# Low speed torque and control going slow question



## dugt (May 26, 2012)

I'm wondering if an EMTB would help me in this situation. For example, when on a narrow single track and going very slow around a sharp corner and then start going up hill. If you start pedalling panic hard to get up the hill and keep from falling over, does the bike lunge forward or creep at first or lag or is it predictable and controllable and much easier on an ebike?


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## macduff (Sep 4, 2012)

Depends on motor setting. Current Bosch seem to come with 4 (5 if u count off) assist levels. Eco is the lowest and feels most analogue (as off feels like pedalling through a tar pit!) . Tour(+?) gives a bit more boost at 1st crank but feels Like it levels off on incline so your Legs only feel 10years younger. EMTB mode give more even assist with a bit more assist on hill starts, maybe feels like I’m 20years younger & turbo is like I’m 18 again. Note on euro/uk legal emtbs they all stop boost at ~16mph so if sprinting on flat/between turns it can feel like you’ve hit that tarp pit (ok on downhill but it will be lung not motor power over the assist speed limit) . Whilst I ride my eMTB on some very tight twisty single track it’s not somewhere they shine as the weight makes them harder to handle so tend to only see same Strava times as my analog bike & probably making up time on any straights or uphills where I’d be max HR zone on the analog. P.S. I’m a month into EMTB ownership on a Mondi Crafty RR after 7 years wearing out an ibis HD3.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

macduff said:


> Depends on motor setting. Current Bosch seem to come with 4 (5 if u count off) assist levels. Eco is the lowest and feels most analogue (as off feels like pedalling through a tar pit!) . Tour(+?) gives a bit more boost at 1st crank but feels Like it levels off on incline so your Legs only feel 10years younger. EMTB mode give more even assist with a bit more assist on hill starts, maybe feels like I’m 20years younger & turbo is like I’m 18 again. Note on euro/uk legal emtbs they all stop boost at ~16mph so if sprinting on flat/between turns it can feel like you’ve hit that tarp pit (ok on downhill but it will be lung not motor power over the assist speed limit) . Whilst I ride my eMTB on some very tight twisty single track it’s not somewhere they shine as the weight makes them harder to handle so tend to only see same Strava times as my analog bike & probably making up time on any straights or uphills where I’d be max HR zone on the analog. P.S. I’m a month into EMTB ownership on a Mondi Crafty RR after 7 years wearing out an ibis HD3.


Macduff - great feedback and I like how you bought an EMTB and started riding it with a positive attitude looking forward. Thanks.


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## dugt (May 26, 2012)

macduff said:


> Depends on motor setting. Current Bosch seem to come with 4 (5 if u count off) assist levels. Eco is the lowest and feels most analogue (as off feels like pedalling through a tar pit!) . Tour(+?) gives a bit more boost at 1st crank but feels Like it levels off on incline so your Legs only feel 10years younger. EMTB mode give more even assist with a bit more assist on hill starts, maybe feels like I’m 20years younger & turbo is like I’m 18 again. Note on euro/uk legal emtbs they all stop boost at ~16mph so if sprinting on flat/between turns it can feel like you’ve hit that tarp pit (ok on downhill but it will be lung not motor power over the assist speed limit) . Whilst I ride my eMTB on some very tight twisty single track it’s not somewhere they shine as the weight makes them harder to handle so tend to only see same Strava times as my analog bike & probably making up time on any straights or uphills where I’d be max HR zone on the analog. P.S. I’m a month into EMTB ownership on a Mondi Crafty RR after 7 years wearing out an ibis HD3.


Thank you for your excellent reply. 

I should have just asked, "How much better are ebikes at starting on a hill from a dead stop" but you answered that question well. It sounds like it is best to set it to a higher assist level before starting on a hill and then an EMTB will definitely be better than an analog bike.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

dugt said:


> Thank you for your excellent reply.
> 
> I should have just asked, "How much better are ebikes at starting on a hill from a dead stop" but you answered that question well. It sounds like it is best to set it to a higher assist level before starting on a hill and then an EMTB will definitely be better than an analog bike.


‘Pedal assist - torque sensor’ emtbs are known to feel natural so it comes back to rider skills. Emtbs are not better than analog, they are different that is all. Both are fun for sure 😎


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Setting matter alot. Boost is usually too much and almost all ebikers have some over run. It's easy to fine tune my specialized and getting used to how it deliveres the power is important too.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

The short answer is it takes some re-training your brain. No matter what, there's always a little delay between when you apply pressure to the pedals and the power kicks in (and when you remove pressure and the power stops). Once you figure it out and learn how to predict it and make use of it, it's really great. But there's a learning curve in getting use to how the motor kicks in that can catch you out at first.


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## macduff (Sep 4, 2012)

dugt said:


> Thank you for your excellent reply.
> 
> I should have just asked, "How much better are ebikes at starting on a hill from a dead stop" but you answered that question well. It sounds like it is best to set it to a higher assist level before starting on a hill and then an EMTB will definitely be better than an analog bike.


I’d probably say it’s the opposite, ie least assistance to get you moving as too much rapid torque could ping you off the trail if it’s gnarly. But that will likely be eMTB mode from my ltd hill climbs on mine which has involved a few hill starts though if it’s around 30% incline you may have to push /walk assist it up.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

It’s definitely something you need to get use to. I was following up a new ebiker maybe a month on his new ebike, but not new to mtb riding. He was having a lot of issues getting around the tighter single track uphills. To me, his cadence seemed too low, like around 80rpm or lower. 

For me, I believe most motors are at their best around 85 to 95 cadence and sitting down. So when I see a tech turn that’s sharp, I’ll down shift a gear or 2 so I can keep that cadence spinning fast. I’m usually around 90 to 95 cadence. 


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

With a torque sensing motor, you can use low cadence

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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

rod9301 said:


> With a torque sensing motor, you can use low cadence
> 
> Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


Plus you can pause, use a bit of finesse, ratchet to avoid pedal strikes etc. Whole new ball game


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## dugt (May 26, 2012)

Jack7782 said:


> Plus you can pause, use a bit of finesse, ratchet to avoid pedal strikes etc. Whole new ball game


That is good news to me. So, if you stop pedaling for a moment, the motor keeps moving the bike. I love it!


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## dugt (May 26, 2012)

oops


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

Your answer depends on an eMTB with a torque sense motor or cadence sensing motor. With torque sensing you have to be putting some torque on the pedals before it applies power proportional to your pedaling so it can be quite smooth. But a cadence sense system it just needs to know the pedals are rotating to deliver power. If you were in the highest assist and just turn the pedals lightly it can take off abruptly.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

eBike forward lurch is REAL: always(!) check assist mode, before turning the cranks. Drop the saddle slightly on slow, technical climbs and conscientiously monitor gear selection with appropriate assist level. 

I knew a guy who did not wear padded Chamois and his Turbo Levo SL in Turbo shot like a rocket, before he could mount the saddle. The lurching bike's saddle nose caught his jewels and tore it, requiring 8 stitches. It was an embarrassing, bloody mess. 

I was descending, when my thumb raised the saddle accidentally and the bike kept lurching forward... straight into a huge boulder. The stall threw me upside-down into a rocky gully, with one foot still clipped in. I injured my tailbone and elbow. 

I still love my 2021 Trek Rail 9.8 GX....


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## Danhikeski (Jun 30, 2021)

The lurching issue sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen and not something “we” should have to learn. Im sure a few are old enough to remember Audi’s issue in the ‘80’s…. It’s all software controlling this, couldn’t there be a soft start mode? Now in saying this, it’s not like the user has a clutch, brake and throttle to deal with like a gas powered motorcycle, I could see how this lurch could be beneficial on an incline.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Cayenne_Pepa said:


> eBike forward lurch is REAL: always(!) check assist mode, before turning the cranks. Drop the saddle slightly on slow, technical climbs and conscientiously monitor gear selection with appropriate assist level.
> 
> I knew a guy who did not wear padded Chamois and his Turbo Levo SL in Turbo shot like a rocket, before he could mount the saddle. The lurching bike's saddle nose caught his jewels and tore it, requiring 8 stitches. It was an embarrassing, bloody mess.
> 
> ...





Danhikeski said:


> I could see how this lurch could be beneficial on an incline.


I have no experience with Levo, but Bosch gen4 ‘tunes’ the torque sensor to add boost in these situations - helpful for slow tech climbs


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Is the levo motor not torque sensing? 

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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

You can also try gliding the brakes so you’re pushing against resistance, it’s a muni tool 👍


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## dugt (May 26, 2012)

Danhikeski said:


> The lurching issue sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen and not something “we” should have to learn. Im sure a few are old enough to remember Audi’s issue in the ‘80’s…. It’s all software controlling this, couldn’t there be a soft start mode? Now in saying this, it’s not like the user has a clutch, brake and throttle to deal with like a gas powered motorcycle, I could see how this lurch could be beneficial on an incline.


The Audi issue was caused by people panic stomping on the accelerator pedal when they thought they were panic stomping on the brake pedal. 

With Levo's, my Trek, and probably other emtb's, the lurch amount can be adjusted. My Trek Fuel has a Pedal Response adjustment that goes from Quick to Gradual and Quick doesn't seem startlingly quick to me. Also you can adjust the assist level from 0% to 200% for each of the three assist level settings. If the assist level was set to 200% and the pedal response was set to quick, that could be a problem and that would be a mistake, especially for someone new to ebikes.


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

When I got my rail 7 ,I had trouble with the lurch ,if I was starting on an uphill or if was transitioning to something more tech. What worked for me was to approach the tech with a low cadence and as I was in it ,increase the cadence as needed. For uphills that just took time to learn how to apply pedal pressure so I didn't get the surge.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Some people have mentioned torque sensing Vs. cadence sensing motors. I'm 70, climbing in the Wasatch and tend to have a lower cadence. I'd like a set up that adds torque to help me on long climbs. I don't think I want to get up the climb that much faster, I'd just like to keep my HR at a lower level. I'm assuming that means a torque sensing set up would be better for me. I thought all Emtbs sensed torque, but are there some that would be better for my application that others?
I'm looking at lighter bikes, such as Orbea and the Trek Exe.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

MSU Alum said:


> Some people have mentioned torque sensing Vs. cadence sensing motors. I'm 70, climbing in the Wasatch and tend to have a lower cadence. I'd like a set up that adds torque to help me on long climbs.


Do you do long climbs on gravel forest service roads? Or do you ride UP the trails, for fun, more technical? I ask because you might also want to look at a few full power bikes too. (I am 69 so I can relate to you brother)


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Jack7782 said:


> Do you do long climbs on gravel forest service roads? Or do you ride UP the trails, for fun, more technical? I ask because you might also want to look at a few full power bikes too. (I am 69 so I can relate to you brother)


Thanks! Yeah, I expect you get it.
I ride singletrack up. Some of it can be technical, but most of the rides tend to be "grunt climbs". I'm not completely opposed to a full power bike, though I'd like to keep the weight down to retain the mountain bike feel. A big ride for me currently is maybe 3 hours, with about 3000' of climbing and 20+ miles. I expect that eliminates the Trek Exe unless I get the extended range battery. I'm not an aggressive downhiller. I'm currently on a Trance Advanced 29 with 150/115 travel and that's enough for my downhill needs. I mostly enjoy getting out and like climbing and at this point I think I'd like to keep my HR down in the fat burning - aerobic range. So, my focus is easier, not faster, which could extend whatever battery life I have, I suppose.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Yeah, If I were you and you were me, budget permitting . . .


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Jack7782 said:


> Yeah, If I were you and you were me, budget permitting . . .
> View attachment 2015660


I'm worth it.

It's purty!
Doing a little more research, I notice the lower pivot on this, the Orbea and the Trek seems to be of a single pivot design - just in terms of how shock is absorbed in an arc. I'm not sure that matters for descending, but there is some pretty techy climbing that I do, and I really love my Maestro suspension for those climb segments. I was just looking at the Pivot Shuttle and if money were no object, I might go crazy on it just for that rear suspension design. Also, though I don't like the weight of the Giants, I do love the rear suspension design on those as well.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

MSU Alum, I think the big difference between the lightweights like the Orbea is what experience you want. For me I just want a tailwind not a motorcycle. I have plenty of power with my rise. But I want the bike to feel like an MTB I am pedaling. I have another heavy class 3 with a throttle I use as a poor mans ATV on rough mining roads. It is very powerful but I would never want it for MTB singletrack. 
You pays your money and makes your choices.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

mike_kelly said:


> MSU Alum, I think the big difference between the lightweights like the Orbea is what experience you want. For me I just want a tailwind not a motorcycle. I have plenty of power with my rise. But I want the bike to feel like an MTB I am pedaling. I have another heavy class 3 with a throttle I use as a poor mans ATV on rough mining roads. It is very powerful but I would never want it for MTB singletrack.
> You pays your money and makes your choices.


Yeah, I didn't mention it, but I also want to continue biking with my 32-year-old son who is on a Ripmo. I just need to be "fast enough". I probably put out 30-35 Nm of torque on my own, so if I can get 20 from my old legs + 30 from a motor, I'll be happy and ahead of the game.
I for sure can't keep up on the descent with him, but here in Utah, a ride is usually 3000' of climbing followed by 3000' of descending. I don't care if he waits at the bottom, but it rankles me when he has to wait at the top!


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

Well I would certainly recommend a lightweight. My Rise is an EP8 motor capabile of 85nm but locked down for longer ride time to 65nm. I always have enough power. Being able to throw the bike around on singletrack is important to me. So definitely try a few options.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

I've been in your scenario a few times in the past. Essentially I will g-out in a corner and go straight into a mini climb. A lot of those scenarios require enough momentum to roll up part of the hill and start pedaling while being in the correct gear that works for me. It's kind of similar to a g-out in a corner and going into a jump. You need enough momentum to clear the jump but instead, you want to use that momentum to start your ascent.

With my Specialized Turbo Levo, I actually tried some custom Mission Control settings that were recommended in a YouTube video. The settings work pretty good! Not only do I have a bit more battery power, I can also use more of my legs to pedal and climb. With Mission Control, you can set how the motor reacts to rider input. In the past with max power, the bike would take off with a half revolution of the crank. With some of my MC changes, it's a bit more subtle when I crank and ride away at full power. It doesn't lurch as bad as before.


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## levity (Oct 31, 2011)

@MSU Alum – Based on your remarks above I think you’d be fine on an eMTB-lite bike. The ~300W boost available on these bikes is plenty unless you want the more “moto-like” experience of a full power ~700W ebike. I’ve had a Levo, a Levo SL and now a Fuel EXe. I prefer the experience of the less powerful, lighter bikes for technical riding - you just have to anticipate things and shift down more like you would on an regular bike. I’d only choose the full Levo for rides with extended climbing on fire roads, and even then the lower power bikes will get you there pretty quickly.

The Fuel EXe you mention should handle 20 miles with 3k climbing using just the internal battery if you are putting in at least some effort and using reasonable assist levels. Unless your son is a pro rider you will run away from him even at low assist settings that allow you to go 30 miles with 4k climbing. The same things hold for the Levo SL but a range extender battery is already available. I’m seven years your senior and my internal battery seems to run out at about the same time as the one on the Fuel EXe, LOL, so I don’t miss an additional battery on the Trek that much. Of course, I also love riding my regular Stumpjumper but that requires more recovery time!


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

levity said:


> @MSU Alum – Based on your remarks above I think you’d be fine on an eMTB-lite bike. The ~300W boost available on these bikes is plenty unless you want the more “moto-like” experience of a full power ~700W ebike. I’ve had a Levo, a Levo SL and now a Fuel EXe. I prefer the experience of the less powerful, lighter bikes for technical riding - you just have to anticipate things and shift down more like you would on an regular bike. I’d only choose the full Levo for rides with extended climbing on fire roads, and even then the lower power bikes will get you there pretty quickly.
> 
> The Fuel EXe you mention should handle 20 miles with 3k climbing using just the internal battery if you are putting in at least some effort and using reasonable assist levels. Unless your son is a pro rider you will run away from him even at low assist settings that allow you to go 30 miles with 4k climbing. The same things hold for the Levo SL but a range extender battery is already available. I’m seven years your senior and my internal battery seems to run out at about the same time as the one on the Fuel EXe, LOL, so I don’t miss an additional battery on the Trek that much. Of course, I also love riding my regular Stumpjumper but that requires more recovery time!


Thanks, that helps a lot!


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

All major systems use torque based power delivery. This power level is very easy to tune to your exact requirements. Having more power available has zero effect on lower levels. 

There is also only a small downside in weight between full power and low power bikes. Most of the weight is the build of the bike. For example a 500mw levo with the same build as an SL levo is only 3-4lb heaver. It has 3x the power and 1.5x the range at the same power level. add the range extender to the SL and the weight is within 1-2lb.

Range is the real problem area for ebikes. I always want more. Power is limited by range.

Get a full power bike and adjust it to fit your riding. it's way more flexible for speed and power if you want it with such a small weight penalty. You will also learn how the system delivers power and adjust to it. I only use full power DH to boost out of corners and it's set to 50-60% of rider input to make it controllable.


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## levity (Oct 31, 2011)

I have to disagree with some of the numbers in the above post. I've owned Levos with 500 and 700Wh batteries and a Levo SL with a 360 Wh battery. I used the same component parts, many custom, on all three bikes the weight difference I measured between the Levo 500 and the SL 360 was just over 9 lb, a little more for the Levo 700. IIRC, this is about what Specialized specified. You can easily tell when lifting or moving the bikes around, and when riding the front end, especially, of the Levos feels noticeably heavier than the SL. Also, in my experience the ranges of the Levo 500 and the SL were comparable, as were the ranges of the Levo 700 and SL with range extender. Of course on the SL you may be going a bit slower at times, and the extra power of the Levos is fun!


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Levity - Sounds to me that the Fuel Exe could be the true quiver killer - or is riding the Stumpy way too much fun to give up?


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## levity (Oct 31, 2011)

Jack7782 said:


> Levity - Sounds to me that the Fuel Exe could be the true quiver killer - or is riding the Stumpy way too much fun to give up?


Hmmm, that's complicated. The EXe clicks most boxes – enough power, not too heavy, nice handling (note that the regular Fuel EX was Pinkbike’s MTB of the year for 2022). However, because trail access for ebikes is limited in places it’s good to have a non-assist bike as well. They're fun in any case, of course, and it would be tough to give up the light, agile playfulness of a bike like the Stumpy (or Fuel EX, or other) if one can afford n+1.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

The guy in the bike shop explained it well to me. An e bike is 4 x you. Imagine having 4x your normal power. God dammit it makes climbing fun. Particularly technical climbing, you can warp up stuff you typically don't have the power or fitness to get up normally.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

levity said:


> Hmmm, that's complicated. The EXe clicks most boxes – enough power, not too heavy, nice handling (note that the regular Fuel EX was Pinkbike’s MTB of the year for 2022). However, because trail access for ebikes is limited in places it’s good to have a non-assist bike as well. They're fun in any case, of course, and it would be tough to give up the light, agile playfulness of a bike like the Stumpy (or Fuel EX, or other) if one can afford n+1.


 Have you tried removing the battery and going for a ride yet? That would solve the E-bike access problem


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## levity (Oct 31, 2011)

Jack7782 said:


> Have you tried removing the battery and going for a ride yet? That would solve the E-bike access problem


Haven't tried that. I suggest continuing Fuel EXe specific discussion in these threads -








2023 Fuel EXe Official Thread


New bike drops Tuesday July 12th. There is a few pics out. Since this bike is going to have its own unique motor and display/interface, lets start a specific thread. We should see some reviews dropping tuesday as likely the bike is already in the hands of some. We are likely looking at a 50nm...




www.mtbr.com









Fuel EXe - Official Trek Fuel EXe Megathread!


Seeing as the EXe is looking pretty popular, here's the megathread! Link to "grinding noise" thread : https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/tq-hpr50-grinding-noise.31137/




www.emtbforums.com


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

I think the biggest adjustment for me is to remember to shift gears too. So it's still good idea to anticipate sudden uphills. That being said, when caught by a sudden uphill by surprise where shifting gears could be ugly, going up one power mode has saved me a few times.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Bikeventures said:


> That being said, when caught by a sudden uphill by surprise where shifting gears could be ugly, going up one power mode has saved me a few times.


Makes sense. I've had to go up several levels on leg power when this happens on a regular MTB!


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

That is an important point. The motor has a maximum power transfer cadence just like our bodies do. You shift down to make your cadence appropriate for your body and things will work much better if you can do that with the motor.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

levity said:


> Hmmm, that's complicated. The EXe clicks most boxes – enough power, not too heavy, nice handling (note that the regular Fuel EX was Pinkbike’s MTB of the year for 2022). However, because trail access for ebikes is limited in places it’s good to have a non-assist bike as well. They're fun in any case, of course, and it would be tough to give up the light, agile playfulness of a bike like the Stumpy (or Fuel EX, or other) if one can afford n+1.


The comment on the Pinkbike review is helpful. My prior comment on being concerned about suspension designs for climbing probably isn't valid.


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