# Magicshine Lights Announcement



## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

To Our Valued Geomangear Customers,

Geomangear temporarily has stopped selling Magicshine lightsets due to our concerns regarding the safety, quality, and performance of Magicshine's lithium-ion battery packs sold by Geomangear between July 2009 and November 2010. We have determined that these Magicshine battery packs do not meet Geomangear's high expectations regarding product safety, quality, and performance. We have notified both the manufacturer of Magicshine lightsets and the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission that Geomangear intends to voluntarily recall all Magicshine battery packs sold by Geomangear.

We are actively working with the Safety Commission, outside engineering consultants, and a new battery pack supplier to evaluate product recall options for our customers. Geomangear will provide recall information and instructions directly to our affected customers after our final corrective action plan has been approved by the Safety Commission.

If you bought a Magicshine lightset from us between June 2009 and November 2010, please discontinue using your lightset until we are able to provide you with an upgraded replacement battery pack or another recall remedy. Despite our best efforts, this process will take some time, and we ask for your patience. You can rest assured that Geomangear has taken, and will continue to take, appropriate steps to protect the safety of our customers, and we will stand behind our products. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you and appreciate your continued loyalty and support during this unprecedented situation our company is facing.

Thanks!!
Geoman
Geomangear.com

www.geomangear.com


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

Thanks!!!


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

Ouch...that's got to hurt. Thanks for taking care of us.


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## JordyB (Oct 26, 2007)

Nice, keep up the good work!


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## deadwrong666 (Aug 5, 2009)

yEESH, I was one click away from buying one the day before this happened.....thank gawd i missed out.

Will watch for Geoman in the future though........


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

Thank you for being a stand up MTBR retailer. I appreciate it and hope that you continue to search for the best cost to performance lights we can buy.

Boys n girls - this is the responsible thing to do when you feel your product isn't working out.


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## elsanto (Apr 27, 2007)

any further details on the issue? Is it when charging or using? I for one love my magishine!


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## ThumperGary (Oct 3, 2010)

Ought oh - now I have to tell my wife we can't night ride for a while.....:skep: 

But Thanks for looking out for us Geoman.....you tell me where to send them and off they go. :thumbsup:


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## HawkHogan (Mar 8, 2010)

elsanto said:


> any further details on the issue? Is it when charging or using? I for one love my magishine!


Yeah, if its just while charging i'll charge them up on an AFCI breaker outdoors under supervision.

Don't take away the night rides, it just got dark!


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## ndamico (Nov 8, 2009)

thanks for the update.. i know you suggest to stop using them, but if its my primary light what to do? as was said is the potential problem when charging or when operating the light? i know these things can take time to resolve but i'd prefer to not have to buy another light to use in the interim.

thank you again


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

Thanks for looking out for us, Geoman! I for one will buy a replacement pack from you once things get rolling again. I know this must make a big hit on your bottom line, and I think I speak for everybody here that we all appreciate your not putting dollars before people, as is all too common in this world. 

Thanks for doing the right thing.


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## arrover (Mar 28, 2010)

GeoMan, thanks for the warning email. I hope this gets worked out quickly and you can get your business back on track.

Unfortunately in 45 minutes I'm meeting my riding buddies and I have to give them a copy of the email and tell them how the lights I convinced them to buy aren't safe to use. And the three of us haven't even had a chance to ride with the new lights.......


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

For safety, should we be discharging the batteries all the way?


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## Adim_X (Mar 3, 2010)

Lipo batteries do not like a complete discharge. It is best to store them on 70-80% charge. Complete discharge is one of the factors that makes them swell and become dangerous. That is how my $100 rc cells are to be taken care of.


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## picassomoon (Jun 16, 2009)

Ok, so far this is my understanding of safe handling in terms of these battery packs.


Do not run the battery pack all the way down to zero charge

Do not store the battery pack with less than 70% charge. (Is 100% charge ok? Can the pack be charged until the MS charger goes green and then stored? Should we be sure to top the pack off regularly all year long? How long can you leave the pack lying around before you should give it some charge again?)

Do not leave the battery pack charging unattended.

Store the battery pack in something metal, not in a bag or closet or somewhere that other materials will catch fire if the pack undergoes combustion. (Is it ok to charge the pack in the supplied cloth case with the frame straps, or should it be taken out to charge?)

Do not overcharge the battery pack. Keep an eye on it while charging and get it off the charger when it turns green.

Do not store in extreme conditions, hot or cold. (Is this at all safety related, or more just for the long life of the cells?)

Anything else? Any misinformation there?

My cycling addiction is peaking and with the time change I got the itch to try night riding. Sadly, this Geomangear situation struck at the same time. I didn't want to spend a lot in case I didn't take to riding at night, so I went with a MS 900 unit from an Ebay retailer who advertises on MTBR as well. I figured once Geoman got a better battery solution, I would go to him for a second light if needed and/or for when my battery pack started to die. I got the impression from the threads that the issue was essentially the packs failing to hold charge after only a season of riding or so.

Now, however, the safety issue is all but confirmed by Geoman. I understand his position in this and not being at liberty to freely give details, but it seems like here on MTBR we have had zero first hand accounts, and one second hand account of this fire hazard. I'd like to be able to use my new purchase that just arrived today, but I guess I'm questioning exactly what the extent of the safety concern is with these batteries. It seems like many have used these without problem, and if some simple precautions can lessen the chances of having a problem, then I will go ahead and use the light for now. Anyone who feels knowledgeable about this subject or LiB's in general, please comment and respond. Thanks.


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

picassomoon said:


> Ok, so far this is my understanding of safe handling in terms of these battery packs.
> 
> 
> Do not run the battery pack all the way down to zero charge
> ...


You will have a brighter, safer light if you just trade your MS light in on a Baja Strykr... I just bought one with the trade-up dealio and it's fantastic. Plus they are giving you more on trade-in than if you returned the MS light  PLUS geomangear won't have to take any hit on them either.


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## picassomoon (Jun 16, 2009)

gticlay said:


> You will have a brighter, safer light if you just trade your MS light in on a Baja Strykr... I just bought one with the trade-up dealio and it's fantastic. Plus they are giving you more on trade-in than if you returned the MS light  PLUS geomangear won't have to take any hit on them either.


Well, I didn't get my from Geoman since he had already discontinued. Plus, I have yet to ride a single mile at night, and part of my decision on a MS was that I didn't want to sink too much money (even after discount price levels for the Strykr) into a light set up if I wasn't sure I'd use it enough. I will keep it in mind and hold on to my packaging for sure though.


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

gticlay said:


> You will have a brighter, safer light if you just trade your MS light in on a Baja Strykr... I just bought one with the trade-up dealio and it's fantastic. Plus they are giving you more on trade-in than if you returned the MS light  PLUS geomangear won't have to take any hit on them either.


Troll, Troll,troll, troll, troooooooooollllll!

Please give us you expert proof that the battery pack, which probably uses the same 18650 Li cells as the MS are safer...

Battery pack issues will happen to everyone, Ask Sony about that one, And Dell, Toshiba,Lenovo, and Apple...
http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2006/09/7858.ars


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

wormvine said:


> Troll, Troll,troll, troll, troooooooooollllll!
> 
> Please give us you expert proof that the battery pack, which probably uses the same 18650 Li cells as the MS are safer...
> 
> ...


I take offense to that. I post here all the time. A troll will post something just to start a fight. Oh like your post


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## picassomoon (Jun 16, 2009)

You do seem to have a heck of a lot of posts to be a Baja shill. There was another poster sort of spamming that trade-in deal on the MS threads, but it was only one post per thread so I didn't think it was too bad. Still, I'd like to see if there is any consensus on proper handling precautions since we know human nature will prevail and people will still use their lights until this recall goes through. Also people who ordered from Ebay and DX that won't have the benefit of Geo's recall.

I'm sure Geoman isn't in a position to clarify or specify further and can't give much advice due to liability and all, so we are left to discuss amongst ourselves.


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## odtexas (Oct 2, 2008)

I spend way too much time here :crazy: and I would have to say that gticlay is a decent guy. 
He does like his Strykr and is very free with recommending it, but he does seem to recommend other lights as well when those lights fit the needs of the OP.:thumbsup:



gticlay said:


> Buy a set from EL34 here on the board. Same emitter, better quality.... way better.





gticlay said:


> I'd get a Cygolite. They are pretty darn bulletproof.





gticlay said:


> A great option already came up and that's to buy some of EL34's P7 Marwi conversions or an Amoeba. They are both fantastic units from what I've read here.
> 
> I was also gonna say I bought a Stryker and it's $200 with the trade in program. I think it might literally be bulletproof :lol:





gticlay said:


> The Cygolite series is pretty darn nice quality. I especially like the tridenX. Extremely well built and solid (but not super heavy).


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

gticlay said:


> I take offense to that. I post here all the time. A troll will post something just to start a fight. Oh like your post


Or baseless unproven statements to further an agenda and get a rise...
Maybe I should have called you a spammer. 
I guess you have created a new type. A troll spammer. Should we call you a trammer or a Spoller?

GTi's post is a troll post in every sense. It's just not a remedial as others.


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

wormvine said:


> Or baseless unproven statements to further an agenda and get a rise...
> Maybe I should have called you a spammer.
> I guess you have created a new type. A troll spammer. Should we call you a trammer or a Spoller?
> 
> GTi's post is a troll post in every sense. It's just not a remedial as others.


Oh whatever. A lot of your posts are d!ck anyway I've noticed. Wait, let me guess..... you sell them on ebay or here under a different screen name?

Another good option until things are sorted out is the MTE-15 torch from DX. Just got mine in the mail today and it's every bit as bright as the MS light and you can mount it in several ways, including a $2 bar mount.


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

gticlay said:


> Oh whatever. A lot of your posts are d!ck anyway I've noticed.
> 
> Another good option until things are sorted out is the MTE-15 torch from DX. Just got mine in the mail today and it's every bit as bright as the MS light and you can mount it in several ways, including a $2 bar mount.


"Oh whatever"??? Ha-Ha. I'd be butt hurt too if someone called me out for my trammer (troll+spammer) posts.

Nice back pedal with the "another good option" though:thumbsup:


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## dcc1234 (Nov 5, 2008)

Recall or no recall- I still have to commute home in the dark during the week. And all I have are the 3 magic shines I bought from Geoman last year. (Part of my commute is in the woods and I've been loving the light).

Thankfully, we haven't heard about too many magic shine battery packs exploding- so I'm just going to be careful and keep fingers crossed until such time as recall is put in place.


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

OH and THANKS GEOMANGEAR for the public announcement as well as the email alert I received. :thumbsup: 

Anyone interested in magicshine alternatives can read GTIclay's new thread, MAGICSHINE ALTERNATIVES. LOL...
I am sure he will create it any minute now. And with primary research studies proving how reliable his suggestions are. 
Cmon GTi, Step up! Just copy and paste all the posts you have made in the other Magicshine threads. That should get the ball rolling.


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

I'd rather you give us a link to ur ms store.

The aggressive way you are personally attacking me is a big flag that you have another motive. Did I steal your girl back in middle school or something? Sorry man.

Notice I didn't bash geoman and actually told him good job? That's because he's done a great job. You are all sour grapes and people were asking what they should do since they need a light.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Mine came from The Singletrack Store around November 2009. I will probably just keep an eye on it.. I figure if it hasn't blown up or caught on fire after probably at least 75 charge cycles, it isn't likely to do so now.


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

The best way to look at this is everybody's going to get some damn good battery packs I'm sure at this point they will be over-specked to be not only safe but reliable. way to step up to the plate Geo a lot of small company's would have walked on this one. we still have to remember what we are getting for $90 bucks this is going to really sweeten the pie. sure its going to suck waiting and I imagine a few will be using them but just being careful .

And for all the haters hows that for customer service sure there's going to be the whiners that they cant go riding but there are product recalls EVERYDAY sh#t happens, it too bad it is what we need right now to get that after work ride but it is what it is. 
I personally have 6 lights affected by this recall, and have for the past 2 weeks been looking into alternative batteries to get me thru this, and when I get the new recalled batteries I will have a bunch of back up's
Geo has spoken and we are not in the dark anymore it would be nice if this board could go back to what it is made for and not all the BS the sky is falling sh*t


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## MtbMacgyver (Jan 23, 2007)

I'll probably regret getting in the middle of this, but I will offer up the information I have based on some testing I did over the past week and a half. First, I want to be clear that I have no way to know of the specific issues that prompted Geoman to stop selling the lights and pursue a recall, I can only comment on what I observed in my testing. I also don't have a vested interest in this situation as I personally use my own lights and I do not offer them for sale. 

I have ties to a large local bike club, which includes a fair number of magicshine light users. Based on all the discussion on the forum about magicshine battery issues, I put out a query to the club to find out if many folks were experiencing battery problems. I quickly got a fair number of responses and was "loaned" a number of packs that were experiencing problems.

I opened up the packs and ran them through a couple of cycles while instrumenting the current and voltage of each cell bank. What I found was that the packs were badly out of balance due to what are known as "soft shorts" within the cells. "Soft shorts" cause the cells to self-discharge at a higher rate than normal, which is what throws the pack out of balance. How quickly the pack goes out of balance depend purely on "time" and the extent of the soft short. Number of cycles or how the pack is cared for has little to no effect. This in itself isn't good for the pack, but it doesn't necessarily represent a safety issue. But, I also observed that the protection PCB lets the cells drop down to right below 2V on discharge. That's really below what is safe and can lead to cell damage that can cause a safety issue down the road. 

Based on what I found I decided to check a pack that didn't appear to be having obvious problems. I found that this pack was also out of balance, just not enough to be showing such obvious external problems. So these 2 issues are likely interacting with each other. Normally, the protection PCB should only stop charge or discharge in fairly rare cases as a last ditch safety protection. But in the case of the magicshine packs, the protection PCB is having to shutdown the charge / discharge on a large percentage of packs and is doing so on almost every charge cycle and many of the discharge cycles. That has two implications; first it means that even a few rare failures of the protection PCB have a much higher chance that normal of causing a safety issue with the pack. Second, it means the voltage thresholds for the protection PCB really need to be spot on and that doesn't appear to be true. 

The net is there really isn't anything the end user can do to in terms of how they care for or use the pack to guarantee that a problem won't occur. I say guarantee because, it's true that having an actual problem is probably somewhat rare. But on the other hand, these kinds of actions don't usually happen if there hasn't been some kind of real world problem. The engineer in me would say, follow the advice and stop using the packs. The mountain biker in me says, a lot of folks are going to keep using them, my advice is be really careful where you charge and store them. Problems are more likely while they are charging but can happen at any time.


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

gticlay said:


> I'd rather you give us a link to ur ms store.
> 
> The aggressive way you are personally attacking me is a big flag that you have another motive. Did I steal your girl back in middle school or something? Sorry man.
> 
> Notice I didn't bash geoman and actually told him good job? That's because he's done a great job. You are all sour grapes and people were asking what they should do since they need a light.


Ooohhh you got me... Why is is that in just about every magicshine thread you have a post or 2 suggesting an alternative and nothing else? Hmmmm! I wonder?
And you suggest and deflect that I sell Magicshines? Embarrasing! Let's see, you have many posts touting other lights especially the Stryker models and I have suggested none. 
Even a 10yr old can figure that one out!

Oh and I am waiting for the proof that your suggestions are more reliable than Magicshines. Waiting as always as you deflect...


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

I've got two MS lights, hope this gets resolved soon.

And can the juveniles take their pissing match offline? Thanks.


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## CdaleTony (Jun 21, 2005)

slocaus said:


> I've got two MS lights, hope this gets resolved soon.
> 
> And can the juveniles take their pissing match offline? Thanks.




I concur.

I think I have a "good one" over here, though I dont use it as much as some do.
I'll be in line for an upgraded light system when and if...


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Hi Jim, you will be included with the GeoManGear recall we have obtained customer info for The Singletrack Store customers already. Notification will go out to STS customers shortly via US Safety Commission :thumbsup:



Jim311 said:


> Mine came from The Singletrack Store around November 2009. I will probably just keep an eye on it.. I figure if it hasn't blown up or caught on fire after probably at least 75 charge cycles, it isn't likely to do so now.


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## savagemann (Jan 14, 2008)

Thanks again Geoman.
I now understand why you weren't replying to any threads here on the forums.
I knew that when you did, it would be big.


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

wormvine said:


> Ooohhh you got me... Why is is that in just about every magicshine thread you have a post or 2 suggesting an alternative and nothing else? Hmmmm! I wonder?
> And you suggest and deflect that I sell Magicshines? Embarrasing! Let's see, you have many posts touting other lights especially the Stryker models and I have suggested none.
> Even a 10yr old can figure that one out!
> 
> Oh and I am waiting for the proof that your suggestions are more reliable than Magicshines. Waiting as always as you deflect...


How about this:

My TridenX is going strong for over a year. I've used this light more than any of the others...... maybe 150 charges? It kicks butt. Since it's past warranty, I'm gonna mod it with XML LED's (look at my posts in the DIY).

 - And that's in a pre-school, immature way


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

slocaus said:


> I've got two MS lights, hope this gets resolved soon.
> 
> And can the juveniles take their pissing match offline? Thanks.


I assume you mean me and someone else. I apologize. But I have to defend myself because, well, I'm me and I do that. Sorry. No more posts here after this no matter what anyone says about "gticlay". :thumbsup: Again, sorry slocaus.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Thanks for the support, the GeoManGear team looks forward to getting this taken care of as quickly as possible



savagemann said:


> Thanks again Geoman.
> I now understand why you weren't replying to any threads here on the forums.
> I knew that when you did, it would be big.


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## jkegarch (Oct 9, 2008)

I purchased my light about a year ago. I haven't received any email yet. 

Will all customers be contacted directly?


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

Wow i got mine a couple of weeks ago and i haven't got my email yet either, patience my friend He just announced today that's a big database to he has to get back to. 
Sorry I'm just having a little fun but don't worry Geo seems to have this one under control.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Wow!! GEO, that is way above and beyond the call. I too bought one from GEO and the Singletrack store.

Guess I better dig up the reciepts.

Again GEO, this is above and beyond.

Thx

MB


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

I truly hope GM will get this straightened out but I am certainly not going to hold my breath waiting for the manufacturer to come clean. Even with the cost of a known "safe" battery pack from many of the places already posted its still a good deal. 

Cant wait to buy another MS head on ebay as the prices plummet...


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## EndUser (Jan 13, 2004)

*Thanks GEOMAN*

Thanks for the e-mail I recieved today. I have two MS900 that purchased this summer and I can't say they've been problematic, but I will not use them just the same.

Could you give us an idea how long this might take to get suitable replacement packs?

It's really too bad that this is happened and I wish you the best of luck in getting this resolved as quickly as possible. I predict if your company handles this well and in a timely manner you will gain countless numbers of additional sales. A crisis can turn into a blessing if managed properly.

Again, good luck and I'm look forward to your response.

EndUser


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## Chromagftw (Feb 12, 2009)

*Appreciate the update*

Thanks Geoman, take care of what needs doing. The dust will eventually settle. Those who know do realise its the manufacturer's source of the problem. Good luck!


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## Mike Brown (Mar 12, 2004)

To make sure I understand (and this is NOT a complaint)....
the sudden total battery failure I experienced about 3 weeks ago will not be subject to recall as I bought prior to June 2009? 
Again, not a complaint, just want to make sure before I spend $ at Batteries Plus...been getting by fine with other MS unit and old L&M halogens that get about 45min to an hour out of their batteries....


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## sierrabob (Dec 6, 2009)

GEOMAN said:


> Thanks for the support, the GeoManGear team looks forward to getting this taken care of as quickly as possible


Geoman,

I purchased the MJ-812 Magicshine flashlight (single 18650 cell) from you last year and have used it far more than my Magicshine bike light with battery back. Apparently, you no longer sell this light.

I use this light with the original battery as well as Trustfire 2400 mah cells with PCB circuitry. Is it safe to continue using this light? Thanks

Bob


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## my51isfast (Sep 16, 2008)

GEOMAN said:


> Thanks for the support, the GeoManGear team looks forward to getting this taken care of as quickly as possible


It looks as if there have been a few people wondering what the specifics of the recall entails. If it's a safety issue I hope we can get some more information. If it's a performance issue I can suck it up.
Please inform us of any safety risks. It would much appreciated so we at least have some sort of clue as to what is going on/


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Hi Mike
GeoManGear was not retailing Magicshine lightsets prior to June 2009 you may simply be mistaken about the date. The recall covers every Magicshine battery that GeoManGear has ever distributed. Did you purchase directly from China prior to June 2009? We plan to make sure every GeoManGear customer is taken care of, you can email us directly [email protected] to make sure you are on our list



Mike Brown said:


> To make sure I understand (and this is NOT a complaint)....
> the sudden total battery failure I experienced about 3 weeks ago will not be subject to recall as I bought prior to June 2009?
> Again, not a complaint, just want to make sure before I spend $ at Batteries Plus...been getting by fine with other MS unit and old L&M halogens that get about 45min to an hour out of their batteries....


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Thanks for the support Chromag, we are working hard to take care of all of our friends and understand with the days getting shorter that the timing is terrible but safety comes first.



Chromagftw said:


> Thanks Geoman, take care of what needs doing. The dust will eventually settle. Those who know do realise its the manufacturer's source of the problem. Good luck!


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

The US Safety Commission is reviewing all of the info that has been provided, we are unable to confirm specifics at this point, we must wait for their direction. The fact that we have announced a voluntary recall on every Magicshine battery we distributed, recommended temporarily discontinuing using the lightsets with the Magicshine battery and involved the US Safety Commission should give you a pretty good idea of where we stand. Safety first, store your batteries outside until we can replace them with a completely different battery pack. Please mention this to anyone you know who has a Magicshine lightset.



my51isfast said:


> It looks as if there have been a few people wondering what the specifics of the recall entails. If it's a safety issue I hope we can get some more information. If it's a performance issue I can suck it up.
> Please inform us of any safety risks. It would much appreciated so we at least have some sort of clue as to what is going on/


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## my51isfast (Sep 16, 2008)

GEOMAN said:


> Hi Mike
> GeoManGear was not retailing Magicshine lightsets prior to June 2009 you may simply be mistaken about the date. The recall covers every Magicshine battery that GeoManGear has ever distributed. Did you purchase directly from China prior to June 2009? We plan to make sure every GeoManGear customer is taken care of, you can email us directly [email protected] to make sure you are on our list


GEOMAN, can you please inform what the actual issue/issues with this system is? We know not to use them, but what are the risks. Do we need to store out batteries in a specified manner? Is there any issue with the head unit themselves?


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

We have not had any safety issues with the lightheads, we are specifically concerned about the quality of the Magicshine batteries and the safety of all users. The US Safety Commission will provide more info on this matter shortly.



my51isfast said:


> GEOMAN, can you please inform what the actual issue/issues with this system is? We know not to use them, but what are the risks. Do we need to store out batteries in a specified manner? Is there any issue with the head unit themselves?


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

my51isfast said:


> GEOMAN, can you please inform what the actual issue/issues with this system is? We know not to use them, but what are the risks. Do we need to store out batteries in a specified manner? Is there any issue with the head unit themselves?


 From earlier in the thread ...


> Safety first, store your batteries outside until we can replace them with a completely different battery pack. Please mention this to anyone you know who has a Magicshine lightset.


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## Mike Brown (Mar 12, 2004)

GEOMAN said:


> Hi Mike
> GeoManGear was not retailing Magicshine lightsets prior to June 2009 you may simply be mistaken about the date. The recall covers every Magicshine battery that GeoManGear has ever distributed. Did you purchase directly from China prior to June 2009? We plan to make sure every GeoManGear customer is taken care of, you can email us directly [email protected] to make sure you are on our list


That's what happens when I post early in the morning with a head cold. Last winter was 2009. Got it. 
FWIW- I would be happy to pay a reasonable replacement cost- say, 20-30 dollars- rather than expect you, the distributor, to be held wholly responsible for the manufacturing problems.

Thanks!


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

No worries and thanks for the support Mike, we are working on a list of remedies with the US Safety Commision to help our customers get what they need as quickly as possible.



Mike Brown said:


> That's what happens when I post early in the morning with a head cold. Last winter was 2009. Got it.
> FWIW- I would be happy to pay a reasonable replacement cost- say, 20-30 dollars- rather than expect you, the distributor, to be held wholly responsible for the manufacturing problems.
> 
> Thanks!


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

Mike Brown said:


> That's what happens when I post early in the morning with a head cold. Last winter was 2009. Got it.
> FWIW- I would be happy to pay a reasonable replacement cost- say, 20-30 dollars- rather than expect you, the distributor, to be held wholly responsible for the manufacturing problems.
> 
> Thanks!


Seconded. A discounted replacement fee would be appreciated, although a straight up replacement of course would be great. I just bought a new light set a couple months ago and have not had any problems. Should I send back the battery, keep it but not use it? I also have one from about one year ago that is still going strong. Is that battery effected by this announcement too?


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Yes our battery experts have suggested we should include ALL Magicshine batteries in this recall. We advise not to use, and you can exercize extreme caution and store outdoors to ensure safety. Our plan which is being reviewed by the US Safety Commission would be to recall the batteries and replace with a battery pack from an alternate manufacturer as soon as possible.



TwoHeadsBrewing said:


> Seconded. A discounted replacement fee would be appreciated, although a straight up replacement of course would be great. I just bought a new light set a couple months ago and have not had any problems. Should I send back the battery, keep it but not use it? I also have one from about one year ago that is still going strong. Is that battery effected by this announcement too?


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*I don't think...*



Adim_X said:


> Lipo batteries do not like a complete discharge. It is best to store them on 70-80% charge. Complete discharge is one of the factors that makes them swell and become dangerous. That is how my $100 rc cells are to be taken care of.


... these batteries are LiPo. I think they are regular LiIon. Maybe I don't understand the difference, but aren't LiPo like brick style layered batteries? IIRC, those are the ones famous for bursting into flames when smacked really hard. MS batteries are the round can style 18650 cells.


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

Hello Geo 
Thank you for standing behind what you sell 
here's a ? that I'm sure a lot of people want to ask.
Will the 90 day warranty on the light heads be extended to coincide with the down time as of yesterday due to not being able to use them?
Again thanks for stepping up to the plate Ive got a bunch of guys just waiting to get some lights when this issue is resolved.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

pimpbot said:


> ... these batteries are LiPo. I think they are regular LiIon. Maybe I don't understand the difference, but aren't LiPo like brick style layered batteries? IIRC, those are the ones famous for bursting into flames when smacked really hard. MS batteries are the round can style 18650 cells.


they use the same lithium-ion chemistry and so the discharging limitations he mentioned apply the same to either one. The difference is that electrolyte is held is a solid not a liquid and they can be made into those flat layer shapes that isn't possible with a normal liquid li-ion cell

I'm not 100% on the damage thing, but I believe its because some of those packs are made without as much protective casing to prevent punctures and such, are the internal layers probably break open and react with each other. Round cells like the 18650 always have a metal casing and I think that is the safety difference. In fact, based on the little I do know of batteries I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some 18650s are LiPo inside


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Good to know*



GEOMAN said:


> .... *The recall covers every Magicshine battery that GeoManGear has ever distributed.* Did you purchase directly from China prior to June 2009? We plan to make sure every GeoManGear customer is taken care of, you can email us directly [email protected] to make sure you are on our list


Too bad I hacked up my one bad battery and used the connector to make a 2 cell battery for my helmet light. I also Plasti-Dipped my other battery. I still have the dead battery with the connector cut off. I figured it was out of warranty, and it died because I forgot about it on the charger for a couple months (under my desk at home, on a soft wood combustible floor :shocked: )

Would one or both still be covered by the recall, since I modified them?

I would understand if they weren't covered. I wouldn't hold you to it.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

MtbMacgyver said:


> I'll probably regret getting in the middle of this, but I will offer up the information I have based on some testing I did over the past week and a half. First, I want to be clear that I have no way to know of the specific issues that prompted Geoman to stop selling the lights and pursue a recall, I can only comment on what I observed in my testing. I also don't have a vested interest in this situation as I personally use my own lights and I do not offer them for sale.
> 
> I have ties to a large local bike club, which includes a fair number of magicshine light users. Based on all the discussion on the forum about magicshine battery issues, I put out a query to the club to find out if many folks were experiencing battery problems. I quickly got a fair number of responses and was "loaned" a number of packs that were experiencing problems.
> 
> ...


1) So, since it ran down to 2V, would it be safer to only use, say, 1/2 the batteries capacity (if we do use it)
2) Could you post a DIY so we can identify if our cells have this problem?
3) I happen to have a couple of 3-cell Lithium Ion battery packs lying around. I also have a nice charger, recommended by site user "homebrew". The 3-cells are in parallel. I was thinking of connecting both packs in series and using the connector from my MagicShine pack. This would hopefully be safer, and would also provide greater capacity, with two extra cells. How can I analyze the two packs to determine if this is safe? They each have a little circuit board in them, but are pretty simple- 3-cells in blue shrink wrap. They're a couple years old, but looked like they've never been used. I charged them last weekend. I have two MORE, but they look like they've been used.

4) GeoMan: How much of this might be due to the inexpensive charger? If I cut the connectors off the charger and cells for my own DIY pack, will I still be able to exchange the battery with you later?

Also, I tested my battery life for the first time last week. I got 3:05. For the last 5 minutes, the light flashed. The battery is only about a month old with maybe 8 cycles on it. It had been charged with the factory charger, and subsequently charged with my new high-end charger, which I'll use from here on out.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Hi Raku
It's always been GeoMan's policy to give our cusomers as much benefit as possible and we have traditionally been generous beyond the Manufacturers 90 day warranty policy. The team at GeoManGear continue on in typical GeoMan fashion, we will be here taking care of our customers for many years to come. We will definitely be taking into account downtime and you can ask other folks who have had an issue beyond the manufacturers warranty, we have been very willing to help our friends.



Rakuman said:


> Hello Geo
> Thank you for standing behind what you sell
> here's a ? that I'm sure a lot of people want to ask.
> Will the 90 day warranty on the light heads be extended to coincide with the down time as of yesterday due to not being able to use them?
> Again thanks for stepping up to the plate Ive got a bunch of guys just waiting to get some lights when this issue is resolved.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Hey Pimpbot
We'll have to wait on an answer for that one until the Safety Commission finalizes the remedies plan.



pimpbot said:


> Too bad I hacked up my one bad battery and used the connector to make a 2 cell battery for my helmet light. I also Plasti-Dipped my other battery. I still have the dead battery with the connector cut off. I figured it was out of warranty, and it died because I forgot about it on the charger for a couple months (under my desk at home, on a soft wood combustible floor :shocked: )
> 
> Would one or both still be covered by the recall, since I modified them?
> 
> I would understand if they weren't covered. I wouldn't hold you to it.


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## A-Ray (Oct 18, 2009)

Just my 2 cents, but when the recall takes place, putting a potential explosive into the mail, or UPS, Fed-ex, etc... may not be such a great idea.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Fair enough*



GEOMAN said:


> Hey Pimpbot
> We'll have to wait on an answer for that one until the Safety Commission finalizes the remedies plan.


Keep us informed. Here I thought I was immune to the recall because I got the light in October of 2009. O-well.

Thanks again for doing the right thing. I would be pretty pished if I was a retailer and found out that my supplier was recycling old laptop batteries in my 'new' inventory to sell. Glad you're keeping a level head about this.

The light head is great, btw. I would love to keep using the light, but the safety is a bit of a concern for me. I would hate to have the thing burst into flames during a ride... possibly if I smack it really hard. Is that a possibility? Is part of the issue the armoring of the pack? As in, are there reports of the goofy thing bursting into flames after it gets poked by a pointy rock during a crash?

I may just take matters into my own hand and build my own battery packs from new LG or Sanyo cells.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Precisely, that's why the entire recall process is planned and implemented by experts and the US Safety Commission will approve the method. GeoManGear is waiting for clarification on the entire process, it evolves as we progress through the investigation. We are trying to provide info as it is released, the info on the website will be updated when we have new info for everyone. It's really great to see everyone taking an interest in this matter, we are sorry that it has occurred and will do everything possible to help resolve the Magicshine battery issue.

http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4_41



A-Ray said:


> Just my 2 cents, but when the recall takes place, putting a potential explosive into the mail, or UPS, Fed-ex, etc... may not be such a great idea.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

*Twitter and Facebook updates on the Magicshine Battery issue*

We will also be updating Twitter and Facebook with links to updated info as it comes in, you can link via our homepage if you are interested.

http://www.geomangear.com/


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## tg3895 (Mar 7, 2006)

GEOMAN said:


> Hi Jim, you will be included with the GeoManGear recall we have obtained customer info for The Singletrack Store customers already. Notification will go out to STS customers shortly via US Safety Commission :thumbsup:


Thanks Geo for taking care of the STS customers as well. I have two batteries from you as well as two batteries from STS. I appreciate you stepping up for all those affected by this. Hopefully it will all be resolved soon.

You may want to post something over in roadbikereview as our roadie friends are also wondering what's going on with these batteries and your name keeps popping up.

Thank you again for all of the great service you provide. :thumbsup:


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## ztbishop (May 11, 2009)

*Plastidip*

I too, have several lights from earlier this year (before they were waterproof), and I did the popular "*Plastidip*" waterproofing. Any word if these are still covered would be greatly appreciated.


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## Slowgo (Oct 23, 2005)

*A question*

Geomangear
I apologize but I would like to know where this *US Safety Commission*?:nono: 
It does not exist as a Federal Government agency?
I believe that being accurate would be the way to go at this point.
Is your "voluntary recall" because someone was injuried or they may be?
Poor run time is a defect and not a safety issue so please clarify.

Oh yes, the recall may fall under CPSC jurisdiction, a Federal Agency.
When did you notify them?

Thanks



GEOMAN said:


> Yes our battery experts have suggested we should include ALL Magicshine batteries in this recall. We advise not to use, and you can exercize extreme caution and store outdoors to ensure safety. Our plan which is being reviewed by the US Safety Commission would be to recall the batteries and replace with a battery pack from an alternate manufacturer as soon as possible.


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## scottybinwv (Jun 29, 2010)

Dang, I just got a magicshine off ebay. Contacted the seller, today, have not heard from him. Hope I am not hosed, seems like a darn good light.


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND

http://www.cpsc.gov/
TROLL


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## Slowgo (Oct 23, 2005)

*Conact PayPal*

PayPal will back you up.



scottybinwv said:


> Dang, I just got a magicshine off ebay. Contacted the seller, today, have not heard from him. Hope I am not hosed, seems like a darn good light.


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## ski2liv (Feb 24, 2010)

That sucks, good thing I am currently in PT for a bum shoulder and can't ride anyway. However, I still think the light itself is awesome and as you already took care of a premature dead battery pack and have shown nothing but the highest level of customer service since I purchased the light set, I am glad I purcahsed from you and have no doubt that you will rectify the situation correctly and professionaly. Thanks, from a customer who continues to recomend you!


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## markturbo (Sep 8, 2010)

Ah man, this is bad news, I just got my light from Geoman in October and only used it a few times so far.


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## Slowgo (Oct 23, 2005)

Duhhhh.:madman: 
I purchased one from Geoman in 2009 and I know I am in the covered period.
Of course my concern is that we should know exactly what happened to cause the final straw. I did not receive an email on this, nor have several friends that own one.

My guess is that something caused this besides low run times.
Obviously, I would not expect GM to discuss this without possible legal counsel.



Rakuman said:


> GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND
> 
> http://www.cpsc.gov/
> TROLL


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## MtbMacgyver (Jan 23, 2007)

@dam said:


> 1) So, since it ran down to 2V, would it be safer to only use, say, 1/2 the batteries capacity (if we do use it)


It's a catch 22, how can you know the current capacity of the pack w/o running it down. Running it down to find the capacity can in theory potentially damage the cells unless your pack is still reasonably balanced, which I haven't seen many that were. Also keep in mind the capacity today will be different than the capacity tomorrow if the cells have unequal self discharge rates. So the question becomes 1/2 of what?? There is no completely safe answer?



@dam said:


> 2) Could you post a DIY so we can identify if our cells have this problem?


In theory yes, but I'm in the middle of designing my next generation DIY lights so I doubt this will happen as it would be quite a bit of work.



@dam said:


> 3) I happen to have a couple of 3-cell Lithium Ion battery packs lying around. I also have a nice charger, recommended by site user "homebrew". The 3-cells are in parallel. I was thinking of connecting both packs in series and using the connector from my MagicShine pack. This would hopefully be safer, and would also provide greater capacity, with two extra cells. How can I analyze the two packs to determine if this is safe? They each have a little circuit board in them, but are pretty simple- 3-cells in blue shrink wrap. They're a couple years old, but looked like they've never been used. I charged them last weekend. I have two MORE, but they look like they've been used.


I can't really answer this without a lot more details about those particular packs. Do you have a schematic or any info about the circuit boards in the packs?



@dam said:


> 4) GeoMan: How much of this might be due to the inexpensive charger? If I cut the connectors off the charger and cells for my own DIY pack, will I still be able to exchange the battery with you later?


I can't vouch for the quality of the internals of the charger as I've never taken one apart, but I haven't seen any evidence via testing that the charger has anything to do with the battery pack issues. I doubt using a different charger will make any difference.


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## rearviewmirror (Jun 14, 2006)

It's great GeoMan is stepping up with the voluntary recall.. What is DealExtreme doing about it? Anything? Are they even acknowledging the problem?


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## Slowgo (Oct 23, 2005)

*What RE-CALL*

There is NO RECALL.
Geomangear is telling you not to use the product because there is an issue (yet to be explained).
For LEGAL reasons it's in their best interest to warn people about the "possible" (my word) danger here. Geoman if and when they do a recall are suppose to compensate the owners, sometimes only the original owners. This could mean an exchange new battery, $$$ or sadly nothing if there is no money at their end.

if this all comes down to the CPSC involvement and direction this WILL effect any company selling Magicshine in the US. Additionally this could cover anything bought through PayPal (maybe).

Deal Extreme is not a US company and is out of reach of the Federal Government agencies. HOWEVER, the shipping into the US of those products recalled or banned by the CPSC could be blocked from entry via USPS, Ship or freight forwarder.

My guess is that like all good CHinese based companies, they will simply will change the brand name.



rearviewmirror said:


> It's great GeoMan is stepping up with the voluntary recall.. What is DealExtreme doing about it? Anything? Are they even acknowledging the problem?


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

Slowgo said:


> if this all comes down to the CPSC involvement...


considering what he has mentioned in almost every post so far, it happened before any of this was publicly announced


GEOMAN said:


> We are actively working with the Safety Commission





GEOMAN said:


> Notification will go out to STS customers shortly via US Safety Commission





GEOMAN said:


> The US Safety Commission is reviewing all of the info that has been provided





GEOMAN said:


> we are working on a list of remedies with the US Safety Commision





GEOMAN said:


> We'll have to wait on an answer for that one until the Safety Commission finalizes the remedies plan


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

Message Deleted no need to feed the trolls


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

Slowgo said:


> There is NO RECALL.
> Geomangear is telling you not to use the product because there is an issue (yet to be explained).
> For LEGAL reasons it's in their best interest to warn people about the "possible" (my word) danger here. Geoman if and when they do a recall are suppose to compensate the owners, sometimes only the original owners. This could mean an exchange new battery, $$$ or sadly nothing if there is no money at their end.
> 
> ...


You really are a moron. First you were unable to find the CPSC, and now this?
I'm willing to bet a paycheck that you think the US Gov masterminded the 9-11 attacks too.


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## ThumperGary (Oct 3, 2010)

Not trying to take this warning lightly, but will there really be any issues to keep using the batteries until a recall? If there were fires or explosions, I'm thinking it would be posted here either from the person it happened to or by word of mouth by now. I just bought mine in October and have been on one nightride with a few more coming up in the near future. Something like this could drag on especially with a Chinese company involved. 

Geoman - what do you think the timeframe is for a resolution to this "problem"? It's Fall, Daylight savings time is gone, and it's time to roll............


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## rpinata (Jan 29, 2009)

*"Breathe deep, the gathering gloom"*

I have a confession...I rode with both my Magicshines tonight and a buddy did too.
Here's the funny part...no explosions or closet burning fires (I asked the other guys to give a little whistle if they saw my pack on fire), just like the hundred other times I've cycled them. Sure, one lasts a little longer than the other but I paid $80.00 a piece a season ago.
Did I take them to work today and keep an eye on them when I was charging instead of just setting them on my bench all night? Yeah. Will I store them in a can or on some concrete instead of putting them back in the original box like I normally do? Yeah.

Geoman has to do what he has to do. I love that company and have only had great service but I'm still riding.

and taking deep breathes.


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## POG (May 20, 2004)

Bummer - I have two - ordered one last year and liked it so well I ordered another this year. I haven't received an email but fortunately kept my receipts. 

Maybe this is the sign I've been waiting for to make me pull the trigger on that darkstar!


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## ASpot13 (Apr 4, 2007)

rpinata said:


> I have a confession...I rode with both my Magicshines tonight and a buddy did too.
> Here's the funny part...no explosions or closet burning fires (I asked the other guys to give a little whistle if they saw my pack on fire), just like the hundred other times I've cycled them. Sure, one lasts a little longer than the other but I paid $80.00 a piece a season ago.
> Did I take them to work today and keep an eye on them when I was charging instead of just setting them on my bench all night? Yeah. Will I store them in a can or on some concrete instead of putting them back in the original box like I normally do? Yeah.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: Ditto.


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## circusubet (Aug 5, 2006)

*Recall*

I for one bought and recommended MS to many friends. I have one battery that stopped. I opened it it up, ( because of guys like MtbMacgyver), he never lets his ego, ( which could be huge 'cause of his knowledge), get in the way of encouraging guys like me to try our DIY. That battery had a loose wire, soldered it, good to go. But I digress....

I have had MANY night rides, that with out GEOMAN, (and Reed) I would never had. I am now trying to research how to re-build the battery packs I have or build new ones. I do not care if I ever get a refund from GEOMAN. I took a chance and knew the odds. GEOMAN has stepped up and absolutely done the right thing.

I have three running units. The dead battery will stay with me.

Thanks GEOMAN for all the night rides you have sent me on...

THX,
John


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## Slowgo (Oct 23, 2005)

Okay, You win.
I'm an idiot and half the people here will cotinue to use their batteries
and the other half will consider to still use their batteries.

Whatever, call me when the dust settles. :thumbsup:



ajmelin said:


> You really are a moron. First you were unable to find the CPSC, and now this?
> I'm willing to bet a paycheck that you think the US Gov masterminded the 9-11 attacks too.


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

Slowgo said:


> Okay, You win.
> I'm an idiot and half the people here will cotinue to use their batteries
> and the other half will consider to still use their batteries.
> 
> Whatever, call me when the dust settles. :thumbsup:


well, actually your correct. Im sure the intentions are honorable but GEOMAN is simply a distributor, bottom line. Its a classic CYA that I would have done myself being in that position. The CHINA based company will just rebrand with some minor cosmetic changes. Probably already in the works.

I do hope Im wrong but just trying to be realistic.

circusubet nailed it perfectly!


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## nitelights (Mar 16, 2010)

Is anyone actually sure they have exploded?
Or are you all just speculating?


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

nitelights said:


> Is anyone actually sure they have exploded?
> Or are you all just speculating?


Speculating on the actual cause but give Geoman a call to see if you need to start a recall too.

Might be something like this got things going...
http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7495761&postcount=23
http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7496993&postcount=34


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## nitelights (Mar 16, 2010)

A friends house burnt he claims. Come on that's second hand speculation. He also shows pics of a burnt light head? Maybe he left it plugged to the light head in a bag, it got hot being static and ignited something.
We threw half a dozen packs high into the air and drove over more with the car after the doco on TV about the aircraft LIPO battery fire.

Simulated a short in the terminals which lasted all of 2 seconds before the connections melted.

Too much speculation at the moment. As stated before. Geoman, DX and magicshine cells and PCB's are quite different to ours although you will probebly SPECULATE differently. LOL


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## nick d (May 25, 2007)

rpinata said:


> I have a confession...I rode with both my Magicshines tonight and a buddy did too.
> Here's the funny part...no explosions or closet burning fires (I asked the other guys to give a little whistle if they saw my pack on fire), just like the hundred other times I've cycled them. Sure, one lasts a little longer than the other but I paid $80.00 a piece a season ago.
> Did I take them to work today and keep an eye on them when I was charging instead of just setting them on my bench all night? Yeah. Will I store them in a can or on some concrete instead of putting them back in the original box like I normally do? Yeah.
> 
> ...


x2, and i sleep with mine under my pillow


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## nando (Jun 27, 2005)

*Some clarificaton...*

Hey guys, I've been following the MagicShine threads for a while now. From what I understand, if I have this battery pack I should be ok:









but if I have this one, I should be concerned:









Correct? Or, should I be concerned about _any MS battery pack_? I have the second one (bought from GeoMan). Still no issues (got a good ride out of it last night). In fact, no issues that I know of here in Austin, where a bunch of riders got 'em. I'll keep following this thread.

Oh, GeoMan, my respect out to you for being proactive about this. :thumbsup:

.


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## my51isfast (Sep 16, 2008)

nitelights said:


> A friends house burnt he claims. Come on that's second hand speculation. He also shows pics of a burnt light head? Maybe he left it plugged to the light head in a bag, it got hot being static and ignited something.
> We threw half a dozen packs high into the air and drove over more with the car after the doco on TV about the aircraft LIPO battery fire.
> 
> Simulated a short in the terminals which lasted all of 2 seconds before the connections melted.
> ...


I feel much the same way you do. There has been waaaay more speculation than specifics. If there were actual details...and like you said no second-hand speculation I would not be taking a wait and see attitude.

I spoke with a friend last night and we both thought if these things have been burning down houses and blowing up planes and UPS trucks we would have heard about it sooner.

I can't claim to fully understand the CSPC process, but it is my understanding they do not take voluntary recalls lightly and they do not take weeks or months to complete if peoples houses are burning down.

just my .02 I know not everyone will agree, but it makes you think about whole process.


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## rzims (Sep 7, 2005)

I have two, both are fully charged and since that seems to be the "dangerous" part I'm past that so I'll have a good ride this evening.
GeoMan stepped up big time and I appreciate that. I'm happy to support vendors that do the right thing.
My question, is there a suitable replacement pack that we can buy now, while we wait for GeoMan to get this resolved?


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## onyourbike (Mar 18, 2006)

I charge my MS battery pack with a 15 min on / 15 min off cycle, as recommended by someone on another forum. Obviously it takes twice as long to charge, but if it's safer..


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## tg3895 (Mar 7, 2006)

onyourbike said:


> I charge my MS battery pack with a 15 min on / 15 min off cycle, as recommended by someone on another forum. Obviously it takes twice as long to charge, but if it's safer..


Hmmm...interesting....thanks for sharing. Possibly a safer way to charge the battery.


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## khskenny (Sep 29, 2009)

onyourbike said:


> I charge my MS battery pack with a 15 min on / 15 min off cycle, as recommended by someone on another forum. Obviously it takes twice as long to charge, but if it's safer..


Do you know what the logic behind this is?


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## Sinker (Feb 3, 2007)

I bought a MS on Ebay a few weeks ago. Have there actually been any verified reports of fire, explosion or any unsafe incident caused by charging or even using a MS battery?

To tell you the truth, I'm feeling pretty lucky. Heck, I've never even broken my Fisher Hifi!


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## onyourbike (Mar 18, 2006)

khskenny said:


> Do you know what the logic behind this is?


I just dug up the post over on candlepowerforums (it dates back to october last year).

the 15 min on / 15 min off method was actually recommended to prevent the charger catching fire:

quote:

'Or using the least invasive, least intensive, countermeasure and most passive solution in an ordinary digital timer, just set the digital timer for fifteen minutes of charging the battery pack which is then is cycled off for fifteen minutes off cycle and then fifteen minutes of charging, this is repeated until the battery is fully charged(lit up green); without causing the undesired thermal runaway conditions that can lead to a potential fire on the connected lithium ion charger. This is the most surefire way of preventing a potential overheating thermal runaway condition from developing in the first way(see below link).'

post # 152 here


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## mtbcrazee (Nov 17, 2010)

Ok so who has had a battery explode or catch alight, not a single forum I have read today has anyone stated anything of the sort so stop looking for something when it is not there. Geoman is a company in the States and you know how people are scared of being sued. I heard all they need is 20 faulty batteries and then it needs to be investigated now bet your ass they have sold thousands of these lights. All I have ever read about these lights has been great until the guessing and speculation in the last few days. If you have a light that has exploded or caught alight, lets hear about it, if not, get on your bike and get night riding!! I am keeping mine cos can't get anything better for that price. It still kicks butt!


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

mtbcrazee said:


> Ok so who has had a battery explode or catch alight, not a single forum I have read today has anyone stated anything of the sort so stop looking for something when it is not there. Geoman is a company in the States and you know how people are scared of being sued. I heard all they need is 20 faulty batteries and then it needs to be investigated now bet your ass they have sold thousands of these lights. All I have ever read about these lights has been great until the guessing and speculation in the last few days. If you have a light that has exploded or caught alight, lets hear about it, if not, get on your bike and get night riding!! I am keeping mine cos can't get anything better for that price. It still kicks butt!


Thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=664848&page=2
Post: http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7495761&postcount=58
Post: http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7496993&postcount=74


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

For the love of Dog, does anybody actually know what the issue is? 

Is is blowing up during charging, or blowing up in storage, or blowing up during use? Is it specifically a battery fire, charger fire, of both?

Way too much speculation, and 'fixes' to problem we don't even know about yet.

This issue is starting to feel more like a McCarthy style witchhunt for communists than a real concern.

I have a real hard time believing that a 400ma charge current can generate enough heat to start a fire. I thought the issue was more about internal plate shorting.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

nitelights said:


> A friends house burnt he claims. Come on that's second hand speculation. He also shows pics of a burnt light head? Maybe he left it plugged to the light head in a bag, it got hot being static and ignited something.
> We threw half a dozen packs high into the air and drove over more with the car after the doco on TV about the aircraft LIPO battery fire.
> 
> Simulated a short in the terminals which lasted all of 2 seconds before the connections melted.
> ...


Charger fire:
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/dx-bastid-charger-catches-fire
But then, you use a different charger. In fact you marketing material warns people not to buy other products: _"The charger is not an approved unit - if it causes a fire, your insurance could be jeopardised"_


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## nickfury (Sep 30, 2008)

I bought three last year. Two from TSS, and one from Geoman around November of 2009.

I, nor my friends who I convinced to buy them as well, havent got an email from Geoman yet, is that ok?

Again Geoman, like others have said, its a standup thing you are doing, and the next light I get is going to be from you for sure!


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

I bought 6 lights recently and I haven't got one either I think the CPSC will be going threw Geos database and they will be sending official recall notices, I'm not too worried we will get something soon enough.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Thanks fellas, we have a recall page on the site now see the link below, we will place as much info in the FAQ section as we can, this page will be evolving so check back often. The matter is is being managed by the US Safety Commission, the flow of info is governed by their protocols. We are taking the battery quality issue very seriously, your safety is our number one priority. We are sending out info updates to the Recall page, Twitter and Facebook. Some folks reported they didn't receive the Interim Notice email, we believe it may have been blocked by spam filters, the same info is available on our recall page. There will be a number of notices sent via email and regular mail so folks won't miss out on info. Customers from The Singletrack Store will be receiving a similar notice shortly, the company has been closed down for 6 months so we are working on getting an email out with safety info shortly.

http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=recall



nickfury said:


> I bought three last year. Two from TSS, and one from Geoman around November of 2009.
> 
> I, nor my friends who I convinced to buy them as well, havent got an email from Geoman yet, is that ok?
> 
> Again Geoman, like others have said, its a standup thing you are doing, and the next light I get is going to be from you for sure!


----------



## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Correct Raku, we are sending out Interim Safety Info to help folks take precautionary measures, the Safety Commission will be working on further releases. We will continue to update our recall info page for everyone as soon as we have new info. Our email volume has increased ten-fold so we are trying to get as much info on that page as quickly as possible.

http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=recall



Rakuman said:


> I bought 6 lights recently and I haven't got one either I think the CPSC will be going threw Geos database and they will be sending official recall notices, I'm not too worried we will get something soon enough.


----------



## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

Well that answers more than a few Questions.
Thanks Geo looking forward to the new improved batteries


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

thanks geoman for sending out information so willingly. I don't normally browse this board, so the e-mails were instrumental for me.

it is disappointing, though, because temperatures are good for commuting in my area finally and I've been wanting to commute, yet it gets dark so early.

guess I'll be driving at least until I can get replacement batteries.


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## nick d (May 25, 2007)

GEOMAN said:


> Customers from The Singletrack Store will be receiving a similar notice shortly, the company has been closed down for 6 months so *we are working on getting an email out with safety info shortly*.
> 
> http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=recall


helping out another stores customers, thats certainly above and beyond! :thumbsup:


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## linger (Nov 10, 2010)

For all the curious battery geeks out there that want to understand some basics on how lithium ion batteries fail - The following link is a blurb I wrote a couple years ago in a RC car forum. It specifically applies to lithium polymer and RC car applications, but almost all of it is still valid here.

Understanding lipo fires 101

http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/182219-understanding-lipo-fires-101-a.html


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## bvoutdoorz (Apr 1, 2004)

GEOMAN said:


> Hi Jim, you will be included with the GeoManGear recall we have obtained customer info for The Singletrack Store customers already. Notification will go out to STS customers shortly via US Safety Commission :thumbsup:


Good to hear Geoman. I purchased two from you last year via that TucsonMTB promotion. Thanks for your follow up!


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## MOMtbiker (Jun 20, 2009)

Geoman is top notch!

Thanks for standing behind what you sell, seems rare these days.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Thanks for the support, we want to get you all safely back out on the trails and roads as quickly as possible. :thumbsup: Please check our recall page regularly for info updates and spread the word to any of your cycling friends that may have bought a Magicshine lighting system elsewhere, your safety is number one on our list.



MOMtbiker said:


> Geoman is top notch!
> 
> Thanks for standing behind what you sell, seems rare these days.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

GEOMAN said:


> Hi Mike
> GeoManGear was not retailing Magicshine lightsets prior to June 2009 you may simply be mistaken about the date. The recall covers every Magicshine battery that GeoManGear has ever distributed. Did you purchase directly from China prior to June 2009? We plan to make sure every GeoManGear customer is taken care of, you can email us directly [email protected] to make sure you are on our list


I have not received any email (just checked my spam folder) so I will email you. Thank you very much for being honest and pro-active with these batteries! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: 

Bought my MS 08/16/2010.


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## BaeckerX1 (Oct 19, 2007)

I respect what Geoman is doing, but I have to wonder... If there was a safety danger, and a recall coming...don't they have an obligation to let us know exactly what the danger is? It's not enough just to say not to use the batteries. The customers need to know if there is some kind of safety concern. I doubt the safety commission would tell you not to disclose this information. I don't know what the issue is, and I don't want to speculate, but let's look at worst case scenario.

If someone's house burned down in the meantime, or were severely burned because of a battery failure without knowing the specific dangers involved, what then?

When Toyota had the accelerator failure, they told you that the accelerator could get stuck and kill you. They didn't just say "don't drive your car, we'll tell you why later." People will wait and blow it off if they're not certain it's a serious issue that can result in injury.

Dell came out right away with their disclosure that certain laptop batteries could catch on fire and then issued the recall. This isn't new ground here.

I'll gladly stand by GeoManGear in the future and continue to order from them once they make this right, but it isn't right to keep people in the dark like this if there is indeed a legitimate safety concern. I doubt the *Safety* Commission would tell a company not to disclose this information that could result in consumer injuries.


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## shuffles (Oct 7, 2008)

I haven't had an issue with the battery that Geoman replaced for me about a month ago (first one didn't charge at all out of the box). So, I'm still riding with it. I mean, why should I worry about an potentially explosive fire hazard strapped right between my thighs?

Note, please, that was just a little gallows humor and I do not expect the thing to explode or start burning.


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## khskenny (Sep 29, 2009)

BaeckerX1 said:


> I respect what Geoman is doing, but I have to wonder... If there was a safety danger, and a recall coming...don't they have an obligation to let us know exactly what the danger is? It's not enough just to say not to use the batteries. The customers need to know if there is some kind of safety concern. I doubt the safety commission would tell you not to disclose this information. I don't know what the issue is, and I don't want to speculate, but let's look at worst case scenario.
> 
> If someone's house burned down in the meantime, or were severely burned because of a battery failure without knowing the specific dangers involved, what then?
> 
> ...


Maybe Dell and Toyota corresponded with the CPSC or similar agency before we ever heard anything about the possible safety issues with their respective products. I bet Toyota and Dell *could* have come out publicly with information well before the recall was official. We are in an informal setting here and it sounds like Geoman is just providing us with a "heads up" if you will. I think Geoman also does not fully realize the extent of the problem since it sounds like there are outside consultants looking into it.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

We are bound by the protocols of the US Safety Commission, once you notify them of a potential safety issue they literally take over control. We got approval to release an Interim Safety Notice via email, website and forums so that we could give advance warning on a potential safety issue for consumers. We have suggested that you discontinue using your batteries and store them outdoors in a safe manner for your own safety until we can get further approval from the US Safety Commission. More info with be forthcoming the very instant we have it. Please see our recall info page for updated info http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=recall



BaeckerX1 said:


> I respect what Geoman is doing, but I have to wonder... If there was a safety danger, and a recall coming...don't they have an obligation to let us know exactly what the danger is? It's not enough just to say not to use the batteries. The customers need to know if there is some kind of safety concern. I doubt the safety commission would tell you not to disclose this information. I don't know what the issue is, and I don't want to speculate, but let's look at worst case scenario.
> 
> If someone's house burned down in the meantime, or were severely burned because of a battery failure without knowing the specific dangers involved, what then?
> 
> ...


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## tmccrohon (Jan 17, 2004)

*No e mail yet.*

I stopped using my lights. I have two which are my only lights currently. I put them outside in a metal can for storage. Bummer, night riding season is here. I will wait a few more days and if an e mail does not arrive, I will e mail geoman


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## Sinker (Feb 3, 2007)

Sounds like Geoman is good people and going above and beyond, but I'm still a little confused. I assume that all MS batteries built within a certain time frame will have the issue, not just those sold by Geoman. 

So...what's the process? Does the CPSC do an investigation then if warranted compell the manufacturer to issue a product recall? 

I bought mine from an Ebay seller a couple of weeks ago. I'm not really worried and will continue to use it, but just curious.


----------



## bentboy242 (Nov 7, 2009)

*dinotte battery*

I have used a Dinotte battery on the magicshine I put on my daughter's bike. It seems to be fine. I have also interchanged the magicshine charger with Dinotte batteries. All you magicshine lovers out there might consider a Dinotte battery, and just run it off the magicshine charger and hope for the best. Or better yet, plunk down the money for great Dinotte lights. 
Nothing bad to say about Dinotte lights.


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## Tzvia (Sep 7, 2008)

My Magicshine front and rear lights are my main commuter lights so I am still using them. I'm charging my batteries in a metal can with a lid (small dent for cord to go through) in my presence, then I take the can outside and leave it till morning when I grab a battery for my commute. In the evening, I remove the battery from the bike and put it back in the can, which is left outside on concrete. I don't think the odds of my battery catching fire is great, but I like my house. 

Didn't get an email, I think my spam filter dumped it in the junk folder and I just deleted it along with the 60 other junk emails I got that day... Will have to keep closer tabs on that. 

Thanks for the heads-up Geoman, it's good to see a responsible vendor do what is right. Now I gotta go take my Tundra in to check for rust-through on the frame that makes the spare tire fall out...


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Thanks for the support, please keep an eye on our recall page or signup for Twitter or Facebook updates so we can get you instant updates on the progress of this issue with the Safety Commission. http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=recall



Tzvia said:


> My Magicshine front and rear lights are my main commuter lights so I am still using them. I'm charging my batteries in a metal can with a lid (small dent for cord to go through) in my presence, then I take the can outside and leave it till morning when I grab a battery for my commute. In the evening, I remove the battery from the bike and put it back in the can, which is left outside on concrete. I don't think the odds of my battery catching fire is great, but I like my house.
> 
> Didn't get an email, I think my spam filter dumped it in the junk folder and I just deleted it along with the 60 other junk emails I got that day... Will have to keep closer tabs on that.
> 
> Thanks for the heads-up Geoman, it's good to see a responsible vendor do what is right. Now I gotta go take my Tundra in to check for rust-through on the frame that makes the spare tire fall out...


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## osteo (Sep 9, 2010)

nando said:


> Hey guys, I've been following the MagicShine threads for a while now. From what I understand, if I have this battery pack I should be ok:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nando, what is that first battery you have posted?? no one answered your question if it is one of the ones affected... I too have purchased from DX - I'm going to email them and see what they have to say, I'll post back.

D


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## Ziemas (Apr 11, 2005)

My mistake.....


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

That second battery is the original Series I battery, it is definitely included in our concerned list of Magicshine batteries, if you bought it from us you will be on our list for recall remedies.



osteo said:


> Nando, what is that first battery you have posted?? no one answered your question if it is one of the ones affected... I too have purchased from DX - I'm going to email them and see what they have to say, I'll post back.
> 
> D


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## gord962 (Aug 11, 2007)

Thanks, GEOMAN! In this world of dollars and cents, it is rare when someone takes responsibility for their product. It is even more rare when a distributor takes responsibility for their suppliers products. Let's hope every other company across the globe is taking notes...


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## dcc1234 (Nov 5, 2008)

I'll be with the dare-devils/ crazy folk who will continue to use ours until signs of danger or replacement battery received. In my case, I use every weekday evening for my commute.

Today, I'm taking a precaution that I never had before. I asked the maintenance guy in my building at work for something metal to charge batteries in. He gave me an electrical box - where my magic-shine batt is now happily charging.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

GMG, can I just send in my batteries, or do we need RA#'s, etc? I have three that I have purchased in the last 6 months, and one charger pooched out in the first month.
Thanks!


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Thanks for the heads up. :thumbsup:


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## Hill-Pumper (Apr 30, 2010)

Geoman, the email I received stated....


Please use our Contact form to notify us of:

1. A warranty problem on a non-battery product within the 90 day warranty period.
2. If you have questions about other products we are currently selling.
3. To request a refund for a lightset purchased within the 90 day warranty period.

Does that mean lightsets sold in the last 90 days are eligible for a refund since the battery is defective? I am not sure that is what I want to do, but just wanted to see what options are available.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Maybe get the lid for it as well*



dcc1234 said:


> I'll be with the dare-devils/ crazy folk who will continue to use ours until signs of danger or replacement battery received. In my case, I use every weekday evening for my commute.
> 
> Today, I'm taking a precaution that I never had before. I asked the maintenance guy in my building at work for something metal to charge batteries in. He gave me an electrical box - where my magic-shine batt is now happily charging.
> 
> View attachment 580613


That is a pretty common 4" box. The lid for it will set you back like a buck fitty at any hardware store, and it can just be clipped on with no tools.


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## 96m2comp (Oct 12, 2007)

So how is everyone "SAFELY STORING" the batteries outside? I thought about a 1 gal metal paint can w/ a lid, but I thought that possibly be just as dangerous if pressure built up inside IF something happened!

Chris


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

96m2comp said:


> So how is everyone "SAFELY STORING" the batteries outside? I thought about a 1 gal metal paint can w/ a lid, but I thought that possibly be just as dangerous if pressure built up inside IF something happened!
> 
> Chris


I like the electrical box idea. PAint can would work just drill a few relief holes in it. You cold even stuff them with steel wool if you were worried about making a flame throwing paint can..

Roar


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

I have mine sitting in my kiln in the garage those fire bricks can handle at least 2600 degrees i think that will work. Im not too worried just trying to build some replacement batteries .


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## 96m2comp (Oct 12, 2007)

I thought about drilling some holes, just wasn't sure how much pressure there may be.

I even thought about an old ammo box. To bad I don't have one!

Chris


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## odtexas (Oct 2, 2008)

If you guys are going to store them outside consider putting them in your BBQ pit/grill. 
That should protect them from the elements
Just remember to take them out before you light it.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

RipRoar said:


> I like the electrical box idea. PAint can would work just drill a few relief holes in it. * You cold even stuff them with steel wool if you were worried about making a flame throwing paint can..*
> 
> Roar


you know steel wool is flammable right? :skep:





...Not to mention the chance of a fiber finding it's way into the plug and shorting...:idea: :nono:


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Anyone know what the symptoms of a bad battery vs. a head unit/switch?

My 1400 (that I JUST bought) is dead and for the life of me I can't find my multi-meter to verify if it's the battery.
One thing though, is that when I plug the battery into the charger (unplugged from the wall) the LED indicator lights green.
The LED for the switch, however does not light, and of course, neither do the mains.

GeoMan, I can still get a replacement head/switch right? if that is the case?


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

LOL, thank goodness for the interwebz to point this out. I was more thinking heavy gauge like below. Ill have to put a disclaimer on my sig for now on....


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## POG (May 20, 2004)

odtexas said:


> If you guys are going to store them outside consider putting them in your BBQ pit/grill.
> That should protect them from the elements
> Just remember to take them out before you light it.


Great tip! If they catch fire is there any reason we shouldn't grill a burger over them?


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

RipRoar said:


> LOL, thank goodness for the interwebz to point this out. I was more thinking heavy gauge like below. Ill have to put a disclaimer on my sig for now on....


NO! :madman: stuff it with carbon fibers - it's MUUUUCH lighter!


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## osteo (Sep 9, 2010)

So far storage for mine is right here on my desk... actually I have done one better and cut the battery case open to see which batteries are actually inside:










Not much I can find with that serial number via Google, but my guess as per this whole thread are that those batteries fall into the non-protected category.

In talking to a buddy of mine that has a bit of a light fetish! (he's one of those 100mile ultramarathoner's) we got to thinking on why not change out that battery for a protected 18650? as they do make them. (bottom one in the pic)










My thought was to then put the 4 18650's into one of those 4 battery holders and this way they can be popped out and charged individually, but as you can see the 18650 is longer than a AA









This online store actually has a rather long Safety Instructions and Warnings section on those batteries: Battery Space Warnings

Well, they do have holders for 18650 on that site - and then I came across an entire section of pre-made 18650's in various configurations and lots of them are Protected.

I gotta go back and read the stat's on the MS light and see what it requires.

Here is the link to a battery pack example:

https://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo418650battery64v2400mahsquare144wh14aratewithpcbandpolyswitch.aspx

Here is the screen shot:









Anybody know what the configuration of the batteries are for the MS light? I think someone mentioned it earlier in the thread (or I read it somewhere...).

D


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

Ceramic flower pot... lid on top. Done. 

The paint can would work fine, as long as it isn't one of the newer plastic ones. Just don't hammer the lid on.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

pimpbot said:


> Ceramic flower pot... lid on top. Done. ...


Dust-off your hands and walk away.
That is one fine solution


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

96m2comp said:


> So how is everyone "SAFELY STORING" the batteries outside? I thought about a 1 gal metal paint can w/ a lid, but I thought that possibly be just as dangerous if pressure built up inside IF something happened!
> 
> Chris


Outside? :eekster: Well I guess you could as long as you have a place that's dry. Just remember If the batteries get real cold ( freezing ) that is not real good for Li-ion cells. Not only that, but if the cells get real cold, wait until they warm up before recharging. Personally, I see nothing wrong with charging and storing inside as long as you have a metal container...Ideas: rectangular cake pan, pie pan, old fry pan, old boy Scout cook kit...etc, etc..I don't think a lid is necessary but whatever...a smoke detector near-by might be nice for those really paranoid about fire and such. As for me, I'm more in danger by my old plug-in heat pad.  One day I'll forget to unplug it and ..Poof...up in flames. :aureola:


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## nando (Jun 27, 2005)

I'm using a fire-retardant cash box I have. Kind of like this one:


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## Freediver (Jan 1, 2008)

I'm storing mine in this, not sure what it was originally used for but seems to do the trick.


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## random walk (Jan 12, 2010)

Freediver said:


> I'm storing mine in this, not sure what it was originally used for but seems to do the trick.


:lol:


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## tscheezy (Dec 19, 2003)

There is something weird going on with the https://www.geomangear.com/ website.  I followed the link in Geomangear's singature and even googled it, but I went there to look up the recall info and got a sort of generic web search page. Maybe they are mid-update or something...


----------



## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

I get a link to "Affiliate Marketing". Maybe switching hosting providers?


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## ernestrome (Aug 1, 2008)

I get a zen-cart page.


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## Adim_X (Mar 3, 2010)

Maybe recalling all MS batteries ever sold is a little financially unsettling....


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## Drew K. (May 30, 2006)

ernestrome said:


> I get a zen-cart page.


+ 1


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

Adim_X said:


> Maybe recalling all MS batteries ever sold is a little financially unsettling....


Considering the battery appears to be half the cost of a light set, it would seem to be a huge problem. This is not a good development. Maybe it is time to study the DIY battery thread.


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## ernestrome (Aug 1, 2008)

Does anyone know if this issue affect current deal extreme stock?


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

I think they have been hacked
or like someone else said they could be doing maintenance or switching servers 
I tried to get to another page on his site and this came up

You have asked Firefox to connect
securely to www.geomangear.com, but we can't confirm that your connection is secure.
Normally, when you try to connect securely,
sites will present trusted identification to prove that you are
going to the right place. However, this site's identity can't be verifie
What Should I do
If you usually connect to
this site without problems, this error could mean that someone is
trying to impersonate the site, and you shouldn't cont
Technical Details
www.geomangear.com uses an invalid security certificate.
The certificate is not trusted because it is self-signed.
The certificate is only valid for localhost.localdomain
(Error code: sec_error_untrusted_issuer) 
I Understand the Risks


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## nitelights (Mar 16, 2010)

ernestrome said:


> Does anyone know if this issue affect current deal extreme stock?


They are the same.


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

Just tried to email them to let them know and their email address is not working HUMMMM that's interesting.
its coming back undeliverable I kind of doubt that they are skipping town if I was going to do something like that I would leave the website and email up for appearances for at least a couple of months 
personally i think everything is all good 
and they just got hacked or are doing maintenance


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## JMCCRNA (Dec 2, 2005)

I got that same screen once before a month or so ago. When I finally got through there were changes to the site.

Joe


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

The Sky Is Falling! 
The Sky Is Falling! 
Henny Penny, Quick, Go Tell Goosy Loosy The Sky Is Falling!


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

ajmelin said:


> The Sky Is Falling!
> The Sky Is Falling!
> Henny Penny, Quick, Go Tell Goosy Loosy The Sky Is Falling!


its more like Who turned those lights out! 
I'm not too worried he posted on facebook 3 hours ago


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## cycljunkie (Feb 6, 2004)

Maybe one of the techs at the hosting site was charging a couple of MS batteries in the server room and they burst into flames and burned the entire rack?


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

ITS BACK UP:ihih: :ihih: :ihih:


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Yep...*



Rakuman said:


> ITS BACK UP:ihih: :ihih: :ihih:


seems to be fixed. Maybe their web hosting server went down or something. He's probably being hosted on the sane physical server as 200 other websites.


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## Adirondack Blues (Mar 4, 2004)

> Now, however, the safety issue is all but confirmed by Geoman. I understand his position in this and not being at liberty to freely give details, but it seems like here on MTBR we have had zero first hand accounts, and one second hand account of this fire hazard. I'd like to be able to use my new purchase that just arrived today, but I guess I'm questioning exactly what the extent of the safety concern is with these batteries. It seems like many have used these without problem, and if some simple precautions can lessen the chances of having a problem, then I will go ahead and use the light for now. Anyone who feels knowledgeable about this subject or LiB's in general, please comment and respond. Thanks.


This all part of a conspiracy perpetrated by members of the lighting industry who are afraid of losing their share of the market to MagicShine and Geoman. The "battery safety problem" does not really exist.

The truth is out there.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

pimpbot said:


> seems to be fixed. Maybe their web hosting server went down or something. He's probably being hosted on the sane physical server as 200 other websites.


OR,,, maybe it's hosted on the INSANE server...:idea:


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

pimpbot said:


> seems to be fixed. Maybe their web hosting server went down or something. He's probably being hosted on the sane physical server as 200 other websites.


If I am not mistaken, the site is now in a different format. I am guessing it was down while they migrated to a new layout. Site migration should never happen that way, but oh well.


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## S:Drive (Aug 19, 2009)

I am sure glad I purchase my Magicshine lights from someone else that was smart enough to spec a better battery. Too bad though, all this bad press, and the guy I bought them off is not moving them. Oh well, at least mine are fine.


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## Adim_X (Mar 3, 2010)

The truth is, the batteries don't balance correctly during charging and discharging. Over time this leads to one or more cells becoming unstable. Sometimes a pack has poor life, and other times it may swell and fail even catastrophically. 

I don't view this as any conspiracy, it is just an unfortunate miscalculation from design intent. Hopefully a more robust charging and balancing system are in place soon that will allow us to fully utilize these great value lights.


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

Adim_X said:


> Hopefully a more robust charging and balancing system are in place soon that will allow us to fully utilize these great value lights.


There is. Read up on Li-Po or Li-ion batteries on one of the many links that have already been posted or go in the DIY Lighting forum. Tons of suggestions and ideas in there.


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## markturbo (Sep 8, 2010)

Any updates on what's being done? I didn't get any email or snail mail about a recall or safety issue?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

markturbo said:


> Any updates on what's being done? I didn't get any email or snail mail about a recall or safety issue?


Read the posts from GeoMan and look at the links to his website to answer your questions; it is in the hands of the CSPC now.


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## orangedog (Aug 30, 2008)

sorry to introduce an uninformed threadjack, but are there any known problems with the battery for the mj-836?


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## fightnut (Jul 5, 2007)

S:Drive said:


> I am sure glad I purchase my Magicshine lights from someone else that was smart enough to spec a better battery. Too bad though, all this bad press, and the guy I bought them off is not moving them. Oh well, at least mine are fine.


How do you know your seller "spec'd a better battery"? Because he told you he did? Because you haven't had a problem? LOL!

I got mine from Geo last year, no problem at all. What does this mean? Nothing. Some batteries are failing, some aren't.


----------



## S:Drive (Aug 19, 2009)

fightnut said:


> How do you know your seller "spec'd a better battery"? Because he told you he did? Because you haven't had a problem? LOL!
> 
> I got mine from Geo last year, no problem at all. What does this mean? Nothing. Some batteries are failing, some aren't.


Because he is my personal friend, and I know the difference between the two batteries dumb ass!


----------



## tscheezy (Dec 19, 2003)

S:Drive said:


> and I know the difference between the two batteries dumb ass!


Just curious, but what brand/make/model/style etc was the battery? Was it a Dinotte or something similar? I must come with a compatible plug and I'm not sure how many systems out there use the same pop plug as the MS.


----------



## S:Drive (Aug 19, 2009)

tscheezy said:


> Just curious, but what brand/make/model/style etc was the battery? Was it a Dinotte or something similar? I must come with a compatible plug and I'm not sure how many systems out there use the same pop plug as the MS.


I will get you a picture and the specs.


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

ajmelin said:


> You really are a moron. First you were unable to find the CPSC, and now this?
> I'm willing to bet a paycheck that you think the US Gov masterminded the 9-11 attacks too.


They did. 3 straight down collapses at freefall speeds.... and you never went to the moon! lol And the Bliderberger's are yours (and ours) real government.

But can we keep that **** out of this? It's unnecessary!


----------



## Grunion (Feb 28, 2007)

I have Ballistic batteries making me some new packs, and getting me a correct charger. I will report back when there done. They are also going to make me some bigger packs for the endurance races, I am excited about that.


----------



## osteo (Sep 9, 2010)

Grunion said:


> I have Ballistic batteries making me some new packs, and getting me a correct charger. I will report back when there done. They are also going to make me some bigger packs for the endurance races, I am excited about that.


I'd be interested in this :thumbsup: I've got some 24hr races coming up this season.

Thanks,
D


----------



## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

osteo said:


> I'd be interested in this :thumbsup: I've got some 24hr races coming up this season.
> 
> Thanks,
> D


X2!


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

9speed said:


> ....But can we keep that **** out of this? It's unnecessary!


Yes. Let's start by not bringing up a post that is a month and a half old.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

ajmelin said:


> Yes. Let's start by not bringing up a post that is a month and a half old.


Not to me it isn't. I have only just tuned in.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

9speed said:


> Not to me it isn't. I have only just tuned in.


Doesn't change the age of the post.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

ajmelin said:


> Doesn't change the age of the post.


And yet it is a post that will continue to be bumped until the story of the magicshine battery and charger is played out....

Incidentally, my charger for my magicshine doesn't go green anymore.... I still seem to get a full charge and near claimed run times, but..... I now have no way of telling when the pack is charged.


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## moonedzx9 (May 1, 2009)

There is someone selling the magicshine on ebay and they said they have new batteries built after 11/8/2010. Does anyone know anything about these?


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

ajmelin said:


> Yes. Let's start by not bringing up a post that is a month and a half old.


Doesn't matter how old the post if it's relevant. Best to keep all the info in on thread anyways. :thumbsup:



moonedzx9 said:


> There is someone selling the magicshine on ebay and they said they have new batteries built after 11/8/2010. Does anyone know anything about these?


No, but good replacement battery source would be nice.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Geoman, what is going on? Almost two months and not a word. I bought the lights and in less than 90 days, you recalled batteries and one of my chargers died the day before. The original Geoman would have never left us hanging with no word. I am getting frustrated with this. I bough many things from Jay, because of his exemplary customer service. The cheap lights worried my, and I placed my trust in Geomangear. Now, where am I?


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

slocaus said:


> Geoman, what is going on? Almost two months and not a word. I bought the lights and in less than 90 days, you recalled batteries and one of my chargers died the day before. The original Geoman would have never left us hanging with no word. I am getting frustrated with this. I bough many things from Jay, because of his exemplary customer service. The cheap lights worried my, and I placed my trust in Geomangear. Now, where am I?


+2 - while your light-head replacement went w/out a hitch, I still need a battery...
An update saying where you guys are at would help.


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## 96m2comp (Oct 12, 2007)

This was posted about a week ago by a member on another forum stating he received an email from Geoman stating: 

"We are now in the testing phase of the new battery manufacturing. If all goes well and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission approves the replacement battery, we will be able to start production after the first of the year. It's going to be a really nice battery and a dramatic improvement over the current battery pack in terms of quality and performance. 

Please check our Recall webpage regularily for updates:"

I haven't received ONE email from Geoman YET regarding this recall. I even sent an email with my info to him when I first read about the recall to make sure he had it. Who has received an email from him?

Chris


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## siv (Aug 13, 2006)

Got mine about a month before the recall. Only reason I know about it because of these forums, thanks Geoman.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

He needs to post in this thread. He had the good service to start it, he needs to step up.

I never got an email. I forwarded my emailed confirmation of purchase, stating that I wanted to make certain I was on the list. He did respond to that, told me the list processor was working through the list. I never got an email. I have since sent two emails and been ignored. 

That is why I came back to this thread. I want and deserve accountability and answers.


----------



## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

96m2comp said:


> This was posted about a week ago by a member on another forum stating he received an email from Geoman stating:
> 
> "We are now in the testing phase of the new battery manufacturing. If all goes well and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission approves the replacement battery, we will be able to start production after the first of the year. It's going to be a really nice battery and a dramatic improvement over the current battery pack in terms of quality and performance.
> 
> ...


I received email after seeing this thread and emailing him to ask if he had my info. Still using my battery and charger (carefully) but want/need replacement that I know I don't have to worry about!


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

And yet here in the UK, Raleigh continue to sell the light as the Raleigh Special Products Astrum. No recall on the Magicshine, or the Astrum, or whaver other name the Magicshine sells under. And I would say that the UK is as tight on things of this nature than the US...

What problem? There never was a problem.


----------



## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

9speed said:


> And yet here in the UK, Raleigh continue to sell the light as the Raleigh Special Products Astrum. No recall on the Magicshine, or the Astrum, or whaver other name the Magicshine sells under. And I would say that the UK is as tight on things of this nature than the US...
> 
> What problem? There never was a problem.


Confirmed fires causing property damage is not a problem??

http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=recall

(underscored text is my addition)



> *3. What are the issues with the batteries?*
> We have received three reports of the original Magicshine MJ-808/MJ-818 battery pack (i.e., the one that is shrink-wrapped and enclosed in a nylon-velcro sleeve) overheating and causing fires. The fires have resulted in some property damage, but thankfully none of the reported incidents involved any personal injuries. Although we have not received any reports of overheating or fires associated with the Magicshine battery pack that is enclosed in a metal container inserted into a fabric sleeve (included with MJ-816 lightsets and more recent MJ-808 lightsets), we have the same safety concerns about the battery packs in the metal containers. Our engineering consultants have determined that these two Magicshine battery packs raise potential safety and reliability concerns (e.g., the inclusion of different lithium-ion cell models within the same battery pack).


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

slocaus said:


> Confirmed fires causing property damage is not a problem??
> 
> http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=recall
> 
> (underscored text is my addition)


Well obviously there is not an OFFICIAL problem, because Raleigh (bigger than Geoman) isn't issuing a recall. Nor has any official government body issued a recall. I just think you are all getting your panties in a twist over nothing. Maybe Geoman thought it best to offer a replacement batt pack just in case... Maybe Geoman wants to corner the market on Magicshines with better batt packs... but how many thousands of these lights have been sold? I would imagine Raleigh would have been the first to recall.. unless they specced their own battery pack. Looks the same though.


----------



## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

9speed said:


> Well obviously there is not an OFFICIAL problem, because Raleigh (bigger than Geoman) isn't issuing a recall. Nor has any official government body issued a recall. I just think you are all getting your panties in a twist over nothing. Maybe Geoman thought it best to offer a replacement batt pack just in case... Maybe Geoman wants to corner the market on Magicshines with better batt packs... but how many thousands of these lights have been sold? I would imagine Raleigh would have been the first to recall.. unless they specced their own battery pack. Looks the same though.


I do not think there is an International recall "program". In the USA we have the Consumer Product Safety Commission that is about as OFFICIAL as it gets for us, and it is involved in this recall. Most of us Americans take this seriously (the idea of a battery igniting in my back jersey pocket, or on the top tube of my bike, or in my house on the charger gives me some valid concerns).

Maybe the UK has something different. If you are not worried, go ride your bike, stop being a troll and looking for an argument.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

slocaus said:


> I do not think there is an International recall "program". In the USA we have the Consumer Product Safety Commission that is about as OFFICIAL as it gets for us, and it is involved in this recall. Most of us Americans take this seriously (the idea of a battery igniting in my back jersey pocket, or on the top tube of my bike, or in my house on the charger gives me some valid concerns).
> 
> Maybe the UK has something different. If you are not worried, go ride your bike, stop being a troll and looking for an argument.


From what I understand the CPS you mention isn't involved yet officially and they might not get involved in a recall at all.. Geoman informed the CPS that they (Geoman) wanted to recall not vice versa. Geoman asked that the CPS investigate...

My Magicshine battery pack doesn't even get warm when I charge it.

I am not being a troll. I am pointing out that this whole situation isn't really a situation at all........ yet. And it might never be one.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

9speed said:


> Well obviously there is not an OFFICIAL problem, because Raleigh (bigger than Geoman) isn't issuing a recall. Nor has any official government body issued a recall. I just think you are all getting your panties in a twist over nothing. Maybe Geoman thought it best to offer a replacement batt pack just in case... Maybe Geoman wants to corner the market on Magicshines with better batt packs... but how many thousands of these lights have been sold? I would imagine Raleigh would have been the first to recall.. unless they specced their own battery pack. Looks the same though.


Well, _my_ battery is OFFICIALLY whack - and I think the cause of my first lighthead burning out.

How about the others too (on this board) that have had their cells go unbalanced?


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

2 out of balance packs here.

If it walks like a duck and quakes like a duck, It's probably a troll, ummm, I mean duck.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

highdelll said:


> Well, _my_ battery is OFFICIALLY whack - and I think the cause of my first lighthead burning out.
> 
> How about the others too (on this board) that have had their cells go unbalanced?


It's my understanding that all packs of indiviual batteries will become unbalanced.

That's why some people place balancing leads inbetween parallel cells or individual cells.

I'm not saying that the batterypack with the magicshine was the best battery in the world. I'm just saying the fire issue is ovetrplayed I feel based on the weak circumstantial evidence given thus far. Also, out of balanced packs.... that's just a feature of lithium ion packs aint it?


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

9speed said:


> Also, out of balanced packs.... that's just a feature of lithium ion packs aint it?


Unbalancing (particularly one lame cell and one over-charged to compensate)is one of the first steps to thermal runaway aint it


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

highdelll said:


> Unbalancing (particularly one lame cell and one over-charged to compensate)is one of the first steps to thermal runaway aint it


...which is by no means an issue only associated with magicshine innit?

Nice try at patronising moi. Only I was using the slang aint in a knees up mother brown fashion innit.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

9speed said:


> ...which is by no means an issue only associated with magicshine innit?


There seems do be a disproportionate amount of these MS battery packs that are unbalanced - innit?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

9speed said:


> ...which is by no means an issue only associated with magicshine innit?
> 
> Nice try at patronising moi. Only I was using the slang aint in a knees up mother brown fashion innit.


So you must be a chinese manufacturer or a dealer making money from Magicshine since you want to downplay this so much and poo poo it as not a problem. What is your stake in this?


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

slocaus said:


> So you must be a chinese manufacturer or a dealer making money from Magicshine since you want to downplay this so much and poo poo it as not a problem. What is your stake in this?


None other than trying to keep a balanced perspective. These scare stories are scaring people away from a great little light. Unless there is real concern, this shouldn't be the case. I bought this light when they first started to be discussed on here. My magicshine or magicshine CLONE (same box, same design, but no magicshine logo on the box) has been fantastic.

I am currently shopping around for another light for my other bike... might try Gemini or Bikeray next... or maybe just another magicshine...


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

9speed said:


> None other than trying to keep a balanced perspective. These scare stories are scaring people away from a great little light. Unless there is real concern, this shouldn't be the case. I bought this light when they first started to be discussed on here. My magicshine or magicshine CLONE (same box, same design, but no magicshine logo on the box) has been fantastic.
> 
> I am currently shopping around for another light for my other bike... might try Gemini or Bikeray next... or maybe just another magicshine...


Are your light within the recall dates? Where did you buy it?


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

9speed said:


> None other than trying to keep a balanced perspective. *These scare stories are scaring people away from a great little light. Unless there is real concern, this shouldn't be the case.* I bought this light when they first started to be discussed on here. My magicshine or magicshine CLONE (same box, same design, but no magicshine logo on the box) has been fantastic.
> 
> I am currently shopping around for another light for my other bike... might try Gemini or Bikeray next... or maybe just another magicshine...


Scare stories??? WTF?
Why would any sane company VOLUNTARILY recall hundreds(thousands?) of batteries and end up loosing GOBS of $$ if there weren't a concern?


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

highdelll said:


> Scare stories??? WTF?
> Why would any sane company VOLUNTARILY recall hundreds(thousands?) of batteries and end up loosing GOBS of $$ if there weren't a concern?


Well, I don't know the answer to that question. Suffice to say that it isn't inconceivable that Geoman may benefit from being known as the sole US distributor of a 'safe' magicshine; the inference being of course that those sold through other channels are unsafe. Plus your sueing culture might have resulted in a risk assesment that concluded that replacement battery packs at the sellers expense was seen as a better prospect than paying out a horrendous figure should an horrendous fire occur.

I still think a lot of you are getting your panties in a twist over nowt much at all.

Currently this whole issue is a storm in a teacup.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

9speed said:


> ...
> I still think a lot of you are getting your panties in a twist over nowt much at all.


my "panties in a twist over not much at all"?

Did you miss the part where I said _I_ have a BAD battery?
or others?
:skep:

I guess having a defective part is no biggie to you.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

highdelll said:


> my "panties in a twist over not much at all"?
> 
> Did you miss the part where I said _I_ have a BAD battery?
> or others?
> ...


I guess it wouldn't be a biggie to me no. I've had the light about 1.5 years and (touch wood) it is still going strong. The light cost me about £60 including delivery from HK. A Lupine here in the UK costs 5 times that. I can buy 4 x 3000mAh name brand (Sony, Ultrafire etc) 18650 batteries for less than £20) and solder up my own pack.. or buy another MS pack for £30.... and I have still spent £200 less than a Lupine for essentially the same light.

I would still consider my Chinese 900L light to be a bargain even if the battery pack failed. Indeed, my charger no longer tells me the battery has charged, the LED stays red, but I don't feel cheated in any way. I still get almost 3 hours on high and 8 hours on low and 14 hours on flashing...

I'll be the first to eat my words if the pack catches fire. But even then, I wouldn't feel cheated. Concerned for others, but not cheated. Mine's been a little gem.

Now I like to buy British and Western whenever I can. Mavic, DT, Hope.. but I never saw the Magicshine as a Lupine copy. The fact it uses the same LED and looks similar is purely coincidental IMO.

Washing machines all look the same!


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## FreeGravey (Nov 10, 2010)

dont bother 9speed people on this an every other forum are easily influenced by "senior" members.


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## kev0153 (Sep 2, 2004)

sorry guys, new to the whole MS thing. I saw this light on ebay sold by Nova (seems he is a respectable dealer). Is this legit. He claims his batteries are better/safe.

Linky

Thanks for the info


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## sdcadbiker (Jun 20, 2008)

Kev, I'd wait for Geo to get the new battery pack sorted if I were you.
FYI, email from Geo:

_The "new" batteries offered by other Magicshine dealers have not been tested in the U.S. and in our opinion may not be an improvement in safety or performance.

We are now in the testing phase of the new battery manufacturing. If all goes well and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission approves the replacement battery, we will be able to start production after the first of the year. It's going to be a really nice battery and a dramatic improvement over the current battery pack in terms of quality and performance.

Please check our Recall webpage regularily for updates:
http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=recall

Thanks,
Geoman
_


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## Maximus_XXIV (Jun 7, 2009)

At this point, it is not a recall since he has not recalled anything. It is just a warning that the batteries should not be used. It is a very disorganized recall.


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## osteo (Sep 9, 2010)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> At this point, it is not a recall since he has not recalled anything. It is just a warning that the batteries should not be used. It is a very disorganized recall.


And THAT is a very interesting point.

D


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## Grunion (Feb 28, 2007)

Got my Batteries from Pat at Ballistic yesterday he made me some 7800mah pack we will see how they do. They are supposed to be a much nicer cell. I plugged them in and the light seems much brighter if thats possible.


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## damnilocano (Oct 23, 2009)

Grunion said:


> Got my Batteries from Pat at Ballistic yesterday he made me some 7800mah pack we will see how they do. They are supposed to be a much nicer cell. I plugged them in and the light seems much brighter if thats possible.


How much did it cost? If reasonable, I probably won't wait for the new battery from Geoman.


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## osteo (Sep 9, 2010)

damnilocano said:


> How much did it cost? If reasonable, I probably won't wait for the new battery from Geoman.


+ 1, but interested in your thoughts and review - also about the charger, etc...

I'm not doing any night riding up here right now so can wait though... riding outside in -20C is not my kind of fun!

D


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

I'm eyeing that Magicshine battery with the alu case and fuel gauge. Some place online is doing them for $35 landed. I figure even if it had crap cells, the aluminum case and electronics can be rebuilt with good cells and still have a sweet battery.

For now, my homebrew 2 cell light battery for the helmet light is working fine, and my 4 cell stock magicshine pack is working. I still have one dead Magicshine battery I would like to replace. I'm just taking extra care to recharge my one good MS battery in a metal case or a ceramic flower pot outside my back door. I think the risk is minimal if precautions are taken.

It would be nice if Geoman got a solution for us on this, but honestly... I feel like I got such a good deal on the light kit that having to shell out more money for a battery pack and possibly a better charger, I'm still coming out way ahead.

I feel way less hosed than I did with my NiteRider halogen lights and their frickin' $170 3 pound battery pack (and no, I didn't pay it. I rebuilt it myself for good percentage of the money I paid for the whole Magicshine kit... and my two Magicshines kick out way more light than my two NiteRiders and with 3 times the runtime. Not bagging on NiteRider so much. LEDs are just that much better all around. LEDs are so much more efficient that you only need 1/3 the battery as a halogen, saving weight and cost. I'm really stoked that we finally have an affordable light that works really well, and I can't believe the expense what we used to put up with just to do a night ride.


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

I'm not sure I like the aluminium battery with the blue backlight.

Is it too big to hang from the handlebar?

I hear some of the DX magicshines now no longer have a fuel guage colour change switch?!

Wheras the new 3 and 4 mode magicshines do....


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Dunno...*



9speed said:


> I'm not sure I like the aluminium battery with the blue backlight.
> 
> Is it too big to hang from the handlebar?
> 
> ...


I strap my battery to the underside of the top tube anyway. Not enough room on my stem for the strap because my Garmin GPS mount is in the way.

I just like the idea of having a better fuel gauge. I also like that you can get to the cells inside for future replacement (I think).


----------



## ltspd1 (Nov 25, 2007)

kev0153 said:


> sorry guys, new to the whole MS thing. I saw this light on ebay sold by Nova (seems he is a respectable dealer). Is this legit. He claims his batteries are better/safe.
> 
> Linky
> 
> Thanks for the info


I bought two lights from this guy a few months ago. Have charged them up and used them about five times, and so far I'm very satisfied. I know another guy who did the same and has used them many more times than I....he's happy too.


----------



## Grunion (Feb 28, 2007)

osteo said:


> I'd be interested in this :thumbsup: I've got some 24hr races coming up this season.
> 
> Thanks,
> D


OK first run on the new Balistic pack ran for 5 hours on high with my 1400 with all the lights on. Pat said they should see even better times after about 6 cycles.

Here is a link to his site.
http://www.ballisticbatteries.com/Ballistic_Batteries_Home_Page.cfm


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

Grunion said:


> OK first run on the new Balistic pack ran for 5 hours on high with my 1400 with all the lights on. Pat said they should see even better times after about 6 cycles.
> 
> Here is a link to his site.
> http://www.ballisticbatteries.com/Ballistic_Batteries_Home_Page.cfm


Nice! Did you get the stock, upgrade, or super version?


----------



## damnilocano (Oct 23, 2009)

ajmelin said:


> Nice! Did you get the stock, upgrade, or super version?


And, does it work with the old charger?

I wonder if they'll do discounts for a group buy.


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## J_Hopper (Mar 5, 2005)

Grunion,

I visited the Ballistic Battery website and found they are offering a hand-built by them replacement for the MS battery with the original connector. It's only $40. They claim it's the same size and the same capacity. Seems like a good deal to me. I'd also think the original charger would work as well.

I'm in no hurry as I now have a Baja Designs Strykr. While I believe Geoman will make good on the recall, if he doesn't this is definitely an option to look at. The MS light head is just too good to not spend $40 to make it work right.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

J_Hopper said:


> While I believe Geoman will make good on the recall, if he doesn't this is definitely an option to look at. The MS light head is just too good to not spend $40 to make it work right.


I hope, but I am loosing faith. I got to know Jay, the original GeoMan pretty well, bought quite a bit from him, and worked with him on GPSs. Almost did an associate deal with him on product. Now I am glad I did not, since the new guy is proving very irresponsible in not responding to emails or post here. :bluefrown:


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

and the magicshine non-issue continues.


----------



## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

J_Hopper said:


> Grunion,
> 
> I visited the Ballistic Battery website and found they are offering a hand-built by them replacement for the MS battery with the original connector. It's only $40. They claim it's the same size and the same capacity. Seems like a good deal to me. I'd also think the original charger would work as well.
> 
> I'm in no hurry as I now have a Baja Designs Strykr. While I believe Geoman will make good on the recall, if he doesn't this is definitely an option to look at. The MS light head is just too good to not spend $40 to make it work right.


I have friends who have bought RC batteries from this guy and they are good batteries at a good price.  I agree that the MS light-head is too good not to spend a little money for a new battery and be able to use your light. :thumbsup:


----------



## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

9speed said:


> and the magicshine non-issue continues.


----------



## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

Yep, not really an issue for me. That battery for $40 looks pretty good, and would look even better if they can spell right...would make me more confident buying something from them. But for now my batteries continue to work fine. I charge them in the garage on a concrete floor away from any flammable materials, and never overnight. I then unplug and store the batteries in a metal bucket when not in use. If/when the batteries start to go downhill, I'll likely purchase an entire kit from Gemini Lights.


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## J_Hopper (Mar 5, 2005)

9speed said:


> and the magicshine non-issue continues.


Non-issue? I haven't had any _safety_ problems with my MS, but 30 mins on high with a full charge is definitely an issue. Especially after less than 60 rechargings, regular weekly use/charging, and not abusing it...


----------



## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

J_Hopper said:


> Non-issue? I haven't had any _safety_ problems with my MS, but 30 mins on high with a full charge is definitely an issue. Especially after less than 60 rechargings, regular weekly use/charging, and not abusing it...


He suffers from severe recto-cranial inversion; does not think that fires causing property damage are an issue. There are exchanges above where he says that. He is a troll in most all the light threads for the last few months, if you search his posts.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

slocaus said:


> I hope, but I am loosing faith. I got to know Jay, the original GeoMan pretty well, bought quite a bit from him, and worked with him on GPSs. Almost did an associate deal with him on product. Now I am glad I did not, since the new guy is proving very irresponsible in not responding to emails or post here. :bluefrown:


I hate to say this but I'm almost to the point where I have to agree with what you are saying. I hate to dis Geoman but it has been some time since the ( dealer inspired ) recall was made. ( no recall was offered by MagicShine ) Now if you're going to recall something then you need to replace it with something else. You can only make the customer wait so long. In the mean time other dealers are offering cheap lights with better batteries ( compatible with the MS ). I think the Geoman customers have waited long enough. You can only be patient for so long before you realize it is time to cut your losses and move on.


----------



## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

slocaus said:


> .... since the new guy is proving very irresponsible in not responding to emails or post here. :bluefrown:


I have emailed Geomangear multiple times with questions since the recall began, and have always recieved prompt replies. I've used the "contact us" link on their website.


----------



## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

ajmelin said:


> I have emailed Geomangear multiple times with questions since the recall began, and have always recieved prompt replies. I've used the "contact us" link on their website.


He responded to my first email about the recall, I forwarded my MS lights purchase receipt to make sure I was on it, and he replied. I have since sent three more and two from the website. Nothing.


----------



## Jdub (Jan 12, 2004)

slocaus said:


> I hope, but I am loosing faith.


Agreed. I understand the aspect of "these things take time", but the announcement followed by a couple months of silence does not inspire confidence in me. I read that the best place to get updates was the twitter account, so I followed GeoManGear on there. So far I've seen lots of posts about their race team.

I'm thinking now that its a "get what you paid for" type of thing and just buy a full replacement system.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV (Jun 7, 2009)

Geoman is burning all the goodwill earned up until this year. They almost seem to have bailed on the lights at this point. I for one have moved on from them. This is not support, it is silence during the heavy season of bike lights.


----------



## jsg (May 26, 2005)

9speed said:


> And yet here in the UK, Raleigh continue to sell the light as the Raleigh Special Products Astrum. No recall on the Magicshine, or the Astrum, or whaver other name the Magicshine sells under. And I would say that the UK is as tight on things of this nature than the US...
> 
> What problem? There never was a problem.


When I do a search on the Raleigh Special Products Astrum, it looks nothing like the Magicshine LED headlight, its a taillight.

http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b64s39p1824


----------



## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

Now it's clear why other lights cost so much more.

I look at Magicshine as a hobby-hacker light. You buy it knowing it's marginal and SOLD AS IS.

If you are willing to accept this, great, otherwise,,,,,,nevermind.

If you order batteries and parts from the web and build your own, you have nobody to complain to, so why worry if you buy a light cheaper than even doing that? Just accept the risk and act like you built it yourself....and treat it that way in keeping the safety margin such that if it catches on fire, it won't burn down the house.


----------



## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

jsg said:


> When I do a search on the Raleigh Special Products Astrum, it looks nothing like the Magicshine LED headlight, its a taillight.
> 
> https://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b64s39p1824


AND, that light looks EXACTLY (minus non-diffused lens) like my Serfas tl-200 - great light BTW

Astrum









Serfas TL-200


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

jsg said:


> When I do a search on the Raleigh Special Products Astrum, it looks nothing like the Magicshine LED headlight, its a taillight.
> 
> http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b64s39p1824


Astrum is the rear. Asteri is the front. Astrum rear is one hell of a rear light btw as said above..

Asteri Pro 900 is the magicshine......

If there'd ever been a problem you think Raleigh wouldn't have acted?

There never was a magicshine issue, and who the feck is Geoman anyway? A lupine dealer?

http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+...+Asteri+Pro+900+Lumen+Front+Light_LAA9000.htm


----------



## finny1999 (Aug 11, 2007)

It's been just over 2 months since the voluntary recall was announced. I'm sure a fair amount of budgeting, r&d, cost analysis, safety approvals and so on must be completed before shipping new batteries. 

The only announcement left to be made it when replacement batteries are ready to be shipped, do people expect a daily update on every detail of the replacement process?

If your in dire need of your replacement battery $40 shouldn't break the bank and when the batteries are ready from geoman you have a spare. 

Geoman still has a business to run and I'm sure there's a lot of business aspects that need to be taken into consideration with something as a voluntary recall. As much as it may suck to have to wait for a battery, I would think it would be better to wait then have one less vendor due to financial or safety issues being rushed or mishandled.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV (Jun 7, 2009)

Many other dealers are popping up with alternatives so I would expect Geoman to be able to do it as well. The point is not $$ it is service. I do not expect daily updates but I do expect time lines. Again, these are batteries using off the shelf components, not new technology.


----------



## Grunion (Feb 28, 2007)

J_Hopper said:


> Grunion,
> 
> I visited the Ballistic Battery website and found they are offering a hand-built by them replacement for the MS battery with the original connector. It's only $40. They claim it's the same size and the same capacity. Seems like a good deal to me. I'd also think the original charger would work as well.
> 
> I'm in no hurry as I now have a Baja Designs Strykr. While I believe Geoman will make good on the recall, if he doesn't this is definitely an option to look at. The MS light head is just too good to not spend $40 to make it work right.


The batteries Pat made me are larger capacity I believe he put both packs on his website but I am not sure. Call him he will make anything Its what he does. Also he is a MTBer like us so he gets it. Oh and yes my stock charger works but Pat is bringing me a different one Just For piece of mind.


----------



## Jdub (Jan 12, 2004)

finny1999 said:


> do people expect a daily update on every detail of the replacement process?


Has there been any update since the "recall" was announced?


----------



## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

Just a little update for our STR friends, we are working with a US battery pack manufacturer who is located in SoCal. We are having an intelligent battery produced with the best components available, sorry it's taking so long we are expediting the process as much as possible. We can't provide the date of the availability of the new GeoManGear battery pack as it depends on testing and approval. Also we have been busy testing new products in the last few months and plan to have some items of interest on our site before the end of the month. Again, we are sincerely sorry for the inconvenience that the Magicshine battery issue has caused.

This was taken off another website STR
Soon we will have new batteries.


----------



## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

finny1999 said:


> It's been just over 2 months since the voluntary recall was announced. I'm sure a fair amount of budgeting, r&d, cost analysis, safety approvals and so on must be completed before shipping new batteries.
> 
> The only announcement left to be made it when replacement batteries are ready to be shipped, do people expect a daily update on every detail of the replacement process?


No, but responses to emails from those with recalled batteries and failed chargers would be good. A post here that things are in process would restore trust.



> Geoman still has a business to run and I'm sure there's a lot of business aspects that need to be taken into consideration with something as a voluntary recall. As much as it may suck to have to wait for a battery, I would think it would be better to wait then have one less vendor due to financial or safety issues being rushed or mishandled.


I probably spent $500 - $800 to with GeoMan in the past five years. The company has lost my trust, and I will not buy from them again. Ignoring your old customers is bad business, since you loose their dollars and the referrals to friends.

Again, Jay who started GeoMan (lost a battle to cancer), would have never run the company like this, and been posting about riding bikes on Twitter and Facebook and not responding to customers. Part of my frustration in this is sadness of seeing the good will he created being squandered, may he rest in peace.


----------



## BallisticBatteries (Oct 28, 2006)

Hi,
Twoheadsbrewing--I fixed spelling. Thats what i get for working to late at night. Any questions you guys have feel free to email or call me .

Patrick


----------



## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

BallisticBatteries said:


> Hi,
> Twoheadsbrewing--I fixed spelling. Thats what i get for working to late at night. Any questions you guys have feel free to email or call me .
> 
> Patrick


Looks good Patrick! Sorry if I missed it before, but is there an estimated run time for this battery? And does it work with the Magicshine charger? And is it a Li-Ion, Li-Poly, etc?


----------



## kev0153 (Sep 2, 2004)

There is an option to buy a charger.


----------



## Jdub (Jan 12, 2004)

Rakuman said:


> Just a little update for our STR friends,


What is STR?

Also why not put this up on their recall page? I'd prefer to see an update of "We are still working on it, but don't have any firm dates" then the radio silence I've seen thus far.

I too have sent several emails to GeoMan that have gone unacknowledged which has added to my frustration.


----------



## kev0153 (Sep 2, 2004)

STR... maybe this?

http://www.socaltrailriders.org/

SoCal Trail Riders. Maybe it was a copy and paste post from that site to this one?


----------



## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

lidarman said:


> Now it's clear why other lights cost so much more.
> 
> I look at Magicshine as a hobby-hacker light. You buy it knowing it's marginal and SOLD AS IS.
> 
> ...


Yes, so if you have a light with problems, either build your own pack and buy a charger (if your charger is bad) or buy a pre-built replacement pack from Ballistic Batteries....it's not that difficult and I wouldn't wait for the entire night riding season to pass us by when there are other battery options out there for a nice headlight.


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Just how hard was it to order replacement cells from one of the GOOD li-ion makers like Sanyo or Panasonic, and then re-wire the recalled packs and re-dip them in shrink wrap? As to fires burning down houses... there was ONE fire reported, on here... it was confined to a space in a kitchen that looked to me like it was designed for a fridge or a pantry or something... a li-ion igniting on its own won't burn very far unless its surrounded with other combustibles, and the original li-ion packs don't like immersion in water as I recall as it can short-circuit the batteries. Anyone else ever put their camelbak bladder down in such a way that you pinched the valve open and it leaked? Guess what might happen if the battery pack for your MS light was attached to the shoulder strap NEXT to that leaking bladder valve.


----------



## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

Little of topic - Anybody know why GeoMan quit selling GPS's. I was looking for a GPS and remembered that is how he(they) got his(their) start. Was suprised to find out that they don't sell GPS's any longer.




****


----------



## BallisticBatteries (Oct 28, 2006)

Yes they work with the MagicShine charger.The big capacity pack gets you roughly 6 hours of run time on high setting.


----------



## ghawk (Sep 14, 2007)

BallisticBatteries said:


> Yes they work with the MagicShine charger.The big capacity pack gets you roughly 6 hours of run time on high setting.


That is pretty great run time. For a few of us weight weenies out there what is the weight of the batteries and could you add that to the listings.

Thanks for the great options Ballistic. Btw, i have 2 grad degrees and still can't speell ethiier !


----------



## ThumperGary (Oct 3, 2010)

BallisticBatteries said:


> Yes they work with the MagicShine charger.The big capacity pack gets you roughly 6 hours of run time on high setting.


Sweet - found your site - I will be ordering 2 battery packs


----------



## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Hi all

Just a little update, we have been working very diligently on the remedy for the last few months. We are receiving hundreds of emails each day and are trying to address each one individually, if your correspondence has been overlooked please email directly to [email protected]

We are now in the testing phase of the new battery manufacturing. If all 
goes well and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission approves the 
replacement battery, we will be able to start production soon. It's going to be a really nicely designed battery and a dramatic improvement over the current battery pack in terms of quality and performance.

We can't release dates right now until we are fully approved to rollout the
recall and remedy, the flow on information is due to begin very soon.

We will have some new products on the website within a few weeks which we have been
testing for a few months that may be of interest to you.

Thanks again for your support we are working on this and expediting the 
recall wherever possible. See our recall page for the most recent info.



finny1999 said:


> It's been just over 2 months since the voluntary recall was announced. I'm sure a fair amount of budgeting, r&d, cost analysis, safety approvals and so on must be completed before shipping new batteries.
> 
> The only announcement left to be made it when replacement batteries are ready to be shipped, do people expect a daily update on every detail of the replacement process?
> 
> ...


----------



## tscheezy (Dec 19, 2003)

Thanks for the update. :thumbsup: I figured this would take a while and I frankly have never seen a recall situation where some folks didn't poop little green apples. :lol:


----------



## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

We are really sorry it is taking so long, since we are a small company it is consuming all of our resources on a daily basis. Wheels are turning behind the scenes and we are making progress.



tscheezy said:


> Thanks for the update. :thumbsup: I figured this would take a while and I frankly have never seen a recall situation where some folks didn't poop little green apples. :lol:


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

GEOMAN said:


> We are really sorry it is taking so long, since we are a small company it is consuming all of our resources on a daily basis. Wheels are turning behind the scenes and we are making progress.


on the non-issue magicshine battery 'problem'...


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

Grunion said:


> The batteries Pat made me are larger capacity I believe he put both packs on his website but I am not sure. Call him he will make anything Its what he does. Also he is a MTBer like us so he gets it. Oh and yes my stock charger works but Pat is bringing me a different one Just For piece of mind.


In the UK ebay seller sub66 (who sell a D bin magicshine alternative called the grenade) have a 6.6Ah 3p2s MS replacement pack for £35


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

9speed said:


> on the non-issue magicshine battery 'problem'...


 TROLL


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

Rakuman said:


> TROLL


LOL

Just calling it as I see it

Raleigh have not issued a recall. They dwarf Geoman. You'd have thought a problem would have been picked up by them. The USA isn't the centre of the universe. The UK hasn't issued a recall. Europe hasn't issued a recall.... Raleigh hasn't issued a recall on its rebadged magicshine.. and yet there is this little US Lupine dealer, with a magicshine recall....

Just think it's all terribly fishy and/or knee-jerk...


----------



## ctxcrossx (Jan 13, 2004)

9speed said:


> on the non-issue magicshine battery 'problem'...


Isn't that getting a little old?


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

ctxcrossx said:


> Isn't that getting a little old?


what? the problem that only a few people had? Yes it is.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

9speed said:


> LOL
> 
> Just calling it as I see it
> 
> ...


Do you work for Raleigh or is it the just the furor or nationalism that drives you?

Just because Raleigh has not recalled them has no meaning here in this country. Just because UK or Europe has not recalled them has no meaning in this country.

I cannot even find that Raleigh sells those accessories in the USA. Raleigh is a very minor seller on this side of the pond. Europe is not the center of the universe for us.

This is a USA issue, TROLL.


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

9speed said:


> what? the problem that only a few people had? Yes it is.


Its a problem that is big enough for a SMALL company to recall probably 1000+ batteries at a cost who knows how much, and replace then with good ones, I will stand buy the company that does his customers right.


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## Jdub (Jan 12, 2004)

GEOMAN said:


> Hi all
> 
> Just a little update


Thank you for this. All I really wanted to know is that things were still happening behind the scenes.


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

slocaus said:


> Do you work for Raleigh or is it the just the furor or nationalism that drives you?
> 
> Just because Raleigh has not recalled them has no meaning here in this country. Just because UK or Europe has not recalled them has no meaning in this country.
> 
> ...


Hilarious! Raleigh is big in the USA.

Raleigh sells the magicshine in the UK and Europe as the Asteri 900

I am not trolling.. just somewhat confused. I don't even know if my light is a magicshine. Same box. Same graphics. Same light. Same battery pack... same everything.. yet no battery problem for me... 8 hours on low.. 3 hours on high, and I have had it over a year.... and I have over charged it 3 times...

I am just suspicious. Cos I just am. Having said that, I like the advice that 'Geoman' gave me in the Bike Ray III thread.. just what I wanted to hear... if I had a Geoman in the Uk I'd probably buy from them also.. but I am still somewhat suspcicious.. and I still think it is a non issue given the cheapness of the light. I mean, for feck sake, it's a lupine at 1/6 of the cost...


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

9speed said:


> I mean, for feck sake, it's a lupine at 1/6 of the cost...


....and with that statement, everyone who works for or owns a Lupine just fell backwards in their chair and is Laughing their *** off....but seriously, so far I have agreed with most of what you're saying. It's time to start prodding Geoman to get the ball rolling with this so called, "recall" business. I'm sure if he wanted to he could just as well ditch MS and start selling any of the other so-called MS clones that have batteries compatible with the MS product. If he did that he could offer batteries to whoever he wanted to. To me it looks as though he's haggling over the battery issue longer than necessary. With all the clone products floating around I really can't understand the delay with a new battery. Others are not having problems with getting new batteries, why is Geoman?

In the meantime ( _please _) lets try to keep the name of Lupine out of this sub $100 light bashing thread.


----------



## Chromagftw (Feb 12, 2009)

9speed said:


> Raleigh is big in the USA.


I just had to! Raleigh's Chopper was my very first bike that had gears


----------



## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

9speed said:


> Hilarious! Raleigh is big in the USA.
> 
> Raleigh sells the magicshine in the UK and Europe as the Asteri 900
> 
> ...


How do you over charge the battery?


----------



## Maximus_XXIV (Jun 7, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> ....and with that statement, everyone who works for or owns a Lupine just fell backwards in their chair and is Laughing their *** off....but seriously, so far I have agreed with most of what you're saying. It's time to start prodding Geoman to get the ball rolling with this so called, "recall" business. I'm sure if he wanted to he could just as well ditch MS and start selling any of the other so-called MS clones that have batteries compatible with the MS product. If he did that he could offer batteries to whoever he wanted to. To me it looks as though he's haggling over the battery issue longer than necessary. With all the clone products floating around I really can't understand the delay with a new battery. Others are not having problems with getting new batteries, why is Geoman?
> 
> In the meantime ( _please _) lets try to keep the name of Lupine out of this sub $100 light bashing thread.


I agree it is a little fishy. 2 statements in this thread by Geoman do not add up. They are a small company with their resources being consumed daily by the battery issue yet they have been testing new products these same last few months and will be releasing them soon. It sounds like they are working about 100 hours per day.


----------



## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> I agree it is a little fishy. 2 statements in this thread by Geoman do not add up. They are a small company with their resources being consumed daily by the battery issue yet they have been testing new products these same last few months and will be releasing them soon. It sounds like they are working about 100 hours per day.


WTF do you want him to say then?


Testing could mean charging and discharging several batteries, measuring for anomalies (unbalanced cells), etc...
This could be done by one person - even testing 100 bats a day over 40 hrs a week is easy.

No doubt they get hundreds of calls and emails weekly - answering them all takes forever!!

PLUS they have to work with the CPSC - which last time I looked, is a US Gov't operation


----------



## EMrider (Sep 9, 2007)

This thread is one of many examples why companies should not 'interact' with customers via internet message boards.

R


----------



## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> I agree it is a little fishy. 2 statements in this thread by Geoman do not add up. They are a small company with their resources being consumed daily by the battery issue yet they have been testing new products these same last few months and will be releasing them soon. It sounds like they are working about 100 hours per day.


Not really, if you have ever worked for a small company you know that sometimes, just to survive you have to put in some insane hours. I would imagine that for Geoman, this is one of those times. Still a non-issue for me, BTW. I have a battery over a year old and it still pumps out at least 2 hours on high. The newer one I got in October is just under 3 hours on high.


----------



## larlev (Feb 22, 2009)

EMrider said:


> This thread is one of many examples why companies should not 'interact' with customers via internet message boards.
> 
> R


Agreed...some customers haven't a clue.


----------



## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

EMrider said:


> This thread is one of many examples why companies should not 'interact' with customers via internet message boards.
> 
> R


Wow someone that finally gets it Bravo :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Rakuman said:


> Wow someone that finally gets it Bravo :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


hey man, noticed your S/N, you do ceramics?


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

EMrider said:


> This thread is one of many examples why companies should not 'interact' with customers via internet message boards.
> 
> R


Why is that?
I think it's great that companies can engage with their consumers.


----------



## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

highdelll said:


> hey man, noticed your S/N, you do ceramics?


yes I do Google K.C. Klug and you will see some of my older works


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Rakuman said:


> yes I do Google K.C. Klug and you will see some of my older works


Nice work man!
I did some disc golf discs for trophies you might've liked (with your platter work and all) - I have no pics online - but yours are just phenomenal...
I have just a smitten of my work online
Here's my ceramics - all Raku 'cept for "twisted" (obviously) which was done in the kiln behind me in my avatar.
















If you'd like, you could back out of that page to see some other stuff in other mediums.

Once again - great work :thumbsup:


----------



## steveh250 (Dec 27, 2010)

I had one of those in a five speed - my brother had a Grifter. (I'm getting old.)



Chromagftw said:


> I just had to! Raleigh's Chopper was my very first bike that had gears


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

EMrider said:


> This thread is one of many examples why companies should not 'interact' with customers via internet message boards.
> 
> R


Oh, I wouldn't go quite that far. However if you had said, _"This thread is one of many examples why *SOME* companies should not interact with customers via internet message boards"_, I would tend to agree. _If you're going to make promises to the peeps, then make sure those promises you keeps._ :ihih:

I think some very important guidelines for vendors/companies to use when using a message board are: First, Don't make promises you don't intend to keep in a timely manner. Secondly, refrain from starting too many of your own threads. If someone wants to talk about your products, let the posters start the threads. If a vendor starts too many threads it really does start to look spammy ( and that tends to annoy people ). Lastly, if problems arise from one of your products, don't fade into the woodwork by not responding to posts aimed at your products. Please do defend your products or you will lose your fan base real quick. If you're going to give a solution to a problem be ready to give details. If someone is going to have to wait months before an issue is resolved they are going to want to know WHY ( in detail ). If you can't stand by your products then it is probably not a good idea to chat-it-up too much on the message board. My two cents for what it's worth.


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

gticlay said:


> How do you over charge the battery?


I left it charging for over a day because I forgot about it....


----------



## smace (Sep 4, 2010)

Just thought I would post this. I ordered a light from GEOMAN last year and needed the 1400 for a race coming up to mount on my handle bars. I have to say I was a little gun shy at pulling the trigger and ordering from him again, but I felt like it was the best place to get the extra light since he was the US distributor.

I placed my order and just like last time it shipped same day. My light should be here Monday. It was nice to see a update from GEOMAN himself. I look forward to riding the 12 hours of Santos with my new light setup.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

I dunno though.. I mean you US types must be pretty tight... cos we pay twice as much as you do in the UK, yet our houses are half to a third of the size of yours, and everything we buy costs twice as much... and yet you still couldn't support your own industries...


----------



## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Hey Maximus, nothing fishy, the recall involves a ton of red tape, correspondence with existing and new customers has increased, technology has improved and we have been testing new products for 2011. We want to make sure that we are testing anything on the trail that we intend to sell, this includes future lightheads and batteries. There are new products hitting the market and we take a look at many of them.



Maximus_XXIV said:


> I agree it is a little fishy. 2 statements in this thread by Geoman do not add up. They are a small company with their resources being consumed daily by the battery issue yet they have been testing new products these same last few months and will be releasing them soon. It sounds like they are working about 100 hours per day.


----------



## larlev (Feb 22, 2009)

9speed said:


> I dunno though.. I mean you US types must be pretty tight... cos we pay twice as much as you do in the UK, yet our houses are half to a third of the size of yours, and everything we buy costs twice as much... and yet you still couldn't support your own industries...


****....you know how much money we send your way every year in aid. Support what industries....explain that


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Kinda....*



lidarman said:


> Now it's clear why other lights cost so much more.
> 
> I look at Magicshine as a hobby-hacker light. You buy it knowing it's marginal and SOLD AS IS.
> 
> ...


... the way I saw mine too. I mean, Geoman service is a plus, tho! :thumbsup:

I was actually working on a DIY light head when the MS light hit. When the MS light was available, I felt kinda silly for putting in as many hours as I did since this was way nicer and better than anything I could have made myself, and I already blew more money on my DIY light.

I would actually be using my MS if I could just get out for a night ride! IMO (and YMMV) I'm personally not overly concerned with the dangers of spontaneous battery combustion. I just keep it on the bike in a spot where it won't catch anything on fire, and I can jump off the bike and deal with it if it does. I charge it in a ceramic flower pot out my back door.

Between sick kids, sick me, busy wife, and no other time on my hands, I'm going insane not getting out for a good spin in the dark. :madman: Not going to let the light stop me.

I always ride with two lights, and a small LED flashlight in the Camelbak. If a light fails on me on the trail, I won't be screwed.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Jun 7, 2009)

Geoman statement 1:

We are really sorry it is taking so long, since we are a small company it is consuming all of our resources on a daily basis. Wheels are turning behind the scenes and we are making progress.

Geoman statement 2:

We will have some new products on the website within a few weeks which we have been
testing for a few months that may be of interest.

These statements are not compatible. They could be marketing hype but they are not compatible.


----------



## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Geoman statement 1:
> 
> We are really sorry it is taking so long, since we are a small company it is consuming all of our resources on a daily basis. Wheels are turning behind the scenes and we are making progress.
> 
> ...


This is exactly why Geoman in my opinion should not post except small updates on the recall, he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, Some people will find something negative in anything he says right now, remember guys its just a battery and it sounds like he is not going to give us a POS chinese replacement. 
I know if I was in a similar position as geoman I would be doing exactly what he is doing, this replacement recall has got to be costing a boatload of time and money and some just don't get that these kind of things take time. 
just imagine that each new battery costs him $15 bucks to manufacture and x that by 1000 plus that's going to add up to a healthy chunk of money, seeing that he is getting these packs made here in So Cal I'm sure he is going to pay more than $15 bucks
If you are not night riding right now either by carefully charging your old battery or finding a replacement, that's your problem that easily solved buy investing $40 bucks on a new battery then when you get your battery replaced by geoman you will have a spare, I never go out without a extra pack in the camelback.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

Well said Rakuman. 

Maximus: Do you think the people at Geoman have time to use the restroom while at work?


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Rakuman said:


> This is exactly why Geoman in my opinion should not post except small updates on the recall, he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, Some people will find something negative in anything he says right now, remember guys its just a battery and it sounds like he is not going to give us a POS chinese replacement.
> I know if I was in a similar position as geoman I would be doing exactly what he is doing, this replacement recall has got to be costing a boatload of time and money and some just don't get that these kind of things take time.
> just imagine that each new battery costs him $15 bucks to manufacture and x that by 1000 plus that's going to add up to a healthy chunk of money, seeing that he is getting these packs made here in So Cal I'm sure he is going to pay more than $15 bucks
> If you are not night riding right now either by carefully charging your old battery or finding a replacement, that's your problem that easily solved by investing $40 bucks on a new battery then when you get your battery replaced by geoman you will have a spare, I never go out without a extra pack in the camelback.


Yes, very well said. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Geoman statement 1:
> 
> We are really sorry it is taking so long, since we are a small company it is consuming all of our resources on a daily basis. Wheels are turning behind the scenes and we are making progress.
> 
> ...





GEOMAN said:


> The Bike Ray III is really nice, lightweight, has a 20 degree lens for nice flood on the bars. Triple XPG provides longer burntime on the same battery as a P7. :thumbsup:


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Geoman statement 1:
> 
> We are really sorry it is taking so long, since we are a small company it is consuming all of our resources on a daily basis. Wheels are turning behind the scenes and we are making progress.
> 
> ...


Exactly how so?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

GEOMAN said:


> Hey Maximus, nothing fishy, the recall involves a ton of red tape, correspondence with existing and new customers has increased, technology has improved and we have been testing new products for 2011. We want to make sure that we are testing anything on the trail that we intend to sell, this includes future lightheads and batteries. There are new products hitting the market and we take a look at many of them.


:yawn: zzzzzZZZZzzzz  .zzzZZzz :yawn: ...* _Thud _*... ...*Huh*...did someone just say something significant about the new battery replacement or did I just wake up for nothing? Oh darn it, just someone throwing me another dead fish. That's the funny thing about fish. The longer they sit out the more they begin to stink. ( *Prod* ) Unfortunately I don't think the stink will go away until the new replacement batteries arrive. Please, no more bones ( or dead fish ) until then...I need my beauty sleep. :yawn: Oh, before I doze off, the Gemini light looks like it has a nice battery and is compatible with the MS....:yawn: ...back to my winter hibernation sleep.....wake me when the new battery arrives....:yawn: ......zzzZZZZzzz  . . .


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## Maximus_XXIV (Jun 7, 2009)

I have been involved in drug recalls. I know how recalls work. I also know how public statements need to be weighed. I would be willing to bet that working with FDA just as or more taxing than the Consumer Protection Agency.

I really do not care about the batteries. I have since replaced the non working one and have bought a few new lights. I have spent quite a bit of money with them though.

How much are they working with the government? There is no recall on any other light other than ones sold by Geoman. If this were being pushed by the government you would see all the US resellers pulling them.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Jun 7, 2009)

highdelll said:


> Exactly how so?


Define "all our resources".


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Is the Piko battery not a candidate for the replacement? I think it just needs an interconnect cable?


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## Maximus_XXIV (Jun 7, 2009)

There are a bunch out there. I picked up some lights with the same connector to use with the MS rear lights.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Define "all our resources".


I apologize sir or madam.
I understand that common English is not spoken by everyone.
I did not mean to confuse you.

You see*, (*not saying that you actually have visual input to your brain), the term (we're using) "all our resources" is an English "colloquialism' for 'we're doing all we can do pertaining to this particular issue'.
It does not mean that they are literally using everything that they own or have access too.

For instance, a fire-house contains a lot of things; couches, a ping-pong table, coffee maker, toilet paper and also some fire engines....plus many more things that make up all of their 'resources'.

If your house was burning down, should a fire company "using all it's resources" bring their internet router, oven mitts and fire trucks? - or just their fire trucks...

The answer is 'Just their fire trucks'.
Why? Because a refrigerator just sucks at stopping fire and it's heavy...


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## POG (May 20, 2004)

I very much appreciate Geoman throwing us a crumb to keep hope alive.


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

I checked the recall page on Geomans website and found this new to me info
Quote 
7. Other Magicshine dealers are selling “ new batteries” . Why isn’ t Geomangear selling these batteries and sending them as replacements?
The "new" batteries offered by other Magicshine dealers have not been tested in the U.S. and in our opinion may not be an improvement in safety or performance. We received samples of the "new" battery pack. The UL certificate is from 2003 and is for LG cells contained in a battery pack. In fact these new battery packs do not include LG cells. You can draw your own conclusions here but we chose not to use these battery packs for our customer replacements. Our replacement packs will be U.S. designed, made, tested and approved. In addition, the US CPSC will also test and approve them before we send them out. Customer safety and satisfaction are our top concerns (not the bottom-line)!

Thought maybe some of you guys that were going to buy from some of the Ebay magicshine brokers might like to know everything does not seem on the up and up. I bought 1 of those ebay batteries with the silicone wrap on it and pulled back the wrap and it looks just like the old style pack.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Rakuman said:


> ...Thought maybe some of you guys that were going to buy from some of the Ebay magicshine brokers might like to know everything does not seem on the up and up. I bought 1 of those ebay batteries with the silicone wrap on it and pulled back the wrap and it looks just like the old style pack.


Looks can be deceiving. The real issue is are the cells well matched and are the cells of better quality. I have yet to hear of any major issues with the newer MS batteries ( or their clones )

Looking forward, this whole battery quality issue should benefit the entire industry once the smoke has cleared. Even so, there will still be the occasional battery problem regardless of what light system you buy, where the cells were manufactured or where the pack was assembled. As long as you buy from someone who is willing to stand behind their product and offer a replacement or refund when expedient you should be satisfied. The way I look at it, if you get two years plus out of a discounted battery pack you've got your money's worth.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Jun 7, 2009)

highdelll said:


> I apologize sir or madam.
> I understand that common English is not spoken by everyone.
> I did not mean to confuse you.
> 
> ...


No it is marketing. Nice personal attack. :nono:


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> No it is marketing. Nice personal attack. :nono:


No It is a battery get over it:madman: :madman: :madman: :madman:


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

So without reading every post....

I have a BRBAD NEW NEVER BEEN USED light set up I bought for the wife. What's the remedy?


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

STT GUY said:


> So without reading every post....
> 
> I have a BRBAD NEW NEVER BEEN USED light set up I bought for the wife. What's the remedy?


USE IT :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

STT GUY said:


> So without reading every post....
> 
> I have a BRBAD NEW NEVER BEEN USED light set up I bought for the wife. What's the remedy?


If you bought it from GeoManGear, use it with caution untill a remedy is announced. If you bought it somewhere else, use it with caution. Other than that do your own research.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

STT GUY said:


> So without reading every post....
> 
> I have a BRBAD NEW NEVER BEEN USED light set up I bought for the wife. What's the remedy?


You have a few options, I think most people are going with #2:

Use it.
Use it but store and charge it in a fire proof area or bag.
Use it but store and charge it in your neighbors house.
Keep it but don't use it, store it in a fire proof area.
Bury it in the back yard.
Send it back.
Post it to the CPSC.
Call your insurance company and tell them you have an item that might burst into flames at any moment and ask their advice.
Call the police because the seller is using a fake UL and is trying to burn your house down.
etc

PS, heres how serious an incident you need to have for a recall:
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11716.html
_Name of Product: LED Lamps
Units: About 42,000
Manufacturer: Eco-Story, of Portland, Maine
Hazard: When used without a Class II transformer, the lamp can overheat, posing a fire hazard.
Incidents/Injuries: The company has received two reports of overheated lamps. No injuries have been reported._


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

znomit said:


> You have a few options, I think most people are going with #2:
> 
> Use it.
> Use it but store and charge it in a fire proof area or bag.
> ...


Yeah, I think Rakuman is giving HORRIBLE advice. That was a great example znomit. Only 2 overheated and they replace 42,000 of them. The burning up pics of the MS battery should be enough and I believe there were a few more. One of mine, for example, shorted. Anyway, be real careful guys.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> No it is marketing. Nice personal attack. :nono:


dood, excuse me?, where was the "personal attack"?
You need to stop smoking those Bath Salts
:yesnod:


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

znomit said:


> PS, heres how serious an incident you need to have for a recall:
> http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11716.html
> _Name of Product: LED Lamps
> Units: About 42,000
> ...


So did the CPSC issue a recall on the MS battery? I just spent 20 min. on their website looking and I couldn't find a thing. Besides, a true CPSC recall would make it illegal to sell or resell the battery in the USA. That isn't happening. If there is a true recall a link would be nice. Oh yeah, that led lamp had a UL listing. So much for UL listings.


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

gticlay said:


> Yeah, I think Rakuman is giving HORRIBLE advice. That was a great example znomit. Only 2 overheated and they replace 42,000 of them. The burning up pics of the MS battery should be enough and I believe there were a few more. One of mine, for example, shorted. Anyway, be real careful guys.


I'm sorry I was trying to be sarcastic. but it didn't come threw my bad.  
I do recommend to use the shat out of these lights but PLEASE do use caution when charging or buy a substitute battery that's what i did 6 total, I charge all my lith batteries on the stove and in a pan with lid then I go out and ride.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

gticlay said:


> Yeah, I think Rakuman is giving HORRIBLE advice. That was a great example znomit. Only 2 overheated and they replace 42,000 of them. The burning up pics of the MS battery should be enough and I believe there were a few more. One of mine, for example, shorted. Anyway, be real careful guys.


Lol I betcha stick your helmet on for every ride!

2 out of 42000 is great odds. Besides, that is another example of a voluntary recall.

I understand why a company like Geoman may prefer to be more risk averse and make their own pack. I get it. But I continue to use my MS.. I do make sure I am near when I charge it.. and I do keep the battery in a container when not in use.. but only because of all this polava.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

Rakuman said:


> I sorry I was trying to be sarcastic. but it didn't come threw my bad.
> I do recommend to use the shat out of these lights but PLEASE do use caution when charging or buy a substitute battery that's what i did 6 total, I charge all my lith batteries on the stove and in a pan with lid then I go out and ride.


I agree. Use them normally, but charge them and store them with caution would be the best advice I reckon. Me? I never gave a toss about the battery pack... the lighthead on its own was easily worth the price, and besides, mine has worked perfectly for more than a year..

I notice those 24/7 diy and subb66 ebay dudes do 6 cell (3p2s) MS compatible batteries..


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

9speed said:


> Lol I betcha stick your helmet on for every ride!
> 
> 2 out of 42000 is great odds. Besides, that is another example of a voluntary recall.
> 
> I understand why a company like Geoman may prefer to be more risk averse and make their own pack. I get it. But I continue to use my MS.. I do make sure I am near when I charge it.. and I do keep the battery in a container when not in use.. but only because of all this polava.


Risk is the *probability *of harm multiplied by the *magnitude *of harm.

1:21000 is a lot better than the odds of me falling off my bike next time I ride. But losing everything I own in a house fire (including possibly my life or my loved ones) would really, really, really suck. For a game of Russian Roulette, I need much better odds.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

NWS said:


> Risk is the *probability *of harm multiplied by the *magnitude *of harm.
> 
> 1:21000 is a lot better than the odds of me falling off my bike next time I ride. But losing everything I own in a house fire (including possibly my life or my loved ones) would really, really, really suck. For a game of Russian Roulette, I need much better odds.


You mean you want much lower odds, understandable. Then it's time to take your paranoid delusions to the next step. Sell your cars because more people die in those than you can imagine and need I say the odds of that happening are much, much higher. That means your family is still in jeopardy. Secondly, time to rip all the AC wiring from your house. Most house fires are a result of faulty wiring. Do you have gas heat, oil or propane....get rid of it, total fire hazard. Everything I mentioned will have a much higher probability of causing damage, loss or death then these stupid batteries. Do you want me to continue?


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

There's so much dumb in your reply, I don't even know where to start. We are all dumber for merely reading it.

I award you zero points, and may god have mercy on your soul.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

NWS said:


> There's so much dumb in your reply, I don't even know where to start. We are all dumber for merely reading it.
> 
> I award you zero points, and may god have mercy on your soul.


...truth is never dumb, it simply is what it is. The sad part is that some people can't see truth, even when someone else takes the time to point it out to them. I can deal with that, as well as the people who disagree with me or my views. My post was intended to enlighten, not to insult. I often use satire to make a point. It sometimes helps to prod to help expand ones view to see the bigger picture. I'm saddened that you thought it was dumb.

Now as to the other thing....no worries, God ( with a capital G ) is not done with me yet.


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## moggy82 (Jan 30, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> ...truth is never dumb, it simply is what it is. The sad part is that some people can't see truth, even when someone else takes the time to point it out to them. I can deal with that, as well as the people who disagree with me or my views. My post was intended to enlighten, not to insult. I often use satire to make a point. It sometimes helps to prod to help expand ones view to see the bigger picture. I'm saddened that you thought it was dumb.
> 
> Now as to the other thing....no worries, God ( with a capital G ) is not done with me yet.


Calm it boys, CMD, i do agree its not worth thinking of risk, doing the things we do on our bikes is always risky, its always wise to reduce risk, however with these batteries they havent just gone pop when sat there, its always to my knowledge when charging or discharging so me having 4 of theses and about 12 18650's in my bag at home should worry me!


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## FreeGravey (Nov 10, 2010)

3 months later and you guys still expect to get a battery replacement? lol


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Yes, or MTBR will be a good place to organize a class action lawsuit. I have mountain bike lawyer friend who has offered to help.


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

slocaus said:


> Yes, or MTBR will be a good place to organize a class action lawsuit. I have mountain bike lawyer friend who has offered to help.


You are kidding right ?
ITS A BATTERY


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## hmto (Jun 13, 2006)

I own a combo set and have been using it without problems. Never discharge these batteries and never let them run too low, especially to drain point. 
Unfortunately did not see this until recently, so too lazy to skim through all the pages but with these batteries, they should always be charged inside a lipo bag. Only reason I know about this is due to RC my son was involved in. When not in use I keep them in the same lipo bag stored on a fire resistant surface. apologies if these points have already been made.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

NWS said:


> Risk is the *probability *of harm multiplied by the *magnitude *of harm.
> 
> 1:21000 is a lot better than the odds of me falling off my bike next time I ride. But losing everything I own in a house fire (including possibly my life or my loved ones) would really, really, really suck. For a game of Russian Roulette, I need much better odds.


Exactly right. I'm not risking my family or house to save a few bucks on a poorly designed shoddy battery. These guys cut corners and it shows. Getting a battery pack right is not rocket science these days.

J.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

JohnJ80 said:


> Getting a battery pack right is not rocket science these days.
> 
> J.


Are China's rockets reliable?


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> ...truth is never dumb, it simply is what it is. The sad part is that some people can't see truth, even when someone else takes the time to point it out to them. I can deal with that, as well as the people who disagree with me or my views. My post was intended to enlighten, not to insult. I often use satire to make a point. It sometimes helps to prod to help expand ones view to see the bigger picture. I'm saddened that you thought it was dumb.
> 
> Now as to the other thing....no worries, God ( with a capital G ) is not done with me yet.


Logic and reason and truth is good. Maybe he meant dog? May his dog have mercy on your soul? Perhaps it's a a partcularly benevolent dog? Like a St bernard with a little cask of whiskey?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

slocaus said:


> Yes, or MTBR will be a good place to organize a class action lawsuit. I have mountain bike lawyer friend who has offered to help.


Brilliant! When I was on the CPSC website I couldn't help but notice at least 10 or more mountain bikes with ( supposed ) defects that were being recalled. Yes, yes, indeed, with a good lawyer you just might prove just how dangerous the entire mountain bike industry is. I mean, why limit the suit to a stupid battery. Can't be no real money in that ( Besides the Chinese aren't subject to our civil laws anyway ) Seeing that's the case a good lawyer ( with nothing better to do ) might get lucky and just ban the whole MTB industry. By golly, this is an excellent place to get a great start on that ( don't ya think? ). ( ...now someone please shoot me before I laugh myself to death. :smilewinkgrin: )


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## ragnar.jensen (Jul 21, 2009)

9speed said:


> Logic and reason and truth is good. Maybe he meant dog? May his dog have mercy on your soul? Perhaps it's a a partcularly benevolent dog? Like a St bernard with a little cask of whiskey?



25¢ by daveelmore, on Flickr


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

Cat-man-do said:


> take your paranoid delusions to the next step.





Cat-man-do said:


> My post was intended to enlighten, not to insult.


You sure had me fooled.

But, on the off chance that I did in fact misread your intentions... You're completely overlooking the risk/reward tradeoff. Imagine a Russian Roulette game where, if you win, you save a hundred bucks on a bike light, and if you lose, your house burns down while you sleep. Still worth it?

The odds of a house burning down on any given day are a lot better than 21000:1. If that was the case, houses would stand for an average of less than 60 years. I suspect that the odds of a house burning down, ever, are a lot better than 21k:1 but I'll let you do the math on that since you're so sure.

I drive cars with airbags, I wear seatbelts, etc, etc, and I charge my Magicshine batteries in the middle of a concrete garage floor with a smoke alarm above them, while I'm at home. No big deal.

Now look at it from Geoman's point of view. Suppose he sold 1000 lights, and suppose the odds of fire are actually 21k:1 (a number that came from an unrelated product, if you recall (pun intended)). By those odds, he's got a 1:21 chance of losing everything he owns after someone's house burns down and he gets sued. Worth it?

This recall is a very smart move on his part.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

highdelll said:


> dood, excuse me?, where was the "personal attack"?
> You need to stop smoking those Bath Salts
> :yesnod:


I thought the bath salts were for snorting.



NWS said:


> You sure had me fooled.
> 
> But, on the off chance that I did in fact misread your intentions... You're completely overlooking the risk/reward tradeoff. Imagine a Russian Roulette game where, if you win, you save a hundred bucks on a bike light, and if you lose, your house burns down while you sleep. Still worth it?
> 
> ...


Maybe I've just drunk too much of the Kool-aid, but what if the recall is because Geomangear thinks it's the right thing to do!?!?
I know it's rare these days, but there are still some trustworthy bussiness people out there. 
Read bullet 7 on the recall info page "...Customer safety and satisfaction are our top concerns (not the bottom-line)!"


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## tscheezy (Dec 19, 2003)

Holy statistical illiteracy, Batman!


----------



## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

lol

What are they teaching you feckers in school? It's a good job you lot don't have passports!


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

NWS said:


> You sure had me fooled.
> 
> But, on the off chance that I did in fact misread your intentions... You're completely overlooking the risk/reward tradeoff. Imagine a Russian Roulette game where, if you win, you save a hundred bucks on a bike light, and if you lose, your house burns down while you sleep. Still worth it?
> 
> ...


tee hee.,.. saved for posterity before you catch wind and edit it..... lol


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

NWS said:


> ...Now look at it from Geoman's point of view. Suppose he sold 1000 lights, and suppose the odds of fire are actually 21k:1 (a number that came from an unrelated product, if you recall (pun intended)). By those odds, he's got a 1:21 chance of losing everything he owns after someone's house burns down and he gets sued. Worth it?
> 
> This recall is a very smart move on his part.


BTW, according to your math, if 21,000 units were sold there is a 100% chance of failure. I'm no math guy, but I'm pretty sure it don't work that way.


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

9speed, where did I go wrong?


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

ajmelin said:


> Maybe I've just drunk too much of the Kool-aid, but what if the recall is because Geomangear thinks it's the right thing to do!?!?


Who says it's not?


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

ajmelin said:


> BTW, according to your math, if 21,000 units were sold there is a 100% chance of failure. I'm no math guy, but I'm pretty sure it don't work that way.


The *premise * there was a 1:21000 chance of failure (taken from another product's probability of catching fire, based on a recall notice for that product). So yeah, I figure if you sell 21,000 there would be a near certainty of failure happening. Am I wrong?

That premise is debatable, and the probability of a failure leading to a burned-down house is not 1:1.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

I don't know where this 21000 rubbish came from  :skep: :nono:

Theres only two possibilities here. 
Your battery will burn your house down
Your battery wont burn your house down
So with only two possible outcomes each gets a 50% probability. :thumbsup: 
For those who enjoy complex mathematical problems thats 100% divided by 2

THATS RIGHT YOUR HOUSE HAS A 50% CHANCE OF BURNING DOWN TONIGHT. 

Just ask Walter...
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-april-30-2009/large-hadron-collider


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

znomit said:


> I don't know where this 21000 rubbish came from


Divide. 



znomit said:


> PS, heres how serious an incident you need to have for a recall:
> [...]
> Units: About *42,000*
> [...]
> Incidents/Injuries: The company has received *two* reports of overheated lamps.


So, for the sake of discussion, let's...



NWS said:


> *Suppose* he sold 1000 lights, and suppose the odds of fire are actually 21k:1 (a number that came from an unrelated product, if you recall (pun intended)).


Any clearer now?

Next you're going to ask me why I think he sold exactly one thousand lights, aren't you? :madman:


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

NWS said:


> Any clearer now?


Did you watch the link? 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-april-30-2009/large-hadron-collider


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

NWS said:


> ....But, on the off chance that I did in fact misread your intentions... You're completely overlooking the risk/reward tradeoff. Imagine a Russian Roulette game where, if you win, you save a hundred bucks on a bike light, and if you lose, your house burns down while you sleep. Still worth it?
> 
> The odds of a house burning down on any given day are a lot better than 21000:1. If that was the case, houses would stand for an average of less than 60 years. I suspect that the odds of a house burning down, ever, are a lot better than 21k:1 but I'll let you do the math on that since you're so sure.
> 
> I drive cars with airbags, I wear seatbelts, etc, etc, and I charge my Magicshine batteries in the middle of a concrete garage floor with a smoke alarm above them, while I'm at home. No big deal.


Nope, I accept the risk/reward because I know the odds of one of these batteries bursting into flames ( under my care ) would be greater than the odds of me winning the Mega Million lottery. However that is my perception. I can't speak directly for others but there are millions of products sold that are using Li-ion technology ( once again I am pointing to the big picture ). The technology is reasonably safe and has been improved upon in the last 10 years. That doesn't mean there aren't bad battery packs out there. Reasonable safety precautions are called for. There is no CPSC recall of the MS battery that I see on their website. Like I have said before, if there were more reported cases of the MS battery going up in smoke I think the government would issue a recall.

Once again risk assessment is a personal call. More people have died ( or almost died ) in cars than you will care to know. THAT IS A FACT. Yet most of us, including me are willing to accept the odds because we need to live in the modern world. Your air bags and seatbelts can fail ( or simply not be enough to save you from that 18 wheeler jack knifing in front of you ). Brakes fail, steering fails, you name it , it can fail. We live in a dangerous modern world. Death and danger lurks everywhere regardless of our many safety precautions. I don't know about you but I sleep fine at night. If my place goes up in smoke it will be because I forgot to turn my gas range off or I forgot to unplug the heat pad or one of my neighbors will do something in their apartment ( causing a fire ) that will set my place on fire as well. It won't be because of one of my batteries going up in flame. I'm sure there are statistics somewhere that could prove it but I don't need no stinking statistics because to me it's just common sense. That is my assessment of the risks. I already know it doesn't jive with yours. If I can drive for a living and put my life at risk every day I can certainly live with a couple batteries charging in a bake pan inside my home..

Guys, I think I need to get off this thread for a while cause it has gotten a little strange ( if you catch my drift )...:ihih:


----------



## klydesdale (Feb 6, 2005)

ajmelin said:


> If you bought it from GeoManGear, use it with caution untill a remedy is announced. If you bought it somewhere else, use it with caution. Other than that do your own research.


If it's truly "brand new", it's still under the 90 day warranty. IIRC, Geoman is offering full refunds for systems still under warranty.


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## klydesdale (Feb 6, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> The technology is reasonably safe and has been improved upon in the last 10 years. That doesn't mean there aren't bad battery packs out there. Reasonable safety precautions are called for. There is no CPSC recall of the MS battery that I see on their website. Like I have said before, if there were more reported cases of the MS battery going up in smoke I think the government would issue a recall.


Saying there's no CSPC recall is very disingenuous. Did you happen to notice the recalls for the Dinotte and Lights and Motion lights on the CPSC site? Like with most of the MTB-related ones there, they are voluntary ones intitiated by the companies who sold the products, just like Geoman has said they have done. If you look closely at the date listed in the recall, you'll see that there's two years or more between when the product was sold and when CPSC officially announced the recall. With the Geoman battery situation we're still within that timing. If the "government" issues a recall without the company volunteering to do it can take a hell of a lot longer.

You'll also notice that in almost all the MTB-related recalls, there's a remedy in place in the form of a refund or replacement. A class action lawsuit was only mentioned here in the event of a remedy (i.e. a replacement) NOT being offered. Saying that someone who would intitiate a lawsuit like this to get the remedy to which they're entitled is trying to "ban" the entire MTBing industry for being too dangerous is a such a amazing leap of logic that you should be in a circus or something.


----------



## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

Ah the internet! The perfect place to make up statistics, and then argue about them not being entirely accurate. Keep going though, this is entertaining.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

klydesdale said:


> Saying there's no CSPC recall is very disingenuous. Did you happen to notice the recalls for the Dinotte and Lights and Motion lights on the CPSC site? .


Since when is stating a fact "disingenuous"? I thought when someone lies or distorts the truth, that is being disingenuous. Yes, I saw the other recalls. Dinotte and L&M recalled their own product and sent new stuff out without delay. MagicShine or Geoman hasn't. Who knows if they will? Our government could ban the product but will they? I have no crystal ball, who knows? Geoman is covering his own a** for his own reasons. I won't fault him for that but the delay with the promised replacement battery is starting to get old. I think he should of found a replacement battery FIRST and then started the recall but that's just my opinion. It's just possible that someone has already threatened him with a law suit. Maybe that is why he has jumped the gun, so to speak.



klydesdale said:


> ....You'll also notice that in almost all the MTB-related recalls, there's a remedy in place in the form of a refund or replacement. A class action lawsuit was only mentioned here in the event of a remedy (i.e. a replacement) NOT being offered. Saying that someone who would intitiate a lawsuit like this to get the remedy to which they're entitled is trying to "ban" the entire MTBing industry for being too dangerous is a such a amazing leap of logic that you should be in a circus or something.


It seems you don't understand my facetious humor. My comment to slocaus's post was total tongue in cheek, not to mention you are trying to explain someone else's post and what their intent was when they made the comment about the "Class action law suit". My reaction to his post was to assume the worse. Someone wants to sue the small business man and put him out of business. That was my take on it. If I'm wrong, so what. My guess is as good as yours. Regardless, I still don't like civil lawyers. 

Anyway, there is not a company out there ( other than complete hucktsers ) that won't offer replacements for a product when under the warranty period. If your Giant frame cracks most dealers will replace it. However if you buy a product and somehow hurt yourself because you didn't know how to handle it properly, that is not the fault of the manufacture. ( go to BatterySpace and look at their disclaimers ).

Once lawyers get involved they usually go for the jugular. They will distort truth if they have to so they can win. That is their job, their goal, to get the big bucks. If someone wants to sue Geoman personally, that is their business but I think that very sad. A class action lawsuit takes that to another level. Talk about your circus, THAT is a CIRCUS!. I wasn't the one that first brought up the issue of lawsuits. I never under estimate the ability of some people to be greedy or to lie to achieve their own personal goals once the lawyers get involved. It happens every day. If I'm wrong about it this time, so what. Excuse me for being pessimistic.

Yes, Twoheads...the saga continues....:smilewinkgrin:


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

Cat-man-do said:


> Nope, I accept the risk/reward because I know the odds of one of these batteries bursting into flames ( under my care ) would be greater than the odds of me winning the Mega Million lottery. However that is my perception.


My perception is that more magicshine owners have experienced fire than have won the mega million lottery. Perhaps infinitely more, division-by-zero being what it is.

The maturity of lithium cells as a technology has little or no bearing on the behavior of packs of unmatched cells when used with cheap chargers. But hey, if naivete helps you sleep at night, you go right on telling yourself whatever barely-relevant facts make you feel better.


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

tscheezy said:


> Holy statistical illiteracy, Batman!


Who? Where? Please elaborate.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

It's nice to check in here and see the children are still poking each other with sticks.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Hey guys, there is updated info on our Recall Page, we will be updating more regularly as we make progress. Thanks again for your patience.

http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=17



NWS said:


> Divide.
> 
> So, for the sake of discussion, let's...
> 
> ...


----------



## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

Great read Geoman way to put it all out there.
Thanks for the update, look forward to the new batteries:thumbsup:


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

Wow, so we will be getting a fantastic value with our original MS900 purchase(s). 4400mah! Thanks Geoman.


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

NWS said:


> Divide.
> 
> So, for the sake of discussion, let's...
> 
> ...


Well, now we know it's 15,000 lightsets and 20,000 battery packs. Schizer.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Our design features premium quality cells, sophisticated intelligent PCB and a lightweight plastic casing. We know it has taken longer than expected but we are sure a quality replacement will be worth the wait.



gticlay said:


> Wow, so we will be getting a fantastic value with our original MS900 purchase(s). 4400mah! Thanks Geoman.


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## sdcadbiker (Jun 20, 2008)

Much appreciated update, Geo! :thumbsup: 
15,000 lights sold... that's going some! It hurts to have to replace 20,000 batteries but there's obviously a huge market out there for competitively priced performance lights and you're building a ton of goodwill with your honesty.
BTW, are these new batteries exclusive to Geoman? I sure hope so after all the trouble you have gone to.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Thanks so much we really appreciate the feedback, no doubt that it's a huge project. They will be exclusive GeoManGear battery packs and will be manufactured in California to US standards. We are expecting a high quality, reliable and durable battery pack from our manufacturer. Going this route has taken longer than we wanted but we need to be certain that we send our customers a safe replacement for the Magicshine batteries.



sdcadbiker said:


> Much appreciated update, Geo! :thumbsup:
> 15,000 lights sold... that's going some! It hurts to have to replace 20,000 batteries but there's obviously a huge market out there for competitively priced performance lights and you're building a ton of goodwill with your honesty.
> BTW, are these new batteries exclusive to Geoman? I sure hope so after all the trouble you have gone to.


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## TahoeRydin (Apr 23, 2004)

Glad to see the update Geoman. I was trusting you guys enough to hold onto, rather than return, the set I got in late October. Looking forward to the new battery packs.


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## tscheezy (Dec 19, 2003)

I assume these batteries will also eventually end up for sale "aftermarket" (or more specifically, not just as recall replacements). I will be curious to see the price on them.


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

Bravo, Geoman.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*Geoman*, Glad to hear things are moving along. Hope you weren't bothered too much by my occasional prods ( Hey it's what I do to make sure we MTB'ers are not ignored.  ) Still, from what your website said, the ETA for the new battery is sometime in April 2011. That's still a wait but hopefully ( on a positive note ) they will be out before the nice weather rolls around.

Interesting that your battery will offer a more advanced PCB. To me I think this will make it a "stand out product", not to mention a great selling point. Not only do you get the built-in protection put into all Li-ion cells but you get a PCB with a temp. control cut-off ( as well as the standard PBC cut-offs I presume ). If I understand correctly that gives your batteries another layer of protection not offered by most. It would be nice to hear a little more about how that protects the battery. Would be nice if you could offer some documentation on this new PCB/battery set-up.

Anyway, I look forward to the release. I also look forward to the dissections and the reviews. If all goes well you could find yourself selling more batteries than anything else. Humm...just realized, no mention was made about what these are going to cost. Any comment on what these will sell for and how they will be marketed if sold with the MS?

Speaking of new stuff, is there going to be an upgraded version of the MagicShine lighthead using an XM-L...:ihih: ( Oh that would be nice.... )


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Hi Cat, no worries, we understand that the forums are a place to voice opinions. With regard to the GeoManGear Li Ion pack, it will have a new layer of protection which will prevent charging in extreme temps plus it will have termination just like a smart charger so it will reach full charge and then prevent trickle charging. Our Li Ion expert dealt directly with the manufacturer to make sure the PCB was designed to incorporate the best safety features, including the standard and advanced protection previously mentioned.

Unfortunately April will be the first major shipment of these new batteries, we have tried to expedite the rollout however it seems corners would have to be cut to produce UN/DOT/CPSC tested packs in less time, which is definitely not our plan. We do have a huge number of packs arriving in April and we are anxious to get these sent out to all of you. We plan to retail these packs as individual items and we have had a number of different lightheads tested to make sure they will be compatible, the batteries will still be priced very reasonably. This process has kept our small team extremely busy in the last few months, as we mentioned in previous posts; the wheels were always turning behind the scenes and we are really excited to get the business rolling again.

We have been discussing Cree XM-L lightheads however I think it's a little too soon to expect them this early in the year. Definitely exciting times, it will be nice to see someone bring a 2000 lumen triple XM-L to the market.

Thanks again to all our friends and supporters on MTBR. :thumbsup:



Cat-man-do said:


> *Geoman*, Glad to hear things are moving along. Hope you weren't bothered too much by my occasional prods ( Hey it's what I do to make sure we MTB'ers are not ignored.  ) Still, from what your website said, the ETA for the new battery is sometime in April 2011. That's still a wait but hopefully ( on a positive note ) they will be out before the nice weather rolls around.
> 
> Interesting that your battery will offer a more advanced PCB. To me I think this will make it a "stand out product", not to mention a great selling point. Not only do you get the built-in protection put into all Li-ion cells but you get a PCB with a temp. control cut-off ( as well as the standard PBC cut-offs I presume ). If I understand correctly that gives your batteries another layer of protection not offered by most. It would be nice to hear a little more about how that protects the battery. Would be nice if you could offer some documentation on this new PCB/battery set-up.
> 
> ...


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## GTR2ebike (May 3, 2010)

GEOMAN said:


> Hi Cat, no worries, we understand that the forums are a place to voice opinions. With regard to the GeoManGear Li Ion pack, it will have a new layer of protection which will prevent charging in extreme temps plus it will have termination just like a smart charger so it will reach full charge and then prevent trickle charging. Our Li Ion expert dealt directly with the manufacturer to make sure the PCB was designed to incorporate the best safety features, including the standard and advanced protection previously mentioned.
> 
> Unfortunately April will be the first major shipment of these new batteries, we have tried to expedite the rollout however it seems corners would have to be cut to produce UN/DOT/CPSC tested packs in less time, which is definitely not our plan. We do have a huge number of packs arriving in April and we are anxious to get these sent out to all of you. We plan to retail these packs as individual items and we have had a number of different lightheads tested to make sure they will be compatible, the batteries will still be priced very reasonably. This process has kept our small team extremely busy in the last few months, as we mentioned in previous posts; the wheels were always turning behind the scenes and we are really excited to get the business rolling again.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: So who gets the first packs? The ones who ordered first or the one with the most lights/batteries?

I assume this is a picture of the new pack...and what about the ones of use who paid extra for the battery with the metal case?


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Hi GTR, no this pictured pack is actually a German made Magicshine compatible pack from Open-Light Systems that we have been testing, they are very lightweight, waterproof and reliable (also very expensive).

You raised a very good point with regard to the casing. This is one of the major factors contributing to the design of our own GeoManGear battery pack, it will have a hard plastic casing that allows a velcrow strap to be used to strap it under the stem, on the post or downtube. We wanted to make sure we replaced your existing packs with a hard cased pack, there was nothing available already in production that had the features we needed (premium quality cells, compatible intelligent PCB, hard casing and of course 20,000 of them). That's why we have had to take the time to produce them ourselves.

We are waiting for the CPSC to give us the thumbsup on rolling out the recall notice which will provide the specifics on replacement order. Since this is not approved we can't disclose how it will work but we anticipate that it will be very soon. Meanwhile the battery production continues in the background



GTR2ebike said:


> :thumbsup: So who gets the first packs? The ones who ordered first or the one with the most lights/batteries?
> 
> I assume this is a picture of the new pack...and what about the ones of use who paid extra for the battery with the metal case?


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

I would assume that anyone posting in this thread would receive their packs from the first batch  .


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

The faster someone reponds to the recall notice the faster they will receive their replacement. We expect an initial rush, especially from those of you that are actively involved in these threads and have a huge number of packs being delivered in April.



gticlay said:


> I would assume that anyone posting in this thread would receive their packs from the first batch  .


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

gticlay said:


> I would assume that anyone posting in this thread would receive their packs from the first batch  .


I'm sure Geoman has been keeping a naughty/nice list, and those of us who have kept the faith will be well rewarded.:cornut:


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

We know it's been frustrating for all of you, us too. We wanted to have this done much sooner but finding the right manufacturer then designing and manufacturing a US approved pack simply takes this amount of time.



ajmelin said:


> I'm sure Geoman has been keeping a naughty/nice list, and those of us who have kept the faith will be well rewarded.:cornut:


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## jkirkpatri (Sep 16, 2008)

I've got six batteries at home (why be a firefly when you can be a train?) so I hope that I get in for the first batch of recalls!


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## ray.vermette (Jul 16, 2008)

*Here Are Some Stats For You...*

2 confirmed cases of defect out of approximately 20,000 batteries sold by Geomangear, according to their web page. Based on that, odds are about 1 in 10,000 that you will experience a (serious) defect.

For comparison, according to the National Safety Council: 

Odds of dying in a car crash in this year alone: *1 IN 6,500.*
Odds of dying in a car crash in your lifetime: *1 IN 83.*

Perhaps we should all stop driving and start biking? :thumbsup:


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## savagemann (Jan 14, 2008)

4 batteries here.
What would be great is if everybody that gets a recall battery, buys a backup from GeoMan as well.
I'm sure the $$ rolling in will help offset everything a little.
I bet this has got to be pretty expensive......but I knew GoeMan would come through.
I'm sure the initial run of packs will be for recall users, and once satisfied there will be some available for sale.
I bet the setup and specing of the PCB cost a good chunk of change.
But look on the bright side, you'll have production setup for all the backup packs that I'm sure you'll sell.
Great work Geoman!


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

ray.vermette said:


> 2 confirmed cases of defect out of approximately 20,000 batteries sold by Geomangear, according to their web page. Based on that, odds are about 1 in 10,000 that you will experience a (serious) defect.
> 
> For comparison, according to the National Safety Council:
> 
> ...


I read recently that the main cause of death in Irish travellers in car crash. In fact, the main cause of death in young men aged under 30 generally is car crash closely followed by suicide.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

So I have a BRAND NEW IN THE BOX light... Should I just ask for a refund or have my CC company reverse the charge and be done with this...?

My wife wants to ride with me at night and in order to do so i need a light she canb use. That means I have to spend money because I cannot use the defective product we bought. I'd rather have my money back. Is that reasonable?


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

STT GUY said:


> So I have a BRAND NEW IN THE BOX light... Should I just ask for a refund or have my CC company reverse the charge and be done with this...?
> 
> My wife wants to ride with me at night and in order to do so i need a light she canb use. That means I have to spend money because I cannot use the defective product we bought. I'd rather have my money back. Is that reasonable?


Uhhh, ask if you can return it for your money back. 
Also, put your pants on BEFORE your socks and shoes.


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

ajmelin said:


> Uhhh, ask if you can return it for your money back.
> Also, put your pants on BEFORE your socks and shoes.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## Chromagftw (Feb 12, 2009)

GEOMAN said:


> We have been discussing Cree XM-L lightheads however I think it's a little too soon to expect them this early in the year. Definitely exciting times, it will be nice to see someone bring a 2000 lumen triple XM-L to the market.
> 
> Thanks again to all our friends and supporters on MTBR. :thumbsup:


Appreciate the update Geoman. Despite a few naysayers, there are those who knew you would pull through! :thumbsup:

Apparently, quad XML's are already in the works: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=305459&page=1

Image below borrowed from CPF:


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Please contact us directly, use the [email protected] address



STT GUY said:


> So I have a BRAND NEW IN THE BOX light... Should I just ask for a refund or have my CC company reverse the charge and be done with this...?
> 
> My wife wants to ride with me at night and in order to do so i need a light she canb use. That means I have to spend money because I cannot use the defective product we bought. I'd rather have my money back. Is that reasonable?


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ray.vermette said:


> 2 confirmed cases of defect out of approximately 20,000 batteries sold by Geomangear, according to their web page. Based on that, odds are about 1 in 10,000 that you will experience a (serious) defect.
> 
> For comparison, according to the National Safety Council:
> 
> ...


I think Geoman sold 15000 MS and 20,000 extra batteries, that should up the count but then again that's just one vendor. I'm sure there are many more MS owners that have bought their light from other sources and we have no figures on those. I had no idea though that GM had sold that many light sets...Whew! Not to mention also that those two cases mentioned were probably the extreme cases where something really bad happened. There were probably many more cases of mismatch cells that just didn't work as well as they should have ( but posed no other threat ). We have no real number for those.

Now about those stat's on the car crashes. I won't argue the first number but the second number ( 1 in 83 ?)....hummmm....somehow that sounds a little extreme. Common sense tells me it would have to vary by location as well. I mean if you live in N.J. I would think you would have more risk than someone living in Stickville, Montana. Anyway, I should have stuck with the car/crash/die comparison. It makes more sense. Using the MegaMillion lottery comparison...well...okay, that was a bit out toward left field..:lol: Guess I got a little carried away, my bad.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

ajmelin said:


> Uhhh, ask if you can return it for your money back.
> Also, put your pants on BEFORE your socks and shoes.


I did... I received a response about the battery recall.

I see that the GEOMAN guy can come here and post today (multiple times..in fact) but cannot reply to my email. That's not what I would call "good" customer service.

As a former small business owner I wish them well and don't want to add to thier burden... as a consumer I'd like to not have to spend additional monies to get a light that is safe to use for my wife.

Make sense?


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

GEOMAN said:


> Please contact us directly, use the address


I followed the instructions on your website...

I'l use the above address now.

Thanks


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

savagemann said:


> 4 batteries here.
> What would be great is if everybody that gets a recall battery, buys a backup from GeoMan as well.
> I'm sure the $$ rolling in will help offset everything a little.
> I bet this has got to be pretty expensive......but I knew GoeMan would come through.
> ...


I'd be happy to pay a discounted rate for a quality replacement battery pack. It's great if it's replaced free of charge, but I'd rather still have a good vendor when this is all over with. I'd prefer that over having a free battery and Geoman out of business.


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## outside! (Mar 15, 2006)

GeoMan,

Thanks for the update. I have been searching for a battery pack manufacturer for a non-bike, non-light related product (in other words we are not competing with you in any way) and will be contacting Totex soon. You rock!


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

STT GUY said:


> I did... I received a response about the battery recall.
> 
> I see that the GEOMAN guy can come here and post today (multiple times..in fact) but cannot reply to my email. That's not what I would call "good" customer service.
> 
> ...


No, it doesn't make sense:
1-If you already asked for a refund, then why are you asking if you should ask for a refund?
2-Who said you'll have to spend any additional monies to get a light that is safe to use for your wife?


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

sdcadbiker said:


> Much appreciated update, Geo! :thumbsup:
> 15,000 lights sold... that's going some! It hurts to have to replace 20,000 batteries but there's obviously a huge market out there for competitively priced performance lights and you're building a ton of goodwill with your honesty.
> BTW, are these new batteries exclusive to Geoman? I sure hope so after all the trouble you have gone to.


I don't envy GEOMAN. In this time they have basically been out of business and spending money, there are several competitors that have sprung up. Its gonna be a tough road back, and they are gonna take it in the shorts replacing batteries.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

We sorted it all of this out via direct email communication shortly after the initial post. :thumbsup:



ajmelin said:


> No, it doesn't make sense:
> 1-If you already asked for a refund, then why are you asking if you should ask for a refund?
> 2-Who said you'll have to spend any additional monies to get a light that is safe to use for your wife?


----------



## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

I'm glad I found this thread, and I'm surprised that even with just two incidents there wasn't a mass email stating to discontinue use. I'm still using mine, though charging and storing it with more attention.
Geoman customer service is awesome on all fronts from both personal and public experiences. Geoman will come through, and I'll continue to support them.


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## sammer (Jun 10, 2006)

I would definitely be down to buy a spare battery if/when I get a free replacement for the possibly defective one.
Geomans service has been first rate and I'd like to see that continue.

Waiting patiently...

sam


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## picassomoon (Jun 16, 2009)

I bought a MS from an ebay vendor just after Geoman pulled the product because I really wanted one for winter. 

I'll probably buy one of Geoman's new packs, and maybe a second head for my bars with a new pack too once they are available.


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## DiscoDust (Sep 22, 2010)

As the ultimate skeptic I have got to say I'm floored with Geoman's backing of this product. If new battery packs are made available free of charge my jaw will hit the floor! Guess I'm just used to getting a big "FU" from most companies when the s**t hits the fan.

I have the utmost respect for Geoman and agree with "Two Heads", I would even be willing to pay a small fee if these new batteries are as good as they say they will be. Guess I'm just easily sated, lol.

I'm running three MS's and agree that they are a great bang for the buck, especially with a quality new battery pack! I would think Geo will come out ahead in the end carrying one of the most cost effective (and seemingly progressive) light systems if they can just weather this storm... "two thumbs" to Geoman.


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## tscheezy (Dec 19, 2003)

DiscoDust said:


> As the ultimate skeptic...


Are you part of the class action lawsuit? If not, you may be among the penultimate skeptics.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Jun 7, 2009)

Any thoughts on offering a battery with a few more cells? Maybe something to use with the brighter lights?


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Any thoughts on offering a battery with a few more cells? Maybe something to use with the brighter lights?


Two packs w/ 'Y' cable


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

Geo Man got back to me and anwered my questions. Can't ask for more than that.

In the mean time I'm going to try to not burn down the garage.


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## thunderstruck (Jun 15, 2009)

That's the difference between being a profit focused corporation and a customer focused small business owner. Yes, I might have possibly saved a few bucks by buying from DX when the light came out but I'd rather do business with someone that stands behind his product. Sometimes the lowest price really isn't cheaper in the long run.


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## cowboygrrl (Jan 20, 2011)

I haven't heard any announcements but I just purchased a new 818 from Nova bikes in IL that states its a "new and improved light," with new battery supplier, UL and CE approved with a 6 month warranty serviced in IL.


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## thunderstruck (Jun 15, 2009)

You have a URL?


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

cowboygrrl said:


> I haven't heard any announcements but I just purchased a new 818 from Nova bikes in IL that states its a "new and improved light," with new battery supplier, UL and CE approved with a 6 month warranty serviced in IL.


Take a look at the thread. They are fake or out of date certifications. Not the cells they were certified with, etc.


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## cowboygrrl (Jan 20, 2011)

gticlay said:


> Take a look at the thread. They are fake or out of date certifications. Not the cells they were certified with, etc.


I did read this thread.....but saw NO mention of "fakes." I guess I'll have to take my chances (already purchased) this is a reputable dealer, warranty, and that it is in fact a new battery. Hopefully I won't be the ONE in 10,000 (or whatever the statistic was). I may have to buy one of Geoman's replacements.


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## J_Hopper (Mar 5, 2005)

I think what gticlay means is that the UL certification was expired and for LG cells. By fake, I think meant that the packs didn't contain LG cells. Perhaps...


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## cowboygrrl (Jan 20, 2011)

J_Hopper said:


> I think what gticlay means is that the UL certification was expired and for LG cells. By fake, I think meant that the packs didn't contain LG cells. Perhaps...


LG?


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## ragnar.jensen (Jul 21, 2009)

cowboygrrl said:


> LG?


Lucky Goldstar, the Korean electronics giant, that amongst many other things also manufactures batteries.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

GM- WOW! Thanks for the update and work behind the scene to get this done. I've got like 35 rides in this past summer w/ my MS and have seen some stuff... oowiee, I've seen some stuff. Great fun. I will and have recommended you to friends...
:thumbsup:


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

Though on a serious note, ... you Americans should be building and selling your own lights.. 

Or you like us will be a 3rd world country come 2030...


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## tscheezy (Dec 19, 2003)

The US is still the largest manufacturing nation on earth. The problem is that a lot of production is automated (aka robots) so the only way to 'make stuff' using people would be to *become* a 3rd world country again.


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## J_Hopper (Mar 5, 2005)

cowboygrrl, my [limited] understanding of batteries is that LG, Sanyo, Panasonic, and Sony make the best quality 18650 cells.

You can read more about the expired UL certification and false LG battery claim at Geoman's recall page, #4.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

9speed said:


> Though on a serious note, ... you Americans should be building and selling your own lights..
> 
> Or you like us will be a 3rd world country come 2030...


You can't seriously think the fate of the US economy lies with the bike light industry. My understanding is that "Energy" and natural resources are the life's blood of the US economy. If we can find good, reliable and cheap renewable energy resources we should be good. It might take another depression ( or near depression ) for that to happen but than again who really knows the future.. Once again, a little off subject.


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## cowboygrrl (Jan 20, 2011)

ragnar.jensen said:


> Lucky Goldstar, the Korean electronics giant, that amongst many other things also manufactures batteries.


I have emailed the vendor with my concerns but have yet to hear from them. I sent that off yesterday; over the weekend, so hopefully they will respond Mon.

The light is supposed to arrive tomorrow. How would one check to see if the "appropriate" battery cell is included? And thanks, all, for your help.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> You can't seriously think the fate of the US economy lies with the bike light industry. My understanding is that "Energy" and natural resources are the life's blood of the US economy. If we can find good, reliable and cheap renewable energy resources we should be good. It might take another depression ( or near depression ) for that to happen but than again who really knows the future.. Once again, a little off subject.


Not off subject really... for here I am laughing at just how cheap some of you yanks are...

I never said the fate of the US, or European manufacture lay in the hands of the bike light industry for clearly that would be a dumb thing to suggest. Even dumber to suggest that was my argument.

My argument is that you have good value home grown talent by the likes of Baja, a luxury we don't really have in the UK... and yet you yanks, still comparatively rich, continue to go for the cheapest far-eastern option... Now I love my little magicshine, but if I could afford a Hope or USE I'd buy one. Yet there you are in the states with a very affordable mostly American Baja. And here you are bleating for page after page about a battery for a light that is worth the price for the lighthead alone...

Depressions are always deliberate. You'd have to bother to understand fractional reserve banking to get that one.


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

9speed said:


> Not off subject really... for here I am laughing at just how cheap some of you yanks are...
> 
> I never said the fate of the US, or European manufacture lay in the hands of the bike light industry for clearly that would be a dumb thing to suggest. Even dumber to suggest that was my argument however.
> 
> ...


You need to talk to Troutie.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Jun 7, 2009)

9speed likes a good fight.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> 9speed likes a good fight.


Ya think? 

9speed said:


> for here I am laughing at just how cheap some of you yanks are...


I never laugh at anyone trying to save some bucks. I don't laugh at any one spending $700 for a bike light. Not everyone living in the U.S. believes in the " got to be made in America idea". Not everyone living in America makes the big bucks. Look at what cars we drive ( and who makes them ) and you would see that.

Personally I'm considering buying the Firefly made by Light and go. Now if Dinotte had put an XP-G in one of their 200L light engines ( making it a 300L+ ) I would of been on that like flies on ****. The U.S. bike light industry has been real slow when it comes to using the newer LED technology. Finally that is beginning to change. New U.S made systems using P-7's and XP-Gs are forthcoming. Price though will continue to be a deciding factor in any purchase. ( Unless you make the big bucks or you have a wife that doesn't care.. )

I don't think you can fault Americans for being cheap because they buy cheap Chinese made merchandise if no one else is offering an alternative that is competitive in price. That is starting to change. It just took a wake-up call from the Chinese to let all others know that bikes lights can be made cheap and still work.

Now that I think about it, there are probably a lot of people in the UK that own MS's as well. I would never call them "cheap" for doing so but then again I don't criticize how other people spend their own money when it comes to stuff like this.


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## Hill-Pumper (Apr 30, 2010)

9speed said:


> Not off subject really... for here I am laughing at just how cheap some of you yanks are...
> 
> My argument is that you have good value home grown talent by the likes of Baja, a luxury we don't really have in the UK... and yet you yanks, still comparatively rich, continue to go for the cheapest far-eastern option... Now I love my little magicshine, but if I could afford a Hope or USE I'd buy one. Yet there you are in the states with a very affordable mostly American Baja. And here you are bleating for page after page about a battery for a light that is worth the price for the lighthead alone...
> 
> Depressions are always deliberate. You'd have to bother to understand fractional reserve banking to get that one.


I it find funny that you use Baja Designs as an example. Just to set the record straight, their lights are made in China. I know because I have one and that is what the little sticker says on the bottom. Also, the UK has some very good lights available, you need to look no father then Exposure Lights. As an added bonus, they are actually made in the UK,


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## cowboygrrl (Jan 20, 2011)

Here's a question for *Geoman*. I fell for the _new_ MS light being sold on ebay (Nova Bike LIghts) last week*. Your recall doesn't show proof these "new"battery packs are unsafe. You do say they're not LG cells.

There must be some kind of serial #/identification on the battery pack to determine if it is a LG battery. And if it's not an LG battery, is the issue it also may not be safe with the MG light?. And why wouldn't it be safe? I read about certification dates, but how serious of an issure is that? Sorry I'm no electrician, so I need some help here.

Also can consumers report these vendors who are selling batteries to the US Safety Commission; assuming the battery packs they are distributing are somehow fraudulent/unsafe? How about reporting them to EBay?

*read this whole thread but somehow missed the recall page and "fake" sales


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

cowboygrrl said:


> Here's a question for *Geoman*. I fell for the _new_ MS light being sold on ebay (Nova Bike LIghts) last week*. Your recall doesn't show proof these "new"battery packs are unsafe. You do say they're not LG cells.
> 
> There must be some kind of serial #/identification on the battery pack to determine if it is a LG battery. And if it's not an LG battery, is the issue it also may not be safe with the MG light?. And why wouldn't it be safe? I read about certification dates, but how serious of an issure is that? Sorry I'm no electrician, so I need some help here.
> 
> ...


You do what you want to. Geoman is taking care of his customers. He feels they need a new battery pack to use the light safely. That's it. You choose what you want to do.

I guarantee it's not an LG battery. If it is, bring it to me and I'll eat it (kidding!). The ones that Geoman has tested for his customers didn't work properly - if they did, I really don't think he would have gone through all the trouble! Sometimes they die, sometimes they work OK, sometimes they catch on fire. Roll the dice if you want to.


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## cowboygrrl (Jan 20, 2011)

gticlay said:


> You do what you want to. Geoman is taking care of his customers. He feels they need a new battery pack to use the light safely. That's it. You choose what you want to do.
> 
> I guarantee it's not an LG battery. If it is, bring it to me and I'll eat it (kidding!). The ones that Geoman has tested for his customers didn't work properly - if they did, I really don't think he would have gone through all the trouble! Sometimes they die, sometimes they work OK, sometimes they catch on fire. Roll the dice if you want to.


I believe you've missed my point. I'm not questioning Geoman; I find his actions regarding this situation commendable. I _wish_ I had bought this light from him. I'm asking Geoman this question, "When I receive my light, how can I tell if it is, or is not an LG cell? If it's not, how would I know it's unsafe, how would I determine if the certification is outdated, etc. If it's not a LG cell, why would it be unsafe, and if it is a fraudulent/unsafe battery, is there a way I can report it to the US Safety Commision?

I am asking about the technical/scientific/electrical facts here. I am not on this forum to have a rhetorical discussion with you about the right thing to do.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

cowboygrrl said:


> Here's a question for *Geoman*. I fell for the _new_ MS light being sold on ebay (Nova Bike LIghts) last week*. Your recall doesn't show proof these "new"battery packs are unsafe. You do say they're not LG cells.
> 
> There must be some kind of serial #/identification on the battery pack to determine if it is a LG battery. And if it's not an LG battery, is the issue it also may not be safe with the MG light?. And why wouldn't it be safe? I read about certification dates, but how serious of an issure is that? Sorry I'm no electrician, so I need some help here.
> 
> ...


Cowboygrrl, My advice is not to stress out on the problems of others. Your vendor claims the batteries he is selling are new. If you have a problem with the battery or light set I suggest contacting the EBay vendor. If the light works, use it and enjoy. Use what safety precautions you feel necessary when charging. Never store the battery in a hot area. It isn't important whither or not the cells on the new battery are LG cells. What is important is that the battery you have is working properly. If you are getting the expected run times that is a good sign. There is really no way to know for sure how good your battery pack is unless you have some technical background and are willing to tear the pack apart to do the tests.



Hill-Pumper said:


> I it find funny that you use Baja Designs as an example. Just to set the record straight, their lights are made in China. I know because I have one and that is what the little sticker says on the bottom.


Dang, is that true? Can anyone else confirm that? I thought for sure they were made in the U.S.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

I thought they were US made also...

I still stand by what I said though, without manufacture you and we are nothing. There is no real wealth without manufacture. Just cos we can buy all this cheap Chinese ****, doesn't mean we should.......


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

9speed said:


> I thought they were US made also...
> 
> I still stand by what I said though, without manufacture you and we are nothing. *There is no real wealth without manufacture.* Just cos we can buy all this cheap Chinese ****, doesn't mean we should.......


That is just so not true.

J.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

JohnJ80 said:


> That is just so not true.
> 
> J.


It is THE truth. America will be 2nd world by 2020...

You don't have a right to say what is SO not true (are you from an episode of the OC?). You're 15.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

No, it isn't. 

I so wish I was 15 but that was many, many moons ago. Now I run an international business that is in the manufacturing sector. 

It's all about the intellectual property and retained earnings. We don't need to have actual manufacturing to generate real wealth as a society. We do, however, need to create and innovate - I suppose you could twist that to say that we are "manufacturing IP" though. Does that mean you can make $80K with a high school education wrenching as unskilled labor in a car factory? No. Those days are gone. You can, however, make the same bucks but you need more education. And, incidentally, that is no different that when you could do well with only a grade school education decades before that, which incidentally, the "manufacturing age" wiped that out. 

it also might interest you to know that the US is the world largest manufacturing country. We are also one of the most automated. 

J.


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## Hill-Pumper (Apr 30, 2010)

JohnJ80 said:


> No, it isn't.
> 
> I so wish I was 15 but that was many, many moons ago. Now I run an international business that is in the manufacturing sector.
> 
> ...


I am going to have to disagree with the notion that IP alone is going to generate wealth. the truth is that IP dose not exist to China. The MS light is a perfect example. It is a knock off of a Lupine. Any product that they decide to copy, they can and do. Also, the thought that education is going to create wealth is wrong..Every year more engineering jobs are shipped over seas. I have watched this first hand in our local area where computers were manufactured..Almost all the jobs including middle management and engineering have been out sourced off shore. Sure, they have some IP for now, but that won't last forever and it certainly does not even come close to offsetting the thousands of manufacturing that were lost.


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

WOW and I thought this thread was about Magicshine lights:madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman:


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## Chromagftw (Feb 12, 2009)

9speed said:


> You don't have a right to say what is SO not true (are you from an episode of the OC?). You're 15.


The OC Rockxerz my boxers! 

OK, back to Magicshine...


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> Dang, is that true? Can anyone else confirm that? I thought for sure they were made in the U.S.


Confirmed... Mine was designed in the USA but made in China.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Jun 7, 2009)

Hill-Pumper said:


> I am going to have to disagree with the notion that IP alone is going to generate wealth. the truth is that IP dose not exist to China. The MS light is a perfect example. It is a knock off of a Lupine. Any product that they decide to copy, they can and do. Also, the thought that education is going to create wealth is wrong..Every year more engineering jobs are shipped over seas. I have watched this first hand in our local area where computers were manufactured..Almost all the jobs including middle management and engineering have been out sourced off shore. Sure, they have some IP for now, but that won't last forever and it certainly does not even come close to offsetting the thousands of manufacturing that were lost.


But do the factory workers in China make a good wage? Can a global economy support high wages for factory labor? Do we really want our economy supported by that kind of job?


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> But do the factory workers in China make a good wage? Can a global economy support high wages for factory labor? Do we really want our economy supported by that kind of job?


What is a global economy?

Your economy of the last 15 years has largely been supported by house prices. Do you want your economy 'supported' by debt creation?

There is no wealth without manufacture.

So much ignorance... you deserve your fall into 3rd world status...

Say hello to the new empire.. say hello to China. Say a prolonged goodbye to your wealth America... your golden era (fuelled by manufacturing) has been and gone.


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## Hill-Pumper (Apr 30, 2010)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> But do the factory workers in China make a good wage? Can a global economy support high wages for factory labor? Do we really want our economy supported by that kind of job?


My point is simply this, we cannot continue to lose good paying jobs and expect the US economy to be healthy.


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## osteo (Sep 9, 2010)

Is it possible to stray back onto the topic directly related to the solutions for the batteries, and updates therein?

The debate on world manufacturing can go on for decades, but this is not the thread for it.

D


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## Hill-Pumper (Apr 30, 2010)

osteo said:


> Is it possible to stray back onto the topic directly related to the solutions for the batteries, and updates therein?
> 
> The debate on world manufacturing can go on for decades, but this is not the thread for it.
> 
> D


I'm fine with that!!!:thumbsup:


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

osteo said:


> Is it possible to stray back onto the topic directly related to the solutions for the batteries, and updates therein?
> 
> The debate on world manufacturing can go on for decades, but this is not the thread for it.
> 
> D


Yes, yes...by all means I agree as well. :thumbsup:... however.... First I have to go outside and bow to the East towards my new Masters..._Those blessed makers of the Best Selling MTB Light Ever Made_...._Oh Masters, we are not worthy, we are not worthy._.. ( * What the hell, if you can't beat um', join um'...:smilewinkgrin: ) ...and by golly wouldn't you know, I'm back on topic.


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