# Sanitization gone too far.



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Anyone recognize this move? It's from the Lunch Loop in Grand Junction, Colorado. My backyard, literally and figuratively.

_(click to make bigger)_









It's near the bottom of the Holy Cross, and has existed more or less intact (save for some natural erosion) for 15+ years.

Pictured is the "up move", an ~18" ledge that leads you to a short, sloping roll toward a ~2.5' drop to (more or less) flat.

I've been using it for more than a decade as a place to help dial in suspension settings whenever I build or test a new bike. It is a fun, easy move -- up, roll, drop, repeat -- consistently doable on every kind of bike you'd regularly ride at the Lunch Loop, but it is also _useful_ for dialing things in.

I went to it last week for exactly that reason, and was shocked when I got there:









Someone(s) must have spent *hours* building that shitpile of weakness. I looked closely, and am 99% certain that I could have rolled a shopping cart (even with a wobbly wheel) up it smoothly.

In other words, someone with zero skill could easily roll up onto that boulder. Makes me wonder aloud what they do once up there? Just trying to get a better cell signal? Good place for a selfie?!!

It took me a solid 20 minutes of heaving rock to restore the move to it's natural state.

Honestly? If you built that ramp *I'm embarrassed for you*.

Learn to ride the trails as they are. Elevate your game instead of bringing things down to your level. There is no shame in walking things until you learn to ride them, but it is despicable to deliberately dumb trails down.​


----------



## Scotth72 (Mar 15, 2004)

Haven't you heard? Everyone now is entitled to ride every trail, without getting off their bike, regardless of their skill level.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Scotth72 said:


> Haven't you heard? Everyone now is entitled to ride every trail, without getting off their bike, regardless of their skill level.


So much this!

I recall on a loop in the AZ desert, which was by no means difficult, there was someone painstakingly going through it removing all the rocks on the riding surface. Evidently they wanted to ride their Trek road bike out there. Then people began straightening the corners for some reason. Thankfully cholla was available to close off the straightening, however the rocks that were removed left these large holes which were just inverse rocks but often times deeper and more abrupt than the removed rocks.

I am amazed at how fast people feel they need to progress. I have been riding off road for many decades and there are still sections I walk or can't clear, which is what makes mountain biking interesting to me, continuously being challenged by something is a good thing. It is so selfish to think that everyone on the trail is at the same level as you and will enjoy your bypass.

Glad you cleared it Mike and returned it to its original difficulty!


----------



## rockhopper97 (Jul 30, 2014)

I used to be into 4x4's and would see the same thing on wheeling trails.....I like the challenge of difficult terrain and it pisses me off to see this happen.....if you need a smooth trail , stick to paved bike paths.... I would even try that section of trail on my 86 schwinn sierra just for the challenge


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I see it all the time in my area and it's been a major bich of mine for years. Most of the sanitation I come across can not be undone without a group of 8 workers a Bobcat and 8 hours of spare time.

OP the sanitation you show could be reversed with just you and an hour of tossing rocks. I say go for it and if anyone gives you a hard time give them my number.

Here's a section of trail in my area that they sanitized. A fun challenging section that was the same for years. Very little erosion problems. It was sanitized to make it easier.

The first video is taken prior to sanitation. Obviously I had no idea what was in its near future. Look closely to where the landscape timber is.

Devils Backbone #19 Video - Pinkbike

The second video is after sanitation. A different angle but if you look closely to where the landscape timber is you can see where they back filled it all in.

How to ruin a trail. Video - Pinkbike


----------



## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

rockcrusher said:


> .... Then people began straightening the corners for some reason. Thankfully cholla was available to close off the straightening, ....... It is so selfish to think that everyone on the trail is at the same level as you and will enjoy your bypass......


This is driving me nuts at my local trail (Big Creek in Roswell, GA) This a trail that is not on a lot of land but RAMBO has done an excellent job designing it. But we now have people who are straightening every single difficult corner. It is completely sanitizing the trail and removing all its unique characteristics. Switch back? nope, too difficult, they cut across....a few rocks in the way? nope, they cut on the other side leaving a tree in the middle of the trail and list goes on

This seems to have accelerated during the last year or so. I am also seeing it on other trails around here as well.

Grinds my gears!

Whew. Rant over.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Happening all the time in MA and New England. Improved strava times? Some of it makes no sense, like cutting a corner for 10 feet to avoid a 2" ledge of rock on it? Cutting out all the corners of not even challenging stuff? I'm talking 4 ft wide trails with a few softball sized rocks. Ugg. Game cameras an answer?


----------



## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

Happens around these parts as well. Started back in 94 or 96. First race we had, a race organizer took a Bobcat to all the singletrack on the course. They were told, if you want to be insured, then the entire course has to be accessible via ATV. Live and learn, right? 

Nope. A couple years back, some riders removed log piles and obstacles (roots, rocks) that had been on the singletrack as long as there had been singletrack. And they destroyed those obstacles when they were removed (chopped up small via chainsaw). When confronted, they admitted they were trying to improve their lap times. 

*****bags.


----------



## TrailGoat (Sep 6, 2016)

first let me say that I am not defending this at all, I like stuff harder too, but...

do you think they did it to try to make a jump that they can hit at high speed? not sure what the feature is like beyond your description, but maybe they are not trying to make it easier, just more high speed w/jumps?

either way, im with you on this and I hope this doesn't become an ongoing battle for you...


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

TrailGoat said:


> do you think they did it to try to make a jump that they can hit at high speed? not sure what the feature is like beyond your description, but maybe they are not trying to make it easier, just more high speed w/jumps?


Nope. You effectively make a climbing u-turn to get to the "up" move, so whether there's a ramp or not you're going walking speed, maybe a bit less. And there's no lip off the other end -- it's just a drop to (more or less) flat. Going faster off of it just puts you out onto a yet-flatter landing.


----------



## rockhopper97 (Jul 30, 2014)

faster lap times??? seriously??? strava is evil....if you want to race around for a better lap time, keep it on the pavement!! I guess I am an old school mountain biker( been doing this since the early 90's)... personally I like going over knarly terrain and enjoying being away from the city and those kind of people.... this strava **** is getting out of hand!


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

rockhopper97 said:


> faster lap times??? seriously??? strava is evil....if you want to race around for a better lap time, keep it on the pavement!! I guess I am an old school mountain biker( been doing this since the early 90's)... personally I like going over knarly terrain and enjoying being away from the city and those kind of people.... this strava **** is getting out of hand!


i've never used/seen strava firsthand, so i can't say for sure, but I don't think it's strava related. if speed is your thing you'd just ride right by this and never touch any part of it.


----------



## rockhopper97 (Jul 30, 2014)

I have also had a-holes come out of nowhere and just about running me off the trail blowing by me... again, strava is evil


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

rockhopper97 said:


> I have also had a-holes come out of nowhere and just about running me off the trail blowing by me... again, strava is evil


I haven't had this happen, _yet_, but i have a plan for when it does...


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Watch out Mike and everyone loathing this sanitizing (myself included). Guys (generally builders who have money at stake, I presume) will start to come out of the wood-work to tell you that you're an elitist that doesn't want to 'share' mountain biking with anyone not as skilled as you.

Happened to me. 

It's ridiculous. When I started riding 20 some odd years ago, I didn't expect the trail to be easier. I expected myself to figure out how to ride the **** that I couldn't. 

Now you're an elitist jerk if you expect others to do the same.

And we all remember the purple and blue and fuschia anodized crap that we did it on. People these days have no excuse for being such ninnies. The bikes can practically do it for you in comparison.


----------



## A1an (Jun 3, 2007)

Perhaps I missed it in the postings above, but are you sure this wasn't work done under the direction of a trail boss? Seems like a ton of work for someone to do 'just because'. Would suck if you removed purposeful authorized work.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

On another note Mike, they sure did a nice job fitting the stones. Could find some work as stonemason, lol!!


----------



## Scotth72 (Mar 15, 2004)

TrailGoat said:


> first let me say that I am not defending this at all, I like stuff harder too, but...
> 
> do you think they did it to try to make a jump that they can hit at high speed? not sure what the feature is like beyond your description, but maybe they are not trying to make it easier, just more high speed w/jumps?
> 
> either way, im with you on this and I hope this doesn't become an ongoing battle for you...


Doesn't matter. The trail user has no business modifying the trail. Period. That is up to the land managers, or custodians of said trail.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Scotth72 said:


> Doesn't matter. The trail user has no business modifying the trail. Period. That is up to the land managers, or custodians of said trail.


Exactly!


----------



## misterbill (Aug 13, 2014)

I was pretty happy to see this, I'm sure that the reason for the repair was not because a newb like me did not want to ride it. My bike is on the old trail, the new trail curves to the left of the large oak tree. The old trail started with a sharp corner, a steep drop while still going around the corner(the old trail crosses here, the oak tree is in the middle of the curve). The trail is sandy with a lot of small rocks. I never rode this because it looked to me that I would end up hitting a tree, with any deviation off of my line.

This was redone by NEMBA, I am certain because the land managers asked them to do it. I am guessing it was because of erosion, not because it was difficult.


----------



## Matterhorn (Feb 15, 2015)

Maybe it was a show of support for DT's wall?


----------



## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Blame dropper posts.

People lose all skill when they use those things, so they need everything else sanitized to compensate for the now loss of rider skill.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

DethWshBkr said:


> Blame dropper posts.
> 
> People lose all skill when they use those things, so they need everything else sanitized to compensate for the now loss of rider skill.


This makes as much sense as blame Obama, or Hillary, or Chump.


----------



## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

mikesee said:


> This makes as much sense as blame Obama, or Hillary, or Chump.


Ha!

Meaning bikes were harder to ride, so every Tom, Dick, and Harry didn't fancy themselves a mountain biker. You had to actually be a decent rider to get to this stuff, and if you were a decent rider, you didn't WANT to sanitize the trail.
Bikes are so easy to ride now, every Joe Blow thinks they are a rider, so they venture out to these areas, encounter something they dont like, so they make it easier.

Like manual transmissions. Autos make people lazy, and means any moron can drive a vehicle with minimal attention, freeing them up do text, or otherwise be stupid.
How many drivers would there be if everyone had to drive a stick?


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Great post Deathwish. But to your last sentence, I'd say there would still be just as many, they just wouldn't be as lazy. 

Or

There would be even more accidents because it's damned hard to diddle a phone and shift and hold your wheel.


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

We need to figure out a way to stop this...for real. There are countless threads of people *****ing about this (I've started several) and I see it everywhere I go. We need solutions to end this and bring it to land managers BLM etc and make them understand it's an epidemic.


----------



## evdog (Mar 18, 2007)

Nice work Mike! I have removed a few ramps like that myself.


----------



## Sven Trials (Sep 15, 2005)

You will get used to the sanitation of trails. The local builders around here have two trackhoes to reroute or relay trails with a heavy rock base the top course materials as they do not want roots or mud within a 50 mile radius of Seattle. Mountain biking is way different now. It breeds the strava induced ding dongs and has removed the need for skill.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Brodino said:


> This is driving me nuts at my local trail (Big Creek in Roswell, GA) This a trail that is not on a lot of land but RAMBO has done an excellent job designing it. But we now have people who are straightening every single difficult corner. It is completely sanitizing the trail and removing all its unique characteristics. Switch back? nope, too difficult, they cut across....a few rocks in the way? nope, they cut on the other side leaving a tree in the middle of the trail and list goes on
> 
> This seems to have accelerated during the last year or so. I am also seeing it on other trails around here as well.
> 
> ...


Brodino,

Curious if you are a member of RAMBO, as I am assuming they are the ones sanitizing the trails. I ride out there a few times a year, haven't been there in a couple of months. Last time, there was a new route but I'm not familiar with the trails enough to remember how it was.

Where else have you been seeing this? Sorba Woodstock seems to have taken a good approach at Rope Mill, they kept the old route over that one real rocky spot but then built an alternate route around it. They did take out the one other challenging spot, that climb after crossing the creek, but that may have been due to erosion. They are about to reroute a lot of Dwelling but have promised to leave in some areas and build alt lines.


----------



## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

mikesee said:


> Anyone recognize this move? It's from the Lunch Loop in Grand Junction, Colorado. My backyard, literally and figuratively.
> 
> _(click to make bigger)_
> 
> ...


e-bikers did that.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

stochastic said:


> Reading comprehension is a wonderful skill to strive for.
> 
> "It took me a solid 20 minutes of heaving rock to restore the move to it's natural state."


Ahh I missed that. Sorry I'll work on that comprehension thing. Don't hold your breath though I'm a damn good skimmer.

Plus one on tearing it down.


----------



## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

A1an said:


> Perhaps I missed it in the postings above, but are you sure this wasn't work done under the direction of a trail boss? Seems like a ton of work for someone to do 'just because'. Would suck if you removed purposeful authorized work.


This is indeed a fair question, and since (I think) its on BLM land, it is highly possibly that it was built under the direction of the land manager. I don't support sanitizing trails . . . but we as a user group need to make sure that we're on the same page with the land managers before we start making our own decisions.

On my local trails here in Vegas, its a huge problem and I know with 100% certainty that the simplification of the trails is _not_ under direction of the land owner. There are all kinds of cuts, go-arounds, and rocks stacked to make tech features easier to ride. I can remove the piles, but I can't do anything about the cuts other than call people out for using them.


----------



## Matterhorn (Feb 15, 2015)

mikesee said:


> This makes as much sense as blame Obama, or Hillary, or Chump.


I joking blamed Chump because I couldn't get myself to take the outrage seriously.

A person could see the ramp as someone making a mistake and use this as an opportunity to educate and cooperate. Not sure tearing it down, which does need to happen no doubt, really gets the message across. IF it does, then what is the message?

Those folks thought they were doing a good thing, and they seemed to have taken it seriously and done a good job. It was not the right thing to do but those folks might, and still might, make great trail maintainers one day. They've got time and skill just need some direction.

Just had a good ride so I'm feeling especially generous. To be clear I'm not for trail sanitization. Any trail at all is too sanitized for me, keep it natural.


----------



## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Strava Weenie built that ramp. Respect the KOM....(sic).


----------



## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

007 said:


> This is indeed a fair question, and since (I think) its on BLM land, it is highly possibly that it was built under the direction of the land manager. I don't support sanitizing trails . . . but we as a user group need to make sure that we're on the same page with the land managers before we start making our own decisions.
> 
> On my local trails here in Vegas, its a huge problem and I know with 100% certainty that the simplification of the trails is _not_ under direction of the land owner. There are all kinds of cuts, go-arounds, and rocks stacked to make tech features easier to ride. I can remove the piles, but I can't do anything about the cuts other than call people out for using them.


Last time I rode cottonwood, I noticed a nice stacking of of rocks to prevent people from going around the BFR.

I love how raw the vegas trails are, ruts, bumps, rocks, a stream washed rocks on, washed dirt out. No dirt roadies wanting perfectly smooth crap trails, they are what mountain bikes are all about


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

mikesee said:


> Anyone recognize this move? It's from the Lunch Loop in Grand Junction, Colorado. My backyard, literally and figuratively.
> 
> _(click to make bigger)_
> 
> ...


Ya know, we're trying to grow the sport here, and you're not helping. Mountain Bike tourism is here to stay, so we're making everything ride-able so more people will come and spend all that money in your town. I'm sure there's plenty of old, eroded trails that you can ride. You're just a selfish hater. Times change, you're just a relic. If it's so easy for you just ride it faster.

(all the above, totally lame excuses have ben thrown at me for years. I fought that battle rebuilding mandatory features for a decade is Stowe, Vt only to eventually tap out and move to another town. The malignancy has followed me and is spreading. After 20 years of trail work and building many of the trails now sold for tourism, I'm told I have to move farther out to enjoy trails that require some skill to navigate without walking a spot or two. When you create something that others suddenly see value in, it will be taken from you by self appointed experts bringing change without improvement for their own, personal gain. 'Merica.)


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Well spoken Dave.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Just move to an economically challenged area where no one mountain bikes, I wouldn't mind if someone came and sanitized a few of the nearly unrideable trails in my neighborhood. The grass is always greener...


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I'm still upset at the "land managers - custodians of trails" in Moab who hammered out the off camber step climb outbound on Slick Rock because the motorcyclists were detouring around it into an off limits area. As far as I can tell, there was no discussion or warning that it would be done, so there was no opportunity to intervene in the process. It took me quite a few tries to master that step up and now it's gone forever. They had a "right" to do it....but it still sucks that they did.


----------



## Matterhorn (Feb 15, 2015)

One more idea--maybe we could call the features that mikesee was complaining about Sanitary Napkins.


----------



## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

This goes on all over the place! :madmax:

BUT, I have to ask who is the land manager in this case.

I have seen where some trails on public land seem to be untouchable except through an arduous sequence of bureaucratic hoop jumping and impact assessments, while others get re-routed/modified on a whim (even by park staff or affiliated crews/clubs). It seems the protocol is completely unknown to most people (and probably inconsistent as well) so they just do whatever they want. As long as there are going to be so many newbs in the sport it should be made known, through bike shops, land mgrs., park staff, tourism advertisers, outdoor clubs, etc. that this amounts to VANDALISM and nothing more, with real legal consequences.

"Oh, I just moved a few rocks. What's the big deal?"

Add or remove a feature from any other type of trail and see what the reaction is.

-F


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

there are a few builders I know who pretty much build for the almighty "flow" almost exclusively. Even optional, SLIGHTLY more technical lines get sanitized.

One park near me is slowly getting itty bitty (pointless, except for screwing up the drainage) berms added to EVERY CORNER and it's starting to drive me nuts.


----------



## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

The trail is called lunch loop? You should of seen this coming...


----------



## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

The smallest of logs have been moved on the trails I ride and small trees get broken too. I once made a sign that read,"Hey tool,if you can't ride the obstacle ,walk it or go ride Rock Island Trail!" RIT is a railroad path. The sign was gone the next day but the log ,which I moved back,is still there.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

DaveVt said:


> Ya know, we're trying to grow the sport here, and you're not helping. Mountain Bike tourism is here to stay, so we're making everything ride-able so more people will come and spend all that money in your town. I'm sure there's plenty of old, eroded trails that you can ride. You're just a selfish hater. Times change, you're just a relic. If it's so easy for you just ride it faster.
> 
> (all the above, totally lame excuses have ben thrown at me for years. I fought that battle rebuilding mandatory features for a decade is Stowe, Vt only to eventually tap out and move to another town. The malignancy has followed me and is spreading. After 20 years of trail work and building many of the trails now sold for tourism, I'm told I have to move farther out to enjoy trails that require some skill to navigate without walking a spot or two. When you create something that others suddenly see value in, it will be taken from you by self appointed experts bringing change without improvement for their own, personal gain. 'Merica.)





jochribs said:


> Well spoken Dave.


That's all great but there's a thing called over sanitizing. Making every trail wheelchair compatible takes the fun and challenge out of the sport. Do we really need more people on the trails? More money to a tourist town? Why do we have to grow the sport? Mountain biking was never meant for everyone to begin with. If you can't navigate your way down a technicle rocky trail and enjoy it then maybe take up golf or billiards. Stop sanitizing and ruining the natural flow of the trails.


----------



## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Trying to grow the sport? 

If you need to grow a sport by making it simpler so that everybody can do it, why don't we just hand out participation trophies when you buy a bike?
Everything is not for everyone. 
Period.

I don't think ski slopes should be so steep. It's scary for the beginners. And there's no reason to have double black diamond ski slopes either. Those are just a reminder that I can't do it.

I really want to play the guitar, but trying to read music is just too tough for me. How about instead of drawing the notes out we just write the letter of the note instead? We don't really need to have music written like it was for hundreds of years that's so Antiquated. We are so much better than that now.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

After decades of building trails here locally we've finally got the landmangers on board with adding tech features and making trails challenging. Of course during this entire time, we've always been critcized by a percentage of riders who *****ed that our trails were too boring, not enough tech, why don't we build North Shore stuff, etc. Like it's our choice and not the parameters set by the LM's that we have to work within?

Anyway, last summer, we got the OK for a "Black Diamond" trail and were free to do as we pleased. We built a narrow exposed section of trail, big rocks, chunky, tough to ride with fall consuquences. I wanted a trail that most people couldn't clean and 50% wouldn't ride at all. Before it was even done, people were in there dumbing it down, pulling out choke points, ramping step ups. Now, while still difficult, it's a shadow of what it was and what I envisioned. It's very disheartening.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I disagree with building features. Especially out of timbers which takes away from the natural surroundings. I can understand doing this in the midwest where there's not much natural tech to the and. But out west and other parts of the country where the land flows in a natural rocky technicle state. Build the trail through and leave the rocks where they naturally lay. In areas where erosion is a concern build accordingly but try to leave it as natural as possible. It not only gives riders a more challenging ride but it also enhances the natural look and the trail blends more with the surroundings.


----------



## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Out at 18 road this weekend, riding with wife and son, I had ample opportunity to show him why sanitization sucks and shortcuts around obstacles defeat the entire point. On Frontside, between the Prime Cut climb and upper parking lot, there's one (and one of the few) remotely technical sections, requiring a tight right hand turn and up and over a small rock outcrop. With my son watching, I roll up and take the trail feature in the line of the trail - its what makes it somewhat challenging. As my son rolls in on it the next time we passed through this section the next day, a couple of Strava tards come rocketing up on him as he slowing and getting in position to try to ride this feature (very advanced for him), almost run him down, then pass off trail, make a loop off trail to come back onto the trail to hit the feature from an easier angle, then have the audacity to say "that's how its done" as they rolled past. If a nine year old has the common sense to say "That's bull****, anyone can ride it that way.", then I'd like to think most adults know better too - sadly, they don't care. After that, I went out of my way to show him on climbs where people have widened the trail by going around the tougher trail features, and went on to explain that the difficult sections are why we ride in the first place. The rest of the trip, he was taking the toughest lines and having a blast, even when he failed. I was also extremely proud of him as when he asked as we were sitting in camp down in the ditch (down from the established campgrounds) "Why is everyone loading up their bikes and driving out of here - then the car comes back without the bikes?" I had to explain to him that people were shuttling 18 road. He seriously thought I was kidding, until the bikers at the camp next to us came rolling back in, shortly after their shuttle vehicle returned, beered up, loaded up, and did another shuttle lap.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Put a trail camera in the bushes and then when they do it again, out the special little snowflakes.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Okay, that's sad!


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> That's all great but there's a thing called over sanitizing. Making every trail wheelchair compatible takes the fun and challenge out of the sport. Do we really need more people on the trails? More money to a tourist town? Why do we have to grow the sport? Mountain biking was never meant for everyone to begin with. If you can't navigate your way down a technicle rocky trail and enjoy it then maybe take up golf or billiards. Stop sanitizing and ruining the natural flow of the trails.


Dirt Junkie...we are on the same side brother. Dave's first paragraph was being facetious and contrary...that isn't what he actually thinks. That's what he's been shoveled over with steaming piles with in the past...and present.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

watermonkey said:


> Out at 18 road this weekend, riding with wife and son, I had ample opportunity to show him why sanitization sucks and shortcuts around obstacles defeat the entire point. On Frontside, between the Prime Cut climb and upper parking lot, there's one (and one of the few) remotely technical sections, requiring a tight right hand turn and up and over a small rock outcrop. With my son watching, I roll up and take the trail feature in the line of the trail - its what makes it somewhat challenging. As my son rolls in on it the next time we passed through this section the next day, a couple of Strava tards come rocketing up on him as he slowing and getting in position to try to ride this feature (very advanced for him), almost run him down, then pass off trail, make a loop off trail to come back onto the trail to hit the feature from an easier angle, then have the audacity to say "that's how its done" as they rolled past. If a nine year old has the common sense to say "That's bull****, anyone can ride it that way.", then I'd like to think most adults know better too - sadly, they don't care. After that, I went out of my way to show him on climbs where people have widened the trail by going around the tougher trail features, and went on to explain that the difficult sections are why we ride in the first place. The rest of the trip, he was taking the toughest lines and having a blast, even when he failed. I was also extremely proud of him as when he asked as we were sitting in camp down in the ditch (down from the established campgrounds) "Why is everyone loading up their bikes and driving out of here - then the car comes back without the bikes?" I had to explain to him that people were shuttling 18 road. He seriously thought I was kidding, until the bikers at the camp next to us came rolling back in, shortly after their shuttle vehicle returned, beered up, loaded up, and did another shuttle lap.


Watermonkey, I think our son's, (and you and I) would get along just fine, lol!!


----------



## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Yup West Bragg Creek is suffering the same fate....

If it isn't a wide smooth highway somebody moves in to fix it.


----------



## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I disagree with building features. Especially out of timbers which takes away from the natural surroundings. I can understand doing this in the midwest where there's not much natural tech to the and. But out west and other parts of the country where the land flows in a natural rocky technicle state. Build the trail through and leave the rocks where they naturally lay. In areas where erosion is a concern build accordingly but try to leave it as natural as possible. It not only gives riders a more challenging ride but it also enhances the natural look and the trail blends more with the surroundings.


Not a big deal....our trails are mostly through forest of in Alpine terrain....Most of the trails have a skinny over a log, or a drop off down some rocks....

The are left there to show some sensitivity to what it would like like without trail maintaince.


----------



## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

I think that ramp looks nice, especially as an entrance for a retirement home.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I disagree with building features. Especially out of timbers which takes away from the natural surroundings.


I'm with you DJ, keep it real.


----------



## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

When I first started riding, there was a lot of stuff I couldn't ride. It never once occurred to me to change it or make it easier. It was a challenge to be met that day or another day. There is nothing wrong with hopping off and walking if you are not comfortable riding certain features.


----------



## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

I would say just hop up on the rock to the right... that looks like a better challenge anyway...


----------



## cobi (Apr 29, 2008)

To answer a few repeat comments, no the land managers didn't do it or ok it and no it's not a Strava line.

This line, which has been there much longer than I've been riding out there is an alternate option like 20 feet off the main trail hidden up behind some rocks. Thousands of people wiz by it every year and have no idea it's up there. So it's highly unlikely the BLM would bother with it and people worried about strava times would never take it as it would surely be 5 or 10 seconds slower to make the detour. 

Its 99% likely it's a rider who is such a badass that he needs to hit that gnar drop, but apparently needs a wheelchair ramp to access it.


----------



## misterbill (Aug 13, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Just move to an economically challenged area where no one mountain bikes, I wouldn't mind if someone came and sanitized a few of the nearly unrideable trails in my neighborhood. The grass is always greener...


These two rocks are in the middle of a blazed bike trail. No way around them. I was toying with the idea of moving them, but after reading this topic I decided to leave them alone. Hope you guys know I do listen to what you say.


----------



## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

chazpat said:


> Brodino,
> 
> Curious if you are a member of RAMBO, as I am assuming they are the ones sanitizing the trails. I ride out there a few times a year, haven't been there in a couple of months. Last time, there was a new route but I'm not familiar with the trails enough to remember how it was.
> 
> Where else have you been seeing this? Sorba Woodstock seems to have taken a good approach at Rope Mill, they kept the old route over that one real rocky spot but then built an alternate route around it. They did take out the one other challenging spot, that climb after crossing the creek, but that may have been due to erosion. They are about to reroute a lot of Dwelling but have promised to leave in some areas and build alt lines.


No, I am not a member of RAMBO but I ride Big Creek a few times every month so I am familiar with the trail and I am sure this is not RAMBO doing it. When RAMBO redesigns the trail, it is very obvious and they are great at posting signage or sending out notifications if you are subscribed to their mailing list. These are riders just taking short cuts and ruining an otherwise great urban trail.

The other places I am beginning to see it are Sope Creek and South Loop at Blankets. South Loop really surprised me because it normally does not have traffic so you would think whoever rides it would really want that rocky rooty goodness it offers and not want to take shortcuts.

Apparently this not only bothers me because i block some of them when i can but other people block others too but it is a never ending battle.


----------



## AMac4108 (Oct 8, 2008)

delete

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Trevor Ochmonek said:


> I think that ramp looks nice, especially as an entrance for a retirement home.


I agree. It looks like it's almost fully ADA compliant. It just needs a handrail to be complete.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Just more evidence of the dumbing-down of this country where everything has to be at the lowest common denominator.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

misterbill said:


> These two rocks are in the middle of a blazed bike trail. No way around them. I was toying with the idea of moving them, but after reading this topic I decided to leave them alone. Hope you guys know I do listen to what you say.
> 
> View attachment 1101999
> 
> View attachment 1102001


Those rocks look like fun.

Moving those rocks? Not so much.

Without TNT anyway...


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

misterbill said:


> No way around them.
> View attachment 1101999


Looks like there's a nice line over them though.


----------



## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Curveball said:


> Just more evidence of the dumbing-down of this country where everything has to be at the lowest common denominator.


People can't see this, unfortunately, but it is in all facets of life!

Can we stop calling it "Sanitizing a trail" and call it "Handicapping a trail" instead?

One of the trail systems around here, it's 9.5 miles, and relatively narrow stuff that winds around on itself many times. It is listed as "most difficult" by our Department of Conservation of Natural Resources (DCNR), but IMBA lists it as "Easiest".

Tell me how this is considered a difficult trail system? The only thing hard about it is maintaining any speed up the hills. Not lots of elevation (Roughly 900 for the whole 9.5 miles), but you constantly push the hills. There is no "sit and grind" for a while. It's all out. This is a workout trail system for me. Boring as heck, other than trying to go fast.

Unfortauntely, this is considered excellent mountain biking, and seems to be the design spec for other trail systems.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

That would be fun once in awhile, but I see zero challenge. Looks like it could be cleaned by a toddler on a Strider.


----------



## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

stochastic said:


> While ranting on forums and social media is a feel good exercise it will rarely reach the ears of the offending dweebs.


Is that true, though? While these threads are typically one sided, there is a huge cross section(the majority IME) of the riding population for which a couple foot step up, followed by a few foot drop, is a prohibitive feature they will never ride. So I'd assume there is a silent majority that either don't mind, or outright condone, this kind of trail modification.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

AllMountin' said:


> Is that true, though? While these threads are typically one sided, there is a huge cross section(the majority IME) of the riding population for which a couple foot step up, followed by a few foot drop, is a prohibitive feature they will never ride. So I'd assume there is a silent majority that either don't mind, or outright condone, this kind of trail modification.


Not only that but when sharing trails with horses and hikers keep in mind that "features" are of no interest to them and they might actually think they're doing you a favor by removing a fallen log. Does not mean they're "dweebs".


----------



## ksechler (Nov 8, 2004)

Get the same thing here. I live in a rocky, hilly, technical area. Pisses me off when I see go arounds to 6" logs and/or rocks. There's also a lot of corner-cutting which leads me to believe that Strava is playing role. It certainly happens more since the advent of Strava. When I started riding here in the late 90's it was all single track, big rocks, and dead falls. I used to get off and walk a lot in those days and part of that evolution and learning to ride that type of stuff made me a solid technical rider. It wasn't about going fast to get a better time on Strava it was about learning something and having skills. Sigh, "When I was a boy we didn't have fancy ramps and go arounds. We got on our 26", rigid bikes. We rode the rocks and we liked it. Sometimes when we'd descend we'd get hand cramps from our four-fingered canti-lever brakes. AND WE LIKED IT!" ;-)


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

AMac4108 said:


> I'm seeing a lot of this in my area. Our local IMBA chapter has been getting new trails built in most of the area parks and building relationships with the park boards. This a huge positive and has gotten many new people in to the sport.
> 
> The problem, and I hate complaining about getting new trails, is that every new trail is a beginner trail. Wider track, few roots and rocks, and on average maybe 20-50ft of climbing per mile at best.
> 
> ...


I obviously can't say for sure what's going on where you are, but the parameters for the trail are set by the land managers, not those building the trail. If it's a new relationship, I'd venture the LM's are being cautious to see if the chapter can pull off a build, they want to start with something easy, or they might not have a clue that a technical trail can be both buillt sustainably and ridden safely. If the chapter doesn't have experienced design and builder members, they might not be capable of anything more than what you're seeing at this point. Gotta walk before you can fly.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> That would be fun once in awhile, but I see zero challenge. Looks like it could be cleaned by a toddler on a Strider.


Indeed Slaphead. My son would have gone right up that on his Raliegh Lil' Push five years ago, when he was three.
Those types of features 'without the sanitization', I used to grab his seat and bars on the push bike and simulate a mega bunny hop for him to get him on stuff he couldn't get to. He loved it. God I miss those days!


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Harryman said:


> I obviously can't say for sure what's going on where you are, but the parameters for the trail are set by the land managers, not those building the trail. If it's a new relationship, I'd venture the LM's are being cautious to see if the chapter can pull off a build, they want to start with something easy, or they might not have a clue that a technical trail can be both buillt sustainably and ridden safely. If the chapter doesn't have experienced design and builder members, they might not be capable of anything more than what you're seeing at this point. Gotta walk before you can fly.


Harryman, is it fair to ask if insurance is playing a role in this sort of trail becoming the norm?

I understand that the builders build what they are hired to build. And what I've found is quite a few of them are quite defensive when even a whiff of question or criticism is sensed. This leads me to speculate that they are defensive because they have their livings tied up in this, and while they may not like it so much, they are somewhat forced to go along.

Just curious. I know that insurance has brought on some asinine rules and regulations in the areas of the trades.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jochribs said:


> Indeed Slaphead. My son would have gone right up that on his Raliegh Lil' Push five years ago, when he was three.
> Those types of features 'without the sanitization', I used to grab his seat and bars on the push bike and simulate a mega bunny hop for him to get him on stuff he couldn't get to. He loved it. God I miss those days!


Me too man.

Maybe that's what's happened: there are so many toddlers and pre-schoolers hitting the trails these days that entire regions of the country are dedicating the majority of their trail systems to them. 

On a side note - we've got a big Halloween ride this coming weekend at a very technical place; usually a few hundred riders show up for it. I used to love watching my son at 8 or 9 y/o on his little 24" consistently cruise past long lines of kitted up dudes walking $$$$ carbon 29ers through/around rock gardens. "How come those guys aren't riding dad?". :thumbsup:


----------



## cobi (Apr 29, 2008)

AllMountin' said:


> Is that true, though? While these threads are typically one sided, there is a huge cross section(the majority IME) of the riding population for which a couple foot step up, followed by a few foot drop, is a prohibitive feature they will never ride. So I'd assume there is a silent majority that either don't mind, or outright condone, this kind of trail modification.


In this case it is a completely optional line so there is no argument that the LM's or riders may say "well we want to make sure it's rideable for everyone". Nobody has to ride it. It's a side spur about 20 feet from the main trail, it's only reason for being there is to hit the optional drop. In fact most people what haven't ridden the area would have no idea it's there. AND even better it's on a trail that has THREE of these signs on it (Both ends and the middle):


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Me too man.
> 
> Maybe that's what's happened: there are so many toddlers and pre-schoolers hitting the trails these days that entire regions of the country are dedicating the majority of their trail systems to them.
> 
> On a side note - we've got a big Halloween ride this coming weekend at a very technical place; usually a few hundred riders show up for it. I used to love watching my son at 8 or 9 y/o on his little 24" consistently cruise past long lines of kitted up dudes walking $$$$ carbon 29ers through/around rock gardens. "How come those guys aren't riding dad?". :thumbsup:


I think it comes down to what you show your toddler/pre-schoolers. While mine might have gone up and over something that was ramped on his own, I'd bunny-hop him on stuff that wasn't, and once we were riding together ( I was able to ride along, and not hike the trail with him) he'd see me hopping the stuff that was ramped, avoiding the ramping. He now chooses to hit logs even if they are off to the side a bit. He searches for the tech. He'd rather pull his bike over something because he can't do it yet, than have it be cut out. Boy amazes me every time we ride.

I figure I speak for you at the same time.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

cobi said:


> In this case it is a completely optional line so there is no argument that the LM's or riders may say "well we want to make sure it's rideable for everyone". Nobody has to ride it. It's a side spur about 20 feet from the main trail, it's only reason for being there is to hit the optional drop. In fact most people what haven't ridden the area would have no idea it's there. AND even better it's on a trail that has THREE of these signs on it (Both ends and the middle):
> View attachment 1102156


I need to get a hold of several signs like that. I'd post them in sections like what I posted in post #5 of this thread.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

jochribs said:


> Harryman, is it fair to ask if insurance is playing a role in this sort of trail becoming the norm?
> 
> I understand that the builders build what they are hired to build. And what I've found is quite a few of them are quite defensive when even a whiff of question or criticism is sensed. This leads me to speculate that they are defensive because they have their livings tied up in this, and while they may not like it so much, they are somewhat forced to go along.
> 
> Just curious. I know that insurance has brought on some asinine rules and regulations in the areas of the trades.


I'd say it's unlikely. Land managers are usually well protected already, volunteer builders have no liability if they are working for the LM and professionals carry their own insurance.

IME, the inability to build tech trails is usually because the LM doesn't allow them and they'll have their reasons, some legit, some not.

The biggest misconception every trail org faces is that they choose not to build the trails that riders want. We all hear it. "Why didn't you build a trail from A to B?" and "Why didn't you build a trail like I want you to?" The reality is that to build a trail legally on public land, you are wholly constrained by the agency that manages it. It's not us, it's them. So, you end up often with new trails that some people b!tch about, but at least you end up with new trails. And, moving forward, you can push for more tech. Things do change, we've finally gotten to the point where we can build the trails we'd like to in places where they are appropriate. Our parks dept is fully on board at last.


----------



## bikeCOLORADO (Sep 4, 2003)

Pave it all!!!!


----------



## Joules (Oct 12, 2005)

Harryman said:


> I'd say it's unlikely. Land managers are usually well protected already, volunteer builders have no liability if they are working for the LM and professionals carry their own insurance.


It's true that it's basically impossible to successfully sue an LM, so in that sense they don't have much/any liability, but the ones I work with definitely feel that injuries on features they approved would be bad for them professionally. We have one trail that was specifically designed as a tech trail, the state park dept decided it had to bulldoze the whole thing; it was basically a career-killer for the guy that approved it.

It sucks, but that sort of risk-aversion is totally rational for some LMs, given the irrational system they have to work in.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

^^ And that's what I was getting at. It seems to me that it does have an effect on some level, even if not directly.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

If it's an 18" ledge up and 30" drop down, I couldn't ride it. But I wouldn't even think of modifying the trail so that I could.

Let me squirt some more lighter fluid on this fire:

This is my concern for letting ANY so called ebike have access to mt bike trails. You know you'd get guys too lazy to ride an actual bicycle who'd be doing this crap so they didn't have to lift their overweight mopeds. And people arguing that the elderly/disabled need trails sanitized so they can "have the same access".

I do like that sign. Is that on the original trail the OP is talking about?


----------



## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

I blame Flow trails and the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality of this generation (It's OK for kids to learn how to lose and how to deal with bullies too, but that's a whole 'nuther discussion). Nothing wrong with flow trails, but we shouldn't be making every trail a flow trail. Slow, challenging technical features are fun..... but I will say, as I ride with different riders I find fewer and fewer like-minded people who actually love that kind of stuff. You and I (and slapheadmofo's son) are a dying breed, Mike.

I went riding with some friends down at Hurricane this past weekend and when I told them that you and skippy spent 7 hours one day just tooling around the Guacamole trail trying different off-line features and boulders they couldn't believe it. I'm guessing 5MOH wouldn't be their thing either. 

RE: the ramp up onto the rock drop that you pictured.... My guess is they were planning on coming back on another day to build an equally sanitized ramp off the back. (Beautiful rockwork btw. Too bad it was wasted on somewhere it shouldn't have been).


----------



## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Makes zero difference what the land manager wants if you're there tossing rocks off a cliff.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Mrwhlr said:


> Makes zero difference what the land manager wants if you're there tossing rocks off a cliff.


 Have you read the posts? Cleaning up braids and B lines not in the original trail layout? I do it all the time. The point IS to work with the land manager to get clear communication on how trails are to be laid out, constructed properly, techniques to be used like rolling grade dips, drainage where needed and such. The PROBLEM lies with every rider doing their OWN trail work. Not in accordance with the land managers and the trail builders/ workers. Drives me 'freakin batty. Dude.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

For those with a strong bend towards sanitation, I'll recommend redirecting your efforts towards the BLM/USFS vault toilets.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

^^Gold!!


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Joules said:


> It's true that it's basically impossible to successfully sue an LM, so in that sense they don't have much/any liability, but the ones I work with definitely feel that injuries on features they approved would be bad for them professionally. We have one trail that was specifically designed as a tech trail, the state park dept decided it had to bulldoze the whole thing; it was basically a career-killer for the guy that approved it.
> 
> It sucks, but that sort of risk-aversion is totally rational for some LMs, given the irrational system they have to work in.


Yeah, although you'll normally get it up front, not after the trail is built. We've got a state park supervisor here who simply doesn't like bikes, while the previous one did. There's a new trail being built that he's banning bikes on as a "safety measure" even though the park is already 100% bike legal. It's just his way of accomplishing what he wants, it's not based on reality.

If you're building trails with natural features instead of wood ramps and skinnys, you're reducing the legal exposure as well, at least that's what I've been told.

Our LM's won't let us post any signs describing the difficulty and potential risks exepct generic green/blue/black since by warning a user, you are making yourself liable for not telling them ALL the risks. By not telling them anything, you're better off. I'm not a lawyer thankfully, but that's how they operate.

It's just like skateparks were 20 years ago, most places wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole and after they realized they weren't getting sued left and right they are now common. Same thing here with bikes, they want bike parks and tech trails. 10 years ago? Nope.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

KRob said:


> I blame Flow trails and the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality of this generation (It's OK for kids to learn how to lose and how to deal with bullies too, but that's a whole 'nuther discussion). Nothing wrong with flow trails, but we shouldn't be making every trail a flow trail. Slow, challenging technical features are fun..... but I will say, as I ride with different riders I find fewer and fewer like-minded people who actually love that kind of stuff. You and I (and slapheadmofo's son) are a dying breed, Mike.
> 
> I went riding with some friends down at Hurricane this past weekend and when I told them that you and skippy spent 7 hours one day just tooling around the Guacamole trail trying different off-line features and boulders they couldn't believe it. I'm guessing 5MOH wouldn't be their thing either.
> 
> RE: the ramp up onto the rock drop that you pictured.... My guess is they were planning on coming back on another day to build an equally sanitized ramp off the back. (Beautiful rockwork btw. Too bad it was wasted on somewhere it shouldn't have been).


Great memory, Kent. Not sure we even hit all of Guac that day, either!

I recognize that I'm a relic WRT what I think is fun on the trail. Well-built flow trails can be fun, but I like a lot more meat in my diet and am willing to expend the effort to get to it. That's as it should be. What's not right is when I go out of my way looking for it and find ADA compliant ramps instead.

5MOH! May be heading there this weekend. There may not be a more flowless set of trails on the planet. Amen!


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

DaveVt said:


> Ya know, we're trying to grow the sport here, and you're not helping. Mountain Bike tourism is here to stay, so we're making everything ride-able so more people will come and spend all that money in your town. I'm sure there's plenty of old, eroded trails that you can ride. You're just a selfish hater. Times change, you're just a relic. If it's so easy for you just ride it faster.
> 
> (all the above, totally lame excuses have ben thrown at me for years. I fought that battle rebuilding mandatory features for a decade is Stowe, Vt only to eventually tap out and move to another town. The malignancy has followed me and is spreading. After 20 years of trail work and building many of the trails now sold for tourism, I'm told I have to move farther out to enjoy trails that require some skill to navigate without walking a spot or two. When you create something that others suddenly see value in, it will be taken from you by self appointed experts bringing change without improvement for their own, personal gain. 'Merica.)


What about just dismounting and walking around obstacles? That's what I did when I started (and still do in many instances). Why should the better riders have to be limited by those with lesser skills? There's nothing selfish in the OP's attitude. If the original trailbuilders put in an obstacle then it stays.

Edit: Sorry Dave, missed where you were going with that.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Mookie said:


> What about just dismounting and walking around obstacles? That's what I did when I started (and still do in many instances). Why should the better riders have to be limited by those with lesser skills? There's nothing selfish in the OP's attitude. If the original trailbuilders put in an obstacle then it stays.


Bingo!

And I don't even play Bingo.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Mookie said:


> What about just dismounting and walking around obstacles? That's what I did when I started (and still do in many instances). Why should the better riders have to be limited by those with lesser skills? There's nothing selfish in the OP's attitude. If the original trailbuilders put in an obstacle then it stays.


I think you might have missed the text in the ( ), I did the same thing when I first read this then finished and was all










I see


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

rockcrusher said:


> I think you might have missed the text in the ( ), I did the same thing when I first read this then finished and was all
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, I do see now.
Sorry DaveVt, I didn't quite get your angle.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Mookie said:


> Ah, I do see now.
> Sorry DaveVt, I didn't quite get your angle.


So where does that leave me? I agreed with your response.


----------



## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

It's everywhere!!! :eekster:


----------



## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

Fuçk yeah, Bill!


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> So where does that leave me? I agreed with your response.


This is getting confusing now, I think.

I tried to explain that to you a couple days ago when you took Dave's post and me saying "Well spoken Dave" as being 'for sanitization and dumbing things down'. You never responded and so I just figured you thought we were pro handi-wipe.

You must have been skimming again....


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

jochribs said:


> This is getting confusing now, I think.
> 
> I tried to explain that to you a couple days ago when you took Dave's post and me saying "Well spoken Dave" as being 'for sanitization and dumbing things down'. You never responded and so I just figured you thought we were pro handi-wipe.
> 
> You must have been skimming again....


No need to respond to that, you put me in my place. This last one was just an inside joke with Mookie, we go back aways.


----------



## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> Just move to an economically challenged area where no one mountain bikes, I wouldn't mind if someone came and sanitized a few of the nearly unrideable trails in my neighborhood. The grass is always greener...


Yep.

I'd tolerate pretty much any modification someone would make if it meant someone else was out here doing trail work.


----------



## oldbroad (Mar 19, 2004)

Stuff like that just makes you want to dope slap people. Grrr.

Many years ago, there was only one place in town to ride and it was all beginner to advanced novice level trails, so permission was given to build a new system of trails across town that was geared towards the more intermediate/advanced riders. A lot of thought was put into the design with lots of natural & some man-made features - it was meant to be challenging. It could be incredibly frustrating and was incredibly fun. 

There was some sanitizing so signs were put up and that really helped for a while. Then the original builders & maintainers moved on and the effort to keep it's original spirit faded away. I don't like riding there much anymore because I remember what it use to be like.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> No need to respond to that, you put me in my place. This last one was just an inside joke with Mookie, we go back aways.


Ah, don't feel that I was putting you in your place DJ. I knew that you miss interpreted it. Was just explaining. We're on the same team methinks.


----------



## Lawson Raider (Jul 24, 2006)

I have to agree with mikesee on this one - In Fruita and GJ, there are plenty of trails to ride and for all skill levels - as a rider, it is your responsibility to ride trails that are in your skill level and if you choose to ride a trail that is over your level, then you should expect features that are above your skill level and walk those or attempt to ride them and accept the risk involved.

There is no shame of walking a feature that you are not comfortable with.. only takes a few seconds of your time to get over the obstacle and ride again.


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Unfortunately, I'm seeing this trend as a developing standard. There are numerous areas where I'm seeing the relocation and removal of rocks or natural obstacles to make all trails passable to the incompetent. I have also considered that some have done this to inch them up on the Strava Segment leader-board. 

The reasons for this matters not. The problem is that it's happening and we should remain vigilant to not only find those who are doing this, but to encourage those to develop the skill set to accomplish the trail as it is. 

Very disappointing indeed.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

oldbroad said:


> Stuff like that just makes you want to dope slap people. Grrr.
> 
> Many years ago, there was only one place in town to ride and it was all beginner to advanced novice level trails, so permission was given to build a new system of trails across town that was geared towards the more intermediate/advanced riders. A lot of thought was put into the design with lots of natural & some man-made features - it was meant to be challenging. It could be incredibly frustrating and was incredibly fun.
> 
> There was some sanitizing so signs were put up and that really helped for a while. Then the original builders & maintainers moved on and the effort to keep it's original spirit faded away. I don't like riding there much anymore because I remember what it use to be like.


There's a trail system nearby that has a variety of challenging trails. About 10+ years ago some folks added some very challenging man-made elements (ex. wooden structures, bridges between trees, etc), which lots of guys enjoyed for a period of time. They were summarily destroyed a few years later and it's unclear if it was unruly fellow riders or local residents bordering the park.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

jochribs said:


> Ah, don't feel that I was putting you in your place DJ. I knew that you miss interpreted it. Was just explaining. We're on the same team methinks.


Yes, the team of the righteous trail inspectors.


----------



## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

mikesee said:


> Anyone recognize this move? It's from the Lunch Loop in Grand Junction, Colorado. My backyard, literally and figuratively.
> 
> _(click to make bigger)_
> 
> ...


oh man, that goes way too far, especially on a B-line off of the main trail!

This may be slightly off topic for the origin post, but might address other issues regarding to dumbing down trails that have been brought up in this thread. I do trail work on 4 different systems, in 3 parks within the city of Philadelphia; the trail systems run the gamut from heavily trafficked multi user trails, out of the way and under utilized trails that few people know about, highly technical, tight & twisty trails festooned with logs, rocks and features where one needs trials-like bike handling, and a short, 1-3/4 mile system of groomed "flow" trails.

*Wissahickon*
Each trail system has different user needs and sustainability demands from the ecology and terrain, as well as different pressures from the land managers. The first, the Wissahickon gorge, is perhaps the most well known and used trail in the city, and sees heavy use from hikers, equestrians and mountain bikers; it has also received the most complaints about sanitization from users. There are multiple reasons that the trails have gotten "dumbed down" over the years: First, many of the trails were unsustainably built on fall lines, had inadequate drainage and were subject to intense erosion. While an argument might be made that this made the trails very interesting and fun to ride, (it most certainly did), it also created stormwater runoff, erosion and sediment issues. Recently, the Philadelphia Water Department began investing in restoring the watershed, closing and/or rerouting trails that had eroded into hollow ways and ruts, causing sedimentation and pollution in a waterway responsible in part, for providing fresh water to a city of 1.5 million people. Rather than rely on amateur volunteers, a professional trail builder was brought in to construct sustainable, machine built trails that will hopefully require less maintenance to maintain over the years. Unfortunately, machine built trails mean that at least on the outset, that they're the 3 foot wide, ada compliant wheelchair paths that everyone *****es about, at least until they're bedded in and the forest undergrowth encroaches back.

The second reason, and this applies to nearly every multi-user trail system on public land in the country: They're multi-user trails, used by not only the mountain biking community, but by hikers of every age and equestrians. As such, there is intense pressure from land managers to make the trails not only sustainable, but safe for every user. This means the senior citizen hikers, novice horseback riders and beginner mountain bikers, as well as oldheads who'd rather ride tech on their 1993 Konas without suspension. We try to put in subversive features like grade reversals on long gentle descents that effectively become jump lines or challenging routes through rocks, but ultimately, in the name of reducing user conflict, it becomes nearly impossible to put in sweet jumps on trails used more often by seniors and children, than people on bikes.

The third reason that the trails became sanitized, falls entirely on the mountain biking community. Lines that were once narrow climbs up rooty and rocky ascents, have become 8 foot wide paths because some riders don't want to ride them and push the trails out instead of going along, falling or persevering until they get through. Twisty sections get straightened out because some riders want speed and flow instead of tech and expanding their bike handling skills. I'm not going to blame Strava, although Stravatards do abound, but rather a more encompassing sense of entitlement for immediate satisfaction that is prevalent in our culture today.

*Creshiem*
The Creshiem trails are a little known feeder system off of the Wissahickon gorge, with their own user group that stands apart from the Friends of the Wissahickon. Like the Wiss, the Creshiem are built under the rubric of a multi-user trail system, but unlike the Wissahickon, the trails are under less donor pressure and the friends group that builds and maintains it, are mostly cyclists, with a few hiking advocates lending a hand. Because of the size of the trail system and the relative lack of use, we're able to build trails that are more tailored to mountain biking, with some relatively technical rock sections, a +100 foot log ride and some kickers and sweet jumps. because the use of the trails have been relatively limited to people from the neighborhood or those in the know, user conflicts have been rare and to my knowledge, limited to a would-be do-gooder tearing out a ramp that we'd installed. In the long range, though, we will face pressure as we grow the trail system into a multi county rails to trails project, to pave sections and increase accessibility, but for the time being, we have carte blanche to build what we want and have created a veritable mama bear of trails: fun, yet accessible with a modicum of challenges for even seasoned riders.

*The Belmont Plateau*

The Belmont Plateau represents the more technical extreme of Philly trails. The trail wizards there are oldhead XC guys who have been riding and building trails in West Fairmount park for the better part of nearly 30 years. In many ways, the ideal bike for the Plateau is a 90's vintage, rigid 26er, as the trails are tight and twisty, with a LOT of logovers, a few step-up ledges and other features- the trail runs across a trolley platform that's overgrown with trees and has been abandoned since the 40's & through the foundations of buildings that were long destroyed; there have been no b-lines or go-arounds, either you make it trough or you hike a bike. to stem the dumbing down of the trails, many of the corners have been armored on the inside and out with rocks, logs and other material found in the park, many loges have been tied down with rebar and/or baling wire. Newbies tend to ride the plateau once and swear to never come back, or simply persevere out of spite until the fall in love with the place. Thanks to the recent and growing popularity of a 27-year underground race series, the park has become more popular with mountain bikers in the city and as a result, the Belmont Plateau Trails Alliance has grown. West Fairmount Park, once a haven for packs of wild dogs, prostitution and illicit drug use, has gotten markedly safer thanks to the presence of mountain bikers. As a result, use of the park has increased, not just by the mountain biking and cyclocross communities, but by families from the surrounding neighborhoods.

The net benefit of mountain biking to the park has not gone unnoticed by the city, the Fairmount Park Commission and Philadelphia Parks and Recreation Committee. This has been both good and bad for the trails. It's been good in that it has opened up more resources and grants have been made available to us; once rogue trails have been legitimized and made more sustainable and the park's land manager and volunteer coordinator has been very responsive to our request for new trails and making improvements to existing trails. However, the city agencies, having seen how good our presence has been in making the park safe and opening it up to the rest of the neighborhood, wants more. They want more opportunities for neighborhood involvement on the trails and to that end, they've proposed a series of trails through the park on long abandoned trolley lines. Unfortunately, for the bikers who love the challenges of the old Belmont trails, this means a system of flat-ish, beginner-friendly trails, free of logs and other obstacles that could injure an inexperienced trail user. Trails wide enough to accommodate horses and or hikers walking side by side. The Belmont Plateau Trails Alliance has had to fight tooth and nail to preserve the character of the trails we've developed, but unfortunately, in order to have our way, we've had to concede to the city's desires. Fortunately, the city and parks department have no money to enact their vision just yet and we've been able to successfully state our case to preserve the existing trails, while making compromises to accommodate the new trail system. In some ways, the success and growing popularity of mountain biking is working against us and leading to the types of trails that more experienced users don't want.

*The Philly Pumptrack, Crossbow & PSK (Parkside Killa) Flow Trails*
The Crossbow and PSK Flow Trails are the 4th and latest trail system that I've been involved with and to an extent, is the apotheosis of what people in this thread are b¡tching about. The trails have grown out of the Philly Pumptrack and are intended to be a bridge to the BMX-centric pumptrack and the technical mountain bike-oriented trails at the Belmont Plateau that they're connected to. They're entirely machine built. They're fast. They are, for the most part, beginner friendly. We've removed most of the roots from the rail surface, which is a loamy, sandy mixture of organic material, clay and mica schist. We've built a few low berms, table tops, gaps, kickers and jumps. There are is a section that features a short descent at a 20º grade, with grade reversals that allow s fair amount of air time. It's pretty much everything that we don't, or aren't allowed to do at the other trails. That said, we have had a lot of success with it. The Pumptrack, which caters to a predominantly urban, teenage demographic, has had quite a few kids who've gone from 20" BMX to 26" dirt jumpers and even mountain bikes, and have started riding trails not only here, but the Belmont Plateau. We built the trails so that there are b-lines and go-arounds, to give options to inexperienced riders and ultimately prepare them for the more technical trails at the Plateau. I can't say that it's been entirely successful on that note, as the B-lines are better worn in, but even the more experienced riders have been enjoying the diversion of a different style of trail in the park.

My point of this rambling treatise is that there are multiple pressures that sanitize the trails both inside and out. As the sport is growing in popularity once again, those pressures will increase, as new riders seek out places to ride and land managers look to increase accessibility. I understand the oldhead mentality of "I've paid my dues, I just want to ride." However, the best way to push against those pressures it to get involved with trail user groups and continue to make your voice heard against the din of calls for increased accessibility.


----------



## cobi (Apr 29, 2008)

chazpat said:


> I do like that sign. Is that on the original trail the OP is talking about?


Yes. There are three. At the beginning, a section in the middle right before the squeeze through to "The Cross" and then at the other end (in case someone wants to ride up it I guess?). If there is more I don't remember where, but you would think 3 is enough?


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gigantic said:


> *Wissahickon*
> Each trail system has different user needs and sustainability demands from the ecology and terrain, as well as different pressures from the land managers. The first, the Wissahickon gorge, is perhaps the most well known and used trail in the city, and sees heavy use from hikers, equestrians and mountain bikers; it has also received the most complaints about sanitization from users. There are multiple reasons that the trails have gotten "dumbed down" over the years: First, many of the trails were unsustainably built on fall lines, had inadequate drainage and were subject to intense erosion. While an argument might be made that this made the trails very interesting and fun to ride, (it most certainly did), it also created stormwater runoff, erosion and sediment issues. Recently, the Philadelphia Water Department began investing in restoring the watershed, closing and/or rerouting trails that had eroded into hollow ways and ruts, causing sedimentation and pollution in a waterway responsible in part, for providing fresh water to a city of 1.5 million people. Rather than rely on amateur volunteers, a professional trail builder was brought in to construct sustainable, machine built trails that will hopefully require less maintenance to maintain over the years. Unfortunately, machine built trails mean that at least on the outset, that they're the 3 foot wide, ada compliant wheelchair paths that everyone *****es about, at least until they're bedded in and the forest undergrowth encroaches back.
> 
> The second reason, and this applies to nearly every multi-user trail system on public land in the country: They're multi-user trails, used by not only the mountain biking community, but by hikers of every age and equestrians. As such, there is intense pressure from land managers to make the trails not only sustainable, but safe for every user. This means the senior citizen hikers, novice horseback riders and beginner mountain bikers, as well as oldheads who'd rather ride tech on their 1993 Konas without suspension. We try to put in subversive features like grade reversals on long gentle descents that effectively become jump lines or challenging routes through rocks, but ultimately, in the name of reducing user conflict, it becomes nearly impossible to put in sweet jumps on trails used more often by seniors and children, than people on bikes.
> ...


Wow, thanks for the update on Wissahickon. This is where I started mountain biking in 1994 on a rigid Univega. The trails off the main were just old hiking trails with many big boulder sections, leading me to usually be bleeding and bruised by the time I rode back to my apartment in Chestnut Hill. I remember one trail lead to a statue of a Native American that seemed to be just randomly located out in the woods.

I would love to explore those trails again and the others you described. I was at the Wissahickon parking lot a couple of years ago but I was just visiting with my family and wasn't able to get out at all.


----------



## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I must be in the tiny minority here...

Im glad theres bypasses. Im all for having an easy bypass route. Leave the hard stuff there, but whenever possible, trail planning should include a bypass. 

If you have a trail with no bypass and a bunch of rough stuff, someones going to sanitize it. If we preplanned in advance and created sustainable bailouts, I think we'd stand a better chance of maintaining the hard features we actually want to ride.

Theres a pretty casual trail I ride with a HUGE feature on the side. It looks like a 10 foot freefall before the transition, which is also pretty steep. Its the sort of feature people literally die on. You cant just stuff riders down that with no option. Its still there today because its so easy to ride around. 

Nothing sucks more than coming to your favorite section of trail and finding the feature is gone... but as long as its sustainable, do you guys really care that much if theres a new bypass? Im not going to take the bypass, and it doesnt seem to take away anything from my ride. I hit the hard part, enjoy it, and keep on going. Sometimes, overtime, it seems like the availability of the bypass allows the harder section to get harder over time. That adds challenge too.


----------



## iliketexmex (Oct 29, 2016)

I blame Bigfoot... Or aliens. I am pretty sure it was one of them


----------



## Matterhorn (Feb 15, 2015)

Sanitization thread gone too far.


----------



## iliketexmex (Oct 29, 2016)

]I am not for sanitizing nor do I think every trail should be newbified (can I use that word?), but bypasses are not evil. In fact I like to see them. They allow me to ride with my newbie friends and worry less about them getting hurt when I hit features they shouldn't. I have introduced a lot of newbies to the sport, (over a dozen) they are not shredders but some have become advocates and volunteers. 

I am surprised at the vitriol expressed towards less skilled riders (who almost surely think they are helping), especially considering how much access to public lands has been taken away recently. Most people are not not so intense, but we should welcome them and teach them. Having a larger part of the population personally invested in the sport is important too. It makes a louder voice in the public discussion. It decreases the likelihood that stupid legislation or bureaucratic decrees will come along to limit access, it also increases the likelihood of greater land access. 

I am sure I will get hate over that statement. Don't hate your brother. Save that energy for some volunteer work on the trails like I do. I spend more hours trail building than riding. Place signs informing riders not to change features without steward approval. Build a beginner loop near your local, identify it clearly and place warnings at the higher level trails or diversions. Properly marked advanced sections with bypasses will be left alone (when sustainably built).


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

So you joined this site to make a few points in this thread? I'm thinking you are a regular hiding behind a new name for fear of ridicule.


----------



## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Why would a bypass or simpler go around NOT be a good thing?


----------



## evdog (Mar 18, 2007)

DethWshBkr said:


> Why would a bypass or simpler go around NOT be a good thing?


Because...where does it end? Designing go-rounds into a trail is one thing, and totally fine. But when riders think it is acceptable to create their own you can end up with a huge mess. Everyone has a different skill level. Rider 1 might want go-rounds for only the hardest features. Rider 2 isn't as skilled and will want go-rounds for a bunch more. Then a new rider comes along, and wants go rounds for everything else. And he wants all the rocks dug out because the trail is too "bumpy". Now your cool technical trail is a flat pathway. What's more it is human nature to take the easiest route. Without forcing people to get better most never will. It turns into a never ending feedback loop of lameness.

In San diego we have morons digging embedded rock out of trails. We have trails that have go-rounds for the go-rounds. It turns trails into an embarrassing mess that makes us look bad as a user group. What is so bad about walking a few sections that are too hard for you to ride? Not every trail is meant to be rideable by every person.


----------



## rockhopper97 (Jul 30, 2014)

as far as walking a section of trail, I think some people feel like a failure if they have to do that.....little do many know that's what was done in the days of bullmoose handlebars, cantilever brakes, rigid forks and beartrap pedals.... below is my 86 schwinn sierra, I think many of the newer ( and maybe younger) people in the sport would freak at the idea of riding this down trails some people feel they need full suspension... I personally like back to basics trail rides.....I do get some funny looks sometimes though when people see me ride past them on some of the trails...lol


----------



## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Great memory, Kent.


Great post.

Have fun at 5MOH. I still have that one on my to do list.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jasonmax (Jan 21, 2015)

DaveVt said:


> Ya know, we're trying to grow the sport here, and you're not helping. Mountain Bike tourism is here to stay, so we're making everything ride-able so more people will come and spend all that money in your town. I'm sure there's plenty of old, eroded trails that you can ride. You're just a selfish hater. Times change, you're just a relic. If it's so easy for you just ride it faster.
> 
> (all the above, totally lame excuses have ben thrown at me for years. I fought that battle rebuilding mandatory features for a decade is Stowe, Vt only to eventually tap out and move to another town. The malignancy has followed me and is spreading. After 20 years of trail work and building many of the trails now sold for tourism, I'm told I have to move farther out to enjoy trails that require some skill to navigate without walking a spot or two. When you create something that others suddenly see value in, it will be taken from you by self appointed experts bringing change without improvement for their own, personal gain. 'Merica.)


That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever read


----------



## iliketexmex (Oct 29, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> So you joined this site to make a few points in this thread? I'm thinking you are a regular hiding behind a new name for fear of ridicule.


I actually did. I have no fear of ridicule. Life is too short for that. I actually came across this site looking for some guidance on some new kit. Quite frankly there are too many opinions to be of much use, so I started poking around.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jasonmax said:


> That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever read


You likely totally missed the point. 
Might want to go back and read the entire post.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

rockhopper97 said:


> as far as walking a section of trail, I think some people feel like a failure if they have to do that.....little do many know that's what was done in the days of bullmoose handlebars, cantilever brakes, rigid forks and beartrap pedals.... below is my 86 schwinn sierra, I think many of the newer ( and maybe younger) people in the sport would freak at the idea of riding this down trails some people feel they need full suspension... I personally like back to basics trail rides.....I do get some funny looks sometimes though when people see me ride past them on some of the trails...lol


I like those old Jamis bikes that have the little curved piece between the top tube and the seat tube for shouldering the bike. They expected you to be hiking at times.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

DethWshBkr said:


> Why would a bypass or simpler go around NOT be a good thing?


One of my local Sorba chapters has taken this approach, building in bypasses and alt lines. These are little trail sections, not just wider paths around. These are heavily trafficked trails.

But riders creating their own isn't cool. Hikers do the same thing, mostly just stupid shortcuts. I was just noticing yesterday morning when trail running in a National Park Service Forest a shortcut that has become embedded in. It saves maybe 10 seconds of walking.


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

*Now look where this is going....*

Geezzzz....


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chazpat said:


> Hikers do the same thing, mostly just stupid shortcuts. I was just noticing yesterday morning when trail running in a National Park Service Forest a shortcut that has become embedded in. It saves maybe 10 seconds of walking.


Probably strava walkers chasing KOM's.


----------



## BykerMike (Aug 3, 2016)

I guess I'm lucky to a point where I live (lower michigan) There isn't a lot of elevation change so most trails involve quite a bit of tech to keep them interesting. There are bypasses though around most of the tougher features in a few of the trails that I frequent. Some look intentional others look like they came to be from people just riding around and creating a line around it. I actually don't see any issue with bypasses as long as the harder features are left intact. Much like in life you can choose the easy path or hard path, the hard path is more rewarding but the choice is a good thing IMO.


----------



## Lawson Raider (Jul 24, 2006)

We could just turn all singletrack into paved trails - after all we have to open the trails to all skill levels.  - being sarcastic of course.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Lawson Raider said:


> We could just turn all singletrack into paved trails - after all we have to open the trails to all skill levels.  - being sarcastic of course.


Joke all you want it's coming to a trail head near you.


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I see the trails that we ride synonymous to the ski slopes. If you not skilled and capable to ski the double blacks, then you go ski a run within your capabilities. 

I guess it's a little harder to go 'dumb down' the slopes to meet inadequacies.


----------



## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> Probably strava walkers chasing KOM's.


I don't think this is the case, because everyone would be faster, not just the rock stacker.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

It's a sad time we are living in, it was an outrage when they did this.

They paved Fruitas Horsethief Drop-In.









The original trail was just too difficult for most.









Complements to: Bikeabout


----------



## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> It's a sad time we are living in, it was an outrage when they did this.
> 
> They paved Fruitas Horsethief Drop-In.
> 
> View attachment 1102521


Whoa, that one dude's back wheel melted into the pavement!


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Chiming in here to say that lower Porcupine is a completely different experience for riders now, and I find it quite sad. I always liked sessioning those lowest features to see how far I could get, as it was never (for me) totally cleanable. 
C'est la vie.


----------



## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

rideit said:


> Chiming in here to say that lower Porcupine is a completely different experience for riders now, and I find it quite sad. I always liked sessioning those lowest features to see how far I could get, as it was never (for me) totally cleanable.
> C'est la vie.


That's true but the features were erosion-induced. When I first rode Porcupine in the late 80s the singletrack was 1 foot wide and mostly dirt. A decently skilled rider could clean pretty much all of it fully rigid with rim brakes. Same for Portal. It's not really the same deal. I'd call that maintenance rather than sanitation. Perhaps a topic for a different thread and it's a gray area for sure.

The example in question in this thread is a technical braid with a feature meant to be ridden without a ramp. It's not difficult because of erosion or rider impact. It's difficult because that's how the trail builder intended it to be.


----------



## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

We desanitized a trail yesterday, moving a 1000# rock up a steep 60' embankment with a grip hoist and strong backs, to place it in the trail. We finished in the dark, will ride when the sun rises. 

__
http://instagr.am/p/BMKhokdgfG4/


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Honestly, I think sanitization is OK when there is only one line option and it's on through trail or connector trail. It does make the sport more accessible to many people. BUT, in areas where there are route options, and trails like the one photoed for which it is a "B" line, it makes no sense at all.

"Flow" is the new "Tech" to many people, and if it ain't got that flow, it's got to be fixed. I couldn't disagree more. That flow approach is used so heavily in marketing now, it's what many assume should be the reality of the trails. 

My favorite trails always end up being backcountry trails that are so underdeveloped that they haven't even specified what types of use are allowed, and may only see one trail user a day.


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

*What's Wrong With Walking a Section of Trail That Is Beyond Your Skill Level?*



brentos said:


> Honestly, I think sanitization is OK when there is only one line option and it's on through trail or connector trail. It does make the sport more accessible to many people. BUT, in areas where there are route options, and trails like the one photoed for which it is a "B" line, it makes no sense at all.


I can't disagree more. Why should a trail be sanitized to meet the riding capabilities of the lowest skilled rider? What's wrong with them walking their bike through the technical section and climbing back on to continue on to their destination. Why should we expect to dumb down a trail because they are incapable or unwilling to better their skill?

I see this as complete absurdity.


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

rockman said:


> That's true but the features were erosion-induced. When I first rode Porcupine in the late 80s the singletrack was 1 foot wide and mostly dirt. A decently skilled rider could clean pretty much all of it fully rigid with rim brakes. Same for Portal. It's not really the same deal. I'd call that maintenance rather than sanitation. Perhaps a topic for a different thread and it's a gray area for sure.
> 
> The example in question in this thread is a technical braid with a feature meant to be ridden without a ramp. It's not difficult because of erosion or rider impact. It's difficult because that's how the trail builder intended it to be.


Totally ot, but there always was the lowest wash and the big boulders before it that were HAB zones for the technology of the day...


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

brentos said:


> Honestly, I think sanitization is OK when there is only one line option and it's on through trail or connector trail. It does make the sport more accessible to many people. BUT, in areas where there are route options, and trails like the one photoed for which it is a "B" line, it makes no sense at all.
> 
> "Flow" is the new "Tech" to many people, and if it ain't got that flow, it's got to be fixed. I couldn't disagree more. That flow approach is used so heavily in marketing now, it's what many assume should be the reality of the trails.
> 
> My favorite trails always end up being backcountry trails that are so underdeveloped that they haven't even specified what types of use are allowed, and may only see one trail user a day.


Accessible to who? If you can't clear something, you walk it. There are sections I've been riding for years, never cleared and probably never will. So I walk them. The term accessible is supposed to mean, allowing someone who couldn't get there at all, to be able to get there. Are there any people who would turn back after seeing the obstacle in this post, but can now safely do it without getting off the bike so they push through? How about we nuke the final 1000m off Mt everest so more people can climb it.


----------



## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

I think we need @misterbill to chime in here since he had a recent experience with troublesome rocks. In his defense, these do look like some nasty rocks and I can't say with confidence that I'd clean them.


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Trevor Ochmonek said:


> In his defense, these do look like some nasty rocks and I can't say with confidence that I'd clean them.


Should we petition to have them leveled or back-filled so others could clean it?


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Cleared2land said:


> I can't disagree more. Why should a trail be sanitized to meet the riding capabilities of the lowest skilled rider? What's wrong with them walking their bike through the technical section and climbing back on to continue on to their destination. Why should we expect to dumb down a trail because they are incapable or unwilling to better their skill?
> 
> I see this as complete absurdity.


What I was getting at, and maybe failed to explain clearly, is that there should be trails available in an area to suit a wide range of skill levels. When planning and selecting which trails should be technical and which should be easy, the through trails should be the easy ones, easy trails can still be fun to ride. Keep in mind that in many places, mountain bike trails actually get from one place to another, instead of going in circles. Those trails that are optional routes, or "B" lines should be more challenging, to the point of near certain death. 

Trust me, I enjoy technical, high exposure trails as much or more (probably more) than the next guy. But if every trail in town was as challenging, exposed, and dangerous as my favorite local trail, we'd only have 5 mountain bikers in town...if that. Everyone else would think the effort and risk isn't worth it. That doesn't make for a very fun biking community. Further, I can guarantee that I would be the only one in my family mountain biking, and I really enjoy riding with my wife and kids.

I know where ya'll are coming from, I've undone sanitization efforts in fits of anger before too...

Back to the OP, I think whoever dumbed that down shouldn't have. It's suppose to be a more challenging trail, and there are others trails in the trail system that suit a wide range of skill levels. It would have angered me too. My best guess is that someone wanted to hit that "so rad" drop that they needed to build a ramp to get to it, killing the real challenging feature in the process.

Edit: Also, when I said "Sanitization is OK" in my original post, I meant organized trail improvement efforts, not random folks modifying the trail.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Oh, only 5 riders on a trail? Heck ya, I'm all for it! Walk the bike. Walk the bike...


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Mookie said:


> Oh, only 5 riders on a trail? Heck ya, I'm all for it! Walk the bike. Walk the bike...


I agree, part of what I love about the trail is that almost no one else rides it. It's my go-to escape from the real world, it demands that I focus on the ride and not daydream. I wouldn't change a thing about it. But the easier trails in town are the foundation of our growing, and fun, riding community.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Regardless of where your opinions fall on this topic, it seems like there is some controversy. I'm 42, been riding off road since I first got on a bike and was able to steer it onto dirt. I've been helping in creating trails since the mid-90s. The cool thing about MTBs is their capabilities. When you make the choice to ride a bicycle into the forest, you are making a choice to be challenged. 

There is all manner of cycling for folks to enjoy that have no expectation of technical skill beyond the basic operation of the bike. Miles of dirt roads, quiet paved roads, and other primitive pathways that are scenic, peaceful, and offer routes from "A" to "B". Let's really confront what is driving the development of easy trails. Capitalism.

The Industry want EVRYONE to be a MTBer. Folks in the trail business want work. It's not like there is some grass roots movement to build a boat load of easy trail. In fact, the folks who put in the time, from my experience in the North East, are the core riders. The folks who look for interesting and challenging features to route trail over, around, through. Then the entitled poser, victimized by the marketing of the lifestyle, and infatuated with the fancy, expensive gear tries to go for a ride, and realize they are not MTBers, despite just dropping 6 grand on a bicycle. They complain. Do they go out to create their own trails that fit their ability? No. They bemoan the fact that the trails are "Too Hard" and the local club transforms existing trails into something they can ride, forget progression of skill. They apply for grants to hire mechanized crews to make sidewalks. They don't want to be MTBers. They want to ride MTBs on excavator roads or dumbed down versions of the single tracks the dedicated locals created for themselves. The cash-flushed poser's experience is far more valuable to local clubs, who want increased membership.

For decades small tribes of dedicated enthusiasts created what they wanted to ride for the challenge, and for the growth in fitness and skills. Suddenly it was suggested there was a large potential for $. Everything changed, or is currently changing to meet that end. Sanitation, the creation of flow trails, the average retail price of MTBs are all a symptom of the same illness, and it's called capitalist exploitation. $.02


----------



## g34343greg (Dec 16, 2010)

eh, i'm far from the best, so if i can't clear an obstacle, I walk it. If there are too many obstacles and I find myself walking more than riding (like at Moraine State Park for those in Western PA), then I don't bother going there anymore.

What would I do if there were no trails in my area that I could ride? Well I'm not sure how you got into riding to start with if there were no easier trails around.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Dave, u da man.

I do gotta say there is hope though. 
Attended the Wicked Ride of the East yesterday at Harold Parker State Forest in MA.
Hundreds of riders and I can guarantee that better than 99% of those who rode the Int, Adv or Hero loops had to HAB at some point. Many, actually. Not everyone is shying away from mandatory tech. 

(Hats off the to North Shore NEMBA guys! I felt like I went on a real ****ing ride! :thumbsup


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

DaveVt said:


> Regardless of where your opinions fall on this topic, it seems like there is some controversy. I'm 42, been riding of road since I first got on a bike and was able to steer it onto dirt. I've been helping in creating trails since the mid-90s. The cool thing about MTBs is their capabilities. When you make the choice to ride a bicycle into the forest, you are making a choice to be challenged.
> 
> There is all manner of cycling for folks to enjoy that have no expectation of technical skill beyond the basic operation of the bike. Miles of dirt roads, quiet paved roads, and other primitive pathways that are scenic, peaceful, and offer routes from "A" to "B". Let's really confront what is driving the development of easy trails. Capitalism.
> 
> ...


Well the exchange rate on your $.02 is that it is actually worth $1 million.

Once again, saying it for what it is. Well spoken Dave.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)




----------



## Lawson Raider (Jul 24, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Joke all you want it's coming to a trail head near you.


I see it all the time here - even simple things that you wouldn't think folks would sanitize they do. Sad state of affairs I tell you.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Awesome DJ! It's even funnier listening to Chong talk about how they came up with that.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> Dave, u da man.
> 
> I do gotta say there is hope though.
> Attended the Wicked Ride of the East yesterday at Harold Parker State Forest in MA.
> ...


 I walk on almost every ride there. For 20' or a small up, and then start pedaling again. But in a group, almost every section, someone makes it. At least once. Close to 700 riders, great day had by all. Those with some blood showing got offered a 2nd cup of chili. The nice thing about Harold Parker is that it is mostly rocks, no trail sanitation for most of it. Sure some B lines, but it is either challenging or hard, no way around it.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Any pics Leeboh? Sounds like a great place.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

iliketexmex said:


> ]I am not for sanitizing nor do I think every trail should be newbified (can I use that word?), but bypasses are not evil. In fact I like to see them. They allow me to ride with my newbie friends and worry less about them getting hurt when I hit features they shouldn't. I have introduced a lot of newbies to the sport, (over a dozen) they are not shredders but some have become advocates and volunteers.
> 
> I am surprised at the vitriol expressed towards less skilled riders (who almost surely think they are helping), especially considering how much access to public lands has been taken away recently. Most people are not not so intense, but we should welcome them and teach them. Having a larger part of the population personally invested in the sport is important too. It makes a louder voice in the public discussion. It decreases the likelihood that stupid legislation or bureaucratic decrees will come along to limit access, it also increases the likelihood of greater land access.
> 
> I am sure I will get hate over that statement. Don't hate your brother. Save that energy for some volunteer work on the trails like I do. I spend more hours trail building than riding. Place signs informing riders not to change features without steward approval. Build a beginner loop near your local, identify it clearly and place warnings at the higher level trails or diversions. Properly marked advanced sections with bypasses will be left alone (when sustainably built).


 Ugg. As said before, just like a ski area, easy, moderate, difficult trails. You cannot make each trail for all users. There is a big difference between a B line around a tech or say a 3-5 ft rock and trail sanitizing. Like taking out 4" rocks, and cutting a corner on smooth dirt to save .5 seconds on the stravatard leader board. Ok so new riders, where are they going to ride once they have pedaled for 1 or 2 seasons? All the dumbed down trails? I do lots of trail work every year. The PROBLEM is me spending time to fix the trail hacks instead of time spent building good trail.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

jochribs said:


> Any pics Leeboh? Sounds like a great place.


 Maybe? I take pics for living but not when I'm out pedaling. 22 miles of marked loops yesterday. Some did 27 by going to the next trail area.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I posted this early on in the thread but I think it was skimmed over. So it gets a repeat performance.
___________________

I see it all the time in my area and it's been a major bich of mine for years. Most of the sanitation I come across can not be undone without a group of 8 workers a Bobcat and 8 hours of spare time.

Here's a section of trail in my area that they sanitized. A fun challenging section that was the same for years. Very little erosion problems. It was sanitized to make it easier.

The first video is taken prior to sanitation. Obviously I had no idea what was in its near future. Look closely to where the landscape timber is.

Devils Backbone #19 Video - Pinkbike

The second video is after sanitation. A different angle but if you look closely to where the landscape timber is you can see where they back filled it all in.

How to ruin a trail. Video - Pinkbike


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jochribs said:


> Any pics Leeboh? Sounds like a great place.


Endless stuff like this:


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Devils Backbone #19 Video - Pinkbike


Is that close to a trailhead? Looks pretty jammed with not so hardcore hikers. It does suck for mtb'ers but I expect that sort of thing on heavily used multi-use trails. Monsoons will eventually fix it.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Nice, and there is no sanitizing that.


----------



## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

On the local trail Saturday we found several places that had been filled-in. Usually I won't judge to harsh because I enjoy how the following months of erosion will make the trail difficult again, but slowly. One of the hay-seeds I love riding with overheard some guy railing about all the black dirt used to fill in the challenging spots. For the next two hours he kept saying "black dirt matters". I chose to take it as pure funny, not a racist slur, and kept giggling every time we'd reach one.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

It's worth adding the erosion should not be a trail feature. As new trails degrade, sometimes material needs to be added back to keep the trail riding as it should. Even as roots get exposed, the displaced material, usually organic duff, can be replaced with mineral dirt/crushed rock. Enough to protect the roots, and keep people on tread without eliminating them as a trail feature. Keeping a trail riding good is not the same as sanitation but over-doing it can.


----------



## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

"It's near the bottom of the Holy Cross, and has existed more or less intact (save for some natural erosion) for 15+ years."

Some of you fvckers need to refer back to this part.....


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jochribs said:


> Nice, and there is no sanitizing that.


And those are bi-directional trails, so the downs are all also ups. 
That's where things get good 'n tricky.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> And those are bi-directional trails, so the downs are all also ups.
> That's where things get good 'n tricky.


You're making it 'up' that?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jochribs said:


> You're making it 'up' that?


The first pic or second?

Second pic - not 100%, but likely even in the wet and leaves. Lots of folks ripping miles and miles of very similar stuff yesterday. Even the 'intermediate' loop had tons of similar terrain - it was no joke.

First pic, I've never made it up that and don't think I ever will, if I'm thinking of the right spot (don't get there very often). With a smooth run-up on dry day, probably not much problem with what's shown in the pic, but the real approach is no party and I definitely don't have the punch for an up like that from crawling speed anymore. 

But...for a strong rider having a good day, everything there IS rideable. There are lots of nice techy moves to be had, but you're gonna really have to work for some of them, and others, well, ya might not ever clean. Which is the whole point right? :thumbsup:

I'm willing to bet he guy in the picture (who also has done an astonishing amount of trailwork) is among the select few that have gotten up that thing. He was out there on a uni with a couple other freaks yesterday. They passed us.


----------



## DLd (Feb 15, 2005)

leeboh said:


> Ugg. As said before, just like a ski area, easy, moderate, difficult trails. You cannot make each trail for all users. There is a big difference between a B line around a tech or say a 3-5 ft rock and trail sanitizing. Like taking out 4" rocks, and cutting a corner on smooth dirt to save .5 seconds on the stravatard leader board. Ok so new riders, where are they going to ride once they have pedaled for 1 or 2 seasons? All the dumbed down trails? I do lots of trail work every year. The PROBLEM is me spending time to fix the trail hacks instead of time spent building good trail.


A lot of hate for Strava. I think the people that are on the Strava leaderboards are precisely the people that are already super fast and skilled at riding it as is. They don't want it dumbed down. Trail sanitation just as described (building ramps, removing rocks from trails, etc.) has been going on for long before Strava. It's just from new riders getting into the sport that haven't learned the ethics/attitude of mountain bike culture yet. I think a lot of people see that and think no one could possibly ride it, so they make a ramp, or they think, this trail would be so much nicer if it wasn't so bumpy, but they don't realize that's what gives the trail flavor and challenge and makes it so rewarding to keep coming back to.

Quote Originally Posted by rockhopper97 View Post
I have also had a-holes come out of nowhere and just about running me off the trail blowing by me... again, strava is evil

Again, so apparently anyone who goes faster than you is a Strav*******. Little known fact: People enjoyed riding mountain bikes fast, and even challenged each other to go faster before Strava.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> Close to 700 riders, great day had by all.


Quoted as proof that you don't have to have saturate a place with easy trails to attract riders. The video I posted was typical terrain for the "intermediate" loop. No punches were pulled, and people loved it.

:thumbsup:


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> The first pic or second?
> 
> Second pic - not 100%, but likely even in the wet and leaves. Lots of folks ripping miles and miles of very similar stuff yesterday. Even the 'intermediate' loop had tons of similar terrain - it was no joke.
> 
> ...


Ha! Yeah I was talking about the top pic. And I for some reason thought that was you. 
The second pic I'm pretty sure I could clean going up, following the line he appears to be going down, the pine needles could be a problem with the rocks though. I hear ya on needing the punch to get up stuff. Especially when you're already in the midst of a slightly taxing slow climb, and you need to burst to a higher cadence to get over and through something. 
Those unicycle guys are a wild sort of bunch! Lotta respect for them. At some point I have to make it up to Mass and ride with you guys.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Quoted as proof that you don't have to have saturate a place with easy trails to attract riders. The video I posted was typical terrain for the "intermediate" loop. No punches were pulled, and people loved it.
> 
> :thumbsup:


Was that vid yesterday?


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

DLd said:


> I think a lot of people see that and think no one could possibly ride it, so they make a ramp, or they think, this trail would be so much nicer if it wasn't so bumpy, but they don't realize that's what gives the trail flavor and challenge and makes it so rewarding to keep coming back to.


I think you're probably right for the most part but the trail the OP was talking about has signs that say it is a challenging trail and don't modify it. But, I used to design signage for a certain big orange box store that if you live in the US and parts of Canada/Mexico you've more than likely been in and learned that most people don't bother to read signs.


----------



## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Endless stuff like this:


That looks like the places I learned to mtb. I was hooked from day 1. It was the challenge of trying to conquer the unrideable (for me) that kept me coming back.

The park closest to me now has almost zero technical riding. It's just not in the topography. Last trail we built we put about 30 man hours into creating a rock garden. Didnt take long before the dirt roadies made a go around.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

jeffw-13 said:


> dirt roadies


doadies


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

I went back out to the Lunch Loop this evening for a little after work spin. Mondays in the shop are always chaotic, and by the time I can sneak out to ride I'm usually knackered. That was the case today, and meant that my ambitions were rather limited. Feeling puny on the initial climbs, I decided to go check on the Shopping Cart Move and do some _very_ fine tuning to my suspension.










I was both happy and unsurprised to see that the ramp hasn't been rebuilt. I set my camera down and shot some video, lapping it a total of 9 times in about 4 minutes, clearly showing that the move is quite straightforward. Also, in my opinion, making clear that in no way was the ramp needed for an average rider. Whether it was justified was never in question.

I was *wrong* in my initial assessment (aka guess) of the height of the drop off the boulder. In the initial post I estimated 2.5 feet, but verified this evening that it's actually just over 40". Which makes me wonder even more why someone built a ramp to get up there. Can't make an 18" up but ok with a 40" off?

Ooooooo-kaaaaaaaay...

The end result of the many laps up there was an acute realization of how far my skills have slipped in the last ~year: note how the last 3 drops off I'm all over the place and clearly tired. The upshot? All those laps convinced me to drop one more volume spacer from the fork and, having done that, I'm more motivated than ever to go ride some flowless chunk.

Ping me if you wanna join in...
​


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

J.B. Weld said:


> Is that close to a trailhead? Looks pretty jammed with not so hardcore hikers. It does suck for mtb'ers but I expect that sort of thing on heavily used multi-use trails. Monsoons will eventually fix it.


It's about 4 miles in. But there's a loop that most hikers do down below this. So this part of the trail doesn't get as many hikers as down below. Still pretty busy though on weekends.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jochribs said:


> Was that vid yesterday?


Nay - a few years back during the same event. None of the pics or vid are mine.

I'm not a huge 'event' guy, but if you like 'old school' riding and you're within striking distance, I would highly recommend putting the Wicked Ride, on your agenda. Course you can ride there anytime, but the marked routes and overall good vibe are pretty clutch. So is having a decent trackstand in your bag of tricks. 

More vid that ain't mine of the same place, just because.


----------



## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

This is basically where I actually learned to mountain bike, at the Belmont Plateau in Philly. If you fwd to the 5:00 mark, you'll get a better idea of the character of the place; it is the antithesis of flow. As Jochribs will probably tell you, as a beginner, I b¡tched a lot about the place. In addition to all of the logs, poison ivy is abundant in the place. Being that it's in a park in a city that was hit badly by urban blight and resultant white flight in the 60's, 70's, 80's & 90's, the woods became a dumping ground for the surrounding neighborhoods and the people who used the park. There is broken glass embedded in much of the trail surface and off piste, as well as broken concrete, building footings and industrial waste. If you crash, mother Belmont will [email protected] you up and as a beginner, I crashed a lot.

Belmont is about 4-5 miles closer to my house than the other, easier trails in the city and I don't own a car, so I tended to ride there most often. I hated it. I crashed a ton, at one point, I had poison ivy so bad that It spread to my central nervous system and had random breakouts everywhere. My skin on legs and arms was so mangled that my doctor, very concerned, asked if I was cutting myself. I kept riding there anyway, partly because the place p¡ssed me off so much, partly because I was determined to conquer it. I fell going over logs, I pushed up ascents that had 18" rock ledges in the middle of them; some times, it felt like I was doing more hike a bike than actually riding. I b¡tched a lot, cursed the logs, cursed the poison ivy and the sadistic [email protected]@rds who maintained the trails. I started doing the Thursday night underground race series and I sucked and usually raced to not be DFL. At some point, I began helping out on trail days, perhaps thinking that if I showed up and helped out, I eventually might be able to influence the trails there. Something else happened entirely, though: after about 18 months of riding at the Plateau, I made a trip to White Clay, DE with some friends, a well maintained, very groomed and flowing trail system about 40 minutes south of Philly. I was bored; I kind of thought the place sucked and this was a place that almost everyone thinks is really great. In fact, just about every place I went, I came away thinking, "well, that was okay, but it's not as cool as Belmont." In short, I had fallen in love with the Belmont Plateau.

Where I had once advocated for trail accessibility and b-lines, I now encourage people to persevere, to ride the hard sh¡t, to fall and go back again. Beginner trails have their place for sure, but it's important that they not happen at the expense of technical features. Give the newbs a taste with a little bit of trail for them and if they like it, they can learn to ride the harder stuff; ultimately, they'll be better for it. By building more experienced intermediate and advanced trails than green paths, not having b-lines and forcing inexperienced riders to either ride the gnar or hike bike through it, they'll develop more quickly and build a skill set that allows them to ride anywhere. If we only have beginner-focussed trails, ultimately, we'll only have beginner riders. Keep trails primitive and rustic, make them challenging and build them hard; the sport will be better for it.


----------



## Klainmeister (Apr 14, 2012)

We have this one sh!t climb in Santa Fe that has a nice big root that's fun to clear on the way up. This weekend I noticed someone hacked 90% of it away, thus removing the obstacle, but also creating a new mess of erosion since it's pretty much a drainage and the root was helping hold back soil. So friggen stupid. There's been a cohort of hikers going around our trail system and practically paving them by removing rocks, steps, and roots. WTF.


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

mikesee said:


> I was *wrong* in my initial assessment (aka guess) of the height of the drop off the boulder. In the initial post I estimated 2.5 feet, but verified this evening that it's actually just over 40". Which makes me wonder even more why someone built a ramp to get up there. Can't make an 18" up but ok with a 40" off?
> 
> Ooooooo-kaaaaaaaay...
> 
> Ping me if you wanna join in...


This is exactly what I thought when I watched your video. My guess is that whoever built the ramp probably could get up it but thought it would "flow" better with a smoother up.

As a builder who loves gnarly trails, I'm constantly struggling with this. Luckily, the area I build in is naturally very technical so it's nearly impossible to fully sanitize even if people wanted to do that. I can't build a B-Line for every gnarly feature on 10km of trail and in lots of places a B-Line is impossible anyway. I found an uptick in the development of cheater lines and the removal of rocks and stuff on the tough trails when I completed a relatively easier trail that connects to the more difficult stuff last year. Since I built that trail the amount of traffic in the area has increased quite a bit, which I do appreciate, BTW. It's not that the new trail is way easier than the other trails but it's enough easier that people who previously would have stayed away because of the gnarliness of the other trails are riding the new trail and may be expecting the other ones to be at the same level. I've had to block some cheater lines and in some cases I've actually just opened up an "official" ride around to at least keep it contained. Funny, there is a tech offshoot loop to the new trail that offers spectacular views of the city on one side and the hills and ponds on the other and I think I'm the only one who rides it. Apparently it's "too gnarly" but it's pretty much at the same level of difficulty as most of the other trails.

I'm working on a new loop off the new trail with several very steep rock rolls and I feel like I need to put B-Lines in or they will appear on their own. Part of me hates this but part of me feels that by at least putting official ones in, there will be an option for progression for less experienced riders. Luckily the terrain in this area lends itself to reasonable B-options. It just takes me longer to build.


----------



## DLd (Feb 15, 2005)

chazpat said:


> I think you're probably right for the most part but the trail the OP was talking about has signs that say it is a challenging trail and don't modify it. But, I used to design signage for a certain big orange box store that if you live in the US and parts of Canada/Mexico you've more than likely been in and learned that most people don't bother to read signs.


Oh yeah, I know. I ride that trail too. I have yet to clean a couple features and I'd be pissed if they got removed or sanitized before I nailed them. I wasn't justifying it, just explaining the type of user that might do it in most cases. It's not even a line on the main trail in this case.


----------



## habsfan (Jun 10, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> It's a sad time we are living in, it was an outrage when they did this.
> 
> They paved Fruitas Horsethief Drop-In.
> 
> ...


Damn, I rode that (or attempted to) for the first time in September - dumped about half way down, but tried it again - dumped again.

One of the hardest short sections I've ever ridden - nothing like that back in New England.

We have the same problem - like another mentioned, even the go-arounds that have go-arounds, now have go-arounds.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

It's a lot easier now that they paved it.


----------



## habsfan (Jun 10, 2011)

leeboh said:


> Maybe? I take pics for living but not when I'm out pedaling. 22 miles of marked loops yesterday. Some did 27 by going to the next trail area.


I rode there for the first time at the Wicked Ride - I would like to try again when the rocks and roots aren't slick as snot - I had no complaints with the hike-a-bike and did donate some blood, but enjoyed every minute of it.

If anyone tries to sanatize those trails, they should be de-balled.


----------



## gomer hardtale (Jul 2, 2008)

ive walked down that


----------



## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I was trying to remember if I replied to this thread, but it appears that I didn't. I am basically a newbie at riding anything like rocks and logs. I had a MTB back in '85, but I never rode on any trails that had anything like that on them. Fast forward, bought a new bike a year ago, and I've been trying to get used to the trails here near State College. Logs are the least of it, there are rocks everywhere. I've been trying to shed the inhibitions that decades of road riding will give you against riding into obstacles.

There are two trails that go up into the mountain behind my house. One of them is known as "hike a bike" by one of the better riders in the area, too many rocks. The other is ok, but for a beginner, there were so many rock gardens the first time through it that I was just about beside myself with frustration at having to get off and walk. I'm getting better at it, there are only about 5 sections where I have no clue how to ride them yet, but I get better every time. There are another 5 sections where I might or might not ride through depending on what happens.

The first time I rode that trail I was just not ever coming back. And wouldn't have minded someone bulldozing over it all. But now it's a challenge. There is only one section where I wouldn't mind them bulldozering it over, it's really hard to walk


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

habsfan said:


> One of the hardest short sections I've ever ridden - nothing like that back in New England.


So you've ridden everything in New England? Hmmm...:skep:

And you didn't find anything on your way down this (for one example) that you though was even remotely as tricky as that entrance?










How about Tower, Double Vision or Balljoint trails? I'm pretty sure I could get down HTB within a handful of tries (if I didn't ding myself up too bad), but those trails are just a few more examples of what I would consider almost an entirely different game.

Point being, if you think you've seen it all, you're about 100% likely to be wrong.


----------



## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Here's another reason to NOT handicap the trails.

E-bike prevention!

I just tested out a Specialized Turbo Levo, that was one size too small for me. First off, I attemped to wheelie the bike, expecting the electric assist to kick in and try to flip me over.
Nope.
I could NOT get the front end to come up more than an inch or two, despite multiple attempts. 
No WAY would I want to run an e-bike on technical stuff, where I need to be lofting the front end to clear logs or rocks! The bike is too darn heavy to get the front wheel off the ground!! 
Steep downhill stuff? Not with an extra 60# of bike to try to maneuver!


Technical = e-free!


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

DethWshBkr said:


> Technical = e-free!


I'm liking your thinkin'


----------



## habsfan (Jun 10, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> So you've ridden everything in New England? Hmmm...:skep:
> 
> Point being, if you think you've seen it all, you're about 100% likely to be wrong.


Point taken. :thumbsup:


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

habsfan said:


> Point taken. :thumbsup:




Highly recommend a visit to Lynn Woods if you haven't been. 
That should give you a fun sections for consideration too.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

slapheadmofo said:


> Highly recommend a visit to Lynn Woods if you haven't been.
> That should give you a fun sections for consideration too.


And be sure to bring your garden tools so you can dumb it down.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

DethWshBkr said:


> Here's another reason to NOT handicap the trails.
> 
> Technical = e-free!


I endorse this message.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Gigantic said:


> This is basically where I actually learned to mountain bike, at the Belmont Plateau in Philly. If you fwd to the 5:00 mark, you'll get a better idea of the character of the place; it is the antithesis of flow. As Jochribs will probably tell you, as a beginner, I b¡tched a lot about the place. In addition to all of the logs, poison ivy is abundant in the place. Being that it's in a park in a city that was hit badly by urban blight and resultant white flight in the 60's, 70's, 80's & 90's, the woods became a dumping ground for the surrounding neighborhoods and the people who used the park. There is broken glass embedded in much of the trail surface and off piste, as well as broken concrete, building footings and industrial waste. If you crash, mother Belmont will [email protected] you up and as a beginner, I crashed a lot.
> 
> Belmont is about 4-5 miles closer to my house than the other, easier trails in the city and I don't own a car, so I tended to ride there most often. I hated it. I crashed a ton, at one point, I had poison ivy so bad that It spread to my central nervous system and had random breakouts everywhere. My skin on legs and arms was so mangled that my doctor, very concerned, asked if I was cutting myself. I kept riding there anyway, partly because the place p¡ssed me off so much, partly because I was determined to conquer it. I fell going over logs, I pushed up ascents that had 18" rock ledges in the middle of them; some times, it felt like I was doing more hike a bike than actually riding. I b¡tched a lot, cursed the logs, cursed the poison ivy and the sadistic [email protected]@rds who maintained the trails. I started doing the Thursday night underground race series and I sucked and usually raced to not be DFL. At some point, I began helping out on trail days, perhaps thinking that if I showed up and helped out, I eventually might be able to influence the trails there. Something else happened entirely, though: after about 18 months of riding at the Plateau, I made a trip to White Clay, DE with some friends, a well maintained, very groomed and flowing trail system about 40 minutes south of Philly. I was bored; I kind of thought the place sucked and this was a place that almost everyone thinks is really great. In fact, just about every place I went, I came away thinking, "well, that was okay, but it's not as cool as Belmont." In short, I had fallen in love with the Belmont Plateau.
> 
> Where I had once advocated for trail accessibility and b-lines, I now encourage people to persevere, to ride the hard sh¡t, to fall and go back again. Beginner trails have their place for sure, but it's important that they not happen at the expense of technical features. Give the newbs a taste with a little bit of trail for them and if they like it, they can learn to ride the harder stuff; ultimately, they'll be better for it. By building more experienced intermediate and advanced trails than green paths, not having b-lines and forcing inexperienced riders to either ride the gnar or hike bike through it, they'll develop more quickly and build a skill set that allows them to ride anywhere. If we only have beginner-focussed trails, ultimately, we'll only have beginner riders. Keep trails primitive and rustic, make them challenging and build them hard; the sport will be better for it.


The beautiful thing about Belmont is that with the exception of the old fire roads that were the early (90's) race courses (collarbone creek, parachute hill etc.), and the newer stuff that is being linked in... the trail gnome(s) basically did that all by hand. No machines. Angled logs are left in place. Two foot logs are left in place. And the Thursday night races are full on race pace. Every week the course changes up. Chalk arrows and sticks show which way to go. Riding Belmont at anaerobic threshold will make a solid rider out of you. And that vid didn't even show all of it.

Between Belmont with its tight trails, and Wissahickon with the rocky tech, (the two are separated by a mile maybe at their closest points) we have it covered around here for hanging anywhere. Those places are the only thing I'll miss about this shithole of a city when I leave. Unfortunately sections of Wiss are getting the snip, snip, singing falsetto treatment, but there's still some stuff left.

Proud of these home trails of ours.

Good job representing Belmont Gigantic.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> And be sure to bring your garden tools so you can dumb it down.


Better hope you have a jackhammer in your shed.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

DLd said:


> A lot of hate for Strava. I think the people that are on the Strava leaderboards are precisely the people that are already super fast and skilled at riding it as is. They don't want it dumbed down. Trail sanitation just as described (building ramps, removing rocks from trails, etc.) has been going on for long before Strava. It's just from new riders getting into the sport that haven't learned the ethics/attitude of mountain bike culture yet. I think a lot of people see that and think no one could possibly ride it, so they make a ramp, or they think, this trail would be so much nicer if it wasn't so bumpy, but they don't realize that's what gives the trail flavor and challenge and makes it so rewarding to keep coming back to.
> 
> Quote Originally Posted by rockhopper97 View Post
> I have also had a-holes come out of nowhere and just about running me off the trail blowing by me... again, strava is evil
> ...


 I call it like I see it. They do want it dumbed down to go faster. The strava koms SHOW the short cuts taken on the trails. What is the point to cut out a corner that is 30 feet versus a strait line braid that is 20 feet long? With no tech to go around at all? I really don't care about how fast other riders go, I wouldn't be pedaling with them anyway. As long as they don't mess up the trails.


----------



## mdc (Apr 26, 2006)

The crew that I ride and build with started building A and B lines into most of the new trails we've built recently. This keeps the tougher lines intact, and also allows less skilled riders the opportunity to take a go around if needed. Worth thinking about...


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

leeboh said:


> I call it like I see it. They do want it dumbed down to go faster.


I'm not a fan of generalizations. I suppose I might be considered a "strava****" by some because I've got a bunch of KOM's but I never cut a trail or blazed by a hiker or another rider to achieve any of them.


----------



## mtbmatty (Dec 5, 2007)

Gigantic said:


> We desanitized a trail yesterday, moving a 1000# rock up a steep 60' embankment with a grip hoist and strong backs, to place it in the trail. We finished in the dark, will ride when the sun rises.
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BMKhokdgfG4/


 that's quite a nuggett. what was the goal of setting it in the trail?? were you guys trying to reclaim a singletrack or takeaway a cheater line??


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mdc said:


> The crew that I ride and build with started building A and B lines into most of the new trails we've built recently. This keeps the tougher lines intact, and also allows less skilled riders the opportunity to take a go around if needed. Worth thinking about...


I know quite a few trails built this way and think it's actually a good way to build for the most part. Personally, I prefer the harder line to be the main line and the go-around to be...well...a go-around rather than the other way around. 
It's one thing to design and create a trail in this manner and a whole different thing for someone to dumb down an existing trail or section though, specially when it involves pussifying a feature that's obviously intended to be challenging.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> I call it like I see it. They do want it dumbed down to go faster. The strava koms SHOW the short cuts taken on the trails. What is the point to cut out a corner that is 30 feet versus a strait line braid that is 20 feet long? With no tech to go around at all? I really don't care about how fast other riders go, I wouldn't be pedaling with them anyway. As long as they don't mess up the trails.


Agree. 
No coincidence on our local stuff how Strava segments appear at the exact same time we notice somebody has removed even the tiniest of challenges from the trail (seriously, you can't handle a couple 6" logs per mile?). Any time we find a Strava segment of any of our stuff has been posted, we flag it as unsafe and get it removed. 
:thumbsup:


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Agree.


My only issue is that when you say "they" you're talking to me and I'm not "them". A small but important detail, at least for the innocent.


----------



## comptiger5000 (Jun 11, 2007)

On the topic of "B" lines, I'd say they're a good idea for overly tough spots on trails that are typically used to access other trails. If it's a side trail that doesn't really lead to anywhere, there's less reason to include them as it's easier for a less capable rider to just not ride that section of trail in the first place.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

slapheadmofo said:


> Better hope you have a jackhammer in your shed.


Oh man, I crave smooth east coast boulders like those ^. Out west it's more of a jagged jig saw puzzle making your way through them.


----------



## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I would think that flagging a stravahole would be automatic if they were going off-trail. I haven't seen a lot of that around here, most of the rock gardens are huge and there is no b-line available. 

Having said that, I'm going to go get rid of some recently fallen logs. I talked to one of the inveterate trail builders and he had recently done some work on a trail I ride on a lot. He took out two of the logs that I could actually clear . That trail needed a lot of work though, I have a lot of trouble seeing where it goes most of the time.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Oh man, I crave smooth east coast boulders like those ^. Out west it's more of a jagged jig saw puzzle making your way through them.


We've got a nice mix of smooth and bony stuff. Love it all. :thumbsup:


----------



## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

I had to laugh the other night when I went to ride...somebody raked leaves off the trail for over a mile. It did make it easy to see the trail at night. They have about 6 more miles to go on that loop.


----------



## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

wow I am so happy my first (and pretty much only) priority of riding is fitness.... I don't have to stress about this drama...

And no, I am not a trail sanitizer... if I feel a feature is going to risk injury, I walk my bike... no big deal.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

habsfan said:


> Damn, I rode that (or attempted to) for the first time in September - dumped about half way down, but tried it again - dumped again.
> 
> One of the hardest short sections I've ever ridden - nothing like that back in New England.
> 
> We have the same problem - like another mentioned, even the go-arounds that have go-arounds, now have go-arounds.


 Me thinks you have not ridden very much in New England. Been to Beverly Commons? So many" I do not wish to die today sections" G Spot, Gloucester? As said Lynn Woods? Black ops and the salem pond trail, harold parker sf.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

mdc said:


> The crew that I ride and build with started building A and B lines into most of the new trails we've built recently. This keeps the tougher lines intact, and also allows less skilled riders the opportunity to take a go around if needed. Worth thinking about...


 I get that for a feature, a 3 ft rock roll, either up or down. Maybe a sharp turn with a wheel loft involved. But I'm seeing repeated short cuts with no tech features involved. Just straitening out the trail to avoid a turn. More often on our new builds, we keep the basic stuff for the main route with a side line for the optional tough stuff.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Better hope you have a jackhammer in your shed.


It looks like that trail could use a dose of TNT to make it accessible to more riders, draw more people into the sport, blah, blah, blah...


----------



## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

2old said:


> I had to laugh the other night when I went to ride...somebody raked leaves off the trail for over a mile. It did make it easy to see the trail at night. They have about 6 more miles to go on that loop.


We will have a trail maintenance day after Veterans Day to blow leaves off about 20 miles of single track. This is not sanitizing in the sense of dumbing-down the trail. If leaves lay under snow all winter & through the spring thaw, they are slick as snot & more difficult to remove the following season.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

burtronix said:


> We will have a trail maintenance day after Veterans Day to blow leaves off about 20 miles of single track. This is not sanitizing in the sense of dumbing-down the trail. If leaves lay under snow all winter & through the spring thaw, they are slick as snot & more difficult to remove the following season.


A long time ago, maybe more than 20 years, I was hauling the mail down a disused piece of trail in my then home of Michigan. I hit something under the leaves, got loose and shoved forward with most of my weight over the front wheel, and eventually crashed. No blood, no foul, or so I thought. A mile, maybe more, later I looked down and my Cateye computer head was missing. Went back to the scene of the stack to locate it, to no avail. Had to stop looking because it was almost dark and I still had ~30 minutes to ride to get out of the woods.

Went back the next morning with a gas powered leaf blower and blew clean a solid mile of trail, but never did find it. It was fall, the leaves on the ground were ~50% yellow, and the computer head was yellow. Kept riding that trail all through that winter and into spring, hoping that the yellow would jump out against the now brown earth. Nope -- never found it.

Always wondered what those that rode that trail after that day thought when coming onto a ~mile of it devoid of leaves...


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

^^ You blew the Cateye computer head right off the trail never to be seen again.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

RajunCajun44 said:


> wow I am so happy my first (and pretty much only) priority of riding is fitness.... I don't have to stress about this drama...
> 
> And no, I am not a trail sanitizer... if I feel a feature is going to risk injury, I walk my bike... no big deal.


Nope, no need to stress, you can just revel in your simpleminded smugness both at home and on the internet too.

(not really, but I wanted to make a point of showing you, by example, the way your words come across to someone that doesn't see things from exactly your perspective.)


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

burtronix said:


> We will have a trail maintenance day after Veterans Day to blow leaves off about 20 miles of single track. This is not sanitizing in the sense of dumbing-down the trail.


Yeah, we do a run over our trails every fall once the majority of leaves have come down. Helps keeps a nice narrow tread (and doesn't hurt traction and being able to find the trail!)


----------



## mdc (Apr 26, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yeah, we do a run over our trails every fall once the majority of leaves have come down. Helps keeps a nice narrow tread (and doesn't hurt traction and being able to find the trail!)


 I leaf blew a 5 mile loop yesterday- doesn't take long at all. If it was a heavily used area I probably wouldn't bother, but these trails get very little usage and would disappear otherwise. It also help them dry out faster since the leaves typical hold moisture longer...


----------



## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

mtbmatty said:


> that's quite a nuggett. what was the goal of setting it in the trail?? were you guys trying to reclaim a singletrack or takeaway a cheater line??


we cut in a new trail and that section ran through a natural rock garden formation of mica schist a few weeks ago. Initially, our thought was actually to sanitize it a bit and place a rock 4 feet to the left to make a marginally easier cheater line, as on that particular trail, the only way though, is through the rocks... as we examined it, we noted that the soil in that part would ultimately erode out, eventually making the entire section of trail unrideable. So, instead, we placed the rock there to hold the soil in place. It ended up making a b line that's slightly more challenging, at least visually, as there's a +40º slope immediately to the right of it that causes a fair amount of cognitive dissonance, especially if you're dropping in, instead of climbing.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

2old said:


> I had to laugh the other night when I went to ride...somebody raked leaves off the trail for over a mile. It did make it easy to see the trail at night. They have about 6 more miles to go on that loop.


That's routine maintenance on one our local trail systems...


----------



## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

jochribs said:


> The beautiful thing about Belmont is that with the exception of the old fire roads that were the early (90's) race courses (collarbone creek, parachute hill etc.), and the newer stuff that is being linked in... the trail gnome(s) basically did that all by hand. No machines. Angled logs are left in place. Two foot logs are left in place. And the Thursday night races are full on race pace. Every week the course changes up. Chalk arrows and sticks show which way to go. Riding Belmont at anaerobic threshold will make a solid rider out of you. And that vid didn't even show all of it.
> 
> Between Belmont with its tight trails, and Wissahickon with the rocky tech, (the two are separated by a mile maybe at their closest points) we have it covered around here for hanging anywhere. Those places are the only thing I'll miss about this shithole of a city when I leave. Unfortunately sections of Wiss are getting the snip, snip, singing falsetto treatment, but there's still some stuff left.
> 
> ...


Thanks!
Sadly, the success of the thursday night series and the fact that the mountain bike community and the trails through the park making the whole place safer, is kinda working against us. Parks and Rec and the Fairmount Parks Commission have noticed the side effects go what we've done and have decided that they want to open the park up for more use. To that end, they've proposed a "trolley line trail" though the park- you can see an example in the relatively straight, flat trail that bypasses the Edgeley Ultimate/Cricket fields and the Wild Mouse and Mighty Mouse sections. Ultimately, there will be more trails like that, forming a loop throughout the park, of easy, log-free, machine built single track. The head trail gnomes have had to fight tooth and nail not to lose the character of the original, rake and Mcleod cut trails that we've worked so hard to build. It's a two edge sword, though... by working with BPC and PP&R, they're giving us permission to expand our trail network and build more sustainable, yet technical trails. The struggle is, then, to not let them take the path of least resistance and eliminate existing trails that are so beloved by the people that have used them for the past 27 odd years.

I'll say this, for the flaws of our "shithole of a city," I've yet to find any place better from a cycling/MTB perspective. There are better cities and there are better trails, but I've yet to find a city that has the amenities, walkability and bikeabilty that Philly has, and the quick, easy access to truly excellent, technical and challenging mountain biking that we've got. I don't have or need a car and live in a neighborhood with some of the best restaurants on the east coast, and can leave my house and within a 22 minute ride, be in the middle of the woods on my bike. I've had job offers to work in other cities, but after weighing all the options, I couldn't find a good enough reason to leave. It's a dirty, trashy place, but it's pretty dang great.


----------



## baker (Jan 6, 2004)

mdc said:


> I leaf blew a 5 mile loop yesterday- doesn't take long at all. If it was a heavily used area I probably wouldn't bother, but these trails get very little usage and would disappear otherwise. It also help them dry out faster since the leaves typical hold moisture longer...


I love these kinds of posts. Living on the Front Range of Colorado, I would never haven even thought about something like this. I spend my spare time fighting back the cockroach of trees, Gambel Oak. Different techniques for different areas.


----------



## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

jochribs said:


> On another note Mike, they sure did a nice job fitting the stones. Could find some work as stonemason, lol!!


Sanitation Engineer?


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

dirtyjack said:


> Sanitation Engineer?


That's a politically correct way of stating the culprit.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

baker said:


> I love these kinds of posts. Living on the Front Range of Colorado, I would never haven even thought about something like this. I spend my spare time fighting back the cockroach of trees, Gambel Oak. Different techniques for different areas.


 Doesn't grow on east coast? Picture a 1.5 ft singletrack, smooth dirt, slightly cupped at the edges. Add 1,000's of acorns of red, white and sometimes pin oak. Then cover with leaves, wet or dry. Like riding on 'friggin marbles you can't see, just thinking of a hip flick gets you around the corners, good times. And sometimes the mostly maple and oak leaves get to be 4-6" deep, more with the rocks pockets and wind.


----------



## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

jochribs said:


> The beautiful thing about Belmont is that with the exception of the old fire roads that were the early (90's) race courses (collarbone creek, parachute hill etc.), and the newer stuff that is being linked in... the trail gnome(s) basically did that all by hand. No machines. Angled logs are left in place. Two foot logs are left in place. And the Thursday night races are full on race pace. Every week the course changes up. Chalk arrows and sticks show which way to go. Riding Belmont at anaerobic threshold will make a solid rider out of you. And that vid didn't even show all of it.
> 
> Between Belmont with its tight trails, and Wissahickon with the rocky tech, (the two are separated by a mile maybe at their closest points) we have it covered around here for hanging anywhere. Those places are the only thing I'll miss about this shithole of a city when I leave. Unfortunately sections of Wiss are getting the snip, snip, singing falsetto treatment, but there's still some stuff left.
> 
> ...


Have you had a chance to ride the new PSK trail by the Pumptrack? DanMer and I flagged it about a year ago and we've gotten it more or less completed last sunday. It's kind of the opposite of the rest of the trails in the park (that dirty word, "flow") but there's a few surprises in the natural terrain that we couldn't ignore and Chuck U went above and beyond cutting the trail in with the SK500. The rock garden night be my favorite thing in the whole park.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

DethWshBkr said:


> Here's another reason to NOT handicap the trails.
> 
> E-bike prevention!
> 
> Technical = e-free!


I love this post. Threadwinner for me.


----------



## dunleavy (Aug 21, 2015)

Brodino said:


> No, I am not a member of RAMBO but I ride Big Creek a few times every month so I am familiar with the trail and I am sure this is not RAMBO doing it. When RAMBO redesigns the trail, it is very obvious and they are great at posting signage or sending out notifications if you are subscribed to their mailing list. These are riders just taking short cuts and ruining an otherwise great urban trail..


I ride there a lot as well. It seems like this really got bad over the last few months. I don't know if the races that were recently held started it or what, but it has definitely gotten worse. There are some other places, like on Skillet, where you can branch off for a totally different line (like the jumps that run alongside the road) - I'll hit those, but they are obviously built by RAMBO.

I haven't ridden South Loop in a couple of months, but I'd be willing to bet the temporary closure of Van Michael had something to do with it, pushing a lot of riders who usually avoid SL onto it.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Talk about over sanitizing. I just went into a Starbucks restroom.


----------



## mtbmatty (Dec 5, 2007)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Talk about over sanitizing. I just went into a Starbucks restroom.


 i respectfully disagree, i don't think this is possible. have you seen some of the vile things that some sub-humans do in public restrooms


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yeah, we do a run over our trails every fall once the majority of leaves have come down. Helps keeps a nice narrow tread (and doesn't hurt traction and being able to find the trail!)





mdc said:


> I leaf blew a 5 mile loop yesterday- doesn't take long at all. If it was a heavily used area I probably wouldn't bother, but these trails get very little usage and would disappear otherwise. It also help them dry out faster since the leaves typical hold moisture longer...





Crankout said:


> That's routine maintenance on one our local trail systems...


This is totally foreign to me from a trail maintenance perspective. Our forest is almost 100% evergreen so we rarely see any deciduous leaves on the tread. I have ridden leaf covered trails in the fall in Ontario and Quebec in the Fall so I do recognize the hazards they create, though.


----------



## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

Gigantic said:


> ... It's a dirty, trashy place, but it's pretty dang great.


Now that is love for one's city. 

On another note I have enjoyed reading your updates on the trails in Philly. Good writing and good content. :thumbsup:


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

L. Ron Hoover said:


> This is totally foreign to me from a trail maintenance perspective. Our forest is almost 100% evergreen so we rarely see any deciduous leaves on the tread. I have ridden leaf covered trails in the fall in Ontario and Quebec in the Fall so I do recognize the hazards they create, though.


They are fun as hell to slide around on, just sucks when you constantly lose the trail.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Sanitation gone too far. Let's keep the process simple...


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Gigantic said:


> Have you had a chance to ride the new PSK trail by the Pumptrack? DanMer and I flagged it about a year ago and we've gotten it more or less completed last sunday. It's kind of the opposite of the rest of the trails in the park (that dirty word, "flow") but there's a few surprises in the natural terrain that we couldn't ignore and Chuck U went above and beyond cutting the trail in with the SK500. The rock garden night be my favorite thing in the whole park.


I haven't been on the newest section yet. I rode the first one...on my 20" while I was at the pumptrack. Saw some XC guys going in and spun up my 30x11 and little wheels to quietly catch them and sit on their wheels for a bit. Pretty much up to the little roller/double. I then turned around and rode it back and forth a few times with my son. He was on his little Cult 16. It was 'okay'. But it was also somewhat the antithesis of what I like to ride, and apparently my son too. I could absolutely rip it. If that sort of trail wasn't taking over everything, I'd like it a lot more.

I'll have to go check out the newest section. Maybe later today.


----------



## jfudge02 (Mar 24, 2016)

It's really hard to see what's going with the trail in your photos.. it looks like that section ends with a bunch of impassible boulders, a cliffedge, or a wall depending on which way you go. 

Still, if what your describing is an 18 inch ledge you need to get up after a switchback in which you have no speed, to me that's not very fun. Seems like unnecessary work, even if you can do it. On a climb? Ugh. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I'd always choose jump over bump


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

jfudge02 said:


> It's really hard to see what's going with the trail in your photos.. it looks like that section ends with a bunch of impassible boulders, a cliffedge, or a wall depending on which way you go.
> 
> Still, if what your describing is an 18 inch ledge you need to get up after a switchback in which you have no speed, to me that's not very fun. Seems like unnecessary work, even if you can do it. On a climb? Ugh. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I'd always choose jump over bump


Fortunately there are dozens of miles of uncreative and easy trail nearby, so you don't have to muss up your hair riding things that others think of as "fun".


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jfudge02 said:


> unnecessary work


Isn't this the major reason behind riding a bicycle off road in the first place?

Don't like to do 'unnecessary work'? Stick to the couch.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

mtbmatty said:


> i respectfully disagree, i don't think this is possible. have you seen some of the vile things that some sub-humans do in public restrooms


Obviously you've never visited a Starbucks restroom. Cleanest restrooms by far. I used to travel long distances for work and learned pretty quick how much cleaner they are than most other public restrooms. I would drive miles out of my way just to visit one when nature called. They get cleaned 4 times a day. Unlike most public ones that get hit once a week.


----------



## jfudge02 (Mar 24, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> Isn't this the major reason behind riding a bicycle off road in the first place?
> 
> Don't like to do 'unnecessary work'? Stick to the couch.


Like I said, different strokes. You sound like a roadie making that comment. I ride up solely for the purpose of riding down. ( so ya I probably wouldn't be seen on a trail where I can't get serious speed


----------



## jfudge02 (Mar 24, 2016)

I'm not advocating making trails easier or dumber so that everyone can do them-- I'm just saying there are probably better spots to complain about, like the one dirtjunkie shared


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

jfudge02 said:


> I'm not advocating making trails easier or dumber so that everyone can do them-- I'm just saying there are probably better spots to complain about, like the one dirtjunkie shared


I beg to differ. Not taking anything away from DJ's displeasure in how that was done on his respective trails, that at least has the probable defense that it was done to stem erosion that was getting pretty bad.

The stack of rocks on Mikesee's post weren't stemming anything, save for the stackers lack of skill. Not having those rocks there wasn't going to cause water to erode the trail and sendiment a trout stream somewhere down hill. The trail was the way it was and had been, and someone decided to come along and build a ramp.

At first view of Mikes pictures in his OP, It was hard to tell where the line was supposed to go, and how high the rock (and subsequent stack) was. After seeing his post where he sessions the rock a few times, it is much easier of a hop than I had imagined (no offense meant Mike), and I even moreso understand why he was so pissed off the someone built that stupid friggin stack, instead of getting the chops to learn to do it as it was.

As Mike said, there are plenty of other trails that you can ride that are easier. More and more as the days pass.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

jfudge02 said:


> slapheadmofo said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't this the major reason behind riding a bicycle off road in the first place?
> ...


How does Slap sound like a roadie in making that comment? And as if that is a negative thing in the first place?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jfudge02 said:


> Like I said, different strokes. You sound like a roadie making that comment. I ride up solely for the purpose of riding down. ( so ya I probably wouldn't be seen on a trail where I can't get serious speed


LOL at a guy who thinks a little ledge up like that is too hard calling someone else a roadie. Mountain bikers with actual skills don't need their trails dumbed down so the can get 'serious speed'.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jochribs said:


> How does Slap sound like a roadie in making that comment? And as if that is a negative thing in the first place?


I'm assuming he's going to 'splain me DHing now.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

you got some 'splaining to do!!


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Lololololol anybody have a napkin? I spilled coffee all over the place.


----------



## jfudge02 (Mar 24, 2016)

jochribs said:


> I beg to differ. Not taking anythin More and more as the days pass.


I can understand that. I haven't seen his other posts and the way he described i had to question how relevant of a suspension test such a situation can produce. I wish I'd seen more of his pics before commenting, and in any case it's not cool to go editing trails as one sees fit.

On a side note, such an obstacle as he described in the op wouldn't stop me I'm just saying it would probably annoy a lot of people. Id love to ride with some of the people in here that mistook my non-surprised reaction of the general public as some sort of proof of inferiority. It could have been done by hikers or someone with a horse. You don't know. 
Talk about lonely people.


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I think the horse did it.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

^You hacked up my quote pretty good there. (Edit...Sorry, not you C2L. I was late on posting)

And yeah, there is no way that hikers or horse folk would build something like that. Have you watched Mikesee's vid on him doing repeats on the hop up after he removed the stack? It's on page 2 or 3. 

You are missing the point that most of the posters in this thread are unified on. This sort of need for things to be different because, like you just even allude to yourself, things are annoying, is reaching epidemic proportions. 

If it's annoying, turn your steed around, and find another trail that suits you. At the present state of affairs, there is positively no shortage of much more simple and redundant trails to roll along that have subtle grade changes, ramps over manufactured tech (if there is any tech), and a system of grade changes and reallocated soil tread surface that will feel the same no matter what trail setting you are on. Don't complain to land managers, don't take it upon yourself to alter or change whatever is annoying you. 

It's kind of like the Clone Troopers my son is into at the moment. It's the clone trails. Only thing that changes from one to the other is the background. 

And we aren't lonely. We are simply sick and effing tired of having what our sport once was marginalized and made redundant and predictable for the guised sake of all inclusiveness...in actuality for the sake of making money.


----------



## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Cleared2land said:


> I think the horse did it.


i think you're on to somethin' there.
the horse was nun too happy 'bout jumpin' off the other side w/ a dumass on his back, so he built the trail so the human could jump off the rock.

by himself


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Reminds me of the old Bill Cosby, Lone Ranger/Keemosabe/Tanto skit. Pretty damned funny.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

The part about 'Silver' the horse starts at 1:59


----------



## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

jochribs said:


> I beg to differ. Not taking anything away from DJ's displeasure in how that was done on his respective trails, that at least has the probable defense that it was done to stem erosion that was getting pretty bad.
> 
> The stack of rocks on Mikesee's post weren't stemming anything, save for the stackers lack of skill. Not having those rocks there wasn't going to cause water to erode the trail and sendiment a trout stream somewhere down hill. The trail was the way it was and had been, and someone decided to come along and build a ramp.
> 
> ...


The sanitization in question reminds me of a similar modification commonly done to trails back East. We took pride in getting over trees that had fallen across the trail during weather events. Sometimes said tree was deemed worthy of removal (chainsaw) when the trail was now basically impassible. Other times, it was simply limbed & most could have a go at a successful "log-over". Every now & then a trail user would make the decision on behalf of the riding community, "it was now simply impossible to clear". They would then proceed to pile a stack of kindling on either side of the Log-Over, making it "ride-able"! I cannot tell you how many times I stopped to "amend" their modification.


----------



## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

i'd rather move sticks and stones somebody added than look at dying trees due to the fact they chopped out main roots on ups and downs. this happened 2 yrs ago and the culprit was caught, he claimed he didn't know any better. STFU, are you serious? thing was that really got me, he was coming from 2.5hrs away to kill trees and to make "flow"


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

jochribs said:


> The part about 'Silver' the horse starts at 1:59


Used to listen to that album (vinyl!) in our living room, laying on brown shag carpet next to the console stereo...


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I'm glad I stumbled across this thread, some decent reading. 

A couple months ago my son and I were riding the South Rim of Gooseberry Mesa. We came across red circles that had recently been painted around the white dots which mark the trail. I though it was odd as I do work for the local BLM field office and I figured I'd have heard about some new types of trail markings. As my son and I reached an overlook, we ran into three riders from Vegas who were up for the weekend to ride our trails. We chatted for a bit and they rode off. My son quickly pointed out that one of the riders had a red spray paint can in his water bottle holder. Surprised and pissed, we took off after them and quickly caught up. I confronted them and asked what was up. Their excuse was that they didn't want to get lost and so they were marking their route back, if needed. They said they'd try not to do it so much anymore. I told them, no, they wouldn't do it at all anymore. Other things have transpired since to make it right that I won't get into. My point is that so many people are all about themselves. As long as they are ok, happy and feel justified, they are going to alter a trail. Not cool.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Silentfoe said:


> I'm glad I stumbled across this thread, some decent reading.
> 
> A couple months ago my son and I were riding the South Rim of Gooseberry Mesa. We came across red circles that had recently been painted around the white dots which mark the trail. I though it was odd as I do work for the local BLM field office and I figured I'd have heard about some new types of trail markings. As my son and I reached an overlook, we ran into three riders from Vegas who were up for the weekend to ride our trails. We chatted for a bit and they rode off. My son quickly pointed out that one of the riders had a red spray paint can in his water bottle holder. Surprised and pissed, we took off after them and quickly caught up. I confronted them and asked what was up. Their excuse was that they didn't want to get lost and so they were marking their route back, if needed. They said they'd try not to do it so much anymore. I told them, no, they wouldn't do it at all anymore. Other things have transpired since to make it right that I won't get into. My point is that so many people are all about themselves. As long as they are ok, happy and feel justified, they are going to alter a trail. Not cool.


I would hope that these guys are punished to the full extent of the law. Please tell me that they are being held accountable for such selfish childish actions.


----------



## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

This takes the all time cake for me . . . I've _never_ seen anything like this:

(link, cuz pic ain't loading:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BM4rZr_g5zY/
)


----------



## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

Holy sh!t that's horrible!


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

007 said:


> This takes the all time cake for me . . . I've _never_ seen anything like this:
> 
> (link, cuz pic ain't loading:
> 
> ...


Unbelievable! I'd be out there under the cover of darkness with a pick axe returning it back to its former glory.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Wow, that's sad.

Is that actual concrete? If it is, it looks like it won't be long before it's all broken up and a real mess that whoever did that, probably won't want to ride.


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Unbelievable. A loaded shopping cart can now enjoy those trails. I hope it full of quality, hand crafted brews.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

30 minutes with a sledgehammer and you could make the trail natural again, albeit without the cool rocks.


----------



## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

It looks like slag sand, but whatever it is, it's bullsh!t.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

fishwrinkle said:


> It looks like slag sand, but whatever it is, it's bullsh!t.


Make up your mind. Is it slag sand or bullsh!t? Or a mixture of both?


----------



## 6thElement (Jul 17, 2006)

Is this referring to the GJ changes in question?

Lunch Loop Trail Maintenance Causes Controversy


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

6thElement said:


> Is this referring to the GJ changes in question?
> 
> Lunch Loop Trail Maintenance Causes Controversy


Nope, different changes on a different set of trails, although very close by.

I find it fascinating that the BLM and WCCC are trying to spin *those* changes as responses to minimize erosion.

That's ridiculous. Disingenuous. Outright emperor's-new-clothes lying.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

mikesee said:


> Nope, different changes on a different set of trails, although very close by.
> 
> I find it fascinating that the BLM and WCCC are trying to spin *those* changes as responses to minimize erosion.
> 
> That's ridiculous. Disingenuous. Outright emperor's-new-clothes lying.


But that's how you win the minds of the public, and convince and assure that you 'mean good'. It's the way things are done these days...Say whatever you need to get what you want...If it's a lie, so be it.

(Dirt Junky...that's not what I believe myself^...so just in case you're skimming again, remember I'm mocking the BS artists, lol!!)


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

mikesee said:


> Used to listen to that album (vinyl!) in our living room, laying on brown shag carpet next to the console stereo...


This is awesome Mike! There's always a couple of the old CD's in the car for snowboard and biking trips. My 8 year old son loves em!


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

An example of Sanitation From Afar...


----------



## JKA (Jul 26, 2006)

This is what I use for trail maintenance...makes em nice and smooth.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I'm thinking ^ story telling.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

One Pivot said:


> I must be in the tiny minority here...
> 
> Im glad theres bypasses. Im all for having an easy bypass route. Leave the hard stuff there, but whenever possible, trail planning should include a bypass.
> 
> ...


In general, I don't disagree with what you've written. As a community our numbers have reached a certain critical mass where we have to be inclusive of many ability levels.

But that's not what was happening in this case. The main trail avoids this feature entirely -- if you're new to the area you'd go right by it without ever even knowing it was there. You have to divert off of the main trail to ride it -- which sort of comes back to your main point. But someone even took the time to sanitize _that_, and I had a problem with that.

Years ago there was a small, nameless and spineless local group that would sabotage B-lines by throwing sticks or rocks or logs in the landings, or by removing a critical rock from steep rollers. People got hurt because of these bozos. They flamed out at some point, but may have resurrected themselves as sanitizers.


----------



## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

:madman:


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Heh! This gave me a good chuckle.^^ The limb in the middle of the trails tread area is the perfect height for a little hop right over, yet on the side, where it will only serve to widen the trail, and is yet rollable even with out suspension, is where the helper rock gets placed...Gotta laugh sometimes. 

Maybe best to just get that whole thing out of there so the trail doesn't widen?


----------



## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

jeffw-13 said:


> :madman:
> 
> View attachment 1132630


That is so freakin' funny. A little further back are the skid marks where they locked up in horror.


----------



## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> It's a sad time we are living in, it was an outrage when they did this.
> 
> They paved Fruitas Horsethief Drop-In.
> 
> ...


This isn't real is it? Please tell me it's shopped. I rode it without dabbing 19 years ago at the first MTBR Fruita Gathering. Just wow...


----------



## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Cheater lines happen here too. Before and after. My line is the root. We also have the high school team straightening out switchbacks. The coach has been notified and I hear a trail maint day is upcomming for the team.


----------



## DLd (Feb 15, 2005)

Vader said:


> This isn't real is it? Please tell me it's shopped. I rode it without dabbing 19 years ago at the first MTBR Fruita Gathering. Just wow...


No, it's not real. If anything it's gotten more difficult with erosion.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Vader said:


> This isn't real is it? Please tell me it's shopped. I rode it without dabbing 19 years ago at the first MTBR Fruita Gathering. Just wow...


It's real. It's the times we live in.

From this:








To this:


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> It's real. It's the times we live in.
> 
> From this:
> View attachment 1132786
> ...


It's been very much improved. I can descend it without spilling my beer and Cheetos now.

I can fully get behind this sort of trail sanitation.


----------



## comptiger5000 (Jun 11, 2007)

jochribs said:


> Heh! This gave me a good chuckle.^^ The limb in the middle of the trails tread area is the perfect height for a little hop right over, yet on the side, where it will only serve to widen the trail, and is yet rollable even with out suspension, is where the helper rock gets placed...Gotta laugh sometimes.
> 
> Maybe best to just get that whole thing out of there so the trail doesn't widen?


To me, helper rock where it is makes sense. Makes the easy line easier without screwing up the harder line for those who want to take it.


----------



## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Curveball said:


> It's been very much improved. I can descend it without spilling my beer and Cheetos now.


That outcropping on the right might be a nice spot for a Starbucks / e-bike charging station.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

JACKL said:


> That outcropping on the right might be a nice spot for a Starbucks / e-bike charging station.


Please don't give them any more ideas. Enough is enough, any more luxurious changes and it's going to get way too over crowded.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

JACKL said:


> That outcropping on the right might be a nice spot for a Starbucks / e-bike charging station.


Better yet, a 7-Eleven so that you can get beer and hot dogs. Or even a Slurpee for a nice cool treat in the desert heat.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Please don't give them any more ideas. Enough is enough, any more luxurious changes and it's going to get way too over crowded.


I don't think that a spa at the top and a doughnut shop at the bottom would add too much crowding.


----------

