# Why does Kona continually rely on the 4 bar system?



## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

http://www.nsmb.com/page/s/2921/dew-files-5

Saw this video and thought it was interesting.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

Because its free?


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

Because they have for years and why change a system if it still works just fine?


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## dropmachine.com (Apr 8, 2004)

Kind of a strange video to put out, since Konas technically ARE single pivots, and I don't beleive the are true 4 bars either. 

That said, I still like how they ride, so you can call it whatever you want.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

They specifically made a point of pointing out that its NOT a single pivot. Whether it's true or not I don't know, but Kona says it's not.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

Jim311 said:


> They specifically made a point of pointing out that its NOT a single pivot. Whether it's true or not I don't know, but Kona says it's not.


Mostly because there is more than one pivot, so technically he is right


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## dropmachine.com (Apr 8, 2004)

Remove the seatstay, and voila, single pivot. The rest just acts to stiffen things up (which works), and drive the shock linkage (which also works.)

But the wheelpath is exactly that of a single pivot. What I can't figure out is why they are trying to hard to avoid that, its not like its something to be embarrased about. I love how Konas ride.


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

Can we really be discussing this video, and only talking about suspension?

How about that stellar script, and the amazing acting?


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Lame..


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## dhtahoe (Mar 18, 2004)

I love the part "almost all race cars use 4-bar still". Last time I looked a race car had an engine and you didn't have to pedal the damn thing. I mean come on what was the driving force behind all the new style linkage bikes. You have to pedal and brake in the rough while still pedaling. A car also has a more constant power load and not a human pedaling squares.


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## mark03 (Jan 17, 2008)

That movie was fing terrible.


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## Ojai Bicyclist (Nov 4, 2005)

...and people complain about Specialized spewing marketing BS. Longer links for longer bearing life and lateral stiffness? Really?


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## amannil (Feb 16, 2009)

This Is Why


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## amannil (Feb 16, 2009)

And my all time favorite Here


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## IrSc (Dec 11, 2008)

I guess with kona either you love them or you hate them.
I love them, they are pretty much the only bike I have owned and I have never had a problem.
I dont really care if the 4 bar is old, I like the ride.


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## Nick_M2R (Oct 18, 2008)

Anit nothing wrong with 4 bar, put a good and properly setup shock in there and it functions fine. I have a stinky, and its my do all bike, XC, DJ, FR and DH. I dont have a problem with pedal bob. And id like to see a FR bike thats been around longer than a stinky


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

always a good idea to market tomake your stuff look good


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## irish_sloth (Nov 23, 2007)

those kona markering vids are horrible.


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## RJJ (Jul 19, 2006)

*Kona not true 4 bar at all*

Dropmachine is right, Kona are single pivot bikes, and there is nothing wrong with that, so I don't quite know why they are trying so hard to claim something else. It is far more important how well a particular suspension technology is executed, than the actual type it is. Sure on a certain level Kona are right, they may have four bars, but in suspension mechanics, it is not the amount of bars, but the position of the axle on those bars that defines the suspension type, and Kona engineers will know that.

For some reason many single pivot bike manufacturers go out of their way to say they are something else (Kona, Trek etc.), where in reality they are single pivots with a linkage shock activation (sometimes confusingly referred to as faux bar!). And, by many accounts (though I've not ridden them) companies like Trek execute this design very well.

I think this inferiority complex around single pivot v four bar is mainly a problem for US bike companies where, due to US patent protection from Spesh, very few companies can sell 4 bar designs with long chain stays (Specialized, Ellesworth, others?), whereas in Europe, literally dozens of manufacturers sell bikes with this type of Horst Link design (Canyon, Red Bull, Boardman, etc.) so giving them no special marketing advantage.

It should be remembered that designs like VPP and DW are indeed also four bar designs, (just with a very short first linkage). As a consequence to the Spesh US patent issue, those companies that can sell true 4 bar in this design for the US market, really big up the concept as superior, (and in many ways it is at a theoretical level, as with any true 4 bar the axle path can be engineered to form more complex shapes, beyond a single pivot's semi circle) causing the others to act defensively and in my opinion, slightly disingenuously.


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## Iranian-Mechanic (May 6, 2004)

Technically yes its single pivot . 
Why very easy : The Rear axel is connected to the front Tri. ( the solid part of the frame) via only one pivot. 
The way wheel travels and acts during its travel is single pivot. But Forces are shifted and progressed till they reach the shock through the 4 bar system .

You know it’s a very very complicated program to talk about suspension systems . None are completely better than another . But each has its pros and cons . So each system would be preferred for a type of ridding and terrain .


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## clockwork (Dec 9, 2006)

amannil said:


> This Is Why


Thats all about the rider and not the bike. Put Fabine on another bike and he will shred just as hard.


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## Orange-Goblin (Jan 27, 2008)

Fail.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

RJJ said:


> For some reason many single pivot bike manufacturers go out of their way to say they are something else (Kona, Trek etc.), where in reality they are single pivots with a linkage shock activation (sometimes confusingly referred to as faux bar!). And, by many accounts (though I've not ridden them) companies like Trek execute this design very well.
> .


The only reason you believe this is due to a whole bunch of BS marketing that Specialized put out years ago, to make people believe that only they made the "true 4-bar" bike.

In other words, only specialized associated "FSR" and "Horst link" with "4-bar", once they put out all those adds and propagada, people started believing it.

Before that time (and hopefully after) a 4-bar just had to have 4 parts. It had a frame-member, and 3 bars required for shock actuation. This is why it was called a "4-bar", and there are multitudes of ways to pull it off. There are even 6-bar bikes out there, the later schwinn lawill designs, astrix, knolly, and others. Those bikes usually incorperate a 2nd linkage to further adjust the shock rate.

Kona has always been a "4-bar" design, but specialized has done their marketing job well. People seem to think that calling it a "4-bar" somehow has something to do with whether it's a single pivot or not. All "4-bar" meant was that a certain bike was a "linkage" bike, and not a single pivot with no linkages or mac-strut type design.

Once you consider the mac-strut FSR bikes, this whole "true 4-bar" thing really falls apart, as those bikes are horst-link bikes, but they don't have "4 bars". Once again, just marketing BS from specialized.


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## Nickle (Aug 23, 2006)

Jayem, I see where you are coming from. You're saying that if it has four bars, it is "4-bar," right? I see your logic and where you are getting it from, but it is incorrect. dropmachine.com was spot on with his above posts. Konas are single pivots with a seat stay to control shock actuation and to increase stiffness. But it's still an unquestionable single pivot. The axle path rotates around a fixed point in a perfect arc. Regardless of how many linkages a manufacturer puts into a design to increase stiffness, manipulate leverage ratios, etc., if the wheel rotates around a single, fixed point in a perfect arc, it's a single pivot. And a single pivot design is nothing to be ashamed about.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Nickle said:


> But it's still an unquestionable single pivot.


Where did I say that it wasn't a single pivot?  The term 4-bar had NOTHING to do with whether a bike was a single-pivot or not. It had everything to do if it used a linkage design to control the shock rate. This before specialized put out their propaganda though...

As I said, Specialized has put out the propaganda over the years to make people believe that "4-bar" = "FSR".

It begs the old question, "does something become 'true' if you repeat it enough times?". Whether or not the "new" definition of 4-bar is FSR, Kona is well within their rights to call their bikes "4-bars" IMO.

Before specialized came up with the absolutely genius idea of calling their bike the only "true 4-bar" and invented the term "faux bar", "4-bar" had nothing to do with which "bar" the wheel was mounted to.


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## primo661 (Jan 6, 2009)

Ojai Bicyclist said:


> ...and people complain about Specialized spewing marketing BS. Longer links for longer bearing life and lateral stiffness? Really?


Ever heard of tolerance stacking?


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

primo661 said:


> Ever heard of tolerance stacking?


Yes, and how does having longer links help you with that?


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## primo661 (Jan 6, 2009)

I was being sarcastic;-) Lets wait for an engineer to explain how it all works. Personally I'm not into the whole arguing online thing though. Try it. If you like it, use it and if you dont, then dont use it.


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

primo661 said:


> Personally I'm not into the whole arguing online thing though. Try it. If you like it, use it and if you dont, then dont use it.


Yeah, sure, people can argue all they want about definitions. That's mostly all that's going on here.

Kona can market things however they want, but I know what a 4 bar linkage is, and I can see what member the axle is connected to on a Kona bike.

In the end, if the bike rides well, shred it.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

rkj__ said:


> Kona can market things however they want, but I know what a 4 bar linkage is, and I can see what member the axle is connected to on a Kona bike.


I give up. Specialized wins.


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## tomsmoto (Oct 6, 2007)

google four bar linkage in the engineering sense. the actual definition used by engineers. konas are four bars, jayem is spot on.


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## Nozes (Feb 18, 2008)

Single pivot on the rear axle path.
Not single pivot on the working of the shock.
Am I right?
Still,the Stab is the the best momentum-carriyng DH bike I ever rode,don't know if it's the suspension,Ringlé hub or something else,but the thing does feel like it's got a little engine inside


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## Pedal Shop (Dec 14, 2006)

Good video posted to another thread:

http://www.konaworld.com/dope.htm


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## Raptordude (Mar 30, 2004)

Because Kona is stuck in 1998.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Pedal Shop said:


> Good video posted to another thread:
> 
> http://www.konaworld.com/dope.htm


cool both ways


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## deeboy (Jan 26, 2004)

There are two parts to this, which has different answers. Marketing determines what is better or not.


Jayen is correct, the system is a 4 bar system ( if you disregard where the axel is)

rkj is correct that it is a single pivot when ONLY focusing on the axel position

Both are correct & wrong depending on what you want to leave out. 
Konas single pivot axel path is part of a 4 bar linkage to drive the shock.

Konas do feel great, i loved years of them. But i find my DW Link 6point better.


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## Ojai Bicyclist (Nov 4, 2005)

Deeboy is correct. 

It's a 4-bar in a physical sense.

It behaves like a single-pivot with regards to the axle path.

Is it really that hard guise?


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

Ojai Bicyclist said:


> Is it really that hard guise?


To me it is really simple. Unfortunately, not everyone is very intuitive when it comes to mechanics, and their opinions are easily swayed by marketing.



Jayem said:


> I give up. Specialized wins.


I sense that you may have misinterpreted my post. I did not say that Konas don't have a four bar linkage.


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## schneidie (Aug 30, 2008)

I've ridden both FSR (Intense Uzzi SLX) and Kona's "four bar" (stinky) and I don't give a rat's ass either way. A bike is a bike, and you should ride whatever feels good. For FR/DH i love my stinky, but for all mountain, gotta have the uzzi, mainly based on weight. Once I got both bikes dialed, I can;t notice a big difference in suspension feel. Honestly, how much does moving the pivot maybe an inch around the axle make in terms of wheel path? Plus, going downhill (which is the fun part) who cares if you have bob or not?


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Jayem said:


> I give up. Specialized wins.


I think people get hung up on the fact that a 4-bar linkage system can be applied in both a Horst link and single pivot style suspension. They would also be shocked to be told that a DW link, Maestro, VPP, and any other short link suspension system is a 4-bar linkage setup as well.

It's just hard to understand that a single pivot can be a 4-bar after the Spesh marketing campaign. Don't worry, Spesh didn't win, they just muddled the subject sufficiently to confuse everyone (myself included for a while).


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## darkzeon (Jun 15, 2006)

Yuck! So my bike sucks huh? Oh well.


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

Clutchman83 said:


> I think people get hung up on the fact that a 4-bar linkage system can be applied in both a Horst link and single pivot style suspension. They would also be shocked to be told that a DW link, Maestro, VPP, and any other short link suspension system is a 4-bar linkage setup as well.


I think some people would also be surprised when the count the number of "bars" on a Gary Fisher Sugar.


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## Cabdoctor (Jun 22, 2006)

People spend so much time discussing suspension design what's better, what sucks. I really think people would be amazed if they did a little research about tuning a shock and spent a good day just adjusting hi/lo compresion and rebound. That's why guys like Minaar are able to jump from a single pivot to a VPP and still rock. Or Hill can jump from a DW link(4 bar) to FSR (different 4 bar) and still rock. It's because they're willing to dial and dial and dial until their suspension feels spot on! It's not like their job depends on it or something.....


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## Cabdoctor (Jun 22, 2006)

The other thing is people get all butt hurt about 4bar vs Single vs whatever. But people have to realize there is a huge difference when refering to axle path versus shock actuation. Really when you look at it Kona, Turner (pre 09), Chumba, heck even trek's session 88 and way old school Intense m1 (before they went horst) all have basically the same axle path. and arc around a pivot. But the shock actuation is very different. Does that mean a night and day difference, yes, if they're all running the same shock with the same settings. Some are raising rate others are falling rate. But that's why we have Vivids, DHXs, Double Barrels, etc. These allow us to tune each parameter to the type of shock curve we're dealing with. So I really think tuning make more of a difference than anything


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## scabrider (Oct 3, 2004)

the acting was very pornoesque...


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## Pas de Dopage (Apr 16, 2009)

Raptordude said:


> Because Kona is stuck in 1998.


That's such a BS response.

I don't know why people hate on Kona so much, when companies like Specialized have been using the FSR design for 15 years. 15 years! Why aren't the same people who bash Kona complaining about Specialized? After using it since 1994, Specialized bought all the Horst patents in 1998, so who's stuck in '98?

People are really gullible though, and when a giant, shiny marketing campaign, cooked up by some saavy ad men, tells them _this_ design sucks and _that_ design rules, they believe them. "Look we changed the position of the shock this year. Now your bike sucks and you have to buy a _new_ one! Gee Whiz!"

Kona = bicycle company
Specialized = marketing/advertising company


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## rsullivan (May 16, 2009)

*With all the .....*

talk about "4 bar this and single pivot that" I guess it is time for me to sell my Dawg and jump on the bandwagon and buy a bike that satisfies the boutique group....

Any takers on taking this off my hands..... :devil: 

















Just kidding... It ain't going anywhere.. I love the way it rides...:rockon: four bar/single pivots

Sorry... shameless repost of my Dawg... I just like the bike sooooo much!!! LoL


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## Pas de Dopage (Apr 16, 2009)

Sick bike! That's gotta be custom painted hey?

I love my new Kona Hei-Hei Supreme. I was the biggest bandwagon jumper in terms of believing the hype of the big "bicycle" (*cough* marketing *cough*) companies. I had a Specialized Epic and I thought I loved it. It wasn't until I tried a buddies Hei-Hei that I realized what love was...

That's when I realized that the size 19 Kona, which is between a medium and large Specialized, fit me perfectly. The bike is the same retail cost ('09 Hei-Hei Supreme v '09 Epic Expert Carbon) but it is 3 pounds lighter, full XTR and other than the wheels, it's pretty standard equipment. No proprietary tapered steerers with recessed bearing races. No AFR/Futureshock with Brain technology to break... My other friend had an S-Works Epic, but gave up on it after the third AFR shock/brain failure _and_ his fork brain failed _and_ the Roval wheelset broke. All in the same race... He put it on eBay the next day.


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## rsullivan (May 16, 2009)

Pas de Dopage said:


> Sick bike! That's gotta be custom painted hey?
> 
> I love my new Kona Hei-Hei Supreme. I was the biggest bandwagon jumper in terms of believing the hype of the big "bicycle" (*cough* marketing *cough*) companies. I had a Specialized Epic and I thought I loved it. It wasn't until I tried a buddies Hei-Hei that I realized what love was...
> 
> That's when I realized that the size 19 Kona, which is between a medium and large Specialized, fit me perfectly. The bike is the same retail cost ('09 Hei-Hei Supreme v '09 Epic Expert Carbon) but it is 3 pounds lighter, full XTR and other than the wheels, it's pretty standard equipment. No proprietary tapered steerers with recessed bearing races. No AFR/Futureshock with Brain technology to break... My other friend had an S-Works Epic, but gave up on it after the third AFR shock/brain failure _and_ his fork brain failed _and_ the Roval wheelset broke. All in the same race... He put it on eBay the next day.


Yea custom powder... I did my 6year old sons bmx race bike this color and liked it so much I did my Kona with it.... Made my boy happy to have a bike the same color as dad:thumbsup:


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## 4JawChuck (Dec 1, 2008)

The whole suspension marketing nonsense is geared to young people who haven't been around long enough to know any better. I've ridden many VPP bikes and the pedal kickback really turned me off and all I could see was all those little links getting slightly worn in a couple of years and the bike becoming a loose goose to ride. To be honest I kind of like a suspension that reacts as I step on the pedals, I can easily tune out bob with low speed compression anyway.

A lot of it comes down to looks, a VPP bike has a lot going for it from the sexy department and a faux bar like Konas looks antiquated...but it works. I think Treks single pivot on the new Sessions and Fuels is the first real advance made in the industry since they moved away from hockey puck elastomers and looks nice also, moving the shock from two directions is so simple and effective and having the pivot at the rear axle is pure simplicity...enough so that I bought one.

Still waiting for purple anodizing and neon headbands to make a big comeback...mark my words...it will.


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

I always used to be jealous of all those other bikes while I was riding only Kona. Now that I've tried the others, I can really appreciate how well Paddy and Dew do the faux bar designs.


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

clockwork said:


> Thats all about the rider and not the bike. Put Fabine on another bike and he will shred just as hard.


Imagine if he shredded even HARDER... :eekster: :eekster:

(Mondraker Summun...yummy....  ).


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## Nick_M2R (Oct 18, 2008)

Pas de Dopage
Kona = bicycle company
Specialized = marketing/advertising company[/QUOTE said:


> Not Quite
> 
> Kona = Bicycle company
> Specialized = Corporate bully and makers of shockingly over priced bikes and only interested in profit for themselves, and a marketing/advertising company...
> ...


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## dwnhlldav (Feb 2, 2006)

Nick_M2R said:


> Not Quite
> 
> Kona = Bicycle company
> Specialized = Corporate bully and makers of shockingly over priced bikes and only interested in profit for themselves, and a marketing/advertising company...


I love this 

Every single bike company out there is in it just to make money. There is no other reason to have a business. People pick the bike business because they'd rather sell something they love then something they could care less about. Specialized is just very good at selling their product. 15 years ago it was Trek that was the bully/marketing machine. Specialized just got better at selling their brand.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Great Scott Marty


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

Its simply a fact of business that company A will try to tell prospective customers that its product is better than that of company B.

The only thing that bothers me really is the fact that spec manages to maintain a patent in the US that the rest of the world has decided is public domain.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

essenmeinstuff said:


> Its simply a fact of business that company A will try to tell prospective customers that its product is better than that of company B.
> 
> The only thing that bothers me really is the fact that spec manages to maintain a patent in the US that the rest of the world has decided is public domain.


Can you blame them? They're milking every dime out of that patent, they're no different than any other company. I'd do the same thing if I could hold the patent on something. Once it's "public domain" there is no longer any profitability.


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## neverwalk (May 14, 2005)

Kind of the whole point about bothering with a patent at all isn't it?
Nothing evil, just smart business.
The rest of the world seeing it as public domain, is just operating in a place that doesn't recognize our patent laws. Doesn't mean the S doesn't own the technology.


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

Jim311 said:


> Can you blame them? They're milking every dime out of that patent, they're no different than any other company. I'd do the same thing if I could hold the patent on something. Once it's "public domain" there is no longer any profitability.


So a company that makes bikes without a patent has NO profitability? "That don't make no sense". What about Kona for example? There's no patent on the "public domain" faux bar and I bet they make a little moolah.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Can't we all agree to disagree? Jeeeez...


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

neverwalk said:


> The rest of the world seeing it as public domain, is just operating in a place that doesn't recognize our patent laws. Doesn't mean the S doesn't own the technology.


The rest of the world, which is really everyone BUT the US, has decided that this is not something that is patentable since it has existed in many forms (for example in cars) before specialized even existed, hence the bountiful choice of bikes in the EU etc with "horst link" suspension.

Not to worry, the patent will expire sometime in 2012 I believe :thumbsup:


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

essenmeinstuff said:


> The rest of the world, which is really everyone BUT the US, has decided that this is not something that is patentable since it has existed in many forms (for example in cars) before specialized even existed, hence the bountiful choice of bikes in the EU etc with "horst link" suspension.
> 
> Not to worry, the patent will expire sometime in 2012 I believe :thumbsup:


Which shall be very interesting to watch! Several things could happen:

A. Turns out the Horst link really is THAT good, thus a whole bunch of companies that could not afford/did not want to pay the Spesh royalties will suddenly start making frames with Horst links.

B. The Horst link is really not better nor worse, but the great public still believes it is a far superior design. See outcome A.

C.The Horst link is really not better nor worse, and the great public no longer believes it is a far superior design. So we get no Horst link Konas, Evils, Transitions, Cove, Morewoods, etc, etc, etc

D. Everybody in the US will stop bothering with all that other stuff and buy a Lapierre DH920.

E. In all of the above cases, the VPP companies will keep selling the VPP, and the VPP riders will keep buying it. Anything else is like expecting all the world's Nikon photog's to suddenly buy a Canon. Ain't gonna happen dude.


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## IrSc (Dec 11, 2008)

I have ridden other bikes, ones that I thought could possibly be better then Kona, but in the end I keep coming back. Every REAL MTB I have owned has been a kona, and I just love the ride. I honestly dont care if people believe them to be stuck in past, I will always buy kona!


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## StinkyFTW (Jun 29, 2008)

I'm on my second Kona, and like a few others have said, they really don't need to change it.. Kona is pretty much known for being a 4 bar company, well, at least to guys that ride full suspension bikes, I don't know about roadies. Anyway, despite the system being dated and suffering from brake jack, it works very well. Complicated linkage bikes like the BMW mean more bearings/stuff to break, and more maintenance. Blah blah blah, in short, 4 bar works well, and Kona has no reason to change it up.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

gticlay said:


> So a company that makes bikes without a patent has NO profitability? "That don't make no sense". What about Kona for example? There's no patent on the "public domain" faux bar and I bet they make a little moolah.


Quote me where I said that. You totally put those words in my mouth. Things are MORE profitable when you hold a patent, because nobody has a choice but to buy it from you...


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

StinkyFTW said:


> I'm on my second Kona, and like a few others have said, they really don't need to change it.. Kona is pretty much known for being a 4 bar company, well, at least to guys that ride full suspension bikes, I don't know about roadies. Anyway, despite the system being dated and suffering from brake jack, it works very well. Complicated linkage bikes like the BMW mean more bearings/stuff to break, and more maintenance. Blah blah blah, in short, 4 bar works well, and Kona has no reason to change it up.


Kona apparently does have a reason to change it, because they have several new models with the "Magic Link"

That's not to say that their old 4 bar bikes don't ride good, though. I ride one myself.


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## rsullivan (May 16, 2009)

Jim311 said:


> Kona apparently does have a reason to change it, because they have several new models with the "Magic Link"
> 
> That's not to say that their old 4 bar bikes don't ride good, though. I ride one myself.


It is still a 4 bar type with a "Brain" (as Spec. likes to call it) but I like it


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## cesslinger (Oct 23, 2008)

Jim311 said:


> Kona apparently does have a reason to change it, because they have several new models with the "Magic Link"
> 
> That's not to say that their old 4 bar bikes don't ride good, though. I ride one myself.


My CoilRepair was destroyed. Kona warranty gave me an 08 Stinky Deluxe as a replacement.

The Stinky is a monster truck and I like it. Really though, it is a monster truck; I landed in a boulder field last weekend and didn't even get bucked off the bike. Ask Sixty.


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## tomsmoto (Oct 6, 2007)

rsullivan said:


> It is still a 4 bar type with a "Brain" (as Spec. likes to call it) but I like it


i dont know what to call it.. it doesnt have a single pivot/linkage driven wheel path at all. it grows, it shrinks, it slackens, it steepens. theres just nothing on the market like it at all. kona went from crusty old single pivots to something really never seen before.


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## StinkyFTW (Jun 29, 2008)

Jim311 said:


> Kona apparently does have a reason to change it, because they have several new models with the "Magic Link"
> 
> That's not to say that their old 4 bar bikes don't ride good, though. I ride one myself.


Well that's still essentially a 4 bar, it just has that second coil to change the leverage.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

StinkyFTW said:


> Well that's still essentially a 4 bar, it just has that second coil to change the leverage.


Its actually a pretty cool system.

Pedal and the pivot moves forward, shortening chain stays, reducing travel steepening up the HA.

Coast and it sits in a neutral position.

Hit the brakes and the pivot moves backward, increasing travel slacking out the HA and lengthening the bike a little. Kinda like anti dive, and would feel quite nice on sketchy steeps I imagine, esp if the geo was more aimed at xc in "normal" mode.

It would be even more interesting with floating brake. Definitely a lot of variables to play with that could lead to quite versatile bikes.

Albeit at the cost of extra complexity and likely weight.


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## 317000 (Mar 2, 2007)

I bet no one on this entire website has ever even experienced "brake jack". 

Fork dive? Brake sqaut? Maybe a select few. Back Jack...nope.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

dowst said:


> I bet no one on this entire website has ever even experienced "brake jack".
> 
> Fork dive? Brake sqaut? Maybe a select few. Back Jack...nope.


What, cause you've been riding for 2 years or something?

Got news for you, some of us have experienced it all. My current bike even rises up a bit during braking, not terribly, but if you know what brake jack means you can probably guess what kind of suspension system it is (or maybe not?).

Fork dive and brake squat are not experienced by a select few, it would be most everyone, unless they have a linkage-fork, and unless they have a floating brake/non-jacking suspension.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

I definitely feel brake jack on both of my Konas, but I manage it accordingly. Just takes some getting used to. You just have to realize that it's shortcomings are there, and adjust accordingly. Either brake a bit earlier or take it a bit easier on hard braking in tough terrain, otherwise the rear wheel starts to pack up and skip across the terrain. It's a pretty minor issue to me, and one that can be remedied with a relatively cheap linkage I guess.


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

Are you guys feeling brake jack or more like the bike just stiffens up? I've never, ever had a bike literally jack up or stinkbug. It just gets stiffer and 'skips across the terrain' as Jimbo put it.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

gticlay said:


> Are you guys feeling brake jack or more like the bike just stiffens up? I've never, ever had a bike literally jack up or stinkbug. It just gets stiffer and 'skips across the terrain' as Jimbo put it.


My old bullit would definitely stinkbug under the right conditions. Fast, rocky downhill turns while braking....lookout!


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

Khemical said:


> My old bullit would definitely stinkbug under the right conditions. Fast, rocky downhill turns while braking....lookout!


Not a Kona though, right?


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

gticlay said:


> Not a Kona though, right?


Not Kona no, but still single pivot. High-pivot vs. Low-pivot.


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

Khemical said:


> Not Kona no, but still single pivot. High-pivot vs. Low-pivot.


Having had many Konas and a Heckler, I think that braking tends to do what you say more on the high pivot than the low pivot but I don't have a big study to support that or anything.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Jim311 said:


> I definitely feel brake jack on both of my Konas


No, you do not. Brake jack is physically impossible on your kona.

What you feel is brake-squat, where the rear end compresses and stiffens. Brake jack is where the rear end extends and stiffens.


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## Quarashi (Aug 23, 2006)

According to my rudimentary knowledge on rear suspension. Brake jack will occur if the pivot point is too low and the rear wheel travel is forward and not rear ward. Is this true?

I have a high single pivot and there is a ton of brake squat. Personally I love it. My rear brake lever become like "stabalize my bike now" button.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Quarashi said:


> According to my rudimentary knowledge on rear suspension. Brake jack will occur if the pivot point is too low and the rear wheel travel is forward and not rear ward. Is this true?
> 
> I have a high single pivot and there is a ton of brake squat. Personally I love it. My rear brake lever become like "stabalize my bike now" button.


No, brake jack will not happen in that situation, and it is pretty rare these days in the bike world. Brake squat will happen when the caliper rotates forward with respect to the contact patch, brake jack happens with it rotates backwards with respect to the contact patch (simple explaination).


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## headstrong356 (Feb 20, 2008)

... has it failed them... no. Is it rocket science? No.... Does it work? Yes. Then why not use faux/four bar? Personally thing like yetis 303 are just way to complicated, bottom line is it's simple and works.


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## FA-Q (Jun 10, 2008)

*Marketing, Schmarketing....*

I agree with what others have already said- it's not about patents or which suspension design you use, it's more about how well you execute the design you choose. And, proper frame fit for your body size and proper shock tuning are WAY more important than 4-bar vs faux-bar vs single-pivot, that's why top pros can switch sponsors and bikes and still shred just as fast. There may be some minor differences in horst-link ride quality vs others, but not near as major a difference as you will feel by switching to a better shock, or having a shock custom-tuned. As far as brake-jack, look at how many DH bikes used to run floating rear brakes, and how many no longer bother. The best solution for brake-jack is what the pros do - let off the brakes in the rough and just go faster!


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## dusthuffer (Nov 30, 2006)

his dudeness said:


> Because they have for years and why change a system if it still works just fine?


Because Kona love having the upper bar clank against the seat rails on all the Stinky's and Stab's from 03 to 2010 they can't get enough of it.  They love it so much they even spec the bikes with extra wide seatpost clamps to get maximum top bar-seat clamp destruction the first time the owners ride them.


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## dropmachine.com (Apr 8, 2004)

Jayem has it right. There is a huge different between brake jack, squat, and even lock. Lock is pretty rare though, where the suspension neither extends nor compresses. Konas tend to compress, not jack. Anyone that remembers the old GT LTS will know the pain of true brake jack. 

Most of you have no idea what you are talking about though, sorry to say. Konas with the FAUX BAR (old style) are single pivots, with the link arms to control the shock rate and stiffen up the rear. I havent' really looked at the new Magic links enough to really figure out what they are doing in there, but its promising. 

To those that say specialized is overpriced, you also have a lot to learn. Konas are fun to ride, but in my experience they aren't exactly works of art. They're cheap, effective, and fun. The bikes Specialized tends to push out are better made from what I've seen. Better tolerances, better paint, etc. That doesn't mean they are better bikes though, as geometry means a lot. 

Every suspension system has its benefits and negatives. Konas are essentially single pivots, so they won't clear sharp edged hits as well, unless you move the pivot up dramatically like the STAB. My Reign X deletes sharp edged hits much better then my coilair ever did. Pedals better too. But it doesn't feel as alive, and the wheelbase does extend a bit. There is also a bit of pedal feedback in granny gear, but not enough to make it unbearable (like my Nomad was). 



IMO, FSR is the best suspension system ever devised, and likely ever will be. That said, I still haven't tried DW link stuff. 


/end rant.


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## headstrong356 (Feb 20, 2008)

I don't care what you call it but the idea of rear suspension is genuis. In the end it's just a system of bars moving to accomplish one thing: move the rear wheel. So better does not mean one design with more patents than a rocket.


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## NWfreeride (Jan 23, 2007)

headstrong356 said:


> In the end it's just a system of bars moving to accomplish one thing: move the rear wheel. I don't care what you call it but the idea of rear suspension is the best. Not some one design with more patents than a rocket.


Shoot son... what are you trying to say?!


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

dropmachine.com said:


> The bikes Specialized tends to push out are better made from what I've seen. Better tolerances, better paint, etc.


Is this why they had to switch to a conical bushing for the shock after the first year of the SXT? They couldn't weld the triangle straight and couldn't get the rear shock to not blow up... so they changed bushings and then charged everybody that was having problems for an "upgrade." They've had their fair share of issues... Some Demos had play in the linkage because of tolerance problems... Some people said it was because the link was "too stiff to compress." It shouldn't have had to pinch...

Better paint? Specialized does some flashy paint jobs, but I wouldn't say "better."


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