# Clipless or Platform Pedals for XC Racing?



## Robbieisbobert (Dec 22, 2007)

I've been riding XC for the past few years on platforms. Recently, I joined an XC mountain bike team and the coaches keep on pushing clipless pedals on me. They say that they will make me faster, better rider. I ask you now, MTBR, if their assertions warranted? Is there any statistical data that proves their point? Will I benefit greatly from clipless riding in the face of the dangers that they pose by being clipped in? I plan on racing with said team in March and April. If it matters at all, I can ride Shimano 520 pedals and Shimano clipless shoes or start riding 5-10 Impact 2's and good Azonic pedals.


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## kmorast (Jul 20, 2009)

I ride both pedals based on the type of riding I will be doing. For XC racing I wouldn't even consider anything but clipless. I'm not sure I've faced any danger from riding with clipless because if I crash my feet unclip without any input from me besides flying over the handle bars (you get the picture). Only time I choose flat over clipless is on technical down hill trails where the chance for error is higher and failing to get my feet off the pedals results in my falling over a cliff etc. I was also a firm believer in running flat pedals and it took me a long time to try clipless. After a week or two of riding clipless I felt comfortable with them and wasn't worried about being stuck to the bike in a accident. Did I fall a couple times with my feet still clipped in, sure, do I fall now without unclipping, never.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Well....*

I don't know any XC racer who doesn't use clipless pedals. My teen racers are in them within the first month of joining the team. In fairness they are not deeply invested in some other form of pedal which they've tested while riding in extremes. In the racing we do flat pedals disappear along with skateboard helmets and baggies sooner or later.

I have trained too many riders to not have a lot of faith in clipless pedals. Just watching them over the season change the way that they ride, their power, their technique, it's hard to deny their value. Having said that is not beyond the pale to appreciate the fact that there are substantial social pressures that push people into clipless pedals, out of skateboard helmets, and into full Lycra kits.

There has been an extensive discussion about this issue in the Passion forum very recently. While it initially got derailed by arguments about who was a Nazi and who was open-minded, as usual, it did develop into a pretty good discussion with a fair amount of critical thinking. You might spend a little time there.

However I have imported a graph that I thought was really interesting describing the muscle groups that provide power in certain parts of the pedal stroke. I have no idea how accurate it is and it certainly is not gospel. However, it fits the way I think about peddling.


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## gixer7 (Jul 26, 2007)

Robbieisbobert said:


> Will I benefit greatly from clipless riding in the face of the dangers that they pose by being clipped in?


I think you might be overstating the dangers from riding clipped in. I've only had one stack (out of plenty) where I stayed clipped in and that probably was a godsend considering I did an almost complete forward flip.

I always ride clipped in and could not imagine riding any other way now but really unless you are getting serious about racing then there is no requirement to be pushed into it.

For me being clipped in I feel more connected to the pedals, I don't have to worry about my feet slipping off and I can vary my pedal stroke (more quads, more calves, more adductor etc etc) depending on terrain/fatigue/mood.

Is there anything stopping you from trying them out for a few weeks? You are in the best position to judge if they are right for you or not. (I would suggest riding with them on gentle terrain till you get your mental process on dismounting sorted).

My personal opinion is you should go for clip ins cause they will make you a better, faster rider. Just don't bow to external pressure - do whatever the hell you want to do.


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## iwanttolookatpics (Jun 5, 2006)

Robbieisbobert said:


> in the face of the dangers that they pose by being clipped in


So.. you ride your xc bike faster than the world class downhillers that use clipless pedals? That's good going.


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## gixer7 (Jul 26, 2007)

iwanttolookatpics said:


> So.. you ride your xc bike faster than the world class downhillers that use clipless pedals? That's good going.


WTF?? Danger is not proportional to speed. Some of the most damaging stacks I've had have been at relatively slow speed while I've bounced out of high speed ones with nothing but a grin on my face.

You also have no idea of the OP's bike handling skills and he/she may be a relative novice while world class downhillers are exactly that - world class. Hardly a fair comparison and one the OP did not make themselves.

The OP has a legitimate question that I'm sure a lot of riders have had at some point. Honestly, pull your head in and come up with something constructive and just keep useless comments to yourself.


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## smace (Sep 4, 2010)

Make the jump and you will wonder why you never did before. My wife and 9 year old son just went to clip less. They can't believe how much better and faster they got. Plus it is easier to get up hills because you can pull for extra power. My son won his 1st race the 2nd day in clip less. If your going to race I say it is a must. 

Yes you will fall at first but after a while it because 2nd nature. Just do it


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## mudforlunch (Aug 9, 2004)

used platforms for years - used to race BMX on them. Changed over last year when I started racing XC, climbs are much easier clipped in. IMO it definitely feels like you use more of your legs to climb when clipped in versus platforms. I was freaked out about using them DH too, but after you get used to them, I'm actually much more comfortable being clipped in now. The only time I would rather use platforms is for very very very tech DH, and anything with jumps.


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## Pimpride (Nov 14, 2005)

If you are serious about XC then it's a great upgrade. Seems like you are beyond the point (skill-wise) where they would be dangerous. Cool image showing the muscles used on the full circle of a pedal stroke.... Also, read where cadence is important and clipless pedals help you get a good cadence sweet spot.


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

I mostly ride flats, but for racing clipless is the only way to go. The big things I notice is that with flats you are using a certain amount of muscular force to keep your feet on the pedals. With clipless you aren't wasting that energy.


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## JD1 (Feb 1, 2011)

I race CX in clipless pedals as does everyone else. Our winter terrain can be quite challenging (mud, snow, ice, grass, sand) but I'm not going to compare what you're riding with what I'm riding, other than to say they can undoubtedly both be difficult at times. I fall while clipped in. We all do. I also dismount and speed, hurdle barriers and climb stairs, run through mud and sand, and then remount at speed. I don't think they're dangerous and, TO ME, the benefits of a strong and efficient pedal stroke, far exceed any danger I can face. Besides, you're not a real bike rider if you haven't broken your collar bone! (or so I've been told)

Good luck.


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## emryium (Jun 28, 2010)

Pretty much everyone who races uses clipless, and its for a good reason. You become a better bike handler with them, you have better power transfer (I heard somewhere around 20% more efficient???), and you never have to worry about your foot slipping and your platform banging you in the shin!


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## desnaephoto (Jun 11, 2009)

Listen to this podcast. Research is showing that type of pedal does not matter. Your spin does.

http://www.bikejames.com/podcasts/mtb-scp-36-clearing-up-myths-about-the-pedal-stroke/


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

Yes, it may surprise you that there is little evidence supporting clipless as the clear answer. If anything i bet clipless will slow you down because you'll be hitting the brakes when there is no need and you'll be more likely to send it into the bushes because you don't want to hang a leg out in the corner to stabilize yourself!

It's true pretty much everybody who races wears clipless, i've done it, but then a lot of them also shave their legs because they crash so much... baaah.


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## mudforlunch (Aug 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> Yes, it may surprise you that there is little evidence supporting clipless as the clear answer. If anything i bet clipless will slow you down because you'll be hitting the brakes when there is no need and you'll be more likely to send it into the bushes because you don't want to hang a leg out in the corner to stabilize yourself!
> .


Thats ridiculous. Ask Brian Lopes if he brakes uneccessarily for no reason, or doesn't want to dab into corners because he's clipped in.

If you have those problems, its not because you're clipped in, its because you have crap for skills.


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## RideStrong (May 4, 2007)

Go clipless and then compare them to platform. Sometimes you have to just experience something to understand the benefits, without trying to put so much thought and science into it.

At the very least, you can always start out useing clipless pedals at the lowest possible clip in/out setting. Your feet will unclip at the slightest twist of your heel. You can keep them at this setting indefinately, or slowly tighten them down until your confidence grows. Before long, you'll likely wonder how you rode without them.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

desnaephoto said:


> Listen to this podcast. Research is showing that type of pedal does not matter. Your spin does.
> 
> http://www.bikejames.com/podcasts/mtb-scp-36-clearing-up-myths-about-the-pedal-stroke/


Somebody asks this question every few weeks on this board. A search would yield every possible argument for and against.

Of course, you could always look at the starting line of any Cat 1 or Pro race and count how many guys are on flats. That would save you a lot of trouble.

Run what you want. Be different if you like, run flats. We don't care. I especially don't care if you're in my race, because you won't be a factor anyway.


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## flargle (Apr 15, 2009)

RideStrong said:


> Go clipless and then compare them to platform. Sometimes you have to just experience something to understand the benefits, without trying to put so much thought and science into it.


Do you have any thoughts on why what seems so obvious to you isn't supported by research?


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## Poncharelli (Jan 13, 2005)

Let's just look at one simple component: the interface between foot and pedal. 

Clipless: thin sock, stiff sole shoe with little deflection under compression (in the sense of bending throughout the sole, as well as direct line compression)

Platform: thicker rubber sole shoe with lots of deformation and flex under compression (like a typical walking shoe would have, definitely something you want in a shoe you walk with). It is essentially a lower K spring that will absorb energy. 

Multiply that energy loss 180 times per minute (each down stroke), or 10800 times per hour, and that becomes quite a bit of energy loss.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

flargle said:


> Do you have any thoughts on why what seems so obvious to you isn't supported by research?


I also haven't seen any studies proving the wetness of water, but my experience with showering has me somewhat convinced.


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## flargle (Apr 15, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> I also haven't seen any studies proving the wetness of water, but my experience with showering has me somewhat convinced.


This is a faulty analogy. You could perform an experiment that showed that water is indeed wet. But people have performed experiments on clipless vs flat pedals and have not shown that clipless is superior.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

flargle said:


> This is a faulty analogy. You could perform an experiment that showed that water is indeed wet. But people have performed experiments on clipless vs flat pedals and have not shown that clipless is superior.


Like I said before, ride what you want. Some things are so obvious that it's stupid to argue against them.

I don't mind if you handicap yourself. Especially if you are in my class, which I'm assuming you aren't, because I have seen exactly zero Cat 1 XC racers on flats.


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## flargle (Apr 15, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> Some things are so obvious that it's stupid to argue against them.


Then why are you doing exactly that?

Something about this discussion really bothers you, to the point of being belligerent. You write "We don't care," but you obviously do care a great deal.

I use clipless pedals, but think there's merit in questioning the orthodoxy of XC = clipless.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

flargle said:


> Then why are you doing exactly that?
> 
> Something about this discussion really bothers you, to the point of being belligerent. You write "We don't care," but you obviously do care a great deal.
> 
> I use clipless pedals, but think there's merit in questioning the orthodoxy of XC = clipless.


I wouldn't say I care a "great deal". I do get annoyed that this question was answered a couple of decades ago by MTB racers (and years before that by road racers).

Even without the benefit of irrefutible scientific data, 99% of all XC racers had migrated to clipless within 2 years of introduction.

I put this conversation right up there with "why can't I race in baggies" and "OMG I feel gay if I shave my legs".

If you feel there's such "merit in questioning the orthodoxy", then please explain why? No one is keeping you from using flats.

But it's not like there are many clipless racers suddenly wishing for the "freedom" of a BMX pedal and a skateboard shoe, now, is it?


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## Ride-beer-rinse-repeat (Mar 26, 2009)

My $0.02

I initially rode flat for a few years becuase of the staying-clipped-in-during-a-crash fear, but after switching to clipless I found I had far fewer mishaps (my foot wouldn't bounce off the pedal or miss during a power stroke). My shins are happier and not frequently bloodied, I learned very quickly how to unclip without even thinking about it, and I have much more confidence over technical terrain becuase I am more connected to the bike and I have one less thing to concentrate on. Plus I feel my pedaling is more efficient since I can add power on the upstroke, but maybe that's just a mental thing.


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## flargle (Apr 15, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> If you feel there's such "merit in questioning the orthodoxy", then please explain why?


http://www.bikejames.com/barefoot-p...lipless-pedals-dont-connect-you-to-your-bike/


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

flargle said:


> http://www.bikejames.com/barefoot-p...lipless-pedals-dont-connect-you-to-your-bike/


This blog post is your SCIENTIFIC justification for questioning the use of clipless pedals for XC racing?

Well, allow me to apologize for not taking you more seriously. Obviously something must be done, we have all been brainwashed into thinking that clipless pedals are the best solution for XC racing.

My favorite quote? "Losing your mechanical attachment point to the bike should not drop your performance by more than 3-5%". I have often felt that I am roughly 3-5% too fast; easily fixed!

I'm off to buy some 5-10 shoes and dig up some BMX pedals. I feel the need for a more "spiritual" connection with my bicycle.


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## flargle (Apr 15, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> This blog post is your SCIENTIFIC justification for questioning the use of clipless pedals for XC racing?
> 
> Well, allow me to apologize for not taking you more seriously. Obviously something must be done, we have all been brainwashed into thinking that clipless pedals are the best solution for XC racing.
> 
> ...


Wow, you are something else. The scientific justification is in the podcast that has already been posted.


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## waterdude (Jun 28, 2010)

tommyrod74 said:


> I wouldn't say I care a "great deal". I do get annoyed that this question was answered a couple of decades ago by MTB racers (and years before that by road racers).
> 
> Even without the benefit of irrefutible scientific data, 99% of all XC racers had migrated to clipless within 2 years of introduction.
> 
> ...


Dumb question: why do you shave your legs?


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

flargle said:


> Wow, you are something else. The scientific justification is in the podcast that has already been posted.


Listened to the podcast. Not even slightly convinced that it means flats are better than clipless for XC racing.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

waterdude said:


> Dumb question: why do you shave your legs?


Because it makes me feel sexy.


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## mbeall (Dec 22, 2008)

Platforms will help teach proper footwork for handling. (i.e. heels down when descending) whereas clipless allow for sloppy footwork since you become attached to the bike. However you loose the upstroke completely which for XC racing is unacceptable. I realize that the loss upstroke is negligible for a lot of riders when in a steady spin but when it comes time to hammer for an attack or a climb you will be at a serious disadvantage without it.

Mike


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I don't know any XC racer who doesn't use clipless pedals. My teen racers are in them within the first month of joining the team. In fairness they are not deeply invested in some other form of pedal which they've tested while riding in extremes. In the racing we do flat pedals disappear along with skateboard helmets and baggies sooner or later.
> 
> I have trained too many riders to not have a lot of faith in clipless pedals. Just watching them over the season change the way that they ride, their power, their technique, it's hard to deny their value. Having said that is not beyond the pale to appreciate the fact that there are substantial social pressures that push people into clipless pedals, out of skateboard helmets, and into full Lycra kits.
> 
> ...


Dude, thanks! I was in spin class this morning and wondering which muscles are activated where in the cycle.


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## GDubT (Apr 13, 2010)

I use clips in races, no questions asked, however after getting a first taste of clips I quickly knew I needed to improve my basic skills and nothing helps you do that more than riding flats.

A buddy of mine that got into MTBing at the same time as me was running clips and didn't have quite the basic skill set I did and was a very harsh rider. He bunny hopped, but only by pulling up on the clips. I had him put flats on his bike and he couldn't get the back wheel off the ground to save his life. After riding flats for a couple months, he gained the skills to properly take advatage of all that clips have to offer.

Point is, clips won't make you a better rider, it'll just seem like you're better because you'll go faster and won't get as tired. Flats, however, will make you a better rider, but you'll be at a distinct advantage to guys on clips. It's all relative. A better bike is not going to make you a better rider, it'll just make riding easier.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

mudforlunch said:


> Thats ridiculous. Ask Brian Lopes if he brakes uneccessarily for no reason, or doesn't want to dab into corners because he's clipped in.
> 
> If you have those problems, its not because you're clipped in, its because you have crap for skills.


Haha, so we're all Brian Lopes now? Come on... while we're at it - Lets look at somebody like Sam Hill as proof that clipless shoes aren't a technique enabling technology. Props to Sam Hill for showing people there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I'm cool with you insulting my "skillz" if you want to have a temper-tantrum telling people they suck, that is hilarious. I'm sure you'll prove something about somebody that way. 

Anyways, I am still waiting for all that stunning evidence clipless pedals are obviously superior to platforms. Maybe then i'll switch to clipless 24/7...


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> Haha, so we're all Brian Lopes now? Come on... while we're at it - Lets look at somebody like Sam Hill as proof that clipless shoes aren't a technique enabling technology. Props to Sam Hill for showing people there is more than one way to skin a cat.
> 
> I'm cool with you insulting my "skillz" if you want to have a temper-tantrum telling people they suck, that is hilarious. I'm sure you'll prove something about somebody that way.
> 
> Anyways, I am still waiting for all that stunning evidence clipless pedals are obviously superior to platforms. Maybe then i'll switch to clipless 24/7...


Surprisingly enough, you don't need "skillz" on the level of Brian Lopes to win a XC race. And who really believes you have to choose between clipless pedals and being a skilled rider? Like you can't have both?

If you feel you need to work on what (to those of us who grew up riding or racing BMX) are very basic skills, by all means ride flats for a while. Just don't pretend they are a viable alternative for high-level XC racing.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> Surprisingly enough, you don't need "skillz" on the level of Brian Lopes to win a XC race. And who really believes you have to choose between clipless pedals and being a skilled rider? Like you can't have both?
> 
> If you feel you need to work on what (to those of us who grew up riding or racing BMX) are very basic skills, by all means ride flats for a while. Just don't pretend they are a viable alternative for high-level XC racing.


Sure, again another cool guy to call out my lack of skillz.

Honestly i*f you guys had any evidence that clipless were somehow clearly better for riding XC than platforms you'd have posted it*. No? Maybe you're just toying with me? 

I like how you slipped in "high-level" XC... is that what the OP is doing btw? :lol: We all know what pros do is what we should do - right.. that is why doping is up next for discussion after you swallow their clipless hocus pocus.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> Sure, again another cool guy to call out my lack of skillz.
> 
> Honestly i*f you guys had any evidence that clipless were somehow clearly better for riding XC than platforms you'd have posted it*. No? Maybe you're just toying with me?
> 
> I like how you slipped in "high-level" XC... is that what the OP is doing btw? :lol: We all know what pros do is what we should do - right.. that is why doping is up next for discussion after you swallow their clipless hocus pocus.


Pros also use suspension forks. Perhaps we should all go back to rigid, as there are no studies to cite that demonstrate the superiority of front suspension. Plus, think of the bonus to your "skilz"!

You are correct. I can show no scientific proof of the superiority of clipless pedals for XC racing. Just as you can show no evidence of the opposite. I, however, can say that the folks who race for a living (and the vast, vast, vast majority of all racers) use clipless pedals and would not consider flats. You're fighting a losing battle, but by all means, keep swinging away.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

electrik said:


> Sure, again another cool guy to call out my lack of skillz.
> 
> Honestly i*f you guys had any evidence that clipless were somehow clearly better for riding XC than platforms you'd have posted it*. No? Maybe you're just toying with me?
> 
> I like how you slipped in "high-level" XC... is that what the OP is doing btw? :lol: We all know what pros do is what we should do - right.. that is why doping is up next for discussion after you swallow their clipless hocus pocus.


I think you'll find the evidence is in EVERY podium finishing rider wearing clipless pedals.

Clipless pedals won't guarantee a rider a podium finish, but they will make any rider faster on the flat and on climbs.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> Pros also use suspension forks. Perhaps we should all go back to rigid, as there are no studies to cite that demonstrate the superiority of front suspension. Plus, think of the bonus to your "skilz"!
> 
> You are correct. I can show no scientific proof of the superiority of clipless pedals for XC racing. Just as you can show no evidence of the opposite. I, however, can say that the folks who race for a living (and the vast, vast, vast majority of all racers) use clipless pedals and would not consider flats. You're fighting a losing battle, but by all means, keep swinging away.


Wrong, i'm not saying don't use clipless i'm saying PROVE they're actually doing something totally special!

I am not fighting anybody... you guys are the ones who need to *prove clipless are required for success and not just incidental.* Until then i have no need to defend anything, but perhaps the silly e-throwdowns that i have no skills. :lol:


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

marzjennings said:


> I think you'll find the evidence is in EVERY podium finishing rider wearing clipless pedals.
> 
> Clipless pedals won't guarantee a rider a podium finish, but they will make any rider faster on the flat and on climbs.


If the pros all had the same hair-cut i'd bet you would goto your barber and ask for one also without thinking it through... FYI it's not the haircut or the pedals, but whatever floats your boat!

Some xc races i've done on flats i've have no problem finishing top quarter. I don't think it's a defining issue for anybody on this thread... at least i don't seen anybody coming forward saying they lost positions because they rode platforms. You?


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## GDubT (Apr 13, 2010)

electrik said:


> Wrong, i'm not saying don't use clipless i'm saying PROVE they're actually doing something totally special!
> 
> I am not fighting anybody... you guys are the ones who need to *prove clipless are required for success and not just incidental.* Until then i have no need to defend anything, but perhaps the silly e-throwdowns that i have no skills. :lol:


He just said it...how many dudes on the podium use flats? That's a proven statistic. End of story.


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## Combatcm (Nov 15, 2005)

electrik said:


> Sure, again another cool guy to call out my lack of skillz.
> 
> Honestly i*f you guys had any evidence that clipless were somehow clearly better for riding XC than platforms you'd have posted it*. No? Maybe you're just toying with me?
> 
> I like how you slipped in "high-level" XC... is that what the OP is doing btw? :lol: We all know what pros do is what we should do - right.. that is why doping is up next for discussion after you swallow their clipless hocus pocus.


OP is joining a racing team...did you miss that part?

The problem here is using clipless pedals for racing is so obvious, nobody is going to waste their time with a study.

You suck and are lacking skillz


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

GDubT said:


> He just said it...how many dudes on the podium use flats? That's a proven statistic. End of story.


Sure. Nobody can argue with that!


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

Combatcm said:


> OP is joining a racing team...did you miss that part?
> 
> The problem here is using clipless pedals for racing is so obvious, nobody is going to waste their time with a study.
> 
> You suck and are lacking skillz


I guess that makes you captain obvious.

If he is joining a team i'm sure he'll become one with his team and pedals by switching to clipless 24/7. You guys are too smart for me.


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## Combatcm (Nov 15, 2005)

How about you show us a pro who uses flats?


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## lgh (Jan 10, 2007)

A few years ago, I think at TDF, one of the top field sprinters pulled out of his pedal attachment in the sprint. Not pretty. When the talk of platforms came out, I tried it because, gee, BMX'ers are fast. I found that, if I have to go fast on the road in a sprint or attacking a hill, I'll go clipless, no doubt about it. But try it for yourself and see. Maybe mtb is different. 

Larry


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

electrik said:


> If the pros all had the same hair-cut i'd bet you would goto your barber and ask for one also without thinking it through... FYI it's not the haircut or the pedals, but whatever floats your boat!
> 
> Some xc races i've done on flats i've have no problem finishing top quarter. I don't think it's a defining issue for anybody on this thread... at least i don't seen anybody coming forward saying they lost positions because they rode platforms. You?


It is the pedals, they do make a difference. But as you and others have hinted at they don't make the biggest difference and shouldn't be the first thing a developing rider should focus on. First is technique (bike handling and spinning), a better rider will beat a fitter rider (Lance learnt this a few years ago), next the engine (big legs, big heart and big lungs) and then it's the bike. For me the order of preference for building a faster bike start at the frame and move to wheels, forks, tyres, then pedals, cranks and everything else.

And for me it's about 1-2 miles per hour. No real difference over a couple of miles, but over a race, 30 miles or so, 6-10 minutes difference easy. (Cat 2 racer)


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

marzjennings said:


> It is the pedals, they do make a difference. But as you and others have hinted at they don't make the biggest difference and shouldn't be the first thing a developing rider should focus on. First is technique (bike handling and spinning), a better rider will beat a fitter rider (Lance learnt this a few years ago), next the engine (big legs, big heart and big lungs) and then it's the bike. For me the order of preference for building a faster bike start at the frame and move to wheels, forks, tyres, then pedals, cranks and everything else.
> 
> And for me it's about 1-2 miles per hour. No real difference over a couple of miles, but over a race, 30 miles or so, 6-10 minutes difference easy. (Cat 2 racer)


For Lance and road riding, sure... clipless are fine. I just think the game is much more variable with XC riding, no need to rush out and get the same haircut until you know your haircut is what is holding you back.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

electrik said:


> For Lance and road riding, sure... clipless are fine. I just think the game is much more variable with XC riding, no need to rush out and get the same haircut until you know your haircut is what is holding you back.


No, I'm talking Lance on a mountain bike, initially those Tour de France legs didn't always lead to mtb race wins until he matched that engine to some improved off road skills.

True buying clipless won't turn an average rider into a race winner, but it may up their finishing position by a couple of places.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

marzjennings said:


> No, I'm talking Lance on a mountain bike, initially those Tour de France legs didn't always lead to mtb race wins until he matched that engine to some improved off road skills.
> 
> True buying clipless won't turn an average rider into a race winner, but it may up their finishing position by a couple of places.


Oh, okay... I think too many people get pushed on the clipless wagon too early. I've never been pushed that way too much and i think it's partially because i got some good results without them. If i had been less impressive or weak i'm sure the clipless guys would have been chastising me up and down about it. When I see that happening to other people it annoys me. The optimal improvement in efficiency is on the magnitude 5%(low single digits) from all the data i've seen(there isn't much). Therefore much more hard work comes before even beginning to actually have to worry about whether to be clipped(ideally pedal stroke is the same but it is another skill to have to learn and that can ruin your riding further) in or which super-light tires... etc.


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

Here's an easy solution. Try both. You can quite easily swap your pedals back and forth, I do it all the time. Takes less than 5 minutes. Don't think you "have" to go with one or the other because somebody else says so. Try it for yourself.

I know I am much faster on the descents on flat pedals. That's not going to matter in a race if I am stuck behind all the guys who killed me on the climb. 

James Wilson...his target audience is definitely not XC racers. I totally agree with his stance against pushing people into riding clipless because people think it will make them a better rider. But we are talking about XC racing here.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

lgh said:


> A few years ago, I think at TDF, one of the top field sprinters pulled out of his pedal attachment in the sprint. Not pretty. When the talk of platforms came out, I tried it because, gee, BMX'ers are fast. I found that, if I have to go fast on the road in a sprint or attacking a hill, I'll go clipless, no doubt about it. But try it for yourself and see. Maybe mtb is different.
> 
> Larry


It is an exception now to find a BMX pro on flats when racing. Training or just riding around is sometimes a different story, but XC racing is not dirt jumping.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> The optimal improvement in efficiency is on the magnitude 5%(low single digits) from all the data i've seen(there isn't much).


Do you have any clue as to how much some of us train to improve another 5%?

5% is the difference between first place and midpack at the higher levels. Hell, on the road (which is another subject) it's often the difference between first and last.

You really think that the ability to drag a foot through turns makes up for that? In an XC race?


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> Oh, okay... I think too many people get pushed on the clipless wagon too early. I've never been pushed that way too much and i think it's partially because i got some good results without them.... Therefore much more hard work comes before even beginning to actually have to worry about whether to be clipped(ideally pedal stroke is the same but it is another skill to have to learn and that can ruin your riding further) in or which super-light tires... etc.


Again, are we discussing new riders who don't have basic handling skills, or are you still trying to generalize this to say that ALL XC racers might be faster on flats? I'd agree that riding flats at first might build some useful skills if those weren't developed during youth (my entire generation, it seems, grew up on BMX bikes), but that would only delay the inevitable progression to clipless for racing or general XC riding.

I'd be willing to bet you'd see even better race results with clipless pedals - if you could get over the pathological fear of them (or maybe just the yearning to be the iconoclast).


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> I don't think it's a defining issue for anybody on this thread... at least i don't seen anybody coming forward saying they lost positions because they rode platforms. You?


You aren't hearing the stories because there aren't any. Why would someone go back to platforms for racing?


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

People keep referencing BMX, but after reading a few debates on BMX sites, it looks like BMX has been infected by clips. No stats, but I have seen several statements that to win at the top level of BMX, you need clips.


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## waterdude (Jun 28, 2010)

tommyrod74 said:


> Because it makes me feel sexy.


I'm a noob and it was a serious question. I assume you shave your legs because of drag, but that's just an educated guess. This is the second thread I've read regarding racing on platforms vs. clipless in just a few weeks, and although both times I've come away believing that you know your shite, I've also come away with the feeling that you're a complete ******. Even if you are right (and I believe you are), trying to shout it the loudest, or "get the final word in" just makes you seem like a jag off. I'll google xc racing and shaven legs. Thanks-


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## flargle (Apr 15, 2009)

waterdude said:


> I'm a noob and it was a serious question. I assume you shave your legs because of drag, but that's just an educated guess.


People will say things about road rash, massages, etc etc, but the two real reasons cyclists shave:
1) tradition
2) vanity
Hairy legs + lycra just looks wrong.

Just to make this thread complete, let's start talking about wheel size.


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## fazzster (Apr 4, 2010)

I have been riding since 1986 and I just recently switched to platforms (and a rigid fork). I am a weekend warrior and do 2 to 3 races a year. This was the first year I raced on platforms and I have to say it is a trade off. I lost a lot of pedaling effeciency on platforms but my confidence increased on the real rocky and tecnical sections and rode faster. So for me, on a course that is very technical, platforms are the way to go. I also use the platforms for my recreational rides and enjoy the ride a lot more. My old bones can't take the falls being clipped in like it used to. Platforms are more forgiving in a crash situation...


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> There has been an extensive discussion about this issue in the Passion forum very recently.
> ...
> However I have imported a graph that I thought was really interesting describing the muscle groups that provide power in certain parts of the pedal stroke. I have no idea how accurate it is and it certainly is not gospel. However, it fits the way I think about peddling.


This is the thread that *Berkeley Mike* was referring to. It's worth a quick read through:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=679874

One thing to consider with flat pedals when compared to clipless pedals is that your foot isn't restricted to one position. With clipless pedals a typical MTB shoe and clipless pedal design means that you pedal using the ball of your foot.

Using a flat pedal your foot can choose its own natural position on the pedal. You'll often end up pedalling using the midfoot instead of the ball of the foot. There's been quite a bit of discussion over the last few years as to whether pedalling using the midfoot can be better than pedalling using the ball of the foot, both in terms of improved torque but also for reducing injuries.

(see posts by "Biomac" and "Steve Hogg" in particular)
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11544

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/clothing/shoes/product/bio-mxc2-shoes-09-34720

http://www.bicyclepaper.com/articles/2010/08/midfoot_cleat_position

http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007/02/biomac-shoes.html

_"Though unusual, the idea behind Heine's mid-foot or 'arch' cleat position is logical. He and other mid-foot proponents such as renowned coach Joe Friel and Cyclingnews fitness panelist Steve Hogg surmise that the majority of a rider's power is produced by the quadriceps, glutes and hamstrings while the lower leg only serves to stabilise the efforts of what happens above. As such, the lower leg is merely a conduit and doesn't produce enough effective power to justify the metabolic cost.

Moving the cleats back to the arch - a location Heine defines as optimal - thus substantially reduces the workload on the calves and leaves more oxygen and energy remaining for those larger muscle groups to produce more total power before fatigue and exhaustion can set in. In other words, you can go faster for longer with no additional training required aside from adjusting to the new position.

"Compare it to doing push-ups," says Heine. "One time on your fingertips, second time on the palms of your hands. Total [lactic acid production and oxygen consumption] will be equal but the fingertip exercise will exhaust you sooner."

Interesting enough, but does it work? The mid-foot cleat position feels weird at first but it only took a couple of rides to adapt and dare we admit it, we actually like it - at least most of the time. Most mountain bike riders on platform pedals naturally adopt this position already.

With the relatively flexible lower leg system taken out of the equation, power transmission is noticeably more direct and the power stroke is effectively lengthened. As promised, almost all stress on the calves is relieved - virtually eliminating cramps there - and we really did find ourselves motoring along on flats and extended climbs better than usual._ *Bikeradar.com*

It's something to think about.

Pictured below: Biomac midfoot cleat position is very close to the midfoot position your foot can end up in naturally when pedalling on flat pedals.


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## mudforlunch (Aug 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> Haha, so we're all Brian Lopes now? Come on... while we're at it - Lets look at somebody like Sam Hill as proof that clipless shoes aren't a technique enabling technology. Props to Sam Hill for showing people there is more than one way to skin a cat.
> 
> I'm cool with you insulting my "skillz" if you want to have a temper-tantrum telling people they suck, that is hilarious. I'm sure you'll prove something about somebody that way.
> 
> Anyways, I am still waiting for all that stunning evidence clipless pedals are obviously superior to platforms. Maybe then i'll switch to clipless 24/7...


You stated you "would brake all the time for no reason" and"be afraid to put your foot out in corners' clipped in, which is clearly not true, and the only anyone would think that is if they didn't have very good bike skills. period.

The Lopes comment was just an example of a very high level gravity racer who is clipped in, and I believe Steve Peat clips in too. The ONLY pro racers who use flats are DH racers, and its not even the majority of them. XC is pretty much all clipped in due to the climbing advantage it offers, as stated.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

waterdude said:


> I'm a noob and it was a serious question. I assume you shave your legs because of drag, but that's just an educated guess. This is the second thread I've read regarding racing on platforms vs. clipless in just a few weeks, and although both times I've come away believing that you know your shite, I've also come away with the feeling that you're a complete ******. Even if you are right (and I believe you are), trying to shout it the loudest, or "get the final word in" just makes you seem like a jag off. I'll google xc racing and shaven legs. Thanks-


Apologies if I came off as a ****. This was one instance in which it wasn't intentional.

My answer was at least partially honest. No matter what anyone says, the primary reason guys who ride or race shave their legs is because they like the way it looks and feels. My wife likes it, too.

The secondary reason is everyone else does it. It's almost like a visible mark of how "serious" one is about cycling.

The "scientific" reasons are all tertiary at best. Massage, road rash, etc. Aerodynamic benefits are basically negligible.

I'm OK with that, and have gotten so used to doing it that I don't like having hairy legs even in the off-season. A few guys I race with don't shave, and it's no big deal either way.

My primary beef with the way the clipless thing comes up every few weeks or so is that it's a question that was answered 2 decades ago as 99.9% of racers migrated to clipless within 2 years of introduction. It's a non-issue, and while flats work too, they aren't as good for even general XC riding, and certainly inferior for racing.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There are a few studies comparing clipless pedals to toe clips and flat pedals linked in this long thread:

http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=52152

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*The effect of clip-less pedals on mechanical characteristics measured during sprinting on a non-isokinetic cycle ergometer *

_"*Summary*

*Purpose.*
The purpose of this study was to compare the mechanical parameters measured on a non-isokinetic cycle ergometer equiped with or without toe-clip pedals during sprinting.

*Methods.*
Two groups of subjects (international-national and regional cyclists) performed four sprints of 8 seconds with two different friction forces applied to the belt (0.5 or 1.1 N.kg−1). A variance analysis with repeated measures (shoe-pedal linkages and groups) has been performed.

*Results.*
The results show a significant increase of the maximal values of force, velocity and power output when clip-less pedals were used, whatever the friction force applied.

*Conclusions.*
This improvement of maximal power could be attributed to a significant increase in optimal velocity, which was observed for both considerable and minimal friction force. In fact, clipless pedals allowed a greater muscular activity, a greater efficiency index, and better muscular coordination."_ *F. Hintzy, A. Belli, F. Grappe and J.D. Rouillon*

*Edit:* Working Link
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0765-1597(99)80055-0
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Electromyography in cycling: difference between clipless pedal and toe clip pedal*
"The purpose of this study was to verify if there is electromyographic difference in biceps femoris (long portion), semitendinous, semimembranous and gastrocnemius (lateralis and medialis) muscles, using clipless pedal and toe clip pedal.

Thirty seven triathletes answered a questionnaire about their preferred type of pedal, which showed that 5.4% used toe clip pedal and 94.6% used clipless pedal. Four male triathletes (age: 21.75 +/- 2.50 years old; cycling experience: 5.00 +/- 2.45 years; preferred cadence: 83.75 +/- 7.5 rpm) rode their own bicycles on a stationary roller at 100 rpm. The subjects performed one trial with each type of pedal. Bipolar surface electrodes placed on right lower limb picked up the EMG signal during 6 s. A band-pass filter (10-600 Hz) was used.

Two muscles (semitendinous and semimembranous) presented lower activity with clipless pedal for all subjects. Biceps femoris and gastrocnemius lateralis presented lower activity with clipless pedal for three subjects. This led us to conclude that there is less electromyographic activity with the use of clipless pedal." *Cruz CF, Bankoff AD 2001*

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11441642

Review 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18093842

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling.*
_"The aim of this study was to determine the influence of different shoe-pedal interfaces and of an active pulling-up action during the upstroke phase on the pedalling technique.

Eight elite cyclists (C) and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev . min (-1) and 60 % of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke.

There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively.

Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency."_*Mornieux G, Stapelfeldt B, Gollhofer A, Belli A*.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Gross cycling efficiency is not altered with and without toe-clips*
_"The aim of this study was to examine the claim that reductions of 8 - 18% in submaximal oxygen consumption (O2) could be due to changing components on a Monark ergometer, from standard pedals without toe-clips or straps (flat pedals) to racing pedals of that era, which included toe-clips and straps (toe-clip pedals).

This previously untested assertion was evaluated using 11 males (mean age 22.3 years, s = 1.2; height 1.82 m, s = 0.07; body mass 82.6 kg, s = 8.8) who completed four trials in a randomized, counterbalanced order at 60 rev · min-1 on a Monark cycle ergometer. Two trials were completed on flat pedals and two trials on toe-clip pedals. The Douglas bag method was used to assess O2 and gross efficiency during successive 5-min workloads of 60, 120, 180, and 240 W.

The mean O2 was 2.1% higher for toe-clip pedals than flat pedals and there was a 99% probability that toe-clip pedals would not result in an 8% lower O2. These results indicate that toe-clip pedals do not reduce O2." _*Authors: Laura M. Ostlera; James A. Bettsa; Christopher J. Gore*

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a781709524~db=all~jumptype=rss

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## waterdude (Jun 28, 2010)

tommyrod74 said:


> Apologies if I came off as a ****. This was one instance in which it wasn't intentional.
> 
> My answer was at least partially honest. No matter what anyone says, the primary reason guys who ride or race shave their legs is because they like the way it looks and feels. My wife likes it, too.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the second look. Actually, I kinda dig these threads. I have zero interest in racing (right now), and I'm on the fence about clipless. I have the clipless pedals that came stock on my new bike, and I have a decent pair of platforms. In other words, I could do it if I had the nerve. Eventually these threads will push me over the edge.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

waterdude said:


> I'm on the fence about clipless. I have the clipless pedals that came stock on my new bike, and I have a decent pair of platforms. In other words, I could do it if I had the nerve. Eventually these threads will push me over the edge.


The main things to consider if you're thinking about using clipless pedals are that they aren't all the same. A clipless pedal such as Shimano SPD with adjustable spring release tension is a good beginner pedal because you can set the spring release tension to a low level - making it easy to get your foot out in a hurry with little effort. When you read about people getting new pedals and falling off 10 times on the first ride it's usually because the release tension was too high on their pedals.

Practice is important with clipless pedals also. The best technique for releasing a clipless pedal is to first have your leg straight and at the bottom of the pedal stroke before trying to unclip. This gives you maximum leverage and muscle strength for unclipping your foot from the pedal. When you unclip a clear sideways twisting action of the leg (inwards or outwards) will cleanly disengage the cleat.

If you try and unclip when your pedal is at the top of the pedal stroke it's much harder to do because you can't utilise your leg muscles as well.

When riding with clipless pedals (on or offroad) you need to be thinking ahead about whether a situation could require you to quickly unclip. If you're prepared then you can avoid many of those situations where you suddenly realise you have to get a foot down but don't have time to react. Most clipless pedal related falls are avoidable.

Having cycling shoes with a grippy midsole that are easy to ride on when clipped out are useful too. Sticking a strip of old tyre on the sole of the shoe can make it much easier and safer to ride clipped out on top of SPD pedals. If you're really concerned about a section then don't be ashamed to ride with a foot unclipped on top of the pedal in readiness for a dab.

Pictured below: A strip of old tyre on cycling shoes makes it easier to ride clipped out when using SPD pedals.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> Do you have any clue as to how much some of us train to improve another 5%?
> 
> 5% is the difference between first place and midpack at the higher levels. Hell, on the road (which is another subject) it's often the difference between first and last.
> 
> You really think that the ability to drag a foot through turns makes up for that? In an XC race?


Take a chill pill tommy, you're jumping up and down on me like some excited cocker-spaniel..

What I am telling you is that XC racing is much different that road racing. The only place i think the added efficiency of clips would be clear is track racing. If you think 5% - note that was a maximum and only an efficiency number(not a finishing time) - is what is holding you back then congrats you really are an elite pro. Which team do you ride for?

Further the improvement in efficiency is a result of having a better cadence, if you're spinning 120rpm enough on an xc race to make that clips worth your time congrats, you chose too low a gear for your singlespeed!

Yes, i think anything that allows you to not hit the brakes will make you much faster... I have seen a lot of clipless guys eat **** on corners or slow waaay down. Personally i think they would be better off if somebody, like you, wasn't trying to ram clipless pedals down their throats and ruin their confidence.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> Again, are we discussing new riders who don't have basic handling skills, or are you still trying to generalize this to say that ALL XC racers might be faster on flats? I'd agree that riding flats at first might build some useful skills if those weren't developed during youth (my entire generation, it seems, grew up on BMX bikes), but that would only delay the inevitable progression to clipless for racing or general XC riding.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet you'd see even better race results with clipless pedals - if you could get over the pathological fear of them (or maybe just the yearning to be the iconoclast).


If you read my other post throughly you'd see i do use clipless frequently - the actual improvements in efficiency I experience are not earth shattering. I do like riding clips on the road... I'm not making any generalizations, just trying to stick to the facts i know.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

"Take a chill pill tommy, you're jumping up and down on me like some excited cocker-spaniel.

What I am telling you is that XC racing is much different that road racing."

I road race as well, often in pro/1/2/3/fields and against former national champions in masters 35+. And I'm here to tell you that if I didn't have to occasionally clip out to run a section of an xc race (usually because of a rider in front not being able to ride a climb), I would actually run road shoes and pedals off-road to save weight, and have done so on some non-techy courses.

"The only place i think the added efficiency of clips would be clear is track racing. If you think 5% - note that was a maximum and only an efficiency number(not a finishing time) - is what is holding you back then congrats you really are an elite pro. Which team do you ride for? "

I race for the Gary Fisher (now Trek) 29er Crew. Cat 1, usually podium, 4 wins this past season, targeting a pro license withing the next 2 seasons. And yes, 5 % improvement in FTP would be a big difference in my power profile. Anyone who trains with a power metric would agree, especially after they have been training for a few years and big improvements are hard to come by. In my case, that would be 15-20 watts improvement, enough to make a noticeable difference. 

Of course, I'm fully aware that 5% was simply a number the author pulled out of his ass, with only his "observations" to attribute it to.

"Further the improvement in efficiency is a result of having a better cadence, if you're spinning 120rpm enough on an xc race to make that clips worth your time congrats, you chose too low a gear for your singlespeed!"

Nope, 1 X 10, and my average off-road cadence is ~ 85-90. I just like to be able to pull up on the pedals while climbing out of the saddle. Pretty sure that this is an advantage. Also pretty sure that every study I've seen on cadence shows that the most efficient cadence varies from individual to individual. You wouldn't just make stuff up, now, would you?

"Yes, i think anything that allows you to not hit the brakes will make you much faster... I have seen a lot of clipless guys eat **** on corners or slow waaay down. Personally i think they would be better off if somebody, like you, wasn't trying to ram clipless pedals down their throats and ruin their confidence."

I would ask you again... who are you riding with? In my Cat 1 races, I have NEVER seen anyone take a corner slowly or crash due to clipless pedals. Never heard anyone remark after a race that they had wished they weren't clipped in. 

If the vast majority of BMX racers (some as young as 5!) are on clipless pedals... you are a lone voice in the wilderness, and no one is listening. Except me, obviously, and only because you are annoying me.

I'll say it again - the only reason clipless could be a detriment for XC racing would be if the rider in question LACKS THE BASIC SKILLS TO BE RACING A BICYCLE IN THE WOODS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Was that clear enough?


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

fazzster said:


> I have been riding since 1986 and I just recently switched to platforms (and a rigid fork). I am a weekend warrior and do 2 to 3 races a year. This was the first year I raced on platforms and I have to say it is a trade off. I lost a lot of pedaling effeciency on platforms but my confidence increased on the real rocky and tecnical sections and rode faster. So for me, on a course that is very technical, platforms are the way to go. I also use the platforms for my recreational rides and enjoy the ride a lot more. My old bones can't take the falls being clipped in like it used to. Platforms are more forgiving in a crash situation...


How much of the race course is a rocky technical section vs. how much of the course is climbing?


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## lgh (Jan 10, 2007)

Tommy - Thanks, I didn't know BMX'ers had made the switch. Makes sense. Those who think platforms are a viable option should just go out and try them in high performance, non steadystate, XC conditions. I think that would end this thread. Nobody, or practically nobody, picks platforms under those conditions. 

Larry


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## pljam67 (Jun 3, 2010)

WR304, thanks for your post. I've been riding about 9 months, racing for 3 and feel like it's getting time to make the switch to clipless. I still dab a foot down about once every ride and it's good to know that you can unclip and still pedal through sketchy sections. That is just what I needed to know to make the switch. I tried clipless early on, but like tommyrod said, my skills were not up to par and I was not ready for clipless. Now it's getting to where I have to work to keep my feet on the pedals and in the right position, so I'm gonna give clipless another shot.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

pljam67 said:


> WR304, thanks for your post. I've been riding about 9 months, racing for 3 and feel like it's getting time to make the switch to clipless. I still dab a foot down about once every ride and it's good to know that you can unclip and still pedal through sketchy sections. That is just what I needed to know to make the switch. I tried clipless early on, but like tommyrod said, my skills were not up to par and I was not ready for clipless. Now it's getting to where I have to work to keep my feet on the pedals and in the right position, so I'm gonna give clipless another shot.


That's exactly what I meant. I think it's a great idea for newer riders to start out on flats, especially if they don't have a BMX or similar background.

You'll find that once you feel confident negotiating technical terrain clipped in, the advantages far outweigh any possible drawbacks. WR304's tips are right on target.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

pljam67 said:


> WR304, thanks for your post. I've been riding about 9 months, racing for 3 and feel like it's getting time to make the switch to clipless. I still dab a foot down about once every ride and it's good to know that you can unclip and still pedal through sketchy sections. That is just what I needed to know to make the switch. I tried clipless early on, but like tommyrod said, my skills were not up to par and I was not ready for clipless. Now it's getting to where I have to work to keep my feet on the pedals and in the right position, so I'm gonna give clipless another shot.


The golden rule with clipless pedals is to unclip first and then stop. Stopping and then trying to unclip is much harder.

The important thing is to make sure you have the right pedals and shoes. Some combinations have drawbacks. A good beginner pedal would be the Shimano M424 SPD pedal. It has a surrounding plastic cage (slightly less slippy than the M545 metal version when wet) which provides a larger pedalling platform for added security. It also has adjustable spring release tension.

The fit of cycling shoes is very much a personal thing. I'm using Specialized BG Expert MTB shoes at the moment (modified as per the picture in post #66) and have been quite happy with them. What works for one person may not for someone else though. What you can look out for is the sole design. Some MTB cycling shoes have awful sole designs if you ever need to walk in them or ride clipped out - things that can be important when riding offroad.

I've attached a couple of pictures of what *not* to look for in a MTB cycling shoe below. One picture compares the tread width of a Sidi Dominator 5 MTB shoe sole with a Specialized BG Expert MTB shoe sole, showing the difference in tread design and width. Ideally, you want a shoe sole which is quite wide, flat and has tread that extends to the edges of the sole for walking stability. Some mountain bike shoes (eg: Sidi Dominator 5 MTB ) have very narrow tread sections. The same tread sections are used for many sizes of Sidi shoes rather than scaling with shoe size. When you stand on them your foot and ankle isn't supported that well, especially in larger sizes. You could potentially twist your ankle as it's easy for the foot to roll over to one side. Trying to walk along a rocky track wearing high heels is one analogy.:eekster:

You need to make sure the midsoles of your MTB cycling shoes are grippy enough to be able to safely ride clipped out on top of an SPD pedal when needed. Different MTB cycling shoe sole designs are very variable. They often have bare plastic or carbon fibre midsoles. When you get some mud or water on the sole of a shoe like this there's no grip at all clipped out - your foot will slide straight off the metal SPD pedal which can be dangerous and hurt your confidence.

The picture below is the sole of a Shimano M182N MTB cycling shoe. The midsole of the Shimano M182N MTB cycling shoe consists of bare plastic with bare carbon fibre in the centre and a tiny amount of (very hard) sole material. Trying to ride clipped out on top of SPD pedals with these shoes is going to be slippery and difficult in the dry. In the wet with less friction between the plastic/ carbon fibre sole and metal pedal they're going to be lethal clipped out.

Even where the shoe's midsole isn't bare plastic or carbon fibre the covering is often too hard for the pedal to dig in. It's why I'd suggest gluing a strip of old MTB tyre over the midsole of the shoe as pictured in post #66. Tyre rubber is softer than cycling shoe tread and it means that the metal SPD pedal binding can dig into the tyre rubber providing some grip. A lightly treaded (worn) tyre also has knobs on which will help hold the pedal in place better than a smooth rubber sole. The tyre I used is an old WTB Velociraptor rear tyre.

Pictured below: Shimano M424 pedals have a plastic platform adding stability over smaller SPD pedals. They're a good beginner SPD pedal.

Shimano M182N MTB shoe sole is an example of a midsole that performs poorly offroad if you aren't clipped in. A bare plastic and carbon fibre midsole is very slippery with little friction or grip when wet.

Sidi Dominator 5 MTB and Specialized BG Expert MTB sole comparison. The Sidi sole's tread is narrow and doesn't extend fully to the end of the show making it unstable when walking.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> "Take a chill pill tommy, you're jumping up and down on me like some excited cocker-spaniel.
> 
> What I am telling you is that XC racing is much different that road racing."
> 
> ...




This isn't about you, silly man, the OP was asking clips/flats. If you are annoyed and can't stop yourself from spazzing out... leave!

With that, how about instead of you telling everybody they suck you* present your case that clipless clearly is superior for mtb*. This should be easy for you!

I am waiting...


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

electrik said:


> This isn't about you, silly man, the OP was asking clips/flats. If you are annoyed and can't stop yourself from spazzing out... leave!
> 
> With that, how about instead of you telling everybody they suck you* present your case that clipless clearly is superior for mtb*. This should be easy for you!
> 
> I am waiting...


Can you post the results of an elite/cat 1 XC race where the winner wore flat pedals in the race? I think you are missing the point that this is an* XC racing*/training forum. We're not talking about what is "superior for mtb", but what is superior for XC racing.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

_tom_ said:


> Can you post the results of an elite/cat 1 XC race where the winner wore flat pedals in the race? I think you are missing the point that this is an* XC racing*/training forum. We're not talking about what is "superior for mtb", but what is superior for XC racing.


Sure, but everybody wore clipless probably. I just want to know, where is some actual evidence clipless are clearly superior and not just incidental or trendy. A lot of people have tried to call me out for making such an obvious statement - the emperor has new clothes?

Give me the data to justify these claims that you need clipless shoes to be a winner.


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

Where is your evidence that flats are superior for xc racing?

Until somebody wins an xc race at a high level, I think the onus is on you to prove it...not the other way around.


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## GDubT (Apr 13, 2010)

What type of evidence exactly are you looking for?


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> Sure, but everybody wore clipless probably. I just want to know, where is some actual evidence clipless are clearly superior and not just incidental or trendy. A lot of people have tried to call me out for making such an obvious statement - the emperor has new clothes?
> 
> Give me the data to justify these claims that you need clipless shoes to be a winner.


You do know that flat pedals have existed for a lot longer than clipless, right? If flats were better, and they were here first, then why would everyone make the switch?

Here's an idea... Do what you have to do to upgrade to Cat 1 (yes, it might take a while, we'll wait) and then make the podium... all on flats. Hell, do it in a Cat 2 race with a decent field. Report back and let us know he that goes.

Or if you can't do it, just convince a Cat 1 to do an XC race that matters on flats. Surely your impeccable logic will sway them! Be sure to reference "the emperor's new clothes", that one's a winner.

I mean, it should be easy... right?


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

tommyrod74 said:


> You do know that flat pedals have existed for a lot longer than clipless, right? If flats were better, and they were here first, then why would everyone make the switch?


because it's "trendy" :thumbsup:


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> You do know that flat pedals have existed for a lot longer than clipless, right? If flats were better, and they were here first, then why would everyone make the switch?
> 
> Here's an idea... Do what you have to do to upgrade to Cat 1 (yes, it might take a while, we'll wait) and then make the podium... all on flats. Hell, do it in a Cat 2 race with a decent field. Report back and let us know he that goes.
> 
> ...


Haha, I figured you had no real answer other than monkey see monkey do - Thanks for confirming.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> Haha, I figured you had no real answer other than monkey see monkey do - Thanks for confirming.


And thanks for confirming my suspicions - that you have very little experience with 
XC racing, and thus zero credibility. Also confirming, of course, that your whole viewpoint on this derives from your desire to avoid "groupthink". An admirable trait in some ways, but it's rather vital to know that sometimes, when every serious XC racer shares the same opinion, born of shared experience, it's not sheeplike... it's common sense.

As you made my XC racing experience a relevant topic, how about yours? Results? Category? Frequency? I raced 43 times last year, between XC, road, and cyclocross. Don't try that last one if you find XC racing on dry trails and fat, sticky tires to be "technical".

Some of us (myself included) have been riding MTB since before clipless became de rigeur. We have ridden both. And surprisingly, we didn't have to adapt much to reap the benefits of clipless pedals. It's really not the huge deal you make it out to be.

"Monkey see, monkey do", indeed. Too bad all the monkeys are right, huh?


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> And thanks for confirming my suspicions - that you have very little experience with
> XC racing, and thus zero credibility. Also confirming, of course, that your whole viewpoint on this derives from your desire to avoid "groupthink". An admirable trait in some ways, but it's rather vital to know that sometimes, when every serious XC racer shares the same opinion, born of shared experience, it's not sheeplike... it's common sense.
> 
> As you made my XC racing experience a relevant topic, how about yours? Results? Category? Frequency? I raced 43 times last year, between XC, road, and cyclocross. Don't try that last one if you find XC racing on dry trails and fat, sticky tires to be "technical".
> ...


"Monkey see, monkey do" won't cut it if you want to be right - and you are a far ways away from any sort of solid position like that. :thumbsup:

*Go ahead and post some sort of data(anything please) to justify your extraordinary claim that clipless pedals make everybody go significantly faster.*

I'll check back a while later to see if you're still trying to have a pissing match about which one of us is better or if you actually smartened up and posted something with substance!


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

electrik said:


> *Go ahead and post some sort of data(anything please) to justify your extraordinary claim that clipless pedals make everybody go significantly faster.*


I think you'll find it's you who's making the extraordinary request for request for data as EVERY ride who has ever made the switch form flat to clipless and become accustomed to them has been able to ride faster and more efficiently.

It is though tough to find actual data on this on the web as tests would have been done when toeclips (and hence clipless) were first introduced to the tdf back in 1919. You're just about 100 years behind on this argument.


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

I think it's time to stop feeding the troll, guys.


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## Robbieisbobert (Dec 22, 2007)

The *efficiency* argument about clipless pedals is getting a bit tired out. How about y'all answer these questions to further discussion:

What effect does the switch to clipless pedals from flats have on the competitive effectiveness of XC racers? In other words, is there a noticeable difference on how well you can do in an XC race based on the type of pedal you ride? Are you placed at a severe disadvantage by going against the grain and riding platforms? Please support your assertions with examples and/or statistical data.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

marzjennings said:


> I think you'll find it's you who's making the extraordinary request for request for data as EVERY ride who has ever made the switch form flat to clipless and become accustomed to them has been able to ride faster and more efficiently.
> 
> It is though tough to find actual data on this on the web as tests would have been done when toeclips (and hence clipless) were first introduced to the tdf back in 1919. You're just about 100 years behind on this argument.


I don't get it, if it is SO obvious then i'm sure you can EASILY support your opinions... if you guys want to say i like clipless because they feel better or i like clipless because i fit in and the pros all have it, go ahead. I have an issue to swallow the fact platforms are what is holding me back from being a winner. Keep trying to ram that "fact" down people's throat if you want - your business - but did you ever stop to think maybe you could be just a bit dishonest in doing so? Maybe you shouldn't offer up clipless as performance enhancing to people without some actual quantitative results.

One more thing, don't think I am trying to make people on the TDF wear platforms. TDF/Road racing is different than XC racing, for one where are our aero helmets?! :skep:


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

*Flat Pedals and Choosing the Most Appropriate Shoes*
It's worth considering how a flat pedal works. Without a binding or strap your foot is held in place on the pedal by downwards force only. Flat pedals are usually made of metal or plastic and the soles of most shoes are made from rubber. Friction between the shoe and pedal helps stops your foot from sliding off the pedal.

*Friction*
_"In physics, friction is the resistive force, the physical deformation and the heat buildup that occurs when two surfaces travel along each other whilst forced together.
The friction-force is a function of the force pressing the surfaces together and the friction coefficient of the material interface."_

http://encyclopedia.kids.net.au/page/fr/Friction

*Flat Pedals*
In order to maximise grip (friction) flat pedals often have a large surface area and use metal pins which dig into the sole of the shoe to help keep your foot in place. The picture below is of a Point One Podium flat pedal. Pedals of this design are currently more popular than "beartrap" pedals.

http://www.singletrackworld.com/reviews/online-grouptest-flat-pedals/

*Sole Design for flat pedals *
Most MTB shoes which are designed for clipless pedals are completely useless with flat pedals. The tread design, stiff curved sole and hard compound of the shoe tread mean you have zero grip riding on them with pinned flat pedals.

The most effective sole for use with a pinned flat pedal, such as the Point One Podium, is a completely smooth lightly treaded design in a soft rubber compound. This maximises the contact area between the shoe and pedal. Standard shoe soles don't perform as well with flat pedals because the sole is often sculpted with a cut away instep or has an aggressive tread pattern. They also tend to use harder rubber compounds which are too hard for the pins in the flat pedal to dig into.

A typical pair of Nike or Reebok trainers, running shoes or hiking boots will perform poorly with flat pedals for these reasons. The shoes pictured below are Nike Zoom Equalon 4+ running shoes. When compared to a shoe such as the Five Tens or Vans they offer a dramatically worse experience when riding, particularly in the wet.

Shoes designed for use with flat pedals have a flat sole made of soft rubber in order to maximise contact and friction betweeen the shoe sole and pedal. The soft rubber of the sole also allows the metal pins of the pedal to dig in deeply, helping the foot to stay in position on the pedal whilst riding. The picture below is of a Five Ten Impact 2 Low MTB shoe. The Five Ten Impact 2 Low MTB shoe is a popular choice for use with flat pedals which is why I'm using it as a specific example here.

http://fiveten.com/products/footwear-detail/28-impact-low

It features what Five Ten call a "stealth rubber" sole which was originally used for climbing shoes.

http://www.stealthrubber.com/lab.php

The strengths of a combination such as this are that a large pinned flat pedal combined with a soft grippy rubber shoe sole can produce quite a lot of friction. So long as there's some downwards force on the flat pedal the shoe is going to stay in place, especially in the dry. When you start adding outside factors the amount of grip (friction) can be reduced dramatically however.

*Coefficient Of Friction*
_"The force required to move two sliding surfaces over each other, divided by the force holding them together. It is reduced once the motion has started"_

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/coefficient+of+friction

*Factors affecting the friction between surfaces *

_"Dry surfaces
1.For low surface pressures the friction is directly proportional to the pressure between the surfaces. As the pressure rises the friction factor rises slightly. At very high pressure the friction factor then quickly increases to seizing
2.For low surface pressures the coefficient of friction is independent of surface area.
3.At low velocities the friction is independent of the relative surface velocity. At higher velocities the coefficent of friction decreases.

Well lubricated surfaces
1.The friction resistance is almost independent of the specific pressure between the surfaces. 
2.At low pressures the friction varies directly as the relative surface speed 
3.At high pressures the friction is high at low velocities falling as the velocity increases to a minimum at about 0,6m/s. The friction then rises in proportion the velocity 2.
4.The friction is not so dependent of the surface materials
5.The friction is related to the temperature which affects the viscosity of the lubricant"_

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Tribology/co_of_frict.htm

*Flat Pedals in the Wet*
Whilst mountain biking (in the UK anyway) you can expect water and mud to regularly be splashed onto the sole of the shoe and pedal. This water and mud acts as a lubricant between the two surfaces. This can dramatically reduce the amount of grip (friction) produced between the shoe sole and pedal, making it easier for the shoe to slide off the pedal in wet conditions if you're not careful. This effect is more pronounced when you have lower levels of grip (friction) to begin with, such as when riding in normal trainers instead of Five Ten shoes.

The connection of a cycling shoe that is securely clipped into a clipless pedal in contrast will be unaffected by wet conditions. You can continue pedalling normally without the worry of your feet slipping off the pedals whilst clipped in. Clipless pedals do have the weakness that the cleats can clog in very muddy conditions or in deep packed snow however.

*Sole Design whilst walking*
Although a flat smooth sole, as featured on the Five Ten shoes, is preferable for pedalling with flat pedals it can have disadvantages if you have to dismount and walk offroad. A smooth soled shoe in muddy conditions offers very little grip. Trying to push your bike up a steep muddy bank in smooth soled shoes for example is very challenging. Sometimes it's almost impossible.:eekster:

Because MTB cycling shoes don't have the same requirements to provide a large contact area between the sole and pedal (you're clipped in when pedalling so shoe sole / pedal friction isn't as important) the soles can be designed to perform better when offroad in mud. The sole of an MTB cycling shoe can be designed so that it resembles a football boot with a spiked tread. They often have a set of toe studs mounted on the toe also to maximise traction. A shoe such as this offers more grip and a significant advantage if you do have to get off and push in muddy conditions.

Pictured below: Point One Podium Flat Pedal is a typical design consisting of a large pedal body and metal pins which dig into the shoe sole

Five Ten Impact Low 2/ Nike Zoom Equalon+ 4 Running Shoe/ Specialized BG Expert sole comparison


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

electrik said:


> I don't get it, if it is SO obvious then i'm sure you can EASILY support your opinions... if you guys want to say i like clipless because they feel better or i like clipless because i fit in and the pros all have it, go ahead. I have an issue to swallow the fact platforms are what is holding me back from being a winner. Keep trying to ram that "fact" down people's throat if you want - your business - but did you ever stop to think maybe you could be just a bit dishonest in doing so? Maybe you shouldn't offer up clipless as performance enhancing to people without some actual quantitative results.
> 
> One more thing, don't think I am trying to make people on the TDF wear platforms. TDF/Road racing is different than XC racing, for one where are our aero helmets?! :skep:


i have raced DH and XC. have raced DH with both flats and clipless.

although my data is anecdotal, i always picked clipless pedals for DH courses like Fontana where there is a long sprint. same sprint just wasn't as fast on flats due most likely to poor form when fatigued (couldn't use the crutch that my foot was attached). before you rail me, i was running extra long studs with 510's and they gripped well, but not enough to make up for fatigue and bumps in the terrain during a sprint.

i would never choose to race XC with flats. just no reason to run heavier shoe and pedal combos. clipless is way better for this application. there are no XC courses that i have ever ridden where flats would be an advantage.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

whybotherme said:


> i have raced DH and XC. have raced DH with both flats and clipless.
> 
> although my data is anecdotal, i always picked clipless pedals for DH courses like Fontana where there is a long sprint. same sprint just wasn't as fast on flats due most likely to poor form when fatigued (couldn't use the crutch that my foot was attached). before you rail me, i was running extra long studs with 510's and they gripped well, but not enough to make up for fatigue and bumps in the terrain during a sprint.
> 
> i would never choose to race XC with flats. just no reason to run heavier shoe and pedal combos. clipless is way better for this application. there are no XC courses that i have ever ridden where flats would be an advantage.


Another top Cat 1 (whose wife happens to be a top pro racer) and you get the same answer. Imagine that.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

whybotherme said:


> i have raced DH and XC. have raced DH with both flats and clipless.
> 
> although my data is anecdotal, i always picked clipless pedals for DH courses like Fontana where there is a long sprint. same sprint just wasn't as fast on flats due most likely to poor form when fatigued (couldn't use the crutch that my foot was attached). before you rail me, i was running extra long studs with 510's and they gripped well, but not enough to make up for fatigue and bumps in the terrain during a sprint.
> 
> i would never choose to race XC with flats. just no reason to run heavier shoe and pedal combos. clipless is way better for this application. there are no XC courses that i have ever ridden where flats would be an advantage.


I'm not out to rail people's experience or deride them as amateurs.

All I want is some good old fashioned facts, you know, not a bunch of parking-lot talk. Yes platforms are usually several grams heavier than clips, but 29r wheels are heavier than 26" wheels, yet apparently result in faster times, the world is a strange place where "common sense" doesn't always add up. I'm not sure which courses you mention, but would running flats on those xc races be a distinct disadvantage? Personally I have found, what seem to be, bad biomechanical habits develop with clipless shoes, like pulling up and pushing forward. This is immediately punished on flats which is frustrating if you switch types.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> There are a few studies comparing clipless pedals to toe clips and flat pedals linked in this long thread:
> 
> http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=52152
> 
> ...


Ok, I can't read the actual first study, but their conclusions seem to contradict the study on electromyography, which said muscular activity on "pulling up" was lower. The results of the first study which state maximal efficiency was improved do not state if this was simply net mechanical efficiency, which was apparently reduced by force feedback clipless use in the 3rd study(by 10% for elite cyclists) linked. The last study states that toe-clips on the test bicycle won't reduce your submaximal o2 levels.

I am also wondering if in the first study if any of the regional and international cyclists used platforms regularly... it seems unlikely(the 3rd study did a better job of isolating this), so i would consider that a bias because pedaling strokes are different - lots of guys like to pedal and trained to pedal in perfect circles and that puts platforms on a lower standing with the same athlete who uses a clipless technique on a platform.

Anyways, interesting results... feel free to point out anything else.

BTW I bet riding bent with flats is harder, since gravity is pulling your feet off not down onto the pedals.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

electrik said:


> I don't get it, if it is SO obvious then i'm sure you can EASILY support your opinions... if you guys want to say i like clipless because they feel better or i like clipless because i fit in and the pros all have it, go ahead. I have an issue to swallow the fact platforms are what is holding me back from being a winner. Keep trying to ram that "fact" down people's throat if you want - your business - but did you ever stop to think maybe you could be just a bit dishonest in doing so? Maybe you shouldn't offer up clipless as performance enhancing to people without some actual quantitative results.
> 
> One more thing, don't think I am trying to make people on the TDF wear platforms. TDF/Road racing is different than XC racing, for one where are our aero helmets?! :skep:


It is easy to support the fact the clipless pedal makes faster riders, because every rider on the podium of every XC race at international, national and local racers will have used clipless pedals, period.

If there was the chance that a rider could win or even position with flats it would have happened.

Yes, it is fact, not riding clipless is holding you back.

When it comes to roadie racing and XC, pedaling is pedaling. Terrain doesn't affect the most efficient pedaling form.


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## shapelike (Dec 2, 2008)

http://forums.mtbr.com/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=463619 <-- "Add electrik to Your Ignore List"


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## chiplikestoridehisbike (Aug 8, 2007)

"Will I benefit greatly from clipless riding in the face of the dangers that they pose by being clipped in?"

Use the multi release cleats and set the tension with something you feel comfortable with at first. I have ridden traps, the old burly bear trap looking flats and spd's. When clipless first came out I thought they would be dangerous. I can't imagine ridding without them now. Your foot is securely held to the pedal, but comes off when you need it. For XC you should be pedaling, For super technical riding where you may need to put your foot down alot, while going 2 mph clipless may not be the the ticket. Discounting them for XC is kind of like saying a suspension fork is too inefficient and heavy and will just slow you down. Either everyone else has it wrong, and you are on to something (that has already been tried by tons of people) or you may at least give clipless a try.

"Personally I have found, what seem to be, bad biomechanical habits develop with clipless shoes, like pulling up and pushing forward." Actually this is one of the reasons I prefer clipless. I can not always spin perfect tchnique on mtb. I can use "bad" technique to clear a section or stretch out a muscle group on a flat etc.

You can always switch back if it doesn't work for you.


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

even Kabush (ex-Canadian DH racer, now a World Cup XC racer) doesn't run flats and would probably laugh if asked to race a World Cup on flats. DH racers that are way faster than i can dream of being like Steve Peat ride clipless. certainly there is no drawback to being connected to the bike, but losing a pedal can cost time, and cause crashes/injury!

studies on pedal mechanics do not include the primary variable that is likely to destroy the argument for flats, bumps!

in all honesty, i say race what you feel fits your comfort level. if you aren't confident enough in your riding to clip in and flats work for you, that is awesome! race the heck out of them!

race and have fun, that is the point right?


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

marzjennings said:


> It is easy to support the fact the clipless pedal makes faster riders, because every rider on the podium of every XC race at international, national and local racers will have used clipless pedals, period.
> 
> If there was the chance that a rider could win or even position with flats it would have happened.
> 
> ...


Actually, a study posted by another reveal this pulling up stuff isn't the most mechanically efficient form. What I had read previously somewhere was related to an increased average cadence, but if the mechanics of this aggressive pulling-up hold you back that could negate your benefits of increased cadence... just a thought.

The fact no XC pro uses platforms isn't great evidence to accept clipless are superior for XC. This has todo with the problem that not all XC pro's make superior equipment choices, that the actual role of pedal interfaces in XC victory is unclear and the fact victory by pedal interface choice is often dwarfed by other factors in situ(such as a competitor flatting or crashing)

I am still not sure platforms are holding me back, it is just my stubbornness perhaps


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## Combatcm (Nov 15, 2005)

You are beyond stubborn


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

whybotherme said:



> even Kabush (ex-Canadian DH racer, now a World Cup XC racer) doesn't run flats and would probably laugh if asked to race a World Cup on flats. DH racers that are way faster than i can dream of being like Steve Peat ride clipless. certainly there is no drawback to being connected to the bike, but losing a pedal can cost time, and cause crashes/injury!
> 
> studies on pedal mechanics do not include the primary variable that is likely to destroy the argument for flats, bumps!
> 
> ...


Oh, he is ex-Canadian huh? Hah. What about that Sam Hill guy? He seems to be doing ok.

You're right your foot is less likely to come off when bumped, but then you also have a chance to very quickly dab a foot to prevent a crash or modify your centre of mass. When I was using toe-clips it was awful, like a straight jacket. I ditched those once i found sticky flat shoes like 5.10 and 661.

My main lack of confidence is in the clipless interface actually speeding me up in a meaningful way, but you're right I am less confident on clipless than flats... I have spent a lot of uninterrupted time on flats riding everything from skinnies to xc races, so you can imagine why i don't recommend clipless as required gear... to me they aren't.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

OP, it's best to do both because using flat pedal can teach you smoothness. When it comes to racing style, and forms means nothing if you can get there sooner than another racer. I've been using clipless for 7-8 years then I started doing more technical riding and add flat pedal to the rotations. First few rides were eye opening I found myself lifting/pulling a lot instead of pedaling smoothly.

I do about 50/50 now on my ride keeping it fresh.:thumbsup:

Racers want to look like racers before they even start racing. I race for fun not for a living, there are plenty of sand baggers so I don't care much about the podium the reward is being there racing with others who enjoy the sport as much as I do. 

Even if the flat pedal is better you would not see them riding with one, I guarantee it. I do hope some of the serious racers are more friendly though, I took a few kids to the race cheering they did not get a good vibe from some great riders they are cheering. The pros or the less serious classes are more friendly.:thumbsup:


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> Ok, I can't read the actual first study.


*The effect of clip-less pedals on mechanical characteristics measured during sprinting on a non-isokinetic cycle ergometer* 
by F. Hintzy, A. Belli, F. Grappe and J.D. Rouillon

This is a working link to the abstract that I quoted. The original link was broken by the forum.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0765-1597(99)80055-0


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## chiplikestoridehisbike (Aug 8, 2007)

"but then you also have a chance to very quickly dab a foot to prevent a crash or modify your centre of mass"

Is this a technique you use while racing XC?


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> Oh, he is ex-Canadian huh? Hah. What about that Sam Hill guy? He seems to be doing ok.
> 
> You're right your foot is less likely to come off when bumped, but then you also have a chance to very quickly dab a foot to prevent a crash or modify your centre of mass. When I was using toe-clips it was awful, like a straight jacket. I ditched those once i found sticky flat shoes like 5.10 and 661.
> 
> My main lack of confidence is in the clipless interface actually speeding me up in a meaningful way, but you're right I am less confident on clipless than flats... I have spent a lot of uninterrupted time on flats riding everything from skinnies to xc races, so you can imagine why i don't recommend clipless as required gear... to me they aren't.


Yep, Sam Hill is a great example of a World Cup - level XC racer who wins on flats.

Clipless isn't required to enter a race. If your goal is not to win, run what you want.

When I raced BMX, I rode street and trails (dirt jumping) on flats, and raced/trained on clipless. Never had any issues going back and forth. Would occasionally forget and leave the clipless pedals on for a session at the dirt jumps. 20+ foot gap doubles on a twitchy 20" BMX bike, no problems. Could even unclip in midair for one-footers and reclip before landing. Really not a big deal.

Flats do help teach good technique, but there's really no harm in "cheating" when hopping over obstacles with the help of clipless. And yes, I can do a real bunnyhop on flats, and have been able to for 30 years.

If I still rode North Shore-type stuff like I did 5+ years ago, I'd run flats, especially if that was the majority of my riding. But, oddly enough, there aren't a lot of elevated skinnies on XC race courses.

It just sounds more and more like clipless isn't FOR YOU and your admitted low confidence level on techy terrain. That's fine. It's even agreeable to state that flats are more beginner-friendly, that most new riders would be best served learning to ride flats first then transitioning over to clipless if riding mostly XC terrain. You can even state that flats are a viable alternative for those riding super-tech terrain or uncomfortable clipping in, and be perfectly correct.

But when you state that flat pedals are superior to clipless for XC racing, you are just plain wrong. And you can continue to be wrong if you like. No one agrees, and if that just makes you more convinced we're all brainwashed, that might say something about you.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

mimi1885 said:


> using flat pedal can teach you smoothness. When it comes to racing style, and forms means nothing if you can get there sooner than another racer. I've been using clipless for 7-8 years then I started doing more technical riding and add flat pedal to the rotations. First few rides were eye opening I found myself lifting/pulling a lot instead of pedaling smoothly.


That's something which is worth considering. Whilst pedalling using flat pedals you have to constantly maintain a downward pressure on the pedal throughout the entire crank revolution (including the upstroke) or your foot will fall off the pedal.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7740547&postcount=89

*elektrik* raises a really good point in Post #101, namely that he has had a lot of experience riding with flat pedals. Pedalling is very much a learned skill. With practice I'm sure that you can adjust your pedal stroke to optimise power delivery when using flat pedals. A rider who's spent a lot of time on flat pedals may be able to pedal significantly better using them than a rider who hasn't.

The same is true with clipless pedals. It takes time to learn the technique for getting the best out of clipless pedals when pedalling also.

*Pedalling Load Forces During a Crank Revolution*
The diagram below shows the pedal load spread over a single crank revolution for a US National Team cyclist. This pedal load diagram is almost certainly recorded using clipless pedals. It demonstrates that pedalling force isn't circular. Even with clipless pedals there's typically no muscular upwards force exerted during the upstroke.

When you look at how the pedalling force of each leg is distributed over a single crank revolution it isn't even. The vast majority of pedal load is produced during the downstroke between 2 o'clock and 6 o'clock. There's a single large peak of power and torque delivered at that point. The rest of the crank revolution produces very little load in comparison. After the main downstroke some pedal load is created at the top and bottom of the pedal stroke.

*Power Oscillations During the Crank Revolution*
If you take both legs pedalling together the power output over a single crank revolution takes the form of a sine wave, which is a series of peaks and troughs. There are two peaks per crank revolution as each leg produces its maximum pedal load in turn. There are also two troughs per crank revolution where very little power is produced in comparison.

I suspect that the amplitude of these torque peaks and troughs is likely to be higher pedalling with flat pedals than with clipless pedals. That's not a good thing offroad as you want a smooth power delivery to maximise rear wheel traction. If you're going to create the same total pedal load per crank revolution then the flat pedal needs to create more pedal load on the downstroke 2 o'clock to 6 o'clock section to make up for lost power elsewhere in the crank revolution.

The reason is that you have to keep downwards pressure on the flat pedal to stop your foot coming off (even on the upstroke). This downwards pressure on the pedal being raised upwards is effectively working against your other leg's downstroke. There are also likely to be losses at the top and bottom of the pedal stroke where it's much harder to produce power with flat pedals because the downwards pressure on the flat pedal has to be maintained.

*Pedal Forces During Mountain Biking*
_During our 10 years of pedaling mechanics testing, we noticed that some elite mountain bikers exhibited markedly more uniform pedaling (generating larger effective forces at the top and bottom of the pedal cycle) than cyclists in other disciplines. Similar observations of sprinters revealed the opposite - they seemed to employ a "mashing style", generating the most torque during the downstroke. 
...
Mountain racers exhibit more uniform pedaling technique (i.e., more constant net crank torque) than cyclists in other disciplines as measured in the laboratory. Whether mountain racers employ these techniques while riding on single track trails is unknown. If the premise that mountain racers acquire these skills because of exposure to conditions requiring more uniform torque generation - such as climbing in loose soil - is true, then we would certainly expect these pedaling skills to emerge off road, and perhaps even more so._
*High Tech Cycling edited by Edmund R. Burke - Chapter 5 Cycling Biomechanics: Road and Mountain by Jeffrey P Broker Pages 135 & 137*

Pictured below: pedalling force throughout the pedal stroke with a round chainring.
Taken from *High Tech Cycling edited by Edmund R. Burke - Chapter 5 Cycling Biomechanics: Road and Mountain by Jeffrey P Broker Page 131*

Pictured below: Varying power output over a single crank revolution showing differences between cyclists from different disciplines. Taken from: 
*High Tech Cycling edited by Edmund R. Burke - Chapter 5 Cycling Biomechanics: Road and Mountain by Jeffrey P Broker Page 137*

http://www.amazon.co.uk/High-Tech-C...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280444331&sr=1-1

(Although it's fairly old now it's still a good book and worth buying.)


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

electrik said:


> Oh, he is ex-Canadian huh?


no... ex-Canadian DH racer. as in he is no longer a DH racer.


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## Okie81 (Apr 7, 2010)

Aside from the chest bumping and shaved legs talk, this has been a very informative thread


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

WR304 said:


> That's something which is worth considering. Whilst pedalling using flat pedals you have to constantly maintain a downward pressure on the pedal throughout the entire crank revolution (including the upstroke) or your foot will fall off the pedal.
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7740547&postcount=89
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link.

I think mainly it's the level of comfort, I switch to flat because I start learning new skills and re-train old bad habits especially bunny hop, I used to cheat and pull up with my pedal:nono: After a few months on the flats seem to help that a lot. Now I can do the right way with CL.

I share the view with elektrik, but not when it comes to racing, racers should use clipless pedals. When I go trail riding I want to practice and try something fun, flat pedal help me with that. I can try drops without any worry about bailing out mid air.

I ride most other trails with clipless, one less thing to think about. Don't have to think about pedaling:thumbsup: I just found it amusing to see some riders on the trail insisting that all riders should be using clipless because they are the most difficult skill to acquired, and those who's on flat have less skills.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

mimi1885 said:


> When I go trail riding I want to practice and try something fun, flat pedal help me with that. I can try drops without any worry about bailing out mid air.


Like this? :eekster:


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

That's bad a$$, it looks like the guys is really flying. what's up with the pants


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

chiplikestoridehisbike said:


> "but then you also have a chance to very quickly dab a foot to prevent a crash or modify your centre of mass"
> 
> Is this a technique you use while racing XC?


Yeah Chip, it is, dabbing a foot or dragging a foot through a corner is a great way to over-take a competitor on clips in a corner who is not going to be going to the limit. You can almost always corner better this way and corner better on bumpy ground where a clipless rider might nancy around the bumps. Better cornering gives you much more opportunity to over-take.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> Yep, Sam Hill is a great example of a World Cup - level XC racer who wins on flats.
> 
> Clipless isn't required to enter a race. If your goal is not to win, run what you want.
> 
> ...


Look, i'm sure you've done a lot of riding, i'm not trying to dismiss that - ok?

I'm going to keep telling people this until they hear it, people are recommending clipless over flats, I really don't think either pedal is a significant advantage. I have never stated clipless are clearly inferior, why you think that i don't know. I want you guys to prove the opposite and backup those recommendations - that clipless are superior! If you ask me, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I mentioned Sam Hill because whybotherme brought down-hilling up, going on about how you need clipless to win because your feet fly off pedals. Obviously though, we have a clear counter-example in the form of somebody who has ridden and won on the most "bumpy" courses on this planet! I'm sure his feet come off the pedal occasionally... but he wins somehow! This begs the question about XC racing, maybe if there was a pro who wasn't pushed into clipless and spent their time on flats he might win also?

There are some zealots who think, without any solid quantitative evidence, you need clipless shoes to win. If it's not the bike, as one rider says, why on earth then is it the shoes?


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

electrik said:


> Look, i'm sure you've done a lot of riding, i'm not trying to dismiss that - ok?
> 
> I'm going to keep telling people this until they hear it, people are recommending clipless over flats, I really don't think either pedal is a significant advantage. I have never stated clipless are clearly inferior, why you think that i don't know. I want you guys to prove the opposite and backup those recommendations - that clipless are superior! If you ask me, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
> 
> ...


Elektrik, I feel your passion but like tommy stated it's a loosing battle. This is XC racing and training, not AM or General discussion. You can never win this argument even if tomorrow Jesus won an WC race on a flat and 5.10, they don't want to hear it.:thumbsup:

In general the downward press is more powerful than upward pull, regardless of muscle groups that use to spin a Clipless pedal. The downward muscle group would overwhelm the upward power any revolution. If riders spend time concentrating on up stroke it would not make the full power than concentrating on downstroke alone, clipless or flats. I does not make a whole lot of sense to focus on some small groups muscle in the name of efficiency, when large and stronger muscles would do better job more efficiently.

Racing is not about being efficient it's about max power or endurance, I don't see why they should not use clipless, it one less thing to think about as the feet is clipped in to the pedal and rider do not have to focus pedaling in circle the pedal helps make that happen. As far as unclipping from the pedal try doing trackstand with the clipless, it teaches you to not panic in any situation, I did that it worked for me.:thumbsup:


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## chiplikestoridehisbike (Aug 8, 2007)

"You can almost always corner better this way and corner better on bumpy ground where a clipless rider might nancy around the bumps" 

Elec. I am familiar with 3 legging turns and use it when needed. For me that is usually on loose downhill sweepers, which is very limited on the XC courses I have done. I can't imagine it being faster on almost every corner, but it sounds like we have different experiences and a different ridding style. Hope you have a great season this year.


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## gixer7 (Jul 26, 2007)

electrik said:


> Yeah Chip, it is, dabbing a foot or dragging a foot through a corner is a great way to over-take a competitor on clips in a corner who is not going to be going to the limit. You can almost always corner better this way and corner better on bumpy ground where a clipless rider might nancy around the bumps. Better cornering gives you much more opportunity to over-take.


Are you actually suggesting that riding clips means you can't rail a corner on the limit? That riding clips means you have to nancy around bumps?

Cause that is the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread so far.

Just checking that we are still talking about XC racing???


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

electrik said:


> Yeah Chip, it is, dabbing a foot or dragging a foot through a corner is a great way to over-take a competitor on clips in a corner who is not going to be going to the limit. .


dabbing a foot or dragging a foot through a corner is a great way to over-take _any_ competitor in a corner who is not going to be going to the limit.

Also, just because a riders is using clipless doesn't mean they are always in them. Part of the skill of using tools and techniques is knowing when to use them or not. Quick and elegant ingress and egress form the pedals is a part of knowing how to use them. As with any tool or technique if you are good at getting in or getting out it as instantaneous as a good shift.


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## rubystreet (Dec 8, 2007)

gixer7 said:


> Are you actually suggesting that riding clips means you can't rail a corner on the limit? That riding clips means you have to nancy around bumps?
> 
> Cause that is the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread so far.
> 
> Just checking that we are still talking about XC racing???


HAH That is exactly what I was thinking!

Heaven forbid that a decent rider can also unclip, dab, and reclip.

And funny how world cup DHers corner with both feet on the pedals.


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

electrik said:


> Yeah Chip, it is, dabbing a foot or dragging a foot through a corner is a great way to over-take a competitor on clips in a corner who is not going to be going to the limit. You can almost always corner better this way and corner better on bumpy ground where a clipless rider might nancy around the bumps. Better cornering gives you much more opportunity to over-take.


How many opportunities like this present themselves in an XC race vs. how much time is spent climbing? Believe me, I have raced XC on flats and tried winning on the descents, it doesn't work. XC races are won on the climbs, bottom line.

You are raising some very good points, I just don't think they are relevant in XC racing.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

mimi1885 said:


> Elektrik, I feel your passion but like tommy stated it's a loosing battle. This is XC racing and training, not AM or General discussion. You can never win this argument even if tomorrow Jesus won an WC race on a flat and 5.10, they don't want to hear it.:thumbsup:
> 
> In general the downward press is more powerful than upward pull, regardless of muscle groups that use to spin a Clipless pedal. The downward muscle group would overwhelm the upward power any revolution. If riders spend time concentrating on up stroke it would not make the full power than concentrating on downstroke alone, clipless or flats. I does not make a whole lot of sense to focus on some small groups muscle in the name of efficiency, when large and stronger muscles would do better job more efficiently.
> 
> Racing is not about being efficient it's about max power or endurance, I don't see why they should not use clipless, it one less thing to think about as the feet is clipped in to the pedal and rider do not have to focus pedaling in circle the pedal helps make that happen. As far as unclipping from the pedal try doing trackstand with the clipless, it teaches you to not panic in any situation, I did that it worked for me.:thumbsup:


Yes, XC is just a category and imaginary lines are drawn in the sand. So it goes. I'm not out to convince people like tommy, they have too much invested in a certain way to consider change... but should somebody decide they want to race in flats I see no actual reason to discourage them or feed them lines that they can't win unless they have the right shoes.

I trackstand regularly(i road ride in clips) in clipless and flats, it's not about the pedal interface.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

_tom_ said:


> How many opportunities like this present themselves in an XC race vs. how much time is spent climbing? Believe me, I have raced XC on flats and tried winning on the descents, it doesn't work. XC races are won on the climbs, bottom line.
> 
> You are raising some very good points, I just don't think they are relevant in XC racing.


I'm not going to get into the issues of why one can't ride up a hill without clipless or some such thing...

Some people already had their minds made up long ago (probably as soon as they bought a pair, why else would they) that clipless was better, case closed, so I am flogging a dead horse for them, just another polemic, but if you look without broken eyes there are some actual reasons to doubt clipless is the clear choice and if you've spent your time on flats till now? What then.

If you think flats have no place on an XC course, that is fine, but - Why try to convince me? Tell Robbie he should use clipless instead of flats and if he asks why I hope you don't feed him the party line, but instead some real researched facts.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

electrik said:


> I'm not going to get into the issues of why one can't ride up a hill without clipless or some such thing...
> 
> Some people already had their minds made up long ago (probably as soon as they bought a pair, why else would they) that clipless was better, case closed, so I am flogging a dead horse for them, just another polemic, but if you look without broken eyes there are some actual reasons to doubt clipless is the clear choice and if you've spent your time on flats till now? What then.
> 
> If you think flats have no place on an XC course, that is fine, but - Why try to convince me? Tell Robbie he should use clipless instead of flats and if he asks why I hope you don't feed him the party line, but instead some real researched facts.


I raced twice with flats, I did not notice any disadvantage at all especially climbing. The experience was positive when I hit traffic I just jump out and start running comfortably. Then again, I'm not out there grinding for any trophy or ranking, I was just out there having a time of my life killing myself along with others.

Getting thru some lame switchbacks I was on the bike with my seat all the way down chatting with others I heard some comments like "I wish I bring my flats and adj seatpost". I got thru that section w/o dabbing or walking, traffic was pretty bad the gap was about 2-3 mins. Less pressure for me on the next climb.

I'd race again with flats and clipless depending on how I feel. It's ridiculous to say that CL would be better, better fitness would give you better chance of finishing high on the rank not the type of pedals you use. Clipless sure make you look like you belong in the real Mtb scene I don't care what they think? I'll do what I like to do I've seen both side I know what's better for me.

My favorite is the newbie rides there's always some noobs with shinny new clipless who want to give me advice that I should switch because CL is far more superior because you can "pull" the pedal, it's more "efficient". But that's casual riding, I've not yet seen a serious racers with lame stroke, they have it down pretty good.:thumbsup:


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> I have never stated clipless are clearly inferior, why you think that i don't know. I want you guys to prove the opposite and backup those recommendations - that clipless are superior!


I've got a non- racing scenario where clipless pedals are clearly superior. It could also apply in a racing scenario if you were doing an endurance race or stage race such as the Cape Epic.

Imagine that you're out riding, and then suddenly there's a catastophic failure such as when one of your pedal axles snaps! :madman: Leaving you with a fully functional mountain bike apart from it having one missing pedal.

You're miles from anywhere and by an unlucky coincidence the home phone line has broken that morning, so there's no possibility of outside assistance or ringing for a lift home either.:skep:

If you were using flat pedals then you'd be stranded with no option but to coast/ push the bike for the long journey home. It's impossible to pedal with a single flat pedal as you can't lift the pedal through the upstroke phase of the crank revolution.

With clipless pedals however you can pedal one legged making it possible to return home in a far quicker time. In this case using flat pedals would have been a far worse choice as it would take hours longer to get home walking.

It may sound far fetched but that's the story of the ride I did today. I was quite glad that I had clipless pedals.

Pictured below: Even with a snapped pedal axle you can still ride home one legged using clipless pedals. Something you can't do on flat pedals.


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## GDubT (Apr 13, 2010)

^---Clipless wins.


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## chiplikestoridehisbike (Aug 8, 2007)

Elec, can you provide any facts that clipless are not better than flats for XC racing?


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> I've got a non- racing scenario where clipless pedals are clearly superior. It could also apply in a racing scenario if you were doing an endurance race or stage race such as the Cape Epic.
> 
> Imagine that you're out riding, and then suddenly there's a catastophic failure such as when one of your pedal axles snaps! :madman: Leaving you with a fully functional mountain bike apart from it having one missing pedal.
> 
> ...


Sorry about your luck.. i've done the same on flats - snapped a crank arm off... but didn't have far to go. I just scootered it out, putting a left foot on right pedal and coasting. :thumbsup:

That spindle looks pretty rusted!


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

chiplikestoridehisbike said:


> Elec, can you provide any facts that clipless are not better than flats for XC racing?


How about, if clipless is not proven superior for XC racing then it's status as superior is not proven. What you're asking me, to prove all pedals are the same, isn't my burden, particularly because _i'm not taking a position that there is a superior pedal_. Frankly, there is a distinct lack of conclusive evidence either way. Those studies posted gave conflicting conclusions, some come out against clips and others don't. So when somebody askes me if they have to go clipless I'd tell them no, they don't, there is no solid science either way that a particular pedal interface will give you a great advantage. Sorry to the marketing dept!


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

electrik said:


> I'm not going to get into the issues of why one can't ride up a hill without clipless or some such thing...
> 
> Some people already had their minds made up long ago (probably as soon as they bought a pair, why else would they) that clipless was better, case closed, so I am flogging a dead horse for them, just another polemic, but if you look without broken eyes there are some actual reasons to doubt clipless is the clear choice and if you've spent your time on flats till now? What then.
> 
> If you think flats have no place on an XC course, that is fine, but - Why try to convince me? Tell Robbie he should use clipless instead of flats and if he asks why I hope you don't feed him the party line, but instead some real researched facts.


You're missing the point.

I have used mostly flats for years. I mostly use them now. 5-10's with MG1 pedals. For just riding, they are way more fun. In an XC race, they are not as good as clipless pedals.

I have personally found that I can pedal up the same hill using less energy with clipless pedals because I am not expending energy holding my feet on the pedals. That means I can expend the same level of energy as with flat pedals, and get up the hill faster. I can "ride up a hill" just fine with flat pedals, but we're talking about XC racing here aren't we?

In the XC races we have around here, there is a big fireroad climb, then singletrack descent. Your placing when you get into the singletrack is the deciding factor, because there is little or no passing opportunity once you're in there. It doesn't matter if I'm faster on the descents on flats (which I am) because I will be behind all the guys who beat me up the climb. I know because this has happened to me when racing on flats.

I'm sorry if this is not scientific enough for you...just my own experience. Not towing any "party line" here.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

_tom_ said:


> You're missing the point.
> 
> I have used mostly flats for years. I mostly use them now. 5-10's with MG1 pedals. For just riding, they are way more fun. In an XC race, they are not as good as clipless pedals.
> 
> ...


Well, i think i get what you're saying... but, from what i've read the power transfered by both pedals seems to be about the same and that would probably be the deciding factor on a climb like that. Maybe the way you're pedaling is one issue because i don't know which part of the stroke requires you to put power into keeping your foot on the pedal.

Anyways, no it's not really very scientific, but i appreciate what you're getting at.


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## Combatcm (Nov 15, 2005)

Clipless rocks, anything else sucks


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Combatcm said:


> Clipless rocks, anything else sucks


Which one spd, CB or time


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

electrik said:


> Well, i think i get what you're saying... but, from what i've read the power transfered by both pedals seems to be about the same and that would probably be the deciding factor on a climb like that. Maybe the way you're pedaling is one issue because i don't know which part of the stroke requires you to put power into keeping your foot on the pedal.
> 
> Anyways, no it's not really very scientific, but i appreciate what you're getting at.


Not really "power" to keep your foot on the pedals. Would you agree that it takes some degree of "muscular activity" (for lack of a better word) in order to keep your feet on the pedals as you are pedaling?


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

_tom_ said:


> Not really "power" to keep your foot on the pedals. Would you agree that it takes some degree of "muscular activity" (for lack of a better word) in order to keep your feet on the pedals as you are pedaling?


Unweighting the foot is enough and there probably is a different co-ordination going on. For instance, if you remove your foot from the pedal during the recovery phase it comes off the pedal so one must feel the proper movement ... it doesn't require more power though. Maybe in stabilizing kinetic chain? I doubt it. In a sense maybe flats are more like lifting free-weights and clips are more like using the machine in that sense perhaps... i dunno, grasping at straws to conceptualize what you mean.


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

electrik said:


> i dunno, grasping at straws to conceptualize what you mean.


Just curious...have you ridden with clipless pedals?


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

_tom_ said:


> Just curious...have you ridden with clipless pedals?


Yup, thousands of kilometers, mostly commuting and road riding. Most of my off-road cycling has been done on flats though


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

electrik said:


> Yup, thousands of kilometers, mostly commuting and road riding. Most of my off-road cycling has been done on flats though


Perhaps if you try mountain biking with clipless pedals you might be able to conceptualize what I am talking about.


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

I can't believe I got trolled through 14 pages of this ****.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

_tom_ said:


> Perhaps if you try mountain biking with clipless pedals you might be able to conceptualize what I am talking about.


Relax, I said most of my off-road riding was on flats not that i never off-road with clips.

Trying to shoot the messenger? I guess that is the easy way out, most everybody else has just gone and tried to denounced me as amateur or somehow unqualified. It's ok, I get your conception, it's called you don't know why it's "hard" to pedal flats - it just is - sure and clipless "just is" better... useless information.

Try not to be rude like the other posters, hopefully you understand there is no need to call people trolls.


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## lassiar (Nov 11, 2010)

*I had this really cool idea...*










Like, what if you got all the foot amputees together, and like, used the prosthesis mounts on their legs to hook up some cleats? Imagine the power - and like, no rotated gait or q-factor issues! Bike fitters everywhere would rejoice! At first it would totally stump all the pros, and then once they got beat a few times by my bionic pedal interface, they'd like totally want to get their own custom prosthesis! It would be impossible to deny the advantages of this new system, especially given the ancillary benefits of dramatic weight reduction. Riders would produce more power after rehabilitation, and simultaneously lose 3-6lbs. post-op! With UCI setting minimum weight restrictions on bikes, and the stigma associated with discrimination against the handicapped, this would represent an almost unbeatable workaround!

I'm seriously considering funding a startup in Thailand for athletes to get performance enhancing amputations! Any VCs want in on this?


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

lassiar said:


> Like, what if you got all the foot amputees together, and like, used the prosthesis mounts on their legs to hook up some cleats? Imagine the power - and like, no rotated gait or q-factor issues! Bike fitters everywhere would rejoice! At first it would totally stump all the pros, and then once they got beat a few times by my bionic pedal interface, they'd like totally want to get their own custom prosthesis! It would be impossible to deny the advantages of this new system, especially given the ancillary benefits of dramatic weight reduction. Riders would produce more power after rehabilitation, and simultaneously lose 3-6lbs. post-op! With UCI setting minimum weight restrictions on bikes, and the stigma associated with discrimination against the handicapped, this would represent an almost unbeatable workaround!
> 
> I'm seriously considering funding a startup in Thailand for athletes to get performance enhancing amputations! Any VCs want in on this?


That's a big issue within running (the idea that light carbon fibre prosthetic legs, such as those used by Oscar Pistorius, could actually perform better than normal legs).

http://openprosthetics.ning.com/profiles/blogs/oscar-pistorius-study-released

http://ezinearticles.com/?Oscar-Pistorius-Has-An-Unfair-Advantage-(Again)&id=5636663

The challenge would be designing a prosthetic leg that offers any power output increases over a normal leg whilst cycling.

When it comes to cycling the mechanical requirements are a bit different. The lower weight of a prosthetic leg is easily outweighed by the loss of power output. If you're a lower leg amputee then you also have to bear in mind the discomfort of pedalling on the stump which is a limiting factor. If both your upper and lower leg are missing (or don't work due to being paralysed) then this loss of power is even more pronounced as the majority of cycling power output comes from the hip and upper leg muscles.

Endurance power doesn't decline as much with one working leg but top end sprinting performance is badly affected without two fully working legs.

Have a look at Alex Simmons blog where he compares his power output at different durations before and after losing his lower leg.

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2010/01/power-profiling-now-and-then.html

He also goes into some detail about the setup he uses: 

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/10/my-cycling-leg.html

.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

lassiar said:


> Like, what if you got all the foot amputees together, and like, used the prosthesis mounts on their legs to hook up some cleats? Imagine the power - and like, no rotated gait or q-factor issues! Bike fitters everywhere would rejoice! At first it would totally stump all the pros, and then once they got beat a few times by my bionic pedal interface, they'd like totally want to get their own custom prosthesis! It would be impossible to deny the advantages of this new system, especially given the ancillary benefits of dramatic weight reduction. Riders would produce more power after rehabilitation, and simultaneously lose 3-6lbs. post-op! With UCI setting minimum weight restrictions on bikes, and the stigma associated with discrimination against the handicapped, this would represent an almost unbeatable workaround!
> 
> I'm seriously considering funding a startup in Thailand for athletes to get performance enhancing amputations! Any VCs want in on this?


Hm, they would still need a foot-pad attachment though, otherwise it would probably be unstable to walk on...

I think a better idea might be variable force electro-magnetic shoes and pedals! Sticky flats one section, solid clips the next. Whatever you want, best of both worlds, all in one shoe. Patent pending.


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## lassiar (Nov 11, 2010)

WR304 said:


> That's a big issue within running (the idea that light carbon fibre prosthetic legs, such as those used by Oscar Pistorius, could actually perform better than normal legs).
> 
> The challenge would be designing a prosthetic leg that offers any power output increases over a normal leg whilst cycling.
> 
> ...


Dude, are you deliberately being oblique? I was just talking about removing feet since they're responsible for so many fit/performance issues. You don't need feet to cycle, and by removing them you'd have a near 0mm distance between localized power transfer from the leg and the pedal spindle.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

lassiar said:


> Dude, are you deliberately being oblique? I was just talking about removing feet since they're responsible for so many fit/performance issues. You don't need feet to cycle, and by removing them you'd have a near 0mm distance between localized power transfer from the leg and the pedal spindle.


Then you don't even need the pedal, just rig attachment to the spindle, but how's the rider going to walk around when off the bike on the course.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

lassiar said:


> Dude, are you deliberately being oblique? I was just talking about removing feet since they're responsible for so many fit/performance issues. You don't need feet to cycle, and by removing them you'd have a near 0mm distance between localized power transfer from the leg and the pedal spindle.


Sorry, it's a subject I find interesting nowadays. I wanted to give you a proper answer.

I was focusing on your comment about a prosthetic fitting that would allow an amputee to produce more power when cycling than with a normal limb. It removes one consideration, but then introduces a whole series of new fit and performance issues that have to be addressed.

The Alex Simmons links are a discussion of some of the design considerations and adjustments needed if you have a missing foot. It also shows how much additional power your new bionic pedal interface would need to produce in order to be better than a normal foot when cycling.

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/07/inspector-gadget.html

Your foot and ankle does a surprising amount when cycling. The ankle doesn't stay fixed at 90 degrees throughout the pedalling stroke. The ankle moves whilst you pedal so that your foot stays at roughly the same angle to the pedal the whole time, whether you're sitting down pedalling, standing out of saddle, jumping the bike etc. Not having that movement available can make a big difference and be limiting when riding.

Pictured below: An example of how you use using ankle flexion during mountain biking. The ankle doesn't stay fixed at 90 degrees whilst riding.

Alex Simmons interchangeable walking and cycling foot attachments.


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## lassiar (Nov 11, 2010)

Wow - just wow... It's drier in here than Ben Stein and a tube of golf grip.

Someone said this site was humorous - someone had an outmoded sense of humor. The only thing this site is good for is networking and information. Thanks for the read, WR304.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

lassiar said:


> this site is good for ... information.
> 
> Thanks for the read, WR304.


You're welcome.

My posts on this forum aim to be informative and helpful as much as possible. That's all I'm trying to do, although admittedly they may end up being a little short of jokes as a result.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

I don't even know anybody who rides flat pedals just for _recreational _riding (caveat: I'm not interested in the gravity scene) let alone XC racing.

If a person feels better on flats than cleats that's fine, do what you want, but personally I couldn't imagine choosing flats over being clipped in.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

Engineering cycling prosthetics


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

I can't believe this is even a debate. Go clipless. Start out on manageble terrain. You will do fine..


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## taj13 (Feb 16, 2010)

electrik said:


> Yeah Chip, it is, dabbing a foot or dragging a foot through a corner is a great way to over-take a competitor on clips in a corner who is not going to be going to the limit. You can almost always corner better this way and corner better on bumpy ground where a clipless rider might nancy around the bumps. Better cornering gives you much more opportunity to over-take.


Can you please show us proof, study or what have you, that shows cornering with flats is faster than going clipless? Inquiring minds want to know.


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

taj13 said:


> Can you please show us proof, study or what have you, that shows cornering with flats is faster than going clipless? Inquiring minds want to know.


Agreed. I want proof. I want proof that I "Nancy " through corners. How come I don't have dudes on flats passing me on course? I want proof that I steered my wife wrong as I introduced her to riding bikes and have helped train her to the highest level of this sport. I put her on clipless from day one. She only rides flats for dh racing and some skills sessions.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

taj13 said:


> Can you please show us proof, study or what have you, that shows cornering with flats is faster than going clipless? Inquiring minds want to know.


Simple physics, sticking a 3rd leg out or dragging a foot can help you balance through a corner and seperate yourself from the bicycle. Clipless XC riders rarely remove their feet from the pedals for corners. A lot of them are dead sailors in the corners, if you know what i mean.

One more thing and i shouldn't have to repeat myself - I am really only dubious of the claims of clipless as clearly superior... i'm not trying to "prove" anything, i want proof that clipless can make you a winner through some magically property. Like, if i stuck magnets in my flat shoes.... would i suddenly gain the potential to win some races? :skep:


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

whybotherme said:


> Agreed. I want proof. I want proof that I "Nancy " through corners. How come I don't have dudes on flats passing me on course? I want proof that I steered my wife wrong as I introduced her to riding bikes and have helped train her to the highest level of this sport. I put her on clipless from day one. She only rides flats for dh racing and some skills sessions.


You just answered your own question... maybe you're right or not, but you don't know your *** from a hole in the ground at this point. There was no justification for you to force her to wear clips.


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

electrik said:


> You just answered your own question... maybe you're right or not, but you don't know your *** from a hole in the ground at this point. There was no justification for you to force her to wear clips.


Haha! I love when a troll falls out of the passive aggressive front and starts throwing insults. Beautifully played. Thanks for the entertainment.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

whybotherme said:


> Haha! I love when a troll falls out of the passive aggressive front and starts throwing insults. Beautifully played. Thanks for the entertainment.


Your mistake confusing passive aggressive for me trying to keep it civil. You are calling me names again, so i don't think there can be much for you to say in defense of your own argument. :yesnod:

I want to know - what you have contributed to this thread aside from name calling?


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> Simple physics, sticking a 3rd leg out or dragging a foot can help you balance through a corner and seperate yourself from the bicycle. Clipless XC riders rarely remove their feet from the pedals for corners. A lot of them are dead sailors in the corners, if you know what i mean.


When it comes to cornering that's one reason why flat pedals may be quicker in some areas. By sticking your inside leg out it's possible to transfer more of your body weight, which you use as moveable ballast when cornering. Additional weight further forwards on the front wheel can help it dig in increasing cornering speed. You can do this with clipless pedals too, but then you have the problem of trying to find your pedal and clip in again whilst trying to accelerate away from the corner. With a flat pedal you can simply put your foot back on the pedal and start pedalling.

One reason that some riders may prefer this technique, and be faster when cornering as a result, is because its use is widespread in motocross. If that's how you're used to riding a motocross bike then it will be natural to keep using the same technique on your mountain bike too.

Here's Sam Hill riding a motocross bike:






There's more than one way to corner of course, each with its own advantages and disadvantages. If you watch the body weight shifts that Steve Peat makes in this Youtube video you can see how his cornering style is adapted to keeping both feet on the pedals.






Pictured below: Increased weight transfer through sticking the inside leg out on a motocross bike. The technique is widely used in motocross and can also be applied on a mountain bike.

Sam Hill cornering on a mountain bike using the same technique.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> You just answered your own question... maybe you're right or not, but you don't know your *** from a hole in the ground at this point. There was no justification for you to force her to wear clips.


I freaking LOVE the internet.

Where else would you see some nobody occasional racer (who admits he lacks the skills to feel safe while riding clipless pedals himself) obnoxiously lecturing the husband/coach of a world-class XC racer on as BASIC and UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED a topic as whether or not to use clipless pedals?

What makes you think anyone is "forced" to ride anything? She wasn't "forced" into clipless any more than she was "forced" into using a saddle, or grips, or a geared drivetrain.

Electrik, you have neither the experience, the talent, the engine, or the skills to be advising anyone on this, much less whybotherme. It's not an insult, it's simply a fact.

If you disagree with the above, please post a race resume. Put your money where your mouth is. Show us how your superior platform pedal cornering abilities have benefitted you directly in XC racing. Hell, show some XC race results for ANYONE using platforms at Cat 2 or above.

Put up or shut up.


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## taj13 (Feb 16, 2010)

electrik said:


> Simple physics, sticking a 3rd leg out or dragging a foot can help you balance through a corner and seperate yourself from the bicycle. Clipless XC riders rarely remove their feet from the pedals for corners. A lot of them are dead sailors in the corners, if you know what i mean.
> 
> I don't buy the simple physics part. It true it should/would apply to all forms of cycling. Sounds like an opinion, having no basis of fact.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> I freaking LOVE the internet.
> 
> Where else would you see some nobody occasional racer (who admits he lacks the skills to feel safe while riding clipless pedals himself) obnoxiously lecturing the husband/coach of a world-class XC racer on as BASIC and UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED a topic as whether or not to use clipless pedals?
> 
> ...


+1 Do your research muchacho.


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## rubystreet (Dec 8, 2007)

good grief, of course the guy in the motocross photo has his foot up, his footpeg is down in a rut that would of ripped half his leg off if he stayed on the pegs( but note that he's not dragging it to turn, just keeping it out of harm's way). 

And Sam Hill's shot is a nice photo op, the inside of the curve is nice and smooth and visible, just like every damn picture you will ever see of a guy dragging his feet. It's usually a bermed corner with smooth open soil on the inside, no rocks, roots or grass to hide a stump.

Now look at steve peat (sick video by the way) on real world trails. Is that his personal style or just that there's no way in hell anyone is putting a foot into the grass, roots or babyhead rocks of a real mountain singletrack except a last ditch effort to save a crash. Do people really put their feet down unless they can see that there's nothing there to hurt them? 

But we're still talking xc racing on an xc course, where people are recovering with a pegged heartrate, and even though you can put good gaps on less skilled riders, the risktaking of blowing your race also weighs in, especially after climbing at racepace. 

Could some foot draggin' wildman with a gravity dropper and a six inch bike pass me on a singletrack, maybe, maybe not, but he would of been chewed up and spit out the back before getting the chance.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

electrik said:


> Yeah Chip, it is, dabbing a foot or dragging a foot through a corner is a great way to over-take a competitor on clips in a corner who is not going to be going to the limit. You can almost always corner better this way and corner better on bumpy ground where a clipless rider might nancy around the bumps. Better cornering gives you much more opportunity to over-take.


If your "XC race" is composed of a thousand "corners", then by all means use platforms. The rest of us will continue to use clipless pedals on the more "traditional" XC courses in the world..

Do you know what an XC race course even consists of?

I think you are mistaking dual slalom for XC. That must be it.

Heck, I even see BMX racers using clipless today...hmm..


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

taj13 said:


> electrik said:
> 
> 
> > Simple physics, sticking a 3rd leg out or dragging a foot can help you balance through a corner and seperate yourself from the bicycle. Clipless XC riders rarely remove their feet from the pedals for corners. A lot of them are dead sailors in the corners, if you know what i mean.
> ...


That is because you don't realize that by leaning the bicycle a bit more than your body or moving a foot outwards or rotating a foot you can make yourself more stable.

Have you ever watched a man walk a tight-rope? Does he stick his hands at his side or does he use a long pole to keep his balance? Your centre of mass changes depending on how you arrange yourself.

This is not an opinion my man... clipless guys can do it too, but they don't because they're in a little XC box .


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> If your "XC race" is composed of a thousand "corners", then by all means use platforms. The rest of us will continue to use clipless pedals on the more "traditional" XC courses in the world..
> 
> Do you know what an XC race course even consists of?
> 
> ...


Haha, yes i know what an XC race looks like! Though maybe not what an XC racer looks like... :lol:


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> I freaking LOVE the internet.
> 
> Where else would you see some nobody occasional racer (who admits he lacks the skills to feel safe while riding clipless pedals himself) obnoxiously lecturing the husband/coach of a world-class XC racer on as BASIC and UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED a topic as whether or not to use clipless pedals?
> 
> ...


Why don't you put up some evidence about those claims you made about clipess superiority or better yet maybe you can shutup, take your tight purple pants, know-it-all attitude and go do your own study instead of trying to pass off your "expertise" as fact.


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## taj13 (Feb 16, 2010)

electrik said:


> That is because you don't realize that by leaning the bicycle a bit more than your body or moving a foot outwards or rotating a foot you can make yourself more stable.
> 
> Have you ever watched a man walk a tight-rope? Does he stick his hands at his side or does he use a long pole to keep his balance? Your centre of mass changes depending on how you arrange yourself.
> 
> This is not an opinion my man... clipless guys can do it too, but they don't because they're in a little XC box .


That's a poor comparison at best, your comparing objects that are basically at rest to objects going at speed. Also, I've raced dirt bikes, and ridden on road courses (motorcycles), so I do know some.

My point about proof is that if others in this thread are being asked to provide proof that clipless is faster than flats in a XC race, which is ludicrous IMO, why shouldn't you be held to the same standards? At this point you've yet to provide a real proof that flats are faster through corners.


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## chiplikestoridehisbike (Aug 8, 2007)

http://www.yeticycles.com/#/video/archive_race_footage/2008WC7Schladming/

Apparently world cup down hillers don't understand that "You can almost always corner better this way and corner better on bumpy ground"

But obviously Elec has it all figured out and everyone else has it wrong. Pro XC racers do not realize they are holding them selves back with clipless pedals and pro downhillers are obviously holding back in the turns by not always dragging a leg.

Elec, you should really start coaching a race team as you have a knowledge base that should propel your riders to the top.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> Why don't you put up some evidence about those claims you made about clipess superiority or better yet maybe you can shutup, take your tight purple pants, know-it-all attitude and go do your own study instead of trying to pass off your "expertise" as fact.


I don't have to put up evidence. You are the one railing against universally accepted practices. You are the one trying to "enlighten" everyone and open our small, closed minds.

If I do nothing, present no evidence... nothing changes, and I win. If you do the same... you lose. Seems the burden of proof is on you.

And if you don't want to be around people who wear "tight pants", you might want to try hanging out somewhere besides an XC racing forum.

You do know the UCI had to BAN skinsuits from World Cup DH racing, right? Because the pros WANTED to use them...


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

rubystreet said:


> good grief, of course the guy in the motocross photo has his foot up, his footpeg is down in a rut that would of ripped half his leg off if he stayed on the pegs( but note that he's not dragging it to turn, just keeping it out of harm's way).
> 
> And Sam Hill's shot is a nice photo op, the inside of the curve is nice and smooth and visible, just like every damn picture you will ever see of a guy dragging his feet. It's usually a bermed corner with smooth open soil on the inside, no rocks, roots or grass to hide a stump.
> 
> ...


The rider on the motocross bike in post #156 is Tim Ferry. I chose those two pictures largely because of the close similarity between the rider positions whilst cornering. The point I was trying to illustrate isn't about dragging the foot along the ground for propping the bike up. Moving the leg forwards whilst cornering is for balance rather than support.

Have a look at this discussion about the topic for example:

http://www.rzrd500.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5610&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

In a particular type of corner then this technique may be the most appropriate and perform better than others. It's easier to do with flat pedals than clipless pedals which is a reason why some riders may prefer flat pedals. If you watch motocross riders then they don't take every corner with their foot stuck out either. This video of Gee Atherton and David Knight (2010 World Enduro Champion) at Fort William shows that clearly. On the Fort William downhill course David Knight hardly ever takes his feet off the footpegs.






The majority of time in a mountain bike cross country race is made and lost in the pedalling sections. Even if you're blisteringly fast through a few corners it won't make up for time lost elsewhere. It didn't seem worth repeating again.

*_Tom_* set it out well in post #128: 
http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7747208&postcount=128

Here's another picture of Sam Hill cornering. You can see from this picture that he isn't using the foot to drag along the ground. It's so that he can adjust his bodyweight whilst cornering.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> I don't have to put up evidence. You are the one railing against universally accepted practices. You are the one trying to "enlighten" everyone and open our small, closed minds.
> 
> If I do nothing, present no evidence... nothing changes, and I win. If you do the same... you lose. Seems the burden of proof is on you.
> 
> ...


*Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's superior *- got it? That is like saying justin beiber is superior because he is popular... Clipless is for sure not "universal" Jesus.

Yeah, you don't win anything. Maybe that is your issue, you think somebody is going to win... The burden of proof is definitely not on me, I made no claim that clipless was so clearly superior. So, sorry, you're going to have to defend your claims or give them up.

BTW, I don't care if you want to wear your golden sausage suit, just don't go on preaching about how your opinion is therefore actual solid gold because of it...


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

WR304 said:


> Here's another picture of Sam Hill cornering. You can see from this picture that he isn't using the foot to drag along the ground. It's so that he can adjust his bodyweight whilst cornering.


That's the danger of using Google images. That picture was just before he fell off. I've left it because it was a good picture:eekster:

Here's the video of the full run. It's not very good quality but you can see how fast he's going. Watch out for the commentators comment 1:45 into the video.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> *Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's superior *- got it? That is like saying justin beiber is superior because he is popular... Clipless is for sure not "universal" Jesus.
> 
> Yeah, you don't win anything. Maybe that is your issue, you think somebody is going to win... The burden of proof is definitely not on me, I made no claim that clipless was so clearly superior. So, sorry, you're going to have to defend your claims or give them up.
> 
> BTW, I don't care if you want to wear your golden sausage suit, just don't go on preaching about how your opinion is therefore actual solid gold because of it...


So nobody wins... because you certainly haven't convinced anyone either.

You go back to your flats, and we will all go back to our clipless pedals. Done.


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## rubystreet (Dec 8, 2007)

ok WR304, I'm with ya, and another good video too. Electrik's stubborness is beyond reasoning even if every xc racer in the free world were to post here. I'll be done with this thread now, good luck!


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## rubystreet (Dec 8, 2007)

doh, that Hill video is the best one yet, I'm sure you've seen the one of Peaty's winning run with those same commentators going ballistic... classic.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> So nobody wins... because you certianly haven't convinced anyone either.
> 
> You go back to your flats, and we will all go back to our clipless pedals. Done.


Thats fine, I realize I probably won't convince anybody to switch it up... that's not my goal speaking here anyways, i just wanted room for a little doubt that it's about the pedals.

Just FYI, I ride clips offroad when i find it suits me, decades before that i rode in toe-clips cinched so tight your foot wouldn't ever come out. So, you see I'm not an all x type of pedal, everyday type of guy.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

rubystreet said:


> ok WR304, I'm with ya, and another good video too. Electrik's stubborness is beyond reasoning even if every xc racer in the free world were to post here. I'll be done with this thread now, good luck!


When coach says ride clipless i did, but that's more about doing something for the "team" than myself. You make yourself a liability for reasons other than poor performance, every failure would be worse because automatically people will assume it's the flats. The nail that sticks out gets hammered.

So, yes, Rubystreet, i'm too stubborn to be convinced only by the argument of somebody telling me that 99% of people are doing this so what is wrong with you?

Frankly, I never "saw the light".


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

electrik said:


> When coach says ride clipless i did, but that's more about doing something for the "team" than myself. You make yourself a liability for reasons other than poor performance, every failure would be worse because automatically people will assume it's the flats. The nail that sticks out gets hammered.
> 
> So, yes, Rubystreet, i'm too stubborn to be convinced only by the argument of somebody telling me that 99% of people are doing this so what is wrong with you?
> 
> Frankly, I never "saw the light".


While you are at it, go on over to RBR and tell the roadies to use platforms because they all must be idjuts too. I am sure they would benefit from your cornering advice quite a bit also.

All the top XC mtb pros worldwide use clipless pedals just because it is trendy. They don't care about performance or winning at all. They just want to look cool with clipless pedals.

Also, clearly clipless pedals are just a fad. I mean, they have only been the pedal of choice for everyone who cares about winning XC races for 2 decades.

We really think you are on to something. Amazing stuph..


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> I'm (un)convinced ... by the argument of somebody telling me that 99% of people are doing this so what is wrong with you?


I agree that simply replying "because everybody uses them" isn't really a good enough answer. It's always worth asking "why"? 

Some cross country mountain bike examples where the answer "because everybody uses them" has changed dramatically over time would be 29er wheels, stem length/ frame geometry, disc brakes, full suspension and wide riser bars.

If you were to travel back to the mid-late 1990s, and turn up at a mountain bike cross country race on your 29er full suspension bike with its 630mm wide riser bar and disc brakes, you'd have got at the very least odd looks from everyone else on their 26" wheel hardtails with flat bars and v-brakes. Actually, you may not even have been allowed to start. 29er wheels weren't fully legal for mountain bike cross country racing until 2003.

http://www.mbaction.com/ME2/dirmod....0&tier=3&nid=EBDC50C997C84A3DB6BD8685106EC293

Historic mountain bikes
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64522&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

It's certainly worth questioning whether there's any evidence or specific reasons why flat pedals aren't better than clipless pedals for mountain bike cross country racing. It's not that easy to find any studies to make the case. The ones I linked in post #64 can be used selectively either way.

My interpretation of those studies would be that if you're not pedalling very hard then it doesn't appear there's a great deal of difference between flat and clipless pedals. The clipless pedals don't offer much, if any performance benefit at lower intensities. If you're trying hard however, such as in a mountain bike cross country race, then clipless pedals offer a distinct power advantage

My reasons for arguing that clipless pedals would be better than flat pedals for a mountain bike cross country race are these:

1) That the clipless pedal offers a measurable power advantage when pedalling hard:

*The effect of clip-less pedals on mechanical characteristics measured during sprinting on a non-isokinetic cycle ergometer *

Conclusions.
This improvement of maximal power could be attributed to a significant increase in optimal velocity, which was observed for both considerable and minimal friction force. In fact, clipless pedals allowed a greater muscular activity, a greater efficiency index, and better muscular coordination." *F. Hintzy, A. Belli, F. Grappe and J.D. Rouillon*

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0765-1597(99)80055-0

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7734735&postcount=64

2) The amount of friction (grip) between flat pedals and shoes will be reduced in wet and muddy conditions, potentially making it harder to pedal and increasing the likelihood that your feet could slip off the pedals. Pedalling with clipless pedals is unaffected by wet and muddy conditions (so long as the cleats are able to clip into the pedal.)

3) The optimum design of a shoe sole designed for use with a flat pedal isn't ideal for walking in mud, due to the need for it to be smooth to maximise the shoe / pedal contact area. The sole of a clipless MTB cycling shoe can be designed so that it has a spikier tread, often with toe studs so that it provides more walking grip in mud.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7740547&postcount=89

4) Power oscillations during the pedalling stroke should be reduced with clipless pedals. Flat pedals require constant downwards pressure in order to stop them coming off the pedal. You may not pull up with clipless pedals but you can unweight the pedal to a greater extent than with flats. You can also possibly produce more power at the top and bottom of the pedal stroke. You're also wasting less energy (possibly producing more power) because the downstroke doesn't have as much downwards force from the opposing leg working against it. This really comes back to the study I quoted for Point 1. These differences in power output will be clearly visible if you have the measuring equipment available to view and analyse it.

The implications of this are that a smoother, more consistent power delivery with clipless pedals will improve rear wheel traction when pedalling in slippery conditions.

This effect can probably be reduced by extended practice with flat pedals to optimise your pedalling style.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7743217&postcount=106

5) If you snap a pedal axle or break a crank you can still continue pedalling one legged using clipless pedals. In a stage race such as the Cape Epic or a long endurance race this could be an important factor, allowing you to finish. With flat pedals you'd have to coast or push the bike instead. (In a short race you'd probably just DNF either way).

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7745840&postcount=123

Pictured below: Why "because everybody uses them" isn't always the best answer. Ask the same question 10 years apart and you would have received two very different answers.

Paola Pezzo winning the 2000 Olympics. Her Gary Fisher bike features 26" wheels, narrow flat bars and v-brakes.

Willow Koerber at the 2010 World Championships. Her Gary Fisher bike features 29" wheels, 630mm wide riser bars and disc brakes.


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> While you are at it, go on over to RBR and tell the roadies to use platforms because they all must be idjuts too. I am sure they would benefit from your cornering advice quite a bit also.
> 
> All the top XC mtb pros worldwide use clipless pedals just because it is trendy. They don't care about performance or winning at all. They just want to look cool with clipless pedals.
> 
> ...


"Proof" is a difficult thing. It is the source of most, probably all, of the common internet unwinable debates. To make a declarative statement, "clipless are better than flats", is close to unprovable. There are just too many variables. On the other hand ... The vast majority, near 100%, of experience says that clipless are better for xcountry racing. Even BMX are clipless if they want to compete at the highest level. Refuse the dabate. It isn't fashion, as it is concerned with the primary force connection to a bike ... it is not a haircut, shave, or even lycra. Refuse the argument. Leave it to him to convince a serious racer to go with flats, so he has to prove something against the vast majority of experience.


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## mojo28246 (Aug 8, 2007)

Elec, you are in the wrong forum like someone said. This is xc racing forum. XC racing is almost like road racing. XC course is not technical there's very few noteworthy corners. There's no need to maximize or maintain the high speed in the corner a few seconds would be neutralized on the next climb.

XC racing is about fitness not skills. Shuttle XC racers with other discipline racers at the top or any course, I'm sure even with lighter bikes XC would not come in first.

I've been to Sea Otter, Downievielle, Fontana, ect. Most XC rider can't corner, they can climb though. Same corner done by Super D or DH guys shown big different. You are not going to convince or enlighten any XC racers to go flats. I ride SS 29er I'm using both clip in and flat, I can't tell you which is better, they are both good.

If this is a trail riding forum then I agree with you Flats provide maximum fun and learning. You can push yourself harder unfortunately, it's not the case. There are a few elitist posters here that just sickening but they are right there's no way anyone would switch.

BTW love the Sam Hills' run, that boy got skills.


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

> 4) Power oscillations during the pedalling stroke should be reduced with clipless pedals. Flat pedals require constant downwards pressure in order to stop them coming off the pedal. You may not pull up with clipless pedals but you can unweight the pedal to a greater extent than with flats. You can also possibly produce more power at the top and bottom of the pedal stroke. This really comes back to the study I quoted for Point 1.


The assertion that people (even seasoned veterans) do not pull up is what makes me pause. But, when I concentrate on form and pulling back and up, I end up with fatigued and sore hamstrings, hop flexors, and front of my shins. There is work being done there. Even though it is vastly over shadowed by the main downward stroke, even a 1% increase efficiency or power is significant for an endurance event over hours of effort.


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

mojo28246 said:


> Elec, you are in the wrong forum like someone said. This is xc racing forum. XC racing is almost like road racing. XC course is not technical there's very few noteworthy corners. There's no need to maximize or maintain the high speed in the corner a few seconds would be neutralized on the next climb.
> 
> XC racing is about fitness not skills. Shuttle XC racers with other discipline racers at the top or any course, I'm sure even with lighter bikes XC would not come in first.
> 
> ...


you are right that almost no XC race is won on the descent (or corners for that matter). where you are wrong is in stating that XC racers are lacking in skill. sure there are some that lack skill, but to be at the top level in the sport you have to have a full package of climbing and descending. if you lose much time on descents you are likely not on the top couple steps of the podium in CAT1 or Elite.

as i stated earlier, quite a few top level XC racers have DH racing backgrounds. one of the most dominant XC racers that I face was a Pro DH guy in the "glory days". he is also state champion in CX... dude is a rocket on any type of bike really.

i race some guys that have bigger motors than me and aren't as skilled descending. in CX races they destroy me. in an XC race, not so much. in a road race i would get my ass handed to me.

my wife has spent some time this year working on her descending as it is one place to save time on course for "free".

one reason that flats would totally suck for longer races is that there is no float available. you have to interrupt your pedal stroke to re-position your foot on the pedal. this means lost time. float is a good thing for your joints (knee and hip). in a DH race who cares, even on a "pedaler's course" like Sea Otter DH you don't spend more than a couple minutes pedaling. big difference when it comes to pedaling for almost 2 hrs.

electrik... you are the only one that has done any insulting between the two of us. i am onto your game though, it's all cool. it is entertaining, like watching clowns! :thumbsup:


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> The assertion that people (even seasoned veterans) do not pull up is what makes me pause. But, when I concentrate on form and pulling back and up, I end up with fatigued and sore hamstrings, hop flexors, and front of my shins. There is work being done there. Even though it is vastly over shadowed by the main downward stroke, even a 1% increase efficiency or power is significant for an endurance event over hours of effort.


The whole pedalling push and pull debate is even more "unwinnable" than the clipless vs flat pedals debate. This cycling forums.com thread on the subject of pedalling push and pull has managed to run for seven years, reaching 179 pages and 2,689 posts (at the time of writing), with no end in sight.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/forum/thread/233514/pedaling-push-up-push-down

That section is just a very short summary of my original post:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7743217&postcount=106

It's based on the text and diagrams from this book.

*High Tech Cycling edited by Edmund R. Burke - Chapter 5 Cycling Biomechanics: Road and Mountain by Jeffrey P Broker*

http://www.amazon.co.uk/High-Tech-C...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280444331&sr=1-1

If you look at the diagram originally posted by *Berkeley Mike* it shows the muscle groups activated at different parts of the pedalling stroke. You can pull up to some extent on the upstroke with clipless pedals using the hamstrings. My Point 5) of being able to ride home one legged with clipless pedals demonstrates that. Whether you unweight the pedal, produce meaningful power, or are just wasting effort by doing so is the question.

The exciting thing is that a lot of these debates can be answered fairly comprehensively in future for particular riders. As more advanced power meters become available at affordable prices you'll be able to look at the data downloaded after a ride and understand at a glance just how effectively you were pedalling. This article about the Beru F1 Factor001 bike's telemetry is an indication of what will be available in future for everyday use (maybe the distant future for the affordable versions). These devices already exist if you're prepared to pay for them.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/tech-feature-beru-f1systems-factor001-29098#

_The familiar measures of cycling performance such as speed, cadence and power are still central to the Factor001's data acquisition. Eight tiny magnets embedded in the rims of the unique wheels log position eight times per rotation so that previously undetectable fluctuations in speed can be detected. Cadence and power are both measured with startling precision by the painstakingly CNC-machined Factor001 cranks.

By measuring the deformation of each aluminium crank arm using carefully positioned strain gauges, BERU claim to measure pedalling forces with just 0.1 percent error, while pedal position is recorded every one degree of rotation
...
Roberts looked at the data from our best out-of-the-saddle sprint effort, taken just minutes earlier, and was able to give startling analysis. "Each downstroke increases speed by around 2kph but once the downstroke ends your speed actually decreases by 1kph. You're literally taking two steps forward and one back," he said, referring to only one of many measures of our ride on display.

To demonstrate that poor pedalling technique was to blame for our stuttering progress, Roberts told us: "If you compare a graph of your power output around the pedal stroke to your speed, you can see the deceleration begins just as the useful power drops off. You're just wasting your effort in that phase." The precision of BERU's analysis is humbling but for any pro hoping to beat Mark Cavendish to the line next season, the fine tuning of technique the Factor001 provides might just give them the edge they need._ *Bikeradar.com*

The Brim Brothers power meter offers similar features.

http://www.brimbrothers.com/2011/02/blowing-our-own-trumpet

Pictured below: Muscle activation at different parts of the pedal stroke.

Wasted power takes up energy but doesn't increase crank torque.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> I agree that simply replying "because everybody uses them" isn't really a good enough answer. It's always worth asking "why"?
> 
> Some cross country mountain bike examples where the answer "because everybody uses them" has changed dramatically over time would be 29er wheels, stem length/ frame geometry, disc brakes, full suspension and wide riser bars.
> 
> ...


Your link to 1) is broken again. I think this study is biased since it seems they failed to isolate elite clipless riders only and/or identified/tested no subjects whom had spent most of their time on flats. Further, let me say, i think you left out the conclusions of another study you posted - Mechanical efficiency was apparently not improved by clipless.



> Eight elite cyclists (C) and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev . min (-1) and 60 % of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke.
> 
> There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (*86 % for C and 57 % NC*, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, *NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively*.
> 
> Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency.


Though the study says pedalling effectivness was increased it doesn't say anthing about the net result. All things the same, will the pedals let you go faster? Of course many are sure that the more you are pushing and pulling (trying to pedal in little circles) the more effective you are being at pedaling, but you must pull-up hard enough to overcome a 9% loss in net mechanical efficiency. In fact by focusing on circles you may be compromising the power-phase of your pedal stroke.

2) studs and sticky flat soles have done a lot for platforms, under the same conditions i have had issues with spd's clogging with dirt and ice where flats didn't clog.

3) Walking in the mud isn't good in most shoes, but i will cede that some mtb shoes and toe-studs help a bit in the mud, but i will add that carbon fiber soled clipless shoes with hard plastic lugs are as slippery as snot on rocks and roots.

4) Picking the correct gear to spin in probably has a lot more to do with losing traction in slop than pedals. Oscillations aren't inherently inefficient, particularly when the power is getting to the ground. I have no evidence for this but, I think clipless do give a slight advantage in the slop pedaling wise, particularly when the rear wheel is already spinning out, i will use clipless under such conditions as heavy snow(i try to avoid riding in mud a lot due to trail issues). Clipless can present another difficulty under that situation also - falling over at low speeds and starting up in the slop.

5) Well, a dnf is a dnf... It is true i have seen one person limp to the finish line with one pedal only...

I would pick paulo over willow anyday! :thumbsup:


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

whybotherme said:


> ...
> 
> one reason that flats would totally suck for longer races is that there is no float available. you have to interrupt your pedal stroke to re-position your foot on the pedal. this means lost time. float is a good thing for your joints (knee and hip). in a DH race who cares, even on a "pedaler's course" like Sea Otter DH you don't spend more than a couple minutes pedaling. big difference when it comes to pedaling for almost 2 hrs.
> 
> electrik... you are the only one that has done any insulting between the two of us. i am onto your game though, it's all cool. it is entertaining, like watching clowns! :thumbsup:


What all this about float and not being able to pedal without it... you do realize just how much float road clipless shoes have?

An yeah, so when you called me a troll a while back there... you were just kidding around huh?

You're probably right about one thing, it's not the shoes.


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## mojo28246 (Aug 8, 2007)

whybotherme said:


> you are right that almost no XC race is won on the descent (or corners for that matter). where you are wrong is in stating that XC racers are lacking in skill. sure there are some that lack skill, but to be at the top level in the sport you have to have a full package of climbing and descending. if you lose much time on descents you are likely not on the top couple steps of the podium in CAT1 or Elite.
> 
> as i stated earlier, quite a few top level XC racers have DH racing backgrounds. one of the most dominant XC racers that I face was a Pro DH guy in the "glory days". he is also state champion in CX... dude is a rocket on any type of bike really.
> 
> ...


I agree with most if not all of what you said. Lee McCormick said in his book you push on flat during practice, and bring it all together with clip in. I realized that a lot of top XC guys are from DH, it shows on the bike handling skills.

In general, other discipline can do better on the descend than XC because they practice, as you stated your wife put aside time to training those necessary skills to maintain at the top level, congrats btw. Keep up the good work.

Too many XC racers not top cat of course, look like they are not comfortable on the descend, some got out and run on the first technical sections, locking rear brake every chance they get. At Fontana the difference is big enough when I watch the Super D riders and XC riders through the twisty sections, I'm sure it's not the bike because all the front runners were flying, the second wave riders already look slow.

Most pathetic of all were the top athletes from around the world at the 2008 Olympic I've never seen such a poor bike handling skills at the elite level:skep:

Top pros can use flats and start handing a$$es to other categories so I don't think it's the pedal, but more fitness and skills. But to compete at the highest level clip in is just better, no doubt. I have an open mind I try both and like both. Riding SS I can appreciate what I can learn from both. There's time and place for each type of pedal, but other than XC racing I don't see how clip in would "Rock", Rule" like some said.

Cheering top riders at the event was such joy they really wow you with their skills. It makes waiting all day worth it to see top rider showing off their skills not just fitness. SS guys really work on their skills to better preserve momentum, I dig watching the race a lot.


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

electrik said:


> What all this about float and not being able to pedal without it... you do realize just how much float road clipless shoes have?


i don't own road shoes or pedals. i don't race road. this isn't a road forum. nice distraction though...



electrik said:


> An yeah, so when you called me a troll a while back there... you were just kidding around huh?


i did, after you fell out of character and said "you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground." insults usually follow after the troll fails to get a rise from people with the passive aggressive tact, like when you twisted my second post.

i call 'em like i see 'em. :thumbsup: keep up the entertainment.  i actually chuckled today on my ride on a corner on one of the descents... i thought, "i bet that dude on mtbr would have dragged a foot through this corner." that was when i dropped two gears and pulled the front wheel off the ground and sprinted out of the corner.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

whybotherme said:


> i don't own road shoes or pedals. i don't race road. this isn't a road forum. nice distraction though...
> 
> i did, after you fell out of character and said "you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground." insults usually follow after the troll fails to get a rise from people with the passive aggressive tact, like when you twisted my second post.
> 
> i call 'em like i see 'em. :thumbsup: keep up the entertainment.  i actually chuckled today on my ride on a corner on one of the descents... i thought, "i bet that dude on mtbr would have dragged a foot through this corner." that was when i dropped two gears and pulled the front wheel off the ground and sprinted out of the corner.


Oh, sorry... double checking now, i actually confused you with _tom_ who was repeatedly calling me a troll trying to get a rise so i just assumed you were trying to beg the question about making your girlfriend ride clips.

Yeah, road clips are relevant in this case regarding float. You wrote it was impossibly uncomfortable to pedal upwards of 2hrs without float... apparently you forgot road racers in fact do so for much longer.

Congrats on being super awesome :thumbsup: You can blast out of corners on flats also though.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

*Electrik..*

Road pedals often have plenty of float. I am not sure that you are clear on "clips" vs. "clipless", as you interchange the two at times.

"Clipless" are like ski bindings. They are "clipless", as they lack the old school toe-clips.

Many people did/do develop knee problems w/o float, hence the popularity of "clipless" pedals such as Speedplay that offer a ton of float for roadies.

The problem is even worse without float in mtb riding/racing, as you are often leading with your knee thru tight turns placing unnecessary stress/twist on your knee. This is even more evident with mtb'ers than roadies who make less tight turns typically during a race/ride.

Float is a good thing.

I think you DID make some valid points about platforms. Here is how I see it though IMO..

20-ish mile XC race:
A. Use platforms and save 14 seconds from cornering faster etc...
B. Use clipless and save 3 minutes on your race time....

MOST will go with option B.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> Road pedals often have plenty of float. I am not sure that you are clear on "clips" vs. "clipless", as you interchange the two at times.
> 
> "Clipless" are like ski bindings. They are "clipless", as they lack the old school toe-clips.
> 
> ...


Yes, but iirc different road cleats, do limit the float or even fix it. Nothing like the generous float from crank brothers or times.

I'm not against float, but the idea you'll die after 2hrs is for sure not accurate and neither is the concept that there is somehow zero float when using platforms.

I'm not sure you will make 3 minutes over 20 miles from your shoes alone... it has been hard to find any evidence to even sketch a number like that, from what i've read some people's mechanical efficiency and muscular activity drops when using clips - perhaps due to the notion of having to pedaling in perfect circles with clips... just an idea.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

rydbyk said:


> Road pedals often have plenty of float. I am not sure that you are clear on "clips" vs. "clipless", as you interchange the two at times.
> 
> "Clipless" are like ski bindings. They are "clipless", as they lack the old school toe-clips.
> 
> ...


I don't know if flats is a good choice for road racing you don't really have the ground clearance. I don't like too much float that's why I ditched my BeBob. High tension XTR is great for racing for me.

I have different result on my racing time. Last year I raced XC with CL I had fun, this year('10) I race the same course about 20min faster with flats. Many variable in play but that's my basic number. One major was I was not struck behind 2 traffic first singletrack bottle neck, and the first tech descend where bunch of guys try to figured out how to ride a bike.:thumbsup: It's all good we were out there joking and had a good time.


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

mojo28246 said:


> Most pathetic of all were the top athletes from around the world at the 2008 Olympic I've never seen such a poor bike handling skills at the elite level:skep:


this is something that surprised me at Worlds @ MSA.

i was able to practice the course for a lap with the wife (before the rain hit) and was blown away by the people that couldn't ride one DH section with some loose dirt/dust. the Chinese girls were scattered all over the place like orange confetti! i had never seen that section before and didn't have an issue.

note: i assume(d) most of these people had ridden the course before (previous world cups) where as we were seeing it for the first time.

much to their credit they kicked major butt in the actual race. i guess they got their issues worked out in practice (good on them for sure!)

just so i am not seen as biased, it wasn't a great race for the wife either. the experience was out of this world though!!!!


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## lassiar (Nov 11, 2010)

tommyrod74 said:


> I freaking LOVE the internet.
> 
> Where else would you see some nobody occasional racer (who admits he lacks the skills to feel safe while riding clipless pedals himself) obnoxiously lecturing the husband/coach of a world-class XC racer on as BASIC and UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED a topic as whether or not to use clipless pedals?
> 
> ...


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## mudforlunch (Aug 9, 2004)

tommyrod74 said:


> I freaking LOVE the internet.
> 
> Where else would you see some nobody occasional racer (who admits he lacks the skills to feel safe while riding clipless pedals himself) obnoxiously lecturing the husband/coach of a world-class XC racer on as BASIC and UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED a topic as whether or not to use clipless pedals?
> 
> ...


Division: Sport (Cat 2) Senior 2 Men 30-34 
Place Name Team Name Bib Laps Total Start Lap 1 Lap 2 
1 MIKE BARBONE BIKE LINE 148 2 1:25:35 13:02:00 1:04:11 0:21:24 
2 MIKE PATTON TRESTLE BRIDGE RACING 347 2 1:27:37 13:02:00 1:05:36 0:22:01 
3 William Neide 345 2 1:29:40 13:02:00 1:07:25 0:22:15 
4 JASON ZERBE SPOKES BIKE SHOP 578 2 1:29:59 13:02:00 1:07:19 0:22:40 
5 JEFF THOMAS TRESTLE BRIDGE RACING 509 2 1:30:22 13:02:00 1:07:13 0:23:09 
6 CEDRIC GUY KIKI 1684 2 1:30:24 13:02:00 1:07:07 0:23:17 
7 KRIS RHOADS JB MOUNTAIN BIKES 54 2 1:32:23 13:02:00 1:09:06 0:23:17 
8 John Hunter 1510 2 1:33:53 13:02:00 1:10:42 0:23:11 
9 Trevor Shattuck 1546 2 1:35:38 13:02:00 1:13:14 0:22:24 
10 DARREN PRICE JB MOUNTAIN BIKES 348 2 1:37:24 13:02:00 1:11:12 0:26:12 
11 Andy Martin 1148 2 1:38:51 13:02:00 1:15:43 0:23:08 
12 Don Steward 351 2 1:43:44 13:02:00 1:16:39 0:27:05 
13 BEN ROEWER BIKE LINE 350 2 1:43:49 13:02:00 1:19:12 0:24:37 
14 PATRICK BRENNAND 44 2 1:44:10 13:02:00 1:17:39 0:26:31 
15 Lenny Chai 1564 2 1:44:32 13:02:00 1:18:42 0:25:50 
16 EDDIE KALBACH JB MOUNTAIN BIKES 50 2 1:48:32 13:02:00 1:21:41 0:26:51 
17 JOE NUGENT 508 2 1:50:23 13:02:00 1:18:07 0:32:16 
18 MIKE BRIA WOODEN WHEELS RACING 336 2 2:02:58 13:02:00 1:30:25 0:32:33 
19 GERARD NUGENT 346 2 2:12:46 13:02:00 1:33:21 0:39:25 
20 Riolt Frazer 1567 2 2:15:31 13:02:00 1:41:29 0:34:02 
21 DAEHEE HAN SNU RIDERS 1685 2 2:25:18 13:02:00 1:19:35 1:05:43

4th mountain bike race I ever did in my life - I took 14th out of 21st on flats. Not good be any stretch, but consider this: all racers buit me were clipped in, and I outweighed every other racer on the starting line in my class by a good 20-30 pounds. I beat at least 7 of them.

Now of course, I place quite a bit better. And I race clipped in


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

mudforlunch said:


> Division: Sport (Cat 2) Senior 2 Men 30-34
> Place Name Team Name Bib Laps Total Start Lap 1 Lap 2
> 1 MIKE BARBONE BIKE LINE 148 2 1:25:35 13:02:00 1:04:11 0:21:24
> 2 MIKE PATTON TRESTLE BRIDGE RACING 347 2 1:27:37 13:02:00 1:05:36 0:22:01
> ...


Why did you move to clipless pedals?

Good finish for your 4th race, BTW.


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## mudforlunch (Aug 9, 2004)

I used to race BMX as a kid, and I always used flats to ride MTB as well. I was leery of clipless, but when I started racing I needed every bit of help I can get on the climbs, and with flats I always felt (as some of the data shown on this thread points out) like all the power is on the downstroke, and I was wasting energy, No big deal riding trails and having fun, but as a bigger rider starting to race, it was something I wanted to improve on. 

A year later and I prefer being clipped in pretty much all the time, even DH lift access stuff too.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> Your link to 1) is broken again. I think this study is biased since it seems they failed to isolate elite clipless riders only and/or identified/tested no subjects whom had spent most of their time on flats. Further, let me say, i think you left out the conclusions of another study you posted - Mechanical efficiency was apparently not improved by clipless.
> ...
> Though the study says pedalling effectivness was increased it doesn't say anthing about the net result. All things the same, will the pedals let you go faster? Of course many are sure that the more you are pushing and pulling (trying to pedal in little circles) the more effective you are being at pedaling, but you must pull-up hard enough to overcome a 9% loss in net mechanical efficiency. In fact by focusing on circles you may be compromising the power-phase of your pedal stroke.


Try this link. It appears to work consistently to the study extract. 

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0765-1597(99)80055-0

It's taken from this discussion where someone had more details about it, plus a picture of the results.

http://www.cyclebanter.com/showthread.php?t=218875&page=6

_"My inbox coughed up a copy of the 1999 French study of clipless (automatique) versus platform (standard) pedals.

The results are from four 8-second sprints on a trainer against 0.5 and 1.1 N.kg -1 resistance.

There were 20 riders, 19-31 years old, 9 international riders and 11 regional riders, 61 kg to 77 kg (134 to 169 pounds), average around 68 kg (150 pounds).

It's a nice set of specific numbers for the sprint effect of pulling up. For example, the maximum wattage was 685 watts (clipless pedals) versus only 629 watts (platform pedals) at the light resistance (8.9% more) and 923 watts (clipless pedals) versus 747 watts (platform pedals) at the heavier resistance (23.5% more)."_ *Carl Fogel*

The attached picture is a section of the study. It's in French but you can see the sprinting power output numbers clearly.

The other studies can be used either way. My interpretation of those studies would be that if you're not pedalling very hard then it doesn't appear there's a great deal of difference between flat and clipless pedals. The clipless pedals don't offer much, if any performance benefit at lower intensities. If you're trying hard however, such as in a mountain bike cross country race, then clipless pedals offer a distinct power advantage.

Pictured below: Comparison between power output of Clipless pedals (automatique) and platform (standard) pedals when sprinting.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> I would pick paulo over willow anyday! :thumbsup:


I made a typo in my earlier post. It's Paol*a* Pezzo.

This picture from the 1996 Olympics is a good one.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

WR304 said:


> _"My inbox coughed up a copy of the 1999 French study of clipless (automatique) versus platform (standard) pedals.
> ...
> The results are from four 8-second sprints on a trainer against 0.5 and 1.1 N.kg -1 resistance.
> ...
> the maximum wattage was 685 watts (clipless pedals) versus only 629 watts (platform pedals) at the light resistance (8.9% more) and 923 watts (clipless pedals) versus 747 watts (platform pedals) at the heavier resistance (23.5% more)."_ *Carl Fogel*


The significance of this when looking at mountain bike cross country racing is that the pattern of power output during a mountain bike race often involves lots of short sharp spikes of very high intensity. You can see this pattern in the recorded data from your power meter. If using clipless pedals can provide as much as 23.5% more power every time you make a hard effort, then they will provide you with an advantage over a rider who is using flat pedals. 

_*Dissecting Mountain Bike Power Demands* 
From the power data we can see that this 10 minute singletrack climb contained 6 different sections where it was necessary to produce more than 300 watts. These short burst like efforts lasted anywhere from 5 to 25 seconds (highlighted in purple below). Short bursty efforts like these occur repeatedly during mountain biking, close to a hundred times during a 2 hour cross-country race. I crossed checked a 2 hour mountain bike cross country race file and saw 88 such instances!

Mountain biking's bursty power is primarily a function of terrain. Rocks, roots, ruts, short steep climbs, switchbacks, obstacles and more all contribute to the highly variable power demands of mountain biking. It's essential to mountain bike racing to be able to produce these efforts in order to clear the technical terrain and maintain your speed up, over, and thru the terrain.

Conversely, you'll also notice that preceding most of these efforts are periods of zero wattage (highlighted in blue). This indicates that the terrain was fairly technical and I had to stop pedaling temporarily to clear a section of trail but then was back on "the gas". When I started pedaling again I went from 0 to 300 watts to keep the momentum going. It's these short burst efforts and the subsequent changes in wattage or cadence that truly distinguishes mountain bike racing from road racing._ *Jason Hilmire*

http://www.fascatcoaching.com/mtbpower.html

Pictured below: Jason Hilmire's analysis of MTB power output showing the short bursts of repeated high intensity up a singletrack climb.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*A little late...*

In post #156 I disagree with the interpretation of Sam Hill's use of the inside foot. He is getting it out of the way of the inside of the track which would otherwise come up and trap his leg if it were still on the pedal., something either type of pedal user might do. Further the position of the foot _may_ be adding to traction of the fronttire.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

whybotherme said:


> i don't own road shoes or pedals. i don't race road. this isn't a road forum.
> 
> that was when i dropped two gears and pulled the front wheel off the ground and sprinted out of the corner.


so you ride the rd in mtb shoes/pedals...THAT pretty much sums you up. oh and there you go again telling everyone how great you are, geez give it a rest already.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I ride road in mtb shoes and pedals*

I guess I am a real clown, too.
Anyhoo, I'm still waiting for pictures of guys on the XC Racing Podium who use flat pedals.

All the rest of this is just wind.


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## Combatcm (Nov 15, 2005)

This thread should be deleted and forgotten about.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

I feel very differently about discussions like this. Sure there is alot of effort that pulls things where they don't need to go but a lot of that is in support of or in defense of some really great content.

This discussion is about somethig essential; the pedal. Without the pedal we just have this:


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> In post #156 I disagree with the interpretation of Sam Hill's use of the inside foot. He is getting it out of the way of the inside of the track which would otherwise come up and trap his leg if it were still on the pedal., something either type of pedal user might do. Further the position of the foot _may_ be adding to traction of the fronttire.


It's always good to discuss points like this. Improved ground clearance is one reason but not the main reason for this technique. I tried to clarify that picture in post #168.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7761088&postcount=168

Some examples of weight transfer that most people are familiar with are shifting your weight backwards when braking and counter steering by leaning your body whilst turning.

When you move your weight around on the bike it's in order to act as ballast and counteract other forces. This movement is often done instinctively - you adjust your position without even thinking about it in order to balance and maximise tyre grip. You can see this body weight transfer in action when riding both bicycles and motorcycles.

Moving the inside leg forwards when cornering does the same thing. Along with the leg weight itself your centre of gravity moves forwards and down as you shift forwards on the saddle in response. This weight shift helps load up your front wheel and balance the bike. The most common time you'd do this is if the bike is drifting slightly.

_*Rear wheel drift*
"Load the front end to keep the front tire glued. Let the rear end do what it wants. There is some "opposite lock" - while your bike swings outward, your front wheel points where you want to go. It feels like you're steering opposite the turn, but you're steering into the turn; the rest of your bike is following a tangent. As Steve Peat told me, "As long as your front wheel is tracking, you're golden." He probably said Mate in there somewhere too.

The rear-wheel drift is actually secondary to keeping your front tire planted. You only have so much weight to press into your tires. The more you load your front tire, the lighter your rear tire, and the more likely it'll break loose."_ *Lee Likes Bikes.com*

http://www.leelikesbikes.com/drifting-rear-wheel-vs-two-wheel.html

Pictured below: Steve Peat uses his forwards leg and body weight to load the front wheel whilst the bike drifts sideways. Note that he's using clipless pedals. The technique isn't unique to flat pedals.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

I am going to start racing road with sandals and platforms. I will prove to everyone that road shoes/pedals are not necessary!! Wait...do I actually need proof with me on the podium? Uh oh..


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Great stuff, WR*

The pics really make a difference and you've made some great choices.

The other great thing to see, slightly off-topic, it is people with their butts out of their saddles! Movement fore and aft, left and right, distributing weight for traction and balance is so nicely illustrated here.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> The pics really make a difference and you've made some great choices.
> 
> The other great thing to see, slightly off-topic, it is people with their butts out of their saddles! Movement fore and aft, left and right, distributing weight for traction and balance is so nicely illustrated here.


Ditto:thumbsup: 
I'd say though at the same fitness level, racers who can ride flats would be a better racer that can only ride clipless.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

mimi1885 said:


> Ditto:thumbsup:
> I'd say though at the same fitness level, racers who can ride flats would be a better racer that can only ride clipless.


Agreed. But he would still choose his clipless pedals for the XC race


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

tommyrod74 said:


> Agreed. But he would still choose his clipless pedals for the XC race


Absolutely:thumbsup:


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

mimi1885 said:


> Ditto:thumbsup:
> I'd say though at the same fitness level, racers who can ride flats would be a better racer that can only ride clipless.


I can't agree with that. It is just a different approach.

The challenge with this thread is that participants keep wandering away from the original question of which pedals to use. For some reason people want to talk about who is better and which kind of rider is better. It is as if the choice of pedals says something about them personally, their convictions, and their abilities as a mountain biker. That is not the point. The choice of pedals says none of those things.

My way of understanding the answer to the OP's original question is to take a look at what seems to work best. In this specific discussion we are talking about what works best for XC racing. what works best for XC Racing makes for winning. So my take is that we look at the people who are on the podium to see which pedals they are using.

Now if we want to change the question to talk about which makes XC racing more fun or demands more skill, or is more elegant, then we have a whole different discussion. Until we see some concrete evidence, not opinions, not for instances, not individual examples, but a statistical description of which pedals and up on the podium, then we aren't addressing the question.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> My way of understanding the answer to the OP's original question is to take a look at what seems to work best. In this specific discussion we are talking about what works best for XC racing.


Producing an additional 23.5% power output at high intensity using clipless pedals (when compared to exactly the same riders on flat pedals) seems like quite a good reason to use clipless pedals.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7734735&postcount=64

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7761734&postcount=177

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7764297&postcount=196

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7764930&postcount=198

The graph below is my rough impression of how power output varies between flat and clipless pedals. Please note this isn't a technically measured graph. It's trying to illustrate how I see power output changing with pedalling intensity according to the studies that I quoted.

There isn't much, if any difference at lower intensities. You can pedal perfectly happily without clipless pedals if you're not trying hard. Being clipped in doesn't offer increased power output at low intensity. Crucially, being clipped in isn't a disadvantage either.

As you begin to try harder however the clipless pedals begin to open up an advantage over flat pedals. The clipless pedals provide increased power output the harder you try. In a full sprint and at maximum effort then clipless pedals can give you 23.5% more power output than if you were using flat pedals.

Pictured below: My rough impression of how power output varies between flat and clipless pedals. Please note this isn't a technically measured graph. Power output doesn't start at 0 because the X axis is intensity (eg: Borg scale), rather than cadence. i.e. 1 is riding along at a gentle pace not riding at 10rpm.

http://www.secondact.com/2010/08/track-your-training-intensity-using-an-easy-scale/

.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I can't agree with that. It is just a different approach.
> 
> The challenge with this thread is that participants keep wandering away from the original question of which pedals to use. For some reason people want to talk about who is better and which kind of rider is better. It is as if the choice of pedals says something about them personally, their convictions, and their abilities as a mountain biker. That is not the point. The choice of pedals says none of those things.
> 
> ...


Mojo28246, and whybotherme touch on that subject a few post back. Top riders now come in complete package and even have the fair share of DH background it's not a requirement but just make them more dangerous competitors especially when they have the same fitness level.

I'm talking about lower classes racers who's still developing skills and fitness as well as people who's new to racing. It's more benefit to them to know how both types of pedal can help hone their skills during training. Using just one is not going to make them a better rider than people who's more prepared.

If a rider's who's a weekend racer only ride with clipless it would take them longer time to hone their skill than rider who practice with flats as they can push themselves harder and achieve more result in a shorter period of time. When it comes to showtime they can all go back to clipless and show their result on the board.

I race to get my fix, and fulfill my personal goal as well as supporting my local bike scene. I don't register on anyone's radar but it does not mean I don't have any less fun and excitement of racing. I get pass by people who's stronger and better prepared, and I do the same to those who's less prepared than me. Since I'm not in the top class racing I can see riders who's struggle with their pedaling confidence and skills. I see a lot of riders who's stronger than me get bottlenecked an lost valuable time going through technical sections and not confidence enough to clear them, they are better off racing with flat but that's not the image they want to be perceived, like they are newbies. It's the pressure of racing, you have to look like one before you enter because everyone else does it and have good result with it so you gotta to do it too.

You are right about your OP. He's clearly has second thoughts about riding clipless. I would tell him to ride flats until he's confidence enough to ride clipless. But the thread get derailed into which one is ultimately better, which is very informative but provide nothing to help OP. He's not 100% confidence we've all been there before, we should support him and encourage him to try both see which he'd like better, but instead it's tough it out because it's better in the end. It's such a narrow minded view, and bunch of poor advice to give to a beginner racer.

I always consider people who compete in some form of competition experts, and I value their opinion. They may have more wisdom to share with us avid riders, this type of threads prove the opposite. OP, I hope you find some good piece of advice somewhere on this thread:thumbsup:


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

mimi1885 said:


> I'm talking about lower classes racers who's still developing skills and fitness as well as people who's new to racing. It's more benefit to them to know how both types of pedal can help hone their skills during training. Using just one is not going to make them a better rider than people who's more prepared.
> :


I'm just not sure I accept this as given. I hear the same kind of thing from folks who believe in learning on rigid, and from folks who believe on learning on hardtails as necessary steps for skill as well. Yes there may be things to learn but are they necessary? It is like learning to drive on a 3-speed crashbox and no power steering In San Francisco. Sure there is much to learn. Years later I can't say it has made much difference.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I'm just not sure I accept this as given. I hear the same kind of thing from folks who believe in learning on rigid, and from folks who believe on learning on hardtails as necessary steps for skill as well. Yes there may be things to learn but are they necessary? It is like learning to drive on a 3-speed crashbox and no power steering In San Francisco. Sure there is much to learn. Years later I can't say it has made much difference.


I believe in the same thing you do, about hardtail and rigid. I think FS and adj seatpost is the way to go, I race with that as well.

Your example seem to support my theory though. Why learn the harder way when you can learn the easier way, they way that boost confidence. Once you know how to do things on flat and FS you can do similar on clipless and HT, not the other way around. Especially not in the same time frame.

My wife spent a few years on the hardtail learn how to "Pick the line" and see no significant improvement until she start riding FS and adj seatpost, now she can roll over some tech stuff on a fix post HT. Once you know how to do it you can do it on harder format.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> Try this link. It appears to work consistently to the study extract.
> 
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0765-1597(99)80055-0
> 
> ...


Interesting, i really doubt it's 23% for me - that is a fantastic number. But from what i read that only applies to the maximum wattage they recorded - probably from an elite athlete subject who has trained on clipless. In fact i think 950 or 990 watts or so is the largest recorded sustained pedal load produced by an athlete.(no more than a minute). So i am fairly certain the results come from there.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> The significance of this when looking at mountain bike cross country racing is that the pattern of power output during a mountain bike race often involves lots of short sharp spikes of very high intensity. You can see this pattern in the recorded data from your power meter. If using clipless pedals can provide as much as 23.5% more power every time you make a hard effort, then they will provide you with an advantage over a rider who is using flat pedals.
> 
> _*Dissecting Mountain Bike Power Demands*
> From the power data we can see that this 10 minute singletrack climb contained 6 different sections where it was necessary to produce more than 300 watts. These short burst like efforts lasted anywhere from 5 to 25 seconds (highlighted in purple below). Short bursty efforts like these occur repeatedly during mountain biking, close to a hundred times during a 2 hour cross-country race. I crossed checked a 2 hour mountain bike cross country race file and saw 88 such instances!
> ...


From what i've read clipless reward sustained sprints(mechanisms unsure). Partly why i don't disagree with them for road riding. It would seem to be that "punchy" aspects of XC wouldn't be that affected since one isn't spinning at 120rpm usually it is a lower cadence and lower gear for technical sections.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> Producing an additional 23.5% power output at high intensity using clipless pedals (when compared to exactly the same riders on flat pedals) seems like quite a good reason to use clipless pedals.
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7734735&postcount=64
> 
> ...


You're right it isn't a good graph, for one the y axis isn't even quantified...?


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> I made a typo in my earlier post. It's Paol*a* Pezzo.
> 
> This picture from the 1996 Olympics is a good one.


Yes! Paolo sounds too hairy!


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

mimi1885 said:


> Your example seem to support my theory though. Why learn the harder way when........


I don't agree that it proves your theory, especially with one example. I think riding is more difficult if you can't develop power and stamina. My racers, teens who start from scratch, get into clipless pedals in the first month or so as we work on getting "long-winded "so to speak, and building climbing power. That is where the effective racing is done, not in finessing a turn. Handling developes from there in future years. Our high school kids do pretty well at the Natjonal level losing only to the local Coloradans. Not a flat pedal in the bunch. That is not saying you can't learn on flats, it just isn't necessary for effective racing.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I don't agree that it proves your theory, especially with one example. I think riding is more difficult if you can't develop power and stamina. My racers, teens who start from scratch, get into clipless pedals in the first month or so as we work on getting "long-winded "so to speak, and building climbing power. That is where the effective racing is done, not in finessing a turn. Handling developes from there in future years. Our high school kids do pretty well at the Natjonal level losing only to the local Coloradans. Not a flat pedal in the bunch. That is not saying you can't learn on flats, it just isn't necessary for effective racing.


Actually, I do agree with your point especially with high school or or college team. I was in a high school golf team too. It's needed for younger person to have structure. It works well in that case. Plus most teens think that they are unbreakable .

My personal experience is more for recreational riders who like to race, they mix bag of male and female riders in their late 20s/ early 30s some have experienced the situation I posted above. I would not push the same method on to them that's for sure.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> Interesting, i really doubt it's 23% for me - that is a fantastic number. But from what i read that only applies to the maximum wattage they recorded - probably from an elite athlete subject who has trained on clipless. In fact i think 950 or 990 watts or so is the largest recorded sustained pedal load produced by an athlete.(no more than a minute). So i am fairly certain the results come from there.
> ....
> From what i've read clipless reward sustained sprints(mechanisms unsure). Partly why i don't disagree with them for road riding. It would seem to be that "punchy" aspects of XC wouldn't be that affected since one isn't spinning at 120rpm usually it is a lower cadence and lower gear for technical sections.
> ...
> You're right it isn't a good graph, for one the y axis isn't even quantified...?


Clipless pedals don''t automatically mean that any rider can produce 1,000 watts sprinting. At a higher resistance but lower cadence the difference between flat pedals and clipless pedals was more pronounced in the sprinting study. (Power = Torque x Cadence).

A high resistance section in mountain biking (for example powering up a short rocky slope) is where I see the benefit being most noticeable. It's also where you need to produce a lot of power for short periods of time. You can really feel the strain in your legs as you have to produce a lot of torque. You're likely to be using all the muscles you can to keep going at this point, even if it isn't efficient. Jason Hilmire's article explains how common this is over the course of a cross country mountain bike race. The duration of those bursts is very close to the 8 second sprints in the sprint study.

Clipless pedals let you activate more muscles than flat pedals in this situation. Biceps femoris are your hamstrings, Tibialis anterior is the muscle along the front of your shins. The study below shows that using these muscles increased pedalling effectiveness during the upstroke by 86% in elite cyclists (CLIPFBACK) - just what you need to get up a short steep section. You can't pull up with flat pedals so this only applies to clipless pedals.

*Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling.*
_"The aim of this study was to determine the influence of different shoe-pedal interfaces and of an active pulling-up action during the upstroke phase on the pedalling technique.

Eight elite cyclists (C) and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev . min (-1) and 60 % of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke.

There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively.

Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency."_*Mornieux G, Stapelfeldt B, Gollhofer A, Belli A*.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807

I made the graph in post #211 quickly in Microsoft Excel. The Y axis isn't quantified because it's trying to show how I think the relationship between clipless pedals and flat pedals changes as you try harder. There are no power numbers because it isn't specifically for any particular rider, it just shows how I think the trend develops.

It's this statement in picture form: 

"My interpretation of those studies would be that if you're not pedalling very hard then it doesn't appear there's a great deal of difference between flat and clipless pedals. The clipless pedals don't offer much, if any performance benefit at lower intensities. If you're trying hard however, such as in a mountain bike cross country race, then clipless pedals offer a distinct power advantage."


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## Phat Tyred (Feb 25, 2005)

electrik does not wear clipless because they do not come in clown shoes.
Every one else, wear what you like.:thumbsup:


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## Dogbrain (Mar 4, 2008)

Last night I read every post in this thread, and now I'm going to stick an iron in the fire. You have to pedal differently on clipless to get the benefits. If you don't pedal differently then you won't see any difference. When I rode a singlespeed, pulling up with the "back" foot was often the only way to keep the cranks turning on a steep climb. Now I have gears, but I just got used to doing it and it does make a big difference. When I wanted to learn to spin, I started doing 1-legged pedal drills. Just pedal with one leg and concentrate on making it smooth, with even power all the way around. Switch back and forth between the legs, 30 seconds at a shot for 5 minutes (5 "sets" on each leg). Then keep that motion and put the hammer down with both legs. Of course new muscles burn and the heart goes up, but that's what happens when you go faster. If you're heart and lungs can't fuel the increased muscle recruitment then the speed will be short lived. 

As for flats being faster on the descent, I just don't agree. I've always thought the idea of unclipping to hit a techy section was stupid. If you can't get your foot out of your pedal, you need to be riding around the neighborhood clipping and unclipping until you can do it every time without thinking. If you're at the limit of your skills on a particular trail then you aren't racing, just paying money to ride around behind everyone. I don't care if people spend money to ride around behind everyone, but don't pretend that passing someone who's scared of switchbacks means your pedals are better. Cornering takes a lot of practice. Maybe sticking your leg out does make the front wheel dig in, but how fast do you have to be going for that to matter? I just go outside pedal down and weighted, un-weight the inside pedal, push the bars over farther than the body and keep your eyes on the "exit." People who are faster than me taught me the technique. Some of them are screaming bullet fast and do not stick a leg out. Furthermore, lots of our local switchbacks have roots, which seem like they would bounce you off of your one pedal and rack the jewels.


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## claydough001 (Apr 30, 2010)

What's a good shoe and pedal combo for sombody who has never ridden clipped in? Im really want to try being clipped in.


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## Dogbrain (Mar 4, 2008)

claydough001 said:


> What's a good shoe and pedal combo for sombody who has never ridden clipped in? Im really want to try being clipped in.


A good shoe is one that feels good. If you can buy them from a shop where you can try on several pairs then do it. I also like good after-market insoles. If you want to try it on the cheap, most of the web-stores have shoe/pedal combos that are as low as $50. My first pair was a combo from nashbar for $55. I would recommend a pair of low-end spd's with the multi-release cleats to start. If you've never done it before, a knowledgeable person to help you get them in the right position is nice. If not then read Sheldon Brown.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

claydough001 said:


> What's a good shoe and pedal combo for sombody who has never ridden clipped in? Im really want to try being clipped in.


These posts are my attempt at explaining what you should be looking for in a set of clipless pedals and shoes to begin with.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7735168&postcount=66

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7737645&postcount=74

Choosing appropriate shoes for use with flat pedals:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7740547&postcount=89


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Dogbrain said:


> Last night I read every post in this thread, and now I'm going to stick an iron in the fire. You have to pedal differently on clipless to get the benefits. If you don't pedal differently then you won't see any difference. When I rode a singlespeed, pulling up with the "back" foot was often the only way to keep the cranks turning on a steep climb. Now I have gears, but I just got used to doing it and it does make a big difference.
> ...
> As for flats being faster on the descent, I just don't agree. I've always thought the idea of unclipping to hit a techy section was stupid.


That's what the studies imply as well. When you're trying hard and doing everything you can just to keep going (grinding up a hill on your singlespeed is a good example of that) then clipless pedals provide you with a clear and measurable performance advantage. Maybe as much as 23.5% more power output and an increase of 86% pedalling effectiveness on the upstroke when compared to flat pedals. The downside being that net mechanical efficiency decreases by approximately 9%.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7769895&postcount=221

The question of whether flat pedals or clipless pedals are quicker when descending is a whole different argument.:eekster: I'd say it's very much rider preference.


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## claydough001 (Apr 30, 2010)

Dogbrain said:


> A good shoe is one that feels good. If you can buy them from a shop where you can try on several pairs then do it. I also like good after-market insoles. If you want to try it on the cheap, most of the web-stores have shoe/pedal combos that are as low as $50. My first pair was a combo from nashbar for $55. I would recommend a pair of low-end spd's with the multi-release cleats to start. If you've never done it before, a knowledgeable person to help you get them in the right position is nice. If not then read Sheldon Brown.


It's just my shop is mostly roadie stuff and they are expensive. I see lots of good deals online but i guess trying them on first makes way more sense. Can you recommend a comfortable pair around 80 bucks or so? I


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## lassiar (Nov 11, 2010)

*ITT: Your reaction this thread being alive*


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## Rad Rider 415 (Nov 20, 2010)

If you gonna be doing any racing, Clip less is the way to go no questions asked. You will be faster and more of your energy goes into each pedal stroke


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> Clipless pedals don''t automatically mean that any rider can produce 1,000 watts sprinting. At a higher resistance but lower cadence the difference between flat pedals and clipless pedals was more pronounced in the sprinting study. (Power = Torque x Cadence).
> 
> A high resistance section in mountain biking (for example powering up a short rocky slope) is where I see the benefit being most noticeable. It's also where you need to produce a lot of power for short periods of time. You can really feel the strain in your legs as you have to produce a lot of torque. You're likely to be using all the muscles you can to keep going at this point, even if it isn't efficient. Jason Hilmire's article explains how common this is over the course of a cross country mountain bike race. The duration of those bursts is very close to the 8 second sprints in the sprint study.
> 
> ...


Well, of course pull-up increased... but why not 100%... there is no pulling up with platforms - further, their is no discussion about how much help pulling up is. How many more watts?

The other study posted, on activation of muscle fiber, actually showed less recruitment of powerful muscles in the leg when some riders switch from toe-clip to clipless.



> ...Biceps femoris and gastrocnemius lateralis presented lower activity with clipless pedal for three subjects. This led us to conclude that there is less electromyographic activity with the use of clipless pedal." Cruz CF, Bankoff AD 2001


Yes, cadence plays into power, but torque will equally play in also(the world record wasn't set at 120rpm more like a guy with giant guads grinding it)... In technical sections i find it's more about torque and quick bursts in steep gears at appropriate times, not spinning as fast as I can. That may be a stylistic difference. This discussion is also playing more into a whole bit about pedaling techniques, which i suppose is natural, since you cannot engage in the pulling up technique with flats. You can engage in both techniques with clipless pedals, but most here advocate the perfect circles. I think clipless people would be better off ditching that(not getting into a whole other discussion though). I'm not sure simply engaging more minor muscles is better. Probably a bit like firing a small pistol off in the middle of a tank battle and claiming victory!


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

electrik said:


> In technical sections i find it's more about torque and quick bursts in steep gears at appropriate times, not spinning as fast as I can. That may be a stylistic difference.


i am sure my message won't be conveyed appropriately but i will try...

this statement is true, especially when trail riding. in my head i have deemed these "power bursts". when trail riding i have lots of recovery time and can play on obstacles all day. in an XC race though, these "power bursts" are very taxing. if i try to make too many of them in a race, i go straight to crampy land or wind up toasted! very careful energy management is one thing that makes a big difference in my own race performances. just something to keep in mind...

XC racing is not an all out sprint as some might think.:thumbsup:


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

whybotherme said:


> i am sure my message won't be conveyed appropriately but i will try...
> 
> this statement is true, especially when trail riding. in my head i have deemed these "power bursts". when trail riding i have lots of recovery time and can play on obstacles all day. in an XC race though, these "power bursts" are very taxing. if i try to make too many of them in a race, i go straight to crampy land or wind up toasted! very careful energy management is one thing that makes a big difference in my own race performances. just something to keep in mind...
> 
> XC racing is not an all out sprint as some might think.:thumbsup:


That's because during a race, in between those "power bursts" you are "recovering" at race tempo or threshold tempo, unlike recreational trail riding where you can actually soft pedal quite a bit (or even coast) to recover. I know the feeling well...


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> Well, of course pull-up increased... but why not 100%... there is no pulling up with platforms - further, their is no discussion about how much help pulling up is. How many more watts?
> 
> The other study posted, on activation of muscle fiber, actually showed less recruitment of powerful muscles in the leg when some riders switch from toe-clip to clipless.
> ...
> Yes, cadence plays into power, but torque will equally play in also(the world record wasn't set at 120rpm more like a guy with giant guads grinding it)... In technical sections i find it's more about torque and quick bursts in steep gears at appropriate times, not spinning as fast as I can. That may be a stylistic difference. This discussion is also playing more into a whole bit about pedaling techniques, which i suppose is natural, since you cannot engage in the pulling up technique with flats. You can engage in both techniques with clipless pedals, but most here advocate the perfect circles. I think clipless people would be better off ditching that(not getting into a whole other discussion though). I'm not sure simply engaging more minor muscles is better. Probably a bit like firing a small pistol off in the middle of a tank battle and claiming victory!


Hard efforts such as sprinting or climbing steep sections are where I see clipless pedals as providing the most benefit. Anywhere that you need to produce a lot of torque and not just at high cadences. You can feel this happening whilst riding from the strain in your legs.

There aren't any wattage figures to go with those percentages because they aren't included in the abstract. The supporting information and results should be in the full text. It's a shortcoming of being expected to pay $31.50 USD every time you want to view an entire study.

The study comparing toe clips and clipless pedals doesn't provide much information about the testing procedure. It's another one where the full text would be much clearer than simply looking at the abstract. One way to look at that study is that if the riders were tested riding at the same cadence (presumably against an identical resistance) whilst using clipless pedals and toe clips (but displaying less muscle activity using clipless pedals), then the clipless pedals allowed them to produce the same power for less effort.

Increased pedalling effectiveness on the upstroke may not produce any additional power in itself. 86% of nothing is still nothing. It could just reduce the negative effective forces more. It's only when you're trying really hard that some power may actually be produced during the upstroke. This is an explanation of how it works: 

_"*Circular Pedaling*
Cyclists may move their feet in circles during pedaling, but applied force and developed torque in no way appears circular. The clock diagram (diagram a in Figure 5.8) clearly illustrates how pedal forces and torque vary during a pedal cycle. However, as described in the discussion of gravitational, inertial and muscular contributions to pedal loading, the muscular component of pedal force does somewhat represent pedaling circularity. The direction of pedal force application throughout the cycle, derived from muscle contributions, is nearly perpendicular to the crank throughout the entire pedal cycle. However the magnitude of the forces applied at various stages within the cycle is far from equal.
...

*Elite Versus Recreational Cyclist Pedaling Technique*
Cyclists of all abilities exhibit negative effective forces (i.e., forces applied to the pedal perpendicular to the crank but in opposition to crank rotation) during the upstroke (180 to 360 degrees) in steady state cycling. As we have recognized at the Olympic training center, cyclists correctly sense that they lift or pull the leg up during recovery but do not lift the leg as fast as the pedal is rising. Thus, the pedal actually helps lift the leg.

Compared to recreational cyclists, elite cyclists generally have reduced negative force effectiveness during the upstroke, and typically the region of the upstroke during which they exhibit these negative effective forces is reduced. Usually, this counterproductive region is reduced by the cyclist generating positive effective force early in the upstroke (past the bottom of the pedal cycle) and before the pedal reaches the top of the cycle. The magnitude of the negative effective forces during the upstroke increases - gets more negative - as cadence increases (the pedal rises faster). Effective forces during the upstroke are less negative and less counter productive at higher work rate (cycling power) for a given cadence, and may even be positive during sprinting and climbing." _

*High Tech Cycling edited by Edmund R. Burke - Chapter 5 Cycling Biomechanics: Road and Mountain by Jeffrey P Broker Pages 132 & 133*

Pictured below: pedalling force throughout the pedal stroke with a round chainring.
Taken from *High Tech Cycling edited by Edmund R. Burke - Chapter 5 Cycling Biomechanics: Road and Mountain by Jeffrey P Broker Page 131*

http://www.amazon.co.uk/High-Tech-C...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280444331&sr=1-1

(Although it's fairly old now it's still a good book and worth buying.)


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> Hard efforts such as sprinting or climbing steep sections are where I see clipless pedals as providing the most benefit. Anywhere that you need to produce a lot of torque and not just at high cadences. You can feel this happening whilst riding from the strain in your legs.
> 
> There aren't any wattage figures to go with those percentages because they aren't included in the abstract. The supporting information and results should be in the full text. It's a shortcoming of being expected to pay $31.50 USD every time you want to view an entire study.
> 
> ...


Well, i'm going to disagree.. i think that when pushing really hard and slow a clipless shoe offers no exceptional benefit(other than keeping your foot aligned on the pedal)...I also don't think pulling up is a significant component, and 86% doesn't impress since .001 extra watts of pulling up may be a 100% improvement over flats which offer zero watts in pulling up. Look at the muscular component, figure c. Almost all force comes from the down-stroke, this is inline with the biomechanics of the human leg... The massive quads, glutes, hams and even the calf muscles all in that sweep from 1-6(or thereabouts). This is where the power comes from and where I focus my effort. For sure pedaling technique trumps pedal interface. All this is getting to be an effort to debunk the pedaling in circles idea, which is probaby a corruption of pedalling in ellipses, which really is, when viewed from a power perspective pedalling in a half ellipse with a little bit of un-weighting. To clarify one thing, pedaling in circles to me means deliberately yanking on the recovery side of the pedal stroke, not what the people at the Olympic center documented as lightly un-weighting (something which can be done on flats).

Another thought... since we can't be hammering it all the time while riding XC, the net benefits reaped from possible differences between clipless vs platforms might actually be lower than we are assuming. Yes in an all out sprint, probably advantage clips, but for the rest of the course?


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

Well, you just race on your platforms and skate shoes and let us know how it goes.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> Well, i'm going to disagree.. i think that when pushing really hard and slow a clipless shoe offers no exceptional benefit(other than keeping your foot aligned on the pedal)...I also don't think pulling up is a significant component, and 86% doesn't impress since .001 extra watts of pulling up may be a 100% improvement over flats which offer zero watts in pulling up. Look at the muscular component, figure c. Almost all force comes from the down-stroke, this is inline with the biomechanics of the human leg... The massive quads, glutes, hams and even the calf muscles all in that sweep from 1-6(or thereabouts). This is where the power comes from and where I focus my effort. For sure pedaling technique trumps pedal interface. All this is getting to be an effort to debunk the pedaling in circles idea, which is probaby a corruption of pedalling in ellipses, which really is, when viewed from a power perspective pedalling in a half ellipse with a little bit of un-weighting. To clarify one thing, pedaling in circles to me means deliberately yanking on the recovery side of the pedal stroke, not what the people at the Olympic center documented as lightly un-weighting (something which can be done on flats).
> 
> Another thought... since we can't be hammering it all the time while riding XC, the net benefits reaped from possible differences between clipless vs platforms might actually be lower than we are assuming. Yes in an all out sprint, probably advantage clips, but for the rest of the course?


I love that you are still trying.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> I love that you are still trying.


Ditto.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

zrm said:


> Well, you just race on your platforms and skate shoes and let us know how it goes.


I don't have any need for your permission, but thanks!


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

*Where is the OP?*

Dude said he was on a "team" and has a "coach" that is trying to convince him to use clipless.

What blows my mind is that he is on a team that has a personal coach and he has NEVER used clipless.

Should we assume that he has placed top 5 numerous times while pedaling in skate shoes?

This thread is so stupid, but I can't stop checking in for more entertainment. I am going to cancel my cable TV. No need for it anymore.

Is this really happening?


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

*Where is the OP?*

MTBR broke...triple post.. MTBR broke because this thread is loco.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

*Where is the OP?*

Same..


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2011)

Boy all this per pressure to ride clipless, just do what ever makes you happy and be done with it. Oh I will be riding flat for most of my racing this year.:thumbsup:


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> Well, i'm going to disagree.. I think that when pushing really hard and slow a clipless shoe offers no exceptional benefit(other than keeping your foot aligned on the pedal).
> ...
> Since we can't be hammering it all the time while riding XC, the net benefits reaped from possible differences between clipless vs platforms might actually be lower than we are assuming. Yes in an all out sprint, probably advantage clips, but for the rest of the course?


The key point here is that clipless pedals have no proven disadvantages in terms of pedalling power output or efficiency when compared to flat pedals. At worst clipless pedals and flat pedals are the same in terms of pedalling power output and efficiency. At best clipless pedals can provide a significant advantage, especially when trying hard. That's not an argument for why everyone should always use clipless pedals. It is an explanation of why you may choose to use them when racing however.

The results of the sprinting study show that maximum force applied to the pedals when sprinting increased by 15.5% at the higher resistance when using clipless pedals. That's an increase in force on the downstroke (where the most force is produced) at low revs as a result of using clipless pedals. You can see from the plots on the two graphs in the picture that they tested at low revs also. The highest values of fmax (maximum force) were produced at low revs and then the pedal force decreased as the rpm increased (See figure 1 of the sprinting study).

When you're talking about short 8-15 second efforts (as seen in the sprinting study and repeatedly in Jason Hilmire's MTB cross country race power data) then I think the terms "sprint" and "burst" are interchangeable. Your body and muscles are making the same hard maximal effort.

_"Whatever the load friction, a significant difference existed between the PA (clipless pedal) and PS (platform pedal) conditions for the values of fmax (maximum force) and vmax (maximum rpm). Gain fmax (maximum force) and vmax (maximum rpm) for the condition PA (clipless pedal) vs PS (platform pedal) were respectively 16 and 15.5% and 6.5 and 17.4% for 0.5 and 1.1 conditions."_ *F. Hintzy, A. Belli, F. Grappe and J.D. Rouillon* (via Google translate)

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7764297&postcount=196

You raised a very good point in Post #101: That you'd had a lot of experience riding on flat pedals. With experience you can optimise your pedal stroke to work better with flat pedals.

The same statement is also true for clipless pedals. With extended use you adapt your pedalling style to riding with clipless pedals. With experience you can optimise your pedal stroke to work better with clipless pedals. The studies comparing elite and recreational cyclists show that (the inference being that elite cyclists presumably spend more time cycling so will have more experience of using clipless pedals), increasing the benefits they provide the more that you use them.

The upstroke doesn't create much (if any) power in itself. It's the powerful muscles used on the downstroke which produce most of the power over a single crank rotation. What pulling up on the upstroke does do however is reduce the negative effective force the other leg is working against. 86% increased pedalling effectiveness on the upstroke may not produce much (if any) power, but it is still a good thing as it reduces the negative effective force opposing the downstroke power being produced by your other leg.

_"Compared to recreational cyclists, elite cyclists generally have reduced negative force effectiveness during the upstroke, and typically the region of the upstroke during which they exhibit these negative effective forces is reduced.
...
Effective forces during the upstroke are less negative and less counter productive at higher work rate (cycling power) for a given cadence, and may even be positive during sprinting and climbing."_
*High Tech Cycling edited by Edmund R. Burke - Chapter 5 Cycling Biomechanics: Road and Mountain by Jeffrey P Broker Page 133*

_"Eight elite cyclists (C) and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev . min (-1) and 60 % of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke

"When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity"_ *Mornieux G, Stapelfeldt B, Gollhofer A, Belli A*

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7734735&postcount=64

.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

Anybody else starting to think Electric and WR304 or whatever are the same people? Always agreeing and always typing a term paper's worth of explanation with pics and graphs and charts...


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

rydbyk said:


> Anybody else starting to think Electric and WR304 or whatever are the same people? Always agreeing and always typing a term paper's worth of explanation with pics and graphs and charts...


Always agreeing "that the clipless pedal offers a measurable power advantage"??? :eekster:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7761734&postcount=177

Why not try and explain the points?


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> The key point here is that clipless pedals have no proven disadvantages in terms of pedalling power output or efficiency when compared to flat pedals. At worst clipless pedals and flat pedals are the same in terms of pedalling power output and efficiency. At best clipless pedals can provide a significant advantage, especially when trying hard. That's not an argument for why everyone should always use clipless pedals. It is an explanation of why you may choose to use them when racing however.
> 
> The results of the sprinting study show that maximum force applied to the pedals when sprinting increased by 15.5% at the higher resistance when using clipless pedals. That's an increase in force on the downstroke (where the most force is produced) at low revs as a result of using clipless pedals. You can see from the plots on the two graphs in the picture that they tested at low revs also. The highest values of fmax (maximum force) were produced at low revs and then the pedal force decreased as the rpm increased (See figure 1 of the sprinting study).
> 
> ...


Ok, so, to me it is still quiet strange to claim a clipless shoe will increase power. During the downstroke, the cleat is of no mechanical difference to a pinned flat. The pedal upstroke offers an improvement for clipless, but no actual force numbers are available and most elite athletes apparently only un-weight the pedal. Perhaps many of the people in the sprinting study had issues keeping their foot on the platform pedal at higher cadences, this isn't the case with most skilled platform riders. The proper amount of unweighting on the upstroke is learned through practice and therefore will take time to hone - it may have been simpler for the recreation cyclists to clip in. I still need to understand, through which mechanism can power be increased?

If I put magnets in my platforms, would my power be increased? how? :skep:


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## Betamaxstan (Dec 11, 2010)

...


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> Ok, so, to me it is still quite strange to claim a clipless shoe will increase power. During the downstroke, the cleat is of no mechanical difference to a pinned flat. ... I still need to understand, through which mechanism can power be increased?
> 
> If I put magnets in my platforms, would my power be increased? how? :skep:


In order to explain this you need to return to Post #89. The more securely that your foot is attached to the pedal the less likely it is that it will slide off. It's why you chose to ride with large pinned flat pedals and soft five ten shoes over a small unpinned pedal and trainers - in order to provide more grip (friction).

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7740547&postcount=89

If you look at the arrows in the pedalling force diagram in Post #234 pedalling force on the downstroke isn't purely in a downwards direction. At the peak section of the downstroke pedalling force is a combination of down and forwards pressure. Even the friction between pinned flat pedals and five ten shoes can be overcome if there's too much forwards pressure. The friction produced may be high but it isn't insurmountable. Clipless pedals are more secure again. So long as the clipless pedal's release spring tension isn't overcome then your foot will stay attached to the pedal, even when applying strong forces that aren't directed competely downwards.

At high pedalling force being clipped in holds your foot in place so that your strongest leg muscles can work as hard as possible on the downstroke (including forwards pressure on the pedal), without the foot coming off the pedal if your grip fails. I'd compare being clipped into the pedals in these high pedalling force situations as similar to using wrist straps when weight lifting. It's the same concept. Being clipped in removes a limiting factor (the friction between shoe sole and pedal) from how hard you can push down, allowing greater force to be applied.

_"Wrist straps, long strips of cloth such as nylon or cotton with a loops on one end, come in pairs. You may also find leather or suede wrist straps. Power lifters use the straps on exercises such as deadlifts and shrugs where they need to use heavier weights than their grip can accommodate. Wrist straps supplement your grip by tying the weight to your wrist. In the event that your grip fails, the straps will hold the weight, preventing it from falling on the floor or your foot."_

Putting magnets in your shoes could be for a variety of reasons. Unlike with clipless pedals there's no scientific evidence to support the claim that they provide any benefit.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=665288&highlight=phiten

*Magnetic-Therapy*
_Old Chinese texts dating back to 2000 B.C. make references to the application of lodestones at acupuncture sites. Similarly, Hindu scriptures of the 40th century mention the treatment of diseases with lodestones. The Greeks called them lapus-vivas (live-stones) and drew them from the fields rich in deposits of magnetic stones in southern Greece. The Egyptians ascribed a variety of therapeutic uses to lodestones. Electric eels and fish were used by Romans to treat arthritis and gout, and medieval doctors reported that magnets could cure melancholy, arthritis and baldness. Somewhere along the line, cynicism stepped in and medical science refuted the use of magnets. However, magnetic therapy was revived in the late 19th century and today Tectonic magnets are regularly used by golf, baseball and football sports celebrities for pain relief.

Magnets are also placed on insoles of shoes, and designed in a manner so as to access acupressure points on the soles of the feet. This provides great relief to the feet and rejuvenates them on long walks.

Magnetic mattress pads are also believed to be very relaxing for the body and especially aid insomniacs. Magnetic beds apparently calm the nervous system and bring emotional and physical relaxation to the body."_

http://www.howmagnetswork.com/uses.html

.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

WR304:

"Some cross country mountain bike examples where the answer "because everybody uses them" has changed dramatically over time would be 29er wheels, stem length/ frame geometry, disc brakes, full suspension and wide riser bars."

Rydbyk:

This is the worst parallel ever. Each example above features forward progression. You failed to mention clipless pedals in your list.

None of your examples above show a regression in technology. Ditching your clipless pedals to use bmx style platform pedals w/ skate shoes is regression my friend.

Regression.

Platforms were used a long time ago only because they were the only pedals available during mountain biking's infancy. (plus toe clips)

Nobody has EVER heard of anyone who raced on clipless pedals for a period of time and THEN switched back to platform pedals and skate shoes for racing XC. It does not happen. Never has. Never will. Stop the insanity..


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> In order to explain this you need to return to Post #89. The more securely that your foot is attached to the pedal the less likely it is that it will slide off. It's why you chose to ride with large pinned flat pedals and soft five ten shoes over a small unpinned pedal and trainers - in order to provide more grip (friction).
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7740547&postcount=89
> 
> ...


What you're claiming(that shoes will slide off the pedal at the bottom of the stroke) depends on the parallel force vector is not exceeding the friction(perpendicular force) on the platform. I've never heard of people's feet literally sliding off pinned platforms and tearing through the soles of their sticky shoes due to leg power smearing the shoe right off the flat - have you? Most of the guys I know complain they have to lift off the pins to adjust foot position. This wasn't always the case mind you! Newer sticky shoes are worlds better. In addition I have heard a lot of talk about pedaling in circles(deliberately pulling up), this could cause the problems you're speaking about. The maximal force component which is perpendicular to the pedal will not be improved by changing pedals. IMO, this is by far the largest component of almost all pedal strokes.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

rydbyk said:


> WR304:
> 
> "Some cross country mountain bike examples where the answer "because everybody uses them" has changed dramatically over time would be 29er wheels, stem length/ frame geometry, disc brakes, full suspension and wide riser bars."
> 
> ...


You've misquoted me. There are two sections to that post. The first section is about why comments such as this don't add anything to the discussion.



rydbyk said:


> "Also, clearly clipless pedals are just a fad. I mean, they have only been the pedal of choice for everyone who cares about winning XC races for 2 decades."


Without supporting evidence it's a meaningless claim. You could easily have made exactly the same comment during a debate about toe clip pedals in the early 1980s as a reason for why toe clip pedals were better than clipless pedals. At the time toe clip pedals were the main pedal in use for road racing, and had been what "everyone" used for decades previously. Many races were won using toe clip pedals.

The debate about whether clipless pedals or toe clip pedals were superior was very heated at the time that the Look clipless pedals were introduced in the early 1980s. With the benefit of hindsight, and research providing proof, it can be shown that clipless pedals provide a measurable advantage. It certainly wasn't taken as fact at the time however.

What I actually said was:



WR304 said:


> I agree that simply replying "because everybody uses them" isn't really a good enough answer. It's always worth asking "why"?
> 
> Some cross country mountain bike examples where the answer "because everybody uses them" has changed dramatically over time would be 29er wheels, stem length/ frame geometry, disc brakes, full suspension and wide riser bars.


http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7761734&postcount=177

If you want to make the case for why a particular equipment choice (in this case using clipless pedals rather than flat pedals) is better then that claim has to be backed up with facts and research, rather than just anecdotes.

My argument has consistently been that clipless pedals provide an advantage over flat pedals. The second part of the post was setting out "why" clipless pedals provide an advantage over flat pedals. If clipless pedals are superior to flat pedals then it will be (and is) proveable by referring to available research and studies on the subject.

The existence of this research in itself shows that the subject of pedalling is by no means clear cut. If the subject is completely understood then why do researchers still feel the need to examine it and conduct studies comparing different pedal attachments?


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

WR304 said:


> You've misquoted me. There are two sections to that post. The first section is about why comments such as this don't add anything to the discussion.
> 
> Without supporting evidence it's a meaningless claim. You could easily have made exactly the same comment during a debate about toe clip pedals in the early 1980s as a reason for why toe clip pedals were better than clipless pedals. At the time toe clip pedals were the main pedal in use for road racing, and had been what "everyone" used for decades previously. Many races were won using toe clip pedals.
> 
> ...


ALSO:

The SHOES make a huge difference too. Platform pedals do not lend themselves to quality stiff shoes that make the pedal stroke more efficient. There is a reason that XC race shoes/road shoes are stiff as a board. No...I am not going to research this. It is purely anecdotal and I don't care.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> ALSO:
> 
> The SHOES make a huge difference too. Platform pedals do not lend themselves to quality stiff shoes that make the pedal stroke more efficient. There is a reason that XC race shoes/road shoes are stiff as a board. No...I am not going to research this. It is purely anecdotal and I don't care.


Crazy stiff soles sure feel stiff, but unless your feet are cemented into bricks on the inside the benefits seem dubious. I don't see why a platform shoe's sole can't be stiff...?


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## Bubba Dinglespeed (Jan 31, 2011)

*Clipless > Ankle Fracture > Flat pedals*

I used to ride Clipless for years, commuting and trail riding until last year. Riding home from school after a rainstorm, slipped in a puddle on a bike path, rear wheel spun out and before I knew it, I was on my ass in a mud puddle with my ankle completely twisted out.
Trip to the ER, trimalleolar fracture, surgery, screws and plates.
Was back on the bike in less than 2 months. Now I ride flats for two reasons: 
1) Can't afford another round of medical bills if it happens again!
2) My left calf muscle can't handle the pressure of the clipless.
It took a while to get used to going back to old school flat pedal riding but I enjoy it now. Plus I can wear any kind of shoes and don't have to waste time and money on special shoes, cleats and pedals. I never thought I would ever switch, but sometimes your body makes that choice for you. Old school BMX pedals are pretty comfortable and take a beating!


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## lassiar (Nov 11, 2010)




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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

Bubba Dinglespeed said:


> I used to ride Clipless for years, commuting and trail riding until last year. Riding home from school after a rainstorm, slipped in a puddle on a bike path, rear wheel spun out and before I knew it, I was on my ass in a mud puddle with my ankle completely twisted out.
> Trip to the ER, trimalleolar fracture, surgery, screws and plates.
> Was back on the bike in less than 2 months. Now I ride flats for two reasons:
> 1) Can't afford another round of medical bills if it happens again!
> ...


How do they work out for you in your XC races?


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

*DUH, TWO SIDED PEDALS!?!?! (Taking your bait)*

If this thread is really for real(which I don't believe): HEY! they have these two sided pedals Wellgo-WAM-D10 (other brands too!)
and you and clip in when it's easy or unclip when you feel chicken (burley/gnarly).
I enjoy the best of both worlds. Na na na na na!
In XC races! Na na na na na!
So there.
I clip when confident and unclip to rail the tough and rough sections. Who said you have to choose?
Just don't get shoes with plastic bottoms that won't grip the platform side.

I do think the mid-sole clip idea is sick cuz when I'm on the platform side that is where my feet like it naturally. If this thread has produced any positives at all? :madman: it is that midsole clip placement/shoe mod. Thanks yall!:thumbsup:

elec is a troll please stop feeding the bears ,dont bother whybotherme
I LOVE THE INTERNET comment was great many lols 
charts too techy though losing me in details, (boring audience).
please stop the madness and ride.
geez cabin fever. go do some sprints around your block!!!! that will help your
racing better than whatever kind of pedals you use!!!! come on build your engine.
Kill the completion. *on any pedal*, *on any bike*, come on now? Do you really think
a race will come down to pedals? This AGAIN is a cross country racing/ training
forum. Hill repeats, intervals, 6 hrs, 12 hrs, be a MAN on ANY pedal!!!!!!! WTF?


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## Bubba Dinglespeed (Jan 31, 2011)

_tom_ said:


> How do they work out for you in your XC races?


I haven't raced since I broke my ankle, but when I do, I'll just be happy to be out there! I like long all, day rides in the hills around Phoenix. Just happy to get home to a cold beer after an 8, 10, 12 hour ride! I leave the hot rodding to all the young bucks out there!


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> What you're claiming (that shoes will slide off the pedal at the bottom of the stroke) depends on the parallel force vector is not exceeding the friction (perpendicular force) on the platform. I've never heard of people's feet literally sliding off pinned platforms and tearing through the soles of their sticky shoes due to leg power smearing the shoe right off the flat - have you? Most of the guys I know complain they have to lift off the pins to adjust foot position. This wasn't always the case mind you! Newer sticky shoes are worlds better.


The maximum pedalling force isn't generated at the bottom of the pedal stroke. It's generated during the downstroke when the crank arm is at around 3 o'clock. This is roughly where you are pushing down hardest on the pedal. As you can see from the diagrams in Post #106 the muscular component of pedalling force (when using clipless pedals) between 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock is a combination of forwards and downwards force.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7743217&postcount=106

I was thinking about this whilst doing some intervals on the turbo trainer today. The turbo trainer is good because you can look at these aspects easily (there isn't much to do besides pedal). When pedalling with clipless pedals my pedal stroke has a clearly defined forward motion to it throughout the 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock phase, as pictured in the muscular pedalling diagram in Post #106. I can feel my foot pressing forwards against the top of the shoe. This forwards force is closer to perpendicular (roughly 90 degrees to the crank arm) than a purely downwards pedal force during the 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock phase. "Useful pedal force" creating additional torque and power. Remember that it's force applied perpendicular to the crank arm (not perpendicular to the pedal) which is most effective.

It's possible to adjust the pedalling stroke so that you don't do this and only push straight down with the pedal. The lack of pressure between the top of shoe and foot is very noticeable when you do this. I'd imagine this is what you do with flat pedals to stop the foot coming off - automatically adjust the downwards stroke so that pressure is always applied straight down, (perpendicular to the pedal) rather than being perpendicular to the crank arm, a less effective application of your muscular power. If you were to try pushing strongly forwards during the 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock phase with flat pedals then your foot would come off the pedal, because there wouldn't be enough downwards force to keep the foot pressed down onto the pedal.

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/vectors/U3L3a.cfm

Whether you are using sticky soled shoes (such as Five Tens) or a pair of trainers the same two dimensional forces are exerted. Even with a sticky soled shoe it's still only held in place by friction. As you state you _have_ heard of people's feet literally sliding off their flat pedals and the soles being torn.

It's possible to demonstrate that friction by itself isn't enough to solidly hold your feet in place when pedalling by looking at the sole of a shoe which has been used with pinned flat pedals for an extended period of time. The long fore - aft cuts in the shoe's tread where the pedal pins have slid along it (in the direction of pedalling) are a clear indication that the friction between shoe and pedal can often be overcome.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=684822

Pictured below: The sole of a shoe which has been used with flat pedals. The long cuts in the sole in the direction of pedalling are a sign that the friction between shoe and pedal isn't insurmountable. If the shoe was always held firmly in place then these cuts wouldn't exist.


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

lassiar said:


>


FTW!


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

I guess one thing I don't get is the sole reason for riding platforms (other the just style) is to be able to take your foot off the pedal when you feel the need to put a foot down/out for whatever reason. In all the years I've been riding clipless pedals, I've never had a problem getting a foot out when I wanted and getting it back in the pedal isn't that hard either. It just isn't that hard.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> The maximum pedalling force isn't generated at the bottom of the pedal stroke. It's generated during the downstroke when the crank arm is at around 3 o'clock. This is roughly where you are pushing down hardest on the pedal. As you can see from the diagrams in Post #106 the muscular component of pedalling force (when using clipless pedals) between 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock is a combination of forwards and downwards force.
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7743217&postcount=106
> 
> ...


All my points regarding vectors were meant to be w.r.t. the pedal, yes I know where the power is generated during a downstroke, but you were stating there wasn't enough force to keep your foot on the pedal near the end of the power phase. There is indeed enough friction to keep the shoe on the pins, even if it is "only" friction.

I like your picture of the shoes, they seem _very_ well used, but for what, dirt jumping? street? I never said there was't any force being exerted parallel to those pedals, only that it will not be over-come by the perpendicular component when using proper technique.

If your foot is pushing forward that hard at the top of the stroke(to slide your sticky shoes off the pins?) it's going to be really hard on your acl, try rotating the angle of the pedal counter-clockwise a few degree and focus on pushing downwards.

After all this, it is still not clear to me how those clipless will give 23% more power.


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## fux (Oct 21, 2006)

XC racing on flatties is just silly.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> All my points regarding vectors were meant to be w.r.t. the pedal, yes I know where the power is generated during a downstroke, but you were stating there wasn't enough force to keep your foot on the pedal near the end of the power phase. There is indeed enough friction to keep the shoe on the pins, even if it is "only" friction.
> 
> I like your picture of the shoes, they seem _very_ well used, but for what, dirt jumping? street? I never said there was't any force being exerted parallel to those pedals, only that it will not be over-come by the perpendicular component when using proper technique.
> 
> ...


Post #106 would have been a better link originally because it also has the graph showing measured power output at different points of the crank rotation. The downwards forces shown at the bottom of the stroke (in figures a & b of Diagram 5.8 from Post #106) are "wasted pedal load" (as set out in the diagram in Post #182) because they aren't perpendicular to the crank arm. That downwards force on the pedal doesn't create any additional torque or power.

The actual peak power output section of the downstroke (where maximum torque is created) is near to 3 o'clock, and not the bottom of the pedal stroke at 6 o'clock. Your foot might come off the pedal at the end of the power phase near or just past 6 o'clock with flat pedals. It would be because you were trying to pull it backwards and upwards however, not forwards and down.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7743217&postcount=106

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7761897&postcount=182

I wasn't clear enough by what I meant when referring you to the pedalling force diagram in Post #234. I've quoted it again with four key words added in bold. This is what I intended to say.



WR304 said:


> If you look at the arrows in the *muscular component of the *pedalling force diagram in Post #234 pedalling force on the downstroke isn't purely in a downwards direction. At the peak section of the downstroke pedalling force is a combination of down and forwards pressure. Even the friction between pinned flat pedals and five ten shoes can be overcome if there's too much forwards pressure. The friction produced may be high but it isn't insurmountable. Clipless pedals are more secure again. So long as the clipless pedal's release spring tension isn't overcome then your foot will stay attached to the pedal, even when applying strong forces that aren't directed competely downwards.


The point I'm trying to illustrate is exactly what you're saying:



electrik said:


> I never said there wasn't any force being exerted parallel to those pedals, only that it will not be over-come by the perpendicular component *when using proper technique.*


That "proper technique" is the difference so far as I can tell.

"Proper technique" with flat pedals means you have to keep pushing down in order to keep your feet in place on the pedals, either consciously or unconsciously. "Proper technique" with flat pedals isn't the same as "proper technique" with clipless pedals. Proper technique with clipless pedals means pushing forwards and down so that you are able to apply more forwards pressure than with flat pedals through the peak section of the downstroke. This additional forwards pressure should result in more force perpendicular to the crank arm, an effective use of the force applied increasing power output.

This is where I see the measured differences in power output and maximum force displayed between clipless pedals and flat pedals in the sprinting study as coming from. You can use what would be "bad technique" with flat pedals in order to create more power when using clipless pedals, because your feet are firmly attached to the pedals. That's my view of how the difference arises.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> Post #106 would have been a better link originally because it also has the graph showing measured power output at different points of the crank rotation. The downwards forces shown at the bottom of the stroke (in figures a & b of Diagram 5.8 from Post #106) are "wasted pedal load" (as set out in the diagram in Post #182) because they aren't perpendicular to the crank arm. That downwards force on the pedal doesn't create any additional torque or power.
> 
> The actual peak power output section of the downstroke (where maximum torque is created) is near to 3 o'clock, and not the bottom of the pedal stroke at 6 o'clock. Your foot might come off the pedal at the end of the power phase near or just past 6 o'clock with flat pedals. It would be because you were trying to pull it backwards and upwards however, not forwards and down.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I would like to know if fig 5.11 from post 106 is for clipless shoes only? Of course the greatest mechanical advantage is right near 3 o'clock.Given the sinusoidal appearance of the waves, and the slight shift for sprinting i'm guess that is only because the rider is no longer seated. Yes any force parallel the the crank arm is waste, but i'm not sure the required friction force is sapping 23% of your energy. This is becoming more about technique, notice how the sprinter can produce more power, but the muscular component vectors will probably change as will the pedal angles when they leave the seat. This sort of phase shift may be accounting in between the platform and clipless technique. I can tell you the "smearing dog ****" off my shoe technique for flats helped to improve my pedaling nearer to 6 and i don't have issues(unless my shoe soles are old like the ones pictured).


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

electrik said:


> All my points regarding vectors


vectors, it's what plants crave


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

bamwa1 said:


> vectors, it's what plants crave


What do you get when you cross a tick with a mountain climber?


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## Robbieisbobert (Dec 22, 2007)

If anyone really cares about my opinion at this point, I see that clipless may have merit, but clipless pedals do you no good when you can't ride because of them.

To highlight my point, I will tell you that I had been riding clipless before I began this thread. I made my first post to make this thread as subjective as possible. But, a week before I created this thread I ate it kinda hard whilst riding SPD's and Shimano pedals. I set my pedal tension such that I did not unclip when I did not usually want to but loose enough that I would unclip given time to do so. When I fell, one foot unclipped but the other did not, resulting in the frame of my bike impacting the side of my knee. I gave the system a try for about 2 weeks, and the same thing happened twice but in varying degrees. After my second crash, I spent a few weeks resting my knee because of what seemed like minor impact trauma.

As it stands right now, clipless has lost its merit as it kept me from riding due to injury when I would have come out fine from my crash on flats. Just something to consider...


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Robbieisbobert said:


> If anyone really cares about my opinion at this point, I see that clipless may have merit, but clipless pedals do you no good when you can't ride because of them.


Nope, it's not your thread anymore this issue is bigger than all of us

From my experience it takes a while to get your muscle memory going and clipping/unclipping become second nature. I have the best luck with firmest tension as low tension+rough terrain is just a bad combo, just as disastrous as your can't get out of the pedal:thumbsup:


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## p nut (Apr 19, 2007)

Robbieisbobert said:


> If anyone really cares about my opinion at this point, I see that clipless may have merit, but clipless pedals do you no good when you can't ride because of them.
> 
> To highlight my point, I will tell you that I had been riding clipless before I began this thread. I made my first post to make this thread as subjective as possible. But, a week before I created this thread I ate it kinda hard whilst riding SPD's and Shimano pedals. I set my pedal tension such that I did not unclip when I did not usually want to but loose enough that I would unclip given time to do so. When I fell, one foot unclipped but the other did not, resulting in the frame of my bike impacting the side of my knee. I gave the system a try for about 2 weeks, and the same thing happened twice but in varying degrees. After my second crash, I spent a few weeks resting my knee because of what seemed like minor impact trauma.
> 
> As it stands right now, clipless has lost its merit as it kept me from riding due to injury when I would have come out fine from my crash on flats. Just something to consider...


I also crashed a few times transitioning from a tricycle to a bicycle. Glad I stuck with it, though. Some of these tech sections would be tough on a wide FWD rig.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

Robbieisbobert said:


> If anyone really cares about my opinion at this point, I see that clipless may have merit, but clipless pedals do you no good when you can't ride because of them.
> 
> To highlight my point, I will tell you that I had been riding clipless before I began this thread. I made my first post to make this thread as subjective as possible. But, a week before I created this thread I ate it kinda hard whilst riding SPD's and Shimano pedals. I set my pedal tension such that I did not unclip when I did not usually want to but loose enough that I would unclip given time to do so. When I fell, one foot unclipped but the other did not, resulting in the frame of my bike impacting the side of my knee. I gave the system a try for about 2 weeks, and the same thing happened twice but in varying degrees. After my second crash, I spent a few weeks resting my knee because of what seemed like minor impact trauma.
> 
> As it stands right now, clipless has lost its merit as it kept me from riding due to injury when I would have come out fine from my crash on flats. Just something to consider...


No doubt, if you want to sink enough time figuring it out you can. Let me say, you will crash, badly on occasion even, because you can't clip out in time. It's a promise. Anyways. Despite all this talk, I still think there is no need to bother clipping in until it somehow becomes very obvious to yourself that the flats are holding you back. If somebody promises you 23% improvement or whatever, please to be a bit skeptical.

First step would be to try your clips on the road, do some hills, sprints... are you really faster on them? Quantify it for yourself, one shoe does not fit all.


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

electrik said:


> What do you get when you cross a tick with a mountain climber?


A math joke. yawn


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

bamwa1 said:


> A math joke. yawn


I can see you're the life of a party!


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

Robbieisbobert said:


> If anyone really cares about my opinion at this point, I see that clipless may have merit, but clipless pedals do you no good when you can't ride because of them.
> 
> To highlight my point, I will tell you that I had been riding clipless before I began this thread. I made my first post to make this thread as subjective as possible. But, a week before I created this thread I ate it kinda hard whilst riding SPD's and Shimano pedals. I set my pedal tension such that I did not unclip when I did not usually want to but loose enough that I would unclip given time to do so. When I fell, one foot unclipped but the other did not, resulting in the frame of my bike impacting the side of my knee. I gave the system a try for about 2 weeks, and the same thing happened twice but in varying degrees. After my second crash, I spent a few weeks resting my knee because of what seemed like minor impact trauma.
> 
> As it stands right now, clipless has lost its merit as it kept me from riding due to injury when I would have come out fine from my crash on flats. Just something to consider...


So....you race on a "team" and have a "coach" eh? How about loosening the pedals so that they function properly so that you can race properly.

Fixed teh prollem...

Next time you see ANYONE on the podium at Cat 2 or higher who raced XC in platforms, you be sure to let us know. I agree with the other member's comment about transitioning from tricycle to bicycle. Just get on with it already. MTFU.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> So....you race on a "team" and have a "coach" eh? How about loosening the pedals so that they function properly so that you can race properly.
> 
> Fixed teh prollem...
> 
> Next time you see ANYONE on the podium at Cat 2 or higher who raced XC in platforms, you be sure to let us know. I agree with the other member's comment about transitioning from tricycle to bicycle. Just get on with it already. MTFU.


Actually, congrats to the OP for not being a simple push-over like so many before him.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> Actually, congrats to the OP for not being a simple push-over like so many before him.


Yes, those of us who managed somehow to overcome the horrible burden of learning to ride with clipless pedals envy both of you. Damn our vulnerability to peer pressure.


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## Dogbrain (Mar 4, 2008)

electrik said:


> What do you get when you cross a tick with a mountain climber?


The cross product is not defined for scalars.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

Dogbrain said:


> The cross product is not defined for scalars.


Yes, you can't cross a vector with a scalar! :thumbsup:


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> Yes, those of us who managed somehow to overcome the horrible burden of learning to ride with clipless pedals envy both of you. Damn our vulnerability to peer pressure.


Exactly.

Next those pros will have you wearing a compression bra and sleeping in a oxygen tent in the backyard... at this point why bother demanding facts or asking why. Winners don't demand proof a trend is sound.

Enjoy your night's rest tommyrod... :lol: (I am sure you can overcome!! MTFU!!)


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## rubystreet (Dec 8, 2007)




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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

It's the thread that won't die!:lol:


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

*Logic is lame*



tommyrod74 said:


> Yes, those of us who managed somehow to overcome the horrible burden of learning to ride with clipless pedals envy both of you. Damn our vulnerability to peer pressure.


I know... I have to admit, I use a handlebar out of peer pressure too. I want to be cool like the pros are. I know deep down inside that a steering wheel on a bike makes more sense, but for some reason all of the pros use handlebars instead. I also use a modern helmet instead of a skid-lid because of peer pressure. I noticed that the pros stopped wearing skid-lids, so I stopped also.

Now...if I could just figure out a way to get a coaster brake attached to my mtb..

Really....what I want to do is take all logic and throw it out the window. In fact, I am going to start eating 20 Snickers bars a day to get more fit. It will not benefit me at all to replicate a professional's diet. That would just be stoopid also.

Eating healthy is just a trendy thing that wannabes do to act like pros. It makes no sense at all much like clipless pedals make no sense.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

electrik said:


> Actually, congrats to the OP for not being a simple push-over like so many before him.


He stopped using clipless pedals because he is not confident enough to use them. It. is. that. simple.

He said so himself. That is the ONLY reason. He is concerned about crashing again.

What OP said: "As it stands right now, clipless has lost its merit as it kept me from riding due to injury when I would have come out fine from my crash on flats."


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> He stopped using clipless pedals because he is not confident enough to use them. It. is. that. simple.
> 
> He said so himself. That is the ONLY reason. He is concerned about crashing again.
> 
> What OP said: "As it stands right now, clipless has lost its merit as it kept me from riding due to injury when I would have come out fine from my crash on flats."


Take a dose of your own medicine and HTFU instead of pretending it's about the shoes.


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## Robbieisbobert (Dec 22, 2007)

Let me present another perspective: If clipless are so easy to get out of in a crash, then why do a lot of DH'ers use flats?


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Robbieisbobert said:


> Let me present another perspective: If clipless are so easy to get out of in a crash, then why do a lot of DH'ers use flats?


How about the opposite perspective? If clipless are so hard to get out of, then why do so many DH'ers, BMX'ers, XC racers, and CX racers use clipless?

Flats are a viable option for DH, BMX, freeride, general XC riding... and XC racing if you don't particularly care about your results.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> Take a dose of your own medicine and HTFU instead of pretending it's about the shoes.


Nobody thinks it''s about the shoes. The engine wins the race. Trust me, I know from experience winning and losing.

But NO ONE would go to the trouble to perfect the engine by training hard and consistently (and not riding 2-3X/week then racing once or twice a year, not particularly caring about results) then hamstring it by using a suboptimal method of power transfer. NO ONE.

Hell's bells, even very skilled DH'ers and freeriders I know use clipless whenever just RIDING XC trails, much less racing,

You're not being a "free thinker", you're just being stubborn.


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

Robbieisbobert said:


> If anyone really cares about my opinion at this point, I see that clipless may have merit, but clipless pedals do you no good when you can't ride because of them.
> 
> To highlight my point, I will tell you that I had been riding clipless before I began this thread. I made my first post to make this thread as subjective as possible. But, a week before I created this thread I ate it kinda hard whilst riding SPD's and Shimano pedals. I set my pedal tension such that I did not unclip when I did not usually want to but loose enough that I would unclip given time to do so. When I fell, one foot unclipped but the other did not, resulting in the frame of my bike impacting the side of my knee. I gave the system a try for about 2 weeks, and the same thing happened twice but in varying degrees. After my second crash, I spent a few weeks resting my knee because of what seemed like minor impact trauma.
> 
> As it stands right now, clipless has lost its merit as it kept me from riding due to injury when I would have come out fine from my crash on flats. Just something to consider...


I suggest you start racing with flats, then revisit this thread.


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## TomactypeX (Aug 8, 2010)

zrm said:


> It's the thread that won't die!:lol:


I just read through this thread....don't let it die! lol

It is really entertaining to read.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

Robbieisbobert said:


> Let me present another perspective: If clipless are so easy to get out of in a crash, then why do a lot of DH'ers use flats?


It isn't about crashing. Like someone said, go get some races under your belt. Then revisit this thread in a couple of seasons.

Also, speak with your team and coach about it again. Maybe train on clipless and race on platforms until you are confident enough to race with clipless again some day.

Also, get some better clipless pedals that actually release your shoes during a crash more effectively perhaps?

Also, chics dig guys who race with clipliss pedals. Harvard did a study.


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## lassiar (Nov 11, 2010)

electrik said:


> Take a dose of your own medicine and HTFU instead of pretending it's about the shoes.


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## lassiar (Nov 11, 2010)

BTW, I'm still recruiting VC for my thailand startup. Performance Enhancing Amputees Registry or PEAR. It's the way of the future! Chuck Norris will lactate when he sees how well our athletes do.

PM me for paypal details.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> Nobody thinks it''s about the shoes. The engine wins the race. Trust me, I know from experience winning and losing.
> 
> But NO ONE would go to the trouble to perfect the engine by training hard and consistently (and not riding 2-3X/week then racing once or twice a year, not particularly caring about results) then hamstring it by using a suboptimal method of power transfer. NO ONE.
> 
> ...


If it's not about the shoes then what the hell do you have your panties in a bunch about!!

Sub-optimal my arse... by how much is a clipless shoe superior to a flat? Hah!

So, it's "not about the shoes" tommyrod... what is it gonna be?


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## Combatcm (Nov 15, 2005)

ooo


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

Robbieisbobert said:


> Let me present another perspective: If clipless are so easy to get out of in a crash, then why do a lot of DH'ers use flats?


Don't bother to beg the question anymore, go see for yourself test it out - it is the only way!

:rant:
People here have a serious shoe/gear fetish issues and you won't get a thoughtful answer from most of these types. They won't even try or consider it - just write it off! It's a never ending litany of products... clipless, 29r, tubeless, 2x10, oxygen tents, different types of goop and snakeoils ... you'd need it all to be "competitive" and you're selling yourself out if you don't get it. Whatever the object of xc fetishism is, you'll desperately need it to place in a regional or state race. If it's new, it's automatically better! just check out some of thread titles here to sample the neurotic nature of those types. Race how *you* want. Life is too short to stop halfway and get *forced* to relearn pedalling. If you can't be competitive on your flats and get the results you want, then you'll have to join the shoe fetish crowd and your answer will be a forgone conclusion of your joining. If you really are curious try flats, instead of reading robotic mass plastering of studies of why they're no good, it can be done and has been done! Good luck!


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## Combatcm (Nov 15, 2005)

Life is too short to use flats, get hurt and then quit them

Join the fetish

If you wanna be a mid pack sport rider at your best then i suppose you can settle


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

electrik said:


> Race how *you* want. Life is too short to stop halfway and get *forced* to relearn pedalling. If you can't be competitive on your flats and get the results you want, then you'll have to join the shoe fetish crowd and your answer will be a forgone conclusion of your joining. If you really are curious try flats, instead of reading robotic mass plastering of studies of why they're no good, it can be done and has been done! Good luck!


I think it is clear who the fetishist is around here.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> If you really are curious try flats, *instead of reading robotic mass plastering of studies of why they're no good *, it can be done and has been done! Good luck!


Posting studies as a direct response to requests for studies and statistical data? 



Robbieisbobert said:


> Are you placed at a severe disadvantage by going against the grain and riding platforms?* Please support your assertions with examples and/or statistical data*.





electrik said:


> Sure, but everybody wore clipless probably. I just want to know, where is some actual evidence clipless are clearly superior and not just incidental or trendy. A lot of people have tried to call me out for making such an obvious statement - the emperor has new clothes?
> 
> *Give me the data* to justify these claims that you need clipless shoes to be a winner.





electrik said:


> I don't get it, if it is SO obvious then i'm sure you can EASILY support your opinions... if you guys want to say i like clipless because they feel better or i like clipless because i fit in and the pros all have it, go ahead. I have an issue to swallow the fact platforms are what is holding me back from being a winner. Keep trying to ram that "fact" down people's throat if you want - your business - but did you ever stop to think maybe you could be just a bit dishonest in doing so? *Maybe you shouldn't offer up clipless as performance enhancing to people without some actual quantitative results*..


Any time you fall off there's an element of luck involved. In the vast majority of crashes the clipless pedals will release immediately when they are setup correctly. You can hurt yourself equally as badly falling off when riding with flat pedals also.

Some of the biggest crashes that I've had have actually been as a result of my feet getting bounced out of the clipless pedal bindings on rough terrain, rather than from the pedals not releasing.

In high speed crashes your feet will usually come out of the clipless pedal binding straight away. It's only low speed or twisting crashes where your feet might end up still attached to the pedals. Low speed crashes with flat pedals are hardly hazard free, it's how you fall that matters. The metal pins embedded in flat pedals really hurt if you aren't wearing shin pads.

Have a look at what happens in the crash at 5:45 into this video to see how clipless pedals react in the event of a crash. Watch how the rider's feet disengage straight away from the clipless pedals upon impact. Road clipless pedals have higher release tensions than offroad clipless pedals so an offroad clipless pedal will unclip even more easily.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> So, it's "not about the shoes" tommyrod... what is it gonna be?


What does this mean, exactly?


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

electrik said:


> it can be done and has been done! Good luck!


Please provide me some data to back up this assertion.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

Electrik is afraid to use clipless pedals and tries to justify his fear by typing term papers about how cool platform pedals are.

Does he actually think that we are proposing that you can slap clipless pedals/shoes to a 500 lb rider and it will make him a pro?


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## p nut (Apr 19, 2007)

I can't believe this is still going. This is almost as bad as those 29er guys that think they can slap on some 23's and compete with proper road bikes. 

I'll tell you what, the day a platform wearing racer wins the WC, I'll gladly admit defeat. What would really make me shut up and eat crow is if a 29er with platforms wins the Tour.


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## markowe (Feb 1, 2007)

Lordy, I've been away from the forum a while (baby + busy training schedule = zero time) and I can't believe this troll, er, thread is still going! Good work! 

I'm trying to find that quote from Julien Absalon.

You know, the one where he says, "Zut alors! Le clipless, c'est pou pou ! Aa em raaading ze, 'ow you say, platforrrrrrms". I'll track it down soon!


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

p nut said:


> I can't believe this is still going. This is almost as bad as those 29er guys that think they can slap on some 23's and compete with proper road bikes. I'll tell you what, the day a platform wearing racer wins the WC, I'll gladly admit defeat. What would really make me shut up and eat crow is if a 29er with platforms wins the Tour.


Aerodynamics are a trend. Didn't you get that memo? It means nothing. Nothing I tell you! Don't drink the kool aid.


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## p nut (Apr 19, 2007)

That must've accidentally been thrown away along with the platform memo.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

_tom_ said:


> Please provide me some data to back up this assertion.


A couple people posted their results in this thread and they weren't dead last!! What a shock!


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I think it is clear who the fetishist is around here.


Yes, people who think it's about the pedals... is that you?


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> Posting studies as a direct response to requests for studies and statistical data?
> 
> Any time you fall off there's an element of luck involved. In the vast majority of crashes the clipless pedals will release immediately when they are setup correctly. You can hurt yourself equally as badly falling off when riding with flat pedals also.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but it's always going to be faster to remove your foot from a platform pedal. You'll also never have issues on platforms with "pulling" up too hard and unexpectedly flying off, I have seen this happen, it's ugly because usually the guy is trying to clear an obstacle. If you pedal in circles with no vector perpendicular to the ground(As you stated must be done to realize some clipless benefits) the rider is always going to have some issue with bicycle control.

I appreciate the studies and the time you took to post them. My problem with all those studies is they sort of lead to magical thinking, no study explained the actual mechanism of how clipless must improve power, but say an improvement was observed, somehow, therefore it must be the shoes?! It leaves me wondering even more if it's just about the rider and their technique.

p.s. guy in the blue campy is a ******!


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## shredchic (Jun 18, 2007)

lol, pedal choice threads crack me up....

never mind...


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## shredchic (Jun 18, 2007)

Never mind.

(thought I was in the XC forum, but I guess I accidentally posted in the ******bag forum...)


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

I think I am going to throw up. Seriously.


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## p nut (Apr 19, 2007)

I just unsubscribed.

EDIT: Crap


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## Robbieisbobert (Dec 22, 2007)

Let me just say that threads like this go to **** because y'all make them. Don't point fingers and actually answer the questions and stay on topic please.


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

electrik said:


> A couple people posted their results in this thread and they weren't dead last!! What a shock!


Were they first? Or even in the top 10?

Nobody ever said you'd be dead last racing flats. There will always be people you are faster than, regardless of what pedals you choose. But if you're racing guys the same ability as you, and you're on flats and they have an advantage riding clipless pedals, they'll beat you in an XC race.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

_tom_ said:


> Were they first? Or even in the top 10?


14th I think.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

Robbieisbobert said:


> Let me just say that threads like this go to **** because y'all make them. Don't point fingers and actually answer the questions and stay on topic please.


Well, the problem is threads like get to the point were it's impossible to take them seriously. I agree that childish name calling (or taking something as dumb as clipless vs platform pedals personally) and so forth is never called for, but playing with it and having fun in a good natured way is OK.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

_tom_ said:


> Nobody ever said you'd be dead last racing flats. There will always be people you are faster than, regardless of what pedals you choose. But if you're racing guys the same ability as you, and you're on flats and they have an advantage riding clipless pedals, they'll beat you in an XC race.


Sure, i'll be on the lookout for my clipless riding identical twin. For sure he'd be the winner everytime! :lol:

Glad you realize people can be competitive without clipless.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> Sure, i'll be on the lookout for my clipless riding identical twin. For sure he'd be the winner everytime! :lol:
> 
> Glad you realize people can be competitive without clipless.


You still don't understand, do you?

It's not that people couldn't be competitive riding flats.

It's that anyone good enough to BE competitive at a high level would be very, very unlikely to choose flats over clipless, because they would be handicappng themselves by doing so.

And while 14th place in a Cat 2 race is not necessarily dead last, it is also completely out of contention for the win, and therefore by definition NOT COMPETITIVE.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> You still don't understand, do you?
> 
> It's not that people couldn't be competitive riding flats.
> 
> ...


You say people *can*







competitive riding flats, but then anybody actually competitive on flats at a high level is basically uncompetitive because they're handicapped by a pedal. What a bunch of sand-baggers those competitive, but actually uncompetitive flat pedal riders are!

Sorry, but 14th place is good enough for a lot of people and it is not out of contention. If that is your attitude about racing, I can see why so angry.


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## lassiar (Nov 11, 2010)




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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Robbieisbobert said:


> If anyone really cares about my opinion at this point, I see that clipless may have merit, but clipless pedals do you no good when you can't ride because of them.
> 
> To highlight my point, I will tell you that I had been riding clipless before I began this thread. I made my first post to make this thread as subjective as possible. But, a week before I created this thread I ate it kinda hard whilst riding SPD's and Shimano pedals. I set my pedal tension such that I did not unclip when I did not usually want to but loose enough that I would unclip given time to do so. When I fell, one foot unclipped but the other did not, resulting in the frame of my bike impacting the side of my knee. I gave the system a try for about 2 weeks, and the same thing happened twice but in varying degrees. After my second crash, I spent a few weeks resting my knee because of what seemed like minor impact trauma.
> 
> As it stands right now, clipless has lost its merit as it kept me from riding due to injury when I would have come out fine from my crash on flats. Just something to consider...


This thread does actually raise some useful questions, even if the answers aren't what people want to hear.

I've been trying to see if there's any evidence that crashes where the rider is using clipless pedals (as opposed to crashes caused by being unable to unclip from clipless pedals) will result in additional knee injuries from the bindings not releasing during accidents, such as strained ligaments from the knee twisting when the pedal doesn't release. I haven't been able to find it though.

There's plenty about knee injuries with clipless pedals that have been caused by poor cleat alignment and overuse, but not knee injuries as a direct result of clipless pedals not releasing during crashes. In some situations it's sure to happen but direct knee injuries from crashing using clipless pedals (twisted knees, strained ligaments etc) don't appear to be a widespread problem.

In *Robbieisbobert*'s case the knee injury wasn't actually caused by the clipless pedals. It was caused by his knee banging the top tube. That sort of injury can (and does) happen just as easily with flat pedals if the bike stays nearby or lands on you as you fall. If you continue holding onto the handlebar grips as the bike goes down for example.

What I did manage to find was this review of cycling injuries that are believed to have been caused by clipless pedals. The injuries described weren't quite what I was expecting:

*Mountain Bike Injuries and Clipless Pedals: A Review of Three Cases*_
"Injuries sustained from off road biking accidents have been well described, most being skin abrasions and contusions. 2-4 With the high usage of helmets (80%), 4 serious head injuries are, fortunately, rare. Most injuries occur while going downhill, with the more severe occurring when the cyclist is thrown off the bike as opposed to falling on to the side. 5 6 Most bony injuries involve the upper limb, with the clavicle often being fractured.
...
Many cyclists use a clipless pedal system, which has been available since the mid to late 1980s for road cycles, and are now becoming more popular with off road bikes. To release the foot from the pedal, a twisting motion of the foot is needed. All the patients described not only had this type of pedal system fitted but they also struggled to release their feet in time when they lost control. As cyclists lose control, their natural response is to place their feet on the ground in an attempt to stop them toppling over. Late release of one or both of their feet can mean that they have insufficient time to keep their legs clear of the cycle. As the bike topples over to the left, the chain ring becomes more perpendicular to the cyclist (fig 1). In a desperate attempt to maintain balance, the cyclist forcibly places his foot on the ground, and the right leg then catches on the exposed teeth of the chain ring. The result is anything from simple abrasions to the more serious trauma described above. This can be made worse if the chain ring continues to turn, which may occur if the left foot remains stuck in its pedal. As none of the pedals had serrated surfaces, normally found on standard pedals to prevent normal footwear from slipping, it is unlikely that they contributed to the present injuries.

This type of injury is unusual, as major trauma caused specifically by the cycle is rare. It highlights, however, how important the tensioning mechanism on the pedal is. These pedals need to be correctly adjusted to facilitate the rapid release and adequate clearance of the lower limbs from the cycle. This would help to prevent such injuries from occurring. It is unlikely that these injuries would have occurred if the cyclists were unable to release their feet at all, as the position of the leg in relation to the chain ring would then be maintained. The mechanism of injury described would therefore have been avoided. However, as he falls over, the rider would now be at increased risk of sustaining other injuries such as femoral neck fractures"_ *Dr N D Patel*

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1724816/pdf/v038p00340.pdf

Clipless pedals are based on the same retention system as ski bindings. The importance of the binding safely unclipping in a crash is even more important skiing than when cycling. If the system was intrinsically unsafe then you have to assume that they wouldn't be used or allowed. This quote explains it quite well:

_"Downhill skiers have been using essentially the same system for over four decades and it works great for them. Imagine...tie a 5 foot lever to your foot and then expose your leg to horizontal and vertical forces against that lever while preventing any ankle movement. You better be sure that the binding works!"_ *Wind 'N Snow*

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/132613-Clipless-pedals-amp-accidents

Exactly the same important caveat applies to ski bindings as clipless pedals. They have to be properly adjusted. Once properly adjusted they will release safely and consistently in case of an accident.

http://ski.lovetoknow.com/Adjusting_Ski_Bindings

Pictured below: Ski bindings use the same retention system as clipless pedals. The importance of the binding releasing in a skiing accident is even greater than when cycling. If it doesn't then there is an extremely high chance of a knee injury.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> You say people *can*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No. I said that a strong rider could be competitive on flats as well, but a strong, competitive rider would never choose to intentionally limit his power transfer by using flats in a race. Kind of like how a great runner might still be fast with his shoes very loosely tied and flopping around, but would never do that on purpose in a race that counts. Please read more closely.

The 14th place finish you are referring to was 19 MINUTES off the winning time - in a race well under 2 hours.

That is competitive- with the guys racing for 13th and 15th places. Not even in the same zip code as the winning time.

Out of contention for the win. You might want to pick a better example.

And the racer who posted that went on to state that he raced flats at that time because he was inexperienced... and now races on clipless pedals! With better results!

Your reading comprehension is seriously jacked up, or you are purposely ignoring anything that doesn't agree with your "hypothesis". Or you are simply a troll, as so many others have postulated.


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## RubberSideDown34 (Apr 18, 2006)

Man, can you beleive Gadhafi???

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41775200/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

This man seriously needs to be taken out of power.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

Dear Electrik,

Get over your fear of clipless pedals and join the cult. 

Peace,
Ryd


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## _tom_ (Jun 18, 2005)

Robbieisbobert said:


> If anyone really cares about my opinion at this point, I see that clipless may have merit, but clipless pedals do you no good when you can't ride because of them.
> 
> To highlight my point, I will tell you that I had been riding clipless before I began this thread. I made my first post to make this thread as subjective as possible. But, a week before I created this thread I ate it kinda hard whilst riding SPD's and Shimano pedals. I set my pedal tension such that I did not unclip when I did not usually want to but loose enough that I would unclip given time to do so. When I fell, one foot unclipped but the other did not, resulting in the frame of my bike impacting the side of my knee. I gave the system a try for about 2 weeks, and the same thing happened twice but in varying degrees. After my second crash, I spent a few weeks resting my knee because of what seemed like minor impact trauma.
> 
> As it stands right now, clipless has lost its merit as it kept me from riding due to injury when I would have come out fine from my crash on flats. Just something to consider...


Have you tried the Shimano "multi release" cleats? They're a lot easier to unclip with.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

WR304 said:


> In *Robbieisbobert*'s case the knee injury wasn't actually caused by the clipless pedals. It was caused by his knee banging the top tube. That sort of injury can (and does) happen just as easily with flat pedals if the bike stays nearby or lands on you as you fall. If you continue holding onto the handlebar grips as the bike goes down for example.


Here are some pictures demonstrating that crashing using flat pedals doesn't automatically mean that the bike won't hit you as you fall. There's a large element of luck involved.

Unless you try jumping over the Great Wall of China like Wang Jiaxiong did in 2002. In that case letting go of the bike was fatal.:eekster:

http://www.thebikebook.com/pictures4.html


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

WR304 said:


> Here are some pictures demonstrating that crashing using flat pedals doesn't automatically mean that the bike won't hit you as you fall. There's a large element of luck involved.
> 
> Unless you try jumping over the Great Wall of China like Wang Jiaxiong did in 2002. In that case letting go of the bike was fatal.:eekster:
> 
> http://www.thebikebook.com/pictures4.html


Yeh, but the guy with the umbrella would have lost 12 teeth instead of 11 if he was using clipless pedals. Oh..and 2 + 2 is 5. It is not 4.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

rydbyk said:


> Yeh, but the guy with the umbrella would have lost 12 teeth instead of 11 if he was using clipless pedals. Oh..and 2 + 2 is 5. It is not 4.


I was reading some of the other stories from that book. Cycling's dangerous regardless of your pedal choice. :eekster:

http://www.thebikebook.com/index.html

_"Cycling's Greatest Misadventures presents twenty-seven true stories which cross the spectrum from terrifying to comical to downright bizarre. In these pages both everyday riders and pros tell their stories of freak accidents, animal attacks, sabotage, idiotic decisions, eerie or unexplained incidents, and other jaw dropping, adrenalin-pumping calamities. These stories bring to life the strange possibilities that await us once we step on the pedals of our road, mountain, or commuter bikes.

A sampling of misadventures in this collection include the stories of:

• A mountain biker who follows a bull and then gets gored by it
• Twenty Buffalo Soldiers who completed a TransAmerica ride in 1897
• A large rat that jumps on a woman's bike and tail slaps her repeatedly
• A pro cyclist's brutal race that ends with him naked and horrified
• A recreational cyclist who accidentally rides deep into a prison yard
• A dude who crashes a stationary bike in his first spin class
• A bike messenger who gets hit by nine cars
• A man who spreads tacks on a womens' race course as a ploy to get a date" _

I wonder if the woman who was repeatedly tail slapped by the large rat was using clipless pedals or flat pedals at the time?


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## Robbieisbobert (Dec 22, 2007)

_tom_ said:


> Have you tried the Shimano "multi release" cleats? They're a lot easier to unclip with.


I have not. I hear they could accidentally unclip if vertical force is applied. Does anyone have any experience with this type of cleat?


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## fux (Oct 21, 2006)

I bought them by accident a few years back and they are leathal.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Robbieisbobert said:


> I have not. I hear they could accidentally unclip if vertical force is applied. Does anyone have any experience with this type of cleat?


I tried the Shimano SM-SH56 multi release cleats a few years ago. They didn't work very well for me. You could unclip easily with the SM-SH56 multi release cleats but it wasn't consistent. I kept finding that they would unclip unexpectedly at times when you really didn't want them to - whilst trying to accelerate across a busy roundabout for example.

The Shimano SM-SH51 single release cleats where you have to twist the foot to unclip are more predictable. If you loosen the pedal release tension off completely then you can practice clipping into and unclipping from SPD pedals with hardly any effort which is good for learning with - if you panic the cleat will unclip easily. As you get more confident riding with them you can gradually increase the release tension to make them more secure.

If a SPD cleat doesn't unclip easily on the lowest release tension then the bolts holding the cleat to the shoe may be loose, or the shoe tread may be catching when the pedal twists upon release. You sometimes have to trim away parts of the shoe sole with a stanley knife if they interfere with the action of the pedal binding and stop the pedal unclipping.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

Stumbled across some clipless fail. :lol:

http://www.pinkbike.com/v/177232


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> This thread does actually raise some useful questions, even if the answers aren't what people want to hear.
> 
> I've been trying to see if there's any evidence that crashes where the rider is using clipless pedals (as opposed to crashes caused by being unable to unclip from clipless pedals) will result in additional knee injuries from the bindings not releasing during accidents, such as strained ligaments from the knee twisting when the pedal doesn't release. I haven't been able to find it though.
> 
> ...


Yeah and having done a fair amount of skiing also, i can tell you sometimes those bindings don't immediately release(depending on angle of incident) and you're in deep **** or they release too eagerly and you're in deep ****. The same thing happens with clips, they _usually_ release, but sometimes they don't and sometimes they release by surprise. Properly adjusted is a "fine-print" clause, because you're always adjusting the tension since no universal setting is appropriate for every situation or incident!


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> Dear Electrik,
> 
> Get over your fear of clipless pedals and join the cult.
> 
> ...


Thanks Ryd,here is a well written essay for you to read. Even Wade Simmons can appreciate diversity in our sport, though he goes on about clipless being superior also and pressured his friend into wearing them and the poor guy ended up on a 29r riding gravel paths... :/

Peace


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> No. I said that a strong rider could be competitive on flats as well, but a strong, competitive rider would never choose to intentionally limit his power transfer by using flats in a race. Kind of like how a great runner might still be fast with his shoes very loosely tied and flopping around, but would never do that on purpose in a race that counts. Please read more closely.
> 
> The 14th place finish you are referring to was 19 MINUTES off the winning time - in a race well under 2 hours.
> 
> ...


tommyrod, you asked for an example, I told you, what does it matter if he switched or didn't?

Your opinion that 14th is for losers and that one should give up and be more like tommyrod, coincidently the largest rod in the thread, smells to high heaven just like your troll bait style insults.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

*When does the madness stop?*



electrik said:


> Thanks Ryd,here is a well written essay for you to read. Even Wade Simmons can appreciate diversity in our sport, though he goes on about clipless being superior also and pressured his friend into wearing them and the poor guy ended up on a 29r riding gravel paths... :/
> 
> Peace


When Wade refers to diversity, he is talking about BMX, CX, XC, DH etc. He then goes on to hint that riding flats is silly. Yeh, sounds like he forced his buddy to wear clipless and start riding a 29er. Koo koo..

"Another young rider I ride tons with is Arthur, who's a French import with commendable DH skills and who had a love affair with the flat pedal. There was a time not long ago on our all-mountain rides that I'd mock him endlessly, hammering home the fact that being clipped-in would be beneficial: he never listened. Now, only riding a 29er he says, "I'll never ride 26 again", and he only rides clipped-in."

FWIW, I raced BMX bikes as a kid, raced road, raced mtb, toured for over a month in Europe at age 17, had the first "real" SS (Bianchi BOSS) that I ever saw in San Diego and purchased one of NINER's very first frames available in the US. So...yeh, I get it. Platform pedals for XC racing vs. clipless? Nah.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> When Wade refers to diversity, he is talking about BMX, CX, XC, DH etc. He then goes on to hint that riding flats is silly. Yeh, sounds like he forced his buddy to wear clipless and start riding a 29er. Koo koo..
> 
> "Another young rider I ride tons with is Arthur, who's a French import with commendable DH skills and who had a love affair with the flat pedal. There was a time not long ago on our all-mountain rides that I'd mock him endlessly, hammering home the fact that being clipped-in would be beneficial: he never listened. Now, only riding a 29er he says, "I'll never ride 26 again", and he only rides clipped-in."
> 
> FWIW, I raced BMX bikes as a kid, raced road, raced mtb, toured for over a month in Europe at age 17, had the first "real" SS (Bianchi BOSS) that I ever saw in San Diego and purchased one of NINER's very first frames available in the US. So...yeh, I get it. Platform pedals for XC racing vs. clipless? Nah.


Not my take, obviously, if that is what Wade is saying then he is being an out-right hypocrite to encourage diversity, but then slam somebody else for doing something differently. Though the fact he felt smrt enough to endlessly mock his friend probably says something, too bad we can't ask his friend how he felt about that. Glad you pointed that out...


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> Stumbled across some clipless fail. :lol:
> 
> http://www.pinkbike.com/v/177232


I saw this happen many, many times back in the day with flat pedals. BMX starting gate fail, not pedal fail.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

*Umm...*

Here, I will post it again....

What Wade says:

"Another young rider I ride tons with is Arthur, who's a French import with commendable DH skills and who had a love affair with the flat pedal. There was a time not long ago on our all-mountain rides that I'd mock him endlessly, hammering home the fact that being clipped-in would be beneficial: he never listened. Now, only riding a 29er he says, "I'll never ride 26 again", and he only rides clipped-in."

My work is done here folks. Ciao!


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

electrik said:


> tommyrod, you asked for an example, I told you, what does it matter if he switched or didn't?
> 
> Your opinion that 14th is for losers and that one should give up and be more like tommyrod, coincidently the largest rod in the thread, smells to high heaven just like your troll bait style insults.


I would never say that 14th place is for losers. I would certainly say that most people reading this forum (and therefore interested in XC racing) would say that their target is a little higher than that.

If the goal is just to finish, then why pay an entry fee and ziptie a number to your bars? If the goal isn't winning, then why do they call it racing?

I would submit that everyone here would like to win races. The poster who came in 14th that day was certainly proud of the fact that he now places much higher, as he should be - it likely took a lot of work. 14th was a starting point for him, as he improved he likely made a few equipment changes to optimize his bike for XC racing. One of these was a move to clipless pedals.

Did you really come to a forum on XC racing and expect people to not care about placing as well as they could?

I apologize if I have been combative on this thread. I guess it got under my skin because this is something the racing community came to a consensus on many, many years ago and it seems like a waste of time to revisit it.

I do completely agree that flats are great for learning riders, also useful in highly technical terrain, and fun to ride. They just aren't the best choice for XC racing.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> I saw this happen many, many times back in the day with flat pedals. BMX starting gate fail, not pedal fail.


Yeah, you're right... still hilarious though!


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> I would never say that 14th place is for losers. I would certainly say that most people reading this forum (and therefore interested in XC racing) would say that their target is a little higher than that.
> 
> If the goal is just to finish, then why pay an entry fee and ziptie a number to your bars? If the goal isn't winning, then why do they call it racing?
> 
> ...


Yup, everybody wants the podium, but the reality is most people won't get it... such is how it goes, which is why i think it even more possible to reevaluate what you're doing and how much effort you've put out.. to me visiting the clipless are superior can be part of that re-evaluation, particularly if you're having an issue surrounding it. Following your intuition is important here, despite my insistence on studies... if you are really feeling the clips, go for it, but you should also have the ability to drop them when you just don't feel them.

As an aside... Sometimes the attitude of "just to finish" is important, perhaps the most important part of racing. Quitting is worse than last place. Everybody is going to suck when they start, it is only through accepting where you are and not throwing the towel in that you can asses your poisition. That is basically why i think 14th is a good placing, not the best, but it's good. What is the popular quote - Never forget your beginners attitude(?)


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

electrik said:


> Yeah and having done a fair amount of skiing also, i can tell you sometimes those bindings don't immediately release(depending on angle of incident) and you're in deep **** or they release too eagerly and you're in deep ****. The same thing happens with clips, they _usually_ release, but sometimes they don't and sometimes they release by surprise. Properly adjusted is a "fine-print" clause, because you're always adjusting the tension since no universal setting is appropriate for every situation or incident!


Any statement about safety in sport has to include a "fine print" clause. Many years ago I met a rider who had just started out riding with the mountain bike club. He claimed never to have fallen off a bike. Ever. Then he promptly fell off.

Mountain biking is a sport which always involves some risk. The amount you fall off depends upon how you manage that risk. Properly adjusted clipless pedals are usually predictable and consistent in when they will release. To say that you'll never fall off and hurt yourself using clipless pedals is untrue, but you can minimise the risks through practice and anticipating when you'll need to unclip in advance.

To say that if you use flat pedals then you'll never fall off and hurt yourself is also untrue. Any discussion of the relative safety benefits of flat pedals over clipless pedals has to include a detailed "fine print" clause for flat pedals as well. As an experienced flat pedal user shouldn't you be emphasising the importance of wearing shin pads throughout this thread, along with explaining how to use proper technique in order to keep your feet on the pedals when the bike is airborne?

Using clipless pedals is a learned skill. The more you use them the better you get. It's not a coincidence that most clipless pedal related falls happen in the first few weeks/ months of beginning to use them. After that the frequency falls off dramatically.

There are a few situations where clipless falls often occur. With experience you can identify these danger areas in advance and be prepared. It's better to unclip then stop, rather than stop and then try to unclip. When starting to ride with clipless pedals you have to be realistic about knowing your limits, and what you can and can't do safely whilst clipped into the pedals.

The most common type of clipless fall involves being unable to unclip at low speeds. If you're just starting out and are unhappy about a low speed section then having one foot unclipped on top of the pedal means you can get it down quickly. It may not look "cool" but it will avoid a fall. Doing things such as track stands, wheelies and back hops are other areas where not being clipped in is much safer until you're fully confident in your riding skills. Having a larger clipless pedal and grippy rubber on the midsole of the cycling shoe make this possible and a viable option.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7735168&postcount=66

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7737645&postcount=74

Another common type of clipless fall is where you're climbing a very steep hill but run out of momentum. This can be a dangerous situation. One moment you're riding along, and then the next thing you know you've toppled over sideways whilst still clipped in. It's difficult to avoid this sometimes, about all you can do is look at what you're riding up and try to estimate from past experience whether you will make it or not. If you're not going to make it then unclip one foot in preparation or stop earlier whilst you still have enough speed to get one foot to the bottom of the pedal stroke in order to unclip.

For mountain biking it's worth practicing clipping and unclipping both left and right pedals. A good drill to work on is cyclocross mounts and dismounts where you unclip, hop off the bike, run, hop back onto the bike, begin pedalling clipped out and then clip each foot in. 2min into this video up the flight of steps is a good example.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Would you blame your derailer for shifting the chain on the bottom bracket causing the rider to slip and crash? *

The source of the failure is that the component is out of adjustment, not that the component is flawed and can lead to injury.

*(Well, actually some do and simply go to1x9 )


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## Robbieisbobert (Dec 22, 2007)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Would you blame your derailer for shifting the chain on the bottom bracket causing the rider to slip and crash? *
> 
> The source of the failure is that the component is out of adjustment, not that the component is flawed and can lead to injury.
> 
> *(Well, actually some do and simply go to1x9 )


I would argue that the component is fundamentally flawed. I adjusted my pedals to be tensioned enough to keep my feet from accidentally unclipping in rough sections, yet they kept my feet in place whilst crashing. If that is not a flaw, I don't know what is...


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Robbieisbobert said:


> I would argue that the component is fundamentally flawed. I adjusted my pedals to be tensioned enough to keep my feet from accidentally unclipping in rough sections, yet they kept my feet in place whilst crashing. If that is not a flaw, I don't know what is...


It's amazing that despite riding clipless pedals since 1991, I haven't discovered this fundamental flaw myself.

Face it, you had bad luck. It sucks, but your experience is definitely the exception, not the rule.

Is it possible that you made the jump to clipless before you had developed adequate handling skills? I ask because I don't know, and because I wouldn't recommend most riders to begin riding off-road on clipless from day one (unless they were used to road clipless systems already, or had bike handling skills from BMX or some other discipline).


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Well then....*



Robbieisbobert said:


> I would argue that the component is fundamentally flawed. I adjusted my pedals to be tensioned enough to keep my feet from accidentally unclipping in rough sections, yet they kept my feet in place whilst crashing. If that is not a flaw, I don't know what is...


Once we assume that you adjusted them perfectly in the face of all of the experience of the other people who have somehow managed to have them release properly we can only assume that this event was caused by evil spirits.

There is however another perspective and I refer to the classic film Lawrence of Arabia. Lawrence had saved a man from certain death in the Sun's Anvil during what was thought to be an impossible crossing of that desert. Having completed the crossing with all of his men Lawrence chose to go back into the desert to save this man who had passed out from the heat, falling off of his camel, and bring him out saving his life. This same man shot a man from another tribe during a game of cards when he was accused of cheating. Lawrence had to execute him to avoid a bloodbath between tribes which he needed to work together to attack Aqaba. Auda Abu Tayi, upon hearing of this peculiar nexus simply said, "it must have been written."


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

Robbieisbobert said:


> I would argue that the component is fundamentally flawed. I adjusted my pedals to be tensioned enough to keep my feet from accidentally unclipping in rough sections, yet they kept my feet in place whilst crashing. If that is not a flaw, I don't know what is...


What are you going to do when your frame cracks? Quit cycling? I mean...according to your logic, you will have to give up on frames all together right?


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## lassiar (Nov 11, 2010)

tommyrod74 said:


> Is it possible that you made the jump to clipless before you had developed adequate handling skills? I ask because I don't know, and because I wouldn't recommend most riders to begin riding off-road on clipless from day one (unless they were used to road clipless systems already, or had bike handling skills from BMX or some other discipline).


I hate this thread. I really do, but it keeps sucking me back for trololols and spam. Okay, ONE exception was the novel cleat positioning system WR304 referenced. If it's genuine and improves ergonomics/kinetics, then I'd definitely guinea up for it. Otherwise WR304 is a tad autistic, or maybe a bit Welsh (I hear you can't take the p_i_s_s out of a Welshman). 

And you Tommy - you get your tail pulled when you come in here and seem to maybe like it just a little bit. Anyway, to respond to what I quoted (and this is the only time I'll take this thread seriously), I did what you won't recommend. No experience with clipless - first pedals were spds, and Shimano custom fit race shoes. I ate some s_h_i_t my very first ride - sure the clipless pedals didn't help prevent the fall. Did I quit? No - I got up, ate some more later, and pretty soon there wasn't much around to eat.

I think the problem newbs have with clipless is PANIC. When it's panic time, it's instinct time. There aren't any human beings with an instinct for cycling because it requires a rapid evolutionary adaptation of human locomotion. Our ancestors gave us no genetic precedent for sitting down while simultaneously moving, balancing......oh, AND being strapped in. It's an all out assault on the baser instincts that take over when a person panics. So what usually happens is they completely block out the knowledge of how to release the shoes and just lift their legs straight up, or worse - induce what I call a panic guided fall, because even the (unnatural) balance lessons get overwhelmed.

_Fear is the mind killer._


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

lassiar said:


> And you Tommy - you get your tail pulled when you come in here and seem to maybe like it just a little bit. Anyway, to respond to what I quoted (and this is the only time I'll take this thread seriously), I did what you won't recommend. No experience with clipless - first pedals were spds, and Shimano custom fit race shoes. I ate some s_h_i_t my very first ride - sure the clipless pedals didn't help prevent the fall. Did I quit? No - I got up, ate some more later, and pretty soon there wasn't much around to eat.
> 
> I think the problem newbs have with clipless is PANIC. When it's panic time, it's instinct time. There aren't any human beings with an instinct for cycling because it requires a rapid evolutionary adaptation of human locomotion. Our ancestors gave us no genetic precedent for sitting down while simultaneously moving, balancing......oh, AND being strapped in. It's an all out assault on the baser instincts that take over when a person panics. So what usually happens is they completely block out the knowledge of how to release the shoes and just lift their legs straight up, or worse - induce what I call a panic guided fall, because even the (unnatural) balance lessons get overwhelmed.
> 
> _Fear is the mind killer._


I actually have no problem with that.

I don't recommend it to customers (I work part time at a shop) who are just starting out riding trails because it's hard for some people to learn to handle a bike on dirt while simultaneously worrying about getting out of their new clipless pedals. But if they want to try it right off, I just help them set them up and practice a bit in the parking lot before they leave.

Some folks don't deal well with falling down hard as beginners. You could probably argue that this makes them unlikely candidates for enjoying MTB, and I'd probably agree. I still try to minimize it with customers where possible.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> Any statement about safety in sport has to include a "fine print" clause. Many years ago I met a rider who had just started out riding with the mountain bike club. He claimed never to have fallen off a bike. Ever. Then he promptly fell off.
> 
> Mountain biking is a sport which always involves some risk. The amount you fall off depends upon how you manage that risk. Properly adjusted clipless pedals are usually predictable and consistent in when they will release. To say that you'll never fall off and hurt yourself using clipless pedals is untrue, but you can minimise the risks through practice and anticipating when you'll need to unclip in advance.
> 
> ...


Haha, well that is how it goes... pride before the fall. I think years of soccer toughened up the shins a bit, i don't wear pads and i now have an automatic reaction if i don't put my foot on the pedal properly. I've never broken anything by shinning myself, but it does hurt. Saying that, i think stalling out in clips is very dangerous and i'd rather shin myself. Just two weeks ago my friend was riding a 10-15ft steep bowl section(think sidewinder) and stalled out(there was snow) on a hill you'd have trouble walking up... he tumbled over backwards(luckily clearing some dead-fall on the hill face) and his bicycle landed on him to add insult. That loss of control could have easily been very serious. It's not just that technical terrain though, I have also been in the XC singletrack conga line going uphill when somebody stalls out ahead and everybody starts trying to immediately clip out/in and start again. That can get ugly, particularly when there is PI lurking in the bushes!

I never understood why not flats for cyclocross, i guess that is it's roadie roots showing up.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

electrik said:


> I never understood why not flats for cyclocross, i guess that is it's roadie roots showing up.


Because clips are faster than flats. Are you still not getting this or do you enjoy being a ignorant sod?


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

marzjennings said:


> Because clips are faster than flats. Are you still not getting this or do you enjoy being a ignorant sod?


Sorry Mr. Jennings, nothing you are saying is coming through.






Nice, but, how do clipless shoes make him faster? Couldn't he do it just as quickly on flats?


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

electrik said:


> Sorry Mr. Jennings, nothing you are saying is coming through.


Fair enough, naming calling is always a sign of desperation in an argument.



electrik said:


> Nice, but, how do clipless shoes make him faster? Couldn't he do it just as quickly on flats?


Great wee video and some great examples of a smooth circular pedaling stroke. Just in the first couple of seconds as he climbs on the road you can see he's pulling back and up on the pedals before pushing through and down with each stroke. Something he couldn't do with flats and would mean slightly less effort being applied through each pedal stroke. How much less? That's really hard to say, but less and therefore slower.

You have hip flexors and hamstrings which can help put more power through a pedaling stroke, but only if you can pull through clipless pedals.

Another example from a different sport, do you think rowers could be as fast as they are if they couldn't pull the seat back to position before the next stroke. Do you think not having their feet attached to the board would benefit someone sculling? Same muscle groups that pull a rower back to ready position can be used to pull up on a pedal and allow for more effort (power) be injected into each pedal stroke, leading to more speed. Again, impossible with flats.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

marzjennings said:


> Fair enough, naming calling is always a sign of desperation in an argument.
> 
> Great wee video and some great examples of a smooth circular pedaling stroke. Just in the first couple of seconds as he climbs on the road you can see he's pulling back and up on the pedals before pushing through and down with each stroke. Something he couldn't do with flats and would mean slightly less effort being applied through each pedal stroke. *How much less? That's really hard to say, but less and therefore slower.*
> 
> ...


On the road sure... but offroad?

Indeed it is really hard to say. In general you're walking a thin line to call the pedals as key, even in that one example it's not clear. IMO, the more technical a course and less "road like" it becomes, the more and possible power differences between flats and clipless should disappear. This is probably because lots of other powerful factors, which are probably never the same for each person, combine to make the rider fast and confidence or ruin them.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

electrik said:


> On the road sure... but offroad?
> 
> Indeed it is really hard to say. In general you're walking a thin line to call the pedals as key, even in that one example it's not clear. IMO, the more technical a course and less "road like" it becomes, the more and possible power differences between flats and clipless should disappear. This is probably because lots of other powerful factors, which are probably never the same for each person, combine to make the rider fast and confidence or ruin them.


Not as key, just one of the keys to going faster, way after the rider, their fitness, strength and skill, the frame, wheels, tyres, forks and even brakes. But a positive difference they can make, once a rider has become used to them. And I've found them a positive benefit on smooth and very technical trails, but then again I've been using them for over 10 years.

For example on loose climbs, where mashing with flats could lead to the rear tyre slipping, being able to smoothly deliver power throughout the entire pedaling cycle can keeps things going faster.

But you have a point, those who expect instant improvements and greatly increased race times the day after they fit spds will be disappointed and may have their confidence ruined.


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## Paladin54 (Nov 18, 2010)

Stick with your flats. If you are keeping up with the others on the team and not more tired then you're good. If you aren't keeping up then try clips and see if you keep up.


That's about as scientific a study you will need.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

*Electrik..*

Don't be so insecure about your pedal choice. You will stop at nothing to get approval from us. It is OK that you choose flats over clipless...really.

Do what you want. When you get more experience, you may decide that clipless pedals are what you need/want. If you are unable to ride with confidence with clipless because you are constantly dreading a crash, then where is the fun in that? Continue with the flats if it keeps you riding...


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## flargle (Apr 15, 2009)

Happened to think about this on the trail this morning, and I don't know if it was ever brought up:

According to the studies, having a "circular" pedalstroke apparently doesn't make any difference on the road at steady-state, so flat pedals may very well work just as well as clips in that situation.

This is almost surely _not_ the case on a bike susceptible to pedal bob, i.e. every mountain bike (even a fully rigid bike with fat tires).


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## markowe (Feb 1, 2007)

flargle said:


> Happened to think about this on the trail this morning, and I don't know if it was ever brought up:
> 
> According to the studies, having a "circular" pedalstroke apparently doesn't make any difference on the road at steady-state, so flat pedals may very well work just as well as clips in that situation.
> 
> This is almost surely _not_ the case on a bike susceptible to pedal bob, i.e. every mountain bike (even a fully rigid bike with fat tires).


You might be right - I've never seen the 'circular pedalling' advantage as the main benefit of riding clipless in MTB, but it can't be totally negligible...

TBH, to me it's more about stability, safety and control. Basically, your feet aren't moving around on the pedals, wasting energy. Also, you are in less danger of your feet slipping off at the wrong moment, like when you are grinding up a hill, or on a gnarly descent. Goes against what non-clipless riders (do they really exist? ) fear about riding clipless - that it's MORE dangerous.

But it could be more efficient too - i.e. a greater advantage than in road riding - though maybe not so much because of the pedalling action, but because of a consistent foot position. *shrug* Any firm data on that out there?


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## jason745 (Apr 13, 2007)

Wow. Digging up an old thread here, but I've got pretty much the opposite question. After riding and racing XC for about 18 years, I'm only recently discovering the experience of AM/DH shuttle riding. For a long time, I had my nose up in the air with regard to "earning your turn," but there's a place for all disciplines of riding. Now, I've never been one to shy away from technical singletrack, but riding the big bike over and over with the aid of the shuttle has only made my ability to descend that much keener. 

So, after having been on clipless pedals exclusively for almost two decades (I started when I was 15 on onZa H.O.'s and Airwalk shoes, if there's anyone here old enough to remember those), I'm wondering if there's any merit in re-learning how to ride platforms for the DH bike. Just like the learning curve I remember back in the day going from toe-clips to clipless, I'm sorta' feeling the same experience trying to deal with platforms. 

Maybe I lost some basic BMX-style skills along the way. But, basically, I'm not having problems getting out of the clips if I have to bail or thow a leg out on a turn; I'm just getting bounced off of the platforms all of the time. Is it worth it to stick it out and re-learn platforms?


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

jason745 said:


> Wow. Digging up an old thread here, but I've got pretty much the opposite question. After riding and racing XC for about 18 years, I'm only recently discovering the experience of AM/DH shuttle riding. For a long time, I had my nose up in the air with regard to "earning your turn," but there's a place for all disciplines of riding. Now, I've never been one to shy away from technical singletrack, but riding the big bike over and over with the aid of the shuttle has only made my ability to descend that much keener.
> 
> So, after having been on clipless pedals exclusively for almost two decades (I started when I was 15 on onZa H.O.'s and Airwalk shoes, if there's anyone here old enough to remember those), I'm wondering if there's any merit in re-learning how to ride platforms for the DH bike. Just like the learning curve I remember back in the day going from toe-clips to clipless, I'm sorta' feeling the same experience trying to deal with platforms.
> 
> Maybe I lost some basic BMX-style skills along the way. But, basically, I'm not having problems getting out of the clips if I have to bail or thow a leg out on a turn; I'm just getting bounced off of the platforms all of the time. Is it worth it to stick it out and re-learn platforms?


There's a good reason why platforms are making a come back, it's 5.10 shoes they are grippy. I think it's a good idea to give one a try. I've been riding both for the last 6-8 months and I like it. I could not tell you which one is more efficient, it's not what I thought it would be.

When I switch back to clipless I enjoy the simplicity of the pedal, one less thing to think about. Platforms do encourage me to try different approach on the trail up or down. I became a better rider using both type of pedals.:thumbsup:


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

jason745 said:


> Wow. Digging up an old thread here, but I've got pretty much the opposite question. After riding and racing XC for about 18 years, I'm only recently discovering the experience of AM/DH shuttle riding. For a long time, I had my nose up in the air with regard to "earning your turn," but there's a place for all disciplines of riding. Now, I've never been one to shy away from technical singletrack, but riding the big bike over and over with the aid of the shuttle has only made my ability to descend that much keener.
> 
> So, after having been on clipless pedals exclusively for almost two decades (I started when I was 15 on onZa H.O.'s and Airwalk shoes, if there's anyone here old enough to remember those), I'm wondering if there's any merit in re-learning how to ride platforms for the DH bike. Just like the learning curve I remember back in the day going from toe-clips to clipless, I'm sorta' feeling the same experience trying to deal with platforms.
> 
> Maybe I lost some basic BMX-style skills along the way. But, basically, I'm not having problems getting out of the clips if I have to bail or thow a leg out on a turn; I'm just getting bounced off of the platforms all of the time. Is it worth it to stick it out and re-learn platforms?


The OP was discussing the use of platforms for XC racing.


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## wrcRS (Nov 14, 2010)

I went to clipless for my XC bike and haven't looked back. Of course I fell quite a bit, I got back up and tried again. LOL

My AM bike on the other hand, I wouldn't feel too comfortable clipped in. I still run platforms on that bike. I would like to try some 510's still as well.


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## pattongb (Jun 5, 2011)

electrik said:


> If the pros all had the same hair-cut i'd bet you would goto your barber and ask for one also without thinking it through... FYI it's not the haircut or the pedals, but whatever floats your boat!
> 
> Some xc races i've done on flats i've have no problem finishing top quarter. I don't think it's a defining issue for anybody on this thread... at least i don't seen anybody coming forward saying they lost positions because they rode platforms. You?


^^^ This guys a troll.

Dont feed the troll.


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

*Double sided pedals saved my life!*

I just finished the hardest race of my life.The fools gold 50. My legs fully cramped up on the clip side but I was able to spin my wellgo wam d 10 to the platform side and pedal with the pedal under the arch of my foot rather than the ball of my foot. Allowed me to finish and let my legs rest between different foot placements. :thumbsup: Cramped up solid three times but finished because of platform side. If I had ball of foot only I would have dnfed. I feel more power under arch of foot and there was a thread about having spd cleat under the arch of the foot. I just haven't done that yet.


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## TurnerRick (Jul 27, 2011)

The learning curve for platforms and 5.10's is that you aren't going to slide your foot around on the pedal, you have to lift your foot. Like Bam said, there are times I move my foot position around for different terrain and that is something you can't do clipped in. I ride everything, races, day rides, fun rides on flats and 5.10's and they are alot better to walk around in when you have to hike a bike section. I get flak all the time about racing in flats but it is my choice and I don't ride for anyone else but me.....


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## Khai (Dec 8, 2006)

For XC racing I can't imagine not riding clipless. Having cut my teeth on rat traps with cages, I never really understood the appeal of platforms at all until I was recently in Whistler and "rode" some of the insane stuff they have on tap. I see the appeal now, but I'm not convinced I'd prefer to be less connected. Maybe if I was into jumping and there was a chance that I might *want* to separate from my bike mid air...


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