# What Do the Ladies REALLY think about Guys Contributing to this Forum?



## papajohn (Feb 1, 2004)

I am ready to admit that I find the Women’s Lounge to be the most interesting Forum on the website. Every time I log in I check here, and the Arizona Forum (my home) to see what is new.

This seems to be far and away the most active Forum with a most interesting variety of topics, and a refreshing perspective that sure beats all the bashing, flaming and posturing that seems to be so prevalent on other Forums.

Still I admit that each time I post here, or consider posting here, I feel a twinge of concern that guys really don’t belong here and may well be resented for our intrusion. DeepWaterDave and old_dude not withstanding, I can’t recall anyone seeming to piss you off (and in all fairness you ladies were kinder to them than I ever would have been), but I still wonder.

Am I insecure and looking for some warm reassurance? Nah, I don’t think so. But I would really like to hear from the women who regularly post here what their honest attitude is about the male participation in this Forum. It might make me feel freer about participating, or know more certainly that I should keep my thoughts to myself.  

John W.


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

I find that men posting invades our ever so dainty and ladylike atmosphere.

*BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRP*

Oooops. Pardone moi. 

Nah, the fellas that are checking out this board are generally absorbing advice/perspectives for their lady bikers, offering their own insight into womanly issues (hell, I think we may have even gotten a few tips from the men on the ol' period thread), or they're just hanging around BS'n like the rest of us.

In my opinion, no between-the-knees kick test is required to post in this forum.


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## Drewdane (Dec 19, 2003)

catzilla said:


> In my opinion, no between-the-knees kick test is required to post in this forum.


*Whew*! I can't tell you how relieved I am to read that!


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## SheSpeedsNotSingleSpeed (Jan 26, 2004)

Most of the time the guys that participate in here are genuinely interested in something about their female riding partner or giving their legitimate opinion on a topic. It's the few guys that come in carrying the bashing, flaming and posturing, and "let's see more titties on the trails" posts that need to feel a sense of intrution when they are thinking about posting.


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## Pirate Girl (Dec 19, 2003)

The Women's Forum is starting to become my new "Passion". I can't keep up with the # of posts in Passion, whereas the Women's Forum I tend to read almost every thread (same with the AZ board).

I don't mind that guys post in this forum, since many of those that have behaved themselves have contributed a lot of helpful info.

Besides, we all know this is probably the most popular forum for guys to lurk in anyways.


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## MallieD (Apr 11, 2004)

*I agree...*

The bulk of the testosteronees posting in this forum seem to have their heads on straight, can take a little feminine attitude and, in general, offer positive affirmation and advice. Besides, a couple of my favorite 'ronees have posted some of the most laugh-out-loud replies to the occasional male would-be-intellectual-but-comes-across-as-a-horse's-a$$ posts! Keep it coming!


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## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

papajohn said:


> I am ready to admit that I find the Women's Lounge to be the most interesting Forum on the website. Every time I log in I check here, and the Arizona Forum (my home) to see what is new.
> 
> This seems to be far and away the most active Forum with a most interesting variety of topics, and a refreshing perspective that sure beats all the bashing, flaming and posturing that seems to be so prevalent on other Forums.
> 
> ...


I've never understood women's group thingies that purposefully exclude men. Our women's team, our rides and our email list are always open to men. I had the organizer of another all female team tell me that she excludes men from her email list because it can inhibit the contribution of women. That may well be true in some cases, but I don't think I want to pander to that in any way. Seems too "victimish" to me. I'll speak my mind regardless of who is in the room thank you very much. Well, unless its my mom. Then maybe I won't.

The abundance of men in this sport is one of the reasons I love this sport.

Sabine

p.s. speaking of the nad kick test....


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## Dude (Jan 12, 2004)

Sabine said:


> I've never understood women's group thingies that purposefully exclude men. Our women's team, our rides and our email list are always open to men. I had the organizer of another all female team tell me that she excludes men from her email list because it can inhibit the contribution of women. That may well be true in some cases, but I don't think I want to pander to that in any way. Seems too "victimish" to me. I'll speak my mind regardless of who is in the room thank you very much. Well, unless its my mom. Then maybe I won't.
> 
> The abundance of men in this sport is one of the reasons I love this sport.
> 
> ...


Sabine,

After seeing your shirt I must ask...... Place of purchase for said shirt  Please..

-Dude


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## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

Dude said:


> Sabine,
> 
> After seeing your shirt I must ask...... Place of purchase for said shirt  Please..
> 
> -Dude


http://www.hottopic.com/

At their store in Capitola, CA

Sabine


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

I don't think that this forum should be exclusionary at all. I like the perspective that the guys bring in here, especially if we have estrogen blinders on. Having said that, I must be honest and admit that I feel a little funny when there are more men posting in a thread than women. So shoot me, but that's the way I feel. You asked. Doesn't mean I think anything can be done about it (outside of therapy I mean).


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## JustDoIt (Feb 2, 2004)

Ok, I'll bite and try to answer honestly.

I have some mixed feelings. But, I think it's just my own fears on how things could degenerate rather than from anything happening here. Oh, and maybe because I don't particularly care for a few male posters. (DWD springs to mind first.)

I think I mentioned once before that at work and play I feel like I'm bombarded by men's opinions. I love hearing so many women talk about mountain biking and all kinds of stuff. I like to imagine I'm making new female riding buddies, and a few new male ones too. And I'm thrilled whenever I read a woman's post and think, "Wow! She is so much smarter or funnier than me." I know, I know, hard to believe.  

Seems like you guys can answer any post much quicker simply because of your numbers. And I think, if all the guys answer immediately than why should a woman post if it's all been said before? I think there are some women-specific issues, in regards to bikes and bike accessorires, that only women can really answer. But, other threads are open to anyone. In a few threads, I can imagine myself being sensitive to feeling like the guy is swooping down to rescue us and I find that unattractive. So, I like it when I notice a little restraint on your(plural) part. And I've noticed it at times. I think it's cool.

But, that doesn't mean I NEVER value men's opinions! I do! There have been posts made by men here that I really enjoyed and appreciated. I especially like it when guys scold other guys so I don't have to feel compelled to do it. Or when the guys make good jokes too. I like to laugh. And I like it when guys ask questions hoping for women's perspectives on the answer. I like to talk and eavesdrop myself  

I've visited these forums briefly on and off since 97. But, never felt like sticking around past the answer I was seeking, or a glimpse of who the players currently were. I really do believe there are issues specific to women mtn bikers. It's harder to find answers in the other forums. I think it's good that men can be interested in those topics too.

Kind of a side note... I think it's a pet peeve of mine when I hear guys express an attitude like "all ladies are like this" or "all ladies think like that." So in a way I view this space as fulfilling my own personal agenda.  Surely you've noticed, just in this thread alone, that we all don't think alike?


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## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

JustDoIt said:


> Ok, I'll bite and try to answer honestly.
> 
> )


Does the gender of the person supplying advice matter? I mean it probably does, but we are online and so how do you even know the gender of the person? I could be a guy. You wouldn't know. I could be my boyfriend using my sign on. Would that make the way you view my posts and structure your response different?

I'm not asking to taunt or anything. I am honestly curious.

Sabine


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Gender doesn't matter in regards to advice. Of course not. BUT, i have another analogy.

I don't post in the single speed forum (usually) because I don't ride a singlespeed, I'm not an expert on singlespeeds and I feel funny about posting there even though I'm sure noone would give a hoot if I had useful advice to give. But, for me, it just feels funny. Same with DH forum. 

However if I saw a lot of gearies in the SS forum posting about their SS partners and SS friends, or just chatting away and stuff, I think I'd get that same funny feeling that I described above. 

This is me, though. I told you I need therapy.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

I was wondering when this would come up and how others felt about it.

I find myself trying (but not always successfully) to take the “fly on the wall” approach many times because I find the perspectives interesting and the ladies very capable on technical matters and don’t want to have too much of a wet blanket effect. I like hearing (reading) conversations I wouldn’t otherwise be privy to unless I was “lurking”. I have even learned some things in my never-ending quest for a better understanding of the opposite gender.

Once or twice I felt a little weird for posting like I was intruding somewhere I wasn’t supposed to be or I could imagine female participants thinking, “Who asked you anyway?” But then I just went back to being a guy and said “What the heck!” 

There also seems to be a bit more levity present and very few instances of guys having their eyes pecked out for saying something stupid. 


*quietly goes back into "lurk" mode*


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## Spike (Dec 30, 2003)

*Mho*

I think it is fine in moderation.

Spike


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## JustDoIt (Feb 2, 2004)

Sabine said:


> Does the gender of the person supplying advice matter? I mean it probably does, but we are online and so how do you even know the gender of the person?


That's a very good question. I don't think it always matters. But, if I saw 10 "guys" jump immediately on every single question a "woman" posts, I'd just leave this place. Because I don't want to compete or argue with the guys if I disagree with them. I do that enough at work. Plus, I really don't know sh!t anyway!!  I wouldn't be able to contribute anything even though I love mountain biking, so why hang around? I feel here I can almost say anything I want with some kind of nice immunity!?! Rather than getting flamed as a whiner.

I don't want to wade through too many male opinions on what camelbak or bike seat is best for me. I really do want to hear from women that are similar in build to me. I don't think anyone would say it's wrong of me to prefer the women's voice over the men's sometimes?? I'm afraid if the guys got into the habit of jumping too soon on all the gender-neutral threads, it wouldn't stop there and they'd turn this forum into being just like any of the others. I don't know why I worry or feel a little that way. Impy, can you find me a therapist too?

There has been MANY helpful posts from "guys" in the WL! Don't get me wrong! I probably should've made that more clear in my first post. Definitely some good advice on technical issues too.

As to being online and not really knowing a poster's gender... you're absolutely right. I'm the first to admit I'm an easy mark. I have a tendency to take things too literally, and to trust a bit too easily. And my non mountain biking friends are concerned and think I've gone crazy and am asking for trouble because I talk about some of you as if I knew you 

I find it interesting when some of the "male" posters mention how they find this forum "different" somehow... or they want to try to understand women better through it... sort of like they have an agenda other than pure mountain biking and they like hearing what they too perceive as women's voices. I think that's really neat. I like hearing those guys too because I get confused trying to understand some male-female interactions. I've PM'd and talked to a few guys here and I always wonder if they misunderstand and think I'm coming on to them  or if when they put one of these  in a message to me, does that mean they're flirting??  Ha!

I really love mountain biking, and I find this communication forum interesting in itself. It's the first time I've participated in such. And I simply enjoy hearing there are more women besides myself that are into all aspects of mountain biking. I like that. I don't want it to end. ([email protected] I talk too much!)


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Since this board doesn't have an "official moderater" feel free to email or PM me if stuff gets posted that violates the posting guidelines.

Actually, this goes for any of the boards that don't have moderators.


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## jedoaks (Jan 15, 2004)

*That's a fact! By the way , are you single*

([email protected] I talk too much!)[/QUOTE]

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

JustDoIt said:


> ... and maybe because I don't particularly care for a few male posters. (DWD springs to mind first.)


He is gone...


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Of course gender matters concernng perspective.*

Men and women have very different sets of priorities, think about things differently, and express themselves differently (props to George Elliot, however, and she doesn't write here.) Any student of writing knows that; it is a matter of voice and voice comes from the heart. It does matter which gender an opinion comes from for those reasons. No matter how we try to act as if the genders are equal they are never the same. As such, it is the very reason for this Forum.
In some ways this Forum is like a Ladies Room and not a Unisex Bathroom. That is, a gentleman respects the priorities of women in this Forum. Women will dance about an issue and tease it to death to explore it, to get it's full experience, and validate their feeling on it. Men can very quickly hit a nail on the head and totally stop interaction. Men and women may come to the same conclusion about an issue but we get there differently. One method is more satisfactory than another to different genders.
I don't believe that people can be gender blind any more than they can be racially blind. That we are human and have manifold and infinitesimal experiences at all levels of perception about gender pre-empts any of that thinking. That we are civilized and thoughtful, cultivations and generousities taught and learned, help us to mitigate prejudice with consideration.


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## kept man (Jan 13, 2004)

But isn't there as much variation within a given gender in terms of thought processes and problem solving techniques - say, straight (white) guys - as there is between different genders? Speaking as someone who doesn't always fit the perscribed mold, I cringe at the "men are like this ... women are like that" mentality.


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## JustDoIt (Feb 2, 2004)

kept man said:


> Speaking as someone who doesn't always fit the perscribed mold, I cringe at the "men are like this ... women are like that" mentality.


Yeah, I've noticed you're one that can talk as much or *MORE* than me!
You sure you're not a kept woman??? Just kidding!


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## The Berryman (Mar 19, 2004)

Trust me. I am not gay. Nor do I have some hope or expectation of finding a date on a message board.

But I just like women...as friends. I just always felt comfortable being around women...as friends.

I really like riding with women, because there is none of that testosterone racing crap.
I race expert. I can be fast on a bike when I want to. I do not need to prove anything. Often I just want to ride around and show someone the cool rock formations I found, or the turkey and deer, or scenic overlooks. Some times I just want to ride along and talk about stuff. Guys typically cant do that with guys. There is too much to prove. From the time they leave the trail head, it is all about being competitive and bashing each other into the ground. 

Women have a refreshing attitude when trying to clear a techical section. When guys have a bad ride, they blame their bikes. "My chain was skipping, my bike is heavier than yours, ect." Women are honest. "I had a bad ride today, because I just not riding well today." If I was to be an athletics coach, I think I would end up specializing in womens sports. For a guy, I think I understand women and their whole approach to athletics pretty well. I understand their attitudes, their motivation, their physical bodies, and how all of the above differs from male athletes.

I wish I could get more women to ride with me and not see it as me trying to flirt with them.

I feel like this forum is much like a ladies restroom. But at the same time, I do not feel uncomfortable hanging out in the corner. Women make the rules here. I may not belong here. But at the same time, I feel welcome.

I tend to try to keep my posting to a minimum here. I think I know what to say and not say. One of you posted a picture of yourself. I thought you were very beautiful. But this isnt the place to chime in with a trite comment about that. Maybe in another forum, I would comment on how "hot" I thought you were. But not here. Here my role in the ladies room is to just lean next to the door and quietly hand out hand towels and mints. 

I just hope too many guys do not infiltrate this forum. If they do, I certainly would not be offended at being told to "GET OUT!". And I certainly hope you ladies do not hesitate with that request if it gets to that point.


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## kept man (Jan 13, 2004)

Good humourous intentions recognized, Justdoit - I had often wondered how exactly people would 'take' my screen name, as it was meant to be laced with a touch of ... well, a bunch of things.

After my wife scored a sweet job down here in the States - but our moving would mean that I would not really be allowed to work (visa restricts me from getting a social security #) - it was interesting to see the range of reactions from people when we decided to go for it.

More interesting to me was that the joking comments which came from the full range of opinions; from disapproval and discomfort through to those who thought it was cool; all involved the notions of being "a kept man" with my "sugarmomma." Thus I picked it, being a deliberate play on blah blah blah, you get it. but i'm talking a lot again.


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## AZtortoise (Jan 12, 2004)

Spike said:


> I think it is fine in moderation.
> 
> Spike


i agree completely. so far, so good.

Rita


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## triscuit (Apr 26, 2004)

Lucky said:


> There's a book about the different communication styles of men and women, and I think the title is "You Just Don't Understand," and I can't recall the author's name to save my life. It basically says what you just said. In general, men and women have different styles. Men tend to be hierarchical hunters. They spar to find their place in the hierarchy. They hunt down and "kill" issues. Fix it, move on. Women are more communal. We tend to prefer equal status and group interaction. Misunderstanding of styles causes all kinds of friction in the workplace, and we get to watch videos on this topic at work once a year.
> 
> So, c'mon in guys. Sit down with us and have a cup of tea. Just don't run us over.
> 
> Kathy :^)


Deborah Tannen is the author, I think. Interesting book.


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## JustDoIt (Feb 2, 2004)

Lucky said:


> There's a book about the different communication styles of men and women...


I was just going to tell Berkeley Mike that I didn't know if he could say that. Thinking more like kept man... I didn't know if there were any studies making such broad generalizations. Interesting. Of course, I realize there are exceptions.


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## Lucky (Jan 12, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Women will dance about an issue and tease it to death to explore it, to get it's full experience, and validate their feeling on it. Men can very quickly hit a nail on the head and totally stop interaction. Men and women may come to the same conclusion about an issue but we get there differently. One method is more satisfactory than another to different genders.


There's a book about the different communication styles of men and women, and I think the title is "You Just Don't Understand," and I can't recall the author's name to save my life. It basically says what you just said. In general, men and women have different styles. Men tend to be hierarchical hunters. They spar to find their place in the hierarchy. They hunt down and "kill" issues. Fix it, move on. Women are more communal. We tend to prefer equal status and group interaction. Misunderstanding of styles causes all kinds of friction in the workplace, and we get to watch videos on this topic at work once a year.

So, c'mon in guys. Sit down with us and have a cup of tea. Just don't run us over.

Kathy :^)


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## JustDoIt (Feb 2, 2004)

The Berryman said:


> I really like riding with women, because there is none of that testosterone racing crap.


Well, maybe not racing with an expert like YOU, but there are definitely plenty of exceptions to that comment!! I have a male biking buddy who thinks the same way as you. He strongly prefers _mixed_ group rides. And I'll confess... if it's a mixed group ride, and I know a couple of the guys I think fondly of are not super strong, *I* want to be the lead rider. *I want to control* the testosterone so that the group stays somewhat together. I trust my pacing skills will push the slower guys the right amount, even if they don't finish right behind me on the last quarter of a climb. I don't want my friends getting demolished by a bozo who is new to riding with us, and starts that racing sh!t with them. (I know I have control freak tendencies!)



> I wish I could get more women to ride with me and not see it as me trying to flirt with them.


Misperceptions. I love them. I mentioned I have PM'd a few guys before. When I've done that, it's because I think "i really loved your contribution". I want to get that idea across, but, I'm still a little afraid that saying it publicly will cause a ton of other guys to start posting like crazy here, trying to get the same kudos from the grrls... and then cause the forum to change in some negative way. So, I send a PM and then have second thoughts like, "Oh no! Now he thinks..."  Isn't this fun? I'm glad this thread got started. I like the way the forum is working. BTW, I adored that muffin picture you posted 

KM, when I got my first job out of college, I had my own kept man (although we never married). People did react oddly. I think after a couple years it started to hurt his male ego. I hope you stay strong and don't allow those on the outside to get you feeling down.


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## *rt* (Jan 15, 2004)

*D. Tannen*



Lucky said:


> There's a book about the different communication styles of men and women, and I think the title is "You Just Don't Understand," and I can't recall the author's name to save my life. It basically says what you just said. In general, men and women have different styles. Men tend to be hierarchical hunters. They spar to find their place in the hierarchy. They hunt down and "kill" issues. Fix it, move on. Women are more communal. We tend to prefer equal status and group interaction. Misunderstanding of styles causes all kinds of friction in the workplace, and we get to watch videos on this topic at work once a year.
> 
> So, c'mon in guys. Sit down with us and have a cup of tea. Just don't run us over.
> 
> Kathy :^)


wrote _You Just Don't Understand_. i used a lot of her work on non-verbal commnication as the foundation of my PhD dissertation.  if you ever want to do a fun social experiment watch pairs of same-sex people talking and focus on how often they look at each other (in the eyes/face) and how often they look at each other at the same time. the best place to do this is at a cafe. you'll see some really interesting differences between pairs of men and pairs of women talking. (the difference don't hold up when the pair is 1 male and 1 female. in mixed-sex pairs the interaction has a lot of other stuff going on.)

rt - partial thesis title: _Here's Looking At You, Kid!..._


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## Lucky (Jan 12, 2004)

triscuit said:


> Deborah Tannen is the author, I think. Interesting book.


Thank you. I'd have never remembered her name.

What's funny is that most of my friends were boys when I was growing up, and even now, I have more men friends than women. My mother died when I was young, and I used to go to work with my Dad in the summer when he couldn't find a sitter. I played tag and keep-way with the 6 boys next door. I never seemed to make friends with other girls. When I read the book, what I realized is that I'd learned and was practicing the male communication style, and I wasn't communicating with women the way I was unconsciously expected to. Being "raised by wolves" made it easier to advance at work, but to communicate with other women, I have to switch gears a bit.

Kathy :^)

Kathy


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## dankilling (Feb 24, 2004)

Personally, I read this forum looking for help on issues for my wife instead of thinking I can truly add my own perspective to it- I just happen to be more addicted to biking than her, so anything I can do to help her enjoy the sport more is good...and this forum has helped on a number of occasions. The only thing I am still trying to help her with is chafing- we have tried many different brands of shorts, models, seats, seat covers, etc but so far no joy- she still gets a bit chafed after a long ride- next up, chamois cream.....any thoughts?


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

So far I think we've done a good job of weeding out the unwanted. I don't mind the men that contribute, I welcome it. However, if one was to try to tell me that he knew more about women's saddles than all the women on this board, well, I would be a bit cautious on the advice he gave.

I have become accustomed to the "testosterone effect" so I can either turn away or dive in without being too offended or affected. Between mountainbiking and rock climbing I've had to deal with it a lot. Also, given my husband's work and personality, I had better be able to deal with it. He's always bringing home poor starving bachelors (picture kid with stray puppy "Can we keep him?") so we can feed him. Our kids have more mountainbiking "uncles" than I can count. I could get upset about his bringing extra people home for dinner (unannounced), but I'd rather accept it, move on, make more food, and enjoy all the characters that I get to meet.


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

One of my best friends is an MD and her husband is a kept man, staying at home and watching their kids. It's a match made in heaven and it only makes sense, she has the earning potential and desire to work, he wants a bazillion kids.


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

Racing on casual rides. Well, I am guilty of that! I usually calm and mild mannered, but if you touch that competitive nerve... That's why I don't race. I would get obsessive and it would take too muchtime away from the important things, like my kids, husband, work, life...


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## *rt* (Jan 15, 2004)

*assos...*



dankilling said:


> Personally, I read this forum looking for help on issues for my wife instead of thinking I can truly add my own perspective to it- I just happen to be more addicted to biking than her, so anything I can do to help her enjoy the sport more is good...and this forum has helped on a number of occasions. The only thing I am still trying to help her with is chafing- we have tried many different brands of shorts, models, seats, seat covers, etc but so far no joy- she still gets a bit chafed after a long ride- next up, chamois cream.....any thoughts?


Lance swears by it! 

chafing has never really been a problem for me so i don't have a lot to offer but i have recently started using chamois cream because i got my first saddle sore a couple months ago. seriously, if you've been watching the Lance Chronicles the chamois cream he was extolling the virtues of the other night (but he wouldn't give the name of it) was Assos chamois cream. maybe that will help. (people also swear by Bag Balm and Chamois Butt'r. i tried Body Glide but found that it isn't thick enough to do much of anything)

rt


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## Mtnbikenmama (Apr 1, 2004)

*Question Screampint*

What does your husband do? We have a similar situation.


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## Pete (Dec 11, 2003)

Mtnbikenmama said:


> What does your husband do? We have a similar situation.


He provides venues in which women can take the tops off of other women.

Quite the entrepreneur that guy is.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*No. I don't think so.*



kept man said:


> But isn't there as much variation within a given gender in terms of thought processes and problem solving techniques - say, straight (white) guys - as there is between different genders? Speaking as someone who doesn't always fit the perscribed mold, I cringe at the "men are like this ... women are like that" mentality.


The variation you describe is expressed at the fringe or, say, the flatter part of the curve. Certainly one cannot deny the intersection of ideas across genders but, again, it can be seen as the overlap in two seperate curves. As I read this I see that I have fallen into a statistical model to describe what you express but I don't experience people in that fashion. It's just that this model does a great job of illustrating my point. 
Also, if I may, simply because you cringe at "men are this, etc" doesn't invalidate it but describes your resistance. I hardly fit molds myself. Quite the contrary, I am sought for thinking outside the box in many venues.Besides, I'm not talking about a "mold" here, just tendancies.
For example: Girls smell better than guys. Not all do and it isn't required but it still holds. Just start sniffing around. Does an awarness or understanding of that concept depict a mentality? Are there men who smell as good as women? Is there some problem with understanding differences and being able to describe them? Isn't that what definition is about. 
And, no, these are not hard and fast definitions of how men and women think, and certainly not how a man and a woman think. The brain, however, is not so all incompassing as to make rules for every situation. It works most frequently with shortcuts and generalities unless pressed to be more specific. Generalities, panceas, bromides, and cliches, work, for the most part, very frequently. It is a bit embarassing but we are only human.

Sorry about all of this, y'all. You just piqued my interest.

Vive la difference!


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## papajohn (Feb 1, 2004)

*Chamois Butter Vs. Bell Shaped Curves*

Many of the women who regularly participate in this Forum have been kind enough to express themselves with candor.

Since it appears that we may be on the virge of lubricating the statistical bell-shaped curve with Chamois Butter in order to prevent "mental chafing", it seems an appropriate time to thank the ladies for their input regarding our presence here.

I learned alot from you.

John W.


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## kept man (Jan 13, 2004)

(whispering): "berkley mike ... well put." and it's only with the slightest amusement that would mention my wife love statistical/mathematical models, while i never use them (humour! not argument). she runs a biomechanics laboratory ... 

i bow to your points ... i was conflating personal perspective with the general populus, i know. we flat-curvers just have to live with minority status ... 

(pssst): oh, and by the way; "the healing garden" makes a lovely 'green tea therapy' exfoliating body scrub. it's delicious - in a nontastey way - and helps me with odour issues.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Did anyone notice*

that the men virtually shut down this discussion in the Women's Lounge. Please note my original contribution to this thread.
And, Ladies, please accept my apologies for trampling on your garden.


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## Wasatch Walt (Jan 12, 2004)

*I don't think*



Berkeley Mike said:


> that the men virtually shut down this discussion in the Women's Lounge. Please note my original contribution to this thread.
> And, Ladies, please accept my apologies for trampling on your garden.


I don't think men should post here. Maybe once in a GREAT while, on a thread like this one.

I've noticed that men change the dynamic, and believe that women should have a place where they can deal w/o that change, to a large degree.

So, other than something like this, I won't post here, but from time to time, I do enjoy reading the threads here VERY GOOD stuff.


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## JustDoIt (Feb 2, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> that the men virtually shut down this discussion in the Women's Lounge.


In this case, I'm thinking you may be giving the guys too much credit.

I thought this thread was dying a natural death. Isn't it common for the thread initiator to write a wrapper-upper response like papajohn did? That tends to slow things down. No big deal.



> simply because you cringe at "men are this, etc" doesn't invalidate it but describes your resistance


Point very well taken!! I guess I could've responded earlier and said this. But, I really had nothing new to add and didn't want to dominate too much. Oh, and... I can't help men with body odor problems.  In fact, I have NEVER heard anyone say anything like you did (in regards to gender) like that! It kind of blew me away.

As to kept man's response... he was whispering so quietly, I couldn't even hear him!


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## skihillguy (Mar 29, 2004)

you wpmen have the most interesting spot on this site. 
how would i have ever discovered the chewy granola bars without lurking here. damm they are good.
Theres so much valuable information to be learned and women have so much to contribute . Do you thijnk i really i want to read about some guys hairy ass or read about some great recipes for nutritional info. I may be able to cook but i never knew how to make chewy granola bars and if it wasn't for the womens sections i never would have known. 

So i congradulate the women for there contributions and i applaude them for there knowledge and there desire toi succeeed


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## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> that the men virtually shut down this discussion in the Women's Lounge. Please note my original contribution to this thread.
> And, Ladies, please accept my apologies for trampling on your garden.


No, a man asked a question, we answered, we moved on to more interesting subject matter. There aren't very many of us here in this forum, so threads don't last too long.

Interesting that you felt that way though.

Sabine


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## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

Wasatch Walt said:


> I don't think men should post here. Maybe once in a GREAT while, on a thread like this one.
> 
> I've noticed that men change the dynamic, and believe that women should have a place where they can deal w/o that change, to a large degree.
> 
> So, other than something like this, I won't post here, but from time to time, I do enjoy reading the threads here VERY GOOD stuff.


Its what is written, not who writes it that changes the dynamic.

Sabine


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## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

skihillguy said:


> you wpmen have the most interesting spot on this site.
> how would i have ever discovered the chewy granola bars without lurking here. damm they are good.
> Theres so much valuable information to be learned and women have so much to contribute . Do you thijnk i really i want to read about some guys hairy ass or read about some great recipes for nutritional info. I may be able to cook but i never knew how to make chewy granola bars and if it wasn't for the womens sections i never would have known.
> 
> So i congradulate the women for there contributions and i applaude them for there knowledge and there desire toi succeeed


Okay, I am getting annoyed now.

Can you tell?

I am not picking on you, you just happen to be the pc straw that broke this camel's back.

Why would we need congratulations for posting stuff in a mountain bike forum. How is that worthy of any kind of accolades? We're just a bunch of chicks bored at home or work between rides, posting some thoughts on a dam mtb forum. Whooopeee fricken weee! We're not like armless, blind 3rd world refugees who had to come here in a rubber raft and work in a potato farm and peck on the keys with a pencil in our mouths. To congratulate us for this reeks of condenscension.

And its their.

And did you really make those granola bars? Can I have some? This pencil pecking is making me hungry.

Sabine


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

I'm actually really surprised this thread has lasted as long as it has. I read the first post and didn't reply because I don't care who posts in the women's forum as long as it's in the right spirit of helping, motivating, and entertaining one another.


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## SILVERHUFFY (Jan 13, 2004)

as long as it has nothing to do with vagina's or kotex than I believe men have the right to post 
as for chaffing,and related topics, men have the same issues as women really,and as long as there is no serious interruption to the "flow" of things,their voices should be heard
I think this forum is one of the best on mtbr,and value the insight gathered here.
the womans perspective is nice to lurk at
take care.
Don in Redwood City


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I think you may be right about the natural death*



Sabine said:


> No, a man asked a question, we answered, we moved on to more interesting subject matter. There aren't very many of us here in this forum, so threads don't last too long.
> 
> Interesting that you felt that way though.
> 
> Sabine


of the topic. I just wonder at how that is different from topic killing input which goes back to my initial comment. Do you see what I mean? Thanks for your response.


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## dirtcrab (Feb 4, 2004)

SILVERHUFFY said:


> as long as it has nothing to do with vagina's or kotex than I believe men have the right to post
> as for chaffing,and related topics, men have the same issues as women really,and as long as there is no serious interruption to the "flow" of things,their voices should be heard
> I think this forum is one of the best on mtbr,and value the insight gathered here.
> the womans perspective is nice to lurk at
> ...


Believe it or not Don, I can guarantee that chafing for men and women is quite different. I won't go into any more detail because it has everything to do with vagina's and kotex. 

I have no problem with guys posting on here.


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## Drewdane (Dec 19, 2003)

Sabine said:


> Okay, I am getting annoyed now.
> 
> Can you tell?
> 
> ...


What kind of pencil - #2 or mechanical? I find the soft cedar of the #2 keeps my jaw fresh longer for typing.


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## namaSSte (Dec 19, 2003)

Sabine said:


> Okay, I am getting annoyed now.
> 
> Can you tell?
> 
> ...


Sabine, Im glad you said it. I lurk a little here now and then hoping I can figure out how to get my wife raeally wanting to hit the trail with me. Anyawy, I diverge. No one ever answered your intial question about why gender matters and how we even know who's what gender in the first place.

Bottom line is this, segregation is a self fulfilling prohecy that can't be used on an as needed basis (public bathrooms being an obivious exception). This applies to gender, race, etc. Its a dangerous and destructive thing at its worst and annoying as [email protected] otherwise. I just get annoyed at how defensive it can make people feel (on either side of the gender fence).

So be open minded and put down the persona (not you Sabine, the poster you are responding to). In the end, we're all just mountain bikers.

Peace,
Scott

btw Sabine, did you mean condensation?  (and not in a flirty way, lol!)


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## JustDoIt (Feb 2, 2004)

namaSSte said:


> So be open minded and put down the persona (not you Sabine, the poster you are responding to)


Scott, I think you're talking to me. I'm not sure what you mean by _put down the persona_. Are you saying I'm not being real or honest with my words? I think I said before that I find it interesting when the guys say this place is _different_. Especially after reading Sabine's comment about some posts reeking of condescension. Also, FWIW, I find that my opinions are not static and often change with time.


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## Julianna (Mar 5, 2004)

*My Opinion*



Hallo Sweetie,

Well, I must say you have my interest piqued! For this is a quite intriguing post.

First, I believe no matter the gender, each of us has a value and a quite wonderful ability to share; this is true in mountain-biking and in life. So if a man wishes into a female-specific room to post, I offer no resistance. Of course, provided the post is polite and relevent to the room.

I must admit, that since I have returned to mtbr, I have received many private messages; many from quite wonderful women and men (you all know you are sweet!). But I have received many more asking me for things not suited to herein post. Of course, they receive the IGNORE button LOL!

But my point is this. If a man wishes to here venture, please respect the women for whom mountain-biking is also a Passion. Perhaps we are not as strong as you but perhaps our finesse can simply outride your ass! ;D

TOODLES!

Julianna. ​


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## Zonic Man (Dec 19, 2003)

Sabine said:


> * ........on a dam mtb forum. *
> And its their.


It's _damn_.

So they're.


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## Julianna (Mar 5, 2004)

*More...*



Hallo Again,

I failed to mention this but moments ago. But I often to the "political" forum venture. But alas, I am the only grrl there! The men are quite opinionated and one must constantly be on guard.

So, to you all, join me! A welcome voice you shall unto that room provide.

TOODLES!

Julianna
​


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Julianna said:


> I failed to mention this but moments ago. But I often to the "political" forum venture. But alas, I am the only grrl there! The men are quite opinionated and one must constantly be on guard.
> ​


You are tougher than I, lady. I can't even go in there - my blood pressure gets too high.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

JustDoIt said:


> Scott, I think you're talking to me. I'm not sure what you mean by _put down the persona_. Are you saying I'm not being real or honest with my words? I think I said before that I find it interesting when the guys say this place is _different_. Especially after reading Sabine's comment about some posts reeking of condescension. Also, FWIW, I find that my opinions are not static and often change with time.


Naw i think he was referring to the person who stated that we girls are so cool because we post on a MTB forum. That's the one that ruffled Sabine's boa feathers.


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## JustDoIt (Feb 2, 2004)

Impy said:


> Naw i think he was referring to the person who stated that we girls are so cool because we post on a MTB forum. That's the one that ruffled Sabine's boa feathers.


Duh. I think I just learned a few important lessons today.

1) Think and reread the thread before you post -- not just the email you get sent when you subscribe... because it doesn't include the quoted part in it and you may get confused by that. I knew Sabine responded in response to one of my posts. And the questions he mentioned were initially posted to me from Sabine. I forgot about her other response not being directed towards me... and what the guy(generic) had said... about the granola bars 

2) Don't post when you're in a hurry and about to run out the door! It took about an hour later, when I wasn't near a computer, before it popped into my head "oh oh." Live and learn, I guess.

[edit: can't believe this thread is still alive!  ]


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## Zonic Man (Dec 19, 2003)

JustDoIt said:


> initially posted to me from Sabine.


That wasn't sabine, that was a guy POSING and POSTING as Sabine.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Zonic Man said:


> That wasn't sabine, that was a guy POSING and POSTING as Sabine.


*gasp*


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## JustDoIt (Feb 2, 2004)

Zonic Man said:


> That wasn't sabine, that was a guy POSING and POSTING as Sabine.


Ahhh... that explains the typos!  
Would you believe it was a younger sister that told me the truth about Santa Claus?


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## JustDoIt (Feb 2, 2004)

Julianna said:


> But I often to the "political" forum venture. But alas, I am the only grrl there! The men are quite opinionated and one must constantly be on guard.


Yo, Julianna! Actually, I lurk there quite a bit. A lot of those guys are very well versed in US and world history. I like reading what I consider extremist views on both sides... and the thoughtful ones in the middle. My main problem there is 1) I don't have enough time for this forum, bits and pieces of the others, and that one, 2) I'm NOT very knowledgable when it comes to history and politics and even current events, 3) I feel more comfortable talking from personal experience. "Toodles"


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## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

Zonic Man said:


> That wasn't sabine, that was a guy POSING and POSTING as Sabine.


Aren't you a clever boy? I know, I owe you a phone call. At lunchtime.

It was me who posted, typos and all. The trail of blue boa feathers behind the post always gives me away. I didn't know if "damn" would make it through the censors. I hate typing something and it just shows up as ***** when posted.

Just Do It's confusion, and even more so, her explanation of the confusion, has left me so confused.

I think DrewDane and I are actually the same person.

Yoooooleeeeaaaaaahna...Does anyone else just love saying that when you see her Avatar? Yoolee, I just cannot join you in the SocioPath forum. The world can be an ugly cruel place, as recently evidenced, and this silly mtb forum is my escape. To come here, and then talk about the world I am escaping from, would be detri to my mental.

Now, if you will excuse me, I need to go stick my head back in the sand.

Saaabeeeeenaaa


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## Drewdane (Dec 19, 2003)

Sabine said:


> I think DrewDane and I are actually the same person.


As evidenced by my VeloBella jersey.



Sabine said:


> Yoooooleeeeaaaaaahna...Does anyone else just love saying that when you see her Avatar? Yoolee, I just cannot join you in the SocioPath forum. The world can be an ugly cruel place, as recently evidenced, and this silly mtb forum is my escape. To come here, and then talk about the world I am escaping from, would be detri to my mental.
> 
> Now, if you will excuse me, I need to go stick my head back in the sand.
> 
> Saaabeeeeenaaa


How could one _not_ like yodeling such a "yodel-able" name? 

My contributions to the nut board have tapered off - A lot of it is the same old stuff, over and over.

DrewDaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaane!


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## JustDoIt (Feb 2, 2004)

Sabine said:


> Just Do It's confusion, and even more so, her explanation of the confusion, has left me so confused.


Tell me about it! I think I can walk around for days in either a state of perpetual confusion or total obliviousness. I need to figure out if this behavior correlates with my monthly cycle


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## kept man (Jan 13, 2004)

*It's not all that bad*

Hey now ... the Socio-paths are pretty par for the course around here.

Is it repetitive? Sure. But not any more so than any other forum on this site relative to the their number of threads, I would say.

Are they (we) crazy? Sure. But I find this tends to make people more interesting in general. Not that there aren't crazies elsewhere.

Can they be aggressive, and kinda nasty? Sure, but again, not more so than folks in other forums. And while maybe it's just me, I feel better marginally better about people fighting over socio-political-religious issues, as opposed to bike warranties, the relative importance of lighter parts, brand/riding style clique-iness, who can/can't fix what, etc ...

Sniff sniff ... no, it's just allergies, really. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I find just as much of the cruelty of the world reflected in the other forums on this site - except that the topics are more trivial, which actually works to depress me more.

... and Drew, come home, darling ... we miss you and your clever remarks so ...


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## Julianna (Mar 5, 2004)

*Well, Speak Up! ;D*


Hallo Grrl,

So, you simply leave me to be fending off attacks by myself? HAHAHA! Seriously, speak your mind grrl. I have with you chatted and I know you to be able to hold your own!

The way I approach the room is that I have my personal beliefs. These I shall change not! And each of them feels as do I in that our beliefs shall never be altered. So we banter about and I attempt to make my point and they make theirs and that is that.

Now, I admit I am well-read and versed in history and world events. And I can with anyone hold my own on architecture and theory. Movies of current pop-status? LOL! No Way! And just whom might Brittney be making sex? Who Cares? HAHAHA!

But I know what it is like to kiss the cheek of a bald-headed nine-year old grrl the night before she dies of cancer. And I know what it is like to taste blood and to look into the hollow stare of a person for whom life is no more.

So the boys in that forum? No problem! ;D

TOODLES!

Julianna ​


JustDoIt said:


> Yo, Julianna! Actually, I lurk there quite a bit. A lot of those guys are very well versed in US and world history. I like reading what I consider extremist views on both sides... and the thoughtful ones in the middle. My main problem there is 1) I don't have enough time for this forum, bits and pieces of the others, and that one, 2) I'm NOT very knowledgable when it comes to history and politics and even current events, 3) I feel more comfortable talking from personal experience. "Toodles"


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## Drewdane (Dec 19, 2003)

kept man said:


> ... and Drew, come home, darling ... we miss you and your clever remarks so ...


There there, KM - you know I can't stay away!


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

Drewdane said:


> My contributions to the nut board have tapered off


Wait. There's a Men's Lounge?


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## Drewdane (Dec 19, 2003)

*Lol!*



catzilla said:


> Wait. There's a Men's Lounge?


BEAUTIFUL!!!


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## Bikehigh (Jan 14, 2004)

Hi ladies. I happen to date one of the women who posts here, so I feel a little odd about this, and I don't want her to think I'm invading her space. I introduced her to mountain biking, and MTBR this past winter, and we ride together on the weekends, so I figure if she needs advice from me she can ask me in person. If she asks for advice here, I'll not respond unless she invites me to. I do enjoy lurking here once in a while. It's interesting, and since I ride with a woman, I figure it'll help me gain some insight into what she's going through, not just as a newbie, but as a woman as well. I even felt inclined to respond to one of the topics earlier today. I hope you don't mind, and I hope she doesn't mind. Just let me know if you do.


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

We have three cycling related businesses, a shop, a design and manufacturing company, and a festival.


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## Mtnbikenmama (Apr 1, 2004)

*Thanks Screampint*



screampint said:


> We have three cycling related businesses, a shop, a design and manufacturing company, and a festival.


Very sweet, you all must enjoy your work.


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## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

Sabine said:


> ..... 3rd world refugees who had to come here in a rubber raft and work in a potato farm and peck on the keys with a pencil in our mouths....
> 
> Sabine


Laughed my self silly at that!

As noted, if/when I lurk in and around here, it's while looking for info. regarding women's cycling issues, for my wife. Advice from the ladies goes WAY further than from me!

"Just lift up the front wheel, pedal a bit to get some oompf..." She loved this gem of coaching wisdom I gave while out on a trail.... Some folks (men and women both) just don't get it sometimes, I being one that _usually_ doesn't get it!


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