# You suck at brazing!



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I'm moving to a new studio/workshop for my personal stuff with a couple others in Hunters Point in SF. Cool place. Accross the street is J.P. Morgan. An SF legend. He gave us a tour of his shop. The star of the show was this Rickman Honda chassis. Crazy fillets. OMFG!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pvdwiki/sets/72157623652541408/


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

pvd said:


> I'm moving to a new studio/workshop for my personal stuff with a couple others in Hunters Point in SF. Cool place. Accross the street is J.P. Morgan. An SF legend. He gave us a tour of his shop. The star of the show was this Rickman Honda chassis. Crazy fillets. OMFG!
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/pvdwiki/sets/72157623652541408/


If those are fillet brazes, I am not impressed. They look "cold."

Do you really think this:









Is as good as or better than this?









Even as welds they are clunky.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Pete,

Could you elaborate a bit....Is that a nickel plated MC frame. I notice you take wonderful detail pictures but one of the whole MC frame to give us an overall idea would be nice.

I have a feeling but have not confirmed that many of these ol timers that "bronze welded" mc frames used a spec of rod that is somewhat different than today. Maybe higher in Cu content or something but it is a bit difficult to get that kind of bead with Low fuming bronze of typical designations.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

shiggy said:


> If those are fillet brazes, I am not impressed.


Those fillets were probably laid down in less than 5 minutes per joint including prep. Old school english brazing is really sick. I'm far more impressed by the joints on the Rickman over the 'bicycle' brazes you posted. The Rickman is the real deal.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

dbohemian said:


> Is that a nickel plated MC frame..


I belive so, or it's a similar coating.



dbohemian said:


> I notice you take wonderful detail pictures but one of the whole MC frame to give us an overall idea would be nice.


Yeah, I rarely take whole bike or frame pics because it's so hard to do without a proper backdrop. I tend to focus on details. The chassis looks similar to most cradle frames.



dbohemian said:


> I have a feeling but have not confirmed that many of these ol timers that "bronze welded" mc frames used a spec of rod that is somewhat different than today. Maybe higher in Cu content or something but it is a bit difficult to get that kind of bead with Low fuming bronze of typical designations.


It could be, but you have to admit that those joints took some serious skill. I'm sure they were using flux and rod that would be illegal to sell these days.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Curtis bikes has some very unique fillets... stunning. At one point they had some moto frame pics up as well.


-Schmitty-


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

pvd said:


> Those fillets were probably laid down in less than 5 minutes per joint including prep. Old school english brazing is really sick. I'm far more impressed by the joints on the Rickman over the 'bicycle' brazes you posted. The Rickman is the real deal.


*yawn*


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

It's true, PVD. I have never welded or brazed or mitered anything. I did, however, make a nice clock in high school woodshop.


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

I'm not impressed by the craters at the stops or the general inconsistency of the bead. If I did that at work, I'd be grinding it out and doing it over.


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

*Brompton Fillets*

One of the most impressive things I saw at NAHBS was the fillets on the Brompton folders. They had a video going of the brazer and he worked hot and fast! Brazed in the jig that was mounted on something that allowed ball-in-socket type movement.

-Joel


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

I thought the brazed stainless Moulton was impressive.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

shiggy said:


> I thought the brazed stainless Moulton was impressive.


I was told recently by a moulton fan that this particular bike retails out at 17k pounds or near 25k dollars.......should be impressed.

And people think I am expensive....jeez


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## HomeGrownSS (Jan 18, 2006)

Clockwork Bikes said:


> One of the most impressive things I saw at NAHBS was the fillets on the Brompton folders. They had a video going of the brazer and he worked hot and fast! Brazed in the jig that was mounted on something that allowed ball-in-socket type movement.
> 
> -Joel


bromptons are fantastic bikes. i worked at one of the top US brommie dealers for many years. a really great company to work with.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

shiggy said:


> I thought the brazed stainless Moulton was impressive.
> View attachment 529187


Sweet pic, any of the entire bike?


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

crux said:


> Sweet pic, any of the entire bike?










Yes, it is a show bike and has been in the Moulton IB booth for 3 straight years


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## Roadsters (Jul 7, 2008)

Rickman frames were built with Reynolds 531 tubing. Their most famous bike was a cafe racer known as the Rickman Metisse. Here's a search for more about them: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22rickman+metisse%22+reynolds


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## Roadsters (Jul 7, 2008)

Found a thread with more Rickman Metisse pictures.


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## Roadsters (Jul 7, 2008)

Rickman Motorcycles is still in business. Their site's price list is here. Their page on Wikipedia is here.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Vlad said:


> It's true, PVD. I have never welded or brazed or mitered anything. I did, however, make a nice clock in high school woodshop.


Just as well, or you would never understand the concept of time, or even what a clock was.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

i remember that guy. He used to build some cool full-sus frames back in the stone ages. if i did those i would give myself a D. *if* they are brass fillets. to me they look like wire feed Aluminum beads {i worked many, many hours in an Al. fab shop....} esp. the start/stop puddle. if they are brass fillets they are WAY too cold - the edges are too sharp & create a stress riser right in the HAZ. as someone said, check out Curtis bikes. that's how you do it. I think the UK moto builders {from what i have seen} do a few things to achive the "stack o' dimes" look: no paste flux, gas fluxer only, and, use big rod - likely 1/8". this way you can dump enough filler into a puddle to create a "dam" for the next big "dime". try it out - with thick tubing it's a breeze. - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.


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## NorseRider (Feb 9, 2004)

There's a few pictures of braze welding (which is what the brits call it, I believe) in this set I took a few years back: http://www.flickr.com/photos/planetjohnsen/sets/72157594367541671/ There's also a few here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/planetjohnsen/sets/72157623320809909/ -And I'll make sure to snap a few after easter when motorcycle framebuilder Colin Taylor is heading back to Oslo. The key elements here are (as far as I've analyzed it) (and this goes back to your question on the fb-list to, Maestro Bohm): Gasfluxer. Rod size depending on wall thickness. They go in deeper in the crotch with a smaller flame. The braze is generally smaller than the fillets of the bicycle world. Preheat, go deep in, melt, let the filler draw itself a tiny bit along the crotch, dab filler, let the filler draw itself a tiny bit along the crotch and so on. Not very hard to do. But rather hard to master when one wants uniform brazes in hard to get to places and/or differences in wall thicknesses.

Truls


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

NorseRider said:


> There's a few pictures of braze welding (which is what the brits call it, I believe) in this set I took a few years back: http://www.flickr.com/photos/planetjohnsen/sets/72157594367541671/ There's also a few here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/planetjohnsen/sets/72157623320809909/ -And I'll make sure to snap a few after easter when motorcycle framebuilder Colin Taylor is heading back to Oslo. The key elements here are (as far as I've analyzed it) (and this goes back to your question on the fb-list to, Maestro Bohm): Gasfluxer. Rod size depending on wall thickness. They go in deeper in the crotch with a smaller flame. The braze is generally smaller than the fillets of the bicycle world. Preheat, go deep in, melt, let the filler draw itself a tiny bit along the crotch, dab filler, let the filler draw itself a tiny bit along the crotch and so on. Not very hard to do. But rather hard to master when one wants uniform brazes in hard to get to places and/or differences in wall thicknesses.
> 
> Truls


That pretty much describes good technique for bicycles, too. Fillet size should be appropriate to the tubing diameter and the smaller tube joins that may be on a bike would look very similar to these.

The Norse joins look good and a heck of a lot better than the Rickman, functionally and aesthetically.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

Where, exactly, are you PVD? I'm in SF for the weekend, and would love to swing by briefly.


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## shovelon (Mar 16, 2006)

Those craters at the stops were left by a tig welder. Probably Everdure was used. Like this.


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## NorseRider (Feb 9, 2004)

What are you referring to, shovelon? As far as I know, nothing in this thread is done with a tig welder.

Truls


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## shovelon (Mar 16, 2006)

NorseRider said:


> What are you referring to, shovelon? As far as I know, nothing in this thread is done with a tig welder.
> 
> Truls


These


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

shovelon said:


> These...


By the company's own site descriptions, those are "bronze welded" (brazed) steel, not TIG. Yes, you can get those "pits" with brazing.


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## shovelon (Mar 16, 2006)

Craters like those are criminal. Still looks like pedal slammed with a Tig.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

here is a freshie straight out of the dunktank yesterday - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.


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## shovelon (Mar 16, 2006)

That's clean work Steve.:thumbsup:


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

shovelon said:


> Craters like those are criminal. Still looks like pedal slammed with a Tig.


From Norse's link. Brazed. Craters.


__
https://flic.kr/p/292913795


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## NorseRider (Feb 9, 2004)

Right. Not my work, btw.

T


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## shovelon (Mar 16, 2006)

*Not gas brazed, but tig brazed with nasty craters.*



sean salach said:


> From Norse's link. Brazed. Craters.
> 
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/292913795


That was definately tig brazed with everdure(silicone bronze). Even he says that he did not do it, but the frame shop did. You can also tig braze using sil-floss and staysilv. On occasion I weld steel screws to copper buss bars with straight copper, and they look just like these.









There is just no way IMHO that a gas torch would leave craters like that.

Terry


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Shovelon,

I am sorry but your assumption is incorrect. This is brazed joinery. You are correct in your statements concerning TIG welding.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

shovelon said:


> That was definately tig brazed with everdure(silicone bronze). Even he says that he did not do it, but the frame shop did. You can also tig braze using sil-floss and staysilv. On occasion I weld steel screws to copper buss bars with straight copper, and they look just like these.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know not of what you speak regarding gas brazing.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

I along with Cycle Design have a new Low Fuming Bronze and flux coming soon.

A little test today....

Bronze is really high quality and the flux is farking awesome!



















Oh, BTW Pete.....I did this with only a sand blast for prep and completed in about 2 minutes (ran as fast as I could)


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

dbohemian said:


> I along with Cycle Design have a new Low Fuming Bronze and flux coming soon.
> 
> A little test today....
> 
> ...


Nice!


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Brazing to me is just akin to gluing the frame together, albeit at temperature.

It was cute 20 years ago. Not so enamored these days, but I do appreciate the skill.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Thylacine said:


> Brazing to me is just akin to gluing the frame together, albeit at temperature.
> 
> It was cute 20 years ago. Not so enamored these days, but I do appreciate the skill.


They all have their place. I will say though that I feel that gas welding and brazing are being somewhat diminished by a group of people who think that TIG welding is all that but really have no knowledge of all processes and when to use what.

Just like one material is not the best choice for all parts of the bike, one welding process is not either. Brazed filleted joints have shown themselves in engineering literature to have greater fatigue resistance than TIG joints and the fillet is still an absolute standard engineering practice when designing metal or plastic parts.

I don't want to divert too far from the topic but I have to disagree.. It is not cute, it still is absolutely viable and useful.


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

*Who does your welding for you?*



Thylacine said:


> Brazing to me is just akin to gluing the frame together, albeit at temperature.
> 
> It was cute 20 years ago. Not so enamored these days, but I do appreciate the skill.


Who does your welding for you?


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