# Dream Bike: Short Travel 29er with a Gear Box + High Pivot



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

It's my dream,. the best suspension design and the best drivetrain design, but at what costs?

There's only a two bikes that fit in this category:

The Cavalerie Anatrail Cavalerie Bikes⎪Anatrail en
The story behind these bikes is he designers of the Effigear gear box didn't have any takers for their drivetrain, so they created a bike company to sell the gear box. It's a nine speed box, some advantages over the Pinion, weighs a tad more than the 12sp Pinion, has fewer gears than the Pinion 12sp. This bike is rare, I'm not sure anyone in the states owns one, reviews are scarce, so I'd buying kinda blind. Geo looks good and the frame appears to be very robust. I like that it has shorter chain stays to start (425mm); high pivot chain stay bikes get longer through the travel. The biggest downside is price: $5000 USD plus shipping for the frame, transmission, rear hub, and headset.

The Deviate Guide Guide - Deviate Cycles
The Guide is no longer in production and it doesn't appear they are going to replace it. It's also 27.5 and has more travel than I want.

Options:
I could just get a Pinion bike like the Katipo Trail 29er, it has a lighter weight 12sp gearbox, but it's not a high pivot, and it's nearly the same price as the Cavaerie Anatrail.

I could get a Deviate Highlander or Forbidden Druid, both are high pivots, the Guide is made kinda locally, and these bikes are less expensive even when I factor in the added cost of a drivetrain.

Downsides of high pivot: Squishy/boggy when climbing, more fraction/drag, more complicated design/upkeep
Upsides of high pivot: bottomless travel, better at square hits, handles repeated hits better
Downsides of gear box: Added weight, added complexity, added $$$, added friction, shifting limitations
Upsides of gear box: Longer life, reduced maintenance, no derailleur, belt drive option


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## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

why a gearbox?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> It's my dream,. the best suspension design and the best drivetrain design, but at what costs?
> 
> There's only a two bikes that fit in this category:
> 
> ...


I wish EFFIGEAR would get more love. They have a trigger shifter that seems to elude pinion.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

diamondback1x9 said:


> why a gearbox?


"Upsides of gear box: Longer life, reduced maintenance, no derailleur, belt drive option"

I'm a rock lover, nothing is too technical, so I trash derailleurs, housings, etc ... I also dislike how sensitive drivetrains are to mud, sand, etc ...

A gearbox is the answer, but it comes at a cost.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

TwoTone said:


> I wish EFFIGEAR would get more love. They have a trigger shifter that seems to elude pinion.


If there was more demand for gearboxes and effigear drives were more available, but Pinion seems to have the market sewn up for now.


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## Gearboxman (Feb 24, 2021)

Nurse Ben said:


> If there was more demand for gearboxes and effigear drives were more available, but Pinion seems to have the market sewn up for now.


Right, Pinion owns the market, that's why Effigear is about to unveil the Mimic, the Effigear tech in the same format as Pinion:



__ https://www.facebook.com/Effigear/posts/3629822370406392


Also Effigear is in partnership with Valeo for the next gen ebike moto system:








Valeo Unveils Automatic E-Bike Transmission


Declaring it is removing all the “pain points” of riding an electric bicycle, French auto supplier Valeo introduced, Tuesday, what it calls its Smart e-Bike system.




www.forbes.com





#gearbox4all


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

IIRC Neil @ Cycle Monkey had an Anatrail last time I saw him. This was a few years ago but he also had a truckload of Taniwha's. He's into alternate drivetrain systems.


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## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> If there was more demand for gearboxes


I think there's interest. If they could get the weight, friction and cost within striking range of a standard setup AND convince one or two of the majors to sell a bike with it, things would get very interesting. Say 1/2 pound more, 1-2% more friction and a modest* price premium.

*Whatever that means, I'm not even sure!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Gearboxman said:


> Right, Pinion owns the market, that's why Effigear is about to unveil the Mimic, the Effigear tech in the same format as Pinion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't get on Facebook, so what exactly is this new format?

I like Effigear because the current design lends itself best to a high pivot no chain growth design.

Do you think they'll change that?

The Blackbird isn't even available yet, so I'm kinda suprised they'd come out with a new gear box without having that update present on the carbon framed Blackbird.

Any idea if Cavalerie will build a short travel bike like the Blackbird in carbon?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

goldsbar said:


> I think there's interest. If they could get the weight, friction and cost within striking range of a standard setup AND convince one or two of the majors to sell a bike with it, things would get very interesting. Say 1/2 pound more, 1-2% more friction and a modest* price premium.
> 
> *Whatever that means, I'm not even sure!


I don't think a gear box will ever be lighter, cheaper, or have less friction than a derailleur set up.

I do think it's reasonable to buy a gear box for what it does offer and I'm sure we'll see more gearboxes on ebikes in time; I'm not looking for an ebike anytime soon.

I'm interested in how the two "holy grails" can be combined: High Pivot and Gearbox.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Nurse Ben said:


> It's my dream,. the best suspension design and the best drivetrain design, but at what costs?
> 
> There's only a two bikes that fit in this category:
> 
> ...


I believe if you ever get your dream bike, you will regret it once riding it.

No one needs a 35#, terrible pedaling, short travel, un-sellable bicycle.

Good luck.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Suns_PSD said:


> I believe if you ever get your dream bike, you will regret it once riding it.
> 
> No one needs a 35#, terrible pedaling, short travel, un-sellable bicycle.
> 
> Good luck.


Yes, there's that risk, but I hope it rides well.

I'm less concerned about the weight as my current bike is in that same weight range and it works fine, I tend to ride hard and go big, so a burly bike is what I need.

The high pivot is probably my number one priority, the gear box is the dream component.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Not short travel but interesting...









Bike Check: The BREWser, a 184mm Travel, Crazy-Slack Experimental Gearbox Bike - Pinkbike


The BREWser is what happens when someone isn't afraid to put their wildest ideas into action.




www.pinkbike.com


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## robaindeboue (Feb 25, 2021)

Nurse Ben said:


> I don't think a gear box will ever be lighter, cheaper, or have less friction than a derailleur set up.
> 
> I do think it's reasonable to buy a gear box for what it does offer and I'm sure we'll see more gearboxes on ebikes in time; I'm not looking for an ebike anytime soon.
> 
> I'm interested in how the two "holy grails" can be combined: High Pivot and Gearbox.


Hi Ben, actually effigear gearboxes have less frictions than classic derailleur (even if it's out of the box and correctly setup). Lighter is difficult but there are some ideas and why 200/300 grams more are important when they are located where you can't feell the added weight... and cheaper... that's not the point. Gearboxes are cheaper on a long term use (min 5 years) if we take care of Sram and Shimano recommandations for drivetrain maintenance.



Nurse Ben said:


> I can't get on Facebook, so what exactly is this new format?
> 
> I like Effigear because the current design lends itself best to a high pivot no chain growth design.
> 
> ...


Yes you're right, no chain growth design only for the Anakin V1 and the Anatrail V1, because the main pivot axle is on the gearbox output. The Blackbird has a little bit of chain growth due to the fact that the main pivot point is not located on the gearbox output, but directly onto the frame. But chain growth isn't the main point, if belt drive isn't everything for you is perfectly fine because the chain has no "offset" like on a casette, the chainline is fully direct and your chain last much more (that's actually one of the main longevity problem for bicycle drivetrain). So putting a chain on a gearbox bike, even with chain growth, it doesn't matter.

To sumup the Blackbird have chain growth, the future e-bike will have chain growth also (check the motor prototype Effigear-Valeo). And a short travel carbon 29er gearbox bike is scheduled but you will have to wait few years....

Right now the Blackbird is on it's way (finally...) 
We have no problems to say we were learning a bit with carbon fiber and we prefer to be sure of our products !

And at the same time, we are working on our new gearbox platform (called the mimic) that's compatible with the 6 bolts standard of Pinion, stay tuned


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## Gearboxman (Feb 24, 2021)

Nurse Ben said:


> I can't get on Facebook, so what exactly is this new format?
> 
> I like Effigear because the current design lends itself best to a high pivot no chain growth design.
> 
> ...


The Effigear Original (the one on Cavalerie Bikes) will stay at our catalogue, and Cavalerie bikes will keep that format for our Gravity Segment (Blackbird&#8230
The new Effigear Mimic has been developed for our customers using already Pinion.eu allowing them to choose between the two.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

I would love to see the Anatrail in a carbon edition with updated geometry like the Blackbird and high anti-squat values. Perfect travel (135mm) for an all-mountain bike for home trails and high mountains alike. That said, I would not really be able to afford it, even though I understand where the price comes from seeing how you guys are doing so much from your own development.

I wonder how a single tensioner on the chainstay would work compared to the double jockey one at the bottom bracket on the blackbird. Too much compromise on unsprung weight/ too much chance of the chain slapping against the underside of the chainstay?


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

So what do you mean by a high pivot? High single pivot, or something else?

Definitely intrigued by gearboxes especially with the fun I’ve been having with my clutch lately.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Personally I wonder if you're going to add the weight and drag of an idler anyway like on the Deviate Highlander or the Druid Forbidden/Dreadnought, why not go for an Effigear and get even better suspension performance (low unsprung weight) and very low maintenance?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

CS645 said:


> Personally I wonder if you're going to add the weight and drag of an idler anyway like on the Deviate Highlander or the Druid Forbidden/Dreadnought, why not go for an Effigear and get even better suspension performance (low unsprung weight) and very low maintenance?


The idler is the one thing standing between me and a gearbox FS bike.


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## Nails (Sep 25, 2020)

Is Rolloff not a thing anymore? 

Always wanted the Rolloff guys to get off their rears and make a BB gearbox.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

stripes said:


> So what do you mean by a high pivot? High single pivot, or something else?
> 
> Definitely intrigued by gearboxes especially with the fun I've been having with my clutch lately.


High pivot bikes have a suspension pivot that is located above the chainline, varies from design to design, in some cases it creates a zero or near zero chaningrowth, but mostly it's designed to create a rearward axle path.

I just bought a Forbidden Druid, building it this weekend, should be fun.

I truly want a gearbox bike, but I'd have to ride one before buying, and that's not really an option in these parts.


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## kaiseiken (Feb 5, 2014)

Nurse Ben said:


> High pivot bikes have a suspension pivot that is located above the chainline, varies from design to design, in some cases it creates a zero or near zero chaningrowth, but mostly it's designed to create a rearward axle path.
> 
> I just bought a Forbidden Druid, building it this weekend, should be fun.
> 
> I truly want a gearbox bike, but I'd have to ride one before buying, and that's not really an option in these parts.


I hope this offers another unique perspective from people who may have never ridden a gear box bike or are just going off of reviews/theory.

I've been riding a Cavalerie Anakin (27.5, 160mm) for about a year now, the key benefit here is *lower maintenance* compared to a traditional derailleur/cassette. Most people are okay with the maintenance required on a traditional bike and therefore IMO *should not get a gear box bike*. Speaking from personal experience here are my thoughts overall:

Pros:

Little to no maintenance (oil change every xxx miles, standard over the counter DSG oil)
No chain tensioner (for the Anakin, Anatrail, Falcon), gates CDX belt drive
Climbing performance of high pivot is _much_ better than concentric pivot (single pivot around bottom bracket, no chain tensioner required).
Fixed rear hub (no freewheel, no maintenance, no noise)
Lighter weight compared to IGH (Rohloff, Alfine, Nuvinci)
Instantaneous shifting, shift without pedaling (this is so minor I almost don't even want to put it here).
Cons:

Price (equivalent to the most expensive derailleur).
Slightly heavier overall than the best derailleur/cassette setup.
Have to stop pedaling momentarily to shift to an easier gear, which is opposite of what you're used to
Limited options (Zerode and Cavalerie are really the only FS gearbox frames available at the moment)
Availability, when I purchased from the US I needed to wire transfer money to Effigear/Cavalerie which made me cringe a little but worked out.

I really loved my Kona Bass/Nuvinci set up, but it was built to an ancient standard with no upgrade path (10x135mm axle, 120mm travel, 26" wheels) and it climbed like a bag of potatoes. The Anakin fixed all those problems for me, I was torn between the Zerode Taniwha but that extra belt tensioner pulley is what made me decide to get the Cavalerie instead.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Thanks for the feedback, your bike is rare around these parts.

I bought, built, and sold my Druid in a matter of a few weeks. I am no long a high pivot fanboi, having seen the light I do appreciate the design for what it offers, but I'm not the right audience.

I'm still intrigued by a gearbox, but like you said, it's heavy and if you work on your own stuff then maybe it's not all that necessary, esp considering the downsides.

Where do you live?


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## kaiseiken (Feb 5, 2014)

I'm in Atlanta, GA. Would definitely recommend a Zerode, it's better than the Cavalerie in almost every way: it looks better, is lighter, wider gear range, better distribution in the US, about the same price after all is said and done. Not gonna lie, apart from the extra chain tensioner pulley issue, I went with the Cavalerie because they offer a trigger shifter option (any old Shimano/SRAM 9-speed would work).

I maintain my own bike, but it doesn't mean I enjoy doing it. Every part of the build was designed for little/no maintenance. Cable disc brakes (TRP Spyke), coil shock and fork (Cane Creek DB IL / helm), Tubolito tubes (no sealant). In about 100 hours of actual riding, I've done nothing to my bike but put more air in the tires.


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