# Cane Creek Double Barrel Air - air can service



## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

*Cane Creek Double Barrel Air - air can service AND damper service*

I ran into a situation recently where my CCDB Air could no longer hold me up. seemed like it was losing a lot of air on my rides and I would bottom out easily. I also noticed my shock pump telling me I would lose roughly 80-100psi every time I rode (far more than the little air you lose when re-attaching a shock pump). Upon letting out all the air from my shock, it immediately compressed itself into the stuck down position; Air is trapped in the negative chamber. Seems like it would be a simple enough fix so I decided to look up online for some help or instruction manual. None to be found from all of my searches. I didn't want to send it in for a full service as I knew the problem was only with the air can so I decided to take it apart myself. It is basically like doing an air can service on a Fox or Rockshox rear shock albeit slightly more complicated. Either way, here is my procedure for doing it and what parts you need to get to do it yourself if you are so inclined. Be warned, I'm sure this voids any warranty or whatever. I'm just the type of person that can't stand waiting on manufacturers when I want to ride and I also get enjoyment out of doing things myself.

This is my CCDB Air CS from my Specialized Enduro. That is why the top of the air can looks funny. Cane Creek supplies the instructions to get your shock to this point if you want to make volume adjustments to the air can.


You'll then need to get some tools in order to crack open the air can. You'll need an external bottom bracket tool. I have the ParkTool one, but it doesn't work unless you cut out the end. The Park Tool BB tool is a full circle and it won't fit over the piggy back. 


In addition to this tool, you'll need a vise with either a shaft clamp tool, or go the cheap route like me and get grooved aluminum soft jaws. Lastly, an adjustable wrench, heat gun and strap wrench are very helpful.
The air can actually opens up on both sides. The stanchion side uses the BB tool to loosen. I put the top of the air can into my vise and used the BB Tool to start un-threading the caps. The top cap or bottom cap could start to loosen. Regardless of which ever cap came off first, I used a strap wrench on the center section of the air can. If the bottom cap came off, then I used the strap wrench to loosen the center section from the top cap. If the top cap came off, I used the BB Tool on the bottom cap while holding the center section with the strap wrench.




One I got the shock to this point, I put the center piston shaft into my vise using grooved aluminum soft jaws to clamp it in place. I used an adjustable wrench to remove the top cap from the piston shaft. I needed to use a heat gun on the threads to loosen the top cap.


Once the top cap is removed, the center section of the air can is removeable as well.




You need to remove the gold air piston to remove the bottom cap to the air can. It is held on to the damper inner seal head with three, 3mm long screws. These screws came out waaaaay too easy for me. Every hole was stripped. I recall reading a thread on MTBr before discussing this problem with the CCDB Air on the Specialized Enduro. There is a lot of side load strain on this shock and there is play in the middle. I now see how this is happening. The side load forces the air piston to rub very hard into the air can. In turn, it pulls on those screws that fasten the air piston to the inner seal head. Look at how it rubbed away the gold color from my air piston!


Thankfully, I didn't see any marring on the inside of the air can, but I still had to deal with the stripped out holes that were used to secure the air piston in place as seen in this picture.


Notice that the holes around the inner seal head are all symmetrical. I simply rotated my air piston over one hole and all 3 holes on the air piston lined up with new holes on the inner seal head. The depth of each hole on the inner seal head is 8.5mm. Cane Creek used 3mm screws to secure the air piston. I disagree with this approach and prefer securing the air piston with a longer screw thus spreading out the side load on the air piston over a larger surface area. I grabbed some countersunk screws of the same size and cut them to 7mm long. The size of the original holes were for metric M4 screws with a 0.7mm pitch, so I kept with that spec and tapped in 3 new holes. Here is the difference between the screw I'm using and the original screw.


I was able to tighten down the air piston VERY tight. Definitely not to the point where I would strip the hex head from the screw or destroy the threads on the soft aluminum, but definitely to a point to where if I loosened the air piston again, you'd hear and feel a 'pop' when breaking the screw free. This was much better than what it was before.
Speaking of the air piston rubbing the sides of my air can, here is what I was greeted with when I opened my air can for the first time:


That's not dirt. That's o-ring (or in this instance, quad ring) scuz. The constant side load I think caused the quad ring to wear out very quickly and turn to mush. This is what caused my air can problems and as such, is the most important part to replace for this service. I'm assuming the quad ring wore away and somehow would trap air in the negative chamber as opposed to allowing it to travel back and forth every time it passed by the 'scoop' in the side of the air can. I'm thinking the mushiness of the quad ring would fill in the scoop as it passed over and trapped the air in the negative chamber.
Here is the scoop in the air can I'm referring to that allows air to equalize in the chambers.


As for the bottom cap, here are the 4 parts that you can replace:


Take care when removing these parts so as not to scratch the surfaces they are sealing. I was able to find all of these parts at O-Rings - The O-Ring Store, We make getting O-Rings easy! and I can confirm they all fit and work exactly as intended.
So, in review, here are the parts needed for this service:
Outer air can: x3 size 135 o-rings

Gold air piston: size 129 quad ring, x2 size 129 split ring Teflon back up rings, size 026 o-ring to seal the air piston on the inner seal head.
Bottom cap: Size AN-13 wiper seal (AN style wiper seal 1.25"ID x 1.528" OD x 0.107" Height), size 031 o-ring, size 124 quad ring, size 123 split ring Teflon back up ring.
The oil damper is completely separate from the air can system. That is what is left inside the stanchion once you remove the air piston and then the bottom cap. Pushing up and down on the piston shaft was like butter. No reason to either send it in for service or attempt it myself. Easily the smoothest damper I've ever felt. We'll see what it feels like next time I need to do an air can service.
To put it back together, just go in reverse order. You need to put on the bottom cap first. Take care getting the quad ring on the bottom cap around the stanchion. It won't go on easily. Take your time. Use a small hex wrench to push the 2 lips of the quad ring over the stanchion as you push down on the bottom cap. Secure the air piston. Install the inner air can sleeve over the air piston, but do not screw it onto the bottom cap yet. Put the piston shaft back into the vise with aluminum soft jaws and screw on the top cap first. At this point, I put the top cap into my vise and use the BB tool to screw together the bottom and top cap onto the center section. I used slick honey on all the o-rings and quad rings along with putting a thin layer on the inside of the air can where the air piston would be going up and down.

Hope this helps anyone looking to do the air can service themselves.

Cane Creek Double Barrel vacuum bleed:

I did this to my CCDB Air CS for my Specialized Enduro, but this procedure will work for any of the Cane Creek Double Barrel shocks with exception to the new inline. Maybe it will work on an inline, but I haven't had one open yet or even in my hands so I have no idea. In addition, the o-ring sizes around the adjusters may not be the same size across all ranges of double barrel shocks. I just know these are the ones that worked on my shock. Lastly, this gets a bit involved, so proceed at your own risk. My guess is if you are reading this, you are like me and either don't have a warranty anymore, don't feel like waiting on someone else to rebuild your shock or don't feel like handing over almost $200 to complete a 40 minute job (once of course you have the equipment and know what you are doing&#8230;. Which should take approximately one time to have that).
Ok, so where to start? 
About 25 hours after rebuilding my air can, my shock started to act funny. It felt like it had no damping. Sure enough, I released all air pressure and felt air gurgling around in the damper. I was fairly certain the o-rings and quad rings had just given out and fell apart. Turns out, I was correct. Here's my shock in pieces.


I let the oil I removed from the shock settle for a while since it looked very cloudy. I soon discovered why after inspecting it the next day.


O-ring Scuz. Once this happens, they need to be replaced. They may look ok to the naked eye, but they'll never hold a seal if your oil is filled with bits and pieces of o-ring that have worn away.
So, the vacuum bleed procedure was posted later on in this thread and got me thinking about doing this myself. It provided a ton of information to allow one to do this on their own. Most notably, the procedure informs you to use 150-175psi in the IFP chamber, and it gives you information on the Ohlins shock oil that is used in the DB. In addition, someone also posted that Silkolene 2.5wt is a good substitute for the Ohlins oil. I went in this direction with the Silkolene due to the fact that I was having a difficult time sourcing the Ohlins shock oil.
Secondly, even after I got my plan of action down on paper, I was still missing a very key component: the bleed adapter. I needed a shock bleed adapter that fit a 4mm, 0.7mm pitch thread in the top of the DB shock. I could not find the Ohlins adapter anywhere. Multiple sites sold other Ohlins adapters for motocross shocks, but not the small one for the DB. Thankfully, Racetech sells a M4, 0.7mm pitch adapter!


Perfect fit!!!


Unfortunately, this adapter doesn't come cheap. It cost me $33, shipped&#8230;. But I can't do this procedure without it. Just go to Race Tech Suspension. Their online store isn't really set up to take orders. I had to call them to put in this order to get the adapter. No matter, it's a nice quality piece and it should last me forever assuming I don't bump into it while it is screwed into my shock and snap off the M4 threads.
Funny enough, I thought my troubles were over until I tried to fit my vacuum system to the other side of this adapter. I was having some trouble figuring out the size, until I screwed it into this thread at Home Depot.


That's ¼" FLARE. Yes, it is a FLARE connection. Not NPT pipe threads, not compression fitting, but sure enough, flare. I am in disagreement with this choice by Racetech, but it is what it is and I needed to find a way to get this threaded connection to hook up to my vacuum system where I'm using push to connect tubing. Thankfully, the nice folks at Home Depot made a fitting for me with some copper tubing and two female ¼" flare ends.


A male ¼" flare to male ¼" NPT union mated to a ¼" female NPT to ¼" push to connect tubing and I was in business! 
Next, I had to put together my vacuum system. I cannot take credit for this design as I saw a video on youtube. Some guy makes them and sells them for $300 (without a vacuum pump) and that actually is a pretty good deal considering the price of other units I've seen, but as I watched the video, I started to recognize a lot of the parts used in the design. I thought I could just put it together myself, and so I did. 
The price of this whole system will vary depending on what you already have available to you, but I want to say I spent around $300 on this project. To make the vacuum bleeder system as I have made it, you'll need these parts:

A vacuum/pressure container
Pentek 158117 1/4" #10 Slim Line Clear Filter Housing: Replacement Water Filters: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Some fittings for valves and a gauge to hook up to said container
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006PKKXTM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BQUTBS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

A couple of valves for air pressure and vacuum
Smith-Cooper International 8141 Series Brass Mini Ball Valve, Inline, Lever Handle, 1/4" NPT Female: Industrial Ball Valves: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

A quality vacuum/positive pressure gauge
Winters PFQ Series Stainless Steel 304 Dual Scale Liquid Filled Pressure Gauge with Brass Internals, 30" Hg Vacuum-0-60 psi/kpa, 2-1/2" Dial Display, +/-1.5% Accuracy, 1/4" NPT Bottom Mount: Industrial Pressure Gauges: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scient

A push to connect tubing tee
Legris 6340 56 00WP2 LIQUIfit Push-to-Connect Fitting, Wye, 1/4" Tube OD: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Some ¼" (that's the size I used) transparent push to connect polyethylene tubing
Amazon.com: Watts XPEB 1/4-Inch OD by 100-Feet Boxed Polyethylene Tubing: Home Improvement

Now, you can more than likely get most of these parts from a hardware store. The remainder of the parts I haven't listed (push to connect fittings, NPT unions, air compressor fittings, Teflon tape, pressure relief valve, etc.) I had on hand, but I know at some point or another I got them at Home Depot or Lowe's.
Secondly, I had to make some modifications to the container. It already comes with two ¼" NPT female threaded ends, but I needed more to hook up another couple of things. So, I used a 7/16" drill bit and my ¼" NPT thread tapper and made a couple of more.
First, drill the hole


Then tap the threads


Next, I took a push to connect union and drilled out the backstop so the tubing could go all the way through it.




Then start putting together the parts to allow for vacuum and pressure to be isolated from one another.


Add in another push to connect union on the backside of the container (remember, there are two connections already on the container top), and I also drilled out the red pressure release button and put in a proper pressure relief valve. Here's the finished container.


You can see that the valves lead to compressor fittings. On one side I have my compressor hooked up and on the other, my vacuum pump.
Speaking of which, I picked up this vacuum pump


It was $80 on Amazon and had no problems pulling a 24" to 26"Hg vacuum.
Here is the final, completed setup.



The pressure tube (the one that will fill the shock with oil) goes into the top of the container and through the push to connect fitting down into the container and into the new shock oil. The vacuum tube goes into the backside of the container. In addition, I also put a valve on both the pressure and vacuum tubing lines. I just couldn't get this to work without being able to isolate those tubes when cycling between vacuum and pressure. Also, it helps to separate out the air bubbles to stay on the vacuum side and allow the pressure side to be liquid full.
Lastly, test your system before you do the actual bleed on your shock!!!!! Pull vacuum on your system, then close it off to the vacuum pump. Watch the pressure/vacuum gauge for 3 minutes or so. If the pressure starts rising, you have a leak. Do the same for pressure. Pressurize the system to 35psi or so. Close off the system to your compressor. Wait a few minutes. If the pressure starts to drop, you have a leak. Use some soapy water and find those leaks! Typically, it is simply not pushing the push to connect tubing all the way into the fitting or not enough Teflon tape on the fitting. 
So, now that the vacuum system is complete, it is time to rebuild the shock. Take apart the shock as listed in the DB rebuild manual. 
http://service.specialized.com/asc/Content/Service/Rear Shocks/Cane-Creek-Service.pdf
Make sure to release the nitrogen from the IFP chamber (as listed in the DB manual). It would be unsafe to take this shock apart without doing so. You'll need a needle system just like Fox shocks. Here is the one I use. It works great, and it is already set up with a shrader valve for a shock pump.

Fox Polaris RZR Arctic Cat Nitrogen Fill Adapter Motion Pro Style Needle O8 0075 | eBay

As you can see, my pump registered 115psi or so when I punctured the rubber cap. This makes sense that the chamber was filled with 150-175psi since obviously the pressure dropped to fill up my pump. This is a very small chamber so seeing a large pressure drop here was predictable.


Just because this pressure is now released doesn't mean you are out of the woods yet. As was discussed later in this thread, the air from my air can migrated into the damper. There was a TON of air in my damper. Be extremely careful unscrewing the internal seal head. As you can see, air bubbled out of my damper. Slowly and carefully unscrew the internal seal head. Once you start hearing air hiss, STOP. Just let the air hiss out slowly. It took about 10 minutes of it bubbling out of the shock.






Removing the inner tube of the twin tube damper (if you are inclined to do so) only requires the rubber back end of a pair of pliers, then pry it up. 


It isn't necessary unless you are looking to replace the o-rings in the top head of the shock. This requires you though to unscrew the stanchion and the IFP chamber from the top head. I skipped this part and will try next time, but I know it is going to be a pain to do so. 
The internal seal head has a quad ring hiding inside of it. I removed it using a 90 degree pick. Stab it, then carefully push down so you don't scratch the inner walls or the bushing.




Remove the gold end cap to the IFP chamber and pop out the IFP. I blew some compressed air into the stanchion and it shot out. I put a towel over the end of the IFP chamber to catch it. 


The threads in the IFP are again, M4, 0.7mm pitch. You DON'T need an IFP tool! Just get some threaded rod and make yourself a handle. You'll want it later to help cycle shock oil.
Lastly, remove all 4 of the damper settings. If you have a CS, remove that first to get to the damper setting screws.






I like seeing the mini-shim stack on the high speed fittings!


There is a small spring in the hole on the low speed needles. Don't lose it. That is what pushes the detent balls outward in the chamber so that you can feel the detents. Small parts here. Be careful.
Replace o-rings and quad rings after you spray everything down with isopropanol and clean it out. I'm sure not all of the old o-ring scuz came out with the old oil.
Now put your shock back together without installing the gold cap on the IFP chamber. The IFP however needs to go back in. After you install the IFP, make sure to put the circlip back in as well or the IFP will shoot out when you cycle oil. Screw in your threaded rod into the IFP now, too.
If you've gotten to this point, congratulations. You are in the home stretch. Time to replace the oil! I poured about half of my bottle of Silkolene into the vacuum/pressure container, but you won't even need half that much. I just want to make sure the tubing that goes into the container is always submerged in the oil. You can save what oil you don't use.
1.	Start by pulling vacuum on the shock. Open the container to the vacuum pump and the vacuum tubing line while keeping the pressure valves closed. Once the shock is evacuated, close your vacuum valves, shut off the vacuum pump (this is important or you'll burn up the vacuum pump), then slowly pressurize the container with your compressor. 35psi is plenty. Then slowly crack open your valve on the pressure tubing line.

2.	Oil will now shoot pretty fast into the shock. Hey, you did remember to test your system first and take care of those leaks, didn't you? If not, expect to have an extremely messy garage. Unfortunately, I know. I know in the worst way.
The shock shaft will extend as will the IFP in the IFP chamber. 
3.	Once this is done, shut off the valve to the air compressor. Pull the ring on the pressure relief valve on the container and drop the pressure in the container to 5-15 psi. cycle the shock a few times with the shock shaft and IFP. Make sure the shock shaft and IFP re-extend when you are finished. Close off both pressure valves and release the remaining pressure in the container with the pressure relief valve.

4.	Turn on vacuum pump, open vacuum pump valve to container, open vacuum tubing line valve. Air and oil will shoot back into the container. When finished, repeat steps 2 and 3 four or so times.
You'll never get the shock completely "perfect", but extremely close at this point. When you feel like you've gotten all the air out that you can get, finish with the pressure fill step, leave pressure tubing valve open, close off valve to air compressor and release the air pressure in the container. Now close the pressure tubing valve and remove the tubing from your shock at the push to connect tee.
So, why did I choose ¼" tubing? This is why.


The Shimano brake bleed funnel threads PERFECTLY into this tubing. So go ahead and do that. Pour oil into the funnel to fill it about a 1/3 of the way. 
Now, SLOWLY push the IFP all the way in. Oil and a couple bubbles of air will come out and into the funnel. Oil will gravity drain into the shock to replace that evacuated space. Cycle the shock a few times like this. Eventually, you'll get to the point where you hear nothing in the shock but oil. 
Push the IFP all the way in and pull it back out 5mm. 
Remove the bleed adapter and put the bleed screw back in.
You can cycle the shock now and it will only have the oil "swooshing" sound, HOWEVER, if you keep doing this, you'll start to hear air. Why? The orifices in these shocks are extremely small. When fluid passes through these orifices, it causes an extreme pressure drop on one side and a large back pressure increase on the other side. These small low pressure areas will cause the oil to flash and become vapor. This is what is referred to as cavitation. How is this fixed? Pressurize the IFP chamber.
Remove the circlip. Put the gold cap back in. Put the circlip back in. Make sure the black screw is in on the gold cap over the rubber cap or it will shoot out when you start pumping. Push the needle through the rubber cap and fill to 150-175psi. I think I put in 165 or something. I can't remember. Whatever it was, it worked. As was mentioned much later on in this thread, These rubber caps are fairly resilient. I must have punctured this thing 10-15 times while trying to figure this whole thing out. Worked perfectly every time. As of now, I'm not sure what I'll do to replace it. It is 7mm in diameter, but it felt very spongy. Much more so than the o-ring cord I picked up. I tried a variety of different durometers of different rubbers and nothing matched. Everything was much more stiff. I'm guessing it is Buna-N at a durometer of 30-50. I'm still trying to find o-ring cord that is 7mm in diameter at that hardness. 
No, I didn't use nitrogen in this chamber. I have yet to see a valid argument as to why N2 is necessary. 
Spoiler alert! It isn't. Will compressed air from your pump have a little water vapor in it? Yep. Will it have other gases besides N2? Yep. It is still 79% N2 and it will stay "consistent" for a while. Seriously, how often do you change the air in your air spring on your shock and fork? Maybe once or twice a season? Consider this IFP chamber pretty much the same thing.
Other than that, rebuild the air can like explained before and cut Cane Creek out of this process. Sure, it was more money up front than sending my shock away to CC, but my vacuum system will pay for itself by the next time I have to rebuild my shock considering the raw materials I need cost maybe $2. 
I'll try to answer any questions you all may have, and if you do go about doing this, best of luck. A little time and patience and you can be self-reliant with this shock or any other shock of this type.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

:thumbsup:


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## Tracer650 (Nov 19, 2012)

Nice guide


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

Excellent write up


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## zigzag84 (Apr 15, 2009)

Very interresting !!

I have a same problem whith my shock on my Pivot Mach6 after 8 month ride :madman:

I'm very :madmax:

Where do you buy this o'ring ???


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

zigzag84 said:


> Very interresting !!
> 
> I have a same problem whith my shock on my Pivot Mach6 after 8 month ride :madman:
> 
> ...


Here you go:



Laterilus said:


> I was able to find all of these parts at the oringstore.com


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## zigzag84 (Apr 15, 2009)

Oups don't see it !!


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## zigzag84 (Apr 15, 2009)

Hi

I dont undetstand exactly where the problème whith o ring and air loosing...

Can you explain me ?

Édit:

Ok i understand... This is the Quad rings :thumbsup:


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Man, this is a great thread. Well done, sir.


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## heatstroke (Jul 1, 2003)

Very useful post - thanks. I am about to do the same, but I would appreciate if you could post a copy of your order from oringstore, so that I can make sure I order the right items. I am struggling to find the quad rings and an-13 wiper seals. 
Thanks
Rich


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

heatstroke said:


> Very useful post - thanks. I am about to do the same, but I would appreciate if you could post a copy of your order from oringstore, so that I can make sure I order the right items. I am struggling to find the quad rings and an-13 wiper seals.
> Thanks
> Rich


Its the one I guess:

AN-13 AN Style Rod Wiper Seal 90A Urethane [ANS1250] : The O-Ring Store LLC, We make getting o-rings easy!


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## heatstroke (Jul 1, 2003)

Thanks Rick !, I was at Oringstore not theoringstore


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

I didn't think of putting together a list with links. I probably should have done that.

AN-13 dust wiper $1.24
http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=20348

Size 135 o-ring $0.07x3= $0.21

http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=367_23_24&products_id=1182

Size 129 quad $1.90
http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=367_111_114&products_id=4994

Size 129 split Teflon ring $0.95x2= $1.90

http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14_552_554&products_id=13089

Size 026 o-ring. $0.04

http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=367_23_22&products_id=1073

Size 031 o-ring. $0.06

http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=367_23_22&products_id=1077

Size 124 quad ring. $1.50

http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=367_111_114&products_id=4989

Size 123 split Teflon ring $0.61

http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14_552_554&products_id=13083

That brings the grand total price for a rebuild kit to about $7.46. Now, some of the super cheap o-rings have a requirement that you need to buy a minimum, but last time I checked, the minimum didn't go past a dollar. I think it is around $5 for shipping. I usually buy enough to make two or three sets of rebuilds since the shipping won't change much if at all. You should be able to put together 3 sets for around $28 shipped. Either way, it is way cheaper than the kits that are sold by the manufacturers.


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## heatstroke (Jul 1, 2003)

Thank you.


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## johnoats (Jan 25, 2011)

Great write up many thanks 
I'm happy doing an air can service 
The damper side is beyond my capabilities 
Your list makes it perfect thank again 
Just ordered 3 sets 
To uk 7 to 10 day postage 10 dollars 
Totall for three sets uk pounds £25. Give or take


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

johnoats said:


> Great write up many thanks
> I'm happy doing an air can service
> The damper side is beyond my capabilities
> Your list makes it perfect thank again
> ...


^Singletrackworld user with a sucked down shock?!?


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## zigzag84 (Apr 15, 2009)

Do you think shipping to France is possible ?!


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

I would assume there are shops in France or other places in Europe that sell these o-rings and quad rings. These are pretty standard sizes that are used for a variety of applications. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Just a quick update:

I now have 10 1/2 hours of ride time (actual moving time on the bike) on my CCDB Air since doing the air can service. I check my pressure after every other ride and the only pressure loss I see is what is necessary to fill up the shock pump (roughly 7 psi or so). No leaks to the outside and no air trapped in the negative chamber. I'm very pleased. The shock feels great like the day I got it. The damper chamber still works perfect without a rebuild as I originally suspected it would. I was already 95% sure that I had the correct sizes of all the o-rings, quad rings and teflon back up rings, but my real-world tests give me 100% confidence now. Test conditions were harsh as well. All riding so far has been in the winter. Temperatures for my rides have ranged between -1 to 40 degrees F (-18.3 to 4.4 degrees C). No shrinking of the seals to cause air leaks. In addition, I've hit multiple 3-4ft. drops on all of my rides. Some of the 3ft. drops were to flat. I know to many of you that doesn't seem like much, but I'm roughly 250lbs. geared up for the winter. That means I probably run a much higher pressure in my shock than many of you which is harder on the seals. Also, let's just say my knees aren't the most "supple" on my landings as I tend to allow the bike to do too much of the work. I've bottomed out a few times and I've definitely pushed this shock through all of its travel a lot. All is still in great working order.

I'll probably pop open the can again around 25-35 hours of use. I want to see if my modification to the air piston mount is working better than stock. My hope is that the increased length of screws will stay on tightly and not allow the shock to 'flex' so much through its travel. I think this will help save the air piston and quad ring around the piston in the long run.


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## Hermes475 (Mar 1, 2007)

My double barrel air is stuck down as well. Normally when I disassemble a shock or fork I let all the air out first. How do you let the air out if the negative chamber is no longer letting air flow into the positive chamber and the negative chamber has no schraeder valve. It sounds from your write up that you just unscrewed the air chamber and the air came out. Is that correct? I am afraid of stripping threads as I unthread the air can when it is still pressurized.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Hermes475, I answered your PM earlier, but I see you mentioned here that you were worried about stripping the threads on the bottom cap to release the air. You make a good point, but I don't think this will be a problem. There have been a variety of times ive needed to release air pressure this way on shocks, forks, and dropper posts. Ive never stripped the threads. The key I think is to go slow. You will get to a point where air can start coming out without it all blowing out at the same time. If you unscrew it slow enough, you will hear the air start to hiss out of the bottom cap. Stop unscrewing at that point and let the air slowly escape. You should be good to go once it stops hissing. Even if you do go fast and it pops, I still don't think it will strip the threads. Its pretty good machine work on these parts. They are robust and I know it has popped on me at least once when I was in a hurry.


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## Hermes475 (Mar 1, 2007)

Well I gave it a go and found it to be fairly easy. The hardest part was modifying a park tool bb tool with a hack saw. I still need to pick up a clamp for the damper rod and a heat gun but I have a few days before my o-rings and stuff gets here anyways.

If you are worried about blowing the air can off with a lot of force like fox floats are notorious for doing when stuck down, I can tell you it did not happen with the ccdba. You can just crack the seal enough to let air seep out without letting it blow open.

Thanks for the help.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

If you guys are gonna attempt to do this, please be extremely careful when unscrewing the air sealhead, if your BB tool slips and dings the air shaft, it's game over.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

tacubaya said:


> If you guys are gonna attempt to do this, please be extremely careful when unscrewing the air sealhead, if your BB tool slips and dings the air shaft, it's game over.


wrapping the shaft with a few rounds of electric tape helps avoid damage when removing the seal head.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Definitely a good point by Tacu, but really, that goes for any fork, shock or dropper post rebuild. Scratching the shafts puts the pneumatics and hydraulics at risk for leaks. There is nothing extra special on CCDB when it comes to air can service, only the vacuum method for bleeding the shock (which can easily be found online, just somewhat expensive for the parts unless you are good with DIY projects for making your own vacuum bleeding setup). Even with companies that do give you instruction or allow you to do your own service, it is still game over if you seriously gouge the shock shafts.


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## MarcusSommers (Sep 11, 2008)

There are lots of BB tools that fit without this hacksaw job. The actual shimano one for instance. And make sure your shaft clamps are well sized, because scoring that aluminum damper shaft is also going to result in a full damper rebuild. 

It does not require a vacuum bleed, although that saves about 10 minutes of bleeding if you have one setup. A syringe hooked to the bleed port via their bleed tool works fine. You can use their IFP depth tool and the damper shaft to cycle oil in order to get a good bleed. 

Releasing air from the neg chamber is nothing to be concerned about with this shock, it releases slowly as you unscrew it. 

When installing the top eyelet, do not screw it on tight. Just a little bit past finger tight with red lock tite. It is easy to crack the eyelet by over tightening.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

Laterilus said:


> Definitely a good point by Tacu, but really, that goes for any fork, shock or dropper post rebuild. Scratching the shafts puts the pneumatics and hydraulics at risk for leaks. There is nothing extra special on CCDB when it comes to air can service, only the vacuum method for bleeding the shock (which can easily be found online, just somewhat expensive for the parts unless you are good with DIY projects for making your own vacuum bleeding setup). Even with companies that do give you instruction or allow you to do your own service, it is still game over if you seriously gouge the shock shafts.


Having rebuilt quite a few Vivid coil and air shocks, I think it's more than likely that it is possible to bleed the CCDB shocks without a vacuum bleed machine. A bit more involved, but not too much. I own a CCDB, and I havent done a damper bleed. There are a few CCDB specific tools needed (piston seal head wrench for one) that I do not own. It's still more practical for me at this point to send it in. That may change soon thanks to people who create guides like this.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Changing/bleeding the damper oil is something I'd be interested in seeing. I've done a Roco air and a few RP23 and those were relatively easy. I wonder how difficult the CCDB would be. But since mine is still working I'm not eager to tear down mine just to find out.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Bing!,

Are you referring to the internal seal head (the gold colored "Plug" looking thing with all the holes in it)? The one that surrounds the damper shaft in my pictures? If so, that can be removed with an inexpensive pin spanner. This is the one I use to unscrew the internal seal head of my KindShock Dropzone dropper post:

http://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-SPA...4711966&sr=8-1&keywords=park+tool+pin+spanner

I'm pretty sure it also fits the holes on the internal seal head of the CCDB. If you don't have a pin spanner, a snap ring pliers will also work. I just feel more comfortable with a pin spanner. If it pops off the holes, it spreads back out and you have much less of a chance hitting the shock shaft with the tool. Then again, you can simply put some material around the shock shaft to keep it protected.

I've watched Ohlin's videos on vacuum bleeding and I have their procedure for doing it. I've also watch other vacuum bleeding procedures for motorcycle shocks. It seems fairly straight forward. A decent understanding of fluid dynamics can carry one through these procedures. I was looking at this a few months back and figured I could put together a parts list for about $250 to construct my own vacuum bleeding machine. Gotta love Amazon. Stuff is so inexpensive there. Sure, $250 is still a decent amount of change, but like I said at the start of this thread, I get a lot of enjoyment out of doing things myself and the more I can do on my own, the less downtime I have when it comes to riding.

If you (or anyone else) knows a good hand bleeding procedure, I'd love for someone to add it to this thread. Then it would be possible to completely service the CCDB at home.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

Thanks! I have the pin spanner. I just didnt have any confidence using it as I might wreck the seal head. I might just give it a try. In any case, I wouldnt start without a damper service kit. That is something we still have to get part numbers for. As soon as you twist that thang, even just a bit, I suspect you're gonna have to bleed the shock 

DAMPER BLEED

Having rebuilt a number of Vivid coils and airs, from seeing a lot of shock and fork internals, and reading thru the CCDB service manual, I am almost sure the Vivid damper bleed process is applicable, short of doing it for the first time.

The key is that there be IFP access, the IFP height must be known (I am not sure what the height should be if the Cane Creek IFP tool registers the 5mm gap stated in the manual, to set this manually, the height from the top of the IFP piston to the lip of the IFP body must be determined), the IFP pressure must be known (145-175 psi nitrogen) and you must be able remove the IFP piston by being able to remove the IFP body. From the Ccdb service manual, all of that is possible.

For the bleed procedure, check out steps 88 to 101 for the Vivid damper bleed here https://sram-cdn-pull-zone-gsdesign.../techdocs/2011-vivid-air-technical-manual.pdf

Note the following: 1) Not stated in the Vivid process but in the CCDB service manual is that CCDB knobs should removed, taking care not to damage the orings, if not being replaced, oil poured into the knob ports to limit air pockets, and the knobs re-installed before starting the bleed. Compression knobs must be set to full open for the bleed. Rebound knobs must be open, but setting is not critical. 2) the filling port will not be opened and 3) assembling the main shaft and seal head to the body will finish the bleed process skipping the vacuum filling process in ccdb manual.

This process involves quite a bit of oil spillage. About 20-40ml. The process of alternately filling the damper side and the ifp side with oil, and then pushing in the ifp piston to the proper height, thereby flowing oil in reverse, bleeds the valves. I have done it at least a dozen times, and I have never had a bad bleed.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Very cool! Thanks for the information. I'll definitely try this out when it gets time for a rebuild assuming I don't get around to making a vacuum bleed system.


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## trekmaster (Nov 20, 2014)

Vivid and db are not that similar


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## trekmaster (Nov 20, 2014)

...


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

trekmaster said:


> Vivid and db are not that similar


We are not talking about interchangeable parts here.

Both are dampers and with external IFPs, joined at the hip and both have twin tubes in the main body. Bleeding dampers is a matter of filling them with oil and having the least amount of air possible.

If you have ever bleed either one, or any shock with an external IFP, do let us know how the bleed process above would not work for the CCDB.

Alternatively, you could soak the CCDB in a tub of oil for 15 minutes to purge air bubbles, and finish the bleed in said tub. That would cost about 100 bucks worth of oil though, which would make the vacuum bleed machine practical


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Here's the bleed procedure for the TTX25, which is similar, if not the same as the CCDB Coil (only difference is lack of shims and different valving on the TTX25), which should also apply to the CCDBA. The procedure is very similar to the Vivid except air/nitrogen pressurization is done via a needle like on Fox shocks.

http://www.ohlinsusa.com/files/files/WSM_TTX25.pdf


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

Nice. As I surmised, the knobs will need to be filled by hand with oil. Thanks. That is very useful. Just the IFP height now and I think we'll soon see a few guys rebuilding their CCDBs based on info from this thread.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

bing! said:


> Nice. As I surmised, the knobs will need to be filled by hand with oil. Thanks. That is very useful. Just the IFP height now and I think we'll soon see a few guys rebuilding their CCDBs based on info from this thread.


IFP height for the TTX25 is 2mm from bottom. (Step 8.5 on page 19)
As for oil type: Öhlins Shock Absorber Fluid No. 309 (#01306-01) (13.7 [email protected])


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

the-one1 said:


> IFP height for the TTX25 is 2mm from bottom. (Step 8.5 on page 19)
> As for oil type: Öhlins Shock Absorber Fluid No. 309 (#01306-01) (13.7 [email protected])


Yeah, but that is the TTX. IFP height is damper volume and reservoir volume dependent. There is a formula, which I don't have right now.

The CCDB manual does say that you can measure the IFP height when you open the reservoir, and use that later in reassembly.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Lol. It never ceases to amaze me. I can never find this stuff. No need for the air can procedure I wrote up. This procedure has everything and then some! Great find! Good to know the ohlins part number for the adapter to the bleed port


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

I've only had some time to quick scan through the procedure, but it seems odd to me that they do a vacuum bleed then open the entire thing up and hand bleed? Maybe I'm reading this wrong. 

Maybe they are showing two different bleeding methods? Vacuum and hand bleed?


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Laterilus said:


> ...........
> Maybe they are showing two different bleeding methods? Vacuum and hand bleed?


That's how I read it, two methods. One for the shops guy with the equipment, the other for the guy in his shack


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

the-one1 said:


> That's how I read it, two methods. One for the shops guy with the equipment, the other for the guy in his shack


Which supports our thinking that a hand bleed is possible. That TTX find is similar enough to the Ccdb to safely form this conclusion. Great stuff.

Btw, I found a YouTube video of a guy who made a vacuum oil filling rig with a vacuum pump (85 bucks), a line to a compressor, a pressure vessel (under sink water filter chassis), a couple of gauges and some pneumatic valves. Seems possible to build it under 200 bucks.

I operate a small shock and fork service outta a home workshop. I can't get enough customers to rebuild their fox float RP cartridges to justify a nitrogen charge set up. I highly doubt I'll ever see more than 3 ccdb rebuilds a year. The economics just don't justify it for me. I'd be more interested in developing a hand bleed process.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Bing!
I'm cool with just using air (or somehow sneaking my shock into work and using the N2 here). If all goes well, I can pick up a bunch of those rubber pellets (or make them from o-ring cord) and change out the air every month. Doubt I notice a difference between n2 and air.


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## MarcusSommers (Sep 11, 2008)

Do not remove the IFP chamber. The IFP is threaded for a reason. 

IFP depth at factory is 7mm off the floor. But if you understand that shock, you would know that IFP depth and pressure (factory 150psi) don't make a difference on the dyno. 

Hand Bleed on DB is very simple, but you need to thread in the db IFP tool in order to cycle oil back and forth with the piston to purge the air into what ever you have threaded into the bleed port. But you can also make a much easier vacuum system from a few basic parts at Harbor Freight. They sell nice electric vacuum pumps as well as hand held units.

I know the main service center for DB used a hand bleed until at least the end of 2014. 

Bing, where do you work?


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Marcus, 

I figured that as well with the IFP tool. I'm assuming the tool is needed to keep the IFP stationary while you cycle the oil since the nitrogen charge volume isn't filled during the bleed. Trying to cycle the oil back and forth without the tool would shoot the IFP out of the chamber (I'm assuming). 

The tool itself looks like you could make a quick hack job tool. I would guess Cane Creek will not sell the IFP tool and even if they did, it would probably cost a ridiculous amount. Do you know what thread size the IFP is? I'm sure I could get some threaded rod from the hardware store to fit and make something to keep the IFP stationary during a bleed.

I ask because sure enough, my damper is now "gurgling".  

I popped open my DB Air a couple of days ago to check on the o-rings. I pushed the damper rod in and out and it sounded like garbage. I need to re-bleed my damper. We are all so close here to having every last bit of information that I don't want to send it in. I want to do it myself.


Speaking of popping open my DB Air again, I should mention my notes as they concern the air can. 

First of all, I made an error in my sizing for the quad ring that seals the stanchion on the bottom cap. I wrote in a size 124. That is too big. It should be a size 123. Bad error on my part. I apologize for anyone that has already purchased o-rings. I grabbed my bag of 124 size and noticed it was bigger than the original quad ring and the one I replaced it with. Again, the correct size for the quad ring on the bottom cap is 123. I'll change my pictures on the first post when I get a chance.

Secondly, my piston mod is doing very well! I think the increased length screws are securing the air piston to the damper assembly much better than stock. Each of the 3 screws made an audible "pop" when I loosened them up. No more self-loosening air piston!

In addition, the quad ring on my air piston is already starting to form some scuz!!!! I only have 25 hours on this set of o-rings from the first time I rebuilt the air can. I'm fairly certain at this rate I'll need to rebuild the air can every 50 hours for sure.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

I have another copy of the Cane Creek service manual labeled v2.0 and it says the bleed fitting is an M4.

The IFP tool I read somewhere is supposed to me an M6.

If you thread an m6 thread on the end of a marking gauge, youll have a decent IFP depth tool.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

MarcusSommers said:


> Do not remove the IFP chamber. The IFP is threaded for a reason.
> 
> IFP depth at factory is 7mm off the floor. But if you understand that shock, you would know that IFP depth and pressure (factory 150psi) don't make a difference on the dyno.
> 
> ...


Full time? Outside of the bicyle industry. I do operate a service and bike workshop specializing in suspension and hydraulics for people who can work with my schedule.


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## MarcusSommers (Sep 11, 2008)

Laterilus said:


> Marcus,
> 
> I figured that as well with the IFP tool. I'm assuming the tool is needed to keep the IFP stationary while you cycle the oil since the nitrogen charge volume isn't filled during the bleed. Trying to cycle the oil back and forth without the tool would shoot the IFP out of the chamber (I'm assuming).
> 
> ...


You can move the damper shaft all the way in and out, and the IFP barely moves at all. It absolutely won't fly out. It's imperative on a hand bleed to have something screwed into the IFP just so you can move it to cycle the oil back and forth. Moving the IFP all the way in and out cycles a ton of oil compared to the damper shaft/piston. As a side note, the piston and shims just act like a plunger. They are not flexing to add damping like a vivid or fox or anything else. All the damping is happening in the adjuster circuits.

Also, these shocks had several running changes in production resulting in different orings, mainly at the adjusters. So be careful, because what works for you will result in immediate leaks for someone else.

Also, check your damper shaft very close. I have never seen the IFP leak into the damper. But even the tiniest scratch on that shaft will result in air entering from the can. It's very sensitive to that type of damage.

Bing!, for a tool, picture a rod with a threaded end for the ifp, and two sliding pieces sized for the IFP chamber with set screws so you can set a marker at the correct depth and you simply pull back the rod until it stops then unscrew it. This lets you cycle it, and the pieces sized for the IFP chamber prevent it from going in crooked and leaking. After bleeding, simply set the IFP at 7mm from bottomed out, screw in bleed screw, and install IFP cap then its little retainer. Then charge around 150psi. During the bleed process you can test your damping adjusters and it's make sure you feel every couple clicks.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Marcus, you make some very good points.

Once I thought about it, you are absolutely correct on the IFP. The internal seal head would be removed while cycling the oil, so there wouldn't be that back stop causing more pressure on the IFP. The oil would have a fairly easy time passing through the main piston... and it needs to. I'm assuming that is where the air is coming out while you are cycling (looks like it from the pictures in the manual). Secondly, I also agree that you can cycle more oil by moving the IFP in and out. There are no ports on the IFP so any movement of the IFP will displace the same exact volume of oil through the circuits.

I am also in agreement with you on the o-rings for the adjusters. If I go the vacuum way, I won't be removing these adjusters. That would be my preference. The more I take apart, the more chances I have to accidentally slip and scratch something. I will say though that the air can seals should be correct for everyone. By dumb luck, I found a Russian bike shop site that has all the air can rebuild o-rings! 
???????? Cane Creek DB Air
I guess Cane Creek allows air can rebuilds over there? If you look closely at all the o-rings listed, you'll see the o-ring sizes (and also the teflon backup glide rings). Looks like I was pretty much on the mark..... all except for my second guess on the bottom cap seal head (the one that touches the stanchion). Looks like I was right the first time: The quad ring there should be size 124. I don't know where my head is sometimes. I currently have a 123 on my shock and that seems to work just fine. This brings up another point; there is a lot of variance in these rings. The specification ranges are generous and two different sizes that are right next to each other could easily look like the same size. Also, I noticed on the Russian website that I was wrong about the glide ring. It too should be 124.

I need to update my pictures, but it looks like MTBr did something to my original post and had them removed or something. I'll try to fix it to see if they come back.

Lastly, I came to the same conclusion you did about my poor feeling damper. I started to notice that my air can was losing air again, but there weren't any signs that my o-rings were going bad. I couldn't figure it out... then I came to the realization that my poor feeling damper was probably because the air from the air spring was migrating into the damper. You scared the hell out of me making me think my damper shaft is scratched. I swear I checked it really close before I put it back together last time I had it open, but now I'm going to open it again to make sure. I don't think my damper shaft is scratched though. I think the quad ring on the inside of the internal seal head on my damper has gone bad. That is what would be separating the oil from the air in the air can. Again, through my dumb luck, I happened across the engineering shop drawing for the DB last night. I need to upload it for others to see. You can clearly see a quad ring on the inside of the internal seal head right next to the bushing inside the internal seal head. The shop drawing also calls it out and measures it at 1.78mm x 7.65mm (size 011). That would make sense considering the damper shaft is listed as 8mm.

Now, I haven't actually measured the diameter of the damper shaft. It is possible Cane Creek has changed it, but that still doesn't change the fact that there needs to be a quad ring there around that damper shaft. I don't think it is possible for the bushing alone to hold that seal between the damper shaft and the air can. It seems reasonable to me that quad ring could be in dire straits... not from scratches on the damper shaft, but due to the other problems the quad ring suffered on my air piston. Lots of side load on the shock. In addition, I weigh 230-250 geared up (depending on how fat I feel like being). I typically run 220-240psi in my shock. That is a lot of extra strain on those o-rings and quads. This particular quad has a good 100 hours on it. I bet it is blown.

The only piece that I am still somewhat uncertain on the size is the rubber plug for the nitrogen charge. I think it is in the range of 5-7mm in diameter. I've purchased a bunch of o-ring cord in those diameters. I bet one of them fits. I'll crack open the damper once I have all of my parts ready to go.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

the rubber plug is likely the same as the fox pellet. they can be purchased from Fox suspension (trucks and moto) shops in a few sizes. theyre only a buck each. it wouldnt hurt to go original considering how bad cross cutting cord comes out.

i got a ccdb rebuilt last year. from what i saw, i can confirm there is at least two shaft sizes out there. shafts are sold at the shop at around 30 bucks each. mine was replaced like it was a wear item.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

bing, got a link for the Fox pellets? I've been using 90 durometer Buna-N.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Also, speaking of the price of parts, I started to convert the prices on the Russian site from rubles to dollars (I'm American, so that gives me a better idea of price) and those parts are very cheap, surprisingly enough. I would assume those parts would be the same price here or cheaper considering they don't have to be shipped over seas. Seems like all American companies increase their prices in other countries. If I were to mangle a seal head or shaft, at least all is not lost. They can be replaced. I just need some place to order. If my shop isn't allowed, I'm hoping one of you all know a place where I could.

In addition, I looked up a couple of prices for DB air rebuilds. I think I saw shock experts at $165 and shockspital at $175. Then of course I would have to pay for shipping there and back. No thanks. I'd rather spend $250-$300 on some equipment, more o-rings than I'll ever need, and maybe a mangled part here and there up front the first time over paying $200 every single year.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

Here, there are two kinds. FOX Shocks Air Valve Pellets :: Kartek Off Road Parts & Accessories


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## MarcusSommers (Sep 11, 2008)

Replacing anything inside that oil sealhead is tough. When servicing these shocks, I replace the whole sealhead, a rather inexpensive part. That tiny quad ring, wiper, and bushing are very small. Since the top of the damper shaft is threaded, it is easy to damage that quad ring inside the seal head when assembling the shock. 

I have rebuilt plenty of dampers, and only seen a handful of IFP pellets that needed to be replaced. I replace them anyway, because FOX includes one in their kit, but I have an original RP3 that I have charged at least 25 times without replacing the pellet. 

If you want nice gear, go to Race Tech. They have great needles, and a great "nitro gun." Get a regulator that can handle 600psi so you can charge any bicycle shock, and get some disposable needles at the pharmacy. Plenty of neat suspension tools on that website.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Depending on the pharmacy and state, getting needles from a pharmacy is near impossible without a Rx. I went to 5 pharmacies and none would sell me any. Walmart would but they were short diabetic needles. I had a buddy who worked in an old folks home who was able to get me all different sizes and lengths.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Plenty of different kinds of pharmaceutical types of needles on Amazon for cheap. That is what I did. I bought a pack of 25, 22gauge. I'm fairly certain that was the size of needle that came with the tool I bought to charge through the pellet. I already tested it out on my Fox RP23 on my other bike. It worked. I don't really care about using N2 for the IFP charge. Sure, air isn't as nice as N2, but I don't care if I need to change it every 6-8 weeks. It isn't a big deal to do on the Cane Creek. No way I'm going to notice a difference between nitrogen and air.

Marcus, I completely follow you on that quad ring. I can tell is nicely hidden behind that bushing. lol. Thankfully, I have LOTS of practice dealing with o-rings in very tight fitting spaces. In addition, I also agree that the threads of the damper shaft can easily rip that quad ring in the seal head. That also leads me to wanting to replace the quad ring instead of getting a new seal head every time. The quad ring costs $0.12. 

I took my DB apart last night again as you had me second guessing if my damper shaft was scratched. Thankfully, I can report it is in perfect shape. I'm 99.9% certain that I'm going to open this damper up and see black scuz in the shock fluid. I'm pretty much positive it is that quad that has broken down and lost its seal. I've seen this happen many times in my other suspension components and all of my hydraulic dropper posts. 

So, let's say that I cannot change that quad ring (entirely plausible). You say that you replace the seal head. Where are you getting these from? The only place I've found is that one random bike shop in Russia, and they don't ship to the US. Since Cane Creek doesn't want end users to service their shocks, I would assume they won't sell those parts to me. How are you getting them?


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

I restore vintage forks for people, and use a bunch of industrial parts when no service kits are available. Ive come across the same issue of o-rings melting or swelling in suspension oil.


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

Interesting thread. Lots of good info here. 

Wondering if anyone has opened the air can on an inline up yet. It appears to take a slightly smaller BB tool? I don't have a 39mm shimano tool like the Park BBT 29 to try, but maybe that's it? A traditionally BB tool is too big by a few mm. Or maybe it's some other completely different tool?


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

So, a quick update.

It's been a slow process, but I've been gathering all the parts I would need to put together a vacuum setup for bleeding the DB. I was correct in thinking that the internal o-rings and quad rings had blown out. Most notably, the small quad ring located in the internal seal head. MarcusSommers had suggested to replace the whole internal sealhead, but I was able to remove the quad ring on the inside of it without scratching anything. It is a size 109 quad ring. I have plenty of those hanging around since that is the same size quad ring used on the piston shaft of a Rockshox Reverb or KS dropper post. Marcus, I would agree that the quad ring on the internal sealhead is in a precarious position, but it wasn't as hard to replace as you might think. I've dealt with much worse. Took me 2 minutes to slowly coax a new quad ring back into the sealhead. Good thing too because I agree with you that it is very easy to damage when you re-install the piston shaft. Thankfully, that quad ring is very cheap so if I damage some when rebuilding, it won't kill me to replace them until I get it right with the rebuild.

Secondly, I should have all of my parts and vacuum bleeder ready to go by the middle of next week. The hardest part was finding an adapter to fit the DB bleed hole. Sourcing Ohlins parts has been a massive pain (or I'm doing it wrong). I was able to find some of the Ohlins adapters for motocross shocks, but not the little M4 adapter for the DB. Thankfully, it looks like RaceTech had what I needed and it should be arriving to me soon.
TSVM 01 Vacuum Master

There is a picture of their M4 adapter in the instructions to their vacuum bleeder. The adapter is an M4 0.7 pitch thread, and I was able to verify the same when I removed the bleed screw from my DB. I will be shocked if this adapter doesn't fit.

Other than that, I have a vacuum pump, cylinder container, and a variety of other parts coming that should make this a fun and worthwhile project. I'll post pictures and procedure when I'm done. I'm fairly confident this will work. Not saying I can't fail, I've had plenty of those, but so far, everything is looking very promising.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Pictures when you start working on it. :thumbsup:


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Ok, I'm finally finished and I'm pleased to say that it was a success! I prepared a quick video where I compressed the rebuilt damper multiple times. I jacked up the volume so you can hear the oil moving through the damper ports. the damper feels as smooth as the day I got it, and there is no air that I can feel inside. My damper had a terrible gurgling noise and notchy feel when it blew out due to all the air that seeped into the damper (the o-rings and quads were in bad shape). That feeling and noise is completely gone! It was an exhausting 3 week project but fun nonetheless... and especially since I ended up with the result that I wanted. I will edit the first post of this thread and add in my vacuum bleeder build, parts and vacuum bleed procedure when I get some time. For some of you, this will be worth it. For others, it may be easier and more cost efficient to send it into Cane Creek or one of the other certified shock rebuilders.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Ok, I finally had some time to type up the vacuum bleed procedure. I also added in what I did to build my vacuum system. You can definitely make this cheaper than what I did by getting a hand vacuum pump and setting up a fitting to use your standard bike pump. That would work just fine. Anywho, I hope this helps some of you and I'd be happy to answer any questions that come up to the best of my ability.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

All this info is listed in the first post of the thread as well. Just figured I'd throw it here too for those that just go to the last page of threads.

Cane Creek Double Barrel vacuum bleed:

I did this to my CCDB Air CS for my Specialized Enduro, but this procedure will work for any of the Cane Creek Double Barrel shocks with exception to the new inline. Maybe it will work on an inline, but I haven't had one open yet or even in my hands so I have no idea. In addition, the o-ring sizes around the adjusters may not be the same size across all ranges of double barrel shocks. I just know these are the ones that worked on my shock. Lastly, this gets a bit involved, so proceed at your own risk. My guess is if you are reading this, you are like me and either don't have a warranty anymore, don't feel like waiting on someone else to rebuild your shock or don't feel like handing over almost $200 to complete a 40 minute job (once of course you have the equipment and know what you are doing&#8230;. Which should take approximately one time to have that).
Ok, so where to start? 
About 25 hours after rebuilding my air can, my shock started to act funny. It felt like it had no damping. Sure enough, I released all air pressure and felt air gurgling around in the damper. I was fairly certain the o-rings and quad rings had just given out and fell apart. Turns out, I was correct. Here's my shock in pieces.


I let the oil I removed from the shock settle for a while since it looked very cloudy. I soon discovered why after inspecting it the next day.


O-ring Scuz. Once this happens, they need to be replaced. They may look ok to the naked eye, but they'll never hold a seal if your oil is filled with bits and pieces of o-ring that have worn away.
So, the vacuum bleed procedure was posted later on in this thread and got me thinking about doing this myself. It provided a ton of information to allow one to do this on their own. Most notably, the procedure informs you to use 150-175psi in the IFP chamber, and it gives you information on the Ohlins shock oil that is used in the DB. In addition, someone also posted that Silkolene 2.5wt is a good substitute for the Ohlins oil. I went in this direction with the Silkolene due to the fact that I was having a difficult time sourcing the Ohlins shock oil.
Secondly, even after I got my plan of action down on paper, I was still missing a very key component: the bleed adapter. I needed a shock bleed adapter that fit a 4mm, 0.7mm pitch thread in the top of the DB shock. I could not find the Ohlins adapter anywhere. Multiple sites sold other Ohlins adapters for motocross shocks, but not the small one for the DB. Thankfully, Racetech sells a M4, 0.7mm pitch adapter!


Perfect fit!!!


Unfortunately, this adapter doesn't come cheap. It cost me $33, shipped&#8230;. But I can't do this procedure without it. Just go to Race Tech Suspension. Their online store isn't really set up to take orders. I had to call them to put in this order to get the adapter. No matter, it's a nice quality piece and it should last me forever assuming I don't bump into it while it is screwed into my shock and snap off the M4 threads.
Funny enough, I thought my troubles were over until I tried to fit my vacuum system to the other side of this adapter. I was having some trouble figuring out the size, until I screwed it into this thread at Home Depot.


That's ¼" FLARE. Yes, it is a FLARE connection. Not NPT pipe threads, not compression fitting, but sure enough, flare. I am in disagreement with this choice by Racetech, but it is what it is and I needed to find a way to get this threaded connection to hook up to my vacuum system where I'm using push to connect tubing. Thankfully, the nice folks at Home Depot made a fitting for me with some copper tubing and two female ¼" flare ends.


A male ¼" flare to male ¼" NPT union mated to a ¼" female NPT to ¼" push to connect tubing and I was in business! 
Next, I had to put together my vacuum system. I cannot take credit for this design as I saw a video on youtube. Some guy makes them and sells them for $300 (without a vacuum pump) and that actually is a pretty good deal considering the price of other units I've seen, but as I watched the video, I started to recognize a lot of the parts used in the design. I thought I could just put it together myself, and so I did. 
The price of this whole system will vary depending on what you already have available to you, but I want to say I spent around $300 on this project. To make the vacuum bleeder system as I have made it, you'll need these parts:

A vacuum/pressure container
Pentek 158117 1/4" #10 Slim Line Clear Filter Housing: Replacement Water Filters: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Some fittings for valves and a gauge to hook up to said container
Anderson Metals Brass Pipe Fitting, Barstock Street Tee, 1/4" Female Pipe x 1/4" Male Pipe x 1/4" Female Pipe: Industrial Pipe Fittings: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
Anderson Metals 56101 Brass Pipe Fitting, Barstock Tee, 1/4" x 1/4" x 1/4" NPT Female Pipe: Industrial Pipe Fittings: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

A couple of valves for air pressure and vacuum
Smith-Cooper International 8141 Series Brass Mini Ball Valve, Inline, Lever Handle, 1/4" NPT Female: Industrial Ball Valves: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

A quality vacuum/positive pressure gauge
Winters PFQ Series Stainless Steel 304 Dual Scale Liquid Filled Pressure Gauge with Brass Internals, 30" Hg Vacuum-0-60 psi/kpa, 2-1/2" Dial Display, +/-1.5% Accuracy, 1/4" NPT Bottom Mount: Industrial Pressure Gauges: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scient

A push to connect tubing tee
Legris 6340 56 00WP2 LIQUIfit Push-to-Connect Fitting, Wye, 1/4" Tube OD: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Some ¼" (that's the size I used) transparent push to connect polyethylene tubing
Amazon.com: Watts XPEB 1/4-Inch OD by 100-Feet Boxed Polyethylene Tubing: Home Improvement

Now, you can more than likely get most of these parts from a hardware store. The remainder of the parts I haven't listed (push to connect fittings, NPT unions, air compressor fittings, Teflon tape, pressure relief valve, etc.) I had on hand, but I know at some point or another I got them at Home Depot or Lowe's.
Secondly, I had to make some modifications to the container. It already comes with two ¼" NPT female threaded ends, but I needed more to hook up another couple of things. So, I used a 7/16" drill bit and my ¼" NPT thread tapper and made a couple of more.
First, drill the hole


Then tap the threads


Next, I took a push to connect union and drilled out the backstop so the tubing could go all the way through it.




Then start putting together the parts to allow for vacuum and pressure to be isolated from one another.


Add in another push to connect union on the backside of the container (remember, there are two connections already on the container top), and I also drilled out the red pressure release button and put in a proper pressure relief valve. Here's the finished container.


You can see that the valves lead to compressor fittings. On one side I have my compressor hooked up and on the other, my vacuum pump.
Speaking of which, I picked up this vacuum pump


It was $80 on Amazon and had no problems pulling a 24" to 26"Hg vacuum.
Here is the final, completed setup.



The pressure tube (the one that will fill the shock with oil) goes into the top of the container and through the push to connect fitting down into the container and into the new shock oil. The vacuum tube goes into the backside of the container. In addition, I also put a valve on both the pressure and vacuum tubing lines. I just couldn't get this to work without being able to isolate those tubes when cycling between vacuum and pressure. Also, it helps to separate out the air bubbles to stay on the vacuum side and allow the pressure side to be liquid full.
Lastly, test your system before you do the actual bleed on your shock!!!!! Pull vacuum on your system, then close it off to the vacuum pump. Watch the pressure/vacuum gauge for 3 minutes or so. If the pressure starts rising, you have a leak. Do the same for pressure. Pressurize the system to 35psi or so. Close off the system to your compressor. Wait a few minutes. If the pressure starts to drop, you have a leak. Use some soapy water and find those leaks! Typically, it is simply not pushing the push to connect tubing all the way into the fitting or not enough Teflon tape on the fitting. 
So, now that the vacuum system is complete, it is time to rebuild the shock. Take apart the shock as listed in the DB rebuild manual. 
http://service.specialized.com/asc/Content/Service/Rear Shocks/Cane-Creek-Service.pdf
Make sure to release the nitrogen from the IFP chamber (as listed in the DB manual). It would be unsafe to take this shock apart without doing so. You'll need a needle system just like Fox shocks. Here is the one I use. It works great, and it is already set up with a shrader valve for a shock pump.

Fox Polaris RZR Arctic Cat Nitrogen Fill Adapter Motion Pro Style Needle O8 0075 | eBay

As you can see, my pump registered 115psi or so when I punctured the rubber cap. This makes sense that the chamber was filled with 150-175psi since obviously the pressure dropped to fill up my pump. This is a very small chamber so seeing a large pressure drop here was predictable.


Just because this pressure is now released doesn't mean you are out of the woods yet. As was discussed later in this thread, the air from my air can migrated into the damper. There was a TON of air in my damper. Be extremely careful unscrewing the internal seal head. As you can see, air bubbled out of my damper. Slowly and carefully unscrew the internal seal head. Once you start hearing air hiss, STOP. Just let the air hiss out slowly. It took about 10 minutes of it bubbling out of the shock.






Removing the inner tube of the twin tube damper (if you are inclined to do so) only requires the rubber back end of a pair of pliers, then pry it up. 


It isn't necessary unless you are looking to replace the o-rings in the top head of the shock. This requires you though to unscrew the stanchion and the IFP chamber from the top head. I skipped this part and will try next time, but I know it is going to be a pain to do so. 
The internal seal head has a quad ring hiding inside of it. I removed it using a 90 degree pick. Stab it, then carefully push down so you don't scratch the inner walls or the bushing.




Remove the gold end cap to the IFP chamber and pop out the IFP. I blew some compressed air into the stanchion and it shot out. I put a towel over the end of the IFP chamber to catch it. 


The threads in the IFP are again, M4, 0.7mm pitch. You DON'T need an IFP tool! Just get some threaded rod and make yourself a handle. You'll want it later to help cycle shock oil.
Lastly, remove all 4 of the damper settings. If you have a CS, remove that first to get to the damper setting screws.






I like seeing the mini-shim stack on the high speed fittings!


There is a small spring in the hole on the low speed needles. Don't lose it. That is what pushes the detent balls outward in the chamber so that you can feel the detents. Small parts here. Be careful.
Replace o-rings and quad rings after you spray everything down with isopropanol and clean it out. I'm sure not all of the old o-ring scuz came out with the old oil.
Now put your shock back together without installing the gold cap on the IFP chamber. The IFP however needs to go back in. After you install the IFP, make sure to put the circlip back in as well or the IFP will shoot out when you cycle oil. Screw in your threaded rod into the IFP now, too.
If you've gotten to this point, congratulations. You are in the home stretch. Time to replace the oil! I poured about half of my bottle of Silkolene into the vacuum/pressure container, but you won't even need half that much. I just want to make sure the tubing that goes into the container is always submerged in the oil. You can save what oil you don't use.
1.	Start by pulling vacuum on the shock. Open the container to the vacuum pump and the vacuum tubing line while keeping the pressure valves closed. Once the shock is evacuated, close your vacuum valves, shut off the vacuum pump (this is important or you'll burn up the vacuum pump), then slowly pressurize the container with your compressor. 35psi is plenty. Then slowly crack open your valve on the pressure tubing line.

2.	Oil will now shoot pretty fast into the shock. Hey, you did remember to test your system first and take care of those leaks, didn't you? If not, expect to have an extremely messy garage. Unfortunately, I know. I know in the worst way.
The shock shaft will extend as will the IFP in the IFP chamber. 
3.	Once this is done, shut off the valve to the air compressor. Pull the ring on the pressure relief valve on the container and drop the pressure in the container to 5-15 psi. cycle the shock a few times with the shock shaft and IFP. Make sure the shock shaft and IFP re-extend when you are finished. Close off both pressure valves and release the remaining pressure in the container with the pressure relief valve.

4.	Turn on vacuum pump, open vacuum pump valve to container, open vacuum tubing line valve. Air and oil will shoot back into the container. When finished, repeat steps 2 and 3 four or so times.
You'll never get the shock completely "perfect", but extremely close at this point. When you feel like you've gotten all the air out that you can get, finish with the pressure fill step, leave pressure tubing valve open, close off valve to air compressor and release the air pressure in the container. Now close the pressure tubing valve and remove the tubing from your shock at the push to connect tee.
So, why did I choose ¼" tubing? This is why.


The Shimano brake bleed funnel threads PERFECTLY into this tubing. So go ahead and do that. Pour oil into the funnel to fill it about a 1/3 of the way. 
Now, SLOWLY push the IFP all the way in. Oil and a couple bubbles of air will come out and into the funnel. Oil will gravity drain into the shock to replace that evacuated space. Cycle the shock a few times like this. Eventually, you'll get to the point where you hear nothing in the shock but oil. 
Push the IFP all the way in and pull it back out 5mm. 
Remove the bleed adapter and put the bleed screw back in.
You can cycle the shock now and it will only have the oil "swooshing" sound, HOWEVER, if you keep doing this, you'll start to hear air. Why? The orifices in these shocks are extremely small. When fluid passes through these orifices, it causes an extreme pressure drop on one side and a large back pressure increase on the other side. These small low pressure areas will cause the oil to flash and become vapor. This is what is referred to as cavitation. How is this fixed? Pressurize the IFP chamber.
Remove the circlip. Put the gold cap back in. Put the circlip back in. Make sure the black screw is in on the gold cap over the rubber cap or it will shoot out when you start pumping. Push the needle through the rubber cap and fill to 150-175psi. I think I put in 165 or something. I can't remember. Whatever it was, it worked. As was mentioned much later on in this thread, These rubber caps are fairly resilient. I must have punctured this thing 10-15 times while trying to figure this whole thing out. Worked perfectly every time. As of now, I'm not sure what I'll do to replace it. It is 7mm in diameter, but it felt very spongy. Much more so than the o-ring cord I picked up. I tried a variety of different durometers of different rubbers and nothing matched. Everything was much more stiff. I'm guessing it is Buna-N at a durometer of 30-50. I'm still trying to find o-ring cord that is 7mm in diameter at that hardness. 
No, I didn't use nitrogen in this chamber. I have yet to see a valid argument as to why N2 is necessary. 
Spoiler alert! It isn't. Will compressed air from your pump have a little water vapor in it? Yep. Will it have other gases besides N2? Yep. It is still 79% N2 and it will stay "consistent" for a while. Seriously, how often do you change the air in your air spring on your shock and fork? Maybe once or twice a season? Consider this IFP chamber pretty much the same thing.
Other than that, rebuild the air can like explained before and cut Cane Creek out of this process. Sure, it was more money up front than sending my shock away to CC, but my vacuum system will pay for itself by the next time I have to rebuild my shock considering the raw materials I need cost maybe $2. 
I'll try to answer any questions you all may have, and if you do go about doing this, best of luck. A little time and patience and you can be self-reliant with this shock or any other shock of this type.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Mini-update. 

I've been able to put my new re-built CCDB Air CS to the test with three 2+ hour rides. It is working great! I've released the air from the air spring after every ride to check the damper and it is still moving smoothly and has not let in any air. No question, I'll be doing this every time I need a rebuild for my shock. In the future, I'll eventually need a new piston shaft and internal seal head. I'll talk with my local LBS. Hopefully Cane Creek will be willing to sell those parts.

In addition, I have to report that the Silkolene oil works well, but surprisingly feels significantly thinner than the Ohlins. 13.6 cst doesn't seem to far off from 14 cst, but apparently, it is. I had to increase my low speed settings by 5 clicks, increase my high speed settings by 1/2 turn and increase my pressure in the air spring by 15psi. This made my shock feel like it did before. 

Considering how easy it is now to get to the oil, I may experiment here some. I noticed on Peter Verdone's website that Silkolene has a oil mix chart to achieve different viscosities. I'm pretty much at the bitter end of adjustment so I think it would be wise for me to increase the viscosity of my oil. Even past the stock 14 cst.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Very nice how you were able to get it done.


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## tkm16 (Apr 27, 2009)

Did you use any kind of oil as lubricant inside the air can? Iv always put a few ml of fox float fluid inside the can to keep things running smooth..
Also you dont happen to know the measurements of the o-ring on the threads of the internal seal head?


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Good questions. 

I use the same thing on every pneumatic service: Slick honey. Works great at sealing.

Also, yes, I do know the size of the o-ring on the internal seal head. I can't believe I didn't post that. It is a size 023

In addition, here are the sizes for the o-rings that I did not change. Namely, if you remove the inner tube (size 28mm x 1.5mm) and unscrew the stanchion from the top head (size 32.5mm x 1.5mm). Also, if you unscrew the piggy back from the top head (size 021).

I did purchase all of these o-rings even though I didn't change them out by removing said tubes. I did notice though that I could not find a 32.5mm x 1.5mm o-ring. In these situations, I buy a bunch of o-rings around that particular size. Sometimes a standard size o-ring will come very close to the metric size and will work fine in the same service.


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

To answer my own question and for future reference. I tried a modified BBT-29 tool and the spline pattern is not a match for the DB Inline air can. 

I made a 3 pin spanner instead with a PCD of ~42-42.5mm and a pin size of 3/16 and that seems to do the job just fine. 

Not really sure what the intended tool is from Cane Creek, haven't found anything cycling specific that look like it would do the job other than the BBT-29 which it definitely isnt...


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## MarcusSommers (Sep 11, 2008)

dberndt said:


> To answer my own question and for future reference. I tried a modified BBT-29 tool and the spline pattern is not a match for the DB Inline air can.
> 
> I made a 3 pin spanner instead with a PCD of ~42-42.5mm and a pin size of 3/16 and that seems to do the job just fine.
> 
> Not really sure what the intended tool is from Cane Creek, haven't found anything cycling specific that look like it would do the job other than the BBT-29 which it definitely isnt...


Cane creek makes their own tools. A specific seal head tool, an IFP depth tool and a bleed fitting.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Dberndt, I'm assuming this is for the inline? I didn't know it wasn't the same size as the db air. I also didn't know that there were other external bottom brackets that required tools like the bb29. Shows how much I know.... I thought all external bottom brackets used that same size tool, or at least all my external ones have been the same. I'm surprised that cane creek used a different sized bottom cap on the inline. Even they admitted that you just use a shimano external bb tool on that piece.


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

Laterilus said:


> Dberndt, I'm assuming this is for the inline? I didn't know it wasn't the same size as the db air. I also didn't know that there were other external bottom brackets that required tools like the bb29. Shows how much I know.... I thought all external bottom brackets used that same size tool, or at least all my external ones have been the same. I'm surprised that cane creek used a different sized bottom cap on the inline. Even they admitted that you just use a shimano external bb tool on that piece.


Yes, I'm talking about the inline. I believe everything will be smaller on the inline, including seal sizes, etc. As it has to fit in a significantly smaller package than the standard DB Air/Air cs.

Cane creek could have used an external BB tool on the air can but I think it would have meant a few extra grams, so I guess they went with a proprietary tool instead. Shimano makes the new BB size as an XTR or road? only thing at this point in order to save weight on bearings. I don't really know... I don't have said bottom bracket. They do include an adapter ring so you can use the standard BB tool with the new BB size with every whacky shimano BB you buy, so that's nice of them. But still it doesn't fit the Inline as best as I can tell.


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

First off thanks so much for this guide. It worked great. When doing the air can mantainance I managed to loose the white plastic piece that goes on the inner shaft. I didn't see it when I opened it up but I'm guessing it must have been stuck to the cap or something and fell off when I took that piece off. I put it back together and it works fine but when it bottoms it doesn't stop where it used to. It goes all the way down. In thinking it probably isn't a good idea to run like that and cane creek won't sell me one. Any suggestions? I was thinking of maybe making one out of nylon or something like that. All it does is keep it from total bottom out. Thanks


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Jimarin, I'm assuming you are doing this for the specialized DB. The stroke I think is 63mm and then stopped at 57mm. So yeah, you could take the difference of max travel of the shock and the travel of the Enduro to make a bottom out stopper.


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

Oh, that's only for certain shocks to limit them? Mines just a regular 8.5 that I bought from cc. That makes sense as I was pretty sure I didn't see that piece. It's just odd that now mine goes to full bottom and it never did before the service. Whatever the case, it feels better than ever. If I'm not missing anything Ill just ride it. Thanks for the reply.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Jimarin, glad you were able to figure it out and I'm pleased you found this guide useful. So far, I'm finding that my DB works just as good as new doing the rebuild on the air can and damper myself as opposed to sending it away. Far cheaper and way less down time. 

I was thinking about your first post and noticed that you said the shock was compressing farther than what it used to. Even though you don't have the white spacer, I'm assuming you would have had the thick o-ring around the damper piston shaft. If that is missing, that could be a reason why it is compressing more. That piece is important. It keeps the shock from harshly bottoming out the damper directly into the top cap. 

Speaking of the top cap, I've been skipping the step of re-applying red loctite to the threads of the top cap prior to screwing it back onto the damper shaft. This was a mistake on my part. I noticed the top cap started to unscrew itself from the damper shaft. That could have ended very badly. Thankfully I caught it in time. Reapplying the red loctite solves this issue with no problems. Also, it is in an easy to access area to hit with a heat gun to remove it again when you need to. Just a heads up to you all doing this procedure.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Factory calls for Blue 242/243 loctite on the eyelet, not red.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Factory can do as they want, and I don't necessarily consider blue to be wrong in this service. I think red in this particular service works better and it is easy to remove without damaging anything assuming you have a heat source.


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

I did put the thick o-ring back on the shaft. I'll open it back up and just double check that everything looks good. I went with the red locktite too. Figured it was there for a reason. 

Thanks


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## morandi (Jun 20, 2008)

Laterilus said:


> I didn't think of putting together a list with links. I probably should have done that.
> 
> AN-13 dust wiper $1.24
> AN-13 AN Style Rod Wiper Seal 90A Urethane [ANS1250] : The O-Ring Store LLC, We make getting O-Rings easy!
> ...


So if I want to service my air can on my DB Air for my Enduro 29 is this all that I will need in terms of o-rings and seals? I thought I read further down that there was a mistake on this list, but I just want to confirm. Thanks!


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Yes, that is the correct list.

The mistake I mentioned before was the size of quad ring on the bottom cap. I find that a size 123 or size 124 will work. As for the split Teflon ring there, I would have to check again, but I think ST124 is correct. Sizing those is a little different as there are 3 measurements to consider instead of 2. I can't guarantee that ST124 is the correct size for the split teflon ring. Thankfully, those rings rarely wear out. Just be careful when removing it. If you don't crease it or mar it, it will work fine.


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## Tim22 (Sep 11, 2010)

just to confirm. from post #71 it seems this list will Not work for the inline?


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Tim22 said:


> just to confirm. from post #71 it seems this list will Not work for the inline?


Correct. The air can o-rings and quad rings are meant for the original double barrel air and CS. The o-rings and quad rings for the oil change will work for the double barrel air, CS and the coil version of the double barrel. Granted, not all sizes will work for every single version of these shocks. There are differences from year to year on these shocks and sometimes from frame to frame.

I have not seen any pics yet of someone disassembling one of the new Inlines. Hopefully someone does soon and shares that information.


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

Laterilus said:


> ...I have not seen any pics yet of someone disassembling one of the new Inlines. Hopefully someone does soon and shares that information.


I keep coming back to this thread hoping someone would post Inline info. Did I miss the factory Inline manual already?


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## adi111 (Jan 1, 2012)

Ratt said:


> I keep coming back to this thread hoping someone would post Inline info. Did I miss the factory Inline manual already?


I also wait for inline service manual ...


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Inlines require many custom tools for servicing so you are extremely limited on what you can do without them.


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## Tim22 (Sep 11, 2010)

the users in the suspension forum and dropper seatpost threads seem to be able to do work arounds. If CC would post vids and sell tools I think mechanically inclined users could do most of the work involved. Don't you think?


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## adi111 (Jan 1, 2012)

tacubaya said:


> Inlines require many custom tools for servicing so you are extremely limited on what you can do without them.


I can make these custom tools in my workshop. but I need to know about the nitrogen pressure, oil filling (with or wihout vacum)etc.


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## sekiller (May 10, 2013)

I'm going to use this thread: Does anyone know whether I can use the same Parktool BBT-9 tool for losening the air chamber on DBInline? A can't crack it open for the world of it.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

sekiller said:


> I'm going to use this thread: Does anyone know whether I can use the same Parktool BBT-9 tool for losening the air chamber on DBInline? A can't crack it open for the world of it.


No.


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

Here are some pics from my Inline, which was no longer equalizing the negative chamber. It was stuck down ~7-10 mm.

Piston with scuzz on it: 








Piston quad thing and backup rings:








Backup rings are L shaped. Odd:








Quad ring picture and some damage in the center of pic:








Scuzz near the bottom of the air can:








The air equalization dimple:








Seal Stack in air can:








Wiper:








Markings on wiper:








Inner guide ring, L shaped again:








Air Can Quad ring:








Quad ring thickness, must be 100 series:








Air can Quad ring ID surface:








Piston quad ring ID surface:








Piston quad ring OD:








Piston Quad ring size, 100 series again:








Based on the above it looks like you'll need quad ring 122 and 126. Buna? Viton? Something else? Buna seems to be cheap and easily available, I assume that's likely whats being used in the first place?

Backup L-shaped rings I've never seen before and have no idea where you might source those.

Disassembly and assembly process is roughly the same as the DB Air excepting you'll need a custom tool to get the air can off instead of the BBT-9. The bottom end of the shock (the end with no adjusters) simply unscrews from the 8mm shaft. Use 8mm shaft clamps and a lot of care not to damage/scratch anything. Heat may be required for loctite, but I didn't see any evidence of Loctite on mine. Torx that hold the piston on appear to be t10.

I've cleaned up my scuzz filled shock, re-assembled. Will put in new quad rings when they arrive in the mail.


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## sekiller (May 10, 2013)

so where did you source the tool from? Or did you have it made?


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

I have a small lathe and mill so I made a quick tool myself. The pins appear to be on a ~42.5-43mm circle, 60 degree apart. I used junk 3/16" drill ends for the pins. I wasn't quite as precise as was required so one of the pins needed to be ground back ever so slightly to make everything fit nicely. It's not perfect but it does the job.


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

Well that was a fail. Got in 99 percent of my ride tonight then the shock stuck way down in travel. Seals are toast. New seals about a week away hopefully.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Probably because you damaged the quad ring on the air piston with the sharp border of the air can... that's why Cane Creek uses a tool to install the air piston.


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

tacubaya said:


> Probably because you damaged the quad ring on the air piston with the sharp border of the air can... that's why Cane Creek uses a tool to install the air piston.


It's possible but the reason I took it apart was that it was already sticking down so I don't think I'm going to take all the blame on this one.

I estimate these seals have about 100 hours ride time on them already so this isn't a CC quality issue, it's at or past the service interval already.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Nice work, man! Glad to see others add in some great information to the thread!

I'm with Dbernt, I highly doubt any extra damage was done to the quad ring than what was already done before. They don't last all that long in these shocks. Thankfully, they are cheap. That's why it is so frustrating to pay CC or others so much money especially if you only need an air can service.


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

Well the seals have arrived. Comparing side by side I think the big ring I ordered is likely too big. I'm guessing it'll work just fine (installs fine, looks fine...) but if I had to re-order I'd definitely consider a size 125 instead of 126. 

I had a crash last week and will be off the bike for at least a few more days so the first test ride probably won't be until late September. I'll report back with short term and long term results.


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## baotuan (Sep 1, 2014)

I have a question. My db air cs just lost some oil because uncrew lsc bolt. I have crew it and feel work ok. But i dont know should i add oil? In db air, the oil used for what?


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

The oil is used in the damping circuit. You'll need to re-add whatever oil was lost and bleed the damper. Realistically if you have to ask you probably just need to send it out for service.

The damper is not meant to be user serviceable. If you've lost oil, the IFP will have moved to compensate and now you won't have the right IFP pressure (probably none) which will cause cavitation when the piston moves. You're damping effectiveness and ride quality will likely be noticably decreased.



baotuan said:


> I have a question. My db air cs just lost some oil because uncrew lsc bolt. I have crew it and feel work ok. But i dont know should i add oil? In db air, the oil used for what?


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

I now have 2 good rides on my Inline with updated seals. It's been running great.

Some size 125 seals arrived in the mail. That is definitely the correct size. I'm running 122/126 and it's working thus far, but for future reference the correct sizes are 122 and 125.


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

dberndt
How stuck down was your shock? I doubt I could get your tool onto my shock. Going to to shop for spanner to unwind that nut but really afraid for the threads when this thing pops.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Ratt, do it slowly. You will get to a point where you will start to hear hissing. Stop turning. Let the air slowly leak out. I think the reason why people get such a violent pop is by going to fast. You can find that point where it is unscrewed just enough to where it won't hold an air seal anymore.


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## Tim22 (Sep 11, 2010)

dberndt, could you please post a link to the seals you ordered? I want to make sure I order the correct size. Thankx


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

Wow, that looks pretty stuck down man. Can you pump up the positive chamber and get some space in there? In my case I eventually dropped to about 50% of the stanchion showing with no weight on the bike. Having the shock installed in the frame and using the frame as a tool to pull the shock back up (pull up on the frame/seat whilst holding the wheels on the ground) plus putting 300psi in the main chamber got the shock back to full extension so I could safely dump pressure using the Schrader valve. 

Be careful, that looks dangerous.


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

Tim22 said:


> dberndt, could you please post a link to the seals you ordered? I want to make sure I order the correct size. Thankx


From -100 Series - 0.103 - 3/32 CS : The O-Ring Store LLC, We make getting O-Rings easy!
I bought QR-125 and QR-122. I don't think I can give a more direct link to each size.

They're size 122 and size 125 Buna Quad Rings.


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## blcman (Feb 1, 2007)

dberndt said:


> From -100 Series - 0.103 - 3/32 CS : The O-Ring Store LLC, We make getting O-Rings easy!
> I bought QR-125 and QR-122. I don't think I can give a more direct link to each size.
> 
> They're size 122 and size 125 Buna Quad Rings.


Good source dberndt. I have a DB Air on my DH bike and am getting another one as a replacement shock over the DB Inline on my HD3. 
Don't want to have to send them back in for air sleeve service.


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

dberndt said:


> Wow, that looks pretty stuck down man. Can you pump up the positive chamber and get some space in there? In my case I eventually dropped to about 50% of the stanchion showing with no weight on the bike. Having the shock installed in the frame and using the frame as a tool to pull the shock back up (pull up on the frame/seat whilst holding the wheels on the ground) plus putting 300psi in the main chamber got the shock back to full extension so I could safely dump pressure using the Schrader valve.
> 
> Be careful, that looks dangerous.


I only went to 200psi at first. After reading this I went to 300 psi and tried yanking on the rear, no joy. I did not look forward to unscrewing the shock with 300 psi in there so.... I do not recommend this method to anyone but I pulled the shock to the negative spring notch







I pumped the jack slowly with a ruler near by. After 2 coat hangers and a lot of force I got the shock to full extension and was able to release the air inside the shock.

I can't take credit for the tool. A friend of mine rounded the corners down on a standard BB wrench and got it to fit.







If you notice in the back ground my piston is blue, everyone else's is red. Anyone know the difference? I probably should have used grease in the shock but I did the Fox method and used oil (Redrum). I marked the negative spring slot on the can and pointed it up to keep the oil in the upper chamber as long as possible.

I got the shock in June 2014 and after almost a year it started to lose about 5 psi every 7-10 days. I ignore it till last week when it stuck down. Only rode it in the neighborhood so far and it is noticeably smoother and rides higher in its travel.

Thanks Laterilus for letting us Inliners hijack your thread and dberndt for guinea pigging your shock. Now waiting for the oil change post.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Red piston is an updated design, so I would suggest sending the shock in for service to get the newer air piston.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Ratt said:


> I only went to 200psi at first. After reading this I went to 300 psi and tried yanking on the rear, no joy. I did not look forward to unscrewing the shock with 300 psi in there so.... I do not recommend this method to anyone but I pulled the shock to the negative spring notch
> View attachment 1024255
> 
> I pumped the jack slowly with a ruler near by. After 2 coat hangers and a lot of force I got the shock to full extension and was able to release the air inside the shock.
> ...


Very happy to see the thread alive and well. 

I was glad to see all the DB Inline information come in. Lots of people now have one shock or the other, and in fact, since the DB Air has the same damper setup, this thread should cover all 3 of cane Creek's shocks. Way cheaper to do the rebuild yourself over sending it in!


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## adumesny (Apr 11, 2009)

Thanks for the post OP - I can hear something rattle inside (dbair on E29 bike) so I assume it was one of the 3 loose screw from air piston came undone. Nope. looks like I have a broken shaft! yike, I assume I can't get that part (and can't get a replacement white limited travel bumper which got squished) - beside I would have to do a damper service which is beyond my skills. Time to send it in ?


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

adumesny said:


> Thanks for the post OP - I can hear something rattle inside (dbair on E29 bike) so I assume it was one of the 3 loose screw from air piston came undone. Nope. looks like I have a broken shaft! yike, I assume I can't get that part (and can't get a replacement white limited travel bumper which got squished) - beside I would have to do a damper service which is beyond my skills. Time to send it in ?
> 
> View attachment 1026597


It's really broken. Send it in. It will need a complete service. Also, stop buying Specialized yoke style frames. Specialized breaks shocks.


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## adumesny (Apr 11, 2009)

dberndt said:


> ....stop buying Specialized yoke style frames. Specialized breaks shocks.


United broke my guitar ? 

guess I gotta read more about Spec and yoke issues - isn't it what you have ? hope the monarch+ I now have last longer.
Didn't want to use Spec as a company, but the enduro 29 is an hard to duplicate beast (coming from a bike with 160mm travel but wanting to try 29 after riding 26). Very few slack aggressive 29 and even fewer long travel.

apparently a few broken shaft on the coil version - looks like cc uses smaller diameter steel shaft than fox and others (ALU). Looks like a possible issue right there I'm having as well ? :madman:
"Fox is better than cane creek period" 



"Crane creek double barrel my ass" 



"snapping my cane creek double barrel" 



"CANE CREEK DOUBLE BARREL EPIC FAIL" 



 + 3 at Whistler that trip. Not good.


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

My impressions based on what I've read is that the specialize yoke seems to put more side load on shocks and in a lot of air shocks this leads to excessive wear on the air seals, as they become part of the sideways force path. There are pictures you can track down where some people have worn into the anodizing on the sides of the shock due to the side forces not being kept away from the shock.

It seems true that in some cases the CC shaft could be larger/tougher. But it seems like particular frames have issues braking shocks (any shock, eventually) compared to other frames. I'd point at least some of the blame at the frame designer for using the shock as a structural member (intentionally or otherwise).

All that being said, your failure is pretty crazy. I hope you're taken care of appropriately by CaneCreek.


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

Ok I got 3 weeks out of it and stuck down again. Sending it to Cane Creek this time.


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

Ratt said:


> Ok I got 3 weeks out of it and stuck down again. Sending it to Cane Creek this time.


Did you do new seals or what work was done to get the 3 weeks?


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

dberndt said:


> Did you do new seals or what work was done to get the 3 weeks?


Just replaced the quad seals on the piston and behind the dust wiper.


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Ratt, all the o-rings and quad rings are mass produced and fit within a certain specification range. That range is somewhat large for how small these rings are. In addition; they are also very cheap. There are going to be plenty of o-rings and quads that are bad the moment you put them in. Honestly, I expect 1 out of every 3-4 rebuilds (among all of my shocks, forks and dropper posts) will only last 2-3 weeks. I chalk it up to manufacturing variability. The stuck down problem rides solely on the quad ring on the piston. You might want to try to quickly change that quad out again before sending it in, but I certainly understand wanting CC to just get it done. Also, I find it very helpful to follow a small detail mentioned in the CC manual. They mention pumping up the shock to about 50psi and then cycle it a bit to charge the negative chamber, then air it up the rest of the way. This makes sense to me so that you don't start out with a shock that has 150+psi on the positive side immediately blast into the negative at atmospheric pressure when you first cycle it. I can imagine that would aid in un-seating the quad ring. Lastly, as Dbernt mentioned, he Specialized bikes do put excess side load on the shocks. Check out the first page of this thread. I posted a picture of my piston. You can see where the anodizing has rubbed away on one side. I attribute that to the Specialized side load. I wouldn't doubt over time if eventually the air can gets slightly out of round then causes air pressure problems.


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

Ya I am bothered by buying orings/quadrings without knowing the manufacturer. In the past (20 yrs ago) I favored Parker-Alpha seals. Was going to replace all the seals in the shock this time around but been busy at work lately and tacubuya indicated I may have an old piston in my shock so i figured I just send it for the update. There was no scoring on anything inside the shock or on the shaft. Shock is on an Intense Carbine.


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## baotuan (Sep 1, 2014)

What do this hole?


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

baotuan said:


> What do this hole?


I'm pretty sure a drill did that hole. Then they tapped it with threads and put a screw in it.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

baotuan said:


> What do this hole?


Do not tamper with that, ever.


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## haristheodoropoulos (Dec 21, 2011)

Laterilus said:


> Yes, that is the correct list.
> 
> The mistake I mentioned before was the size of quad ring on the bottom cap. I find that a size 123 or size 124 will work. As for the split Teflon ring there, I would have to check again, but I think ST124 is correct. Sizing those is a little different as there are 3 measurements to consider instead of 2. I can't guarantee that ST124 is the correct size for the split teflon ring. Thankfully, those rings rarely wear out. Just be careful when removing it. If you don't crease it or mar it, it will work fine.


Did you checked it again? Is it ST124? Also doesn't the teflon ring has to be the same size with the quad-ring and vice versa? Thank you


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Edit...

I've got everything on order to rebuild my shock, but it is a 2013 DBA CS. The Cane Creek guys told me there were a "few changes" internally between the newest version of the shock and this one. This will be the first rebuild the shock has received, so i'm debating whether I should send it to a service center for the initial rebuild to receive the updates. Can anyone offer any insight?


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

haristheodoropoulos said:


> Did you checked it again? Is it ST124? Also doesn't the teflon ring has to be the same size with the quad-ring and vice versa? Thank you


Sorry, didn't see this post. I've been super busy and did not check. My advise would be to buy both. They are very inexpensive and that way you know for sure you have the correct one. Like I mentioned earlier, these don't really wear out. You can crease them then they don't work properly.


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## haristheodoropoulos (Dec 21, 2011)

Laterilus said:


> Sorry, didn't see this post. I've been super busy and did not check. My advise would be to buy both. They are very inexpensive and that way you know for sure you have the correct one. Like I mentioned earlier, these don't really wear out. You can crease them then they don't work properly.


Τhank you for yor answer.Thaksfully a friend of mine just serviced his CCDB and i manage to check all the o-rings, q-rings and teflon back-ups. I am 99% sure that both the teflon back-up rings and the q0rings are ST-124


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## Jalleto (Aug 11, 2013)

Thank you very much. Nice job!!!!

I need to do service to my CC DBair CS. Please, someone can send me the service manual?

Thank you


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## haristheodoropoulos (Dec 21, 2011)

haristheodoropoulos said:


> Τhank you for yor answer.Thaksfully a friend of mine just serviced his CCDB and i manage to check all the o-rings, q-rings and teflon back-ups. I am 99% sure that both the teflon back-up rings and the q0rings are ST-124


I finished the service and the shock is back to action for 2 weeks now.Now i am 100% certain that the q-ring and the teflon back-up rings are size ST-124. I filled with oil and bleed the shock manually and not with a vacuum system.Results were great and i also checked it in a dyno test before i install the shock back to the frame. In the IFP chamber i put 165psi of N2


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## Jalleto (Aug 11, 2013)

What kind of grease you use for the service?
Could I use PM600 Military Grease?
Or silicone grease is better?


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

I typically use slick honey for all o-ring applications especially when it comes to maintaining an air seal.


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## haristheodoropoulos (Dec 21, 2011)

Jalleto said:


> What kind of grease you use for the service?
> Could I use PM600 Military Grease?
> Or silicone grease is better?


You only apply a very small amount of grease so a general purpose grease will be OK. PM 600 would be great


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

Anyone have any thoughts on why a DB Inline would slowly sink as you sit on the bike until it reaches bottom out? Once you get off the bike it returns to normal. If you just give it a few normal bounces it seems fine, but sustained pressure causes sinkage.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

dberndt said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on why a DB Inline would slowly sink as you sit on the bike until it reaches bottom out? Once you get off the bike it returns to normal. If you just give it a few normal bounces it seems fine, but sustained pressure causes sinkage.


Is the air pressure the same before and after your slow descend to bottom?

Do you have enough air?

Sorry seems like dumb questions but gotta start somewhere...


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

Yes. The pressure seems to be roughly the same once things have settled/rebounded fully. The rebound isn't fast...

250 or 300psi seems like more than enough pressure. 

It seems like logically this would be a leak between the positive and negative, which is only happenning at higher pressures created when someone is on the bike, then when you get off the IFP forces slowly return things to normal?


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

I would assume it's a seal problem then. Sounds like it may need to get sent in?


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Guys

As You're much more expirienced and my DBA is brand new.
Before i start battle with my local shop.
Is that normal that Climb sw brings almost no effect (beside light rebound dull)
Here vid examples.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Nice banshee btw. It's definitely hard to see a video and tell you if something is wrong. Maybe get a couple opinions from your LBS guys. Or ask your local forum chapter who they like the most, give the master mechanic a couple bucks for their opinion and you should get a good idea.

Knee jerk reaction does look like it's doing it's job though.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Thank You and..
The general issue i think is visible - way how it works with and w/o climb switch - almost the same.



Junersun said:


> Nice banshee btw. It's definitely hard to see a video and tell you if something is wrong. .


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Cane creek didn't design the switch to be super stiff though. Just enough to improve the wallowing and pedal bobs. The db coil cs switch was the instance where I felt major difference.

It's worth asking someone who can see your bike. If you want, cane creek customer support is pretty good, if you're willing to send in your shock, I bet they could inspect it for any defects.


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## baotuan (Sep 1, 2014)

I have some questions:
- What is the color of locker thread factory top cap on ccdb cs? Or what locker thread factory used?
- When to uncrew the top cap after heated?


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## Laterilus (Aug 13, 2010)

Haven't been to this thread in sometime but felt like I could shine some light on a couple of questions. 

Dberndt, definitely sounds like a leak between positive and negative chambers. Most likely it is the quad ring on the air piston as that one sees the most strain by far. I think the majority of the o-ring scuz is generated from that quad ring. I will say though that I had a recent failure that is scary but also hilarious. I'll have to find some pictures. My air piston exploded. Straight up, completely destroyed. I felt it pop on the trail and ended up having the same symptoms you explained. I thought it was the seals. Nope. Center of my air piston punched a hole right through itself. That will make more sense when I find the pictures to post.


Baotuan, there was a rep here that swore it was blue loctite, but that is not my experience with the 7 different DBs that I've had. Every last one of them required heat to remove that top cap from the damper shaft. Blue loctite doesn't require heat to remove. Also, I agree with CC for using a very strong loctite on that top cap. If you don't, it WILL unscrew itself during a ride. I know this from experience, unfortunately. I strongly suggest using red loctite on the threads of the damper shaft. It will securely fasten to the top cap. You'll need a heat gun to remove it again, but that is a small inconvenience considering the security you'll get from it.


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## baotuan (Sep 1, 2014)

I dont know what the oil bleed for db cs. Can you pls suggest me?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

baotuan said:


> I dont know what the oil bleed for db cs. Can you pls suggest me?


Stock (based on my own tests) appears to be Ohlins Shock Absorber Fluid #01306 13.7 cSt (@40C).
Silkolene RSF 2.5 is almost identical viscosity and there's a Ohlins-Statoil-Fuchs-Silkolene connection there.

Maxima 3wt and Motorex 2.5wt are also going to work nicely.


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## Tim22 (Sep 11, 2010)

Well my inlineair is stuck down again. The last time, 8 mo ago I was able to unscrew the can with a strap wrench, but I had to send it to CC for a full damper rebuild. I guess this time the got it on tighter. I have the quad rings, but I couldn't get the neg. end unscrewed. I tried to make a tool like in post #107, but it was a no go. Did not fit tight enough. Anyone else have a way to undo the air can when it is stuck? I sent it off to get fixed, but it bums me out to have to pay when I should at least be able to do aircan maintenance


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## baotuan (Sep 1, 2014)

Before bleed, what's point of screws (lsc, hsc, lsr, hsr) and climb switch? Should we clockwise to close for 4 or open full?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

baotuan said:


> Before bleed, what's point of screws (lsc, hsc, lsr, hsr) and climb switch? Should we clockwise to close for 4 or open full?


Bleeding is easier with all adjusters open. This is for all shocks.


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## baotuan (Sep 1, 2014)

What's size of gas fill plug for db air cs? Is it same size of db inline?


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## hlshakey (Nov 3, 2016)

baotuan said:


> I dont know what the oil bleed for db cs. Can you pls suggest me?


 This is from CC The Lounge "What we use for the oil bath is a few cc's of Royal Purple - Max Film. The seals otherwise are lubricated with Slick Honey. As long as the seals and everything still have the slick honey and a bit the oil bath left, it's probably fine to just reassemble, but it certainly won't hurt to add some Max Film back to it." 
On another note can someone confirm that for a DBInline an oil change can be done by hand following the TTX25 instructions shared in this thread?
Also for the seal change shared by dberndt, is a nitrogen charge required? Or for the oil change for that matter.

Also looking at this post https://www.canecreek.com/products/suspension/lounge/forum/gradeamount-of-oil-in-air-can 
For a dry shock a bit of max film in the air can should be okay. Does this mean just take the outer sleeve off (like putting a spacer in?) and spray a little in?

Great thread thanks all!!!


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

My Inline is ready for a full rebuild. 
Can anyone recommend one of the service centers over factory service or vice versa? In other words, what's the best place to send it to for a full overhaul?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tim22 (Sep 11, 2010)

I had good luck with Dirt Lab in Boulder. Shipping was cheaper than N.C. and quicker turnaround. Hope it lasts longer than the factory rebuild did. Didn't even make 75 hrs. Any way guys at Dirt Labs seemed to know there ****!


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

Tim22 said:


> I had good luck with Dirt Lab in Boulder. Shipping was cheaper than N.C. and quicker turnaround. Hope it lasts longer than the factory rebuild did. Didn't even make 75 hrs. Any way guys at Dirt Labs seemed to know there ****!


Thanks!
I've gotten a lot of trouble (and maintenance) free use out of my Inline. I'm hoping the rebuild holds up. I'll give Dirt Labs a shout.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

*Inline inner air can removal tool*

Just got the a cheapo printer last month (think: clone of a Magicshine clone) and just got around to drawing stuff up in Tinkercad (think: drafting with crayons). So total low budget 3d noob here. But I drew this thing up and put it on Thingiverse item # 1993363.







Not tested yet but it fits pretty good. There is a 2nd file with the tool about twice as thick. Tell me if it works.


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't have anything to add. I just want to say that this thread is just what I was looking for. :thumbsup:

I have a CC DBAirCS that needs minor servicing (e.g., seals, lube) and I'm going to do it myself. I'm familiar with servicing Fox and RS shocks. I was trying to send it in to CC for factory service, but they're not responding to emails and their V-mail was full so there's no way to contact them.


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## baotuan (Sep 1, 2014)

I just ordered from bike-component.de


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## theycallmeE (Aug 21, 2007)

*Dirt Labs???*



reamer41 said:


> Thanks!
> I've gotten a lot of trouble (and maintenance) free use out of my Inline. I'm hoping the rebuild holds up. I'll give Dirt Labs a shout.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey reamer41, would you mind giving a follow up on your experience with Dirt Labs? I too am in need of a rebuild and wanted to work with these guys, but was skeptical after my emails and calls went unreturned. Thanks for any information,

E


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## Tim22 (Sep 11, 2010)

I highly recommend them. Had a full rebuild in Oct. before the new parts came out. Lost aircan pressure and shock stuck down 2 mo later. Called them and they fully warrantied the shock and rebuilt with new updated internals. 1 wk turn around both times. 2nd full rebuild. I like Dirt Labs a lot more than I like the shock. Great when it works, but rebuild every 100 hr. is Expensive.


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## Tim22 (Sep 11, 2010)

Hey Ratt. I went to Thingiverse, which is kool site, but saw nowhere to order your tool. I was going to weld nubs onto a BBT-9 BB tool then grind down to fit, but would order yours in priced reasonable and I knew how to order. Looks good. I have found that the aircan definitely needs regular service, the damper can go longer. Thanks


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

theycallmeE said:


> Hey reamer41, would you mind giving a follow up on your experience with Dirt Labs? I too am in need of a rebuild and wanted to work with these guys, but was skeptical after my emails and calls went unreturned. Thanks for any information,
> 
> E


Unfortunately, I haven't had more than couple rides since I got my Inline back from DitLabs, but so far nothing but positive reviews at this point.

My one email to them was answered promptly. The turnaround on my shock overhaul was very, very quick. There wasn't any information with the returned shock as to what they did, so I'm going on faith. But the shock seems to be like new.


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## Tim22 (Sep 11, 2010)

I checked out bike-component.de but can't seem to find parts or prices on the site. Only place I have seen to order CC parts and it seems a no go I am in US, where are you located baotuan?


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## fracaxis (May 2, 2006)

Tim22 said:


> I checked out bike-component.de but can't seem to find parts or prices on the site. Only place I have seen to order CC parts and it seems a no go I am in US, where are you located baotuan?


https://www.bike-components.de/adva...p?filter_category_id=9003&keywords=Cane+creek

Just search for cane creek on their site. All kinds of stuff pop up in a variety of categories. I might have to order some CC parts myself. I love getting Schwalbe tires from them too. Great prices if you order enough stuff to cover the shipping.


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## baotuan (Sep 1, 2014)

Tim22 said:


> I checked out bike-component.de but can't seem to find parts or prices on the site. Only place I have seen to order CC parts and it seems a no go I am in US, where are you located baotuan?


Im from Vietnam. But if you live in US then simple than because US was listed in shipping form on bike-component. 
You should request a special order with bike-component. They will order from supplier of them and sell to you. You go to Cosmicsports.de and find the parts you need. Send the links you found by email to customer service of bike-component.de with subject: request special order. They will email you prices and items instock


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## Tim22 (Sep 11, 2010)

thanks to both of you. If you click my link you will see what I googled.


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## DarKmaN (Aug 2, 2007)

baotuan said:


> Im from Vietnam. But if you live in US then simple than because US was listed in shipping form on bike-component.
> You should request a special order with bike-component. They will order from supplier of them and sell to you. You go to Cosmicsports.de and find the parts you need. Send the links you found by email to customer service of bike-component.de with subject: request special order. They will email you prices and items instock


I went to Cosmicsports.de but just can't seem to find anything related to the DBir except for the shock itself, which is on sale. If it's not too much can you please paste the exact link to the black outer tube for example? Thank you!


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

Hi guys, I have a DBair CS with only 4 months of riding on it. I bought it as a take off shock and it was brand new when I got it. It recently got stuck down so I called Cane Creek and they said it needs a $160 rebuild.

I knew I would probably just rebuild myself unless they had an update to it like the inline does. I asked Cane Creek if they could look up if my shock needed an update with the serial number. I wanted specifics, they came back and said that there was a slight updated to tighten up tolerances but wouldn't tell me anything else.

Does anyone know what updates have been made to the DBair CS? Is it worth sending it in? I already have the shock apart completely and I am getting ready to order all new seals and oil for it. But if there is an update that will make it more reliable I am willing to pay the $160 to get it.

Thanks


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

Also, one more question, what is the height of the IFP from the top most part of the piston to the top of the piston staction? I hope that makes sense....if there is another way to measure it please let me know. Of course I took the whole shock apart and didn't measure where it was before removing the IFP.

Thanks


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## DarKmaN (Aug 2, 2007)

jmvar said:


> Also, one more question, what is the height of the IFP from the top most part of the piston to the top of the piston staction? I hope that makes sense....if there is another way to measure it please let me know. Of course I took the whole shock apart and didn't measure where it was before removing the IFP.
> 
> Thanks


You mean this? Not sure if they updated it since though...


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

@DarKmaN, thanks that is it. I did it to 5mm from bottomed out.

Just rebuilt my whole DBAir CS using this guide and it went well. Got it bleed using the manual method outlined by the original poster and worked perfectly.

I also forgot to note the position of the climb switch before I took the shock apart. Does anyone know how to clock the climb switch adjuster before putting the lever back on it? The adjuster has a dimple which I am sure is supposed to be lined up in a specific way.

You can see the dimple in this picture:


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

So got it figured out. You thread the adjuster in until it bottoms out. Then back it out 4 clicks or until the locating dimple you see in the pucture is at 6 o'clock. 

This will be the climb position. Put the lever back on (with a bit of blue loctite on the threads) in the climb position. Bounce up and down on the seat and you should feel much slower rebound in climb mode when compared to open mode. The adjuster should click at each end of the adjustment. 

Took it out for a ride at 24 deg f today and the shock feels great. Thanks to everyone that took the time to post info on this thread especially the original poster.


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## dbnickles (Sep 15, 2005)

Hey guys, I am unable to get my top cap off the damping rod due to the rod spinning, my question is the damping rod suppose to spin so easy or is something loose? I don't have anything to hold the damping rod with out scratching it up, so before I search for something just wanted to know if this is a common thing?

thanks in advance


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## sitzmark (Sep 21, 2014)

I had the exact same issue when I tried to service my shock, and it took a week of trying to unsucessfully unscrew the top cap before I hit on an alternative. After unscrewing the air can and exposing the piston shaft, I wound up unscrewing the 3 torx bolts to the air can bottom cap, slide the bottom cap up exposing the threads underneath.






then use the pin spanner to unscrew the inner seal head and remove the entire assembly.






Use a 3 or 4mm hex to unscrew the piston and shim stack






(remember order, I think it went large to small), exposing the circlip. remove the circlip by popping it out of the grove and toward the open end of the shaft and slide it off. I made the mistake of trying to force it right off, and wound up bending the clip. now you have access to the inner seal and tiny quad ring that is a PIA to replace.


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

I was able to water jet some wrenches for the Inline air can. I will be opening mine up this weekend to see why it blew up.

To get the profile I measured and modeled in Fusion360 and then 3 d printed some prototypes. After some tweaks I got it to fit nicely and water jetted some wrenches which fit perfectly. I 3d printed a wrench but the plastic was not strong enough to back the can out so I cut it out of steel.

Here is a link to the DXF file if anyone wants to use it:

https://grabcad.com/library/cane-creek-db-air-inline-air-can-wrench-1

I cut this out using a FLOW waterjet out of mild hot rolled steel that was .1215" thick with a tool diameter of .022". With these settings the wrench fits very nicely into the slots.

I have some extras so PM or email me if you are interested in one. If there is a lot of interest I can do a run of them.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

I was able to get mine off with just a strap wrench. Just cleaned the inner can with alcohol and twisted it off and on. No chance of messing up the top cap and you already need a strap wrench for the outer can. Get DIY tool.


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

alexbn921 said:


> I was able to get mine off with just a strap wrench. Just cleaned the inner can with alcohol and twisted it off and on. No chance of messing up the top cap and you already need a strap wrench for the outer can. Get DIY tool.


Did you do a full rebuild? Do you have a list of o-rings that you needed?

thanks


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

No. just pulled it apart to check if it had upgraded parts and re lubed it.


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

I got 2 DB inlines torn down. One had about 1 season of riding on it and worked perfectly, the other had just come back from Cane Creek from a rebuild and failed on its first ride after service with what sounded like air in the damping oil.

I tore both down and found that the inline does not use an internal floating piston to pressurize the damping oil, it uses a rubber bladder. The shock that failed had air in the oil chamber and shot oil all over my bench. Somehow the rubber bladder failed and the pressurized air got into the damping oil chamber.

You have to pull the top of the shock apart to get to the bladder, and that uses another specially sized tool.

I cut 2 tools for the inline, one for the air can which fits perfectly, the other is for the top of the shock to pull out the rubber diaphragm. The tool I cut for the top of the shock worked but I am not happy with the interface so I will have to scale it up an bit in the model and re-cut it for better fitment.

Other than that the only notable difference between the inline and the Air CS is that the seal head for the damping chamber threads into the inner cylinder as opposed to the stanction. This means that if you are unthreading the seal head, don't be surprised if the stanction spins with it also, this is normal as the sealhead unthreads from the inner cylinder (shock is a twin tube design).

Like the DB Air CS, you want to make sure you keep the high speed, and low speed adjusters for both rebound and compression separate because they are different in shape and springs they use.

When you are pulling the shock apart make sure you heat up the set screws to remove the climb switch, they have loctite on them and used tiny allen keys that can strip easily. With a little heat they come right out. The rest of the orings seem pretty standard but I have not had time to measure them all yet.

The info that I wanted to see if anyone can get is the pressure for the air chamber behind the bladder to pressurize the damping oil and specs or a source for the rubber bladder.

I found this site in Germany that has everything but I can't imagine this can't be sourced here in the US from an oring supplier:

Cane Creek Diaphragm für DB Inline - mountainbikes.net


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## Tim22 (Sep 11, 2010)

Nicely done! You are the 1st I have seen that has fully disassembled the inline. Please let us know when you have perfected the tools. Are you planning on selling these? And, a write up with pics for assembly would be awesome for all that have been getting hosed on repeated rebuilds from CC. Thanks, jmvar


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

Tim22 said:


> Nicely done! You are the 1st I have seen that has fully disassembled the inline. Please let us know when you have perfected the tools. Are you planning on selling these? And, a write up with pics for assembly would be awesome for all that have been getting hosed on repeated rebuilds from CC. Thanks, jmvar


Hi Tim22, yes I have a couple spares I can sell. PM or email me for details.

I will also have a forum set that we can just pass around. We would have to work the details out as a forum but I would like to be able to just mail it around to who ever needs it. The user would just have to pay shipping which in the US would be around $6-7 flat rate for both wrenches. This will keep the open source spirit of the forum keeping tools and info flowing for all our use.


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## Tim22 (Sep 11, 2010)

Ratt from post #151 was kind enough to send me a printed aircan tool, but said it may not be strong enough. Just had my shock in for warranty work after a failed rebuild, so I have not used it yet. The Ratt tool that is. The first time I was able to take the aircan apart with a strap wrench, but after sending it off for a damper rebuild, the next time I couldn't get the aircan apart. I am Not sending my shock for service again. I was going to buy another shock when it fails again, but now if we can get inside the damper, I will attempt to rebuild it myself. the pay it forward plan sounds good or I will just buy the tool for the damper. I will PM you Thanks jmvar


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

Tim22 said:


> Ratt from post #151 was kind enough to send me a printed aircan tool, but said it may not be strong enough. Just had my shock in for warranty work after a failed rebuild, so I have not used it yet. The Ratt tool that is. The first time I was able to take the aircan apart with a strap wrench, but after sending it off for a damper rebuild, the next time I couldn't get the aircan apart. I am Not sending my shock for service again. I was going to buy another shock when it fails again, but now if we can get inside the damper, I will attempt to rebuild it myself. the pay it forward plan sounds good or I will just buy the tool for the damper. I will PM you Thanks jmvar


I would be very interested in seeing what failed in your shock just after the rebuild.

Can you describe the symptoms?

On the inline I have on my bench, the rider described a grinding noise. I was expecting a dislodged damper shaft and a scratched inner stanction. However, everything in the shock looked perfect.

The grinding noise was air in the damper circuit that came from the air chamber at the top of the shock. The rubber bladder looks like it was pinched and failed.

To my untrained eye, it looks like careless reassembly was at fault. There are no moving parts in the space where the bladder sits. But the again, I am just a guy who likes to play with tools, fix, and make things.


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

I looked around online today to see if I can find a source for the bladder (diaphragm) and I couldn't find anything. I found a bunch of suppliers that will provide a custom solution but I am sure this is just an off the shelf item.

It is 1.5" in diameter, basically something like this but not as big:https://www.finditparts.com/products/505262/velvac-031033

Does anyone know where I can source something like this?

I am going to call Cane Creek tomorrow but I am not expecting much help from them.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

First generation inlines had a diaphragm problem. it would tear it just like yours is. The new diaphragm has a inverted dome to prevent this.
According to Cane Creek, the new dome-shaped diaphragm allows for greater clearance between diaphragm and valve body reducing chance of cut diaphragm which could result in pre-mature failure causing a cavitation issue.
Cane Creek DBinline Air Shock - Reviews, Comparisons, Specs - Mountain Bike Rear Shocks - Vital MTB
Try these guys for parts.
CJ SUSPENSION | Mountain Bike & Motor Bike Suspension Servicing-Intro


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

alexbn921 said:


> First generation inlines had a diaphragm problem. it would tear it just like yours is. The new diaphragm has a inverted dome to prevent this.
> According to Cane Creek, the new dome-shaped diaphragm allows for greater clearance between diaphragm and valve body reducing chance of cut diaphragm which could result in pre-mature failure causing a cavitation issue.
> Cane Creek DBinline Air Shock - Reviews, Comparisons, Specs - Mountain Bike Rear Shocks - Vital MTB
> Try these guys for parts.
> CJ SUSPENSION | Mountain Bike & Motor Bike Suspension Servicing-Intro


This is great info, that is exactly what it looks like, there are marks from the valve body on the failed diaphragm.


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## Tim22 (Sep 11, 2010)

had a full rebuild and 6 wks later it stuck down. I cound not get the aircan off with a strap wrench. Called and they said send it back. I did. that was about 2mo ago. The rebuild before the warranty, they said updated parts. They then said that they would warranty it with new updated parts? huh?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

You don't need the domed diaphragm to prevent them being cut. You simply need to bleed them with more oil so the diaphragm isn't continually contacting the metal underneath.
Dressing the sharp edges doesn't hurt either.

These shocks will be virtually impossible to get a good bleed result without a vacuum bleeder. Even with a vacuum and pressure bleeder they are difficult to get all the air out and require many cycles.

As far as IFP/bladder pressure. IMO Cane Creek aren't using enough internal pressure from the factory and as a result they suck in air. Go straight to 300psi.


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## Symion (Feb 6, 2009)

@jmvar 
How did you open the diaphragma chamber? I clamped the lower eyelet and used the original tool.
But insted of unthreadening the eyelet moved against the knobs.


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## DoubleHelix (Oct 13, 2010)

Need to replace the stanchion on my DB air. Shock dimensions are 200 x 57. The two outer tubes I could find are:

DB140960G

AAD1686

I assume the AAD1686 is just the updated black stanchion. Anyone have expertise on removing the stanchion?

Anyone have luck buying parts though an LBS? I used bike-component.de but it was very frustrating. They kept messing up my shipping address which took 11 emails before they sent me an invoice with the correct address which was more an issue with a language barrier so not a huge deal but when I received my parts they didnt send me everything and refused to ship the missing parts.


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## Symion (Feb 6, 2009)

Right, AAD1686 ist the new black version.
For removing you need a clamp, because the stanchion ist screwed into the black housing.

Try mountainbikes.net, they have a lot of parts and order everything you need.


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## Symion (Feb 6, 2009)

Counter tool for holding the body while removing the topcap and diaphragm:


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

Dougal said:


> You don't need the domed diaphragm to prevent them being cut. You simply need to bleed them with more oil so the diaphragm isn't continually contacting the metal underneath.
> Dressing the sharp edges doesn't hurt either.
> 
> These shocks will be virtually impossible to get a good bleed result without a vacuum bleeder. Even with a vacuum and pressure bleeder they are difficult to get all the air out and require many cycles.
> ...


Thought so. I've a CCDBA with ten hours use that's sucked in air, figured the IFP pressure and/or O-Ring on the damper rod was inadequate.


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## Nikita Likin (Sep 19, 2017)

Hi, there is a good DB inLine service manual, written by me. Сервис амортизатора Cane Creek DBInline / Блог им. mdhinnov


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## NorthCountryBoy (Aug 22, 2006)

Nikita Likin said:


> Hi, there is a good DB inLine service manual, written by me. Сервис амортизатора Cane Creek DBInline / Блог им. mdhinnov


Fantastic instructions there, even with google translate i can get a lot of good info from your post.

Do you have a list of the seal sizes for the DB air?

Have you experienced any problems during bleeding when you find air is drawn up past the shaft seal when vacuum bleeding?


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## Nikita Likin (Sep 19, 2017)

I have not only the dimensions of the seals but also the tool for maintenance. Can write to me on mail [email protected]


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## scrat64 (Jul 6, 2015)

Hi jmvar

*I downloaded the .dxf and transformed from inches to mm, so I could cut the wrench,
Do you know if the measurements are ok?
Thank you very much!
Sorry my bad english.....









Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Cutting the wrench is cool and all but using a strap wrench is easier and won't mar the cap.


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## scrat64 (Jul 6, 2015)

Yes, but a good friend want a wrench.....hehhe
Thank's 




Enviado desde mi Zippers Tab 9i mediante Tapatalk


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## Macho VLC (May 30, 2007)

alexbn921 said:


> all but using a strap wrench is easier and won't mar the cap.


This is for me) I need a wrench for an oil nut. I have an original made CCDB for an air can.


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## Macho VLC (May 30, 2007)

Thanks Man!


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## scrat64 (Jul 6, 2015)

Yeee MachoVLC!!hehehehd

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk


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## NorthCountryBoy (Aug 22, 2006)

Well I am posting to say a massive thanks to Nakita Likin. 
He posted above and when I emailed him he gave me the sizes for seals etc and a link to a very informative guide to serving. The bleed is far more simple with a bowl above the valve housing in place of the diaphragm. 
With this in place when the shock is cycled it’s easy to see the air being expelled. 
In conjunction to this I made a bleed port adapter. 
Be aware the thread on this is M4 x 0.5 and is a non standard size. 
I made a double sided C spanner using M4 cap screws as the drive pins. 
The head fits the top housing and the threaded end fits the air can. Simple
Not sure the easiest way to post some pics up here but I will if I can.


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## NorthCountryBoy (Aug 22, 2006)

okk


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## NorthCountryBoy (Aug 22, 2006)




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## dbnickles (Sep 15, 2005)

does anyone have any sources for purchasing the inner shaft, there is some good info in this thread which got me a great summer out of my shock..


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## NorthCountryBoy (Aug 22, 2006)

Have a look on some of the German bike parts web sites. This site sticks some dB parts the main diaphragm for instance is 8 Euro

Cane Creek Double Barrel Shafts DBAir, 216/63 Short Threads 1.5mm-AAD0284


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## Renzo7 (Mar 25, 2015)

Laterilus said:


> .


Laterilus, this was an extremely useful and well-written guide. Thank you so much for the time and effort you put into this! I've been able to give my air can a service thanks to your guide.

Sent from my SM-G900M using Tapatalk


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

A quick post to say I had a recent model DB inline apart the other day, one iwth the purple anodized seal head and the bigger air seal, 125, 126, whatever it is appears to have been up-sized to a 2xx series o-ring. I'm guessing a 219 as you'd still need to have the same OD as the air can hasn't changed.

Suspect this is probably the same on the db air ILs...


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

dberndt said:


> A quick post to say I had a recent model DB inline apart the other day, one iwth the purple anodized seal head and the bigger air seal, 125, 126, whatever it is appears to have been up-sized to a 2xx series o-ring. I'm guessing a 219 as you'd still need to have the same OD as the air can hasn't changed.
> 
> Suspect this is probably the same on the db air ILs...


The DBA is getting a updated air piston as well with a larger quad ring.


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## DoubleHelix (Oct 13, 2010)

Is the DBair getting updated seal head and piston head or is it just for the IL?


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

NorthCountryBoy said:


> Well I am posting to say a massive thanks to Nakita Likin.
> He posted above and when I emailed him he gave me the sizes for seals etc and a link to a very informative guide to serving. The bleed is far more simple with a bowl above the valve housing in place of the diaphragm.
> With this in place when the shock is cycled it's easy to see the air being expelled.
> In conjunction to this I made a bleed port adapter.
> ...


Looks like I'm late to this thread. Your images are gone.
Any chance you can give info about the bleed adapter M4x0.5? Where did you get it?
And o-ring sizes for the inline?

Thanks.


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## gregtherider1 (Jan 25, 2018)

Hi guys!
Does anyone have any source for ccdb inline parts? I need new diaphragm. I got one spare at local suspension dealer but they are now sold out and they dont know when will they got new ones...
I managed to perform a service thanks to Nikitas instructions. Sadly shock performed just for one ride then the new diaphragm tore again. I bleed it with a "cup" over the top, where diaphragm sits, expelled all the air out and then carefully placed diaphragm back. I filled the nitrogen chamber to 150 psi. Someone mentioned to go directly to 300 psi - did anyone try that? I guess I didnt bleed it well enough. Anyone have any source for bleed adapter? 
Thanks!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gregtherider1 said:


> Hi guys!
> Does anyone have any source for ccdb inline parts? I need new diaphragm. I got one spare at local suspension dealer but they are now sold out and they dont know when will they got new ones...
> I managed to perform a service thanks to Nikitas instructions. Sadly shock performed just for one ride then the new diaphragm tore again. I bleed it with a "cup" over the top, where diaphragm sits, expelled all the air out and then carefully placed diaphragm back. I filled the nitrogen chamber to 150 psi. Someone mentioned to go directly to 300 psi - did anyone try that? I guess I didnt bleed it well enough. Anyone have any source for bleed adapter?
> Thanks!


When servicing these you need to get enough oil in to offset the bladder off the sharp and lumpy bits in the damper head. If you have any air left inside (or not enough oil in) then the diaphragm will hit the lump and sharp bits and it's only a matter of time before it's damaged enough to leak.

Higher IFP prolongs service intervals by reducing air ingestion via the main seal. But that's not your problem here.


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## gregtherider1 (Jan 25, 2018)

Well yeah its possible that there was still some air under the diaphragm`s dome. I didnt do the bleding throught the port step since I didnt have the bleed nipple. 
Interesting is that diaphragm was torn aroud the outer edge. Maybe I cut it when I was reinstaling the top nut and eyelet since I had to realign the eyelet a bit..


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

I still didn't get to servicing my shock. This is what I was thinking. Does this make sense:

Start bleeding with a cup on top method to get most air out. Then get the rest of air out through the bleed port and inject a bit of extra oil so diaphragm is elevated.

For a bleed adapter, find some M4x0.5 set screw and drill a hole in it to make a DIY adapter. Is there an easier way to make one?



gregtherider1 said:


> ... I bleed it with a "cup" over the top ...


What did you use for that?


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## gregtherider1 (Jan 25, 2018)

I used a piece of waste water tubing. I think its 40mm in diameter. I put a little electrical tap on the bottom edge to ensure snug fit to shock and prevent leaking. Be very careful when you bleed the shock - no sudden movements as oil can shoot out if you re too fast! Also turn all the dials to open position.
Im on the lookout for a proper M4x0.5 screw now to make a bleed adapter.
I also made a wrench out of Shimano TL-FC32 tool to unscrew that top part to access diaphragm. I ll post a pic of that later when I get to it.


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## NETTA170 (Sep 20, 2010)

Hello,

Did someone already have the DBAIR [IL] o-rings kit data for the quad seals and/or other orings diameters?
In general, you need to replace just o-rings/seals without the white "backup rings".
the kit is very expansive, while you can buy o-rings very cheap...

Please measure and share data
I'll try to trace where to buy and share here


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

NETTA170 said:


> Hello,
> Did someone already have the DBAIR [IL] o-rings kit data for the quad seals and/or other orings diameters?


I have the DB Air IL disassembled and all o-rings measured. I believe there are various updates to the shock, so some o-rings have been changing between updates. Here is what I ordered from theoringstore.com. I didn't receive it yet so I didn't get a chance to compare them. I'll post if any rings don't match to originals.


AN-11-SH 1-1/8" Rod Wiper Seal (AN-11-SH)
AS568-023 B70 (NBR) Buna-N Nitrile 70 Duro O-Ring (B70023)
AS568-013 B70 (NBR) Buna-N Nitrile 70 Duro O-Ring (B70013)
AS568-024 B70 (NBR) Buna-N Nitrile 70 Duro O-Ring (B70024)
AS568-203 B70 (NBR) Buna-N Nitrile 70 Duro O-Ring (B70203)
AS568-122 Buna-N 70 Durometer X-Rings (QR-122)
AS568-219 Buna-N 70 Durometer X-Rings (QR-219)
AS568-203 Viton (FKM) 75 Duro X-Rings (QV-203)
1.5mm X 4.5mm (NBR) Buna-N 70 Duro Metric O-Ring (JIS S5) (N1.50X004.5)
2mm X 23mm (NBR) Buna-N 70 Duro Metric O-Ring (N2.00X023)
2mm X 42mm (NBR) Buna-N 70 Duro Metric O-Ring (N2.00X042)

The list does not include a bleed screw o-ring, which is 1.5x2.5mm metric, and doesn't include the climb switch, because I couldn't figure out how to get it out.

Does anyone know how to get the climb switch out of DBAir IL? I got a set screw out on a side of it to get the lever and LSC needle out, also got a set screw out from the body that I think holds the climb switch. But it still sits firmly in the body.


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## NETTA170 (Sep 20, 2010)

Great info ben_mtb,

Attached a picture I dig out from google...
seems to have quite a few threads on the needle.

From my technical experience, you better NOT tack parts out if
you have no confidence not to break'em 

BTW, could you say which o-ring goes where + quantity?

Cheers,


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

You were right, threads on the climb switch, and clicker pin was holding it. I pushed the clicker in with a blade and the climb switch unscrewed.

Regarding the rings:









IDDescSIZEQty1travel indicatorO-02312air pellet6.2x7.113air can quad ringX-12214backup rings-25wiperAN-1116hsc hsrO-01327lsc lsrO-1.5x4.528climb switchO-1.5x519bleed screwO-1.5x2.5110inside damper bodyO-024111oil seal headO-2x23112backup rings-213air piston quadX-219114inside air pistonO-024115air can sleeveO-2x42316topout shaft spacerO-203117oil seal head quadX-2031


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## NETTA170 (Sep 20, 2010)

Great job!, 
Very impressive! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Did you already verify the correct o-rings ordered Vs original?

Any Tips&Tricks or even maybe video how to rebuild the Air and/or Dumper side?

I assume that the dumper service will work (partially) for the "Coil IL" as well!

No one ever did so, for Cane Creek ... 

Cheers.


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

Awesome work guys. 

Any suggestions for the bladder?


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

NETTA170 said:


> Did you already verify the correct o-rings ordered Vs original?
> Any Tips&Tricks or even maybe video how to rebuild the Air and/or Dumper side?


No, the AN wiper is backordered.
Looks like the specialized cane creek service pdf file mentioned in post #30 is taken down. Nikita's blog post is still there and has a detailed procedure. From his post: 


Nikita Likin said:


> Hi, there is a good DB inLine service manual, written by me. Сервис амортизатора Cane Creek DBInline





link1896 said:


> Any suggestions for the bladder?


No, I think that's a custom part. One suggestion on this thread was to ask local authorized suspension shops.

BTW, there are two ebay postings right now for "unofficial" o-ring sets:listing 1 and listing 2.


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## NETTA170 (Sep 20, 2010)

*Korean Power point presentation for Older DB Air & Coil (no CS)*

Hello,
It might be useful if someone can translate it 

http://www.jagang.co.kr/system/shop/html/canecreek/canecreek sevice instruction(kr).ppt

Enjoy.


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

I found an English version of that manual (could be a revision difference or two) via some Google for 'pinkbike Cane creek double barrel air/coil service manual'

The link itself is a Google Drive link at the bottom of that post.


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## NETTA170 (Sep 20, 2010)

*Cane Creek reliability issues maybe solved - but have way to go on the service...*

Unlike Fox or RS, I think CC Business program lays a lot on Shocks/Fork services.

Even for the basic service, one should trace a "bizarre" specific tools, no manuals and Hard-to-find expensive o-ring kits.

Hereby forcing most of their clients to spend $160 for a full service every 100Hrs if you want to follow CC maintenance schedule, while the bike seating idle for two weeks or more.

At least, Thay should let a self basic air can service in a fair manner.

Very annoying Cane Creek!

:madmax:


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

Update on the o-rings. I got my order and started to assemble the shock. I'd say two metric o-rings could be ordered in a smaller size:

7) lsc lsr O-1.5x4.5, the original could be 1.5x4.0mm
11) oil seal head, O-2x23, the orignal could be 2x22.5mm

I assembled with what I ordered, however the original orings are slightly smaller. Maybe just order both sizes to if you want a perfect match. Everything else is exactly the same size.


----------



## NETTA170 (Sep 20, 2010)

*Cane Creek DB AIR IL 2018 O-rings data*

Thanks for the o-ring update!
:thumbsup:

Here is a link with all O-ring's data as a PowerPoint presentation :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fwd90pj1coa3e4g/Cane Creek DB AIR IL O-ring List.pptx?dl=0


----------



## NETTA170 (Sep 20, 2010)

*Cane Creek DB AIR Can wrench plan*

Hello,

Attached the plan for a wrench I made...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p6ko93qjny0df5z/Cane Creek DB Air can wranch.pptx?dl=0

On mine, I had to file the inserts slightly - so the plane been revised accordingly.
















Good luck!


----------



## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

Looks nice. What do you use to make a tool like this?

I cut couple of wrenches out of PVC like in the russian blog. They are very rough.
A PVC pipe reducer worked almost perfect for screwing in place of a diaphragm for initial bleeding. I took 4mm aluminium rod, used 4x0.5 die to make threads and drilled a hole through for a final bleed adapter. It worked well enough. I don't have a lathe, but with a lathe you could easily make a nice bleed adapter. And the last, I filed a PVC sheet into 4mm allen wrench and drilled a hole through and used that for IFP/diaphragm air pumping. I can attach some pictures if anyone wants to see, but they are very basic, as all I have is a hand drill.

BTW, I found one listing for a diaphragm https://airnshox.com/product.php?id=506 some EU site, not sure about US shipping.

Next I have a CC DB CS Coil shock, which is on my main bike that I need to service.


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

I haven't been active in this thread for a while as I did some frame swapping and my inlines don't fit anymore. But I'm thinking about more frame swapping this year and perhaps a return to inline land. Good find on the bladders. I may have to consider building a bleed/vacuum rig and try a bladder replacement in the near future.

I gave away most of my inline tools to a buddy who could use them last year, so I was thinking about doing another run on the garage CNC mill.

I attached some design images of an inline wrench, and topcap (for bladder access) wrench, as well as a wrench for removing the bottom of a db coil (not sure if these are common/available as another tools? I was unable to use a park tools pin spanner for that purpose).

If anyone is interested in some of these tools (or has other suggestions) I don't mind running 10-20 parts (I've no real interest in volume manufacturing) at the same time as I run mine let me know, the aluminum is cheap, the shipping is kinda terrible from Canada. I designed the tools to be used in a vise or with whatever really big wrench you've got as not having a handle on them reduces size and thus hopefully shipping cost.

The last time I ran these parts I didn't really take any pictures that aren't total garbage, so I don't have any spectacular samples, but I attached some images of my other parts so you can get a feel for what they look like/what the machine is capable of.

I'll give this until Say April 20th to see if there is any interest. To be clear the idea is, you pay material costs (a few bucks) + shipping (probably the most expensive part of this) + a couple bucks into the beer fund, and in exchange you get some db inline tools. Please discuss if interested, open to ideas. No one is planning to get rich on this scheme, just trying to help out those in the thread who have asked for tools.

Proposed:








Other samples:


----------



## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

dberndt said:


> I haven't been active in this thread for a while as I did some frame swapping and my inlines don't fit anymore. But I'm thinking about more frame swapping this year and perhaps a return to inline land. Good find on the bladders. I may have to consider building a bleed/vacuum rig and try a bladder replacement in the near future.
> 
> I gave away most of my inline tools to a buddy who could use them last year, so I was thinking about doing another run on the garage CNC mill.
> 
> ...


Count me in for tools. I was going to 3D scan and get milled up, if you've already done it, I won't reinvent the wheel.


----------



## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

So I mostly disassembled the CCDB Coil CS shock. I can't get the main or reservoir tubes out. There supposed to be an o-ring under each. Is it even worth getting them out? I heated it up with a torch and now I'm worried that o-rings a cooked. The manual pictures suggest to use a strap wrench. I have a similar wrench. It's hard to get a good grip on them and there is no way they are getting out. Any suggestions?


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## descenderone (Jan 30, 2008)

Hello, how much would shipping to Spain cost ?, I'm only interested in the two tools to disassemble the cane creek in line.
Greetings.


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## descenderone (Jan 30, 2008)

Does anyone know with what purpose they have removed the update of the blue piston change for the Cane creek Double barrel ?? How does it improve?


----------



## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

I have 2 prototype Inline/IL Air can + Bladder cap wrenches to give away. PM me, pay shipping from canada and you can have one. First come first serve.

More final units will show up on ebay in a few days.


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

Final version


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

Very cool! 

Come on everyone, show some excitement for a very cool DIY project. Cane Creek intentionally set out to lock end users and non authorised shops out of servicing these shocks, and dberndt has graciously donated time, money and love to the collective to help bypass this roadblock


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

You have a link to your Ebay store?

Any plans for something similar for DB Air?

Really cool, props to anyone who can produce something like that, mad creativity is always good to see in the world.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

ben_mtb said:


> So I mostly disassembled the CCDB Coil CS shock. I can't get the main or reservoir tubes out. There supposed to be an o-ring under each. Is it even worth getting them out? I heated it up with a torch and now I'm worried that o-rings a cooked. The manual pictures suggest to use a strap wrench. I have a similar wrench. It's hard to get a good grip on them and there is no way they are getting out. Any suggestions?
> 
> View attachment 1247128
> 
> ...


Did you have any luck? You prety much have to cook the **** out of the body to break the loctite, I don't do it unless it's getting replaced

dbernt-those tools look sweet! Would be keen if I didn't already have them all sorry!


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't have an DB Air and i've never had a go at my DB Coil as whenever it's broken it's been more broken than I can get parts to fix. But I was under the impression that both of those things are basically solved problems?

The DB Air uses a standard BB wrench, which presumably works fairly well. This is just a bit of a sideline/hobby for me, and I'd prefer to focus my time on problems that don't have existing solutions (available to us Joe Blows, solutions available to authorized dealers don't really help me/most of us.)

Let me know if I'm wrong on my assumptions about what's tools are out there/required.

My ebay store link is below, it's very basic, just a place to list what I've got available at the moment. I'm not trying to start a brand here. https://www.ebay.ca/str/dbcyclewerks


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Did you have any luck? You prety much have to cook the **** out of the body to break the loctite, I don't do it unless it's getting replaced
> 
> dbernt-those tools look sweet! Would be keen if I didn't already have them all sorry!


Johnny, yes I got them out and replaced the o-rings. I got Ridgid model 2 strap wrench and it worked nicely.

All the o-ring measurements from the first page for piggy-back shock (non-inline) were spot on.

For inline I found a place which sells 4x0.5 mm oil fill adapter. S4 Suspension - Oil Fill Adapters.

I don't have a vacuum bleeder. I just used rockshox syringe with bleed adapters and bled both shocks. It worked fine.

dbrent, the wrench looks nice.

I ordered one wrench from dbrent, so next service should go fast for both shocks, as all the tools, bleed adapters, and o-rings are sorted. I will post some pictures later.

This thread has been super helpful.


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## Agressivegeometry (Oct 13, 2017)

Hey, sorry if this was already answered in this thread but I ordered all the orings listed above and got inside the shock to notice the x-ring and two backup rings on the main piston (gold disk screwed onto the damper body) were not the same, note that my main piston is blue instead of gold. the x-ring is slightly thicker (assumming 200 series instead of 100) and the two backup rings are l-shaped and slightly thicker. does anyone know where i can get the backup rings at.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Agressivegeometry said:


> Hey, sorry if this was already answered in this thread but I ordered all the orings listed above and got inside the shock to notice the x-ring and two backup rings on the main piston (gold disk screwed onto the damper body) were not the same, note that my main piston is blue instead of gold. the x-ring is slightly thicker (assumming 200 series instead of 100) and the two backup rings are l-shaped and slightly thicker. does anyone know where i can get the backup rings at.


the blue piston is the latest updated version of the air piston that is more durable and less likely to leak. You can reuse that back up rings but replace the x-ring


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Oh and it's a 222 q-ring you want for the blue piston


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## bikeedit (Oct 14, 2018)

Awesome I’ve used all the info in this post to rebuild my cc dB air cs thanks to everyone! I’m wondering if anyone knows the ID and size of the inner du bush is it 8mm? I work in aviation and have access to a decent lathe, I am going to machine up an aluminium piece that holds a 2nd du bush (trimmed down to 5mm) that would be fastened on the outside and use 3 bolts that screw into the internal seal head. Effectively putting a du bush either side of the oil to air seal on the 8mm shaft similar to how fox does it, eliminating flex of the 8mm shaft. To allow room for this I will have to shave 5mm off the plastic bottom out bumper but should still have enough meat to reduce bottom out damage. So if anyone has any ideas as to how this will not work and information as to where to source the red du bush please let me know 😁


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## bikeedit (Oct 14, 2018)

Here's the first prototype not much room for bottomout plastic bumper so going to run a larger oring. I'll post down the track when she's had a bit of use! This should hopefully provide a more rigid shaft and better resistance to leaking. The DU bush isn't the best I could have used but I couldn't find any red in the correct size hopefully it doesn't wear the shaft time will tell.


http://imgur.com/aVl6pig




http://imgur.com/jHDI5kB


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

I have rebuilt a handful of these Cane Creek shocks with good results. 

However, I am always worried about sliding the damper sealhead with new x ring over the threaded tip of the damper rod. I have tried to cover the threads up with packaging tape but the added diameter would not allow the sealhead to slide past the threads.

How is everyone protecting the x ring when sliding it over the threads? Or are you guys just not worrying about it?


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

bikeedit said:


> Here's the first prototype not much room for bottomout plastic bumper so going to run a larger oring. I'll post down the track when she's had a bit of use! This should hopefully provide a more rigid shaft and better resistance to leaking. The DU bush isn't the best I could have used but I couldn't find any red in the correct size hopefully it doesn't wear the shaft time will tell.
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/aVl6pig
> ...


I realize I'm a bit late to the party on this one, haven't really been following the thread in some time. But you're going to get the 5mm from trimming the rubber bump stop?


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

dberndt said:


> I realize I'm a bit late to the party on this one, haven't really been following the thread in some time. But you're going to get the 5mm from trimming the rubber bump stop?


While I'm late to this as well...he'll get his 5mm as long as the shock stroke has the room for this: IE he has a 230x65 shock but on a bike that requires a 230x60 shock. CC will have installed a spacer in there to reduce the stroke.


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## Qachi (Mar 17, 2019)

Awesome thread, started out thinking mine just needed an air can service but after pulling apart the damper seems pretty aerated too.

Is it possible to clarify the additional rings needed for the damper side? 
Currently have listed

*Seal Head*:
Q109 - Inner shaft 
023 - Outer head to damper body

*IFP*:
117 - Gold cap
Q117 - IFP main

*Adjustment dials*
1.5x4mm *2
1x4mm *2 
015 *2

Does anyone know the backup rings required for the new blue piston? 
Looking at upgrading from the gold one


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## bikeedit (Oct 14, 2018)

Yes I had the room as it's off a specialized enduro and the shaft has a 10mm spacer I replaced with a shorter plastic washer and oring for the bottom out. I run it really progressive( Standard air can and 2.5 blue strips, so resists bottoming quite well)

I Managed to get 10-15 hard rides (Tasmania-Maydena, Derby) on the shock after the modification, the dampening has stayed perfect and the shaft is still solid. I've opened it up and checked the shaft for damage Or wear and none can be found. The modification seems to be a success. I'll update if I have a blowout, fingers crossed!



http://imgur.com/JCfl1dY


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## hadato (Jul 22, 2019)

This is an amazing topic! I am really glad I found it. I am just updating to CCDB ILAir, but I was worried about the serviceability. I have been doing all the servicing on my bike (including the suspension service), but there were no manuals to be found for the CCDB ILAir. I was mainly worried about the long waiting times and the price of the official service.

This topic solved the problem except of the question of the bladder. It seems that the bladder can be acquired from https://airnshox.com/product.php?id=506. This should be the last piece to the puzzle of an accessible service on CCDB ILAir. Does someone have an experience with the shop?


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## descenderone (Jan 30, 2008)

Good afternoon, can you tell me how big the IFP camera has and the pressure that has to be put on a 222x70mm Double Barre Air. Greetings and thanks.


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## SkiMan5 (Dec 4, 2012)

descenderone said:


> Good afternoon, can you tell me how big the IFP camera has and the pressure that has to be put on a 222x70mm Double Barre Air. Greetings and thanks.


I guess it is for all sizes, from the manual, it should be 5-6mm from the head of the shock, other words from the bottom of IFP tube when it is upside down for oil filling.


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## SkiMan5 (Dec 4, 2012)

Hi folks,
I just got a set of spare parts for my cc dbair cs, an outer tube, a blue piston with set of seals and PTFE support rings.
I will do air piston swap on the next service. Questions. There is a bit of space between X-ring and support L-shape teflon rings, should I add additional flat thin support rings to make the whole assembly firm?
Does the new (black) outer tube make any difference in performance, or it is just cosmetics, and I can keep it for later if the original gone bad?


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

SkiMan5 said:


> Hi folks,
> I just got a set of spare parts for my cc dbair cs, an outer tube, a blue piston with set of seals and PTFE support rings.
> I will do air piston swap on the next service. Questions. There is a bit of space between X-ring and support L-shape teflon rings, should I add additional flat thin support rings to make the whole assembly firm?
> Does the new (black) outer tube make any difference in performance, or it is just cosmetics, and I can keep it for later if the original gone bad?


Not by blindly guessing.

There is an established science behind O-Ring and quad ( aka x ring) groove design.

Here's a taste of the design process.









Quad Ring Groove Design - Daemar Inc


Home >> Seal >>O-Rings >> O-Ring Groove Design Quad Ring Groove Design Groove Design for Quad Ring Installation RING SIZE CROSS-SECTION Dynamic Recommended Gland Depth … Quad Ring Groove Design Read More »




daemar.com





It's great to understand this, and not blindly throw new orings into a shock. When I first reverse engineered the Specialized Brain back in 2014, I was shocked to find o ring positions where the combo of bore diameter, groove width and depth fell outside acceptable values for dynamic seals, contributions to the general weakness of their seals. Fox published the drawings years later and their O-Ring choices clearly ignored reality.


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## SkiMan5 (Dec 4, 2012)

link1896 said:


> Not by blindly guessing.
> 
> There is an established science behind O-Ring and quad ( aka x ring) groove design.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the source. If I get it right for x-ring (AS568-222) of the new piston with 3.53mm CS the Axial Groove Width "D" shall be 3.94 mm. Actually, there is 3.53mm of CS + another 1.35mm...


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## bonniecycles (Mar 15, 2021)

Hello everyone! Any idea where I can get the bleed port adaptor in the UK?


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## SkiMan5 (Dec 4, 2012)

Qachi said:


> Awesome thread, started out thinking mine just needed an air can service but after pulling apart the damper seems pretty aerated too.
> 
> Is it possible to clarify the additional rings needed for the damper side?
> Currently have listed
> ...


If you are after dbaircs then the back up rings are L-shape, and I got a few alternatives at local shop (customly made) , but not an L-shaped. I've got very nicely fitted a solid rings with no split. A bit of work to snap in, but it is securely fitting in. The L-shaped rings feels a bit loose and tend to not fully cover the edge.
The quad ring is #222. The support ring ID is slightly bigger, can't measure it now, and OD is a bit smaller than the quad ring.

I hope it helps


----------



## JakeResnick (Nov 22, 2020)

Just a quick question for the people that bought there own seals and did the service, did you replace the backup ring above the 109 quad seal in the seal head? And if so do you have the measurements for it?

Thanks


----------



## bonniecycles (Mar 15, 2021)

I couldn't find any bleed port adapters or manual bleed kit systems in the UK so I got a few made by a local machinist. If anyone in UK or Europe needs any feel free to let me know.

I've listed the full manual bleed kit on Pinkbike so you can see some images of it.



https://m.pinkbike.com/buysell/3112156/


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

bonniecycles said:


> I couldn't find any bleed port adapters or manual bleed kit systems in the UK so I got a few made by a local machinist. If anyone in UK or Europe needs any feel free to let me know.
> 
> I've listed the full manual bleed kit on Pinkbike so you can see some images of it.
> 
> ...


That's a nice little kit. I ordered the bleed fitting from S4 Suspension in Canada but it doesn't work; it's too wide so it doesn't form a proper seal. I'm trying to see if I can trim it down with a rotary tool.

Maybe one day you'll ship a kit to... oh I don't know, North America?


----------



## bonniecycles (Mar 15, 2021)

Christopher Robin said:


> That's a nice little kit. I ordered the bleed fitting from S4 Suspension in Canada but it doesn't work; it's too wide so it doesn't form a proper seal. I'm trying to see if I can trim it down with a rotary tool.
> 
> Maybe one day you'll ship a kit to... oh I don't know, North America?


Thank you very much! Guess that's the benefit of having the tool made, I literally gave the shock to the machinist and told him what I wanted. Even told him to add flats for a spanner just in case.

Took me a while to work decide on the best method for the reservoir and I even got some small brass cups made but the syringe is much cheaper and easier to use.

Good luck with trimming yours down and let me know if you need me to look into posting over seas...


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

Christopher Robin said:


> That's a nice little kit. I ordered the bleed fitting from S4 Suspension in Canada but it doesn't work; it's too wide so it doesn't form a proper seal. I'm trying to see if I can trim it down with a rotary tool.
> 
> Maybe one day you'll ship a kit to... oh I don't know, North America?


Did you put o-rings on S4's bleeding adapter. I have it and used it last year. I connected it to a syringe with some vinyl tubing. I don't remember having a problem.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

I did but I think the base of the adapter was too wide and contacted the shock eyelet, so not able to form a perfect seal.


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

Now that I remember, I got a correct thread set screw and drilled it through. And used it instead, because I didn't have anything else at a time.


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## bonniecycles (Mar 15, 2021)

At least now people can get my one and know it works without any mods. Just plug and play!


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

I have some tinkering to do on one shock early next week (was leaking from the shaft at the seal head). I may hit you up for one of those kits.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Anyone know the size of the o-ring (or quad ring) in the seal head for the 9.5mm shaft?

My money is on size 110.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Christopher Robin said:


> Anyone know the size of the o-ring (or quad ring) in the seal head for the 9.5mm shaft?
> 
> My money is on size 110.


For a DB coil? Yes 110 is correct


----------



## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

Hi, have used all the info in this thread to rebuild several double barrel shocks.

Has anyone tried to open up the Kitsuma and catalog the seals and o-rings? Does it require special tools?

Thank you.


----------



## ruggero (12 mo ago)

Hi everyone
Do you know the pressure of the IFP chamber of the DB coil INLINE


----------



## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

ruggero said:


> Hi everyone
> Do you know the pressure of the IFP chamber of the DB coil INLINE


I believe the manual calls for 110 PSI, it was on the russian rebuild website.
But check post #183  where Dugal recommends 300 PSI.


----------



## ruggero (12 mo ago)

ben_mtb said:


> I believe the manual calls for 110 PSI, it was on the russian rebuild website.
> But check post #183  where Dugal recommends 300 PSI.



checking my coil inline i read 120 PSI, but on the net i found it goes to 110.
300 PSI seems like a lot to me, more than double


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ben_mtb said:


> I believe the manual calls for 110 PSI, it was on the russian rebuild website.
> But check post #183  where Dugal recommends 300 PSI.


300 is only for air-shocks. 200 is usually plenty for coils.

Cane Creek official pressures are much lower, IME too low to keep the air out.


----------



## ruggero (12 mo ago)

Dougal said:


> 300 is only for air-shocks. 200 is usually plenty for coils.
> 
> Cane Creek official pressures are much lower, IME too low to keep the air out.


I will increase the pressure to 200

thank you very much


----------



## ruggero (12 mo ago)

Dougal said:


> 300 is only for air-shocks. 200 is usually plenty for coils.
> 
> Cane Creek official pressures are much lower, IME too low to keep the air out.



Pressure flow to 200.
The shock is now more sustained and my orange stage 6 works much better


----------



## JRizzle (10 mo ago)

Has anyone needed to replace this brown piece on the damper shaft? Mine is disintegrating. I assume it is to cushion top out, wondering if neoprene would work.










Also a point of interest. In all the pictures I have seen of these shocks disassembled none have this spring on the seal head like mine does. Bottom out cushion?


----------



## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Yeah that brown piece is just a thin bottom out cushion. Maybe use flat rubber washer?? (as long as suspension oil doesn't make it break down).

I've pulled apart a few CC shocks, coil and air... I have never seen one with a spring like that. What size is your shock now and did you buy it new?


----------



## JRizzle (10 mo ago)

It's a 200x57, I bought it recently from a guy who had it for his Bronson. He bought it 2nd hand also but with minimal use, so I can only assume it came off another Bronson. He got injured soon after buying it and stopped riding so never fitted it, had it in his shed for years. It has the updated blue air piston.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Weird. I don't remember seeing any service manuals showing a spring like that. Either way, as long as the shock works when you put it back together that's all that matters. 

It's almost like he used a longer shaft from a different sized shock but to shorten it, he put in that spring.


----------



## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Christopher Robin said:


> Weird. I don't remember seeing any service manuals showing a spring like that. Either way, as long as the shock works when you put it back together that's all that matters.
> 
> It's almost like he used a longer shaft from a different sized shock but to shorten it, he put in that spring.


It was a custom stock just for Santa Cruz just for the V1 Bronson.


----------



## Norunec (Apr 3, 2019)

This thread is full of excellent stuff, thanks everyone. In the UK tranlating O-ring sizes to metric is a massive PITA so - I have done a spreadshet. I think this covers all the variants from this thread, and has links to UK suppliers for all the parts bar the backup rings and the IFP pellet. 

Please have a look, as to buy the seal sets on ebay is about £70 plus postage. This lot - well, three sets is about £60.


Cane Creek DB Air Seals54.6​DescriptionSizeImperialMetricNo. usedSupplier CostMin orderTotalLinkOrdered?NoteOuter Air Cano-ring135​0.103 x 1.92 x 2.1312.62 x 48.90 x 54.143​123bearing0.61​6​3.66​








O-ring seal OR-48.9X2.62-NBR90 - 48.9x54.14x2.62 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


O-Ring Seal OR-48.9X2.62-NBR90 Generic, Inner diam. 48.9 mm, Outer diam. 54.14 mm, Width 2.62 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yesmk2 o-ring2*422.0 x 423​123bearing0.61​6​3.66​








O-ring seal OR-42X2-NBR70 - 42x46x2 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


O-Ring Seal OR-42X2-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 42 mm, Outer diam. 46 mm, Width 2 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




YesGold pistonquad ring129​0.103 x 1.674 x 1.8802.62 x 44.12 x 49.361​123bearing2.15​1​2.15​








X-ring seal XR-44.12X2.62-NBR70 - 44.12x49.36x2.62 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


X-Ring Seal XR-44.12X2.62-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 44.12 mm, Outer diam. 49.36 mm, Width 2.62 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yes0 ring26​0.07 x 1.239 x 1.3791.78 x 31.47 x 35.031​123bearing0.61​6​3.66​








O-ring seal OR-31.47X1.78-NBR90 - 31.47x35.03x1.78 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


O-Ring Seal OR-31.47X1.78-NBR90 Generic, Inner diam. 31.47 mm, Outer diam. 35.03 mm, Width 1.78 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yeesPurple pistonQuad ring219​0.139 x 1.2966 x 1.5743.53 x 32.92 x 39.981​123bearing0.61​3​0.64​








X-ring seal XR-32.92X3.53-NBR70 - 32.92x39.98x3.53 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


X-Ring Seal XR-32.92X3.53-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 32.92 mm, Outer diam. 39.98 mm, Width 3.53 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




YesO ring24​0.07 x 1.114 x 1.2541.78 x 28.3 x 31.861​123bearing0.61​6​3.66​








O-ring seal OR-28.30X1.78-NBR70 - 28.3x31.86x1.78 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


O-Ring Seal OR-28.30X1.78-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 28.3 mm, Outer diam. 31.86 mm, Width 1.78 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yesBlue pistonQuad ring222​0.139 x 1.484 x 1.7623.53 x 37.69 x 44.751​123bearing0.61​3​1.83​








X-ring seal XR-37.69X3.53-NBR70 - 37.69x44.75x3.53 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


X-Ring Seal XR-37.69X3.53-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 37.69 mm, Outer diam. 44.75 mm, Width 3.53 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yesBottom Capwiper sealAN-131.25 x 1.52 x 0.101​FPE Seals0.61​1​0.61​


Find a Seal | FPE Seals Ltd


Yeso-ring31​0.07 x 1.739 x 1.8791.78 x 44.17 x 47.731​123bearing0.61​6​3.66​








O-ring seal OR-44.17X1.78-NBR70 - 44.17x47.73x1.78 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


O-Ring Seal OR-44.17X1.78-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 44.17 mm, Outer diam. 47.73 mm, Width 1.78 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




Yesquad ring124​0.103 x 1.237 x 1.4432.62 x 31.42 x 36.661​123bearing0.61​3​1.83​








X-ring seal XR-31.42X2.62-NBR70 - 31.42x36.66x2.62 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


X-Ring Seal XR-31.42X2.62-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 31.42 mm, Outer diam. 36.66 mm, Width 2.62 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yesquad ring 123​0.103 x 1.174 x 1.3802.62 x 29.82 x 35.06 1​123bearing0.61​3​1.83​








X-ring seal XR-29.82X2.62-NBR70 - 29.82x35.06x2.62 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


X-Ring Seal XR-29.82X2.62-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 29.82 mm, Outer diam. 35.06 mm, Width 2.62 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yesInternal seal headquad ring109​0.103 x 0.299 x 0.5052.62 x 7.59 x 12.831​123bearing0.61​3​1.83​








X-ring seal XR-7.59X2.62-NBR70 - 7.59x2.62 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


X-Ring Seal XR-7.59X2.62-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 7.59 mm, Width 2.62 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yeso ring2.00 x 22.51​123bearing0.61​6​3.66​








O-ring seal OR-22.5X2-NBR70 - 22.5x26.5x2 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


O-Ring Seal OR-22.5X2-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 22.5 mm, Outer diam. 26.5 mm, Width 2 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yesquad ring203​0.139 x 0.296 x 0.5743.53 x 7.52 x 14.581​123bearing0.61​6​3.66​








O-ring seal OR-28.30X1.78-NBR70 - 28.3x31.86x1.78 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


O-Ring Seal OR-28.30X1.78-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 28.3 mm, Outer diam. 31.86 mm, Width 1.78 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yesO ring203​0.139 x 0.296 x 0.5743.53 x 7.52 x 14.581​123bearing0.61​6​3.66​








O-ring seal OR-7.52X3.53-NBR70 - 7.52x14.58x3.53 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


O-Ring Seal OR-7.52X3.53-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 7.52 mm, Outer diam. 14.58 mm, Width 3.53 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yesIFPquad ring117​0.103 x 0.799 x 1.0052.62 x 20.29 x 25.541​123bearing0.61​3​1.83​








X-ring seal XR-20.29X2.62-NBR70-N4117 - 20.29x25.53x2.62 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


X-Ring Seal XR-20.29X2.62-NBR70-N4117 Generic, Inner diam. 20.29 mm, Outer diam. 25.53 mm, Width 2.62 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yesIFP capO ring117​0.103 x 0.799 x 1.0052.62 x 20.29 x 25.541​123bearing0.61​3​1.83​O-ring seal OR-20.29X2.62-MVQ70 - 20.29x25.53x2.62 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and sealsyessiliconLSC/LSRO ringn/a1.5 x 4.0123bearing0.61​6​3.66​








O-ring seal OR-4X1.50-NBR70 - 4x7x1.5 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


O-Ring Seal OR-4X1.50-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 4 mm, Outer diam. 7 mm, Width 1.5 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yesHSC/HSRO ring15​0.070 x 0.551 x 0.6911.78 x 14.00 x 17.56123bearing0.61​6​3.66​








O-ring seal OR-14X1.78-NBR70 - 14x17.56x1.78 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


O-Ring Seal OR-14X1.78-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 14 mm, Outer diam. 17.56 mm, Width 1.78 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yesO ringn/a1.0 x 4.0123bearing0.61​6​3.66​








O-ring seal OR-4X1-NBR70 - 4x6x1 mm | 123Bearing - 123Bearing - 123Bearing.co.uk, the reference for your bearings, belts and seals


O-Ring Seal OR-4X1-NBR70 Generic, Inner diam. 4 mm, Outer diam. 6 mm, Width 1 mm, material NBR




www.123bearing.co.uk




yes


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## JRizzle (10 mo ago)

This is interesting Cane Creek Suspension Support - Cane Creek Cycling Components
I'm sure this wasn't there before. Wonder if it means service parts will be available to the public soon.


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