# Brakes XT or Saint for a Big Guy



## blown240 (Nov 4, 2009)

Im 6'2" about 250 with my gear, Riding a 07 Yeti 575. I have Hayes 9 brakes, but they are completely worn out.

I have 200mm rotors front and rear.

I am debating between XT and SAINT. From what I have read, they are both really good brakes, but the Saint has more power and better modulation. The Saints are $130 MORE front and rear.

I ride mostly AM stuff, and once or twice a year I go to Bootleg Canyon in NV. The Hayes 9 have left me wanting more brake several times.

Which do I get XT or Saint?

Thanks!


----------



## Ross1200 (Mar 27, 2014)

I'm 250 fully loaded and use xt 180 front and back. Never felt the need for more brake. Mainly trail riding. If I slam them on, I stop quick. 

That being said, I've never tried saints. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nate3510 (May 21, 2009)

blown240 said:


> Im 6'2" about 250 with my gear, Riding a 07 Yeti 575. I have Hayes 9 brakes, but they are completely worn out.
> 
> I have 200mm rotors front and rear.
> 
> ...


I'm the same size as you and I've been using XT's for years with no issues what so ever. I use them at Downieville and Northstar and haven't wanted anything more.


----------



## Joules (Oct 12, 2005)

I'm about 260 including gear and have Saints on 2 bikes. I've never thought "yeah, I wish I had less brake" nor worried about the slight difference in weight. The only real downside to Saint or Zee vs XT is that pads are almost twice the price. 

After spending a few months last year on a set of Guides that would fade to the point I was scared to do more laps, I went back to Saint, and will never cheap out on brakes again - I'd much rather have more than I need than less. 

Zees might be a more fair comparison to XTs; the differences between Saint and Zee brakes are mostly cosmetic with Zee being more similar to m780 and Saint more like m980, and that would cut the price gap to about $60 for the set. (the only reason I got my second set of Saints was because Jenson had them for the same price as Zee).


----------



## Psycho1 (Aug 26, 2014)

Xt here. 6'4 220 with gear. Metal sintered pads. I don't burn through pads every couple weeks now


----------



## blown240 (Nov 4, 2009)

Now you guys have me thinking about Zee and XTR too. LOL I guess too many options is better than not enough!

I have always been like Joules though, no such thing as too much brakes... Maybe the ZEE is the ticket if the only real difference is cosmetics and reach adjustment.


----------



## blown240 (Nov 4, 2009)

Looking at Jensons site, and using my 15% off coupon Zee is about $50 more than XT. 

With the Rotors I am looking at, the XT is $198, ZEE $247, XTR $290, and Saint $326.

Im not sure that Saint is worth $80 more than Zee. But ZEE is probably worth $50 over XT.

XTR is too much $$$ to save some weight....


----------



## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

285 and running XT...no complaints at all. My Hopes are better...but the XT are a lot cheaper and work well. Never used the Saints so no comment.


----------



## Guest (Apr 6, 2016)

blown240 said:


> Looking at Jensons site, and using my 15% off coupon Zee is about $50 more than XT.
> 
> Im not sure that Saint is worth $80 more than Zee. But ZEE is probably worth $50 over XT.


your assessment is correct from a value stance.


----------



## blown240 (Nov 4, 2009)

nvphatty said:


> your assessment is correct from a value stance.


So that leaves me at Zee or Saint then. Does the Zee have the same modulation as the Saint? If the Saint has better modulation that the Zee, thats worth a lot.


----------



## Guest (Apr 6, 2016)

blown240 said:


> So that leaves me at Zee or Saint then. Does the Zee have the same modulation as the Saint? If the Saint has better modulation that the Zee, thats worth a lot.


a good read.

Back Issue | Grouptest: Six of the best disc brakes | ENDURO Mountainbike Magazine


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

nvphatty said:


> a good read.
> 
> Back Issue | Grouptest: Six of the best disc brakes | ENDURO Mountainbike Magazine


^ thanks for that. confirms my belief that (and repeated purchase of) SLX/XT brakes are ridiculously good for the money! especially when you buy them from europe for less than $100 a pair.

the ones i ordered came without finned pads, but that's an easy upgrade. check the specs, not sure how the Zee's come?

https://www.merlincycles.com/disc-brakes-81175/?brand=shimano


----------



## Fam Money (Apr 26, 2010)

SLX here at 6'2" 265-275lbs. naked. Can't say I've had any issues stopping. If you don't mind spending more go for it but the Deore/SLX/XT brakes should suffice.


----------



## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

I ride XT's , no problemo. anywhere from 260 - 280 lb.


----------



## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

SLX. The choice for the rider who wants near-as-makes-no-difference to XT performance for less cash. Most of my UK riding mates have gravitated to the SLX brakes in the last couple of years and not one of them has complained. I'm your weight and I like them.


----------



## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

Even the SLX with XT Rotors and Metallic pads work for me (235lb, 6'2").
The closest thing to 'best of both worlds' is probably the Guide RS in that price range - it's a four-pot caliper brake like the Zee/Saint, but has slightly better modulation than the XT/LX/DX line from Shimano. If ultimate power is a question 180/180 or 203/180mm rotors should do the trick.


----------



## phattruth (Apr 22, 2012)

At 250# I ride Deore brakes and the powers no different than XTR. Modulation is about the only thing lacking. If I had money to burn, I'd buy a set of Hopes.


----------



## jncunha (May 31, 2015)

I ride with a pair of M785 XT. I used to weight as much as you do. They never failed me. I only do XC.


----------



## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I have Deore, XT, and Hopes. If you have the cash, Hopes are an AWESOME brake. Not only from performance aspect, but they make anything from shimano look like department store toy. 

Deore are ok, but they are cheap and use cotter pins in place of screws to hold the pads in.


----------



## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

tehllama said:


> Even the SLX with XT Rotors and Metallic pads work for me (235lb, 6'2").
> The closest thing to 'best of both worlds' is probably the Guide RS in that price range - it's a four-pot caliper brake like the Zee/Saint, but has slightly better modulation than the XT/LX/DX line from Shimano. If ultimate power is a question 180/180 or 203/180mm rotors should do the trick.


Guides have less power than XT. 4 Pistons with less piston area than the 2 piston Shimanos. Zees have way more power and much better modulation than Guides. It's no comparison. XTs are on the Guide level performance wise but cost less. The best of all worlds is the Zees. They have more power than pretty much any other brake out there yet better modulation and so much better control.


----------



## Joules (Oct 12, 2005)

blown240 said:


> So that leaves me at Zee or Saint then. Does the Zee have the same modulation as the Saint? If the Saint has better modulation that the Zee, thats worth a lot.


Modulation is the same. The differences are appearance, [very slight] weight, reach adjust with a knob vs needing a allen (which doesn't even seem like a feature to me; I'd rather not have the knob), and the free stroke adjustment that no one uses. I'd spend the extra $80 on a rt-99 front rotor (if you have centerlock hubs) before spending on more expensive brakes.


----------



## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

All of the 2 Piston Shimanos from Deore and up have the same power and modulation. The difference is features and weight between the various models and they're all good including the Deores. Guides are 4 piston but have less piston area than Shimanos 2 piston brakes so there's no advantage there for having 4 Pistons. The Shimanos are just a little more powerful, not enough to influence a buying decision. Guides have slightly better modulation than XTs and less than Zees. 

The Zees and Saints have about 20% more piston area and have a lot more power and that power is much easier to modulate. I've never had or tried a better brake whether it's for trail, XC, or downhill. Once you try them you realize this is what brakes should feel like. There's so much reserve capacity that the lever feel does not change from the beginning of an 8,000' descent to the end of it. You get to where you no longer think about the brakes because you know they will always be there. 

With their larger pads, they last nearly twice as long as the smaller 2 piston pads. The extra power is so nice on extended downhills, it's always one finger braking no matter how hard you have to brake and no matter how steep and long the downhill. Even with the extra power I'm less likely to go over the bars or accidentally lock a tire with the Zees. They are extremely linear. 

The XTs are a great brake but I can say with full confidence and especially with a heavier person you will be happier with Zees. Sometimes you don't know what you're missing until you try it. I was very happy with my XTs but now I could never go back to them. The Zees allow me to ride faster and brake later. Not just because of the power but because of the control and I admit it's nice not having to apply as much pressure to stop, maybe I'm just lazy. The XTs feel a little underpowered for my weight when having to do a full on balls to the wall stop. They will cause an endo if I want, but I have to really clamp down on the levers. Before trying the Zees I was content with the power but just like a car, you should not have to push super hard to reach maximum braking.

With the 203mm Icetech rotors and Zee brakes I'm able to run fined resin pads instead of metal on those 8,000' drops and never worry about fade or ever think about brakes. When you get used to these, XTs and Guides will feel under powered. I'm 245lbs but even if I was 145 I would still run the Zees. They're just better all around.

Saint vs Zee, performance is identical. You can see in some of the mag tests that power is identical. One had the Zees having more power but that's a fluke, within the measurement error since they are essentially the same brake. The Saints have a couple additional features like tool free reach adjust and free stroke adjust. The Zees have the hole there for reach adjust with a blank screw. All you have to do is find a screw that fits and you have the reach adjust. The Saints are a little lighter as well. I think by themselves the Saints look better. I probably would have gone with them for the looks alone but on my particular bike, the Zees looked better installed and it's easier to find deals on Zees. I got mine for about $150 each with adaptor.

I doubt you will be disappointed with XTs or any of their 2 pot offerings as they are still more powerful than most with decent modulation and great reliability. But if you go with Saints or Zees it's unlikely you will ever look at another brake again. I wanted to stress that in this case "too much power" is not a bad thing because it's so linear. There's no downside to it like accidentally putting yourself over the bars or having an on/off feel. 

I agree with others that rotors (larger rotors and better rotors) will make more difference in thermal performance and power (most of the time) than brakes and the rotors are much cheaper. I know you said you're already running 200mm rotors and that you need to replace the brakes anyway, but I think it's important to stick with the larger rotors whether it's what you already have or something like an Icetech that will run a little cooler on average for a given size.


----------



## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

I have to ask, is "blown 240" a car you drive?


----------



## Guest (Apr 7, 2016)

*OneSpeed* said:


> ^ thanks for that. confirms my belief that (and repeated purchase of) SLX/XT brakes are ridiculously good for the money! especially when you buy them from europe for less than $100 a pair.
> 
> the ones i ordered came without finned pads, but that's an easy upgrade. check the specs, not sure how the Zee's come?


it's a shame ZEE was not tested along with the others. Another couple item's worthy of some interest are galfer pads Galfer Bike: Brake Pads and a high performance fluid such as Motul RBF 600. Both are highly regarded within the motorcycle industry as upgrades to OEM that are capable of withstanding the rigors of race conditions.


----------



## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

jonshonda said:


> Hopes are an AWESOME brake. Not only from performance aspect, but they make anything from shimano look like department store toy.


haha....so true.


----------



## Guest (Apr 7, 2016)

jonshonda said:


> I have Deore, XT, and Hopes. If you have the cash, Hopes are an AWESOME brake. Not only from performance aspect, but they make anything from shimano look like department store toy.





Nubster said:


> haha....so true.


I agree the Hopes are machined marvels and appeal to the eye is great also but performance wise they are on par with shimano / sram / magura formula1, atleast according to this extensive test @ hopes own facility.
Back Issue | Grouptest: Six of the best disc brakes | ENDURO Mountainbike Magazine


----------



## Joules (Oct 12, 2005)

nvphatty said:


> a high performance fluid such as Motul RBF 600.


I'd never heard of upgrading your brake fluid before, but it makes sense in theory. But if I'm reading correctly that fluid is Glycol-based (DOT fluid), which would be a really bad idea in Shimano brakes at least according to Shimano and everyone else I've read offer an opinion.


----------



## Guest (Apr 7, 2016)

Joules said:


> I'd never heard of upgrading your brake fluid before, but it makes sense in theory. But if I'm reading correctly that fluid is Glycol-based (DOT fluid), which would be a really bad idea in Shimano brakes at least according to Shimano and everyone else I've read offer an opinion.


Brake lines, pads are all avail in aftermarket so too are fluids for certain applications and yes Motul is DOT4.


----------



## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

nvphatty said:


> I agree the Hopes are machined marvels and appeal to the eye is great also but performance wise they are on par with shimano / sram / magura formula1, atleast according to this extensive test @ hopes own facility.
> Back Issue | Grouptest: Six of the best disc brakes | ENDURO Mountainbike Magazine


My actual experience owning both Hopes and XT's...Hopes > XT's on all accounts except that they use DOT fluid rather than mineral oil. And that's only an issue when you need to flush and/or bleed which is rare. The brake fluid goes bad once the container is opened. But that's not really a performance issue. Just a PITA and waste issue. Oh...and I will say that XT's are a little easier to bleed as well. But again...not a performance issue and not something that comes into play very often.


----------



## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

Joules said:


> I'd never heard of upgrading your brake fluid before, but it makes sense in theory. But if I'm reading correctly that fluid is Glycol-based (DOT fluid), which would be a really bad idea in Shimano brakes at least according to Shimano and everyone else I've read offer an opinion.


Yes it would be. Shimanos with DOT fluid last for a few minutes before the seals are toast. It's an extremely quick failure. It's literally that bad. I've put a seal in DOT fluid for a minute and then rinsed it off with mineral oil and it continued to disintegrate. If I were in a bind I would literally run water in the brakes long before DOT fluid. I've actually had to do this before and it's obviously compatible with the seals.

There are two points to make... Shimano has excellent heat management in the caliper. Fluid boiling is a non issue. It won't happen. The pads fade before the fluid boils. Stock is all you will ever need.

Shimano pads are excellent, especially those made for the Zee/Saint brakes. IMO they've better than anything you will find in the aftermarket plus, the aftermarket does not make any correct finned pads. Their two main compounds are great. You have a resin that's closer to a semi-metallic in composition that lasts for a long time, is very hard to fade, does not require heat to work at full power, and is very quiet. Their sintered metal pads last a long time, are near impossible to fade, are quiet for a metal pad, and don't require much heat to get to full power. I absolutely love their compounds. I've had far less luck in the aftermarket with some that I'm surprised they're allowed to sell for safety reasons they faded so quickly.

The aftermarket finned pads do not attach the fins correctly and heat transfer will suffer. They're not bonded, you just have a reusable backing plate that sits there behind the pad with fins on it. Probably better than no fins but they definitely took the cheap, lower performance way out.

That's the great thing about Shimano brakes. You don't need to upgrade anything like fluid or pads unless they come with non finned and you feel the need for finned pads.


----------



## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

nvphatty said:


> Brake lines, pads are all avail in aftermarket so too are fluids for certain applications and yes Motul is DOT4.


The point is you recommended a DOT fluid that would ruin the guy's brakes that you were replying to and pads that are far inferior to the awesome factory finned pads that come with Zees. You are recommending things that are going to hurt people or at the least cost them money.

Motul is a thick DOT 4 which is already twice as heavy as DOT 5.1. As a courtesy I would let people know this if recommending them for a DOT 5.1 system in case they live in a cold climate. It will work in a DOT 5.1 system but it wouldn't be my choice in all conditions. It's best when you have experience with the things you recommend. Then you know any consequences that might pop up. If you "upgrade" the fluid in your Zees to RBF600 I will say nothing the next time you recommend it for someone with Shimanos.


----------



## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

nvphatty said:


> it's a shame ZEE was not tested along with the others. Another couple item's worthy of some interest are galfer pads Galfer Bike: Brake Pads and a high performance fluid such as Motul RBF 600. Both are highly regarded within the motorcycle industry as upgrades to OEM that are capable of withstanding the rigors of race conditions.


Saints were tested. Same exact thing performance wise.


----------



## Guest (Apr 7, 2016)

BuickGN said:


> Saints were tested. Same exact thing performance wise.


yes we know know-it all, post wasn't necessary so just move along thank you.


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2016)

BuickGN said:


> The point is you recommended a DOT fluid that would ruin the guy's brakes that you were replying to and pads that are far inferior to the awesome factory finned pads that come with Zees.
> I will say nothing the next time you recommend it for someone with Shimanos.


Instead of always pontificating take your own advice^^^ and spare us the rhetoric and demeaning attitude.


----------



## blown240 (Nov 4, 2009)

BuickGN: thanks so much for the replies! I'm planning on ordering Zee's in the morning with some fresh 203mm shimano rotors. 

And I used to drive a supercharged Volvo 240. Now it's a 61 Chevy panel truck.


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2016)

blown240 said:


> BuickGN: thanks so much for the replies! I'm planning on ordering Zee's in the morning with some fresh 203mm shimano rotors.


not sure with who your ordering but jensen has good pricing.

Shimano Zee BR-M640 Disc Brake > Components > Brakes > Mountain Disc Brakes | Jenson USA


----------



## blkangel (Aug 8, 2014)

blown240 said:


> Looking at Jensons site, and using my 15% off coupon Zee is about $50 more than XT.
> 
> With the Rotors I am looking at, the XT is $198, ZEE $247, XTR $290, and Saint $326.
> 
> ...


Jenson's 15% off coupon. That coupon is only for 15% off a full price item right? If so that will not work on the Zee's as it is already "discounted". I found that the Jenson coupon is not very useful as most of the stuff on their site is already discounted.


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2016)

blkangel said:


> Jenson's 15% off coupon. That coupon is only for 15% off a full price item right? If so that will not work on the Zee's as it is already "discounted". I found that the Jenson coupon is not very useful as most of the stuff on their site is already discounted.


correct on all counts.


----------



## blown240 (Nov 4, 2009)

Ya, I just saw that. Still a decent price at $116.99

I was going to get 2 of the SLX rotors, but they only have one. I will call tomorrow to see when they will get more...


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2016)

blown240 said:


> Ya, I just saw that. Still a decent price at $116.99


yup thats where i purchased mine @ that pricing.


----------



## blown240 (Nov 4, 2009)

I see that Blue Sky has 203mm Hayes rotors for $10. Are hayes rotors basically the same as the SLX?


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2016)

blown240 said:


> I see that Blue Sky has 203mm Hayes rotors for $10. Are hayes rotors basically the same as the SLX?


never used hayes rotors so i can't say how they compare with SLX.


----------



## blown240 (Nov 4, 2009)

The SLX and Hayes look very similar.


----------



## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

'Upgrading' brake fluid on mountain bikes because it's something you do on a track motor bike? 
Waste of time, effort and money for no discernible improvement for 99.9% of mountain bike riders.


----------



## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Not sure how much with gear but I carry enough to be almost prepared for doomsday but off the bike I am 220 lbs and I have no problems with deore brakes with 200mm ice tech rotor in the front.


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2016)

TooTallUK said:


> 'Upgrading' brake fluid on mountain bikes because it's something you do on a track motor bike?
> Waste of time, effort and money for no discernible improvement for 99.9% of mountain bike riders.


no not really, the trackday bike/race bike is a point of reference where it is a very common scenario with a high success rate, hence it's a viable option for those experiencing fade issues on mtb be it pads or fluid, so in short something to consider not a must type deal.


----------



## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Fwiw, I went from 180mm rotors in rear to 160 because I found it was too easy to lock the rear up, and that isn't really what I wanted. 160 had more than enough bite to perform as desired.


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2016)

jonshonda said:


> Fwiw, I went from 180mm rotors in rear to 160 because I found it was too easy to lock the rear up, and that isn't really what I wanted. 160 had more than enough bite to perform as desired.


if thats what you need for the terrain you ride thats a win-win..


----------



## lwg (Mar 23, 2008)

I'll chime in. While I don't yet have Saints that's what I'll be ordering in the coming weeks. I ride primarily in Western CO and Moab, lots of downhill. Right now I ride slower than I like knowing that my brakes are not quite up to the task of slowing down my 280lb frame. I ride 203/180 but am considering switching to 203/203 when I change brakes as I do get brake fade on the downhill runs currently.

I liken it to the first time I rode a bike with Disc Brakes compared to the old rim brakes. The extra braking ability gave me a major boost in confidence, I don't think us big guys can have too much braking ability.


----------



## blown240 (Nov 4, 2009)

Thanks for all the input guys! I just ordered Zee brakes with 203mm hayes discs ft and rr. They should be here next week!


Now it time to start thinking of going from 3x9 to 1x11......


----------



## lwg (Mar 23, 2008)

blown240 said:


> Thanks for all the input guys! I just ordered Zee brakes with 203mm hayes discs ft and rr. They should be here next week!
> 
> Now it time to start thinking of going from 3x9 to 1x11......


I just went from a 3x9 to a 2x10. Now that I'm getting stronger I don't use the granny all that much. I should probably have went straight to a 1x11 and remove the poorly shifting front derailleur...

Be sure to report back on the brakes. Also, if your willing to wait you can get Saints for about $10 more at Merlin's Cycles.


----------



## blown240 (Nov 4, 2009)

Thanks lwg. I don't want to wait for Merlin to get more and ship them here. The Zee will be great, and if Jenson ships today, I will have them tomorrow or Monday. Either way, I will report back as soon as I get a feel for them.

I plan to do all XT 1x11 with an XTR shifter, and the 1up 50t conversion.


----------



## Sasquatch1413 (Nov 6, 2008)

Just throwing in my 2 cents but I've been running the Deore m615 brakes on a couple of my bikes and they are the best for the money hands down. 200F/180R on my fat bike and 200F/200R on my 36er and they slow my 320 lb arse down well. I have XT's on a RIP9 that I just rode in Moab all week and they worked great 200F/180R too. Always wanted to try the zee's though, can't ever have too much brake


----------



## Dawgprimo (Mar 7, 2004)

go with Saints!


----------



## lwg (Mar 23, 2008)

FYI, I finally got around to ordering the Saints from Merlins cycles. Also decided to upgrade the rear to match the front at 203, so now I'll be running 203/203 front/rear. This should permanently solve my braking woes! Also for those who are wondering shipping from the UK took exactly 2 weeks from order date.


Sent from my Toaster


----------

