# Have we reached the peak?



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Talked to to friend over the weekend that owns a bike shop in Michigan. He told me his floor of full of bikes that aren't selling and his warehouse is full of bikes yet to be built. He had to tell his shop manager to quit ordering bikes.

Anyone else hearing or seeing the same?


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## Shinscrape (5 mo ago)

This means cheap bikes this winter woohoooo!


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## Loll (May 2, 2006)

Bikes are on sale at many of the larger local chain stores. Yes we have reached the peak.

Meanwhile after market parts such as Shimano 4 piston brake pads and some 12 speed cassettes are still out or way over priced


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I guess I should strip that frame, clean it, and sell it.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

itshappening.gif









The Coming Bike Industry Shakeup


I think it's easy to predict that the next couple of years will be very turbulent ones for bike companies and bike shops. I'm expecting demand for new bikes to crater. The economy looks shaky. Prices are up significantly. Lightly used bikes bought during the pandemic are starting to hit the...




www.mtbr.com


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Yes. There was an article on bikeretailer or something like that (an Outside brand I think) that said shops are in the process of getting slammed with all the inventory they ordered in 2020/21 and the demand has gone!


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

I think some brands are pricing themselves out of demand too. Recently put off buying a frame when the price jumped $600.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Here we reached the peak.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

prj71 said:


> Anyone else hearing or seeing the same?


Peak bicycle sales? Probably. Peak broped sales? Nope.

The problem with mountain bicycles is multi-fold:

People are lazy and want motors so a bicycle doesn't appeal.
The cost for mountain bicycles is quite high relative to the disposable income people have.
Geometry/tech changes have slowed down.
Mountain bicycles are fairly robust.
So talking about folks that still want to mountain bike #2, #3 & #4 above conspire to keep them rolling along on their existing bikes and I have no doubt in some areas LBS will be stuck with stock if they ordered on the high end of expectations.

For the broped crowd I see every e-bike that comes in my LBS snapped up and people paying deposits for bropeds that won't show up for months.


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

I work part time for a bike shop that mainly sells Orbea. 

I can confirm that the shop is hella packed and we still have over 50+ boxes with unbuilt bikes in the storage. 

Those are all bikes ordered in 2021.
However, the shop does sell a lot of bikes. 
The "Jobrad" thing in Germany makes it possible for pretty much anyone to buy an expensive bike, or ebike.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

It's crazy to think how bad things were not that long ago; not just with our biking world good, but in all other areas of life.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

OneTrustMan said:


> Jobrad


I just looked this up...we NEED this in the U.S. I would 100% buy more bikes!


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

I have not noticed a glut or backlog of inventory around here. 

I did notice the introduction/growth of newer and unfamiliar bicycle brands. One example, Allied Cycles (Arkansas). I knew of them two years ago but never seen one at the LBS. Today, 3 of the last 3 LBS I've been to have Allied Cycles on display. Pretty cool. 

I think any inventory glut is caused by 2 things:
1. Inflation. As mentioned above, discretionary spending is decreasing. 
2. Time. Most people are back to work 10 hrs a day at their 8-paid hrs a day gig. 

During the summer of 2020, both of the above were much different; if not completely reversed.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

It's all down hill from here...right?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Cleared2land said:


> It's all down hill from here...right?


My favorite part of the day... 

except it's never like that here, until the very end. Then it's beer time.


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## ehfour (Oct 17, 2016)

prj71 said:


> Talked to to friend over the weekend that owns a bike shop in Michigan. He told me his floor of full of bikes that aren't selling and his warehouse is full of bikes yet to be built. He had to tell his shop manager to quit ordering bikes.
> 
> Anyone else hearing or seeing the same?


Seeing the same thing for a lot of the local bikes shops here, 20-50+ bikes sitting on the floor

Most of the bikes are in the $10K + CDN budget range though, which makes it understandable why so many are sitting


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Beavis, I have seen the top of the mountain, and it is good.


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## ljsmith (Oct 26, 2007)

You aren't giving the bike manufacturers enough credit. Once they design the new short, high and steep bikes and all the web sites and magazines say you will be the laughing stock at the trail head with those low long and slack bikes, everyone will rush to the stores to get the latest cutting edge geometry bikes. Add in a few more new standards like 1 1/3" fork steer tubes, 30" wheels, extra super boost and 15.2mm axles to make all your existing bikes obsolete and the sales problem is solved.


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

vikb said:


> Peak bicycle sales? Probably. Peak broped sales? Nope.
> 
> The problem with mountain bicycles is multi-fold:
> 
> ...


Agree. When I picked up my new bike a month ago, it was the only pedal bike out of shipment of 10. The others were all eBikes. No one in their right mind would be spending more than $7k on a bike and not have a motor in it. I'm seeing a lot of the local shops with a glut of inventory especially in the high-end builds (X01, AXS, XTR, etc). So I think sales this fall and winter will be coming on high-end builds. They have the largest margins and much room to discount. Wouldn't be surprised to see many of these bikes 30%+ off in the coming months.

Bread and butter builds like GX, SLX will probably see less discounts if any. Most (like my new bike) were preordered and said for since last year. That said - why get GX/SLX build, when you can get X01/XTR for the same price on discount. That's how the inventory will balance out over the next year.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

smoothmoose said:


> No one in their right mind would be spending more than $7k on a bike and not have a motor in it.


While my bikes aren't that expensive, I'm going to just point out that I hear people say this about $500


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

dysfunction said:


> While my bikes aren't that expensive, I'm going to just point out that I hear people say this about $500


Totally. Looks like I get into RAD power bike for $899. That's a different market segment, but the mentality is the same.


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## Mike Aswell (Sep 1, 2009)

So in economics, you can get into nuanced linguistic arguments. But I would say what OP is describing means we are beyond the peak (not at it). Which is what quite a few people on here have already been saying for months....sure it might be a leading indicator, but it's an indicator that the peak is over.

Also: +1 on the pricing thing. As the economy gets shakier and inflation continues, people will look closer and closer at every expense. I know I have a bike buying problem...but a big brand recently revamped a bike I like and would love to have, and when I saw the pricing I decided it wasn't worth it. If it had been less expensive I probably would have bought it.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I'll just point out that consumer confidence is what causes the economy to get 'shakier'. Confidence was higher, until the governments report on inflation came out, and then the market panicked. While the market and the average consumer are rarely coupled, we'll see if consumers panic now.

Gotta love feedback loops.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Does this mean yackos on FB marketplace are going to stop trying to sell Surly frames for triple what they were brand new?


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Does this mean yackos on FB marketplace are going to stop trying to sell Surly frames for triple what they were brand new?


Or people selling their Japhy? Just kidding. I saw it a while back and it gave me a little bit of a sad, but I get it. On to new things.


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## Mike Aswell (Sep 1, 2009)

dysfunction said:


> I'll just point out that consumer confidence is what causes the economy to get 'shakier'. Confidence was higher, until the governments report on inflation came out, and then the market panicked. While the market and the average consumer are rarely coupled, we'll see if consumers panic now.
> 
> Gotta love feedback loops.


That's true to a point...but when people have a larger percentage of their disposable income going to the same quantity of food, and gas, and energy that they basically need (or are more inelastic demands) then they have less money to spend on discretionary goods. Consumers spending money is good for the economy, but it is a real thing that they have less of that money to spend because it's being eaten up by inflation....


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> It's all down hill from here...right?


In more ways than one. Buckle up!


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Mike Aswell said:


> That's true to a point...but when people have a larger percentage of their disposable income going to the same quantity of food, and gas, and energy that they basically need (or are more inelastic demands) then they have less money to spend on discretionary goods. Consumers spending money is good for the economy, but it is a real thing that they have less of that money to spend because it's being eaten up by inflation....


I'm saying that assuming that the economy is going to get shakier, makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Inflation is what it is. To be honest, I've never lived in a non-inflationary economy, and neither have you


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

There will be no way to tell for sure what is going to happen, as it's never happened before in recent history. Plain and simple, if you thought we would all pull out of this mess as soon as covid started going away, you've got another thing coming. 

Time will tell if bike will sell, and now that we start to see bikes going "on sale" (which I would imagine is getting close to the pre covid tax hike pricing) we are like sharks smelling blood. But patient sharks who wait for the fish to go on sale before eating them.


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## TLN (Jul 1, 2016)

prj71 said:


> Talked to to friend over the weekend that owns a bike shop in Michigan. He told me his floor of full of bikes that aren't selling and his warehouse is full of bikes yet to be built. He had to tell his shop manager to quit ordering bikes.
> 
> Anyone else hearing or seeing the same?


I'm in the market for a mountain bike or frame and some road bike parts (high-end wheelset). I need XL size. 
Mind you sharing his contact info? I'm in Chicago and will be able to pick it up in person to make life easier.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

BadgerOne said:


> Or people selling their Japhy? Just kidding. I saw it a while back and it gave me a little bit of a sad, but I get it. On to new things.


I took it down almost immediately lol... couldn't go through with it. Had a derp moment.


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## Jolyzara (Jan 11, 2022)

Some bikes are still hard to find... bike companies will just slow down production and keep prices where they are. I doubt we will ever see a major drop in price without a major decline in component quality.


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## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

Mike Aswell said:


> So in economics, you can get into nuanced linguistic arguments. But I would say what OP is describing means we are beyond the peak (not at it). Which is what quite a few people on here have already been saying for months....sure it might be a leading indicator, but it's an indicator that the peak is over.
> 
> Also: +1 on the pricing thing. As the economy gets shakier and inflation continues, people will look closer and closer at every expense. I know I have a bike buying problem...but a big brand recently revamped a bike I like and would love to have, and when I saw the pricing I decided it wasn't worth it. If it had been less expensive I probably would have bought it.


This was the specialized status for me. When they were first rolled out at 2500 with that silly marketing campaign I would have bought one, but the local S dealer had no idea what I was talking about and did not seem interested in figuring it out. I just cracked my FS frame and figured, screw it, I am ordering one up now. Now they are $3000. I will just go without FS for a bit. I am hoping the framesets drop to $800 or $900 and then I will pounce on that and build one up.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Guy reaching his peak:


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

Jolyzara said:


> Some bikes are still hard to find... bike companies will just slow down production and keep prices where they are. I doubt we will ever see a major drop in price without a major decline in component quality.


Back before COVID when I was kicking tires on a new bike, I was hoping for those winter discounts to get me into a FS race bike for less than 3k. Silly me. I bought my bike used this year because the new prices were just too steep.

I agree that retail prices won't drop precipitously. Inputs to production are still expensive, and not getting cheaper. There are still supply chain limits to production. As inflation tames, maybe prices don't keep rising as much year over year, but the Santa Cruz Blur base model will never be 3k full retail ever again. Maybe it hangs out in the low to mid 5k for a few years, but I just don't see how it drops significantly. 

Manufacturing will respond to demand. If shops can't move high end FS without deep discounts, and then only a few bikes a year, but the e-bikes are flying out the door and paying bills, that's what will be ordered and manufactured.


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## vegen (Jan 2, 2006)

Looking forward to tires not costing close to $100 each.


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## WhiteDLite (Mar 4, 2016)

vegen said:


> Looking forward to tires not costing close to $100 each.


Gotta rock them Delium's..


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## Jolyzara (Jan 11, 2022)

vegen said:


> Looking forward to tires not costing close to $100 each.


Car tires?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Does this mean yackos on FB marketplace are going to stop trying to sell Surly frames for triple what they were brand new?


Or Pinkbike, but not as bad. No, I am not going to buy any one of the three revel ranger fames available used on pinkbike for $2,500-2,700 when I can buy the frame new with a warranty from fanatik for $2720 with a warranty.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Jolyzara said:


> Car tires?


I paid $95 each. They also came with a 40k mile warranty.


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## shakabra (Jun 7, 2009)

vegen said:


> Looking forward to tires not costing close to $100 each.


This is one product where it pays to shop from the European retailers and be patient with shipping.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

prj71 said:


> He told me his floor of full of bikes that aren't selling and his warehouse is full of bikes yet to be built.


What bikes are not selling? When i was looking for a specific bike and size I could not find it. There were only a few in all of Southern California.


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

smartyiak said:


> I just looked this up...we NEED this in the U.S. I would 100% buy more bikes!


It's pretty nice. 
You can save up to 35% costs and after 3 years you can buy it for 18% of its original price and sell it. 
Rinse and repeat. 
The higher the price of the bike is, the more you can save. 
I know someone who only goes for 10k+ bikes 
After 3 years he sells them, so he rode an expensive bike for 3 years almost for free.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Yeah, we are past the peak. I am seeing more sales in Colorado and some shops are quite full of bikes. The normal times are about to return.


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

It's not just the bike industry. In softgoods industry, e-com sales have taken a nose dive. Everyone got the forecast wrong. People are buying less now than when they were stuck at home.


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## Grodyman (Sep 29, 2016)

Yes, I have been trying to sell one of my bikes, and the offers have been extra low-ball. The market is cold.


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## WhiteDLite (Mar 4, 2016)

Grodyman said:


> Yes, I have been trying to sell one of my bikes, and the offers have been extra low-ball. The market is cold.


If all offers are low, it’s hard to call them low ball. You’re priced too high for current market.


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## Grodyman (Sep 29, 2016)

WhiteDLite said:


> If all offers are low, it’s hard to call them low ball. You’re priced too high for current market.


2021 Giant Trance Advanced 29 Pro1 in Mint condition. List $5900, paid $5000, listed for $3500, offered $2000.

Yes, lowball. Just shows that the market has cooled considerably.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Grodyman said:


> Yes, I have been trying to sell one of my bikes, and the offers have been extra low-ball. The market is cold.


I was considering selling and replacing one of my bikes. I suppose this isn't the time to do that.


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## alexdi (Jun 25, 2016)

Grodyman said:


> 2021 Giant Trance Advanced 29 Pro1 in Mint condition. List $5900, paid $5000, listed for $3500, offered $2000.
> 
> Yes, lowball. Just shows that the market has cooled considerably.


That's weak. I think a few things are working against you: it's the last year of the previous model, it's not a desirable brand (I blame Giant's marketing budget), and the local market is very thin for anything above $1500 regardless of the original price. That's doubly true with the inflation we've had recently (with a slight decrease in unadjusted income to go with it) that's hollowed out discretionary spending.

It's an awesome bike, though. I paid $2500 for the '20 Advanced Pro 2 model six months ago. Maestro is so, so good.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

TLN said:


> I'm in the market for a mountain bike or frame and some road bike parts (high-end wheelset). I need XL size.
> Mind you sharing his contact info? I'm in Chicago and will be able to pick it up in person to make life easier.


You want to make a 7 hour drive to the U.P. ?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Grodyman (Sep 29, 2016)

alexdi said:


> That's weak. I think a few things are working against you: it's the last year of the previous model, it's not a desirable brand (I blame Giant's marketing budget), and the local market is very thin for anything above $1500 regardless of the original price. That's doubly true with the inflation we've had recently (with a slight decrease in unadjusted income to go with it) that's hollowed out discretionary spending.
> 
> It's an awesome bike, though. I paid $2500 for the '20 Advanced Pro 2 model six months ago. Maestro is so, so good.


I also think the Large size is a negative, Mediums sell faster. I have never had a problem selling a Giant in the past.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Jolyzara said:


> Some bikes are still hard to find... bike companies will just slow down production and keep prices where they are. I doubt we will ever see a major drop in price without a major decline in component quality.


I've noticed certain levels of bikes that the price has remained the same but the components have been downgraded. Or same level bike with the usual components but the price is overly inflated. 

My current bike I purchased in 2020 for $5200 up until recently was listed at $6700. Now "on sale" for $6000

Crazy. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

Grodyman said:


> 2021 Giant Trance Advanced 29 Pro1 in Mint condition. List $5900, paid $5000, listed for $3500, offered $2000.
> 
> Yes, lowball. Just shows that the market has cooled considerably.


That's pretty low. Successful sales define market price, not unfilled bids (or unfilled asks). Good luck selling that sweet ride.


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## Redlemon (4 mo ago)

Local bike shop is loaded with MTBs that are not selling as fast as before, lots of high end Santa Cruz & Trek not selling. Used market is flooded with bikes and that is not helping.

Somes shops are having 15-20% sales on everything from time to time, one local shop have 20% off everything for the whole month of September.

SRAM is having 20-30% discount on some of their parts since a least 2 months and I saw lots of Trek Slash on discount, great deals! 

I think the worst is yet to come and we'll see a lot more sales.


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

I'm relatively new to mountain biking (about 4 years in now) so my observations are limited, but I've noticed that none of the big brands have really developed/released anything note worthy for analog bikes since covid. Fox and Rockshocks haven't done anything since the 38 and Zebb, nothing from shimano, sram put a GX logo on the AXS derailleur, ibis made an aluminum ripley (that is 4 or 5 years old now), and nothing really from Santa Cruz or Yeti. Maybe I was introduced to mtb at a time when things were evolving and have a skewed option?

On the other hand, those same companies (minus Ibis) have released at least 1 or 2 new products geared towards ebikes. Obviously covid had a major impact on the bike industry, but I think the real "threat" are the current and next generation ebikes. Seems like the technology is improving rapidly and becoming more appealing to the average rider, myself included. 

With all that said, I don't see how the used market doesn't become saturated in the next year or so. I would take what you can get for the Giant and move on. Easier said then done though I'm sure.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

trsmith4 said:


> I'm relatively new to mountain biking (about 4 years in now) so my observations are limited, but I've noticed that none of the big brands have really developed/released anything note worthy for analog bikes since covid. Fox and Rockshocks haven't done anything since the 38 and Zebb, nothing from shimano, sram put a GX logo on the AXS derailleur, ibis made an aluminum ripley (that is 4 or 5 years old now), and nothing really from Santa Cruz or Yeti. Maybe I was introduced to mtb at a time when things were evolving and have a skewed option?
> 
> On the other hand, those same companies (minus Ibis) have released at least 1 or 2 new products geared towards ebikes. Obviously covid had a major impact on the bike industry, but I think the real "threat" are the current and next generation ebikes. Seems like the technology is improving rapidly and becoming more appealing to the average rider, myself included.
> 
> With all that said, I don't see how the used market doesn't become saturated in the next year or so. I would take what you can get for the Giant and move on. Easier said then done though I'm sure.



Yeah I agree - as a fully certified gear queer I was used to a certain tempo of new products and designs. To a certain extent innovation goes in cycles and were in a down cycle. We spent the past 6 years getting the geo right I don't see how it can "get better" from here. I'm riding a 2019 Scott Ransom and I don't see anything in the market that seems better except I kind of like those Atherton bikes. But your point is spot on, not much new or different in the bike market, and all the R&D is going into mopeds.


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## beartraps (4 mo ago)

The enthusiasm for finding good sales and deals on bikes is encouraging.

However the grim reality is a global recession, massive inflation, market manipulation, global initiatives and related economic conditions that equate to rather unfavorable conditions when it comes to frivolous purchases like fancy bikes.

If that sounds vague and nebulous spend a few hours on zerohedge to get a sense of what is happening. Very bad times are upon us, socioeconomically. Plan accordingly.

If you can profit from someone else’s hardship, go for it, buy a used high end bike from someone that can’t afford basic utilities.


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## Roge (May 5, 2017)

About six weeks ago our shop bought two e-MTBs (major brand) previously sold to stores in Russia. We paid $400 each in freight to get them to our shop (I don't know if they actually had to be shipped from Russia, but it wasn't from Wisconsin). Amyhoo, it was a good business decision, these were high-end bikes and otherwise we couldn't have gotten them. We took a significant hit on margin, but it's better than nothing. As others have said, it's hit and miss of what you can get, but it's catching up.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

The bike inventory thing never really meant much to me, I got the parts I needed, didn’t want for anything, bought what I wanted, and sold what I wanted.

What I’m waiting on is the auto/truck inventory and pricing issues to settle down 😳


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Maybe you guys should stop looking at the Trek and Specialized websites for innovations, and research all of the really cool small brands out there that are making killer bikes. Trek and Specialized rarely innovate. They pick up on upcoming trends and push out a jillion bikes in the name of profit.

Plus bikes
Fat bikes
AM hardtails
Gravel bikes
Downhill bikes
….

The list goes on but all of those things were created by small brands and adopted by corporate companies.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Maybe you guys should stop looking at the Trek and Specialized websites for innovations, and research all of the really cool small brands out there that are making killer bikes. Trek and Specialized rarely innovate.


IDK, they are really good at making proprietary crap like knock-block, yoke/clevis shocks on specialized, DCRV or whatever that thing was Trek was doing, etc.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Jayem said:


> IDK, they are really good at making proprietary crap like knock-block, yoke/clevis shocks on specialized, DCRV or whatever that thing was Trek was doing, etc.


Fair enough… I forgot about the brain shock. Go Specialized 🙄


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Ebay/forum pricing on parts seems to have come back down to almost QBP pricing. That’s a change. (But it’s also fall)


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## norcalbike (Dec 17, 2004)

beartraps said:


> The enthusiasm for finding good sales and deals on bikes is encouraging.
> 
> However the grim reality is a global recession, massive inflation, market manipulation, global initiatives and related economic conditions that equate to rather unfavorable conditions when it comes to frivolous purchases like fancy bikes.
> 
> ...


lol Zerohedge is just fear porn.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

ljsmith said:


> You aren't giving the bike manufacturers enough credit. Once they design the new short, high and steep bikes and all the web sites and magazines say you will be the laughing stock at the trail head with those low long and slack bikes, everyone will rush to the stores to get the latest cutting edge geometry bikes. Add in a few more new standards like 1 1/3" fork steer tubes, 30" wheels, extra super boost and 15.2mm axles to make all your existing bikes obsolete and the sales problem is solved.


Problem solvers will have a field day!


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## mtbfree (Aug 20, 2015)

Hopefuly we reached the peak. No need for more crowded trails - already too many people on trails right now around here


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## Blue Dot Trail (May 30, 2018)

If it’s “peaked” than good. It was was downright ridiculous for awhile. Hopefully housing follows suit.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

mtbfree said:


> Hopefuly we reached the peak. No need for more crowded trails - already too many people on trails right now around here


Around here, in New England, we are well past the peak for crowds on trails. I would say they are back down to pre-pandemic levels.


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## Riccochet (4 mo ago)

My friend who owns a bike shop was telling me how sales have fallen off a cliff. He also has a lot of over priced inventory collecting dust. Shops weren't just charging a premium because they could, they had to since they were also paying a premium for their inventory. To push inventory he's been selling packages at nearly zero profit. Buy the bike and get some accessories included. Like a helmet, pedals, chamois, jersey. Like $300-400 worth of stuff thrown in. 

It's similar scenario in a lot of recreation industries. Boats, RV's, dirt bikes, quads, SxS's are all experiencing similar down turns in sales with reduction in used pricing. Now that people are going back to living their normal life their isolation toys are getting sold off. 

In some ways it sucks for those that make a living selling those items. For others, like me, who has been RV'ing, boating and riding for many years it's a blessing. It's been downright impossible to book RV sites for the past 2 years, trailhead parking lots were overflowing, lakes absolutely packed. Thankfully that's all easing up.


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## Dirtdiggler78 (6 mo ago)

In July of this year I couldn’t find anything that interested me at my LBS. I got pushed into a lesser spec bike than I wanted because I didn’t know any better and it’s what they had. Fast forward to late August and not only do they have bikes but they told me to trade in the one I just bought (for what I paid for it) and just pay the difference for the better spec’d bike I originally wanted. They had dozens of bikes on the floor and in boxes waiting to be assembled. It was crazy how many bikes they had.


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## ronhextall (Sep 13, 2015)

OneTrustMan said:


> I work part time for a bike shop that mainly sells Orbea.
> 
> I can confirm that the shop is hella packed and we still have over 50+ boxes with unbuilt bikes in the storage.
> 
> ...


I have been looking online for Orbea or Bianchi road/endurance bikes. The corporate websites basically all say there is nothing and I haven't found anything using some of their search tools.

It's encouraging to know things are loosening up. I won't be in the market until early 2023 so I haven't inquired directly with bike shops, but looking online at inventory you find next to nothing.

Also have seen some larger midwest bike shops advertise big sales, and from what I can tell they stocked up way too much on Ebikes and they are eating them. Some decent discounts of 20-30%

My small local shop that I go to for excellent mechanic work has said the manufactures won't allocate any bikes for them to sell because they can't commit to big inventories (Surly mainly). Hopefully this gestapo crap ends with demand sliding back to normal.


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## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

trsmith4 said:


> Maybe I was introduced to mtb at a time when things were evolving and have a skewed option?


IMO, you came into the golden age of equipment. No idea if this is where innovation basically stops/slows substantially, but these bikes are miles better than the early 90s when I started. Ironically, the golden age of participation felt like the early 90s, despite the horrible bikes by today's standards.


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## Jimmy Curry (Jul 12, 2021)

vikb said:


> Peak bicycle sales? Probably. Peak broped sales? Nope.
> 
> The problem with mountain bicycles is multi-fold:
> 
> ...


Broped??? Is that gonna be the newest dreamed up adjective to describe ebike riders? Sort of like "kit" is now widely used to describe a nice ensemble of gear, components, or attire. I refuse to use the dorky words.


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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

shakabra said:


> This is one product where it pays to shop from the European retailers and be patient with shipping.


Didn't know that. Name brand tires, Maxxis for example, are crazy expensive (USA).


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jimmy Curry said:


> Broped??? Is that gonna be the newest dreamed up adjective to describe ebike riders? Sort of like "kit" is now widely used to describe a nice ensemble of gear, components, or attire. I refuse to use the dorky words.


Noun


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## trek4fun_4308 (5 mo ago)

Prices are way too high. I have a 2017 Stumpjumper Expert with Eagle XO1. I have $4k in it. If I had to buy that bike today, it would cost me $7k and the only noticeable dif is more slack, same components, same tire, same bars, and comparable suspension, etc.

Wait 2 years and buy a used bike from someone who rode it once or twice and save 50%. You know this is coming. All those novices who got caught up in the pandemic bought a bike but it takes too much effort for them to get into shape to enjoy what they bought. My neighbor bought the top-of-the-line Santa Cruz High Tower and after two rides it has sat for at least a year.


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

Nat said:


> Noun


I don't get why ebike have such a bad name. If you can cover 20 miles in a ride vs 10 miles then that's twice the fun you had on a bicycle in the same amount of time. It also opens up a much wider market for potential mountain bikers. So if companies can sell twice the amount of bikes with the same level of R&D then that means manufacturing process can improve and thus lower production costs. Good for the consumer.

Whether you like ebikes or not, I think it's time to embrace them. There's nothing wrong with a person who doesn't live close to a bike park but still wants to get a lot of dh runs in. There's also nothing wrong with a 60 year old who needs a little motor help to push through an xc trail. In my opinion, ebikes might be the best thing to ever happen to mountain biking.


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## baitdragger (Feb 6, 2007)

Went to two LBS yesterday and both had bikes falling out the doors. One had $2,500 bikes laying on each other. And that shop said they remember when they had 3 bikes in the shop floor now they had 300+ and more in boxes in the back.
If I had to guess the shop buyers ordered whatever they could get. And it’s now coming in. Both shops were low on the $5k-$7k bikes. Had tons of $2,500 full suspension and quite a few $10k yetis, specialized Pro’s etc..

I wonder if these Shops simply ordered more of what didn’t sell well before the pandemic because that was what was available and thought the demand would never end and they would be sold like ice in the desert


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## vegen (Jan 2, 2006)

Jolyzara said:


> Car tires?


The last time I bought a Minion it cost $72. I need new tires for my car relatively soon; the ones I'm looking at are $86. Something seems out of whack there. Luckily I don't have to buy 4 Minions and also pay for installation!


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

trsmith4 said:


> I'm relatively new to mountain biking (about 4 years in now) so my observations are limited, but I've noticed that none of the big brands have really developed/released anything note worthy for analog bikes since covid. Fox and Rockshocks haven't done anything since the 38 and Zebb, nothing from shimano, sram put a GX logo on the AXS derailleur, ibis made an aluminum ripley (that is 4 or 5 years old now), and nothing really from Santa Cruz or Yeti. Maybe I was introduced to mtb at a time when things were evolving and have a skewed option?
> 
> On the other hand, those same companies (minus Ibis) have released at least 1 or 2 new products geared towards ebikes. Obviously covid had a major impact on the bike industry, but I think the real "threat" are the current and next generation ebikes. Seems like the technology is improving rapidly and becoming more appealing to the average rider, myself included.
> 
> With all that said, I don't see how the used market doesn't become saturated in the next year or so. I would take what you can get for the Giant and move on. Easier said then done though I'm sure.


I think part of the issue is that the high end parts listed above are all pretty damn good at this point and there is not much to gain upgrading. Some things were huge upgrades such as 1x and new geo for MTB's but there is much less must have game changing technology out there. All I want as someone who beats on and wears out equipment pretty quickly is better pricing on tires, chains, and cassettes.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

trsmith4 said:


> Rockshocks haven't done anything since the 38 and Zebb,


Well, if by nothing since the Zeb you mean they completely redid many of their forks and shocks with completely new designs.. I guess


----------



## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

trsmith4 said:


> I don't get why ebike have such a bad name. If you can cover 20 miles in a ride vs 10 miles then that's twice the fun you had on a bicycle in the same amount of time. It also opens up a much wider market for potential mountain bikers. So if companies can sell twice the amount of bikes with the same level of R&D then that means manufacturing process can improve and thus lower production costs. Good for the consumer.
> 
> Whether you like ebikes or not, I think it's time to embrace them. There's nothing wrong with a person who doesn't live close to a bike park but still wants to get a lot of dh runs in. There's also nothing wrong with a 60 year old who needs a little motor help to push through an xc trail. In my opinion, ebikes might be the best thing to ever happen to mountain biking.


No, its not time to embrace them. Save them for the commutes. I ride with plenty of 60 and even 70 year olds absolutely destroying climbs without ebikes (slower on downhills but no big deal). Most trails out here in CO with the exception of certain counties have banned ebikes and I fully support that. Trails are already so crowded and dangerous on weekends and peak times that adding extra riders is not going to help.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Jimmy Curry said:


> Broped??? Is that gonna be the newest dreamed up adjective to describe ebike riders? Sort of like "kit" is now widely used to describe a nice ensemble of gear, components, or attire. I refuse to use the dorky words.


Actually, it's the latest term to self-identify as an elitist douche-bag.

.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Oh ****. Another e-bike circle jerk.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

elder_mtber said:


> Didn't know that. Name brand tires, Maxxis for example, are crazy expensive (USA).


I've been using these on my bikes and they've been great so far.

DELIUM TIRES

You can get Specialized tires on sale too for good prices.


----------



## roadczar (Jun 17, 2007)

Have not seen any of this "peakeness" yet...


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

Porkchop_Power said:


> No, its not time to embrace them. Save them for the commutes. I ride with plenty of 60 and even 70 year olds absolutely destroying climbs without ebikes (slower on downhills but no big deal). Most trails out here in CO with the exception of certain counties have banned ebikes and I fully support that. Trails are already so crowded and dangerous on weekends and peak times that adding extra riders is not going to help.


I bet somebody will come up with the idea to build more trails. If the demand was not there then maybe not but sounds like it is out in Colorado. I live in Georgia though and overcrowding has never really been an issue to me other than the covid years.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

trsmith4 said:


> I bet somebody will come up with the idea to build more trails.


LOL. Why did I not think of doing that?


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## CNRed (Jul 25, 2021)

I believe bike sale have hit a slump, with new and used. 
I started buying, repairing (or rebuilding) Gary Fsher bikes about three years ago. During "pandemic times" when I was finsihed with a bike I could put it on line and if it lasted 5 days, that was a long time. Most bikes I was turning were in the $250 to $500 range. Some would be gone in a few hours after posting. Got to be a pretty nice hobby with repeat consumers and word of mouth advertising was keeping me quite busy. 
In the past few months I've had a very nice Fisher bike and a Very Rare Townie Balloon 9D on line. Both have been on line for over 30 days without as much as a call, a few people asking if the are still available but nothing further.
Bike I've had on line in the past wouls garner 45 to 60 people looking at the ad. These two have had 27 and11 respectively. 
A friend of mine owns a Local Bike Shop states his business is off as well.
Granted it is Summertime in Phoenix AZ, bike sales tail off a bit, but this is the worst Ive seen it. Im pretty new at this, but when I go to the sites I use to sell bikes, I see the same bikes day after day, not many moving.
I'm sure it will pick up a little when the temps go down, but for me the days of selling 6 or 7 bikes a week are most likely in the rear view mirror.


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

trsmith4 said:


> I don't get why ebike have such a bad name. If you can cover 20 miles in a ride vs 10 miles then that's twice the fun you had on a bicycle in the same amount of time. It also opens up a much wider market for potential mountain bikers. So if companies can sell twice the amount of bikes with the same level of R&D then that means manufacturing process can improve and thus lower production costs. Good for the consumer.
> 
> Whether you like ebikes or not, I think it's time to embrace them. There's nothing wrong with a person who doesn't live close to a bike park but still wants to get a lot of dh runs in. There's also nothing wrong with a 60 year old who needs a little motor help to push through an xc trail. In my opinion, ebikes might be the best thing to ever happen to mountain biking.


The main problem isn't the ebike itself, but people pretending it's a normal bike when it clearly isn't. 
Or the tuning bros with their unrestricted speed limits. 

Also I think it's unfair that in some countries ebikes get a tax credit so safe the environment lol, but not normal bikes that have a lower impact.


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

OneTrustMan said:


> The main problem isn't the ebike itself, but people pretending it's a normal bike when it clearly isn't.
> Or the tuning bros with their unrestricted speed limits.
> 
> Also I think it's unfair that in some countries ebikes get a tax credit so safe the environment lol, but not normal bikes that have a lower impact.


Why does it matter that they're pretending it's a normal bike? There really isn't that much difference and here soon you won't even be able to tell an ebike from a regular one.

As for the tax credits, I couldn't agree more. "Let's go mine a bunch of rare earth metals that use big heavy machinery that run on gas so we can strain the power grid even more so we can pat ourselves on the back saying we did our part." Even better though, "Lets let countries with less regulations produce oil and then ship it half way around the world so we can pay more for it."


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

It's a simpler calculation for me. They're not allowed on the trails I like to ride at this point. So I do not even give them consideration.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Maybe you guys should stop looking at the Trek and Specialized websites for innovations, and research all of the really cool small brands out there that are making killer bikes. Trek and Specialized rarely innovate. They pick up on upcoming trends and push out a jillion bikes in the name of profit.
> 
> Plus bikes
> Fat bikes
> ...


No other brand is making a bike like the supercaliber. That's innovation.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

trsmith4 said:


> Why does it matter that they're pretending it's a normal bike? There really isn't that much difference and here soon you won't even be able to tell an ebike from a regular one.
> 
> As for the tax credits, I couldn't agree more. "Let's go mine a bunch of rare earth metals that use big heavy machinery that run on gas so we can strain the power grid even more so we can pat ourselves on the back saying we did our part." Even better though, "Lets let countries with less regulations produce oil and then ship it half way around the world so we can pay more for it."


If "there really isn't much difference" and you can't tell the difference, then just ride a bicycle and save money and you won't waste time charging batteries.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

prj71 said:


> No other brand is making a bike like the supercaliber. That's innovation.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Yes they are. Maybe not in race form like the Supercaliber, but that suspension design is not unique to Trek. 
Digit Datum MTB Frame — Digit Bikes


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Based in my sample size of the two ebikes I saw while riding yesterday, I have concluded that all ebikes are poorly maintained. The first I could hear the chain squeaking from 100 yards away. The second, I listened to the brakes squeal from 1/2 mile away for 4 minutes on descent that takes 2 minutes for my slow self. Feeling bad for the second rider, I offered to lube his brakes. I figured it would help him chase better strava times.


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

chazpat said:


> If "there really isn't much difference" and you can't tell the difference, then just ride a bicycle and save money and you won't waste time charging batteries.


When I say there isn't much of a difference I'm talking about the bike overall. Other than a bigger downtube and going up hills faster, what is the difference? It's not like you're comparing a dirt bike to a mountain bike. I would also argue that spending $8k to make a regular bike lightweight isn't much different than spending $8k on an ebike.

When somebody passes me on an ebike I don't get mad or anything. They're doing the exact same thing as me, enjoying the day.


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## C Smasher (Apr 20, 2012)

trsmith4 said:


> Why does it matter that they're pretending it's a normal bike? There really isn't that much difference and here soon you won't even be able to tell an ebike from a regular one.


It matters because in northern utah people are now poaching trails on throttled ebikes, Some dont even have pedals. And there is no enforcement at all, and it will be almost impossible to enforce. Thats why.


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## Riccochet (4 mo ago)

I have no problem with class 1 ebikes. It's only pedal assist with no throttle. 

Keep the full throttle bikes off the trails.


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## roadczar (Jun 17, 2007)

C Smasher said:


> It matters because in northern utah people are now poaching trails on throttled ebikes, Some dont even have pedals. And there is no enforcement at all, and it will be almost impossible to enforce. Thats why.


I see same problems even on paved trails. I've had people passing me going close to 30mph. I have a feeling it will end as soon as some kid gets run over by one of these idiots.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

C Smasher said:


> It matters because in northern utah people are now poaching trails on throttled ebikes, Some dont even have pedals. And there is no enforcement at all, and it will be almost impossible to enforce. Thats why.


I have a solution, give up on land-use  It's the only way...

mostly because the self-entitled asshats are simply increasing daily.


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

trsmith4 said:


> I bet somebody will come up with the idea to build more trails. If the demand was not there then maybe not but sounds like it is out in Colorado. I live in Georgia though and overcrowding has never really been an issue to me other than the covid years.


The mountain resort towns are absolutely killing it with new trails. The area around Breck and Keystone must get 50 new miles a year.  Winter Park, Salida, Crested Butte, Eagle, etc. also add tons of trails regularly. Other mountain towns do well. Biggest issue is the riding season is like 4-5 months in the higher elevation towns. The issue is the Front Range where 90% of the population lives. Very little to ride around Denver / Boulder / Golden especially when you start dividing population by the miles of trail. When you add in hikers and horses it is VERY limited to the point where weekends are basically unrideable due to traffic. Getting anything built in Boulder or Golden is like a 20 year process. Luckily there are those who build really great trails with a lot of options and miles that are not sanctioned and most don't know about.

Just to give you an idea of how many riders are out here - the main Facebook (an NO ONE I know uses FB) trail page for the Denver area has 17,500 members. The two local high schools in Boulder each have almost 150 kids on their MTB race teams - more than baseball, soccer, and football combined.


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

C Smasher said:


> It matters because in northern utah people are now poaching trails on throttled ebikes, Some dont even have pedals. And there is no enforcement at all, and it will be almost impossible to enforce. Thats why.


I'm pretty sure a throttled ebike with no pedals is an electric dirtbike. Is it not? And that seems like a local issue that needs better enforcement. Not an e-mountain bike problem.


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## NC_Foothills_Rider (11 mo ago)

Riccochet said:


> I have no problem with class 1 ebikes. It's only pedal assist with no throttle.
> 
> Keep the full throttle bikes off the trails.


Was riding up a tough rooted climb at the end of a long day (for me). Looked back and saw 3 teenagers riding Rad e-bikes coming up on me. Not pedaling. It was startling at first.

Yeah I'm with you.


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

Porkchop_Power said:


> The mountain resort towns are absolutely killing it with new trails. The area around Breck and Keystone must get 50 new miles a year. Winter Park, Salida, Crested Butte, Eagle, etc. also add tons of trails regularly. Other mountain towns do well. Biggest issue is the riding season is like 4-5 months in the higher elevation towns. The issue is the Front Range where 90% of the population lives. Very little to ride around Denver / Boulder / Golden especially when you start dividing population by the miles of trail. When you add in hikers and horses it is VERY limited to the point where weekends are basically unrideable due to traffic. Getting anything built in Boulder or Golden is like a 20 year process. Luckily there are those who build really great trails with a lot of options and miles that are not sanctioned and most don't know about.
> 
> Just to give you an idea of how many riders are out here - the main Facebook (an NO ONE I know uses FB) trail page for the Denver area has 17,500 members. The two local high schools in Boulder each have almost 150 kids on their MTB race teams - more than baseball, soccer, and football combined.


I guess it could simply be a location issue. Seems like the people against it live by real mountains. I'm in Atlanta so the number of bike riders is far less. I definitely hate coming up on hikers and horse back riders but most of our trails are bike only trails so I have no problem sharing the trail with ebikes.


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## Grodyman (Sep 29, 2016)

This an ebike thread now??


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Don't all threads become ebike threads eventually?


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Yes they are. Maybe not in race form like the Supercaliber, but that suspension design is not unique to Trek.
> Digit Datum MTB Frame — Digit Bikes


Yeah. Not the same. That thing won't be setting any sales records.

Mullet bike, no carbon frame option and proprietary shock system. You're average bike person isn't going to want to deal with maintenance on that shock and neither will the local bike shop. At least when shock maintenance needs to be done on the Trek you can bring it in to the local Trek dealer for service.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## C Smasher (Apr 20, 2012)

trsmith4 said:


> I'm pretty sure a throttled ebike with no pedals is an electric dirtbike. Is it not? And that seems like a local issue that needs better enforcement. Not an e-mountain bike problem.


Agree, but some of the emotos looks so similar to ebikes that they can get away with it.

On enforcement - I dont see the forest service, sheriffs, and local city trail systems police patrolling hundreds of miles of trails near SLC any time soon.

Back to the peak in MTB sales!


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## C Smasher (Apr 20, 2012)

dysfunction said:


> I have a solution, give up on land-use  It's the only way...
> 
> mostly because the self-entitled asshats are simply increasing daily.


I will be getting an emoto on that day! jk...


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## avlfj40 (Jul 14, 2008)

I'm pretty sure that most shops that have been in business a decent amount of time would not have over extended themselves on preorders based off the COVID bubble.

I just bought a new 2021 Trek Checkpoint AXS at a huge discount. Shop said it had been on the floor for over a year.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Grodyman said:


> This an ebike thread now??


Well it is the Godwin’s law of MTBR.

I miss the good old days, arguing about flat v. riser bars and how people would die with their ghetto tubeless setups.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Cary said:


> Well it is the Godwin’s law of MTBR.
> 
> I miss the good old days, arguing about flat v. riser bars and how people would die with their ghetto tubeless setups.


Most of those people are dead now. The rest were killed by disc brakes.


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## baker (Jan 6, 2004)

dysfunction said:


> Don't all threads become ebike threads eventually?


Pretty much. Has become ridiculous...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Yes they are. Maybe not in race form like the Supercaliber, but that suspension design is not unique to Trek.
> Digit Datum MTB Frame — Digit Bikes


No, that is not like the supercaliber, there are several structural and design differences, except there is another company out there borrowing the supercalibers design almost entirely, but with rails.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

trsmith4 said:


> I'm pretty sure a throttled ebike with no pedals is an electric dirtbike. Is it not? And that seems like a local issue that needs better enforcement. Not an e-mountain bike problem.


Thats the chicken and the egg problem, when the cat is out of the bag and the bikes are so numerous, easy to buy, easy to operate, etc., its not possible to enforce anymore, the resources dont exist at that level, nor would they ever. The only way this would have been avoided is by a combined approach that has adequate regulation of manufacturers, design, use, licensing, etc.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

The problem with difficulties of enforcement is that it generally results in the easiest solution for law enforcement. Generally speaking, this equals a wholesale ban.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

prj71 said:


> Yeah. Not the same. That thing won't be setting any sales records.
> 
> Mullet bike, no carbon frame option and proprietary shock system. You're average bike person isn't going to want to deal with maintenance on that shock and neither will the local bike shop. At least when shock maintenance needs to be done on the Trek you can bring it in to the local Trek dealer for service.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk





Jayem said:


> No, that is not like the supercaliber, there are several structural and design differences, except there is another company out there borrowing the supercalibers design almost entirely, but with rails.


At their core it’s the same kind of design. Both use the frame as part of the shock design…


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

Jayem said:


> Thats the chicken and the egg problem, when the cat is out of the bag and the bikes are so numerous, easy to buy, easy to operate, etc., its not possible to enforce anymore, the resources dont exist at that level, nor would they ever. The only way this would have been avoided is by a combined approach that has adequate regulation of manufacturers, design, use, licensing, etc.


I don't see why it would be that difficult. If you had a couple park rangers out on the trail every now then giving out tickets to electric dirt bike riders they would begin to find other places to ride. If there are no trails being built for their use then electric dirt bikes sales would decline. Trying to regulate manufactures would only lead to more costs and would never work.


----------



## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

dysfunction said:


> Don't all threads become ebike threads eventually?


That's what happens after a thread peaks. Eventually it'll need strapped down.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

trsmith4 said:


> I don't see why it would be that difficult. If you had a couple park rangers out on the trail


That would be a lot of rangers


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Nat said:


> That would be a lot of rangers


I'm gonna guess that the sheer scale of the west is lost. It is on most that haven't experienced it.


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

Nat said:


> That would be a lot of rangers


Not really. I bet one ranger could handle 20 miles of trail. And it's not like they have to constantly be patrolling. Just enough to write a few tickets so those people can go tell their friends, "Hey they're giving out tickets there now"


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

trsmith4 said:


> When I say there isn't much of a difference I'm talking about the bike overall. Other than a bigger downtube and going up hills faster, what is the difference?


uh, maybe the motor?



trsmith4 said:


> When somebody passes me on an ebike I don't get mad or anything. They're doing the exact same thing as me, enjoying the day.


I don't either. But propelling a bike by oneself and propelling a bike with the assistance of a motor are not the same thing and pretending they are is just silly, almost seems like the ebiker isn't 100% happy with what they are doing.

Now if someone on a regular bike passes me…


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

prj71 said:


> Most of those people are dead now. The rest were killed by disc brakes.


You reminded me of the arguments that v brakes were superior to disc brakes because they clamped on the much larger rim and therefor could generate much more torque.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

trsmith4 said:


> I guess it could simply be a location issue. Seems like the people against it live by real mountains. I'm in Atlanta so the number of bike riders is far less. I definitely hate coming up on hikers and horse back riders but most of our trails are bike only trails so I have no problem sharing the trail with ebikes.


You must be new to hitting the trails around Atlanta, way more people than a few years ago. Where are you riding that are bike only? Other than some of the downhill runs, most trails are multi-use, though on a lot bikes have the right of way. Ebikes probably make more sense where there are real mountains rather than the foothills on the north side of Atlanta.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

trsmith4 said:


> Not really. I bet one ranger could handle 20 miles of trail. And it's not like they have to constantly be patrolling. Just enough to write a few tickets so those people can go tell their friends, "Hey they're giving out tickets there now"


Dude, seriously? Have you been out west?


----------



## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

dysfunction said:


> I'm gonna guess that the sheer scale of the west is lost. It is on most that haven't experienced it.


I remember being shocked when asking in Cleveland Ohio how far it was to Pittsburgh, PA it was, as had to get there and our connecting flight was cancelled. I must have 10 people who all said really far, but could give me nothing more concrete. Finally someone said a few hours (this was before wifi and smart phones). It was 135 miles!! Heck, I day trip to Downieville and Tahoe to ride, 350-380 miles round trip. Very different worlds.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

trsmith4 said:


> Not really. I bet one ranger could handle 20 miles of trail. And it's not like they have to constantly be patrolling. Just enough to write a few tickets so those people can go tell their friends, "Hey they're giving out tickets there now"


Where are you riding that has rangers besides Sope Creek?


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

Nat said:


> Dude seriously? Have you been out west?


I've been to eastern Idaho/western Wyoming but that's been it for biking. I just feel like each county/city should be responsible for enforcing trail rules (if it's even a problem in the area) and it wouldn't be that difficult. You would obviously never catch everyone but the dirt bike riders would definitely thin out.


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

chazpat said:


> Where are you riding that has rangers besides Sope Creek?


I never said any of the places I ride has rangers. But I know Big Creek has bike police there every now and then. I use to take my dog riding with me and they told me on the trail I couldn't do that. Now I don't take my dog riding with me. What a concept.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

trsmith4 said:


> I've been to eastern Idaho/western Wyoming but that's been it for biking. I just feel like each county/city should be responsible for enforcing trail rules (if it's even a problem in the area) and it wouldn't be that difficult. You would obviously never catch everyone but the dirt bike riders would definitely thin out.


It's probably low on their list of important things to enforce. Really low.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

trsmith4 said:


> I don't see why it would be that difficult. If you had a couple park rangers out on the trail every now then giving out tickets to electric dirt bike riders they would begin to find other places to ride. If there are no trails being built for their use then electric dirt bikes sales would decline. Trying to regulate manufactures would only lead to more costs and would never work.


You have no idea how strapped these agencies are then. Also, we are talking trails on a variety of lands managed by various federal and state agencies. Municipalities, state forests, state parks, state DNR, BLM, national forests, national park service.

Its simply not possible to enforce at the level that would create a situation where a perp would likely get caught.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

trsmith4 said:


> Not really. I bet one ranger could handle 20 miles of trail. And it's not like they have to constantly be patrolling. Just enough to write a few tickets so those people can go tell their friends, "Hey they're giving out tickets there now"


Thats like one trail, lol.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> Thats like one trail, lol.


Now to find the budget to hire 50,000 more rangers...


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

Jayem said:


> Thats like one trail, lol.


I think you western girls are exaggerating the problem. There is no way you can have that many trails to ride and still feel like there are too many electric dirt bikes. If you were running into them all the time then so would the rangers. All the city would need to do is tell the rangers to start giving out warnings or tickets one day a week.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

trsmith4 said:


> I think you western girls are exaggerating the problem. There is no way you can have that many trails to ride and still feel like there are too many electric dirt bikes. If you were running into them all the time then so would the rangers. All the city would need to do is tell the rangers to start giving out warnings or tickets one day a week.


Silly


----------



## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

Man e-bikes are as bad as politics. One mention and the whole thread goes to ****.


----------



## FoghornLegburn (Sep 3, 2008)

Porkchop_Power said:


> The mountain resort towns are absolutely killing it with new trails. The area around Breck and Keystone must get 50 new miles a year. Winter Park, Salida, Crested Butte, Eagle, etc. also add tons of trails regularly. Other mountain towns do well. Biggest issue is the riding season is like 4-5 months in the higher elevation towns. The issue is the Front Range where 90% of the population lives. Very little to ride around Denver / Boulder / Golden especially when you start dividing population by the miles of trail. When you add in hikers and horses it is VERY limited to the point where weekends are basically unrideable due to traffic. Getting anything built in Boulder or Golden is like a 20 year process. Luckily there are those who build really great trails with a lot of options and miles that are not sanctioned and most don't know about.
> 
> Just to give you an idea of how many riders are out here - the main Facebook (an NO ONE I know uses FB) trail page for the Denver area has 17,500 members. The two local high schools in Boulder each have almost 150 kids on their MTB race teams - more than baseball, soccer, and football combined.


The Denver area has nearly 3 million people, of whom I assume about 5-10% mountain bike (and at least that many who use the trails overall). 17,500 of these people are passionate (and old) enough to use FB to discuss mountain biking. Yet only ~1500 contribute to the local trails organization who builds and maintains all these trails. This is one of the challenges of building more trails.

That said, I split time between Golden and Summit County and feel like the Front Range is investing in far more bike-friendly terrain than Summit, in part because the membership of the trails org is Summit is only a fraction of that of COMBA on the Front Range.

Just a friendly reminder that the best way to influence more trails is to get involved with your local trails org, even if just by donating $5/month.


----------



## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

Jayem said:


> You have no idea how strapped these agencies are then. Also, we are talking trails on a variety of lands managed by various federal and state agencies. Municipalities, state forests, state parks, state DNR, BLM, national forests, national park service.
> 
> Its simply not possible to enforce at the level that would create a situation where a perp would likely get caught.


I could see where the land agencies would come into play. You would definitely need a person who knew who to talk to. Just comes down to whether or not it's an actual problem or just a few people not wanting to share the trails.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Jayem said:


> Thats like one trail, lol.


Not even. Tucson alone would need like... 40 new, dedicated, rangers.

ooops my math was way off. Just mountain bike, 939 trails and 1,771 miles of trails.. so almost 90.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

trsmith4 said:


> I never said any of the places I ride has rangers. But I know Big Creek has bike police there every now and then. I use to take my dog riding with me and they told me on the trail I couldn't do that. Now I don't take my dog riding with me. What a concept.


I've ridden multiple times a year at Big Creek for the last 15 years and never seen any type of bike police (I have no idea who that would have been). In fact, I'm planning on riding there this evening, though mostly on the greenway on my CX (I hit the beginner trails on my CX while I"m there). It is a city park, I think; if not then a county park as are most of the trail systems around us. The counties do not have rangers.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

93EXCivic said:


> Man e-bikes are as bad as politics. One mention and the whole thread goes to ****.


Make sure you take note of who made the first mention. It wasn't an "ebike guy".

Post #9



vikb said:


> Peak bicycle sales? Probably. Peak broped sales? Nope.
> 
> The problem with mountain bicycles is multi-fold:
> 
> ...


.


----------



## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

dysfunction said:


> Not even. Tucson alone would need like... 40 new, dedicated, rangers.
> 
> ooops my math was way off. Just mountain bike, 939 trails and 1,771 miles of trails.. so almost 90.


No you wouldn't. Each 20 miles of trail would only need one ranger per week for maybe a couple of hours at a time. So divide 90 by 7 and then divide that by 4. I think that equates to 3.21 rangers for Tuscon. Let's go ahead and round it up to 5 though incase one needs back up.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I have to ask:

*Have we reached the peak?*


----------



## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

chazpat said:


> I've ridden multiple times a year at Big Creek for the last 15 years and never seen any type of bike police (I have no idea who that would have been). In fact, I'm planning on riding there this evening, though mostly on the greenway on my CX (I hit the beginner trails on my CX while I"m there). It is a city park, I think; if not then a county park as are most of the trail systems around us. The counties do not have rangers.


I ride my bike from my house to the Big Creek trails. Those are my everyday riding trails and I do see police there every now and then. They usually park at the lower lot.


----------



## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

chazpat said:


> I have to ask:
> 
> *Have we reached the peak?*


Not until the ebike rider’s batteries run dry and the regular riders bonk.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

trsmith4 said:


> I ride my bike from my house to the Big Creek trails. Those are my everyday riding trails and I do see police there every now and then. They usually park at the lower lot.


I'm guessing they were Roswell City Police? I doubt they are actually out on the trails much at all but I guess they could say something if they saw you in the parking lot. Join RAMBO and I'm sure they'll let you know who or how to properly police the trails.

And back on topic: I purchased some spds the other day online and most places were out of stock, expecting them back in toward the end of the month.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

trsmith4 said:


> I ride my bike from my house to the Big Creek trails. Those are my everyday riding trails and I do see police there every now and then. They usually park at the lower lot.


What do you think they might be looking for? Trailhead break-ins? Drug crimes? Vandalism? Prostitution?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Nat said:


> What do you think they might be looking for? Trailhead break-ins? Drug crimes? Vandalism? Prostitution?


woohoo! Can't wait to get there this evening!


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

chazpat said:


> woohoo! Can't wait to get there this evening!


Party at Chazpat's!


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

chazpat said:


> I have to ask:
> 
> *Have we reached the peak?*


See page 1


----------



## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

Nat said:


> What do you think they might be looking for? Trailhead break-ins? Drug crimes? Vandalism? Prostitution?


No they started showing up after a woman was murdered in Piedmont park in Atlanta. It was a brutal stabbing and the killer was never found. It was a big story in Atlanta and still kind of is. After that they were there almost everyday. I don't see them as much anymore but every now and then I see them riding along the greenway right by the trail. The greenway gets pretty isolated so my guess is they patrol it for robberies and stuff. May sound stupid but I'm sure the women who walk and run around there appreciate it.


----------



## Riccochet (4 mo ago)

this thread sure is different .....



... but kinda the same!


----------



## mfiles (Sep 19, 2007)

vikb said:


> Peak bicycle sales? Probably. Peak broped sales? Nope.
> 
> The problem with mountain bicycles is multi-fold:
> 
> ...


Not all people who want eMTBs are lazy. Just so you know.


----------



## froze93309 (6 mo ago)

Bike sales will drop dramatically over the next few months and stay down as the economy worldwide is set to collapse for many years. All those expensive tech ideas for bikes, like electronic shifting, disk brakes, disk brakes with ABS, sales will dwindle down to almost nothing, which will probably mean Campy and SRAM will die, Microshift could survive since they sell less expensive components, Shimano is the wild card, they're so huge they could absorb the hits, but barely, and they could eliminate the expensive components and go back to basics, anyone selling bling components is gone, most bike manufactures will be gone.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

froze93309 said:


> Bike sales will drop dramatically over the next few months and stay down as the economy worldwide is set to collapse for many years. All those expensive tech ideas for bikes, like electronic shifting, disk brakes, disk brakes with ABS, sales will dwindle down to almost nothing, which will probably mean Campy and SRAM will die, Microshift could survive since they sell less expensive components, Shimano is the wild card, they're so huge they could absorb the hits, but barely, and they could eliminate the expensive components and go back to basics, anyone selling bling components is gone, most bike manufactures will be gone.


Might as well just throw in a nuclear war while you're at it.


----------



## froze93309 (6 mo ago)

dysfunction said:


> Might as well just throw in a nuclear war while you're at it.


Obviously, that isn't off the table.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

froze93309 said:


> Obviously, that isn't off the table.


For my entire life. Just like the collapse of western civilization. Over and over and over. Yet, here we are... and I NEVER saw the tanks come across Fulda either.


----------



## froze93309 (6 mo ago)

dysfunction said:


> For my entire life. Just like the collapse of western civilization. Over and over and over. Yet, here we are... and I NEVER saw the tanks come across Fulda either.


I'm not going to say you're wrong, because I could be wrong, but I've been reading enough from all sorts of sources saying it's coming, and to expect it within the next few months, some predicting September the 23 or 24th of this year, we'll see. But if Russia gets angry with Ukraine because of the loses they're taking on the battlefield and decides to launch tactical nukes to even the score, well, game over right then and there.

People for many many years never saw Russian tanks coming into Ukraine either, so your point is not valid. Anything can happen at any time. We never expected in our wildest dreams that we would be attacked the way we were on 9/11 either, but yet we were. Again, anything can happen at any time.


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

prj71 said:


> Talked to to friend over the weekend that owns a bike shop in Michigan. He told me his floor of full of bikes that aren't selling and his warehouse is full of bikes yet to be built. He had to tell his shop manager to quit ordering bikes.
> 
> Anyone else hearing or seeing the same?


is crank bros eggbeater 11 worth it?


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

froze93309 said:


> I'm not going to say you're wrong, because I could be wrong, but I've been reading enough from all sorts of sources saying it's coming, and to expect it within the next few months, some predicting September the 23 or 24th of this year, we'll see. But if Russia gets angry with Ukraine because of the loses they're taking on the battlefield and decides to launch tactical nukes to even the score, well, game over right then and there.
> 
> People for many many years never saw Russian tanks coming into Ukraine either, so your point is not valid. Anything can happen at any time. We never expected in our wildest dreams that we would be attacked the way we were on 9/11 either, but yet we were. Again, anything can happen at any time.


Anything can happen, that's true, but life's gotta suck when focused solely on the negative.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Well if all the economies collapse, won't bikes have a lot of value since no one will be able to afford gasoline for their car?


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

chazpat said:


> Well if all the economies collapse, won't bikes have a lot of value since no one will be able to afford gasoline for their car?


DId you notice that in The Walking Dead it took them TEN seasons to finally realize the usefulness of bicycles? Always scavenging for gasoline for some reason.


----------



## C Smasher (Apr 20, 2012)

froze93309 said:


> Bike sales will drop dramatically over the next few months and stay down as the economy worldwide is set to collapse for many years. All those expensive tech ideas for bikes, like electronic shifting, disk brakes, disk brakes with ABS, sales will dwindle down to almost nothing, which will probably mean Campy and SRAM will die, Microshift could survive since they sell less expensive components, Shimano is the wild card, they're so huge they could absorb the hits, but barely, and they could eliminate the expensive components and go back to basics, anyone selling bling components is gone, most bike manufactures will be gone.


SRAM will die? haha lmao.


----------



## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

froze93309 said:


> I'm not going to say you're wrong, because I could be wrong, but I've been reading enough from all sorts of sources saying it's coming, and to expect it within the next few months, some predicting September the 23 or 24th of this year, we'll see. But if Russia gets angry with Ukraine because of the loses they're taking on the battlefield and decides to launch tactical nukes to even the score, well, game over right then and there.


Uh, nope. There were more than 2,000 nuclear tests, some of which were absolutely huge. A few tactical nukes is a blip compared to that, and you can always outfit your bike with Nukeproof components.

23rd or 24th, you say? That is next week. This reminds me of the time Oral Roberts saw a 900 foot Jesus who was going to call him home if he didn't raise enough money. You have not seen a 900 foot Alex Jones, have you?


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Well, I survived all the drug dealers, prostitutes, thieves and bike police. Parking lots were packed when I got there; I was the last one to leave. As I commonly do, rode too far out and ended up riding in the dark on the way back with nothing but a warning light and even that died. Last time I rode there in the dark almost ran over this guy (had a bit better light that evening):










Some guy on an eskateboard nearly blinded me, I had to just about stop and lowered my head so my visor blocked the light until he passed.


----------



## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

Porkchop_Power said:


> The mountain resort towns are absolutely killing it with new trails. The area around Breck and Keystone must get 50 new miles a year. Winter Park, Salida, Crested Butte, Eagle, etc. also add tons of trails regularly. Other mountain towns do well. Biggest issue is the riding season is like 4-5 months in the higher elevation towns. The issue is the Front Range where 90% of the population lives. Very little to ride around Denver / Boulder / Golden especially when you start dividing population by the miles of trail. When you add in hikers and horses it is VERY limited to the point where weekends are basically unrideable due to traffic. Getting anything built in Boulder or Golden is like a 20 year process. Luckily there are those who build really great trails with a lot of options and miles that are not sanctioned and most don't know about.
> 
> Just to give you an idea of how many riders are out here - the main Facebook (an NO ONE I know uses FB) trail page for the Denver area has 17,500 members. The two local high schools in Boulder each have almost 150 kids on their MTB race teams - more than baseball, soccer, and football combined.


On the front range, do race organizers get to reserve trails so you can actually race? Here in the midwest it's not so crowded that you need to close the trail to other users to hold a race, and we usually keep horses and cyclists on separate trails.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> and you can always outfit your bike with Nukeproof components.


QFT!


----------



## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

trsmith4 said:


> Why does it matter that they're pretending it's a normal bike? There really isn't that much difference and here soon you won't even be able to tell an ebike from a regular one.


Uhm, please show me any other non ebike that is capable of bringing unfit people on masses to mountain summits?

You can give an unfit person the lightest most expensive 25k normal bike on this planet. It doesn't matter. If someone lacks the fitness no amount of fancy expensive bike parts will get that person up a mountain.

But give the same person any cheap 1k to 2k ebike and it becomes any easy feat.
That is the huge difference of having an motor so please stop pretending an ebike is a bike.

The mountains I climb on my bike are crowded now with all kinds of different people on ebikes that never ever would be up their if it wasn't for the motor.

I'm not hating on ebikes, I have an emtb myself, but I don't pretend it's a normal bike.


----------



## mtbfree (Aug 20, 2015)

Moderators please lock the thread - its gone for sure into bike vs e-moped off-topic way too far


----------



## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Uh, nope. There were more than 2,000 nuclear tests, some of which were absolutely huge. A few tactical nukes is a blip compared to that, and you can always outfit your bike with Nukeproof components.
> 
> 23rd or 24th, you say? That is next week. This reminds me of the time Oral Roberts saw a 900 foot Jesus who was going to call him home if he didn't raise enough money. You have not seen a 900 foot Alex Jones, have you?


People need to stop reading so much doom porn.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

trsmith4 said:


> No they started showing up after a woman was murdered in Piedmont park in Atlanta. It was a brutal stabbing and the killer was never found. It was a big story in Atlanta and still kind of is. After that they were there almost everyday. I don't see them as much anymore but every now and then I see them riding along the greenway right by the trail. The greenway gets pretty isolated so my guess is they patrol it for robberies and stuff. May sound stupid but I'm sure the women who walk and run around there appreciate it.


I feel as if asking the police officers to also be on the lookout for illicit ebike use in addition to armed robbers and murderers would be met with a head shake and a facepalm.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

vikb said:


> Peak bicycle sales? Probably. Peak broped sales? Nope.
> 
> The problem with mountain bicycles is multi-fold:
> 
> ...





froze93309 said:


> I'm not going to say you're wrong, because I could be wrong, but I've been reading enough from all sorts of sources saying it's coming, and to expect it within the next few months, some predicting September the 23 or 24th of this year, we'll see. But if Russia gets angry with Ukraine because of the loses they're taking on the battlefield and decides to launch tactical nukes to even the score, well, game over right then and there.
> 
> People for many many years never saw Russian tanks coming into Ukraine either, so your point is not valid. Anything can happen at any time. We never expected in our wildest dreams that we would be attacked the way we were on 9/11 either, but yet we were. Again, anything can happen at any time.


Never could have imagined 9/11? You need to re-watch Fight Club, and pay particular attention to the end. Also take note of what the film had to say about the role of men in society, and how that's playing out present day.


.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

mtbfree said:


> Moderators please lock the thread - its gone for sure into bike vs e-moped off-topic way too far


Realistically the poster who first mentioned e-bikes may not be wrong and I can see how it ended up in this thread.

240 percent surge in e-bike sales may be the reason some bikes shops are overloaded with regular pedal bikes. So e-bike discussion is not totally out of line in this thread.









The E-bike Is a Monstrosity


Neither bicycle nor motorbike, the two-wheeler’s future demands an identity of its own.




www.theatlantic.com


----------



## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

trsmith4 said:


> I don't see why it would be that difficult. If you had a couple park rangers out on the trail every now then giving out tickets to electric dirt bike riders they would begin to find other places to ride.


Park rangers? I live in the most densely populated state in the country. We have tons of local cops...too many. Park rangers? I've seen more bald eagles here than I've seen park rangers.

Edit: Never mind, I see this issue has been raised in other posts. Not trying to pile on.


----------



## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

trsmith4 said:


> I think you western girls are exaggerating the problem. There is no way you can have that many trails to ride and still feel like there are too many electric dirt bikes. If you were running into them all the time then so would the rangers. All the city would need to do is tell the rangers to start giving out warnings or tickets one day a week.


Most of the massive miles of trail in CO are way up in the mountains and some are only rideable 90 days a summer. Its the stuff closer to Denver and the Front Range where the problem is.


----------



## NC_Foothills_Rider (11 mo ago)

dysfunction said:


> For my entire life. Just like the collapse of western civilization. Over and over and over. Yet, here we are... and I NEVER saw the tanks come across Fulda either.


These days discernment is a very important and useful skill.


----------



## NC_Foothills_Rider (11 mo ago)

chazpat said:


> Well if all the economies collapse, won't bikes have a lot of value since no one will be able to afford gasoline for their car?


Gravel bikes (light, simple, tough) and hard tail MTBs if not SS become the new kings of the rapidly deteriorating roads.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

93EXCivic said:


> Man e-bikes are as bad as politics. One mention and the whole thread goes to ****.


That's because us cyclists get annoyed by them.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Crankout said:


> That's because us cyclists get annoyed by them.


I blame the evangelists who don't understand that not everything is about THEM.


----------



## dugt (May 26, 2012)

trsmith4 said:


> I think you western girls are exaggerating the problem. There is no way you can have that many trails to ride and still feel like there are too many electric dirt bikes. If you were running into them all the time then so would the rangers. All the city would need to do is tell the rangers to start giving out warnings or tickets one day a week.


In my 10 years of riding my ATV and my mt bike in the Tahoe Forest area, I have only seen two rangers and they were both in trucks on fire roads. The rangers in California are employed by the California Department of Parks and Recreation, not cities. There are thousands of miles of trails in the Tahoe, Truckee area.


----------



## dugt (May 26, 2012)

Reading about the e-mtb vs mtb posts here reminds me of similar conflicts.
Snowboarding vs Skiing
Fat skis vs skinny skis
Long surfboards vs short boards
Windsurfing vs Kitesurfing
horses vs Mt bikes

Humans are clannish (cult) pack animals and don't like outsiders (Non-conformists). Eventually, we all learn to get along, except the murderers.


----------



## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Pedal assist only ebike is perfectly fine. They are normally ridden by experienced cyclists of decent fitness and skill.
The problem is the throttled ebike ridden by newbies who have no idea how to effectively scrub the higher speeds they have generated. COVID19 brought on a whole slew of stimulus rich, work at home new bikers on the trail. The trails are getting packed and trashed by novices.


----------



## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

dysfunction said:


> I blame the evangelists who don't understand that not everything is about THEM.


Yeah the bible teaches them not to be sharing or companionate towards other. Always put themselves first.

Meanwhile, people on the other side get outraged and cancels anybody with a differing opinion. If .001% of men want to be a woman and they can't use the girls bathroom and play girl sports then it's everybody elses fault. 

Hopefully you were kidding.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

trsmith4 said:


> Yeah the bible teaches them not to be sharing or companionate towards other. Always put themselves first.
> 
> Meanwhile, people on the other side get outraged and cancels anybody with a differing opinion. If .001% of men want to be a woman and they can't use the girls bathroom and play girl sports then it's everybody elses fault.
> 
> Hopefully you were kidding.


I realized a long time ago it doesn't affect me one bit who someone else marries or what bathroom they use.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

trsmith4 said:


> Yeah the bible teaches them not to be sharing or companionate towards other. Always put themselves first.
> 
> Meanwhile, people on the other side get outraged and cancels anybody with a differing opinion. If .001% of men want to be a woman and they can't use the girls bathroom and play girl sports then it's everybody elses fault.
> 
> Hopefully you were kidding.


Ahhh you totally missed my point, and alternate definitions of that word.


----------



## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

dysfunction said:


> Ahhh you totally missed my point, and alternate definitions of that word.


My bad, I'm sorry.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Porkchop_Power said:


> Most of the massive miles of trail in CO are way up in the mountains and some are only rideable 90 days a summer. Its the stuff closer to Denver and the Front Range where the problem is.


Problem? All of Jeffco and all Colorado state parks are open to class 1 ebikes, have been for years, and the land managers themselves have gone out of their way to say they've presented no problems. Zero.


.


----------



## norcalbike (Dec 17, 2004)

this one really went off the rails


----------



## froze93309 (6 mo ago)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Uh, nope. There were more than 2,000 nuclear tests, some of which were absolutely huge. A few tactical nukes is a blip compared to that, and you can always outfit your bike with Nukeproof components.
> 
> 23rd or 24th, you say? That is next week. This reminds me of the time Oral Roberts saw a 900 foot Jesus who was going to call him home if he didn't raise enough money. You have not seen a 900 foot Alex Jones, have you?


I didn't say that, some economic guys said that, including the Chancellor of Germany, they're the ones seeing a 900 foot tall Jesus or Alex Jones.


----------



## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Doomscrolling mixed with another ebike debate… if anything has reached its peak, it’s this thread.


----------



## ZiggsterZaskar (Jul 25, 2021)

trsmith4 said:


> I don't get why ebike have such a bad name. If you can cover 20 miles in a ride vs 10 miles then that's twice the fun you had on a bicycle in the same amount of time. It also opens up a much wider market for potential mountain bikers. So if companies can sell twice the amount of bikes with the same level of R&D then that means manufacturing process can improve and thus lower production costs. Good for the consumer.
> 
> Whether you like ebikes or not, I think it's time to embrace them. There's nothing wrong with a person who doesn't live close to a bike park but still wants to get a lot of dh runs in. There's also nothing wrong with a 60 year old who needs a little motor help to push through an xc trail. In my opinion, ebikes might be the best thing to ever happen to mountain biking.


Like it or not E-bikes ARE THE BIGGEST THREAT to not only traditional mountain biking but mountain biking in general. Why does it seem that I am the only one that recognizes this fact: Riding a bike is hard not only physically but maybe even more so mentally. The hardest part about riding a bike be it road or mnt is pedaling uphill. That is what keeps the posers and people who would never even consider throwing a leg over a bike....believe I have tried numerous times to get family and friends into mnt. biking who don't even try even at a beginner level or make a handful or less attempts and give up. And I am not taking them on hell rides either but, very beginner easy paced rides where at times I follow them at there pace. My point that you may be asking is this. As frustrating as it it to see them give up the fact is that's less people on our already over crowded trails. Taking the "work and earning your way" to the next level out of the equation by purchasing an E-bike to ride on people powered trails singletrack does nothing but open the floodgates to more people on our already overcrowded trails with questionable if, any trail ediquite. It's been a long hard battle to find common ground with hikers and horse riders to finally accept and respect each other but, even though traditional bikers are still at times the scapegoat for abuse and overcrowding on trails in more populated areas. E-bikes in this scenario, if they haven't already will put the nail in the coffin scenarios like this. E-bikes especially the class three bikes (the more powerful and moto oriented if I'm not mistaken of the three classes) will just set us going backwards....I have already had numerous encounters mostly with young punks, not only mtn biking but even on walking trails when walking my dog. I don't have anything against E-bikes but where there being allowed to be ridden. If you want to buy a E-bikes then ride on open fire trails, maintenance roads or, here's the one I get the most push back on, OHV parks. E-bikes can deny it all they want but they are a motorized vehicle. The reason there is no debate on motocross tracks where people ride four stroke two stroke and now electric powered dirt bikes is because none of them are a threat to each other at least in a conflicting way on the track. I know I also ride dirt bikes. One more thing. Why would anybody spend two to three thousand dollars more for specialized's top level turbo E bike when you can purchase KTM's latest dirt bike offering which is what every upper end E-bike and the aftermarket company's to come will try to morph in one way or another. A bicycle is a bicycle. An E-bike especially the upper end ones are nothing more than a moped on steroids. I'll close with this, some renown bike parks such as sedona don't allow E-bikes. I saw and heard this on a world ride cyclery video where they were debating this same issue.


----------



## ZiggsterZaskar (Jul 25, 2021)

ZiggsterZaskar said:


> Like it or not E-bikes ARE THE BIGGEST THREAT to not only traditional mountain biking but mountain biking in general. Why does it seem that I am the only one that recognizes this fact: Riding a bike is hard not only physically but maybe even more so mentally. The hardest part about riding a bike be it road or mnt is pedaling uphill. That is what keeps the posers and people who would never even consider throwing a leg over a bike....believe I have tried numerous times to get family and friends into mnt. biking who don't even try even at a beginner level or make a handful or less attempts and give up. And I am not taking them on hell rides either but, very beginner easy paced rides where at times I follow them at there pace. My point that you may be asking is this. As frustrating as it it to see them give up the fact is that's less people on our already over crowded trails. Taking the "work and earning your way" to the next level out of the equation by purchasing an E-bike to ride on people powered trails singletrack does nothing but open the floodgates to more people on our already overcrowded trails with questionable if, any trail ediquite. It's been a long hard battle to find common ground with hikers and horse riders to finally accept and respect each other but, even though traditional bikers are still at times the scapegoat for abuse and overcrowding on trails in more populated areas. E-bikes in this scenario, if they haven't already will put the nail in the coffin scenarios like this. E-bikes especially the class three bikes (the more powerful and moto oriented if I'm not mistaken of the three classes) will just set us going backwards....I have already had numerous encounters mostly with young punks, not only mtn biking but even on walking trails when walking my dog. I don't have anything against E-bikes but where there being allowed to be ridden. If you want to buy a E-bikes then ride on open fire trails, maintenance roads or, here's the one I get the most push back on, OHV parks. E-bikes can deny it all they want but they are a motorized vehicle. The reason there is no debate on motocross tracks where people ride four stroke two stroke and now electric powered dirt bikes is because none of them are a threat to each other at least in a conflicting way on the track. I know I also ride dirt bikes. One more thing. Why would anybody spend two to three thousand dollars more for specialized's top level turbo E bike when you can purchase KTM's latest dirt bike offering which is what every upper end E-bike and the aftermarket company's to come will try to morph in one way or another. A bicycle is a bicycle. An E-bike especially the upper end ones are nothing more than a moped on steroids. I'll close with this, some renown bike parks such as sedona don't allow E-bikes. I saw and heard this on a world ride cyclery video where they were debating this same issue.


I meant to say KTM's latest electric powered dirt bike


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Crazy Pills


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## BuzzinHornets (Sep 17, 2005)

ZiggsterZaskar said:


> Like it or not E-bikes ARE THE BIGGEST THREAT to not only traditional mountain biking but mountain biking in general. Why does it seem that I am the only one that recognizes this fact: Riding a bike is hard not only physically but maybe even more so mentally. The hardest part about riding a bike be it road or mnt is pedaling uphill. That is what keeps the posers and people who would never even consider throwing a leg over a bike....believe I have tried numerous times to get family and friends into mnt. biking who don't even try even at a beginner level or make a handful or less attempts and give up. And I am not taking them on hell rides either but, very beginner easy paced rides where at times I follow them at there pace. My point that you may be asking is this. As frustrating as it it to see them give up the fact is that's less people on our already over crowded trails. Taking the "work and earning your way" to the next level out of the equation by purchasing an E-bike to ride on people powered trails singletrack does nothing but open the floodgates to more people on our already overcrowded trails with questionable if, any trail ediquite. It's been a long hard battle to find common ground with hikers and horse riders to finally accept and respect each other but, even though traditional bikers are still at times the scapegoat for abuse and overcrowding on trails in more populated areas. E-bikes in this scenario, if they haven't already will put the nail in the coffin scenarios like this. E-bikes especially the class three bikes (the more powerful and moto oriented if I'm not mistaken of the three classes) will just set us going backwards....I have already had numerous encounters mostly with young punks, not only mtn biking but even on walking trails when walking my dog. I don't have anything against E-bikes but where there being allowed to be ridden. If you want to buy a E-bikes then ride on open fire trails, maintenance roads or, here's the one I get the most push back on, OHV parks. E-bikes can deny it all they want but they are a motorized vehicle. The reason there is no debate on motocross tracks where people ride four stroke two stroke and now electric powered dirt bikes is because none of them are a threat to each other at least in a conflicting way on the track. I know I also ride dirt bikes. One more thing. Why would anybody spend two to three thousand dollars more for specialized's top level turbo E bike when you can purchase KTM's latest dirt bike offering which is what every upper end E-bike and the aftermarket company's to come will try to morph in one way or another. A bicycle is a bicycle. An E-bike especially the upper end ones are nothing more than a moped on steroids. I'll close with this, some renown bike parks such as sedona don't allow E-bikes. I saw and heard this on a world ride cyclery video where they were debating this same issue.


Please cite one example of access being lost explicitly because of ebikes. Perhaps the reason you are the only one that can “recognize this fact” is because it is indeed NOT a fact…


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## Riccochet (4 mo ago)

Recently class 1 e-bikes are now allowed on the trails at state parks and county managed trail systems in my area. For the most part, from what I've seen, it's just older people who are leisurely riding the green trails. The only thing they are doing is getting in the way of more experienced, faster riders. 

I don't see the problem with pedal assist. Certainly not a "threat" to anything other than strava nerds ego's.


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

ZiggsterZaskar said:


> Like it or not E-bikes ARE THE BIGGEST THREAT to not only traditional mountain biking but mountain biking in general. Why does it seem that I am the only one that recognizes this fact: Riding a bike is hard not only physically but maybe even more so mentally. The hardest part about riding a bike be it road or mnt is pedaling uphill. That is what keeps the posers and people who would never even consider throwing a leg over a bike....believe I have tried numerous times to get family and friends into mnt. biking who don't even try even at a beginner level or make a handful or less attempts and give up. And I am not taking them on hell rides either but, very beginner easy paced rides where at times I follow them at there pace. My point that you may be asking is this. As frustrating as it it to see them give up the fact is that's less people on our already over crowded trails. Taking the "work and earning your way" to the next level out of the equation by purchasing an E-bike to ride on people powered trails singletrack does nothing but open the floodgates to more people on our already overcrowded trails with questionable if, any trail ediquite. It's been a long hard battle to find common ground with hikers and horse riders to finally accept and respect each other but, even though traditional bikers are still at times the scapegoat for abuse and overcrowding on trails in more populated areas. E-bikes in this scenario, if they haven't already will put the nail in the coffin scenarios like this. E-bikes especially the class three bikes (the more powerful and moto oriented if I'm not mistaken of the three classes) will just set us going backwards....I have already had numerous encounters mostly with young punks, not only mtn biking but even on walking trails when walking my dog. I don't have anything against E-bikes but where there being allowed to be ridden. If you want to buy a E-bikes then ride on open fire trails, maintenance roads or, here's the one I get the most push back on, OHV parks. E-bikes can deny it all they want but they are a motorized vehicle. The reason there is no debate on motocross tracks where people ride four stroke two stroke and now electric powered dirt bikes is because none of them are a threat to each other at least in a conflicting way on the track. I know I also ride dirt bikes. One more thing. Why would anybody spend two to three thousand dollars more for specialized's top level turbo E bike when you can purchase KTM's latest dirt bike offering which is what every upper end E-bike and the aftermarket company's to come will try to morph in one way or another. A bicycle is a bicycle. An E-bike especially the upper end ones are nothing more than a moped on steroids. I'll close with this, some renown bike parks such as sedona don't allow E-bikes. I saw and heard this on a world ride cyclery video where they were debating this same issue.



Well isn't it Negative Ned....who gives a darn about your attitude! eBikes are here to stay whether or not you like it!


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

This argument has become so tiresome.
It was the same in the 90s when FS bikes became the norm.

Education is the primary cause if you ask me. Most people who think ebikes are a threat or not needed don’t understand or even know the difference between a Class 1, 2, or 3 bike. AND have usually never even ridden one. There is also a difference in pedal assist and an electric motorcycle/moped. They are not the same and to consider them the same is ignorant at best.

I do agree that ebikes will open MTB up to those who are not as open to the punishment of a climb, but who cares!? It just means that’s more bodies to throw at the government for trail access and more MTB advocates.

When parabolic skis became a thing, a whole boat load more people began to ski, and now long forgotten ski hills are reopening because the demand went up. Technology is a good thing.

Now can an argument be made that eBikes will dominate the market and trad bikes will go the way of the dodo? Maybe. I think hard tails are a good example here since FS bikes are the dominate type now. But you can still find a HT from most, if not all brands. And they have become incredibly affordable for entry level folks. So, again in the end, technology is good for the consumer as it eventually trickles down.

As to the OP, yes we’ve reached the peak. Prices will fall significantly after the holiday season I think. On a much darker tangent, demand everywhere is going to fall as boomers retire and die off plus gen X and millennials are not replacing themselves. Population will decrease over the next decade or so further decreasing demand across the board for everything. If this isn’t the peak, we are almost nearly there. Don’t believe me? How many childless homes do you know? Of the ones with kids, how many have more than 2?


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Maybe you guys should stop looking at the Trek and Specialized websites for innovations, and research all of the really cool small brands out there that are making killer bikes. Trek and Specialized rarely innovate. They pick up on upcoming trends and push out a jillion bikes in the name of profit.
> 
> Plus bikes
> Fat bikes
> ...


Didn’t trek come out with the 29er? That alone is much more innovative than plus, AM hardtails and gravel bikes. Also, I remember trek had hybrid bikes back in the 90’s which were essentially like gravel bikes.


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## Vandals (Oct 21, 2018)

To the original point, this is a great time to be a rider. The bikes are awesome, lots of options, the trails and community are strong, and we have ebiking morphing into its own sport.

2020-2021 saw more people try out bikes for the first time. Families biking. People discovering the therapeutic benefits of pushing themselves to new heights. Some found that assisted pedaling was what they needed. 

As we roll through 2022 and into 2023, I expect fancy bikes and fancy ebikes to hit the used market as people sell for financial reasons or lack of interest as pedaling is still hard. Deals will be found. For some of us, N+1 is real and deals are good. For shops selling bikes, it may be painful. The smart shops work with communities to build family recreational riding areas. 

Ebikes as a long term market are only viable so long as biking remains. The fun of an ebike is going pro speeds without the lifelong kale diet or the trail restrictions of a dirt bike. Once bike riders are gone or pros move to ebikes, the recreational ebiker is back to being slow relative to the rest of the community. The irony will be when these slow eriders suddenly become bicycle purists who earn their downhills unlike those lazy ebikers. Life is cyclic. 

Instead of fighting between sports, bike vs ebike, instead work together to get more trails and areas opened up.


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## fogby (7 mo ago)

Regarding the e-bikes: I have always been a proponent of e-bikes but this has always been based on uses as a road bike. Thought was some exercise is better than none & it has great benefits for elderly folks. 

I recently had an encounter with an e-bike MTB on Peaks Trail in Breck for those who may know the area. It's a 2-way trails with several tight sections with tall high-mountain shrubs on either side. Tight in that you are hitting branches on both arms so meeting someone essentially requires one or both to stop. E-bikes are prohibited on this trail. But I met one while I was going downhill in one of the tight bits. He was going uphill at a clearly unexpected pace. We didn't hit each other so all was fine in the end. 

Maybe I should adjust my riding to expect the traditionally unexpected, maybe the e-bike guy should abide by the rules, maybe we need a couple serious injuries to tourists, etc. Don't know the answer, but last week certainly changed my opinion a bit.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

singletrackmack said:


> Didn’t trek come out with the 29er? That alone is much more innovative than plus, AM hardtails and gravel bikes. Also, I remember trek had hybrid bikes back in the 90’s which were essentially like gravel bikes.


I think Gary Fisher pioneered it, but at the time Fisher was a Trek brand. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

The only peak I’m reaching is the one in front of me:


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## ELmRidge (4 mo ago)

ZiggsterZaskar said:


> Like it or not E-bikes ARE THE BIGGEST THREAT to not only traditional mountain biking but mountain biking in general. Why does it seem that I am the only one that recognizes this fact: Riding a bike is hard not only physically but maybe even more so mentally. The hardest part about riding a bike be it road or mnt is pedaling uphill. That is what keeps the posers and people who would never even consider throwing a leg over a bike....believe I have tried numerous times to get family and friends into mnt. biking who don't even try even at a beginner level or make a handful or less attempts and give up. And I am not taking them on hell rides either but, very beginner easy paced rides where at times I follow them at there pace. My point that you may be asking is this. As frustrating as it it to see them give up the fact is that's less people on our already over crowded trails. Taking the "work and earning your way" to the next level out of the equation by purchasing an E-bike to ride on people powered trails singletrack does nothing but open the floodgates to more people on our already overcrowded trails with questionable if, any trail ediquite. It's been a long hard battle to find common ground with hikers and horse riders to finally accept and respect each other but, even though traditional bikers are still at times the scapegoat for abuse and overcrowding on trails in more populated areas. E-bikes in this scenario, if they haven't already will put the nail in the coffin scenarios like this. E-bikes especially the class three bikes (the more powerful and moto oriented if I'm not mistaken of the three classes) will just set us going backwards....I have already had numerous encounters mostly with young punks, not only mtn biking but even on walking trails when walking my dog. I don't have anything against E-bikes but where there being allowed to be ridden. If you want to buy a E-bikes then ride on open fire trails, maintenance roads or, here's the one I get the most push back on, OHV parks. E-bikes can deny it all they want but they are a motorized vehicle. The reason there is no debate on motocross tracks where people ride four stroke two stroke and now electric powered dirt bikes is because none of them are a threat to each other at least in a conflicting way on the track. I know I also ride dirt bikes. One more thing. Why would anybody spend two to three thousand dollars more for specialized's top level turbo E bike when you can purchase KTM's latest dirt bike offering which is what every upper end E-bike and the aftermarket company's to come will try to morph in one way or another. A bicycle is a bicycle. An E-bike especially the upper end ones are nothing more than a moped on steroids. I'll close with this, some renown bike parks such as sedona don't allow E-bikes. I saw and heard this on a world ride cyclery video where they were debating this same issue.


I am not discounting the fact that more cyclists on trails (e-bikes and regular bikes) may increase funding and expansion of trail systems. It might not happen, or it might happen in some areas, and create problems elsewhere with some trail systems overburdened and closed. I cannot cite any examples, I'm just keeping an open mind. I do not normally bike on weekends therefore i am not affected by potential for crowding. 

You still have to pedal on most e-bikes don't you? E-bikes are purchased and serviced at LBS's no? If i had a medical condition that required some assistance to pedal and still wanted to ride...would i consider an e-bike? Yes. Until then I will enjoy my mountain bike. My local trail system is pretty rural and I rarely see a soul when there and the few people i have met there are very nice people. Unfortunately not everyone is as lucky as I consider myself to be.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Vandals said:


> The fun of an ebike is going pro speeds without the lifelong kale diet or the trail restrictions of a dirt bike.


That seems like it could be problematic, like sticking a 15 year-old on his learner's permit behind the wheel of a 500hp sports car. Oh well, they'll either learn to handle the bike or bounce themselves off the roster before long.


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

ttengineer said:


> There is also a difference in pedal assist and an electric motorcycle/moped. They are not the same and to consider them the same is ignorant at best.


Going through the motion of pedaling with the bike adding 250W to 750W is a moped. Pedal assist is a sham. It is a throttle operated with the legs rather than a hand. If manufacturers were truly interested in pedal assist then ebikes would add, say, 50% to the wattage being generated by the rider. That would also mean they could be limited to 50 or 60 Watts because an out of shape rider who can only generate 80W could ride at 120W, which is typical for a moderately in-shape rider. There would be no need for the ridiculous 250W to 750W being shoehorned into class 1. 

Heck, 250W is higher than the real FTP of a typical rider who trains seriously. 300W puts someone at the upper end of cat 2 and the lower end of cat 1 in road racing. The wattages supported by ebikes is so far above their ostensible use as a pedal assist it is a joke.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Going through the motion of pedaling with the bike adding 250W to 750W is a moped. Pedal assist is a sham. It is a throttle operated with the legs rather than a hand. If manufacturers were truly interested in pedal assist then ebikes would add, say, 50% to the wattage being generated by the rider. That would also mean they could be limited to 50 or 60 Watts because an out of shape rider who can only generate 80W could ride at 120W, which is typical for a moderately in-shape rider. There would be no need for the ridiculous 250W to 750W being shoehorned into class 1.
> 
> Heck, 250W is higher than the real FTP of a typical rider who trains seriously. 300W puts someone at the upper end of cat 2 and the lower end of cat 1 in road racing. The wattages supported by ebikes is so far above their ostensible use as a pedal assist it is a joke.


Wrong.

I've done the testing. Average power over the course of a ride on my analog bike at a "fast recreational pace" = 200W. Average power on my ebike at 3/4 power? (also fast recreational pace) = 250W.

Good new though I guess. The ebike only added 50w, which is what you wanted, right?









eMTB vs Analog data comparison


For those wondering how a traditional bike compares to an eMTB over the same course, I put this together. Same route, same rider, similar conditions, ridden about a week apart. Yes, there's a slight difference in distance, because I forgot to include a small extra loop of gravel bikepath along...




www.mtbr.com






.


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## jeff92123 (Jul 13, 2012)

These threads need a filter that hides all the comments where a person takes their own personal limited experience and then assumes it makes sense that everywhere else must be the same. "Mah grampa smoked cigarettes until age 95 jes afore he done die. So owl them sayin' cigarettes is bad is jes a bunch 'o fool." Yeah, that's smart.

My theory is that for every encounter between a mountain biker and hiker, the encounter will on average be more negative the higher the speed of the bike at the time of the encounter. There are other factors (rider experience/ability, rider attitude, mass of the biker/rider combination, ability to control speed, etc.) but just want to make a simple point so sticking with speed only. Conclusion of theory: Ebikes, as a whole, cause a higher risk of bike bans on trails currently shared by bikes and hikers. As do heavy downhill shuttle bikes and such.

Ebiking looks like a lot of fun. I'd love to see them have their own trails somehow and something better than gravel roads or sharing with loud motorcycles. But they should not expect to ride existing trails that are "non-motorized only". Why should a much more established sport (and pure sport frankly) give way and risk closures of trails? I couldn't think of a better word than pure so excuse that if it bothers you. I'm sure a hiker would scoff at that term after seeing shred marks all over certain trails. 

Which brings up a whole other discussion that is also about as far away as one can get from the original post. I'm talking "shredders" on hiking and cc trails.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

jeff92123 said:


> These threads need a filter that hides all the comments where a person takes their own personal limited experience and then assumes it makes sense that everywhere else must be the same. "Mah grampa smoked cigarettes until age 95 jes afore he done die. So owl them sayin' cigarettes is bad is jes a bunch 'o fool." Yeah, that's smart.
> 
> My theory is that for every encounter between a mountain biker and hiker, the encounter will on average be more negative the higher the speed of the bike at the time of the encounter. There are other factors (rider experience/ability, rider attitude, mass of the biker/rider combination, ability to control speed, etc.) but just want to make a simple point so sticking with speed only. Conclusion of theory: Ebikes, as a whole, cause a higher risk of bike bans on trails currently shared by bikes and hikers. As do heavy downhill shuttle bikes and such.
> 
> ...


Funny you mention hikers, because you sound exactly like they did when MTB's first started showing up on public trails in the 80's and 90's....and we all know how that worked out.

Facts are important, and the facts are that in the real world, class 1 eMTB's speed, sound, appearance, and environmental impact is virtually identical to traditional MTB's, so they should have access to the same trails, and be treated the same.

Your concerns and theories about what may happen when eMTB's are given access to the same trails as traditional bikes have been disproven over years, and millions of rider miles, with the land managers saying it's not a problem. No additional or separate trails are needed.


.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

_CJ said:


> Wrong.
> 
> I've done the testing. Average power over the course of a ride on my analog bike at a "fast recreational pace" = 200W. Average power on my ebike at 3/4 power? (also fast recreational pace) = 250W.
> 
> ...


CJ, where are you riding and what app is that?

Just curious. 

Thx

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## jgusta (Oct 9, 2004)

dugt said:


> Reading about the e-mtb vs mtb posts here reminds me of similar conflicts.
> Snowboarding vs Skiing
> Fat skis vs skinny skis
> Long surfboards vs short boards
> ...


So true! A non-conformist here by trait, so most the “groupies” and clan cyclists don’t know what to do with me. Think I am auto disregarded because of it despite being a trail lover on wheels for many years. I love ebikes! Regular bikes good to, especially if longer rides of course.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> CJ, where are you riding and what app is that?
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> ...


Those rides were done in Colorado Springs. The data is from Strava.

.


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

ZiggsterZaskar said:


> Like it or not E-bikes ARE THE BIGGEST THREAT to not only traditional mountain biking but mountain biking in general. Why does it seem that I am the only one that recognizes this fact:...


RC at Pinkbike who was pretty good at predicting every mtb trend since the 80's said this same thing. The tipping point will be when more than half the bikes on the trail are ebikes.

After 30 years of mtb I find most people get broken off and don't come back, ebike wrecks are a bit more accelerated and probably hurt more, so we have that. I think the current barrier to your theory are black diamond trails. People who don't know how to ride will clog them but they don't come back. Since the fitness barrier is down we must put up new barriers. All new trails built most be black diamond and above only.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I have a lot of mixed thoughts about e-bikes on mtb trails. 

Just now, I knocked out 14 miles averaging right at 11mph (on my bike), and at times, the line of sight for this bidirectional multiuser trail is very poor, like 10' when your going double digit mph. The thing is, it took me years of fitness, trail experience and skill improvements to manage to maintain that speed. On these trails, an e- bike allowing many more novices, more like encourage novices, to ride at these speeds all with even more momentum, is just hazardous for other trail users. And I've already experienced this exact situation on these trails (300#s of e- bike & novice rider unable to control their speed coming headon), with my 40# daughter riding behind me. 

That said I'm going to buy a low powered e-bike next year for the rogue rough trails that are realistically one direction only, with no other riders or hikers. It's not that I can't ride the gnarly trails that I like so much on my bike, it's that the climb back out is a real grind. Still really enjoy the technical climbs, but instead of spending 20% of my time shredding & 80% slogging back out, I'd like to get that ratio closer to 50/ 50.

Also, I did go ride near CO springs 2 summers ago and we did this great ride a few times (Captain Jack's maybe?) and the slog up the road was just horrible, honestly. That trail was one way, and very boring up and a full power ebike makes perfect sense there. 

But we also rode some others like Little Moab and a bike was perfect and fast for an undulating trail like that.


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## Keiz (Aug 5, 2019)

dysfunction said:


> I'm saying that assuming that the economy is going to get shakier, makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Inflation is what it is. To be honest, I've never lived in a non-inflationary economy, and neither have you


Yes. but currently, the inflation of expenses is going up faster than most people's wages, leaving a smaller slice of the pie for discretionary spending. Hopefully, wages will catch up before small businesses like bike shops go under.


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## Keiz (Aug 5, 2019)

OneTrustMan said:


> It's pretty nice.
> You can save up to 35% costs and after 3 years you can buy it for 18% of its original price and sell it.
> Rinse and repeat.
> The higher the price of the bike is, the more you can save.
> ...


Leasing has it's pluses and minuses. After 3 years you have to start again from scratch unless you want to buy a three year old $2000 bike for $360, after having spent about $1800 on it already.


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## Steve Pedigo (Jan 12, 2022)

prj71 said:


> Talked to to friend over the weekend that owns a bike shop in Michigan. He told me his floor of full of bikes that aren't selling and his warehouse is full of bikes yet to be built. He had to tell his shop manager to quit ordering bikes.
> 
> Anyone else hearing or seeing the same?


I don't know about stores (because there are none, out here in Far West Texas,) but as a service tech out here in Brewster, Presidio, and Jeff Davis counties, every household has 3-4 bicycles, and they're buying new, or new e-bikes! We got bikes, baby! Talk about market saturation.....


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## ValEs (6 mo ago)

Seems odd so many ebike ppl on a mtb forum. Don’t they have one?
An old 70 fuxxer here, to me the point is to sweat your axx off, getting stronger. climbing mile plus then blasting down over anything. Just got over Covid and I firmly believe my real mt biking helped me tolerate/ fight the virus. As it settled intommy chest esp being asthmatic.


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

Keiz said:


> Leasing has it's pluses and minuses. After 3 years you have to start again from scratch unless you want to buy a three year old $2000 bike for $360, after having spent about $1800 on it already.


It's not ecactly like that with jobbike.
You pay it before taxes, not after. 
In my case, I got a Giant E-Trance for 5000 bucks.
5000 - 18% is 4100 left. 
From those 4100 more or less 25-40% ( depends on your tax status ) will be not paid.
So over 3 years I pay around 2670, not 4100 and then I can buy it for the remaining 900 ( the 18% ) reducing the overall cost of the bike frome 5000 to 3500 ish. The higher the price of the bike the more someone can save.

Almost all ebikes in germany are being sold like this.


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## Canssago (9 mo ago)

_CJ said:


> Wrong.
> 
> I've done the testing. Average power over the course of a ride on my analog bike at a "fast recreational pace" = 200W. Average power on my ebike at 3/4 power? (also fast recreational pace) = 250W.
> 
> ...


Your use use of analog makes it difficult to take you seriously at all, hence why ebikers are the worst thing to ever be on the trails.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Those rides were done in Colorado Springs. The data is from Strava.
> 
> .




Strava estimated power or power meter?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Strava estimated power or power meter?


The watts estimate for the bike seemed really high based on the speed and feet gained. 
But Strava is really just an estimate so that's fine. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Strava estimated power or power meter?


It says Estimated Power.

Zero percent chance _CJ has an actual power meter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jimmy Curry (Jul 12, 2021)

fogby said:


> Regarding the e-bikes: I have always been a proponent of e-bikes but this has always been based on uses as a road bike. Thought was some exercise is better than none & it has great benefits for elderly folks.
> 
> I recently had an encounter with an e-bike MTB on Peaks Trail in Breck for those who may know the area. It's a 2-way trails with several tight sections with tall high-mountain shrubs on either side. Tight in that you are hitting branches on both arms so meeting someone essentially requires one or both to stop. E-bikes are prohibited on this trail. But I met one while I was going downhill in one of the tight bits. He was going uphill at a clearly unexpected pace. We didn't hit each other so all was fine in the end.
> 
> Maybe I should adjust my riding to expect the traditionally unexpected, maybe the e-bike guy should abide by the rules, maybe we need a couple serious injuries to tourists, etc. Don't know the answer, but last week certainly changed my opinion a bit.


Please don't change your open-mind-ess-ness, because you ran across a bad apple. An emphatic plea from an ORBEA RISE owner that follows the rules.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

_CJ said:


> Facts are important, and the facts are that in the real world, class 1 eMTB's speed, sound, appearance, and environmental impact is virtually identical to traditional MTB's, so they should have access to the same trails, and be treated the same.


Yes. Facts are important. Could you provide a few to back up your statements? For example, can you show how the lithium in the e battery has a similar environmental impact to a traditional bike? Or anything to back up the claim that they are the same speed? I'm hearing a lot of anecdotal evidence of e bikes zooming up a hill at speeds impossible on a traditional bike.


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## mfiles (Sep 19, 2007)

ValEs said:


> Seems odd so many ebike ppl on a mtb forum. Don’t they have one?
> An old 70 fuxxer here, to me the point is to sweat your axx off, getting stronger. climbing mile plus then blasting down over anything. Just got over Covid and I firmly believe my real mt biking helped me tolerate/ fight the virus. As it settled intommy chest esp being asthmatic.


I'm a 74 year-old who sweats his ass off, aims to get stronger and climbs the miles on an eMTB (avg. 2-3 rides a week vs 1 or 2). I restrict the torque curve down to 10% assist using the lowest setting on my Turbo Levo on Eco mode and get the same benefits as the pedal MTB guy. My Garmin stats bear this out. Plus I'm not wasted at the end of the ride. I don't ride recklessly, I dismount for horses and am courteous to all trail users. After 40+ years of unassisted road and MTB riding I have found a way to keep things in motion and still smile at the end of a ride. Most others riders I chat with on the trail would agree.


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## Gone4Good (May 18, 2019)

Just a ? to anyone with LBS knowledge. I remember the pandemic days where shops would tell you “we don’t know what we are getting or when we are getting” when you would ask about a bike. Seems like most shops have a lot of inventory on certain bikes - eg the Specialized Rockhoppers or Trek Verves. Can an independently owned shop deny shipments of models that were ordered “back then” that are now way over surplussed?


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

Gone4Good said:


> Just a ? to anyone with LBS knowledge. I remember the pandemic days where shops would tell you “we don’t know what we are getting or when we are getting” when you would ask about a bike. Seems like most shops have a lot of inventory on certain bikes - eg the Specialized Rockhoppers or Trek Verves. Can an independently owned shop deny shipments of models that were ordered “back then” that are now way over surplussed?


I don’t know but ona similar note i just received a deore shifter i ordered about a year ago (I completely forgot about it until it arrived last week). I don’t need it anymore but not sure its worth wasting the shipping $ to send it back for a refund.


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## ZiggsterZaskar (Jul 25, 2021)

ELmRidge said:


> I am not discounting the fact that more cyclists on trails (e-bikes and regular bikes) may increase funding and expansion of trail systems. It might not happen, or it might happen in some areas, and create problems elsewhere with some trail systems overburdened and closed. I cannot cite any examples, I'm just keeping an open mind. I do not normally bike on weekends therefore i am not affected by potential for crowding.
> 
> You still have to pedal on most e-bikes don't you? E-bikes are purchased and serviced at LBS's no? If i had a medical condition that required some assistance to pedal and still wanted to ride...would i consider an e-bike? Yes. Until then I will enjoy my mountain bike. My local trail system is pretty rural and I rarely see a soul when there and the few people i have met there are very nice people. Unfortunately not everyone is as lucky as I consider myself to be.


I have no problem with old age and ones body hitting a wall or some with a physical condition that an E-bike is the only option.


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## ZiggsterZaskar (Jul 25, 2021)

ZiggsterZaskar said:


> I have no problem with old age and ones body hitting a wall or some with a physical condition that an E-bike is the only option.


It's the younger crowd and newbies that choose an E-bike to basically ride a dirt bike on single track people powered trails......


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## Vandals (Oct 21, 2018)

Nat said:


> That seems like it could be problematic, like sticking a 15 year-old on his learner's permit behind the wheel of a 500hp sports car. Oh well, they'll either learn to handle the bike or bounce themselves off the roster before long.


Just like everything else, someone is giving their kid something hazardous. Then acting surprised when that hazardous thing injure or kills the kid. Then when/if they get older, the kid whines how their parents put them at risk. The kids who weren’t given that hazardous toy complain that their parents sheltered them or did trust them. It’s a classic story set on repeat.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> I have a lot of mixed thoughts about e-bikes on mtb trails.
> 
> Just now, I knocked out 14 miles averaging right at 11mph (on my bike), and at times, the line of sight for this bidirectional multiuser trail is very poor, like 10' when your going double digit mph. The thing is, it took me years of fitness, trail experience and skill improvements to manage to maintain that speed. On these trails, an e- bike allowing many more novices, more like encourage novices, to ride at these speeds all with even more momentum, is just hazardous for other trail users. And I've already experienced this exact situation on these trails (300#s of e- bike & novice rider unable to control their speed coming headon), with my 40# daughter riding behind me.
> 
> ...


FYI: Jack's is a bi-directional multi-user trail, including motorcycles. The enduro-bros like to treat it like a one way downhill only bike only trail, but it's not, so you end up with a bunch of pissed of hikers and moto riders hating mountain bikes, E or otherwise. Again, it's not the bike that's the problem, it's the rider. I used to go up that trail on my moto because it's the only moto-legal singletrack trail within an hour of town, and had several near misses as I crept around limited sight corners at a 2-3 mph.


.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Heck, 250W is higher than the real FTP of a typical rider who trains seriously. 300W puts someone at the upper end of cat 2 and the lower end of cat 1 in road racing. The wattages supported by ebikes is so far above their ostensible use as a pedal assist it is a joke.


Man, I must be an absolute specimen of an animal at 230 lbs then because my FTP is 367 and I never train seriously and ride a stationary bike at most 3 days a week and get out on the trail at best twice a month. 

250w FTP is terribly low for anyone that trains seriously. Like abysmally low. 

Beyond that, it sounds like you’ve never ridden an ebike. The wattage added isn’t really comparable to say the way a racer rides. It’s more about torque. And most motors add at most 85Nm then cut out. Class 1 bikes are also required to cut power at 21mph. Class 3 is 24mph I think. 

I’d challenge you to ride an ebike on trail. Put it on full power, and sprint up the largest and longest hill you typically ride then continue with your normal ride. I’d put good money on your mind being changed. 

And I don’t own an ebike. I’ve just rented one a few times. 


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ttengineer said:


> Man, I must be an absolute specimen of an animal at 230 lbs then because my FTP is 367 and I never train seriously and ride a stationary bike at most 3 days a week and get out on the trail at best twice a month.
> 
> 250w FTP is terribly low for anyone that trains seriously. Like abysmally low.



You are completely wrong and I suspect your power meter is flawed.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> You are completely wrong and I suspect your power meter is flawed.


It’s a peloton bike that gets serviced every year, so IDK. Just going off what I can do and what I see others in the FTP class can do, I’d say a pro pushes over 430ish watts for an FTP. 


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Vandals said:


> Just like everything else, someone is giving their kid something hazardous. Then acting surprised when that hazardous thing injure or kills the kid. Then when/if they get older, the kid whines how their parents put them at risk. The kids who weren’t given that hazardous toy complain that their parents sheltered them or did trust them. It’s a classic story set on repeat.



Do you have any kids yourself? Or just making stuff up?

My son and most of his friends all grew up playing with 'hazardous' toys. 
Zero of them have ever complained about it. Free-range/semi-feral kids don't roll that way.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

_CJ said:


> FYI: Jack's is a bi-directional multi-user trail, including motorcycles. The enduro-bros like to treat it like a one way downhill only bike only trail, but it's not, so you end up with a bunch of pissed of hikers and moto riders hating mountain bikes, E or otherwise. Again, it's not the bike that's the problem, it's the rider. I used to go up that trail on my moto because it's the only moto-legal singletrack trail within an hour of town, and had several near misses as I crept around limited sight corners at a 2-3 mph.
> 
> 
> .


I suspect I have the names mixed up then. 

The one I was thinking of was a 1.5 hour dirt road climb followed by a trail that could realistically only be ridden 1 direction back down. 

Also, I rode with a guy on an e-bike and he specifically told me that all motorized vehicles, including his e- bike, were not allowed. 

I think full power e-bikes feel so strong because they are light, geared low with very fast rolling set ups (compared to an actual dirt bike) combined with the insane torque of an electric motor.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

ttengineer said:


> Man, I must be an absolute specimen of an animal at 230 lbs then because my FTP is 367 and I never train seriously and ride a stationary bike at most 3 days a week and get out on the trail at best twice a month.
> 
> 250w FTP is terribly low for anyone that trains seriously. Like abysmally low.
> 
> ...


You're a strong guy!

I'm not! I do train some, I do work out, I'm fit appearing, I struggle to get 200 ftp at 190#s.

That said on my ride yesterday with younger very fit riders, I was a beast and untouchable that particular day. 



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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> You're a strong guy!
> 
> I'm not! I do train some, I do work out, I'm fit appearing, I struggle to get 200 ftp at 190#s.
> 
> ...


Strong, yes, fit? No. 

My buddies regularly out ride me, but I can momentarily push harder than they can. 

Either way, to my original point, ebikes need to be ridden to be understood. 

I’d wager every single person on this thread that hates them hasn’t ever put a leg over one. 

And most are just repeating BS crap about them that they have heard or read on the internet. 

Don’t knock it till you try it. Including in the bed room boys. 


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

I think people need to stop calling electric dirt bikes ebikes. There is a big difference and I agree the e dirt bikes should not need to be on bike/hiking trails. If they were identified properly it would be much easier to get others on board but when you call them the same thing you just sound like a hater.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ttengineer said:


> It’s a peloton bike that gets serviced every year, so IDK. Just going off what I can do and what I see others in the FTP class can do, I’d say a pro pushes over 430ish watts for an FTP.



Again you would be wrong. Most pros are below 430, many of them way below that. I'm just an amateur but I worked my @ss off to get to 250 and have raced competitively (road) around that number. 

I'm not 230# though.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Yah, I've tried to ride with a stocky Cat1 rider at around 300 ftp & I was way way out matched. Like I've never experienced before. 
FJSNOOZER was stupid strong on his bike!

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## NC_Foothills_Rider (11 mo ago)

Nat said:


> That seems like it could be problematic, like sticking a 15 year-old on his learner's permit behind the wheel of a 500hp sports car. Oh well, they'll either learn to handle the bike or bounce themselves off the roster before long.


Yes. Because nature does not abide lies. Non-pros going pro speeds spells lots of upcoming Darwin Awards. Not that there's anything wrong with that


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> I suspect I have the names mixed up then.
> 
> The one I was thinking of was a 1.5 hour dirt road climb followed by a trail that could realistically only be ridden 1 direction back down.
> 
> ...


Insane torque? Just stop it. 90nm (the most powerful class 1 available) is all of 66 ft/lbs. Far less than the average human can generate on their own.

There are only 2 downhill only trails in Colo Sprgs, both are close to town, accessed by pavement, and only opened in the past year or two. My guess would be that you rode Sesame, or Capt'n Morgans, which are both illegal trails accessed from Jack's, one of which has been decommissioned by the USFS, so you were likely riding illegally too.


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## NC_Foothills_Rider (11 mo ago)

Peak MTB? if the economy goes south yes. If we become more prosperous (I view that as unlikely) as a nation, then I reckon e-bikes will become massively popular because they are more fun to ride off-road than a regular bike for most people for obvious reasons; and if the demand for e-bikes goes up then economies of scale will give us lower priced e-bikes eventually.

If we stay in an ecomic stasis then e-bikes (real e-mtbs, not hub motor crap) will stay sort of fringe due to the high cost of entry compared to pedal bikes and mtb bikes will stay fairly constant in terns of numbers of users.

If the economy gets worse (likely IMO) we could see a lot more bicyclists in general but MTB will decline along with discretionary income.

Just as it will be with ski boats, bass boats, jet skis, dirt bikes, Harleys, classic muscle cars, and every other sort of high priced hobby. 

Think back to 2008 when all sorts of luxury toys were being sold dirt cheap for cash.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

NC_Foothills_Rider said:


> Think back to 2008 when all sorts of luxury toys were being sold dirt cheap for cash.


Buy low, sell high!


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

ttengineer said:


> Man, I must be an absolute specimen of an animal at 230 lbs then because my FTP is 367 and I never train seriously and ride a stationary bike at most 3 days a week and get out on the trail at best twice a month.
> 
> 250w FTP is terribly low for anyone that trains seriously. Like abysmally low.


I am talking about real Watts for an hour not internet Watts. 

Funny how so many cyclists web people claim they have a 300W FTP but so few of them show up in actual races.


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## ironhippy (Nov 21, 2017)

ttengineer said:


> Man, I must be an absolute specimen of an animal at 230 lbs then because my FTP is 367 and I never train seriously and ride a stationary bike at most 3 days a week and get out on the trail at best twice a month.
> 
> 250w FTP is terribly low for anyone that trains seriously. Like abysmally low.


Calling someone with an FTP of 250 "terribly low" (without any other context) would be very similar to calling someone who weighs 230 lbs fat (without any other context)

Weight matters a lot when talking about FTP numbers. Your weight to power ratio is 3.53. Someone who weighs 150 lbs with a 250w FTP has a power to weight ratio of 3.62. They would beat you on the uphills with their abysmally low FTP.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> I am talking about real Watts for an hour not internet Watts.
> 
> Funny how so many cyclists web people claim they have a 300W FTP but so few of them show up in actual races.


FYI FTP is based on output for 20 min. Not 60. 

Correction 364 FTP score. 

I don’t race, because it’s boring.










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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

ironhippy said:


> Calling someone with an FTP of 250 "terribly low" (without any other context) would be very similar to calling someone who weighs 230 lbs fat (without any other context)
> 
> Weight matters a lot when talking about FTP numbers. Your weight to power ratio is 3.53. Someone who weighs 150 lbs with a 250w FTP has a power to weight ratio of 3.62. They would beat you on the uphills with their abysmally low FTP.


Fair point. And at 6’1” and 230 I am kind of fat, more soft in the middle though. 


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

NC_Foothills_Rider said:


> Peak MTB? if the economy goes south yes. If we become more prosperous (I view that as unlikely) as a nation, then I reckon e-bikes will become massively popular because they are more fun to ride off-road than a regular bike for most people for obvious reasons; and if the demand for e-bikes goes up then economies of scale will give us lower priced e-bikes eventually.
> 
> If we stay in an ecomic stasis then e-bikes (real e-mtbs, not hub motor crap) will stay sort of fringe due to the high cost of entry compared to pedal bikes and mtb bikes will stay fairly constant in terns of numbers of users.
> 
> ...


Regardless of where the economy goes, I think we're headed for a downturn in outdoor sports participation in general, which is a good thing imho. It exploded under Covid because people wanted to get out of their houses and options were limited. Now that the pandemic is over (as JB said on 60 minutes last night), people are going to get back their normal lives. Going to indoor gyms, hanging out in bars, etc. 

The used bike market will likely crash in the spring when everyone does their spring cleaning, and a lot of bike shops are going to go under as a result of too much inventory they can't move and associated debt they can't carry, plus there's no more PPP money coming in.

The flash/crash sales won't extend across all outdoor equipment markets though. A friend of mine just sold his humongous travel trailer that he bought in 2020 for $6k more than he paid because housing/rent is still expensive, and a lot of people are buying trailers to live in full time.


.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Are we discussing peak fitness or peak sales? What happened....


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## Riccochet (4 mo ago)

NC_Foothills_Rider said:


> Yes. Because nature does not abide lies. Non-pros going pro speeds spells lots of upcoming Darwin Awards. Not that there's anything wrong with that


Wise man once said "if you're gonna be stupid you better be tough".

We were pretty stupid and tough in the early 80's. No helmets, pads, nothing. Just a BMX bike, couple sheets of plywood, some trash cans and asphalt. Those old cheese grater pedals on your shins were lovely.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

ttengineer said:


> Strong, yes, fit? No.
> 
> My buddies regularly out ride me, but I can momentarily push harder than they can.


My body is very biased towards fast twitch and as such I can produce pretty high force for a short sprint, and I can do this over and over recovering pretty quickly, which works fairly well with our undulating but very abrupt terrain as long as I get a brief respite between these sprints.

Where I fall apart is on any extended climb, even a moderate one. Once I have to produce high force for more than 20 seconds or so I began to burn out and fall apart and I'll see riders that have appeared unfit next to me just motor away, often easily.

It's quite disheartening and I've worked to improve this on the trainer but there is no getting around the fact, I have a quite low ftp.

Your performance bias sounds like it's similar to mine going off your description, which is why such a high ftp sounds surprising. That sort of ftp would have you very competitive with Cat 1 racers, not having 'buddies regularly out ride me'.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Crankout said:


> Are we discussing peak fitness or peak sales? What happened....


We're discussing wattage and FTPs because that's SUPER interesting...


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Nat said:


> We're discussing wattage and FTPs because that's SUPER interesting...


Only if it piques your interest.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

dysfunction said:


> Only if it piques your interest.


snore


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## NYChaos (Jun 18, 2013)

Nat said:


> That seems like it could be problematic, like sticking a 15 year-old on his learner's permit behind the wheel of a 500hp sports car. Oh well, they'll either learn to handle the bike or bounce themselves off the roster before long.


What pro speeds? Ebikes are limited to 20 mph, and start cutting out around 18 mph. People go 40 mph on their downhill bikes.

In the 80s snowboarders were not allowed in skiing resorts. Now this ebike nonsense.


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## NYChaos (Jun 18, 2013)

ValEs said:


> Seems odd so many ebike ppl on a mtb forum. Don’t they have one?
> An old 70 fuxxer here, to me the point is to sweat your axx off, getting stronger. climbing mile plus then blasting down over anything. Just got over Covid and I firmly believe my real mt biking helped me tolerate/ fight the virus. As it settled intommy chest esp being asthmatic.


Doing technical climbs in eco mode on a 50lb bike is a hell of a workout.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

NYChaos said:


> What pro speeds? Ebikes are limited to 20 mph, and start cutting out around 18 mph. People go 40 mph on their downhill bikes.
> 
> In the 80s snowboarders were not allowed in skiing resorts. Now this ebike nonsense.


Snowboards aren’t motorized.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

ttengineer said:


> FYI FTP is based on output for 20 min. Not 60.


_"FTP is the highest power that a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state for approximately an hour [.]_"




> I don’t race, because it’s boring.


I suppose it would get monotonous to finish that far ahead of everyone else all the time


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

NYChaos said:


> What pro speeds? Ebikes are limited to 20 mph, and start cutting out around 18 mph. People go 40 mph on their downhill bikes.
> 
> In the 80s snowboarders were not allowed in skiing resorts. Now this ebike nonsense.


You should ask the guy who posted it.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

If you do a 20 min ftp test you are supposed to take 90% of that number as your actual ftp.

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> If you do a 20 min ftp test you are supposed to take 90% of that number as your actual ftp.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk




90-95% of 20 minute power. I may be wrong but I think the majority of coaches and training programs use 95%. It depends on what type of athlete you are but either number could be right. I've done a lot of 20 minute tests and have always based my ftp at 95% of that.

I always questioned whether or not that was accurate but one day I really went for it for an hour and nearly exactly matched my ftp number. So for me 95% works out.


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## cacatous (Dec 1, 2013)

fogby said:


> Regarding the e-bikes: I have always been a proponent of e-bikes but this has always been based on uses as a road bike. Thought was some exercise is better than none & it has great benefits for elderly folks.
> 
> I recently had an encounter with an e-bike MTB on Peaks Trail in Breck for those who may know the area. It's a 2-way trails with several tight sections with tall high-mountain shrubs on either side. Tight in that you are hitting branches on both arms so meeting someone essentially requires one or both to stop. E-bikes are prohibited on this trail. But I met one while I was going downhill in one of the tight bits. He was going uphill at a clearly unexpected pace. We didn't hit each other so all was fine in the end.
> 
> Maybe I should adjust my riding to expect the traditionally unexpected, maybe the e-bike guy should abide by the rules, maybe we need a couple serious injuries to tourists, etc. Don't know the answer, but last week certainly changed my opinion a bit.


Maybe trails shouldn't be two way? Also what if the other rider was a phenomenally fit person going at the same speed on an XC bike? Ban them too?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> 90-95% of 20 minute power. I may be wrong but I think the majority of coaches and training programs use 95%. It depends on what type of athlete you are but either number could be right. I've done a lot of 20 minute tests and have always based my ftp at 95% of that.
> 
> I always questioned whether or not that was accurate but one day I really went for it for an hour and nearly exactly matched my ftp number. So for me 95% works out.


Thanks, you just raised my ftp by 12 watts. 
I guess I do deserve this  and icecream tonight after all as I reward for my hard earned gains. 

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

hambocairns said:


> Maybe trails shouldn't be two way? Also what if the other rider was a phenomenally fit person going at the same speed on an XC bike? Ban them too?


Not at all the same thing for a multitude of reasons.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

hambocairns said:


> Maybe trails shouldn't be two way? Also what if the other rider was a phenomenally fit person going at the same speed on an XC bike? Ban them too?


Our most popular single track XC climb had an on form world cup rider do a maximal 20 minute effort on it. The local E-bike riders have been trying to beat his time, nobody has been within a minute.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

ttengineer said:


> Man, I must be an absolute specimen of an animal at 230 lbs then because my FTP is 367 and I never train seriously and ride a stationary bike at most 3 days a week and get out on the trail at best twice a month.
> 
> 250w FTP is terribly low for anyone that trains seriously. Like abysmally low.


All about weight.

At 230lb an FTP of 367 is going to make you reasonably quick. But 50kg girl with an FTP 250 is absolutely going to ride circles around you.


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## ronhextall (Sep 13, 2015)

The websites I have looked at Manufacturer and LBS all seem to have zero inventory or say SOLD OUT.

finding a bike requires looking at every dealer in a multi state radius and still likely to find nothing. We also seem to be in the gray area of 2022 vs 2023 and it is difficult to know what is done vs what might get more inventory vs not even released yet


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ugh, as I posted, I ordered some Shimano SPDs the other day and everyone was out of them. I ended up buying them on Amazon. Now I see the seller was "Amazon Global Store UK", which has an address in Luxembourg, they left Spain, shipped by "Australia Global Post", went through Germany and are now in Amsterdam. They're saying they are arriving the 29th, ten days from now. Meanwhile, the listing has gone up over $30 since I purchased them (different seller).


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

alleged pro rider FTPs: What does a pro cyclist FTP look like? • ProCyclingUK.com


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## DFWXC (6 mo ago)

prj71 said:


> Yeah. Not the same. That thing won't be setting any sales records.
> 
> Mullet bike, no carbon frame option and proprietary shock system. You're average bike person isn't going to want to deal with maintenance on that shock and neither will the local bike shop. At least when shock maintenance needs to be done on the Trek you can bring it in to the local Trek dealer for service.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk



Curious what you think is difficult to maintain on that shock? 

It doesn't look bad to me, but I have rebuilt Cannondale Head Shoks before and lots of people feared those. I have rebuilt car engines before as well, so maybe I am not your average home bike mechanic.

Digit even shows a picture of all the tools needed, nothing elaborate required.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

ronhextall said:


> The websites I have looked at Manufacturer and LBS all seem to have zero inventory or say SOLD OUT.
> 
> finding a bike requires looking at every dealer in a multi state radius and still likely to find nothing. We also seem to be in the gray area of 2022 vs 2023 and it is difficult to know what is done vs what might get more inventory vs not even released yet


A local shop in Atlanta is having a huge sale. 25% off in stock SC 27.5 bikes, Ibis AF bikes, 50% off Kali helmets, 30% off 5Ten and RC shoes, and the list goes on. I think it just depends on the area you live in. Shops that do online sales tend to be out of stock more I think too since they have more exposure with google. 



chazpat said:


> Ugh, as I posted, I ordered some Shimano SPDs the other day and everyone was out of them. I ended up buying them on Amazon. Now I see the seller was "Amazon Global Store UK", which has an address in Luxembourg, they left Spain, shipped by "Australia Global Post", went through Germany and are now in Amsterdam. They're saying they are arriving the 29th, ten days from now. Meanwhile, the listing has gone up over $30 since I purchased them (different seller).


I ordered XTR pedals from an eBay seller 2 weeks ago that had a US warehouse and not only got the pedals in under a week, but also paid less than an XT pedal MSRP. I tend to like eBay though. If you know how to filter the junk, you usually get great service and prices. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## juan_speeder (May 11, 2008)

phantoj said:


> alleged pro rider FTPs: What does a pro cyclist FTP look like? • ProCyclingUK.com


A doped up Lance Armstrong was literally off the charts with 7.33 w/kg

In an interview with Peter Atilla, he said he could do 550w for an hour on epo, and 500w without - at 75kg


----------



## Vandals (Oct 21, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> Do you have any kids yourself? Or just making stuff up?
> 
> My son and most of his friends all grew up playing with 'hazardous' toys.
> Zero of them have ever complained about it. Free-range/semi-feral kids don't roll that way.


Hopefully someone else taught your kids how to read and think critically. 

I generalized about human behavior. I didn’t say all kids do this.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Vandals said:


> Hopefully someone else taught your kids how to read and think critically.
> 
> I generalized about human behavior. I didn’t say all kids do this.


"Generally" you're wrong when it comes to kids who are allowed to do things. 
They tend to grow up happy about it rather than complaining about it.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Nat said:


> We're discussing wattage and FTPs because that's SUPER interesting...


I did hear that 250W is lame.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

juan_speeder said:


> In an interview with Peter Atilla, he said he could do 550w for an hour on epo, and 500w without - at 75kg


Damn...that was a wonder drug for sure. I enjoy watching the old Lance racing highlights on the Youtubes from his doping days. He was absolutely flying on all of the major TdF climbs, almost effortlessly. EPO changed the game at that time.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

juan_speeder said:


> A doped up Lance Armstrong was literally off the charts with 7.33 w/kg
> 
> In an interview with Peter Atilla, he said he could do 550w for an hour on epo, and 500w without - at 75kg


I know I shouldn't be jealous, cause drugs, but dang I am. Those are just such insane numbers.


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## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

juan_speeder said:


> A doped up Lance Armstrong was literally off the charts with 7.33 w/kg
> 
> In an interview with Peter Atilla, he said he could do 550w for an hour on epo, and 500w without - at 75kg


I know the pros claim, "it hurts the same," but power like that would take the fun factor way up. I can think of some mild singletrack climbs that would be as fun as a DH with that type of power.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

So, those numbers don't make sense. 

Lance's times are on par with what guys are doing now (2022) at 6.2w/kg.









Vingegaard Ends the Tour de France 2022 on Hautacam - Lanterne Rouge


Jonas Vingegaard continued to show his impressive form on the final mountain day of an enthralling edition of the Tour de France. Stage 18 finished with the legendary Hautacam climb where Jonas Vingegaard took a big leap towards the overall victory by putting more than a minute into Tadej...




lanternerouge.com.au


----------



## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

Competitive Cyclist had a big on Ibis bikes last night apparently. I saw it on another thread but looked like some of them were 50% off and now they have some Pivots at 25% off. Could this be a sign of what's to cum?


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

trsmith4 said:


> Competitive Cyclist had a big on Ibis bikes last night apparently. I saw it on another thread but looked like some of them were 50% off and now they have some Pivots at 25% off. Could this be a sign of what's to cum?


Excuse me???


----------



## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

trsmith4 said:


> Competitive Cyclist had a big on Ibis bikes last night apparently. I saw it on another thread but looked like some of them were 50% off and now they have some Pivots at 25% off. Could this be a sign of what's to cum?


Ibis is moving warehouses so they put all their AF frames on 25% off. 

But I think pivot and Santa Cruz are all dropping new frames so naturally their bikes will go on sale as well. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

Nat said:


> Excuse me???


Here's what they have now:









Mountain Bikes & Frames - Full Suspension & Hard Tail | Competitive Cyclist


Find a wide range of custom and pre-built mountain bikes at Competitivecyclist.com. Choose from downhill to trail bike styles from top brands.




www.competitivecyclist.com


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## trsmith4 (Feb 9, 2021)

ttengineer said:


> Ibis is moving warehouses so they put all their AF frames on 25% off.
> 
> But I think pivot and Santa Cruz are all dropping new frames so naturally their bikes will go on sale as well.
> 
> ...


I don't think those effects would be seen yet. I've never seen a bike company discount their bikes before the new model was officially released. This looks like an over supply on certain models by Competive Cyclist's.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

the switchblade they have on sale doesn't look like a current color, and the geo's not right... unless they've screwed up the listing.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

trsmith4 said:


> Here's what they have now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is XL pivot 

Sent from my SM-S908W using Tapatalk


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## Glee217 (6 mo ago)

ttengineer said:


> A local shop in Atlanta is having a huge sale. 25% off in stock SC 27.5 bikes, Ibis AF bikes, 50% off Kali helmets, 30% off 5Ten and RC shoes, and the list goes on. I think it just depends on the area you live in. Shops that do online sales tend to be out of stock more I think too since they have more exposure with google.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


May I ask for the ebay link you bought the xtr from? I am weary since there are alot of non genuine bike parts. Thanks


----------



## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

Glee217 said:


> May I ask for the ebay link you bought the xtr from? I am weary since there are alot of non genuine bike parts. Thanks


Got them from this guy:









Ronde Cycling Store | eBay Stores






www.ebay.com





Looks like he’s out of stock on just about everything he has listed a few weeks ago. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

ttengineer said:


> Got them from this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He should be back in stock shortly. The Chinese shipping container is stuck at port.


----------



## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

hambocairns said:


> Maybe trails shouldn't be two way? Also what if the other rider was a phenomenally fit person going at the same speed on an XC bike? Ban them too?


We have a local trail that is one-way. Not a downhill run, but a fast level trail with lots of blind corners. It’s popular with runners and cyclists, and for the most part is an out and back loop. So it makes a lot of sense to have it be one way.


----------



## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

goldsbar said:


> I know the pros claim, "it hurts the same," but power like that would take the fun factor way up. I can think of some mild singletrack climbs that would be as fun as a DH with that type of power.


There’s a hurt when you are leading the charge, and a different hurt when you are being dropped.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

hambocairns said:


> Maybe trails shouldn't be two way?


Maybe people should slow down for blind corners, share the trails, and treat their fellow land owners with respect?


.


----------



## ZiggsterZaskar (Jul 25, 2021)

trsmith4 said:


> I think people need to stop calling electric dirt bikes ebikes. There is a big difference and I agree the e dirt bikes should not need to be on bike/hiking trails. If they were identified properly it would be much easier to get others on board but when you call them the same thing you just sound like a hater.
> [/QUOTE





ljsmith said:


> You aren't giving the bike manufacturers enough credit. Once they design the new short, high and steep bikes and all the web sites and magazines say you will be the laughing stock at the trail head with those low long and slack bikes, everyone will rush to the stores to get the latest cutting edge geometry bikes. Add in a few more new standards like 1 1/3" fork steer tubes, 30" wheels, extra super boost and 15.2mm axles to make all your existing bikes obsolete and the sales problem is solved.


Yes I bought a new intense Primer in 2020 but, I rode my 2012 26er up until I bought the primer and the primer is a 27.5....I agree with your remark on the industry dictating what we ride and what we buy and 99% of the people fall right in line and think the world revolves around a 29 inch wheel son to be replaced by 33" and up wheels not to mention the onslaught of E-bikes. I'm done with the current industry and have rebelled by rediscovering and collecting the made in the U.S.A. iconic brand 26er hardtails and the made in U.S.A aftermarket components that represent my roots in mtbing and having just as much fun with it as I do riding my intense


----------



## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

trsmith4 said:


> Competitive Cyclist had a big on Ibis bikes last night apparently. I saw it on another thread but looked like some of them were 50% off...


Apparently that was an error and CC is not honoring that price. It's in another thread on here and on other forums. The 25% seems to be valid though.


----------



## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> He should be back in stock shortly. The Chinese shipping container is stuck at port.


Aren’t they all at this point. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Guys,

If we all stop purchasing bikes for a year there will be a massive discount on bikes by this time next year.


----------



## ZiggsterZaskar (Jul 25, 2021)

ZiggsterZaskar said:


> Yes I bought a new intense Primer in 2020 but, I rode my 2012 26er up until I bought the primer and the primer is a 27.5....I agree with your remark on the industry dictating what we ride and what we buy and 99% of the people fall right in line and think the world revolves around a 29 inch wheel son to be replaced by 33" and up wheels not to mention the onslaught of E-bikes. I'm done with the current industry and have rebelled by rediscovering and collecting the made in the U.S.A. iconic brand 26er hardtails and the made in U.S.A aftermarket components that represent my roots in mtbing and having just as much fun with it as I do riding my intense


As a footnote to my last reply....yes I ride my vintage 26ers I mentioned but not the same way and where I ride my intense. I ride them as they were intended back in the day with maybe a little more diligence because of what they represent. Like I said this is my way of rebelling but still having fun and enjoying riding a bike


----------



## ironhippy (Nov 21, 2017)

_CJ said:


> Maybe people should slow down for blind corners, share the trails, and treat their fellow land owners with respect?


This is generally my approach, however I don't live near crowded trails so it's a lot easier for me.


----------



## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

Crankout said:


> Damn...that was a wonder drug for sure. I enjoy watching the old Lance racing highlights on the Youtubes from his doping days. He was absolutely flying on all of the major TdF climbs, almost effortlessly. EPO changed the game at that time.


The funny thing is during Lance's time at the top the doping was limited. During the time of Indurain, Riis, and Pantani the doping was all out, no test for EPO, no hematocrit testing, a lot less testing overall. Those guys were really flying.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Le Duke said:


> So, those numbers don't make sense.
> 
> Lance's times are on par with what guys are doing now (2022) at 6.2w/kg.


Um....yup. Hmmm.


----------



## Glee217 (6 mo ago)

ttengineer said:


> Got them from this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks but how would you know the parts are genuine? There are alot of fakes it is really surprises on what they can replicate these days.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

ttengineer said:


> Aren’t they all at this point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Jammed up in the Suez Canal...


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> The funny thing is during Lance's time at the top the doping was limited. During the time of Indurain, Riis, and Pantani the doping was all out, no test for EPO, no hematocrit testing, a lot less testing overall. Those guys were really flying.


My understanding is that doping was rampant during the Lance era.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Crankout said:


> My understanding is that doping was rampant during the Lance era.


In the modern times, has there been an era where some sort of PED wasn't used?


----------



## Glee217 (6 mo ago)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> He should be back in stock shortly. The Chinese shipping container is stuck at port.


How would you know the parts are genuine?


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Glee217 said:


> Who would you know the parts are genuine?


Yeah, that post was a joke. I guess I should have included a little dude winking emoji for confirmation.


----------



## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

Glee217 said:


> Thanks but how would you know the parts are genuine? There are alot of fakes it is really surprises on what they can replicate these days.


They aren’t fake. Came with all the appropriate shimano boxes, bags, instructions etc. plus I weighed them and the weight was within spec. 


Edit: he is also a Pinkbike seller and has stellar feedback on both eBay, and Pinkbike. 

But do what you want. With PayPal you’re protected. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

Crankout said:


> My understanding is that doping was rampant during the Lance era.


Doping was the norm in professional European cycling for a hundred years before Lance turned pro. Not the norm as in many cyclists doped but the norm as in nearly every professional cyclist doped. A European pro who was not doping was very unusual.

EPO use in cycling began in the late 80s. It reached its height in 1996. In 1997 cycling began testing for hematocrits above 50%. Before that there was no limit. When Pantani had an accident during Milan-Torino and was taken to a hospital, they measured his hematocrit in the mid fifties. Dr Conconi's records show riders like Ugramov with hematocrits over 60%. We can only guess what Indurain, a former client of Conconi, was racing at. That was an era of unrestricted blood doping. By the time you get to Lance's time at the top, hematocrits were being tested, an EPO test was used, and testing was vastly increased. Those guys had to dope rather moderately compared to mid 90s.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Doping was the norm in professional European cycling for a hundred years before Lance turned pro.


Interesting. What did they use back then, cocaine or something like that?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Nat said:


> Interesting. What did they use back then, cocaine or something like that?


Cocaine, amphetamines, etc.. all historically used in cycling. You got money on the line, you'll have cheating.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

dysfunction said:


> Cocaine, amphetamines, etc.. all historically used in cycling. You got money on the line, you'll have cheating.


I don't doubt it. You know that historic photo of the racers smoking cigarettes during some event? I wonder if they thought nicotine was performance-enhancing back then?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Nat said:


> I don't doubt it. You know that historic photo of the racers smoking cigarettes during some event? I wonder if they thought nicotine was performance-enhancing back then?


Why not, I've read that strychnine was! WTF?!


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Nat said:


> I don't doubt it. You know that historic photo of the racers smoking cigarettes during some event? I wonder if they thought nicotine was performance-enhancing back then?


I think the assumption was that a cigarette opened up the lungs for the climb, at least that is what i recall reading regarding that photo. 

Tom Simpson died on L'Alpe:

The post-mortem examination found that Simpson had taken amphetamine and alcohol, a diuretic combination which proved fatal when combined with the heat, the hard climb of the Ventoux, and the stomach complaint. 

You gotta do what you gotta do:


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

"In the world of bicycle racing, there are cheaters, and there are losers." I forget who said that, but it's accurate, and certainly far beyond just cycling.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

_CJ said:


> "In the world of bicycle racing, there are cheaters, and there are losers." I forget who said that, but it's accurate, and certainly far beyond just cycling.


Yes it does go with any form of racing.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

dysfunction said:


> In the modern times, has there been an era where some sort of PED wasn't used?


Rather ironically they consider pot a PED. Personally, I prefer people I race against use as much pot as possible before a race, it improves my chances.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

Cary said:


> Rather ironically they consider pot a PED. Personally, I prefer people I race against use as much pot as possible before a race, it improves my chances.


Boy not me. I don't want to be anywhere near some goofball under the influence of a mind altering drug while operating a vehicle.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Doping definitely isn't confined to professional cycling, I'd guess most pro athletes are on some sort of juice and the more money involved the more ped's. Even golf.

Also definitely not convinced the doping era (for cycling) is over and actually I'd be really surprised if it was. Just different prescriptions and alternate tactics.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ballisticexchris said:


> Boy not me. I don't want to be anywhere near some goofball under the influence of a mind altering drug while operating a vehicle.




Really? Never ridden with a toker?


Actually almost surely you have.


----------



## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Really? Never ridden with a toker?
> 
> 
> Actually almost surely you have.


Not deliberately. Altering the mind to deal with life is for losers. Not to mention speech, thinking and motor skills go out the window. We all have choices. I choose to deal with what life has for me and enjoy it with my head clear. Unlike those who are cowards that behind drugs or alcohol to deal with everyday living. 

Riding and using weed? Really? How deplorable and weak humans have become when they can't even handle a simple bicycle ride without lighting up or chugging down booze.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ballisticexchris said:


> Not deliberately. Altering the mind to deal with life is for losers.




Wow, straight edge. Never had a beer? Coffee? Soda?


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Wow, straight edge. Never had a beer? Coffee? Soda?


When I was much younger and dumber. These days I'm not much smarter but I offset dumber by keeping it straight.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Gonna go listen to Minor Threat now.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Do NOT ride with this guy!


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> View attachment 2001152
> 
> 
> 
> Do NOT ride with this guy!


Pretty sure I've seen him behind the 930 club back in the day.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

ballisticexchris said:


> Not deliberately. Altering the mind to deal with life is for losers. Not to mention speech, thinking and motor skills go out the window. We all have choices. I choose to deal with what life has for me and enjoy it with my head clear. Unlike those who are cowards that behind drugs or alcohol to deal with everyday living.
> 
> Riding and using weed? Really? How deplorable and weak humans have become when they can't even handle a simple bicycle ride without lighting up or chugging down booze.


This is legitimately idiotic. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

Suns_PSD said:


> This is legitimately idiotic.


For those who use drugs I could not agree more!! Very idiotic indeed. Thank you for supporting my positive view on life. Most productive citizens like you and I loathe losers and dregs who can't handle life without altering their mind. Much appreciated Sir!!


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

Maybe time to close this thread?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Like, mellow OUT man! killing my buzz 🤐


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Monty219 said:


> Maybe time to close this thread?


Yea. It's harshing my mellow too.


----------



## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

ballisticexchris said:


> For those who use drugs I could not agree more!! Very idiotic indeed. Thank you for supporting my positive view on life. Most productive citizens like you and I loathe losers and dregs who can't handle life without altering their mind. Much appreciated Sir!!


Here’s an idea, let let people do what ever the F they want so long as they are not harming the rights of others. 

Sex, drugs, speech, politics, religion etc. who cares what someone else thinks or does so long as the non-aggression principle is used, which states that no human being holds the right to initiate force or fraud against the person or property of another human being under any circumstances. 

I may think your view of drugs, which I do not partake in, is archaic, antiquated, foolish, and closed minded, but I’m certainly fine with you feeling that way so long as you abide with the non aggression principle. 

I’ll say this though, one of the absolute best humans I know in every way when it comes to productivity, charity, love, and overall betters society every day is the biggest drug user I’ve ever met. I honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen him not high. So generalization is generally not a smart move. You know what they say when you assume. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

Monty219 said:


> Maybe time to close this thread?


Why do that? At least we are discussing for something productive instead of arguing E-Bikes. I can't imagine the moderators wanting to shut down a thread because a few members like *Suns_PSD *and myself are against illegal and illicit drug use. 

Now if some feeble minded moronic dimwit wants to destroy brain cells and lungs in the comfort of their home, I could not agree more. Not operating vehicles, in the workforce or being in public. 



ttengineer said:


> I’ll say this though, one of the absolute best humans I know in every way when it comes to productivity, charity, love, and overall betters society every day is the biggest drug user I’ve ever met.


Drugs are for losers. Anyone who thinks different has their head in the sand or is a user themselves. The charity part I agree with. It goes straight to to profit of dealer, pharmaceutical company, weed store, or liquor store that sells it.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Pro tip: no one really likes judgmental diatribes.


----------



## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

ballisticexchris said:


> Why do that? At least we are discussing for something productive instead of arguing E-Bikes. I can't imagine the moderators wanting to shut down a thread because a few members like *Suns_PSD *and myself are against illegal and illicit drug use.
> 
> Now if some feeble minded moronic dimwit wants to destroy brain cells and lungs in the comfort of their home, I could not agree more. Not operating vehicles, in the workforce or being in public.
> 
> ...


You might want to get out more. 

Drugs, in all forms are everywhere and the largest dealer around is the doctor down the street. 

Abusing drugs or any substance for that matter is never a good idea, but I couldn’t care less what another individual wants to do with their time. You shouldn’t either. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

dysfunction said:


> Pro tip: no one really likes judgmental diatribes.


Pot calling the kettle black here.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Interesting. Telling people how to act also doesn't go far. I'm clearly not alone in this opinion


----------



## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

J.B. Weld said:


> Doping definitely isn't confined to professional cycling, I'd guess most pro athletes are on some sort of juice and the more money involved the more ped's. Even golf.
> 
> Also definitely not convinced the doping era (for cycling) is over and actually I'd be really surprised if it was. Just different prescriptions and alternate tactics.


I read an article about how a racer with good intentions eventually gets to doping. The pressure on the pros (and aspiring pros) is enormous, and if you think everyone else is, you probably will rationalize it for yourself. It’s hard to define all the lines and contours of “doping” vs supplementing (can you inject vitamins?) Are there bodily mechanisms you can take advantage of with something not quite as obvious or brute force as EPO for making RBC? Where does diet and training cross a line? Can we allow a certain drug at a certain dose for therapeutic use for a certain rider with a certain diagnosis, but not allow for others?


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Dunnigan said:


> I read an article about how a racer with good intentions eventually gets to doping. The pressure on the pros (and aspiring pros) is enormous, and if you think everyone else is, you probably will rationalize it for yourself. It’s hard to define all the lines and contours of “doping” vs supplementing (can you inject vitamins?) Are there bodily mechanisms you can take advantage of with something not quite as obvious or brute force as EPO for making RBC? Where does diet and training cross a line? Can we allow a certain drug at a certain dose for therapeutic use for a certain rider with a certain diagnosis, but not allow for others?


Altitude. 

There’s a reason all the big Euro pros go to altitude camps before big racing blocks. Blood values increase across the board.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

ballisticexchris said:


> Boy not me. I don't want to be anywhere near some goofball under the influence of a mind altering drug while operating a vehicle.


Clearly you have never gone downhilling. A lot of stoned riders. Also a lot that take part on the trail, people you probably never realized. All I know is if I tried riding stoned or after a drink, I am pretty sure I would crash right about the first corner.


----------



## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

ballisticexchris said:


> Not deliberately. Altering the mind to deal with life is for losers. Not to mention speech, thinking and motor skills go out the window. We all have choices. I choose to deal with what life has for me and enjoy it with my head clear. Unlike those who are cowards that behind drugs or alcohol to deal with everyday living.
> 
> Riding and using weed? Really? How deplorable and weak humans have become when they can't even handle a simple bicycle ride without lighting up or chugging down booze.


To each their own. As long as they are not hurting others, who are we to pass judgment on other’s choices?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I had a cowardly beer with my enchiladas this evening. Judge away.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nat said:


> I had a cowardly beer with my enchiladas this evening. Judge away.




loser


----------



## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

Cary said:


> Clearly you have never gone downhilling. A lot of stoned riders. Also a lot that take part on the trail, people you probably never realized. All I know is if I tried riding stoned or after a drink, I am pretty sure I would crash right about the first corner.


I have ridden in a lot of different disciplines and I can spot those losers a mile off. I do not nor will not ever ride or drive with someone under the influence. As far as I'm concerned a downhill rider who wants to pollute their brain before a run deserves to wad up. 



Cary said:


> To each their own. As long as they are not hurting others, who are we to pass judgment on other’s choices?


My point exactly. Unfortunately when I have to share the road or trail with them I draw the line as it effects mine and my loved ones safety.


----------



## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

Nat said:


> I had a cowardly beer with my enchiladas this evening. Judge away.


Hey you're at home and not driving so good on ya'!


----------



## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

Le Duke said:


> Altitude.
> 
> There’s a reason all the big Euro pros go to altitude camps before big racing blocks. Blood values increase across the board.
> 
> ...


Live high, train low, right? Are altitude simulation chambers allowed, or effective? I know there are tents to reduce oxygen at lower altitudes, but they don’t reduce air pressure like true altitude would.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

Dunnigan said:


> Live high, train low, right? Are altitude simulation chambers allowed, or effective? I know there are tents to reduce oxygen at lower altitudes, but they don’t reduce air pressure like true altitude would.


I know that a lot of marathon runners and triathletes go into the mountains and train hard months leading up to event.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> loser


I wonder what I was hiding from?


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Cary said:


> Clearly you have never gone downhilling. A lot of stoned riders. Also a lot that take part on the trail, people you probably never realized. All I know is if I tried riding stoned or after a drink, I am pretty sure I would crash right about the first corner.


Now that there is this I think the question has been answered, we have reached the peak.

Mini bic lighter plus a one-hitter…


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

ballisticexchris said:


> Altering the mind to deal with life is for losers.


What about altering the mind to deal with losers?


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## mtbfree (Aug 20, 2015)

ballisticexchris said:


> I have ridden in a lot of different disciplines and I can spot those losers a mile off. I do not nor will not ever ride or drive with someone under the influence. As far as I'm concerned a downhill rider who wants to pollute their brain before a run deserves to wad up.
> 
> 
> 
> My point exactly. Unfortunately when I have to share the road or trail with them I draw the line as it effects mine and my loved ones safety.


How do you draw the line? You forbid them to ride/drive where you are? Just thinking they are thrash in reality does nothing, they still drive/ride where they ride/drive. I think you need some law enforcment help to achieve anything with effect


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ballisticexchris said:


> I offset dumber by keeping it straight.


Not really.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Reality is for people who can't handle drugs and alcohol. Grow up dude, fine to make your choices, but the attitude regarding others who don't agree is pretty juvenile.


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## ironhippy (Nov 21, 2017)

ballisticexchris said:


> I have ridden in a lot of different disciplines and I can spot those losers a mile off.


you might be surprised. I've seen riders on a marathon XC ride smoke pot and eat edibles the entire time. It was a recovery ride for them and they mentioned that "the pot helps keep the pace lower".

I guess I wouldn't call them "under the influence" as they were regular smokers and unless you saw them smoking pot you wouldn't realize they were "stoned"


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtbfree said:


> How do you draw the line? You forbid them to ride/drive where you are?


He rides on the sidewalk.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

We haven't reached the peak, but we're getting pretty high


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Doping definitely isn't confined to professional cycling, I'd guess most pro athletes are on some sort of juice and the more money involved the more ped's. Even golf.


Hell, I think a lot of the contestants on Jeopardy! are on performance enhancing drugs. With some you can really see it in their eyes, and their behavior. Definitely on something. It never even occurred to me until I read about how many people are taking Aderol or whatever in college and even in the workplace.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Cary said:


> Clearly you have never gone downhilling. A lot of stoned riders.


Surprising since he did say he's been mountain biking since long before those dumb stoners started shuttling. 
You'd think he'd have at least tried it once in his 50+ years of MTB. Weird. 🤷‍♂️


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Reality is for people who can't handle drugs and alcohol. Grow up dude, fine to make your choices, but the attitude regarding others who don't agree is pretty juvenile.


When you're so much smarterer and betterer than everyone else you get to rock whatever attitude you wants.


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## ironhippy (Nov 21, 2017)

Nat said:


> Interesting. What did they use back then, cocaine or something like that?


there is a great book called "Spitting in the Soup" that covers the general history of doping in sports. It mentions the use of strychnine because it numbed the muscles (it also paralyzed them so it wasn't overly effective in reality) 

The (reborn) Olympics (and anti doping) was basically created as a way to keep the lower classes out of competitive sports.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

Honestly, I think doping should be allowed, maybe a separate division or category. I want to see the absolute maximum a human can do. 

Just like in off road racing, you have a stock division and an unlimited division. 



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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

ttengineer said:


> Honestly, I think doping should be allowed, maybe a separate division or category. I want to see the absolute maximum a human can do.
> 
> Just like I’m off road racing, you have a stock division and an unlimited division.


In many ways it used to be a lot more fair when the riders were left to their own devices. Now some countries take a hard line while other countries turn a blind eye. The only thing taking down Lance did was eviscerate U.S. pro cycling and pave the way for doping at Team Sky. When Sky was found to have been receiving shipments of testosterone, using bogus therapeutic use exemptions, hiring a dope doctor, the UK officials ignored it. It has become a farce now.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> In many ways it used to be a lot more fair when the riders were left to their own devices. Now some countries take a hard line while other countries turn a blind eye. The only thing taking down Lance did was eviscerate U.S. pro cycling and pave the way for doping at Team Sky. When Sky was found to have been receiving shipments of testosterone, using bogus therapeutic use exemptions, hiring a dope doctor, the UK officials ignored it. It has become a farce now.


Exactly. 

Just allow it, but in a separate division. 

And allow all those crazy bike designs too. Like the old Trek Foil. Let’s see what is possible without any limitations. 


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## ronhextall (Sep 13, 2015)

Insert "Thread off the rails GIF here"


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Genetic engineering will soon render PED's obsolete.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Doping was the norm in professional European cycling for a hundred years before Lance turned pro. Not the norm as in many cyclists doped but the norm as in nearly every professional cyclist doped. A European pro who was not doping was very unusual.
> 
> EPO use in cycling began in the late 80s. It reached its height in 1996. In 1997 cycling began testing for hematocrits above 50%. Before that there was no limit. When Pantani had an accident during Milan-Torino and was taken to a hospital, they measured his hematocrit in the mid fifties. Dr Conconi's records show riders like Ugramov with hematocrits over 60%. We can only guess what Indurain, a former client of Conconi, was racing at. That was an era of unrestricted blood doping. By the time you get to Lance's time at the top, hematocrits were being tested, an EPO test was used, and testing was vastly increased. Those guys had to dope rather moderately compared to mid 90s.


Gotcha. I guess I was aligning Lance's era with the EPO boom. I know that he and the USPS team relied on T and blood doping, too. He became legendary for being part of the most organized squads in regards to doping. 

Even though it's decades old now, it continues to fascinate me. Tyler Hamilton gave the most concise run down of how it operated as far as I can tell.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

_CJ said:


> "In the world of bicycle racing, there are cheaters, and there are losers." I forget who said that, but it's accurate, and certainly far beyond just cycling.


I mean, just look at the data from the current young pro's and what they've done on the world tour circuit. Some say that it's not possible to perform at that level without PEDs.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

ballisticexchris said:


> For those who use drugs I could not agree more!! Very idiotic indeed. Thank you for supporting my positive view on life. Most productive citizens like you and I loathe losers and dregs who can't handle life without altering their mind. Much appreciated Sir!!


You're approach is rough. Almost like Nurse Ben's approach to sugary sweets.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Monty219 said:


> Maybe time to close this thread?


Nah...this is when things get good.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

phantoj said:


> We haven't reached the peak, but we're getting pretty high


Help me, I have tripped and can’t get down.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Nat said:


> I wonder what I was hiding from?


Ballistic Chris


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

"Only cowardly losers drink or use drugs". Imagine what they could achieve if they stayed the straight and narrow, and followed all the rules.


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

_CJ said:


> "Only cowardly losers drink or use drugs". Imagine what they could achieve if they stayed the straight and narrow, and followed all the rules.


To be fair, over the last few years Musk has become more and more erratic. He has gone off the deep end. Drugs, alcohol, fame going to his head? Who knows but there is something wrong with that dude.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> To be fair, over the last few years Musk has become more and more erratic. He has gone off the deep end. Drugs, alcohol, fame going to his head? Who knows but there is something wrong with that dude.


Most ultra successful people are that way. 

You don’t make billions being like everyone else. 


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