# Need help in choosing: Ritchey Ascent Comp or Waterford PDG MTB?



## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Hello everyone! I'm a new member here and, this is my first posting! I need your help in choosing one of the two Retro MTB's described below. Both are in virtually NOS condition and are priced the same. The chosen bike will only be ridden on leisure rides and will be collected and will never be ridden in rough terrain-as I'll wish to keep it in mint condition!:

1)*1988 Ritchey Ascent Comp*: This bike is Red with a black fork. Although it is a beautiful bike, one negative is the Shimano XT rear U-brakes! I've never had this type of brakes before-but, being obsolete, and hard to adjust, I would have much preferred cantilever rear brakes instead! Also, even though I'd rather have a 7 speed SIS drivetrain, I could tolerate the Shimano 6 speed SIS system on this bike(Or, 18 total possible speeds).

2)*1991 Schwinn Waterford built, Paramount PDG MTB:* This is a true Waterford non-Series PDG MTB! The frame is lugged and silver soldered. It has straight chainstays and an XC PRO drivetrain, XC PRO hubs and pedals. The color is Neon Yellow-which was one of twelve possible colors that was only available on the Waterford built Paramount MTB's! This is a 7 speed bike(Or, 21 total possible speeds). This is a pretty rare bike-since, most of the Paramount MTB's normally seen, are the Series bikes made Asia(Although some of the Series 90 MTB's were lugged in Japan)!

Let me have your opinions pro or con as to which of the above two MTB's would get your vote as the one I should choose-and, please give your reasons? Although the final choice is entirely mine, your input will help me greatly! Thanks in advance!


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## nipsey (Apr 17, 2008)

You should definitely get the Ritchey. 

Then put me in touch with the guy selling the Waterford.


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## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

by reading your descriptions - I think you already made up your mind.

PDG


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

PDG period.


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## banks (Feb 2, 2004)

U Brakes are not a negative.


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## hairstream (Apr 20, 2008)

Ritchey no doubt. 

EDIT: Sorry forgot the "reason." See richieb post below.


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

MrOrange said:


> by reading your descriptions - I think you already made up your mind.
> 
> PDG


+1 on that thought...PDG

edit: I think the Ritcheys are much easier to find, maybe a reason to go with the PDG


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

Those waterfords are prone to cracking at the seat cluster. Examine the frame VERY carefully before buying. They do seem to be a finite lifespan frame.

If you can deal with that, it's all about the PDG.

If you want a bike that'll last, grab the Ritchey.

-Richard


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## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

banks said:


> U Brakes are not a negative.


+1

By far the easiest mountain bike brake in the history of the sport to set up and adjust. If you don't think so it's time someone showed you. Nothing is easier unless you're using the Fred Flintstone/Barney Rubble braking method.


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

Buy a minty fresh Klein, put semi-slick tires on it, ride it around your development, and then hang it in your garage when you get bored....

Leave the Ritchey and Paramount to someone who will really ride them.

(sorry, I'm feelin' a bit crabby this morning...)



Steve


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

eastcoaststeve said:


> Buy a minty fresh Klein, put semi-slick tires on it, ride it around your development, and then hang it in your garage when you get bored....
> 
> Leave the Ritchey and Paramount to someone who will really ride them.
> 
> ...


+1. Nothing irritates me more on these forums than seeing bikes that aren't used for their intended purpose.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Yes! I vote for a Klein! Those are total collector items! They come with cantilever brakes too! For a total of 2 possible brakes!

Just ribbing you. Not sure why you are asking. If you have enough money to buy one and hang it up and do nothing with it, I'm sure you can swing both.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Yes! I vote for a Klein! Those are total collector items! They come with cantilever brakes too! For a total of 2 possible brakes!
> 
> Just ribbing you. Not sure why you are asking. If you have enough money to buy one and hang it up and do nothing with it, I'm sure you can swing both.


either that or a Fat Chance Yo Eddy. those are the best bikes to show off.


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## misterdangerpants (Oct 10, 2007)

banks said:


> U Brakes are not a negative.


To some they are. I tend to agree with Sheldon Brown regarding the serious drawbacks of U-brakes. This buyer has certain specifications they desire, and just because U-brakes don't appear in the positive column, doesn't necessarily mean they are bad. To each their own.

Anyway, I digress. Buy what fits you and makes you smile.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

1)I had always read that rear chainstay brakes were not favored over cantilever brakes(Example: SHELDON BROWN). Also indicated was that cantilevers were much easier to adjust and the U-brakes had a tendency to climb up on the rim and destroy tires quite frequently, as the brake pads wore down. Also, problems with getting the rear wheel out due to the caliper arms not spreading enough. There were other reasons mentioned-but, supposedly most bike shops hated working on rear chainstay mounted u-brakes. Of course, I'm after the truth regarding these indicated statements from owners of this type of u-brakes?
2)No, I haven't made up my mind as I like both the Ritchey Ascent and the Paramount PDG-but, for different reasons. The Neon Yellow color with purple accents on the forks and on the chainstays isn't as attractive to me, as the red Ritchey with the black fork.
3)I thought that the Ritchey Ascent Comp wasn't appreciated like the P-Series Ritchey MTB's and therefore not being very collectible? And, I had imagined that just being an obsoleted 18 speed bike would have caused everyone here to frown on this? Another thing that threw me off regarding the Ritchey, was the comment from the bike shop owner, who owns this Ritchey MTB, where he told me. that he didn't know why I'd want a bike like this? Although he didn't clarify his reasoning, I had assumed that this must have been mostly due to the rear u-brakes?
4)I know that later, whenever the Waterford built PDG MTB's were built with even thinner, oversized tubing, that there were some problems with frame cracking at the seat tube on the bottom bracket. But, the earlier PDG bikes like the one I'm considering to buy, used thicker and smaller tube diameters. I've also read that a sharp point was added to the later lugs which had tended to cause the frame to crack on the newer oversized tubing.
5)The choice is specific to either the mint 1988 Ritchey Ascent Comp or the mint Paramount PDG, as there are no Klein's or Fat Chance's or Yo-Eddie's bikes available to me!
6)It's important to me, for the members here to keep inputing any Pro's or Con's which will aid me greatly in coming to the right decision between these two MTB's! I'm sure that most of you avid mountain biker's or, collector's, have more experience than I have and your great knowledge or experience inputed here, will be very helpful to my cause!
7)Since both of the aforementioned MTB's are now "Classic" bikes in mint condition, is the reason I don't want to take them out to beat them up in mountain biking riding! I know that whatever choice I'll be making will be a compromise-but, I want to pick the best overall choice between these two bikes-with all things Pro & Con taken into consideration? Thanks for all of your input so far!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

sfgirlonbike:

Yes, if I could afford both bikes, I'd love to own both-but, this is one reason why it's hard for me to choose between these two bikes! I can only afford one of these bikes!


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

If you really aren't going to ride it in "rough terrain" brakes and their adjustment seem to be not as important than if you were going to. If the intention is to have a show piece its really not something to worry about. Not to rag on your reason for purchase but the reason shop owner asked why you want this bike is because you can buy some pretty cool new bikes with disc brakes that would make nice show pieces as well.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

chefmiguel:

Yes, I think that your reasoning could be correct regarding what that bike shop owner had told me, in terms of picking the Ritchey Ascent Comp over the Paramount(Waterford)PDG. Thanks!

Personally, I'm not into the newer mountain bikes-as I like the Retro MTB's better. I already own a mint 1992 Bridgestone MB-1 and, I want to add either the 1988 Ritchey Ascent Comp or the 1991 Waterford PDG to go with this bike!


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

mb2good said:


> chefmiguel:
> 
> Yes, I think that your reasoning could be correct regarding what that bike shop owner had told me, in terms of picking the Ritchey Ascent Comp over the Paramount(Waterford)PDG. Thanks!
> 
> Personally, I'm not into the newer mountain bikes-as I like the Retro MTB's better. I already own a mint 1992 Bridgestone MB-1 and, I want to add either the 1988 Ritchey Ascent Comp or the 1991 Waterford PDG to go with this bike!


to go where? since you won't ride them it does not matter which one is a better bike. buy the one w/ the best color..


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

I think the OP wants to know which is the best investment. Which will appreciate more over time.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

colker1:

No, I will ride the bike-just not as a mountain bike-only for rides out on country roads to enjoy and, just for the sake of owning an nice, classic MTB! But, input from owner's of Ritchey Ascent or Ascent Comp bikes would be very helpful-especially in regards to the rear chainstay u-brakes? As I know that both Suntour and Shimano XT rear chainstay u-brakes were used on these bikes-and, I'd like to know which of these were the better set-up? Also, to learn their overall experience owning these u-brakes? Did they love em or hate em?

I know that their are probably a lot fewer owners of the Waterford PDG MTB's-since, not many of these bikes are seen around anywhere! There's not much information posted on this fine forum, that I could find, either! Even the waterfordbikes.com didn't show much Information!

My hope is that through the various forum member opinions, that I'll be able to select the best overall bike, between the above two choices? I have only a week to decide-because the bike shop owner will only hold these two bikes until then! My feeling is that with a ton of input coming in here, I'll have a better chance of picking the best of these two bikes-as I'd not want to make a mistake in picking the wrong bike! Because, once these bikes are gone-they will be gone! Since I'm a perfectionist by nature, this makes choosing more difficult! Thanks for your input!


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

If all it is about is brakes, then yeah, chainstay mounted brakes are inconveniently located. But really they aren't that bad to work on. If you're just going to ride it on rural roads then it really doesn't matter.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Yes, another good point! Thanks!


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

Had both brakes a long time ago. Always found Shimano U brakes to be easy to adjust there was less to fuss with. Suntour with the cam I thought had better modulation. I don't believe any of us have considered fit. These two bikes fit you?


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

IF52:

Well, it's not just about the u-brakes-but, the overall bike comparison as well! But, things like the availability of parts for the specific chainstay u-brakes that were used on the Ritchey Ascent bikes, as well?

Also, what about the rear freehub 6 speed cogs availability-or, if possible, can 7-speed cassette cogs be found to fit on the Deore XT rear freehub? I do have a new set of Shimano XT thumb shifters and cables!

By the same token, I've acquired several NOS Suntour XC PRO parts-so that I'd have any needed parts available for my 1992 Bridgestone MB-1-since it was fully XC PRO equipped in terms of the drivetrain! These parts would come in handy, should I end up choosing the Paramount XC PRO equipped. PDG MTB!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

*Bike fit?*

chefmiguel:

Yes, both bikes are 49cm(18 inch)bikes and they both fit me! Thanks for bringing this up!

I'm puzzled regarding the rear u-brakes-since you've indicated that they weren't a problem for you to keep in adjustment? I tried hard to research rear chainstay mounted u-brakes-but, almost every opinion that came up-was negative towards these brakes! So, every positive comment would be helpful to me! I figured that since there were varius types of rear u-brakes, that some must have been much better than others? I did find only one comment about the shimano XT U-brakes being better than say, Suntours roller cam version!


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

The biggest gripe people had about chainstay mounted brakes was the fact that mud (more of a problem here on the east coast than say southern California) would hang off the brake and then braking power would be reduced because mud wouldn't let the brake pads make good contact with the rim. But they did offer excellent heel clearance as opposed to the cantilevers of the time. If I'm not mistaken I think it was the WTB guys who had a little manifesto about why this location was ideal for brakes. Again the mud issue shouldn't be a big deal to you if you're not going to be riding it in that type of terrain.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

chefmiguel:

Yes, you are right that mud wouldn't be an issue in the type of riding that I'll be doing! But, I wouldn't want to chew my rear ire up if the rear u-brakes will be problematical in this respect? The way SHELDON BROWN had stated, that thousands of tires had been ruined due to the tendency of the rear chainstay u-brake pads wearing and moving upwards into the rear tire's sidewall! A scary thought to me!

Do you think that it was mainly the mud problem that had caused the rear chainstay u-brake fad to have ended abruptly-or, were their some other problems that had led to this fad ending?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

my bet is the ritchey should have a slightly longer wheelbase thus being more stable w/ calmer handling. 
i may be wrong though...


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

colker1:

1)I'm sure that you are correct that the Ritchey would have the longer wheelbase than the Waterford PDG MTB! And, the ride should be comfortable!
2)However, in 1992 before I had purchased my 1992 Bridgestone MB-1, I had test rode a Series 70 PDG MTB and was amazed at how nicely it had rode and it did have a more neutral type of handling-which seemed nicer for leisurely rides! So, maybe the Waterford PDG should ride good too? Although, my MB-1 also has a very smooth ride! But, it is a very quick handling bike!
3)Although, my type of riding style wouldn't over stress either of these two bikes frames, according to the 1991 Paramount catalog. Schwinn had claimed that their silver soldered, lugged, Waterford built, PDG frame was three times as strong as any tig welded frame! Regarding the Ritchey, I read a comment by Tom Ritchey where he had advised someone not wanting to spend for one of his fully fillet brazed bikes-should buy the tig welded Richey's-since his fillet brazing was only for cosmetic purposes! Just some bits and pieces to take under consideration!


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

I'm not sure why there's a debate about u brakes! If you're not even going to be riding it, it's really moot!! If you want a show bike that is rare, then sell your MB-1 (since those were mass produced!) and get them both for a total of 2 bikes!


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

methinks y'all are gettin trolled

ain't sure to what end though


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

U brakes on the chainstays are bad for mud. other than that, they are maintenance-free and stop well. Seeing as you are buying the bike for light riding you will never encounter the down side of a u brake.

Buy whichever bike you like the best. Simple. 

I have now officially lost interest in this thread.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

sfgirlonbike:

1)I understand your reasoning-but, I'm very partial to my MB-1! But, otherwise, I'd love to have both the Ritchey and the Paramount PDG bikes!
2)I will be riding the bike I'll be selecting-just not up in the hills doing mountain biking!
3)The rear u-brakes would be a problem if they are a pain to keep properly adjusted and, if these brakes are obsolete enough to not have any replacement parts available?
4)Although I intend to ride the bike, I just want to keep it in mint condition! That's just my nature!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

richieb:

I'm sorry that you have lost interest in this thread! However, you have inputed some significant information here regarding the chainstay u-brakes! Thanks! I'm hoping for more form member input-because, there is much information that has not yet been inputed, that will definately help my decision making! Please continue to input your comments or opinions regarding the two bikes in question. There should at least be plenty of Ritchey Comp owner's out there that could tell me about their personal experiences with their bikes? Hopefully a few Waterford Paramount PDG owner's too?


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

*U brake parts*

Being as detail oriented as you are I'm sure you've researched replacement parts for the Ritchey "brake woes". A dime a dozen on ebay.

IMHO The Paramount wins hands down. Buy one and enjoy.

J


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## hairstream (Apr 20, 2008)

hairstream said:


> Ritchey no doubt.


I'm done.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

jeff:

1)Although I am detail oriented, I haven't yet gotten into researching the U-brake parts on ebay yet! It was more important for me to attempt to gather up all of the opinions from the forum members here between the Ritchey Ascent Comp versus the Waterford PDG!
2)Since You have indicated that the Schwinn PDG wins hands down, I'd like to hear your reasons for choosing the PDG over the Ritchey Ascent Comp? Thanks!


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Personal preference for me. My affinity for rare Schwinns and Waterford added to the fact that I would like to see this thread die. Sorry. 

Jeff


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Jeff:

I appreciate your response! But, to kill this thread so soon, would be bad for me! If you look back over the threads, you would see that there hasn't been too many facts given to support some of the member opinions given! Although I appreciate every opinion given, facts and practical experience is a much better basis for helping me to come to an appropriate decision in choosing from the aforementioned bikes! I've tried to be as detailed as possible in order to attract factual answers from anyone who has had hands on experiece with either of the two bikes in question? Hopefully, you all won't give up too soon? I've felt that this forum would be the only place that I possibly, could get the answers to my questions-since I hadn't found much information on the web pertaining to the Ritchey Ascent Comp nor, the Waterford PDG MTB's!


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Jeez dude, just flip a coin. either way you win.


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

Please just buy one and be happy with it. They are both fine quality bikes. Everyones taste is different so even if everyone said buy "XXX" you may not like it. Live dangerously and just make a decision.

I am also done.....


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

hollister said:


> methinks y'all are gettin trolled
> 
> ain't sure to what end though


Yeah, I eluded to that earlier. Are we all the sudden going to see one or the other on the bay or is dude trying to buy low during this [email protected] economic downturn so he can sell high if there is still interest later.


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

Apologies to mb2good, I too am done. No I have no "facts" as to why u-brakes are better/suck I just know my past experience. Do I believe you are trolling? No. However you have just experienced a great deal of experienced riders tell you that you can't lose. So buy a bike and ride it, then tell us how great it is and how wonderful we all are for giving our 2 cents. Personally I need it for my self-esteem.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

chefmiguel:

I appreciate everyone's efforts in attempting to help me! Yes, it's true that both bikes are good-but, I would be much happier, if it were possible to obtain input from MTB owner's of the two bikes in question(past or present)to aid me in accurately, selecting the better of these two bikes? At least this was my goal. I didn't think that I'd be boring anyone due to striving so hard to determine the true facts(positive or negative)regarding these bikes? I only wanted to thoroughly analyze these bikes to the highest level posible to gain whatever knowledge was out there about them? Afterall, one cannot become knowledgeable about anything, without researching it extensively! Usually, with actual owner's input, one could learn a great deal! Although I knew that the Waterford PDG MTB information was likely to be the hardest to come by, I felt that there was enough Ritchey owner's out there who could contribute a lot of information about the Ritchey Ascent Comp bikes-as long as they felt like contributing this information? It was disappointing to hear comments to just buy one of these bikes and forget it-as that's not very informative-nor, very educational! In any forum, the important information comes from knowledgeable owner's of whatever the item in question might be! Of course, I feel lucky to have received any answers at all! But, for sure, any forum is for the purpose of sharing knowledge and experiences! That's how we all learn from each other-since everyone's knowledge experiences are different! Although it is a moot point to some, it was very important to me, to get the best and most reliable information possible, from the forum members here! I still hope that before everyone gives up, that some additional factual information will come through here? Every piece of information given could prove to be significant-as the old saying goes-"Two heads are better than one"- therefore, a forum of heads would certainly be much better than that!


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

Who is this really ?...nobody can be this thick...

.I'm usually pretty tolerant but I'm gonna go puke 



edit: don't buy either one, they are both crap. They are both prone to breakage and handle poorly. I think you would be happier with a Bianchi....


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## pint (Oct 6, 2008)

mb2good, sorry you may not have gotten the info you were looking for. I realize I may be new here, so I don't want to say too much...However, when you enter a vintage forum where people are passionate about buying and USING these bikes as they were intended, you can't help but get the runaround. Buy a cool old bike and ride the **** out of it! None of them are going to be worth enough to help your retirement plan! If the goal is to ride around your subdivision, as well as a few country roads, get a new bike. I appreciate the fact that you like the vintage stuff, but a new bike will be easier to maintain, more gears, better brakes and more comfortable. Good luck in your decision. :thumbsup:


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## josegraff (Nov 7, 2004)

*Ride them both then decide*

It's simple, take them both out and pick the one that you enjoy more. Both are old enough that parts replacement will prove difficult, and if you ride them as lightly as you've suggested, I doubt wear will occur in any measurable extent. The parts will more likely degrade from sitting idle than from your rides.

Also, as a tip:

If you want to strongly emphasize a sentence, either because it's emphatic or humorous, you may sparingly use a exclamation point. But use it sparingly! It's supposed to express strong emotion. Don't use more than one at the end of a sentence, unless you're a strongly-emotional fourteen-year-old girl writing on MySpace.
Much better: use exclamation points no more than once per page. Like the boy who cried Wolf so often that nobody believed him when he saw a real wolf, you don't want to become known as the writer who cried Exclamation when there wasn't really anything worth exclaiming about.


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

I'll say this once - We are not a Vintage Mountain bike information mine. This is not a place to just ask questions you are too lazy or impatient to find out the answers to on your own. We are a community the exchanges ideas and information. There is give and take. You just seem to want information. The Internet is a big place - find the info for yourself.

You will not get the information you are looking for, because you have yet to realized or recognize that it's been given to you many times already. You just fail to see it.

Still bored.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

da'Hoov:

1)I think that you are being unfair-because, although there has been several good opinions given in regards to my questions, if you review all of the prior threads you will not find very many facts given!

2)Your prior opinion was good, to suggest that since there were probably many more Ritchey bikes out there-maybe, I should go with the PDG bike! I appreciated this opinion!

3)I don't see why you should resent my quest for facts-regardless of how good the opinions have been, coming through in this thread! Do you prefer to gain knowledge through just opinions and conjecture-or, wouldn't you think that gaining knowledge through true experiences and facts would be better? This is all I'm trying to achieve!


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

From everything I've read here, I'm gonna go out on a limb for a bit....


mb2good, are you by any chance the guy who listed the $2000 Mongoose and Univega on Ebay a while back?




Steve


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

josegraff:

1)Thanks for your advice to ride the bikes and then decide. I will do this also. But, any reports from owner's of the bikes I'm considering would be wonderful in addition to riding those bikes.

2)Thanks for the tip regarding using an exclamation point. I had just picked up the habit of using several exclamation points since I was a kid. I guess that I was just a serious kid who thought that I should use so many exclamation points. Although I know that this isn't correct, it's hard to break an old habit. Your tip was well taken.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

richieb:

1)Whatever knowledge that is posessed by the forum members here, should be available to any member who should request such information. That is what forums are for. Right now, in my first thread on this fine forum, yes, I've been seeking information to aid me in solving my bike choice problem. I've searched through this forum several times before I finally joined this forum only to find many members asking for as well as sharing information. I'm not the only one seeking MTB information and I don't understand your unfriendly attitude towards my questions?
2)For your information, if you will check back earlier in this thread, you will find that I had mentioned that I had already done considerable research regarding the topic in this thread and on the web, had not found the answers to my questions! And, since there wasn't much information available pertaining to the older Ritchey Ascent Comp bikes and virtually none about the Waterford PDG MTB, is the reason I had joined this forum in the hopes that some of the members here might have factual experience and advice to give me based upon owning either of these bikes?

3)You seem to not recognize opinions(Although good!)from facts! I'm desiring more factual information-hopefully from owners of the two bikes in question! So, you are incorrect, that all of the information that I'm looking for has been given to me already. I know from researching this forum, that there are several Ritchey bike owners who could possibly be responding to this thread-who haven't yet done so. However, maybe nothing more about the much rarer Waterford PDG MTB's would become available.
4)My goal was never to offend anyone-however, for some reason you have chosen to be offended due to my sincere request for information? However, as time goes on and I get involved riding my MTB's I'll input information here to share with the other members. I thought this would be a friendlier forum? Asking questions should not be considered a crime. And I'm not here to just pick your brains and then run off to never return again. I joined this forum to become a solid member. Hopefully, you'll calm down and not continue to be offended?


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

Sweet...I just discovered the Ignore List!


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

1) this isnt a borg collective. our knowledge isn't available to you unless we want to share it. It is voluntary, not compulsory

2) See your comment 3 about the scarcity of the PDG. Why haven't you seen too many comments about that bike I wonder.

3) Opinion, fact, what difference does it make. You aren't going to ride the bike so it doesn't matter whether one brake system has advantages over the other. You were pointed in the right direction about the brakes (Sheldon Brown's site) now sift through and figure it out for yourself

4) If you are legit, which is questionable, then let me explain it too you. You appear to be trolling. You appear to be fishing for information about which bike is more desireable so you can profit off of the information people on this forum give to you. It happens here too often and is unwelcome. If you are not trolling them I apologize. In any case, you have all the info you actually really need, now do whatever it is you need to do.


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

1)"I think that you are being unfair"----- lifes a ***** and then you die 

2)"Your prior opinion was good,"-----thanx, but I must have goofed up on that one  

3)"I don't see why you should resent my quest for facts"----- I don't resent it, I and others just tired of it  


Welcome to the forum :thumbsup:


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

*Paramount*

I do have a bit of saddle time on pdg 70,80 and 90'S, thus my connection to the brand. These were all early 90's, very well crafted, skinny tubed and lugged. The 90 that I rode was a Waterloo bike but seemed to have the same ride characteristics of the other frames. Smooth, stable and neutral. As far as the component specs go the Suntour/Shimano subject has been covered here time and time again. Use the search function. It works most of the time. I can't help you with the Ritchey but I can bet you'll find plenty of info on it if you really search. They're different bike from different years from different builders from different parts of the country with very different histories. 6 speed? 7 speed? U brakes? (put a rollercam on it if you're really worried) Canti's? Who cares? It's a vintage bike that will see very little use so I feel your choice should be based on which one sings to you. Most of us on this forum choose our purchases based on just that. If you don't get that then I can be of no more assistance to you.

It's simple for me to understand.Put your intellect away for a moment and use that emotional brain that tells you which bike will give you the most smiles per miles.


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## hairstream (Apr 20, 2008)

Lock please.


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

The Vintage board gets its own David Copperfield. How special.


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

Except David Copperfield knows when to end his act and disappear


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

IF52:

1)Yes, I'm aware that any knowledge given on this forum is voluntary and not compulsory. But, as a courtesy, it's just polite to answer any questions asked if you have the knowledge needed for a proper answer-especially to a newbie like me.
2)I had already pointed out earlier that there probably wouldn't be much information coming through regarding the Waterford PDG-since these bikes were hardly ever seen around. But, I did have hopes that someone on this forum could own one of these bikes to report about?
3)learning the Pros and Cons about the u-brakes was important to me-just to determine whether I'd care to own this type of brakes compared to cantilevers? Then, rather than being left with just vague information, I'd be better able to decide this for myself.
4)I can see that I'll need to forgive you(And others)for your resentment towards my questions-because, I'm definately not trolling! In fact, I don't understand why anyone would do this? I'm honestly just wanting to get the information I'm seeking about the two bikes I'm attempting to pick from? But, the point is that I now understand why some of the forum members have been somewhat hostile towards me, in view of prior trolling problems! Yikes! This all makes sense to me now. If those trollers have made everybody so angry on this forum to want to snap at me-then, this must be a serious situation here? In view of this, I accept your apology! Also, thanks for your positive comments given.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

jeff:

Thanks for giving me the kind of answers that I should have received from the very start! See, that wasn't so hard was it? Your advice sounds reasonable to me! I'm guessing that some of the forum members must be thinking that I wasn't legit and was a troller instead-since they have been snapping at me? Well, I'm not a troller and I have no respect at all for trollers! To me, doing something like that is the same as computer hackers sending out a computer virus for the sole purpose of destroying computers or stealing information! So, I'm not holding any anger towards you for any of your negative comments regarding my questions. It's only natural to want to defend this forum against trollers-so, I don't blame you for doing that! I'm just a newbie seeking knowledgeable answers to my questions! I apologize to you also, if I had said anything to offend you?


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

pint:

Thanks for your honest advice!


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## cousineddie (Oct 23, 2008)

*Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!*

It took me less time to decide when I bought my last car!!:madman:

Dude, make a decision already. This isn't life or death. It's a frickin' bike!:crazy:

Call me crazy but methinks both bikes are yours AND you're mining the forum for info to write a CL or Ebay ad.:skep:


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

stan4000bikes said:


> Call me crazy but methinks both bikes are yours AND you're mining the forum for info to write a CL or Ebay ad.:skep:


You mean kind of like that e-stay Haro that somebody was asking about the other week


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

stan4000bikes:

1)I was born a perfectionist and this makes me a fussy guy. I'm just the type of person who gets very serious about whetever he is shopping for-especially, things like cars, trucks, and MTB's! I've been told ever since I was a kid, that every toy that I buy shouldn't be "Life or death", But, although I know that this is true, I've never been able to change. It's just my nature to be like this.
2)I'll admit that I've made an obsession out of selecting one of the two bikes I'm serious about buying. To me, this is important-right or wrong and this is the reason that I was so excited to have joined this forum. I wanted to be able to not only learn anything new about the Ritchey Ascent Comp and the Paramount PDG MTB, I wanted to be able to discuss biking with some fellow enthusiasts-and to become a long term member of this forum. Now, my enthusiasm has dwindled because, instead of being accepted and welcomed into this forum, and treated with respect, I've been given the cold shoulder-since it seems that rhe members here. want to believe that I'm just a troller. Is every new member that happens to be serious natured, automatically labeled as a troller? What does it take to prove that this is false? Surely, I can't be the only member on this forum who is obsessed about MTB's?
3)If the two bikes were mine-then, I'd already be posting pictures of them on this forum-but, I do not own either of these bikes at this time. I was looking forward to doing this with great pride-but now, since I'm wondering whether I'll ever be accepted as a member in good standing here, this doesn't look promising? I'm certainly not mining this forum to gather information to place an Ad on Ebay or write an CL. My questions have only been to seek information to help me select either that Ritchey Ascent Comp or that PDG MTB and that's the whole ball of wax(so to speak)! If I'm not able to convince the members of this-then, I'll be unfairly forced to have to seek out another MTB forum? However, this is the best forum that I've seen anywhere on the web and I thought that I could be a proud member of this organization? Oh, if you think that I'm taking too long to make a decision about buying a bike-you should see me whenever I'm buying a car! My whole family goes crazy-but heck, that's just me! In fact, whenever I was in growing up, I was called "sure" Mike-since I was so fussy and meticulous about everything in life!


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

wow. That's all I got.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Wow²*

I read through this whole thread twice and have yet to really find any questions asked.

What do you want to know about the Waterford? I see 'em all the time. Waterford is just down the road.


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## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

" If I'm not able to convince the members of this-then, I'll be unfairly forced to have to seek out another MTB forum?"

Bye.  

No, honestly . . . Do some searches of this forum and you will see any discussion that has already happened on these two bikes.

That's about all there is. Be resourceful and decide for yourself. Just like voting for a president or finding a significant other. Only you know. Not us.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

don't we all have too much time on our hands?


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## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

*THREAD JACK*

Hey Shayne, gonna be at the swap?

I'm table 42.


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## nipsey (Apr 17, 2008)

http://www.waterfordbikes.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=451


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Shayne:

Do you know anyone who owns an 1991 Waterford PDG MTB who would give me whatever overall experience he has had with this specific bike?

I know about the specifications of these bikes-since I'm familiar with Suntour XC PRO stuff. However, it would also be great if sombody who had also owned an Ritchey Ascent Comp, could report their experiences with both of these two bikes and comparing them in terms of their comfort, reliability, and overall owner satisfaction and/or problems?

At this point I only know that the Ritchey bikes are more well known and are probably a more popular bike than the Waterford PDG. From all of the research that I've done, I believe that Schwinn really goofed by confusing everyone regarding their Paramount mountain bikes-by having both the Waterford built PDG's and then, turning around and naming their Asian made Paramount PDG MTB's as Series bikes-the top of the line, being the Series 90. Even on the www.waterfordbikes.com they primarily talk about the Series bikes and say virtually nothing about the true Waterford PDG MTB's! I also had gone to the Schwinn forum and had contacted Schwinn-but, they said that a 1991 Waterford PDG MTB was too old to enable them to provide any information about this bike.

It's interesting that you live just down the road from the Waterford factory. I'd be interested to learn anything that you might know about the Waterford PDG MTB's or, anything that you might have observed about these bikes from just being near the Waterford factory? I'm not expecting that much information will come through-but, anything is better than nothing?

I appreciate your offer to give me whatever information you might know about the Waterford MTB's! Thank you very much!


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## cousineddie (Oct 23, 2008)

mb2good said:


> I was born a perfectionist and this makes me a fussy guy.


Go back and read this thread from beginning to end. You have enough facts and opinions now about both bikes to make a decision. Now it's up to you. I'm done.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

MrOrange:

Thanks for the advice! I think that you nailed it- because I had already searched this forum (Before joining) about the Waterford Paramount PDG MTB and had found very little information. I had a little better luck regarding Ritchey MTB's-but, mostly pertaining to the more popular "P" Series models. I think that I was just dreaming that by questioning this forum, that someone might come forward who had owned an 1991 Paramount PDG MTB and maybe also an Ritchey Ascent Comp to give me a blow by blow comparison of these two bikes? However, I know now that I've been pumping a dry well-since there just aren't very many of the 1991 Waterford Paramount PDG MTB's out there to compare against the Ritchey Ascent Comp MTB! I was amazed that even on Google, I was unable to find very much information-especially regarding the Waterford PDG MTB.

Maybe, I'd have better luck if I were to eventually start a new thread inquiring for owner's assessment of their Ritchey Ascent bikes in general? Hmm?


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## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

mb2good said:


> MrOrange:
> 
> Thanks for the advice! I think that you nailed it- because I had already searched this forum (Before joining) about the Waterford Paramount PDG MTB and had found very little information. I had a little better luck regarding Ritchey MTB's-but, mostly pertaining to the more popular "P" Series models. I think that I was just dreaming that by questioning this forum, that someone might come forward who had owned an 1991 Paramount PDG MTB and maybe also an Ritchey Ascent Comp to give me a blow by blow comparison of these two bikes? However, I know now that I've been pumping a dry well-since there just aren't very many of the 1991 Waterford Paramount PDG MTB's out there to compare against the Ritchey Ascent Comp MTB! I was amazed that even on Google, I was unable to find very much information-especially regarding the Waterford PDG MTB.
> 
> Maybe, I'd have better luck if I were to eventually start a new thread inquiring for owner's assessment of their Ritchey Ascent bikes in general? Hmm?


Post pics . . . people here react to pics . . . that would help


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

stan4000bikes:

Okay, I will review this thread again. I realize now that other than for the Ritchey MTB's that the information that I was seeking about the Waterford PDG MTB, just wasn't available on this forum-nor, anywhere else I'd searched. Thanks, for all of the help that you have given me.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Get a loan, buy both, write a book on the differences. You could cover topics like which one feels nicer when riding in neighborhood, how many tires your U brake ate per month, etc.

The book proceeds should easily pay back the loan.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Okay, I have a confession. I have both bikes. Let me help you:

!) They both feel like I'm riding on metal. The Ritchey feels more metallic though. I think it's because being near the Waterford plant, the air is just more metallic.

2) The pedals are nicer on the Waterford. I think it's because I like to wear my heels on them for when I go out dancing with my husband, Igor. So, when I look good, I feel good! And when I feel good, the pedals feel good!

3) The grips on the Waterford are nicer. I don't want to scratch up or glue up my NOS handlebars so I just let them spin around and somehow the Waterford one is just a tighter fit so I definitely feel more in control while I cruise around town looking very cool.

4) Since I'm like you and I only ride on sidewalks with pipe insulation to protect the minty freshness of my bikes, I have to say, the Ritchey looks better. The red peeking through the black pipe insulation just screams, "CLASSY!" Plus, I can even lean my bikes on poles while I glaze at myself in shop windows while wearing my Rapha team kit without damage to my paint! I highly recommend pipe insulation.

Anyhow, I hope this helps. I wanted to keep my ownership a secret because I don't want everybody to hate me and be jealous, but I can tell you're a friend in need and I always help a friend.

Cheers!


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## cousineddie (Oct 23, 2008)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Okay, I have a confession. I have both bikes. Let me help you:
> 
> !) They both feel like I'm riding on metal. The Ritchey feels more metallic though. I think it's because being near the Waterford plant, the air is just more metallic.
> 
> ...


ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Okay, I have a confession. I have both bikes. Let me help you:
> 
> !) They both feel like I'm riding on metal. The Ritchey feels more metallic though. I think it's because being near the Waterford plant, the air is just more metallic.
> 
> ...


perfect.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

I'm so proud of all the regulars here right now. 

Classic all the way through! I'm crackin' up over here. :lol:


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Fillet-brazed:

Thanks for the suggestion! However, my wife wouldn't go for my getting a loan to purchase both bikes. She already thinks that I'm crazy to even consider buying one of these old, "Retro-grouch" bikes-despite their being virtually NOS! She almost killed me for putting a down payment on both bikes just to hold them until I could gather enough information to enable me to feel comfortable about picking just one of these bikes! And, she's even tougher on me than some of you forum members have been(Hahaha)!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

sfgirlonbike:

1)Thanks for your confession!

2)Wow! Now, can you post some pictures of your two "Gems"?


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Rumpfy:

I have seen a picture of one of your Ritchey MTB's so why don't you tell me about your experiences with these MTB's-especially, the Ritchey Ascent or Ascent Comp? You seem to be fond of Ritchey bikes? Thanks!


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## hairstream (Apr 20, 2008)

They will both look nice hanging on the wall. You'll have more fun regaling your friends about the Ritchey as you sip white wine and dither about. A Schwinn they will know about and will think it just another neighborhood bike. Oh, I forgot, that's what this is going to be a neighborhood bike.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

mb2good said:


> sfgirlonbike:
> 
> 1)Thanks for your confession!
> 
> 2)Wow! Now, can you post some pictures of your two "Gems"?


A) Seriously, somebody will kill me. They are all so jealous already. I really have alot to live for. I don't want to die young! No! No! No!!!

B) I also have another problem with my camera. I didn't want dust to get in it so they are in ziploc bags. (TWO for double the protection!) I have been trying to take photos but they come out very blurry. I will try to find an underwater one soon so I can post them.

C) If you don't hear from me, then it's very likely somebody has killed me. But don't worry. I have rigged my bikes so that in the event that I perish, they will self destruct! Nobody will reap rewards from my demise! Nobody!!!!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

MrOrange:

Maybe, I'll try to post a link to a small picture and a description of the 1991 Waterford built PDG-as I found this online-and, this is the only picture currently available to me. Later, if I end up purchasing this bike rather than the Ritchey bike, I'll post some actual pictures of it! Thanks!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

sfgirlonbike:

Oh no, Ill bet that you are just too pretty to be killed! Thanks for your imaginary support! At least you tried to humor me. That's okay.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

hairstream:

You are right the bike will just be a neighborhood mint bike-just that it won't be hung on the wall. And yes, the Paramount PDG would likely be viewed as just a common neighborhood bike.


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## hairstream (Apr 20, 2008)

"Oh no, Ill bet that you are just too pretty to be killed! Thanks for your imaginary support! At least you tried to humor me. That's okay."

Hey. No reason to get personal.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

mb2good said:


> Rumpfy:
> 
> I have seen a picture of one of your Ritchey MTB's so why don't you tell me about your experiences with these MTB's-especially, the Ritchey Ascent or Ascent Comp? You seem to be fond of Ritchey bikes? Thanks!


I don't have an Ascent or Ascent Comp, nor do I ride on bike paths! I'm not sure I can help you here!

On a totally unrelated note. how good would you say you are at deciphering sarcasm!?


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

I am being totally and completely serious.

DO NOT BUY EITHER BIKE!

You will undoubtedly have buyer's remorse and then we'll have to suffer that here as well.


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Okay, I have a confession. I have both bikes. Let me help you:
> 
> !) They both feel like I'm riding on metal. The Ritchey feels more metallic though. I think it's because being near the Waterford plant, the air is just more metallic.
> 
> ...


That's all well and good SFGirl but which one tastes more like a penny?


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Rumpfy:

1)Oh, I thought that you might have owned an Ritchey Ascent or Ascent Comp. Are your Ritchey bikes the "P" series? Thanks!
2)Maybe whatever you can tell me about your overall impressions of the Ritchey MTB's that you've owned would still apply somewhat to the older Ascent Comp-since they are still Ritchey bikes? Have you experienced any problems with the quality of your Ritchey bikes?
3)Honestly, I don't know if I'm that good in deciphering sarcasm, in view of my serious nature? But, I can take a joke as long as I think someone is kidding me. Maybe, I've been a little dense on this forum and hadn't realized that some of the criticizm given was only a little sarcasm? If I'm guilty of this-then, I'll have to apologize where this is appropriate? Thanks, for bringing this up!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

IF52:

Surely, there are plenty of enthusiasts on this forum who are every bit as fanatical as I am about their MTB's in various ways! Maybe, you are also? Do you suffer everytime you read postings on this forum from other members who are like this? Just like on any other forum, don't you just read the postings that interest you as well as to ignore other, less interesting postings? All of us can be obsessed about the things that interest us the most-otherwise, none of us would be on this forum-because we are all MTB enthusiasts! I have never been one to criticize others because of their obsessions about the things that they idolize. Why don't you consider the rights of others to be a perfectionist and not tend to be so critical? None of us can be expected to love the same things. But, as a group on this forum, we can all share in things relating to mountain bikes, equipment, or mountain biking itself. And, whatever is said on this forum, can be shared with others who might have the same interests. Those of us who don't have the knowledge of others on this forum, should not be criticized simply because they might be seeking answers to their questions. All of us have needed help from time to time. Why can't we respect other members rights and not judge each other unfairly? This forum is a wealth of knowledge and, as I'll learn more, I'll be willing to share my knowledge with others without any problem. I view this forum as a place for everyone to gain as well as to give their knowledge freely to others. I think that this is the way that any forum is supposed to operate. If anyone's postings are uninteresting-then, there is always the option not to read those postings. I hope that this doesn't seem unreasonable to you? And, be assured that my intent is not to offend you.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

I'm not being critical with that comment, I'm being serious. You are starting to remind me of a customer I had who came into the shop for three days straight to test ride a bike we had on close out during a big sale. Because it was on sale and in limited numbers I couldn't hold the bike for him, he either had to buy it or leave and take a chance that somebody else would buy it. Anyway, I started to get this feeling that he would buy the bike but be unhappy about it. And sure enough he bought the bike and took it home and the next day came back and wanted a refund. He claimed it didn't shift right or something (suntour, what do you expect). Anyway, I knew right away that it was buyers remorse and since we had a no returns policy on bikes, especially closeouts, I convinced him to let us check the shifting and make sure it was OK and sent him on his way. The bike, for all intents and purposes, was unridden. Let me repeat that - he had not actually ridden the bike. Anyway, this went on for a week or two and each time he would bring in his pristine spotless bike and claim it wouldn't shift correctly when it got muddy, so we asked him to bring the bike in EXACTLY how it was when it started acting up. Don't clean it, don't do anything to it, just bring it in. So he left and came back a couple days later. I was in the back entering inventory into the system when one of the managers came back to get the Polaroid to snap a picture. I asked what was going on and he just smirked and walked off. I then heard jeering and laughing and he brought the photo back of the cogs with globs of mud that appeared to have been thrown onto them. So I stroll out there and sure enough the entire bike is spotless except for the globs of red Georgia clay that had been applied by hand to the cogs.

So, if you're not trolling, then that is my next guess on the office pool - hesitant buyer will have remorse and always wonder if they should have done something else.


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

Excellent point IF52 I remember a customer like that back in the day.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

IF52:

First, I apologize for taking you wrong. Based upon the interesting story that you have just posted, I'm in total agreement with your reasoning. However, being a perfectionist, I always pursue everything I purchase intensively-because, I strive to become as knowledgeable as possible-to avoid becoming unhappy. I believe that I could be happy with either the Ritchey Ascent Comp or the Waterford PDG but, my nature of being a perfectionist, makes me want to do my best to try to determine which of these two bikes would be the better overall bike? I mean, if I were comparing apples to oranges, such as comparing a Ford Mustang GT with a Corvette Z06-then, it would be easy to pick the classier and much higher performing Corvette Z06 over the more common Mustang GT. But, regarding the two bikes in question, I can see that a clear distinction between these isn't so easy. This is due to the fact that hardly any information is available, pertaining to the Waterford PDG MTB. So maybe, there isn't a better bike in this case-but rather, just two good bikes that is a matter of just picking the one that fits the best, rides the best, and pleases my eye the most?

If it were possible to get any Ritchey bike owners on this forum to report their experiences with their Ritchey bikes-then, this would benefit me in determining how good or bad these bikes might be? I know about Suntour PRO stuff and, in the past I have had very good luck with XC PRO. I knew that whenever I had purchased my new Bridgestone MB-1 in 1992, whenever Suntour was about ready to fold, I then, decided to start collecting NOS Suntour XC PRO parts-and, I do have plenty of these parts on hand. Therefore, if I should decide on buying the Waterford PDG MTB, I won't need to worry about running out of parts.

The Ritchey bike wouldn't bother me too much, if the parts for both the chainstay u-brakes and the late 1980's Shimano XT 6 speed rear cassette sprockets would not be too hard to acquire? And, I hate to sound like a broken record about the rear u-brakes-but, since these are now obsolete on MTB's, and in view of reports I had read about what a pain these brakes were, does cause me to have some concerns as to whether or not, it would be wise to buy a bike with these brakes on it? But, everything else about the Ritchey bike appeals to me! So far, I haven't been able to find any specific information about the Shimano XT chainstay u-brakes?

One more thing-I am not a troller and I never have done such a thing! But, since this has been mentioned a few times in my thread, I'm getting the drift that this has evidently been a serious problem on this forum? I certainly don't want to be considered to be a troller! I just want to be a regular forum member just like anyone else. I admit that I'm particular and I'm obsessive at times regarding anything that I'm enthusiastic over-but, that's just me!

I hope that I haven't offended you by anything I might have said on this forum? If I did, I mean't no harm. I'll admit that I was stunned by some of the seemingly unnecessary criticizm I've received in my thread. I couldn't understand what I had done wrong to have deserved this at first? But, if this was just linked to thoughts that I might be a troller-then, I can understand everyone's animosity towards me? I just hope that I can become a member in good standing on this forum. I'm a peaceful person and it makes me feel bad to think that instead of making friends on this forum, I've become unpopular, which I regret. As a note, although I haven't joined any other bike forums, I have always made friends on some other forums-and, I have never experienced anything like I have initially, here on this forum. Somehow, I hope that this situation can be reversed as time marches on? Thanks!


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## nipsey (Apr 17, 2008)

mb2good said:


> Somehow, I hope that this situation can be reversed as time marches on? Thanks!


It can. Go away and let time march on.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Only if you shut the hell up.


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

I'm enjoying this thread much more now that I can't read what mb2good is saying! Yaaaay Ignore User option!


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## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

I'm going to help you.

Don't get either - 

A) They both suck

B) They really don't sell for much

C) Go buy a new Trek instead, you will thank me later

D) Old bikes suck


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## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Only if you shut the hell up.


Damn, you rule.


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## djmuff (Sep 8, 2004)

I haven't chimed in yet, so... (not that I can add to this tumor-like thread)

Dude, look at the basics. The Waterford was recommended early on. There comes a point where you have to sack up and buy one. Or both. You should be able to get both for much less than $1000 for the pair. Ascents are cool bikes but not US made and don't bring big money. Waterford MTBs are also really cool, usually have gorgeous paint jobs, and are made in the US. They are pretty darn rare, but don't bring big money either because though they are nice bikes there just isn't a huge demand for them. Waterford road bikes get much more attention. The best thing you could do is post some photos. Especially after purchasing one or both.

Oh, and parts are available on ebay. Stop being silly and worrying about parts. There are people here in need/want of much more scarce parts then random Suntour or U-brake parts and they aren't worried or whining.


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## Matt H. (Sep 14, 2004)

For centuries, philosophers have pondered the paradox of Buridan’s Ass. Placed exactly midway between two identical stacks of hay, this theoretical donkey would be consumed by indecision and would surely starve. 

I’m reminded of that as I read this thread. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan's_ass


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Matt H. said:


> For centuries, philosophers have pondered the paradox of Buridan's Ass. Placed exactly midway between two identical stacks of hay, this theoretical donkey would be consumed by indecision and would surely starve.
> 
> I'm reminded of that as I read this thread.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan's_ass


yep. all for a bike that will be occasionally ridden around the neighborhood.

the reason a good discussion here is a waste of everybody's time is because you are not planning to use the bike in a way that is even remotely similar to what they were built for.

Pick the one that matches your favorite loafers the best.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

mb2good said:


> Rumpfy:
> 
> 1)Are your Ritchey bikes the "P" series?
> 
> ...


1) Yes.

2) Why should I? Mine is a rider P-series that gets ridden and raced hard. You're looking at a clean (albeit entry level) Ascent that will see bike paths at best. Different worlds.

3) You aren't.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

MrOrange:

I saw the picture of the chainstay u-brakes that you had posted in the Official(Tom)Ritchey Picture Thread. That picture told me a lot about these brakes and helped me a great deal. The Shimano brakes appeared to be much simpler than some of the other types of chainstay u-brakes I've seen. Now I see why it was stated that the rear u-brakes wouldn't be much of a problem in the type of riding that I'll be doing.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

MrOrange:

If what you are saying is true-then, why do you put up with owning your nice older Ritchey bike?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

mb2good said:


> MrOrange:
> 
> If what you are saying is true-then, why do you put up with owning your nice older Ritchey bike?


He sold it. Buyer's remorse.


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## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

mb2good said:


> MrOrange:
> 
> If what you are saying is true-then, why do you put up with owning your nice older Ritchey bike?


A) You must be mistaken.

B) I do not own a Ritchey, I sold it awhile ago. It didn't taste like a penny, so off it went.

C) Maybe you should listen to SFGirl.


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## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> He sold it. Buyer's remorse.


Wish I sold it to . . .


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## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> He sold it. Buyer's remorse.


Where's Doug Lexington when you need him?

Hell, even Crazy Fred would be nice.


----------



## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

mb2good said:


> IF52:
> 
> If it were possible to get any Ritchey bike owners on this forum to report their experiences with their Ritchey bikes-then, this would benefit me in determining how good or bad these bikes might be?
> 
> ...


All of these don't matter. Period. They don't matter. You have stated you are only going to pose around the neighborhood. What difference does it make. You will NEVER wear out any of the parts. You probably won't even ever wear the mold whiskers off the tires. EVER.

And as to which rides better, that is for you to decide - period. I used to sell Ritchey, we sold dozens of them per year. I had a chance to ride several of them. I don't like them as much as my IF or my Fats. So for me I would already take a pass on the Ritchey. I've not ridden a PDG, so I can't speak to it. Ride them if you can and make up YOUR OWN mind.

Kind of like a train wreck huh?


----------



## ckevlar (Feb 9, 2005)

I think the real question is, which bike will match your biking outfit better?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

IF52 said:


> Kind of like a train wreck huh?


Oh yeah. Except it keeps going.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Fillet-brazed:

What difference does it make how a bike is ridden-in terms of just judging a bike upon it's own merits(Good or bad?). There are people who buy Corvette Z06's yet, they don't necessarily go out and road race them and beat the hell out of them. You might drive a truck also-but, not haul heavy loads in it-despite the truck being capable of carrying these loads. Whenever you walk into a showroom to buy a new MTB you judge that bike based upon what you are seeing and it's component and frame specifications-before you have even riden it like an MTB was designed to be ridden.

People also buy road bikes-but, never race them as they were designed to be raced. I only had asked the members here to give their opinions and knowledge about the two bikes I was considering and that's all. This had nothing to do with how these bikes might be ridden. The choice is mine on how I might ride my bike! The same is true for you folks! It doesn't matter how a bike is ridden-bikes can be judged just on their quality and whether they are a good, an average, or a bad bike. To each his own! I had only asked for some advice from this forum based upon whatever you might have known about the classic bikes I'm considering and already, you have judged me based upon the fact that I don't intend to ride my MTB like you do. What the heck is the difference? A bike is a bike! It can be ridden in any way a person might chose to ride it! What harm is there in my riding a bike differently than you do?


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

MrOrange:

I just went by the picture in the Official Tom ritchey Picture Thread of your Ritchey bike-so, I was unaware of you having sold this bike.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

ckevlar:

Well, you could be right? It's an idea anyway.


----------



## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

IF52:

Thanks for your comments. What you have said does make sense.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

mb2good said:


> IF52:
> 
> Thanks for your comments. What you have said does make sense.


he said what I said. how come he doesn't get the diatribe?


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

I think you just said it best "a bike is a bike!". So whats the issue? Honestly, you got "facts", we gave you opinions what more do you need? It just seems like a conversation with a child who just keeps saying "but why?" to anything you say. I'm sure you could see that. Again either bike regardless of brake position will be more than capable of handling the riding you plan to do with it.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Fillet-brazed said:


> he said what I said. how come he doesn't get the diatribe?


He's 
got
a
special
place
in
his
robotic
heart
for
you,
FB.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

sfgirlonbike said:


> He's
> got
> a
> special
> ...


I was going to say its because FB is an a$$hole, but your answer makes more sense.

MTBR VRC. Robots and a$$holes.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> he said what I said. how come he doesn't get the diatribe?


Because I'm older than you. From me it's sage advice. From you it's brash


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

IF52:

That's correct! Seniority rules!


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

*here you go..*

Your possible Ascent looks like this no doubt...I added the pic of the Ascent Comp just to make you ask more questions (none of which will be answered). I also have a Schwinn PDG 90 but it's not a Waterford so you don't get to see it.

Do us a favor..Download the pic of the Red and Black Ascent, post it in your scrapbook and right an essay about why you are being so F'ing anal about choosing a bike. I for one would NEVER sell you ANY bike at ANY price (well maybe thats a lie )..But I would make you sign a release from all future contact and then get a restraining order to enforce it :madman: .

No, I won't answer any questions about how my bikes ride except that they ride fine....


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

da'Hoov:

1)See, I knew that you must have been holding back on me. You should have come forward early on, with the picture of your beautiful Ascent Comp. I like it!
2)Are you kidding me-with those nice Ritchey bikes and a Series 90 PDG bike to boot, I find it hard to believe that you couldn't also, be anal about them?
3)I'll bet that whenever you had purchased that nice purple Ritchey bike, that you were probably pretty damn fussy about it too? Really, there's nothing wrong in being anal-because this just shows that you have great pride in whatever you own.
4)Okay, if you will, please tell me which bike you like better, the purple Ritchey or your Series 90 PDG? I'll beg if I have to?


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

1)"See, I knew that you must have been holding back on me."

Holding back on you? No, I just didn't (and still don't) give a sh*t.

2)" I find it hard to believe that you couldn't also, be anal about them? "

Not a bit, they are just bikes.

3) "I'll bet that whenever you had purchased that nice purple Ritchey bike, that you were probably pretty damn fussy about it too?"

Nope, I bought both bikes within 5 minutes of seeing them. It ain't rocket science..

4)"tell me which bike you like better, I'll beg if I have to?"

Beg away.. Like I said, they are both just bikes.


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

Oh, and just so you know, I have no desire to let you know how this one rode, either...



Nor the PDG 90 I have in the basement...

I think this thread should be locked and shut down...


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

Geez richie, at least mine doesn't have slicks..

.....how do you think the ride differs with the different style of tires? And do your gumwalls flex more than blackwalls? And have you ever experimented with different air pressures, how did the ride change? And if you aimed the seat down a bit would the ride feel different? How about if you put different grips on? What about when you don't use the straps on the pedals?....................

Please I'm looking only for facts, not opinions.


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

The bike is red and it has a U-brake under the chainstays. That is the only facts I can give.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

richieb;

Why is it a big problem to politely answer questions about your bikes? You have both a Ritchey and a similar Series 90 PDG to the Waterford PDG I'm interested in-yet, you won't share this information? Instead of a forum here, you'd think that you were a member of a Cult instead. I've never seen a forum like this one, where some members just don't want to share their knowledge? Is it so painful just to answer a few questions with factual answers-or, do you always operate in the attack mode, with newcomer's to this forum? I can't help not to be curious?


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

I think we need input from "mb2000good" 

what song is the verse "how long has this been goin on" from ?


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

*well actually....*



richieb said:


> The bike is red and it has a U-brake under the chainstays. That is the only facts I can give.


the fork is Black...does that change the handling characteristics? Would a Red one maybe make it handle better or worse? Would it change the aerodynamics?

Would it help to wax the U-brake to help shed the mud off it? Or maybe some silicone spray? Have you tried ArmorAll?

just the facts , please. Don't be shy, we should all share


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

mb2good,

You're probably a nice enough guy, genuinely mean no harm, and are a pillar of the community, but the good doctor thinks you should focus less on the bikes, more on the riding, and ask yourself the tough question....














































Best wishes whatever the outcome may be.

Steve


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

da'Hoov:

You keep making statements about how long this has been going on-yet, you have wasted much time in this thread just continually running in the attack mode! Don't you realize that all you had to do from the very beginning was to try to answer my questions with facts-instead of continually trying to ridicule me.

I hate to have to point this out to you-but, above you had asked Richie at least, six questions-then, you told him that you were after facts, not opinions! This makes you somewhat of a hippocrit don't you think? Why? Well, you have resented me asking questions since the beginning of this thread-and, you have refused to give me any factual answers-despite my requesting facts, in answer to my questions! Therefore, you are every bit as guilty as I am-because you ask plenty of questions too-and, you are determined to get facts and not opinions! What is the difference between me asking questions and you doing exactly the same thing? You are the pot calling the kettle black! Just think about what you've been doing? If it's proper for you to ask forum questions and to rightfully, expect to obtain factual answers-then, don't you think that it's unfair to criticize others(Like me!)because they are asking questions? Maybe this is your idea of fair play? Hopefully not? No offense intended-I just wanted you to open your eyes to see what you have been doing? If you think that you have been fair-then, there's nothing more to say?


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

eastcoaststeve:

1)You are right that it's not good to have an obsessive-compulsive personality-and, I do have this type of personality.
2)I do intend to focus less on the bikes and more on riding them-after I've picked one to purchase?
3)I'm probably more intense about these two bikes because, here in California, I've never seen any other Ritchie or Waterford PDG MTB's except the bikes I'm seeking to buy! And, because I only have these bikes on hold for a short time-and I need to decide soon to purchase one of them, there's not much time left. Also, I've become frustrated on this forum due to some members not being willing to share much, if any factual information about their bikes! I see no reson for their negative attitudes? I have always been able to get along with people-then, I came to this forum and wham, I got it right in the kisser! If I'm guilty of doing something wrong, I'd bend over backwards to correct this?
4)I appreciate your comments and the information that you've posted here! Your point was well taken.


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

Mr mb2good - You're on my Ignore list - I can't read anything you write except for the first 5 words.

I think it's time for you to find a new resource for the information/facts/guidance you seek. You are clearly not fitting in here in the VRC forum.

Bye

rb


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

*hmmmmmmmmm?*



mb2good said:


> da'Hoov:
> 
> You keep making statements about how long this has been going on-yet, you have wasted much time ........................... above you had asked Richie at least, six questions-then, you told him that you were after facts, not opinions! ....................... Therefore, you are every bit as guilty as I am-........ What is the difference between me asking questions and you doing exactly the same thing? ...........You are the pot calling the kettle black!...................... I just wanted you to open your eyes to see what you have been doing? If you think that you have been fair-then, there's nothing more to say?


satire :thumbsup:

noun 
witty language used to convey insults or scorn; "he used sarcasm to upset his opponent"; "irony is wasted on the stupid"; "Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own"--Jonathan Swift [syn: sarcasm]

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University. 
Cite This Source


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

MrOrange:

Following is a link to the only picture of a true, 1991 Waterford PDG mountain bike, that I know of. The page is from the 1991 Paramount catalog. The bike I'm considering is exactly the same as the bike shown in upper right hand section of this page-along with a short description just below this picture.:

http://www.trfindley.com/flschwinn_1991_2000/1991PmntPg04.html


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

da'Hoov:

Since we have evidently been playing a game of "cat and mouse", I'll admit that you've been a very good cat and I've been a very poor mouse! How about a truce?


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## hairstream (Apr 20, 2008)

oh, brother... < face palm >


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

naive 

adjective 
1. marked by or showing unaffected simplicity and lack of guile or worldly experience; "a teenager's naive ignorance of life"; "the naive assumption that things can only get better"; "this naive simple creature with wide friendly eyes so eager to believe appearances" [ant: sophisticated] 
2. of or created by one without formal training; simple or naive in style; "primitive art such as that by Grandma Moses is often colorful and striking" [syn: primitive] 
3. inexperienced 
4. lacking information or instruction; "lamentably unenlightened as to the laws" [syn: uninstructed] 
5. not initiated; deficient in relevant experience; "it seemed a bizarre ceremony to uninitiated western eyes"; "he took part in the experiment as a naive subject" [syn: uninitiate]

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University. 
Cite This Source


----------



## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

mb2good said:


> MrOrange:
> 
> Following is a link to the only picture of a true, 1991 Waterford PDG mountain bike, that I know of. The page is from the 1991 Paramount catalog. The bike I'm considering is exactly the same as the bike shown in upper right hand section of this page-along with a short description just below this picture.:
> 
> http://www.trfindley.com/flschwinn_1991_2000/1991PmntPg04.html


Could you please give me the contact information for the Waterford. While you're himing and hawing about which bike to buy, I've already decided I want that one. Based on that photo alone. Now go have fun riding your Ritchey around the block.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

muddybuddy:

1)I won't be able to give you the contact information for the Waterford bike, until I have decided not to buy this bike. If I'll be picking the Ritchey bike-then, I'll give you this information.
2)BTW, I don't currently own a Ritchey bike to ride around the block.


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

"I think we've got _him_ exactly where he wants_ us_."


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

Mb2 seriously you say you are looking for facts. We have given you opinions, thats what we've got. Noone here is the know all be all, okay? You ask how does x bike ride? Well my experience may vary from say one of the west coast guys because we ride different terrain. You see? On a path, in the street the bikes may ride the same, depends on the bikes set up. Which obviously we can't see and can't give our input.Now as far as this not being a forum but a cult, come sit and drink the Kool-Aid.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Holy cow! All this over $500 worth of bikes? You'd think this was a debate between a Fat Chance and a Klein. :???:


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

mb2good said:


> richieb;
> 
> Why is it a big problem to politely answer questions about your bikes? You have both a Ritchey and a similar Series 90 PDG to the Waterford PDG I'm interested in-yet, you won't share this information? Instead of a forum here, you'd think that you were a member of a Cult instead. I've never seen a forum like this one, where some members just don't want to share their knowledge? Is it so painful just to answer a few questions with factual answers-or, do you always operate in the attack mode, with newcomer's to this forum? I can't help not to be curious?


He gave you a solid answer. Accurate facts about the bike. Black and white answers.
You keep asking questions like 'how does it ride' and 'which one should I choose'. Those are touchy feely questions with no correct answer.

And yes, we attack newcomers to this forum. The slower they are, the longer it takes them to catch on. We're at seven pages, guess how well you're doing.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

hairstream said:


> oh, brother... < face palm >


Haha, nice sig LH.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

chiefmiguel:

Thanks for giving me the facts. I was always willing to accept that you guys had given me all of the information that you had. I just assumed that probably everyone just didn't want to come forward with any facts. I just couldn't tell for sure? In any event, I appreciate your telling me this. Maybe I had read too much into this forum believing that the knowledge that I was looking for was definately here. All of us are just humans and now I fully understand. I was expecting this knowledge to come forth like a waterfall. I'll make do with the information already provided from this forum. I apologize to everyone for putting unnecessary pressure on you, in my quest for information. Thanks to all of you who had contributed the available information in my thread. The waters are calm now!


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## Zendog13 (Nov 6, 2007)

And here I was thinking I would have nothing to do this morning while waiting for the laundry to finish. Two cups of Kona Vanilla Macadamia Nut coffee, 3 slices of cake and a trip to the bathroom later I made it to page 7. 
I suppose I should be constructive though...well I have a set of brand new Ritchey cantilever brakes in purple in my stash box at the shop. Never used them. But the color is nice. Choose purple. Not violet. Purple.


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

Time to let this one go...


I PM'd mb2good last night in hopes of bringing this train wreck to a peaceful end and I think after you read his reply you'll see he means no harm...(yes, I checked with him before posting his PM and he's cool with anything that helps calm the waters), so....





Re: Hope This Helps 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoaststeve
mb2good,

I'm going to try to help you understand the forum regulars...


The regulars on this forum are very protective of their community and tend to be hard on new comers (especially if they sense something is amiss), but after the initial trial by fire if the newbie sticks around, makes some attempt at adding value to the forum, posts pictures of cool bikes, and treads lightly, things usually work themselves out and everyone benefits.

As far as gaining additional insight into your purchase from forum members, I think they've given all you are likely to get (good or bad, pushing the issue will only make it worse).

My suggestion, and I mean this with all due sincerity, is to close your eyes and imagine yourself riding a mountain bike and having a great time...look down and see which one it is...open your eyes and buy the one you imagined.

Facts will never truely quantify the how and why of which bike is the "right" one...it's personal, and different for everyone. Don't be afraid to choose...be excited, pick the one that makes you the happiest, and ride it however you see fit.

In the end, all that matters is the smile on your face.

Best wishes and good luck,

Steve 


Steve:

Thank you very much for giving me some insight regarding the forum regulars. I have felt all along that something was wrong-or, otherwise just something I didn't understand.

I'm going to calm down and try not to be offended by any of the resentment and attacks that I had received from some of the forum members.

I'm going to follow your advice to the letter to try to unravel everything that has gone wrong and will tread lightly and will eventually post some pictures of cool bikes. Maybe things will get better soon. It's worth a try.

I don't know if I'll be able to follow your formula for picking one of the bikes I'm looking at-but, your reasoning sounds good. You know, maybe I had placed too much emphasis on thinking that an Ritchey Ascent Comp bike was a pretty special bike? However, although there seems to be a few forum members who like these bikes-they don't seem to rave about them. I'm thinking that outside of California, where I live, Ritchey bikes must be much more plentiful and are more easily acquired?

Although I haven't made my final decision yet, if, after inspecting and riding both of the bikes in question, I'm probably going to lean more towards buying the Waterford PDG MTB-in view of it's rarity? In all of the research that I have done on the web and on the forum, there just wasn't any of these bikes to be found anywhere. Yet, I do know that they are well made bikes!

I know that you are a nice person Steve-and, I appreciate the kindness you have shown towards me and your effort in attempting to assist me in dealing with the regular forum members. It has been a pleasure to have met you! The thing that puzzled me on the forum was the fact that since I'm a non-violent person and I've never had problems getting along with people in the past- something happened to cause me to fail in getting along with some of the forum members. And, whenever the snowball started rolling down the hill, I could see that most of the forum members had taken a stand against me! So, I could see that they were being protective of each other. It didn't take long for me to realize that no matter how hard I tried, I was not going to be able to reason with them. Sheesh, I didn't join this forum to do battle in the arena with them. I'd much prefer to gain their friendship. Thanks again. Regards;

Mikal 






I know it's hard to resist taking shots at newbies, but sometimes discression really is the better part of valor (imo).


Hope this helps (everybody), 


Steve


----------



## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

Isn't that what I said a while back?

Post pics?

Hmmm?

ru dont risten!


----------



## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

So, $500 worth of different bikes?
Although that might start a true east/west war.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Go for the Waterford, it's pretty.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Go for the Ritchey, less gears means less possible maintenance. :|


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

I'm still a little foggy on what "facts" have not been presented!

I mentioned that the Paramount frames are reputed for cracking at the seat tube and that U-Brakes are maintenance free.

No to mention what everyone else has added. I think this is actually beyond "new guy hazing". I believe Mr Good is looking for a 20 page treatise regarding the pros and cons of each bike and a mathematical formula on which bike he should get.

It is simply an emotional choice. Facts will not help.

You can find replacement U-brake parts on ebay and at your local shop. Same with 6 speed cogs. 

Unfortunately, once that Paramount frame busts, it's finished.

Test-ride both bikes and buy the one you LIKE the most. There will always be spare parts to be had no matter which bike you choose.

There is no new information in this post. I just figured I'd condense my input for you to digest a little easier.

I have been a professional bike mechanic for 23 years. My opinions ARE facts! 

-richard


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

My money says he ends up buying....neither one! He'll go into an emotional and factual freefall and buy a Huffy beach Cruiser


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

A couple more facts since I think he is sincere:

The Ritchey is very well made. In fact, the Ascent Comp was made in the US and has some nice brazing to go along with its TIG welds. It is quite rare that you see a broken Ritchey. Tom had his frames figured out. I had an Ascent Comp set up for a commuter bike not too long ago. I thought it rode great and had a nice lively feel. Some say the U brake and its location is superior to the cantilever. Others might argue that especially if they ride in clay/muddy locations. I've never heard of a U brake eating a sidewall but I suppose it could happen if you were deaf and blind.

I don't know much about the Paramount other than that they were well made, but I don't know how they hold up. XC Pro is really nice stuff. I have ridden a PDG 70 and it had a nice feel.

If I could only have one I'd pick the PDG probably. Especially if I wasn't really going to ride it. There ya go.

Changing the subject, who is da Hoov? Is that Stan?


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Fillet-brazed:

Thank you very much for the great information. My nose is stuck on my computer screen because I'm really enjoying reading the facts that you have given me!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

richieb:

Thanks for taking the time to put together some very interesting facts and for neatly condensing what was said before. I appreciate your advice as well. But, I think that you are wrong regarding the 20 page treatise-as I was shooting for 21 pages(Hahaha)! Oh, and if I would have known from day one that you were a pro mechanic for 23 years, I would have thrown in the towel long before now!


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

I was being serious about the Waterford. If it looks like the one in that catalog, that is a pretty fly looking period paint job. I also think I would like how it rides based on the numbers, but that is just a guess, and applies to _my_ personal preference.


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

Looks like it's gonna be a looooooong winter...


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

IF52:

The Paramount bike I'm considering is the identical bike as shown in that 1991 Paramount catalog-except the paint color is different. The main color is neon yellow with purple paint accents on both the fork and on the chainstays. Thanks for giving me your opinion.

Mikal


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

da'Hoov:

Well, of course I'll have to throw a Huffy beach cruiser into the mix-those are cool!


----------



## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

richieb:

Your advice concerning the U brakes on the chainstays was very interesting. I needed you to say that-because now, I know that the rear U-brakes aren't the monster that some inexperienced folks had indicated in my research. I was only down on U-brakes because of all of the negative reports given about them, But, you have convinced me that these brakes aren't going to be problematical for me, in view of light riding I'll be doing. Thanks.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

sfgirlonbike:

Thanks, that's a very good point, about less maintenance with the 6 speed gears on the Ritchey. Like you, I do like the Ritchey a great deal. I appreciate your input.


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Er. okay.


----------



## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Fillet-brazed:

1)Was it true that the Suntour chainstay U-brakes were a more complicated set-up than the Shimano XT U-brakes that were also installed on the Ritchey Ascent Comp bikes?
2)Although I fancy the Ritchey Ascent Comp, especially now that I know the chainstay U-brakes aren't a problem, at this time, I'm planning to choose the Paramount PDG. But, as soon as the bike dealer will get these bikes down from his ceiling, once I've compared them side by side and have ridden these bikes, I'll then, be able to pick the best overall bike for me.
3)If I had my way, I'd buy both bikes-but, my wife says no way! So, I can only pick one!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

sfgirlonbike:

Thanks!

Mikal


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

mb2good said:


> Fillet-brazed:
> 
> 1)Was it true that the Suntour chainstay U-brakes were a more complicated set-up than the Shimano XT U-brakes that were also installed on the Ritchey Ascent Comp bikes?
> 2)Although I fancy the Ritchey Ascent Comp, especially now that I know the chainstay U-brakes aren't a problem, at this time, I'm planning to choose the Paramount PDG. But, as soon as the bike dealer will get these bikes down from his ceiling, once I've compared them side by side and have ridden these bikes, I'll then, be able to pick the best overall bike for me.
> 3)If I had my way, I'd buy both bikes-but, my wife says no way! So, I can only pick one!


The Suntour/Cunningham brake is most definitely more complicated to set up than a U brake. With the complexity though comes more tuning options. I'd prefer a WTB roller/toggle cam over either though. For pure simplicity however, the U brake is great and works well. My Ascent Comp had front and rear cantis. I think 88 was the year that the U brake was popular. Look at oldmountainbikes.com for lots of Ritchey catalogs and info.

You check out the fillet-brazed Ritcheys (ie Super Comp, Annapurna, Team Comp, Everest) to truly see the beauty of a Ritchey. The Ascent Comp is kinda the poor man's Ritchey. Like a Porsche 924.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> . I'd prefer a WTB roller/toggle cam over either though.


Lets not convolute this whole thing. :nono:


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Er. okay.


Just accept his gratitude for making fun of him.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Lets not convolute this whole thing. :nono:


haha. now that he's graduated past his first hang up I thought I'd throw him another.


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Changing the subject, who is da Hoov? Is that Stan?


Yup, it's me. Thought I'd get a little separation between my postings here and my eBay biz. Plus it's a new year so the new ID sounded fun.

Who nicknamed me the HOOVER anyway? I think it was richieb but I couldn't find it in a search.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

*this is way beyond facepalm*

epic


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## pint (Oct 6, 2008)

I still can't believe this thread is getting so much attention?


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Fillet-brazed:

1)Thanks for giving me the facts on the U-brakes.

2)Well, if the Ritchey in question was at least an Team Comp or an Everest-then, I would have a harder time not choosing the Ritchey!

3)It sounds like in your heart you have a soft spot for Ritchey bikes? There must be quite a few people on the mtbr forum that idolize the Ritchey bikes-since I reviewed all of the photos in the Tom Ritchey Picture Thread. If I had a choice in a Ritchey bike, I don't think that I'd want anything lighter than a P-22 and a P-23 might be light enough?, and I was surprised to see how many ptctures were posted of the Ritchey bikes.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Yes, lots of pictures of Ritcheys. I guess if I were to use your powerful logic reasoning skills that would mean that they are more popular and therefore more collectible since more people want them and more people own them and more people talk about them.

Wait til BP gets back. He has a bridge to sell ya.

Did you decide between U brakes or roller cams? I mean, you really can't decide on the PDG without even considering the efficacy of the three braking systems that are presented here. A full evaluation is both warranted and justified. How will you decide which parts to add to your NOS collection?


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## hairstream (Apr 20, 2008)

Man. Whatever you do, don't pick the Paramount!!! ...I mean the Ritchey.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

that was cold blooded 


I love it


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

sfgirlonbike:

You are right, that with so many pictures of Ritchey's and since more people appear to be more aware of these bikes and, obviously are into collecting them, it would seem likely that the Ritchey's are more popular.

I'll have to settle for whatever brakes are on whichever bike I'll be buying. The PDG has canti's and, I believe the Ritchey has the Shimano XT U-brakes? However, I won't know until I can inspect the bike up close-since they are hanging up high on a ceiling and they aren't going to be taken down until the end of this week for me to view.

Parts: I have plenty of NOS Suntour XC PRO stuff for the PDG-but, no Shimano parts to fit the Ritchey bike. I'd have to obtain whatever parts are needed off of Ebay?


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## sho220 (Aug 3, 2005)

We're only 7 days into 2009 and I believe we've already got a strong contender for the most retarded thread of the year. I vote that you don't buy either, but instead save your money for counseling. You've obviously got issues that keep you from making a decision and committing to it. These are bikes we're talking about. Not an earth shattering decision for most folks...like was said above...this thread is epic facepalm x100000000000.....


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

> I'd buy both bikes-but, my wife says no way! So, I can only pick one!


What website did you consult before getting married?


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## cousineddie (Oct 23, 2008)

KDXdog said:


> What website did you consult before getting married?


I think that went something like this........

"I'm considering marrying Miss X and Miss Y. Both are nearly NOS with very little use...:eekster: .uh I better quit now


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

arranged marriage, didn't have a choice.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

stan4000bikes:

Yes, my analytical powers were evidently on the blink, since I was considering marrying Miss X or Miss Y..........................but, instead I ended up marrying Miss Z! I guess the 30 page treatise that I had submitted, failed to work!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

KDXdog:

I can't reveal that website on the grounds that may tend to incriminate me...........................!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

sho220:

Things that are important to one person might not have any significance at all, to another. There are many people in this world who also are perfectionists and can get obsessed about whatever hobbies they are fanatical about. There are plenty of forums out there based upon folks who are like this. I'm not claiming this to be right or wrong...................just that I have always wanted to collect mint things and to know everything possible about them. I've been to clubs where people were the same way regarding cars, boats, airplanes, trucks, antiques, pets, or whatever.


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

It's all good!:thumbsup: 

By the way, go with the Ritchey. 

And I've run u-brakes on 2 bikes, (still do) without any problems.


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## sho220 (Aug 3, 2005)

mb2good said:


> sho220:
> 
> Things that are important to one person might not have any significance at all, to another. There are many people in this world who also are perfectionists and can get obsessed about whatever hobbies they are fanatical about. There are plenty of forums out there based upon folks who are like this. I'm not claiming this to be right or wrong...................just that I have always wanted to collect mint things and to know everything possible about them. I've been to clubs where people were the same way regarding cars, boats, airplanes, trucks, antiques, pets, or whatever.


I don't see what being a so-called perfectionist has to do with any of this. You're _buying_ the bike, not _building_ it.  You're obsessively indecisive. :thumbsup:


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

You know what MB2good? You should really test your skills and challenge yourself this new year. What you oughta do (and we would be very excited to see) is buy some tubes and build your own bike!! That is a true measure of obsession and talent. I'm sure with your research skills you would learn how to weld in no time. Tig welding? Lugged? Fillet brazed? The possibilities are just endless! Think about it - a dream come true for the ultimate bike fan.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

sho220:

I can't argue with your reasoning-because it's true that I'm buying a bike and not building one. However, it's been a long time since I had ever looked into reading about the classic Ritchey bikes and Paramount PDG bikes. This is the reason that I wanted to compare these two bikes extensively, before choosing one of them. I didn't want to buy blind. I felt that the more knowledge that I could gain regarding these bikes would assist me in choosing wisely. I've never met a perfectionist who didn't want to intensively persue his hobby of interest.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

KDXdog:

Thanks! I appreciate your opinion. That's good news about your experiences with the U-brakes. Some of the other members here have also given me positive opinions regarding U-brakes.

What are the bikes you own with the rear chainstay U-brakes(Ritchey's )or?


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

*sticky this thread*

:lol:


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Jeez, can a mod please kill this thing.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

sfgirlonbike:

You have made a good point for sure. However, there are still enough good classic bikes out there for me to pick from, which would please me. It just takes awhile to find mint old bikes. In view of this, I wouldn't want to get into building a bike.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

IF52 said:


> Jeez, can a mod please kill this thing.


It should really die on its own soon. I hope.


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

One way or another, Mt Good, you'll have to decide pretty soon, or someone else will buy one of the bikes, or both, and make you decision for you...

In fact, I'm betting some of us are already looking for them for any number of reasons.

I think it would be funny if they sold while the never-ending pondering was happening...funny-ironic and funny-Haha all at the same time.

Sometimes, when it comes to rare things like vintage mountain bikes, hesitation and over-thinking can only lead to losing the bike to someone. it takes a steady hand and confidence to land the big bikes...

You are now off my ignore list on a trial run, but really, heed this advice, or you risk not getting ANY bike at all.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

richieb:

I'm going to heed your advice-since I know that you are absolutely right! Thanks!


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## cousineddie (Oct 23, 2008)

IF52 said:


> Jeez, can a mod please kill this thing.


It can't be killed.:yikes:


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

richieb said:


> O
> I think it would be funny if they sold while the never-ending pondering was happening...funny-ironic and funny-Haha all at the same time.


I'd buy both bikes just to watch that unfold.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> I'd buy both bikes just to watch that unfold.


game on!


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

richieb said:


> Sometimes, when it comes to rare things like vintage mountain bikes, hesitation and over-thinking can only lead to losing the bike to someone. it takes a steady hand and confidence to land the big bikes...


Sometimes if you act too quickly though, you can wind up with the wife's foot up your behonkus :eekster:


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

hollister said:


> game on!


First one to post actual pictures of Mr Good's prospects before he buys one or the other wins a prize :thumbsup:

Mr. Good, you get to judge this competition


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

IF52:

Heck, I haven't even acted yet and already I've been dealing with the wife's foot up my behonkus!


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## pint (Oct 6, 2008)

This is getting as bad as network TV! FWIW - If anyone finds one or both of these bikes before Mr Goodbar, I would chip in to help the cause. Just shoot me a PM! :ihih:..


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## josegraff (Nov 7, 2004)

Is this The Opinionated Cyclist?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

mb2good...would you mind telling us where these bikes are located? Thanks.


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## haaki (Sep 15, 2008)

*I know*

I'm hoping one of you junkies finds them and buys them both
3 days and 200 plus posts
JUST BUY THE ONE YOU LIKE THE BEST

I'm a Cal Guy, that would mean Ritchey, but TMFO


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

haaki said:


> I'm hoping one of you junkies finds them and buys them both
> 3 days and 200 plus posts
> JUST BUY THE ONE YOU LIKE THE BEST
> 
> I'm a Cal Guy, that would mean Ritchey, but TMFO


yeah.. but which one would you recommend based on your experience?


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## haaki (Sep 15, 2008)

*well since I used to own*

one of the original 'custom order-frame only' lugged Schwinn MTBs from 1981 and also rode plenty of Ritcheys I can say the Schwinn was pretty much a knock off. Even the fork was frighteningly Ritchey-esque. and yes I got the Schwinn cause I couldn't afford a Ritchey and had a friend who worked at a Schwinn Shop and got it for me @ cost.

So ride quality - Ritchey
MTB Provenance - Ritchey
Schwing Factor - Ritchey (your results may vary)
Rarity - Schwinn


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

colker1 said:


> yeah.. but which one would you recommend based on your experience?


Haha!


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## sho220 (Aug 3, 2005)

mb2good said:


> sho220:
> 
> I can't argue with your reasoning-because it's true that I'm buying a bike and not building one. However, it's been a long time since I had ever looked into reading about the classic Ritchey bikes and Paramount PDG bikes. This is the reason that I wanted to compare these two bikes extensively, before choosing one of them. I didn't want to buy blind. I felt that the more knowledge that I could gain regarding these bikes would assist me in choosing wisely. I've never met a perfectionist who didn't want to intensively persue his hobby of interest.


A true perfectionist wouldn't have misspelled pursue...


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

sho220:

That's what I get for being a one finger typist who had too much to drink yesterday! From now on it's no more beer until after I'm done typing my threads!


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

mb2good said:


> sho220:
> 
> That's what I get for being a one finger typist who had too much to drink yesterday! From now on it's no more beer until after I'm done typing my threads!


choosing bikes is a serious job man.. don't mix booze and high end mtbs. so, did you make a decision? don't haste yourself. take things slowly.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

walnut creek?


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

colker1 said:


> choosing bikes is a serious job man.. don't mix booze and high end mtbs. so, did you make a decision? don't haste yourself. take things slowly.


Thanks for the friendly advice!


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

Juggernaut!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

*I'm back! And, I made my decision!*

Hello everyone!

I just wanted to report back here to indicate that I had made my decision regarding which Mt. Bike to pick between the Ritchey Ascent Comp and the Waterford Schwinn PDG. I finally chose the Waterford and I'm 100% pleased with my choice!

I'm not ready to post some pictures of this Waterford yet-because I'm going to be changing a few things on this bike first. But, I've been involved with correcting some major home plumbing problems etc. and, this is the reason I hadn't done this yet, as well as not yet getting back on this forum to tell all of you about this bike!

All I can report at this time, is the fact that I had confirmed the actual serial number on this bike, with Richard Schwinn, to be a genuine, 1990 Waterford built MTB frame-which was the only way this frame could have been acquired in 1990-91, as complete Waterford MTB bikes were not offered at that time!

I want to thank all of the members here for putting up with my being so indecisive regarding choosing one of these bikes-and, for your patience in tolerating my long thread here! But, all of your input here(Both, positive and negative!)had helped me greatly, in finally selecting the Waterford Schwinn MTB! I took all of your negative criticism in a positive way, as contructive criticism-and, this made me see what I needed to see in comparing and eventually, selecting the right bike! I will post pictures of this bike in a new thread-so as not to lengthen this original thread any longer than it already is(Hahaha!)! Amen!


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Oh no!


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

this thread is worthless without pics.


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## dick (Dec 13, 2006)

God, don't encourage him.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

dick said:


> God, don't encourage him.


i believe we should now discuss the set up of this bike. carefully..
cause we know buying a bike is just the beginnning. how to set up brakes, seat height etc..
imagine how unprecise a seat height can be? we need to nail this... carefully/


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

I heard that the price of vintage Ritcheys just shot up astronomically because there is a cartel controlling the sales of such fine bikes. Waterfords, on the other hand, have been depressed due to its immunity from the West Coast vs. East Coast gang warfare.

Just a rumor...although I've also heard that everything on the internet is true.

Damn, I'd sure like to find myself a Ritchey.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

bushpig:

You are right about this thread being worthless without pictures! I'll try to solve this problem with pictures as soon as possible!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

sfgirlonbike:

Well, there should be some Ritchey bikes in some of San Francisco's finest bike shops? Or, are there many of those shops out of business now?

Although I don't remember the name of the real nice bike shop I went to in SF several years ago, I was very impressed with their variety of custom MTB's they had in inventory!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Well, it seems that my thread posted yesterday has disappeared? I was going to edit it to indicate that regarding the Waterford Built PDG MTB frame that my 1990 bike was built upon, I learned that approximately, only 100 of these were produced.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*I Would have Guessed Less*

100 MTB frames a year sounds like a lot from Waterford. There was almost no demand and they were busy building a few hundred road frames a year that there was a high demand for.


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

well that's 5 minutes of my life I'll never get back...............


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Could've warned you.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

1)Actually, the total of 100 Waterford frames was for both, 1990 and 1991 production.

2)The lack of demand for these Waterford frames was mostly due to Schwinn's lousy marketing. Right after offering these custom built Waterford paramount PDG MTB frames, Schwinn began importing their new MOS PDG Series MTB's with the bent chainstays. The top of the line Model was the Series 90. Most buyer's thought that they were getting a genuine Waterford built bike whenever they bought the Series 90 PDG bike. They were very disgruntled to learn that these MTB's were not built at the Waterford, Wisconsin plant! In any event all of this confusion had resulted in lack of demand for all of these Paramount PDG MTB's! Over the years, Schwinn Company finally folded!


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

D'oh! I was rooting for the Ritchey! Man, should of gone for the Ritchey.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Yeah, he screwed it up.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

I liked the Ritchey too. But, the Ritchey turned out to have a few defects but, the Waterford was perfect! If the Ritchey would have been as pristine as the Waterford-then, I would have felt like buying both of these bikes!


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Ok, no more posts until you have a picture of the final product.


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

As someone else recently has stated:


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Manny would have bought the PDG as well.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

A-rod would have bought the Ritchey.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

I wonder what Barry Bonds would have picked?


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Bought both and mounted them on his barcalounger.


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

IF52 said:


> I wonder what Barry Bonds would have picked?


probably a KHS Biitch or a Morphine....


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

F$%^k the pics. This thread is no good without cookies.


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## Linoleum (Aug 25, 2008)

*lookie lookie*

Here's a picture of a waterford pen!


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Can you imagine agony he is experiencing during the photo shoot?


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## misterdangerpants (Oct 10, 2007)

View attachment 446839


Disclaimer: No animals were harmed during this posting.


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## cousineddie (Oct 23, 2008)

da'HOOV said:


> probably a KHS Biitch or a Morphine....


Wow.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

*Both those bikes blow...*

Buy a Potts off Ebay.

-Schmitty-


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Please don't kill the dog-as I will be posting some photos!


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

mb2good said:


> Please don't kill the dog-as I will be posting some photos!


I expect the same time and attention to detail on the build as you took on making the fricken' decision on which one to buy.


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

Well, the bike was already built by the bike shop where I had purchased it! So, I might just take some photos just as I had received this bike-then, take some additional photos later on, after I've made some minor changes.


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## haaki (Sep 15, 2008)

*and at that rate*



Rumpfy said:


> I expect the same time and attention to detail on the build as you took on making the fricken' decision on which one to buy.


maybe our grandkids can see the finished product

sfgirl - here's what you do. stuff your pockets with some cash.
Spend your weekends in West Marin, Fairfax, Ross, San Anselmo...
wait for some mom to ride up to the coffee shop, grocery store on her VRC that she is using as a townie
offer cash
repeat until someone says yes


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Good idea. I will be a panpusher.


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## kb11 (Mar 29, 2004)

I'd rather see pictures of the Ritchey


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Good idea. I will be a panpusher.


You already look homeless, it'll be perfect!


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

mb2good said:


> Well, the bike was already built by the bike shop where I had purchased it!


Oh sh!t!



mb2good said:


> So, I might just take some photos just as I had received this bike-then, take some additional photos later on, after I've made some minor changes.


Take the before photos for sure. But photo-document the changes as you make them. Then take after photos.


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## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

Wonder if he bought it at First Flight....LOL!


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## mb2good (Jan 2, 2009)

No, I did not by the bike at First Flight! I bought it here in California!


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## First Flight (Jan 25, 2004)

gm1230126 said:


> Wonder if he bought it at First Flight....LOL!


uuuhhhhhhh.........noooooo


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

girlonbike said:


> I'm not sure why there's a debate about u brakes! If you're not even going to be riding it, it's really moot!! If you want a show bike that is rare, then sell your MB-1 (since those were mass produced!) and get them both for a total of 2 bikes!


oh, the exclamations! this was lovely (!)


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## Boy named SSue (Jan 7, 2004)

yo-Nate-y said:


> oh, the exclamations! this was lovely (!)


Did you really just dig up a year and a half old post to make fun of its punctuation? Since when did the grammar police have a cold case squad?


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

this place continues to amaze...


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

we're snowed in, what can I say?


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

haha! give Nate a break. This link was brought up in a different thread.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm interthreadual.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Analysis paralysis.


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

My fault  




Serious lol material though.





.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

I'm here to help keep these very important threads alive.


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