# Alligator Serration Rotors, what is the advantage of the Ti Nitrite Coated version?



## aussie_bushrider (Jul 6, 2006)

Whats the advantage of the Ti Ni coated rotors?
Do they weight the same as the non-coated rotors?
I'm thinking of getting these in the 203mm size for a light weight DH build.

The difference in cost is small.
I wouldn't mind the gold rotors even if there is no advantage in terms of weight or performance. Is there any likely disadvantage with the Ti coating?

http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/17...Wind-Cutter-Titanium-Nitrite-Coated-Rotor.htm
http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/16...tm?avad=2044_0_cl_0_Alligator Serrated Rotors


----------



## Gary H (Dec 16, 2006)

TiNi is also used on the higher end RC car shock shafts to reduce friction....


----------



## bobbyOCR (Feb 11, 2007)

It makes your rotors look pretty and not work as well. Sure your pads may last longer but you want power on a DH bike.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*no advantage...*

the coated versions don't have any advantage but some think they look cool (not me).
but the coating wears pretty fast where the pads make contact so there's really no downside in braking performance.

the real advantage of these wind-cutter rotors is that they are much lighter than standard rotors while still offering best power. they resist fading much better. you might need sintered pads. they seem to work best on these rotors. i can highly recommend EBC gold pads. awesome power.


----------



## bobbyOCR (Feb 11, 2007)

yeah great. Do they come in 140?


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

They do... and nino will sell them to you shortly.


----------



## chucko58 (Aug 4, 2006)

mountainforce said:


> Ti Ni coating is a low friction coating found on your Titanium pedal spindles to reduce friction which reduces wear.


No, TiN (the proper chemical formula) is a very *hard* coating meant to resist abrasive wear. That's why it's used on shock shafts and the like.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_nitride


----------



## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> They do... and nino will sell them to you shortly.


...and then deeeight will whine about it.


----------



## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

Nino, what's the status on the rotors you've been working on?


----------



## Hubert (Dec 22, 2004)

140mm version should reach Nino in about 2 - 3 weeks.

(according to Nino)


----------



## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

They weight within grams of my Marta 160/180.. why not just get Maguras? don't really see the advantage of the alligators ...


----------



## bobbyOCR (Feb 11, 2007)

Davide said:


> They weight within grams of my Marta 160/180.. why not just get Maguras? don't really see the advantage of the alligators ...


Stans rotors are within grams of your rotors, why not get yours?

This is about saving weight. 20g per rotor is massive (OK aybe not 20, but your marta rotors aren't that light)


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*weights...*



Davide said:


> They weight within grams of my Marta 160/180.. why not just get Maguras? don't really see the advantage of the alligators ...


Marta SL rotors are well known for having bad fading problems. the Alligator rotors simply stop that while still offering perfect power. do a comparison with other rotor weights below and you'll see the serrated Alligators are the lightest steel rotors.

size............................................. 160 / 180 / 203mm
ALLIGATOR Wind-Cutter.................92 / 115 / 151g

AVID Ultimate 2007.......................106 / 146
AVID Polygon...............................115 / 164 / 223g
AVID Mechanical..........................117
AVID Clean Sweep.......................118 / 166
FORMULA Oro.............................110 / 135
FORMULA B4..............................110 / 148
HOPE Floating:.............................92 / 146 / 168g
HOPE Mini 2007(shark-design)......122
HOPE Mini...................................108 / 125
HOPE..........................................137 / 155
HAYES........................................110
MAGURA Marta SL (Wave)............107 / 128
MAGURA Louise (Wave)................134 / 156 / 234g (203mm Ventidisc)
MAGURA Julie..............................153 / 189
SHIMANO XTR 07.........................135 / 162
SHIMANO XTR (alt).......................118 / 139
SHIMANO XT................................126 / 150 / 198g


----------



## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

The alligators are well-known now for fading issues.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> The alligators are well-known now for fading issues.


wrong - only if you have non matching pads!
i have found the EBC Gold to match these discs perfect while offering great power and durability.


----------



## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> The alligators are well-known now for fading issues.


Mine fade badly, but there are not any huge hills around here so I can live with it.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Baulz said:


> Mine fade badly, but there are not any huge hills around here so I can live with it.


you might have trapped air in your brakelines, old brakefluid or simply wrong pads.


----------



## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

nino said:


> Marta SL rotors are well known for having bad fading problems. the Alligator rotors simply stop that while still offering perfect power. do a comparison with other rotor weights below and you'll see the serrated Alligators are the lightest steel rotors.


I am not sure about this "well known bad fading problem"  : I have been using the Marta for 3 years on quite aggressive 5-5.5" travel all mountain bikes (Turner 5-spot and now the wonderful Ibis Mojo) and I never had any problem with fading brakes ... the weight saving in respect ot the Marta (on my scale lighter then 128) seems fairly irrelevant and if one has to start experimenting with different pads to make the coated alligators work ... :madman: ... having said that ... maybe I get a pair of the non-coated ones!


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Davide said:


> I am not sure about this "well known bad fading problem"  : I have been using the Marta for 3 years on quite aggressive 5-5.5" travel all mountain bikes (Turner 5-spot and now the wonderful Ibis Mojo) and I never had any problem with fading brakes ... the weight saving in respect ot the Marta (on my scale lighter then 128) seems fairly irrelevant and if one has to start experimenting with different pads to make the coated alligators work ... :madman: ... having said that ... maybe I get a pair of the non-coated ones!


the Marta SL is well known for BAD overheating issues. maybe you are not doing long enough downhills or you are a capable rider 

anyway - coated or not does not affect pad choice since the coating is gone very fast. as already mentioned i had very good results using sintered EBC gold pads.


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

C'mon.... everyone knows he's gonna say whatever rotor he's about to be selling doesn't have fading issues while also saying the competitors rotors do. This is classic nino afterall to pump up his own stuff and put down the rest.


----------



## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

nino said:


> the Marta SL is well known for BAD overheating issues. maybe you are not doing long enough downhills or you are a capable rider
> 
> anyway - coated or not does not affect pad choice since the coating is gone very fast. as already mentioned i had very good results using sintered EBC gold pads.


The one thing that seems important with Martas is to stick with organic pads, metallic or semi-metallic are supposed to be a problem because of the extra heat they generate ... anyway, given the price I just ordered a pair each of 180/160 Alligator + Alligator Organic pads and Galfer Green ... oh the fun of experimenting :ihih: :cryin:

PS I am 150 (68Kg) that might explain why the Martas work perfectly nicely and somewhat more then that


----------



## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

DeeEight- i think You have 100% right

I'm running martas sl disc 180mm in the front for 2,5 years now, and have newer overheated or having fadding problems.
I have to mensiond that I'm riding often in the hills over 1000meters soo I thing it's good test for these brakes.
Also I think that these aligator rotors have too less braking surface- yes they probably will not overheat but they don't have such power as for eg hope floating mini pro in the same weight


----------



## bobbyOCR (Feb 11, 2007)

They're light rotors FFS. You buy a lighter part and normally expect to sacrifice something, whether it be money or performance. These look good. I'd be up for a 140/160 set if the price is right.


----------



## elephant (Mar 21, 2006)

What about with BB7s? I am trying to find a few places to save weight on a new build and 160/140 with these rotors would save a little weight.

Do mechanicals even suffer fade? Can I get the recommended pads to go with these rotors for the BB7s?


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

All disc brakes suffer from fade. Its the heat from the friction causing the parts to overheat. Mechanicals can melt the pads, and warp the rotors. Hydraulics tend to boil the fluids first before the other things happen. It all depends on what type of pads are being used and what material the rotor is. The heat has to go someplace.


----------



## pastajet (May 26, 2006)

I used the Alligator on several brakes and they were just fine, they worked much better then the XT rotors, but I could never get them to work on my Marta SL, they would always chatter, I tried every trick in the book and gave up and stayed with the Magura rotors, no problems with the Maguras and I have done some wicked steep stuff and I love to ride the brakes, I am a brake hog


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*Avid Juicy carbons...*



mountainforce said:


> DeeEight
> 
> Jee wizz man - im i the only one fed up of listening to you whine at Nino? Give it a break FFS everthing he posts your there moaning about it.
> 
> ...


i also have the Avid Juicy carbons and mine suffered BADLY from "fading" when new, even before i cut the hoses so they came like assembled by the factory. front AND rear as well !!! i had the brakepoint wander and finally loosing the brakes almost completely....only after cutting the hoses to proper lenght and doing a correct bleeding job these brakes workes as they should! but i likes the power only with bigger 180 rotor in the front. but it was the EBC Gold pads that made all the difference - you can't compare them anymore to the same brakes with stock pads....these EBC gold really enhance dry and wet power by a dramatic amount. so much i was able to go down in rotor size front and rear. from 180/160 to actual 160/140. the EBC Gold really perfrom great on these Alligator rotors.

i never touched the discs since switching pads....and i'm riding almost daily from mud to freezing temperatures at the moment.


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

To add to the heat induced brake fade, closed master cylinder hydraulic systems suffer from it more than open master cylinder systems do. Hayes brakes have for most of their existence been closed designs and thus have had more heat issues than say, shimano and magura which use open designs. The difference for the layman is that in a closed system, the fluid volume in the brake is fixed and when the fluid boils from heat the bubbles that develop get trapped in the lines and this is where the fade comes in. With an open system, there's room for gas expansion in the top of the master cylinder to allow for fluid boiling and as that happens, extra fluid flows down into the line to replace the bubbles coming out of it, so you don't have a fading issue as soon. Pretty much ALL cars and motorcycles with disc brakes use open master cylinders.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

mountainforce said:


> Nino
> 
> You have Juicy Ultimates - there is also a brake called the Juicy carbon which is a bit heavier and a bit more powerfull.
> 
> I have bleed the brakes since and fitted some semi organic pads instead of the sintered ones which has improved braking bite so hopefully they will be ok. Failing that i'll try EBC Golds and if that doesnt work move to Hope floaters.


hmm-where do you take it that the Carbons have more power?


----------



## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

mountainforce said:


> Nino
> 
> You have Juicy Ultimates - there is also a brake called the Juicy carbon which is a bit heavier and a bit more powerfull.


Huh?

They are the same system! Same power!


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

They're not, as explained... the Juicy Carbons have different calipers and larger rotors.


----------



## bobbyOCR (Feb 11, 2007)

I've actually seen DH riders rockin ultimate levers and Code calipers (sam hill, I'm pretty sure). I wouldn't use the ultimate caliper for DH, but then again, they are looking for edges.


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Same lever BLADES but the lever bodies are different as well... the ultimates use magnesium instead of the aluminium of the carbons. The ultimates also have a 1-piece forged caliper body. The magnesium lever body's are an important difference because aluminium conducts heat better (so heat in the fluid that reaches the master cylinder will conduct out faster on the carbons than the ultimates).


----------



## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> To add to the heat induced brake fade, closed master cylinder hydraulic systems suffer from it more than open master cylinder systems do. Hayes brakes have for most of their existence been closed designs and thus have had more heat issues than say, shimano and magura which use open designs. The difference for the layman is that in a closed system, the fluid volume in the brake is fixed and when the fluid boils from heat the bubbles that develop get trapped in the lines and this is where the fade comes in. With an open system, there's room for gas expansion in the top of the master cylinder to allow for fluid boiling and as that happens, extra fluid flows down into the line to replace the bubbles coming out of it, so you don't have a fading issue as soon. Pretty much ALL cars and motorcycles with disc brakes use open master cylinders.


A few things that need clarification here:

Hayes have always been open system, all the way back to the Hayes Mag from ca 1998 or so.

BRAKE FADE is when all the organic matter evaporates out of the surface of the brake pad, leaving only a very slick layer of carbon. The result is that even though the brake has a nice, firm lever feel, there's just no brake power. A few hard stoppings with water on the pads will wear away the carbon layer. This is a problem with small discs and organic brake pads. Replace the pads with metal pads (sintered pads), and the fading will go away.

But: Sintered metal pads transfer a lot more heat through the brake pad and into the fluid, causing BOILING. When this happens, you'll completely loose the brake pressure, your lever will simply go all the way to the handlebar witout engaging the brakes. When this happens, pump the lever quickly, and hold on to the brakes until you have come to a complete stopp. Cool the brakes down with water before continuing. Larger or more massive discs will resolve this problem, and also replacing old brake fluid with new. The best brakes on the marked use ceramic pistons to insulate the fluid from the heat. Formula have used this for years, and can tolerate a LOT of heat witout boling.

So, having to replace standard organic pads with sintered metal pads will indeed remove fading problems with the Alligator discs, but might cause boling problems instead.

Ole.


----------



## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

These rotors suckazz... They destroy pads, and have poor stopping power, I went back to my Formula Wavy style rotors, much better!


----------



## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

Installed my Alligator's last night. 180mm was 116g and the 160mm was 91g.

Haven't ridden them yet. Will be attempting with stock Juicy Ultimate pads.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Padre said:


> Installed my Alligator's last night. 180mm was 116g and the 160mm was 91g.
> 
> Haven't ridden them yet. Will be attempting with stock Juicy Ultimate pads.


that's exactly what i have been using as well. but switching to EBC gold pads will offer about 1/4-1/3rd more power. at least what my impression was. insane!


----------



## xy9ine (Feb 2, 2005)

bobbyOCR said:


> I've actually seen DH riders rockin ultimate levers and Code calipers (sam hill, I'm pretty sure). I wouldn't use the ultimate caliper for DH, but then again, they are looking for edges.


 peatty was running full ultimates @ the champery wc dh, which gave me the incentive to give them a try. i'm using the 203 alligators as well, and they've been surprisingly good as a dh brake (esp considering the silly light weight), though i've had the stock pads fade at whistler - since replaced with galfers which have been fine.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*Dh*



xy9ine said:


> peatty was running full ultimates @ the champery wc dh, which gave me the incentive to give them a try. i'm using the 203 alligators as well, and they've been surprisingly good as a dh brake (esp considering the silly light weight), though i've had the stock pads fade at whistler - since replaced with galfers which have been fine.


i have several DH riders using these Alligator discs with great results. MUCH less fading than with standard discs while offering the sme if not better braking power....but people here will tell you otherwise

anyway - tese rotors perform great but it might be you need a different pad than you had on your brake before and defintely people need to realize that you need NEW pads on a new dic otherwise it doesn't match the already "worn" surface and therefore power for sure will be less than what you had with your old setup where all parts matched perfectly.


----------



## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

nino said:


> MUCH less fading than with standard discs while offering the sme if not better braking power....but people here will tell you otherwise


I still disagree about the fading, and I used mine with new pads.

But I am not trying to sell the rotors, so apparently my comments are not valid.


----------



## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

nino said:


> i have several DH riders using these Alligator discs with great results. MUCH less fading than with standard discs while offering the sme if not better braking power....but people here will tell you otherwise
> 
> anyway - tese rotors perform great but it might be you need a different pad than you had on your brake before and defintely people need to realize that *you need NEW pads on a new dic otherwise it doesn't match the already "worn" surface and therefore power for sure will be less than what you had with your old setup where all parts matched perfectly.*


Then you need new pads everytime you remove the wheel and replace it because it never lines up exactly, but fractions of a mm. Everytime you put on a new rotor, etc. The point is if you ride your bike, you simply wear old pads and rotors together eventually. This explanation for the poor performance is not valid. Someone who's particular could file or lightly sand the surface of the pads, not buy new ones. Regardless, ride the bike and use the brakes, which includes several loops around the block dragging them will bed the pads in.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> Then you need new pads everytime you remove the wheel and replace it because it never lines up exactly, but fractions of a mm. Everytime you put on a new rotor, etc. The point is if you ride your bike, you simply wear old pads and rotors together eventually. This explanation for the poor performance is not valid. Someone who's particular could file or lightly sand the surface of the pads, not buy new ones. Regardless, ride the bike and use the brakes, which includes several loops around the block dragging them will bed the pads in.


correct - but you know there's people out there who will install these rotors and ride around the block telling you they are weaker just because they didn't take into account that pads and rotors have to align...that you need to break them in so the pads are matching the surface of the rotor. i had it happen many,many times that guys would say "these rotors are weaker than the old ones i had" only to get back later saying how superb the power was once pads wore or once they installed new pads.


----------



## xcracer87 (Dec 30, 2005)

Padre said:


> Installed my Alligator's last night. 180mm was 116g and the 160mm was 91g.
> 
> Haven't ridden them yet. Will be attempting with stock Juicy Ultimate pads.


Please keep us posted. Im interested using these rotors on my Elixir CR 160's....


----------



## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

a customer just bought a set and review was that brand new they didn't stop all that well, the TiNi coating wore of quickly, after the coating wore off he said they were WAY better than his XT centerlocks


----------



## longcat (Apr 24, 2008)

chucko58 said:


> No, TiN (the proper chemical formula) is a very *hard* coating meant to resist abrasive wear. That's why it's used on shock shafts and the like.
> 
> See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_nitride


tinitride both reduce friction and resists abrasive and adhesive wear 

totally worthless on a rotor imo since you actually want friction.

I can see a new trend coming: PTFE pads and rotors polished to optical flats..


----------



## xjohnnyx (Mar 19, 2004)

How are the rotors? I am running Magura Marta Sl 160mm in gold...are the Alligator rotors better than the Magura rotors? Which pads to run with these tinitride rotors? Nino says EBC golds..but I only have found the greens...are the Alligator Ceramic Sintered better? Help!


----------



## dhpete93 (May 22, 2008)

I had the Alligator rotors for a while last year, they were far from impressive. They heated up extremely fast due to them having so little material, but they also cooled really fast. There isn't really much else to say, I ended up bending them and getting Hope alu rotors.

Anyway, I got a new set of brakes and couldn't run the Hope rotors, so now I'm using Ashima Airotors, which are lighter by quite some, heat up slower, lose heat faster and perform much better. Some of this feel could be due to the better brakes, but there definitely is a feel difference between the rotors, the Ashima tend not to 'pulse' as much too.


----------



## xjohnnyx (Mar 19, 2004)

Where do you purchase the Ashima rotors and pads?


----------



## dhpete93 (May 22, 2008)

I got them through the shop I work at. If you're in the UK nearly all bike shops should be able to get them in from Zyro. But for the US/Canada I'm of no help, sorry.


----------



## xjohnnyx (Mar 19, 2004)

*New Alligator Titanium Nitride Rotors*

Just installed these and love em. The gold wears off rather quickly but otherwise...great rotor. 91g. Using Magura 5.1 performance pads and they are quiet and modulate well.


----------



## Bender (Jan 12, 2004)

xjohnnyx they still look good with half the gold!


----------



## mtb-fire/medic (Dec 6, 2011)

nino said:


> the coated versions don't have any advantage but some think they look cool (not me).
> but the coating wears pretty fast where the pads make contact so there's really no downside in braking performance.
> 
> the real advantage of these wind-cutter rotors is that they are much lighter than standard rotors while still offering best power. they resist fading much better. you might need sintered pads. they seem to work best on these rotors. i can highly recommend EBC gold pads. awesome power.


My bike is only a few months old and I replaced the rotors with the titanium coated ones, they are not stopping all... is it the pads


----------



## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

mtb-fire/medic said:


> My bike is only a few months old and I replaced the rotors with the titanium coated ones, they are not stopping all... is it the pads


What pads do you have? Did you install new sintered pads along with your new serrated rotors? I only have one of the Ti coated ones (140mm rear), but found it needed a little bit of time to break in properly. After that, it's the same as the non-Ti coated rotors.


----------



## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

Like Bruce mentioned, they take a little time to brake in. Should start with new pads.Between two bikes I have the 140, 160, 180, On the rear I can use just about any type of brake pad & they work great.On the front however even with the 180 I found I needed to run EBC Gold sintered pads to get descent braking power.


----------



## mtb-fire/medic (Dec 6, 2011)

thanks guys, i will take it all in...


----------

