# Lightest, stiffest most rigid steel frame ever



## digilux (Mar 23, 2007)

Simple question; what is the Top-Gun steel frame of all time?

For me it would be the ProFRO, it's light responsive ultra stiff and super rough. And regarding looks there are no one like it

So tell us about what you consider the best and lightest steel rig


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

The last thing I would call any Yeti is 'light'. Or strong actually. Definitely stiff though. And they ride pretty ok if you know how to manhandle a bike. I think they're a good looking bike too. Crude, but cool.


I have a bike I consider to be the best bike for me....but like tires, saddles, and grips...everyone is going to feel differently.


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## digilux (Mar 23, 2007)

Rumpfy said:


> The last thing I would call any Yeti is 'light'. Or strong actually. Definitely stiff though. And they ride pretty ok if you know how to manhandle a bike. I think they're a good looking bike too. Crude, but cool.
> 
> I have a bike I consider to be the best bike for me....but like tires, saddles, and grips...everyone is going to feel differently.


I guess you manage to throw at least two or three brand/models out of you sleeve...


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## kb11 (Mar 29, 2004)

These would be on my lightweight list but not the stiffest. I'd say my P bike is certainly rigid and handles like no other. The Bonty scares the hell out of me at speed :eekster: 
G, notice both have pedals :smilewinkgrin:


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## digilux (Mar 23, 2007)

kb11 said:


> ...G, notice both have pedals :smilewinkgrin:


:thumbsup: so you are one of us that actually use the garage queens


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Any vintage steel frame will weigh more than current frames made w/ super steels. Having said that, a Yo Eddy is stiff and light. Santana or Serotta made w/ oversized columbus is mighty stiff. 
I don't like stiff frames. i prefer the ones that flex a bit in the right places.


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## digilux (Mar 23, 2007)

colker1 said:


> Any vintage steel frame will weigh more than current frames made w/ super steels. Having said that, a Yo Eddy is stiff and light. Santana or Serotta made w/ oversized columbus is mighty stiff.
> I don't like stiff frames. i prefer the ones that flex a bit in the right places.


I haven't tried the newer cromo frames, but I guess progression hav had its turn in that departmen also over the years. The Columbus Max Serottas looks great and I have read great things about them, but I havent tested any... yet. I did have a Scott Pro Raceing made with oval Columbus Max tubing - but probably not the same feel as the Serotta...?.


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## kb11 (Mar 29, 2004)

And raced occasionally :shocked: My other P23, Keysville 06 I think


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

digilux said:


> I haven't tried the newer cromo frames, but I guess progression hav had its turn in that departmen also over the years. The Columbus Max Serottas looks great and I have read great things about them, but I havent tested any... yet. I did have a Scott Pro Raceing made with oval Columbus Max tubing - but probably not the same feel as the Serotta...?.


The chainstays on the Serottas were MASSIVE. Top and downtube were oversized, ovalized. On top of that, geometry was short and steep.


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## digilux (Mar 23, 2007)

colker1 said:


> ...On top of that, geometry was short and steep.


Fast cornering and handling in the tricky sections iow...


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## digilux (Mar 23, 2007)

kb11 said:


> And raced occasionally :shocked: My other P23, Keysville 06 I think


Sharp looking there kb11 :thumbsup:


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

If I am going to ride a steel bike, it will be this one


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

kb...always a treat to see your salmon P bike...one of my all time favorites.
Looks even better in action.



Steve


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## Shogun700 (Jun 15, 2009)

colker1 said:


> The chainstays on the Serottas were MASSIVE. Top and downtube were oversized, ovalized. On top of that, geometry was short and steep.


The Santana Moda shares these characteristics as well. Stiffest/lightest? I have no idea. This one is a bullet, stiff but not harsh.










Some info on Columbus Max Nivacrom below. I have other articles scanned somewhere, I'll see if I can come up with them.


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## digilux (Mar 23, 2007)

bushpig said:


> If I am going to ride a steel bike, it will be this one


But without the seat tag I guess ;-)

PS did you find the owner of that stolen old red one?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

I am riding this one. It's light... not stiff, thank you.


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

I just realized that I've never ridden a steel mountain bike (or road bike for that matter). Aluminum, Al/chromo composite, Ti, Ti/carbon composite, all carbon ... but never steel. 

I do have a Stumpy frame I might have to build up now, but I'm drawn to he P-23 and the Bontrager.

BTW, what makes that Bontrager "scary"? 

Thanks and stay well


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

CCMDoc said:


> I just realized that I've never ridden a steel mountain bike (or road bike for that matter). Aluminum, Al/chromo composite, Ti, Ti/carbon composite, all carbon ... but never steel.
> 
> I do have a Stumpy frame I might have to build up now, but I'm drawn to he P-23 and the Bontrager.
> 
> ...


Place an Ibis mojo and a Fat Chance wicked on your short list.


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

colker1 said:


> Place an Ibis mojo and a Fat Chance wicked on your short list.


:thumbsup:

Will do!


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

colker1 said:


> I am riding this one. It's light... not stiff, thank you.


Very nice!, as are the others...


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## kb11 (Mar 29, 2004)

CCMDoc said:


> BTW, what makes that Bontrager "scary"?


The Bonty is probably my best climber and in the tight stuff it shines. But on fast downhills, at speed, the the quick steering requires full attention. It could be this '93/'94 frame was suspension corrected but it came with the Bonty forks. That would account for the quick handling. The plan is to swap most of the parts to a '90 Race Lite frame I acquired


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## Veloculture (Dec 18, 2005)

The last thing I want in a frame is stiff. Flex all the way baby. I've hated every single stiff frame I've ever ridden.


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## rigidftw (Mar 21, 2010)

Veloculture said:


> The last thing I want in a frame is stiff. Flex all the way baby. I've hated every single stiff frame I've ever ridden.


true, partly. i tried a klein once, in a farm yard, on big concrete slabs. the most uncomfortable ride ever. my mb-1 was just fine there.
the nicest riding frame for me is my 94 gt karakoram elite, or corrado. pretty light, frame should be around 4.2lbs, nice and stiff round the bottom bracket. and the rest is flexing pretty well. coming directly from a modern bike, like an on one, it feels almost like a softtail. seatpost and saddle contribute to that greatly, though.


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## babbalanja (Jan 20, 2008)

There were a handful of builders using True Temper Aermet tubes (sort of a precursor to S3) in the mid 90's to build frames that were exceptionally stiff and relatively light. Unfortunately the tubes were also prone to cracking so there aren't many around these days.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 26, 2006)

kb11 said:


> The Bonty scares the hell out of me at speed :eekster:


yeah, my Race used to scare the hell out of me at speed, too--great climber but puts your weight too far forward. Sold it and got this, which I would put up there for light/stiff, etc. for the era (1995). Moron tubing + Breezer dropouts = win. :thumbsup:


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

2000 Mojo.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Veloculture said:


> The last thing I want in a frame is stiff. Flex all the way baby. I've hated every single stiff frame I've ever ridden.


Agreed. I like some give. Especially if you're a finesse rider.



CCMDoc said:


> I just realized that I've never ridden a steel mountain bike (or road bike for that matter). Aluminum, Al/chromo composite, Ti, Ti/carbon composite, all carbon ... but never steel.
> 
> I do have a Stumpy frame I might have to build up now, but I'm drawn to he P-23 and the Bontrager.
> 
> BTW, what makes that Bontrager "scary"?


Oooh, you're missing out! Something about steel bikes just have soul. Like a classic car. The Stumpy will be ok, but if you can get over a P-23, I think thats one of the best representations of a competent steel bike. A quick, great all around handling bike. Bontragers, like KB said...scary at speed. A bit nervous I think and the front end dumps when you get air born. I found the same to be true of the Wicked (sorry Colker). Great climber, light...but pushed in the corners, not happy when the tires left the ground.



bushpig said:


> If I am going to ride a steel bike, it will be this one


My first choice as well.



kb11 said:


> The Bonty is probably my best climber and in the tight stuff it shines. But on fast downhills, at speed, the the quick steering requires full attention.


This.


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## Veloculture (Dec 18, 2005)

rigidftw said:


> true, partly. i tried a klein once, in a farm yard, on big concrete slabs. the most uncomfortable ride ever. my mb-1 was just fine there.
> the nicest riding frame for me is my 94 gt karakoram elite, or corrado. pretty light, frame should be around 4.2lbs, nice and stiff round the bottom bracket. and the rest is flexing pretty well. coming directly from a modern bike, like an on one, it feels almost like a softtail. seatpost and saddle contribute to that greatly, though.


It's the stiff bottom bracket that I can't stand. I'll never ride slower than when I'm on a bike with a stiff BB. Give me the flex. :thumbsup:


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Agreed. I like some give. Especially if you're a finesse rider.
> 
> Oooh, you're missing out! Something about steel bikes just have soul. Like a classic car. The Stumpy will be ok, but if you can get over a P-23, I think thats one of the best representations of a competent steel bike. A quick, great all around handling bike. Bontragers, like KB said...scary at speed. A bit nervous I think and the front end dumps when you get air born. I found the same to be true of the Wicked (sorry Colker). Great climber, light...but pushed in the corners, not happy when the tires left the ground.
> 
> This.


I always measured my bikes against a particular kind of trail i rode for years, right where i lived. It's woods but steep, slippery clay w/ lots of drops and very slow climbs where every sngle drop of traction is used. The wicked was nice in this environment; short top tube, slightly longer cstays and short front center. The longer cstays are great when dropping down nasty stuff. The bike holds balance at walking speeds. It's all good for those trails.


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

Well, I am in the process of trying to acquire a steel bike with a 72 degree head angle (similar in many ways to my Ti and Ti/carbon bikes) and have now started the search for a P bike or one of the others you gents have mentioned here. :thumbsup:


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## rigidftw (Mar 21, 2010)

Veloculture said:


> It's the stiff bottom bracket that I can't stand. I'll never ride slower than when I'm on a bike with a stiff BB. Give me the flex. :thumbsup:


weird...but if it works for you, so be it.


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

Rumpfy said:


> Oooh, you're missing out! Something about steel bikes just have soul. Like a classic car. The Stumpy will be ok, but if you can get over a P-23, I think thats one of the best representations of a competent steel bike. A quick, great all around handling bike. Bontragers, like KB said...scary at speed. A bit nervous I think and the front end dumps when you get air born. I found the same to be true of the Wicked (sorry Colker). Great climber, light...but pushed in the corners, not happy when the tires left the ground.


Well,
I've acquired my first steel bike - not one of those mentioned though they remain on my list.:thumbsup:

Not a particularly light model but a place to start.

Vetta 200 saddle and TangePrestige bars to be swapped in as well as proper thumbies and brake levers - all on the bench awaiting fitting.

On the lookout for a set of black ODI Mountaineer Mushroom grips ...

Hopefully it will come together this weekend

Then out for a ride


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

Yo Eddys were plenty stiff, much more than my original Monster (Wicked). I wanted one badly at the time, until I spent a lot of time riding a pals. 

I'd take one now is a second, but I prefer a "softer" steel ride.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

My old '91 Diamond Back Ascent was stiff and heavy in all the wrong ways. There is world of difference between low-end and high-end steel frames.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

My 96 Kona Explosif is the lightest steel frame I've ridden so far, though I would say it's more snappy than stiff. Nice responsive handling at all speeds while being stable enough that I can do pretty stupid things and get away without crashing. Stiffest I think would be the DeKerf Implant which is built for doing insanely stupid stuff. But it isn't exactly light.


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## longfinkillie (Jan 28, 2011)

CCMDoc said:


> Well,
> I've acquired my first steel bike - not one of those mentioned though they remain on my list.:thumbsup:
> 
> Not a particularly light model but a place to start.
> ...


That is my favorite bike in the universe (so far).


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## screamingbunny (Mar 24, 2004)

*my steel quiver*

Bare in mind I'm a 220+ pound man, so stiff is relative to me:

First up is my trusty 94' "Stoner" nothing describes this bike better than neutral, on everything. That being said, it is "the" bike I get on most often, everything just feels "right" the second my butt hits the seat. Vertically compliant, but torsionally the stiffest of the three.

Next up is my 94' Fat Chance Yo Eddy, this thang is "quick", accelerates and climbs like a raped ape on meth, lite? yes sub 22lbs, compliant enough to smooth out the decents. Vertically stiff but not Klein bad, torsionally a little twistier than the Stoner, I think mostly due to the compact frame and the stem.

Last but not least my 2000? Gunnar Rockhound (Green Hornet), just a fun dam bike, VERY short chainstays make it quick up things. A little too springy vertically but nothing crazy, torsionally the front end is a little noodley but I think most of that comes from a 5" travel fork twisting it, hope it doesn't come off unexpectantly.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Agreed*



Veloculture said:


> The last thing I want in a frame is stiff. Flex all the way baby. I've hated every single stiff frame I've ever ridden.


Why would you want a steel frame to be stiff? That's not why one buys a steel frame. My son has one of the Nashbar frames from around 5-6 years ago with a Reynolds 853 main triangle and these very, very cool looking shaped steel chain stays. It's so ridiculously stiff riding though, I think because of those stays mainly, that it feels almost like an aluminum frame and I'm over 200 lbs. My 19" model weighs 4.8 lbs. so definitely not as light as garden variety aluminum either. Like an aluminum frame though, if you run big enough tires at low pressures it's pretty cool riding.


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## Shogun700 (Jun 15, 2009)

Interesting read about this very subject, from a certain someone who has obviously been obsessing about it:

STIFFNESS


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## jerry68 (Aug 23, 2007)

tl1 said:


> Why would you want a steel frame to be stiff? .


This. I find myself riding my steel rigid (IRD Tempest) more and more often these days, and I am always surprised how compliant it is over the roots and rocks.


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## GonaSovereign (Sep 20, 2004)

babbalanja said:


> There were a handful of builders using True Temper Aermet tubes (sort of a precursor to S3) in the mid 90's to build frames that were exceptionally stiff and relatively light. Unfortunately the tubes were also prone to cracking so there aren't many around these days.


Aermet was produced by Carpenter, not True Temper. It was interesting stuff. IT was strong, but proved that flex (or elongation, I suppose) is good.

You can still buy it:
Carpenter Products - AerMet® 340 Alloy


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