# The Battery Thread 2016 and Beyond



## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Since the old thread about batteries goes back into 2013 it is time to start new one (thanks Cat). I'm going to structure it a bit differently and try to keep all important things in the first two posts.

This thread should be used as a guide how/where to get good battery packs and all their technical characteristics. Please avoid endless discussions about nonrelated stuff and try to *keep this thread clean and on topic*.

If anyone wants me to update or add something important to all readers, specialy the begginers, write it down and/or send me a PM, will try to act promptly.

In the post #2 I'm going to list links and reviews about batteries. Don't expect to be all there right away. If you miss one, tell me.

Also important thing, we are members from all over the world, not just the USA. So when giving advices or some comments think of members not living in the USA. So some things can be good for someone but not for all. On the other hand someone asking for advice should tell where (aprox.) is comming from so the answers might be more directed not just some general or not relevant. Thank you.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

*Reserved*

Reserved for links, etc...
* Disclaimer: Ordering from any of the sources below is at your own risk. There might be some mistakes and outdated links.

*Old 2013 thread*: 
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/battery-thread-2013-a-834295.html

*China sources*:

Kaidomain: kaidomain.com/bike-lights-and-bike-accessories/battery-packs
Hunk [email protected]: items in store on eBay!
Gearbest: Rechargeable Batteries - Best Rechargeable Batteries and Flashlight*Batteries Deals | GearBest.com
Extension cable: http://www.kaidomain.com/p/S024776.5_5mm-x-2_1mm-Male-to-Female-20AWG-Extension-Cable-100cm-Length

*US sources*:

Action-Led: BATTERIES ? Action-LED-Lights
mtbRevolution: Batteries

*Reviews*:

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...ck-kaidomain-com-reasonable-price-995303.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/2s1p-8-4v-3500mah-battery-pack-kaidomain-999743.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...tery-pack-kaidomain-1000490.html#post12414316
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/6x-ncr18650b-10200mah-8-4v-pack-999562.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/fenix-ba4c-case-found-946922.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...tant-4-x-18650-battery-case-bicyc-943638.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...terproof-bicycle-battery-packs-gb-982688.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...os-4-cell-10-400mah-battery-pack-1070008.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/rockbros-2-cell-battery-pack-review-1079861.html

*Educational stuff*:

Basic to Advanced Battery Information from Battery University
Lithium-based Batteries Information ? Battery University
Types of Lithium-ion Batteries ? Battery University
Portable Batteries Cycle Performance ? Battery University
Safety Concerns with Li-ion Batteries ? Battery University
BU-304b: Making Lithium-ion Safe ? Battery University
Charging Lithium-Ion Batteries ? Battery University
How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University
BU-702: How to Store Batteries ? Battery University
BU-803a: Cell Matching and Balancing ? Battery University
BU-809: How to Maximize Runtime ? Battery University
etc.....

Edit 4th, Mar.2018: Added ROCKBROS 4-Cell review to the list above

More to be added..... tell me what to add.

PS. If you find my work of some value there is star below to be used


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Good show ledoman! I like how you structured this. Going forward this should be the place people go for battery information. I know you wanted to keep most information in the first two posts but as you go along this might become a problem. When I started the first Battery thread that was kind of my intent as well but unfortunately I found out after about two weeks or so that I was not able to edit the OP. Seems MTBR puts a time limit on how long you can edit a post. In order to edit after two weeks you have to become a moderator or get a moderator to do the editing. ( unless they have changed things since then )...just a heads up.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Thanks Cat! Will see what happens. Mostly I'm going to edit post #2 not the OP so this might work out. If getting into truouble I will contact admin otherwise I can always start new thread and use copy/paste. And maybe I just need more reputation points


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

I'm still unable to add more +rep's to you, but sure others will do that. 

BTW, is it really necessary to list 11 links to the Battery University? IMHO, single one is quite enough...


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Well, it is not necessary but there is a lot of reading and people tends to get scared with all that stuff so I've choosen topics they should read. It is easier for them seeing relevant topics. And not all know what to look for.


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

Ok.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Ok, transporting my question from the old thread to this one:

"Anyone tried using Sub C batteries with bike lights? if so, how big of mAh they can go?" Is something like this could work?
Panasonic Battery Sub C 1 2V 3000mAh Soldering Lug Z Shape Aku Battery | eBay
I'm considering stacking them up inside the Steerer tube of my bike, but I would need to figure it out how the create the connections. "

*
Reply from ledoman:*

_OK. Let stay for a moment here, regardless there is new battery thread. I should post it here.

Yes I think it is possible to use those cells stacked, but there are few things to tell/ask.

1. If the chemistry (don't want Li-Ion) is of main concern then good Ni-Mh can be used
2. Energy wise Li-Ion are much better. For example same 3000mAh Li-Ion cell has 3.7V nominal and weigts 45gr while this Ni-Mh has 1.2V and weights 58gr. So the ratio is higher than 3/1.
3. You would need to stack from 3 to 6 Ni-Mh cells (depends on light and driver) which would be long from 135 to 270mm while Li-ion would be from 70-140mm.
4. To stack them I would use capton tape to isolate wiring and nickel or copper stripes and solder to the tabs.

Hope it helps._

My answer:

_


ledoman said:



Energy wise Li-Ion are much better. For example same 3000mAh Li-Ion cell has 3.7V nominal and weigts 45gr while this Ni-Mh has 1.2V and weights 58gr. So the ratio is higher than 3/1.
*Very good point*

3. You would need to stack from 3 to 6 Ni-Mh cells (depends on light and driver) which would be long from 135 to 270mm while Li-ion would be from 70-140mm. 
*go it!*

Click to expand...

Ok let me forget about Sub C then. Going back to the best of best 18650 3400 MAh Panasonic's, I can fit 3 of them inside the Steerer tube, not the ideal 4x. _ 3x of 3400MAh would be enough to power a 8x LED Head unit?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

You should tell us much more about your light or send a link. In general there you need 1 battery cell per led to get somewhat decent runtime. Of course it really much depends on the power you need/want.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

So I purchased these...suppose to be 3400 mAh...but this is what the display shows me a full charge. Something is wrong right?


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

andrepsz said:


> So I purchased these...suppose to be 3400 mAh...but this is what the display shows me a full charge. Something is wrong right?


The display on that charger is showing how much was put into the battery to bring them up to full charge, so assuming those were brand new batteries which usually come with a 50% charge, that looks about right.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

kwarwick said:


> The display on that charger is showing how much was put into the battery to bring them up to full charge, so assuming those were brand new batteries which usually come with a 50% charge, that looks about right.


That is very helpful! I was about to complain to the seller, thanks


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

You should use TEST feature on this charger to get capacity readings. BTW, BT-C3100 would show you a bit more than it is real. I would say about 5-10%, depends on resistors used in particular sample.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

ledoman said:


> You should use TEST feature on this charger to get capacity readings. BTW, BT-C3100 would show you a bit more than it is real. I would say about 5-10%, depends on resistors used in particular sample.


This is the test reading from the original batteries coming with my light (not Panasonic). By weighting the batteries some where around 30g and I mistrust the real capacity on them (suppose to be 3400 mAh).


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Doesn't look like the test is done in that photo. Looks to be in progress.

-Garry


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

I'm new to batteries...figure of get this charger to learn faster! Any input from you guys is much appreciated...thanks!


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## MK96 (Nov 5, 2012)

OK, to put it in the right way. My protected Panasonic cell weights about 49-53g, I guess the protection can't do the 23g. You can post the link where you get yours from. Might be helpful for others. And I post another useful link for cells and chargers reviews. Yes, it was posted many times here on forum:

Battery test-review 18650 summary


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## IronMac (Jan 4, 2016)

I am seriously considering the new battery packs that Ledoman and Kaidomain have been working on. I was wondering what are people's preference for a SAFE charger for them? Thanks!

BTW, the battery packs are for my two Designshine lights.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I'm not aware of any cheap and safe charger that works at higher currents (ie.2-3A). Maybe some of the guys here would direct you to some sources. It also depends where on the planet you live. Maybe you can find something here: http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...li-ion-charger-2sxp-battery-packs-944978.html


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## IronMac (Jan 4, 2016)

Thanks for the quick reply ledoman! I know that I can order chargers from the Chinese firms such as Hunk Lee (sp?) but am not sure about the quality. An alternative would be from Gemini Lights but the shipping from Victoria, BC to Singapore where I now reside would be crazy in relation to the value of the charger. I might as well order their batteries at the same time too! hehehe


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

The charger of Hunk Lee looks pretty much the same as the one I've tested. Of course I can't say internals are the same, but price wise it better to be good. 
I'm going to try to arrange some charger at Kaidomain, but it might take quite some time.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

MK96 said:


> OK, to put it in the right way. My protected Panasonic cell weights about 49-53g, I guess the protection can't do the 23g. You can post the link where you get yours from. Might be helpful for others. And I post another useful link for cells and chargers reviews. Yes, it was posted many times here on forum:
> 
> Battery test-review 18650 summary


Charger was purchased from here:
http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/390881839694

And Panasonic batteries from here:
http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/111845715744


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Ok so here is an 'case study': left these batteries on 'discharge refresh' mode for a long time, I understand this mode suppose to discharge and charge 3 times to fix any memory issues on the cells...correct? This is the reading a got at the end of the process.

Status NULL wasn't showing in the beginning and I started all 4 at the same time.

What interpretation should I have from this process? 









Batteries on charger:


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## nathan89 (Feb 7, 2015)

..that ultrafire are crap? Like you should already know this. Search around and you'll see that those batteries tend to contain a very small cell and rest is filled with flour or something :|


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

nathan89 said:


> ..that ultrafire are crap? Like you should already know this. Search around and you'll see that those batteries tend to contain a very small cell and rest is filled with flour or something :|


Yes I Know. I got some Panasonic 3400 mAh to replace these. Aware of the poor quality on ultrafires I'm running them on this charger to understand how to identify those issues...any help is appreciated! I'm new to batteries.


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## MK96 (Nov 5, 2012)

OK, it US seller. Do the full test with panasonics, charger seems to be working and xxx-fire cells are usually crap (400-800mAh is normal to get from it) The full discharge refresh should read around 2800-3000mAh with Pana cells.



andrepsz said:


> Charger was purchased from here:
> BT C3100 Li ion 18650 Battery Analyzer Tester REFRESH Charger Discharge NiMH | eBay
> 
> And Panasonic batteries from here:
> Brand New "4" Panasonic NCR18650B 3 7V 3400mAh Battery 18650 w Case | eBay


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Just running "Test" mode at 500mA current (or 1000mA if you are pretty sure they are quality batteries) should be sufficient. Even a 500mA test will identify Ultrafires or fake batteries. Don't get concerned if a 3,400mAh claimed battery tests at say 3,000mAh; you're looking for drastically lower capacities. You can also compare to user HKJ's tests/reviews here: Flashlight information .

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

andrepsz, I just don't get it. You are running all but TEST feature which will only get you information you are looking for. Refresh feature is worthless with Li-Ion batteries. It is meant for Ni-Mh type of cells. On the pictures I don't seen any result from the first attempt. To bad this charger shows results after full discharge at recharging stage. TEST mode consists of charge/discharge/charge cycle.

I would advise you to test only two cells at a time. Use 2 outer bays and set them to 2000mAh. This will make TEST at 1000mAh. You will shorten process very much and you'll faster get results. From two you'll already aprox. know for the others.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks Ledoman ...I don't get it...that's why I'm here! Have a lot on my plate right now with family, two kids under 3 to raise, work and projects...don't really have time to dig deep the Internet to master the knowledge on batteries. I will appreciate a lot any feedback from this thread that can speed up my understanding in this field. 

Ok...I will run the next test using your advice thanks.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Stick around and don't miss figures after discharge part. It should happen around 3 hours after discharge part starts.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

garrybunk said:


> Just running "Test" mode at 500mA current (or 1000mA if you are pretty sure they are quality batteries) should be sufficient. Even a 500mA test will identify Ultrafires or fake batteries. Don't get concerned if a 3,400mAh claimed battery tests at say 3,000mAh; you're looking for drastically lower capacities. You can also compare to user HKJ's tests/reviews here: Flashlight information .
> 
> -Garry


Thanks Garry!


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## MK96 (Nov 5, 2012)

I am still wondering why your cells weigh 30g. Do the test and let us know the result if you have a bit of time. I know 3yo kids need a lot of time ;-)


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## nathan89 (Feb 7, 2015)

..because they're the "fake" ultrafire, that contain a small lithium cell and the rest is filled with flour, watch here:


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## MK96 (Nov 5, 2012)

Naaah, I've lost a bit in this and thought Pana cells were about 30g. Sure, the xxx-fire cells that weigh less are fake and low capacity.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Added review of a 2S1P pack from Kaidomain:
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/2s1p-8-4v-3500mah-battery-pack-kaidomain-999743.html

Edit:
Added to the list of reviews also: http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/6x-ncr18650b-10200mah-8-4v-pack-999562.html


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

MK96 said:


> Naaah, I've lost a bit in this and thought Pana cells were about 30g. Sure, the xxx-fire cells that weigh less are fake and low capacity.


Panasonic cells are 46-47grams each, just weighed ncr18650b and ncr18650ga on my scale to be sure.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

MK96 said:


> I am still wondering why your cells weigh 30g. Do the test and let us know the result if you have a bit of time. I know 3yo kids need a lot of time ;-)


They do! 30g was on the ultrafire's.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Left these brand new pana cells on my bike light all day long to let it discharge then full charge to see the numbers, quite happy to see that even exceeded the claimed 3400mAh. 
I'm just wondering why the last cell had such a different discharge rate than the others?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Its because they were unbalanced. What is very concerning is it seems you well over discharged them. The cells shouldn't have exceeded capacity, they actually should come up a bit short.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

tigris99 said:


> Its because they were unbalanced. What is very concerning is it seems you well over discharged them. The cells shouldn't have exceeded capacity, they actually should come up a bit short.


The light was actually still going on but low when I took the batteries out. It wasn't fully discharged.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Are they protected cells?


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

tigris99 said:


> Are they protected cells?


Good question, those green pana cells all should be protected right? here is the link from where I got them: 
Brand New "4" Panasonic NCR18650B 3 7V 3400mAh Battery 18650 w Case | eBay


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## MK96 (Nov 5, 2012)

No, these are unprotected.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Omg.....



You just trashed your cells. You can't just use these like any other battery. They have a minimum discharge voltage and such, just because they still power a light doesn't mean their not dead. CANNOT EVER GO BELOW 2.5V PER CELL. Preferably for safety not below 3v per cell at rest (2.5V under load)



Need to have those cells properly disposed of before they start leaking gel.

What you just did is exactly how people burn half their houses down or end up with poisoning from the gel, BY MAKING ASSUMPTIONS and messing with things (thus doing it wrong) they haven't taken the time to learn how to use.


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## mentawais (Feb 16, 2005)

Ledman , can I use this charger of hunk lee to charge my 6 pack batery from Kaidoman?


ledoman said:


> The charger of Hunk Lee looks pretty much the same as the one I've tested. Of course I can't say internals are the same, but price wise it better to be good.
> I'm going to try to arrange some charger at Kaidomain, but it might take quite some time.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes you can. If you are going to buy this one, please report it back what is it's actual output voltage. It would be valuable information to the other users. Please use some Digital Multimeter to measure voltage.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

tigris99 said:


> Omg.....
> You just trashed your cells.  You can't just use these like any other battery. They have a minimum discharge voltage and such, just because they still power a light doesn't mean their not dead. CANNOT EVER GO BELOW 2.5V PER CELL. Preferably for safety not below 3v per cell at rest (2.5V under load)
> 
> Need to have those cells properly disposed of before they start leaking gel.
> ...


Tig, I don't think there was some big problem. Maybe you missed my note that BT-C3100 chargers has somewhat to high readings. Also charging part has some looses.

And we don't know what was happening there for shure. Only andrepsz could tell some details and what was their voltage. It is also unknow if they were at rest for some time or went immediately to the charger. Voltage raise to some degree when cells are left to rest for some time.
The forth cell can be still good. It might be there was bad contact or something and it wasn't fully discharged. 
andrepsz should also tell what is his battery pack setup and/or what lights he is using. We don't know nothing about them.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

ledoman said:


> Tig, I don't think there was some big problem. Maybe you missed my note that BT-C3100 chargers has somewhat to high readings. Also charging part has some looses.
> 
> And we don't know what was happening there for shure. Only andrepsz could tell some details and what was their voltage. It is also unknow if they were at rest for some time or went immediately to the charger. Voltage raise to some degree when cells are left to rest for some time.
> The forth cell can be still good. It might be there was bad contact or something and it wasn't fully discharged.
> andrepsz should also tell what is his battery pack setup and/or what lights he is using. We don't know nothing about them.


Skyray King 8xcree , with pana batteries in it.

Cells went straight from the light to charger with no rest, they are new. Like I said before they were still holding up some decent light right before putting in the charger...I'm quite surprised by the number as well, shouldn't be that high.


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## MK96 (Nov 5, 2012)

I had li-ion cells from a failed laptop pc battery, they are about 8 years now. Heavily discharged Sanyos to anything around 0-1 Volts unloaded. I've put them in the charger to test and charge with a very low current and saved 3 from 6. The 0V were dead the other with higher voltage are just fine and sit at 2200mAh now with no signs of damage and good discharge curve. Suspicious might be the cell on the right side of the photo that got actually only 2500mAh charge. You might test that one - do a chage/discharge/charge to see what is left in it. If the 3400 Pana has only 2500mAh left, it might be slightly damaged.


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## MK96 (Nov 5, 2012)

If the King uses cells in parallel at least the current was distributed between the 4 cells equally. Just test the cells properly (do charge test and quick test to get capacity and internal resistance) in the Opus charger if they have some sign of damage.



andrepsz said:


> Skyray King 8xcree , with pana batteries in it.
> 
> Cells went straight from the light to charger with no rest, they are new. Like I said before they were still holding up some decent light right before putting in the charger...I'm quite surprised by the number as well, shouldn't be that high.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

andrepsz, now you only need to show us how your light looks inside. Does it have battery holder and in what setup the cells are put in. Are in series or in parallel. 

I can speculate all cells are in parallel and the forth one had bad contact.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

ledoman said:


> andrepsz, now you only need to show us how your light looks inside. Does it have battery holder and in what setup the cells are put in. Are in seriaes or in parallel.
> 
> I can speculate all cells are in parallel and the forth one had bad contact.


Look above, Skyray King.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

There is so many Skyray kings out there and they are Chinese so you never know....


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

ledoman said:


> There is so many Skyray kings out there and they are Chinese so you never know....


full tittle on the light was: 'Skyray King 9800 Lumens 8x CREE XM-L XML T6 LED Flashlight Spotlight Hunting Lamp Tactical Torch Light Aluminum Alloy Searchlight Lantern For Outdoor'

I know it can't be 9800 Lumens but after some research looks like each Led can generate 1000...so this one is 8000 for sure...right? please say yes!


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## MK96 (Nov 5, 2012)

It is really little more difficult than you think. Chinese light specs vary from batch to batch and there exist a bunch of their clones where they go as cheap as they can. Cree XM-L LEDs are capable to output 1000lm but at [email protected] and that means 10W of power needed. If you have 8 LEDs then math do 80W of total consumed power and there is some overhead for the electronic circuit that drives these LEDs and you can end up with 100W. I would guess King might be 30W.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

OK, here is battery thread. Andrepsz again, why can't you tell what I'm asking. Open your light and see how the battery container is constructed. If you don't know, make some pictures so we could find out. This is essential to uderstand how things are working.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

ledoman said:


> OK, here is battery thread. Andrepsz again, why can't you tell what I'm asking. Open your light and see how the battery container is constructed. If you don't know, make some pictures so we could find out. This is essential to uderstand how things are working.


taken from the internet: https://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/676/146/501/501146676_134.jpg.

Sorry I don't have the light with me right now


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

My thing is knowing what he did and having torture tested cells just to see how Panasonic cells handled being pushed too hard, they can and the worst one(s) probably will start leaking gel being over discharged then charged. The gel being toxic and highly corrosive its not even worth the risk to try and save them. 



he may have managed to only hit the bottom limit of the cells and they may be ok, but the next person who reads this thread not knowing what hes doing (like andre) could turn around and do it with cheap cells and burn their house down. That's part of why I make such a big deal because its extremely high risk and for every 1 of us that know what we are doing, there is 1000 people that don't and read these threads to learn. Hate reading about people getting chemical burns from leaking cells or like the latest thread, almost burning their house to the ground. 

Which is why I may sound rude and I apologize if so, but trying to be very stern. If you don't know fully how do use li-ion cells, then ONLY USE PROTECTED CELLS AND AVOID CHEAP CHINESE BATTERY PACKS.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

To bad. This picture doesn't tell us for sure, but can you recall if the all cells had same orientation - posititive (button) side on top? If yes, then all cells are in paralell.

Tig I understand your concerns, but here is not the tipical battery pack in question as you can see from the link above. And I AGREE with you. In this situation for Andre protected cells would be better. Since bare cells has flat top the contact to the driver might be bad and I suspect this is the reason why one cell has been discharged less than the others.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks tigris99...I'm glad I'm here to post any possible stupidity I might do...and learn from it. Wish everyone did that instead of burning their houses!

Ledoman...positive up on all of them. I'm disappointed that my cells aren't 'protected'...I assumed that all panasonic's were. what "protected" really means anyhow? and how to easily identify them when shopping for it? is it visible? can we see just my looking at a photo?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Andre, please study this link: Flashlight information specialy Battery test-review 18650 individual tests

You might compare
Test of Panasonic NCR18650B 3400mAh (Green)
with
Test of Panasonic NCR18650B Protected 3400mAh (Green)

and read
The Anatomy of a Protected Battery

For anything about your light please visit Home | BudgetLightForum.com


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks a lot! should have gotten the protected one. It seems like this Skyray King works better with a longer battery. I had some issues with connectivity since the positive head side is very shallow...comparing with the protected version. Fixed the problem already. thanks!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

You should tell as more at the begining. Hope we have solved your issues and we can finish this discussion now.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

I know this is suppose to be 'battery only' thread...but just for information...I just left my Skyray King turned ON for 5h30min straight without any noticeable drop in light...left at mid power. I would assume that it was throwing around 4000 lumens all this time since its a 8 x cree model.









Thoughts? Good stuff...normal? Bad? I don't really have an ideia


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

> I would assume that it was throwing around 4000 lumens all this time since its a 8 x cree model.


If that light did 4000 lumen on the highest setting, I would be surprised. Your 4 cells combined have ~50 Whr of usable power. IF you ran the light for 5 hours on the middle setting and the batteries were discharged to ~2,5V, then you had ~10W of output at the middle setting. 10W is going to be more like 1500 lumen at best and most likely lower. Since your test ran longer than 5 hours and your batteries apparently are not discharged to ~2.5V then your mid setting must be less than 10W


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Full power should be 9000, but I found somewhere that's each led might be producing 1000 in this Skyray...so that would be 8000 real Throw at full power. Don't believe it's dropping all the way to 1500 at mid position( there is only 3; Off, mid and high).

I need to remember...and learn how to check the cells usage after taking them off the light. I'm intrigued now!


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

That light maybe produces 4000 lumens on high.

Just because the emitters CAN produce 1000 lumens each DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE IN A GIVEN LIGHT. Its determined by the driver. And there is NO WAY IN HE** that light is pushing 3 amps per emitter on high, you would be able to cook your breakfast on it easily.

What's vanc said especially looking at your picture is about right. 1200-1500 lumens mid level at best.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

andrepsz said:


> Full power should be 9000, but I found somewhere that's each led might be producing 1000 in this Skyray...so that would be 8000 real Throw at full power.


Not trying to piss in your Cheerios, but not a chance. Like I said earlier 4000 lumen would be surprising. If it was driven hard enough to crank out 8000 lumen it would be drawing >24A and would burn through the batteries in about a half hour.

Start a new thread about your light and some of the more experienced members here can guide you to better estimate the output at each setting.

Apologies to the OP for dragging his thread further off-topic.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I SINCERLY HOPE YOU WOULD MOVE DISCUSSION TO SOME OTHER PLACE.

I'm eaching to answer about it, but *BudgetLightForum.com* is THE right place to discuss it, so PLEASE move there. There is also much more users who deals with flashlights.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

How this is not on topic? Understanding how 4x panasonic 3400 can light up for 5h30min at X amount of Lumens ? its a case to be analyzed to say the least. Now yes...If I want to start talking about this specific Skyray King Light..yes that's off topic and I'll look for other threads. I don't have to apologize to the OP, I do have to say again thank you for explaining to me the basics and providing resources for me to read when I have some time. 

Cheers...getting lost now.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Well tho is just supposed to be batteries only, lumen output is way off topic.


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## huckleberry hound (Feb 27, 2015)

andrepsz said:


> How this is not on topic? Understanding how 4x panasonic 3400 can light up for 5h30min at X amount of Lumens ? its a case to be analyzed to say the least. Now yes...If I want to start talking about this specific Skyray King Light..yes that's off topic and I'll look for other threads. I don't have to apologize to the OP, I do have to say again thank you for explaining to me the basics and providing resources for me to read when I have some time.
> 
> Cheers...getting lost now.


Before you get too excited you need to look at the exchange rate for Chinese lumens to actual lumens. I think they are about the same as the Mexican peso to the US dollar.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Updated first post with new breif review:

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...0mah-flat-battery-pack-kaidomain-1000490.html


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

Do you have a specific charger thread? I can't seem to find it, so I'll post this here, and see what happens 

Other than the low quality build, ( which can be worked on if needed), those chinese chargers are unsafe because they give varying voltage outputs.

But what if we use this?








Its very easy to make, quite cheap, and you can adjust the output voltage to desired 8,4V, and then either use a fixed value resistor, or just leave the variable, but don't touch it.

Since the input/output voltage difference is less than 10V, the LM is good for up to 4,5A, which is a overkill. Just need a heat sink and it's good to go...


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

We do have chargers thread http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...li-ion-charger-2sxp-battery-packs-944978.html and hopefuly we will have new one this year. Maybe we should move discussion there. Would you make a copy of your post and I'll answer there.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> I SINCERLY HOPE YOU WOULD MOVE DISCUSSION TO SOME OTHER PLACE.
> 
> I'm eaching to answer about it, but *BudgetLightForum.com* is THE right place to discuss it, so PLEASE move there. There is also much more users who deals with flashlights.


I agree. At this point the discussion is more about the lamp ( torch ) and what output it has. Move it to the "Cheap-O Chinese lamp" thread. FWIW, the seller/manufacturer of the torch claims it can output 9600 lumen ( that's almost too funny ). My bet you might get an actual 1500-2000 on high if lucky. Low is likely about 300-400 lumen, which helps explain the long run time.


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

So, as mentioned, I got my chinese crap pack. Before I order the ledoman pack, what can and should I do with this one? I would like to add a balancing plug. I suppose I have to open up the pack, and solder the wires to b+/- and add a wire from ++/-- connection to BM point on the PCB. What if there isn't any? Should I do a discharge/charge cycle? I know the pack is bad, but I would like to make the best of it for now.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

First tear down the pack and measure the voltages of each cells pair. Make some pictures of the bare pack with wireing and post it here. If you can, make good macro picture of PCM to show electronic elements (it is not called PCB). 
Then we will tell you for further steps.


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

ledoman said:


> If you can, make good macro picture of PCM to show electronic elements (it is not called PCB).


PCB generally stands for 'printed circuit board', and is pretty valid name here.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Ok, but I've mostly seen it as PCM (Protection Circuit Module) which is probably aimed to tell you what it is used for. PCB is also used for boards where leds are mounted, though, so very generic.


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

thnx archie for stepping up  olready copied the wiki link for PCB. PCM is pulse code modulation 

But the main thing is we understand each other. ... I'm going to dissasemble it ASAP


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

Ok.. here it is. I have a problem, and that problem is easily solved, but requires soldering. Not sure how much heat can the battery take and not get damaged. I believe it wont heat up much, but.. opinions? I have to cut the BM contact in order to turn the protection circuit around.

The cells are pink. are they samsung.. LG or some chinese knockoff?

The voltages are pretty consistent, one 2P is 4.10V, the other 4.14V


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

f... it..

I broke it of, solder it later...

can't make a better macro. my camera is crappy, and phone hasn't got a macro...








now I have to make some kind of a glove...from a surgical glove 

blah, no macro option on my phone, but a magnifier app on the phone so good it would make awesome macros

the smallest IC says 2120 CB, and two other are marked 8205A 1545


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Looks like corrosion on one pair of cells???


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

Dunno. I packed them away. I think it was some kind of soldering paste..

edit:

Yup, 'twas corrosion. Cleaned up most of it, and repacked the batteries.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Get rid of those batteries, they are already leaking.


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

hmmmmm I wouldn't be so sure. The only corroded part was the top of the battery ( it looks like a metal dome on 4 "legs" atop of the battery. The flat part on which it resides is nice and shiney. I would sooner say that the corrosion occurred due to the glue with which the top foil was glued


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

https://g02.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1ewHHHpXXXXXCXXXXq6xXFXXX8/lg-18650-flat-top-battery-3-7V.jpg

this is what I'm talking about.. the 4 point "dome". Underneath it, the metal is absolutely clean without signs of corrosion


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

The cells are Chinese estimating based on previously seen at about 1100-1200mAh each so up to 2400mAh for the pack at best.

Voltage would be consistent if the difference was 0.01V or less.

Since there are no markings on the cells I can only guess but those cells behaves quite well at very low current. At the higger currents around 1A and above they have prety low capacity. Take a look at http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...terproof-bicycle-battery-packs-gb-982688.html

I would use this pack for very short rides and with weak lights only. They are also good for limited testing purposes.


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

ok, so I have to charge them at about 0,75-1A max. even at the lowest setting the light is pretty bright for my kind of riding...

the seller refunded me half the price, so at 9,5$ the light and the pack is awesome


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

ChILd_ReBoRn said:


> hmmmmm I wouldn't be so sure. The only corroded part was the top of the battery ( it looks like a metal dome on 4 "legs" atop of the battery. The flat part on which it resides is nice and shiney. I would sooner say that the corrosion occurred due to the glue with which the top foil was glued


You'll find out soon enough that the battery pack needs to be disposed of and its already leaking. That corrosion is either due leaking cells, not the adhesive used to assemble them.

Just a heads up cause the crap they leak is toxic.


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

k.. wont lick them


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

From time to time, ultra-cheap Chinese batteries and chargers could be really dangerous:
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...ight-nearly-burns-down-guys-house-997922.html


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

listen guys, let's not get overly excited. I'm not some economics graduate who hasn't got a clue about anything other than numbers. No offense to economists. I'm an electrician, and I'm well aware of LiION dangers. I was charging my battery by my side, in a metal pot, covered with a metal lid. I was by her side all the time, constantly checking the battery/charger temperature. I will change the pack first chance I got, but I'm no Gates, and I don't have any excess money. Momenterally.. 30$ is as much as 3000$. After my paycheck, IF there's anything left after my mortgage, and gas/electricity/garbage disposal/phone/ineternet/mobile phone/water/all kind of crap bills, I'll get the better pack.. OK? then.. the spring will come, longer days, and I won't need the light until next winter...


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

Ok.


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

Good, I did my first controlled discharge using the turnigy charger. The Voltage shown on the LCD was 6.xxV. Forgot was it .37 or .73V. Besides the point, anyway. Why can't I measure any voltage with my voltmeter? Could it be that the PCM cuts off any voltage drain as to prevent battery damage? I tried to plug the pack in the lamp, and all three leds are turned off. If the lack of voltage isn't PCM's doing, what has happened?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

What LCD is showing that voltage because if it cut off and your reading that high, the pack is way outta balance?


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

the charger LCD. I was doing a discontinued discharge, since I was fiddling with the settings. But the longest one ( from somwhere around 7,8V to the end) was the one that was the final one. So the discharge went on 0,6A ( although I set up a 1A, but the charger went to 0,6A and stopped), and when I woke up 6 hrs later, the LCD was shoving as follows:
blinking END 2S, voltage (aforementioned 6,37 or ,73 I forgott ), discharged capacity ( around 1580 mAh, plus around 900mAh discharged at the first attempt), and discharge time. 

I could buy the balance plug, solder it on the battery connectors and plug it into the charger, and see what happens. Does the plug have some kind of a code name? I knoe I need a male 3 pin connector, but don't know the size...


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I never use a balance plug, but just get one for a 2s lipo battery set up. I use the clips that I have for my charger with the pack open, charge the low side till its voltage (resting, tested on a DMM, not charger) matches that of the side that was higher. THen finish charging pack normally, check each bank again to make sure their in balance and done.

You should set your charger to discharge to 3.0per cell (6V in this case), discharge then fully recharge. Will give you a better idea of the actual capacity.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

He has his sharger set to 3.0V. Charger has only 5W of discharge power so 0.6A is the best it can do.

I agree, one more full charge/discharge cycle would be good. But anyway I can predict you'll get around 2400mAh out of crapy chinese battery pack with unlabeled pinky cells.

ChILd_ReBoR, after 1st charge phase, you can run few short charges with 0.5A to top up the pack. Then you should measure voltage of the pack. If it is still below 4.35V then it is very likely unbalanced. Disassemble pack and charge each pair separately as 1S (single cell). Be careful when making contacts not to make a short.


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

Ok, If it comes to that, that I have to charge 1S by 1S individually, why is this better than using a normal balance plug? I know that the once balanced pack doesn't need to be balanced so often, so the plug could get in the way, but since I can solder it on, wouldn't it speed up the charge proces? plug it in, and let it charge/balance automatically. It takes ages to charge it up, and I don't want to spend the entire day staring and the charger so the battery doesn't fire up


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Balancing charge takes more time than ordinary. This is because it cycle charge full pack/discharge higher voltage cells. It can't be better implemented - longer story....

All in all do it how you wish. Adding balance port is good, but only needed if/when cells are unbalanced, so first prove that then we can talk further. And all about this stuff is well explained on some RC forum. I'm out now....


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

1950mAh, after a full charge (1,2A). I'm discharging her now, and will recharge her tomorrow, and see what I get. That'll be it.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Dont full discharge then not charge right away, not good to do that as cell self discharge can drop pack too low and damage cells. Just good habit to never leave cells "dead"


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

full discharge complete. result: 2175 mAh, at 6,31V.


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

I discharged it after a charge, but charged it more than 12hrs after a discharge


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

ChILd_ReBoRn said:


> full discharge complete. result: 2175 mAh, at 6,31V.


As predicted, crappy capacity out of crappy cells. Still, you didn't report what was the voltage after full topped charge so we can't say the pack is balanced or not.


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

Oh..damn. The charger said 8,40V. I will charge it up again today, measure it, discharge it on my bike, and see if I need to balance it


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Don't look for the charger, use DMM instead. Charger is charging up to 8.40V anyway unless protection circuit on the battery pack kicks in. 
As I can recall from other packs I've seen before those pinky cells are quite good regarding being balanced. They are pretty even quality but just very low on capacity.


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

Ok, the charging is complete. Total capacity: 2088 mAh

Cell 1: 4,22V
Cell 2: 4,10V

So the cell needs to be balanced.

Now, what to do, should I just connect the cell 2 and add up the charge, or should I discharge it using my lamp, and just charge one, then another cell pack? The plug I bought for balanced charging isn't good. Too thick.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes, just connect cell2 pair and charge it up. Since your hobby charger won't charge to the 4.22V you might also discharge a bit cell1 pair. You may need to do it few times to get it equal.


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

4,17/4,19

I think this is the best i can get. Added 185 mAh more to the cell


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

As you wish, but you can do it exactly equal if you like by repeating or (temporary at least) attach balancing connector and use balancing feature of your charger.

Depending on cells quality you may get it unabalanced after one or just few discharge/charge cycles again. In that case I would advise you to solder balancing port permanently.

Very likely you won't use this pack anymore (or very seldom) if you going to buy Panasonic based pack I've reviewed.


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

I cant find an adequate balance connector at my local electronic shop, and I don't want to wait 30 days for ebay shipping. I plan to use this pack as an emergency spare, since I plan to order the panny 2S1P set you recomended. For a helmet mount, it will take off some weight, and based on my google-ing, I should get about 2+ hrs on a 3500 mAh set (medium setting). SInce I don't do epic night rides, panny 2 cell and the spare chinese crappy pack.. should be just fine for a 3 hr ride

update:

ordered the ballance cable... I can't help myself

update:

will test my crappy pack, in real time. before ordering anything


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

what is better/safer?

this:

LiPo Battery Safe Guard Charging Protection Explosion Proof Bag 125 65 50mm I | eBay

or this:

US Fireproof RC LiPo Battery Safe Bag LiPo Guard Charge Protection Bag 18x23 OE | eBay

or maybe this:

LiPo Battery Safe Guard Charging Protection Bag Explosion Proof 185x75x60mm | eBay

same thing different shape..


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## Topsi (Jan 29, 2016)

Hello!

Im looking for bicycle light. I may be buying one of these without battery: http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...ght-partial-tear-down-impressions-971067.html

And im asking you, is there better battery for that light? Im noob with lights and this is my first one. ~50€ would be good if possible. It can be pretty big, but it has to run that light long. Thanks and sorry for my english.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

None of the links works in that thread you have pointed out (at least not for me). It is hard to see connector and there is no data what is the running voltage. So who knows.

But if the connector is 5.5x2.1mm and voltage 8.4V then packs I've reviewed and/or linked should work. It is just onyou to choose capacity. I would suggest 6 or 8 cells packs. You can find links to the suppliers in the 1st page of this thread.


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## Topsi (Jan 29, 2016)

Im not really good with batteries or electricity so, how i should choose the capacity? I want my light to be bright for long time. What are pros and cons for high capacity? What about low? What is the difference between 6 and 8 cells?


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## Topsi (Jan 29, 2016)

This is the stock battery i guess: http://www.kaidomain.com/product/Details.S021637
Bigger is always better so more cells=better battery, or?

Im thinking this: http://www.kaidomain.com/product/details.S021636
Should work like stock but battery would last longer, right?

Or should i change to li-ion? http://www.kaidomain.com/product/Details.S024616
What charger would work with that? Do i have modify something if i change to li-ion?

Why would anyone choose 4 cells over 8 cells? Less cells is lighter but what else?


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## Topsi (Jan 29, 2016)

I tried to post three times but my posts didnt show up so sorry if i tripleposted.

This is the stock battery i guess: http://www.kaidomain.com/product/Details.S021637
Bigger is always better so more cells=better battery, or?

Im thinking this: http://www.kaidomain.com/product/details.S021636
Should work like stock but battery would last longer, right?

Or should i change to li-ion? http://www.kaidomain.com/product/Details.S024616
What charger would work with that? Do i have modify something if i change to li-ion?

Why would anyone choose 4 cells over 8 cells? Less cells is lighter but what else?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Difference is REAL capacity. Bigger is not always better. Cheapo packs doesn't have real capacity listed, very likely real is 2-3 times less.
Go with packs I've reviewed and you won't fail. All Panasonic NCR18650x packs at Kaidomain are good. Use links from the post #2 or look the front page of http://www.kaidomain.com/ all packs listed as KBP - http://www.kaidomain.com/Search/SearchResult.NCR/348

BTW, all you have listed are Li-Ion.


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## baker (Jan 6, 2004)

Topsi said:


> Why would anyone choose 4 cells over 8 cells? Less cells is lighter but what else?


Less weight and bulk... 8 cell packs are BIG.

Heck, I even bought a bunch of the two cell packs. They meet my required battery life for certain situations and are much smaller and lighter (I can even mount one directly to my helmet).


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

That's why those giant and cheap junk/dangerous packs sell. Most people dont bother asking. They think the same thing then get mad when they realize they got screwed.

NEVER EVER BUY CHEAP BATTERY PACKS THAT DONT USE BRAND NAME CELLS IN THEM.

Sanyo, BAK, Samsung, LG, Panasonic.

If the pack doesn't say one of those brand names in the name of the pack, its cheap crap. Lying on the capacity and possibly dangerous to use (cause fires).


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

Hi there

I have a question. I was trying to balance out my crap pack today. I soldered the balancing plug (red on end +, black on end -, and the yellow one on the ++/-- connection). The plug is wired red/black/yellow. I asked the service at hobby king for the pin layout on my turnigy charger, and they say it doesn't matter. Most plugs I see online have red/yellow/black layout. When I plug in the balance plug, the charger starts to scream high voltage warning. It's set up correctly, balance at 0,8V, 7,4V (2S)

What's the problem?

I plugged the pack to my lamp, and after 90 minutes of medium intensity work, I measured the cells. They were around 3,8V. Still the charger screams to high voltage. why?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Did you solder on the input or output of the protection circuit?

Also sounds like you balance plug is pinned wrong. Should be red yellow black.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

You wired like so?:









Close-up of PCM:









-Garry


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

yes, exactly like that, but I soldered it directly to the cells (well, the little tin foil connecting the cells). 

I thought it might be wired wrong...


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

ok, I changed the black and yellow wire, and no error. It's balance charging. Stupid hobby king operaters...


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

ChILd_ReBoRn said:


> Hi there
> 
> I asked the service at hobby king for the pin layout on my turnigy charger, and they say it doesn't matter.


How could it not matter?

-Garry


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I should have looked at your pics more closely before, ya you had that wired wrong lol. Freaking idiots at big name hobby stores. Dumb teenagers usually that don't know anything beyond plug and play.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

right.. and he was so confident about it.. I was like... riiiight.. if you say so.....


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ChILd_ReBoRn said:


> right.. and he was so confident about it.. I was like... riiiight.. if you say so.....


At least you had enough common sense to know something was wrong. Someone else might not of been so lucky. Looks like you came to the right place to get your questions answered. Kudos to the knowledgeable people posting on the new battery thread. :thumbsup:


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

thumbs up!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

If he would stick with his own thread http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-diy-do-yourself/simple-wiring-schematics-1000307.html he would know how to connect the whole thing


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## ChILd_ReBoRn (Jul 30, 2015)

I connected it right. As I mentioned, but my balance plugs came with different color order than my gut told me should be right. I blame the whole thing on the hobby king customer service


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yeah, we have already talked about it here http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...e-battery-packs-gb-982688-2.html#post12098316


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## BerndSon (May 8, 2016)

HI Guys

2 weeks ago i wrote to Kaidomain why they don't sell good quality chargers that serve their nice panasonic batterys instead of those crappy standard ones.
A friendly guy answered very fast and told me that they soon will get some test samples of a new charger.
Some days ago he told me they are tested good and so i ordered one.
In order i havent read anything about it in this Forum, i thought it might be worth posting it. 
They are offered wit US and EU plugs as well:

--> http://kaidomain.com/Product/Details.S025061

I've read that the charging current should be somewhere between 0.5C to 0.7C for those Panasonic/Sanyo Cells, so the 3A output is quite high. Does anyone know if it is still ok for the 2S1P battery?

thanks in advance, 
BerndSon


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

A 4 cell 2s1p panasonic pack can be charged at 3A but that's about Max that it can be charged at.

As you already said 0.5C charge rate, pack is well over 6000mah (6800mah rated). Which is 6.8 Ah. So .5C would be 3.4A.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## BerndSon (May 8, 2016)

Hi tigris99,

thanks for the quick reply!



tigris99 said:


> A 4 cell 2s1p panasonic pack can be charged at 3A but that's about Max that it can be charged at.
> 
> As you already said 0.5C charge rate, pack is well over 6000mah (6800mah rated). Which is 6.8 Ah. So .5C would be 3.4A.


Well, thats the point, the 2SP1 ist the one with only two cells and a capacity of 3500mah. (http://www.kaidomain.com/product/details.S024751)
So 3A would be C=~0.9, which is quite high.

I read in another Thread, that even a C=1 is ok for some good quality cells and will mostly just affect the amount of possible charging cycles.

The reason why i initially posted the question was that i would like to know if this configuration (C= 0.9) seriously harms the cells (danger of overheating/explosion) or just drops the possible charging cycles by some percent.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

We have already talked about it. NCR18650GA cells are rated for 10A discharge. This means they have lower internal resistance and thus can stand also higher current charge. I don't see problem charging this pack with 3A.

But in general (valid for all Lithium based cells) you are right, charging with higher currents degrades cells life to some degree. Still if you take into account cells can stand 500 cycles and let take for example we degrade them to 365 cycles (for easy calculation) this would be still 1 cycle per day in one year. I'm shure no one is using them every day. Moderate usage would still give you 5 year lifetime with charging once every 5 days. In 5 years I'm shure you would buy another pack anyway. The other thing is degradation of capacity which also happens even if you don't use the cells (in very small amount).

You may want to read:
How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ledoman is 100% right. I wont charge a 2 cell pack at 0.9C, I wont charge any pack that high. Highest I charge those cells in 2s1p config (I have a fenix case I use those cells in) is 2A. But thats partially because of charger cutoff is usually 10% of rated output current. So when charger reduces output down to 200mA then it thinks the pack is full (whether it actually is or not). I can usually squeeze in another 100-200mah into a pack by first charging it at .5-.75C for the speed of charging. Then if I want to make sure its full, put it on to charge at 1A. Little extra capacity (battery truly full).

If it was me, I would not charge anything under 6000mah for capacity as high as 3A, but thats me. Yes quality cells you can push them harder but if you dont have a nice charger doing it (so its well monitored and regulated) you risk serious problems.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes depends on charger. If the charger is reliable and knowing Panasonic quality I think the one might go safe enough with 3A charger (if it really deliver that current). Of course it is better for the cells if you run them bit lower. Me personaly I would dare to do it, but don't have such need as I have hobby charger where I can set the current I want.

BTW it might happen HKJ (Flashlight information) and me would get that charger from KD to test.

*Need to ask if you people are generaly interested in using such charger? It would significaly reduce charge time of tipical 4-8 cell packs* (I mean the quality ones, not safe for cheapo chinese packs).


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

So no answer from anyone. Well, anyway, charger is on it's way to be tested.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Yes depends on charger. If the charger is reliable and knowing Panasonic quality I think the one might go safe enough with 3A charger (if it really deliver that current). Of course it is better for the cells if you run them bit lower. Me personaly I would dare to do it, but don't have such need as I have hobby charger where I can set the current I want.
> 
> BTW it might happen HKJ (Flashlight information) and me would get that charger from KD to test.
> 
> *Need to ask if you people are generaly interested in using such charger? It would significaly reduce charge time of tipical 4-8 cell packs* (I mean the quality ones, not safe for cheapo chinese packs).


Sorry, I wasn't paying attention before.  That 3A KD charger ( with U.S. plug ) looks interesting. Like you mentioned, very good for 6-8 cell batteries. Next time I order from KD I might get me one.

On a side note having one of these might enable a DIY user to modify an old single or double LED lamp for "wired" in home use. I heard of people doing that although I personally just buy the typical screw-in LED Bulbs for my home lamps.


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## IronMac (Jan 4, 2016)

ledoman said:


> So no answer from anyone. Well, anyway, charger is on it's way to be tested.


Actually, I would be very interested. Sorry, but have not been keeping up with the forum. If you have the review up already and can link to it that would be great. Thanks!!!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Charger is in the waiting queue to be tested at Flashlight information I don't have any info when it get its time slot. He has a lot of things to test all the time.

Edit:
Sorry, haven't been informed about test which have been already done:
Review of Charger UT-6026C 2S 3A LiIon


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Hmm, seems that charger was an "almost, but not quite". Is the manufacturer interested in fixing the issues?

-Garry


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## IronMac (Jan 4, 2016)

Thanks ledoman! So, as with garry, "almost, but not quite"? Or is it more like no dealbreaker, might as well get it because nothing is better sort of deal? I am most likely going to pick up some of those Kaidomain batteries so might as well get the charger.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

KD is informed about voltage being to high and the had some contact with manufacturer, but the result is still unknown to me. I doubt they would implement cut-off easily as there should be some additional logic added.

Anyone buying this charger should check voltage unloaded. Mine sample has 8.51V so bit better. Still to high, but just on the edge of battery limits 4.25V per cell. This would just shorten cells lifetime a bit. 

Of course if you watch and remove battery pack when green turns on voltage of the pack might came out just perfectly.


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## IronMac (Jan 4, 2016)

Thanks ledoman, guess I can wait just a bit longer then...not crazy about that but what the hey.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*Suggestion Needed; RCR123a / 16340's batteries*

I have a couple mini-torches that use the RCR123a size batteries ( 16340 ). I've got two 650mAh Olight batteries and they seem to do okay but I'm wondering if there is a cell out there with more capacity. I have a new torch on order that should be here in about 7 days. I was thinking about buying a couple of the efest IMR 850's but when it comes to 16340 cells almost all are vastly over-rated. _Anyone have the low-down on which one at the moment is rated the best?_ I don't see any rechargeable made by Panasonic.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Google search under budgetlightforum. Those guys stop at nothing to get every little detail out of about every use able battery made.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Cat, see this list: Battery test-review small individual tests and comparator Battery test-review 18650 comparator

Probably the most comprehensive list out there. At that size of battery there can't be much energy stored and the differencies even for better brands are not so big.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Yep 18650 seems like the sweet spot but I do like the smaller pocketable cr123/14500/18350 torches. I use the Olight rcr123 as well but it's on the charger a lot.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Cat, see this list: Battery test-review small individual tests and comparator Battery test-review 18650 comparator
> 
> Probably the most comprehensive list out there. At that size of battery there can't be much energy stored and the differencies even for better brands are not so big.


Thanks ledo. Took a while for me to go through the list to find something better than the Olight's. Really though, when it comes to 16340's there is not a lot of differences so you really have to look at several different parameters.

Basically I was judging by the discharge times between 0.5 and 1A. With cells this small you really don't want to use too much current or else the batteries will poop real quick. Almost all of the 16340's are Chinese made. The best of the lot I saw in the 16340 category were the Windfire ( IMR ) and the *Trustfire TF16340 "black with fire "*, ( note; 18350's were in the review mix as well but those won't fit my 16340 torch unfortunately ) _Anyway the Trustfires look to get about 8 more minutes of runtime in my target current range. I figure that's worth paying a couple extra dollars for._

Damn.......just got thinking...the new torch on order is slightly larger than my Olight S1 torch. I'm now wondering if it might actually be able to use an 18350. :skep:...Well, if it can, good for me...I'll order some of those too. When it comes I'll look at it to see if it has some extra room. The Olight S1 is tight as a drum, no extra room on the sides.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes 18350 can give you noticeably more juice than 16340. 2mm more diameter would make difference. 
Actualy I own TF16340 and they are pretty good. I use them very seldom, but it always sits in my backpack as 2nd backup Romisen RC6-II NW zoomie even on daytime trips. 
Just warning: those batteries might be very old stock. I doubt they are still in production.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Yes 18350 can give you noticeably more juice than 16340. 2mm more diameter would make difference.
> Actualy I own TF16340 and they are pretty good. I use them very seldom, but it always sits in my backpack as 2nd backup Romisen RC6-II NW zoomie even on daytime trips.
> Just warning: those batteries might be very old stock. I doubt they are still in production.


Oh they're still out there. I placed an order for a couple just before my last post. Actually I already have a couple of them kicking around somewhere but they have to at be 5-6 yrs old.

The new 16340 torch is an Olight S1 clone that I'm buying from Gearbest. Its slightly bigger than the S1. I ordered it with the highest rated driver but it has several useable modes. One of those modes is about 150 lumen and that should work well for back-up purposes. Supposedly it has an 800 mode but ( lol ) if I use that the battery will be done in 10 minutes. I also ordered another 18650 Convoy torch. This one with a warmer emitter than my previous one. Yeps...I's a torch junkie too.


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## steviemidnight (Apr 2, 2009)

I'm in need of a new charger?
Any recommendations am i missing anything?
Presently i'm thinking of the below. 
Key requirement is I want something to tell me Battery Voltage and Capacity quickly and save using the volt meter.

NiteCore: Digicharger D4
Opus: BT-C3100
XTAR: VP4 
or wait for XTAR DRAGON VP4 Plus (although can't find much info on this)

Or even a cheap hobby charger
Accucell 6


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

If you are talking about charging single cells I can tell only for BT-C3100 from your list. I'm pretty satisfied with it and I'm using it very often. Not the best accuracy on discharge capacity (readings are bit to high) and you need to take care about fans bearings (keep noise down). Otherwise it is very good. I've got version 2.2. There is also 2.3 out there. Have few other chargers, but use BT most of the time.

Hobby chargers are even better (not all of them!) and more versalite, but you need to have separate charging bay and/or some DIY cabling setup in order to charge/discharge single cells.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Either Gearbest or BANGGOOD has a really good sale on chargers. $21 for an Xtar vc4. Xtar is prolly one of the best chargers. I have an Opus like ledoman and that fan is freakin
Annoying. I just recieved a multimeter so I will be cheching accuracy of my chargers. I have a few single cell chargers which is very convenient when traveling.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes that Opus fan is loud but you can lubricate the shaft and it become acceptable. There is thread at BLF how to do it. I've used oil for sewing machines and it is Ok now.


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## steviemidnight (Apr 2, 2009)

Well I have purchased a Xtar vc4.

However i since been looking at hobby chargers and found that you can flash firmware on a Imax B6 which are cheap and parallel charge. I really don't need it but i like the idea.
https://github.com/stawel/cheali-charger


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

I got a note from Hunk Lee that they are now shipping orders in Canada from their Mississauga warehouse, so 7 days on batteries instead of slow boat from China.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> Thanks ledo. Took a while for me to go through the list to find something better than the Olight's. Really though, when it comes to 16340's there is not a lot of differences so you really have to look at several different parameters.
> 
> Basically I was judging by the discharge times between 0.5 and 1A. With cells this small you really don't want to use too much current or else the batteries will poop real quick. Almost all of the 16340's are Chinese made. The best of the lot I saw in the 16340 category were the Windfire ( IMR ) and the *Trustfire TF16340 "black with fire "*, ( note; 18350's were in the review mix as well but those won't fit my 16340 torch unfortunately ) _Anyway the Trustfires look to get about 8 more minutes of runtime in my target current range. I figure that's worth paying a couple extra dollars for._
> 
> Damn.......just got thinking...the new torch on order is slightly larger than my Olight S1 torch. I'm now wondering if it might actually be able to use an 18350. :skep:...Well, if it can, good for me...I'll order some of those too. When it comes I'll look at it to see if it has some extra room. The Olight S1 is tight as a drum, no extra room on the sides.


Just some feedback on what I said above ^.. Well I've had the Gearbest S1 clone a couple weeks now. When I got my order in for the Trustfire "Black with fire" 16340's I couldn't wait to try them out in the S1 clone. To my utter surprise, the TF's won't work inside the S1 clone. :incazzato:
They fit inside the torch, no problem. They just don't work and I have no idea why. I can put them inside my Olight S1 and while they are a tight fit, they work fine. The slightly smaller Olight batteries work fine in the S1 clone, go figure. Sometimes stuff like this makes you want to > :madman: .


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

Cat-man-do said:


> To my utter surprise, the TF's won't work inside the S1 clone. :incazzato:
> They fit inside the torch, no problem. They just don't work and I have no idea why.


What current is consumed by your light? There was old story with TrustFire cells, when (after initial good batch) manufacturer decided to cut the cost, and started to put protection PCB with part of components missed. Result was, the battery charged & seemed fine, but attempt to use it with high-current load (e.g., powerful flashlight) triggered the protection...


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

-Archie- said:


> What current is consumed by your light? There was old story with TrustFire cells, when (after initial good batch) manufacturer decided to cut the cost, and started to put protection PCB with part of components missed. Result was, the battery charged & seemed fine, but attempt to use it with high-current load (e.g., powerful flashlight) triggered the protection...


I would of thought the same thing but when I put the TF's into the real S1 and use the highest mode ( 500 lumen ) it works fine. It might have something to do with the driver inside the clone and how it senses voltage. Perhaps it is sensing a higher voltage with the TF's and shutting down...(?)...just don't know at this point. I'll partially drain one of the TF's to test that theory again because I remember putting a TF into the clone and having seem to work when on the lowest mode. When I changed modes to the upper levels it turned off. Possible both issues are in play. The clone I know draws more power that the original because it is using brighter modes. At least I can be glad the clone works with the Olight cells but the TF's have a slighter larger capacity.

( edit : hmmm....could be the circuit in the clone is not controlling current surge and tripping the protection in the TF's. Possible the protection in the TF's themselves are using shoddy parts and are too sensitive to surge. ) I might try removing protection from a TF cell to test the theory. )


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I've seen this before, it's the protection tripping. That's why I never buy a battery with fire in the name. Always suck.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Cat, try the battery in the flashlight without rear cap and make contact with some metal.
Actualy I don't know how your S1 clone looks. I'm speculating the springs in the torch might bent and make short or close driver cicuit.
And have you have ever seen your S1 clone worrking? Just asking to evaluate all possibilities.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Cat, try the battery in the flashlight without rear cap and make contact with some metal.
> Actualy I don't know how your S1 clone looks. I'm speculating the springs in the torch might bent and make short or close driver cicuit.
> And have you have ever seen your S1 clone working? Just asking to evaluate all possibilities.


No, I tried all that. The Clone works just not with the SF batteries. The SF batteries work, just not in the clone..very strange. My guess is that the Clone driver is producing a surge current ( spike ) that the protection on the SF cells can't handle.

I've a link for some "unprotected" Surefire cells. I might buy a couple of those and see what happens.

Yeah, I tried taking the back off and making contact with just metal. Works for the Olight battery, not the TF's. Since the TF's DO work in the Olight S1 and the Olight batteries work in the S1 clone....it is quite baffling.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Try both lights with multimeter inline when back is off. You might spot the current spike if it is there. If your DMM has MAX function it might capture it. 

Another thing, I would try to simulate connection with thinner wires if you have space to do it and/or have access to the driver spring. Very thin/long wires should reduce current and thus starting spike. Or put some resistor inline.

Also, do you need to reset battery circuit with the charger each time you put it into clone S1? With many protection circuits this is the case.


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## steviemidnight (Apr 2, 2009)

I'm trying to source some compatible leads for my battery pack Solarstorm BC-04
I can find Y splitters 
But no extension cables with the screw connectors.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

steviemidnight said:


> I'm trying to source some compatible leads for my battery pack Solarstorm BC-04
> I can find Y splitters
> But no extension cables with the screw connectors.


While I have no problem using the solarstorm connectors with a standard MS type connector it is obviously not the perfect solution. In your case I would recommend either converting the SStorm lamps to MS connectors..OR...find an old Sstorm connector, DIY connect it with a MS type connector and make your own adapter. After you have the adapter you can use whatever MS type battery or MS "Y" cable/extension cable you want. ( Real shame someone doesn't market an adapter for the Sstorm plugs )


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## kikoy (Aug 30, 2007)

Where can i get good chargers for 8.4v battery packs? Some chargers output are 10v. Rating on sticker is 8.4v but puts out 9-10v. This will surely shorten batt life.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

9-10V can be dangerous, not only shorten battery life. It depends if the battery pack has good protection. Anway, it is not goot to use such charger unless you have some monitoring equipment. 

I'm working with KD to provide good charger with cut-off feature, but process is pretty slow. I've tried to arrange 2.5A charger but the last solution is only (but real) 1.8A. No cut-off feature jet. I got feeling not many manufacturers can provide good quality for reasonable price (acceptable by the market). And the quantities they demand are pretty high ie. in thousands. :/

If you need charger soon and you are in the US then some other guy might give you good advise.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

You can get good 2A chargers from www.ituolights.com. not sure if there are any other companies that make 2A chargers.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## kikoy (Aug 30, 2007)

Thank you sir tigris99. Here is what kd offered for the charger.

http://www.kaidomain.com/p/S024352....DC-8_4V-2A-Power-Adapter-AC-100V-240V-US-Plug


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## kikoy (Aug 30, 2007)

Thank you for the reply sir. i purchased the battery from kd 6,800mah panasonic cells. They also offered this charger but i havent purchased it yet. I dont know if its good.

http://www.kaidomain.com/p/S024352....DC-8_4V-2A-Power-Adapter-AC-100V-240V-US-Plug


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I have that KD charger on the way to me and will report on it. Expect it to be awhile before I get it though.

-Garry


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## kikoy (Aug 30, 2007)

Thank you sir Garry. Ill look forward to your charger report. if its a good one then ill be ordering also. Thanks again.


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## OverTheHill (Dec 3, 2004)

I have the identical charger which came with my Nightfighter BT21. It works so far and hasn't burnt the house down (YET!)


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

You mean identical look or it is same under the hood? 

What is the output voltage unloaded? It can be important info. Do you possibly know if it has cut-off feature or it charges (almost) endlesly like most other chargers. Status light would not telling that. You would need to watch current at very last stage of the charging process.


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## OverTheHill (Dec 3, 2004)

ledoman said:


> You mean identical look or it is same under the hood?
> 
> What is the output voltage unloaded? It can be important info. Do you possibly know if it has cut-off feature or it charges (almost) endlesly like most other chargers. Status light would not telling that. You would need to watch current at very last stage of the charging process.


Yes, looks identical. I've got a battery pack on charge at the moment but I'll check the output voltage when finished and the voltage in the pack.

How do I check the current at the last stage of the charging process?

EDIT: Actually I just noticed they are not identical looks-wise. My charger has three grooves in the case lid whereas the KD one does not. Obviously mine is an uprated version! :lol:


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

To watch the current you need to put measurment equipment inline between charger and battery pack. I'm using simple LED Digital Voltmeter Voltage Indicator Ammeter 0 - 30V 10A SH | eBay and two CCTV connectors. Or you can use DMM with some way to make good inline connection (thick and short cables gives you more accurate readings). It doesn't matter if you insert DMM between positive or negative poles. Both way you would measure the current flow. 
How to measure current wit DMM - simple explanation but you can google out much more.


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## OverTheHill (Dec 3, 2004)

ledoman said:


> To watch the current you need to put measurment equipment inline between charger and battery pack. I'm using simple LED Digital Voltmeter Voltage Indicator Ammeter 0 - 30V 10A SH | eBay and two CCTV connectors. Or you can use DMM with some way to make good inline connection (thick and short cables gives you more accurate readings). It doesn't matter if you insert DMM between positive or negative poles. Both way you would measure the current flow.
> How to measure current wit DMM - simple explanation but you can google out much more.


I thought that's how you did it but thanks for the info ledoman.

EDIT: I just tested the charger and it comes out at 8.38V. The pack fully charged is 8.25V. I can't check the current because my DMM only goes up to 200mA. A good excuse to order a new DMM!


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

You can connect your DMM when indicator LED is changed to green (i.e., near end of charge): actual current should be very low at that time...


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Or zero if cut-off feature is implemented. But yes it should be lower than 200mA. Normaly at hobby chargers cut-off kicks in at 1/10 of starting current.


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## OverTheHill (Dec 3, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Or zero if cut-off feature is implemented. But yes it should be lower than 200mA. Normaly at hobby chargers cut-off kicks in at 1/10 of starting current.


That might explain something then. I was getting a zero reading on the DMM and assumed it wasn't reading properly due to the 200mA limit. Does that indicate that my charger is cutting off correctly at the end of charge then?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Maybe, but you need to catch that moment to prove it. Or watch voltage which may drop somewhat when green light turns on (or somewhere near that time).


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## kikoy (Aug 30, 2007)

ledoman said:


> To watch the current you need to put 9measurment equipment inline between charger and battery pack. I'm using simple LED Digital Voltmeter Voltage Indicator Ammeter 0 - 30V 10A SH | eBay and two CCTV connectors. Or you can use DMM with some way to make good inline connection (thick and short cables gives you more accurate readings). It doesn't matter if you insert DMM between positive or negative poles. Both way you would measure the current flow.
> How to measure current wit DMM - simple explanation but you can google out much more.


Sir ledoman if you dont mind sharing pics of the inline voltage monitor? Im trying to look for connectors to do it. thank you.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

This thread may help. The setup needs wired differently for monitoring chargers. Contraption to Measure Current Pulled from Bike Light Battery Packs - REVISED - See Post #12 | BudgetLightForum.com

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

kikoy, I hope Garry's pictures are good enough. If not I can try to make some.


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## OverTheHill (Dec 3, 2004)

garrybunk said:


> This thread may help. The setup needs wired differently for monitoring chargers. Contraption to Measure Current Pulled from Bike Light Battery Packs - REVISED - See Post #12 | BudgetLightForum.com
> 
> -Garry


Thanks for that link Garry, I've just ordered the parts from eBay to replicate your setup. Very useful!! :thumbsup:


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

garrybunk said:


> I have that KD charger on the way to me and will report on it. Expect it to be awhile before I get it though.
> 
> -Garry


Holy cow! Just checked on status of my order (placed 10/20/2016, stated as shipped by KD on 10/23/2016) and it's out for deilvery today! That was fast for KD! Now KD did give me a fake tracking # which never gave a status. I was logging into my account to see if there was a new tracking number and track it (and yes, there was a new tracking number). Not sure why they do this with the fake tracking number. Perhaps it's a placeholder, but still not a good business practice.

-Garry


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## OverTheHill (Dec 3, 2004)

garrybunk said:


> Holy cow! Just checked on status of my order (placed 10/20/2016, stated as shipped by KD on 10/23/2016) and it's out for deilvery today! That was fast for KD! Now KD did give me a fake tracking # which never gave a status. I was logging into my account to see if there was a new tracking number and track it (and yes, there was a new tracking number). Not sure why they do this with the fake tracking number. Perhaps it's a placeholder, but still not a good business practice.
> 
> -Garry


I've got three orders pending delivery from KD and none of the tracking numbers seem to be valid which is very frustrating. First order was for a battery pack on 12th October. Order confirmation email, no despatch email but Order Summary shows status as Shipped. I'm in the UK.

GearBest managed to get a YinDing light delivered last week that I ordered on the same day.

Cue Diana Ross "I'm Still Waiting"....


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## OverTheHill (Dec 3, 2004)

Sod's Law dictates that the day after I moan about KD's tardiness the battery pack I ordered gets delivered. To add insult to injury they also included an unexpected free gift of a nice pocket-size torch as well! :thumbsup:


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

garrybunk said:


> Holy cow! Just checked on status of my order (placed 10/20/2016, stated as shipped by KD on 10/23/2016) and it's out for deilvery today! That was fast for KD! Now KD did give me a fake tracking # which never gave a status. I was logging into my account to see if there was a new tracking number and track it (and yes, there was a new tracking number). Not sure why they do this with the fake tracking number. Perhaps it's a placeholder, but still not a good business practice.
> 
> -Garry


I've "spoked" with Mr. Ban about those issues which afected me too. He has explained their system automaticaly assigns HK Post tracking #. Since HK Post does not allow sending Litium batteries, they need to manualy check with another courier and assign another tracking. Even then it might happen local post office rejects sending batteries (probably when they check it). So all this make some mess about our shipments.

KD will try to improve their system in near future, so they said.

Hope this somewhat helps to reveal current situation. It is common in China to have shipping issues with Litium batteries (often in a waves) and sellers has to find out alternative routes to deliver those goods to us. Some are lucky and get their things fast, some not so. Uncertance is the only rule here :/


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

garrybunk said:


> I have that KD charger on the way to me and will report on it.
> -Garry


First test of this charger on a cheap chinese pack (one I don't care about - a 2S2P pack that tested at 2,289mAh capacity at 2A discharge). No load voltage of the charger is 8.43v (good!), but the charger doesn't appear to do CC\CV charging. With the pack completely discharged it started charging at 2.11A, but the current just continuously dropped as the pack was charging. It doesn't stay at 2A very long at all. Light went green on the charger when pack was at 8.24v (possible earlier, I didn't catch it right away - not good). At 8.39v charge current was down to 0.04A, then at 8.41v current was at 0.02A. I had to shut it off as I was going to bed and didn't want to leave it running, but I have a feeling it won't cutoff and the current will just keep decreasing. So in conclusion I'd say this charger isn't worth using since it's not using a correct CC\CV charging algorithm and is not truly charging as a "2A charger".

Note, I haven't even opened up the charger to see if there's anything unsafe about inside.

-Garry


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## OverTheHill (Dec 3, 2004)

Thanks for that test Garry and interesting results. I have just received this actual charger included with the Nightfighter BT40S package. It is identical right down to the model number on the sticker.

I don't tend to use these chargers anyway as I prefer to use my Turnigy Accucell-6 hobby charger which does do true CC/CV charging and you have full control over the charge rate etc.


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

Has anyone tested Tigris/ITUO's chargers?

Tig, Is that US shipping?



tigris99 said:


> You can get good 2A chargers from www.ituolights.com. not sure if there are any other companies that make 2A chargers.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

garrybunk said:


> .... No load voltage of the charger is 8.43v (good!), but the charger doesn't appear to do CC\CV charging.....


Garry with equipment we have (and I assume you have same as I do) I got feeling it doesn't show charging curve correctly. The same situation appears to me when I've tested few other charges while for the same ones HKJ test showed good CC/CV profile and of course no cut-off.

So I wouldn't put my word on it. The best would be to send HKJ one sample and then you can be shure. It is good that it has 8.43V output, though. So you can be shure the pack won't get overcharged.

And about turning green at 8.24V it is actualy good for the cells if you stop charging at that point. You are only missing about top 10% capacity. Those status led light are resistor driven (I think) and can have %5 variation. I doubt they use 1% resistors anyway.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

I have been using my 2cell pack a lot lately mounted on my helmet. Been switching between my BT21 and XP3 on the lid. Getting easily 1-1/2hrs runtime with more to go. I am being conservative with the high modes but this was money well spent.


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## kikoy (Aug 30, 2007)

ledoman said:


> kikoy, I hope Garry's pictures are good enough. If not I can try to make some.


Thank you ledoman for the info. And to all who helped in this discussion. Great feedback on this topic.


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## Pinkman (Oct 6, 2013)

Hey. Are there any recommended waterproof battery cases for 4 18660 cells? The cells will be recharged in a several thrunite charger.

I found the solarstrom case from gearbest.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Unfortunately I'm not aware of any better case (for reasonable price) than one you have found. It is really cheap for 2 days now.


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## Ivan87 (Oct 30, 2012)

would the Hunk_lee 2.5A smart charger be ok to use on the kaidoman battery pack or should i go with the ITUO 2A charger?

Cheers

8.4V 2.5A Smart Charger for 7.4V 7.2V Li-ion LiPo Battery one Removable Plug1

http://www.kaidomain.com/p/S024751....ble-18650-Li-ion-Battery-Pack-with-10cm-Cable


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Any of those two should be good enough, but personaly did not test them, so can't say for shure. About ITUO Tigris might tell more. Hunk Lee one is by look similar to the one me and HKJ have tested and was good, but no cut-off charging same as 95% of all similar chargers out there. The voltage was perfect with 8.43V unloaded.


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## manbeer (Oct 14, 2009)

Not trying to spam, but I have some of the gearbest NCR18650b that I won't be using that I can let go to someone in the states that doesn't want to wait forever for shipping. I believe I have 2 of the 6 cell packs and 6 of the 4 cell packs, all bought last year and never used, set to maintenence level on my charger every 6 months or so for longevity in storage. Price would be their cost plus shipping, rounded up to the next dollar or two to buy me a beer

I think kaidomain charges 33.xx for the 2s2p so figure on 40 shipped on that, and 42.xx so 50 shipped for the 6 cell via priority mail

I tried to post to classified but for some reason I can't upload images so figure I'd put it here. The downside is that since they are the first version, they have the slightly thinner wire


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

You not night riding anymore??? 

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## manbeer (Oct 14, 2009)

I'm not really doing any riding aside from riding the donut and pizza roller coaster at the moment. I keep trying to build the motivation to go but by the time I can actually get out I'm too exhausted or have too much domestic crap to do. 

I've been on maybe 6 rides in the last 18 months and still have enough battery to last 24 hours plus. When these came out I saw them and picked up a bunch, planning on doing all sorts of things but it never happened. Plus, my luck is horrible and last time I even attempted a night ride I broke the mounts on two of my nitefighters and wound up using my crappy kd2 solo which I was lucky was still in my bag after two years lol


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yust a side note to make shure the packs are equal to KD, do they have 22 or 20AWG cables? Having only 22AWG could be important to users with more powerful lights.


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)




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## manbeer (Oct 14, 2009)

ledoman said:


> Yust a side note to make shure the packs are equal to KD, do they have 22 or 20AWG cables? Having only 22AWG could be important to users with more powerful lights.


Good call, These are the first generation 22awg version which gearbest carried


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## bamba (Dec 18, 2016)

Looking for replacement batteries or pack for my bt40s , since changing the driver pcb, my old CGR18650 E cells are now showing there weakness. Running a 4 cell SS which i have no issues with, so contemplating 4 individual NCR18650Bs or to go for the 4 cell NCR pack from kaidomain.
Im thinking the pack may be better for power , but individual cells charged in a vc4 charger may be better for long term health of the cells . 
Also , preffered seller for the cells , kaidomain or gearbest ? Gearbest cheaper but can they be trusted to be genuine ?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I don't know for GB, but can vouch for KD and they have 20AWG cable while GB might have thinner 22AWG. You can't fail with 4cell pack. Much less voltage drop than with individual 4cells and SS case. Since there are Panasonic cells they should last 5+ years of moderate usage. For their health you should keep in mind long storage voltage is at 40% charge at cooler place. It is valid for any Li-Ion solution.


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## Yok (Jun 17, 2015)

Is there an online shop where I can get a maintenance mode charge for my KD 7.4v battery pack?


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

What do you mean by "maintenance mode"? Do you mean "trickle charge"? Trickle charging is not appropriate for Li-Ion cells. Most "good" chargers will kick back on when voltages drop below a set level from full-charge, but generally we do not recommend leaving Li-Ion batteries on a charger for extended periods of time. With a hobby charger you would have additional options like discharging, discharging/charging to storage voltage and "refreshing" (i.e. discharging & charging a number of cycles to try to regain capacity back). 

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

*Dead New Batteries*

I was reading a post from someone who bought two Niterider 1400 lights from an amazon seller and the batteries were totally dead when he received them. None of the many lights I've purchased have ever come with batteries in this condition which I understand is bad for them. How damaging is this for the batteries and what should he do to check to see if maybe he should complain? It's a current thread so you can answer here and I will relay any useful information or just post an answer in his Niterider 1400 thread. Niterider batteries are expensive and hate to see him get ripped off if this is a big problem. Thanks!
Mole


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

If these are brand new lights, use Amazon returns for non-functioning product, or contact the seller and see if they will ship a new set of batteries.

If these are used lights, there might be a valid return case if the listing stated the unit is in working condition without mentioning the batteries are dead or not tested, and the price is reasonable for a head unit with working batteries.

The ripoff lies in the cost of Niterider's batteries.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

He got those two lights on a deal, for all we know they could have been used for one ride/race and then sold discharged or with the cables plugged in. Unless they have a crappy protection circuit discharging the battery it will take a long time to drain them. I just found an old L&M Seca 6L battery ( 3S2P) that I misplaced a couple years ago, it was right around 12 volts.

The other thing we don't know is how dead the batteries were, it's possible the cells were still at a safe level but too low for the light to turn on or function properly.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

I'm feeling a bit naïve, didn't know you could buy used things on amazon. I assumed they were new so will have to ask about that. Personally I wouldn't have any idea how to check the battery using Niteriders weird multi-pin connectors but would still be concerned not knowing how long the batteries were stored at very low charge.
Mole


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

MRMOLE said:


> I was reading a post from someone who bought two Niterider 1400 lights from an amazon seller and the batteries were totally dead when he received them. None of the many lights I've purchased have ever come with batteries in this condition which I understand is bad for them. How damaging is this for the batteries and what should he do to check to see if maybe he should complain? It's a current thread so you can answer here and I will relay any useful information or just post an answer in his Niterider 1400 thread. Niterider batteries are expensive and hate to see him get ripped off if this is a big problem. Thanks!
> Mole


Mole, I understood the batteries were dead, but when charged one he was able to take some beam pictures. I didn't see any complains. 
" The batteries were dead when I opened them so after they got a full charge I tried one out in the back yard."

So we don't know in what state they were. They might be empty or just protection circuit kicked in for some reason. Not shure if the pack could be openned. If not the only health indication is voltage after full charge and after day or two of resting. All other methods involve capacity measuring with some reliable hobby charger or opening the pack and inspect the cells voltages.

PS. More pins on the connector can be good thing and they might do balanced charge or at least control the voltages of cells in series. Checking voltage at those pins is bit difficult, but using DMM with probes and thin tips should do it. No shakey hands allowed, though


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

ledoman said:


> Mole, I understood the batteries were dead, but when charged one he was able to take some beam pictures. I didn't see any complains.
> " The batteries were dead when I opened them so after they got a full charge I tried one out in the back yard."
> 
> So we don't know in what state they were. They might be empty or just protection circuit kicked in for some reason. Not shure if the pack could be openned. If not the only health indication is voltage after full charge and after day or two of resting. All other methods involve capacity measuring with some reliable hobby charger or opening the pack and inspect the cells voltages.


Thanks for the reply. I don't know what the current Niterider packs look like but the last one I owned was sealed. Any functional symptoms he should look for besides inability to hold a full charge and notably shorter runtimes than advertised?
Mole


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

We don't know what cells are in the pack, couldn't even see the capacity on their accessories page. One drawing for the light states it is only 4.4Ah which implies 2200mAh cells. 
Surely discharge graph would tell it most. I have no other idea which symtoms to look beside measuring voltages at different stages.

Oh yes, if there are 3 pins it *might* show voltage of each pair. If so it can show unbalancing if the charger or protection circuit doesn't do balancing. So getting me more info on that would be beneficial.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

ledoman said:


> We don't know what cells are in the pack, couldn't even see the capacity on their accessories page. One drawing for the light states it is only 4.4Ah which implies 2200mAh cells.
> Surely discharge graph would tell it most. I have no other idea which symtoms to look beside measuring voltages at different stages.
> 
> Oh yes, if there are 3 pins it *might* show voltage of each pair. If so it can show unbalancing if the charger or protection circuit doesn't do balancing. So getting me more info on that would be beneficial.


I've been awake for 22 hrs. now so I'm going to try to get some sleep. Will post my battery concerns in his thread later and refer him to this thread if things don't seem right. Hopefully he can provide some pictures of the connectors and answer questions I can't without the light. Thanks for the help.
Mole


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

MRMOLE said:


> I'm feeling a bit naïve, didn't know you could buy used things on amazon.


Anyone can set up a seller's account, and sell whatever they want. Have you never noticed some of the hits during searches list 'Used offers for..."?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Flamingtaco said:


> Anyone can set up a seller's account, and sell whatever they want. Have you never noticed some of the hits during searches list 'Used offers for..."?


Very little time spent on Amazon and not very observant. 

*** In regards to the Guy with the Niterider 1400's they were new and have a warranty. He was concerned with the state of charge of the batteries already and is going to use the lights some and see if any battery problems show up.***

Mole


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> I'm feeling a bit naïve, didn't know you could buy used things on amazon. Mole


Refurbs too, I buy refurbed HP Printers when the ink runs out..



http://amzn.to/2vHEsPU


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> I'm feeling a bit naïve, didn't know you could buy used things on amazon. I assumed they were new so will have to ask about that. Personally I wouldn't have any idea how to check the battery using Niteriders weird multi-pin connectors but would still be concerned not knowing how long the batteries were stored at very low charge.
> Mole


One of the reasons I steered away from Niterider in the past was because they began to use proprietary battery configurations. The multi-prong plug you mentioned is indicative of this same practice. Although I don't know for sure I'm assuming that the electronics that control the lamp are housed within the battery. Quite possibly, because of this, the batteries are exposed to a higher self-discharge rate. This would mean of course that the cut-off would kick in at some point. Of course I'm speculating because I've never owned one of these but that's my take on it. Perhaps if the user had plugged the battery in for a couple seconds it might have reset and worked right out of the box. No way to know that now.

Only way to know now how good the battery is would be to do either a run time test or a discharge test using a hobby charger. This is assuming of course that the battery will discharge without the lamp being attached.

Last but not least you can send an email to Niterider and hopefully get a timely response.


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## neabue (Jan 5, 2011)

Does anyone know where to find a 2s1p battery pack where I can use my own 18650s? Looking for one to use on the helmet with a yinding... The fenix ba4c case seems to be sold out or discontinued, are there any other options for a pack with replaceable batteries? Thanks!


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

C&B Seen (UK) has one. Check delivery charges (it's reasonable to me). I also spotted MagicShine having one, but not sure if that one can be opened to swap cells.

-Garry


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## neabue (Jan 5, 2011)

garrybunk said:


> C&B Seen (UK) has one. Check delivery charges (it's reasonable to me). I also spotted MagicShine having one, but not sure if that one can be opened to swap cells.
> 
> -Garry


Thanks Garry, I hadn't seen that C&B one before. It looks a little bulky for a 2x & I'm not a huge fan of the snap on cap vs screw on, but may give it a try! The magicshine packs don't seem to be able to swap the cells...

I'm considering building my own with a battery holder like this  and soldering on the right connector. Any reason I would need to add on a PCB if I only plan on using protected batteries?

any other recommendations out there? thanks!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

neabue, what is the reason you would want to use your own protected cells at first place? 

With the battery holder you linked you might get low power out of it since there is some resistance in the springs in addition to those in your cells protection circuits. Also protected cells might fit very tight if at all. Next you would need to completly replace the wireing. 
Not to mention you would need to seal the pack somehow. Not worth the hassle unless you have some very good reasons.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Agree with ledoman. I have one of those for testing purposes and even unprotected cells fit tight - no way protected cells will fit (of course some cases may be longer than others). And yes, there will be high resistance in those springs.
Why don't you just go the DIY pack route (if you're careful enough to handle soldering around cells)? Here's mine, but you could also utilize a NOS laptop battery if you know which batterys to target on Ebay that would have decent higher capacity cells. (Most brand-name laptop packs are built with "middle grade" cells with middle to low capacity to keep costs down. Forget the no-name aftermarket ones.) It's an idea.

WAIT - it just dawned on me you were only wanting a 2-cell setup. That would be even easier as all you have to do is buy your choice of 18650's with tabs - like here and here.

-Garry


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## neabue (Jan 5, 2011)

The main reason for wanting to use loose cells was because I have some already for my flashlights, and like the idea of just carrying two loose cells to replace them on a longer ride rather than buying/carrying a whole separate battery pack. I could then charge all 4 batteries (2 for battery pack, 2 for spare) in my XTAR charger at once, keep them balanced, etc.. I didn't know the springs would have that detrimental of an effect tho, I thought the Fenix case had them and it seemed to get decent reviews? I don't mind doing some soldering work, and would put the pack in a neoprene pouch on the helmet. But out of curiosity, if protected cells did fit in a pack like that, an additional PCB wouldn't be needed right?

I use the solarstorm 2s2p loose cells battery pack for my bar light and haven't had any problems with it yet. I think it can also run with just 2 cells, so carrying two spare cells could also be used in it if need be. But it sounds like a dedicated/soldered 2s1p pack would be a better way to go than one with replaceable cells? in which case I'd probably just buy this here at kaidomain. I thought I saw one of your reviews saying it was a decent pack.. I still like the idea of using replaceable cells, but I would hate to pay more for a holder to use my own cells (C&B seen $25) when this one (Kaidomain $22) would give better performance for cheaper?

Again, thanks for the insight & advice!


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Yeah that KD pack should be very good (so long as you don't have shipping issues). 

Those springs in the cheap holders are most likely high resistance low quality springs. The Fenix case almost certainly uses higher quality springs. I also modded my case removing the top springs and replacing them with brass buttons. When using a 2 cell case/pack you need to minimize voltage sag to power high-powered lights at full brightness (also good idea to use high-drain cells like the GA's that KD pack uses). The dedicated packs have less points of resistance, so yes generally are better.

Correct - you don't need a protection circuit if you use protected cells.

-Garry


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Those 2 cell packs are great. Biggest shipping issue there is ordering small orders like a single pack. Sometimes their a bit slow but keep on them and youll get the packs. Really the best way to go. No loose cells laying around, 2 cell packs like that are pretty good about staying balanced as they use panasonic ncr18650ga cells (some of the best there is).

I have 2 fenix cases, if you were in the states Id send you one. Got it as a spare while we could. Havent used it though. Use 2 cell packs (have on of the KD packs then one of ours, about the same exact thing except connector). But have my fenix case if I want/need to use it.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## neabue (Jan 5, 2011)

Gotcha, I'll go ahead and try out the KD pack and hope it ships without issue.

RAKC - sent you a PM about the fenix case as well...

Thanks!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

neabue said:


> Does anyone know where to find a 2s1p battery pack where I can use my own 18650s? Looking for one to use on the helmet with a yinding... The fenix ba4c case seems to be sold out or discontinued, are there any other options for a pack with replaceable batteries? Thanks!


Personally I don't see why something like these wouldn't work...BUT....There are problems that have to be dealt with when using a system where the batteries are not soldered into the circuit. A system that relies upon friction contact will experience some minor voltage drop, particularly when the contacts begin to gather up oxidation. Oxidation though can be cleaned off so the added resistance / voltage drops can be kept to a minimal. The same thing occurs with torches so this is nothing new. I clean my torch contacts with a pencil eraser which works very well. Whenever I do this it's amazing how much black stuff I see on the eraser after I'm done. ( I clean all electrical contacts, even the threads ).

Problem number two; With the cells in place you'll likely need a strap of Velcro or rubber bands /o-rings to help keep the cells from moving around while being used. Then you need to cover the holder with something to keep moisture out and then figure out mounting issues. Not a big issue making it waterproof if you don't see any rain but rain happens once in a while ( need I say ). Lastly you're going to have to buy an extension wire / plug so you can cannibalize the wire / plug to finish your pack set-up.

Yeah, it can work but if you do want to exchange cells while on a ride ( believe me on this ), it can be a real PITA to open the pack and set-up the whole thing...then when you get home you have to tear the whole pack open again to charge the cells. It's just so much simpler / convenient to buy the packs already assembled, sealed, soldered with PCB protection already in place. I used to use a 4-cell holder. While it worked it was indeed a PITA to mess with. Much easier to exchange water-proof dedicated packs but to each their own.

The KD 2-cell packs look like a great deal if you don't mind waiting for the Chinese shipping. The big issue with buying cell packs from the Chinese is that sometimes they run out and they get back-ordered. Add to that this is the time of year when people are buying more batteries.

My last two cell I bought from Hunk Lee ( ebay vendor ). Hunk Lee builds the pack to order using the cells you want. Matter of fact I might see if he has access to the new 20700 Sanyo cells. A 4000mAh two cell set-up for helmet use would be sweet.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> ...My last two cell I bought from Hunk Lee ( ebay vendor ). Hunk Lee builds the pack to order using the cells you want. Matter of fact I might see if he has access to the new 20700 Sanyo cells. A 4000mAh two cell set-up for helmet use would be sweet.


From my last post..^.; I sent an email off to Hunk Lee. He says he's going to look into getting some of the newer 20700 cells and build some bike light packs. Hopefully he'll send me an email when he does. Be ready for some sweet 8000+mAh 4-cell setups and some 4000+mAh 2-cell set-ups. These cells are rated for high discharge so even a two cell might power a lamp like my ITUO XP3.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Good to know. Based on HKJ (member of BLF) tests Sanyo NCR20700B 4000mAh is very prommising and keeps voltage higher.
If we compare with tipicaly used Panny NCR18650B 3400mAh it is good to know:

25% more weight gives you 15% more capacity (using nominal capacity data). In reality it can provide 22% more capacity at 2A and 3A (the usual ones we use), but still provide higher voltage, thus much more energy. Capacity wise it is pretty linear with weight, so no benefit looking only this.
Volume is 16.5 against 22.0 cm3 so the 20700 is also 25% bigger wich lines with weight.

*What I see more important is higher voltage curve*. It can be very important to regulated drivers pulling less current (think of Zanflare B3) and maybe somewhat for status led colors. Using HKJ comparator you can see the difference between the two at 2A and 3A.









You can compare many other cells he has tested and/or chose different currents to see voltage curves.

I agree with Cat it would be nice to use 2 cell packs with 20700 instead of tipical Panny 4 cell pack for some cases, but keep in mind you would get bit lower voltage curve since the current is doubled on single cell. Then comparation would look like this:







Remark: I've used 5A since there is no 4A curve, so the blue curve would be bit higher in reality.

Of course there is still noticeable benefit in overall performance and runtime, no dubt.

So at the end we gain:
- about same capacity per weight
- higher voltage curves at same current
- smaller size (not volume) per capacity


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Cat-man-do said:


> From my last post..^.; I sent an email off to Hunk Lee. He says he's going to look into getting some of the newer 20700 cells and build some bike light packs. Hopefully he'll send me an email when he does. Be ready for some sweet 8000+mAh 4-cell setups and some 4000+mAh 2-cell set-ups. These cells are rated for high discharge so even a two cell might power a lamp like my ITUO XP3.


Sweeeeeeeeeet! Looking forward to these!

-Garry


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

garrybunk said:


> Sweeeeeeeeeet! Looking forward to these!
> 
> -Garry


I'm excited.
A two cell will be better than a no name 4 cell!


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## Ivan87 (Oct 30, 2012)

Someone should ask kaidomain as they are stocking these battery's?

http://www.kaidomain.com/Search/SearchResult.20700


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Oh Ledoman, where are you? 

-Garry


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Ivan87 said:


> Someone should ask kaidomain as they are stocking these battery's?
> 
> http://www.kaidomain.com/Search/SearchResult.20700


I agree. If Kaidomain has these someone needs to see if they can build packs with these ( as they did with the Panasonic cells ). Even if they agree it's likely not going to happen overnight. I can't remember how long it took KD to get in the better Panasonic cells and then start to produce 2 and 4-cell packs but it did take some time before they started to offer the better battery packs on their website.

Still, there might be a problem with trying to get the batteries shipped into the USA. Even Hunk Lee mentioned that he now has problems getting the batteries shipped via Air. Kaidomain is going to have the same problem.

Nonetheless, I'm going to see if I can build a fire under HL's butt. I'll tell him that I've got other people interested in the same cells. I'm tempted to try to build the packs myself...*sigh*...if only I had a spot welder. Now if only I could find someone selling the cells with tabs...:ihih:


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

Just need to cable it, rubber dip it and give it a test :thumbsup:

















Increase in capacity and size increase versus an 18650 pack appears to be worthwhile.

***


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

garrybunk said:


> Oh Ledoman, where are you?


I'm on vacations 

OK I can ask KD if can make 2 cell pack using NCR20700B but it's not going to be cheap if they decide to built it. It could easily be as much as standard 4 cell pack. Since the cells are pretty new they are expensive. Next they would need to use protection circuit with 10A since cells can deliver quite high current. And lastly they would need to produce new rubber sleeve and new pouch. And if you ask me, for such current the connector should be different.

Calculating all that price/performance(capacity) will be worse than any other good pack at KD. For average user not interesting thus KD would not make any profit out of it.

I think this thing is more "nice to have" than reality at this moment. Still KD might decide differently. And what cable lenght should we suggest?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> I'm on vacations
> 
> OK I can ask KD if can make 2 cell pack using NCR20700B but it's not going to be cheap if they decide to built it. It could easily be as much as standard 4 cell pack. Since the cells are pretty new they are expensive. Next they would need to use protection circuit with 10A since cells can deliver quite high current. And lastly they would need to produce new rubber sleeve and new pouch. And if you ask me, for such current the connector should be different.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter what KD wants to do. They'll do it now or do it later. _The industry standard has now changed._ People are going to want torches that work with the newer size and they are going to want the bigger batteries. It's just a fact. When the industry standard changes the manufacturers have to adapt. They either do it now and make a boat load of money selling the newer torches and batteries or they fail to innovate and someone else makes all the money. It's their choice. We live in the information age. Once manufacturers start to make lamps that are using the larger cells the info will spread like wildfire. ( Note; Manufacturers like Dewalt are already using the cells inside their wireless drills ) Do I want a 20700 version of my BLF-A6 and Convoy S2's (?)....you bet your life I do.....Old USA saying, "Make it and they will come".

I can't speak for others but I'm not going to buy any new 18650 battery packs. If I buy new packs they are going to be with the newer 20700 cells. If no one is selling them by the time I need new packs I'll make the packs myself. I figure mine are good for a another couple years but I'd love to have torches that use the newer cells. I'm figuring if you went on CPF and asked the members there if they want torches at use the newer size battery my CAt gut is telling me that likely 80% are going to want the larger size.

Too bad the larger size cell is just too wide for the current torches or else all they would need would be a slightly longer extension cap/switch assembly.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Thx for the info everyone. I fixed the switch on my BT70 and want to blast it on a dark night and was looking into a KD light but think I'll wait too for the 20700's. This thing needs a good heavy duty battery.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Found out new cells 21700 out there.








https://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10034564/8809701-ijoy-21700-3-7v-3750mah-rechargeable-li-ion








https://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10034838/8836602-authentic-geteed-imr21700-3-7v-4800mah








https://www.fasttech.com/products/0...ung-inr21700-48g-3-6v-4800mah-rechargeable-li


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Found out new cells 21700 out there.


Yep, I saw some of the newer cells listed on Fastech when I was first talking about the newer cells. Fastech claims to measure the actual capacity on their cells but I'm hesitant to believe a review by a seller. Nevertheless it's nice to see the 21 series finally being sold. Those off-brand cells I'd be wary of but at least anything with Samsung listed on it I'd go with.

A while back I remember someone was wondering why there is no upgraded 26650 cell. I too often wondered about that but one of the articles I read said that the main reason was that it is easier to keep long/skinny cells cooler than the wider 26650 cells. Of course the mentality behind this has to do with keeping cells cool when in automotive use so that's why thinner cells are getting all the love.

BTW I'll send Hunk Lee the link to the Samsung 21700's...:thumbsup:


----------



## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Great. Will also ask KD about 21700.

As I can see Samsung 48G is so new that I couldn't find review, but HKJ from BLF has it in queue, rewraped version, though. iJoy version has been tested -> HERE.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Great. Will also ask KD about 21700.
> 
> As I can see Samsung 48G is so new that I coulndn't find review, but HKJ from BLF has it in queue, rewraped version, though.* iJoy version has been tested *-> HERE.


Interesting, his rating is about 100mAh less than the Fastech rating. I had to laugh though when he said he contacted the manufacturer and told them they had to change the listed capacity on the cells....Really :skep: Does anyone really think that the manufacturer is going to stop production and change their labels just because some battery geek tells them to?...

That Samsung 21700 cell is a monster. If it gets a real 4700mAh that is some feat. Heck, that's more than any 26650 cell I have. I'm going to have to see if I can get one to fit inside my Wiz 1. Not worried about the width as I'll be using an adapter but the length might be an issue. I'll need to construct a dummy cell that is 70.2mm to see if it will fit.

I'm having second thoughts on whether a 2 x 20700 or a 2 x 21700 would work ( weight wise ) on a helmet. I don't often use the two cell set-ups I have on the helmet but when I do it's at my personal limit as far as weight goes. Looks like there's a 22g difference in weight per cell when compared to a 3400mAh Panasonic. Looks like I really need a digital scale. Keep in mind that 44gm's is just the extra weight of the two larger cells but if the pack is covered in plastic or rubber I'm sure the larger covering will add a few more grams as well.


----------



## chupalt (Oct 1, 2008)

I just wanted to post and recommend against buying packs from KD. I ordered a couple packs on 9/7. Tracking information never updated. On 9/25 I contacted them and they said the package had been returned and that they were trying to ship Bpost with updated tracking information. That tracking is still showing that they never received the item. In the mean time, I've ordered 2 packs from hunk lee and have received them in 3-4 days both times. Don't waste your time with KD, it's not worth the risk.


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## juhake (Oct 26, 2007)

Has anyone found a battery tester device, that shows the remaining voltage of a battery pack? The regular 5.4mm "Magicshine-type".

It should be quite small show I can put it in a backpack pocket.


----------



## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

chupalt said:


> I just wanted to post and recommend against buying packs from KD. I ordered a couple packs on 9/7. Tracking information never updated. On 9/25 I contacted them and they said the package had been returned and that they were trying to ship Bpost with updated tracking information. That tracking is still showing that they never received the item. In the mean time, I've ordered 2 packs from hunk lee and have received them in 3-4 days both times. Don't waste your time with KD, it's not worth the risk.


Yes, they have confirmed they are having problems with various couriers who refuse to ship li-Ion batteries. It is not that simple as it might seems from outer perspective. It depends where the sender is located, not all can have same services. And some people are unpatient and spoiled with other services. Some opens disputes very soon. I can understand, but they should also understand situation. From time to time every seller has some sort of troubles sending batteries. I can't even order Li-Ion cells anymore from some very well known sellers.

Right now KD is very unhappy with this and don't want even to think about building packs with 20700 or 21700 cells.

chupalt, it would be good to know which service Hunk Lee is using? Which packs did you order and was there additional shiping fee?


----------



## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

juhake said:


> Has anyone found a battery tester device, that shows the remaining voltage of a battery pack? The regular 5.4mm "Magicshine-type".
> 
> It should be quite small show I can put it in a backpack pocket.


Use some Mini DC 30V Led Voltmeter from eBay or elsewhere. I suggest to use red one which has lower voltage operational limit.
Attach some connector like this or this and you are done. Fast and simple. You can even calibrate it with variable resistor on the back.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chupalt said:


> I just wanted to post and recommend against buying packs from KD. I ordered a couple packs on 9/7. Tracking information never updated. On 9/25 I contacted them and they said the package had been returned and that they were trying to ship Bpost with updated tracking information. That tracking is still showing that they never received the item. In the mean time, I've ordered 2 packs from hunk lee and have received them in 3-4 days both times. Don't waste your time with KD, it's not worth the risk.


I don't know how Hunk Lee does it. He claims he has problems with shipping too but I've yet to hear anyone who said they ordered from Hunk Lee not get their order in a timely fashion. ( Hunk did mention he was trying to get a USA Warehouse shipping site but I don't know if that has happened yet. ) I just checked his website earlier tonight and he still isn't selling any packs made with the newer ( 20 or 21 series cells ). I might send him another email asking if he is getting any in again.



juhake said:


> Has anyone found a battery tester device, that shows the remaining voltage of a battery pack? The regular 5.4mm "Magicshine-type".
> 
> It should be quite small show I can put it in a backpack pocket.


You could take one of those digital read outs that Ledoman linked to and if you have a spare MS extension, cut it in half and splice in the voltage meter. Then all you have to do is plug it into your battery ...OR...get a "Y" cable and just plug it in full time.

Personally, I take a different approach to such matters as, "Am I out of juice yet"?. I never let it worry me because most of my night rides don't last that long anyway and if I run out I have a good 18650 torch as back up on stand-by. Besides, if the meter tells you that you are almost out of juice...what are you going to do if you don't have enough power to get you back to the car? IMO it's best to charge all your batteries before every ride and ALWAYS carry a back-up. Use only the amount of light you need to see for the moment and you should be fine...assuming of course you aren't using some cheap Chinese off brand/recycled cells.

Either way in order to know what to expect from your batteries you will still need to do a run time test, periodically testing the voltage till the battery shuts down ( making note how long it took between measurements. ) Of course cold weather changes everything. That's why I never bother worrying about voltage indicators. My torch can get me three or more hours ( on medium mode ) in a pinch. I don't do "all nighters" but if I did I'd use my packs with the highest capacity and carry some extra cells for the torch ( or an extra battery pack ).


----------



## juhake (Oct 26, 2007)

ledoman said:


> Use some Mini DC 30V Led Voltmeter from eBay or elsewhere. I suggest to use red one which has lower voltage operational limit.
> Attach some connector like this or this and you are done. Fast and simple. You can even calibrate it with variable resistor on the back.


Great stuff, thanks, ordered. I just wonder why this hasn't been already made into a product in $5-10 range.

(
found them little bit cheaper

10pcs 12V Male + Female 2.1x5.5mm DC Power Plug Jack Adapter Connector New | eBay

Mini Two Wires Digital Voltmeter DC 4.5-30V LED Diaplay Panel Voltage Meter Tool | eBay

)


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

@juhake...I edited my post just before your last post. Some comments there you might like to read.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Cat, I agree with your opinion. Mostly I'm using this LED voltmeters before and after charging (and diagnostic sometimes) so I know what's going on. For novice users it can be good to have it on terrain until they get feeling about batteries. After that not really neccesary.

Device that would be really usable would be capacity meter similar to those for USB, something like this: LCD USB Detector Voltmeter Ammeter Power Capacity Tester Voltage Current Meter | eBay
Would need to work in both directions - charging and discharging. Maybe linked device could be usable if moded with additional connectors. I might try that just for fun.


----------



## chupalt (Oct 1, 2008)

Cat-man-do said:


> I don't know how Hunk Lee does it. He claims he has problems with shipping too but I've yet to hear anyone who said they ordered from Hunk Lee not get their order in a timely fashion. ( Hunk did mention he was trying to get a USA Warehouse shipping site but I don't know if that has happened yet. ) I just checked his website earlier tonight and he still isn't selling any packs made with the newer ( 20 or 21 series cells ). I might send him another email asking if he is getting any in again.


Both my packs shipped from a NJ warehouse. Makes it super easy.

Panasonic NCR18650B 7.4V 3400mAh Protected Li-ion battery for Bike Light 2S1P US | eBay

Panasonic NCR18650B 7.4V 6800mAh Protected Li-ion battery for Bike Light 2S2P US | eBay


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Very nice!

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

OK it looks Hunk Lee has established US warehouse. This helps to the US buyers but *helps nothing to the rest of the world*.

I've checked some packs and most were in the US so no meal for other buyers. The rest like this has high shipping fee (for me it is $33.95) :madman:


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

ledoman said:


> OK it looks Hunk Lee has established US warehouse. This helps to the US buyers but *helps nothing to the rest of the world*. :madman:


Time for that NorCal vacation, weather is perfekt right now!

https://www.google.com/flights/#search;f=LJU;t=SMF


----------



## patski (Dec 12, 2005)




----------



## juhake (Oct 26, 2007)

I just hope some manufacturer would make a decent version of 
this
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...tant-4-x-18650-battery-case-bicyc-943638.html

in 4*21700... With all the shortcomings fixed.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

*USB Multimeter*



ledoman said:


> Device that would be really usable would be capacity meter similar to those for USB, something like this: LCD USB Detector Voltmeter Ammeter Power Capacity Tester Voltage Current Meter | eBay
> Would need to work in both directions - charging and discharging. Maybe linked device could be usable if moded with additional connectors. I might try that just for fun.


Here you go: 
aliexpress.com/item/High-quality-2016-Auto-Tester-Car-voltage-current-capacity-testing-voltmeter-Battery-tester-doctor-Monitoring/32679175674.html

Or use this set of crocodile clip cables with an USB multimeter of your choice:
aliexpress.com/item/USB-Crocodile-wire-Alligator-clips-Male-female-to-USB-tester-Detector-voltage-meter-ammeter-capacity-power/32723039861.html
Alligator Trial USB Crocodile Clips to Female Male Detector Tester Wire Black

In these reviews from HKJ you can learn about good USB multimeters:
Test of USB YZXStudio ZY1271
Test/review of RD Tech USB 3.0 tester
Test of USB voltage tester OLED


----------



## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

juhake said:


> I just hope some manufacturer would make a decent version of ... 4*21700... With all the shortcomings fixed.


There is one: 
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/f...70-box-mod-and-the-ijoy-20700-battery.806361/


----------



## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I've ordered this device: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/150...ammeter-battery-power-supply/32821454762.html

I hope it has much less resistance than USB testers and shurely can stand more current so also more powerful lights/battery combo can be tested. I might try USB tester as well.


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

*Cabled and dipped*









***


----------



## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Nice packs! Do you wrap them before dipping? It looks to me you don't use protection circuit. Don't needed if you know what you are doing and have reliable charger, though.


----------



## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

Always use protection circuits on all my batteries :thumbsup: It is on side opposite of the cable, you can kind of see them in post #246. Yep, shrink wrap them before dipping them, makes removing the rubber dip easier if re-cabling is ever needed.

Now I just need to get out and do a long ride and check the runtimes.


****


----------



## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

Nice! is that plasti-dipped?? my plasti dipped batteries are pretty scratched through.



scar said:


> View attachment 1161128
> ***


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

patski said:


> Nice! is that plasti-dipped?? my plasti dipped batteries are pretty scratched through.


Yep, Plasti-Dip. I do about 4 dips and they really take a beating. Helps shield them from the cold in the winter also.

****


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

scar said:


> View attachment 1161128
> 
> 
> ***


Nice! You know you might have mentioned the listed capacity of the 2Series set-up. Since you have these I assume you also use them. Do you notice any major difference in the weight vs. a standard 2 cell setup ( when on the helmet )?

Looking forward I can see myself going to 2 cell 20700's or 2 cell 21700's battery setups, at least in the summer or when the weather is above 50°F. Rarely do I ride more than two hours at night. The older I get the more likely that is to be true. I usually run my lamps on medium most of the time so a good two cell should easily last me more than two hours.


----------



## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

^^^^

Thanks Cat. I have been using 2600mah cells for my 2 cell 18650 packs. Not much difference it weight when holding in my hands. I have not been able to ride with the new pack yet as I have been super busy lately building lights as the days are getting shorter and people are still wanting to get out and ride! Always my busiest time of year.

I kind of have the same problem trying to get in a long enough ride to check the battery capacity. Most of my rides are at 5 am so currently needing lights for about 2 hours. That will be changing here soon. I do have a "urban" bike path ride that I do from my house out to a lake that is all on a crushed gravel/dirt path that ends up being 24 miles round trip that I may just have to get out and do before the snow really starts flying (had our first snow of the year on Monday then 70 degrees yesterday).

***


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## nick d (May 25, 2007)

having not gone on a night ride in several years, im preparing to get into it again this season. whats some good options for battery packs? i have among other lights some of the original geomangear magicshines so they would need to be compatible with that type of light.


----------



## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

nick d said:


> having not gone on a night ride in several years, im preparing to get into it again this season. whats some good options for battery packs? i have among other lights some of the original geomangear magicshines so they would need to be compatible with that type of light.


Here you go with DC5521 plug compatible battery cases: 
gearbest.com/diy-parts-and-tools/pp_119294.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...compatible-battery-pack-isnt-pos-1056303.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...2-cell-helmet-battery-case-review-942264.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...terproof-bicycle-battery-packs-gb-982688.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/2s1p-8-4v-3500mah-battery-pack-kaidomain-999743.html


----------



## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

nick d said:


> having not gone on a night ride in several years, im preparing to get into it again this season. whats some good options for battery packs? i have among other lights some of the original geomangear magicshines so they would need to be compatible with that type of light.


Your best budget route is Hunk Lee packs from a US Warehouse - LINK.

Next best US source is going to be Action LED.

Random packs on Amazon and such can't be trusted. Unless otherwise verified, assumed to be made from recycled laptop cells or "fake" / very low quality cells.

-Garry


----------



## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

garrybunk said:


> Random packs on Amazon and such can't be trusted. Unless otherwise verified, assumed to be made from recycled laptop cells or "fake" / very low quality cells. -Garry


I tend to agree about Amazon but I lent a 4yo pack to a friend last night and it lasted for the 90 min ride no problem, he was also using my "new" $6 BT40. cheapo amazon 6 cell battery

BT40 High Performance 1600 Lumens


----------



## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Anyone know if there is a test or a tester that can determine the condition of individual cells in a standard 4 or 6 cell pack? I have at least one pack that lasts only 45 minutes or so and would hate to dispose of it if only cell is failing.
I "ass"ume you have to open up and isolate the individual cells to tests but thought I'd ask.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Of course you have to tear it apart if you want to test every single cell. There is no other way. However I would test each set of cells in parallel first. Just need to unwrap. When you determine voltage of each set after full charge you might just need to balance the pack.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

ledoman said:


> Of corse you have to tear it apart if you want to test every single cell. Ther is no other way. However I would test each set of cells in parallel first. Yust need to unwrap. When you determine voltage of each set after full charge you might just need to balance the pack.


Cool, thanks.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Here's a pic showing how I tore open a pack and connected it to a standard 18650 charger using a piece of wood dowel rod as a "fake cell". Just be sure you have polarity correct.










-Garry


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## nick d (May 25, 2007)

garrybunk said:


> Your best budget route is Hunk Lee packs from a US Warehouse - LINK.
> 
> Next best US source is going to be Action LED.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. Looks like the hunk lee packs use a threaded connector? Will they fit the classic magic shine type connector still?


----------



## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Yes they fit, though they don't click/snap together. They don't fall apart either. You can request the MS style connector but someone else reported a 30day wait for it. 

-Garry


----------



## nick d (May 25, 2007)

garrybunk said:


> Yes they fit, though they don't click/snap together. They don't fall apart either. You can request the MS style connector but someone else reported a 30day wait for it.
> 
> -Garry


I requested the ms style connector and purchased 3. Hopefully they won't be delayed, 30 days won't cut it. I sent a message asking how long it will take to get those batteries with the ms style connector. Will post back if he replies.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

I few weeks ago I asked about the ms style connectors but think something was lost in translation so I just bought a single pack. It came with the threaded connector but I used it last night and it worked great and didn't come apart, even without electrical tape I thought I'd have to use.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Would you please tell what is cable length and what AWG size are wires? AWG is normaly written on cable besides teperature and some other things. It would be good to know.
Do you get also some kind of pouch and rubberized sleeve to seal the pack?


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

upstateSC-rider said:


> Anyone know if there is a test or a tester that can determine the condition of individual cells in a standard 4 or 6 cell pack? I have at least one pack that lasts only 45 minutes or so and would hate to dispose of it if only cell is failing.
> I "ass"ume you have to open up and isolate the individual cells to tests but thought I'd ask.


It seems Ledoman forgot to ask you a couple things.  How old is the pack (?) Is this a cheap Chinese pack or a good brand name pack? How often do you use it and how many times has it been recharged(?)...are we talking about Li-ion 18650 cells or something else (?)..What lamp are you using and on what mode for how long ? How long did it run when it was new? Do you usually run it down till depletion or is this something just recent? Helps to have some basic info before tearing into something. That's because if the battery is just old you might be better off just getting a new battery.


----------



## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Maybe I forgot something, but I thought we were talking about Hunk Lee packs which should be good and made of branded cells, afaik.


----------



## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

ledoman said:


> Maybe I forgot something, but I thought we were talking about Hunk Lee packs which should be good and made of branded cells, afaik.


Not Hunk Lee but Magicshine so I "ass"ume good quality, however I've since bought the HL and it's working great. I also bought one of those 4-cell packs that you can open up and take out the cells to charge individually and it's still working well. 
When I remember to remove the top to eliminate parasitic losses.


----------



## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Not sure if it was already posted but might be interested for some people expecting to see 20700 cells in battery packs. Here is HKJ test of Sanyo NCR20700B:

Test of Sanyo NCR20700B 4000mAh (Red)

HKJ Conclusion:

"This size has more capacity and slightly higher voltage than 18650, without being much larger.
Being from Sanyo/Panasonic it is a very good cell."


----------



## nick d (May 25, 2007)

So far my HulkLee purchase is turning out to be a typical chibay experience. i asked for the ms style connector and got a reply that they had shipped the "standard" one and it would be at least 30 days if i wanted the ms style one. i even referenced the number from their chart and used very simple english but they sent a reply that they didnt understand me. hopefully i get something i can use...


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

nick d said:


> So far my HulkLee purchase is turning out to be a typical chibay experience. i asked for the ms style connector and got a reply that they had shipped the "standard" one and it would be at least 30 days if i wanted the ms style one. i even referenced the number from their chart and used very simple english but they sent a reply that they didnt understand me. hopefully i get something i can use...


Yes, that does seem to be a problem with dealing with them. It helps if you can send a link or attachment with a picture of what you want. No guarantees you get what you want though. However, even if you get the threaded type it will still be usable.


----------



## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> However, even if you get the threaded type it will still be usable.


I've had no issues with the dreaded threaded connector on my Gloworms and assorted chicrap lights.


----------



## nick d (May 25, 2007)

so using the 4400 mAh battery from hunk, would it be an acceptable practice to run two of the classic magicshine lights off of one battery using a y splitter? id like to get about an hour of run time, and im comfortable using them on med since i also have a helmet light which is allways on med.


----------



## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

By classic MS lights, you mean the 808 ones? Like this:









2200mAh packs are pretty low by today's standard which means cells will most likely be lower quality (not well suited for high current draw lights), but I expect you'd be ok. I bet those MS808's don't draw much power even on high. By pure math, wanting 1 hour of runtime means you can pull 2.2A per lighthead and still get 1hr runtime (in reality, bump that down to say 2.0A). I bet those lightheads don't even pull 2A on high. I know the clones don't usually come close to that. So, yes, I think you'll be fine.

-Garry


----------



## nick d (May 25, 2007)

ok so no harm in giving it a try? the only question is run time? and yes its that exact light, although IIRC my wire comes out the rear of the mount.


----------



## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Related to batteries and topic above this might be of interest for someone - Capacity indicator.

Ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_od...or+.TRS0&_nkw=2S+Capacity+Indicator+&_sacat=0

Aliexpress:
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesal..._20171113113901&SearchText=capacity+indicator

A bit of imagination and some work and it might be usable even during the ride.

Edit: This looks quite interesting https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...apacity-Indicator-1S/2856009_32833700512.html


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

nick d said:


> ok so no harm in giving it a try? the only question is run time?


Right, no harm. Worst that could happen (assuming you're using correct cabling and not building your own, causing a short, and thereby burning your house down, losing limbs, etc.) is that the lights won't run at max power and you'll have reduced runtime. Just be sure to use a high quality Y-cable to try and reduce the added resistance.

-Garry


----------



## nick d (May 25, 2007)

ok cool, yeah its a legit y cable not a homemade one. i got it from geomangear back in the day along with my lights so im assuming its magicshine branded.


----------



## nick d (May 25, 2007)

so the threaded connector battery that hulklee mistakenly sent me does not play nice with the connectors on my lights. i use a d99 on the helmet put the batterypack in my hydapack pocket and even the slightest tug pulls it out. how good are the BAK magicshine packs on actionled?


----------



## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

nick d said:


> so the threaded connector battery that hulklee mistakenly sent me does not play nice with the connectors on my lights. i use a d99 on the helmet put the batterypack in my hydapack pocket and even the slightest tug pulls it out. how good are the BAK magicshine packs on actionled?


Those Magicshine batteries with the BAK cells are OK quality but capacity of battery is pretty small. Same battery is also available with either Samsung or Panasonic cells both of which offer more capacity for the extra they cost. Personally I'd look at the new slimline style MS batteries with LG cells. Should provide a better fit/higher capacity and look cool IMO. Actually if I already had the Huck battery I think I'd just get an extension cable that had a good fit to your light and just tape it up securely to the threaded connector from the battery.

https://www.action-led-lights.com/collections/batteries/products/magicshine-mj-6096-5200mah-4-cell-battery

https://www.action-led-lights.com/collections/batteries/products/magicshine-mj-6102-7800mah-6-cell-battery








Mole


----------



## benlorenzo (May 14, 2006)

Hey ledoman and everyone else

Nice job on the details for this stuff in the thread. I began researching batteries and like you all found it hit or miss with manufacturer quality.

I read the review on the kaidomain stuff, again thanks for the details!

Wondering if you all have had any experience with Vicmax stuff?

The ads on amazon claim to use Samsung batteries and the prices seem decent... I really just need a pack as my light seems to work good enough.

https://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-4x22...ie=UTF8&qid=1510942415&sr=1-1&keywords=vicmax

https://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Head...ie=UTF8&qid=1510942415&sr=1-3&keywords=vicmax

https://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-4x22...ie=UTF8&qid=1510942415&sr=1-5&keywords=vicmax

Whaddya think?
Thanks in advance
Benny


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

benlorenzo said:


> ...The ads on amazon claim to use Samsung batteries and the prices seem decent... I really just need a pack as my light seems to work good enough.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-4x22...ie=UTF8&qid=1510942415&sr=1-1&keywords=vicmax
> 
> ...


As far as the lamps go the Vicmax stuff is likely overrating their lumen output. This is not to say that the first one with 6 LED's is not going to be bright. Not a bad price for a complete setup.

Since the batteries are advertised as being Samsung they should be decent as long as they are actual Samsung. The down side is that the cells are only 2200mAh which means the packs are only going to have a 4400mAh capacity. That might be good enough for the smaller lamps but for the 6-up they should of offered either a 6-cell pack or a 4-cell with cells at least in the 3000mAh range.


----------



## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

benlorenzo said:


> Hey ledoman and everyone else
> 
> Nice job on the details for this stuff in the thread. I began researching batteries and like you all found it hit or miss with manufacturer quality.
> 
> ...


The light head look cool and the guys here might be interested in modding that.

However, lots of inaccuracies in the ad. Lumens are probably 1/2 of stated. Battery capacity says 5200 mah then says uses 4 2200 mah Sansung, use time 8 hours (doesn't say at what lever).

Be weary.

I'll let the others here w/ better understanding of engineering explain the details.

MB


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

benlorenzo said:


> ... I really just need a pack as my light seems to work good enough.
> 
> Whaddya think?
> Thanks in advance
> Benny


If you just need a battery pack, then consider a pack from Hunk_Lee on eBay from his US Warehouse. I couldn't find a "6800mAh" pack with Panny NCR18650B cells listing US, but here is a 6200mAh one with NCR19650 3100mAh cells.

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Since A11 light set is only $16.90 you can't loose if there are really Samsung cells in the pack. For the money I would take the risk. Part of description and pictures goes together showing 2600mAh cells thus making 5200mAh pack. Even if the cells are 2200mAh and really Samsung it is worth the price. The light could be just bonus to it.

If you choose to buy one it would be nice to report it back. Shurely I would open the pack out of curiousity and to be shure what is inside. Very likel it is glued and can be opened with some pressure in the vice. Of course if you have hobby charger or some other equipment you might just measure the capacity.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

ledoman said:


> Since set A11 light set is only $16.90 you can't loose if there are really Samsung cells in the pack. For the money I would take a risk. Part of description and pictures goes together showing 2600mAh cells thus making 5200mAh pack. Even if the cells are 2200mAh and really Samsung it is worth the price. The light could be just bonus to it.


Ah, good catch. I saw the light, thought it looked ugly, and moved on. Did't even dawn on me to see the price and spec of "4 Samsung Cells".

Even Hunk_lee is $23.30 for a 4x2200mAh Samsung pack.

2600mAh Samsung cells are pretty cheap with 2200mAh cells nearly the same cost (checking 4x @ FastTech) .

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Samsung 2600mAh are one of the best budget cells out there. Good enough for up to 3A, thus making 6A per 2S2P pack which is good enough for most lights. Capacity is good for all 1 or 2 led lights even for 3 led light if not driven to hard.

I'm mostly using those Samsung cells to repair/renew old packs. Now I have in the order quite new LG M26 (2600mAh, mid current up to 10A). Couldn't find any reviewyet so I'll do some tests myself. But it going to last about month or more to order arrives.


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## benlorenzo (May 14, 2006)

Thanks fellas, i'll go ahead grab that A11 set and report back later on.


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## benlorenzo (May 14, 2006)

BTW: i'm replacing a Cycle Beam Blinkrim-900 that i've had for a few years.
The Pack charger "looks" like it charges in about 10 minutes (goes green) and the light goes out in about 10 minutes too, but, flashes back on a couple minutes later to give me a few more minutes. This goes on about 5 times I ran this light on my other other pack and it worked fine... i've been lucky with the other light, dunno the brand, it's cheap chino light with 3 leds in a round housing with a 4 cell pack. its OK if I dont run it on high. I'll prolly use this new pack in it and run the A11 on the old pack... 

I have not graduated to a hobby charger yet, but saw a pretty cool spot welder online recently (when I thought I was gonna build a pack). YEAH RIGHT! lol


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

PS. If you find A11 ugly you might try the luck with A12 set. 
https://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Head...ie=UTF8&qid=1510952138&sr=1-4&keywords=vicmax


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## benlorenzo (May 14, 2006)

*Vicmax 5200 mAh 4 cell 8.4v battery pack*

Rode with the Vicmax battery pack and a 3 LED light for 1 hour and 43 minutes on a mix of low med and high settings (based on the trail) with no issues at all. I would have looked inside to see the actual battery but the unit is sealed fairly well.

The strap is a bit awkward, but got it sorted. The wire is 22AWG.

BTW went with the A12 light, which is a [900] lumens spot and worked pretty good on the helmet.

If this link does not work then ill go back and check the instructions for posting pics.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Very interesting. I'd be tempted to buy one and discharge test the pack. Does the pack seem waterproof? 

-Garry


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## benlorenzo (May 14, 2006)

garrybunk said:


> Very interesting. I'd be tempted to buy one and discharge test the pack. Does the pack seem waterproof?
> 
> -Garry


yes. the pack is supposed to be waterproof


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## benlorenzo (May 14, 2006)

benlorenzo said:


> Rode with the Vicmax battery pack and a 3 LED light for 1 hour and 43 minutes on a mix of low med and high settings (based on the trail) with no issues at all. I would have looked inside to see the actual battery but the unit is sealed fairly well.
> 
> The strap is a bit awkward, but got it sorted. The wire is 22AWG.
> 
> ...


BTW the 3 light LED is my older light... i basically needed a new battery for it and the Vicmax seemed reasonable... i'll post any relevant updates this season.


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## Mr. Doom (Sep 23, 2005)

ledoman said:


> PS. If you find A11 ugly you might try the luck with A12 set.
> https://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Head...ie=UTF8&qid=1510952138&sr=1-4&keywords=vicmax


Looks like I orded the last one. There are 16 of the football shaped lights are still up on amazon if you are willing to gamble on the "Samsung" cells. 
I will have a Yinding/solarstorm X2/$10 BT40 clone to choose from. YInding is the winner so far but it gets hot.:madmax:


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Anybody know where I can get a 26650 4 cell pack w/ quality cells like Panasonic or Sanyo cells. Just sent msg to Hunk Lee but thought one of you might know. I repaired my BT70 but nothing can handle the power on the boost mode. It seems to just either turn off or go red pretty quick. I think this light needs big bad a** cells to work properly as it's probably just too much drain too fast on 18650's.

Thx


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Could look at a pack made of LiPoly RC batteries. They are designed for high current draw application.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

mb323323, what pack are you using now? Do you know what brand cells you have, what AWG wires and length on both sides. I assume you are using standard MS style connector.

20AWG wires are minimum for such power and MS connector is not apropriate. Some XT60 or similar connector would be much better. Of course it's not so convinient for rest of lights you might have and you would need to make some short adapter for them. RC Li-Pos are often using XT60 connectors.

Next thing is battery pack itself. Protection circuit has to stand high current and has low resistance which adds to voltage drop. Cells used has to have lower internal resistance or higher discharge curve. Panasonic NCR18650B (3400mAh) are not the best in that regard. 

You might know all above. I'm just listing all things that affects performance. You also might think ofusing 21700 size of cells rather than 26650 wich have better size/capacity ratio.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

How about putting six decent 18650 cells in a cheap battery box with a nine amp protection circuit like this one?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-6-x-18650-Water-Resistant-Battery-Pack-Case-House-Cover-For-Bike-Bicycle-Lamp/32829173307.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000014.19.5a5cd40aIUQUis&traffic_analysisId=recommend_3035_null_null_null&scm=1007.13338.80878.000000000000000&pvid=f4eab21f-74d9-492f-8614-8e18e4b7f2e8&tpp=1http://

Probably need to get rid of the usb cable and upgrade the power cable. It can be siliconed after testing to make it waterproof.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Interesting box, but I suspect it has the same faulty protection circuit issues as the 4 cell SolarStorm box. Also, there are too many points of resistance for it to maintain the voltage levels needed. You'd have to heavily mod the box (if you can even get to the lower springs) to use it for high current draw lights. In the long run you'd just be better off with a quality pack built with high discharge cells and thick cabling. 

How many amps does the BT70 pull from a pack? My DIY 6-cell pack with hunk_lee protection circuit and 20AWG lead will push at least 4amps fine. 

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I don't think it's good idea using that 6cell box. Based on experience we had with 4 cell ones you can expect bad performance and parasitic drain. Of course someone should test it and see what circuit is using.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

mb323323 said:


> Anybody know where I can get a 26650 4 cell pack w/ quality cells like Panasonic or Sanyo cells. Just sent msg to Hunk Lee but thought one of you might know. I repaired my BT70 but nothing can handle the power on the boost mode. It seems to just either turn off or go red pretty quick. I think this light needs big bad a** cells to work properly as it's probably just too much drain too fast on 18650's.
> 
> Thx


Any lamp pulling a lot of amps is going to eat battery power. Four cell 26650 packs are somewhat rare but easy to find a good 6-cell 18650 pack which will basically weigh about the same and take up the same amount of space. There are quality 5000mAh 26650 cells that can be found but I doubt that Hunk Lee has them. Since the newer 20700 or 21700 cells are yet to be found easily in pre-built bike batteries if it were me I'd go with a 6-cell 18650 pack built with Panasonic NCR18650GA's ( 10500 mAh )


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

LG INR18650 MJ1 and Samsung INR18650-35E 3500mAh are about the same or even bit better than Panasonic NCR18650GA if you stay with 18650 size. All can stand 10A current, though. Depends which can you get at reasonable price. But as said it's not all about cells used.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Yes standard MS connectors. DiNotte batteries. The BT70 connects to a DiNotte connector pretty well and seems water tight as well.

I may just wait for 20700/21700 packs to come out. Not sure why Sanyo, etc don't make 26650 cells/packs. Hunk Lee does have a 26650 4 cell but just not sure if it's strong enough to handle the current. Possibly one of the better 6 cell 18650 might be able to do it. Gonna wait a bit. Was just chomping at the bit to use this light. It is bright neutral white and has a good spill. I'm sure there are better lights but since I have this one..........

Thx


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

26650 can tipicaly handle more current and have higher voltage curve. But in general they have less capacity per weight/size. So you might gain more with 6 cells I've mentioned above. 21700 size would be probably the best, but yes harder to get. Samsung INR21700-48G looks most prommising, atm.

Don't know which 26650 cells Hunk Lee can provide.


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## KevinB2 (Jan 30, 2010)

Wondering if anyone has up to date advice for buying battery packs and getting them shipped successfully to Canada. A bought a few of the Kaidomain packs last year based on feedback in the forum here and they've seemed fine. Looking to buy their 8-cell version (this one: http://www.kaidomain.com/p/S024616....uality-Rechargeable-18650-Li-ion-Battery-Pack). They shipp okay but I don't know if anything has changed in the past year. I've sent them an email to ask if they can still successfully ship to Canada but I thought I'd ask here too and see what people's recent experience has been. Or, is using Hunk_Lee via his US Ebay site a better way to go (ouch....shipping looks pricey!), and if so what would you recommend to run a Niterider BT40s, given that I'd like something that will give me more run time than the 4-cell KD pack? Thanks.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

The standby current on this one is rated at ten microamps and there are no lower springs, just jumper bars. I know nothing about the four cell one, just ran across this one while I was looking for parts to build a 3S2P pack.

I don't know of any battery packs that use 30Q or VCT6 cells, everything I've seen uses cheaper cells. Kaidomain sells a two cell 18650GA pack, good cells but the voltage sags more during discharge than the 30Q or VTC6's.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

My experience with battery holders is that unless there are springs on both ends, they will lose the connection momentarily on hard hits. Depending on your light that may only cause it to flash or change modes. Some lights will just turn off. Not good usually. If the unit is mounted horizontally like under the top tube it helps a lot. I like my battery attached to the seat post. They don't work well there IME.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

arc said:


> The standby current on this one is rated at ten microamps and there are no lower springs, just jumper bars. I know nothing about the four cell one, just ran across this one while I was looking for parts to build a 3S2P pack.
> 
> I don't know of any battery packs that use 30Q or VCT6 cells, everything I've seen uses cheaper cells. Kaidomain sells a two cell 18650GA pack, good cells but the voltage sags more during discharge than the 30Q or VTC6's.


See post #2 about battery packs. It might not be all up to date. Anway read the thread http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...tant-4-x-18650-battery-case-bicyc-943638.html

No pack needs to run 30Q or VTC6's. Those are high current with bit low capacity. Cells I've mentioned above are in between. High capacity and good enough current (10A).

Edit: Corrected wrong link above.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

KevinB2 said:


> Wondering if anyone has up to date advice for buying battery packs and getting them shipped successfully to Canada. A bought a few of the Kaidomain packs last year based on feedback in the forum here and they've seemed fine. Looking to buy their 8-cell version (this one: http://www.kaidomain.com/p/S024616....uality-Rechargeable-18650-Li-ion-Battery-Pack). They shipp okay but I don't know if anything has changed in the past year. I've sent them an email to ask if they can still successfully ship to Canada but I thought I'd ask here too and see what people's recent experience has been. Or, is using Hunk_Lee via his US Ebay site a better way to go (ouch....shipping looks pricey!), and if so what would you recommend to run a Niterider BT40s, given that I'd like something that will give me more run time than the 4-cell KD pack? Thanks.


Sorry, I can't speak for shipping to Canada, but I think I've read that #1) Canadians have a hard time getting cells and/or packs shipped, and #2) with reasonable shipping rates. KD has had a really tough time getting packs shipped, I'd try to stay away from them. I think Hunk_Lee via US warehouse or China might be your best bet.

More runtime with a BT40S on a 4 cell Panasonic pack (6,800mAh)? That pack (in good newer condition should give you about 3.8 hours or more runtime - you need more?

-Garry


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

I'm going to echo everything Garry just told you ( above ). If you're using a BT40S, those lamps tend to be very frugal when it comes to battery power. I see no reason why a decent 4-cell with high capacity Panasonic or Samsung cells ( >6000mAh ) wouldn't be more than enough to meet your needs. Of course if you need more you could always go to a six cell or ( as I do ) on longer rides carry a back-up 2-cell along.

Since I'm on the subject I thought I'd throw this out as a possible alternative to buying pre-made battery packs on-line; check out your local battery store. Some of these stores can build battery packs and yes many already have typical 18650 cells in stock. When I get a chance I'm going to mosey on down to the local _"Batteries + Bulbs"_ store and see if they can do a custom build. I'd do it myself but I don't have a spot welder and spot welders are quite expensive. If they can spot weld the connections then I'll supply my own set of flat-top 20700 Li-ion cells along with my choice of connector and let them do the build. It will cost more that way but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet when you want something custom.

BTW that 6-cell holder looks interesting. While I have no idea how well it might work if you already have the cells I figure the box is cheap enough to roll the dice on. Worst case scenario is that you might only be able to use if carrying on your person ( inside a H-backpack ) but it might work. I might try one of these myself just for the heck of it. Downside is that I'd have to remove the cells after every ride but what the heck. I can deal with that.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Just spotted this 2 x 26650 battery case:



















Could be interesting.

-Garry


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Hey Cat

I have a "batteries+blubs" store near me. Let us know if they'd be willing to do the soldering, etc to put a 20700 pack together. I can have them build that 4 cell pack that would probably be better for the BT70. 

Thx


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

garrybunk said:


> Just spotted this 2 x 26650 battery case:
> 
> -Garry


Would be interesting to see if there is realy 80uA parasitic drain. Still this would drain 4500mAh cells in a 115 days or aprox. 4 months.

Someone in the US should order this and do some tests. Shipping is much faster. Lateley I'm waiting for things from Ali for 2 months.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Maybe I'll place an order soon and check into it. I've never actually ordered from Ali before.

EDIT - It's on eBay too.

-Garry


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## KevinB2 (Jan 30, 2010)

garrybunk said:


> Sorry, I can't speak for shipping to Canada, but I think I've read that #1) Canadians have a hard time getting cells and/or packs shipped, and #2) with reasonable shipping rates. KD has had a really tough time getting packs shipped, I'd try to stay away from them. I think Hunk_Lee via US warehouse or China might be your best bet.
> 
> More runtime with a BT40S on a 4 cell Panasonic pack (6,800mAh)? That pack (in good newer condition should give you about 3.8 hours or more runtime - you need more?
> 
> -Garry


thanks Garry, KD is now telling me they can ship to Canada with DHL which is what I think was used the last time I bought battery packs from them. So we'll see!

I have two of the BT40s lamp heads and have been running them off of the 4 cell version of the KD pack I linked to above. My night rides don't tend to be much longer than 2 hours or so, but even when I am careful and use mostly the medium brightness setting, saving the maximum setting for higher speed areas, by the time I finish the indicator LED is usually showing the amber colour. Which I assume means the pack is getting pretty low...maybe the indicator colour changes are conservative and I still have lots of run time left? I admit I haven't tried running them right to dead so maybe that is the case. I would like to be able to run the light on maximum and not worry about run time, hence my idea to pick up an 8 cell pack.

Looked at hunk lee but shipping from their US warehouse to canada is pretty pricey. I'm going to be ordering a couple more of the KD2 light heads for spares/loaners anyway and was hoping to be able to combine everything into one order. I know these light heads are falling out of favour a bit but they are cheap, pretty bright, and have a nice neutral white tint.


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## KevinB2 (Jan 30, 2010)

Oh and I do tend to night ride in cold weather, but usually not much below -15 or 20 Celsius. Maybe that is cold enough to reduce their run time?


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## KevinB2 (Jan 30, 2010)

Cat-man-do said:


> I'm going to echo everything Garry just told you ( above ). If you're using a BT40S, those lamps tend to be very frugal when it comes to battery power. I see no reason why a decent 4-cell with high capacity Panasonic or Samsung cells ( >6000mAh ) wouldn't be more than enough to meet your needs. Of course if you need more you could always go to a six cell or ( as I do ) on longer rides carry a back-up 2-cell along.
> 
> Since I'm on the subject I thought I'd throw this out as a possible alternative to buying pre-made battery packs on-line; check out your local battery store. Some of these stores can build battery packs and yes many already have typical 18650 cells in stock. When I get a chance I'm going to mosey on down to the local _"Batteries + Bulbs"_ store and see if they can do a custom build. I'd do it myself but I don't have a spot welder and spot welders are quite expensive. If they can spot weld the connections then I'll supply my own set of flat-top 20700 Li-ion cells along with my choice of connector and let them do the build. It will cost more that way but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet when you want something custom.
> 
> BTW that 6-cell holder looks interesting. While I have no idea how well it might work if you already have the cells I figure the box is cheap enough to roll the dice on. Worst case scenario is that you might only be able to use if carrying on your person ( inside a H-backpack ) but it might work. I might try one of these myself just for the heck of it. Downside is that I'd have to remove the cells after every ride but what the heck. I can deal with that.


 Thanks Cat,

I don't think I have a specialty battery store nearby, but I'llsearch the yellow pages and see.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

KevinB2,
Ok, so you are running two light heads from one pack via a Y-cable? That explains things somewhat. The battery indicator is simply voltage driven (i.e. at certain voltage levels the colors change) which means they may not be very accurate. It does drop to red after amber:










The cold weather will definitely affect the pack and cause even more voltage drop. I think you should do a runtime test at home, setting them up exactly how you would for a ride and time how long they last (maybe even how long it takes for the battery level indicator to change colors. You might run both lights on high (not Turbo) and see what you get until shutdown. Check that the light heads are not getting extremely hot; if they are perhaps you could place a small fan to blow across them during testing. TIP - if you can, record video of the test with a clock and the back of the lights in view and that way you don't have to keep watching them yourself. You could even do it during dark and have them aimed at a wall or something so you could maybe judge light output.

-Garry


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## KevinB2 (Jan 30, 2010)

garrybunk said:


> KevinB2,
> Ok, so you are running two light heads from one pack via a Y-cable? That explains things somewhat. The battery indicator is simply voltage driven (i.e. at certain voltage levels the colors change) which means they may not be very accurate. It does drop to red after amber:
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Garry, sorry I wasn't very clear, I am only running one light head at a time. I just meant to say that both light heads I have (there's two riders in the household) seem to draw down either of the 4 cell batteries in a similar time.

I will do as you suggest and try a full run-down test. I'll see if my camera will do a multi-hour video - that's a great idea!

cheers
Kevin


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

ledoman said:


> See post #2 about battery packs. It might not be all up to date. Anway read the thread http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...tant-4-x-18650-battery-case-bicyc-943638.html
> 
> No pack needs to run 30Q or VTC6's. Those are high current with bit low capacity. Cells I've mentioned above are in between. High capacity and good enough current (10A).
> 
> Edit: Corrected wrong link above.


Both the four and six cell battery packs have the exact same specification stickers on the bottom. So unless the four cell ones had a bad batch of control boards in them the six cell is bad as well.

They also have the same power cables, the switch and indicator lights look the same as well. Those things look the same on the 26650 case Gary found as well.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes, their circuits might be the same or at least very similar internaly. The difference to the 26650 case is parasitic drain declared to 80uA while with 18650 cases there is 10uA. Of course in reality it might be completly different.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

KevinB2 said:


> Oh and I do tend to night ride in cold weather, but usually not much below -15 or 20 Celsius. Maybe that is cold enough to reduce their run time?


 ( -20C = 4°F )

That is some kind of cold! I've seen batteries that start to act funny just as you get under 40°F. Can't really say I've ridden at night in the kind of temperatures that you do. I wouldn't even want to think about changing a flat in that kind of cold. In that kind of cold it's possible the wheel skewers could freeze to the frame if they got wet enough. What a ***** that would be.

I wouldn't worry too much about the voltage indicators on your lamp. Some lamps will go almost another hour as soon as it goes red. All depends on the battery/capacity ( type of cell ), riding temperature and how much power you are using. I know Ledoman said you don't need to use the INR18650 30Q Samsung's but considering you like to ride in the cold, an INR series cell might fair better in colder temps. I'm assuming that with a 20A max discharge current that the internal resistance of the INR type cell is going to be lower than a typical NCR Panasonic type ( although I've not checked the specs.) That might help lessen the internal voltage drop when the internal resistance begins to rise when things get real cold. I don't own any of those type of cells so I'm only going to say, "maybe they might be better". Panasonic over the years has done a lot to create "hybrid" cells that not only perform well at high amps yet still able to carry more capacity. I suppose it's possible that if there is a difference in cold weather performance, it might not be that significant.

Anyway, if you ride in really cold weather than yes, you either need a battery with more capacity or a way to keep the battery you are using warm. Big time tip: Don't try to recharge your battery until the battery has completely returned to normal room temp. Recharging a frozen Li-ion battery will damage the battery.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

"The performance of all batteries drops drastically at low temperatures; however, the elevated internal resistance will cause some warming effect because of efficiency loss during use." - taken from: BU-502: Discharging at High and Low Temperatures - Battery University

Now where is good balance between all parameters? Hard to tell. We should do more research and readings to answer this.

The best we can do is keep them warm if we can. Flat battery packs like KD one are very handy for that purpose. Another solution for such situation is simply to have spares near warm body and change them when needed. I'm shure most of people doesn't ride in cold so often and so long. 2cell spare should solve most of that situations.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

ledoman said:


> "The performance of all batteries drops drastically at low temperatures; however, the elevated internal resistance will cause some warming effect because of efficiency loss during use." - taken from: BU-502: Discharging at High and Low Temperatures - Battery University
> 
> Now where is good balance between all parameters? Hard to tell. We should do more research and readings to answer this.
> 
> The best we can do is keep them warm if we can. Flat battery packs like KD one are very handy for that purpose. Another solution for such situation is simply to have spares near warm body and change them when needed. I'm shure most of people doesn't ride in cold so often and so long. 2cell spare should solve most of that situations.


This is part of why I went with a silicone overmold pack, combined with the soft neoprene soft shell case for Outbound's battery packs. It not only is waterproof, but also thermally insulating for the colder months.

I haven't done any scientific tests yet, but I can easily take apart a spare battery pack so that it's bare and compare the run time vs an insulated pack. Just need to get myself a load simulator so that the load is exactly the same on both packs.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

Every time I buy a newer model Makita battery pack I notice better cold temperature performance. It could be larger capacity, different chemistry or just lower internal resistance.

I think the answer is newer better cells but its hard to find the data to prove it. These graphs were screenshots from datasheets.

PANASONIC-NCR18650B-3400








This graph is a bit confusing, but the upper -20C line doesn't look that bad.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Looking at the -20C curve I think many lights or protection circuits are going to cut off due to the battery dropping to <3V at he beginning of discharge.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

The Panasonic is probably being tested at 2.5A versus 10A for the Sony. One Panasonic datasheet for a 2800 cell showed dismal cold weather performance.

Most people are likely riding in snow at that temperature and moving slower. Probably have their lights on low, probably running at less than an amp per cell.

There is the rest of the system to consider as well. Is the protection board in the battery pack working properly? Do the capacitors in the light function properly at -20C?

I have my bar light worked out for winter. Wiz20 is self contained, so the driver and LED's heat the cells a bit. A helmet light would be nice. The more looking around I do the better something like a Rofis MR70 26650 flashlight looks. No protection board creating losses and the XHP70.2 is as efficient as it gets. It can be dedomed if need be. Put a 4800 mA/H 21700 cell in there if it fits to keep the weight down. Just need to find a way to mount it to a snowboard helmet.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

arc said:


> PANASONIC-NCR18650B-3400
> View attachment 1177537


-20°C line clearly shows what was written about internal resistance and heating up. Lower temperatures raises internal resistance which has impact on heating up cells and voltage at beginning raises up a bit. So all in all the part of energy is transformed into heat, the rest is delivered. This is the reason for lower capacity we get out of them.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I've ordered that 2x26650 case from Ebay to check it out. Will report back.

-Garry


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

arc said:


> Every time I buy a newer model Makita battery pack I notice better cold temperature performance. It could be larger capacity, different chemistry or just lower internal resistance.
> 
> I think the answer is newer better cells but its hard to find the data to prove it. These graphs were screenshots from datasheets.
> 
> ...


The graphs you supplied were very enlightening. Looking at the graph for the Pansonic; Ledoman was right. In really cold temps it is quite apparent that the increase in internal resistance causes the cell to heat up a bit. This helps at the start and raises the voltage back up for a while but eventually the voltage drops again and in extreme temps ( -20C or 4°F ) the perceived capacity is only in the 2200mah range. Of course the chart readings are based on lab standards. In the real world you wouldn't start a ride with a battery already at 20°C so likely you would get another 500mAh. Still, I couldn't help but notice that once the Panasonic's are exposed to temperatures past 0°C there is a noticeable drop in perceived capacity. Food for thought.

As to the chart showing the cold temp. characteristics of the Sony vtc6; Very interesting. Clearly the Sony is showing better cold weather performance vs. the Panasonic. In extreme cold the Sony might have problems powering a real load "IF", the battery was to "cold start". However like I said before, in real world application most of us are smart enough not to expose the battery to cold until you actually start to use the lights. This would help the Sony avoid any cold start / cut off problems. And, along the same lines, if you look at the lower part of the chart ( took me a while to figure out that one ), it seems to indicate _how much the internal temp. of the cell is heated _( @10A ) under different ambient outside exposure temps. Seems the internal temperature of the Sony vtc6 heats up right well and this no doubt helps give it seemingly longer perceived capacity when operating in extreme cold. If you were to routinely do cold weather rides in the -6°C range I think using the Sony's might be to your advantage. Sadly though, the Sony vtc6 seems to lose ~500mAh after only 100 cycles. Not sure how this compares to others so it might be worth looking into before you decide to buy.

Anyway if you're like me and rarely ride below 40°F you should be fine with the typical Panasonic NCR type cells ( although at 40°F you will lose a small amount of capacity / run-time. Of course the better your battery is shielded from the cold the better it will perform.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> Anyway if you're like me and rarely ride below 40°F you should be fine with the typical Panasonic NCR type cells ( although at 40°F you will lose a small amount of capacity / run-time. Of course the better your battery is shielded from the cold the better it will perform.


The graphs were made at currents quite a bit higher than a cell in a 2S2P would see, I guess some real world testing is needed.

I quite often ride below 0°F, less walkers at night and the wind usually dies down. Riding on snow has its challenges, but it's a different ride experience and I always miss it after the spring melt.


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## juhake (Oct 26, 2007)

Rockbros battery packs at Banggood, I have no idea about quality...

5200mAh

https://www.banggood.com/ROCKBROS-5...-p-1239004.html?rmmds=search&cur_warehouse=CN

10400mAh

https://www.banggood.com/ROCKBROS-1...-p-1239046.html?rmmds=search&cur_warehouse=CN


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

For the start they don't know how to calculate capacity of the pack. They are half of declared at best or they are just declaring capacity sum of all cells used. I'm asuming they use 2600mAh cells, but which brand if any. Quite suspicious.

Can be found cheaper at:
https://www.fasttech.com/products/9624010
if they can ship to your country. FT doesn't ship batteries to all countries even in EU.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> For the start they don't know how to calculate capacity of the pack. They are half of declared at best or they are just declaring capacity sum of all cells used. I'm asuming they use 2600mAh cells, but which brand if any. Quite suspicious.
> 
> Can be found cheaper at:
> https://www.fasttech.com/products/9624010
> if they can ship to your country. FT doesn't ship batteries to all countries even in EU.


For a minute I thought maybe they were using 20700 cells rockon: ) but sadly I think you're right. Someone just added up the 2600mAh cells wrong for the 2P/2S configuration. Typical error for some of the Chinese web sites. Regardless one of these should make for a decent battery if indeed they use a brand name cell. No mention of what brand name is used for the cells.

On second look Fasttech is making the same claim selling the same battery ( check this link ) Once again ( 10400mAh ). That being the case I don't think I'd buy one of these until I check with their customer service to get the low-down on what brand cells are being used, their capacity, total output voltage of the battery and then the configuration of the cells. Otherwise I've never had a problem with Banggood or Fasttech but then again I've never ordered a battery pack from any of them before.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Interesting, though I'm sure they're mediocre at best. I wonder if Banggood would send me one or the other to review. I'll ask.

-Garry


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

garrybunk said:


> Interesting, though I'm sure they're mediocre at best. I wonder if Banggood would send me one or the other to review. I'll ask.-Garry


USB charging, would be pretty handy to charge them up in my car during the day.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I would not depend on USB charging. Sounds more like they have 2 versions of their packs. Otherwise no way the pack will fully charge. 8.4v in and out with USB charging on the same plug. That USB plug would need a boost circuit to make it possible. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

No problem in charging from USB to 1S or 2S (8.4V) if you use correct module like this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/TP5...A-rechargeable-lithium-plate/32615889901.html

I've got one, but not tested yet. Keep in mind USB has different standars. Lately QC is becoming popular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge 
Not shure if module above can adopt QC, but voltage out of USB chargers is no more only 5V.


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

RAKC Ind said:


> I would not depend on USB charging. Sounds more like they have 2 versions of their packs. Otherwise no way the pack will fully charge. 8.4v in and out with USB charging on the same plug. That USB plug would need a boost circuit to make it possible.


I'm assuming that the module charges each cell independently... 4.2V.

edit: Oops, I see ledoman even knows which module to use.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

QC I can guaranty wont function in this case. The electronics that make use of that tech have special components and controller inside the electronic as well as in the charger. QC chargers are about 3X the size of a standard USB controller as well.

Its basically a smart charger that requires data feedback from the electronic as well to function.

A QC charger can be used with any USB charging device but if the device is not designed for QC, the charger will output the base charge voltage and current.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Looking (more than reading) TP5100 Datasheet leaves me unceartin if it really works as boost/buck ie. if 5V input can charge 2S cells. Since I have that module I need to check it out.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

RAKC Ind said:


> I would not depend on USB charging. Sounds more like they have 2 versions of their packs. Otherwise no way the pack will fully charge. 8.4v in and out with USB charging on the same plug. That USB plug would need a boost circuit to make it possible.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I was thinking that one of those packs might be a 6-cell but the product description doesn't say anything about the cell configuration.

I don't know why anyone would want to try to charge a bike battery from USB power source unless of course you run something like a lamp that runs off a 4.2 volt battery that doesn't use more that two cells in parallel. If you want to charge your 8.4 volt battery in your car just buy a small AC power inverter that plugs into your cigarette lighter port. One of those will power a standard 8.4 volt ( AC to DC ) charger no problem at all.

Of course one must be aware that not all vehicles have their C-lighter port directly wired to the battery. With some vehicles you must have the engine running in order to use the C-lighter port.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

To bad, I've been wrong with this TP5100 module. Was bit misleaded with "wide" voltage range. Reading again it says its buck device, no boost. Tested it now and 5V can only charge single 4.2V cell while 9-12V+ can charge 2S (8.4V). So no meal from standard USB voltage for this module. Still can be used from 12V cigarete lighter port. Well, I've tried ......


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

garrybunk said:


> Interesting, though I'm sure they're mediocre at best. I wonder if Banggood would send me one or the other to review. I'll ask.
> 
> -Garry


Banggood is sending me the "10,400mAh" battery pack for review.

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Good. You should do also teardown in order to recognize cells used (if brandname). Checking if they are balanced would be helpful too. I'm pretty shure you'll get about 5000mAh @2A out of it, at best.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

garrybunk said:


> Banggood is sending me the "10,400mAh" battery pack for review.
> 
> -Garry


Oh goody! I'm hoping it really is a "real" 10400mAh pack, perhaps a 6-cell. 
Plus we get to see how well Banggood is at getting batteries shipped to the U.S.

Anyway lets hope the cells aren't cheap recycled cells. I like the look of the outside plastic shell. If these pan out I might buy one to use with my XP3. Did you ask any questions from Banggood before asking to review one? Just wondering what you already know.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

I just took a look at the photos and if you look at the 10400 photo on the bike, it sure does look like a 4 cell. The ad also says 18650. Possibly they are mistaken and the person who writes the ads just doesn't understand what they wrote. Maybe it's 20700 cells! Or maybe it's really a 5200mah 18650 battery. And the other is a 2 cell based on the photos. 2600 mah my guess. Or the photos were just old photos used of another product. It's really hard to say for sure w/ this type of seller but I'd wager you get a 4 cell 5200 mah battery. The case is nice tho.

Ok, still holding hope that someone comes up w/ a 4 cell 20700 pack at 9000 mah that can handle a high/fast drain. "Hope is a good thing".


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Cat, 
No, I did not ask any questions. I'm 99.99% certain it should have been spec'd at 5,200mAh and someone doesn't understand how to do the math with cells in series. And no I don't expect it to test that high either. Another issue would be how consistent would these packs be? Maybe I test an "ok" one, but the next one someone tries is much worse. 

-Garry


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

EnerPower by Enerdan producy battery packs which are assembled in germany. 
Bike Light Batteries - ENERprof


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

garrybunk said:


> Cat,
> No, I did not ask any questions. I'm 99.99% certain it should have been spec'd at 5,200mAh and someone doesn't understand how to do the math with cells in series. And no I don't expect it to test that high either. Another issue would be how consistent would these packs be? Maybe I test an "ok" one, but the next one someone tries is much worse.
> 
> -Garry


Yep, I'm going to have to agree. I went back to look at the ad I see I failed to notice that measurements are given of the case. The one you will be getting is only big enough for a 4-cell. I think the best we can hope for is that they use good 2600mAh cells.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

garrybunk said:


> Banggood is sending me the "10,400mAh" battery pack for review.
> 
> -Garry


Battery pack with charger just arrived at my desk. Shipping label clearly says "Bicycle Power Pack" (but not lithium ion). No shipping issues and item received in a timely matter - standard China Post ePacket shipping. Pack arrived @ 7.77v.

Some quick pics:














































I'll start a separate review thread when I'm ready.

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Will include it at the top of this thread. Please check the charger voltage unloaded. Voltage of the pack came nicely, though.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

ledoman said:


> Please check the charger voltage unloaded.


Well since you asked, 8.47v. (Note: these voltage measurements are with a cheap budget meter I happen to have in my desk at work. They may be off a few hundredths of a volt. Will re-measure with a quality meter later.)

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

That's pretty much good and acceptable.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Holy cow! This battery pack is holding over 4amps steady on my modded BT40S (4 amp driver, 4x Nichia 219C's)! Started out at 4.33A and over the course of 60 seconds was still at 4.15A! (I have video.) This shocked me. I've not done any capacity testing yet; I want to discharge it nearly fully once, re-charge, and then discharge test. 

Oh, and on a better meter the charger outputs 8.40v and the pack arrived at 7.70v. The charger "seems" to follow what appears to be a proper charging algorithm, though it continues with very very low charge current beyond 8.40v when the indicator is green. It charged to 8.43v when charge current read "0.00A". I did only see a max charge current of 1.03A and not the 1.5A it's rated at.

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Looks good. BTW it can't charge to 8.43V if it has output of 8.40V. I think this is just difference on measurments.
I have found some low capacity china cells are quite good on holding voltage when new, they just can't deliver much energy.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Well those were my measurements with the same quality DMM. I let it sit "charging" for a few hours beyond the "green indicator". 

Discharging now and it's holding up quite well. Now I need to find a light with no low voltage protection. 

I also received the 26650 battery case today. Unimpressive in the hand, but we'll see. I can see users putting cells in wrong very easily!

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

At what current are you doing discharge? Probably with your hobby charger, right?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Looking forward to the actual mAh rating.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

ledoman said:


> At what current are you doing discharge? Probably with your hobby charger, right?


Discharging at 1A first, then 3A, then 5A and yes with my hobby charger (which I recently calibrated the voltage on). Beginning 1A discharge now. Figure I'll gather all the tests (it will take awhile as you know) and then post to a new separate thread.

I expect the mAh to be quite respectable as I discharged the light last night with +/- 2.8A load (it varied, especially as the pack reached the bottom end of the discharge) and it took over 2hrs (think it was closer to 2 1/2hrs) until I hit the over-discharge protection of the pack (which BTW is set at 6.10v, a little bit high, but at least safe). Oh, and as we heard people post about, the BT40S didn't take long to show a red battery indicator and ran with that red indicator much of the time and went to flashing red at about 6.60v. Moral of the story, take those indicators with a grain of salt, especially at higher mode levels (which many of us already knew).

-Garry

P.S. A FastTech rep just PM'd me out of the blue (I haven't bought from them in well over a year) over at BLF offering products for me to review. I requested the 2 cell "5200mAh" RockBros battery pack, since their bike light selection stinks. (I am starting to get a bit overwhelmed with so much to review!)


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## GeeKeR (Apr 18, 2015)

Hey Garry, any update on that review of the RockBros pack? What kind of cells do they use? Good quality budget pack?


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I'm done all my testing and trying to find time to post the review. Bottom line is that it's a surprisingly decent pack with good cells (not a name I've ever heard of, but seem to be a real company and the cells test close to the claimed 2,600mAh each). Only real negative I have is that it came with the cell pairs out of balance by 0.05v. I don't see that as a serious problem, but it does mean slightly less capacity is achieved.

-Garry


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## ztbishop (May 11, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> From my last post..^.; I sent an email off to Hunk Lee. He says he's going to look into getting some of the newer 20700 cells and build some bike light packs. Hopefully he'll send me an email when he does. Be ready for some sweet 8000+mAh 4-cell setups and some 4000+mAh 2-cell set-ups. These cells are rated for high discharge so even a two cell might power a lamp like my ITUO XP3.


Hey, I was curious if you have used any of the Hunk Lee battery packs with Ituo XP lights? I see they have some threaded barrel batteries that look like the Ituo connectors, so I was hoping they might be the same thread / pitch and seal up water resistant. My 4 cell Ituo batteries still work fine but I was kicking around the idea of lighter 2-cell packs and just planning ahead if there are any alternatives since Ituo is (more or less) gone. 
Have you seen any other battery packs that would work as well, and are the Hunk Lee ebay batteries pretty safe?

I might pick up a small pack for my 10 year old Dinotte 140R rear light as well, tho I'd have to rig up some type of adapter.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ztbishop said:


> Hey, I was curious if you have used any of the Hunk Lee battery packs with Ituo XP lights? I see they have some threaded barrel batteries that look like the Ituo connectors, so I was hoping they might be the same thread / pitch and seal up water resistant. My 4 cell Ituo batteries still work fine but I was kicking around the idea of lighter 2-cell packs and just planning ahead if there are any alternatives since Ituo is (more or less) gone.
> Have you seen any other battery packs that would work as well, and are the Hunk Lee ebay batteries pretty safe?
> 
> I might pick up a small pack for my 10 year old Dinotte 140R rear light as well, tho I'd have to rig up some type of adapter.


I only have one HL battery ( non-threaded ). Very likely the threaded versions will work with an ITUO lamp. I have an ITUO XP3 but don't think I'd try to use a two cell on it unless it was either built with newer 20700 cells. If you have the XP2 standard 18650 cells should be fine although if used on high probably won't give a lot of run time. Of course no rule saying you can't carry along a back-up. ( I do that sometimes when using two cells )

I made note some time ago that the standard connector ( non-threaded ) Hunk Lee uses is very compatible with the older DiNotte type batteries. Note; If you order from Hunk Lee sometimes there are translation issues. You can specify the length of the battery cable and the type of the connector as well as the cells being used but helps if you can provide a photo of the connectors you want. While I've heard of people not getting the exact connector they wanted I've not heard of anyone yet not getting the battery they ordered.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Added http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...os-4-cell-10-400mah-battery-pack-1070008.html to the list of reviews in post #2.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I've now finally posted the review of the 2-cell RockBros Battery Pack.

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Thanks Garry, will take a loook and add it to the list on the top of this thread.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*New "Rechargeable" Lithuim AA and AAA 1.5 volt batteries*

I saw these on Amazon the other day and since I've never seen these before I thought I'd make mention of them. Supposedly these are 1.5 volts and have their own charging circuit and USB connector built into each cell. The AAA cells have a capacity rating of 400mAh. Although this doesn't sound like much you have to do the watt/hr. conversion to compare these to the LSD NiMh AAA's which are only 1.2 volts. I believe the NiMh's have a slightly higher watt/hr rating but I'm not sure if the listed 1.5 volt rating of the lithium's is the nominal or peak rating. If the peak rating is higher ( say perhaps (1.8 or maybe 3.7 volts ) than the watt/hr rating of the lithium's will be higher. I also see another version of the same rechargeable AAA li-ion cells ( 1.5 volt output ) that require a special external charger. These might actual have more capacity but they do cost more. All good stuff if you use a product that uses AA or AAA cells.

There is also an AA version and a 9volt battery version of the rechargeable lithium's as well. Very interesting. I'm curious as to how well all of these new type of cells will actually work.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Those articles might give you some idea how things might work:
https://lygte-info.dk/info/BatteryDisassembly18650usb UK.html
https://lygte-info.dk/info/BatteryDisassembly9VLiIon UK.html

As Li-Ions have higher voltage than 1.5V there is step-down converter involved which means there are some looses. On the other hand it might maintain (more or less) constant output voltage till the end. It might be 1.5V, but it has to be proved.

It depends what capacity ratings they advertize. Is it before or after step down conversion. It is obvious you can't put much energy into AAA size using quite some place for two circuits and usb connector. I see those type of batteries more as a convinient way to charge since we are using usb everywhere we connect our phones. Though, USB type C is spreading around and you'll have to have bunch of cables with all connector types at your hand.


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

Cat-man-do said:


> All good stuff if you use a product that uses AA or AAA cells.


I don't think so. What namely devices you're planning to use them with?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

-Archie- said:


> I don't think so. What namely devices you're planning to use them with?


I didn't say that I was planning on using them but that I found them interesting. Personally I have a set of wheel lights that use AAA's and a small EDC torch that uses AA's. I already use rechargeable_ Energizer_ ( *Low Self Discharge ) NiMh cells for the wheel lights and a normal AA size Li-ion cell for the AA size torch I have that is designed for the higher voltage Li-ion cell.

The only negatives I see with using these new type of cells is one, like Ledoman said, there is likely to be a small parasitic drain if the cell is using a small step down converter to keep the output voltage in the 1.5 volt range. However it depends on just how they are doing that which will determine if these are junk or not. If they discharge too much while not being used, I for one would certainly not be interested in using them. On the other hand if they hold a decent charge without excessive *LSD happening they could certainly make a viable alternative to using rechargeable NiMh's.

The second negative issue with these that I don't particularly like is that these are being made by Chinese battery makers. Since the Chinese nowadays are making some better batteries this might not be a big issue but I would feel better if another manufacturer such as Panasonic, LG or Samsung were making and selling these. At some point I'll likely buy some just to test out but only because I'm curious.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Those articles might give you some idea how things might work:
> https://lygte-info.dk/info/BatteryDisassembly18650usb UK.html
> https://lygte-info.dk/info/BatteryDisassembly9VLiIon UK.html
> 
> ...


Ledoman, thanks for those links. The LSD issue looks to be in the mirco-amp range but would depend of course on the manufacturer and what type of circuit setup they are using. The guy doing the review was apparently using a different type ( size ) of cell. I really couldn't tell the size but the battery itself that he was working on used a Panasonic cell. Perhaps these were just 18650's designed with the built-in charger. (?) If so there might be a Panasonic version of AA or AAA's somewhere.

On the link to the AAA's I provided it looked as though the seller included a 4-way cable that connected to just one ( computer standard ) USB connector and so able to charge all four batteries at once. Since these types of cells are indeed using a mini circuit board it's very possible that excessive vibration could at some point loosen one of the connections to the board inside the cell and make the cell completely useless. With what I already know about Chinese workmanship I think I can consider that a distinct possibility.

One thing about using mini USB connectors that I wish someone would change is that, "I wish they would color code one side of the connector so the users didn't have to flip the connectors around trying to figure out just how to plug in". It's annoying though that on some of my devices the input portal is reversed so it's a total PITA trying to plug the connector in. Awe heck! I just realized; Even if the connectors were color coded it wouldn't help if the device has the input port reversed....:idea: Now to someone who might think this is not a problem, I beg to differ. I ruined the standard USB input ports on my old computer simple because I kept trying to plug the damn connectors in the wrong way. ( stupid me, what can I say... )


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

Cat-man-do said:


> The only negatives I see with using these new type of cells is one, like Ledoman said, there is likely to be a small parasitic drain if the cell is using a small step down converter to keep the output voltage in the 1.5 volt range.
> -snip-
> The second negative issue with these that I don't particularly like is that these are being made by Chinese battery makers.


Well, apart from self-drain and questionable Chinese quality, one more thing: AA-powered devices typically have "low battery" indicators triggered by voltage drop. In this case howewer, DC/DC converter will provide steady 1.5V output until full discharge and disconnection of battery by embedded protection PCB.

For examples like bike rear light, I'd prefer to see visual decrease of brightness and/or blinking "Battery Low" indicator, instead of sudden shutdown...


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Archie, nice to hear from you after quite some time. Good point, not all systems will benefit from having constant 1.5V nor will have reasonable efficiency. 

There can be ridicolus situation using such cells in a single AA/AAA flashlight. First you loose some energy on step down converter, then you need step up (boost) driver to get high enough voltage for LED Vf. Efficiency is on the low side.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

-Archie- said:


> Well, apart from self-drain and questionable Chinese quality, one more thing: *AA-powered devices typically have "low battery" indicators triggered by voltage drop. In this case howewer, DC/DC converter will provide steady 1.5V output until full discharge and disconnection of battery by embedded protection PCB.*
> 
> For examples like bike rear light, I'd prefer to see visual decrease of brightness and/or blinking "Battery Low" indicator, instead of sudden shutdown...


Yes I suppose that's true to some degree but there aren't many dedicated bike lamps that use these kind of cells that operate with voltage indicators or digital run-time estimators. With most of my torches when the batteries are drained the light just goes out. Only my better 18650 torches will give a low voltage warning. I can think of only a few rear lights that still use AAA or AA cells or perhaps a front lamp like the B&M Ixon IQ which uses AA's. That said if I was using one of the very nice Ixon IQ's I would likely get a brighter output for a longer period of time using these new types of cells. Yes, it would throw off the warning device built into the lamp driver but if you know how long the lamp will run with the different batteries you might prefer the trade off unless you are one of those folk who like to run out the full charge of your batteries while on a ride. Speaking personally, I've ridden with torches and with dedicated bike lights and almost everything I own either has no indicators or does and I never really pay too much attention to them anyway. I just make sure I have some kind of back up if needed if indeed in the rare event I run out of battery power. ( Only my newer Raveman lamps give me a digital read out of estimated run time and just how accurate those are is anyone's guess )


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm not sure if this was discussed, but didn't find through search.

I was looking to see if there was a different battery pack available that might be better than the ones that were reviewed and came across this Trustfire EBO2 branded one on amazon (shipped from CN) but can't find anything about it. As you can see, the external design is a bit different with cutouts for routing straps at every corner, it uses an aluminum capped bolt to close it, and the battery level indicator is on the opposite side from the cord.

The weirder thing is that I went to trustfire's website and came across what has to be the most innovative/stupid battery pack idea: one that goes in your top tube. It looks like it does not interface with the star nut (which would seem to get in the way?), tightening the bolt just works to compress tension rings to hold it in place. Am I missing something?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Desertride said:


> I'm not sure if this was discussed, but didn't find through search.
> 
> I was looking to see if there was a different battery pack available that might be better than the ones that were reviewed and came across this Trustfire EBO2 branded one on amazon (shipped from CN) but can't find anything about it. As you can see, the external design is a bit different with cutouts for routing straps at every corner, it uses an aluminum capped bolt to close it, and the battery level indicator is on the opposite side from the cord...


What draws my attention to this cell holder is that there appears to be some kind of button to the left of the voltage indicators. Yeah, yeah..all fine that it has slots for the Velcro straps and an Aluminum top tightener. More important is the button. If that button is some kind of an on/off switch that would be nice. That means you might be able to store the holder with cells and not have any self discharge. That would be a nice touch if indeed it is a switch that controls the battery discharge circuit.

About the other link; Interesting idea to put a battery inside the head tube.. Not sure though what type of cell is being used and what the total capacity or voltage is. The lamp kit looked like it came with two battery sets ( a normal square 4-cell and the one for the head tube...?? ) but maybe I'm wrong about that.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

So a bit more info on the battery box can be found from the pics on this polish website https://lampkinarower.pl/pakiety-ak...k-na-akumulatory-trustfire-eb02-port-usb.html

According to the diagram on the box, the button switches from 8.4v to 5v USB output. Claimed standby drain is 75 micro amps.

The most significant difference, and the reason I'm going to give it a shot, is that if you look at one of the pics on this aliexpress listing it appears to have springs on both terminal sides, which may help with the problem of disconnecting on bumpy trails.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Desertride said:


> ...The most significant difference, and the reason I'm going to give it a shot, is that if you look at one of the pics on this aliexpress listing it appears to have springs on both terminal sides, which may help with the problem of disconnecting on bumpy trails.


If there are springs on both ends of the cells and they are fairly stiff, It should work pretty well. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts and experiences once you have one.

If it turns out well, I'd likely buy a few and gut out all the USB and other BS and end up with a good battery case.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Vancbiker said:


> If there are springs on both ends of the cells and they are fairly stiff, It should work pretty well. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts and experiences once you have one.
> 
> If it turns out well, I'd likely buy a few and gut out all the USB and other BS and end up with a good battery case.


I might be interested in one of these myself. The switch ( on top ) is there to control the output between USB and normal 2S/2P output (?). That said the USB cord looks like it is connected in parallel with the lamp output cord. ( ? ) That means _possibly_ only one at a time is usable (?). There is no mention if there is any protective circuitry for the normal lamp output operation. If the stand-by current drain is 75 micro-amps I'm guessing the USB circuit is powered full time but access to lamp or USB output is only provided when the switch is in the proper position. (?) I'm assuming this but this might not be true if the one cord going into the top of the box has 4 wires inside the casing and provides two separate circuit output paths . Would be better if you could operate both outputs at the same time but really there is no mention it has that capability....only that the switch can turn USB on or off. ( the big question; is the switch double pole / double throw? )

I wouldn't mind having one as long as the lamp output current can power my XP3. Would be nice to know more about it though before buying. Personally I'd like the option of using both USB and lamp at the same time. Not sure if it will do that though.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

There are also cases like this for 2-6 cells. Wondering if they had changed circuit. Based on description is hard to tell.

It is obvious the new one Desertride has linked and this one has no sense contact to the bottom of case. So no proper protection has been implemented. Making short on sprins is still quite easy to do.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> I saw these on Amazon the other day and since I've never seen these before I thought I'd make mention of them. Supposedly these are 1.5 volts and have their own charging circuit and USB connector built into each cell. The AAA cells have a capacity rating of 400mAh. Although this doesn't sound like much you have to do the watt/hr. conversion to compare these to the LSD NiMh AAA's which are only 1.2 volts. I believe the NiMh's have a slightly higher watt/hr rating but I'm not sure if the listed 1.5 volt rating of the lithium's is the nominal or peak rating. If the peak rating is higher ( say perhaps (1.8 or maybe 3.7 volts ) than the watt/hr rating of the lithium's will be higher. I also see another version of the same rechargeable AAA li-ion cells ( 1.5 volt output ) that require a special external charger. These might actual have more capacity but they do cost more. All good stuff if you use a product that uses AA or AAA cells.
> 
> There is also an AA version and a 9volt battery version of the rechargeable lithium's as well. Very interesting. I'm curious as to how well all of these new type of cells will actually work.


Once again quoting myself here so to continue on about the new rechargeable 1.5 volt Li-ion AAA's.

Looking at the Amazon website where I first saw these I tried to calculate how the run time on these might compare to the more common Low self discharge NiMh 1.2 volt rechargeable AAA's. Using the link to the "Sorbo" Lithium cells, they claim to have a 400mAh capacity. Doesn't sound like much but anything using Li-ion chemistry is going to have a peak charge of 4.2 volts. My rechargeable LSD Duracell AAA's charge up to 725mAh. Matter of fact I had to charge all of those tonight and almost all varied only about +/- 10mAh. Because of the voltage difference and chemistry of the cells the only way to compare run time ( not having any of the new ones myself ) is to compare the listed stats and convert to watt/hrs. When I do the calculations the lithiums look to have about twice the watt/hr. rating as the Duracells. If that's true then they can provide twice the run time as the NiMh Duracells and even keep the lamps at 1.5 volts which should make any lamp designed to run at 1.5 volts to appear brighter.

Now all this said, don't take what I just said too seriously. I need to get a set of these in my hands so I can do a true hands on comparison. Tonight I'll be placing an order for a set of four of these as well as one of those interesting cell holders mentioned by _Desertride_.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Took a quick look online and still didn't see any 20700/21700 packs yet. Didn't do a whole lotta research though. Anybody know anything available. 

Days are getting shorter. Just getting ready. LOL


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I doubt you'll see those packs very soon. There are so many cheapo packs out there and 18650 cells are very common (and relatively cheap). Demand on good and pricely packs is not that big aside those riders who already invested in good ones and know things very well. Most of them don't need new ones as they choose to buy quality products.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*AAA Li-ion cells, continued*

I finally received my order from Amazon. Yesterday, while working, I plugged all of the cells ( 4 ) into my car's USB outlet to charge. The cells I bought came with a USB cord with 4 micro cords attached ( in parallel ). The Amazon ad for the cells say the cells charge within a couple hours. I'm guessing now that would depend on what type of charger you are using as not all USB outlets are equal.

The down side of using this type of charging system is that you are stuck with it. I cannot charge these cells using my very nice 4-bay cell charger. You have to use a USB power source. That means I have to use one ( or more ) of my plug-in USB chargers. Not a big deal but I now might have to buy me another plug-in USB wall charger because I now have so many bike accessories that require USB charging I am running out of available plugs to charge all the stuff.

The cells took a good number of hours to charge but that was using just one of my car's USB outlets. Took about 7 hrs but that was while doing my job and the USB outlets in my car don't charge unless the car is running. ( the cells have red LED's to show they are charging ) If I had charged them at home using my plug in wall chargers likely they would have charged faster. In retrospect my AAA Duracell NiMh batteries charge in my 4-bay charger in less than two hours.

When I got home from work last night I did a late night road ride on my road setup. I replaced the Duracells with the new Li-ion cells in my wheel lights and so far all seems to be fine. The real issue will now be, "How long will these run compared to the NiMh. Like I said before I think the Li-ions will run longer but the real test is in actual use so I'll let you know how this works out. BTW, I tested the voltage output on the new Li-ion AAA's and all of them were measuring just a hair over 1.5 volts.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Something like "usb meter tester" would come handy in this case. Search on Amazon or eBay for it. I've got something like this:








https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71NaFXJ1FYL._SL1500_.jpg

Shows all you need during charge or dischage, just need correct cabling.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Something like "usb meter tester" would come handy in this case. Search on Amazon or eBay for it. I've got something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very cool. I'll see if I can pick one of those up with my next order. I forgot to add in my last post that it will be interesting to find out just how much self-discharge these new cells will produce. If I had one of those USB meters that might help me judge that as well.

Right now the big heat wave has hit my area. I had planned on doing a MTB ride tonight but I might change that to just a local road ride. ( I want the option to bail if it is just too hot ) I don't want to kill myself on a MTB ride if it's this hot. At my age and fitness level I have to be careful. Hopefully things will cool down once the sun goes completely down. For me the cutoff line for night MTB rides is 85°F. Real glad I don't live in Arizona. Hats off to those who can ride in the super heat of the summer.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Cat, any experience on capacity for those batteries?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Cat, any experience on capacity for those batteries?


No but I should have more info by the end of next week. I have some things I want on Amazon so I should be placing an order sometime next week. When I do I'll order the USB meter you posted. So far I've gotten a couple of rides in with these batteries. My NiMh's seemed to poop after about five rides so by the end of next week I should know more.

Today I did a mountain bike ride....finally. Sadly I might have to put the MTB into the shop for some major repairs. My rear rapid-fire shifter just ain't getting the job done anymore. After about 14 years of use I think the internals of the shifter are partially stripped.

Sometimes when I attempt to down-shift nothing happens. Real PITA when you hit the shifter and the cable doesn't even move. Doesn't do it all the time though. I think the ratcheting mechanism inside the shifter is just worn out. When these were new ( non-rapid rise ) they were suppose to be able to down shift three gears at one time. That ain't been happening for many a year. Need to get this done before my next vacation.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

@Ledoman; When I finished my road right last night ( Sunday ) all of my wheel lights were working. While I was carrying my bike inside the house two of the lights went out and would not come back on. Then the third light likewise as I was moving my bike around inside my home. Only one of the wheel lights was still working but that might be because that particular lamp is a different make than the others ( same form factor as the others but has an on/off button the others don't ). Looks like the others but might have a more efficient driver. . That said I'm sure it's not too far behind the others so I'm now charging all the AAA's. Not sure how many rides I got in using these but I think three, but could of been four. Most of my night road rides don't last more than an hour but tonight I think I was out a little longer. 

Anyway, If I got four rides in that is pretty much what I was getting from the NiMh AAA's I use. I could wish for more run time but hey, these are AAA's. I think it safe to say at this point that they aren't significantly any better than the NiMh's I was using. At least switching out batteries with the wheel lights I use is pretty easy to do. ( just unscrew the top where the battery slot is, flip the wheel upside down and the battery falls out. Takes a couple minutes to do both wheels but that's no big deal if you want to use something like wheel lights. 

Now that I think about it, I recharge almost all my various small self-contained lights after about three rides. I'm sure some of them would run longer but I don't want to take a chance and lose any of my lights while I'm out so I make sure they don't run too low.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*Received; Trustfire 4-cell 18650 battery box*

Just check my mail box and looks like my 4-cell battery holder came in. Right now I don't have 4 18650's of the same type so I had to use what I had just to test it. Everything seems to work and the threaded connector works very well with my ITUO XP3. ( Awe heck, I just realized it doesn't matter if it's threaded because none of my extension cables are threaded anyway...whatever, as long as it works )

I still haven't figured out what the button on top does I just know that when I press the button the battery indicator on top lights up and everything works. When I say everything I mean both the USB and bike connector will work at the same time. I doubt I'll use this directly mounted to my frame since I use the XP3 on the helmet. The B-box will sit inside my hydration pack.

I just now ordered 4 LG MJ1's ( 3500mAh ) 18650's. Orbtronic had them on sale for $6 a piece. Not worried that they are unprotected. Now if it turns out that they might be a bit short I can throw some mini-magnets on them to make them longer. I don't think I'll need to do that though as the box seemed to work with the two MJ1's I already have.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Nice to hear it looks promissing (to some point). Does USB works regardless of button press or it has to be pressed?
Would love to see protection circuit to be compared with those SolarStorm cases. And few pictures please.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Nice to hear it looks promissing (to some point). Does USB works regardless of button press or it has to be pressed?
> Would love to see protection circuit to be compared with those SolarStorm cases. And few pictures please.


I have to test it again to find out how and what the button actually does. The batteries I ordered will probably arrive by Tues of next week. I'll mess with it again when I get home from work tonight but only because I want to know what exactly the button does or doesn't do.

The circuitry of the box is inside the lid of the box. There are two small screws that look like you can remove to access where the electronics are but I'm not going to mess with that because...well...I tend to screw things up like that. I have no idea if there is any protection to the main output. The directions on the box ( I think ) recommends using protected cells but that might only be because the box is designed for protected cells ( those being longer ).

I don't put much faith in what was written on the box though. That's because when I put the cells in according to what was shown on the shipping box it wouldn't work. Then I happened to notice that the "plus and minus" indicators were actually written inside the box. Figures that what was written on the shipping box was wrong.

I also want to retest just to see if the box will work with just two cells. I figure it should but I need to find the right configuration. I ordered mine from Amazon but you can find these almost anywhere. I still had to wait a month to get it as it apparently was shipped from China.

FWIW if seemed to work very well with my XP3 which I'm sure draws a lot of current on high. Output of my lamp looked very bright. I'll probably also try it out mounted to my bike just to see if the vibration causes any problems but I'll wait till I get my new cells before I do that. Almost all of my dedicated bike battery packs have at least 3-4 years on them. At some point I'll have to replace them and so if these cell holders work well that could end up being a very cost efficient way to power my bike lights. For the moment though I'm apprehensive as to how well these are going to work.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

I received the trustfire box as well and am currently testing it with four reclaimed LG cells. Here are a few observations:

1) build quality seems really good, with a nice finish and a tight 0-ring seal. The velcro strap secured on all four corners and appears robust.
2) there are springs on both ends. I gave the box a bunch of good shakes and whacks from all directions and the light kept shining on, so it looks like it would work for off road
3) the button activates the battery indicator and the USB output. when there is no light on, there is no USB out. The button has no effect on the 8.4 v out
4) 8.4 and USB outs can work simultaneously.

Very satisfied thus far, but we'll have to see how it works in the field.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Can you test it with your most powerful light or even with two in parallel? It would be nice to see how much current it can stand. Solarstorm cases are not usable for higher demand. Specialy regulated lights have problems when voltage drops and light tries to pull high current then protection circuit cuts off the power.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't have anything on hand aside from an old single emitter chinese light, but I'm charging my phone at the same time... Next week I can try it with an ITUO XP3


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

Desertride said:


> I received the trustfire box as well and am currently testing it with four reclaimed LG cells. Here are a few observations:


Could you please repeat a link for that box?


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

-Archie- said:


> Could you please repeat a link for that box?


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Dur...831.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.50714c4d35woKL


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

Thank you!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Desertride said:


> I received the trustfire box as well and am currently testing it with four reclaimed LG cells. Here are a few observations:
> 
> 1) build quality seems really good, with a nice finish and a tight 0-ring seal. The velcro strap secured on all four corners and appears robust.
> 2) there are springs on both ends. I gave the box a bunch of good shakes and whacks from all directions and the light kept shining on, so it looks like it would work for off road
> ...


Got my LG's in on Friday. I can verify everything Desertride said as true. The button only turns off the USB. Regardless, with the USB turned off the output on the lamp side is still hot. The LED indicators only come on when the USB is on....and lastly, it will work with only two cells.

There is some wiggle room ( width wise ) with the cell bays if you are using non-protected cells. You might think that might cause some problems but with the top closed down and tightened I can shake it hard and I hear no rattling of cells so this looks like a fairly nice cell holder.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

If you run a pack like this down until the overdischarge is activated, what should the normal range of voltages be for the individual depleted cells, and how big of a variance indicates that they are not well balanced? Is any of the variance caused by the 2p2s setup?


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

According to the observations posted, the electronics seems to be identical (or quite similar) to the SolarStorm box:
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...tant-4-x-18650-battery-case-bicyc-943638.html

The difference in voltage between cells is solely depends on their quality and prior matching (capacity, internal resistance), if any.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Quality cells should not go below 2.8V or 2.5V for some newer ones. But this is the very same moment when it stops discharging. In a few seconds voltage would start rising and would stabilize at about 3.3-3.4V. This is due internal rebalance. So measuring voltage after you took cells out of box won't tell you what was the voltage when protection kicked in. You need to do it in time ie. monitor cells voltage all the time. You need to put some probes on the springs.

Balanced cells are within few hundreds of V. Something like 0.01 - 0.03V difference. Discharge curve should be almost equal, it is not only the voltage to say cells are balanced, but if they are from the same batch it is very likely to be equal.

Welded packs are better than those cases in few regards:
- welding has much less resistance comparing to springs ie. less voltage drop
- welded packs monitors middle point thus knows the voltage of each pair of cells 
- current has more paths to flow ie. more balanced load

In those cases cells doesn't have middle contact and it operates as two "big" cells in parallel. You know only the stage of that "big" cell not for each 18650. With quality cells there is less to worry. Anyway it is good to balance the cells from time to time. You can simply charge them in 4 bay charger or connect for some time all 4 in parallel using some magnets and piece of wire on each side. Out of case of course.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

If I understand correctly, the voltage I read when I remove them does not indicate if they are balanced? In theory these LG cells should be balanced when they were first put in the laptop battery I took them from. I've been charging them in a 4 bay nitecore charger.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes you are correct, that voltage might vary more at the end. Since you charge them with Nitecore charger they are supposed to be filled all the same and balanced. You can check them right off the charger. If you leave them resting for a day and measure the voltage they should be still all the same (almost). Preferbly they would retain the voltage from previous day. If the cells differ more than few mV this might indicate differencies which can lead to unbalanced cells. But again, for you it doesn't matter if you charge them ocasionaly in Nitecore charger.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

I just pulled six Samsung 26f cells from a laptop battery that all look to be in much better shape, so hopefully that will give me more use of the box. 
BTW, I notice that on the box it says "EB02 mobile power box only applies to 18650 battery [with protection PCB]" so I guess they only want you to use protected cells?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Have you checked the voltage of each cell after you pulled them out of laptop pack? It could be idicative.

Well, to be more safe using protected cells if good option, but if you have good cells and know what are you doing it is not necessary.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

yeah, they all measured 3.78


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Excelent.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Desertride said:


> I just pulled six Samsung 26f cells from a laptop battery that all look to be in much better shape, so hopefully that will give me more use of the box.
> *BTW, I notice that on the box it says "EB02 mobile power box only applies to 18650 battery [with protection PCB]" so I guess they only want you to use protected cells?*


Yes, I think I mentioned that I read the same thing. If you are one of those people who characteristically runs your batteries down to shut-off you should at least run one protected cell for each of the sets in series. I'm using non-protected but only because I know I almost never plan to ride really long night rides. If I were to use half of the listed capacity of my cells I would be amazed. Matter of fact when I do my first ride with these I'll know the next day how much my cells discharged after I recharge them in my 4-bay AccuPower charger.

*Edit...Of course I should add that if you use only non-protected cells you have no protection against something bad happening if somehow there was to occur a short somewhere in the connecting wires. While rare it can happen. Yep, if that happened the result would be realllllll bad.


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## Sirius9 (Apr 24, 2013)

Anyone noticed this "new" battery case available from FT!







I wouldn't rely on its quality though...


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Vancbiker said:


> If there are springs on both ends of the cells and they are fairly stiff, It should work pretty well. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts and experiences once you have one.
> 
> If it turns out well, I'd likely buy a few and gut out all the USB and other BS and end up with a good battery case.


I ordered a couple of the Trustfire cases from Amazon and they arrived today, I put some good charged cells in one and the battery meter LEDs indicated low charge so I figured that was a sign from Cthulhu that it needed to be rid of the USB appendage and I immediately set to ripping it apart. I removed the PCB and hard wired the spring ends to a cable. There are springs on both ends, but with unprotected cells you can still induce loss of contact with hard shaking in a vertical orientation. Probably not mounted horizontally the way I normally run them. And no more dead cells if you forget about them for too long. I added a neoprene foam pad to one side, and I am expecting that the cells may rattle enough while riding to need a pad or cushion of some sort inside, that remains to be seen. It would probably also help with the contact issue if they didn't move so freely inside. Overall it's a decent case, better than the other similar ones I have tried but far from perfect.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Velodonata, can you take sharp macro pictures of the PCB and post it here (+ full size picture somewhere). It would be interesting to see how it is constucted.
I've ordered one from eBay, but it will take month or two to reach me.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

ledoman said:


> Velodonata, can you take sharp macro pictures of the PCB and post it here (+ full size picture somewhere). It would be interesting to see how it is constucted.


Sure, I hope these are good enough.

Some more observations: In comparing the one that is not yet modified to the one I did last night, there is already noticeable compression of the springs from having had cells in and out several times, not surprising but better springs would have been nice. The straps seem decent, they are actually stitched together instead of heat fused, I suppose that it better? The case shape and the integrated strap slots are nice, but not including padding is lame. I keep adhesive backed neoprene foam around for this sort of thing. The aluminum knob is definitely a step up from the other similar cases, and the o-ring seal is tight. It has an index groove on one side of the cover that is also better than the one slightly different corner profile of the other cases. Bold polarity markings inside the case are a nice touch. The second one also read only one of three green LEDs with fully charged cells, so that is lame but then I didn't get these for USB use so it doesn't really affect me. I haven't messed yet with the 6-cell one I also received.

These won't be my primary packs but they will get use as loaners and backups, it seems like nobody will ever bother to make a really good housing for loose cells. Keystone sleds seem to be the highest quality way to contain loose cells, I will keep playing with the best way to utilize them.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

Velodonata said:


> The second one also read only one of three green LEDs with fully charged cells, so that is lame ]


It is working, it's just configured with green, yellow, red indicators. One green is full.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Velodonata, good pictures, thanks. I'm wondering if the B1 point has connection to the R2 and C2. It's hard to see. Can you please check with DMM? If so B1 should be connected to the bottom of case adding missing middle check point to read voltage of each pair of cells. I know, it's hard to do it. Firstly all four bottom springs should be cross connected and somehow wired to B1.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Desertride said:


> It is working, it's just configured with green, yellow, red indicators. One green is full.


Well I'll be damned, I had that all wrong. It would be nice if the box indicated that. So how did I get that in my head, I would have swore my other old cases with the same one button, 3 LEDs setup worked that way, am I just remembering it wrong? I never really use that feature anyway, but I don't like to spread misinformation.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

ledoman said:


> Velodonata, good pictures, thanks. I'm wondering if the B1 point has connection to the R2 and C2. It's hard to see. Can you please check with DMM? If so B1 should be connected to the bottom of case adding missing middle check point to read voltage of each pair of cells. I know, it's hard to do it. Firstly all four bottom springs should be cross connected and somehow wired to B1.


Yes, there is continuity among those three points. It does seem like it would be a lot of trouble to fix that problem. I am going to run these gutted and hope I don't loan one to somebody dumb enough to run my batteries down too far. I always charge the good loose cells individually anyway.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Velodonata said:


> ....Some more observations: In comparing the one that is not yet modified to the one I did last night, there is already noticeable compression of the springs from having had cells in and out several times, not surprising but better springs would have been nice. The straps seem decent, they are actually stitched together instead of heat fused, I suppose that it better? The case shape and the integrated strap slots are nice,* but not including padding is lame. I keep adhesive backed neoprene foam around for this sort of thing. *The aluminum knob is definitely a step up from the other similar cases, and the o-ring seal is tight. *It has an index groove on one side of the cover that is also better than the one slightly different corner profile of the other cases.* Bold polarity markings inside the case are a nice touch. The second one also read only one of three green LEDs with fully charged cells, so that is lame but then I didn't get these for USB use so it doesn't really affect me. I haven't messed yet with the 6-cell one I also received...


OH crap on me! I had no idea you could buy adhesive backed neoprene! Damn, just placed an Amazon order yesterday too. Amazon sells everything. Oh well, will get with my next order. Not real easy to see that groove on the lid when putting on the top. I might have to mark it better to make it easier to see. Piece of tape should do the trick.

@Ledoman; I ordered one of those USB meters. Should have it Saturday.

Damn am I pissed. I'm off from work next week and just looked at the forecast for next week. Incredible but it seems it's projected to rain almost everyday. :incazzato::madman: It's stuff like this that drives me insane. It almost seems to do this every time I get a week off. :smallviolin:...Strange but there was this character in the book, "Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy", that everywhere the guy went, it rained. Rain just followed him everywhere. According to the author he didn't know it but he was a "rain god"...I'm beginning to think I'm turning into one of those only in my case only when I'm on vacation.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Velodonata said:


> .....there is already noticeable compression of the springs from having had cells in and out several times, not surprising but better springs would have been nice.


That's disappointing. Scratch these off the "things to order list".


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

Cat-man-do said:


> Damn am I pissed. I'm off from work next week and just looked at the forecast for next week. Incredible but it seems it's projected to rain almost everyday. :incazzato::madman: It's stuff like this that drives me insane. It almost seems to do this every time I get a week off. :smallviolin:...Strange but there was this character in the book, "Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy", that everywhere the guy went, it rained. Rain just followed him everywhere. According to the author he didn't know it but he was a "rain god"...I'm beginning to think I'm turning into one of those only in my case only when I'm on vacation.


In my country, it's raining at autumn, raining at winter, raining at spring, and raining at summer. So, I've used to ignore the rain - otherwise, I'll have to select some other hobby instead of biking...

BTW, one of recent weekly rides of our cycling club occurred at the day when 1/3 of monthly precipitation quote was dropped at us within 1.5 hours:
local news 1 local news 2

(no need to bother with GoogleTranslate; just watch the video clips)


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

-Archie- said:


> In my country, it's raining at autumn, raining at winter, raining at spring, and raining at summer. So, I've used to ignore the rain - otherwise, I'll have to select some other hobby instead of biking...
> 
> BTW, one of recent weekly rides of our cycling club occurred at the day when 1/3 of monthly precipitation quote was dropped at us within 1.5 hours:
> local news 1 local news 2
> ...


When I was younger I used to ride in rain and other adverse conditions. Just not real fun and I found it tended to wear out parts on my bike really fast. It also really was a PITA having to clean the bike after one of those outings. I have no access to a hose so I would have to clean using buckets of water or taking to a car wash. None of that was fun either or easy to do.

At the moment I have no rain gear that fit's me anymore. Regardless even if I did it wouldn't matter, I hate rain. If you wear glasses there simply is no way to prevent the rain from covering your glasses. I thought of trying something like "Rain-X" on my glasses but my glasses have an anti-reflective coating on the lenses and I wouldn't want to take the chance it might have some adverse effect and ruin my glasses.

If you live in a mountainous area rain only effects the trails so much since most of the trail surfaces are rock. Where I live it's low lying dirt. Depending on how much it rains makes a big difference. The formula I use for riding after a rain for my area is this. ( in the summer )< 0.25", can ride the next day. ~1" can ride in two or three days depending on time of day when it actually stops. > 2" over a period of 2-3 days and you're pretty much done for several days. I use the local private weather stations on "Weatherunderground" to help judge what areas near me had what amount of rainfall. Their graphs tell you not only how much rain fell but when it started and when it ended. Without that tool I would be taking chances on driving far distances and then end up wasting a lot of time and gas.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Velodonata said:


> ..Some more observations: In comparing the one that is not yet modified to the one I did last night,* there is already noticeable compression of the springs from having had cells in and out several times, not surprising but better springs would have been nice.* The straps seem decent, they are actually stitched together instead of heat fused, I suppose that it better? The case shape and the integrated strap slots are nice, but not including padding is lame. I keep adhesive backed neoprene foam around for this sort of thing....


Hmmm....All I can say is, "We'll just have to wait and see how well these springs hold up over the long haul". It dawned on me after my last post that I already have some sponge like adhesive backed weather stripping laying around so I put some of that on the box to see how it would work on the frame of my bike. Seems to do okay and doesn't seem to move too much. I bounced the bike around in my home while connected to my GW X2 and didn't see any problems. In the long run it will depend on how long the springs hold up. Of course you could always add some magnets to the back of the cells if the springs start to compress. That could extend the usefulness of box. I figure if they last a couple seasons you've pretty much got your monies worth out of it.

I'm still waiting for a box that will hold 2 x 20700's or 4 x 20700's.

*@Ledoman*; I noticed tonight while looking at something on Amazon that I saw another brand of Li-ion AAA's only these claim a capacity rating of 1040mah. I was tempted to buy some but then I noticed the very low rating ( less than 3 stars ). Could be the people who are buying them don't know how to properly charge them or to put the cap back on right. I'll wait though till I know more about the ones I already have. I should have the USB meter tomorrow. Then I'll have to find a way to discharge the cells. I have been using them this week so they shouldn't have too much juice left.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> ....*@Ledoman*; I noticed tonight while looking at something on Amazon that I saw another brand of Li-ion AAA's only these claim a capacity rating of 1040mah. I was tempted to buy some but then I noticed the very low rating ( less than 3 stars ). Could be the people who are buying them don't know how to properly charge them or to put the cap back on right. I'll wait though till I know more about the ones I already have. I should have the USB meter tomorrow. Then I'll have to find a way to discharge the cells. I have been using them this week so they shouldn't have too much juice left.


I've got my Li-ion AAA's charging right now with one on the USB meter. Figuring out how to work the meter is going to take some time. The instructions ( likely translated from Chinese ) are not very helpful. Right now the screen is set for Wh so I'll wait till it's done before I start playing with the mode button. ( don't want to accidentally reset ). I'm hoping it will easily change over to mAh when I fiddle with the modes but I have to wait. If something happens and I end up resetting I'll do the conversion using the math.

So far it's been on the charger for almost an hour and the Wh ( watt hour ) reading is not too impressive. I did notice that when I put the AAA on the charger the Amp output started out at about 1.3A and then quickly began to drop. At the moment it is holding at about 80ma. I expect the battery to finish in another hour but that's just my guess. I am now also the proud owner of a ten port USB fast charger. Can't wait to see how well it charges my phone. Now all I have to do is find all those spare USB to micro cords that I stowed away somewhere.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Continued from last post:

Okay, not real happy with the results of the test. Not to mention I'm not sure what to make of the reading off the meter. Meter says the battery took a charge equaling to 0.92 Wh. The meter equates this to only 175mAh and this is where things get strange. When I do the calculations based on the Wh's I get somewhere between 219-248mAh ( depending on what value you use for voltage, nominal 3.7 or 4.2 peak. ( pause for thought ).....okay I think I know what the meter is doing. It is using the voltage reading off the charging unit ( 5.29 volts ) as it's base voltage for the conversion. Don't know why it would do that. perhaps there is a way to set the meter to 4.2 volts, I don't know. Anyway, charging time was 2hrs and 13 minutes. _ I'm going to go with 248mAh which is still pretty lame._

Still these were listed as being 400mAh so that seems to be your typical Chinese BS claim. Of course this is something that is charging using two separate charging circuits in series, the one in the USB charger and the one built into the battery. Hard to say how all this factors in. I'm just happy I can get at least three to four short rides in with these in my wheel lights.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Cat-man-do said:


> OH crap on me! I had no idea you could buy adhesive backed neoprene! Damn, just placed an Amazon order yesterday too. Amazon sells everything. Oh well, will get with my next order. Not real easy to see that groove on the lid when putting on the top. I might have to mark it better to make it easier to see. Piece of tape should do the trick.


Yes, that neoprene is handy and I did get it from Amazon. So it turns out that small strategically placed pieces of 1/8" neoprene placed on the flats of the internal support of the case are just the thing to keep the batteries from rattling and moving around, and help the springs keep contact in the rough stuff. I also put some Scotch 8896 tape on the neoprene to cut down on the grippiness of it, otherwise the batteries can be a bear to get out. Silver Sharpie works well to highlight the index spots. These things may be more trouble than they are worth once it's all done!


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Vancbiker said:


> That's disappointing. Scratch these off the "things to order list".


It is disappointing, but not unexpected. Pretty standard for any little wire spring to take a new set once it gets put to use, and I'm sure these are metallurgically nothing to brag about. I can't say how much of a problem it will pose over time, but they haven't lost all tension, just taken a new shorter set from being well compressed. I think the internal foam pads I installed to better support the batteries will help the springs.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Velodonata said:


> Yes, that neoprene is handy and I did get it from Amazon. So it turns out that small strategically placed pieces of 1/8" neoprene placed on the flats of the internal support of the case are just the thing to keep the batteries from rattling and moving around, and help the springs keep contact in the rough stuff. I also put some Scotch 8896 tape on the neoprene to cut down on the grippiness of it, otherwise the batteries can be a bear to get out. Silver Sharpie works well to highlight the index spots. These things may be more trouble than they are worth once it's all done!


Yes, that sounds like an interesting idea. If mine start to rattle I might have to try something like that. It will ( as you said ) make getting the cells out a lot harder to do. Just now I tried shaking mine more vigorously and yes I can make them rattle although not easy to do. I might have to do what you did and then use needle nose pliers to get the cells out when I need to charge the cells.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Cat-man-do said:


> I might have to do what you did and then use needle nose pliers to get the cells out when I need to charge the cells.


With the bare neoprene it was close to needing tools to get them out, but adding the tape layer lets you shake them out enough to grab them. Using the right thickness of foam is key. I just wanted them lightly snug. Another option, there is probably room to make a little hook tool to pull them out, too. They can stay in there most of the time, I will just take them out for individual charging occasionally, they aren't going to go out of balance enough to matter for a while.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Cat, sorry for late reply. Not shure which USB meter device you have exactly, but there should be the button to switch between different views. Reseting might be done by long press or something similar. Also there might be 9 or 10 sets of data to remember and you can cycle through them. If you don't have instructions I can find them for you. Just send me a link to your device.

I'm not surprised you can fill only small amount of energy in those AAA cells. Then of course it returns even less due stepdown conversion. Wh/mAh in USB meter should be calculated at discrete points and sumarized. So using current and voltage at given time, not averages.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Cat, sorry for late reply. Not shure which USB meter device you have exactly, but there should be the button to switch between different views. Reseting might be done by long press or something similar. Also there might be 9 or 10 sets of data to remember and you can cycle through them. If you don't have instructions I can find them for you. Just send me a link to your device.
> 
> I'm not surprised you can fill only small amount of energy in those AAA cells. Then of course it returns even less due stepdown conversion. Wh/mAh in USB meter should be calculated at discrete points and sumarized. So using current and voltage at given time, not averages.


This is the meter. I pretty much figured most of it out but there is a person who commented on Amazon that detailed most of the functions.

The mAh reading appears to use the voltage from the charging source. This is no problem but the battery itself has it's own voltage. Once charged it will discharge at a given rate and thus have it's own mAh reading. While this may vary a bit depending on load, it will give you more of a "real world " useful number. That said this is why watt hrs are at times more useful to work with. The best way to get the mAh reading from the battery itself would be to do a discharge test and/or do a recharge test using a voltage source nearer the peak voltage of the battery being tested.

Another possibility; Could be the battery inside the cell is an actual 400mAh battery but the charging circuit inside the battery could possibly only be designed to charge the cell to only a certain percentage of the actual capacity. No way to know for sure though unless someone were to disassemble the cell, remove the PCB and then test the capacity of the actual Li-ion cell being used.

Would be nice to convert something like this USB tester over to standard battery connectors so you could read Wh or mAh when ever you felt the need with your standard battery packs. Likely they make something like that but it would have to be able to handle 10A to be on the safe side.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I've got one from Atorch 3.60V ~ 32.5 V and - 0.00A ~ 5.00 A which suits for most needs.









I've dismontled plastic cover and soldered standard 5.5x2.1mm connectors to it at USB ports. Made apropriate dent to plastic cover so I could put it back in place.

Testing battery could be done on the field having meter inline between battery and light. Of course it would be better to have 10A one, but you just need to choose right light for it. Most are below 5A, so no problem with that. Since meter could be dimmed after few seconds (see instructions for BL) it is perfect just to check situation from time to time nad not using much power.

At the end of course you can easily check how much energy you have used. Of course there is some voltage drop over it (+ connectors) so the measurment is bit off, but it can give you fairly good information what was happening. Alternatively you can use resistor load to get info on energy/capacity of the battery pack. Don't forget resistors get really hot and it is advised to cool them somehow.

Will try to take picture of my moded "device".

PS. I've found similar 15A device.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> I've got one from Atorch 3.60V ~ 32.5 V and - 0.00A ~ 5.00 A which suits for most needs.
> 
> View attachment 1209798
> 
> ...


The link to the other one on Aliexpress is a good find and would be easier to adapt over to bike battery connectors. I had a question as to whether or not the unit would store the last readings if the power was interrupted. I tried it with the one I have and it does indeed save the last reading. Mine too is rated for ~ 5A but I don't think I'd be comfortable putting something like this USB type in-line with something like my XP-3. With the XP-3 I'm figuring with 3 x XM-L2 emitters it could possibly draw more than 5A.

Of course if you were using something like this and your battery died you wouldn't be able to read anything on the meter until you connected it to another power source. I saw this unit on Amazon. A little bigger than the one you linked to on AExpress but the one on Amazon apparently has some option to included an additional optional power source. Perhaps it can also stay operational with a couple button cells as back up (?) ( not required though ). It also apparently has the ability to limit peak current levels to prevent damage to your battery. That might come in real handy if using unprotected cells inside one of those battery holders. I could probably attach it too my cell holder with a couple plastic zip ties. There is also a function with the one on Amazon that will give you a peak reading for amps. I think I'd like knowing what peak amps are being used.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*Problems with USB to micro cables*

I had something strange happen last night while trying to recharge one of my Raveman lamps. I was using my new ten port USB charger, the USB meter and a USB to micro cord. For some reason the lamp was taking forever to charge. I ended up going to bed and when I got up the lamp looked like it was still charging. ( what the! ) Since I knew something was wrong I took all the cables off and tried with a different cable. With a different cable the meter ( and the lamp ) immediately showed that the battery in the lamp was completely charged ( as did the meter ). :nono::nonod: For the heck of it I tried the original cable and once again the lamp looked like it still needed to charge...:nono:

I guess this means if you have a bad cable somehow it can screw with what is displayed on the unit being charged. I've had cables go bad before but never before have I had anything like this happen.


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

-Archie- said:


> In my country, it's raining at autumn, raining at winter, raining at spring, and raining at summer.


I'm from Vermont.

There's a saying in Vermont, "What comes after two days of rain?"

"Monday."

I don"t live in Vermont anymore.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

*WARNING: Fake cells are being selled on some ALiExpress stores*

I've got them too. Discussion on BudgetLightForum about this issue.

I've ordered tabbed Panasonic NCR18650B from two stores abt Ali. First one was Liitokala next was VariCore to check if this is common problem.

There are some visual things you can check. Firstly wrapper are wrinkled on both sides along the cells. Next, printing has different font and some minor differencies. There are also missing printings visible under wrapping. For example 2D barcode which should be on place of the sticker, but there is none.

Here is full size picture showing differencies - fake cell on the top (VariCore) and original Panasonic below. See some tiny differencies in printing.









Will add discharge graph later on.....








It is not all that bad, I've got 3250mA at 2A out of fake cell, but the problem is we don't know which one it is and what quality nor how many charges we can expect.


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

So where is a legit place to get 18650B panos?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Depends on where you live. For me it is nkon.nl


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

North America- Canada specifically. Don’t mind ordering them from overseas, from a legit source.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Read the thread at BLF I've linked in post #462 above. You might find out some.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Ofroad'bent said:


> So where is a legit place to get 18650B panos?


Fla. USA....Orbtronic. If you want protected cells you can buy those as well. The protected cells get the Orbtronic label over them and they of course cost more. I buy all my cells directly from Orbtronic now.

I have to laugh at the graph that was put up because it makes the "so called" fake cells look better...at least true through 75% of the graph. Only difference was at the very end. If these are indeed fake they are very good fakes.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> .....I have to laugh at the graph that was put up because it makes the "so called" fake cells look better...at least true through 75% of the graph. Only difference was at the very end. If these are indeed fake they are very good fakes.


I'd be interested to see the discharge curve after 50 or so discharge/charge cycles. I'm betting there would be a notable drop in performance at that point.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Well, me too. Of course I won't do that. It would take month or two of everydays work on it. I would need automated charge/discharge station.
Anyway i plan to make 2S2P battery pack out of those for someone. I'll try to get pack back to test after some time. Mostly people contact me if something is wrong. I not used very often then I would expect even those cells would be good enough.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*Trustfire 4-cell battery box; First MTB test run*

Yeah it took some time but I finally got a chance to do an actual night time mountain bike ride. No problems with the box. I was of course using it inside my hydration backpack and connected to my helmet mounted XP3. There still remains the question of just how much current is going to come out of one of these. The only thing I can say about that at this point is that I noticed no dimming of the lamp when on it's highest setting. Matter of fact, the few times I actually ran the lamp on high the lamp head got really, really hot. ( ambient temps around 70°F and humidity around 75% )

At one point the lamp got so hot I had a hard time turning if off without burning my finger. With this in mind I don't think it is using less current. If anything it might be feeding the lamp more current otherwise I'm having a hard time explaining why it got so hot. Might have been because I was just poking along but usually when I'm not riding fast I don't use the highest output. Going forward I might have to start using the remote on the helmet so I can turn it off without my finger getting burned. Turning off the XP3 takes about 4-5 sec. and that is just too long ( while holding the button down ) if the lamp is really hot.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Here we go. Now some sellers confess between the lines they are using fake cells.

VariCore for NCR18650B I've tested and made pictures above:

Dear customer friend, you are welcome to VariCore brand stores, some recent customer friend feedback, the purchase of the battery, the charger capacity testing capacity than the previous low, here we make a notice, please friends before buying Carefully read this passage, thank you!

 First of all, the type of charger on the market is very much different, with different charger test, the capacity of the display will be different, there is because some countries have become cold, the battery capacity will be affected, the relative Low.

We summarize the feedback of many friends, for this section battery capacity testing, the actual test capacity is *3050-3450mAh*, bought friends, if you test the capacity of 3050-3450mAh, please customers not to friends capacity Not enough for the reason, and to our dispute refunds. If you mind, please do not buy! Thank you

Somewhere else they write:

We summarize the feedback of many friends, for this section battery capacity testing, the actual test capacity is *3250-3450mAh*, bought friends, if you test the capacity of 3250-3450mAh, please customers not to friends capacity Not enough for the reason, and to our dispute refunds. If you mind, please do not buy! Thank you


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

I'm just wondering what were the actual tested capacities of the VariCore cells. I tried looking at some of the posts but I don't see that anywhere. Personally if I bought cells that were suppose to be 3400mAh I would expect the discharge reading to be at least in the high 3200mAh range. 

Since VariCore is supplying the cell with their own protection I don't find it odd that the wrapper on the cell is not exactly like the ones when the cell is non-protected. 

When I bought my LG-MJ1's from Orbtronic ( unprotected ) I think those cells discharge to somewhere in the high 3300's even though the cells are listed as being 3500mAh. I didn't find that odd in the least. Now if they had been in the 3200 range I would of been disappointed. 

One guy on BLF thought that if the cells were losing more than 0.002 volts a day after buying that the cells were fakes. My goodness! I doubt any of the equipment that I use to measures electronics has an accuracy that is that precise! The guy must work for NASA or something if he can test for something that has a difference of a thousand of a volt. Now if I test something and the result is 4.215 on one day and 4.210 a couple days later I'd likely never even think anything strange about it.


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## bhakjdlmn1 (Sep 27, 2018)

First post, just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has continued to the lighting forum. I'm going to start commuting to and from work, so I've made a few purchases based on the discussion here. My commute is relatively short, no longer than 45 minutes each way, and generally on lit paths and roads, so maximum runtime on high mode isn't required.

I'm looking for a 2s1p pack to strap to my helmet for use with an XP2. I saw Ledoman had reviewed a KD pack with Panasonic cells, but I can't find it anywhere any more. The Rockbros one looks alright, but for the same cost, why not try to find the pack with better cells, right?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes, Kaidomain has migrated to new web site and all old links doesn't work anymore. Will try to renew them when find time.

Their battery packs can be found here: *http://kaidomain.com/bike-lights-and-bike-accessories/battery-packs*

Note there are two 2S1P packs. The difference is in the cable length.


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## Handlebarsfsr (Dec 7, 2004)

Battery on my solarstorm went our, looking for a replacement. Found this on eBay, anyone know anything about innovolta battery packs? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Upgrade-Ma...Life-Battery/273009541981?hash=item3f90a3035d


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Handlebarsfsr said:


> Battery on my solarstorm went our, looking for a replacement. Found this on eBay, anyone know anything about innovolta battery packs? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Upgrade-Ma...Life-Battery/273009541981?hash=item3f90a3035d


I had to look this up to make sure it wasn't some kind of BS claim. Seems these types of batteries are real. Could make for a nice bike light battery. Since no one else has ever mentioned these before not much is known about how well they work. Hopefully if you buy one you will get the connector you need. This is not a bad price for an American made / shipped battery. If the stated amp hr. is real it should be worth the price.

You do have other options though. You could buy a Trustfire 4-cell holder and use something like that. Loose cells are easier to buy and also cost less. The standard connector on the Trustfire holder should work perfectly with your SStorm light.

Anyway, information on the NMC type cells is below, courtesy of _Battery University_...



> *Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2 or NMC)*
> 
> One of the most successful Li-ion systems is a cathode combination of nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC). Similar to Li-manganese, these systems can be tailored to serve as Energy Cells or Power Cells. For example, NMC in an 18650 cell for moderate load condition has a capacity of about 2,800mAh and can deliver 4A to 5A; NMC in the same cell optimized for specific power has a capacity of only about 2,000mAh but delivers a continuous discharge current of 20A. A silicon-based anode will go to 4,000mAh and higher but at reduced loading capability and shorter cycle life. Silicon added to graphite has the drawback that the anode grows and shrinks with charge and discharge, making the cell mechanically unstable.
> 
> ...


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Linked battery pack looks good. The only thing I see problematic in some cases is 4A cut-off. More powerful lights might have problems, specialy if the driver is regulated.


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## Handlebarsfsr (Dec 7, 2004)

I’m debating between the innovolta and the trustfire/ loose cells idea. I would want the protected cells, so that pushes the cost higher, and there’s enough information about matches cells and the resistance in the springs to make me want a sealed, welded unit. Maybe I’ll pull the trigger and see how it works.


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## Handlebarsfsr (Dec 7, 2004)

double post


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

I was speaking with Kaidomain, and they can do a 1S2P battery pack in rubberized case if there is interest. 2 Panasonic cells.,3.7v. 

I used to build lights that ran on those, so I may order some. Is there interest here?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Handlebarsfsr said:


> I'm debating between the innovolta and the trustfire/ loose cells idea. I would want the protected cells, so that pushes the cost higher, and there's enough information about matches cells and the resistance in the springs to make me want a sealed, welded unit. Maybe I'll pull the trigger and see how it works.


No doubt welded pack is better if it only has good cells. I would ask the seller which ones they have used. There might be Panasonic NCR18650A (3100mAh). Not many cells out there have that capacity.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Is Hunk Lee still a good source for batteries? Link shows shpping from US and the price is good.
https://www.ebay.com.my/itm/Panasonic-NCR18650B-7-4V-6800mAh-Protected-Li-ion-battery-for-Bike-Light-2S2P-US/323006645082?hash=item4b34b2435a:g:ZbsAAOSwA3dYRioQ
Mole


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

It should be. I think he's trustworth but never tried personaly except for balancing PCB.


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## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

Ofroad'bent said:


> I was speaking with Kaidomain, and they can do a 1S2P battery pack in rubberized case if there is interest. 2 Panasonic cells.,3.7v.
> 
> I used to build lights that ran on those, so I may order some. Is there interest here?


I run something similar to this for my Solarstorm2's I got years back. I can get at least 2 hours out of them on medium. I made a splitter and will connect 2 packs together to get longer runtime for my BT40 and Outbound lights. Our manufacturer changed the case on them so they were just sitting on the shelf collecting dust. Best part is custom chargers so I can charge the 2 packs separately and they get done faster than my 4 cell packs.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Handlebarsfsr said:


> I'm debating between the innovolta and the trustfire/ loose cells idea. I would want the protected cells, so that pushes the cost higher, and there's enough information about matches cells and the resistance in the springs to make me want a sealed, welded unit. Maybe I'll pull the trigger and see how it works.


If this is something that you want to use mounted to the bike frame than I would tend to lean toward the sealed battery pack. I own one of the Trustfire cell holders but I use mine inside my hydration backpack ( for helmet lamp ) where there is not much shock or vibration. So far though I've not heard many people complain about the cells losing contact although someone did say that the springs on theirs had compressed after a period of time. I've not had any problems with mine but I don't use it that much. I'm not worried about spring compression on mine. If that happens I can use small magnets to add length to the cells or worse case scenario I can buy a new one for $15. No big deal as long as it lasts a year or two without problems.

Keep in mind that if you go the cell holder route that you don't need to use all protected cells. You can use one protected cell per series and that should give you enough protection. I don't use protected cells at all but that's only because I have no intention of doing extremely long rides at night. Two to three hours between medium and high setting and I'm good. I doubt I use half the capacity of the battery on any ride.


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

Do Kaidoman use quality cells in their battery packs? Also, are they protected cells?

Thanks!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

See post #2 and read linked threads.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

I have a generic battery pack that came with a cheap light a while back. I wanted to test it with my newer lights but apparently the pin in the barrel connector is slightly larger than standard. I'm wondering what are the advantages of soldering in a new DC jack versus just taking it apart and loading the cells into a trustfire box.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I would stay with welded pack. The protection PCB is good enough (standard) and you minimize voltage drop. There is also no parasitic drain (well almost if we are picky). At least three reasons to leave as is and just change the cable with proper connector.

In a box you would get more resistance over springs (voltage drop), parasitic USB drain and shakey cells. Also thin wires means additional reistance. And finaly protection is semi usable.

Now when you have opened the pack, check the voltage of each pair of cells to see if they are balanced.


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## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

Desertride said:


> I have a generic battery pack that came with a cheap light a while back. I wanted to test it with my newer lights but apparently the pin in the barrel connector is slightly larger than standard. I'm wondering what are the advantages of soldering in a new DC jack versus just taking it apart and loading the cells into a trustfire box.


Are all 4 of your cells actually connected? I ask as I had 2 generic 4cell packs and when checking them I noticed that only 2 cells in each were actually connected. The other 2 were just glued in place taking up space and in random orientation regarding + and -. I joked that this was how cells are "recycled"


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

It happened before, ask Garry. Yes, you need only two active cells to get proper voltage and they have added 2 dead for weight and look. Average cheapo users are not aware and everything works, just how long...


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

ledoman said:


> It happened before, ask Garry.


Yep, as seen in the review of the GearBest Triple XM-L2 light w/pack I reviewed. You can measure voltage across the single cells and if the two measure "0.00" be suspicious.

-Garry


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

ledoman said:


> I would stay with welded pack. The protection PCB is good enough (standard) and you minimize voltage drop. There is also no parasitic drain (well almost if we are picky). At least three reasons to leave as is and just change the cable with proper connector.
> 
> In a box you would get more resistance over springs (voltage drop), parasitic USB drain and shakey cells. Also thin wires means additional reistance. And finaly protection is semi usable.
> 
> Now when you have opened the pack, check the voltage of each pair of cells to see if they are balanced.


I just received a set of the waterproof screw in style connectors from china, but had not noticed when ordering that they are 22 gauge. Would that be too thin to use? assume the total length from cells to light is not more than 2ft.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Depends on current used. It can be calculated easily, but don't have formulas in my head. Over the thumb 2ft is just about on top length to use 2A. Of course this doesn't count significant voltage drop in the connector or any other element like protection circuit.

You can experiment with help of:
https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html

I can recall someone has measured drop of about 0.4V from battery to KD2 light which has about 3 feet long 22AWG cable and includes connector and cable to the battery. Using battery box things get even worse and additional voltage drop in springs.


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

*The New 21700 format*

Old but Interesting article from Electric Bike

https://www.electricbike.com/new-21700-cells/

Counterfeit Cells are Everywhere!


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

patski said:


> .....Counterfeit Cells are Everywhere!


Interesting read. Thanks.

Yes, junk cells are prevalent. Here's a link to one I found......

https://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/whats-cheap-chinese-18650-a-1068018.html


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

*Panasonic Protected NCR18650B 3400mAh*

Been difficult to find genuine Panasonics for a while now but these cropped up on eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rechargeab...var=631955150518&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Purchased a dozen for ~ $48 after discount (not including NY tax) and just one seemed to be slightly faulty, only charges to 4.15V. Will cycle it back down and recharge on the XTAR to see if that can bring it up to the max 4.2V. Anyway the vendor compensated me quite generously so I ordered another 4.

Was kinda freaked out when package arrived because although the cells are supposedly made in Japan, each individual case of four was sealed in a grey plastic envelope with China on the label. Took me a moment to realize that it's just the protection circuitry which must be finished there, D'oh! Also eBay listing says Item Location: Dayton, NJ but mine shipped from Los Angeles. Took ten days to get to me here in NY via FedExSmart Post which was exactly as estimated so can't complain too much.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Would you mind publish macro picture of text on single cell. There is some 
tiny difference being fake or geniue. Then I might identify it.

From my post #462 where full version of picture can be found:








Lower one is geniue.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

*New Protected Panasonic NCR 18650B (Left) Versus Older Unprotected (R)*






















I guess it's the codes stamped on the - end that you were looking for?

Although different from each other the new protected cells on the left and the unprotected ones I purchased some years ago both have codes there which are missing from your fakes, ledoman.

Does that mean my new cells are genuine or are the codes themselves faked?

Thanks!!!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Sorry to say, but your new protected cells are fakes. No I don't check for stamped codes. Some indications I've found on mine and also presented on yours:


nicer more clear font on fake cells
"WARNING : BATTERY" on fake vs "WARNING :BATTERY" on geniue (misssing space). 
green wrapping is tipicaly more wrinkled on fakes (nicely presented on your last picture)
missing "3D" codebar (can't see on your pictures, so please check)

But also check my post #462. Cells are not bad. Some rumors say they might be some bad batch of BAK 3500mAh or other Chinese manufacturer.

So to say, cells are usable if used in parallel. I would not use them in series unless balancing setup is used or cells are charged separately.

To be honest I have 8 fake cells intended to make 2 battery packs, but I don't dare to make it.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Also while the printed labels on the newer protected cells seem to be a bit more blurry than the older models which I believe to be genuine, based on their discharge, the stamped codes on the - ends are a lot more clear. Fonts are the same so am guessing differences are simply a result of high speed processing. Think it’s more likely the complete absence of codes on the fakes that give them away.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

No, I have fake cells with codes printed. They are just on the other side so not seen on my picture. Also fonts are not the same. Take a good look. On fakes cells font is more narrow. Just a little, but spacing is smaller. Word "WARNING" is more emphized. At least with mine cells.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

ledoman said:


> Sorry to say, but your new protected cells are fakes. No I don't check for stamped codes. Some indications I've found on mine and also presented on yours:
> 
> 
> nicer more clear font on fake cells
> ...


Actually to my eyes the older ones I have read

Warning :Battery

While the new ones go

Warning: Battery

which is actually more correct. Isn't it possible that Panasonic simply addressed the original printing error over time? I mean they have to reset the presses occasionally because of wear. Seems like a detail that the fakes would more likely overlook. And it's not as though they would try duplicating the text themselves, they'd just photo copy whatever was on the original Panasonic label.

Perhaps the wrinkled wrappers are an indicator but couldn't that be a result of adding the protection layer, which has to be shrink wrapped over the original?

Welded cells in Kaidomain's packs that I've disassembled don't have any 3D codebar either, do you think those are fakes too? Am guessing those markers are just applied to batteries marketed for individual retail sale, they wouldn't bother applying them to bulk orders say like what Tesla uses - there wouldn't be any point, just an unnecessary expense. Likewise Panasonic sells these cells wholesale to the Chinese factory that adds the protection, they aren't table fruit.

Real test will be fully discharging from a TrustFire box and recharging on my XTAR, which measures the mAh. Will take some time of course, will report back with results.

Thanks ledoman!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Based on font spacing on fakes there is space on both side of ":".

No way Panasonic has changed wrapping. See my discharge graph:








Cells are undoubtly different. Your test with only mAh measurment won't tell you cell is geniue or not. There is quite some cells with similar capacity but different discharge curve. And you need to compare cells at same load and same temperature.

Wrinkled wrapper shows wrapping has been done manualy or with some hand tool not with proffesional equipment. In fact you can do it by yourself. Just buy something from here https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32877627620.html and you'll get any "genuie" cell you want, #14 for example.









Do you still hope you have geniue cells, I don't. Sorry ....

Under the line I've quited buying cells from China. Instead since I'm in EU I'm buying from NKON.NL


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

PS. I've found even better example with quite clear pictures. See https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32796417919.html

You can compare thise wrappings with yours and see spacing around the collon " : "


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

ledoman, do you really think the fake manufacturers bother to set the type themselves? 

I’m sure they just copy the text images from genuine articles, otherwise they’d be introducing a host of other errors which would be dead simple to spot. English is not their forte. 

But I concur the wrinkled wrapping is most likely a sign of fakery. Unless it has something to do with the application of the clear coat that bonds on the protection circuitry, which of course is not performed by Panasonic.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Well, there are not "manufacturers" but rather rewrapers shop getting cheap cells from some source. They print with font they have found at hand and most similar. I'm clearly distinguish between them.

If you take quite some time you can read thread about fake cells -> Massive fraud on 18650s in the Littokala Aliexpress stores! | BudgetLightForum.com

Panasonic are not only cells they fake....

PS. Found same collon spacing on geniue GA cells as we can see on ours. Source Liionwholesale in US


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Ledoman those Lionwholesale batteries say right on the label MADE IN CHINA.
What assurance do you have that they will need the same standards as the Panasonics made in Japan?

Oh and by “manufacturers” I meant of the wrappers, I know they’re not the ones who supply the batteries.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Obviously you read smal part of the thread I've linked. There are many other fake cells described....

You still don't want to believe you have fake cells, right? Are you willing to remove the wrapping on one of them? 
I've just made it with one of mine. Found rusted top with five legs while geniue has only three. No markings on cell body. 100% fake, no doubt. I'm prety shure it's same with yours. Or like this: Massive fraud on 18650s in the Littokala Aliexpress stores! | BudgetLightForum.com

See pictures of geniue cells for comparation: https://liionwholesale.com/collecti...ne-tested-6-8a-3400mah-flat-top-wholesale-lot


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Ledoman I agree that my cells are most likely fake. My point is that you can’t tell exclusively from the printing on the plastic wrappers as those will certainly vary in the course of time and from plant to plant — as you certainly know, Panasonic has many factories in Japan alone. 

And of course I’m aware of the prevalence of the fakes on Ali and elsewhere. But most of those are real garbage, they don’t come close to the performance of Panasonic/Sanyos. I’ve had my Cree XHP70.2 outside running on Medium for a few hours already on just two of the fakes inside that little reverse-contact Fenix case and while the lamp’s indicator has gone red the light is still blinding on all three levels. So as long as the cells charge close to 3400mAh and last a few years I’ll be happy. 

Right now there are a lot of $5 18650, 3400mAh cells on eBay but that’s what I paid for my genuine Pannies just a couple years ago before they disappeared from the American market. Perhaps the current low prices reflect widespread fraud, or maybe the 18650 format is simply being obsolesced in favor of the new 21700, 5000mAh Li-ions and there’s this giant clearance sale on the legacy 18650 batteries. Meanwhile those 5000mAh units sell for around $20 a piece, no thanks.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

I hope the guys building the fake cells aren't reading this thread because all the tips on how to make them look perfect are here.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

znomit said:


> I hope the guys building the fake cells aren't reading this thread because all the tips on how to make them look perfect are here.


Well they could only look perfect if they were perfect. 



ledoman said:


> Are you willing to remove the wrapping on one of them?
> I've just made it with one of mine. Found rusted top with five legs while geniue has only three. No markings on cell body. 100% fake, no doubt.


Ledoman I couldn't get off the button cap to count the legs on top of the original cell, it's stuck on real tight. But there was no rust on the rest of the unit, just some ugly soldering flux residue. Do you recognize the markings on the body?









Thanks!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Andy, no I don't recognize your cells, but are different than mine. To bad you can't remove button top. Maybe you can try to use knife or something similar.

Top on my fake one has 5 legs while geniue has 3:








Cell has no markings whatsoever:







Please notice smooth 2mm ring at right side which can be detected through wrapping.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Well ledoman, they turned out to have four legs, so that must put them half way between genuine and fake. 









Ones I cannibalized from Kaidomain welded packs have three legs like you said the genuine Panasonics do, QR codes and other numerical info printed on them which I guess must have matched that on the wrappers.

















Oh well. Will have to test out these new fakes in real time to see how they compare with the genuine articles.

Thanks again!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Andy, yes here we go with cells from China. Good to see you have found difference fakes vs geniue. This also proves Kaidomain played fair game using geniue cells. Well, the price reflect that.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Well ledoman the price on KD is really very low compared to other vendors‘ offers on similar capacity packs, their profit margin must be razor thin. 

Thanks for the link to LiionWholesale.com. Ordered a dozen NCR18650B 3400mAh Flat Tops from them at a lower price than the fakes on eBay. Selected “SLOW Low Cost Shipping” and despite the intervening Thanksgiving holiday the package arrived this very morning at my local post office, will be delivered tomorrow!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Great, check their wrapping and legs. You should know most details by now 

Suggestion for the next time. For nearly same price you can get somewhat better SAMSUNG 35E. Besides capacity voltage curve is importantly higher than at NCR18650B.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks ledoman! 

Have had terrible experiences with Samsung appliances and service which is why I went with the Panasonics instead. Also the Pannies are manufactured in Japan where the environmental regulations are [supposedly] stricter.

But took your advice anyway and just ordered a nice bunch of 35E. Will do some real time/observational side by side comparisons with the NCR18650B using the same 6-cell TF battery cases and KD BL2S lamps (because they're the only ones in my inventory of which I own exact duplicates). Ultimate use would be for for my Ituo XP3 and KD BL70S lamps as they are the most demanding.

Will draw up results next opportunity I get. Will probably be a while because winter weather has just set in and I'm a wuss about riding below 40º F for any appreciable length of time. 

P.S.: How many legs on top of a genuine Samsung?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

As I can see it also has 3 legs on top.
https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung INR18650-35E 3500mAh (Pink) UK.html


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks ledoman great info there! :thumbsup:


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I know, I often use it, specialy his comparator: https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650comparator.php


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Yeah that’s what I was looking at, very clever interface!


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

4000 mAh 18650, is that really possible?
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

I'll call your 4000 and raise you a thousand.....

https://bkcdirect.com/products/2pcs...g0ddm37uLsuHI_-SUHaSKpzPL3qGw0wRoCeV0QAvD_BwE

As with all Chinese POS stuff, they will claim anything if it might help make a sale.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Vancbiker said:


> I'll call your 4000 and raise you a thousand.....
> 
> https://bkcdirect.com/products/2pcs...g0ddm37uLsuHI_-SUHaSKpzPL3qGw0wRoCeV0QAvD_BwE
> 
> As with all Chinese POS stuff, they will claim anything if it might help make a sale.


I don't follow battery technology improvements very closely so I thought I should ask. I think I would have been more surprised if it actually was a true rating!
Mole


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

*Beat ya*

Find it all on eBay!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20X-UltraF...a=0&pg=2386202&_trksid=p2386202.c100677.m4598


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

You'd never see them for 4 for $9.99 either!

I've been out of the loop on the latest tech for awhile now too. It seems the best highest capacity cells now are 3500mAh: the Samsung 35E (found here) and the Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA (found here). I'm still using LG MJ1's (3500mAh), but Mountain doesn't sell them anymore. I see "Liion Wholesale" has unprotected ones (here - cheap) and even with tabs for DIY pack building! (here). Liion Wholesale is the real deal by the way - well recommended seller. I got my IMR 18350's from there.

I use the LG's in my Fenix 2 cell case for my helmet light and my bar light is powered by my 2S3P (6 cell) DIY pack built with the NCR18650BE 3200mAh cells.

-Garry


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## lostplaces (Aug 21, 2019)

garrybunk said:


> Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA (found here).


the best allround type for year now.
high voltage across the full discharge, chemistry holds alot more chycles then LG or samsung stuff.
in coller conditions also a good overall performance.

in all abilitys LG MJ1 or 35E are junk against it.

preffer it against all other typess what i have used last years.

only in High drain or ultracold conditions the 30Q from samsung is the way to go.

the only battery what i not have checked in all details is the LG INR18650M36, but i dont think ist a good type to.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

lostplaces said:


> the best allround type for year now.
> high voltage across the full discharge, chemistry holds alot more chycles then LG or samsung stuff.
> in coller conditions also a good overall performance.
> 
> ...


( @lostplaces; regarding your comparison to the Panasonic 18650GA's )...

While I don't own any of the Pansonic 18650GA's , I don't think I'd venture to call any 18650 cell that can provide over a real 3200mAh capacity as "Junk". Junk is just too strong a word. I own more than a few of the LG MJ1's ( 3500mAh ) and they are very good 18650's. If the Panasonic GA's are better, fine, I can't argue against that because I don't own any of those but that doesn't make other brands total junk. Many manufacturers of Laptop computers have used LG cells for years. I figure they do this because the cells are decent and reliable.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Gotta remember that mr lost only understands......

1. His favorite
2. Junk

He missed out on words like decent, good, reasonable, and others in his ESL classes.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Well, I agree Sanyo NCR18650GA are one of the best cells around, but LG MJ1 and Samsung 35E are quite close. Far away being junk against them. At lower currents up to 2A Samsung 35E is even better giving little more runtime. GA is getting stronger at higher currents we mostly don't use with MTBR lights. Ok, it may have more advantage at lower temperatures.

Right now I can't find review of Russian fellow who tested all three agains each other. But HKJ's comparator is giving good view between the two at current we mostly use.








Source: https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650comparator.php


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Also ledoman, if one were using a multipack of 4 or more cells wouldn't that divide the current between the number of pairs? Which would mean when running a typical 2A bike lamp from a TrustFire 6-pack power bank each pair is only having to put out .66A, if I'm not mistaken (okay I usually am.)

The comparator does not display that exact value but at 1A and .5A the comparison is even more obviously in the favor of Samsung.









Of course the Sanyo still might have an advantage in number of possible charge cycles, can't find that info anywhere.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Andy you are almost wright (this time  ) At 6 pack 0.66A would be drawn from single cell not single pair (unless you count pairs in series which doesn't change current). 
Current is divided between all cels in parallel so with 2S3P setup your thinking was wright, just wrong wording.

With tipical 4 cells pack 2A light would draw 1A from single cell which is pretty low for 10A capable cells we are discussing.

Number of cycles is not so important unless you are very frequent user. If you ride once a week then you'll get 50 usage per year or 10 years of usage (given the cells can do tipical 500 *full *cycles). For lifespan in our case is more important how you treat your cells (storing at 40%, not to full discharge or full charge). Having higher capacity means you more likely won't fully discharge cells unless you start using very powerful lights of course, but then you add more cells.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks for that clarification, ledoman. 

Of course commuters will ride a lot more than once a week though usually their trips are relatively short; 45 minutes would be considered a long time.

I probably spend more time on my bikes than most commuters or mtbers, and it takes me around two to three hours to get home at night. Running my lamps on medium I can just about eek out three rides on my Ituo XP3, while the packs on my XP2, BT40S, Yinding and KDLITKERs are good for a couple more rides than that. Because it is bad for Li-Ions to charge cold, I keep two sets of cells for each power bank so as to always have one ready for use while the other warms back up to room temperature.

Just got some new XTAR VC4S chargers that have a dedicated storage setting, think it leaves cells at 3.7V, will have to check. Also supposedly has the ability to measure true capacity though I haven’t yet figured out how to obtain those measurements, the instructions are all in Chinglish. Will be interesting to compare the Samsung 35Es I ordered upon your advice from LionWholesalers with the fake Panasonics from eBay. Yeah I know capacity doesn’t tell you everything but it certainly tells you something!


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## lostplaces (Aug 21, 2019)

ledoman said:


> Well, I agree Sanyo NCR18650GA are one of the best cells around, but LG MJ1 and Samsung 35E are quite close.


I am not talk about 1 discharge test from a new buyed battery in a warm room.
I am talk about long therm use what includes wear and aging over years.
Only there batterys show chlearly what they are and huge diffrences across the types can be chlearly seen.

take the Mj1 for example, use it for 100-150 times in ~4-6 months and make a internal resistance check and capacity check, it increases alot and loose to much.

if you compare after same real world use cycles the GA near not increased.
the GA have a *much higher* durability and the chemistry a lower aging speed.

LG have overall problems with the chemistrys what they use in some of there batterys and there aging.
not only the MJ1

or try the GA and the MJ1 in cooler conditions ~0C and below and you see what the GA can do and the MJ1 not able to to it.

i use now for a while the 20700B to and it looks like the same performance with same great abilities, so its possible it have same chemistry mix in it.

the real world performance and durability in loing therns abuse/use of the GA is the interessting point for users, and thats why i recommend the GA.

1 time discharge tests are not the big deal on information about batterys differences.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

OK, found what wanted to point to: https://www.thunderheartreviews.com/2018/08/3500mah-18650-li-ion-cells-discharge.html

@lostplaces: might be, but I don't have any article or anything to prove it. So I can only talk about measurments of new cells. Do you have any data on Samsung 35E durability and IR after some time?


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Quick ? I have 2 of those 6800 4 cell 18650's Panasonic and one seems to just stay on the charger and never turns green on the charger now. Last time I had this happen to a battery it quit working all together very shortly after that. I unplugged it and am now charging it again to see if it will turn green. If not what would the possible issue be. It does charge the other 6800 I have and turns green as normal.

Thx

MB


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

MB can you be more specific. Do you have battery packs from Kaidomain or from some other source? 

Using Digital Multimeter to measure voltages of charger and battery pack would be helpful too. 

Can you check temperature of cells? If they are warm, then is very likely internal resistance got high and all energy goes into heating instead of storing.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

ledoman said:


> MB can you be more specific. Do you have battery packs from Kaidomain or from some other source?
> 
> Using Digital Multimeter to measure voltages of charger and battery pack would be helpful too.
> 
> Can you check temperature of cells? If they are warm, then is very likely internal resistance got high and all energy goes into heating instead of storing.


Hey Ledo, it charged overnight and never turned green but I unplugged it this AM and just got home and now it's green as normal. Works as well. Will be testing it tonight tho on a ride.

They're the 6800 packs from Ituo XP3 which I thought were Panasonic's. They were at room temp however, they have that thick cover which may have heated the cells, not sure. Maybe I should start charging them w/o the cover on.

Thx


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

I’ve had problems with both my Ituo 6800mAh packs. First one came with broken wires inside the cable right at the jack so could neither take a charge nor power a light; replacement pack only ran for 45 minutes on Medium. Resoldered a new lead to the first and now it works but still have no idea how to salvage the replacement unit other than to cannibalize it for the individual cells. 

Hope you have better luck with yours, mb.


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## lostplaces (Aug 21, 2019)

ledoman said:


> @lostplaces: might be, but I don't have any article or anything to prove it.


About long therms results you qill find nowhere articles for any cell typ.
you think a private person will waste years only to use a bunch of cell under different conditions, with different charge and discharge currents to compare battery builds and chemistrys in any detail.

i play with them for 15 years now also coz its a little bit a part off my job.
i have buy for example this year ~200 batterys make battery packs for friends the the much stays by me and i use them in different conditions and check for my own interest the the full aiging of all off them to know what batterys i can buy and what is wastet money.
i use li-ion for alot of private aplications and its importand to know that.
if i make for example a 300 battery powerwall for a friend i will not waste money for the wrong battery, he will use it for 5-10 years without dieing cells.

only for examples i buy this year ~10 months ago LG -M29 and -M36 and 10 months later the M36 have a very abused stats, but the M29 looks still good.

or the last two years become for the 21700 types.
this year i buy alot of the redesign samsung 30T=40T and comparing it with the 21700B from sanyo now for ~ 6 months and the 21700B looks to be the better battery.

or another example many years alot companys make battery packs with the panasonic18650b, yes this battery is ok for powerbank to use in rooms.
but outdoor in cool conditions used" discharged" this cemistry wears very fast and if u used this pack more the 1 time every week the pack will be for the garbage can in 2 years.
this batttery is no deal for outdoor and cooler conditions use.
so why companys make packs with it?

i cost alot of private time to clearly find out how batterys will perform in real world use and over time the real ageing looks like for ea chemistry design of ea cell type!
and thats the reason will you never will find a article on that.

the only think what you will find in the net is quick and dirty to do stuff like 1 time charge and discharge tests of a new buyed battery.

and exaclty that is not a very ineresting part of batterys coz alot of them change there charge and discharge abilitys alot afther some months in real use!!!

in our german form 2 members make for themself tabels with internal resitance and discharge capacity for ~50 batterys for years now and recheck it and recheck it every 6 months but if some of the batterys not in real use you will not clearly see aging od the chemistrys.

i do it on another way, buy sometimes 2-3 batterys types, and use them 6-12 months near the same way and recheck it after this time to see clear.

and the recomandation for the 18650GA comes from a compare over some years with ~9 other battery types.
this battery delivers the best overall performance in the 3000mah 18650 battery range, thats why i recomend it for packs to.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

MB and Andy, checking voltage after full charge might tell something about pack being unbalanced. Othervise there is no way to tell what's going on but unwrap pack and measure voltage of cells for the beginning. Further you would need to discharge each pair of cells to see their capacity. It can be done at once with some (more or less accurate) hobby charger.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

@lostplaces, I undrestand and more or less agree. Some people look more on price than on quality and for some it's good enough. It depends.....

Can you share your findings and comparations about cells you have checked over the time? It would help us to understand not only which is the best, but also how some others behave and what can we expect on long term. If you can make some table with different cells and few most important atributes....


----------



## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I think the Panasonic NCR18650B got very popular and that's why companies are building packs with it - because if the user is going to recognize any 18650 battery, they'll probably recognize that one. I've never been extremely fond of that cell due to it's voltage sag and I don't own any of them.

I've not done any testing on my LG MJ1's, but they're still going strong 4 years later. I don't use them much at all, but frequently store them at or near full charge. Maybe I should do a discharge test just to check them out and see where they're at.

-Garry


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

ledoman, my new XTAR VC4S has the ability both to measure voltage and test capacity -but only of individual cells, of course. Seeing as I have some spare TrustFire powerbanks, figure will be worth it just to completely disassemble the faulty Ituo pack and grade the individual cells.

Meanwhile, am grading the leftover PANASONIC NCR18650B 6.8A flat tops from a 10200mAh KD battery pack I've already taken apart. So far they are looking pretty good for the two years of abuse I've put them through, are already far ahead of the eBay fakes which finished charging only to between [roughly] 1/3 and 1/2 of stated capacity. Will report back with final results on both the KD Pannies and half a dozen of identical ones I'd purchased loose, once they've all been graded. But this might take a while.


----------



## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Andy, grading single cells would be nice. Still I recomend tu buy some 10$ DMM to measure voltages before full tearing down to single cells. It might tell you something and you can balance or test them even with your XTAR VC4S. Just use home made dummy cell with crocodile clips on wires hanging out of it. Then you connect clips to any pair (or parallel set) and charge or discharge/test. Very simple when you can solve some anomalies before cutting all apart.


----------



## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

I don’t understand, ledoman. Since my XTAR can only charge individual cells up to 4.2V, how could it balance pairs in the welded cases that combine to 8.4V?

Anyway, much easier for me just to tear apart the Ituo than to order a DMM, set up dummy cells and somehow attach wires and clips. Plus this way I can incorporate the freed up cells to TrustFire 6-pack power banks, which guarantee me three hours of run time with my most powerful lamps on High. Already have enough welded four packs, and can put the Ituo’s neoprene wrap to good use on the 2S2P BAK pack I still have from my BT40S, whose denier cordura cover was never so good.


----------



## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

andychrist said:


> I don't understand, ledoman. Since my XTAR can only charge individual cells up to 4.2V, how could it balance pairs in the welded cases that combine to 8.4V?


A picture is worth a thousand words! 









That's a piece of wooden dowel I used. I crimped ring terminals to some scrap wire (be sure to use a decent gauge wire) and then screwed the terminals to the dowel. Just be sure you clip the alligator clips with the correct polarity on the "pair" of cells in the pack. As you can see, you can then test capacity of the pair and also "balance" each pair by charging each pair separately. Very very simple to do!

-Garry


----------



## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Oh, so you are charging two cells in parallel at a time, rather than two in series, is that right? Sorry but I can’t make out the details of all the connections from that photo.

Still think I’ll just cannibalize my Ituo for the individual cells, makes it easier to charge them all at once. Have three XTAR VC4S so can handle a dozen cells at a time for the two TrustFire powerbanks I’ve reserved for my new lawn mower.  Have already transferred the more valuable neoprene/Velcro cover to the BT40S’ BAK pack, makes it a lot easier to use. So not really suffering anything in the way of a loss this way.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

That's correct, the cells being charged are in parallel. To clarify (for benefit of anyone else reading this), with cells in parallel voltage remains the same while capacity doubles (well this assumes identical cells). So when doing a capacity test like this, you need to divide by two (in this case it's 2 cells in parallel) to check individual cell capacity. To continue the clarification, with cells in series voltage adds up, but capacity remains the same. 

-Garry.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

And to further clarify the clarification, charging cells in series does not balance them but when in parallel it does. That’s why if cells are unbalanced inside an SP pack, they won’t get balanced through normal charging with a Magicshine connection. Taking apart my KD 6-packs, was shocked to find how unbalanced they’d become when I inserted them into the XTARs. Another reason to use the TrustFire power banks rather than welded packs, so you can easily rebalance from time to time.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

*eBay v KD: Panasonic NCR18650B 3400mAh Flat Top Battery*

These are the first couple pairs I tried out on Grade mode in the XTAR VC4S.

New eBay Fake [protected] Panasonic NCR18650B 3400mAh Flat Tops.








Genuine [unwrapped] Panasonics from KD welded 6-packs, between two and three years old.








So the eBay fakes are crap right off the bat, varying widely in capacity.

Genuine Panasonics no longer all that close to original 3400mAh nominal capacity but still each a hair over 3000.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Okay another stupid question for garrybunk and/or ledoman:

Using that method of charging parallel pairs of cells in welded packs, would it be possible to charge multiple pairs at once using additional dummy cells etc in the XTAR? Because that way you could even balance an entire eight pack of welded cells like Kaidomain’s 18650B2S4P 7.4V 13600MAH 8 X NCR18650B in one go.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Sure why not. Your just treating them like individual cells being charged; there is no connection between the multiple pairs being charged. Just be very careful with your connections that you get them correct.

-Garry


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Ok, took the battery pack out Wed eve and used the pack on my BL70. Used it for at least 2 hours on med and hi, mostly hi and never turned red. Connected it when I got home to my Ituo XP3 and turned it on hi and was still green so it seems ok now. Ledo may have been right about the heat. I'll charge them w/ the cover off from here on out. More to follow tho. BTW, i had the BL70 on hi for long periods and it never got real hot. Just warm and the temp was at least in the mid 50's.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

andychrist said:


> Okay another stupid question for garrybunk and/or ledoman:
> 
> Using that method of charging parallel pairs of cells in welded packs, would it be possible to charge multiple pairs at once using additional dummy cells etc in the XTAR? Because that way you could even balance an entire eight pack of welded cells like Kaidomain's 18650B2S4P 7.4V 13600MAH 8 X NCR18650B in one go.


I'm not shure, but I would do it one by one since negative pole might be common for all channels. Doing all at once might cause a short and destroying something. But it also depends on internal construction of charger (if the cahnnels have diode to prevent wrong polarity).


----------



## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks ledoman. Once opened it should be possible to examine how all the individual cells are connected. And pretty sure the XTARs are protected against reverse polarity.

But will most likely just continue with my plan to disassemble the faulty packs for use in my TrustFire 6-cell powerbanks. Advantage is that not only can I rebalance the cells that way each time I recharge in the XTAR, but the new VC4S has a Storage function as well. So whenever the weather forecast contraindicates riding for an extended period the batteries can be left at 3.7V. Would be a real PITA to attempt this one pair at a time with dummy cells and alligator clips, is quite a lengthy process already with three of these new chargers. (Am using two or three battery packs on each bike.)


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

I have a battery pack that is just in the standard blue shrink. 

Any reason I can't use flex seal to waterproof the pack?


----------



## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

mestapho said:


> I have a battery pack that is just in the standard blue shrink.
> 
> Any reason I can't use flex seal to waterproof the pack?


Should be good to go :thumbsup:

A little tip (at least for Plasti-Dip) - don't shake the can. Open up the can, stir it up real good and let it sit for a few days. This will help reduce all the air bubble and give you a nice smooth finish.

****


----------



## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

scar said:


> Should be good to go :thumbsup:
> 
> A little tip (at least for Plasti-Dip) - don't shake the can. Open up the can, stir it up real good and let it sit for a few days. This will help reduce all the air bubble and give you a nice smooth finish.
> 
> ****


I have most of a quart of flex seal sitting in the garage from another project. Think I'll just dunk the pack and hang it to dry for a few days


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

scar said:


> Should be good to go :thumbsup:
> 
> A little tip (at least for Plasti-Dip) - don't shake the can. Open up the can, stir it up real good and let it sit for a few days. This will help reduce all the air bubble and give you a nice smooth finish.
> 
> ****


Do you wrap the pack with anything to make it safer to cut it open later?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Is this configuration (+ & - at one end) so unusual that Moon would be the only place to source these 18650 batteries that came with my Meteor Storm Pro?
Mole


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

I've heard such batteries exist, but haven't ever seen them before...


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Never seen that configuration before. Just looks like a custom protection circuit to form those contact points. 

-Garry


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

*Need I say more?*

The 18650 Battery Store alerted me to a sale they were having on their LG F1L 18650 3350mAh 4.87A - Protected Button Top Battery, only $3 a piece, so I ordered half a dozen as spares for my pair of Sofirn SP36 BLF Andurils that take button tops.

They arrived quickly and undamaged, but with a big Warning on their shrink wraps:










Kinda ironic as they're protected cells, too.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Hmm . . . interesting. And how do they differ from cells actually intended for consumer use? 

-Garry


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

andychrist said:


> Kinda ironic as they're protected cells, too.


That label.......ironic doesn't quite say it. I could understand a warning label, that's fine but that last sentence, _" If you can see this label do not use this battery". !!!_ What the F*** were they smoking when they thought to add that to the warning. :idea: As I ponder this thought a funny Forest Gump quote just popped into my head. _What was it now,...."Stupid is as stupid does"..._

Now as funny as this is, seriously... I don't think I'd be buying batteries that had labels that said something like that written on it. It's just too weird.* @ A/C*, I know the prices are low but do you think using or buying batteries from a place that would print something like that on the wrapper on the cell would be a good place to buy batteries? Maybe it's just me but I don't think an original manufacturer would print something like that on the wrapper on their batteries. I've gotten some newer batteries and I've never seen anything like that before. If it were me I'd be asking the seller a lot of questions.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I'm in doubt if those cells are legit anyway. Specialy if I compare with my trusted source NKON.NL.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Well it's kinda unimaginable that a fraudulent vendor would affix a label warning consumers away from using their product. "If you can see this label do NOT use this battery" reminds _me_ of the command printed on fruit juice containers: "Do not use if seal is broken." Oh dang, just broke the seal, now I can't drink any! 

Am guessing that these are the cells used in LG's Home Battery which is likely serviceable only by a technician, so they're not intended for individual retail sale (if any LI-ion batteries really even are.)

Have never had a problem with cells ordered from the 18650 Battery store, they do have reasonable prices/delivery fees. Even their battery cases feel high quality, unlike the cheap ones used by the fraudsters that crack right away. Six Sanyo Button Tops I first got for my Sofirns were certainly legit - kinda pricey at $7 apiece but still beat the competition, as did the pair of Vapcells.

Anyway I charged the new LGs on the XTAR VC4S and they seemed perfectly up to spec so am not worried. Next time my 3500mAh Sanyos run down will give these a whirl to get a more empirical idea of their performance.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

garrybunk said:


> Hmm . . . interesting. And how do they differ from cells actually intended for consumer use?
> 
> -Garry


LGchem's position is that cylindrical cells are meant only to be built into packs with appropriate protection circuitry and no cylindrical cell is appropriate for consumer use unless built into a higher assembly.

Takes a bit of digging but if you wander through the LGChem.com website you will find some page regarding their position on bare cells.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Anybody know if Panasonic's or Sanyo 21700 cell packs are available yet, either 4 or 6 cell?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Haven't seen that yet, but you may contact Hank at eBay to make one:
A-OK battery | eBay Stores

Why would you like to have 21700 cells pack?


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

ledoman said:


> Why would you like to have 21700 cells pack?


5000mAh 2pack comes to mind.... https://www.18650batterystore.com/21700-p/samsung-50e.htm


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

mb323323 said:


> Anybody know if Panasonic's or Sanyo 21700 cell packs are available yet, either 4 or 6 cell?


The only 21700 packs I've found are the Gemini packs at Action Led. No idea what cells are in them.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Haven't seen that yet, but you may contact Hank at eBay to make one:
> A-OK battery | eBay Stores
> 
> Why would you like to have 21700 cells pack?


For me the big advantage would be larger capacity without jumping up to a four cell pack. The chemistry would also be newer so cold weather performance should be better as well.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Ok, I understand it for 2 cell pack, maybe 4 cell , but 6 cell pack with 21700 would be probably overkill.

Don't know if it was discussed here:

*Tesla *is planning to use *4680*(0) cells and to produce them by theirself. Besides obvious bigger capacity for us is important the way how the cathode and anode is made. Instead of single tab on each side which makes bottleneck for electrons to flow there will be bunch of tabs.

This inovation makes possible to use much higher current to charge/discharge which shorten time to charge and I'm shure it will have less internal resistance and be much more usable in cold weather.









Video stream of their Battery Day 




So 2 big cell battery packs might be the future in a few years.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

mb323323 said:


> Anybody know if Panasonic's or Sanyo 21700 cell packs are available yet, either 4 or 6 cell?


I've been waiting for those since 21700 cells first became widely available. I would love to have a 2 cell ( in series ) pack. Even better a two 21700 _cell holder_ ( in series )....and if you are one of these people with the 3000+ lumen bike lights a 4 cell holder ( 2S/2P ) would be perfect.

With the popularity of 21700 torches and batteries being as they are, you would think that the Chinese would of had 21700 holders by now.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Haven't seen that yet, but you may contact Hank at eBay to make one:
> A-OK battery | eBay Stores
> 
> Why would you like to have 21700 cells pack?


I just sent an email off to Hunk Lee ( fma_battery ) asking if he can build bike battery packs using 21700 cells. I asked him this years ago when the cells were first coming out but he knew nothing about that size battery. Since this size battery has been around a while now I'm hoping he is willing to work with them and has some in stock. BTW I also mentioned that other people are looking for the same thing so hopefully I'll get some positive feedback.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> I've been waiting for those since 21700 cells first became widely available. I would love to have a 2 cell ( in series ) pack. Even better a two 21700 _cell holder_ ( in series )....and if you are one of these people with the 3000+ lumen bike lights a 4 cell holder ( 2S/2P ) would be perfect.
> 
> With the popularity of 21700 torches and batteries being as they are, you would think that the Chinese would of had 21700 holders by now.


I keep looking for them on aliexpress but can't find anything. They're starting to use 21700's in cordless tools. I'm thinking about building my own battery packs. They have cheap battery spot welders that use a car battery as a power source and the battery protection boards are readily available. Just need to find some kind of waterproof case to protect them.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

arc said:


> I keep looking for them on aliexpress but can't find anything. They're starting to use 21700's in cordless tools. I'm thinking about building my own battery packs. They have cheap battery spot welders that use a car battery as a power source and the battery protection boards are readily available. Just need to find some kind of waterproof case to protect them.


Well you did say ActionLED had a couple 21700 Gemini battery packs and I just checked and yes you are right. $70 for the 4000mAh 2-cell but if you build your own you can use cells with higher capacity. That would seem to be the better way to go and cost a whole lot less.

*GREAT NEWS!!*....Hunk Lee just got back to me. ( link > ) *He has the goods!* If you go with the Samsung 50E you are getting two 21700 5000mAh batteries in series ( 10A max continuous ). Not that I'm in dire need of one at this time but at the price he offers I figure why wait so I ordered one. He probably has 4 cells too but I didn't ask about those.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> Well you did say ActionLED had a couple 21700 Gemini battery packs and I just checked and yes you are right. $70 for the 4000mAh 2-cell but if you build your own you can use cells with higher capacity. That would seem to be the better way to go and cost a whole lot less.
> 
> *GREAT NEWS!!*....Hunk Lee just got back to me. ( link > ) *He has the goods!* If you go with the Samsung 50E you are getting two 21700 5000mAh batteries in series ( 10A max continuous ). Not that I'm in dire need of one at this time but at the price he offers I figure why wait so I ordered one. He probably has 4 cells too but I didn't ask about those.


That pack still needs waterproofing and impact protection. How would someone do that?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

arc said:


> That pack still needs waterproofing and impact protection. How would someone do that?


As for me I guess I'm lucky. I have a old neoprene 2 cell ( designed for 18650s' ) holder that is big enough ( and stretchy enough ) to hold 2 - 21700 cells without any problem ( and yes I did test it ). I also have another two cell 18650 ( cloth ) holder that I use with my MTB. The top on that one closes with a top overlapping flap with Velcro on one side. It should stretch enough to fit 21700's but will be a tight fit. Just now tested that one with 2-21700's and it will be a tight fit but hopefully it will work. Now where I got the cloth holder I can't remember. Pretty sure though that it wasn't designed to hold batteries. The neoprene one came with a two cell rear light from the old rear Xeccon light set I have that I no longer use. The cloth one I use on my MTB. I mount it under my stem and use half inch foam weather stripping to absorb any shock. Works like a charm.

I'm pretty sure the cloth pack is not waterproof and the 18650 Hunk Lee 2-cell it currently holds has been in there for years. Although I rarely get caught in rain when mountain biking I'm pretty sure it must of gotten wet a time or two. The shrink wrap used on the Hunk Lee packs don't cover the entire pack. That said shouldn't be hard to seal it up using some electrical tape. Of course there are other options for waterproofing ( Plastic Dip or one of the Flex Seal products ). On my road setup I use a 2-cell Gemini battery that is sealed in plastic so no worries with that one.
Just did a search on Amazon and saw these. ( edit...oh heck. that holder is designed to hold two "separate" cells. Need to keep looking )


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Cat-man-do said:


> I just sent an email off to Hunk Lee ( fma_battery ) asking if he can build bike battery packs using 21700 cells. I asked him this years ago when the cells were first coming out but he knew nothing about that size battery. Since this size battery has been around a while now I'm hoping he is willing to work with them and has some in stock. BTW I also mentioned that other people are looking for the same thing so hopefully I'll get some positive feedback.


Thx Cat.

Yes my nite rides can be 3-4 hours sometimes and I'd like to blast the XP3's on high. Where I'm at nites are fairly comfortable in Winter especially since it doesn't seem to rain anymore so I figure I might as well make something good of a bad situation although I'd trade nice nite rides all day long (pardon the bad pun) for some heavy rain storms.

I'm assuming the packs he makes would have the correct connectors to fit the Ituo line.

Thx again.


----------



## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

arc said:


> That pack still needs waterproofing and impact protection. How would someone do that?


plastidip spray works pretty well too.

I've also used Self Fusing Silicon Tape in the past.


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> ....Hunk Lee just got back to me. ( link > ) *He has the goods!*


Cat, Thanx for pinging him!

Just ordered 2 x Samsung 50E two cell packs.

Only 3 weeks til time change.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

mb323323 said:


> Thx Cat.
> 
> Yes my nite rides can be 3-4 hours sometimes and I'd like to blast the XP3's on high. Where I'm at nites are fairly comfortable in Winter especially since it doesn't seem to rain anymore so I figure I might as well make something good of a bad situation although I'd trade nice nite rides all day long (pardon the bad pun) for some heavy rain storms.
> 
> ...


Well the one I ordered they call "MagicShine Battery" and the connector looks to have threads on it that should work perfectly with the XP-2 and XP-3. My XP-3 has a threaded sleeve so I'm hoping he sends the right one. He does offer the other version and that is like the other 2-cell I got from him. That battery works with ITUO stuff as well but just doesn't lock in place as well because it's not threaded. Keep in mind you can write him before ordering so you get the one that best serves your purpose. You can also request a longer wire going to the battery if you think you will need a longer wire. The one I currently have ( non-threaded ) I use with my Gloworm lights and it works fine although doesn't have the waterproof rubber boot that goes over the connectors.


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

arc said:


> That pack still needs waterproofing and impact protection. How would someone do that?


FWIW, I've used combination of heat shrink tube, electric tape and this stuff:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Plasti-Dip-Liquid-Electrical-Tape/16888975

One more method: my road bike high-capacity battery is mounted inside water bottle shaped toolbox, with cable passed through special threaded glang like this:
https://hollandbikeshop.com/en-gb/w...ool-bottle/mirage-water-bottle-toolbox-black/
https://www.l-com.com/ethernet-pg-16-liquid-tight-cable-gland

Never had any problems caused by water with my DIY batteries, despite our quite wet & rainy climate.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

I stash my battery packs in Rhinowalk frame bags. Dunno how waterproof they are but certainly highly water resistant. Plus their zipper closures make it a cinch to remove/replace the packs without having to deal with Velcro fasteners/buckles.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BSC7PRR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DPLYFH4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

patski said:


> Cat-man-do said:
> 
> 
> > *GREAT NEWS!!*....Hunk Lee just got back to me. ( link > ) *He has the goods!* If you go with the Samsung 50E you are getting two 21700 5000mAh batteries in series.
> ...


Battery packs arrived yesterday, rode with my Gloworm XS maybe 2hrs tonight after dark, next week will be the real test.









I have lots of cheapo battery sacks from all the money I've wasted on chinois crap.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

If the cell used are really 21700 Samsung 50E, then you should get out aprox. 4500mAh down to 3.0V discharge. 
Over the thumb this would place this pack just half way between 2 and 4 cells pack with 18650. Also the weight is just in the middle. It is good choice for shorter rides in a cold weather as internal resistance should be lower in bigger cells. Compared to 18650 Samsung 35E it has 1/3 lower resistance.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

patski said:


> Battery packs arrived yesterday, rode with my Gloworm XS maybe 2hrs tonight after dark, next week will be the real test.
> 
> View attachment 1373553


Good to hear!! I haven't gotten mine yet but since we're both East coast I should get it either today or tomorrow I would imagine. What kind of connectors did you get?


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Do you think Hunk will be making a 4 cell pack soon?


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

mb323323 said:


> Do you think Hunk will be making a 4 cell pack soon?


I don't see why not. If there's not one listed on his website you can write him to request a 4-cell. He has the batteries, can't see why a 4-cell can't be done.

*BTW, I received my 2-cell 21700 5000mAh 4.2 volt Samsung battery pack today.* :thumbsup: Must of came in the mail after I left for work. Can't wait to try it out with my XP-3. Unfortunately seems to rain almost every weekend where I live. I believe the weatherman said we were expecting 2" of rain in the next few days so not looking good for the weekend.

Last time I went out at night I did a road / MUP ride last Saturday and there was so much leaf cover on the MUP's that it almost looked like I was riding trails. I almost hate to ride dirt trails this time of year because heavy leaf cover tends to hide a lot of bad stuff, especially on the type of trails I generally ride. Anyway, I've got my new battery on the charger. If I can't test on the trails I may try it on some of the MUP's as long as the leaves aren't too wet. ( wet leaves = ice ) Been a while since I've used my XP3. ( mine came with the threaded connector so works perfectly with the XP3 ) _ ( below; local MUP, lights ( torches ) used, Sofirn IF25A on helmet, Fireflies E07 on bars )_


----------



## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> What kind of connectors did you get?


standard plug, snug fit on my Gloworms.



Cat-man-do said:


> mb323323 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think Hunk will be making a 4 cell pack soon?
> ...


Let us know plz.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

patski said:


> standard plug, snug fit on my Gloworms.
> 
> Let us know plz.


Okay, just did you a favor. I sent Hunk a message asking if he can build a 4-cell 21700 battery pack using the Samsungs. I'll let you know what he says when he writes back. ( BTW, you spelled the magic word wrong... )


----------



## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> Okay, just did you a favor. I sent Hunk a message asking if he can build a 4-cell 21700 battery pack using the Samsungs.


Thx!



Cat-man-do said:


> BTW, you spelled the magic word wrong...


Hah, you must be over 50!


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

patski said:


> Thx!
> 
> *Hah, you must be over 50!*


Absolutely!

Yes, Hunk Lee, ( FMA_Battery ) has the 4-cell 21700's.


----------



## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Thx Cat!

Di I want the 50E or the 30T. Not sure what the difference is.

Once I get it I'll charge it, do a run time test on it w/ both the XP-3 on 90% and the BL70 on high and report back. I think since I have 2 XP-3's, I'll test the battery that came w/ it as well, an 18650 4 cell 6800 that seems real good so far. I'll test the run time on each on the BL70 as well. I'll do this in my freezer. LOL It's still only getting into the 50's at nite here so the XP-3's even w/ a fan will overheat I'm afraid. I'll just have to keep an eye on the freezer I guess. LOL


----------



## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

You want 50E of course ie. 5000mAh or you would rather have 3000mAh?


----------



## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

5000

Thx Ledo I guess I didn't read it clear.

Ordering and will report back.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Samsung 30T is very high drain cell for currents up to 35A. Those cells have very low internal resistance and can better operate in cold weather. But I doubt anyone would enjoy cycling in very cold conditions. Samsung 50E is rated for 9.8A. Putting four in a 2S2P setup should behave like two big cells in series with 10000mAh and 20A current.

This is quite some more than tipical pack with 18650 cell we normaly use.

*Cat* since you are in contact can you ask what are characteristics of battery protection citcuit. What is:
- upper charge cut-off voltage limit
- discharge cut-off voltage
- circuit resistance
- upper working current and max peak current
- bleeding current (parasitic drain)
and
- what size nickel stipes he is using for welding
- what size (AWG) are cables


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

mb323323 said:


> Thx Cat!
> 
> Di I want the 50E or the 30T. Not sure what the difference is.
> 
> Once I get it I'll charge it, do a run time test on it w/ both the XP-3 on 90% and the BL70 on high and report back. I think since I have 2 XP-3's, I'll test the battery that came w/ it as well, an 18650 4 cell 6800 that seems real good so far. I'll test the run time on each on the BL70 as well. I'll do this in my freezer. LOL It's still only getting into the 50's at nite here so the XP-3's even w/ a fan will overheat I'm afraid. I'll just have to keep an eye on the freezer I guess. LOL


I think a lot of what you might want would depend on the lamps you intend to power. If you want long run time and are using an ITUO XP3, older Gloworm XS the 50E's would be the way to go. Those are 5000mAh and with a max continuous current of 10A. Two series, two in parallel would net you 10000mAh ( or 10Ah ) and be able to deliver 20A continuous which is way more than your XP3 or XS will need.

Someone else who might be trying to power one of the newer lamps with multiple Cree XHP series LED's might try asking Hunk for Samsung 40T's which can handle 35A continuous. This means they have lower internal resistance and can handle higher current levels better and likely work better in cold weather. The 40T's are 4000mAh ea. Not sure if Hunk has the 40T's but if he did you would have 2S/2P would be 8000mAh. ( the 30T's are same as 40T's only less mAh's.) Of course any lamp that has that many newer LED's would likely have a different connector setup than what comes on the Hunk Lee battery packs.

FWIW I have both Samsung 50E's and 40T's single cells which I use in my torches. When used in my Fireflies E07 ( seven XPL Hi's ) , I don't really see a difference except the 50E's have the larger capacity and will last longer. The 40T only makes a difference if using boost which on torches you really don't use more than a minute at a time anyway without over-heating. Now at some point I'll buy a torch with a single XHP-70.2 LED and then the 40T's might make a difference if using higher outputs ( or in cold weather ).

*@mb323...*: If you are using a 4 cell 18650 6800mAh pack that should be good enough to power an XP3 unless you just want the longest run time you can get.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

If someone is looking for long run times its hard to beat the six and eight cell 18650 Kaidomain packs. The batteries are inside a silicone case and come with a bag with velcro mounting straps. Good waterproofing and mechanical protection. The buyer has to supply the case for the Hunk Lee ones. The cells are probably taped or hot melt glued together, if the pack sees too much physical abuse the glue or battery sleeving will loosen up and then the battery spot welds will become the primary thing holding the cells in place.

If someone wants a two cell pack to mount to their helmet 21700s will have more capacity for a small weight penalty. For cold weather good high current 18650s will probably be just as good as 21700s at the power levels we are using. 

I'm looking to build a 12v pack to be used for bike lights and other uses. Three 21700 40T batteries would be perfect but but finding a good case is hard. Probably going to cannibalize my old six cell Kaidomain pack and buy a new Kaidomain pack for my 2S lights.


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## [email protected] (Jun 13, 2019)

I'm new to this sub-forum and would like to thank those sharing battery info.

I'm curious how everyone is charging their 2S and 2S2P packs and keeping them balanced?

I'll be getting back into night riding after 15 years and plan on purchasing an XSV/X2 combo soon. I noticed Gloworm's wall-wort charger is rated @1.4A. This means their 6800mAh pack will be charging at ~ 0.2C. And if I got the Hunk Lee Samsung 50E 10Ah pack, that would charge at ~ 0.14C. And none of these packs have a balancing harnesses! This is a little bit of a surprise to me since I used to fly electric RC planes and everyone charged their 3S to 6S Li-Po (not Lion) packs with balancers. I haven't seen any bike light mfgrs selling balancers or packs with balancing ports.

Could it be the low charge rates help mitigate cell balance issues? Or perhaps the Lion chemistry is less susceptible than Li-Po? Perhaps it's less of an issue with a 2S stack? I also noticed Gloworm says their Panasonic cells are "Pre-Selected" - could they be matching cells with the same internal resistance when building packs to minimize the need for balancing? Any thoughts appreciated.


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## [email protected] (Jun 13, 2019)

If anyone is curious, I was planning on using my Orbit Pocketlader which is a multi-chemistry charger that can be purchased with a built-in balancer:

POCKETLADER V3 - evojet

It's got female banana jack connectors on the output so I usually build whatever cables are needed (in this case I believe I'll have to make one with a standard 5521 DC connector - 5.5mm by 2.1mm).

I have the older Pocketlader which has a 4A max output that can handle up to a 5S stack. So for 6800/10000mAh packs, I'll be able to charge at ~ 0.6C and 0.4C, respectively.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

With quality cells there is normaly no need to balance the cells. Currents are pretty low compared to Li-Po used in RC world. The load is with lights we use is nowhere near RC. More cells you have in series more important is balancing I would say.

Of course you can charge packs with Orbit Pocketlader set to 2S LiPo/LiIon 3A is good to start with. Note at least 20AWG cable is suggested to be used for such load.


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

*Maybe we should be emailing KD about 21700 packs*



arc said:


> {snip} Kaidomain packs. The batteries are inside a silicone case and come with a bag with velcro mounting straps. Good waterproofing and mechanical protection.


Good point. I have their 2cell and flat 4 cell(no case or bag) packs. Maybe we should be emailing KD about 21700 packs.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I can try to arrange that, since I was involved in those silicone case sealed packs. But first I would like here to agree on what characteristics it should have. 
I would go for 2 and 4 cell packs with:
- Samsung 21700 50E 
- clasical pop 5.5x2.1mm female connector
- 20 AWG cable about 60cm in length (maybe shorter variation with 2 cell pack ?? )
- 8A protection circuit 
- silicone rubber case 
- fabric cloth similar to exiiting ones ? 

Any suggestions?


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

That sounds good. Maybe 120mm rather than 100mm on the 2 cell pack.

I like the velcro "bag" on the existing 2cell. The 4cell I'm not sure about, can anyone enlighten us?

Not that I really need anything, my gloworm batteries still work great, KD & FMA work great, the new FMA 50Es will get tested tonight, the ITUO battery isn't terrible, even the cheepo 6 cell I got on amazon in 2013 works ok....











ledoman said:


> I can try to arrange that, since I was involved in those silicone case sealed packs. But first I would like here to agree on what characteristics it should have.
> I would go for 2 and 4 cell packs with:
> - Samsung 21700 50E
> - clasical pop 5.5x2.1mm female connector
> ...


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## [email protected] (Jun 13, 2019)

ledoman said:


> With quality cells there is normaly no need to balance the cells. Currents are pretty low compared to Li-Po used in RC world. The load is with lights we use is nowhere near RC. More cells you have in series more important is balancing I would say.
> 
> Of course you can charge packs with Orbit Pocketlader set to 2S LiPo/LiIon 3A is good to start with. Note at least 20AWG cable is suggested to be used for such load.


I hadn't thought about current draw. Some searching indicates light heads like the Gloworm XS can draw ~3.5A @max flux output. In comparison, I know RC motors for planes/trucks can draw over 60A continuously with 100A bursts. Big difference as you point out.

So 3A does sound like an OK charge rate to start playing with since the Gloworm (and I expect other) battery harness/plugs should take it.

I agree 20AWG would be good for my charger leads. Some of the quality RC sites are sourcing 22AWG with 60 strands which should be fine too. I wouldn't be surprised if pre-made 22AWG leads had lower strand counts & capacity. I'll have to make sure the 5.5x2.1 plug has the right rating for the leads. Don't think this will be an issue since places like Mouser in the US have them rated up to ~8A.

Appreciate your feedback.


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## [email protected] (Jun 13, 2019)

patski said:


> I like the velcro "bag" on the existing 2cell. The 4cell I'm not sure about, can anyone enlighten us?


Are you referring to the KD 2-cell pack's bag? If so, does it attach to the top/back of your vented helmet OK?

I'm planning out my Gloworm purchase and noticed their packs have slots built into their protective covers to make strapping easier.

Also, if you have a Gloworm 4-cell pack, I was wondering how well it attaches to your frame? A friend just got this bag to carry his 4-cell pack:

https://www.blackburndesign.com/p/outpost-corner-bike-frame-bag/

Thanks.


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Are you referring to the KD 2-cell pack's bag? If so, does it attach to the top/back of your vented helmet OK?


I haven't used the KD NCR18650GA on my helmet since the magicshine super thin 2 cell bag gave out last spring.(bought from actionled march2015). Both the bag and the stretchy velcro strap were very thin/lightweight. Fit nicely through the vents.

This fall I've been using my Hangover, internal battery. Now that the time has changed..... batteries.

Before KD I plastidiped the FMA batteries, stuck reflector tape on one side and velcro on the other, corresponding velcro on my helmet and use this velcro strap to secure it. Unless you biff helmets don't get much impact. This photo is from before the 50Es. Looks the same now but slightly bigger battery. Certainly feels heavier.









The FMA 50Es get their first test tonight in a KD bag on the stem(100mm wire).











[email protected] said:


> Also, if you have a Gloworm 4-cell pack, I was wondering how well it attaches to your frame?


Only "ok" on my SIR9, hardtail with 100mm fork that I ride 90% of the time.

So I used a 1/3" strip of velcro from a roll like this. thin strip on battery and one underside of toptube to keep it from rotating. I put velcro on my Tallboy too as a precaution but it probably works fine without velcro.


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## [email protected] (Jun 13, 2019)

Great tips Patski. I'll probably pick up a KD 2-cell pack to try on my helmet. My Ripmo has a rectangular-ish frame like your Tallboy but good to know the velcro trick.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

ledoman said:


> I can try to arrange that, since I was involved in those silicone case sealed packs. But first I would like here to agree on what characteristics it should have.
> I would go for 2 and 4 cell packs with:
> - Samsung 21700 50E
> - clasical pop 5.5x2.1mm female connector
> ...





patski said:


> That sounds good. Maybe 120mm rather than 100mm on the 2 cell pack.
> 
> I like the velcro "bag" on the existing 2cell. The 4cell I'm not sure about, can anyone enlighten us?


Anyone else?


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## [email protected] (Jun 13, 2019)

ledoman said:


> Anyone else?


I ordered his 4-cell pack 50E for use with a GW XSV but if the rubber case and bag were provided, I'd definitely buy the 2-cell 50E and velcro-strap it to my helmet for use with a GW X2. If not, I'd go with KD's 18650.


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## [email protected] (Jun 13, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> So 3A does sound like an OK charge rate to start playing with since the Gloworm (and I expect other) battery harness/plugs should take it.


If anyone has a hobby charger and was thinking about doing this ... I contacted Gloworm and they said if a charger other than their 1.4A wall-wart charger is used to charge a Gloworm battery, any charge current above 2.0A will void the warranty.

Not sure why this would be the case given their light heads can draw more than 2A and and the charge rate would 0.5C or less but those are their rules.


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

All sound good to me. I'd probably order one, even though I really don't need any more batteries.



ledoman said:


> I can try to arrange that, since I was involved in those silicone case sealed packs. But first I would like here to agree on what characteristics it should have.
> I would go for 2 and 4 cell packs with:
> - Samsung 21700 50E
> - clasical pop 5.5x2.1mm female connector
> ...


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

I ordered a couple of batteries from fma on ebay on 11/4. No activity so far except a USPS tracking number with a package not received yet notice. Seems a bit long for shipping to be initiated and the *"Deliveries from China may be delayed"* note (that I've not seen before) has me a little worried.
Mole


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## [email protected] (Jun 13, 2019)

MRMOLE said:


> I ordered a couple of batteries from fma on ebay on 11/4. No activity so far except a USPS tracking number with a package not received yet notice. Seems a bit long for shipping to be initiated and the *"Deliveries from China may be delayed"* note (that I've not seen before) has me a little worried.
> Mole


I ordered the 10Ah 50E pack from FMA on 10/30/2020. It arrived nicely packaged yesterday. Also ordered a USB charge analyzer from AliExpress a week before that and it took about 2 weeks as well. Hopefully your order will arrive soon.

This is my first time ordering from Asia and was wondering what to expect. Pleasantly surprised. Gloworms arrive in a few days so looking forward to trying everything out.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> I ordered the 10Ah 50E pack from FMA on 10/30/2020. It arrived nicely packaged yesterday. Also ordered a USB charge analyzer from AliExpress a week before that and it took about 2 weeks as well. Hopefully your order will arrive soon.
> 
> This is my first time ordering from Asia and was wondering what to expect. Pleasantly surprised. Gloworms arrive in a few days so looking forward to trying everything out.


Thanks for the reply. I didn't really expect to have the batteries (10Ah & 5Ah 50E's) yet, just surprised it shows no activity after 11 days. I'll post something when they arrive or if at least something shows up on tracking. I've ordered several thing from China through ebay and have never seen the possible delays from China orders warning before so don't know what to think about that.
Mole


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> If anyone has a hobby charger and was thinking about doing this ... I contacted Gloworm and they said if a charger other than their 1.4A wall-wart charger is used to charge a Gloworm battery, any charge current above 2.0A will void the warranty.
> 
> Not sure why this would be the case given their light heads can draw more than 2A and and the charge rate would 0.5C or less but those are their rules.


Different batteries have different maximum charging and discharge rates. The maximum discharge rate is always going to be higher than the maximum charge rate. That's just the way batteries are. Even my AccuPower 18650 single cell charger only allows up to 1000ma as it's maximum charge rate ( per cell ). That said some cells are capable of taking up to 2A charge but depends on the type of battery.

Keep in mind that protected cell packs have a circuit board attached to the battery pack and is designed to protect the battery pack. Charging the pack with more than 2A might have something to do with the limitations of the circuit board and not so much with the cells themselves.

Now as to the warranty on the Gloworm battery pack; If you were to use a hobby charger and charged the GW pack at 3A; How would Gloworm know if you used a hobby charger unless you told them? Anyway, 700ma per series ( 1400ma in parallel ) is a good safe charging rate. If GW said not to go beyond a 2A charge rate I think it a good idea to do as they say.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

A lot of these bike battery packs use low cost high storage capacity cells that can't tolerate a high charging current. I think the Panasonic's often used in these packs aren't rated for much more than an amp without decreasing the life of the cell. Packing a bunch of cells together inside a case where they can't dissipate heat well would also restrict charging rate.

I have a Miboxer individual cell charger that selects charge current according to the internal battery resistance it measures, it also monitors the temperature of each cell. It will charge a high drain Sony vtc5a at three amps while my old Ituo batteries only get an amp.


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## [email protected] (Jun 13, 2019)

Because Gloworm says they use Panasonic cells, I decided to pull the datasheets on the Panasonic NCR18650GA (3450 maH) and NCR18650B (3350 mAh) cells assuming they're using same/similar cells.

https://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/11259-NCR18650GA.pdf
https://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/NCR18650B.pdf

Nominal charge currents spec'd are 1475mA (GA) and 1625mA (B) which are 0.4C and 0.5C charge rates, respectively.

Those specified charge currents are in line with Gloworm's 1.4A wall charger - which I assume is tailored for their 2-cell (2S) pack. I also assume this single stack cell configuration is what their service rep had in mind (not two stacks in parallel).

So I would expect their 4-cell (2S2P) pack should be able to accept a 3A current ... unless as CatMan surmises there is a limitation with the protection circuit. I'll shoot an email to Gloworm and ask.

BTW, I like how Panasonic's 18650B datasheet shows the CC-CV charge curve. Also nice to see both GA/B datasheets specify the cutoff current to end the CV charging phase (65 mA for the B) - many hobby chargers allow you to program that value including my old Pocketlader.


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## [email protected] (Jun 13, 2019)

arc said:


> Packing a bunch of cells together inside a case where they can't dissipate heat well would also restrict charging rate.


Fair point. All my experience has been with NiMh and Lipo packs so it will be interesting to see how warm my 2S2P li-on packs gets at a 0.5C rate. I need to rig up a banana to DC plug charge cable.



arc said:


> I have a Miboxer individual cell charger that selects charge current according to the internal battery resistance it measures, it also monitors the temperature of each cell. It will charge a high drain Sony vtc5a at three amps while my old Ituo batteries only get an amp.


Do you mean it will select the charge current during the initial CC (Constant Current) phase? That's interesting. Every hobby charger I've owned asks the user to manually select the CC charge current so you can set the charge rate. They will automatically detect how many cells are in series via a voltage measurement though (and allow you to override if it guessed wrong).


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Fair point. All my experience has been with NiMh and Lipo packs so it will be interesting to see how warm my 2S2P li-on packs gets at a 0.5C rate. I need to rig up a banana to DC plug charge cable.
> 
> Do you mean it will select the charge current during the initial CC (Constant Current) phase? That's interesting. Every hobby charger I've owned asks the user to manually select the CC charge current so you can set the charge rate. They will automatically detect how many cells are in series via a voltage measurement though (and allow you to override if it guessed wrong).


Its a four bay single cell charger so its able to measure each individual cell. In a pack there is connectors, wiring and likely protection boards making cell resistance measurement impossible.

When the charger starts it measures the resistance of each individual cell and applies the appropriate charge current. As the battery charges it warms up and the internal resistance drops, the charger sees this and increases the current. Pretty slick unless the charger or battery terminals get some oxidation on them, if I don't notice charging takes forever.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

0.5C is only standard recomended charging current. Cells can be safely charged at higher currents up to 1C, but you are loosing a bit of lifetime. For average MTB use with 50 cycles per year this is minor issue. For lifgetime it is more important not to do complete topping and depleting.

Articles about that can be read at:
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

So our tipical 2S2P packs we use nowadays can be safely charged at 3A. Even 2S1P cell packs with geniue cells should not having issues, nor they will get hot until they are wornt out. The later you'll notice with longer caharging time and lower runtime.

I'm talking about all modern 18650 cells at around 3000mAh and above. Panasonic, Sanyo, Samsung, LG, Sony are recomended.
Those are rated at least for 4-5A discharge rate and some like Panny GA up to 10A. High discharge cells are different story and can also be charged at higer rates, but those tipicaly have lower capacity so are not so usable for our purpose. They are better in freezing condition though.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Those specified charge currents are in line with Gloworm's 1.4A wall charger - which I assume is tailored for their 2-cell (2S) pack. I also assume this single stack cell configuration is what their service rep had in mind (not two stacks in parallel).


The Gloworm chargers really are small, they are the only reputable chargers I have (the insurance company will be understanding should they burn down my house). I'm looking at getting one of the bigger Kaidomain battery packs which will take 8+ hours to charge on them!


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

I have Ituo lights/batteries and think they're Panasonic's. I'm using the charger that came w/ it. Is that the wayt to go or should I look into one of the chargers mentioned, the one that self regulates? Do you have a link.

Thx


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

mb323323 said:


> I have Ituo lights/batteries and think they're Panasonic's. I'm using the charger that came w/ it. Is that the wayt to go or should I look into one of the chargers mentioned, the one that self regulates? Do you have a link.
> 
> Thx


If you have a Wiz one or two you should be fine using the built in charger. If you have a Wiz 20 a dedicated charger would probably be better. The ones that display cell information like voltage, internal resistance and can do capacity tests are nicer but a simple charger will work fine.

The Wiz20 charges cells in series, over time one cell can get more discharged than the other if the cells aren't perfectly matched. This leads to two problems because charging is stopped by the protection circuit opening up on the higher voltage cell, not the charging circuit in the light. First the lower voltage cell never gets fully charged so you get less run time before the light shuts off due to low voltage. The second problem is the higher voltage cell finishes charging at normal charge current, not the proper termination charge current. You can charge the cells with the light's built in charger and occasionally even up the cells with the external charger.

Also a lot of Wiz20's discharged the batteries when the light was off. If you remove the cells from the light to charge them in an external charger and don't put them back in the light until you're ready to ride you can be sure they are fully charged.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

I have the XP-3's w/ external battery. The charger looks like the basic Magicshine or other cheap charger.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

mb323323 said:


> I have the XP-3's w/ external battery. The charger looks like the basic Magicshine or other cheap charger.


That pack should be fine with that charger, mine is still going strong. There is not much you can do without disassembling the pack anyway.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

MRMOLE said:


> View attachment 1377197
> 
> 
> I ordered a couple of batteries from fma on ebay on 11/4. No activity so far except a USPS tracking number with a package not received yet notice. Seems a bit long for shipping to be initiated and the *"Deliveries from China may be delayed"* note (that I've not seen before) has me a little worried.
> Mole


Batteries were in my mail box last night (11/18). Interesting that the tracking showed no activity until after the package was delivered.
Mole


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> Batteries were in my mail box last night (11/18). Interesting that the tracking showed no activity until after the package was delivered.
> Mole


Yes, mine came in 10 days but according to the tracking number from FMA they never arrived....


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## [email protected] (Jun 13, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> Because Gloworm says they use Panasonic cells, I decided to pull the datasheets on the Panasonic NCR18650GA (3450 maH) and NCR18650B (3350 mAh) cells assuming they're using same/similar cells.
> 
> https://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/11259-NCR18650GA.pdf
> https://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/NCR18650B.pdf
> ...


Quick update. Gloworm (Nico) said a max 2A charge current applies to both their 2-cell (2S) and 4-cell (2S2P) packs to stay within warranty. I asked if the protection circuit was the reason why the 4-cell pack was limited to 2A (only a 0.3C charge rate) but no specifics on the limiting factor were provided.


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

I noticed this Gemini pack on ActionLED (sold out) but it's avail on Amazon: Gemini 4-Cell Battery 60Wh 8.4V USB-C

*USC-C charging*, hard case and can act as a USB-C power pack, could be perfect for the self-contained crowd 

Also a 2 Cell version: Gemini 2-Cell Battery 8.4V USB-C

21700 Batteries, slightly heavier but more run time.


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> I ordered the 10Ah 50E pack from FMA on 10/30/2020. It arrived nicely packaged yesterday. Also ordered a USB charge analyzer from AliExpress a week before that and it took about 2 weeks as well. Hopefully your order will arrive soon.


Interesting, found this email in my SPAM folder this morning...


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

patski said:


> Interesting, found this email in my SPAM folder this morning...


I didn't get that email but noticed the FMA batteries showed up in the Magicshine section @ Aliexpress yesterday.
I also noticed I could still find shipped from US FMA stock on ebay with much quicker shipping (for those of us who live in North America).
Mole


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## zapotec (Jul 21, 2020)

patski said:


> Interesting, found this email in my SPAM folder this morning...
> 
> View attachment 1944070


Thanks for pointing out the Lee Hunk / FMA batteries opening store in AliExpress platform. It's been more accessible for APAC region folks who needs quality genuine cells.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Funny, it says

Store No.1720416 Guangdong, China
This store has been open sinceMar 9,2015

So not very new. But could be it was just created, not really selling anything. Anyway, for EU countries prices are to high. Specialy now when VAT for destination country has been collected by AE.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

What do you all think of this battery pack. Says Samsung cells, can we believe that. Thinking we can. And what connector is right for the Magicshine style connector. The second connector shown?

Thx

Oh I'm assuming these are 21700's?









Protected Li-Ion Battery 7.2v 10Ah for Magicshine Bike Light Flashlight 50E2S2P | eBay


Battery System 1 n sets of battery; with PCM inside;. PVC heat shrink tube. Reference Weight Product Gallery.



www.ebay.com


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

mb323323 said:


> What do you all think of this battery pack. Says Samsung cells, can we believe that. Thinking we can. And what connector is right for the Magicshine style connector. The second connector shown?
> 
> Thx
> 
> ...


Totally happy with the one I have. I use mine with a Monteer 3500 that draws over 5A and no problem powering that light.
Mole


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yup, it should be OK.
It has to have those cells: Test of Samsung INR21700-50E 5000mAh (Cyan)


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Ordered up. Says will be here by Oct 19th. I'm not a reviewer but I'll report back w/ run time on my Ituo XP-3 and BL70. I believe the stock Ituo battery pack is Panasonics so I'll see what the run time difference is between the 2.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Just received battery. Looks good does feel heavier then my Ituo 4 cell 18650's.

Mole, what did you use for a cover?

MB


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

mb323323 said:


> Just received battery. Looks good does feel heavier then my Ituo 4 cell 18650's.
> 
> Mole, what did you use for a cover?
> 
> MB


I had an old Gemini battery bag from an 18650 4 cell pack that worked fine so I'd also imagine the Ituo bags would work too.
Mole


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Bogus batteries? Granted, these were just super cheap amazon batteries, a few years old. I went to charge up the pile of battery packs I have and both of these were not charging and heating up. Upon tearing into the packaging of one, I appears as if these were just a joke to begin with anyways....or am I missing something? It appears as if only one battery has terminals soldered to it, and thus the only battery in the pack that was supplying power - the others were just there for show? As far as I can tell, there's no way the other 3 in the pack were actually part of a multi pack cell. The base paper board on either end is not conductive, at least according to my multi-meter, and that's the only conceivable way that I could figure that these would actually work. On this note, what's the best 4 or 6 pack battery pack for the money out there right now (for BT40 clones)? I heard Kaidoman mentioned several times in here. As these a reasonable battery? 4x 18650 Li-ion Battery Pack for Bike Light


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

The battery I bought in the thread here is real. The run time is so far 2:15 on high. And that's using it over the last month so it's been sitting a bit. I'll do a real run time test once the nights cool down more as even w/ a fan it's still to warm to run the BL70 on high. The only place I've used it on high is at the Coast. So far though I'd recommend this pack and think it's the best one so far. More to follow.


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