# Possible to 'glue' add-on cable stops to frame?



## Sometimes (Jun 21, 2009)

I've got a SS frame with only a single set of cable stops -- for the rear disc brake. I'd like to convert it to an IGH (Internally Geared Hub) so I need additional cable stops. Would it be possible to epoxy cable stops onto a frame? I had in mind a 2-part epoxy readily available in stores or even the less available body panel adhesive used in automotive body repair work. Thanks in advance.


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## nogod (May 30, 2009)

you would need to remove the paint first and sand the metal. maybe JB weld would work. but i think to glue them on you need to make new ones or braze them onto a piece of some sort of metal. to give more area for adhesion. or you could clamp em on. if you made new ones or brazed em like i said before.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

I can't see glue being more than a temporary solution.
First, where would you get the cable stops? If your frame is steel or aluminum, have someone tack weld them on for you. 
Could you do without the stops and run your cable in housing the whole way? Use Electrical ties to secure the housing?


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## nogod (May 30, 2009)

smilinsteve said:


> I can't see glue being more than a temporary solution.
> First, where would you get the cable stops? If your frame is steel or aluminum, have someone tack weld them on for you.
> Could you do without the stops and run your cable in housing the whole way? Use Electrical ties to secure the housing?


 that would just create weak points. i think bonding or clamping would be better.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

does noone make a little bolt/clamp/whatever on converter for turning one cable stop/guide into two?


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Sometimes said:


> I've got a SS frame with only a single set of cable stops -- for the rear disc brake. I'd like to convert it to an IGH (Internally Geared Hub) so I need additional cable stops. Would it be possible to epoxy cable stops onto a frame? I had in mind a 2-part epoxy readily available in stores or even the less available body panel adhesive used in automotive body repair work. Thanks in advance.


You do not need stops for an IG hub, just guides. I would just tape the full length housing in place.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

There is a company (problem solvers, I think) that makes bolt on "clamp style" stops. The problem is though that most tubes on newer bikes aren't round anymore.


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

Glue them since there really isn't any stress on the boss itself. All the stresses are on the housing itself. All the boss has to do is support the weight of the housing. I did something like this back in the '90s when I wanted to run an IGH on an aluminum frame. Sure brazing would be cleaner and all that, but epoxy will work fine. I believe I used JB Weld and closed loop TT housing guides.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Here is exactly what you need!
Clamp on housing stop:

http://www.beyondbikes.com/itemMatrix.asp?GroupCode=PG-13266&eq=&MatrixType=1&Av=

Description:

Problem Solvers Backstop Frame-mounted clamp-on housing stop for linear pull brakes. *Can also be used when installing internal hubs on dedicated single speed frames. *Updated in 07 to include two cable stops for more versitility.


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

themanmonkey said:


> Glue them since there really isn't any stress on the boss itself. All the stresses are on the housing itself. All the boss has to do is support the weight of the housing.


If the cable housing is perfectly straight, than this is true. However, if there are any curves in the cable housing, than there is indeed a very significant load on the housing stops. A simple way to prove it is to take an existing housing out of the stop and try to see how well shifting (or braking) works. It might work a little, but it won't work well.

The reason for this is as tension is applied to the cable inside the housing, it tries to straighten out the housing (remember, the shortest distance between two points is straight line). Fixing the ends of the housing makes all "straightening" forces internal and maintains the tension in the cable. I guess that year as a brake cable engineer in detroit finally paid off..... :thumbsup:


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

*RoyDean* that's all nice in theory, but have you actually done it? I've done it and it worked fine. Even the highest tension from a Nexus hub didn't pull anything loose and the nexus has the hardest pull of any IGH I've ever played with. I spent many years working at the shop that did these kinds of things in Seattle. Now a days you need to talk to Val or Aaron. Your year as a brake cable engineer doesn't really apply to shift cables on a bicycle as the forces involved are magnitudes smaller.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

I was thinking RoyDean was right on the money, as clearly there are significant forces on your cable stop. Take your housing out of the stop and hold it as you squeeze your brake for example. 
To resist that, you must have used some pretty good glue. Even so, eventually that stop would get banged by something or hit when you lay your bike down, and pop off. But maybe that epoxy is tougher than I thought.


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## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

There is a huge difference between a housing stop that works to interrupt the cable housing (i.e. as is common w/ road bike rear brakes) and a cable guide that simply holds a full length cable in place, especially if shift cable is involved. 

SIS shift cables work by transmitting cable position and not tension as their main function. Yes, there is some residual tension on a shift cable but as themanmonkey pointed out, it is a tiny, tiny fraction of the tension forces generated in a brake cable.


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## nogod (May 30, 2009)

lol this is a little ghetto but, thought i would share anyways, because i found the simple idea funny.

braze the stops onto hose clamps. they can form around odd shaped tubing.


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## AlexJK (May 2, 2009)

jb weld will work fine... i've used it for much more demanding tasks before


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

I can't believe that with all the bike stuff and other technologies out there, that no one's found an adhesive that really works


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

smilinsteve said:


> I was thinking RoyDean was right on the money, as clearly there are significant forces on your cable stop. Take your housing out of the stop and hold it as you squeeze your brake for example.
> To resist that, you must have used some pretty good glue. Even so, eventually that stop would get banged by something or hit when you lay your bike down, and pop off. But maybe that epoxy is tougher than I thought.


What forces are you talking about WE"RE NOT TALKING ABOUT BRAKES, or cable housing stops . We're talking about an IGH (internally geared hub) where the stresses from one end of the cable to the other are at most a couple of pounds. Distribute that stress over the 6' of housing with 90% of those stresses at the end points and you have almost no stress at the housing supports.

Also there are plenty of strong glue out there used to hold things to cars and airplanes and other high stress applications. In this case JB Weld will be fine though. If you doubt any of this look at the stick-on housing guides used to run the disc brake housing line.


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

Whoa, there, cowboy. I'm talking about STOPS, not guides (reread my post, and the OP's). I agree, that a cable housing guide sees VERY LITTLE load. However, when cable STOPS are used with cable housings that are curved, the resultant force on the cable stops can be as high as 100% of the tension in the cable.

So sure, if using cable stops with a cable tension of just a couple of pounds, the loading on the stops is will be low, but for brake or standard derailleur shifting, thats simply not the case. I realize that may not be the case for the OP, as he wants to us an IG hub, but he has to be sure that his cable STOP solution is capable of handling 100% of the pull tension of the cable (to be sure that there will be no failures). That's all I'm getting at.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

The best solution is still the clamp-on stop in post #9.


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

I see where you're coming from. Most folks have no idea about the difference between stops and guides and every IGH is designed for a full run of housing. This is the kind of thing I have to explain multiple times to customers regularly. That's where I'm coming from. 

That said for an IGH using stops would be fine too. Most of the SRAM and Sturmey hubs have at most 1 lb. or pressure at high tension and the Shimano hubs might be as high as 5 lbs., but I'd guess closer to 3. Even under load (which IGHs don't really do very well) it's maybe 15-20% higher. Even Gorilla glue should hold up to those pressures using stops.

Again, if we were talking about brakes and stops I'd say no way, but we're not. Any mention about brakes is an apples to oranges comparison. Of course in the end the OP should just try it with glue. If the stops pull off then there is the proof in the proverbial pudding. Lots of folks talk about things they want to do, but few actually get beyond the thinking to the doing stage. We all can sit here and theorize, but until someone actually does something we won't really know.


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

smilinsteve said:


> The best solution is still the clamp-on stop in post #9.


Except it only comes in very limited sizes. There are other problems with these things too, but that's fodder for a different thread.

The best solution if they really want guides or stops is to have some brazed or welded or riveted on.


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

Actually hold on a minute I just had a thought. I've worked on thousands of CF frames with glued on stops over the years with very few problems. I have seen a few pop off over the years, but it's quite rare. I think that would be the proof in the pudding I was talking about. It all comes down to finding the right glue.

(sorry to monopolize the thread)


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

That's what I was sayin' earlier..there has to be an epoxy that would work some where.


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## rocwandrer (Oct 19, 2008)

toddre said:


> That's what I was sayin' earlier..there has to be an epoxy that would work some where.


pliogrip


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## nogod (May 30, 2009)

anyway to ask em what glue they used?


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

smilinsteve said:


> The best solution is still the clamp-on stop in post #9.


No, not at all, because IG hubs _do not need frame mounted housing stops at all._ The housing runs full length from the shifter to the stop on the hub itself.

Using that clamp on stop only complicates an otherwise simple setup.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

themanmonkey said:


> Actually hold on a minute I just had a thought. I've worked on thousands of CF frames with glued on stops over the years with very few problems. I have seen a few pop off over the years, but it's quite rare. I think that would be the proof in the pudding I was talking about. It all comes down to finding the right glue.
> 
> (sorry to monopolize the thread)


Bonding carbon is a bit different than metals. They use to bond stops on aluminum frames but later rivets or welds became needed to keep them in place.

I am thinking I may just use Gorilla Glue to attach housing directly to the frame...


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## AlexJK (May 2, 2009)

he he he, if butyl window adhesive cured hard then it would be perfect, that **** is WAY stronger than anything i've ever used.


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

I don't know.. my aluminum lefty upper is bonded to the aluminum crowns..... and I would say that that load is anything but "low"


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

RoyDean said:


> I don't know.. my aluminum lefty upper is bonded to the aluminum crowns..... and I would say that that load is anything but "low"


Hardly the same thing.


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

shiggy said:


> Bonding carbon is a bit different than metals. They use to bond stops on aluminum frames but later rivets or welds became needed to keep them in place.


I don't think so *Shig* it's all a mater of what the glue is. I know a few Boeing engineer types that glue all kinds of things to their bikes. The couple companies I ever knew that switched from glue to rivets did so because it was cheaper and faster. The problem was mostly cure times. When I was at Cannondale last winter they "brazed" them because it was the best balance of speed and cost. Here's a pic of the brazing lineup.


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## Sometimes (Jun 21, 2009)

Sheesh! Thanks for all the replies & suggestions!

I had completely forgot about my post & just 'accidentally' came across it. Yeah ... I'm getting senile .

I've pretty much thought of all the ideas everyone has so far suggested but for one reason or another ruled them out (including cable stops attached to hose clamps -- believe it or not) & settled on attempting gluing. And I think I'll still try that. Just have to find the right adhesive. Might take a bit of experimentation but I think I can make it work. If not ... I might try brazing them on. The frame isn't exactly known for durability to begin with which is why I'm hesitant to use any solution that requires application of heat so that will be a last resort.

And yes, I do know the difference between a cable housing stop & guide.

I had the idea of attaching a cable stop to the downtube (DT) & another one to the under side of the drive side chainstay (CS) & cable guide to the under side of the bottom bracket so I could run cable from the DT to the CS for an Alfine IGH. I just don't like the idea of running all that housing. Personal taste.

But ... as it turns out, I haven't gotten around to building my Alfine or Nexus wheels & I just acquired a used Rohloff 29er wheel so I'll be using that instead initially. For the Rohloff IGH I'll just piggyback off the rear disc cable housing. Sure, it will look hokey but all I'm trying to do, at least initially, is to evaluate it to see if it's worth keeping.

So ... for now ... problem solved.

Thanks for all the responses.


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

shiggy said:


> Hardly the same thing.


Oh. I see. Bonding aluminum to aluminum will obviously work for a fork, but not for a cable stop. What was I thinking.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

RoyDean said:


> Oh. I see. Bonding aluminum to aluminum will obviously work for a fork, but not for a cable stop. What was I thinking.


Well it really isn't the same thing because the fork tube in the crown sees mostly compressive forces that are resisted by the crown socket, not just the glue. With a cable stop it is shear stress on the glue metal interface alone.....

I'm curious if the OP ever did his glue job and how it worked out?


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

I didn't say it was the same. Just because the loading is different, doesn't mean you should automatically throw the idea into the dustbin... It may be that the shear stress equates to only a few psi... I know some industrial adhesives can handle thousands of psi in shear...


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

OK, folks before taking the thread any further please read this thread written by folks that aren't speculating, but actually doing a similar experiment testing for shear with aluminum to aluminum adhesive bonding.

What I get from this is that what the OP wants to do is easily possible, but that it may, or may not, be a permanent bond. It seems to mostly come down to the preparation of the area and the adhesive used.

Also I still see brazing the bosses as the best way and here's a video about it.


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

3M 5200 marine adhesive sealant would work. No need to scuff paint. Dry time is one week!


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## 274898 (Nov 29, 2005)

Sometimes said:


> I've got a SS frame with only a single set of cable stops -- for the rear disc brake. I'd like to convert it to an IGH (Internally Geared Hub) so I need additional cable stops. Would it be possible to epoxy cable stops onto a frame? I had in mind a 2-part epoxy readily available in stores or even the less available body panel adhesive used in automotive body repair work. Thanks in advance.


what cable stops are you talking about on ss? the ones on the downtube or the ones on top tube?

if the cable is going basically the same route as the brake cable, just fully house the cable like a hydraulic and zip tie it to brake cable. but, if you have to have a cable stop for the hub then there may be some cable stops on ebay that can bolt to your seat stay or chain stay. i know they have cable stops to bolt to you seat tube for front derailleurs.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/CABLE-GUIDE-FOR-RD-TOP-TUBE.html

Just use a rivit on cable guide. Nova has a bunch of differant rivit on "braze ons" in the aluminum small parts section.

Tim


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

BETAMATE™ Structural Adhesive. This line of adhesives are used to hold car door hinges, panels, etc together. Should be able to get it from a auto supply.


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