# Long Chainstays on E-MTBs: Why?



## westernmtb (Dec 19, 2018)

trek powerfly 477mm
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...n/powerfly-fs-7-plus/p/23259/?colorCode=black

470mm on giant trance e
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/trance-eplus-2-pro

457mm on focus
https://www.focus-bikes.com/us_en/43249-jam-plus-pro

444mm on motobecane
Motobecane USA Full Suspension eBikes

Is this to compensate for the higher speeds of e-bikes? I've yet to read an explanation.


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## JackWare (Aug 8, 2016)

I'm guessing it's because of the motor's physical size forcing the rear triangle further back.

The Bosch motors as an example are very bulky and as motors get smaller I think we'll see bikes with shorter RCs. An example of this is the new Lapierre eZesty that has 435mm chainstays.

Also the technique for climbing is different and ideally you stay seated to keep the back wheel weighted, so longer chainstays help with with the bike's balance while climbing.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Typically for the added torque that the motor allows and more straight line stability.


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## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

Because the ebikes wheelie on climbs even with long chain stays. Put real short stays and it won’t climb as you won’t be able to keep front end down.


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## westernmtb (Dec 19, 2018)

if the longer chain stays add more stability because of higher speeds, shouldn't racers prefer long chain stays? That's exactly the point made by Jeff.brines on vitalmtb forum.

I don't want to get too far adrift, but are "too long" chain stays actually the correct design? At least if you want certain handling traits or ride characteristics such as the ability to ride fast overall, climb fast and max out comfort?

I'm confused as to why 42 or 43 cm chain stays are universal instead of one design choice among many (except on e-mtb's).

https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/The-Hub,2/The-Internet-Was-Wrong-Short-Chainstays-Suck,9344

_From a race results perspective, one needs to go no further than Aaron Gwin's first season on Specialized to see what a shorter rear end can do for one of the fastest guys on the planet (he had a bad season until they lengthened the rear end). Minnaar famously had a few breakout races on the now-legendary (yeah, I said it) XXL V10 (with ghastly long 17.75" stays). Even Sam Hill has lengthened his Nukeproof DH bike's rear end to get more weight on the front tire.

This post is meant as a call out for manufacturers to start recognizing this need for longer rear ends to compliment the longer front end. Simply, longer CS measurements are needed to balance the bike.

_


TNTE3 said:


> Because the ebikes wheelie on climbs even with long chain stays. Put real short stays and it won't climb as you won't be able to keep front end down.


I have a fair bit of ride time on e-mtb's and didn't find this to be a problem in the slightest. E-mtb's are very heavy. If anything the downtube battery and mid drive motor make it far more difficult to lift the front wheel or get air under any circumstances.


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## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

I have a few ebikes, my favorite is a 180 travel and it has 464mm chain stays, in high power mode climbing it wheelies bad!! I have to climb with dropper half down to lower my weight and still lofts front wheel every pedal stroke. Even with rear shock in climb mode. Some of the ratings on it claim it to not be a good climber due to shorter chain stays in comparison to some ebikes in 470+ range. 
But to answer your question short stays add to nimble handling, you can run short stays with slack head tube and gain great stability at speeds and still have a quick handling bike in comparison to slack bike with long stays. But personally i am not comfortable at speeds over 50mph on a bike with shorter then 450mm chain stays. But none of my trails are you capable or reaching 50mph, so i like the ebike with 450-460mm stays. Bike just quicker and more agile in the tight sections. But my 450mm chain stay bike won’t climb what my 464mm will. 
with ebike you have 70-90kn of tq added to your human ability. Combine that with 30x48 gearing and on steep slope one good pedal stroke and your looping out.
For the rough steep climbs i wish my ebike had 480-485mm stays, but i think i would hate it everywhere but climbing. 
So it’s def a balance act of head tube angle and chainstay length to reach the ultimate compromise. 
But i don’t think you ever see a 70-90kn TQ ebike with less then 450mm chain stays unless it’s under 150mm travel. 
I think you find most looking for a sub 150mm travel ebike are looking for a quick handling low travel bike for tight flow type trails and not steep fast chunky trails. 
Right now seems 460-470 is the sweet spot for current heavy hitters in enduro ebikes with 150+ travel. 
I think by end of 2019 it’s gonna be hard to find an enduro ebike less then 160 travel. 
Everything be 180+
There a big number of duel crown ebikes gonna make way in 2020 and there all 460+ chain stays


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

JackWare said:


> I'm guessing it's because of the motor's physical size forcing the rear triangle further back.
> 
> The Bosch motors as an example are very bulky and as motors get smaller I think we'll see bikes with shorter RCs. An example of this is the new Lapierre eZesty that has 435mm chainstays.
> 
> Also the technique for climbing is different and ideally you stay seated to keep the back wheel weighted, so longer chainstays help with with the bike's balance while climbing.


I think that it's mostly just the choice of motor. Bikes with a Yamaha motor always have long chainstars, Bosch a little less long, and Shimano normal geometry. Then the marketing department steps in and tells us the great benefits of the long chainstays.

My Haibike has the Yamaha motor with 480mm chain stays and climbs like a goat, but lifting the front for a small drop is tricky. The long chainstays are probably best for shortening the learning curve on torque control while climbing, but now that I'm used to the bike I'm beginning to think that they are a disadvantage.

Probably the Fezzari combination of short chainstay and steep seat angle is best.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

westernmtb said:


> if the longer chain stays add more stability because of higher speeds, shouldn't racers prefer long chain stays? That's exactly the point made by Jeff.brines on vitalmtb forum.
> 
> I don't want to get too far adrift, but are "too long" chain stays actually the correct design? At least if you want certain handling traits or ride characteristics such as the ability to ride fast overall, climb fast and max out comfort?
> 
> ...


Racers aren't riding ebikes.


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## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

Some are, specially now that a few ebike makers are starting to pay contingency money!!


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## madog99 (Jun 5, 2009)

Pivot Shuttle and Norco Sight VLT have fairly short chain stays. (437-440)


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## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

Pivot shuttle is 140 travel. And Norco is 150. And i think the Norco is the only ebike supporting 150 travel and under 450mm stays. 
VLT1 and Shuttle are super fun bikes bellow 30mph. They ride very similar in many ways i like them both a lot for tight single track.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

False.

Bikes wheelie because the rider isn't far enough forward.

Shorter chainstays make it easier to get the front end up, so in a sense you're right, longer chainstays are better for folks who don't know how to ride 

As to the value of long chainstays on DH bikes, let's be serious, there are few, very few people who are buying downhill ebikes, so let's chalk that discussion up to a straw man and move on.

I wouldn't look twice at a bike with over a 435mm chainstay, but I would look twice at a bike with under a 430mm chainstay.



TNTE3 said:


> Because the ebikes wheelie on climbs even with long chain stays. Put real short stays and it won't climb as you won't be able to keep front end down.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

TNTE3 said:


> VLT1 and Shuttle are super fun bikes bellow 30mph.


What? I should hope so! Unless you're regularly shuttling the old Kamikaze course, 30mph is basically never going to happen on a mountain bike.

Back on topic: Long chainstays aren't going to kill you on an e-bike. If you want super snappy and playful you should be looking elsewhere anyway, right? For doing a long-ass day in the saddle and covering a ton of miles/feet, long stays are going to give you more than they take away unless you're a very rare breed of stud.

-Walt


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## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

it appears you haven’t spent much time on an ebike. If i lean forward anymore i spin, if i leave my seat in full leg extension height it wheelie. Where not talking about small enclines. 
I climb trails i can’t climb on a clock work bike. My heart rate is 160’s in high power or mid power. All i have to do is lift my head to look up trail and i loop out with 464mm stays. My bike is 180m travel, 65 deg head angle, 464mm stays and 73 deg seat tube. 
Stating i don’t really know how to ride that’s why i wheelie is quite unsupported as you have never ridden with me or have any inclination of my skills on a bike. The bike I’m riding the first model had 12mm shorter stays and it didn’t climb well at all and was to light on front at speed lacked front end traction. 
Downieville, Georgetown, mammoth, Northstar, my DH runs on my ebike are in top 5% on single crown ebike. Mammoth Kami i was in top 15 times on a single crown ebike. That should speak a little to my ability on a bike. 
Look at how many duel crown ebikes are slated to hit market by 2020. 
I’f no one was DH running ebikes there wouldn’t be need for DC Ebikes. Or a large selection of 160+ travel ebikes. 
Short chain stays are super fun and agile on tight trails, but you won’t see many with 160+ travel if any by 2020
Actually i can’t think of any now that are over 150 travel. 
When you can have a 180 travel bike that climbs better then a 18lb gravel bike why not have big travel enduro bike??


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## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

Walt said:


> What? I should hope so! Unless you're regularly shuttling the old Kamikaze course, 30mph is basically never going to happen on a mountain bike.
> 
> Back on topic: Long chainstays aren't going to kill you on an e-bike. If you want super snappy and playful you should be looking elsewhere anyway, right? For doing a long-ass day in the saddle and covering a ton of miles/feet, long stays are going to give you more than they take away unless you're a very rare breed of stud.
> 
> -Walt


You got me thinking so i went back through my mammoth kami enduro race, northstar, downyville, Georgetown, A town, Nevada city. 
Every one of them i broke 40mph 1 or more times, 35mph 6 or more times, 30mph 20 or more times. 
That would clear up why i really don't like anything under 450mm chains stays. 
Thanks for that. I haven't looked at that before. I've only pay attention to average speeds. 
I've always considered average speed the key to winning and peak speeds never mattered. 
But your question raised a red flag, every big speed section ended in hard shut down, so basically drifting into sharp coroner from high speed explains why I'm partial to longer stays give up the playful short stay bikes. The picture is northstar. It wouldn't load more then one photo guess my phone to slow.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

At my leg length the three degree increase in seat angle of the Fezzari Wire Peak relative to my Hiabike SDURO would move my seat center 30 mm forward. Comparing the chainstay length of the two bikes, 480 vs 435, there’s only a 15 mm difference in my seated CG relative to the rear axle. So I doubt that the shorter chainstay of the Fezzari or a similar Pivot Shuttle with a steeper seat angle would turn me into a wheelie monster. If I needed to move the seat back on the rails I might be worried, but typically to get a bike to fit I need seat forward, which probably means that a bike with modern long and low geometry would be about the same climbing as the beast I’m now riding.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I thought long chainstays on emtbs was because certain ebikes were designed with non-athletic types in mind, the types that are looking for cruisers rather than Enduro machines.

That "short chainstays sucks" thread is criticizing the combination of demand for slacker and longer with demand for short chainstays. They're implying short CS suck in such a case, that longer front ends are better with longer chainstays.


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## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

Saying one sucks is a bit bias, i really think depending on what and how you ride determine more what’s best for your needs. What I’m always riding is chunky, fast and technical, lots of tight turns and trees, so it’s tricky to get into the corners at speed. 
I really like playing on my shuttle but it just to unsettled at speed and bigger chunk for my taste, my Fantic is bulldozer and feels a lot like evil Wreck still turns good at speed little heavy in slow turns but soon as it gets fast the bike really comes to life. I’m much more comfortable pushing my limits in slower speed corners so i take the high speed stability to minimize the risk of high speed getoffs!
Plus the longer chain stays climb chunk and steep better.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

If you want a seriously silly discussion, this is the best forum for it 

Ebikes are what they are, if you don’t like one, then don’t ride it, but it’s no joke that long chainstays make a bike handle slow and ponderous, even my wife the novice can tell the difference.

... and Walt, seriously, you know this as well as anyone, don’t play into this garbage, seek the higher ground, I expect that you would sooner ride an e-cargo bike than a trail bike with 450mm chain-stays.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I’ll be your huckleberry. Mine are 456? Fastest I’ve ever been downhill. Manuals-yes, scrubs-yes. And all under 10k😂


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Shorter and more playful, no doubt. Speed, climbing ability and stability on an ebike, I’ll take the longer stays. Nobody’s gonna bunny hop a 12” log (unless you’re Danny McKaskill) on an emtb anyways. No doubt your Pivot is badass, but to claim any other geometry is useless is foolish.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> ... and Walt, seriously, you know this as well as anyone, don't play into this garbage, seek the higher ground, I expect that you would sooner ride an e-cargo bike than a trail bike with 450mm chain-stays.


Well, sure, but you and I can at least vaguely ride a bike. 99% of mountain bikers can't do basic stuff like bunnyhop on flats, let alone do anything that short chainstays would help with. Add in extra power to climb steep stuff and grandpa/newbie boyfriend/tourist is going to end up with a fractured neck after they loop out.

If you look at the geometry and suspension on most e-bikes, they're designed to stay firmly planted on the ground and keep the rider out of self-inflicted trouble. More and more non-e bikes are headed that direction too (Pole bikes, anyone?)

That's a good thing for almost everyone, because almost everyone kinda sucks at riding a bike, and nobody likes to crash.

-Walt


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## JackWare (Aug 8, 2016)

The EMB Network has just posted this timely video reviewing two new bikes and discuss their geo and climbing abilities;


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

sorry was going to say something 100% correct but realized I am in the fantasy forum


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> If you want a seriously silly discussion, this is the best forum for it


:thumbsup:


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

craigsj said:


> Apparently you don't realize that your original post was emailed to a lot of people.
> 
> By your logic, frame dimensions don't matter to DH bikes since they aren't "100% human powered".
> 
> You like this 100% thing. I suspect every time you use it you are wrong.


that is fine

e-bikes can get away with anything, they have motors to compensate for [insert lack of performance thing here, be it weight or design]

-----------------
oh and

I don't give a flip about: if I post it gets sent to subscribers
I will edit my posts at will.
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and you are starting to do bad things here

_*you say*_

By your logic, frame dimensions don't matter to DH bikes since they aren't "100% human powered".
-----------------------------------------------------
_*
no I did not say anything about DH bikes*_

your own ability to write anything of value is seriously tested by that thing you wrote

*more proof this forum is 'a mess'

----

and I edited this about 60 times, so 60 x how many subs

*


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Learned more from that EMBN video from paying attention to Steve's positioning and how the bike responds to it, than from his words.

Observations:

- Altitude's geo allows for climbing out-of-the-saddle with hips forward of the saddle, but not totally straight up from the BB. @2:24 @9:22

- Instinct's geo kinda forced Steve into the seated position for rear traction. @2:42 @4:34 @5:29*
* can see a short flash of him on the Altitude with a more forward leaning position

- Trying to use the same riding style with both bikes leads to traction-loss related traits. @6:45 - too forward leaning, or butt off of the saddle, leads to rear tire slippage when climbing on Instinct, seemingly scooting forward when more upright (straighter back). @7:15 Altitude can wheelie on climbs with similar straighter back position. @7:42 foot out leaning forward for traction on downsloping corners on Altitude (Instinct was more about getting low, behind the bars, in comparison)

- He calls the Instinct more of an adventure bike, and the Altitude as a bike park enduro bike @8:14.

- Powerplay drivetrain being noisy isn't an isolated case @9:22.

"Trail, or aggressive trail"... 140 with big wheels vs 160? Really, saying it's the big hitting components and grippier tires? If you put the same on the Instinct, I doubt you will using the same "aggro riding style" nor be as happy as the Altitude on bike park enduro style trails. It's the geo.

Vid embedded for easier reference:


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Walt said:


> Well, sure, but you and I can at least vaguely ride a bike. 99% of mountain bikers can't do basic stuff like bunnyhop on flats, let alone do anything that short chainstays would help with. Add in extra power to climb steep stuff and grandpa/newbie boyfriend/tourist is going to end up with a fractured neck after they loop out.
> 
> If you look at the geometry and suspension on most e-bikes, they're designed to stay firmly planted on the ground and keep the rider out of self-inflicted trouble. More and more non-e bikes are headed that direction too (Pole bikes, anyone?)
> 
> ...


Walt, too funny, but I'll admit there are times when I'm feeling a little "vague" 

... and yeah, I have seen the other side, those really long bikes that are designed to be "planted", not my style of riding, but for some maybe that's the golden ring.

I ride like I ski, fast and loose, sticking to the ground is hard when the ground is loose and irregular; I'm not much of a flow guy. About the only time I worry about sticking is when I'm climbing loose stuff or tech, and that's when the short chainstays work best.

I'm in the Mike Curiak mindset for bike riding, short chainstays are more agile, able to manual on a dime, more fun, easier to get off the ground. I like the longer front centers for stability, but I don't find anything to like about long chainstays.


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## westernmtb (Dec 19, 2018)

It seems like any bike can be ridden in any way you like as long as you have the skill.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Sam Pilgrim does the same on Haibike, except his hips are usually further back. Aaron usually seems to have hips over the saddle.


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