# Let's talk rear dropouts and chain tensioners.



## JDfromBR (Mar 5, 2012)

What's your take on how various manufacturers are handling the rear tire mounts on their single speeds? (no drop-outs or sliding vertical dropouts, different chain tensioners, etc) Is a drop-out truly a luxury to have for single speed? Any chain tensioners you avoid?

Tell me a story..


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## Caffeine Powered (Mar 31, 2005)

EBB for me. Three bikes with them.


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## umarth (Dec 5, 2007)

There are a lot of options. I like sliders and ho's. 

Importantly, with eccentric hubs and forward comp bb, you can make any bike a SS. You have more options if you are willing to consider a tensioner (which really are not that bad).

I'd try to find a frame geo. If your crank/budget allows you to convert it, awesome. Any bike can do a conversion with a tensioner.


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## JDfromBR (Mar 5, 2012)

Part of me kind of likes the old 20 incher way of doing things. it was simple although it required some skill. I guess that's what's on the gravity 29 SS from BD. 

Im hoping the Marlin SS has a good set-up because I'm leaning that way right now. I don't want any problems..


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

i like swingers


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## Ouzo4Twozo (Aug 27, 2010)

I've run EBBs and never had much luck, whether it's poor tension, creaking, or a stuck EBB that has to be broken free to adjust. My new frame has a set of paul track ends and they work great with the fun bolts on my king hub.

I haven't lost tension yet and I don't have the tension keepers installed.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

I like stainless steel Paragon sliders.


On big factor for me is that my seat position relative to the BB axle does not change as a result of chain tension. This might seem obsessive but I want to keep my position relative to where I apply power the same across my bikes.

The only downside with sliders and swingers is that they are sorta heavy. Not really heavy but the weight wheezy crowd will do better with EBB or track ends.

I am thinking about doing Paragon Track ends and vbrakes on a lightweight build I am sorta planning for the future. The downside with track ends is you have to fiddle with your brake position and they are hard to use with disk brakes. But the combo of track ends and vbrakes is super light and depending on how you ride having vbrakes in the back works well if paired with a disk brake in the front. It seems with 29ers I can't find a high end squish fork that does vbrakes without doing something custom.


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

Personally, I like horizontal dropouts and a bolt on axle. No tensioners, no special tools and a simple design. I have a Karate Monkey and I am currently running a bolt on skewer and a Surly Tugnut on the drive side. Haven't had problems but I still want to get a bolt on rear hub soon for assurance.


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## Your Bike Sucks (May 20, 2011)

I like just Chris King Fun bolts. 

I had used a chain tug on my Bianchi WUSS, but when I upgraded wheels I tried the Fun bolts and...super snug.

I'm going with the same set-up on my new SS. I removed the 2 allen set screw chain tensioners that were in the frame (they were worthless).


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

Your Bike Sucks said:


> I like just Chris King Fun bolts.
> 
> I had used a chain tug on my Bianchi WUSS, but when I upgraded wheels I tried the Fun bolts and...super snug.
> 
> I'm going with the same set-up on my new SS. I removed the 2 allen set screw chain tensioners that were in the frame (they were worthless).


Got any more pics of that beast?


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## Your Bike Sucks (May 20, 2011)

davesauvageau said:


> Got any more pics of that beast?


I uploaded a few in another thread "Finally Broke Down & Got a 29'r" here in the SS forum. I would post here, but didn't want to hijack this thread .


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## brutal910 (Jun 2, 2010)

*surly chain tensioner*

surly tensioner 39.00


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

CHUM said:


> i like swingers


I bet you do...

you're so money.


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## jontry1 (Mar 11, 2012)

my nan! but thats not my grandad..


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## DosNueve (Feb 18, 2012)

I'm not fond of the Vassago tensioner. They work though. I lost the thumb adjustment end right away and had to rig something up.


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## Lord Humongous (Jan 12, 2004)

Not too fond of the surly adaptor, but for me nothing has beat a pulley and spring tensioner in terms of low maintenance and on trail function. Yes, it weighs a bit and there is some occasional chainslap, but my bike works and doesn't creak, doesn't slip, and is fun to ride. Just got off of five years of Melvin and it was great.


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## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

I ended up making some of these tensioners for a few MTBR members, and since I had some of the stuff to make 10, I made 10 :thumbsup: The people who I talked to about them really were interested in a shade of green like the rims on my bike, so that's what I went with. I've got 6 left that are not spoken for yet, and am trying to save some money for a frameset since my SS crapped out on me the other day. PM me if you are interested in one!

(apologies for the poor quality photos, they are the same color as the rims, my rims are just dirty)



















You'll get a tensioner, a derailleur bolt to bolt it up to your der. hanger, a pulley wheel and chain guide, and the hardware you need to bolt it all together. You'll also get an aluminum spacer that is about an inch long that will need to be cut to size to adjust your chainline. I've got about 45 minutes and $10 in powdercoat, hardware and expenses into each one, and they turned out awesome


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## robtre (Apr 9, 2008)

I recently had a problem with front bolt tensioner on a Jabberwocky build I did. The axle diameter was much less than the width of the horizontal drop out and the axle upon braking slipped past the "jabbernutz" on the drive side and subsequently bent the bolt. I had a time getting it out but therupon purchased Surly Tugnuts and havent had a problem since.


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

I've run track ends, tensioners, sliders and an EBB:

Track ends: My Jabberwocky was rock solid with a Hope SS bolt on hub and the little tension bolts.

Sliders: Rockhopper 29 that was a great bike except that the sliders wouldn't keep the chain tensioned. Scuffed paint, lock washers, star washers, and 2004 other fixes. Specialized replaced the frame under warranty with the new EBB version.

EBB: Specialized Rockhopper SL frame. Great frame, EBB was PERFECT. Split shell design was easy to use, easy to clean, creak free. I'm a big guy and I was as surprised as anyone about how awesome this EBB was. 

Tensioners: Plenty. Cheapo performance, bolt on Sette, etc. So far, they've all been a pain in the ass, and are still susceptible to the old "stick in the derailleur" malfunction.  My Yelli Screamy is wearing a Sette right now that's been chopped and ground into fitting and I'm eagerly searching for a better option.

I'm looking at the philcentric, but it seems like a $300 solution to a $30 problem.


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

I would stay away from the DMR chain tugs:

DMR Chain Tugs | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com

I had these and not for long, they have too much play on the back plate and screw. So when you tensioned them the backplate would angle out and slide about. The main screw doesn't go straight back through the dropout. It's not deep enough in the dropout and hence has a bad angled pull. But I won't say too much bad about them because in all practicality they are meant for BMX.

I currently use the very generic one that comes with my bike ( Dawes Bullseye ). Albeit its not great, it does work and doesn't eschew. I think the main thing is the pull that your device creates is pulling straight through the dropouts or does someone know of a universal dropout spacer that doesn't pull but pushes?

I would like to avoid paying $30+ for the Surly, but everyone more or less agrees that it is the best. However before I eventually do I would like to check these out from On-One.

Please if you have experience let us know.

On-One chaintug

but i get a feeling that the screws making direct contact with the ends isn't a good idea? Wouldn't a flat plate be better?

Here is a bunch on amazon: Amazon.com: chain tension: Sports & Outdoors

Most will agree the surly tuggnut is the better option though.


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## tims5377 (Oct 20, 2010)

I like track ends. 
I had a pair of HBC tensioners, which cost a bunch and took a long time to arrive, and then they bent a half mile into my first ride on them. pissed.
i then got $10 redline tensioners and they are awesome. solid, easy to adjust, look clean, and quite burly


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## kayakpete (Mar 3, 2009)

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the DMR STS tensioner. Cheap. Simple. Reliable, as far as I can tell?

Just not so much fun when you have to pull the wheel off.

I think those BB-mounted tensioners look awesome tho. But I have a hard time figuring out which BB they would or would not fit on.


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## tooclosetosee (Aug 2, 2011)

EBB on my Haro Mary SS. I haven't had any problems with it so far. I really think that a non-problematic EBB is the way to go. I haven't tried any other tensioners though.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

I've had a fine time with track ends on a cheap SE Stout. I'm building up a Salsa El Mar, so we're see if their fancy do-dads are any good.


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

Well I broke down and got the surly tuggnut!

Sorry no pics, yet... However it does live up to the hype. I still don't think it's worth 35 euro with shipping and handling. I do believe that it is one of, if not the best chain tension device I tried so far. I did get it for a little less at an all single speed shop in Holland. 25 Euro.

It's for sure different than others. It's really a smooth flat piece of metal with a screw hole and key on the back. Here is a good photo of the back side which should help to show how it works.










Installation was straight forward, no surprises. The way it catches the track ends is adequate, the single thumb screw is great for fine tuning and means I can carry one less tool around. It does give a solid feeling and I am using mine with a QR adapter and just normal QR skewers.

It does open the beer too... Glad that I got it, I may get another just for the look and the ability to fine tune the rear wheel better. The thumber screw is quite nice.


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## wjphillips (Oct 13, 2008)

I would like to see a drop out converter which converts a vertical drop out to a horizontal one (if at all possible). I know this might be a silly solution but I was just wondering if there are options out there for this.

Does anyone know if problem solvers has such a converter?


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

wjphillips said:


> I would like to see a drop out converter which converts a vertical drop out to a horizontal one (if at all possible). I know this might be a silly solution but I was just wondering if there are options out there for this.
> 
> Does anyone know if problem solvers has such a converter?


It would be a POS if it existed.


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

I think when you look at the On-One/Titus/Vitus (not sure the name).

On-One Lurcher XT Mountain Bike

You see they have a unique frame which would let you switch between the two types using a drop out piece. So basically you choose what you want. But I think they are moving away from that more. Also I believe the Kona Unit has similar backend.

However for most traditional frames, I don't think it would be worth your time or effort or money to convert a vertical to a horizontal with gadget or welding.


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## captnpenguin (Dec 2, 2011)

I have only ever owned one single speed so far (also my current ride) and I am completely happy with my horizontal sliders. It is slightly annoying to have to loosen the rear break to get the rear wheel off, but I rarely need to take it off so I don't mind. I considered getting a Tugnut simply so that I could have an opener on my bike, but the anal retentiveness in me would want one on the other side for symmetry, but that would just be silly. Plus I like carrying around my Jethro Tool instead. Yes, I have completely drank the Surly Kool-Aid and I love it...


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## ferday (Jan 15, 2004)

brownrl said:


> I think when you look at the On-One/Titus/Vitus (not sure the name).
> 
> On-One Lurcher XT Mountain Bike
> 
> ...


i have a lurcher with the swapouts (the on one name for replaceable dropouts). a lot of FS bikes are coming with replaceable dropouts now to make up for axle standards, or even to adjust geometry or tire sizes!

on topic, i've used sliders, EBB, track ends, and tensioners....and i'd rate them in the same order. my sliders never slipped and adjusted very easily, my EBB is ok (bit creaky but i like how easy it is to adjust) and my track ends are occasionally irritating (mostly the disc mount stuff).


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

My order of preference, bestest to worstest:

- forward horizontal dropouts (Surly Crosscheck): light, simple, easy to adjust, easy to remove wheels

- pinch bolt EBB (OS Blackbuck): solid, creak free, easy to adjust, and I kind of like the option to play around with bottom bracket height or chainstay length

- good sliders (Soma): also solid (so far), but I'm not big on how long the chainstays can get with these

- my cheap tensioner: not just for newbies anymore, I think a tensionser allows easy wheel removal, easy setup, and easy ability to run a dinglespeed. Like this:










With the thumbscrew, I can easily change the lateral position of the chain to switch from road gear to mountain. No wheel removal needed.

- Phil Wood EBB (Peregrine): not quite as slick as the pinch bolt, it worries me a bit about deforming the bottom bracket shell

Any of the above are fine for me.

- Eccentric bottom bracket: this works, but it makes brake adjustment a hassle and it more finicky to set up. I prefer a tensioner unless I'm running a fixed gear.

The following I avoid:

- Bushnell EBB: creaky and slippy

- bad sliding dropouts (Voodoo, Specialized): also creaky and slippy

- track ends: wheel slips unless you add a chain tug, wheel removal is a hassle, but at least they're light and cheap (until you add a chain tug)


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

Wow! What a setup... what's your gear ratios?


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## wreckedrex (May 2, 2007)

horizontals on my old Chameleon: Seems to work fine with shimano qr skewers and an old Kore tug.

Sliders on my P7: Also work fine.

Cheap performance tensioner: It's been on a few frames and it never quite worked right on any of them. It was probably best after I hacked it into a fixed push up arrangement, but I still never trusted it. Fine for light around town duty though.


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## struggleT (Feb 7, 2009)

I can't resist -

Even though whenever I post this, threads seem to just sort of die. Well here goes anyway.










No, you shouldn't do this to just any dropout, but the clunky steel ones I did this to have given years of hard service. Downside, of course, is you can file your way to a majic gear once (or actually twice in this case, I used to run 30:15), but you are still relatively stuck after that. But for a beloved old if cheap frame with a nearly-magic chainstay length, it makes for a very clean solution.


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

32x20 and 36x16. Same chain length (although then tensioner could absorb a few teeth's difference), and it gives me two relatively wide range gears.



brownrl said:


> Wow! What a setup... what's your gear ratios?


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## Wiggles_dad (Jan 19, 2008)

I second Chris King fun bolts and a simple track drop. There is no need for a tensioner or tugnut.


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

So that "fun bolts" are strong enough not to slip?

At any rate, here are some photos of the setup I got with the Surly Tuggnut.

The above view showing the key and how it sets up.










The out view showing the overall look.










Then to straighten out the wheel I use the hole in the frame and the center line of tire, once I have the tension I want on the chain.










Easy Peasy


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## surreal (Jan 25, 2008)

I gotta chime in and say that track-ends with a bolt-on hub are the simplest solution. Fun-bolts have a rep for being very good at holding position, but i've had good results with cheaper options in the past. Full disclosure: I do tend to run a chain-tug for added insurance, but have had few problems with even cheap hubs/hardware (eg, Surly "New" hub) even without chain-tugs. FWIW, nice chain-tugs for cheap are plentiful in the BMX world, and these are what I tend to use.

As for sliders, I gotta say, not all are created equal. I had some bad experiences with old (the pea-green color; might've been the 1st year?) Redline Flight sliders; I had to upgrade all of the hardware to get it to be reliable and quiet. Paragon makes nice sliders, but they've since moved to swingers; I wonder if this wasn't done to address complaints? (Pure speculation there.)

EBBs: I've never lived with an EBB personally, but I've read enough complaints online and heard enough of them creaking on the trails to have avoided them. It seems as though the design and execution has improved over time; fewer and fewer of them are being complained about on the interwebs or being noticeably creaky on the trails. I still think they are a goofy solution, from an aesthetics standpoint, but I doubt if my fashion-sense is of much consequence to anyone.

White Industries eccentric hubs: These (the rim-brake version) seem like a great idea; I never quite pulled the trigger on buying one for my old hardtail, which still sports a 3x9 drivetrain. The disc version scares me; i don't trust it to work, possibly b/c I don't fully understand how the disc-i-ness jives with the eccentricity. Perhaps these frighten me the same way that fire frightened early cavemen, but I believe I'll stay far away. (I'm always likely to buy a SS-specific frame for SS builds, anyway.)

hth
-rob


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

Anyone got experience with the niner one 9 BioCentric thingy?


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## robtre (Apr 9, 2008)

I bought a bolt on conversion for my Vassago, dropped the Surly tensioners and bolted that baby on tonite. Tomorrow first ride.


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## Manicmtbr (Jan 26, 2004)

surreal said:


> As for sliders, I gotta say, not all are created equal. I had some bad experiences with old (the pea-green color; might've been the 1st year?) Redline Flight sliders; I had to upgrade all of the hardware to get it to be reliable and quiet. Paragon makes nice sliders, but they've since moved to swingers; I wonder if this wasn't done to address complaints? (Pure speculation there.)
> 
> hth
> -rob


Paragon still makes sliders in addition to the rocker dropouts. Drew from Engin helped with the design of the rocker dropouts. I think the benefit of the rockers is to move the disc brake (and the forces from it) to the chain stay, in the low mount position.

As Mark from Paragon stated in the Dirt Rag article, not all sliders are created equal. He has had people call him up to ***** about the dropouts, only to find the ones the customer is talking about are not Paragons, just copies of their design.


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## robtre (Apr 9, 2008)

Ok Bolt on is the way to go for me! I put on a 17t cog to ride trails I usually ride 19 comfortably today and I set a new PR for my local tail. More speed meant more braking where I had a majority of my problem with my axle moving in the rear. BOLT ON!


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## JBugno (Aug 23, 2012)

Is there any consensus on the horizontal rear facing dropouts vs some fashion of sliding vertical dropouts. Especially when it comes to disc brake alignment.


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## Lord Humongous (Jan 12, 2004)

Consensus? From Mountain Bikers? And Singlespeeders at that? Not likely. Get a frame that fits, the rest you can work out.


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