# Cash is King at King



## Lutarious (Feb 8, 2005)

I bought a headset on the board, from a guy who should be very reliable and trustworthy. It came packaged in the original bag, still stapled shut, so I have no reason to believe that he ever opened the bag, so we can assume the it came from King with missing parts. Specifically, the top race, or whatever they call that part that sits between the top bearing cup and the stem.

I called King to see if they would send me one, and I was willing to pay, but felt like they might throw me one free, since it's a small part, and the headsets go for like 125 now. (I currently have five King headsets in my stable, and couple spares.)

Don't count on it! They charged me $16.00 and change for hte part, and not only that, but the "shipping and handling" was over $6.00. Hoping for some consideration, I also asked them to throw me a scuff washer- the little plastic thing. $2 dollars more!

I appreciate the quality of their stuff, but I am done with the greedy **** that some of these companies throw out. Customer service is what separates the good deals from the bad, no matter how good the product, and there are plenty of other companies out there who will give a customer the benefit of the doubt, or at least not bend him over the desk when he neeeds a little something.

I'm done with King.


----------



## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Well, for the record, you were NOT a "King" customer in this transaction. You bought the part 2nd hand. Maybe the guy didn't open it, maybe he did. You have no way of knowing... King has no way of knowing. 

Now,if you bought the piece directly from them, or from a Kind dealer, I bet you'd have had the race and scuff washer shipped gratis. Completely gratis... no shipping or anything.

They don't know you from Jack... you call and say you bought this headset from some guy (or did you lie and say you got it new?) but it's missing parts. Can you send me the replacements for free? I mean, I know you're in business to make some money, but really, I'm a good guy and I bought this stuff cheaply - not from you - so you owe me the rest of the parts that didn't come with it when I bought it secondhand.

Uhhhhhhh, huh?? You're off base on this one. They did absolutely nothing wrong in this case.


----------



## Master Shake (Mar 6, 2005)

This is a pretty common thing it seems. Yeah, they make a great little pair of milled aluminum cups to stick cartridge bearings & a retaining ring in, but holy crap they could really get over themselves already. Price out what it'd cost to make that headset in any quantity and you have around a $15 part. Add to that there's no cost of product liability insurance, cause it's not a high risk part, and you have about the most profitable part ont he bike. Not that it's not a nice part, but no different than anything else these days, cheap to make, with lots of margin. Fluff. Great.

Mavic, WTB & Stronglight, among others, made better headsets once upon a time, when Mavic made gruppos, WTB was a capable company with Steve Potts & Charlie Cunningham, & Stonglight thought there was an American market.

The elitism from a company that essentially makes little aluminum (cheap) turnings (the easiest kind of work there is) is totally unwarranted. Ask anyone here in Germany how they like King. Shops get their parts mailed over from the US because King is so arrogant it's actually offensive to deal with them. Instead, they pay American retail, and provide them at zero profit solely to keep customers happy.


----------



## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Hey I just bought a component , not from a dealer / retailer , & need a few parts. Why don't you just give them to me because your a big company that in my guesstimation makes a lot of money on small peices of aluminum. "I have to pay! " I thought you would help somone out even though I bought it second hand for a better price. Why would I question the person I bought it from - If every company had to deal w/ freebee's & messy stories they would go bankrupt.


----------



## Master Shake (Mar 6, 2005)

keen said:


> Hey I just bought a component , not from a dealer / retailer , & need a few parts. Why don't you just give them to me because your a big company that in my guesstimation makes a lot of money on small peices of aluminum. "I have to pay! " I thought you would help somone out even though I bought it second hand for a better price. Why would I question the person I bought it from - If every company had to deal w/ freebee's & messy stories they would go bankrupt.


 Freakin deja vu man.


----------



## donkey (Jan 14, 2004)

One point of consideration: I have worked in bike shops for a total of roughly 6 years and I have never seen a king headset show up in a stapled bag. I have always seen them with the excess bag stuffed tightly through the bottom of the headset keeping everythin nice and tight.

You may have gotten taken by the seller on this one.

B


----------



## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*I think it may be that..*

It cost them MORE to manufacture and inventory individual small parts versus manufacturering and inventoring small parts parts that cumlumatively make a headset.

So CK is transferring this additional cost to you via high prices...


----------



## Juliius (Apr 30, 2004)

does this make the 4th or 5th time you've posted this mess on this board? People that own King stuff are not going to be persuaded by your argument - I'll give you your $20 if you just quick spamming the board ... sheesh!


----------



## Jessep (Dec 1, 2004)

Did you ever read the article about the King factory? Their commitment to the environment makes them top in my book, no matter what else they do. Some of the trouble they go through to avoid destroying the planet add to the total cost of manufacture also. Of all the companies one could badmouth, I don't think king should ever be one.


----------



## Lutarious (Feb 8, 2005)

*I'll take your $20.00*

Put your money where your mouth is. I wasn't asking for money, I was noting a certain attitude about the customer service at CK.

PM me your email, and I will send a Paypal invoice.


----------



## jl (Feb 23, 2004)

Ludicrous,

Is there a forum that you didn't post in.  I bet the responses are all pretty much the same. 

How about just using the ReCycle Bin next time?


----------



## Evel Knievel (Mar 28, 2004)

To sell King products is a dificult process for shops. The are certain standards with which King will judge a shops worthiness to sell thier products. Certainly a few enemies were made amoungst those that were rejected. 

King does not sell direct to consumers. Always buy King parts from a licensed dealer. This will insure that the customer service is top notch like the products. 

I also back the statement of the headsets come in a bag that is stuffed in from the bottom of the headset. Leaving the top clear and visible. You may have been had by the seller. Doubtful that both the factory and the original seller (licensed dealer) missed the fact that it was incomplete. If purchased from a REAL dealer most likely the missing parts would be replaced without charge . 

Green factory , made in America , completely serviceable parts , rebuild kits and spare parts for thier entire product line since inception , these are the reason I will pay to much for King stuff.


----------



## lawhoo (Feb 27, 2004)

Why do you feel like King owes you free parts? You bought outside of the normal channel and thus assume the risk for missing parts. King is running a business, not a bike charity. When did it become unfashionable for businesses to make money? Profitability is not a proxy for greed. 

King has to pay for payroll, capital machine investments, liability insurance, and green facilities. To boot, they have to compete with lower priced foreign parts. The prices you quoted, even with shipping, seem quite reasonable to me.


----------



## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*I own CK stuff AND ill take your $20.00*



Juliius said:


> does this make the 4th or 5th time you've posted this mess on this board? People that own King stuff are not going to be persuaded by your argument - I'll give you your $20 if you just quick spamming the board ... sheesh!


Im going riding..


----------



## Yeti_Rider (Dec 26, 2003)

*indivdual spare parts*

always cost a lot. if you paid retail for each part necessary to make a larger part, you'd be paying at least twice what the finished product would cost.

it's not just the cost of the tiny little part that you have to consider, they have to pay the overhead for each and every person in the chain who sent it directly to you. if you had to get the part through retail channels, you would have paid even more so quit yer *****en.

YR


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

Ok here's a counterpoint to your story. About twelve years ago I had a King headset and I was one of the few people who have had bad King bearings (long story; don't ask). I phoned King and explained. They told me to ship back the headset and they would replace the bearings. I explained that I had a few races coming up and to be without a headset for a couple of weeks (I'm in Canada) would be very inconvenient. "No problem" was the reply. "We'll send you new cups with bearings installed. Just ship back the old cups when you get the new ones."

Beat that for service. It's a King HS or nothing for me.


----------



## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> Beat that for service.


Well, since you're asking. 

I broke my '03 Banshee on a Friday, e-mailed them a pic of the crack, and had a new '04 on Thursday. Beat THAT for customer service.


----------



## Monte (Dec 20, 2003)

Lutarious said:


> I bought a headset on the board, from a guy who should be very reliable and trustworthy.


Hmmm, are you as willing to publicly bash this guy as you are King?

Monte


----------



## Wasatch Walt (Jan 12, 2004)

Lutarious said:


> Don't count on it! They charged me $16.00 and change for hte part, and not only that, but the "shipping and handling" was over $6.00. Hoping for some consideration, I also asked them to throw me a scuff washer- the little plastic thing. $2 dollars more!
> 
> I'm done with King.


Just my opinion, but $16 seems small to me for even having access to a small part. What is that, like two dinners at McDonalds?

Have you ever tried to get small parts from Shimano? You are just told to buy the whole thing.

Also, the guy you bought the HS from is CLEARLY responsible for having a complete unit.

I've had excellent CS for ten years from King. Chris himself faced my head tube and bb shell on my Ti hardtail for free. (race support). They once did an overhaul on my rear hub for nothing. They have answered all my support questions with great precision. They helped me convert my King Classic Hubs to disc which saved me some nice cheese slices. They use their own designed and manufactured bearings. Far higher quality than anything you can buy off of the shelf. I have ten YEARS of extreme abuse on a set of CK hubs. I have never, ever, seen a CK HS fail or not maintain perfect adjustment. I never clean the things, I don't do anything, yet they are always perfect. Before CK, I used to go through HSs constantly. I have never seen a DROP of water inside a CK hub, even after running them through creeks for hours. Nothing matches their seal system, nothing.

I don't agree w/ your opinion, as you might be able to tell.


----------



## Brown_Teeth (Jan 15, 2004)

Seems ever since King left CA its become MORE expensive for consumers but cheaper for them? What ever happened to the good old Cali days, ride be happy and not to greedy oh well... everything changes and mostly NOT for the better as per consumer side, ever price gasoline lately


----------



## Boon Fly (Mar 3, 2004)

*It's not necessarily cheaper...*



Brown_Teeth said:


> Seems ever since King left CA its become MORE expensive for consumers but cheaper for them? What ever happened to the good old Cali days, ride be happy and not to greedy oh well... everything changes and mostly NOT for the better as per consumer side, ever price gasoline lately


..now that they're in Portland. I mean I see your point but the reality is that there are so many other factors to consider. Presumably, in Oregon they can better afford to pay their hard working staff, they don't get gouged with with some of the riculously high California state business taxes but there is inflation, increased fuel costs and on and on and on. I think a better way of looking at it is that prices haven't increased any more than they might have. It's only fair for prices to increase anyway as time goes on ( and demand is steady or increasing) and inflation sets in but who knows how much higher the prices might be had they stayed in California? Just a thought-


----------



## Master Shake (Mar 6, 2005)

Wasatch Walt said:


> ...They use their own designed and manufactured bearings. Far higher quality than anything you can buy off of the shelf...


 I used to hear this a lot from cyclists. Much like the Navy trying to get Treks miraculous carbon composite technology, this is a myth. Anyone who has ever had to spec bearings for anything knows there are some truly amazing bearings out there. You think those king bearings are nice? They're fine. The reality is, they could be abec-5 grade or abec-7, and no one would ever know the difference in a headset (or hub), but an abec-7 would cost a hell of a lot (25-50%) more. If you want to replace your bearings with really nice off-the-shelf units, you could spend up a few hundred bucks or a grand on replacement bearings that are so well done they require a hundred hours of run-in to align properly. But you'd never notice the difference, because the differences only comes into play at high rpms, temps or loads, and bicycle headsets & hubs endure none of these. Any decreased drag is lost in all the necessary seals. What they do endure is contaminates, which ruin thousand dollar ceramic bearings as fast as they ruin $5 abec-5 steel bearings. Kings labyrinth seals are just like anyone elses. Same with the retaining ring... This stuff is really nothing extroardinary, it's just simply done right, and has a nice bright-dip anodized finish, and they do a good job of running an ethical company. (I already b!thced about the ego, which is my sole issue w/ king) Regardless of how amazing everything sounds in magazines, there's not a part in the bike industry that makes the other exponentially larger industries in the world stop and scratch their heads. It's all cheap, basic stuff. Anything that isn't is a leftover tablescrap and can be identified by a cost figure horrendously out of scale. Zipps $3000 wheels for instance...

Anyone near LA going to the Westec machine trade show or the huge IMTS in Chicago will encounter a several specialty vendors who have and/or do supply king (along with a thousand other brands) with gears, bearing parts, and anodizing services. In what capacity, no one but king knows, but they're just an example of components done right by a company that likes to do things right. Nothing more nothing less.

As for prices, yes, there are other factors that everyone else has to deal with as well. Mostly though, the amount of middlemen & leeches in the bike business is why I refuse to enter it again. It's fun for a while, but there are wayyy too many hands in the cookie jar, which makes it hard on everyone. Unfortunately, no one's made a better way work, so this is what we have. Companies that are going to survive in this system need a ton of margin. King gets their margin on these products, and they survive. Can't really complain about that.


----------



## Mad Dog Killer (Sep 22, 2004)

everyone knows that CK is not cheap , you buy it or you don't , just don't argue after saying that it's to much money . You had a choice before buying.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

singletrack said:


> Well, since you're asking.
> 
> I broke my '03 Banshee on a Friday, e-mailed them a pic of the crack, and had a new '04 on Thursday. Beat THAT for customer service.


Wooo you got me beat all to hell haven't ya? I'm jealous!


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Wasatch Walt said:


> Far higher quality than anything you can buy off of the shelf. I have ten YEARS of extreme abuse on a set of CK hubs. Before CK, I used to go through HSs constantly.


I don't agree here. If you were "going through headsets constantly" then you or whomever works on your bike was doing something wrong. Headsets are dead simple and I pop open headsets from 5, 10, 15, and even 25+ years ago and I don't see them "constantly failing". Install it correctly and you'll get a lot of life out of it. My 1997 cane creek is doing fine, because it was put in correctly. I've changed the bearings twice, but my total outlay of money is still about half of what a CK costs. There's nothing "special" about CK, if their CNC machines were really that far and above everything else, they'd be making aircraft engines and turbine parts. Do you really think that CK is far and above the rest of the industry? What makes CKs CNC machines so much better than anyone elses? Put in a few months at a bike shop that does a lot of business working on bikes, and you'll see a lot more parts and components that last longer than CK.


----------



## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

Jayem said:


> I don't agree here.


Me neither. Every King headset I've used (lots) have gotten notchy after a few years. I kept buying them becuase I was compelled to have the bling.

In reality, the best performing HS I've owned is a relatively cheap FSA Orbit XL II.



> Do you really think that CK is far and above the rest of the industry?


10 years ago they were. It's the same reason people still pay more for Cannondale.


----------



## Wasatch Walt (Jan 12, 2004)

Master Shake said:


> I used to hear this a lot from cyclists. Much like the Navy trying to get Treks miraculous carbon composite technology, this is a myth. Anyone who has ever had to spec bearings for anything knows there are some truly amazing bearings out there. You think those king bearings are nice? They're fine. The reality is, they could be abec-5 grade or abec-7, and no one would ever know the difference in a headset (or hub), but an abec-7 would cost a hell of a lot (25-50%) more. If you want to replace your bearings with really nice off-the-shelf units, you could spend up a few hundred bucks or a grand on replacement bearings that are so well done they require a hundred hours of run-in to align properly. But you'd never notice the difference, because the differences only comes into play at high rpms, temps or loads, and bicycle headsets & hubs endure none of these. Any decreased drag is lost in all the necessary seals. What they do endure is contaminates, which ruin thousand dollar ceramic bearings as fast as they ruin $5 abec-5 steel bearings. Kings labyrinth seals are just like anyone elses. Same with the retaining ring... This stuff is really nothing extroardinary, it's just simply done right, and has a nice bright-dip anodized finish, and they do a good job of running an ethical company. (I already b!thced about the ego, which is my sole issue w/ king) Regardless of how amazing everything sounds in magazines, there's not a part in the bike industry that makes the other exponentially larger industries in the world stop and scratch their heads. It's all cheap, basic stuff. Anything that isn't is a leftover tablescrap and can be identified by a cost figure horrendously out of scale. Zipps $3000 wheels for instance...
> 
> Anyone near LA going to the Westec machine trade show or the huge IMTS in Chicago will encounter a several specialty vendors who have and/or do supply king (along with a thousand other brands) with gears, bearing parts, and anodizing services. In what capacity, no one but king knows, but they're just an example of components done right by a company that likes to do things right. Nothing more nothing less.
> 
> As for prices, yes, there are other factors that everyone else has to deal with as well. Mostly though, the amount of middlemen & leeches in the bike business is why I refuse to enter it again. It's fun for a while, but there are wayyy too many hands in the cookie jar, which makes it hard on everyone. Unfortunately, no one's made a better way work, so this is what we have. Companies that are going to survive in this system need a ton of margin. King gets their margin on these products, and they survive. Can't really complain about that.


I respect your opinion and stand corrected.

My only wonder is, why don't more do this? I have been riding long enough to remember HS for example, before King. I went through many; contaminated, ruined, hard to tighten the bearings correctly (surmounted w/ the aheadset) and so on.


----------



## Wasatch Walt (Jan 12, 2004)

Jayem said:


> I don't agree here. If you were "going through headsets constantly" then you or whomever works on your bike was doing something wrong. Headsets are dead simple and I pop open headsets from 5, 10, 15, and even 25+ years ago and I don't see them "constantly failing". Install it correctly and you'll get a lot of life out of it. My 1997 cane creek is doing fine, because it was put in correctly. I've changed the bearings twice, but my total outlay of money is still about half of what a CK costs. There's nothing "special" about CK, if their CNC machines were really that far and above everything else, they'd be making aircraft engines and turbine parts. Do you really think that CK is far and above the rest of the industry? What makes CKs CNC machines so much better than anyone elses? Put in a few months at a bike shop that does a lot of business working on bikes, and you'll see a lot more parts and components that last longer than CK.


Jim,

as usual you are a nothing more than a pain in everyone's butt. You "mirror" posts of other people. Did you get a job yet, I mean beyond the LBS?

I did my time in a bike shop Jim. I bet you I've worked in a bike shop more time than you have, though it is a straight line career path for you. How is the gun in the riding pack? Pull it on anybody lately? Get help on the narcissism ok? I hear therapist have finally cracked the narcissistic dilemma.

hop off toad.

Walt


----------



## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

*Ignore me, as usual.*



Wasatch Walt said:


> I How is the gun in the riding pack? Pull it on anybody lately? Get help on the narcissism ok? I hear therapist have finally cracked the narcissistic dilemma.


 Not pointing fingers at anyone, but what if we just talked about headsets?

I mean, JM once told me I deserved to die because I smoke pot, and I've found the strength to get beyond that and join with him in defying the King myth.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> There's nothing "special" about CK..........Do you really think that CK is far and above the rest of the industry? What makes CKs CNC machines so much better than anyone elses?


Ok I'll tell ya. You listening? _*They make their own bearings,*_ as in "ball bearings". If that doesn't set them apart then nothing does. Name me one other "small" headset maker who does that. Maybe Campagnolo and Shimano do and maybe they don't and they sure as heck ain't small makers.


----------



## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> Ok I'll tell ya. You listening? _*They make their own bearings,*_ as in "ball bearings".


 That's cool in an old world craftsman kinda way for sure, but in the real world it's one mope reason not to buy the product. As you stated in your previous post you had bearing trouble, and needed complete cups and bearings. That's really not a good thing.

In my FSA headset, if I ever need a cart bearing (which doesn't look like it'll ever happen) I can remove them from the cups myself by hand and go down the street to Mesa Bearing and buy a replacement for $10.

Anyways, like I says I've got a King on my main ride because I'm a bike snob, and that's pretty much what it comes down to.


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

Agreed Jayem. We're not talking F1 engines here. In the "CNC world" a headset is as complicated as a keychain. It doesn't get any simpler. It's just a couple aluminum cups and a pair of "standard" sealed bearings.

Fact is CK utilizes a method called "perception pricing". In short, a technique used to create a _*perception*_ of superiority through higher retail pricing. Get familiar with the term as it runs rampant in the bicycling industry.

CK headsets are a distant second to their hubsets in the "WTF?" price category, however. If someone could legitimately explain why a CK hub is 30-40% more than a Hadley I would be interested in hearing it.

The "bling" factor is a legitimate reason one would pay more for a CK headset/hubset and I understand that. Just be honest with yourself. Technically, they are not superior in any way.

My hat is off to CK's marketing director. The power of suggestion is an amazing thing.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

singletrack said:


> As you stated in your previous post you had bearing trouble, and needed complete cups and bearings. That's really not a good thing.


As I said in my first post - "don't ask" regarding the need for new CK bearings. I never said it was a fault of CK or their bearings. I never said I needed cups. If I had returned my headset they would have replaced the damaged bearings. As I didn't want to part with my headset until I had a quick swapover in my hand, they were kind enough to send me bearings AND cups. They said they'd put my old cups on one of their shop bikes.

There was a couple of assumptions in your reply due to me not wanting to type for 30 minutes giving you the full story.

That headset has now been going strong for 10+ years (I've lost count) and I don't expect it to ever need new bearings. That's why I have no concern of their bearings being "factory replacement" only. How many people have ever needed new CK bearings? I've never heard of anyone at this site.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

GGAllen said:


> Agreed Jayem. We're not talking F1 engines here. In the "CNC world" a headset is as complicated as a keychain. It doesn't get any simpler. It's just a couple aluminum cups and a pair of "standard" sealed bearings.
> 
> Fact is CK utilizes a method called "perception pricing". In short, a technique used to create a _*perception*_ of superiority through higher retail pricing. Get familiar with the term as it runs rampant in the bicycling industry.
> 
> ...


You're dead right. I fell into the same trap with my Seven frame, Moots stem & seapost etcetera, etcetera. You fell into the same trap too if you ride anything more than a Stumpjumper.


----------



## J. Zaibatsu (Jul 21, 2005)

Master Shake said:


> ...they're just an example of components done right by a company that likes to do things right. Nothing more nothing less.


Along those lines, I'm curious about the Cane Creek Solos headset. Cane Creek also offers a 10-year warranty and on paper it seems pretty nice. However, the number of reviews or posts on the forums regarding the Solos is virtually nil. Given the S2/S3 are considered great budget headsets, I'm not sure why there's not more interest in the Cane Creek offerings.

On paper, the only downside I can see is that Cane Creek does not make all (any?) of their products in the USA -- admittedly, a big downside, and as a result probably the same attention to environmental friendliness has not been paid as with CK.


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> You fell into the same trap too if you ride anything more than a Stumpjumper.


True, but I try to stay away from the most flagrant offenders. CK is one of them.

The fact that CK "assembles" their own sealed bearings is purely a move to decrease the cost of manufacture. It's wasn't intended to ensure the customer is receiving the best quality bearings. Although marketing will have you believe that.

CK is not a bearing "specialist". They are a bicycle component company who _*happens*_ to assemble three or four sizes of sealed bearings. Again, clever marketing of a method used to decrease manufacturing costs...


----------



## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> As I said in my first post - "don't ask" regarding the need for new CK bearings. I never said it was a fault of CK or their bearings. I never said I needed cups. If I had returned my headset they would have replaced the damaged bearings.


 That's not the point, friend. You could not have serviced the headset on your own, correct?



> How many people have ever needed new CK bearings? I've never heard of anyone at this site.


Well, me at least twice. My current King is slightly indexed as it is. I run big forks though.


----------



## Trond (Mar 7, 2004)

GGAllen said:


> CK headsets are a distant second to their hubsets in the "WTF?" price category, however. If someone could legitimately explain why a CK hub is 30-40% more than a Hadley I would be interested in hearing it.


Hadley use standard machine bearings. King make their own. Rustfree, fully serviceable and work year after year. I've seen Hadley bearings die after a year.

Hadley's engagementsystem is lesser than King's. 108 clicks is fine, but when you think about the fact that it onlye has three pawls - and only one - *ONE* - pawl engage at any given time time...It fails much more often that King.

King's 72click Ringdrive enganges 72 times and the two rings press at each other when pedalling. The harder you pedal, the better it grips. The ringdrive is made of high grade steel and takes many years of riding.

Other than that: The holes for the spokes are a little big on the Hadley, King's are tight. Bigger holes give the spoke more stress at the bend. Good wheelbuilders get around this though.

And it's lighter.

Hadley has nothing on King.

Trond
Rides both hubs.


----------



## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

Trond said:


> I've seen Hadley bearings die after a year.


 I've seen King hubs loose constantly. And of course you need a special tool to adjust 'um, unlessen you wanna jam a spanner in there. I want real world reliability and serviceability. Chris King does not offer this.

See, now with a Hugi hub you can disassemble without any tools at all and rebuild with standard parts, and they also do not rely on pawls.

King stuff sure is purdy, but that's where it ends.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Wasatch Walt said:


> Jim,
> 
> as usual you are a nothing more than a pain in everyone's butt. You "mirror" posts of other people. Did you get a job yet, I mean beyond the LBS?


Actually I don't always read everyone elses posts, so my "thoughts" come from myself, sorry.

And yes, I am paid to fly airplanes.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> Ok I'll tell ya. You listening? _*They make their own bearings,*_ as in "ball bearings". If that doesn't set them apart then nothing does. Name me one other "small" headset maker who does that. Maybe Campagnolo and Shimano do and maybe they don't and they sure as heck ain't small makers.


So? A bearing is a bearing. How is it possible that CK makes better bearings than the rest of the bike and aerospace industry?


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

GGAllen said:


> Agreed Jayem. We're not talking F1 engines here. In the "CNC world" a headset is as complicated as a keychain. It doesn't get any simpler. It's just a couple aluminum cups and a pair of "standard" sealed bearings.
> 
> Fact is CK utilizes a method called "perception pricing". In short, a technique used to create a _*perception*_ of superiority through higher retail pricing. Get familiar with the term as it runs rampant in the bicycling industry.


And I would agree with that and take it one step further and say that most people who will spend $120 on a headset will figure that $20-30 more to install it isn't much more money, so the headset will get installed correctly rather than when the consumer tries to install a cheap headset with some 2x4s and a mallet...


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

A few points..



Trond said:


> Hadley's engagementsystem is lesser than King's. 108 clicks is fine, but when you think about the fact that it onlye has three pawls - and only one - *ONE* - pawl engage at any given time time...It fails much more often that King.


Be truthful, have you ever seen a Hadley 108pt fail or even heard of one failing? They have been bulletproof by all my accounts...



> And it's lighter.


 Compare apples to apples. Once you add the Fun Bolts and the heavy duty drive shell that the King _*requires*_ to match the Hadley in strength, they approach the same weight..



> The holes for the spokes are a little big on the Hadley, King's are tight. Bigger holes give the spoke more stress at the bend.


 Maybe with certain spokes..and maybe the "smaller" holes on the CK create stress on the elbow for certain other spokes. I would like to hear from a wheel builder on this one...



> The harder you pedal, the better it grips.


 ???? Is that supposed to be "good"? I prefer the "grip" to be consistent.



> Hadley use standard machine bearings.


 Where do you get your info.?? Hadley does not use "standard machine bearings".



> Rustfree, fully serviceable


SAME AS HADLEY.



> King make their own.


Read my above post for the real reason King "make" their own. 

Listen, the King hub is great, looks good and for the most part bombproof but it is not 30-40% better than it's competitors as the price suggests. It's cool if you believe the hype. But that's all it is.

Hadley is all over King.


----------



## Boon Fly (Mar 3, 2004)

*Some more flagrant than others?*



GGAllen said:


> True, but I try to stay away from the most flagrant offenders. CK is one of them.
> 
> The fact that CK "assembles" their own sealed bearings is purely a move to decrease the cost of manufacture. It's wasn't intended to ensure the customer is receiving the best quality bearing. Although they will have you believe that.
> 
> CK is not a bearing "specialist". They are a bicycle component company who _*happens*_ to assemble three or four sizes of sealed bearings. Again, clever marketing of a method used to decrease manufacturing costs...


This issue of price/quality/perception/value/hype seems to be widespread over a variety of topics on this site. King (here), Titus and Turner come to mind recently when talking about different brands. I respect everyone's opinion and think it'd great that this forum allows those opinions to be expressed. That being said, I personally disagree with all of the 'it's just marketing hype' or 'they drive the perception by jacking up the price'. That's all a load of nonsense IMHO. The market, in any industry, does not allow for it over the long run. Sure, someone could show up and pull the wool over our eyes for a brief moment but over the long-haul, which King has proven to do, it's impossible for a company to just flagrantly drive perception by increasing prices. There is too much intense competition in the marketplace for something like this to happen. The bottom line is King makes a great product, end of story. If you don't believe it, don't buy it, that's perfectly fine. Matter of fact, not everyone is going to have a great experience with King but over the years they have established themselves as a legit company in the bike industry that delivers a great product. And as some others on this thread have eluded to, King may or my not have the best in class CNC manufacturing and production 'in the world'? It's fair to say that they are right up there if not the best but that doesn't mean they have to produce aerospace parts or F1 parts. Where does that even come from and why are so may cyclists seemingly eager to bring the standards of the bike industry down? I mean talk about hype, F1? Personally that does nothing for me but new bike technology, now that's intriguing! Besides, does anyone else remember that quote in Velonews ( I think it was Velonews?) from a couple of years ago. I don't remember verbatim but it was something to the effect of - from the mouth of an F1 engineer - 'We need our F1 vehicles to be engineered to a level of precision on par with mountain bikes'. Maybe F1 will go to King for some advice


----------



## the Inbred (Jan 13, 2004)

$6 to ship? god damn. 

you're gonna get the upper race and it's not going to have the black rubber piece in it. that's an additional $14. and the adhesive you have to use to keep it in place is a special blend. that's another $5. but it's on back-order right now. they should have it in 2 weeks.


----------



## akdeluxe (May 16, 2004)

*wow!*



singletrack said:


> Well, since you're asking.
> 
> I broke my '03 Banshee on a Friday, e-mailed them a pic of the crack, and had a new '04 on Thursday. Beat THAT for customer service.


 That is good.


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

altaskier said:


> .. or F1 parts. Where does that even come from and why are so may cyclists seemingly eager to bring the standards of the bike industry..


 I was merely attempting to demonstrate the technological design challenge (or lack thereof) that a bicycle headset presents. Sorry you didn't get it.. I welcome the high manufacturing standards of CK headsets/hubsets. I don't dispute the quality of any of their products. They are fine without a doubt, however, they are simply not 30-40% "better" than the competition as their price suggests.



> ..I personally disagree with all of the 'it's just marketing hype' or 'they drive the perception by jacking up the price'. That's all a load of nonsense IMHO. The market, in any industry, does not allow for it over the long run. Sure, someone could show up and pull the wool over our eyes for a brief moment but over the long-haul...


Face it. A large portion of CK's retail price _*IS*_ hype and I agree, the market will not allow for it in the long run. King raised their prices less than a year ago. We will see how they fair in the market a couple years from now...



> it's impossible for a company to just flagrantly drive perception by increasing prices


*It is entirely possible*. It's one of the basic fundamentals of commerce. In fact that is the whole concept of "perception pricing". 



> 'We need our F1 vehicles to be engineered to a level of precision on par with mountain bikes'.


 A tongue in cheek comment, no doubt..


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

GGAllen said:


> True, but I try to stay away from the most flagrant offenders. CK is one of them.


Hypocrisy lives eh? Let's keep going on this to find how much of a hypocrite you are. Do you wear anything more than a $10 Timex? How about $5 sneakers? How do you gauge that what you wear is worth more than those symbolic things?

Remember, it was you who said "Fact is CK utilizes a method called "perception pricing". In short, a technique used to create a perception of superiority through higher retail pricing. Get familiar with the term as it runs rampant in the bicycling industry..........The "bling" factor is a legitimate reason one would pay more for a CK headset/hubset and I understand that. Just be honest with yourself. Technically, they are not superior in any way. My hat is off to CK's marketing director. The power of suggestion is an amazing thing."


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> So? A bearing is a bearing. How is it possible that CK makes better bearings than the rest of the bike and aerospace industry?


Tell CK that. I asked them years ago if they actually MADE their own balls and if so, why. Yes they do make their own balls and it's not just for fun or bragging rights. Why would they go to the trouble if they couldn't do a better job than the mass bearing suppliers? Why would thet spend mega-mega$$ on the machine? Answer - because they can turn out better quality and consistency and therefore won't be at the mercy of some offshore bearing maker. Read their site on their opinions of the offshore companies who are able to crank out cheaper stuff than CK because they don't give a damn about the environment or workers' condtions. Caring costs.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> Why would thet spend mega-mega$$ on the machine?


So they have the basis and a reason for charging people what they do, and that in turn allows them to give their employees real wages. It could also make things more convenient for them, and that right there could be worth it to them. I have no problem with any of this, but I doubt CK would ever come clean on it.


----------



## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Jayem said:


> ...so the headset will get installed correctly rather than when the consumer tries to install a cheap headset with some 2x4s and a mallet...


LOL, I'll tap in my headsets (King or otherwise) with a mallet every time before giving it to a shop monkey to wrestle with the Park tool. Oh, and I don't use a 2x4, but a nice block of cherry.


----------



## ncj01 (Jan 13, 2004)

*I'm the guilty party*

I'm cross-posting this in 29er and Passion, since it's the 2 places it's mentioned.

I sold my brother the HS.

It was a package deal, Green King HS (new in package) with a matching set of 29er ISO Disk Green King wheels, and a Rock Shox REBA 29er, 100mm. The price was a slammin' deal of all deals, and I took the paypal fee hit, and paid shipping. He paid the retail price of the wheels and HS, got the fork for free.

The deal I gave him, and the fee's and shipping I paid in no way justify the piece being missing from the HS.

I am perplexed as to why it was not there, as I got the HS new from an authorized dealer, and did not open it, even to fondle it's beauty and whisper "my precious" to it while huddled in the fetal position in a dark corner of my garage (as I am often apt to do with extreme bling).

Upon hearing from the buyer that it was missing and King was charging what felt high a high amount, I offered to send money via paypal, no problem, no questions, no nothing, just cash. The buyer refused, saying it wasn't the money, just the feeling of being price-gouged by King, and a general feeling of a lack of customer service from them.

I'm not wanting to get further involved in that debate, but through all my buying and selling, I've NEVER (to my knowledge) had an unhappy buyer, so despite him saying he didn't want it, I sent the buyer cash anyway.

Thanks for keeping my name out of it man, I know you are taking heat from the forum members for not chewin' my butt online, and I appreciate your discretion, but I'm here for all to flame if they want, I'm the evil seller...I have no idea why I would keep a small peice from a Green King HS, or what I would do with it, or why I would risk an otherwise perfect seller rating (which is a long one if you hang on the 29er board), but that's the story, I'm out of the closet now.

Here's the wheels and an example of the HS. The HS photo'd is on a Titus RX 29er in Louisainna, and the buyer above got my spare, new in package.


----------



## The SS Boz (Apr 12, 2004)

singletrack said:


> Well, since you're asking.
> 
> I broke my '03 Banshee on a Friday, e-mailed them a pic of the crack, and had a new '04 on Thursday. Beat THAT for customer service.


I think I got ya beat

Similiar story...amazingly from TREK

2001 9.8 frame...cracked on thursday....next day'd 2004 frame...reassembled on saturday afternoon....ridden on sunday

Apparently this bike shop in Nashville had some pull with TREK

However TREK customer service is random...had buddies take weeks for parts...linkages....

-Boz


----------



## Evel Knievel (Mar 28, 2004)

Thats too bad that the photo shows the bag stuffed in from the bottom. But does not reveal the top of the headset.


----------



## ncj01 (Jan 13, 2004)

Evel Knievel said:


> Thats too bad that the photo shows the bag stuffed in from the bottom. But does not reveal the top of the headset.


That photo captures the actual wheelset, but a different HS. I'm certain the one in question was stuffed and stapled.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> So they have the basis and a reason for charging people what they do, and that in turn allows them to give their employees real wages. It could also make things more convenient for them, and that right there could be worth it to them. I have no problem with any of this, but I doubt CK would ever come clean on it.


That's why we're all free to spend our money on what we like for the reasons we like. Lotsa people buy Rolex watches and lotsa people buy Timex and lotsa those people thinks the other group's nuts. And they're both right & wrong. If we don't agree, don't do it.

I took off a Thomson stem and replaced it with a Moots. S'my frikkin' money and I'm bright enough to know I don't go one bit faster.


----------



## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Master Shake said:


> I used to hear this a lot from cyclists. Much like the Navy trying to get Treks miraculous carbon composite technology, this is a myth. Anyone who has ever had to spec bearings for anything knows there are some truly amazing bearings out there. You think those king bearings are nice? They're fine. The reality is, they could be abec-5 grade or abec-7, and no one would ever know the difference in a headset (or hub), but an abec-7 would cost a hell of a lot (25-50%) more. If you want to replace your bearings with really nice off-the-shelf units, you could spend up a few hundred bucks or a grand on replacement bearings that are so well done they require a hundred hours of run-in to align properly. But you'd never notice the difference, because the differences only comes into play at high rpms, temps or loads, and bicycle headsets & hubs endure none of these. Any decreased drag is lost in all the necessary seals. What they do endure is contaminates, which ruin thousand dollar ceramic bearings as fast as they ruin $5 abec-5 steel bearings. Kings labyrinth seals are just like anyone elses. Same with the retaining ring... This stuff is really nothing extroardinary, it's just simply done right, and has a nice bright-dip anodized finish, and they do a good job of running an ethical company. (I already b!thced about the ego, which is my sole issue w/ king) Regardless of how amazing everything sounds in magazines, there's not a part in the bike industry that makes the other exponentially larger industries in the world stop and scratch their heads. It's all cheap, basic stuff. Anything that isn't is a leftover tablescrap and can be identified by a cost figure horrendously out of scale. Zipps $3000 wheels for instance...
> 
> Anyone near LA going to the Westec machine trade show or the huge IMTS in Chicago will encounter a several specialty vendors who have and/or do supply king (along with a thousand other brands) with gears, bearing parts, and anodizing services. In what capacity, no one but king knows, but they're just an example of components done right by a company that likes to do things right. Nothing more nothing less.
> 
> As for prices, yes, there are other factors that everyone else has to deal with as well. Mostly though, the amount of middlemen & leeches in the bike business is why I refuse to enter it again. It's fun for a while, but there are wayyy too many hands in the cookie jar, which makes it hard on everyone. Unfortunately, no one's made a better way work, so this is what we have. Companies that are going to survive in this system need a ton of margin. King gets their margin on these products, and they survive. Can't really complain about that.


Yep, I have made essentially the same argument about King bearings and bicycle industry technology in general. You want to see some amazing stuff check out a Formula 1 clutch assembly, more cutting edge technology in that one part than any 5 big bike companies combined.


----------



## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

GGAllen said:


> I was merely attempting to demonstrate the technological design challenge (or lack thereof) that a bicycle headset presents. Sorry you didn't get it.. I welcome the high manufacturing standards of CK headsets/hubsets. I don't dispute the quality of any of their products. They are fine without a doubt, however, they are simply not 30-40% "better" than the competition as their price suggests.


A Porsche Carrera will be higher priced than a Ford Mustang. It is not only looks that will make a difference, or just the motor. There will be many details that allows Porshe to sell their cars at their selling price.

Maybe the difference is not just in 'riding' quality, but how much it last, and some other details that are not first visible. It's hard to say that a product is 40% better than another. I've heard it's one of the components one takes from one bike to another. I just got a CK headset on my new bike and I'm glad of it (but it came with the fork  ).

Maybe you could talk about value, would it be better to buy a FSA headset for half of a CK for a bike? Maybe, it depends on what you want. Probably I wouldn't have specked the CK if it didnt came 'free' ( I don't know if part of the cost was raised on the fork).


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> Hypocrisy lives eh? Let's keep going on this to find how much of a hypocrite you are. Do you wear anything more than a $10 Timex? How about $5 sneakers?


 A more accurate analogy would be $80.00 sneakers compared to $200.00 sneakers...I said _*FLAGRANT*_ offenders, Mike. Since you have trouble comprehending this basic commerce concept I'll word it more plainly..

I would describe a flagrant offense as ANY item priced more than 25% HIGHER than their competition with no apparent advantage (materials used, scientific or empirical performance, appearance). Or more simply, when price exceeds performance and materials used..

I don't see the value in a $400.00 cotton Versace T-shirt but they exist and people buy them. This is a fine example of perception/status/hype pricing and their marketing department should be commended. CK products land firmly in this category.

There is nothing "ground breaking" about a CK hub. Sure, the ring drive is clever but a well built ratchet/pawl system will last as long if not longer with less drag to boot.

Do you honestly believe that CK (a bicycle component company who happens to make a *FEW* sizes of *ONE* type of bearing) builds a "better" bearing than a company that actually specializes in design and manufacture of sealed bearings? You've got your blinders on, Mike. If you would like to see what real quality bearings look like try here.. http://www.bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=docs&id=18

Obviously you purchased one of their $409.00 rear hubs and will say just about anything to justify it to yourself.

I know. It's painful.


----------



## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

ncj01 said:


> I sold my brother the HS.


So, How much for the rabbit?


----------



## ncj01 (Jan 13, 2004)

singletrack said:


> So, How much for the rabbit?


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

radair said:


> LOL, I'll tap in my headsets (King or otherwise) with a mallet every time before giving it to a shop monkey to wrestle with the Park tool. Oh, and I don't use a 2x4, but a nice block of cherry.


I've been hankerin' after a nice piece o' birds' eye maple for lovingly tapping in my Kings. Hmmm, Cherry eh? Yes that would be ok too. For now I'm having to do with my ancient and heavily King embossed piece o' spruce. Don't make me post a pic of it!


----------



## The Tractor (Jan 15, 2004)

*King is passing on the cost of Clean manufacturing............*

I personally do not have anything King (yet), But I read thier website and understand why they cost so much more. All the machines that they had to buy to operate to clean the air and water with are not cheap, they use more electricity (as opposed if the machines were not there), they are paying to have the hazmat that they themselves cannot recycle away (expensive). These are all costs that eat away at the profit margin. They also can chrage more for thier product because they make thier own ball bearings in house (better quality control) and their reputation for providing a very good product. They also are making these items (hubs, headsets ect) from bar-stock billet, which is not cheap. These are costs that are passed down to us (end consumer) so they can stay in business and continue to provide a product that can last a lifetime.
Supply and demand, and you get what you pay for.

Rob


----------



## CDtofer (Nov 4, 2004)

*Just to make a few little points*

For Altaskier, yes the bike industry (or any industry for that matter) will allow for certain brands to be priced above others of similar quality based on the perception that they are superior. Its actually called premium pricing and it happens all the time. Now not any old company can charge a premium for its products but certain companies that have built up a suitable reputation can eventually raise their prices beyond their competitors based simply on the fact that the people buying their products endorse and believe that they are better. In the case of CK they can charge more simply because of the number of people who gotta have their stuff for the bling factor. This is a perception that is helped along by marketing and or advertising, no matter how good King stuff is, they would not get away with a 30% (or whatever it was) price hike without good enough marketing to help offset the jump. BUt just like 5000 dollar handbags and 200 dollar designer Tshirts, you are paying for the image nothing more.

I am not bagging on CK, they are a business and if they are environmentally friendly and treat their workers far better than the Wal Marts of the world so much the better. But be honest with yourself when you justify the expenditure, you paid more for the prestige of owning CK than for any huge difference in quality. King is good stuff no doubt, but you have to see the validity of my point when everyone goes nuts over a limited edition special color hubset (pink anyone)


----------



## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

The Tractor said:


> I personally do not have anything King (yet), But I read thier website and understand why they cost so much more. All the machines that they had to buy to operate to clean the air and water with are not cheap, they use more electricity (as opposed if the machines were not there), they are paying to have the hazmat that they themselves cannot recycle away (expensive). These are all costs that eat away at the profit margin. They also can chrage more for thier product because they make thier own ball bearings in house (better quality control) and their reputation for providing a very good product. They also are making these items (hubs, headsets ect) from bar-stock billet, which is not cheap. These are costs that are passed down to us (end consumer) so they can stay in business and continue to provide a product that can last a lifetime.
> Supply and demand, and you get what you pay for.
> 
> Rob


Again, you have been marketed too. King does absolutley nothing more than other manufacturers are doing in the same area. From the waste disposal to the raw material used it's absolutley standard operating procedure, King just happens to do some of it in house and manages to put a nice spin to it. I've spent 20 years in Engineering Manufacturing, that's why the King spiel makes me laugh.


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Sorry, but I don't buy the "superior quality", "clean manufacturing" and all that CK crap.

A fine installed headset is gonna last for years. I've seen 5 bucks headsets last much more than "top brand" stuff.

Also, all the "green manufacturing" and all other "high-tech-CNC-manufacturing" techniques should lead to a price reduction as they avoid waste materials and a lot stuff more... seriously, they should drop their prices with all that.

They do make a fine product. But 100 bucks for a headset is way off.

Also, they may make their own balls, bearings and stuff... but I don't buy that thing that neither Timken or SKF could made a bearing that suit. As someone said, you don't see many CK bearings in F1 or the Space Shuttle where some fine bearings have to be found.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

CDtofer said:


> But be honest with yourself when you justify the expenditure, you paid more for the prestige of owning CK than for any huge difference in quality. King is good stuff no doubt, but you have to see the validity of my point when everyone goes nuts over a limited edition special color hubset (pink anyone)


You're missing the big point of "It's my money 'coz I earned it, I'll spend it as I like without having to justify it to anyone ('cept my Missus) because I think I'll be dead a long time and money is for spending and I don't have to live to your standards because why should you be the one I have to please and if I want my Acura instead of a 10k Kia and if I want my TAG and Universal Geneve instead of the $60 Seiko they replaced and I want custom stained glass in my kitchen window to replace the ordinary glass and if I want to do a big long run-on sentence I'll do it and I'll bet I could come through your house and trip you up on your own philosophy."


----------



## the Inbred (Jan 13, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> Sorry, but I don't buy the "superior quality", "clean manufacturing" and all that CK crap.


so don't buy King, man. no one's going to miss you.


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

the Inbred said:


> so don't buy King, man. no one's going to miss you.


Thanks for the unrequested advice.... 

I wouldn't buy King even if my life would depend on it.


----------



## CDtofer (Nov 4, 2004)

*I hope you are being a bit tongue in cheek sir...*

I do not believe I am missing that point at all. I am just trying to point out that certain companies cultivate their brand image so that they can charge a premium for what is essentially nothing, ie a belief that their product is superior. I am not saying that those people who want those Tag watches and Gucci handbags are wrong. As related to mountain biking if you want to bling out your bike in all its purple and pink and green CK glory so be it. (Yes, I will look at your pictures)

Just tryin to help a little in terms of the reality department  If you can afford it buy it, just know what you are paying for. Certain companies are looking to give an emotional attachment to their stuff so you will want to buy it, regardless of what it costs or its actual worth. That what advertising is trying to do to you every day.


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

You are right CDtofer. He doesn't get it.

I can show you the difference between a Heuer and a Timex.
I can show you the difference between an Acura and a Kia.
I can show you the difference in stained glass and clear glass.

..and they will all be differences that will account for the increase in cost.

Show me the difference between a King, Hadley or DTSwiss hub Mike.  

The sheep will continue to follow...


----------



## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

For several products people are willing to pay extra money just for the brand. I don't see it much as price perseption, but as brand awareness. A Ferrari Modena and a Toyota Corola will take you safetly from point A to point B. The Modena may cost 10X as much as the Corola, but it won't take you 10X as fast, or 10X as confortable (in fact, maybe the Corola is more confortable, more interior space and softer suspension). But, try to sell a customer that wants to buy a Modena a Corola, and see if you're succesful. It won't matter if you say, but it's cheaper, more miles per gallon, you can seat four to five passengers on it.... Or take a Corola potential buyer to buy a Modena, deals like 'it's like 4 seconds from idle to the post.... 5 gals per mile, or it has a sporty feeling, or technicaly it has this or that...'.

Now, if CK decided to sell their headsets at, say, 50 bucks, a lot of people who would have bought a CK may decide that there is a reason for a price drop and look at what they have removed in order to make it at that price.


----------



## LeeL (Jan 12, 2004)

ggallen. You have a unique style of debate. Trying to convince someone by insulting them. Do you go to charm school for that? Mike has nice stuff - so?


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

GGAllen said:


> Show me the difference between a King, Hadley or DTSwiss hub Mike.


Ok I'll show you my ex-DTSwiss hub. This was done by a 57 year old going up a hill with an elevation gain of about 15', in the middle ring. I know as I was that dude. When have you EVER seen a King like this? I've seen pics of a dozen DTs like this. I know nothing of Hadley; never seen one. I know King; I've owned them. I bought a King. DT warrantied the (4 yr old) hub; I sold it on e-bay real fast. A reasonable decision eh?


----------



## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

GGAllen said:


> Show me the difference between a King, Hadley or DTSwiss hub Mike.


I've taken all three apart. They are definitely different.


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

itsdoable said:


> I've taken all three apart. They are definitely different.


 Yes they are all different design wise. But is one a clear standout in performance?

One _*is*_ a clear standout in price...


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

LeeL said:


> ggallen. You have a unique style of debate. Trying to convince someone by insulting them. Do you go to charm school for that? Mike has nice stuff - so?


It wasn't my intention to offend, nor am I trying to convince anyone. King prices can't be justified through performance or technology. That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less.

For the record, Mike does own one very sweet bike. 

Now let's ride.


----------



## smw (Jun 22, 2005)

Face it. A large portion of CK's retail price _*IS*_ hype and I agree, the market will not allow for it in the long run. King raised their prices less than a year ago. We will see how they fair in the market a couple years from now...

*It is entirely possible*. It's one of the basic fundamentals of commerce. In fact that is the whole concept of "perception pricing". 

A tongue in cheek comment, no doubt.. [/QUOTE]

Perhaps the LBS purchases these parts for half of msrp. Maybe the LBS is making a higher profit margin. Either way I will continue to buy CK products simply because I like the companys awesome products, and they look good too.


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> Ok I'll show you my ex-DTSwiss hub. This was done by a 57 year old going up a hill with an elevation gain of about 15', in the middle ring. I know as I was that dude. When have you EVER seen a King like this? I've seen pics of a dozen DTs like this. I know nothing of Hadley; never seen one. I know King; I've owned them. I bought a King. DT warrantied the (4 yr old) hub; I sold it on e-bay real fast. A reasonable decision eh?


That's unfortunate Mike. I split an LX hub like that about a decade ago. However, I was referring to the 240 series DT hubs..


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

GGAllen said:


> It wasn't my intention to offend, nor am I trying to convince anyone. King prices can't be justified through performance or technology. That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less.
> For the record, Mike does own one very sweet bike.
> Now let's ride.


You're not offending me. I like a nice debate where no-one gets nasty. My buddy Leel's just sticking up for me. I met him and rode with him 2x even though 3/4 the width of Canada separates us. Hi ya Leel. I wish we all could ride.


----------



## smw (Jun 22, 2005)

GGAllen said:


> A more accurate analogy would be $80.00 sneakers compared to $200.00 sneakers...I said _*FLAGRANT*_ offenders, Mike. Since you have trouble comprehending this basic commerce concept I'll word it more plainly..
> 
> I would describe a flagrant offense as ANY item priced more than 25% HIGHER than their competition with no apparent advantage (materials used, scientific or empirical performance, appearance). Or more simply, when price exceeds performance and materials used..
> 
> ...


----------



## drumstix (Dec 31, 2003)

Dammed if you do and dammed if you dont! King does all work in house, claims that the shop is completely environmentally safe, uses and processes the waiste. Im sure that this isnt cheap. I guess he could save some money and charge less by dumping the ano waist into the river, or put it in a old milk container and toss it in the trash. Is a $2000.00 dollar Ventana X5 any better than a $1200.00 Kona Coiler? To some it is, is a $200.00 set of Snap-on wrenches any better than a $25.00 set of Craftsman? Again, to some, quaility crafted, or US made craftsmanship is worth a few extra dollars, maybe even an extra $100.. CK hubs and headsets are considered "the best" of the best. If you compare that to the price difference of cars or perhaps some musical instruments, the difference is nothing.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

GGAllen said:


> That's unfortunate Mike. I split an LX hub like that about a decade ago. However, I was referring to the 240 series DT hubs..


That _*is*_ a DT-Swiss 240 series re-labled Magura Pro.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

drumstix said:


> Dammed if you do and dammed if you dont! King does all work in house, claims that the shop is completely environmentally safe, uses and processes the waiste. Im sure that this isnt cheap. I guess he could save some money and charge less by dumping the ano waist into the river, or put it in a old milk container and toss it in the trash. Is a $2000.00 dollar Ventana X5 any better than a $1200.00 Kona Coiler? To some it is, is a $200.00 set of Snap-on wrenches any better than a $25.00 set of Craftsman? Again, to some, quaility crafted, or US made craftsmanship is worth a few extra dollars, maybe even an extra $100.. CK hubs and headsets are considered "the best" of the best. If you compare that to the price difference of cars or perhaps some musical instruments, the difference is nothing.


At least *you* understand. We make our own judgements and they don't have to make much sense to anyone else.


----------



## LeeL (Jan 12, 2004)

GGAllen said:


> It wasn't my intention to offend, nor am I trying to convince anyone. King prices can't be justified through performance or technology. That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less.
> 
> For the record, Mike does own one very sweet bike.
> 
> Now let's ride.


OK - you're much too nice for me to bash. Mike has nice bikes; I like to rebuild derailleurs out of duct tape and metal shavings. Yet both of us lust after King. Go figure


----------



## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

drumstix said:


> claims that the shop is completely environmentally safe, uses and processes the waiste. Im sure that this isnt cheap. I guess he could save some money and charge less by dumping the ano waist into the river, or put it in a old milk container and toss it in the trash.


Not to belabor the point but again, everybody in manufacturing has to do these things. Coming from a company where the EPA and OSHA were crawling up our azz regularly I'm very familiar with this topic. In this day and age if you so much as think of dumping something in back of the shop the EPA will shut the whole comapny down. The fact that King does this on their own rather than sub-contract like many companies seems irrelevent to me, it's still getting done. Heck, it's probably cheaper for King to handle this on their own. Headset price discount? Also I doubt they do their own Anodizing, this along with plating are two very nasty processes.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

LeeL said:


> OK - you're much too nice for me to bash. Mike has nice bikes; I like to rebuild derailleurs out of duct tape and metal shavings. Yet both of us lust after King. Go figure


Leel, don't worry as we all have some weird quirks. Here's a pic of you duct-taping the beads back onto the sidewalls of your tires at Whizzler BC. We all cudda gone downtown and _*bought*_ you a nice set of tires but think of the story we wouldn't have for our grandkids. If I told these guys here what you do for a living, their reaction to the hilarious thrifty duct taping would be along the lines of "Now I've seen everything".


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> That _*is*_ a DT-Swiss 240 series re-labled Magura Pro.


Ah yes. The DT Magura Superlight Pro S... The one you have pictured is a few years old. I believe changes have been made to rectify some of it's early shortcomings. I wasn't aware hub shell strength was one of them.

Actually, it looks as though the pawl to ratchet interface was somehow compromised and a pawl was pulled loose and wedged between the hub shell and the ratchet mechanism, thereby splitting the hub shell. Clearly a defect. At least you got 4 years out of it.


----------



## Monte (Dec 20, 2003)

Funny how the original poster made 1 or 2 replies, then disappeared.

Monte


----------



## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

*Hubs, headsets- King and others: my experience*

I haven't tried too many headsets. I went along with the King hype a long time ago, and have never had a reason to change to anything else. So I can't really say if King's headsets are head and shoulders above any others, but I can say that if I were buying a new headset, I probably wouldn't spend/ waste the extra money on eye candy. I just don't care anymore. I've seen King's ad, the one with the original 1976 headset still being ridden today. So what? I've worked in shops and seen any number of old bikes' headsets. Whatever, the King headsets I bought awhile back are still working great, so I won't change out what I've got.
One thing I can definitely say about their rear hub: it is the only rear hub which is used by trials riders, who are known as by far the worst hub-wreckers out there. Think of consistently landing six foot drops on a rigid bike with the brakes locked and a good portion of your body weight leaning on the pedals. (Yes, a smooth landing technique lessens this problem, but still...) All kinds of other companies have tried to market their hubs on the side as being good for trials. Guess what? They all stop doing so pretty quickly when they realize how much money they're losing on warranty. True, King doesn't warranty their hubs for trials anymore, but they're still the hub of choice.
Of course, not everyone rides trials. Another thing: they stock slightly oversized OD hub bearings so if your hub shell's bearing cavity gets enlarged from lots of heavy riding, they can just press a new one in. I have had the same problem on other cart bearing hubs and had to throw them away. 
Most people here are just reg'lar old XC guys, but for me, the quick engagement on the rear hub is a boon for technical riding. And they are light without, like XTR, forcing you to use certain brakes. Money being no object, I'd ride no other rear hub.
But for me, money now is an object.
Hubs with cup and cone bearings spin smooth, are cheap, last a long time, and are easily serviceable. If I buy another bike, they'll be on it. 50 dollars is a great deal for a rear hub that lasts a decade.


----------



## drumstix (Dec 31, 2003)

GGAllen said:


> Ah yes. The DT Magura Superlight Pro S... The one you have pictured is a few years old. I believe changes have been made to rectify some of it's early shortcomings. I wasn't aware hub shell strength was one of them.
> 
> Actually, it looks as though the pawl to ratchet interface was somehow compromised and a pawl was pulled loose and wedged between the hub shell and the ratchet mechanism, thereby splitting the hub shell. Clearly a defect. At least you got 4 years out of it.


From what I was told, bad shells that couldnt handle the spoke tension. DT did warr. these hubs. The FR rear hubs had the same problem. (seen it my self) For what its worth, a DT FR rear hub is retailed at only $35.00 less than a King rear hub.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

GGAllen said:


> Ah yes. The DT Magura Superlight Pro S... The one you have pictured is a few years old. I believe changes have been made to rectify some of it's early shortcomings. I wasn't aware hub shell strength was one of them.
> 
> Actually, it looks as though the pawl to ratchet interface was somehow compromised and a pawl was pulled loose and wedged between the hub shell and the ratchet mechanism, thereby splitting the hub shell. Clearly a defect. At least you got 4 years out of it.


Pawls? What pawls? I never saw any pawls inside and I had it apart a few times. I saw a couple of toothed discs that could hardly be described as pawls.

It was obviously my awesome legstrength that tore that hub asunder. Ahhh yes.


----------



## Boon Fly (Mar 3, 2004)

*All good points-*



GGAllen said:


> I was merely attempting to demonstrate the technological design challenge (or lack thereof) that a bicycle headset presents. Sorry you didn't get it.. I welcome the high manufacturing standards of CK headsets/hubsets. I don't dispute the quality of any of their products. They are fine without a doubt, however, they are simply not 30-40% "better" than the competition as their price suggests.
> 
> Face it. A large portion of CK's retail price _*IS*_ hype and I agree, the market will not allow for it in the long run. King raised their prices less than a year ago. We will see how they fair in the market a couple years from now...
> 
> ...


Hey there-
Those are all good points. I realize that the F1 comment was probably tongue and cheek but it was still worth mentioning; if nothing else to lighten up this negative thread. The only thing I will say though in response to your points is that the concept of 'perception pricing' is a total farce. That was the entire point of my original posting - people can say it exists and talk like it's a principle of marketing and commerce but it's a total farce in the long-term. Yes it can work for a 'minute' but not in the long term - that's entirely the point. King raising prices is such a normal thing, speaking of basic principles of commerce. Everyone is raising their prices. I saw a press release the other day that FSA, who produces everything overseas, is raising all of their prices effective immediately. (Citing rising fuel costs.) Why is it that King shouldn't raise their prices? I can't think of one legitimate reason because there isn't one. Everyone wants a great deal on the best product out there but what entitles people to a 'great deal'? There is no entitlement IMHO. If you find something on sale or get lucky somehow and get a great price then great but why should King 'hook' everybody up by keeping prices low or passing on savings to the consumer? The market is self-adjusting - Like you said, they raised prices recently (not the first time BTW) and we'll see how they do. They'll still be in business and the guys passing along the savings to the consumer will be out of business.


----------



## Evel Knievel (Mar 28, 2004)

Monte said:


> Funny how the original poster made 1 or 2 replies, then disappeared.
> 
> Monte


Original poster claimed to own 5 king headsets a couple were spares. The guy he bought it from had 2 green ones. Then the photo he produces strangely has the headset laying down against logic . Parts of discussion blatently hidden.

King CS had every right to be skeptical about this third party claim.


----------



## Photo-John (Aug 1, 2001)

*Thank You*



Jessep said:


> Did you ever read the article about the King factory? Their commitment to the environment makes them top in my book, no matter what else they do. Some of the trouble they go through to avoid destroying the planet add to the total cost of manufacture also.


Thanks. I was going to comment on that. Their manufacturing practices definitely cost more than other companies'. And what other part on your bike can you count on to never fail?


----------



## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

GGAllen said:


> itsdoable said:
> 
> 
> > I've taken all three apart. They are definitely different.
> ...


My wife did this:








Rear only needed rebuilding. She was not able to destroy the CK versions, and the rear CK rear didn't need any rebuilds. DT however, has great service (but I've never had to use King service).
Up here, the price difference isn't that much.


----------



## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

I only have three gripes with the chris king group.

1) They advertise things they don't really sell (frame cutting tools)

2) They don't offer campy spec rear hubs.

3) I'd like to see them offer more colors.


----------



## SSPIN (Sep 21, 2004)

Lutarious said:


> I Hoping for some consideration, I also asked them to throw me a scuff washer- the little plastic thing. $2 dollars more!
> 
> I'm done with King.


 Is that even suppossed to be used? I threw both of mine away What is that for anyway?


----------



## neveride (Feb 7, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> Sorry, but I don't buy the "superior quality", "clean manufacturing" and all that CK crap.
> 
> Also, all the "green manufacturing" and all other "high-tech-CNC-manufacturing" techniques should lead to a price reduction as they avoid waste materials and a lot stuff more... seriously, they should drop their prices with all that.
> 
> .


Hope you're joking. It costs a lot more to make a "green" product than to just make products and not worry about where the waste (such as in our rivers) is going.


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

neveride said:


> Hope you're joking. It costs a lot more to make a "green" product than to just make products and not worry about where the waste (such as in our rivers) is going.


I don't really think so. As someone said, most companies do it. You just don't dump things into a river.

Heck!!! We're a construction company and we follow strict environmental policies either from the government, client or our company itself. That's not to mention a manufactuing plant which puts out always the same product.

Years ago when I worked for FMC the machining shop did not just dumped waste to the environment... those got to a third party to get recycled. Oils got reclycled and machining bits, broken tooling, metal waste, etc. all were sold to scrap dealing companies (which in turn sold steel to the pipe mill across the street literally).

As everything, the initial investment is rather steep... but that is far from being more costly.

Most of times making a "green" product is cheaper. Way cheaper. From savings in raw materials to savings in packaging it all sums to make a reduction.

The "green is more expensive" is a flag some companies resisting to get into the trend had raised.

CK making a high remark on its new plant is either marketing or that their former plant was obsolete or just short of capacity.

I clearly understand why they do what they do. I just don't share their view.


----------



## nkrax (Nov 24, 2004)

donkey said:


> One point of consideration: I have worked in bike shops for a total of roughly 6 years and I have never seen a king headset show up in a stapled bag. I have always seen them with the excess bag stuffed tightly through the bottom of the headset keeping everythin nice and tight.
> 
> You may have gotten taken by the seller on this one.
> 
> B


Ditto that.


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

uphiller said:


> But for me, money now is an object.
> Hubs with cup and cone bearings spin smooth, are cheap, last a long time, and are easily serviceable. If I buy another bike, they'll be on it. 50 dollars is a great deal for a rear hub that lasts a decade.


Amen, bro!!!

If you're not a weight weenie the Shimano Deores are second to none in value. Performance is not spectacular though. They just work. And they hold up fine through years (several of them)


----------



## Pat T. (Jan 18, 2004)

GGAllen said:


> Agreed Jayem. We're not talking F1 engines here. In the "CNC world" a headset is as complicated as a keychain. It doesn't get any simpler. It's just a couple aluminum cups and a pair of "standard" sealed bearings..


Do you know anything about operating CNC equipment?


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Pat T.? said:


> Do you know anything about operating CNC equipment?


Actually, depending on the keychain type or design, it could be more complicated to program and require more available axis than the headset.

The head of a shock is much more complicated than a headset to machine and program into the CNC control and it also depends on the kind of programming - russian horizontal borring mills used to guide by absolute coordinates as opposed to occidental machines like the Cincinnati Milacrons which used the incremental one - or was it opposite?? - and resulted in easier programming.

Fanuc controls were some of the most problematic at our shop. The russian HBM and the czeck vertical monster lathe were pretty simple to work with and highly effective... when they worked.

Well, that was the technology of some years ago... there could be more efficient controls now but machines are basically the same. Maybe more stable at wider machining speeds, more intelligent and with enhanced memory but it's all at the controls. If you have CAD-CAM capabilities, making a F1 engine block is almost as simple as a keychain. Once drawn, it gets made. It's not THAT simple, but it's not like night and day... depending on your machine's/control's capabilities.


----------



## Pat T. (Jan 18, 2004)

I know all this, I run a 5 axis Cinncinnatti mill everyday. Which was why I asked GG that question...also seems kind of funny all that coming out his mouth about Kings hype when he rides a Cannondale..... talk about a hype generating company. I bet a Knolly isn't worth the cost either, because it is just machined parts? By what you say all bikes should be the same price as Huffy's. Oh and I have CK hubs, because I can recognize the quality.


----------



## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

*Strictly by the numbers here:*

I was curious about comparing the 3 big-named bling-hubs mentioned repeatedly here, as it seemed to me that in building a nice high-end wheelset, you'd not see a HUGE difference cost-wise between the three hubsets, so I checked:

CK ISO hubs:
front - $170
rear - $340
(total = $510)

DT 240s ISO hubs:
front - $150
rear - $290
(total = $440)

Hadley ISO hubs:
front - $120
rear - $260
(total = $380)

What I see is only a $70 difference between the 2 I'm likely to even consider of the three (CK's and DT's (barely)). The cost difference between the Hadley & King is pretty big, but all things considered on a nice bike with a nice wheelset - the $130 doesn't seem like a huge difference.

That said, I've ridden Phil, XTR (new & old), XT (new & old), LX, 105, Ultegra, Bullseye, Spot, Surly, Campy and CK's, and NONE, except the Phil hub (front 36 hole) has come close to lasting like the CK's. The Phil even developed a slight bit of "cone" play that one day I'll get fixed back at Phil, but in the meantime, I'll keep cleaning & relubing my CK's, on which my ISO's have well over 12K of hard mountain miles on. I can take 'em apart in all of 1-2 minutes, clean 'em with WD-40, re-rinse 'em, lube & reassemble. I can do a complete rear overhaul, with the tool, in about 25 minutes. Bearing seal removel, flush, clean, rinse & relube & reassemble in 6-8 minutes, tops. Those bearings are still spinning so smooth, I am amazed.

So, If I were to divide $510 by 12,000 miles (got 'em cheaper as they're old now), it'd be about $.04 per mile - so far. There is NO OTHER part(s) I've owned, including mid-level headsets, that have lasted this long, or been as "cheap". Cranks? Pffft. Brakes? HA! Maybe handlebars..... or a seatpost.

Anyhow, I'd also note that there's a big difference, IME, between just complying with environmental laws (especially nowadays) and setting a higher standard for manufacturing & waste management. Never mind the employee treatment & incentives for bicycle-commuting, the energy efficient design of the facilty and machinery, and frankly, products that ARE worth what they charge (see above).

One example of "green" materials that cost a bit more, and come to mind (as an architect/builder) are those laminated veneer lumber beams, studs, and other manufactured, sustainably harvested timber products. They cost more - because there is "more" needed on the mfr. side of things and in the land management department - and the demand is still relatively low due to relatively lax environmental laws regarding "regular old" timber harvesting. I'll spec / buy these engineered/green types of products anytime I can. Oh - and they are straighter, stronger, more consistent and last longer due to the fairly strict manufacturing tolerances employed and the more controlled "assembly" of the product(s). Sounds very familiar to the CK/Other discussion, I'd say.

My $.02 (or is that $.04?)


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

glenzx said:


> One example of "green" materials that cost a bit more, and come to mind (as an architect/builder) are those laminated veneer lumber beams, studs, and other manufactured, sustainably harvested timber products. They cost more - because there is "more" needed on the mfr. side of things and in the land management department - and the demand is still relatively low due to relatively lax environmental laws regarding "regular old" timber harvesting. I'll spec / buy these engineered/green types of products anytime I can. Oh - and they are straighter, stronger, more consistent and last longer due to the fairly strict manufacturing tolerances employed and the more controlled "assembly" of the product(s). Sounds very familiar to the CK/Other discussion, I'd say.
> 
> My $.02 (or is that $.04?)


Unfortunately CK are not made of lumber and believe me that all Aluminum and Steel mills are the same, enironmentally-wise. Difference in prices there comes from quality (chemical and physical properties) of materials and in metalworks a more efficient and environmentally friendly plant puts out a lower priced product.

Believe me I worked at a Steel mill and producing a higher (lower H2) quality steel was more expensive but the only way to reduce costs was reducing waste and improving machinery efficiency. In that regard, a better plant meant a chaper product.

C'mon... there's nothing wrong accepting CK is the Gucci of components... what's wrong with it??? Those of us who wouldn't want to pay the premium would simply not buy the stuff and that's it.

They're a good product at a high price. Wanna play?, just pay. I still think they make a premium on brand name. There's nothing wrong with it. More or less all bussines are run that way... I would simply not buy the stuff. I just prefer a product with a better value and less bling.

To each his own.


----------



## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

Warp2003 said:


> Unfortunately CK are not made of lumber...


 Really? I guess you missed that huge, sneaky leap I took when I said "One example..." Stupid me - I thought they WERE made of lumber. Doh! 

It was an attempt to illustrate that some green technologies/process engineering systems can be more costly; not an attempt to compare the timber harvesting with aluminum production, but an attempt to show a green process, from beginning to end, that costs more. Are there really no differences between aluminum or steel raw-materials maufacturing? Say between Poland and the USA? _(editAnd I'm just a layman in terms of metallurgy/fabrication/production, but I thought there were significant differences at the semi-fabrication point (this encompasses several industrial processes for the production of rolled products, extrusions, wire, tubes, forgings and castings) so as to produce the different 'types' or alloys, or "purities" of the aluminum... but again, I'm not that well informed. I would imagine that aluminum produced for casting cheap-ish say, lamp parts would differ than that of the aluminum produced to be machined into a spce shuttle structural component..._



 Warp2003 said:


> I just prefer a product with a better value and less bling.


 Did my $.04 / mile not illustrate value? 
_
FWIW, I have black CK hubs - so the "bling" flashy-factor is minimal... though those green ones are SWEET! 

_


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

glenzx said:


> Are there really no differences between aluminum or steel raw-materials maufacturing? Say between Poland and the USA?


Not really. You take a furnace, put some megavolts and scrap in and some steps later you have billets. With Al is more complicated but the basics are more less the same.

Difference is the cost of labor, cost of generating the power needed - in some countries energy is subsidized by the government to boost industry and some taxes are cut - and some other administration/management costs associated. All have to comply certain standards. We used to weld together shapes made from Poland, Mexico and US... is there any difference?? No. All were ASTM A-36.

After I read your edited post - If you buy 6061 Al from either china or the US you ask for quality certificates of the thing to comply with certain standards and that's what you get. Just certain countries don't have some quality capabilities. You can't buy Space Shuttle quality Aluminum plate from China because they just don't have the capabilities. You can bet that would they have the capabilities they would produce it and sell it cheaper than US made.

As I said above, the reason products from Poland, China and some places alike are cheaper because their labor is cheaper and the energy required to move the process is cheaper, they pay less to their executives and their costs estructures are very simple. Maybe even raw materials are cheaper.

Let's take as an example Mexico. We have better technology and more efficient plants that China for steelmaking. We could put out a very cheap product wouldn't it be that a mexican worker makes far more money than a chinese one. Mexican executives make more money than in China and energy is more expensive. All that to put out a product that complies with the very same standard than the chinese one and that pass the same tests. The result?? People buy steel from China and not Mexico.

Again, a better plant/process makes a cheaper product in metal making. Take into account the huge amounts of energy required during these processes and that savings in waste means you have to buy less material to make the same piece or number of pieces. Some wastes you have to pay to get rid off, so managing them "at home" can be way cheaper and the products of recycling processes can be sold so a part of the investment returns or you even make some profits.



glenzx said:


> Did my $.04 / mile not illustrate value?
> FWIW, I have black CK hubs - so the "bling" flashy-factor is minimal... though those green ones are SWEET!


I would prefer the blue or red ones (that become pink with time, unfortunately. Not King's fault though).

BTW... bling is not about flashy color but about fancy components. Magura Martas SL are silver color but they sport a high bling factor.

As for value... Again, I've seen 5 bucks chinese headsets go for years when just properly installed. On hubs, shimanos last very long too and they cost next to nothing. That's the kind of value I'm after.

But, again, to each his own.


----------



## MightySchmoePong (Jan 12, 2004)

*Happens a ton to the old 240's.*

Honestly I've met 3-4 people who have cracked a hub, and I always ask "Hugi?" and they say "Yes, how did you know?" 

I broke mine the same way.

I had a set of King hubs and I couldn't stand them. I didn't like the noise, I didn't like the bearing drag, it was impossible to back-pedal when it was really cold outside (supposed to change to lighter grease in the winter. PITA) and the rear bearings kept working loose even though I followed the king instructions/torque recommendations. I dropped the chain a ton of times on really fast downhills because the drag caused the chain to sag. Improper setup or adjustment? Perhaps, but I rode them for ~1000 miles so I figured I gave them a decent shot.

Personally _for_ _me_ they certainly aren't worth the money. I sold the set to a friend and heven't missed them one bit. I had such outstanding CS from Hugi that I'm willing to keep riding their hubs, and the new 240s hubs are supposed to be better. I've also been eyeing the hadley hubs.

I don't question other people's enthusiam about the hubs though. Their priorities/experiences are different than mine and hey, it's their money 

Dave


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Pat T.� said:


> I know all this, I run a 5 axis Cinncinnatti mill everyday. Which was why I asked GG that question...also seems kind of funny all that coming out his mouth about Kings hype when he rides a Cannondale..... talk about a hype generating company. I bet a Knolly isn't worth the cost either, because it is just machined parts? By what you say all bikes should be the same price as Huffy's. Oh and I have CK hubs, because I can recognize the quality.


Yes and by YOUR interpretation of my logic a Porsche should be worth the same as a Saturn....


There's much more going in a frame (for example) than a simple headset. What if you compare a Hadley and a CK hub. Those are similar quality products at a very distinct price.

I don't have the bucks, to be sincere, but would I have them, I would prolly be riding either Shimanos - I'm on Shimanos now without complains - or Hadleys. Now, tell me Shimano makes not quality products (almost being the industry's benchmark).


----------



## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> Not really. You take a furnace, put some megavolts and scrap in and some steps later you have billets. With Al is more complicated but the basics are more less the same.


 This reminds me of a comment made to a programmer where I work from a fellow scientist:

"It's a simple problem, only a few lines of code"


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

*Pat, you have been marketed.*

With a statement like "Oh and I have CK hubs, because I can recognize the quality" really demonstrates your lack of good sense. At least most King owners recognize that they paid extra for the status and bling. There is no more "quality" in a CK hub than there is a Hadley. Don't blame me, you outed yourself.

Hey! I'm not above it. I have purchased items knowing full well that the price is "altered" because of hype and status. I just ask that some of these CK zealots *admit it*.

I disagree with your Knolly bikes comment. Sure they are expensive but so are BMW and Canfield bikes. Both of which I consider in the same "category" (limited production). I would expect their retail prices to be higher and justly so. A better example would have been just about ANY, mass produced high end road frame. I mean at least you can SEE the technology on an FS frame..

$3000.00 road bike frames just don't add up... neither do $400.00 CK rear hubs..



> By what you say all bikes should be the same price as Huffy's.


You're not grasping the concept. Think a little deeper. I'm saying twenty percent of the price of a CK hub is prestige. Not because it's "greener" or "uses more exotic materials". Face it. It's no big deal.

Where do I come up with 20%? That's the price difference between them and their closet competitor.

It's true. I have 1 Cannondale in my stable.  What "hype" are you referring to?

Congratulations working with a CNC machine. Welcome to the Eighties..


----------



## Ebo (Dec 30, 2003)

Even funnier is all those who took the bait. You know who you are. This subject has been beaten to death.


----------



## neveride (Feb 7, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> I don't really think so. As someone said, most companies do it. You just don't dump things into a river.


Its funny. There's a big controversy in NJ right now (where I live) that a year ago a program was started to declare certain rivers and streams Class A or something like that. What it would mean is these rivers would recieve special treatment, be checked regularly for toxins, pollutants, etc. Companies that were dumping into them would be fined and forced to stop.

The controversey stems from the fact that the group that analyzed which streams/rivers would get the designation, picked those vital to water supply as well as recreation. Their findings were ignored in favor of designating streams picked by politically powerful politicians (several were close to or ran through property of politicians), or not designating several that ran near industrial complexs where the companies donate large amount of money to politicians, as well as several redevelopment companies building new homes etc, that wanted preferential treatment, and those streams getting the designation near the sites would have added difficulties.

Companies still pollute. It boggles my mind that every stream/river wouldn't get the designation, let alone the corruption going on at the state level, but NJ has basically said it is okay to pollute certain rivers and streams. I take my kayak out in certain places (such as around staten island) and see the petro chemical companies and what the water and shore line looks like. These companies are not clean. There is dumping going on, and depending on where you are, a lot of it is obvious.

So not all companies are green. I'd say many aren't even remotely close to being "green". Sure, its a marketing thing for King, but if it costs some extra bucks to pay for that marketing but they really are green, more power to them.


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

With all due respect Glen, you purchased your hubs long before the CK price hike I'm referring to..and longevity was never an issue. 

*For the record:*

Chris King SS Disc rear hub $409.99
Hadley SS Disc rear hub *$279.99*

That IS a shameful price discrepancy IMO. I'm not too exited about the *$135.00 * CK disassembly tool you speak of either..


----------



## Pat T. (Jan 18, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> Yes and by YOUR interpretation of my logic a Porsche should be worth the same as a Saturn....
> 
> Now, tell me Shimano makes not quality products (almost being the industry's benchmark).


"By what you say all bikes should be the same price as Huffy's"

That wasn't directed at you, and I won't even get into shimano....which I have none on my bike..... that's a personal thing though.


----------



## Pat T. (Jan 18, 2004)

"Pat, you have been marketed"

No

"With a statement like "Oh and I have CK hubs, because I can recognize the quality" really demonstrates your lack of good sense. At least most King owners recognize that they paid extra for the status and bling. There is no more "quality" in a CK hub than there is a Hadley. Don't blame me, you outed yourself."

Have you ever manufactured a part ever??? Or do you just sit behind a desk and make stupid comments? Who says you have extra status from a bike part? If someone buys a part for that reason they're a dumba$$. If you actually knew me you would never say I did not have good sense.

"Hey! I'm not above it. I have purchased items knowing full well that the price is "altered" because of hype and status. I just ask that some of these CK zealots admit it."

Well I am far from a zelot since I don't buy parts for hype and status, I buy them because they don't break, if it makes you happy I don't have any CK parts on my current bike. Though I still own CK parts, and I stand behind what I said because I actually know what I am talking about.

"I disagree with your Knolly bikes comment. Sure they are expensive but so are BMW and Canfield bikes. Both of which I consider in the same "category" (limited production). I would expect their retail prices to be higher and justly so. A better example would have been just about ANY, mass produced high end road frame. I mean at least you can SEE the technology on an FS frame.. 

$3000.00 road bike frames just don't add up... neither do $400.00 CK rear hubs.."

And that's your opinion, some people don't see it that way, you think Lance would want to ride the tour on a $200 frame? No he is going to get the best that he can, and he isn't getting it for the bling factor either.

"You're not grasping the concept. Think a little deeper. I'm saying twenty percent of the price of a CK hub is prestige. Not because it's "greener" or "uses more exotic materials". Face it. It's no big deal. Where do I come up with 20%? That's the price difference between them and their closet competitor."

You say it is prestige, others say it is a great product, life moves on. If people will pay the price then let them, it isn't coming out of your pocket.

"It's true. I have 1 Cannondale in my stable.  What "hype" are you referring to?"

So you know all about the CK pretige, bling, status, yadda yadda.... but nothing about Cannondale, interesting.

"Congratulations working with a CNC machine. Welcome to the Eighties.."

Huh?


----------



## TJ. (Jan 12, 2004)

*Your wrong.*



GGAllen said:


> *Pat, you have been marketed.*
> 
> With a statement like "Oh and I have CK hubs, because I can recognize the quality" really demonstrates your lack of good sense. At least most King owners recognize that they paid extra for the status and bling. There is no more "quality" in a CK hub than there is a Hadley. Don't blame me, you outed yourself.
> 
> ...


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Pat T.? said:


> "Congratulations working with a CNC machine. Welcome to the Eighties.."
> 
> Huh?


GG... with all due respect, while I agree with your take on CK "blinged" status, this statement of yours is way off. CNC Machines maybe came in the eighties, but you can bet and arm and a leg that those machines are no longer used and that the only component equal to those ones are the nuts holding the machine to the foundation. Maybe not even that.

As I said, our shop had many types of machines. Mazak were more updated and very reliable, while you wouldn't like to operate a Fanuc controlled machined.

Nowadays, CAD-CAM is the thing. Unfortunately, as complicated as those machines are, they still use the same tool to do the job as one hundred years ago.

Lidar.... Also, with all due respect, making steel of a higher grade requiring a "few lines of code"... it's that simple once you have the know-how.

Example Case: 
Do you know what's required to do a higher quality (low hydrogen) steel pipe at the pipe-mill I worked at???

Just send the ladle to a vacuum proofed chamber and make vacuum. Vacuum is made by pushing steam thru some nozzles (vena contracta effect). Keep it there for a while and send the ladle back to the Continous Casting Machine. The entire vaccum treatment plant is not worth of more than 50 million dollars for a 130 ton ladle. That's pretty much peanuts for a pipe-mill selling several thousands of tonnes a year or finished pipes.

Furthermore, making several grades of steel is achieved by varying simple parameters like temp, time and alloys with the same equipment.

Actually, steel making equipment and process providers make a lot of money based in know-how, more than the actual costs involved.

Do you really think there's a lot of know-how difference between a Hadley and a CK hub?? I don't think so.

Given that both Hadley and CK make their hubs in first-world countries, King has a lot more efficient plant, and technologies and materials are very similar for both, what makes the price difference between a CK and a Hadley??? Shouldn't be King hubs cheaper due to the more efficient plant???

Face it, people pay more for the CK name... and it's not a bad thing. Ferrari and Prosches are both top-notch machines and track times show the Porsches can be faster than a Ferrari depending on the track... so what makes a Ferrari more expensive than a Prosche?? Yes, the brand name. And people don't get ashamed as saying they paid mega-bucks for a car that can get its arse whooped by a Prosche... simply because Prosches don't have that bling and soul a Ferrari have.

Again, there's nothing wrong with it. CK is the Ferrari of bike parts. There a lot of brand perception and quality associated to it. There might be better or equal components, but CK have that "bling" factor some people lust for. And that's fine, there should be that level of choice.


----------



## carl1266 (May 17, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> Not really. You take a furnace, put some megavolts and scrap in and some steps later you have billets. ....


Man, you don't know a thing about steel. There are uge differences in different steels and neither the US nor Poland are up to date in their production processes and technologies.


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

carl1266 said:


> Man, you don't know a thing about steel. There are uge differences in different steels and neither the US nor Poland are up to date in their production processes and technologies.


Whatever.... if you wanna take it that literally.

But you're right on the US/Poland thing. Swedish and Germans are the kings of steel. I've worked with German guys... they're plain amazing.


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

Pat T.? said:


> So you know all about the CK pretige, bling, status, yadda yadda.... but nothing about Cannondale, interesting.


Do you actually read my post or just the first few words? I'll ask it again since you missed it the first time. What hype are you talking about. Be specific, don't just sling words around.



> If people will pay the price then let them, it isn't coming out of your pocket.


Pat, again, I couldn't care less what people spend their money on. Just admit where you money is going.



> Well I am far from a zelot (sic) since I don't buy parts for hype and status, I buy them because they don't break..


A Zealot is defined as a fanatically committed person, free from using logic. Pat you clearly fall into this category. FYI, I have a CK hub in the garage (purchased before the price hike, of course).



> Have you ever manufactured a part ever??? Or do you just sit behind a desk and make stupid comments? Who says you have extra status from a bike part? If someone buys a part for that reason they're a dumba$$. If you actually knew me you would never say I did not have good sense.


I might say you use poor grammar.  Seriously though, no disrespect to your field of expertise, but designing and programming with Autocad and pressing the start button on a high dollar CNC machine is not terribly difficult (depending.. certainly not for a headset cup or hub shell). Also, I don't think anyone is a dumbass for buying anything. I'm no better than anyone else. Truth is you and I are probably similar in our passion for biking and cool parts. Difference is I admit it when I'm being fleeced.



> ...and I stand behind what I said because I actually know what I am talking about.


I would think someone so "knowledgeable" about the intricacies of CNC manufacturing would also have the sense to know there is NO difference (strengh/performance) in a CK hub and a Hadley hub.

Perhaps it's time you start being honest with yourself..


----------



## carl1266 (May 17, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> Whatever.... if you wanna take it that literally.
> 
> But you're right on the US/Poland thing. Swedish and Germans are the kings of steel. I've worked with German guys... they're plain amazing.


Yes we are .


----------



## Broussard (Mar 17, 2005)

*Knowledge - who needs it?*



Rivet said:


> Not to belabor the point but again, everybody in manufacturing has to do these things. Coming from a company where the EPA and OSHA were crawling up our azz regularly I'm very familiar with this topic. In this day and age if you so much as think of dumping something in back of the shop the EPA will shut the whole comapny down. The fact that King does this on their own rather than sub-contract like many companies seems irrelevent to me, it's still getting done. Heck, it's probably cheaper for King to handle this on their own. Headset price discount? Also I doubt they do their own Anodizing, this along with plating are two very nasty processes.


It's interesting to see people weighing in with such strong opinions when they've not
made the tiniest little effort to know what they are talking about. Whatever the merits
of your argument, you shouldn't be saying "everybody has to do these things" when 
you don't even know what King is doing. Here's a hint - 
Type the name of the company and add ".com" then read what it says. Generally, this
should be done BEFORE arguing about the topic.

ZB


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> ..CNC Machines maybe came in the eighties...


I was more referring to the influx of CNC MTB parts in the late Eighties, early Nineties. But thanks for the correction anyway.


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

carl1266 said:


> Yes we are .


LOL !!!

By any stretch of luck do you know Gunther Kaiser??? Awesome guy. He used to work for SMS Demag some years back. Maybe he's retired now.


----------



## Boon Fly (Mar 3, 2004)

*You can't argue with that...*



glenzx said:


> I was curious about comparing the 3 big-named bling-hubs mentioned repeatedly here, as it seemed to me that in building a nice high-end wheelset, you'd not see a HUGE difference cost-wise between the three hubsets, so I checked:
> 
> CK ISO hubs:
> front - $170
> ...


...well people are but his points are overwhelming in favor of CK components. Two things I'd like to point out here:

One, all this talk of perception pricing as a "basic principle of commerce" is a total farce. Who decided that? That's a total joke IMO. Yes there are brands that are able to cash in on brand-name equity but that's only AFTER they have been producing legitimate goods over the long-haul. As anyone who really knows sales and marketing will tell you you better have a legitimate product and you better cater to the most discerning customers at all times - you can't fool the market over the long haul, it's just not possible.

Second, isn't it ironic that right now over on the Titus board the biggest drama is that some Titus parts/frames will now be produced overseas or actually have been for awhile now. People are livid over there! (Personally I don't care one bit.) The argument is that now the quality of their bikes will undoubtedly go down and that it's just 'wrong' to take business overseas like that. And yet here we are debating the merit of why CK is more expensive and if it's worth it. Here they are in the US, presumably using the finest environmental standards known to the industry and they actually want to pay a living wage to their hard working employees and people are complaining that they are a 'hype' driven company.


----------



## carl1266 (May 17, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> LOL !!!
> 
> By any stretch of luck do you know Gunther Kaiser??? Awesome guy. He used to work for SMS Demag some years back. Maybe he's retired now.


Sorry, I don't. I just have an extended family background when it comes to steel. My brother is running a converter in Germany. So I know a thing or two myself and have great resources.


----------



## Pat T. (Jan 18, 2004)

I did admit I have purchased the product, but that was not good enough for you. You still call me a zealot, even though I told you why I purchased the product, before the price hike which I left out since it is irrelevant. The hype I was referring to, the lefty fork, promising a product and then not delivering, charging a lot for poor craftsmanship they did not get the “crackenfail” name for nothing (although they have an outstanding warranty department), we won't even get into the motorcycles and quads. Having manufactured high quality parts for the last 20 years and being one of the first in my shop to get my FAA certification for self inspection (meaning we don’t have to send parts through QA anymore) I think I have the ability to see the difference in a good machined part and a very good machined part. Clearly we have very different opinions about Kings; we'll leave it at that. I know where my money goes and in reality I don't have to explain to you or anyone else why I spent it on said product. If I want to buy Chris King parts I will, if I don't that's fine too. BTW you have not once stated your qualifications. And since you brought up the definition of zealot, maybe you should count how many posts you have made on this one subject.....that's seems closer to a zealot than just buying a bike part.


----------



## catch22 (Apr 30, 2004)

*Is Hope worth considering?*

Hello hub experts, I just wanted to get your thoughts on Hope Bulb hubs. I've been considering getting a new wheelset built up and I've seen a lot of people on here raving about them. For whatever reason they haven't been mentioned yet in this thread, just the Kings, Hadleys, and DT's. Do they really fall far below the other 3 (I know costwise for $250 a set they do). Not trying to add fuel to the fire or anything, just hoping to get an honest opinion from some folks that seem to be knowledgeable on the subject. If I do the build it will be on a budget so cost is a big factor, just don't want to drop the money on crappy hubs. Thanks!


----------



## Pat T. (Jan 18, 2004)

I would check the reviews, I've never used them but I know people who have and liked them.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

Pat T.? said:


> I did admit I have purchased the product


Pat, frikkin' smarten up. Stop making up your own mind and deciding what you want to buy. Listen to the guys here who are the self-proclaimed Setters of Our Standards and you'll feel much better when you know they're happy.

If they open up a site called "What we want you to Do Review" I'll register in a flash. Heck then I can just sit back and drink (their choice of) beer and they can tell me what's the best bread for supper.


----------



## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

catch22 said:


> Hello hub experts, I just wanted to get your thoughts on Hope Bulb hubs.


 I run Kings on my Id and got Hopes for my Turner. I love em! They engage nicely, seem fairly light and do the job. I like having a steel body over the King aluminums since last time I went to take off the cassette, it was an ordeal getting the cassette off due to it gouging the body.

Unfortunately, I have only used the Hopes a few months so I have no idea what their long term longevity is.


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

Alright Pat...and the rest of the MCM crew. Reasonable people must agree to disagree.

You're wrong about the Lefty though....  I would ask you to justify your comments by quoting the "promise" from Cannondale and pinpointing the "failure to deliver". But I'll pass in respect to this (already butchered) thread.

Thanks for the laughs though. Hope we can do it again sometime. 

I've got some nice things to say about Magura, perhaps I should start a new thread over in Brake Time...


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> Pat, frikkin' smarten up. Stop making up your own mind and deciding what you want to buy. Listen to the guys here who are the self-proclaimed Setters of Our Standards and you'll feel much better when you know they're happy.
> 
> If they open up a site called "What we want you to Do Review" I'll register in a flash. Heck then I can just sit back and drink (their choice of) beer and they can tell me what's the best bread for supper.


_*I've read comprehension is the first thing to go with age.. * _ Mike, you know darn well that's not the point I was trying to make. Buy all means, buy what you wish. I've never told anyone here what to buy. Only to acknowledge where their money is going.

Simple concept, really. Revert back to this post if the Alzheimer's kicks in again.


----------



## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Pat T.� said:


> I know all this, I run a 5 axis Cinncinnatti mill everyday. Which was why I asked GG that question...also seems kind of funny all that coming out his mouth about Kings hype when he rides a Cannondale..... talk about a hype generating company. I bet a Knolly isn't worth the cost either, because it is just machined parts? By what you say all bikes should be the same price as Huffy's. Oh and I have CK hubs, because I can recognize the quality.


Pat, seriously, no disrespect but in the machine shop of my last company the CNC guys were no longer machinist, they simply converted my Solidworks stuff to Matercam, did the setup, dropped the material in and hit go. Do you still do manual programming? We had one real machinist running the show and three flunkies (seriously, these guys were idiots) crashing tool heads. They couldn't even run the old engine lathe.


----------



## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

singletrack said:


> King stuff sure is purdy, but that's where it ends.


 Well, ever ride a highly technical section that requires lots of subltel pedal movement to finess yourself around? With the standard rear hubs that engage every 20degrees or so its frustrating at time. King's instant engagement is far better in those situations. So there is a very real world reason that King is superior. For some people, being able to improve your control is worth a few bucks. I know for that reason alone I'd buy king. Toss in the longevity, weight, craftsmanship, american made status, and ethics of the company and they are a bargain.


----------



## Pat T. (Jan 18, 2004)

We do both, but we use Catia V5 for modeling and simulation, and everything else they can tack on to that software. We're hoping to step up to some smaller 9 axis machines, the bed on my machine is about 500"x90" and I run about 1200 ipm and I can fit up to 7 tooling fixtures on at once. With the smaller machines we can worry less about programming and run more parts faster with a single fixture or flat set up.... down side is we'll probably be running two machines at once. No disrespect at all, at least you know what I am talking about.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

GGAllen said:


> I've never told anyone here what to buy. Only to acknowledge where their money is going. Simple concept, really.


What's the affliction that's resulting in your in your pressing need for smug arrogance?


----------



## Pat T. (Jan 18, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> What's the affliction that's resulting in your in your pressing need for smug arrogance?


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Wasatch Walt said:


> Jim,
> 
> as usual you are a nothing more than a pain in everyone's butt. You "mirror" posts of other people. Did you get a job yet, I mean beyond the LBS?
> 
> ...


That's not a very effective way to respond to someone if you want to be taken seriously.

BTW, he's not being a pain in my butt (but maybe that's because I agree with him). Speak for yourself, not for me (I include myself in "everyone").

What is the point of putting down someone for working an LBS job?? You need to be a well paid white collar profesional to have a valid opinion on bikes? And what makes it a straight line carrer path if he has not even been working at it as long as you did?

Yes, I've seen him get somewhat offensive on these boards, and it is uncalled for, but he is not doing so in this post, and he often has good info. No sense dragging stuff from other threads into this one.


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

Pat T.? said:


> *I have the ability to see the difference in a good machined part and a very good machined part.*


Man, talk about arrogance.. Since you are able to tell the "quality" of something just by looking at it, I'm curious what you think about these.

Granted, the drive shell is made from paltry Titanium and not the nice soft aluminum stuff King uses, but try to be objective...


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> What's the affliction that's resulting in your in your pressing need for smug arrogance?


My affliction? Mike, you continually and deliberately misquote me, twist my words and generally ignore logic from not only me but other posters (including fellow MCM members) on this thread. I have to assume you are either not reading my posts or simply acting juvenile. Sorry if that offends you. 

BTW. It's not only this thread. Your comments and reasoning *against* using a torque wrench over on the tooltime forum is equally as enlightning. FYI. It is possible to _overtighten_ a fastener without breaking it. Just because "nothing's ever fallen off" doesn't mean you don't need a torque wrench. That's just silly.  

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=113597


----------



## Brown_Teeth (Jan 15, 2004)

Strange I never installed a rubber anything with my King and its been on 5 frames and still runs free and I used a simple wood vise to install every time. So as I see it its a killer HS but then again I did 3 frame swaps on a FSA pig pro at half the price and its going strong. Seems its all a question of $ and what you press them into, best rides to all!


----------



## the Inbred (Jan 13, 2004)

is that the ti bolt setup?


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

Doug said:


> Well, ever ride a highly technical section that requires lots of subltel pedal movement to finess yourself around? With the standard rear hubs that engage every 20degrees or so its frustrating at time. King's instant engagement is far better in those situations. So there is a very real world reason that King is superior. For some people, being able to improve your control is worth a few bucks. I know for that reason alone I'd buy king. Toss in the longevity, weight, craftsmanship, american made status, and ethics of the company and they are a *bargain*.


You raise great points, Doug. However, taking into account the performance attributes you most desire, the Hadley clearly fits your needs better with its _*notably quicker * _ 108pt. engagement.. and it's made in California, USA.

..and if you think the current price of CK hubs is a "bargain", Heck! the Hadleys are practically FREE!!


----------



## Pat T. (Jan 18, 2004)

GGAllen said:


> Man, talk about arrogance.. Since you are able to tell the "quality" of something just by looking at it, I'm curious what you think about these.
> 
> Granted, the drive shell is made from paltry Titanium and not the nice soft aluminum stuff King uses, but try to be objective...


It's not arrogance it is called training, something you do NOT have, at least in this case. I don't care about the Hadley hub, and for that matter I don't care about you either, it WAS fun. And how nice of you to take part of what I said and throw it back at me....but yet you told my cousin Mike : "My affliction? Mike, you continually and deliberately misquote me, twist my words and generally ignore logic from not only me but other posters on this thread. I have to assume you are either not reading my posts or simply acting juvenile. Sorry if that offends you." Funny you seem to be doing the exact same thing, but it is only ok for you to do so? I don't know what you are trying to prove, we both have admitted to spending money on King hubs..BFD I do not think they are overpriced, you do.... so I am supposed change my opinion just because you say so? Don't think so. Get over yourself, I am going to buy what I want, not because you told me to buy it, or you told me not too because YOU thought it was overpriced. Just because you or someone else thinks it is logical that these parts are overpriced does not mean we have to.


----------



## GGAllen (Jul 18, 2004)

Pat T.? said:


> It's not arrogance it is called training, something you do NOT have, at least in this case. I don't care about the Hadley hub, and for that matter I don't care about you either.


Now that's immature. Do you really talk to people that way? You must be a joy to work with.

I never asked you to care about me and I never asked you to care about Hadley hubs. Sheesh.

First you tell us (over and over) how much of an expert you are, then you fly off the handle when queried. What gives? I for one would like to see a demonstration of your expertise through the above pictures. If that is too much for you to handle then fine. I guess we'll just "take your word for it".



> ..but yet you told my cousin Mike..


 He's your cousin? Funny, You stated elsewhere, and I quote: "*In early 99' I found MTBR.com surfin the web. That's how I got to know Mike T.* Hmm.


----------



## S-Works (Dec 30, 2003)

drumstix said:


> For what its worth, a DT FR rear hub is retailed at only $35.00 less than a King rear hub.


I think that's a case a DT gravy training on King. DT sees their hubs as being very close in quality to King, so they price them a little below to King to get more $$ per hub sale.

Also, I think King made a conscious decision with their whole "green" manufacturing. So to use that as a reason for increased costs, may or may not be true, but it's a choice they made knowing alot of us would buy into that hook and pay the extra flow for their product.


----------



## Pat T. (Jan 18, 2004)

If you knew anything you would know that Mike and I are friends, he started calling me his cousin a long time ago, it isn't that big of a deal. I get along with my crew just fine, don't know what that has to do with this at all. I'm done with this thread since all you seem to want to do is stir the pot, I answered all your questions, but yet you still keep at it. I am not going to make a judgement on the hub since I have never even looked at one. Only an idiot would make a decision like that from a picture.


----------



## Maniac (Dec 30, 2003)

*King's "green-ness"*

One thing I learned from their site was they brought the anodization process in-house, which most component makers don't do. If you take into account the extra costs for raw materials, engineering and lab, and waste treatment there is a reason they could be charging more for their products (not $135 more though). Plus, anodizing is a nasty process, so a company as committed to the environment as King probably is doing it right to minimize waste and costs.


----------



## SSPIN (Sep 21, 2004)

Is that scuff washer necessary?


----------



## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

*Re: Shimano small parts*



Wasatch Walt said:


> Have you ever tried to get small parts from Shimano? You are just told to buy the whole thing.


I'm not a Shimano fan, but I was able to buy small parts for the Shimano SPD 424 pedals (ligher than the 545).

I lost the plastic cap, screw & spring that holds the cage to the pedal body (with the yellow decal in the photo below).

Looked up the part number on the service guide, and my LBS was able to order it. I had it in about a week.


----------



## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

singletrack said:


> In my FSA headset, if I ever need a cart bearing (which doesn't look like it'll ever happen) I can remove them from the cups myself by hand and go down the street to Mesa Bearing and buy a replacement for $10.


I have an FSA Orbit XL (now in my wife's bike) which FSA hasn't been able to supply me with the correct size bearing. They keep sending the wrong size. Maybe they changed size somewhere in the model?

Guess I'll have to head to a local industrial bearing supplier to get replacements.


----------



## Acme54321 (Oct 8, 2003)

SSPIN said:


> Is that scuff washer necessary?


Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. I lost mine when I swapped frames. Ever since there has been this creaking comming from my headtube/steertube/fork. One of my Co-workers told me that he was missing a scuff washer once and his creaked like mad, and he couldn't figure out why. Until he got a new scuff washer. Mine came in today (along with a new Pink headset  but I haven't had the chance to ride it yet but hopefully that fixes the problem.

Then again, I've seen other bikes without them and it doesn't make a difference.


----------



## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

GGAllen said:


> With all due respect Glen, you purchased your hubs long before the CK price hike I'm referring to..and longevity was never an issue.
> 
> *For the record:*
> 
> ...


Or, *$379.00*

Everything seems to cost more now. Housing? makes this whole bike-parts bling/inflation thing seem silly!

Doh! Why do I keep adding fuel to the fire....

FWIW, I bought my CK tool for $70 and would gladly ship it to friends that needed it, as long as they promptly shipped it back.


----------



## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

carl1266 said:


> Man, you don't know a thing about steel. There are uge differences in different steels and neither the US nor Poland are up to date in their production processes and technologies.


 I wasn't even gonna say anything, nevermind the associated costs of "waste disposal" & environmental stewardship in different parts of the world. German engineering, well, what else need be said? Speaking of Hubs and Germany, my next hubset will likely be the Tune King?Kong (?) ISO set-up, also with a Ti cassette carrier and FREAKIN' LIGHT!


----------



## carbnjunkie (Aug 21, 2003)

*man...*

Just kill this thread already......


----------

