# Some good points



## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156452946693612&id=9758638611


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Turner is the fukkin man!
Good post jcd.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

It is a reasonable video 

But more the same if you don't like ebikes you like this video. 
You can find videos on youtube that support the opposite views, which supporters of ebikes will like.

But at least he is honest saying that ebikes will take over.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I think in 20 years we'll probably mostly be riding at bike-park type environments and bikes will be banned from more primitive trails that are now the norm. That's how it generally works in the EU/UK and IMO it's where we're headed here as well. E-bikes (which I agree will be super popular) will be a big factor there. 

-Walt


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## JackWare (Aug 8, 2016)

There are a lot of bike parks in the UK and the forestry commission has built a good range of trails at it's sites. In Scotland a lot of work is being done with land owners to open up the countryside to cyclists and bike are also allowed on bridleways but not footpaths across the country. I'm not aware of places where bikes are being actively banned from?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

It's hard to compare the US to Europe. We have a LOT more land and a lot less population density. We also have epidemic obesity and if we don't change the trajectory of that we're in big trouble. One interesting parallel I see to bike parks are the "surf parks" popping up all over. It becomes less about the overall experience and more about maximizing time under more controlled conditions.


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## ghood (Dec 26, 2011)

Walt said:


> I think in 20 years we'll probably mostly be riding at bike-park type environments and bikes will be banned from more primitive trails that are now the norm. That's how it generally works in the EU/UK and IMO it's where we're headed here as well. E-bikes (which I agree will be super popular) will be a big factor there.
> 
> -Walt


I hope not. One of the major draws of riding for me is getting out in the woods when/where few other people are present. Old trails with backcountry feel are my habitat. Singletrack hiking trails are best but gated forest service roads work. 
"Ebikes" aren't bikes in my opinion. They are motorcycles. Which is cool - there are shared use trails I dig. But it is a different sport.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Agreed, no remote single track for bikes, I'd hang up the mountain bike and run or hike.

Walt's prediction would be sad, but I doubt it'll happen, too many users want access and the government doesn't have the will or resources to limit access.

Just look at BLM, they can't even control dumping and car camping.



ghood said:


> I hope not. One of the major draws of riding for me is getting out in the woods when/where few other people are present. Old trails with backcountry feel are my habitat. Singletrack hiking trails are best but gated forest service roads work.
> "Ebikes" aren't bikes in my opinion. They are motorcycles. Which is cool - there are shared use trails I dig. But it is a different sport.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

jcd46 said:


> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156452946693612&id=9758638611


Turner thinks that human nature is to always prefer more and will therefore always prefer the e-bike. Turner's view of consumerism might be skewed somewhat by his customers, who are willing to pay more to own the best.

He says that the high-end bike business will be 'exterminated' by e-bikes. I doubt it; he's selling a luxury Veblen good; the higher the price the more desirable.

Turner uses the terms 'war' and 'religious left' and doesn't see a 'long term happy place' with regard to e-bikes and claims the middle ground when e-bikes are the true middle ground; half human powered and half electrical powered. I claim the middle ground with my e-bike and place him firmly in the 'religious left' category.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

If you are going to link to potato quality videos where the speaker ignores mountains of contrary evidence only to rely on his gut feeling, at least find someone who entertains us with "ebikes will give the kids autism and turn the frogs gay".

PS he might have made those points somewhere in the video but I couldn't watch more than a minute of that garbage.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

The video is a lot of whining about fear on multiple levels.

If he thinks the high end MTB market will be exterminated by ebikes, maybe he should start developing ebikes.

Mr. Turner, give Zinn a call:

Lennard Zinn ebike | ezinn Custom electric bicycle with pedal assist


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

honkinunit said:


> If he thinks the high end MTB market will be exterminated by ebikes, maybe he should start developing ebikes. [/url]


The high end MTB as well as the high end e-motorbike market is a niche within a niche and there will always be losers as the number of players compete in the space.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

I think where he is 100% correct, is where he talks about..."wanting more and hacking the motor".

It does happen, even in this forum people have mentioned upgrading the power. Some people buy ebike kits that are even more powerful. It is human nature to want more! Especially in MTBs where speed is usually a goal for some.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

He does make some good points. People will refuse to settle for 250 watts, etc. 

Anything to make it easier and faster to accommodate the masses who really have no interest in putting in the effort needed to improve one's self on a bike. 

There will always be exceptions that people may use to illustrate the need for ebikes (ex. my elderly parent can now bike), but that's not the norm. 

When I'm ready to give up I'll consider an ebike.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Some people ride for fun, some people ride for exercise, some ride for both.

If weight lifting was a fun thing to do like riding a bike, would we see assisted weight lifting?


Just a random thought...


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Compression onsies are the ebikes of the weightlifting world.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Cornfield said:


> Some people ride for fun, some people ride for exercise, some ride for both.
> 
> If weight lifting was a fun thing to do like riding a bike, would we see assisted weight lifting?
> 
> Just a random thought...


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Lol! Can't unsee that!


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Cornfield said:


> Some people ride for fun, some people ride for exercise, some ride for both.
> 
> If weight lifting was a fun thing to do like riding a bike, would we see assisted weight lifting?
> 
> Just a random thought...


It's high time that some PhD Psychologist does a research study on the e-bike love/hate.

Very interesting how the interview is done with a professional, that has dedicated their life to push everything to the limit, and succeeded, and then they project their type-A driven personality onto wanting to ride faster on an e-bike if they had one. No mention about having fun. No mention about exploring dirt/gravel roads and side trails at one's own pace. Just "E-bikers will push everything to the limit, because I personally push everything to the limit, and everyone should be like me, because I'm a narcissist". That's the logic. Does he even understand that 500+ watts with standard/voluminous tires can't be used in loose trail conditions? Does he understand that a run of the mill dirt bike will blow away a $7000 e-bike in rough, steep terrain?

I just did an e-bike ride up on a 600-ft plateau yesterday, short 7-mile loop. Two dirt bikers were in the same area, they had to climb the same hills, ride through the same rocky dirt roads. I heard them zipping around all over the place, every time I heard them they were in a different area, they probably did 25 miles in the same time I did 7 miles. Ramping up the motor watts to 2500 will not close the gap, it will just result in either tire spinning or a bad crash.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Crankout said:


> He does make some good points. People will refuse to settle for 250 watts, etc.
> 
> Anything to make it easier and faster to accommodate the masses who really have no interest in putting in the effort needed to improve one's self on a bike.
> 
> ...


"The most common reason among our participants for purchasing an e-bike was a personal sense of decline in physical ability often bought about by a health condition. Those who used a conventional bicycle for most of their journeys prior to purchasing an e-bike regarded e-biking as a solution to maintaining their cycling."

 survey of UK and Neherlands users

I don't think anyone knows the demographics of electric mountain bike purchasers. I'm 61 years old and was riding my mountain bike and commuting until untreatable SI joint arthritis dropped my cycling to one commute day a week and no mountain biking. With the e-bike I'm commuting every day and riding to and from and on the trail about twice a week.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> That's the logic. Does he even understand that 500+ watts can't even be used in loose trail conditions? Does he understand that a run of the mill dirt bike will blow away a $7000 e-bike in rough, steep terrain?


That doesn't make sense, how many watts does a"run of the mill" dirt bike have? Like you said they seem to make pretty good use of them.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> That doesn't make sense, how many watts does a"run of the mill" dirt bike have? Like you said they seem to make pretty good use of them.


Don't expect it to make sense, it's RichLogic[SUP]®[/SUP]


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

hikerdave said:


> I don't think anyone knows the demographics of electric mountain bike purchasers. I'm 61 years old and was riding my mountain bike and commuting until untreatable SI joint arthritis dropped my cycling to one commute day a week and no mountain biking. With the e-bike I'm commuting every day and riding to and from and on the trail about twice a week.


And if only your demographic was buying and riding them there wouldn't be a debate. No countless threads of the same arguments ad nuseam. I doubt any sane person has an issue with your demographic riding them, to the contrary. However that doesn't reflect the reality of who is riding them or even reflect who the marketing is oriented towards.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

richj8990 said:


> Does he even understand that 500+ watts with standard/voluminous tires can't be used in loose trail conditions?


This makes no sense.

A properly configured 500+ watt e-bike can be used in loose conditions.

Of course your frankenheap with a front wheel drive motor is going to spin out on steeper loose trails - that's because it's a bad design for riding off-road.






etc.

etc.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> That doesn't make sense, how many watts does a"run of the mill" dirt bike have? Like you said they seem to make pretty good use of them.


I saw this so decided to look it up.

750 watts give roughly 1 mechanical horsepower
250 watts give roughly .335 mechanical horsepower

125cc gives roughly 33 horse power
50cc gives roughly 4.2 hose power

The short answer is about 14 to 17cc = 1 hp

So as you can see a ebike is no where near the power of a motorcycle or typical moped engine.

https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/watt-to-hp.html
https://www.simetric.co.uk/si_cc2hp.htm


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> So as you can see a ebike is no where near the power of a motorcycle or typical moped engine.


so as you can see what you just wrote there has nothing whatsoever to do with my previous post.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> so as you can see what you just wrote there has nothing whatsoever to do with my previous post.


Really?? I answered a thought or question you posted of:

"That doesn't make sense, how many watts does a"run of the mill" dirt bike have? Like you said they seem to make pretty good use of them."

Which reads as if you are looking for an equivalence calculation. Is that not what you were looking for?


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> Really?? I answered a thought or question you posted of:
> 
> "That doesn't make sense, how many watts does a"run of the mill" dirt bike have? Like you said they seem to make pretty good use of them."
> 
> Which reads as if you are looking for an equivalence calculation. Is that not what you were looking for?


(written in crayon)

Rich claims that 500+ watt ebikes with wide tires can't be used in loose conditions.

J.B. Weld accurately points out that the dirt bikes with much more watts/hp manage just fine

KenPsz Completely misses the point.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Does it really matter? There is NO question an ebike is much faster, I've seen it live on the trails.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

og-mtb said:


> (written in crayon)
> 
> Rich claims that 500+ watt ebikes with wide tires can't be used in loose conditions.
> 
> ...


I get you want to back J.B. so that's cool but that was not the context I got from Rich's post. But then again I am not looking to equate ebikes to motorcycles, so that explains why I did not "get" what J.B. was implying.

I will give you this a very creative comment towards me, you're so cute! :thumbsup:

Wait you want to give me grief for not following the "obvious" statement that a system with much more hp can get up a loose area where a weak one cannot? LOL!!!!

Oh my the desperation of those that hate.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

jcd46 said:


> Does it really matter? There is NO question an ebike is much faster, I've seen it live on the trails.


Faster than who and on what part of the trail?

Downhill I doubt it.
Uphill who cares but those with a fragile ego
On the flats maybe, since I have seen packs of people going at over 20mph with no motor.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> I get you want to back J.B.


You have a big problem with making irrational assumptions.

My post had nothing to do with "wanting to back J.B."

It had everything to do with being factual (which is something that you continually, and repeatedly, struggle with).


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

og-mtb said:


> You have a big problem with making irrational assumptions.
> 
> My post had nothing to do with "wanting to back J.B."
> 
> It had everything to do with being factual (which is something that you continually, and repeatedly, struggle with).


Sure reads that way, but you run with what ever you want.

I listed why the "obvious" statement by J.B. was not obvious, you double down with some childish insults.

I get it the desperate hate ebike folks really have little left but insults.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

jcd46 said:


> Does it really matter? There is NO question an ebike is much faster, I've seen it live on the trails.


You opened up a can of worms, lol! Get ready to argue.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> I get you want to back J.B. so that's cool but that was not the context I got from Rich's post. But then again I am not looking to equate ebikes to motorcycles, so that explains why I did not "get" what J.B. was implying.
> 
> I will give you this a very creative comment towards me, you're so cute! :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


You seem to be the only one that sees Rich's post in that context.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> I get you want to back J.B. so that's cool but that was not the context I got from Rich's post. But then again I am not looking to equate ebikes to motorcycles, so that explains why I did not "get" what J.B. was implying.
> 
> I will give you this a very creative comment towards me, you're so cute! :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Ken, og-mtb got it right and I suspect most everyone else did too . I didn't (and never have) equated an ebike to a standard motorcycle, but I have said that an electric bike is a motorbike (because it is)

Can you really not see the difference?


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)




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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> Faster than who and on what part of the trail?
> 
> Downhill I doubt it.
> Uphill who cares but those with a fragile ego
> On the flats maybe, since I have seen packs of people going at over 20mph with no motor.


It has nothing to do w/ego, I'm slow no matter what like, super slow. But when you see a guy go up 2200' of climbing in 1/2 the time almost everyone else pedaling a bike, its twice as easy to do.



Cornfield said:


> You opened up a can of worms, lol! Get ready to argue.


Yeah, too late. LOL


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> Faster than who and on what part of the trail?


The same rider is capable of going faster on an ebike than they could on a bicycle, generally significantly faster. That's just reality.

Who has the fragile ego?


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

This is the trail, mind you it took me a while to climb up, but that's ok it was a food drive ride, and we were just having fun our on a beautiful day, and I don't care what people ride, but the point is, you can do this MUCH faster on an e-bike.

*sorry I didn't have my glasses on, so I f-typo'd the ride title. 

https://www.relive.cc/view/2009092924


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

jcd46 said:


> Yeah, too late. LOL


I've started typing to explain how I feel about ebikes quite a few times, but end up realizing I have better things to do and just walk away. In the end I'm generally ok with them where they're allowed, but don't want them where motorized vehicles have previously been prohibited, unless it's a directional mtb trail with good sight lines, etc.

I see it as another form of recreation, and if it makes you happy then go for it! Just be responsible.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> I get it the desperate hate ebike folks really have little left but insults.


No, you're wrong again. You don't "get it."

Once again you're making an irrational assumption that I "hate ebikes" just because I am pointing out facts about what you have posted.

It's quite sad while at the same time being quite telling.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

life behind bars said:


> You seem to be the only one that sees Rich's post in that context.


He is the only one. And now that he's been called out, he'll likely ignore it. Seems to be his MO.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

jcd46 said:


> It has nothing to do w/ego, I'm slow no matter what like, super slow. But when you see a guy go up 2200' of climbing in 1/2 the time almost everyone else pedaling a bike, its twice as easy to do.
> 
> Yeah, too late. LOL


Playing around with a cycling calculator. A fit rider with 200 watts available (me 20 years ago at age 40) would climb an 8 percent grade at 6mph unassisted or 14mph with 500 watts of assist. A heavier unfit rider such as myself now with 100 watts available at 3x assist wouldn't get full motor power and would climb at 9 mph with 400 watts available. Without the assist, I would be climbing that grade at 2.2 mph (walking, or riding with a little extra effort).

Best power I've ever made, at age 22, calculated from an hour long hill climb, is probably 313 watts. So yes, heavy 62 year old me on my heavy e-bike would be about equal to lightweight 22 year old me.

22 year old me on an e-bike would have 800 watts available and could easily climb that 8 percent grade at the cutoff speed of 20 mph and would be hell on wheels except that back then I was a purist who refused to own a car and absolutely would have had nothing to do with any sort of motor vehicle.

Times change.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Learned that Turner will generalize and stereotype when pressed. 

There's a difference between modifying things to be better for a certain purpose, and modifying things to be bigger/stronger for the sake of being bigger/stronger, as if it were style statement. The "bigger/stronger motor is better" argument is subjective and up for argument; already seeing claims that too much power that is difficult to control, isn't a good thing.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

ninjichor said:


> Learned that Turner will generalize and stereotype when pressed.
> 
> There's a difference between modifying things to be better for a certain purpose, and modifying things to be bigger/stronger for the sake of being bigger/stronger, as if it were style statement. The "bigger/stronger motor is better" argument is subjective and up for argument; already seeing claims that too much power that is difficult to control, isn't a good thing.


Turner will likely produce an e-bike to survive economically and his followers will come up with a thousand reasons why it's better than the Pivot Shuttle.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

This thread is going no where good.

/thread


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