# A year of e-biking: observations on fitness and bike handling skills



## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

This isn't meant to be one of those "e-bikes are better/worse because blah blah" threads, there are plenty of those if that's what you're after. It's just some interesting (and slightly surprising, to me) observations after a year of riding one.

I live at altitude in Lake Tahoe (6600'). While there are some XC-ish trails, most of the riding involves a long climb followed by a long descent. My favorite rides start at around 8000' and then drop 2000'+ with a fair bit of pedaling along the way. It's a pretty physically demanding place to ride, especially with the thinner air. Before my e-bike it was either shuttle if you could find some friends with another truck or slog it up the fire road and then back down on the singletrack. A good ride for me would be 10-15 miles with 2000' of climbing and I'd be ready for a beer.

I got my S-works Turbo Levo at the beginning of last May. Strava tells me I got 52 rides in on it until the snow started falling and it got put away for the winter. In that same time I got 17 rides in on my regular mountain bikes (not including the dirt jumps, which I don't think count). I feel that's a fairly good trial to see what differences there were.

I certainly rode more than I think I would have without the e-bike. Lots of quick before work or lunchtime rides that I simply wouldn't have had the time for. And I certainly didn't feel like I was just leaning on the crutch of the motor - I used the excellent BLevo app with the feature that lets you regulate the power output of the bike to try to keep the human power output constant. Most rides I'd set it at 175W (i.e. the app would attempt to make me put out 175W before it starts to take up the remaining power demands with the motor). It's not exact, I think it averages out over 4 seconds or something so it's still possible for the human to put out much more in short bursts, but it definitely takes the edge off. I chose that number to try to keep me nicely within a good range for aerobic exercise.

I really, really, really wanted to believe the train of thought that says you'll get just as good (or better!) exercise because you ride more, and also that you ride more in a power zone that's conducive to building fitness, but my fitness definitely suffered. Getting back on my regular MTBs, especially at the end of the season where I'd normally be at peak fitness I was definitely suffering more than normal. I'm willing to accept that maybe what happened was that I sacrificed some peak power ability for aerobic/endurance fitness, i.e. on the non e-bike throughout the year there's lots of places where I'd be forced to put out short bursts of 450+ watts, and that's effectively high intensity interval training, but with the e-bike that didn't happen nearly as much. But maybe my endurance got better. Hard to say, but what's certain is that for the type of riding I used to do on the non-ebikes I definitely suffered.

What's interesting is that my bike handling skills on the downhill technical stuff improved quite a bit. I've been riding for decades, I'm no spring chicken so I don't learn new things like I did when I was 18 and my skills have more or less reached a stable level with a lot of deliberate practice required to get better in any area. However, at the beginning of this year I smashed the derailleur off the Levo on a rock and I've been riding my regular MTBs for the last month or so while I get it repaired and rebuild the wheel (the derailleur got smashed into the wheel and took out half the spokes before I got stopped!). I've been smashing all of my personal PRs on all my favorite DH segments, by quite a bit, and it's only the beginning of the season when my skills are usually a bit rusty. It's not just speed, I notice I'm riding way smoother than I normally would and just feel much more comfortable and confident. I put it down to a year of riding a 50 lb pig of an e-bike that required a lot more deliberate weight shifts and dynamic body position to get it to do what I wanted, and suddenly now I'm back on a 30-lb enduro bike everything seems easy by comparison.

Anyone else notice anything similar?


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## bouncy_rig (Aug 22, 2007)

This is a great discussion. 
as a rider on the older side of 50 and having to reduce my time in the saddle due to both skills and fitness. I am looking at e-bike versus standard.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

bouncy_rig said:


> This is a great discussion.
> as a rider on the older side of 50 and having to reduce my time in the saddle due to both skills and fitness. I am looking at e-bike versus standard.


My experience was you definitely have to be very disciplined with your use of the magic throttle button to get anywhere near the same exercise. I think it's just basic human psychology: you never push yourself as hard as you do when you have no other choice.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I am older now too (joined MTBR in 2000 or so) and JUST got an e-bike. I also just had a baby so time is tight. I find myself riding more but mostly in the Eco mode. I still like to get a workout but over here, we climb a lot. Even an easy ride will see over 1,000 ft so that is why I can still get a great workout and with a lower heart rate. Downhill, I am much faster on my regular bike- a Yeti 4.5 so I much prefer it there but the long climbs are nice in Eco mode while on the e-bike. I am still getting used to the weight (Pivot Shuttle) but am riding more and quick rides are more convenient since I can get done quicker and not have an insanely high HR on the climbs. I think that lower sustained HR is helping a lot.


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## sooslow (Dec 14, 2017)

Read your review with interest as I’m kinda in the same boat. Got my Levo last December, and yes, my worst fears have come true, pretty much ditched the Ripmo and the Tarmac and have been a Levo fanatic because, well it’s FUN! Not to mention it’s an awesome exploration vehicle. I also ride dirt bikes and your descending experiences are the same that I have experienced, in that the Levo has much more of a planted footprint (such as my KTM 300) vs a lightweight analog Mtn bike, and rolling over obstacles is easier (at least for me). 
I have a seasonal business that keeps me off the bike from April to mid July, and when I start riding again it takes me 2 plus months to get into climbing shape, and it will be interesting to see if the Levo will help keep the HR down to help with the analog bike comeback for me.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

sooslow said:


> Read your review with interest as I'm kinda in the same boat. Got my Levo last December, and yes, my worst fears have come true, pretty much ditched the Ripmo and the Tarmac and have been a Levo fanatic because, well it's FUN! Not to mention it's an awesome exploration vehicle. I also ride dirt bikes and your descending experiences are the same that I have experienced, in that the Levo has much more of a planted footprint (such as my KTM 300) vs a lightweight analog Mtn bike, and rolling over obstacles is easier (at least for me).
> I have a seasonal business that keeps me off the bike from April to mid July, and when I start riding again it takes me 2 plus months to get into climbing shape, and it will be interesting to see if the Levo will help keep the HR down to help with the analog bike comeback for me.


If you think the Levo descends well, try a 64-65 degrees head angle bike with 180 travel, you'll be amazed

Kenevo or haibike

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

sooslow said:


> also ride dirt bikes and your descending experiences are the same that I have experienced, in that the Levo has much more of a planted footprint (such as my KTM 300)


Nice! I ride a WR250F.


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

Ive been riding MTB since 1985 pretty much at the start of when off road biking became popular. I had a background with dirt bikes and riding strong recreation dirt bikes. So, a lot of time riding two wheel but never really did road biking. I have a strong fitness background, always trained and always in shape, it is a part of who I am. I retired in 2000 as a PE teacher, never got another job and just ride bikes and ski. My wife and playmate is on the same page too so have a reliable partner. So, basically this is my background. 

We have a lot of friends who ride and ride almost daily with some sort of group depending on what the text is the nite before. Some in the group got ebikes and ride with us some are new bu ta lot of mixing in the group. My wife and I demoed ebikes last year and decided to get one, mainly as a way to ride more and a change up. We ordered some custom Orbeas in Oct and didn't get the bikes till early March. New toy for the quiver. 

Gee, this story is getting long, OK, as far as fitness and training, not going to talk about my wife but the fact she is a good rider and being with me works at it. For me, I am at the top of my fitness potential, BUT, more than older but just old at 75. I think that my strength is good for anybody and nobody stronger at my age but I have a aging heart. HR numbers dropping no matter how hard I train, eat perfect, et et., actually see a cardiologist and getting a plan of some sorts but basically testing things like coronary artery strength coronary artery damage and the like. Right now my resting HR is 48 and my exercise HR is comfortable at 115-125 and getting uncomfortable at 135. My cardiologist thinks this great, I think it well.... and way under what it used to be. So the aging process.... 

Getting back to MTB and Ebiking. Like the OP I live near Tahoe, Sierras and Carson Range. Biking here is simply always a lot of up and of course down and not much easy flats or traversing. So just riding local daily and training ride you are going to climb 1,000's per week. I wear my HRM all the time on both my pedal bike and my Ebike. Because things are crowded here I don't push my speed up or down but with the testing I have done, I normally ride about 20% faster up according to my ET's as compared to pedal and similar ET's on the down. Up on my pedal bike is at the top of my comfort zone 120's and my ebike around 105 -115. I could push way harder on my Ebike but just don't want to rage and be passing others and scaring hikers. I usually keep the ebike in lower gears too to slow down. 

Bottomline, I think ebike is less cardio at normal speeds than pedal but takes more physical strength as compared due to weight and handling the weight. Of course with ebike you can ride more and longer so it is a trade off. Lastly, if you ride a lot you will improve fitness.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

I have been riding e bikes now for 4 years. I am more fit now with the e bike than before. Non e bike was about 1,700 miles a summer and with the e bike I am riding about 3,400 miles a summer. Haven't ended up in the hospital once for over exertion since getting the e bike and my heart rate remains south of stupid. Don't seem to have a lick of sense to see it coming because I get so into the game. Can pay for the e bike with the deductibles. 
Age 65, max heartrate before e bike 175, max with e bike 145

For the most part I no longer ride my Full suspension S- Works stumpy. The 23 lb stumpy feels down right squirrely in comparison to the 60 lb e bike and it doesn't take long before my heart rate is north of stupid. 

Might have to try that Stumpy again on some easy stuff for comparison.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I got my ebike Dec '17 and logged 7000 miles on its odometer.

It's the only bike I ride now. I've been selling off most of my quiver and spare parts. I stopped shopping low weight and rolling resistance, and instead just got whatever I thought I needed to improve the ride experience, reliability, safety, and trustworthiness. I don't bother removing my fenders during dry season. I'm convinced that I've been cured of weight weenism and upgraditis for the most part.

I do wish it were more capable, but I am patiently waiting since what I had in mind doesn't yet exist. I'd like some modern geo, better standover, slammable saddle, higher grips, dual crown compatibility, stronger wheels (e.g. Superboost 157)... would love to see shorter crank options, like 150-155mm for Shimano. I'd also love to see a high single pivot with idler, and a transmission packaged with the motor.

My first year or two on it was spent playing a game of peak bagging, where I'd leave my front door and aim hit every peak within a certain radius around my house of 20 miles. Wild fires put a damper on that though. Haven't been doing much this year, but can still do 60 mile rides after being off the bike for a long while, thanks to the battery and my mental toughness from knowing I can do such, having done it regularly before.

A number of my miles are from doing errands like grocery shopping by bike. I do a quick trail ride and stop at a store before going back home, and clip 10-15 lbs worth onto a carabiner on my backpack, and add a line over it to reduce swaying. I have an ABUS Bordo folding lock that I carry with me. I also wear pads and a full face full-time, with light always attached. I don't compromise on preparedness for the sake of saving weight.

I honestly was fitter in the past, regularly riding 2-5k miles a year, but I was never so fit that I could clear all the impossible climbs I've done on the ebike. I was just fit enough to be able to keep up classic mtn bikers without any battery power, but right now I feel like the slowest guy in the group if I try to do that, after neglecting my fitness. I'm just glad the ebike can make up for not paying fitness rent, and I expect 2-3 weeks of regular riding to get me back to 80%. I just don't feel like doing what I call grinding "base miles" (AKA racking up miles and elevation), which I see as "garbage miles"--I don't ride for the sake of training, but instead get training from riding for a more utilitarian purpose, like exploring the paths less ventured, and am happy shortening the grinds with the battery assisting.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

nilswalk said:


> This isn't meant to be one of those "e-bikes are better/worse because blah blah" threads, there are plenty of those if that's what you're after. It's just some interesting (and slightly surprising, to me) observations after a year of riding one.
> 
> I live at altitude in Lake Tahoe (6600'). While there are some XC-ish trails, most of the riding involves a long climb followed by a long descent. My favorite rides start at around 8000' and then drop 2000'+ with a fair bit of pedaling along the way. It's a pretty physically demanding place to ride, especially with the thinner air. Before my e-bike it was either shuttle if you could find some friends with another truck or slog it up the fire road and then back down on the singletrack. A good ride for me would be 10-15 miles with 2000' of climbing and I'd be ready for a beer.
> 
> ...


the ebike means I get a lot more downhill runs at the price of not much uphill endurance. On one particular loop I would normally get two loops in. Now I can easily do 5-6. It is much faster to get back to the start so I find myself much better able to session the downhills.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

pierrer said:


> can pay for the e bike with the deductibles.


lol :d


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## motox155 (Jan 27, 2006)

Cool thread. My 2 cents...lets cut to the chase; NO, you don't get the same workout or fitness level from an ebike. Even if you try you won't unless you turn it off. 

Like a lot of you I'm a long time mtn biker and even used to race cc quite a bit. Also raced motocross for many years. Love two wheels. I have a number of bikes (road, gravel, mtn). A few buddies I grew up with that used to ride recently bought ebikes. They hadn't ridden for years and the thought of torturing themselves on analog bikes didn't sound fun. I did a ride with them on my 22lb CC bike, they on their ebikes. I couldn't even keep them in sight on any climbs (they were supposed to leave it in eco but that didn't last long). The next week I bought a Levo Comp so we could ride together.

I rode the Levo pretty much exclusively for about 3 months...so much fun I couldn't stop. I wore my heart rate monitor and maintained a certain HR. I'd do rides only in Eco to try and get some fitness (not really happening in Sport or Turbo). I found my HR was generally about 10 beats less in Eco doing the same rides I'd do on my CC bike.

The first time I did a real ride on my CC bike after 3 months on the ebike I noticed my lack of fitness. Even though I was consistently riding the ebike my fitness suffered. I think mainly it's because you just don't suffer on the ebike. When things start to get tough you always have that little bit of help that you don't have while suffering on a analog bike.

Long story short; ebikes are awesome. Especially when riding with other ebikes! They are fun and that's what it's all about. As we age it gets tougher to get or stay in shape. Ebikes allow a huge group of people who probably wouldn't ride at all to get out and enjoy what they probably grew up doing, without going through the suffering! All my buds that have them fall into that category. No way they'd ride analog bikes anymore but they ride their ebikes a few times a week, and are much fitter because of it! It also allows my wife and I to ride together. She rides my ebike (in Eco) and it allows me to ride at a fast pace. No way that happens on an analog bike (she doesn't ride much anymore).


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Since nilswalk originally posted his observations I have really played with his ideas. 

First off I started by evaluating his definition of physical fitness. I question if it is necessary to go the level of physical fitness that nilswalk is talking about to get the quality and longevity benefits of life? There are plenty of studies out there to suggest that this is not the case and plenty of studies to suggest that very high levels of physical fitness makes things harder to regulate body processes to maximize lifespan. There is also plenty of studies that say the opposite. Welcome to medieval science where publish or perish and poor repeatability of results are the norm. I use to believe that the higher your fitness level, the longer that you would be active and live. Over the decades I have not personally seen good evidence of that. 

To make a longer story short, I decided to use a definition of fitness as overall quality of life from physical to mental. With that I set about to play with nilswalk's observations.

I have two bikes. Bike one is a Carbon Specialized S Works Stumpjumper FSR running 27.5 Rocket Ron's. Bike two is a Motobecane frame Titanium fat bike with BBSHD setup and 52 volt, 1,100 watt hour battery.

In playing around with both bikes, on the same day at short close intervals, I do experience the effect that nilswalk noted. Namely that I don't have the explosive power on the analog bike that I previously owned. I am not sure that effect is not mostly mental. I will explain.

E bikes are addictive, not because they can do all the work for you but because of the acceleration and feeling of being superman. Once you get use to that and it goes away you experience the opposite effect going back to an analog bike. 

I can pedal my loaded e bike (80lb) without power and it seems easy. Mainly because I expect it to be heavy and I accelerate slow. When I get on the stumpy it feels like I am trying to tow start a dozer. I remember it feeling light and the acceleration is just not there like I remember having. I immediately miss the e bike attributes and I could easily chalk it up to poor fitness. I went out and reset my expectations and accelerated more slowly on the Stumpy. Big difference, the Stumpy feels light and more responsive. A pleasant surprise. 

I have a high level of confidence that the e bike has increased my fitness level to a higher overall level than I would achieve with the analog bike. I am also schooled in the scientific method and am well aware that confirmation bias is a human trait. It's not impossible that I am fooling the sht out of myself but I don't think so. I am certainly happier, more excited and get out way more often on the e bike. Science is messy with a human involved. Science does not exist if that human has an agenda, especially so if they pretend not to know it.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

There will be two elements of my e-bike experience: Trail building and Riding.

I've had an ebike greater than a year, but half of that was a fat e-bike only which I rode alternating with my regular bike. Since I got my Turbo Levo Comp, I am slowly gravitating to predominately riding 'e' though I still do ride my Strive on occasion. 

I know I am an outlier, but I spend probably 2-3x actual time digging trails more than I ride. Without the e-bike, one would have to give. Either I would ride less to maintain current digging time commitment or I would dig less to help me recover and ride what I currently ride time-wise. Either of those two outcomes is not a positive to me and/or the local community.

I can tell you for sure riding 'e' has brought my skill level up and I also feel it has improved the quality of the trails I build. With the e-bike I can rip out multiple laps WHILE I am still digging the trail. This allows me to get immediate real time feedback on the build so I can tweak before its finalized. 

As for pure fitness on my end, I don't think I have lost any endurance, but have lost a little explosive power. If losing a little bit of explosive power is what it takes to be able to ride same/more, get more skillful overall, maintain overall fitness and continue to dig new trails/maintain and improve existing, I think that's a fair trade.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

PierreR said:


> First off I started by evaluating his definition of physical fitness. I question if it is necessary to go the level of physical fitness that nilswalk is talking about to get the quality and longevity benefits of life? There are plenty of studies out there to suggest that this is not the case and plenty of studies to suggest that very high levels of physical fitness makes things harder to regulate body processes to maximize lifespan. There is also plenty of studies that say the opposite. Welcome to medieval science where publish or perish and poor repeatability of results are the norm. I use to believe that the higher your fitness level, the longer that you would be active and live. Over the decades I have not personally seen good evidence of that.


That's a good point. "Fitness" is such a broad term that covers a number of goals. Like you, I've also come to suspect that being as strong and powerful as possible does not necessarily equate to optimum health. For me though longer lifespan is (hopefully) a side-effect of being healthy. The primary goal is to be able to do the activities that I enjoy at the intensity and for the duration I want, for as many trips around the sun as I can.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

ebiking to get to places you'd never have ridden on a non ebike

ebiking 2x-5x longer then you would otherwise, going 2-5X the distance, seeing 10X more things then you would otherwise

not fretting over hills, or wind

battery anxiety can be an issue, hate to run out of juice when your having so much fun ebiking around.

this year (pre covid) there are a ton more ebikes out riding around then just a year ago and its noticeable. its catching on!
With covid, there are even more ebikes out, with all the money being handed out by the government, the boredom people are experiencing brings them out to play on their ebikes.


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

Interesting thread. I may be the oldest in the thread at 74, and it was a tough decision whether to "breakdown" and get into Ebiking as it could be viewed as "giving up". However, after my first ride with a really good expert rider, I'm a believer. I picked up a Levo SL and rode 95% in eco, and 5% in 2nd level. At the end of an 18 mile, 3200' ride at 10,500 feet of gnarly elevation, I still had 60% battery. Now that said, I was a dead puppy afterward, but I could have never ridden this with my buddy, if I was on my Yeti 4.5.

If you are worried about conditioning, just ride further, or just keep it in eco...you will keep your conditioning!


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

My experience with fitness and skill is that the eBike builds base fitness much better than the MTB. I can control my effort unlike my regular bike where there is no choice but to smash myself. The regular bike builds the top level fitness in ways that the eBike can't. 

That being said you can FORCE yourself to the same zone on the Ebike by altering the level of support and really pushing yourself. With the Specialized setups you can have multiple maps for a single bike. As an example Trail may be setup at 25/100 on one map and 5/50 on another map.

The eBike can build a lot of strength for throwing the bike around, but almost every eBike is going to be a plow bike. If you are going back to a traditional trail or XC bike there will not be as much of a crossover on the skills. You will most likely find it much easier to throw the standard bike around on the trail and through corners.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

At 58, for the past year or so, 65% of my miles are on my "regular" bike(s) and 35% are on my eMTB. I would say that the eMTB has added one extra day per week to my riding overall, and I'll typically do 15-25 miles per week more as a result (including a second eMTB ride most weeks). I tend to ride the eMTB on fairly technical terrain, and 25 miles on it vs 15 miles on the analog bike may not be as big a leg workout but it is a more demanding full body/upper body working. Cardio slightly less. My overall fitness is certainly better since adding the eMTB to the quiver, including getting a number of age group KOM's and top 10's on both descents and climbs on my "regular" MTB. I've been riding the same "regular" MTB for a few years now, so no bike changes. No major dietary changes. Down a few pounds from riding more and adding some non-alcoholic IPAs into the mix. All in all the eMTB has been a net positive for my fitness for sure.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Well, even with throttle only (no pas) ebiking is quite a workout. Its just you go so much further then you would otherwise. There is no stopping and thinking, should I ride 30 miles on the ebike for fun and hit that ice cream shop, or dont even bother getting out and riding because you have no ebike. Its too far, its too cold out, its raining out. Ebiking fun, negates rain and cold and farness.


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

I have a friend who owns a bike shop. For marketing and sales purposes he hosts group rides and will often go out with a buyer on a ride or two to make sure the buyer is happy and settled with their new bike purchase. With that much riding to do and to market his own shop e-bikes he decided to use an e-bike for all these rides.

Bottom line, even though his saddle time and mileage more than doubled, his fitness tanked. After a few years on the e-bike he is struggling to re-build the fitness. He says, for him personally, the e-bike was a huge mistake.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Lopaka said:


> I have a friend who owns a bike shop. For marketing and sales purposes he hosts group rides and will often go out with a buyer on a ride or two to make sure the buyer is happy and settled with their new bike purchase. With that much riding to do and to market his own shop e-bikes he decided to use an e-bike for all these rides.
> 
> Bottom line, even though his saddle time and mileage more than doubled, his fitness tanked. After a few years on the e-bike he is struggling to re-build the fitness. He says, for him personally, the e-bike was a huge mistake.


I feel like I can sort of relate. Riding casually all the time has made me more casual.

I once raced expert class in CA state enduro series, along with regularly riding with racer buddies who also were expert and pro. I was still no where near the local legends, like Brian Lopes, but it was interesting to learn that there's so much more to work on to get faster, being only really fast on stuff I was familiar with. It expanded my view of the world. Now I'm back to solo riding and hanging with much more casual folk if grouped, similar to how it was when I first started riding. I only open up to race-pace stuff on rare occasion, just to know I still have it in me. My emtb's geo isn't well tuned for riding at the limits, being more of a cruiser, plus stuff breaks when I ride hard and don't wanna end up stranded by a JRA failure. My emtb's already making noise that I've yet to pinpoint in repeated inspections/troubleshooting.

It's like I retired from riding hard, and feel like I forgot more about riding than most have even learned. Solid symptoms of complacency...

I once did buy into the whole "do more laps" thing, but it's discouraging riding hard on such crappy geo. Emtb is basically going through the "29er early years", with equipment that feels too underwhelming (flexy, lacking strength and durability), and generally feeling sluggish (long CS). The next phase is a push for lightweight upgrades, which is currently in progress. The next phase is new heavier duty standards to beef parts up. I can't wait for emtb gravity racing to be invented, to bring serious attention to the consumer options, like what enduro racing has done to create modern 29er enduro bikes. Right now, if you care about your MTB ambitions, you're better off just carrying energy in a backpack in the form of energy drink for endurance, than trying to justify an emtb for training, IMO.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

matt4x4 said:


> ebiking 2x-5x longer then you would otherwise, going 2-5X the distance, seeing 10X more things then you would otherwise


Do you see 20x more when traveling by car? The slower I go the more I see, and I see the most when not moving at all.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

matt4x4 said:


> Well, even with throttle only (no pas) ebiking is quite a workout. Its just you go so much further then you would otherwise. There is no stopping and thinking, should I ride 30 miles on the ebike for fun and hit that ice cream shop, or dont even bother getting out and riding because you have no ebike. Its too far, its too cold out, its raining out. Ebiking fun, negates rain and cold and farness.


That makes riding a bicycle sound horrible. For me 3 hours on a bike is 3 hours, how far I travel is irrelevant.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

I've lost 10 pounds in weight riding my e-gravel bike. Granted I am riding distance on gravel/road surfaces. My HR seems to be on par with my numbers from riding my old road bike though. I actually thought my HR would be lower considering the bike takes some of the load in ECO/Touring mode but it's still the same. I still feel worn out and sore when I'm done riding my e-bike. Climbing on city streets and gravel roads are still a bit harsh on my body. 

These days, I just want to pedal, take pictures, and have fun before it's all over. I really want to try an e-MTB but I can't legally ride them on all of my local trails like I can with my hardtail. I'm the type who doesn't want to ruffle feathers with my fellow mountain bikers or strain any e-bike advocacy efforts. My hardtail has been killing me lately and I may end up just walking away from mountain biking in the next couple years. For now, I'm just doing my best to enjoy the ride on my hardtail.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

I've also lost about 10 pounds riding my SL over the last several weeks. I'm dialing down the power levels on my rides, having more control over my heart rate, power output. Not redlining on every climb. I'm doing elevation gains of 4000 to 5000 feet over 25-35 miles that would kill me on a mountain bike, riding more often.

I'll have a real test on the effect of riding solely on an E-bike in September. Going on a trip to Sedona w/friends. Obviously, not bringing the SL because it is illegal on the good stuff out there. Reserved the new Evil Following for 4 days of singletrack bliss.



J.B. Weld said:


> how far I travel is irrelevant.


I get your perspective. Every minute that I get on a bike on singletrack is a gift. Similarly, every extra inch of singletrack that I experience is also a gift, so distance to me is not irrelevant.

I love all aspects of the experience, even the pain of a long climb.

Not all of us are noobs out here blasting by people on Turbo. I've been riding mountain bikes for 30 years non-stop.

Life is short. Clock is ticking.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Battery said:


> I've lost 10 pounds in weight riding my e-gravel bike. Granted I am riding distance on gravel/road surfaces. My HR seems to be on par with my numbers from riding my old road bike though. I actually thought my HR would be lower considering the bike takes some of the load in ECO/Touring mode but it's still the same.


I've limited experience but so far my heart rates are miles apart between an ebike and non-ebike on road & gravel surfaces, I could take climbing kom's without breaking a sweat. May be a different story off road, I'll find out soon enough.


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## The Squeaky Wheel (Dec 30, 2003)

Salespunk said:


> My experience with fitness and skill is that the eBike builds base fitness much better than the MTB. I can control my effort unlike my regular bike where there is no choice but to smash myself. The regular bike builds the top level fitness in ways that the eBike can't.
> 
> The eBike can build a lot of strength for throwing the bike around, but almost every eBike is going to be a plow bike. If you are going back to a traditional trail or XC bike there will not be as much of a crossover on the skills. You will most likely find it much easier to throw the standard bike around on the trail and through corners.


I'm four months into e-biking on a YT Decoy. My experience thus far mirrors yours. I track my HR carefully. I don't hit max HR on my e-bike like I do on my analog bike. But my HR stays sustained around 75-80% max HR on the e for long periods of time. I'm far less fatigued on the downhill and muscling around my 57 lb YT has definitely improved my handling when I switch to my 32 lb Evil.

I've not noticed a loss of fitness when i ride my Evil. I can still hit max HR. I just get psychologically annoyed at moving so slow on the uphills!


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> That makes riding a bicycle sound horrible. For me 3 hours on a bike is 3 hours, how far I travel is irrelevant.


Really?

So getting more downhill doesn't count?

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rod9301 said:


> Really?
> 
> So getting more downhill doesn't count?


To each his own. I love going downhill but I don't live for it, I have more fun on xc rides than lift served ones.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

For me, an admittedly lazy person, the "e" is a nice change of pace, but not much exercise. Fortunately, my wife and I ride MTB every weekend, so that serves to keep me in fairly decent riding condition.


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## millerka (May 9, 2008)

I have on been on my Turbo Levo since May. I feel that it has really boosted my riding fitness! Riding my analog bike was a love/hate relationship, apprehension before the ride and if things went well I felt glad the ride was over, if not I was whipped. I'm 65 now and riding the MTB was getting old, my post winter fitness was bad and trying to get it back was killing me.
The e-bike allows me to ride everyday and when I'm done I can't wait for the next ride. I typically ride with eco set to 10/35 mtb 20/35 turbo 35/40, spending the majority of my time in eco. I had a power meter on my analog bike and I find that I expend roughly the same amount of calories over a similar ride on my e-bike in my eco mode. Here in the Northeast we have been having long stretches of +90 degree days with humidity, in which case I tend to pop it into my mtb mode and have a nice comfortable fun reduced sweat ride. On a hot ride last week I met some guys on a climb a little younger than me melting down mid climb. Let's just say they would have loved an e-bike right then. On hot weeks my riding days per week stay the same albeit with reduced efforts and lower caloric expenditures . As far as fitness level goes I monitor that with my road bike, it also has a power meter. Everything is relative but I have to say relative to me I'm flying. FTP is way up. I can work comfortable for longer at higher heart rates. I have lost 20 pounds. My wife and I ride a tandem and she's always telling me she really can feel the difference. I have been reading that some trainers are recommending ebikes as training tools because they can program an efforts that can be followed without going outside the desired perimeters. Blowing up during a workout is not a recipe for success. I hardly notice the extra weight of the bike unless I eject and the bike follows and hits me, that does suck. So for an old guy trying to stay in the game it's an ebike.


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

*I've been doing it all wrong*



millerka said:


> I have on been on my Turbo Levo since May. I feel that it has really boosted my riding fitness! Riding my analog bike was a love/hate relationship, apprehension before the ride and if things went well I felt glad the ride was over, if not I was whipped. I'm 65 now and riding the MTB was getting old, my post winter fitness was bad and trying to get it back was killing me.
> The e-bike allows me to ride everyday and when I'm done I can't wait for the next ride. I typically ride with eco set to 10/35 mtb 20/35 turbo 35/40, spending the majority of my time in eco. I had a power meter on my analog bike and I find that I expend roughly the same amount of calories over a similar ride on my e-bike in my eco mode. Here in the Northeast we have been having long stretches of +90 degree days with humidity, in which case I tend to pop it into my mtb mode and have a nice comfortable fun reduced sweat ride. On a hot ride last week I met some guys on a climb a little younger than me melting down mid climb. Let's just say they would have loved an e-bike right then. On hot weeks my riding days per week stay the same albeit with reduced efforts and lower caloric expenditures . As far as fitness level goes I monitor that with my road bike, it also has a power meter. Everything is relative but I have to say relative to me I'm flying. FTP is way up. I can work comfortable for longer at higher heart rates. I have lost 20 pounds. My wife and I ride a tandem and she's always telling me she really can feel the difference. I have been reading that some trainers are recommending ebikes as training tools because they can program an efforts that can be followed without going outside the desired perimeters. Blowing up during a workout is not a recipe for success. I hardly notice the extra weight of the bike unless I eject and the bike follows and hits me, that does suck. So for an old guy trying to stay in the game it's an ebike.


I have been doing it all wrong. I have been trying to raise my FTP by using a painful and rigorous training program when I should have been riding an E-bike this whole time.


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## millerka (May 9, 2008)

I would not stop what your doing, sounds like maybe it works for you! For me I'm very happy with my outcomes and am having a good time. Painful and rigorous never floated my boat YMMV.


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## Callender (Mar 25, 2014)

I'm only two months in on my Levo, but I have some similar results. At 60, I'm riding downhill and jumping better than ever--more laps and I'm not exhausted when I get I start the descent. And I've dropped about 3 pounds off my massive 154-pound frame! Blood pressure and heart rate have also dropped, so I'm doing something right.

I've only ridden the acoustic bike once this summer (and one 20ish mile road ride), not sure how my cardio is. I'm signed up for a 60-mile road ride tomorrow, so I guess I'll find out!

Edit: Mission Accomplished! 64 miles done. It was flat, but it was as well as I could have done pre-ebike. I was very happy and a little surprised.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

I've been riding my old Evil Insurgent for the last couple of weeks since the Levo is in the shop with a blown motor. I was sort of dreading it (expecting fitness to be down) but my cardio is fine. Peak power is definitely down but I can still grind out a long climb just fine.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

I decided to buy a Salsa Cutthroat for my distance riding. A couple weeks ago, I took my Cannondale Synapse Neo on a 70 mile ride and the battery died. I was half a mile from my house when that happened. The bike became really heavy to pedal. After riding 70 miles and 2.4k ft of climbing, my legs felt like jelly and pushing a 40 pound bike was too challenging by that point. The Cutthroat is half the weight and should be a better distance companion for me. I might use my e-bike as a recovery bike and potentially a commuter if we ever get away from COVID-19. 

I've been trimming down lately but I think it's from gravel pounding my regular hardtail 20-30 miles a week after work. I did notice a difference when I switched between my e-bike and my regular bike. It was challenging at first to pedal distance on my hardtail but my body adapted and it's feeling like the norm. I stay off our local mountain bike trails because most of them are very dry due to lack of rain. I believe that pedaling my hardtail during the work week helps my fitness out more than riding my e-bike frequently during the week. Everyone is different though!


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

I do both. E-biking for commuting, though I will still ride in some days. Normal biking for trails.

I wouldn't want to go all ebike unless I had to, because it's a different kind of ride and workout. I can see it being great for people with some physical difficulties or someone just out to have some fun without all the pain.

Ebikes are FUN!

You can go for a swim or you can hop on a jetski!


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## sailfast (Apr 1, 2020)

motox155 said:


> Cool thread. My 2 cents...lets cut to the chase; NO, you don't get the same workout or fitness level from an ebike. Even if you try you won't unless you turn it off.
> 
> Like a lot of you I'm a long time mtn biker and even used to race cc quite a bit. Also raced motocross for many years. Love two wheels. I have a number of bikes (road, gravel, mtn). A few buddies I grew up with that used to ride recently bought ebikes. They hadn't ridden for years and the thought of torturing themselves on analog bikes didn't sound fun. I did a ride with them on my 22lb CC bike, they on their ebikes. I couldn't even keep them in sight on any climbs (they were supposed to leave it in eco but that didn't last long). The next week I bought a Levo Comp so we could ride together.
> 
> ...


Amen ........the Scott eRide I bought at the Start of Covid allows me to do climbs and descents I could no longer do 10 years ago. Now it's fun again, cardio is much improved, so is my upper body strength. Though at 78 I've got to keep my eyes glued to the trail and be reminded to tap the brakes a little harder here and there, keeping spills to a minimum. Yes, live can be a blast with a little e-help!


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Finally tried out an eMTB visiting in laws, Klamath Falls, OR. OC&E trail. Gravel portion starting at Olene. Elev. 4200 ft. plus or minus.

My cardio is good. Endurance is good. Overall fitness.... good.

This part of the trail is quite a bit of deep, loose gravel from the old rail line. 

The eBike extended my ride a few miles and was key for the return back (tired) to the trailhead. New to ebikes and this being a rental, I was super focused on battery life. I felt if I lost battery I would be in a huge bind- that ebike was heavy (Specialized something or other) and I had tried it out no assist, early on, for awareness.

So. Still manually pedal one of my 3 bikes regularly. All the benefits if using 100% of myself for fitness and personal fulfillment.

Today, still watching eBike improvments and cost. I will only get eBike serious when I need that pedal assistance to stay in the game.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Quite an interesting thread. I would like to chime in. About a year ago, I bought a Cannondale Synapse Neo 2 electric gravel bike. I rode that bike up to 70+ miles per session and climbed around 2k feet. It felt nice because I used less energy to get from point A to B. In the end, it felt like I was missing something. I honestly felt like I wasn't getting physically stronger. My HR was on par with my normal road bike though. I ended up getting a 2020 Salsa Cutthroat and rode my regular route with that bike instead. I noticed a much bigger increase in my overall strength. 

I do have a lot of health issues and it's starting to impact my ability to ride a bike. Back in 2020, I thought I needed an e-bike to keep me pedaling due to my health problems. Come to find out, I just needed a more comfortable bike. My Cutthroat has 2.2" tires and it feels so much more comfortable riding on road and dirt with those tires. My overall distance improved and I am fairly confident I can hammer out a century ride on mixed terrain. I honestly don't care about my average speed. I'm more interested in the journey. If it takes me 8-10 hours to ride a century, then I'm gonna make memories along the way. 

I've since put my e-bike up for sale. I'm still interested in getting an eMTB because I physically cannot shred a mountain bike any more. I just want an eMTB for riding laps at my local bike parks. However I'm reluctant to purchase one because they aren't allowed at most of my local bike parks. I don't want to cause drama for local riders so I've stayed away from eMTBs.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

@Battery

Spot on post-'specially the last paragraph.

I have mostly converted from MTB to a super high end flat bar fitness bike. Fuji 1.1D 50-34, 12-34, 10 sp. -ride hilly routes on rural roads or the less used portions of paved trails. I use the technical shortfalls of that bike in positive ways.

Looked at the Cutthroat (all models) online. I may try one, if, the only dealer nearby has availability. Super nice. If I ride in Oregon again, I'll consider this bike.

E bikes. Not my "cup of tea" as they say. Hope all of us challenged by age or health keep on as long as we can.


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

This thread cracks me up. I don't think it is intended to do so.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

EKram said:


> @Battery
> 
> Spot on post-'specially the last paragraph.
> 
> ...


Thanks! The Cutthroat is such an awesome bike. It's so comfortable. I can see why 25 percent of riders used that bike for the Tour Divide. I do love e-bikes for what they are, but I don't want to hurt any eMTB advocacy efforts by riding them in areas I shouldn't be. Some of the riders in my area are very passionate about mountain biking and would give people a hard time if they brought an eMTB to certain parks in my area.


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

nilswalk said:


> I certainly rode more than I think I would have without the e-bike. Lots of quick before work or lunchtime rides that I simply wouldn't have had the time for.


I always hear this, usually followed by working so many hours, going to school, family, etc. It seems like a total fallacy to me. If you get in a 20 minute ride or a 3 hour ride then no matter if your on a mountain bike or an ebike you are riding the same amount of TIME...

NOW, can you go farther and faster on an ebike. sure. (effort is either less on the ebike or the same though so your NOT getting in a "better workout" just because it's longer if the motor is doing part of the work and that's the only reason your going longer) But the whole I need an ebike because my life is so busy is BS.  I'm not saying that's what you said. It is something that gets said a lot though and you did say something about how you, "wouldn't have had the time" to ride which falls along the same line. Whatever time you spent on the ebike would have been the same amount of time on any mountain bike.

Of course the one caveat is if your doing self shuttle. For sure you can get more DH laps in. There is of course merit for "training", though again I think that gets thrown out as an excuse to use a motor.

I mean I don't care if someone wants to ride an ebike if there doing it right. There are some people who need ebikes. And for sure the lure of the motor helping people pedal does provide the carrot to get them out riding more. But that's just the choice being made. So people just need to own their choice and not make excuses for it.


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## bikerbassist (Nov 23, 2020)

And for those of us who can ride both E and non E bike- and are in decent shape -and do it because we make a choice to, there are no reasons to make an excuse. I don't. Fact is being able to self shuttle a 4000 ft elevation gain and ride back in a 2 hr time span is fantastic. But to the naysayers, I was pretty fast in comparison to other riders ( at least on Strava) on my regular bike -actually sometimes faster on the descents in fact.
People need to stop being negative. All of my pro level friends are accepting of e bikes, whether they own one or not. Simple as that. I'm a professional musician( by that I mean I've toured 35 + countries, given masterclasses in multiple countries, and have students online from around the world) and music forums are filled with people of limited ability with a LOT of opinions. Most of the time they just need to shut up and learn how to play. Same with bikes. Learn to ride, choose a bike that works for you. Hit the trails. Ride with people better than you. Study with someone if that works too.... Oh yes, and ignore 90% of forum opinions and you'll be set.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

> I certainly rode more than I think I would have without the e-bike. Lots of quick before work or lunchtime rides that I simply wouldn't have had the time for.





stiingya said:


> I always hear this, usually followed by working so many hours, going to school, family, etc. It seems like a total fallacy to me. If you get in a 20 minute ride or a 3 hour ride then no matter if your on a mountain bike or an ebike you are riding the same amount of TIME...


Yeah, that's true, time is time, but a bike ride is not just X amount of minutes that you can ride for and stop when you've done exactly that number of minutes and pow, you're magically at home. It's on a trail or route of a particular length. For me, the lunch rides that I have the choice of doing right from my house are loops, typically starting with a climb up a fire road to get to the good part of some trail, then the downhill part (which is really the goal - a quick blast to clear my head from whatever has been going on at work that day) that spits you out somewhere else and then the climb back home. There's a minimum amount of distance to cover and the e-bike makes it just possible to squeeze that in on a lunch break while still having time to grab some food, get home and back to work etc. With the regular MTB I'd run out of time just because that's how long the loop is.

And yeah, you're kind of putting words in my mouth. It kinda sounds to me like the only explanation you'll be happy with is one that labels the e-biker as lazy and somehow not as good as you


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## bouncy_rig (Aug 22, 2007)

I have been road riding a Commuter E-bike about 2000 miles this spring/summer and fall. It has improved my skills and ability to go longer on the Mountain bike that is over 10 years old I am riding mountain better this year than any other time in the past maybe it's confidence that I can actually recover from the burn with continuous pedaling. In my past I would hit a burn and not feel the ability to recover. Did a 40 mile gravel ride a few weeks ago.


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

nilswalk said:


> Yeah, that's true, time is time, but a bike ride is not just X amount of minutes that you can ride for and stop when you've done exactly that number of minutes and pow, you're magically at home. It's on a trail or route of a particular length. For me, the lunch rides that I have the choice of doing right from my house are loops, typically starting with a climb up a fire road to get to the good part of some trail, then the downhill part (which is really the goal - a quick blast to clear my head from whatever has been going on at work that day) that spits you out somewhere else and then the climb back home. There's a minimum amount of distance to cover and the e-bike makes it just possible to squeeze that in on a lunch break while still having time to grab some food, get home and back to work etc. With the regular MTB I'd run out of time just because that's how long the loop is.
> 
> And yeah, you're kind of putting words in my mouth. It kinda sounds to me like the only explanation you'll be happy with is one that labels the e-biker as lazy and somehow not as good as you


Oh I'm sure. There's no way you could ride out 1/2 your time and back 1/2 your time and then eat or ride a different trail, you OBVIOUSLY just NEED a motor on your bike there... 

This was exactly the point I was making. Your coming up with some elaborate excuse of why an ebike is the only solution for your situation instead of just owning up to your choice to have a motor help you pedal.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

stiingya said:


> Oh I'm sure. There's no way you could ride out 1/2 your time and back 1/2 your time and then eat or ride a different trail, you OBVIOUSLY just NEED a motor on your bike there...
> 
> This was exactly the point I was making. Your coming up with some elaborate excuse of why an ebike is the only solution for your situation instead of just owning up to your choice to have a motor help you pedal.


Relax Darren, it's gonna be ok. We don't have to do it your way. Seriously, your contempt is wasted here. Maybe a cup of tea or a little lie down?


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

mlx john said:


> Relax Darren, it's gonna be ok. We don't have to do it your way. Seriously, your contempt is wasted here. Maybe a cup of tea or a little lie down?


Thanks Dwight, your input is really bringing high levels of satisfaction to the conversation. Please continue...


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## Chet Bango (May 19, 2004)

bikerbassist said:


> And for those of us who can ride both E and non E bike- and are in decent shape -and do it because we make a choice to, there are no reasons to make an excuse. I don't. Fact is being able to self shuttle a 4000 ft elevation gain and ride back in a 2 hr time span is fantastic. But to the naysayers, I was pretty fast in comparison to other riders ( at least on Strava) on my regular bike -actually sometimes faster on the descents in fact.
> People need to stop being negative. All of my pro level friends are accepting of e bikes, whether they own one or not. Simple as that. I'm a professional musician( by that I mean I've toured 35 + countries, given masterclasses in multiple countries, and have students online from around the world) and music forums are filled with people of limited ability with a LOT of opinions. Most of the time they just need to shut up and learn how to play. Same with bikes. Learn to ride, choose a bike that works for you. Hit the trails. Ride with people better than you. Study with someone if that works too.... Oh yes, and ignore 90% of forum opinions and you'll be set.


Very well said. Reminds me of a effect pedal maker answering the question, "does a vintage germanium transistor make a difference?" His answer, "In the studio? No. On stage? No. In the practice space? No. But, apparently, on internet forums they are very important. Nowhere else does it matter though."
I ride my ebike because it's fun, same reason I ride my acoustic bike. I really don't care what some forum hater has to say about why I should or shouldn't ride either, but I do hope people take his "advice" with a grain of salt, or they might be missing out on some fun.


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## PattD (Feb 22, 2004)

There are some very interesting and relevant info in this thread. I can't agree more with what was just said to sum it all up: who gives a sh$t what some other dbag thinks about you and your ebike! 1st off, if they're in this thread in the 1st place over the 7000 other conversations on this forum, they are probably missing out some very key things in life. It's about Physical and mental health and if your eBike helps provide one or both, go ride the damn thing and don't look back.

Now, with that out of the way, I've been testing my fitness #'s on my eBike vs my pedal mtb. I'm not in to really any type of racing much anymore, but I do dabble in Enduro, as well as endurance stuff just to keep me focused. I sold my road bike years ago because quite frankly it was just too boring to me. I'd rather take my dogs hiking or do something else with my 3 hours +. But...at the same time as I passed the 50 year old mark, my general fitness really started to suffer as I live in the mountains and Zone 2 training is hard to come by: its either up or down. This led to me riding less and less to allow time to recover. But less and less riding led to less than ideal mental health. Now I had a dilemma which made me consider the benefits of adding an eBike to the training mix. I took a flyer and bought a Santa Cruz Bullit with the idea being that I could loop out my favorite enduro tracks and not tax my body quite the same. Well, while that assumption was spot on, I also found that the eBike is a great Zone 2 training tool. I can go out and do 3 hours keeping my heart rare right in that same Zone 2 that my old road bike rides put me in, and i actually could have fun while doing it. I compared 3 different rides in a week to see where my #"s were. All 3 were around 2 hours and I only really paid attention to Average HR and Max HR. I compared an eBike ride with 3k in elevation gain, a flat dirt road ride on my hardtail with only about 800 feet of elevation gain, and then a super techy power ride with about 1800 feet of gain on my 29er FS bike. What I found is that my average HR was 119,119, and 120 respectively. My max was 132, 145, 160 respectively. Then the main difference was the amount of time spent in Zone 2. The eBike takes the win there as its very controllable based on how you use the assistance levels....but its 1000 times better than logging flat road miles or sitting on the trainer for hours on end and its very similar in its training affect.

Lots of useless info I know, but if for any reason someone feels the need to justify them riding an eBike, just chalk it up to being a way more fun than slogging miles on a road bike or a trainer.


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

If they made E weights so a person could lift heavier weight and/or do more reps at the gym because the machine is doing part of the work would it make sense to start a thread about how much more you can lift now? Sorry, the concept doesn't make sense to me. Again, I don't care if that's what you want to do. And I can totally see how an ebike is probably a LOT of fun. But this thread was at the top of the page and so I read and commented. Feel free to discuss, debate or argue the point. Maybe you'll change my mind. But the whole thing where I'm getting bagged on because I have a different opinion is lame...


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

stiingya said:


> If they made E weights so a person could lift heavier weight and/or do more reps at the gym because the machine is doing part of the work would it make sense to start a thread about how much more you can lift now? Sorry, the concept doesn't make sense to me.


Agreed.



PattD said:


> I also found that the eBike is a great Zone 2 training tool. I can go out and do 3 hours keeping my heart rare right in that same Zone 2 that my old road bike rides put me in, and i actually could have fun while doing it.


Zone 2 isn't a Training Tool. It's a Recovery Tool.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

PattD said:


> There are some very interesting and relevant info in this thread. I can't agree more with what was just said to sum it all up: who gives a sh$t what some other dbag thinks about you and your ebike! 1st off, if they're in this thread in the 1st place over the 7000 other conversations on this forum, they are probably missing out some very key things in life. It's about Physical and mental health and if your eBike helps provide one or both, go ride the damn thing and don't look back.
> 
> Now, with that out of the way, I've been testing my fitness #'s on my eBike vs my pedal mtb. I'm not in to really any type of racing much anymore, but I do dabble in Enduro, as well as endurance stuff just to keep me focused. I sold my road bike years ago because quite frankly it was just too boring to me. I'd rather take my dogs hiking or do something else with my 3 hours +. But...at the same time as I passed the 50 year old mark, my general fitness really started to suffer as I live in the mountains and Zone 2 training is hard to come by: its either up or down. This led to me riding less and less to allow time to recover. But less and less riding led to less than ideal mental health. Now I had a dilemma which made me consider the benefits of adding an eBike to the training mix. I took a flyer and bought a Santa Cruz Bullit with the idea being that I could loop out my favorite enduro tracks and not tax my body quite the same. Well, while that assumption was spot on, I also found that the eBike is a great Zone 2 training tool. I can go out and do 3 hours keeping my heart rare right in that same Zone 2 that my old road bike rides put me in, and i actually could have fun while doing it. I compared 3 different rides in a week to see where my #"s were. All 3 were around 2 hours and I only really paid attention to Average HR and Max HR. I compared an eBike ride with 3k in elevation gain, a flat dirt road ride on my hardtail with only about 800 feet of elevation gain, and then a super techy power ride with about 1800 feet of gain on my 29er FS bike. What I found is that my average HR was 119,119, and 120 respectively. My max was 132, 145, 160 respectively. Then the main difference was the amount of time spent in Zone 2. The eBike takes the win there as its very controllable based on how you use the assistance levels....but its 1000 times better than logging flat road miles or sitting on the trainer for hours on end and its very similar in its training affect.
> 
> Lots of useless info I know, but if for any reason someone feels the need to justify them riding an eBike, just chalk it up to being a way more fun than slogging miles on a road bike or a trainer.


That's why Enduro and downhill racers, in France at least, are e mtn biking now instead of road biking. And they get the benefit of the downhill, while going uphill in zone 2.

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> Zone 2 isn't a Training Tool. It's a Recovery Tool.



No, the couch is a recovery tool, z-2 is definitely training.


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## PattD (Feb 22, 2004)

Zone 2 is how I best build the base from which Im able to build the best engine for sprinting. My personal experience says lots of Zone 2, some quality Zone 4/5, try to limit Zone 3 and low Zone 4. They have the highest impact with the lowest training affect. However, it's never a 1 size fits all so everyone has their own sweet spot. For me, that's how my body best responds. Problem in the recent past is Zone 2 was so boring...I hate road riding and live at 9000 feet....so my eBike took over nicely for Zone 2 stuff plus I get the DH training on the return. This fall, I took 1 day a week where I'd keep the motor off and climb for 60 to 90 mins, then finish up with another 60 mins assisted. Climbing 2000 feet with a 50# bike is about as taxing as it gets. I resisted eBikes forever, but glad I was talked into pulling the trigger.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

PattD said:


> Zone 2 is how I best build the base from which Im able to build the best engine for sprinting. My personal experience says lots of Zone 2, some quality Zone 4/5, try to limit Zone 3 and low Zone 4. They have the highest impact with the lowest training affect. However, it's never a 1 size fits all so everyone has their own sweet spot. For me, that's how my body best responds. Problem in the recent past is Zone 2 was so boring...I hate road riding and live at 9000 feet....so my eBike took over nicely for Zone 2 stuff plus I get the DH training on the return. This fall, I took 1 day a week where I'd keep the motor off and climb for 60 to 90 mins, then finish up with another 60 mins assisted. Climbing 2000 feet with a 50# bike is about as taxing as it gets. I resisted eBikes forever, but glad I was talked into pulling the trigger.


No matter what you say, for some, it will be like talking to a wall. And some of those walls are total dicks too.

The concept of a serious rider having an e-bike in their quiver is antithetical to some. Yet the only people I know in my neck of the woods who own e-bikes, are serious riders. Some are THE most accomplished riders I know.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> No, the couch is a recovery tool, z-2 is definitely training.


I suppose you're right; Zone 2 is definitely a workout if a sofa and bon bons is baseline.


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## PattD (Feb 22, 2004)

Agree! Local pros are who convinced me. Hard to argue and glad I listened


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I suppose you're right; Zone 2 is definitely a workout if a sofa and bon bons is baseline.



Not a baseline for training but for sure a baseline for recovery. Recovery is absorbing training, no?


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I suppose you're right; Zone 2 is definitely a workout if a sofa and bon bons is baseline.


Zone 2 is how most REALLY fast riders get fast. A BUNCH of Z2. And a little 4, 5, and 6. But mostly Z2. It's the slow riders I know that go out and ride hard every ride.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BmanInTheD said:


> Zone 2 is how most REALLY fast riders get fast. A BUNCH of Z2. And a little 4, 5, and 6. But mostly Z2. It's the slow riders I know that go out and ride hard every ride.
> 
> Bm




It depends on where you're at in your training block and what type of event you're training for. I ride a fair amount of z-2 all the time but the percentage gets less as an event draws near.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Actually it’s more zone TURBO! That makes the fast guys FASTER! Lol!!


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> It depends on where you're at in your training block and what type of event you're training for. I ride a fair amount of z-2 all the time but the percentage gets less as an event draws near.


Yes I know that, I was just responding to his tripe about Z2 only being better than couch-sitting. But you gotta do lots of the Z2 to have the endurance for the more intense stuff later in the plan.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BmanInTheD said:


> Yes I know that, I was just responding to his tripe about Z2 only being better than couch-sitting. But you gotta do lots of the Z2 to have the endurance for the more intense stuff later in the plan.



No doubt. I grind out a ton of time in z-2 and I can tell you that during the last half hour of a 3 hour z-2 ride I am usually dreaming about couches and various other recovery aids.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

nilswalk said:


> This isn't meant to be one of those "e-bikes are better/worse because blah blah" threads, there are plenty of those if that's what you're after. It's just some interesting (and slightly surprising, to me) observations after a year of riding one.
> 
> I live at altitude in Lake Tahoe (6600'). While there are some XC-ish trails, most of the riding involves a long climb followed by a long descent. My favorite rides start at around 8000' and then drop 2000'+ with a fair bit of pedaling along the way. It's a pretty physically demanding place to ride, especially with the thinner air. Before my e-bike it was either shuttle if you could find some friends with another truck or slog it up the fire road and then back down on the singletrack. A good ride for me would be 10-15 miles with 2000' of climbing and I'd be ready for a beer.
> 
> ...



I LOVE this post. It's my exact experience on both fronts. My DH is so much better. I know how to descend fireroads now (since I do so much of them now) and ride so much. And tech trails, I do twice in a ride and I have much protection, tires and practice.

Fitness, specially strength and power drops off because of FREEDOM OF CHOICE. I ride tons now so aerobic is good but suffering is low due to human nature. All my friends experience the same. So I ride once a week with a normal MTB. I put in the pain that way and round out ther riding. I'm in the best climbing shape now in 10 years at 57 years old.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Francis Cebedo said:


> I LOVE this post. It's my exact experience on both fronts. My DH is so much better. I know how to descend fireroads now (since I do so much of them now) and ride so much. And tech trails, I do twice in a ride and I have much protection, tires and practice.
> 
> Fitness, specially strength and power drops off because of FREEDOM OF CHOICE. I ride tons now so aerobic is good but suffering is low due to human nature. All my friends experience the same. So I ride once a week with a normal MTB. I put in the pain that way and round out ther riding. I'm in the best climbing shape now in 10 years at 57 years old.


Well this thread certainly endured (I'm the OP). Getting close to 2 years later and I've gone back the other way, after getting concerned about losing too much fitness. I bought a good-climbing downcountry bike (Tallboy) and put lightweight, easy-rolling wheels and tires on it to help make XC and climbing a little more fun again and not making everything just about the DH, and I rode that at least 10:1 last year compared to my ebike. Fitness is back and actually better than ever at the ripe old age of 52.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

nilswalk said:


> Well this thread certainly endured (I'm the OP). Getting close to 2 years later and I've gone back the other way, after getting concerned about losing too much fitness. I bought a good-climbing downcountry bike (Tallboy) and put lightweight, easy-rolling wheels and tires on it to help make XC and climbing a little more fun again and not making everything just about the DH, and I rode that at least 10:1 last year compared to my ebike. Fitness is back and actually better than ever at the ripe old age of 52.


So what's your bike stable right now? My main rides are Gen3 Levo at 48 lbs and an SC Blur at 22 lbs.

Analog is good but I find that best for me is something very light and fast so I don't get bored with the long climbs and can still do the over 3000 foot climbs without taking all day.

fc


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Francis Cebedo said:


> So what's your bike stable right now? My main rides are Gen3 Levo at 48 lbs and an SC Blur at 22 lbs.


Gen2 S-works Levo coil front and rear - purely for fun, long exploring rides that might end up on boring fire roads or somewhere that I don't want to have to climb out of and shuttle bro days with other ebikers
Tallboy built as light as possible for general XC, flow trails, fitness rides
Druid w/ coil front and rear for smashing into things

Trying desperately hard to stop thinking about a Levo SL or one of the other new crop of 40-ish lb e-bikes


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

nilswalk said:


> This isn't meant to be one of those "e-bikes are better/worse because blah blah" threads, there are plenty of those if that's what you're after. It's just some interesting (and slightly surprising, to me) observations after a year of riding one.
> 
> I live at altitude in Lake Tahoe (6600'). While there are some XC-ish trails, most of the riding involves a long climb followed by a long descent. My favorite rides start at around 8000' and then drop 2000'+ with a fair bit of pedaling along the way. It's a pretty physically demanding place to ride, especially with the thinner air. Before my e-bike it was either shuttle if you could find some friends with another truck or slog it up the fire road and then back down on the singletrack. A good ride for me would be 10-15 miles with 2000' of climbing and I'd be ready for a beer.
> 
> ...


what was weight before and after 1` year?


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Stewiewin said:


> what was weight before and after 1` year?


Dunno to be honest. I find my weight in general to be more in line with my diet than it is with my exercise. I mean obviously exercise helps but I can ride my bike tons and eat like crap and gain weight, and vice versa.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

nilswalk said:


> Gen2 S-works Levo coil front and rear - purely for fun, long exploring rides that might end up on boring fire roads or somewhere that I don't want to have to climb out of and shuttle bro days with other ebikers
> Tallboy built as light as possible for general XC, flow trails, fitness rides
> Druid w/ coil front and rear for smashing into things
> 
> Trying desperately hard to stop thinking about a Levo SL or one of the other new crop of 40-ish lb e-bikes


Nice. I have a Gen2 Levo (now my Wife's) a Gen3 and many others.

The Levo SL and Kenevo SLs are light but the Levo SL has very old geometry. Kenevo SL is good but expensive. Both are very underpowered and are like your Levo in ECO MODE (slightly higher). So it's ok but you cannot keep up with other ebikers and on long rides, you have to use extenders.

What's really good now is the Orbea Rise Aluminum. 60nm but it feels like 70nm. So it's double the power of the SL and it's like a strong Trail Mode of the Levo. It is the most incredible ebike I've ridden since it's cheap and it has big range if you're willing to help and it's fast up and down H15 is the one.

fc


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## ReXTless (Feb 23, 2007)

Francis Cebedo said:


> What's really good now is the Orbea Rise Aluminum. 60nm but it feels like 70nm. So it's double the power of the SL and it's like a strong Trail Mode of the Levo. It is the most incredible ebike I've ridden since it's cheap and it has big range if you're willing to help and it's fast up and down H15 is the one.
> 
> fc


FC - I've been looking to get a new Rise H15, but have started to second guess in favor of a Levo 3. Do you feel the extra weight on the H15 from the larger battery and aluminum frame (compared to the carbon Rise) puts the bike in "no man's land"? Meaning, the H15 isn't really a superlight, but also not full fat. Does that translate to the H15 as the best of both worlds, or is it a weird compromise that makes it worse than either a true superlight or full fat?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Levo 3 rocks, best emtb I’ve owned.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

ReXTless said:


> FC - I've been looking to get a new Rise H15, but have started to second guess in favor of a Levo 3. Do you feel the extra weight on the H15 from the larger battery and aluminum frame (compared to the carbon Rise) puts the bike in "no man's land"? Meaning, the H15 isn't really a superlight, but also not full fat. Does that translate to the H15 as the best of both worlds, or is it a weird compromise that makes it worse than either a true superlight or full fat?


Have no fear, the H15 is a great value and it is A++. I finishing up my review on it.

What I have is an H10 and it weighs 43.5 lbs. I put carbon wheels and other tricks and got it down to 41.5 lbs.

I'm 150 lbs right now and producing good power on my own. I think this bike is for someone who has good power to weight and wants to work.

The power of the bike is insanely good. I had to check that it wasn't producing 85nm because it feels really strong to me on Boost. The torque comes in really strong in the beginning and allows the rider to carry momentum on most hills. The wave of support really works and when you go from Turbo to Trail, it'll gradually taper off to allow you to keep speed and not hit a 'wall'.

Range for me is impressive. I'm climbing 6000 feet on mostly Trail mode, some Boost. These are numbers I see on my Gen3 Levo and 720wh Heckler. And the key is I'm climbing fast with the group. I'm not a boat anchor like with the Levo SL which has so little power and initial torque support. I think the Shimano EP8 motor is best when just humming along at 80% capacity. It is sooo quiet and doesn't get hot. We have 540wh batteries and no extenders. And I think the Orbea Rise really rewards the rider who wants to contribute good leg power. Bike climbs so fast!

Suspension is supple and geometry is dialed. Seat angle is steeeep so cockpit may feel small to some. There are 4 of us now with Orbea Rise Hydros and we're all crazy impressed, keeping up or leading the pack of full-powered bikes.

Gen 3 Levo... still the best but man, that motor gets noisy now after 1000+ miles. And oh so expensive. I had a 36 lb Levo SL and got it down to 34 lbs. It just never rode that well. Motor is loud and unsupportive.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Gutch said:


> Levo 3 rocks, best emtb I’ve owned.


It is perhaps the best riding emtb today. Probably one of the best riding bikes Specy has created.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Francis Cebedo said:


> It is perhaps the best riding emtb today. Probably one of the best riding bikes Specy has created.


Agreed, I did not realize the motor gets more noisy with mileage. I don’t have as many miles as you as I’m somewhat limited when I can ride. Interesting.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Gutch said:


> Agreed, I did not realize the motor gets more noisy with mileage. I don’t have as many miles as you as I’m somewhat limited when I can ride. Interesting.


What happens on an older Gen3 Levo is this. It's quiet on all power levels, including Turbo. Then you do a 1000 foot hill on mostly Turbo. The motor will then produce a 'whine' or a 'roar' on Turbo or high load conditions until it cools off.

I've observed it on 4 different Gen 3s and I'll make video recordings to better explain. I have not heard of a Gen 3 Levo motor failure in my circle.

fc


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Francis Cebedo said:


> What happens on an older Gen3 Levo is this. It's quiet on all power levels, including Turbo. Then you do a 1000 foot hill on mostly Turbo. The motor will then produce a 'whine' or a 'roar' on Turbo or high load conditions until it cools off.
> 
> I've observed it on 4 different Gen 3s and I'll make video recordings to better explain. I have not heard of a Gen 3 Levo motor failure in my circle.
> 
> fc


Thank you for that information. Mines been flawless thus far.


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## n8ofire (Jan 14, 2004)

I used to care a lot about fitness, now I just want to have fun. The ebike is just way more fun, and I ride a LOT more!


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