# PVD Winter MTB, What makes a PVD a PVD.



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Beating folks to the punch!

Direct mount front derailure:









Hollowtech II Bottom Bracket shell:









Custom IS Headtube:









Proprietary PVD designed dropouts:









Genisis style geometry:









Cable routing designed for durability, servicability, and performance:









Designed to fit perfect, ride great, go up well, and decend like magic! Made for Marin, CA.

https://pvdwiki.com/index.php?title=PVD_Winter_MTB


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## playpunk (Apr 1, 2005)

I love your mad scientist magic. Some sweet features on that bike. 

What makes your dropouts different from IF or Paragon?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I designed the IF dropouts for them back in 1999. They have been used on both Independent Fabrications and 'Phil Wood' frames. Paragon makes them. I get to buy them since I was the guy who came up with them.

Paragon is only 20 minutes from my house, so I get to see some of the really cool stuff mark does for manufacturers when I go in to by generic parts.

I can't wait 'till Sunday. I can then take the XT brakes off my DH bike and put them on this bike. The bike should ride awesome. The DH season ends this weekend and then I clean the DH bike up for a 2009 Saint group.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

I think you were beaten out a bit with the direct mount front derailleur, but nice looking frame nonetheless.


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

What makes it a winter bike? It doesn't seem to be specced for winter usage at all.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

MMcG said:


> I think you were beaten out a bit with the direct mount front derailleur, but nice looking frame nonetheless.


Who is doing custom frames using one? The only ones I've seen are massive production Tawanese or Chinese product. I haven't seen any USA bikes using this yet, custom or not.

BTW: I'll be doing an E2 headtube once I can get a fork.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Schmucker said:


> What makes it a winter bike? It doesn't seem to be specced for winter usage at all.


Quality parts throughout, but the drivetrain is cheap. SLX/105. That way it can be replaced in the spring when it's beat. Other than that, it's a new bike just in time for the trail riding season.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

What does the direct mount FD gain you? I've been looking at that since I saw them at NAHBS and can't see the advantage other than the cool factor. Still seems a bit porky for use on a 29er.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

pvd said:


> BTW: I'll be doing an E2 headtube once I can get a fork.


BTW: race ya! I've got one in the queue but it's a ways out.


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

Just thinking out loud here, but an E2 headtube and a HT2 bb shell look to be crying out for some sort of twin downtube design (to get that vertical compliance thing going on)?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Just thinking out loud here, but an E2 headtube and a HT2 bb shell look to be crying out for some sort of twin downtube design (to get that vertical compliance thing going on)?


Interesting.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

I didn't know we were excluded from including big names from this. But it just struck my mind that most, if not all of the new Specialized FS bikes went that route at least a year, if not,more ago with their new FSRs and Pitches and whatnot.

I'm sure there are other small custom builders doing it too though.....I mean there are so many people throughout the nation/world that are building frames that to claim exclusivity seems kinda crazy to me, but whatever floats your boat.



pvd said:


> Who is doing custom frames using one? The only ones I've seen are massive production Tawanese or Chinese product. I haven't seen any USA bikes using this yet, custom or not.
> 
> BTW: I'll be doing an E2 headtube once I can get a fork.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

I think that fd setup will take out a few seat tubes if/when the der, gets tweeked. Instead of the clamp spinning the tube will crater. 

Probably a good spot for a reinforcing band/ring of some type.

Nice bike.. sano angles.


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

Some pretty interesting details.
Thanks for sharing.


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## Smokebikes (Feb 2, 2008)

Mildly innovative..............but if you put a paired TT and a sleeve at the FD, then you are on to something.........very nice though.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

pvd said:


> Beating folks to the punch!
> ....
> Cable routing designed for durability, servicability, and performance:


OK, I don't get it. What am I missing here? Twin stops on the top tube and .... ?


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## J Ro (Jan 13, 2004)

"Who is doing custom frames using one? The only ones I've seen are massive production Tawanese or Chinese product. I haven't seen any USA bikes using this yet, custom or not."

Bill Grove was using them in the early 90's. I'm sure Rody can add more.









​


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

J Ro said:


> Bill Grove was them in the early 90's. I'm sure Rody can add more.


Or the Fisher Montares from around 1990 with the elevated stays.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

WTF is an E2 headtube?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

E2 setups have 1.5" lower cups and 1.125" upper cups with a steerer to match. It will be the standard for years to come for both carbon road forks and long travel suspension forks, probably everything.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

J Ro said:


> Bill Grove was them in the early 90's. I'm sure Rody can add more.


That's pretty cool!


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

I had not heard of it either but what is the advantage of using a smaller bearing up top?

I can see that you can use standard stems and hardware, is that all. What am I missing?

Dave B
Bohemian Bicycles


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Cool. I like the angles, but I want it in 29er or 650B instead.

What's the whole thing weigh?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

dbohemian said:


> I had not heard of it either but what is the advantage of using a smaller bearing up top?


It's not about the top bearing. A standard 1.125" top bearing and steerer is more than adequate for the loads and keeps the stem and top HS weight down.

It's about the fork crown.

By using a larger steerer (1.5") at the crown of the fork, it is easier for manufacturers to design carbon road forks that are low, stiff, wildly strong, light, and cheap. Single crown mountain forks can be made longer, stiffer, lighter and cheaper.

In both of these examples, the head tube also has more area to weld/bond complex 'down tubes' to. The entire systems weight is kept quite low because the top of the system is kept small since it doesn't need to be any bigger.

Simply put, a full 1.5" system is too heavy for most uses and a full 1.125" system makes certian setups very expensive/impossible to do.


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

pvd said:


> Who is doing custom frames using one? The only ones I've seen are massive production Tawanese or Chinese product. I haven't seen any USA bikes using this yet, custom or not.
> 
> BTW: I'll be doing an E2 headtube once I can get a fork.


the new Rocky Mountain hardtails come eqiped with direct mount just like yours. FYI


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

You know, I can see the advantages in something like BB30, but the 1.5/1.125 steerer thing.....for my realm of 'expertise' if I can call it that (xc/enduro) unless we see a run on one-piece carbon crown/steerers on 80-100mm forks, I can't see any advantage.


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> I can't see any advantage.


The head tube, if done right, can look like an upside down beer glass.

Result!


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

J Ro said:


> "Who is doing custom frames using one? The only ones I've seen are massive production Tawanese or Chinese product. I haven't seen any USA bikes using this yet, custom or not."
> 
> Bill Grove was them in the early 90's. I'm sure Rody can add more.
> 
> ...


More photos of this bike please!!


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Thylacine said:


> unless we see a run on one-piece carbon crown/steerers on 80-100mm forks, I can't see any advantage.


You will. You will.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

scooter916 said:


> the new Rocky Mountain hardtails come eqiped with direct mount just like yours. FYI


Which model is that?

Is it made in Asia or North America?


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## thesenator (Jul 26, 2007)

*frankly PVD...*

:thumbsup: it's a nice bike for certain, but where's the post-mount rear dropouts???? 

So the HT2 BB has pressed in bearings???


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

The newer style bandless fd system is not the same as the old one pictured.. not that it matters really.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

thesenator said:


> ...where's the post-mount rear dropouts????


Thanks. I've been thinking about that for years. I even modeled some prototypes a few years ago. I like that It would look clean and use the post mount stuff and be light, but I think that in practice it will be very difficult to eliminate the many problems involved. So, I haven't done any yet.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

MMcG said:


> More photos of this bike please!!


Is that a under-the-downtube waterbottle mount that doubles as a cable stop?

Yes, more pictures please.


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## weldo (Jul 21, 2008)

schweet onza pedals and 4130 crank arms


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

weldo said:


> schweet onza pedals and 4130 crank arms


I didn't even notice the

worst

pedals

ever!


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## J Ro (Jan 13, 2004)

MMcG said:


> More photos of this bike please!!


Here are a few more shots. I need to get better pics, the build has changed a few times it's now in full resto mode with period correct XT stuff. The Onza pedals are gone.



















​


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Pete,

The front derailleur used on the X frame was the Xt model with the adjustable band clamp.

To make a derailleur that would fit around the 1.5" seat tube, we removed the band clamp, milled an oval hole in the seat tube, and then carefully fed an aluminum insert with a female threaded hole down the seat tube with a piece of weld wire to give the derailleur something to thread into and pull against. 

The design allowed for minute adjustment fore and aft around the tube and about 5 millimeters of vertical movement. Much like the braze on you have used, you need to have the numbers solid before committing to the placement.

cheers,

rody


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## grawbass (Aug 23, 2004)

smudge said:


> I didn't even notice the
> 
> worst
> 
> ...


Yes they were bad, but Tioga Clipman pedals were worse, believe it or not.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

pvd said:


> Thanks. I've been thinking about that for years. I even modeled some prototypes a few years ago. I like that It would look clean and use the post mount stuff and be light, but I think that in practice it will be very difficult to eliminate the many problems involved. So, I haven't done any yet.


Curious, what problems are involved? I imagine they would be somewhat difficult to incorporate into a one piece dropout but they're not bad to do otherwise.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> You know, I can see the advantages in something like BB30, but the 1.5/1.125 steerer thing.....for my realm of 'expertise' if I can call it that (xc/enduro) unless we see a run on one-piece carbon crown/steerers on 80-100mm forks, I can't see any advantage.


I'd love to see the 1.5/1.125 steerer on a CX fork. Maybe if each of us calls EDGE every day until they agree to make one...While I'm wishing, how about some hydro brifters (hate that term) so those of us who live in soggy areas can run hydro discs with drop bars.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

I'd like to build myself some frames some day (after I own my own home).... I just wanted to say that the rear brake setup that smudge posted is b!tchin'.


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## Mr.P (Feb 8, 2005)

Me likey. Especially the BB. When you write winter bike, that BB seems key. N1!

When are we going to see that more common place? Outboard bearing systems seem like a hack. A clever hack... But a those bearings belong in a shell.

On the headset, are you running the cartridge bearings directly on the frame?

I like your thinking.

P


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

smudge said:


> Curious, what problems are involved? I imagine they would be somewhat difficult to incorporate into a one piece dropout but they're not bad to do otherwise.


For any brake caliper that doesn't mount via conical washers it's not too easy. It's tricky to get the post weld machining done so that the mount plane is parallel to the axle axis. I'm not really into designing tooling these days.

It also makes varying rotor diameters a bit more of a PITA. Rotor tuning is very important to offroad performance. I run 140mm rotors on all my trail bikes, doing a post mount for that is really going to limit what I can do when I go to a 160 or 180mm for special races like downievill.

I'm basically not up to it.


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

Hey Smudge,

Are those rear drops eccentric? That setup looks sweet.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

swift said:


> Hey Smudge,
> 
> Are those rear drops eccentric? That setup looks sweet.


Nope. Just Paragon Wright drops

http://www.paragonmachineworks.com/product_details.php?productId=332&categoryId=2


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

pvd said:


> For any brake caliper that doesn't mount via conical washers it's not too easy. It's tricky to get the post weld machining done so that the mount plane is parallel to the axle axis. I'm not really into designing tooling these days.


Agreed. I drafted a fixture for these things last year some time. As soon as I get a break I'll make the fixture that holds them while welding and then one to hold the frame by the dummy axle so it can be tuned up on the mill.



pvd said:


> It also makes varying rotor diameters a bit more of a PITA. Rotor tuning is very important to offroad performance. I run 140mm rotors on all my trail bikes, doing a post mount for that is really going to limit what I can do when I go to a 160 or 180mm for special races like downievill.
> 
> I'm basically not up to it.


I recall this discussion and understand what you're saying.


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## eMcK (Aug 22, 2007)

Personally I've found 140mm rotors to one of the things I WON'T run, even on realativly short east caost DH's I find them way to prone to overheating.


Maybe I'm just a wuss and use my brakes way too much 


Interesting fact: Magura does not sell 140mm rotors, in their testing they do not dissipate enough heat.

I'm down with the press in BB, maybe not so much on the front derailleur, although I am glad to see it traditional swing, not a fan of new style bottom swing stuff, way too prone to contamination. I like messing with alternative chainring sizes, probably much like PVD likes to change rotor sizes.


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## buildyourown (Dec 1, 2004)

140mm rotors? I can't even run 160s without cooking my brakes and I'm scrawny. I run 185s on my 25# Turner Burner.


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## thesenator (Jul 26, 2007)

*PVD - Newbie builder question...*

"BTW: I'll be doing an E2 headtube once I can get a fork."[/QUOTE]

You can build frames, why can't you build a fork??? It actually seems like it would be easier...


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Hey Buildyourown, nice blog. The bullets are slick. That's the same exact way I maintain miter phase... too easy.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

thesenator said:


> You can build frames, why can't you build a fork??? It actually seems like it would be easier...


Uh... You must be new. Everyone here knows that I build forks all the time and have a rather long history of doing so. Problem is that they are all ridgid/passive forks. I'm really not into wasting my time and money redeveloping an active 5-6" fork when plenty of great E2 forks will be available in the next year or so for just a few hundred dollars. Doing it for real, my friend, requires dollars and sence.


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## rustola (Jan 15, 2008)

pvd said:


> Doing it for real, my friend, requires dollars and sence.


not to mention good speling.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

No wonder why I work in a shop and not in publishing. I should have typed 'sense' not 
'sence'. My bad.


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## Kastnerd (Dec 19, 2007)

buildyourown said:


> 140mm rotors? I can't even run 160s without cooking my brakes and I'm scrawny. I run 185s on my 25# Turner Burner.


The rear brake should be used less then the front, so smaller should be fine.

Maybe a 140mm post mount with some risers to make is 160mm.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Just saw a pic of a turner with post mount rear from interbike.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2.../tech/shows/interbike08/interbike083/IMG_0422


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## racerdave (May 12, 2007)

I dig your bike... nice job building it.


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## rocwandrer (Oct 19, 2008)

Schmitty said:


> The newer style bandless fd system is not the same as the old one pictured.. not that it matters really.


so these are available as an off the shelf part, or are they just a standard FD with the clamp cut off? It would be awesome (for the application I am working on right now) to have the 2 ring saint FD as a post mount, so the chainline can be tuned (or the flip side of the same thing, the FD operation optimized) with spacers....


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## Peter E (Feb 16, 2004)

pvd said:


> Just saw a pic of a turner with post mount rear from interbike.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2.../tech/shows/interbike08/interbike083/IMG_0422


yes, saw a few other brands at Eurobike switching to post mount on their frames. Really like the turner solution with the replaceable threaded pieces.


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