# Who's on the MadMax bandwagon?



## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Scenario...
Bigger Watts = More Speed

No regulations! E-bikes should not be governed on trails as far as power!

Do we govern pedal riders? Saying "oh man that guy is too powerful don't let him ride our trails" Hell no! Usually we try to chase him down and challenge him wanting to be like him! Do we tell pedal riders: "Hey man slow down your having too much fun at that speed"

Trails aren't sustainable now? Won't handle E-bikes? Well genius' let's get out the slide rules and make them better! Build them for E-bike use!

Bigger Faster Stronger...
...calling Detroit, we need more power!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

No No low power only for reg Mt bike trails no 5000w bombers if the bike does no more of a impact as a reg MT bike then ok. It wont be a big deal no need to make it a big deal


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

Even mods trolling in here, what a great addition this forum has been for mtbr!


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

This is the exact reason these e-mtbs shouldn't be allowed AT ALL on marked non-motorized trails. 3000+w that reach 40mph without even pedaling, just mash the throttle. You're not even riding a bike anymore.

You're really more of a troll than a moderator.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

NEPMTBA said:


> Bigger Faster Stronger...
> ...calling Detroit, we need more power!


Surely you're joking?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Or drunk maybe?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I certainly don't see why one cannot have the full 750w that US law permits. Since when did Americans allow EU bureaucrats to make our rules: 350w may be the limit in Europe, but not here. Federal rules permit up to 750w here......


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

You'll never know...
...or will you?


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## DannyvG (Apr 21, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> I 350w may be the limit in Europe, but not here. Federal rules permit up to 750w here......


In Europa (or most of it) it is actually 250W but it is a max continuous power out. If you look at the Bosch middrive motor with 75Nm torque with 80rpm that equates to 80/60*2*pi*75=628W of peak power and I presume the 750W of the US is defined as peak power.

Perhaps the ebikes shouldnt be speed limited but they sure need to be power limited and pedal assist only (no throttle).

@nepmtba, These kind of topics wont help the acceptance of ebikes...


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

I will be purchasing an E MTB in the next month and don't think any more power is needed. Only low power pedal assist bikes should be allowed on certain mountain bike trails. E MTB owners should stay off trails that are high traffic multi use trails where potential conflicts or accidents can occur. More power will only add to the risk factor.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

And now stooping so low. Mod, keep them in PA. Here in MA, we have rules. No motor vehicles allowed. We also have these shallow holes in the forest from where we get good mineral dirt to build our trails, called doner pits. Way off the trail, in the middle of the woods......


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I am coming


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

too much info^


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Perfect High point raceway I will be in town for the Out door MX Natl now were is your trail????


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## Singletrack29er (Oct 13, 2015)

Moderator is clearly trolling here, but from what I have read he is a proponent for E-bikes. The PA specific forums had a negative response to his posting about E-bikes and he has since diverted his attention here. I think his intention is more so intended to elicit a response and open conversation, but with how hot of a topic this has become (and the fact I do not support E-bikes outside of those legitimately handicapped riding on OHV trails) I think this method is a bit unconventional haha!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

NEPMTBA said:


> Trails aren't sustainable now? Won't handle E-bikes? Well genius' let's get out the slide rules and make them better! Build them for E-bike use!


How about all the e-bikers get together and do the frigging work themselves? Worked for real bikers. I give more than enough of my 'free' time doing trailwork for mountain bikes, now I should be putting in extra because riding them is too much effort for some people?

Maybe some of you geniuses should start working on designing an e-shovel and an e-wheelbarrow. Get out there in the woods and work up an e-sweat.


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> How about all the e-bikers get together and do the frigging work themselves? Worked for real bikers. I give more than enough of my 'free' time doing trailwork for mountain bikes, now I should be putting in extra because riding them is too much effort for some people?
> 
> Maybe some of you geniuses should start working on designing an e-shovel and an e-wheelbarrow. Get out there in the woods and work up an e-sweat.


e-yeah!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

well mabey e bikers are scared that the e bike haters will hold us down and take are battery and throw it over a cliff like shopmockey did


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> How about all the e-bikers get together and do the frigging work themselves? Worked for real bikers. I give more than enough of my 'free' time doing trailwork for mountain bikes, now I should be putting in extra because riding them is too much effort for some people?
> 
> Maybe some of you geniuses should start working on designing an e-shovel and an e-wheelbarrow. Get out there in the woods and work up an e-sweat.


 I agree with you, but you have all ready defined that e-bikers won't do trail work? How do you arrive at that? Do you ride with e-bikers? My friends and I all ready have an e bike club and are working towards helping and promoting e-bikes and the new community.

Personally I do plenty of work on mtb, moto trails as well as build race tracks, so of course I'm willing to build e-bike trails. I'm hoping it will bring more out to help with trails. You can't tell me every e-biker is a bad ass just as every mt biker isn't either. We will have the few rogue e-bikers just as every community has theirs.

I would love to have an e shovel, and you should too as to you could do more work in a shorter time.

A few questions:

So it would be better to have a fuel powered wheel barrow polluting the area rather than an e powered one running cleaner?

What's wrong with better trails? I don't really see much difference in building other than a bit more sub base to help with the added weight of e-bikes.

Trolling? Ya like I need to Trolll...
...I'm all ready a star on mtbr...LOL


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I would be happy to help with anything related to keeping the trail up, I just bought a ST park pass that's $50 . Plus the new MT bike permit new this yr $20 (right on I like this) , But I am handicap and use a lowpower E bike so I wouldn ,t be welcome that's clear just read some of the hate on here . I am afraid I would be treated like we are on this form


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

^^Have no fear the hate must have it's time to rear it's ugly head, but things will change as more supporters gather...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

NEPMTBA said:


> I agree with you, but you have all ready defined that e-bikers won't do trail work?L


Feel free to prove me wrong, just don't go expecting/demanding others do your work for you. This applies especially with regard to trying to piggyback on MTBers success as far as trail access and the goodwill we've built with land managers based on sweat equity. As long as e-bikes are treated as a distinct user group, I wish you luck as long as you don't screw anything up for real bikers or make our workload even bigger.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> I would be happy to help with anything related to keeping the trail up, I just bought a ST park pass that's $50 . Plus the new MT bike permit new this yr $20 (right on I like this) , But I am handicap and use a lowpower E bike so I wouldn ,t be welcome that's clear just read some of the hate on here . I am afraid I would be treated like we are on this form


You should see someone about your persecution issues.

Spending money isn't the same as doing actual work. There's nothing stopping you from volunteering to do trail work as soon as right now, and making it a regular part of your life. You want to build bridges with the MTB community? This is the absolute best way to do it.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> Federal rules permit up to 750w here......


Nope, the feds consider them motor vehicles since they have motors. You can ride them where motos ride though and without power limits, what's not to love?

IM 2015-060, Electronic Powered Bicycles on Public Lands

http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/20150929EBikesBriefingPaper.pdf


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> Feel free to prove me wrong, just don't go expecting/demanding others do your work for you. This applies especially with regard to trying to piggyback on MTBers success as far as trail access and the goodwill we've built with land managers based on sweat equity. As long as e-bikes are treated as a distinct user group, I wish you luck as long as you don't screw anything up for real bikers or make our workload even bigger.


Yup. It'd be a real good idea for ebikers to check their e-entitlement at the door and be proactive about advocacy. If you already struggle to gain acceptance in the cycling community imagine the battles coming when you have to prove your points to the public? And, just like regular mtbers, you will have to and repeatedly.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Yup.
If you think the reception here is chilly, wait until you try to sell motors on non-motorized trails to a bunch of HoH's and Audobon-types. Better get some thicker skin.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I think the Audubon birdwatchers and the hunters will take to a silent low impact access vehicle for the more remote trails like ducks to water....... As I posted elsewhere, Cabelas has already begun to market ebikes to the cammo crowd for next deer season. It won't be long before you will be able to buy one with a rack for your tree stand and your rifle or your camera and telephoto lenses. 

The fact is, a tiny electric motor makes an MTB and especially a Fatbike an extremely useful tool as opposed to simply an outdoor exercise machine....... Expect lots of other people to realize this too.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> I think the Audubon birdwatchers and the hunters will take to a silent low impact access vehicle for the more remote trails like ducks to water.......


You have a lot to learn.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> The fact is, a tiny electric motor makes an MTB and especially a Fatbike an extremely useful tool as opposed to simply an outdoor exercise machine....... Expect lots of other people to realize this too.


Yes it does have its place in the world, just not on marked non-motorized trails...... Expect few e-bikers to realize this too.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> I think the Audubon birdwatchers and the hunters will take to a silent low impact access vehicle for the more remote trails like ducks to water.


Maybe? I doubt it though. I hunt and the majority of hunters that I see in the west, like most americans, are fat and out of shape. Most guys use pickups and quads to get around and then maybe hike in a short distance. Some, the ones with money, use horses since they can bushwack with them. A minority like me, hike everywhere. Most hunting access is via vehicles on a dirt road and then by foot since trails don't usually get you where you need to be anyway. Hunting fatbikes never sold since even if you were fit enough, it's a ***** to ride with all the gear and it'll only get you so far anyway. One other problem and a reason that you don't see motorcycles used hunting is that once you get a large animal down, you can't use it to haul it out, so now you're stuck with two unwieldy objects to deal with.

Plus, since you can buy a used quad cheaper than a efat bike, why bother? It's way more useful for hunting and more fun for the average idiot to ride.

So, I'm skeptical the hook and bullet crowd will dive in.



WoodlandHills said:


> The fact is, a tiny electric motor makes an MTB and especially a Fatbike an extremely useful tool as opposed to simply an outdoor exercise machine....... Expect lots of other people to realize this too.


No argument from me, they are great tools. It's still not going to change the oppositions mind though, I don't expect the rosy picture of the "ebikes everywhere!" future to last.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> I think the Audubon birdwatchers and the hunters will take to a silent low impact access vehicle for the more remote trails like ducks to water....... As I posted elsewhere, Cabelas has already begun to market ebikes to the cammo crowd for next deer season. It won't be long before you will be able to buy one with a rack for your tree stand and your rifle or your camera and telephoto lenses.
> 
> The fact is, a tiny electric motor makes an MTB and especially a Fatbike an extremely useful tool as opposed to simply an outdoor exercise machine....... Expect lots of other people to realize this too.


 No Audubon areas where I walk ( MA) and bring my binoculars allow mt bikes. And you're going bring out your field dressed buck on an e motorcycle? Good luck with that. Usually on the remote dirt roads the hunters park the atv or pickup and then hand drag them out. Maybe your experience is different?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

yap yap yap love the Part timers In 3yr you will see E bikes being ridden on every trail including your personl trail that you built your self , get on board or get out of the way


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^^ Wow, nice brag. Maybe in Indy, not here in MA. Way technical trails. Good luck lofting your heavy wheels up and over some logs and rocks here. Not my personal trail, a multi use trail built for hikers, bikers( non motorized) and sometimes horses as well. And dogs. We mt bikers work with hikers, birders, dog walkers as well as conservation groups doing trail work. In MA state parks with their own rules( no motorized vehicles) Don't like the law? Change it. Good luck with that. Your going to get everyone out of the way? ummm, right. Guess I need to up the size of my concealed carry. Might take some more fps to get though an e motorcycle battery. Consider yourself warned. " Rider95" if you have an ADA HP, no issues, you can get access, but an in your face attitude might lead to some pushback. Just saying.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I just read his posts using Ricky's voice in my head, it puts them in context.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

you gonna look funny walking bow legged until someone can pull that out you might want to use a smaller gun just saying .


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I remember doing an awful lot of ATCing and hiking setting up and checking game cameras and looking for good spots before the season opened which could be done by a stealthy ebike..... As far as packing out a dressed kill, Google Ho Chi Minh Trail to see how easy it is to carry hundreds of pounds on a pushbike. Walking alongside of an ebike with a load on each side of the triangle and a thumb on the throttle allows you to easily climb hills with far more load than a man can carry.

It is kind of insulting to insinuate that all hunters are fat Bubbas, do you really know any keen hunters? Go out to any construction site in Arkansas, Maine or Oregon and ask how many roofers or framers or drywall hangers get their yearly deer or moose. I have yet to see a fat roofer or framer, but maybe things are different where you live? The drywall guys can go either way.....


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> Walking alongside of an ebike with a load on each side of the triangle and a thumb on the throttle allows you to easily climb hills with far more load than a man can carry.


Wait, I thought the whole "they're just like a regular bike" argument was based on that you have to pedal?



WoodlandHills said:


> It is kind of insulting to insinuate that all hunters are fat Bubbas, do you really know any keen hunters?


I said most, not all. And I do, although keen hunters here are outnumbered by those who are not, mostly from out of state. Lot's O bubbas in the woods in the fall.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I don't know of any place you can hunt where that is a requirement, certainly any area that permits hunting on quads has no rules against throttles! The State parks that surround my city require ebikes to be Class 1 compliant and that's fine by me. But they don't let you shoot the deer....... It's no big deal to install the throttle before I ride where it's not an issue just like its no big deal to take it off to comply. The bike works fine either way......


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

The part timers don't know the diff from pedal assit or thumb or twist


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> Rider95" if you have an ADA HP, no issues, you can get access, but an in your face attitude might lead to some pushback. Just saying.


Yup. An entitled 'you people owe me trails' outlook and a major lack of volunteerism has worked just great of the motorized crowd in our area. Shut out of practically ever park and forest in the state.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> The part timers don't know the diff from pedal assit or thumb or twist


Well, I know my quads and snowmobiles are thumb and my motos are twist.
I know what pedal assist is, but I don't need it and don't see any reason to ride a half-assed moped when I can ride either a real bicycle or a real dirt bike.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

yub that's me the entitled one cant wait for Walmart to start selling e bikes


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Well, I know my quads and snowmobiles are thumb and my motos are twist.
> I know what pedal assist is, but I don't need it and don't see any reason to ride a half-assed moped when I can ride either a real bicycle or a real dirt bike.


Um, maybe because it's just fun??


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

That's on BLM land and I am the Mt bike community have been since the 80s not like the part timers ,


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rider95 said:


> That's on BLM land and I am the Mt bike community have been since the 80s not like the part timers ,


Um. What are you even referring to? You make the most disjointed posts I've ever seen.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Well, I know my quads and snowmobiles are thumb and my motos are twist.
> I know what pedal assist is, but I don't need it and don't see any reason to ride a half-assed moped when I can ride either a real bicycle or a real dirt bike.


 We are all quite clear that YOU can't see any reason to ride an ebike, it's too bad that you can't also see that lots of others do. Even with all the abuse on this forum folks still drop in and express support, so even on MTBR this is of interest. If ebikes are getting even a tiny bit of support in a place like MTBR, I wonder how they are being accepted by everyone else?


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