# Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Good day MTBR,

Sorta skipping the roll call here... I'm Thierry, been building frames very very part time since 2002 now and I enjoy reading this forum. I think it's a great place where a lot of knowledge is shared and I beleive this is the most awesome thing about this forum. I've been working on a little project for a few days now and I thought this would make a good write-up so here it goes.

Basically my gf had just gotten into mountain biking, she loves it and I personally just dropped off DH for more of an All-Mountain type of riding. So we talked and came to the conclusion that what we needed was a double suspension enduro/all mountain frame that tends to be more on the cross country side. So a 4ish" x 4ish" upgradeable to 5" in the front if needed.

So here's what they'll look like :









Here's a 2d of the design followed by the goemetry.
















This is an all steel frame except for the two sideplates, which are, of course Aluminum.









Tube details :
HT : Custon CNC'd from 4130, 44mm
DT : 1-1/2" x .035" 4130
TT : True Temper HAVRDT 1-1/4" x 9-7-9
ST : True Temper VERUSSTMAG2 1-3/8" external butt 1.6/0.8
Cross tube : 1" x .028" 4130
BB : 1-1/2" x 73mm (paragon)
Pivot tube : 1-3/4" x .065" 4130
CS : 5/8" Square x .035" 4130
SS : 5/8" square x .035"
Dropouts : paragon 1-1/8 round (GF) 1-1/2 round for 12x142 (mine)

















Here's an exploded view of the pivot assembly :
Bearings (bottom bracket bearings) in teal
Spacers in red
Bearing cups in black
Axle in grey









Here's 2d view :








Most of the tubes and parts are ordered already, gonna be designing a custom jig to make them here in the next few days. I'm hoping building can begin in 2-3 weeks from now.

Cheers ! :thumbsup:


----------



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

You should put a little more thought into that whole mess....

Just kidding :thumbsup: , looks like quite a bit of time was spent here.

Is the suspension geometry based on an existing design? Where/how are you getting your links made?

And if you missed this 18Bikes' thread, those look like some steel frames that need a nice tapered HT.....


----------



## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Looks fun - is there enough chainring clearance though?


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

That toptube can no way, no how handle what you want to do with it - you'll be welding your crossbrace through the thin section of the tube. Go for supertherm or straightgauge. 

IMO for aggro riding the .035 downtube won't be able to handle mounting a pivot like that, I would go with something beefier (Supertherm!) or find a way to completely capture the pivot with the tube. 

I would bump up the chainstays in size as well - 5/8" square is not going to be very stiff and will be super heavy. Round tube is your best bet for strength/weight. 

Keep us updated! Looks like a great project. 

-Walt


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

G-reg said:


> You should put a little more thought into that whole mess....
> 
> Just kidding :thumbsup: , looks like quite a bit of time was spent here.
> 
> ...


I figure I'd try this pivot location since it seem to give a good rear wheel path and didn't cause too much chain growth. I then located the shock accordingly. Single pivots are pretty straightforward. All in all, I think it looks like a lot of single pivot bikes out there. Just wanted to keep it simple and have it to work with the frame geometries I decided to go with (rear wheel clears ST properly without being overly long, able to put a the shock tabs on the DT without interfering, shock clears ST properly... etc..)

I'm having the links' blanks waterjetted by a subcontractant out of 3/8" alu plate, then it goes onto a second operation on a CNC milling machine. CNCing is done by a good friend of mine.

Yeah I've seen those tapered headtubes 18 bikes is manufacturing, they look good. The problem I have with a tapered headtube is I just can't seem to figure out a way to make the DT and TT notches other than with a file. So until somebody comes up with a tapered/straight endmill that matches the profile of a tapered headtube, straight 44mm headtube will be... at least for me !

Thanks !


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Walt, 

Toptube : Supertherm 1-1/4" x 1-0.7-1, sold.

Chainstays : 3/4" x .035" , 3/4 x .049" or 7/8"x .035" or a chainstay specific tube, what would you recommend ?

Pivot tube and DT: I was a little worried there too. I first drew it with another 1-1/2" x .035" tube that wrapped the pivot... then said to myself "Aaaaaaa... it'll be all right" Your comment confirms my worries. I chose a straightgage tube obviously because I'd be welding quite of bit of stuff on it and doing so to the thin section of a butted tube didn't seem too too awesome to me. I'll go back to the dwg board with this.

Your input is very much appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Dr. Welby,

both gonna be 1x10 with 32 or 34 tooth chainring. Clearance won't be a problem !


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

3/4 x .035 should be enough for the chainstays provided you've worked with this kind of thin wall steel before. The seatstays can be .028" probably, I'd just make them 3/4" as well. 7/8" is probably overkill but if you can make room for your tire/chainrings/etc then you could go for it if you want to. 

The 1.5" Supertherm tube (BMXSTDT03? I can't remember the part number off the top of my head) has really long butts and should allow you to attach the pivot to the 1mm section. I would still try to somehow get yourself some more surface area for the pivot/DT joint if possible - you probably don't need to fully capture it but perching it on top of the tube like that is a recipe for disaster. 

I've done the BB-as pivot and it works great. If you want to go a little smaller on the pivot to make that joint easier to build, think about using some 1" headset bearings instead. Still plenty stiff enough (at least in my experience) and much smaller and easier to deal with. 

Man, I love to see people doing FS bikes here. I learn a ton every time. 

-Walt


----------



## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

TLKD said:


> Dr. Welby,
> 
> both gonna be 1x10 with 32 or 34 tooth chainring. Clearance won't be a problem !


Good! I'd hate to have to tell my girlfriend "Uh sweetie, you know that bike I've been building for you for the last six months..."


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Good effort, but it's just a single pivot. Why make the rear end so flimsy, comples, and expensive when you could just weld it together properly?


----------



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Looks good the only thing I would add is gusseting from the pivot to the ST to take advantage of that triangle intersection spreading the load out!!!


----------



## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Your frame looks very similar to an Xprezo frame. 

They use Columbus Zona butted tubes for the rear triangle. Not sure what the exact specs are, but you could likely figure it out.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

It seems to me that if you did a little rejiggering of things, you could nest that pivot housing in BOTH the DT and ST and alleviate any possible overloading from only using the DT. I also sort of agree with PVD that the rear triangle is potentially needlessly complex with the alloy rocker plates instead of a welded connecting member and longer stays-to-pivot, but with perhaps a different or additional reason. I wondered if 3/8 thickness would give you sufficient lateral stiffness within just the rocker itself?


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

I'll add my agreement with TM on the shifting the pivot if possible to nestle between the ST and DT. I admit that I am more a structure person than a Suspension type, but I see the better design path you've used to the rear axle path being true vertical and in the more complex way of acheiving that goal. The Mono Shock style brings the rear wheel into conflict with the seat tube at full compression, so I see your thinking here.
This needs a more expert over-view by a more experienced person to comment and I hope someone will on the merits of the lateral stiffness.

I like what you have put together thus far.

Eric


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

PVD, TrailMaker, EricM, Todwil

I gotta agree with you guys. I'll go back to the drawing board and work on the rear triangle for a bit. I'll see if I could also relocate the pivot backwards a few thousands but doing so means I also have to relocate the shock mount, this may interfere with the downtube or seattube...

I'll keep you posted.


----------



## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Why have the extra tube bisecting the toptube?

The Santa Cruz Heckler has always been a great riding bike. I'd look at modelling things off the Heckler with your updates to geometry and custom sizing.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'll second that. If you want to build a high single pivot just copy what Santa Cruz has done with whatever geometry tweaks you want. 

-Walt


----------



## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Moving the pivot forward would solve a couple issues. The Santa Cruz pivot is fully in the downtube.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

A Good Choice;

When I modeled a FS Fatbike, I decided very early on that a single pivot would be just the ticket for a novice builder, and naturally thought of the Legendary Heckler to model it after. It does not hurt one bit that I happen to have one hanging in the garage either. A good riding bike it definitely is!


----------



## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

$0.02...

-If you do stick with this general design, I don't see why you wouldn't just use off the shelf seatstays and chainstays rather than 4130. 

-If you want to capture more of the pivot between the ST and DT but not move the pivot, you could offset either or both. And/or use a 1.75" Supertherm DT.

-I don't see this design as needlessly complex for a home builder. Those Al plates would be much heavier made out of steel and if you were to use tubular steel it would be much more complicated. Also, the pivot location seems to be pretty far back compared to a Heckler, so that might be what he's going for.


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Good evening fellow builders,

I can't look at an elevated chainstay bike, so copying the heckler or make something similar that I'm very not crazy about, that I'm gonna ride and have to look at for the next few years isn't a viable option for me.

What you see down there is take #2 with a unified rear triangle, the machinist in me had a little bit of a hard time letting go the CNC'd sideplate but that's all right since I managed to make one sideplate on the driveside.

I didn't move the pivot but reinforced the pivot section, added a 1" x .035" on top of the pivot tube and I did reposition the seat tube not in line with the center of the BB (so the notch of the pivot grabs a bit of that tube as well). I understand that this is lots of beads in a pretty small area...

Not any less complicated than the sideplate option imo but it's all for a better bike I beleive. And I think I rather the look of this one.

Chainstays are the long 465mm 29er novas, I represented the non-driveside without the bend for the tire clearance... Now I'd just need an advice on how to "unbend" a bent chainstay ! Any advices on that would be much appreciated ! If that can't be done then I'll have to choose another tube for the NDS chainstay.

Anybody's got a suggestion on the thoughest seatstays out there ? I would like to use the stronger supertherm stuff but they ain't long enough since they're BMX specific. Can't take a call...

DT will be supertherm as well.


----------



## nogod (May 30, 2009)

What shock are you planning on using?


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Well, this looks interesting.

Any frame that has the direct link to the rear wheel and BB shell cut away will suffer BB rotation. This can be designed out by using various methods including heavier gauged tubing and/or larger Dia tube, bracing and sleeves. My concern with the original was to do with the bearings taking that load instead with the multi linkage that was to be used. I liked it otherwise. The bracing now used at the pivot will be good. I understand the pivot placement for the travel you are looking for and this in combo will address the bearing load somewhat, but I wonder if you have lost that nice vertical wheel movement. These bikes seem to be hard on pivot movement in a lateral sense.
You could use a fork blade for that chainstay if the dimensions work out to use one. They are very similar in dimensions and could work for you.

You are rendering drawings very well, and the proportions are also good. I like the cross tube. 'Sus' bikes are interesting in that they don't follow the 'rules' so much and this makes them innovative. Keep working on it. They call this part the frustration zone, its easy to push the save button and try a new theme. You're moving in the right direction - having a go, building up a design profile, keep up the good work.

Eric


----------



## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

I'd use Deda chain stays. You're making 2 bikes (?) so if you want 1 straight and 1 bent, just mix'n'match 2 pairs!


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

nogod said:


> What shock are you planning on using?


Fox Float CTD.



Eric Malcolm said:


> Well, this looks interesting.
> 
> Any frame that has the direct link to the rear wheel and BB shell cut away will suffer BB rotation. This can be designed out by using various methods including heavier gauged tubing and/or larger Dia tube, bracing and sleeves. My concern with the original was to do with the bearings taking that load instead with the multi linkage that was to be used. I liked it otherwise. The bracing now used at the pivot will be good. I understand the pivot placement for the travel you are looking for and this in combo will address the bearing load somewhat, but I wonder if you have lost that nice vertical wheel movement. These bikes seem to be hard on pivot movement in a lateral sense.
> You could use a fork blade for that chainstay if the dimensions work out to use one. They are very similar in dimensions and could work for you.
> ...


Thanks for the kind words Eric !

Fork blades could be a good idea for the Non-Drive side chainstays. Length could still be an issue I think.

Lateral stiffness and bearing load : worst case scenario if those bearings fail under normal abuse, I'll design new cups that can take a stack of 2 bearing side by side, making them 4 to take the load instead of 2. Lateral stiffness of the rear triangle... I guess a guy can't really do much on this after he has chosen the tubes, notched them and everything is welded...

Here's a detail view of the pivot location and rear wheel path. This is on mine where the CSL sits at 17.25" at rest. I'm hoping this will feel great and pedal good. A guy never know right 'til he throws a leg over it, eh ! Worst case scenario, if this thing bobs like a mofo, I'll just lock the shock !!!











Feldybikes said:


> I'd use Deda chain stays. You're making 2 bikes (?) so if you want 1 straight and 1 bent, just mix'n'match 2 pairs!


Yes, making 2. Mix and match is, indeed, a good idea. I just looked at Deda chainstays, they're too short.

My main problem is that I need 436mm of length (direct measurment) for the NDS chainstay (if those stays are 30mm high) from the disc side dropout to the NDS of the pivot. Add a bend into this tube and 440mm long chainstays become just too short... That's why I drew them images with the 465mm stays which still seem to be my only option... Maybe I could just weld them on outside in and work the bend off the small end...

Some stuff showed up in the mail today... Now I'm becoming the bottleneck of the project as I must send my tooling order out ASAP !!!









Out of those parts, the zip-tie cable guides are what caused my jaw to drop. These guys are machining every bit of it and there are noburrs, no nothing to add besides, holy.... Just very impressed by them so far !

Still looking for inputs on seatstays btw...


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Much better. KISS.
Make it happen.


----------



## Teague (Jul 2, 2005)

Thats pretty high leverage by todays standards, might have some trouble with shock tuning? Less leverage would reduce some stresses in the frame too.


----------



## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

I was referring more to the DS than NDS for the Deda stay since they have a nice bend.

I don't think you can really go too wrong with seatstays whatever you pick. I mean, double taper 14mm stays might look weird, but besides that, you're probably good. Hell, even MAX stays might be kinda cool. I'd probably just do 19mm single taper whatever (on the thicker walled side) or 3/4 x 0.035" straight gauge. Actually, bikelugs might have non-tapering stays still. I think I got some from them at some point.

And as for the pivot being too small comment, the aforementioned Heckler example doesn't have the biggest pivot in the world and AFAIK they hold up fine.

Why no disc mount from Paragon? Never used it, but I would think the premitered one that goes with their DOs would be super convenient. Speaking of a disc mount, someone will probably mention at some point that a brace between the SS and CS wouldn't be a bad idea.


----------



## TroyS600 (Mar 29, 2007)

I had a superlight 29 and was very impressed with the suspension action. Agreed with taking a queue from Santa Cruz on geometry. Of course you don't necessarily have to use elevated chainstays like they do, if you can figure out a way to have the pivots in the same places. The Superlight has 4" travel compared to the heckler's 6" (right?) so i'd compare the two for any differences because of that.

Cool project!


----------



## becik (May 5, 2008)

Your first design as previously said looks a lot like an xprezo.
might be interesthing to have a look...







Xprezo - Fabrication 100% canadienne

i don't know excly what lenght eye to eye your shock is but your rendering seems a bit short. 
also you will find that xprezo are also insatlling the shock mount on the top tube. as some allready suggested.
Xprezo are also using a scizor link in the top of the swing arm to prevent flex.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Best to desgn around a mid-stroke shock so the damping is in the ballpark. It should give you tuning range as well.


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Hey, thanks for the drawing and preserving the rear wheel movement.

You may have to design the chainstays to be the same both sides, rather than having a direct to pivot route on the NDS. 

Seat stays in the single taper 17-19mm range will be fine.

One bearing each side is fine, my bearing supplier suggests tapered bearings, but they are so big and heavy. In a pure load sense, he is probably right, but we don't have a motor to help us get down or up the road...

Have fun

Eric


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

becik said:


> Your first design as previously said looks a lot like an xprezo.
> might be interesthing to have a look...
> 
> i don't know excly what lenght eye to eye your shock is but your rendering seems a bit short.
> ...





Teague said:


> Thats pretty high leverage by todays standards, might have some trouble with shock tuning? Less leverage would reduce some stresses in the frame too.


Leverage ratio is 3.41 to 1 on my frame (17.25" chainstays) and 3.37 to 1 on the gf's frame (16.75" chainstays). Using a 1.5" stroke shock instead of a 1.25" to get the same rear wheel travel would get the ratio down to 2.86/2.78 to 1.
Personally I don't think it's completely out of the ballpark... but I'll think about it over the week-end...

Shock mount tab on top tube, could only be possible if I was to relocate the pivot forward and up (like most Xprezos, SC Heckler, etc...) With the pivot location I've got now, I can't. Everything else results from this particular location.



Eric Malcolm said:


> Hey, thanks for the drawing and preserving the rear wheel movement.
> 
> You may have to design the chainstays to be the same both sides, rather than having a direct to pivot route on the NDS.
> 
> ...


Chainstays, I understand they'd "work" more equally as in one side wouldn't be strongeer than the other, but we've seen different routing of stays on each side lots already... and I like'em that way and don't want a second CNC piece out of steel to make for the bike !

Tapered bearings would be awesome if they were in "our sizes". They just don't make'em small & light ! I was hoping to find some BB brackets bearings that would have angular contact but so far no luck. So I'll just stick with my first idea to use good quality enduro BB bearings and ride' the bike that way.



Feldybikes said:


> I was referring more to the DS than NDS for the Deda stay since they have a nice bend.
> 
> I don't think you can really go too wrong with seatstays whatever you pick. I mean, double taper 14mm stays might look weird, but besides that, you're probably good. Hell, even MAX stays might be kinda cool. I'd probably just do 19mm single taper whatever (on the thicker walled side) or 3/4 x 0.035" straight gauge. Actually, bikelugs might have non-tapering stays still. I think I got some from them at some point.
> 
> ...


No disc brake tab from Paragon cauz I'll just have my own laser cut and I won't have to touch it... well almost won't have to touch it, just take a lick off of it... !

That's right, gotta add a little piece of tube to create a brace down there.

Thank you all for the suggestions on the seatstays.

Cheers.


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

*Tapered Bearings are available !*

Looks like i've talked too fast,

those guys are selling taper roller bearing'd BB :









Superstar Components - High Spec Parts For Peanuts

The bearings alone seem availble too but I just doesn't know if this comes with the tapered race that goes inside the cup. bearings alone are spendy though, seems like a way better deal to buy the whole BB and turn off the cups to nothing to release the tapered race and get 2 bearings.

This looks like the best bearing option so far to me anyways.

I also decided to go forward with the 1.5" stroke shock idea to get the leverage ratio down.


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Brilliant!!!!!

Well, a top notch build on the way here indeed.

Eric


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

The 1-3/8" True temper seat tubes showed up and man are they ever HEAVY... duty. So, wanting to keep the weight down a bit I decided to use the reynolds 853 seat tube that's 1-1/4" x 1.2 x .06 x .09

Since this seat tube won't be used I decided to salvage it into something useful and give it a try. First time with welding bike specific steel tubing and first time with weldmold 880 rod (buddy of mine was welding the bikes I was designing before). Did lots of .035" 4130 last winter with acceptable results.

Today I had a "rage" to weld, I'm sure some of you guys understand what that is, eh. You go from being perfectly fine besides maybe having to take a piss, and then all of a sudden, you'd just want to be behind your helmet and lay beads... Anyhows, I decided to wack off a little test frame real quick off of that seat tube to try to reproduce some of the joints I'll have to weld on the bikes. Here's the "finished" product.









All 1-3/8" tubing except the little cross tube which is 1"x .035" 4130
BB is 1.6mm thick (thick sectin of the butted seat tube)
HT, ST and "DT" (or is it a TT???) are 0.8mm thick

The trained eye will see a huge pin hole on the DT/ST juntion. That's what happens when you forget to drill a vent hole...









Here's what the inside of the HT looks like:









Any constructive inputs are more than welcome here.

Cheers. Thierry


----------



## TroyS600 (Mar 29, 2007)

the image attachments don't seem to be working. At least i can't see them. I am logged in.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

TroyS600 said:


> the image attachments don't seem to be working. At least i can't see them. I am logged in.


Yep.


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Redid the links, should be good now.


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

*Mid may update*

Hi fellow builders,

been a while since I posted ! Got a bit done and as usual I consider myself behind schedule.

So... I got those tapered roller BBs and got them out of there, just a little heat worked out perfect ! Thes will work just awesome for the main pivot.









Got a big laser cut order, among the pile of stuff are those "driveside chainstay CNC piece raw material. Most of that steel is gonna go away once it's done of course... !!!









Here are the custom jigs I made for the frames. In the back there's the rear end's jig and that big plate is the front triangle's jig. I'm trying something new here which is using the jig as a notching jig as well. It will be very useful for the other stuff I manufacture (not bike related).
Rear end jig allows me to precisely locate all the key points. I also had holes cut out to fit a BB shell in there to screw in my crank to validate clearance.









Fast forward to the head tube notch in the DT and TT. Don't ask me why the rough cut on the DT is that off OK !!!!!!! Lucky on this one I had enough meat !!!









Worked great, tube clamping system is stiff enough, no aligning, no measuring no f'ing around whatsoever besides aligning the butts where you want which can be eyeballed if marked.









TT to ST miter before :









TT to ST miter after :









Cross tube miter thru TT :









Forgot to take a picture of that notch once that's done. You guys get the point anyways.

I think this would be the next step in framebuilding jig design. If a guy could come up with something like this integrated in an Anvil jig so you can miter everything in place and not measure or mark much, I think it would be awesome... Maybe I'm off the track here too... I'm not a real "framebuilder", I just build tools and frames for myself as I need them !

Fast forward to a 90% completed frame ready to be tacked:









Then welded the thing 'til the pot in my pedal crapped out on me right at the TT/ST junction you see on that 2nd pic down from here :


















Waiting on a new pedal to show up here before the week-end under warranty. Gotta give those folks at Everlast welders canada some positive feedbacks cause they sure took care of my problem. 11PM last night, I sent them an email confirming that the pot in the pedal was the problem. 7AM this morning they had already emailed me back saying it's covered under warranty, 9AM I had the waybill confirmation that a new pedal was sent to me. In my book this is in the "awesome" category of customer service.

Anyhows, more pics and to come in a week or so.

Cheers !


----------



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Woah, cool to see how professional fabricators attack frame building without "framebuilder" bias/experience.


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Whoa.... thats massive.

Eric


----------



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Thierry great job masterful!!!


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Another week has passed and it seems like I haven't done anything again.

Managed to finish 96% my front triangle...

welded the 1" x .028" reinforcing tube on the DT / ST junction for the main pivot tube.










Then got the big arsenal out. My new, fresh out of the oven, perpendicular-to-a-plate notching device which consist of a steel sleeve at 0.001" overbore to allow my swag off road super shaft to slide thru and notch some tubes !




























Milwaukee holesaw dead in its hole. Was brand new, I burnt it ! Never had good luck with Milwaukee holesaws in cromoly steel... or TT Supertherm !!! Pretty sure they'd work very well in wood... or even butter... soft butter...









Had to wait 'til the next morning to go thru 3 hardware stores to finally end up on these. Exchange-a-blade M42 Cobalt hole saws, the black ones (not the white or yellow) Guy said the rep said they can't be beat. (Products | Exchange A-Blade) Plus when you buy one you can bring your old one and pay for that lower price ! Tree hugger in me says "awesome". Tooth design seem pretty intricate compared to the others I have (Sandvik, Bahco, Lennox, Megacut, Metabo, Starett dual pitch (dual pitch don't work worth a s..t). Got a good feeling, we'll see how this one holds up.









Plus they seem to cut pretty smooth.









Pivot tube in.









GF and I also did most of the front triangle less the pivot section I just described above. Here's the cross tube notch I forgot to put on my last post !









GF's front triangle ready for tacking / welding.








I expect her frame to be a little lighter than mine since it's a little more than 2" shorter and has a 1-3/8" Supertherm DT (mine is a 1.5").

And then my karma goes on... waiting on CNC parts. Dammnit.....


----------



## TroyS600 (Mar 29, 2007)

Very cool how you've integrated the tube notching onto the jig!


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

*Almost done*

Hey fellow builders,

drove quite a ways in the night of tuesday to friday (134 miles back and 134 miles forth) to get those CNC machined parts so I can get at it for the week end and do most of the work left.

The CNC process transformed those chunks :










Into these :










Then I Knocked the "ears" off to make it almost a finished part :










Allowed me to finish what I had started on the rear end :










Checked the crank clearance, plenty.










View from the back of the rear end's jig.










Off to the welding dept.


----------



## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

This is effing sweet!


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Yes, he's rather special - very impressive. First bike build and he kicks butt.

I really like whats going on here.

Eric


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

*0,75$ chainstay / seatstay bending device*

Eric, not my first frame... ! Wish it was ! First time using a jig as a notching device like I did though, eh.

Forgot to talk about the chainstays and seat stays. Those were fun.

I was lacking clearance on the chainstays for the tire on my rear end with the tubes I ordered... Since I didn't want to wait either for some other tubes to show up or a bending device, I started looking around for something to wrap the tubes around to bend them to "reroute" them to clear the tire. Didn't find anything except my tube bener... So I F'ed up one of my chainstay tubes trying to bend it in my bender that has a 1" round die 3"CLR in it... Well, it's all right, who doesn't try doesn't get ! I recuperated that tube to make my chainstay bridge anyways !

So I had to find another solution so I looked at my chop saw and a piece of 2x4 that was laying in my garage. That seemed like a viable and cheap enough option !

Then custom carved the 2x4 to match the shape of the chainstays and added a pinch block and clamped it on my student's des... Oh I mean my "recuperated worktable" like so :










Then a guy just has to stick his tube in there:










and pry on it using all its weight until the tube reaches the "bottom" of the die. The photo below shows how much spring back the tube has, this tube has been pry'ed to the bottom of the die. That's how much it springs back.










Below we have the finished product against a straight edge. The initial shape was straight from the main bend to the dropout end. Sure adds some sexy curves to the bike... as well as allowed me to clear a 2.35 tire !!!










Repeatability with this setup was excellent. Put them side by side and they all look the same. I did my seatstays using straight 5/8" cromo but the gf's rear end is gonnabe made out of 19mm tapered s-bend seatstays with those accentuated curves in it. Even if they were carved for a specific model of chainstay, I managed to bend the seatstays without any problems. I guess the very large radius allows that.

Bottom line, this is a very very very cheap option to bend chainstays and seatstays. Hope this can be useful to some builders here !

Cheers !


----------



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Nice bender!!!


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

My gf's rear end is sooooo much sexier than mine.


----------



## TroyS600 (Mar 29, 2007)

Indeed it is. Gotta love a curvy lady's rear end!

Seriously, gorgeous work.


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

*Traditional rear wheel test.*

Everything works so far, she clears the tire good. Love the 27.5'' wheel size, love the 142 x 12 rear axle too ! I was one of the guys *****in about this "new "non-standard" standard"... gotta say I was wrong. This is a good idea. Also first time with tubeless tires. At this point in the project, I can say I'm very glad I went with making a one-piece welded rear triangle.




























Don't know if those crest rims are gonna be up for the AM/CC task... They're laced up with DT comp spokes. Decided to order those babies up since the arches were back order... and also cauz I wanted a lighter option ! Worst case scenario I'll taco the back one and will have to walk back to the truck / house, then I'll order an Arch ! Touch wood, I've had awesome luck with wheels and flat tires in the last 5 years...

Anybody has had bad experiences with crest rims ?
Thanks for any inputs.

Cheers.
Thierry


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

*.*

The 26'' wheel gets to try her rear end too !


----------



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Cant wait to see these as rollers or completes!! Looking great Thierry


----------



## Golem builder (Jul 31, 2009)

Thierry came by my shop yesterday to have the front triangles reamed and faced.

Nice job!


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Thierry

Can I take you back a step in your build and ask what chainstay you ended up using?There was some discussion over length and straightening a bent stay etc, but you have found a stay to use, straight, and bent it.

Keep up the excellent work.

Eric


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

*First assembly*

Big thanks to Guillaume @ Golem Cycles for the reaming, facing and chasing the threads on both frames. Beer and a half and they were done.

Every builder's nightmare : finding out that the BB is welded on the wrong side... which is exactly what I have done on the GF's frame !!! Ah well, I guess there are worst things in life than that ! At this point, I don't even care, I'm just leaving it that way.

Eric, the chainstays are true temper HOX5CS 12 degree single bend 455mm long. Pretty much the only ones long enough for the application.
Once "rolled", they worked out good.

Tonight I had to do a first assembly to figure out where I'll have to locate all the cable guides. The shocks I got are the remote ones so I had to get the dual levers too. Fork is also remotely actuated. We'll see how she handles...

Here are a few pics.










Above the down tube they all are.









GF says the yellow fox stickers have to go !!! LMAO !!! 


















As it sits on those pics it's not functional, waiting on some cups for the main pivot bearings, proper valves for both rims, rear brake caliper adapter. Gotta have the shock spacer turned down to fit... and still gotta ream the seat tube to fit the seat post. Gotta order another seat post clamp too... Little details that take lots of time... !!!! Hoping to hit the dirt with it within a week and a half.


----------



## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

That is really coming together great.

Did you weigh the frame?


----------



## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

Speaking as someone with no experience at all in assembling his significant other's bottom bracket backwards, you'll probably need need to somehow fix that at some point. Maybe you can do this with locktite. Maybe the new-fangled 2 piece cranks will actually hold the bottom bracket together vs. old skool square taper cranks. But it will try to back itself out. Again, not that I've ever done this before, and not that it was on my wife's bike, but in theory at some point I was able to take a set of bottom bracket taps and re-tap for the correct threads. The weird thing is that the threads seemed to roll the other way as opposed to have an "x" shaped cross tap. I mean, that would've been weird had I actually made such a mistake. I've also heard of filling the threads with brass and re-tapping, but have never tried this in theory or actuality.


----------



## toby_g (Jul 29, 2008)

Absolutely loving this project! Really awe inspiring.

I cannot wait to see the final finished bikes. Great stuff, well done.


----------



## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Good job on the bikes. 

To fix the BB, just run the taps through it normally as if the BB was installed correctly, preferably without running them through backwards following the threads. The BB shells shrink/distort and you'll cut plenty of new, correct, threads. After that, clean the **** out of the BB shell and once perfectly clean, slather some Devcon in the threads, and then use a popsicle stick or some such to remove any excess. You should just be able to see the tops of the minor diameter of the threads. Let it cure. Retap again in the correct direction. It will never fail.


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Oh Dear, as Dr Welby said earlier...'sweety'...

Its (BB) not a disaster. Years ago when I was an after school errand boy for the LBS I was given a frame to build up and it had a cast BB shell and it was threaded wrong. We put the taps down it and corrected it. The LBS sold it and it never came back with a problem.

Your bike is impressive in the bike stand even partially assembled. I think both sizes as you have presented them will look very balanced and well proportioned. I'm liking the cross-tube look.

Eric


----------



## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Eric Malcolm said:


> Oh Dear, as Dr Welby said earlier...'sweety'...


Oh no! I jinxed him!


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Thanks ya'all on the suggestions with the BB thread problem. Happy to realize I'm not the only one f'ed up on that !!!

I took the call to have the taps ran thru that BB the way it was. So they are done "backwards" and I'll give it a try it that way.

Plan A is to use red loctite and see how this holds up. I doubt this won't work, as I've put red loctite to much much worst application than that and it did the job just perfect

Plan B, if Plan A fails, will probably be to rethread the "proper" way like DWF said. With this option, I'm a little scared to f' up the whole BB if it ain't work as planned since the initial run with the tap has been done in accordance with the side of the threads.

Thanks for all the positive comments on the bike, that's like my paycheck for taking the time to share all of this with you, builders & lurkers.

More to come soon... My Karma continues as I'm waiting on the CNC'd bearing cups for the main pivot. "Maybe friday" I've just been told...

Cheers.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

No;

I have not done the backwards BB housing thing yet, in my two frames worth. I managed to make very sure I marked them in quite obvious fashion, and further managed to take note of my own planning well enough to get them in correctly. I'm probably due on my third one now that I've mentioned it... whenever that happens.

I would suggest an incremental approach, and blue (medium) Loctite. Just enough to do the job is the incremental way, and blue might do it. It will obviously be far easier to deal with if you have to take it out in the future. If it does not hold, you can always step up to the next rung at that time.

Consider the BB housing as the "signature" on your artwork. Character point. Very fine work, that once hiccup notwithstanding.


----------



## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Loctiting BBs in place is a mistake, IMHO. Fix it now while it's still easy.

For the record, machined BB shells, at least Paragons and others I've run across, are marked to note the left hand thread by the placement of a face groove on that side.


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

DWF, I'm curious to know what makes you beleive that it would be a mistake to loctite it ? I use blue and red loctite accordingly almost everywhere on my bikes, sleds and motorcycles and it has worked great so far.

You also mentioned Devcon on your other post, those guys got a range of products, which one exactly were you referring to ?

Thanks !


----------



## whydomylegshurt? (Jul 28, 2004)

DWF can certainly answer for himself, but I'm guessing he means once you loctite the BB in place it will be far more difficult to clean it well enough for the Devcon to bond properly. If the loctite doesn't end up working it will be more difficult to repair once contaminated. 

What type of cranks/BB are you using that can be mounted backwards? I know SRAM GXP cannot be as the cranks locate off the non-driveside bearing. I don't know about Shimano/Raceface/FSA BBs. I suppose you could always run ISIS or square taper.


----------



## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

TLKD said:


> DWF, I'm curious to know what makes you beleive that it would be a mistake to loctite it ? I use blue and red loctite accordingly almost everywhere on my bikes, sleds and motorcycles and it has worked great so far.
> 
> You also mentioned Devcon on your other post, those guys got a range of products, which one exactly were you referring to ?
> 
> Thanks !


Because the earlier you fix it, the less you have to risk. You've invested a lot to get where you are, so fix it correctly now before you risk more is my way of thinking.


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Thierry

Listen to DWF. Its very wise advice. I suggest the same thing. Not opposing your view, but see the big picture. We all at some point have a frustration moment, and we have to work through it. Mention silver brazing, I 've recently been there...

Eric


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

*Scale it up*

Borrowed my neighbour's bathroom scale and weighted my frame tonight (also weighted my dog, my wheelset and my own self) !

Everything was there including the 6.5 x 1.5 shock, 12mm axle and headset but the main pivot bearing housings were missing, (supposed to have them tomorrow)

Bathrrom scale says 6.8 pounds for all of the above. I only trust this scale to be accurate within 5 to 10 % and I was hoping to be less than 7.5 with shock, so I think I can say I'm satisfied.

What surprised me is the wheelset, nothing to write a book about but they came out at 7.0 pounds for both wheels with tires, discs and 40 somethign pounds of air in them !!!

BB issue; still don't know what I'll do but think I'll just be the stubborn f'ing guy and go the loctite way ! Then I can at least prove if this works or not. We "know" the option of rethreading "works". I'll test this one, then that becomes useful knowledge for the whole community afterwards. Either it works or not, I can always just take the cups off and rethread the proper way, unless the cups chewed up the thread so bad I can't do it anymore but I guess the cups are gonna be the ones getting chewed up.

Peace.

Thierry


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Thierry

Good to see you have strong convictions. If there is a future problem, the alloy cups will go, not the BB steel shell.

My last experience with a BB was over 2 yrs ago where I towed a young lady home (10 miles) holding on to my hydration pack strap on the road. Her bike was a Carbon every thing road bike and the right cup unscrewed. Off road, that would be a long walk out. 

Eric


----------



## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

FWIW, I put an EBB insert into my Carve the wrong way, unknowingly, then installed the square taper BB and rode a race. It lasted approximately 15km before it undid itself.


----------



## toby_g (Jul 29, 2008)

Just thinking out loud here: How do old frames with Italian Bottom Brackets hold together (with the "wrong" right hand thread on the driveside)? If old Italians are able to keep pedalling, surely Thierry can on his...

(My opinion is still to fix it now while you can, but I was just ordering some new BB shells and saw Italian threads were still an option and a dim light went ping somewhere)


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Toby, you are indeed correct, Italian thread is to be avoided like the plague. They do not always give trouble, but when they do..... The young ladies bike that I encountered was Italian. Alloy BB shell in a carbon frame, did not come out well and wrote the frame off. 'Daddy' had plenty of money. It's an easy fix now, potential problem in the future. 

To give Thierry credit, his frame weight is good and can expect a finished bike @ 25-28lbs. This BB stuff can be distracting. Keep up the good work.

Enough said.

Eric


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

*1st time out*

got out for the first time tonight for a quick 10 min spin around the block.

First thing I gotta say about the bike : It's light and fun to ride ! Can't notice the difference between 26 and 27.5 yet. It pedals very nice too.

Nicer pics to come... with a seatpost !


----------



## metalray (Aug 11, 2009)

The frame looks amazing!
When will you be taking orders ;D


----------



## Matximbrat (Mar 15, 2007)

Awesome. What is the frame weight?
Congrats


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

So cool. Very nice.


----------



## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Great job on the frames! I really like your plate jig/miter system.
This makes me want to build a FS frame.


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

*1st ride report*

All right, been wanting to post this for a few days here but couldn't have decent internet access... !!!

Here it goes :

Gf's frame is all set and done, first test out on the street to validate proper function of everything. Pictured here with the missing seatpost. That's last Thursday (July 4th) evening.









This build underlines the end of the "first life" of my beloved "short stays" full rigid 26er 1x10, frame built in '05 using .035" cromoly for main beam (2"), down tube (1.5") and seat tube (1.5"), Columbus Max MTB chainstays and seat stays (the old stuff from the early 2000s) as I stole a lot of parts off of it to build both bikes. I'll clean the frame/fork/headset/seatpost combo and hang it up there 'til a second life opportunity shows up ! This was such a great frame.









Finally came the night (Friday 9:30PM) where I got those frames all completed and done (except cable guides) so last saturday morning we loaded our good'ol trusty Datsun Truck&#8230; I mean Nissan truck to head east to spend a weekend in the "wild".









Our campground for the night of Saturday to Sunday, random p-lot near a beach on St-Lawrence river. Saturday was such a good satisfying day of hiking / ''via ferrata'' for those of you who knows wtf this is. Boys and gals who're afraid of heights, just don't go there. We finished out the day with a nice supper in a microbrewery to underline gf's birthday.









Since we're not big fans of overpopulated trails or areas in general, we decided to go to a ski resort that's closed for the summer and see what we could find there, not really knowing what to expect at all !!! Anyhows, Sunday PM, time to unload and snap a few pics before we put those raw steel newborns to dirty work !





































Gotta thank Tyler @ twenty6 for making aaaawesome CNC parts like seatpost clamps, stems and of course pedals. Those predator pedals up there are, without a doubt, the best damn things I've ever put my feet on.









Bike, myself and dog.



















What we thought was the most interesting thing to do was to hit some of the cross-country ski trails and try to get to a cabin that overlooks the St-Lawrence river. Here's a view of some of the terrain we went thru.




































Still didn't know about that brown seat until I looked at this pic, then it seemed like the right color to pick.


















Tree hugger.





































The trail turned out to be a pick-up trail at first, then became a quad trail, then just a single track, then basically almost lost the single trail to the point where we had to hike. I figured we hiked about half a mile in total cauz some sections were just too rough to pedal thru.

We got our fair share of techy descends and climbs during the trip. Unfortunately didn't snap any good pics of those. The bikes handled them very nicely. GF did awesome on the techy descends for a second time on such trails. I almost went over the bars at least twice but manage to stay on the bike, thanks to the 68 degree HTA and short stem. Techy climbs were fun too, the bigger wheel on my bike seem to offer awesome traction as I got myself trying a couple of "impossible climbs" and ended up bailing a lot further than I thought I would. All of that to say that overall the bikes are pedaling nice, climbing nice and downhilling nice. Also, I had left the 3 chainrings on the gf's bike since I ran out of time to take 2 off. It turned out that she used the granny ring a little bit for the longer climbs. Shifting it "manually" ! Thought that was a cool "option" to gear down that doesn't add lots of weight.

After about 2 hours of "b'hiking" we finally got to that cabin the map said we wound get to with the paycheck we were expecting: an awesome view of the St-Lawrence river and nobody else but us and the bikes on the mountain to enjoy it. Those pics ain't doint it justice !




























The last section of the loop back to the truck went so much quicker as this seems to be the access road to the cabin for quads. That last mile and a half before the cabin was obviously the roughest we had gone thru all day. We completed the 13.5km/8.4miles (ish) loop with a long downhill run down the main gravel road back to the truck.










Once back to the truck, dog needed to burn some steam so him and I headed back up the logging road for a quick run. This little guy just loves to pull !



















We've been doing this every day for about 4 years now !









Loving life.









Fully loaded.

Wrong side BB update : The cups are holding there nicely, still. I ended up using blue Loctite&#8230; a lot of blue Loctite since I ran out of red&#8230; ! Time will tell if this holds up but as far as I'm concerned, it seems to be "glued" in there pretty good.

I'm taking an extra minute to thank all you guys for following my build. That was an extra dose of motivation for me to share this experience with people who are interested in frame building. By looking at the amount of views on the thread, you are more than just a few. Cheers to ya'all.

I'll make sure I get a few pics of the bikes once they're powder coated.

Thanks. Thierry


----------



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

You did a great job on both of them post more pics when get cable guides and paint or
powdered!!!

Todd


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Been great following this thread. Nothing beats enjoying the ride once built.
Look forward to seeing some colour on the bikes.

Eric


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

*2 months update*

I guess it's time for a little 2 month update.

I had the chance of riding in a variety of terrain during the last 2 months and the thing rides awesome in 97% of them. Went over the bars twice in the steep technical stuff so I wouldn't change a thing except for a slacker headtube (I'd go 66.5 or 67 instead of 68) Love the ride feeling of steel. I use it almost every day.










The gf's bottom bracket that I welded on the wrong side is still holding up great. I'm calling all good on this fix. So, for anyone who may do this mistake you know it can be fixed easily.

Hoping to get some powder on them babies before the winter.

Keep your stick out of the puddle.

Thierry


----------



## marekvag (Oct 30, 2011)

That is awsome bike! Im preparing for building FS 650b bike for long time. Hopefully it will turn out as good as yours.


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

*Sticker kit*

Between 2 projects I managed to put together a sticker kit for my bike.

Originally, I wanted to paint the whole thing this way here when I first finished it in july :









But it seems like all the big manufacturers are doing this style of paint (painting the interior portion of each "triangle") nowadays so it was kind of a big turnoff for me seeing all the 2014 bikes that had that style of stipes on them...

Anyhows, I decided to keep it simple & clean and go all white powder coat with this "beach/woody/parlsey" inspired theme and use my "hawk with antlers" logo I've been using for some snowmobile parts I use to build 2-3 years ago !

Don't know if I'll keep the big ones as a wrap around the downtube or if I'll seperate them and just

Pink lines are cut lines by the way, they ain't part of the kit.










GF keeps telling me that the teal won't fit the orange of the parts ! I say it'll fit as long as they're not side by side !!!

I'll probably have to make new stickers for the fork too... !

It'll get powder coated real soon. S'more to come.

Thanks for following.

Thierry


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Slice of life here, I use to make graphics kit that were a lot more complicated than the one above. I guess getting older makes me want to do cleaner / simpler designs.

One that I think did its job pretty darn good for the days was the one for the G-Boxx DH Bike I built in 08-09. I called it the "BC Moutain Camouflage" kit. Started off as a picture that I took of a tree that got half snowed in with the witch hair and everything, eh. Just saturated the colors and added a bunch of stuff to it there it was.


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

One that I think did its job pretty darn good for the days was the one for the G-Boxx DH Bike I built in 08-09. I called it the "BC Moutain Camouflage" kit. Started off as a picture that I took of a tree that got half snowed in with the witch hair and everything, eh. Just saturated the colors and added a bunch of stuff to it there it was.








[/QUOTE]

Compliments on the graphics. I really like the seat/seat-stem arrangement employed on this bike. Not a way of doing it that I have ever seen or thought of before today.

Eric


----------



## TroyS600 (Mar 29, 2007)

That is pretty interesting. Is that an idler sprocket for chain-line? What is that cable going to the middle of it. We may need more info on that guy! Is there a thread about it?


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

All right, finally got some "appliance white" pow on that bad boy. Ain't the exaaaaact white as the fork but, eh, pretty happy with it.
Seat post clamp missing cauz it doesn't fit anymore...





































Cheers.

Thierry


----------



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

TroyS600 said:


> That is pretty interesting. Is that an idler sprocket for chain-line? What is that cable going to the middle of it. We may need more info on that guy! Is there a thread about it?


No idler sprocket, this is a G-Boxx internal transmission bike and what you see is the output sprocket that drives the chain. No thread about it unfortunately !


----------



## dump (Nov 14, 2005)

The pure white looks great. Leave it like that


----------

