# so Dinotte has a tail light 3X brigther than the 300R ...



## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

DAYTIME RED Taillight - 400+ Lumens seat post, seat stay, chain stay or rack mount -- DiNotte Lighting USA Online Store

and of course being Dinotte they couldn't put a lower power setting on it, and admit on their page it can only be used during the day ...

HOW DUMB IS THAT ?

why not add a 10% power setting for night use ?


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

androgen said:


> and of course being Dinotte they couldn't put a lower power setting on it, and admit on their page it can only be used during the day ...
> 
> HOW DUMB IS THAT ?
> 
> why not add a 10% power setting for night use ?


Looks like a plan to sell 2 tail lights instead of one. Might not be so dumb until another company comes out with one light that does it all. Then they'll add that feature and get some more sales as folks "upgrade".


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Vancbiker said:


> Looks like a plan to sell 2 tail lights instead of one. Might not be so dumb until another company comes out with one light that does it all. Then they'll add that feature and get some more sales as folks "upgrade".


haha, maybe !

there is already a light like this from another company - DesignShine DS-500 but it's always sold out a year in advance as he can't build enough to satisfy demand ...


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## pigmode (Nov 15, 2009)

They're taking the easy was out, reconfiguring an existing form factor. Still, I think this light will make an excellent day commuter light, and no biggie if one gets caught using it after dark once in a while. Seriously, when the sun shines directly on a rear light, even 400 Lu becomes inadequate.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

i was doing a bit of research to figure out how many lumens i want in a tail light and i came across these numbers:

traffic light incandescent bulb: 600 - 1200 lumens. this will probably lose half the lumens due to color glass in front of bulb. on the other hand modern LED traffic lights look probably 4X brighter than the old incandescent bulb ones. so i'm guessing the new traffic lights put out about 1500 lumens ( this is my guess, don't have actual data ). however traffic lights are pretty much omni-directional - they don't focus like dinotte does ...

car tail lights use a bulb that has a 400 lumen "high" filament and a 40 Lumen "low" filament. the low is used as a marker light and high as brake light. the key thing to realize here is that a car can have FOUR of these bulbs ! which means car brake lights are 1600 lumen minus loss to color glass so lets say 800 lumen. once again however - these lights are largely NOT focused but omni-directional. on the other hand again modern LED car tail lights ( factory ones, not aftermarket ) are much brighter than old incandescent tail lights. especially Mercedes E Class LED tail lights are bright as hell. 

so considering dinotte is about 4X+ more focused than either car tail lights or intersection signal lights i think the Dinotte will match the brightness of both of them at about 400 lumens, maybe less. it will be more painful to look at however because it is a smaller light source.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

OK i just had a conversation with Dinotte over the phone and i specifically called to ask them about the difference between 300R ( 150 Lumen ) 400R ( 240 Lumen ) and 400R Daytime Red ( 400 Lumen )

Specifically i wanted to know which one has a wider beam pattern. 

The daytime red has 4 x 2 = 8 LEDs instead of just 2 so i assumed it would have a wider beam pattern - but Dinotte said that actually it has a NARROWER beam pattern to maximize daytime visibility, and that each of the 8 LEDs has its own lens to achieve it. They said they don't really promote the Daytime Red because of how blinding it would be during the night.

I then asked whether 400R or 300R has a wider beam pattern, and again i assumed 300R would have a wider beam pattern because of the beam pictures i saw of 300R ( however i never seen a direct 300R to 400R comparison ) but Dinotte said that the 400R has a wider ( and brighter ) beam. 

He generally sounded as if the difference in performance level of 400R and 300R was quite significant. I know some people last year said that 300R is basically a 400R that is self-contained but Dinotte basically said that 300R is detuned from 400R quite a bit. 

They may be based on the same platform but according to Dinotte the 300R is dialed down quite a bit in order to extend battery life. Because on 300R the battery is internal once its flat you're in the dark and you can't simply grab a second battery as you can with 400R. 

So the output of 300R is apparently not limited by the light engine platform of the 400R ( i am assuming they're on the same platform, which may not be the case ) but by battery run time. Apparently they didn't want to give you an output setting that would run your battery down flat in an hour and leave you in the dark with no ability to swap a battery.

I don't know how accurate this information is, i'm just passing it on.


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## pigmode (Nov 15, 2009)

androgen said:


> i was doing a bit of research to figure out how many lumens i want in a tail light and i came across these numbers:
> 
> traffic light incandescent bulb: 600 - 1200 lumens. this will probably lose half the lumens due to color glass in front of bulb. on the other hand modern LED traffic lights look probably 4X brighter than the old incandescent bulb ones. so i'm guessing the new traffic lights put out about 1500 lumens ( this is my guess, don't have actual data ). however traffic lights are pretty much omni-directional - they don't focus like dinotte does ...
> 
> ...


Great research! And thanks a bunch for getting the scoop on the Dinotte Lumen ratings--they've been purported for a long time to be *much* higher. Kind of a pisser, actually.

In my rough estimate if the 300R is 150 Lu, then the RZ8 is not any higher.

Your comments on car rear lights: I'd like to eventually see a larger lens form factor for a bicycle rear--maybe something like 3.5" X 5", with adequately designed optics. That and the lumen ratings you mention would make for a real advance in bicycling safety. I believe for visibility bicycles need lights brighter than the brightest of car lights.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

pigmode said:


> Great research! And thanks a bunch for getting the scoop on the Dinotte Lumen ratings--they've been purported for a long time to be *much* higher. Kind of a pisser, actually.
> 
> In my rough estimate if the 300R is 150 Lu, then the RZ8 is not any higher.
> 
> Your comments on car rear lights: I'd like to eventually see a larger lens form factor for a bicycle rear--maybe something like 3.5" X 5", with adequately designed optics. That and the lumen ratings you mention would make for a real advance in bicycling safety. I believe for visibility bicycles need lights brighter than the brightest of car lights.


a 3 x 5" piece on the frame would create aerodynamic drag, and the bigger it was the more drag it would create.

but fiber optics on clothing like this:

https://gearjunkie.com/images/10261.jpg

or this:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Halo-LED-belt-cyclist.jpeg

could provide the necessary visibility without blinding anybody and without adding significantly to drag. the key is to fit the light into your wind shadow.

unfortunately i don't think this type of product is available with Dinotte-like lumens to it - i think they're all pretty dim at this point.


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## pigmode (Nov 15, 2009)

After recovering from the monstercross commuter I'm close to building, I'll probably try to get on the Designshine list.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

pigmode said:


> After recovering from the monstercross commuter I'm close to building, I'll probably try to get on the Designshine list.


DS-500 is in a class by itself depending on what you're looking for, and in my opinion for the performance it offers it isn't the slightest bit overpriced considering that nothing else is even close. You would need something like 400R + 400R Daytime Red + Red Zone 8 to beat it - and this combo would set you back ~ $600.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*Comparison Shots*

Good call androgen. Disclaiming up front that I don't have any more to sell, but I've had one DS-500 customer who also had the new daylight-only version of the 400R. I can't confirm personally, but he says the DS-500 still "looks" twice as bright. Of course some of this is just the fact that I'm fully driving 6 of the highest output XP-E Reds, but in theory, their "daylight" version should almost be just an 8x LED version of the DS-500, although I'd doubt that they're using the XP-E. So the question remains, "Why still such a difference?" I really think some of it may be in the lensing. Something "magical" happens when you combine an elliptical (flat and wide pattern) with a narrow spot... you get most all of the light where you want it most. If the daylight-only version is using spot lenses on both sides, then it will be slightly lacking in the off-angle department.

The DS-500 uses the amazingly capable MaxFlex driver, which is why it can run anywhere between 1 to 10 watts. I have no doubt that if Dinotte finds some good success with the new light, it will be worth it for them to re-design the driver for a wider range of controllability.

Here are a few pics I took a while back, showing the difference between the achieved beam patterns for both lights. The "fence" shots were with both lights at their respective highest output. To the human eye, both of the lights give a uniform red color response, but for the camera exposure I was using, the spot beam on the DS-500 actually "blew out" the exposure and created the appearance of a white-ish/yellow spot.
Cheers


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

About the above ^...

_So you're saying that your light has a more intense spot and is also wider than the DiNotte Day time Red Rear? _I am interested in actual lux measurement at distance. Do 
you have any figures?

I might actually be interested in one of your lamps but I would probably request the XP-E ( or E2) in Amber. I know that the red is actually brighter but for day only I like the idea of Amber. Since you're using a driver like the Maxflex can you tell me _what kind of flash patterns are offered with a driver like that? __Do you over-drive the emitters?_
I've been told you can do that safely as long as you don't over-do it.

If I was to buy a light like this I want the most intense throw I can get. My intention would be to attract attention from as far away as possible. Last question; _what voltage battery is used to power your lamp?_


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> _So you're saying that your light has a more intense spot and is also wider than the DiNotte Day time Red Rear? _I am interested in actual lux measurement at distance. Do
> you have any figures?
> 
> I might actually be interested in one of your lamps but I would probably request the XP-E ( or E2) in Amber. I know that the red is actually brighter but for day only I like the idea of Amber. Since you're using a driver like the Maxflex can you tell me _what kind of flash patterns are offered with a driver like that? __Do you over-drive the emitters?_
> ...


Hey Cat,
Since I haven't personally seen the daylight Dinotte, I can only go by what my customer relayed to me and make some deductions, based on my own experience. The XPE die size in combination with the Carclo triple narrow lens does make an incredibly tight and focused beam, so it doesn't surprise me too much that the DS-500 would have a more intense spot. Since they don't have an elliptical lens on the new light, I can say pretty definitively that the DS-500 is wider. Where this really comes into play is about 100 to 200 yards back. If you happen to be on a tightly curved road, the wide angle really helps a lot.

When comparing the DS-500 to the 400R this was one of the more striking differences. From about 100 yards back, I could start to walk off-angle and the 400R had a very distinct and sudden roll-off in intensity whereas the DS felt nearly constant over the same range.

No, I don't over-drive, even in flashing mode. 700mA max. It could be done, but I wanted this light to run comfortably with as little strain on the LEDs as possible, plus, with the Maxflex, there's not an option to just "slightly" overdrive.

I've had customers tell me routinely that they receive comments from drivers that they are being seen from literally a mile away in full sun in heavy traffic. The flash modes in particular more or less demand that you be seen. There are six "placeholders" in the driver memory for different flash patterns. You can control intensity, duration, repetition, and come up with some pretty wild patterns, but I've got a special firmware version of the MaxFlex that has my own "default" patterns.

The DS-500 design runs beautifully off of any 7.4V li-ion. The Magicshine, Gemini, and Gloworm packs are all directly compatible, but anything else (such as Dinotte) just requires a simple adapter. In reality, you can drive the light with any voltage (capable of delivering the necessary current) in a range from about 5V to 12.6V.

Finding a housing to even think about building a custom amber version would be the trick at this point. Everything I'm building now is already pre-sold, but PM me if like and I can tell you more about it.
Cheers

I'm not having any luck finding amber XPE triples, but maybe you have a source?


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

pethelman said:


> View attachment 819467


yeah, that's hardcore. i received my 400R today and tried it out, so i have a point of reference looking at this pic - that is crazy stuff.

i like how your light has better spill than 400R, the 400R really doesn't have much spill. on the other hand that hotspot you have is questionable.

in my opinion ridiculous lumens going into wider spill is a definite win - your ass is covered from more angles - but ridiculous lumens precipitating in a hot spot is sketchy - yes on the one hand if you ride on the side of the highway and somebody is doing 80 mph while texting his girlfriend without such a powerful beam he may not see you in time, but on the other hand, if somebody is stuck behind you in traffic he may brush you just out of spite.

of course it would be ideal if you could control the spot lens and the flood lens separately ( you can do this on NiteRider Pro 3600 headlight, but its spot and flood are barely any different ). if you had that kind of control you would use the spot when riding by the side of a highway and use the flood when riding in slow city traffic.

i actually have a cheap cateye LD-1100 tail light which has two independently controllable circuits with 5 LEDs on each. the problem with Cateye controls is that the 2 circuits don't flash in sync - which is super lame. If you could control the level of spot and the flood separately but still have them flash in-sync that would be awesome.


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## find_bruce (May 8, 2011)

pethelman said:


> Finding a housing to even think about building a custom amber version would be the trick at this point. Everything I'm building now is already pre-sold, but PM me if like and I can tell you more about it.
> Cheers
> 
> I'm not having any luck finding amber XPE triples, but maybe you have a source?


How about a Double, Triple (or single) XP-G Host & Amber XPE triples from cutter

More DIY than buying a complete light from you, & not sure whether MatthewM still has any housings, but just throwing the idea out there.

Personally I find 2 x Red XPCs at 0.5 A is plenty, even in daylight, but that's just my opinion


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

*Day time shot*

2x Cree Red XP-E's mated to Ledil Regina reflectors, controlled by a LFlex driver. Light head mounted on seat rails under seat. Powered by a 2 cell 2600mah battery mounted to the seat post. 









Nice small, light weight, extremely bright set-up.

Night time pics and videos to follow. :ihih:

***


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## pigmode (Nov 15, 2009)

300R and RZ8.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

I just uploaded a new video i made of Dinotte 400R ( Lithium 2013 Night model, NOT Daytime Red ) and NiteFlux Red Zone 8 used simultaneously:

Bike Lights at Dusk in Brooklyn Traffic in the Summer Rain ( Canon Vixia HF M500 ) - YouTube


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

androgen, nice job on the video. Out of the lights you are using I was mostly interested in seeing the Red Zone 8 in action and it performs great. Because of it's design, it is extremely bright even from the sides and is perfect for rear of the helmet mounting. Thanks for that.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

androgen said:


> I just uploaded a new video i made of Dinotte 400R ( Lithium 2013 Night model, NOT Daytime Red ) and NiteFlux Red Zone 8 used simultaneously:
> 
> Bike Lights at Dusk in Brooklyn Traffic in the Summer Rain ( Canon Vixia HF M500 ) - YouTube


Nice video. All lights, very impressive. The lights on the rear wheel are as bright as I thought they would be. The 400R is very impressive. The RZ8 looked very good as well and was very noticeable no matter what the angle. The fact that you had it helmet mounted made it noticeable even when there were cars in front of you and we could only see your head.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> Nice video. All lights, very impressive. The lights on the rear wheel are as bright as I thought they would be. The 400R is very impressive. The RZ8 looked very good as well and was very noticeable no matter what the angle. The fact that you had it helmet mounted made it noticeable even when there were cars in front of you and we could only see your head.


thanks. i like the 400R a lot more than the 300R i had last year. the light head itself is half the size and weight as compared to 300R but has almost double the output, the included smart charger is quick, the quality of the cabling and battery is excellent and the price is the same as 300R. in my opinion the 300R should cost significantly less than 400R. the smart charger from the 400R itself is probably worth $30 plus the extra output should be worth something as well. with the 300R you're just paying for the self-contained-ness but i really don't see what's the big deal about that. i'd take a 400R over a 300R anyday - and to think that some 400R owners actually were thinking about "upgrading" to 300R ... LOL


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## pigmode (Nov 15, 2009)

*Great vid, but to add a bit of perspective...*

Your video shows the un-natural and misleading bloom mine had, which is the reason I deleted them. Here are some shots from that video/picture session showing the misleading bloom. The 20° angled shot below is to my eye, *closer* to the truth.









300R and RZ8, in reality at all times even across four lanes you can perceive ther are two different lights shining.

















RZ8


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

pigmode said:


> Your video shows the un-natural and misleading bloom mine had, which is the reason I deleted them. Here are some shots from that video/picture session showing the misleading bloom. The 20° angled shot below is to my eye, *closer* to the truth.


well it is true - it is all very subjective. camera + monitor do not have the dynamic range of eyes so things will never look the same on camera as they do in real life.

i would add however that 400R is brighter than 300R. i didn't have a chance to compare them side by side but i did look at two side by side comparisons online - one of 300R to 140R and one of 400R to 140R and from those two it looked as if 400R is 50% to 2X brighter than 300R. i can dig up the links to those beam shots for you if you want.

basically any picture or video we make can be misleading in some way i think - but the more of the different ones we put out there the more hopefully they will average out and help people understand what's really going on.


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

Quick pic from the road before heading up the trail this morning.









****


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

Also did a quick video with my Camera. I know it is not an urban setting but it was what I had to work with this morning.

(Turn your the sound off, my brake calipers are leaking on my pads and are squealing like crazy right on )






***


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

scar said:


> Also did a quick video with my Camera. I know it is not an urban setting but it was what I had to work with this morning.


Cool ! I also just made a new video with 400R, RZ8 and Bike After Dark


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Androgen, great video. There are several modes and flashing routines you can configure on the red zone 8. There seems to be 3 solid modes and 5 flashing modes (each flashing mode can be 1 out of 8 different patterns). See the document linked here for making your selections and changing from the default setup (page 3 of doc)

http://dev.niteflux.com/wp-secure-content/uploads/Red-Zone-White-Zone-2013.pdf

I the programming is the same as the "old" version of the red zone 4. See vid here... 
red zone 4 power and flash settings intro.mp4 - YouTube

I would like to see some videos of the additional selections if you get a chance and I will be curious to know what you end up selecting.

Do you only use the 400R in solid modes? No flashing modes?


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

i spoke with Dinotte again today, and asked about Daytime Red again.

Dinotte reiterated that regular 400R is 240 lumens and Daytime Red is 400 lumens. they also confirmed that run times are almost the same despite extra output - they said the Daytime Red is more efficient due to the different electronics and running the LEDs at more optimum levels by using more LEDs rather than driving just two LEDs harder.

I then asked Dinotte to confirm that Daytime Red beam is narrower and this time Dinotte said "not really" and that it is in fact quite similar. 

I asked Dinotte if they would ever make a 400 Lumen light for night-time use with wider pattern, and they said NO. Said 400 Lumens is too much and they don't want to get in trouble with the law for selling a 400 Lumen night time light.

Dinotte said that using the Daytime Red at night could cause an accident by disorienting the driver and that Daytime Red should never be used at night. Well, that's their legal logic.

Dinotte sounded pretty nervous talking about Daytime Red - they're really worried about lawsuits due to its brightness - if they find out people are using them at night they will probably pull the plug on it.


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## purifier82 (Oct 13, 2013)

Has anyone done a video comparison of Daytime Red and Designshine side by side?


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

purifier82 said:


> Has anyone done a video comparison of Daytime Red and Designshine side by side?


as far as i know nobody did anything with Daytime Red except a few lousy shots that don't show anything.

pethelman says he has a customer with both DS500 and Daytime Red and the customer reports DS500 is much brighter. this wouldn't surprise me as DS500 has a more sophisticated beam pattern and 500 lumens versus 400 for Dinotte.

pethelman also says he already has a 1000 lumen model but just as with the previous one it will be damn near impossible to get.

i may soon be doing a video comparison between Dinotte 400R Daytime Red and regular Dinotte 400R


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