# Don't hate it because it's beautiful.



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Thought y'all might be interested in the first prototype of a 29" DH bike from Devin Lenz.



* 175mm travel on both ends.
* 14.25" BB height.
* 65.5* HTA.
* 17.25" CS.
* 6 speed, 13-28 cassette.
* 38.5# as pictured.

I've got about 6 hours on it so far, and should be able to get another 6 or 8 the next few days. Then it's off to Whistler where the real work (um, I mean _testing_) begins...

MC


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## Adrien (Jan 13, 2009)

that's nuts, is there really that many bonuses to a 29er? isn't it just increasing the chance that you'll obliterate your wheels?


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

why 6 speed cassette? Other than that it sounds completely normal :skep:

What rims and tires are you using?


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## 2clue (Jun 9, 2007)

Well if you have ever ridden a 29er you would know how easy it just goes over things. With a DH bike at high speed I can see a advantage to have a 29 front wheel. As for rear wheel not sure. 69er!


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## NoahColorado (Aug 3, 2004)

That looks sick! Does bear a striking resemblance to a Trek Session, but that's not a bad thing. I'd love to try that, any at interbike?


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## cactuscorn (Feb 5, 2004)

how ya been man? long time.

gotta admit, im skeptical of those big ass wheels on a dh rig for a few reasons. i wont blast it not havin tried it but yer gonna have to sell me. the hoop question is a good 1 but what about tires? thats gotta be a real hurdle at this time. looks like ya have some kinda xc-ish lookin proto rubber. i know kenda does the nev in a 2.2 29'er but not many guys can get away with small volume 1 ply tires. 

all the best to you and the lenz crew on this project. i know youll put it through the ringer and have a blast doin it. enjoy the wizz.


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## cactuscorn (Feb 5, 2004)

NoahColorado said:


> Does bear a striking resemblance to a Trek Session


totally! except for the geo, top tube. seat tube, rockers. stays, rear pivot, main pivot, floating shock config, 12x150 axle, wheels and tires, gearing....... well, they are both black. mostly anyway.

just bustin yer balls old pal.


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## Renovatio (Nov 22, 2007)

Curious to know which wheels and tires you chose.


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

I smell fresh tacos!

Sorry, I usually don't post such crap, but I have a hard enough time keeping my 26 inch wheels straight. I don't think this is for me...


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## danyiluska (Sep 20, 2006)

maybe it's nice to roll over things easier, but the extra height it gives is makes the steep descents/downhills more scary...


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Adrien said:


> that's nuts, is there really that many bonuses to a 29er? isn't it just increasing the chance that you'll obliterate your wheels?


I don't think it's for everyone, but the ride quality is different enough that I suspect that a large percentage of those that can *actually try one* will get it. They still may not buy one, but at least they'll get it.



Flystagg said:


> why 6 speed cassette? Other than that it sounds completely normal :skep:
> 
> What rims and tires are you using?


Forgot to mention that the rear hub is a 12 x 150 w/Maxle. So the wheel is dishless to begin with, BUT it also uses a SS freehub body (thus the 6 cogs), so the flange spacing is MASSIVE. 


That means a burly, burly, burly rear wheel without added weight. I'm sure someone can kill it, but it's going to take some doing.

Rims are Salsa Gordo's, tires are proto WTB dual ply 2.6's.



NoahColorado said:


> That looks sick! I'd love to try that, any at interbike?


Should be at least one at Interbike, but you can try it locally sooner...



cactuscorn said:


> gotta admit, im skeptical of those big ass wheels on a dh rig for a few reasons. i wont blast it not havin tried it but yer gonna have to sell me.


I'm not big on giving sales pitches. One lap down a good, fun, steep, chunky hill and you'll know whether it's for you or not.

I spent the day on Saturday doing laps with a big group. Everyone was curious about it, and I had to resort to being a d!ck to people to get my bike back! Everyone that rode it raved about the smoothness and bottomlessness, and every single person was reluctant to go back to their own bikes. Several of this group were self-proclaimed "29" skeptics" and every single one of them came away impressed and wanting to ride it again.



Uncle Cliffy said:


> I have a hard enough time keeping my 26 inch wheels straight. I don't think this is for me...


Definitely isn't for everyone.

Worth mentioning--I've been experimenting for years on my own bikes, plus building oodles of 29" wheels for clydes the past 6 years. I've found a few good formulas to solve '_the wheel problem_' for most folks. They're a lot burlier than most folks would believe, including a few of the 250# guys that piloted this bike yesterday.

I've been riding a similar (but lighter) set on my 6 x 6 29" bike for the last year locally and on all of the regional chunkfests. 





(_not all of me, but all are the same wheelset..._)

I've dented both rims and needed to do minor truing, but they're still round (except for the dents) and true, with good tension.

We'll see how long this set lasts--I can always go burlier with a set of Kris Holm rims.

G'night.

MC


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## OGJON (Apr 15, 2009)

I'm not a fan of curved tube frames, however, your bike does look good.


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

Sounds like its all downhill worthy kit on that bike, I was getting a little tired of the fake 29" dh bikes that have been popping up (niner wfo).


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

Interesting.... I'd like to try one someday.. I think it would be fun, at least.


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## latedropbob (Aug 6, 2007)

We had a rider in AZ who built up one of thoe LENZ DH 29rs with hopes of surviving the rigors of the DH world, she was a devoted 29r rider and hoped that it would fit the bill for the DH appetite. Well, to say after struggling with it Whistler she has since ordered and recieved a DHR and has ripped at least 3 0r 4 days on it in the last week and keeps begging for more. You can read about it on this thread here. HERE! Not doggin the LENZ, but I don't think I'll ever be swinging a leg over a 29r. Good luck with the wagon wheels...


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## tiSS'er (Jan 6, 2004)

SWEET! A flexy Manitou fork with no brace now has even more leverage on it. I bet it's point-and-shoot


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## tiSS'er (Jan 6, 2004)

latedropbob said:


> We had a rider in AZ who built up one of thoe LENZ DH 29rs with hopes of surviving the rigors of the DH world, she was a devoted 29r rider and hoped that it would fit the bill for the DH appetite. Well, to say after struggling with it Whistler she has since ordered and recieved a DHR and has ripped at least 3 0r 4 days on it in the last week and keeps begging for more. You can read about it on this thread here. HERE! Not doggin the LENZ, but I don't think I'll ever be swinging a leg over a 29r. Good luck with the wagon wheels...


Funny you say that, I was in Whistler with her. She never felt comfortable on her Lenz. On Friday she hopped on a RM Flatline and was amazed at how well the bike felt. The lower BB, the tires, suspension, and geometry just made her comfortable. She was going on and on about how well it cornered and "just rolled over stuff".

Needless to say, she was hitting stuff she never thought possible, and she was only on the bike for a few hours. I asked her how many times she has ridden her 29er since the DHR and I got a "I rode it to work today" answer. Funny thing is that we were giving her crap about her 29er earlier in the week.


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## Hesh to Steel (Oct 2, 2007)

I'm sure the responses in this thread are going to get a lot nastier as the day wears on, given the usual response to the 29er DH bike concept on this board. 

I just think it's funny that people think 26" wheels are the be-all end-all standard. Bike tech is always moving forward and it doesn't seem that farfetched to me to think that someone could make a set of DH worthy 29" wheels.


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## latedropbob (Aug 6, 2007)

Here's an interesting article I just found on why big bike companies i.e. santa cruz, norco, spesh, etc. are not making 29r DH bikes. Real interesting.... Not baggin' just researching.


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## Aaron D (Dec 14, 2005)

I'll take one !


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

I'm skeptical, but wouldn't mind giving it a try.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

I'd love to give one a try


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

latedropbob said:


> We had a rider in AZ who built up one of thoe LENZ DH 29rs with hopes of surviving the rigors of the DH world, she was a devoted 29r rider and hoped that it would fit the bill for the DH appetite. Well, to say after struggling with it Whistler she has since ordered and recieved a DHR and has ripped at least 3 0r 4 days on it in the last week and keeps begging for more. You can read about it on this thread here. HERE! Not doggin the LENZ, but I don't think I'll ever be swinging a leg over a 29r. Good luck with the wagon wheels...


Thanks for the link--hadn't seen that.

DG's Lenz is an XC bike, NOWHERE near a DH bike. I know--I have the same 6" bike and I use it as my daily driver. No surprise that she had trouble with it up north--head angle is too steep, CoG is too high, build is too XC--not nearly enough mass to keep her planted.

The bike I've posted here is quite different from the one you're referring to. Still isn't for everyone.

Just sayin'...

MC


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

mikesee said:


> Then it's off to Whistler where the real work (um, I mean _testing_) begins...


Mike, thanks for sharing and keep us posted. I'm going to be building a 29er DH rig very soon after talking with Walt about it. You two guys are on the edge of the future of DH for sure. It doesn't seem so long ago when there was no reason for 29ers in XC; there were no decent tires, no decent rims, no decent forks and it was just a stupid fad. I'm sure DH is different though--because all the hard core to the max DH guys I know told me so. :madman:

Keep us posted for sure.

BTW, which fork is that and what have you done to it to make it work in this application if you don't mind sharing that.

Thanks,
Jay


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## Hesh to Steel (Oct 2, 2007)

The fork looks like a 2009 Manitou Dorado. It has travel adjust so it looks like has the travel lowered from 8" to just under 7.


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## Prettym1k3 (Oct 11, 2005)

Must roll really well, but I imagine that the cornering is probably lacking.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

Looks like an attempt at justifying 29er wheels too me and good luck finding any real DH component manufacturers willing to make a fork for that thing without any of the big DH frame manufacturers like Santa Cruz, Specialized or Intense on board.

Until then its just an adaptation for the sake of saying "29ers can do DH too".

Steering and braking on that thing have got to be a nightmare at 45+ mph, not to mention the standover height looks really, really tall.

Overall the geo specs look more like its a FR 29er than a true DH 29er.


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## miklorsmith (Aug 16, 2006)

I ran into a dude at the North Shore this year at a stop point. He was riding alone, and we started chatting, very cool guy but something seemed different. Everything looked proportional but something was off. I asked about his unusual bike, it was a 29"er Lenz. The guy was 6'9" and 320 pounds, completely proportional to the bike.

I asked him about the wheels, don't remember the particulars but he said he rides the Shore every week and the wheels have been completely bomber, no problems. He said he loves the bike and it works better than anything he's ridden.

We all ride different places with unique styles and needs. I think it's great people are still trying new stuff, without fresh ideas we'd all still be riding road bikes.


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## dbabuser (Jan 5, 2004)

Is that a 32t front ring, or does it just look small in relation to the wheels?


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

sixsixtysix said:


> Looks like an attempt at justifying 29er wheels too me and good luck finding any real DH component manufacturers willing to make a fork for that thing without any of the big DH frame manufacturers like Santa Cruz, Specialized or Intense on board.
> 
> Until then its just an adaptation for the sake of saying "29ers can do DH too".


as opposed to??? aren't all prototypes just an attempt to justify or rule out an idea?


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

sean salach said:


> as opposed to??? aren't all prototypes just an attempt to justify or rule out an idea?


Its been done. They've been raced.

http://www.littermag.com/techno/bcd29er/1.htm

Build the bike to fit the purpose instead of repurposing the bike...


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

soo, if one iteration doesn't work, it's obvious that none of them will? got it.:thumbsup:


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

sean salach said:


> soo, if one iteration doesn't work, it's obvious that none of them will? got it.:thumbsup:


If you actually read that article about why no one makes a 29er DH bike, its pretty obvious that most companies are still trying to get the maximum performance out of 26" wheels on on the World Cup.

It also is stated a couple times (By engineers who know quite a bit more than you and I) that with slack angles, and 200mm of suspension that 29er wheels show no advantage over a 26 wheel and in fact the negatives greatly outweigh the positives.

Idk how much DH experience you have, but I know at 40mph, the last thing I am thinking when flying over stuff is "Wow, I wish I had bigger wheels".


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## ripplemuncher (Dec 6, 2004)

Certainly not for everyone, but some will enjoy it (DH 29er) just for the fun of it, and some, like me, want it because it just fits better. I'm 6.5' tall and have been racing downhill since 1995. 26" bikes feel like kid bikes to me. The only off the peg bike that felt even close to the correct geometry (before 29ers) was my Rotec Pro DH. Most people loathed those bikes for being way too long. Fit me great! I got rid of my other bikes and rode it XC between DH races. After several years the frame cracked, so I built my first full custom bike with 29" wheels. I really wanted a FS bike, but full custom is tricky and expensive, so a hardtail was the best solution at the time. That was 2001-2002 from design to finished bike. I've been riding that bike for the last seven years.










The whole time I have been wishing for heavy duty 29er parts - forks, rims, tires, hubs. Things have been getting better, and 2010 looks like the year the candy store will open. I'm so excited about the products I've been seeing over the last few months. It's like seeing the first 29er wheel ten years ago!

Mikesee, do tell:

Is the Dorado fork user modified for 29er use, or do you have to order it from Manitou in 29er trim?

Also, that hub!!!! I have been building six speed wheels out of 135mm single speed hubs for a while now. Works great for DH applications that are stuck with the narrow 135mm spacing. I have been dreaming of a 150mm option and have come close to calling some folks to see if I could get one custom built. Is that DT a one-off? Can I get one? Can anyone get one? What is the scoop.

As for the front wheel, consider custom offset (to the left) triple clamps and/or wider triples with a custom front hub. An old Mr. Dirt front hub may be an option with different bearings. They have wide flange spacing and NO DISH! Only problem is they were designed for a 17mm axle iirc.

And BTW, I don't know how you can ride those ergons! People, who cares about dissing 29er DH wheels when you can bust Mike's nuts for downhilling with ergons!


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

i read the article a month or so ago. it has all good points made by people who know a hell of alot more about the topic than i do. you undoubtedly know a hell of alot more about downhilling than i do, and i think there's a possibility that i know more about 29" wheels than you do. but neither of us really knows anything beyond conjecture and the limited attempts of one rider and one homemade bike about 29" wheels built for the application of downhill. 

a judy dh used to be considered top of the line for downhill racing, but would barely qualify as a low end xc fork now. if people didn't bother exploring the options of 'bigger', and just worked on perfecting those 3.5" inches of travel, where would we be?


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Will WTB be producing the tire?
Did manitou reduce the travel of the fork for you?
How much clearence do you have from the tire to the botton crown?

Thanks
Chris


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## wasea04 (Apr 2, 2007)

I say "why not," I don't know if it'll work, let's explore options. When suspension came out and disc brakes, etc etc etc many people said it wouldn't work and would not last, so let what works be the deciding factor, NOT what YOU think will work.


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

i keep counting 7 cogs, the chain is on no 2 and there's five higher.Those shale pits are soft soft easy landings, nice and steep ,minimal impact that does't prove how tough the wheels are.strong 29er wheels are gonna be heavy and hard to manuver,and you may need some 250mm rotors to control them on steep shoots.


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

dbabuser said:


> Is that a 32t front ring, or does it just look small in relation to the wheels?


I'd imagine it's a 32. The drivetrain does not need as much development as the bigger wheel will increase it. A 36 or 38T ring up front may end up begin too tall for most applications.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

latedropbob said:


> Here's an interesting article I just found on why big bike companies i.e. santa cruz, norco, spesh, etc. are not making 29r DH bikes. Real interesting.... Not baggin' just researching.


add to the List Canfield ....who were testing a prototype 4 years ago and have not heard a thing since


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

sean salach said:


> neither of us really knows anything beyond conjecture and the limited attempts of one rider and one homemade bike about 29" wheels built for the application of downhill.
> 
> a judy dh used to be considered top of the line for downhill racing, but would barely qualify as a low end xc fork now. if people didn't bother exploring the options of 'bigger', and just worked on perfecting those 3.5" inches of travel, where would we be?


Great points, Sean. None of us really know how this is going to play out. My limited time on it tells me that less travel + a bigger wheel = a smoother, faster, more controlled ride than more travel + a 26" wheel.

On that note, after my ride today I handed the bike off to a licensed Pro DH racer, told him to treat it like it was rented and bring it back to me on Weds. Very curious to hear how that shakes out.



sixsixtysix said:


> If you actually read that article about why no one makes a 29er DH bike, its pretty obvious that most companies are still trying to get the maximum performance out of 26" wheels on on the World Cup.
> 
> It also is stated a couple times (By engineers who know quite a bit more than you and I) that with slack angles, and 200mm of suspension that 29er wheels show no advantage over a 26 wheel and in fact the negatives greatly outweigh the positives.
> 
> Idk how much DH experience you have, but I know at 40mph, the last thing I am thinking when flying over stuff is "Wow, I wish I had bigger wheels".


Very few 29" DH bikes exist because precisely zero 29" dual ply tires exist. That will change in the next few weeks. Also, few people have the $$$ or balls to shave the arch out of a Fox 40 or plunk down the cash for a Dorado. Add up both of those and it's not hard to see why few people have tried this yet.

As to your point about slack angles, 200mm travel, and a big wheel, where are you getting that? I had no idea that anyone had tried a 29" wheel with an 8" fork. Source?

My seat of the pants testing this past weekend tells me exactly the opposite--no matter how much travel you throw at a problem, the bumps, chop, roots, holes, etc... all have to come through the wheels before the suspension matters one iota. You can feel the difference in the first 50 feet, and it's slap-in-the-face obvious as you plow through chunk at any speed--the big wheels don't get hung up, and the suspension isn't forced to work as hard.

As far as doing 40mph on dirt, I'll leave that to you. Scares the piss outta me and it has nothing to do with the bike.



Iceman2058 said:


> I'd imagine it's a 32. The drivetrain does not need as much development as the bigger wheel will increase it. A 36 or 38T ring up front may end up begin too tall for most applications.


Correct--it is a 32. I started with a 36 and just never came close to needing it, and was always overgeared on the flats. Swapped to a 32 and it feels right. For me--YMMV.



ripplemuncher said:


> Is the Dorado fork user modified for 29er use, or do you have to order it from Manitou in 29er trim?
> Also, that hub!!!! Is that DT a one-off? Can I get one? Can anyone get one? What is the scoop.
> As for the front wheel, consider custom offset (to the left) triple clamps and/or wider triples with a custom front hub. An old Mr. Dirt front hub may be an option with different bearings. They have wide flange spacing and NO DISH! Only problem is they were designed for a 17mm axle iirc.
> And BTW, I don't know how you can ride those ergons! People, who cares about dissing 29er DH wheels when you can bust Mike's nuts for downhilling with ergons!


Dorado: I think you have to order it for 29". I talked to one of the enginerds at Manitou today, asking if I could increase the travel to 185 (I have a solid inch between the tire and crown at full bottom, so why not?!) and his description of all that I'd need to do made me want to shy away.

Hub: limited production from DT. I imported 6 of them from Switzerland, and AFAIK they are the only 6 on US soil. Send me an E if you really want one.

As to wider/dishless up front, check this out. Similar idea to what you've described, resulting in a dishless front setup that's probably indestructible for those of us in our pre-lobotomy years.



herbn said:


> i keep counting 7 cogs, the chain is on no 2 and there's five higher.Those shale pits are soft soft easy landings, nice and steep ,minimal impact that does't prove how tough the wheels are.strong 29er wheels are gonna be heavy and hard to manuver,and you may need some 250mm rotors to control them on steep shoots.


That pic was an early experiment on a different bike. The 7 cog setup was just too maxed on both ends, and I couldn't get it to index right. I dropped a cog and all is good with 6 now.

I think I've got a pretty good handle on the wheel situation. Can they be destroyed? *ANY* wheel can be destroyed. Miss a line and plow into the woods or into a boulder field and all bets are off-regardless of wheelsize. I've learned a LOT the past few years about how to make a 29" wheel feel *right* and last when downhilling. Don't take my word for it, but believe in the word of the guys that are out there doing shuttle runs or lift laps all summer long. It may not work for you, and you don't sound that interested in trying, but that doesn't mean it can't work, period. It already is.

As to rotor size, I'm running an 8" front and 7" rear with a set of Hayes Stroker Ace brakes. Massive overkill for me--I'll probably leave the rotors alone and go back to a 2 piston brake. I'll decide in a week--after I'm back from Whistler.



sikocycles said:


> Will WTB be producing the tire?
> Did manitou reduce the travel of the fork for you?
> How much clearence do you have from the tire to the botton crown?


WTB will be producing *two* tires: the oft-reported Kodiak 2.5 and another. Both should be on the market this fall. The Kodiak is, IMO, very good on pure rock (think Slickrock, or Gooseberry) and pretty poopy everywhere else. The 'other' tire is a much, much better all-rounder.

Manitou did the travel reduction and damper/oil fiddling to make the Dorado ramp appropriately.

There is a solid inch between the top of the tire and the bottom of the crown. Note that the crowns are slid all the way "up". Currently getting 175mm of travel, but I think 185 would be easy and totally safe.



SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> add to the List Canfield ....who were testing a prototype 4 years ago and have not heard a thing since


4 years ago there were zero tires, zero rims, 1 (kinda) fork, and zero interest in this sort of thing. It's taken a long time for the components to make it possible to catch up, so to speak. Lance rode one of my old 5" 29"ers and loved it, and said that he'd love to own/ride one as soon as dual ply tires existed to allow the bike to be ridden the way he likes to ride.

Above I made a point of stating that I *know* this bike isn't for everyone. Think about it--what bike is? It still surprises me a bit how many people have popped on here to tell us (with their vast experience) that it'll never work, even though they've never even seen this bike in person, much less swung a leg over it.

MC


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## rep_1969 (Mar 25, 2004)

Were you and your "Lenz crew" riding at WP this past Saturday? I think I saw that bike with a bunch of other Lenz bike riders on Saturday. That bike looks pretty sweet, if it is the one I saw, I was wondering what was odd about it, I guess it was the 29 inch wheels.

On an off note, IF it was you guys at WP on Saturday, you need to tell your crew that skidding isn't a way to control your bike on the DH courses. On more than a couple occassions while resting, I watched the majority of that crew skid into, and around a bunch of turns. I was watching is disbelief as the trails were being torn to shreads. If it wasn't you guys, sorry for bringing it up. Maybe this is me being petty, or just one of my pet peeves, but it was hard to watch.


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## pivotpoint (Mar 25, 2005)

*Alaska...*

Can you ride this bike across AK in record speed?  MC when you get back to GJ i'd like to try this bicycle, it looks pretty cool! Looks pretty shreddy!


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## AlexJK (May 2, 2009)

it looks like the front wheel would hit the DT at full compression to me...

it looks real good though


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

rep_1969 said:


> Were you and your "Lenz crew" riding at WP this past Saturday? I think I saw that bike with a bunch of other Lenz bike riders on Saturday. That bike looks pretty sweet, if it is the one I saw, I was wondering what was odd about it, I guess it was the 29 inch wheels.


Yep, that was us. Lots of odd looks at the bike for sure. The lifties were really perplexed by it--every time we hit the top they'd ask more ?'s about it.



rep_1969 said:


> On an off note, IF it was you guys at WP on Saturday, you need to tell your crew that skidding isn't a way to control your bike on the DH courses. On more than a couple occassions while resting, I watched the majority of that crew skid into, and around a bunch of turns. I was watching is disbelief as the trails were being torn to shreads. If it wasn't you guys, sorry for bringing it up. Maybe this is me being petty, or just one of my pet peeves, but it was hard to watch.


{_sighs_} Not just one of your pet peeves--it was bugging me too. Basically, two of the guys in our group are pretty new to bikes and totally new to downhilling. So they were a bit green, period, but then you compound that with the fact that they come from a moto background (front brake is on the right) and they just couldn't wrap their heads around it in the heat of the moment. So I guess their default was to just avoid the front brake entirely. Every time I saw one of them skidding I made a point to tell them to start using the front brake more.

I hate to say it, but I don't think they ever did.

That said, they both really enjoyed the trails up there, and I *know* that if they were to go back to WP on their own bikes (with brakes set moto style) they'd do much, much better.

MC


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## Captain Snakebite (Aug 17, 2004)

Not sure i would call that a DH bike, looks like a AM bike to me.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Thanks for the link--hadn't seen that.
> 
> DG's Lenz is an XC bike, NOWHERE near a DH bike. I know--I have the same 6" bike and I use it as my daily driver. No surprise that she had trouble with it up north--head angle is too steep, CoG is too high, build is too XC--not nearly enough mass to keep her planted.
> 
> ...


agreed 100%...irrelevant comparison.

If this were analagous, would be like saying a Specialized Stumpjumper not good for Whistler, when a Specialized Demo is available

In addition, its ONE PERSON'S opinion anyway from that thread! who cares!?


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## DurtGurl (Dec 10, 2001)

mikesee said:


> Thanks for the link--hadn't seen that.
> 
> DG's Lenz is an XC bike, NOWHERE near a DH bike. I know--I have the same 6" bike and I use it as my daily driver. No surprise that she had trouble with it up north--head angle is too steep, CoG is too high, build is too XC--not nearly enough mass to keep her planted.
> 
> ...


I wanted to believe that my Lenz Lunchbox would be just fine at Whistler. All my DHing FRer friends tried to talk me out of bringing it but I am quite stubborn. I found out by experience that all you stated above is true... and let me add "too tall" as another adjective for using this bike up north. Renting a DH bike on my last Whistler day opened my eyes to how the ride should feel at a bike park. Don't get me wrong, I still adore the Lunch Lady and it will continue to get a lot of use for all my pedaling rides on our rough n rocky SW trails. But for Whistler, I brought the wrong bike.

I'd be very interested in trying Devin's new DH 29er prototype. I do hope that your DH tester has 29er experience. As a long-time 29er rider, the first rides on my new DH bike with 26" wheels were very odd. I am finally getting used to the "twitchiness" of the little wheels and imagine that your DH tester will feel that the DH 29er is sluggish. I am having to relearn my "roll everything" 29er mentality, and am beginning to get my new little wheels off the ground. The learning curve is steep right now but I'm up for the challenge and am having a blast!!! Also, I'm hoping this will translate into me being a better rider on my 29er bikes. It's all good... a girl can never have too many bikes!!


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Any other choices in forks if someone does not want to shell out for a carbon Dorado or convince Manitou to make one for them?
Maybe a Dorado MY11 or is White Bros coming out with something? A groove race 180mm 29er would be cool.
Wonder if Craig from Avy can make something?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

DurtGurl said:


> let me add "too tall" as another adjective for using this bike up north.


This is what I meant when I wrote (in geekspeak) that your "CoG was too high". CoG = center of gravity.



DurtGurl said:


> ]I do hope that your DH tester has 29er experience.


Yep. He's a fan of the 6" bike as a daily driver, and has been pushing Devin for a true 29" DH race bike. Though I think he wants that fact kept a secret until he's won a few races on it and his competition has to start playing catch-up...

Looking forward to his ride report later--the good, the bad, and the ugly.

MC


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

mikesee said:


> It still surprises me a bit how many people have popped on here to tell us (with their vast experience) that it'll never work, even though they've never even seen this bike in person, much less swung a leg over it.
> 
> MC


Mike, thanks for expanding on all this. As you read in the thread on the Framebuilding Forum, this is absolutely something I plan on doing (hopefully this winter in time for a spring 2010 trip), especially after talking with Walt about it for an hour one afternoon about his experiences.

It doesn't surprise me at all that the naysayers are here talking about 29ers not working--especially if they've never ridden one. It's the same discussion that happened years ago with 29er XC, and I was one of the naysayers then too--even having ridden one around a bit.

How much has to be taken out of a Fox 40 to make a 29er wheel fit in there? Does the whole brace have to come out or is this something that is fairly benign? The fork thing is the biggest hurdle for me at the moment. I'm just not going to shell out $3k for a fork so I can go DH a couple of times/yr. Tires, no problem. Wheels--I'm thinking 36H Flows or Gordos w/ Alpine IIIs and a 150mm in the rear. Those will work fine I'd think.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

jay_ntwr said:


> It doesn't surprise me at all that the naysayers are here talking about 29ers not working--especially if they've never ridden one.


It's also not surprising given the average DH forum reader is at a minimum, semi-retarded, and has no mind to have open to any concept other than what they see in a Mountain Dew commercial


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## ripplemuncher (Dec 6, 2004)

sikocycles said:


> Any other choices in forks if someone does not want to shell out for a carbon Dorado or convince Manitou to make one for them?
> Maybe a Dorado MY11 or is White Bros coming out with something? A groove race 180mm 29er would be cool.
> Wonder if Craig from Avy can make something?


Fork options that I know of:

Now Dorado - Yes with factory mods
Older Dorado's - Maybe, but they were problematic functionally and structurally, so best left to someone who knows what they need to work well
Mr. Dirt FAT fork - Yes with no mods, just slide the fork down through the crowns. Added bonus: dishless front wheel with wide flange spacing. Triple bypass model works best IMHO. The quadruple bypass with IFP (last version produced) reisted fade but had more stiction than I would want. Heavy. 8" travel fork actually gets 7". Beautifully made and super low maintenance. Long live Bob Barnett!
Avalanche - Yes with factory mods. The DHF7 is the modern equivalent of the Mr. Dirt Fat. Way better internals, heavy, low maintenance, nicely hand made.
Marzocchi Shiver - Most likely
Risse - Most likely
Marzocchi Monster - Yes, with custom arch
Marzocchi Super T - Yes, with custom arch (same could be said for Jr. T, but they perform poorly)
White Brothers Groove 180/200 - Yes with no mods
Older White Bros. USD forks - Not verified, but most likely good to go with no mods
FOX 40 - Yes with machining about 1/4 inch off the arch and sliding the fork down/limiting travel.

That's all I can think of at the moment.
There are more options than most realize, so long as you are willing/able to make some small modifications or know someone who can do them for you.
Same goes for frames. Lots of frames with replaceable dropouts available. You just need to make a CNC buddy.
Really, tires have been the biggest hurdle, rims coming in second. Forks and frames just take a little creativity. Lots of used stuff to be had on the cheep. Now that we have tires in the pipeline, I expect to see an explosion of creative DH and AM 29er creations.


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Great info.
Thx
Need to talk to Craig at Avy and see what we can do


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

One thing I find interesting is that many 29er people seem to chime in, but few are actually downhillers or know what downhilling is like. Maybe not so much in this forum, but always on this topic. Sometimes they seem to think Downieville is a DH race or that if they happen to be traveling downhill then they downhill. I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but it seems more often than not. 

I still think a 29er wheel with a proper rim and tire would be excessively heavy and cause too much gyroscopic rigidity. It's not like the 29er wheel attached to the current XC and AM 29er bikes, it would be a different game.

Then the question would be this:

Would 29er suit the current courses, or would people design the courses to suit the 29ers?

If the 6" lunchbox is an XC bike, then what is my hardtail 29er? I realize that Mikesee's bike is still more DH specific, but a lot of us ride 26 "AM/light FR" bikes that easily tackle real DH terrain. I've taken my RFX on lots of straight up DH stuff and it's done pretty well. I know some 29ers that would do pretty well in the same circumstances, but it sounds like you're saying the Lunchbox isn't versatile enough to do some full on DHing.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2009)

Jayem said:


> Then the question would be this:
> 
> Would 29er suit the current courses, or would people design the courses to suit the 29ers?


What a 29er DH course might look like.


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## tiSS'er (Jan 6, 2004)

sixsixtysix said:


> What a 29er DH course might look like.


SWEET!


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

Jayem said:


> If the 6" lunchbox is an XC bike, then what is my hardtail 29er? I realize that Mikesee's bike is still more DH specific, but a lot of us ride 26 "AM/light FR" bikes that easily tackle real DH terrain. I've taken my RFX on lots of straight up DH stuff and it's done pretty well. I know some 29ers that would do pretty well in the same circumstances, but it sounds like you're saying the Lunchbox isn't versatile enough to do some full on DHing.


I think my Lunchbox would be very comfortable anywhere your RFX would be. They "feel" very similar when the terrain gets steep (at least from my short experience on your RFX).

Come borrow it any time and you can give us your own opinion on it.

It is not a Highline. It is a long travel, very burly AM 29" bike and it excells in this role. I don't think your RFX could compare with a "real" DH bike in DH stuff. It gets the job done, but DH specific it is not. The Lunchbox is similar.


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## dbabuser (Jan 5, 2004)

nm...


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## bsdc (May 1, 2006)

This thread is useless without video. I wanna see the Big Bird fly!


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

I havn't been in the dh scene much this year,but i'm gonna hit plattekill at least once ,i'll report on how many 29ers i see on the steeps.


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## Datalogger (Jul 5, 2008)

FoShizzle said:


> It's also not surprising given the average DH forum reader is at a minimum, semi-retarded, and has no mind to have open to any concept other than what they see in a Mountain Dew commercial


$hit dude, if I had room in my Signature your post would be sitting in there just for speaking the truth! LMFAO! 

:thumbsup:


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

2 local guys have gotten to ride this bike the last two nights after work. The first one is a card-carrying Pro DH racer. He's demoed 29" wheels in the past, but does not currently own any. His last DH bike was a 303--sold recently.

Here's what he had to say after his first ride, along with a few pics from him on that ride.


_...it rolls over stuff sooooo easily, and will save your ass when you make a mistake going into a mine field. Mows down loose babyheads. Eats rain ruts for dinner. Always wants to go straight (could be good or bad).

...my first impression is that the right rider could put this bike on the top of a Pro DH podium.

Needs .25" lower BB.

Needs 1-2 degree slacker head angle, without raising bars.

Wheelbase felt short.

I definitely DO NOT feel like the bars need to be higher. _


Here are some questions I asked, and his answers:

Do you feel like the seat needs to be lower? Doesn't *need* to, but it would be nice to have the ability to drop it another 1-2".

Did you have it completely slammed, or was there still room to drop? I ended up slamming it.

Was the TT about right for you? Actually, yes. It felt just about perfect with the 50mm stem. 


Rear end stiffness acceptable? Yes. Tire clearance however, no. Remember, DH racing often takes place in mud. Gotta have mucho tire clearance for that, as well as for severely bent rims.

Noticeable wheel flex? If it's there, it's not much. Pleasantly surprised!

Do you feel like you need more travel on either end? Another 1/2 to 3/4 inch more rear travel would be good, but not at the expense of bb height.

Or just better tuned travel? Yes. Need a better tuned rear shock, the fork was incredible and just needs fine tuning/ride time. 


* * *
Devin is basically collecting feedback at this point so that he can make improvements and then fabricate the next iteration. The feedback above was direct and to the point--exactly what's needed.

Hope to get some more time to post the second rider's thoughts and video later tonight.

MC


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

Datalogger said:


> $hit dude, if I had room in my Signature your post would be sitting in there just for speaking the truth! LMFAO!
> 
> :thumbsup:


thanks man...i try


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

The second rider to demo this bike is a bit of an enigma. I don't know how *he* would define himself as a rider. *I* think he's a bit of a whack job (that's a compliment)--he rails a hardtail 29" SS faster on tech trails than 85% of the population can ride 'em on fullies. I cannot, could not hold his wheel when descending serious chunk, with him on his HT and me on my 6" bike. Guess you could say the rider is more important than the bike, eh?

But then he also owns an 8" travel 26" DH bike, and he ain't afraid to send it. I haven't ridden with him when he's been on this bike, but I've seen a lot of the moves that he's built and I always just kinda shake my head and then ease away and volunteer to be cameraman while others line 'em up. Big, and heady.

He's also been a DH, dual, and MTX racer in the past.

Anyhoo, I accidentally bumped into him on the trail tonight and took the opportunity to snag these two clips:





*Don't forget to notice his 'normal' riding shoes: Crocs.*

His first words when I bumped into him: _"You ain't gettin' it back!"_ Followed by a maniacal cackle--he seemed to be having a blast.

Then I continued climbing and he kept descending.

When he brought the bike back to the shop afterwards, here's what he had to say:

_"If I hadn't just bought a house I would buy this bike. Now. Tonight."

"This bike gives up nothing to my 8" 26"er. Every bit as nimble. Every bit as bottomless."

"Feels much faster than my other bike."_

He was talking so fast I'm forgetting bunches of what he said. He had a couple of choice quotes--I'll have to call him tomorrow for a recap.

I asked him what he would do to improve it. Change the HTA? _"No."_ Lower the BB? _"No"_. More travel? _"I wouldn't argue, but I don't think it needs it."_ Any wheel flex--even a little? _"No."_

When I *really* pressed him to find something to improve, he mentioned that he'd bottomed the rear end on one hard rock drop landing. Didn't clank it, just knew that he'd used it all up. I did this yesterday too (I think on the same move) after installing the 'soft' drop-stop bumper on the rear shock. Looks like I need to go back to the 'medium'.

His other criticism was that he prefers a standard 12 x 150 thru-axle to the Maxle that this frame uses. His reasoning was that he'd rather have a thru-axle that threads into an insert than the frame itself. Haven't heard of or seen any failures yet, but still--potentially a valid concern.

All for now.

MC


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## cactuscorn (Feb 5, 2004)

Enel said:


> I don't think your RFX could compare with a "real" DH bike in DH stuff. It gets the job done, but DH specific it is not.


agreed. ive dh'ed my '07 rfx and my '06 dhr more than once and theres no contest. none. the rfx got the job done but ya had to reeeeeeeeeealy be on top of what was happinin or it woulda been a tragic mess. the true dh rig was more like findin the line and lettin it work in my favor. sorry jayem but this was not yer best comparison. dont confuse this with a turner review. the point is to compare a 6"-ish trail bike with a 8"-ish dh machine in the 26" wheel format. im not experienced enough to even try to equate this to big wheels.

mike: this all sounds quite promising and its understood theres miles to go before the goal is reached. as its been said, everything we ride now was once shat uppon. some for good reason, most cuz its safer to live in the present vs the future. perhaps its time to look a bit more fwd.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

cactuscorn said:


> agreed. ive dh'ed my '07 rfx and my '06 dhr more than once and theres no contest. none. the rfx got the job done but ya had to reeeeeeeeeealy be on top of what was happinin or it woulda been a tragic mess. the true dh rig was more like findin the line and lettin it work in my favor. sorry jayem but this was not yer best comparison. dont confuse this with a turner review. the point is to compare a 6"-ish trail bike with a 8"-ish dh machine in the 26" wheel format. im not experienced enough to even try to equate this to big wheels.
> 
> mike: this all sounds quite promising and its understood theres miles to go before the goal is reached. as its been said, everything we ride now was once shat uppon. some for good reason, most cuz its safer to live in the present vs the future. perhaps its time to look a bit more fwd.


No one understood my comparission. I guess it's my fault. I was taking issue with Mikesee saying that the 6" lunchbox was an XC bike. The RFX is no DH bike, but it is versatile enough to do some DHing with the proper fork and components. The 6" lunchbox *should* be the same.


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## cactuscorn (Feb 5, 2004)

ok. that ill buy. its exactly what i did last year with big wheels, big tires big h/bar and a big fork. worked great for what it was but as dt told me later on, theres no substitute for a proper dh sled. everything else is a compromise. i bagged on the highline idea and i couldnt be more pleased.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

dbabuser said:


> I still don't see how you get around 29" wheels being larger gyroscopes, which equals tougher to throw around in the air. Seems to me that's the reason why bmx still has followers.
> That said, I don't recall BCD looking too awkward while jumping his 29'er dh bike. Maybe it's just a bigger hindrance for the air-impaired (like me)...


If you're a fragile little roadie, sure. If you're a man sized 29er rider, then how is this any different than a guy that's 5'6" and 135lbs "throwing around" a 26" bike? I'd think most of the 29er DH guys are going to be like most of the XC guys, 6'+ and 175lbs+ and it's not going to be an issue for them.


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## miklorsmith (Aug 16, 2006)

This thread is getting really, really good. Highest compliments, mikesee.


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## snow-man (Aug 19, 2004)

Besides the impossiblity of finding parts for a 29er DH bike (Fork, tires, tubes, etc.) only one thing stands out to me

Why would you want a higher BB height???
Equaling a higher center of gravity?

no thanks


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

why would the bb height have to be higher? it's not like he's throwing 29" wheels into a 26" frame. it's a completely new frame with the bb capable of being placed at whetever height the designer/builder desires. regardless though, the center of gravity 'should' feel lower at the same bb height on 29" wheels due to the bb being 1.5" lower in relation to the axles.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

cactuscorn said:


> agreed. ive dh'ed my '07 rfx and my '06 dhr more than once and theres no contest. none. the rfx got the job done but ya had to reeeeeeeeeealy be on top of what was happinin or it woulda been a tragic mess. the true dh rig was more like findin the line and lettin it work in my favor. sorry jayem but this was not yer best comparison. dont confuse this with a turner review. the point is to compare a 6"-ish trail bike with a 8"-ish dh machine in the 26" wheel format. im not experienced enough to even try to equate this to big wheels.
> 
> mike: this all sounds quite promising and its understood theres miles to go before the goal is reached. as its been said, everything we ride now was once shat uppon. some for good reason, most cuz its safer to live in the present vs the future. perhaps its time to look a bit more fwd.


I would definitely listen to Cactuscorn...its not often we get a legit DH National Champion to grace us with their presence


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## frorider (Apr 2, 2005)

snow-man said:


> Besides the impossiblity of finding parts for a 29er DH bike (Fork, tires, tubes, etc.) only one thing stands out to me
> 
> Why would you want a higher BB height???
> Equaling a higher center of gravity?
> ...


go easy on snow-man. a lot of people failed their geometry classes in high school, so they don't understand that the BB height of a 29er can be as low as on a 26er.

Arguably, in can be lower. If,say, in fact the 'rolling thru chunk' ability of a 7 inch f/r DH 29er bike is similar to an 8 inch travel 26er DH bike, then the DH 29er can have a slightly lower BB height while still avoiding pedal strike issues.

however bar height from the ground remains a potential concern. but again, if 7 inch travel is enough, that pretty much takes care of the bar height concern i.e. almost compensates for that extra 1.5 inches.


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## Hesh to Steel (Oct 2, 2007)

I love the people that comment without reading the thread. Those people are my favoritest.


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## Tim F. (May 22, 2006)

:thumbsup: I can't beleive I'm wasting my time reading another 29er DH thread. Notice that most of the posters are 29ers.



sixsixtysix said:


> If you actually read that article about why no one makes a 29er DH bike, its pretty obvious that most companies are still trying to get the maximum performance out of 26" wheels on on the World Cup.
> 
> It also is stated a couple times (By engineers who know quite a bit more than you and I) that with slack angles, and 200mm of suspension that 29er wheels show no advantage over a 26 wheel and in fact the negatives greatly outweigh the positives.
> 
> Idk how much DH experience you have, but I know at 40mph, the last thing I am thinking when flying over stuff is "Wow, I wish I had bigger wheels".


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## ripplemuncher (Dec 6, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Hub: limited production from DT. I imported 6 of them from Switzerland, and AFAIK they are the only 6 on US soil. Send me an E if you really want one.


Sorry if I'm being a tard, but I can't find an email for you anywhere. Checked your website, profile, etc. How do I get a hold of you?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

ripplemuncher said:


> Sorry if I'm being a tard, but I can't find an email for you anywhere. Checked your website, profile, etc. How do I get a hold of you?


info at lacemine29 dot com


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## cactuscorn (Feb 5, 2004)

im just workin on my post count.


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## frorider (Apr 2, 2005)

Tim F. said:


> :thumbsup: I can't beleive I'm wasting my time reading another 29er DH thread. Notice that most of the posters are 29ers.


This statement is nonsensical. I own 2 29ers and 3 26ers, one of which is a full-on DH rig, and I know plenty of people in that category. I am not convinced that a 29er DH rig is the optimum solution by any means, but the history of innovation and progress is filled with experiments like this one so being open-minded is synonymous with being intelligent.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

frorider said:


> This statement is nonsensical. I own 2 29ers and 3 26ers, one of which is a full-on DH rig, and I know plenty of people in that category. I am not convinced that a 29er DH rig is the optimum solution by any means, *but the history of innovation and progress is filled with experiments like this one* so being open-minded is synonymous with being intelligent.


If not for that, we would all be riding bikes like this, 








or maybe not riding mountain bikes at all, and the downhill snobs might not exist. 
Hmmmm, may not be such a bad scenario...... 

(joke, it is a *joke*, unwad those panties and full body armor  )


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

frorider said:


> This statement is nonsensical. I own 2 29ers and 3 26ers, one of which is a full-on DH rig, and I know plenty of people in that category. I am not convinced that a 29er DH rig is the optimum solution by any means, but the history of innovation and progress is filled with experiments like this one so being open-minded is synonymous with being intelligent.


You have far too many multi-syllabic words in your post for this crowd to comprehend. The upshot is that you just put most of these gals into mental overload (right around "nonsensical") and now they'll be off napping for a few hours and this thread *might* be able to go that long without a "Can't be done!" comment.

Cheers,

MC


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## eMcK (Aug 22, 2007)

Could you post up a non-driveside photo? I'd like to see the main pivot location.

For a group of riders constantly pushing the envelope, I've never understood the weird resistance from the DH crowd to 29" wheels. More travel was always accepted, until recently where it seems most people are dialing it back a bit. Why not go big with the wheels? It ain't gonna hurt anyone. Easy enough to go back to 26", much like the 24" fad.


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## dbabuser (Jan 5, 2004)

jay_ntwr said:


> If you're a fragile little roadie, sure. If you're a man sized 29er rider, then how is this any different than a guy that's 5'6" and 135lbs "throwing around" a 26" bike? I'd think most of the 29er DH guys are going to be like most of the XC guys, 6'+ and 175lbs+ and it's not going to be an issue for them.


I'm talking air-ability. I don't see a lot of xc guys throwing their 29'ers around in the air, either. :skep:


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

dbabuser said:


> I'm talking air-ability. I don't see a lot of xc guys throwing their *bikes* around in the air, either. :skep:


fixed that for you


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## asin (Jan 31, 2005)

I think it's a cool experiment but I just don't see this taking off. Having lived in Whistler and the Shore I can pretty much guarantee that there will be very few takers for this.

Here are a couple of thoughts:


People and bike shops are sick of accommodating new standards.
The improved rollover ability of 29ers has relevancy at AM speeds, but at 45km/h with 8" of travel and 2.6" tires it's a non-issue.
Low-speed maneuvrability on steeps will likely not improve.
Bike parks destroy smaller, tougher 26" wheels. There is no way there's going to be enough buy-in for 29" DH bikes to encourage the development of suitable rims and tires. Same with forks. You gotta be pretty dedicated to this concept to mod a $2k fork for this.
To gain proper respect a well-known tastemaker will have to do amazing things with one (pro DH or FR rider) - and this won't happen. Alex from BCD is too much of a mad scientist to really start this trend, although he's certainly opened many minds to what's possible!
The tall guy argument doesn't hold much water when a DH bike isn't constrained by the same ergonomics requirements.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

asin said:


> I think it's a cool experiment but I just don't see this taking off. Having lived in Whistler and the Shore I can pretty much guarantee that there will be very few takers for this.


No real argument here--Whistler and the Shore have their own 'thing' going on and that's great.

But as cool as BC is, there *are* other places to ride DH, ya know?



> People and bike shops are sick of accommodating new standards.


Agreed 120%. But there's nothing new about this--29" has been around for over a decade, and distribution channels for the parts (rims, tires, forks, spokes, etc...) are no different than for 26" or 20" for that matter.



> The improved rollover ability of 29ers has relevancy at AM speeds, but at 45km/h with 8" of travel and 2.6" tires it's a non-issue.


You're absolutely right--at those speeds rollover ability makes little difference.

*But* the absolute smoothness that the bigger wheel gives you at those speeds, in chop, makes a *tremendous* difference.

To wit: I rode last weekend with two of the directors of one of CO's bigger bike parks. They are both self-avowed "29er skeptics". They both rode this bike on their home hill. They both *LOVED* this bike, especially because of how much it smoothed out chop at speed.

Here are a few of their quotes:
_"It's just impossibly smooth&#8230;". 
"Feels like there's way more travel than you say there is&#8230;". 
"That bike is *tight*! Tight like a&#8230; well&#8230; you know&#8230;". 
"Maaaaaaan! That's unnaturally smooth!" _

Meanwhile, while they were riding my bike, I got stuck following them on their Kona Stab Supreme. Standing over the bike, not moving, the suspension felt *awesome*. Super supple, super plush. But get the thing moving and things change--that suspension is working extra hard to try to filter out the (relatively) bigger hits that are coming through the wheels.

I'll put that another way: No matter how great the suspension works on a 26" bike, the ledges/roots/chop have to get filtered through the wheels first. The end result is that the suspension is working WAY harder on the 26" bike than it has to on the 29". Don't take my word for it, but go back up and read those quotes again--and keep in mind that until they rode *this* bike, those guys had no interest in nor love for 29" wheels.



> Low-speed maneuvrability on steeps will likely not improve.


I haven't done anything truly steep on this bike yet, so I can't comment either way.



> Bike parks destroy smaller, tougher 26" wheels. There is no way there's going to be enough buy-in for 29" DH bikes to encourage the development of suitable rims and tires. Same with forks. You gotta be pretty dedicated to this concept to mod a $2k fork for this.


I hate to break it to you, but the rims/tires to do this in 29" already exist, with more on the way this fall. As you stated, bike parks destroy wheels, period. Without a doubt, 29" wheels will get killed too--no way around that.

You're absolutely right about forks, though. Right now that's the big limiter.



> To gain proper respect a well-known tastemaker will have to do amazing things with one (pro DH or FR rider) - and this won't happen. Alex from BCD is too much of a mad scientist to really start this trend, although he's certainly opened many minds to what's possible!


I see what you're saying, and I agree with it to an extent. But think about this: Thus far, what ONE big 'tastemaker' has gotten behind 29" fullies? Coming up blank? I can't think of anyone, either. Yet the genre continues to grow. I've owned a 5 x 5" 29"er for 5 years now, and I've had a 6 x 6 for over a year. Not having a big name pushing trail bikes hasn't kept them from evolving, and the parts (rims, tires, forks) along with them.

OT: I wish Alex hadn't been so averse to heavy tires. I offered him some of my WTB 29" dual-ply protos and he wasn't interested because they were ~1500g. Without a doubt that's a lotta tire, but it rolls a lot faster than a lighter tire with a flat tube inside...



> The tall guy argument doesn't hold much water when a DH bike isn't constrained by the same ergonomics requirements.


Not sure where you're going with that?

At any rate, thanks for continuing *rational* dialog. Hope you can think about and maybe see some of what I'm saying.

Now, time to pack for Whizzler...

MC


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## Enduramil (Mar 1, 2007)

ripplemuncher said:


> Certainly not for everyone, but some will enjoy it (DH 29er) just for the fun of it, and some, like me, want it because it just fits better. I'm 6.5' tall and have been racing downhill since 1995. 26" bikes feel like kid bikes to me. The only off the peg bike that felt even close to the correct geometry (before 29ers) was my Rotec Pro DH. Most people loathed those bikes for being way too long. Fit me great! I got rid of my other bikes and rode it XC between DH races. After several years the frame cracked, so I built my first full custom bike with 29" wheels. I really wanted a FS bike, but full custom is tricky and expensive, so a hardtail was the best solution at the time. That was 2001-2002 from design to finished bike. I've been riding that bike for the last seven years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Just out of curiosity, what's your full parts list?


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## dbabuser (Jan 5, 2004)

boomn said:


> fixed that for you


But it wasn't broken. There are pro xc guys who kill it in all disciplines. 
Maybe the only way to sell it to skeptics like me is to start paying pro dj'ers to ride 29'ers.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

dbabuser said:


> But it wasn't broken. There are pro xc guys who kill it in all disciplines.


They absolutely do, but isn't that a different point? They may be awesome across all disciplines but they usually don't go for big air on any xc bike; they do it on their other bikes.


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## asin (Jan 31, 2005)

mikesee said:


> Now, time to pack for Whizzler...
> 
> MC


All good points. Ultimately it'll be interesting to see if it takes off.

I'm skeptical that 29er DH will ever be more than a cult thing. But hey, I didn't think young people would be wearing tight acid-washed jeans again either.


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## dbabuser (Jan 5, 2004)

nm...


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

a small jump like that, with smooth, mellow transitions, and a barely moto whip in the air is just as easy on current 29" xc geometry as it is on current 26" xc geometry. hopping, manualling and dropping are more difficult though, due to the bb drop/c-stay length on XC 29ers. it's less than half the difference in feel between a 20" bike and a 26" bike.


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## ripplemuncher (Dec 6, 2004)

Enduramil said:


> Just out of curiosity, what's your full parts list?


That photo is a year old and I've been busy testing products with that bike, so it is completely different now.

But last year, that bike was built up with:

Full custom computer designed Easton 7000 series frame
Kris Holm 32H rims w' yellow tape to hold the air in when I pinch flat
Rohloff hub - total chain control, strong dishless wheel, shift in corners and in the air, ten years old and still flawless. I've saved so much money since I bought it, probably paid for itself three times over.
Maverick front hub, some of the best flange spacing available
Nevegals with tubes glued inside and Stan's inside the tube
190mm profile cranks (my legs are stupid long) W/ Ti spindle 39/15 gearing
Profile BB in eccentric
Maverick fork - revalved, different oil, different, pressure etc. 70mm stem
1990 something White Brothers Ti bar w/ 3" rise
Hope M4 brakes F&R 203mm / 183mm The best performing brakes I've tried
Joplin post - junk, sold it. Hopefully round two will be better.
King headset - 11 years old now and still going strong

Bike is now set up for a 300 mile back country ride this weekend:









Here is what I've been doing my DH on these days:









Pivot Mach 429 - Awesome, Awesome, Awesome, chassis. Did I mention Awesome? Suspension action, rigidity, durability... with a slack head angle I could race it DH on most tracks.
Same fork and bars.
XT brakes - was hoping for more, a bit dissappointed, but I've been spoiled in the brakes department.
Surly Mr. Whirly cranks 185mm running five bolt for extra chainring rigidity/bash resiliency.
Hope single speed rear hub running a six speed SLX cassette (SLX cassette has the last three cogs on a separate spider) for wider flange spacing and less dish.
XTR derailleur / shifter setup - sucks compared to a Rohloff, and yes, I know you disagree.
Stan's Flow rims 32h
WTB Stout tires - lame. I flat almost every ride, weak a$$ casing. Grip is iffy. Tread is no good for my trails. Probably be good on deep, soft, loamy soil.

I ride this bike with Pro and Expert downhillers. Sometimes I can drop them, most of the time we are the same speed, and when I have to baby the tires they pull away. I think I have only finished one ride with these guys without flatting. I've learned to stay light through the rocks and rarely pinch, it is the tires being cut open that gets me all the time.

Now back on topic. PM me if you want more specifics.

So, regarding 29er DH bikes, all you people comparing to 26" bikes etc, it really is not about 29 vs. 26. Keep in mind it is just about going down a hill on a bicycle for fun. None of us are paying the bills with our race winnings. It does not matter which is fastest or better. It is all about choice. I have fun riding 29ers and want more choices. I hope you will support that, even if you prefer to ride 26" wheels.

Cheers.


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

As long as there are Tires and Forks out there I will be on a DH 29er next season. 
Hope to see the tires options soon


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

latedropbob said:


> Here's an interesting article I just found on why big bike companies i.e. santa cruz, norco, spesh, etc. are not making 29r DH bikes. Real interesting.... Not baggin' just researching.


My favorite line from that "_interesting article_":



> Specialized: Darren Berecloth rode the new 29r Stumpjumper yesterday and came back say good it felt and that he would like to try one up in BC, so who know maybe he will lead the charge to freeride 29r's.


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## Enduramil (Mar 1, 2007)

ripplemuncher said:


> That photo is a year old and I've been busy testing products with that bike, so it is completely different now.
> 
> But last year, that bike was built up with:
> 
> ...


 Thanks, you have given me some ideas for a beefier build of the 29er. One area I'll be replacing soon is bars and am looking at Simtra.


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## Nick_M2R (Oct 18, 2008)

To the people who swear that the 29 feels better on the rough stuff, well yes it technically is, but i think we need to have a teaspoon of concrete and harden the f up with the 26 inch shortcomings, haha joking, everyone has their own opinion, but i will be sticking to 26 for now


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Small drop on my lunchbox.


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## Davidcopperfield (Jan 17, 2007)

This very thread suffers from shortage of awesome videos.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

we will never see 29er DH bikes or 26er Dirt jumpers. 20 inch wheels for DJ's is the proper size, and 26 or 24 for DH. 

I'll keep a tally to see which of you tards doesn't understand that was tongue in cheek. 

Anyway, I love how passionate people are that XC 29er parts wont hold up for DH, while having no idea if NON XC 29er parts will, be remain firmly convinced nothing 29er can hold up. 

Remember when people said nothing carbon could hold up for DH? and then Mick hannah is ranked #5 overall in the world cup series, and just got 3rd at worlds on a carbon DH bike? Remember when brian lopes got 16th on a 160mm carbon AM bike?


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

ripplemuncher said:


> That photo is a year old and I've been busy testing products with that bike, so it is completely different now.
> 
> But last year, that bike was built up with:
> 
> ...


Somehow, that Rohloff doesn't look 10 years old, not in Red Anodize, which didn't come out until 2008, with lazer etching... everything previous was Red Powdercoat, or unfinished clear aluminum or black anodize. And radial spoke lace on the drive side, instead of 2x cross? How strong, or weak, is that?


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

mikesee said:


> {_sighs_} Not just one of your pet peeves--it was bugging me too. Basically, two of the guys in our group are pretty new to bikes and totally new to downhilling. So they were a bit green, period, but then you compound that with the fact that they come from a moto background (front brake is on the right) and they just couldn't wrap their heads around it in the heat of the moment. So I guess their default was to just avoid the front brake entirely. Every time I saw one of them skidding I made a point to tell them to start using the front brake more.
> 
> I hate to say it, but I don't think they ever did.
> 
> ...


Sad.. not one allen wrench among all of you? It's as simple as pulling a wrench out and flipping the brake levers to moto style. Not pointing the finger at you... moto boys should have had their own camelbak, tools, tubes, pump, etc.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Mike, that's a lot of Kool Aid in a couple of days... but still, good stuff. Keep pushing the envelope and opening eyes, because knocking it before you've tried it is unfortunate. I think it's 95% rider, 5% bike. A great rider can adapt and master anything... who knows, maybe DH courses will start being built at bike parks to 29'er standards?


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

William42 said:


> we will never see 29er DH bikes or 26er Dirt jumpers. 20 inch wheels for DJ's is the proper size, and 26 or 24 for DH.
> 
> I'll keep a tally to see which of you tards doesn't understand that was tongue in cheek.
> 
> ...


i use my 29er now for my local BMX track racing


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## Tim F. (May 22, 2006)

[... who knows, maybe DH courses will start being built at bike parks to 29'er standards?[/QUOTE]

They allready do. They're called"service roads"


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## Enduramil (Mar 1, 2007)

William42 said:


> we will never see 29er DH bikes or 26er Dirt jumpers. 20 inch wheels for DJ's is the proper size, and 26 or 24 for DH.
> 
> I'll keep a tally to see which of you tards doesn't understand that was tongue in cheek.
> 
> ...


 It's funny how quickly people forget the history of mountain bike parts. Years ago tires where single wall, rims crap, brakes good on a dry day, and so on. Yet through the mid 90's they evolved and improved to where they are now.

Not all but some parts for 29ers are still catching up. Just like it did in the 90's parts will improve.


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## darkzeon (Jun 15, 2006)

Surely this is meant for tall rider's. It's a conspiracy against SH and fellow short riders. If Steve P. will ride one surely everyone else will...Long live the short people,ummm, the 26".


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## Saxon9598 (Sep 15, 2008)

Tim F. said:


> [... who knows, maybe DH courses will start being built at bike parks to 29'er standards?
> 
> They allready do. They're called"service roads"


Ouch! that's harsh...you guys crack me up.....never a dull moment


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## Davidcopperfield (Jan 17, 2007)

Kill me thrill me- that's the name, which the new thread bears it on! Sounds like country sog, doesn't it?
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=554677


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Davidcopperfield said:


> like country sog,


The Brits seem to thrive on country sogs....


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## Patriot222 (Dec 16, 2007)

Mikesee, your posts here are by far the most compelling. I'll take good random testimony any time over dogmatic assertions. Thanks for the interviews and video. :thumbsup:


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

RandyBoy said:


> Sad.. not one allen wrench among all of you? It's as simple as pulling a wrench out and flipping the brake levers to moto style. Not pointing the finger at you... moto boys should have had their own camelbak, tools, tubes, pump, etc.


We were constantly switching bikes around among the group, and the bulk of us ride front brake on the left, so that's where they were 'left'.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

After three days on this bike in the park at Whizzler a few things have become clear:
-You can take an XC geek out of his lycra, but putting him onto a DH bike and onto DH trails does not a downhiller make. In short, the bike kept screaming at me to stop scrubbing the brakes when approaching lips and drops, and I kept NOT listening. I got braver as each day went on, but plain and simple could not get used to boosting lip after lip at 20-30mph. Maybe with a few more days I could have gotten comfortable doing that. Maybe not.
-The suspension on this bike is incredible. After many minor tweaks on the first day (a click or two of rebound change, then a slight drop in PSI up front to juice it up a bit, then a 50# drop in spring rate out back) I felt pretty dialed in to the ride. Whether we were blazing through braking bumps into or out of corners on Crank it Up, ripping down Dirt Merchant or A-Line, or slipping and skidding slow-speed down Original Sin or Schleyer, it was always both supple and plush. No noticeable brake dive up front or brake jack out back, no harsh bottoming on either end. Pretty much felt bottomless, even on the bigger/faster/harder drops and landings.

Much more to tell, and mucho photos and vid to edit and upload, but for now I gotta hit the road.

Cheers,

MC


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Awesome, Mike! I'm looking forward to the vids and pics.


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## jut8 (Jul 10, 2006)

Just a thought....if Manitou is making this awesome Dorado 29er fork, what is the Measurements for the fork with the 29er front wheel? 

What i am getting at is---->Would it be possible for someone to make their current DH rig into a bike with the dorado fork/29" front wheel, and keep their 26" rear without messing with the geometry so much that it makes the bike not as capable? Or could it be a huge improvement with the right wheel combo? I think if it was done right, the 29er front wheel/tire could be a huge success for the guys here on the east, with all the wet roots and rocks we have. 

Just a thought....


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

jut8 said:


> Just a thought....if Manitou is making this awesome Dorado 29er fork, what is the Measurements for the fork with the 29er front wheel?
> 
> What i am getting at is---->Would it be possible for someone to make their current DH rig into a bike with the dorado fork/29" front wheel, and keep their 26" rear without messing with the geometry so much that it makes the bike not as capable? Or could it be a huge improvement with the right wheel combo? I think if it was done right, the 29er front wheel/tire could be a huge success for the guys here on the east, with all the wet roots and rocks we have.
> 
> Just a thought....


I'd think that the increased trail would make the bike sluggish if it were a 26" with a 29" wheel on on front. That and if you've got the coin for a $3,200 Dorado, you probably can go ahead and build a "proper 29er DH" sled anyway.


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## Davidcopperfield (Jan 17, 2007)

Have yous seen the 29er DH tyre?
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=556232
and the article?
http://twentynineinches.com/2009/09/17/29er-dh-the-tire/


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## JMH (Feb 23, 2005)

sean salach said:


> a small jump like that, with smooth, mellow transitions, and a barely moto whip in the air is just as easy on current 29" xc geometry as it is on current 26" xc geometry. hopping, manualling and dropping are more difficult though, due to the bb drop/c-stay length on XC 29ers. it's less than half the difference in feel between a 20" bike and a 26" bike.


True, that's not the biggest hit in the world. But that drop and those trails are definitely as big or bigger than most riders on this forum go, therefore most riders on this forum could try the 29er and see what they think of it.

I ride both wheel sizes and I am not sold on big wheels for big bikes for exactly the rear end geometry reasons you mention, but I also haven't given it a fair shake. Would like to get a few serious test rides.

Here is another bike with the 29er Dorado fork... I think bar height would be a very serious concern for me on this sort of rig. No way to go lower without an upside-down riser, which is very unfortunate looking. Check the absolutely fat tires. This bike might not fit smaller dudes, but it certainly looks plenty capable.

JMH


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

*Dt 440s*

Any chance you know if DT has any plans on releasing the hub to the public so I can buy one? :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I've been waiting for a 150mm small cassette bodied hub for quite some time now...

Cheers


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

ilikemybike011 said:


> Any chance you know if DT has any plans on releasing the hub to the public so I can buy one? :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
> 
> I've been waiting for a 150mm small cassette bodied hub for quite some time now...
> 
> Cheers


Sort of a trick question. Or is it a trick answer?! :skep:

The hub can probably be ordered by any North American distributor (BTI, QBP, Security, etc...) that deals directly with DT. It'll have to come from Switzerland, as every one of these hubs in the US are in my possession.

Or, you could simply order it from my shop (link in sig). Sorry for the SPAM--no way to give a straight answer to that question without pointing the finger at myself.

MC


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

*An update of sorts.*

Sorry for the lack of info posted about this bike lately. I know lots of folks here have lost sleep over it...

Having a few computer issues that are preventing me from editing the Whistler video. I have lots of words and experiences to share (not all positive, either) but I want to have the video to illustrate. A pic (or vid) is worth 1000 words, ya know?

Meanwhile, here's one pic from Whistler that I like to call, "_You do it your way, I'll do it mine..._".


Cheers,

MC


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## burgundy snake (Dec 12, 2007)

Love'n the updates Mikesee! This thread is a lot of fun to read. Never thought a Banshee equiped with a Super Monster could look so small!


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## Datalogger (Jul 5, 2008)

Wow, that Banshee is so small it looks like it has 24" wheels on it!


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Pinkbike write up
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Interbike-randoms-2-2009.html


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## ebxtreme (Jan 6, 2004)

That old Scream must weigh 50+ pounds with the Monter T and the 14 lb. frame. Where's Bender when you need him? :skep:



mikesee said:


> Meanwhile, here's one pic from Whistler that I like to call, "_You do it your way, I'll do it mine..._".
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> ...


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

*First review that I've seen.*

Here's KRob's Interbike demo report on this bike.



KRob said:


> I like to start these mini reviews/impressions with a disclaimer. I get only 30-60 minutes on any of these bikes and even with the technician at the booth setting up the suspension for my weight and me fiddling with it some out on the trail I know that it would take a day or two of riding (maybe more) to get things really set up so that they are working anywhere close to perfection for me and my riding style. In some cases bar, stem, seat, and certainly tire selection had an adverse affect on my impression of the bike. Some bikes were brand spanking new (I was absolutely the first person to throw a leg over some) and in other cases they had been so thrashed about and the fork and shock seals so full of fine Bootleg talc as to affect our impression as well. So, please, don't interpret these views as anything but that. Just one hack's first impression.
> 
> *LenzSport PBJ 7.0* 7" 29er FR/DH
> 
> ...


Glad you got to ride it, Kent. And thanks for taking the time to give an honest review.

Cheers,

MC


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## Funrover (Oct 4, 2006)

I like!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Jayem said:


> One thing I find interesting is that many 29er people seem to chime in, but few are actually downhillers or know what downhilling is like.


Please give a one-size-fits-all definition of '_downhillers_' and '_downhilling_'.

Thanks.

MC


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## NoahColorado (Aug 3, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Please give a one-size-fits-all definition of '_downhillers_' and '_downhilling_'.


Full matching Troy Lee kit, Leatt neck brace, expensive bike, "rides for a team", scoffs at buying anything at "retail" but is happy to pay $3 for can of doped-up sugar water, drinks PBR (not because they like it but because it's vogue), single and poor at interacting with the opposite sex.

 Kidding...


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## Cable0guy (Jun 19, 2007)

NoahColorado said:


> Full matching Troy Lee kit, Leatt neck brace, expensive bike, "rides for a team", scoffs at buying anything at "retail" but is happy to pay $3 for can of doped-up sugar water, drinks PBR (not because they like it but because it's vogue), single and poor at interacting with the opposite sex.
> 
> Kidding...


Hey, that sounds like me and most of my riding buddies!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

NoahColorado said:


> Full matching Troy Lee kit, Leatt neck brace, expensive bike, "rides for a team", scoffs at buying anything at "retail" but is happy to pay $3 for can of doped-up sugar water, drinks PBR (not because they like it but because it's vogue), single and poor at interacting with the opposite sex.


Is it funny or ironic that for a good chunk, that's nail-on-head?

Thanks for helping make the point that there's no 'one' definition of '_downhilling_' or '_downhillers_'.

For some it's DJing, for others it's drops to flat. Some are lucky and have big mountains and access to them. Some have 'runs' of 45 seconds. Type of trail, speed, moves (or not), risk (or not), need (or not) for suspension... all of it factors in.

The only way that you can throw a blanket statement over any of it is if you yourself (or, in this case, Jayem) are ignorant of the many, many other facets to the sport.

I rode the Whole Enchilada on this bike yesterday. Burro Pass to the River. That's ~7,000' of descending in one run. You know--pure XC.

MC


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

*Some more pics of the PBJ just before MikeSee's North Shore ride*

Just thought I'd post some pics of the PBJ that likely haven't been seen before. I snapped these before MikeSee and I did a couple of loops of Mt Fromme on the North Shore. I had to help Mike break this bike in a bit before his big Whistler trip!

You're definitely not going to see many 29ers up here but they are becoming more common as people realize their benefits on all but the craziest trails.

I've always been impressed by Lenz's build quality and the PBJ was no different. Pure craftsmanship with beautiful welds, a great looking downtube and fantastic machining. Unfortunately the bike was far too small for me to get any sort of feel for it (putting an XL/XXL rider on a M frame doesn't work too well) but Mike put it through it's paces while following me on my Nomad. I'm a 29er convert for XC and AM riding and will definitley look at a PBJ when I decide to retire the Nomad.

Enjoy!


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## kipdrunner (Aug 9, 2007)

mikesee said:


> _downhilling_
> 
> For some it's DJing


:skep: DJing is DJing, DJ=/=DH



mikesee said:


> for others it's drops to flat.


That's freeriding.
You can do different types of riding on a single ride, on a single bike, but downhilling is downhilling...


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

kipdrunner said:


> :skep: DJing is DJing, DJ=/=DH
> 
> That's freeriding.
> You can do different types of riding on a single ride, on a single bike, but downhilling is downhilling...


You've told us what downhilling **isn't**, but you haven't told us what it **is**.

My point is that it's different things to different people, dependent on the trails and bikes they have at their disposal, as well as the skill level they bring to the trailhead.

MC


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Thanks for sharing those, Ken. Still working on copying the vid for ya--hang in there!

I also have a pile of action shots and vid to sort through of the PBJ being ridden locally and Moab-ally the last ~week. Here are a few, all courtesy of Skippy Wixom:

Cheers,

MC


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mikesee said:


> I rode the Whole Enchilada on this bike yesterday. Burro Pass to the River. That's ~7,000' of descending in one run. You know--pure XC.
> 
> MC


It's funny how examples like this keep being brought up. People keep bringing stuff up like Downieville, or this, or some other big "mostly downhill" ride. Sorry, but I wouldn't ride a DH bike on that ride either, and I've ridden quite a few portions of it. A downhill run usually only last a few miles at most, drops at least 1000' vertical, has very steep pitches, quite a bit of sustained steep riding, and generally is NOT like Downieville or the "whole enchilada". Yes, those are great rides, but they are not rides for full on DH bikes. We shuttled (with the lift) the Moab Rim trail back in the day, THAT was where we wanted (and used) our DH bikes due to all the big launches from/to solid rock. Kind of like how my DH bike is slower than my 6" bike on National in Phoenix. Is it mostly downhill? Yes. It's it sustained steep stuff? No. Holbert, Geronimo and 24th street are where I want my DH bike.

You can ride a downhill bike on more than just these dedicated downhill runs obviously, but you seem to be mistaking what a downhill bike is for. It's not for those super-G or long gradual descending rides, it's for crazy steep stuff with jumps, launches, vertical rock-gardens, etc.


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## Davidcopperfield (Jan 17, 2007)

Ok enough babbling- videos please- lots of them.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Jayem said:


> A downhill run usually only last a few miles at most, drops at least 1000' vertical, has very steep pitches, quite a bit of sustained steep riding


So by that definition there is ZERO downhilling in MI, MN, WI, IA, NE, KS, MO, FLA, NJ, IL, and about ten other states whose names I don't know the abbreviations for.

By your definition a lot of the runs at Whistler, Winter Park, Keystone, etc... don't qualify as 'downhilling'.

Your quote above is helping to make my point: Downhilling is different things to different people.



Jayem said:


> We shuttled (with the lift) the Moab Rim trail back in the day, THAT was where we wanted (and used) our DH bikes due to all the big launches from/to solid rock.


Really--you need a DH bike to go *down* Moab Rim?

I can ride *up* Moab Rim on a full rigid bike!

I'm not trying to take over your self-appointed job as Head Hemorroid around here, I'm simply pointing out that there are exceptions to every rule. You seem to be trying every verbal end run to keep from admitting this most obvious fact.



Jayem said:


> Holbert, Geronimo and 24th street are where I want my DH bike.


Of these, I've only ridden Holbert, but myself and the guy I was riding with cleaned it first time down. On XC bikes. We're far from good/aggressive tech riders, so why would we need a DH bike there?



Jayem said:


> you seem to be mistaking what a downhill bike is for. It's not for those super-G or long gradual descending rides, it's for crazy steep stuff with jumps, launches, vertical rock-gardens, etc.


You seem to be failing at defining what downhilling is, through no fault (other than stubbornness, and maybe a set of blinders) of your own. It's a lot broader than you're making it out to be.

MC


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

*Update with a bit of vid...*

I still have pages and pages of reports to write on each individual component that makes up this amazing bike. The words-can't-do-it-justice sweetness of the Manitou Dorado, the 4-years-in-the-making burly grippiness of the WTB Dissent, the why-didn't-*I*-think-of-that crazy sensibility of the dishless DT 440 freak hub, and the inexplicable nimbleplush brilliance of the PBJ frame itself.

Each individual part is pretty sweetious, but the whole, dear god the whole is so much greater than the sum...

At any rate--those reports are coming, honest!

Meanwhile, everyone knows that ~4 minutes of video makes up for tens of thousands of words. Perhaps hundreds of thousands of *my* words.

So here's some vid of me riding the PBJ, shot by Skippy "C3" Wixom.






I'm indebted to him for not only planting the seed that got us to BC in the first place, but for all of the encouragement, patience, coaching, pushing, pulling, and laughs along the way.

Many more words and much more vid to come in the next few weeks.

Stay tuned,

MC


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

mikesee said:


> ...shot by Skippy "C3" Wixom.


The dude is a good camera man. He is on your A$$ Obviously trusts you.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mikesee said:


> So by that definition there is ZERO downhilling in MI, MN, WI, IA, NE, KS, MO, FLA, NJ, IL, and about ten other states whose names I don't know the abbreviations for.
> .


For the most part yes, although a few of those do have some bigger hills with DH runs, abeit shorter than most, but on the other hand many of those are flat and they may have some skills parks or rides with terrain features, but it ain't downhilling. And no, I don't *need* my DH bike to go down the Moab Rim trail, I need it to do that and hit all of the big jumps/drops and everything that used to exist there back in the day.


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## Davidcopperfield (Jan 17, 2007)

Skippy distilled his own version of our collective helmet/still/handheld video down into this:





Some of it is him leading, some of it is me. With very few exceptions, if the rider out front has a pack on, it's him on a Rocky Flatline Park. No pack? Me on the PBJ.

Makes me wanna get back up there PDQ, snow be damned...

MC


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## PCinSC (Oct 25, 2005)

Davidcopperfield said:


> Skippy distilled his own version of our collective helmet/still/handheld video down into this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Forgot to switch logins there, huh?

The video is incredible though, nice job.


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## bobbotron (Nov 28, 2007)

PCinSC said:


> Forgot to switch logins there, huh?
> 
> The video is incredible though, nice job.


Seriously! Wow, finding out MC is DC is like finding out who's Keyser Söze.


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## lubes17319 (Dec 19, 2005)

These are in GA, so only rigid 29-ers need apply, non?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

PCinSC said:


> Forgot to switch logins there, huh?
> 
> The video is incredible though, nice job.


Just because the dude stalks me doesn't mean he *is* me.


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## LeeL (Jan 12, 2004)

ken - I didn't realize you'd gone over to the 29er side? That was very nice of you to not point the visitors down Starfish or GMG in the wet.

Alan - if you read this - thanks for letting me follow you down the lines on Moore Fun and im still working on the video.

Nice video mike. Showcases the bike well


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## ebxtreme (Jan 6, 2004)

Davidcopperfield said:


> Makes me wanna get back up there PDQ, snow be damned...
> 
> MC


Ha....I love how it ends with you guys getting berated for bringing your bikes upstairs!


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Jayem said:


> For the most part yes, although a few of those do have some bigger hills with DH runs, abeit shorter than most, but on the other hand many of those are flat and they may have some skills parks or rides with terrain features, but it ain't downhilling.


I guess Diablo isn't real DH as its <1100 ft vertical? I'm going to have to re-assess my rider label as DH/FR/AM/29/XC/Trials rider to FR/AM/29/XC/Trials.


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## sittingduck (Apr 26, 2005)

Great video.... looks like a blast.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

thefriar said:


> I guess Diablo isn't real DH as its <1100 ft vertical? I'm going to have to re-assess my rider label as DH/FR/AM/29/XC/Trials rider to FR/AM/29/XC/Trials.


WTF? Can you not read? First of all, I chose to use ~1000 feet as my criteria, I don't know how you came up with 1100, but 900, 1000, and 1100 are all pretty darn close to 1000. I even said that there might be some exceptions. Seriously, read what I said, there's plenty of allowance for that, on the other hand, no, there is no DHing in Florida.


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## MTB-AHOLIC (Oct 8, 2005)

lubes17319 said:


> These are in GA, so only rigid 29-ers need apply, non?


I ride there every week lol...you know paul?


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## MTB-AHOLIC (Oct 8, 2005)

lubes17319 said:


> These are in GA, so only rigid 29-ers need apply, non?


I ride there about every week lol...you know paul?


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Jayem said:


> WTF? Can you not read? First of all, I chose to use ~1000 feet as my criteria, I don't know how you came up with 1100, but 900, 1000, and 1100 are all pretty darn close to 1000. I even said that there might be some exceptions. Seriously, read what I said, there's plenty of allowance for that, on the other hand, no, there is no DHing in Florida.


Rounding error. Pivottables all day make numbers blur together.


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## lubes17319 (Dec 19, 2005)

MTB-AHOLIC said:


> I ride there about every week lol...you know paul?


Yep....& Boomer as well. (Who will be passing through my place soon on his way back from BC)

Used to ride w/Paul & crew weekly when I lived in AL, around '98-2001.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

I've been rolling on the big wheels for a while now and love it. I finally feel like my XC bikes fit. My Superfly and Racer X 29er both look so proportional with the big wheels and big frame that I've even had people tell me that they weren't 29ers! I love the rollover capabilities and the in-the-bike feel of the big wheels.

I wish I had time to take Mike down something a bit trickier but we ran out of daylight. Even so, the trails were very slippery with that dry spell followed by a day of rain slime. I was definitely impressed with how easily Mike adjusted to the vague feeling of the slick trails.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

bog said:


> I wish I had time to take Mike down something a bit trickier but we ran out of daylight. Even so, the trails were very slippery with that dry spell followed by a day of rain slime. I was definitely impressed with how easily Mike adjusted to the vague feeling of the slick trails.


I was glad to get out when I did...

Would love to see some more of it, and with any luck next year's trip will be twice as long.

It was easy to adapt with you showing me *exactly* where to put my wheels on every line.

Thanks again for the guide service--super fun day.

MC


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## Davidcopperfield (Jan 17, 2007)

*Simply had to be done*

About a month ago all of the lift-served riding areas that I could easily get to closed down. Like, as in for the season. Like, as in, not reopening until next summer, some 7+ months away.

Without lifts I can't really ride this bike until ~June, right?

Well--that's not true. I can ride it plenty if I wanna become a shuttle monkey.

Hmmm... lemme think for a minute...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

...screw that crap.

I bolted on a front der, shifter, and a 20t granny.


Full 11-34 cluster out back.


Lighter brakes, plus a crisp set o' proto rims to suss out.


Flipped a bargain-bin offset seatpost the wrong way around.


Accepted a little hand-written mojo from someone in Wisconsin...



Hopped on and rode it to the top of the local loops.


Slowly, of course--it is ~39lbs after all.


Climbing wasn't important when the geo was considered, so of course it isn't ideal. Short cockpit, VERY upright, floppy front end, low bottom bracket, etc...


But all of that beats the hell outta shuttling or waiting 7 months to ride it again...


You do what you gotta do.




and another for ya





It ain't gonna become my go-to XC bike. Ever. But when the mood strikes, or when the guys wanna go to Moab, or St. G, or The Swell, or...

...well. It oughta work pretty good then.

Cheers
MC


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Davidcopperfield said:


> Continues unabashed stalking...


If there's a mod here, can you please boot or ban this goof? I'm tired of the stalking.

Thanks,

MC


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## Kiwi19 (Jun 23, 2008)

Hi Guys,

Long time viewer, first time caller. I'm trying to get an email through to Lenz, I'm sold! I gotta get me some PBJ but I'm not getting any replies on [email protected] Is this still the correct address?

Kiwi19


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Mike what is the clearence with the Dissent 2.5 in the rear. Its has to be real close


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## Davidcopperfield (Jan 17, 2007)

Kiwi19 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Long time viewer, first time caller. I'm trying to get an email through to Lenz, I'm sold! I gotta get me some PBJ but I'm not getting any replies on [email protected] Is this still the correct address?
> 
> Kiwi19


Contact the Lenz spokesman 
http://forums.mtbr.com/member.php?u=456349


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

sikocycles said:


> Mike what is the clearence with the Dissent 2.5 in the rear. Its has to be real close


Yep--pretty dang close on the first 5 protos that Devin built. But those were made spur of the moment with off-the-shelf stuff, so he's redesigned the chainstay yoke to clear Dissent (or any other true 2.5) for production. Dissent is the only tire that's tight in these protos--every other 29" tire, including Kodiak, fits fine.

Some recent ride pics. Really enjoying this bike, as are all of the folks that show up to demo it.








Cheers,

MC


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Some recent ride pics. Really enjoying this bike, as are all of the folks that show up to demo it.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> ...


Is this the drop at the end of the last video? If so, looks like "next time" came.

Nice job upping the ante.

Are you able to lower that reversed set back seat enough for those kinds of shenanigans? That seat tube is pretty short.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

KRob said:


> Is this the drop at the end of the last video? If so, looks like "next time" came.
> 
> Nice job upping the ante.
> 
> Are you able to lower that reversed set back seat enough for those kinds of shenanigans? That seat tube is pretty short.


Yes, and yes.

I wouldn't argue if the saddle could be dropped more, but it's going down 3+ inches so that's really more than enough.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Some fun clips from some really fun rides the last few weeks.






_(You can see it in HD if you click on the word VIMEO and watch it there......................................................................................................._^^^.....)

Life is good, eh?!

MC


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Some fun clips from some really fun rides the last few weeks.
> 
> MC


One of your best videos to date showing the fun of these bikes.

Lots of other faces on different frames. Will this bike entice them to big wheels?

Nice to see you go off the bench at 1:00. A first on this bike?

Also, the move at 1:28 looks super sketchy.

Finally, the tiny dog following the rider later in the vid cracked me up.


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

mikesee said:


> Yep--pretty dang close on the first 5 protos that Devin built. But those were made spur of the moment with off-the-shelf stuff, so he's redesigned the chainstay yoke to clear Dissent (or any other true 2.5) for production. Dissent is the only tire that's tight in these protos--every other 29" tire, including Kodiak, fits fine.
> 
> Some recent ride pics. Really enjoying this bike, as are all of the folks that show up to demo it.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mike. My XL is ordered and just waiting for it. Now I have to order the Dorado and get some wheels or I just may use the wheels off my LB.


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## Funrover (Oct 4, 2006)

Great vid!


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## silver62 (Jul 10, 2008)

thanks for the new video.


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Nice stuff. Makes me want to ride..... oh, wait. I _always_ want to ride. It makes me want to ride, uh, more.:thumbsup:

Thanks Mike.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

PCinSC said:


> Davidcopperfield said:
> 
> 
> > Skippy distilled his own version of our collective helmet/still/handheld video down into this:
> ...


Ha! BUSTED!!! Should have figured MC was DC... what a lame-o...


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## A. Nony Moose (Aug 18, 2004)

sikocycles said:


> Now I have to order the Dorado and get some wheels or I just may use the wheels off my LB.


btw, I spoke with Craig @ Avalanche and he says running the 7" kit in the DHF8 fork gives the necessary clearance.. :thumbsup: 
(i scanned the thread and didn't see that anyone had directly inquired)


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

I have talked to him also. Avy would be my first choice if it would work.


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Not sure where to post this but I guess here is good.
Lunchbox on a decent size drop





Chris (aka sikocycles) from dfrancefort on Vimeo.

Same drop from the front


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Funny how 6'5" dudes can make 8' drops look small... they seem to do the same thing to 29er wheels as well.


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## Davidcopperfield (Jan 17, 2007)

Any more DH guys riding it?


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

those are getting out of control man


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## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

Why would anyone buy a 29er DH bike?
The longer wheelbase of a 29er and bigger wheels make sudden directional change harder work than a 26er. Not to mention 29er's are flex prone. They aren't the characteristics you want in a DH bike.


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## Dougie (Aug 29, 2004)

SV11 said:


> Why would anyone buy a 29er DH bike?


Didn't you see the video above? They can take weak drops to flat with no problems! I'm going to buy one right now.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

SV11 said:


> Why would anyone buy a 29er DH bike?
> The longer wheelbase of a 29er and bigger wheels make sudden directional change harder work than a 26er. Not to mention 29er's are flex prone. They aren't the characteristics you want in a DH bike.




Might want to look before you leap next time.

Small wheelbase - 46
Large - 48

And I don't know if you've noticed, but literally every modern DH bike is built for stability at speeds. Gone are the days of 67 degree HA being slack, and gone are the days that somebody is willing to settle for a 66-67 degree HA for better turning. I don't know if you've noticed, because you're on an older bike, but have a look at some of the comparable numbers from WC race bikes. HA is a little tricky, because with the bigger wheel you have a different amount of fork rake, but 64.5 seems pretty inline with the slackest out there (29ers typically run 1-2 degrees steeper to get a similar ride as a 26). CS seems pretty right in line, slightly on the long side at 17.375, rather then 17.3, but if that .075 really holds you back that much, I'd be pretty surprised. BB right at 14.0, short cockpit etc etc.

Also, I can only assume that you mean 29er wheels are flex prone, because suggesting that the frame is anymore flex prone is retarded. And as mentioned, with larger hub flanges, you have about the same spoke length as a regular 26 inch wheel. And also, if you know how to build a wheel correctly, with nice spokes, big flange hub, and decent rims, you can build even a 29er wheel to be as stiff as you could possibly need.

There are reasons not to get a 29er DH bike, but what you listed are not them. They're not perfect for everything - I don't know if you ride any mega steep stuff, but when you need to get your buttox over the rear wheel, a bigger wheel is detrimental (or I assume it is, having bumped my butt on my 26inch wheel before).

Also, if you're a short rider, then it probably doesn't make that much sense. For somebody 5'11+, its probably pretty fun being able to take faster and more tech lines and steamroll them.

Also, last of all, I think tire selection still kinda blows. That one is the biggest obstacle - its difficult to make a pinch flat resistant tire that doesn't weigh a ton for a 26inch wheel bike, and 29ers are even worse. But, I suspect I'd be willing to take the hit on tire weight if there were some tires with decent tread out there, but I think selection still kinda blows. However, with the bigger contact patch, there is potential for it to be way better. Have you ever gotten to drift a flat corner on a 29er? Holy cow its amazing, its as smooth and stable as drifting a car, there is no skitter of it digging into suspension, its ridiculously smooth and predictable.

So yeah, they're not the second coming of christ - not as fun to whip, they're not as good in the steeps, if you're short they're probably not worth it, and tire selection is still a bit weak, but if your goal is just going fast through tech/rocks and hitting gnarred out corners, they're ridiculously butter.


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