# Advice? Buy new Karoo Hammerhead GPS or wait for Garmin Edge 1100??



## Danimal1 (Oct 12, 2005)

Several months ago I decided I was going to pick up a GPS for my bikes (gravel and mtb). I am planning on using it for logging rides as well as navigating new areas.

Originally I wanted to get the Edge 1000, then the 820 came out and before I could even buy one, everyone was talking about the new Edge 1010 or 1100 that was "coming soon"... long story short I still don't have a GPS.

Well now it looks like a new option is on the table and I wanted to get some of your thoughts before pulling the trigger.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/06/1...smart-computer-upgrades-routing-mapping-even/

https://www.hammerhead.io/pages/karoo


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Garmin always has new devices in the pipeline so if you always have to have the latest, you will always be waiting for something "next year" and never buying anything and using it.

Keep in mind that the Karoo is brand new and is unknown. The spec sheet looks good, but as we know with other brands, the proof is in the implementation. Other brands have failed because of their terrible implementation and support that was promised and never delivered.

A few comments:
*****I HATE TOUCHSCREENS WHEN RIDING****** I ride most of the time in a sweaty environment. Sweaty gloves and sweaty bare fingers make capacitive touchscreens go absolutely apeshit. This is no rain...the conductivity of sweat really confuses capacitive touchscreens. While it's nice that the Karoo offers buttons for wet weather use, I have seen how my phone loses it if there's too much sweat. I can't even touch the edges of it, the screen will register touches that didn't even happen.

Srsly, 3g on the device? While I understand how this can be a boon to connected features because there's no longer a concern with a flaky BT pairing process with your phone, using this feature means you have to have a data plan for the device. How well does the device do without it? Does it cripple the device's functionality? Considering the impact to the battery, I don't see ever wanting to enable 3G, anyway.

Audio streaming? Good lord, this is the last thing we need. More BT headphones/speakers on the trail.

I like the robust processor and massive amounts of memory, though. 

I would prefer to have a better idea about the maps you can load onto the device, though. They make some fairly bold claims and I'll say I have my doubts. My state, for example, doesn't offer publicly available map data distinguishing between gravel roads and paved roads. Some data exists, but it's incomplete. It makes general statements about "dirt" routes. Are they talking mtb trails? Again, where are they getting that data? Every source I've ever seen has incomplete/unreliable SOMEWHERE (usually multiple somewheres). I do my trail research in a lot of different places and again, they're making pretty bold claims I have my doubts they can back up if they're saying you can search and plan mtb routes ON THE DEVICE.

I get the impression that this device is much more road-focused. How is GPS signal acquisition time when 3G is off? Are the maps useful for mtb riding? Satellite imagery frankly is not so useful on the trail, because most places I ride look like a green mass due to the dense forests. Is there a nice topo map layer available? Does the "water droplet rejection" do anything regarding my sweat concerns? Does the company back up its claims to support the device and fix the inevitable bugs that will pop up in software? With the complexity of the feature set, I see quite a few issues early on.

My view on this device is pretty guarded at this point. There's certainly room for this company to give Garmin a kick in the seat of their pants, but that's only going to happen if the device is reliable and the company does a good job with support and following up on their promises.


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## eggdog (Nov 17, 2010)

I have also been looking at this Karoo...It looks like they are pretty dedicated to putting out a nice useful GPS. I am taking a chance and purchased one with their introduction price offer..I have used Garmin's for so long, but am ready to try something new...


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## Aushiker (Sep 27, 2007)

eggdog said:


> I have also been looking at this Karoo...It looks like they are pretty dedicated to putting out a nice useful GPS. I am taking a chance and purchased one with their introduction price offer..I have used Garmin's for so long, but am ready to try something new...


Have you received it? Purchasing now shipping is not to 2018 ... long wait with no guarantee anything will turn up ... decision decisions stick with my Wahoo Elemnt or take a shot with one of these.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

FWIW, the Garmin Edge 1030 (you're gonna have to wait a good while for the 1100) is available now, it appears.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/567991


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## eggdog (Nov 17, 2010)

Aushiker said:


> Have you received it? Purchasing now shipping is not to 2018 ... long wait with no guarantee anything will turn up ... decision decisions stick with my Wahoo Elemnt or take a shot with one of these.


Have not received yet..They are due to ship out first batch this month according to their latest product updated ( yesterday). If it is as good as it is being described, I am willing to take the chance...Hope to have it soon.


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

eggdog said:


> Have not received yet..They are due to ship out first batch this month according to their latest product updated ( yesterday). If it is as good as it is being described, I am willing to take the chance...Hope to have it soon.


I preordered back in may, still waiting on mine. they're having supply issues with vendors slowing the manufacturing. keeps getting pushed back, month to month... typical kickstarter ****...


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## perchera (Dec 19, 2017)

*Very promising*



Danimal1 said:


> Several months ago I decided I was going to pick up a GPS for my bikes (gravel and mtb). I am planning on using it for logging rides as well as navigating new areas.
> 
> Originally I wanted to get the Edge 1000, then the 820 came out and before I could even buy one, everyone was talking about the new Edge 1010 or 1100 that was "coming soon"... long story short I still don't have a GPS.
> 
> ...


I bought and cancelled twice.
I read and read all the news from Karoo but despite the promises i am missing a few features.

- Maps: by now they only offer one type of map, openstreet like, and we know they can be very inacurate sometimes. Specially if you are not a road rider. Satellite maps, wikiloc maps, or even better rmap/jnx like maps so that we can create custom maps when nothing good is available in openstreet.

- If the above would be true, extended sd card would be of help but we can cope with 16Gb.

- Apps compatibility. I know, this is not an android phone, and developers don't want all the crap from google play, but it would be great to be able to install some apps of our own (apk files). I ride with a dedicated gps and sometimes need to check maps in my phone through other apps (wikiloc, twonav, even google maps). Why not having that choice if this device is android based?

Still waiting for the perfect dedicated gps...


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

perchera said:


> I bought and cancelled twice.
> I read and read all the news from Karoo but despite the promises i am missing a few features.
> 
> - Maps: by now they only offer one type of map, openstreet like, and we know they can be very inacurate sometimes. Specially if you are not a road rider. Satellite maps, wikiloc maps, or even better rmap/jnx like maps so that we can create custom maps when nothing good is available in openstreet.
> ...


You are going to be waiting a long time if you want everything on your list.

Might as well develop your own that does exactly what you want.

Most people here do not understand all of the developer/programmer jargon you threw out. Me, I just want something that works, is relatively small, and is rugged and simple to use.

I have tried to like digital mapping, but I cannot. The implementations I have used just aren't as good as a squishy brain and a paper map.

Garmin will eventually release something they call the Edge 1100, but who knows when? The 1030 came out less than a year ago.

Either continue using what you have or buy something on the market now. I don't really care, but make a bloody decision. It is not that difficult.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## perchera (Dec 19, 2017)

Harold said:


> You are going to be waiting a long time if you want everything on your list.
> 
> Might as well develop your own that does exactly what you want.
> 
> ...


Hello Harold, is it my poor English or i find your reply kind of agressive?

I put only 3 things in my list:
- map capability
- perhaps more storage through sd card
- take advantage of the android based OS to give users the freedom to use other apps.

- Maps: Garmin for example comes with built in propietary routable maps (expensive!) and new models are compatible with raster maps (jnx format, not routable) which are the closest thing to paper maps and easily downloadble from many free sources.
- More storage: not such wild idea.
- Where it comes to opening the OS, i know this is a wild idea, i can sit and wait, no manufacturer will do that, but we know that expert users can do it. Garmin cooked firmware is easy to find to get rid of some of the limitations of the propietary firmware. This might happen to the Karoo: if they don't open the kitchen someone might do it.

Programmer/developer jargon? what jargon did i "throw out" that you think most people here will not understand? this is a gps thread, a little gps jargon is expected, why do you understimate users knowledge?

Are you really asking me to develop my own gps to get the improvements i would like? Well i guess you never complain when you get your beef steak overcooked for the fear of being sent to the kitchen to "develop" your own. Should users not demand new solutions, we would still send telegrams or navigate with paper maps and compass (that i also love by the way)

You say you "don't really care what i buy" but you want me to make a "bloody decision now", you're more in a hurry than me, lol. I am happy with my dedicated gps, and with my phone, that does not mean i don't keep an eye on new stuff.

If you ever need advice for digital mapping just let me know. I'm not too bad at that. A good digital map in a good gps receiver is a great thing even when riding/hiking with paper maps.

Let's answer Danimal1:
- The Karoo will perfectly serve to log your rides. Logs will save in your device and upload to the Karoo platform. Some integration with Strava and others has already been implemented and i presume logs will be downloadable in order to use them together with your favourite laptop/mobile application if needed.
- When it comes to navigating new areas, the Karoo built in maps (openstreet based) might be inacurate or inexistent depending on the area. That's a big drawback for me. You may want to use this gps not only for your bike but also for your hikes, good maps are essential.
- It seems the Karoo web dashboard will let you use satellite maps when planning your route at home in your laptop, that would partly solve the problem, satellite map will display tracks that do not exist in digital openstreet maps. But you don't have that satellite view on the go when riding/hiking, route changes on the go will be limited by the built in map.
- You can also download a known route (gpx file) from several sources and navigate it, but again you're stuck to one map only in your device if you decide to make changes on the go.

Regards


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

perchera said:


> Hello Harold, is it my poor English or i find your reply kind of agressive?
> 
> I put only 3 things in my list:
> - map capability
> ...


Simply enough, what you want doesn't exist. You know enough that you should be able to come to that conclusion easily enough.

I have my doubts that it will exist anytime soon. Major issues for adding apps like you describe are processing power and battery life, simply enough. Add enough processing power to handle it and you increase the need for more battery capacity. That makes the device ever bigger at this point. That's part of the reason why modern cell phones are as big as they are.

Most people who get a dedicated bike computer want it reasonably small. Garmin's 1000-series models are already far too big for me to put on my handlebars. The Edge 520 is a good size. The 820 is about the same size, which is good. The problem there is the addition of the touchscreen. Capacitive touchscreens are $hit on a bike computer when you live in warm/humid climates where you sweat balls all the time. They become unusable.

Your description of app formats is where you lost me, and probably most other people here. Who cares what format the app is?

I find it interesting that you don't mention maps from gpsfiledepot for Garmins. This has been my primary source of maps for Garmins for years. The file sizes aren't terrible, either. I can fit quite a few onto my Edge 520, which doesn't have all that much free memory to work with. The procedure to create such maps is out there, and if you're willing to buy a fairly expensive program for the process, you can make them routable. You can even layer different maps on top of each other. I do this on my Edge 520. It cannot route on said maps, but that's fine.

As to digital mapping, I find it laughable that you're offering to help me in that regard. No, I don't need help doing it. Digital mapping sucks. I grudgingly use it when I drive my car because it is better than most paper road maps, even though it has its own limitations that create problems frequently enough. Especially in cities with road networks that are difficult to navigate at all like where I live now. But out in the woods on trails? Digital maps are sorely inadequate. On a device, the view is too restricted to see enough. Routing is absolutely horrendous when anyone tries to make it available for trails. Frankly, the only thing I care for my digital device to tell me is where I am NOW so that I can take that information and make my own decisions based on the larger view I'm able to get from my paper map, as well as from what I see on the terrain and on the trail.


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

Harold said:


> Your description of app formats is where you lost me, and probably most other people here. Who cares what format the app is?
> 
> .


Ummm... people that write apps for android devices...? Which is a very reasonable statement considering just about anybody can write and load an app for an android device and not have to go through an official channel like you would an iOS device and itunes store. Amazing things, that increase the functionality of the device, could come of this.

And I agree with Perchera, you seem a little hostile and perterbed that someone may have an opinion and have needs that are different from yours.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mattsavage said:


> Ummm... people that write apps for android devices...? Which is a very reasonable statement considering just about anybody can write and load an app for an android device and not have to go through an official channel like you would an iOS device and itunes store. Amazing things, that increase the functionality of the device, could come of this.
> 
> And I agree with Perchera, you seem a little hostile and perterbed that someone may have an opinion and have needs that are different from yours.


How many people do you suspect write apps for android devices? My first point was that such a topic is well above the level of this forum. This is hardly a developers' forum. And my point that if he wants a device to do such, it doesn't exist, and if he wants it that bad, he should make one, doesn't seem so farfetched.


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## perchera (Dec 19, 2017)

Harold said:


> Simply enough, what you want doesn't exist. You know enough that you should be able to come to that conclusion easily enough. I have my doubts that it will exist anytime soon.


Devices with more than one map format capability DO exist. Most in fact.
Devices with microSD expandable storage DO exist. Most in fact.
Devices with open OS do not exist (afain), though as i said, for the popular devices, cooks cooked alternative firmware. Like the Garmin reading only their propietary jnx raster maps, change the firmware and you can read any jnx raster maps (legal maps).

This Karoo being android based is close to being open OS.

By the way, there was something like this, the Garmin Monterra, but it was far too big for a bike, and like all Garmin products, it was abandonned by the manufacturer the moment they made their new latest device. I "love" Garmin's policy when it comes to support their "old" devices. Device sold, device abandonned.



Harold said:


> Major issues for adding apps like you describe are processing power and battery life, simply enough. Add enough processing power to handle it and you increase the need for more battery capacity. That makes the device ever bigger at this point. That's part of the reason why modern cell phones are as big as they are.


I am not planning to have Facebook in a device like this, nor whatsapp, nor anything that would squeeze the battery. If you know Oruxmaps or Twonav and you get to like them you may understand why one would love to use these android apps in a dedicated android gps.
By the way, the Karoo is 1.3Ghz processor and 2Gb ram, more than enough to run any app.
Modern cells are not big bc they have many apps that need much power, cells are big bc they have large brilliant screens, wifi, bt, lte... and people like them big. The Karoo is not tiny though.



Harold said:


> Capacitive touchscreens are $hit on a bike computer when you live in warm/humid climates where you sweat balls all the time. They become unusable.


I've had three dedicated gps with transflective touchscreens. Never had an issue with sweat or heavy rain.



Harold said:


> Your description of app formats is where you lost me, and probably most other people here. Who cares what format the app is?


Did i describe app formats?
You're lost but you don't ask. You're lost and you assume most other people here are lost. You don't care and you assume nobody cares. I call that arrogance.



Harold said:


> I find it interesting that you don't mention maps from gpsfiledepot for Garmins. This has been my primary source of maps for Garmins for years.


Sorry that i don't mention your primary source of maps, i presume i should, like everybody here. I don't use Garmin by the way, that might be the why.



Harold said:


> As to digital mapping, I find it laughable that you're offering to help me in that regard. No, I don't need help doing it. Digital mapping sucks.


Well, it was you who said that "the implementations that you used for digital mapping are not as good as brain and a paper map". Maybe you did not use the right/better implementation or you don't know that there are communities out there doing that job for you. You just need to download the map if you like it. "Digital map" does not necessarily mean vector-routable map. Paper-like maps can also be in digital format (raster maps), ah of course, you don't know them, like nobody here and nobody cares)



Harold said:


> Frankly, the only thing I care for my digital device to tell me is where I am NOW so that I can take that information and make my own decisions based on the larger view I'm able to get from my paper map, as well as from what I see on the terrain and on the trail.


That summarizes your whole point. I understand you like using your gps like a compass bc you like paper maps. I do that sometimes, especially when hiking, but i don't see myself on the bike with paper maps on a warm humid rainy day if i am sweating balls.

From my part, and quoting you, "enough". Have a good day.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

perchera said:


> Devices with more than one map format capability DO exist. Most in fact.
> Devices with microSD expandable storage DO exist. Most in fact.
> Devices with open OS do not exist (afain), though as i said, for the popular devices, cooks cooked alternative firmware. Like the Garmin reading only their propietary jnx raster maps, change the firmware and you can read any jnx raster maps (legal maps).
> 
> ...


I think your language barrier is causing you most of the problems you appear to have with me. My first response to you only contained mild snark.

What doesn't exist is the specific combination of hardware and software you discuss. It just isn't there. There's nothing I can do about it. I'm not a hardware developer. I'm not a software developer. Not even smartphone apps. I just don't do it. I don't know ANYONE who does, either. Complaining about stuff that doesn't exist on this forum is about as useless as it gets. There are better places to do that. This forum is pretty much a collection of users. A few "power users" but mostly not. Mostly just regular folks who just want to buy something that works. They don't care about file formats or app development or any of that.

I am not the only person who has had problems with sweat and capacitive touchscreens. I've had several devices with them, and I DO have problems. Resistive touchscreens are a different story. They don't respond at all with sweat. But lots of people gripe because they aren't as sensitive as capacitive ones.

Raster maps on devices suck even worse than vector maps, routable or not. I've used them when hiking and riding. I don't like them. Good maps for the outdoors don't have problems with sweat. They use quality waterproof paper, or you can coat regular paper with something waterproof, or you can put the crappy paper in a case, lots of solutions. I even have a couple that are printed on microfiber cloths and are most excellent when you're sweaty. But trying to do much with my phone when I'm soaked in sweat...ha! It registers touches when I don't even touch the screen. It registers touches in the wrong place when I DO touch the screen. It becomes entirely unusable.

You are correct that a big, brilliant touchscreen is a major power drain. That's another reason I don't want one.

I still laugh that you think I don't know much about digital mapping. I know more than you think. I work with digital mapping on my PC. I've done quite a bit of fairly involved work with said products. I have put together custom vector and raster maps for use on my Garmin handhelds. I have digitized and georeferenced print maps for digital use and distribution, even via mobile devices. I know there are communities of people that work on digital maps. It doesn't mean I am happy with them. It doesn't mean that I want to get involved with any of those projects to improve those maps. I would much rather make paper maps that I'm happy with. And I've done just that, and even made a little money doing so.


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## perchera (Dec 19, 2017)

Harold, let's have a look at your reply to danimal1 and my reply to danimal1.

SCREEN:
- You hate touchscreens. You wonder if the droplet test proves it will work like promised.
- I don't hate touchscreens as long as they are usable under rain. Karoo states it's transflective but says nothing about being capacitive or resistive. Rather than a droplet test with minimum finger touches i would like to see a heavy shower test with lots of screen interaction.

3G:
- You wonder about the 3G functionality.
- I did not even mention bc i don't find it necessary. Maps and all can be (should be) preloaded with wifi, ideally at home but you can also hotspot your own phone if you carry it with you. Some claim it can be used to send alerts in case of emergency. I would not buy and extra chip and data plan for that. 

AUDIO:
BT audiostreem. We agree, i don't see myself with bt earphones on the trail. I would prefer the device having some sort of speaker for alerts when deviating from the route or approaching waypoint.

THE DEVICE ITSELF:
Processor and ram seem fine for both of us. I would add that the screen is too exposed to hits, i miss a bumper frame.

MAPS:
It seems we pretty much agree in the diagnosis. You wanna know more about what maps can be loaded. Me too. Well in fact we know, by now only the maps that Karoo is producing. Perhaps in the future they will support more formats. I don't buy "perhaps".

So, where's the problem btw your view and mine?

MAPS:
You are an expert in digital maps but you hate digital maps, all kind of digital maps. In your words, they all suck, nothing like a waterproof paper map.
I love digital maps. Each activity require a different map. Sometimes vector, sometimes raster, sometimes satellite, or a combination of them. Some people like them routable some are happy with plain raster imagery.
Danimal only needs to know that, by now, the Karoo brings little choice, only their map and we don't know how good or bad it is. And that could be a real drawback for navigating unknown/badly mapped areas.

GETTING MORE FROM THE DEVICE:
You accept the device as it is. That's wise. No one guarantees what improvements it could bring in the future. Most users should accept devices as they are unless they are ready to mess and eventually brick their devices or, in the best of cases, void their guarantee.

I don't have much faith that the device can be improved the way i would like. Same as Garmin, it is what it is. But popular devices soon fall in the hands of developers who can tweak firmware. That, only developers can do it, while we, regular users, just wait that it happens, and if that happens with Karoo, a big window will open to use fantastic navigation apps like wikiloc, oruxmaps or twonav. Again, i don't buy perhaps.

I came to this forum by accident finding info about the Karoo. First units have been shipped and i'd like to see real reviews.
I am not asking/expecting anybody here to develop anything. I am just saying it may happen like it happens with Garmin.

Blame it on MY language barrier but i still find you hostile to me and patronizing to other users (your constant referral to regular folks who don't know anything nor care about anything shocks me).

You can reply if you wish, you'll have the final word, i promise.
Edit: i asked the admin to delete my account. I leave you in peace.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

perchera said:


> MAPS:
> You are an expert in digital maps but you hate digital maps, all kind of digital maps. In your words, they all suck, nothing like a waterproof paper map.
> I love digital maps. Each activity require a different map. Sometimes vector, sometimes raster, sometimes satellite, or a combination of them. Some people like them routable some are happy with plain raster imagery.
> Danimal only needs to know that, by now, the Karoo brings little choice, only their map and we don't know how good or bad it is. And that could be a real drawback for navigating unknown/badly mapped areas.


You misjudge my comments. My point was this: I use digital map data and products quite a bit. I'm hardly an expert, but I do know more than many. Others can characterize me as an expert if they want. I know very intimately the limitations of digital maps, again, moreso than many. I totally get that different maps are used for different things. I've used LANDSAT satellite imagery to analyze land cover changes over the course of a 30yr time period. I've used all kinds of maps for scouting land for new mtb trails. Garmin Edges and other fitness receivers were not built for that kind of use. Their primary function is recording data. Some models offer more or less mapping capability than others, but that mapping capability is biased towards wayfinding. IME, pretty much all of those on-device wayfinding systems work better for road riding than for mtb riding. I own a Garmin Oregon 450 that I used for riding for awhile when I was unhappy with other options. I loaded raster maps onto it on a number of occasions. I really have a difficult time finding occasions where a raster map would have been better on that device for fitness use over a vector map. The ability to install raster maps on any fitness device therefore doesn't compute for me. You're the first person who has brought up that functionality as a desired feature on this forum.



> GETTING MORE FROM THE DEVICE:
> You accept the device as it is. That's wise. No one guarantees what improvements it could bring in the future. Most users should accept devices as they are unless they are ready to mess and eventually brick their devices or, in the best of cases, void their guarantee.
> 
> I don't have much faith that the device can be improved the way i would like. Same as Garmin, it is what it is. But popular devices soon fall in the hands of developers who can tweak firmware. That, only developers can do it, while we, regular users, just wait that it happens, and if that happens with Karoo, a big window will open to use fantastic navigation apps like wikiloc, oruxmaps or twonav. Again, i don't buy perhaps.
> ...


Here I think you're missing out on the culture of this particular forum. I get that there are many folks who tinker with their electronic devices. Jailbreaking their phones, digging into a device's programming to make it do something its designers never intended, whatever. This forum has never been about that. If there are users here who do, this is not where they discuss such things, because the majority aren't interested. Most here would rather do stuff like that with their bikes. You're new here and you lambast me for my assessment of the people who visit this forum. I'm not making $hit up. Scroll through just the first page of discussions and look at the titles. Nobody's talking about any of those things. My assessment is based on years of discussions that have occurred here. I've been a member of mtbr since before selective availability was turned off, and NOBODY used a GPS on their bike. I've seen how the discussions have changed over the years to include more phone apps, and now smartwatches. I've seen manufacturers put a good fight against Garmin and then die off, and new competitors show up. Even with Garmin, the most anyone ever really talks about here is installing non-Garmin maps, or using the new ConnectIQ apps (and not very much of that, even). If you want to read about people's attempts to modify the firmware of their small bike computers, I still assert this is a terrible place to do it, because most people here are just talking about far simpler things like which device on the market as-is will work best for them, figuring out particular features, asking basic GPS nav questions, and the occasional review. And, far too many questions theorizing the next as-yet-unannounced model from Garmin.


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

FWIW, I now have my hands on the Karoo... I would the production release isn’t even ready for beta testing at this point. It’s about 5% functional. I would be more satisfied with giants new basic gps device. Also, it does not work on Verizon’s cdma network...


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## Bearwong (Feb 17, 2021)

mattsavage said:


> FWIW, I now have my hands on the Karoo... I would the production release isn't even ready for beta testing at this point. It's about 5% functional. I would be more satisfied with giants new basic gps device. Also, it does not work on Verizon's cdma network...


 Have you tried it? How is it? How is the battery working time?


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