# Liv/Giant isn't making Large WSD bikes anymore!??!!



## MissDaisy (Sep 15, 2014)

I've noticed that the new Liv/Giant (wish they hadn't messed with the branding!) bikes stop at size Medium. I'm almost 5'10" and the Giant W bikes in size large fit me better than any bikes out there, so this is a huge disappointment. Please tell me I've missed something and there will be size Large available (in the same Giant W geometry of their older bikes). If not, if anyone from Giant/Liv/whatever is reading - please take my feedback to your product managers.


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

When I go on their website I see large sizes listed for their WSD mountain bikes... ???

I would surely hope that they wouldn't get rid of larger women's bikes. We're not all 5 foot tall pixies! (I'm 5'9") Being tall doesn't automatically mean we want a men's bike! Heck, I ride an XL WSD road bike frame


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Is there a reason to need a WSD being above 5'3"? Fit can be dialed in through the 3 contact points. My GF is 5'6" and none of her three bikes needed to be a WSD. I dialed her fit with the bar, stem, and saddle.

Thats a serious question...unless its the colors you don't like.

Being taller opens you up to the entire bike line.


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

On my S-Works Fate (WSD XC race hard tail) I didn't have to change the stem like I had to on my Epic, so at least that was one less part I had to change and/or buy when I bought the bike that made the WSD worth it. 

I also noticed with the Fate line that I could get a Fate for cheaper than the equivalent Stumpjumper (as I did look into both when I was looking at the Expert level, thinking a men's would be cheaper). I don't think it mattered for S-Works, naturally.

Usually the shocks will be meant for lighter riders. Just because a girl is 5'10" or whatever doesn't mean she weighs the same as a 5'10" man. 

So there's bits and pieces of differences. I bought my WSD road bike as mainly a color choice (and I had just started riding so components and stuff wasn't a huge importance), and still had to change the stem like I have to on my men's bikes. I don't like red bikes, and a lot of men's stuff is red. I know, frivolous but if I'm going to be on it several thousand miles a year, I want to like what color I'm staring at. Not saying all WSD bikes have good colors... I noticed Specialized has gotten away from "girly" colors lately on their WSD bikes. 

So yeah, there might not be a NEED, but there are geometry differences that could fit the rider better. But yes, it is awesome to be able to fit the whole bike line without worrying too much. That's why I can't participate in most of the "what bike" questions on this women's section because I'm so tall I have no idea what fits a 5'0" girl. 

Plus there's always the fact some people still think a girl has to ride a "girls' bike." My mom is one of those... she commented on my cyclocross bike being a boys' bike the other day... then I pointed to my neon pink girls' road bike and she realized the top tube was straight across on both. LOL. Silly moms.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Alot of the stuff you mention are legit changes...but changes made to justify calling it a "WSD". On my three bikes...I've swapped out the stem, bar, and saddle. Those are parts that help dial in your fit. Just about every person that goes through a bike fit will swap out at least one of the three contact point parts. Thats just how it is when you buy a stock bike.

Suspension can always be dialed in through air pressure...unless you are using a coil fork or shock...then you gotta get different springs.

I don't think bikes are a gender issue...but more a height issue...as in short people in general. There are short men also. 

Companies like Specialized, Trek, and Giant can afford to push WDS bikes. Smaller companies like Pivot and Niner offer XS sized frames.

Here is her Niner on the right...and my Special ed on the left. She was adamant on the colors.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Huh? How is it short sighted?

At what point is a "WSD" bike just a bike with a different paint job and maybe a slightly different component selection? I'd argue it's after you get above 5'6", for any wheelsize.


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Huh? How is it short sighted?
> 
> At what point is a "WSD" bike just a bike with a different paint job and maybe a slightly different component selection? I'd argue it's after you get above 5'6", for any wheelsize.


I think ruling out a women's bike simply because it's marketed toward women is just as short-sighted as ruling out traditional bikes because they're not specifically marketed to women. I also wholly agree that the recent influx of "women's" bikes are opening up a glorious new world for shorter riders of all sexes, but that might be a different conversation.

Many factors go into a decision making process. Sometimes the bike we choose is based on a carefully crafted spreadsheet of pros and cons. But most of the time, we choose our bikes based on a gut feeling--out of all the bikes that suit our needs, we choose the bike that "just feels right." Sometimes, seeing a color that's feminine but doesn't scream butterfly orgy is enough. Sometimes, women want to demonstrate their value to the industry by putting their money toward products that aren't marketing through Interbike hotties and ads featuring nothing but men. Sometimes, having a WSD saddle, narrower grips, and properly tuned suspension can be enough to make the bike "just feel right," especially for someone who has only ridden their boyfriend's too-big bike with a short stem thrown on it.

I think you bring up a really interesting point about smaller companies not being able to market bikes specifically toward women, and it would be a shame for women to ignore the great bikes coming out of companies like Niner because of this. I wonder if that will result in smaller companies leading the charge to actively market their bikes toward both sexes. It'd sure be nice to see more ads featuring women as riders, without the expressed purpose of selling a WSD product.


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

And sometimes a 5'9" woman might just want a purple bike and not an ugly green and black one! ::grumble::


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

catzilla said:


> I think you bring up a really interesting point about smaller companies not being able to market bikes specifically toward women, and it would be a shame for women to ignore the great bikes coming out of companies like Niner because of this. I wonder if that will result in smaller companies leading the charge to actively market their bikes toward both sexes. It'd sure be nice to see more ads featuring women as riders, without the expressed purpose of selling a WSD product.


Small companies don't push WSD's is because a lot of the time...they don't have it in their budget to do so. Big guys do it because they have the budget...and do it for the brand recognition.

From what I see that are different in WSD's...besides the color...are small differences in the stack and reach. Given a properly sized frame, both differences that can me made up with stem changes.

Take a company like Cervelo for example. They are one of the best known bike companies around. You go to any given Tri event...more than 50% of the bikes are Cervelos. They do not make a WSD...but they are extremely popular with women. I don't know the official stats...but I know that Tri's are fairly popular with women. Here is the interesting thing...as popular Tri's are with women...I don't see many (or any) WSD Tri bikes. I actually met my GF at the bike shop. She was buying a Cervelo and I was wheeling mine in.

I worked for a bike shop and a local bike builder. Lots of women walk in thinking they need a WSD...because well...its made for women...but in actuality they can have a good proper fit on a similarly sized "mens" bike.

Unless you're under 5'5"...there really is no need to ride a WSD to get a proper fitting bike. Unless you're really hung up on the color...which IME...most women aren't.

Smallest girl I fit is 5ft tall. Put her on a XS 650 wheeled Cervelo RS.

So there is no need to limit yourself to a WSD just for the sake of having one.


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

RS VR6 said:


> So there is no need to limit yourself to a WSD just for the sake of having one.


I totally agree with this. In the end, I think WSDs are indeed a marketing strategy. However, I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing as long as there aren't sacrifices to quality--which no longer seems to be the case.

The difference between women's products in Tri and Road biking is that both of those sports have always had a relatively large female demographic, while that demographic is on the smaller (but swiftly growing) side in MTB. After years of marketing specifically to men (via Interbike babes, ads featuring only men, etc.), the MTB industry is realizing that in order to grow a stagnating MTB market, they need to harness the untapped women's market.

But the industry is starting off in a hole due to the image they've worked so hard to create over the past decades (the image that MTB is a young-male dominated sport where injuries, blood, and gnarly crashes define "a good ride.") The truth is the best way to get women into mountain biking is to have more women into mountain biking, which creates a chicken and egg situation. When women see products and entire bike companies created to serve them, they know beyond doubt that they aren't the only woman in the sport--a feeling that was all to common to many of us who started riding in the 90s. Marketing toward women is less about changing designs than changing perceptions, both for potential female riders and for industry bigwigs who spent so long ignoring such a large untapped market.

My hope is that once the mountain biking demographic is as diverse as road and tri, that companies will get back to basics. I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see companies at 2025 Interbike unveiling their brand-new one-of-a-kind unisex bikes featuring free contact-point product swaps and ads (and salespeople) that don't just speak to men or women, but to riders.

Good conversation, by the way. I've had my fair share of discussions about the pros and cons of women specific marketing and products, and no one has brought up your point about the disadvantage this could give smaller companies. The flip side is that smaller companies tend to have higher end products, and experienced riders of all sexes often know exactly what they want and are less susceptible to industry trends.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

The women's market is still an extremely small niche segment. In reality...there are a lot of other sports that appeal to women more than cycling.

For a small company to put money into developing WSD's is a huge financial risk. If the bikes do not sell...it can put them deep into a hole. All the existing WSD bikes are from the big companies with big budgets. They can afford to develop bikes from the ground up. I can guarantee you that when the bean counters look at the bottom line and the WSD bikes are losing money...you can bet that they'll either scale back...or stop the line like Transition and Orbea did.

If there was a company that was sustainable by selling only women's bikes...there would be one...but there isn't. Juliana bikes was recently launched...but it has the support of Santa Cruz. They are offshoots of existing Santa Cruz models.

Big companies can also afford to sponsor the big name athletes to further their street cred. Giant has the #1 XC mountain biker in the world in Jolanda Neff and probably the best female cyclist of her or any other generation in Marianne Vos. Giant to moving to 650b wheeled bikes...and guess what Neff and Wloszczowska rode this year? 

Lots of women ask why bike shops don't carry more WSD bikes...the answer pretty simple...its just that they don't sell that well...especially the uber high end models. There is an S-Works Fate sitting at the shop. Its 7500 bucks...its been sitting for months...and it'll keep sitting while the "mens" S-Works bikes keep coming in and selling.

I remember seeing a girl on a local trail a few months back. She was on a full rigid single speed steel Salsa...and she was ripping.


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## the other Anne (Feb 14, 2014)

> The women's market is still an extremely small niche segment.


How small? Anyone have numbers on the percent of mountain bike buyers who are women? 5%? 10%? 20%?


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

RS VR6 said:


> Lots of women ask why bike shops don't carry more WSD bikes...the answer pretty simple...its just that they don't sell that well...especially the uber high end models. There is an S-Works Fate sitting at the shop. Its 7500 bucks...its been sitting for months...and it'll keep sitting while the "mens" S-Works bikes keep coming in and selling.


I'm sorry, but I think it's really stupid for a store to have a S-Works Fate in stock to sell because it IS a niche bike... my local Specialized concept store has sold 2 S-Works Fates this year - 1 to me (cat 1 XC racer with a vague goal of reaching the pro level) and 1 to a lawyer's wife, and they were both special orders. Mine hung on the wall for about 3 weeks until I had the money to pay for it, otherwise one never sat in the store... actually, that kinda goes for their men's S-Works as well - all of them are special orders, and yet they're one of the highest volume S-Works dealers in the country... but I digress. I don't think any shop would be smart to carry the top of the line WSD bikes because it is so niche. You'd have to be a little crazy (or married to a lawyer apparently) to want a $7500 mountain bike to get you into the sport. However, I do see the other levels of Fates selling quite nicely, including floor stock.

(what size is this said S-Works Fate and wanna sell it for like 70% off? Mahahaha)

The whole WSD just might be dependent on location. Local preferences might dictate what women will end up on more. Who knows. I also think there might be a stronger gravitation towards WSD road bikes than mountain bikes. I'd like to theorize that's due to lack of options on the mountain side. When I bought my Epic there wasn't a WSD XC race duel-squish option from Specialized, so the Epic was kind of the only option. Of course that's been remedied with the release of the Era, but I must admit I'll get another Epic over getting an Era (reason being there's greater model choices with the Epic and I want a World Cup-level).

Like stated earlier, I am lucky because I am 5'9" so I don't have to worry about not finding a bike small enough... I don't envy short girls in that aspect at all! I do have a preference towards flat black and raspberry pink, though... And I know I can get on a Fate, and it'll just fit... no stem changes, no saddle changes... Two less items to buy when you're plopping down enough to buy a small car


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

catzilla said:


> My hope is that once the mountain biking demographic is as diverse as road and tri, that companies will get back to basics. I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see companies at 2025 Interbike unveiling their brand-new one-of-a-kind unisex bikes featuring free contact-point product swaps and ads (and salespeople) that don't just speak to men or women, but to riders.
> 
> Good conversation, by the way. I've had my fair share of discussions about the pros and cons of women specific marketing and products, and no one has brought up your point about the disadvantage this could give smaller companies. The flip side is that smaller companies tend to have higher end products, and experienced riders of all sexes often know exactly what they want and are less susceptible to industry trends.


In my experience, good shops already do this. I haven't bought a stock bike in years, but when I was in between jobs, I worked at the local shop, and I sold and repaired bikes. We swapped bars, stems, saddles, seat posts, grips, etc for a LOT of people. It could get fairly labor intensive, but we had happy, repeat customers.

I don't think that needs to boil down to unisex bikes; I think they already ARE unisex, aside from paint jobs that scream "STEREOTYPICAL FEMALE COLOR". Add an additional XS framesize and you've got it covered. After that, it's on the LBS to take care of the customer. A bike fit. Free swaps of equivalent parts. Stuff they should be doing already.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I will say this. I just purchased a Liv Intrigue (S, sorry this is a slight derailment...) and it is amazing. This bike has a very stable feel and a unique sense of balance compared to any other bike I've been one. The rep describe to me the very specific changes they've made to the frame geometry, wsd I suppose but all I know is I LOVE this bike.


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## nzkiwigirl (Nov 30, 2014)

On the height charts for Liv/Giant they specify that a medium is for 5'8 to over 6'0 and a small for 5'4 to 5'10. It is quite different from their other sizing. I posted a thread above as I am thoroughly confused as to what size to go for! I am normally a medium but looking at their chart at being in-between 5'6 and5'7 I would be a small! The sales guy I saw was useless and they didn't even have a small for me to trial. So it seems like they have made their medium a large in a way?


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

I had a Liv/Giant bike back in 2012, and I'm 5'9" and a Medium was WAY TOO SMALL. My knees were practically up in my chest at the top of the pedal stroke and it was comical how high I had to put the seat to get proper leg extension. 

I think that would be really weird if a medium was for 5'8" and taller... who the hell are they expecting to sell the larges to, tall men?! (I know there are women over 6' tall, but I'd say it's more of an exception than a common finding.) For a WSD line, I think they would want to size on the smaller range of things, not the taller.


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## the other Anne (Feb 14, 2014)

It would be weird if the medium were for 5'8" and taller, and even weirder if the women's bike sizes went up to over 6'0" and only down to 5'4". Those are men's sizes. Hardly any women are taller than 6'0", and lots of women are shorter than 5'4".


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