# Resisting the urge to upgrade



## Birdman (Dec 31, 2003)

I was looking for a 16" bike for my daughter who just turned 4 and has outgrown her 12" Schwinn Tigress. I was prepared to pony-up for a 2011/12 Specialized Hotrock (about $210-220) or buy a GT Lola 16" frame (Nashbar, $20 + $20 S/H) and swap parts off cheap steel frame bike.

CL to the rescue. Found a gently used 2008 Specialized Hotrock (sea green) for less than 40% of the cost of a new one. Weight with training wheels is a respectable 17lb, which is over 2lb lighter than her 12" Schwinn. Finally a kids bike that is actually _lighter_ than one of my MTBs!

Just wanted to share my joy and get some feedback on possible upgrades - adding a rear sidepull brake, maybe? 16" kevlar-bead tires?

This bike will eventually be passed down to my 2nd daughter too.

JMJ


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## Rondo (Oct 14, 2011)

Resistance is futile! LOL

The best upgrade you can do is ride ride ride. With her! 

They like that best!

In all seriousness, any way you can lighten the bike up will make it easier for her to ride thus more fun and longer rides. The easiest ones that come to mind are the steel seatpost and handlebars. The hand brakes are big confidence boosters! Both my kids can’t stand coaster brakes. Another thing, ask her what feels uncomfortable and listen. I ask my daughter and was surprised to find out she didn’t like her hand grips and said they were too hard and hurt her hands. She also said the hand brake was hard to pull so replacing cabling with better stuff was in order.

At this point I would be practicing with her enough to move away from the training wheels in the near future. My girl had this exact same bike except it was the grey and white one. Great starter in the 16” arena! She just went from that to the 20” Diamondback Octane 6-speed. Now she’s learning hills.

What kind of riding do you do? One of the biggest and most important things my thoughts are to go to a park with some sidewalk, maybe a little hard dirt, with a lot of twists and turns left and right. Don’t let her get in the habit of just making right hand circles in the driveway cuz then they are a bit unsure when faced with something a little different. KWIM?

Hope this helps…

Oh and congrats!!!!


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

I added a hand brake just so my kids learned to use it and when they moved up to a 20 inch geared bike there was one less thing to learn/get used to. It's worked well for both.


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## djork (Nov 8, 2004)

I also picked up a 16" Specialized Hotrock for my 4-year-old nephew this past weekend. It's a 2007 and in fairly great condition, albeit a few scuff marks and scratches on fork. Got it for $70.

I also am tempted to mod it! Looking at replacing the seatpost with an aluminum 22.2 post. Where can I find them? I believe the 2008 handlebar is aluminum, as the 2007 is. Looking at putting 90mm ODI lock-on grips with custom etching. Anyone know if it will fit on kid bars?

How do you add a hand brake to a 16 Hotrock that comes with no rim brake mounts?


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## Demo9 (Nov 20, 2006)

djork said:


> I also picked up a 16" Specialized Hotrock for my 4-year-old nephew this past weekend. It's a 2007 and in fairly great condition, albeit a few scuff marks and scratches on fork. Got it for $70.
> 
> I also am tempted to mod it! Looking at replacing the seatpost with an aluminum 22.2 post. Where can I find them? I believe the 2008 handlebar is aluminum, as the 2007 is. Looking at putting 90mm ODI lock-on grips with custom etching. Anyone know if it will fit on kid bars?
> 
> How do you add a hand brake to a 16 Hotrock that comes with no rim brake mounts?


Odi Grips will fit. You could get this Crupi seat and post combo 
Then this type of brakes and levers
Crupi BMX Racing Prducts 
TEKTRO 313A BMX BIKE BRAKE LEVER SET | eBay
TEKTRO SIDE PULL BMX BIKE F&R BRAKE CALIPER SET WHITE | eBay


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## Demo9 (Nov 20, 2006)

Then you could get these.

FMF PowerMoto BMX Flip Flop 28h Hubset Mini Expert Jr. | eBay

Lace them up and add a freewheel.

The rear hub is really heavy, so its a win win.


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## Birdman (Dec 31, 2003)

Thanks for the input. The Crupi post/saddle combo looks perfect. I was thinking of fabricating a new post, as I can get 7075 tubing at work and have a Syncros saddle rail clamp to press into the seatpost top. Depends on whether or not these tiny saddles are spaced like adult saddles.

My daughter has done some gravel road & doubletrack riding with me on my LOCT saddle and loves it. I think I'll start her in a local park with me riding my rigid SS too.

JMJ


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## Demo9 (Nov 20, 2006)

Here are a couple of pics of a tricked out Hotrock that I built. It is the exact frame as the bike you just picked up. The seat on it is the same as the Crupi, but with different cover. The upgrading possibilities are endless

Cheers


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## djork (Nov 8, 2004)

Demo9: That is super coool! That has got to be the pimpest Hotrock on the block! 

Today I looked at the seat and seatpost, and it looks like the seat is just clamped to a post. I'm new to BMX parts, but I figure the post I've seen on Ebay are BMX seatposts that you just clamp a seat to. Today I scored a Kore 50mm(?) B1B stem and a Kore bar that had been cut to the perfect size for a 16 or 20 bike. Apparently the bar was used on a fixie. The bar has sort of a low rise though, but the upward slope of the HR's top tube may make up for it. Demo9's pic gives me a good visual on how a a mtn bike riser bar will look. I love that the 16" bike has a 1 1/8 headset.

Btw, my nephew came over and saw me cleaning the bike :| Had a ton of reasons to explain away the bike, but methinks the surprise may have been spoiled.


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## Birdman (Dec 31, 2003)

What's the deal Demo9 - too cheap to spring for hydraulic brakes? Sheesh...

Super nice bike!

JMJ


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## Demo9 (Nov 20, 2006)

Birdman said:


> What's the deal Demo9 - too cheap to spring for hydraulic brakes? Sheesh...
> 
> Super nice bike!
> 
> JMJ


No my son is only 4 years old. He has not learned to use a front brake very well, yet. So the BB7 brakes, being cable you can adjust it to just drag and not lock up. Once he learns front brake modulation then he will get hydraulic brakes.


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## Birdman (Dec 31, 2003)

Demo9 said:


> No my son is only 4 years old. He has not learned to use a front brake very well, yet. So the BB7 brakes, being cable you can adjust it to just drag and not lock up. Once he learns front brake modulation then he will get hydraulic brakes.


I knew you had it all planned out.

JMJ


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## Demo9 (Nov 20, 2006)

@ Birdman,

You can also get a 18" Bmx fork which will raise the bottom bracket and get the bars up a little higher. Here are 2 pics of Hotrock with a 18" fork and one pic with the stock fork and low rise bars.


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## Birdman (Dec 31, 2003)

Cool. So I could go 16" rear, 18" front and she'll be riding an 86er?

I think my first upgrade goal is shedding the training wheels.

Thanks all - JMJ


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

Demo9 said:


> @ Birdman,
> 
> You can also get a 18" Bmx fork which will raise the bottom bracket and get the bars up a little higher. Here are 2 pics of Hotrock with a 18" fork and one pic with the stock fork and low rise bars.


Are you worried about developing bad braking habits by giving them a rear only?


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## djork (Nov 8, 2004)

Man, looking at Demo9's 16 HR bikes is just like oggling at modded big people bikes, maybe better!

I was wondering how tall are the riders of these 16" bikes? I'm worrying that my nephew might outgrow the 16 before Christmas. He's about 40" tall, I think. He's really outgrowing the 12" bike. Btw, I think the 12" Hotrock has an aluminum seatpost, but the 16 has steel. What's up with that? I was hoping I could swap it out, but the 12 seat looks to be riveted to the post.


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## burnedthetoast (Oct 30, 2009)

Demo9 - What type of fork is that?


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## Demo9 (Nov 20, 2006)

djork said:


> Man, looking at Demo9's 16 HR bikes is just like oggling at modded big people bikes, maybe better!
> 
> I was wondering how tall are the riders of these 16" bikes? I'm worrying that my nephew might outgrow the 16 before Christmas. He's about 40" tall, I think. He's really outgrowing the 12" bike. Btw, I think the 12" Hotrock has an aluminum seatpost, but the 16 has steel. What's up with that? I was hoping I could swap it out, but the 12 seat looks to be riveted to the post.


Here are a few pics of an 8 year old on one of my 16" bikes. I think people push to get there kids on too big of a bike too soon all in the name of saving money. The smaller 16" bikes allow them to maneuver and jump way better. My son is 42" tall at 4 1/2 years old. He will not see 20" wheels for at least a couple more years. I think of it as putting myself (5'8") on an XL frame bike. It just doesn't work. I have also added a pic of my son on his 16" bike for size reference.


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## HighFlyingMama (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks, guys! This thread is SO helpful.

My 7 yr old's first bike was a 2009 16" Hotrock. He still uses it, stock, as a freestyle BMXer. Hubby wants to mod it out to a good freestyler. 

I also just bought a used (another 2009) 16" for my daughter who turns 3 next week. She rides the one we already have and likes it better than her 12" Hotrock. I want her to be able to do some of the super-easy, flat singletrack we have around here with us and a well-modded Hotrock is the ticket. She tries to hack it on her BMX racer, but narrow tires and geometry make it way too squirrely. I can't wait to build it up for her.


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

Demo9 said:


> Here are a few pics of an 8 year old on one of my 16" bikes. I think people push to get there kids on too big of a bike too soon all in the name of saving money. The smaller 16" bikes allow them to maneuver and jump way better. My son is 42" tall at 4 1/2 years old. He will not see 20" wheels for at least a couple more years. I think of it as putting myself (5'8") on an XL frame bike. It just doesn't work. I have also added a pic of my son on his 16" bike for size reference.


Very true - couldn't agree more with this.:thumbsup:


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## HighFlyingMama (Apr 4, 2011)

Demo9, I must say again, I LOVE your mod. 

What derailleur/gears/hub and brakes did you find worked for you? I don't mind spending money on this project, but not being familiar with MTB parts too well yet, I don't want to throw money at parts that won't fit and then have to buy again and again. 

Today, I've ripped apart and prepped the 16. I'll be painting this afternoon. I'll be putting it back together with a set of Redline Pitboss wheels, freewheel hub and a rim brake. She's turning 3 this week, so I don't need gears yet. But, she's seriously bike-precocious, and I expect she'll be genuinely ready for a few gears by fall. I'd love to do the disc right off the bat, but don't know ANYTHING about disc brakes and am afraid I'd get in over my head.

I already have low rise bars, an 18" fork, and plan to get the american-euro adapter so I can run 3 piece cranks like her BMX racer has. I'll take her 115mm Sinz off the BMXer and use them here, put nicer 120mm Answer/Speedline cranks on her race bike.

I would appreciate ANY advice you have for me! Thank you!


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## Demo9 (Nov 20, 2006)

@Highflyingmama, Adding a disc is a little difficult. I would have to have you ship me the rear wheel so I can machine he hub for all the parts to fit. I have the 2 adapters that you will need to get the rotor and caliper in place. I have found that the Avid BB5 or BB7 to be the best caliper for the kids bikes. Then use a Sinz mini lever or something similar. To add gears your looking at lacing a custom rear hub to your existing rim. You can only run 3 gears due to the space of the modified freehub. The derailleur also has to be modified. I have found that it works ok, every now and then I have to adjust the limit screw that I modified. It was a ton of work and I only did it to see if I could. I am having some frames made now that would use a 135mm spaced mountain bike hub that will allow a 9sp drivetrain and disc brakes. Might be something you would be interested in down the road. Here are a couple of pics of he suspension frame and the hardtail frame.


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## Duntov1967 (Jan 14, 2012)

Demo9;8979941To add gears your looking at lacing a custom rear hub to your existing rim. You can only run 3 gears due to the space of the modified freehub. [QUOTE said:


> Profile Racing has an off-the-shelf hub ready to lace along with an add-on hanger. The freehub is Shimano compatible. The catch is that it is pricey. The trick is to find a used Profile Mini Hub and just buy the new freehub.


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## Demo9 (Nov 20, 2006)

Sweet hub! Great option for 110 spaced rear ends. I am going to see if they offer a disc hub with cassette for 110 spaced rear ends.


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## HighFlyingMama (Apr 4, 2011)

I've seen a couple of BMXers with disc brakes, but don't know what set-up they're running.

Will write more later....wrangling sick kid and crazy kid right now. Thanks so much, Demo and Duntov. You've got my brain spinning!


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## Duntov1967 (Jan 14, 2012)

Demo9 said:


> Sweet hub! Great option for 110 spaced rear ends. I am going to see if they offer a disc hub with cassette for 110 spaced rear ends.


Talk to Shane at Profile. He is really helpful. :thumbsup:


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## BlairW (Mar 26, 2012)

This is a great thread. We are looking at doing something similar to at hotrock 16 for our 5 year old (she is small for a 5 year old). Demo9/HighFlyingM would be interested in what low rise bars/stem you used. Disc's and gears are likely to be stage two - lots to think about. Demo9 those frames are awesome.


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## indianadave (Apr 27, 2010)

First thing I'd do for any "future mountainbiker" is add hand brakes. Even on my daughters little princess bike, I took a handbrake off another cheapy Walmart bike and swapped it over. Get them used to handbrakes right away, and then all they need to learn is gears when going to a real mountainbike.
Once my 6 year old got on her 20" Hotrock she never looked back!


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

indianadave said:


> First thing I'd do for any "future mountainbiker" is add hand brakes. Even on my daughters little princess bike, I took a handbrake off another cheapy Walmart bike and swapped it over. Get them used to handbrakes right away, and then all they need to learn is gears when going to a real mountainbike.
> Once my 6 year old got on her 20" Hotrock she never looked back!


+1. I put hand brakes on both my kids 16 inch bikes. When they moved to a 20 inch geared, they already had braking down, makes the switch so much easier.


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## gnac (Aug 2, 2012)

Man, am I glad I found this (slightly old) thread.

I was looking at getting my son a new bike as he outgrows his 12" Giant. 

The options out there are pretty slim or out of my price range. However I happen to have a bike exactly like the green hotrock posted by the OP that used to be my daughters. 

Now to start finding parts nad perusing the LBS to see who can help me do the upgrades. I can work on my own bike, but 'm not much of a machinist/fabricator so I'd need help on anything that would require those types of mods.


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## chrisjmcqueen (Oct 19, 2010)

djork said:


> Looking at replacing the seatpost with an aluminum 22.2 post. Where can I find them?


I found the Insight Mini Seat after I had bought the cupri


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## rkrans (Oct 12, 2004)

*Modding specialized hotrock 16 with suspension fork*

Reviving an old thread I just have to say what an inspirational job Demo9! I'm currently restoring a used 08 Hotrock 16 I picked up for 25 and you've given me many ideas.

The powder coaters I'm using wouldn't touch the fork due to the use of aluminum and steel steer tube- looking at your sons bike I'm wondering if I can get away with my old RockShox Sid XC air? Is that a full size (26" wheel) suspension fork you installed? If so, how do you think it affects the bikes geometry? Appreciate your input; and if anyone else has knowledge of this I'm eager to hear your thoughts.

Thanks!


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

looks like demo9 used a WHITE fork originally meant for 20" wheels. 

Geometry is changed by slackening the headtube and seattube angles about 1 degree for each additional 20mm of fork length added. Putting a 26" suspension fork on a 16" bike would probably result in almost 10 degreed of head tube angle change, a very large change to the bikes geometry, definitly not reccomended.


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## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

GNAC,
Theres a couple of threads on here that will help you out.
Im just about to finish my build once the frame comes back from the paint shop.

Disc Brake conversion:
Wheels - 16" rims with flanged hubs for disc. Try OSET for the wheels (£35ea), Discs (£10ea) there are other options but watch out for the 110mm rear spacing.
Brakes - ebay either Avid BB5 or 7 or go with hydro's
Forks - various options available with disc mounts ranging for £40 - £500
Rear disc mount - you can go with the Chopper US rear mount (Cycles U.S. Homepage - Cycles U.S. LLC/Choppers U.S.) or make your own as done by MIOM (http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/hotrock-16-trials-build-830257.html) using 6mm alloy.

Cranks: Sinz BMX cranks go from 115mm upwards but you'll also need a square taper BB and an American/Euro adaptor (DMR Wondercup), and a chainring to suit.

Freewheel: Any BMX type will do to fit the wheels.

Gears: Im still working on that but there are clearly someways to fir a 3 speed on the frame. See HighFlyingMama's posts

Good luck


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## rkrans (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks GrayJay. I thought it would be too good to be true- getting to repurpose my old fork in my sons bike! Definitely don't want to mess up that Specialized geometry!


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## MIOM (Sep 24, 2012)

I thought about 3-speed with the trials build but never actually got to it. You can certainly get a screw on 3 speed freewheel, but am not sure about the rear derailleur.


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## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

attaching the rear derailleur is actually the easy bit 
DMR Chain Tugs & Mech Hanger | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com

Ive ordered a 3 speed (21/18/16) from amazon but don't know exactly what the spacing is or what shifters will needed to suit. This part isnt urgent yet as Ive got a spare single freewheel to work with.

I know that Demo9 went a different route and used a more traditional MTB type hub with cassette


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## MIOM (Sep 24, 2012)

Hi Griffter18

It wasn't hanging the derailleur which was the issue so much, it was which derrailleur would work, ie which has the adjustment to work with just 3 gears? Be a nice addition to a 16" bike, and make it a little more 'multi-function'!


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

On another of my bikes, I cobbled together a 3-speed freewheel by just using an old 5-speed suntour "PERFECT" freewheel. A 5-speed FW is only 25mm wide and you can remove a couple of cogs to make it 3-speed, swap cogs to get the ratios needed. Shouldt be too hard to make it fit in a 110mm frame by moving axel spacers, dishing the wheel. You can likely use any regular rear derailler, replace the upper limit stop screw with a longer screw to keep it from shifting past the biggest cog.


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## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

Not that easy to move the hub across when space is tight due to the disc.
I'm hoping that the 3 speed freewheel I have ordered can be made to work with a modified trigger shift.
The 3 speed is only 15mm so shouldn't be too far of if the derailleur is restricted with the limit screws.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Demo9 -- have you posted before what parts you need to get different cranks into the Hotrock 16?


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## Demo9 (Nov 20, 2006)

Maybe, but here you go:
Universal Cycles -- Truvativ American to Euro BB-Shell Conversion

Bottom bracket width would be determined by the cranks you use. Most use 68x110mm or 68x113mm

You will need 100-115mm max length crank arms. I found the 115mm arms only worked if you installed a longer fork. I used 18" bmx fork to raise the bottom bracket up a little.

Currently the only place to find short cranks:
https://www.facebook.com/turn3racing

Good luck


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Thank you! I will look into that adapter and look up BBs.

I've seen Turn3 before, been eyeing their cranks but not at 3x the cost of Sinz, at least for now. At least they do go smaller than 115.

I keep seeing talk about their nano/micro/mini completes, but no details.


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

When people are adding rigid forks a couple questions:

1. For 18 inch forks I cannot find many good, light options. Suggestions? Aluminum or CM?

Options:

Kink BMX ? Bantam 18?

DK Alpha 18 3/8in Black : 18in Forks

Both about 2 lbs each. Aluminum maybe better? 18 inch Micro, but worried about durability?

2. For 20 inch forks there are many options (Sinz Stealth on sale for $70 now, 240 lb weight limit so strong), but afraid this will raise the front too much.

I have a 13 inch toptube hotrock 16 frame and a 15 inch toptube hotrock frame. The forks from different years are some aluminum, some steel. The 15 has aluminum, the 13 toptube is steel. I am thinking of "stealing" the aluminum fork from the 15 inch toptube model and putting it in the 13 inch toptube bike for my youngest(2.5), then putting a sinz 20 inch in the longer 15 toptube for my 4 year old.

https://www.jrbicycles.com/storefront/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=6593

Probably can get away with more rise on the 20 inch fork with the 15 inch toptube without it going "vertical". It looks like that is what "mama" did.

See what I mean here from Demo9's two examples on pinkbike:

16 inch with 15 inch toptube

Gavins Old DJ Bike at My Garage in Troutdale, Oregon, United States - photo by vpfreebird - Pinkbike

16 inch with 13 inch toptube

Gavins Cousin Norahs Bike at My Garage in Troutdale, Oregon, United States - photo by vpfreebird - Pinkbike

Experience appreciated.

Mama,

I saw you added a 20 inch fork to what appears to be a 15 inch toptube setup. Any problems with that?

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150652152231383.450980.680686382&type=1&l=7fa631f3da

As far as cranks, Spawn makes some nice ones now for short legs, but different bolt pattern than sinz etc...

Parts | Product Categories | Spawn Cycles - Born to Ride

Also, for going non-disk Alex 1000 wheels reportedly work well. Carried by Danscomp for $25 a piece with freewheel ready rear.

https://www.danscomp.com/products-PARTS/402023/Alloy_16_Front_Wheel.html

Rears currently out of stock, but assured back soon.

Only issue is NO BRAKES. I have been looking at these threads for V brake adapters as I don't have the skills to machine disk wheels and V brakes are enough for now for me, but if anyone is selling a rear disk setup please do PM me.

http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/brake-lever-rear-hub-upgrades-hotrock-16-a-878765.html


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## Rondo (Oct 14, 2011)

Look up Exotic carbon forks on feebay.

To the right of the happy packs!


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

Rondo said:


> Look up Exotic carbon forks on feebay.


Have done but could not find an 18. My concern is durability and people talking about failure. Rare, but want your kid to have faith in bike. Talked with Demo9 and he used CM 18 forks in his builds.


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## Rondo (Oct 14, 2011)

Use the 20.

How hard does the kids punish the bike exactly?

These are strong forks until you put a 230lb man on a 29'er freeriding them.


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

Rondo said:


> Use the 20.
> 
> How hard does the kids punish the bike exactly?
> 
> These are strong forks until you put a 230lb man on a 29'er freeriding them.


You are probably correct regarding durability. Counterpoint is carbon strong until you bang it on concrete a bunch and it starts to delaminate, but still likely to last the couple years my kids are on it. My concern is the 20 lifts the front quite a bit, but maybe worth the weight savings.


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## Rondo (Oct 14, 2011)

I was considering the same thing when building my kids bikes and figured it would prepare them for suspension. Put carbon forks on both. Keep in mind these are both mountain bikes. So for my son's 20 I put a 24 fork and my daughters 26 I installed a 29 (suspension adjusted) fork.

Gotta run.

Good luck!


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

I was looking for disc compatible bmx hubs and came across these Bonz expert hubs which led to a bunch of compatible hubs. Demo 9 seems to think they would work.

Rear 20" disc hub, 116mm or 100mm

116mm Fixed Hubs

Ship from UK, but some options.

For rims some 36 hole and 32 hole rims here...

Rims, Wheels & Parts - Rims - 16" - Niagara Cycle

Demo 9 has 32 hole rims as well...Not sure the ones on here compatible (1 1/8 width?)


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## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

Width looks ok
Weight looks ok
Holes 32 - limited rim options 
Biggest down side is that it's not a free hub so your limited to either a fixed Shimano style sprocket or a freewheel so it's then down to what will fit is 6/7/8/9 speed and this would need all the dimensions to work out.


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

griffter18 said:


> Width looks ok
> Weight looks ok
> Holes 32 - limited rim options
> Biggest down side is that it's not a free hub so your limited to either a fixed Shimano style sprocket or a freewheel so it's then down to what will fit is 6/7/8/9 speed and this would need all the dimensions to work out.


Thank You. My assumption is I would be using it for single speed and put mini compatible freewheels or single speed freewheels on it. If looking for gears would consider Lil Shredder/Spawn for compatibility.

Dimensions/lineup on a disk seem challenging and perhaps prohibitive without strong machinging/build skills. I welcome input on how hard it is to line up from people who have done it.

I build regular bikes(compatible parts), but custom refit of disks to kids frame another ball game. V brake mounts seem possible, but far less elegant and still $60 just for mounts unless you can find some used. Calipers not adequate/deal breaker.

I like to build things as much as the next guy, but want it to work in the end. The value of Lil Shredder becoming quite clear (MTB compatible hubs, 16 to 20 compatible on same frame with new dropouts, clear engineering forethought and design), just looking for non-suspension now to keep it simple. Spawn looks good too, but no model currently what I am looking for.

I have to be honest, at the end of the day there is quite a bit of enjoyment in tinkering and building something yourself rather than something stock, but downsides as above. You can sell a used lil shredder or spawn for more than a custom as well, so in the end maybe the better deal, aside from reward of building one yourself.


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

The weight on the exotic 20 bmx is just under 2 lbs. The weight on a CM DK 18 inch fork is just over 2 lbs. You get the benefit of carbon shock absorption and looks cool, but very little in the way of weight savings and much higher rise. Perhaps it is listed incorrectly on the site, but just something to consider.

CarbonCycles.CC :: Components :: Products :: Forks - BMX :: eXotic CREATURE Carbon BMX Fork :: CC-F0420

DK Alpha 18" Fork 3/8in White : 18in Forks


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## Rondo (Oct 14, 2011)

I was thinking the XOOK line. A bit lighter but not sure it would fit your app.

They've got quite a few options.

CarbonCycles.CC :: Components :: Products :: Forks - BMX :: eXotic XOOK Creature Carbon BMX Fork :: CC-F0H24


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## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

If your going single speed and want option of discs then have a look at OSET as mentioned in earlier post. You can pick up a full 16" or 20" rear wheel for around £35
This then just needs a standard single freewheel screwing on for the drive side of things.
The disc side is also straight forwards with an A2Z adaptor or you can make your own brake mount.
Brakes can then be hydro or cable disc.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Demo9 said:


> Maybe, but here you go:
> Universal Cycles -- Truvativ American to Euro BB-Shell Conversion
> 
> Bottom bracket width would be determined by the cranks you use. Most use 68x110mm or 68x113mm
> ...


OK I'm revisiting this now. She's spinning out really quickly on this Hotrock 16.

America-Euro BB conversion shell, $17, got that part figured out.
Euro BB -- 68x110 or 68x113. The crank manufacturers don't say what is needed, so how can I find out? Options are Spawn 102mm 4-bolt for $70 shipped, Turn3 (using Answer spider) for $126 shipped, or Sinz for about $50 shipped.

What is this for?
American 3-pc Sealed BB at Dan's Comp


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

Dave88LX said:


> OK I'm revisiting this now. She's spinning out really quickly on this Hotrock 16.
> 
> America-Euro BB conversion shell, $17, got that part figured out.
> Euro BB -- 68x110 or 68x113. The crank manufacturers don't say what is needed, so how can I find out? Options are Spawn 102mm 4-bolt for $70 shipped, Turn3 (using Answer spider) for $126 shipped, or Sinz for about $50 shipped.
> ...


Once you have adapter (Truvative American to Euro) it depends somewhat on the crank you will use. Sinz, AC, Redline microline and most cranks 68 x 113 is quoted. 110 I have not used, but would give you a lower Q factor. For some of the older cranks like Black Widow you need a longer spindle BB. Not sure on Spawn, would email them.

See JR for verification on Sinz, see helpful hint...

BMX PARTS - Bottom Brackets - EURO SQUARE TAPERED - SINZ Pro CrMo Square Tapered Euro Bottom Bracket - J&R BMX Superstore - BMX Bikes, Parts and Gear- Custom Bikes and Wheels

I have seen one hotrock conversion thread where they used a 107. It probably comes down to what Q factor you want but it seems all will work.

http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/another-16-hotrock-build-767813.html

Pictured is a 68 x 113mm I got on ebay for $18 shipped from Red Comet, sealed, 240g quoted within the Truvative adapter($17 Ebay).

With the number of new bikes (Commencal, Spawn) etc out there, it is not always economical to do a freewheel/crank conversion on a hotrock as you have to figure out some way to get brakes on the back. Options are V brakes adapters (below) or building a disc hub.

Breakdown
V brake option
-New back wheel 16 inch (Alex Z1000 from Niagra or Danscomp) $30
-ACS crossfire freewheel ($20)
-Sinz crank $50
-MCS chainring $20
-V brake adapter (Evolution cycle) $60
-Brakes/Levers ($30);
-Bottom bracket ($20)
-Truvative adapter ($20)
-New bars $20
-Potentially new stem $20

$290 plus cost of hotrock

Disk option
-Trials 110mm freewheel hub ($70) or use lathe to cut down MTB 135 hub (Demo9 did this for his custom rides)
-Custom wheelbuild with rare 32 hole rim from LilShredders/Demo9 ($100+), or do it yourself (rim from Demo9 $30, plus cost of spokes, cut spokes custom)
-Disc adapter ($30)
-Disc brake ($30-$70)
-ACS crossfire freewheel ($20)
-Sinz crank $50
-Bottom bracket ($20)
-Truvative adapter ($20)
-New bars $20
-Potentially new stem $20

Well over $350

If you can get the used parts it is a good deal, but starting from a frame that has a euro BB, freewheel, and V brake bosses gives you a easier substrate to upgrade from unless you have parts or expertise.

Example:

Commencal Ramones 16 2015

Euro BB with 114mm cranks, V brake bosses, and parts compatible with most MTB (25.4 bars, 1 1/8 headset)

Heavy to start at 18 lbs, but could get it down. Spawn Banshee other option. The hotrock builds are super cool, but not necessarily economical. Finn Finestones hotrock (Chez Demo9) is still the coolest I have seen.

Gavins Old DJ Bike at My Garage in Troutdale, Oregon, United States - photo by vpfreebird - Pinkbike

Or a Pitboss (14.5 lbs stock) on sale new ~ $320 shipped if you look around.

Not deterring you, I just went through the exercise and deciding what I want to do. If just want higher gearing the BB/adapter/crank/chainring is ~ $100, but still stuck with drag/weight of rear non-freewheel hub.


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## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

Dave88LX You can reduce the cost of the disc option a bit:
-Rear wheel OSET 16" narrow ($57)- keep original front unless you want disc on that as well in which also look at OSET but you'll also need to look at the fork as well then.
-A2Z Disc adapter to mount caliber to rear. ($30)
-Mechanical/Hydraulic Disc brake rear only ($30) 
-Any cheap freewheel in the right tooth size ($20)
-crank keep original ($0)
-Bottom bracket keep original ($0)
-bars & stem keep original ($0)

Obviously if spinning out is the major issue then you will need to change the front ring or the freewheel. If you change the front then you'll need to change cranks and bb. Look on BMX forums & Ebay for a deal on sinz

The link you posted for the American 3-pc sealed bb does away with the Euro bb convertor and Euro BB. The bearings are press fitted straight into the frame and the shaft is then pushed through and the pedals mounted using washers to get the right spacing. Look at this link


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

griffter18 said:


> Dave88LX You can reduce the cost of the disc option a bit:
> -Rear wheel OSET 16" narrow ($57)- keep original front unless you want disc on that as well in which also look at OSET but you'll also need to look at the fork as well then.
> -A2Z Disc adapter to mount caliber to rear. ($30)
> -Mechanical/Hydraulic Disc brake rear only ($30)
> ...


I looked into OSET. Info below. A bit heavy.

The wheel assembly is complete with tire and tube. It weighs 6 pounds. 
WHL16FB- $79.95
Shipping (Boston)- $23.55
Total $103.50


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## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

How much does that OSET wheel weigh?...
A lot less than the one that comes off as theres no brake inside the hub.
More spokes so only slightly heavier that a standard front.

Cant tell you exactly without stripping it all down, but my daughters 16" has discs front and rear, a 20" air fork and 3 gears and comes in at 20lbs in total. I recon I could get it below 20lbs with very little work but unfortunately (for me) original plan changed and a 20" full sis on its way from the North Pole 

Original 16" build is detailed here with credits to Demo9 for the inspiration: http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/hotrock-16-build-thank-you-850533.html


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

Helpful. Tire and tube must weight a lot.


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## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

Theres a bit of weight in the fork but that was always going to be the case. The spinner is definitely lighter than the RST one I had on originally.
Tyres are Continental Explorers and I use thick tubes so definitely an area that could be improved. If I was doing it again I would go ghetto tubeless.
If so minded the rear axle could also be switched from steel to something lighter as its a bolt through.
Pedals are also a little bit weighty even though they are magnesium.
Theres also a large piece of Alloy for the caliper adaptor on the back end which could be refined and drilled/machined to make it lighter
Stem & bars could also be swapped.
Finally BB could be swapped.

As with anything there is a balance between weight and cost but overall it's ok and as its got 3 gears little-one manages to get it up most of the hills.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Wow, thanks for taking the time to post all that.

From your link, looks like the 68x113 is what I'm looking for.

_"Save 10 grams by adding the Answer Titanium Crank Bolts below"_ for $30.
That = 1/3 oz. Do people really spend that much to save that little amount of weight? I guess everything adds up, but there's _got_ to be a point of diminishing return...

Spawn says: _"you can throw them on a standard JIS bb spindle."_ Whether that means x110 or x113, I don't know.
Spawn Cycles Alloy Cranks ? 102mm | Spawn Cycles - Born to Ride

The Commencal Ramones webpage is all screwed up trying to look at it at work, I'll have to wait until I get home to check that out. I will add that I know this is a mtb site, but we/she is not doing any mountain/trail riding. Just street, at least for now. With that said, I haven't been concerned with disc brakes, but this information is great to know about them. Who knows what direction she/they will want to go -- dirt jump, downhill, vert/ramps etc.

I really like the Pit Boss -- light (weighed mine last night, 14.8 lbs), rear v-brakes, and freewheel. I have one of those too that I bought (used, $150) for the 4-year old, but she prefers the Hotrock, and my 5- almost-6 year old rides the Pit Boss.

Glad to get your experience, since you've been exactly where I am. Even spending the money to upgrade the BB area, I would still need (want) to do the rear wheel. $$

I've already sunk the money into buying the brakes, with the Evolution V-brake adapters, and Tektro mini lever/v-brake kit. Still need to install it. I will toss that on the Hotrock 12 though if I get rid of the Hotrock 16 platform altogether.

When I was first showing my wife bikes, I really wanted the Spawn. We agreed to wait and see if the _bike thing_ took off before putting too much money into it with the nicer bikes. Well, she's definitely into it. Granted, while the HR16 is leaps-and-bounds better than a box-store bike, there are bikes way better than the HR16 out there too.

Budget is a tricky, because right now she's using this HR16 on the BMX track, but I want to get a micro and a mini set up over the winter for them for the track come spring.

I think I want to pick up a scale just to weigh things as I'm screwing around, you know, for the hell of it, because we over-analyze the hell out of everything!


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## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

Welcome to the club haha the one where the membership is lots of bright shiny things that cost an arm & leg but do very little for 'our' riding skills.

In terms of titanium parts yes people do send that in chase of the ultimate lightweight machine. Tends to be the racers though predominantly although it can also be applied to the kids things.

As to you other question "standard JIS bb spindle". JIS is a standard square taper. Length isn't part of the standard as thats dictated by BB width. Other types are ISIS and Octospine if I remember rightly and then theres the BMX ones as well.
Looks like the spawn comes in 89mm & 102mm flavours and both take a 64mm BCD chainring which means you can go as low as 22 teeth.

Now if someone cares to make a 64mmBCD in length between 102mm and 160mm then it opens up more possibilities and if they want to equip it for use with External BB's then even better


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## ProjectMayhem (Aug 23, 2013)

For my build, which wasn't a Hotrock but very similar, I used a 68x113 square taper bb


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

So there are a lot of options with these BBs. That's always a good/bad thing for me. I imagine for this situation, the cheapest option will work fine, but I'm still going to over-analyze slightly so I don't buy garbage. Street bike, not racing.

Weightwise, I don't think it would matter one bit since they're all close, and it's in the center of the rotation. (That, and again, street, not racing).

Shimano BB-UN55
$20-25
297 grams
Shimano UN55 BB Square Taper Bottom Bracket

Origin8
$38
240 grams
Origin8 Alloy Cartridge Bottom Bracket - 68 x 113

IRD QB-55
$28
255 grams
IRD QB-55 JIS Square Taper

SINZ Pro CrMo
$49
266 grams
SINZ Pro CrMo Square Tapered Euro Bottom Bracket

PROMAX ST-1
$40
278 grams
PROMAX ST-1 Square Tapered Euro Bottom Bracket

PROMAX SC-1
$55
254 grams
PROMAX SC-1 Square Tapered Euro Bottom Bracket

Most likely cheapest option:
Shimano UN26
$7.50
Shimano UN26 Square Taper Bottom Bracket
Don't think I'm loving the plastic on one side though.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Dave88LX said:


> That = 1/3 oz. Do people really spend that much to save that little amount of weight? I guess everything adds up, but there's _got_ to be a point of diminishing return...


There is - and it's way back in the rear-view long before stuff like this.



For some people, the whole weight-weenie game really is just an end unto itself. If you don't want to waste a bunch of time and money on minor but increasingly expensive 'upgrades', usually with very minimal if any real-world benefits for most riders, when you buy that scale, make sure it doesn't tick off anything more accurate than 5lb increments. Better yet, never, ever weight anything. Ever. You'll be happier, richer, and your kids will still have just as much fun.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Disregard, moving to other thread.


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

Dave88LX said:


> Disregard, moving to other thread.


Yes. Those are perfect if you are going with a V brake as opposed to disk. If disk clearly need custom hub or adapter.

Note cheapest at Danscomp ($25), but $20 shipping per wheel unless spend $100 to get free shipping.

Niagra Cycles charges more ($30) but shipping $10 (probably depends on where you are), can also spend $100 and get free shipping. Note that if getting stuff they have a great deal on Kenda/Sunlite Kontact 16 x 1.75 tires (7 bucks) which are what come on Pitbosses.

Just giving you options.

I am leaning toward trial hub, custom build with 32 hole rim from Demo9/Lil Shredder, Avid BB7, Tektro mini lever because have a 2 year old and 4 year old. V's totally seem adequate, just with the price of the adapter etc, it isn't that much more for disks.

Vans/Boston is building an epic park in Boston, just broke ground this week!

2 million, 40,000 square feet!

The Lynch Family Skatepark « Charles River Conservancy


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

Dave88LX said:


> So there are a lot of options with these BBs. That's always a good/bad thing for me. I imagine for this situation, the cheapest option will work fine, but I'm still going to over-analyze slightly so I don't buy garbage. Street bike, not racing.
> 
> Weightwise, I don't think it would matter one bit since they're all close, and it's in the center of the rotation. (That, and again, street, not racing).
> 
> ...


I used the Ebay special ($18 shipped) from RedComet2000, had to PM him to see if he had more as second one I have gotten. 240 g. Sealed cartridge, aluminum cups. Price performance plateau, don't go crazy for weight, but at a given price point can make reasonable decision.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

Moved my question over to the http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/16-freewheel-options-ways-do-911575.html thread to keep that info together.

I'm not concerned about disc brakes, just v-brakes. Glad that option will work! So it's 110mm then, which is what I believe the rear dropouts on the Hotrock 16 are?

I also linked the Niagra Cycles wheel in the other thread. Unfortunately silver is out-of-stock, at both NC and DC, so only black for now. Have to wait for silver to come back in stock. I just ordered stuff from DC, would have been nice to have it thrown in with that shipping.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

cakemonster said:


> Vans/Boston is building an epic park in Boston, just broke ground this week!
> 
> 2 million, 40,000 square feet!
> 
> The Lynch Family Skatepark « Charles River Conservancy


About time they got going on this thing. Been mothballed forever.

Didn't realize you were in the area - sing out if you're ever looking for suggestions for some good spots for the kids.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

What part of the state are you guys in? I grew up in Bridgewater.


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

Dave88LX said:


> So there are a lot of options with these BBs. That's always a good/bad thing for me. I imagine for this situation, the cheapest option will work fine, but I'm still going to over-analyze slightly so I don't buy garbage. Street bike, not racing.
> 
> Weightwise, I don't think it would matter one bit since they're all close, and it's in the center of the rotation. (That, and again, street, not racing).
> 
> ...


Another nice option for square taper BSA 111mm with carbon center is the Token @ $27.15. My buddy purchased one of these and I believe it came at 225 grams.
Token ISO Square Taper Bicycle Bottom Bracket Sports & Leisure | ProBikeKit Canada


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

Originally Posted by Dave88LX 
That = 1/3 oz. Do people really spend that much to save that little amount of weight? I guess everything adds up, but there's got to be a point of diminishing return...

I would not spend the money on Ti crank bolts. A much cheaper and lighter weight option is to run Aluminum crank bolts for $10.00 a set and a 20 gram savings over steel. Colors for kids as well. You just need to remember to torque the cranks down with the steel bolts then remove them and replace with Alum. bolts.
http://www.torontocycles.com/Selling/Chainrings_and_Cranks.html


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Dave88LX said:


> What part of the state are you guys in? I grew up in Bridgewater.


North central - a little town near Mt Wachusett with just 2 traffic lights and no fast food, if you can believe that an hour from Boston.

Oh, and tons of trail, right out the door.

:thumbsup:


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> North central - a little town near Mt Wachusett with just 2 traffic lights and no fast food, if you can believe that an hour from Boston.
> 
> Oh, and tons of trail, right out the door.
> 
> :thumbsup:


Waaaaa-wa-wa-wa-chussett! Mountain skiing minutes away! Oh yeah, been there growing up. I miss the Northeast. Slowly working my way closer back that way.


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## Dave88LX (Aug 29, 2007)

xc71 said:


> Another nice option for square taper BSA 111mm with carbon center is the Token @ $27.15. My buddy purchased one of these and I believe it came at 225 grams.
> Token ISO Square Taper Bicycle Bottom Bracket Sports & Leisure | ProBikeKit Canada





xc71 said:


> Originally Posted by Dave88LX
> That = 1/3 oz. Do people really spend that much to save that little amount of weight? I guess everything adds up, but there's got to be a point of diminishing return...
> 
> I would not spend the money on Ti crank bolts. A much cheaper and lighter weight option is to run Aluminum crank bolts for $10.00 a set and a 20 gram savings over steel. Colors for kids as well. You just need to remember to torque the cranks down with the steel bolts then remove them and replace with Alum. bolts.
> Titanium Chainring Bolts, Titanium Crank Bolts, Crank Arm Dust Caps


Oh thank you, because I wasn't already paralyzed by the amount of options I had! LOL.

So will a 111mm work where it's spec'ing a 113mm?

I need to get that tool there too. And the tool to hold the back of the chainring bolts. And the tool to remove the large one-piece crank nuts..

Thanks for the tip on the aluminum crank bolts! I'll have to check those out.


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

Grifter et al, any input on which is the best adapter? Does the wheel bolt just hold them all in place? Seems a little precarious, but seems to work per multiple builds.

Of the below which is the best/most proven?

Does the DM-UNI work on horizontal dropouts?

a2z Disc Brake Adapter, A2z DM-UNI, AD-PMR, A2z Components

http://images.channeladvisor.com/Sell/SSProfiles/43000189/Images/6/A2Z DM-UNI106.jpg

Disc Brake Bracket Billet - CYCLES U.S.

Custom Motored Bicycles - DISC BRAKES, ROTORS, 26 inch WHEELS, CONVERSION BRACKETS

Added this one...Looks nice and slides with wheel, A2Z doesn't

Rear Disc Brake Adapter

I like the custom one from this thread the best, bolts to old site to prevent rotation.

http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/hotrock-16-trials-build-830257-2.html#post11330826


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## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

They all work and have been used by others as well as the home-brew ones.
Looking at each:
A2Z is heavier but there is a small part at the top which rests against the farm and stops the unit & calliper from rotating. 

The Brake Billet/Choppers-r-us one rely's on a milled piece being held in place in the rear drop out but it lighter than A2Z

The Raw-Disc brake bracket is a new one to me but appears the cheapest/lightest and simplest and could be held in place with a zip tie or banjo bolt.

As long as which ever one is used is held secure by wheel/dropout and against the frame they should be fine.

If you can pick up some alloy sheet and have a bandsaw then you can actually make your own if you go back to one of my earlier posts.

Which ever one you went for you would still need the adaptor to fit the caliber to the size disc used but these are cheap anyway.


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

Thank you. It seems fairly precarious for something you are depending on for a "brake" but clearly it has worked for many.

A2Z seems like it is the sturdiest, is that what you used? I am not sure how the other ones are kept from rotating consistently, but I have not seen one in person. As you said the tab on the one seems like it is there for that purpose.

It is a bit silly how much time I have spend thinking about this as slapheadmofo has suggested! All would be saved if Specialized just put removable V brake bosses on the back of their frames for $5 at the time of manufacture!

Awesome community and appreciated.

I did find a little better deal on the evolution mounts which includes the posts for $50 for interested folks. Looks like they have anodized colors too.

Evolution V-brake aluminum mount clamps adapters (PAIR) SILVER

OSET wheel for disk in USA as well...

https://kingcobraofflorida.com/osetbikes/parts.php?category=Wheels


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

cakemonster said:


> It is a bit silly how much time I have spend thinking about this as slapheadmofo has suggested! All would be saved if Specialized just put removable V brake bosses on the back of their frames for $5 at the time of manufacture!
> 
> Awesome community and appreciated.


If you ever feel you just want to cut through all the retrofit BS, you can always go with a custom build. I have a buddy in NH that does great work. Not the cheapest route, but you can get whatever you want as far as frame details.

This is the 20 he did for his son



















...and a 24


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

Cool. Custom nice. I really like the Lil Shredder ICON, but sticking rigid at this point.

I feel like there is a niche not currently met in the market. 

-Too big for things like the banshee, with the low bottom bracket and short cranks. Pitboss nice, but 14.25 top tube really too short and not dirt jumper/MTN geometry. 4 year old rides 140's on his current mini converted "dirt jumper" with a 17 top tube, but it is too ungainly for park etc. 
-Would want aluminum 16 ~ 16.5 inch top tube, low standover, relatively higher bottom bracket to run 120's etc, but dirt jumper/mountain park type build. I think the Demo 9 hotrock with an 18 inch fork comes closest to that(though 16 hotrock frames come 13.5 and 15 inch TT depending on year). Can add 1 1/8 stem that is longer (60 even 80 mm), wider bars, 18 inch fork for clearance and run 120 cranks. 

Other option is to jump to a 20 hotrock and convert it to single speed, keep rear V, put carbon rigid Exotic fork for simple build, or just go to Spawn Savage 1 (now rigid but dual mechanical disks) but really looking for something like that in a long top tube 16. The Savage 1 looks like a great setup.

Honestly enjoy doing retrofit, just if putting in $$$ (so far as below good bikes for low $$$) want it to be solid and good. All the advice on here makes that possible and if I do the hotrock thing I will do a step by step with pics and references crediting all the people who helped.

Current bikes below (aside from United Tank for Park which I regret)

4 yo: Redline 200something Mini (got two old ones for $100, other one stock for "street riding"). Stripped paint, put on new sinz 140s (still have AC 155s), 36 x 18 gearing and 1 3/8 tires and new bottom bracket. 

Just 2 yo: Diamond Back girls balance bike($30), cut down stem so bars down, decals removed, cut down strider seat(free), kenda Kontact 12s($12). Rides everything his brother does at the park. 7 lbs.


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