# Ebike rant



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Quick brief rant and I will be on my way.

I was out for a nice tempo-paced ride the other day, and as I glanced behind me I see a cyclist gaining ground quickly. As he gets closer, I realize this isn't someone who could gain ground that quickly. As he whizzes, by, I wasn't surprised to see the stupid e-bike boastfully go by me. 

Ebikes are glorified mopeds. Fugg 'em. The rate of speed was impressive and certainly not warranted on trails. 

Done. G'nite!


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## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

I saw one on my local trail the other day and at first i just could not put my finger on it, but something looked out of place. This dude was gaining fast, which in my case is no surprise as I am proudly slow, but something just did not look right. 

Anyway I got to the trailhead just as he passed me, and then it was pointed out to me that an E-Bike was following me. And that is when it hit me as to why I thought it looked strange, this dude's speed was not commensurate to his effort. He was sitting upright, ramrod straight infact, but still doing a pretty good clip uphill. 

I understand your position, they do look out of place BUT this dude was old, I am guessing this is the only way he could enjoy the trails. I have not made up my mind about them yet though.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Burn them all.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Brodino said:


> I saw one on my local trail the other day and at first i just could not put my finger on it, but something looked out of place. This dude was gaining fast, which in my case is no surprise as I am proudly slow, but something just did not look right.
> 
> Anyway I got to the trailhead just as he passed me, and then it was pointed out to me that an E-Bike was following me. And that is when it hit me as to why I thought it looked strange, this dude's speed was not commensurate to his effort. He was sitting upright, ramrod straight infact, but still doing a pretty good clip uphill.
> 
> I understand your position, they do look out of place BUT this dude was old, I am guessing this is the only way he could enjoy the trails. I have not made up my mind about them yet though.


Funny how I was immediately ticked off by this dude whizzing past me. There's the physical aspect of cycling that I can't simply ignore when I see an ebiker tooling around. It's like cheating to me.

Get a moped and be on your merry way, and don't forget to have it registered and don't forget to wear a mandatory helmet in NYS.

It's not a bike.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Serenity Now!


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

As I've said before, once the door is cracked open allowing that some motors are ok on non-motorized trails, the door will be shoved open by a destructive flood that will be difficult, if not impossible, to stop.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Love my ebike, 250watt, economy mode only...I don't pass anyone unless they are stopped and I always check on them...BUT I have had several fast MTB pass me, but they always said Thank you for moving over and allowing them to pass without slowing their pace...


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## Zomby Woof (MCM700) (May 23, 2004)

A friend of mine just got this one:
Specialized Turbo Levo e-bike - Mtbr.com

I checked it out. He's gotten out of shape and bought this bike. Plus he's got some muscle aches now too. On top of that last weekend he got injured in a fall on that bike when he went down too steep a hill.

It seemed like an impulse buy to me. So we went out for a ride last week. He let me try it out. It's like a "supercharger" for your legs. It is a fantastic bike. I like that it does just add power to your legs and won't tear up the trail because it has no throttle and responds to your leg input. He went straight to the trail that starts out with a good climb. I couldn't make that climb right away. I wasn't even warmed up yet. That bike got him up there effortlessly. But I ride for fitness and I'll stick to 100% leg power. But then the next week we went for a ride again, so this time he was taking it easy because he wasn't looking for more injuries. So I wound up kicking his butt using just leg power only. He really hadn't been riding too much on the old bike. And I've been riding regularly and have increased my fitness, skills and know the trails better too. Even yesterday he called me up and told me how well I rode.

I'm also about 10 years older than him too. I do know there are many riders that can kick my butt on the trail too but I'm doing pretty well and having a good time.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I saw a gang of seven unruly 80 something years olds ripping up my local downtown area a few weeks ago on ebikes. They didn't have gang patched leather jackets but I suspect it won't be too much longer. We need to nip this in the bud before it gets out of hand.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I saw a gang of seven unruly 80 something years olds ripping up my local downtown area a few weeks ago on ebikes. They didn't have gang patched leather jackets but I suspect it won't be too much longer. We need to nip this in the bud before it gets out of hand.


Lol...exactly...danged old timers...and I saw the same in Wal Mart on them there electric carts...criminal, just criminal the way they were hogging the aisles...


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## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

chazpat said:


> As I've said before, once the door is cracked open allowing that some motors are ok on non-motorized trails, the door will be shoved open by a destructive flood that will be difficult, if not impossible, to stop.


Good point. I had not considered that. I can only imagine them at my local trail with one whizzing by every couple of minutes or so.


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## Zomby Woof (MCM700) (May 23, 2004)

Then there's that gang of old ladies too!


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Burn them all.


^ this


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Amen OP


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## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

One of our local riders is in his late 70's, picked up a FSR e-bike (heavy!), rides trails with us. "*With*" us, not racing us. Makes it easier to keep with the group (although he's probably in better shape that many of us!). On a 3 hour ride, he comes back with ~60% charge.

It's not about the bike.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

itsdoable said:


> One of our local riders is in his late 70's, picked up a FSR e-bike (heavy!), rides trails with us. "*With*" us, not racing us. Makes it easier to keep with the group (although he's probably in better shape that many of us!). On a 3 hour ride, he comes back with ~60% charge.
> 
> It's not about the bike.


Awesome...he'll have sit at home as soon as the hard core manual pedal-only nazi's finish burning the ebikes, like Hitler did the books...


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

And screw Gary Fisher for promoting this crap. I have been a supporter of his from day one, no more. Sorry Charlie....


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

BumpityBump said:


> And screw Gary Fisher for promoting this crap. I have been a supporter of his from day one, no more. Sorry Charlie....


I'm on board there, but his name is Gary not Charlie.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I'm on board there, but his name is Gary not Charlie.


Yes, but Charlie was there from the get go and is certainly a friend. Thus the "sorry" for dissing the friend, eh?


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## swingset (Oct 14, 2010)

Meh, doesn't pick my pocket or break my leg. If his battery is faster than my legs, I let them pass.

I think more damage to our trails has occurred by Strava weenies trying to cheat their times with trail neutering.

Can I pick which to burn? I'd burn Strava down.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Trails that say "No Motorized vehicles" are pretty clear to me, e-bikes can go use the MUT or a bike lane somewhere.
And Get Off My Lawn!


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

May your ebike battery explode 7 miles from the trailhead.


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## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

everyone going faster than me is a maniac and everyone going slower than me is a moron


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Mookie said:


> May your ebike battery explode 7 miles from the trailhead.


Lol...it has died a couple times in the desert, and it's like peddling an M1 tank back to camp uphill both times...I have paid my dues...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BCsaltchucker said:


> everyone going faster than me is a maniac and everyone going slower than me is a moron


I smell what your stepping in...that's me to a "T"...


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> Lol...it has died a couple times in the desert, and it's like peddling an M1 tank back to camp uphill both times...I have paid my dues...


You must be in surprisingly good shape.


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## swingset (Oct 14, 2010)

Honest question, what about them offends you guys that hate 'em? They're not any more powerful than your legs, about as heavy as Walgoose, so additional erosion or trail damage is unlikely or at best, no worse than an irresponsible pedeler.

They're silent, so it's not a noise issue.

Is it just not fair?

Honestly, I don't see a reason to even raise my BP over them. I really wish I did, cause I love to be pissed about stuff, but I don't get the vitriol.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

swingset said:


> Honest question, what about them offends you guys that hate 'em? They're not any more powerful than your legs, about as heavy as Walgoose, so additional erosion or trail damage is unlikely or at best, no worse than an irresponsible pedeler.
> 
> They're silent, so it's not a noise issue.
> 
> ...


If I wanted a motorcycle I'd buy a Ducati.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

swingset said:


> Honest question, what about them offends you guys that hate 'em? They're not any more powerful than your legs, about as heavy as Walgoose, so additional erosion or trail damage is unlikely or at best, no worse than an irresponsible pedeler.


I don't hate them but they are a lot more powerful than your legs, thus the appeal. They're also faster and different than human powered bikes and therefore deserve their own trailhead marker, that's all. Some places they would be fine, others maybe not.


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## HyperSprite (Mar 14, 2014)

With the regulations for what designates an e-bike vs motorized bike/scooter/moped etc, it might be fine. I am a little worried about what happens when the power mods start coming out with "This will boost you to 500 watts" or " install this and then you just push the button on the bar, no need to pedal". Those people are the ones who will spoil the trails and wreck it for everyone, and they are inevitable.

My only experience with them is at Sea Otter last weekend. I was doing an XC course recon and while I was going down the last big hill there was a guy on a regular bike killing himself going up the other way, he really looked like he was working. Behind him a little ways back was a woman on an e-bike pedaling up like it was nearly flat. She could have just been out for a demo and not even known that guy, or this could be the first time the guy's wife/girlfriend got to ride with him. So this could help balance the speed between the couples so they can both enjoy the same outdoors.

I'm think I am in the "Jury is still out" camp until it's too late to do anything about it anyway, I suppose. For me biking is all about what I can do, so I don't really have any need for motors...


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Just an FYI this thread was moved from the OC. just when things were getting fun. Let's see if you all can keep it a worthy read for those that happen upon it in 100 years. No pressure or anything.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Mookie said:


> You must be in surprisingly good shape.


 Legs and lungs still strong, the knees have both been whittled on, and the right needs it again...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

itsdoable said:


> One of our local riders is in his late 70's, picked up a FSR e-bike (heavy!), rides trails with us. "*With*" us, not racing us. Makes it easier to keep with the group (although he's probably in better shape that many of us!).


If he is in "better shape than many of us", why does he need to ride an eBike when the others aren't?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I don't have an e-bike but it occurs to me that the idea of them as "cheating" is the same argument people on foot had (have?) against people on mountain bikes.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Zomby Woof (MCM700) said:


> A friend of mine just got this one:
> Specialized Turbo Levo e-bike - Mtbr.com
> 
> I checked it out. He's gotten out of shape and bought this bike. Plus he's got some muscle aches now too. On top of that last weekend he got injured in a fall on that bike when he went down too steep a hill.
> ...


Kind of funny that you and LTZ (and me as well, I guess) were on opposite sides of the fence in that other thread and now you two seem to be on the same side and I'm on the opposite.

Where is your friend riding his eBike? I don't think they are allowed on any of the trails around us. Or maybe the legality is undefined at this point?


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

You qualify for a handicapped placard, get one and you're welcome on the multi-use trail network. Otherwise, keep that **** off the multi-user trail system.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Just an FYI this thread was moved from the OC. just when things were getting fun. Let's see if you all can keep it a worthy read for those that happen upon it in 100 years. No pressure or anything.


Seems like Klurejr should have moved this thing to the ebike subforum.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

LTZ470 said:


> Awesome...he'll have sit at home as soon as the hard core manual pedal-only nazi's finish burning the ebikes, like Hitler did the books...


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to LTZ470 again.

That was negative rep by the way


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

sfgiantsfan said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to LTZ470 again.
> 
> That was negative rep by the way


And you neg repped me as well. ut:


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## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

chazpat said:


> If he is in "better shape than many of us", why does he need to ride an eBike when the others aren't?


That's the point, isn't it? Who cares what he's riding. As long as he's having a good time with the group, and not a dick.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

sfgiantsfan said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to LTZ470 again.
> 
> That was negative rep by the way


If gaining a reputation makes folks act and think like you...I'll pass on it...lol...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

itsdoable said:


> That's the point, isn't it? Who cares what he's riding. As long as he's having a good time with the group, and not a dick.


 Exactly...live and let live...let folks get out and have a good time as long as they are riding safely, within their limits 90%, not damaging anything, and are in general having fun with other folks...respect is a two-way street...always has been...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

itsdoable said:


> That's the point, isn't it? Who cares what he's riding. As long as he's having a good time with the group, and not a dick.


Yep, bring on the motos! Totally unfair that they're not allowed on every MUT


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Yeah, I don't have a big issue with the stock low powered pedelec-only bikes with no throttle in and of themselves. My real problem is with all the aftermarket kits already available. The high powered stuff, the stuff that can run on a throttle only, and the mods possible to the stock stuff to increase power. As soon as you allow ANY ebikes, you now have created a need to regulate the types of ebikes on the trails.

Couple that with land managers who don't have any sort of concrete policy one way or the other....yeah. Recipe for trouble, mostly from user conflicts.


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## w1kk3d (Aug 10, 2012)

Nat said:


> I don't have an e-bike but it occurs to me that the idea of them as "cheating" is the same argument people on foot had (have?) against people on mountain bikes.


This^^^

Personally, I prefer to earn my descents and have no plans to ever own an e-bike but to each their own. I don't understand why people are so easily offended these days. They're not poisoning the environment (well maybe not directly anyways),not tearing up the trails, and definitely not the same thing as a gas powered dirt bike so why all the fuss? To me, its just a lazy man's MTB. To each their own I guess. Just be polite when you're passing me and we got no problem.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Just an FYI this thread was moved from the OC. just when things were getting fun. Let's see if you all can keep it a worthy read for those that happen upon it in 100 years. No pressure or anything.


Future generations will amazed that every thread devolved into nazi accusations back then too



LTZ470 said:


> Awesome...he'll have sit at home as soon as the hard core manual pedal-only nazi's finish burning the ebikes, like Hitler did the books...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Procter said:


> Future generations will amazed that every thread devolved into nazi accusations back then too


According to the folks here being a nazi is much better than being an ebike rider...


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

I am waiting until they come out with a Warp Drive bike. I can just envision a stack of dilithium crystals in the cross tube...


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## zorg (Jul 1, 2004)

I was passed by two older folks on ebikes a couple weeks ago that looked like noobs. And then... nothing happened and I kept riding. All had a good time.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

As clarification of my earlier comment, the concern for many, myself included, is not with ebikes themselves, but rather the use of ebikes on designated non-motorized trails. This has the potential to set legal precedent for opening more access by motorcycles and ATVs. I am a proponent of ebikes for non-trail use. AND I am a dual sport motorcycle owner.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> And you neg repped me as well. ut:


Ha! He neg-repped me too, and left some desultory comment.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> As clarification of my earlier comment, the concern for many, myself included, is not with ebikes themselves, but rather the use of ebikes on designated non-motorized trails. This has the potential to set legal precedent for opening more access by motorcycles and ATVs. I am a proponent of ebikes for non-trail use. AND I am a dual sport motorcycle owner.


Similar to an HOV Lane, I disagree, ebikes that are 20mph and under with 250Watt motor should be allowed...this will allow folks that are older and less fit, even fat folks to get out and get on the trails...States should have an Inspection Station and Stickers provided for ebike users within these regs...no sticker, no ride...money from inspection stickers should benefit trail usage and creation of additional trails or trail advocacy....it can be done, it has been done with MANY states that require ATV Stickers to ride in their state, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, etc...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Nat said:


> Ha! He neg-repped me too, and left some desultory comment.


Got me too...a negative kinda guy in a positive atmosphere = crybaby...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Got me too...a negative kinda guy in a positive atmosphere = crybaby...


I'm not a neg-rep kind of guy but that it's understandable that you got tagged because that absurd Nazi reference was definitely worth of one.

Nat and DJ though? Weird.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> Similar to an HOV Lane, I disagree, ebikes that are 20mph and under with 250Watt motor should be allowed...this will allow folks that are older and less fit, even fat folks to get out and get on the trails...States should have an Inspection Station and Stickers provided for ebike users within these regs...no sticker, no ride...money from inspection stickers should benefit trail usage and creation of additional trails or trail advocacy....it can be done, it has been done with MANY states that require ATV Stickers to ride in their state, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, etc...


Well then we disagree. If you are fat, exercise, don't compensate with a motor. Do we really want old frail people getting in over their heads and breaking bones?


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

swingset said:


> Honest question, what about them offends you guys that hate 'em?





Harold said:


> As soon as you allow ANY ebikes, you now have created a need to regulate the types of ebikes on the trails.
> 
> Couple that with land managers who don't have any sort of concrete policy one way or the other....yeah. Recipe for trouble, mostly from user conflicts.


This is absolutely and 100% absolutely the problem, and most people fail to realize that this is the much (much) larger issue. eBikes blur the line between motorized and human powered when there has historically been a crystal clear boundary that was easy to enforce. You had dirt bikes and you had mountain bikes. You can argue all you want that "[an eBike] has a motor . . . how could that be any other than a motorized vehicle?" but obviously, it's not in the same class as a 250cc dirt bike, and I'll concede that they shouldn't be regulated the same as a 250cc dirt bike.

eBikes create a new category of vehicle that needs to be regulated, and the historical approach of land managers has been to enforce a blanket ban on trail access when they don't know what to do or when the cost/challenge of enforcement outweighs the benefit. Do you really think that land managers are going to hide in the bushes and wait for someone to ride by and try and figure out if they're on an eBike or not?

What worries be is that the ban on eBikes will be applied broadly to all _bicycles_ - motorized or not and we'll lose access to even more trails because its an easier method of enforcement (and if you think this hasn't happened, or won't happen, think again . . . why do you think we can't ride bikes in designated wilderness or along the Pacific Crest Trail?).

You can ***** and moan all you want, call people out for being lazy, etc. but if you really want to do something about it, call your land managers. Talk to them and explain your perspective. Rest assured, the eBike crowd already has . . .


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

I'm in some circumstances that have me rethinking e bikes.

The experience with a disabled vets outdoors program, family member with cancer, and a terminally ill friend got me thinking e bikes might have a place and deserve some acceptance I was against earlier.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> Well then we disagree. If you are fat, exercise, don't compensate with a motor. Do we really want old frail people getting in over their heads and breaking bones?


Listen to these guys after riding a 250watt ebike up a grade...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm not a neg-rep kind of guy but that it's understandable that you got tagged because that absurd Nazi reference was definitely worth of one.
> 
> Nat and DJ though? Weird.





tiretracks said:


> Burn them all.


Exactly what the nazi's said about the books....


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> Listen to these guys after riding a 250watt ebike up a grade...


I clicked on the first link, read this in the caption "The motor (and the bike) just helps - ALOT" and closed the link.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> I clicked on the first link, read this in the caption "The motor (and the bike) just helps - ALOT" and closed the link.


As suspected, commenting without any first hand knowledge = second hand ignorance...you're judging without the facts, thank God you're not a real Judge...

I can understand that folks are dead set against it, but bring some knowledge into your judgement and a basis that holds it's ground...I.E. Common Sense...of course common sense is not so common any longer...


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/history-and-deception-opinion.html


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Listen to these guys after riding a 250watt ebike up a grade...


Thanks for the link, it illustrates exactly why these machines shouldn't be classified as bicycles. Dude's pulling a pretty mean grade @ ~18mph while commentating.



LTZ470 said:


> Exactly what the nazi's said about the books....


tiretracks "burn them all" comment was only a lighthearted joke, your's was inappropriate and not funny. Nazis burned a lot more than just books.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

bitflogger said:


> I'm in some circumstances that have me rethinking e bikes.
> 
> The experience with a disabled vets outdoors program, family member with cancer, and a terminally ill friend got me thinking e bikes might have a place and deserve some acceptance I was against earlier.


Most anti's will tell you that an ADA card gets a pass in their eyes, as it should.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Travis Bickle said:


> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/history-and-deception-opinion.html


^dead on the money


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> As suspected, commenting without any first hand knowledge = second hand ignorance...you're judging without the facts, thank God you're not a real Judge...
> 
> I can understand that folks are dead set against it, but bring some knowledge into your judgement and a basis that holds it's ground...I.E. Common Sense...of course common sense is not so common any longer...


I posted my concerns earlier which are based on common sense and knowledge. What "knowledge" am I missing other than the direct quote from the video poster that it helps a lot? Curious.....


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Travis Bickle said:


> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/history-and-deception-opinion.html


Great read, and drives the point home, thanks!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Travis Bickle said:


> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/history-and-deception-opinion.html


Good reading, thanks.


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

I have come across various trail users that are rude and do not follow trail etiquette. Many of those have been mtb riders. That said, the city of Boise does not allow ebikes on developed trails, and I hope they never do. There are plenty of other places for them to ride.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Nat said:


> Ha! He neg-repped me too, and left some desultory comment.


It's not the first time that dude has neg repped me without any reason. All I can assume is it happens after several months of not getting any action. Pent up frustration often leads to that kind of behavior.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I'm in the "earn your turns" camp, I guess. Clear dividing line is that it either has a motor, or it doesn't.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> I posted my concerns earlier which are based on common sense and knowledge. What "knowledge" am I missing other than the direct quote from the video poster that it helps a lot? Curious.....


You commented on folks basically not getting any exercise riding an ebike...very erroneous, and some fatter folks and old folks are now riding and getting back in shape and outdoors...as requested and something you did not want to hear...your choice to be ignorant on the subject...both vids show one older and one younger rider climbing on 250watt mtb up hills, they are both breathing hard and heavy...this is usually an indication of cardio stress and elevated heart rate indicating they are burning calories and therefore their body is taking shape...this is GOOD news...


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Are people riding pedelecs getting exercise? Of course they are. Does the bike have a motor? Yes, it does. These arguments take place as though they are going to change someone's mind. They won't.

The pros are never going to convince the antis and vice versa. These threads use to be amusing, now they're just annoying.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chuckha62 said:


> Are people riding pedelecs getting exercise? Of course they are. Does the bike have a motor? Yes, it does. These arguments take place as though they are going to change someone's mind. They won't.
> 
> The pros are never going to convince the antis and vice versa. These threads use to be amusing, now they're just annoying.


Would completely agree with you, if they were throttle only, not a specifically mtb designed, were higher wattage, damaged trails, harmed others, restricted other riders, hurt the environment, but they don't, and they lure folks out that would otherwise not even ride...win-win for everyone from my POV...been riding emtbike since 2013 made a lot of friends on the trails off the trails and it has encouraged me to travel more and get out more...love it...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> As suspected, commenting without any first hand knowledge = second hand ignorance...you're judging without the facts, thank God you're not a real Judge...
> 
> I can understand that folks are dead set against it, but bring some knowledge into your judgement and a basis that holds it's ground...I.E. Common Sense...of course common sense is not so common any longer...


Ok, I watched the first video, not sure what your point is, that the guy still got tired? He also said, "Motor is legit. High torque pulls you up. I rode up lots of steep grades and the Brose motor ate it up."

Watched a little of the second video, not going to spend my time watching all of it. The guy said, "I'm having to work a little bit". So your point is that an eBike still takes some effort?

If this is the case you are trying to make, I would file it under the "everyone gets a trophy for participating" category. This is nothing more than sanitizing. "this trail is too difficult with all these rocks, take them out", "I can't clear that obstacle, it's too hard, make it easier", "I can't climb all these long steep hills, give me a motor to assist". If someone can't handle a trail, they should ride an easier trail.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

swingset said:


> Honest question, what about them offends you guys that hate 'em? They're not any more powerful than your legs, about as heavy as Walgoose, so additional erosion or trail damage is unlikely or at best, no worse than an irresponsible pedeler.
> 
> They're silent, so it's not a noise issue.
> 
> ...


When eBikes were first "a thing" I was all fired up 'because cheating'. I honestly let that go pretty quickly.

These guys summed it up really well already, so I'll just say '+1' to both posts.



HyperSprite said:


> With the regulations for what designates an e-bike vs motorized bike/scooter/moped etc, it might be fine. I am a little worried about what happens when the power mods start coming out with "This will boost you to 500 watts" or " install this and then you just push the button on the bar, no need to pedal". Those people are the ones who will spoil the trails and wreck it for everyone, and they are inevitable.





Harold said:


> Yeah, I don't have a big issue with the stock low powered pedelec-only bikes with no throttle in and of themselves. My real problem is with all the aftermarket kits already available. The high powered stuff, the stuff that can run on a throttle only, and the mods possible to the stock stuff to increase power. As soon as you allow ANY ebikes, you now have created a need to regulate the types of ebikes on the trails.
> Couple that with land managers who don't have any sort of concrete policy one way or the other....yeah. Recipe for trouble, mostly from user conflicts.


I'm not (that) salty over 250w pedal assist. I don't understand it on singletrack, but to each, their own. I'd love to have one for commuting MUPs and roads. Just not technical terrain.

I know many eBike supporters are gonna shout "slippery slope" with the above arguments, but people as a species suck at self-regulation and I'm absolutely certain that mods boosting current eBikes to 1kW unsupplemented by rider are imminent. The internet is already littered with not only hacks to make this happen, but LEGIT companies that are proud of the fact they make these hugely powerful bikes. 
I know that huge power output is going to limit battery life to like 5-8 miles, but sadly this is also about the range for hikers and runners. The EXACT population that is gonna be really vocal about a "mountain biker" screaming up on them at 20mph UPHILL, and equally fast downhill, but saddled with 20lbs of battery weight making the bike difficult to finesse past another user. Altercations both up and down are almost unavoidable and a recipe for lost access disaster.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

chuckha62 said:


> Clear dividing line is that it either has a motor, or it doesn't.


100% agree.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Nat said:


> Ha! He neg-repped me too, and left some desultory comment.





DIRTJUNKIE said:


> It's not the first time that dude has neg repped me without any reason. All I can assume is it happens after several months of not getting any action. Pent up frustration often leads to that kind of behavior.


Are you guys Dodgers fans or something?

Madison Bumgarner is going to be out of action for awhile so the neg repper could be extra grumpy these days.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> You commented on folks basically not getting any exercise riding an ebike...very erroneous, and some fatter folks and old folks are now riding and getting back in shape and outdoors...as requested and something you did not want to hear...your choice to be ignorant on the subject...both vids show one older and one younger rider climbing on 250watt mtb up hills, they are both breathing hard and heavy...this is usually an indication of cardio stress and elevated heart rate indicating they are burning calories and therefore their body is taking shape...this is GOOD news...


And what would this lead to? Heavier and more out of shape people saying they should be allowed more than 250 watts, they deserve to ride, too you know. Old folks who were good with 250 watts but, as will happen, they have gotten older and now they need more power. Why can't these people ride part way up the trail, going a little further each time as they develop better fitness? Why can't they have future goals to reach for? That's what everyone of us did. Why should they get a participation trophy just because they showed up?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> And what would this lead to? Heavier and more out of shape people saying they should be allowed more than 250 watts, they deserve to ride, too you know. Old folks who were good with 250 watts but, as will happen, they have gotten older and now they need more power. Why can't these people ride part way up the trail, going a little further each time as they develop better fitness? Why can't they have future goals to reach for? That's what everyone of us did. Why should they get a participation trophy just because they showed up?


Naw, 250 watts set with the correct gearing = plenty enough for everyone...just adjust gearing accordingly...


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> You commented on folks basically not getting any exercise riding an ebike...very erroneous, and some fatter folks and old folks are now riding and getting back in shape and outdoors...as requested and something you did not want to hear...your choice to be ignorant on the subject...both vids show one older and one younger rider climbing on 250watt mtb up hills, they are both breathing hard and heavy...this is usually an indication of cardio stress and elevated heart rate indicating they are burning calories and therefore their body is taking shape...this is GOOD news...


You are referring to the wrong comment, try to keep up with the timeline of events:

"_As clarification of my earlier comment, the concern for many, myself included, is not with ebikes themselves, but rather the use of ebikes on designated non-motorized trails. This has the potential to set legal precedent for opening more access by motorcycles and ATVs. I am a proponent of ebikes for non-trail use. AND I am a dual sport motorcycle owner._"

Ebikes don't belong on trails. Read Cunningham's article, it's a good one.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> Ok, I watched the first video, not sure what your point is, that the guy still got tired? He also said, "Motor is legit. High torque pulls you up. I rode up lots of steep grades and the Brose motor ate it up."
> 
> Watched a little of the second video, not going to spend my time watching all of it. The guy said, "I'm having to work a little bit". So your point is that an eBike still takes some effort?
> 
> If this is the case you are trying to make, I would file it under the "everyone gets a trophy for participating" category. This is nothing more than sanitizing. "this trail is too difficult with all these rocks, take them out", "I can't clear that obstacle, it's too hard, make it easier", "I can't climb all these long steep hills, give me a motor to assist". If someone can't handle a trail, they should ride an easier trail.


Thats a bit weak defense for me, I just don't see folks with that attitude buying a $4000 250watt ebike with FS doing this...actually everyone I have seen on an mtb ebike were technical professionals 50's and up getting out and riding with a younger crew and having a great time doing it...honest truth, haven't seen any joy riders on single track anywhere from Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana...None...Nada...so I think it is being overly emphasized and blown out of proportion by mtb's as your self...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> You are referring to the wrong comment, try to keep up with the timeline of events:
> 
> "_As clarification of my earlier comment, the concern for many, myself included, is not with ebikes themselves, but rather the use of ebikes on designated non-motorized trails. This has the potential to set legal precedent for opening more access by motorcycles and ATVs. I am a proponent of ebikes for non-trail use. AND I am a dual sport motorcycle owner._"
> 
> Ebikes don't belong on trails. Read Cunningham's article, it's a good one.





BumpityBump said:


> Well then we disagree. If you are fat, exercise, don't compensate with a motor. Do we really want old frail people getting in over their heads and breaking bones?


I have been...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> It's not the first time that dude has neg repped me without any reason. All I can assume is it happens after several months of not getting any action. Pent up frustration often leads to that kind of behavior.


Well, I don't know him but I've always liked his signature!

I think he neg'ed Nat because of his comment saying considering it cheating is similar to what hikers said about mt bikers. He probably took this to mean Nat is pro eBike. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't; his comment doesn't really tell his view other than one small aspect. I have no idea why he neg'ed you.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> ...actually everyone I have seen on an mtb ebike were technical professionals 50's and up getting out and riding with a younger crew and having a great time doing it...honest truth, haven't seen any joy riders on single track anywhere from Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana...None...Nada...so I think it is being overly emphasized and blown out of proportion by mtb's as your self...


Living in AZ, I've actually crossed paths with 4 ebikes, and none of them were technical professionals as you put it. 2 were old Haibikes one HT and one FS, riding together (in a county preserve where I'm certain it was not legal), and the other two were on different occasions, but both frankenbikes with home conversion kits. One was reasonably polite as he passed, but frankly startled me when they overtook me on a climb, not only due to the speed of approach, but also the sheer "box of loose bolts" racket he made as they went by. He was also not wearing a helmet.
The last one wasn't even polite, and I had the misfortune to be Juuuusssssttt close enough to him when we both encountered a group of equestrians (Cave Creek/Scottsdale- horses are everywhere) that when he blew by and startled the group, I got the verbal consequences from them.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chuckha62 said:


> The pros are never going to convince the antis and vice versa.


Disagree. Not that I needed much convincing but the "pros" here have definitely sold me on the fact that they're fun, allow for a good workout, and probably won't do any more trail damage (per mile!) than a bicycle. Also I believe posters like old LTZ470 who say the're still pretty slow on them.

My issue is that many of the "pros" keep repeating the myth that they're no faster than bicycles and therefore the same thing, even when links like the ones LTZ470 posted clearly demonstrate that they are *significantly* faster. Cherry picking some facts while continually refusing to acknowledge others weakens the _"my e-bike is a bicycle damn it!"_ argument IMO.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> Thats a bit weak defense for me, I just don't see folks with that attitude buying a $4000 250watt ebike with FS doing this...actually everyone I have seen on an mtb ebike were technical professionals 50's and up getting out and riding with a younger crew and having a great time doing it...honest truth, haven't seen any joy riders on single track anywhere from Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana...None...Nada...so I think it is being overly emphasized and blown out of proportion by mtb's as your self...


I believe most of us discussing this with you are in our 50s or older, I'm 53. And you have taken your argument from "fatter folks and old folks" to "technical professionals 50's and up". Do you mean experienced bikers or that they work in professional occupations?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

ARandomBiker said:


> Living in AZ, I've actually crossed paths with 4 ebikes, and none of them were technical professionals as you put it. 2 were old Haibikes one HT and one FS, riding together (in a county preserve where I'm certain it was not legal), and the other two were on different occasions, but both frankenbikes with home conversion kits. One was reasonably polite as he passed, but frankly startled me when they overtook me on a climb, not only due to the speed of approach, but also the sheer "box of loose bolts" racket he made as they went by. He was also not wearing a helmet.
> The last one wasn't even polite, and I had the misfortune to be Juuuusssssttt close enough to him when we both encountered a group of equestrians (Cave Creek/Scottsdale- horses are everywhere) that when he blew by and startled the group, I got the verbal consequences from them.


Not me, but I haven't ridden out there since 2014 as well...only encountered one other older guy in McDowell Mountain trails that had an ebike and it was well used, didn't really quiz him about it, but he was riding with a younger crew and they were having a blast, he had bit the dust somewhere along the trail though, but was still going strong with them...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> I believe most of us discussing this with you are in our 50s or older, I'm 53. And you have taken your argument from "fatter folks and old folks" to "technical professionals 50's and up". Do you mean experienced bikers or that they work in professional occupations?


Occupations that allow them enough coin to afford a $4000 e-mtbike...and yes, some of us are fatter due to age and lack of physical work/activity...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Disagree. Not that I needed much convincing but the "pros" here have definitely sold me on the fact that they're fun, allow for a good workout, and probably won't do any more trail damage (per mile!) than a bicycle. Also I believe posters like old LTZ470 who say the're still pretty slow on them.
> 
> My issue is that many of the "pros" keep repeating the myth that they're no faster than bicycles and therefore the same thing, even when links like the ones LTZ470 posted clearly demonstrate that they are *significantly* faster. Cherry picking some facts while continually refusing to acknowledge others weakens the _"my e-bike is a bicycle damn it!"_ argument IMO.


Would have to be with someone else onboard besides me for sure...slow and steady wins the race for me....otherwise I start getting acrobatic with the OTB tricks...


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> I have been...


Obviously not very well. Hint, timeline = earlier events first


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Would have to be with someone else onboard besides me for sure...


Someone sort of like the guy in the vid you posted?


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

007 said:


> This is absolutely and 100% absolutely the problem, and most people fail to realize that this is the much (much) larger issue. eBikes blur the line between motorized and human powered when there has historically been a crystal clear boundary that was easy to enforce. You had dirt bikes and you had mountain bikes. You can argue all you want that "[an eBike] has a motor . . . how could that be any other than a motorized vehicle?" but obviously, it's not in the same class as a 250cc dirt bike, and I'll concede that they shouldn't be regulated the same as a 250cc dirt bike.
> 
> eBikes create a new category of vehicle that needs to be regulated, and the historical approach of land managers has been to enforce a blanket ban on trail access when they don't know what to do or when the cost/challenge of enforcement outweighs the benefit. Do you really think that land managers are going to hide in the bushes and wait for someone to ride by and try and figure out if they're on an eBike or not?
> 
> ...


Excellent analysis! Spot on. This issue isn't whether E-bikes are fun, serve a purpose for those with limited abilities, or any other case. It is that land managers will lump ALL two wheeled "drive systems" together and limit ALL kinds of these "machines" in their terrain.

Above is an excellent Op-Ed posted on PinkBike.com. This pretty much says it all; "...the power source is the most important aspect of the bike, and if you add a motor to a bicycle, the motor becomes the star of the show."

We had a late season snow yesterday. It left waist deep snow in our high country. The ski area closed about 3 weeks ago. Today I skinned up for 3 laps totaling over 5K vert in just under 2 hours. The place was PACKED with skiers and boarders. If the lifts were running the experience would have been completely different. Today everyone got face shots galore, skied waist-deep pow, and had a blast--without any additional power! Yes, it did limit access for some who cannot hike, but for those lucky enough to have able bodies, it was special.

I don't have any answers to whether E-bikes should be allowed on publicly-owned trails. I just know people are often short-sighted in their decision-making which can cause many unintended consequences.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Someone sort of like the guy in the vid you posted?


Dude, the mtb that passed me the other day, blew by me and left me in his dust...never looked back...probably pro...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

chazpat said:


> Well, I don't know him but I've always liked his signature!
> 
> I think he neg'ed Nat because of his comment saying considering it cheating is similar to what hikers said about mt bikers. He probably took this to mean Nat is pro eBike. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't; his comment doesn't really tell his view other than one small aspect. I have no idea why he neg'ed you.


My comment didn't reveal whether I'm pro- or con- on purpose. I'm actually undecided. I could see really enjoying an e-bike in certain situations and locations. I don't think it has to be all-or-nothing. But what kind of person negative-reps someone simply because he disagrees with them? "I like 29" wheels." Negative rep! "I like tubeless tires." Negative rep! "I like singlespeeding." Negative rep! Weak.

My biggest worry about e-bikes is related to the movement to allow bikes in Wilderness areas. Following this slippery slope, if bikes are allowed in Wilderness and e-bikes qualify as bikes, then it's okay to ride an e-bike in Wilderness? I spend a lot of time on foot exploring the Pacific Crest Trail and honestly the last thing I want is for a group of bike racers out on a training ride blowing past me in the name of Strava.

On a side note, is "pedelec" a real term or did someone on this forum make that up?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Nat said:


> My comment didn't reveal whether I'm pro- or con- on purpose. I'm actually undecided. I could see really enjoying an e-bike in certain situations and locations. I don't think it has to be all-or-nothing. But what kind of person negative-reps someone simply because he disagrees with them? "I like 29" wheels." Negative rep! "I like tubeless tires." Negative rep! "I like singlespeeding." Negative rep! Weak.
> 
> My biggest worry about e-bikes is related to the movement to allow bikes in Wilderness areas. Following this slippery slope, if bikes are allowed in Wilderness and e-bikes qualify as bikes, then it's okay to ride an e-bike in Wilderness? I spend a lot of time on foot exploring the Pacific Crest Trail and honestly the last thing I want is for a group of bike racers out on a training ride blowing past me in the name of Strava.
> 
> On a side note, is "pedelec" a real term or did someone on this forum make that up?


It's just a euphemism used deceitfully to cloak them in innocuousness, call them what they are Emotorbikes.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> Obviously not very well. Hint, timeline = earlier events first


You were still talking about fat folks riding ebikes...that was the key reference, and I responded accordingly...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Someone sort of like the guy in the vid you posted?





chuckha62 said:


> I'm in the "earn your turns" camp, I guess. Clear dividing line is that it either has a motor, or it doesn't.


Not according to the laws...
https://cargobikeking.com/pages/electric-bike-laws


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

https://electricbikereview.com/guides/electric-bike-classes/


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> You were still talking about fat folks riding ebikes...that was the key reference, and I responded accordingly...


My rebuttal was with respect to your "knowledge, second hand ignorance, judging" blather. Thus the reference to my third post on this thread wherein I stated my opinion. That opinion was based not on second hand ignorance, but rather having worked on access issues in the past and conversed with people wanting motorized access to restricted trails.

You were the first one to use the term "fat folks" on this thread. Jeebus.

Exiting stage left now.

Oh, the, wheels on the bus..... :crazy:


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Dude, the mtb that passed me the other day, blew by me and left me in his dust...never looked back...probably pro...


And that pro would have gotten blown away by what appeared to be an average rider on an e-bike in your vid. So in your utopia an average rider will be capable of exceeding speeds that only 1% of riders can achieve now. Super!


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> My rebuttal was with respect to your "knowledge, second hand ignorance, judging" blather. Thus the reference to my third post on this thread wherein I stated my opinion. That opinion was based not on second hand ignorance, but rather having worked on access issues in the past and conversed with people wanting motorized access to restricted trails.
> 
> You were the first one to use the term "fat folks" on this thread. Jeebus.
> 
> ...





BumpityBump said:


> Well then we disagree. If you are fat, exercise, don't compensate with a motor. Do we really want old frail people getting in over their heads and breaking bones?


I beg to differ sir, you were downgrading/limiting fat folks to a level where they should just exercise and not seek out any enjoyment that would draw them to exercise I.E. Fun and ebikes are fun, even you all's beloved Richard Cunningham said the same about emtbike's "absolute fun"...

and #2 they are a lot of frail old folks that might even surprise you with their strength...but bad knees are no joke and I like riding single track along with everyone else...

#3 you didn't even watch the videos and then responded with:



BumpityBump said:


> I clicked on the first link, read this in the caption "The motor (and the bike) just helps - ALOT" and closed the link.


which = lack of knowledge and ignorance on what it actually takes to climb a hill on an emtbike...the gents weren't breathing hard for no reason...lol...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Someone sort of like the guy in the vid you posted?





J.B. Weld said:


> And that pro would have gotten blown away by what appeared to be an average rider on an e-bike in your vid. So in your utopia an average rider will be capable of exceeding speeds that only 1% of riders can achieve now. Super!


Sorry, but I would have to see that, we were on a tight dusty switchback after switchback trail...in the straights yes, but anyone can ride fast in the straights...none of that trail was straight for even 50 yards...dude was a good rider for sure...


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## Xaero (Mar 18, 2006)

What annoys me about pro-emtb riders is using the "e-bikes are good for unfit and/or old people so they can enjoy the outdoors with their 250 watt emtb, they're not going to ruin trails with that" while they're building 3k(or more) watt emtbs or removing limiters.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

The blatant dishonesty that the emotorbike industry and it's supporters have resorted to is disheartening.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Xaero said:


> What annoys me about pro-emtb riders is using the "e-bikes are good for unfit and/or old people so they can enjoy the outdoors with their 250 watt emtb, they're not going to ruin trails with that" while they're building 3k(or more) watt emtbs or removing limiters.


Haven't seen ANY...honest abe...I would report them if I did...250watt pedal assist is good enough for 99% of older folks or folks with health issues, just gear accordingly...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> The blatant dishonesty that the emotorbike industry and it's supporters have resorted to is disheartening.


Please post some examples for me...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> I beg to differ sir, you were downgrading/limiting fat folks to a level where they should just exercise and not seek out any enjoyment that would draw them to exercise I.E. Fun and ebikes are fun, even you all's beloved Richard Cunningham said the same about emtbike's "absolute fun"...
> 
> and #2 they are a lot of frail old folks that might even surprise you with their strength...but bad knees are no joke and I like riding single track along with everyone else...
> 
> ...


You keep going back and forth with your argument, sometimes these are old, weak, fat, out of shape people deserving the right to enjoy climbing that hill. Then you say how it isn't easy to climb a hill on an emtbike and how they were breathing hard. Then when I point out that means at some point, they will push for "a little more power to make it easier" you say 250w is all that is needed and it's all in the gearing. I guess they were riding poorly geared bikes? In that first video, he passed a number of mountain bikers paused to rest but I don't believe anyone passed him.

And you never answer my question, if it's too hard to ride an actual mountain bike on the trail, why can't they just ride easier trails? Why can't that be fun and it is "just exercise" without enjoyment? When I started back mountain biking in 2006, I had to stop a couple of times to rest on the intermediate 4.2 mile loop and I was exhausted by the time I finished. I kept at it until I could make it stopping once, then not stopping at all, then doing a couple of loops. I never expected the reward of making it around the loop non-stop to be given to me just for showing up.


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## Xaero (Mar 18, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> Haven't seen ANY...honest abe...I would report them if I did...250watt pedal assist is good enough for 99% of older folks or folks with health issues, just gear accordingly...


You can tell from a quick glance that he's running a 3k(or more) watt motor or a motor with the limiter removed? ("over 9000!!!")

Anyway, i visited some emtb forums and our local e-bike forum in mtbr, a lot of the threads talk about DIYers bolting on powerful motors or wanting moar power.

Once emtbs become legal in all trails where mtb's are legal, i wouldn't be surprised if the 250 watt emtbs become rare and 1k watts is the norm.

Why pedal when you can just braaaappp to the top? even less sweat, even more dh laps.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> You keep going back and forth with your argument, sometimes these are old, weak, fat, out of shape people deserving the right to enjoy climbing that hill. Then you say how it isn't easy to climb a hill on an emtbike and how they were breathing hard. Then when I point out that means at some point, they will push for "a little more power to make it easier" you say 250w is all that is needed and it's all in the gearing. I guess they were riding poorly geared bikes? In that first video, he passed a number of mountain bikers paused to rest but I don't believe anyone passed him.
> 
> And you never answer my question, if it's too hard to ride an actual mountain bike on the trail, why can't they just ride easier trails? Why can't that be fun and it is "just exercise" without enjoyment? When I started back mountain biking in 2006, I had to stop a couple of times to rest on the intermediate 4.2 mile loop and I was exhausted by the time I finished. I kept at it until I could make it stopping once, then not stopping at all, then doing a couple of loops. I never expected the reward of making it around the loop non-stop to be given to me just for showing up.


He was a huffin and a puffin as well...lol...wasn't a walk in the park for sure...yes, a regular MTB can be ridden, it would shorten my rides significantly though, I like photography and I like traveling the back trails and roads...I love all kinds of back trails and roads, I ride them on my UTV, Jeep, and Emtbike as well...why not? I can take my cameras with me on all three and enjoy doing it...haven't heard ANYONE complain on any trail that I was riding except ribbing me for cheating one time out a month or so ago and me and that guy became good friends, he was one of the trail moderators and a great guy...he saw #1 that I was respectful and courteous stopping to help others in need and always checking on other stopped riders, #2 I did not damage the trails and followed the rules, #3 not riding faster than everyone else, but riding the same flowing speed as they were, same as you would on a highway...safe and steady...he invited me back and was glad I stopped to chat on the trail and at the parking area...

I have heard/seen/read more complaints on this one forum than I have ever heard since buying the bike in 2013...lol...unbelievable is all I can say...I just been riding and having fun...should have never got in this hunt for sure...


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Nat said:


> My comment didn't reveal whether I'm pro- or con- on purpose. I'm actually undecided. I could see really enjoying an e-bike in certain situations and locations. I don't think it has to be all-or-nothing. But what kind of person negative-reps someone simply because he disagrees with them? "I like 29" wheels." Negative rep! "I like tubeless tires." Negative rep! "I like singlespeeding." Negative rep! Weak.


Pretty much how I feel, still on the fence so to speak. I'm neither against ebikes or for them. Nor did I say anything in either direction to warrant a neg rep.

Now for my opinion on ebikes, first time for me in this thread by the way. At first I was on board with being totally against them. Then I realized who am I? I don't own the multi use trail systems. Who am I to judge another persons idea of fun. That said: Reality hits along with sensibility. It comes down to responsible riders. I see these ebikes getting more powerful with each passing millisecond in time. Look how fast technology has moved. Ebikes will get so powerful in such a short period of time there's no way they can commingle with human powered [or horse walking] transportation.

In my opinion ebikes hit 30 years too late. If they hit back in the 1970's when the main transportation on the trails was dirt bikes, then they would fit right in.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Pretty much how I feel, still on the fence so to speak. I'm neither against ebikes or for them. Nor did I say anything in either direction to warrant a neg rep.
> 
> Now for my opinion on ebikes, first time for me in this thread by the way. At first I was on board with being totally against them. Then I realized who am I? I don't own the multi use trail systems. Who am I to judge another persons idea of fun. That said: Reality hits along with sensibility. It comes down to responsible riders. I see these ebikes getting more powerful with each passing millisecond in time. Look how fast technology has moved. Ebikes will get so powerful in such a short period of time there's no way they can commingle with human powered [or horse walking] transportation.
> 
> In my opinion ebikes hit 30 years too late. If they hit back in the 1970's when the main transportation on the trails was dirt bikes, then they would fit right in.


You really hit the nail on the head wholly: Responsible Riders...thats where this needs to lead...


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## SoCalEpicRyder (Apr 26, 2017)

I'm going to try and keep it short. 

Devided we fall. 

I'm 42 years old. I was born and raised in southern California. The only time I have spent outside southern California was on active duty orders. I've been into the outdoors my whole life. Hiking, camping, hunting, shooting, dirt bikes, baja bugs, dune buggies, trucks, and now, mtb. The common thread amongst all these dirt oriented activities. Constant erosion of rights of land use. The hard left progressive nazzies, yes, I went there, because that's what they are, have always needed little excuse to label thousands of acres off limits for human passage. And they are very entrenched and have a lot of influence. So find a way to get along and make room for one another or you'll soon be talking about the good old days when you used to be able to ride your favorite trails. Before the nazzies took it all away from you. 

And I think there are a lot of people who can benefit from an ebike. People like my wife who's never going to be able to keep up with me and the kids on a family ride and always misses out on those memories. She works 60 hours a week as a network analyst, commutes 45 miles one way and has a ruptured disk. She's just never going to be at our level. I would love to get her on an ebike a few times a month for the epics the kids and I love. 

How many nay sayers think her riding trails with us is a bad thing?


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Xaero said:


> i wouldn't be surprised if the 250 watt emtbs become rare


Wait..
honestly and seriously, is 250 watts supposed to be the max?

I did a test about two months ago on my smart trainer, with a set of Garmin Vector power pedals.

I tested a Trek PowerFly.

On the highest setting, I was putting out an average of 150 watts, and the trainer was getting an average of 625 watts, max of 725 watts.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

DethWshBkr said:


> Wait..
> honestly and seriously, is 250 watts supposed to be the max?
> 
> I did a test about two months ago on my smart trainer, with a set of Garmin Vector power pedals.
> ...


Watts your point?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

SoCalEpicRyder said:


> I'm going to try and keep it short.
> 
> Devided we fall.
> 
> ...


Some of the best times my family has ever had was out on the trails...an ebike would be perfect for your wife to enjoy and bring some fun into her life as well as exercise and family time...Crazy Lenny's is where you can get the best deal (Google)...


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

LTZ470 said:


> Thats a bit weak defense for me, I just don't see folks with that attitude buying a $4000 250watt ebike with FS doing this...actually everyone I have seen on an mtb ebike were technical professionals 50's and up getting out and riding with a younger crew and having a great time doing it...honest truth, haven't seen any joy riders on single track anywhere from Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana...None...Nada...so I think it is being overly emphasized and blown out of proportion by mtb's as your self...


Yeah, those old people in their 50's are just slowing everyone down. Good Lord...


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

LTZ470 said:


> Some of the best times my family has ever had was out on the trails...an ebike would be perfect for your wife to enjoy and bring some fun into her life as well as exercise and family time...Crazy Lenny's is where you can get the best deal (Google)...


Or, the family can slow down so she can keep up.

It's not a bike if it has a motor. Stay on the street or designated MV playgrounds.

Our local race sponsor, a bike shop, is now promoting their e-bikes at the race venue. The only upside to that is it could give me a shot at the podium!


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

LTZ470 said:


> Exactly what the nazi's said about the books....


Huh? The next target of a large-scale pogrom will be e-bikes?


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Mookie said:


> May your ebike battery explode 7 miles from the trailhead.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mookie again.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Crankout said:


> Huh? The next target of a large-scale pogrom will be e-bikes?


I said that in reference to this comment:



tiretracks said:


> Burn them all.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Crankout said:


> Or, the family can slow down so she can keep up.
> 
> It's not a bike if it has a motor. Stay on the street or designated MV playgrounds.
> 
> Our local race sponsor, a bike shop, is now promoting their e-bikes at the race venue. The only upside to that is it could give me a shot at the podium!


http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/electric-bicycle-regulation-links-1044226.html


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

bicycle designed to be ridden in the mountains: mountain bike
"bike" with motor: motorbike

I really don't understand how anyone cannot agree with that.

Do you also go on rock climbing sites and advocate that hand grips should be installed on rock faces so that everyone can enjoy rock climbing?



LTZ470 said:


> He was a huffin and a puffin as well...lol...wasn't a walk in the park for sure...yes, a regular MTB can be ridden, it would shorten my rides significantly though, I like photography and I like traveling the back trails and roads...I love all kinds of back trails and roads, I ride them on my UTV, Jeep, and Emtbike as well...why not? I can take my cameras with me on all three and enjoy doing it...haven't heard ANYONE complain on any trail that I was riding except ribbing me for cheating one time out a month or so ago and me and that guy became good friends, he was one of the trail moderators and a great guy...he saw #1 that I was respectful and courteous stopping to help others in need and always checking on other stopped riders, #2 I did not damage the trails and followed the rules, #3 not riding faster than everyone else, but riding the same flowing speed as they were, same as you would on a highway...safe and steady...he invited me back and was glad I stopped to chat on the trail and at the parking area...
> 
> I have heard/seen/read more complaints on this one forum than I have ever heard since buying the bike in 2013...lol...unbelievable is all I can say...I just been riding and having fun...should have never got in this hunt for sure...


I am 100% for anyone riding an eBike wherever UTVs and Jeeps are allowed, this is where they should be ridden. Please go ride there and have fun, 100% behind you. One thing you will learn from spending time on this site is that mountain biking really varies depending on where you ride. I don't know where that trail was in the second video you posted or what the regulations are. It looked pretty much like a gravel road to me. If the land manager wants to allow eBikes, fine. But come out to Georgia and visit the trails I ride. They are much different. And visit the trail two miles from my home, in a national forest. I am pretty sure that allowing motorized bikes on those trails will lead to a ban on everything but foot traffic.

And from what I understand, really riding a dirt bike (on dirt bike trails or a motocross track) is a pretty good workout so if someone doesn't want to have to do all the pedaling of riding a mountain bike and wants a motor, they can still get a good workout.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Crankout said:


> Or, the family can slow down so she can keep up.
> 
> It's not a bike if it has a motor. Stay on the street or designated MV playgrounds.
> 
> Our local race sponsor, a bike shop, is now promoting their e-bikes at the race venue. The only upside to that is it could give me a shot at the podium!


http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/electric-bicycle-regulation-links-1044226.html


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

chazpat said:


> Do you also go on rock climbing sites and advocate that hand grips should be installed on rock faces so that everyone can enjoy rock climbing?


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Cornfield said:


>


This is great! I know some fat, out of shape people that really want to try climbing. This will allow them to do it!


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Cornfield said:


>


Looks like a bridge inspection taking place. It does have recreational appeal though, I guess. Until the battery dies, that is.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

swingset said:


> Honest question, what about them offends you guys that hate 'em? They're not any more powerful than your legs, about as heavy as Walgoose, so additional erosion or trail damage is unlikely or at best, no worse than an irresponsible pedeler.
> 
> They're silent, so it's not a noise issue.
> 
> ...


 MA rider here, illegal for almost all the public areas in the state. So poachers, die. And motorized vehicles are not allowed. Wait till the juiced up 1,2,3-000 watt ones come zipping by. Cuz Americans never mod anything and the need for speed is a fad?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Similar to an HOV Lane, I disagree, ebikes that are 20mph and under with 250Watt motor should be allowed...this will allow folks that are older and less fit, even fat folks to get out and get on the trails...States should have an Inspection Station and Stickers provided for ebike users within these regs...no sticker, no ride...money from inspection stickers should benefit trail usage and creation of additional trails or trail advocacy....it can be done, it has been done with MANY states that require ATV Stickers to ride in their state, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, etc...


 Another layer of Gov? Nice. Don't they have off road motorcycle stickers? Those would work. Bikes don't have motors. Would be welcome to share the jeep and ATV trails, yes? Old ,fat and lazy is not a handicap. FYI. Some sports require fitness, not everybody gets a medal for participating. Folks just start running and do a marathon the next month? Or hike mt washington the first season? So the ebikes would get an atv sticker and ride with them, great.


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## Maday (Aug 21, 2008)

Blah


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

bitflogger said:


> I'm in some circumstances that have me rethinking e bikes.
> 
> The experience with a disabled vets outdoors program, family member with cancer, and a terminally ill friend got me thinking e bikes might have a place and deserve some acceptance I was against earlier.


 The ADA has broad and sweeping power to gain access for those not physically able. Check out" other mobility powered devices" My friend uses an electric wheelchair, 750 watt, great sus and rides well. Subject to some local manager rules, like, some areas have no bikes at all, and some trails are designated, accessible and so on.


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

I always knew the mopeds would get their revenge. All they needed was to dress up like mountain bikes! Ha!

Also I don't understand why anyone wants to go faster on flats and up hills...


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## tims5377 (Oct 20, 2010)

ARandomBiker said:


> t when he blew by and startled the group, I got the verbal consequences from them.


The thing is, this is not an argument you can make against what the guy was riding. This specific anecdote is about knowing rules of who yields, and being a kind trail user. I have read similar stories many times on this site with the cause usually being "he was a lycra clad strava dick".

They do need regulation. It would be quite simple to ban users on motorized transport. Likely difficult to enforce though.

I don't ride an e-bike, but when I blow out ___ muscle or joint (pick your favorite) or get to be of an age where I physically can not explore on my bike any more, I will damn sure have an ebike. 
Will I still be a respectful trail user (to the environment and other users)? Yes.
Will I ride trails that I am not allowed on? No.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

SoCalEpicRyder said:


> I'm going to try and keep it short.
> 
> Devided we fall.
> 
> ...


 Hmmm, My wife rides on the back of the tandem. Always goes the exact same speed as me. Wait, long hours, no time I"m busy rant? Nice. So Cal? LOTS of crowding, less trail access and now e motorbikes are going to help? Do you both ski double black diamond chutes? Hike for 8 hours above the tree line with camping gear for the week? Hmmmm. You can get out on an e bike together, try the road, bike paths, and ATV trails. All right there.


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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

I am not in favor of ebikes on the trails, but a recent change in my gearing from 2x10 to 1x11 left me huffing and puffing up a steep trail behind my house.

The thought of a ebike never crossed my mind as my legs were screaming for mercy, but after slogging through this thread and trail, maybe it's not quite so evil. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

SoCalEpicRyder said:


> The hard left progressive nazzies, yes, I went there, because that's what they are, have always needed little excuse to label thousands of acres off limits for human passage.


Not off limits to human passage, maybe off limits to trucks and atv's but open and available to anyone.

Why the repeated use of the n-word? How is it appropriate or relevant in any way? "Devided we fall."


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

swingset said:


> Honest question, what about them offends you guys that hate 'em?


It's their fragile little egos that are offended. The OP said it himself...."it's like cheating". Cheating at what? Was it race? Everything is a competition for people like him.

.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

_CJ said:


> It's their fragile little egos that are offended. The OP said it himself...."it's like cheating". Cheating at what? Was it race? Everything is a competition for people like him.
> 
> .


I wouldn't call most mountain bikers slogging up a climb "fragile". Especially while doing it without a motor. It seems that you could be the fragile one.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Xaero said:


> Once emtbs become legal in all trails where mtb's are legal, i wouldn't be surprised if the 250 watt emtbs become rare and 1k watts is the norm.


What about riders who make more than 250W? I routinely average more than 400 watts on some segments, with peaks of more than 1500W.



> Why pedal when you can just braaaappp to the top? even less sweat, even more dh laps.


yeah, why not? Who are you to say how other people should enjoy themselves?

.


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## jminus (Sep 4, 2008)

SoCalEpicRyder said:


> I'm going to try and keep it short.
> 
> Devided we fall.
> 
> ...


I can't stand this argument. Nobody really thinks getting your wife out on an ebike would be a bad thing. The problem is that when you make them legal on the "fun" trails, people who already are fast riders are going to start riding them too. If everyone at my local hill is brapping past me on the climbs, then you can bet I'm gonna get one too so I'm not constantly getting my ride disrupted with overtaking ebikes. I like riding dirt bikes anyway. It won't be mountain biking anymore though.

That is what I'm worried about. An arms race that eventually leaves us all confined to ORV parks. It's human nature. If motors are allowed, we are going to end up there.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

_CJ said:


> It's their fragile little egos that are offended. The OP said it himself...."it's like cheating". Cheating at what? Was it race? Everything is a competition for people like him.
> 
> .


Those of us that enjoy the physical demands of cycling would understand my statement in the opening rant. Grab a moped and go ride. Bite my nutz if you want to take them on our trails.


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

Nat said:


> My biggest worry about e-bikes is related to the movement to allow bikes in Wilderness areas. Following this slippery slope, if bikes are allowed in Wilderness and e-bikes qualify as bikes, then it's okay to ride an e-bike in Wilderness? I spend a lot of time on foot exploring the Pacific Crest Trail and honestly the last thing I want is for a group of bike racers out on a training ride blowing past me in the name of Strava.


I'm not sure I'm following you as intended here, but it sounds like an argument against _any_ bikes in the Wilderness.

Out of all the pro and con e-bike arguments, it seems that one of the most often-overlooked points is that one doesn't require a motor to ride like a jackass.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

I was dead set against e-bikes until I built one for my disabled wife and watched a miraculous transformation. I rode it to debug it and detune the bike enough for her through programing. I did not take long to realize how much I had lost on the youth factor and what an e-bike would give back to me. 
I had not considered a snow bike because I did not feel I could have the kind of fun I wanted on one. I idea grew and I have built a fat bike with 4.8" wide tires. The kit is fully capable of being hot rodded but that defeats much of the purpose I want it for which is exercise but not being totally wiped out. The kits for my wife's bike and my bike came with a throttle. 
My experience:
I cannot recommend a throttle for use on bike trails as I find them to be dangerous without a real way to get around that. You can bump them when not intended or they can jerk on trail when going over rough stuff causing and accident. I have them on the bikes but rolled up with the throttle levers against the brake reservoirs where they cannot be used. If for some reason one of us gave out and could not muster the energy to get back I could take out a tool, loosen them and rotate them to an effective place. I am strongly considering eliminating the throttle all together from my bike. I don't see running out of energy as a real problem. 
I have greatly detuned my fat bike to be within legal limits. I find the legal limits of 20mph max and 750 watts rated to be more than adequate. I have further detuned the bike through limiting available power for different pedal assist settings. Doing so smooth's out the power curves to feel much more natural and predictable. There are nine assist levels. The first four levels I have programed to be more or less mountain bike specific in that the speeds are low but the available power is high. The lowest setting is at 6 mph (10kph). To give you an idea it will reach the full power draw if the bike drops to 3.5 mph. (On my bike the less cadence you pedal or are below set speed the more assist you get. I can then put in as much as I have available in my legs and the bike will only make up the difference if I can't) My top mountain bike speed is 11 set at 11 mph (17.6 kph). Levels 5 through 9 are more for MUT and road and all but level 9 have limited power below 750 watts. I ride MUT's three days a week with a group of old roadies and set my PAL just below the group speed. Most of the time I am not using assist but the roadies have a big advantage when we hit hill and PA lets me keep up. 
Some interesting things have taken place in my biking. I am thinking much more about longer multi-day rides. Something totally unrealistic in the past. On MUT's I find I slow down more to pass walkers or slow riders. The real reason seems to be that I can easily get back up to speed once past. I find myself obeying rules more for the same reason. Off road I find that overall my speed is lower. The way I have it programed you don't need momentum to get over stuff so I don't get a run at things and don't tend to self hype myself as a result. The bike is heavy and no where's near as flickable. You don't get that light snappy feel; I miss that. The result of a heavy bike is more caution in tight corners, especially downhill. I am also slower as a result of realizing that Lithium Ion batteries are somewhat fragile and severe jarring over rough stull is just asking for damage. Finally I don't mind pulling off and stopping on an uphill to let a faster rider pass or be nice to a hiker because I can easily get started again. 
Overall my fitness is better with the e-bike because I ride it many more miles than I would without. I went from 60-70 miles a week to 120-150 miles per week. The e-bike did the same for me as it did for my wife. I am still against high powered e-bike on bike trails but the way that I use an e-bike, I am no longer apologetic about using it. My experience shows that I use anywhere from 8-12 watt hours per mile. Right now I have a set of 700 X 35C tubeless tires on Easton EA-90 wheels on my full suspension S-Works Stumpy for road, very light.


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## OCFry (Sep 6, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> According to the folks here being a nazi is much better than being an ebike rider...
> 
> View attachment 1134535


Exactly.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

dave54 said:


> I am waiting until they come out with a Warp Drive bike. I can just envision a stack of dilithium crystals in the cross tube...


That is my bike

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^ So the bike is heavy, you go slower off road, it's not as flickable, and you are more cautious downhill in corners. Now you have better fitness. Hmmm. Seems like my human powered bike is full of awesomeness. And you have one for what reason? Besides your wife issues.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

leeboh said:


> ^^^ So the bike is heavy, you go slower off road, it's not as flickable, and you are more cautious downhill in corners. Now you have better fitness. Hmmm. Seems like my human powered bike is full of awesomeness. And you have one for what reason? Besides your wife issues.


*TMB*:thumbsup:


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> States should have an Inspection Station and Stickers provided for ebike users within these regs...no sticker, no ride...money from inspection stickers should benefit trail usage and creation of additional trails or trail advocacy....it can be done, it has been done with MANY states that require ATV Stickers to ride in their state, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, etc...


There are so many problems with this idea, sounds good in theory, but would not work in practice.

1st - Who would even enforce this on the trails? My local trail system near my home has volunteer rangers that patrol a very small portion of the reserve once or twice a week for only an hour at a time. I have seen and spoken to one of these rangers once in 9 years. He told me he cannot write a ticket for anything since he is not law enforcement and just a volunteer. The rest of the preserve is "managed by CA fish n game, and they show up once a year and put up a few signs and some fencing which gets torn down immediately. Enforcement of any kind if just about nil there.

2nd - What prevents a user from taking a 250w Turbo Levo in to get a registration sticker and then not immediately modifying it to a higher wattage? And if they did that, AND there was oversight on the trails, who is going to teach the law enforcement how to tell if an eBike is or is not within spec? Furthermore, do you really want to be stopped by a ranger when riding a human powered bike so they can double check to see if you do or do not have a motor?

The list can go on, but I hungry. I personally see no issue with the 250watt pedelecs, I just don't think anyone from the eBike world has a solid answer as to how they should be managed. Companies producing them are hoping for a better to ask for forgiveness type of approach. The laws have not yet caught up to the technology. Look how long it took for laws to catch up to Quadracopter (drone) technology....

What are the proponents of eBikes doing to make sure the trails are kept open for all forms of wheeled travel that currently have access to them?


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

I'd like to hike down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon but physically cannot. Will you please install escalators so I can enjoy the outdoor just like everyone else.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Hmm, so far all of the pro-ebike statements that I've read could be equally applied to a dirt bike.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

mtnbikej said:


> I'd like to hike down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon but physically cannot. Will you please install escalators so I can enjoy the outdoor just like everyone else.


I'm sure that you could hike to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Back up though? Maybe not.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> States should have an Inspection Station and Stickers provided for ebike users


uh, no...

View attachment 1134899


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

mtnbikej said:


> I'd like to hike down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon but physically cannot. Will you please install escalators so I can enjoy the outdoor just like everyone else.


How to Plan a Grand Canyon Vacation for the Handicapped | USA Today


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

_CJ said:


> uh, no...
> 
> Yes, for safety #1 and for trail usage #2 and #3 advocating for more trails = worth every penny...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Klurejr said:


> There are so many problems with this idea, sounds good in theory, but would not work in practice.
> 
> 1st - Who would even enforce this on the trails? My local trail system near my home has volunteer rangers that patrol a very small portion of the reserve once or twice a week for only an hour at a time. I have seen and spoken to one of these rangers once in 9 years. He told me he cannot write a ticket for anything since he is not law enforcement and just a volunteer. The rest of the preserve is "managed by CA fish n game, and they show up once a year and put up a few signs and some fencing which gets torn down immediately. Enforcement of any kind if just about nil there.


Check stations at trail entrances...periodic only...



Klurejr said:


> - What prevents a user from taking a 250w Turbo Levo in to get a registration sticker and then not immediately modifying it to a higher wattage? And if they did that, AND there was oversight on the trails, who is going to teach the law enforcement how to tell if an eBike is or is not within spec? Furthermore, do you really want to be stopped by a ranger when riding a human powered bike so they can double check to see if you do or do not have a motor?


Nothing, easily done, we need rider responsibility...



Klurejr said:


> The list can go on, but I hungry. I personally see no issue with the 250watt pedelecs, I just don't think anyone from the eBike world has a solid answer as to how they should be managed. Companies producing them are hoping for a better to ask for forgiveness type of approach. The laws have not yet caught up to the technology. Look how long it took for laws to catch up to Quadracopter (drone) technology....


Me either, yes asking forgiveness later can be a double edged sword...



Klurejr said:


> What are the proponents of eBikes doing to make sure the trails are kept open for all forms of wheeled travel that currently have access to them?


Thats something we all need to be doing, I am much more aware since being here in this forum, I didn't realize the hikers, greenies, and tree huggies are pushing against mtb bikers so hard...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

SLBikes said:


> Project much? I make less then 30k per year and own 2 bikes above 6k and the only reason you are Fat is because of diet, but you seem to have a non factual mindset. You are what you eat, there is no way around that.


I would be skinny too, if I only made 30k per year...all kidding aside I do exercise (treadmill and lift wt), but knees are bad and getting worse after two operations...you are absolutely correct diet is very important and also fasting drinking plenty of water, I fail at all those, but rebound every once in awhile...I can run 5 miles, but it KILLS my right knee for a week minimum...


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Curveball said:


> I'm sure that you could hike to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Back up though? Maybe not.


Nope....got a bad ankle. After about 3 miles of hiking....no good. I'd like to be able to hike twice as far in half the amount of time.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

mtnbikej said:


> Nope....got a bad ankle. After about 3 miles of hiking....no good. I'd like to be able to hike twice as far in half the amount of time.


Ah, I see. A bad ankle would definitely keep you from hiking to the bottom.


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

mtnbikej said:


> I'd like to hike down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon but physically cannot. Will you please install escalators so I can enjoy the outdoor just like everyone else.


Can't you ride an ass?

I assume the same argument could apply to bikers who aren't fit or able enough to ride trails?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

As long as e-bikers are managed as their own user group, distinct from real bikes, I really could care less about sharing trails with them if the LM decides they're suitable. I have no problem with them standing on their own merits and don't understand why that would be an issue with anyone.

It's just the insistence of some that we all pretend they don't have a motor and they are exactly the same thing as a real bike that gets me wound up. It's not the same; don't expect everyone to pretend it is, and stop with the BS about 'I can take it anywhere bicycles are allowed, by default'. This seems to be the way the shops around here like to sell them, as even though there are practically no legal trail systems in New England to use them, every shop seems to have a bunch of them in stock. I'm sure they're not telling people the truth about where they are and aren't allowed to use them; more worried about pocketing a few bucks. That's nothing but a sure way to lose a whole lot of both real bike and e-bike access over time.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

l'oiseau said:


> Can't you ride an ass?


This, ride the pack mules in and out.

This


----------



## swingset (Oct 14, 2010)

leeboh said:


> MA rider here, illegal for almost all the public areas in the state. So poachers, die. And motorized vehicles are not allowed. Wait till the juiced up 1,2,3-000 watt ones come zipping by. Cuz Americans never mod anything and the need for speed is a fad?


I don't equate legal with right or illegal with wrong. All too frequently, the two have nothing to do with each other. That wasn't my question, what is legal and what is not?

So, let me ask again, what bothers you about e-bikes? I don't care how fast someone passes me, as long as they do so safely or without tearing up the trail.

Why would I care who's faster? Why would I care if they're expending more or less energy than I am?

I don't get the hate. If they're going by powered by unicorn farts or big fat muscular thighs, it's the same to me unless they're tearing up the trails or hurting people.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

_CJ said:


> What about riders who make more than 250W? I routinely average more than 400 watts on some segments, with peaks of more than 1500W


Strava is a really poor indication of actual power. You need to use an actual power meter.

If you can produce those numbers on a Stages or Garmin meter, you're a pro. 
Data from Chris Froome, on his way to decimating the field in a win on a notoriously hard stage of the Tour only produced average of 450-ish watts with peaks of 930 when attacking. 
Source:
Team Sky reveal Froome?s Tour de France data from stage 10 | Cyclingnews.com


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## jminus (Sep 4, 2008)

swingset said:


> I don't get the hate. If they're going by powered by unicorn farts or big fat muscular thighs, it's the same to me unless they're tearing up the trails or hurting people.


Your making the assumption that an ebike will equalize riders with less power against those with more (who are on normal bikes). What happens when the Chris Froomes of the world decide to ride ebikes as well and are able to sustain an average of 1000+ watts?

I'll tell you what happens. Trail user conflicts due to increased closing speeds.

I know some people say they are bothered by cheating. I don't care about that. I care about losing trail access.


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## SoCalEpicRyder (Apr 26, 2017)

Crankout said:


> Or, the family can slow down so she can keep up.
> 
> It's not a bike if it has a motor. Stay on the street or designated MV playgrounds.
> 
> Our local race sponsor, a bike shop, is now promoting their e-bikes at the race venue. The only upside to that is it could give me a shot at the podium!


Read up to my post to which he was responding. My wife will never be able to keep up and to slow down to her pace would be equivalent to riding circles in the driveway. Seriously. Read my post.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

SoCalEpicRyder said:


> Read up to my post to which he was responding. My wife will never be able to keep up and to slow down to her pace would be equivalent to riding circles in the driveway. Seriously. Read my post.


TBH, your wife doesn't sound like a good candidate to be on any mountain bike trail on any form of mountain bike. We are still talking about mountain bikes, right?


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## SoCalEpicRyder (Apr 26, 2017)

tiretracks said:


> TBH, your wife doesn't sound like a good candidate to be on any mountain bike trail on any form of mountain bike. We are still talking about mountain bikes, right?


TBH? Really? How pretentious. You're not the one to be telling anyone what they are or are not "a good candidate for" Maybe I should tell my wife to just go stfd on the mfn couch and eat dorritoes. As a red blooded American who spent 14 years of endangered servitude for your right to do whatever the hell makes you happy, I am highly offended by you and almost every other neo commie pos in this thread, including the OP. F IT, I'm out. Unsunscribing and never reading a troll ass post like this again.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

SoCalEpicRyder said:


> TBH? Really? How pretentious. You're not the one to be telling anyone what they are or are not "a good candidate for" Maybe I should tell my wife to just go stfd on the mfn couch and eat dorritoes. As a red blooded American who spent 14 years of endangered servitude for your right to do whatever the hell makes you happy, I am highly offended by you and almost every other neo commie pos in this thread, including the OP. F IT, I'm out. Unsunscribing and never reading a troll ass post like this again.


A might bit sensitive about well reasoned observations it seems. Commie? Who's the Troll?


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

socalepicryder said:


> tbh? Really? How pretentious. You're not the one to be telling anyone what they are or are not "a good candidate for" maybe i should tell my wife to just go stfd on the mfn couch and eat dorritoes. As a red blooded american who spent 14 years of endangered servitude for your right to do whatever the hell makes you happy, i am highly offended by you and almost every other neo commie pos in this thread, including the op. F it, i'm out. Unsunscribing and never reading a troll ass post like this again.


LOL!:lol:
You'll be back. You're an addict.


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

ARandomBiker said:


> Strava is a really poor indication of actual power. You need to use an actual power meter.
> 
> If you can produce those numbers on a Stages or Garmin meter, you're a pro.
> Data from Chris Froome, on his way to decimating the field in a win on a notoriously hard stage of the Tour only produced average of 450-ish watts with peaks of 930 when attacking.
> ...


Hense why I did my Trek Powerfly test with TWO power meters.
One measuring the rear wheel power (725 watts) and my power pedals for my power just to see how much extra the bike would put down.
I was putting out only 150.

I would not say those numbers he said are far fetched. I can easily do 1400watts, and putting out 450 is easily doable. What Froome can do it toss out that 450 watts for a VERY long time (45 minutes or so!!) I can only do 490 sustained for a minute, and 1100 for about 15 seconds.


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

My interaction with e-bikers has been minimal and not on trails (so far), but I did quickly form some impressions about potential problems.

In my city there are a lot of bike lanes and wide sidewalks that accommodate bikes as well as pedestrians. My concern with e-bikes is that they are going faster than normal bike traffic and they are (again in my limited experience in this context) very quiet. It just seems like a set up for an accident. A woman zipped by me a few weeks ago on an e-bike and I never heard her coming up behind me. She was suddenly just there, right beside me, with a pleasant word in passing.

My other thought was that an inexperienced person on an e-bike (on a trail or not) will end up going faster than their experience and reflexes (and possibly brakes) can handle.

Our urban trails typically have a heavy mix of walkers, loose dogs and mountain bikers on a weekend. Throw e-bikes into that fetid stew? AFAIK, the city does not allow any type of motorized conveyance on trails in city parks, but I also expect they have given zero thought about effective signage or enforcement.

Which brings us to this. Ultimately, land managers will make the decision on e-bikes or no e-bikes on their trails. Do you have a relationship with that entity? Are you part of an organization that builds/maintains trails in your favorite riding area and thus have greater input? I know it comes as a shock to all of us, but our opinions don't matter without organized action.

A quick google search brings up IMBA's take on the topic: 
EARLY DATA RELEASED ON IMPACTS OF EMTB USE ON TRAILS (from 2015; don't know if there is anything more current)
IMBA Motorized/Non-Motorized position paper


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

SoCalEpicRyder said:


> Read up to my post to which he was responding. My wife will never be able to keep up and to slow down to her pace would be equivalent to riding circles in the driveway. Seriously. Read my post.


Sorry; I didn't see the reference to her ability to pedal at a reasonable pace. If the e-bike equalizes her joy to yours, that is great. The issue becomes legal access for motorized vehicles such as e-bikes.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

SoCalEpicRyder said:


> TBH? Really? How pretentious. You're not the one to be telling anyone what they are or are not "a good candidate for" Maybe I should tell my wife to just go stfd on the mfn couch and eat dorritoes. As a red blooded American who spent 14 years of endangered servitude for your right to do whatever the hell makes you happy, I am highly offended by you and almost every other neo commie pos in this thread, including the OP. F IT, I'm out. Unsunscribing and never reading a troll ass post like this again.


Settle down. These here forums are not for the faint of heart.

And no flouncing allowed by order of the mods!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

SoCalEpicRyder said:


> As a red blooded American who spent 14 years of endangered servitude for your right to do whatever the hell makes you happy, I am highly offended by you and almost every other neo commie pos in this thread, including the OP. F IT, I'm out.


Commies and Nazis? Grandpa?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> TBH, your wife doesn't sound like a good candidate to be on any mountain bike trail on any form of mountain bike. We are still talking about mountain bikes, right?





SoCalEpicRyder said:


> TBH? Really? How pretentious. You're not the one to be telling anyone what they are or are not "a good candidate for" Maybe I should tell my wife to just go stfd on the mfn couch and eat dorritoes. As a red blooded American who spent 14 years of endangered servitude for your right to do whatever the hell makes you happy, I am highly offended by you and almost every other neo commie pos in this thread, including the OP. F IT, I'm out. Unsunscribing and never reading a troll ass post like this again.


Yep, same gent that want's to burn all the ebikes...I wouldn't stoop yourself down to his level to be honest..."A tiger doesn't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep"...thanks for your service to our country and defending our freedom so we can voice our opinion opnely and freely...


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

swingset said:


> I don't equate legal with right or illegal with wrong. All too frequently, the two have nothing to do with each other. That wasn't my question, what is legal and what is not?
> 
> So, let me ask again, what bothers you about e-bikes? I don't care how fast someone passes me, as long as they do so safely or without tearing up the trail.
> 
> ...


 E bikes? Great for commuting, thinking about getting one for my commute. 1 less car and all. Bother is not the word. Its ceases to be a sport once you add a motor. Mt biking is a non motorized sport. Add a motor, it is something different. Its not hate, its keeping the existing trails open we have. New England has a long and storied battle of access for mt biking, See the most recent " BIKE" article about the Ware river water shed. Not legal is all that matters. My opinion doesn't. All the ebikes are now poaching and illegal, just like all the atv and dirt bikes I see. And they are all out there. Familiar with AMC, Sierra Club and hateful old hikers in general? Denied access for no reason. The management of the state park system, after their own studies found that hiking and biking have similar impacts. Still denied access for some areas. I realize that in some areas bikes are not suitable or have some issues. Or the trail is not appropriate. Motos had access like 20 years ago, flouted the laws, abused the land, got booted out except for like 6 spots in MA. That throttle twisting crowd is just itching to get access.Think that wont happen when the floodgates open to 1,2,3,000 watt e motorcycles? Think again.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Commies and Nazis? Grandpa?


I was thinking the same thing. Commies and Nazis? Just wow. This may be a first for a single thread.

Add to the things that can't be discussed at parties: Electric bicycles.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?


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## OCFry (Sep 6, 2011)

Nazis, commies, whatever. 

I ride, hike, BC ski to get away from the f'ing motors, and now the e-bikes come crawling out of the wood work. I don't care how quiet they are, they're still motors, and they need to stay away from the trails I ride on. 

Same damn thing BC skiing, the slednecks just can't help themselves, they MUST tear up non-motorized areas...


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

OCFry said:


> Nazis, commies, whatever.
> 
> I ride, hike, BC ski to get away from the f'ing motors, and now the e-bikes come crawling out of the wood work. I don't care how quiet they are, they're still motors, and they need to stay away from the trails I ride on.
> 
> Same damn thing BC skiing, the slednecks just can't help themselves, they MUST tear up non-motorized areas...


"Skednecks" 
Webster Dictionary: Snowmobiles, a motorized sled of sorts with skis up front and a track out back that propels said sled through the deepest of snow.


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## SoCalEpicRyder (Apr 26, 2017)

*OneSpeed* said:


> ^ this





LTZ470 said:


> Lol...exactly...danged old timers...and I saw the same in Wal Mart on them there electric carts...criminal, just criminal the way they were hogging the aisles...





Zomby Woof (MCM700) said:


> Then there's that gang of old ladies too!





itsdoable said:


> One of our local riders is in his late 70's, picked up a FSR e-bike (heavy!), rides trails with us. "*With*" us, not racing us. Makes it easier to keep with the group (although he's probably in better shape that many of us!). On a 3 hour ride, he comes back with ~60% charge.
> 
> It's not about the bike.





LTZ470 said:


> Awesome...he'll have sit at home as soon as the hard core manual pedal-only nazi's finish burning the ebikes, like Hitler did the books...





swingset said:


> Meh, doesn't pick my pocket or break my leg. If his battery is faster than my legs, I let them pass.
> 
> I think more damage to our trails has occurred by Strava weenies trying to cheat their times with trail neutering.
> 
> Can I pick which to burn? I'd burn Strava down.





BCsaltchucker said:


> everyone going faster than me is a maniac and everyone going slower than me is a moron





Mookie said:


> You must be in surprisingly good shape.





swingset said:


> Honest question, what about them offends you guys that hate 'em? They're not any more powerful than your legs, about as heavy as Walgoose, so additional erosion or trail damage is unlikely or at best, no worse than an irresponsible pedeler.
> 
> They're silent, so it's not a noise issue.
> 
> ...





DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Just an FYI this thread was moved from the OC. just when things were getting fun. Let's see if you all can keep it a worthy read for those that happen upon it in 100 years. No pressure or anything.





Nat said:


> I don't have an e-bike but it occurs to me that the idea of them as "cheating" is the same argument people on foot had (have?) against people on mountain bikes.





LTZ470 said:


> Exactly...live and let live...let folks get out and have a good time as long as they are riding safely, within their limits 90%, not damaging anything, and are in general having fun with other folks...respect is a two-way street...always has been...





Procter said:


> Future generations will amazed that every thread devolved into nazi accusations back then too





LTZ470 said:


> According to the folks here being a nazi is much better than being an ebike rider...
> 
> View attachment 1134535





zorg said:


> I was passed by two older folks on ebikes a couple weeks ago that looked like noobs. And then... nothing happened and I kept riding. All had a good time.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk





bitflogger said:


> I'm in some circumstances that have me rethinking e bikes.
> 
> The experience with a disabled vets outdoors program, family member with cancer, and a terminally ill friend got me thinking e bikes might have a place and deserve some acceptance I was against earlier.





LTZ470 said:


> Exactly what the nazi's said about the books....





LTZ470 said:


> As suspected, commenting without any first hand knowledge = second hand ignorance...you're judging without the facts, thank God you're not a real Judge...
> 
> I can understand that folks are dead set against it, but bring some knowledge into your judgement and a basis that holds it's ground...I.E. Common Sense...of course common sense is not so common any longer...





tiretracks said:


> A might bit sensitive about well reasoned observations it seems. Commie? Who's the Troll?


I'm only back because this response was in my email as I'm sipping a 32 oz iced coffee. I was not referring to you as a troll. I should have said troll ass thread cuz I know the op and at least half of everyone posting or just lurking has gained ten pounds munching popcorn while everyone hates on each other and ebikes.

I use the term commie very loosely to describe what I call anti Americans. People who think their way is the way and everyone else who thinks or does differently is irrelevant and inferior. I challenge all of you to read the book Paul Reveres ride by David Hackett Fischer. It might open your eyes and mind to why you can live so freely and maybe you would become more tolerant of other people's ways. Thos country was founded on many principles, 2 of then relevant to this thread are individual liberty and personal responsibility/accountability on both the personal and societal levels.

No, I'm not addicted. I just forgot to unsubscribe. A mistake I am rectifying. Anyone who takes issue with perceived accusation or insult just PM me. I'm sure we can hug it out.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

stop with the Hitler talk... come on guys...


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> stop with the Hitler talk... come on guys...


I dunno. I find the idea of calling someone both a commie and a Nazi counterintuitive and very amusing.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Did Adolf even mountain bike?


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

I'll tell you what, e-bikes, flow trails, shuttles, carbon fiber, and lifts are making everyone lazy sissies.

I think everyone should get out riding rigid bikes up long mountains on steep gnarl trails to build some @Q%*ing character.

Now get off my lawn!


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

tiretracks said:


> Did Adolf even mountain bike?


He rode a Heilbike.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

I must say that this has been one of the most enjoyable threads that we've had here on these boards for quite awhile. Its been a real pleasure following this thread. 
Keep it up! :thumbsup:
Ya godless pinkos.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Cornfield said:


> He rode a Heilbike.


It said so in his Sieg.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> stop with the Hitler talk... come on guys...


Surely, you're familiar with Godwin's Law...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Hi LTZ470,

I've been educating myself on some of this eBike stuff and was wondering if you could help me out.

So the speed limit on some of the links you posted says the max speed for these off road is 20 mph, is that correct? You said "ebikes that are 20mph and under with 250Watt motor should be allowed" (post #52 in this thread). And you said: "250 watts set with the correct gearing = plenty enough for everyone...just adjust gearing accordingly..." ( in post #80)

Well, in my research, I came across a poster on another forum, one about eBikes, that also goes by "LTZ470". And amazingly, he also lives in Texas and works in the oil industry, just like you! So anyway, reading some of his posts have brought up some questions:

In this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49720&p=749220&hilit=LTZ470#p749220
LTZ470 is asking about a 48V controller and 48V battery being swapped in on a bike with a 36V controller and battery to "over clock" the 350W motor (that's already more watts than allowed, right?), saying "this would give it plenty of power and considerable more distance would it not?" I know "overclocking" was something computer users used to do, telling the controller to run the chip at a higher speed than it was set to run at, with the intention of gaining higher speed. He did say "the 48V Rear Wheel motor (DD) is a direct swap as well but it probably wouldn't be as suited for off road and hills as well as the geared Dapu 350W?" so he is talking about this for off-road use. Why would someone want to overclock an eBike for MTB trail use?

He also talked about overclocking here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47011&start=75
and says "So that is the same as this one on the Neo Jumper, and they actually say it can be over clocked. So the 48V battery while the motor could handle it albeit at loss of longevity, the electronics would be the challenge?" Looks like LTZ470 also tried to help out a guy messing with the "speed control" in this thread. What is the "speed control" and why would someone want to mess with it?

And in this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49767 "2013: Year of illegal fast production ebike", LTZ470 posted "Prodeco is coming out with Full Suspension later this year according to their management&#8230;but if no 750W motor it wouldn't even be a tease&#8230;."
But you had said "250 watts set with the correct gearing = plenty enough for everyone" so what's up with that? I thought 250W was the maximum legal wattage?

Appreciate any insight you have to clarify this stuff, it's a bit confusing.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Evil twin brother.


Cornfield or someone else with appropriate photoshop skills needs to make post #184 a reality, that could rival hucking kitty.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

_CJ said:


> Surely, you're familiar with Godwin's Law...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
> 
> .


Stop with the godwin's law talk. That automatically loses the argument and marks you as a PC snowflake wienie.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

SoCalEpicRyder said:


> TBH? Really? How pretentious. You're not the one to be telling anyone what they are or are not "a good candidate for" Maybe I should tell my wife to just go stfd on the mfn couch and eat dorritoes. As a red blooded American who spent 14 years of endangered servitude for your right to do whatever the hell makes you happy, I am highly offended by you and almost every other neo commie pos in this thread, including the OP. F IT, I'm out. Unsunscribing and never reading a troll ass post like this again.


Ah. So everyone who disagrees with you is a "neo commie pos".

Also, I may be wrong, but I'm fairly certain ol' tiretracks is a veteran himself.

"Red blooded American male" or not, people are free to disagree with you. You may or may not know this, but, at least in theory, you served/fought for their right to do exactly that. Crazy, eh? Really, you should be proud that we are exercising our Constitutionally guaranteed rights to speak our minds, assemble (albeit electronically) and exchange ideas, however hurtful to your poor ego they may be.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

chazpat said:


> Hi LTZ470,
> 
> I've been educating myself on some of this eBike stuff and was wondering if you could help me out.
> 
> ...


 Please do tell.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

chazpat said:


> Hi LTZ470,
> 
> I've been educating myself on some of this eBike stuff and was wondering if you could help me out.
> 
> ...


This is gold, Jerry! Gold!


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

chazpat said:


> Hi LTZ470,
> 
> I've been educating myself on some of this eBike stuff and was wondering if you could help me out.
> 
> ...


Nice detective work. The worst part of this is that this kind of stuff makes it harder for the legit Emotorbikers.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Coming soon to a trail near you:

The Stealth Hangar | Stealth Electric Bikes


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Disclaimer: I am not for ebikes on trails.

I saw this today and just had to film it I was laughing so hard. He pulled over and I took it for a spin around the parking lot. It's a pocket bike of sorts that hits speeds close to 20 mph.

Not me in the video.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

It must be frustrating for guys who get into mountain biking with an ebike, thinking they're now on the inside of some club, only to be shunned because the bike they chose doesn't quite fit the mold. From the outside looking in, I'm sure they missed the disconnect and are now bummed. I still think there's a place for Ebikes, but that place hasn't quite been defined to everyone's (anyone's?) satisfaction, yet.

I see that LTZ says he has been riding his E since 2013. That seems to coincide with his MTBR join date. 

Or, I could be full of ****. It's happened before.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Anyone that thinks e-bikers will be happy with 250 watts is kidding themselves, or intentionally deceiving as appears to be the case here.

Land managers barely have time and resources to check motorized vs. non-motorized. That is all they are realistically going to be able to do. This whole business of stickers and checking for modifications is not realistic.

This whole thing may get rammed down our throats regardless. But if mountain bikers support allowing electric motorized bicycles to be categorized the same as human-powered bicycles, then we get what we deserve.

I'm not against e-bikes having trail access where specifically approved by LMs, and not against them carving out a category that is different from gas-powered motos. But to allow them in the same category as bicycles? No.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I'd just like to know what "endangered servitude" is?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Silentfoe said:


> I'd just like to know what "endangered servitude" is?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I saw that also, but it's pretty self-explanatory, isn't it?


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Silentfoe said:


> I'd just like to know what "endangered servitude" is?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Marriage?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

One of my business partners has said that he's interested in buying an e-mtb to go hit our local (very popular and busy) trail network. I've told him that it would be frowned upon by a lot of people but he's someone who if told he can't do something will specifically go out to do just that. He wouldn't describe himself as a mountain biker so any concerns about not being "pure" or what-have-you aren't a part of his calculus. It's been causing me quite a bit of consternation.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Nat said:


> One of my business partners has said that he's interested in buying an e-mtb to go hit our local (very popular and busy) trail network. I've told him that it would be frowned upon by a lot of people but he's someone who if told he can't do something will specifically go out to do just that. He wouldn't describe himself as a mountain biker so any concerns about not being "pure" or what-have-you aren't a part of his calculus. It's been causing me quite a bit of consternation.


 Legal on the trails there?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Silentfoe said:


> I'd just like to know what "endangered servitude" is?





watermonkey said:


> Marriage?


Mawwiage is a dangewous awwangment. It's wove, twue wove...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

leeboh said:


> Legal on the trails there?


Not on the trail network that most riders use but trust me, that wouldn't stop him. He'd try to reason through it in the name of freedom because not all laws or rules make sense.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/deschutes/news-events/?cid=FSEPRD518309


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

June Bug said:


> My interaction with e-bikers has been minimal and not on trails (so far), but I did quickly form some impressions about potential problems.
> 
> In my city there are a lot of bike lanes and wide sidewalks that accommodate bikes as well as pedestrians. My concern with e-bikes is that they are going faster than normal bike traffic and they are (again in my limited experience in this context) very quiet. It just seems like a set up for an accident. A woman zipped by me a few weeks ago on an e-bike and I never heard her coming up behind me. She was suddenly just there, right beside me, with a pleasant word in passing.
> 
> My other thought was that an inexperienced person on an e-bike (on a trail or not) will end up going faster than their experience and reflexes (and possibly brakes) can handle.


Good points, and there are studies in Europe that back up your assumptions since they've been around a lot longer there, listed in this blog post.

Copenhagenize.com - Bicycle Culture by Design: The E-bike Sceptic



June Bug said:


> A quick google search brings up IMBA's take on the topic:
> EARLY DATA RELEASED ON IMPACTS OF EMTB USE ON TRAILS (from 2015; don't know if there is anything more current)
> IMBA Motorized/Non-Motorized position paper


These are from the same time, but more in depth. IMBA is well aware of the fact they need to take a position and be more involved in the debate.

The impact study itself:
http://b.3cdn.net/bikes/c3fe8a28f1a0f32317_g3m6bdt7g.pdf

Land manager Survey:
http://b.3cdn.net/bikes/8834549e2b0ec018d0_qum6b48z6.pdf


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Nat said:


> Not on the trail network that most riders use but trust me, that wouldn't stop him. He'd try to reason through it in the name of freedom.
> 
> https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/deschutes/news-events/?cid=FSEPRD518309


Even if it eventually leads to the loss of that right/freedom of access for others. Yep, he sounds like a winner.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Le Duke said:


> Even if it eventually leads to the loss of that right/freedom of access for others. Yep, he sounds like a winner.


It's killing me. Since he doesn't consider himself a part of the mountain bike community he wouldn't care if the rest of us were to lose access. Arrrgggghhh!

I had to give him a talking-to years ago when was into bushwhacking with his mountain bike across public land near town, making all kinds of tracks every which way. His reasoning was that "it's BLM land, therefore it should be open for us to use it how we see fit."


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Similar to an HOV Lane, I disagree, ebikes that are 20mph and under with 250Watt motor should be allowed...this will allow folks that are older and less fit, even fat folks to get out and get on the trails...States should have an Inspection Station and Stickers provided for ebike users within these regs...no sticker, no ride...money from inspection stickers should benefit trail usage and creation of additional trails or trail advocacy....it can be done, it has been done with MANY states that require ATV Stickers to ride in their state, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, etc...


This would mean that the industry, the lobbyists that write the legislations and the pro ebike crowd would have to admit that they are not bicycles.........


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Nat said:


> It's killing me. Since he doesn't consider himself a part of the mountain bike community he wouldn't care if the rest of us were to lose access. Arrrgggghhh!
> 
> I had to give him a talking-to years ago when was into bushwhacking with his mountain bike across public land near town, making all kinds of tracks every which way. His reasoning was that "it's BLM land, therefore it should be open for us to use it how we see fit."


 Maybe show him some facts and common usage rules?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

chuckha62 said:


> it must be frustrating for guys who get into mountain biking, thinking they're now on the inside of some club, when in reality it's a sport for loners, and the best they can hope for is a "friend" who tries to drop them every time they ride together.


fify

.


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

_CJ said:


> fify
> 
> .


Friends are overrated.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

l'oiseau said:


> Friends are overrated.


At best.


----------



## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

"Keep smilin', 
keep shinin',
Knowing you will try to drop me for sure,
Cause that's what friends are for."

Seriously, I love that my friends motivate me like that. A little trash-talk among buddies never hurt anything.


----------



## Cairns (Apr 6, 2015)

U can always boycott the big bike manufactures (trek / specialized) that make these e-bikes and let them see how important reg bike ridees fuggin hate these e-trikes on the same trails. 

I prefer to support and own a bike by much much smaller manufacture and yes they don't make e-bikes:thumbsup:


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

chazpat said:


> Hi LTZ470,
> 
> I've been educating myself on some of this eBike stuff and was wondering if you could help me out.
> 
> ...


LTZ what do you have to say for yourself?


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Cairns said:


> U can always boycott the big bike manufactures (trek / specialized) that make these e-bikes and let them see how important reg bike ridees fuggin hate these e-trikes on the same trails.
> 
> I prefer to support and own a bike by much much smaller manufacture and yes they don't make e-bikes:thumbsup:


I boycotted them and bought this.

View attachment 1135134


It's a G-bike. Makes like, 15,000 watts.


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Procter said:


> LTZ what do you have to say for yourself?


Lol. Me thinks the boy has fled, tail tightly tucked.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Procter said:


> LTZ what do you have to say for yourself?


Yes Sir that was several years ago and I had a 500 Watt Bike...I was into fast and faster...Quads/Jeep/Bikes/UTV...had a throttle only Prodeco bike...it was actually junk Prodeco was passing off as American made...and I was thinking I would super charge it not knowing any better to be perfectly honest...

I then found the Neo Jumper FS 250 Watt Mountain Bike and bought it...I started reading up on trail access and the challenges, so I kept it pedal assist only and rode economy mode only and delving further into MTB Forums and Info....

Realizing the err of my ways and thought process, I never ever spoke about my bike being electric out on the trail, kept my speed with the flow of bikes, and now fully understand that 250 Watts is MORE than enough to really enjoy MTB for me...I do like the THROTTLE Mode it has for when I am walking the bike through rock gardens or challenging trail that I unable to ride cause I can throttle it and it will pull it's on weight while I am walking beside it...believe or not it stays in Economy Mode full time on ALL the trails I ride...I no longer look for speed or faster just steady and enjoy the ride...sold ALL my fast Quads as well...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

mbmb65 said:


> Lol. Me thinks the boy has fled, tail tightly tucked.


Nothing to hide when your honest Bro....


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes Sir that was several years ago and I had a 500 Watt Bike...I was into fast and faster...Quads/Jeep/Bikes/UTV...had a throttle only Prodeco bike...it was actually junk Prodeco was passing off as American made...and I was thinking I would super charge it not knowing any better to be perfectly honest...
> 
> I then found the Neo Jumper FS 250 Watt Mountain Bike and bought it...I started reading up on trail access and the challenges, so I kept it pedal assist only and rode economy mode only and delving further into MTB Forums and Info....
> 
> Realizing the err of my ways and thought process, I never ever spoke about my bike being electric out on the trail, kept my speed with the flow of bikes, and now fully understand that 250 Watts is MORE than enough to really enjoy MTB for me...I do like the THROTTLE Mode it has for when I am walking the bike through rock gardens or challenging trail that I unable to ride cause I can throttle it and it will pull it's on weight while I am walking beside it...believe or not it stays in Economy Mode full time on ALL the trails I ride...I no longer look for speed or faster just steady and enjoy the ride...sold ALL my fast Quads as well...


But you've made the argument multiple times that people won't want excessively powerful bikes that don't belong on trails. Even if you changed your ways, it's very hard for you to successfully argue that 1500w throttle bikes with no speed cutoff will be a small niche. And, any sojourn on an ebikes site reinforces the point that modifying is both popular and easy, stickers be damned.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

The Funk Toast Band

As in this thread is Toast.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Procter said:


> But you've made the argument multiple times that people won't want excessively powerful bikes that don't belong on trails. Even if you changed your ways, it's very hard for you to successfully argue that 1500w throttle bikes with no speed cutoff will be a small niche. And, any sojourn on an ebikes site reinforces the point that modifying is both popular and easy, stickers be damned.


Yes Sir but I did not know and most folks don't know that having something like that is useless and irresponsible on MTB Trails...pure irresponsibility.
#1 They ARE too fast for the trails
#2 They are less durable for MTB period
#3 They are even heavier and require more battery
#4 Like my FS Neo Jumper I was able to upgrade the battery, to a 30 mile battery instead of a 20 mile battery, same power longer interval...
#5 MOST folks that are going to make ebikes faster are going to be riding them on the roads and byways...not on MTB Trails...

I am switching over to Bulls FS Enduro with 250W Brose Motor, Integrated Battery, quiet, stealthy, 160mm travel and Dropper Seat, 90 miles on a charge...it won't make me any faster, but I'll be quiet, efficient, and have a very smooth ride...looking forward to it...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> Hi LTZ470,
> 
> I've been educating myself on some of this eBike stuff and was wondering if you could help me out.
> 
> ...


Yes Sir that was several years ago and I had a 500 Watt Bike actually (4 yrs ago?)...I was into fast and faster...Quads/Jeep/Bikes/UTV...had a throttle only Prodeco bike...it was actually junk Prodeco was passing off as American made...and I was thinking I would super charge it not knowing any better to be perfectly honest...NEVER did anything to the bike, it was junk...

I then found the Neo Jumper FS 250 Watt Mountain Bike and bought it in 2013 (same year ditched the 500W)...I started reading up on trail access and the challenges, so I kept it pedal assist only and rode economy mode only and delving further into MTB Forums and Info....

FYI: The Neo FS Jumper with a PAS 250Watt pulls as good as the Prodeco Throttle-Only 500w, quality factor of the Neo FS Jumper is excellent...

Realizing the err of my ways and thought process, I never ever spoke about my bike being electric out on the trail, kept my speed with the flow of bikes, and now fully understand that 250 Watts is MORE than enough to really enjoy MTB for me...I do like the THROTTLE Mode it has for when I am walking the bike through rock gardens or challenging trail that I am unable to ride cause I can throttle it and it will pull it's on weight while I am walking beside it...

Actually Throttle Mode will only work when Pedal Assist is in Off...not a bad design at all...so for walking the bike especially if it is loaded with camera gear the Throttle is great...

believe or not it stays in Economy Mode full time on ALL the trails I ride...I no longer look for speed or faster just steady and enjoy the ride...sold ALL my fast Quads as well...

I have built fast engines in Quads and UTV's mainly for sand duning, takes a HUGE amount of HP to ride sand...still had same thought process when I got the first ebike, and it was erroneous, didn't realize that 250W is easily sufficient for MTB trails...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

And I'll stand by what I have said all along: 250 Watt Pedal Assist is more than ample for anyone to have a good fun ride out on the trails...and will be even better as the bikes get lighter...BUT it is plenty fast, plenty responsive, and DOES NOT hurt the trails, although I do not ride in mud at all...


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> And I'll stand by what I have said all along: 250 Watt Pedal Assist is more than ample for anyone to have a good fun ride out on the trails...and will be even better as the bikes get lighter...BUT it is plenty fast, plenty responsive, and DOES NOT hurt the trails, although I do not ride in mud at all...


Soooo, where do you ride this thing? Most places they're only legal on OHV (motorcycle/4x4) trails.

.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

_CJ said:


> Soooo, where do you ride this thing? Most places they're only legal on OHV (motorcycle/4x4) trails.
> 
> .


backroads, trails, gravel roads, MUT, any where it's legal...sometimes just ride around the neighborhood block visiting folks...


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Well I think we've all learned an important lesson here today folks. 

Despite assurances, many ebike users will want faster more powerful ebikes and they will surely modify them to achieve it, despite any stickers or legal / illegal grey areas..... JUST LIKE WE SEE IN ANY OTHER PRODUCT ENTHUSIAST COMMUNITY. 

Car tuner crowd. 
4x4 crowd. 
Sport bike lovers. 
Gun lovers. 
Etc. 

They all have this in common.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

LTZ?


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Crankout said:


> LTZ?


Crankout?


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Procter said:


> Well I think we've all learned an important lesson here today folks.
> 
> Despite assurances, many ebike users will want faster more powerful ebikes and they will surely modify them to achieve it, despite any stickers or legal / illegal grey areas..... JUST LIKE WE SEE IN ANY OTHER PRODUCT ENTHUSIAST COMMUNITY.


They will also cloak then in veiled terminology to make them appear to be benign. An earlier poster suggested the best course of action would be to boycott the companies selling them and that is beginning to look like the best answer at this point.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Ebikes have a motor. That makes them motorized. That means they should not be allowed on trails that don't allow motorized vehicles.

There are trails that do allow motorized vehicles. Want to ride your ebike? Go ride on those. Stay off the ones you're not allowed on.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> backroads, *trails*, gravel roads, MUT, any where it's legal...sometimes just ride around the neighborhood block visiting folks...


Okay, let's try this again. Specifically, which MTB trails do you ride? You've made reference to how your bike rides on MTB trails...which ones? e-bikes are banned on all non-OHV trails in national forest. Do you have city or state trails that you're riding on legally? If so, where? Which ones?

.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> I then found the Neo Jumper FS 250 Watt Mountain Bike and bought it in 2013 (same year ditched the 500W)...I started reading up on trail access and the challenges, so I kept it pedal assist only and rode economy mode only and delving further into MTB Forums and Info....
> 
> Realizing the err of my ways and thought process, I never ever spoke about my bike being electric out on the trail, kept my speed with the flow of bikes, and now fully understand that 250 Watts is MORE than enough to really enjoy MTB for me.
> 
> ...


Ok, LTZ, then I will invite you to take the next step in your learning process: lose the motor altogether. It's the next logical progression of what you say you have learned.

It will be more challenging, more difficult, you won't be able to go as far, you'll be more tired, you'll be frustrated at times. Stick with it and you will feel pride in what you have accomplished, more satisfied with yourself, lose weight, be healthier, etc. I'm 100% serious in this and I challenge you to take this next step. And you can get plenty of support from this site. You can keep the eBike for riding gravel and backroads, that's where they belong.


----------



## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

tiretracks said:


> They will also cloak then in veiled terminology to make them appear to be benign. An earlier poster suggested the best course of action would be to boycott the companies selling them and that is beginning to look like the best answer at this point.


I'm trying to imagine what boycotting those companies would really accomplish.

Perhaps those companies will see the sales of real bikes continue to go down, but what is that going to do?

It's going to encourage them to produce and push more e-bikes, because it's the only category making money.

And they'll still sell those higher margin bread-and-butter bikes to newer riders who don't even realize this e-bike thing is an issue.

I get the idea behind not wanting to spend your money with a company you don't like for whatever reason, but to think it's going to affect the growth of the e-bike market or keep e-bikes off the trails is a bit of wishful thinking, imo.

If we really don't want e-bikes on our trails, we would be better served to put our efforts into taking more active roles in our local land management organizations.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> Ok, LTZ, then I will invite you to take the next step in your learning process: lose the motor altogether. It's the next logical progression of what you say you have learned.
> 
> It will be more challenging, more difficult, you won't be able to go as far, you'll be more tired, you'll be frustrated at times. Stick with it and you will feel pride in what you have accomplished, more satisfied with yourself, lose weight, be healthier, etc. I'm 100% serious in this and I challenge you to take this next step. And you can get plenty of support from this site. You can keep the eBike for riding gravel and backroads, that's where they belong.


No way dude, I carry 15-20 lbs of Cameras and Acc's almost every time I go, minimum 5 lbs...emtbike is perfect for me...to each his own...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

_CJ said:


> Okay, let's try this again. Specifically, which MTB trails do you ride? You've made reference to how your bike rides on MTB trails...which ones? e-bikes are banned on all non-OHV trails in national forest. Do you have city or state trails that you're riding on legally? If so, where? Which ones?
> 
> .


Don't think so bro, theres not any room left in my back for knives...lol...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Deep Thought said:


> I'm trying to imagine what boycotting those companies would really accomplish.
> 
> Perhaps those companies will see the sales of real bikes continue to go down, but what is that going to do?
> 
> ...


Why not both? I couldn't care any less if one or two of these sellouts fold, money talks.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> Don't think so bro, theres not any room left in my back for knives...lol...


I don't know what that means. I guess you're just admitting to riding non-motorized trails illegally. So why worry about any of it? Why carry on this charade? Why even bother yourself with this thread? You've done nothing to improve the image of e-bikers. Better to just keep your mouth shut, and hope you don't get caught.


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

tiretracks said:


> Why not both? I couldn't care any less if one or two of these sellouts fold, money talks.


My point is that they aren't going to fold.

Money does talk. And when e-bikes are the only category bringing money to the company, they'll just sell more e-bikes. And judging by the current BPSA efforts to affect e-bike legislation, they'll use that money they're making off e-bikes to increase their influence and get more areas opened up to e-bikes.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> Why not both? I couldn't care any less if one or two of these sellouts fold, money talks.


I like the idea and won't support those companies personally, but there's a big problem with it.

The simple fact that e-bikes make cycling easier is too much of an attraction for too many people. Let's face it, humans seem very prone to take the path of least resistance and e-bikes offer that path. I have no idea how they will end up being managed, but dearly hope that land managers don't end up closing off all singletrack.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Deep Thought said:


> My point is that they aren't going to fold.
> 
> Money does talk. And when e-bikes are the only category bringing money to the company, they'll just sell more e-bikes. And judging by the current BPSA efforts to affect e-bike legislation, they'll use that money they're making off e-bikes to increase their influence and get more areas opened up to e-bikes.


Some of them are on the precipice of doing just that. That's why they're pimping these things in the first place. There's a big correction coming and some of these companies are going to wind up being just another big box brand.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

LTZ470 said:


> Don't think so bro, theres not any room left in my back for knives...lol...


Virtually all of the trails I ride, my home trails, are closed to motorcycles, so I don't expect to see any motorcycles. I've seen one in almost 30 years of riding here. So can you honestly say that you don't ride your motorcycle illegally at times? Around here, I reckon vigilante justice would be swift indeed.


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

The thing is, pimping these things is working for a lot of these companies. It's not going to turn them into a big box brand. It's going to turn them into companies who make and sell a lot more e-bikes. 

sales down > pimp e-bikes > sales back up due to e-bikes > push more e-bikes

The decline in regular bike sales due to a few upset riders refusing to buy bikes that they probably wouldn't have ever bought anyway isn't going to be enough to offset the gains these companies are seeing in the e-bike category. 

I'm not trying to tell you how to spend your money, just pointing out that your boycotting is highly unlikely to affect these companies in the way you would like.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Are we done yet?


Thread


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I suspect Crankout really didn't anticipate this big of a response. Lots of pent up feelings about eBikes. Give the man some socks!


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

I don't see ebikes taking over. There's a huge stigma to riding them in the MTB community, and I think one of the primary drivers for toy markets like the MTB market is group perception, i.e. what the majority think is "cool."

I suspect ebikes will become like mopeds. Sure, they will be around in the future, and a few people will buy them. But people who ride ebikes will be looked upon the same way as people who ride mopeds - kind of ridiculous. But really, I could care less what you do in your spare time as long as it doesn't hurt me, so have at it, be ridiculous.

Which brings me to why I am very much against motorized bikes of any kind, including ebikes, being allowed on trails where motorized bikes are not allowed. The risk of of the trails being ripped up by overpowered e-monsters is too great. I am also concerned that MTBs could lose access to existing trails due to the damage these e-monsters might inflict.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

kpdemello said:


> But people who ride ebikes will be looked upon the same way as people who ride mopeds - kind of ridiculous. But really, I could care less what you do in your spare time as long as it doesn't hurt me, so have at it, be ridiculous.


This reminds me of an old joke. I'll change it up little so it's more PC.

What do mopeds and ebikes have in common?

They're both fun to ride till your friends see you.


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

kpdemello said:


> I don't see ebikes taking over. There's a huge stigma to riding them in the MTB community, and I think one of the primary drivers for toy markets like the MTB market is group perception, i.e. what the majority think is "cool."
> 
> I suspect ebikes will become like mopeds. Sure, they will be around in the future, and a few people will buy them. But people who ride ebikes will be looked upon the same way as people who ride mopeds - kind of ridiculous. But really, I could care less what you do in your spare time as long as it doesn't hurt me, so have at it, be ridiculous.
> 
> Which brings me to why I am very much against motorized bikes of any kind, including ebikes, being allowed on trails where motorized bikes are not allowed. The risk of of the trails being ripped up by overpowered e-monsters is too great. I am also concerned that MTBs could lose access to existing trails due to the damage these e-monsters might inflict.


Mopeds aren't cool because they are primarily compared to motorcycles, and motorcycles are far superior in power and/or handling.

MTBs vs. Ebikes: different situation.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

kpdemello said:


> I don't see ebikes taking over. There's a huge stigma to riding them in the MTB community, and I think one of the primary drivers for toy markets like the MTB market is group perception, i.e. what the majority think is "cool."


Highly doubtful. I live in a town where you're publicly ridiculed if you don't compost the correct way, or don't wear ultra-locally sourced, artisinal clothing and recycled footwear, yet I've seen ebikes ridden illegally on local trails.

The whole problem with the concept of "The Mountain Bike Community", is that there really isn't one. Yes, the groupies that frequent the local bike shops and participate with the local IMBA chapter believe that what they're seeing really IS the mountain biking community in their area, but its just a small cross section of the total number or riders that are actually out there. And that's the rub, because collectively, as a "community" we're all going to pay a price through trail access loss. But the e-bike rider that "might" be influenced by discussion on these forums or alter his probability of riding an embt as a function of peer pressure, probably doesn't even know that these discussions are happening, or realize that there is a peer group that might disagree with embts on their trails. Ignorance IS bliss. And don't expect the LBS selling these things to enlighten the cash cow otherwise.


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## zorg (Jul 1, 2004)

The hand wringing is super strong with the HOBAs 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

zorg said:


> The hand wringing is super strong with the HOBAs
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


As is the hyperbole with the emopes.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Breaking News: This just in. . . E-Bikes - Mtbr.com


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Breaking News: This just in. . . E-Bikes - Mtbr.com


Get lost?

Off Camber (off topic) - Mtbr.com


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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Are we done yet?
> 
> Thread


I know. Can't we all agree that ebikes just suck?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LiquidSpin (Mar 26, 2012)

ravewoofer said:


> I know. Can't we all agree that ebikes just suck?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why? I've heard of all the many different reasons e-bikes suck I'll give you a few:

a. They promote laziness
b. Destroys trails
c. It's cheating

The "laziness" reason is how someone extends their way of life onto others. Not everyone is a born an athlete. Not everyone wants to be in perfect shape. Not everyone has the time to become a bad ass warrior on 2 wheels. If someone wants to explore but can't due to physical reasons, maybe they have a heart condition or asthma or they have a bad back, or maybe they're an older person just getting into off road riding.

Just to name a few. The only plausible excuse as to why e-bikes can be bad is they can potentially damage trails quicker. This argument hasn't been proven yet. It's not like comparing an e-bike to a motor-cross/Dirt bike. We do know it's bad if you take one of those on to shared hiking/riding trails and it's also SUPER unsafe.

Cheating? It's not cheating if you're not racing each other.

--------------

I personally believe that e-bikes allow more people to get on 2 wheels. I think where e-bikes really shine is in city/urban use. Sure I would love to tell everyone just to suck it up and get stronger and you'll be healthier over all. That's not realistic and if people were already so determined to do so there wouldn't be a need for e-bikes whatsoever. As we all would be commuting to work on a bike instead of cars. People are different so accept it.

e-bikes allow MORE people to bike to and from work. Maybe they live 15+ miles from their job? Sure, I can do 15 miles but every day in every possible weather condition? It wouldn't be much fun and for most people they would eventually give up.

e-bikes can also be a great addition to mountain biking. Imagine if you will you wanna make a nice video...well do you want your friends to ride with heavy camera equipment just to film you shredding? Time to pony up some $$$ to persuade them to do so.

Another example is e-bikes make it a lot more easy for trail builders to get from one part of the trail to the next.

All in all *NO ONE IS FORCING* you to ride or buy an e-bike. Stick with your pedal powered bike.

I think a lot of people hate on e-bikes because they can imagine someone on an ebike passing them up a hill with ease. The thought of this makes their blood boil. I could understand if you were racing but if not let it go.

That's my 2cents.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LiquidSpin said:


> Why? I've heard of all the many different reasons e-bikes suck I'll give you a few:
> 
> a. They promote laziness
> b. Destroys trails
> ...


 Bikes don't have motors. Heart condition, bad back? Maybe biking isn't for you? Gee older person or someone out of shape? That's like half of( or more) the US. Start out on bike paths and dirt roads just like everybody else. E bikes for commuting are awesome, no one here is against that. Moto cross e bikes? Already here. As well as controller mods, fake stickers and after market tweaks.


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## LiquidSpin (Mar 26, 2012)

You can't just tell someone they can't do something because they are disabled or have a certain condition. If technology makes it possible then why not? There are people who just want to explore and enjoy riding at the same time. Not everyone is out for PR's and Strava KOMs. 

"Gee older person or someone out of shape? That's like half of ( or more) of the US. Start out on bike paths and dirt roads just like everybody else."

I guess you missed the part I wrote:
Not everyone wants to be in perfect shape. Not everyone has the time to become a bad ass warrior on 2 wheels.

You shouldn't act all high and mighty and pretend that everyone has the same lifestyle choices you do. Be a little more open minded.

Bikes don't have motors? ummm are we not on the topic of e-bikes? I guess motorcycles and dirt bikes are not bikes? Bikes do have motors haha they're called e-bikes.:thumbsup:

Hell, if you wanna really argue about what a bike is...you should know that the first bike ever invented didn't even have pedals or a drivetrain. It also wasn't even called a bicycle until years later.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LiquidSpin said:


> You can't just tell someone they can't do something because they are disabled or have a certain condition.


You're absolutely right!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LiquidSpin said:


> Bikes don't have motors? ummm are we not on the topic of e-bikes? I guess motorcycles and dirt bikes are not bikes? Bikes do have motors haha they're called e-bikes.:thumbsup:


Correct. Bikes can have motors, bicycles don't.


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## LiquidSpin (Mar 26, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> Correct. Bikes can have motors, bicycles don't.


"Bicycle" vs "bike" they are the same. dirtBIKE vs motorCYCLE vs eBIKE

they are all 2 wheeled machines but separated into sub categories.

So when you say bikes can have motors and bicycles don't or can't that isn't true.

unless we all have been wrong and we should be calling Harley's motorBIKES instead of motorCYCLES.

I've had this same argument before a while back with a kid in a bike store...the only difference was I had a whole bike shop mechanics backing me up about the term bike vs bicycle.


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## LiquidSpin (Mar 26, 2012)

Cornfield said:


> You're absolutely right!


Right ON!

I'm always inspired and amazed when people don't see their disabilities and prove others wrong. Thanks for posting this!


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

*Reality check for e-bike usage where I live...*

SFFTS Electric Bikes Position Statement | Santa Fe Fat Tire Society

View attachment 1135356


This is how it is and therefore those of us in NM have nothing to fear about e-bikes on our trails.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LiquidSpin said:


> unless we all have been wrong and we should be calling Harley's motorBIKES instead of motorCYCLES.


How many people call a Harley a bicycle? Zero. MOTORcycle.

First there were bicycles. Then someone bolted on a motor and motorbikes were born. Dumb semantics are dumb but the distinction makes it easy and simple for (most) everyone to convey what they mean during a conversation without confusion.


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

It is worth saying again...

"...the power source is the most important aspect of the bike, and if you add a motor to a bicycle, the motor becomes the star of the show." PinkBike

"The use of a motor whether internal or electric would require changing the classification to a motorized use." IMBA


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LiquidSpin said:


> You can't just tell someone they can't do something because they are disabled or have a certain condition. If technology makes it possible then why not? There are people who just want to explore and enjoy riding at the same time. Not everyone is out for PR's and Strava KOMs.
> 
> "Gee older person or someone out of shape? That's like half of ( or more) of the US. Start out on bike paths and dirt roads just like everybody else."
> 
> ...


 No issues with someone who has a legit ADA HP, none at all. Check out " other powered mobility devices" The ADA gives wide and sweeping rights for those with a HP. Lifestyle? I just ride bikes. That is all. No kom, attitude or warrior here. Some of my bikes don't even have a bike computer on them. All one has to do is pedal. Even I coast downhill. I'm very open minded. I also realize that adding a motor to a bicycle makes it something else. And where I live in MA, no motorized vehicles allowed on multi use trails for the most part. The is the mountain bike forum. E bikes have motors, they are not bicycles anymore. As recognized by the DOT, land managers, land owners and trail stewards. Uggg. Fat old and lazy is not a HP. Not everybody gets a participation trophy. Wait it's so hard, I need a motor? Yikes.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LiquidSpin said:


> Right ON!
> 
> I'm always inspired and amazed when people don't see their disabilities and prove others wrong. Thanks for posting this!


 And no motor needed.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

chuckha62 said:


> I suspect Crankout really didn't anticipate this big of a response. Lots of pent up feelings about eBikes. Give the man some socks!


I really didn't and thought it would be dumped.

I stick with my original thesis: I was miffed to have a pseudo-biker rail past me while I was working my tail off. I get it...that's my issue, but they can stick eat my nut sag on their unregulated mopeds.

On the rational end, the issue becomes that of access. They are not bikes in the traditional sense and need to be treated as such.

And once again, fugg them for taking the easy way out (with all due respect to Marty Ashton).


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> As is the hyperbole with the emopes.


Harried Outspoken Broadcasting Associates?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

LiquidSpin said:


> Why? I've heard of all the many different reasons e-bikes suck I'll give you a few:
> 
> a. They promote laziness
> b. Destroys trails
> ...


Agreed 110%....disagree with folks that don'y want to share trails....it's ridiculous...


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Agreed 110%....disagree with folks that don'y want to share trails....it's ridiculous...


 Share? Currently not legal. I want to drive my tank or F 1 car on the hiway too. Not legal. Or just buy your own land and make your own rules, easy. In MA there is a reason the motos got kick off. Still is.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> Agreed 110%....disagree with folks that don'y want to share trails....it's ridiculous...


Some of us have zero issue with sharing the trail, and might actually consider an ebike someday.....WHEN THEY'RE LEGAL on mountain bike trails.

.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I've been boycotting Specialized for years, I'm pretty sure that's why they were forced to get into ebikes. 

And really, when did we ever get so concerned about the health of the bike industry? I've watched bike companies come and go for the last 30 years, you'll always have plenty of choices. 

If you want to make a difference in anything relating to mtbs, act locally. Join your local trail org, go to public meetings, contact your state reps, make your opinion heard. On the local level, what the industry wants means nothing, zero, nada. Ads in a magazine are not presented to parks depts as opinion. Land managers could care less whose business is profitable. I've never seen a representative from a bike company, speaking for that company, show up for anything. Hell, even shop owners here barely make their presence known. 

Unless they're someones spouse or partner, I really don't expect to see a wave of new riders on emtbs on singletrack, for one thing, they're too damn expensive, even worse than mtbs. How many people will drop $4-10K for a first bike? You can of course buy a cheap one, which just like a big box store mtb is crap to ride and not up to the job, it will flail itself to pieces and end up in the garage. Almost all emtb riders will be existing mtb riders. 

There will be both people that build kit bikes for cheap and moto guys who want to try to get a moto lite experience on high powered bikes, but they will be in the minority. 

Almost all new riders on ebikes will use them on the road and bike paths and that's where the most growth will be, just like elsewhere in the world.

The smartest long term strategy for the bike industry would have been to keep Class 1 at 250w/16mph, target it alone for mtb access and Class 2/3 at 750w for everywhere else. The whole "Hey, they're just bikes" strategy is going to backfire on the local level once 750w, pedalling optional ebikes start showing up in numbers.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

LiquidSpin said:


> You can't just tell someone they can't do something because they are disabled or have a certain condition...


Sure you can. Even the Americans with Disabilities Act allows an employer to discriminate against people who are unable to perform essential job functions to due a disability. The question is whether there is a reasonable accommodation that will allow the person to do the job. If there isn't, the employer can legally not hire you because of a disability. (See e.g. construction companies can choose not to hire paraplegics to do heavy construction work).

See also: those signs on amusement park rides that say "people with heart conditions or pregnant women should not ride this ride"

That being said, I could care less if someone wants to get on an ebike and commute to work, ride on the roads, or even on trails where motorized vehicles are allowed. But things with motors are not allowed on certain trails for good reasons. Ebikes have a motors. I see no reason why they should be allowed on trails where motors are not allowed.

The burden is on the ebike advocates to prove that their motor vehicle won't damage the trails. MTB advocacy groups fought long and hard to secure access in many areas, and such groups continue to prove their worth by contributing, building and maintaining sustainable trails. Ebike riders are not in that group, and should not be allowed to deceptively piggyback their motor bikes onto what the MTB community has built.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Harryman said:


> The smartest long term strategy for the bike industry would have been to keep Class 1 at 250w/16mph, target it alone for mtb access and Class 2/3 at 750w for everywhere else. The whole "Hey, they're just bikes" strategy is going to backfire on the local level once 750w, pedalling optional ebikes start showing up in numbers.


Agreed Harry, that would have been the smartest move of all...of course hindsight is 20/20...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Let's take a look back at this thread.

LZT470 has been a big poster on the pro eBike should be allowed on non-motorized trails side. A little research revealed that in the past, he had posted on an eBike forum asking for advice on modifying his eBike for more power and speed, he also attempted to help another user do likewise and commented in an illegally fast eBike thread about the need for higher wattage. When called out on this, LTZ stated "Yes Sir that was several years ago and I had a 500 Watt Bike...I was into fast and faster…" and "Realizing the err of my ways and thought process, I never ever spoke about my bike being electric out on the trail, kept my speed with the flow of bikes, and now fully understand that 250 Watts is MORE than enough to really enjoy MTB for me.." Some other posters then asked him what trails he was riding as the ones in his area apparently are not legal for any eBikes. While stating again that he rode trails, unless I missed it, he never would say what trails he rode his eBike on.

I think we can then surmise that LZT rides his eBike illegally on trails on which they are not permitted. And that is the issue. He wants to ride his eBike on trails where they are not allowed and by human nature, he justifies it to be ok, "they should be allowed so it's ok". And likewise, other eBike riders will justify to themselves that "eBikes should be allowed with more power and speed", just like LZT used to. And they will modify their eBikes to have more power and speed. And there is no real way to regulate this once we say a motor is ok on non-motorized trails. I see the word "stealth" used a lot when talking about eBikes. Why is this? Are they embarrassed to be riding an eBike? Or do they have the desire to be able to ride them where they are not allowed? I'm sure the future will bring us eBikes very difficult to distinguish from actual bicycles and it will be an issue. And what happens when technology makes the eBikes lighter? They will be faster. Would the regulations be changed, dropping the allowed wattage to keep the speed down? Doubtful.

And now I am going to state that I believe eBikes deteriorate trails, at least they will if allowed where I ride. How can I say that, studies have shown they don't, you say. Well, the trails I ride are pretty tight singletrack in the forests in a metropolitan area. You pull into the parking lot and it is packed, a lot of cars and a lot of bicycle riders. Amazingly, the trails do not seem crowded. Why? Because the trails are directional loops. Sure, I catch up with slower riders and some faster riders catch up with me. But it is amazing how seldom that happens, the trails really do not feel crowded. As I mentioned, these trails are pretty tight in the woods, passing can be a bit of an issue. I'm fine riding behind someone until we get to a section of the trail that is a little wider, usually a very short stretch. I would much rather do that than ride off trail to pass, as we know that leads to widening of the trail. So what happens where you allow eBikes which are able to climb faster than a bicycle? You'll end up having a lot more instances of passing, especially when going uphill considering time wise, that's where mountain bikers spend the majority of their time. And for that pass to occur, eBikes will have to ride off trail to make the pass. Bye-bye nice singletrack.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> Let's take a look back at this thread.
> 
> LZT470 has been a big poster on the pro eBike should be allowed on non-motorized trails side. A little research revealed that in the past, he had posted on an eBike forum asking for advice on modifying his eBike for more power and speed, he also attempted to help another user do likewise and commented in an illegally fast eBike thread about the need for higher wattage. When called out on this, LTZ stated "Yes Sir that was several years ago and I had a 500 Watt Bike...I was into fast and faster&#8230;" and "Realizing the err of my ways and thought process, I never ever spoke about my bike being electric out on the trail, kept my speed with the flow of bikes, and now fully understand that 250 Watts is MORE than enough to really enjoy MTB for me.." Some other posters then asked him what trails he was riding as the ones in his area apparently are not legal for any eBikes. While stating again that he rode trails, unless I missed it, he never would say what trails he rode his eBike on.
> 
> ...


And I still say you over thinking and exaggerating the emtb's...ALL of the FS Ebikes with brose are 250 watt and are the norm for bike trails...they will not hurt trails anymore or any less, if you haven't ridden one an a trail don't talk until you have and then tell the truth about how much you hurt the trail...Pro Riders put out MORE torque than the average person on an Emtb...
EVERYONE including you and everyone else MUST/SHAL/WILL ride within their skill set, folks ain't stupid, yes there are going to be some rogues, but minimal and will be addressed quickly on ANY trail I ride...I ride with my family lotsa times and we all stay close, I'm the only one with an emtb...we enjoy it, help others if they need it, talk to others out on the trail and NOBODY GIVES a RAT's AR$E THAT I AM RIDING AN EBIKE...lol...except the forum junkies it seems...
Do you ever drive over the speed limit...ever do a rolling stop...run thru a yellow caution light...use your cell phone while driving...
I can safely say all's ya'll's hippocrit's....


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

LTZ470 said:


> And I still say you over thinking and exaggerating the emtb's...ALL of the FS Ebikes with brose are 250 watt and are the norm for bike trails...they will not hurt trails anymore or any less, if you haven't ridden one an a trail don't talk until you have and then tell the truth about how much you hurt the trail...Pro Riders put out MORE torque than the average person on an Emtb...
> EVERYONE including you and everyone else MUST/SHAL/WILL ride within their skill set, folks ain't stupid, yes there are going to be some rogues, but minimal and will be addressed quickly on ANY trail I ride...I ride with my family lotsa times and we all stay close, I'm the only one with an emtb...we enjoy it, help others if they need it, talk to others out on the trail and NOBODY GIVES a RAT's AR$E THAT I AM RIDING AN EBIKE...lol...except the forum junkies it seems...
> Do you ever drive over the speed limit...ever do a rolling stop...run thru a yellow caution light...use your cell phone while driving...
> I can safely say all's ya'll's hippocrit's....


Why are we hypocrites?


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Do you ever drive over the speed limit...ever do a rolling stop...run thru a yellow caution light...use your cell phone while driving...
> I can safely say all's ya'll's hippocrit's....


Responses such as these are what prompted me to just burn up $30 worth of inkjet ink in the process of printing out the regional BLM's Resource Management Plan, complete with maps outlining legal trail use, their policy towards embts = motorized vehicles, and the trails on which embts are prohibited . The 1 pound, 89 page document will now permanently live in my camelback, to be offered up to riders illegally riding embts on non-motorized trails. I will film myself informing them that they are illegally riding embt's on trails that are not designated motorized, and will turn that footage into the local BLM office. Then that footage will be posted onto the local trail group/trail condition facebook pages, so that local riders will know what douchebag is poaching trails on a moped. 
I will also volunteer my time to the local BLM office to hang the below signs on as many trails as they'll let me.
View attachment 1135392


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

LTZ470 said:


> ALL of the FS Ebikes with brose are 250 watt and are the norm for bike trails...they will not hurt trails anymore or any less...


You might be right, but then again, you might not. MTB advocacy groups fought all kinds of battles for access. All kinds of studies were done to determine MTB impact on trails. Where are the ebike studies? Why should we just blindly accept your assertion without data?

You know what, I googled it. There have been some preliminary studies. Turns out class 1 ebikes "may lead to more soil displacement under certain conditions, such as through turns, including bermed turns; on ascents and descents; and where there are abrupt changes in trail conditions." However the results are preliminary, and more studies need to be done. BTW this only includes class 1 ebikes, which appear pretty limited in terms of power output. Ebikes with more power presumably would cause more damage.

https://www.imba.com/news/eMTB-early-study-results
http://b.3cdn.net/bikes/c3fe8a28f1a0f32317_g3m6bdt7g.pdf

Bottom line: get off my lawn.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

watermonkey said:


> Responses such as these are what prompted me to just burn up $30 worth of inkjet ink in the process of printing out the regional BLM's Resource Management Plan, complete with maps outlining legal trail use, their policy towards embts = motorized vehicles, and the trails on which embts are prohibited . The 1 pound, 89 page document will now permanently live in my camelback, to be offered up to riders illegally riding embts on non-motorized trails. I will film myself informing them that they are illegally riding embt's on trails that are not designated motorized, and will turn that footage into the local BLM office. Then that footage will be posted onto the local trail group/trail condition facebook pages, so that local riders will know what douchebag is poaching trails on a moped.
> I will also volunteer my time to the local BLM office to hang the below signs on as many trails as they'll let me.
> View attachment 1135392


We can all see how you gents ride within your limits...lol...hippocrit...
https://www.google.com/search?q=peo...ICCgD&biw=1440&bih=776#tbm=isch&q=mtb+crashes


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Yep, we can see how you guys show folks you are safe and don't tear up any trails...BS...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> Yep, we can see how you guys show folks you are safe and don't tear up any trails...BS...


Are we going to start cherry picking youtube videos because emotorcycles are very well represented there. You are the worst enemy of emotorbikes by the way, thank you for driving home the reasons to exclude them.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Are we going to start cherry picking youtube videos because emotorcycles are very well represented there. You are the worst enemy of emotorbikes by the way, thank you for driving home the reasons to exclude them.


No cherry picking required just search mtb crashes...hit images or videos...you'll see trail damage and carnage everywhere...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Yawn....


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> No cherry picking required just search mtb crashes...hit images or videos...you'll see trail damage and carnage everywhere...


What a sad piece of work you are. Chazpat has pretty much handed you your ass and documented that you are a liar willing to switch up the story and your personal ethos on the fly. Maybe it's time to rethink your approach.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> No cherry picking required just search mtb crashes...hit images or videos...you'll see trail damage and carnage everywhere...


Oh yeah, and adding the ability to go fast uphill and overtake slower riders easier will help with that.:skep:


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

LTZ470 said:


> No cherry picking required just search mtb crashes...hit images or videos...you'll see trail damage and carnage everywhere...


So, now you're argument supporting you riding your motorcycle on illegal trails is the idea that mountain bikes damage trails? Really? Who knew. Your slipping. Seriously, you're thick.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

watermonkey said:


> Responses such as these are what prompted me to just burn up $30 worth of inkjet ink in the process of printing out the regional BLM's Resource Management Plan, complete with maps outlining legal trail use, their policy towards embts = motorized vehicles, and the trails on which embts are prohibited . The 1 pound, 89 page document will now permanently live in my camelback, to be offered up to riders illegally riding embts on non-motorized trails. I will film myself informing them that they are illegally riding embt's on trails that are not designated motorized, and will turn that footage into the local BLM office. Then that footage will be posted onto the local trail group/trail condition facebook pages, so that local riders will know what douchebag is poaching trails on a moped.
> I will also volunteer my time to the local BLM office to hang the below signs on as many trails as they'll let me.
> View attachment 1135392


There's already official stickers if you need any: https://www.rockartsigns.com/d72/search/node/10-969


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Harryman said:


> There's already official stickers if you need any: https://www.rockartsigns.com/d72/search/node/10-969


Perfect!


----------



## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> And I still say you over thinking and exaggerating the emtb's...ALL of the FS Ebikes with brose are 250 watt and are the norm for bike trails...they will not hurt trails anymore or any less, if you haven't ridden one an a trail don't talk until you have and then tell the truth about how much you hurt the trail...Pro Riders put out MORE torque than the average person on an Emtb...
> EVERYONE including you and everyone else MUST/SHAL/WILL ride within their skill set, folks ain't stupid, yes there are going to be some rogues, but minimal and will be addressed quickly on ANY trail I ride...I ride with my family lotsa times and we all stay close, I'm the only one with an emtb...we enjoy it, help others if they need it, talk to others out on the trail and NOBODY GIVES a RAT's AR$E THAT I AM RIDING AN EBIKE...lol...except the forum junkies it seems...
> Do you ever drive over the speed limit...ever do a rolling stop...run thru a yellow caution light...use your cell phone while driving...
> I can safely say all's ya'll's hippocrit's....


You should stay in Texas, where apparently you live. There is almost no public land in TX, so you have no experience with how public lands function and are managed.

I am quite confident the whole issue around e-bike restrictions on public land is totally abstract for you. There is nothing anyone can say to you. You have proven yourself in public--this forum is public--to be a transgressor of the law. You will eventually get caught riding that e-bike illegally.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> You should stay in Texas, where apparently you live. There is almost no public land in TX, so you have no experience with how public lands function and are managed.
> 
> I am quite confident the whole issue around e-bike restrictions on public land is totally abstract for you. There is nothing anyone can say to you. You have proven yourself in public--this forum is public--to be a transgressor of the law. You will eventually get caught riding that e-bike illegally.


And eventually you are going to get caught speeding, running a stop sign, using a cell phone while driving, or running a red light, are you going to stay awake all night worrying about it hippocrit?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

mbmb65 said:


> So, now you're argument supporting you riding your motorcycle on illegal trails is the idea that mountain bikes damage trails? Really? Who knew. Your slipping. Seriously, you're thick.


I ride UTV's and ATV's everywhere it's legal from Arkansas to California...YES your MOUNTAIN BIKES do damage trails...or are you denying it?


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> Oh yeah, and adding the ability to go fast uphill and overtake slower riders easier will help with that.:skep:


No Sir, that's another cop out...EVERY mountain bike trail I have been on thus far, the slower riders stop and allow the faster riders to go by, that includes my very own self...why would I want to risk riding like an idiot over taking others on a one lane trail...you gents must be in one of the marijuana legal states....


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

beastmaster said:


> You should stay in Texas, where apparently you live. There is almost no public land in TX, so you have no experience with how public lands function and are managed.
> 
> I am quite confident the whole issue around e-bike restrictions on public land is totally abstract for you. There is nothing anyone can say to you. You have proven yourself in public--this forum is public--to be a transgressor of the law. You will eventually get caught riding that e-bike illegally.


This is spot on. LTZ470 appears to be pretty much clueless when it comes to the public land issues many states with large tracts of public land face, as evidenced by almost every post he has made in this thread.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

kpdemello said:


> You might be right, but then again, you might not. MTB advocacy groups fought all kinds of battles for access. All kinds of studies were done to determine MTB impact on trails. Where are the ebike studies? Why should we just blindly accept your assertion without data?
> 
> You know what, I googled it. There have been some preliminary studies. Turns out class 1 ebikes "may lead to more soil displacement under certain conditions, such as through turns, including bermed turns; on ascents and descents; and where there are abrupt changes in trail conditions." However the results are preliminary, and more studies need to be done. BTW this only includes class 1 ebikes, which appear pretty limited in terms of power output. Ebikes with more power presumably would cause more damage.
> 
> ...


DIRECT from: https://www.imba.com/news/eMTB-early-study-results

*"However, for the most part, the soil impacts observed in this study were not greatly different from those of mountain bikes,*and were much less than those associated with motorcycle use."

That means you are tearing up the lawn the same as an ebike..."Get off the lawn dude"


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

LTZ is still going strong! How long can he last?


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> DIRECT from: https://www.imba.com/news/eMTB-early-study-results
> 
> *"However, for the most part, the soil impacts observed in this study were not greatly different from those of mountain bikes,*and were much less than those associated with motorcycle use."
> 
> That means you are tearing up the lawn the same as an ebike..."Get off the lawn dude"


It's the legal LINK to motorcycles, dumbass.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> DIRECT from: https://www.imba.com/news/eMTB-early-study-results
> 
> *"However, for the most part, the soil impacts observed in this study were not greatly different from those of mountain bikes,*and were much less than those associated with motorcycle use."
> 
> That means you are tearing up the lawn the same as an ebike..."Get off the lawn dude"


spoken too soon, you have been quite the entertainer though.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Mookie said:


> LTZ is still going strong! How long can he last?


I'm guessing no more than a few months more. Will see.....


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

LTZ470 said:


> I ride UTV's and ATV's everywhere it's legal from Arkansas to California...YES your MOUNTAIN BIKES do damage trails...or are you denying it?


You're mental. Truly. You ride your motorcycle where it's illegal to ride motorcycles. Walking on trails causes "damage". You've shifted your angle. Again. You should, really should, quietly slip away. Who's denying what?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> I'm guessing no more than a few months more. Will see.....


No sir, got to head back to KSA the 22nd.... Internet connection a little sparce there...


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

BumpityBump said:


> I'm guessing no more than a few months more. Will see.....


Let's hope not that long.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> No sir, got to head back to KSA the 22nd.... Internet connection a little sparce there...


Gawd bless Texass!


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

mbmb65 said:


> You're mental. Truly. You ride your motorcycle where it's legal to ride motorcycles. Walking on trails causes "damage". You've shifted your angle. Again. You should, really should, quietly slip away. Who's denying what?


FIFY....you no readie English...


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

mookie said:


> let's hope not that long.


x 2000


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

View attachment 1135440


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

chuckha62 said:


> I suspect Crankout really didn't anticipate this big of a response. Lots of pent up feelings about eBikes. Give the man some socks!


Only quoted you because I think your signature is awesome! :thumbsup: 

Carry on...


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

GAWD bless TEXASS!!!!
View attachment 1135442


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> No Sir, that's another cop out...EVERY mountain bike trail I have been on thus far, the slower riders stop and allow the faster riders to go by, that includes my very own self...why would I want to risk riding like an idiot over taking others on a one lane trail...you gents must be in one of the marijuana legal states....


LTZ, if there is one thing I have learned from this site, and there are actually a lot of things I have learned, it is that trails really vary depending on where you live. I'm not sure you actually read my post before you started flying off the handle as you seem to have missed my discussion of how eBikes would affect my trails, you're still talking about causing erosion from torque and that is not what I was talking about. If riders want to stop and let me by, that's fine. But I don't really expect them to stop, I don't want to interrupt their ride and I appreciate it when I am treated likewise. As I said, the trails around me work amazingly well. Almost all of them were built and are maintained by mountain bike groups. We welcome hikers and trail runners on them and many hikers/runners enjoy the trails.

If you have been keeping up with all the recent eBike threads, most of which I believe you started, Walt posted in one of them that you eBike riders are your own worse enemies. You are the perfect example of that. You used to ride higher wattage bikes and had the desire to modify them to be illegal. You say you have learned your lesson yet you still ride your eBike where it is illegal and you defend it by saying basically "you guys do illegal stuff, too so its ok for me to do this!" (I guess we need to get zooey in here to lecture you on fallacies in arguments). Most of us are not against eBikes per se, we think they are great for commuting, gravel roads, etc., just not for illegally riding on mountain bike trails and we have legitimate concerns about them negatively impacting our sport. Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "not true" doesn't change that. I may be going on a gravel ride Saturday and if someone shows up on an eBike, I'm cool with that. All of the "burn them all" type comments come from people fed up with the eBikers who argue like you do, "I should be able to ride my eBike wherever I want".

I sincerely invited you to join us on non-motorized bicycles; you immediately rejected that idea with the excuse that you like to carry photography equipment. As you know, there is a whole photography section on this site (nice pix by the way). These guys manage to ride bicycles and take awesome photos, I'm sure they would be happy to help you out. As I said, I have no trouble with you riding your eBike on gravel roads and other legal places. But don't be your own worse enemy.


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

Harryman said:


> There's already official stickers if you need any: https://www.rockartsigns.com/d72/search/node/10-969


Can I get this tattooed on my forehead?

Pandora's box... that's what these things are. We all knew it would come to this some day. You can only change wheel sizes so many times before you run out of new ideas in the industry.

I'm fine with new stickers and incremental developments, trends, and whatever else. As long as I still can buy non-motorized bikes and ride my bicycle on trails.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

LTZ470 said:


> DIRECT from: https://www.imba.com/news/eMTB-early-study-results
> 
> *"However, for the most part, the soil impacts observed in this study were not greatly different from those of mountain bikes,*and were much less than those associated with motorcycle use."
> 
> That means you are tearing up the lawn the same as an ebike..."Get off the lawn dude"


You're cherry picking again. It also says:



> Observations suggest that Class 1 eMTBs may lead to more displacement under certain trail conditions. More research is needed before conclusions can be drawn regarding the environmental impacts of Class 1 eMTBs as compared with traditional mountain bicycles.


In addition, the IMBA's communications director is quoted in that article as saying, "However, physical impacts are just one factor-there are also important considerations related to interactions between trail users and other factors. IMBA's partners in the land management world, the bicycle industry and, most importantly, our chapters and affiliated groups, want IMBA to continue gathering data about the physical and social impacts of eMTBs."

I would also note that the article also states that the current IMBA position is that while ebikes are not the same as motorcycles, they should not share the same trails as mountain bikes.

And finally, I would point out that the limited study here was only done on relatively low powered class 1 ebikes. There is certainly potential for more powerful ebikes or illegally modified ebikes to do significantly more damage to the trails. Because of that, opening MTB trails to these things is dangerous IMHO.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

kpdemello said:


> You're cherry picking again. It also says:
> 
> In addition, the IMBA's communications director is quoted in that article as saying, "However, physical impacts are just one factor-there are also important considerations related to interactions between trail users and other factors. IMBA's partners in the land management world, the bicycle industry and, most importantly, our chapters and affiliated groups, want IMBA to continue gathering data about the physical and social impacts of eMTBs."
> 
> ...


_"may" lead to more displacement_...heck the _type of tires used "may" lead to more displacement_ as well, and that varies from MTB to MTB...._I call BS...

And you never ridden one either, so how do you know they are dangerous?

"Crystal Ball"?_


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

View attachment 1135449


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> LTZ, if there is one thing I have learned from this site, and there are actually a lot of things I have learned, it is that trails really vary depending on where you live. I'm not sure you actually read my post before you started flying off the handle as you seem to have missed my discussion of how eBikes would affect my trails, you're still talking about causing erosion from torque and that is not what I was talking about. If riders want to stop and let me by, that's fine. But I don't really expect them to stop, I don't want to interrupt their ride and I appreciate it when I am treated likewise. As I said, the trails around me work amazingly well. Almost all of them were built and are maintained by mountain bike groups. We welcome hikers and trail runners on them and many hikers/runners enjoy the trails.
> 
> If you have been keeping up with all the recent eBike threads, most of which I believe you started, Walt posted in one of them that you eBike riders are your own worse enemies. You are the perfect example of that. You used to ride higher wattage bikes and had the desire to modify them to be illegal. You say you have learned your lesson yet you still ride your eBike where it is illegal and you defend it by saying basically "you guys do illegal stuff, too so its ok for me to do this!" (I guess we need to get zooey in here to lecture you on fallacies in arguments). Most of us are not against eBikes per se, we think they are great for commuting, gravel roads, etc., just not for illegally riding on mountain bike trails and we have legitimate concerns about them negatively impacting our sport. Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "not true" doesn't change that. I may be going on a gravel ride Saturday and if someone shows up on an eBike, I'm cool with that. All of the "burn them all" type comments come from people fed up with the eBikers who argue like you do, "I should be able to ride my eBike wherever I want".
> 
> I sincerely invited you to join us on non-motorized bicycles; you immediately rejected that idea with the excuse that you like to carry photography equipment. As you know, there is a whole photography section on this site (nice pix by the way). These guys manage to ride bicycles and take awesome photos, I'm sure they would be happy to help you out. As I said, I have no trouble with you riding your eBike on gravel roads and other legal places. But don't be your own worse enemy.


Yes sir, that not reading or comprehending is a double edge sword, all this time I thought we were all discussing "single" track...maybe you all's single track = double track, but where I ride MTB Trails it's all single track...

No sir that higher wattage claim of Prodeco (500 Watt) was BS...not even close...it was a gimmick like MOST of the high wattage claims buy manufacturers as you well know yourself...similar to a used car dealer...blowing smoke up folks ar$e...that bike wasn't even close...

They probably carry a single camera and lens, I carry two cameras, two lens, tripod, a macro lens and a macro flash some of the time...yes, I could lighten the load...but wouldn't get photos like this either...
View attachment 1135451


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes sir, that not reading or comprehending is a double edge sword, all this time I thought we were all discussing "single" track...maybe you all's single track = double track, but where I ride MTB Trails it's all single track...
> 
> They probably carry a single camera and lens, I carry two cameras, two lens, tripod, a macro lens and a macro flash some of the time...yes, I could lighten the load...but wouldn't get photos like this either...
> View attachment 1135451


Yeah, all these guy's carrying one camera could never hope to get quality photos. What a pretentious, self important sense of self worth you display.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Yeah, all these guy's carrying one camera could never hope to get quality photos. What a pretentious, self important sense of self worth you display.


No Sir you have to carry the RIGHT equipment to get photos like these are you DO NOT get them...it's that simple no more no less....
View attachment 1135452


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes sir, that not reading or comprehending is a double edge sword, all this time I thought we were all discussing "single" track...maybe you all's single track = double track, but where I ride MTB Trails it's all single track...
> 
> No sir that higher wattage claim of Prodeco (500 Watt) was BS...not even close...it was a gimmick like MOST of the high wattage claims buy manufacturers as you well know yourself...similar to a used car dealer...blowing smoke up folks ar$e...that bike wasn't even close...
> 
> ...


A macro shot of damselflies mating? Doesn't get much easier than that. Still, I wouldn't be surprise that you usurped the photo form elsewhere given your past lies.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> A macro shot of damselflies mating? Doesn't get much easier than that.


OK Sir, let's see yours...
View attachment 1135455


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> And eventually you are going to get caught speeding, running a stop sign, using a cell phone while driving, or running a red light, are you going to stay awake all night worrying about it hippocrit?[/QUOTE
> 
> This would be hilarious if you were funny! I hope you carry your cell phone when you ride. It will make for some excellent evidence (along with your photos and videos) of your illegal activities. When they catch you, and they will, expect to loose your bike, be fined and possibly get some time behind bars to consider yourself. You have absolutely no idea what you are getting into, do you?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> LTZ470 said:
> 
> 
> > And eventually you are going to get caught speeding, running a stop sign, using a cell phone while driving, or running a red light, are you going to stay awake all night worrying about it hippocrit?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Okay, here is a pic with a cheap olympus pocket cam. Nothing special but every bit as good as what you posted I think.

_
Hyla cynera_
View attachment 1135456


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Won't get into anything sir, not where I ride...safe as can be...been riding without problems since 2013...still enjoy riding, helping other folks, making new friends, Life Is Good....


Then why are you here stirring the pot if you're all fine and dandy on the trails you ride?

As a duly-designated representative of mtbr, I order you to cease any and all trolling activity and return forthwith to your place of origin, or to the next convenient parallel dimension.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> Then why are you here stirring the pot if you're all fine and dandy on the trails you ride?
> 
> As a duly-designated representative of mtbr, I order you to cease any and all trolling activity and return forthwith to your place of origin, or to the next convenient parallel dimension.


Lol...too funny Cornhole...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> Okay, here is a pic with a cheap olympus pocket cam. Nothing special but every bit as good as what you posted I think.
> 
> _
> Hyla cynera_
> View attachment 1135456


Beauty of a shot, great capture....

Damsel Flies are just a bit harder in the wind...and the plane of focus as well...tripod is a must for these shaker old hands...and a macro flash to freeze the subject...


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## zorg (Jul 1, 2004)

watermonkey said:


> Responses such as these are what prompted me to just burn up $30 worth of inkjet ink in the process of printing out the regional BLM's Resource Management Plan, complete with maps outlining legal trail use, their policy towards embts = motorized vehicles, and the trails on which embts are prohibited . The 1 pound, 89 page document will now permanently live in my camelback, to be offered up to riders illegally riding embts on non-motorized trails. I will film myself informing them that they are illegally riding embt's on trails that are not designated motorized, and will turn that footage into the local BLM office. Then that footage will be posted onto the local trail group/trail condition facebook pages, so that local riders will know what douchebag is poaching trails on a moped.
> I will also volunteer my time to the local BLM office to hang the below signs on as many trails as they'll let me.
> View attachment 1135392


Out here, that's what the HOHAs do to cyclists that ride off limit single track. Personally, I am not big on snitching.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Finally, I can't believe it took almost 8 pages to change the subject to amazing and epic photography. :thumbsup:


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

LTZ470 said:


> _"may" lead to more displacement_...heck the _type of tires used "may" lead to more displacement_ as well, and that varies from MTB to MTB...._I call BS...
> 
> And you never ridden one either, so how do you know they are dangerous?
> 
> "Crystal Ball"?_


No. Science.

It's like magic but real.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

kpdemello said:


> No. Science.
> 
> It's like magic but real.


Like these? Not only are they hurting themselves, but trails and trees as well....lol...are these scientific as well...;-)...I call BS on your lame theories...












Another good one of a guy bleeding out after crashing a MTB...lol...yeah ebikes are sooooo dangerous....show me a crash of an ebike on a mtb trail of this magnitude...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> ...I call BS on your lame theories...


Neat videos. Hey look, squirrel!


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Wow. If this thread ever had any worth, it's gone now.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Beautiful Pics LTZ. Are you an entomologist?

Hey look, another squirrel!

edit: I said etymologist when I meant to say entomologist. Whoops!


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chuckha62 said:


> Beautiful Pics LTZ. Are you an etymologist?
> 
> Hey look, another squirrel!


Lol...yep Ima squirrel at times, I can honestly say I have pulled off some of the dumbest stunts in the history of man...actually they should have studied me...then everyone would know what not to do...

Traveled the world working in 10-15 countries minimum, learned different words from different languages...many are the same and some are similar and some are the same but mean different things and then there's the dialect's to boot...

After meeting and knowing all these folks, I realized one thing is common among all, there are those that love and those that hate, know matter what position, rank, or portion of life they have been given, some rich, some poor, but for the most part the poor folks are the one's that love the most and are the most trust worthy...sound familiar?


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Lol...yep Ima squirrel at times, I can honestly say I have pulled off some of the dumbest stunts in the history of man...actually they should have studied me...then everyone would know what not to do...
> 
> Traveled the world working in 10-15 countries minimum, learned different words from different languages...many are the same and some are similar and some are the same but mean different things and then there's the dialect's to boot...
> 
> After meeting and knowing all these folks, I realized one thing is common among all, there are those that love and those that hate, know matter what position, rank, or portion of life they have been given, some rich, some poor, but for the most part the poor folks are the one's that love the most and are the most trust worthy...sound familiar?


I LOVE to mountainbike. I HATE ebikes ridden illegally on mountain bike trails. See, you can actually do both. Only children break things down into either/or.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Harryman said:


> View attachment 1135440


I think that is a pinkbike hippo critter...lol...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> GAWD bless TEXASS!!!!
> View attachment 1135442


Now thats a fatboy on a fatbike...I think I can see the edrive on his calve muscle...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

watermonkey said:


> I LOVE to mountainbike. I HATE ebikes ridden illegally on mountain bike trails. See, you can actually do both. Only children break things down into either/or.


You don't have to worry, no mountains here in north texas...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> You don't have to worry, no mountains here in southern Oklahoma...


white text


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> white text


Awesome, free for all to ride since we are not actually riding mountain bike trails...


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

My 2 cents. I see their utility for older folks. I don't want them on MTB trails.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

I became a fan of e-bikes a few days ago when realizing that they're taking people *off* of non-motorized trails and putting them onto motorized trails that I rarely/never ride.

Sell more ebikes, maybe make the remaining few good trails less crowded?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

I got buzzed by a guy today. He said "sorry" as he failed to yield right of way and zipped past me on his way to Strava glory, so he clearly knew he was in the wrong, and I don't think he was even remotely "sorry". No motor on his bike, but a big stickered up van in the parking lot, and lots of sponsorship talk on his Strava page. Frankly, I find his commercial use of our trails, and failing to follow the rules of the trail in the process, to be far more offensive than the thought of an e-biker "cheating" while out riding for fun.

This is the second time this year I've had a less than desirable interaction with a "sponsored" rider. Number of undesirable interactions with e-bikers? Zero. Who's the real threat to our image and trail access here? e-bikers who are largely indistinguishable from regular bikes to the average hiker/equestrian, or the racer-boy who ignores rules of the trail in their quest for speed?


.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Commercialized? Dude, put down the pipe.


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

_CJ said:


> I got buzzed by a guy today. He said "sorry" as he failed to yield right of way and zipped past me on his way to Strava glory, so he clearly knew he was in the wrong, and I don't think he was even remotely "sorry". No motor on his bike, but a big stickered up van in the parking lot, and lots of sponsorship talk on his Strava page. Frankly, I find his commercial use of our trails, and failing to follow the rules of the trail in the process, to be far more offensive than the thought of an e-biker "cheating" while out riding for fun.
> 
> This is the second time this year I've had a less than desirable interaction with a "sponsored" rider. Number of undesirable interactions with e-bikers? Zero. Who's the real threat to our image and trail access here? e-bikers who are largely indistinguishable from regular bikes to the average hiker/equestrian, or the racer-boy who ignores rules of the trail in their quest for speed?
> 
> .


Here's the beef dude... some bikers are *****... yeah, you'll find that in anything. It's not the point.

It's not about e-bikers being good people. Or legal riders. Or any of that happy horseshit. It's this:

It has a FOCKIN' motor!!

Bikes have been grouped (unfairly) with motorized recreation for decades and finally have started to gain enough traction (pun intended) to have a niche of trails, mostly shared use. The ones that are shared use with pedestrians or equestrians i.e. non-motorized use should stay as such. Bikes fought hard to get access to those trails, why should they give it up because you want to use a motor? They shouldn't. And frankly, that's the dividing line.

Now you can surely go ride your pedal bike on motorized trails or roads, but not a lot of people want to do that for the obvious reasons. If you don't like the obvious compromise an electric bike brings, I'd suggest looking into the good 'ole IC engine. If you like the electric you just need to grow the eff up and accept the fact that's its motorized recreation and it doesn't belong with the human/animal powered stuff.

End of goddamn story. If you want to ride illegally. Do so at your own risk and be aware that every MTBer in their right might will shame you for trying to give what they fought hard for a bad name. They'd also be well to dissociate from eBikes and their users as much as possible.

Capiche?


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

I feel very strongly that ebikes should not be allowed on non-motorized trails, unless the rider is a photographer. In that case it's ok.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Number of undesirable interactions with e-bikers? Zero.


Current strava junkie to e-bike rider ratio? 50/1? 100/1? That won't last long.

Agree that @sshole riders are jerks but strava junkies on electronic steroids can only be worse. Not every e-biker will be a kindly old gentleman out for a leisurely stroll.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

_CJ said:


> I got buzzed by a guy today. He said "sorry" as he failed to yield right of way and zipped past me on his way to Strava glory, so he clearly knew he was in the wrong, and I don't think he was even remotely "sorry". No motor on his bike, but a big stickered up van in the parking lot, and lots of sponsorship talk on his Strava page. Frankly, I find his commercial use of our trails, and failing to follow the rules of the trail in the process, to be far more offensive than the thought of an e-biker "cheating" while out riding for fun.
> 
> This is the second time this year I've had a less than desirable interaction with a "sponsored" rider. Number of undesirable interactions with e-bikers? Zero. Who's the real threat to our image and trail access here? e-bikers who are largely indistinguishable from regular bikes to the average hiker/equestrian, or the racer-boy who ignores rules of the trail in their quest for speed?
> 
> .


So, lets say you interact with, what? A hundred or so other riders a month? I dunno, you tell me. If it's a 100, that's @ 400 so far this year, with .5% being d!cks. How many emtbs have you seen so far on the trails this year? None? Five?

If your point is that d!cks will be d!cks, I'll whole heartedly agree with you, and no matter what bike they ride. If he bugs you that much, contact his sponsors, it will get his attention.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Harryman said:


> If your point is that d!cks will be d!cks, I'll whole heartedly agree with you, and no matter what bike they ride.


Actual passing on single-track, where right of way is involved? Can't possibly be that high. Maybe 5 a month. So I guess that's 5%, which seems about right.

That's exactly the point. I'm not upset about it. Had a great ride otherwise. Beautiful day, and those new re-routes on Inteman are freak'n fantastic. Feeling really lucky to live here at this time. Never could have imagined it would be this good back in the 90's, and it was epic back then.

I just find the visceral hatred of ebikes, and apparent indifference about racer boys mowing people down on the trails to be interesting. The outrage goes deeper than "it has a motor", or "they're too fast". Hell, nobody seems upset about the increased downhill speeds modern bikes are capable of compared to bikes of the 80's and 90's. I said it before, and I'll say it again, it's all about ego. They're "cheating", and some people can't stand the thought of being passed by a middle aged fat guy on a bike that looks just like the one they're riding. Maybe they need to mount the motors externally so the fragile ones can be sure that everyone knows they aren't getting passed by an old/fat guy, or worse yet....a woman. People need to get over themselves. Recreational rides on public trails are NOT races. Some people may be "training", but that doesn't excuse them from displaying common courtesy to other trail users.

At the end of the day, I'm fine with whatever the land managers decide. Makes no difference to me. If they're legalized, and become a terror, they'll be banned. Not a chance any land manager is going to legalize ebikes, then reverse course and ban ALL bikes because the ebikers acted like asshats.

It could work though. If e-bikers are brought in under the same umbrella, and taught the rules of the trail, odds are we'll have that same 5% ratio of d!ckheads. 5% of a small number of e-bikers isn't even going to be a blip on the radar compared to number of racer boys out there terrorizing people on the trails.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> I just find the visceral hatred of ebikes, and apparent indifference about racer boys mowing people down on the trails to be interesting.


I find it interesting that many posters here think that people who believe that they (e-bikes) shouldn't be legally designated as bicycles are haters. Also weird that most pro (or indifferent) e-bikers don't seem to get that the average mountain biker isn't indifferent to racer boys mowing people down, and that it isn't relevant to the issue anyway.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

_CJ said:


> and apparent indifference about racer boys mowing people down on the trails to be interesting.


Hyperbole much?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I don't think anyone is indifferent to racer boys behaving badly, it's just not really part of this discussion. Stravatards are already our biggest enemy, how to fix that is another issue. 

Emotional arguments against ebikes like "They're cheating!" have no weight where it actually matters, with the land managers. Neither does the "my wife can now keep up with me!" arguments. Trust me, they've heard plenty of both. They only look at impact to the land and to other trail users, that's it. 

I expect signs to go up this season, so unless you're in Jones or Cheyenne mtn state park, you probably won't see many emtbs.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

If we think we have problems with stravatard skid kiddies mowing people down now, wait till they don't have to climb any more. Ebikes will attract a whole new group of boombox toting skid kiddie who previously never made it more than a mile away from the car.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> I find it interesting that many posters here think that people who believe that they (e-bikes) shouldn't be legally designated as bicycles are haters. Also weird that most pro (or indifferent) e-bikers don't seem to get that the average mountain biker isn't indifferent to racer boys mowing people down, and that it isn't relevant to the issue anyway.


^^^ this


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Procter said:


> If we think we have problems with stravatard skid kiddies mowing people down now, wait till they don't have to climb any more. Ebikes will attract a whole new group of boombox toting skid kiddie who previously never made it more than a mile away from the car.


^^^ and this


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Procter said:


> If we think we have problems with stravatard skid kiddies mowing people down now, wait till they don't have to climb any more. Ebikes will attract a whole new group of boombox toting skid kiddie who previously never made it more than a mile away from the car.


^^ I fear this as well.

Also, I hate racers, Strava weenies, trail homogenizers, politicians, liberals, conservatives, and Tomi Larhen's voice.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Harryman said:


> I don't think anyone is indifferent to racer boys behaving badly, it's just not really part of this discussion. Stravatards are already our biggest enemy, how to fix that is another issue.
> 
> Emotional arguments against ebikes like "They're cheating!" have no weight where it actually matters, with the land managers. Neither does the "my wife can now keep up with me!" arguments. Trust me, they've heard plenty of both. They only look at impact to the land and to other trail users, that's it.
> 
> I expect signs to go up this season, so unless you're in Jones or Cheyenne mtn state park, you probably won't see many emtbs.


Cheyenne state park? That's interesting. Never would have imagined the state would allow them.

Signs or not, they're going to be out there, and will continue to not make any difference in impact on the land or other trail users. Dealers aren't going to stop trying to sell them, people aren't going to quit buying them, and Barney Fife isn't going to be hiding in the bushes to ticket the would-be criminals.

I guess the signs will appease the anti-crowd that likes to yell at people on the internet, and not actually do anything to effect the change they want to see, so that's good. They can sleep well at night knowing the signs are in place, and their moral high ground has at least been acknowledged.


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## zorg (Jul 1, 2004)

This thread got legs...

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

zorg said:


> This thread got legs...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


That's because it's got no motor.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

tiretracks said:


> That's because it's got no motor.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tiretracks again.


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## zorg (Jul 1, 2004)

tiretracks said:


> That's because it's got no motor.


Nor rational argument. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Guest (May 6, 2017)

chazpat said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tiretracks again.


 covered it.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

_CJ said:


> Cheyenne state park? That's interesting. Never would have imagined the state would allow them.
> 
> Signs or not, they're going to be out there, and will continue to not make any difference in impact on the land or other trail users. Dealers aren't going to stop trying to sell them, people aren't going to quit buying them, and Barney Fife isn't going to be hiding in the bushes to ticket the would-be criminals.
> 
> I guess the signs will appease the anti-crowd that likes to yell at people on the internet, and not actually do anything to effect the change they want to see, so that's good. They can sleep well at night knowing the signs are in place, and their moral high ground has at least been acknowledged.


CPW granted them access last fall, it didn't have anything to do with the legislature. The legislature passed a bill allowing them on bike paths last month. Here though, it'll be class 1 only on bike paths, anything goes on moto trails.

Given that all of the legacy trails we ride now in the USFS and some in the parks were open to motos in the past, or at least not posted, and you don't see many now where they aren't allowed, I'm guessing signs will be somewhat effective.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> No Sir, that's another cop out...EVERY mountain bike trail I have been on thus far, the slower riders stop and allow the faster riders to go by, that includes my very own self...why would I want to risk riding like an idiot over taking others on a one lane trail...you gents must be in one of the marijuana legal states....


Sorry, but I will not stop riding up hill, giving up my momentum, to let an eBike or a real bicycle pass, though I don't recall anyone ever catching me on a climb, not bragging. If I was on some of those really long uphills out west, I probably would. I rode with a group a couple of weeks ago and I purposefully let the guys in front of me gap me before a hill as I know I am a fast climber and I didn't want to ride up on them. If an eBike comes up on me going uphill, he/she can slow down and ride behind me until the top. This is even more so when I ride my singlespeed.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> Sorry, but I will not stop riding up hill, giving up my momentum, to let an eBike or a real bicycle pass, though I don't recall anyone ever catching me on a climb, not bragging. If I was on some of those really long uphills out west, I probably would. I rode with a group a couple of weeks ago and I purposefully let the guys in front of me gap me before a hill as I know I am a fast climber and I didn't want to ride up on them. If an eBike comes up on me going uphill, he/she can slow down and ride behind me until the top. This is even more so when I ride my singlespeed.


Completely agree, and no one should expect you or anyone else for that matter...I ride with the flow and try and stay spaced out with the other riders, better for me, I don't like to be pushed, I am riding for enjoyment...and I do enjoy it very much...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes sir, that not reading or comprehending is a double edge sword, all this time I thought we were all discussing "single" track...maybe you all's single track = double track, but where I ride MTB Trails it's all single track...
> 
> No sir that higher wattage claim of Prodeco (500 Watt) was BS...not even close...it was a gimmick like MOST of the high wattage claims buy manufacturers as you well know yourself...similar to a used car dealer...blowing smoke up folks ar$e...that bike wasn't even close...
> 
> ...


You could have caught that photo in my yard, saw it last weekend.

Here's the singletrack I ran (as on foot) this morning, on my closest MTB trail. I guess to you, singletrack means something you would have to take one of your quad runners on rather than your jeep.

Hard to see but you have about 24" between some of the greenery that is hanging over the trail. The dirt path you see is probably about 36".

View attachment 1135688


Here's a wider spot where you could pass

View attachment 1135687


If it is only a very few eBikers, it would not be an issue. If they become common, it will be.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

LTZ470 said:


> And eventually you are going to get caught speeding, running a stop sign, using a cell phone while driving, or running a red light, are you going to stay awake all night worrying about it hippocrit?


Yes, but his getting a speeding ticket won't jeopardize my right to drive a car, but you on your motorbike ripping up trails will get all of us banned, ebike and realbike


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

chazpat said:


> Sorry, but I will not stop riding up hill, giving up my momentum, to let an eBike or a real bicycle pass, though I don't recall anyone ever catching me on a climb, not bragging. If I was on some of those really long uphills out west, I probably would. I rode with a group a couple of weeks ago and I purposefully let the guys in front of me gap me before a hill as I know I am a fast climber and I didn't want to ride up on them. If an eBike comes up on me going uphill, he/she can slow down and ride behind me until the top. This is even more so when I ride my singlespeed.


I am going to disagree with you here chazpat. Proper form is to let a faster rider pass. And it sounds like you ARE bragging, perhaps you need to come out west so we can work on those flatlander legs (not sure where you are, but sounds like you don't do big climbs). 
If slower riders didn't allow faster climbers to pass that could create a huge cluster**** in higher use areas where I have ridden. Imagine what conflict would arise in places like Moab with that approach (actually that might be a bad example given the open passing options, but hopefully you get the idea)

So this presents another dilemma. Proper etiquette wherever I have lived has been to let faster riders pass on a climb. I think this has only happened to me once or twice in 30 years (now I am bragging, ha!). More by luck than anything I am sure, I am stubborn and competitive, but not racer fast I'm sure. Have no desire to race so have no idea how I would stack up.

However, I would NEVER go out of my way to let an e-bike pass on a climb. But how would I know the difference, how noisy are these bastardization machines???


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

BumpityBump said:


> I am going to disagree with you here chazpat. Proper form is to let a faster rider pass. And it sounds like you ARE bragging, perhaps you need to come out west so we can work on those flatlander legs (not sure where you are, but sounds like you don't do big climbs).
> If slower riders didn't allow faster climbers to pass that could create a huge cluster**** in higher use areas where I have ridden. Imagine what conflict would arise in places like Moab with that approach (actually that might be a bad example given the open passing options, but hopefully you get the idea)
> 
> So this presents another dilemma. Proper etiquette wherever I have lived has been to let faster riders pass on a climb. I think this has only happened to me once or twice in 30 years (now I am bragging, ha!). More by luck than anything I am sure, I am stubborn and competitive, but not racer fast I'm sure. Have no desire to race so have no idea how I would stack up.
> ...


Let them pass when clear, but you do not have to stop to let them pass. That is the difference. I move over or expect a slower rider to move over when there is room, but if we are both pushing it up a climb and I am a little faster, I will wait, and expect the same if I am the slower climber


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Let them pass when clear, but you do not have to stop to let them pass. That is the difference. I move over or expect a slower rider to move over when there is room, but if we are both pushing it up a climb and I am a little faster, I will wait, and expect the same if I am the slower climber


Maybe the difference is that where I have lived there just isn't that much pressure on the trails. But if I see someone is catching me, I get off the trail to let them pass. Why should they have to wait and work on a pass option if you are not racing??? Again, that hasn't happened often, but it seems like proper etiquette in my mind and that is what I will continue to do. To each their own I guess.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

BumpityBump said:


> I am going to disagree with you here chazpat. Proper form is to let a faster rider pass. And it sounds like you ARE bragging, perhaps you need to come out west so we can work on those flatlander legs (not sure where you are, but sounds like you don't do big climbs).
> If slower riders didn't allow faster climbers to pass that could create a huge cluster**** in higher use areas where I have ridden. Imagine what conflict would arise in places like Moab with that approach (actually that might be a bad example given the open passing options, but hopefully you get the idea)
> 
> So this presents another dilemma. Proper etiquette wherever I have lived has been to let faster riders pass on a climb. I think this has only happened to me once or twice in 30 years (now I am bragging, ha!). More by luck than anything I am sure, I am stubborn and competitive, but not racer fast I'm sure. Have no desire to race so have no idea how I would stack up.
> ...


Where I ride is constant hills, up and down, climbs are short and often steep, 20 seconds would probably be a long climb. I'm not talking about riding up long mellow grades, I'm talking about short punchy climbs. That's why I said I would let people pass if I was on long uphills like out west. And I'm not bragging, people don't catch me on climbs and as I said, I'll back off from someone in front of me so that I don't catch them on climbs as these trails are difficult to pass on and I don't expect someone to stop on a short, steep climb. On a lot of these hills they would then be pushing their bike to the top as it's too steep to restart on.

The point I was trying to make is that on real bicycles, the difference in speed between a slower rider and a faster rider climbing is probably what, 3 miles an hour? That is why passing going uphill isn't an issue where I ride, it's a very short distance. But if a mountain biker is going 5mph up a hill and an ebiker is doing 15, that's a lot bigger difference, the eBike is going to ride up on the real bike very quickly. And if they feel they should be able to pass because it's proper form to let a faster rider pass in all circumstances and locations, you've suddenly really changed the mountain biking experience where I ride. And isn't climbing where eBIkes would be most likely to catch real bikes since this is where you would see the biggest difference in speed?

If/when I do experience an eBike wanting to pass me it will do no harm to my ego, I'm fully aware that I am not as fast as a motorized vehicle.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Maybe the difference is that I am used to steep climbs through mountain forest where there just aren't that many options to pass. Also, on steep grinds, the faster rider isn't all that much faster but still gaining. Not allowing them to pass seems like an asshole move to me. I mean, it might take 1/2 hour to a full hour to get a decent passing spot.

Also, does anyone know how loud these e-bikes are. How do you know outside of the fact they are gaining fast that it is an e-bike? I need to be able to look for sticks to jam in their spokes for cripes sakes!


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Its pretty obvious when an ebike comes up behind you, they close WAY faster than a regular rider - and I have been passed by a good number of cat 1 racers in my time. Secondly you can hear the whiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrr.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Yes, but his getting a speeding ticket won't jeopardize my right to drive a car, but you on your motorbike ripping up trails will get all of us banned, ebike and realbike


I would agree if this were true, but it is not the case...I don't rip up anything except my ar$e if I crash...PLENTY of guy's riding and ripping much harder than this 57 yr old...


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Harryman said:


> Given that all of the legacy trails we ride now in the USFS and some in the parks were open to motos in the past, or at least not posted, and you don't see many now where they aren't allowed, I'm guessing signs will be somewhat effective.


It's a lot harder to poach a trail on a g-bike (motorcycle) than an e-bike. Most people can't tell the difference between a regular bicycle and an e-bike. Even if a rabid anti-ebiker calls it in, there's not a chance anyone with any police authority is going to run right out to look for them, and if they did, they probably wouldn't even know what to look for.

At the end of the day, I think this is a non-issue that's only being made an issue by cyclists themselves. If it weren't for the anti-crowd crying about it, I doubt anyone would even notice them.

.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

_CJ said:


> It's a lot harder to poach a trail on a g-bike (motorcycle) than an e-bike. Most people can't tell the difference between a regular bicycle and an e-bike. Even if a rabid anti-ebiker calls it in, there's not a chance anyone with any police authority is going to run right out to look for them, and if they did, they probably wouldn't even know what to look for.
> 
> At the end of the day, I think this is a non-issue that's only being made an issue by cyclists themselves. If it weren't for the anti-crowd crying about it, I doubt anyone would even notice them.
> 
> .


I really hope you are right. But if the prices drop where they become popular, I think they will become an issue. Hopefully the prices will stay high, if they become like the "pocket rocket", those tiny motorcycles that were common and were cheap enough that Walmart sold them, it will be a problem. And remember, those were mostly ridden illegally, not street legal but mostly ridden buzzing around the neighborhood streets.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Oh lord. You just reminded me that as soon as the market gets big enough, Wal-mart will sell them. Probably a disposable e-bike for $400. When the battery dies, just throw it away or leave it on the mountain.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

You can already buy $500 - $600 electric "mountain bikes", total garbage though for the most part, even for commuting.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

I was thinking about the Wal-E-bike last night, lol.

Yesterday I saw a guy on a hybrid with one of those gas kits with the roller on the back tire buzzing around town. I've never seen anybody riding mtb trails with one of those, and they've been around forever. Let's hope that's gonna be the reality of electric motor kits or cheap ebikes.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

_CJ said:


> It's a lot harder to poach a trail on a g-bike (motorcycle) than an e-bike. Most people can't tell the difference between a regular bicycle and an e-bike. Even if a rabid anti-ebiker calls it in, there's not a chance anyone with any police authority is going to run right out to look for them, and if they did, they probably wouldn't even know what to look for.
> 
> At the end of the day, I think this is a non-issue that's only being made an issue by cyclists themselves. If it weren't for the anti-crowd crying about it, I doubt anyone would even notice them.


I agree with you that any of the agencies with the authority to enforce a "no eBikes" regulation are not going to respond to complaints about eBikes on the trails. They simply have way too many other things to attend to and are already understaffed. What worries me is that if enough complaints or incidents are reported, that the simpler solution for the agency will be to revoke trail access across the board for all mechanized travel. We've already seen this happen once and all it takes is the stroke of a pen.

You might be right that this is another instance of infighting in the MTB community, but don't forget that we aren't the only ones out there on the trails. eBikes will get noticed by these other groups too, especially those who regularly spend time on the trails. They _do_ stand out on the trail. In areas where there is already conflict between user groups, eBikes are basically pouring gas on the fire.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

The fact that mountain bikes are strictly human-powered conveyances has been a huge plank in our platform to gain trail access for a long, long time. Insisting that mountain bikers pretend an e-bike doesn't have a motor, and then expecting them to take this ridiculous position and attempt to justify it to anyone who isn't personally invested in e-bikes (ie -everyone involved in trail management) is incredibly myopic and selfish.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> The fact that mountain bikes are strictly human-powered conveyances has been a huge plank in our platform to gain trail access for a long, long time. Insisting that mountain bikers pretend an e-bike doesn't have a motor, and then expecting them to take this ridiculous position and attempt to justify it to anyone who isn't personally invested in e-bikes (ie -everyone involved in trail management) is incredibly myopic and selfish.


Perfect point. I don't think that anything more needs to be said.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> The fact that mountain bikes are strictly human-powered conveyances has been a huge plank in our platform to gain trail access for a long, long time. Insisting that mountain bikers pretend an e-bike doesn't have a motor, and then expecting them to take this ridiculous position and attempt to justify it to anyone who isn't personally invested in e-bikes (ie -everyone involved in trail management) is incredibly myopic and selfish.


This.

People have some very good arguments for MTB access in wilderness areas. Does anyone really want to make the argument that e-bikes should be allowed in wilderness areas? I'll get my popcorn.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Does anyone really want to make the argument that e-bikes should be allowed in wilderness areas? I'll get my popcorn.


Just the people that wish to subvert the effort. A Trojan Horse if you would, attack from the inside. Beware of these.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tiretracks said:


> Just the people that wish to subvert the effort. A Trojan Horse if you would, attack from the inside. Beware of these.


Well, that's a great way for people to do it: by strongly associating or equating e-bikes with bicycles.

Any pro-wilderness access advocates should come out very strongly against equating e-bikes with normal, human powered bikes.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

I have a question - how fast can these things really go up hill? I know on the class 1 ebikes they claim a max of 20mph, but can these things really propel somebody uphill at 20mph? If so, that seems like it's way faster than a normal unaided human could do it, and I wonder what effect that would have on the trails and on the traffic. It would be really frustrating if I had to give up my momentum and pull over multiple times on a technical climb just to let some fat dufus on an ebike let his motor whirl him past me.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

kpdemello said:


> I have a question - how fast can these things really go up hill? I know on the class 1 ebikes they claim a max of 20mph, but can these things really propel somebody uphill at 20mph? If so, that seems like it's way faster than a normal unaided human could do it, and I wonder what effect that would have on the trails and on the traffic. It would be really frustrating if I had to give up my momentum and pull over multiple times on a technical climb just to let some fat dufus on an ebike let his motor whirl him past me.


Pull over for an emotorbike? It'll happen on the day after never.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

kpdemello said:


> I have a question - how fast can these things really go up hill? I know on the class 1 ebikes they claim a max of 20mph, but can these things really propel somebody uphill at 20mph? If so, that seems like it's way faster than a normal unaided human could do it, and I wonder what effect that would have on the trails and on the traffic. It would be really frustrating if I had to give up my momentum and pull over multiple times on a technical climb just to let some fat dufus on an ebike let his motor whirl him past me.


I'm aware of a (shop owner) who rides an ebike illegally on our local trails, and his Strava data indicates that he's not able to climb faster than non-motorized cyclists, but he's definitely at the top of the rankings.



007 said:


> don't forget that we aren't the only ones out there on the trails. eBikes will get noticed by these other groups too, especially those who regularly spend time on the trails.


Haters gonna hate. There are people who will just hate cyclists until the end of time, and a motor isn't going to make a difference. It's going to be the same haters screaming about bikes on trails. The E might cause them to scream louder, or change their argument, but I don't think ebikes are going to create new haters.

.


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## jsprag (Oct 17, 2016)

Crankout said:


> Funny how I was immediately ticked off by this dude whizzing past me. There's the physical aspect of cycling that I can't simply ignore when I see an ebiker tooling around. It's like cheating to me.


I feel the same way about anybody who rides a van, bus, chairlift, gondola, etc... UP the hill, and only rides the bike downhill when gravity is doing most of the work.

E-bikes and downhill bikers both incorporate power assist mechanisms; one just happens to be integral to the bike.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

kpdemello said:


> I have a question - how fast can these things really go up hill? I know on the class 1 ebikes they claim a max of 20mph, but can these things really propel somebody uphill at 20mph? If so, that seems like it's way faster than a normal unaided human could do it, and I wonder what effect that would have on the trails and on the traffic. It would be really frustrating if I had to give up my momentum and pull over multiple times on a technical climb just to let some fat dufus on an ebike let his motor whirl him past me.


No Sir they cannot...anyone that tells you that are either lying or riding something more than 250 watt...flat hard gravel steady pedaling my emotion neo jumper can hold 13-17 mph sustained...on trails and hills it would be safe to say 8-10 with a normal rider...10-15 with a intermediate in shape rider maybe...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> No Sir they cannot...anyone that tells you that are either lying or riding something more than 250 watt...flat hard gravel steady pedaling my emotion neo jumper can hold 13-17 mph sustained...on trails and hills it would be safe to say 8-10 with a normal rider...10-15 with a intermediate in shape rider maybe...


That's what you can do, there are many that easily exceed the wattage that you put out. Don't be so obtuse.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> That's what you can do, there are many that easily exceed the wattage that you put out. Don't be so obtuse.


Try rereading...your a victim of self inflicted obtuseness...

"No Sir they cannot...*anyone that tells you that are either lying or riding something more than 250 watt"

*


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> Try rereading what I wrote tiretread...
> 
> "No Sir they cannot...*anyone that tells you that are either lying or riding something more than 250 watt"
> 
> *


Try rereading what I posted Einstien, "many people easily exceed the wattage that you put out". Reading comprehension is fundamental. Keep stumbling along Opie.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Try rereading what I posted Einstien, "many people easily exceed the wattage that you put out". Reading comprehension is fundamental. Keep stumbling along Opie.


Dear Forest,...come back after school and re-read what I wrote Forest....read Forest read....comprehend Forest comprehend....xoxox, Opie....


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

LTZ470 said:


> Try rereading...your a victim of self inflicted obtuseness...


"you're"


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

mountainbiker24 said:


> "you're"


Your correct...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

kpdemello said:


> I have a question - how fast can these things really go up hill? I know on the class 1 ebikes they claim a max of 20mph, but can these things really propel somebody uphill at 20mph? If so, that seems like it's way faster than a normal unaided human could do it, and I wonder what effect that would have on the trails and on the traffic. It would be really frustrating if I had to give up my momentum and pull over multiple times on a technical climb just to let some fat dufus on an ebike let his motor whirl him past me.


Obviously, the folks responding don't understand torque sensors, gearing, and cadence....and they are erroneously thinking everyone will be riding up hills in top/high gear...


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## MikeInPA (Mar 18, 2017)

Ok, now that we've had the requisite Internet squabble, including questioning someone's intelligence but failing to use a proper contraction in doing so (which is always good for a chuckle,) perhaps we can distill this down to a useful collection of thoughts.

1) Technology blurs lines of distinction, and how we manage those lines as things evolve is important to the future of our favorite sport.

2) As these e-bikes morph into quiet, motorized, very capable off-road machines, know that e-motocross bikes are also developing. What happens when e-bikes get really popular, and some jacknut figures what's the harm in riding his 40 hp Alta Motors MX bike on a local hiking trail? (https://www.altamotors.co/redshiftmx/#redshift-mx)

3) We all intuitively understand the influence Strava has on our sport. Strava can be a wonderful personal motivator, a fun and useful tool. In and of itself, it is neither good nor bad. Of course there's a downside to everything, but let's place blame where it belongs, on the rider who lacks judgement, courtesy, and common sense. I use Strava, and on a weekday ride at my local stomping grounds when I'm quite certain I or my group have the trail to ourselves, we let loose and rip a "segment" to shreds. But we ride that same segment on a weekend or a holiday very differently, with concern for the wellbeing of hikers, our fellow bikers, and the future of access to our favorite riding areas.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

MikeInPA said:


> 1) Technology blurs lines of distinction, and how we manage those lines as things evolve is important to the future of our favorite sport.


Agreed, but how far have they already been advanced to take into consideration these factors...From my POV, considerably well designed, thought out, also limited to reduce impact on everyone and trails as well



> 2) As these e-bikes morph into quiet, motorized, very capable off-road machines, know that e-motocross bikes are also developing. What happens when e-bikes get really popular, and some jacknut figures what's the harm in riding his 40 hp Alta Motors MX bike on a local hiking trail? (https://www.altamotors.co/redshiftmx/#redshift-mx)


Disagree completely, could it happen? Yes. Will it ever happen? Highly doubtful...a long stretch of the imagination from my POV...



> 3) We all intuitively understand the influence Strava has on our sport. Strava can be a wonderful personal motivator, a fun and useful tool. In and of itself, it is neither good nor bad. Of course there's a downside to everything, but let's place blame where it belongs, on the rider who lacks judgement, courtesy, and common sense. I use Strava, and on a weekday ride at my local stomping grounds when I'm quite certain I or my group have the trail to ourselves, we let loose and rip a "segment" to shreds. But we ride that same segment on a weekend or a holiday very differently, with concern for the wellbeing of hikers, our fellow bikers, and the future of access to our favorite riding areas.


Agreed, common sense and common decency in harmony goes a long way to promote anything or any sport...


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## baddest grandpa (Oct 16, 2016)

LTZ470 said:


> Agreed, common sense and common decency in harmony goes a long way to promote anything or any sport...


But it should be apparent that most people on this site don't want to help promote your agenda so why keep pushing the point?


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

baddest grandpa said:


> But it should be apparent that most people on this site don't want to help promote your agenda so why keep pushing the point?


Common sense and decency is not his agenda. He keeps playing that card but chazpat, through some focused detective work, made it apparent that he is a blatant liar with an atv agenda. Don't believe anything he says is the bottom line. And he couldn't mountain bike his way out of a paper bag. Why he (or she) ever joined these forums is beyond me.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> Common sense and decency is not his agenda. He keeps playing that card but chazpat, through some focused detective work, made it apparent that he is a blatant liar with an atv agenda. Don't believe anything he says is the bottom line. And he couldn't mountain bike his way out of a paper bag.


You don't know me...never seen me ride...and I responded earnestly and honestly to Chazs accusations from 2013...lol...that makes you the liar sir..plain and simple...for all to see clearly...showing who truly has an agenda....and it ain't me....


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> You don't know me...never seen me ride...and I responded earnestly and honestly to Chazs accusations from 2013...lol...that makes you the liar sir..plain and simple...for all to see clearly...showing who truly has an agenda....and it ain't me....


Earnestly? Haha, you got caught, "plain and simple".


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Me thinks that there may be one of those "Trojans" that were discussed earlier in the thread.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> Me thinks that there may be one of those "Trojans" that were discussed earlier in the thread.


I don't disagree except that I don't think this dumbass from Texas (or wherever) could actually make insider status. He/she certainly isn't influencing anyone on these forums to take up the agenda spewing forth.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> I don't disagree except that I don't think this dumbass from Texas (or wherever) could actually make insider status. He/she certainly isn't influencing anyone on these forums to take up the agenda spewing forth.


Lol...that the best you can do Forest...girls/boys like you get your panties in a Wad when some challenges your lies and erroneously thought process...and down here we know what gearing....torque sensors...and cadence are and how they affect emtbs


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Also, I have this mental image of LTZ470 frantically searching wikipedia and youtube in reponse to posts in order to "fit in" with the mountain biking community. So funny. What a turd.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> Lol...that the best you can do Forest...girls/boys like you get your panties in a Wad when some challenges your lies and erroneously thought process...and down here we know what gearing....torque sensors...and cadence are and how they affect emtbs


WTF are you blathering on about, go ride your bike and quit trying to change the subject to take the target off your idiocy.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

_CJ said:


> I'm aware of a (shop owner) who rides an ebike illegally on our local trails, and his Strava data indicates that he's not able to climb faster than non-motorized cyclists, but he's definitely at the top of the rankings.
> .


And cyclist still do business with this guy? Is this known by the cycling community? Rides illegally and cheats, not someone I would do business with.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> I'm aware of a (shop owner) who rides an ebike illegally on our local trails, and his Strava data indicates that he's not able to climb faster than non-motorized cyclists, but he's definitely at the top of the rankings


That's difficult to believe. Not the fact that the shop owner rides his product illegally but that he can't climb faster with ~2x more power than normal.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's difficult to believe. Not the fact that the shop owner rides his product illegally but that he can't climb faster with ~2x more power than normal.


Unless he's an exceptionally weak rider or just plain lazy, neither of which would surprise me since he's on an emotorbike in the first place. Add 250 watts to lazy and it's still only 250 watts. He could be the poster boy for everything that's wrong with emotor mountain biking.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> WTF are you blathering on about, go ride your bike and quit trying to change the subject to take the target off your idiocy.


And we can clearly see who is at the point idiocy...actually I would say over the line just wee tad bit...lol...just pull your panties out of a wad and then pull them up and act like a big boy for once...


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> And we can clearly see who is at the point idiocy...actually I would say over the line just wee tad bit...lol...just pull your panties out of a wad and then pull them up and act like a big boy for once...


Deflection, again.....

I think I will just start pasting chazpats homework as a response to all of your posts so others can see you for what you are.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

tiretracks said:


> Unless he's an exceptionally weak rider or just plain lazy, neither of which would surprise me since he's on an emotorbike in the first place. Add 250 watts to lazy and it's still only 250 watts. He could be the poster boy for everything that's wrong with emotor mountain biking.


250w = 500w at peak fwiw


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Almost 10 pages of this, really? ut:


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Honestly LTZ, my take on this is you came here hoping you could convince us that your illegal trail riding is ok so that you could justify it in your mind. As you've seen, that isn't going to happen.

I actually did the research on you because I suspected you were an industry shill and I came across your past. You basically brushed it off saying you are now a changed man and no longer seek speed and power. Another poster pointed out that the trails around you do not allow eBikes and asked you what trails you ride. You wouldn't name any trails but repeated that you ride it on trails. I posted a summery and pointed out that your refusal to name the trails (though I'm sure we can dig that up if we want to) pretty much looked like a confession that you ride illegally. You then went Pee Wee Herman on us with a "I know you are but what am I" type campaign, posting youtube vids of Red Bull riders crashing and trying to claim that your riding isn't any worse than ours, again trying to justify your illegal riding.

Now it seems your approach is to just outlast us all, like if we all give up posting on this subject you can declare yourself the winner. You may actually manage that and you can pat yourself on the back and think about how smart you are.

And now let me tell you something that is probably going to surprise you: I hope you are right. I hope your illegal trail riding isn't doing any harm. I hope you have no plans or desire to modify your bike for more speed and power. I hope that eBikes do not become an issue where I ride or wherever my fellow riders who enjoy mountain biking ride. I really hope eBikes don't lead to the closure of mountain bike trails and/or the prevention of new mountain bikes trails/access. And you can say "nope, my riding won't cause this". But if there are many likeminded people that follow your example, these things very well might happen. This sense you have of "it's ok for me to do it" will not serve you, or us, well in the end.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Almost 10 pages of this, really? ut:


Why do you care? I have read quite a few threads on the OC, talk about 10 pages of :crazy:


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> Deflection, again.....
> 
> I think I will just start pasting chazpats homework as a response to all of your posts so others can see you for what you are.


Go for it Bump, if that makes you feel smarter and more informed about the ebike agenda, but we will ALL know you are the most misinformed and ignorant of all...clueless about gearing, torque sensors, and cadence of an ebike...spouting off about things you that you know nothing about = true liar....


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> Honestly LTZ, my take on this is you came here hoping you could convince us that your illegal trail riding is ok so that you could justify it in your mind. As you've seen, that isn't going to happen.
> 
> I actually did the research on you because I suspected you were an industry shill and I came across your past. You basically brushed it off saying you are now a changed man and no longer seek speed and power. Another poster pointed out that the trails around you do not allow eBikes and asked you what trails you ride. You wouldn't name any trails but repeated that you ride it on trails. I posted a summery and pointed out that your refusal to name the trails (though I'm sure we can dig that up if we want to) pretty much looked like a confession that you ride illegally. You then went Pee Wee Herman on us with a "I know you are but what am I" type campaign, posting youtube vids of Red Bull riders crashing and trying to claim that your riding isn't any worse than ours, again trying to justify your illegal riding.
> 
> ...


Yes Sir and thats the truth, I don't ride too fast on the trails like I stated before I stay with the flow, but have had fast riders pass me and leave me in their dust...
And I'm just one of many who has been enjoying the exercise, helping others on the trail, being courteous, respectful, and making friends out on the trail...the old man that was riding a Specialized ebike was a 60+ and having a great time with his friends who weren't on ebikes...we both did...and had a good chat after the rides...

That seems to be a problems for folks here on MTBR...sad, really sad lot all of you are, but what goes round comes round...

And according to you, folks can't change their thought process and the way they do things...so it's very funny and very strange at the same time...

The BIGGEST liars on here are the folks that know nothing about ebikes and the way they work...but keep talking about them like they do....thats TRUE liars....in every sense of the word....they know nothing about a Prodeco 500 Watt hub motor is called 500 watt but ONLY puts out 35NM of Torque, so in order to get the Torque even close to a Brose 250 Watt motor you would have to bump it up to 1350 Watts...lol....would it be worth it? No, it wouldn't last very long, you couldn't ride very far...it would be a joke...

Thats why I bought a bike with a 250 Watt DAPU and then a Brose System...quiet, 96NM of torque, inconspicuous system so it isn't advertised....

You folks must think everyone is as dumb as you look?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> Also, I have this mental image of LTZ470 frantically searching wikipedia and youtube in reponse to posts in order to "fit in" with the mountain biking community. So funny. What a turd.


When one is dealing with ignorant/uninformed folks, one has to use wisdom, experience, and knowledge to lift/bring them up to a higher level of informed knowledge, so they can better assess for themselves the reality of the things being spoken...some require special tools like video's and/or reading material to probe the natural thought process we all have, but isn't used especially when the ignorant/uniformed folks trying to gain the knowledge are talking out their ar$e for the most part = Bump....


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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

Wow. This like an energizer bunny thread. It just keeps on going and going...

Fer cryin' out loud, can we stop this blather?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

ravewoofer said:


> Wow. This like an energizer bunny thread. It just keeps on going and going...
> 
> Fer cryin' out loud, can we stop this blather?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I tried to nip it in the bud, but now it's blossomed into a full on multi-thread ****-show. The only thing that will stop it is when LTZ looses his internet access.

Looks like he's got a full charge on his batteries today.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> I tried to nip it in the bud, but now it's blossomed into a full on multi-thread ****-show. The only thing that will stop it is when LTZ looses his internet access.
> 
> Looks like he's got a full charge on his batteries today.


Yes Sir it's a challenge to help ignorant folks get their head around reality some times, but in the end it's worth it...all of us walk away better informed and better equipped...

Life isn't easy, but it's good....always learning...


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

chazpat said:


> And cyclist still do business with this guy? Is this known by the cycling community? Rides illegally and cheats, not someone I would do business with.


Yeah, I don't get it at all. It's definitely no secret when he's naming rides "turbo fun" and whatnot. My best guess is that he's laying down Strava times to sell the bikes to other people who don't care about their legality. "look how fast you can ride with this thing"....$$$cha-ching$$$!



J.B. Weld said:


> That's difficult to believe. Not the fact that the shop owner rides his product illegally but that he can't climb faster with ~2x more power than normal.


I don't know how many times this has to be said, but 250w is not a lot of power, and not more than an average cyclist can produce. Several segments I rode yesterday, I averaged more than 300w, and certainly short duration peaks were much higher than that. People want to say Strava isn't accurate, but back in the day testing I did at the US Olympic training center also said most of us were far exceeding the output of the class 1 e-bikes being sold today.

.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

_CJ said:


> I don't know how many times this has to be said, but 250w is not a lot of power, and not more than an average cyclist can produce. Several segments I rode yesterday, I averaged more than 300w, and certainly short duration peaks were much higher than that. People want to say Strava isn't accurate, but back in the day testing I did at the US Olympic training center also said most of us were far exceeding the output of the class 1 e-bikes being sold today.


So how does this work, is the ebike adding 250w to the output of the rider? Or does the ebike stop assisting once you hit 250w? So for example if the rider is putting out 100w, does the ebike provide another 150w? Or does the rider put out 100w plus the ebike's 250w for a total of 350w?

My big concern is that while class 1 ebikes don't seem to be too bad (though they do seem to cause more damage than unmotorized mtbs), what happens when higher-powered ebikes hit the trails? Sure, you might outlaw anything above class 1, but right now even class 1's are illegal and that doesn't seem to stop anyone from riding them where they don't belong.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

kpdemello said:


> So how does this work, is the ebike adding 250w to the output of the rider? Or does the ebike stop assisting once you hit 250w? So for example if the rider is putting out 100w, does the ebike provide another 150w? Or does the rider put out 100w plus the ebike's 250w for a total of 350w?
> 
> My big concern is that while class 1 ebikes don't seem to be too bad (though they do seem to cause more damage than unmotorized mtbs), what happens when higher-powered ebikes hit the trails? Sure, you might outlaw anything above class 1, but right now even class 1's are illegal and that doesn't seem to stop anyone from riding them where they don't belong.


If the torque sensor doesn't "see" any torque motor will not pull/shuts off...so if you are in a lower gear and your cadence starts over speeding, no torque will be seen and motor will not be pulling at all...if you stop pedaling, no torque is "seen" and motor will not pull...a lot of folks here are thinking one will be able to pull up hills in high gear when they will never actually even get close to that unless the trail is straight as an arrow, which trails are that straight?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> imes this has to be said, but 250w is not a lot of power, and not more than an average cyclist can produce. Several segments I rode yesterday, I averaged more than 300w, and certainly short duration peaks were much higher than that. People want to say Strava isn't accurate, but back in the day testing I did at the US Olympic training center also said most of us were far exceeding the output of the class 1 e-bikes being sold today.


I don't think Strava's wattage estimates are very accurate but assuming they are why am I in the top 5% with an estimated ~250 watts on pretty much every segment?

Most electric motors are rated @ continuous load, an e-bike rated @250 watts will peak somewhere around 500 watts.
Also even if an average cyclist does produce average of 250 watts it's still all about power to weight ratio. A 180# rider producing 250w has a power to weight ratio of 3.06w/kg, compare that to a 20 pound 250w motor for 27w/kg.

Also 250w is totally arbitrary

The obvious truth-


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

kpdemello said:


> So how does this work, is the ebike adding 250w to the output of the rider? Or does the ebike stop assisting once you hit 250w? So for example if the rider is putting out 100w, does the ebike provide another 150w? Or does the rider put out 100w plus the ebike's 250w for a total of 350w?


Depends on the bike, but on a 250w OEM bike which has a torque sensor, the harder you're pedalling, the more power the motor puts out, that is also dependant on what power setting you're using. A typical range of assist is 50-300% of what you are putting into the system, limited by the peak output of the motor, which for a 250w motor is just over 500w. So, at max assist, if you're putting out 150w on a steady climb, the bike could add 450w on top of that.

On a kit bike, or older OEM bikes, if you don't have a torque sensor, PAS is based on cadence and the settings act more like cruise control. So, you pedal, and the motor kicks in a set amount on top of whatever you are putting out.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

The wrong person sees someone riding an e-bike on my local mountain bike trails (which we fought long and hard for) and I am the one that has to answer for it. If the wrong person starts seeing them regularly, I and all the other mountain bikers are the ones who will get shut out of the trails we advocated for, built, and maintain. The 'no motor' line is very, very real when it comes to access. 

I could give a damn what anyone rides but an e-bike is completely different animal from what has traditionally defined a bicycle, and that is 100% because it has a motor. Size nor type nor actuation method doesn't matter; the simple fact that a motor is present means this is a whole new user group, and forcing mountain bikers to take responsibility for it is BS. Stand on your own feet; leave us out of it.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Why do you care? I have read quite a few threads on the OC, talk about 10 pages of :crazy:


Are you going to neg rep me for that comment just like you did last week for no reason?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't think Strava's wattage estimates are very accurate but assuming they are why am I in the top 5% with an estimated ~250 watts on pretty much every segment?
> 
> Most electric motors are rated @ continuous load, an e-bike rated @250 watts will peak somewhere around 500 watts.
> Also even if an average cyclist does produce average of 250 watts it's still all about power to weight ratio. A 180# rider producing 250w has a power to weight ratio of 3.06w/kg, compare that to a 20 pound 250w motor for 27w/kg.


I think everyone is getting wound up into a tizzy because 500w or 1000w sounds like so much more than 250w. Lets not lose sight of the fact that 750w = 1HP. In the real world, the difference between 1/3 HP and 1 HP on a bike hauling 200+ pounds is almost nothing.

We all know how pathetic your average 49cc scooter is. Guess how much power they make. 3HP. So even a super duper hot-rod e-bike is only going to have 1/3 the power of your average pathetic scooter that has trouble hauling a fat old DUI guy to the liquor store on flat paved ground.

e-bikes are not motos. They are not going to "tear up the trails" any more than non-motorized. Downhill speeds of non-motorized bikes and potential for serious collision are far greater than an ebike going uphill (think momentum plus gravity there), but I don't see anyone launching anti-downhill campaigns, or calling out gravity junkies on their signatures or avatars. Are the people who shuttle runs, or even those who ride to the top somehow more trustworthy, or more courteous to other trail users that e-bikers? Based on the number of people in body armor and full face helmets I've had close calls with, I'd say the answer is a resounding no.

.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Well, in theory, tripling the amount of power put into the rear wheel would make that bike + rider go uphill three times as fast. Now, think about someone riding a 3,000w e-bike up that hill. 

Even if someone is riding in the most responsible way possible down a hill, the possibility of a conflict goes up significantly when you have someone going up the trail at 25mph instead of 8mph like most other people. The closing speed goes up. Massively.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

_CJ said:


> e-bikes are not motos. They are not going to "tear up the trails" any more than non-motorized. Downhill speeds of non-motorized bikes and potential for serious collision are far greater than an ebike going uphill (think momentum plus gravity there), but I don't see anyone launching anti-downhill campaigns, or calling out gravity junkies on their signatures or avatars. Are the people who shuttle runs, or even those who ride to the top somehow more trustworthy, or more courteous to other trail users that e-bikers? Based on the number of people in body armor and full face helmets I've had close calls with, I'd say the answer is a resounding no..


I'm pretty sure hikers and equestrians usually don't hang out on downhill runs...


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Well, in theory, tripling the amount of power put into the rear wheel would make that bike + rider go uphill three times as fast.


Not even close.



> Now, think about someone riding a 3,000w e-bike up that hill.
> 
> Even if someone is riding in the most responsible way possible down a hill, the possibility of a conflict goes up significantly when you have someone going up the trail at 25mph instead of 8mph like most other people. The closing speed goes up. Massively.


Now you're coming back to rider responsibility. Somehow 25+mph downhill is acceptable, but not uphill? The downhill speed is clearly far more dangerous difficult to control because it has "gravity assist".


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Cornfield said:


> I'm pretty sure hikers and equestrians usually don't hang out on downhill runs...


ALL THE TIME where I live, but they're not "downhill runs", they're multi-use, bi-directional trails that idiots like to treat like their own personal world cup downhill course after being dropped off up top by their mom.

.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

_CJ said:


> ALL THE TIME where I live, but they're not "downhill runs", they're multi-use, bi-directional trails that idiots like to treat like their own personal world cup downhill course after being dropped off up top by their mom.
> 
> .


This is exactly why acceptance of ebikes on ALL non-motorized trails *(that currently allow bikes) is not a good thing. Idiots on bikes endangering other trail users is another issue.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

_CJ said:


> Not even close.
> 
> Now you're coming back to rider responsibility. Somehow 25+mph downhill is acceptable, but not uphill? The downhill speed is clearly far more dangerous difficult to control because it has "gravity assist".


So somehow, by some twist in logic 25 mph downhill is more egregious than 25 mph uphill. Got it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> I think everyone is getting wound up into a tizzy because 500w or 1000w sounds like so much more than 250w. Lets not lose sight of the fact that 750w = 1HP.


Maybe 1000 watts sounds like more than 250 watts because it's 4x more? I don't know. Let's also not lose sight of the fact that the average cyclist puts out about 1/3 hp at best. Is it really necessary to post yet another youtube vid of a 1000w e-bike brappping along @75kph?

Not concerned about e-motos tearing up trails or riding them in bike parks & shuttle runs. I don't think any of the "antis" are.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Judging from reasoning applied by the "pros" here they would be hypocrites to impose any power limitations on a "bicycle" whatsoever, and I would suggest that most of them are. 250 is just an arbitrary number that gets ones foot stuck in the door.

Why 250?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

_CJ said:


> Not even close.
> 
> Now you're coming back to rider responsibility. Somehow 25+mph downhill is acceptable, but not uphill? The downhill speed is clearly far more dangerous difficult to control because it has "gravity assist".


Well, actually, yes.

Up to 17-18mph, climbing speed is going to be determined by watts per kg. If you and your bike weigh 75kg, and you put out 250w to go 5mph up a hill, you will go 15mph at 750w, with no other changes to the system. I'm not sure why this is even in question.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes Sir it's a challenge to help ignorant folks get their head around reality some times, but in the end it's worth it...all of us walk away better informed and better equipped...
> 
> Life isn't easy, but it's good....always learning...


I know it appears to be an important cause for you, but you will find few sympathizers out here.

The bottom line for the majority of us is that an ebike loses it's bike designation due to the motor. if someone wants to enjoy it, so be it. But for now, they are not allowed on many of our trails.

The majority of us will not change our minds about the issue of access.


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## Xaero (Mar 18, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Is it really necessary to post yet another youtube vid of a 1000w e-bike brappping along @75kph?


It should be posted every time LTZ says emotorbikes have a limiter and can only go 25mph or it won't tear up trails.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Xaero said:


> It should be posted every time LTZ says emotorbikes have a limiter and can only go 25mph or it won't tear up trails.


Lol...please post one of a 1000watt ebike doing 75kph on forest single track and I'll concede...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> Lol...please post one of a 1000watt ebike doing 75kph on forest single track and I'll concede...


Semantics. There are 10,000 watt e-bikes doing just that.






Coming to a trail near you.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> Semantics. There are 10,000 watt e-bikes doing just that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy emonster from hell batman! 70mph on a dirt trail with people running on the side a few feet from him? That a-hole should be arrested. That is some seriously dangerous sh!t!!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Here's another, I can't see exactly how fast they're going but hauling some serious @ss for certain.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Lol...please post one of a 1000watt ebike doing 75kph on forest single track and I'll concede...


How about a derestricted 250w emtb doing 72kph in the woods? Not exactly what you asked for, but close.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

That last one kind of settles it for me. Nothing with a motor should be allowed on non-motorized single track. You want to ride your emachine? Great. Looks like fun. Go do it on moto trails (of which there are plenty enough around).


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Is that good LTZ or you want some more?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Well, that's it. 

After nine pages of arguing, you guys have changed my mind.




said no one ever on the internet. and for that reason, I'm out. Should be interesting to see how it all plays out.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Harryman said:


> How about a derestricted 250w emtb doing 72kph in the woods? Not exactly what you asked for, but close.


Holy ****. And that's why we can't have nice things.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Are you going to neg rep me for that comment just like you did last week for no reason?


Are you going to cry about that all week like you did last time

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Are you going to cry about that all week like you did last time
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Look out DJ, I think SF is finishing up his beer!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Well, that's it.
> 
> After nine pages of arguing, you guys have changed my mind.
> 
> said no one ever on the internet.


You're wrong. I'm kind of wanting one of those e-rockets now!


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

If anyone needs convincing that ebikes shouldn't be allowed on non-motorized trails, there's plenty of material right here on this forum to look through:

Trail Building and Advocacy - Mtbr.com


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Harryman said:


> How about a derestricted 250w emtb doing 72kph in the woods? Not exactly what you asked for, but close.


No sir, I want to see 75 kph on tight technical switchbacks and tree hugging single track like what we ride...those trails I could ride my Jeep or my RZR on...lol...and I have ridden both of them on trails like that at Rainbow Falls OHV in Colorado...but I wouldn't ride my emtb there...

And in the US as well...are those Speed Modules even available in the USA? If they are they are illegal, for sure...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> No sir, I want to see 75 kph on tight technical switchbacks and tree hugging single track like what we ride...


Do you suppose it's possible that some singletrack isn't like what "we" ride?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Do you suppose it's possible that some singletrack isn't like what "we" ride?


Those trails are in Germany it seems and I haven't seen anything like that here except Lake Ray Roberts Greenbelt Corridor double track, wide open places...my point is YOU and I can't ride ANYTHING like that on the single track trails, because the trees will start jumping out in front of you for sure...quick way for a one way trip to the hospital if he tried riding that on the trails we ride...he would last 5 minutes tops...then a Med-Evac Flight would be on the way...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Those trails are in Germany it seems and I haven't seen anything like that here except Lake Ray Roberts Greenbelt Corridor double track, wide open places...my point is YOU and I can't ride ANYTHING like that on the single track trails, because the trees will start jumping out in front of you for sure...


Uh huh... trees.

View attachment 1136196


They'll come out of nowhere and get you I tell ya, I've had them jump me on several occasions. You just can't do that chit where "we" ride!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> Those trails are in Germany it seems and I haven't seen anything like that here except Lake Ray Roberts Greenbelt Corridor double track, wide open places...my point is YOU and I can't ride ANYTHING like that on the single track trails, because the trees will start jumping out in front of you for sure...quick way for a one way trip to the hospital if he tried riding that on the trails we ride...he would last 5 minutes tops...then a Med-Evac Flight would be on the way...


Says you. Keep cherry picking, the point has been amply proved and your the only one that continues to be willfully ignorant about the issue of calling them bicycles. Continue trolling if you must but your arguing over minutia isn't even plausible anymore.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> No sir, I want to see 75 kph on tight technical switchbacks and tree hugging single track like what we ride...those trails I could ride my Jeep or my RZR on...lol...and I have ridden both of them on trails like that at Rainbow Falls OHV in Colorado...but I wouldn't ride my emtb there...
> 
> And in the US as well...are those Speed Modules even available in the USA? If they are they are illegal, for sure...


Hey, you set the specifications for the video, not me. If you've ridden all over the west, certainly you know that there's some singletrack out here that doesn't twist upon itself every 10 feet?

Dongles are freely available in the US, there's no law against selling them, all you need to derestrict a Levo is a free app on your phone. Even people on this forum have derestricted their ebikes. It kind of changes your perspective on supposedly mild mannered 250w bikes doesn't it?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Harryman said:


> Hey, you set the specifications for the video, not me. If you've ridden all over the west, certainly you know that there's some singletrack out here that doesn't twist upon itself every 10 feet?
> 
> Dongles are freely available in the US, there's no law against selling them, all you need to derestrict a Levo is a free app on your phone. Even people on this forum have derestricted their ebikes. It kind of changes your perspective on supposedly mild mannered 250w bikes doesn't it?


Dongles are actually available in the US? I thought those were EU only? I don't believe they are allowed here, to be honest, but I haven't checked either...

No Sir, all's I've actually ridden out there was single track trails on emtb...there is some more open trails in the desert but nothing you could safely pass at any speed, and dang sure couldn't go 72 kph...would have like to seen his actual speedo while he was going good just to confirm, cameras are a bit misleading for sure...MOST speed claims are just that claims...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Says you. Keep cherry picking, the point has been amply proved and your the only one that continues to be willfully ignorant about the issue of calling them bicycles. Continue trolling if you must but your arguing over minutia isn't even plausible anymore.


I usually label them emtb's and can't really remember labeling them as bicycles, can you refresh my memory on where I labelled them as bicycles?


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> Semantics. There are 10,000 watt e-bikes doing just that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





J.B. Weld said:


> Here's another, I can't see exactly how fast they're going but hauling some serious @ss for certain.


The level of disregard for other trail user's safety is astonishing.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> And in the US as well...are those Speed Modules even available in the USA? If they are they are illegal, for sure...


LOL. Yes that would be so convenient for your argument if dongles were illegal. Your posts are approaching foghorn leghorn status, "Boy oh boy, no sir, strictly 20mph for me, uhhhhyyyyuuuup, I say I say .... those should be illeeeeegal".

Its also very convenient that you seem to know so little about dongles, for someone who was caught discussing ebike mods on endless-sphere.

But, no, dongles are not illegal. They may, for example, make a Class 1 bike into a Class 3 bike - but doing that is not illegal. Even if the dongles were illegal, how would you enforce it? Customs is going to spot unmarked electronics? The customs form can say "They are control modules for industrial motors" and not be very far off.

This is the whole problem.

Ships to US:
bikespeed - simple and compact Pedelec tuning for all e-bikes with mid-engine design from bosch or yamaha

The Sx2 Dongle Shop

And there's always Ebay: 
bosch dongle | eBay

Don't miss this important caveat from a translated German Dongle Seller:

"We must nevertheless point out that the operation of the module on the public roads is prohibited is!"


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

kpdemello said:


> That last one kind of settles it for me. Nothing with a motor should be allowed on non-motorized single track. You want to ride your emachine? Great. Looks like fun. Go do it on moto trails (of which there are plenty enough around).


Which takes us back 10 pages to what I said in the beginning of this thread. Everything else beyond is the stuff that hot dogs are made from.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Which takes us back 10 pages to what I said in the beginning of this thread. Everything else beyond is the stuff that hot dogs are made from.


No way, hot dogs are good!

I hafta say that I was on the fence about allowing ebikes at the beginning of this thread, but not anymore, I been edumacated! :thumbsup:


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Harryman said:


> How about a derestricted 250w emtb doing 72kph in the woods? Not exactly what you asked for, but close.


This rider is an ass hat. With this I declare the the ebike will be the ultimate demise of mountain biking. Being that rude at that speed on these "machines" looking so similar to a mountain bike. Every other trail user that witnesses this behavior will be blaming it on mountain bikers. Which will ultimately get us banned from every open space we've worked so hard for decades to obtain access to.

Bring it on pro ebikers. Let me predict your come back. You will say It comes down to respectable riding. Sorry, but having that kind of acceleration and power on tap, few will be able to contain themselves.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Dongles are actually available in the US? I thought those were EU only? I don't believe they are allowed here, to be honest, but I haven't checked either...
> 
> No Sir, all's I've actually ridden out there was single track trails on emtb...there is some more open trails in the desert but nothing you could safely pass at any speed, and dang sure couldn't go 72 kph...would have like to seen his actual speedo while he was going good just to confirm, cameras are a bit misleading for sure...MOST speed claims are just that claims...


AFAIK, you can buy them here, you could always ship them in from the UK/EU, I buy my bike tires from Europe, it's not a big deal. Go to https://electricbikereview.com/forum/ and google dongles or tuning, since it's a US forum, there's probably discussions as to where they get them. They void your warranty, but most people don't seem to care since you can just unhook them and no one can tell, and even though it's been an issue for years in the EU, the manufacturers haven't taken any action, so I guess they don't care. They make noise about it, but nothing changes. In the states that have adopted the People4Bikes legislation, there's usually some text regarding how you can't tamper with your stickered ebike, but it's toothless.

It's interesting that in the UK, where there are serious fines for such thing, ebike riders on the whole are very disapproving of dongles and any high powered bikes, they like the access they have and are worried about losing it and see this sort of thing as a serious threat. Here though, in the land of rebels and freedom, it'll be the opposite, anything goes, just don't get caught.

Here's the same guy different 250w bike, still detuned and you can see his speedo, he hits 70 but it's on a gravel road, so you probably won't approve.  With most dongled bikes the power tapers off somewhere in the low 30s (mph), which makes sense since he spends a lot of time in the 40s and 50s (kph). riders say it's not like hitting the wall with the restrictor, it's more gradual. The amount of power is still the same obviously, it's just available almost all the time. He's on a 180mm DH bike, which if you've ever ridden one are crappy to climb on, but he does well and can carry scary speed on the flats. Which is what I find the most worrisome.






You might not have trails like that where you live, but there are certainly trails that would support that kind of speed here and elsewhere. I would certainly expect to see dongles easily accessible here as emtb numbers increase because going fast is fun and everyone hates that restriction limit, it's the number one gripe about riding an ebike. They'll just be sold "for private land use" like all the other naghty ebike things.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Harryman said:


> They'll just be sold "for private land use" like all the other naghty ebike things.


And gleefully pimped by MTBR advertisers.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Harryman said:


> AFAIK, you can buy them here, you could always ship them in from the UK/EU, I buy my bike tires from Europe, it's not a big deal. Go to https://electricbikereview.com/forum/ and google dongles or tuning, since it's a US forum, there's probably discussions as to where they get them. They void your warranty, but most people don't seem to care since you can just unhook them and no one can tell, and even though it's been an issue for years in the EU, the manufacturers haven't taken any action, so I guess they don't care. They make noise about it, but nothing changes. In the states that have adopted the People4Bikes legislation, there's usually some text regarding how you can't tamper with your stickered ebike, but it's toothless.
> 
> It's interesting that in the UK, where there are serious fines for such thing, ebike riders on the whole are very disapproving of dongles and any high powered bikes, they like the access they have and are worried about losing it and see this sort of thing as a serious threat. Here though, in the land of rebels and freedom, it'll be the opposite, anything goes, just don't get caught.
> 
> ...


No Sir, I think this is untrue as far as I can tell, talked to a guy riding backroads the other day and he said he had tried to locate a speed module or dongle for his yamaha, and they were not available in the US and they wouldn't ship to USA due to regulations? After you posted I tried Fleabay to see as they usually have anything available and none were available...GOOD NEWS....they are not needed and not required at all....

Revision after reading post above with bikespeed.de...they do ship to USA...bad news...of course they are illegal here...sorry to see this, but I still can't see but a select few even locating these to be honest...voids warranty, illegal, can get you killed....


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Silentfoe said:


> Holy ****. And that's why we can't have nice things.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Holy crap that thing is fast.
A motorbike like that and bicycle colliding on bi-directional trails will not end well.
On the flip-side, my friend that I started mtn biking with in '01 is having knee problems and has been unable to ride for several years, I could see this helping him.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Operating an e-bike on non-motorized trails at those speeds is at least reckless conduct if not reckless endangerment. Won't be long before we start reading about e-bikes causing injuries on MUP's and MUT's.

Why can't LTZ470 understand that he is advocating a motorcycle on a bicycle forum?

Can you give neg rep for pigheaded ignorance?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mileslong said:


> Can you give neg rep for pigheaded ignorance?


Yes.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

chazpat said:


> Look out DJ, I think SF is finishing up his beer!


I let him sleep it off. Hopefully he got some shut eye and had a Bloody Mary this morning to help with that hangover.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Revision after reading post above with bikespeed.de...they do ship to USA...bad news...of course they are illegal here...sorry to see this, but I still can't see but a select few even locating these to be honest...voids warranty, illegal, can get you killed....


There's not much interest in them now in the US since we're in the early days of Class 1 emtbs, they are statistically invisible pretty much everywhere except CA, but looking to where the markets are more mature, interest in them seems to be steady.

Speed Pedelecs (S-Pedelecs), Non-EAPCs & overseas | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community

Maybe we won't see as many here since the cut off speed is 20mph instead of 15.5mph? Hard to say. For anyone interested in going fast, it seems like a no brainer and once the second hand market develops, the warranty issue vanishes. Are they illegal? Not as far as I can tell. Using them on Class 1 only trails would be, but being illegal doesn't seem to stop anyone with a kitbike with both PAS and a throttle from riding on the trails.

There was one prolific poster on the ebike forums here a while back who like you would go on and on about how 250w/20mph was great, all anyone would ever need and then @ a month after he bought his Haibike, he dongled it. lol

Speed is seductive.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Revision after reading post above with bikespeed.de...they do ship to USA...bad news...of course they are illegal here...sorry to see this, but I still can't see but a select few even locating these to be honest...voids warranty, illegal, can get you killed....


Again, under which statute are dongles illegal to sell and/or install?

Legally, you can build anything you want, whether through your own motors, dongles, batteries, whatever. At some point it just stops being a type 1, type 2, or type 3 e-bike, and at some point it stops being legal to ride on roads. But THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT - *you can build and possess a bike that is not legal to ride where you are riding it, but your typical ranger will not be able to evaluate the difference on the trail. *

*Are you seriously not getting this point or are you just passive-aggressively overlooking it? Squirrel! *


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Procter said:


> Again, under which statute are dongles illegal to sell and/or install?
> 
> Legally, you can build anything you want, whether through your own motors, dongles, batteries, whatever. At some point it just stops being a type 1, type 2, or type 3 e-bike, and at some point it stops being legal to ride on roads. But THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT - *you can build and possess a bike that is not legal to ride where you are riding it, but your typical ranger will not be able to evaluate the difference on the trail. *
> 
> *Are you seriously not getting this point or are you just passive-aggressively overlooking it? Squirrel! *


Yes sir fully understood, but haven't seen anything of the sort and I have rode MANY trails here...so I think we are crying wolf too soon, which from an access POV there is no such thing as "too soon"...

Yes, I eat squirrel me and my Grandson killed a few and ate them for breakfast a few weeks ago...they were good, taste like squirrel!


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

E-Bike Tuning: When fast isn't fast enough | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine
Legal, illegal, who cares?
E-bikes with pedal support of up to 25 km/h, a nominal motor power of 250 watts maximum, and a power assist of 6 km/h maximum are categorised legally as normal bicycles; the rider is not subject to any additional rules and regulations. If the pedal support still functions above 25 km/h, then the bike becomes a so-called low-power bike. This needs an insurance number plate and must be registered. This last rule will above all make riding a tuned e-bike legally in public spaces as good as impossible.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Of course, because of the laws, no one in Europe would ever derestrict their ebikes where unlike the US, there are actually consequences if you are caught not in compliance.

German Industry Calls for Measures Against E-Bike Tuning - Bike Europe

Selling E-Bike Tuning Kits; Implications & Legalities

Off-road ebikes could be banned due to removal of speed limitations by "irresponsible dealers" - MBR

Speed Tuning Kits Threaten E-Bike Market Development

It's been going on a for a number of years there without any sign of slowing down, we might as well ignore it, right?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Harryman said:


> Of course, because of the laws, no one in Europe would ever derestrict their ebikes where unlike the US, there are actually consequences if you are caught not in compliance.
> 
> German Industry Calls for Measures Against E-Bike Tuning - Bike Europe
> 
> ...


Not at all, on the contrary, we need to educate folks on trail access, and how even Class 1 emtb's can hurt residing access...


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I gotta say LTZ, you have stamina. May or may not have been gained by riding an e-assist bike, but you have forum stamina anyway.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

I'm assuming he's retired and therefore has unlimited time to cook up an endless parade of ebike arguments.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Not at all, on the contrary, we need to educate folks on trail access, and how even Class 1 emtb's can hurt residing access...


Why don't you go try to educate 20 year old Honda tuners on the dangers of street racing or educate Harley riders in the illegality of their mufflers. You'll be equally successful there.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Procter said:


> Why don't you go try to educate 20 year old Honda tuners on the dangers of street racing or educate Harley riders in the illegality of their mufflers. You'll be equally successful there.


Is someone assigned to pi$$ in you guy's wheaties everyday? Must be the way you all are equally negatively abrasive...


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Is someone assigned to pi$$ in you guy's wheaties everyday? Must be the way you all are equally negatively abrasive...


It's the use of logic and reason that makes us all grumpy and negative.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> It's the use of logic and reason that makes us all grumpy and negative.


Well, quit using it and light this place up a bit! A beer is in order...


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Well, quit using it and light this place up a bit! A beer is in order...


And then we can we go riding together tomorrow handing out snacks and making sure everyone on the trail is ok and having a good time!

Gee, that'd be swell, wouldn't it?


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Is someone assigned to pi$$ in you guy's wheaties everyday? Must be the way you all are equally negatively abrasive...


Just yours, LTZ. Just your wheaties.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Procter said:


> Just yours, LTZ. Just your wheaties.


Lol...I thought they were a bit on the watered down side...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> And then we can we go riding together tomorrow handing out snacks and making sure everyone on the trail is ok and having a good time!
> 
> Gee, that'd be swell, wouldn't it?


Opie would love that...and we could invite Forest too...


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

LTZ470 said:


> Well, quit using it and light this place up a bit! A beer is in order...
> View attachment 1136441


Oh a nice wheet beer yum


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Hey! I'm heading over to the NRA website to provide them my views on how we need stricter gun control! I plan to argue with everyone there by posting a bunch of stupidity and ignoring anything worthwhile any of them bring up by just blathering on and on. I'm sure I'll be warmly welcomed, they're going to love me.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

swingset said:


> Meh, doesn't pick my pocket or break my leg. If his battery is faster than my legs, I let them pass.
> 
> I think more damage to our trails has occurred by Strava weenies trying to cheat their times with trail neutering.
> 
> Can I pick which to burn? I'd burn Strava down.


Thank you Strava riders in a public Mt bike park are an enemy to the trails there is a place in time for every thing not when hikers dog walker and my kids are out on the trails a public mt bike park is not a race course .


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> Hey! I'm heading over to the NRA website to provide them my views on how we need stricter gun control! I plan to argue with everyone there by posting a bunch of stupidity and ignoring anything worthwhile any of them bring up by just blathering on and on. I'm sure I'll be warmly welcomed, they're going to love me.


Better take this with you, trying to figure out how to mount it on my emtb...


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

So let me get this straight; there's a bunch of asshats on mountain bikes already, and you think introducing more power with pedal assist is a good thing?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> So let me get this straight; there's a bunch of asshats on mountain bikes already, and you think introducing more power with pedal assist is a good thing?


If will stop them from pi$$ing in my wheaties...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> So let me get this straight; there's a bunch of asshats on mountain bikes already, and you think introducing more power with pedal assist is a good thing?


I think ALL of you should ride an emtb for a week and then come back and give reviews of your experiences, from that we could really gain some good knowledge and insight critical to assess the future path of emtb's...


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## jimbowho (Dec 16, 2009)

I wish I had an ebody like Steve Austin so I can blitz up the hills. On the downhills I just want quiet brakes.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> I think ALL of you should ride an emtb for a week and then come back and give reviews of your experiences, from that we could really gain some good knowledge and insight critical to assess the future path of emtb's...


Oh, good grief. One last attempt.

I have no doubt riding an ebike would be a lot of fun. Are you a hunter? Why do they have limits on hunting? Is it really going to hurt anything if you go over the limit? No. But what if lots of people have this attitude and go over their limit? Guess what, the sport will eventually be harmed and you and everyone else will no longer be able to go out and enjoy hunting.

This is a point that you keep ignoring. It seems like you really do not care. If you do whatever you want and you and others' actions lead to the loss of our favorite recreational activity, you'd just say "oh, well, fun while it lasted" and go back to your atvs.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> I think ALL of you should ride an emtb for a week and then come back and give reviews of your experiences, from that we could really gain some good knowledge and insight critical to assess the future path of emtb's...


Oy! Not the, "see how fun they are" argument again. That's NOT what this is about. It never has been.

For a clue, see my sig, (below).


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## oikeith (Feb 15, 2017)

There seems to be a lot of twisted knickers in here. If these bikes allow people that enjoy riding two wheels to ride two wheels then so be it. 

The argument about how fast the e-mtb can go is pointless when you still have roadies or mtb users chasing KOMs or just going fast cos its fun and running adults, children, dogs over etc! Hell I've even knocked over a women who was walking her dog up an offpiste trail at trail centre. Do you think she cared whether the bike had a motor or not or whether I got the KOM?


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

oikeith said:


> There seems to be a lot of twisted knickers in here. If these bikes allow people that enjoy riding two wheels to ride two wheels then so be it.
> 
> The argument about how fast the e-mtb can go is pointless when you still have roadies or mtb users chasing KOMs or just going fast cos its fun and running adults, children, dogs over etc! Hell I've even knocked over a women who was walking her dog up an offpiste trail at trail centre. Do you think she cared whether the bike had a motor or not or whether I got the KOM?


In response.


BumpityBump said:


> As clarification of my earlier comment, the concern for many, myself included, is not with ebikes themselves, but rather the use of ebikes on designated non-motorized trails. This has the potential to set legal precedent for opening more access by motorcycles and ATVs. I am a proponent of ebikes for non-trail use. AND I am a dual sport motorcycle owner.


Also, why did you not yield to the lady walking her dog? You should have pulled off trail and let her pass.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Is someone assigned to pi$$ in you guy's wheaties everyday? Must be the way you all are equally negatively abrasive...


 Well this is the mountain bike forum. Anything cutting into our already tenuous trail access gets us cranky. Including e motorcycles.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> I think ALL of you should ride an emtb for a week and then come back and give reviews of your experiences, from that we could really gain some good knowledge and insight critical to assess the future path of emtb's...


 I test rode one. A ( kick me now in head a most regrettable choice) Haibike. 500 watt rear hub. 28 mph in 10 pedal strokes on a dirt road. No thanks. Ugggg. Way too heavy to loft over rocks and logs that are everywhere here in New England. Crazy fast. Whatev. Future? Perfect for commuting, 1 less car, cargo e bikes for food, kids, dogs, drunk pedicab passengers. Awesome. Those commutes with ( wait for it) excessive hills or really long distances. Future? Not here in MA, illegal for the most part here on multi use off road trails in state parks. Future? Dim. Very dim. Keep them in Texas, YeeeHaw. Dude.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

oikeith said:


> There seems to be a lot of twisted knickers in here. If these bikes allow people that enjoy riding two wheels to ride two wheels then so be it.
> 
> The argument about how fast the e-mtb can go is pointless when you still have roadies or mtb users chasing KOMs or just going fast cos its fun and running adults, children, dogs over etc! Hell I've even knocked over a women who was walking her dog up an offpiste trail at trail centre. Do you think she cared whether the bike had a motor or not or whether I got the KOM?


 Bikes don't have motors.


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## Arebee (Sep 13, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> This rider is an ass hat. With this I declare the the ebike will be the ultimate demise of mountain biking. Being that rude at that speed on these "machines" looking so similar to a mountain bike. Every other trail user that witnesses this behavior will be blaming it on mountain bikers. Which will ultimately get us banned from every open space we've worked so hard for decades to obtain access to.


This guy modified his mountain bike with an electric motor and is riding local trails that we share with dog walkers, hikers and horses.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZjJRRZrfRo3tFecAxSPAFA

These trails are owned by the local water company and their rules clearly state that "No motor vehicles of any kind are allowed beyond the parking areas."

The water company lost a $2.9 million lawsuit a few years back to a woman who crashed into a closed gate. The woman was riding her mountain bike down a hill in the wrong direction around 20 to 30 mph with her head down. They almost shut down access to bikes at that time.

The first time somebody complains about this speeding noisemaker spooking a horse or a dog, we'll all lose access to the trails.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

LTZ470 said:


> I think ALL of you should ride an emtb for a week and then come back and give reviews of your experiences, from that we could really gain some good knowledge and insight critical to assess the future path of emtb's...


No offense, but I don't really want to spend the money or the time trying out an ebike so I can try to understand your hobby. If you want access to non-motorized trails, you've got to be the one to demonstrate through real, scientific evidence that your hobby a) isn't damaging the trails and b) isn't causing traffic/congestion/other social issues on the trails. The burden is on you, not me.

MTB riders went through this process and worked long and hard to secure access. MTB advocacy groups still work on maintaining access, building trails, and supporting state/national parks. You want your e-machine to have access? Go through the process. Do the studies. Make your case to the land managers. Posting a few youtube videos on an MTB forum isn't going to make a difference.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

That frigging guy and his buzzy bike annoy me.
I've seen his vids before. 

IMO, this is where the majority of e-bikes are likely headed and exactly why LMs need to be able to distinguish between them and real bikes when it comes to access. Let e-bikes be an e-biker problem and leave real bikers out of it.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

kpdemello said:


> MTB riders went through this process and worked long and hard to secure access. MTB advocacy groups still work on maintaining access, building trails, and supporting state/national parks. You want your e-machine to have access? Go through the process. Do the studies. Make your case to the land managers. Posting a few youtube videos on an MTB forum isn't going to make a difference.


Sticky this at the top of the motorbike forum please.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

A e bike is a lot safer for other trail users in that we don't need to carry speed so much and we can stop and start very easily , and I have no need for a 7ft ramp or a high banked wooden wall turn . Too many Mt bikers ride with there head down pumping for fast time and coming down hill there is no need to charge down carrying speed to make a climb back up and a lot of e bikers are old experienced riders are racing days are long behind us we just want to enjoy the trail . I have been trail riding one for 5yrs now and I find myself just loping along its never about going as fast as I can which is about 28mph I get passed by thunder heads all the time to each his own but don't run over the hikers .


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)




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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> That frigging guy and his buzzy bike annoy me.
> I've seen his vids before.
> 
> IMO, this is where the majority of e-bikes are likely headed and exactly why LMs need to be able to distinguish between them and real bikes when it comes to access. Let e-bikes be an e-biker problem and leave real bikers out of it.


LOL and I like the one video that says "The Hardcore Guys" it is a moped, come on.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

rider95 said:


> A e bike is a lot safer for other trail users in that we don't need to carry speed so much and we can stop and start very easily , and I have no need for a 7ft ramp or a high banked wooden wall turn . Too many Mt bikers ride with there head down pumping for fast time and coming down hill there is no need to charge down carrying speed to make a climb back up and a lot of e bikers are old experienced riders are racing days are long behind us we just want to enjoy the trail . I have been trail riding one for 5yrs now and I find myself just loping along its never about going as fast as I can which is about 28mph I get passed by thunder heads all the time to each his own but don't run over the hikers .


I guess you didn't get my point last night.

Allowing motors on bikes will allow those bikers "pumping for fast time" to ride even faster.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

rider95 said:


> A e bike is a lot safer for other trail users in that we don't need to carry speed so much and we can stop and start very easily , and I have no need for a 7ft ramp or a high banked wooden wall turn . Too many Mt bikers ride with there head down pumping for fast time and coming down hill there is no need to charge down carrying speed to make a climb back up and a lot of e bikers are old experienced riders are racing days are long behind us we just want to enjoy the trail . I have been trail riding one for 5yrs now and I find myself just loping along its never about going as fast as I can which is about 28mph I get passed by thunder heads all the time to each his own but don't run over the hikers .


 Loping along at 28 mph? Yikes.


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## Arebee (Sep 13, 2012)

jcd46 said:


> LOL and I like the one video that says "The Hardcore Guys" it is a moped, come on.


That cracked me up too! LMAO! He also has a hack in there to make the sewing machine run faster.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

leeboh said:


> Loping along at 28 mph? Yikes.


Agreed, this smacks of someone that has no concept of the typical speed of non-motorized (eg. actual) mountain bikes.

I saw reference elsewhere by a poster in this whole e-bike commentary mess started by LTZ470 who wasn't sure but thinking an uphill climber on a non-motorized bike might be about 20 mph. :eekster:

It's pretty obvious some of these people are entirely clueless about what non-motorized mountain biking entails.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Yeah, I have to come clean, something I didn't realize until yesterday, the BH Emotion Neo Jumper I have is actually a Class 2 ebike, didn't have any idea until I started searching the specs on the hub motor to confirm it is 250w and it's not it's a 350w motor...so it is actually rated for 25mph...the Bulls FS Enduro should arrive Friday hopefully and it is a Class 1 for sure...250watt...20mph max...giving the Neo Jumper to my Sister In Law who rides road only, she loves it, but I know the standover height is too high for her, that is one of the mistakes they made on that bike, standover is like 33.5"....


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chuckha62 said:


> Oy! Not the, "see how fun they are" argument again. That's NOT what this is about. It never has been.
> 
> For a clue, see my sig, (below).


What if it's a trailer bike...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

BumpityBump said:


> Agreed, this smacks of someone that has no concept of the typical speed of non-motorized (eg. actual) mountain bikes.
> 
> I saw reference elsewhere by a poster in this whole e-bike commentary mess started by LTZ470 who wasn't sure but thinking an uphill climber on a non-motorized bike might be about 20 mph. :eekster:
> 
> It's pretty obvious some of these people are entirely clueless about what non-motorized mountain biking entails.


I think Walt said he could do 20mph on some of the hills and sustain 20-25mph on the flat fairly easily...thats smoking fast...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

leeboh said:


> Loping along at 28 mph? Yikes.


I think that is top speed for me on my Neo Jumper...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> View attachment 1136545


LMBO...there's no gettin over on Cornfield...may your popcorn never pop Cornfield and your beers all foam over...better yet no foam, just flat...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

oikeith said:


> There seems to be a lot of twisted knickers in here. If these bikes allow people that enjoy riding two wheels to ride two wheels then so be it.
> 
> The argument about how fast the e-mtb can go is pointless when you still have roadies or mtb users chasing KOMs or just going fast cos its fun and running adults, children, dogs over etc! Hell I've even knocked over a women who was walking her dog up an offpiste trail at trail centre. Do you think she cared whether the bike had a motor or not or whether I got the KOM?


Lol...hope you have your flak jacket on...


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Found the 20MPH comment, and my bad for not remembering the context. Still, **** e-bikes on single track.



ARandomBiker said:


> When eBikes were first "a thing" I was all fired up 'because cheating'. I honestly let that go pretty quickly.
> 
> These guys summed it up really well already, so I'll just say '+1' to both posts.
> 
> ...


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> LMBO...there's no gettin over on Cornfield...may your popcorn never pop Cornfield and your beers all foam over...better yet no foam, just flat...


I'm surprised I haven't gotten called out for promoting batteries being thrown in the trash. Almost looks like it's a Specialized battery, lol! I got the idea from my old skate days when the skaters were anti-inline skates. Someone made these stickers and you'd see them at skate parks.









Just to clarify; I'm not against you or anyone else enjoying your ebikes where they're allowed. I'm just opposed to allowing them on non-motorized trails.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)




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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> I'm surprised I haven't gotten called out for promoting batteries being thrown in the trash. Almost looks like it's a Specialized battery, lol! I got the idea from my old skate days when the skaters were anti-inline skates. Someone made these stickers and you'd see them at skate parks.
> 
> View attachment 1136592
> 
> ...


Ridin' in your favorite place today...


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Okay, I know I said I was out, but I have to admit, my thinking is evolving on this.

While I'm still overall pretty ambivalent about e-bikes, after reading through a thread about the "scourge" of ATV's and Razors on a motorcycle forum I frequent, it occurred to me that e-bikes might work really well for those guys. They're easy to ride like ATV's, BUT far less destructive to the trails, and might actually re-energize trail access efforts in the OHV community.

It really just makes so much more sense to leave non-motorized, non-motorized, and push these things into the OHV realm were they belong. Aside from getting more people behind the efforts to create more OHV trails (or at least regain some of what's been lost), they'd probably be welcomed with open arms vs. being shunned the way they are in the non-motorized community.

Why aren't e-bike manufacturers marketing these things to the OHV community? Trying to sell them in motorcycle shops? It just makes so much more sense.


.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

rider95 said:


> A e bike is a lot safer for other trail users in that we don't need to carry speed so much and we can stop and start very easily , and I have no need for a 7ft ramp or a high banked wooden wall turn . Too many Mt bikers ride with there head down pumping for fast time and coming down hill there is no need to charge down carrying speed to make a climb back up and a lot of e bikers are old experienced riders are racing days are long behind us we just want to enjoy the trail . I have been trail riding one for 5yrs now and I find myself just loping along its never about going as fast as I can which is about 28mph I get passed by thunder heads all the time to each his own but don't run over the hikers .


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## oikeith (Feb 15, 2017)

BumpityBump said:


> In response.
> 
> Also, why did you not yield to the lady walking her dog? You should have pulled off trail and let her pass.


Simply couldn't stop! It was a narrow, steep wooded singletrack, when I saw her I braked and just skidded on the roots and pine needles right into her. We both apologised and continued on our routes.


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## SuperStang (Nov 19, 2014)

Procter said:


>


Is that video in FF?


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

oikeith said:


> Simply couldn't stop! It was a narrow, steep wooded singletrack, when I saw her I braked and just skidded on the roots and pine needles right into her. We both apologised and continued on our routes.


Ah, got it. Glad you aren't one of "those" riders that thinks they have the right of way no matter what. All's well that ends well.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

This pretty much says it all:



motorcycle guy said:


> The guy hiking in the wilderness thinks the mtn biker is tearing up the land.
> The mtn biker thinks the motorcycle is teraing up the land.
> The moto guy thinks the ATV crowd is tearing up the land.
> The ATV guy thinks the RZR guy is tearing up the land.
> The forest manager thinks all of them are a blight on the land.


I guess we need to add e-bikes between mtn biker and ATV?

.


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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

I wonder if we can get over 500 replies in a thread about "gravel bikes"? That seems to the next big thing in biking after ebikes , of course. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

_CJ said:


> This pretty much says it all:
> 
> I guess we need to add e-bikes between mtn biker and ATV?
> 
> .


FIFY,
*Quote Originally Posted by motorcycle guy*
The guy hiking in the wilderness thinks the mtn biker is tearing up the land.
The mtn biker thinks the motorcycle is teraing up the land.
The moto guy thinks the ATV crowd is tearing up the land.
The ATV guy thinks the RZR guy is tearing up the land.
The forest manager thinks all of them are a blight on his horse trails.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

ravewoofer said:


> I wonder if we can get over 500 replies in a thread about "gravel bikes"? That seems to the next big thing in biking after ebikes , of course.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You'll get no complaints about gravel bikes. I, for one, love mine...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

BumpityBump said:


> FIFY,
> *Quote Originally Posted by motorcycle guy*
> The guy hiking in the wilderness thinks the mtn biker is tearing up the land.
> The mtn biker thinks the motorcycle is teraing up the land.
> ...


Funny thing is, depending on when you catch me, I'm could be on a MTB, moto, ATV or snowmobile. I'm not a 'one thing' guy in the least bit. But I do happen to understand the difference between types of vehicles and their associated access issues, which is something that I think the e-bike brigade for the most part is seriously under-informed.


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## jpzeroday (Jul 27, 2016)

Just over two short years ago I was entering the late phase of middle age as an overweight and out-of-shape late 40-something. I couldn't run 40 yards, let alone keep up with my children-at-play. My body fat % was in the high 20s, my BMI was borderline morbidly obese...I was well on my way to being an unhappy, sedentary drain on my family, our medical care system, and our society. 

I discovered a capacity for change. 

1, 3, 5 mile walks. A similar progression running...then I discovered the thrill, challenge, and adventure of cycling. And finally, when I discovered the joys of Mountain Biking...it blew my mind! But, at even (by then well) above average fitness for my age...just 4 or 5 mile singletrack session a few times a week were out of reach. Singletrack trail riding with any elevation variance for more than a handful of miles requires beyond ordinarily fitness...as a consequence, I was limited to exploring just the edge of our outbacks...and I was not able experience flow nor session tec features in a way to begin to truly develop MTB skills.

I then discovered eMTBs. Mind blowing! Now I could venture on epic 18-25 mile trail riding sessions (150-160 bpm/ave workouts, feeling the burn on long descents, etc.)...And I was able to actually start developing some decent riding skills. As a matter of fact, after not having ridden 10 miles on a MTB in my life as of two years ago, I now average 150+ miles of (often challenging) singletrack a month...and I can send advanced features with reliable regularity (both uphill and down!). The fact that I could get into shape AND learn (in more than a cursory way) a new skill set--well that continues to blow my mind. The PAS eMTB was my enabler.

I live for my family, but I'm obsessed with MTBing. I rode trails in 8 different states last year (my first full year of riding). I have contributed to the health of the biking economy to the tune of over $60k just in gear...more in travel. My entire (larger than average) family is now totally involved in riding on dirt. We own a garage full of bikes...and as a consequence of developing as a rider, I don't always ride E, I also have a dirt jumper I hit the pump tracks with my kids on...and a couple of other 'legacy' bikes. I'm also engaged with our community: I follow all of the great MTB sites day and night; I hit all of the great YouTube channels every day; I skip watching NBA, NFL, etc. to ride, but I follow the UCI and regional DHs and Enduros passionately; and I contribute to the IMBA and have setup my smile.amazon.com account to benefit them, too. Mountain Biking has more than changed my life, it has given me life, and has become my passion. It has become my Family's passion. 

So my question: where does a low power Pedal Assist eBike fall on the continuum of potential impacts on multiuse trails? How does it compare to other users in terms of a) risk to other users as a function of mass & speed; b) trail-wear; and c) environmental impact? 

Where does it fall on the continuum of impact when compared to thesenother users:

hiker
trail runner
xc rider
enduro rider
Ad Hoc Strava Competitor
Shuttled Downhiller
or Horseback Rider? 

Is a PAS eMTB rider at the extreme of impact or risk when compared to current allowed uses? My suspicion is that Strava Competitors, Shuttled DHers, and Horseback Riders own those distinctions.

If we want to apply un-nuanced distinctions in a indiscriminate manner

"its a motorcycle!' 

...well that's a slippery slope. Let's look back--if similar brittle reasoning had been applied in the 80s and 90s, then the Mountain Biker's reasonable request for access to multi-use trails would have been denied. 

"Those Mountain Bikes! They have wheels and gears--they are unnatural...they kick up dust and go fast...they are dangerous and destroy trails, oh my!"

Thankfully we were able to largely win over the Sierra Club and Land Managers with reasonably nuanced arguments...btw, I'm guessing the tone and tenor of this thread mirrors the mountain biker access debate amongst contemporary trail user groups back in the 80s and 90s. 

The low power Pedal Assist eMTB is a reasonable request for access to multiuse trails. It expands access to our beautiful and challenging outbacks to more of our fellow humans without compromising other uses and users. They are not the fastest, the heaviest; they are not the most dangerous to other users; nor are they the heaviest source of wear on the trails-themselves. PAS eMTB do not negatively impact the trails and our environment any more than currently accepted uses. Simple. Objective Facts. 

High amperage throttled eMTB is not a reasonable request for access to multiuse trails because it DOES compromise the reasonable access for other established uses and users. They should stick to the type of trails where they won't be at the extreme of users and uses, either.


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## Awshucks (Apr 14, 2013)

jpzeroday said:


> Just over two short years ago I was entering the late phase of middle age as an overweight and out-of-shape late 40-something. I couldn't run 40 yards, let alone keep up with my children-at-play. My body fat % was in the high 20s, my BMI was borderline morbidly obese...I was well on my way to being an unhappy, sedentary drain on my family, our medical care system, and our society.
> 
> I discovered a capacity for change.
> 
> ...


I found this to be an interesting, level headed contribution to this thread. I hope you're met with respect. And good on you for changing your life.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## MarcusBrody (Apr 1, 2014)

Arebee said:


> This guy modified his mountain bike with an electric motor and is riding local trails that we share with dog walkers, hikers and horses.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZjJRRZrfRo3tFecAxSPAFA
> 
> ...


Do you by chance ride at Hartford Reservoir? It was the site of my first ever mountain bike ride and I remember my friends telling me the story.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

jpzeroday said:


> Just over two short years ago I was entering the late phase of middle age as an overweight and out-of-shape late 40-something. I couldn't run 40 yards, let alone keep up with my children-at-play. My body fat % was in the high 20s, my BMI was borderline morbidly obese...I was well on my way to being an unhappy, sedentary drain on my family, our medical care system, and our society.
> 
> I discovered a capacity for change.
> 
> ...


Yes sir, I am 16 miles further down the trail today with my emtb...enjoying every minute of it and the amazing outdoors touched by the hand of God!


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Jpzeroday, I said this before, I'll address it again. 

Let's say that land managers break down and allow your favorite type of ebike but not the evil high powered ones. Let's say they draw a line at 1000 watts. Great. Now, who enforces that? Enforcement takes money, time, personnel. None of which most land managers have. Ok, we all know that people break rules, because they're special. How long before a certain trail system gets a reputation as lax on enforcement and snowflakes come out of the woodwork with their dongled, enhanced and high powered ebikes? Not long. Now how long before other user groups begin to complain about speeding bikes? Will they be able to differentiate between an ebike and a real bike? Not likely. So guess who gets lumped together in all of the complaints and guess who gets completely banned from the trail system? Cyclists do. All of us. So to get to the heart of the matter, are landowners going to deal with this inevitable hassle or are they just going to say no to any motorized vehicles...ANY motorized vehicles? This is why ebikes are banned. It's basically pretty simple.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

leeboh said:


> I test rode one. A ( kick me now in head a most regrettable choice) Haibike. 500 watt rear hub. 28 mph in 10 pedal strokes on a dirt road. No thanks. Ugggg. Way too heavy to loft over rocks and logs that are everywhere here in New England. Crazy fast. Whatev. Future? Perfect for commuting, 1 less car, cargo e bikes for food, kids, dogs, drunk pedicab passengers. Awesome. Those commutes with ( wait for it) excessive hills or really long distances. Future? Not here in MA, illegal for the most part here on multi use off road trails in state parks. Future? Dim. Very dim. Keep them in Texas, YeeeHaw. Dude.


Lol..thanks for the feedback, you didn't ride the right one...yeeeeehew mountain dew!


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ, you never replied to my post #500. Please read what Silentfoe said right above and what I said in #500.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

These feel good stories are fantastic! And I wish we lived in a world filled with these types of people, but we don't, and that's why we can't have nice things sometimes.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> Oh, good grief. One last attempt.
> 
> I have no doubt riding an ebike would be a lot of fun. Are you a hunter? Why do they have limits on hunting? Is it really going to hurt anything if you go over the limit? No. But what if lots of people have this attitude and go over their limit? Guess what, the sport will eventually be harmed and you and everyone else will no longer be able to go out and enjoy hunting.
> 
> This is a point that you keep ignoring. It seems like you really do not care. If you do whatever you want and you and others' actions lead to the loss of our favorite recreational activity, you'd just say "oh, well, fun while it lasted" and go back to your atvs.


I been riding MANY trails in several states with my emtb since 2013 and have never been sent off a trail and never had anyone complain, so I don't really get too wound up over it chaz...but I have had a LOT of people ride it and try it out...maybe I tend to hang with different folks...

Mark Twain: "Worrying is like paying a debt you don't owe"


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Silentfoe said:


> Jpzeroday, I said this before, I'll address it again.
> 
> Let's say that land managers break down and allow your favorite type of ebike but not the evil high powered ones. Let's say they draw a line at 1000 watts. Great. Now, who enforces that? Enforcement takes money, time, personnel. None of which most land managers have. Ok, we all know that people break rules, because they're special. How long before a certain trail system gets a reputation as lax on enforcement and snowflakes come out of the woodwork with their dongled, enhanced and high powered ebikes? Not long. Now how long before other user groups begin to complain about speeding bikes? Will they be able to differentiate between an ebike and a real bike? Not likely. So guess who gets lumped together in all of the complaints and guess who gets completely banned from the trail system? Cyclists do. All of us. So to get to the heart of the matter, are landowners going to deal with this inevitable hassle or are they just going to say no to any motorized vehicles...ANY motorized vehicles? This is why ebikes are banned. It's basically pretty simple.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yes, this is an all inclusive ban kind of a "blanket coverage ban" for all emtb's...for insurance purposes and to keep the rogue/super charged emtbs off the trails as far as I can see...but I have seen Specialized Levo's on trails and no one even batted an eye...the gents were riding, havng fun and getting a good work out...saw a gent pulling up to ride one when I was departing for home...we were discussing the weight to lift them on/off the racks...he had a sweet ramp set up...while I still have a weak mind and a strong back...


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

If y'all are havin such a good ol' time right now, and it doesn't sound like you're so limited by trail restrictions that you have nowhere to ride, why are you coming after our trails?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> If y'all are havin such a good ol' time right now, and it doesn't sound like you're so limited by trail restrictions that you have nowhere to ride, why are you coming after our trails?


Don't need them Corn, thanks for the offer...we got more than I can ride right here close by...I do like hitting Arizona (early spring) and Colorado (mid summer) once a year, nice change and some great riding for photography purposes...


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes, this is an all inclusive ban kind of a "blanket coverage ban" for all emtb's...for insurance purposes and to keep the rogue/super charged emtbs off the trails as far as I can see...but I have seen Specialized Levo's on trails and no one even batted an eye...the gents were riding, havng fun and getting a good work out...saw a gent pulling up to ride one when I was departing for home...we were discussing the weight to lift them on/off the racks...he had a sweet ramp set up...while I still have a weak mind and a strong back...


Blah blah blah. What? You made zero sense in this ridiculous anecdote.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Silentfoe said:


> Blah blah blah. What? You made zero sense in this ridiculous anecdote.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


C'mon guys! NO ONE is going to dongle their bikes and speed. I mean, met this guy on a 250w bike just TODAY. And _guess what_. He _wasn't speeding_. Rest easy team!


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Silentfoe said:


> Blah blah blah. What? You made zero sense in this ridiculous anecdote.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


No wonder, your in Utah...j/k...happens a lot when land owners start worrying about getting sued in the South, they put up No Trespassing signs just to cover them IF and when someone trespassing gets hurt or else...I.E. there's an old water spring that a LOT of folks take water from, the owners stuck up No Trespassing signs everywhere. Folks still get water there everyday, even years later, but the owners are covered as they have No Trespassing signs up and properly spaced...

Here in the USA, we are our own worst enemy...we sue over everything I.E. Hot Coffee...so I don't blame land owners/managers for covering themselves...

Portland's First Mountain-Bike Park Could Be Crippled by a Court Decision - Willamette Week


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Procter said:


> C'mon guys! NO ONE is going to dongle their bikes and speed. I mean, met this guy on a 250w bike just TODAY. And _guess what_. He _wasn't speeding_. Rest easy team!


Of course some folks are going to dongle their bikes, but how many? 1, 100, 1000? And for riding trails? Don't think so...commuting and wide open MUT's probably, but still not many at all...


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

LTZ470, I have been following this thread and must admit that you have tremendous staying power, are you using an e-assist keyboard?


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

mileslong said:


> LTZ470, I have been following this thread and must admit that you have tremendous staying power, are you using an e-assist keyboard?


Use one of these, it's dongled for 120 words per minute...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Cornfield said:


> If y'all are havin such a good ol' time right now, and it doesn't sound like you're so limited by trail restrictions that you have nowhere to ride, why are you coming after our trails?


Corn, from what he has said and from knowledge of the trails from others in the area, it appears that LTZ is riding trails that motorized vehicles in any form are not allowed on. That's why he keeps saying that no one there complains. I've asked him why he can just ride his atvs on the trails that motorized vehicles are allowed on , which he said are numerous in his area, and leave the non-motorized to the non-motorized vehicles but he has not answered that.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> Of course some folks are going to dongle their bikes, but how many? 1, 100, 1000? And for riding trails? Don't think so...commuting and wide open MUT's probably, but still not many at all...


What about the people who don't even bother to look to see what class their eBike falls into, ignorance is bliss? I was wondering as on endless sphere you spoke about your bike being 350 watts.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

chazpat said:


> Corn, from what he has said and from knowledge of the trails from others in the area, it appears that LTZ is riding trails that motorized vehicles in any form are not allowed on. That's why he keeps saying that no one there complains. I've asked him why he can just ride his atvs on the trails that motorized vehicles are allowed on , which he said are numerous in his area, and leave the non-motorized to the non-motorized vehicles but he has not answered that.


This is why we can't have nice things. And why I will continue to educate myself and stand against allowing ebikes on non-motorized trails. Sure it'll be a bummer for people like jpzeroday, who might have a legit reason for pas, but you gotta draw the line somewhere.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> What about the people who don't even bother to look to see what class their eBike falls into, ignorance is bliss? I was wondering as on endless sphere you spoke about your bike being 350 watts.


Yes, it is I either didn't remember or forgot it was, I assumed it was a Class 1 all the while, but it was from 2013 so probably a different state of mind back then about ebikes...I also had said this back up in this thread...
As far as riding illegally no not now, been riding backroads as it is spring and the photo opportunities are great...like the old barns, unique churches, fields, and farm homes that are always posing on the back roads of texas...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> This is why we can't have nice things. And why I will continue to educate myself and stand against allowing ebikes on non-motorized trails. Sure it'll be a bummer for people like jpzeroday, who might have a legit reason for pas, but you gotta draw the line somewhere.


Don't put yourself out Corn...I assure you, if anyone attempted to ride on motorized trails/areas here on an emtb, he would not only endanger himself, but would become a projectile after being hit by a high hp atv or utv and that is guaranteed...No 1 they couldn't see you very well, No 2 they couldn't hear you...dead meat for sure...like I stated before NEVER had an issue on any single track or trails I have ridden, maybe you guys should try improving your demeanor and personality, that could help when dealing with other folks?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I ride on motorized atv trails all the time, totally safe and fun and completely appropriate for electric bikes.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> I ride on motorized atv trails all the time, totally safe and fun and completely appropriate for electric bikes.


Not the ones around here in North Texas...
Rocky Ridge ATV
Red River ATV

You will get killed for sure...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jpzeroday said:


> ...well that's a slippery slope. Let's look back--if similar brittle reasoning had been applied in the 80s and 90s, then the Mountain Biker's reasonable request for access to multi-use trails would have been denied.
> 
> "Those Mountain Bikes! They have wheels and gears--they are unnatural...they kick up dust and go fast...they are dangerous and destroy trails, oh my!"
> 
> Thankfully we were able to largely win over the Sierra Club and Land Managers with reasonably nuanced arguments...


Yes, the argument against allowing mountain bikes on hiking trails was that it was a slippery slope, and our reasonably nuanced argument was that it was human powered just like hiking and therefore would always be limited by human strength and skill.

Turns out the Sierra club was right about the slippery slope.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

What does demeanor and personality have to do with access issues? I think I've been pretty calm and collected and have not resorted to name calling like some of us have. You're obviously living in a fantasy world where people look the other way while you continue to poach trails. 

You seem to think this is all about you and your little bubble. As long as you can ride, screw everyone else, huh?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Not the ones around here in North Texas...
> Rocky Ridge ATV
> Red River ATV
> 
> You will get killed for sure...


Injured or seriously killed for sure..........


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> What does demeanor and personality have to do with access issues? I think I've been pretty calm and collected and have not resorted to name calling like some of us have. You're obviously living in a fantasy world where people look the other way while you continue to poach trails.
> 
> You seem to think this is all about you and your little bubble. As long as you can ride, screw everyone else, huh?


No Sir, not my intentions at all...it's your world, I'm just passing thru....


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> No Sir, not my intentions at all...it's your world, I'm just passing thru....


Cool bro......

So what are your thoughts on ebikes at places like South Mountain AZ?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Injured or seriously killed for sure..........


or even worse..


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Cornfield said:


> Cool bro......
> 
> So what are your thoughts on ebikes at places like South Mountain AZ?


Don't know never rode it, what is the max speed they allow? I have rode McDowell Mountain and Scottsdale trails and they were not crowded at all and the only fast run we did was a 7 mile downhill grade, can't remember the trail, but what a hoot me on emtb and a buddy on a standard mtb...we absolutely had a blast for a week out there...I remember hitting 25 mph on that down hill run...which is FAST for me!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> I have rode McDowell Mountain and Scottsdale trails and they were not crowded at all and the only fast run we did was a 7 mile downhill grade, can't remember the trail, but what a hoot me on emtb and a buddy on a standard mtb...we absolutely had a blast for a week out there...I remember hitting 25 mph on that down hill run...which is FAST for me!


I thought we only rode on twisty tree lined trails?

May your batteries explode and cast a cheerful glow in the desert sky.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Don't know never rode it, what is the max speed they allow? I have rode McDowell Mountain and Scottsdale trails and they were not crowded at all and the only fast run we did was a 7 mile downhill grade, can't remember the trail, but what a hoot me on emtb and a buddy on a standard mtb...we absolutely had a blast for a week out there...I remember hitting 25 mph on that down hill run...which is FAST for me!


Do you think ebikes should be allowed there, yes or no?


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> No wonder, your in Utah...j/k...happens a lot when land owners start worrying about getting sued in the South, they put up No Trespassing signs just to cover them IF and when someone trespassing gets hurt or else...I.E. there's an old water spring that a LOT of folks take water from, the owners stuck up No Trespassing signs everywhere. Folks still get water there everyday, even years later, but the owners are covered as they have No Trespassing signs up and properly spaced...
> 
> Here in the USA, we are our own worst enemy...we sue over everything I.E. Hot Coffee...so I don't blame land owners/managers for covering themselves...
> 
> Portland's First Mountain-Bike Park Could Be Crippled by a Court Decision - Willamette Week


Who was talking about getting sued? That is not the reason they are banned. Quick lesson for you...in the West, most of the open land is public, ie blm, forest service. They don't really care about being sued at all. Oh, and they have a hard ban on ebikes. Utah has more public lands than any other state. When it comes to private land, most states, Utah included, have a law on the books that protects them from lawsuits by people who are injured on their land, as long as they aren't charging for access.

Sorry to have killed off that red herring for you. What's your next excuse?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Arebee (Sep 13, 2012)

MarcusBrody said:


> Do you by chance ride at Hartford Reservoir? It was the site of my first ever mountain bike ride and I remember my friends telling me the story.


Yes, I do, and I learned to ride there as well!

It's not the most challenging place to ride, but it's close to home and works really well for after work rides. I still have a soft spot in my heart for the Rez, but it's no longer my primary riding spot. Over the last year, the MDC has started to shut down more sections to bikes. It will be this jackass in the video that will get all MTBs banned from the place, even though MTBers are the most considerate of all users.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Lol..thanks for the feedback, you didn't ride the right one...yeeeeehew mountain dew!


 I'm only old, not fat or lazy. Plus they for the most part are illegal. The right one? it might be for commuting sometime. Not for off road.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> No wonder, your in Utah...j/k...happens a lot when land owners start worrying about getting sued in the South, they put up No Trespassing signs just to cover them IF and when someone trespassing gets hurt or else...I.E. there's an old water spring that a LOT of folks take water from, the owners stuck up No Trespassing signs everywhere. Folks still get water there everyday, even years later, but the owners are covered as they have No Trespassing signs up and properly spaced...
> 
> Here in the USA, we are our own worst enemy...we sue over everything I.E. Hot Coffee...so I don't blame land owners/managers for covering themselves...
> 
> Portland's First Mountain-Bike Park Could Be Crippled by a Court Decision - Willamette Week


What? You think that land managers put up signs just to cover themselves if they get sued and not to manage behavior? "Go ahead and trespass, the signs just there for the lawyers" wink wink nudge nudge

That's delusional


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> I ride on motorized atv trails all the time, totally safe and fun and completely appropriate for electric bikes.


Yep, same here, except it's only motos, not quads or side by sides allowed.


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## jimbowho (Dec 16, 2009)

LTZ, you are delusional or in denial or don't care if you believe that electric mountain bikes will not anger other users of many multiple use riding areas.

I want one, I think they are awesome. For me night riding in my remote areas would not irritate anything but wildlife.

Areas that are on the fence already about mountain bikes will most definitely be on red flag status once Electric bikes are zipping around.

Real true Mountain Bicycles are already on eggshells in many places.


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## jpzeroday (Jul 27, 2016)

Cornfield said:


> If y'all are havin such a good ol' time right now, and it doesn't sound like you're so limited by trail restrictions that you have nowhere to ride, why are you coming after our trails?


I guess this points to a real significant issue in this rant:

They are NOT your trails.

They are OUR trails.

And I guess there is another simple distinction--"multi-use" trails mean exactly that...that there are more than one approved use for these trails. And there is a presumption that new and compatible uses are considered for approval from time to time.

I'm sorry, but I find that this rant essentially distills down to petty xenophobia.

Another red herring is the argument that by approving PAS eMTB, that we are opening the doors for any motorized bike at some point to gain access to these trails. Another ridiculous assertion. Will mx bikes ever be approved for pedestrian multi-use trails? Not likely. If a class of eMTB has similar characteristics in terms of weight and power, will that class be approved? Not likely.

By the way, are unapproved users still using these trails illegally? Yes. Even now? Yes? How does approving a new use some how engender more illegal use? Do we fail to approve reasonable uses just because another unapproved user might try to use these same trails. The reasoning here is weak.

Fundamentally a core argument being forwarded here is that NO bike with a motor of any type falls within the characteristics of appropriate use for a multi-use trail. My assertion: there is NO reasonable support for that argument. Please see the last two paragraphs of my long post above for a discussion of where Low Power PAS fall on the continuum of currently approved multi-use trail uses. There is no argument that they are at the extreme of weight, speed, trail impact, or ecological impact when compared in particular to the currently approved uses/users that do represent the current extremes: Strava Competitors that regularly reshape trails, Downhillers that smash trails the fastest and often are using petrol fired vehicles for shuttling, and Horses and Riders which are massive. ...And I'm not debating wether those are appropriate uses. They are! A low power PAS eMTB is nicely compatible with all current, typically approved uses.

The bike manufacturers have proven that they can reliably produce eMTB that have compatible multiuser trail characteristics...less than 750W and an 18mph cutoff (the most popular--Bosch, Yamaha, and Shimano are actually 250-500W which equates to 0.33 to 0.66 horse power...just so you are reading this right, that equates to a fraction of ONE horsepower...).


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

jpzeroday said:


> I guess this points to a real significant issue in this rant:
> 
> They are NOT your trails.
> 
> ...


Did you read my post in response to your previous diatribe? It addresses this. You cannot allow one type without getting all types without some kind of enforcement, which doesn't and won't exist.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

jpzeroday said:


> Do we fail to approve reasonable uses just because another unapproved user might try to use these same trails. The reasoning here is weak.


Actually yes, all of the time. Quads and side x sides excluded from motorized trails is one example. Mountain Bikes get excluded from trails all the time, look around.


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## jpzeroday (Jul 27, 2016)

Silentfoe said:


> Did you read my post in response to your previous diatribe? It addresses this. You cannot allow one type without getting all types without some kind of enforcement, which doesn't and won't exist.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I did and I find your argument weak. FACT: enforcement is an issue NOW, with currently approved USES. A) How does approving new USES change that in any practical manner? B) And is it fundamentally right to discriminate based upon the perceived (not actual) enforcement challenge?

There will ALWAYS be unapproved users that hit the trails unknowingly and knowingly.

Discrimination based upon enforcement bias, rather than compatibility analysis--is a proposed tool for inappropriate exclusion of rightful users from resources that we all own together.


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## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

Crankout said:


> Quick brief rant and I will be on my way.
> 
> I was out for a nice tempo-paced ride the other day, and as I glanced behind me I see a cyclist gaining ground quickly. As he gets closer, I realize this isn't someone who could gain ground that quickly. As he whizzes, by, I wasn't surprised to see the stupid e-bike boastfully go by me.
> 
> ...


I was hiking the other day and this A-hole passed me by on a MTB. That is such BS that he was going faster than me and cheating not using his own 2 legs but using a bike. Fugg all those bikes on MY trails.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Bmiller71 said:


> I was hiking the other day and this A-hole passed me by on a MTB. That is such BS that he was going faster than me and cheating not using his own 2 legs but using a bike. Fugg all those bikes on MY trails.


Not the first time that argument has been used, it's a Lame Duck, Straw Man whatever nomenclature you wish to apply. Mountain Bikers have been and will be excluded from trails because of the speed differentials of bikes and hikers and now some of you wish to add motors to the mix. You can spew all the lame rhetoric you wish, "not faster, not faster uphill, no one will mod them" etc. etc. It doesn't hold water.


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## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Not the first time that argument has been used, it's a Lame Duck, Straw Man whatever nomenclature you wish to apply. Mountain Bikers have been and will be excluded from trails because of the speed differentials of bikes and hikers and now some of you wish to add motors to the mix. You can spew all the lame rhetoric you wish, "not faster, not faster uphill, no one will mod them" etc. etc. It doesn't hold water.


Read the OP again - he was pissed someone went by him while he was on his tempo ride. I have been passed on mine by a MTB going downhill, so what's the difference.

Saying people will mod so they can't be around is no different than saying people will poach illegal trails on a regular MTB so don't allow any bikes.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Bmiller71 said:


> I was hiking the other day and this A-hole passed me by on a MTB. That is such BS that he was going faster than me and cheating not using his own 2 legs but using a bike. Fugg all those bikes on MY trails.


Lots of trails where mountain bikes aren't allowed but I never get the urge to go on hiking forums and complain.

You're right, they are our trails. Presumably everyone get a say in the matter and the best route would probably be to contact your local representative.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Bmiller71 said:


> Read the OP again - he was pissed someone went by him while he was on his tempo ride. I have been passed on mine by a MTB going downhill, so what's the difference.
> 
> Saying people will mod so they can't be around is no different than saying people will poach illegal trails on a regular MTB so don't allow any bikes.


Again with the Straw Man arguments. 12 pages in and you think you have something new, something that has not been disputed, dispelled and discarded already? You guys need a new shtick because this one is used up.


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## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Again with the Straw Man arguments. 12 pages in and you think you have something new, something that has not been disputed, dispelled and discarded already? You guys need a new shtick because this one is used up.


As opposed to your insightful input of "burn them all". Sorry I don't spend everyday on here waiting for someone to post about an ebike so I can say the same thing every time like you do. Do you think your points have not been disputed over and over again? I get there are 2 sides to it, you do not. Again my response was to the OP complaining someone went by him...what's your point


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

jpzeroday said:


> I guess this points to a real significant issue in this rant:
> 
> They are NOT your trails.
> 
> ...


Several of the trail networks I ride are designated mountain bike trails. Hikers are allowed on most of them (there are a few more downhill/jump type trails that would not be safe for hikers) but it is posted that mountain bikes have the right of way. The trails were built and are maintained by mountain bike groups. The county strongly supports the mountain bikers. Show up on your eBike and tell people you can ride them because "they are our trails" and see how that goes over for you.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

jpzeroday said:


> I guess this points to a real significant issue in this rant:
> 
> They are NOT your trails.
> 
> ...


 Yikes, where to start. Bikes don't have motors. Yes, our trails. Here in MA, the laws that govern us, state " No Motor Vehicles Allowed" So there's that. Power levels? 250, 750, 2,500 watts? How to tell by looking? you can't. Fake stickers, aftermarket mods and controller overrides all already in use. Once that door opens, no closing it. PAS e bikes are great, let them ride where the other motos ride. You welcome.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Yes sir done all the time...gives the land get out of jail free card and eliminates them getting sued...if you or anyone else gets hurt on their land I.E. gored by a bull...falling into an old well or dipping vat, etc......


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Don't worry you can have Maine


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jpzeroday said:


> I guess this points to a real significant issue in this rant:
> 
> They are NOT your trails.
> 
> ...


I agree completely.

The process of consideration, though, is something that it seems most e-bikers and the e-bike 'industry' think they should be just allowed to completely skip, instead relying on pushing a false equivocation with traditional mountain bikes, which ends up saddling mountain bikers with all of their access issues and struggles, past, present and future.

I have no problems with e-bikes as long as e-bikers take care of their own access issues and leave mountain bikers out of it. I feel this is a completely fair approach, yet a number e-bikers here have labelled me a 'hater' for espousing it. I think there's definitely a quite a lot of entitled attitudes on display when it comes to the e-bike scene and people demanding that everyone pretend adding a motor isn't a fundamental shift away from one of the core defining attributes that make a mountain bike a mountain bike, and that is that they are strictly human powered conveyances.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

LTZ470 said:


> Don't worry you can have Maine


MA stands for Massachusetts... don't you have an e-spell checker?

And for the record, no body wants any a$$hats from Texas coming anywhere near our trials riding an e-bike.

"Only two things come from Texas; steers and queers and I don't see no horns."- Sgt.Emil Foley


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mileslong said:


> MA stands for Massachusetts... don't you have an e-spell checker?
> 
> And for the record, no body wants any a$$hats from Texas coming anywhere near our trials riding an e-bike.
> 
> Only two things come from Texas; steers and queers and I don't see no horns.


Really? You've crossed over one of the admittedly poorly defined lines here. Edit yours and I'll edit mine, mmmkay?


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Dammit mileslong you diminished your argument. Although in the context of full metal jacket the steers and queers quote is pretty funny in the movie.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Was that Full Metal Jacket, or Officer and a Gentleman? ...or both?


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Full Metal Jacket for sure. I don't think I ever saw An Officer and a Gentleman.:lol:


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

As I was catching up with this "thread" my buddy just sent me this: Pretty strong, plus 2 front wheels?

2000-watt electric motor (I couldn't find the actual video he sent me but that figure is from there)


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## gdb85 (Mar 4, 2017)

Uhm...maybe a closet Richard Gere fan?? lol, Definitely a quote from Officer and a Gentleman. Lou Gosset talking to a fella from Oaklahoma.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Don't worry you can have Maine


 MA is short for Massachusetts. ME is Maine. Funny thing is, ME is so wide open in the northern 1/2, forests, trails, dirt roads everywhere. People just kind of do what they want within reason. MA on the other hand is so crowded, trail access issues, too many folks such few spaces, at least in the eastern part.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

An Officer and a Gentleman...6 points to anyone who picked up the reference.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Texas = Full Metal Jacket

Oklahoma = Officer and a Gentleman

I knew it was familiar from both movies.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled argument.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Well son of a gun, that's interesting.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

mileslong said:


> An Officer and a Gentleman...6 points to anyone who picked up the reference.


I think I should get 8 pts for getting the steers and queers + Texas reference right.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

jpzeroday said:


> I did and I find your argument weak. FACT: enforcement is an issue NOW, with currently approved USES. A) How does approving new USES change that in any practical manner? B) And is it fundamentally right to discriminate based upon the perceived (not actual) enforcement challenge?
> 
> There will ALWAYS be unapproved users that hit the trails unknowingly and knowingly.
> 
> Discrimination based upon enforcement bias, rather than compatibility analysis--is a proposed tool for inappropriate exclusion of rightful users from resources that we all own together.


The argument is not weak. It is THE issue. Let me be clear, I work for the BLM. Your first fact is correct and succinctly sums it up. Enforcement is an issue. Why would any land managers want to add another user that requires strict enforcement? You keep using discrimination and xenophobia. Nice try equating ebike access to some social issue of our time. I can't take my mtb in the wilderness. I don't call it discrimination, I call it poor policy. There are ways to fight for more mtb access. Your motor driven bike does not get to piggyback on our efforts.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## XRayPunk (Apr 5, 2010)

My favorite e-bike meme

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Mookie said:


> I think I should get 8 pts for getting the steers and queers + Texas reference right.


You had the wrong movie....the consolation prize is 8 emtb points that can be redeemed anywhere ebikes are legal to ride!


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Not the ones around here in North Texas...
> Rocky Ridge ATV
> Red River ATV
> 
> You will get killed for sure...


Ok. Well if you feel that's the case then it's fine for you to ride your motorized bike on non-motorized trails.

The bottom line is that no matter your sob story, you can put your nifty little toy away and ride a standard MTB if you so choose. Especially in North Texas. All it takes is a granny ring. You're all set. Rest as needed. I've been there.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mileslong said:


> You had the wrong movie....the consolation prize is 8 emtb points that can be redeemed anywhere ebikes are legal to ride!


The winner? Texas.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Cornfield said:


> If y'all are havin such a good ol' time right now, and it doesn't sound like you're so limited by trail restrictions that you have nowhere to ride, *why are you coming after our trails?*





jpzeroday said:


> I guess this points to a real significant issue in this rant:
> 
> They are NOT your trails.
> 
> They are OUR trails.


He's not saying that. Cornfield's 'our' includes you. Ebike opponents here are trying to protect ALL OUR CONTINUED ACCESS . . . . so that *you, him, everyone can continue to ride trails on a regular bike. *


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> The winner? Texas.


I stand corrected... different versions but the point is clear...Mookie gets the points!


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Procter said:


> He's not saying that. Cornfield's 'our' includes you. Ebike opponents here are trying to protect ALL OUR CONTINUED ACCESS . . . . so that *you, him, everyone can continue to ride trails on a regular bike. *


While I do think ebikes qualify as a new user group, I can see valid points for acceptance/restriction from each side. We're in a grey area right now as to where to draw the line and I think things will become more clear as time goes on. I still haven't even seen one ebike in my area yet, which isn't saying much as there just aren't that many mtb trails where I live. We should all keep an open mind and asses the situations on a local level. What's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander. I don't think 'blanket bans' or accepting bikes with motors/PAS as 'bikes' is good for any of us. LTZ is probably right that ebikes are coming weather we like it or not, but it is on us to get involved and voice or opinions.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

mileslong said:


> I stand corrected... different versions but the point is clear...Mookie gets the points!


Thanks! I really needed the points to pass this class. Summer break here I come!


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

mileslong said:


> MA stands for Massachusetts... don't you have an e-spell checker?
> 
> And for the record, no body wants any a$$hats from Texas coming anywhere near our trials riding an e-bike.
> 
> "Only two things come from Texas; steers and queers and I don't see no horns."- Sgt.Emil Foley


That's probably a big part of the difference in opinion here. I imagine in Tex-ass there is plenty of space, plenty of trails, and those trails are probably not very crowded or well used. Therefore I imagine those trails probably require little maintenance.

Here in MA I regularly ride trails located within 25 miles of Boston. At Blue Hills State Park, for example, if I don't ride early AM or during work hours on weekdays I would run into dozens and dozens of hikers on the multi-use trails. Even if I go a bit farther afield, to Wompatuck for example, I still regularly see lots of other riders and hikers on weekends. As a result, the trails require constant maintenance just from foot and MTB traffic. I can't imagine what it would be like to add emonsters to the equation.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

mileslong said:


> MA stands for Massachusetts... don't you have an e-spell checker?
> 
> And for the record, no body wants any a$$hats from Texas coming anywhere near our trials riding an e-bike.
> 
> "Only two things come from Texas; steers and queers and I don't see no horns."- Sgt.Emil Foley


Massachusetts...Maine...they are the same aren't they? Kinda like Dutch and German...basically the same...Massachusetts is like one bike trail in Texas, no wonder you don't allow emtb's...how many mtbs do you all have in the whole state...two?


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

This thread needs puppies!


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> Massachusetts...Maine...they are the same aren't they? Kinda like Dutch and German...basically the same...Massachusetts is like one bike trail in Texas, no wonder you don't allow emtb's...how many mtbs do you all have in the whole state...two?
> View attachment 1136870


Quality over quantity. Lost on Texans, I know.
More chicken fried with that e-bike?

Yeah, I know what I said, but hard to stop fighting stupid.

(key irrelevant retort about not understanding wattage blah blah blah here)


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

I'm thinking that Mass. probably has more single track than the entire state of Texas. And the best part? No emotorbikes on non-motorized trails.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> I'm thinking that Mass. probably has more single track than the entire state of Texas. And the best part? No emotorbikes on non-motorized trails.


I don't think LTZ470 understands single track.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> Massachusetts...Maine...they are the same aren't they? Kinda like Dutch and German...basically the same...Massachusetts is like one bike trail in Texas, no wonder you don't allow emtb's...how many mtbs do you all have in the whole state...two?
> View attachment 1136870


I live in Mass too but that right there's funny.



Lived in TX when I was a little AF brat, and been back for work a number of times. There's a lot of room to have fun and people are pretty friendly. With that amount of space, I can't see any reason e-bikers wouldn't be able to create a 'scene' for themselves.

I've got a MTBing dad in his 70s and a 12 y/o kid with a love for throttles and mad DH/BMX/Moto skills. E-bike would be the perfect machine to turn my rides into 3 generation affairs; hell, at a some point, I may well be an active proponent. But I would never do it in any way that would put true MTB access at risk. The work that folks have put in needs to be respected.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Quality is having trails to ride alone for miles...keep on dreaming..."stupid is as stupid does"....


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

LTZ470 said:


> Massachusetts...Maine...they are the same aren't they? Kinda like Dutch and German...basically the same...
> View attachment 1136870


Texas....Mexico...basically the same. Kinda like dumb and dumber.....


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

BumpityBump said:


> I don't think LTZ470 understands single track.


He sure does, he's got a singletrack mind.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

LTZ470 said:


> Quality is having trails to ride alone for miles...keep on dreaming..."stupid is as stupid does"....


If your idea of quality is miles and miles of dusty dirt then you definitely wouldn't like New England singletrack...you would get exhausted pushing your battery pack up the technical climbs that are the essence of real mountain bike riding. Don't forget your charger....


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## Tripower (Jan 4, 2011)

It will not be long before the ebike community demands charging stations be built along the trails!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Tripower said:


> It will not be long before the ebike community demands charging stations be built along the trails!


They'll be located in front of the trailside Starbucks.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

I think that could work. With a captive audience waiting for their bikes to charge, there is money to be made. The plot of land could be donated to Starbucks in exchange for trail sanitization services.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> Quality is having trails to ride alone for miles...keep on dreaming..."stupid is as stupid does"....


Miles? Big deal. Ride real single track for days and get back to us. Oh, that's right, you can't ride your moped on legal single track in most places thank dawg. Dream on Opie.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> Quality is having trails to ride alone for miles...keep on dreaming..."stupid is as stupid does"....


I've got that, singletrack starts 50' from my front door and more trail than I can ride in every direction. Real singletrack, not some lame sidewalk looking crap either.

Thing about MA is we have many many parcels of woods and likely more trail builders in our little state than the whole of TX out there building more and better all the time. Can't count the number of places to ride purpose-built MTB trails within a few hours drive. Hell, even got ~10 lift served systems in the area. Not only quality, but quantity and variety too.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Massachusetts...Maine...they are the same aren't they? Kinda like Dutch and German...basically the same...Massachusetts is like one bike trail in Texas, no wonder you don't allow emtb's...how many mtbs do you all have in the whole state...two?
> View attachment 1136870


 Couple of more than 2 . Nemba has over 6,000 members and puts in thousands of trail work hours with the 30 chapters all over New England. Plus VT as well. Add a booming High School racing scene as well. So much great riding al over, no motors allowed. There are like 6 or so places in the state where they are welcome. We'll keep the sweet singletrack and trees, you can keep the heat, sand and cactus. Cheers.


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## bmf032 (Sep 8, 2010)

."- Sgt.Emil Foley
GYSGT Hartman played by GYSGT R. Lee Ermey. Carry on.


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## bmf032 (Sep 8, 2010)

xraypunk said:


> my favorite e-bike meme
> View attachment 1136829


winner!


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