good reviews.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Hmmm, interesting. "ERD inkl. PHR washer". PHR stands for Pro Head Reinforcement which looks like it's intended to combine WTB's directional drilling with stress distribution around spoke holes similar to that of eyeleted rims.


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## worrptangl (Jun 23, 2009)

ranier said:


> Kinda up in the air on getting a new wheelset with I23/i25 rims. My concern is being able to use 650b Schwalbe tires - have a variety of RaRas, RoRos and NoNis. It seems that some here have been sucessful using tubeless ready Schwalbe tires on the UST spec'd WTB rims. Just need a little more confirmation from users here before I pull the trigger.


I mounted a 2.35 NN on my speed disc and frequency i23 rims with a floor pump in a matter of a few pumps. Stupid easy and the bead set easy like others have said.


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## Jolly705 (Jun 13, 2013)

You are lucky, I can't get my i23's to seat at all with specialized 2bliss



worrptangl said:


> I mounted a 2.35 NN on my speed disc and frequency i23 rims with a floor pump in a matter of a few pumps. Stupid easy and the bead set easy like others have said.


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## worrptangl (Jun 23, 2009)

Jolly705 said:


> You are lucky, I can't get my i23's to seat at all with specialized 2bliss


I even have a purgatory control on the rear, mounted on both, that was just as easy. Just remember to remove the valve cores when you air them up.


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## allthatisman (May 27, 2007)

Jolly705 said:


> You are lucky, I can't get my i23's to seat at all with specialized 2bliss







If you follow this video, the guy shows how to get the tire into the bead groove BEFORE attempting to air up. I have Specialized Fast Trak Control 2.2s ony i23s and they wouldn't inflate until I seated the beads. Once you do that, you won't even need to remove the valve core. Inflate without sealant, get the tires all evenly seated, deflate, open a small opening to funnel in however much sealant you want, re inflate. It's pretty darn easy once you seat the bead.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

Its pretty weird that some folks have nothing but good to say about the i23s and others think that they are garbage. I would love to try some, but not sure what way to trust right now...


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## Jolly705 (Jun 13, 2013)

I have been riding with mine for a few weeks so far and I have no complaints. They are holding up great (I know short period of time) but I would recommend especially for the price.



dustyduke22 said:


> Its pretty weird that some folks have nothing but good to say about the i23s and others think that they are garbage. I would love to try some, but not sure what way to trust right now...


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## eugenemtbing (Nov 16, 2010)

I have been riding 2 wheelsets built by 4Slomo with i23 rims for quite a while with a variety of tires set up tubeless with Stan's, and I have been real impressed.

My first set was probably one of the first with commercially-available i23 rims (7000 alloy) and the second set was among the first with the new alloy (WT69). I have ridden these wheels hard on a wide variety of surfaces/conditions. I have bottomed out on rocks, slid sideways, crashed, come to abrupt stops up against trees/rocks, etc. And I am no weight weenie. I weight 200 lbs before clothes/water/gear, and tend to carry way more stuff than I need.

Anyways, the rims on both wheelsets still look like new, and they are still true as arrows. 4Slomo built them with DB spokes, brass nipples and CK hubs (1 geared and 1 SS).

I have inflated tires tubeless with a floor pump and with a compressor. Best approach all-round seems to be: inflate the tire with a tube, ride it or let it set a day, then pull the tube and go with liquid. I have run Geax, WTB, Specialized and Bontrager tires in this fashion without problems. 

Just a quick review of my experience over the last couple years, since it appears there are others with different results.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

That is good to know. Are all of your tires designated 'tubeless tires', or are you running non-ust as well?


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## eugenemtbing (Nov 16, 2010)

All now are some variant of "tubeless ready", i.e., TNT for Geax, TCS for WTB, etc. I am no tire expert, but I think this means UST bead and some form of non-UST casing.

I ran some non-tubeless ready/non-UST tires with Stan's and no tubes for a period of time. But the results were too unpredictable. Not worth it for me, especially considering how reliable and fool-proof my current combination is -- i23 (UST) rims. Stan's liquid and tubeless ready tires.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

*A classic i23 wheel set hits the trail*

Don came to me not too long ago to build him a set of wheels for his birthday, a present to himself. He settled on 26er Frequency i23 black 32h rims, brass silver nipples, silver WS DB14 double butted spokes, and Hadley XC/SDH QR 32h silver hubs. Rotating weight 1,882g. They built up laterally and radially very true and have somewhat of an old school look to them, with the black and silver matching his frame colors. One thing about the silver finishes is that it is quite durable, his wheels are going to look great for a long time.















His initial riding impressions: "I have about 20miles on the wheels so far and they are fantastic (they are mounted on my hard tail) I've taken it down through El Prieto 3X now and the wheels are solid and smooth!"


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

*Bike packing, gravel grinding, internal gearing, weight carrying*

About two weeks ago I completed a custom rear wheel build for Eugenemtbing. He bike packs and also rides gravel roads, among many other XC & AM rides. For bike packing he uses a tubeless 2.4" wide UST tire, and needs to mount a cyclocross 35C tire on the wheel when swapping it for gravel grinding on another bike. So the requirements are for a quite versatile wheel. The rim selection was a WTB Frequency i23 29er rim to meet the tire requirements. Due to the bike packing weight carrying requirements, the spokes are Sapim Strong single butted spokes laced x3. For simplicity, and to minimize effects of errant sticks, he selected a Shimano Alfine 8 speed hub. Here's a photo:







Rotating weight (due to the hub): 2,496g!
...


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Why Sapim Strong and not Sapim Force (or DT Alpine 3)?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

It turns out that there are two overriding design requirements for this wheel build:

The hub flange spoke hole diameters are about 2.9 mm. I'm willing to put a 2.0 mm j-bend in up to a 2.5-2.6 mm diameter flange spoke hole. That limits spoke choices to j-bends with a minimum 2.3 mm diameter (the Sapim Force has a 2.18 mm diameter at the j-bend).

Secondly, the wheel build design is for a load of about 300 pounds (including rider, bike and bikepacking equipment). A 1.8 mm butted section does not give adequate durability and performance for this weight. That drops out the DT Swiss Alpine III.



J. Random Psycho said:


> Why Sapim Strong and not Sapim Force (or DT Alpine 3)?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Oh, 2.9 mm is a bit too much indeed. I once had to build a 26" wheel with a huge and heavy 3 kW motor hub and 2.0 mm spokes. The hub had 3.9 mm (no typo, three point nine) holes; I used stacks of different sized brass washers. For all I know the wheel served fine (which I attribute to the beefy rim), but it certainly was not pleasant to build.


But as for the load, do we ever get so much dynamically added tension on a spoke that the sum exceeds static tension by more than several percent? I haven't seen spokes, even 1.5 mm in diameter (or those rolled flat from 1.5 mm round spoke), exceeding their yield strength in any riding situation, including rims being destroyed by radially directed shock. (Unless of course the spokes were compromised during build by twisting too much, or a foreign object such as a rock or horse hoof hit them -- that I saw happen, and I can say that no wheel is horseproof!) What I think we should worry about with excess load is the possible momentary loss of spoke tension near contact patch. This is where fat J-bends and threadlocking come into play.


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## eugenemtbing (Nov 16, 2010)

Got my Alfine 8/WTB i23 29er wheel from Steve. It is a beauty. I am not surprised, as Steve/4slomo has built other fantastic wheels for me.

I am still collecting the Alfine bits I need to make this conversion on my 29er bikepacker. I was impressed, though, with the care Steve put into building this wheel -- and even the way he packaged it for shipping. Everything orderly and well protected. And he knew it was for bikepacking, so he included extra spokes -- drive-side and non-drive-side spokes carefully labeled.


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## eugenemtbing (Nov 16, 2010)

Mounted a Geax Saguaro TNT to the rim last night. These i23 rims are so great. A little soapy water, some Stan's liquid, a few pushes on the floor pump, and it's done.


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

4slomo said:


> It turns out that there are two overriding design requirements for this wheel build:
> 
> The hub flange spoke hole diameters are about 2.9 mm. I'm willing to put a 2.0 mm j-bend in up to a 2.5-2.6 mm diameter flange spoke hole. That limits spoke choices to j-bends with a minimum 2.3 mm diameter (the Sapim Force has a 2.18 mm diameter at the j-bend).
> 
> Secondly, the wheel build design is for a load of about 300 pounds (including rider, bike and bikepacking equipment). A 1.8 mm butted section does not give adequate durability and performance for this weight. That drops out the DT Swiss Alpine III.


Can I post my builds /advertise here also?


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## gumby. (Mar 11, 2013)

If they're frequencies of course you can Fred. I've been riding my i25 9rs for a couple of months and very pleased with the performance. XT 785 and 788 hubs they built up nicely.


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## George Gr (Apr 3, 2012)

Hi guys,
I've just seen the thread below http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/wtb-frequency-i23-rim-cracks-870550.html regarding fails on the i23's and I was wondering if any of you had the same problem.

Is it just on the old rims with the 7000 alloy or there's a problem with the WT69 series alloy?


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## BrentD (Jul 1, 2006)

George Gr said:


> Hi guys,
> I've just seen the thread below http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/wtb-frequency-i23-rim-cracks-870550.html regarding fails on the i23's and I was wondering if any of you had the same problem.
> 
> Is it just on the old rims with the 7000 alloy or there's a problem with the WT69 series alloy?


The 7000 alloy was problematic, the WT69 is all good.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

No cracking issues reported so far on any i19s and i23s that I built with over these years (with both alloys). I keep max tensions within 1200 N. As for rider weights that I remember, well.. no one is over 100 kg.


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## George Gr (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks a mil guys.
I'll go for it then!


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## jselwyn (Mar 14, 2012)

I hammered a set of 29er I23s and now the 27.5s. Really like them. I killed a rear and a front last year, but not too suprising. They lasted a lot longer than they should have. Aside from 1 small ding in the 27.5 rear, they're doing even better. I've blown a bead twice, both times running a Specialized Butcher Control. That tire mounts really, really easily and I no longer use them. Never had a problem with Maxxis. All mount up pretty easily.


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## George Gr (Apr 3, 2012)

jselwyn said:


> Never had a problem with Maxxis. All mount up pretty easily.


TR or not?


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## jselwyn (Mar 14, 2012)

George Gr said:


> TR or not?


Both. Run Ikon on the rear in 2.35 Exo NON-TR just fine in some pretty rough terrain. Try and use TR/Exo, but I wouldn't worry about it if you found a good deal.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

I tried to mount a non TR EXO Maxxis Ardent 2.4 on a i23 wheelset with a tube to see if it would hold and it blew off the rim at about 35psi. Scared the $#!* out of me and left my ears ringing.

Every TR or UST tire I have installed on the i23's, KOM's or i25's went on with minimal effort and seated the bead with a floor pump.


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## suspman (Dec 2, 2005)

*Frequency i25s are sick!!!!*

Hey guys I finally pulled the trigger on i25s and laced em up on my i9 wheels and they are sick. I've been chiming in on tire choice and coming from the original flow rims w non tubeless tires tape but had to use Stans rubber rim strips too. But now the i25s w gorilla tape only and Bontrager xr4 team 2.35 non tubeless work perfect!!! Saved weight w/o strips and tape is super cheap. Loving these wheels. Trying the front in dirt today for the first time.
View attachment 893051


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## BushPilot (Aug 29, 2007)

+1 on the i25's mated with Bonty XR4 tires and gorilla tape. I had an issue on the rear getting a good seal with the WTB tubeless tape and decided to try gorilla instead -- cheaper and better!


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## suspman (Dec 2, 2005)

Thanks for the concurrence. I couldn't find the 30mm wide wtb or stans tape locally so I said Gorilla to the rescue. It may be a little heavier than yellow tape but thicker w adhesive should allow for better tire to rim mismatch of any combo. I feels super light still so I'm happy. The rims also seem very stiff compared to the Flow's I had, and I am already running the Industry 9 aluminum spoked wheels that are very stiff already. That I-beam design is good stuff! The has become more stable and less peaky, it still has a very round profile for my preferred riding style. It seems the narrower rim made the tire feel more like I was riding on a knife edge of sorts. Now I can't wait to throw the front through some turns. The ride with jus the rear new made me really notice the difference in profile.


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## suspman (Dec 2, 2005)

Oh and I use the Bontrager sealant now instead of stans. I like it and it should last longer since its synthetic latex I believe.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Wheel spec on my TBLTc 29er
Front Hub	DT 350
Rear Hub	DT 350
Rims	WTB Frequency Team i23 TCS
Spokes	DT 14/15 spokes, alloy nipples

Anyone have an idea on what these weigh?


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

smilinsteve said:


> Wheel spec on my TBLTc 29er
> Front HubDT 350
> Rear HubDT 350
> RimsWTB Frequency Team i23 TCS
> ...


1,850g


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

meltingfeather said:


> 1,850g


Hmmm, not bad. Thanks bro!


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## xsanmarco (Mar 13, 2005)

smilinsteve said:


> Wheel spec on my TBLTc 29er
> Front Hub	DT 350
> Rear Hub	DT 350
> Rims	WTB Frequency Team i23 TCS
> ...


FWIW I have the same bike (2014) and same wheels. On my scale the wheels measure 1950g (wheels only; no rotors/bolts or cassette)


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## Reelchef67 (Aug 21, 2011)

Ok wake up thread!
Wondering how these wheel sets have faired over time.?
I myself have been riding wtb i23 wt69 versions 26rear/650b front for a couple months now.
Mine are laced to hope pro2 evo hubs with 32 dbl dt swiss comp spokes.
So far I am very impressed they are very stiff wheels. So much easier to control in chunky chunkier.
I stripped the stickers off mine. Going for a "murdered out" red black theme on my buildnot original I know...


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## djr8505 (Apr 23, 2008)

Ive been riding on the older 7000 series i23's and the rear finally had a spoke pull through the rim. Hopefully my shop and WTB can work something out.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Finally I've gotten around to build a wheelset with Frequency i25 Team rims. Measured ERD is 537 mm as claimed, like i23, so it's not a uniformly scaled up i23 profile. Weights are 478 and 497 g, which is rather big difference compared to ZTR rims. Anodizing quality is notably better than all i23 instances which I handled. Overall, I'd say i25 may be regarded as drop-in replacement for i23, that is with those weights I no longer see where i23 would suit better than i25. Maybe even to the point where i25 becomes *the* MTB rim of choice, unless one wants something specifically different.


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## Burt4x4 (Feb 21, 2013)

I am looking forward to riding on my i25 29" wheels..just a few more weeks and I should be rollin again. REad aftrer read it stays positive with the Frequency I-beam
Should be sweet!


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## santa cruzer73 (Oct 22, 2013)

djr8505 said:


> Ive been riding on the older 7000 series i23's and the rear finally had a spoke pull through the rim. Hopefully my shop and WTB can work something out.


I can say from personal experience WTB at least in my case has some of the best customer service Ive ever seen!


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Overall, I'd say i25 may be regarded as drop-in replacement for i23, that is with those weights I no longer see where i23 would suit better than i25. Maybe even to the point where i25 becomes *the* MTB rim of choice, unless one wants something specifically different.


Been on the i25 since it came out and agree, 4$ at this point in time, never tried the i23 but have tried the first Flow.. If the next i25 bead profile is the same, and even spoke tension can be improved, the i25 is "*the* mtb rim of choice, unless one wants something specifically different"


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

What's a good price on the i25 rims? I can get them for $50 shipped each. I'm thinking about building up a new set of wheels for my Cannondale that's currently rolling on i19's (stock). I'd like something wider and better hubs.


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## Burt4x4 (Feb 21, 2013)

FIFTY bucks? oh are you talking about 26"?
29" is $70 everywere...give or take a few bucks.
I talked my wife into using her Amazon acount to buy mine LOL


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Nope. 29er. $44 per rim plus $12 shipping for one or two rims. So two rims comes to $100 shipped. So I'll take it that's a good deal...lol...I'll probably order them up tomorrow when I get my pay check in the bank. I'll just have to save a while for the hubs.


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## mces (Apr 12, 2011)

Where are you getting this price?


Nubster said:


> Nope. 29er. $44 per rim plus $12 shipping for one or two rims. So two rims comes to $100 shipped. So I'll take it that's a good deal...lol...I'll probably order them up tomorrow when I get my pay check in the bank. I'll just have to save a while for the hubs.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I've been brought a pair of CRC-bought i23 (WT69) labeled rims recently for wheelset build. One of them was an actual i23, another, much to my surprise, turned out to be an i25. Customer didn't notice this so I told them.

Anodizing quality is good on both.


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## Strife21 (Apr 23, 2013)

J. Random Psycho said:


> I've been brought a pair of CRC-bought i23 (WT69) labeled rims recently for wheelset build. One of them was an actual i23, another, much to my surprise, turned out to be an i25. Customer didn't notice this so I told them.
> 
> Anodizing quality is good on both.


Interested in getting some 650b i23 or i25 wheels built with hope pro 2 evo hubs. Which is better i23 or i25 these would be going on a 6 in travel AM rig. He hubs I can get come in 32 and 36 hole, which is preferred? Finally what kind of spokes are recommend.

I can can get the rims 50% off cause I work in the industry. So I figure that's going to save me a little cash.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Strife21 said:


> Interested in getting some 650b i23 or i25 wheels built with hope pro 2 evo hubs. Which is better i23 or i25 these would be going on a 6 in travel AM rig. He hubs I can get come in 32 and 36 hole, which is preferred? Finally what kind of spokes are recommend.
> 
> I can can get the rims 50% off cause I work in the industry. So I figure that's going to save me a little cash.


This week, i25 is better. Next week, i25 will be old news and you will have to sell them.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Well, he doesn't have either ) so I'd go with i25.


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## Lindahl (Aug 9, 2011)

Depends on tires, I'd think... flimsy sidewalls? Probably i25. i23 is what I'd choose. I like the lesser rotational weight and i25 is kinda overkill unless you want the stronger rim for downhilling/freeride. Heck, I'd even consider dropping down to i21 if they offered it in similar strength. The rim width game is kinda silly imo, unless running thin walled tires. Lower pressures due to higher volume? Can't do that without ripping a tire off the rim, so no benefit to me. Plus I like Minion DHFs, which have a great profile on 23mm rims.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Lindahl said:


> Depends on tires, I'd think... flimsy sidewalls? Probably i25. i23 is what I'd choose. I like the lesser rotational weight and i25 is kinda overkill unless you want the stronger rim for downhilling/freeride. Heck, I'd even consider dropping down to i21 if they offered it in similar strength. The rim width game is kinda silly imo, unless running thin walled tires. Lower pressures due to higher volume? Can't do that without ripping a tire off the rim, so no benefit to me. Plus I like Minion DHFs, which have a great profile on 23mm rims.


Wait... you like the lower rotational weight of the 23s, which are "overkill unless you want the stronger rim for downhilling" so you can pair them with 2-1/2 pound, 2-ply downhill tires?!? Makes sense... ut:


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## Lindahl (Aug 9, 2011)

For my non-DH/FR wheelset, I use single ply versions of DHFs (Exos). The flimsy sidewall tires I refer to are specificly single ply lightweight-design tires (usually, but not always, XC-oriented tires). Not all single ply tires have the same sidewall integrity.


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## nmeuvdast8 (Aug 11, 2014)

Just finished building my wheelset. Will test it on the trails this weekend..


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Reelchef67 said:


> Ok wake up thread!
> Wondering how these wheel sets have faired over time.?
> I myself have been riding wtb i23 wt69 versions 26rear/650b front for a couple months now.
> Mine are laced to hope pro2 evo hubs with 32 dbl dt swiss comp spokes.
> ...


I have had a set of these running since early 2013, IIRC. I bent one beyond repair when I hit tree washing out on a turn, but that MIGHT be rider error. I relaced it up to another i23 and beat the piss out it since.

Both are still rock solid. For the $60 I paid for the rims, they are a great deal.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

smilinsteve said:


> This week, i25 is better. Next week, i25 will be old news and you will have to sell them.


I just have counterfeit WTB Ixx stickers made so I look like up to date and hip going down the trail at 25 mph.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

mces said:


> Where are you getting this price?


Website called Promotive. It's a site that offers discounts on many brands but you have to be a member of certain organizations such as a police officer, military, fire/ems. There's also a bunch of companies that qualify if you're an employee. I can get pretty good discounts on a bunch of stuff such as WTB, Kenda, Rudy Project, Crank Bros., Fox. Those are a few of the cycling brands but there's a lot more. Over 350. I've used them once and that was an order of Skratch Labs...I got 40% off that order.


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## Mac_Aravan (Nov 22, 2012)

Does someone received a recent i23 rim from CRC (especially 650b)? 
I want to know if their current stock is near manufacturer weight or is it like the i23 I get last year which where 30g more heavy (490g instead of 460g).


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Mac_Aravan,

are you sure it's an i23? See my post above, I had an i25 with i23 labels from CRC recently. Measure inner width to be sure.


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## Mac_Aravan (Nov 22, 2012)

Yes it was an i23, i25 were not even announced when I ordered them (Q1 2013). 
I think it was the first wt69 alloy batch, as I thought I will have 7000 alloy (and glad I had the new one).

I ask that because KOM i23 are on sale right now, and I will switch to 650b in a few month.
KOM are lighter but frequency are a solid performer for me, If there is still so much difference between quoted and real weight, I might be tempted by lighter KOM.

Edit: I will check to be sure!


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## hkenshin (Apr 7, 2008)

Mac_Aravan said:


> I ask that because KOM i23 are on sale right now, and I will switch to 650b in a few month.
> 
> Edit: I will check to be sure!


Where are KOMs on sale?


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## Mac_Aravan (Nov 22, 2012)

At ChainReactionCycle, but only interesting for europeans.


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## Mac_Aravan (Nov 22, 2012)

Just got my KOM i23, really good finish (brushed) and subtle graphics. 
Weight is in line with specs (428g vs 425 claimed), that's a change from my freq i23.
4D drilling is a little bit different from frequency i23 as bottom is not tapered, probably to give better strength.


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## xs101 (May 20, 2014)

Hi, I am in the process of buying the components for a set of Frequency i23 650b, with DTSwiss 350 hubs 6 bolt (12x142mm rear, 15x100mm front), and DT Swiss Competition spokes, and have the wheels build by a LBS. However I don't know the exact spoke length needed. 

From the spoke calculator at prowheelbuilder.com, the front spoke lengths are FRONT Left - 273.6mm, Right - 275.8mm, and REAR Left - 274.8mm, Right - 274.7mm 

Do I have to buy 272, 274 or 276mm spokes ? Thanks !


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## Collins (Feb 23, 2013)

Go ahead and get all the correct lengths, rounding up. Going by your spoke calc, you'll need 274, 276, and 275. *You can probably "get away" with lacing all with 275, but I like to have the right amount of thread for my nipples.


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## xs101 (May 20, 2014)

Only 274mm and 276mm options for DT Swiss Competition. 
So basically the right choice would be to get 16 274mm spokes for the front, and 48 276mm spokes for the front and rear.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

xs101 said:


> Hi, I am in the process of buying the components for a set of Frequency i23 650b, with DTSwiss 350 hubs 6 bolt (12x142mm rear, 15x100mm front), and DT Swiss Competition spokes, and have the wheels build by a LBS. However I don't know the exact spoke length needed.
> 
> From the spoke calculator at prowheelbuilder.com, the front spoke lengths are FRONT Left - 273.6mm, Right - 275.8mm, and REAR Left - 274.8mm, Right - 274.7mm
> 
> Do I have to buy 272, 274 or 276mm spokes ? Thanks !


Start over with a different calculator.
The Prowheelbuilder calc is garbage.


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## Burt4x4 (Feb 21, 2013)

I am no wheel pro, but I did build my own wheel set.

I would be cautious about going "longer". 
The rear I would choose 274 both sides.
The front 274 & 276 (check DISH early and watch it as you bring on the tension)

I rounded UP on one of my numbers and I had BAD Dish from the very start. 
So I rounded down, bought new spokes and BAMM!! Dish almost perfect when nipps are at the bottom of the threads before tension begins.
Just a rookies .02c
Good Luck


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## xs101 (May 20, 2014)

All right tried the DT Swiss Calculator, FRONT Left - 270.4mm, Right - 272.6mm, and REAR Left - 271.5mm, Right - 271.1mm. So I guess 272 for all spokes then.


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## Burt4x4 (Feb 21, 2013)

Try here:
Spoke length calculator for wheel building


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## xs101 (May 20, 2014)

This calculator gives me : FRONT Left - 270.6mm Right - 270.7mm, and
REAR Left - 271.9, Right - 274.9mm



Burt4x4 said:


> Try here:
> Spoke length calculator for wheel building


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## Burt4x4 (Feb 21, 2013)

When I was doing my first lace up I too was getting conflicting numbers from all the calculators out there.
You have to go with one and forget the rest. I did the exact measurements that the UK site ^^^ says to measure (click on the tabs above to see measurements needed) and had good luck with the results. 
It felt like to me that the UK site had a great reputation and some of the Pro Wheel Builders here link to that calculator as a reference and or as being a "good" one to use..
another .02c


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## 06HokieMTB (Apr 25, 2011)

Bumping a bit of an older thread here, but building up new wheels for my Bronson C. Focus is light(ish) weight, width, cost, and durability. (Thus AL)

WTB KOM i25 front
American Classic 15mm Thru Axle front hub
WTB Frequency i25 rear
Bike Hub Store MTB270 (Bitex MTR12) 12x142 rear hub
Sapim Laser spokes
32h, 3x pattern

On paper, my wheelset should come in right around 1710 g and $430. Not bad for a 650b wheelset that I can ride and not worry about.

Debated a KOM i25 rear, but I'm a rear rim basher.

Also debated Flow's, but the Stan's 2nd Gen BST design is really tough to mount some TR/TLR tires.


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## Reelchef67 (Aug 21, 2011)

Mac_Aravan said:


> Does someone received a recent i23 rim from CRC (especially 650b)?
> I want to know if their current stock is near manufacturer weight or is it like the i23 I get last year which where 30g more heavy (490g instead of 460g).


I have a650b i23 from crc pretty much bang on for weight.
A great tubeless rim, love it


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## Reelchef67 (Aug 21, 2011)

Why KOm's , there is such small difference in weight and the reg frequeency rims are so freaking tough..KOM's not so tough


hokiebrett said:


> Bumping a bit of an older thread here, but building up new wheels for my Bronson C. Focus is light(ish) weight, width, cost, and durability. (Thus AL)
> 
> WTB KOM i25 front
> American Classic 15mm Thru Axle front hub
> ...


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## 06HokieMTB (Apr 25, 2011)

Frequency i25 rear b/c I'm a rear wheel basher.

KOM front b/c I'm not a front wheel basher. I debating going with a Nextie carbon rim for the front... But shipping from China for one rim is pretty spendy.

Difference in weight is close to 100g. They both came in heavy, but the i25 came in heavier of the two.

100g is close to 1/4 lb. Every gram/oz of rotating weight counts!


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## Reelchef67 (Aug 21, 2011)

copy that , are you going tubeless? Im running i23's freq with gorilla tape and stans , was a very easy to setup. Mine held air with no sealent.impressive rim design


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## 06HokieMTB (Apr 25, 2011)

Yes. Will use my roll of blue generic Scotch strapping tape.

Previously had i23's (about 2 years ago) and they set up great.


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## 06HokieMTB (Apr 25, 2011)

Wheels are laced. Will tension and true tomorrow night.

KOM i25 27.5 front
AM Classic 15mm thru axle front hub
Frequency i25 27.5 rear
BHS MTB270 rear hub w/ XD driver
32h, silver Sapim Laser spokes & silver brass nipples

745g front
974g rear

1719g for the wheelset, I can live with that.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Frequency rims are the best ones IME to go with aluminum nipples (if you trust those at all). No funny shaped steel eyelet to remove material from nipple head, and the directional drilling makes life so much easier for the nipple and the spoke's threaded part (so the rims are also great to go with 1.8 mm threaded spokes).


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## 06HokieMTB (Apr 25, 2011)

The directional holes look really interesting when you're used to seeing the regular style rims


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Remember those cracks around nipple holes on early i23s? These may have resulted from overtensioned spokes, which is very easy to do with directional drilling (and especially if brass nipples are used) if one is used to go by perceived torque on spoke wrench.


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## Reelchef67 (Aug 21, 2011)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Remember those cracks around nipple holes on early i23s? These may have resulted from overtensioned spokes, which is very easy to do with directional drilling (and especially if brass nipples are used) if one is used to go by perceived torque on spoke wrench.


Also the early i23's were 7000 series aluminum,(lots of problems) they quickly switched to Wt69 Aluminum


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## inch (Feb 6, 2014)

I'm looking forward to build a wheelset for my hardtail 29er, which is used for mild touring, no drops, jumps etc., on top of that I'm a clyde at 240 geared.

Is the i23 KOM for me? Any clydes with similiar experience around here?


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

I've just had a pair of 650b KOM i23s turn up to build for the girlfriend's Mondraker Foxy Carbon (eBay bargain frame)... because the graphics will match. I ask you.

First job... weigh in:









Second job... clean up all the spoke holes and get the burrs and swarf out of the rim cavity:









Third job... weigh the swarf.... nah. It didn't hit a gram.

Fourth job... clean up everything so she doesn't know I've been deburring rims on the rather lovely floral kitchen tablecloth.

Spec is going to be:

KOM i23 650b 32h
Shimano XTR M9010 hubs F:15/100 R:12/142
Sapim Cx-ray F:274/276 R:276/274
Sapim hex aluminium nipples gold

Price on the rims was exceptional from CRC so I had some budget left that went to the spokes. I've been running my Devinci Spartan on a set of Syntace MX W30 650b wheels that come in at 1580g built with Cx-rays so I figured for the girl's build for her less burly bike Cx-rays would fit the bill. The hub choice should give a quiet freewheel, unlike the Syntace.

~1480g expected.

I'm going to have a bit of an engineering play during the build by cross-referencing the spoke tensions to the plucked pitch using a freebie Android guitar tuner app: PitchLab.









I've already done the preliminary calculation for the spokes and set up a custom two string guitar for the front wheel:









For those that are interested, the B4 and C5# musical notes relate to ~490hz and ~550hz respectively which calculations suggest should be about right; maybe a bit high. I normally tune relative tensions by ear anyway so it fits my methodology. This will be backed up with tension meter measurement.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

petercarm,

With CX-Rays you may find that most spoke tensiometers press on the spoke too strong to get precise readings for lower tensioned side of an asymmetrically dished wheel. Readings end up too close to zero so it's hard to tell differences between them. What I do with CX-Rays is trust a tensiometer more on the "high" side, and trust ears more on the "low" side.

How do you arrive at those frequencies? Maybe I've just been up for too long but I get (clearly wrong) results 2 orders of magnitude below yours when I try to use Mersenne's equation ( f = sqrt(tension / linear_density) / (2 * spoke_length) ) for fundamental frequency for stainless steel, 1.5 mm diameter, round spoke tensioned to 120-125 kgf.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Readings end up too close to zero


This sounds and looks (based on TM-1 conversion chart) pretty odd. What hubs are you using?


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

J. Random Psycho said:


> With CX-Rays you may find that most spoke tensiometers press on the spoke too strong to get precise readings for lower tensioned side of an asymmetrically dished wheel. Readings end up too close to zero so it's hard to tell differences between them. What I do with CX-Rays is trust a tensiometer more on the "high" side, and trust ears more on the "low" side.


That's pretty much my plan. Or even simpler, spot check one tension vs. tone on the high side and tune by tone for all the high side, with dish and even tone taking care of the low side.



J. Random Psycho said:


> How do you arrive at those frequencies? Maybe I've just been up for too long but I get (clearly wrong) results 2 orders of magnitude below yours when I try to use Mersenne's equation ( f = sqrt(tension / linear_density) / (2 * spoke_length) ) for fundamental frequency for stainless steel, 1.5 mm diameter, round spoke tensioned to 120-125 kgf.


m/l=0.01635 kg/m ( 64x 260mm CX-ray= 272g)
T=1275 N (130kg f)
L= 0.274m (with some bracketing for shortening at the spoke nipple)

√(1,275÷0.01635)÷2÷0.274=509.58hz

Bracketed:
√(1,275÷0.01635)÷2÷0.262=532.92hz


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

meltingfeather said:


> This sounds and looks (based on TM-1 conversion chart) pretty odd. What hubs are you using?


The usual suspects mostly, such as DT 240s 6-bolt 135 mm rear, with rim centered over hub. No exotic dishing.

Readings for low side are below 10 on TM-1, and there are big tension differences between neighbouring points on the dial. But I use DT Tensio Analog 2 currently, and while its dial is more precise, it bends a spoke even more than TM-1. I guess the low side of thin steel blade spoked wheel is where Jobst Brandt/Wheel Fanatyk tensiometer would shine, but can't see myself getting hold of one anytime soon, because it wouldn't be practical expense.

petercarm,
I was using kg/mm for linear density (same digits but the number is 1000 times less), kgf for tension and mm for spoke length. Guess I need more sleep..


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

J. Random Psycho said:


> I was using kg/mm for linear density (same digits but the number is 1000 times less), kgf for tension and mm for spoke length. Guess I need more sleep..


Newton conversions are always lying around to trip you up.

Once I get my 274/276 spokes near some accurate scales, I'm thinking I'll be able to get a linear density validated for the butted ends vs the flat/drawn middle and modify the Mersenne's equation to account for that.

frequency=sqrt(tension) / 
(
sqrt(linear_density(butted section)*2*length(butted section)
+sqrt(linear_density(centre section)*2*length(centre section)
)

This would drop my previous result of 509hz down to 500hz for a 12mm butted length.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

petercarm said:


> I'm going to have a bit of an engineering play during the build by cross-referencing the spoke tensions to the plucked pitch using a freebie Android guitar tuner app: PitchLab.
> 
> I've already done the preliminary calculation for the spokes and set up a custom two string guitar for the front wheel:


You have just moved way up on my list of favorite science dorks on this forum!


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

petercarm said:


> Newton conversions are always lying around to trip you up.
> 
> Once I get my 274/276 spokes near some accurate scales, I'm thinking I'll be able to get a linear density validated for the butted ends vs the flat/drawn middle and modify the Mersenne's equation to account for that.
> 
> ...


I think you need to go ride your bike more....


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

dustyduke22 said:


> I think you need to go ride your bike more....


I think you're right.

I've refined the model a bit and it now takes into account 4 and a bit segments of the spoke:
1.butted section leaving hub flange
2.centre section
3.butted section before nipple
3.5 section sleeved by nipple but not engaged
4.threaded section engaged by nipple

The segments are used for both elongation and resonance calculations as appropriate. It also now does a lookup to spit out the nearest musical notes, with colour coding to indicate accuracy.

I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out. Tests on existing wheels show that there is a knack for getting the spoke fundamental resonance to ring and get picked up by the microphone. It does work but it is a bit fiddly. Hubs have arrived and measurements verified. Spokes are on order.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

petercarm said:


> 4.threaded section engaged by nipple


I think this part shouldn't be oscillating at spoke frequency, it's effectively one with nipple and rim under that compressive force.


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

J. Random Psycho said:


> I think this part shouldn't be oscillating at spoke frequency, it's effectively one with nipple and rim under that compressive force.


One end of it is attached to the next bit that is vibrating and we're modelling a standing wave...

I could stress out more about what resonances are present in the rim but experience is that tuning by ear is very straightforward for relative tension. If I can hear the resonance of the spoke (not the rim), it appears valid to model the spoke resonance (and assume a rigid rim). I need to make some sort of determination as to where the spoke ends and the rigid rim begins.

If I had to hazard a guess it would be that each change in profile produces a reflection and resonance of its own, so I do not expect a bell-like clarity or a clean sinusoid.

Whichever way I swing the model I still get somewhere between 500hz and 540hz matching 130kgf. From a bracketing point of view that is probably all I need.

In practice it may be easier to have a tone generator give me my pitch and then just use my ears... but now I've invented the game of using the guitar tuner App, I've got to see it through.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

petercarm said:


> I think you're right.
> 
> I've refined the model a bit and it now takes into account 4 and a bit segments of the spoke:
> [...]
> ...


This is a *very* complicated problem... would love to see your work on it and whether it has any material affect whatsoever. I have my suspicions.


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

meltingfeather said:


> This is a *very* complicated problem... would love to see your work on it and whether it has any material affect whatsoever. I have my suspicions.


Agreed.

There are all sorts of possibilities in the theoretical models. Vibration of a tensioned string is one model. With appreciable cross-section this model becomes less valid as you have to take account of the shear/bending deformation of the element providing some of the energy storage.

I have modeled simple refraction at the transition from spoke to nipple, using the tensioned string model (Mersenne's equation), which will give a lower bracketing result for the frequency. I have also modeled the nipple as a rigid structure, determining reflection and shortening of the vibrating element. This gives an upper bracket value for frequency. In reality there will be a mix of the two (and other modes) with different decays. At these numbers (130kgf) the difference appears to be ~30hz which is ~one musical tone (12TET) at the frequencies I'm expecting which would otherwise account for a ~15kgf discrepancy.

Experimentally I should be able to determine if I'm within that 15kgf target bracket and I'd hope to make an empirical judgement that could give me maybe an accuracy to half that interval.

The method is more accurate at lower tensions so it could be valid to tune the NDS to an appropriate value and rely on the dishing and spoke angle to determine the DS.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

This is becoming the most serious research on using sound for measuring spoke tension that I have ever seen. I'm staying tuned (no pun intended). :thumbsup:


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

[Minor edit of the end of the prior post.]


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

Oh and it's not "serious".

The spokes arrived in the post this morning so I'll be shelving theory and getting on with lacing up these bad boys.


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

I've been working on the front wheel tonight, cross checking tensions and pinging spokes.

The guitar tuner approach didn't work reliably. The number of harmonics and reflections meant that the predominant pitch was considerably higher than the model predicted. I suspect the lacing of the spokes at the third cross is probably mostly responsible as I was getting 700hz and greater while the calibrated Sapim tension meter was still giving numbers in the 110kgf range.

I have a Syntace wheelset that uses CX-Rays that aren't laced at the third cross. I'll try to get some reference tension and pitch readings from those wheels and see if the pitch drops back where I was expecting it.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

petercarm said:


> I have a Syntace wheelset that uses CX-Rays that aren't laced at the third cross.


Are the spokes in it straight pull or j-bend?


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

J bend.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Weird! Here's a close up of Syntace W30 MX rear, and I see interlacing there:


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

I'd seen this referenced in this review of the Syntace W35s. My W30s are like this.



> One little quirk is that the spokes aren't actually interlaced like on most wheels; apparently the über-demanding Syntace customer wants quiet wheels, and eliminating the interlacing prevents the spokes 'plinking' under heavy side loads.


See more at: Syntace W35 MX Wheels | Bicycling Australia


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Wow. Perhaps their hubs have very small spoke holes so spoke ends sit there tightly enough and the wheels can get away without spokes being interlaced. Looking at how far spoke heads protrude on the inner, non beveled side of holes (think Tune hubs), this may be the case indeed.


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

Well they are all built up, tensioned, pinged, dished and trued.









Hubs: Shimano M9010 32h







Rim: WTB KOM i23 650b
Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray 274/276
Nipples: Sapim Polyax Hex aluminium alloy gold anodized 12mm 







Weight:1570g
Tensions F:115/75kgf +/-4kgf
Tensions R:118/65kgf +/-4kgf

Now what about that silly idea of using a guitar tuner app.

Turns out it isn't so easy. A wave form captured from the mic mid-ping has many harmonics. Drive side had peaks starting just above 500hz, as predicted, but something around 700hz seems to be the lowest dominant mode:








vs. Non drive side where the picture is a lot less clear








It was possible to use the tuner app functionality on the drive side, but it seemed to like picking up that 735hz peak. That'll be F5#. My theory is that the resonance is from the 3rd interlaced cross out to the rim (i.e. shorter than the whole spoke length).








The spectral capture over a period of time with several pings and then letting it ring out. Just after the pluck, there are a mess of frequencies. Ringing out, that F5# rings true.








On the non-drive side, that ringing resonance was much less clear. With some luck involved I managed to get this picture and a D#. Didn't bother clarifying which octave and frequency. It was too unreliable and unrepeatable.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

petercarm said:


> Hubs: Shimano M9010 32h
> View attachment 960166
> 
> Rim: WTB KOM i23 650b
> Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray 274/276


Something doesn't look quite right in this photo. I notice that the spoke heads aren't sitting anywhere close to flush against the face of the hub flanges, this is something I've rarely seen on any Shimano hub, and never before on the higher end ones. This is a problem, when the spoke heads aren't fully seated it creates stress risers in the spoke elbow/head which results in premature spoke failures as well as fretting wear to the spoke holes in the flange.

Hard to say why the spoke heads aren't sitting flush, my first guess would be that the spokes were made for a hub with a much thicker flange. Either that or they over bent the elbows* such that they don't pull & seat themselves in the hub flanges when the spokes are laced & tensioned.

*the included angle on a spoke is IIRC around 105°, not 90°. This is done to help preload the spoke head against the flange seat when the spoke is laced through and brought up to tension.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Independently of aerius, I wanted to point out the same detail when I saw laced hub close-up. Haven't had 9010 hubs on my hands yet though.


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

aerius said:


> Something doesn't look quite right in this photo. I notice that the spoke heads aren't sitting anywhere close to flush against the face of the hub flanges,
> 
> my first guess would be that the spokes were made for a hub with a much thicker flange.


This is incredibly useful feedback and something I missed completely (I'd like to claim distraction, but probably a blind spot). Cx-rays are made in two j-bend sizes. I wonder if I've been supplied with the larger one. I bought two spare spokes for each size so I've got some off the wheels to examine. I think I've also got an unused hub sitting around to do some trial fitting.

I've been building wheels for myself for 28 years since buying the Jobst Brandt book and never had a premature spoke breakage problem and don't want to start now.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

Well, I think I found the problem.
DT aerolite vs. Sapim CX-Ray - Weight Weenies (about 1/3 of way down the page)

Looks like the CX-Rays have a significantly longer elbow section compared to DT's spokes. 
That would explain why they don't fit properly in your hubs.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Hmm I have never had CX-Rays protrude so much out of whatever hubs I laced them to, mostly various versions of DT 240s, but also Hope, True Precision, Tune, some older Shimano XTR, and some Taiwanese cartridge bearing hubs. However I use a spoke punch to persuade spoke heads to sit as flush as possible in the flange.

The only wheel of those that had CX-Rays break was: (1) not initially built by me and brought to me for rebuild, because spokes started to break, but I had to use the same fatigued spokes plus 2 new ones, (2) had 28 spokes, (3) was a rear wheel with upper rider weight limit of 90 kg (DT 4.2d), ridden by a strong 95kg guy. All spoke breakages in it were at the bends on brake rotor side.


I have only ever used spoke head washers to build wheels around e-bike motor hubs with especially big spoke holes (as huge as 4.1 mm in one case. It was intended for motorcycle spokes I guess but customer wanted it laced to bicycle rim and I used a stack of various brass washers with success), or around steel bodied hubs. Never used a CX-Ray in such wheels of course.


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## petercarm (Nov 5, 2007)

While not discounting that the spoke heads protrude on this build, I've looked at it a bit more closely. I think in large part the original photo looks a lot worse than it is because of an optical illusion. The angle of the lighting is projecting a significant oblique shadow from the visible spoke head.

I've gone back and examined that spoke and it is seated quite adequately. The chamfers do appear to be relatively shallow but close to the same seating position is shown from the spare spoke tested in a spare hub. There is no significant variation for any of the spokes. I did observe tbe "Bicycle Wheel" procedure for adjusting the spoke line. 

At this point my instinct is to put those wheels into service. If I get premature spoke breakage it will be a first for me and I'll learn something from the experience. I assure you the picture/lighting is misleading.


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## Mac_Aravan (Nov 22, 2012)

Just got a new freq i23 650b from CRC today, to replace a dented rear Kom i23. Kom is not strong enough for me, I will keep it front but switch to i23 freq rear.
The 2015 frequency is quite different from the one I had in 2013, way better finish:
shot peened instead of glossy, much better 4D drilling (no burrs), it seems that even the profile is a little bit different (bulge is more visible).
I do not have weigth/ERD yet. I hope that I can keep one set of spokes at least, to minimize cost from switching rims.


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## Mac_Aravan (Nov 22, 2012)

I checked ERD and weight: 

480g (in line with WTB specs of 478g), ERD is wider at 563/564, which is good for me as it's very close with KOM (measured at 564/565 on mine).

Profile has indeed changed from 2013 model, more rounded on the top, with bulge more visible.


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## boardreader (May 11, 2012)

I'm not sure that this is right place to ask this question, but as it is related to i23 rims I'm going to ask it anyway 

I have 26" i23/i25 front/rear rims running with tubes and Schwalbe Hans Dampf Performance (non tubeless) tire. I want to go tubeless now. 

After lots of searching and reading this is what I concluded.

1. Can I use stan's sealant with my current non UST/tubeless tires and go tubeless?
2. If I go with UST/tubeless tires, do I still need to use stan's sealant?

thanx.


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

boardreader said:


> I'm not sure that this is right place to ask this question, but as it is related to i23 rims I'm going to ask it anyway
> 
> I have 26" i23/i25 front/rear rims running with tubes and Schwalbe Hans Dampf Performance (non tubeless) tire. I want to go tubeless now.
> 
> ...


Reading Schwalbe's web site it looks like the "Performance" moniker relates to the quality level (single rubber make up instead of something with different rubber hardness in different parts of the tire) not the engineering of the bead.

Absent some sort of authoritative ruleing on the bead shape, your best bet is just to try it. The WTB rims will typically give you a couple of very strong "pops" as the bead seats when you inflate which is a good sign. Also, when you let all the air out they will tend to hold on to the bead without the pressure. Typically you'll have to go along and press the bead out of the rim seat with your thumbs. IIWY, I'd pull out the tubes, tape the rim, put in a tubeless valve, soap it up, and inflate it. If it does what I described above you should be good to go. It probably wont hold air long term without a sealant in it, but as a test it should work.

"Technically" you don't need a sealant with a UST system tire and bead. Practically, a sealant gives you thorn protection, helps glue the tire to the rim, and will be overall much more reliable. With your old tire you almost certainly will need a sealant. There are probably thorn holes and scuffs on the tire that don't matter with a tube but will need to be sealed if you use the tire tubeless.

Stan's is one product. Orange Seal is another that is well regarded. There's a whole thread here somewhere on how to make your own at a fraction of the cost of the commercial stuff. Search for "homebrew".


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## boardreader (May 11, 2012)

Thanks for your detailed reply :thumbsup:

These tires bead so well that it is really hard to remove from rim when I need to. They are almost glued to the rim.

By soap do you mean soapy water or liquid soap on the surface of the tire?

P.S. Schwalbe's performance line of tires are not tubeless "ready"


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

boardreader said:


> I'm not sure that this is right place to ask this question, but as it is related to i23 rims I'm going to ask it anyway
> 
> I have 26" i23/i25 front/rear rims running with tubes and Schwalbe Hans Dampf Performance (non tubeless) tire. I want to go tubeless now.
> 
> ...


I agree just try it. Lots of people use non tubeless ready tires to go tubeless. It works better with some than with others.

Also note that there are tubeless ready tires which are different than UST. Tubeless ready need the sealant to help hold the air and UST have an impermeable inner liner and don't need sealant. UST tires are much heavier.


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## Reelchef67 (Aug 21, 2011)

I23 are such a good rim design.
I run mine tubeless with stans.
Great seal mine held air without sealant. They never burp either.
I'm using max is dhr2/dhf


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

Boardreader, I think the best answer is to stick with "tubeless ready" tires, I.E. tires that have a UST bead but a normal sidewall-no worries about the bead failing, and lighter than full UST. Some regular tires work well tubeless with sealant, some dont, its kinda random. Ive tried some on the back but never on the front. Do you really want to find out your front tire doesnt work tubeless (pulls off the rim) when youre going fast downhill?


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

1. The WTB Frequency rims have a tubeless ready rim bead seat. It is designed for tires with a tubeless tire bead, which is squared off in section and is designed to "lock" in to the space formed by the ridge in the rim. The beads of tires not tubeless ready may have varying beads. It is best to use tubeless ready tires with these rims, otherwise you are taking a chance on discovering an incompatibility between your tires and rims. If you want to take that chance, it's your choice.

2. Tubeless sealant seals any gaps between the bead and the rim, between the rim tape and the rim, and between the valve stem seal and the valve stem hole in the rim. You can try running without it, but you may need it to get a good air tight seal. UST tires usually have an additional rubber inner layer, with additional weight, and may seal fine without sealant. If you are riding anywhere there are thorns or other items that can penetrate the tire, sealant may prevent air loss.



boardreader said:


> I'm not sure that this is right place to ask this question, but as it is related to i23 rims I'm going to ask it anyway
> 
> I have 26" i23/i25 front/rear rims running with tubes and Schwalbe Hans Dampf Performance (non tubeless) tire. I want to go tubeless now.
> 
> ...


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

The heavier, "true UST" tires that can run without sealant are not easily found these days. Every manufacturer seems to have assumed that every tubeless rider would use sealant in either case, so they started to cut serious weight by only making tires that rely on the stuff to work.

Looks like Maxxis still has some LUST (their name for "true UST") tires in their lineup though.


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## gumby. (Mar 11, 2013)

Having done a few thousand miles with standard Contis on I25s I'd take the chance with what you have if they seem to fit well starting at higher pressures.


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## boardreader (May 11, 2012)

Thanks everybody.

I'm going to try run my tires tubeless anyway.
Will 28mm rim tape be ok for both i23/i25 rims?


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## Reelchef67 (Aug 21, 2011)

Yup


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## Mac_Aravan (Nov 22, 2012)

Should be good, I use 29mm on i23, covers from bead to bead so no leak at the joint.


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## komondor (Aug 5, 2008)

Thinking about changing my arch ex rims to some Frequency I23 or kom rims.
I am a bit undecided which ones to get.
I would really like to get a light set of wheels. 
At this moment the wheels are with 1700grs (arch ex + dt 240s hubs + dt swiss spokes).

I am using this wheels to do everything.
From enduro rides to races.
I have even done with this wheels the mega avalanche and some bikepark action.

So will the kom resist to the abuse? or it is better to go with the frequency?


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## BrentD (Jul 1, 2006)

komondor said:


> Thinking about changing my arch ex rims to some Frequency I23 or kom rims.
> I am a bit undecided which ones to get.
> I would really like to get a light set of wheels.
> At this moment the wheels are with 1700grs (arch ex + dt 240s hubs + dt swiss spokes).
> ...


KOM front, Frequency Team rear


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

The KOM is designed for XC racing. From the way you are describing your riding style, I would recommend the Frequency i23 rims, front and back. You're not going to get a lighter weight durable wheel set unless you switch to carbon rims. It would be better to have a light weight set for XC racing, if that is what you are doing, and a durable set for everything else.



komondor said:


> Thinking about changing my arch ex rims to some Frequency I23 or kom rims.
> I am a bit undecided which ones to get.
> I would really like to get a light set of wheels.
> At this moment the wheels are with 1700grs (arch ex + dt 240s hubs + dt swiss spokes).
> ...


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

4slomo said:


> The KOM is designed for XC racing. From the way you are describing your riding style, I would recommend the Frequency i23 rims, front and back. You're not going to get a lighter weight durable wheel set unless you switch to carbon rims. It would be better to have a light weight set for XC racing, if that is what you are doing, and a durable set for everything else.


But if he is happy with Arches, wouldn't the KOMs be comparable?


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

komondor said:


> Thinking about changing my arch ex rims to some Frequency I23 or kom rims.
> I am a bit undecided which ones to get.
> I would really like to get a light set of wheels.
> At this moment the wheels are with 1700grs (arch ex + dt 240s hubs + dt swiss spokes).
> ...


Why? What's wrong with the Arches, and what do you hope to gain? More strength or less weight?


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## komondor (Aug 5, 2008)

Yes I like the arch ex rims but need to change them.
They can get center after 1 year of use and are starting to demonstrate the use and abuse. In the store they strongly recommend changing them.

I would hope to get a good mix of weight (if I could drop would be perfect) and strength.

That is my main doubt. If the Kom are similar to the arch ex would it not be enough?

I am not the most brutal on wheels, but I do not want to get 2 set of wheels.
I like to arrive and ride. Not bordering with changing wheels.


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## farmdog (Jul 15, 2015)

WTB i23 frequency race with Hope evo 2 and Prowheelbuilder spokes.


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