# Obstacle strategy, bike limits, and should I try a shorter stem?



## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

OK, so I've encountered a few obstacles that have given me problems at a new trail I've been riding. For anyone in SE MI, these are from Riverbends Park...rated beginner/intermediate online...a great time riding there but this beginner has hit a few tough spots! Hoping for some advice! First off some strategy on tackling some specific obstacles...

#1 is a log pile. The biggest one I've tried to tackle in my short riding experience. It's relatively flat, but bumpy. And lengthy too. I went back and tried 3 times and eventually did make it through, barely, but it was a bumpy ride. Should I be balanced or really try to unweight the front wheel? Should I be pedaling through this or just coasting? Hit it with speed? Go slow and deliberate? What about when it's too deep to pedal...should I be ratcheting through? I was nervous about pedaling through at speed because I felt like I was going to smack a pedal on one of the taller logs. There were several. So I got up some speed and coasted through, was down to a crawl speed by the end.

#2 is a rooty steep (for me anyway) decent. I snapped a pic of this one!







This pic really doesn't do it justice...but it has me sketched out! Those roots are big and the hill is steep, and at the bottom it splits off (I can go either direction and still follow different loops of the trail). I know I'm supposed to get my butt back behind the seat. Can it be done without a dropper post, which I don't have? Should I be on the brakes? And front or rear? Can anyone talk me through how to handle this? Do I feather the brakes down the hill and try to lift the front wheel still over the roots? Thus far I've come up to this twice and walked down both times.

#3 is a log pile that goes up and over a big tree. Another pic!







This guy is pretty tall. I tried a couple times and just felt like my crank was going to bottom out...never made it. Not even sure how to go about this one! Do I have to be able to bunny hop like mad (which I can't do) to get over this?

#4 is a drop down onto a downward sloped hill. Didn't get a pic of this one but it looks like about 20-24" tall and what has me sketched out is it lands onto a decent! Yowza! Looks kinda scary. I haven't tried it...there's another path to avoid it. Now...I've successfully managed to tackle another drop of about the same height at another trail by getting up some good speed and just getting my weight back as far as I could...managing to land with the wheels both at the same time. Feels great! Smooth. But this one lands on a significant downward slope rather than onto level ground like the one I've tackled before. Is there any difference in strategy? Hitting this new sloped landing with the kinda speed I feel like I need to land properly on the other flat landing one would be terrifying. Do I just need a stronger manual technique to avoid nose diving if I go off slower?

The second part of my question is about my bike. I'm riding a Trek Marlin 5, stock except for Race Face Chesters for pedals. No need to explain that it's junky and the fork is trash because I know it's a low level bike...which I chose because I wasn't sure how much I'd even like mountain biking. Whelp, turns out I love it. Can this entry level bike safely tackle the obstacles I've described above? I mean the fork feels almost useless when hitting stuff like that log pile at speed. I've never ridden a bike with an air fork, but I *have* to imagine it feels better than mine does when hitting stuff like that log pile. Mine feels like it's about to snap at any second haha. Can I get down decents like that without a dropper post? Can I hit those drops safely with this bike? Etc. What say you?

Lastly, I'm thinking about trying a shorter stem. Need to measure what I have and report back, but I feel like getting over obstacles and going down hills...even obstacles and descents I've already tackled successfully...would be easier if my weight was a little further back on the bike. Far as I can see a shorter stem would help that. But I don't really want to go wider with my bars due to navigating through some tight trees! Can I do one but not the other? Most of what I read suggests the combo of wide bars and short stem. What's the consensus here?

Thanks all!


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

You can go with a shorter stem without changing your bars. When guys want wider bars it has the effect of making the cockpit shorter. To maintain the same fit a shorter stem is necessary. But if you want to change the fit you can use a different stem as needed. 
For bumpy trails the fork is the most important component on your bike.
You're probably at the level of terrain where a real fork will help a lot. Your bike has a Suntour XCT fork. Suntour doesn't consider it a mtbike component- instead it's for bike paths and smooth trails.
You can get a Raidon air fork through the Suntour Upgrade Program for $200 or so.
Or you can figure how much you'd spend now that you know you like mtbiking. This time of year you can negotiate some good discounts on 2017 bikes at some shops from a manager only.


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

Pics really never accurately represent the terrain. Generally speed can help carry you through or over obstacles. Your bike's spec can be limiting and combined with your lack of experience make for a dangerous situation. While you could ask other trail riders for advice it may not be that helpful as they may have better bikes or technique that give them a wider margin of error or just extra courage. Look at a skills clinic to improve your technique and you'll probably benefit more from that than better components.


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## sinfony78 (Dec 2, 2012)

I'll help with #2. the logs in the other sections are easily ride-able, u just need to get over the mental block of seeing an ascent and descent that's not smooth. if it were all south dirt, u wouldn't have this problem. having a few literal bumps in the road shouldn't make much difference

for #2, try sessioning it a few times. at the top, lower your seat post. don't think about putting your weight behind the saddle, I honestly think people put too much emphasis on that and end up getting way too far behind than necessary. if anything, get lower, meaning bend at the hips and bring your chin closer to the stem. 

u can most likely take this descent at a snail's pace, use more front brake than rear. if u lock up the rear, u'll skid and lose all traction. hit the roots at closer to a 90 degree angle so u keep traction as u ride down


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

eb1888 said:


> You can go with a shorter stem without changing your bars. When guys want wider bars it has the effect of making the cockpit shorter. To maintain the same fit a shorter stem is necessary. But if you want to change the fit you can use a different stem as needed.
> For bumpy trails the fork is the most important component on your bike.
> You're probably at the level of terrain where a real fork will help a lot. Your bike has a Suntour XCT fork. Suntour doesn't consider it a mtbike component- instead it's for bike paths and smooth trails.
> You can get a Raidon air fork through the Suntour Upgrade Program for $200 or so.
> Or you can figure how much you'd spend now that you know you like mtbiking. This time of year you can negotiate some good discounts on 2017 bikes at some shops from a manager only.


This bike actually has an RST Gila fork rather than the Suntour...so I don't think I'm eligible for the upgrade program which is a bummer.

But...aside from the pedals, maybe trying out some round grips as opposed to these chunky ergo ones that came stock, and possibly trying out a shorter stem to shift my weight back a bit and *hopefully* make it easier to learn to manual and bunny hop...I don't want to get upgrade-itis on this entry level bike. I can afford a more expensive bike, and will almost certainly be in the market for one after finishing out this season of riding on what I have. I'll more than likely be looking at a hardtail bike in the $2000 range, which I expect will get me something fairly nice.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

ghoti said:


> While you could ask other trail riders for advice it may not be that helpful as they may have better bikes or technique that give them a wider margin of error or just extra courage. Look at a skills clinic to improve your technique and you'll probably benefit more from that than better components.


I would love to take a skills clinic...but haven't found one in SE MI unfortunately.

There is a beginner group ride (because all of these obstacles can be avoided if desired) that takes place at this course, which I'm looking forward to joining soon. Hoping to learn from the more experienced people in the group and/or the instructors.

I will also ask them about a reference for a skills workshop for sure!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Each log pile is going to be different, but if the first one is like the 2nd, then I'd be walking them at this stage in your skill level. No shame in that. The 2nd one is a tricky one, because you're not crossing the tree completely perpendicular, so it's going to take some extra finesse. If you just tried smashing over it, you'd go down hard because your tires would have a tendency to slide towards the right/away from the photo perspective. So you really have to get the front wheel up on top of that tree, and do the same for the rear, and not rely on traction for it to roll up on top.

With a log pile that's perpendicular to the direction of travel, you can usually do some amount of smashing through. You want momentum, and you don't want to do much pedaling. At most, I'll do a small pedal punch or a 1/2 pedal stroke right at the top when I am working to get my rear wheel over it, but you have to watch clearance. Sometimes stuff isn't piled up to the tree/log high enough for that and it's gotta be 100% momentum and moving your weight around.

As far as weight distribution, you always want a good balanced position over the bike, but you should be dynamic through the whole thing. Right as you enter the pile, you should be preparing to lighten the front end of the bike so you can get up onto the pile smoothly and conserve momentum. Once your front wheel gets on it, your weight needs to come forward again as the bike tilts up underneath you, so your front wheel doesn't continue to lift up on you and cause you to loop out. Then as you crest the top, you need to lighten the front again and adjust to the bike that will now begin tilting down underneath you. Your weight should always be between the axles, though. If it isn't, you're going to have trouble.

That slope in #2 is not that big of a deal. I'd keep my line to the left of the root that runs right along the trail, though. Trying to cross over that root is asking for trouble, and it looks like some people are going extra wide of it because they're scared of the inside line. Don't be afraid of chunk. Stand up, keep your pedals more or less level with the ground, drop your heels, and let your arms and legs be extra suspension and try to float through it. Creeping through will exaggerate the bumps. Roll through with a bit of momentum and an eye for which direction you want to go at the bottom to help you choose your line (for example, if I was headed right, I'd cut as close to the tree as possible, but if I wanted to go left, I'd probably be just barely to the left of that root running along the trail). Stopping to see how other folks are riding it is never a bad idea. For example, from the pic, you can see some tire tracks heading left, and they pretty much took the line I described).

Lay off the drops for now, to be honest. Without seeing this particular one, it's hard to say. Some similar height drops I know are totally rollable (your tires never have to leave the ground, so they're great for progression), while some are not, making them all-or-nothing. The one you are describing has what's referred to as a "transition" (meaning, the downward slope in the landing). The goal here is also to land with both wheels at the same time, and the slope of the ground helps keep the impact to the bike/you lower, so it should feel super smooth if done right. Still, though, you actually wind up airborne for longer on these than a similar drop to flat. And the bike needs to tilt to match the slope of the landing. You probably ought to make sure you're able to achieve a really good range of motion on the bike and be really smooth with it.

You can totally adjust stem length of your bike to make you more comfortable. start out with cheap stems to get the fit set (some shops might even have some "test" stems you can use until you decide what you like) before you drop a decent amount of money on one. I've traded stuff for stems I've used for fitting before. When changing stem length, don't change too much all at once. Make small adjustments. 10mm can make a significant difference. I'd probably never make an adjustment of more than 20mm at once.

You don't need a dropper post, but sometimes it can make it easier to put your body where you want it. This is especially true if you have short arms that limit your range of motion. At this point, I'd put a better fork as a higher priority upgrade than a dropper, and I'd probably rent or demo some bikes with droppers before going out and buying one, because they're expensive to just "try out". It took awhile for me to convince myself that one would be worthwhile. I rented and demo'd bikes that had them, and rarely used them. But one day I was riding a trail where it occurred to me that a dropper would be really beneficial, and that's when I finally bought one.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

sinfony78 said:


> I'll help with #2. the logs in the other sections are easily ride-able, u just need to get over the mental block of seeing an ascent and descent that's not smooth. if it were all south dirt, u wouldn't have this problem. having a few literal bumps in the road shouldn't make much difference
> 
> for #2, try sessioning it a few times. at the top, lower your seat post. don't think about putting your weight behind the saddle, I honestly think people put too much emphasis on that and end up getting way too far behind than necessary. if anything, get lower, meaning bend at the hips and bring your chin closer to the stem.
> 
> u can most likely take this descent at a snail's pace, use more front brake than rear. if u lock up the rear, u'll skid and lose all traction. hit the roots at closer to a 90 degree angle so u keep traction as u ride down


Thanks for the advice on #2! I will force myself to try this next time I ride here. I know I can do it...those roots and stuff are a mental block. I just need to go slow and be careful not to catch and bottom out my shock and go OTB.

For the logs in the other sections...it's not just the ascent/decent being bumpy. I've gone over ups and downs this high before. It's that the large tree on top is more of a drop on the other side, so if I ride over it I might nose dive and/or bottom out my pedals or crank on that log. It's nastier than it looks! How do you get through this stuff that's deep enough where if you pedal you'll hit the terrain?


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

guitarguy said:


> Thanks for the advice on #2! I will force myself to try this next time I ride here. I know I can do it...those roots and stuff are a mental block. I just need to go slow and be careful not to catch and bottom out my shock and go OTB.
> 
> For the logs in the other sections...it's not just the ascent/decent being bumpy. I've gone over ups and downs this high before. It's that the large tree on top is more of a drop on the other side, so if I ride over it I might nose dive and/or bottom out my pedals or crank on that log. It's nastier than it looks! How do you get through this stuff that's deep enough where if you pedal you'll hit the terrain?


With the rooty pic I'd do like Harold said and get as close to the tree but come from the right. Where your tire is. You should be able to miss the drop for what it looks like in the pic. Or go wide to the right. But it could get more slick after a rain. Probaby get comfortable with both. Until you can feel comfortable leaning back and going straight through.

Its best to peddle and gain speed, when you can peddle. The coast through.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

1. There not a lot that hooks on a wet tree or bark, so hitting anything damp at an angle can be a recipe for disaster. Be prepared to go with the slide on any of these wooded features. 

2. Walk your bike over various lines of the feature to prove to yourself that the BB/chainring can make it. (If you have a double, its ok to hit the ring on wood) Also Think about where the pedals need to be if you require a partial pedal stroke while going over. a common beginner move is to try to pedal up an obstacle or ledge. The speed is generated while accelerating into the object, pedaling is stopped and cranks are setup at optimal position `10 and4 oclock (11/5)with an appropriately "hard" gear where power van be applied without spinning the pedal into the obstacle. 

3. Other than the good advice from the people above, I would work the major movements in the parking lot/carpark. Watch Jeff Lenosky's latest video on "the punch" on youtube. Master the timing of the rocking motion as well as you deweight the rear.

Our parking lots often have big boulders that have been dug up while they built the structure, you may have to settle for a short 2-3 step staircase to session these moved. 





4. take a skills class or ride in a group ride with very skilled local riders who are down to help you session.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

guitarguy said:


> This bike actually has an RST Gila fork rather than the Suntour...so I don't think I'm eligible for the upgrade program which is a bummer.
> 
> But...aside from the pedals, maybe trying out some round grips as opposed to these chunky ergo ones that came stock, and possibly trying out a shorter stem to shift my weight back a bit and *hopefully* make it easier to learn to manual and bunny hop...I don't want to get upgrade-itis on this entry level bike. I can afford a more expensive bike, and will almost certainly be in the market for one after finishing out this season of riding on what I have. I'll more than likely be looking at a hardtail bike in the $2000 range, which I expect will get me something fairly nice.


I'd suggest a Stache 7 or higher.

You can get a Suntour Epixon off ebay for about the same price of $200.
2017 Suntour Epixon 26er 27.5er 29er Remote/Manual Lockout Air Suspension Fork | eBay


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

On youtube we can find lots ot tutorials, sometime practicing on grass in a park where a fall is quite safe for the rider and the bike is worth it. There is no shame in walking so you can learn by practicing with your bike out of the shop.


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## Fairbanks007 (Sep 5, 2009)

Dude, Riverbends is literally in my back yard. PM me and we can go for a ride there. What you're experiencing is totally normal for a new(ish) rider. Riding with some other folks can lessen the learning curve.


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## RonSonic (Jan 8, 2005)

Take Fairbanks up on the invite. Following a wheel is educational. I've ridden a long time but really am not all that skilled, following allows me to realize just how fast a section can be taken and see how it's done. 

Hardware improvements can help. When I went from a Suntour XCM to a Rockshox 30 Gold the first big difference was two pounds off the front of the bike. Much easier to get it up over obstructions. The other diff was a tremendous improvement in traction. 

Some of the stuff you're showing will benefit from just confidence, especially those downhill bits. Strap on a helmet and relax. As crazy as some of this stuff looks even a bad crash is rarely really dangerous. 

The jump with a down sloped landing is a bit nice if it gives you some area to run out on, it will land your rear wheel before the front so just get the weight back and try to land the front gently.

Where I live we've got a great club with classes and group rides that break out into advanced, intermediate and slow riders. Helped me learn a bit.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

eb1888 said:


> I'd suggest a Stache 7 or higher.
> 
> You can get a Suntour Epixon off ebay for about the same price of $200.
> 2017 Suntour Epixon 26er 27.5er 29er Remote/Manual Lockout Air Suspension Fork | eBay


Funny...I was gazing at this exact bike earlier today! I may pick one up in the spring when the 2018's go on sale or something like that.

Not sure upgrading my fork in the meantime....I dunno......

The one above is $217 plus whatever the LBS charges to install it. Probably total of approaching what I paid for the whole bike.

And money aside...it's going on a cheap Marlin frame. Is it even worthwhile...? I mean the next bike I buy will more than likely have a better fork stock than this upgraded one.

Should I decide to sell the bike, will this upgrade yield a better return when I sell it?

I'm on the fence of selling the Marlin vs keeping it, maybe with some more road friendly tires and the lockout switched on all the time, and using it when Mrs. Guitarguy and I commute to dinner or cruise a paved path.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Fairbanks007 said:


> Dude, Riverbends is literally in my back yard. PM me and we can go for a ride there. What you're experiencing is totally normal for a new(ish) rider. Riding with some other folks can lessen the learning curve.


Hell yeah I'll absolutely take you up on this man! I'd love the opportunity to learn from someone with some experience that can give me some pointers and critique any bad habits I already learned.

I'll respond to your PM.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Ordering a couple stems to try out. They're cheapies from Amazon, but for less than 20 bucks I can try out 2 different lengths and see how they work/fit/etc.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M7XMINS/ref=pd_luc_rh_spmrai?psc=1

Hopefully they help to get more weight back on the bike! I also did the "test" where I put my elbow on the front of the saddle and my longest finger was not at the center of my 100mm stem, more like 1/4 of the way up, just past the steering tube. So the shorter stem should (maybe?) help fit better.

I have also noticed on some of the hills I'm trekking up, that the back tire occasionally spins out. I've never had an issue with the front wheel popping up as of yet. So hopefully this doesn't hurt climbing ability.

They look like they should work based on the specs. The 7 deg rise and the 31.8 mm handlebar diameter both match up to the specs listed for my bike.

The only thing I couldn't find on the Trek site to see if it was the same dimension is the Front Fork Diameter, which on these is listed at 28.6 mm. Is this a standard?


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

guitarguy said:


> Funny...I was gazing at this exact bike earlier today! I may pick one up in the spring when the 2018's go on sale or something like that.
> 
> Not sure upgrading my fork in the meantime....I dunno......
> 
> ...


Fork will make a huge difference in the ride and performance. On a low end bike a higher end fork probably won't make too much difference in resale. You'd be better off either keeping the fork for a different bike, selling it separately, or just getting a new bike rather than upgrading the low-end Marin.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

guitarguy said:


> The only thing I couldn't find on the Trek site to see if it was the same dimension is the Front Fork Diameter, which on these is listed at 28.6 mm. Is this a standard?


Should be pretty standard. Forks are 1 1/8" (28.6mm) up top where the stem attaches. That's pretty standard. The only thing that really varies is whether it's tapered at the bottom or not. Lower end forks/frame generally do not taper. They tend to still be straight steer tube which has no bearing on the stem. That would only come into play when/if you change out the fork. You'd need to make sure that the replacement is also a straight steerer unless the frame allows for tapered. If it does it will have a 44mm headtube. My son has a Marlin 6 and I'm pretty certain it's not setup for tapered. But I haven't really looked at it that close to see. I have no intentions of upgrading the fork. I thought about upgrading the drivetrain though since I have a bunch of SRAM X.9 stuff in the shed collecting dust and some BB7 brakes as well.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

guitarguy said:


> Funny...I was gazing at this exact bike earlier today! I may pick one up in the spring when the 2018's go on sale or something like that.
> 
> Not sure upgrading my fork in the meantime....I dunno......
> 
> ...


A fork install is one of the easiest things to do.




Use YT and take the time, make the effort, to maintain your bike yourself. Everything is new but nothing is difficult. And it pays because no one from a shop will come out and help you on a trail.

If you go with a new fork get the stanchion top lockout. You'll not need or use a lockout for your front suspension. I've never used mine on a hardtail.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

You can actually get a discount easier now through the winter then you can in the spring- which is high bike sales season. For a 2018 15 off plus 3 more for cash plus tax with no special shipping is it until after June. 60% no refund down is necessary at the time of order. Only a manager can, if he wants to, make a deal. Some may others won't like the guy at the Hall Road shop. Walled Lake and the Ann Arbor shop are the better bets. You may have to make an appointment to negotiate. No sales guy can do anything and they're trained to tell you that. Only a manager has the power. I characterized my last purchase as a Black Friday deal.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

guitarguy said:


> Hell yeah I'll absolutely take you up on this man! I'd love the opportunity to learn from someone with some experience that can give me some pointers and critique any bad habits I already learned.
> 
> I'll respond to your PM.


This is the best move you can make. A little riding with an experienced rider will likely give you a whole new way of looking at things on a bike.

Shopping on the other hand is extremely unlikely to get you over, down, or through anything more than you're already getting. Some people wildly overestimate spending money as a method to ride better.


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## Crazy_Nate (Jun 18, 2017)

A shorter stem can be a nice upgrade for not much money. Nice 760-780mm bars aren't too expensive. Eventually you will run into limits for lots of everything else (drivetrain, tires, wheels, etc). But I'd worry about those when you get there (something will break).

Looking at a few pictures of the headtube...it appears to be straight (not tapered). I'd learn to repair the bike as necessary, ride it and maybe in a year look at buying a nice rugged hardtail. You can get a nice hardtail for ~$800, but sometimes upping your budget to $1200-1500 gets you a lot nicer fork / 1x drivetrain.

Don't sweat that you can't do all the features on a trail. Walk them, work on your skills, and in time you will be able to ride them. Work on your slow speed skills, balance, flat turns. You don't necessarily have to be on a trail to practice those.


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## tylercall88 (Feb 5, 2016)

First off, don't get too discouraged by your bike. You can learn to hit almost anything on that bike, its just when you decide to start hitting obstacles faster/harder that you'll start pushing the bike to/past its limits. I used to ride MTB trails over a decade ago on a 20" BMX bike because I was 17 and couldn't afford a mountain bike. I'd even argue that the slower speeds you'll use to clear these spots on your bike will make you that much better when you upgrade from the Marlin to a more capable bike. 

With that out of the way, here's some pointers:

1) Learn to trackstand. It's an incredibly easy skill to learn and YOU WILL use it on the trails. It will really help you confidently creep down/up technical sections of the trail. Trackstands also help with slow speed ratcheting. Most of the features you showed will be easier with more speed but can also be done slower. It'll be harder that way, but it can be a lot of fun!

2) Learn to do a Bunny Hop. Feature #3 is tough to get a gauge for size, but in the event that its too big for a bunny hop, just knowing the motions/physics of a bunny hop helps immensely with performing up-and-overs. Personally, I use the body motion of a bunny hop to get over 4ft-tall obstacles like the one pictured in #3, but I sure as hell can't bunny hop 4ft high. It just helps the lower the weight at the wheels and to ensure the wheels don't get stuck between the smaller logs that are stacked up to make a ramp over the big one. 

Additionally, something that I do for fun on some steeps (which may help with feature #2) is lock up the back wheel and just slide down, while using the front brake to control speed. It only works on grades that are too steep for the rear brake to actually work and comes in handy when its steeps that are filled with tight switchbacks because you can just make the rear wheel fishtail around everything. Be careful with that front brake though, because you will easily send yourself OTB on a descent. Not sure this would help with feature #2, since it's relatively straight, but it might. And let me stress, THIS IS SOMETHING I DO FOR FUN, haha. Its just for goofing around, but it does come in handy on runs where I'm scouting the terrain. 

Bottom line: Just have fun whether you're riding your Trek Marlin or a $10,000 Trek Slash! Don't get too hung up on having to spend money to hit these obstacles.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> This is the best move you can make. A little riding with an experienced rider will likely give you a whole new way of looking at things on a bike.
> 
> Shopping on the other hand is extremely unlikely to get you over, down, or through anything more than you're already getting. Some people wildly overestimate spending money as a method to ride better.


Double that ! ! Last winter i improved that way on fat and constantly we see the $ invested with no results or extremely little ones.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

OP, ignore the posts about upgrading things right now. The stuff in the pics and such can be ridden on a full rigid fat bike. Im not even that skilled (cant even manual for crap yet, barely wheelie, cant bunny hop to save my life, only jump small stuff XC style.) But what you describe I can fly through on full rigid fat bike with big 4.7 or 4.0 tires.

Watch all the skills videos you can. Practice each skill one at a time. Most important skill to learn is getting off the seat and shifting your body around.

Also probably need to drop your air pressures a little, do not run max pressure (99.9% of new riders do).

Momentum is your friend (dont have to be going really fast, just fast enough to carry momentum).

LOOK AHEAD DOWN THE TRAIL WHERE YOU WANT TO BE, NOT DOWN AT YOUR FRONT TIRE WHERE YOU ARE.

And finally, second most importantly (first is to relax and have fun), ride with experienced riders all you can. Watch how they move their bike and body over the obstacles.

Your bike right now isnt an issue, what Im seeing the bike can handle it, not at high speeds but is fine to learn on. Master riding those trails with that bike and when you buy a new bike youll be that much better on a better bike.

The bike doesnt make the rider. The bike is an extension of the rider. Pros and what not like to prove that point on a regular basis just for fun and to make the point of its the rider, not the bike.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## BikeMrown (May 26, 2017)

If you get some coaching, come back and share how you did learn to approach/tackle these. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

*I definitely realize that it's me and my lack of skill and just being a new rider...and not the bike...in terms of getting through/over/down/whatever these obstacles. I need to get out and work harder and just keep practicing this stuff and getting better!* :thumbsup:

I'm not sitting here believing that a more expensive bike will automatically make me ride like a rockstar or anything like that, but at this point I'm allowing myself to evaluate whether a fork upgrade via this Suntour upgrade program will be a good investment. As I understand it, it doesn't matter that my fork is an RST Gila, I can still get a Raidon fork for $200 shipped via the discount program used on a competitor product.

Here's my thought process. I'm a logical-minded guy. I'm an engineer by trade. I'm pragmatic. My goal isn't to upgrade every piece on this bike and try to turn this cheapie into a $3k bike. But, any dollars I do put into it, I want to:

1. Solve a problem or help with something I don't like about the bike
2. Get good value/use out of whatever I invest in

For example, the $45 Race Face pedals I bought were an AMAZING investment...what a difference in feel and confidence on the bike right off the bat. I made this investment to combat my feet slipping off the stock pedals when I experimented with my first drop that I talked about above. With these new pedals I can confidently tackle that over and over, and with the grip my ride experience is so much better.

Another example...for $18 I'm going to try a couple different stem lengths (I ordered 60 and 80 mm to compare against my 100mm stock stem) and see if I like that better. I feel like my hands are too heavy and it's hard to get the front of the bike up / manual / etc, *and along with really practicing my technique*, I'm hoping this will help with that. For $18 it's a worthwhile experiment.

Now the fork. I'm wondering if I should drop a couple hundred bucks and just upgrade to the Raidon. With this stock fork, when I charge through bumpy stuff it feels like I'm holding a fricken jackhammer. I actually believe that I could ride faster and harder through the junk if I had a better fork. Similarly to the pedals, I feel like it could dramatically improve my riding experience. Not my skills, but how enjoyable the bike is to ride. And, similarly to the pedals with their grip, it would probably allow me to tackle rougher terrain more safely at speed too. Everyone said "the Chesters will transform your bike" and they were right. What a difference. Honestly, is the fork in the same category?? Everything I read says yes.

Heck...being honest with myself...I'm already thinking about dropping $2k on a new bike a fricken month and a half after buying this one. Yikes. Not very pragmatic having not gotten even a full season of riding out of this one. If I do jump on the fork upgrade, my hope is that I'll like the bike more and will want to ride it for another full season before dropping more $ into a higher end bike. I mean if I spend $300 on this upgrade and I really enjoy it and notice a big difference which (like the pedals) I expect I will, and then I go and ride it for say 40-50 more rides this year and next while getting better and also learning more about what I really want/need in my next bike purchase...to me that's a worthwhile investment! A $300 investment over the course of say 40 more rides is only $7.50 per ride. At another say 2 years of use it's a cost of $150 per year. Not terrible. Does this logic make sense here?

Plus, the other cheap stuff on this bike like the drivetrain and brakes and stuff...those honestly don't bother me! Not yet anyway. The gears are a little clunky but they shift when I want them to shift...so what the heck. Same with the brakes. I've never had an issue stopping...so whatever. I probably can't ride fast enough to have an issue yet. I'm not going to start dropping money into upgrading things that I don't find a problem or annoying or limiting right now. As these things start to really bother or limit me, or break, it'll be time for a new bike.

And as an aside it's not even about the money really. I don't believe I have a crazy case of upgrade itis like I'm guessing tons of people you guys have seen come on here and wonder how to upgrade everything on their bike because they can't afford or don't want to take time to save for a higher end model. I'm fortunate enough that I could go buy a $5k bike tomorrow if I wanted to. But I'm not sure that's the right choice for me because tweaking this cheapie bike can be a good learning experience for the next one.

So go ahead guys...bash away on the newb wanting a new fork now. Or not. :madman: :skep:


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

BikeMrown said:


> If you get some coaching, come back and share how you did learn to approach/tackle these.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I will!

I PM'd Fairbanks and will hopefully be able to meet up with him and learn some things!


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

guitarguy said:


> Plus, the other cheap stuff on this bike like the drivetrain and brakes and stuff...those honestly don't bother me! Not yet anyway. The gears are a little clunky but they shift when I want them to shift...so what the heck. Same with the brakes. I've never had an issue stopping...so whatever. I probably can't ride fast enough to have an issue yet. I'm not going to start dropping money into upgrading things that I don't find a problem or annoying or limiting right now. As these things start to really bother or limit me, or break, it'll be time for a new bike.


Sometimes ignorance is bliss. If it works...it works. But once you get the taste of good parts...you'll sing a different tune. But yeah...ride whatcha got and be happy. Nothing wrong with that. It will only help you appreciate more the nicer parts or nicer bike in the future. I've been there so I speak from experience.

As far as the fork...if you think it will improve your riding...and it may very well...go for it. But remember, your frame will limit what you can put in there. Not many higher end forks still run a straight steerer. You might be stuck buying used older stuff or new old stock. I don't know for sure what is out there that will fit your frame. So maybe I'm wrong and there are some really nice new forks that will work.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Nubster said:


> Sometimes ignorance is bliss. If it works...it works. But once you get the taste of good parts...you'll sing a different tune. But yeah...ride whatcha got and be happy. Nothing wrong with that. It will only help you appreciate more the nicer parts or nicer bike in the future. I've been there so I speak from experience.
> 
> As far as the fork...if you think it will improve your riding...and it may very well...go for it. But remember, your frame will limit what you can put in there. Not many higher end forks still run a straight steerer. You might be stuck buying used older stuff or new old stock. I don't know for sure what is out there that will fit your frame. So maybe I'm wrong and there are some really nice new forks that will work.


Haha...now I can show Mrs. Guitarguy this and go bike shopping!! See...Nubster says the good parts are better!!!! 

This is the fork I'm looking at - $200 via the upgrade program. I'm mechanically inclined, but may still pay LBS to install depending on price.

https://www.srsuntour.com/products/raidon-xc-lo-r?variant=27529039299

Now on the ignorance is bliss thing...I'm ignorant on air forks too. Never ridden a bike with one, just like I'd never ridden one with grippy pedals like the Chesters that so many on here recommended to me. Is a newb like me going to notice the difference here between the RST Gila crappy spring and an air fork such as this? The interwebs have me believing the answer is yes.

In a nutshell, spending a few bucks on something like this will be for the purpose of not feeling like I'm holding a jackhammer when trouncing through rough stuff...solving something I don't like about my bike currently.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

The fork is not going to improve the riding. I've shredding around on some black trails on a broken rigid SID fork for months. Its all in the skills that have yet to be learned.

Riding with experienced riders willing to show you the rope will completely fast track you riding. Even more so if that person is good at evaluating what you are doing wrong. It can be very difficult for som to self evaluate. I ride with people who have no idea why they go down, catch logs and washout turns. Just yesterday, I was riding behind a friend who has regressed and points his to down at 12 and 6 every time he coasts.. this is a recipe for disaster if there are rocks and stumps in the singletrack. It explains why he is always catching stuff and going down behind me. I just haven't ridden behind him in so long because he is much slower and feels pressured if I do so.



guitarguy said:


> Ordering a couple stems to try out. They're cheapies from Amazon, but for less than 20 bucks I can try out 2 different lengths and see how they work/fit/etc.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M7XMINS/ref=pd_luc_rh_spmrai?psc=1
> 
> ...


You are going to need to completely adjust your setup after going with a short stem. Usually this can be compensated with a wider bar if your trees allow it.

Climbing under power is a balancing act. If you find the rear wheel starts to slip while standing, you can gently move weight rearward for the moment to regain traction. If the hill is steep and this causes you to have front wheel flop, you may need to hover and gently rest on the nose of the saddle as you climb.

Sitting on the back of the saddle and pedaling is a sure fire way to zig zag and lose control of the front wheel. This gets more exaggerated the steeper the hill is. On 20 percent grades, you will find yourself sitting on the front part of the saddle to hold traction on the rear tire and chest over the stem cap to hold the front down.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Sorry, My internet explorer deletes lettrs and doesn't work well with MTBR due to the format of the side ads.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

FJSnoozer said:


> The fork is not going to improve the riding. I've shredding around on some black trails on a broken rigid SID fork for months. Its all in the skills that have yet to be learned.


Not completely true. I had a shitty fork on my Specialized RockHopper 29er years ago. I'd ride within my skill level but I was constantly having problems in certain situations and especially in turns at speed and my front would washout due to flex and poor suspension. I upgraded to a much nicer and stiffer fork and those same spots that I would constantly wash out and crash...no more crashes. No more washouts. In fact I was able to ride them even faster. No additional skill gained. Simply from a part upgrade. So yeah...skills can and often do > parts or bike quality. But that's also not always true. Bad parts are bad parts. And bad parts can cause bad things to happen even if it's just preventing you from riding to the best of your ability.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

guitarguy said:


> Haha...now I can show Mrs. Guitarguy this and go bike shopping!! See...Nubster says the good parts are better!!!!
> 
> This is the fork I'm looking at - $200 via the upgrade program. I'm mechanically inclined, but may still pay LBS to install depending on price.
> 
> ...


Better quality suspension takes some time on setup to get it right. You'll have at least a few adjustments you'll want to figure out. Things like rebound (how fast it springs back to fully extended position), air pressure, and compression (what kinds of forces and how much are required to compress the fork - the most basic compression adjustment is a simple lockout, but nowadays a quite a few have many settings, a separate low speed compression adjustment, and so on). With your current cheapie fork feeling like a jackhammer, I'm not surprised. Most cheap forks lack even a rebound adjustment. This one adjustment can make a world of difference - I'll give you an example.

I just made a pretty big move, and the character of the trails available to me changed a lot. I had my suspension setup well for the trails in the old location, but in the new location, I found my fork felt like the jackhammer you described on the new trails. I increased the rebound damping (slowing down the rebound speed of the fork) and now everything feels buttery again.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

guitarguy said:


> Now on the ignorance is bliss thing...I'm ignorant on air forks too. Never ridden a bike with one, just like I'd never ridden one with grippy pedals like the Chesters that so many on here recommended to me. Is a newb like me going to notice the difference here between the RST Gila crappy spring and an air fork such as this? The interwebs have me believing the answer is yes.


I'm pretty out of tune with my bikes. It takes pretty large differences before I notice them. I'm not a 1mm of change makes a world of difference kinda guy. I'm glad I'm not too. But...when I upgraded from a really crap fork (see post above) to a pretty decent air fork...it was day and night. When I swapped from really lowend drivetrain parts to SRAM X9...it was definitely noticeable. When I went from BB7 mech brakes to Shimano XT hydro brakes...it was a whole new braking world. Now those are big changes that I noticed. Would I notice going from a lower end air fork to a higher end air fork? Not likely. SRAM GX to SRAM X1....I doubt it. SLX brakes to XT or XTR...wouldn't count on it. But the fork change you are proposing is a decently big jump so I'd have a really hard time believing that you would not notice the improvement.

To touch on what Harold said...if you go the new fork route...do make sure to get the shop to help you set it up correctly. And/or watch some videos or ask on here how to do it. It's not hard but it takes some effort and trial and error. Something I'm still working on myself having just returned to the world of suspension after being away for a few years. And even before I left...I didn't have much of a grasp. I really just rode and didn't think much about it. But even then...an untuned nice fork was better than that **** pogo stick they called a fork that came on my RockHopper. This time around I'm trying to learn and get things setup to best suit me and my riding.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Harold said:


> Better quality suspension takes some time on setup to get it right. You'll have at least a few adjustments you'll want to figure out. Things like rebound (how fast it springs back to fully extended position), air pressure, and compression (what kinds of forces and how much are required to compress the fork - the most basic compression adjustment is a simple lockout, but nowadays a quite a few have many settings, a separate low speed compression adjustment, and so on). With your current cheapie fork feeling like a jackhammer, I'm not surprised. *Most cheap forks lack even a rebound adjustment.* This one adjustment can make a world of difference - I'll give you an example.
> 
> I just made a pretty big move, and the character of the trails available to me changed a lot. I had my suspension setup well for the trails in the old location, but in the new location, I found my fork felt like the jackhammer you described on the new trails. I increased the rebound damping (slowing down the rebound speed of the fork) and now everything feels buttery again.


As does mine. No rebound. It has a switch for a lockout which seems to work OK, and a knob that adjust spring preload. I can hardly tell the difference in tuning anything with that preload. Basically it's all the way open (bouncy) or all the way closed (stiff). Most of the middle of the dial is nonsense.

Kind of like a cheap guitar tone pot...all or nothing.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

If you go with the Raidon install it yourself per the video I linked to. The mod for that fork is to replace the heavy grease in the lower air side with oil. That cuts the stiction that happens over time with the grease. That fork otherwise needs no maintenance because the damper is a sealed unit like a car shock. No open bath.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Its amazing the amount of discussion in this thread trying to fix a skill issue with a piece of So So upgraded equipment. 

A good rider will shred this stuff on anything with two wheels. If you must upgrade, a proper tire combo will have far more difference on your riding than a crappy Suntour air fork.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

guitarguy said:


> So go ahead guys...bash away on the newb wanting a new fork now. Or not. :madman: :skep:


Nah...if you want to upgrade stuff, go ahead and do it. No reason not to, particularly 'fit' parts, like seats, bar/stem/grips/pedals, etc. And tires that work well for your local conditions. That stuff delivers a lot of bang for the buck.

But in answer to your original question of whether you're trying to ride stuff beyond the limits of your current bike, based on the pics, etc, the answer is a resounding 'not even close'.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

You're nuts FJ. 
You sure don't know your cheap forks.
His fork has no rebound damping. It's just a spring on one side. It's a pogo stick over multiple roots/rocks like shown. All your effort goes to holding on to the bars. 
The Raidon has adjustable rebound damping and decent compression damping. There is no *tire* on his skinny rims that will overcome no rebound damping.
No skilled rider would take one of those fork to the trails.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

As said: pedal, bars, stem, seat is all comfort and fitting. Rarely not needed and not an "upgrade", its required because even on high end stuff, pedals (only ever give you cheap ones on any bike), grips, and seat usually suck.

Raidon fork isnt crappy (ignore elitest comments about that, I ride one and previous bike had a manitou marvel pro, $600 forks that are highly regarded and very nice). Actually in bang for buck their great. I bought my bike that came with one. It isnt a FOX or higher end Rockshox, and I planned to replace it early on. Bought bike based on frame color and other specs. That was 7 months ago lol. Raidon is still on it lol. Only now am I finding things that need improvement, mainly the damper. Because Im pushing a lot hard and faster than I ever have by far. Manitou marvel damper handled it perfectly, but couldnt say the same for the rest of the fork. Flex under hard braking and hard cornering. Fairness is was and XC fork. My Raidon is the 120mm boost 27.5+ 15mm thru axle.

For $200ish it would be a huge improvement. Easy to service. I use good grease and soak foam ring in my good fork oil. Had about 300 hard miles on the fork before service which i did as preventative more than required.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

FJSnoozer said:


> Its amazing the amount of discussion in this thread trying to fix a skill issue with a piece of So So upgraded equipment.
> 
> A good rider will shred this stuff on anything with two wheels. If you must upgrade, a proper tire combo will have far more difference on your riding than a crappy Suntour air fork.


I brought up the fork replacement and specifically noted, in bold font, that I realize upgrading stuff or buying a $5k bike isn't going to turn me into a pro rider overnight. I already know that a good rider could crush this stuff on a Walmart bike.

The fork upgrade is a branched-into side conversation. It has nothing to do with getting over this log pile. And I don't *have* to upgrade anything. I'm just looking to change something I don't like about my bike in hopes that I will get more life out of it rather than jumping out and buying another new bike right away.

If you're looking to be constructive, I'm genuinely interested in what makes this Raidon fork crappy.

Also what makes better wheels and tires the best way to upgrade? I'm not really having grip issues right now...probably because I'm not fast enough yet. Will better wheels or tires help smooth out the ride over rough terrain at speed?


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

FJSnoozer said:


> Its amazing the amount of discussion in this thread trying to fix a skill issue with a piece of So So upgraded equipment.
> 
> A good rider will shred this stuff on anything with two wheels. If you must upgrade, a proper tire combo will have far more difference on your riding than a crappy Suntour air fork.


If you don't like it...leave the conversation. You made your point. And no one is really listening to you so at this point you're just kinda wasting your time.

And true...I don't consider myself good but from the pics and description...I could ride that stuff on my rigid single speed. But I've been riding for 7 or 8 years so even though I don't think I'm good...I have enough experience to tackle things that a new rider wouldn't or would have problems with.

But that's not the whole point here. Sure...a fork upgrade alone won't help the OP clear these trail sections. There's a skill set that needs worked on too. No one is arguing against that. But a nicer fork will ride better and give more confidence to a new rider and that will go a long way to help him ride better even at his current skill level.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

guitarguy said:


> Also what makes better wheels and tires the best way to upgrade? I'm not really having grip issues right now...probably because I'm not fast enough yet. Will better wheels or tires help smooth out the ride over rough terrain at speed?


Tires that work for your terrain/style are probably the best 'upgrade' you can do.
You have only 2 small contact patches with the earth, at the best of times. What goes on in those spots makes a lot of difference.

I wouldn't worry about the wheels, unless yours are trashed.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Tires that work for your terrain/style are probably the best 'upgrade' you can do.
> You have only 2 small contact patches with the earth, at the best of times. What goes on in those spots makes a lot of difference.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about the wheels, unless yours are trashed.


It's hard to keep that tiny front patch of tire on the ground when your pogo stick fork is bouncing it in the air constantly. Or when the pitiful excuse for stanchions cause the front wheel to wash out because it flexes so much the front loses grip.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Upgrades to the bike are fine, but will not address the real issue. That is skills development. Sounds like all these areas need the rider to first focus on basic skills. Once speeds increase then you can start to tackle gear refinement.

If you have an experience rider willing to ride with you do that! It is worth 100x times more than and gear upgrade or internet advice.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Nubster said:


> It's hard to keep that tiny front patch of tire on the ground when your pogo stick fork is bouncing it in the air constantly. Or when the pitiful excuse for stanchions cause the front wheel to wash out because it flexes so much the front loses grip.


Cheap-ass rigid take-off fork from the LBS for $25 will solve those problems too.
Neither that nor a fancy $1100 fork will get the OP over that log pile though.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

guitarguy said:


> I brought up the fork replacement and specifically noted, in bold font, that I realize upgrading stuff or buying a $5k bike isn't going to turn me into a pro rider overnight. I already know that a good rider could crush this stuff on a Walmart bike.
> 
> The fork upgrade is a branched-into side conversation. It has nothing to do with getting over this log pile. And I don't *have* to upgrade anything. I'm just looking to change something I don't like about my bike in hopes that I will get more life out of it rather than jumping out and buying another new bike right away.
> 
> ...


Constructive:
Do not waste your money if you are considering anything in with a 2000 dollar budget in the next year. All you should do is maintain your bike and consider getting a good tire setup that matches your terrain. Hell yes, Tires make a big difference and in fact add suspension to your bike if you are going up in volume to say a 2.35. There is more to tires than just size, Tread, Compound and TPI (which affects suppleness) are very important. I would not look to a national forum for what works for your area, But from the looks of your trail, a lot will work there. You can go overkill at first and get something that you know will grip. There is more to Tire than lateral grip. The way it takes and handles all of those bumps, roots and logs is unique to the tire you choose. If you are slow, throw a Maxxis DHF, Nobby nick evo snakeskin, Hans Dampf, up front and enjoy(Avoid all ardents
). Rear tire is completely terrain dependent and personal preference. Do you want max grip...do you want controlled slide... I love Ikon 2.35s and keep going back no matter what else I try. Racing Ralph, Ground Control 2.3 , xr2/3 2.35 etc

No one said upgrading wheels, But upgrading wheels down the road is huge because of the drop in weight over stock wheels of usually 1- 2 pounds depending upon materials and spec. Not to mention the POE or points engagement you get form better hubs.

I reread your comments about buying a 2K hardtail down the road. Please know that you can pick up 2-3 year old nice Full suspension bikes with a great fork for 900-1500 all day. You can save that budget for service, tools and upgrades. My bike was 1400 for a 2 year old carbon race bike with upgraded afternmarket wheels. The bike was 5K MSRP. This is not unusual by any means. If you want a hardtail, that is fine as well. I have built up two carbon hardtails around 22 pounds for under that pricepoint as well.

if you are dying to spend 200 on a fork, you can pick up something much better with less flex. E.g. We just sold a Lighlty used Reba RL for that price. You could resell the fork for the same price used before selling your entry level bike. Good luck selling any used Suntour fork for any type of money. You would basicly dumping 200 into the bike. It depends on whether or not that is a lot of money to you.

A suntour XCT is not going to cause you to wash out. That's just ridiculous. Tire pressure, varying degrees of terrain dryness/loosness, a lack of applied pressure on the sideknobs etc. About the last thing that is CAUSING a washout is your fork unless you are loading up and with out of control rebound. I know you are not claiming this, but Numbster is. Its highly ironic that he lists a rigid bike in his stable and is climing he cant control a little old XCT fork. I shred on XCTs if its the only thing available and I am riding a rental bike from a hotel. You just do more upper body work to control the front end, that is all.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

You're just a superstar. We get it. You can shred on a Huffy. Because you are Jesus on a bike. I bow to you and your superior riding skills.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

FJSnoozer said:


> Constructive:
> Do not waste your money if you are considering anything in with a 2000 dollar budget in the next year. All you should do is maintain your bike and consider getting a good tire setup that matches your terrain. Hell yes, Tires make a big difference and in fact add suspension to your bike if you are going up in volume to say a 2.35....


Agree overall. However I really like HT 29ers. I also have a FS bike, but like HT more for most of what I ride. My FS is 29lbs and was 1600 used. My HT is carbon 23lbs and 1200 used. Bottom line is with a $2000 budget you can get a really nice used bike. New is harder, but you can still get a very capable bike at 2k, but without as many "nice to haves".

For now ride what you have.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

without reading all the good advice....

Me and buddy have been reading for in excess of 15 years...

We continue to try to clean more and more sections...

The best advice is to try one way....then try another way....til you get it.

We just got a relatively easy rooty climb that had been eluding us....

We finally tried it the other way it looked way harder but bingo up to the top easy...

Don't be afraid to take multiple tries at one obstacle in any ride....speeds up success.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is dialing in your attack position. I'm a fan of Lee McCormack's stuff on riding position. I would start with that then expand to working on specific types of obstacles. Most people, especially new riders, are too tense and tend to put more pressure on the bars.


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## 2zmtnz (Apr 20, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Tires that work for your terrain/style are probably the best 'upgrade' you can do.
> You have only 2 small contact patches with the earth, at the best of times. What goes on in those spots makes a lot of difference.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about the wheels, unless yours are trashed.


^ this new tires are a great idea, seeing what you have in the pictures reminds me a lot of my gf's first bike's tires, and those were not good tires for dirt trails! a new set of rubber will go a long way to increasing grip and confidence.

the other connection points are also a great place look into changing. seeing your grips I would definitely replace those with some round lock-on grips. (I have had bad luck with slide on grips)

#1 it seams like you have the right ideas in your head on how to tackle this you just have to do them (easy to say not so easy to do) personally I have found unweighting the bike, staying relaxed and keeping speed into these sections usually works to carry you through the rough stuff.

#2 without seeing a picture from below and not knowing if you are going left of straight I can't give to much this is what you should do but i do see 2 distinct line choices. the inner line and the outer line. the outer line seams like it would be the smoothest option (root is not as exposed) but you may lose traction over the root when turning (better tires might help). the line I see and think is the best line is far to the left of the root almost scraping your handle bars on the tree on the left side of the trail, this looks like it would set you up way better (less turning of your wheels) than the outside line but usually this line can be a little more bumpy (use the same technique of unweighting the bike)

#3 things like this I also had problems with when I started. The way started to get over these easy was using the manual technique (don't have to actually get the front wheel off the ground just have most of your weight further back) and carrying speed (there seams to be a common skill here)

#4 dropping onto a down slope is actually exactly like doing a drop to flat. keep your weight back (keeping a good attack position) and just give it a try. and yes if you are going slower you will need to do a more exaggerated manual to keep from nose diving.

I am not even going to touch the fork debate going on. if it feels unsafe then yes upgrade to something better, other wise just go and ride.

as for riding without a dropper post, you don't need one, but it does make getting your weight back easier. if you are riding prolonged downhills then just slam the seat down when you get to the top and raise it back up when you have to.

stems are cheap and fairly easy to swap out so yeah give a shorter stem a try, you can also slide your seat back to keep the distance from your seat to handle bars similar to what you have now.

all that said the best one piece of advice I can give you is to get out ride and have fun! and also remember falling is part of the game when challenging yourself. stay safe out there.


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## MarshallMTB (Apr 26, 2017)

Nubster said:


> You're just a superstar. We get it. You can shred on a Huffy. Because you are Jesus on a bike. I bow to you and your superior riding skills.


Haha! That made me chuckle. Not that I can say much as I'm a noob who also just bought the Marlin 5, and I'm in the same predicament as OP.


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## White7 (Feb 9, 2015)

didn't read all the previous post but here's how Id hit em without typing a novel

#1) Speed,weight back and lift the front just enough to clear my approach and momentum through 
#2) No brakes,weight back,let her roll
#3) see #1 ,,or ,,,speed, hit the front set of logs ,jump and clear the big one,land on the other side like a majestic eagle 
#4) landing a downward slope is way smoother than to flat,Just enough speed to catch your landing spot,weight back to start,transfer slightly forward to land,rear will touch slightly before front

and if you do any of these and crash,,,,just try it again
You can trust me,,,I'm a plumber

EDIT: ok read through a couple post about a fork,,IMO a nice fork is one of the best upgrades you can do


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Well guys...I decided to go ahead and upgrade to the Raidon XC LO R air fork. I know it's not a Reba, but I couldn't find any Reba fork for sale anywhere near $200. Plus I'm still a rook so I'm kind of uncomfortable buying used because I'm not super confident in judging what I'm getting.

I'm jumping on it because I feel like it's a reasonable price to pay and assuming it turns out to be a very noticeable upgrade, it should make my bike a lot more fun to ride and therefore I'll get a lot more use out of it for another year or 2 as opposed to buying another new bike right away. Again...being pragmatic...I don't like the jackhammer feeling in the rough stuff and this should alleviate that. It should drop the front end weight by a pound or so...that certainly won't hurt my practice on getting the front end up. And if I'm piling on...the fork I have now is squeaky as hell. Not sure if that's normal or not for all forks? 

LBS charges $35 for the install. I'm confident in my ability to install myself, but I don't have a pipe cutter, grinder, or some of the other tools used in that video and plus $35 to save an hour or 2 of my time isn't bad lol. Plus stopping in will give me a chance to have a look at some new grips and tires. 

Grips: I will hopefully be able to try some out, but any recommendations? I don't like the chunky ends like the ones in my pic in the OP so looking for something more round in shape. And plus I can always move these to my next bike. 

Tires: How do I go about selecting the right ones for my terrain? Any other MI or Midwest riders care to chime in on a good tire choice? I'm thinking of just having LBS do these and the fork install at the same time.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Grips = ESI Chunky or Extra Chunky.

https://www.amazon.com/ESI-Extra-Ch...d=1504801093&sr=8-2&keywords=esi+chunky+grips


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

FJSnoozer said:


> Constructive:
> Do not waste your money if you are considering anything in with a 2000 dollar budget in the next year. All you should do is maintain your bike and consider getting a good tire setup that matches your terrain. Hell yes, Tires make a big difference and in fact add suspension to your bike if you are going up in volume to say a 2.35. There is more to tires than just size, Tread, Compound and TPI (which affects suppleness) are very important. I would not look to a national forum for what works for your area, But from the looks of your trail, a lot will work there. You can go overkill at first and get something that you know will grip. There is more to Tire than lateral grip. The way it takes and handles all of those bumps, roots and logs is unique to the tire you choose. If you are slow, throw a Maxxis DHF, Nobby nick evo snakeskin, Hans Dampf, up front and enjoy(Avoid all ardents
> ). Rear tire is completely terrain dependent and personal preference. Do you want max grip...do you want controlled slide... I love Ikon 2.35s and keep going back no matter what else I try. Racing Ralph, Ground Control 2.3 , xr2/3 2.35 etc
> 
> ...


Interesting reply and I love the advice not to throw $2000 into a new bike to 'solve' a problem. Also I think you are the first person I've read on here that likes Suntour XCT forks, most people call them pogo sticks. I have one but I have no idea how they compare because I've never had anything better (yet). As far as tires contributing to suspension you might find this interesting: when I went from a 2.1 tire to a 2.5 tire on a 27.5" I didn't notice much suspension change, in fact the ride was a bit harsher, but when I went from 1.95 to 2.40 on a 26" the suspension change was dramatic, like the 80mm fork didn't exist anymore, the suspension in the front felt 80%+ tire. I guess you need to experiment with the right tire width and psi to get it dialed in for what the trail type is.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I personally love lock-on grips; one of my favorite MTB improvements of all time. 

Dig around your regional forum for tire leads.
Over here in New England, lots of love for Maxxix DHF/DHRs. I also like their High Roller IIs.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

richj8990 said:


> Interesting reply and I love the advice not to throw $2000 into a new bike to 'solve' a problem. Also I think you are the first person I've read on here that likes Suntour XCT forks, most people call them pogo sticks. I have one but I have no idea how they compare because I've never had anything better (yet). As far as tires contributing to suspension you might find this interesting: when I went from a 2.1 tire to a 2.5 tire on a 27.5" I didn't notice much suspension change, in fact the ride was a bit harsher, but when I went from 1.95 to 2.40 on a 26" the suspension change was dramatic, like the 80mm fork didn't exist anymore, the suspension in the front felt 80%+ tire. I guess you need to experiment with the right tire width and psi to get it dialed in for what the trail type is.


No one likes a Suntour XCT. But it isn't keeping someone from riding over logs or off root drops.

If you didn't notice a change going from 2.1-2.5 then you were running an entirely wrong PSI. When you changed to the 2.5 did you drop pressure significantly or run roughly the same. It sounds like you agree with the importance of this. For relative size, you can lower psi the larger the tire volume gets. This high volume smooths out the ride and takes out momentum killing bumps which are transferred into the hands via the grips and saddle via the seatstay/seatpost.

on a 2.5, I could run low 20s psi tubeless, on 2.2 I have to run 25.5-26. On a 2.1 I will need to be close to 27-28 psi. All of this is due to preventing rim strikes. These are rear tire PSIs for my 190 pound frame. Fronts are lower.

TPI has a lot to do with how supple he tire will feel as well. A 60 TPI Minion (really 2.3) will not feel like a 120 TPI 2.35 Ikon.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

So a dumb follow up question on tires...

How does one choose the right width? My bike has a 2.0 on the back and a 2.2 on the front. They are Bontrager XR2 - I'm sure that means crap. 

So, should I go for a 2.2 on both the front and back? Or how do I know how wide of tires will work? I'm gathering that wider is a little better for lower pressure and grip?

FWIW I'm 6'3" 190-195 lbs.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Heavy feeling front end,,,
the more info you give the better the answers will be.
Are your legs way longer than average for your height?
Are your handlebars 1, 2 or 3 inches lower than the top of your seat?
Any knee pain?
Personally i start from a proper seat position than adjust the front part of the equation and a fixed seat is fine for most people you will learn to float above your bike and let it roll/dance under you over time.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

33red said:


> Heavy feeling front end,,,
> the more info you give the better the answers will be.
> Are your legs way longer than average for your height?
> Are your handlebars 1, 2 or 3 inches lower than the top of your seat?
> ...


I would say my legs are not way longer than average for my height. I'm 6'3" and wear a 32" inseam typically (for jeans).

I would have to measure on my handlebars height compared to the seat.

No knee pain whatsoever.

I just went though with a plumb bob and adjusted/confirmed my seat position last night. From here I'm going to try the shorter stems and see how they feel.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

The answer is always GET A NEW BIKE! 
end of thread.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

guitarguy said:


> So a dumb follow up question on tires...
> 
> How does one choose the right width? My bike has a 2.0 on the back and a 2.2 on the front. They are Bontrager XR2 - I'm sure that means crap.
> 
> ...


Bigger the better IMO. 
2.3-2.4" should likely fit, but you'd have to verify of course.
I run same tires front and rear; just simpler.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

guitarguy said:


> So a dumb follow up question on tires...
> 
> How does one choose the right width? My bike has a 2.0 on the back and a 2.2 on the front. They are Bontrager XR2 - I'm sure that means crap.
> 
> ...


Bontrager XR2 are perfectly good tires. I bet you have the lower end version of these, but that only impacts weight, durablity and feel. Overall grip is the same due to the same tread pattern on the high dollar Team Issue version. 
2.0 on the back is a bit narrow these days. I run 2.35 front (Maxxis Ikon) and 2.2 (Bontrager XR3, team issue) rear. I feel the XR3 is more durable than the XR2, but that is really just a guess since I have never tested the XR2. What you could do to save $$ is to get an XR3 2.35 for the front and move the XR2 to the back. That would be strong tire setup. Even so don't expect miracles, but when I was on 26" wheels moving from 2.1 tires to 2.35 tires was major improvement in dealing with constant rocks we have in Arizona. Those high volume tires allowed for lower tire pressures even with tubes (tubeless means still lower) and a softer ride over the rocks and more control.

Tires are one of the few things that really help a bike ride well and are place to spend money. Few parts have the same noticeable impact as tires. That said tires still cannot make up for skill issues. The issue you noted are NOT going to be solved by tires. The issues are more basic.


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## sinfony78 (Dec 2, 2012)

to answer your question on tires, it depends on what kind of trail you're riding and on your physical characteristics. if it's smooth, packed dirt with little in the way (rocks, roots, etc.), which is one kind of trail we have in houston, then you'll be fine with smaller tires if you're also not super heavy. smaller tires will also mean faster rolling

but from your pictures, looks like u have roots and log rolls, so i'd go with a wider tire which will carry more air. to give some context, i'm 150 lb. and we have rooty trails. i have 2.25" F and R, if i hit some areas fast, i'll hit my rim on the back tire. however, to make things even confusing, this was due to my rim width. i took these tires to a wider 25mm internal rim width, and i rim strike very, very rarely

so tire choice is really dependent on several things like your weight, your rim, your terrain, and what u want to accomplish (ride faster, corner better)


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

guitarguy said:


> I would say my legs are not way longer than average for my height. I'm 6'3" and wear a 32" inseam typically (for jeans).
> 
> I would have to measure on my handlebars height compared to the seat.
> 
> ...


Yup the stem should do it with maybe the help of the other fork. For 36 in inseam i would have suggested a raiser bar but a somewhat shorter stem i use on all my bikes and no problem at all, enjoy your new passtime and thank god for an understanding life partner


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

33red said:


> Yup the stem should do it with maybe the help of the other fork. For 36 in inseam i would have suggested a raiser bar but a somewhat shorter stem i use on all my bikes and no problem at all,


Cool I'm looking forward to trying the shorter stems. I have 100mm on there now and I ordered a 60 and an 80 to try out.

I'm hoping the handling is still good at one of those lengths because I really don't feel I need, or want, wider bars. Some of the trees on my local trails are a tight squeeze already!

The other fork should be the same geometry (I think?) but hopefully it helps my hands in the rough stuff.



33red said:


> enjoy your new passtime and thank god for an understanding life partner


Amen to that brotha! Thankfully my other main time-sucking activity (music) puts rather substantial funds *into* the bank account instead of the other way around. Makes it easier to tell the always understanding Mrs. Guitarguy I'm buying this or that when taking up a hobby like this one that works in exactly the opposite direction!


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## Gumby_rider (Apr 18, 2017)

Raidon is a very capable fork. It will serve you well for at least a number of years while honing your skills.



guitarguy said:


> Well guys...I decided to go ahead and upgrade to the Raidon XC LO R air fork. I know it's not a Reba, but I couldn't find any Reba fork for sale anywhere near $200. Plus I'm still a rook so I'm kind of uncomfortable buying used because I'm not super confident in judging what I'm getting.
> 
> I'm jumping on it because I feel like it's a reasonable price to pay and assuming it turns out to be a very noticeable upgrade, it should make my bike a lot more fun to ride and therefore I'll get a lot more use out of it for another year or 2 as opposed to buying another new bike right away. Again...being pragmatic...I don't like the jackhammer feeling in the rough stuff and this should alleviate that. It should drop the front end weight by a pound or so...that certainly won't hurt my practice on getting the front end up. And if I'm piling on...the fork I have now is squeaky as hell. Not sure if that's normal or not for all forks?
> 
> ...


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

JoePAz said:


> Bontrager XR2 are perfectly good tires. I bet you have the lower end version of these, but that only impacts weight, durablity and feel. Overall grip is the same due to the same tread pattern on the high dollar Team Issue version.
> 2.0 on the back is a bit narrow these days. I run 2.35 front (Maxxis Ikon) and 2.2 (Bontrager XR3, team issue) rear. I feel the XR3 is more durable than the XR2, but that is really just a guess since I have never tested the XR2. What you could do to save $$ is to get an XR3 2.35 for the front and move the XR2 to the back. That would be strong tire setup. Even so don't expect miracles, but when I was on 26" wheels moving from 2.1 tires to 2.35 tires was major improvement in dealing with constant rocks we have in Arizona. Those high volume tires allowed for lower tire pressures even with tubes (tubeless means still lower) and a softer ride over the rocks and more control.
> 
> Tires are one of the few things that really help a bike ride well and are place to spend money. Few parts have the same noticeable impact as tires. That said tires still cannot make up for skill issues. The issue you noted are NOT going to be solved by tires. The issues are more basic.


This is great advice^^

Check and see if your wheel or wheels can b set up tubeless by the shop. the big XR3 or even XR4 would be nice up front. Also, worth noting, I find my 2.2 XR2 team issue is wearing extremely fast. But you should have a lower end version of the tire since your bike is not crazy expensive. It most likely has a harder and better earing rubber compound.

Guitarguy,

Enjoy the fork. It will be a Vast improvement over what you have and that 35 bucks is worth the hassle, there is even more to it than having the tools since there is grease and it can be a total mess on the kitchen counter 

Grips are so personal, its hard to make a recommendation. Thin grips are actually better for hand fatigue if you canget the appropriate amount of padding. I really like clamp on grips that use a single clamp and have rubber ends. Its better for leaning against things and not scratching and marking walls and cars, etc.

I love my ODI Elite motion grips and they are very light. They are extremely stickey.
ODI GRIPS - Grips and Handlebars - MTB

I also run Shorex streamlined/burly silicon grips on race bikes since they are far more durable and comfortable than ESI and ESI chunky's. Touch an ESI on a tree and it will peak like sunburn. Shorex can take several huge hits before ever splitting. They also don't absorb dirt the way ESI do if you go with a color.

Bicycle Grips â€" Shorex Grips


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

So here's a question, the Raidon fork isn't the "G2" geometry with the 51mm offset. Suntour's site doesn't list the offset of the Raidon, but from a google it looks like probably 46mm. 

1. Is this going to be a problem? 
2. It's the same 100mm travel, but will it void the frame warranty??
3. I read that it will slightly slow down the steering...since I'm planning on moving to a shorter stem with the same bars...maybe those 2 will negate each other?

I didn't pull the trigger on the fork yet...so just researching before I do!


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Literally nothing to worry about. G2 offset doesnt make a real difference on more basic bike geometry. Youll never notice the difference.

And no it has no effect on warranty. Only thing that will is going more than 20mm longer travel on the fork.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

FJSnoozer said:


> Touch an ESI on a tree and it will peak like sunburn. Shorex can take several huge hits before ever splitting. They also don't absorb dirt the way ESI do if you go with a color.


I clip trees way more often than I care to admit but my ESI Chunky grips are in great shape still. Can't comment on the dirt since I only have black ones. I am getting ready to throw some blue ones on my new bike so I'll find out. But as far as durability I've not had any issues and the grip and cushion is fantastic.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Nubster said:


> I clip trees way more often than I care to admit but my ESI Chunky grips are in great shape still. Can't comment on the dirt since I only have black ones. I am getting ready to throw some blue ones on my new bike so I'll find out. But as far as durability I've not had any issues and the grip and cushion is fantastic.


You should really give the shorex a try. You will not be disappointed. Especially if you go colored. I ran ESI forever until I won some shorex in a raffle. My blue ESI picked up an enormous amount of grease and things off my gloves over time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

I just checked them out. They do look nice. I'll give them a go next time I need grips or if the ESI blues get too dirty. Which I kinda had a feeling they would when I ordered them...but I just couldn't help myself.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Nubster said:


> I just checked them out. They do look nice. I'll give them a go next time I need grips or if the ESI blues get too dirty. Which I kinda had a feeling they would when I ordered them...but I just couldn't help myself.


I wanted to try lock ons...so I ordered a set of ODI Rogues. I read they're good for bigger hands...for $20 I'll give them a try.

I was reading on lock on vs slide on and some said lock on doesn't isolate vibration well...but the ease of removal and install had me wanting to at least give them a shot!


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

RAKC Ind said:


> Literally nothing to worry about. G2 offset doesnt make a real difference on more basic bike geometry. Youll never notice the difference.
> 
> And no it has no effect on warranty. Only thing that will is going more than 20mm longer travel on the fork.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Good to know!!

The Raidon has adjustments for 80-100-120mm of travel. Will I want to stick with 100 or is there a benefit to trying the 120mm setting?

Didn't actually know these were adjustable haha.

I'm gonna place my Raidon order today!


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

guitarguy said:


> I wanted to try lock ons...so I ordered a set of ODI Rogues. I read they're good for bigger hands...for $20 I'll give them a try.
> 
> I was reading on lock on vs slide on and some said lock on doesn't isolate vibration well...but the ease of removal and install had me wanting to at least give them a shot!


Yeah...grips are a personal thing just like saddles are. What works for one might not work for another. I have a couple pairs of lock-ons. My Release has them on the bike now actually and they aren't too bad really. My hands are pretty prone to going numb and the lock-ons on this bike didn't seem to cause any issues. I think for me the extra cushion and dampening of the silicon grips works a little better. Same reason I double wrap the bars on my road bikes. I like the thicker grip and the extra padding is nice. But I don't like padded gloves. They tend to push in on the palm of my hands and causes pain and numbness. So I always wear unpadded gloves. I've also tried the Ergon grips with the palm shelf thing. Again...ok. But not really my cup of tea but some folks swear by them. It's really nice though when you finally find what works for you.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

guitarguy said:


> Good to know!!
> 
> The Raidon has adjustments for 80-100-120mm of travel. Will I want to stick with 100 or is there a benefit to trying the 120mm setting?
> 
> ...


A lot will depend on how the frame was designed. If it's designed around a certain travel fork...you won't want to stray too far from that as it can negatively affect the handling of the bike. Example...my Kona Big Unit is designed for a 100mm travel fork. Kona was very insistent on this as well. And yeah...the fork I have on their now...the Bontrager Bowie...I think is a 120mm corrected fork, might even be 140mm. It definitely is way less than ideal for the frame and the handling isn't very good and in fact I'm trading it soon for a Fox 32 suspension fork that I plan to change to the 100mm travel that Kona wants.

If your new fork is easy to adjust...I'd say try it and see how it works for you. Sometimes moving outside the recommendations ends up working great. Just make sure there's not potential for damage to the frame or fork by going too far away from the design. I know that some folks took the DiamondBack Catch which is a 130mm travel bike up front and changed the fork to 150mm and they said it's great. So you never know until you try. Bad thing about my Pike though...it costs about $50 to change the travel since I have to replace parts internally to do so. Because of that...I'm just leaving it where it's at.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Nubster said:


> Yeah...grips are a personal thing just like saddles are. What works for one might not work for another. I have a couple pairs of lock-ons. My Release has them on the bike now actually and they aren't too bad really. My hands are pretty prone to going numb and the lock-ons on this bike didn't seem to cause any issues. I think for me the extra cushion and dampening of the silicon grips works a little better. Same reason I double wrap the bars on my road bikes. I like the thicker grip and the extra padding is nice. But I don't like padded gloves. They tend to push in on the palm of my hands and causes pain and numbness. So I always wear unpadded gloves. I've also tried the Ergon grips with the palm shelf thing. Again...ok. But not really my cup of tea but some folks swear by them. It's really nice though when you finally find what works for you.


For sure...I'm excited to try them!

I'll have my stems and grips here today/tomorrow and plan to assemble and try things out around the neighborhood on Sat.

Then I'm going to session some of the above crap on Sunday!


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Good luck. You'll get it I'm sure. Too bad this wasn't posted back in July. I was up your way for a few days in the St. Clair area. I was looking for some places to ride but didn't get much help with local-ish trail locations so I left my bike at home here in WV.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Nubster said:


> Good luck. You'll get it I'm sure. Too bad this wasn't posted back in July. I was up your way for a few days in the St. Clair area. I was looking for some places to ride but didn't get much help with local-ish trail locations so I left my bike at home here in WV.


Thanks man!

I use that MTB Project app...it's pretty cool. There are several trails within 30-45 mins of home here in SE MI...I had absolutely no idea they even existed before I got the app and started looking into it! I was very happy to find that there were so many places to go ride that weren't an hour + away.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

FJSnoozer said:


> No one likes a Suntour XCT. But it isn't keeping someone from riding over logs or off root drops.
> 
> If you didn't notice a change going from 2.1-2.5 then you were running an entirely wrong PSI. When you changed to the 2.5 did you drop pressure significantly or run roughly the same. It sounds like you agree with the importance of this. For relative size, you can lower psi the larger the tire volume gets. This high volume smooths out the ride and takes out momentum killing bumps which are transferred into the hands via the grips and saddle via the seatstay/seatpost.
> 
> ...


Well first off I am one of those 'idiots' that have tubes in my tires, and the tire starts getting really flubby and wants to wander around the trail under 35 psi. For other beginners out there reading this, there is a huge difference if you are using tubes or not for PSI!!! In other words DO NOT lower the PSI to 20 if you have a tube in the tire. Back to the subject: The tire wander or bounce problems are on a rocky downhill trail not a normal hardpacked dirt trail. It's the downhill rocky trails I'm noticing where too much or too little PSI starts having a noticeable negative effect.

Also, I've noticed that while less PSI is great on an actual trail, I feel bogged down on a harder surface, like the bike is taking forever to get to/from the actual dirt trails from the street or gravelled road. You know the feeling when your tire is slowly going flat, and you are hoping you can make it back to the trailhead, but it just gets slower and slower and you have to stop. That's the feeling, without having to stop because the tire is not really flat. If I pump up the tubes to 35-40 PSI l lose a bit of performance on the trail but getting to/from there is noticeably faster. And this is certainly not to everyone's taste but I'll trade a bit of performance for a faster ride and no pinch flats. My impression is that tubeless is 20-30 psi for wider tires, and tubes may need about 10 more psi on the same width of tire, so 30-40 psi for tubes.

As for what size tire to put on the back, that's a hard question to answer. Larger doesn't always mean better. I would be conservative and start with a small 0.1-0.2 inch increment (for example, 1.95 to 2.10, 2.10 to 2.20, 2.20 to 2.35, etc.) until you get what you want out of the rear tire (traction, etc), and/or until the rear tire starts encroaching on the chain/front derailleur. I just went from 2.10 to 2.35 in the back and OMG is the tire really close to the front derailleur now, I'll take a picture later. It's like 3 mm from the derailleur in the smallest left chainring. That's why you don't go huge in the back lol.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> For other beginners out there reading this


For any beginners out there reading this, don't put any stock in the recommendations made in the above post besides the part about running higher pressure for pavement riding.

I've been running tubes way below 30 psi in rocky N.E. terrain for decades on 26" wheels w/ ~2.35" tires. I'm running tubes in the low teens on my 3" 'plus' tires with wide rims. They're fine.

Running 40 psi on trails sucks; only do so if you constantly pinch-flat and haven't yet developed the smoothness in your riding style to avoid doing so. Once you do get better skills, drop your pressure ASAP. Any experienced rider will make the same recommendation.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Stony Creek has Rollercoaster beginning at the top of Mt Sheldon. My favorite. You have to ride pretty deep into the park woods to access it. It's directional. Maybe after you get the Raidon on.
For tires Nobby Nics or the XR2 2.35 Team tires are great. Available after September 18th. A shop would have to request them from the California warehouse.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> For any beginners out there reading this, don't put any stock in the recommendations made in the above post besides the part about running higher pressure for pavement riding.
> 
> I've been running tubes way below 30 psi in rocky N.E. terrain for decades on 26" wheels w/ ~2.35" tires. I'm running tubes in the low teens on my 3" 'plus' tires with wide rims. They're fine.
> 
> Running 40 psi on trails sucks; only do so if you constantly pinch-flat and haven't yet developed the smoothness in your riding style to avoid doing so. Once you do get better skills, drop your pressure ASAP. Any experienced rider will make the same recommendation.


Amen to that.



tylercall88 said:


> ...Additionally, something that I do for fun on some steeps (which may help with feature #2) is lock up the back wheel and just slide down, while using the front brake to control speed. It only works on grades that are too steep for the rear brake to actually work and comes in handy when its steeps that are filled with tight switchbacks because you can just make the rear wheel fishtail around everything. Be careful with that front brake though, because you will easily send yourself OTB on a descent. Not sure this would help with feature #2, since it's relatively straight, but it might. And let me stress, THIS IS SOMETHING I DO FOR FUN, haha. Its just for goofing around, but it does come in handy on runs where I'm scouting the terrain.


Ignore this terrible advice. It tears up the trails people work hard to build, maintain and often fight for access for us mountain bikers. When you start building your own trails, feel free to trash 'em.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Actually this is a great thread! I picked up a few things technique wise I should try more often. (I've been wanting to dive into this thread, damn work! :madman: ) 

OP, nice move on the fork upgrade, I rode a XTC for a while and its total crap, your confidence level will go from 2-10.

For your next bike, whenever that maybe, take a look at the Santa Cruz Chameleon $1600.00.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> For any beginners out there reading this, don't put any stock in the recommendations made in the above post besides the part about running higher pressure for pavement riding.
> 
> I've been running tubes way below 30 psi in rocky N.E. terrain for decades on 26" wheels w/ ~2.35" tires. I'm running tubes in the low teens on my 3" 'plus' tires with wide rims. They're fine.
> 
> Running 40 psi on trails sucks; only do so if you constantly pinch-flat and haven't yet developed the smoothness in your riding style to avoid doing so. Once you do get better skills, drop your pressure ASAP. Any experienced rider will make the same recommendation.


I have to agree. One of the best things I did when riding my old 26er HT on tubes was to go from 35-40lbs to 25psi and 33psi. Large volume tires run as low a pressure as possible are the best. With tubes you won't really get a soft "self steering" feeling on dirt. Th reason is to get that low you will see pinch flats long before you get there. Once I was riding and had my rear tire going down and for a while I really loved the grip and feel of 25psi in the rear. Right till I pinch flatted 2 miles later. Tubeless are good for 2 reason. 1) minor thorns don't cause flats any longer 2) no tubes means no pinch flats and that means lower pressures.

Now with tubless there still is a lower limit on pressure. That is when you bang a rim or start to get wandering feeling on dirt. For me I have had good sucess at 18-20 psi in front on 2.35 tires. 29er's have more volume so you can run a bit lower than 26, but that is about right. At 15 psi on 29x2.35 the front tire can self steer a bit. In the rear I run 28 psi in 2.2 29er tires. Lower means more rim strikes. I did run a small 2.1 rear tire once at 28 psi and it was just too low. In some rocky bits I banged the rim a couple times. No flats, but not idea either. So tire volume is important.

Now these pressure work for me and my 165lbs. If you weigh more you may need different pressures.

Now I will admit that 20psi on the pavement is not ideal, but these are mountain bikes and not road bikes. So I don't care if it not perfect for pavement. I just care about the dirt.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Couple of general questions...

1. I don't know much about going tubeless. I will google/YouTube it for sure to learn more, but generally this isn't doable on cheaper wheels like I'm sure I have, right? They don't say "tubeless ready" or whatever like more expensive bikes spec. 

2. I've been running about 35 psi on my tires (Bot X2's as noted above). I would like to go lower for sure, but I'm worried about flats. Embarrassingly, I don't even know how to change a tire yet and therefore don't bring my multitool, levers or spare tube (all of which I bought already) when I ride. I am planning on attending a free roadside maintenance class at LBS on 9/23! So I will def learn. In the meantime, I'm 190-195 lbs. Can I safely go lower? The obstacles I noted above and some roots and rock gardens are about as wild as I'm riding right now. 

But in the end...it would nice to go tubeless to save weight and not have to worry about all of this as much! Just don't know if my cheap wheels can handle it or if an upgrade is needed there too.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

1. Tubeless is a selling point so if they were...it's very likely they'd be advertised as such. 

2. I'd definitely use caution and probably wouldn't go any lower until you at least can change a tube just in case. It's really easy though. I'd recommend watching a couple youtube videos with your front wheel and practice. It really only takes once or twice to get the hang out of it. You might be slow but at least you'll know how at that point.


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## HuffyMan (Oct 19, 2005)

My simple couple o cents:
1. look where you want to go
2. momentum/speed is key
3. brake before obstacles/turns not on them

(and sure as **** don't skid your brakes on trails)


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

cut your weak leg it is heavy,
ok really 225 pounds for you and the bike 2 pounds are not your problem
avoid turning and braking at the same time
there are many steps, improve YOU, that bike will make lots
we need to be confident and that comes with practice and knowing the trails


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

guitarguy said:


> Couple of general questions...
> 
> 1. I don't know much about going tubeless. I will google/YouTube it for sure to learn more, but generally this isn't doable on cheaper wheels like I'm sure I have, right? They don't say "tubeless ready" or whatever like more expensive bikes spec.
> 
> ...


Point 1
- Most rims can be converted to tubless with stans rim strip kit. This not that hard, but see point 2 first.

Point 2
- In order to explore lower pressures on tube tires you have to be able to change a flat on the trail. You will never know how low you can go until you flat. When you do you will have to change it. Changing a flat is not hard, but do practice at home first. Much easier than out on the trail miles away from help. Also it is not good form to be on a trail and have flat 5 miles from home and beg some one for help. It can happen you flat and change it flat again and need a 2nd tube. I can happen that your spare tube develops a hole. Both of these happened to me. Other rider are willing to help as it happens sometime. If however you have no tools or spares... Other rider may be willing to help, but will not generally like it. Poor from. It is even worse form to make me also fix your bike. The exception is you are pretty attractive female. In that case there may be line of guys willing to help. But in normal cases learn how to fix this stuff and have parts/tools to be able to do it trail side.


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## Fairbanks007 (Sep 5, 2009)

Nubster said:


> Good luck. You'll get it I'm sure. Too bad this wasn't posted back in July. I was up your way for a few days in the St. Clair area. I was looking for some places to ride but didn't get much help with local-ish trail locations so I left my bike at home here in WV.


If you're used to riding in WV, you'd be bored stiff by 90% of the trails in SE MI. There's not a lot of classic, East Coast style singletrack here (rocks, roots, hills), almost nothing technical in the sense you're probably used to, but there is this weird stuff called "sand" all over the place - especially after it rains. It doesn't provide much cornering grip and causes your drive train to make odd noises unless cleaned frequently. It is softer than falling on rocks, though.


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## Fairbanks007 (Sep 5, 2009)

guitarguy said:


> Couple of general questions...
> 
> 1. I don't know much about going tubeless. I will google/YouTube it for sure to learn more, but generally this isn't doable on cheaper wheels like I'm sure I have, right? They don't say "tubeless ready" or whatever like more expensive bikes spec.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worry too much about most of this for now. Most of this advice will come in handy some day, and all of it is undoubtedly well intentioned, but for right now you've just got to put some time on the bike. As I said earlier, riding with others can help lessen your learning curve. Eventually, you'll figure out what works for you and what doesn't.

Are you still up for riding on Sunday? If you have a hand pump, bring it - no need to wait 2 weeks to learn how to change a tire. Do you ride clipless or on flats? I ride both and will set my bike up to match what you're riding. Might make it easier to pick up some stuff.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Fairbanks007 said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about most of this for now. Most of this advice will come in handy some day, and all of it is undoubtedly well intentioned, but for right now you've just got to put some time on the bike. As I said earlier, riding with others can help lessen your learning curve. Eventually, you'll figure out what works for you and what doesn't.
> 
> Are you still up for riding on Sunday? If you have a hand pump, bring it - no need to wait 2 weeks to learn how to change a tire. Do you ride clipless or on flats? I ride both and will set my bike up to match what you're riding. Might make it easier to pick up some stuff.


Yeah man, absolutely still down! I've got your info was gonna text ya tmrw to confirm the time. Looking forward to the coaching and trying to keep up!

I do have a hand pump, I'll bring it.

I ride on flats. At this stage attaching myself to the bike would seem terrifying! Hahaha


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

At your weight and the terrain you can go 20-22 front and 25-27 rear. If you feel a rim hit add a couple pounds. 
Practice hopping at curbs. Get up speed and coast toward a curb standing off the seat. Pop the front wheel to not hit the curb. As your momentum carries you forward push forward on your bars like you're trying to weight the front wheel and drive it down. This unweights your rear and helps it get up over the curb with limited or no impact.
Practice practice practice. Now you can avoid some of the hard rock hits that can lead to a flat.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

guitarguy said:


> Couple of general questions...
> 
> 1. I don't know much about going tubeless. I will google/YouTube it for sure to learn more, but generally this isn't doable on cheaper wheels like I'm sure I have, right? They don't say "tubeless ready" or whatever like more expensive bikes spec.
> 
> ...


Most tubes are 5-8 ounces. Most of 'our' bikes are 30-50 lbs depending on if they are aluminum or steel frames. So it's a 1.5-3.0% increase in bike weight to have tubes. It's not a critical item to save weight on but yes in theory it would save some weight. An aluminum frame will save 10-15 times the weight vs. steel as going tubeless. And yes 'our' bike rims generally under $100 each are not made to do tubeless tires; you can put stripping on the rim to prevent the air from escaping through the spoke holes but it all seems a bit much. Some guys enjoy working on their bikes, I don't.

The most important thing when changing tubes is to pump up the new tube just enough to be round before you put it in the tire (it makes a very loud noise when it breaks if you don't pre-pump it). Also try to get one side of the tire on the rim first and then work on the other side, and you'll have to let some air out to get the other side on the rim, then finish pumping up. Takes me about 10 min total.

Oh and one last thing, I noticed that it's not necessarily the PSI that can lead to flats out there it's also the thickness and knobbyness of the tire. I got two flats in two weeks on the back from a tire whose PSI was fine at 40 but whose tread was at least 1/3 gone and it was a thinner tire to begin with. A heavier tire seems to avoid flats much better but now we are back to weight being an issue. The Maxxis Minion DHF 2.5 is so thick and heavy it's almost overkill. When I first took it out of the box it looked and felt like a motorcycle tire. I was like no way this is fitting on my 23mm rim (but it did easily!). No flats with it but it does add weight. That's on the front, the back is now Kenda Nevegal 2.35, no flats yet but oddly the traction doesn't seem much improved over the slicker tire. Good traction rear tires seem elusive for some reason, that is an ongoing purchase experiment. But no flats are really nice; it doesn't matter if someone has a spare tire and pump, it just sucks fixing flats on the trail.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

This is post 100.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> Most tubes are 5-8 ounces. Most of 'our' bikes are 30-50 lbs depending on if they are aluminum or steel frames. So it's a 1.5-3.0% increase in bike weight to have tubes. It's not a critical item to save weight on but yes in theory it would save some weight. An aluminum frame will save 10-15 times the weight vs. steel as going tubeless. And yes 'our' bike rims generally under $100 each are not made to do tubeless tires; you can put stripping on the rim to prevent the air from escaping through the spoke holes but it all seems a bit much. Some guys enjoy working on their bikes, I don't.
> 
> The most important thing when changing tubes is to pump up the new tube just enough to be round before you put it in the tire (it makes a very loud noise when it breaks if you don't pre-pump it). Also try to get one side of the tire on the rim first and then work on the other side, and you'll have to let some air out to get the other side on the rim, then finish pumping up. Takes me about 10 min total.
> 
> Oh and one last thing, I noticed that it's not necessarily the PSI that can lead to flats out there it's also the thickness and knobbyness of the tire. I got two flats in two weeks on the back from a tire whose PSI was fine at 40 but whose tread was at least 1/3 gone and it was a thinner tire to begin with. A heavier tire seems to avoid flats much better but now we are back to weight being an issue. The Maxxis Minion DHF 2.5 is so thick and heavy it's almost overkill. When I first took it out of the box it looked and felt like a motorcycle tire. I was like no way this is fitting on my 23mm rim (but it did easily!). No flats with it but it does add weight. That's on the front, the back is now Kenda Nevegal 2.35, no flats yet but oddly the traction doesn't seem much improved over the slicker tire. Good traction rear tires seem elusive for some reason, that is an ongoing purchase experiment. But no flats are really nice; it doesn't matter if someone has a spare tire and pump, it just sucks fixing flats on the trail.


Couple things..

The weight of a bike is more about it's design and build than material. I have some steel bikes that are lighter or equal to some of my carbon and aluminum bikes in weight. Actually my lightest mountain bike is a 22 year old steel hardtail. My heaviest bike is aluminum, and weighs about twice what the old hardtail does. Though mainly you do see aluminum bikes being used more than steel in the lower price ranges, a lot of that is based on $$ and marketing rather than steel being any sort of inherently inferior frame material. You can get a sweet Jamis Dragon hardtail for under a grand that weighs ~30lbs, and I've got a 6" travel FS steel bike that comes in not much over that. Steel is real! 

Changing flats on the trail is part of the game. Definitely practice at home til you're pretty comfortable about it. Know how to get your wheels on and off, make sure you have the tools to do it if needed, let the air out of your tires and take them off and put them back on the rim and air them up with whatever pump you'll be using on the trail. (I highly recommend one with a hose and and a fold-out footpeg like the Topeak Mtn Morph - makes things way easier). If you want to save a few more seconds and have Presta valves, you can pre-inflate the tube by just blowing into it a couple times. Saves attaching the pump twice and you won't need to air it down to get the tire mounted.

Get rid of the Nevegal and put a Maxxis on the back. Try a High Roller or DHR something. Way better.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

richj8990 said:


> ******Also I think you are the first person I've read on here that likes Suntour XCT forks, most people call them pogo sticks. I have one but I have no idea how they compare because I've never had anything better (yet). *******
> ************ I guess you need to experiment with the right tire width and psi to get it dialed in for what the trail type is.


Yep, had one but as you move up the fork ladder you will know the difference as your skills Improve.

Those cheap Suntour forks that come on $350-$500 hard tails are better suited to keep a screen door from slamming shut.
I had a blast riding one all of my first season, didn't know better.
But when I upgraded to the Suntour Raidon air fork It transformed my bike.

After that I carefully upgraded and moved to better bikes,
Learning about tire construction, tread design, casing design, rim width and Its relation to tread profiles, tubeless,,Tubeless Is a profound change, and proper tire pressure for my riding and trails, I would have to say that tire/wheel knowledge was the biggest leap forward for me and absolutely the biggest bang for the buck.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

*Update after coaching ride and bike setup changes*

I know you all were on the edge of your seats, so here's an update after a great ride yesterday!



Fairbanks007 said:


> Dude, Riverbends is literally in my back yard. PM me and we can go for a ride there.


Thanks to this guy ^ giving me some great coaching and spending time #1 waiting for me to catch up after he effortlessly lost me on the trail haha, and then #2 demonstrating techniques and helping me session a bunch of stuff, I was able to tackle every obstacle that I posted about! :thumbsup:

After crashing into it a few times and getting stuck, I made it over that angled log pile. Then went back and did it again. And again. More comfortable each time. A tad more speed and just fully committing rather than giving up half way through was the ticket to getting over that thing.

After some coaching on how to pick a line, how to brake, and just some confidence inspiring dialogue, I made it down that rooty hill. At about half speed compared to my illustrious coach, but I made it down. Then went back and did it again a couple more times. It was so much easier than it looked! Mostly mental. Just need more practice to take it faster. On lap 2 we went right down without hesitating and continued on. Felt great.

After being too scared to go over that drop on our first lap, I went back and with some coaching, was at least able to get my weight back and slowly roll it a couple times. Didn't jump off, but definitely a step forward going over it at all as others on the trail that passed us all went around it. Then there were the cool dudes on bmx bikes that hopped off it like it was nothing more than a curb at the end of your driveway...yeah. haha. Need to work in my confidence on these.

Then there was all the extra stuff I learned just watching and listening...

Before we even got going...how to change a tire. Fairly self-explanatory!

How to ratchet over a log pile out of a sharp turn at low speed. Great lesson. Took a few tries bottoming out my pedal and bailing off, a couple demonstrations, and then suddenly it clicked and I had it. "If you can't ride it slow, you can't ride it." Quote of the day! Great advice.

Stopping to lower the seat for some of this technical stuff like the drop and the rooty decent. Great advice there. Made a HUGE difference in ability to shift my weight around. And...yeah...now I want a dropper post.

How to pick a line and stick to it...important skill that I need to work on. Through the corners, around rocks and roots, down the hills, off the drop, etc. Every spot we focused on picking a line. Great learning experience.

Planning on another coaching session at Stoney Creek (for you MI riders) at the skills course where they have more open areas to work on this stuff...various drops to practice on, etc. Can't wait.

Also on my to-do list, find out what kind of beer Fairbanks drinks! 

A couple more side items:

1. I love love LOVE my ODI Rogue grips. They are grippy, comfortable, and just plain awesome. Also a breeze to install.
2. The change to the 80mm stem from 100mm was definitely a positive change. Felt more comfortable. Next ride I'm going to try the 60mm to see if I like it even better or if it crosses the line and becomes too short. I didn't notice any front tire lifting when going up hills or really any major difference in the feel of the steering. 
3. The Raidon is on it's way!
4. I wanna leave work now and go riding. Is that bad?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Awesome.

Fairbanks you da man.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

It is amazing what actual coaching will do vs internet talk.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Cool stuff! I think a case of beer is in order


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## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

Sounds like you're getting some great coaching & nothing I could say can top that. But there are a few things that I haven't seen mentioned yet. 

A bash-guard can help you get over the taller logs & log piles. It will also protect your rings. 

Some general technique advice for getting over obstacles & through rough sections on down-hill sections in addition to keeping your weight back: drop your heels but keep your knees slightly flexed. Keep your elbows high & slightly flexed. 

The main advantage of tubeless tires is not weight savings - it's less rolling resistance & ability to run lower pressure, resulting in better grip.

The best grip tires that I've found for northeast rooty-rocky-loggy trails are Schwalbe Hans-Dampf Trailstar. I would expect they could work well in SE MI. I run them at 20-22psi tubeless.

Cheap rims can have a couple problems when trying to setup tubeless. The seams may not be welded tight enough to be airtight. This might be fixed with good rim-tape, but only up to a point. The other problem is that the rim lips might not be tight enough or have the right contour to seat properly. Even if you can manage to seat them, they might be too shallow & pop off easily when you ride over an obstacle. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

To all that have contributed through the thread...thanks for the notes on tubeless and tires! I think for now, seeing as how my rims aren't "tubeless ready" and stuff...I'm not going to worry about going tubeless. 

I will follow up on the suggestion to drop my pressure below 35 ish psi which is what I was running, to see how that impacts and feels. 

I'm also thinking about trying some wider better quality tires at some point...something like the Maxxis Ardent (which is what coach Fairbanks was running) looks like it might be a good fit for this terrain. 

From reading up, I could probably fit these slightly wider 2.4" tires on to replace my 2.2 in the front and 2.0 in the rear Botranger X2's...but of course I'll have to see. I could always buy them from REI and then if they don't fit right or something I could just return them. 

Question: If I go with these slightly wider tires do I have to get different/wider tubes? Google didn't really give me a clear answer on this...

I don't really feel myself losing traction on turns much yet (I probably don't push fast enough or lean hard enough to wash out) but have noticed my thin rear tire spinning every now and then when standing climbing. I try to sit on the front of the saddle to accommodate, or just deal with a little spin and the tire hooks up and I can make it up. Thinking a wider/better tire might help with this. 

Or maybe moving the 2.2 X2 from the front to the rear and going with a Maxxis 2.4 Ardent up front would be a good idea. Mismatching tires...but I guess that wouldn't be a big deal aside from looks.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Tubes are good for a tire size range. It's possible you may need new ones if the current tubes are at the top of their range. It will be printed on the tube so when you remove them you'll be able to see the range.

For example...this is a tube from my bike when I converted to tubeless...you can see it's a 27.5" tube and the tire size range is 2.1 to 2.35".









And yes, wider tires and lower pressure will help with traction. That's why plus size tires are so awesome and people rave about how it's almost like cheating on the trails.

As far as mix matching...lots of folks do it to customize the way their bike handles. It's not uncommon at all to see different brands, models, sizes on a bike.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

guitarguy said:


> To all that have contributed through the thread...thanks for the notes on tubeless and tires! I think for now, seeing as how my rims aren't "tubeless ready" and stuff...I'm not going to worry about going tubeless.
> 
> I will follow up on the suggestion to drop my pressure below 35 ish psi which is what I was running, to see how that impacts and feels.
> 
> ...


You wouldn't need to get new tubes. Tubes stretch quite a bit. Having said that, you not only have to think about clearance with the chainstays and front derailleur, but you should also consider what the width of your rims will allow. It's quite possible your rims are better suited for 2.25" tires.

When standing and pedaling up something steep, try standing straight up and driving all of your weight down into the bottom bracket. Don't hang on the bar or pull unless you are specifically trying to get over something or else your front end will come up. This will generally help you keep the nose of the bike down and maximize traction on the rear tire.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

guitarguy said:


> To all that have contributed through the thread...thanks for the notes on tubeless and tires! I think for now, seeing as how my rims aren't "tubeless ready" and stuff...I'm not going to worry about going tubeless.
> 
> I will follow up on the suggestion to drop my pressure below 35 ish psi which is what I was running, to see how that impacts and feels.
> 
> ...


Ardents do pretty well on hardpack, I'd say. My wife's bike came with an Ardent on the back, and a DHF on the front. The DHF up front gives her some nice cornering grip so she can lean the bike over at speed in some sketchier conditions. It also gives a bit better braking traction. The rear is a lot less important for turning and braking and much more important for acceleration. The Ardent wouldn't be a great choice for really loose stuff, but it's good for more hardpack type trails.

She has a DHR/DHF combo for her older 26er for more winter conditions. The DHR gives much better acceleration traction for light snow, for example, which is pretty much when she uses those tires. She also used them for the Iceman race last year, in case of poor weather. She didn't wind up needing them, because it was so nice out.

On my FS fatbike, I currently have the same tires front and rear (Surly Nate). That tire has a tread pattern that works reasonably well front or back, except I flip the tread for each tire. Front tire runs one way for cornering/braking, while I run the rear tire opposite for better acceleration traction. They're my loose/soft conditions tires.

Years ago, I did a 2.4 front/2.2 rear combo, when I was on my old Stumpjumper. It worked. But honestly, I should have just done 2.4 front/rear (old Continental x-king) and be done with it. Running a 2.2 in the back didn't really gain me much. Had to run higher pressures to avoid rim strikes. About all it did was let the rear tire dig down into loose sand, which I'm not sure did as much as I'd hoped it would.

As for your tires slipping on climbs, that's always a fine balancing act. Being dynamic over the bike gives you the ability to adjust your body position on the fly to deal with little body position tweaks you'll need to make. If your rear tire slips, you probably need more weight back there to keep the tire planted. So you'll need to shift back a little. But not too much or you'll start having issues up front. Each bike is going to be a little different, and they'll all vary depending on how your body weight is distributed. On my current bike, standing tall to power up on climbs is generally a recipe to spin out. That method worked great on my previous bike, though. On my current bike, keeping my chest low to the bars works better. Which means my rear is either on or hovering just above the saddle. My fore-aft movement lets me balance how much weight goes to each tire depending on my needs. When it gets really steep, putting my taint right on the nose of the saddle seems to be the way to go.

You'll likely have to play around with your body position a bit to find what works best for you and your bike given the conditions.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

I do like the idea as Harold says to just run the same tires front and rear to keep it simple. 

Ardent comes in 2.25 or 2.4...if I can fit the 2.4s front and rear that would be cool. How do I know if the rims are suited for those or not?

And if they'll seat on the rims, how do I know they're ok for fit on the bike and frame? As long as they don't hit anything? Or is there a rule of thumb for clearance required?

The Maxxis High Roller II comes in 2.3...maybe that's another option. Seems like it might be better suited for mud though, which to date I haven't ridden a lot of muddy trails...but to be fair I started in mid summer.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I used HR's front and rear for general conditions in New England and they work and wear well.
Dedicated mud tires are a whole different thing.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

guitarguy said:


> Ardent comes in 2.25 or 2.4...if I can fit the 2.4s front and rear that would be cool. How do I know if the rims are suited for those or not?
> 
> And if they'll seat on the rims, how do I know they're ok for fit on the bike and frame? As long as they don't hit anything? Or is there a rule of thumb for clearance required?


I don't know how wide of rims come on bikes like the Marlin 5 these days. It might not be an issue, but inexpensive bikes tend toward narrower rims. Rims usually have width listed on them somewhere. For rear clearance, Trek's site says the Marlin is only good up to 2.2". I would say you need at least 5mm of clearance between the tire and anything else. You have to account for frame flex, so having more clearance is never a bad thing.

It's not a matter of whether or not the tire will seat, but what kind of profile it will have on the rim. 2.4" generally works on rims 19mm, but mid 20s would be better.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

guitarguy said:


> I do like the idea as Harold says to just run the same tires front and rear to keep it simple.
> 
> Ardent comes in 2.25 or 2.4...if I can fit the 2.4s front and rear that would be cool. How do I know if the rims are suited for those or not?
> 
> ...


Deciding if a rim is "too narrow" for a tire is a lot tougher than deciding if it's too wide. You won't have any trouble with the too wide side of things unless you start trying to mount 19mm wide road tires on your mtb rims. A big part of the width challenge is that one company's 2.4 is another company's 2.2, so tire widths aren't directly comparable between brands. Unless you are able to find a resource where someone has actually measured a bunch of tires on the same width rims at a standard pressure and put calipers on. How each tire actually behaves on that rim is going to vary depending on the casing construction of the tire.

Put a 2.4" tire with a super light and flexy race casing onto a narrow rim, and it's going to start flopping around and feeling squirmy under you long before the same tire with a stiffer, burlier casing.

To decide if a tire will actually fit, start by measuring your frame. You'll be using your current tires as a reference point. You'll want to pay attention to the width between the chainstays and seatstays of the frame, as well as anything that might create height clearance issues. Any braces for the frame between the stays, or possibly the seat tube itself if the tire really tucks up against it. Do some absolute measurements, as well as some measurements of how much space relative to your current tires. Doing that will help you guesstimate how much room you have to work with.

Take pics if you want to ask other people's advice, too. Don't forget about the fork. While forks usually aren't the limiting factor on most people's bikes, definitely check to make sure yours isn't.

As for mud, you shouldn't be riding in a bunch of mud, anyway. Give the trails a break. Up where you are, you'll have a stretch of time in the springtime when stuff is thawing out where you'll want to take it easy and maybe ride pavement or gravel roads instead of the trails. I'll be giving my local trails a little time to dry out from Irma...and maybe Jose, too. As you get more experienced, you'll learn which trails handle moisture better than others. Terrain and soil type have a pretty significant effect on the sort of abuse a trail can handle.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> I used HR's front and rear for general conditions in New England and they work and wear well.
> Dedicated mud tires are a whole different thing.


Good to know! This is the type of all around general tire I'm looking for.

Don't think anything mud specific is well suited for me at least right now.

I do also ride on the road short distances to commute to dinner or the trail...so hopefully they will be semi durable for this too. Maybe 10-15% of use.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Great to read about your positive experience! Keep up the good work! Glad to see you understand how a dropper post can help you out. Keep on the lookout for dropper deals.


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## Vtbikologist (Feb 1, 2016)

All the responses seem to address building skills or details of the bike. Lots of good advice already about skills, so I'll comment on the bike as my perspective is different. If indeed you love mtb and want to stick with it, do it a lot, and do some challenging trails, then my advice is to not spend any money on your current bike. You will only be trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and the results won't get you where you need to go. Instead, spend as much as you can afford on a new bike appropriate to the terrain you will ride. If you have quality, you will enjoy riding that bike every time out and it will help you on the trail. If you try to go for an so-so bike, you'll probably end up replacing it not too far down the line. That's OK if that's your plan, but it may be better to buy what you really want now. I agree with a number of the comments about what components make the most difference, but a cheap bike is likely have cheap components throughout. You can change out some parts on your current bike, but you will soon become aware of other shortcomings. So get a new bike that's got all quality and I think you'll notice a big difference. You can test my opinion by trying out some good bikes, such as by renting or demo-ing.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Battery said:


> Great to read about your positive experience! Keep up the good work! Glad to see you understand how a dropper post can help you out. Keep on the lookout for dropper deals.


Not sure how long of one you (the OP) need...but I'm probably selling mine. It's too long for my frame. It'll be a new take off KS LEV Integra, 31.6 post, 150mm dropper.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Vtbikologist said:


> All the responses seem to address building skills or details of the bike. Lots of good advice already about skills, so I'll comment on the bike as my perspective is different. If indeed you love mtb and want to stick with it, do it a lot, and do some challenging trails, then my advice is to not spend any money on your current bike. You will only be trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and the results won't get you where you need to go. Instead, spend as much as you can afford on a new bike appropriate to the terrain you will ride. If you have quality, you will enjoy riding that bike every time out and it will help you on the trail. If you try to go for an so-so bike, you'll probably end up replacing it not too far down the line. That's OK if that's your plan, but it may be better to buy what you really want now. I agree with a number of the comments about what components make the most difference, but a cheap bike is likely have cheap components throughout. You can change out some parts on your current bike, but you will soon become aware of other shortcomings. So get a new bike that's got all quality and I think you'll notice a big difference. You can test my opinion by trying out some good bikes, such as by renting or demo-ing.


Thanks for the input!

You're 100% right. I know that in the grand scheme of things I'd be better off buying a whole new bike now. I'm fortunate that I can afford it. And I'm 100% certain I will upgrade eventually. I realize that upgrading this entry level bike is putting lipstick on a pig.

But at the same time, the many here who have said "just go ride" are right too. I need to get some skills first before worrying too much about the bike.

Even though it's not the most cost effective, I'm taking a compromised approach. I've thought this over quite a bit actually and based my decision on several factors. I just bought this bike. It's hard to justify going out and buying another one 2 months later. I decided I wanna get at least a season or 2 out of this bike.

But there are things I don't like about it...so I'm changing them. The grips sucked...ODI's are wow super nice. The fork feels like a jackhammer, so I'm getting a Raidon through the upgrade program for what I consider to be a reasonable price. The pedals sucked so I got Chesters. I'm experimenting with stem length and adjusting my cockpit to make it more comfortable. Switched to 1 finger braking setup. I really want a dropper post...not just because I wanna upgrade the bike, but because I know my next bike will absolutely have one and I wanna get used to riding with and utilizing one regularly.

All this stuff...some costs $ and some doesn't...but it's all learning for me. I'm making the bike more fun to ride. I'm figuring out what I like and don't like, what I want and don't want in my next bike. So far, the Tourney drivetrain, stock saddle, brakes, etc...none of that bothers me. It works just fine...like another posted said...ignorance is bliss! But all learning. For example I basically never shift the front, so I decided I definitely want a 1X setup on my next bike. But so far, most cost effective or not, the money I'm spending on this bike is all a great learning experience. That's what I'm after more than anything.

Plus on a side note, my brother is about the same height as me and really wants to get into this but can't afford to buy a bike right now. In a year or 2, he may find an entry level but half decent and rideable Marlin that's available for him to ride anytime in my garage.

So I have thought about it. If $ was the only factor, I wouldn't sink a dime into this bike. I'd just save for the next one. But the learning is just as important to me as spending the money.

If any of that makes any sense.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Nubster said:


> Not sure how long of one you (the OP) need...but I'm probably selling mine. It's too long for my frame. It'll be a new take off KS LEV Integra, 31.6 post, 150mm dropper.


I need a 27.2. No internal routing either.

From what I see on google these look super pricey which sucks. Hoping maybe I can find one used or something because I can't see paying as much as I paid for the bike on a dropper...

:-(


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

guitarguy said:


> You're 100% right. I know that in the grand scheme of things I'd be better off buying a whole new bike now. I'm fortunate that I can afford it. And I'm 100% certain I will upgrade eventually. I realize that upgrading this entry level bike is putting lipstick on a pig.
> 
> But at the same time, the many here who have said "just go ride" are right too. I need to get some skills first before worrying too much about the bike.


I'd focus more on learning skills than about bike parts. Skills will pay off more in the long run. When you choose to buy another bike, the only thing that will for sure transfer over is you. The less you suck, the better.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

guitarguy said:


> I need a 27.2. No internal routing either.
> 
> From what I see on google these look super pricey which sucks. Hoping maybe I can find one used or something because I can't see paying as much as I paid for the bike on a dropper...
> 
> :-(


How about the KS e-ten @ jensons?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

guitarguy said:


> Thanks for the input!
> 
> You're 100% right. I know that in the grand scheme of things I'd be better off buying a whole new bike now. I'm fortunate that I can afford it. And I'm 100% certain I will upgrade eventually. I realize that upgrading this entry level bike is putting lipstick on a pig.
> 
> ...


Tires grips pedal seat stem bars...these are all parts that I'd find myself likely to change on many stock bikes, regardless of price. Lots of bang for the buck as far as making a bike fit you the way you want it to.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

jcd46 said:


> How about the KS e-ten @ jensons?


This actually looks like a solid option...for $116 it seems like it's worth a shot.

Big thread on it here in the component forum...looks like people identified some issues but the majority say it works fine.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

guitarguy said:


> This actually looks like a solid option...for $116 it seems like it's worth a shot.
> 
> Big thread on it here in the component forum...looks like people identified some issues but the majority say it works fine.


It's not bad for the price but you have to decide if 100mm of travel is enough for you. My KS Dropzone travels 125mm and I plan on getting 150mm in the near future! I like having a little bit extra travel after riding on my post for a year.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Battery said:


> It's not bad for the price but you have to decide if 100mm of travel is enough for you. My KS Dropzone travels 125mm and I plan on getting 150mm in the near future! I like having a little bit extra travel after riding on my post for a year.


Well...I am tall...so more travel might be better.

But...I'm also still a beginner so my riding likely won't be more than 100mm of drop can handle. Plus, when I adjusted my seat recently for riding some of the more technical stuff like I mentioned, I don't think it even went down 100mm and it still helped a lot. I'd have to measure how far it went before my seatpost bottomed out, but I'd bet it was less than 4".

So for the short term, to get me started getting used to riding with a dropper, and knowing I'll probably buy another bike before too long, it should be decent enough. Especially at 4X less cost than the Thompson and 3X less than the Lev.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

guitarguy said:


> Well...I am tall...so more travel might be better.
> 
> But...I'm also still a beginner so my riding likely won't be more than 100mm of drop can handle. Plus, when I adjusted my seat recently for riding some of the more technical stuff like I mentioned, I don't think it even went down 100mm and it still helped a lot. I'd have to measure how far it went before my seatpost bottomed out, but I'd bet it was less than 4".
> 
> So for the short term, to get me started getting used to riding with a dropper, and knowing I'll probably buy another bike before too long, it should be decent enough. Especially at 4X less cost than the Thompson and 3X less than the Lev.


The amount of drop in a properly-fitting dropper post will depend on how much seatpost is exposed on your bike with the seat at full pedaling height. I doubt a 150mm post would fit my bike. I have a 125mm dropper now.

You also have to pay attention to the insert depth/overall length of the post. A 27.2mm post, for example, needs a longer insert depth than other posts to fit the various components inside the dropper. You need to know how much post will need to be inserted into your frame, and whether your frame has anything in there that would limit that insertion depth. Things like water bottle bolts, welds, bends in the tubing, etc.

So you'll need to do a lot of measuring.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Harold said:


> The amount of drop in a properly-fitting dropper post will depend on how much seatpost is exposed on your bike with the seat at full pedaling height. I doubt a 150mm post would fit my bike. I have a 125mm dropper now.
> 
> You also have to pay attention to the insert depth/overall length of the post. A 27.2mm post, for example, needs a longer insert depth than other posts to fit the various components inside the dropper. You need to know how much post will need to be inserted into your frame, and whether your frame has anything in there that would limit that insertion depth. Things like water bottle bolts, welds, bends in the tubing, etc.
> 
> So you'll need to do a lot of measuring.


Makes sense.

I assume the required amount of post insertion and so forth will be spec'd out in the literature with the dropper? I think as long as that is clear it should be fairly straightforward.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

guitarguy said:


> But...I'm also still a beginner so my riding likely won't be more than 100mm of drop can handle.


I'm sure.
Everyone on the planet did fine with 0mm until a few years ago, and most of us still do.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm sure.
> Everyone on the planet did fine with 0mm until a few years ago, and most of us still do.


I realize a dropper post is something I don't necessarily need.

But it's cool!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

guitarguy said:


> I realize a dropper post is something I don't necessarily need.
> 
> But it's cool!


Can't hurt.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

guitarguy said:


> Makes sense.
> 
> I assume the required amount of post insertion and so forth will be spec'd out in the literature with the dropper? I think as long as that is clear it should be fairly straightforward.


Most manufacturers provide the relevant information on their websites. Some are terrible about it. Giant's dropper is really nice for cases like yours, since it's easy to switch from internal cable routing to external. However, Giant is absolutely terrible about providing the important measurements. You get overall length and diameter and that's about it. You aren't given the extended length from the saddle rails to the underside of the collar, or enough other dimensions to calculate it, which is a key measurement.

Take this one, for example. Thomson has a nice line drawing for its dropper.

https://www.bikethomson.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/009-DROPPER-SEATPOST-USEABLE-DATA-rev-D.pdf

Take the KS eTen. An even better drawing.

http://www.kssuspension.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017-eTEN-Drawing.pdf

This is the sizing info you need.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Harold said:


> Take the KS eTen. An even better drawing.
> 
> http://www.kssuspension.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017-eTEN-Drawing.pdf
> 
> This is the sizing info you need.


Awesome! Saving this to pdf.

Thanks!!!


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## Fairbanks007 (Sep 5, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm sure.
> Everyone on the planet did fine with 0mm until a few years ago, and most of us still do.


I may actually used these very words on our ride. Droppers are a convenience, at best.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Fairbanks007 said:


> I may actually used these very words on our ride. Droppers are a convenience, at best.


Yessir, you did!

But when we stopped and I lowered the seat, it really seemed to help on some of these obstacles. Definitely made me more comfortable and confident going down that hill and rolling off that drop.

I know it's not old school...but man it would've been super convenient to be able to adjust without having to stop, get off the bike, lower the seat, do the obstacle, stop, get off the bike, raise the seat, and continue the ride!


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## Vtbikologist (Feb 1, 2016)

There are other threads where people debate droppers. They are of course not as necessary as tires, but I would say a Big convenience. There's a reason why they are so popular. But, to each his own.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Two words: Get Back!

If you are needing a lower seat to ride these, you are almost certainly too far forward and getting bucked making you feel less confident. 

Pardon the depiction, but practice getting back! I'm talking about family jewels behind the seat. 

If you would spend this money on 1 day of skills coaching or on a few evenings with the weekly ride group, I think you will be in a much better and happier place.

Droppers are great. I have one, but it's off the bike for race season/service. I don't like to do anything super "sendy" without it but I'm able to ride some pretty sketchy stuff without it. 

The shorter stem will help you get back more too. Practice hanging off the back. In the driveway and get the feeling for this. You will take so much weight off the tires by doing this that when riding roots you can just float over. The bike will roll over but your body will stay out because you aren't standing on top of the pedals pushing down and you aren't sitting in the Seat. 


Your elbows, knees, hips have waaay more travel than your Bike. Many people don't fully use this travel and just buy a "cushier" longer travel bike which allows them to ride with bad habits. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

FJSnoozer said:


> Two words: Get Back!
> 
> Pardon the depiction, but practice getting back! I'm talking about family jewels behind the seat.


Yes! This is what I did and it helped to be able to tackle this stuff. But it was so much easier to get my ass back there with the seat lowered!


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Try leveling the pedals before you get back. If one foot is down it makes it hard to get back. You can still get back with a seatpost at XC race height. Trying to do it with one foot down and coasting vs level make a huge difference in clearance. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

FJSnoozer said:


> Try leveling the pedals before you get back. If one foot is down it makes it hard to get back. You can still get back with a seatpost at XC race height. Trying to do it with one foot down and coasting vs level make a huge difference in clearance.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That makes sense. I pretty much always have my pedals level when I get that far back...it just is naturally easier that way.

I think that I can still get there with the seat up, but it's not as quick or as smooth, or as easy to do. I wear decently snug fitting mtb specific shorts and they still hit the seat when I'm moving around and it's high, especially coming back up. My legs hit the back wider part of the seat too going each way. Then when I hit the ground and my body moves relative to the bike, it feels like the seat is going to slam into my crotch. I dunno. It just felt way easier and more comfortable with the seat lowered!!

And I checked, lowering my current seat post down was only about 2.75" give or take. 4" from this post would prob feel like a dream.

In the end I know the most important factor is to work on my skills and...go ride. ;-)


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

FJSnoozer said:


> Two words: Get Back!
> 
> If you are needing a lower seat to ride these, you are almost certainly too far forward and getting bucked making you feel less confident.
> 
> ...


I don't know if I agree with this. I say, get low instead of get back and stay centered over the bottom bracket (BB) pretty much always. Hanging off the back might work, but it's passive. You either want to push the bar forward or pull it back, depending on the situation. Practicing a good hip hinge both on and off the bike will help a lot. When you get to a steep rooty descent, you'll get low, push the bars forward, but stay with your belly button over the BB. Your upper torso will essentially be in the same position throughout. This video is a promo for Lee McCormack's Rip Row, but the position in the video is what you want to strive for:





.

P.S. Lee also has some pretty good stuff in his online bike school, which I recommend liberally but no one ever seems to try because it's a subscription service. There are promo codes out there (http://www.leelikesbikes.com/row-anti-row.html). His cockpit setup would probably help you out a lot too.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

s0ckeyeus said:


> I don't know if I agree with this. I say, get low instead of get back and stay centered over the bottom bracket (BB) pretty much always.


Absolutely agree here. The ONLY reason people talk about getting behind the seat is because the damn thing is in the way of getting low, and you have no choice unless you manually drop it, or use a dropper post. But staying low and centered is SO MUCH BETTER, as it gives you more range of motion to adapt to the terrain. That vid does a great job of showing you what's going on.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Harold said:


> Absolutely agree here. The ONLY reason people talk about getting behind the seat is because the damn thing is in the way of getting low, and you have no choice unless you manually drop it, or use a dropper post. But staying low and centered is SO MUCH BETTER, as it gives you more range of motion to adapt to the terrain. That vid does a great job of showing you what's going on.


Just so the OP understands, if you point the bike down far enough, you will end up "behind the saddle," but "getting back" shouldn't really be the emphasis. A high saddle makes things harder, but some of the XC guys do pretty well with a higher hinge. This guy has to make a few compromises but still looks pretty good:


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

s0ckeyeus said:


> Just so the OP understands, if you point the bike down far enough, you will end up "behind the saddle," but "getting back" shouldn't really be the emphasis. A high saddle makes things harder, but some of the XC guys do pretty well with a higher hinge. This guy has to make a few compromises but still looks pretty good:


True. To elaborate on some of those compromises, note that he can only get so low because now his saddle is in his gut. Been there, done that. One position simply not possible there is to get low by just crouching, which is a position I find that I actually use now that I have a dropper.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Harold said:


> Absolutely agree here. The ONLY reason people talk about getting behind the seat is because the damn thing is in the way of getting low, and you have no choice unless you manually drop it, or use a dropper post. But staying low and centered is SO MUCH BETTER, as it gives you more range of motion to adapt to the terrain. That vid does a great job of showing you what's going on.


Thanks Harold, this might have sold me on a dropper. I have no issue getting behind the seat, but this makes so much sense now when presented like you guys just did.

The point is not really "behind" but "low". So, when you guys drop your posts, you do go back but depending on the steepness of the descent?


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## Fairbanks007 (Sep 5, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Awesome.
> 
> Fairbanks you da man.


Thanks.

Someone, somewhere, at one time or another, has done something like this for nearly all of us. Today it was my turn, someday it'll be guitarguy's turn.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jcd46 said:


> The point is not really "behind" but "low". So, when you guys drop your posts, you do go back but depending on the steepness of the descent?


Not just steepness of the descent. There are other times when going back is useful. Manuals, for one. Other stuff, too. But yes, steepness of the descent is one. Sometimes, a descent is so steep that the hairs on your ass get tickled by your tire. I find that position with or without a dropper. But not having the seat in my chest when I need to do that is really helpful.

Some people can't find that position without a dropper. My wife, for one, has major trouble with it. Her issue is that she has somewhat shorter legs and shorter arms for her torso length. So she just doesn't have that ability to extend and drop her butt behind the seat. She physically has a hard time doing it. When she manages to pull it off, she has ZERO room for error, and it's not a stable position for her. With a dropper post, she doesn't have to worry about getting behind the seat so much, because with the seat lower, she can still drop her center of gravity when she needs to.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

jcd46 said:


> The point is not really "behind" but "low". So, when you guys drop your posts, you do go back but depending on the steepness of the descent?


Sort of. It's not really going back as much as it's the bike rotating beneath you around it's BB, if that make sense. Your torso's position in relation to the BB won't really change forward or back. The patterning would really mimic what Lee's doing on the RipRow. Notice he moves the bike beneath him.

A dropper gets the saddle out of your way so you can get lower easier. Imagine Lee raising the saddle to normal heights and pulling of the same exact movement. :eekster: It's not going to happen. So what he'd have to do is straighten his legs more to make room, while still hinging at the waist, to get clearance between his saddle and the family jewels. That's what the XC-er is doing in the pic above.

Look at the pics below of Aaron Gwin with his saddle low. He's not back at all, even though the saddle is right under his belly button.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

I don't know how yalls anatomy works, but getting back makes I get low. Balls behind the seat puts me low. 

What I originally wanted to say is balls dragging on the tire, but that's on the extreme. Sometimes that's what it takes to low speed send a big drop. 

When I am "back" for s big if I were to come forward. I would hit my stomach into the back of the seat. 

If I was back for an object like in the picture or a hard turn, I am maybe 2-3 inches lower than seated position, AND back of course. 

Only Lowering the seat does not get you in the right position. Your body would be too far forward centered over the bike. You could still go OTB or take a stem cap to the pelvis with a nice impact into a big root or rock.

When I am rolling big stuff, the seat may be even with my sternum and I am hanging off the back. Sending it may not be an option. On some trails with a turn and exposure. 

Sorry I lost the message in Semantics....that's why this cat needs to stop shopping to fix his skills and just go follow some folks over "obstacles". In our city, there are tons of expert riders that would spend the time with you at no charge. 

Internet videos are great, but watching correct form doesn't mean you can replicate it. You can video yourself in slow mo with the iPhone if you have no one. Its a lot like lifting weights, you can't just watch Olympic lifters and then go squat with good form. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Good stuff Gents! Probably the best explanations I've seen on the many dropper posts threads we have laying around. It seemed (to me) they are always focused on "behind" vs. "low", as I asked earlier. 

Sorry OP, didn't mean to Hijack your thread! :thumbsup:


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Yes, beginners should suffer with shitty equipment so the can suffer and get scraped up.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Travis Bickle said:


> Yes, beginners should suffer with shitty equipment so the can suffer and get scraped up.


Rigid seatpost is shitty equipment?

Damn, how do enve, Ritchie and Thompson get away with this?!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2017)

Your bike is better than the best bike available in 1980 and guys were riding this type of stuff back then. Without repeating the previous advice, I'd recommend learning to climb stairs, trying different air pressures and bowing your legs to get around the seat. I ride a Brooks B-17 and can clear that no worries.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Fairbanks007 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Someone, somewhere, at one time or another, has done something like this for nearly all of us. Today it was my turn, someday it'll be guitarguy's turn.


But boy I've got a long way to go before I can give anyone advice on this topic! ha!!

:thumbsup:


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

jcd46 said:


> Good stuff Gents! Probably the best explanations I've seen on the many dropper posts threads we have laying around. It seemed (to me) they are always focused on "behind" vs. "low", as I asked earlier.
> 
> Sorry OP, didn't mean to Hijack your thread! :thumbsup:


Definitely! These photos and explanations of low vs back have been super interesting to me as well. I was playing around in my driveway last night just trying to lean the bike as far as I could left and right and move my weight front and back and stuff. Just messing around seeing how far I could lean and move. Turns out further than I would've thought without falling over! Lowering the seat first helped.

As far as back vs low when going down a descent...it kind of feels like I'm pushing the bike out in front of me as I go down. Pointing it down the hill. I guess that kind of is another way to say the same thing as getting back and low happens automatically if you point the bike down the hill!



FJSnoozer said:


> that's why this cat needs to stop shopping to fix his skills


Dude c'mon...I don't know how many times I have to say that this isn't what I'm trying to do. Not really sure why you seem to be so fixated on it to call me out on it 2-3 times. I've clearly spelled out repeatedly: I realize just buying parts is not going to automatically make me a better rider. I don't know how much clearer I can be to stopped getting jabbed lol.

But it's still interesting to rap about technology as well as technique. It's an internet forum after all. And I'm an engineer so the mechanics of how this stuff works and what it can do is interesting to me.

I'm also a professional musician so put some of the stuff people have said in this thread in that context:

Bikes...a cheap Mexican guitar will not be as "plush" or as fun to play as a $2500 high end model. I can play both just fine because I'm a good player. The expensive model won't make the beginner a great player. You need to practice.

Upgrades like fork/tires/etc...changing pickups on that cheap guitar won't make it play like the high end model, it's also like putting lipstick on a pig. But locking tuners will help the guitar stay in tune and are cheap to install. Good cables can help eliminate hum. These things won't make you a better player. But it might make that guitar it sound a little better. If that makes you like it more and want to play it more...go for it. Right?

Stems/saddle/grips...setup is important just like a guitar. The action, your strap length, the string gauge, etc. All these things can/should be tuned to your liking.

Extras e.g. the dropper post, full suspension...this would be akin to toys like pedals, a better quality amp maybe with distortion built in, etc. None of this crap is going to make you John Mayer overnight. But it's cool. Distortion makes it easier to get sustain, but it also covers up mistakes. If you can't play that chord or riff clean then you can't play it, and sustain is in your hands. Tools like a metronome, online tabs, and youtube lessons make it easier to practice certain techniques, but you won't learn just from watching someone else do it. Go take a lesson. Although you'd be hard pressed to find one for free. Maybe now I owe someone a free lesson to pay it forward from my lesson from Fairbanks.

Point being...I understand that riding and practicing is what's going to make me better. Not buying stuff. But the stuff is still kinda cool, and it certainly can be helpful in learning certain things.

Clear enough? :thumbsup:


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Forster said:


> Your bike is better than the best bike available in 1980 and guys were riding this type of stuff back then. Without repeating the previous advice, I'd recommend learning to climb stairs, trying different air pressures and bowing your legs to get around the seat. I ride a Brooks B-17 and can clear that no worries.


Funny that you mention stairs...there is like a commercial area with lots of buildings like 5 mins from my house, and there is a small set of 3 stairs there that sort of connect 2 wide open parking lot areas. I am going to start there for working on climbing stairs! It's a perfect place to start.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

guitarguy said:


> Bikes...a cheap Mexican guitar will not be as "plush" or as fun to play as a $2500 high end model. I can play both just fine because I'm a good player. The expensive model won't make the beginner a great player. You need to practice.
> 
> Upgrades like fork/tires/etc...changing pickups on that cheap guitar won't make it play like the high end model, it's also like putting lipstick on a pig. But locking tuners will help the guitar stay in tune and are cheap to install. Good cables can help eliminate hum. These things won't make you a better player. But it might make that guitar it sound a little better. If that makes you like it more and want to play it more...go for it. Right?
> 
> ...


Excellent analogies.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

guitarguy said:


> Definitely! These photos and explanations of low vs back have been super interesting to me as well. I was playing around in my driveway last night just trying to lean the bike as far as I could left and right and move my weight front and back and stuff. Just messing around seeing how far I could lean and move. Turns out further than I would've thought without falling over! Lowering the seat first helped.
> 
> As far as back vs low when going down a descent...it kind of feels like I'm pushing the bike out in front of me as I go down. Pointing it down the hill. I guess that kind of is another way to say the same thing as getting back and low happens automatically if you point the bike down the hill!


Those basic things are excellent little drills to play with when you're first getting a feeling for your bike.

Watch some vids of skilled riders and watch how the rider just seems to float and the bike does all kinds of stuff underneath the rider. They're using all that stuff you just played around with in your driveway. Brandon Semenuk, for example, does smooth better than just about anyone right now. This is an oldie but a goodie.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Harold said:


> Those basic things are excellent little drills to play with when you're first getting a feeling for your bike.
> 
> Watch some vids of skilled riders and watch how the rider just seems to float and the bike does all kinds of stuff underneath the rider. They're using all that stuff you just played around with in your driveway. Brandon Semenuk, for example, does smooth better than just about anyone right now. This is an oldie but a goodie.


Thanks a lot Harold,
now my skills level is a tidbit better,
well after i get 
the music
the bike
the trail
wich bike comes with air bags for my practice run ?


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Thank God I don't have to ride bikes from the 80s and 90s, they are crap compared to what I have now.

I have a rigid post, on my cross bike.

A newb is gonna benefit the most from decent geometry, short stem, and a dropper, much more than some pro, or an experienced rider.

I saw a skills clinic for little kids the other day, and that made me smile.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Well, I put into practice some of these suggestions today. I realized I'm in the habit of hugging my saddle between my thighs (man, that sounds awful lol) I did have a bit of hard time getting "low" behind the seat, but I was picturing the video with the still bike, and the adjustment is constant. I will keep working on it, sometimes it felt as the bike was going away from me. I did it on not very steep descents just to practice, I have to admit it felt odd, but I'll get there. 

The hugging the saddle part, has become a habit and makes feel more in control, I have heard about this before in the forums. Any thoughts on that?


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## sinfony78 (Dec 2, 2012)

if it feels like the bike is getting away from you, then i think it's because you're getting too far behind the saddle. read my earlier post on page 1, where i said to focus more on getting "low" (bend at hips, chin over stem) rather than "back". getting too far back, esp. when it's not steep, means you're not balanced and centered over the bike.

another way to think about it is you want your weight directly in the middle of both tires. the steeper the terrain (lower your front tire), the further behind the saddle you need to be. same idea for climbing steep grades, you want to be up closer to the nose of the saddle. when descending, if you're too far back, you won't be able to control and steer the bike since there will be no weight on your front tire. that might be the feeling you're getting. it's instinct to want to get far back, but fight it and you'll feel so much more control when you're perfectly balanced


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

jcd46 said:


> I realized I'm in the habit of hugging my saddle between my thighs (man, that sounds awful lol)


Giggity! All Right!


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

sinfony78 said:


> if it feels like the bike is getting away from you, then i think it's because you're getting too far behind the saddle. read my earlier post on page 1, where i said to focus more on getting "low" (bend at hips, chin over stem) rather than "back". getting too far back, esp. when it's not steep, means you're not balanced and centered over the bike.
> 
> another way to think about it is you want your weight directly in the middle of both tires. the steeper the terrain (lower your front tire), the further behind the saddle you need to be. same idea for climbing steep grades, you want to be up closer to the nose of the saddle. when descending, if you're too far back, you won't be able to control and steer the bike since there will be no weight on your front tire. that might be the feeling you're getting. it's instinct to want to get far back, but fight it and you'll feel so much more control when you're perfectly balanced


Thanks a lot sinfony78, that makes sense. If I can get a ride in tomorrow, I'll change my approach.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Battery said:


> Giggity! All Right!


"you must spread more reputation blah blah" LOL!


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

All hugging the saddle with your thighs does is give a false sense of security, let the bike float underneath you.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jcd46 said:


> The hugging the saddle part, has become a habit and makes feel more in control, I have heard about this before in the forums. Any thoughts on that?


Hugging the saddle really isn't all that useful. It can definitely be detrimental, especially if you're in rough terrain, that saddle is going to buck you around and the bike will control you instead of you controlling the bike.

It's certainly useful to be aware of where the saddle is, so touching it lightly isn't a big deal, but if you're letting the bike pivot forward and backward as the terrain changes, or from side to side as you're turning, hugging that saddle really limits the range of motion available to you. If you're in a really aggressive corner where you've got that outside pedal dropped and weighted, you're going to want to curl your inside leg over the top tube of the bike so you can rotate your body (point your body where you want to go, point your butt to the outside of the corner). While that may be beyond where you are now, it's what you're really building to. Hugging the saddle won't let you do that at all.

Here's an example of a guy doing it with seat up. He has to work around the seat, but the idea is the same. He might be touching the seat, but he's definitely not hugging it.









Here's a good example with a lower seat. Same basic position, seat down lets her get her body farther outside the centerline of the bike, and allows a more aggressive lean.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks Harold, I realized today I tend to do that going down. Work in progress, but this has been a very helpful thread.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Look around for videos on how to execute a hip hinge. Weight lifting videos will work. That's essentially what you want to be doing on the bike, only with your feet on the pedals instead of parallel. One thing I like to do on the road or on a trainer is going into attack position and hovering my hands over the bars. If you fall forward or back, you need to adjust a bit to get your weight evenly distributed. Like sinfony78 was saying earlier, getting your torso down so your head is nearer to the bar and your back is flat is a good practice. Weight always down into the BB.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Anyone here just let go of the handles?
When i know a trail and it is straigh enough i kind of make large rounds with my thumbs and fingers to avoid the shakes from a garden of rocks/roots on a downhill. My 2 hands are more loosely touching the bars than holding on the bars.
A bit like Harold mention (( float while the bike moves ))


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## RonSonic (Jan 8, 2005)

33red said:


> Anyone here just let go of the handles?
> When i know a trail and it is straigh enough i kind of make large rounds with my thumbs and fingers to avoid the shakes from a garden of rocks/roots on a downhill. My 2 hands are more loosely touching the bars than holding on the bars.
> A bit like Harold mention (( float while the bike moves ))


My thumbs are a bit rotted from arthritis so for comfort in situations like you describe, just motoring along, I'll have my thumbs over the grip. Then my hands are just resting on top. Otherwise, if it's bumpy enough to bounce a hand off the bars, then a light grip like you're talking about.

Let the bike have it's head, as they say of a horse. Momentum and the innate stability of the machine will carry you through a lot of stuff.


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

*2nd update: new fork, more riding!*

Back with an update on some of this stuff after 2 rides this weekend!

Picked up the bike on Saturday from LBS ready to go with the Raidon fork. Literally went straight to the trail from the shop for a quick 1 hour ride. Immediately noticed a difference in the front end weight lessened a bit and a smoother ride overall, even at this particular trail which is quite smooth and flowy&#8230;hardly anything technical and not super bumpy or rooty at all. This was also with the shock pressure set based on my weight by LBS. They didn't have a lot of time so they set me up quick and I was on my way.

Saturday after the ride I spent some time on setup. Used a zip tie and set the sag to about 20% and also switched out from my current setup with the 80mm stem down to the 60mm stem. I had the rebound damping set basically right in the middle as a starting point.

Enter my Sunday ride (at Stoney Creek for anyone local) with the new setup. This trail was fun&#8230;definitely a step up in difficulty from the other 2 trails I've been getting my feet wet with. The climbs were bumpier and steeper than anything I'd seen, and descents like the original one I posted about that I had trouble with, were a dime a dozen.

First off gear and setup wise&#8230;I have to say that compared to what I had before, this Raidon fork is just awesome. What a drastic difference!! Seriously this feels like a new bike. No more jackhammering my hands when riding through bumpy terrain. Flying down hills over loose rocks and that kinda stuff&#8230;it just glides over everything it hits. Absolutely loving it! With the sag set properly it was even smoother than the first time out. Stem wise&#8230;60mm seems to be perfect too. I didn't have problems with the front end lifting going uphill, and my weight just felt balanced and comfortable. In fact, this bike was never as comfortable or fun to ride as it was on Sunday. It just felt great on all levels. It was like&#8230;wow&#8230;THIS is what I've been looking for. Everything seemed to just click. Couldn't be happier here.

Ride wise, I have to again shout out to Fairbanks for taking the time to ride with me in tow again. Not only did he educate me on the best place to park and get to the trail, but following him through what was the most technical stuff I've ridden inspired my confidence in a big way and allowed me to really push myself and ride harder and faster than I ever have before! As he led the way through this stuff at about half or 2/3 speed to let me keep up, I was able to follow his lines through the roots and the twisty climbs, know when to carry speed and when to slow up, know when to "keep right!" to avoid a trail feature that was a little out of my ability to tackle right then, tackle a rock garden (made it through twice after one fail) that was looooonng and bumpy, and I could probably go on listing things. By the end I was totally gassed and about out of water. It was awesome! And I'm considering trying a hydration pack instead of a bottle here at some point.

Before we hit the trail, we also spent some time in the skills park. I got comfortable hitting a drop that's about the same height (maybe slightly taller, and also lands on a very slight downhill) as the one I originally posted about. Next time I hit that trail, I will be going focused on the objective to session that drop. At this point I know I can do it and I just have to get past the mental block and fear of landing on that larger downward slope. We also tackled a raised bridge type thing with a ramp down on the end that was steeper than anything I've went over thus far too. Got my weight back and tried it a few times until it was nothing. Definitely a good experience.

People have said in this thread that riding with someone better than you is the best way to learn. Well I have to say to any other beginners reading this, that this statement could not be more true! I learn more in an hour on the trail with Fairbanks than I would in 10 hours of combined watching YouTube, reading this forum, and riding on my own. Can't wait for the next ride! This is one addicting sport guys.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Glad you had a great time. I was glad to be able to get out on a ride with my wife yesterday. I've been able to get out and ride lately, but she has not, because the weather and her work schedule have not been cooperating. So we kept the trail difficulty and the climbing down a bit. Still got a good ride that got our blood flowing and gave a little bit of a burn in the legs. Also some fun downhill sections.

WRT setting up your suspension, it might be useful to spend a little more time fiddling. Take the rebound for example. It can be helpful for you to ride a short section of trail with the knob at both extremes, as well as a couple spots between, so you have an idea what it feels like. It may help you to decide on small adjustments compared to where you have it set now.

I'm a big hydration pack fan. Some here are bottle fans. I use bottles, too, but as supplements to my pack. Usually if I want to have a drink mix (energy and/or electrolytes) so I can avoid putting it in my hydration pack. I've been using an Osprey Talon 22 (not really a riding pack, but a general daypack) for many years. I recently replaced it with an EVOC Stage 18. I am really liking the EVOC, but it's an expensive pack, and it doesn't come with a bladder (I have plenty, so that's not a concern for me). My wife has a smaller Osprey (a 14L mtb-specific model which I don't recall), and I like that one better than the Talon. The weakness of the Talon is that the stuff inside flops around too much because the pack is so light and its cinch straps don't firm things up enough. That's pretty important for a hydration pack, honestly. Another thing I've insisted upon for a long time is a wide hip belt. Not just a webbing strap. Something wider that wraps around your hips and actually supports most of the weight of the pack. Many of the smaller capacity packs have the wimpy webbing. But it's not enough, IMO. The water is the heaviest stuff you carry, so the overall pack weight isn't all that much different from a small pack to a larger one.



guitarguy said:


> People have said in this thread that riding with someone better than you is the best way to learn. Well I have to say to any other beginners reading this, that this statement could not be more true! I learn more in an hour on the trail with Fairbanks than I would in 10 hours of combined watching YouTube, reading this forum, and riding on my own. Can't wait for the next ride! This is one addicting sport guys.


I'm not necessarily sure if it's the best way to learn, but it does work well for some. It's how most started. I started that way about 18yrs ago. If coaching was a thing back then, I probably could have learned some things faster, but it wasn't even an option then. Not in Ohio, anyway.


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

guitarguy said:


> I know you all were on the edge of your seats, so here's an update after a great ride yesterday!
> 
> Thanks to this guy ^ giving me some great coaching and spending time #1 waiting for me to catch up after he effortlessly lost me on the trail haha, and then #2 demonstrating techniques and helping me session a bunch of stuff, I was able to tackle every obstacle that I posted about! :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Awesome! Sounds like you're on it. Trail experience > Internet experience. And you're right, finding out what type of beer Fairbanks drinks is a good next step. My guess is he'll reciprocate next time.

Welcome to the sickness. It's pretty f'ing cool.


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

guitarguy said:


> Yessir, you did!
> 
> But when we stopped and I lowered the seat, it really seemed to help on some of these obstacles. Definitely made me more comfortable and confident going down that hill and rolling off that drop.
> 
> I know it's not old school...but man it would've been super convenient to be able to adjust without having to stop, get off the bike, lower the seat, do the obstacle, stop, get off the bike, raise the seat, and continue the ride!


Just ride your bike at the cross country level for your post. Every picture you've posted are of obstacles that are normal xc type stuff.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Ken in KC said:


> Awesome! Sounds like you're on it. Trail experience > Internet experience. And you're right, finding out what type of beer Fairbanks drinks is a good next step. My guess is he'll reciprocate next time.
> 
> Welcome to the sickness. It's pretty f'ing cool.


I think we are at Premium Scotch by now, forget the beer! 

Great report, congrats OP!


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

*Quick progress update!*

Just wanted to give you guys a quick update...had a great ride yesterday!

Went to this trail I talked about in the OP focused on the specific goal of making myself hop off that drop...and...did it! Sessioned it several times in a row until I felt pretty comfortable, and then on lap 2, went right over without even stopping or taking any extra time to set it up. Felt so great! :thumbsup:

The only issue I had was dropping onto this downward slope that was dry and loose...I felt myself skidding and barely able to keep control under braking. Almost bit it a couple times. But I know what I need to do: keep my head up and look further out and just carry a little more speed. This just seemed HARD to do when landing like this...naturally my eyes were focusing on the front wheel and landing the bike which I already know is a mistake I'm making and it's causing me to brake harder and slow down more than I really need to. If I would just keep my head up and focus on the trail further out I could carry more speed, which would also help me get up the sandy hill coming back up to the main part of the trail too. All in all though...progress!!

I also find myself, since following Fairbanks through stuff at the more difficult course, riding faster and leaning the bike more in corners, and braking less. Overall since the last time I was at this course, I feel like I've definitely made noticeable improvements in my riding!

Also bike setup wise I'm still loving this Raidon fork and the shorter 60mm stem. I think this setup is going to stay around a while!


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Great to hear you are progressing your skillset! I need to get my bike out and ride some more myself. Just wait until you can keep up with the pack. It made me feel great that I can keep up with my family on rides!


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## guitarguy (Jul 26, 2017)

Battery said:


> Great to hear you are progressing your skillset! I need to get my bike out and ride some more myself. Just wait until you can keep up with the pack. It made me feel great that I can keep up with my family on rides!


Ya it's been great...I've been pretty much riding 2 X per week and just trying to steadily improve and as I'm gaining experience it's working. Can't ask for much more!

I have noticed I've been riding faster in the corners and have even been getting a small amount of rear tire skid (no brakes) from time to time...so before long it might be time to consider upgrading tires.

From some quick research I was thinking an Ardent 2.25 in the back and a 2.3 DHR2 in the front might be a good combo....but still need to figure out what will be best for Michigan riding...


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

guitarguy said:


> Ya it's been great...I've been pretty much riding 2 X per week and just trying to steadily improve and as I'm gaining experience it's working. Can't ask for much more!
> 
> I have noticed I've been riding faster in the corners and have even been getting a small amount of rear tire skid (no brakes) from time to time...so before long it might be time to consider upgrading tires.
> 
> From some quick research I was thinking an Ardent 2.25 in the back and a 2.3 DHR2 in the front might be a good combo....but still need to figure out what will be best for Michigan riding...


Tire advice is tough to gauge because so much depends on your local trails. Rather than ask here, asking your local riders will get you more specific to which brand will work best.

I will say that you should get the highest volume you can that will fit in your frame and fork. Until you start racing, there's no reason to ride skinnier tires. Same size front and back unless there are physical limitations.

Keep on enjoying the ride.

Ken


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## BikeMrown (May 26, 2017)

s0ckeyeus said:


> .


Just wanted to come back and say that this video had a dramatic impact on my recent progression. I had really been struggling with some very steep halfpipe-like dips on some trails (almost flipping over the front and such). This rowing technique created instant change. I had been sitting back and pulling up while trying to absorb she dramatic grade changes with my leg and it just wasn't working. Being centered, low, and aggressively rowing the bars changed everything. Now I'm flying through sets of obstacles that were previously treacherous for me. Thanks!


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