# 29" vs 27.5+ trail hardtail



## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

Hi folks,

I'm looking for a ht complement to my 170mm 27.5 enduro for touring and riding the more mellow trails.

At first I was looking for a 29" ht with short chainstays, 120mm+, <68HA, 1x11/12 etc. Yes, there are still some 29er trail bikes like the kona honzo, but it seems that the 27.5+ bikes currently reign this segment - justified or only hype and trend?

I want a bike that climbs, rolls and descents well, so I think weight and roll resistance are also not irrelevant. 

Has anyone experience with both sizes?


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Hardtail and standard width tyres just shouldn't be in the same sentence unless you're racing seriously 

Seriously, if you buy a B+ HT, then you will most likely also be able to fit regular width 29" wheels & tyres in the frame. For me, I started off with exactly the bike you described, fantastic, fun, playful, then PLUS came along and I gave it a go and it made it much more compliant for me, which let me ride it more often and have fun because it wasn't bone jaring anymore.

There are so many options out there right now in this category, I say try as many bikes as you can to see what you like and for me, rigid/HT = steel for the nicest ride quality (Ti if you've got $$).


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

Thanks for your reply!

What's your opinion about this one:
https://thebikefactory.co.uk/product/A1686/trek-roscoe-9-2018-model-black/
Could get some discount on this (or swap brakes/cockpit). yes, there's still no geo chart available.


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## Slash5 (Nov 27, 2011)

I love my + bikes and don't really ride anything else - but I don't think I'd use the word touring and + in the same sentence. If you are thinking about longer distance, I'd go 29 - less rolling resistance and better selection of tires.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

aenduro said:


> I want a bike that climbs, rolls and descents well, so I think weight and roll resistance are also not irrelevant.
> 
> Has anyone experience with both sizes?


All good and not so good bikes do that.

Go do test rides.

One thing I can say that's great about our Honzo is it's even fine as a light duty commuter. Now our teenagers are always wanting to ride it as much as the parents.

One observance I've had with trying plus tire bikes beyond a lot of fun is the faster ones don't have the big side knobs that can help but the big side knob versions are definitely not as zippy feeling as a lot of 29r tires with side knobs. This is not saying one's better for you. Go try stuff.

FYI: I have not tried the newer AL Honzos. Now you have to do a custom build to have a steel one like ours. I cannot explain what's so appealing about it - steel Honzo. My wife and I have high end Trek AM bikes and she's got a high end carbon fiber fat bike and the whole family often goes to the heavy steel Honzo with cheap parts.


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## Bigjunk1 (Sep 17, 2016)

I am not a fan of plus tires myself. I like the less bouncy, fast rolling control and feel of a regular 29er.
Many people seem to like plus and fat tires lately though.


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

I find the kona honzo pretty interesting, but 2300.-€ for the AL/DL with SRAM NX is way too expensive. 
Never ridden one but bikeradar mentioned in their review the "punishing ride" because of the super stiff back. Can anyone confirm that? 
Also the limited tire clearance eliminates the possibility of 27.5 plus upgrade (for the case that...)

The problem with testing is: I would have to take the bike on different trails to see how it handles long climbs and also rough stuff- because that matters in the end.


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

aenduro said:


> I find the kona honzo pretty interesting, but 2300.-€ for the AL/DL with SRAM NX is way too expensive.
> Never ridden one but bikeradar mentioned in their review the "punishing ride" because of the super stiff back. Can anyone confirm that?
> Also the limited tire clearance eliminates the possibility of 27.5 plus upgrade (for the case that...)
> 
> The problem with testing is: I would have to take the bike on different trails to see how it handles long climbs and also rough stuff- because that matters in the end.


Big Honzo DL fixes all your problems:

KONA BIKES | MTB | HONZO | Big Honzo DL

Can run regular 29" wheels if you like.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

27.5+ offer broader trail capabilities than the skinny rim/tire combos you get on entry and lower level hardtail 29ers. And that's good to learn on too. More forgiving. 
But things progress. 2.6" 29 tires are coming on line. With a wide rim wheel that combo will provide a good broad range of performance and would be a choice over 27.5+ for me. Until bikes come out a Stache would be the bike I'd test ride for what you want. The Roscoe is a couple years late for Trek. And no one has ridden one yet.

https://thebikefactory.co.uk/product/97493/trek-stache-5-black-mtb-2017-model/
You're lucky, all the Stache models are sold out in the US. But the 18 aluminums are getting a frame update to match the longer reach of the 17 carbon frame bikes. Shorter stem. Trek is shipping those now.


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

I've also thought about a 29er custom built mit eagle gx, used pike/yari/rev etc., but I can only find frames that take max 2.4" - without blasting my budget (e.g. the stache carbon frame).
Which rims (inner width) do I need to run current ~ 2.35" but cover also 2.6"?
Do you have any further infos regarding the 2018 stache?


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Maybe this?

TIMBERJACK 27.5+ GX1 | Bikes | Salsa Cycles


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## gasmanxj (Sep 29, 2014)

I built a Canfield EPO in plus form a few months back and It's a ripper. Fits 29's or 2.8 x 27.5. The rear frame compliance combined with plus tires make a comfortable ride, I've done 30 + mile rides no problem. I'm an FS guy so this was a leap for me and kind of shocked how fun it is. I think the plus tires make all the difference, at least here in the chunky desert southwest.

Here's a link and there's a thread in the Canfield forum.

EPO - CARBON HARDTAIL 29er | Canfield Brothers Bikes


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

jcd46 said:


> Maybe this?
> 
> TIMBERJACK 27.5+ GX1 | Bikes | Salsa Cycles


looks similar to the trek roscoe 9 - except the trek comes with shimano 11-46 and dropper seatpost. 
I'll try to demo the roscoe as soon as its available @my lbs. Even without a discount it has imho good specs for the price.


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## cacatous (Dec 1, 2013)

aenduro said:


> looks similar to the trek roscoe 9 - except the trek comes with shimano 11-46 and dropper seatpost.
> I'll try to demo the roscoe as soon as its available @my lbs. Even without a discount it has imho good specs for the price.


What about a Norco Fluid?
Norco Fluid HT+ 7.2 (2017) review - MBR


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

hambocairns said:


> What about a Norco Fluid?
> Norco Fluid HT+ 7.2 (2017) review - MBR


Interesting, but sold out / NA at the moment. Also in general not available at my lbs - would have to order that or search another dealer.


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## cacatous (Dec 1, 2013)

aenduro said:


> Interesting, but sold out / NA at the moment. Also in general not available at my lbs - would have to order that or search another dealer.


Same story for the Scott Scale? New ones are about to drop there too.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

or something

in
O R A N G E


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

hambocairns said:


> Same story for the Scott Scale? New ones are about to drop there too.


Depends. As experience shows Scotts basic models have often horrible specs compared to similar competitor models.
E.g. the current Scale 730 Plus (also around 1.400€) comes with 2x shimano mix drivetrain, Suntour XCR and without dropper seatpost. Compared to the Trek, Salsa or Norco the Scott is ridiculously overpriced.


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## cacatous (Dec 1, 2013)

But usually weighs a couple pounds lighter. Frame quality is high. But a budget is a budget! 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

hambocairns said:


> But usually weighs a couple pounds lighter. Frame quality is high. But a budget is a budget!
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Had a look on the Scott page:
the 720 Plus (mid model) comes in at 12.9 (no size specification)
A couple pounds? You expect the trek beeing that heavy? Let's wait for the Roscoe Geo chart and weight 
Nevertheless, the 2x drivetrain on two of the 3 scale plus models (which are obv. designed for trailriding, not xc) is outdatet and obsolete imho. The rest of the 720 (which costs around 300-400 more dann the trek) is also equal or worse than the trek or the salsa.


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## eddieg7227 (Apr 15, 2017)

*Salsa timber jack*



aenduro said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> I'm looking for a ht complement to my 170mm 27.5 enduro for touring and riding the more mellow trails.
> 
> ...


i ride a salsa imberjack it has geometry that makes it a climber and playful I do 5-6 foot tabletops and 3 foot drops easy. Climbs like a goat as a 29er and is fast, if you want you can try this bike out in plus and if you hate it then put 29er on it. All you would need is different wheels and tires.


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## cacatous (Dec 1, 2013)

aenduro said:


> Had a look on the Scott page:
> the 720 Plus (mid model) comes in at 12.9 (no size specification)
> A couple pounds? You expect the trek beeing that heavy? Let's wait for the Roscoe Geo chart and weight
> Nevertheless, the 2x drivetrain on two of the 3 scale plus models (which are obv. designed for trailriding, not xc) is outdatet and obsolete imho. The rest of the 720 (which costs around 300-400 more dann the trek) is also equal or worse than the trek or the salsa.


Yeah you're right! I didn't think it was that bad but a coil fork, standard post and 2x drivetrain are a bit old hat now.

This review did state that it was the far superior frame but I reckon Trek will have that covered. Scott Scale 730 Plus (2017) review - MBR

My only concern is that there is no mention of the Roscoe 9 on Trek Australia's dealer network which means crappy 30mm Judy forks. That pretty much rules that bike out for me.


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

hambocairns said:


> ...
> My only concern is that there is no mention of the Roscoe 9 on Trek Australia's dealer network which means crappy 30mm Judy forks. That pretty much rules that bike out for me.


I agree - I wouldn't also take one below the 9er; fortunately the 9 will be available here in GER.



eddieg7227 said:


> i ride a salsa imberjack it has geometry that makes it a climber and playful I do 5-6 foot tabletops and 3 foot drops easy. Climbs like a goat as a 29er and is fast, if you want you can try this bike out in plus and if you hate it then put 29er on it. All you would need is different wheels and tires.


Seems similar to the Roscoe, except the Trek has shimano brakes and drive train and a dropper post. Regarding the specs only the Trek is also ahead here, imho.

But don't get me wrong- I'm not here to defend the Trek against any other competitor; I'm just comparing specs, numbers and the overall value.

edit:
btw. I guess the intial question (29 or 27.5?) seems to be resolved in favor of 27.5 Plus because of the versatility. But still need to demo them.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Don't forget about the Giant XTC advanced. You can run Both AND SS.

What I REALLY think would be the bees knees is SS 27+ hardtail. 

MY FA has 100mm travel and 2.35s at 25.5 lbs. My hardtail is a freakin 22 pound rocket ship with 29 2.2 mainly because of the frame. I can feel the compliance in the frame even on the street. IMO you will want the volume tire on the hardtaila nd it will be faster all around because of it if you have rocks in your trails. If it is buff with roots, I would lean towards 29 and super light.


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

FJSnoozer said:


> Don't forget about the Giant XTC advanced. You can run Both AND SS....


But the Giant is a 100mm/ 70HA xc ht? Not that you can't ride trails with it but it's a xc ht like many many others? Nothing special, or did I miss something?
What so you mean with SS? - SingleSpeed?


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

I have owned a rigid 29er of one kind or another since 2007. When I saw a steel 27.5+ (Jamis Dragonslayer) I thought it would blow my mind.

It didn't.

Not trading my 29er. Currently running 2.4/2.5 tires and it rails.

-F


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

SS = Single speed

69.0 120mm Fox 34 travel boost. Its a sick bike.
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/xtc-advanced-27dot5plus-1-2018

I think people are very much trend followers and significantly overestimate the amount of slackness that they need and overlook the benefits of having a steep head angle in rocky tech. I descend faster on a 71 degree bike than all but the fastest of fast on their enduro bikes. I don't lack "confidence in descending on that bike" which tells me the bike is not broken, the rider is.

"XC" bikes work great on anything that is not dropping freeride ladde drops or something with lift access. Yes you can ride "trails." Bike companies and bro science has put the image in poeple's head that XC means jeeproads and singletrack


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

I agree in one point: people riding often bikes which "overcapable" - but remember: this is not chargeable. 
Beside that, this whole disussion about "this bike is enough for riding that and that" is pretty pointless.
Someone could refer to Atwills HT run in Leogang (DH) this year and ask: why do someone need a fullSus at all, if he's not riding the rampage or super gnarly stuff? As said, pointless ... and it's also ignorant telling people what they need and what not.

In my view if you are not climbing super steep stuff and/or riding mainly flat trails the advantages of a slacker HA (and I'm talking about slacker, not 63°) on a "trail" bike (where the focus is on descending) were clear. 
If you are descending faster on a 71° xc bike than all others on their enduros, why are you not riding and winning the EWS with your xc?


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