# Carbon DH frame DIY build thread



## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

*Carbon DH frame DIY build thread (updated with pics)*

As promised, a thread about my little DIY DH frame project.

A few pics, showing the mold parts, the jig, and the foam core of the main frame.

This shows the first of 3 builds. Each to be slightly different in suspension design.

The other 2 foam cores are also ready to go.

The fiber and the epoxy arrived a couple of days ago, so when my job allows, time will be spent on this.

Magura


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## marks_bike (Aug 22, 2006)

very cool!


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

HI!

Can you put the BOM of this project? (is that Rohacell IG?)
The U part (with 3 holes) is it for Shockmount?
Are you going to use Aluminium insert for BB/Main bearing/Headset?
Also, I don't know if you are aware, but this guys over here www-8020.net (don't mind publicity! I don´t work for THEM nor I do have Comission!), but nice JIGs can be made out of it.

*GREAT WORK - in portuguese: "EXCELENTE TRABALHO!"*

PS: don't get me wrong, but it's a bit IBISish!  I would like to have some time at work to do something in those lines!...


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Tkul said:


> HI!
> 
> Can you put the BOM of this project? (is that Rohacell IG?)
> The U part (with 3 holes) is it for Shockmount?
> ...


The BOM for the front triangle would be along these lines:

A few kg worth of PTFE for the mold parts.
A block of PS foam (Rohacell has too many disadvantages, though it sure is stronger).
Approx. 6m2 300g/m2 unidirectional carbon
1m2 woven 160g/m2 carbon
1m2 465g/m2 ballistic woven Kevlar
Approx. 100m 3K carbon rowing
A 7075T6 linkage mount
Approx. 2.5kg of epoxy

The U-part is for the linkage plate pivot.

All the bearings will be mounted directly in the carbon.

Yeah, the 8020 system is good for jigs, but I prefer to have a flat surface as a reference point, as this is a bit more complicated than just setting up tubes in the right positions. 
By using a plate, I have my zero in close vicinity at most points.
I did though consider something like the 8020 system in the beginning, but couldn't think my way out of the lack of a reference plane in the setup phase.

I just took a look at the Ibis, and sure you're right, the front half looks a bit like the Mojo. 
It will however not bear much of a resemblance once the fiber has been added.

Magura 

EDIT:

What are you doing for a living, since you have such possibilities?


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## j_raquet (Nov 28, 2010)

Looks like a great project! I cant wait to see it progress.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

j_raquet said:


> Looks like a great project! I cant wait to see it progress.


Well, I hope to have the first front end ready within 2 weeks. The linkage and the rear will take another couple of weeks I suppose (if work permits spending the time).

Magura


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

Way cool, subscribed. I want to build a full suss fat bike before summer is out. This will be inspiring!


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

So, a quick rundown of the details.

The bottom bracket is the dimensions of a Shimano external type, but all of it is internal, so the bottom bracket is pretty wide. Like 105mm as I recall. 
All bearings are to be glued directly in the frame, so no alloy bearing cups. 
I aim for around 4 to 4.5kg for the frame without rear shock.
Adjustable head angle, BB height, suspension compression curve, chain-stay length, and so forth by a few different rear ends.


My target for this frame, is to make a hard wearing, versatile, and stiff DH frame.
It is also my intentions to keep the man hours down, in order to be able to make a few for experiments.
As I wrote initially, the first batch consists of 3 frames, but I expect to make a few a year in the future.
Having said that, I guess I better point out that they are not for sale, before I get the usual lecture about that "I" am a company or manufacturer or whatever the clown in question can wring from his imagination  
I do this for fun and education, and that's it!
That it's posted here, is to inspire others to take on a project like this themselves (and due to a few requests).


Magura


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Thank you for sharing this project.

Are you making molds out of fiberglass to layup the carbon?

What is your layup schedule going to be?


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

shirk said:


> Thank you for sharing this project.
> 
> Are you making molds out of fiberglass to layup the carbon?
> 
> What is your layup schedule going to be?


I am going to make them moldless, using the foam core as positive mold. Hence the setup in the photos, as I need to keep everything in position till the fiber is applied and the vacuum is up.

What is a layup schedule? You'll have to forgive my ignorance, but I'm not a native English speaker, and the term is not easy to make sense of from a dictionary:madman:

Magura


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Layup schedule refers to the number of layers and the orientation as well as the type of cloth used.


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## Fix the Spade (Aug 4, 2008)

Mr.Magura said:


> I am going to make them moldless, using the foam core as positive mold.


I take it that means the foam will be staying within the finished frame? You'll have the quietest, strongest bike on the planet! Keep us posted please


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## dhbomber (Nov 7, 2006)

Subbed!


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## forwardcomponents (Dec 2, 2008)

I'm impressed. The frame plug is very well made. Why not use it to make a cavity mold for the composite frame, and use inflated bladders to compact the resin/fiber matrix?


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## sonic reducer (Apr 12, 2010)

Fix the Spade said:


> I take it that means the foam will be staying within the finished frame? You'll have the quietest, strongest bike on the planet! Keep us posted please


AFAIK you can remove the foam by disolving it with acetone.



forwardcomponents said:


> I'm impressed. The frame plug is very well made. Why not use it to make a cavity mold for the composite frame, and use inflated bladders to compact the resin/fiber matrix?


how does one do the layup using a female mold and pressure bladders?

to the OP: great work. I would definitely like to do something similar.


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## joshuagore (Oct 15, 2009)

sonic reducer said:


> AFAIK you can remove the foam by disolving it with acetone.
> 
> how does one do the layup using a female mold and pressure bladders?
> 
> to the OP: great work. I would definitely like to do something similar.


Bladder molding frames of this nature normally require custom bladders which are costly to make for prototype runs. They are also not perfect out of the box, often requiring changes in the bladder design to allow for layer build up in specific areas, with bagging external dimensions will change when layer buildup is changed.

Bladder materials are either latex or nylon, and are often used in prepreg layup,although I have bladder molded hollow parts using wet layup. The viscoscity of a wet layup and bladder molding on frame would require perfect sealing on A and B mold halves or else as the bladder pressure increases it can force out resin.... that is unless the part is layed up damp, and resin is pulled through the mold. For this to happen the mold parting halves must be perfectly sealed or else when you pull vac to draw resin through the mold it will pull air through parting line.

Moral of the story, bladder molding is best left to prepreg on parts which have multiple unique shutoffs on parting line... like seat tube, and head tube.

His method is sound for making short run prototypes, and if going production an aluminum tool, bladder, prepreg, and a heated platen press would be used.

Josh


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## MPU (May 15, 2009)

Interesting project. I made something remotely similar when I made a carbon fiber neck over an obeche core for a headless bass guitar. Looking forward for more pics and story.
Marko


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

MPU said:


> Interesting project. I made something remotely similar when I made a carbon fiber neck over an obeche core for a headless bass guitar. Looking forward for more pics and story.
> Marko


I have a huge peacock. And now I am subscribed.


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## starship303 (May 16, 2006)

Been waiting for you to start a building thead after reading about this here bike in the "DH Carbon" thread, Magura! Looks promising for sure. Nice work. Eager to see the linkage designs you adopt for testing.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

shirk said:


> Layup schedule refers to the number of layers and the orientation as well as the type of cloth used.


Thanks for the clarification 

The number of layers differs a lot depending where on the frame you look. I have an entire A4 sheet of notes for this (handwriting), so it would be quite a task to post it.
I am going to use mainly 300g/m2 UD carbon. 0, 20, and 45 degrees to the axis of the tubes. 
I will add carbon multi wall nanotubes to the epoxy (5% by weight), to enhance the properties.
In areas of potential hard impact, I will use ballistic weave 463g/m2 Kevlar.

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Fix the Spade said:


> I take it that means the foam will be staying within the finished frame? You'll have the quietest, strongest bike on the planet! Keep us posted please


Yes, the foam core will stay in the frame, as the 120g weight penalty seems to be well worth the benefits. I did it the same way when I made a road fork of carbon 15 years ago, and have seen no ill effects of that approach.

I am not sure there is much strength to gain from leaving the foam core in there, but it makes for a dead silent frame, instead of the terrible noise a hollow frame makes. It also keeps water and dirt from entering the frame, which in turns keeps the bearings in the bottom bracket dry on the inside.

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

sonic reducer said:


> AFAIK you can remove the foam by disolving it with acetone.
> 
> how does one do the layup using a female mold and pressure bladders?
> 
> to the OP: great work. I would definitely like to do something similar.


Thanks for the compliment. 
This is not rocket science, so just go ahead and get your feet wet.

Yes that's right, acetone will dissolve the PS foam core if I one day will feel like making the experiment some day.

To use female mold and bladders, a completely different approach is required. Then we are talking prepreg and custom bladders. That in itself is no big deal, as DIY custom bladders are relatively easy to make, but to cure the prepreg, you need to heat up the entire mold.
Considering those issues, and the limited (if any) benefits it may offer, that approach is a bit overkill for a limited series. 
Also keep in mind, that I do not want more than one frame of each design, so making new molds for each design, makes for a very man hour intensive, and expensive toy.
Like I do it now, I can make the entire frame for something like 400$.

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

joshuagore said:


> Moral of the story, bladder molding is best left to prepreg on parts which have multiple unique shutoffs on parting line... like seat tube, and head tube.
> 
> His method is sound for making short run prototypes, and if going production an aluminum tool, bladder, prepreg, and a heated platen press would be used.
> 
> Josh


This conforms well with my experience. I have seen a few people over time, try to fight all the issues of bladder molding prototype runs. So far they have either failed, or ended up with hefty expenses, and a very limited (if any) quality increase.

With lots of attention to design and careful processing, I can get 70% fiber content by vacuum bagging, using a closed cell foam core. That is more than good enough for something like this. 
The void count can also be kept low if done with care and attention, according to my experience.

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Todays progress was to test the batch of foam used for the core, and my new vacuum pump.

It turned out rather good. The pump is offering a max. vacuum of 70 cm/Hg, which is quite good for something like this project. 
The foam is able to survive full vacuum from the pump, which simplifies the whole thing. 

Next step is to make tailor made vacuum bags for the project. This may sound easy, but rest assured that it is among the hard parts of this project. 


Magura


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## David_N (Jun 14, 2011)

This looks awesome, something I'd like to do some day, but not quite yet, good luck!


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## 1 cog frog (Dec 21, 2004)

*Great project!*

Can't wait to see updates!


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

joshuagore said:


> Bladder molding frames of this nature normally require custom bladders which are costly to make for prototype runs. They are also not perfect out of the box, often requiring changes in the bladder design to allow for layer build up in specific areas, with bagging external dimensions will change when layer buildup is changed.
> 
> Bladder materials are either latex or nylon, and are often used in prepreg layup,although I have bladder molded hollow parts using wet layup. The viscoscity of a wet layup and bladder molding on frame would require perfect sealing on A and B mold halves or else as the bladder pressure increases it can force out resin.... that is unless the part is layed up damp, and resin is pulled through the mold. For this to happen the mold parting halves must be perfectly sealed or else when you pull vac to draw resin through the mold it will pull air through parting line.


what on earth are you talking about???


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## dhbomber (Nov 7, 2006)

MPU said:


> Interesting project. I made something remotely similar when I made a carbon fiber neck over an obeche core for a headless bass guitar. Looking forward for more pics and story.
> Marko


Weren't you that guy who posted a pictorial on how to do a carbon fiber bass neck on the Luthiers Corner on Talk Bass??


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## eyderman (May 13, 2004)

very interesting!
subscribed


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## FoCo29er (Dec 5, 2010)

That is way cool!!!


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## joshuagore (Oct 15, 2009)

compositepro said:


> what on earth are you talking about???


I may mix and match injection mold terminology, but someone with a knowledge of bladder or vac infusion should get my drift. Is there something specific about my ideas I can clarify?

Josh


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

joshuagore said:


> I may mix and match injection mold terminology, but someone with a knowledge of bladder or vac infusion should get my drift. Is there something specific about my ideas I can clarify?
> 
> Josh


Im just wondering why you would apply a vaccuum to a bladder mould perhaps with your experience in this field you know something the rest of us dont . Have you ever worked with composites?


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## MPU (May 15, 2009)

dhbomber said:


> Weren't you that guy who posted a pictorial on how to do a carbon fiber bass neck on the Luthiers Corner on Talk Bass??


Yep, that's me. 
Marko


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## jd1828 (Jul 27, 2005)

How did you make the foam core? It looks very well made. I'm about to jump into building my own frame. I'm just copying the frame of one of my other bikes but I'm a little worried about making the core. My plan was to just cut the rough shape out with a hot wire and do a lot of sanding.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

jd1828 said:


> How did you make the foam core? It looks very well made. I'm about to jump into building my own frame. I'm just copying the frame of one of my other bikes but I'm a little worried about making the core. My plan was to just cut the rough shape out with a hot wire and do a lot of sanding.


Your plan is not too far off.

I made a few aluminium templates to use for guiding the hot wire cutter. 
Being 3D it takes a bit of planning. The actual cutting is less than half an hour.

After that, it's a matter of marking up the chamfers and so forth, and get the sanding block out.

Magura


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## joshuagore (Oct 15, 2009)

compositepro said:


> Im just wondering why you would apply a vaccuum to a bladder mould perhaps with your experience in this field you know something the rest of us dont . Have you ever worked with composites?


Will respond to original poster in pm if further elaboration is required.
Josh


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## joshuagore (Oct 15, 2009)

Mr.Magura said:


> Your plan is not too far off.
> 
> I made a few aluminium templates to use for guiding the hot wire cutter.
> Being 3D it takes a bit of planning. The actual cutting is less than half an hour.
> ...


If you have the 3d why not cut on cnc? What does your rear triangle look like?
Josh


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

joshuagore said:


> If you have the 3d why not cut on cnc?  What does your rear triangle look like?
> Josh


I meant 3D drawing by hand in this case. Cutting foam on CNC milling machines, is going to require a PVC foam instead of the PS foam I use.

My rear is only a couple of drawings so far. The rear will be a few different designs. 
The first is going to be along the lines of the FSR design.

Magura


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## Fix the Spade (Aug 4, 2008)

Mr.Magura said:


> PS foam I use.


This just occured to me, if PS means Polystyrene, what Epoxy are you using and will it melt your core into horrible black globs when you apply it?

This happened to me, with a surfboard no less, there was swearing.


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## joshuagore (Oct 15, 2009)

Fix the Spade said:


> This just occured to me, if PS means Polystyrene, what Epoxy are you using and will it melt your core into horrible black globs when you apply it?
> 
> This happened to me, with a surfboard no less, there was swearing.


Seal the core with PVA first before using polyester resin or slow cure epoxy?


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Fix the Spade said:


> This just occured to me, if PS means Polystyrene, what Epoxy are you using and will it melt your core into horrible black globs when you apply it?
> 
> This happened to me, with a surfboard no less, there was swearing.


As far as I know, none of the commonly used epoxies will damage PS foam.

Are you sure it wasn't polyester instead of epoxy you had your little mishap with? 
I have seen people end up with funny looking structures before, when using polyester and forgetting to isolate the core.

The epoxy system I use, was used for the test of the vacuum setup yesterday, with no ill effects.

Magura


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## Fix the Spade (Aug 4, 2008)

If it works then fair enough

It probably was Polyester (repairing a fibreglass board), my main memory is of adding the hardener/catalyst and then it all got very angry.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Fix the Spade said:


> If it works then fair enough
> 
> It probably was Polyester (repairing a fibreglass board), my main memory is of adding the hardener/catalyst and then it all got very angry.


I bet you it was 

I did something similar when I was 10. 
I had gotten an idea to make a fiberglass model sailboat. I shaped a hull from PS foam, and covered it in fiberglass and polyester. The day after I went to the workshop to inspect the grand result, only to find some crumpled up mess on the floor:madman:

That little setback did however seem like a disaster at that age 

Magura


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## dhbomber (Nov 7, 2006)

MPU said:


> Yep, that's me.
> Marko


Cool! Small World! :thumbsup:


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

Hi there!
Just some sujections:

If you're using tisue, use only 0º/45º/90º.
20º (or other than 45) layup is not that effective (but still works)

Also, use glass (it can be E-Glass) at intersections with metal. Just a thin layer will be ok! You won't want to have a fuel cell in there! 

I remeber using a kind of plastic has a "bag".
It's easy to do - you just put the stuff on the mold, and let it cure...
and you have the vacum bag!
No more mastiks, and cutting... and dealing with plastic!
I also rember that's not cheap! But... since it's small, you only need some portions!

OH, and the thing never wrinckles! It's really a great vacum bag! (Edit: and reuseble! If you did use CFRP, you wouldn't need: brether/plastic/mastik or anything! Just layup, put the bag, seal it in the limits... and You're off! Also in small and complex parts, you can print in 3D, make the mold and you're off! No need for CNC or anything!:thumbsup

Just let me push y brain cells or find it in Google. If I don't remember, monday I'll put the name of the stuff!


Continue the good work!:thumbsup:


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## octanejake (Oct 11, 2010)

this thread just more or less made my day! 
excellent work, the mold looks incredible, can't wait to see end results


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Tkul said:


> I remeber using a kind of plastic has a "bag".
> It's easy to do - you just put the stuff on the mold, and let it cure...
> and you have the vacum bag!
> No more mastiks, and cutting... and dealing with plastic!
> ...


Ohh, going public are we? 

I'm all ears.

I do wrap the aluminium parts in glass fiber. I have learned my lesson in that regard a couple of years ago, when my DIY carbon cranks after like 8 years of reliable service, all of a sudden decided to let go of the threaded inserts for the pedals. It turned out that a combo of lack of insulation and plenty of road-salt did the trick.

Magura


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

Tkul said:


> Also in small and complex parts, you can print in 3D, make the mold and you're off! No need for CNC or anything!:thumbsup
> 
> :


look up something called windform

just note im not suggesting making a bike from this but we use this regurlaly in brake ducts and ither parts plus rather usefull for tooling for cfrp


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

Mr.Magura said:


> Ohh, going public are we?
> 
> I'm all ears.
> 
> ...


your adhesive should provide plenty of insulation whoever started the old wives tale of fibreglass is 20 years out of date it is not the correct way of doing it as all you have done is add an extra point of failure.

i would put more time into researching surface preparation for bonding


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

compositepro said:


> your adhesive should provide plenty of insulation whoever started the old wives tale of fibreglass is 20 years out of date it is not the correct way of doing it as all you have done is add an extra point of failure.
> 
> i would put more time into researching surface preparation for bonding


Back then I did not bond the aluminium inserts in the carbon, but had them in the casting process instead, so they were directly in contact with the carbon. 
I intend to do the same with the aluminium insert I have for this frame, just glass fiber insulated, is this a bad solution? 
You can see how the U-shaped aluminium insert in question looks. Would you just glue it on top of the carbon surface instead?

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

compositepro said:


> look up something called windform
> 
> just note im not suggesting making a bike from this but we use this regurlaly in brake ducts and ither parts plus rather usefull for tooling for cfrp


For others whom may be interested in reading up on the subject, here is a starting point:

http://www.windform.it/

Magura


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

Mr.Magura said:


> Back then I did not bond the aluminium inserts in the carbon, but had them in the casting process instead, so they were directly in contact with the carbon.
> I intend to do the same with the aluminium insert I have for this frame, just glass fiber insulated, is this a bad solution?
> You can see how the U-shaped aluminium insert in question looks. Would you just glue it on top of the carbon surface instead?
> 
> Magura


tI sent you a pm on an approach you may be able to consider.If you think about it simply you bond fibreglass to the part you then bond carbon to the glassfibre....the epoxy glasfibre to aluminium will still fail if your preperation of the aluminium was not correct ....the prep of the alloy alone will take care of the galvanic issues if you use a dedicated adhesive this will add further insulation


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

compositepro said:


> tI sent you a pm on an approach you may be able to consider.If you think about it simply you bond fibreglass to the part you then bond carbon to the glassfibre....the epoxy glasfibre to aluminium will still fail if your preperation of the aluminium was not correct ....the prep of the alloy alone will take care of the galvanic issues if you use a dedicated adhesive this will add further insulation


Understood and point taken. Surface prep it is then.

Cheers

Magura


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

Yeah... somethings must be transmited!
Anyway, all aluminium must have a E-glass (since it's cheaper than S-Glass) to isolate it from Carbo Fiber (CF).
This is due to Electric Potencial difference, nothing more.
Basically when putting the plyes, the 1st one should be glass. It would be something like:

Aluminium part / E-Glass / CF 

Normally it is used nomex honeycomb and when using Stell/titanium/aluminium a light e-glass tissue it's use. Electrical potencial, nothing more!

For assembly / layup or anything, and if the metal bolts(pins enter in contact with composite, it would be needed to remove material from the honeycomb (where the bolt or other thing would go), put a paste (like "putty") and then put the metal thing.
This was done to garanty that no moister would enter inside the honeycomb:
Moister up --> water --> cold --> Ice --> expand... you can imagine what happens next!!

So, back to frames!!!!

Sincerelly I would put e-glass surounding all metal parts!

oh... I think you thought about it, but it's never more, to remember about cables!!! Look at what Santacruz did with the Tallboy!
That is something smart

I think in next frame, you should think about changing frame design, and replace the Al. U wiht some "U" (or other type of conection - if it could be a continuity of the frame layer it would be better!) in composite?
Sorry for being so critic don't take me wrong!

PS - I really need to install Catia in this computer!!! 
Just a sujection: if you have difficulty in laying somethings, heat up the layer :thumbsup:


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Tkul said:


> oh... I think you thought about it, but it's never more, to remember about cables!!! Look at what Santacruz did with the Tallboy!
> That is something smart
> 
> I think in next frame, you should think about changing frame design, and replace the Al. U wiht some "U" (or other type of conection - if it could be a continuity of the frame layer it would be better!) in composite?
> Sorry for being so critic don't take me wrong!


A version without the aluminium U-bracket is sure in the pipeline. Remember this frame is the first of 3. I just wanted to take the known route for the first frame, to avoid too many unknowns. The next frames are going to be more technically interesting.

Looking at the Tallboy, I fail to see what you mean by smart cable routing?

http://www.santacruzbikes.co.uk/tallboy

It looks pretty much standard to me, so what little smart detail am I missing here? 
It's as far as I can tell, the same as on my old '99 Intense M1.

Magura 

EDIT:

I see what you're saying now, they cast in the cable mounts. I am intending to do the same, as I don't really feel like drilling holes in the composite.


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

I meant cable "security" - basically it's a big fat boundle without any rivet or anything.
I also have to upload some pictures I took at the Cannondale cutout frame (Flash... i think)

EDIT (also ) - kids put me as slow poster! yeah that's it


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Tkul said:


> I meant cable "security" - basically it's a big fat boundle without any rivet or anything.
> I also have to upload some pictures I took at the Cannondale cutout frame (Flash... i think)
> 
> EDIT (also ) - kids put me as slow poster! yeah that's it


In that case I agree  I am in the process of making a mold for casting such cable eyelets.

I'd sure like to see what a Cannondale looks like on the inside.

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

compositepro said:


> tI sent you a pm on an approach you may be able to consider.If you think about it simply you bond fibreglass to the part you then bond carbon to the glassfibre....the epoxy glasfibre to aluminium will still fail if your preperation of the aluminium was not correct ....the prep of the alloy alone will take care of the galvanic issues if you use a dedicated adhesive this will add further insulation


After having read up on the subject, my conclusion is that chromic acid anodizing is the solution in this case. I have chosen chromic acid anodizing, due to availability (I can DIY this solution) and that it is relatively versatile regarding adhesive choice.

Thanks CP for the heads up, and spoon feeding of scientific papers.

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Todays progress was anodizing of the aluminium linkage pivot plate mount. 



Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

I intend to use the good old Hysol 9430 glue for gluing in bearings.

Anybody got a better suggestion?


Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

No better advice for glue, is the Hysol 9430 really still the best solution? 
.....Or just a slow day?

I kinda need that advice soon, as I will need it sometime next week. 
I expect the main triangle to be ready for mounting bearings by then.


Magura


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## joshuagore (Oct 15, 2009)

I can recommend this but my experience has been between stainless and carbon. I also don't like the fact that its re-branded by fiberglast.
http://www.fibreglast.com/product/Epoxy_Paste_Bonding_Adhesive_1101/Epoxy_Resins


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## jd1828 (Jul 27, 2005)

Mr.Magura said:


> No better advice for glue, is the Hysol 9430 really still the best solution?
> .....Or just a slow day?
> 
> I kinda need that advice soon, as I will need it sometime next week.
> ...


How do you plan to attach the bottom bracket and shock linkage? Or do you have a source that I can read on how it's done.

Part of the frame I plan to make has a bolt that attaches the shock link to the seat tube. I'm assuming I can't just tap a thread right into the carbon and I'd need to glue in a metal piece.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

jd1828 said:


> How do you plan to attach the bottom bracket and shock linkage? Or do you have a source that I can read on how it's done.
> 
> Part of the frame I plan to make has a bolt that attaches the shock link to the seat tube. I'm assuming I can't just tap a thread right into the carbon and I'd need to glue in a metal piece.


In your case I would just make a mold insert to form the hole needed for the axle for the link plate pivot in the carbon mold. If you take a look at the photos of my core, you can see Teflon mold inserts. Those are to make precision holes fit for gluing the parts in question straight to the carbon frame.

I have chosen to glue the bottom bracket cups directly in (external type). This allows me to support the bottom bracket all the way.

Magura


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## joshuagore (Oct 15, 2009)

Mr.Magura said:


> In your case I would just make a mold insert to form the hole needed for the axle for the link plate pivot in the carbon mold. If you take a look at the photos of my core, you can see Teflon mold inserts. Those are to make precision holes fit for gluing the parts in question straight to the carbon frame.
> 
> I have chosen to glue the bottom bracket cups directly in (external type). This allows me to support the bottom bracket all the way.
> 
> Magura


Are you machining the bottom bracket custom and sourcing a bearing or just modifying a readily available unit?

Josh


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

joshuagore said:


> Are you machining the bottom bracket custom and sourcing a bearing or just modifying a readily available unit?
> 
> Josh


I am just using a standard Shimano style bottom bracket, as they sport aluminium cups and a sealed center tube. That is too easy to pass up.

You just need to machine the Teflon mold inserts to fit your bottom bracket of choice.

Magura


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

I gotta see this good job Magura, subscribed. Inspired by Ibis eh?


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

mimi1885 said:


> I gotta see this good job Magura, subscribed. Inspired by Ibis eh?


Thanks Mimi.

You would be the second to think "Ibis", but if you look closer, you'll see that the part that resembles the Mojo, is the front half of the front triangle. That part actually does look like the Mojo, and the V10, and some of the Intense offerings.......and about a zillion other carbon frames 

What I did have one eye on when designing the front triangle, was actually the M9 from Intense. Add a bit of M1 to the pot, plus some V10, and you pretty much got the basic idea.
I only noticed the Mojo after having the resemblance pointed out to me earlier in this thread. The mechanics behind my design, couldn't possibly be more different from the Mojo than they are. The key here is the seat tube, as I don't have it connecting the bottom bracket. That makes for a completely different piece of engineering. 
That I have chosen to avoid the VPP rear design as well, takes my design pretty far from just about any current carbon design I know of in this segment.

My aim with this, is to make a bike with all the benefits from the big shot manufacturers, to avoid the VPP system, make it possible to tune it in a versatile manner, and avoid the issues of a fragile frame.

Magura


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## flynfrog (Feb 4, 2011)

Mr.Magura said:


> I intend to use the good old Hysol 9430 glue for gluing in bearings.
> 
> Anybody got a better suggestion?
> 
> Magura


Hysol 9394

or maybe 3M 8115

Maybe not better but some other options.

you can pick up 8115 at autobody supply shops.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

flynfrog said:


> Hysol 9394
> 
> or maybe 3M 8115
> 
> ...


Thanks.

Magura


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## flynfrog (Feb 4, 2011)

also had ok luck with this one.

http://3mcollision.com/products/adh...omix-smc-fiberglass-panel-adhesive-08219.html


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

*subscribing...*

can't wait to see this! great work so far.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

summud said:


> can't wait to see this! Great work so far.


+1^


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## JohnGray (Aug 30, 2008)

*Subscribed...*

.... and more pictures would be great, too.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Here you can see the core, that has been stiffened up by a layer of carbon. 
This is done to be able to just throw the whole frame in a bag for the vacuum process later.

Now I am waiting for the glue for mounting the aluminium bracket for the link pivot point.
If things goes as planned, I will get the glue tomorrow.


Magura


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Why are you gluing the bb and bearings into the frame?

Spin up a mandrel then do your own carbon tube for a Shimano press fit BB92 bb.

Design your pivots to use the same cups.










This is going into a bamboo hardtail I am building.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

shirk said:


> Why are you gluing the bb and bearings into the frame?
> 
> Spin up a mandrel then do your own carbon tube for a Shimano press fit BB92 bb.
> 
> ...


If you look at the first pics in this thread, you will see that I have made mandrels, but made them to fit a standard BB, as they cost like 20$, and work quite well.

The bearings are made for press fit in the main triangle.

Having said that, I guess these frames are going to be "disposable", meaning that I will just make a new frame before changing bearings becomes an issue. I don't think I'm going to ride the same frame for even an entire season.
These frames are meant as a development platform.
Once I settle for a more long term design, I will sure make a frame with carbon press fit bearing seats for the BB as well.

Magura


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

Mr.M,
Concidering the money that your trowing at the project, I would design thinking in "serviceable frame".
sure, it may cost a fraction of nothing to you... but it has some value and would be a shame to send the frame to "recycling" because of bearing faileur
Press-fit is something that appear and is really compatible with composite.
Threads in composite is something to avoid... it's a "metal assembly design"
Don't forget the e-glass on interface.
Also, for the quick look, I thought about the plies you place:
Can you cut a ply to cover has much surface has it's possible?
If you can cover as much as you can with a ply, the frame will be stronger.
Also overlap is necessary and can be between 25 to 45 (mm).
Yellow lines correspond to 1st layer or ply. red is the "second" ply.
Has you put more plies, you should also overlap the thing in order to not put on the same place the "end of the ply"

and finally, if this was facebook, i would put "LIKE" :thumbsup:




Shirk - did you make that thing to final dimension? 
Personally I would put "needed dimensio" + something and cut to "needed dimension".


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Tkul said:


> Shirk - did you make that thing to final dimension?
> Personally I would put "needed dimensio" + something and cut to "needed dimension".


I have not cut it to final dimension yet, I still need to do that.


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Great project! Thanks for sharing the process.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Tkul said:


> Mr.M,
> Concidering the money that your trowing at the project, I would design thinking in "serviceable frame".
> sure, it may cost a fraction of nothing to you... but it has some value and would be a shame to send the frame to "recycling" because of bearing faileur
> Press-fit is something that appear and is really compatible with composite.
> ...


The bearings can be replaced, I just fail to see a need for it, so I don't pay much attention to serviceability for those frames. 
Those frames will be short lived. Once I have gotten the info and experience from the frame I need, it will be replaced by a new model. 
Considering the legal circus around selling such a frame (or even giving it away for free), those frames are simply going to be retired on the wall of fame (ok, the wall in the shed  ).
The linkage bearings are going to be press fit, I will just glue the bottom bracket in.

The plies you see on the core now, are not a structural part of the frame, but just to stiffen up the core adequately to have it vacuumed out of the jig. 
For the structural plies, all layers are going to see overlap and are cut to shape.
95% of the fabric for the structural part, is going to be UD, so it's simply a matter of a lot of footwork, to have the exact layup schedule on the wall prior to starting up, and the corresponding carbon cut and ready. I currently am working on transferring my written layup schedule, into something a lot more descriptive (almost cartoon style), in order to keep confusion to a minimum during the layup. From what I can tell at this point, I will be pressed for time if I have to go back to make a correction, so the layup process will have to run in "no stupidity" mode

Regarding the E-glass interface, here you got a little goodnight read, the link is curtesy of Compositepro:

http://www.ismithers.net/downloads/chapters/Update on Engineering.pdf

That should put the issue to rest 

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

While waiting for the glue to cure, I did a quick and dirty test of the viability of making carbon springs for rear shocks.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=719555

Magura


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

I have not been following this. Sorry but I don't have a Hysol Catalog here at home, and lightning is on it's way so no time to look before shutdown of the computer.

Did you do the entire lay up in one process? Knowing Hysol products, how were you able to get the resin content acceptable. Hysol is pretty thick stuff, good, but viscous.

You might consider something like Huntsman 5052 or Epocast 50a with 9816, Epon 828 is a good general purpose product with decent wet out.

Really the way to do this is with pre preg. All the time you need, within reason. No mess, good resin content. You mentioned building the spring in a clave, so pressure and heat should be a non issue.

In regards to type 1 chromic acid annodize as a prep, it is good, but you may find it easier to ac 130, with BR127 primer. For bonding the aluminum you could set it with film and / or foam adhesesive around any gaps. This will also act as a densifier in the local area.

Awesome project, too bad you aren't in the US, I'd offer some expired "stuff" to test.

PK


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

PMK said:


> I have not been following this. Sorry but I don't have a Hysol Catalog here at home, and lightning is on it's way so no time to look before shutdown of the computer.
> 
> Did you do the entire lay up in one process? Knowing Hysol products, how were you able to get the resin content acceptable. Hysol is pretty thick stuff, good, but viscous.
> 
> ...


I ended up using the Hysol 9466 glue as it was the recommendation of the local Locktite rep. So far it seems like a good solution. 
I only used the 9466 for gluing in the aluminium part, I use an epoxy resin from Fibermax called 2930 for the layup.

I am going to do the entire layup in one process, as I have bad experience with de-lamination when done in more processes. I do however also think it's easier to do it in one go. I have bough a roll of 3K rowing for fixation of the layers, so it's gonna be like laying up a layer, fixation, next layer, and so forth. This way it seems to be relatively easy to make everything stay in place.

My clave is just a small cube DIY version, inner dimensions are like 300 x 300 x 300mm, so much too small for a frame. It is mainly intended to make sterilization tests for medical purposes, as that is needed for my work. Had the clave been bigger, I would have gone the pre preg route for sure. I don't find liquid epoxy all that charming 

I'd love to have been able to get a few samples of some real high tech fabrics, as that is about as hard to find here, as a good looking 25 year old virgin.

So far I have been relatively well off regarding materials. http://www.fibermaxcomposites.com/shop/ has more or less the basics, and in a fine quality. They also sell by the m2, so I don't have to buy an entire roll to see if it works for the application. (got no affiliation with them) On top of that, they seem to be fine with DIY customers whom needs some advice to make it.

Could you extrapolate on the bonding process you recommend? Or drop a link for me to read up on it.

Magura


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

Ac130 is a nice environmentally friendly form of surface prep no anno needed but essentially it serves the same purpose .Aerospace people like it br127 is an epoxy primer which stops corrosion it's common in the aero industry Uk wise at least can't remember who makes which but cytech rings a bell


Just been reading a post on brake pad heatsinks that I found quite interesting I may need to
A. Borrow an idea
B. Find out how to do anodising at home ....any tips DIY could save me some money


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

compositepro said:


> Ac130 is a nice environmentally friendly form of surface prep no anno needed but essentially it serves the same purpose .Aerospace people like it br127 is an epoxy primer which stops corrosion it's common in the aero industry Uk wise at least can't remember who makes which but cytech rings a bell
> 
> Just been reading a post on brake pad heatsinks that I found quite interesting I may need to
> A. Borrow an idea
> B. Find out how to do anodising at home ....any tips DIY could save me some money


Thanks for the explanation.

A. drop me a PM, I can't go entirely public regarding the material.

B. DIY anodizing is a walk in the park. Drop me a PM with your requirements, and I'll sort you out.

Magura


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Yes Cytec. BR127 Adhesion Primer.

The downside of Chromic Acid Annodizing is the prep. It must be etched, hopefully in a tank process, then rinsed very well, a desmutt process is a good step, then rinsed, then annodized.

AC130 is very straightforward, and as mentioned much more environmentally friendly.

In regards to the clave being small. Go prepreg and build a small oven. A tight vacuum bag with a good pull of 29" can debulk the material tight to the core. Careful placement and working out wrinkles will minimize it bunching up. Once under vacuum, you can use a smooth hard roller to help compact it more.

Let it debulk for a few hours, then cure it.

With some ingenuity you can build an insulated wooden box, use some heat guns and buy or build a temp controller. You should have no problem using 250°f prepreg and curing it.

Just be certain all your materials can handle the heat, bag, sealant tape, core, vacuum hoses, peel ply, etc.

Also, ensure the bag is tight, you don't want to draw hot air through the pump and trash it.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

BTW, I doubt there are many 25 YO Virgins here either. At least none you would want to be with.

PK


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

Mr.Magura said:


> I'd love to have been able to get a few samples of some real high tech fabrics, as that is about as hard to find here, as a good looking 25 year old virgin.


what would you like to get hold of?

do you order all your stuff from greece?Why not the Uk (cost or qty)? I would have thought it was closer.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

compositepro said:


> what would you like to get hold of?
> 
> do you order all your stuff from greece?Why not the Uk (cost or qty)? I would have thought it was closer.


I order all my stuff from Greece. The shipping is more or less the same as from the UK.
The cost from Fibermax is among the cheapest I know of for small quantities, and a major plus is actually the way they pack things, as they deliver it in a way that makes it easy to keep things clean (wrapped in film, and packed in a tube bag).

If I could get my hands on Vectran, I would forget about aramid for impact protection. Unfortunately I have only seen relatively light Vectran available in small quantities, but none of the 300g/m2 and up. I could sure use more layers of the lighter fabric, but the end cost would be high then.

I had a bit of Vectran some time ago, and it was just so much easier to work with, plus it wets out much easier as well.

Magura


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## SamL3227 (May 30, 2004)

subscribed! very glad to see this frame coming to form


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

SamL3227 said:


> subscribed! very glad to see this frame coming to form


The weather forecast claims that I will have sub 20C here around Thursday this week, so the main frame is getting cast then if possible.

Magura


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## onlycrimson (Nov 11, 2008)

So sweet, gotta follow this!


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## chauzie (Mar 8, 2010)

Good to see your build thread Mr Magura!

lol I'm finding your thread more interesting than all the typical "check out my awesome huck" video/youtube stuff!

What they say? "the journey is more interesting than the destination" .. or something like that


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## gladegp (Aug 21, 2007)

Ooo, I'm following this thread.

I can't believe the tools and workshop you have at your disposal. I probably wouldn't be able to make any of this stuff even though I had that at my disposal but I would still love to have it


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

gladegp said:


> Ooo, I'm following this thread.
> 
> I can't believe the tools and workshop you have at your disposal. I probably wouldn't be able to make any of this stuff even though I had that at my disposal but I would still love to have it


The only speciality machinery I have at my disposal, which is needed for this, is a small lathe, a small milling machine, a vacuum pump, and a modified oven for the post cure.

The rest is mostly constructed from elbow grease.

The only equipment that is essential, is the vacuum pump, the rest could be worked around, and even a vacuum pump could be worked around if needed.

So go ahead, give it a shot.
The biggest thing there is to this, is knowing how to. To actually make the thing, is just a mere detail.

Magura


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## gladegp (Aug 21, 2007)

Mr.Magura said:


> So go ahead, give it a shot.
> The biggest thing there is to this, is knowing how to. To actually make the thing, is just a mere detail.
> 
> Magura


Hmm you're planting seeds...planting seeds I say... 

The vacuum pump is already at my disposal from vacuumbagging when I build skis. And I know that is a lot of work, I suspect this is a couple of steps up the complexity ladder. But maybe one day


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Mr.Magura said:


> The only speciality machinery I have at my disposal, which is needed for this, is a small lathe, a small milling machine, a vacuum pump, and a modified oven for the post cure.
> 
> The rest is mostly constructed from elbow grease.
> 
> ...


Are you inferring that this was cut out by hand? I just assumed this was profiled with CNC but looking at it closer, it seems perfectly reasonable that it was done by hot wire and hand. Care to elaborate on how you made the blank?


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

jay_ntwr said:


> Are you inferring that this was cut out by hand? I just assumed this was profiled with CNC but looking at it closer, it seems perfectly reasonable that it was done by hot wire and hand. Care to elaborate on how you made the blank?


Yes, it was made by hand.

The hot wire cutter setup, was a 0.5mm constantan wire, pre-tensioned to approx. 100N.
The power supply was an adjustable current limiting SMPS based PSU.

I made guides for the hot wire cutting, of aluminium sheet, cutting one plane at the time. 
All was aligned for each cut, according to a zero plane.

The surface was then sanded, to get rid of the "fur" from the hot wire cut.

That's all.

It is actually relatively simple to do, if the planning of the cuts and guides is done right.

The biggest challenge was to find foam of relatively high homogeneity, as that is mandatory to keeping the final core from casting.

Magura


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Mr.Magura said:


> Yes, it was made by hand.
> 
> The hot wire cutter setup, was a 0.5mm constantan wire, pre-tensioned to approx. 100N.
> The power supply was an adjustable current limiting SMPS based PSU.
> ...


Not to say this wasn't already a cool project--'cause it was--but now it's REALLY COOL IMHO.


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

"_*The biggest thing there is to this, is knowing how to. To actually make the thing, is just a mere detail.*_"

Mr. M, you've got to ear Mourinho speaking and no I don't think it's only a "mere detail"!
Your work has much to speak about (good things!).

Pics... this post needs Pics!


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Well, pics demands progress, and todays progress is not much to speak of visually.
I planned to cast the front triangle today, but the weather did not turn out as hoped for, so todays progress was limited to mixing multi-wall nanotubes and resin. 
So two hours of mixing later, all I have to show is black resin. Not much for a pic 

Tomorrow may turn out to offer better weather, if so I promise to have pics to show.


Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

BTW. a funny little thing I stumbled on while researching multi-wall carbon nanotubes.

Did you know that carbon nanotubes, is the darkest material on this planet? 

To be honest I never paid attention to that before, but after reading that, I went and had a look, and yes I could believe they absorb 99.3% of the light as stated. 
When pointing a flashlight at the bucket of nanotubes, there was no reflection.

Magura


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## MPU (May 15, 2009)

Mr.Magura said:


> BTW. a funny little thing I stumbled on while researching multi-wall carbon nanotubes.
> 
> Did you know that carbon nanotubes, is the darkest material on this planet?
> 
> ...


So there really is something blacker than black 
Marko


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*Burnt ivory is close*



Mr.Magura said:


> BTW. a funny little thing I stumbled on while researching multi-wall carbon nanotubes.
> 
> Did you know that carbon nanotubes, is the darkest material on this planet?
> 
> ...


Be careful, wear protection! You don't want any of those burnt tubes in your lungs


----------



## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

DeerhillJDOG said:


> Be careful, wear protection! You don't want any of those burnt tubes in your lungs


They're too expensive to put in my lungs, or anywhere else, besides the resin 

But thanks for the warning. I should have pointed that you myself, as this thread may end up serving as inspiration for others.

So let's get over with the safety stuff, now that I don't have anything else to show today.

Epoxy is not vitamins, so use plenty of ventilation, fresh air mask, or at least work with it outside.

Carbon nanotubes is just about the opposite of vitamins for the respiration system, so a mask is called for. They come in different classes, and not all of them are suitable, so check up on the data sheet of the mask in question.

When sanding a mask is called for as well, as it gets rather dusty, and the dust does not get any healthier by making it a mix of cured epoxy and carbon.

Rubber gloves are mandatory when handling uncured epoxy.

Hmm, I guess that's it.

Magura


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

Mr.Magura said:


> They're too expensive to put in my lungs, or anywhere else, besides the resin
> 
> But thanks for the warning. I should have pointed that you myself, as this thread may end up serving as inspiration for others.
> 
> ...


Just out of interest ? you have an air fed repirator or just a mask?


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Sheez, do it like the boat guys...get a big fan and blow the dust at your neighbor.

Honestly, you should avoid nuisance dust. 

Now about this wet lay up construction...frozen, thawed, cut, placed, cured...and no immediate concerns for work time, and heck with all the tie plies to prevent shifting.

If it were PP, we would not be waiting.

PK


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## joshuagore (Oct 15, 2009)

compositepro said:


> Just out of interest ? you have an air fed repirator or just a mask?


Do you guys run air fed masks when doing prepreg layup? I run a mask when cutting and finishing after cure, but not air fed... this good? 
Josh


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## flynfrog (Feb 4, 2011)

joshuagore said:


> Do you guys run air fed masks when doing prepreg layup? I run a mask when cutting and finishing after cure, but not air fed... this good?
> Josh


you dont really need a mask at all with prepreg. At least not during layup. A dust mask is nice when cutting or grinding.


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## joshuagore (Oct 15, 2009)

flynfrog said:


> you dont really need a mask at all with prepreg. At least not during layup. A dust mask is nice when cutting or grinding.


Right during layup I used gloves and thats about it. Some parts required trimming and removing of a bladder and it got nasty, so I wore a mask, and often forced myself to wear long sleeves because the one day I didn't made my skin feel like I was crawling. I guess with cured carbon regardless of wet/prepreg finishing requires a mask.

Josh


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

joshuagore said:


> Right during layup I used gloves and thats about it. Some parts required trimming and removing of a bladder and it got nasty, so I wore a mask, and often forced myself to wear long sleeves because the one day I didn't made my skin feel like I was crawling. I guess with cured carbon regardless of wet/prepreg finishing requires a mask.
> 
> Josh


Carbon, Kevlar, Glass, Boron, Paint, Resin, Honeycomb and Even Foam Core should have you wearing some type of decent dust mask. When trimming or working with cured components, the method of fabrication is irrelevant.

When cutting dry fabric, it is a good idea to wear a mask. Small particles can be ejected from the cutting edges and float in the air. PP's while trimming should not be an issue while cutting, but are in regards to trimming.

For those doing this stuff at home, you must understand that the dust can pollute your entire house, and if anyone living their is allergic to this stuff, well, it won't be good.

Also, when working in a shop, bring the dust home, or even into your car while on your clothes is bad. Consider it may get into your clothes washer and or dryer.

Also, if you use a vacuum to control the dust, have a proper filter, as in the more expensive type for containing HEPA type particles. Glass and Carbon dust is pretty abrasive and will trash a vacuum over time. Additionally, an ineffective filter will just blow dust all over the place. Making matters more complex with Carbon is that it is conductive and can short out an electric vacuum, or any other electrical tools you may use.

Suffice to say that composites are very cool to work with and have around, unfortunately most people do not understand or know the possible hazards of working with them.

Don't forget about splinters either, I often explain that a wooden splinter can hurt, Carbon splinters are a magnitude much more painful and last a while. Stupid as it sounds, you often bite your skin away or remove them with a razor blade. Most times they get infected before they will come free.

Nano enhanced resins add one more level to be concerned about.

While similar to woodworking with dust and so forth, it's not. Be careful.

Now about this frame, is it soup yet?

PK


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

compositepro said:


> Just out of interest ? you have an air fed repirator or just a mask?


I borrow my way to a respirator, when the weather does not allow for working outside.

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

PMK said:


> Carbon, Kevlar, Glass, Boron, Paint, Resin, Honeycomb and Even Foam Core should have you wearing some type of decent dust mask. When trimming or working with cured components, the method of fabrication is irrelevant.
> 
> When cutting dry fabric, it is a good idea to wear a mask. Small particles can be ejected from the cutting edges and float in the air. PP's while trimming should not be an issue while cutting, but are in regards to trimming.
> 
> ...


Sanding carbon indoors is just a no-go in my book. That stuff will get everywhere, and there is almost no chance of getting rid of it.

The progress is delayed by the weather. I really don't feel like doing it indoors, as that would require me to wear the respirator for a couple of hours, so still waiting for the wind to calm down.

Magura


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## flynfrog (Feb 4, 2011)

a tyvek paint suit goes a long way to keeping your car and clothes itch free and your laminates fod free. I have a few coats that I cant wear anymore because they are full of fibers.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Got around to casting the frame today.

Maaan I'm wasted, big time!


It turned out fine, and now I'm off to bed.

Pics tomorrow.


Magura


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## joshuagore (Oct 15, 2009)

Mr.Magura said:


> Got around to casting the frame today.
> 
> Maaan I'm wasted, big time!
> 
> ...


You tease!


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## gladegp (Aug 21, 2007)

I just saw an interesting episode of Discovery Channels "How do they do it" where they showed how Guru Bikes made a carbon racer frame. It was really quite interesting but probably a bit basic for you guys.
I don't know if you can see these shows somewhere online (the other stuff in the show was blood plasma, chandelier and ball point pens)

Edit: You can see it on their website: http://www.gurubikes.com/enUS/making/

Or direct link: http://www.gurubikes.com/videos/howitsmade.php?iframe=true&width=640&height=370


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## joshuagore (Oct 15, 2009)

gladegp said:


> I just saw an interesting episode of Discovery Channels "How do they do it" where they showed how Guru Bikes made a carbon racer frame. It was really quite interesting but probably a bit basic for you guys.
> I don't know if you can see these shows somewhere online (the other stuff in the show was blood plasma, chandelier and ball point pens)
> 
> Edit: You can see it on their website: http://www.gurubikes.com/enUS/making/
> ...


This is the process I have used for bladder molding, except my press is not heated so I used cartridge heaters. They really glare over the layup process, and just how well trimmed and things need to be so as to not pinch material when closing the mold. 
Josh


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

gladegp said:


> Or direct link: http://www.gurubikes.com/videos/howitsmade.php?iframe=true&width=640&height=370


Very interesting.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Here you got a pic, straight from the vacuum.


Magura


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## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

Very nice! I just finished doing a bunch of vacuum composite work (not bikes  ) and I'm glad to be back to working in metal for most of my other random projects... but it makes me appreciate what a nice job you've done so far.


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## elcoolio1 (Mar 5, 2011)

Wow, amazing thread, can't wait to see the bike built up


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Todays progress.

It's ready for the "money layer".

The bearing seats came out very fine.


Magura


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## flynfrog (Feb 4, 2011)

Mr.Magura said:


> Here you got a pic, straight from the vacuum.
> 
> Magura


no shrink tape?


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

flynfrog said:


> no shrink tape?


No. I used a mix of peelply and perforated foil.

The resin you can see in the inner radius of the triangles, is what went in between the vacuum film.

According to my calculations, the fiber percentage is above 65%, which is better than I expected.

Magura


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Mr.Magura said:


> They're too expensive to put in my lungs, or anywhere else, besides the resin


Interested how much you're planning to use, and your process to cover the frame with an "even spread" of tubes. At teh price I wonder how much is needed to get a significant boost in strength.


----------



## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

DeerhillJDOG said:


> Interested how much you're planning to use, and your process to cover the frame with an "even spread" of tubes. At teh price I wonder how much is needed to get a significant boost in strength.


The "money layer" is not referring to the CNT, but rather a cosmetic layer of carbon, to make it look good.

The CNT is mixed with the resin, thus a part of the CF composite.

I used 1% by weight in the resin.

I know 1% does not sound like a lot, but at 3% the resin becomes like gravy, and 5% it resembles plastic padding.

Theoretically 1% gains up to 50% rigidity, but that depends how well they are mixed with the resin. For optimum results, ultrasonic mixing is required, which I have no equipment for. I had to settle for mechanical mixing, which will leave part of the CNT tangled up.

I expect to gain like 20%, and that is just fine, as it is pretty much a free lunch, due to the CNT replacing resin, so no weight added.

Magura


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## flynfrog (Feb 4, 2011)

What was your ply stack?


----------



## rustybkr (Mar 30, 2010)

nice work


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

If you got 65 / 35 resin content, that is very good.

Seeing this now laid up, I am certain you were working quickly.

Other than pretty, is the secondary bonding of a another ply important? Why not save the weight and go without it.

The photos look good. Have you at least coin tapped the areas around the core to verify you have a good bond with no gaps in the high load areas.

PK


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

PMK said:


> If you got 65 / 35 resin content, that is very good.
> 
> Seeing this now laid up, I am certain you were working quickly.
> 
> ...


I am also very pleased that the fiber percentage is that high.

I had a friend of mine helping during the layup, I couldn't possibly have made it alone in one go. It took almost 2.5 hours to do, and we managed to co-operate quite well, considering this was a much more complicated task than any of us had previously experienced.

I have tapped like mad  cause I expected to find gaps, but no such thing was found. So either I need to improve my tapping technique, or it went better than expected.

The "money layer" would partly be for getting some practice, partly cause after sanding, it's like a sponge. I realize that a quick coat of epoxy would do the trick as well, but adding a layer of 90g/m2 UD, is not gonna make much of a difference.

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

flynfrog said:


> What was your ply stack?


On the down tube, it was 160g/m2 90 degree, 300g/m2 along axis x2 - 45 degrees in both directions x2 - along axis x2 , 160g/m2 90 degree.

Magura


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Mr.Magura said:


> I know 1% does not sound like a lot, but at 3% the resin becomes like gravy, and 5% it resembles plastic padding.
> 
> Theoretically 1% gains up to 50% rigidity, but that depends how well they are mixed with the resin. For optimum results, ultrasonic mixing is required, which I have no equipment for. I had to settle for mechanical mixing, which will leave part of the CNT tangled up.
> 
> ...


Was it difficult to mix the air bubbles out, or have you tested w/ thinning the resin to increase the nanotube%?:thumbsup:


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

DeerhillJDOG said:


> Was it difficult to mix the air bubbles out, or have you tested w/ thinning the resin to increase the nanotube%?:thumbsup:


Bubbles did not turn out to be a problem, as they were easily removed by putting the resin under vacuum prior to mixing with hardener.

Thinning the resin has been on my mind, but I fear to not be able to remove the thinner adequately.

Also according to the papers I've read about CNT, depending how well they're mixed in the resin, it is not an obvious benefit to increase the percentage.

You sound like you have some knowledge in this regard, please spill the beans, as CNT enhanced resin is not an easy topic to get reliable info about.

Magura


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## dhbomber (Nov 7, 2006)

Wow...can't wait to see the final product!!!


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

dhbomber said:


> Wow...can't wait to see the final product!!!


Same here, but now the progress will slow down for a couple of weeks, as the nanotechnology institute expects me to work 

Highly unreasonable if you ask me

Magura


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

http://www.zyvextech.com/resources/

Check out this and other pages on their site.

I have cured sample of the Aerovox PP I beleive. Actually pretty cool with the satin carbon weave and blackened resin system on account of the Nanos.

PK


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

PMK said:


> http://www.zyvextech.com/resources/
> 
> Check out this and other pages on their site.
> 
> ...


I think I need some of their low temp cure Aerovox. 

The next step in this process, after confirming the initial prototype works as expected, is to make a negative mould, and go for bladder moulding and prepreg.

Thanks for the heads up, much appreciated.

Magura


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Mr.Magura said:


> I think I need some of their low temp cure Aerovox.
> 
> The next step in this process, after confirming the initial prototype works as expected, is to make a negative mould, and go for bladder moulding and prepreg.
> 
> ...


Build your molds from composite tooling type products.

Be very careful about what products you use as some are more prone to pinholes in the surface coat of the mold.

Also, to properly build a composite is not difficult, but requires some initial practice.

Additionally, be very careful in building the tool to prevent air pockets of any type. You will probably do best to build a tool using surface coat, glass and tooling compound. I base this on account of the shape you have.

As for the bladder, all fine but could be expensive. FWIW, many of the road frames I have repaired are molded as left and right halves and adhesive bonded together. These joints are not improved upon and create havoc. Actually a BS design for an expensive frame, but people flock to them.

You could do similar, except apply a two ply stepped tape to improve the joints. A single ply triaxial tape which could give a direction as laid of 90,+60,-60 would be good also.

Done right this could also be a hybrid of differing colors to give a signature appearance.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Yes, a 180f PP with 21 days of out time while retaining tack would be much easier to build with.

It is listed as 30 day total out time, but 21 on the tack properties.

Bad part is a 10 hour cure. 

This system with an 8 harness satin carbon in 3k would be unique, strong and pretty sweet to look at. Can you say no twill here...

PK


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

PMK said:


> Build your molds from composite tooling type products.
> 
> Be very careful about what products you use as some are more prone to pinholes in the surface coat of the mold.
> 
> ...


I am a toolmaker by education, so the moulds does not represent much of a problem. 
I have previously built moulds in ways that resembles your description, which came out nicely. 
Making bladders does also not seem all that difficult, but will simply take some experimentation to get right, and that seems to be the same for the more established composite companies. Welding PE bladders, or gluing mylar bladders, would be where I'd go. Which of those two types do you consider the better solution?

I would like to avoid gluing the frame up from two halves, but rather bonding it from sections, as that seems to work out much easier, and it would also make for easier experimentation.

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

PMK said:


> Yes, a 180f PP with 21 days of out time while retaining tack would be much easier to build with.
> 
> It is listed as 30 day total out time, but 21 on the tack properties.
> 
> ...


Counting out that 10 hours is a drag, it does not offer much of a problem, as we recently built an oven big enough to take a couple of frames. The oven is however limited to approx. 100C, so the LTC is a must.

21 days of tack, would be a nice step forward, compared to the 3 hour pot life of the resin used now. 3 hours is simply a stress nightmare for something as complicated as this.

8 harness satin carbon sure seems attractive  Twill does not make much sense, exempt that it keeps the UD in place in a wet layup, which is hard to do without. I initially planned to use rowing for keeping the UD in place, but time constraints quickly changed that plan.

Magura


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

hybtonite 
Amroy

the euro guys for zyvex are arkema iirc

hypro are distributed bty german supplier of the emerald performance system

there is another i used for our taiwanese rim manufacturer that was from denmark but its name escapes me at the moment


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Mr.Magura said:


> I am a toolmaker by education, so the moulds does not represent much of a problem.
> I have previously built moulds in ways that resembles your description, which came out nicely.
> Making bladders does also not seem all that difficult, but will simply take some experimentation to get right, and that seems to be the same for the more established composite companies. Welding PE bladders, or gluing mylar bladders, would be where I'd go. Which of those two types do you consider the better solution?
> 
> ...


Two halves lends itself well to bladders AND demolding. If you want to build in sections, I would seriously consider using braided material to form sections, ultimately splicing and reinforcing with an outer ply that would also provide cosmetic appearance.

My use of bladders is not much, I am well versed on their use and process, unfortunately, the bicycle applications / repairs I deal with are more often repairs of items molded on bladders.

If you do not want to build in halves bladder process seems a bit less worthwhile.

Realize also that an ID of a tube can be accomplished via an envelope bag expanding to the ID surface. Similar result if access is there and limited mainly by the 14.7 PSI of a 30" bag.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Mr.Magura said:


> Counting out that 10 hours is a drag, it does not offer much of a problem, as we recently built an oven big enough to take a couple of frames. The oven is however limited to approx. 100C, so the LTC is a must.
> 
> 21 days of tack, would be a nice step forward, compared to the 3 hour pot life of the resin used now. 3 hours is simply a stress nightmare for something as complicated as this.
> 
> ...


With your oven, you must ensure it has the heat evenly applied, regardless of a wet layup or prepreg. Also, be very focused on a proper curing schedule especially ramp up and dwell times.

Your use of LTC means ? Long term cure?

3 hour pot life is a long time...you should be mixing in smaller batches. Have all cups of resin premeasured, have the matching curing agent premeasured also. As you work the material, have a helper mix more as you need it from the premeasured cups. For optimum results be certain to double cup all batches.

8 HS is a worthwhile consideration. Long loops add strength. Unfortunately, uni is the optimum way to put strength only where needed without added weight.

The twill is much easier to conform to shapes.

I am assuming you uni material was bound, so why was the additional material needed to secure it? Was it trying to stand up? If so this is one more reason why they build in 1/2's.

Are we going to see additional photos of the frame? I'm guessing it has been clear coated after sanding.

PK


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Mr.Magura said:


> Bubbles did not turn out to be a problem, as they were easily removed by putting the resin under vacuum prior to mixing with hardener.
> 
> Thinning the resin has been on my mind, but I fear to not be able to remove the thinner adequately.
> 
> ...


Not an expert by any means, the mixing with this stuff is trial and error $$.. have you ever seen anyone do a stress test on just the nanotube/resin ? Would love to see what happens in a series of varying "glue" recipes in tube form


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Any update on this project?


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

DeerhillJDOG said:


> Not an expert by any means, the mixing with this stuff is trial and error $$.. have you ever seen anyone do a stress test on just the nanotube/resin ? Would love to see what happens in a series of varying "glue" recipes in tube form


I have been playing around with just nanotube/resin. It makes for a pretty superior type of engineering plastic. Trouble is to mix enough nanotubes in the resin, to make it work proper, and yet be able to get rid of the air.

There is a paper on this somewhere on the net, I read it a while back.

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

shirk said:


> Any update on this project?


Not really.
I have spent some time doing the calculations for the first rear end, but that's it.

I have been caught up with the carbon rotor disc brake project.
That project is more or less done by now, with just some measurements left, for some day with better weather.

So I hope to get some time in on the carbon frame in the nearest future.

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

PMK said:


> With your oven, you must ensure it has the heat evenly applied, regardless of a wet layup or prepreg. Also, be very focused on a proper curing schedule especially ramp up and dwell times.
> 
> Your use of LTC means ? Long term cure?
> 
> ...


By LTC I meant low temp cure.

We have a ventilator in the oven, to make sure there is even temperature in the entire oven. That however may not be good enough, or we will need more ventilators. 
For the wet layup, all I have found out regarding ramp up temp, is that the ramp up must be adequately slow, which is not really a problem, as we are limited to 2kW.

I did mix as I needed the epoxy, as I was afraid to run into exothermic runaway. I have had that happen in the past, which did not inspire a re-run of that scenario 

I needed something to keep the uni in place, as it was trying to stand up, and was sliding around. To be honest, that frame was a nightmare to cast, as it just got harder and harder to handle and to keep the uni in place, as the project went forward.

It's for sure that the next frame is going to be built in halves, no question there anymore. Making moulds would take less time than the layup circus and the making of foam cores.

The frame looks exactly like it did two weeks ago, so for now, I have nothing new to show.

Magura


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Mr.Magura said:


> I have been caught up with the carbon rotor disc brake project.


I read the updates on that last night. Super cool project.

Soon you will have everything in carbon....rotor's, rear spring, frame....what is next?


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

shirk said:


> I read the updates on that last night. Super cool project.
> 
> Soon you will have everything in carbon....rotor's, rear spring, frame....what is next?


I guess the next choice will be between either making carbon bars, or I'll have to get a life 

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

A link to the carbon brake project, for those seeking some light hearted entertainment.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=8275447#post8275447

Magura


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Mr.Magura said:


> I guess the next choice will be between either making carbon bars, or I'll have to get a life
> 
> Magua :r)


DIY carbon rims.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

shirk said:


> DIY carbon rims.


Such has actually been considered, but was put aside for winter.

Magura


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## aenema (Apr 17, 2006)

I absolutely love threads like this. Just found it and read through, wanted to say that I am also subscribing and am excited to watch this run its course.


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

I've got to say that I am extremely impressed with both of the projects you're working on. What is your ultimate goal? I read about the carbon rims but are you going to attempt to build an entire bike piece by piece?

Whatever your intentions are, I have been following both for a while now and think that they are the most interesting two threads on mtbr right now.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

mtbnozpikr said:


> I've got to say that I am extremely impressed with both of the projects you're working on. What is your ultimate goal? I read about the carbon rims but are you going to attempt to build an entire bike piece by piece?
> 
> Whatever your intentions are, I have been following both for a while now and think that they are the most interesting two threads on mtbr right now.


To be honest, there is no ultimate goal. I'm having some fun, and that's pretty much it.

By now I pretty much have built an entire bike through the years, but I have not had all the parts at once though. Some also have been stolen, for instance the hydraulic rear der. got stolen after I had it for short time. I have made a bunch of hubs over time, and carbon cranks have also been made a while ago, those died due to galvanic corrosion after serving me well for like 10 years. Years ago I also made a carbon seat, which I sure think I will make another of, as it was quite comfy. I have never made carbon stems or handlebars, but I do consider making handlebars sometime this winter. A few carbon seat posts has seen the light of day as well over the years. Lately I made a composite chainring, and I'm also toying with the thought of making a carbon cassette.

For now I would like to get the carbon frame done, but as usual some other project got squeezed in the to-do list. I bought myself a Fireeye Shortfuse 360 frame yesterday, and need to make a bunch of parts for that to become a bike. 
Yesterday I also began experimenting with composite spokes, and with that little project a set of composite hubs may end up on the to-do list as well. 
The composite spoke thing looks very promising by the way. It seems to be pretty straight forward to make such, and even rather cheap as well. So far a pretty light and very sturdy wheel set seems well within reach.

Magura


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

Mr.Magura said:


> To be honest, there is no ultimate goal. I'm having some fun, and that's pretty much it.
> 
> By now I pretty much have built an entire bike through the years, but I have not had all the parts at once though. Some also have been stolen, for instance the hydraulic rear der. got stolen after I had it for short time. I have made a bunch of hubs over time, and carbon cranks have also been made a while ago, those died due to galvanic corrosion after serving me well for like 10 years. Years ago I also made a carbon seat, which I sure think I will make another of, as it was quite comfy. I have never made carbon stems or handlebars, but I do consider making handlebars sometime this winter. A few carbon seat posts has seen the light of day as well over the years. Lately I made a composite chainring, and I'm also toying with the thought of making a carbon cassette.
> 
> ...


That's awesome. I'm in awe and short of words.


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## capt.crispy (Nov 17, 2006)

Very cool.Love it.


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## hardtailkid (Jan 25, 2010)

Now get it powdercoated black with green ghost flames, like on the Project 1 Treks


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## Cracked Headtube (Apr 16, 2006)

any updates?


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## GHOPPER (Jun 17, 2010)

Dude get back to work!!!! Forget the lame brakes and work on the frame!!!


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## TyranT (Mar 30, 2011)

^ ^ I agree :arf:


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

So, the Shortfuse 360 turned into a bike about a month ago, and has been a lot of fun in the process, as well as riding it.

I ended up making a few bits for it myself, like hubs, seat post, BB shell, and a few other pieces.

The hubs can be seen here:

http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/adding-bit-technology-street-dj-hubs-745309.html

Now back to the carbon frame......

As some of you already knows, work has taken a hefty toll on my spare time lately 

I spent some time making tests of the front triangle, and it sure is strong and stiff, so I have slowly started up the rear end.

It seems that the project generally is heading in the right direction, and that theory and reality adds up nicely so far.

Magura


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## hardtailkid (Jan 25, 2010)

Update pics?


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## bardynt (Oct 11, 2011)

hey

were did you get that frame mold from were can you buy the foam from

i was looking at either getting a frame mold from old bike

also were did you get the carbon fiber from was it 3k or 12 or a blend

i was looking at doing one of the projects but then having acess to oven big enough and also vacuum seals and all the stuff way outta my range

so what is the easiest method?


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## TyranT (Mar 30, 2011)

I have been researching the topic as I am making an XC frame for a school project and thought this website was helpful How I Built a Composite Bike in My Garage, by Damon Rinard


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

bardynt said:


> hey
> 
> were did you get that frame mold from were can you buy the foam from
> 
> ...


If you look earlier in this thread, you'll see that I made the frame mold myself.

The foam was purchased from a composite manufacturer, but can most likely be had other places as well.

The carbon is sourced in a few different places, but can all be had from Fibermax composites. 
It's a mix of a few different types of carbon, multiwall nanotubes, and aramide.

You can build yourself an over for cheap, that's what I did.

Vacuum equipment can also be sorted for cheap, if you make some of it yourself, so no reason to be scared off due to cost.

Magura


----------



## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

[ redacted ]


----------



## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

TyranT said:


> I have been researching the topic as I am making an XC frame for a school project and thought this website was helpful How I Built a Composite Bike in My Garage, by Damon Rinard


The method used by Damon is not something I would recommend, as the end result is relatively low quality, and relatively fragile as well.

Magura


----------



## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Drew Diller said:


> [ redacted ]


Agreed, but my Mr. Nice Guy decided to explain the obvious once more.....

Probably helped a bit on the way by the Mrs. just served home made chicken sandwich and so forth 

Magura


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## canamer (Apr 19, 2011)

Mr.Magura said:


> The method used by Damon is not something I would recommend, as the end result is relatively low quality, and relatively fragile as well.
> 
> I don't totally agree with that statement. The method used by Damon can result in a descent bike as long as all the carbon tubes made are round or oval. The round shape allows for an even distribution of pressure around the whole tube. Flat sections of tube would result in a resin rich layup. Therfore lower quality.
> I have a mountain bike that I made using mainly the rear triangle, head tube, bottom bracket and seat tube from an aluminum frame. The bike is used for hard single track riding with a variety of humps and bumps. I used the "electrical tape" method on mainly the top and down tubes. I also used a different thickness and weave of carbon than Damon did. The result is a bike I can ride as hard as any production bike. The weight attained was no lighter than aluminum but it wasn't any heavier either.
> ...


----------



## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

canamer said:


> Mr.Magura said:
> 
> 
> > The method used by Damon is not something I would recommend, as the end result is relatively low quality, and relatively fragile as well.
> ...


----------



## canamer (Apr 19, 2011)

I just wanted to address the part of your statement "not something I would recommend" After reading your thread, it's obvious you have higher standards and an ability to acomplish those standards. I just wanted to point out the Damon method can be used with reasonable success when used in certain applications.

I'm not much of a forum participant as you can see, my comment to you was my very first post. I guess I am more of a spectator than a participant. Just my style. I will PM you some links to the photos I have.


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## canamer (Apr 19, 2011)

mtbr forum will not let me PM unless I have 10 forum posts. email me at yvon1224 at hot mail and i will send some pics.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

canamer said:


> mtbr forum will not let me PM unless I have 10 forum posts. email me at yvon1224 at hot mail and i will send some pics.


You got mail.

Magura


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## CarbonMike (Nov 7, 2005)

Wow beautiful project!!! Good luck with it. I made my own frame few years back. My site is not up, so you can see pictures if you google CARBONMIKE. I cant post pictures or links because of low post count...

If you have any questions just ask, maybe I can help you. 

Mike


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## Fix the Spade (Aug 4, 2008)

CarbonMike said:


> Wow beautiful project!!!
> 
> Mike


Sweet frame!

Makes roll-wrapping look managable, how is it holding up in use?

Also, are the linkage parts from an Intense or Santa Cruz? They look familiar...


----------



## CarbonMike (Nov 7, 2005)

Thanks,

frame is made by laying carbon fiber layers and then compacting them with electrical rubber tape with sticky tape up. Tape is perforated with needle so excess resin can flow out. Primitive technology but works. I finished this frame in 2007 and I still ride on it. Its my only frame. I was riding it on several local downhill races with no problems. After lot of crashes I dont have any cracks. Only scratches. But frame is ,,overbuilded,,. It can be seen on weight. Weights 3680g without shock and thats terrible weight.

All parts on frame except industrial bearings are custom designed by me. I polished all parts and sandblasted that VPP logo on bottom link.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

3680g for a sturdy DH frame, is not half bad you know.

I expect to land around that weight myself, as overbuilt is not necessarily overkill for a DH frame in my book. 

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

CarbonMike said:


> Wow beautiful project!!! Good luck with it. I made my own frame few years back. My site is not up, so you can see pictures if you google CARBONMIKE. I cant post pictures or links because of low post count...
> 
> If you have any questions just ask, maybe I can help you.
> 
> Mike


Thanks for the offer :thumbsup:

When I pick up this project again, I'd sure like to compare notes.

Magura


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## CarbonMike (Nov 7, 2005)

Yes, but my bike is in enduro category with its 150/150mm travel 

In what building stage are you right now?


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Ok, doing local DH races on an enduro  Not half bad either!

I'm ready to make the rear end now. I will be going for a FSR style design.


Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Where on the planet are you situated Mike?


Magura


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## CarbonMike (Nov 7, 2005)

FSR will be great. In which program did you design suspension? Linkage?

I live in Europe - Slovakia.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

CarbonMike said:


> FSR will be great. In which program did you design suspension? Linkage?
> 
> I live in Europe - Slovakia.


I haven't used CAD for any of this project. I make paper drawings, and scale models if needed. I did consider to have the guy that makes CAD work for me make a CAD model, but didn't really feel the need.

I'm in Denmark, not all that far from Slovenia. I passed through Slovenia about a month ago.

Magura


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## CarbonMike (Nov 7, 2005)

Look at Linkage - Bike Suspension Software | Free Demo . You can try demo version of that program. Its not 3D but 2D. Just choose type of suspension and then you can model your geometry. You can change position of points and see how it change suspension behavior. Be carefull with suspension so you will not end up with different travel or too soft suspension (very stiff spring will be needed) etc. Also position of bottom bracket pivot is critical for good pedaling, so you will not have excesive pedal kicback (very anoying).

I live in Slovakia, not Slovenia 

What laminating resin did you use for this project?


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## canamer (Apr 19, 2011)

Magura,

Haven't heard anything in a while. How is the carbon DH project bike progressing? 

I have been riding my carbon 29er in mockup for the past 2 weeks.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Mr.Magura said:


> The DH project is currently muffballed.


I've been muffballing a lot lately too.:thumbsup:


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

The DH project is currently muffballed.

I have too much work, and on top of that I need a new DJ bike, so a carbon DJ bike is on its way.

I made the tube set two weeks ago, and as I type this, the tubes are being post cured in the oven.

Have you made a thread about your project yet?


Magura


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## canamer (Apr 19, 2011)

No thread yet. I will when it's complete. I completed the frame to a rough sanded finish then built it up with a new Sram X9 3x9 speed group. Everything works well and the bike handles very well. Just not happy with the weight (4 pounds 3 ounces). I could have reduced the amount of carbon in the main tubes. Should post something in the next 2 weeks.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

canamer said:


> No thread yet. I will when it's complete. I completed the frame to a rough sanded finish then built it up with a new Sram X9 3x9 speed group. Everything works well and the bike handles very well. Just not happy with the weight (4 pounds 3 ounces). I could have reduced the amount of carbon in the main tubes. Should post something in the next 2 weeks.


Check your mail.

Magura


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

this post /or new post, demand pics!:thumbsup:


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

No pics at the moment. I just got the tubes out of the oven.

I will make a new thread for the DJ frame build in due course.


Magura


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## szaffiri (May 2, 2012)

How are you measuring the fiber content of the layup?


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## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

Ok well if no pics here, at least give us a link here when you do have them up..I've been waiting for pics for a long time


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

szaffiri said:


> How are you measuring the fiber content of the layup?


By weight.

You simply weight what you put in, and subtract what is vacuumed out.

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

sasquatch rides a SS said:


> Ok well if no pics here, at least give us a link here when you do have them up..I've been waiting for pics for a long time


No pics other places, so when you find them here, you will find them the first place they're posted 

Magura


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## szaffiri (May 2, 2012)

Ok thanks, that makes sense. How strong of a vacuum are you pulling? Also are you ever concerned about under saturating the cloth? Are you wetting out each layer individually or using resin infusion? Also are you using epoxy resin or a polyester resin?

Sorry for all the questions and thanks for the help. I have been making a few carbon seats and am trying to get them to be lighter/stronger. My next project is going to be a seatpost, and then hopefully I'll find the time/money to start on a road frame.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

szaffiri said:


> Ok thanks, that makes sense. How strong of a vacuum are you pulling? Also are you ever concerned about under saturating the cloth? Are you wetting out each layer individually or using resin infusion? Also are you using epoxy resin or a polyester resin?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions and thanks for the help. I have been making a few carbon seats and am trying to get them to be lighter/stronger. My next project is going to be a seatpost, and then hopefully I'll find the time/money to start on a road frame.


Under saturating the fiber, is usually not an issue.

I pull from 0.4 to 0.7bar.

i always use epoxy. There are many different types, if cost is an issue, you will have to find a compromise that suits you. Fibermax composites has a bunch of good options.

Sometimes I use resin infusion, sometimes I use wet layup. It depends how complicated the part is. Resin infusion can be quite a challenge, depending of the part.

Depending how complicated the part is, I also use bladder molding. For simple shapes, this is my preferred method. That again combined with either wet layup, or resin infusion.

Magura


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

No news?


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

http://forums.mtbr.com/9568590-post8.html

The full thread:

http://forums.mtbr.com/frame-building/carbon-kevlar-dj-street-trial-frame-804671.html

Magura


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## madmonky13 (Sep 19, 2013)

Sorry to drag up an old thread, but I am thinking about making a carbon version of my Nukeproof Mega and was hoping to find some pictures of others homegrown machines, but all of yours seem to be missing? Any chance this could be resolved?
Thanks
Jordan


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

Hey man, sorry to say: don't expect a response.

Magura is alive and well and not posting on MTBR. Won't say why but something pissed him off here.


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