# Why can't we have light e-mtb with EP8 like this in USA?



## Loll (May 2, 2006)

https://ebike-mtb.com/en/new-rotwild-r-x375-2021/

This Rotwild has an EP8, with full 85 Nm and 375 Wh battery. Isn't this full e-bike power, just with a smaller battery? The bike is 18.2kg = 40 pounds.

The thing with the Levo SL is that it is a smaller power motor. Yes, is fine, but if Rotwild can create a full power one weighting about the same, why have a compromise? Too bad Rotwild isn't sold in the USA.

While I can't speak for everyone, at least for me, the desirable ebike I want is a light e-bike that can ride closer to a real bike, with the motor of a regular e-bike. Am I the only one that wants this?


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

You can get the Turbo Levo S-Works to about 41-42 lbs (ready to ride with pedals) if you swap out the 700wh battery for a 500wh battery as well as some other tweaks, like changing out grips and eliminating the SWAT tool. That's pretty close.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

My e bike is 52 lbs, 180 front and rear travel, and the weight doesn't bother me at all.

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## Loll (May 2, 2006)

Fellas, all good points.

If I put an ebike with EP8 and 40 pounds standard build next to a 50 pounder with an EP8 also, which would we choose?


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Cheap, strong, light, pick two.

Rather not compromise with strength, if that includes durability, longevity, capability, reliability, versatility, etc.

Where does the weight come from anyways? 3 kg motor and another 3 kg from a 504 wh battery. How much do you add for the display, controls, sensors and frame mounting reinforcement? 7.5 kg in total on top of a 13.5 kg (30 lb) bike puts a bike at 21 kg (46.3 lbs). Tougher tires, wheels, brakes, fork...

What about the cost? What cost does a quality MTB-optimized motor and battery add on to a typical bike? $1750?

Just saying, try to be more realistic. Take a 6600 price point bike (cheaper bikes add 4+ lbs to the bike) and give it the emtb treatment and you price yourself out of being able to afford one. Perhaps consider the Forestal Siryon. Makes me wonder if the emtb tariff exclusion that was put into effect Sept last year has been renewed for this year. It'd tack on another 25%... the tariff has already raised prices considerably, despite the tariff exclusion being retroactive on back-paid taxes (which I presume brands just pocketed).


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## JillRide45 (Dec 11, 2015)

Loll said:


> https://ebike-mtb.com/en/new-rotwild-r-x375-2021/
> 
> This Rotwild has an EP8, with full 85 Nm and 375 Wh battery. Isn't this full e-bike power, just with a smaller battery? The bike is 18.2kg = 40 pounds.
> 
> ...


The Levo SL smaller battery is a perfect match for the lower torque motor. From what I have seen, range is pretty close to the 700watt Levo. A big powerful motor with a small battery is not going to get most riders very far.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Loll said:


> Fellas, all good points.
> 
> If I put an ebike with EP8 and 40 pounds standard build next to a 50 pounder with an EP8 also, which would we choose?


Of course, lighter would always be better if it's also cheaper (relatively) and stronger (Standard Motor versus SL motor). But as Varaxis said above; "Cheap, strong, light, pick two." So, given that we can't always have it all, I guess it depends upon our goals and our budget.

That "standard build" you posted is 40 lbs. But it also comes with very small battery for its motor, tires that are a little too light for its mission and a rear rotor that is too small, in my opinion. It's also $13500 dollars.

Of course, if money is no object and you live in the U.S., you can certainly get an S-Works Levo down to 40 lbs (if you you did put the same sort of stuff 500wh battery, light tubeless tires, lighter rotor, light grips, no SWAT tool, lighter stem). So if you're looking for a Strong motor and a light bike, the Levo S-Works can deliver for you right now, in the USA, at about the same price point. The bike you're pining for indeed exists... Of course, only if you're willing to use a Brose motor instead of a Shimano motor.

I have a Levo "Expert" model that, with swapping out some parts, weighed in a 44lbs ready to ride (including pedals, bottle holder and SWAT tool). I feel that's a pretty good balance of light weight with a "relatively" less expensive price point. It created the right balance of "light, strong, cheap" for me.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Imagine all the weight you have to carry around to be prepared for when your lightweight ebike breaks down too. I know some people seem to ignore weight on the rider, carried in their pack, but this burden definitely takes a toll.

Yikes, 749 euros for a second 350 Wh battery. Doesn't sound cool having to carry that around, nor does it sound cool to be tethered to a point where you can store and swap a battery mid-ride. Didn't think it was necessary to state the obvious that the stronger motor would go through the small battery quite quickly.

Think about what you want to do on the bike too. If I wanted a lightweight bike to flick/throw around, I wouldn't choose an ebike. I have a classic MTB for that. I choose my ebike for adventuring, having fun on climbs, and for general "sport utility" things (car replacement).

P.S. lithium batteries have a longer life cycle if you discharge them at a shallower rate repeatedly. Storing batteries at full charge isn't healthy either. Batteries expand and contract as they're charged and discharge, and also due to temp. This is the reason behind battery fatigue and loss of range. This is an extra advantage to having a single big battery over two half size ones.


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## Whiterabbitt (May 16, 2020)

Levo SL is PLENTY of power, IMO.


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

Whiterabbitt said:


> Levo SL is PLENTY of power, IMO.


Agreed...if I can do a 4 hr ride at 10k'+ elevation with 3500' elevation gain, and still have 65% battery left, then I'd say yes, it's enough!

I have a 3 hr. butt, so any more would just not be comfy.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Varaxis said:


> Imagine all the weight you have to carry around to be prepared for when your lightweight ebike breaks down too.


? I don't carry more than I used to carry when I rode all of my previous non E-bikes. It also rarely breaks down. Have broken 2 chains, was able to do a trailside repair. No issues since I've gone w/a KMC E-bike specific 12 spd chain.



Varaxis said:


> Didn't think it was necessary to state the obvious that the stronger motor would go through the small battery quite quickly.





JillRide45 said:


> A big powerful motor with a small battery is not going to get most riders very far.


Yes, 375 is not that useful with a more powerful motor unless you dial the power back significantly.

My Levo SL is at 360wh at 39 pounds and dwarfs the Rotwild's battery when range extender added. 41 pounds w/480wh battery, tubeless, pedals, swat tool, Pike, DPX2 and 2.6 tires.

Strong and light. Definitely not cheap.



Simplemind said:


> Agreed...if I can do a 4 hr ride at 10k'+ elevation with 3500' elevation gain, and still have 65% battery left, then I'd say yes, it's enough!
> 
> I have a 3 hr. butt, so any more would just not be comfy.


Did this ride w/range extender. 33% battery left.























Notice how the heart rate flattens out on the second ascent. That climb was all road in turbo mode set at 65% support, 100% peak power. The first ascent was all singletrack, using eco and trail.
Both descents singletrack.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Loll said:


> Fellas, all good points.
> 
> If I put an ebike with EP8 and 40 pounds standard build next to a 50 pounder with an EP8 also, which would we choose?


Well, the 40 pounder would likely have lightweight parts and shorter travel, for more of an XC setup, and the 50 pounder would be more of an all-mountain/enduro setup. Depends more on what you ride and how much you like breaking stuff.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Francois built up a weight weenie Levo and one guy who claimed to have ridden it said they wouldn't ride it in that configuration again. XD


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Yeah, if I want a 32# (or less) bike, it won't have a motor. 41# w/ a 480wh battery capacity that essentially rides just like my 31# Hightower 2 works for me. Night and day difference from the 52# Levo I had before.


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## grrrah (Mar 26, 2004)

Varaxis said:


> Francois built up a weight weenie Levo and one guy who claimed to have ridden it said they wouldn't ride it in that configuration again. XD


also, with 2 batteries, life was significantly shorter than one battery for a regular Levo and and a Decoy on the same ride.


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## mtbrdan (Jun 1, 2004)

Varaxis said:


> Francois built up a weight weenie Levo and one guy who claimed to have ridden it said they wouldn't ride it in that configuration again. XD


True story....but I bought one anyway and love it.










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## grrrah (Mar 26, 2004)

I believe the Focus Jam2 9.9 does exactly what the OP is asking for.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

All things being equal or similar, I'd always take the significantly lighter bike if given the choice. Lighter bikes handle better. I prefer my Yeti in every situation- especially fast downhills and technical sections. So if one had a motor and battery that weighed 5 lbs less, I'd take that.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Flyer said:


> All things being equal or similar, I'd always take the significantly lighter bike if given the choice. Lighter bikes handle better. I prefer my Yeti in every situation- especially fast downhills and technical sections. So if one had a motor and battery that weighed 5 lbs less, I'd take that.


Except it's not that simple with eMTBs. The battery is typically the biggest incremental source of weight, and if you have a battery that weighs zero, your range = zero and the amount of sustained boost = zero.

I like the way the Levo SL has approached it, with a mid-sized battery (that is also removable to use the bike like a regular bike), combined with a water-bottle style range extender. Best of both worlds.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Agreed, which is why I made the first comment. I like the Levo SL idea too but slowly, the weight of the motors and batteries will come down. My point was that I have never found a case where added weight is an advantage, in my 20+ years of mountain biking...ever. Same with dirt biking...lighter motos always handle better in every situation. That is why manufacturers have kept trying to shave grams.

I love my Shuttle but if the Levo gets under 35 lbs, I'll upgrade even for less power. I rarely use the Boost setting anyway. It makes no sense for the riding I do. That is probably the practical difference between the two types of bikes and a rider like me would be quite happy with the Levo SL.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

Loll said:


> https://ebike-mtb.com/en/new-rotwild-r-x375-2021/ Am I the only one that wants this?


nice bike, 20 mile range , lol


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

20-mile range? Oh man, that is a total deal-breaker. Not a chance I'd be remotely interested, if that is true.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Flyer said:


> Agreed, which is why I made the first comment. I like the Levo SL idea too but slowly, the weight of the motors and batteries will come down. My point was that I have never found a case where added weight is an advantage, in my 20+ years of mountain biking...ever. Same with dirt biking...lighter motos always handle better in every situation. That is why manufacturers have kept trying to shave grams.
> 
> I love my Shuttle but if the Levo gets under 35 lbs, I'll upgrade even for less power. I rarely use the Boost setting anyway. It makes no sense for the riding I do. That is probably the practical difference between the two types of bikes and a rider like me would be quite happy with the Levo SL.


Agree, and agree! And also a Shuttle rider. I would looooove a Shuttle with a smaller battery, 350W motor, and a battery extender capability. I pinged Chris at Pivot about any plans for a next gen Shuttle and there's nothing on the near term horizon.

On the dirt bike front, there's are some good weight savings and some bad ones. Stuff like lithium batteries and a different pipe/silencer/exhaust make sense, but a couple friends tried to go weight weenie on things like bash guards and tires and paid for it in eastern PA rocks!


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Yeah, that Shuttle "Race" or Lite would be a killer bike. I'd be in! A 35 lbs bike like that would be amazing though the SL does come pretty close at 38-40. I really really like that trend since I'm not a basher or DH type of rider. BTW, I have an extra battery for my Pivot. It can be carried in a pack (though makes it heavy with 3L of water). Still, I'd like to plan a 60-70 mile ride with 8K+ of climbing and just spend all day in the mountains once of twice this Fall.

When I talk abut motos becoming lighter, I definitely mean by the manufacturers. Things like frame, body, heavy components...all those have been shaved down well over the years Weight weenies do little but make them fragile. I think that is okay for smooth dirt and road bikes but not my thing either way.

I'm keeping an eye on developments. I hope we are rewarded in a couple of years.



RickBullottaPA said:


> Agree, and agree! And also a Shuttle rider. I would looooove a Shuttle with a smaller battery, 350W motor, and a battery extender capability. I pinged Chris at Pivot about any plans for a next gen Shuttle and there's nothing on the near term horizon.
> 
> On the dirt bike front, there's are some good weight savings and some bad ones. Stuff like lithium batteries and a different pipe/silencer/exhaust make sense, but a couple friends tried to go weight weenie on things like bash guards and tires and paid for it in eastern PA rocks!


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Flyer said:


> All things being equal or similar, I'd always take the significantly lighter bike if given the choice. Lighter bikes handle better. I prefer my Yeti in every situation- especially fast downhills and technical sections. So if one had a motor and battery that weighed 5 lbs less, I'd take that.


I don't like this kind of argument. I feel that it's too unrealistic and dumbs down the discussion. Also seems pointless, as all it does is tell the world about you.

I'll play along though. Lets say there was some hypothetical tech that could fit 2x the charge into a lithium battery. Would you still stick to your choice?

A) the bike with a battery pack that weighs 4 lbs instead of 7, but has the same form factor and same capacity and cycle lifetime. Has the option of a form factor that is 35% shorter than a normal battery pack (but just as long, to fit in the same battery docks).

A2) the bike with a battery pack that weighs 2.5 lbs instead of 7, but has half the capacity and a form factor that is 50% as tall as the original tech battery. Has no ability to be "stacked" officially to create a 5 lb battery pack that has same capacity of the original, but can be hacked to do so.

B) the bike with a battery pack that weighs 7 lbs like the original, but has 2x the capacity and benefits from much longer cycle lifetime due to shallower discharge rates.

C) the bike that makes the battery pack more compact, but has the same capacity and cycle lifetime, repackaged into a sleeker design that looks more like a normal mtb, but weighs the same as the original since they specifically targeted the same price point despite using a propriety battery that had to be made safe from impact damage.

D) the bike that took advantage of the new battery tech to reposition a lot of the weight to be low and centered by using a proprietary battery pack that wraps around the motor cabinet, which greatly improved the bike's handling. It's touted to handle way better than all the other options, carrying its weight extremely well and being more flickable, on top of feeling more stable. It jumps, drops, schralps, and is basically made to self shuttle up to the top of bike park runs, where you perhaps would leave spare batteries in the car parked at the bottom. It weighs the same as the original since they invested in a proprietary battery pack and cut corners on the frame cost.

Basically, these are all single factors being changed, with all else basically staying the same, in keeping up with the original argument's theme.

B and D sound more interesting to me, personally. I'm imagining the versatility of playing with the range of carrying a spare 2x capacity battery, as well as having one in the bike. Can be more liberal using the higher power modes on epic rides. Boost on 250W motors is already super powerful, so I don't see the point in a 350W rated motor. People wanting a smaller. It extends one of the biggest selling points I see in an ebike, over a regular bike. I'm also imagining an emtb that handles well enough that it diminishes the urge to keep a normal bike around. I doubt simply being lighter does the same, considering there are other compromises like the motor forcing the bike to have a longer chainstay. The longer CS messes with the weight distro, and fixing it with battery placement sounds like a more promising solution to the ebike handling problem. Nico Vouilloz has been working on this issue, and introduced the Lapierre Overvolt GLP II last year.


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## JillRide45 (Dec 11, 2015)

Flyer said:


> All things being equal or similar, I'd always take the significantly lighter bike if given the choice. Lighter bikes handle better. I prefer my Yeti in every situation- especially fast downhills and technical sections. So if one had a motor and battery that weighed 5 lbs less, I'd take that.


I have a Stumpjumper and a Levo SL, almost exactly the same geometry. The 2 bikes have the same forks, wheels, tires, and components. The SL weighs 9 lbs more than the Stumpjumper. I would take the SL over the Stumpy any day and I am a 115 lb girl that can climb. But we are talking about a Stumpy (26 lbs) and an SL (35 lbs) so maybe at these weight the extra weight is not so bad.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Lighter bikes handle better. You also missed the caveat- *all else being similar or the same*. I am not weigh weenieing one over the other. That may make the light bike way too flexy. That is why a 2-3 lbs lighter bike on the same build (an alloy or a carbon frame of the same model) with lighter carbon wheels and same tires and components, will almost always feel better and ride better and climb better. if you mess with all the variables, it is a different story.

In my 20+ years of riding, that has been my experience...road, gravel, fatbike, MTB, and I have probably owned 35-40 bikes from Turners to Ventana to Yetis to Pivots to Titus to Lenz to brands I forgot in the MTB world. Same with road, gravel, Fat....I ride them all. That has been my experience and the experience of pretty much everyone I have ridden with over the past two decades.

Take my Shuttle and give it a motor and battery 5 lbs lighter 2 years down the road and it will be a better bike and a much better handling bike. Weight weenie it by going with skinny tires and components and it will not be as much fun. The trend will be towards increased capacity and smaller weight and volume. We are talking about HANDLING here...not buying decisions for the masses based on just one variable.



Varaxis said:


> I don't like this kind of argument. I feel that it's too unrealistic and dumbs down the discussion. Also seems pointless, as all it does is tell the world about you.
> 
> I'll play along though. Lets say there was some hypothetical tech that could fit 2x the charge into a lithium battery. Would you still stick to your choice?
> 
> ...


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

How do you know that in tri years motors and batteries will be a lot lighter?

People have been making electric motors for a very long time. Same with batteries.
I doubt you will see a big improvement anytime soon.

And anyway, why wait two years, when you can buy a very capable bike now and enjoy it?

Sure you can go faster on a lighter bike, do what?
My haibike is 50 lbs, 180 travel front and rear and i go faster downhill than on a lighter, less travel bike.

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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Flyer said:


> Lighter bikes handle better. You also missed the caveat- *all else being similar or the same*. I am not weigh weenieing one over the other. That may make the light bike way too flexy. That is why a 2-3 lbs lighter bike on the same build (an alloy or a carbon frame of the same model) with lighter carbon wheels and same tires and components, will almost always feel better and ride better and climb better. if you mess with all the variables, it is a different story.
> 
> In my 20+ years of riding, that has been my experience...road, gravel, fatbike, MTB, and I have probably owned 35-40 bikes from Turners to Ventana to Yetis to Pivots to Titus to Lenz to brands I forgot in the MTB world. Same with road, gravel, Fat....I ride them all. That has been my experience and the experience of pretty much everyone I have ridden with over the past two decades.
> 
> Take my Shuttle and give it a motor and battery 5 lbs lighter 2 years down the road and it will be a better bike and a much better handling bike. Weight weenie it by going with skinny tires and components and it will not be as much fun. The trend will be towards increased capacity and smaller weight and volume. We are talking about HANDLING here...not buying decisions for the masses based on just one variable.


Here are some links to show how handling improves due to weight distro:

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-ride-lapierres-overvolt-glp-2-is-a-different-kind-of-breed.html

The text is even conveniently highlighted for you:

https://www.mbr.co.uk/reviews/elect...n with the increased,the battery in the bike.

You claim better handling due to lower weight, but these articles claim that handling is improved by rearranging where the weight is, so much that it's revolutionary. Shimano's patented next gen motor is going in this direction too (patent pics attached). This patent shows what could be coming in the next 2-3 years. Lithium sulfur was the promising tech featured in an article on this site not too long ago (I doubt it'll be applied to ebikes in 2 years). Only upcoming motor tech that I can think of that doesn't compromise to meet lower weight is the "Hunstable Electric Turbine" motor (which saves weight by ditching the transmission, probably 5-10 years out). There's already options to go lightweight like from Fazua, besides the Levo SL. The Levo SL's handling characteristics are credited to its short CS too, not just its lower weight.

P.S. arguing from personal experience is a logical fallacy called the anecdotal fallacy. Anecdote is said to be the weakest form of evidence. Weight and handling might be tied together in your small world, but the rest of the world...


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Well, I alreadyhave a Pivot Shuttle and a Specialized Creo road/gravel bike, so I'm set and not exactly waiting. I'm pretty sure the lighter and more capacity/power is the intent. The new Shimano motor is lighter and smaller. Battery tech will likely keep advancing now that e-bike demand has blown the roof off. The Specialized Levo SL is at least a start and they are selling well. I'd happily sell my 45-46 lb Levo for a 35 lb one, as an example. Buy one now and buy a nicer one in a couple of years....or not. I will.


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