# The best handling vintage bike is......



## 805MTB (Jul 4, 2010)

WTB Phoenix, of course. Nothing compares to it. Who knew that a bike with a 3 foot seatpost could handle so beautifully. Must try to believe....and they are so rare and coveted.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

klasse said:


> WTB Phoenix, of course. Nothing compares to it. Who knew that a bike with a 3 foot seatpost could handle so beautifully. Must try to believe....and they are so rare and coveted.


Won't argue with that. I'm glad I don't have to...but if I needed to narrow it down to one. Phoenix.

Coveted yes, but I wouldn't say they're super rare. Certain configurations and build kits are pretty hard to come by though. 
But if you really had to, you could get a 95-98 suspension corrected cantilever mount frame with 135mm spacing pretty easy.

Now, a first year non-suspension corrected SE with Type II fork and the full tilt WTB build is quite a Phoenix to have.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

I thought it was the Cunningham..


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## LeeDumler (May 23, 2014)

Debating whether or not to fight a losing battle...


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

It´s the bike under the rider w/ the best handling skills. (Tomac´s personal Ti/carbon Raleigh was way different than the Phoenix)


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## LeeDumler (May 23, 2014)

colker1 said:


> It´s the bike under the rider w/ the best handling skills. (Tomac´s personal Ti/carbon Raleigh was way different than the Phoenix)


I like that answer. Much more diplomatic than what I was thinking.


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## 805MTB (Jul 4, 2010)

colker1 said:


> I thought it was the Cunningham..


I stand corrected. Very few of those in existence as well. How many Phoenix Ti were made? I have only seen one (on this forum).

Eric, I think the Phoenix is more common in NorCal than down here. I have only seen Nate's some years ago.


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

How about a Ti Phoenix with Toggle-cam?

1998 WTB Phoenix Titanium - Vintage Mountain Bike Workshop

This one was offered up for sale on this forum about 8 years ago. Last production run, custom order on the rear brake.


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## phattruth (Apr 22, 2012)

The best handling vintage bike I'd ever ridden was a Wicked Lite. I'm not sophisticated enough to have ridden a Phoenix.


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## rockychrysler (Aug 9, 2003)

my retrotec made be a better rider day-one









has done the same every ride since









for 25 years


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## Pepperman (Oct 14, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> But if you really had to, you could get a 95-98 suspension corrected cantilever mount frame with 135mm spacing pretty easy.


Exactly what I am been looking for, please tell me where I could get one.

Would be the perfect addition to my '94 one.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

LeeDumler said:


> Debating whether or not to fight a losing battle...


It's definitely not a Yo Eddy. 

This kind of thing is obviously massively open for all sorts of debate. People are bias towards what they own (and therefore familiar with) or perception of what would be the best bike by way of rarity/want.

I do know you can compare a Yo vs. a Phoenix based on real world experience.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

colker1 said:


> It´s the bike under the rider w/ the best handling skills. (Tomac´s personal Ti/carbon Raleigh was way different than the Phoenix)


Absolutely. Sometimes it's not even the bike. We could put vintagemtbrider/ameybrook or fillet_brazed on just about any bike, and they'd smoke me, even if I was on the Phoenix.



klasse said:


> I stand corrected. Very few of those in existence as well. How many Phoenix Ti were made? I have only seen one (on this forum).
> 
> Eric, I think the Phoenix is more common in NorCal than down here. I have only seen Nate's some years ago.


The early Ti Phoenix were made by Steve Potts. The later incarnation was made overseas. I'm not sure how many were made (or how many steel ones were made for that matter), but I've seen quite a few over the years.
There is surely a higher concentration of Phoenixes up here, but only 2 of the 5 I've owned were purchased locally.



rockychrysler said:


> my retrotec made be a better rider day-one
> has done the same every ride since
> for 25 years


A rare and lucky thing to have found a bike you connect with that early on. When I started doing this vintage mtb thing, I built and rode what I thought I wanted. Wasn't until I rode the Phoenix that it clicked. Lots of trial and error.



Pepperman said:


> Exactly what I am been looking for, please tell me where I could get one.
> Would be the perfect addition to my '94 one.


Haha, I'll give you the heads up!


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## LeeDumler (May 23, 2014)

Rumpfy said:


> It's definitely not a Yo Eddy.
> 
> This kind of thing is obviously massively open for all sorts of debate. People are bias towards what they own (and therefore familiar with) or perception of what would be the best bike by way of rarity/want.
> 
> I do know you can compare a Yo vs. a Phoenix based on real world experience.


Yeah, this thread reminds me of going to a track day and listening to a C5 Corvette owner and a Miata owner debate what the best track day car is.

Your Phoenix is set up with a Fox fork and modern tires, yeah? I have an extra Fox that I could throw on my 2000 Yo once I get it built. You up for a West Coast/East Coast shootout? I'll even make the drive down there. Maybe on some Santa Cruz trails...


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## Mr. Claus (Oct 5, 2015)

There's going to be plenty of time to debate, brag, pontificate and also of some importance ride this Sunday, all of the bikes mentioned so far will be present and then some (not to make the non Cali people envious). 

I also assume we're talking about all around ride performance (up, down, tight around and oh in the air)? Not mentioned here but my Lobster, though not specifically built for me, fits my style of riding like a glove, so as I think stated before it is the bike, but like a symbiotic relationship the bike and rider become one (yen right?), now that's the best ride! Speaking of RL #83, picking up the newly painted fork from Rick in 10 mins, just in the knick of time!! 

BTW, Lee, as I mentioned I'll bring some excellent morning pastries and such from the Berkeley Cheeseboard on Sunday...can't wait


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

My Curtlo. Duh.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

phattruth said:


> The best handling vintage bike I'd ever ridden was a Wicked Lite. I'm not sophisticated enough to have ridden a Phoenix.


See Rumpfy.. I told you.


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## phattruth (Apr 22, 2012)

colker1 said:


> See Rumpfy.. I told you.


I'm very partial to my beautifully fillet brazed Stowe Phase 3 however. It fits me like a glove and the handling is outstanding.









One day when I get some sophistication I hope to own both a Phoenix and Wicked Lite.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Pepperman said:


> Exactly what I am been looking for, please tell me where I could get one.
> 
> Would be the perfect addition to my '94 one.


x2, add me to the list. I would like to play with a 15" as compared to my 18"


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

I couldn't begin to answer with a single bike because I have not ridden them all. Also, there are too many variables. I have had bikes that handled beautifully with one build, but then were complete pigs with a change in wheels or fork. That being said, a couple of the bikes that double century has let me pedal around have been pretty sweet.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

rockychrysler said:


> View attachment 1090173
> 
> 
> my retrotec made be a better rider day-one
> ...


Do you still have the widgets on it?


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

sgltrak said:


> a couple of the bikes that doublecentury has let me pedal around have been pretty sweet.


Sgltrak is right, it doesn't get much better than this for do-it-all, dialed geometry.

Ha! Bicycle polo anyone?


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## rockychrysler (Aug 9, 2003)

AKamp said:


> Do you still have the widgets on it?


Yes. Front and rear.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

So, every time I hop on my 89 Fat, I find myself thinking, this thing just fits so right, rides so, "modern" feeling compared to others I have. 

Is it the best? Can't say, never ridden a Phoenix. 

End of the day, it's a numbers game. So until someone (Rumpfy) can produce the set of numbers that make it ride "the best" that can then be easily duplicated by any decent frame builder, to make dozens of "the best bike you can ride" and the whole world can ride it, I'm going with nothing beyond personal preference is what makes a particular bike, the best. 

Spent way too may years in retail, being told by clueless riders that Specialized is better, or Trek is better, and when challenged as to why, which STA/HTA wheelbase etc combination had they patented to make themselves heads and tails above the rest, well, gee, I guess it was all what the magazine advertising told them was the best.....

Nice Stowe! Made about 15 minutes from me. I need some spare time so finish up the one I started a year or so ago.....


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Both these handle great.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

DoubleCentury said:


> Sgltrak is right, it doesn't get much better than this for do-it-all, dialed geometry.
> 
> Ha! Bicycle polo anyone?
> 
> View attachment 1090364


Ha! I was afraid that might show up as soon as I typed my response. #33c matches my tastes in bike handling somewhat better than the Manitou above.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

NO one mentioned the Ibis Mojo hardtail or any Ibis... Scot NIcol likes trials and it's a discipline that's basically about handling. 
Since i own one i will say it's best handling bike ever made.

(though i can't ride sheet..)


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

btw... best handling on which kind of trail? fast, smooth singletrack? Yeti. climbs? Ritchey. slow scary technical singletrack? Fat Chance. No one mentioned Kleins btw.. and the mantra is in a class of it's own.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

rockychrysler said:


> View attachment 1090173
> 
> 
> my retrotec made be a better rider day-one
> ...


The one 26in mtn bike i still lust for...


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

colker1 said:


> Scot NIcol likes trials and it's a discipline that's basically about handling.


Handling at 1 mph, if that's your sort of thing.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

I hate to say it but the Old Specialized M2's road really really well. They weren't as cool but they sure did ride nice. Never gotten a chance to ride a Phoenix or a Ham but I have ridden just about everything else listed here. 

I currently have a Potts 29er and I am getting a 650 with couplers built up by him. I told him that I want it to ride exactly the same as the 29er unless he can make it faster. The drawing is very similar to a Phoenix, updated a little but pretty darn close, nothing like the newer geometry that "everyone" is looking for these days.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

My vote is none or a bike like a Yo Eddy.


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## LeeDumler (May 23, 2014)

So I guess I'm not the odd man out after all. 

Yo's rule.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

The three fastest riders on Repack were mounted on '30s Schwinns. The records stand in spite of attempts to break them on modern FS bikes. Must mean something.


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## Mr. Claus (Oct 5, 2015)

Repack Rider said:


> The three fastest riders on Repack were mounted on '30s Schwinns. The records stand in spite of attempts to break them on modern FS bikes. Must mean something.


Good point, no guts no records, riding right on the edge of sanity. Amazed the records still stand, but a different breed of rider


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## LeeDumler (May 23, 2014)

I asked Joe about that. He said it's partly to do with the change in the trail itself. Large water bars that interrupt momentum and turns that are graded off camber. Something to that tune. Also the fact that you guys were riding that trail over and over and over and over again. Hard to gain the same degree of expertise on the course from a week or two of practice.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

LeeDumler said:


> I asked Joe about that. He said it's partly to do with the change in the trail itself. Large water bars that interrupt momentum and turns that are graded off camber. Something to that tune. Also the fact that you guys were riding that trail over and over and over and over again. Hard to gain the same degree of expertise on the course from a week or two of practice.


Repack took over our lives for several years. It was all we thought about, and we did plenty of practice runs.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Repack Rider said:


> The three fastest riders on Repack were mounted on '30s Schwinns. The records stand in spite of attempts to break them on modern FS bikes. Must mean something.


Are the slower speeds a result of the improvement in brake technology? The klunker riders didn't really want to be going that fast, but they had no other choice.


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## datmony (Jul 12, 2012)

Rumpfy said:


> Won't argue with that. I'm glad I don't have to...but if I needed to narrow it down to one. Phoenix.
> 
> Coveted yes, but I wouldn't say they're super rare. Certain configurations and build kits are pretty hard to come by though.
> But if you really had to, you could get a 95-98 suspension corrected cantilever mount frame with 135mm spacing pretty easy.
> ...


Point me to a 95-98 and I will buy it immediately.  Kept my eye out for a long time now and the only ones I seem to come across are huge. That is one bike for me that I lust after.....


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## caemis (Dec 12, 2015)

datmony said:


> Point me to a 95-98 and I will buy it immediately.  Kept my eye out for a long time now and the only ones I seem to come across are huge. That is one bike for me that I lust after.....


Wilderness Trail Bikes Phoenix Frame - Buy and Sell Mountain Bikes and Accessories

And (1994 with Potts fork):
Wtb_Rider dünnt aus! | MTB-News.de


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## datmony (Jul 12, 2012)

I should have noted that I likely need a 15". I also wouldn't pay $3500 for one. Great bike don't get me wrong but I wouldn't pay that for it.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

datmony said:


> I should have noted that I likely need a 15". I also wouldn't pay $3500 for one. Great bike don't get me wrong but I wouldn't pay that for it.


I have not ridden a Phoenix but I don't believe it will make me walk over water or ressurrect the dead so I wouldn't pay more than a vintage Bontrager race lite, Ibis, Yo Eddy or Ritchey. 500 dollars a frame, max. IM(cheap bastard)O.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

datmony said:


> I should have noted that I likely need a 15". I also wouldn't pay $3500 for one. Great bike don't get me wrong but I wouldn't pay that for it.


Thats silly money. You could have an exact replica custom built for 1/2 that. I think $1000-1500 for a NOS frame is reasonable, $500-750 for a good condition used one. I paid $700ish for mine (NOS, partially build) a while ago and I felt (and still feel) like I got a screaming deal.

Back to the topic at hand, my Phoenix is the best handling bike I have ever ridden, ever. I have ridden many Yo's, I own two Wickeds, 2 Groves, a first year Merlin XLM, several Wojciks, a Rhygin, a Nevil, a Ritchey and about a dozen production bikes ranging from vintage GT's to modern Santa Cruz wonderbikes, and nothing compares to the telepathic handling of my Phoenix. One of my Wojciks comes in second (but not a close second), with my rigid Wicked, Merlin XLM, and other Wojcik all sort of battling for 3rd. Not really a fan of the Ritchey (91 Ultra)--it feels long and sluggish on the trails around me. I don't currently own a Yo, but having ridden a bunch would put it in the same group as the Merlin. If it matters at all I am an east coast rider with overt east coast bias, and as such it pains me to say that the Yo, Merlin, and Wicked are not even close to the Phoenix in terms of handling and performance. I didn't think the Phoenix could be as good as everyone said until I rode it, and it just makes everything else feel labored.


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

Haven't ridden a Phoenix either but for me and the type of riding I most do - twisty, rocky, root infested single track with some short, high speed downhills followed by more of the same - it is a toss up between these two bikes:









And


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## rockychrysler (Aug 9, 2003)

AKamp said:


> I hate to say it but the Old Specialized M2's road really really well. They weren't as cool but they sure did ride nice. Never gotten a chance to ride a Phoenix or a Ham but I have ridden just about everything else listed here.
> 
> I currently have a Potts 29er and I am getting a 650 with couplers built up by him. I told him that I want it to ride exactly the same as the 29er unless he can make it faster. The drawing is very similar to a Phoenix, updated a little but pretty darn close, nothing like the newer geometry that "everyone" is looking for these days.


i agree about the old M2s.

what about the valkyrie? didn't you have one, back in the day? i always wanted to ride a valkyrie. was it as rad to ride as it looked?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

DoubleCentury said:


> Both these handle great.
> 
> View attachment 1090435
> 
> ...


I like your trails!


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

caemis said:


> Wilderness Trail Bikes Phoenix Frame - Buy and Sell Mountain Bikes and Accessories
> 
> And (1994 with Potts fork):
> Wtb_Rider dünnt aus! | MTB-News.de


The one selling in Cali.. i saw the picture on Black MOuntain Cycles blog not so long ago. Mike found the guy a Phoenix frame for a reasonable price and built it like the pic. NOw the same guy is selling a frame for $3500?


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## datmony (Jul 12, 2012)

colker1 said:


> I have not ridden a Phoenix but I don't believe it will make me walk over water or ressurrect the dead so I wouldn't pay more than a vintage Bontrager race lite, Ibis, Yo Eddy or Ritchey. 500 dollars a frame, max. IM(cheap bastard)O.


Thousand percent agree..... it would need to smell of unicorn tears and ambrosia.... I definitely will find one some day as it is one of the few left that I care about but I certainly don't care that much.  Still on the hit list is the Phoenix and a Brodie, maybe a curtlo. I have ticked off most of the others I wanted with the Ibis SS, first year Yo, SC Bonty, Wojcik, and the indy fab. I even think it is going to be time here shortly to start thinning out some of the herd just because there are some uber cool rides that just sit there looking sad.


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## datmony (Jul 12, 2012)

colker1 said:


> The one selling in Cali.. i saw the picture on Black MOuntain Cycles blog not so long ago. Mike found the guy a Phoenix frame for a reasonable price and built it like the pic. NOw the same guy is selling a frame for $3500?


Yep same frame, I did like the back story on it and also frankly more power to him. If he gets it that would help a ton in funding the addiction.  I definitely don't begrudge him. I have built an entire machine shop at the house by buying bikes/machines/tooling/etc cheap and flipping them. He just wouldn't get that amount of coin out of me.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

datmony said:


> Yep same frame, I did like the back story on it and also frankly more power to him. If he gets it that would help a ton in funding the addiction.  I definitely don't begrudge him. I have built an entire machine shop at the house by buying bikes/machines/tooling/etc cheap and flipping them. He just wouldn't get that amount of coin out of me.


Once he was that guy counting his dollars and looking for the special bike out of reach. Every time the special bike sells for stupid money, that guy will have less chances of finding something he loves.
The way Mike V. described the build , it looked like a labour of love. NOw it is a lucky strike for a smart guy.. Someone was made a fool: either it was me from believing the story or Mike V. for telling it.
I know, i am a moralist...

Edit: it's not even a rigid SE frame coming w/ a rollercam but a v brake susp corrected Phoenix. Give me a brake.


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## datmony (Jul 12, 2012)

While a roller cam version would be sweet..... I definitely would not kick a suspension corrected one out of bed so to speak.... With a bomber or a sid and full 950 it would be a fun ride..... Oh well, one of these days. Right now the only money burning a hole in my pocket isn't really for bikes anyways but for finishing all the VFD conversions for the metal shop machines and finishing getting all the materials for the tig I just bought. I gotta figure out some cool new bike projects that require chips to be made. 

Now if a phoenix just dropped in my lap that would be a different story.......


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Wow. There's a lot going on in this thread.

First, a bike is worth someone is willing to pay. There are some frames that I'd be willing to pay a lot of money for even though i could by a better bike for less money. Knowing who built it, when, and why matters to me. I have vintage road bikes that I've paid pretty good money for, and none of them ride as well as my current modern road bike. I'd still buy the old bikes knowing that fact.

Second, how a bike rides varies a lot based on the rider and the trail being ridden. We're all of different physical proportions, weights, and each have individual riding styles. A bike that rides well and fits well for one rider may not do so for another rider. Even under the same rider a bike can vary a lot by trail. I think a Yeti is one of the best bikes I've ridden for wide-open fast trails, but I don't think they're all that great for slow pick-your-line trails. Conversely a Fat Chance does great on the slower style trails, but does not impress me on the more wide-open stuff.

I've owned three Phoenix frames in the past - in three diffrrent sizes. All rode well, the smaller two rode really well. I'd not say that they were the best I've ever ridden, but they're among the best. They do everything really well, and nothing poorly.

My personal favorite vintage bike is still a Bontrager Race. To me it's the best climbing bike and one of the best handling bikes ever. It's a handful in the loose steep stuff, and there are better bikes for riding on those trails. But it's the bike I always go back to. Most of my current rides are on a modern Ritchey P650 frame and I think it's a better overall XC bike than any I've ever owned. It's replaced the Bontrager as my "measuring stick" for other bikes.

There are a lot of really nice riding bikes that have been made over the years. I don't think any one of them can ever be considered "the best." A lot of what makes a bike special is in your head. Sentimental thoghts might a bike ride better than anything else.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

1992 Mountain Goat Whiskeytown Racer.....OMFG


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

That Manitou was "interesting". 


sgltrak said:


> Ha! I was afraid that might show up as soon as I typed my response. #33c matches my tastes in bike handling somewhat better than the Manitou above.
> 
> View attachment 1090437


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

datmony said:


> Point me to a 95-98 and I will buy it immediately.  Kept my eye out for a long time now and the only ones I seem to come across are huge. That is one bike for me that I lust after.....





caemis said:


> Wilderness Trail Bikes Phoenix Frame - Buy and Sell Mountain Bikes and Accessories
> 
> And (1994 with Potts fork):
> Wtb_Rider dünnt aus! | MTB-News.de


If you misspell phoenix you can find this one on eBay. It is is pretty poor condition, however, even if it was like new condition that seems like a very high price to me.

RARE Vintage Wilderness Trail Bikes Phenoix Steve Potts Steel 26" MTB Frame 18" | eBay


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

DoubleCentury said:


> Sgltrak is right, it doesn't get much better than this for do-it-all, dialed geometry.
> Ha! Bicycle polo anyone?


The older you get, the more you'll like the way that bike rides. 



MendonCycleSmith said:


> End of the day, it's a numbers game. So until someone (Rumpfy) can produce the set of numbers that make it ride "the best" that can then be easily duplicated by any decent frame builder, to make dozens of "the best bike you can ride" and the whole world can ride it, I'm going with nothing beyond personal preference is what makes a particular bike, the best.


No one can do that...not even me!



Repack Rider said:


> The three fastest riders on Repack were mounted on '30s Schwinns. The records stand in spite of attempts to break them on modern FS bikes. Must mean something.


Means the trail layout and conditions have changed. You've said yourself that these old bikes don't ride anywhere close to as well as modern bikes do. All that bike technology and advancement of the DH MTB lifestyle and...what...everyone got slower?

Unofficially (Strava), the top times are pretty close. 4:24-4:27 for the podium spots...but who knows how accurate the start and stop lines are.
Only real way to know how far we've come (or not come) is to break out your timers and properly mark the start and finish.
No one can dispute how insanely fast you guys were going down that hill on those bikes though.



laffeaux said:


> Second, how a bike rides varies a lot based on the rider and the trail being ridden. We're all of different physical proportions, weights, and each have individual riding styles. A bike that rides well and fits well for one rider may not do so for another rider. Even under the same rider a bike can vary a lot by trail. I think a Yeti is one of the best bikes I've ridden for wide-open fast trails, but I don't think they're all that great for slow pick-your-line trails. Conversely a Fat Chance does great on the slower style trails, but does not impress me on the more wide-open stuff.


I was about to post something similar to this. Our respective favorite bikes are based on a lot of variables. 
I think mostly it depends on our riding style and the trails we ride most. If your trails and riding style are similar to mine, chances are we may like the same bikes.


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## Mr. Claus (Oct 5, 2015)

I was about to post something similar to this. Our respective favorite bikes are based on a lot of variables.I think mostly it depends on our riding style and the trails we ride most. If your trails and riding style are similar to mine, chances are we may like the same bikes.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, I'm almost reading this as Eric's (R that is) a Bonty fan Ha? I think Eric L summed it up quite well. Eric L sadly K Bontrager was not represented at the VRC gathering this past weekend. I shoulda brought out my 91' Race, but she's not set up VRC per se (but a hellofa ripper, keeps your mind focused). Santa Cruz builders where there in spirit in the form of several Lobsters, my 1989 brazed might have been best in show, but Mike's (?) orange RL crush is awfully sweet.....last thought I can't wait to see and maybe ride? that Ritchey brazed 650b when next I drive out to Montana next summer, I'll not make the same mistake this past summer and I'll time my trip better.....cheers to all


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

"Best handling" is the bike you ride the most. A few years ago Joe Breeze built a bike with an 80-degree head angle, just to see what it was like. Said it felt strange at first, but then he got totally dialed on it. When he switched back to his regular bike he said it felt like he was steering through mud.

Reason I never did "bike tests" when I had an editorial position at _Bicycling!_ is that any bike that wasn't mine felt weird until I rode it for a while, then my own bike felt weird.

It's also why I wrote the "Universal Bike Review."


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## johngp73 (Apr 28, 2009)

The guy selling the Phoenix is a different person. That story was published on WTB's website and apparently the seller just copied the photos. The Phoenix that Mike built is still in use regularly and not for sale.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Repack Rider said:


> Reason I never did "bike tests" when I had an editorial position at _Bicycling!_ is that any bike that wasn't mine felt weird until I rode it for a while, then my own bike felt weird./QUOTE]
> 
> While I agree that this is true, the transition to get use to a new bike is quick. To me it takes less than a mile to get used to bikes that ride very differently. There are a few exceptions - like a Slingshot where the front tire and rear tire don't track in the same plane - where the transition is a bit harder harder.
> 
> ...


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> The older you get, the more you'll like the way that bike rides.


So true.

Although I must say I've been pleasantly surprised that I've not altered my riding position to compensate for nagging injuries or age related issues, so far. I can still run a 150 mm stem just as bad as I did BITD.

OT, but it is hard to hear about people that have to make big changes to continue riding, or have pretty much given up riding at this point. That kind of makes this discussion a moot point.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

DoubleCentury said:


> So true.
> 
> Although I must say I've been pleasantly surprised that I've not altered my riding position to compensate for nagging injuries or age related issues, so far. I can still run a 150 mm stem just as bad as I did BITD.
> 
> OT, but it is hard to hear about people that have to make big changes to continue riding, or have pretty much given up riding at this point. That kind of makes this discussion a moot point.


You and CCMDoc.

There was a guy on a Yo Eddy on the ride yesterday. Older. He pedaled pretty hard and did far better than I was expecting. No problem negotiating the single track.

His set up:


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## banks (Feb 2, 2004)

phattruth said:


> The best handling vintage bike I'd ever ridden was a Wicked Lite. I'm not sophisticated enough to have ridden a Phoenix.


First year Wicked, for me! Although I was able to ride more on my '88 Ridge Runner Team with 1st gen Tange Switchblade.


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## longfinkillie (Jan 28, 2011)

My Wojcik would be the best handling vintage bike. If only it wasn't for it's rider...


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## LeeDumler (May 23, 2014)

Rumpfy said:


> You and CCMDoc.
> 
> There was a guy on a Yo Eddy on the ride yesterday. Older. He pedaled pretty hard and did far better than I was expecting. No problem negotiating the single track.
> 
> ...


That's my friend Lenny's Yo Eddy. He's 70 and has back issues, but he still rides pretty much every day of the week. He's the oldest guy in his "over the hill gang" to not resort to an electric assist mountain bike.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

laffeaux said:


> Wow. There's a lot going on in this thread.
> 
> First, a bike is worth someone is willing to pay. ...


Trade "bike" for "property" and you have the idea behind old, legit neighbourhoods w/ lots of personality turning to fake yuppiedom. 
Or cool handmade bike companies being bought and destroyed by financial games. 
NOt that I care too much.. there are worse things in life than money destroying real value.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

DoubleCentury said:


> So true.
> 
> Although I must say I've been pleasantly surprised that I've not altered my riding position to compensate for nagging injuries or age related issues, so far. I can still run a 150 mm stem just as bad as I did BITD.


i just need a sloping TT so my belly doesn't rub when I ride.

I think a vintage bike is as much about the craftsmanship, art, and history as the ride.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

For me it's more, when's the best I've handled a bike. The bike I was on then was my Monster Fat.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

The Phoenix has a laidback seat angle and a tall front. Together they make for a position on a bike where you feel safe on steep descents w/ excellent control through the hbars. The tall bars have your arms absorb shocks instead of your neck and shoulders. The front center is tight so you have a bike that's zippy but w/ a feeling of control and stability.. and comfort.
I have not ever thrown a leg over a Phoenix and I am describing the ride.. It's just common sense. Basic math.
Otoh it's not the best geometry for sustained and fast motoring up climbs. A Bontrager or Ritchey are better at that.

NOw i have no idea on canadian bikes, on Brodie or Rocky MOuntain geometry. They are suposed to work on tight, steep trails but all have steep seat angles coupled w/ a tall head tube.


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## LeeDumler (May 23, 2014)

It's funny you mention seat tube angle, as I've noticed the more "aggressive" bikes of the current model year are using much steeper angles, around 73.5 degree. I'm sure the dynamic for suspension bikes is different, but it seems odd to me that the standard has changed in such a counter intuitive way. 

While we're getting technical, I'd like to add that rider weight can make any given bike handle well or poorly. To site an example, I had an Ibis Mojo from one of the model years where they used larger and larger tubing as you went up through the size range. Being 150lbs, the smaller 16"-ish frame felt spot on in terms of compliance, but proper fit at 5'10" with long arms and legs put me on a 19". I rode that bike maybe three times before giving it up because the ride was too harsh and it had a tendency to bounce around the trail. Maybe if I were 190lbs it would have been a more pleasant experience.


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

Ride a Cunningham and at first glance, everything was wrong . However riding it proved how wrong I was. 
I've owned a Phoenix and it was a great riding bike, if you find one in your budget, get it.
My preference though is a 3 way tie my Salsa Ala Carte, Retrotec and Rock Lobstet fit what I like best.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

LeeDumler said:


> It's funny you mention seat tube angle, as I've noticed the more "aggressive" bikes of the current model year are using much steeper angles, around 73.5 degree. I'm sure the dynamic for suspension bikes is different, but it seems odd to me that the standard has changed in such a counter intuitive way.
> 
> While we're getting technical, I'd like to add that rider weight can make any given bike handle well or poorly. To site an example, I had an Ibis Mojo from one of the model years where they used larger and larger tubing as you went up through the size range. Being 150lbs, the smaller 16"-ish frame felt spot on in terms of compliance, but proper fit at 5'10" with long arms and legs put me on a 19". I rode that bike maybe three times before giving it up because the ride was too harsh and it had a tendency to bounce around the trail. Maybe if I were 190lbs it would have been a more pleasant experience.


There you go>> the best handling bike is custom made for me by someone who knows a lot about bike behaviour.

btw: i ride a 17in(small) mojo and it´s compliant indeed. They are sized in a weird way: a medium is a big, tall bike and fits tall people but w/ a short top tube, always. Great handling at fast singletrack.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

LeeDumler said:


> It's funny you mention seat tube angle, as I've noticed the more "aggressive" bikes of the current model year are using much steeper angles, around 73.5 degree. I'm sure the dynamic for suspension bikes is different, but it seems odd to me that the standard has changed in such a counter intuitive way.
> 
> While we're getting technical, I'd like to add that rider weight can make any given bike handle well or poorly. To site an example, I had an Ibis Mojo from one of the model years where they used larger and larger tubing as you went up through the size range. Being 150lbs, the smaller 16"-ish frame felt spot on in terms of compliance, but proper fit at 5'10" with long arms and legs put me on a 19". I rode that bike maybe three times before giving it up because the ride was too harsh and it had a tendency to bounce around the trail. Maybe if I were 190lbs it would have been a more pleasant experience.


Lee... the yo you like has a fat, stiff tubeset. The mojo may have bounced you around and felt stiff because of it's steep angles and taller bike feeling. It's tall and throws you forward.


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## cacatous (Dec 1, 2013)

My 17" Offroad Sport was pretty tidy on single track! Seemed to have pretty modern geometry too.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

colker1 said:


> Lee... the yo you like has a fat, stiff tubeset. The mojo may have bounced you around and felt stiff because of it's steep angles and taller bike feeling. It's tall and throws you forward.


I think I always liked our Monster Fat with custom fork (same as 10th anniversary model) more than Yo because it is not as stiff as our Yo Eddy. The Yo Eddy was most enjoyable with a suspension fork.

Still it is hard to consider any vintage bike as best handling when there are modern bikes in the garage and modern plus old school trails 2 mi from home. We appreciate but only enjoy the old bikes in a limited range of riding scenarios.


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

bitflogger said:


> Still it is hard to consider any vintage bike as best handling when there are modern bikes in the garage and modern plus old school trails 2 mi from home. We appreciate but only enjoy the old bikes in a limited range of riding scenarios.


That's one perspective and I agree - I can't/won't jump off of 6' high rocks or fly through the air across gullies on any of my vintage bikes.

To be honest, I wouldn't try on any modern bikes either.

So given my self-imposed limitations, I have much more fun riding the NORBA/Grundig race courses I raced in the 80sand 90s on bikes of that era than on my modern bikes.

Perhaps it's because the modern rigs force me to realize how truly slow I am vs. the *feeling* of speed on an old bone-rattler


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

bitflogger said:


> I think I always liked our Monster Fat with custom fork (same as 10th anniversary model) more than Yo because it is not as stiff as our Yo Eddy. The Yo Eddy was most enjoyable with a suspension fork.
> 
> Still it is hard to consider any vintage bike as best handling when there are modern bikes in the garage and modern plus old school trails 2 mi from home. We appreciate but only enjoy the old bikes in a limited range of riding scenarios.


Maybe not the best line of though, maybe the wrong comparison but let's look at the current sports car x vintage... Let's keep it real and not go to the zillion dollar machines: an old sports car has a less controlled, less comfortable feelling to it but this same "manual", fickle personality is what makes it so personal as an experience. 
The contemporary machine makes the experience sometimes removed and abstract.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

klasse said:


> The best handling vintage bike is...... Wtb Phoenix, of course


Just curious, what is it in particular that you think makes this bike handle so great and what year? I am guessing that not every year had the same exact geo, but I could be wrong.
Also, handle what? What type of trails and riding do you think the Phoenix handles the best?


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

colker1 said:


> Maybe not the best line of though, maybe the wrong comparison but let's look at the current sports car x vintage... Let's keep it real and not go to the zillion dollar machines: an old sports car has a less controlled, less comfortable feelling to it but this same "manual", fickle personality is what makes it so personal as an experience.
> The contemporary machine makes the experience sometimes removed and abstract.


To be fair I really had our Honzo and to a lesser extent Farley 9.6 in mind - mostly the Honzo. It's steel, rigid rear, doesn't have much fork travel but it does have big not so exotic Deore hub wheels. The 68 degrees, low feeling, short chain stays and ease of both feet on the ground or jump off give that best handling feel. I didn't think of our 2016 Remedy as a fair comparison. Some would think the Honzo's a crude tank compared to the others.

Many of the points here are taken and understood. They made me think of riding trails with British 3 speeds, my Elgin an Schwinn that were my MTBs before commercial ones.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

bitflogger said:


> To be fair I really had our Honzo and to a lesser extent Farley 9.6 in mind - mostly the Honzo. It's steel, rigid rear, doesn't have much fork travel but it does have big not so exotic Deore hub wheels. The 68 degrees, low feeling, short chain stays and ease of both feet on the ground or jump off give that best handling feel. I didn't think of our 2016 Remedy as a fair comparison. Some would think the Honzo's a crude tank compared to the others.
> 
> Many of the points here are taken and understood. They made me think of riding trails with British 3 speeds, my Elgin an Schwinn that were my MTBs before commercial ones.


I was reading the other day on another forum someone complaining about the steep prices on state of the art mtbs. Riding vintage is another perspective, anthwer "can do"; not better or worse but different and that's good.It's always good to bring another standard to the table.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

singletrackmack said:


> Just curious, what is it in particular that you think makes this bike handle so great and what year? I am guessing that not every year had the same exact geo, but I could be wrong.
> Also, handle what? What type of trails and riding do you think the Phoenix handles the best?


I think the klasse was trolling a bit with the post. He thinks long seatposts are silly.


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## Otissmith (Nov 29, 2016)

I am said owner of the WTB Phoenix in California being questioned by some. I can assure you that it is not for sale. If one were to actually read the description from the eBay seller, he states the frame for sale is not the bike in the pictures. I took photos of my bike that I shared with WTB for the article they wrote about it. The seller then took those photos off the web as reference for the frame he's selling. Sorry for the confusion.


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

If we are talking pure handling, and not just overall ride, I have this Serotta that is pretty darn responsive.

John


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