# Need some educated advice



## Where's Bruce? (May 6, 2016)

I spend considerable time in the backcountry...weeks at a time. There are places I wish to go but cannot because the distance and lack of access to water prevents me from getting there. The way in starts at 5000' and ends at just under 11,000' so I am looking for a mt. e-bike to get there that meets these requirements:

29" wheels
No pnuematic brakes (if they fail you're screwed)
Need a rack w/ lg saddlebacks
Can haul 300lbs at least 5 miles uphill
Doesn't cost $15K
If solar rechargable that would be awesome

I am thinking e-bike because I'm pushing 60 and the distance up the mountain to water might kill me if I get stuck. I can't hike it so pushing a bike won't help either. Other than mountain and electric bikes no other motorized vehicle is allowed.

Is there a reasonably priced bike that will get to such a place or am I dreaming?


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Should be able to do it for a lot less. Get a 29"er, you may even consider a fat bike, that meets your requirements regarding brakes and stoutness. Rack and panniers are readily available however to carry a heavy load with a rack system you would be restricted to a hardtail. A good used one should be able to be had for around $2000 or even less. New more of course.

Get a Bafang BBSHD mid drive with at least a 15ah battery, Luna Cycles is a good source. Solar charging systems are available that put out 110v that you can hook up to your charger, it will just take awhile. But even in steep terrain with that much weight you should be able to get 20+ miles out of a charge. Figure around $1300 for the e setup. For about $4k you should have everything you need.

No issues with electric at elevation like gas motors.


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## Where's Bruce? (May 6, 2016)

Very helpful, thank you. Figuered a hardtail with shock absorbing seat and since i'm the bulk of the weight the saddleback only need to hold two 35-40lb dry bags. What is 15ah? I'm looking at e-bakes and they all seem to be rated by watts. How long can a good back-up battery hold a charge if not in use?.


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## pxpaulx (Aug 5, 2014)

Where's Bruce? said:


> Very helpful, thank you. Figuered a hardtail with shock absorbing seat and since i'm the bulk of the weight the saddleback only need to hold two 35-40lb dry bags. What is 15ah? I'm looking at e-bakes and they all seem to be rated by watts. How long can a good back-up battery hold a charge if not in use?.


The motor is measured in watts - the batteries are measured with a combination of amp hours (AH) and voltage. For batteries, you'd also multiply the volts by the amp hours to get the total watt hours. For instance, a 48v 13.5ah battery that luna cycle sells would be 648 watt hours.

There is also a general rule of thumb that you get 1 mile of travel per 15-20 watt hours used. Since you'll be pulling a larger load, you might even want to estimate at 1 mile per 25 watt hours to be conservative. that same battery above would get you about 25 miles if using 25 watt hours. Now, if you're contributing to the pedaling, you could bring it back down to 20 watts/mile conservatively and expect 30-32 miles out of the pack. These are very conservative estimates, and mid-drives are also the most efficient motor types, as long as you're using your gearing correctly.

I agree with the other poster as well, the BBSHD on a fat bike would be a great combination for your expected use. You could keep costs down going with a bikes direct fat bike as well, and come in around $2,500-3K depending on the bike chosen.

For a shock post, I'd take a look at the suntour sp12-ncx - order from europe for by far the best prices (I got mine from bike-discount.de in less than a week for around $80 - half what a thudbuster goes for and it works well).


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

What back country would you be in that would allow e-bikes?

You're planning on riding terrain that you can't hike? This seems like a poorly thought out plan. 

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## dstepper (Feb 28, 2004)

Bigwheel said:


> Solar charging systems are available that put out 110v that you can hook up to your charger, it will just take awhile.
> .


Can you point me in the right direction to buy solar charging small enough to bike pack with.

Dean


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I would look at one of the Bikes Direct fat bikes with a BBSHD and a 20ah battery in the triangle. If you want to stick with a rear derailleur system any of them will do, but if you decide to go with an IGH and an unbreakable single speed chain your choices are more limited. There is only one IGH with a 190mm spacing: the Sturmey-Archer 3-speed, if you drop down to BDs cheapest fatty the SS Deadeye Monster at $399, the 135mm rear axle lets you choose between Shimano's Nexus 3 and SA's 3 and 5-speeds. There are other IGHs with more gears, but except the Rholoff they won't live long on your mission. I believe they have this frame available in a 29er version in singlespeed for $399 as well. An IGH will run $100/130 plus wheel building services if needed. 

If there is a speed limit to qualify for access like in CA (20mph Max for Class 1), then you will need to gear a 10 or 11 speed cassette pretty low to stay legal. In my area since I have to keep below 20mph under assist, a 3 or 5 speed IGH and the right combination of cogs and chainwheel will keep me legal, but still climb anything I care to try these days.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

dstepper said:


> Can you point me in the right direction to buy solar charging small enough to bike pack with.
> 
> Dean


It depends on what you want to charge. Lot's of options for cell phone/gps type but for a larger battery you need a bigger panel which can be carried more or less easily via the help from the e motor.

And batteries are heavy and there is no need to have a 20ah battery if you are only planning on going 20 or so miles I feel. A bigger ah battery does not provide more power/torque it just is the fuel tank. You are probably best off looking at a 48/52v system over 36v as that does help with power and torque.

Another thing to consider is that the Battery Management System (BMS) will cut off the battery leaving about 10-15% of the charge because Lithium batteries do not like to be discharged all the way to flat. Actually no battery does. My 11ah battery cuts of at 9.36ah as an example. So factor that in to your mileage calcs along with terrain, weight and amount of pedaling input.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I was thinking about the 300lb load in addition to the rider using a lot of power on the way up...... That's a lot of weight to lift 5000'.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

WoodlandHills said:


> I was thinking about the 300lb load in addition to the rider using a lot of power on the way up...... That's a lot of weight to lift 5000'.


" i'm the bulk of the weight the saddleback only need to hold two 35-40lb dry bags"

300 lb total.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Dean --- look at Hi-Power cycles for portable solar chargers.

WB, +1 with WH --- BBSHD should fulfill your requirements for less than $1500 for conversion (plus the cost of the bike). Go to electricfatbike.com to learn more than you ever want to know about BBS systems. Another possibility is a BionX 500d kit which must be installed by a reputable dealer. I was amazed by its power on a 29er installation. 

BTW, is it really that dangerous if you have a malfunction? Can't you coast back down (just wondering).


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## Where's Bruce? (May 6, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> What back country would you be in that would allow e-bikes?
> 
> You're planning on riding terrain that you can't hike? This seems like a poorly thought out plan.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


We're talking about BLM/Nat'l Forest areas (not designated Wilderness areas) where a person carrying a pack cannot carry enough water to make the trek on foot. A bike solves alot of this and riding in pairs greatly reduces the risk. A bike can carry more water than a person on foot can.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I was thinking that if WB had enough concern about range that he was considering solar charging in the field, perhaps he should just carry enough "fuel". Depending upon the seasonal weather he may not get enough amp hours from his solar charger to replace what he used getting there within a reasonable time. I'm not well informed of the cost of portable solar panels, but it might even be cheaper to buy the bigger battery than to buy enough solar to be worthwhile. And, at the end of the day, it may all weigh about the same. Perhaps those who know can help?

Compared to a battery that can fit into the triangle, any solar system will be a lot harder to load and carry and easier to damage in a spill.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Where's Bruce? said:


> We're talking about BLM/Nat'l Forest areas (not designated Wilderness areas) where a person carrying a pack cannot carry enough water to make the trek on foot. A bike solves alot of this and riding in pairs greatly reduces the risk. A bike can carry more water than a person on foot can.


As long as it's on a road or motorized trail, you're fine. E-bikes are not legal on non-motorized trails on BLM and USFS land.

Having hiked and biked extensively in quite a few states, other than open desert, there are very few places you CAN'T find, filter and purify water.

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## Where's Bruce? (May 6, 2016)

WoodlandHills said:


> I was thinking that if WB had enough concern about range that he was considering solar charging in the field, perhaps he should just carry enough "fuel". Depending upon the seasonal weather he may not get enough amp hours from his solar charger to replace what he used getting there within a reasonable time. I'm not well informed of the cost of portable solar panels, but it might even be cheaper to buy the bigger battery than to buy enough solar to be worthwhile. And, at the end of the day, it may all weigh about the same. Perhaps those who know can help?
> 
> Compared to a battery that can fit into the triangle, any solar system will be a lot harder to load and carry and easier to damage in a spill.


Looking at 1-2 weeks in the backcountry on the bike at a time, camping in different locations, lake and river hopping. The solar panels I have currently charge my electronics but a roll-up panel that's 5'-6' long should be able to recharge a battery in a full day or two of sunshine during summer/fall. My research says you lose about 10-15% from the inverter transfer but that's okay. I would not be riding with the panel deployed. Like you I would be hitting some spots in the Sierras and others in AZ. Plenty of places don't have water sources in these areas.

I'm in OC...who built your bike(s) WH?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I built my own from the information found on electricbike-blog.com/electric fatbike.com, Karl has done most of the research and has come up with several good recipes. I just shamelessly copied him!

Given the crossover in frames at Bikes Direct, I would not be surprised to find that there are 29er versions of Karls fatbikes. I know that my Deadeye frame is available in 29" under another name.


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> As long as it's on a road or motorized trail, you're fine. E-bikes are not legal on non-motorized trails on BLM and USFS land.
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


They may not be legal to ride, but what about using them as mules while hiking?


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## Where's Bruce? (May 6, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> As long as it's on a road or motorized trail, you're fine. E-bikes are not legal on non-motorized trails on BLM and USFS land.
> 
> Having hiked and biked extensively in quite a few states, other than open desert, there are very few places you CAN'T find, filter and purify water.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


What specific regulations(s) are you citing? Aside from designated Wilderness areas/Nat'l & State Parks...can you provide a specific reg or link support this claim? This is what I was reading:

*California[edit]*

Electric Bicycles are defined by the California Vehicle Code.[SUP][65][/SUP]<
New legislation became effective January 2016. The current regulations define an "electric bicycle": a bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts, separated into three classes: *A "class 1 electric bicycle," or "low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle," is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour. (2) A "class 2 electric bicycle," or "low-speed throttle-assisted electric bicycle," is a bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.* A "class 3 electric bicycle," or "speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle," is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, (no throttle) and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour, and equipped with a speedometer. Local government ordinances are allowed to permit or ban any class of electric bicycles on dedicated bicycle paths and trails, *with Class 1 & 2 permitted*, and Class 3 banned, by default. Beginning January 1, 2017, manufacturers and distributors of electric bicycles will be required to apply a label that is permanently affixed, in a prominent location, to each electric bicycle, indicating it's class. Should a user "tamper with or modify" an electric bicycle, changing the speed capability, they must replace the label indicating the classification.
Driver's licenses, registration, insurance and license plate requirements do not apply. An electric bicycle is not a motor vehicle. Drinking and driving laws apply. Additional laws or ordinances may apply to the use of electric bicycles by each city or county.


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## Where's Bruce? (May 6, 2016)

WoodlandHills said:


> I built my own from the information found on electricbike-blog.com/electric fatbike.com, Karl has done most of the research and has come up with several good recipes. I just shamelessly copied him!
> 
> Given the crossover in frames at Bikes Direct, I would not be surprised to find that there are 29er versions of Karls fatbikes. I know that my Deadeye frame is available in 29" under another name.


Oops! That page can't be found. So for a bike comparable to your, how much (sans solar power and extra batt) should it run me roughly?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/...02-41lb-single-track-e-bike-765-wo-batteries/

I am pretty sure that this is the same bike in 29":

Save up to 60% off new 29Plus Fat Bikes and Mountain Bikes - MTB - Motobecane 2015 Fantom 29+SS 29PLUS Single Speed Fat Bikes, Mountain Bikes

Add another $130 for the 5-speed hub and $50 for the 30t chainwheel. The prices for batteries are all over the place depending upon size, shape and cell type, so that is going to be up to you and your needs. I would only suggest that you stick to 52v so you will have adequate performance all the way down to the Low Voltage Level cutoff.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Where's Bruce? said:


> What specific regulations(s) are you citing? Aside from designated Wilderness areas...can you provide a specific reg or link support this claim? This is what I was reading:
> 
> *California[edit]*
> 
> ...


Assuming this is not a joke:

Federal land is not governed by California law.

I.e., Federal land, federal law.

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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

Where's Bruce? said:


> What specific regulations(s) are you citing? Aside from designated Wilderness areas/Nat'l & State Parks...can you provide a specific reg or link support this claim? This is what I was reading:
> [/FONT][/COLOR]


IM 2015-060, Electronic Powered Bicycles on Public Lands

http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/20150929EBikesBriefingPaper.pdf

Unfortunately California vehicle code has no bearing on non motorized trails on federal lands.

So if your backcountry is BLM/FS land and it is posted non motorized then ebikes are no bueno.

All the regular ebike posters here that continue to avoid pointing out this salient fact, and promote the civil disobedience of newcomers that may or may not be aware of the current state of regulations, do a disservice to the future of ebikes and their future access.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

WB, there are a few "experts" in CA law that poison every thread; just read over them and you'll receive your information. As for me, I'll be out riding my bike in an hour or so.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

fos'l said:


> WB, there are a few "experts" in CA law that poison every thread; just read over them and you'll receive your information. As for me, I'll be out riding my bike in an hour or so.


It doesn't take an "expert" in CA law to understand the fact that FEDERAL LAW is what governs activities on FEDERAL LAND.

I.e., California's laws have nothing to do with this issue. The land might be within the borders of CA, but it is not owned, operated, or governed by CA.


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

fos'l said:


> WB, there are a few "experts" in CA law that poison every thread; just read over them and you'll receive your information. As for me, I'll be out riding my bike in an hour or so.


California law has nothing to do with federal lands, and your kneejerk reaction to what you perceive as our bias is laughable.

Continuing to act like ebikes are not classified as motorized when asking specifically about use on federal lands is promoting illegal use of ebikes.

You sir are poisoning ebiking in its entirety by not presenting newcomers with the current status of ebikes as motorized. One only need be an engaged citizen with a modicum of English understanding to read in plain language from the land managers themselves that ebikes are not classified the same as bicycles. They are motorized full stop period. Local management discretion does exist, but that is a far cry from the rosy colored smelling of koolaid interpretation that non motorized trails are open to ebikes unless posted, and they would need to have publicly posted signage giving access to ebikes.

Your beef should be with the Forest Service's Travel Management Rule, not with those pointing out you are advocating for people to break it.

Ebikes ARE motorized, those are not my feelings or ideas, it IS the current classification given by the Forest Service to ebikes. No hate, simple statement of fact. The Forest Service being the largest governing agency with explicit rules on non motorized trails has it's TMR used by many state and local authorities for determining access to non motorized trails. The beloved AB-1086 was not intended and does not change the status of ebikes on non motorized trails as it only governs vehicle code and they are not part ot its regulatory authority.
Local managers may be inclined in California to open some non motorized trails to class 1 & 2 ebikes, but that would be done on a case by case basis as there to date has not been any change in any law that would grant blanket access to non motorized trails to ebikes.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

OP, why not get a regular bike for bikepacking. Like one of the new 27.5 or 29er plus sized. A lot less dead weight, no battery etc. Water? Plan ahead and get something to filter it with. Not everyone can climb everest, do something within your scope and means. How much pushing will you have to do with a week of cloudy weather? Refuel your own batteries. I like beef jerky, salami and oatmeal for my longer rides.


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## Where's Bruce? (May 6, 2016)

leeboh said:


> OP, why not get a regular bike for bikepacking. Like one of the new 27.5 or 29er plus sized. A lot less dead weight, no battery etc. Water? Plan ahead and get something to filter it with. Not everyone can climb everest, do something within your scope and means. How much pushing will you have to do with a week of cloudy weather? Refuel your own batteries. I like beef jerky, salami and oatmeal for my longer rides.


You really think I spend weeks in the backcountry w/o a water filter? LOL 
I personnify the "gear ho" with UL camping gear but wanted to travel faster and easier. Regrettably it seems many of the intended places I wanna go have restrictions (as some have pointed out here). I spoke to the staff at USFS - Cleveland National Forest and ran down a list of regions I intended to visit and all of them were off limits to bikes. Seems I have come full circle and back to my Kifaru packs and burning boot leather. So thanks for the info but given the significant restrictions I've discovered I just don't see a fatbike in my future. I have a Landrider that I have used on and off the street that suits me but an e-bike just stopped looking practical thanks to governmental BS. Arrggg.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^ Travel faster? Try coffee. Government BS? Some places should be just for human powered exploration. Lots of the UK you can ride anything anywhere. Easy? Just drive paved roads and take pics at the pull outs on the side of the road. Or get a bike sherpa.


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## Where's Bruce? (May 6, 2016)

leeboh said:


> ^^^ Travel faster? Try coffee. Government BS? Some places should be just for human powered exploration. Lots of the UK you can ride anything anywhere. Easy? Just drive paved roads and take pics at the pull outs on the side of the road. Or get a bike sherpa.


Sarcasm aside...I have a big problem with the way the feds abuse our rights regarding OUR LAND! it is bought and paid for by WE THE PEOPLE and the Constitution does not allow the BS our government is imposing on us.



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153422864305764


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Easy there, Sarah Palin. 2 and 10 all the way, but can't name any others.

Also, key words: "OUR LAND". Not "YOUR LAND". Everyone.

Those who support the states owning the National Forests and BLM land want no part in paying the multi-billion dollar cost of fighting fires and maintaining that land. They want something for nothing. They want states own the land and its resources, but don't want to pay to protect it.

And, Federal policy is subject to change: exercise your vote. Write to your reps. Submit comments during public comment periods. I'm guessing you've done none of those things.


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## Where's Bruce? (May 6, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Easy there, Sarah Palin. 2 and 10 all the way, but can't name any others.
> 
> Also, key words: "OUR LAND". Not "YOUR LAND". Everyone.
> 
> ...


For a stranger who has never met me, you sure seem to think you know everything about me. Of course, your ASSumptions are completely wrong and I won't waste my time educating you since you apparently already know everything. Cya.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I know you don't know the difference between CA and Federal land/law, and trot out some right wing 10A drivel when you find out you can't get your way. 

Oh, and apparently you are too weak to pedal a bike, and too feeble-minded to find water.

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## kneecap (Dec 20, 2003)

Not wanting to get in a shouting match here, BUT...the U.S. taxpayer pays for ALL government managed land, whether Fed., state, or local.

All management funds come out of our pockets. No agencies operate with any prophet whatsoever.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

fos'l said:


> WB, there are a few "experts" in CA law that poison every thread; just read over them and you'll receive your information. As for me, I'll be out riding my bike in an hour or so.


Not sure how you can say that clarifying what the law is around e-bikes in California is poisoning every e-bike thread. You may not like it, but that does not change what the law is in California.

And if you are wondering, e-bikes, along with every other vehicle, including bicycles are not allowed on any state or county park trail unless the land managers of that park specifically permits a particular vehicle to be used in that park.

So, unless the land managers of any state or county park in CA has specifically granted the use of e-bikes on their trails, they are not allowed to be used there.

Oh, and that's not me saying that, but and actual "expert" who says that. Please send him and email or give him a call.









As for if the park already allows bicycles to be used on trails, that does not in anyway apply to e-bikes, since bicycles and e-bikes are 2 different vehicles from each other and defined differently. The park would need to revise their rules to include the word "e-bikes" for them to be allowed.

231. A bicycle is a device upon which any person may ride,
*propelled exclusively by human power* through a belt, chain, or gears, and having one or more wheels. Persons riding bicycles are subject to the provisions of this code specified in Sections 21200 and
21200.5.

312.5. (a) An "electric bicycle" is a bicycle equipped with fully
operable pedals *and an electric motor *of less than 750 watts.

As for the part of the CVC that was specifically included in AB-1096 that bans all vehicles from being used on state and county park lands unless specific permission is given for that vehicle to be allowed, here it is...
(just read the bold if it seems too wordy)

21113. (a) *A person shall not drive a vehicle *or animal, or stop, park, or leave standing a vehicle or animal, whether attended or unattended, *upon the driveways, paths, parking facilities, or the grounds of any* public school, state university, state college, *unit of the state park system, county park,* municipal airport, rapid transit district, transit development board, transit district, public transportation agency, county transportation commission created pursuant to Section 130050 of the Public Utilities Code, joint powers agency operating or managing a commuter rail system, or any property under the direct control of the legislative body of a municipality, or a state, county, or hospital district institution or building, or an educational institution exempted, in whole or in part, from taxation, or any harbor improvement district or harbor district formed pursuant to Part 2 (commencing with Section 5800) or Part 3 (commencing with Section 6000) of Division 8 of the Harbors and Navigation Code, a district organized pursuant to Part 3 (commencing with Section 27000) of Division 16 of the Streets and Highways Code, or state grounds served by the Department of the California Highway Patrol, or any property under the possession or control of a housing authority formed pursuant to Article 2 (commencing with Section 34240) of Chapter 1 of Part 2 of Division 24 of the Health and Safety Code, *except with the permission of*, and upon and subject to any condition or regulation that may be imposed by, *the legislative body of the municipality*, or the governing board or officer of the public school, state university, state college, county park, municipal airport, rapid transit district, transit development board, transit district, public transportation agency, county transportation commission, joint powers agency operating or managing a commuter rail system, or state, county, or hospital district institution or building, or educational institution, or harbor district, or a district organized pursuant to Part 3 (commencing with Section 27000) of Division 16 of the Streets and Highways Code, or housing authority, *or the Director of Parks and Recreation regarding units of the state park system or the state agency with jurisdiction over the grounds *served by the Department of the California Highway Patrol.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

When you are riding on BLM or Nat forest land and you come across a BLM ranger if he says anything just quote the Cal code , then after he writes you a big ticket then you will understand the diff between fed and state law .


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