# Back to the sport on an eBike



## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Hello! I was pretty hardcore rider in the late 80s and early 90s. My first bike was a GT Tequesta, followed by the original StumpJumper that came equipped with elastomer Rock Shox. I just stepped out of a time machine.

I arrived on the 2016 scene to find all kinds of post "space-age" materials. Hydraulic Disc brakes. Full suspension. Wireless shifting. LED lighting.GPS and Heart Rate monitors. Insanely light bikes. All designed to make riding more efficient, right?

But the same people who swear by unobtanium chain rings seem to scoff at pedelec tech?

As animals we are pretty low on the list of "best at converting energy into forward motion". Until we leverage technology. A bike rockets us to the top of the heap. The moral of the story? If you aren't *running* ...*barefoot*, then you are a machine-riding *****.

I stumbled upon the concept of eBikes recently and was lucky to pick up a Specialized Levo FSR Comp 6Fattie a few weeks ago. It is a magic bike. It allows me to ride with much better conditioned/younger riders. I get awesome workouts. As good as they are getting. Yesterday is attached.















I don't buy into the idea that you need to be particularly old or injured to enjoy an eBike. I'm 51 (under 30 with assist)and completely healthy. I need to lose weight and I love riding. I live in relatively hilly country. Now I don't need to carry my bike to the trailhead on a rack. I love this bike. I look forward to helping dispel the misconceptions based upon my real world experience riding alongside guys who used to be the ultimate skeptics and now think my bike is the coolest thing ever.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

daven007 said:


> As animals we are pretty low on the list of "best at converting energy into forward motion". Until we leverage technology.


Not true






I get a kick out of knowing it's *my* energy being converted to move me forward, that's what makes cycling so special to me.

Everyone has different tastes though, enjoy your electric bike!


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

It is true, despite the fact that some men can run down some animals. I'll find the study when I have a chance. It's very interesting. If you don't believe that a bicycle provides mechanical advantage over running, then I am not sure what to say.

I ran cross country and track in high school and college. All bikes are cheats.

If you look at the Strava data I posted you can see that quite a lot of my energy is going into moving my bike forward. My speed is just enhanced, and I can get exactly the workout I am looking for by "tuning the assist to moderate the terrain".

Ultimately, enjoyment is the point. As you pointed out.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

daven007 said:


> If you don't believe that a bicycle provides mechanical advantage over running, then I am not sure what to say.


Of course a bicycle provides a mechanical advantage, why would I say otherwise? You mentioned that _"as animals we are pretty low on the list of "best at converting energy into forward motion"_ and I was only providing evidence that that isn't necessarily true.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

By confusing "pretty low on the list" with "at the bottom of the list", you indicated that maybe the science escaped you. The motion study I refer to looked at birds, land and marine mammals, fish, etc. It wasn't entitled "Man versus kudu on a hot day".

I am sure you could hunt me down like an animal over the course of 50 miles or so as my battery depleted and I found myself, like an exhausted kudu, riding a 50 pound bike with 3 inch tires. ;-)


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

ebike is not a sport. Get a dirtbike & stick to the ohv trails.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OK since you're in the mood for being snarky



daven007 said:


> If you look at the Strava data I posted you can see that quite a lot of my energy is going into moving my bike forward.


Do you honestly think it's *you* that's kicking out 330 watts?


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

WHALENARD said:


> ebike is not a sport. Get a dirtbike & stick to the ohv trails.


Bicycles are meant for bike paths. They tear up the Earth with their knobby tires.

Get off your saddle and run, you lazy ****.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> OK since you're in the mood for being snarky
> 
> Do you honestly think it's *you* that's kicking out 330 watts?


No. Of course not. I considered getting $900 torque sensing pedals to get my actual output but honestly I am mainly interested in my heart rate over time. Over the terrain I have available at my doorstep, I would be going anaerobic too soon without the assist on some sections and not getting the workout I desire. In less than month of regular riding, I have been able to dial back the assist and achieve identical results. That's what I mean by "tuning the terrain". It's very cool. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone with my cycling prowess. This is a tool for me to make fitness gains.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

You could just, you know, get back into shape the normal way. By riding shorter/easier rides until you're in shape.

Best of all, it's free...

-Walt


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Walt said:


> You could just, you know, get back into shape the normal way. By riding shorter/easier rides until you're in shape.
> 
> Best of all, it's free...
> 
> -Walt


It isn't a question of shorter being easier. And for me, it isn't exactly "getting back into shape". It's getting into *better* shape by maintaining my heart rate at certain rates over time in an enjoyable way.

Where I live there are some hills that many "serious" riders avoid when they want to ride for more than 90 minutes at a good pace (heart rate). They have bike racks. They drive to a starting point. Many of their bikes are twice the price of mine. None of them ride "free" bikes. For trail rides, they tend to drive to the trailhead. I ride.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Oh good another emotorbike troll.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Ok, so you want a motor to make hard stuff easier and have more fun. Sounds great. Stay on motorized trails and have a blast!

-Walt


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> Oh good another emotorbike troll.


I thought this was the eBike forum.

Where does this condescension come from? This is hilariously pathetic.

Just to piss you off even more, my 2017 NSX will be here in about a month and it has THREE ELECTRIC MOTORS.

Now THAT is how you troll.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

It's only nominally an e-bike forum. MTBR wanted the ad revenue but the vast majority of people here really dislike the whole concept. So really it's mostly a forum about where e-bikes should/should not be allowed. 

Endless sphere will satisfy your gear nerd urges.

-Walt


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Walt said:


> Ok, so you want a motor to make hard stuff easier and have more fun. Sounds great. Stay on motorized trails and have a blast!
> 
> -Walt


I'll ride where it is legal.

Do you sell anything that makes riding easier?


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Walt said:


> It's only nominally an e-bike forum. MTBR wanted the ad revenue but the vast majority of people here really dislike the whole concept. So really it's mostly a forum about where e-bikes should/should not be allowed.
> 
> Endless sphere will satisfy your gear nerd urges.
> 
> -Walt


That is funny. Seriously.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Good on ya!

And, for the record, I don't sell any power-increasing devices. Thanks for asking.

-Walt


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Walt said:


> Good on ya!
> 
> And, for the record, I don't sell any power-increasing devices. Thanks for asking.
> 
> -Walt


Nothing that increases efficiency? Nothing that reduces effort or increases speed?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Nice try. That argument has already been hashed out in previous threads - long story short, a motor is a whole different ballgame. 

Enjoy your bike where it's legal.

-Walt


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Walt said:


> Nice try. That argument has already been hashed out in previous threads - long story short, a motor is a whole different ballgame.
> 
> Enjoy your bike where it's legal.
> 
> -Walt


You do realize that in California, access to trails for low speed pedelecs is being authorized every day? One trail at time.

The only places I can't ride my bike are the same places you can't legally ride your bike.

We like bikes in California. We LOVE electric things, especially. Solar stuff. Electric cars. I have two electric cars and a Hybrid on the way.

I enjoy all of them. Legally. Lol.

I get it now. This is about a disruptive threat. That is the only thing that can explain it.

Same reason why Ford hates Tesla.


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

There are lots of other ways besides riding bicycles that help people get in better shape, nothing wrong with that. Coming to a bicycle forum to tell everyone that their way is better than riding a bicycle seems like knocking your head against a wall for fun.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

formula4speed said:


> There are lots of other ways besides riding bicycles that help people get in better shape, nothing wrong with that. Coming to a bicycle forum to tell everyone that their way is better than riding a bicycle seems like knocking your head against a wall for fun.


I came to an eBike forum. To talk about eBikes. I googled "eBike Forum".


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Give it a couple years. Things may shake out the way you want. Or they may shake out that e-bikes get banned from all sorts of places. Hopefully they won't take human powered bikes with them if that happens.

I have zero to gain and a lot to lose from e-bikes in terms of trail access. So far I've yet to hear a good reason to support increasing access, and we've already seen (on this forum!) modifications beyond legal/factory spec, poaching of non-e-bike trails, etc. 

I think they're probably appropriate in lots of places. But their advocates do themselves no favors by continuing to insist they're just like normal bikes.

-Walt


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

daven007 said:


> You do realize that in California, access to trails for low speed pedelecs is being authorized every day? One trail at time.
> 
> The only places I can't ride my bike are the same places you can't legally ride your bike.
> 
> ...


You do realize that there are 49 other states that don't give a flyin fook about California, right?


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> You do realize that there are 49 other states that don't give a flyin fook about California, right?


A few too many headers?

My reply was to the constant snarky tag line "Enjoy it where it's legal".

I pointed out that it is silly to say that to a person surrounded by legal trails.

You may not understand that if California is able to set reasonable rules for certain classes of eBikes based upon modifying European regulations...and that this will likely affect where you live, then maybe it wasn't the headers what done it after all.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

No snark, I do hope you enjoy it. As long as you don't disrupt other users and change the experience, I honestly don't care where you ride. But it's very easy to predict the effects of large numbers of 750w/20mph e-bikes on most trails - they will quickly drive away all other users, and then those irate folks will get some or all bikes banned.

Why the industry did not adopt the EU limits I have no idea, but it was really, really stupid.

-Walt


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Walt said:


> Give it a couple years. Things may shake out the way you want. Or they may shake out that e-bikes get banned from all sorts of places. Hopefully they won't take human powered bikes with them if that happens.
> 
> I have zero to gain and a lot to lose from e-bikes in terms of trail access. So far I've yet to hear a good reason to support increasing access, and we've already seen (on this forum!) modifications beyond legal/factory spec, poaching of non-e-bike trails, etc.
> 
> ...


I understand the concern that eBikes will set back hard earned access gains. That makes sense. Hopefully that won't be the case. I can tell you from experience that the strategy of demonizing and ridiculing people for embracing disruptive technology is not a winning strategy. They are here to stay. Battery and motor technology will make them lighter and lighter. Software will make them infinitely more tunable than the relatively crude Gen 1 systems out today. People who are genuinely concerned about losing access to trails should get ahead of this by embracing reasonable standards. Motor versus no motor is not going to fly. Watch the share of eBike sales in certain $ categories. I predict it will be astonishing to see the growth. there will be slack-jawed dolts who haven't experienced massive technological disruption before and just can't understand what is happening, of course. In the end, I predict that your best advocates will end up being people like me. If you can't imagine that, that's fine. I'm in the tech biz and have watched worlds turned upside down. The people who fight change always lose.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Walt said:


> No snark, I do hope you enjoy it. As long as you don't disrupt other users and change the experience, I honestly don't care where you ride. But it's very easy to predict the effects of large numbers of 750w/20mph e-bikes on most trails - they will quickly drive away all other users, and then those irate folks will get some or all bikes banned.
> 
> Why the industry did not adopt the EU limits I have no idea, but it was really, really stupid.
> 
> -Walt


I talk about California because I happen to live here. I think they are honing in on not allowing that kind of bike out on "Mountain Bike Trails" which makes sense. IMO, based upon limited experience, that a 250w pedal assist only bike that is speed limited is reasonable. And as i said in another reply, I think they are going to be coming at us in waves. Simply having assist isn't going to flood trails with idiots who can't ride. I don't think that is a real risk. The risk of losing access for everyone? That's a reasonable concern, but I truly believe that low powered assisted "smart bikes" and the government agencies who will support them will end up as advocates. I really do. People with misplaced, righteous indignation are never going to be happy. Runners sneer at bikes. Bikers sneer at cars. Too much sneering going on.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

The thing is, offroad motorcycles today are way faster and more capable than they were 40 years ago. They're awesome. Yay progress!

But they have a lot fewer trails to ride, because they're too fast/disruptive to share space with slower users.

I think it's important to realize that making mountain bikes faster is probably a *bad thing* overall. Many of us here would happily trade in our suspension, fancy tubeless tires, etc to keep access to the trails we love, because the trails matter more than the bikes. Saying that bikes need to "progress" is silly - they're not serving some noble purpose or saving any lives by going faster (at least in the context of recreational trail riding), and the biggest problem they face is that they're much faster than other users on MUTs. 

More speed is not "progress" in any meaningful sense, because mountain biking is just basically pointless fun, and most of that fun is derived from the terrain, not the bike. Take away the terrain, and who cares how awesome the bike is?

-Walt


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Walt said:


> The thing is, offroad motorcycles today are way faster and more capable than they were 40 years ago. They're awesome. Yay progress!
> 
> But they have a lot fewer trails to ride, because they're too fast/disruptive to share space with slower users.
> 
> ...


I'm with you. I have done a few "experimental rides" with people on road bikes (they lose me on the downhill and can hammer away on the flat, but I regain ground over long, uphill sections.) and on the trails (I can keep up while going uphill, and could pass...but downhill I am not faster. Terrain, skill, and reasoned fear keep my speed below what gravity could deliver.)

I have lots of ride data. My bike would slow down the riders on the high school team coached by my friends.

Based on my experience, inconsiderate riders are the real problem. They scare horses. They scare hikers. They scare other riders. The difference that my bike makes isn't as great as the difference between an inconsiderate rider or the difference between a 25 year old and a 50 year old. It doesn't take a 250w motor to be reckless.

By the way, when I say "fear" I'd like to think it is more, "Ya know, rounding that corner a little faster isn't worth having oozing wounds for a week. "Why are your pant legs wet, Dave?" "Oh that's just lymphatic fluid from having no skin and poison oak where I still have skin."

Bottom line. I think well designed regulations can handle speed concerns. There will be bad actors. Just like there are now.

Now if you are for an all out ban on high school mountain bike racers who are still immortal, I might have to agree.

I get the concerns. I didn't come here to argue. Seriously.  I swear I just came to see if there were other people with bikes like mine doing stuff like I have been doing. If my delight with my bike is any indication, there will be lots more to come. Especially as people (like me) age and find that they can enjoy covering terrain the same way they did when they were much younger AND get an amazing workout.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Dave, thanks for carrying the torch for awhile. FWIW, I'm in CA too and enjoying the trails out here, especially as more and more are being opened. There are several e-proponents that post semi-regularly and a bunch of non-e-bikers. It's been fun associating with them since some are really high quality people who have expressed being in an environment that makes e-MTB's dangerous to their access of trails. Actually, many of us agree on lots of considerations.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

daven007 said:


> I don't buy into the idea that you need to be particularly old or injured to enjoy an eBike. I'm 51 (under 30 with assist)and completely healthy. I need to lose weight and I love riding. I live in relatively hilly country. Now I don't need to carry my bike to the trailhead on a rack. I love this bike. I look forward to helping dispel the misconceptions based upon my real world experience riding alongside guys who used to be the ultimate skeptics and now think my bike is the coolest thing ever.


Congrats! I'm currently thinking about getting one for my wife.

And as she's 5'8" and I'm 5'10", a medium frame can fit us both. If I get her one, I plan on taking it out for rides from time to time as well.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

fos'l said:


> Dave, thanks for carrying the torch for awhile. FWIW, I'm in CA too and enjoying the trails out here, especially as more and more are being opened. There are several e-proponents that post semi-regularly and a bunch of non-e-bikers. It's been fun associating with them since some are really high quality people who have expressed being in an environment that makes e-MTB's dangerous to their access of trails. Actually, many of us agree on lots of considerations.


I think I understand the legitimate concerns and the reason for the reactions of people to my original post. If it meant reduced access to trails, I'd agree to not ride an eBike on said trails. I'm not interested in my own enjoyment at others expense.

It would just be an excuse for me to get another bike. I already have my eye on a nice road bike. Hold the E in this case.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

daven007 said:


> Especially as people (like me) age and find that they can enjoy covering terrain the same way they did when they were much younger AND get an amazing workout.


That's great but there are alternatives, I'm older than you and in many ways riding better than I ever have. Not bragging but I could crush a lot of 20-somethings on a bike.

Honestly I think it's nice that you found something that works for you and improves your health, and I don't mean to be such an arguebot but all the false claims and justifications obviously bother me somewhat. Call it what it is, an electric bike, and enjoy it for what it is. Seems so easy.

Repeat 3 times- _it isn't a bicycle_


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's great but there are alternatives, I'm older than you and in many ways riding better than I ever have. Not bragging but I could crush a lot of 20-somethings on a bike.
> 
> Honestly I think it's nice that you found something that works for you and improves your health, and I don't mean to be such an arguebot but all the false claims and justifications obviously bother me somewhat. Call it what it is, an electric bike, and enjoy it for what it is. Seems so easy.
> 
> Repeat 3 times- _it isn't a bicycle_


My point is that there is a difference between pedal assist and a lightweight, electric motorcycle.

That's where I have a hard time understanding people's vehemence.

As far as speed is concerned, ANY modern mountain bike is capable of "rude speed". Regardless of what I am riding, I slow for foot traffic. I come to a stop for horses. People tearing down the trail crushing 20 year olds along the way...THOSE are the people we need to watch out for. (jk)

By the way, I have met about a million (slightly exaggerated) cyclists and very few are jerks. I ALWAYS assume that two monitors, two keyboards and a million miles (no exaggeration) of wires between two people tends to not "assist" friendly dialogue. ;-)

I have come to the conclusion after being involved in this controversy for exactly 24 hours, that throttles and motors over a reasonable limit need to be separated from bikes like mine that shouldn't bother anyone. If I cover the little green lights on the downtube you would not spot it as an eBike. I still can't keep up with 20-year old crushers tearing down mountains without fear. Lumping them in with "lightweight electric motorcycles" is a mistake. We should be united against those things.

Oh, yeah. And let's not forget that my bike isn't going to get anyone out on a real trail on it's own. It isn't a magic pill that overcomes laziness. It doesn't impart any "don't hit a tree", "don't hit that root", "don't hit that rock", "don't go off that cliff" skills.

It's not a bike. It's not a bike. It's not a bike.

Did I wish it away to the cornfield? 

-dave


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

daven007 said:


> I'll ride where it is legal.
> 
> Do you sell anything that makes riding easier?


 I call it coffee, a good breakfast and sense of pride .Bacon helps too.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

daven007 said:


> I understand the concern that eBikes will set back hard earned access gains. That makes sense. Hopefully that won't be the case. I can tell you from experience that the strategy of demonizing and ridiculing people for embracing disruptive technology is not a winning strategy. They are here to stay. Battery and motor technology will make them lighter and lighter. Software will make them infinitely more tunable than the relatively crude Gen 1 systems out today. People who are genuinely concerned about losing access to trails should get ahead of this by embracing reasonable standards. Motor versus no motor is not going to fly. Watch the share of eBike sales in certain $ categories. I predict it will be astonishing to see the growth. there will be slack-jawed dolts who haven't experienced massive technological disruption before and just can't understand what is happening, of course. In the end, I predict that your best advocates will end up being people like me. If you can't imagine that, that's fine. I'm in the tech biz and have watched worlds turned upside down. The people who fight change always lose.


 Motor vs no motor is the rule of the land here in MA. No motors allowed. On multi use trails. That's how the rules are written here. What flys in La La land might not go over well in the rest of the US. And the crowded east. New tech, great. E bikes, awesome. I think they are great for commuters, those wanting to go car light, cargo bikes, those with physical limitations. Some sports are hard and not for everybody. And not everybody wants to do stuff easier.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I sort of understand the sentiment of using E assist to get back into the sport and regain some fitness. The argument runs adrift however, because there is little to no evidence that once one is "back in shape" the ebike gets abandoned and a pedal bike takes its' place. It just doesn't happen. The crutch (ebike) becomes the regular ride.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

daven007 said:


> We should be united against those things.


There is no benefit at all to mountain bikers in creating any sort of confusion regarding blurring the distinct line between motorized vs non that exists now. Mountain bikers have nothing to gain and a lot to lose by blurring that line.

Also, why should we be 'united against' electric, or any other kind of motorcycles? Motorized toys are fun as hell. As long as my MTB access isn't affected by them, what do I care? (Which is exactly the same attitude I have re: e-bikes btw. But when people start with the usual false narrative of "I can take it anywhere real bikes are allowed", that starts the ball rolling towards bans of all wheeled vehicles, since many e-bikers think they can pretend their motor is not a motor).


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

daven007 said:


> I thought this was the eBike forum.
> 
> Where does this condescension come from? This is hilariously pathetic.
> 
> ...


That's awesome! Please don't take it on non-motorized trails though.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

chuckha62 said:


> I sort of understand the sentiment of using E assist to get back into the sport and regain some fitness. The argument runs adrift however, because there is little to no evidence that once one is "back in shape" the ebike gets abandoned and a pedal bike takes its' place. It just doesn't happen. The crutch (ebike) becomes the regular ride.


What difference does that make, and why do you care?

Will you be racing people on eBikes for money?

Why do you care how I choose to exercise?

My eBike allows me to get an identical workout over a 30 mile ride with my buddies on their carbon fiber road bikes. They consider me to be in "pretty good shape" and are fascinated by the whole concept.


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## spoonrobot (Dec 18, 2013)

:madman:


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

daven007 said:


> What difference does that make, and why do you care?
> 
> Will you be racing people on eBikes for money?
> 
> ...


Doesn't appear that you have a power meter on that bike, so I'm wondering how you make that statement with a straight face

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> Doesn't appear that you have a power meter on that bike, so I'm wondering how you make that statement with a straight face
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Straight face? Power meter?

I am talking about sustaining my heart rate within particular zones over periods of time. That's measure of how hard I was working. Not what I was able to "achieve" in terms of power generated. That is different.

As I said, I thought about getting the $900 torque sensing pedals and applying the math so I could get credit for my weight, the weight of the bike, etc. but at the time it didn't seem to be data that would be meaningful.

Thinking about it, that might be cool. Now I am curious. If they actually work without interfering with anything, I'll get them. I swear to God if I have to replace my Garmin 520 just to get them to work, I will not be happy. 

You guys are making a lot of assumptions about me. Any information about my history with regards to endurance sports is going to make me sound like a tool. I'm not some slob. Lol. I should find a buddy to chime in with his thoughts. Someone with far more credibility in the Mountain Biking world.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Welcome to MTBRs ghetto. I think much of the problem is that as Californians we see how well ebikes and pbikes can share access and don't really "get" the doctrinal opposition. We haven't had any problems in Topanga during the year+ that we have been allowed access and I don't understand all the opposition here based upon theoretical what-ifs and worst case scenarios presented as the new status quo. It all seems so silly when you live somewhere that contradicts everyday what the doomsayers here moan about. Just keep riding and keep having fun: living well is the best revenge!


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

WoodlandHills said:


> Welcome to MTBRs ghetto. I think much of the problem is that as Californians we see how well ebikes and pbikes can share access and don't really "get" the doctrinal opposition. We haven't had any problems in Topanga during the year+ that we have been allowed access and I don't understand all the opposition here based upon theoretical what-ifs and worst case scenarios presented as the new status quo. It all seems so silly when you live somewhere that contradicts everyday what the doomsayers here moan about. Just keep riding and keep having fun: living well is the best revenge!


Interesting. That's what I am seeing up here, also. I'm in the foothills of the Sierra on the way to Tahoe. NorCal.

I have enjoyed the distraction and interesting perspectives here.

I had no idea that this was even a debate.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

daven007 said:


> I had no idea that this was even a debate.


A pretty extensive debate as well.

As a new user you might not have thought about reading through some of the other threads before you posted, hence the quick backlash of users who have heard the "it's the same things as a bicycle" line over and over again.

It is similar yes, but eBikes - pedal Assist or Throttle controlled - are not bicycles and every state, county and City has the right to decide where they are and are not legal to ride. Some local laws trump state laws as well, so self education is important.

California certainly has taken the lead in setting a state law on where Certain powered Pedal Assist bikes can ride, but that still does not mean your local County, City or Parks n Rec department agrees. I think Rockcrusher made a comment about the park that banned ALL bikes because some idiots on pedal bikes, NOT eBikes were traveling downhill at 20+mph. Since many eBikes can reach 20+ on the flats, and some higher powered ones can do that uphill, it scares the crap out of users who are afraid of losing access. So when anyone makes a blanket statement like "it is a bike, so I can ride it anywhere I can ride a bike" it can irritate many users.

Here is some light reading in this very forum about the debates of trail access:

http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/access-e-mtbs-1019205.html

http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/concepts-where-pro-o-ponents-concert-1019441.html

http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/e-bikes-where-do-they-fit-1015924.html


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

daven007 said:


> Interesting. That's what I am seeing up here, also. I'm in the foothills of the Sierra on the way to Tahoe. NorCal.
> 
> I have enjoyed the distraction and interesting perspectives here.
> 
> I had no idea that this was even a debate.


If you're riding near Tahoe, most of that area is USFS land, and many/most of the trails do not permit motorized vehicles like yours.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> A pretty extensive debate as well.
> 
> As a new user you might not have thought about reading through some of the other threads before you posted, hence the quick backlash of users who have heard the "it's the same things as a bicycle" line over and over again.
> 
> ...


I'll check it out. Thanks.

I guess I am lucky I live where I live. No problems so far when people are courteous to one another. Especially when horses are involved. ;-)


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

A touch sensitive, eh? No biggie to me, I ride what I ride. You ride what you ride. I was commenting about one of the arguments used by riders returning to a sport they once loved. If that's not your position, then that's cool. While the access issue is being resolved for the long term, just ride where you're allowed and I'll do the same. 

Right on, Write on, Ride on.

Cheers!


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> If you're riding near Tahoe, most of that area is USFS land, and many/most of the trails do not permit motorized vehicles like yours.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I'll be riding with a USFS LEO this weekend. I'll see what he has to say. Honestly it is hard to keep track of where you are in this area. BLM. Private forest land. USFS. State Park. City recreation district. Nature Conservancy. As you enter the trail that circumnavigates the lake where I live, "Right is wrong". That direction is off limits to bikes. Of course it is one of the most popular mountain bike trails in the area. I don't ride there. My eBike makes it easy to follow the rules and skip that section.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

What he has to say is irrelevant. It's illegal to ride e-bikes on non-OHV trails on USFS and BLM land. Pretty simple.

I mean, a cop can think it's cool to extort the local populace, but that doesn't mean it's legal, either. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> What he has to say is irrelevant. It's illegal to ride e-bikes on non-OHV trails on USFS and BLM land. Pretty simple.
> 
> I mean, a cop can think it's cool to extort the local populace, but that doesn't mean it's legal, either.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Funny you should say that... I was going to chime in here, that that may not be the best test of legality... I can't tell you how many times I've been on ride-alongs with LEOs and have witnessed them say, "What are they going to do? We're the cops!" to various infractions...


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> What he has to say is irrelevant. It's illegal to ride e-bikes on non-OHV trails on USFS and BLM land. Pretty simple.
> 
> I mean, a cop can think it's cool to extort the local populace, but that doesn't mean it's legal, either.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


What is considered the proper way to respond to such a statement on this forum?

I appreciate your unsolicited legal advice, but I respectfully decline to consider it to more relevant than the advice I receive from the person responsible for enforcing the laws in question.

I'll go with that.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

chuckha62 said:


> Funny you should say that... I was going to chime in here, that that may not be the best test of legality... I can't tell you how many times I've been on ride-alongs with LEOs and have witnessed them say, "What are they going to do? We're the cops!" to various infractions...


It may be a slightly better test than the "Did a random guy on the internet say so" test.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

daven007 said:


> It may be a slightly better test than the "Did a random guy on the internet say so" test.


Not really.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

daven007 said:


> I'll go with that.


Seems OK to me.

Since you are new to the circus, here's a couple of unsolicited links to USFS and BLM policy which you could discuss with your LEO friend if you so choose.

http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/20150929EBikesBriefingPaper.pdf

IM 2015-060, Electronic Powered Bicycles on Public Lands

Since you ride within such a mix of multi jurisdictional land, I don't envy you trying to keep things straight.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

daven007 said:


> It may be a slightly better test than the "Did a random guy on the internet say so" test.


Nah, if you read it on the internet, it has to be true!


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Harryman said:


> Seems OK to me.
> 
> Since you are new to the circus, here's a couple of unsolicited links to USFS and BLM policy which you could discuss with your LEO friend if you so choose.
> 
> ...


I guess I am surprised by the level of zeal here. I don't see this level of attention to detail being paid by the hundreds of mountain bikers riding on prohibited trails within 1/4 mile of my house. I actually feel a bit silly that I ride around those sections.

I'd love some links to stories about citations issued to people on pedelec, 250w bikes.

My bike looks pretty innocuous and my behavior doesn't indicate anything odd. My speed/performance on the trail is somewhere in the middle of the pack. Etiquette is impeccable. My fat tires seem to dig less deeply into the terrain.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> If you're riding near Tahoe, most of that area is USFS land, and many/most of the trails do not permit motorized vehicles like yours.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Could you point me in the direction of some examples of folks who have been cited or arrested for riding Class 1 eBikes on USFS in California or on other prohibited trails?

I am curious to hear how much they paid in fines, etc.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

daven007 said:


> What is considered the proper way to respond to such a statement on this forum?
> 
> I appreciate your unsolicited legal advice, but I respectfully decline to consider it to more relevant than the advice I receive from the person responsible for enforcing the laws in question.
> 
> I'll go with that.


So, your interpretation is that what a cop says is the law?

And, what is codified in the federal registered is NOT the law?

Got it.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> So, your interpretation is that what a cop says is the law?
> 
> And, what is codified in the federal registered is NOT the law?
> 
> ...


Could you point me to some info about folks who were cited or arrested for riding Class 1 eBikes in California?

To answer your question, No, you are not a good source of information nor do I trust your interpretation of the law. So, yes, I trust what the cop says about the law and how it is interpreted in the field.

Here is an illegal trail ride. State Park. Horse trails. On any given weekend you will find hundreds of mountain bikers. Not me. I ride around this section.

Mountain Biking Folsom Lake: Singletrack to Salmon Falls | Team Road Rash


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

daven007 said:


> Could you point me to some info about folks who were cited or arrested for riding Class 1 eBikes in California?
> 
> To answer your question, No, you are not a good source of information nor do I trust your interpretation of the law. So, yes, I trust what the cop says about the law and how it is interpreted in the field.
> 
> ...


In the face of printed facts it's always helpful to have a straw man, yours is burning by the way.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> In the face of printed facts it's always helpful to have a straw man, yours is burning by the way.


You are confused about the definition of a "straw man argument", but that doesn't change my point. Laws are interpreted and they are enforced in the real world.

Shockingly, you will find that cars regularly exceed the speed limit in the presence of the Highway Patrol. (That is not a "Straw Man Argument" either, by the way.)

If you are confused by me not answering the inane question "Is what a cop says the law versus what is codified..." then I will answer in a way you can understand.

No. The law is the law.

But rational people understand that laws are interpreted and they are enforced. Otherwise we would have no judges, lawyers, cops, etc. There would be no need. We would just read Le Duke's posts and order our society accordingly.

The point about illegal trail riding being apparently customary was pretty easy to confirm. It seems to be far more prevalent than eBike issues. Again. Not a Straw Man.

Have you guys been bullying people on this forum for a long time?


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

daven007:

You may very well have stumbled into a hornet's nest, unknowingly and not be a troll at all. 

As you can tell, this is still a hot topic issue and will probably continue to be even after the trail access issue is settled (one way or another) for the long term. Some of us, myself included, believe that the motorless manifestation of the bicycle equals a "bicycle", period. Adding a motor (even a very small one) makes it something different, not better, not worse, just different. I also believe that there is most definitely a place for the electric assist version of the bicycle, but a non-motorized trail should remain just that way. People will cite all kinds of reasons for keeping them the way they are and you can certainly find countless threads regarding the various reasons. Some are very sound in their reasoning.

For me personally, I do NOT wish for my rides to be easier. In fact, I am the opposite and intentionally make my riding harder, in order to stay as fit as I can given the ticking clock that I face in my mid 50's.

Read up and hopefully we can all get along.

Cheers! Chuck


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

chuckha62 said:


> daven007:
> 
> You may very well have stumbled into a hornet's nest, unknowingly and not be a troll at all.
> 
> ...


Well said. I am not a troll. I just found myself with a day off before a bunch of travel. I really should sign off.

The funny thing is, I have a weird feeling that I am going to follow the links to the REAL eBike forums that you guys have provided and find out that they are nut jobs who really are doing stupid stuff.

I may be back next week asking forgiveness for ever tossing in with their miserable lot.

There has got to be something fueling what seems to be crazy rage against this whole subject.

Cheers


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

daven007 said:


> Have you guys been bullying people on this forum for a long time?


No, the sub forum was revived not that long ago. You might get the feeling that it is not too well received by an overwhelming percentage of people here.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Oddly, just as I finished editing my previous post, I looked down and realized the shirt I just happen to be wearing at the office today...

Also, my sig. line...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

daven007 said:


> Well said. I am not a troll. I just found myself with a day off before a bunch of travel. I really should sign off.
> 
> The funny thing is, I have a weird feeling that I am going to follow the links to the REAL eBike forums that you guys have provided and find out that they are nut jobs who really are doing stupid stuff.
> 
> ...


I think you're reading in a lot of emotion that may not be there (definitely isn't in my case, and many of the others too). We've just got concerns about all of a sudden having motors added to the already touchy subject (in many, but not all places) of MTB trail access. The 'strictly human powered' angle has gained us a LOT as mountain bikers. As long as e-bikes are managed as a unique and separate user group, have at it! I know plenty of traditionally non-motorized trails that I don't see any problems rising from sharing with low-powered pedal-assist e-bikes. I just don't want to have to be the one to fight for their access or to be kept out due to being entwined with motorized use. This is what will inevitably happen if people insist they can take them wherever a real bike is allowed; it give anti-bike people a lot of ammo and I don't feel that regular mountain bikers should be saddled with being responsible for e-bikes by default. It can be tough enough to advocate for human powered bike access without that getting stuck with that albatross around our necks too.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

daven007 said:


> I guess I am surprised by the level of zeal here. I don't see this level of attention to detail being paid by the hundreds of mountain bikers riding on prohibited trails within 1/4 mile of my house. I actually feel a bit silly that I ride around those sections.
> 
> I'd love some links to stories about citations issued to people on pedelec, 250w bikes.
> 
> My bike looks pretty innocuous and my behavior doesn't indicate anything odd. My speed/performance on the trail is somewhere in the middle of the pack. Etiquette is impeccable. My fat tires seem to dig less deeply into the terrain.


I should explain then. I honestly don't care where you ride your ebike in CA. The impact of all emtbs at this point, including the old guys like you who are behaving themselves like almost all other mountain bikers and the small percentage of idiots who aren't, is tiny in CA and almost non existent elsewhere. There's money to be made and the numbers will increase, they're fun to ride right? I expect that in a few years they will be a common sight, how common is tbd, but a significant enough population that they will no longer be invisible and their impact will be felt.

On either end of the pro/anti spectrum is "They are just bikes, they should be allowed anywhere bikes can go!" and "They are the devils spawn, burn them with fire!", neither of which is a practical management policy IMO. I'm working on coming up with legislation and management policy that is somewhere in the middle and accordingly, have spent a lot of time over the past year researching legislation elsewhere, what has worked, what has not and where people bypass it altogether. As well as seeing how the emtb communities have evolved as ebike tech has evolved. We in the US have a different set of parameters and environment to work with, emtbs here are really an experiment.

Your singular experience of riding an emtb and not causing problems or being hasseled is no more indicitatve of what we will see than my singular experience (also an old guy) of riding my mtb and not causing problems or being hasseled.

The CA emtb management policy can't be considered a success any more than Colorado's, we have few to none emtb conflict issues here as well since they are only allowed on motorized trails and statistically, they don't exist. The present situation in both places bears little reality to what we will be dealing with in 5 years. There will be a lot more people on faster and lighter emtbs that will appeal to different riders, not just old guys who want a little assist, but those who simply want a new faster experience. It would benefit both communities to look at the big picture and work together at something reasonable, which you might be surprised at how many here are willing to do.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Dave, what you'll find on the other forums is some are oriented toward DIY and high power (ES), some e-commuting (ped.uk) and some general topics (bike forums). Fortunately, all have neither the degree of nastiness nor the rancor displayed by some here. Outside of a few individuals that don't like each other, most get along and don't say anything derogatory. Unfortunately, this is the one most associated with off road use and has the most potential for us.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

daven007 said:


> The funny thing is, I have a weird feeling that I am going to follow the links to the REAL eBike forums that you guys have provided and find out that they are nut jobs who really are doing stupid stuff.


Depends on the forums lol, some are full of dumpster dived scary deathtraps with high powered motors on them, some are people just riding OEM bikes talking about tires and such.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

daven007 said:


> Could you point me to some info about folks who were cited or arrested for riding Class 1 eBikes in California?
> 
> To answer your question, No, you are not a good source of information nor do I trust your interpretation of the law. So, yes, I trust what the cop says about the law and how it is interpreted in the field.
> 
> ...


Please video tape the LEO's statement and interpretation of federal law and post it here.

Please include a last name and Ranger District, too. We'll see how his interpretation of the law does when it is compared to that of his boss, or boss's boss.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

@ daven007 just an FYI Strava has an E-Bike Ride activity which you should be using. It's the honest and sportsman-like thing to do.

I took the time to flag your above activity @ Strava; you may wish to re-post it in the appropriate category.

Cheers.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

The problem with using the ebike setting on Strava is that most of the features are not activated vs the pbike settings. If Strava would treat us equally, we wouldn't have to use the pbike setting.........

I use Strava all the time, but I describe my ebike in the equipment section of my profile and I also use an "electric" handle: like Volt Watthour or Lance Ampere. IMHO, it is Strava's problem, not mine.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> The problem with using the ebike setting on Strava is that most of the features are not activated vs the pbike settings. If Strava would treat us equally, we wouldn't have to use the pbike setting.........
> 
> I use Strava all the time, but I describe my ebike in the equipment section of my profile and I also use an "electric" handle: like Volt Watthour or Lance Ampere. IMHO, it is Strava's problem, not mine.


As long as you stay near the bottom of the leader-boards I'll let you enjoy your (self) deception; get up where you're competing with "real bike riders" and there's a bunch of us "real bike riders" who'll gladly flag you.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> The problem with using the ebike setting on Strava is that most of the features are not activated vs the pbike settings. If Strava would treat us equally, we wouldn't have to use the pbike setting.........
> 
> I use Strava all the time, but I describe my ebike in the equipment section of my profile and I also use an "electric" handle: like Volt Watthour or Lance Ampere. IMHO, it is Strava's problem, not mine.


Actually it's every persons problem who uses the app. Whether you like it, agree with it, or not a lot of people use strava to track and compare their progress with other athletes.

_Strava | Run and *Cycling* Tracking on the Social Network for *Athletes*
https://www.strava.com/
Strava
Designed by *athletes*, for *athletes*
_

And though it may be trivial to you using a motor to beat a cyclist who might have trained their ass off to crack the top 100 on a hill climb segment really isn't fair to them. You could easily avoid "having to use the pbike(ugh!) setting" by choosing one of the many other available tracking apps.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

The simple way is just keep your e-bike rides private on Strava; you'll still be able to compete against yourself on segments and monitor your "workouts". And "real bike riders" wont be affected.

A bigger picture not well understood by all cyclists is that Strava makes their money by selling (mostly to planning agencies) "activity" data that has been posted publicly. This could have both good and bad consequences to bicycling access; it can point to areas needing more bike lanes/trails or can shut down areas where biking is being done at high speeds or "after hours". Having e-bikes in that data mix is not good. Report e-bike usage honestly.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

pliebenberg said:


> The simple way is just keep your e-bike rides private on Strava; you'll still be able to compete against yourself on segments and monitor your "workouts". And "real bike riders" wont be affected.
> 
> A bigger picture not well understood by all cyclists is that Strava makes their money by selling (mostly to planning agencies) "activity" data that has been posted publicly. This could have both good and bad consequences to bicycling access; it can point to areas needing more bike lanes/trails or can shut down areas where biking is being done at high speeds or "after hours". Having e-bikes in that data mix is not good. Report e-bike usage honestly.


 So what? I only ride where my ebike is legal and as I indicated in an earlier post: I am so slow that I have been harassed by pbikes on the trail for descending too slowly.

Strava is a public app, offered without restriction to anyone with a smartphone, if Strava is having problems with classifying the data they get, its their problem to fix their app. If it had been designed correctly from the start this would be a non-issue as I would not lose functionality when identifying as an ebike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> If it had been designed correctly from the start this would be a non-issue as I would not lose functionality when identifying as an ebike.


As mentioned it wasn't designed for motorbikes so it wasn't incorrectly designed, you are incorrectly using it. I could easily turn it on in my car and collect KOMs, is that a design flaw?

You may indeed be slow as snot but you're still coming in ahead of people who ride bicycles.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I cannot support anyone on an eBike who is posting times as if they were a pedal bike. That is shameful.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I just don't get the Strava thing at all. As I age, I just have a challenge keeping up with my younger self. Gauging that is easy, it's called a watch.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> So what? I only ride where my ebike is legal and as I indicated in an earlier post: I am so slow that I have been harassed by pbikes on the trail for descending too slowly.
> 
> Strava is a public app, offered without restriction to anyone with a smartphone, if Strava is having problems with classifying the data they get, its their problem to fix their app. If it had been designed correctly from the start this would be a non-issue as I would not lose functionality when identifying as an ebike.


You sure do flaunt the rules a lot for someone that is breaking them. Posting Strava times, what a joke you are.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chuckha62 said:


> I just don't get the Strava thing at all.


It is dumb, especially at my age. There will soon come a time when I'll never get another pr or even an "achievement" to stroke my ego after rides, which will be quite depressing. Hopefully my memory will also go and my wife can reset it under a different user name every year so I can start anew as I deteriorate. Strangely addicting for now though.

What's a watch?


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

daven007 said:


> It allows me to ride with much better conditioned/younger riders. I get awesome workouts. As good as they are getting.


This is absurd!


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> As mentioned it wasn't designed for motorbikes so it wasn't incorrectly designed, you are incorrectly using it. I could easily turn it on in my car and collect KOMs, is that a design flaw?
> 
> You may indeed be slow as snot but you're still coming in ahead of people who ride bicycles.


In fact using a vehicle to grab KOM's is right at the top for reporting abuse at the Strava flagging page:


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

chuckha62 said:


> I just don't get the Strava thing at all.


Me either, I just ride and enjoy it, no one, including me is interested in my stats on a mtb.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

According to the laws of my state (CA) and the rules of my riding area (Topanga State Park) my class 1 ebike is a bicycle. Also, I have no idea if my rides are "posted" and don't really care. I use Strava to track my distances when I dont have my gps mounted on my bike and I would ID as an ebike if I did not lose functionality of the app. But since I do, I don't. Seems like Strava has the problem not me because it's working just fine so far and does everything I want it to do. 

Maybe Strava should spend some of that money they earn tattling on bicyclists to the authorities and fix their app so that all users have access to all features?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Harry, agree with you totally; Shakespeare said it best IMO "Much Ado About Nothing". However, can't & won't argue with those who live and die by it. Didn't care when few riders passed me, don't now when most do.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> Maybe Strava should spend some of that money they earn tattling on bicyclists to the authorities and fix their app so that all users have access to all features?


No surprise there, that's the type of entitled attitude I'd expect coming from a trail raging snake hunter. Why not launch your own app dedicated towards electric bike enthusiasts? In the meantime you should merge forces with this thread-

http://forums.mtbr.com/fifty-years-old/cheating-liking-1021411.html


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Daven, 
I am on your side of the wold on both sides. I reside in Rocklin and I too own an e-bike.

I'd like to point out that I bought an e-bike for the simple need of getting back out there and enjoying a hobby I once enjoyed in my early days as well. I had a knee injury years ago that prevented anything like riding a bicycle other than a few blocks around my home. The e-bike allows me to ride not only to fit my handicap but to also enjoy what my tax dollars pay for & what I deep down love - Nature.

A few folk on here are so high up on their plywood horse that they can't seem to even argue with facts. Just assumptions and selfishness.

Let's point this out.. Everyone negative to e-bikes are most likely folk who have NEVER rode an e-bike before. These things aren't that powerful. They are most certainly not nearly as powerful (get up an go) as a motorcycle! Sure the e-bikes will move you and allow you to travel.. but lets be realistic here guys. It's like an escalator.

After riding my bike I have learned that majority of my rides are under my own power. I typically use pedal assist level 1 which is around 10mph. I often ride around 12mph which means I use 100% of what I'm putting into the pedals. My bike tells me how much power it is pushing to the motor. So when it reads "000" that means no power is being used and I'm pushing my hunk of metal all by myself. It really boils down to discipline. If you buy an e-bike to simply ride with zero effort, then I can see it being a meaningful debate. But I assume most e-bikers actually want to operate a bicycle like anyone else but just need a little boost to keep up or keep motivated..

Anyway I learned awhile ago that this forum is full of low level peasants who simply are selfish a-holes. They go on an on about their precious trails and yada yada. Most these guys have never rode an e-bike before and simply don't understand.

What they also don't understand is that an e-bike is a hybrid of two power methods. Lets take a normal bicycle. We slap an electric motor on there to achieve speeds most guys on here could achieve under their own power. There are times I can pedal and ride at around 18mph under my own power. This is all while pushing a 60lb bike!!

Lets slap a high power motor and bigger battery on a motorcycle to replace the gas motor and what do we have..

These guys on here want e-bikes to ride with equipment that far exceeds the capabilities of nearly all typical e-bikes. Like a golf cart on the highway. However on a multi-use trail that are designed for walking/biking - you often have road bikes on there going much faster, people walking at slow speeds and at times a person on an electric wheel chair. These are the type of guys who will say that a hand powered wheel chair is okay but an electric wheel chair is.. well - that's just dangerous! E-bikes (at least mine at 750w) can only go up a hill under its OWN power at around 10mph. And I'm sure that's killing the battery trying to push 240lbs up a hill..


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ImaBum said:


> Daven,
> Anyway I learned awhile ago that this forum is full of low level peasants who simply are selfish a-holes. They go on an on about their precious trails and yada yada. Most these guys have never rode an e-bike before and simply don't understand.


Quoted for posterity.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

tiretracks said:


> Quoted for posterity.


I approve this message!


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Flagged on Strava? OMG that is priceless. I acquire data. I share that data with my friends. How pathetic. I have looked at a couple of segments. There are people who average 28mph over sections that I average 16. Who freaking cares? I posted a snapshot to show the workout I am getting. What a bunch of idiots. I'm going to reach out to the people who care about ad revenue on this site. The moderators are allowing it to be poisoned by this nonsense. It is amazing.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ImaBum said:


> ...snip...


I think if you actually go back and do some reading in this sub-forum, you'll find you're wrong on all counts when it comes to the majority of posters. Some actually own e-bikes themselves, and a few likely know more about them than you do.

And you don't like people who consider trails a precious resource? Where do you think trails come from in the first place? Hint: they don't just magically appear and then sustain themselves.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> According to the laws of my state (CA) and the rules of my riding area (Topanga State Park) my class 1 ebike is a bicycle. Also, I have no idea if my rides are "posted" and don't really care. I use Strava to track my distances when I dont have my gps mounted on my bike and I would ID as an ebike if I did not lose functionality of the app. But since I do, I don't. Seems like Strava has the problem not me because it's working just fine so far and does everything I want it to do.
> 
> Maybe Strava should spend some of that money they earn tattling on bicyclists to the authorities and fix their app so that all users have access to all features?


How many times can you misquote the CA guidelines? It's an 'electric bicycle'. The modifier is important; that's why they included it. And how do you figure that has any bearing on telling Strava how should run their business?

Maybe you should create a tracking app just for CA, where people are wacky enough to try to say a motor is not a motor, instead of demanding everyone else suspend common sense to accommodate you. Adding the motor makes it a different animal. That's the whole reason you bought the thing in the first place, isn't it?

FWIW, I don't use or care about Strava (or any other tracking app).


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> I think if you actually go back and do some reading in this sub-forum, you'll find you're wrong on all counts when it comes to the majority of posters. Some actually own e-bikes themselves, and a few likely know more about them than you do.
> 
> And you don't like people who consider trails a precious resource? Where do you think trails come from in the first place? Hint: they don't just magically appear and then sustain themselves.


I'm sure there are folk who know more about ebikes than I do. I have read a lot on here about ebikes. Of course in this sub section there are lots of positive owners. And of course the typical trolls who come into these threads and flip the tables and make a mess because of the ways their piss poor parents raised em.

I'm very well aware of how trails are created and funded. But I'm sorry you feel like you need to belittle me because I called out some morons who can't tell two sticks from a pipe about the trails they think they actually own. Selfish ignorant pricks.. ban the ones who ride like a holes. Not the bikes that assist one way or another.


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