# Kidding myself with clipless?



## JCHILLTOPPERS (Dec 5, 2016)

I'm about six months into my xtc hobby - not racing or trying to. I have shimano clipless that I love. I've never had a problem with them trail riding other than the expected new person fail, where my exp'd friends laugh at me as i fall sideways...

The first time i ever rode I was on platforms and as i hit roots etc, i lost footing everywhere...but the pedals were not great, just stock.

I ask this question because I know being clipped in keeps me from taking on some balancing acts or jumps - out of fear. 

I only ride single track trail, but some good ones along the east coast.

Are clipless holding me back? Or will i have less fun with platforms by losing footing?

Thanks for any exp'd answers


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

good platforms with good shoes, and you won't have any problems losing footing.

With really good platforms, you'd probably be fine with any footwear. Right now for winter riding, I'm using plain ol hiking boots on my DMR Vaults and I don't have any trouble losing footing. Had some fun getting some air today on my ride, too.

Is it the right decision for you? Well only you can answer that. I first started using platforms for winter riding years ago. So I could wear regular boots that were comfy and kept my feet warm. I didn't want to buy cycling-specific winter boots for my local conditions, because they MIGHT be used for 2-3mo out of the year. And that's not worth it, IMO. After my first winter on quality platform pedals, I decided to keep them on for a bit and work on developing some skills I realized I had been slacking on after 14 years of using clipless pedals. And I've left the platforms on for the vast majority of my riding. Don't get me wrong, clipless have their place. I still have and use my clipless pedals. I just use them when the benefits of using them suit the ride I'm doing at the time.


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## OldManBiker (Nov 5, 2016)

I ride with flat pedals with 5/10 shoes and I honestly don't miss anything that my riding buddy experiences who has clipless as we ride. With that being said, my LBS tells me time and time again that my entire riding experience would change for the better if and when I go clipless and I guess that's something in time I will discover. But for me it's like having a hard-tail and everyone telling me I GOTTA get a full squish bike. That I'm "missing out big time" if I don't. Well, my answer is how can I miss something I have never had! lol. 

In all seriousness, I think as we all grow and progress in biking that clipless will benefit a person much more than just the common footing issues that flat pedals present when you hit a rough patch or something. I for one wouldn't rush it. Let it come naturally when you are at that point in your experience.


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## ericridebike (Nov 23, 2016)

I've ridden clipless for years and am pretty comfortable with them. I've recently given platforms a try and I'm really enjoying them so far. I haven't noticed any real downside to them. I like the advantage of being able to get out without any delay since moving to AZ with a lot more rocky tech areas than I have been used to. The biggest thing if you go platform is to get something decent that has metal pins for traction and a some shoes that will work good with them. I started with a cheap pair off Amazon with some cheapo bmx/skate type shoes to see if I liked them. Now ready to spend some money on a better quality pedal and some Five Ten shoes. 

Give both platforms and clipless a try and use what works for you and where you ride. Don't let bike shop guys or anyone else pressure you into something you aren't comfortable with. Either type of pedal will require some time/practice to master, so don't get discouraged and give up too soon.


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## JCHILLTOPPERS (Dec 5, 2016)

this forum has been such a great place for a number of my questions.

Even after just these three responses, i need to get some platforms and try them, try the clipless, try the platforms, and as I grow, do what's right for the trail I'm riding.

I have a nice pair of 5/10 shoes already, I guess now is, what is the right pedal.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I recently switched to platforms after 10 years of clipless. Took me a few rides to get used to them but now I barely notice. And I switched largely for the reason you mentioned. I was going to take my 26er out today which still has clipless, I haven't ridden it since I switched so that would have been interesting. But I had just thoroughly cleaned the chain only to discover my chain lube had all leaked out.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

I ride both ^^ 3+years into my mtb'ing experience...

Depends on type of trail & riding purpose, to what I'll wear.

Really technical or steep & on go the flats...

Raceday or trying to keep up w/ my whippet riding budz & on go the clips.

Just out cruising? 50/50...

Both have pro's & con's 

Sent from my kltedv using Tapatalk


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

I have no issues at ALL with clipless. 

There was one downhill day I did in 2015, where I wish I didn't have the clipless, but other than that, good clipless pedals are not a hindrance in my opinion. 

The ONLY reason I mentioned about the clipless on downhill day, was I hit a root pretty solidly, and kicked the rear of the bike hard. My left foot clipped out, and I was riding on very steep and technical terrain with one foot just grinding on a tiny metal platform! I had about zero control, but eventually got clipped back in. 

I just know clipping out and such is purely second nature to me.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Honestly, if you're fairly new to the sport, the best thing you could do for yourself to learn good technique is to buy a good set of flats and shoes, there's no cheating on technique when you're on flats. I'd also go visit the Ryan Leech site and maybe sign up for the monthly thing and use his excellent tutorials to learn about manuals, wheelies, bunny hops, balance and even his flat pedal challenge.

As to not being confident to hit things on the clipless pedals, that's just being new to it, it definitely doesn't hold me back, actually gives me confidence for the exact reasons you state, then again I'm mainly a wheels on the ground or not very high type guy. I will admit though that I have put a set of flats on my HT and am doing the Ryan Leech flat pedal challenge to try and learn better technique as I went to clipless almost immediately after starting riding MTBs and to maybe gain a bit of confidence from having good technique to start trying some air time.


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## system_weight (May 15, 2016)

I have been riding SPD for years on XC Bike, Fully and in the Spinning class as well.

I feel that I can rotate the pedals in a more steady fashion by pushing down and pulling up at the same time. (Also this should activate my upper thighs better.)
Having said that, I am surprised about some of the above comments stating that after some time, there is virtually no difference.

However there are situations where I am scared I could not get out of my clickies fast enough. So for my next Trail-Bike, I am also choosing platform pedals for that reason. I am really curious, how they will work for me...


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## JCHILLTOPPERS (Dec 5, 2016)

So after reading all the above, I'm gonna pick up a platform set today. for conveninece reasons, I'll probably go with raceface, either Chester's at 50 or Atlas at 150. 

With the Chesters 100 less, I'm leaning that way as I see a lot of good reviews on them - unless someone more seasoned suggests otherwise.

I found mtb at 38 years of age, can't say how much the culture and lifestyle has changed my life.

Thanks all -


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

FYI, there are a couple of Shimano two-sided pedals out there:
















I can't speak to the suitability of the platform side, but pedals of this type would allow mid-ride, even mid-obstacle switching if you desire. I don't see this as a long-term solution, but certainly as a training/confidence tool.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

those Shimano dual-sided pedals have NO grip. there are useful on a commuter bike that is occasionally ridden in sneakers or cycling shoes on different days, that's how I used them for a while. I would not trust my shoe to stay put on those small, dull platforms on trails. either get clipless or get some grippy platforms. the pedals above are not going to be a worthwhile compromise.


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## jimbowho (Dec 16, 2009)

If you're not sure you're going to stick with platforms maybe think about old school Bear Trap Pedals. They are everywhere for 20 bucks.
Are you in the hilltoppers MC?


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## system_weight (May 15, 2016)

phlegm said:


> I can't speak to the suitability of the platform side, but pedals of this type would allow mid-ride, even mid-obstacle switching if you desire. I don't see this as a long-term solution, but certainly as a training/confidence tool.


I had a paid of those (the upper ones).
Did not work for me, as the checking which side is up when starting, is awkward. You cannot do that blindly, so there goes your new-won confidence.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

mack_turtle said:


> those Shimano dual-sided pedals have NO grip. there are useful on a commuter bike that is occasionally ridden in sneakers or cycling shoes on different days, that's how I used them for a while. I would not trust my shoe to stay put on those small, dull platforms on trails. either get clipless or get some grippy platforms. the pedals above are not going to be a worthwhile compromise.


I agree - posted the first couple of pics I found. There are other designs with pins:









Aside from the grip concerns, I would warn that it can become a crutch. A woman in my wife's riding group has similar pedals (no idea which brand/model) and has been flipping to the flat side in advance of obstacles for years now. Ultimately you never fully commit to either style, which isn't helpful.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Rode clipless for 20+ years and went to platforms a year ago. It was a steep learning curve but it allowed me to try and learn more technical trials type stuff that had me getting hurt with clipless. At some point and for some rides, I wouldn't hesitate to go clipless, but for now I'm enjoying flats.


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## Troutinco (Jan 29, 2012)

Never tried clipless and pretty sure I never will at this point. Even my road bike has mtb flats on it. 5.10 and spank spikes have not done me wrong yet.


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## MiWolverine (Jun 15, 2009)

I switched to flats last year after being a clipless pedal user since the early 90s. It was quite a learning curve for me. I do have many more pedal strikes and still want to "clip out" of my pedals. One thing I do like, I can place my foot in a more natural position. There was never enough toe out with clipless, though, I did get along well enough.

I don't like to spend a lot on pedals/shoes, and try to stay under $100 for both. That said, I tend to look for deals on them. When trying out flats for the first time, knowing I may not like it, I wanted to get into them as cheap as possible. I did that for $70 with some Shimano Saints flats and Adidas Terrex Solo shoes. Knowing that I am now sticking to flats, I recently picked up some Adidas Terrex Trail Cross SLs for fairly cheap (thanks to this thread). The Trail Cross is a more proper cycling shoe, but the Solos are still working out just fine.


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

I like clipless for road and smooth XC stuff. Chunky stuff, I'd rather have my platforms. Performance wise, they are both about equal. What holds me back on the chunky stuff usually is not speed, so from a traction standpoint, my feet stay attached to the pedal just as well with pinned platform and good shoes as they do with clipless. For wide open straight shots and long hill climbs, clipless are more efficient.

For pedals, never get bear traps or those dual sided pedals if you really want to use platform pedals on mountain bike trails. They are made for simple low grip pedaling. I have both on bikes, and they work great going to the playground with my kids or riding to the store. For trails, death traps to the shins. Your feet will slide off.

Get the raceface chesters or there are origin8 ultim8 pedals that are about the same price. These use larger diameter pins. There are also some VP brand pedals that use smaller diameter pins. They are all good, just ask your LBS about which will work better with your shoes. IMO, I prefer the smaller diameter metal pins. If they hit your shin though, you will know it. Only happened once during a wreck, and I'm glad I was using platform vs. clipless. Auto-pilot with clipless only works so well when you're already 75% into a wreck before you know what's happening. Bike goes one way, you go the other, and your ankle tries to go both. Took me off a bike for about 2 months, and I still have pain 3 years later.


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## JCHILLTOPPERS (Dec 5, 2016)

Joliet Catholic Hilltoppers

MC is Mount Carmel Caravan - our high school rival.

I can't give up my high school football memories - check tape.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

I'd also definitely recommend staying away from those 2 sided pedals, you never get the side you want, when you want it and have to be looking down to get the side you want and as said, if it's one of the Shimano the flat side has zero grip. Also as said, you never really build your technique and confidence with one particular style of pedal, so worst of both worlds.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

You tried platform pedals and got bounced around when going over rocks and roots.

What you needed was the right technique. It's called 'low heels'. If you get off the seat and tilt your heals down in back at a 45* when you're going through rocks, etc. you will need to be scraped off instead of being bounced up if the pedal is horizontal. You need shoes with some tread like running shoes and any pedals with pins over the surface. Short rounded or thicker stubby pins work fine with trail running or running shoes you already have. And they don't tear up your shins. Longer sharp pins are used for DH speeds and big jumps. They need 5.10 shoes with special soles that the pins don't chop up.

Here's the technique video.


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## jimbowho (Dec 16, 2009)

JCHILLTOPPERS said:


> Joliet Catholic Hilltoppers
> 
> MC is Mount Carmel Caravan - our high school rival.
> 
> I can't give up my high school football memories - check tape.


There is a hilltoppers MC desert racing Club here where I'm at.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

I have been on clipless for years. I did try platforms on one bike for a while. I did not like it for a number of reasons and the benefits did not really help my and my riding style. What I gained in confidence in certain situations about being able to put a foot down I lost in being able maneuver the bike other situations. So for me it was net loss. That was not even to being up pedal efficiency with stiff sole shoe. 

That said some really like platforms and that is ok.


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## Golddr2000 (May 4, 2004)

Just get the multi release cleats for the Shimano pedals and tighten the pedals . They are great and easy to get in and out in any situation

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


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## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

Good pedals and 5.10's wont do anything if your feet are bouncing off the pedals during climbs. An overlooked aspect of riding flats is making sure you are in the right gear so you are able to keep weight on the pedal, if you are trying to climb rocks in the granny gear your feet are going to fly off no matter what pedals you have. 

When I started out I was always in too low of a gear and my feet bounced off constantly, once I figured out the right gear for a climb it hasnt been a problem at all, when its smooth I stick with an easy gear but when it gets rocky I always shift to a harder gear. Its all about keeping weight on the pedal.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Five-tens on spiky shoes grip like a bad habit. Yes, you can still come off them but I like the freedom of being able to put a foot down any time. I will attack things that would worry me stupid when clipped in. 

Both are good in different ways and for different things. You really should try both but you need to stick with each until you get comfortable.


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## JCHILLTOPPERS (Dec 5, 2016)

Got sets of Chesters today. Thanks to everyone who wrote in. you guys do make this confusing world easier for us late bloomers.

I'll write back about how I feel on them next time I get out. I have a nice pair of 5.10's so should be set. Now, just need skills...


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

..and don't give up on the clipless. Everything you described initially is normal, and just gets better with practice, and maybe some tension adjustment.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

I rode clipless for years because at the time that what mountain bikes do around here. I grew up BMXing and could bunny hop among other things really well.

When a bike park opened around here I bought some good flats to use there. I put on ahead of time to get used to them.

What I personally found was that clipless lets you be lazy about bike skills since your foot is attached. Something like a bunny hop that was all technique before can be 'cheated' with your foot attached. 

I was surprised how much technique I'd lost. With proper flats and good shoes I don't find I've lost anything to clipless- actually it's a gain since I'm now rebuilding skills I had lost.

I wish I had never gone clipless.


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

Stick with flats for a year or so, watch some technique videos and practice. You can go back to clipless later and it will feel like cheating. But conquering flat pedal technique is a skill you absolutely need in order to advance to more technical riding. 

Tip: if you can't allready, learn how to bunnyhop on flats.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

TwoTone said:


> I grew up BMXing and could bunny hop among other things really well.


What other things could you bunny-hop among? Bunny-hopping among the daisies wouldn't be very impressive, but if you could bunny-hop among upward-facing knives, hat's off.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Clipless lets me be "lazy" with the bike...but does it really matter since I pretty much ride clipless all the time? Only time I'll switch to flats is at the bike park. It usually takes a couple of runs for me to adjust.

Clipless pedals aren't something to be feared. It does have a learning curve to it. For most beginners it's mostly mental than anything else.

The double sided pedals usually combine the worst parts of both pedal systems.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

I am a bit backwards. I ride flats on the road and clipless on the trails, at least in the summer. In the winter, I ride flats on all my bikes. My trainer bike typically has flats on it too. I think flats are better to learn and practice on, whether its technical stuff or spinning technique. I find when I put clipless back on my bike in the Spring, I can push even harder than before.


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## system_weight (May 15, 2016)

Related question:

Are Platform pedals OK with carbon cranks?
Or will I shred my SRAM X1 carbon cranks when using non-clipless?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

system_weight said:


> Related question:
> 
> Are Platform pedals OK with carbon cranks?
> Or will I shred my SRAM X1 carbon cranks when using non-clipless?


Why would that make a difference?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

system_weight said:


> Related question:
> 
> Are Platform pedals OK with carbon cranks?
> Or will I shred my SRAM X1 carbon cranks when using non-clipless?


The only way I could see any possibility of an issue would be from rubbing your shoes against your cranks. The first time I rode with 510s, which are wide, I kept hearing this awful squeaking noise and realized my shoes were set in too far on the pedals and thus rubbing the cranks. The second time I rode, it was no longer an issue.


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## 779334 (Oct 10, 2014)

I ride flats 100% of the time. Don't even wanna think about clipless.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

system_weight said:


> Related question:
> 
> Are Platform pedals OK with carbon cranks?
> Or will I shred my SRAM X1 carbon cranks when using non-clipless?


Like a few others, I'm confused by the question.

If anything, being clipped-in (via clipless - ha!) could start to apply a rub mark on the cranks. I would expect more variance in foot position on platforms to mostly eliminate that.

Alternatively, if you're overthinking it like me, and suspect the generally wider platform pedal could potentially generate more force at the female thread embedded into the carbon crank arm and crack it, then maybe. (Sorry for the horrible sentence.)


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## system_weight (May 15, 2016)

Thank you all for the confirmation that platform pedals will not ruin the cranks. I was asking because SRAM has glued a sticker on the crank stating that clipless or other foot retaining must be used. 


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk


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## HPIguy (Sep 16, 2014)

I switched over to flats a few years ago after having a stupid low speed get off that resulted in my falling about 8 feet down a bank, and hyper extending my wrist. I didn't even think I was clipped in, as I never heard the familiar snick of the cleat locking in. It took a bit to re-learn how to ride flats, they'll show any flaws in technique in short order. But good flats and five ten shoes give up very little to being clipped in. And I've cleaned much more technical trails on flats than I ever did clipped in. But, like most things bike related, it's all personal preference.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

system_weight said:


> Thank you all for the confirmation that platform pedals will not ruin the cranks. I was asking because SRAM has glued a sticker on the crank stating that clipless or other foot retaining must be used.
> 
> Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk


...actually that has me very curious. I've looked through a few .PDFs on the SRAM site, but so far couldn't find any warnings re pedal type, but would love to know more if anyone has background on that sticker/warning.


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## system_weight (May 15, 2016)

phlegm said:


> ...actually that has me very curious. I've looked through a few .PDFs on the SRAM site, but so far couldn't find any warnings re pedal type, but would love to know more if anyone has background on that sticker/warning.


Neither was I able to find any comment about this.
Just the sticker.
Maybe it was put there by Trek?

Reason could be that shoes may scratch the Carbon crank when placed too far inside.

BTW: this is a X1 carbon crank, which does not exist in SRAMs product pages...


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

system_weight said:


> I was asking because SRAM has glued a sticker on the crank stating that clipless or other foot retaining must be used.
> 
> Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk


I have seen that same sticker on bikes before and laughed at it. It was on a Giant, IIRC, so definitely not a Trek thing. It's also not a carbon crank thing, because crank I saw it on was aluminum.

I'm not entirely sure where that warning is coming from. On first thought, it might be related to the fact that so many bikes are shipped with those cheap plastic pedals. Or that many shops put cheap plastic pedals on the ones that don't include pedals for test rides. It might be related to the fact that those pedals provide no way to secure your feet on bumpy terrain. I certainly didn't know better as a beginner, and it was one component of a crash I had when I was a noob. I ended up doing quite a superman that I wasn't prepared for.

The warning is also vague enough that pinned platforms MIGHT qualify as a retention device, but then again, they might not. It's hard to say. But the warning also doesn't say the WHY of it, which I think is the more important issue.

I've noticed that the people with the most-scuffed cranks tend to have clipless pedals installed. I know when I was using clipless, my cranks got VERY scuffed. But now that I'm on platforms, I have zero shoe-related scuffing on my cranks. So the reason for the sticker is definitely not that.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

That warning sticker must be some sort of lawyer-speak.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

I switched from clipless to flats on my mountain bike about 2 years ago. I won't be going back to clipless. With good pedals and 5.10 shoes your feet will stick almost as well as a clipless setup. With the added benefit of putting your foot wherever you want and putting your foot out without having to unclip.

I do ride clipless on my road bike which I got into a year ago. Just for fun I put clipless VS flats to the test on a 10 mile time trial course. Terrain had steep punchy hills for standing and mashing along with flat sections to spin at high cadence. There was no statsictial difference in performance between the two. Which has been backed up by other tests you can find online.

A lot of people using clipless seem to think they get power out of pulling up on the pedals upswing. Reality is your leg muscles aren't designed to work effectively pulling upward (think about how your legs work for a moment). So you aren't generating any extra power; you simply feel the strain of your muscles working in the wrong direction.

If you like the feel of being clipped in, side to side float and cheating bunny hops then enjoy your clipless setup. If you enjoy the freedom and flexibility of platforms then ride platforms.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Fajita Dave said:


> With the added benefit of putting your foot wherever you want and putting your foot out without having to unclip.


But that's cheating! 

And pulling up with clipless works for me, especially on short punchy climbs.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Yeah, if dabbing is your thing, then flats are for you. :thumbsup:


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> And pulling up with clipless works for me, especially on short punchy climbs.


You'd be very surprised . Strap some weight to your foot and see how much you can lift up with your leg following about the same angle/path as you would be on the bike. Now find a weight machine to do a leg press (with a single leg). You'll probably be able to press about four times more weight than you can lift upward despite feeling the same exertion level.

Sure this does mean you can produce some power by pulling up. However it's using smaller, weaker muscle groups which will get tired quicker. You will be just as productive by simply focusing on the down stroke or possibly even stronger.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

s0ckeyeus said:


> Yeah, if dabbing is your thing, then flats are for you.


If you prefer a Yard Sale, clipless :FTW: 

Sent from my kltedv using Tapatalk


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## JCHILLTOPPERS (Dec 5, 2016)

thanks. Now I just need the weather to cooperate so I can get out and ride.

just went tubeless with my tires, too. I don't want to hijack my own thread though.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Fajita Dave said:


> You'd be very surprised


 Like I said, works for me.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Fajita Dave said:


> You'll probably be able to press about four times more weight than you can lift upward despite feeling the same exertion level.
> 
> Sure this does mean you can produce some power by pulling up. However it's using smaller, weaker muscle groups which will get tired quicker.


Until those muscles that do the down stroke get tired.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Fajita Dave said:


> You'd be very surprised . Strap some weight to your foot and see how much you can lift up with your leg following about the same angle/path as you would be on the bike. Now find a weight machine to do a leg press (with a single leg). You'll probably be able to press about four times more weight than you can lift upward despite feeling the same exertion level.
> 
> Sure this does mean you can produce some power by pulling up. However it's using smaller, weaker muscle groups which will get tired quicker. You will be just as productive by simply focusing on the down stroke or possibly even stronger.


I agree the upstroke thing is overblown, although it can come in handy every once in a while. For me, clipless pedals are more useful when pedaling over rough terrain like roots or a rock garden. It's just easier to keep engaged and pedaling. On flats, I'd have to be a bit more mindful to keep my feet planted on the pedals.

I don't really care what people use. Both types of pedals have their advantages and disadvantages. I don't think everyone needs to run clipless, but I do think that everyone needs to know how to run flats. If you can pedal well and negotiate terrain on flats, you'll be better off in the long run, even if you choose to ride clipless.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

I use the clipless for a few reasons. One is the stiff sole on shoes mean better power transfer to the pedals. There is very little wasted energy in compression or flex of the shoe. Another is control on rocky bits of trail. Never have to worry about getting tossed off the pedals. The other is something I have come to appreciate more as I started to singlespeed. When I am riding through rocky climbs it will be maneuvering the bike through the pedals. This means I am using the pedals get the bike to shift and move around. Sometimes that means pulling up on the pedals in fact. Strange because I don't even realize I am doing it, but when I worn cleats I found the foot popping our ever so often. Being locked in to pedals I can shift weight and do a lot on the pedals to make the bike move around. Now maybe some can do this on flats, but for me on clipless I works well. Plus spinning at very high cadence like you do on a singlespeed is much easier not getting your feel thrown off. There are also cases when you have make power moves and being able to pull up on the pedals is just enough to clear something. 

All that said it has taken me years to get comfortable with being able to release quickly from the pedals. "not being able to unclip" crashes are rare these days, but when I was learning it was pretty comical. Flats do give you confidence to easily put a foot down, but with practice clipless are not far behind.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

w/ proper technique and weight distribution (flats) your feet won't pop off the pedals going through rock gardens ^^

Rode one of the chunderiest (copyrighted) descents yesterday that I've ridden in a long time on my flats + 5-10's. Not once did a foot wander.

It's a myth perpetuated by seat huggin' Fred's.

Sent from my kltedv using Tapatalk


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Fajita Dave said:


> You'd be very surprised . Strap some weight to your foot and see how much you can lift up with your leg following about the same angle/path as you would be on the bike. Now find a weight machine to do a leg press (with a single leg). You'll probably be able to press about four times more weight than you can lift upward despite feeling the same exertion level.
> 
> Sure this does mean you can produce some power by pulling up. However it's using smaller, weaker muscle groups which will get tired quicker. You will be just as productive by simply focusing on the down stroke or possibly even stronger.


This is not at all true.

Since when are your hamstrings a weak muscle group? Even if overall power output is similar between clipless, the delivery of said average power comes at a smoother distribution which is important for traction and hard acceleration.

If you arent getting power benefit out of it, it is most likely because you have over developed quads as scompared to the back of your leg. Spin circles for a few months and watch what happens. You will learn to spin the bike up to the mid 20s while seated using less energy as standing and mashing with all of your weight. Not to mention that that you just used different muscle groups, so you can alternate position as fatigue sets in.

Sure you will develop some of the minor muscle groups including some of your hip flexor and even abdominal/oblique.

For those of you who will never race, this isnt much of an issue, Mash away.

For those of you who have ever gotten caught in too big of a gear just before the top of a punchy or technical climb, be prepared to be dismount while the person clipped in is going to push/pull around you. Again, none of this matters if you are not racing and you dont mind/ or like to dab on rides. Some of us dont.

Learn skills on platforms, take those skills to train race and ride on clipless. Or do what makes you feel good.


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

On pedalling efficiency, I haven't noticed much of a difference between the two systems. If clipless has an advantage, it's due to my Sidi shoes's stiff soles. However, I got a new pair of flats and the platforms are huge, so even my soft skate shoes are very well supported. 

It's on slow, tech climbs or bumpy descends where I appreciate clipping in (ht rider). Currently on flats though, and now that I'm used to them again there's not much of a difference. 

While pedalling I pretend I'm clipped in, I find it helps.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

FJSnoozer said:


> This is not at all true.
> 
> Since when are your hamstrings a weak muscle group? Even if overall power output is similar between clipless, the delivery of said average power comes at a smoother distribution which is important for traction and hard acceleration.
> 
> ...


The ham strings are a huge and very strong muscle group for pushing down and back. Which is why focusing on the down stroke and pulling through the bottom is much more productive than pulling up. The quads and ham strings work together for the down stroke. Pulling up mostly uses the hip flexors and groin muscles. Studies have also shown that pulling up on the bicycle pedal stroke increases your chances of a repetitive motion injury again because human legs aren't designed to pull up under load.

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. I still use clipless on my road bike and it does seem to let me adjust to using a few different muscle groups. Something I had a hard time replicating when I tried flats on my road bike. Spinning circles is a very efficient pedal stroke but it's also the right practice with flats at higher cadence.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

I think those are the biggest benefits. Spreading out the effort on muscle groups, especially if you are not the best at spinning circles subconsciously.


Pulling up under load while being seated, I agree with you is hard on the knee joints and offers limited if any benefit in power benefit. I can feel the tension pulling apart my joints which would normally stay compressed. 


I have also read a lot of the "tests" out there which are very static road efforts up a long hill. 

What I and others are talking about is the extreme 2-10 second high wattage outputs where you are in front of the saddle, pushing a big gear near the top of a hill. In this position, pulling up is significantly engaging the hams and glutes for the back sweep and pull. 

That's the type of testing I would like to see. Well, I dont need to see it because I ride it and our terrain reward those who can ride this way. 

Being able to alternate between this position and a seated high cadence spin has allowed me to survive some grueling steep (10%+ average road climbs on an MTB in some endurance event. Its not the best technique, but its mine. and its faster than just spinning for me. YMMV


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

If you find you can't pedal in circles with pinned, platform pedals, you're doing it wrong.

It's different than doing so in clipless pedals, true. But if you can't do it on platforms, you need to work on your technique.


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## JCHILLTOPPERS (Dec 5, 2016)

UPDATE***

So I bought two sets of flats, both chesters; one set for my hybrid commuter and another for my hardtail.

I also have a pair of nice 5/10s.

Ok, so the update is, i've only used the flats with the 5/10s on my hybrid. It's been too cold for this nor'eastern newbie to hit the trails.

That said, there is a very noticeable difference with the chesters and 5/10s. It's actually amazing. There are times where you could tell me i am clipless and I'd believe you. It's rad. Am i allowed to say that as a new guy?

It looks like i am hitting Fountain Head this week. It's a great trail system. I'll go flats on it for the first time, and can't wait to see the difference compared to last season.

I'll right then, too. For anyone who felt a little insecure clipped in, like i did, I strongly recommend the chesters! That said, I will not be giving up clipless. Just trying new things.

Thanks to everyone so far.


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## OldGringo (Oct 2, 2015)

JCHILLTOPPERS said:


> Ok, so the update is, i've only used the flats with the 5/10s on my hybrid. It's been too cold for this nor'eastern newbie to hit the trails.


Congrats...you have a great setup with the Chesters & 5-10s. Heels down when climbing & you'll stay glued and be able to spin just like if you were clipped in.


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## SpartyinWI (Jun 24, 2016)

Just put some Raceface chester flats on my new plus bike. Also bought real MTB shoes for the first time, 5/10 freeriders. Have not been out for a ride yet due to living in Wisconsin.


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## OldGringo (Oct 2, 2015)

SpartyinWI said:


> Have not been out for a ride yet due to living in Wisconsin.


I hear ya on that. I'm just north of MKE & everything is mush...& looks like it will be for a while with a week of rain in the forecast.


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## SpartyinWI (Jun 24, 2016)

OldGringo said:


> I hear ya on that. I'm just north of MKE & everything is mush...& looks like it will be for a while with a week of rain in the forecast.


Yup, then it will be at least 3 weeks until they open Kettle Moraine/John Muir


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## OldGringo (Oct 2, 2015)

SpartyinWI said:


> Yup, then it will be at least 3 weeks until they open Kettle Moraine/John Muir


Right...I'm staring at my new Yeti every day...may have to road trip it down to Brown County IN one weekend.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Golddr2000 said:


> Just get the multi release cleats for the Shimano pedals and tighten the pedals . They are great and easy to get in and out in any situation
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


Old post, but this can't be emphasized enough. Had a few friends go through many falls / crashes locked into Shimano pedals. In some cases just pulling up to stop, lol. Multi-directional cleats solved the problem.


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## mattsmc43 (Feb 6, 2004)

Just browsing around.... thought ideget some replies on this thought. Coming back to riding after some serious time off the bike. I ride on the north shore of MA primarily and I decided to give flats a try this year after riding with spd's for years. Have a set of chesters with 5.10's and I like the set up. 

It's only been a few weeks on them, and I don't notice any huge advantages or disadvantages. Certainly my feel stay planted on the pedals with the occasional pedal strike or foot bouncing when crying though some root sections or rock gardens. I think thos have come less frequently as I get more used to them.

My concern I'm thinking about now after my last ride, is that the benefit of being able to hop off or use a foot to dab in certain sections might give confidence in certain sections, but I am also noticing that this too can be a crutch. Too often I find myself taking a foot off on some technical sections or climbs that i believe if I were clipped in, I would push myself a bit harder to keep pedaling (if for no other reason than I know I'm clipped in and it's keep spinning to get through this section, or have fun falling over). 

Maybe it's all just personal preference, and some of this is psychological. I'm going to keep riding the flats for a while this season, but I do sometimes wonder how much I'm benefiting... maybe I'll play around with both, but I don't want to go back to clipless yet.


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## legopro87 (Nov 6, 2016)

Seth's Bike Hacks on Youtube does a great 5min video on clipless vs platform. Here's a link 




I agree whats said in the video. Both peddles have there uses and learning to ride well with both will make you a better rider. For me, learning to ride with clipless helped me spin better and gain a bit more confidence through tuff climbs. But I also ride with platforms often through the city or on my FS bike. This helped me gain some trials riding skills. For now I stick mostly with clipless because I ride a singlespeed thats geared a bit high. Having the added benefit of pushing down with one leg and pulling up with another is the only way I can ride with my current gearing and still make it up a steep hill.


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## sgtrobo (Aug 19, 2014)

I had the identical problem when I started out about 2 years ago. With flats and shoes, my feet slid everywhere. With clips, I was hesitant to try a few things for fear of getting stuck trying to bail out.

A pair of Five-Ten shoes with Specialized Bennies flat platform pedals, and it's almost like being clipped in they hold you so well. The other thing I learned was, when doing drops or hitting air, to slide my feet back just a tad so that my heels were back a bit, and my toes pointed a bit higher than my heels. That put the weight back just slightly onto my heels and helped me "grip" the pedals much better.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

sgtrobo said:


> I had the identical problem when I started out about 2 years ago. With flats and shoes, my feet slid everywhere. With clips, I was hesitant to try a few things for fear of getting stuck trying to bail out.
> 
> A pair of Five-Ten shoes with Specialized Bennies flat platform pedals, and it's almost like being clipped in they hold you so well. The other thing I learned was, when doing drops or hitting air, to slide my feet back just a tad so that my heels were back a bit, and my toes pointed a bit higher than my heels. That put the weight back just slightly onto my heels and helped me "grip" the pedals much better.


it's a simple saying, heels down.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Rode clipless for my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years, got really confident and good with them.
Riding on a good set of flats with really good shoes made for flats for a year now..

Having a blast, most likely will not clip back In, to damn much fun to Dab and Stab a foot when the need arises..
The freedom, Love It..

Hard steep climbs on flats,, not able to pull up,,, I notice no loss of power at all.
I do notice I will push one more pedal revolution without fear of not being able to get free of the pedal. And this often results In me making It over the top.

I often wear these Specialized 2FO Flat out shoes to work,, they are really that comfortable, and are wearing like Iron~~
View attachment 1136004

And yeah I changed the laces.







View attachment 1136000


I still keep these on my Gravel bike:


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## JCHILLTOPPERS (Dec 5, 2016)

5 June Update+++++++++

Alright, finally a few rides with my chester flats and 5/10 shoes.

Seems to me, most of the advice i received here was spot on. As a new rider last year, and until only recently riding all clipless, here are some things I can say:

1. I went to flats because there are a few things I frankly did not have the courage to try while rolling clipless that I thought i might with flats. I was right. I hit some bigger jumps and have ridden some balance beams. For building confidence, as a newb, i suggest flats with a good pair of shoes.

2. Because of my poor technique, on some uphills while clipless, i'd spin a tire, lose momentum, then just fall to the side, pitifully and dumb looking in slow-motion, because instead of trying to get out of the pedal i was trying to push forward. There I would lie, in the dirt...but at least still "on" my bike . With flats, I have not had this problem a single time. As a matter of fact, as far as climbing power i have not noticed a difference. 

3. Well, there have certainly been times i really wished I was clipless in the last few weeks, too. For example, I can't tell you how many times my feet have just been completely out of position on the pedals. Not too much damage, but certainly a loss of momentum.

4. Did i say that the spikes in flats really hurt when they connect with your shins? If not: Spikes in pedals really hurt when they connect with your shins.

5. So i rode with an old pro this past weekend. This awesome old school dude, who btw, at 59 just crushes it, raced on Fisher's team, and won a few big time races. We met a few months back after i bought my like new pivot mach 6 carbon from him. I needed a new bike after mine was stolen. Here is how you know the MTB community is awesome: When he learned i was buying a new bike because mine was stolen, he said to me, hey, i know there is a negotiating price, and this is what i was asking, but just knock of x amount of dollars. You deserve a bike....Yeah, good people.

In any case, at 5'9" 170, i was riding tubeless at 30/27 front/back. He said, we are coming down from that. He put me at 22 psi on both. At this psi, i loved riding the tech sections; however, on flat gravely parts, i was out of my league. I did not have the exp, technique, or strength to keep up. While i wrote above i did not notice a difference climbing due to the flats, ironically, to this novice, the difference was huge on straight flats.

Conclusion: I think any new rider really into the sport should get a nice pair of SPD's and a set of chesters and 5/10s (strongly recommend this combo, esp the chesters). Try them both, and keep using both. 

I've already learned a lot about pedalling from the flats...and in that, there is a lot of value to me, but i think that is a different topic.

Hope this helped someone.


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## sgtrobo (Aug 19, 2014)

JCHILLTOPPERS said:


> 5 June Update+++++++++
> 
> 1. I went to flats because there are a few things I did not have the courage to try while rolling clipless that I thought i might with flats. I hit some bigger jumps and have ridden some balance beams.
> 
> ...


good stuff my man. I got back into riding about 3 years ago and I pretty much experienced the exact same things. Started with flats but they were crappy flats with just whatever athletic shoes I owned, and my feet were all over. Didn't understand the "heels down" concept, and was always on the balls of my feet (which meant my feet came off constantly through any bumps).

then went clipless and had fun dealing with getting stuck

then back to flats

then back to clipless

I still notice a substantial improvement in my pedaling while clipless, until I get to the super techy climbing sections with roots and such where clipless *should* benefit me the most, but I unclip a few pedal strokes early just because I don't trust myself.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

system_weight said:


> Thank you all for the confirmation that platform pedals will not ruin the cranks. I was asking because SRAM has glued a sticker on the crank stating that clipless or other foot retaining must be used.
> 
> Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk


This is MOST likely because your average person has a "duck" stance, rides toed out and gets heel rub on their crank. This CAN weaken the crank and shave the CF over time causing the crank to fail.

I am a neutral stance rider riding clipless and I managed to rip the plug out of the XO crank with mt XTR pedals. I one pedaled it for a mile to the finish line. I discovered the cases of failure due to heel rub when searching for other cases of cranks failing like mine did. I chock mine up to beating the ends down in the rock and too much powah!


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## Oscello (Sep 29, 2016)

Funn Mamba One Side Clip MTB Pedals | Chain Reaction Cycles









Another good looking option for the dual purpose pedals.

I currently have clipless pedal on my XC bike. The local terrain is pretty mild and I have not had any issues. I have been thinking about these pedals because I don't like to clip in just to take a spin around the neighborhood with my wife and daughter.


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## garcia (Apr 10, 2008)

Waaaaaay late to this, but I did switch from clipless to flats after almost 10 years on clips only. Definitely prefer flats off road, however both certainly work. Spank Oozy pedals FTW.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Oscello said:


> Funn Mamba One Side Clip MTB Pedals | Chain Reaction Cycles
> 
> View attachment 1140872
> 
> ...


One sided pedals pretty much suck.


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## Oscello (Sep 29, 2016)

"pretty much" .......so you are telling me there is a chance that some are ok?


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## BPearlman (Feb 1, 2017)

Instead of dropping +$100 on those SPD/Flat combo pedals, just find a cheap pair of RF Chesters for less than half the price. 

+1 to the OP's Chester/5-10 combo. I've been rolling with that for the past couple of years and after a few initial pedal strikes to the shins (ouch!) I've gotten a much better technique down and haven't had any issues with feet coming off the pedals at all recently. I've also found myself surpassing some friends who ride clipless in regards to technique and confidence, however I've got quite a ways to go there. There's certainly no hiding bad technique with flats - whatever bad technique you've got gets exposed pretty quickly.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Oscello said:


> "pretty much" .......so you are telling me there is a chance that some are ok?


Well played :thumbsup:


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

once you get used to clipless, it's hard to go back. I have grippy shoes and spikey pedals and rode in them for the first time in a long while just today. terrifying! my feet felt like I was riding on butter. the shoes and pedals do stick, but coming from being clipped in, it's a totally different feeling. it was a humbling and confidence-sucking experience. I am willing to ride like this a few more times to try to adapt, but it's going to be a long, hard road.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

mack_turtle said:


> once you get used to clipless, it's hard to go back. I have grippy shoes and spikey pedals and rode in them for the first time in a long while just today. terrifying! my feet felt like I was riding on butter. the shoes and pedals do stick, but coming from being clipped in, it's a totally different feeling. it was a humbling and confidence-sucking experience. I am willing to ride like this a few more times to try to adapt, but it's going to be a long, hard road.


With my 5-10s and Crampons, I have to lift my foot to reposition them.

The only issue I had was in rocky rooty sections when getting bounced around. That was only from poor technique because I had gotten used to being able to keep my foot level while clipped in. Now that I've gotten used to heels down it's not a problem anymore.


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

you really want both.
clipless for racing or going for PR times on strava. 
flats for messing around and pushing technical skills. 
You'll get fast at changing pedals once you've done it awhile.


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## jtb33 (Sep 30, 2013)

New here, but also made the half-hearted plunge to try out clipless. I ended up going with Wellgo WAM-D10 and really like them. Platform side has a lot of bite with 8 adjustable pins. When riding, the clip side is generally down as it weighs more, but they have enough friction so that on the up-stroke, the clip side is almost always on top, which makes it easy to clip into without needing to take my eyes of the trail. Not the lightest pedal, but if you're like me and wanting to try out clipless without taking the full plunge, I found these to be great pedals.


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## Stalkerfiveo (Feb 24, 2015)

TwoTone said:


> One sided pedals pretty much suck.


They make the same pedal 2 sided also. I've considered them for a Moab trip in October.


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## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

Been riding clipless on road & MTB about 10 years & have never looked back. Even after cracking ribs trying to cross a log pile that first month. I was heady with the extra horsepower & was using it to get over features I previously couldn't manage. Unfortunately, the logs shifted & stole my momentum. The heal-out action wasn't an involuntary response yet. I was trying to advance too quickly & it came back to bite me. 

Since then, the clip-out reflex has become automatic. I still get dumped from time to time, but only in situations that would have happened with platforms anyway. 

A few years ago, after acquiring my first FS bike, I went back to platforms for a month until I got used to the new ride. Couldn't wait to get back into clipless again. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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