# Upgrading JUST the freehub body? Shimano



## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Recently had a warranty fix on my bike and the shop replaced my entire wheel. It has a Shimano Fh-mt200b I feel like there is ALOT of play where the chain doesn't engage.

Is it possible to replace this for one that will engage sooner. I'm not 100% sure I am asking this quest correctly this is the best way I can explain it.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Sounds like you're saying your hub has too few points of engagement (POE). That's the number of times the freehub will "catch" in 360 degrees of rotation. If a hub has 16 POE, it will catch every 22.5 degrees. I'm not sure, but I believe that is what your hub has, and I don't think it can be improved. Many/most hubs have higher POEs, some much higher. One set of wheels I'm using has 108 POE. 

Somebody more familiar with that hub can tell you if it can be improved. Otherwise, you'll need a different hub to get higher POE.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Yes I'm wondering if I can replace just this portion of my wheel. (Pic)










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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

No, Shimano hubs only fit the Shimano freehub for which they were designed. Nothing else should fit. Unfortunately there are hundreds of hub and freehub designs and none of them follow any sort of standard. You need to replace the whole hub. Some Shimano hubs are reliable, but the freehub mechanism on most is crap.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

So my best bet is an entirely new wheel set? 


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Yes. You can replace just the hub, but you'll likely need new spokes, and a decent mechanic will charge $50+ for the job. Unless you have a really nice rim, that's not worth it. Buying a new wheel makes more sense.

You have an Acera-level hub, which the bike manufacturer used because it's cheap and it is sufficient for most people buying bikes with Acera level parts.

You don't need a new wheel set, just a new rear wheel, for now. What bike is this?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

be aware that a new wheel with better engagement can cost a good amount, depending on what you get. You're going to want to set yourself a budget and stick with it for this, but you will also need to be realistic with it. Part of that is going to depend on what the bike is.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

You would need a hub that allows you to swap out the ratchet gear or the whole pawl. With hubs such as DT Swiss 350 or Hope Pro4, you can swap out the pawl or the ratchet for more engagement or just to replace due to wear. You can also swap out the pawl for XD and install a SRAM XD specific cassette too.

DT Swiss offers ratchet upgrades for the 350 series hub. I don't know for sure if Hope does the same thing. I think Hope has their hubs and pawls set to one specific setup unless they changed something recently. From what I'm guessing based on what you've said (and what others have pointed out), you want more engagement.

Here is a video how you can take the pawl apart on a DT Swiss hub. It gives you an example how DT Swiss rear hubs come apart for upgrades or parts replacement. I actually run DT Swiss 350 hubs on my road bike and mountain bike!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Battery said:


> I don't know for sure if Hope does the same thing. I think Hope has their hubs and pawls set to one specific setup unless they changed something recently.


VERY few hub manufacturers allow you to change the engagement of the hubs. Most are either DT Swiss or use the same type of internals.

I9 did this for a time, but the way they did it was to just install fewer pawls on their hubs from the factory, and if you wanted more engagement, you could buy/install more pawls. But most don't do that.

OP has an inexpensive Shimano hub. If he wants better engagement, it won't be worth replacing the hub itself (rim will be pretty inexpensive/low end, and not worth re-lacing onto a different hub). He would need a whole new wheel, but it begs the question of whether even that is worth it for the bike. Most hubs with better engagement than inexpensive Shimano hubs are going to cost quite a bit more than that Shimano hub.

I found OP's hub for sale on ebay for $33. That's CHEAP. DT Swiss 350 rear hub on JensonUSA is just under $250. I'm going to guess that's unlikely for OP to be willing to purchase. More attainable would be wheels built on Bitex hubs from bikehubstore.com (can have them build wheels for $60/wheel), but at $110 for a rear hub, that's still many times the cost of OP's hub. And I dunno what the engagement on those is. I'm sure someone on mtbr knows and there may be a thread on them in the wheels forum.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Harold said:


> VERY few hub manufacturers allow you to change the engagement of the hubs. Most are either DT Swiss or use the same type of internals.
> 
> I9 did this for a time, but the way they did it was to just install fewer pawls on their hubs from the factory, and if you wanted more engagement, you could buy/install more pawls. But most don't do that.
> 
> ...


My friend was in the same boat. His rear hub went out and wanted to get a SRAM or Shimano hub to replace it. I told him it's not worth the money because they aren't exactly the greatest quality. He would have to pay a shop to lace up the new hub and probably replace a couple other bits along the way which would add up in cost. I told him it would be way cheaper to just find a used wheel set that has better hubs like DT Swiss and what not.

I actually rode 200+ miles on a 54 point engagement Bitex hub and they are very good quality. I was rather surprised. The anti-bite technology actually works. My cassettes slide off without getting stuck on the pawl. I also love the sound that the hub makes too. Op can probably speak with Wayne at Speed Gear Bike Shop and have a wheel set built up for $300-400 range using Bitex hubs and Stan's rims. Wayne can build them in boost, non-boost, and in any width needed.

I still have my Bitex XD boost hubs in my garage from a previous build. If the OP wants them, I'll sell dirt cheap but they would need an XD cassette. I have less than 30 miles on them.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Is OP's hub and frame 141 QR? That will be hard to find a quality replacement.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mack_turtle said:


> Is OP's hub and frame 141 QR? That will be hard to find a quality replacement.


yet another reason we need to know what bike OP has.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Norco Fluid HT 4 27.5 
I understand it's considered entry level but Its a massive upgrade to what I had before.
I've allready upgraded the fork to a suntour raidon much lighter than the coil spring that came stock. Added a dropper as well









This is an older picture the rear wheel is now an WTB st i29 light


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Relevant https://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/141-qr-rear-help-1038271.html


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> Norco Fluid HT 4 27.5
> I understand it's considered entry level but Its a massive upgrade to what I had before.
> I've allready upgraded the fork to a suntour raidon much lighter than the coil spring that came stock. Added a dropper as well
> 
> ...


Ok, that's good to know. It's not entirely about how much you spent on your bike, but it's also useful to know what the manufacturer specs for the top trim for that model. If the top trim for the model is $500, I sure wouldn't be spending $300+ on a new wheel. But considering that the bike you have is just a lower trim of a bike that Norco sells for as much as $1700, that's a good reference and points to it being a more upgradeable platform.

You still need to figure out a budget for this, though.

With 9x141 hub spacing, your hub options will be limited. Not many budget hubs will fit that spacing. Boost hubs with swappable end caps will do it (even if the hub isn't sold in a specific 9x141 trim, swapping the thru axle end caps for qr end caps for a boost version of the hub should work).

For example, it looks like the Bitex hubs I referenced don't have swappable end caps. Battery should be able to confirm, since he says he has some. But for those, I don't see a 9x141 option. DT Swiss does swappable end caps. Hope does. Industry Nine does. That makes them all easy to fit into a 9x141 frame. But they're also much more expensive hubs that'll result in a much more expensive wheelset.

It's also worth noting that the bike looks to be a 27.5+ bike. Looking at the spec, I can't tell who makes the rims. "Alloy XD26" is pretty meaningless. Might be worth getting a whole wheelset because better rims could certainly be worthwhile. Spec does say that they're 30mm internal width, which is on the narrow side for plus rims, too. I'm using 30mm rims with 2.6" tires, and a fair number of people say that I should even be using wider rims. If you went with new rims on both wheels, you might be able to get wider ones (say, 35mm) for the same weight, or keep the same width rims and get lighter ones.

Of course, all this pushes the cost higher. Is getting a better-engaging rear hub worth this expense for you? What are you willing to spend?

You've certainly dived into the rabbit hole of upgrades. This is why I've just bought a frame and built it up how I like to begin with for my last 3+ bikes (I say + because my commuter has been rebuilt through a few iterations as my needs have changed over the years, and I think I might be changing the wheels to suit other needs soon).


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

I remember reading that thread awhile back when my original hub went out. I still want to get the most out of this bike if I can.

This is the current rear wheel









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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

This is a very interesting topic...

as I dove briefly into upgrading hubs or whole wheelsets for my bike (18 timberjack gx1, 27.5 i41mm with src hubs 148x12, ~$1400) 
I noticed, too, that you can't easily just get better hubs, and that it's hard to find upgrades that are priced for my bike's price range.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

My vote is for leaving them alone.

-keeping on the gas is good practice, and low engagement is a reminder to do so
-those wheels are cheapo-depot, but they're not going to hold you back. If you're progressing quickly you're gonna mess up a wheel eventually... might as well be these.
-there aren't any good 141mm hubs anyway
-that WTB rim is quite good. Replacing the hub will require you to replace the spokes or hang up a good rim.
-going whole-hog on upgrades isn't a good way to do this. You end up buying 2 bikes.

it may be possible to buy a boost 148mm hub, and then use the qr endcaps for that hub.



Harold said:


> Looking at the spec, I can't tell who makes the rims. "Alloy XD26" is pretty meaningless.


Most likely alex xd-lite rims. They're fine.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

scottzg said:


> My vote is for leaving them alone.


kinda where I was going. possible to upgrade, but a pretty expensive change, especially for a low-midpriced hardtail.



scottzg said:


> -there aren't any good 141mm hubs anyway...
> 
> it may be possible to buy a boost 148mm hub, and then use the qr endcaps for that hub.


kinda contradictory. I get your point about there being no good MIDPRICED 141 hubs, though. There's plenty of cheap oem stuff. And the top shelf stuff with swappable endcaps that'll most likely work.



scottzg said:


> Most likely alex xd-lite rims. They're fine.


That was the closest thing that turned up, but it didn't match exactly with rim spec, unless it's an oem thing not listed on their website (which happens often enough in those cases). Still, it irritates me when bike manufacturers list a spec don't don't actually tell you what it is.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

I found what seems to be an affordable option 
In this video the guy describes the exact same thing that I am experiencing. He's had the same 9x141qr






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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

scottzg said:


> My vote is for leaving them alone.
> 
> -keeping on the gas is good practice, and low engagement is a reminder to do so
> -those wheels are cheapo-depot, but they're not going to hold you back. If you're progressing quickly you're gonna mess up a wheel eventually... might as well be these.
> ...


"keeping on the gas" what does that mean?

The other option is to find a hub that will work with the WTB wheel.
At this point I will leave the front wheel alone until I can find a good deal.

For what I spent on this bike i still wouldn't be in "decent" fs mtb range. With all these upgrades. Unless I bought a used fs bike.

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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Jonilink said:


> "keeping on the gas" what does that mean?


Keep pressure on the pedals.

Any hub will work with your rim, provided the hole count is the same. You'll have to pay for new spokes (~60$) and a rebuild (~60$). Not really worthwhile.

There are expensive hubs ($200+) that can be converted to 141mm by using QR endcaps, as was done in your video.

Although 16poe is pretty dang slow, a fast hub is a luxury good, not an essential.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

If 16 poe is low then what is "good" and are the good ones affordable?

At this point I'm wanting a good hub not bottom of the barrel


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> If 16 poe is low then what is "good" and are the good ones affordable?
> 
> At this point I'm wanting a good hub not bottom of the barrel
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I mean, you can go as high as "infinite" with Onyx hubs. Highest for a pawl hub is 690 with Industry Nine Hydra. You're going to spend for that. "Good enough" is probably in the 30-50 ish range and you'll spend a little less for that.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

the nicer hubs that come to mind are:
Hope
Hadley
DT Swiss
Chris King
Industry Nine
Onyx
White Industries
The "generic" Bitex hubs sold on BikeHubStore.com are supposed to be pretty good.

the point is partly the quickness of engagement that comes with a high POE hub. the other advantage of a high-quality hub is just that is rolls smoother, is less prone to dirt contamination, and holds up better to riding. some hubs have weak freehubs, weak bearings, and weak axles that will flex, fail and snap under load. with a cheap hub, you're kind of screwed when that happens, which is why my bike has one of those fancier hubs listed above. I've seen too many bikes come into shops with thrashed freehubs and the manufacturers do no seem interested in making better ones or even making it easy to find replacements.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)




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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

mack_turtle said:


> View attachment 1276057


Looks like Hope is the sweet spot feels like diminishing returns after that and I'm sure the price sky rockets

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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

I couldn't find much in specs on the Bitex hubs tho 

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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

How accurate is this? Seems like other feel the same way










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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Jonilink said:


> I couldn't find much in specs on the Bitex hubs tho


https://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/initial-thoughts-bikehubstore-mtb270-mtb180-hubs-948757.html

short story- they are relatively cheap and reliable for the price.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Jonilink said:


> How accurate is this? Seems like other feel the same way


subjective. I can definitely feel the difference between my old Stans 3.30 hub and my Hadley. I suppose there's a sort of princess-and-the-pea thing going on, but when you're grunting your way up a steep hill with loose rocks and ledges, you need every little tiny bit you can get. if you don't have to do a ton of trials-type moves to keep from falling over, it might not matter.

that said, I'd rather have a strong hub that I can trust with low POE than a high-POE hub that shatters bearings and slips. DT Swiss 350 is a good example of such a hub.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

This seems too good to be true  hope hubs are double the price with less engagement time to do more research thanks for finding that thread










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## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

Harold said:


> be aware that a new wheel with better engagement can cost a good amount, depending on what you get. You're going to want to set yourself a budget and stick with it for this, but you will also need to be realistic with it. Part of that is going to depend on what the bike is.


There are many top tier wheels from 2017 and 2018 on Amazon. I have bought wheels that were 70% off their original price because they aren't the latest model.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

A/C in Az said:


> There are many top tier wheels from 2017 and 2018 on Amazon. I have bought wheels that were 70% off their original price because they aren't the latest model.


Good idea! Doing my research tho these bhs hubs are exactly what I need and would be a better upgrade than a new wheel with a questionable hub

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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Found the catch.... they seem to only come in 28 spoke hole count my rear wheel is 32

Lol nvm the 32 hole doesn't come in green  still can't believe this price tho may pull the trigger 
.

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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Jonilink said:


> I couldn't find much in specs on the Bitex hubs tho
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Specs are hard to find for them. I definitely loved them on my bikes though. They sound like pissed off bees when you are moving at fast speeds.

Check out Wayne's wheels! He builds them with Bitex hubs for $300-400 with any spoke/spacing setup you might need. He also builds with premium hubs as well. 
https://www.speedgearbike.com/

Also, here is some of Wayne's information about Bitex hubs: https://www.speedgearbike.com/439096277


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Jonilink said:


> Found the catch.... they seem to only come in 28 spoke hole count my rear wheel is 32
> 
> Lol nvm the 32 hole doesn't come in green  still can't believe this price tho Iay pull the trigger


do you think it will be worth it to lace your old rim to the new hub? 32 spokes are going to cost $1-2 bucks each at your LBS. (yes, that's a reasonable price for individual spokes for a local bike shop.) labor will be at least $50. you will most likely not be able to reuse the old spokes because spoke lengths have to be calculated to within a millimeter of the right length or the wheel won't come together right. I can confirm this with personal bad experiences.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Hub 109
Spokes 32
Labor 36
180-200 depending on what kind of deal my lbs gives me. This upgrade for me is worth it. Especially once the hope hubs are 250 alone. Also for my needs and the higher poe this seems like the best choice. 


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

good job! that sounds like a good deal.

does that hub come in a 141x9 QR configuration? I didn't see it there.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mack_turtle said:


> good job! that sounds like a good deal.
> 
> does that hub come in a 141x9 QR configuration? I didn't see it there.


I didn't see one on my search. also does not look convertible, which I pointed out before OP told us what bike this was for. It sits at a great price point, but if it won't work, it won't work.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Harold said:


> I didn't see one on my search. also does not look convertible, which I pointed out before OP told us what bike this was for. It sits at a great price point, but if it won't work, it won't work.












Does this option I have circled mean it will not necessarily be the kind of QR that will fit bikes 9x141?

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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Actually scrolling down I don't see it either I'll keep looking 


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

I should probably call the company but doesn't this look like the correct adapter?

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

So the thing about thru axle/qr standards is that the thru axle version that's the "same width" is 7mm wider than the qr version. So if the hub in question is a 12x142mm hub, then the qr version of that hub is 9x135.

The thru axle "version" of a 9x141mm hub is 12x148. 7mm wider than the qr version. Bitex's boost rear hubs listed on bikehubstore.com are the 211R and the 212R. BHS doesn't sell a conversion kit for that hub.

There are some weird spacings out there, too that don't conform to this. I've seen them on road bikes and on some of the chiner carbon mtb frames. Don't get confused by them.

There's a chart on the page for that axle (to the right of the pic on the desktop version of the website) that lists out the available versions. There is no 9x141mm axle available.

You might read about non-boost to boost conversion kits. I've never seen one available for qr hubs. All the ones I've seen have been for thru axle hubs.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Harold said:


> So the thing about thru axle/qr standards is that the thru axle version that's the "same width" is 7mm wider than the qr version. So if the hub in question is a 12x142mm hub, then the qr version of that hub is 9x135.
> 
> The thru axle "version" of a 9x141mm hub is 12x148. 7mm wider than the qr version. Bitex's boost rear hubs listed on bikehubstore.com are the 211R and the 212R. BHS doesn't sell a conversion kit for that hub.
> 
> ...


Good post.

Hopefully adding some history will make the weirdness that is 141mm more clear-

It used to be that there was 135QR and 142mm axle standards. 142 is a 135QR hub body that employs a through-axle.

Boost 148 spacing was introduced as a through-axle standard, with no QR variation. It's a wider 142.

QR is cheaper for the frame builder, so 141QR was introduced, using a 148 hub and QR endcaps. A manufacturer who sells hubs or frames individually does not realize any benefit in 141QR, so it only exists on budget complete bikes.

So... in theory, a 141 hub is a boost hub with QR endcaps, and basically all hub manufacturers make those things, but there's no market to sell them separately because putting a fancy hub on a budget bike is quite rare. The parts are out there, but it's mostly untested.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

"Putting a fancy hub on a budget bike is rare"

As the resident noob in this topic what is considered non budget and "worth" upgrading. Besides building your own.

Doing some mild research at my LBS on this topic I found that even the higher end bikes ($3k+) use lower end hubs even tho they are carbon,fs, top of the drive trains,carbon wheels etc.

By guess is at a certain knowledge and skill point it will almost always be better to build your own just like a custom computer you get exactly what you want... I hope to get there some day 

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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Jonilink said:


> "Putting a fancy hub on a budget bike is rare"
> 
> As the resident noob in this topic what is considered non budget and "worth" upgrading. Besides building your own.
> 
> ...


If a hub works, then it works! That's the whole deal for most folk. So you see a lot of shimano/joytech/formula hubs at the low end, and novatec/dt370/etc on midrange bikes. The manufacturer is saving money where they hope it won't make a difference to you.

Stuff like Bitex/hope/dt350 hubs will work for almost anyone, and they're light, quick engaging, and will definitely last as long as a wheelset will. Cost a little more, but they're nice for aftermarket wheels and not too expensive.

Some people, for various reasons, tend to break hubs. Others need THE BEST. Some folk like to buy a premium hub, then build it up again and again as they wear out rims and frames. King/hadley/Onyx/etc exist for these folk.

That's very broad, but you get the idea.



Jonilink said:


> How accurate is this? Seems like other feel the same way


I'm 100% on board with it.

Subjectively, slow engagement will be more noticeable if
-you're out of shape so you're always in your lowest gears (gearing multiplies the effect)
-you tend to start pedaling in a too-low gear (you've coasted through a flat or downhill and haven't upshifted)
-you tend to mistime your pedals through rocks, so you have to ratchet a lot (some is necessary, of course)
-you tend to slam on the pedals, rather than rolling your feet up to speed (i hope that makes sense?)

So to some degree beginners suffer from slow engagement more than experienced riders. IMO.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> As the resident noob in this topic what is considered non budget and "worth" upgrading. Besides building your own.


That's not an easy question to answer.

I rode for YEARS on whatever hubs my bike had. The first real wheel upgrade I purchased was a midpriced Mavic wheelset for about $450. It was better than what I had been riding, but the difference was small. Mostly just lighter and tubeless (back when UST tubeless tech was the hotness). I rode those wheels for awhile. When building up my next bike (13yrs after buying my first bike, mind you), I made the jump to a handbuilt wheelset with Hope Pro II hubs and I liked the improved engagement. Overall wheel quality was very good. I have ridden those wheels hard.

I wanted a different sort of bike and so when I added a new one this spring, I decided I wanted Industry Nine hubs. In large part because their factory is less than 10mi from my house. They released their Hydra hubs right when I was ready to buy, so that's what I wound up with in large part because of availability of the specific options I wanted. But I was also intrigued by the claims of improved durability over their older Torch hubs. I also used them as the base for my first wheel build. I took a class locally to learn how. Honestly the increased engagement of the Hydra hubs compared to the Hopes on my other bike is barely perceptible while riding. But I9 didn't increase engagement just to increase engagement. There was a different reason for it, and it was about accomplishing their goals for bearing durability. That's going to be one of those things that's not going to be immediately apparent. It might take years for it to be apparent, honestly.

Both Hope and Industry Nine make hubs that can theoretically work on your bike with the right hub shell width and the right end caps. While it's possible to find aggressive sales on built wheels (especially with older parts and machine built stuff), my handbuilt wheelsets EACH cost just a hair over $1,000. The Hope hubs were less expensive, but I matched them with carbon rims. I put aluminum rims on my Industry Nine hubs, in part to keep costs under control. Still, with the MSRP on your bike at $800, it'd be hard for me to stomach putting a $1,000 wheelset on it. I'd probably be willing to spend in the $300-$500 range, but given the limited availability of midpriced 9x141 compatible hubs, your options for wheelsets in that price range will be limited.

It's also worth keeping in mind that since your bike's hubs have the centerlock rotor interface, you'll want to keep with that interface if you want to control costs (use the same brake rotors you've got now). If you buy something with a 6 bolt rotor interface, you'll need a new rotor for each hub you buy. More money.

With as much of a PITA this is, your options are either to scour classified ads for a used 27.5+ wheelset with boost spacing and hubs that have swappable endcaps so you can fit the rear wheel in your frame and centerlock rotor interface, throw down bigger money to buy what you need new and just hunt for sales, or to just give up on upgrading wheels right now.

And yes, a lot of pretty expensive bikes still come with pretty inexpensive hubs. This is one of those spots that manufacturers cut costs on built bikes because most customers either don't care about the wheels or they're fine with buying whatever wheelset they want as an aftermarket upgrade. I've come to the point where I'd rather just buy a frame and choose all the parts myself to avoid the waste of having to upgrade and sell off the OEM stuff I don't want.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Thanks for the long post it sounds just like building a custom computer there is a sweet spot on price and performance. Based on usage I'm trying to find that spot on my bike. 

I don't feel like 3-500 per wheel is too bad IF it was worth it. The disminishing returns start to set in and I would need to make another jump in price to notice/justify the difference. The rear wheel I have right now is lighter than my front wheel to me that enough of a difference to want a new front wheel ( and also because they don't match)

My hub I can feel needs an upgrade also after looking at the poe chart from earlier I can't justify spending absurd amounts of money on a new hub. Just like I'm OK with a 3-500 dollar graphics card not a $1k+


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

At any rate this topic went in a wierd direction. I'll post when I find a solution. Which at this point seems that I will need my rear wheel rebuilt.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

So to recap if I want to upgrade the rear hub on my bike I need to find a 12x148 boost hub 32h that has end cap adapters that allow the use of a QR allowing it to fit my 9x141 configuration?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Yes. Also, Centerlock or 6-bolt rotor? 6-bolts are more common and if you need to replace a CL rotor with a 6b-er to find a hub that will work, rotors are pretty cheap.

If anyone has the exact hub you need, I think it would be Hope or DT Swiss.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

mack_turtle said:


> Yes. Also, Centerlock or 6-bolt rotor? 6-bolts are more common and if you need to replace a CL rotor with a 6b-er to find a hub that will work, rotors are pretty cheap.
> 
> If anyone has the exact hub you need, I think it would be Hope or DT Swiss.


First of all I want to say thanks to all that have helped me a few days ago I would have no idea what to look for.

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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Speaking of rotors what is better? Center lock or 6 bolt?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> So to recap if I want to upgrade the rear hub on my bike I need to find a 12x148 boost hub 32h that has end cap adapters that allow the use of a QR allowing it to fit my 9x141 configuration?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's one option. The other is to find a hub that can be bought as a 9x141 hub as-is. Harder to find, and generally cheaper, but also an option. For a true upgrade, what you describe is probably what you'll have to get.



mack_turtle said:


> Yes. Also, Centerlock or 6-bolt rotor? 6-bolts are more common and if you need to replace a CL rotor with a 6b-er to find a hub that will work, rotors are pretty cheap.
> 
> If anyone has the exact hub you need, I think it would be Hope or DT Swiss.


The Shimano Fh-mt200b that he mentioned he has now in the first post appears to have a centerlock interface. I really don't care what interface the rotor itself comes in, but I REALLY like having the centerlock interface on the hub. My hardtail right now has centerlock hubs and 6 bolt rotors. I'm using Ashima adapters, and the adapters make it so much easier to install the rotors (as compared to a native 6-bolt to 6-bolt).

If you have centerlock hubs, you can use any rotor interface. But if you have 6 bolt hubs, there's no adapter that allows you to use centerlock rotors. And there are a few rotors (some of the Shimano ones) that are only available in the centerlock interface.

But yeah, DT or Hope are probably going to be the best options. Especially on the used market. DT even moreso. LOTS of those hubs out there (along with some companies who license DT tech like Specialized Roval).


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> Speaking of rotors what is better? Center lock or 6 bolt?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This one is going to be colored by lots of opinion.

I have hubs with both. No question, 6 bolt is a "simpler" to manufacture system for both the hub and the rotor. Especially the rotor. But for ease of installation/removal (granted, not something that's frequently done), it's a lot easier to just tighten/loosen a single threaded fastener (the lockring on centerlock) with a larger tool than it is to do 6 with a smaller tool (6 bolt). Plus, if you have centerlock hubs, you can get adapters to make the installation of 6 bolt rotors just as easy. But if you have 6 bolt hubs, you cannot install centerlock rotors. Period.

So my vote if you have an option is for centerlock hubs, and beyond that it doesn't matter what interface the rotors are.

Here is an example of a 6 bolt Hayes rotor installed onto a Centerlock hub with an adapter carrier. The adapter has pins that the rotor just slots onto, a washer, and then a lockring to hold it all together.


0903190954 by Nate, on Flickr


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Personal preference, I doubt anyone can make a convincing case that one is better. 6b is much, much more common. CL is Shimano-specific and a great design, but if you need to find a rotor or replace a wheel in a pinch, you'll have a harder time finding the replacement. There are also adapters that allow you to put a 6b rotor on a CL hub. Only a few companies besides Shimano make CL hubs.

The new Shimano XT and XTR hubs actually look pretty nice and are cheaper than many. I don't know if they do 141qr boost though.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mack_turtle said:


> Personal preference, I doubt anyone can make a convincing case that one is better. 6b is much, much more common. CL is Shimano-specific and a great design, but if you need to find a rotor or replace a wheel in a pinch, you'll have a harder time finding the replacement. There are also adapters that allow you to put a 6b rotor on a CL hub. Only a few companies besides Shimano make CL hubs.
> 
> The new Shimano XT and XTR hubs actually look pretty nice and are cheaper than many. I don't know if they do 141qr boost though.


Yes, 6 bolt is probably the more common, esp on the used market, but it's slowly getting more common. When I bought my Hope hubs, for example, centerlock wasn't an option. Hope offers it as an option now.

Centerlock, actually, is more of a collaboration between Shimano and DT Swiss. The two companies started offering it at about the same time and everybody else started offering it at different times.

I was looking at the newer Shimano hubs (better engagement, different mechanism than the old ones) and it appears that the new XTR, XT, and SLX hubs are ONLY available in thru axles (Shimano has never used a swappable end cap type hub so converting is not so easy) in 12x142, 12x148, and 12x157 (XT and SLX only), and also probably most importantly here only with 12spd micro spline freehub interface. So they won't be an option at all for more than one reason.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

I really like the ashima adapter idea plus nit seems like they come in different colors for added bling

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> I really like the ashima adapter idea plus nit seems like they come in different colors for added bling
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


there are several other adapters that work similarly. DT Swiss, in particular. I just happen to use the Ashima ones because they cost me less money for the same basic functionality at the time.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Proof that Hope has what you're looking for.




Buy a Hope boost 148x12 hub and the end caps he lists and you should be good. Might need a 6b rotor. Keep the 148x12 endcaps in case you get a new bike or frame so you can reuse that wheel.

On that note, I hope this 141 thing dies. I don't see the point. It allows boost drivetrain spacing for wider tires and all that, but why not just go 148x12?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mack_turtle said:


> Proof that Hope has what you're looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope it dies, too, but I don't think that's remotely likely at this point. It honestly can't be impossible for one of the OEM hub manufacturers to produce a $15 - $30 thru axle hub.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

I posted that video earlier 

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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Just called bikehubparts.com and he said they don't have anything in their inventory or adapters that will fit a 9x141 he actually had never heard of it 

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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Harold said:


> I hope it dies, too, but I don't think that's remotely likely at this point. It honestly can't be impossible for one of the OEM hub manufacturers to produce a $15 - $30 thru axle hub.


It can't be that difficult. With a thru axle, you don't even have to supply a skewer. If Hope can do it with endcaps, anyone can. I think the industry is somehow saving money on the cost of machining dropouts or something. Maybe they are just using the old 135x10 dropouts and welding them on a boost frame. Either way, pull the bandaid off quickly and be done with it, bike industry.

Digging a little deeper, it seems like quite a few hubs have this option.

https://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/boost-141-rear-hubs-141mm-x-9mm-qr-boost-1095401.html

https://forums.mtbr.com/26-27-5-29-plus-bikes/141x9mm-qr-boost-hub-conversation-1061813.html

I am surprised to hear that BikeHubStore has their heads up their asses on this one. All they do is hubs, so you'd think they'd be on top of it.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

mack_turtle said:


> I think the industry is somehow saving money on the cost of machining dropouts or something. Maybe they are just using the old 135x10 dropouts and welding them on a boost frame. Either way, pull the bandaid off quickly and be done with it, bike industry.


Cheapest rear through axle is twice the cost of the cheapest QR on Q. Add to that that through-axle dropouts are ~30% more expensive (at least for framebuilders, dunno for OE) and are fussier to fit... they're a tough sell. A through-axle is useless on a hardtail anyway; if anything they just transfer more load into the low-budget hub.

Bikes at this price-point are playing a game of inches. 141mm makes a lot of sense for the manufacturer.

Here's a pretty good podcast on the topic. They interview Felt's former general manager.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

All my trails are leading me to the Hope Pro 4 hub. And buying the adapter kit so I can run 9x141 It seems to be possible to buy one for about 160-170ish new on eBay.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Jonilink said:


> All my trails are leading me to the Hope Pro 4 hub. And buying the adapter kit so I can run 9x141 It seems to be possible to buy one for about 160-170ish new on eBay.


Pro4 is a very good hub, probably everyone's 'first gucci' hub.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Does the hope4 have the ability to upgrade to a higher poe? Or is that only on the DS Swiss 350


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

scottzg said:


> Here's a pretty good podcast on the topic. They interview Felt's former general manager.


I can't say that I hold anyone who's spent much time at Felt with much esteem, after working at a shop that sold Felt and seeing how that shop was treated by that company. Felt dealt that shop a really terrible hand, and it was far worse than any other shop/mfr relationship I observed when working at a handful of shops.

I do agree that the whole qr141 thing comes almost entirely from a cost perspective. I'm just not sure it HAS to. I'm also not sure that thru axle is worthless for a hardtail, either. Minimal improvements in ride performance for the most part (unless you're getting into bikes meant to be ridden harder than your typical entry level hardtail), but you can also make the point that a qr in the back doesn't really give you much true benefit, either. True about load transfer, though.

Midrange hub/wheelset manufacturers need to get on board, though. And more companies need to specifically call out 9x141 compatibility when it's possible (I'm talking to you, endcap hub companies who make stuff that's compatible but don't mention it anywhere on your websites) so that people doing searches can actually find stuff that'll work.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> Does the hope4 have the ability to upgrade to a higher poe?


No. It is what it is. There are very few hubs that allow you to change engagement. DT Swiss star ratchet hubs (and others like Specialized Roval that use the same internals) cover most (but not all) of the ones that do.

I have the older Pro II EVO hubs and don't find myself wishing for more engagement points on them (and the older Pro II EVO had fewer poe than the Pro 4 hubs).


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Seem to be a good price

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> Seem to be a good price


It's not a good price if it doesn't fit, and that one won't work. You need the 12x148 boost version PLUS qr endcaps if you can't get it specifically in 9x141.

https://www.hopetech.com/products/hubs/mountain-bike/pro-4-boost-148mm-rear-hub/#tech

Note that the NON-boost version (the one you're looking at) says that adapters are available to make the hub work for 12x148. This one will NOT work for your case. This is just a 135/142mm hub shell with spacers added to make it fit a boost frame. It doesn't work the same as what you need/are trying to do.

https://www.hopetech.com/products/hubs/mountain-bike/pro-4-rear-hub/#tech


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Harold said:


> It's not a good price if it doesn't fit, and that one won't work. You need the 12x148 boost version PLUS qr endcaps if you can't get it specifically in 9x141.
> 
> https://www.hopetech.com/products/hubs/mountain-bike/pro-4-boost-148mm-rear-hub/#tech
> 
> ...


I see what I did let me try again

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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

This one should work! Lol

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Make sure you buy qr endcaps. And also check your rotor compatibility. If it's centerlock, you need a 6 bolt one.

At that point, you'll be able to hand the stuff over to your shop for the build where you can expect to buy the spokes and pay for the build labor, which I think you mentioned you had been quoted already.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Yeah, so long as it's the Boost-specific one and not a non-boost hub with spacers/adapters to make it fit like a boost hub. The spoke flanges and rotor spacing on a boost hub should be wider.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mack_turtle said:


> Yeah, so long as it's the Boost-specific one and not a non-boost hub with spacers/adapters to make it fit like a boost hub. The spoke flanges and rotor spacing on a boost hub should be wider.


should definitely verify that. with ebay listings, you can be misled due to insufficient or incorrect info. When I was looking (retailers other than ebay), I was seeing non-boost hope hubs at clearance prices, but not the boost ones.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Harold said:


> should definitely verify that. with ebay listings, you can be misled due to insufficient or incorrect info. When I was looking (retailers other than ebay), I was seeing non-boost hope hubs at clearance prices, but not the boost ones.


I'm having more trouble finding that QR adapter kit even when I search by the part number in getting strange results 

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> I'm having more trouble finding that QR adapter kit even when I search by the part number in getting strange results
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The thing with Hope is that they're made in the UK and most dealers in the US that sell Hope stuff can only acquire a small subset of Hope's product catalog that they obtain through a distributor. So small parts can be a PITA sometimes.

The end caps should be available, but it may be easier to get them from an LBS who can search through distributor product catalogs that aren't really available online to the general public.

I was able to find what I'm pretty sure are the right ones here.



> Pro 2 Evo/Pro 4 Rear 10 x 135mm Quick Release
> Our Item #7209-217637
> Mfg #:HUB238
> UPC:551680378755
> ...


https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=7209

Remember, the qr width of a given hub is 7mm narrower than its thru axle width. So if the width is given as 10x135mm for qr endcaps (10mm is the actual diameter of the rear axle, not 9mm as Norco says - yes, it's confusing), then the dimension if you use thru axle endcaps is 142mm. If you have the same model hub that's built as a 12x148mm hub with thru axle endcaps, with the wider flanges, then putting the very same qr endcaps on it will reduce the width to 141mm. The hub shell (the disc mount and flanges) is actually the same width. It's just stated differently because of how qr dropouts are shaped differently from thru axle dropouts.

Stated more succinctly, the same qr endcaps will change a 12x142mm hub to 135 qr hub AND a 12x148mm hub to a 141 qr hub.

Hope just makes things a touch confusing because they sell thru axle endcaps (and a brake rotor spacer) for narrower 135/142 hubs to make them fit into a wider 148mm frame.

SO, the most important thing (because it's potentially the most expensive mistake you can make in this whole process) is to make sure you're getting the boost hub shell with regular qr adapters, and not the non-boost hub shell with the boost adapter kit.

This chart from Hope shows how the flange offsets differ between the two, which also affects spoke length.

https://www.hopetech.com/_repository/1/documents/2016UPDATEDHOPEHUBSSPOKEOFFSETANDPCD_v2.pdf


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Seems my search has come to an end 

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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

I do have another question what is the difference between a floating vs no floating rotor?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jonilink said:


> I do have another question what is the difference between a floating vs no floating rotor?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/fixed-vs-floating-rotors-523512.html#post5747171


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> Seems my search has come to an end
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


looks about right. But, you might want to stop shopping on ebay for everything. You're going to get burned there eventually.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

good advice this is my first time tho and I'll admit the lower prices are attractive 

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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

I've owned a few wheel sets with Pro 4 hubs. The sound is just flat out amazing and the hubs are great. I definitely agree with not shopping on eBay. Just buy from Jenson USA. They always have the hubs on sale and they carry everything you need for the hubs too.

Here's my favorite Hope Pro 4 video:


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> good advice this is my first time tho and I'll admit the lower prices are attractive
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The problem with ebay is that good sellers/products are mixed up with bad sellers/products. Sometimes the bad ones aren't clear until you get the item in hand. ebay prohibits counterfeit products, but lots of counterfeits show up on there. The prices of what you are looking to buy are good, but not quite in the too-good-to-be-true range. Plus the sellers appear to specialize in bike stuff.

But some manufacturers won't warrantee products sold this way. Plus if you have a warranty problem with something you buy on ebay, this is another way you'll find out who the bad sellers are. Bad sellers might refuse to deal with you on warranty issues. So everything might go fine with the purchase and shipping and the product might be legit, but when you need service, you're SOL.

I've worked outdoor retail enough that I've seen these issues. I worked at Eastern Mountain Sports for awhile, and we had a customer with a North Face jacket (bought on ebay) that blew out a seam. Not a warranty issue, but the customer wanted a repair. Sent the jacket to TNF, and TNF sent it back saying it wasn't theirs. At the store, we couldn't tell so easily. But the mfr could tell immediately because of how it was constructed.

When it comes to most bike parts, I stick with well known retailers. Sometimes my local shop. Sometimes online retailers. Sometimes used. Sometimes buying direct from the manufacturer. All my bikes are mixes of parts sourced this way. Sometimes it means I pay full MSRP, and yeah, that's a bit more expensive. But, I've built a relationship with my local shop and they help me out sometimes. Like recently they expedited a brake bleed for my wife's bike.

I will only look on ebay in limited cases. First off, if I'm particularly shopping for used stuff. It's not the only possible source for used, but it might be one that I check. It's probably the best if you're looking for old, vintage stuff. I bought an old Silca pump not too long ago from there, and I cleaned it up to put it back into service. The other reason I might look there would be if I was searching for something that's simply difficult to find ANYWHERE. That scenario often comes up when I'm looking for weird electronics connectors or parts.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Have we considered a used wheelset as an option? OP also mentioned front wheel mismatch as a concern.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Battery said:


> I've owned a few wheel sets with Pro 4 hubs. The sound is just flat out amazing and the hubs are great. I definitely agree with not shopping on eBay. Just buy from Jenson USA. They always have the hubs on sale and they carry everything you need for the hubs too.
> 
> Here's my favorite Hope Pro 4 video:


Lol JUST watched that video last night the sound of those hubs  and the riders skill is god tier

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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

phlegm said:


> Have we considered a used wheelset as an option? OP also mentioned front wheel mismatch as a concern.


Once I get the rear wheel rebuild it will be 6b again that will ease my ocd for now 

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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Jonilink said:


> Lol JUST watched that video last night the sound of those hubs  and the riders skill is god tier
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And I just so happens they have 20% ofg one item.....Jenson it is then..but for some reason I can't find the 9x141 adapter on their site


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

That's happened to me many times. Buy part of something online and forced to buy the rest of it someplace else. Call Jenson and ask if they can get it for you. It might be too small and obscure for them to list on their catalog. (Although they have some obscure stuff on there already!)


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

mack_turtle said:


> That's happened to me many times. Buy part of something online and forced to buy the rest of it someplace else. Call Jenson and ask if they can get it for you. It might be too small and obscure for them to list on their catalog. (Although they have some obscure stuff on there already!)


I've been in hold for over an hour...

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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Finally got through and the rep said they in fact do not carry the end caps for 9x141 just they do have everything else tho 

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> Finally got through and the rep said they in fact do not carry the end caps for 9x141 just they do have everything else tho
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


eh, buy the endcaps wherever. They're cheap enough to begin with and don't vary in price nearly as much, so "savings" doesn't really matter. hell, the universal cycles link I posted earlier had them a few bux cheaper than you found them on ebay. so you'll probably have to pay a few bucks in shipping no matter where you buy them. maybe your lbs won't charge shipping (maybe they will...I've found that policy can vary a lot).


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Small update I finally got my Hope hub I the mail all I can say is wow this thing is nice 









Just waiting on the end caps and I'll be good to go

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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Jonilink said:


> Small update I finally got my Hope hub I the mail all I can say is wow this thing is nice


Do you like to sit on your couch and just ratchet that thing all day? I would do it!


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Lol I'm trying not to mess with it too much. Now I see the difference tho. When compared to the other cheap hubs I've dealt with this is completely different.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Jonilink said:


> Lol I'm trying not to mess with it too much. Now I see the difference tho. When compared to the other cheap hubs I've dealt with this is completely different.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol you can mess with it. Those hubs were designed to spin at variable rpms for many years. You will love the sound on your bike. When I rode on Pro 4 hubs, I didn't have to announce myself to hikers or other bikers. The hubs were loud enough for them to hear me.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Battery said:


> Lol you can mess with it. Those hubs were designed to spin at variable rpms for many years. You will love the sound on your bike. When I rode on Pro 4 hubs, I didn't have to announce myself to hikers or other bikers. The hubs were loud enough for them to hear me.


Lol I like that "feature" can't wait to get these built

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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Now that I have my new hub I'm starting to think why don't I upgrade the front wheel too? After 2 days of research I really want a wider rim up front but I'm still stuck on one question..
I have









This fork I have the spec sheet open and it doesn't tell me the max rim width that I can use. 
Right now it has 27.5x2.8 tire the stock rim is 30mm. 15x110 boost hub










From the yellow line I marked on the picture is this where I would measure? It's about 4.25" or 108mm

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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

lol you're lucky nobody died of upgradeitis.


The front hub doesn't matter, aside from aesthetically.

The correct rim width is determined by the tires you are using. Plus tires are lame, but if you're gonna stick with 2.8s then a 35 internal width makes sense. I wouldn't bother if there wasn't something specific you were trying to achieve.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

35mm is the size I'm aiming for but how do I know they will fit?

Also how are plus tires "lame"? This is an honest question. The tires I have on this bike are still the originals so when I finally upgrade I'll be looking for the best options.

From what I'm reading you want your front tire wider than your rear. Thats my goal
Btw this is the current rear wheel









Wtb st light i29

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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Jonilink said:


> 35mm is the size I'm aiming for but how do I know they will fit?
> 
> Also how are plus tires "lame"? This is an honest question. The tires I have on this bike are still the originals so when I finally upgrade I'll be looking for the best options.
> 
> ...


Why do you want to run different tire sizes? That's the question to ask yourself. Not everyone runs a wider front tire on their bike. You probably won't see a big difference in how the bike rides with a 2.8" tire in the front and a 2.6" in the rear. You can probably save yourself some cash and just use the tires and rims you have now. I wouldn't worry about new tires until those tires you have now are worn down.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Right, I don't want new tires but I do want new rims. 


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> 35mm is the size I'm aiming for but how do I know they will fit?
> 
> Also how are plus tires "lame"?


The only way to know is to measure measure measure, and measure again. 35mm rims do make sense (both front and rear, honestly) for 2.8" tires. That said, 30mm rims will be a touch bit lighter. You can probably find someone online who has used your given tires on a few rim sizes and measured them for you, so you can compare your setup to those others. It'll probably involve lots of googling. But 5mm of rim width on the same tires won't increase the width a TON and it looks like you've probably got space for it.

The lameness (or not) of plus tires is one of those personal preference issues. If you like it, then don't worry about what others say. They work well for certain riding styles and less well for others.

The whole tire size thing (especially whether to go wider up front or not) is another thing with no clear answer. Sometimes there are some specific reasons to have a slightly narrower tire in the back (a long time ago, the major one was frame clearance being tighter than fork clearance), but it's especially uncommon to vary rim width front/rear. I've run both the same width tires front/rear as well as wider front/narrower rear over the years. The difference is so small in most cases that I just run the same width front/rear now and usually different tread and rubber compounds front/rear. That seems to make a bigger difference. Tackier rubber up front for grip, and firmer, longer-wearing rubber in the rear. Tread pattern optimized for the terrain as best as I can match them.

The nice thing about better quality hubs is that rebuilding the wheels becomes a more feasible idea. Chances are, you'll trash a few rims in your day so you'll have plenty of opportunities to change things. Front hubs are significantly less expensive than the rear so it might not be a terrible idea to buy the matching front and just hold onto it for awhile. Other options include not bothering with the front right now at all, or saying to hell with it and throwing down on a whole wheelset.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Actually it does make more sense to buy different tires than rim sizes (when they wear out of course) I do see that all the time where I ride. 






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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

This idea has slowly been growing in my because of the "to hell with it" mind set. and of course this shiny new hub and brake rotor sitting on my computer desk. 

Also after a few days of research I've found that I don't need to spend over 1000k to upgrade one wheeI and I can even go carbon for very low prices.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> Actually it does make more sense to buy different tires than rim sizes (when they wear out of course) I do see that all the time where I ride.


I mean, it sorta does, sometimes. But it's one of those things that while it exists and some bikes come from the manufacturer set up that way, it doesn't always make that big of a difference. Probably the biggest advantage of a narrower rear tire is that it's lighter/faster and traction isn't quite as critical back there. But like I said, I'm more prone to run different tread patterns and rubber durometers to achieve most of those benefits while also retaining the benefits of larger volume tires in the back.

Rode with a friend today who has a fairly new Yeti. 2.5F and 2.3R. Probably the ONLY reason it's not 2.5 on both ends is because a 2.5 won't fit in the back. I wouldn't spend that much money on a bike that gave me that much of a limitation in tire size. So really, I'm not going to run different tire widths unless there's a major reason for it. I won't touch the whole mullet bike different wheel diameter thing, either.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Jonilink said:


> Actually it does make more sense to buy different tires than rim sizes (when they wear out of course) I do see that all the time where I ride.


changing wheel parts is meaningless compared to how tire choice can alter the ride.

I've been discouraging your shopping spree all along, but if you wanna throw down some $$$......... spend it on giving yourself a proper education on how tire choice matters. I endorse it. It takes many rides at a variety of tire pressures to develop an understanding of tires... so you still won't get to flush money as quickly as you'd prefer. Extra confounding because (beginner's corner post) as you progress you'll put different loads on tires and have different demands. A given tire/psi that works great when you suck becomes utter garbage as you progress.

If you're gonna buy a bunch of wheels... owning two sets where you can mount of two sets of tires is worthwhile. All wheels are basically the same, provided they're not garbage and you're not racing as a pro.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

And I appreciate the advice. I've been through a few bike shops that will be "cool" with you for awhile but if you ask too many questions they are suddenly "too busy" or the elitism starts to rear its ugly head. I understand the learning process is slow but I know the feeling of haveing too little or to much pressure. It just doesn't "feel" right. I went through a learning curve with my front fork and getting that dialed in, air pressure etc. 

This money I'm spending would have been used for a computer upgrade. But I figure I'd use it on something that gets my ass out of the house, Imo that was a better choice. It has also had the side effect of peeking my daughters interest in riding trails with me at only 6 she likes the "adventure" aspect.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> And I appreciate the advice. I've been through a few bike shops that will be "cool" with you for awhile but if you ask too many questions they are suddenly "too busy" or the elitism starts to rear its ugly head.


It's usually not elitism, but rather it's the fact that money talks. I've been that guy in the shop with a customer who comes in every week for months without spending a dime, but he wants to chat parts or he wants to test ride bikes for hours. Customer is taking my time away from customers who are paying my paycheck by buying things. It's a fine line to walk, though. I always tended to be a bit more willing to chat and would have to be reminded by the owner/manager that I'm wasting the shop's money by spending too much time talking to someone who isn't putting money in the register to cover my paycheck. Some shop people probably take it a little too far on their time-waster radar, but it's still not elitism. They're just sniffing out the customer who asks lots of questions without buying anything a lot sooner.

I don't do that work anymore, and now I'm the customer in that situation, so I get it. I live in a mtb tourism destination area, too. Some of the really popular shops around here get a TON of tire-kicker type customers and they don't seek you out to make sure you don't have questions. They're not going to waste a ton of time doing that when they've got service work they can crank out, beer to sell (lots of shops around here sell beer, or smoothies, or even food), or rental bikes to set up. Definitely not elitism there, either.

You're going to have to do your own learning on your own time/dime in some respects. Some shops offer classes during slower times of year. There are also places you can pay to take classes year round. This place is super close to me (just over the mtn) and I paid to learn wheelbuilding there early this spring and built my first wheelset. She gets people from all over the world (though mostly from North America) who come to take classes.

APPALACHIAN BICYCLE INSTITUTE

Some things you can learn by reading tons of content online. There's plenty of stuff to choose from there. Reviews, press releases, forums like this one, and so on.

And some things that just won't sink in until you experience it while riding. That means riding a lot (not just your own bike, but demoing/renting other bikes, too), riding lots of places, and using lots of different components. To that end, you're going to have to wear some stuff out and break some things in the process, too. There are lessons you learn from doing that that you're not going to learn from using those parts on a demo bike once.

I probably wouldn't have spent this money on this particular bike in your situation. But you're at a point where you might as well just throw down on a whole wheelset build. Don't bother with carbon right now. Stay away. It just isn't worth it for what you're doing. Just get the front hub, and find a decent wheel builder to build the wheels for you with decent 35mm alu rims and double butted spokes. Keep your old wheels. These new ones would be a really solid workhorse set of wheels that you can ride hard for a long time. Like Scottg said, you can put different tires on each wheelset for different types of rides/trails. You can keep your new, quality wheels for a different boost bike later on (maybe you buy a 29er next and you can have both a 27.5+ wheelset and a 29er wheelset for even more variety). You'd have some options.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

1+ on Appalachian Bike Institute. I did that a few years ago and had a blast. It could be fun to take the wheelbuilding class and bring your own wheel parts in.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mack_turtle said:


> 1+ on Appalachian Bike Institute. I did that a few years ago and had a blast. It could be fun to take the wheelbuilding class and bring your own wheel parts in.


That's what I did. Though I was such a SLOOOOOOWWWW wheel builder that I had to go back to her shop a couple times during the week after the class (working around her class schedule that week) to finish my wheels. Thankfully her shop is pretty close to my house and I had a flexible schedule to work around hers.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

My choice of words may not have been the best "elitism" in the way I'm describing it goes a little something like this:
Customer comes in with an older/non top spec bike wants some upgrades better tires etc. The guys working on the bike start to say "well I wouldn't put any money in that thing" "time for a new bike" or "I spent $xxx on X and it's 100x better than what you have/want" Essentially you absolutely must have top spec "second mortgage mode parts" or the bike is a"Walmart special". When the bike is VERY much capable of handling the same areas 10k bike can. I feel rider skill is definitely more of a factor.

I can sniff out this mind set pretty easily now having dealt with alot of different types of bike shops. I am very aware of the time people waste just chatting in bike shops.I use to work at a computer repair shop and some people would just come in to "hangout" maybe dick around on the computers but never buy anything. So I make a conscience effort to get to the point and if I want to buy some thing buy it without wasting too much of their time.

I've settle with: 
New rims new hubs front and back. That will be plenty for this bike I feel like that is good enough with my current knowledge and skill set. I floated the idea of carbon rims around for awhile but couldn't justify the price. I know alot of people have success with chicee carbon but it sets off toany red flags for me to pull the trigger.

I like the idea of classes I'll check it out!


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Jonilink said:


> I've settle with:
> New rims new hubs front and back. That will be plenty for this bike I feel like that is good enough with my current knowledge and skill set. I floated the idea of carbon rims around for awhile but couldn't justify the price. I know alot of people have success with chicee carbon but it sets off toany red flags for me to pull the trigger.
> 
> I like the idea of classes I'll check it out!


You're buying new spokes too, fyi.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> My choice of words may not have been the best "elitism" in the way I'm describing it goes a little something like this:
> Customer comes in with an older/non top spec bike wants some upgrades better tires etc. The guys working on the bike start to say "well I wouldn't put any money in that thing" "time for a new bike" or "I spent $xxx on X and it's 100x better than what you have/want" Essentially you absolutely must have top spec "second mortgage mode parts" or the bike is a"Walmart special". When the bike is VERY much capable of handling the same areas 10k bike can. I feel rider skill is definitely more of a factor.


As you learn more about bikes, you're going to see that this isn't elitism, either.

It comes down to educating the customer about efficiency of the dollar. What you've done/doing is honestly pretty inefficient spending for the bike you have. It's part of the reason why bikes on the sales floor have pretty low end wheels until you start dropping many thousands of dollars on a bike. Sure, better wheels are better, but in the big picture, there are other things that are going to make a bigger difference in overall performance for a marginally smaller extra cost. And beyond that point, there DOES come a point where you "outspend" your frame. What that point is, is pretty fuzzy, but it is there. It's different for every bike, too.

The components on the market right now aren't doing you any favors with the wheel situation, it's true. You came in here asking about a much smaller upgrade that would have made a lot more sense if it was mechanically possible. Unfortunately it wasn't and getting what you wanted required a bigger spend.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Yes forgot to add that in


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jonilink said:


> ...
> 
> I've settle with:
> New rims new hubs front and back. That will be plenty for this bike I feel like that is good enough with my current knowledge and skill set. I floated the idea of carbon rims around for awhile but couldn't justify the price. I know alot of people have success with chicee carbon but it sets off toany red flags for me to pull the trigger.
> ...





scottzg said:


> You're buying new spokes too, fyi.


...and this is why some of us had urged to check on used wheelsets.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Harold said:


> As you learn more about bikes, you're going to see that this isn't elitism, either.
> 
> It comes down to educating the customer about efficiency of the dollar. What you've done/doing is honestly pretty inefficient spending for the bike you have. It's part of the reason why bikes on the sales floor have pretty low end wheels until you start dropping many thousands of dollars on a bike. Sure, better wheels are better, but in the big picture, there are other things that are going to make a bigger difference in overall performance for a marginally smaller extra cost. And beyond that point, there DOES come a point where you "outspend" your frame. What that point is, is pretty fuzzy, but it is there. It's different for every bike, too.
> 
> The components on the market right now aren't doing you any favors with the wheel situation, it's true. You came in here asking about a much smaller upgrade that would have made a lot more sense if it was mechanically possible. Unfortunately it wasn't and getting what you wanted required a bigger spend.


Not all shops I deal with are like that If I can explain it in higher end computer terms. I wouldn't talk down about some one who doesn't spring for custom water cooling just because it's the best.

The geometry of my bike and the comfort level works for me although not a Santa Cruz or a yeti it gets me where I want to go.

As of this moment I can't see my self dropping thousands on a new mountain bike if anything I'd wait to wear out my tires and get something nicer. Then move onto a road bike.


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## Jetta2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

Congrats on your your new fancy hubs  I was somewhat in your shoes late last season. The oem rear hub (SRAM) was constantly needing adjusting. So I set out to replace. Down the rabbit hole I went (as did this thread). I opted to pickup a used wheelset even though there was nothing wrong with my front wheel. However, as you, since I was replacing the rear, I chose to get a wider rims so I could run a wider tires. I didn't have nearly the pain you had as my spacing and axle was more common. 

I hear what your saying about 'elitism' for lack of a better term. It is one of those things that is going to be manipulated by bike shop sales staff to make you think you need stuff you don't. On the other hand, they kind of have a point (which helps them make their case). It really doesn't make sense to put high end parts on a low end bike. Where does it end? 

Do what the hell you want. Your the one paying the bills. There's as many different philosophies as there are people. 'Hope' you enjoy your new wheel


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> Not all shops I deal with are like that If I can explain it in higher end computer terms. I wouldn't talk down about some one who doesn't spring for custom water cooling just because it's the best.


Your analogy doesn't really work. It's not about things being the absolute best or not and it's not about talking down about people.

More accurate would be like someone walking into the computer store with a bone stock budget minded laptop from a box store and asking to install the max amount of RAM because they want a computer to do high level 3D modeling work. I mean, sure, maxing out the RAM will make the computer better than it was, but the whole thing is limited by the chassis and even if it might be able to minimally do some entry level 3D modeling work, the computer is going to limit the effectiveness of what's possible to actually DO with it.

With bikes, you might be able to physically throw a lot of top level parts onto an inexpensive frame, but you waste the potential of a lot of those parts because the parts become capable of so much more than the frame. The chassis hold the whole thing back. Like I said before, the dividing line on that is fuzzy. But that's what those shop employees are getting at.

Spend enough time here and you'll see some extreme examples of it. In my time here, I've seen seen all manner of stupid ideas that were VERY CLEARLY on the other side of that dividing line from what's reasonable. People putting downhill forks on cheap hardtails and department store full suspension frames, among other manners of insanity. Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean you should.

And bike shop staff see things like that with some frequency. I did when I worked at them. People walk in with 25yr old midlevel mtb's that haven't left the garage or a barn in better than a decade ALL. THE. TIME. and just to get the bike rolling safely again requires an overhaul to lubricate EVERYTHING that moves and replacing pretty much every soft part because of dry rot. The dollar amount on something like that frequently exceeds the cost of a new bike that's actually better than that clapped out old thing that they brought in. Sure, it's possible for someone with the know-how and a willingness to use used parts to refresh a bike like that for a lot less. As a professional, though, what do you do? I have legit seen people cry in situations like this. And that's not even going hog-wild with upgrades. That's just giving service to a neglected bike that needs service, and often includes replacing the decaying parts with cheaper stuff than what's on it already.

When it comes to upgrades, it's looking at things like spending just as much money on wheels as the whole bike cost new. And you've still got all this OEM stuff on it. When if you'd taken all that money together, you could have purchased a nicer bike with nicer parts all over for the same. Or, if you'd simply set aside the money for your upgrades instead of upgrading everything, you'd be able to afford a nicer bike overall for an upgrade later, and still have a bike to ride now.

I'm at the point where I'll start saving for a new bike several months or even years before I actually intend to buy it. I'll continue to ride what I have, only replacing things as maintenance requires, but when I do sit down to buy that new bike, I'll start with the frame I want and put the exact parts on it that I want, budget-be-damned. Oh, I'll make plenty of concessions on cost. Buying used, shopping sales, using discounts I have access to, etc., and doing so allows me to pay full retail when I have to in order to get some part that I really want.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Jetta2010 said:


> Congrats on your your new fancy hubs  I was somewhat in your shoes late last season. The oem rear hub (SRAM) was constantly needing adjusting. So I set out to replace. Down the rabbit hole I went (as did this thread). I opted to pickup a used wheelset even though there was nothing wrong with my front wheel. However, as you, since I was replacing the rear, I chose to get a wider rims so I could run a wider tires. I didn't have nearly the pain you had as my spacing and axle was more common.
> 
> I hear what your saying about 'elitism' for lack of a better term. It is one of those things that is going to be manipulated by bike shop sales staff to make you think you need stuff you don't. On the other hand, they kind of have a point (which helps them make their case). It really doesn't make sense to put high end parts on a low end bike. Where does it end?
> 
> Do what the hell you want. Your the one paying the bills. There's as many different philosophies as there are people. 'Hope' you enjoy your new wheel


Starting out fresh in the mountain bike space I have had the constant delima of just waiting or finding a better deal I did that so much last year I just ended up riding my old 2006 Trek 3900 hardtail. Knowing that it wasn't worth putting anymore money into. My new bike however is, with in reason of course.

People showing me their higherend parts have helped me make decisions on what I want for my bike.

Here's a question tho let's say I get really stoopid and strip my current bike down to the frame and replace EVERYTHING with higher parts will it perform $5000 less than a bike with JUST A better frame? My money is on no. Again I would never do this lol but just like in computers there is definitely a diminishing returns wall you will hit.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> Here's a question tho let's say I get really stoopid and strip my current bike down to the frame and replace EVERYTHING with higher parts will it perform $5000 less than a bike with JUST A better frame? My money is on no. Again I would never do this lol but just like in computers there is definitely a diminishing returns wall you will hit.


A big part of why a bike performs the way it does is the frame geometry and how the materials and construction techniques affect ride quality. You can't put a number on it, but those things don't change when you throw better parts on an old frame, or when you put less expensive parts on a better frame. The frame has one of the largest effects on why a bike rides the way it does, so in a number of respects, you absolutely can and often do get a bike that rides better overall because it has a better frame but less expensive parts than a lower end frame and chichi parts.

Being as new to riding as you are, I'm sure you haven't really experienced this, but it is a real thing.

You'll sometimes hear questions WRT upgrading an older bike about how much you LOVE the frame. That's something you can't put a price on, right? If you absolutely, truly LOVE a frame, then it's going to be worth putting more money into nice parts for it than a frame that's just okay and works well enough. With you being as new as you are, you might feel like you love the frame you have because it's what you liked and bought, but you haven't been around bikes long enough to have ridden a bunch of bikes with very different frames with different materials and geometries, able to eliminate the differences of the parts and any subtle setup issues, and come away with loving or hating the frame alone. You certainly haven't had the opportunity yet to own a bike that was custom built for you and your riding style with geometry designed for you, and you alone.

At this point, you still don't know what you don't know and it limits your ability to put stuff like this into perspective. Every new rider gets to the point where they want to upgrade everything. I was there once, too. Big difference here is that you have more discretionary money available than most when they go through that phase, so you're just throwing money at it and you haven't REALLY had to face down the economics of the whole thing yet.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Harold said:


> Your analogy doesn't really work. It's not about things being the absolute best or not and it's not about talking down about people.
> 
> More accurate would be like someone walking into the computer store with a bone stock budget minded laptop from a box store and asking to install the max amount of RAM because they want a computer to do high level 3D modeling work. I mean, sure, maxing out the RAM will make the computer better than it was, but the whole thing is limited by the chassis and even if it might be able to minimally do some entry level 3D modeling work, the computer is going to limit the effectiveness of what's possible to actually DO with it.
> 
> ...


The computer analogy is spot on I like it except if the computer was a mid sized less that 6 month old desktop. A desktop has upgrade options a laptop for the most part doesn't ram and MAYBE the hard drive the desktop is much more likely to be worth it to upgrade in the long run. The motherboard is the "frame" in this analogy. Without a good mother board even with all new parts the computer will just have bottle necks. 
Last Gen pcie ports
Slower USB 
Lower speed Sata
Lacking a M.2 slot 
Etc

The upgrade path depends on the frame (mobo) so in my case after having two warranty repairs, the rear hub and front suspension I decided to take my decent motherboard (frame) and toss on some better quality parts. Based on my current experience level and budget.

The "you could have saved up and bought better only works Imo if you don't hit diminishing returns" take the hub for example I could have bought an almost $500 Chris king hub IF I had just saved up, that to me is a waste. What I was looking for is something that won't break in a month. 
I searched for quite a long time for a bike I felt like fit my riding style and budget. I knew I would eventually want to upgrade a few things. With what I have spent so far in upgrades and looking at other models of bikes that had similar components I couldn't justify it the price tag. At this point all the upgrades I have exceed the upgrades the higher end models have for less and they are higher quality parts.

After I gained some knowledge i found out that even the high end bikes have crap rear hubs that sucks for $3-4k I better get at least what I have now on my hardtail

The knowledge you have about building a bike from scratch I dont have I'm just now learning about Jenson USA. But if it were computers I could navigate Newegg in my sleep. This to me is a good start, buy a starter bike, bump up the specs a bit learn ALOT and my next build it from scratch.

Lol Your story about the old bike reminds me of a guy who wanted to use this "good" computer he had laying arount in his shed to manage his storage software... Let's just say it never entered the building.... To many roaches. I got that quite a bit too people get just as upset when you tell them that the hard drive they stored all their family pictures on cant just sit in a box out side for ever and magically start spinning and running properly after its been wet...


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

To me, this thread is actually exciting! Not to be a cornball but I love the sound of Hope Pro4 hubs and can't wait for you to give them a spin (literally). If I build another bike from a bare frame, I'm definitely going to get Pro4 hubs for my wheels. 

On my Transition Scout, I wanted to get a set of wheels with Pro 4 hubs but I decided to try out DT Swiss 350 for the first time. Those hubs are very quiet and strong. I've placed nearly 200 miles on them and I've had zero issues. Spokes are still tight and the rim is still true! I like DT Swiss but I do miss making a lot of noise on the trail with the Pro 4 rear hub.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Battery said:


> To me, this thread is actually exciting! Not to be a cornball but I love the sound of Hope Pro4 hubs and can't wait for you to give them a spin (literally). If I build another bike from a bare frame, I'm definitely going to get Pro4 hubs for my wheels.
> 
> On my Transition Scout, I wanted to get a set of wheels with Pro 4 hubs but I decided to try out DT Swiss 350 for the first time. Those hubs are very quiet and strong. I've placed nearly 200 miles on them and I've had zero issues. Spokes are still tight and the rim is still true! I like DT Swiss but I do miss making a lot of noise on the trail with the Pro 4 rear hub.


Great.... your making me regret not paying for faster shipping looks like my new rims won't arrive until the end of the week. 
But! To make time pass by... I'm just riding more.. Altho it's hard not to mess with them I did take off the end caps and they were VERY hard to take off I had to use a piece of rubber and channel locks to CAREFULLY pop them off. (No didn't gouge the end caps!) I added a bit of grease on the o-ring so I can take them off by hand next time. Actually my 9x141 conversion end caps should arrive tmrw


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Jonilink said:


> Great.... your making me regret not paying for faster shipping looks like my new rims won't arrive until the end of the week.
> But! To make time pass by... I'm just riding more.. Altho it's hard not to mess with them I did take off the end caps and they were VERY hard to take off I had to use a piece of rubber and channel locks to CAREFULLY pop them off. (No didn't gouge the end caps!) I added a bit of grease on the o-ring so I can take them off by hand next time. Actually my 9x141 conversion end caps should arrive tmrw


Awesome! I've also bought a set of Hope Pro 4 enduro wheels that came with Hope rims and the Pro 4 hubs. Unforunately those wheels were very outdated as Hope felt that enduro wheels should only have 24mm max inner width for tires. I just tossed those wheels on my old XC bike and had a blast! I'm sure by now that Hope updated the enduro wheel with wider rims. I bought those wheels from Chain Reaction Cycles when they were on clearance.

My next set of wheels were built by Fanatik Bike because they are just a couple hours away from me. When I bought wheels from them, I had the set at my doorstep within 3 days or less. For that build, I went with WTB Asym i29 rims. These rims were unique because they were asymmetrical and used a negative offset. I mated these rims to my Pro4 hubs. Damn, I want Pro 4 again lol!


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Did you ever have service the hubs?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jonilink said:


> ...This to me is a good start, buy a starter bike, bump up the specs a bit learn ALOT and my next build it from scratch.
> ...


There is value in learning to build a bike from parts, as there is from building a PC. It will cost more than from an OEM, but you'll learn, and you control the parts.

I am always on an eye out for used frames (and sometimes whole bikes) and am constantly swapping my best parts over, and selling the old. If you can fund the new bike from the old, it will help.

In your case you may be in a bit of a jam at least at first. If you buy a new frame, fork, etc. for a build, you'll likely want to carry over your newly-built wheelset - makes sense. However you're then on the hook to sell an entry level hardtail without wheels. Alternatively, if you sell your entire old bike to fund the new build, the wheel cost is likely sunk: someone shopping for a used entry level hardtail probably won't know what POE is.

In any event, if/when you decide on a new build, start with a quality frame, and go from there.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

phlegm said:


> There is value in learning to build a bike from parts, as there is from building a PC. It will cost more than from an OEM, but you'll learn, and you control the parts.
> 
> I am always on an eye out for used frames (and sometimes whole bikes) and am constantly swapping my best parts over, and selling the old. If you can fund the new bike from the old, it will help.
> 
> ...


I'm keeping my old wheel set so if i wanted to sell this hardtail I would put the old parts back on and leave the parts that wouldn't work for a new build and sell the complete bike

As I learned to upgrade my computer and build it myself, painting it, setting up the lighting and water cooling, spending over a week overclocking I got kinda... Attached I would never sell my computer and as of right now I'm pretty attached to this bike. Who knows how I'll feel in the future. Once I get my new wheels I want to travel to trails that I've hit before and see how it handles.

I know its blasphemous but I likethe idea of a road bike too. I have friends that strictly ride long distance and some who's bikes have neve touched pavement. If I'm convinced enough I would just keep this current hard tail and have 2 bikes.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> Did you ever have service the hubs?


Every moving part on a bike should get serviced. Including hubs. Hubs that allow you to access the pawl mechanism (like the Hopes you bought and most others) will benefit from pulling the freehub body off, cleaning, and lubricating the mechanism with some frequency. The type and amount of lube in the mechanism can pretty drastically change the sound, too.

I've also completely replaced the bearings in my Hope hubs. Pretty easy, but it's REALLY helpful to have a few tools for the job.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

I'm tempted to take them apart just to see whats is inside  I did watch video on servicing them seems pretty easy.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> I'm tempted to take them apart just to see whats is inside  I did watch video on servicing them seems pretty easy.


Go ahead and pull off the freehub body while you've got the bare hub sitting there. Will let you see what it looks like now, before the grease inside gets nasty, so you have a reference point. Just be vigilant with the pawls and springs so that if any fall out, you can recover them. That's less of an issue with the leaf springs Hope uses than with others like the I9 Torch that use coil springs for the pawls. But it can still happen.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Jonilink said:


> I'm tempted to take them apart just to see whats is inside  I did watch video on servicing them seems pretty easy.


Doesn't hurt! You can swap the pawls out between standard and XD if you ever installed the wheels on a different bike that uses a SRAM XD cassette.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Battery said:


> Doesn't hurt! You can swap the pawls out between standard and XD if you ever installed the wheels on a different bike that uses a SRAM XD cassette.


I'm actually looking at the new Box one 9 speed cassette that was just announced 
I wouldn't mind having a 50t but I can only think of a few times I would have needed it


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Battery said:


> Doesn't hurt! You can swap the pawls out between standard and XD if you ever installed the wheels on a different bike that uses a SRAM XD cassette.


I'm actually looking at the new Box one 9 speed cassette that was just announced 
I wouldn't mind having a 50t but I can only think of a few times I would have needed it


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Jonilink said:


> I'm actually looking at the new Box one 9 speed cassette that was just announced
> I wouldn't mind having a 50t but I can only think of a few times I would have needed it


I definitely recommend a 50t only if you plan on doing long sustained climbs. My biggest nonstop climb was 1600ft and I did that on a 11-42 cassette. I can still do long climbs on 11 speed cassettes but having some extra gearing makes my life a little easier these days.

Just the other day, I went on a massive climb fest on my road bike. I rode 41 miles and climbed nearly 2800ft in a single ride. Not bad for a 11-28 cassette! Then again, road bike gearing is way different from mountain bikes and same with the terrain


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jonilink said:


> I'm actually looking at the new Box one 9 speed cassette that was just announced
> I wouldn't mind having a 50t but I can only think of a few times I would have needed it


You may not mean the Box One - it is $360 US.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

phlegm said:


> You may not mean the Box One - it is $360 US.


Yup if I were to upgrade my cassette I'd get that one I allready have a 10 Speed so one less gear for a 50t seem like a good trade off.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Battery said:


> I definitely recommend a 50t only if you plan on doing long sustained climbs. My biggest nonstop climb was 1600ft and I did that on a 11-42 cassette. I can still do long climbs on 11 speed cassettes but having some extra gearing makes my life a little easier these days.
> 
> Just the other day, I went on a massive climb fest on my road bike. I rode 41 miles and climbed nearly 2800ft in a single ride. Not bad for a 11-28 cassette! Then again, road bike gearing is way different from mountain bikes and same with the terrain


I did some thing similar on my hardtail apparently I was crazy with only 11-42 and 30t chain ring but I locked out the front suspension and aired up my tires. It's definitely a mental game.










The climb is daunting but after that all other hills around where I live a suddenly alot easier


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Battery said:


> I definitely recommend a 50t only if you plan on doing long sustained climbs. My biggest nonstop climb was 1600ft and I did that on a 11-42 cassette. I can still do long climbs on 11 speed cassettes but having some extra gearing makes my life a little easier these days.
> 
> Just the other day, I went on a massive climb fest on my road bike. I rode 41 miles and climbed nearly 2800ft in a single ride. Not bad for a 11-28 cassette! Then again, road bike gearing is way different from mountain bikes and same with the terrain


How much I different/easier is a road bike besides weight? I had a friend go with me who has a totally carbon road bike and he barely dropped in to his lowest gear on the climb.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> Yup if I were to upgrade my cassette I'd get that one I allready have a 10 Speed so one less gear for a 50t seem like a good trade off.


no, it's not. $360 for that cassette is an unpleasant price for a wear item. That's XTR pricing. AND it would require you to buy the rest of the Box drivetrain to go with it. You'd be better off with a 10spd Sunrace cassette that'll actually work with what you've got for less than 1/3 the cost.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Harold said:


> no, it's not. $360 for that cassette is an unpleasant price for a wear item. That's XTR pricing. AND it would require you to buy the rest of the Box drivetrain to go with it. You'd be better off with a 10spd Sunrace cassette that'll actually work with what you've got for less than 1/3 the cost.


That's the way I feel about it right now. I thought for a second I read that it would just fit on a Shimano UG hub AND you didn't need to buy their shifter and derailleur but you need all their other parts. Also the weight on at least the lower end model box one 9 speed is as heavy most 12 speed cassettes.

I actually held the 12 speed sunrace cassette in my hand watched the mechanic just slide it on a bike just like mine. but I still don't climb those kind of hills very often plus it would take a new derailleur and shifter not worth it imo.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Jonilink said:


> How much I different/easier is a road bike besides weight? I had a friend go with me who has a totally carbon road bike and he barely dropped in to his lowest gear on the climb.


Lighter weight, especially the wheels $ tires, and the fact that road bikes have rigid frames makes a big difference for sure but the biggest reason that gearing is different on road vs. mtb bikes is that mtb. bikes roll on a lot rougher terrain and up steeper pitches. Road bikes like smooth pavement.

I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if you have the spoke deal resolved but if not you might want to see if the ones you have will work, even if the hub flanges are a few mm's different there's a good chance that they will. Do the calcs.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Jonilink said:


> I did some thing similar on my hardtail apparently I was crazy with only 11-42 and 30t chain ring but I locked out the front suspension and aired up my tires. It's definitely a mental game.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Jonilink said:


> How much I different/easier is a road bike besides weight? I had a friend go with me who has a totally carbon road bike and he barely dropped in to his lowest gear on the climb.


Gearing is definitely different. Road bikes are a bit more aerodynamic. Coupling that with 15-20 pounds of weight difference compared to a mountain bike, a road bike becomes a bit easier to push. I only go into my very low gears when I need it. Most of the time, I'm climbing on my big chainring and somewhere in the middle of my cassette (closer to the lower gears). Here's my last ride. I also burned nearly 3500 calories too:










My power meter numbers are way off. For some reason, my power meter decided to stop sending data part way through my ride. I normally average 200-210w instead of 48w like it says here. Most of my ability to climb is due to my cadence and standing up when I climb. I don't always stand when I climb but I will do it when I need to punch through some steeper stuff. For some reason, my data said I had a max cadence of 220rpm. I found that quite amusing because I don't think my cadence was that high. I sometimes hit 100-110rpms as my max on some climbs.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> That's the way I feel about it right now. I thought for a second I read that it would just fit on a Shimano UG hub AND you didn't need to buy their shifter and derailleur but you need all their other parts. Also the weight on at least the lower end model box one 9 speed is as heavy most 12 speed cassettes.
> 
> I actually held the 12 speed sunrace cassette in my hand watched the mechanic just slide it on a bike just like mine. but I still don't climb those kind of hills very often plus it would take a new derailleur and shifter not worth it imo.


Oh, you have the model naming scheme mixed up. Box One is the top level with the $360 cassette. Box Two is more reasonably priced, but the cassette is heavy.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Harold said:


> Oh, you have the model naming scheme mixed up. Box One is the top level with the $360 cassette. Box Two is more reasonably priced, but the cassette is heavy.


I'm saying box one as the brand name


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jonilink said:


> I'm saying box one as the brand name


It's not.

The brand is "Box Components", "Prime 9" refers to the 9spd groups (they have others), and the group levels are "One" "Two" "Three" etc.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Just need the rims now


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Harold said:


> It's not.
> 
> The brand is "Box Components", "Prime 9" refers to the 9spd groups (they have others), and the group levels are "One" "Two" "Three" etc.


Yes I realize that but It seems like most people knew what I was talking about


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Jonilink said:


> Yes I realize that but It seems like most people knew what I was talking about


Actually, I thought you meant Box One as the category of parts from Box Components


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

OK OK my bad


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> Lighter weight, especially the wheels $ tires, and the fact that road bikes have rigid frames makes a big difference for sure but the biggest reason that gearing is different on road vs. mtb bikes is that mtb. bikes roll on a lot rougher terrain and up steeper pitches. Road bikes like smooth pavement.
> 
> I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if you have the spoke deal resolved but if not you might want to see if the ones you have will work, even if the hub flanges are a few mm's different there's a good chance that they will. Do the calcs.


That interesting how durable are they?
On our way down my friend who had a road bike blew past me like I was standing still strava clocked me at 38 mph so I'm guessing he hit 45-50+?

Also how easy is the lowest gear? Obviously each bike will be a bit different but my bike has a 30t up front and up to 42t in back . Is there a similar "granny" gear on road bikes?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Jonilink said:


> That interesting how durable are they?
> On our way down my friend who had a road bike blew past me like I was standing still strava clocked me at 38 mph so I'm guessing he hit 45-50+?
> 
> Also how easy is the lowest gear? Obviously each bike will be a bit different but my bike has a 30t up front and up to 42t in back . Is there a similar "granny" gear on road bikes?


-plenty durable for the road, less maintenance on my road bike per hour than my mtb.

-yep, they're faster on the road

-just like mountain bikes, gearing for road bikes runs the gamut. Whatever you want. 34/50 with an 11/28 cassette is fairly typical.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Jonilink said:


> On our way down my friend who had a road bike blew past me like I was standing still strava clocked me at 38 mph so I'm guessing he hit 45-50+?


Funny thing about this! I actually hit 43 mph for the first time on my road bike over the weekend. Talk about tucking in and just hanging on. I was going faster than most cars on that road and luckily no cars were driving behind me.


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Battery said:


> Funny thing about this! I actually hit 43 mph for the first time on my road bike over the weekend. Talk about tucking in and just hanging on. I was going faster than most cars on that road and luckily no cars were driving behind me.


Didn't feel like went that fast the point where it really started to sink in was when I tried to pedal on highest gear it gels like my lowest....


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## Jonilink (Jun 29, 2019)

Been awhile since I chimed in on this topic but I finally got my new wheels build and I'm installing them now! Can wait to get these things muddy. The Hope hubs are crazy loud. I ended up putting a little grease on the rubber rings that are inside the QR adapters they were dry unlike the stock adapters that came with the rear hub.









I had to buy a new rear brake rotor too maybe I'll upgrade the front rotor in the future. But it's practically brand new.


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