# Going to buy a tandem MTB, seekng advice re alternatives to ECDM



## TerraVenture (Apr 21, 2015)

Hi Folks, 

My wife and I are at the point now of going to order a MTB Tandem, we have seen lots about the ECDM but just wanted to check to see if we are missing anything else out. 

We are in the UK and ride a wide range of trails from UK Trail centres to wild mountainous adventures in the Scottish Highlands. 

We intend to do some MTB Marathons on it and also compete in some other events which are more technical in nature. Our local woodland is quite technical up and down rocky and rooty. 

If there's nothing else to consider and it is a Ventana ECDM that we get, then next question is the 29 / 650b size choice. I haven't seen much on here about the 650b and would be very interested to hear what any owners have to say and if they also have experience of the 29" and what differences there are for technical trail riding. 

(Full suss is a must as we have a 11yr old son who we'll be soon finding it hard to keep up with on the downhill sections!)


----------



## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

I don't think you will find anything else to beat the ECdM for the type of trails you describe. We've had ours for nearly a year now, purchased from Tandems.co.uk - The UK Tandem Bike Site from JD Tandems - JD Tandems in North Yorkshire. They have a 26" demonstrator that we took round the Gisburn trail before we placed an order. I can't comment on wheel size other than on the 26" we have, but suspect that 650b may be the way to go for slower technical riding and improved "roll-over". I still wouldn't dismiss 26" though if you need the manoeuvrability through tight trails like our local ones. You are welcome to have a go on ours if needed, although we are located in the flatlands of East Anglia.

John and Ruth at JD Tandems will provide most of your answers as they have a wealth of knowledge and experience. Be careful on your fork spec though with regard to travel. We are running a Pike adjusted down to 140mm and it does not handle as well as the demo bike with a Fox 36 at 120mm. We may end-up sacrificing some BB clearance by reducing the travel down to 120mm in order to improve the feel and feedback from the steering.

Tandem MTB's are quite rare in the UK, especially FS ones, so don't be surprised to be the centre of attention on the trails, and be prepared to chat to the other riders who will probably think you're mad :thumbsup:.


----------



## TerraVenture (Apr 21, 2015)

Hi, Thanks for the great reply,

Yes we looked online at the American MTB Tandems site and saw the Da Vinci and Calfee Design ones. But we also saw the price tag! This is a big investment as it is.

My brother in law spotted this one :

https://www.mscbikes.com/index.php?sec=bikes&subsec=bike&id=53&montaje=440#.VTY_ZpP-G00









It is the latest version but there a a few of the older ones going about  like this one:

MSC Zion tandem: de niche in de niche in de niche in de niche?


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Part of the appeal and popularity of Ventana's offerings is due to the customer-oriented focus of the company. If you have a geometry question, you can call and talk with the owner of the company. If you need a frame repaired, they will fix your frame and send it back (sure it costs money, but it is possible). And, specific to the MSC, they have sizes.

If the medium frame size of the MSC fits you both, then it is an option. If it doesn't, MSC doesn't offer anything else. Ventana has something like 5 standard sizes, and custom geometry is available for more $ (same with colors, FWIW). And while most Ventana owners have not talked with the owner of the company or had to get their frame repaired, the options in sizing probably account for much of their popularity by itself. We all come in different shapes and sizes, one size does not fit all.


----------



## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

TerraVenture
My brother in law spotted this one :
[URL="https://www.mscbikes.com/index.php?sec=bikes&subsec=bike&id=53&montaje=440#.VTY_ZpP-G00" said:


> https://www.mscbikes.com/index.php?sec=bikes&subsec=bike&id=53&montaje=440#.VTY_ZpP-G00[/URL]
> 
> View attachment 982721


Wow.......................that comes out at about £3200. Half the price of an ECdM :yikes:


----------



## TerraVenture (Apr 21, 2015)

Yes I have seen from all the posts and having met a few MTB tandem riders, Ventana certainly has a great reputation. Were lifers in MTB, as long as we can we'll be riding so whilst we are early 30's with kids the MSC may be an opportunity to get out there and do it. The dream may still be the Ventana in the future. My wife and I are both about 182 cm which would appear to fit the MSC. 

A fully built bike for price of a Ventana frame only its a big consideration! 

Cheers K


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

switchbacktrog said:


> Wow.......................that comes out at about £3200. Half the price of an ECdM :yikes:


What are you looking at? I see 4,399 Euros or $4,723 for the Zion Tandem MPS2 pictured. ECdM $4,999


----------



## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

UK price for an ECdM is around 6,500 Pounds Sterling, equals
9,700.41 US Dollars


----------



## sportsnapper (Apr 24, 2014)

@TerraVenture - Welcome - you found the forum then! Switchbacktrog is who we bought the Lapierre from. For the other, we were accosted by TerraVenture on our last ride at Glentress (Scotland) last week and asked about our tandem. Yes, you do get asked lots of questions, a lot of them are "you're going down there, on that?'

I'm hoping to write a shortish post about our trip to the 7 Stanes - but as usual lives been a bit hectic since we got back! Hence I've not done any of the emails updates I promised some people 

The MSC looks really interesting - though it's not really a time for change with us yet but something worth considering in the future.


----------



## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

switchbacktrog said:


> UK price for an ECdM is around 6,500 Pounds Sterling, equals
> 9,700.41 US Dollars


Maybe you should shop a bit...


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

TerraVenture said:


> A fully built bike for price of a Ventana frame only its a big consideration!


But, then, is the MSC built the way you'll need it to be? What's your team weight? You'll at least need to look in to reviews of the wheelset, specifically the rear hub. I'd also question the 39T sync rings, especially given your terrain specified in your OP.

Also, you can get a complete new ECdM for $5K USD. Seems to convert to about the same...£3300.


----------



## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

Okayfine said:


> Also, you can get a complete new ECdM for $5K USD. Seems to convert to about the same...£3300.


Perhaps it's the import duties? The UK price for just the frame and shock from the importer is 4890.60 US Dollars.

El Conquistador de Montanas - £3,250.00 : Zen Cart!, The Art of E-commerce

Perhaps we're being ripped-off(not sure how that translates)over here?


----------



## sportsnapper (Apr 24, 2014)

Knew I'd seen something about the MSC tandem before. Someone I know from long ago (Marten) posted on the Tandem Club (UK) Facebook page:

Marten Hoffmann FWIW: MSC fit their Freedom Rotation crankset as standard on their Zion MSP2 full-suspension mountain tandem. We ride the previous model (26") and are very happy with it - at least, after swapping the crankset for a normal one.

And yes, given the rocky terrain in Dalbeatie - which we barely managed with our clearance and the 32t timing rings I wouldn't want to use 39t rings there! Our Bash ring certainly bashed over the descent from 'The Slab'


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

switchbacktrog said:


> Perhaps we're being ripped-off(not sure how that translates)over here?


This page says there's 15% import duty AND THEN 20% VAT on top of that:
The import duty rate for importing Bicycle into United Kingdom is 15%

But that brings a £3300 bike to £4554, just slightly more expensive than the MSC. Yes, then there's shipping, but still. Maybe there's more to it? Bringing a bike into the USA rings up 11% import duty and then, perhaps, state sales tax (<10%).


----------



## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

I think the MSC has a slightly better spec than the ECdM at that price, but you're right, it's still cheaper to import a complete bike into the UK than have one built here. Ours is comparable to the "premium build" and without shipping it would have saved us about £1200 ($1800) by importing. Having said that, I would have felt quite guilty using a UK demonstrator bike from a great supplier, then buying from The States. Any warranty issues would also be more difficult to deal with as well. JD Tandems have already replaced the Hope free-hub for us.

It's a bit like trying on clothing/helmet for size at the local bike shop then buying the same item cheaper on-line.


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

All true.


----------



## TerraVenture (Apr 21, 2015)

US Import Prices

ECdM Frame (US) $3475 (£2322 + Import and Tax of £596) UK Spend = £2918

ECdM Value Build (US) $4999 (£3322 + Import and Tax of £1272.10) UK Spend = £4594

ECdM Premium Build (US) $6343 (£4247 + Import and Tax of £1614) UK Spend = £5861
(Inc Tubless UpGrd)

That does not include shipping costs.


UK Dealer Prices (Inc VAT) 

ECdM Frame Only = £3250

ECdM (Premium Build) = £6500

or 

MSC Fully Built = 4399 Euro = UK Spend of £3140
NO IMPORT TAX from European Union 
(Build is inbetween Value and Premium)


----------



## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

It's surprising there aren't more mtb tandems manufactured, or sold by European companies, given the amount of them that show up to races in France.


----------



## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

You could try a small custom U.S. builder who may be amenable when it comes to a "creative" invoice for customs. The Quiring version of the ECDM looks great and there is also the Viscous Cycles 29er FS with the (now U.K.) Titus rear end.


----------



## sportsnapper (Apr 24, 2014)

In terms of European manufactures, theres was Colella, though I don't think they're made any more. Nicolai make a tandem, at least I've seen one though that may be a custom build. And Lapierre, of course. I think that many of the ones that are in the European races tend to be european models - just lots of them if you look closely at the videos (we did....).



> MSC Fully Built = 4399 Euro = UK Spend of £3140
> NO IMPORT TAX from European Union


That really is a great price - something to aspire to in a couple of years  If you want me to put you in touch with Marten Hoffmann who has one I'd be happy to - or join the UK Tandem Club Facebook page and search for MSC for some threads which discuss it (In English!)


----------



## TerraVenture (Apr 21, 2015)

Been on a host of European sites today and found a lot of ridgid MTB Tandems but not much in the way of full suss. 

We are waiting on some price conformations and postage quotes from France for a MSC, the two uk dealers I've found don't actually import MSC to the uk anymore. 

Contacted MSC direct to ask, and looked at Euro Dealers. Amazingly there's at least 10 dealers within 150km of Calais, which is the closest French ferry port to the UK. I could even day trip across, and take some panniers to fill up with French wine!


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

That MSC looks nice BUT that is a waaay slack head tube angle (69deg) and that's a lot of suspension (150mm rear/160mm front) for most users. 

I wonder how it rides. Has anyone seen an "unbiased" review?

I'm curious about their freedom rotation crankset. Anyone have details?


----------



## sportsnapper (Apr 24, 2014)

I'm happy to quote my Dutch friend here....



> MSC is a Spanish bike company (MSC Bikes - Mountain Bike, Maxxis, Marzocchi) that has its frames produced in Taiwan. We had never heard of it before either; the company was founded in 1999 by 'real cyclists' so to speak.
> 
> The tandem is not a 'top of the bill' type like the Ventana El Conquistador but it fits our bill perfectly. And with 150 mm of travel at the back (front is now at 130 mm) it's very comfortable for the stoker!
> 
> Only drawback is the rather slack head angle which - at least in combination with the Fox Talas fork - produces front wheel flop: the frame sinks as you turn the handlebar. In tight curves this means that you get the full rider/bike weight to 'lean' on the front wheel, making it rather hard to get the bar back to straight ahead.


I think Marten has modified the travel on the front fork - or he has an older model that doesn't have the 160mm travel at the front. But I can't be sure so don't take my word as gospel here. I'll try to contact him later today and find out.



> that's a lot of suspension (150mm rear/160mm front) for most users.


Mmm, no idea about rear suspension on an MTB tandem - there's much better informed guys on this board. However, we've used at least 150mm of our 160mm on the trails we've ridden, both on UK trail centres and also 'in the Wild'. There's a chance that our technique is not spot on, and that we dive the nose a bit (Think we should hit those big drops faster - but that's scary!!) but as a fairly heavy team I think that's to be expected.



> I could even day trip across, and take some panniers to fill up with French wine!


Un très bon idea, n'est pas. Si vous voulez a peu d'assistance avec le française (ou buvez le vin) ma marie c'est parlez française très bien , elle est un prof 

Enough - making me want to ride and I need to work :-(


----------



## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Air freight to the UK on complete tandems runs between $250 and $500 USD, depending on season and amount of freight being shipped at the time.


----------



## TerraVenture (Apr 21, 2015)

Posted in error


----------



## TerraVenture (Apr 21, 2015)

I Believe the Lapierre is 70 deg, the ventana (650b for comparison) is 71.5deg. (Msc 69 deg)

Have there not been people on here using ofset headsets to slacken the Ventana head angle?

I'm not so clued up on the geometry side of things, but I take it the same principle could be used to make the head angle up to 70deg?

also its about getting on te ladder, forks can come and go suspension setup changed. It's about getting a bike we can afford and get out and ride.


----------



## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

TerraVenture said:


> ECdM Premium Build (US) $6343 (£4247 + Import and Tax of £1614) UK Spend = £5861
> (Inc Tubless UpGrd)
> 
> ECdM (Premium Build) UK= £6500


So add about £300 shipping and you only save £340 ($511)....................


----------



## TerraVenture (Apr 21, 2015)

Its just a shame that that £300 shipping and the £1600 worth of duties and tax are ontop of what we would pay US, almost worth taking an old tandem out, ditching it having a free holiday and bringing the new one back !


----------



## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

TerraVenture said:


> Have there not been people on here using ofset headsets to slacken the Ventana head angle?


Yes........me. Running a 140mm fork, I've tried it at + 1 and -1 degree and TBH it didn't make much difference. Ventana recommended +1 for 140mm but that didn't work so I'm now on -1 (slacker) which is a minor improvement. Next step is standard angle and 120mm travel.

Have a look at this thread........http://forums.mtbr.com/tandem-mountain-bikes/ecdm-geometry-925544.html


----------



## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

TerraVenture said:


> the two uk dealers I've found don't actually import MSC to the uk anymore.


I've emailed Ruth at JD Tandems about the MSC to see if they might be interested in selling them. It would be great to try and expand the UK market with a more affordable FS Tandem.


----------



## TerraVenture (Apr 21, 2015)

Sounds like a good idea, let me know what response you get.


----------



## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Regarding the thread title: Fandango 29er, preferably with Rohloff. You'll forget any sticker shock right away once you start enjoying a premium machine, so may as well buck up.


----------



## TerraVenture (Apr 21, 2015)

Hi She&I, 

I take it you have a Fandango 29er.. good to have another opinion! I've had a 29er full suss single for about a year now. It made a massive difference, with the greater rolling over tundra and stones abilities on our last wild ride which was 80 miles over 3 days across part of Scotland, (Our 10 yr old son also rode solo). We do some long hours in the saddle and also can ride over some very rough wild terrain in the process. I think if we stayed on more local woodland trails and double track that the fandango would be the ideal choice. I'm sure that it could easily handle more technical terrain but my stoker would probably be more comfortable on a full suss due to the type of riding and the multi day trips we do


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

This is very true, the Fandango is super capable, the only limit sare pilot skills and stoker comfort.

We just sold a Fandango, it's a great machine, but my wife wanted more cushion and I wanted more footprint, so we got a Ventana Jefe. I'd take rear suspension if I could get it.

Anglesets work and they make a difference, but they won't make a tandem ride like a solo bike, there are always going to be handling issues.



TerraVenture said:


> Hi She&I,
> 
> I take it you have a Fandango 29er.. I'm sure that it could easily handle more technical terrain but my stoker would probably be more comfortable on a full suss due to the type of riding and the multi day trips we do


----------



## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes, which compromise to live with...

We started with a DC-9 (dérailleur'ed) Fandango and sold it for a Tourista soon after. 

Stoker comfort is somewhat relative, perhaps...I have a small stoker, which helps IMO. Thudbuster with a good seat, or perhaps a shock-absorbing straight carbon post. Lots of cockpit adjustment are possible, including a shorter stoker stem than the adjustable Control one. My lass had no comfort issues on a 60-day ride last year with a straight alloy post. And I had a rigid steel fork on it for this ride. Lots of that ride has relatively smooth surface, but many days were endlessly chunky. We did see another Tourista on the route, a man with his family, riding with his youngest son as stoker. He was pretty happy with his, even running a sus fork as specked by MTB Tandems. His family rode 80 miles that day!

We decided that the compromise we would have is for a little less control and cush in the rough. We rip all kinds of stuff on FS singles, so we are not looking for this bike to necessarily do that (though it can and does).

I think the IGH is a more important consideration for long rides than HT vs FS. We found nearly immediately that a drive designed for a single bike doesn't necessarily work for two. The maintenance was over the top. Talk about stoker comfort...how about keeping that bike going down the trail instead of tinkering with dérailleurs and replacing/fixing chains and cassettes.

Again, choose your compromise. There always will be one.


----------



## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

You may also check and see if import duties are the same for frames as for complete bikes. IIRC, there is a difference in some circumstances. Not sure for UK VAT but might be worth a check.


----------



## TerraVenture (Apr 21, 2015)

I used an online calculator, but I can't be sure of it's accuracy, it did ask specifically about the item as to wether it was a whole bike or a frame. I selected the right options for each of the calculations i have above.


----------



## TerraVenture (Apr 21, 2015)

Well we did it, "New tandem in the house!"

(Literally, as it doesnt fit in the shed!)









Facebook Album 

We travelled from Scotland via ferry from Newcastle , England, by overnight ferry to Amsterdam and then trains and coaches to Zeeland, North Brabant, and met the distributor Peter at the North Brabant Bike Festival, a 24hr event.

We then rode the Zion back north west 50 miles through forests and cycleways to a forest cabin were we arrived about 10pm as light faded. We left again at 05:00 and set off on the remaining 70 miles up to the ferry port to return to the UK were our trusty van awaited for our final leg home to Scotland.

Fantastic trip and brilliant bike so far! Nothing too techy ridden yet but we did dip in and out of the single track when we felt we had time along the way!

The above pic was on of many short ferries to get across all the rivers and canals on route!


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Okay, that's pretty awesome! Congratulations on your new bike - I'd say "hope you have fun on it!" but you already have.


----------



## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

Wow....................that's some first trip on a new tandem. See you have the same method of getting through gates as us.


----------



## sportsnapper (Apr 24, 2014)

Fantastic - nice to see that you've got a bike after our encounter in Glentress  And looks like a fantastic journey back to the UK - the Dutch are so good with bikes - except for that gate - I've never seen on of those there. But as John says - same method here for getting through gates.

Keep us all updated on how it rides on single track


----------



## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

YEs. How is this bike on actual singletrack? And technical trails?


----------

