# Can I have a little rant



## Spud 395 (Feb 5, 2008)

I know I'm a noobie here, but been around for a while 

I was up doing some trail maintaince today, had the kids with me, good times.

Our trail network consists of a dedicated DH track (that we run national ranking race's on)
and maybe 12-15 k of sweet techy singletrack.
There is a small group of builders, 4 really, with some other guys helping out now and again. 
I love to build and maintain trails so this is no problem.

Anyway back to today.
We were just getting back to the van when as a biker was starting his push up.
Now this is a pretty remote area and I know everyone that rides the hill, if I meet someone new I will go out of my way to get to know them and be friendly.
So I was walking to the back of the van with the pick and shovel over my shoulder and this guy is ignoring me.
I give him a friendly hello and admire his bike.
Not a grunt as he pushes past me and on up the hill.

I dont want praise or medals, I wouldnt do it if I didnt enjoy it.

I would however appricate a little more than that.

Sorry about that, it's a bit heavy for a new guy but he really annoyed me, rant over


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## Uncle Six Pack (Aug 29, 2004)

Spud 395 said:


> I know I'm a noobie here, but been around for a while
> 
> I was up doing some trail maintaince today, had the kids with me, good times.
> 
> ...


Yep, had one of those a couple of weeks ago-college kid on a walmart bike with no helmet. I got the dog to the side of the singletrack as he approached. I smiled and said, "hi". He acted as if I wasn't even there.... then about 100 feet later, he skidded to a stop to adjust his hat. d-bag. This particular trail (My Dirty Little Secret) was basically unknown until the weather got nice and people started exploring. I guess it attracted a lot of attention because people around here aren't used to seeing lots of north shore (OK, SMALL north shore) style features. Thank goodness things are getting green and leafy now-maybe that will help to hide stuff enough so that the d-bags don't find it.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

The nice thing about being a trail builder is that people think nothing of you walking around with an axe and a shovel. 

Connect the dots.

And don't ever tell.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

Either he's got too much Ipod going, or he just wanted you to know how intense and focused he is. Your good and he's shallow...never let other people acting wrongly discourage you, Spud, never. K.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

rideit said:


> The nice thing about being a trail builder is that people think nothing of you walking around with an axe and a shovel.


I actually had a cop look into the front seat of my van (with blacked out windows) where I had a machete and a hatchet ON the front passenger seat and some rope & gloves on the floor beside it.

He asked if I was building bike trails. He recognized the Dakine logo on the gloves.

I love Vancouver Island.

Spud, wait till they start telling you what you should do to fix up the trail. You'll appreciate the ones that just ignore you.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Trail Ninja said:


> Spud, wait till they start telling you what you should do to fix up the trail. You'll appreciate the ones that just ignore you.


I try to maintain a level attitude. If you talk to people, you find a lot of them think you are getting paid. Or that the enormous global bike business with the local headquarters contributes time and money. Most think that state trail fees go to support single track trails. Hahahahaha, are you from another planet?

The park I build in is extremely rocky. Some people inside my own club think I try to make the trails more difficult than necessary. I do take advantage of large rocks to build optional stunts, but that's kind of the point, isn't it? Making a stream crossing in a rocky stream bed is a balance between making something durable and something rideable.

At least the people who try to tell you what to do have an inkling that there is some thought that goes into trail design. I've done everything short of getting down on my knees and beg for input. I get very little beyond, "The trails are great" or, "I like to race and your trails are too hard." It's difficult for me to understand, but most riders don't think about trail layout in a way that is of any use to me.

The worst of it is when people tell me I'm doing great work and inside I'm thinking "I'd trade this for grudging acceptance and an hour of your time at a work day." But I have to squash that and concentrate on reinforcing the positive message. If I start taking the attitude that what's important is how people treat me, then it's time to move on. My goal is to get more miles of quality trail built, and it's going to take a thousand acts of gentle persuasion to get there. Letting resentment take over is a recipe for disaster.

Walt


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

These forums are the best place to rant about things like this. You get a sympathetic ear and don't ruffle too many feathers. 

More often than not, riders don't know what they want. When you ride a great trail it's sometimes hard to define what was so great about it. Sure, you can pick out a good feature but you don't want that on another trail. It's already been done.

I build for me (easy but fun) and one other rider (bet you can't ride this). I find that very satisfying. I'd also rather have people ignore me or not be there at all. I'm not very fond of people anyway and if I do talk to them, I'm likely to insult them. I do most of my work on weekdays and in bad weather.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I always tell my High School racers*

1) that we must lead with courtesy and warmth as we share the trails.
2) you never know what the headspace of another trail user is so don't take things personally.

Thanks for the trailwork, Spud.


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## Spud 395 (Feb 5, 2008)

That's a great response to a somewhat irational rant guy's, thanks for that 

I'm just blowing off steam, dont mind me.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

It's just the usual mtbr lovefest spud...we want you to be a happy trailbuilder.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Spud 395 said:


> That's a great response to a somewhat irational rant guy's, thanks for that
> 
> I'm just blowing off steam, dont mind me.


That's what we're here for. Keep up the good work, take pride, have fun.

Walt


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## raptorm79 (Apr 17, 2009)

MOJO K said:


> Either he's got too much Ipod going, or he just wanted you to know how intense and focused he is. K.


hahaha however even if I have too much Ipod going I make it evident to atleast nod if I'm biking If I'm in the parking lot then I'll make sure I say hello


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## verdyhuffyatb (Apr 12, 2009)

*my little rant*

as some one who has been riding since the 80's yes mt. bikes I remember that we rode hiking trails and now ive seen the sport be broken down to sub cultures like xc,dh,freeride, urban, etc.
now i consider trail builders a uniqe sub group but ive had it with the fact that the most active trail builders in my area build what they call a "DH" trail well in my opinion (hard tail single speed rider)
the once tecnical rocky single track (n. arizona) is slowly one by one being sanitized for high speed I mean they remove all the rocks widen the trail by feet some times build smooth berms for every turn then add all kinds of stunts with no reguard to other trail users who now risk loosing that trail
when you get "down hill eyes" while trail building stop and think can a xc guy still climb this trail (im talking about working on public trails or social trails already in place not new trails) how will rain and use effect the new work you are making so i was just thinking that maybe that guy who ignored you is steaming mad at your "work" to a trail he has enjoyd for years the other thing is that over here trail work is clandestine and the guys who do the best work dont talk about it. or expect thank you's

and as for karma when i was little some one told me that if you do something good then tell someone about it that all the good karma you just got is taken away

so next time that happens try not to be so insecure maybe he just got fired from work or his mom died and couldn't talk that day


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

verdyhuffyatb said:


> ... so i was just thinking that maybe that guy who ignored you is steaming mad at your "work" to a trail he has enjoyd for years...
> 
> so next time that happens try not to be so insecure maybe he just got fired from work or his mom died and couldn't talk that day


Good point. Maybe he hated the trail and was just being nice by not saying anything.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

verdyhuffyatb said:


> the once tecnical rocky single track (n. arizona) is slowly one by one being sanitized for high speed I mean they remove all the rocks widen the trail by feet some times build smooth berms for every turn then add all kinds of stunts with no reguard to other trail users who now risk loosing that trail
> when you get "down hill eyes" while trail building stop and think can a xc guy still climb this trail (im talking about working on public trails or social trails already in place not new trails)


In the original post, the author said he was working on "dedicated DH and...sweet techy singletrack".

Sounds like he has your concerns covered, no?

Walt


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

verdyhuffyatb said:


> now i consider trail builders a uniqe sub group but ive had it with the fact that the most active trail builders in my area build what they call a "DH" trail well in my opinion (hard tail single speed rider)
> the once tecnical rocky single track (n. arizona) is slowly one by one being sanitized for high speed I mean they remove all the rocks widen the trail by feet some times build smooth berms for every turn then add all kinds of stunts with no reguard to other trail users who now risk loosing that trail


Huffy... I don't know if you've done this, but I'd suggest joining the local Trail Maintenance/Building Crew; or at the very least utilizing the IMBA trail solutions resources, be it the book or a Trail School, and then make your input heard so the builders know there's someone else out there. I like techy ST and I hate erosion, but I also love a good DH line as part of a total trail system (also have to deal with some pretty high volume areas where equestrian/stroller/kiddie/elderly needs have to be accomodated).

I run into hikers, trail runners, and bikers that have something to say all the time, they might be mad at us b/c we've closed a trail they like due to erosion, or made something a bit more techy and don't like the additional challenge, or (and I think this is the greater percent of the time) had no idea that there was a dedicated group of Trail Gnomes and go,"wow, that was you guys, I love that, thanks". We try to keep everyone in mind when we build, but sometimes you can't make an omlette that everyone likes.

The ones that complain know when we meet to do TM or build new, they know why we do what we do b/c we explain it to them if they ask, and yet they never come out to help or offer constructive input. A couple hours bent over a shovel/rake/Mcloed and people become a lot more concious of how much effort it takes to maintain and build, and repair a trail.

On the Karma side of things, its not looking for praise, its looking for feedback as much as anything.


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## verdyhuffyatb (Apr 12, 2009)

hey frier

Here in the south west we have very different type of terrain than back east or the north west
I used to live in oregon and back there I took a class on trail building I also got a permit for the use of a chain saw that alowed me to clear trails I even got paid to clear the cream puff race course near oakridge like ten years ago and it felt good inside that trail is sweet (100mile race)
I understand that I have no idea what I'm talking about for your trails but down here cows roam free
deer elk javalina etc have a "trail system" if you ride with 3 friends and they follow your line there will be a trail that magically apears in no time many people come to sedona and enjoy trails built with hands and feet.
My problem is that down here trail builders will work on trails that are in use and awesome already
maybe its a section they dab, or walk, or it slows down their DH flow what ever they come out with picks, shovels,rakes,lopers and baisicaly sanitize the trail. It is my opinion that our trails need to remain at the skill level they are now (something for everyone) riding a primitive trail in my opinion 
is so much better than a fast gravity sidewalk with berms 
it seems that some ride a trail then at the bottom say "that trail has potential" 
then go in with good intentions to just butcher it with picks and shovels 

my other thought on the introverted rider is maybe you were dressed like a star wars guy in your armor, full face,so cal. looking gear picks and shovels and had emo rock blaring from your car and thought that you were not worth talking to. 
do you have dread locks?


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## bucksaw87 (Jun 18, 2007)

i was riding up the trail, and some asshat with a pick and shovel tried to talk to me...

...waaaaaiiiit...


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## Spud 395 (Feb 5, 2008)

verdyhuffyatb said:


> my other thought on the introverted rider is maybe you were dressed like a star wars guy in your armor, full face,so cal. looking gear picks and shovels and had emo rock blaring from your car and thought that you were not worth talking to.
> do you have dread locks?


I feel I have to clarify my point a little verdy. I'm a guy in my early 40's and had 3 kids from 3-10 years of age with me. All I was looking for was a hello, Hi, whatever.

This particular hill had no trails except fireroad on it 10 years ago, it's a commercial forest.
Myself and 2 buddies started to build a few trails and ride them.
As the crowd got bigger this became an issue with the forest managment.
I negotiated a deal with them to allow mountain biking to continue. This however lead to us being charged to use the area as a club.
To raise the funds for this we started running races, and so more people came to know about the place and use it.
Now it's a quiet popular destination but still the original guys do all the work (ok so we did pick up afew other "workers" along the way, 2 to be exact) and we continue to pay for the use of the forest.

I surf quiet a bit and if you go to a break and dont respect the locals, well let's say your not going to be riding to many waves. Not to bring localism into mountainbiking but a bit of respect never does any harm.
I dont want praise or anything else for my efforts, I get all the payback I need when I hit the trails.

But this guy just plain pissed me off


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## sanjuro (Sep 29, 2004)

There was a classic up in Downieville: a crew was working Butcher Ranch, pulling off a tree which was blocking the trail.

A guy rolls up and says, "Hey, could you move, there is a whole bunch of riding by".

I think the entire crew dropped their tools on the spot.


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## AmoryPaz (May 2, 2009)

thats cool you surf too does ireland have a lame local-ism thing like california?
I do most of my surfing in mexico where surfers are way cool at least the ones i've met.
I just bought two used surf boards here for 50 bucks so now i have three a longboard, 6'4 rounded pin tail,6'0 squash tail both boards i just got are hand made from the 80's I wish i had the gas money to hit baja right now but i gota get as much riding here before its crazy hot in the day time
i have a trail here that is 4,800 feet in 5 miles not sure on the metric system but its a long bad ass down hill im 20 minutes to sedona and a half day to moab. what is the highest peak in ireland can you ride there to sea level?
as for my rant that dude was probably a jerk its a human thing not a cyclist thing. you know it seems that the minority of people are realy cool with the majority of cyclist being cool to other cyclist but i go through episodes all in my head at the start of a ride then as i get warmed up thinking seems to go away my breathing slows back down and I'm in my own heaven.
at those moments other people blend into nature like a obstacle to get past (in a nice way though)


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## Chips n Beer (Sep 14, 2008)

Long time ago I heard a saying similar to this. Every groups got at least one a-hole, and everybodyhas an a-hole. Make as things simple, learn what an a hole is so you know where to kick.

Love the comment about Downieville.


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## wasea04 (Apr 2, 2007)

Sometimes it's my own lazy friends that get me the most frusturated........"you could've built this here, or maybe that there, and on, and on, and on"..........one day I'm going to quit being so nice and tell him that if he doesn't like it to get his butt up the hill to show me how it's done  oh BTW, the guy's never helped once.

About as soon as I began mountain biking I also began maintaining and building trail. I love doing it, but that doesn't mean I don't mind a little thank you, personal respect, and especially respect for the trail. I think it's the whole "It's not mine so I don't care," phenomenom found in human nature that is the driving force behind what pisses "us" off the most. Until someone has had a chance to do some trailwork they just can't even fathom the deep emotional attachment that comes with the specific trail.......it sounds fishy but I'm being serious.

I think it's cool that builders do kind of have their own little culture too........the ultimate behind the scenes gig.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

wasea04 said:


> Sometimes it's my own lazy friends that get me the most frusturated........"you could've built this here, or maybe that there, and on, and on, and on"..........one day I'm going to quit being so nice and tell him that if he doesn't like it to get his butt up the hill to show me how it's done  oh BTW, the guy's never helped once.


My standard reply to this sort of critique is "People who show up for work days get input. Otherwise I am going to do this the way I think it should be done. Thanks anyhow."

You do realize that by discussing your work with this individual, you are inviting this sort of nonsense, right? It's generally a good idea to let people know what you are doing, because otherwise it's just magic that makes the trail appear. It's a fine line between promoting your work and inviting worthless comments. Learn to walk it.

Walt


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## jbogner (Jul 3, 2004)

Spud 395 said:


> This particular hill had no trails except fireroad on it 10 years ago, it's a commercial forest.
> I negotiated a deal with them to allow mountain biking to continue. This however lead to us being charged to use the area as a club.
> Now it's a quiet popular destination but still the original guys do all the work (ok so we did pick up afew other "workers" along the way, 2 to be exact) and we continue to pay for the use of the forest.


There's a club a few hours north of here that does something similar- they lease land from a commercial entity and the club pays for insurance for those who ride. You MUST be a paid member of the club (or a guest of a member) in order to ride- if you're not, you are trespassing.

In your case, you have every right to institute a paid membership program to help cover the effort that goes into trailbuilding, or even a "no dig, no ride" policy that requires trailwork from riders in exchange for the right to ride.

I would start, though, with signage at the trailhead letting users know the deal- that it's private land and that usage has been negotiated through and paid for by the club, that riding there is a privilege not a right, and that riders MUST volunteer to help build and maintain the trails in order to keep them going.


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## Portlawslim (Jun 8, 2009)

Hey Spud, Maybe if you offered him a Blaa he would have been more open and friendly..


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## Mtn. Biker123 (Sep 17, 2005)

Good words. Thanx!


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## Mtn. Biker123 (Sep 17, 2005)

Hey Paz are you in Flag?

I may be headed there this weekend for a three-day bike trip. You interested in showing a fellow builder some of that schweet DH?


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## TortugaTonta (Jun 14, 2004)

He was probably to high to carry a conversation, pot has that effect on kids. Thats why they called it "dope" when I was young, it made you reaaal dopey.


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## JGalt (Apr 5, 2009)

As someone who road bikes and does off-road, my own experience is that MTBers are generally the friendlier lot. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of spectacularly nice roadies, but I can't tell you how many times I've gotten unreturned waves from snooty roadies, many of who I could drop in a few seconds. I can't remember ever encountering someone like that off-road. I honestly think MTBing attracts a more down-to-earth lot with a much less pretentiousness.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

verdyhuffyatb said:


> as some one who has been riding since the 80's yes mt. bikes I remember that we rode hiking trails and now ive seen the sport be broken down to sub cultures like xc,dh,freeride, urban, etc.
> now i consider trail builders a uniqe sub group but ive had it with the fact that the most active trail builders in my area build what they call a "DH" trail well in my opinion (hard tail single speed rider)
> the once tecnical rocky single track (n. arizona) is slowly one by one being sanitized for high speed I mean they remove all the rocks widen the trail by feet some times build smooth berms for every turn then add all kinds of stunts with no reguard to other trail users who now risk loosing that trail
> when you get "down hill eyes" while trail building stop and think can a xc guy still climb this trail (im talking about working on public trails or social trails already in place not new trails) how will rain and use effect the new work you are making so i was just thinking that maybe that guy who ignored you is steaming mad at your "work" to a trail he has enjoyd for years the other thing is that over here trail work is clandestine and the guys who do the best work dont talk about it. or expect thank you's


Man, that was one long sentence.


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## buzzman63 (Sep 2, 2006)

Been lurking here a while-great comments. Been building trail for 20+ years, some bad (at first) and now some really great. Best part for me is "finding" that line, that flow to a new trail or a feature to use (rock, exposure) so yeah, I love trail building. Like a lot here-it has come down to 2 or three people who pick up the tools and go, but I've been lucky too, because we've had a few big work days with larger groups that crank out a lot of trail. I've had those knuckle heads too that see you bench cutting and don't say anything as they ride by, but most people that come to our trail (almost said "my") thank me if they know I've built them. It's nice to hear and they are appreciative. The Levis Mound Trail (In W.C. WIsco) has grown and part is just good comments riders make about the trail-keeps me motivated anyway to be out there. Time to ride.


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## Brunner (Apr 25, 2009)

its kinda funny i went riding with my wife a couple weeks ago on a local more xc oriented trail. we got pretty far back there and see about 50feet ahead of us a very large dirty bearded man carrying a shovel walking down the trail. it never occcured to me (or her) that he was probably working on the trail... we just stopped, exchanged glances, then made a quick turn around and peddled like hell the other way lol.


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## ColorVoyeur (Jun 13, 2009)

Sorry to scare you like that Brunner! I'm quite nice and have rarely bury bodies with that shovel


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## DirtyMtnBikeHer (Jul 30, 2009)

buzzman63 said:


> Been lurking here a while-great comments. Been building trail for 20+ years, some bad (at first) and now some really great. Best part for me is "finding" that line, that flow to a new trail or a feature to use (rock, exposure) so yeah, I love trail building. Like a lot here-it has come down to 2 or three people who pick up the tools and go, but I've been lucky too, because we've had a few big work days with larger groups that crank out a lot of trail. I've had those knuckle heads too that see you bench cutting and don't say anything as they ride by, but most people that come to our trail (almost said "my") thank me if they know I've built them. It's nice to hear and they are appreciative. The Levis Mound Trail (In W.C. WIsco) has grown and part is just good comments riders make about the trail-keeps me motivated anyway to be out there. Time to ride.


Glad to hear someone else who tends to have good experiences with non workers on the trail! I do a fair amount of trail work at Bent Creek here in NC and when we are working a large amount of riders say hi and thank us...it makes us, or at least me, feel rewarded. That's not why I do it but we are always confused when someone does ride through and gives a dirty look like we are in their way. I think most people around our area at least understand we are volunteers who put in our time and efforts to create some pretty great trails for everyone! So thanks to all you other builders too! :thumbsup:


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

I used to participate in work days on the local trails. Now, with kids, a wife, my job, finishing up a house... I'm lucky I have time to ride. I met the guy who cut my favorite local trail. I thanked him profusely and let him know how much I like his trail. I know I'll be able to participate in a work day after the house is complete. What I do now is never skid and mark up a trail. I try not to ride if there's mud and if I do come across a puddle, I try not to ride through it. If there's a fallen tree or some issue I can take care of with whatever I have on hand, I do it. 
Nothing makes me crazier than guys skidding down hills and tearing up the ground. One of my other favorite rides is completely eroded and now sucks.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

re puddles - it's better to ride THROUGH them than around them. Why? Going around them widens the trail. Going through them just gets your bike muddy.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

formica said:


> re puddles - it's better to ride THROUGH them than around them. Why? Going around them widens the trail. Going through them just gets your bike muddy.


You're right about that. If they're small enough, I hop over them. Big enough, I shoulder my bike and walk around them. My thing is, I believe if you ride through em, the bottom is soft, they get deeper and they stay around longer.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

If you make a WIDE detour then the line will go back as soon as it drys out because the flow has been sufficiently impeded.


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

I feel for ya OP. Myself and my buddy are the only ones who throw dirt at one of out local spots. Lots of people ride there, due to the fact it is a "recognized" spot by the county. No funds, no nothing, just acceptance for now... Anywhoo.. Nearly every day I am out there I rake, throw dirt, spray down and fix the lips before I ride. Somedays I just take my tools out there an work, work, work. I find it quite relaxing. The parts the burns my asz is when I am digging, building, ect.. there are ALWAYS guys just sitting there watching me. NEVER offering to lend a hand, carry a bucket of dirt, anything... Some of these little shitz even try to hit the stuff i am in the process of building. AHHHH it gets me so mad... But I take it to heart sometimes, and I should just really enjoy working with the dirt and making a killer feature. 

Some people just feel entitled in their life...


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## f3rg (Aug 29, 2007)

OP: Maybe the guy was an introvert and just prefers to be left alone. Could have just been lost in his own little world, and didn't want anyone to drag him out of it.


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