# 9 speed vs.10 speed?



## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Anyone using 10 speed on their MTB tandem? 

Pros/Cons of riding one or the other?

Is the narrower profile of the chain inherently weaker?

Discuss.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

We have 9 Speed on our bikes. We run XO. Works well, but I will remark that our Cannondale with GripShift / Shimano 8 speed shifted solid like a truck.

FWIW, I spoke with Jamie, a SRAM rep that is local to me. I wanted more info about the possibility of using a 2 x 10 or even 10 speed on tandem cranks. SRAM does not recommend or endorse 10 speed on the front on account of the spacing between the chainrings differs from 9 speed. This may have been comparing a 2x to a 3x specifically, but the engineers refused to discuss it.

I guess the little twist shifter company from the US has a new attitude with their new success.

I don't believe they are planning to offer 10 speed grip shift. My guess would be the new pull ratios for 10 sp are to finicky for twist shifters.

Not much help mainly just some FWIW.

Sorry.

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

So this is what I know so far, but was hoping to get other tandem real world experience.

We have been running 2x10 Sram x.9 on our Fandango 29er. Works great, zero problems. Shifts great and I like the 11/36 cassette too. There are not many options for a 36t cassette on 9sp, but seem to have more 36t options on 10sp.

My question really lends itself to durability. We go through a couple of drivetrains a year regardless of 9sp vs.10sp, so I don't know if the 10sp may possibly wear quicker... I have searched the Drivetrain forum and found this http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-shifters-derailleurs-cranks/9-vs-10-speed-durability-696128.html
It does not really provide tremendous amounts of facts, there is lots speculation. The last post on thread, the one with the two links, is actually really interesting, but it appears that they have not completed their test.

I saw that Hurricane Jeff was interested in 10sp on his dream build. Jeff - what do you think? and why is it on your list of upgrades?

Anyone else have an opinion, facts, or just want to discuss your hate for the bike industry creating yet another standard??? 

thx!!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Yes I was bagging on SRAM a bit. 

The one concern I was trying to illustrate is that you might need to be careful in your shifter selection. If you run a triple up front, the spacing between a 9 speed triple and 10 speed triple may differ, meaning the shifter and der could require a matched set. Then again, maybe the SRAM engineer, not Jamie the rep, was talking abut the 2x10 front spacing.

Bottom line is the engineer was not approachable about any questions, even stated the dimension between chainrings was somewhat proprietary, which is a joke since it is easily measured, and in general had an anti tandem attitude.

Ultimately I can see us someday going to a 2 x 10 on our Co-Mo with a full right side drive. Mountain wise, we have no plans for the 10 speed stuff.

Building your new bike, yes the chain is narrower. On paper this amounts to less bearing surface, which should equal more wear. Ultimately though, a good chain with quality materials should last a reasonable amount of time.

I have not seen a post from you yet on BikeForums about this. Those guys get pretty geeked out over this stuff, but when asked correctly, maybe one of the teams can give you the exact number of crank revolutions they logged to get a .01mm of wear on their pristine unobtainium custom sized and spec'd rocket. Seriously, I would send a PM to USPSPRO and see how they are dealing with this. FWIW, I assume they run 10sp, but maybe not. He and his stoker seem to put in a lot of miles with a bunch of climbing, plus he doesn't seem to get worked up about the technical stuff, ride it, wear it out, replace it.

Maybe comparing your results with others will show a similar trend. Ultimately though, we know parts do wear out.

PK


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## Dr. Paul Proteus (Sep 26, 2004)

SRAM's pretty open on specs for their stuff,

http://www.sram.com/sites/default/f...rame_fit_specs_gen_000000002876_-_rev_c_0.pdf

Surprised that they just didn't point you there. Everything you ever wanted to know about fitting SRAM 10 speed onto your bike is right there on their website under "service"


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## andy a (Nov 14, 2007)

interesting that you are having good luck with 10sp on the mtb tandem. We tried it on the road tandem for TT nats in 2009 and had a ton of trouble with shifting reliabilty/ accuracy.... but maybe that was just me. When i put the 9 speed back on i got it set up and shifting perfectly in 2 minutes. I was thinking this might have something to do with the cable run length and the slight amount of "slop" associated with such a long run. 

The best part about 10sp is the smaller jumps between gear sizes if you are using the same size cassette... this is appealing.... 

I have heard that sram is working on a 10sp grip shift system. In fact , someone told me that the guy who won the xc world championship recently was riding a 10sp twist shift proto type... but i have not had time to verify that bit of second hand gossip. Personally i like trigger shift on the rear and twist shift for the front derailleur. 

As far as wear time... after running 10sp on my single mtb this season I think I can say that the durability is very similar between 9 and 10 speed hardware. Maybe the 10sp wears *slightly* faster, but not by much.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Dr. Paul Proteus said:


> SRAM's pretty open on specs for their stuff,
> 
> http://www.sram.com/sites/default/f...rame_fit_specs_gen_000000002876_-_rev_c_0.pdf
> 
> Surprised that they just didn't point you there. Everything you ever wanted to know about fitting SRAM 10 speed onto your bike is right there on their website under "service"


Seriously, thanks for the link / info. I may have seen the earlier version (2010) a while back. The 2011 version has a lot of info.

It's possible since this was much earlier in the year, and the document shows a copyright of 2011 that it was not yet released.

Going back to the chains, it does list minimum tensile strength of over 2000 pounds. Numbers shown are the same for 9 & 10. How will it wear or setup is something else altogether.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

andy a said:


> interesting that you are having good luck with 10sp on the mtb tandem. We tried it on the road tandem for TT nats in 2009 and had a ton of trouble with shifting reliabilty/ accuracy.... but maybe that was just me. When i put the 9 speed back on i got it set up and shifting perfectly in 2 minutes. I was thinking this might have something to do with the cable run length and the slight amount of "slop" associated with such a long run.
> 
> The best part about 10sp is the smaller jumps between gear sizes if you are using the same size cassette... this is appealing....
> 
> ...


Andy, if you do hear more about 10 speed twist stuff could you post a quick info here.

Thanks
PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

PMK said:


> Andy, if you do hear more about 10 speed twist stuff could you post a quick info here.
> 
> Thanks
> PK


It appears to be coming...

http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-shifters-derailleurs-cranks/10-speed-grip-shifters-736053.html


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> It appears to be coming...
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-shifters-derailleurs-cranks/10-speed-grip-shifters-736053.html


Ironically, the change for an already in production item should be the twisting grip assembly and gear indicator. I would suspect all the rest could still be retained, molds, small parts, housing and clamp.

Time will tell.

PK


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

ds2199 said:


> My question really lends itself to durability.


FWIW: After a year-plus riding 3x9 as hard as we could, we found that the typical drive setup (der/cassette) simply is not up to the rigors of tandem riding. Way too much time/$ spent adjusting, repairing, replacing. We broke chains, bent cassette teeth and wore out drive parts to the point that I could never imagine loading one up and riding for days in the b/c.

We'll see how the Rohloff compares. We just got back on it. Excellent so far (two rides in).

Mike


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## chernichovsky (Mar 11, 2011)

Glad to hear this
I'm just fabricating a tandem for a Rohlof
After an amazing experience with it on a custom 29ER


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Still off topic I guess...

Our Rohloff continues to impress. We set ours up with a low gear that's out of the recommended range, but it's been fantastic on the few more rides we've gotten on it since last report. We might go lower still. One of these days I'll snap some pix and drop em in the Fandango thread.

Cheers,

Mike


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## Radlwolf (Oct 28, 2011)

seven speed is enough, i think.


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## Team Fubar Rider (Sep 3, 2003)

PMK said:


> Ironically, the change for an already in production item should be the twisting grip assembly and gear indicator. I would suspect all the rest could still be retained, molds, small parts, housing and clamp.


When I spoke with a Sram rep at Leadville I was told they're revamping the GS completely, making it XX quality. It is to be tentatively made of metal (not plastic) and turn on a bearing as opposed to just plastic on plastic.

On a side note, I have a friend that works for Sram in a higher-up capacity and I was told there is some "in-fighting" (my words, not his) within the company regarding GS. Some people don't want it, other "old-timers" say it is what it made Sram and they need to have it.

With the fact that GS is being spec'd on a lot of Fat Bikes, the OEM side of things might be what actually saves this product.


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## Lipster94 (Oct 14, 2009)

Your not gonna want a heavy inefficient rholloff hub clanking around in the back of your bike. And all these shifting problems you guys are talking about is lack of proper set up. Got nothing to do with any 10 speed drive train. Think about it if it's as bad as you guys are portraying it then why would it even exist?
Or be the number one drivetrain on all things bicycle?!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Team Fubar Rider said:


> When I spoke with a Sram rep at Leadville I was told they're revamping the GS completely, making it XX quality. It is to be tentatively made of metal (not plastic) and turn on a bearing as opposed to just plastic on plastic.
> 
> On a side note, I have a friend that works for Sram in a higher-up capacity and I was told there is some "in-fighting" (my words, not his) within the company regarding GS. Some people don't want it, other "old-timers" say it is what it made Sram and they need to have it.
> 
> With the fact that GS is being spec'd on a lot of Fat Bikes, the OEM side of things might be what actually saves this product.


If you hear more please post or pm. The obvious option is to use an existing GS housing, machine or mold a 10 detent pipe with the cam, and install it into a 9sp GS housing.

PK


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Lipster94 said:


> Think about it if it's as bad as you guys are portraying it then why would it even exist?
> Or be the number one drivetrain on all things bicycle?!


How's that Koolaid? What flavor did you get?

The discussions regarding the reasons for 10sp are long and established.

Please realize you're posting in a tandem forum and that tandems will expose weaknesses in parts above most other styles of riding. To lump everyone's bad experiences into the "you don't know how to set 'em up" camp is disingenuous.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

_Originally Posted by Lipster94 
Think about it if it's as bad as you guys are portraying it then why would it even exist?
Or be the number one drivetrain on all things bicycle?!_​


Okayfine said:


> How's that Koolaid? What flavor did you get?
> 
> The discussions regarding the reasons for 10sp are long and established.
> 
> Please realize you're posting in a tandem forum and that tandems will expose weaknesses in parts above most other styles of riding. To lump everyone's bad experiences into the "you don't know how to set 'em up" camp is disingenuous.


Ditto what he Okayfine said. The question is not, "does 10sp work"? The question is, "do tandems put enough additional stress on the narrower spacing (both cassette and chain) to warrant concern?" I believe the answer is, "it depends".

FWIW, we will likely use SRAM 10sp trigger shifters on our new tandem. I just wish we could get the rest of our parts so that we can build the darn thing!!! :madman:

I have had great luck with 10sp on our 29er tandem. But my hypothesis is that 10sp wears a little quicker than 9sp. Of course, regardless of 8sp, 9sp or 10sp, you need to keep your drivetrain clean and lubed - yes, we know.

Some stronger teams have folded cassettes and broken chains, this has not been our experience. It would seem that we are not as strong as others or use more finesse in shifting, or a combination of the two.


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

Im currently running 9spd on my El Testigo and 10spd on my SC Blur carbon. I really like the 10spd, and Im considering converting the tandem, but some reservations are with the cranks. I can run 2 chainrings of our choice of size, but think a 3x10 would be better, offering a huge granny gear..22-36.
I'll be riding the tandem with my 8 year old son, so a broader range of gears would be appreciated.
Some possible negetives are the cassette, thickness of 10spd cogs, vs. 9 spd, chain strength, etc.
But since we are due for a drivetrain upgrade, I'll swithch to 10spd and take our chances


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## Sam Jones (Feb 25, 2005)

I've never tried 10 speed casettes on any bike. My concern is not so much with the strength of the chain as it is with the reduced distance between each of the cogs. Like most of us, I've had bikes with 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 speed casettes. Most of mine have had Barcons. I still have one bike with 7 speed 13-34 casette and Barcons ane it shifts MUCH better than any of my 9 speeds with 11-34 and 12-36 casettes. It seems obvious to me that the more closely spaced cogs will be mush less forgiving of minor "misadjustments" in cable length, less than perfectly lubed or routed cables, etc. 

The one place I'd worry about strength is the larger cogs, since I've bent them on several ocassions on 9 speeds and maybe I'm wrong but I THINK the 10 speed cogs are thinner?

My 7 speed Trek 728 was recently totaled and I've been trying to find a good 9 speed bike that isn't race type geometry but not having much luck.


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