# Scandium frame repair?



## ollyisk (Nov 4, 2009)

I posted this in the 29er forum and they said I should post it here, which I probably should have done in the first place...anyway:

Okay, last November I bought a used Niner One 9 frame on eBay. I ordered parts for it a couple weeks later...today I'm still waiting for the parts, but that's another story all together...

Anyway, when I got the frame, I gave it once over and decided I wanted to paint it because the paint on it was rough. Admittedly, I didn't inspect it as closely as I should have--assuming everything was fine. At a quick glance it looked okay and the eBay description said it was ugly, but sound.

Since I don't have the parts yet, the frame has been collecting dust in my basement. The rest of my build is supposedly _almost_ ready to be shipped, so I decided that I would finally bite the bullet and get the bike painted this week, in anticipation of receving my [very] long awaited parts.

I took the frame to an custom automotive place to get painted (since scandium is sensitive to powder coating), and as the guy was looking over the frame, he noticed two cracks, one on each chain stay...:madman:

I had never noticed them (again, I should have been much more thorough in my inspection, but I assumed the seller was honest when he said there was nothing wrong with the frame), and I bought the frame four months ago; I don't think I can take any action against the seller, or try to return it to him for a refund four months later.

The guy I went to said he could try to weld it, but he's not sure what would happen as he's not worked with scandium before and he said he doesn't often weld stuff as thin as the bike tubing. I almost told him to go for it, but ultimately decided I'd hang on to the frame and do a little research. The frame is outside of its warranty, and I guess at this point, I don't really have a lot to lose by having him give it a go--I didn't find much reassurance googling "scandium frame repair."

Am I boned, or is this frame salvageable? Disclaimer: these questions may sound really dumb to you, but I have absolutely no knowledge when it comes to welding or frame repair.

If the frame is able to be repaired with tools that an auto place would have on hand (at a reasonable cost)? Are there any special precautions that should be taken with the scandium? I know a lot of custom builders do frame repair, but does anyone work with scandium? I figured it'd be easier to post here and ask than to email 50 different builders asking the same question. I don't have any picture of the cracks, but they're very small at this point, if that helps.

I appreciate any helpful advice, or laughs at my expense...:madman:


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## Eville140 (Nov 26, 2010)

Not sure this will help any
http://www.eastoncycling.com/bike/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/fab_instructions-sc.pdf

But find a more suitable person to weld it, maybe post in the frame building section.


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## Manicmtbr (Jan 26, 2004)

No real experience here, but I think aluminum and scandium frames are heat treated after welding, meaning you would have to have the frame heat treated. Sadly, I think you might find the cost of a proper repair to be pretty expensive.


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## verticult (Jan 18, 2005)

Pics?


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## DekerfTeamST (Jul 25, 2008)

Where did you hear Scandium is sensitive to powdercoat? Powdercoating has know effect on it. Also Scandium and Aluminum frames are not heat treated. 

If you're going to take the chance I would take it to a welder not an auto repair guy who can weld. Depending on where the cracks are located you may be SOL. You might be better off having a frame builder replace the tubes but $$$$$$.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Did you not read the earlier posts?*

Here are Easton's own instructions (as posted earlier by Eville):
http://www.eastoncycling.com/bike/wp...uctions-sc.pdf

From Easton:

"Correct Post Weld Aging is absolutely critical!! Failure to do so will result in reduced properties and a susceptibility to Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC). The required post weld age is:
• Step 1: Allow oven temperature to reach 275° F +/-5°F
• Step 2: Insert frame for 5 hours +/- 5 minutes at 275°F+/-5°F
• Step 3: Change oven temperature to 300° F +/- 5° F. Note: Oven must ramp to 300° F in no more than 10 minutes.
• Step 4: 2 hours +/- 5 minutes at 300° F +/- 5°. • Step 5: Remove frame from oven and allow to
cool to ambient without fan assist.
WARNING!!! Failure to conduct the recommended age will lower frame strength and may promote frame cracking, which can cause premature frame failure."

Also:
"Traditional powder coating can not be used on SC7000 frames due to the curing temperatures. Powder coating (or any other thermal process) can only be performed as long as the curing temperature is not higher than 325 degrees and the cure time is less than 30 minutes."

It's ok not to know these things (I didn't) but next time you don't know something about a subject, at least read the material others have posted first, eh?

-Walt



DekerfTeamST said:


> Where did you hear Scandium is sensitive to powdercoat? Powdercoating has know effect on it. Also Scandium and Aluminum frames are not heat treated.
> 
> If you're going to take the chance I would take it to a welder not an auto repair guy who can weld. Depending on where the cracks are located you may be SOL. You might be better off having a frame builder replace the tubes but $$$$$$.


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## pyranha (Aug 7, 2007)

Walt said:


> It's ok not to know these things (I didn't) but next time you don't know something about a subject, at least read the material others have posted first, eh?
> 
> -Walt


+8972365987219


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## DekerfTeamST (Jul 25, 2008)

Walt said:


> Here are Easton's own instructions (as posted earlier by Eville):
> http://www.eastoncycling.com/bike/wp...uctions-sc.pdf
> 
> From Easton:
> ...


Sorry I guess I was misinformed and it was 6:00am when I read it. Not to doubt you but I have a hard time believing that most frame builders are heading to these precautions whether small or large. I'm sure there are some though who put quality first and expense later.


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## mwb (Dec 4, 2007)

DekerfTeamST said:


> Not to doubt you


Its not about doubt. The question was whether or not it needs heat treating or is suitable for powder coating. Easton's specs are clear on the matter. No doubt about it.


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## DekerfTeamST (Jul 25, 2008)

mwb said:


> Its not about doubt. The question was whether or not it needs heat treating or is suitable for powder coating. Easton's specs are clear on the matter. No doubt about it.


Agreed, it's fact per Easton not doubting that. I may have worded my response wrong. I'm just wondering how many frame manufacturers actually follow Easton's spec.'s.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

DekerfTeamST said:


> Agreed, it's fact per Easton not doubting that. I may have worded my response wrong. I'm just wondering how many frame manufacturers actually follow Easton's spec.'s.


I'd guess most. Why invest in the materials, time to miter, time to weld, and then not do it just to end up with the frame back and have to send out a new one? It's not like they do this one frame at a time. They bake dozens I'm sure all in one shot. Wouldn't be nearly the hassle you may think it is.


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## mwb (Dec 4, 2007)

jay_ntwr said:


> I'd guess most. Why invest in the materials, time to miter, time to weld, and then not do it just to end up with the frame back and have to send out a new one? It's not like they do this one frame at a time. They bake dozens I'm sure all in one shot. Wouldn't be nearly the hassle you may think it is.


Exactly. If you're going to go to the trouble of building a manufacturing facility to mass produce frames it'd be silly to skip 1 step of a multi-step process.

Not to mention the warranty issues from cracked frames would put you out of business pretty quick.


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## DekerfTeamST (Jul 25, 2008)

mwb said:


> Exactly. If you're going to go to the trouble of building a manufacturing facility to mass produce frames it'd be silly to skip 1 step of a multi-step process.
> 
> Not to mention the warranty issues from cracked frames would put you out of business pretty quick.


Totally agree. I was thinking more in regards to smaller builders.


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

I would venture to say that every framebuilder or manufacturer that wants to keep valid, affordable liability insurance and turn an actual profit follows Eastons recommendations for heat treating. It doesn't cost that much on a per-frame basis if you send them in batches to fill the oven.

To the OP, I think you have 2 options:
1. Find a framebuilder that could do the repair for you and have it sent in with a batch of their own aluminum frames.
2. Have a "race car welder" guy lay a bead on it and ride it until it breaks (not a matter of 'if' but 'when').

#2 isn't really recommended, but I did have a friend that got some tire rub on a chainstay of a Cannondale and had a race-car guy lay a bead on the section that he had worn through. He rode it for a decent time period after that before it finally broke. A broken chainstay isn't as likely to cause you immediate harm as a sheared head tube or downtube. You just have to determine if you think the risk is worth the savings.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

DekerfTeamST said:


> Sorry I guess I was misinformed and it was 6:00am when I read it. Not to doubt you but I have a hard time believing that most frame builders are heading to these precautions whether small or large. I'm sure there are some though who put quality first and expense later.


It's simpler than that: most frame builders just don't deal with Scandium. More common aluminum alloys do not have the same restrictions


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## SC RockLobster (Jul 22, 2007)

*scandium repair*

Try Paul Sadoff at Rock Lobster cycles. He works with scandium and can give you an idea if its worth repairing vs the amount of money needing to be spent. He does good work.:thumbsup:


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## jerry68 (Aug 23, 2007)

Scott Quiring does scandium, but I am betting that due to the heat treating, repair welding is not an option.


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