# Thin Aluminum+Dent+Fridge+afternoon at the Beach = No Bueno



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

About two weeks ago I got this Klein adept

The top tube on frame and the fork show some dents and scars, specially a pretty serious Dent (7mm deep, 20mm long, 15mm wide) at the bottom of one of the fork legs .

So I was thinking...

No big deal I know how to fix it, I have don't in a bunch of times on many materials, even aluminum tubes with out any trouble...

Yeah right....:madman:

So I fill the fork leg with water (fill inmerced a the kitchen sink) and then seal the two holes (rack mount and lower vent) using a rubber band some plastic and a hose clamp and then place it on the freezer.









When we left to walk to dogs to the beach, for a few hours by the time we come back, I check the fork and the dent is gone,, Great.









then my girlfriend say "Yeah but is Broken here" 









Well she was right, the fork legs burst do to the eccesive pressure provided by the frozen water after expanding.









I take better pictures when the day light comes, but for now Be Afraid Very Afraid









Well mt Friend JPMorgen just call me (On Saturday) to tell me that He fix the crack welding a patch of aluminum over it, in fact he say that the six layers of paint on the klein fork were as thick as the aluminum wall on the forks, kind of scary if you ask me but I'm going to give them a try anyway.

tomorrow (Sunday) when I pick it up, I post pictures of his incredible work.


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## Smokebikes (Feb 2, 2008)

ut: :crazy: :skep:


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## scuppy (Nov 10, 2007)

You use water expansion to repair dents? What sort of pressure does that put on the tubing?


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

scuppy said:


> You use water expansion to repair dents? What sort of pressure does that put on the tubing?


Yes the principle is pretty basic, water tend to expand when frozen, sorry I have no idea of the ratio's and/or pressures.

My mistake that to now check it from time to time to avoid the sad consequences.

Take a look at this example using far more sophisticated method using a high pressure water source.

My friend JP Morgen is a old bicycle & motorcycle frame fabricator in san Francisco and for his two stroke expansion chambers he develop this rudimentary but also very efficient method to form flat pieces of 4130 plus is less turbulence inside the chamber for better combustion an higher performance.









Yes something things don't go so well.









But when it works the results are pretty amazing.

The other choice is to cut small pieces of metal on the bandsaw using molds like this.









Even then two method merge so complex curves can be achieve like in this case.









For sure JP is a man with a Plan.









he actually fix my damage fork by welding a patch on top of the damage part since the wall thickness of the tube was to slim to welded togheter with out melting it (he say)


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## verticult (Jan 18, 2005)

interesting post. The repair looks low enough to be out of any stress danger. I don't think the external patch was really needed but certainly is harmless. I am guessing the moto is a Ossa Phantom? looks like a bul swingarm and frame but the black cases are throwing me off.. what is it? nice pipe.


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## TacoMan (Apr 18, 2007)

I think the problem is that the frozen water spreads it's force along the full length of the tube because it does not flow well once it begins to harden. 

Using high pressure water, the force goes where there is the least resistance. In the the case of hydro-forming, the mold limits how far the material will expand.

Are you going to heat treat the fork again?


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

TacoMan said:


> I think the problem is that the frozen water spreads it's force along the full length of the tube because it does not flow well once it begins to harden.


You see TacoMan this is why I love this specific forum of MTBr, you guys are sharp, I just don't anything intelligent or relevant to say so I don't post much.

The main problem with this specific fork is that the Klein Adept was design to carry low mounted front racks so they have this "Pass through" connector tube (so water does not go in, or the tube get compress) that did not let the tube expand in a uniform fashion.



> Using high pressure water, the force goes where there is the least resistance. In the the case of hydro-forming, the mold limits how far the material will expand.


Yeah you are totally right again, I was just to Impaciente to deal with the whole "Hydroforming", but that as you see prove to be a big mistake.

Actually the technic the JP uses does not require any "Containment" molds, the whole magic is base on the way you cut the two flat shapes in the first place and how well they are welded togheter to avoid any bursting.



> Are you going to heat treat the fork again?


JP Tells me that he does not think is necesary, or at least is to much trouble for the little difference is going to make..


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

verticult said:


> interesting post. The repair looks low enough to be out of any stress danger. I don't think the external patch was really needed but certainly is harmless.


Well I guess my pretty nose is going to be the ultimate test subject on this fix.


> I am guessing the moto is a Ossa Phantom? looks like a bul swingarm and frame but the black cases are throwing me off.. what is it? nice pipe.


JP like to make his own motorcycle by hand, in fact he has a few of them rolling around already and a few other crazy project along the way, As far as i know they are mostly Vintage Japanese, well except for some "KTM" Pentons'










Here you can find a *Few Gallery's with some of his work*


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

How much would I kill for some hydroformed steel tubing!

Does anyone know if it's even possible?


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> How much would I kill for some hydroformed steel tubing!
> 
> Does anyone know if it's even possible?


The shapes you see at the top are made of two flat pieces of 4140 cro-molly TIG welded togheter (melted with out any rod added), I don't see why not you can not form a tubular shape (using "Constrain molds") then again I'm the one that fail trying to fix the Klein fork.

I ask JP and see what he thinks, then i write back on this posting,


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## verticult (Jan 18, 2005)

you can hydro form most any metal. You need a super high pressure pump (hydrostat) or some way to generate huge pressure. I don't think 4130 would lend itself to any drastic shapes however. That method used on the seamed pipe is super cool! 

Honda CR motor in a Maico frame. I am building a replica of the Kawasaki built by Steg Petterson that was the prototype for the F11M. fun stuff


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

verticult said:


> you can hydro form most any metal. You need a super high pressure pump (hydrostat) or some way to generate huge pressure.


You will laugh if you learn how simple is his "propulsion method", total "Garden variety".



> I don't think 4130 would lend itself to any drastic shapes however. That method used on the seamed pipe is super cool!


I'm being around him for years and I never seeing him working with round cromolly tubes, most be a reason or maybe he just find them boring.

Most of his "control bend" surface work is made with Dyes and small hydrolic press.

For example one of his "Two piece" double triple clamp" rigid bicycle forks.









On top of the female mold.









The end result of one of the halfs before being trim, gusset and welded.









JP's own race bike, the forks never got painted (on my suggestion) but even then he place 3th at the napa world cup on his age group in ~1998.









Much More photos *HeRe*



> Honda CR motor in a Maico frame. I am building a replica of the Kawasaki built by Steg Petterson that was the prototype for the F11M. fun stuff


That sounds about right, except the engine is all being re-work with new ports and Reed valves and everything.

the frame is also hand made of 4130 according to his own design and specific needs, but keeping it looking vintage.









Just look at the pictures on the links is a ton of interesting details all over the place.


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## Flyinpolack (Feb 6, 2008)

*mad skills!*

Great thread. Your buddy sure does know how to Fab! Those pipes are pretty sweet!

Hmm.. A Monocoque CroMo bike, how thin could you go & have it still strong enough to ride? 
It'd probably weigh 90 lbs. Just to do it, of course..:thumbsup:


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Flyinpolack said:


> Great thread. Your buddy sure does know how to Fab! Those pipes are pretty sweet!


He can not make them He can also ride them really well.


> Hmm.. A Monocoque CroMo bike, how thin could you go & have it still strong enough to ride?
> It'd probably weigh 90 lbs. Just to do it, of course..:thumbsup:


This bike and fork are from 19*8*5.









Another one a little later.









This frame is made of 4130 in two halfs .pay special attention to the telescopic stem running inside the headtube using a "Landing Gear" linkage to keep the bars straight.


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

*Modified Hayes Lever*

What's the story with the modified Hayes lever?

Thanks, Joel


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Clockwork Bikes said:


> What's the story with the modified Hayes lever?
> 
> Thanks, Joel


Better Ergonomics..









The idea is that if the lever blade is closer to the handlebars your finger don't need to be extend as much (at all, in fact) requiring less power and making you hands a lot less tired.

I totally agree with the principle (and I have a degree in Biomechanics) But I never got used to the feel of the lever so close to the grips.

The lever Rate of movement is far steeper so you have the same modulation, just on a much more step curve than the stock units.

Have you guys ever seeing or even better rode a JP Morgen stem...!?!?

He only made a few before softride release their own, incredible pieces of work and workmanship too.









A complete Hydrolic shock house inside the stem body, it work amazing on none suspension ready & touring bikes and tandems.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Hey, you reckon you can start another thread for the Morgen love-fest? I'd kinda just like to keep this about info on alternative forming techniques.


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> Hey, you reckon you can start another thread for the Morgen love-fest? I'd kinda just like to keep this about info on alternative forming techniques.


Sorry You are totally right..

Please show us you progress on this technic since I don't have that much to offer of my own.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Well, I now know that it's possible, and that you would more than likely have to anneal first, then post heat treat after forming.

All I'm really after is a ø35mm tube with a 35x45mm rectangular section in the middle, but I'm pretty sure the tooling cost would be completely unjustifiable.


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## buildyourown (Dec 1, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Well, I now know that it's possible, and that you would more than likely have to anneal first, then post heat treat after forming.
> 
> All I'm really after is a ø35mm tube with a 35x45mm rectangular section in the middle, but I'm pretty sure the tooling cost would be completely unjustifiable.


I've done some hydroforming in 4130 with great results. It was for an airplane. We machined the male forms from delrin and then formed the sheet over them. I don't think the tooling costs for what you are describing would really be that bad. Maybe $200-300 USD. Especially if you were willing to do some polishing yourself.

The issue I see would be wall thickness. My understanding of hydroforming with aluminum tubing is that they start with a custom butted tube that has thicker walls where they are going to increase the diameter. Otherwise I'd think you would end up with some very thin sections.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

buildyourown said:


> I've done some hydroforming in 4130 with great results. It was for an airplane. We machined the male forms from delrin and then formed the sheet over them. I don't think the tooling costs for what you are describing would really be that bad. Maybe $200-300 USD. Especially if you were willing to do some polishing yourself.
> 
> The issue I see would be wall thickness. My understanding of hydroforming with aluminum tubing is that they start with a custom butted tube that has thicker walls where they are going to increase the diameter. Otherwise I'd think you would end up with some very thin sections.


Would it be different forming sheet compared to a tube?

What I'd like to do, there isn't a dramatic increase in diameter, mostly shape, so I think starting out with a 0.9 or 1.2 tube would be fine (in theory)


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## buildyourown (Dec 1, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Would it be different forming sheet compared to a tube?
> 
> What I'd like to do, there isn't a dramatic increase in diameter, mostly shape, so I think starting out with a 0.9 or 1.2 tube would be fine (in theory)


I don't see why it would be any different. I think you would have a hard time with anything more brittle than straight up 4130. I've never bent any heat treated tubes but I can't imagine they go very far before running into issues.

Here's what I was thinking:
Make a 2 basic piece mold. This could easily be modeled in Solidworks and machined by any shop with decent software and 10 yo machines. Both sides would be the same. You could bolt the 2 halves together with a handful of cap screws. Weld caps onto the ends of the tube, one of them with a pipe fitting. Fill the tube with fluid and pump it up. Enerpac sells some pretty basic modular hydraulic pumps for less than $1000. I bet you could rig something with off the shelf stuff from the tool rental shop just to see if it works.
Of course, I would put this whole mess behind some sort of blast wall so I wouldn't kill myself when things went wrong.


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## gotboostedvr6 (Sep 1, 2008)

did this fork hold up?


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

I remember seeing his Softride-looking bike in Bicycling Magazine close to fifteen years ago. I thought that the dude was nuts. This is the sort of stuff that I miss about bikes from back in the day--the home-grown Frankenstein approach to trying to build a better ride. I still can't get excited over the stuff that Trek and Specialized put out, even though they are good bikes.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

This thread totally made my night. Cheers.


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## LIFECYCLE (Mar 8, 2006)

And mine!!


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