# GPS Watches?



## glenymact (Oct 22, 2018)

Hi there,

I'm aware of the dedicated garmin GPS units (etrex10-20-30-35 and edge510-520-820) but has anyone tried to navigate with a preloaded GPS watch? I was thinking something from the Garmin Fenix range. Is it too small of a screen and too cumbersome to navigate with? I am going to be doing the GDMBR next summer and am curious about anyone's experience with said unit. I'll likely make the a better decision after studying the ACA maps.

pro's- Long battery life, use outside of bikepacking, Super portable,

cons - Tiny screen, pricey unit, troublesome to use (id imagine)

Please share your thoughts?

Cheers,

Glen.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

glenymact said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I'm aware of the dedicated garmin GPS units (etrex10-20-30-35 and edge510-520-820) but has anyone tried to navigate with a preloaded GPS watch? I was thinking something from the Garmin Fenix range. Is it too small of a screen and too cumbersome to navigate with? I am going to be doing the GDMBR next summer and am curious about anyone's experience with said unit. I'll likely make the a better decision after studying the ACA maps.
> 
> ...


Probably a little too small...and I'm not sure about the battery life being a "pro." I have an Apple Watch Series 3 and, while I like it a lot, it burns through a lot of juice if you run the GPS app. I can't imagine other manufacturers can do much better with smaller batteries.

But seriously, the Etrex 30, for example, is not a big device and it's not very heavy at all. I think that, even if the watch would work you're really throwing away a lot of capability for a few saved ounces.

I take my Apple Watch on rides because it takes the place of my iPhone, not the GPS. The GPS is sort of standard equipment.

The Apple watch, as it is a phone and does texting, does everything I need from a practical point of view on a backpacking trip. It weighs almost nothing, is waterproof and, after a year of use, has been completely reliable. Plus it charges faster off of a dynamo hub or an outlet. I leave the iPhone at home on short rides and I may solo with it when I do the Tour Divide in 2020.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I could manage just fine with a small screen, assuming the battery life was sufficient. And I agree that there's little to no chance that the battery life on a watch is going to work for long trips.

People who use Edges get around the battery life problem by using supplemental battery packs or wiring them into dynamo hub systems. Not so easy to do that with a watch that relies on a very specific cradle for charging.

Batteries are the major reason why small handhelds like the etrex are standard for bikepacking. I can manage an overnight with my Edge 520 before I need to start dealing with recharging. I have a 20,000mah Anker battery I'll use for that. Dunno how many times it'll recharge my Edge, but it'll recharge a phone 5 or 6 times from empty before it needs recharging.


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## geonny04 (Oct 19, 2018)

You would be very surprised. My galaxy gear 3 lasts me 5 days on bluetooth only mode with settings turned all down and only really used to log steps and rides and hikes etc. Its been great for me for biking. For my hikes in backcountry I use a suunto traverse which has integrated full GPS. I recommend, just for logging rides, that you get a cheaper apple or galaxy watch and strava and call it a day!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

geonny04 said:


> I recommend, just for logging rides,


but that's not what OP asked for...


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Get an ETREX 20. I keep one on the bars of my trail bike and use it every ride. Small enough to be unnoticeable when I am riding and tough enough for serious abuse. The screens are not huge as is especially if you have the backlight off to save power. I wouldn't want to try and navigate with anything smaller while riding.

For the GDR if you started with a set of lithium batteries in the device and carry a spare set you'd be good for a week with some judicious power saving techniques [turning off when you are not moving]. Then just resupply along the route.


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## glenymact (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks for the advice. After a bit of further research i've found that ultra athletes biggest complaint with the Fenix 5x plus (aside from the price $$$) is that you can't charge it while wearing it. This seems to be an issue with ultra marathoners. As a GDMBR rider i can charge it while using it off wrist or at night on from the battery bank. Since i don't care so much about HRM or other features. 

As far as the battery is concerned Garmin's website lists 32 Hours in GPS mode. While for the etrex models the highest is 25 hours. Now people have said with tricks you can make an etrex last for days, so I would assume the same tricks could be applied to the watch (airplane mode, backlight dimming etc...)

Geony04 Thanks for bringing up the suunto traverse, looks like a cool device. The GPS function looks a tad limited (didn't seem to have topo) maybe you could elaborate on your experience with it in the back country. I am not trying to log rides i am trying to actively use the GPS for waypoints using a GPX file. 

Lastly the Garmin fenix 5x plus is cool but expensive. My main question remains as to weather it would be sufficient for waypoint navigation on the GDMBR. I know the screen is small but i would love to hear from somebody with experience on the route as to how crucial turn by turn navigation is? I thought you travel mostly by fire road and that the turns are probably few and far between. I may be able to justify the cost since i could use it for hiking aswell and general data tracking. I am trying to get this sorted before black friday but alternatively i could try to buy a gps device on boxing day. I think in a few years they will have a much better device all around (this device itself can't replace a cellphone but i understand some other smartwatches have sim enabled cell receptors).

Thanks for the input so far everyone!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

glenymact said:


> I know the screen is small but i would love to hear from somebody with experience on the route as to how crucial turn by turn navigation is?


You won't be getting "turn by turn" navigation from any GPS device on the GDR. You'll be following a track, which is a completely different navigation mode. There will be no alerts. You'll need to be looking at your device and observe that the route makes a turn. If you are not looking at the device you won't know you are off route until you do.


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## glenymact (Oct 22, 2018)

vikb said:


> You won't be getting "turn by turn" navigation from any GPS device on the GDR. You'll be following a track, which is a completely different navigation mode. There will be no alerts. You'll need to be looking at your device and observe that the route makes a turn. If you are not looking at the device you won't know you are off route until you do.


Hahaha, you see I am a novice! but I have experience following paper maps for thru hikes and figured technology can only make things a bit easier. I will have the aca paper maps as backup and will be testing the gear i assemble over the winter in the springtime on as many rail trail routes as i can find nearby.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

vikb said:


> You won't be getting "turn by turn" navigation from any GPS device on the GDR. You'll be following a track, which is a completely different navigation mode. There will be no alerts. You'll need to be looking at your device and observe that the route makes a turn. If you are not looking at the device you won't know you are off route until you do.


One benefit of a fitness GPS that can use "courses" (in Garmin's parlance) is that this is possible. Now, logistically for a ride as big as the GDR, it's going to be a huge pain in the ass to set it up to do that, but you can embed turn notifications into a "course" so the GPS will beep and give you a turn indicator. An etrex cannot navigate a "course" this way, so you're correct about that much.

First step is to figure out if the device you want to use can even follow courses. At least the fenix 5x can.

To make it work, you'd have to break the "track" file you want to follow into a separate file for each day. Which means you have to plan heavily and from my understanding of this route...plans are just vague suggestions, anyway. Hurdle number one.

Then, you've gotta load the turn notifications into each day's plan. Load the file into something like RideWithGPS (on the computer) and manually enter each one. For every day of the ride.

Once you have all that figured out, now you need to figure out how much space the files require. Also figure that if you want to use tracking, you have to account for your track files, too. As well as any maps. In addition, you might also want to be aware of the processor load that navigating with a long course file puts on the device. Lots of miles per day, lots of turn notifications, screen redraws are going to load the processor and add to battery drain.

It's not easy with a fitness GPS, but it's possible if you're willing to put the work in to set it up correctly, and if you are able to follow the plan you set for yourself.

But considering the cost of a fenix, you could buy yourself an etrex AND a fitness watch.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Harold said:


> One benefit of a fitness GPS that can use "courses" (in Garmin's parlance) is that this is possible.


Have you actually used turn-by-turn navigation successfully for a long bikepacking trip like the GDR on a fitness watch? I don't see this as a practical navigation approach to a 4000km+ route.

Not only do you have to program every turn of your ride you have to store, upload and manage these files given the memory/space limitations of the device for routes/courses. Then you have to actually trust that you did that all correctly to have confidence you'll get alerted for the next turn.

A more realistic approach if you really wanted to use a watch for navigation on the GDR and are carrying paper maps is to study the maps at camp each night for the next day and pick out any likely turns that'll be problematic so you'll remember to consult the watch more frequently at that point in the day.

I'd still far rather have an ETREX 20 or similar on the bars though.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

vikb said:


> Have you actually used turn-by-turn navigation successfully for a long bikepacking trip like the GDR on a fitness watch? I don't see this as a practical navigation approach to a 4000km+ route.
> 
> Not only do you have to program every turn of your ride you have to store, upload and manage these files given the memory/space limitations of the device for routes/courses. Then you have to actually trust that you did that all correctly to have confidence you'll get alerted for the next turn.
> 
> ...


I have used this method for long (100+ mi) day rides. Longer rides would require doing that for every day. Lots of work, but doable. Would help you learn the route and the turns, anyway.

You basically repeated every limitation I brought up. Yes, you have to do it right, and you have to trust that you did it right. That's what planning and shakedowns are for.

Was I still telling OP that the fenix would be better than the etrex 20 for op's case? No, I didn't say that. Some other model with even more available memory than the fenixes offer would be my choice if I wanted to pursue that. I was simply pointing out that turn notifications are POSSIBLE with the right hardware and setup.

For shorter rides with a need to navigate, courses are absolutely a better way of doing it than just visually following a track. Could be better on singletrack, but it's usable. Is it better for a big ride like GDR? I don't know. I never made that claim. I think if you wanted to test that claim, you would need to try both. Preferably at the same time on the same trip.

I wish that handheld gpses would get the ability to navigate this way.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Harold said:


> I wish that handheld gpses would get the ability to navigate this way.


You can navigate on Garmin handheld GPS units turn by turn using routes. How is a course different than a route? I don't have a Garmin sport watch, but courses look just like routes.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

vikb said:


> You can navigate on Garmin handheld GPS units turn by turn using routes. How is a course different than a route? I don't have a Garmin sport watch, but courses look just like routes.


They are close, but not the same. A course is like a combination between a track and a route. It gives reasonably accurate time and distance to the next turn. You can set it to warn you about turns farther ahead, and get more detailed descriptions of what sort of turn it is (sharp turn vs gradual turn sort of thing, or even a "continue straight" notification if something is unclear). If you use the right system to set it up, you can get road names into the turn notifications, even if you lack a basemap entirely. You can even program it to warn you about additional points along the course like water sources and whatnot.

Routes suck.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## 6thElement (Jul 17, 2006)

You don't need turn by turn for the GDMBR, if sensible you have the maps with you and the route notes.

When I did it many years ago I used a Garmin 705 and just loaded the course segments as needed to visually show me the route which I'd check every so often.


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## Flying_Scotsman (Jul 12, 2011)

vikb said:


> I don't see this as a practical navigation approach to a 4000km+ route.


Neither do I... I have a Fenix 5 and a Oregon 600 and would never imagine following the 'line on a screen' for turn after turn, day after day; this being said, I never have had to try this, YMMV. Oregon or etrex would allow sight of a far richer data set to ensure you are on the right 'track'.

Battery: 32hrs is ambitious, it will certainly last a full days riding, possibly approaching 24hrs+. I do find that it runs my phone battery out if I have bluetooth turned on, using notifications and running live track, I tend to turn this all off if I am going out on an all day ride.

Worth mentioning also that the HRM isnt exactly reliable, unless you run the watch mid-forearm but I note you aren't worried about that.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Flying_Scotsman said:


> I never have had to try this


try it sometime.

I did this kind of thing on a Forerunner 310xt before I bought an Edge 520. Even smaller screen than the fenix, and it was still useful.

Yes, it takes time and effort beforehand to set up. Yes, there are big questions about the capacity of hardware doing this for a big route like the GDMBR. But if riders don't ask the questions and demand more from their hardware, then the manufacturers aren't going to offer it and you'll probably wind up with gimmicky **** you don't want instead.

Is that the right idea for the OP? I never said that. At least with respect to the Edge models, the GDR is going to take too long and will fill up the recording capacity to do it all in one shot.

Granted, it's possible to upload in towns via a phone with bluetooth to open up your track memory again. If you're not racing the Tour Divide, that IS an option. The next step is figuring out how much space each day's riding occupies when converted to a course with turn notifications. We won't know until someone does it.

With respect to the fenix, there's no way you're going to charge it along the ride. While you sleep, sure. But you're not going to be able to keep the charging cable secure while riding to pull that one off. Garmin makes no claims as to its recording capacity, and that's a problem. The fenix 5x has a nice hunk of memory at 32Gb, but no clue what it'll record. It has the capability to navigate a course, at least. It's interesting enough that I think it's worth trying, for someone who's pretty experienced with GPS gear and has enough redundancies in place that they're not relying on it.

But that's a boat load of money to spend when something else is known to be capable of doing the job. And that's what it really comes down to, no? We KNOW that many current handhelds can do the job. For significantly less money than a fenix. The quoted etrex 20x is $200 at msrp. The fenix 5x is $500 after rebate. That's significantly less than half the price. The margin gets even bigger if you compare msrp to msrp. OP could seriously buy a vivoactive smart watch ALSO for the other activities he wants and come in at the same $500 total if he buys the one that can do music (or less without).


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

vikb said:


> Have you actually used turn-by-turn navigation successfully for a long bikepacking trip like the GDR on a fitness watch? I don't see this as a practical navigation approach to a 4000km+ route.
> 
> Not only do you have to program every turn of your ride you have to store, upload and manage these files given the memory/space limitations of the device for routes/courses. Then you have to actually trust that you did that all correctly to have confidence you'll get alerted for the next turn.
> 
> ...


In my most humble opinion, the best way to navigate something like the Tour Divide or other long race that is not on paved roads is to eschew the turn-by-turn navigation (which is going to be sketchy at best) and just have the track displayed on the screen at a sufficient scale where you can see upcoming turns and whether you have missed one. Seems foolproof...although I did miss some turns,.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Ailuropoda said:


> In my most humble opinion, the best way to navigate something like the Tour Divide or other long race that is not on paved roads is to eschew the turn-by-turn navigation (which is going to be sketchy at best) and just have the track displayed on the screen at a sufficient scale where you can see upcoming turns and whether you have missed one.


Agreed. That's what I do.

I tend to know which parts of the ride are going to be tricky for navigation and pay more attention to the GPS at those times. Having a bar mounted Etrex is convenient to glance down at as you ride.


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## albeant (Feb 24, 2004)

I used my Fenix 3 for a 200 mile bikepacking route over the summer and found it very helpful. I loaded the route as a single gpx track, and used the Fenix to navigate and record each day. 

The navigation bug was great. Instead of having to wake my phone regularly, which drains the battery and often requires stopping, I could just glance at the Fenix to verify that I was on route, and get a sense of when to expect a change of direction. 

I was also able to go a couple of days in between charges, and recharging doesn't drain a cache battery much. The charging cradle of the Fenix 3 also allows for charging in use, though that also means a fairly bulky cradle gets added to your pack list.


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## Chippertheripper (Sep 10, 2014)

Ailuropoda said:


> Probably a little too small...and I'm not sure about the battery life being a "pro." I have an Apple Watch Series 3 and, while I like it a lot, it burns through a lot of juice if you run the GPS app. I can't imagine other manufacturers can do much better with smaller batteries.
> 
> But seriously, the Etrex 30, for example, is not a big device and it's not very heavy at all. I think that, even if the watch would work you're really throwing away a lot of capability for a few saved ounces.
> 
> ...


I broke 2 s3 watches before giving up. The first one was a proper smashemup, which also left me with a broken thumb and glue holding my face together, the second the screen popped off intact, and Apple didn't take care of it because they claimed it was impact related...it was not. 
Proceed with caution. 
In the end It was a great device, obviously just not suited for my stupidity.


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## c_kyle (Sep 2, 2005)

Unless your route is dead on, which is 99% unlikely, you don't want to use any navigation functionality because you'll constantly be going off-route and the device will be constantly recalculating and die in like 2hrs. You want to show the route in a colorful line that you can easily see and just ride, keeping your arrow on the colorful line. That's it. Also, while the Fenix may do that just fine, it has a tiny screen, requires a special charger (if it's like my garmin watch) and you can't just throw some AA batteries in it from the gas station if you're unable to charge it. The etrex 20 or 30 is the king of battery life and probably the most popular bikepacking gps; but I use a Oregon 600, which as a larger screen. Old eyes need bigger screens, lol.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

As others have gone over, there are many reasons not to use a Fenix as your navigation device for long bikepacking trip. I have a Fenix 5 and it's my everyday watch, and also gets used for hiking and such. I can download a track onto it to follow, although my 5 doesn't have a map, so I'm just following a line on a blank screen. The X and Plus models do have a basemap though. Looking at it every once in a while while hiking is no problem, but I can't imagine that being fun while riding. I guess you could rig up some kind of bar mount though. I think the biggest issue is going to be memory capacity though. There's a reason why the Etrex series has become the go-to GPS unit for bikepacking!


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## Selinda (Nov 29, 2018)

I would like the apple watch s4. Only $165.

Apple Watch S4 GPS 44mm - Space Grey Aluminum / Black Band [AS4456087] - $165.00 : The best Apple iPhone retailer/wholesale,specialized in electronics-Applesina.com, ES Wearhouse Apple products,iPhone,iPad,Mac


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

After more thought, however, I’ll probably still take my iPhone on long bikepacking trips, simply because it has a camera. Otherwise I’d have to take the watch and a camera which is not saving me any weight 

Plus, as a responsible adult who really cannot be ever completely free from his career I sometimes have to “take care of business” on the trail. Hard to do on a watch. 

Plus the iPhone can be used in a pinch as a backup GPS. I actually usually carry my spare Etrex 20 as a backup. It weighs nothing without batteries.


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## glenymact (Oct 22, 2018)

*OP Update*

I did use the fenix 5x plus for the tour divide race. I finished in 24.5 days. It did give me trouble at first but that was because i was getting used to it. Once i had the chopped gpx file which was 7 separate 10k point courses the navigation was awesome! I would get about 2 full days of riding without having to charge it and if i did have to charge it i could charge it up in like 2 hours of riding with my son 28 dyno hub. I did make a 3d printed mount to hold the watch on the aero bar bridge. The screen size was not an issue. I took off features like auto zoom for the mapping because i found that it would zoom in too close very often. But the hill climb features were pretty good, not as good as an etrex but still very useable. It was nice to record my activities and navigate on the same device. It was also nice to have the temp reading and altitude etc. I had my phone on me anyways so some could argue that i could have just used the phone but overall i was happy with my decision. I spent 2-3x as much as a dedicated gps unit but now i have a watch which i will use for more than just bikepacking. Overall i would actually recommend it to anyone who asked. My only issue was in Fernie while loading the 10k resolution full course the loading bar looks like it freezes. If you just wait longer instead of getting frustrated and soft resetting all the time it will eventually load. I did soft reset it so many times i corrupted the gpx file. I had to erase it and reload it at a local bike shop. From that point forward i had no problems, that i would say was user error because i was not yet familiar with how to use the watch every day. I also broke the watch holder bracket in a crash. The bracket broke at the knuckle joint but i had designed the bracket to work with the straps in case that happened. Ultimately i could have super glued it back together but i wasn't thinking. My thoughts are these watches are only going to get better and they will become even more feasible as navigation devices. I am glad i took the risk and tried it. I spoke with a very knowledgeable agent from garmin customer support about my plan and he agree'd that the watch should be able to handle the task. Thanks for all your input! Happy trails!


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## ahokin (Sep 23, 2019)

Selinda said:


> I would like the apple watch s4. Only $165.
> 
> Apple Watch S4 GPS 44mm - Space Grey Aluminum / Black Band [AS4456087] - $165.00 : The best Apple iPhone retailer/wholesale,specialized in electronics-Applesina.com, ES Wearhouse Apple products,iPhone,iPad,Mac


Anyone try the series 5 yet? Wonder if the battery life is better, especially with the always-on display.


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## JimmyAsheville (Oct 21, 2018)

since you revived his thread, anyone who happens to have Blue Cross/Blue Shield for health insurance can get 35 percent off any Garmin product with free shipping. FYI. in case price is holding anyone back


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