# Ebike issues in Europe?



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

If I am not mistaken the ebike market is substantially larger in Europe and has greater acceptance by the MTB community. I also beleive that Europe have greater power restrictions, 250w I think as opposed to 750w in the US. 

I'm curious if many of the European trails have ebike restrictions and if there is an issue with people riding modified/customized overpowered ebikes? Do we even have many European users on this forum? Are they as concerned with access like we are? 

I know the US is much different than Europe but I'm just wondering what issues Europe or any non US country has encountered with ebikes.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

Here in Switzerland its mostly old folks crashing them, speed related.
As far as access, we are fairly limited anyway except for a few Cantons (states), but the murmers are starting. As commuters l dont think people care, but as 120mm FS enduro bikes are starting to annoy.
Im a (kids) mtb trainer in our club, anywhere from 20 to 50 kids turn up each week for training (approx 80 members from 190 are kids). We trainers are waiting for the day that "little Johnny" comes on an Ebike, concensus is that he wont be welcome (disabilities aside). 
I find it amazing how many high achool kids here have Ebikes, and many arent going further than 3kms.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

cmg71 said:


> Here in Switzerland its mostly old folks crashing them, speed related.
> As far as access, we are fairly limited anyway except for a few Cantons (states), but the murmers are starting. As commuters l dont think people care, but as 120mm FS enduro bikes are starting to annoy.
> Im a (kids) mtb trainer in our club, anywhere from 20 to 50 kids turn up each week for training (approx 80 members from 190 are kids). We trainers are waiting for the day that "little Johnny" comes on an Ebike, concensus is that he wont be welcome (disabilities aside).
> I find it amazing how many high achool kids here have Ebikes, and many arent going further than 3kms.


IMO the kids that buy the ebikes and don't travel farther than 3kms are probably ones that are just trying to keep up their friends and look cool. It's like my mom wanting an iPhone. She only needs a flip phone, doesn't text, and doesn't even realize her iphone has a browser but she does not want to seem "ghetto." It's kinda silly because the flip phone would be so much better for her because of battery life and simplicity of design.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

In Scotland we have amazing access rights and eBikes could be ridden in most places you could take a mountain bike. 

My gripe with them is the impact they could have at MTB trail centers but I have yet to see an explosion of them. I typically see one or two, they stand out on the climbs, and an old guy almost ran into me on one a few months ago. Shops are pushing them hard though so I reckon we will see more of them in the wild.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Europe in General has a very different view on "wilderness" and keeping it pristine compared to the US. Roads, trains, Sky Trams, etc litter the mountains in mainland Europe, and the population density is much greater there than in the US, specifically the western US.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

I was recently in Finale (Liguria), Italy. Was mtbing for a week, quite a few e-bikes there, and l saw no restrictions on their use. I did get confused by how often you'd see an e-bike on a shuttle though......

Just to be clear, my daughter and l were never on a shuttle , we averaged 900 elevation metres a day for the 5 days.

As Pig said, shops are pushing them hard, it'll get worse. I also notice Felt (l think) have a e-roadbike, although lm guessing a few other brands have them by now too.


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

In Switzerland it looks to me it's a no issue. I've never seen a place where e-bike are prohibited.

Over-powered e-bikes is something nonexistent. Some may exist but it's like seeing a dirt bike in the forest, it practically never happen.

I spent last week in Graubünden, a mountain state quite famous for MTB. It's the end of the season and not full of bikers but, apart from DH bikers, I would say that about 20% riders I saw were on e-bikes.

Northern Italy push hard to develop MTB tourism and e-bikes are certainly included.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I've ridden in various places across the Alps and Dolomites on the road more than on dirt. There are plenty of rental ebikes on the paved famous mountain passes and around ski areas with tourists out cruising around. In bike centric hotels, I'd see almost 50/50 etmbs to mtbs in the storage areas, with far less than that on the trails themselves.

I'm no expert on trail access in mainland Europe, but I've spent a lot of time there, and talked to a few EU trail guys. There are several differences between there and here, especially in the Western US where I live.

People have been settled in the mountains there forever, and many/most of the trails predate mountain bikes, they're somewhere in the spectrum of old hiking/cart path/dirt roads, often with sections that are steeper than anything would be purpose built for bikes. Because there is so much that was already there, they are way behind where we are in small town/metropolitan/urban interface trail/park system networks designed with mtbs in mind.

There are ski areas with lifts everywhere, which have been hauling hikers and now bikers up in the summer for decades, because once you get up high, there's restaurants to hang out at and drink beer and hut systems where you can spend the night. In bike centric places like Garda, there's multiple shuttle services too, with full size buses hauing big trailers full of bikes all over the place. With that being the norm, the Euros are way past the "It's cheating" thing that some are hung up on here. Some of the rails just suck to climb because they're so steep, so with a lift right there, why bother?

Access is different and I don't know enough to comment except their national parks are somewhat like our USFS/BLM, trails are sometimes on or crossing private land, sometimes trails aren't bike legal, but everyone rides anyway without any obvious repercussions. Just showing up as a tourist, I couldn't figure it out, it'd be nice to have someone with access experience there explain it.

The main issues I've come across on the interwebs has been S-Pedelec speed issues (250w/28mph), and some places are struggling with how to integrate them into their bike networks. And increased accidents and injuries with ebikes in general. More speed and gapers = more ER visits, no surprise there.

Super fast e-bikes face banishment from Dutch cycle lanes - DutchNews.nl

What Is Speed-Pedelecs' Best Place in Traffic?

https://www.thelocal.ch/20150623/spike-in-e-bike-accidents-prompts-safety-campaign

The only emtb link I've found is anecdotal. 
http://forums.mtbr.com/recycle-bin/proposal-ebike-advocates-1012786-3.html#post12647270

Regulation of what is sold and used as an pedelec/S-pedelec is much more tightly controlled than here, manufacturers have to certify that what they claim about their bikes is true, so Bafang being flexible in how they powerful they claim their motors to be doesn't really work there. There are fines and enforcement, I think for shops too. Anything over that has to be registered as a moped and woe is you if you get caught without the necessary legal requirements for such. Big fines. S-Pedelcs in some countries are also being considered mopeds. Kit bikes can be legal as a moped or, I've heard not legal at all, but I can't confirm that. I've only seen OEM ebikes or some retrofitted with a hub motor.

Tuning happens, lots of riders chafe at the 15.5mph speed limits.

I've ridden with lots of emtbs there, it's doesn't appear to be an issue, but again I just see what's on the surface. If would have been wise if we had adopted the same regs. Our problems are that our regs aren't close to being the same, allowing ebikes that aren't the same, our enforcement isn't the same, and culturally, we have a different relationship to bicycles, here we have opponents, to both mtbs and road bikes.

Unfortunately, it's two different situations.


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## hobbit (Apr 23, 2007)

As far as the UK is concerned, for pedelecs like Levos, these are legally classed the same as normal mtbs and can ride in all the same places. 
As for usage, I see more every time I'm at a trail centre, usually ridden by the 50+, which is the demographic I fit in. Typically see 3 or 4 everytime I'm out - mainly levo and haibikes. 
Only ever seen one unrestricted ebike and that was a converted voodoo fs up at Afan forest, ridden by someone even older than me! Guy was in the middle of nowhere, but not on the mtb trail, and said he used it to enable him to still get out in the forest - he reckoned it cost him 500 GBP to modify and was capable of 35 mph!!! Have even seen a guy in his 70s at the top of bridleway on an e commuter - slick tyres and all.
Ebikes still seem to be used by the more senior rider but in my experience these are mainly experienced riders rather than newbys.


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## Jamie_MTB (Nov 18, 2004)

The only issues I've encountered in the UK is abuse from other riders! words like cheat\cheater, are you disabled, why bother!! This is mainly at Trail Centres (purpose-built trails), it tends to stop when you're lapping them. Thankfully I rarely ride Trail Centres.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Jamie_MTB said:


> The only issues I've encountered in the UK is abuse from other riders! words like cheat\cheater, are you disabled, why bother!! This is mainly at Trail Centers...


That's terrible. What trail centers was that?

I've seen eBikes at trail centers regularly but I've never seen anyone say anything derogatory to the riders. In fact I've never seen anyone say anything unkind to any other rider. They tend be very friendly places with everyone just getting along sand trying to help each other out.

I'm not a fan of ebikes myself but I don't make the rules. If the center owners allow eBikes to ride there then as far as I'm concerned they're doing nothing wrong. Different if they were banned and poaching the trails but why should the eBiker get abuse if they're not doing anything wrong?


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## hobbit (Apr 23, 2007)

I ride trail centres all the time on my Levo and have never heard a bad word: most riders are just curious as to what I think of it. Any that think I might be cheating soon revise their thoughts when I pass them..... on the downhills. 😂


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## Jamie_MTB (Nov 18, 2004)

Mr Pig said:


> That's terrible. What trail centers was that?


A well-known trail centre in the North East.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Jamie_MTB said:


> A well-known trail centre in the North East.


England? That explains it!

For anyone not from the UK, the English are notoriously unfriendly and consider anything above Watford Gap as being North ;0)


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## nutjoe (May 21, 2019)

When me and my wife were on a tour in St. Petersburg (https://petersburg.expert/blog/church-of-the-savior-on-spilled-blood-history-photos-tickets/), we booked ebikes at Electra bike sharing. It was the most wonderful time of the year when we could be a cycling tourists and the most amazing experience. This summer we're coming again.


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## Vrock (Jan 24, 2004)

In Spain the only places where you can't ride a MTB are National Parks, everywhere else MTB and EMTB live together in perfect harmony. Most ERiders are +50 years old and they are never going to give a problem. Everybody is riding mid-drive pedelecs restricted to 25kmh.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Harryman said:


> I've ridden in various places across the Alps and Dolomites on the road more than on dirt. There are plenty of rental ebikes on the paved famous mountain passes and around ski areas with tourists out cruising around. In bike centric hotels, I'd see almost 50/50 etmbs to mtbs in the storage areas, with far less than that on the trails themselves.
> 
> I'm no expert on trail access in mainland Europe, but I've spent a lot of time there, and talked to a few EU trail guys. There are several differences between there and here, especially in the Western US where I live.
> 
> ...


Bafang sold 500,000 motors to people in the Netherlands in 2015 alone. It would be better to hear from actual Europeans rather than Americans who think they know Europe because they visited there.

https://www.bike-eu.com/home/nieuws...3.1972719646.1558708741-1515445692.1558708741


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

figofspee said:


> Bafang sold 500,000 motors to people in the Netherlands in 2015 alone. It would be better to hear from actual Europeans rather than Americans who think they know Europe because they visited there.
> 
> https://www.bike-eu.com/home/nieuws...3.1972719646.1558708741-1515445692.1558708741


The vast majority of those are probably used on commuters...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

figofspee said:


> Bafang sold 500,000 motors to people in the Netherlands in 2015 alone. It would be better to hear from actual Europeans rather than Americans who think they know Europe because they visited there.
> 
> https://www.bike-eu.com/home/nieuws...3.1972719646.1558708741-1515445692.1558708741


This is a two year old thread, I'm sure things have changed.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

A bit

https://www.bike-magazin.de/e_mtb/e...kunft-welche-rolle-spielen-e-mtbs/a40731.html


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Le Duke said:


> The vast majority of those are probably used on commuters...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is far easier to control the behavior of commuters then it is for trail riders. I see more law enforcement in 10 miles of street riding then I will see on trails in a year or even decade. If bafang is one of the biggest, if not the biggest motor dealer in Europe, then the constant assertion that things are so much different over there is a lie.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> This is a two year old thread, I'm sure things have changed.


Changed from what to what?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

25 kph and 250w, with some actual consequences for manufacturers and riders that break the rules? Works for me.

-Walt


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Walt said:


> 25 kph and 250w, with some actual consequences for manufacturers and riders that break the rules? Works for me.
> 
> -Walt


17 kph is all I would need off-road. If somebody is caught with a waltworks bike that they put a motor on, what punishment should we give to you, the manufacturer.


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