# Trail being hijacked / changed by other



## newtrailhead (Feb 21, 2010)

I have a small local set of trails - about 3 or 4 miles worth of flowy single track on some public land that I have developed over the past 2 years.

Early in fall a "friend" contacted me to ask me the following.

"Do you feel ownership of the trail you built in XXX? I found some terrain there that would make a great extension and would eliminate that offcamber hard right turn before you head into the open grass area... If you feel protective of it I'll leave it alone but if you don't mind I might do some building there to make it a little longer...
Your thoughts?"

My response was the following - "I do feel an obvious connection or responsibility to the trails I have cut, but if others want to create more, that's fine, it's not my land. "Joe" (name of another local trail builder) started cutting some trails in there a month or so ago. Along the creek on the south end, bridges, a jump, and a loop in what is a swamp in spring (and all last summer). Not sure they will last.

If you are thinking about the far North end of the trail, that field floods a little bit in the spring (at least when the water gets really high like the last 2 springs). You may be able to follow that ridge for a little bit, maybe 100 meters or so, but I think it drops to a lower elevation, so it might be prone to annual flooding. You have a GPS though, so you should be able to figure all that out. Have fun!"

His next reply "Hey K, I saw the bit that "Joe" had done, I didn't think that was your work, LOL
I just want to respect the effort you put in to the trail. You did a lot of work and showed considerable initiative and I didn't want to trample on that. (pun partially intended) The corner I'm thinking of is a tough one, it's off camber away from the turn and if nothing else, some berming would allow for more speed carried through it..."


So based on that email conversation, I was under the assumption that he was going to create a new cut & possibly create a berm in one corner. I have no problem with others creating new trails.

What he ended up doing was what I consider a complete hijack of the trails. He went and cut inside lines on 6 or 7 corners, he also add some twinning or basically alternate single track on 2 or 3 other sections (sections that are almost straight, but high speed and flowy). He added chris crossing trials with it, for maybe 20 feet (why?) He then also added 2 or 3 new short sections of trail in areas that are under water each spring and ironically, created some VERY tight corners right after downhills in his new sections that he connected into my existing trails. The corner he originally said was going to berm, was now under a huge pile of trees and branches. He closed off a couple sections of the existing trails, to route riders to his trails. He also closed off some of my corners to route riders through his cuts.

When I found out what he had done (my wife found him making all these additional changes) I sent him the following message. "Hey XXX, so (my wife) tells me you are making short cuts in corners or changing corners? When you inquired earlier you mentioned an "extension". Changing corners and the flow of a trail is not the same as an extension or adding a couple of berms... Sounds a little more "radical" than what I was expecting."

His reply was the following - "You had some corners that were about 90 degrees and forced a rider to scrub all the speed they had. I made them flowy and so you could carry your speed through them. It went from mostly flowy to completely flowy.

I dont consider that radical, I consider making a good trail better."

In interest of making this post a little shorter, I will stop with the messages that went back and forth, but basically his tune totally changed from here, saying he did NOT come asking permission, that the corners in question were too sharp, too much speed was lost. 

The next day we met at the trails to see what he had done. 

It was a night mare come true. Some of the changes made no sense at all, some of his changes were obviously JUST for change sake. We obviously had a huge disagreement & some yelling. But he was NOT going to back down & we tried to "make up", but he would NOT allow me close off his inside cuts on corners or touch any of his changes. I did remove the dead fall / closures he added. The outcome from that day was that he wants us to "Let riders decide", to leave all his inside cuts there. Well obviously some riders are going to take the shorter lines through a corner....

Anyway, I ended it with asking him to NEVER change any trails I have created again, and told him that I felt he came basically asking permission to make an extension, but did another/WAY MORE (basically lying). He said he was NOT asking my permission, that I should be flattered, that he took a good trail and made it better. I asked him to look at it from my point of view, if he had done 2 years of work and I came and in to make changes while saying I was doing something else. He said that would be totally OK, that that is how it is done everywhere. I then told him he needs to create his own trails, not touch others.

So, about a week later, he starts cutting a new section of trail in an area I originally told him gets swampy and floods each spring. 

I am totally fine with the new trails he created, as I am fine with the trails created by another trail builder (Joe) earlier in the long winded story.


So, this is still bugging me after about 2 months. I hate the fact there are 2 lines in most of the best sections of the trail. For what it is worth, the original corners seem to be getting used more than his alternate cuts. I have also been getting questions from other riders why there are two lines in some corners?

I feel that if I close off his inside cuts, he will end up closing off my of my trail or go back to making more changes just to be a jerk. 

But I would like to make some resolution with the situation, so I can actually enjoy riding through the place again. 

So here are my questions (finally). 
Should I still be worked up about this? Or just let there by the additional lines? Should I try to resolve each corner with this guy, that we choose one or the other and then close off the other? (Maybe flip a coin). Or should I try to get some other local riders/peers involved to confront him, to let him know it's not OK? 

Or am I completely wrong & what he did was OK?

If anyone else has ever had a similar situation, please pass along any advice. (Sorry for the long thread.)


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## Visicypher (Aug 5, 2004)

First Question:

Do you have permission for the land owner to build trails?


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## newtrailhead (Feb 21, 2010)

Yes. Public land, I asked, contact at the city said ok, but there is no record other than a phone call. They had a very informal list of don't (no stunts, no cutting mature trees, keep it "low key" and low impact was his way of putting it).


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

You're in the right. Not sure if you have any recourse though with the current arrangement you have with your land manager.

IF you have someone altering lines without true permission from the original builder he certainly doesn't have any with the land manager either.

You have a Wild West situation.

My suggestion get something more than a handshake agreement worked out with the land manager. Work on the maintenance end of things.

Mt. biking has it's own unique problem that i don't think other user-groups have dealt with. In how a trail is built can drastically change from the original character with very little alteration to the untrained eye. 

Since mt. biking has evolved with what people call "Wildcat" building, "Grey" trail building, whatever you want to call it. It's sustained and enabled mt. biking to continue as a viable recreation/sport in the wake of often limited to non-existent public opportunity.

There is a right for an original builder to have a say obviously, ideally you would have the public have the opportunity to have input into the trail build before the original builder get's there.

But at some point in time there has to be set structure. If not then there is nothing to prevent anybody changing not only your lines, but your "friends" new lines as well.


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## Visicypher (Aug 5, 2004)

I would contact the land manager (LM), and clarify the new work is not yours. I recommend this to cover your personal liability. I would then enter into a formal, document, signed agreement with the LM.

And yes, I would have a problem with it because of the conversations had with the LM. You are kinda on the hook for it because you are the most visible (at least in the eyes of the LM). Sooooo....sort out you relationship with the LM first, then approach your "friend" and see if he would be willing to build (or reconstruct) based on the parameters/criteria of the LM.

Good luck, 

Al


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## bweide (Dec 27, 2004)

You might want to make your lines more likely to be ridden and his lines less likely to be ridden but do it without closing his trails. Make your line the one the riders eye is drawn to and they won't even see the alternative line. You can do this by making your trail more attractive (nice looking line, fun obstacle, berms, etc). Oddly enough you can also do this by making the riders eye concentrate on a possible obstacle on your trail that they will need to negotiate (pinch point, large flat rock in tread). They will be so focused on the obstacle they may not even see the alternative. It is also possible to obscure the entrance to his trail in a way that it is visible too late for a speeding rider to take it. It will still be obvious to slow riders or walkers but not obvious to most riders. You can also give mother nature a nudge in reclaiming his trails by adding leaves in the fall or helping bushes grow in the direction of the trail. In particular any sorts of spiny/thorny vegetation that can be encouraged to grow/fall in the trail will have a trail closure impact far out of proportion to their actual obstruction of the trail.


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

> So here are my questions (finally).
> Should I still be worked up about this? Or just let there by the additional lines? Should I try to resolve each corner with this guy, that we choose one or the other and then close off the other? (Maybe flip a coin). Or should I try to get some other local riders/peers involved to confront him, to let him know it's not OK?
> 
> Or am I completely wrong & what he did was OK?


Not enough information. Plus, he isn't here to make a counter argument. You never said how much experience you have in trail design and construction. What if the other guy has more experience and skill than you. I know I don't like tight off-camber turns either. And where is it written you have to ask permission to fix a problem on a trail? I've designed and built plenty of trails that riders made adjustments to.

I can hardly believe there is a land manager who allows people to build trails on pubic lands by virture of making a phone call and asking. If so, anything goes, which seems to be exactly what has happened. I think it might be time to hire a more professional land manager.

It does sound like the other guy did a lot of trail work. How did he get so much work done without you seeing the work in progress? Why would you tell someone they could do work on a trail? Are you a part-time land manager? If you knew he was going to do trail work, why didn't you go meet him and discuss the details of the work, or at least make daily visits to the work site to check on the work. With all the options available to you, you chose this forum. If the majority of people here tell you to forget about the whole thing, do you plan to forget about the whole thing? I'm of the belief you don't benefit from people who want to pat you on the back and tell you everything you did was right, and who knows, maybe you did everything right. But trail riders should be the final judge. Leave what they prefer to ride alone and close the stuff they don't like to ride.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

But hey!
Kudos to the OP for a great topic that was; well written, interesting and a 'real-world' MTB delema.
NTH, you deserve a beer, but it wont fit in my 'inter-tube port', so I will click on the golden thumb under your profile :thumbsup:


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## ray.vermette (Jul 16, 2008)

It sounds like you are in the right, but we are only getting one side of the story. Why don't you post some pictures of your lines and his changes so we get a better idea of what's going on?

I agree with the others -- you should pursue a written agreement with the LM. It's just the right thing to do, even if you weren't faced with the current situation.

Longer term, some of the alternate or original lines should probably be closed. This type of trail braiding/webbing could jeopardize your access to the land if the LO/LM/environmentalists/anti-bike crowd get wind of it. It's just not good sustainable trail practice to have lots of short alternate lines for no reason other than one being slightly more flowy than the other.

When it comes time to close some lines, get the other guy involved, get him to agree that the trail braiding needs to be addressed, and enlist the help of some neutral trail builders to decide what stays and what goes. 

On the other hand, if your lines are superior to his and getting way more use as you wrote, perhaps vegetation growth will reclaim his lines and the problem will take care of itself in time.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

A city just let you build a trail system on it's land on one phone call with no on the ground oversight? What city is this? 

Regardless, this should be dealt with by whoever the land manager is. If it's on public land it's not "your" trail it's the public's.


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## OK_MTBer (Sep 28, 2011)

See if any of his changes are against IMBA standards, if so...then you can bring him IMBA documentation and include this with your "low key, low impact" LM verbal statement. That could possibly give you some leverage for debate.

I agree with an earlier post. Put some pictures up of your stuff and the other guys changes so we can really give a better opinion. Good post though! Looking forward to following this.


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## newtrailhead (Feb 21, 2010)

I have several years experience, have developed probably about 5 miles of single track but I don't really see how experience matters (the other party does not have any major trail building experience that I am aware of). Experience also does not mean much as the two most experienced local builders make terrible trails, one make them SUPER tight the other uses a QUAD and mower and goes straight up and down fall lines and then puts tight turns at the bottom.

I am certainly going to contact the land manager again, try to get something more official initiated. 

I am NOT interested in getting the other party involved online here, cause the entire situation has basically developed due to dishonesty on his part. Said he would do one thing, did another (I believe that is lying right?) So I don't see how we could possibly get anywhere due to this. It would just be word against word and since none of you know either of us, how do you judge? Who is telling the truth? I have tried to give enough back story on the communication he initiated for you all to judge.


I will try to take some photos next week and post them. Like I mentioned, he has cut inside lines to shorten the trail and make a corner easier. He feels he is adding flow, but the trail flows very well as is. Some of the corners are tighter corners yes, I understand that. The irony is some new trails he has but are just as tight or tighter corners after downhills (going straight down the fall line). So to me that suggest he does not really care, that he is maybe just trying cause some trouble.

I am basically more concerned with how to rectify the situation than what he did & to prevent it from becoming a "web" of trials. If he had been honest, and wanted to voice his concerns and make some suggestions, there would be no situation right now. I am a reasonable person, I am not afraid of change. But someone lying and taking things way beyond what is reasonable, that is hard to understand. 

The only real option seems to be to contact the land manager and go from there. 

Thanks for the feedback.


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

newtrailhead said:


> But someone lying and taking things way beyond what is reasonable, that is hard to understand.


It sure is, people are weird.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I hate it when people straighten out trails.

Personally I like trails without flow, the trails I build don't have flow, I build them that way on purpose. Unfortunately not everybody feels the same. I fight a constant battle with people straightening out sections which I made slow and tight on purpose.

When someone straightens out a trail, I close off the new line and leave a polite note saying that if they want a straight and fast trail, build one, don't change mine. Some times I have to close a section off multiple times but in the end I always get my way.

Really though part of building a trail is maintaining it. Part of maintenance is stopping the trail from becoming a web of trails. You need to go close off the sections of trail that don't fit your idea of the trail. If you are persistent enough the other party will eventually give up.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

Too many cooks spoil the broth......


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

LMN said:


> I hate it when people straighten out trails.
> 
> Personally I like trails without flow, the trails I build don't have flow, I build them that way on purpose. Unfortunately not everybody feels the same. I fight a constant battle with people straightening out sections which I made slow and tight on purpose.
> 
> ...


I agree,but to a point ...and I don't know if you declared this previously. Making EVERYTHING slow and tech or all fast flowey is mot an ideal ntb trail. - n\ya know, mix it up :thumbsup:


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

highdelll said:


> I agree,but to a point ...and I don't know if you declared this previously. Making EVERYTHING slow and tech or all fast flowey is mot an ideal ntb trail. - n\ya know, mix it up :thumbsup:


True, but I don't always strive for the idea mtb trail. There is no shortage of super smooth flowy trails being built nowadays. I like to build something different, a trail that requires you to concentrate and focus the whole time. A really good rider can still find flow on my trails, but it takes a high degree of skill to do so.

In my area there is four of us building trails. Each builder has a different style and that make for a cool variety of trails.


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## ak_cowboy (Nov 17, 2008)

I wouldn't completly close off his trails, but like someone else said, just make yours more attractive. Then get some local grass/flower/etc seed and cover his trails to "help" nature reclaim it.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

LMN said:


> True, but I don't always strive for the idea mtb trail. There is no shortage of super smooth flowy trails being built nowadays. I like to build something different, a trail that requires you to concentrate and focus the whole time. A really good rider can still find flow on my trails, but it takes a high degree of skill to do so.
> 
> In my area there is four of us building trails. Each builder has a different style and that make for a cool variety of trails.


Also, to clairfy position... I think that all-tech and all-flow trails have their place.
The rub is when there is not a trail that features BOTH in a given area.

Maybe, possibly, don't shoot me! - the other guy was trying something (could be poorly done - IDK - no pics yet) that kinda fits my sentiment. I.e making some parts of your trail with more flowey options? You know - for variety.
I don't think he was 'in-bounds' to do any blocking of existing trail.

Personally, I LIKE trails that have options - why wouldnt you? The Ideal situation if you two can agree, is to keep your 'all-tech' line and for him to make an 'all-flow' route that encompasses the same loop/trail. That way, any rider can mix and match it up. Theoretically, if done right, you could have '1' trail that can be ridden 10s of ways - maybe 100s. :thumbsup:


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Locally for me, there are several trails.

One trail in particular was cut in the late 90's. The trail was on land with permission to cut. The trail was a very narrow twisty trail. This was trail that would school experienced riders, but did have alternate lines for those that were not able to ride the difficult lines.

The trail saw very little use as other local trails existed, which were cut by the same person some 10 years prior.

As trails were closed due to development, the short red headed step child, started to see more use.

Today, the trail is a joke. Riders talk about how difficult the trail is. If the original trail was a 10, we probably have a 2 or 3 currently.

Much of this was accomplished with unapproved modifications, ultimately a result of burst egos from riders that could not ride the difficult sections and secondly from riders that wanted to appear fast when comparing a "lap time".

After not riding the trail for at least 6 months, we rode there yesterday. What was a great natural featured trail with absolutely no man made obstacles, stunts or whatever you prefer to call them, has become a trail littered with man made this or that a poor attempt to build portions into a dirt jump / pump track. The explained reason for these changes are the trail is not technical enough. So now these sections are often focal points where riders just hang out and ride the several hundred feet of trail once, rest, ride it again, rest and do this for a while. They may do one complete lap, possibly 2 ( 6 miles of easy riding)

Other sections have had every root or tree removed that forced you to stand or navigate. These sections now are easily ridden 2 gears taller. This was done in the name of gaining flow in sections. Ironically the fast riders had the skills to take an entire section like this at speed, and with good rider skills and knowing how to pick good lines, could ride the sections at similar speeds to how it lives now.

What does it mean and where is it going. First off, fast riders with skills are still fast regardless of trails. Those that must have this fast flowy description often are to intimidated by natural technical features, basically they merely follow their front tire and not look ahead.

The real downside to all this, being that trail builders with 20 years experience in building quality technical trails that are sustainable in all but the worst conditions, that know how to optimize natural features pretty much don't bother anymore. Myself included, we just let others make the changes or decide on what they need to do. We are still attending when time permits to accomplish trail maintenance. 

Your best bet is to build a new trail somewhere else, accomplish this legally. Enjoy it quietly, as in the less that know, the longer it will remain how you intended it to be.

In regards to your current trail, don't get all worked up. I often do though when I first see these changes and how easy the trail has become. Ride the trail as you built it, if you lead a group ride your sections. 

If you ever get the chance to ride with your "friend", I hope you are the faster rider. I say return the favor by parking him in some clever spot as I'm sure you know the trail well and intimately. Off cambers are a neat spot to run a person wide. Oops sorry about that.

BTW, this problem has lived and will thrive for a long time. Only real means to prevent it is private property and a fence.

PK


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

PMK said:


> One trail in particular was cut in the late 90's. The trail was on land with permission to cut. The trail was a very narrow twisty trail. This was trail that would school experienced riders, but did have alternate lines for those that were not able to ride the difficult lines.


There's a balance and i think if you have a group or club that has an agreement with the land manager versus just permission this should be the benefit. That the club and land manager will ensure the trail lead(s) creative control. But with that control the trail crew leader should always be looking to involve volunteers and work to include them along the way.

So sort of like i bantered on about in another thread about deciding and then protecting the theme of the trail. This should work to preserve the vision.

For in your instance you would say this trail is a single black diamond XC trail. Trail features are for challenging riders at low speed technical terrain. That's the theme of the trail, that's the intention. Any work to change or alter the trail without club/land manager permission is essentially vandalism.

If things have to be changed there should be a few steps along the way to get em changed. And it shouldn't go on any make believe honor code.

If we as a community don't work to get a handle on this stuff it's not good. There is a balance to this as well, as most builders build what they want to ride. Plain and simple, so if there is a trail system with 10 trails you should try to divvy up and categorize everything as it stands or it will be. And many times an overall area has a theme and that should be understood and respected as well.

Theme should be construed by not only creative vision, but what the reality is as well. What currently exists, and what could exist. Decisions that make the most sense and can be agreed upon would be the ideal.

All the best trail systems are going to have a bit of everything, but the primary builder intention can be preserved as it's described as a theme. And after agreed upon that theme is protected. And if there is need or reason to change the trail or even change course and change the theme then there really needs to be a way of going about it involving all parties.

Instead of stuff just changing.

This is what i understand we're trying to establish here.

We are leaving a world where trails built by mt. bikers are here, and are entering opportunities where we as a community have a stake in building bona-fide mt. bike specific trails.

As far as future trails we should be flexible to change, as new ideas or ideas taken from other sports enhance our own. But to be so flexible that it comes at the expense of other peoples hard work is wrong.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Unfortunately, many of these trail locations are not vast in size. The agreement with landmanagers is to build and maintain a trail that shares common sections while having difficult sections with beginer bypasses. 

The entire trail has never been nor will it ever be 100% for experienced riders.

The problems arise from the beginner or less experienced riders taking the technical sections and "dumbing down".

The problem has always existed and always will. 

The true sad part is, and this is often confirmed by the shop owners that also ride. With this new group of trail builders, the trails are less challenging, do not optimize natural features and are littered with diggings and construction debris in an effort to build these moderns trails.

As for the long time builders, overall they seldom get very involved if at all. When trails are closed, it's a known fact that a small group will then still be riding. Crappy way for it to be, but like illegal trail mods, this has also gone on for a long time, serious riders will still be riding while others are just complaining.

PK


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

I guess I'd be pissed, but facts are facts. The trail has been changed. 

Now you can decide to further modify what exists and bring more issues, or you can do what you have done so far and keep watching. Go out with this guy and check what happens over time. Go often enough that no-one else chips in their 2 builder's cents before time and riders' votes show you both the truth about the changes. Chances are in some places one line will be more popular, or drain better etc, and become favourite. In others both lines may be used equally. Let MTB be the judge and just look after what happens naturally now. I'm sure the LM will prefer that to an outbreak of wanton reconstruction. 

There's almost no chance that in the last 5 years, on terrain most people can ride, that someone is not going to have left XC riding and set their controls for the heart of AM. Put a shovel in their hands as well and "hand a monkey a machine gun"...........


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

PMK said:


> The problem has always existed and always will.


Just an observation. If you're resigned for it to just be that way, then it will be that way.

i'm not saying you have the absolute power and control to change the trend, but i do think if you actually had a functioning group of trail stewards, that word will get out, and the culture will change.

But in order to do that, and in order to preserve the trails YOU favor, you need to stop looking at the new style of trail build with a light disdain. Your criticism may have value if it was turned into feedback, and then the other people that build can learn from it.

Try to get everybody on the same page, and try to get some fundings secured for signage. Having the signs posted as well as a kiosk where you can post information etc.

i actually think if you put just a bit of energy into harnessing what's already existing, then just a bit of work to get people on the same page, that goes a long way into making things better.

A inclusive group focused on just trail stewardship, not trail ownership.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

RE: Giving permission on one thing then seeing everything changed.

We have this problem, our group works with the LM directly verbal and written communication on projects several times a month. We gave an individual permission to brush back trail and help clear deadfall. They have begun "helping" armor wet/muddy sections, unfortunately, their armor is crap. It ends up creating dams, which then causes even greater mud/wet issues, and will cost me a full TM day with volunteers to fix at this point.

I need to send this individual an email/give them a call to take them down a peg, they attended a basic/beginner trail school, but don't have the time working with our experienced crews to know how to do things correctly and don't listen too well/aren't trust worthy. I hate to thump someone who has enthusiasm to work, however I can't tolerate:
- crap work that people think is our organization's and reflects poorly on us
- taking time away from other projects to fix a major man made trail issue that could have been avoided

Feelin' your pain.


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

Skookum says the OP is "right".

Ripnparadise says "facts are facts"

What if the OP is not right? What if the facts are not the facts? This is an internet forum. Most internet forums are full of spotty information and half-truths. When asked for further information, the OP was quick to do two things that should have caused red lights to go off here. He slandered the alledged trail worker and he said he really didn't want to invite that person in on the discussion. Well, here are his own words;



> * I have several years experience,* have developed probably about 5 miles of single track* but I don't really see how experience matters (the other party does not have any major trail building experience that I am aware of).*
> 
> * Experience also does not mean much* as the two most experienced local builders make terrible trails, one make them SUPER tight the other uses a QUAD and mower and goes straight up and down fall lines and then puts tight turns at the bottom.
> 
> ...


Here's my take. I think the OP is from Canada. I guess in Canada, justice means you can slander another person and not allow them to defend themselves or face their accuser.

He has "several" years experience. That is purposely being vague. To me, that makes him a beginner in all areas of trail design and construction. What sort of land manager would give permission to someone to build trail without having met the person or putting it in writing, or running it past others he works with, or having an open meeting for locals to comment about proposed trail work? The story sound highly suapicious. We need the land mangers name and contact info so we can follow up on who this person is and what story the land manager puts out.

Saying experience has nothing to do with this discussion is absurd. Saying more experienced local builders are making bad trails might mean they too, are less experienced than they need to bo. Saying the other guy who altered his trail is also inexperienced to the best of his knowledge is not telling us much. The guy may have 20 years of experience and know much more about building good trail.

The biggest concern I had was when he stated he is NOT interested in getting the other party involved here online. That smells like he will get called out for bending the truth and not stating all the facts. He defends this by saying it would just be one mans word against another. That's not entirely true. We can make some phone calls to the land manager and can gather enough information that it should become clear who is telling the truth.

I remember running around a park in Sacramento years ago and witnessing a mother calling to her child to come across the street to her. As the child ran across the street, a car struck the child. I had the mother call 911 while I attended the child. I did not know just what to do as she struggled to breath and blood was coming from her mouth and nose. I held her for three minutes, until rescue vehicles arrived. They treated her and transported her to hospital, where she was pronounced dead. Police took statements from several witnesses. I thought it was odd, what they said. They said the elderly driver ran a stop sign and struck the little girl. I waited until the officer was free and I told her exactly what happened, what I saw, and the fact that the other two "witnesses" were not within a block of the scene and only showed up several minutes later. I further pointed to the young girls shoe, in the roadway. It marked the spot where the car struck her and knocked her right out of the little purple shoe. It was not near the stop sign at all and the elderly driver had been traveling at maybe 15mph.

My point, of course, is that for whatever reasons, people say things that are not allways reliable or truthful. You can't just tell them they are right and facts are facts. You have to dig deeper.


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

The Prodigal Son said:


> Skookum says the OP is "right".
> 
> Ripnparadise says "facts are facts"
> 
> ...


Dude eat yer Xanax before posting...

Seriously.


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## bweide (Dec 27, 2004)

The Prodigal Son
Based on the confrontational, almost abusive tone your posts on this thread, and some of your other recent Trail Building and Advocacy posts, it appears you are taking forum posting lessons from Traildoc.


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

bweide said:


> The Prodigal Son
> Based on the confrontational, almost abusive tone your posts on this thread, and some of your other recent Trail Building and Advocacy posts, it appears you are taking forum posting lessons from Traildoc.


I've had a chance to meet Trail Doc and a number of others who post on MTBR. The guy is ten times the person you could ever hope to become. Not because of what he says or how he says it, but because he has the most passion for our sport and for trail building than anyone on MTBR. It's quite interesting to see what people are like in person. One thing I see is that people say things online they cannot back up in person. Usually it is about a persons riding abilities. What they claim they can do is not what I see them do. People can claim to be trail builders, but you often find out they volunteered a couple times and have less then 10 hours of experience.

There was a thread recently, from a guy in Oklahoma, who asked people where they would move to in the southern states. He was tired of Oklahoma. I had a sense he was not much of a rider, based on his post and other information he gave out. Lot's of us gave him thoughtful ideas of places to move that had great mountain biking trails and weather. But the hunch was right. When pressed, he admitted riding was merely a hobby and would not facotr into his decision and that he would stay close to Oklahoma and ignore dozens of suggestions. It makes you wonder why he posted to begin with. Same as the person who posted this thread. When pressed, he exposed himself. Skookum was suckered and maybe you were too. That is very stereotypical of what is found on MTBR.

I am who I am. I don't come here looking to make friends. I don't waste my time posting something like your last post or Skookum's last post. It amazes me how many people feel the need to read a thread and then insult me because they think that I'm insulting others. Are we reliving your grade school experience, only this time you are at a safe distance and can tell that bully how you really think of him? Skookum and you are alike. He just had to post, saying if we do things in Arizona the way we say we do, he won't come and help us out. Isn't that cute?You're people with weak personalities, no matter what you type on this forum. And likewise, I am always going to the overbearing and suspicious type who in person or on the internet, is quick to get into someones face, and not back down. I don't appologized for that. And because of it, I have gotten more trails built, and restored, and maintained.


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

The Prodigal Son said:


> blah blah blah blah. Arizona is misunderstood.


You're bringing up a traumatic point from your memory to equate about an issue this guy brings up, questioning the validity of his statement.

News flash it's whacko.

Lots of times while giving opinions on these forums, i'm doing them only on the merit of the issue itself. Just like you say there's more than meets the eye in your world, perhaps there is more to this story too. But at a certain point a conversation can turn fruitless. .

i'm not really sorry about the Xanax statement, for it is kind of funny, but i really didn't want to post it, because while entertaining to a few, a back and forth is just not really going to benefit anyone.

As far as the rest of the content of what you raise, this is why i didn't want to address your other post in the other thread. Why? Because Arizona, you're all over the map. If i ever run into you in the funny farm we'll have to play Scrabble...


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## trailtrash (Jun 25, 2009)

The Prodigal Son said:


> Skookum says the OP is "right".
> 
> Ripnparadise says "facts are facts"
> 
> ...


Your opinion of Canadians is slander in itself showing your arrogance and ignorance.
You should think before you type as it makes you look like an idiot.
For all you know he may or may not be Canadian and most Canadians show more respect for other peoples opinions than what you have shown in your posts and stated actions in some of your posts


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## Crash&bern (Aug 23, 2011)

LMN said:


> True, but I don't always strive for the idea mtb trail. There is no shortage of super smooth flowy trails being built nowadays. I like to build something different, a trail that requires you to concentrate and focus the whole time. A really good rider can still find flow on my trails, but it takes a high degree of skill to do so.
> 
> In my area there is four of us building trails. Each builder has a different style and that make for a cool variety of trails.


I'd love to ride your trails !! 
Flow doesn't have to mean fast. A skilled rider going through a rock garden ( remember them?) has flow !!


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## Crash&bern (Aug 23, 2011)

Prodigal son , do you actually ride a bike or you just on this forum to " stir the pot" ??

I'm a Canadian & ride in the USA from east to west at least once or twice a year. Good trails & good people !!! Why don't you come up here for a ride & a beer ??
I'll take you on some tough tight rocky single track that would put a smile on the face of even a bitter person as yourself !!


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

I do ride. I ride a lot. Currently, I ride a Niner RIP 9 and a Salsa Dos Niner. My wife is on an older Niner RIP 9 and she also rides a Voodoo Aizan. But I also stir the pot.

I can no longer view the OP's profile. When I was able, it said he was from Manitoba. He was vague about everything else. I've ridden in Vancouver, Deep Cove, Whistler, Revelstoke, Banff. More beautiful than anywhere else I have ridden. The Canadian people were the kindest of any place I've ridden. 

There is an experiement in human behavior you can try and maybe see the world of internet personalities as I see them. 

First, you click on the windows logo on the lower lefthand corner of your computer screen. Then click on games. Then, if you have it, click on the game internet hearts. Then, when it opens, go to the upper left hand corner of the game screen and click on game to find skill level. Click on expert. It will help if you know how to play hearts.

Here is the experiment. Play the game until someone wins. That's all. But if one of the other players leaves before the game is finished, you have to start over with three new players. In some instances, the computer will inadvertently place a beginner player together with three experts, and the experts will leave and look for a new game with all experts. 

What you will experience is nothing short of astounding. If you were in a room with three strangers, the game would end in 8-10 hands. But when playing online with three anonymous people, it will take you a month or more to complete a single game. I've been playing for yearsd and I would say that for every 1000 games of hearts I start, I am able to complete 2-3. 

Why? because the other players leave once they fall behind. They call themselves experts, and must know that the first hand rarely has anything to do with who wins, yet the moment one player gets the queen of spades, he leaves the game and is replaced by a computer. That happens over 90% of the time. Then, all others leave because they don't want to play against a computer. I also play backgammon with other people online. The percentage of people who leave when they fall behind is almost as high as in hearts. 

It has to do with the anonymity of the internet. People can say just about anything and behave in a manner that they would not get away with in person. 

f-88 was once a popular forum on MTBR. It was called the shark tank. People were cruel and attacked each other constantly. Anything they found out about a person, they used to mock them. They used a lot of profanity and they violated most of MTBR's guidelines. They even attacked sponsors of MTBR. Some of the f-88ers were intelligent. Some were good riders. But they all got sucked into some bad behavior. Even the moderator of f-88 was a part of the action. Eventually, they got shut down. The moderator got banned. They missed the daily attacks so much, they started a new site. I think it is called f-88 me, or something like that. To run that site, they had to get enough people to join and donate thousands of dollars. And they did. It is a bit like fight club, with almost no rules. 

I can't explain some of the things said on MTBR, other than to suggest it is related to people wanting something from MTBR like entertainment or friendship or a place where others will believe what they say. It's an addiction to some. For me, since I travel a lot and want to ride the best trails in North America, I like to hear about trails in other places. Because I build trails, I like to see what other trail builders are doing. Because I ride at night, I view the nightriding forum. I ride a Niner and had trobles with my build, so I went to the Niner forum. I'm living in Northern Arizona, so I view and post on that forum. What I have found is most of the people I meet in person who post on MTBR are not very fit and not very skilled. Some are but most are not. It would seem that expert level riders don't need to socially interact on MTBR as much as the less skilled riders. It's sort of like the group who got picked last to play on a team in grade school. Those are the ones who spend a lot of time here, just like they are the ones who more often hire tour companies to take care of them while riding unfamiliar trails. I admit I have been hard on those types and that I have little in common with them. Sometimes I wish I had never spent my first couple years on MTBR interacting with the sharks on f-88. Between that and playing internet backgammon, I tend to believe most people are mentally weak and lose respect for them quickly.


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## Crash&bern (Aug 23, 2011)

Yea you're right ! This forum is full of weak minded unskilled and unfit people who don't measure up to your intellect and card playing skills !!
Tell me , is it hard to stay on the trail with your head planted firmly up your butt ??


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## cheezecake (Jul 16, 2011)

I was in a similar situation where a friend and I had found some old abandoned 10 year old trails (found OLD mountain dew with expiration of year 2000). So we started fixing them back up. After we got most of the short lines going again somebody came in a started to rebuild some of the big stuff that we had not gotten to yet. Like 12 foot after a big hill. then they started building a large wall ride on one of are trails. Although it did not harm the trail (it made it better. they knew what they were doing). We still left a note attached to there wall ride saying give us a call. They called stating "Hey were just looking for a good time mountain biking, we won't mess up your stuff if you don't mess up our's." We agreed and sometimes finish each others projects now.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

I'm addicted to MTBR - I like the entertainment - I thike some of the arguments and will raise my point if I feel I can back up what I say. I also like the funny stuff - I think that's where I'm appreciated - more than the arguments anyhow . I also like helping people solve their newbie mistakes - because, in my 33 years of riding a bicycle (mostly mountain), I have made most of them. I also like the stoke threads - pictures and videos and tales of stuff you wish you could do - either due to travel, time-off or just BALLS.

Then, I like posting up my stuff too...'Help me w/ this' or 'look what I came up with' - buth involve a community that serves my need to simply 'Talk Shop' w/ others. I have no 'clique' of bikers that I'm friends with - All of my friends are so varied in their interests - Ones a musician, ones a fisherman, ones a disc golfer...sure, many are down for a easy-loop, but none are really INTO it. I fix most of their bikes - change cables, adjust brakes...etc., why because they don't care...enough- And that's fine.

"Pro" riders don't hang out here (although there are a few and many that only hang with bikers) because they talk bikes ALL day - Every Day...

So what are we left with? Mostly
Unexperienced, Experienced, Fat, Fit, Smart, Dumb, Boasting, Reserved people that just want to talk about bikes - and the occasional hot chick (or man-meat for the ladies)
...ehh, what do I know anyhow... It's a friday and I'm gettin drunk with noone here but the internet - such a sad sap I am :thumbsup:


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